# Living with Arminians



## CatechumenPatrick (Aug 18, 2007)

I am not sure if this thread is in the correct place, but I figured it concerns itself primarily with being a witness to other Christians who hold heretical views. 
In a week I will be returning to school to finish my third and last year as an undergraduate (after which, I hope and pray, I will be attending WTS PA for my masters). I had to spend two years in the dorms at my very secular and university (after only two and a half years as a Christian), in a town that has no Reformed churches. My goals for this last year are simple and high: to be a consistent witness and light to the world around me, and grow both in my knowledge of the Lord and His Word and especially in my Godliness and obedience. In my evaluation, I was a horrible witness during my first two years, and I want to improve on this immensely. 
I will not be in the dorms, however: I will be living in the "guy's house" of the Christian fellowship I have been involved with for the past two years (His House Christian Fellowship). I have heard almost every cliché attack on the Reformed faith in the fellowship throughout the past two years and a plethora of heretical doctrines touted around unquestionably. I am so thankful for the place the Lord has put me, and I want to be a light not only on campus, but in the fellowship--a fellowship that treats Christianity as purely an experience and is very doctrinally ignorant, often tolerant of every worldview except that of Calvinism, or "predestrinarianism" as some of them call it. Do any of you have advise on being a witness to other Christians, Christians that are not only heretical and unorthodox in our Reformed eyes, but do not really care about theology, doctrine, or belief, that they assume is incorrect? Any helpful experiences with witnessing to other Christians that you could share? How do you approach, witness, and even live with Christians who are opposed to Reformed Christianity? I appreciate your advice and comments, thank you.


----------



## Herald (Aug 18, 2007)

Partick,

First - be careful with the term heretic and heretical. There are many Christians who have an Arminian view of soteriology but have hardly any idea how to articulate what they believe. They have been fed the company line by the free will churches they attend and don't know any better. I was one of them. I am totally convinced I was a Christian in those days, I just didn't know the truth. Historical Armianism is truly a heresy, but many Christians who hold to free will are not Arminian in that sense. 

Second - pray that the Lord gives you the ability to establish friendships with your dorm mates. Take advantage of conversations as they present themselves. Don't try to force feed your views. See where you friendships lead. If they allow for conversation on Calvinism, then go there. Maybe a bible study will result from the interaction. I will certainly pray for you.


----------



## Sydnorphyn (Aug 18, 2007)

Patrick, 

Remember, you are living with Christian men before Arminians. Love your neighbor!

Grace and peace

John


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 18, 2007)

Patrick,

Just a note before I hit the sack (I'm preaching in the morning, and want a good sleep).

In my view, of paramount importance is your demeanor, or how you conduct yourself. When you hear foolish and unlearned talk of doctrine, you might ask (if appropriate at that time), "Are you interested in hearing a responsible opposing view?" A winsome attitude, and simple, clear statements, are attractive. You may even want to be a little more "laid-back" and judicious in picking your "teaching moments", seeing you will be in contact with these folks for a good while.

For over two years my wife and I attended an Arminian church here in my city, as we wanted to worship and fellowship with God's people, there being no Reformed church here, and we did not want to stay home and listen to tapes. After a while I was asked by the pastor to teach the adult Sunday school. I was able to minister God's word and Spirit to these people (and to the pastor) -- for almost three years. I had told the pastor upon first attending that church, "I need to fly my true colors so you know who I am and what I believe, and I also want to assure you I will not undermine your authority or doctrine in the church." He appreciated that. The only time I crossed that line was when some attending that church also attended a separate Bible study I was conducting (for Iranian believers), but I told the pastor of it. I respected and loved the man.

There is a reservoir of spiritual wealth you have within you because of the knowledge -- both mind-wise and heart-wise -- the doctrines of grace have enriched you with. Your knowledge of God and His marvelous providences for His children make you able to encourage and help others in their walks with Him. Arminianism hurts the soul deeply, and those who cleave to it are all too aware of the failure of the self-effort approach to obtaining God's favor. When others perceive that in you there is a quiet stream of living water from the throne of grace, they will want to drink of it.

If you conduct yourself prudently and winsomely the Lord may be pleased to use you to feed His sheep.

I will be praying for you, Patrick.

Steve


----------



## Ivan (Aug 18, 2007)

Excellent post, Steve. You took the words out of my mouth. I agree totally with your post.


----------



## Andrew P.C. (Aug 18, 2007)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Patrick,
> When others perceive that in you there is a quiet stream of living water from the throne of grace, they will want to drink of it.




This is a great saying.


----------



## Anton Bruckner (Aug 18, 2007)

Sydnorphyn said:


> Patrick,
> 
> Remember, you are living with Christian men before Arminians. Love your neighbor!
> 
> ...


Brian Schwertley on his recent sermon on Limited Atone (8.12.07) called Arminianism a damnable heresy


----------



## Herald (Aug 18, 2007)

Slippery said:


> Sydnorphyn said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick,
> ...



There is a difference for what passes as modern Arminianism and historical Arminianism.


----------



## Davidius (Aug 18, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Slippery said:
> 
> 
> > Sydnorphyn said:
> ...



Is there a difference between modern and historical Arminianism with regard to Limited Atonement? No modern Arminian believes that Christ's sacrifice was actually efficacious in any way other than to "open the way of salvation for anyone who will believe."


----------



## Anton Bruckner (Aug 18, 2007)

please guys, don't let this thread get sidetracked. i just wanted to liven it up a bit by giving one of Schwertley's outlandish statements.


----------



## Arch2k (Aug 18, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Slippery said:
> 
> 
> > Sydnorphyn said:
> ...


 
This is debatable. I would recommend reading Sproul's article The Pelagian Captivity of the Church which describes the semi-Pelagian view today as more Pelagian than even Arminian! But I don't wish to side-track this thread, but only to point out that there are good arguments for viewing the Arminian error as more dangerous than some.

How to live with them? I think that both sides would admit that you will have your hands full, and your use of apologetics will be crucial. You should absolutely love them, and try as best as you can to lead them into an orthodox understanding of the gospel. I have had the privilege of leading my current boss through the doctrines of grace in the last few years, and he recently thanked me saying that it was life changing for him. If I were you, I would really try to understand the Arminian arguments, and the Calvinistic arguements that you will be ready to give an answer. Also, it will be important that you come across in a Christian manner, not trying to beat them over the head with your bible, but in a gracious manner, showing them the inconsistencies of their worldview. If these people like to read (which many probably will not), purchasing books on these subjects can be a real eye opener as well.

I wish you well brother!


----------



## CatechumenPatrick (Aug 18, 2007)

I think Steve (and a few others) summed it up well. How we conduct ourselves and how we respond to people is extremely important in witnessing and apologetics: in the past my witnessing to both Christians and non-Christians has had the most success when I responded politely and respectfully, even if I was not as articulate and persuasive in my defense or response as I could or should have been. That applies even more so when people do not simply object to Christianity or the Reformed worldview, but attack, misrepresent, and disrespect it. Jeff--your response reminded me of F. Schaffer's apologetics, and how much he loved those whom he witnessed to. I do not think it would side-track this thread to question the nature of Arminian theology--historical and modern--and whether or not it is heretical or worthy of condemnation, because the question has a direct bearing on how we as Reformed Christians witness to them. I am inclined to make a distinction between the Arminian as a person and his or her theology or worldview (not that the distinction between the person and the worldview can be absolutely maintained, as it clearly cannot): ultimately, the salvation of the Arminian comes down to the sovereign will and mercy of God, but if we hold to the 3 Forms or the Westminster Standards, we must concede that the Arminian gospel is in some respects a different gospel, and that numerous doctrines in the Arminian worldview are unbiblical and thus possibly heretical, depending on how loosely or strictly "heretical" is defined, so the Arminian worldview could rightly be condemned by God. I view my role as a Christian witness living with other Christians whom hold false doctrines, especially false doctrines as serve as that of Arminianism, in many ways as dire as when I lived with non-Christians. These Christians, whom I view, prima facie, brothers and sisters in Christ, hold dangerous, false beliefs on major points, and thus it would be wrong of me to neglect my duties as a witness and defender (and student) of the biblical worldview. On that note, can anyone recommend any good debates between Arminians and Calvinists, whether online, audio, or written? Thanks for all your comments


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 19, 2007)

An afterthought, Patrick: As was mentioned above, making genuine friendships with your housemates is likely the context in which you will most deeply impact them with what the Lord has given you. Also, keep in mind that it _may_ (I wouldn't want to limit Him!) be the Lord will only give you one or a few of them to befriend on a deep level, and so influence their walks with Him.

A "servant-leader" heart is more attractive than a "gangbusters" (guns blazing) approach!


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Aug 19, 2007)

I have a lot to say on this but very little time. My experience over the last couple of years has been very similar to Steve's. Your dorm situation, however, is much different than a Church situation. There is a significant difference in attitude toward people that you worship with than people you just live with.

The first year at my Church was not easier and the second year has been no picnic but helped greatly by a Pastor (PastorFaulk) who loves the Lord and is sympathetic to Reformed theology. Christians to me are not Arminians or Calvinists but, by Baptism, those I have a responsibility toward. That makes all the difference in the view of error. Is it about how I'm offended by their error or how God is and whether I care about them, personally, to try to gently instruct?

I have labored hard and long to try and bring the Truth of the Word to those at the Church. It is not something you can go into half-heartedly or selfishly and, in spite of my whining to God and to my wife, the fruit has been immeasurable.

One key thing to remember is that terminology is not as important as people understanding the Word. I recently asked a dear Sister to stop joking around about the fact that I'm Presbyterian. I don't want people that I'm teaching side-tracked over a term that they might have a picture in their mind associated with. There's a larger goal in mind for me. I'm a member at a Baptist Church and I have to respect their sacramentology and ecclesiology even as I disagree with it. The Pastor recently preached on believer's baptism and was kind enough to personally call me and let me know that his sermon was not personal. I was thankful but expected him to be faithful to conscience and unabashed in the defense of his views.

When you start to "love on people" it really changes the way you approach them, especially if you see them as Christ's own instead of attaching labels to them. Instead of being angered by them, you grieve for _them_ when you see them struggling with error that they received from teachers in the past. Those kind of changes do not occur overnight and generations of prevailing wisdom are not so easily overcome (even in my own heart).

So, if you want to help, then don't announce you're a Calvinist. Don't announce that you're a Presbyterian. You are a Christian. They claim Christ so help them mature in their apprehension of Him. You may be the very instrument of their salvation, in fact. Don't use the TULIP acronym. Don't say "Total Depravity" but simply open up Romans 1 and start interacting with people humbly. Don't say "Unconditional Election" but labor with people to show them how blessed they are that God has surely saved them. I have not once announced: "I'm a Calvinist" to others but see my teaching on Romans at http://www.baptistchurch.jp/teaching.html When you invest in people it yields fruit. When you try to win debates, you'll lose the man for the sake of the argument.

In the end, be prepared for heartache and frustration. You'll be convinced by the Devil that it's not worth it but then you'll get occasional glimpses that what you're doing is bearing fruit.

I got this note from a dear Brother the other day. He had asked me about a chain prayer letter he received and asked me to comment on it. I explained to him how it was pagan and superstitious. His reply was as follows:


> Rich,
> It does become more clear when you break down the pray chain message, just like in Bible study that you break down Romans to us.
> Thanks for the insight. I will remember this when I get more pray chain messages.


That makes it all worthwhile.


----------



## A5pointer (Aug 19, 2007)

On that note, can anyone recommend any good debates between Arminians and Calvinists, whether online, audio, or written? Thanks for all your comments

James White aomin.org, When debating Calvinism against an Arminian who has thought this out and flat out rejects Calvinism be aware that there is much misinformation out there being fed to these people. Authors like Dave Hunt and Norman Geisler have written books on the subject that flat out misrepresent the subject historically and theologically. They also redfine vocabulary and terms to mean something they never did. This vocabulary gap will drive you crazy as you have discussions with these folks. It is helpful to learn what they have been taught by reading one of these books. You will then understand what they are thinking and can correct the misimformation they have stacked their conclusions on. Anybody else run into this? And as a final tip get ready for the endless adhomenum attacks against all the nasty Calvinists made up in peoples imaginations.


----------



## JohnOwen007 (Aug 19, 2007)

If the doctrines of grace are REALLY understood it will produce a *deep humility*, rather than a superior smugness. Humility in men is profound and enticing. It is the best advertisement of the truth of reformed theology.

God bless you.


----------



## Peter (Aug 19, 2007)

Slippery said:


> Sydnorphyn said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick,
> ...



The Apostle says (1 Cor 13) being uncharitable is a damnable heresy.


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 19, 2007)

A good book on the Reformed view vis-a-vis an Arminian is James White's, _The Potter's Freedom_

Amazon.com: The Potter's Freedom: A Defense of the Reformation and the Rebuttal of Norman Geisler's Choosen But Free: Books: James R. White

where he interacts with Norman Geisler's, _Chosen But Free_. I don't really recommend Giesler's work unless you want to see the Arminian view presented at length, as White fairly quotes NG in his own book. 

There are key verses (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9, etc) misapplied by Arminians one should know how to explicate properly, in order to interact with them in an edifying manner. Also the use of the phrases or words such as "all men", "the world" etc needs to be understood as they are often misapplied. As someone noted above, it is good to study the exegeses of scholarly Arminians and their rebuttal by Reformed saints to get a good grasp of the arguments that may be used. John Owen's book, _The Death of Death in the Death of Christ_, and John Gill's, _The Cause of God and Truth_ are both good resources for Reformed exegesis of these things.

As Rich (and others) pointed out, it is always good to keep in mind that the person we are talking with may have more pressing and crucial needs than the doctrines we might like them to appreciate. A stable, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus comes to mind as likely the foremost. Reformed souls have a great advantage there as the doctrines of grace naturally tend to engender just this. It is what He has done for us -- and is to us -- that take priority over what we should do for Him. Many folks are on a religious performance treadmill, and they have no rest, and no assurance of His acceptance or love. As Rich said, one may open these joyous revelations in God's word to them without using the "Reformed buzzwords" that may turn them off, seeing as we have often gotten a bad press which lingers in many minds. I include even the Bible version issue: there are matters that come before that as well. 

Do we love these erring believers, or just want to have them conform to orthodoxy? Without love there is no genuine edification (1 Cor 8:1).


----------



## CatechumenPatrick (Aug 19, 2007)

I've tried to shy away and avoid using the common labels--Calvinism, TULIP, et al--because I want to reach people (Christians and non-) at more than the level of labels, and also because these terms are highly misunderstood. I can't say that I fully understand the Reformed, Biblical faith, obviously, and when all that many people have heard about "Calvinism" and the "TULIP" are characterizations and misconceptions, I cannot expect to communicate on the basis of such labels. I think Reformed is synonymous with Biblical; I recognize that witnessing to other, different Christians is not about winning debates and getting them to accept a Reformed orthodoxy, it is about pointing them to Christ as he truly is in every part of Scripture and life. 
Actually, getting past the labels is the largest hurdle I have had in witnessing, because for many Christians and non-Christians, their worldview does not go much deeper than a set of labels. I am friends with many people in my fellowship and especially those whom I will be living with. What makes it a challenge, however, is rooted in a concept I took from James Sire called "plausibility structures". It basically means that the more people around you that believe what you believe, the easier it is to believe it and the harder it becomes to question it. So when most of the fellowship either absolutely hates "Calvinism", or could care less about doctrine or beliefs, then I find myself outside of a bubble that is nearly impossible to penetrate, regardless of how humble and friendly I am (which is something I need to work on anyways). As hesitant to "fly my true colors" as I have been, so to speak, I have still already found myself loosing friends, loosing respect, loosing tolerance, over my Reformed beliefs. I am willing to do that, but I am afraid it compromises my witnessing.


----------

