# Orthodox Lutherans and Anglicans.



## Coram Deo (Apr 9, 2008)

What would be the most orthodox Reformed Lutheran Church Today? Is there any still with Luther's original views that would accept the 5 heads or Canons of Dort and still be orthodox in other areas?

Missouri Synod is pretty orthodox but I do not believe they hold to all 5 points of the canons of Dort... So is there a more Reformed group of Lutherans out there?


I am assuming the "Traditional Protestant Episcopal Church" T.P.E.C,, is the most orthodox Reformed Anglican church today?


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## sastark (Apr 9, 2008)

I would think (although others may know better than I) that the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) is the most orthodox Reformed Anglican church around today.

Not sure about Lutherans, but I'd guess LCMS.


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## sastark (Apr 9, 2008)

PS- I've never heard of the TPEC before. I googled them, found this site (The Protestant Alliance: An Outreach Ministry of The Traditional Protestant Episcopal Church), but can't seem to find a directory of congregations. Is there one?


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## Coram Deo (Apr 9, 2008)

The REC has strayed in many ways and many of the bishops are more anglo-Catholic like......



The TPEC is even more traditional and Orthodox and Reformed then the REC......

I saw a directory one time, but I have misplaced it right now.... Let me see if I can find it....


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## cih1355 (Apr 9, 2008)

The WELS is supposed to be a Bible-believing Lutheran denomination.


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 9, 2008)

WELS and ELS are by far the most conservative Lutheran denoms out there. There views justification wise are orthodox but Calvinistic they are not. The LCMS, I believe seperated from WELS over this issue of women voting in congregational matters among other issues.


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## dannyhyde (Apr 9, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> What would be the most orthodox Reformed Lutheran Church Today? Is there any still with Luther's original views that would accept the 5 heads or Canons of Dort and still be orthodox in other areas?
> 
> Missouri Synod is pretty orthodox but I do not believe they hold to all 5 points of the canons of Dort... So is there a more Reformed group of Lutherans out there?



Michael,

1. There is no such thing as a "Reformed Lutheran Church." There is a reason there are Reformed churches and Lutheran churches.

2. What do you mean by "Luther's original views that would accept the 5 heads or Canons of Dort?" Luther and Lutheran Orthodoxy have never accepted Limited Atonement, for example. Do you have evidence otherwise?


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## toddpedlar (Apr 9, 2008)

dannyhyde said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > What would be the most orthodox Reformed Lutheran Church Today? Is there any still with Luther's original views that would accept the 5 heads or Canons of Dort and still be orthodox in other areas?
> ...



Thanks, Danny - was my question also...


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 9, 2008)

Among Anglican churches alot depends on the particular congregation. There are "Calvinistic" Anglicans and more "Arminian" ones that often coexist within the same denomination whether REC, APA, CANA, or what have you.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 9, 2008)

I knew there were differences between the Lutheran and Reformed Churches Historically.. Especially over matters such as the regulative principle for the Reformed, and the doctrine of Ubiquity in the Eucharist for the Lutherans... And a few more, but those were "I believe" the largest.

But I was using the word "Reformed" in the broadest form.. Meaning Calvinistic... 
I thought Luther affirmed Limited Atonement in his Bondage of the Will... Maybe I need to dust off the book and reread it..... I thought my memory served me that Luther was a 5 point calvinist except he denied double predestination and it was Melanchthon who turned the Lutherans away from Luther's views....







dannyhyde said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > What would be the most orthodox Reformed Lutheran Church Today? Is there any still with Luther's original views that would accept the 5 heads or Canons of Dort and still be orthodox in other areas?
> ...


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 9, 2008)

Luther's views regarding predestination were Augustinian in origin though he did differ from Augusine at points. I certainly wouldn't consider Augustine a "5 point Calvinist" especially since at the time of Augustine there was no such thing.


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## dannyhyde (Apr 9, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> I knew there were differences between the Lutheran and Reformed Churches Historically.. Especially over matters such as the regulative principle for the Reformed, and the doctrine of Ubiquity in the Eucharist for the Lutherans... And a few more, but those were \"I believe\" the largest.



A helpful summary of the confessional differences between Reformed and Lutheran was stated by Theodore Beza at the Colloquy of Montbeliard in 1586. He listed five differences: 1) the presence of Christ in the eucharist (not whether he is present but how he is present), 2) double predestination (the Lutheran Book of Concord affirms unconditional election, but not double predestination), 3) baptismal regeneration, 4) images of Christ in the churches, and 5) the nature of Christology (related to #1 above . . . whether Christ's humanity is a partaker in his divinity in the hypostatic union).

On this see the brilliant work of Jill Raitt here and here.



Coram Deo said:


> But I was using the word \"Reformed\" in the broadest form.. Meaning Calvinistic...I thought Luther affirmed Limited Atonement in his Bondage of the Will... Maybe I need to dust off the book and reread it..... I thought my memory served me that Luther was a 5 point calvinist except he denied double predestination and it was Melanchthon who turned the Lutherans away from Luther's views....



No, Luther never affirmed our doctrine of the atonement.

Also, don't believe all the hype around Melanchthon as the "boogey-man" of Lutheranism. On this see the works of Robert Kolb.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 9, 2008)

I was close in my list, I just left out baptismal regeneration for the differences.....

Thanks for the info about luther and atonement... I will have to get out bondage of the will and reread it... It has been close to 8 years since I last read it....



dannyhyde said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > I knew there were differences between the Lutheran and Reformed Churches Historically.. Especially over matters such as the regulative principle for the Reformed, and the doctrine of Ubiquity in the Eucharist for the Lutherans... And a few more, but those were \"I believe\" the largest.
> ...


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