# Wine Or Grape Juice Or Both?



## KMK (May 29, 2008)

What does your church serve with the Lord's Supper?

BTW, I am using the word 'wine' as it is used in the Bible. A drink that is made of grapes that has the potential for intoxication.


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## Poimen (May 29, 2008)

Both. I drink wine.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 29, 2008)

Both. Fermented Wine and Grape Juice for those whose conscious will not allow Fermented Wine (also for those with Alcoholic issues).


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## Gage Browning (May 29, 2008)

*Both*

We serve both: grape-juice for reasons of conscience or substance abuse issues and wine.

Wine in the middle of the tray- also a little different color...


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## yeutter (May 29, 2008)

My view would be, and this is the view of many Reformed leaning Anglicans, the Lord's supper with grape juice rather then wine would be valid but irregular.

Likewise theLord's supper with leavened bread rather then unleavened would be valid but irregular.

It would also be interesting to know how many congregations use a common cup and how many use individual cups.


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## Casey (May 29, 2008)

On the first Lord's Day morning of the month, we have both (wine and juice) in little cups and stay in our pews.

On the third Lord's Day evening of the month, we have one cup (wine) seated around a table.


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## Galatians220 (May 29, 2008)

yeutter said:


> It would also be interesting to know how many congregations use a common cup and how many use individual cups.


 
We use a common cup: another reason for me to abstain (per previous threads, which I've *no* desire at all to revisit). With pre-1992, transfusion-related hepatitis C and a moderate viral load that's gone into cirrhosis, I would be absolutely horrified if I passed this miserable malady along to anyone else.  Could happen.

The estimation now is that one out of every 70-80 people in this country now has hep. C. Something to think about. 

Margaret


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## R Harris (May 29, 2008)

CaseyBessette said:


> On the first Lord's Day morning of the month, we have both (wine and juice) in little cups and stay in our pews.
> 
> On the third Lord's Day evening of the month, we have one cup (wine) seated around a table.



Interesting. What is your reasoning for this alternation?

I think the evening method is the biblical one, but our church does not have the wherewithall to do it.

We also serve both wine and white grape juice, with the grape juice cups set in the interior of the server ring plate. Thus wine cups outnumber grape juice cups about 10 to 1.

The wine we use is a sweet wine that we have imported from Israel. I cannot think of the name of it, but it is a very good wine, not dry and palatable for pretty much everyone.


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## Casey (May 29, 2008)

R Harris said:


> Interesting. What is your reasoning for this alternation?
> 
> I think the evening method is the biblical one, but our church does not have the wherewithall to do it.


Unfortunately, the evening service has less people that attend, so practically, we are able to have the Supper with a single table. It really wouldn't be possible in the morning (it is a small chapel with little room for tables). A year or so ago the 3rd Lord's Day evening Supper was added while retaining the original practice for the 1st Lord's Day morning. It is a bit irregular to have two different practices, but at the moment I think it's the wisest choice for the congregation -- and it allows anyone who would like to partake in the Supper twice a month to do so.


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## KMK (May 29, 2008)

joshua said:


> Are there any records of what the old Reformed Churches may have done in case of those with sensitive conscience or possible physical malady restrictions?



Was there such a thing as a 'sensitive conscience' before prohibition?


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## sastark (May 29, 2008)

KMK said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Are there any records of what the old Reformed Churches may have done in case of those with sensitive conscience or possible physical malady restrictions?
> ...


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## AV1611 (May 29, 2008)

we use wine.


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## greenbaggins (May 29, 2008)

I'm not so sure that the sensitive conscience thing can be so easily settled. After all, drunkenness most certainly did exist before Prohibition. And someone's conscience might be very tender on a topic like that even before Prohibition. That is demonstrated by my own church. We are long after Prohibition, and most people in my church don't even know about it. It simply isn't a factor, except through some kind of remembered consciousness that is inter-generational. Nevertheless, one of the churches I serve is militantly against wine in communion because of drunkenness problems in the church. In fact, they are not even open to talking about the biblical position, and what Jesus did. Prohibition is not the main reason for it. The reason is that they want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Sometimes it is amazing to me how closed to the truth of the Word some people can be.

But, as AA itself says, if an alcoholic is strongly tempted to go back to alcoholism because of one thimble-full of wine, they were going to fall anyway.


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## BertMulder (May 29, 2008)

Wine only, in individual cups

As an interesting aside, in addition to common bread, we provide gluten free bread for the ones with celiacs disease amongst us...

So the similar accommodation argument could be used for an alternate to wine, it just has not come up, to my knowledge...


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## raekwon (May 29, 2008)

Wine and grape juice. Two separate goblets, one loaf, by intinction.

Until a couple of months ago, it was wine only. A few people approached us (the elders) with the "what if the wine causes an alcoholic to struggle" question and our answer was that when someone approached us with more than just a hypothetical "what if", then we'd introduce grape juice. Well, that finally happened, and the next week, the grape juice was there. It's funny, because after it was introduced, the split between those that partake in the wine and those that partake in the grape juice is unexpectedly about 50/50.


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## Herald (May 29, 2008)

We use grape juice only. I would like to switch to wine but it's a matter of incremental change in our church.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 29, 2008)

Intinction? Really?


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## KMK (May 29, 2008)

greenbaggins said:


> I'm not so sure that the sensitive conscience thing can be so easily settled. After all, drunkenness most certainly did exist before Prohibition. And someone's conscience might be very tender on a topic like that even before Prohibition. That is demonstrated by my own church. We are long after Prohibition, and most people in my church don't even know about it. It simply isn't a factor, except through some kind of remembered consciousness that is inter-generational. Nevertheless, one of the churches I serve is militantly against wine in communion because of drunkenness problems in the church. In fact, they are not even open to talking about the biblical position, and what Jesus did. Prohibition is not the main reason for it. The reason is that they want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Sometimes it is amazing to me how closed to the truth of the Word some people can be.
> 
> But, as AA itself says, if an alcoholic is strongly tempted to go back to alcoholism because of one thimble-full of wine, they were going to fall anyway.



The temperance movement brought us Dr. Welch. Dr. Welch brought us grape juice. If there had been no temperance movement there would be no grape juice. In that regard, the only reason people would insist on grape juice is because of the temperance movement. I don't think anyone began to object with 'sensitive consciences' until the existence of grape juice. I could be wrong, however.


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## raekwon (May 29, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Intinction? Really?



Yessir.


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## etexas (May 29, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Both. Fermented Wine and Grape Juice for those whose conscious will not allow Fermented Wine (also for those with Alcoholic issues).


Ditto. Wine for those who wish it, grape juice for those who might be recovering alcoholics and those with medical issues. I feel this to be a charitable and fair way, and thus none need decline the sacrament.


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## Calvin'scuz (May 29, 2008)

My church uses grape juice only; but I would drink wine if given the option.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (May 29, 2008)

Our church uses both. I take wine.


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## ReformedSinner (May 29, 2008)

I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)

Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.


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## sastark (May 29, 2008)

ReformedSinner said:


> I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)
> 
> Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.



Rev. Chen, if this is true, it still doesn't justify using grape juice, just watered down wine.


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## sastark (May 29, 2008)

Alright, who checked "other"? And what do you use if not wine or grape juice?


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## etexas (May 29, 2008)

sastark said:


> ReformedSinner said:
> 
> 
> > I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)
> ...


Rather than water down wine why not use wine and unfermented grape juice?


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## kvanlaan (May 29, 2008)

> The wine we use is a sweet wine that we have imported from Israel. I cannot think of the name of it, but it is a very good wine, not dry and palatable for pretty much everyone.



Manishevitz? Like grape juice but with a little sumpin' sumpin'.

We use grape juice and water (for diabetics) in the center of the tray. I can't even imagine suggesting wine...


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## jaybird0827 (May 29, 2008)

Wine and common cup.

Speaking of which, a minister who hailed from Scotland told us that it's best to serve a good strong port with a common cup, and not to wipe the rim of the cup with a cloth. He said that germs are not an issue because "that stuff (the port) will kill anything that would be likely to spread."


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## Presbyterian Deacon (May 29, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> We use grape juice and water (for diabetics) in the center of the tray. I can't even imagine suggesting wine...



*I can*. Alcohol actually reduces your glucose level. So wine is good for diabetics!

I think Paul knew that:

1 Tim. 5:23 
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.


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## moral necessity (May 29, 2008)

No disrespect to the notion that several scholars and historians think that wine was diluted in those former times, but, I just wish that some historian would come forth with evidence showing that the wine used then was actually 40 proof or something. I'd just like to see the contemporary church and society wrestle with that concept!


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## etexas (May 30, 2008)

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.


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## KMK (May 30, 2008)

ReformedSinner said:


> I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)
> 
> Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.



Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".



etexas said:


> Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.



Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.


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## Ivan (May 30, 2008)

A couple of votes were for "other". What "other" could there be?


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## Grymir (May 30, 2008)

My church uses grape juice, but I think it's wrong. It should be wine only. That was good enough for Paul and the apostles and it should be good enough for us. It's a modern way of watering down the gospel and getting the church to compromise with the world.


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## mvdm (May 30, 2008)

We serve both wine and grape juice, with it announced in the bulletin and from the pulpit that wine is in the outer tray circle, and grape juice in the inner circles. A member of our church {an expert winemaker} vints a special wine for the sacrament.


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## etexas (May 30, 2008)

KMK said:


> ReformedSinner said:
> 
> 
> > I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)
> ...


Does it matter?


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## etexas (May 30, 2008)

joshua said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...


I see no grounds for any objection to my Post. It was written in a calm thoughtful and sober manner. On what grounds are you objecting Josh? I sent a PM.


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## travis (May 30, 2008)

I chose the wine only on accident. My church does the small cups with wine and a ring of juice on the inside. I would say that maybe 5% of the church takes juice.


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## larryjf (May 30, 2008)

I have a question for those who use both wine and juice.

Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine? If not, why not simply use juice instead of wine for the conscience of those who don't drink wine?

Also, why not use non-alcoholic wine instead of juice?


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## etexas (May 30, 2008)

joshua said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > joshua said:
> ...


Hear that people! Josh said I have GOOD manners! I am going to run this off and frame it!


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## Grymir (May 30, 2008)

MOM! There's peace in the family again!! How am I going to look good when my brothers are getting along?


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## etexas (May 30, 2008)

Grymir said:


> MOM! There's peace in the family again!! How am I going to look good when my brothers are getting along?


Lets find a new member and pick on them (the PB Bullies) THAT should balance our universe out again!


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## etexas (May 31, 2008)

joshua said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...


Yes it is open to discussion. It is odd you singled me out, I gave a sober well reasoned answer. But, hey, Josh does not agree therefore I am wrong! Josh of course is never wrong. SECOND: Josh jumped down my throat about my post where I state "Does it matter?" HE READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT! When I said "Does it matter?" I was NOT speaking about the Sacraments! I was refusing to name names of those who did not agree with me! I was trying to keep t from dropping to a personal level. Josh, given that you took me out of context, and then said that I have nothing worthwhile to say, therefore say nothing. Honestly was singled out for this humiliation. Josh. I feel you should delete your Post on this and make an open apology to me. Pax


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## HaigLaw (May 31, 2008)

Gage Browning said:


> We serve both: grape-juice for reasons of conscience or substance abuse issues and wine.
> 
> Wine in the middle of the tray- also a little different color...



Our session tried that approach about a year ago, and some people threatened to leave over even having the option of drinking wine allowed to others, and so they relented and went back to grape-juice only.

I think the ones who threatened to leave over that have now found some other excuse to leave that we apparently didn't accommodate them fast enough on, so we are now, apparently, blessed by their absence. 

We have often stumbled over trying to keep the weaker brother from stumbling. But, of course, never became stumbling-drunk over it. 

Pardon me if I'm having too much fun with this.


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## HaigLaw (May 31, 2008)

When I posted my prior post at 9:56, I had not read the prior one of 9:26, and didn't realize people were getting offended.

So when I was , it wasn't over that. Sorry if I've added offense to offense.


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## larryjf (May 31, 2008)

larryjf said:


> I have a question for those who use both wine and juice.
> 
> Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine? If not, why not simply use juice instead of wine for the conscience of those who don't drink wine?
> 
> Also, why not use non-alcoholic wine instead of juice?



Related to my post above, aren't we all to partake of the "same" cup?


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## HaigLaw (May 31, 2008)

larryjf said:


> Related to my post above, aren't we all to partake of the "same" cup?



The last time I partook of communion in a "common-cup" service, a young person ahead of me in line sneezed just as he was about to drink.

The minister had a napkin he was wiping the cup with after every drink, but the napkin was not enough for the sneeze.

My conscience was overcome. I could not continue.


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## kvanlaan (May 31, 2008)

> I can. Alcohol actually reduces your glucose level. So wine is good for diabetics!



Believe me brother, I agree. I can't understand why on earth we don't have wine and juice, if there are those who get bent out of shape about the alcohol. But juice and water? I just don't get it. (It may be that the few diabetics are also alcoholics/teetotalers, not sure.)


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## kvanlaan (May 31, 2008)

> My conscience was overcome. I could not continue.


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## KMK (May 31, 2008)

etexas said:


> Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times.





etexas said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > etexas said:
> ...



If I may speak on behalf of Joshua, I think what he meant was, if you are going to accuse some of us of an apathetic attitude toward those, like yourself, who "have medical problems or other issues", then you better tell us who we are. 



> Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
> 
> Pro 27:5 Open rebuke [is] better than secret love.



It certainly was not my intention of hurting your feelings, brother.


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## Sonoftheday (May 31, 2008)

Most in my Church are Teetotalers so we use grape juice, though I would prefer wine. We are baptists though and as has been pointed out on other threads Baptists have weird ideas about alcohol.


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## servantofmosthigh (May 31, 2008)

KMK said:


> The temperance movement brought us Dr. Welch. Dr. Welch brought us grape juice. If there had been no temperance movement there would be no grape juice. In that regard, the only reason people would insist on grape juice is because of the temperance movement. I don't think anyone began to object with 'sensitive consciences' until the existence of grape juice. I could be wrong, however.



Only Welch's Grape Juice in our church and all Baptist churches I've been a member of for last 10 years. When I was PCA, they served both grape juice and red wine.

Anybody know why church's don't serve white wine? (At least, I haven't seen any.)


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## stjude (Jun 5, 2008)

Surely the colour is symbolic. 
We use grape juice, but it seems clear to me that it should be wine. I can't understand churches who serve both, I get the reasons not to use a common cup, but not a common drink?? The temperance movement sure has a lot to answer for. There may be medical reasons not to drink wine (although I have heard that the amount is too small for any concerns of this nature) but conscience? I'd love to hear that pause at the first Lord's Supper when Jesus hands round the wine and someone declines as they think their conscience is more honed that their Saviour's.
I read of one man in the late 19th century during an Irish debate on this issue who said, "If Christ used fermented wine, He could not be my Saviour"
Bummer for him.


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## Romans922 (Jun 5, 2008)

I liked this essay:
Providence PCA Mission Church - Bread and Wine


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## holyfool33 (Jun 21, 2008)

My Church uses Grape Juice in little plastic cups I would prefer that we use grape juice in a common chalice but I'm pretty much the only one that feels that way so it's probably not going to happen.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 21, 2008)

KMK said:


> ReformedSinner said:
> 
> 
> > I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)
> ...



Doubtless, E. Tx. was referring generally to discussions he's had here and probably elsewhere on the issue, not specifically this thread.


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## KMK (Jun 21, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > ReformedSinner said:
> ...



I see... Unfortunately, this seems to have been the last thread he participated in. 

Hey, etexas, I hope it was nothing I said! 



> Rom 14:5 Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


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## TimV (Jun 21, 2008)

> Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine?



Interesting argument. If water isn't available, can someone be baptised with mineral oil and not water? If unleavened bread isn't available, is there no blessing when offering sweet potato as those I lived with in New Guinea did?

Interesting question, but only academic, as wine is available to most all of us here (perhaps Perg is an exception).

Wine makes you happy. That's why it's served at feasts. Grape juice doesn't. Communion with wine is partially a foretaste of the bliss we'll have in our eternal state. The idea is a mild buzz, not little thimblefuls of grape juice or cheap wine.

Why not coffee and bagels? Or watermelon and beef jerky? Why not just do what is clearly stated without looking for technical loopholes?


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## Galatians220 (Jun 21, 2008)

E-TX's wife had been ill and I've been thinking about them... I pray that soon he'll let us know how Megan is doing... And chime back in here as well!

Margaret


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