# Should pastors with honorary degrees call themselves "doctor"?



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 5, 2011)

There seems to be an awful lot of big name pastors, especially amongst my baptist brethren, who have only honorary doctorates who none the less refer to themselves Dr. so and so. Some of these men I have a great deal of respect for, such as John Macarthur. My question is, while there is certainly nothing wrong with accepting an honorary degree, is it right for someone to refer to themselves as doctor when they haven't actually earned a doctorate degree? Mt personal feeling is that it is wrong. What do you think?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MMasztal (Apr 5, 2011)

No, they shouldn’t.


----------



## Wayne (Apr 5, 2011)

The honorary doctorate seems to have fallen out of use in large part, at least among Presbyterians.
It was rather common in the 19th century. More recently, Francis Schaeffer received an honorary doctorate.

Does that latter fact change your viewpoint at all? Properly, an honorary doctorate would be a way to acknowledge 
the accomplishments in someone's life. High standards can be upheld in this practice, but again, it seems a moot
point, at least around these parts.


----------



## Berean (Apr 5, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> such as John Macarthur




I don't believe his degrees are honorary. They are listed as... Here

*B.A., Los Angeles Pacific College
M.Div., Talbot Theological Seminary
Litt.D., Grace Graduate School
D.D., Talbot Theological Seminary*

Reactions: Sad 1


----------



## DMcFadden (Apr 5, 2011)

There are honorary degrees and there are honorary degrees.

Few people have written as many books and commentaries as Dr. MacArthur, more than 150 at last count!!!

When an honorary degree is granted to one who is rewarded for being famous (Hollywood types who do commencement addresses), that is one thing. But, when the honoree is truly deserving that is another.

Some of the greatest contributors to the cause did not have doctoral degrees (e.g., Machen). And, for most of his career, Dr. R.C. Sproul (one of my favorites), was "Dr" because of his "Drs." degree from Free University of Amsterdam (not exactly equivalent to our terminal doctoral degrees in the US; I realize that in more recent years he earned a PhD from Whitefield as well). 

So, my answer is . . . it depends. 

Dr. MacArthur? Dr. Benjamin Franklin? Dr. Billy Graham? No problem. 

Dr. Stephen Colbert? Dr. Hunter S. Thompson? Dr. Chris Matthews? Dr. Glenn Beck? Dr. Dolly Parton? Dr. Clint Eastwood? Dr. Arnold Schwarzenegger? Dr. Tim Allen? Dr. Larry King? Dr. Muhammad Ali (Princeton yet!). You've got to be kidding!


----------



## DMcFadden (Apr 5, 2011)

Berean said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > such as John Macarthur
> ...


 
D.D. is almost *always* an honorary degree when awarded in the 20th and 21st centuries. As a Californian, I can verify the fact that his D.D. is honorary. However, he has achieved more than most earned doctorates with more than 150 books to his credit. BTW, the Litt.D. is also an honorary degree.

Los Angeles Pacific College is now The Master's College.

Talbot awarded MacArthur his honorary degree (if memory serves me), decades ago when MacArthur had around 100 Talbot students in an extension satellite program meeting at Grace Community Church where MacArthur was and is the pastor. Ironically, MacArthur eventually incorporated the Talbot extension into the structure of The Master's College as its graduate program for theological education. At the time it left some pretty raw feelings between Biola/Talbot and MacArthur devotees. Talbot felt wronged and believed that MacArthur "stole" the seminary from them; MacArthur believed that Talbot had compromised its principles and watered down its Bible requirements in order to get accreditation. Eventually, some of the old Talbot profs (e.g., Thomas, Rosscup) went with MacArthur and the change of venue to "The Master's" umbrella. I assume that feelings are normal between the two institutions now, but have no first hand recent information on the subject.

[Trivia note: the daughter of Louis Talbot was a resident in the retirement community I lead. She passed away fairly recently.]


----------



## SCharles (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't think an individual should generally refer to themselves as "Doctor" even with an earned doctorate. It seems in bad taste to accent your own credentials. 

For honorary doctorates, you should never refer to yourself as "doctor."


----------



## Kevin (Apr 6, 2011)

Pre-nominal Honourifics (the "Dr" or "Rev" or "Sir" that comes before someones name) should NEVER be used by the individual. It is proper however to use them when refering to the person by a third party. However, this is only to be done when refering to them by their full name. I.e. "Dr John Smith", "Rev. John Smith", or "Sir John Smith". and never "Dr Smith", etc. The reason is that your name is the one that you were baptised with, and not the one that includes the honourific.

So I call myself "Kevin Rogers". If asked for my title (it happens) I say "Rev. Kevin Rogers". I am properly introduced as "Rev. Kevin Rogers", but never as "Rev. Rogers". The reason behind this rule is that the use of an honourific is to distinguish an individual "Dr John Smith" from all others with the name "John Smith". This is the same process by which our surnames evolved. A Scotsman named William (say) was styled "William Laird" because he was a "Laird" (i.e. a landowner). In time the name became a part of the family and his desendants are now all named Laird. It no longer sets the "William" that owned land apart from the other Williams that were tennants in the same parrish.

So over time post-nominals became surnames. Pre-nominals however, have not reached that status. We have however retained a bit of the older post-nominal usage by appending professional designations to the end of our names. MDiv, PhD, CPA, JD, as well as honourary distinctions such as OBE, KC, OC, VC, etc are still in use.

So, if I am a man with many appellations added to my name to honour my service, or for other reasons I am still "Kevin Rogers". And that is what I call myself. I may properly add all post-nominal designations to my name in formal settings, such as formal correspondence. However pre-nominal designations are to be used by others to distinguish me from others that share my christian name & my surname.

So an other person may call me "The Rt. Rev. Dr. Kevin Rogers". And I may sign letters as "Kevin Rogers ONB, DD". But when I introduce myself to someone I am still just "Kevin Rogers".


----------



## Wayne (Apr 6, 2011)

Slightly afield, but I understand that the practice in Europe, when addressing someone with *two* earned doctorates, is to address them as 

"Doctor Doctor _______"


----------



## Kevin (Apr 6, 2011)

Wayne, that remineds me...

A few years ago I worked with a man that was very "qualified". He had PhD is one of the sciences, he worked for the US Army as a scientist & held the rank (signal corp, as I recall) of a Brig. Gen. He also had an MDiv and was ordained in his church. Since the church was Episcopal he became , first a Bishop, and then a Presiding Bishop.

So he was "Gen X" as well as "Dr X", as well as "Rev. X", not to mention "Rt. Rev. X"!

The first time that we had lunch together I asked how I should refer to him. He said that eclessiastical titles held preference & so came first. Accedemic titles were second, and military titles were third. 

So his title was "the Rt. Rev. Dr. Gen. X"! that sounds about right.


----------



## Jack K (Apr 6, 2011)

I learned that a person with only an honorary doctorate should not be referred to as "Dr." by anyone. That was the rule in the news business, anyway. It seems the rule is slipping a bit. But I would hope pastors especially honor that rule. It's unwise and presumptuous to assume a title others are likely to question.


----------



## JonathanHunt (Apr 6, 2011)

If an honorary doctorate is awarded for specific work done (an inmportant theological and practical book in the case of one pastor I know) then I consider it as earned as any other. If it is just a general honouring of the person, then perhaps not. But who are we to judge? Persons receiving honorary degrees are informed by the awarding institution what they may and may not do with the same.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 6, 2011)

Berean said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > such as John Macarthur
> ...


 
Both of his doctorates are honorary. You can find this out on his website, He does not try to hide it.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## jwithnell (Apr 6, 2011)

I believe the only appropriate titles within the church would be "pastor" or "elder" or "deacon." In an academic setting, the honorific should be used if it is a custom of that institution.


----------



## jawyman (Apr 6, 2011)

Jerry Bridges' doctorate is honourary, yet at the Banner of Truth conference at Grantham, PA last year, he was always addressed and introduced as "Dr." Jerry Bridges. I was unaware of the fact his degree was honourary until I looked at the back of one his books. I was somewhat disappointed his degree was earned in the traditional academic sense.


----------



## greenbaggins (Apr 6, 2011)

My father has an earned Ph.D. in the field of Physics, and he never refers to himself as "Dr. Keister," except in teaching situations. I think it is appropriate for my father to call himself that when he is teaching Physics at a college. Similarly, if an earned Ph.D. wanted to call himself "Dr." in a class where he was teaching in the field of his doctorate, I wouldn't have any problem with that. But the circumstances would (I would hope!) dictate reason on this. For my father to go to Johns Hopkins Hospital and call himself "Dr. Keister" could lead to a serious misunderstanding! As to honorary degrees, I think it is not very helpful, wise, or humble for the person to refer to _himself_ by the appellation "Dr.," but I would have no problem with someone ELSE talking about him as "Dr. So-and-So."


----------



## Grillsy (Apr 6, 2011)

I would rather someone with an honorary doctorate call his/herself "Dr." than someone who got theirs from a diploma mill.

It seems like that latter is a problem, especially among certain individuals. You can see these individuals on TBN.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 6, 2011)

I once got into an email debate with someone who worked for Johnny Hunt, who used to be president of the SBC and has a huge church in Atlanta. Pastor Hunt also has a couple of honorary degrees, but the guy who worked for him kept insisting that Pastor Hunt never called himself Dr and didn't allow anyone else to. I found that to be a little disingenuous considering the huge sign outside the church said "Dr. Johnny Hunt, Pastor" and the Pastor Hunt's website had a big section called "About Dr. Hunt." etc. I don't have a problem with people getting honorary degrees, but please don't try to tell me that "he never calls himself or allows others to call him doctor" when it is on the sign in front of his church in giant letters.


----------



## Berean (Apr 6, 2011)

DMcFadden said:


> D.D. is almost always an honorary degree when awarded in the 20th and 21st centuries. As a Californian, I can verify the fact that his D.D. is honorary. However, he has achieved more than most earned doctorates with more than 150 books to his credit. BTW, the Litt.D. is also an honorary degree.




Thanks for the clarification, Dennis.


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 6, 2011)

Brother MacArthur has been preaching through Mark and within the last few weeks mentioned how even the evangelical church is to some degree caught up with titles in order to bring honor to oneself. He said that he is perfectly happy with just "John," and he doesn't care for all the extra titles to lift him up. I think his balance here is admirable: he does not take any offense when called "Dr. MacArthur" and is comfortable using titles when referring to others, but he does not _desire_ to lift himself above others by being referred to with honorific titles. That's a helpful example.


----------



## Philip (Apr 6, 2011)

DMcFadden said:


> D.D. is almost always an honorary degree when awarded in the 20th and 21st centuries.



Unless awarded at Oxford or Cambridge.


----------

