# second Vatican counsel



## johnny_redeemed (Nov 5, 2006)

Is anyone familiar with the passage from the second Vatican counsel that states that this counsel is not going to overturn any previous counsels and that the teaching in it should be understood in light of previous counsels?


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## johnny_redeemed (Nov 5, 2006)

The reason for this is I am trying to share with a fellow Christian that Catholics still do not hold to justification by faith alone. He says that the second Vatican counsel teaches this. That is, that now Romans Catholics have a biblical view of justification. I want to find this passage to show that the second Vatican counsel cannot teach a contradictory doctrine to the counsel of Trent.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 5, 2006)

Just read the Catholic Catechism, fully endorsed by the Church, even the Pope as their authoritative doctrine. They still teach the same old Trent view on justification.


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## johnny_redeemed (Nov 5, 2006)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Just read the Catholic Catechism, fully endorsed by the Church, even the Pope as their authoritative doctrine. They still teach the same old Trent view on justification.



Do you know which question I could look at to find this?


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 5, 2006)

*Myths about Vatican II*

Vatican II did not overturn the magisterial teaching of the Roman Church on justification. Vatican II was Rome's belated attempt to make nice with Modernity by adopting some language from Karl Rahner about anonymous Christians and by allowing the vernacular mass. In short Vatican II gave us guitar masses but no substantive change in Rome's doctrine of justification. 

The Catholic Catechism cites Trent repeatedly as an authority for it's doctrine of justification (below). As anyone can see there's no real difference between this doctrine and Trent's. The numbers preceding are not dates but paragraph numbers. 

I think you want _council_ instead of counsel.



> *Article 2*
> 
> *GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION*
> 
> ...





johnny_redeemed said:


> Do you know which question I could look at to find this?


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## johnny_redeemed (Nov 7, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Vatican II did not overturn the magisterial teaching of the Roman Church on justification.


 
Just so I understand you completely, you make this statement on the fact that the Catechism still teaches a Trent view on justification. Is this right?

Further, when was the passage you quoted above written? I would like to know it in relationship to Vatican II. 

Thank you for your help and time.


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## ZackF (Dec 18, 2006)

johnny_redeemed said:


> Just so I understand you completely, you make this statement on the fact that the Catechism still teaches a Trent view on justification. Is this right?
> 
> Further, when was the passage you quoted above written? I would like to know it in relationship to Vatican II.
> 
> Thank you for your help and time.



The new (1992, 1997) versions of the Catholic Catechism quote VII heavily which in turn refers to Trent. The Tridentine doctrine still holds...man can't merit _initial_ justification however.....it goes downhill from there. 

Best Wishes

Zack
Former Catholic Catechist


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