# Biblically Centered Reformed Worship Team?



## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 27, 2003)

This is a carry over question from another post on the PCA worship. I thought this might be a good topic to discuss.

Is there such a thing as a Biblically Centered Reformed Worship Team?

KC said in the other thread that the worship &quot;team&quot; int he day of David is defined much differently today. I agree, today's worship &quot;team&quot; (Ra, Ra, Go Church Go!) needs to be burned at the stake. But what about a biblically centered worship team that is actually aiding the &quot;less&quot; mature congregation into a deeper sense of worship?

Requirements would obviously be:
1) Ordained ministers lead worship
2) Biblically centered music and lyrics
3) Yada, yada, yada

Let's say the biblical aspects are present - would having a group of people &quot;on mic&quot; even in the back of the church to help the people sing out with a &quot;loud shout&quot; unto the Lord - is it bad or good? Maybe we could ask - would a Refromed worship team violate the the RP or the WCF?

Your thoughts?


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## sastark (Jun 27, 2003)

Isn't &quot;biblically centered worship team&quot; the same as &quot;choir&quot;?


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## kceaster (Jun 27, 2003)

I know of an OPC church here in Indy that does not lead singing. According to the person who does the music there, Reformed liturgy of the past did not include a music leader. If there were no instruments, all would sing in unison after the hymn was announced. In places that allowed instruments, the instrument would play the song all the way through once, and then the congregation would sing the verses by the tempo and direction of the musician playing the instrument.

I do not know his sources for making these statements, but I do respect his scholarship on it.

I, personally, do not see anything wrong with a person leading the singing. In my view, this needs to be an elder, though I have been called upon to do this very thing because of people being out on the Lord's Day.

Of course all of this is in the context of Lord's Day worship.

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with instructional times outside of that. If a new hymn is to be taught, teach it in an informal setting. Go over the parts and the tempo, so that when it is sung in the congregation on the Lord's Day, it can be sung with skill, having already been taught.

But for the Lord's Day, the congregation does not need leader(s) in worship. They are performing as one for God. He is the audience, after all. The praises are to Him not to the people. A singular person should guide the singing, so that all can remain on the same tempo. But teaching sessions can go a long way towards singing skillfully which is &quot;supposedly&quot; the reason for having a team.

In my humble opinion, forget the team. Teach the music and let people sing to God.

Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

As far as these above mentioned practical elements going against the RPW, I cannot see how. But the modern worship team adds something that the divines could not have forseen. Teams may be reconciled by the RPW with craft and persuasion. But I cannot fathom anyone from their time agreeing with the practice.

May I just take the opportunity to say that our worship needs to be simple, not complicated. This does not mean that the music is unchallenging or that it is impossible to do with any semblance of order. Teaching is the key. Once a person is comfortable with the melody, tempo and syncopation of a song, they can begin to really know the words and sing them with conviction. It does not matter if the worship team knows these things, but the people do not. The end result will be that it was entertaining and it sounded good. God was probably pleased with the overall effort. This is mediocre thinking that does not befit God.

If these practice sessions were in place, every Lord's Day could be simple, yet excellent.

Think of a well-known hymn in your church and tell me it is not so. If everyone knows it, it is sung with great gusto and enthusiasm. It is because it has been practiced and learned.

All of our hymnody would be the same way, with just a bit more effort from everyone, not just a few.

Teams are not needed when everyone is on the same page. Practice is key. The greatest choirs in the world are not great without training and practice.

In Christ,

KC


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## Barry (Jan 23, 2004)

Fellas,

I see nothing wrong with having a modern praise and worship team. Why does worship have to be old fashioned and boring singing hymns written over 200 years ago? To me, most of the reformed community is following a tradition. I mean back when these hymns were writen they were modern for that time and the instrumentation was also. 

Barry


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## Scott (Mar 2, 2004)

The Bible places a great emphasis on music, especially in 1 and 2 Chronicles. Musicians were to aid in the worship of God and were selected for the skill from among the Levites, and not just the priestly Levites. They were not selected because they were ordained priests, pastors, or for their teaching skills.

They were to practice and make the music good. Our music should be excellent and we should strive for excellence. And I mean not only in lyrics but also in performance quality. I think that is a biblical model.

We should use the Chronicales as something of a model. Whomever selects and leads in music should be musically gifted. It is better to have someone ordained, but I am not sure that is required. The Levites who led music were not all from the Aaronic priesthood, even though Levites as a tribe were consecreated to a special purpose. 

For a brief look at music in the Chronicles, see item 8 of these PDF notes on the Chronicles from Richard Pratt (RTS):
http://www.thirdmill.org/files/engl..._99_4-36-42_PM~Pratt_Chronicles_Intro.pt3.PDF

Scott


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## dswatts (Mar 2, 2004)

Just curious....those of you who have a 'music leader'....why must this person be an 'ordained minister' or 'elder'?

Could this attitude just serve to reinforce the popish distinction of clergy (ie. priests) and laity in the body? 

Why couldn't a musically gifted brother OR sister lead the congregation in singing thereby exercising their gifts in the body of Christ? In what way would this violate the RPW?

I am not trying to agitate or disrupt: just would like your honest thoughts on the subject.

Grace,
Dwayne


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 2, 2004)

[quote:bed1919463][i:bed1919463]Originally posted by Barry[/i:bed1919463]
Why does worship have to be old fashioned and boring singing hymns written over 200 years ago?

Barry [/quote:bed1919463]

Barry, the fact that you consider old, Reformed hymns to be &quot;boring&quot; may reveal something about your focus in worship. I'm not trying to judge you, but simply advising that you judge yourself, and examine your focus and motives in worship. Is focusing on the truth about Christ and the wonderful grace that has been given us in the Cross enough in and of itself (as it should be) to produce great joy in you when worshipping? Or might your focus be subtly and partially shifted toward an entertainment aspect separate from Christ?

Chris


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 2, 2004)

*Non-Christian on the*

I agree with KC that teaching would go a long way towards helping the congregation sing with conviction. However, in the absence of teaching on the hymns, I think someone (or plural) leading the singing can go a long way towards making that aspect of our worship better.

However, I talked to a pastor (graduated from RTS) who believes that its quite alright to even have a NON-CHRISTIAN serving on the &quot;worship team.&quot; This person shouldn't have a lead role, he qualified; however, to add some instrumentation, playing drums, guitar, backing vocals, etc. is just fine.

In fact, this pastor said, he sees it as a great &quot;witnessing opportunity&quot; for the unsaved guy as he is placed in relationship with the other members, is hearing the sermon every Sunday, and sees the &quot;authenticity&quot; in the lives of the people he's serving with.

Now, please..... I'd LOVE to get your reactions on this!


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## CalsFarmer (Jun 12, 2004)

*Worship TEAMS???*

Just reading these boards can sometimes be 'interesting'. Its alweasy SO amazing how we we as humans 'get lost' in the things we want to add, subtract, multiply or divide in regards to our worship. 

Heres what I learned at Colleyville Pres:
A - Adoration
C - Confession
T - Thanksgiving 
S- Supplication

The elemets of worship. Why do we need praise teams? Worship is about US coming to God to WORSHIP HIM not show off for Him. Please guys, that poor camel is breaking his back trying to get through this needle.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 12, 2004)

No offense, Grace but it doesn't seem like you were responding to the content of people's posts here as much as the word &quot;team&quot; and your aversion to it.


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## CalsFarmer (Jun 12, 2004)

Dear Ian, 

No aversion to the word teams just an aversion to extra UNESSENTIALS in worship. Why are people always trying to add to? Sort of like you being averse to the ELECTRIC SLIDE in worship. (I nearly fell over, never have I heard THAT one before).


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## Ianterrell (Jun 12, 2004)

Grace I agree with you 100%. I just was wondering what who you were addressing since the only person who seemed to be speaking favorably of a worship team was our friend Barry.


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## CalsFarmer (Jun 13, 2004)

*Worship Teams*

Hi Ian, 

Yes, Barry, does seem to be the only one favoring teams, perhaps he is just young.

Have you found a church yet in Manhattan? Several years ago I heard of a PCA church pastored by a Jewish-turned-reformer gentleman. For the life of me his name now escapes me, however, I bet if you check out the yellow pages (no kidding) under PCA churches and just start calling and asking you will find him. I read an article he wrote. I was very impressed as I am one of that presuasion also.

(I travel a lot, so the yellow pages help me to find a PCA church whilst I am on the road).


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## Ianterrell (Jun 14, 2004)

Grace,

The man you are speaking of I believe is Steve Schissel. He is aligned with the New Perspective on Paul.


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## dkicklig (Jun 14, 2004)

I come from the school of choral led worship. The musicians are there to help guide the congregation in the singing of songs during worship. A small &quot;team&quot; of musicians in lieu of a full choir can easily take it's place. The point of needing a leader/s is that when you put 100-1000 people in one room and tell them to sing on there own without guidance, would only end in a musical train wreck.

At our small church an elder is typically the &quot;leader&quot; of the small group of musicians whose only role is to guide the singing. It is strongly emphasized that any performance mentality is unacceptable.


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## CalsFarmer (Jun 15, 2004)

Hi Ian, 
Hmmmm. Somehow I do not seem to recognize that name as being associated with the person I am trying to think of. However I have heard of the new perspective on Paul and redefining the covenant. Better stop now while I am ahead. I am sure that discussion is for another board at another time.General Assembly sould be interesting this year.


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## yeutter (Jun 15, 2004)

If memory serves me right, the Church of Scotland had retained the office of Reader after the Reformation . He led the singing of the Psalter, the Ten Commandments, and read the Epistle. The Pastor read the Gospel.
The office was abolished in Scotland because the Westminster Assembly saw no biblical warrant for such an office.


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 18, 2004)

If by worship team, you mean a small group of people who can play simply, without drawing attention to themselves (positive or negative) that help in keeping tempo and tune for the body as a whole, I don't really see a problem with them.

A worship leader or leaders need to be able to not be distracting, but also play well enough that other members don't distract each other.

If you go all acapella, quickly do the tunes and tempo degenerate.


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## CalsFarmer (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:ec1f435e40][i:ec1f435e40]Originally posted by alwaysreforming[/i:ec1f435e40]
I agree with KC that teaching would go a long way towards helping the congregation sing with conviction. However, in the absence of teaching on the hymns, I think someone (or plural) leading the singing can go a long way towards making that aspect of our worship better.

However, I talked to a pastor (graduated from RTS) who believes that its quite alright to even have a NON-CHRISTIAN serving on the &quot;worship team.&quot; This person shouldn't have a lead role, he qualified; however, to add some instrumentation, playing drums, guitar, backing vocals, etc. is just fine.

In fact, this pastor said, he sees it as a great &quot;witnessing opportunity&quot; for the unsaved guy as he is placed in relationship with the other members, is hearing the sermon every Sunday, and sees the &quot;authenticity&quot; in the lives of the people he's serving with.

Now, please..... I'd LOVE to get your reactions on this! [/quote:ec1f435e40]

My reaction? Horrified. Worship is for BELIEVERS. Placing a non christain in a place of authority before a congregation profanes the worship. I would be OUT of there before the first hymn was over.


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 20, 2004)

[quote:70421f104e][i:70421f104e]Originally posted by CalsFarmer[/i:70421f104e]
My reaction? Horrified. Worship is for BELIEVERS. Placing a non christain in a place of authority before a congregation profanes the worship. I would be OUT of there before the first hymn was over. [/quote:70421f104e]

Profane fire anyone?


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