# Women directing Worship Team



## Christusregnat (Jul 23, 2008)

Hello All,

I'm on a committee to study worship for our church, and wondered if anyone could provide biblical insight on the following situation:

We have a woman leading the "worship team" (pianist, flute, recorder, french horn). Her duties include choosing arrangements, organizing the schedule of players, and providing leadership to the musicians, one (at least) of which is a young man.

Also, we have a woman choosing the psalms and hymns.

My question is this. What, scripturally, ought to be the role of women in this situation? Should the pastor be choosing the hymns? Should the woman be directing and leading this team of musicians?

The only biblical example I can even find of such a situation would be that of "the *sons* of Levi", and so I wonder if this would be an appropriate role for women at all. 

Also, on our worship committee, the pastor told us to make sure our wives were "involved" in the meeting, even though the committee legally consists of an elder, a deacon, and myself. Is this biblical? My thought is that only the men ought to be involved in providing leadership to the congregation, but he seems to be indicating that the wives of these men ought to be (albeit unofficially) involved in this leadership.

Thoughts?


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## Davidius (Jul 23, 2008)

I am under the impression that women are merely prohibited from exercising the authority delegated to church officers.


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## calgal (Jul 23, 2008)

Does the worship team report directly to the worship committee?


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## Pergamum (Jul 23, 2008)

Does she have any sort of teaching authority or official leadership capacity in the church, or does she just play music?


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## Davidius (Jul 23, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Does she have any sort of teaching authority or official leadership capacity in the church, or does she just play music?



It sounds like she's just dealing with getting the music together, not teaching or exercising the other authority of church office (discipline, administration of sacraments, etc).


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## Pergamum (Jul 23, 2008)

yep, the church is safe from a feminist takeover I think.


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## Davidius (Jul 23, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> yep, the church is safe from a feminist takeover I think.


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## Romans922 (Jul 23, 2008)

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.


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## JBaldwin (Jul 23, 2008)

Let me share from my own experience, because I am the music director in my church. Being a woman who believes in male leadership in the church, I have struggled with this a lot over the years. I knew from the time I was a teenager that God was calling me to be a church musician of some sort, and everywhere I have been since then, God has placed me a position where I am involved in some music leadership role in the church, many times without seeking it. 

One thing that is absolutely clear in my mind is that a woman involved in this role must be under the direct authority of the pastor and elders. In many of the churches where I have served, I have not been allowed to choose any music other than the incidental music used in worship. In other churches, I have worked side by side with the pastor. He chose some of the music, I chose some of the music. Where I am currently serving, I choose all the music, but I always send the music to the pastor before any final decisions are made. 

I take this responsibility very seriously, and I don't think that just being a good musician qualifies a woman (or even a man) for the role of music director. In addition to being a trained church musician, I am well-trained in the Scriptures, my pastor and elders know my doctrinal position and know that I am serious about making sure that everything that we sing in church is theologically and musically sound. The day I stopped being careful about what we sing would be the day they would ask me to step down. 

In short, I don't believe that it is wrong for a woman to be a music leader in the church, but it is rare to find one who is called to that mininstry. I believe leadership should be open to women in that role and be willing to work with them. In many places I have been, I have been made to feel that I was out of place or trying to ursurp authority in spite of the fact that all I wanted to do was use the gifts God gave me under property leadership. I am very thankful for the church leadership I have now. They work with me, and I find it very easy to submit to their leadership.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 23, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.


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## Pergamum (Jul 23, 2008)

If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.

I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.


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## Romans922 (Jul 23, 2008)

Wouldn't the piano player just be aiding the worship not leading? An elder is the one who should be leading worship (i.e. leading the congregation).



Pergamum said:


> If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.
> 
> I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.


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## matt01 (Jul 23, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.




 Why can't the elders pick out the music, and make the arrangements? She could then be responsible to the elders for playing the music and helping to organize the other musicians. Or you could just get rid of the whole music team.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 23, 2008)

sans nom said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.
> ...



That would not be a bad idea.


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## mvdm (Jul 23, 2008)

I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung. The pianist could choose the unsung offeratory, prelude, and postlude, but even there, the elders should be listening carefull to what song is being played. For example, if the pianist starts plunking out the tune of "In the Garden", an elder should gently counsel her after about the song selection.

As for worship teams, I always thought they were called elders.


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## matt01 (Jul 23, 2008)

mvdm said:


> ...we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.
> 
> The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung.



My wife used to play piano for a PCA church that we were attending, and this is how it was done. She selected the music that was not sung, atmosphere/preparation music, everything else was selected by the TE.


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## Pergamum (Jul 23, 2008)

If all songs are sung out of the Trinity hymnal I don't see it as lax if an elder does not micromanage the song leader over EVERY song.


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## CDM (Jul 23, 2008)

mvdm said:


> I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.
> 
> The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung. The pianist could choose the unsung offeratory, prelude, and postlude, but even there, the elders should be listening carefull to what song is being played. For example, if the pianist starts plunking out the tune of "In the Garden", an elder should gently counsel her after about the song selection.
> 
> As for worship teams, I always thought they were called elders.



The Reformed Confessions did a good job with keeping heresy out of the back door through music, too. See _The Directory for the Public Worship of God_ - Of Singing of Psalms.

Of Singing of Psalms.

IT is the duty of Christians to praise God publickly, by singing of psalms together in the congregation, and also privately in the family.

In singing of psalms, the voice is to be tunably and gravely ordered; but the chief care must be to sing with understanding, and with grace in the heart, making melody unto the Lord.

That the whole congregation may join herein, every one that can read is to have a psalm book; and all others, not disabled by age or otherwise, are to be exhorted to learn to read. But for the present, where many in the congregation cannot read, it is convenient that the minister, or some other fit person appointed by him and the other ruling officers, do read the psalm, line by line, before the singing thereof.​
In fact, this model _ guarantees _ no heresy be offered up in the guise of worship to God.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 23, 2008)

sans nom said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > ...we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.
> ...



The TE should be organizing the Worship so that the psalms/hymns point to and develop a coherent message that builds up to and is concurrent with the Sermon.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 23, 2008)

mangum said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.
> ...


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## matt01 (Jul 23, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> sans nom said:
> 
> 
> > mvdm said:
> ...



Exactly. This would eliminate many of the problems. I recall speaking with a lady who worked for a music school in southern California, and she was telling me how churches would call the school for musicians to play at their churches, everything from regular services to special theme services. Often musicians would be sent who were known drug users, or profaners, but they could provide wonderful music during the service. Too bad the churches didn’t consider them as part of the mission field.


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## ChristopherPaul (Jul 23, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.



I lean towards the view that yes women playing piano in church are leading the congregation in song. Her playing is what is followed to maintain correct tune. I don't think women should lead worship in this capacity, but then again, I also believe there should be no instruments at all (other than vocal chords) leading the congregation in song.


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## py3ak (Jul 23, 2008)

Wouldn't a more fundamental question be, "what justification is there for a worship team"? And then, "what justification is there for creating a certain mood"? And then, "what need is there for arrangements?"


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## uberkermit (Jul 23, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Wouldn't a more fundamental question be, "what justification is there for a worship team"? And then, "what justification is there for creating a certain mood"? And then, "what need is there for arrangements?"



Aside from the worship team, one could ask "What justification is there for a worship leader?" Given the importance that the worship leader is given in Western churches, one would think that it must be Biblical; Yet we see no mention of such an office in Romans 12 or 1 Corinthians 12 or Ephesians 4. Personally, I find this omission by the Apostle Paul to be significant.


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## staythecourse (Jul 23, 2008)

If we are able to use the OT as an example regarding which gender can lead another, the word has men leading men and women but women only leading women.

Miriam went out with the women (a woman leading women)
David told the men and women to praise the Lord (Man leading men and women)

In the NT we have
Jesus leading the men in singing. (Man leading Men)

Are there others I am missing? Are their examples of women leading men in the OT? The NT has none I am almost certain.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 23, 2008)

What if no man wants to/will lead?


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 23, 2008)

staythecourse said:


> If we are able to use the OT as an example regarding which gender can lead another, the word has men leading men and women but women only leading women.
> 
> Miriam went out with the women (a woman leading women)
> David told the men and women to praise the Lord (Man leading men and women)


these weren't formal worship services. There were more like spontaneous praise brought on by witnessing the immediate victory of God over the enemy. This is akin to what happens when Jesus healed the leaper and blind and told them not to tell anyone and they immediately went out an broadcasted it.


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## Christusregnat (Jul 23, 2008)

Hello All,

Quite a lively discussion to this point in time.

Thank you for all of your input!

I am a bit skeptic about the "worship team" idea, and this may come up in the committee.

Also, we are attempting to move toward more Psalms and more Scripture in church singing, but as it stands, there are often very sappy songs sung, and some that make me wonder. For example, some portray a very feminine feel (e.g. Jesus is my boyfriend), which I don't find in Scripture. No need to mention the church as Jesus' bride; I know that. But the air I breathe from Scripture seems to be much more... manly?

Anywho, I'm thankful for all of the thoughts, and am interested in more, if anyone has more to add.

God bless, and thank you all!

Adam


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 23, 2008)

where do we even get the precedent for a worship team? There is no such in the NT. The only thing that can be properly deduced is that the Pastors and the Elders fulfilling the function as a part of corporate worship. In my old church (charismatic) I was the keyboard player. From this experience I can tell that I and the members on the worship team had no business leading the congregation in worship, and it wasn't because we weren't good at singing and playing either.


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## mvdm (Jul 23, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> What if no man wants to/will lead?



If there are no elders or pastors, then this isn't even a church and the issue of "worship leaders" is a non-sequiter.

If there are elders and pastors and none of them want to/will lead, then there is a deeper spiritual problem that needs to be addressed.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 23, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.
> 
> I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.



FYI there are several Fanny Crosby hymns in the Trinity Hymnal although at least one of them, "To God Be the Glory," has been altered to make it Calvinistic.


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## Scott1 (Jul 23, 2008)

In our church, the "worship team" leads in singing. A man leads up front and occassionally reads from Scripture. He leads in choosing the songs subject to advance Session approval. Half or more of the worship team behind him is female.

Women are members of the choir, band and orchestra and sometimes do solos.

Women lead the children's choirs (up through about junior high).

I have never sensed any violation of God's Word and it works beautifully. Everyone using their talents, no "superstars" only very high quality worship.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 23, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> What if no man wants to/will lead?



Then such a 'church' has more problems than whether a woman is leading worship.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Jul 23, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > What if no man wants to/will lead?
> ...


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## py3ak (Jul 23, 2008)

What is "high quality worship"?


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## JBaldwin (Jul 23, 2008)

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians. 

Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.


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## Augusta (Jul 23, 2008)

Joy, with all due respect, God is a better judge of what he wants done in worship to him. Doctrine is just the sort of thing God would look more at than how you sound or whether it's hard to sing. You can be as sincere as the day is long but if it is not what he has commanded it will not please God.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.
> 
> Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.



I tend to agree, for what it's worth, but you know that will be the minority opinion here. 



> 1 Corinthians 14
> As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.



Doesn't say anything about singing.  But I'd guess the "keep silent" part would cover that for some...I suppose...


> It appears that the Church of the Corinthians was infected with this
> fault too, that the talkativeness of women was allowed a place in the
> sacred assembly, or rather that the fullest liberty was given to it.
> Hence he forbids them to speak in public, either for the purpose of
> ...



Calvin commentaries


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## Christusregnat (Jul 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.



The argument from "giftings" is a slippery slope. It is not an argument from Scripture to experience, but from experience to Scripture.

Please show, biblically, why 1. There should be "worship teams", and 2. Why they are not all male (as appears to be the case with the Levitical orders: the _*sons*_ of Levi).

Cheers,

Adam


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## Christusregnat (Jul 23, 2008)

py3ak said:


> What is "high quality worship"?



Suround Sound, Electric Guitars, 15-piece drum set, celebrity visitors, and motorcycles on state...

OOPS WRONG DISCUSSION BOARD!!!

Adam


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## staythecourse (Jul 23, 2008)

> a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.



I am not convinced music is that important to God in worship, especially if his early church is an example. I am shamelessly telling you all what I just spent the last 45 minutes doing. I did not sing the hymns in Trinity, I read them and more easily sucked the marrow from them than with song. I often speak a hymn at church to keep from getting lost in the music of it and without me heart being in it. I have sung in choirs often and have a voice so it's not my lack of ability (still poor as compared to greats) 

The early church was more bare-bones in ornamentation than we are today, and chanting hymns was normal. Here is some material I could find which summarizes some good information to consider in regards to how musical our early fathers were in worship. 



> The singing of the early Christians was simple and art less. Augustine describes the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius as "more like speaking than singing." Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp were associated so intimately with the sensuous heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless perform dances of the degenerate theatre and circus, that it is easy to understand the prejudice against their use in the Christian worship.
> 
> "A Christian maiden," says Jerome, "ought not even to know what a lyre or a flute is, or what it is used for." Clement of Alexandria writes: "Only one instrument do we use, viz., the word of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute."
> 
> Chrysostom expresses himself in like vein: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the Church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."



I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Any thoughts?


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## skellam (Jul 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.



It is, however, not the biblical responsibility of musicians to structure and lead the worship of God's people. I think pastors shoud seek the counsel of musicians in the church to help the people of God sing the songs as best as they can be sung by the congregation. In our church we have songs that we sing on a fairly regular basis that everyone knows well. We have recently introduced a combined Psalter/Hymnal that our teaching elder put a great deal of effort in to producing himself over the past couple years that combines the Trinity Hymnal and the RP Book of Psalms in an attempt to make the singing of Psalms more prominent in our worship. The tunes for some of the new psalms are at times difficult and unfamiliar. A couple of the women in our church are extraordinarily musically gifted and the session arranged for them to teach a monthly Singing School where the people of the church come together and are taught by these women to sing the songs well, including some beautiful harmony. The gifts of the women are used to bring glory to God in worship. In corporate worship though, we sing as one body to our Lord led by the pastor or elder who is given the privilege and the duty to direct God's people in worship. This is a responsibility that the leaders in the church should not hand off or delegate to others (male or female).


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## JBaldwin (Jul 23, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.
> ...




While I realize I am in a minority on this board when it comes to music in worship, I am not really arguing for worship teams, and I don't think I said anything about it my posts. What I am saying is that I think it is a big mistake for pastors and elders, especially those who know next to nothing about music, to ignore talented and godly musicians and try to do a job they are not necessarily gifted to do.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 23, 2008)

py3ak said:


> What is "high quality worship"?



Good Question


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## beej6 (Jul 24, 2008)

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship. 
A woman may play piano, solo, as a accompaniment to the congregational singing. (No, I am not EP, but IP - "inclusive psalmody". Nor am I against instruments in worship, though I believe that if a congregation is strong enough to sing without them, praise God for that!)
If there is a defined hymnal/psalter approved by the elders, a music director of either gender may select hymns, though ideally even these should be approved by the pastor. (There is at least one "hymn" in the Trinity Hymnal which should NOT be sung in a Christian worship service.)

As a former music director (male) who led a "worship team" in an OPC (rare), we had a limited repertoire of hymns (~ 50), and they were sound enough that any were appropriate for any service.


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## Mushroom (Jul 24, 2008)

This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.

I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.

Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 24, 2008)

Brad said:


> This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.
> 
> I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.
> 
> Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.



"Traditionally" Church architecture in most Presbyterian churches had Choir Lofts in the rear of the sanctuary. Now it is either impractical or too expensive to build these lofts in newer church construction.

However we should still put choirs in the rear in some manner.


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## Scott1 (Jul 24, 2008)

> What is "high quality worship"?



Good question, hard to define. Essentially, it is worship that leads to God, not toward the persons "leading" it. No person stands out, but God stands out.


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## TimV (Jul 24, 2008)

A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?

In the OP church we're attending my mom plays the piano and is accompanied by a skilled lady flutist who's dropped some hints towards introducing one of her daughters to one of my sons, so I'm in a bit restricted anyway as to the public airing of my opinion on the matter...


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## skellam (Jul 24, 2008)

py3ak said:


> What is "high quality worship"?



I think the OPC Directory for Public Worship gives us a good idea of what 'high quality' worship is:



> * A service of public worship is not merely a gathering of God's children with each other but before all else a meeting of the triune God with his chosen people. God is present in public worship not only by virtue of the divine omnipresence but, much more intimately, as the faithful covenant Saviour. The Lord Jesus Christ said: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
> 
> * The end of public worship is the glory of God. His people should engage in all its several parts with an eye single to his glory. Public worship has as its aim the building of Christ's church by the perfecting of the saints and the addition to its membership of such as are being saved—all to the glory of God. Through public worship on the Lord's Day Christians should learn to serve God all the days of the week in their every activity, remembering, whether they eat or drink or whatever they do, to do all to the glory of God.
> 
> ...


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## toddpedlar (Jul 24, 2008)

beej6 said:


> So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.



Why the 'formal supervision' requirement? What does that change?


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## Tumbleweed (Jul 24, 2008)

The one thing we surely agree on is that the lives of believers, individually and corporately, (Note, Joy: I'm addicted to commas!), are driven by a love of scriptural principle, rather than a pharisaic obsession with details. My dear wife is an appropriate example in that she wears a headcovering in the assembly, not from legal compulsion, but because she is silently stating her belief and desire that men must lead according to God's creative order.
Now, this same woman takes responsibility for many things in our church, and we are almost too dependent on her, but at no point does she ever cross the line into usurpation, because she loves God and the wisdom of His principles. The danger, which others have alluded to, is when talent trumps holiness at the point where the appointment to ministry is first made. The right person can always be trusted, but no amount of fine-tuning the rules will control the wrong one.


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## JBaldwin (Jul 24, 2008)

TimV said:


> A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. *But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?*



In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn. 

When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.


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## beej6 (Jul 24, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> beej6 said:
> 
> 
> > So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.
> ...



I assume that such a leader is a member of the church, so under the authority of the session. 'Formal supervision' just means a bit more active...


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## DMcFadden (Jul 25, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn.
> 
> When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.



WOW! I wish you were on my staff when I was pastoring!


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Or on my Worship Team


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## Tim (Jul 25, 2008)

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it. 

If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.

But people neglect singing in their own private/family worship and then complain that they don't know how to do it. Then what is asked for is an elaborate 'worship team' with multiple instruments and singers because "we need that".

This neglect sometimes extends to pastors, I think, and then they feel they must appoint a whole music department to take care of that element of worship.

Pastors/elders are the worship leaders. No other worship/spiritual leadership position exists. There is a profound clarity in the Bible regarding this issue.

That is my blunt two cents!

I desire that all would see the blessedness in simple worship.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

Tim said:


> I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.
> 
> If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.
> 
> ...


 &


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

> I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.



As a "master" of singing and music - I respectfully disagree with your premise. Singing (and music in general) is a skill that should be developed in service to God. Those that have been given those abilities have a responsibility to lead and teach, so that the musical worship of God should be skillfully accomplished.

1 Chronicles 15:22
Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful.

Psalm 33:3
Sing to Him a new song;Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

Psalm 47:7
For God is the King of all the earth;Sing praises with a skillful psalm.

Consider David, "A MAN AFTER MY (the Lord's) HEART":

1 Samuel 16:18
Then one of the young men said, "Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite who is a skillful musician, a mighty man of valor, a warrior, one prudent in speech, and a handsome man; and the LORD is with him."

Without his skill and talent turned to the service of God, there would be quite a gap right in the middle of Scripture...


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## TimV (Jul 25, 2008)

> I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.



Some years ago I went through and counted how many times that "stuff" is mentioned in Scripture in the context of worship, and several times the language is actually one of ordering, commanding, the use of "stuff". I think it's about 70 times.

And besides, it's not just the OT; prophetic Scripture tells us that "stuff" is used in Heaven!

No offense, and I do see where you're coming from; there are certainly times when church practices take the eye off the target.


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## Tim (Jul 25, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> As a "master" of singing and music - I respectfully disagree with your premise. Singing (and music in general) is a skill that should be developed in service to God. Those that have been given those abilities have a responsibility to lead and teach, so that the musical worship of God should be skillfully accomplished.



I understand what you are saying, brother, and I think your assessment of the Levites' function is correct, but shouldn't this now fall under the responsibilities of the pastor/elder? The Levitical priesthood has passed away. 

But, really, what I am saying is that this does not require the complexity of an orchestra or extended musical score. It's simple to open one's mouth and sing a psalm. We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex? Orchestra conductors are indeed gifted but I begin to have a problem with this sort of idea:

P1. music is a part of worship
P2. Mr. Classically trained is a gifted musician
C. he must employ all of his abilities in church

The consequence is that the requirement for song is modified above that which is presented in scripture - things become more difficult and people soon 'need' semi-professional musicians to lead.

In my home church, someone begins singing the first note at a suitable pitch and then we all join in. It's as simple as that! There is no need that anyone has any sort of special training. And if you practice the tunes you will know them just as well as your national anthem.

Here is how I see it:

'old' ceremonial worship = required instruments = required Levites appropriately skilled

'new' church worship = just sing = requires only the leadership of pastors/elders; therefore no special leader required


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## py3ak (Jul 25, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> > What is "high quality worship"?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question, hard to define. Essentially, it is worship that leads to God, not toward the persons "leading" it. No person stands out, but God stands out.



But then a worship team/skilled musicians, etc., are essentially irrelevant to high quality worship are they not?

Look, I love opera, not your trashy second-rate Makropolous case sort of junk, but the real thing: _Lucia_, _Rigoletto_, etc. And it used to be one of my favorite daydreams that Ramón Vargas or Cecilia Bartoli would get saved (of course, I'd be thrilled for that to happen now) and come to our church and sing a special.... But then I began to think a little more about God and a little less about the experience. Of course Ramón Vargas should use his lovely voice to the glory of God, and may God illumine him and bring him to do just that. But it is a mistake to think that in order to do so he has to be performing in churches; and it would be absurd to think that his presence and performance would somehow make worship more spiritual. No doubt if he came he could drown out all the rest of the members of the congregation, and the temptation to every person of sensibility would be to clam up and not intrude our own crow's croaking; but how much better would it be if we all together, with one mind and one mouth glorified God?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

TimV said:


> > I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course one could make the argument that the "commands" in Scripture for the use of instruments in the OT were done so in the context of the Temple worship which has been abrogated in the New Testament Church and that if the oft quoted Psalm 150 is a requirement for our worship today then we better get out the cymbals and trumpets. Or we are told of lots of other things done in the context of heavenly worship that we do not do now, like Spurgeon says here.

But that would be an entirely different thread.


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## TimV (Jul 25, 2008)

> But that would be an entirely different thread.



Point taken, but still the sneer quotes around "stuff" describe, at the very least, God ordered and God pleasing forms of worhip in the past and future. Given that, musical instruments couldn't be too grave of a sin, surely ;-)


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Tim said:


> I understand what you are saying, brother, and I think your assessment of the Levites' function is correct, but shouldn't this now fall under the responsibilities of the pastor/elder? The Levitical priesthood has passed away.



Has the requirement of singing and playing skillfully passed away? Where was that abrogated?

As far as the responsibility is concerned, if the elder/pastor is skilled, yes - if not he should seek out a skilled, godly musician.



> But, really, what I am saying is that this does not require the complexity of an orchestra or extended musical score.



As far as complexity goes - it is a matter of scale and intent. You are painting with far too broad a stroke.



> We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex?



You do understand that our national anthem is one of the world's most difficult to sing? particularly sing well? 

You are disregarding all of the skilled musicians through the ages that have developed the foundational components of music that you take for granted. The very tunes you sing are based on musical scales that have been developed and refined over time.



> Orchestra conductors are indeed gifted but I begin to have a problem with this sort of idea:
> 
> P1. music is a part of worship
> P2. Mr. Classically trained is a gifted musician
> ...



p1 all elements of worship should be skillfully accomplished
p2 music\singing is an element of worship

c music\singing in worship should be skillfully accomplished

If you follow this logic and apply it to the appropriate worship environment (home, small church, large church) then the appropriate level of skill available and applicable from the body can be matched to the level of worship intention.



> In my home church, someone begins singing the first note at a suitable pitch and then we all join in. It's as simple as that! There is no need that anyone has any sort of special training. And if you practice the tunes you will know them just as well as your national anthem.



See above concerning the national anthem, the development of foundational musical architecture and the directive to skillfully worship in music.

Net effect - you are oversimplifying.



> Here is how I see it:
> 
> 'old' ceremonial worship = required instruments = required Levites appropriately skilled
> 
> 'new' church worship = just sing = requires only the leadership of pastors/elders; therefore no special leader required



Do you believe the Psalms to be prescriptive for worship? I do. 

Where has the requirement to sing and play instruments skillfully been abrogated? Please give direct Scriptural support.

Who will compose the music for the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs? 

Shall all song be sung with tunes made up on the spot or should they be skillfully wrought (and by skillfull, I do not mean complex) to honor God and thus enable worship in song to be done "decently and in order"? 

Tim, I understand your conviction and rationale, I just think it is incomplete.

For many, the desire to "be simple" has resulted in throwing the baby out with the bath water. Much the same way theology and doctrine has been in contemporary culture, the music of the church has been afflicted by oversimplification and amateurism.

The point is, we seek purity in preaching and teaching and acknowledge that purity is accomplished through learning and skillful exegesis. Why have we decided that purity in worship music requires any less diligence?

All elements of worship should be skillfully wrought to glorify God. 

Taking the best of our God-given talents and applying them to His worship demands that they be done skillfully and appropriately.

Godly and skillfull musicians enable this.

Blessings...


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## TimV (Jul 25, 2008)

> We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex?



I can sing _Die Stem_, but I have to hum along for that new thing...


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > > I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.
> ...



So - we sing the Psalms used in Temple worship, but we reject\ignore their prescriptive value for NT worship? I understand the abrogation of sacrifices, but not rejection of the general worship directives.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Do you believe the Psalms to be prescriptive for worship? I do.
> 
> Where has the requirement to sing and play instruments skillfully been abrogated? Please give direct Scriptural support.



The requirement to play instruments in worship has been abrogated by the abolishment of temple worship (along with the sacrifice of bulls). 

I cannot reproduce it here because of its length but I would suggest looking at John Girardeau's _Instruments in the Public Worship of the Church_, specifically Chapter III "Arguments from the New Testament" pg. 61-94. As well as Chapter II "Arguments from the Old Testament".

It can be found free online here and here.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Again - I understand the abrogation of animal sacrifice, since Christ replaced it, but where is the direct abrogation of the musical components? What did Christ do to replace that?

That is - where does the NT *specifically abrogate* the use of music, voice or instruments as elements of worship?

I'll answer for you - it does not. In fact we are commanded to use the Psalms to guide us in the way we are to worship.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

We are getting a lot . 

However the NT tells us that the OT Temple Worship has been abrogated, all of it. Instruments were more than a "circumstance" and therefore were abrogated along with the animal sacrifice. 

Again read Girardeau's chapters when you get a chance.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and music\singing is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.


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## Roldan (Jul 25, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.
> 
> I'll start another thread to discuss further.



Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

Roldan said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.
> ...



Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.


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## Roldan (Jul 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> > panta dokimazete said:
> ...



Yeah me too but I'll let Panta start it just in case, I don't want to hijack any of his thoughts


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Working it...


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## timmopussycat (Jul 25, 2008)

sans nom said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.
> ...



After 30 years of church music experience, the last 18 working with a female worship leader, I can say that if the practice is to work, it must be build on a deep understanding between preaching elders and worship leader based on a common theology and shared assumptions of what is intended to be conveyed by the hymns and music chosen. 

I would also like to note that it is not a biblical requiremet for elders that they be musically gifted. While some are, others are not. An ill chosen tune can nullify any effective contemplation of the words sung. One of the greatest preachers I know insisted on a very poor tune for a very good hymn. Thankfully he was open to advice where other hymns were concerned.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Working it...


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## timmopussycat (Jul 25, 2008)

staythecourse said:


> > a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement. 

That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.


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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> > panta dokimazete said:
> ...



I got my John Frame right in front of me!


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## ChristopherPaul (Jul 25, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Roldan said:
> ...



Apples and Oranges. You would be talking past each other in interpreting the RPW for Frame takes exception to the RPW.


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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2008)

Frame claims he believes in it.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> staythecourse said:
> 
> 
> > > a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.
> ...



In an instrument discussion Psalm 150, In my humble opinion, is a non-sequitur. Why you ask since it is nothing but instruments? 

1) The Psalm, given its context, has nothing to do with NT worship and everything to do with Temple Worship.

2) People who claim that this Psalm is proscriptive for NT worship do not use the instruments supposedly "commanded" in their own worship.

3) If Psalm 150 is commanded, why do you not dance or chant as these are commanded as well?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Frame claims he believes in it.



Jim Wallis claims to be an evangelical as well. I love Frame and have a huge amount of respect for him but his "revised" RPW is not the Regulative Principle as much as I can tell.


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## Roldan (Jul 25, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Roldan said:
> ...



LOL


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2008)

Thread's up!


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## Stomata leontôn (Jul 25, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.


This is the old left brain versus right brain analogy, analytic versus analogical thinking. Preaching is analytical, music analogical; preaching particular, music holistic. This means that preaching gives out more information and details, but music puts the ideas together in ways that words cannot. 

Music is movement and it is spatial. It moves the listener in time toward a goal and how it does it is its thesis. This is very difficult to explain, but it can be shown; music is a parable. Music is something you walk somebody through. Music can express depth, or superficiality, or loftiness in ways that words cannot. Words bring ideas down to people; music brings people up to the ideas. And if done well, it uplifts the heart to God.

The reason so many pastors get music wrong is that their dominant thinking style is verbal. But most people are visual, meaning that they respond to the spatial movement of music more readily than to the statically localized nature of words. Stuffing words of good doctrine into a song makes bad music and it is really just a clumsy form of preaching anyway.

Of course we all understand this at least intuitively, which is why churches have musicians. To get it right, the musician is accountable to the direction of the pastor, and the pastor works in tandem with the musician when the music is planned. The pastor decides the message and the musician delivers it with his expertise.

The left brain and the right work together, and more types of people are reached. Music not only gives a rest within the many words together, but it gives a framework for all the prayers, scripture, and sermon to hang together. A good pastor and musician, using music can even plan the whole service like a composition.


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## timmopussycat (Jul 25, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.
> 
> That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.





Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> In an instrument discussion Psalm 150, In my humble opinion, is a non-sequitur. Why you ask since it is nothing but instruments?
> 
> 1) The Psalm, given its context, has nothing to do with NT worship and everything to do with Temple Worship.
> 
> ...



Temple worship is not mentioned in the psalm; praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are. Only if praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are abolished in the NT can we say this psalm has nothing to do with NT worship. 

Some of us do use those instruments: we have a harp (the modern lyre) and trumpets on our worship team. 

And we have been known to use liturgical dance on occasion.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> timmopussycat said:
> 
> 
> > Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.
> ...



If they are commanded to be done in worship should you not, to be consistent, use them all the time? 

By the way what/where might be the "Praise God in His sanctuary" referred to in Psalm 150?


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## Augusta (Jul 25, 2008)

God is looking for worshipers who will worship in spirit and in truth. Man looks at the outside but God looks at the inside. All of this outward stuff is not what God is looking for in worship. Our voices, which he has created, lifted up in a sacrifice of praise to him. Just as Moses and Joshua had to remove there shoes (man's invention)to touch holy ground, so we need to remove all else to sing praise to God before his throne. Our voices are the only instrument we need. 

Jeremiah 33:10-12 

10"Thus says the LORD: In this place of which you say, 'It is a waste without man or beast,' in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man or inhabitant or beast, there shall be heard again 
11 the *voice *of mirth and the voice of gladness, the *voice *of the bridegroom and the *voice *of the bride, the *voices *of those who sing, as they bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD:

"'Give thanks to the LORD of hosts,
for the LORD is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever!'

For I will restore the fortunes of the land as at first, says the LORD.


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## Roldan (Jul 25, 2008)

No disrespect to anyone but shouldn't we be posting these that concern instruments on the otha thread?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2008)

Roldan said:


> No disrespect to anyone but shouldn't we be posting these that concern instruments on the otha thread?



Maybe a mod could move some of them?


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## py3ak (Jul 25, 2008)

Peter H said:


> Music is movement and it is spatial. It moves the listener in time toward a goal and how it does it is its thesis. This is very difficult to explain, but it can be shown; music is a parable. Music is something you walk somebody through. Music can express depth, or superficiality, or loftiness in ways that words cannot. Words bring ideas down to people; music brings people up to the ideas. *And if done well, it uplifts the heart to God.*



Peter, it seems to me that your view necessarily implies two further propositions.

1. Music is a means of grace.

2. Some music is instrinsically holy or unholy. 

Do you have Scriptural support for either proposition?

You see, I believe it would be much more accurate to say that to certain people, certain kinds of music can occasion them to lift their hearts up to the Lord, as certain outdoor views can again cause certain people to rejoice in God's creative activity. But that very same thing can leave another person cold and bored; or it can give them an ecstatic experience which has nothing whatever to do with God. 

I think there is a hint of this in the book of James. Is any among you merry? Let him sing Psalms. It is an instinct with a lot of people to hum/whistle/sing when they are cheerful. A Christian directs (ought to direct) that cheerfulness Godward; a heathen whistles whatever tune he likes. Both are alike cheerful; however one's cheerfulness occasions praise, while the other one's does not. So the cheerfulness should not be confused with the praise. In the same way, I think the influence of music which can certainly be an occasion for adoration, ought not be confused with the adoration itself.


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## Christusregnat (Jul 26, 2008)

By the by, we had our first Committee meeting Friday evening, and the women directing worship issue didn't come up, as we're dealing more with the overall liturgy.

Thanks for all of the input, and have a delightful Sabbath!

Godspeed,


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## timmopussycat (Jul 28, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> timmopussycat said:
> 
> 
> > timmopussycat said:
> ...



"Praise God in his sanctuary" may not refer to the temple. For if the psalm was written either by David or by one of the musicians of his day it may refer to the tent in which the ark was then kept. And do not forget the prophecy of Amos 9 quoted by James in Acts 15 that it was this tabernacle that would be restored not Solomon's temple.
Nor does "Praise God in his sanctuary" limit the location in which we are to praise God. It is only one location in which we are to do so, for the third line is "Praise God in his mighty expanse" i.e., everywhere.


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## pilgrim3970 (Jul 28, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. *But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?*
> ...



And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that arrangement.


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