# Baptism/Theology Question



## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 24, 2019)

So our sermon this evening was in Jonah, and one of the points was how God will relentlessly discipline and pursue His astray children to lead them away from sin. So here's my question:

The reformed consider the baptism issue to be a serious sin issue if one has the wrong understanding and practice. If God really sees it as sin, why won't he lead into truth and unity those who really want the right answer? Either Matthew Henry or Spurgeon were in grievous sin while pursuing the truth, and God allowed one of them to abide in it, while not pursuing them, disciplining them and calling them out of it. 

The same goes for us. Before conversing with other denominations on baptism, we pray for clarity and truth, only to end the conversation both still believing different things, with some still in sin. 

I would like to be shown practically how God sees this as a serious sin issue for those who have it wrong, but typically doesn't lead people out of that sin like He would other moral sins. Are we more concerned about certain theological beliefs than God is?

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## TheOldCourse (Mar 24, 2019)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So our sermon this evening was in Jonah, and one of the points was how God will relentlessly discipline and pursue His astray children to lead them away from sin. So here's my question:
> 
> The reformed consider the baptism issue to be a serious sin issue if one has the wrong understanding and practice. If God really sees it as sin, why won't he lead into truth and unity those who really want the right answer? Either Matthew Henry or Spurgeon were in grievous sin while pursuing the truth, and God allowed one of them to abide in it, while not pursuing them, disciplining them and calling them out of it.
> 
> ...



Why make this about baptism? How about Arminianism? Semi-pelagianism? Why is p0rnography rampant in the church? Adultery? Greed? Sabbath-breaking? How about the overwhelming apostasy of so many formerly Christian nations? How about, more particularly, the churches we have apostolic epistles to condemning their sins in no uncertain terms? History would tell us that those churches didn't suddenly "get over" their sins and become models of righteousness. How about ourselves, where we so often find ourselves beset with the same sins and temptations throughout our lives, though not always to the same degree.

Are none of these things important because God hasn't stamped them out? I think that you are making far more of the Jonah application than is actually intended. God very frequently leaves churches, nations, and individuals in their sins. It may be judgment, it may be discipline, it may be to teach humility, it may be for reasons beyond our fathoming, but it is a frequent providence. Sin will be with us until our Savior returns. This does not mean that God thinks sin a little thing--our Saviour is also evidence of that.

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## jwithnell (Mar 24, 2019)

If we think wrongly of God at any point, we dishonor Him and break the first commandment. I'm not sure I understand why baptism would be a particular problem. 

The gravest error would occur if a credo-baptist logically treats his children as unbelievers and keeps them apart from the means of grace. The practical reality I've observed has been a deep desire to rear children in the faith and even to develop "dedication" ceremonies to underscore that point. 

I suppose the flipside could occur should a paedo-baptist presume grace and fail to keep the baptism vows to faithfully rear his child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. 

The danger comes in the practical out working of your doctrine.

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## Jack K (Mar 24, 2019)

When your pastor spoke of God relentlessly disciplining and pursuing his children who have gone astray, did he say he had in mind believers who are sincerely trying to do right but are making a theological error? I ask because, as a pastoral matter, it seems unhelpful to lump them in the same category with a fellow like Jonah, who was willfully and deliberately running from God.

As Jean said, there is a sense in which any sincere but mistaken belief is sin. But when we apply discipline, a sin of mistaken doctrine is not likely to be handled the same way as a willful sin—either by a pastor, or by God himself. With willful sin in a believer, God uses the conscience (among other means) to pursue us, which is one reason it feels so relentless.

I think your premise that the Reformed consider theological error regarding baptism to be a "grievous sin" is incorrect, if by "grievous sin" you mean it is in roughly the same category as what Jonah did. I understand that Westminster says it is a "great sin" to neglect baptism, and that some Presbyterians like to make noise about how this applies to the Baptist position, but I think we overstep if we try to equate Spurgeon's refusal to baptize babies with Jonah's refusal to go to Nineveh. Much more nuance is necessary.

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## Smeagol (Mar 25, 2019)

@Ryan&Amber2013

My family as been going through the book of Hebrews during family worship and just this past week we began Hebrews 6 . It is interesting that the doctrine of baptism is listed by the author of Hebrews as a foundational doctrine (milk) in Hebrews 6:1-3 . Hence Hebrews gives evidence that the "Doctrine of Baptism" shares some similarities of importance with "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" among other things.



Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Are we more concerned about certain theological beliefs than God is?


Largely, I would say no. Sadly, as a whole, we are far less concerned with the things God has commanded than He.

Ryan, when you consider the differences, our Baptist brothers draw a much harder line in the sand regarding baptism. Even if you were baptized after a credible profession in a Presbyterian Church with the method of sprinkling or pouring, your Baptism would be viewed as invalid in a Baptist setting (a consistent confessional one anyways). The issue is less about "WHO" is baptized and more about:

"Are the children of a believer considered a part of the visible covenant community?"

This my friend is a serious matter. Covenant sign application is held in high esteem by our Lord, which is evidenced by the consistent testament of His Word from Genesis to Revelation.

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