# A pointless question that happens to be frying my brain.



## Micah (Apr 20, 2010)

This is PURELY hypothetical and actually pointless since none of us will ever face this (Lord willing), but something I've been racking my brain over for months.

Say you were visiting a foreign country with your wife on a missions trip, and you were captured by a militant group of outlaws who persecuted Christians. They hold a gun to your wife's head and ask you if you're a Christian.

If you affirm Christ, they shoot her in the head.

If you deny Christ, they set you both free.

You can't take the bullet for her. They have it against her head, and are asking you if your faith in Christ is worth more than the life of your wife.

With all the implications of denying your Lord, and all the implications of willfully doing something that you know will result in the death of your wife (how is that loving her like Christ loves the church?), what is the right thing to do? 

Either you deny God before men, or you kill your wife by your decision to affirm Him.

Basically the question is, how can you show Christ is worth more than even your wife's life, if you are commanded to love her as Christ loves the Church?

It's a stupid, pointless question, but thought it would be fun to hear your thoughts.


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## JennyG (Apr 20, 2010)

Throughout my life I've been very prone to worry about hypotheticals too....a sign of an overactive imagination, but also of a lack of trust at some level, I now can see. 
I think we need to tell ourselves firmly that God has NOT required this (whatever it is) of us, and until he does, imagining it is at best a distraction from the things we ought really to be dwelling on. If he ever did require it, you can be sure that 1) it won't be exactly as you imagined, so preparing yourself beforehand will have been a waste of time, and 2) it will in that hour be given you what you ought to say/do!

I do realise that doesn't at all answer your question....

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

when I say lack of trust of course I'm referring to what I already know about the workings of my own mind - not attributing it to you! I do think though that this is a temptation.


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## JennyG (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm posting an example which I think is a good sidelight on the subject, but in a new thread, q.v.!


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## Michael (Apr 20, 2010)

Well, both you and your wife have agreed to enter a country with militants in order to give your lives to the Gospel. I'm assuming that a woman of this character would not expect you to have led her there to deny Christ.


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## bug (Apr 20, 2010)

> Either you deny God before men, or you kill your wife by your decision to affirm Him.



You would not kill your wife, they would kill your wife. Perhaps that is worth remembering! 

You have to ask yourself, why the Lord has put you in that situation? What does he want you to do? Who knows, perhaps the strenght of your witness as you stand firm in your faith will be used by the Lord to save the man with the gun? One thing I do know, is that if my wife dies for her faith, or indeed my faith, she will go to be with the Lord, which for her is rich gain. The loss in such a situation would only be mine! 

Another thing I know whilst we can all talk about what we would do in this, or that situation, the reality is we will never know unless we are there. My hope and prayer is that if any of us ever face such a dilemma, then by God's grace we will have the courage to do that which brings honour and glory to his name.


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## MarieP (Apr 20, 2010)

Micah said:


> This is PURELY hypothetical and actually pointless since none of us will ever face this (Lord willing), but something I've been racking my brain over for months.
> 
> Say you were visiting a foreign country with your wife on a missions trip, and you were captured by a militant group of outlaws who persecuted Christians. They hold a gun to your wife's head and ask you if you're a Christian.
> 
> ...


 
Even though we can't separate love of Christ and love of our brethren, I believe denying Christ in this instance is hardly the answer. First, to deny Christ would not only bring grief to your Lord, but bring grief upon your spouse (or any Christian that you are with in this scenario) as well. Second, it's not that you are approving of the evil the persecutor threatens to do to your spouse. You are not tempting him to kill your spouse. He doesn't HAVE to go through with what he does.

Plus, if your spouse is thinking Biblically (and is physically conscious) they'd be laying their life down too and telling you not to deny Christ and saying that they can kill the body but not the soul.


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## chbrooking (Apr 20, 2010)

> Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:33)


and


> Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:37)



I'm not sure why this is a dilemma at all. The answer seems certain, though painful. But suffering is our lot


> “Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,”
> (2Timothy 3:12 ESV)



On the other hand,


> this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,”
> (2Corinthians 4:17 ESV)


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## Andres (Apr 20, 2010)

okay well first I say something pithy, yet profound to the bad guy - something along the lines of "I'll tell you what I deny ... You." Then I spin around wrenching the gun from his hand. I turn and shoot the other bad guy before he can pull his weapon and then I throw a ninja star at the bad guy by the door. Then I turn to the big bad guy behind me and we have a strangely beautiful choreographed fist-fight. After I knock him out with a nicely placed uppercut, my wife and I escape the room holding us captive and make a dash to a helicopter, excuse me, a chopper. As we board the chopper we dodge machine gun fire from the other rebels and then as we fly off I detonate a bomb blowing up their base headquarters. Oh, and all the while my muscles are showing.


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## TimV (Apr 20, 2010)

You don't owe the truth to the heathen.


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## Blue Tick (Apr 20, 2010)

Yes, it's a theoretical question, but I would not put my wife in a situation like this. That would avoid it all together. 

This question is similar to: If Nazis come to your door during WWII, and your hiding Jews, are you obligated to tell the Nazis about the Jews? By answering in the affirmative you run the risk of violating the 6th commandment. Under the 6th commandment we are obligated to preserve life and protect.


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## Tripel (Apr 20, 2010)

What would really stink is if you go the route of preserving life by denying Christ, and then you both get killed anyway. Point is, if you've been captured by people like you described, who have a gun to your wife's head and are intent on getting you to deny Christ, why would you trust their word? In such a hypothetical situation, I'm assuming that we're as good as dead and I'm going out on a high note.


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## Curt (Apr 20, 2010)

Blue Tick said:


> Yes, it's a theoretical question, but I would not put my wife in a situation like this. That would avoid it all together.


 
There are times when bedlam breaks out in places expected to be peaceful.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 20, 2010)

People have faced this many times down through the ages. Sadly, it is a typical tactic of evil men to take the lives of family members to get what they want. When I lived in France, I knew someone who watched the Nazis kill her entire family in front of her in order to get information about Jewish children they were hiding (she never told by the way). You have to do what is right and trust God to take care of the rest.


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## Houston E. (Apr 20, 2010)

I can only say what I would hope to do in that situation, that being proclaim Christ. I do think it can be likened to Peter in the garden, trying to prevent Christ's arrest. 


> 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant [7] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”


We must proclaim Christ. If it must be so, then proclaiming Christ to the death of your spouse will bring glory to God.

On a side note, I join Andres strategy, although while in the "chopper" I would radio coordinates to ally fighter jets with timely quote of , "Bring the rain..."


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## AThornquist (Apr 20, 2010)

I hope I'm not the only one who is _shocked_ that we are honestly discussing *DENYING OUR SAVIOR*. What sort of hellish thought is that? Affirm Christ, _regardless_ of the circumstances! Are we not supposed to give all for that pearl of great price? Are we not supposed to sell all we have to buy the field with hidden treasure? Christ must be first and foremost in our hearts, worth sacrificing everything for, including our spouses. I would rather we consider the merits of p0rnography or incest than denying the very one who died for us. Seriously . . . just . . . wow.


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## Tripel (Apr 20, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> I hope I'm not the only one who is _shocked_ that we are honestly discussing *DENYING OUR SAVIOR*. What sort of hellish thought is that?



Andrew,

While I appreciate your conviction and sincerity, I can understand those who would consider opting to save their wife in this situation.

Here's the deal: this is not about falling away from your faith or giving up your salvation. It's about lying. If I deny Christ, I am declaring something that is false and that I know to be false. One could argue that evil men in this situation do not deserve the truth, thus rationalizing the choice to protect the person I vowed to protect.

Now, note that I said I can_ understand_ this argument. I don't exactly agree with it.



> I would rather we consider the merits of p0rnography or incest than denying the very one who died for us. Seriously . . . just . . . wow.


 
I'm going to strongly disagree with you here. I don't want to get into a discussion about which sins are worse, but I would certainly put a lie to protect your spouse on a different level than p0rnography and incest.....sins that have long and lasting affects. (not that all sins don't have lasting affects to some degree, but you know what I mean)


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 20, 2010)

Christian couples, as well as parents and children, need to have the understanding that each is ready to die and to be with the Lord rather than deny Him, despite threats made against others in the family.

A godly wife (or husband) would say to their spouse, "Honey, I'm ready to die. _You_ stay true to the Lord whatever happens."

This is just basic SOP for Christians.


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## Houston E. (Apr 20, 2010)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Christian couples, as well as parents and children, need to have the understanding that each is ready to die and to be with the Lord rather than deny Him, despite threats made against others in the family.
> 
> A godly wife (or husband) would say to their spouse, "Honey, I'm ready to die. _You_ stay true to the Lord whatever happens."
> 
> This is just basic SOP for Christians.


 
I would be in agreement here, although I don't believe, given we are still fallen creatures, that anyone can proclaim for certainty what they would do in the given situation.


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## AThornquist (Apr 20, 2010)

Tripel said:


> > I would rather we consider the merits of p0rnography or incest than denying the very one who died for us. Seriously . . . just . . . wow.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to strongly disagree with you here. I don't want to get into a discussion about which sins are worse, but I would certainly put a lie to protect your spouse on a different level than p0rnography and incest.....sins that have long and lasting affects. (not that all sins don't have lasting affects to some degree, but you know what I mean)



I understand what you are getting at, though denying Christ is denying Christ any way you cut the pie. Leaving out the p0rnography and incest part would have been much simpler on my part but my only point in bringing them up is that a) I find them deplorable and b) I hate the denial of Christ even more so. While I certainly agree that confessing Christ is a decision with attached temporal tragedy, it is the only option if your mind is on the things of God. That, of course, is easier said than done though.


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## VictorBravo (Apr 20, 2010)

Once you have resolved in your mind the right thing to do, pray that you are not like Peter:



> But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
> And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the rooster crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
> But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.



Mark 14:29-31

And, when you fail, pray that you end like Peter:



> Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
> This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.



John 21:18-19

Unless you are actually contemplating venturing into such scenarios, I think you are right, the question is pointless. More profitable would be to consider how we deny Christ daily in our mundane actions.


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## JennyG (Apr 20, 2010)

I wonder if I'm the only one amazed to find this question discussed at such serious length?? (or _fairly_ seriously, in Andres's case)
I really can't believe hypothetical moral dilemmas are ever a profitable exercise....you guys go and look at the example I posted on a thread called (guess what?) _hypothetical moral dilemmas_ and you'll see what I mean


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## chbrooking (Apr 20, 2010)

Jenny,
You've posted more often in this thread than anyone else.


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## JennyG (Apr 20, 2010)

chbrooking said:


> Jenny,
> You've posted more often in this thread than anyone else.


yes - but only to tell you that you shouldn't keep posting!!


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## Caroline (Apr 20, 2010)

Well, I once thought something like this was not only possible, but nearly certain. I grew up mid-trib premil, y'see. Rapture was for sissies. We were convinced we were all gonna die in the Great Tribulation. Probably by having our heads chopped off or being burned at the stake. And if we denied Christ, we would go to hell, so this was a Very Serious Matter. "Just keep in mind," my mother said, "that there's only so much pain the human body can take, and then you will die. And if you don't give in and deny Christ, then you will go to heaven. But if you deny Christ, you will burn for eternity in hell."

Yeah, we were barrells of fun. *sigh*

I'd advise not spending a lot of time agonizing about this. It turns out that God doesn't ask it of most people. But the question really is asking, "What might you possibly do under serious duress without much time to think about it?" I think it's impossible to know that for sure, and that's why there was so much angst in my family about it. But God gives a pass to most sins that are committed under duress--rape is not the same thing as adultery, self-defense killing is not the same as murder; stealing when you are hungry is given minimal punishment. In these cases, it seems that the guilt of the sin lies with the person who put lives at stake. I would think it is the same with denying Christ. Of course, we should not make a practice of it. And perhaps it is heroic to not give in. But if someone DOES give in, then I think the guilt lies with the person holding the gun.


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## Andres (Apr 20, 2010)

Caroline said:


> I'd advise not spending a lot of time agonizing about this. It turns out that God doesn't ask it of most people. But the question really is asking, "What might you possibly do under serious duress without much time to think about it?" I think it's impossible to know that for sure, and that's why there was so much angst in my family about it. But God gives a pass to most sins that are committed under duress--*rape is not the same thing as adultery, self-defense killing is not the same as murder; stealing when you are hungry is given minimal punishment*. In these cases, it seems that the guilt of the sin lies with the person who put lives at stake. I would think it is the same with denying Christ. Of course, we should not make a practice of it. And perhaps it is heroic to not give in. But if someone DOES give in, then I think the guilt lies with the person holding the gun.


 
I can see your point on the latter two examples, but how is rape ever permissable???


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## Tripel (Apr 20, 2010)

Andres said:


> I can see your point on the latter two examples, but how is rape ever permissable???


 
I think she was speaking about the victim


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## Andres (Apr 20, 2010)

Tripel said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > I can see your point on the latter two examples, but how is rape ever permissable???
> ...



well even then, I'm still confused. How would rape victims ever be guilty of sin?


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## Tripel (Apr 20, 2010)

Andres said:


> well even then, I'm still confused. How would rape victims ever be guilty of sin?


 
It's a bit of a stretch, but I think her point is that they aren't guilty of sin because they didn't choose to have sex with another person--they were forced into that spot.


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## Caroline (Apr 20, 2010)

Andres said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...


 
They wouldn't. That's the point. Having extra-marital relations with someone at gunpoint is not a sin, except for the person holding the gun. I would argue that this shows that God's disposition is that things that would normally be sins are not sins if committed under threat of one's life.


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## Iconoclast (Apr 20, 2010)

15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? 

16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 

17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 

18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.


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## Skyler (Apr 20, 2010)

This is hardly a stupid pointless question. We face this dilemma (and come out completely wrong!) way more often than you might think.

There's more than one way to deny God. You can do it simply by not speaking up about something you know is wrong. And then it's not even your wife's (or anyone's) life that's on the line; it's your pride, or your reputation. And how often do we fail even with so inconsequential a casualty as that?


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## Caroline (Apr 20, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...


 
I beg to differ, but more to the point, the Bible does not support that. Rahab lied about the spies. Jael killed Sisera in his sleep. Proverbs says that we should not despise someone who steals because he is starving. Circumstances matter. Of course, I would agree that rape and adultry are not the same thing. The question is: why are they not the same thing? Islam culture often does hold that a woman is impure either way. The Bible does not. And why? Because one is forced and the other is willful. 

To say otherwise is an oversimplification. This is why we have judicial process. A man shoots another man. Is it murder? Or is it self-defense? The guy is dead either way, but one of those is a sin and the other isn't.

A woman has sexual relations with a man who is not her husband. He says it was consensual, she says it was rape. Does it matter whether he was holding a gun to her head at the time? Yes, in fact, it does. 

Now, a man might decide to allow himself to be killed rather than take the life of another person, or a woman might decide to fight to the death rather than have sex with her rapist, and perhaps that would be brave--even heroic. But that is not an OBLIGATION.

So the ethics here are not simple. Yes, there are martyrs, yes they were brave. Does it follow that we all REQUIRED to be martyrs over EVERYTHING? I think that would be a very difficult case to make. The Egyptian midwives lied to Pharoah, and God commended them for saving lives.


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## darrellmaurina (Apr 20, 2010)

Just a caution: speaking as a reporter who deals with rape cases on the police blotter several times per week during most weeks, I think us men ought to be very careful what we say about rape. Even if what we say is completely right, it is better said by a female voice. 

Rape is a much more common crime than many people realize. Sizeable numbers of women in our churches have been victims of sexual assaults, some of which were full-fledged rapes. But the vast majority are never reported, and of those that are reported, many are never successfully prosecuted. When men make comments about rape, we need to realize that we may well be saying them in front of a rape victim -- the person we know as an 85-year-old widow of an elder, a 21-year-old college student, a 16-year-old star athlete, a 35-year-old mother of five, may very well have a traumatic event in her past that nobody would ever guess -- possibly not even her husband or her father.

(And yes, I know male homosexual rape does happen, but that is not what was being talked about here.)


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## py3ak (Apr 20, 2010)

Historically, it seems that in times of persecution family members have encouraged one another not to deny the faith - mothers telling their children to be strong, and vice versa. The report, in other words, from those who have been in that situation is to trust Christ and proclaim His lordship: He died and rose and revived that He might be lord of both dead and living, and whether we live or die we are the Lord's, so why would a death whose sting has been removed be such an influence that it would lead you to denigrate the lordship of Christ?
As to the, "I'm only lying" defense, Peter could have said the same thing; but it wouldn't have flown. We are to confess Christ before men.


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## SarahM (Apr 20, 2010)

Skyler said:


> This is hardly a stupid pointless question. We face this dilemma (and come out completely wrong!) way more often than you might think.
> 
> There's more than one way to deny God. You can do it simply by not speaking up about something you know is wrong. And then it's not even your wife's (or anyone's) life that's on the line; it's your pride, or your reputation. And how often do we fail even with so inconsequential a casualty as that?



Good point.


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## Micah (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow. Interesting inputs. Didn't mean it to get so heated 

The main thing I'm struggling with is to what extent do you love your wife? We are taught to love our wives like Christ loves us, and to regard them the way we regard our own bodies with an unconditional love, and to protect them with our lives.

If you affirm God, knowing she will die, does that mean your love is under the condition that no one forces you to make that choice? You will protect her no matter what, with that one exception?

Does making the choice in which you know she will die mean you don't love her enough to protect her life no matter what, and there is an exception?

I understand that affirming Christ even if it costs you your wife is showing that Christ is such a treasure to you that He is worth even your wife's life, but that just seems like an unloving thing to do to your wife?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Apr 21, 2010)

Guess I am too much of a geezer to see how this sort of "what if?" is "fun" to discuss.

AMR


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## JennyG (Apr 21, 2010)

TimV said:


> You don't owe the truth to the heathen.


I started thinking about that....it would be convenient, but I don't know, maybe we do


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## py3ak (Apr 21, 2010)

Micah said:


> Wow. Interesting inputs. Didn't mean it to get so heated
> 
> The main thing I'm struggling with is to what extent do you love your wife? We are taught to love our wives like Christ loves us, and to regard them the way we regard our own bodies with an unconditional love, and to protect them with our lives.
> 
> ...



How much was Abraham supposed to love Isaac?


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## Steve Curtis (Apr 21, 2010)

Joshua said:


> The Scriptures no where say that the Hebrew (I think you meant Hebrew, not Egyptian) midwives lied to Pharaoh. That is simply an assumption people have made without any indication from the text.



Just an interesting note from Matthew Henry (whom I have been reading in a devotional study of Exodus): he draws a similar conclusion regarding the midwives:

"I see no reason we have to doubt the truth of this; it is plain that the Hebrews were now under an extraordinary blessing of increase, which may well be supposed to have this effect, that the women had very quick and easy labour, and, the mothers and children being both lively, they seldom needed the help of midwives: this these midwives took notice of, and, concluding it to the finger of God, were thereby emboldened to disobey the king, in favour of those whom Heaven thus favoured, and with this justified themselves before Pharaoh, when he called them to an account for it. Some of the ancient Jews expound it thus, Ere the midwife comes to them they pray to their Father in heaven, and he answereth them, and they do bring forth. Note, God is a readier help to his people in distress than any other helpers are, and often anticipates them with the blessings of his goodness; such deliverances lay them under peculiarly strong obligations."

Incidentally, he suggests that the women were, in fact, _Egyptian_, not Hebrew:

"They are called Hebrew midwives, probably not because they were themselves Hebrews (for surely Pharaoh could never expect they should be so barbarous to those of their own nation), but because they were generally made use of by the Hebrews; and, being Egyptians, he hoped to prevail with them."


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## jayce475 (Apr 21, 2010)

Micah said:


> Wow. Interesting inputs. Didn't mean it to get so heated
> 
> The main thing I'm struggling with is to what extent do you love your wife? We are taught to love our wives like Christ loves us, and to regard them the way we regard our own bodies with an unconditional love, and to protect them with our lives.
> 
> ...


 
There's simply no comparison between Christ and a spouse. In this instance, perhaps the best way to show love is to plead with those people to take your life instead of your spouse's, but yet affirm Christ at the same time. But yes Christ is worth my spouse's life, but more importantly, He is worth mine.


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## MarieP (Apr 21, 2010)

Micah said:


> I understand that affirming Christ even if it costs you your wife is showing that Christ is such a treasure to you that He is worth even your wife's life, but that just seems like an unloving thing to do to your wife?



At least in this situation your wife is a believer and will be with Christ.


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## Caroline (Apr 21, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Historically, it seems that in times of persecution family members have encouraged one another not to deny the faith - mothers telling their children to be strong, and vice versa. The report, in other words, from those who have been in that situation is to trust Christ and proclaim His lordship: He died and rose and revived that He might be lord of both dead and living, and whether we live or die we are the Lord's, so why would a death whose sting has been removed be such an influence that it would lead you to denigrate the lordship of Christ?
> As to the, "I'm only lying" defense, Peter could have said the same thing; but it wouldn't have flown. We are to confess Christ before men.



Yes, possibly I should clarify my own post by stating that I do think that taking the bullet is the best way. I do think, however, that unless people have been in the situation, it is difficult to comprehend the level of psychological pressure involved, especially when there is not time to think things through. I've never had a gun to my head, but I have had my life threatened for being a Trinitarian when I was a kid in a Oneness church. 

It is easy ahead of time to think, "Well, obviously, I would do this or that." And believe me, afterward, there is plenty of guilt and thinking, "I should have done this or that." At the time, it is just very difficult to think what to do at all. You panic, you get dizzy, it's hard to think and hard to breathe. There isn't the rational weighing of options that seems to be suggested on this thread.

Am I embarrassed for how I handled it? Yes, very. Do I wish I would have fought back? Yes, I do. BUT can I say for certain that I would handle it differently if I had it to do over again? Well, I'd like to think so, but I don't know that for sure. 

The question here is does God judge people for things they say when they are completely panicked and not in their right frame of mind? Well, if so, I'm thinking that if He does, it's probably not very much, especialy considering the Bible's thoughtfulness about mitigating circumstances. I would submit that even most of our martyrs had time in prison and such to think things over. I can't think of a story where one of them was grabbed totally by surprise, which is why Foxe's Book of Martyrs doesn't have people saying, "What? Wait. I ... um ... what?" Which is pretty much all you say when you are just standing around minding your own business and someone tells you to renounce your faith or die.


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## MarieP (Apr 21, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Micah said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. Interesting inputs. Didn't mean it to get so heated
> ...


 
OOOH!!!!! YES!!!! This is the best answer of the thread...


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## Steve Curtis (Apr 21, 2010)

Joshua said:


> kainos01 said:
> 
> 
> > Joshua said:
> ...



Didn't mean to imply that you had intimated anything - hence, the use of "Incidentally"! Relative to the discussion of their designation, I thought it was interesting. I had always kind of thought of them as Hebrew, making the order of Pharaoh all that more horrific.


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## Tripel (Apr 21, 2010)

It's been mentioned a few times that we should not do evil so that good may follow. If I'm honest, I would probably lie about a lot of things if it meant saving the life of my wife or my children (but that is assuming that it truly would mean saving their lives). Let's say the hypothetical situation is even more ridiculous: I'm captured along with my whole family, and a gun is pointed to my child's head. In order to save my child's life (yes, I know this is ridiculous) I am told I must state that I hate the USA. 
Easy choice. Even though it's a lie, I'd say something like that to protect my family. 

Now, this could be taken to even further extremes which is not necessary, but my point is that I believe it makes all the difference in the world the context in which you say something false. If I'm hiding a Jew in WWII, yep, I'm lying to protect them, and I imagine my conscience would be clear.

With all of that said, I too believe we shouldn't do evil so that good may come. Where I would differ with some of you is defining what is evil.


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## jambo (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't think this is a pointless question as this type of thing is happening in our world today. In fact not including famine, drought, illness, natural causes or disasters, a staggering 500 Christians PER DAY are dying for their faith. The chances are that if you were in that situation they would probably shoot you both anyway.

It is the easiest thing in the world to sit here in the comforts of your own home and boldly state you would never deny the Lord no matter what. I believe that is foolish as you really do not know how you would react in such a situation. An example is Peter who assured the Lord he would never deny him then a few hours later he did. Although you would hope to be faithful to the end but the emotion, the pressure, the fear, the natural instinct to survive means we would not be thinking objectively. Church history records many who stood firm under intense pressure and pain but no matter what you declare now, when it comes to the crunch who can say how you would react..

Two things I have observed; those who declare their undying love and how they would never yield in times of persecution are the very ones who remain silent at work and hide their faith in public. Secondly those who promise to endure all pain can't bear to be even tickled!


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## py3ak (Apr 21, 2010)

Caroline said:


> Yes, possibly I should clarify my own post by stating that I do think that taking the bullet is the best way. I do think, however, that unless people have been in the situation, it is difficult to comprehend the level of psychological pressure involved, especially when there is not time to think things through. I've never had a gun to my head, but I have had my life threatened for being a Trinitarian when I was a kid in a Oneness church.
> 
> It is easy ahead of time to think, "Well, obviously, I would do this or that." And believe me, afterward, there is plenty of guilt and thinking, "I should have done this or that." At the time, it is just very difficult to think what to do at all. You panic, you get dizzy, it's hard to think and hard to breathe. There isn't the rational weighing of options that seems to be suggested on this thread.
> 
> ...


 
The church did deal with the problem of the lapsed - those who offered incense to Caesar, etc., to avoid persecution. I think the example of Christ and Peter definitely leads you to settle with those who believe restoration to be possible for those who do so: certainly Cranmer was able to repent at last and show a Christian's faith. But while understanding our own weakness should keep us from boasting as Peter and the other disciples did, yet it shouldn't be an option in the back of our minds - "Well, I can always deny Christ and get out of it." Renouncing Christ, in reality or in pretense (though I'm not sure we can distinguish those very sharply), simply isn't an alternative.


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## tlharvey7 (Apr 22, 2010)

if you factored chuck norris, or one of the many martial art experts in this forum, into the scenario then the outcome will be comepletly different


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## MW (Apr 22, 2010)

The moral of this thread -- pointless questions lead to pointless answers. Like the little boy trying to write with a pencil with the end snapped off -- it's pointless, said the teacher.


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## Peairtach (Apr 23, 2010)

It is always sinful to deny Christ. I say that as someone who denies Him every day in various ways.

On the other hand, it is sometimes the required and correct response of the Christian to intentionally deceive. There are examples of this in Scripture but we are only allowed to do this in very limited circumstances e.g. deceiving the enemy in time of war, deceiving the mad axe man who wants to kill someone. Some of the greatest heroes in peace and war have done the right and good thing by being adept at deception.

I believe God gave these examples of Godly deception in Scripture in order to help us not in interpret the Ninth Commandment too narrowly or legalistically in certain circumstances, although obviously we shouldn't use these examples licentiously either.

Jochem Douma's excellent "The Ten Commandments: Manual for the Christian Life" (P and R) discusses this under the Ninth Commandment.

*Quote from Jambo*


> Secondly those who promise to endure all pain can't bear to be even tickled!


Well if there is ever persecution of Christians in the West by MI5 or the CIA, tickling and comfy chairs seem to be the only interrogation techniques that are currently contemplated as acceptable according to the current hippie morality, though no doubt Christians might get "special" treatment, being the Auld Enemy.


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## jwithnell (Apr 23, 2010)

One of the questions that comes up in security clearances involves close family members overseas, their occupations and where they reside. The reason: they don't want to risk having someone with sensitive information forced into the situation of having to compromise the safety of a family member. In some cases (involving a person I know from a security agency that is rarely named) neither he nor his wife is permitted to go into certain countries or regions even on a cruise ship.

The point I believe is preventing a compromising situation to occur in the first place. Likely the wife (and possibly a married man) should not be sent into the mission field originally described. I realize that not everything can be prevented -- a previously peaceful company could have a major upheaval, particularly in places where Muslims and Christians are joined under one national flag. In that case, I believe we should follow God's law and trust him to resolve the situation.


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