# Advice from Presbyterians



## Reformedfellow (Apr 3, 2012)

Particular doctrines


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## Christopher88 (Apr 3, 2012)

Doctrinal speaking? 
Covenant Theology is huge and will be practiced with Infant baptism. (Laymen at least in my local PCA church, do not have to hold to that view) 
The Sacraments are Baptism and Communion. They have meaning, there not just an ordinance. 

Of course you would expect Calvinism and such. 


Church government is run different than in the Baptist Church, however I will allow a wiser Presbyterian to discuss the church order as my limited knowledge would do harm to your question.


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## Scott1 (Apr 3, 2012)

There is not a way to comprehensively answer that question in this forum- the differences between Presbyterian and Reformed.

"Reformed" (v. "broadly evangelical") means at minimum:

Doctrines of Grace ("Calvinism") + covenant theology + confession

v.

"Broadly evangelical:"

Arminian influence + Dispensationalism + no (accountable) confession

Some of us would add a "high" (v. low) view of the sacraments and a a "high" (v. low) view of the church.

So, Presbyterians and "reformed" have all the above in common.

The most noticeable difference is church government, and could be infant baptism if you come from another communion.


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## Scott1 (Apr 3, 2012)

Presbyterian is a term for a group of elders, not by one man at the top.

So, it's more like a ruling council rather than a President.

Our Lord Himself appoints and confirms elders who teach and rule (shepherd) in the local church, often called covenant community. ("covenant" because members are covenanted together to serve God in this world).

In all presbyterian denominations I'm aware of- the congregation confirms those in authority of over them by vote. That's part of the "external" call required for office. (It's not enough to just say one "feels led" to be a minister, there needs to be a "call" or there is no biblical office).

The church is actually governed by elders and deacons, each in their own sphere, with authority springing directly from our Lord.

A teaching elder might also be called a Minister or a Pastor, but he is one among many.


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## sastark (Apr 3, 2012)

Colin: Where in Japan are you located? My brother lives in Osaka and is attending a Presbyterian church there. If you are in that area, I'd be happy to give you his contact information.


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## he beholds (Apr 3, 2012)

Are you near Chiba? We know of a church in Chiba.
Here's an explanation of the PCJ from the PCA's Mission to the World.


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## Jack K (Apr 3, 2012)

Reformedfellow said:


> *a side note*
> both of these Churches observe the practice in every Sunday service, which many other Churches here in Japan observe, where they all take turns (one by one) in reading out a big block of scripture verse by verse. This includes the women. Where does this fall under the, to my understanding, "women speaking in Church, praying/reading scripture aloud in public worship" issue?



I for one see no problem with the congregation, as a group, reciting Scripture as a part of worship. There doesn't seem to be any perceived church authority in that, even if members take turns reading a verse at a time rather than speaking all together. Responsive congregational recitation of Scripture has a place in Reformed tradition, and this sounds similar to that. I wouldn't equate it with the same public reading of Scripture done by a pastor.

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As for picking a church... How well do they faithfully preach and teach the gospel (orthodoxy)? How well do they show love for one another (orthopraxy)? The church that best answers these questions will likely be the best place for you. If you find that one of these congregations hits home runs on both questions, I wouldn't worry too much about the Presbyterian thing.


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## darrellmaurina (Apr 3, 2012)

I wonder if the questioner is thinking of the difference between the continental Reformed tradition and the Anglo-Scottish Presbyterian tradition when he's asking his question about the difference between being Reformed and being Presbyterian?

What little I know about the Reformed Church of Japan is outdated and likely not going to be helpful. I know even less about the PCJ, the Presbyterian Church of Japan. My guess is that due to the small size of a typical Japanese church and the need to cooperate in missions there aren't going to be significant differences between a RCJ and a PCJ based on the theological heritage of which missionaries started the denomination, but there could be major differences between where the denominations stand today theologically.

I definitely would have some serious "yellow flags" about the RCJ, but that has to do with denominational issues from a decade ago and I have no idea whether they've been resolved, and if they have been resolved, what the outcome was.

Perhaps some of the Orthodox Presbyterian and RPCNA people on the Puritan Board could contact the foreign missions offices or missionaries in-country via email to get better information?


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## johnc (Apr 3, 2012)

Reformedfellow said:


> In Japan, I think what makes a Presbyterian church (over another) is that they hold to the reformed "traditions" and place on emphasis on the Westminster Confession.
> As far as Church ordinance and government goes, I think it is not very well structured or followed with much strict observance.



Colin,

I attended a Presbyterian Church in Japan (PCJ) church for almost 5 years. I can say for a fact that the PCJ uses a session of elders and a diaconate. So, I don't think you can characterize all Presbyterian churches in Japan as only holding to reformed traditions. I also thought the PCJ's government was very structured with fairly frequent presbytery meetings.. The PCJ does allow women deacons, however, and the church I attended had half the diaconate as women and half men. 

John


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## Christopher88 (Apr 3, 2012)

Reformedfellow said:


> How does "covenant theology" differ from what is regularly taught/practiced/believed at other non-Presbyterian reformed Churches?



I have read your post, but because of my lack of knowledge to answer this with bold truth and support I am going to allow another Puritan member to answer.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 3, 2012)

I think there is some talking past each other in this thread. The OP refers to the Reformed Church in Japan. As Darrell Maurina indicates, (and is indicated by a Google search) that is a group that is related to the Dutch Reformed and perhaps the Christian Reformed Church of North America and associated churches specifically. In that case it is more of a difference between Continental Reformed and Anglo/Scottish Reformed. 

Perhaps Colin is simply not familiar with the terminology and history (and the similarity of the Continental Reformed and British Reformed/Presbyterianism) and thus people are getting the idea that that the RCJ is not a Reformed denomination with regard to its lineage and history. Now, whether the church is liberal or not I have no idea but Darrell indicates some theological problems going back a decade. If it is associated with the CRC that is not surprising. 

Scott, I wonder how many times you've cut and pasted what you did in post #3? Or is it memorized by now?  Also, there are plenty of churches that aren't specifically Presbyterian that have an "accountable confession." Some are a lot more accountable to their confession and take it much more seriously than what you have in the PCA, which is very loose in many presbyteries, though not all of course. Now you may mean Presbyterian polity in particular here, but that's not clear by the language you're using.


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## johnc (Apr 3, 2012)

Reformedfellow said:


> Thanks John.
> Since I had never been to any Presbyterian Church before, I could not say for sure. I was simply going by what my experience with Japanese churches has been, and the "similarities" I see based on internet research.
> There is a quote from the link that Jessica shared which made me a bit curious;
> 
> ...



Colin,

If you pm me, I can give you some of my experiences in the PCJ and thoughts about attending a PCJ church. I wouldn't say that the PCJ and PCA are that similar at all, although they have a relationship through MTW.

The PCA does not allow women deacons or pastors, but there has been some controversy with churches trying to change this or get around this, e.g., not ordaining any deacons. This has been covered on a number of internet blogs and probably this board as well. I have no idea where the phrase 'same position' came from or what it is supposed to imply.


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## Scott1 (Apr 3, 2012)

Pilgrim said:


> Now you may mean Presbyterian polity in particular here


Yes, and that seems to be what the original post is inquiring about.


Pilgrim said:


> Also, there are plenty of churches that aren't specifically Presbyterian that have an "accountable confession."


 Yes, such as the URC, Dutch Reformed, etc. and the London Baptist Confession communions, etc.
(But the thread is about what's a Presbyterian church like)




Pilgrim said:


> and take it much more seriously than what you have in the PCA,


Not sure what your basis of evaluation is for that assertion, nor that it's relevant to this thread.


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## Jack K (Apr 3, 2012)

Reformedfellow said:


> Does the PCA also allow women elders, pastors? I am curious what this "same position" is. In pretty much all Japanese Churches, women serve (or can serve) as Pastors. At the very least women also lead in prayer and read the scriptures from the pulpit.



Some (but surely not all) PCA churches will allow women to read Scripture from the front. But the PCA expressly does not allow women elders or pastors nor allow women to officially preach, though I imagine there are churches here and there where women have, on occasion, given talks that came close.

Since you're concerned about the particular issue of women's roles in the church, I suspect you're going to have to find out how the particular church you're looking at does it. A general statement that "they're like the PCA" is not going to be specific enough to answer your question.


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## he beholds (Apr 4, 2012)

Sorry! I thought it was pretty bizarre that there were two people in Japan who recently joined the PB and were looking for a church! Your signature has changed, or something, so I didn't recognize you! The RPCNA is another Presbyterian denomination in the US who has churches in Japan. I don't know where any of these places are, but here's a link with church locations. The RPCNA does ordain women as deacons, but that's usually a church-by-church decision, from what I can tell (and not extremely common, as far as I know). And they did once also discuss women elders, but they did not vote to go with that. I think that has probably been a conversation had in many denominations, and who knows which faction brought the question up, so just talking about it once would not sound alarms for me. The RPCNA sings Pslams A capella, which I imagine is one major difference between the PCJ churches and the RPCNA in Japan churches. 

One thing I've heard about Japan is that the men aren't very willing to go to church and thus a lot of the congregations are majority female. Perhaps that can account for women deacons being necessary. I understand if you think that it's unbiblical that you won't care about the reasons for the practice. 




Reformedfellow said:


> "One major difference is that the PCJ does not ordain their deacons, and has men and women serve. They debated and studied women’s elder ordination and came to basically the same position as the PCA."
> 
> I had a hard time understanding this. Does the PCA also allow women elders, pastors? I am curious what this "same position" is. In pretty much all Japanese Churches, women serve (or can serve) as Pastors. At the very least women also lead in prayer and read the scriptures from the pulpit. Going by what you have shared though, I can assume that the PCJ is quite similar then to this?


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