# Reprobation and coming to Christ



## KGP (Feb 12, 2014)

I grew up Arminian family and attended similar churches for most of my life, and so the notion that God might not actually want to save everyone was something that seemed to grate hard across my environment, though as a very thoughtful and logical Bible reading child, I couldn't help but see it in the scriptures, or at least logically deduce it at some point. Having read a plethora of reformed theology in the last few years, it seems that what I saw in my Bible as a youngster was not so odd after all.

That God elects individuals based solely on his eternal purpose and pleasure is clear. If _"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18)_ and _"We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)_ then there is simply no other option.

But for the reprobate I have a question.

Would it be accurate to say that seeing as they are born under Adam's sin, the justice of God must necessarily shut them off from him? So that aside from their unwillingness and inability to come to Christ, there is a very real sense, and I think a much weightier sense even, that they are prevented by an active and divine principle of ever doing so? That God prevents them, they are not permitted, to come to Christ? Not only is there an inability on Man's side, but an inability that they should come to Christ from God's side?

I've read a lot about the total depravity of man, and how man is subject to God's wrath; but not much about them being held back from Christ by God. Held off from Christ by sin, satan, self, yes, but actively held back by God?

Is that taking things a bit far? Or is that on the mark?


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## Alan D. Strange (Feb 13, 2014)

KGP said:


> But for the reprobate I have a question.



Do you mean "about the reprobate I have a question?"

You can't ask a question to the reprobate since neither you nor they know themselves as such. 

Does Christ prevent men from coming to Him? Nothing in the Bible suggests that but only the opposite. No one was ever prevented from coming who wanted to come. The Lord Jesus tells us in fact that the one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37). 

Peace,
Alan


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## KMK (Feb 13, 2014)

Election and Reprobation are similar but not completely symmetrical. I recommend this article by R.C. Sproul: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org


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## raydixon9 (Feb 13, 2014)

Comments on this view?

All men are reprobate sinners in Adam. God chooses his elect out the pool of reprobates and saves them in Christ. He leaves the rest of the reprobates to their just damnation.


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## stephen2 (Feb 13, 2014)

> Comments on this view?
> 
> All men are reprobate sinners in Adam. God chooses his elect out the pool of reprobates and saves them in Christ. He leaves the rest of the reprobates to their just damnation.



Its not how theologians have historically used the concept of reprobation, though many have emphasized the difference between predestination and fore-ordination (which I'm sure you know was a distinction made by the authors of the Westminster Confession). R.L. Dabney's thoughts on this are worth consideration if you have his systematic.



> Would it be accurate to say that seeing as they are born under Adam's sin, the justice of God must necessarily shut them off from him? So that aside from their unwillingness and inability to come to Christ, there is a very real sense, and I think a much weightier sense even, that they are prevented by an active and divine principle of ever doing so? That God prevents them, they are not permitted, to come to Christ? Not only is there an inability on Man's side, but an inability that they should come to Christ from God's side?
> 
> I've read a lot about the total depravity of man, and how man is subject to God's wrath; but not much about them being held back from Christ by God. Held off from Christ by sin, satan, self, yes, but actively held back by God?
> 
> Is that taking things a bit far? Or is that on the mark?



I agree entirely with Alan. There is absolutely nothing (!) in Scripture that would even hint at such a thing. Their inability coincides with their unwillingness. It is a blindness (as Paul put in his letter to the Ephesians) of the heart. Just as we would consider the man who is unable to have sympathy or love for his child especially (not less!) wicked, so the person who is unable to come to Christ is more not less culpable because his inability is the inability of his own wicked heart.


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## KGP (Feb 13, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> KGP said:
> 
> 
> > But for the reprobate I have a question.
> ...



Yes, thank you, that is exactly what I meant  I wrote that post in a bit of a rush as I had to get to an appointment, should have read it over first.



Alan D. Strange said:


> Does Christ prevent men from coming to Him? Nothing in the Bible suggests that but only the opposite. No one was ever prevented from coming who wanted to come. The Lord Jesus tells us in fact that the one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).


I am in perfect agreement with you that Christ did nothing to prevent anyone to come to him, that much is plain to see. I'll explain my question again below.



KMK said:


> Election and Reprobation are similar but not completely symmetrical. I recommend this article by R.C. Sproul: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org



Thanks for the link, I have read that specific article a number of times in the past. I am aware and in agreement with Sproul's statements there.




Let me restate my question.

As I understand it; the covenant of grace was drawn up within the Godhead in eternity past, with a view forward to specific individuals that would be redeemed and brought into perfect eternal fellowship with the Godhead to display the riches and glory of God's grace. Those individuals whom have not been elected to benefit from this eternal covenant are the reprobate; and God did no wrong in not electing them.

I know that practically speaking, we don't know whom the elect are; but that doesn't mean that they are just a concept. Likewise with the reprobate, just because we ought not to assume anyone reprobate; doesn't mean that they don't exist. Those who have been left out of the covenant of grace come into this world under the curse of Adam's sin, and they will continue in such a state until death. Outside the CoG, they have no mediator, no federal redeemer, no sacrifice for their sin. That will not change during their lifetime.

My question is this. Seeing as the reprobate are born under Adam's transgression and the wrath of God, does the wrath of God that abides on the unbeliever _also_ act to keep him from Christ, if he is not elect? So that not only is the preterited (is there an action word for preterition?) sinner unwilling and unable to come to Christ, _but also barred by the Father from doing so?_? Indeed Christ receives all who come from him, but in light of the CoG, only the elect come; the Godhead works in harmony to accomplish this in their case.

I suppose it is really a moot point when the rubber hits the road, whether someone is simply unable and unwilling to come to Christ, or whether they are unable and unwilling on their end, _and also_ prevented by a divine principal. Either way it is a hopeless situation - ala Ephesians 2:12

Thanks for your earlier replies, Alan and Ken; does this wording make a bit more sense?


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## stephen2 (Feb 13, 2014)

> My question is this. Seeing as the reprobate are born under Adam's transgression and the wrath of God; does God's justice not necessarily also act to shut them out from Christ? Does the wrath of God that abides on the unbeliever also act to keep him from Christ, if he is not elect? So that not only is the sinner unwilling and unable to come to Christ, but also barred by the Father from doing so??



If this were the case the free offer of the gospel would be not be a real and genuine one.


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## KGP (Feb 13, 2014)

stephen2 said:


> > My question is this. Seeing as the reprobate are born under Adam's transgression and the wrath of God; does God's justice not necessarily also act to shut them out from Christ? Does the wrath of God that abides on the unbeliever also act to keep him from Christ, if he is not elect? So that not only is the sinner unwilling and unable to come to Christ, but also barred by the Father from doing so??
> 
> 
> 
> If this were the case the free offer of the gospel would be not be a real and genuine one.



Well, if the wrath of God against the sin of Adam was spiritual death to his whole posterity, then there is a sense in which that wrath of God is barring them from coming to Christ, right?

When a person rejects Christ or stumbles over him, is that not a judgment, and not merely a grevious sin?

When the genuine free offer of God falls on deaf ears, is that not only due to their sinfulness, but due to the active wrath of God against their sin, for which they have no effectual mediator?


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## Alan D. Strange (Feb 13, 2014)

KGP said:


> I know that practically speaking, we don't know whom the elect are; but that doesn't mean that they are just a concept. Likewise with the reprobate, just because we ought not to assume anyone reprobate; doesn't mean that they don't exist. Those who have been left out of the covenant of grace come into this world under the curse of Adam's sin, and they will continue in such a state until death. Outside the CoG, they have no mediator, no federal redeemer, no sacrifice for their sin. That will not change during their lifetime.



These are not at all equivalent, dear brother.

I know that I am His, being "certainly assured" that I am in a state of grace, an "infallible assurance of faith" (WCF 18.1-2). And I believe that many around me who profess faith in Christ and evidence it in their lives are indeed His as well. 

The same is not true of reprobation. I can't even guess who such may be, unless I wish to be sinful and presumptuous. 

In fact, "the doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men...may...be assured of their eternal election..." (WCF 3.8). All this speculating about the reprobate and how this works with the reprobate does not redound to the "praise, reverence, and admiration of God" as the doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is meant to. 

Speculating rationalistically about how the reprobate not only do not want to and never do come to Christ but also are positively kept from coming to God by his active barring is unbiblical and unhelpful, tending to paint God in a bad light and mistaking what the Bible (and Calvinism) teaches. 

Peace,
Alan


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## KGP (Feb 14, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> These are not at all equivalent, dear brother.
> 
> I know that I am His, being "certainly assured" that I am in a state of grace, an "infallible assurance of faith" (WCF 18.1-2). And I believe that many around me who profess faith in Christ and evidence it in their lives are indeed His as well.
> 
> ...




Alan, thanks for that kind rebuke; I actually had a chat our lead pastor today, and while it wasn't on this topic, I certainly came away from it reminded of my propensity to go beyond what it helpful in loving God and loving others in my musings. Rational speculation is a good phrase for it, and yes, that is what is happening here I'm afraid.

I'll let this one go.

Blessings


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## jwithnell (Feb 14, 2014)

May I suggest another tack on this? When you consider what the scriptures say about man apart from God: that he is blind, deaf, _dead_ nothing else is really necessary to prevent a reprobate man from coming to God. A man apart from God is what he is. A sermon Jonathan Edwards preached as a very young man, "God Glorified in Man's Dependence" emphasizes that man's inability to come to God is a crowning glory upon the work of His bringing someone to Himself. The emphasis might better be placed on the truth that God _gives_ all that is necessary for saving faith. The reprobate is simply left alone in the matter.

(I might add, that this is not to ignore a reprobate man's active disobedience of God.)


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## KGP (Feb 18, 2014)

jwithnell said:


> A man apart from God is what he is.



You know, that really states it plainly, doesn't it?

When one considers the claims of the gospel; it is a wonder that people reject it, much less forsake it; and yet what else can a man do apart from God? Not one whit better; he is what he is: apart from God. He can only fall.


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