# Split within the PCUSA



## Weston Stoler (Oct 8, 2011)

Do you think the PCusa would split over the new norm of homosexuality being accepted? Although it is a very liberal denomination do you think that those who are of the more conservative branch who do not accept the new ruling would split?


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## Edward (Oct 8, 2011)

No. Most of the folks who are leaving have left. Most of the rest are staying because of property, or they think that they will be left alone if they stay quiet enough. A few more congregations will trickle out, but a current push is for a church within the church concept to create a 'safe haven' for the moderates. This may well include the payment of 'protection' money to the 'liberals'.

It may be more relevant to ask if the PCA is going to split.


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## Philip (Oct 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> It may be more relevant to ask if the PCA is going to split.



Over what, precisely?


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## Edward (Oct 8, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Over what, precisely?



Broadly, failure to enforce standards at the Presbytery level in a number of presbyteries. And remember, the GA only acted a few years ago when Westminster Presbytery threatened to bolt. FV, role of women as officers, dispensationalism, subscriptionalism, regulative principals of worship; it will reach a critical mass at some point.


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## elnwood (Oct 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> Broadly, failure to enforce standards at the Presbytery level in a number of presbyteries. And remember, the GA only acted a few years ago when Westminster Presbytery threatened to bolt. FV, role of women as officers, dispensationalism, subscriptionalism, regulative principals of worship; it will reach a critical mass at some point.



But why would that generate a split? Why wouldn't such congregations simply move over to the OPC?


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 8, 2011)

As a former PCAer, and one who is aware of division within the local PCA presbytery, I agree with Edward. I should like to hope the split of the PCA (and any PCUSA split), if it is necessary, will result in a realignment of churches and denominations rather than creating new ones. There are so many good ones (too many!) already out there.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 8, 2011)

I am in favor of a National Synod where the ARP, PCA, OPC, and anyone else that wants to join in has a "church draft" so that the folks who favor strict confessionalism in the ARP, PCA, OPC, etc. can join together and focus on healthier things than continuing to but heads against the softies and broad evangelicals in their respective denominations.


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## Philip (Oct 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> P. F. Pugh said:
> 
> 
> > Over what, precisely?
> ...



Some of these may be valid concerns, others (like FV) are, frankly, dead-end stagnations. Alll of them, though, are coming from different quarters. I don't think many FVers are going to be broadly evangelical, any more than I think that Tim Keller is ever going to be FV, and neither one are going to be dispensational. Regulative principle and confessionalism, though, have always been interpreted rather broadly in the PCA: that was part of the original intent in a denomination made up of breakaway PCUSA congregations on the one hand and breakaway BPC/RPCES churches and institutions on the other.


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## Edward (Oct 8, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Why wouldn't such congregations simply move over to the OPC?



That would be a split. But let's face it, there are significant differences in approach to missions, church planting, etc. at this point. 

Frankly, the congregation to which I belong is in the moderate middle of the PCA and would probably be a better fit with the EPC than the OPC. 

And I've probably hijacked this thread. 




Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I am in favor of a National Synod where the ARP, PCA, OPC, and anyone else that wants to join in has a "church draft" so that the folks who favor strict confessionalism in the ARP, PCA, OPC, etc. can join together and focus on healthier things than continuing to but heads against the softies and broad evangelicals in their respective denominations.



I think that would be a wonderful idea, but let's expand it. The PCA would be a more peaceful place if about 10% went to CREC, 10% to EPC or ARP, and 10% to OPC or a conservative body (and let's encourage a few to become independent Dispensational Bible churches as well. The PCA could probably appeal to about 10% of the OPC, and perhaps pick up a few from the ARP as well.


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## Philip (Oct 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> I think that would be a wonderful idea, but let's expand it. The PCA would be a more peaceful place if about 10% went to CREC, 10% to EPC or ARP, and 10% to OPC or a conservative body (and let's encourage a few to become independent Dispensational Bible churches as well. The PCA could probably appeal to about 10% of the OPC, and perhaps pick up a few from the ARP as well.



Probably so (though I seriously doubt that 10% of our churches are FV). However, it would be a much poorer body as well, in my opinion. I count it as a strength of the denomination that we have such a broad representation of reformed thought and practice. Are there fringes that need to be dealt with? Yes, but prayerfully and with a care not to trim too much. We don't want to be the PCUSA, but neither do we want to go to the opposite extreme.


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## Edward (Oct 8, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> though I seriously doubt that 10% of our churches are FV



They seem to be able to muster a majority in several presbyteries.


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## Philip (Oct 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> P. F. Pugh said:
> 
> 
> > though I seriously doubt that 10% of our churches are FV
> ...



Only one or two---and even then it's rather tenuous whether these Presbyteries are actually dominated by FV, or whether they just have significant numbers of people who just disagree with the GA's ruling.

I think that, what with the lack of seminaries, we'll see FV go by the wayside in the next 5-10 years. That's my perception, anyway (though I'll gladly defer to those more well-acquainted with the issues and individuals than I).


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## Edward (Oct 8, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Only one or two



Or 3 or 4...


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 8, 2011)

A discussion of the PCA and FV does not belong here. 
And, frankly, if you think you should defer to more informed folk, don't give an opinion in the first place.
Now, continue on the topic or take other topics to other threads.


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## BJClark (Oct 13, 2011)

> Do you think the PCusa would split over the new norm of homosexuality being accepted? Although it is a very liberal denomination do you think that those who are of the more conservative branch who do not accept the new ruling would split?



I don't know how many will leave, but I know of at least ONE in my area that has left, over this issue.

I'm not sure who they are affiliated with at this point, as they still have the Presbyterian sign hanging in front of their church --with the PC-USA right under it blacked out....Which they did months ago..


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## Moireach (Oct 13, 2011)

Sigh, is there anything more depressing than schism?
I live in a village of 1500 people with 4 a Capella Exclusively Psalm singing congregations, identical in internal practice, separated by denominations. If only the reformed could unite, who knows how!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Oct 13, 2011)

The PCUSA is in the process of "splitting" now. The question as to how many churches with the inclindation to depart actually get out depends on how hard the "property trust" hammer is swung by the Synods via the puppet presbyteries.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 13, 2011)

One of the PCUSA congregations became EPC here. They were graciously allowed to keep their property.


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## Hawaiian Puritan (Oct 14, 2011)

The 2008 PCUSA GA, I believe it was, urged presbyteries to adopt policies for "gracious dismissal" for churches that concluded they could no longer stay in the PCUSA. Some presbyteries have done that, others have not. They have also been inconsistent in how they have applied them to churches seeking to leave.


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