# Free Reformed Churches of North America??



## Jash Comstock (May 7, 2012)

I recently came across a denomination I had previously been unaware of, The Free Reformed Churches of North America. Does anyone know anything about them? I perused their website and they seem sound. Does anyone have any info?


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## A.J. (May 7, 2012)

They are confessionally sound. The federation is a member of NAPARC together with such groups as the PCA, OPC and URCNA.


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## J. Dean (May 7, 2012)

As opposed to the Reformed churches one must pay for?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 7, 2012)

Free Reformed Churches of North America


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 7, 2012)

PRTS is the official Seminary of the denomination, as well as the Heritage Reformed Congregations.


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## ericfromcowtown (May 7, 2012)

As far as their distinctives, I believe they are exclusively psalm singing and also use the KJV exclusively. Correct?


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 7, 2012)

My understanding is that they utilize the KJV from the pulpit but are not in the "exclusive" camp.


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## Guido's Brother (May 7, 2012)

I think there's at least one FRCNA pastor on the PB...or there was. Jerrold?


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## mhseal (May 7, 2012)

The FRC is very strange to outsiders... including myself. Some of the churches are more conservative than others, but they are all solid and confessional. They have alot of traditions that may be perceived of as "Dutch", at least that's what the Presbyterians up here tell me.


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## Jash Comstock (May 7, 2012)

mhseal said:


> The FRC is very strange to outsiders... including myself. Some of the churches are more conservative than others, but they are all solid and confessional. They have alot of traditions that may be perceived of as "Dutch", at least that's what the Presbyterians up here tell me.



What kind of traditions?


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## VictorBravo (May 7, 2012)

Jash Comstock said:


> What kind of traditions?



One interesting tradition, or custom, is holding to Exclusive Psalmody (or nearly EP) while embracing organ playing for congregational accompaniment or other purposes during worship.


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## mhseal (May 7, 2012)

From what I'm told, some churches are more strict about the traditions than others... but, the women are expected to wear hats and dresses, in GR it's not a requirement, but at least encouraged. The elders wear black... only black. My wife is in the confession of faith class and it was explained that there was no rule about the elders wearing black until one day a new elder wore a plaid suit... then they called an emergency elder meeting to establish that an elder must wear black, and if he cannot afford it, then the black suit will be provided for him. They are EP. The Lord's Supper can also be a little strange, as there are some older members who will not partake, as they don't want to presume the grace of God. 

So yeah... I can't vouch for all of the FRCNA churches, but I've been told that the one in GR is a little bit unique. The preaching is still great, though.


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## Jake (May 7, 2012)

mhseal said:


> The Lord's Supper can also be a little strange, as there are some older members who will not partake, as they don't want to presume the grace of God.



I remember reading an article about how this was actually a widespread problem in the Dutch Reformed church, to the point where almost no one would take communion in many churches. Does anyone have a relevant resource?


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## ericfromcowtown (May 7, 2012)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> My understanding is that they utilize the KJV from the pulpit but are not in the "exclusive" camp.



Thanks for the clarrification. I didn't mean to imply that they were "KJV-onlyists," in that sense.

Although I have not attended a service, we (the congregation of which I am a member) have had good experiences cooperating with the local Free Reformed Church. They seem like good folks.


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 7, 2012)

ericfromcowtown said:


> Thanks for the clarrification. I didn't mean to imply that they were "KJV-onlyists," in that sense.


NP. I am hypersensitive to the subject since my denomination uses the KJV as the primary text from the pulpit, and we are therefore called KJV-onlyists because of this but in no way is that true.


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## Tim (May 7, 2012)

mhseal said:


> They are EP.



Do they not sing selections such as the Apostles' Creed, Song of Mary, etc.?


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## Guido's Brother (May 7, 2012)

Jake said:


> mhseal said:
> 
> 
> > The Lord's Supper can also be a little strange, as there are some older members who will not partake, as they don't want to presume the grace of God.
> ...



It depends what you mean by "Dutch Reformed church." There is actually no such thing. But if you mean the Netherlands Reformed Congregations, then yes, that's true. But if you're referring to Reformed churches tracing their ancestry back to the Netherlands, this would be a minority position. It's certainly not the case in the Canadian Reformed or United Reformed churches.


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## mhseal (May 7, 2012)

Tim said:


> mhseal said:
> 
> 
> > They are EP.
> ...



Not that I know of. In the enquirers class they told us they were EP and I've noticed nothing that would persuade me otherwise.


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## Galatians220 (May 7, 2012)

Over the years, we've occasionally attended the FRC in Grand Rapids and heard Dr. David Murray preach there, among many other fine preachers. That was before we became associate members of Heritage NRC, though. I always enjoyed sermons I heard at the FRC and the congregants there are very nice. They are EP and most women wear hats there. We did make some good friends at that church and probably will attend there again, although not as frequently.


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## Tim (May 7, 2012)

I am delighted to hear your answer. The reason why I asked is that sometimes I hear claims that a certain denomination is EP, but then it turns out that they also sing certain "scripture songs". I am not saying this of the FRCNA, but I did wish to ask for clarification.


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## JOwen (May 7, 2012)

I'm a minister in the FRCNA. Can I answer any questions?

Free Reformed Church: Pompton Plains, NJ


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## N. Eshelman (May 7, 2012)

JOwen said:


> I'm a minister in the FRCNA. Can I answer any questions?
> 
> Free Reformed Church: Pompton Plains, NJ



You sure are, brother. 

I love the Free Reformed Church. If I were Dutch I held to the 3FU and did not believe in a cappella psalmody...I'd be home. They are good brothers. 

As for elders ONLY wearing black. I saw navy blue once or twice.


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## Scott1 (May 8, 2012)

We can, in good faith, favorably commend any member denomination of NAPARC (North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council) for sound doctrine and practice- and a high level of fraternal relations amongst one another.

As mentioned by Albert, this associations includes many of the best denominations (biblical reformed) including now the Free Reformed Churches.


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## JOwen (May 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> I am delighted to hear your answer. The reason why I asked is that sometimes I hear claims that a certain denomination is EP, but then it turns out that they also sing certain "scripture songs". I am not saying this of the FRCNA, but I did wish to ask for clarification.



In our New Jersey congregation we sing Psalms only, *no* _Scripture Songs, hymns, or choruses_. We also use the KJV in our worship services. There is a bit of a gradient in our federation in that some of our congregations will use the NKJV and will, at _certain times_, sing scripture songs. As to head coverings, that is a liberty of conscience issue. In some of our congregation (including Pompton Plains, Dundas, Monarch, Hamilton, Bornholm), the women wear head coverings. In other congregations it is more dispersed in practice. Some more, some less. 

As for the Lord's Supper, we hold to Close Communion, not Closed. Some of our members struggle with assurance of faith, which causes them to refrain from the Table. In my own congregation we have such souls. My delight and labor is to not break the bruised reed, or quench the smoking flax. Pastorally, I am trying to teach them the difference between faith, and the _feelings of faith_. As to the "black suited elder", that is not a universal occurrence either.

Our closest fraternal relations are the Heritage Reformed Congregations and the Free Church Continuing. In both cases, we are at the second highest level of relations. We are working on closer ties with the Presbyterian Reformed Churches, and are full members of NAPARC.
We share a wonderful seminary in PRTS. Many of our own men teach there. Dr Jerry. Bilkes has been sent as our ordained Professor. 

Let me know if there are any more questions I can answer.


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## kvanlaan (May 8, 2012)

There is indeed a wide range of practices in the FRC. I have been to a few services and know many therein, and there are some fine pastors in that denomination. It is funny though, that I know best the Hamilton and Dundas congregations, which best exemplify the more conservative strain in the FRC. Dundas has as pastor Jerry Bilkes' brother Lawrence, and he gives a fine sermon. Pastor Procee (since moved on to the Netherlands to teach in Apeldoorn, I believe) of Hamilton FRC was the gentleman whose congregation broke me of my preconceived notions of what the FRC was. Growing up CRC and only knowing them from a distance, I had a lot of misconceptions. There is an almost otherworldly reverence for the worship service in the FRC, and they are always most thorough and exacting in their practices. Some find them too 'legalistic', but there is a fine line there, where certain practices had to be established because some had gone too far off the other side. I recall someone complaining about how the elders had set literally measurements for wedding dresses (which seemed a bit over the top to me) but came to find out that it was some brides' affinity for open bodices/plunging necklines and other such indelicacies that was the source of the rules. There was recently a large FRC built in St George which is a rather young and new congregation, but their organic growth is never an issue (let's just say that they are prolific in terms of family numbers). We ended up going to the URC, but found the FRC in Hamilton as warm and welcoming as any church, and perhaps even moreso.


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## Kevin (May 9, 2012)

It is an ethnic Dutch church, in the "black stocking" tradition.

I doubt that any Presbyterians, or non-dutch person would feel comfortable in these churches.

The number of cultural issues that would face a non-dutch, non-black stocking, non-EP, non-KJV-only, christian would feel overwhelming to most people that consider themselves reformed.


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## jogri17 (May 9, 2012)

If I may share an anecdote, and this is only an anecdote... I was visiting Grand Rapids once and did a tour of the various Dutchy Churches (Free Reformed, Netherlands Reformed, and Heritage Reformed) on a Lord's Day. I wore nice tight dress jeans, black shoes, a 2 button gray jacket, white shirt and nice purple tie. You know because I was dressing up in a style that was normal for most people in today's society... very urban. However when I went into the room I found a bunch of people staring at me and a little kid asked me why I was wearing jeans (as it all jeans were the same!). I didn't partake in the Lord's Supper because I didn't have time to meet with the elders, and I thought that would save them some worry! After the service (and btw, David Murray preached an excellent sermon), one of the elders began to ask me some questions and he saw that I was a Christian in a Refomred Church and than said ... and I quote '''well there sunny boy, now do you think its really appropiate for a young man to wear purple in the house of the Lord?''. I almost LOLed in person. 

I have meet a bunch of free reformed folk, and they are great brothers and sisters. They come across as legalists and excessively formal at time, but in reality they really are not. I have ironically encountered more legalist and extremists in the PCA and OPC! It just comes accross as a bit of a throw back to another time period when you first enter. I was shocked by some of the elderly women hats, though some of the younger girls my age were looking rather cute/stylish with their choice of modest hats. Women to have to wear head coverings ordinarly at the Lord's table (at least at the one I visited), but I'm not sure if that is denominational polity or tradition and up to each secession. But generally besides the fact there maybe some odd tendancies here and there, I really enjoyed my visit there. I just couldn't personally join because 1. I hate the organ; and 2. I believe that God's word not only permits the use of unspired songs, but commands it (thus I truly adhere to the regulative principle); but that is a different discussion!

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Kevin said:


> I doubt that any Presbyterians, or non-dutch person would feel comfortable in these churches.



I felt comfortable, but thats only because I have been exposed to CanRef, which is good training for the more dutchy reformed churches.


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## JOwen (May 9, 2012)

Kevin said:


> It is an ethnic Dutch church, in the "black stocking" tradition.
> 
> I doubt that any Presbyterians, or non-dutch person would feel comfortable in these churches.
> 
> The number of cultural issues that would face a non-dutch, non-black stocking, non-EP, non-KJV-only, christian would feel overwhelming to most people that consider themselves reformed.



I'm a Scottish trained minister (Licensed in Inverness Scotland 2005), pastored an old school Presbyterian Church in Vancouver, and am now a minister in the Free Reformed Churches. We have had Roberts, Murray, Scott, and several other solid Presbyterians in our pulpit and pew. Further, our Calgary congregation is comprised of many former _old school _Presbyterians. We also have the second highest ecumenical relations with the Free Church Continuing; the last of which will allow us to call each other's ministers. So you are mistaken brother, many Presbyterians feel very comfortable in the FRCNA. 

And keep in mind, there is more to exemplifying the Reformed tradition than EP (which many of us are). It is the warm, doctrinal, and experiential element in the preaching that draws many of the Scottish (and non Dutch) to our pews. I will readily confess we are a “throw-back” denomination, but it hearkens to the days of the Puritans, of whom many would be considered too strict and legalistic in our day(EP, no feast days, no card playing, theater, dancing, sports, etc).

---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------




jogri17 said:


> After the service (and btw, David Murray preached an excellent sermon), one of the elders began to ask me some questions and he saw that I was a Christian in a Refomred Church and than said ... and I quote '''well there sunny boy, now do you think its really appropiate for a young man to wear purple in the house of the Lord?''. I almost LOLed in person.



I think I know who that was! However, my congregation is FAR more conservative than the Grand Rapids congregation and I can assure you that none of my brother elders (or anyone else for that matter) would ever do such a thing. It is impolite, and a non essential.


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## py3ak (May 9, 2012)

Mixing tight jeans with a purple tie certainly seems very close to wearing a "kick-me" sign. The only acceptable tie to mix with jeans is a bolo.


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## Scott1 (May 10, 2012)

Kevin said:


> It is an ethnic Dutch church, in the "black stocking" tradition.
> 
> I doubt that any Presbyterians, or non-dutch person would feel comfortable in these churches.
> 
> The number of cultural issues that would face a non-dutch, non-black stocking, non-EP, non-KJV-only, christian would feel overwhelming to most people that consider themselves reformed.



My understanding is the "three forms of unity" (3FU) is basically the same doctrine as the Westminster Standards. The two systems freely quote one another, e.g. Presbyterians occasionally quote and use in worship, the Heidelberg Catechism.

If one is centered on doctrine as the basis of unity (which is a key tenet of reformed theology), I can see much comfort, and much unity despite some other differences of preference and practice.

Any one of the NAPARC denominations is a good faith effort to share the same basic (reformed) theology.


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 10, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> I doubt that any Presbyterians, or non-dutch person would feel comfortable in these churches.


I'm a presbyterian, and from what I know of the Free Reformed Churches, I believe I would feel quite at home worshipping along side those Bretheren.


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## N. Eshelman (May 10, 2012)

I love the FRCNA... black socks and all.


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## yeutter (May 10, 2012)

Don't be quick to blame Dutch ethnicity. I know of Baptist and Anglican congregations where all the men wear dark suits and conservative ties. Women wearing hats in Church was the universal 50 years ago, not just for conservative dutch reformed but also for mainstream Presbyterians and Episcopalians. In some [a minority] continuing Anglican Churches the women still all wear hats as a symbolic head covering. Today, in some of these same congregations; if a man showed up wearing blue denim jeans and a purple tie he would be viewed with suspicion. Is he an Episcopalian spy?!


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## Unoriginalname (May 11, 2012)

What is all this talk of black stockings?


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## jogri17 (May 11, 2012)

N. Eshelman said:


> As for elders ONLY wearing black. I saw navy blue once or twice.



They were the liberals 

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JOwen said:


> I think I know who that was! However, my congregation is FAR more conservative than the Grand Rapids congregation and I can assure you that none of my brother elders (or anyone else for that matter) would ever do such a thing. It is impolite, and a non essential.



He was a nice chap. I wasn't offended. I'm just glad he didn't ask if I was gay for wearing tight jeans (and not light super tight, just nice jeans).


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 11, 2012)

yeutter said:


> Don't be quick to blame Dutch ethnicity. I know of Baptist and Anglican congregations where all the men wear dark suits and conservative ties. Women wearing hats in Church was the universal 50 years ago, not just for conservative dutch reformed but also for mainstream Presbyterians and Episcopalians.


 This seems to carry the idea that women wearing headcoverings is a matter of ethnicity. It is a matter of a RPW view on 1 Cor 11. This would be the reason one would see Reformed Denominations historically adhering to the practice. This is totally separate from any issues of ethnicity.


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## Beau Michel (May 13, 2012)

They are a small Dutch Reformed denomination that as far as I know still adheres faithfully to the Three Forms of Unity.


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## Gesetveemet (May 17, 2012)

I attend a dutch church because the people have the best mints.


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