# Arab "Christian" hatred of Muslims



## VilnaGaon

Over the years, here in North America, I have witnessed an almost venomous hatred of Muslims by so-called Arab ""Christians""---mostly Copts. Strangely this hatred in the form of words, glares, attitudes and just plain loathing tends to be directed more against darker-skinned Muslims from Asia and Africa than against Arab Muslims. 
Has anyone else on this board noticed this?
People like this are just making it harder for us Christians who do witness to Muslims rather than just hate them!


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## Rich Koster

Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it.


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## Mark Hettler

If I were a Christian from a Muslim country, and my sanctification process wasn't quite completed yet, I suspect I might harbor some resentment myself.


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## kvanlaan

My wife used to live in Cairo and the Copts were given a lovely home by the Egyptians there: on top of the garbage piles outside the city. I'd be bitter, I think.


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## Montanablue

I think I would also struggle with bitterness if I was persecuted. I think it can be easy for those of us who do not face persecution to tell others to "love their enemies."


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## Sweaty Deacon

And since Islam required the Copts to pay the jizya or tribute every year at which time they were publicly humiliated as part of their payment, and live in dhimmitude, stripping their Christianity of it's power and treating them as second class citizens - I can see bitter.


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## Scottish Lass

Rich Koster said:


> Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it.



I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.


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## Rich Koster

Scottish Lass said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
Click to expand...


No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.


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## Turtle

VilnaGaon said:


> Over the years, here in North America, I have witnessed an almost venomous hatred of Muslims by so-called Arab ""Christians""---mostly Copts. Strangely this hatred in the form of words, glares, attitudes and just plain loathing tends to be directed more against darker-skinned Muslims from Asia and Africa than against Arab Muslims.
> Has anyone else on this board noticed this?
> People like this are just making it harder for us Christians who do witness to Muslims rather than just hate them!



The few Arab Christians that I know (who were born and raised under persecutions in Islamic countries) are exceptionally polite, very expressive of their faith in Christ, and only get visibly frustrated when Americans ignorantly nod along with proponents of the "peaceful religion" as if it were of equal value and effect as the true religion. 

Their most frustrating moments occur when Americans listen intently to "erudite Doctors" (and practitioners) of the peaceful religion, but refuse to listen to those who have lived under oppression in countries dominated by the peaceful religion. The ones I know can still quote many of the verses (of hatred and violence against the _Kafir_, infidel) that they were forced, as young children, to memorize from the Qur'an. 

The frustration I have witnessed them to have is not against people per-se, but rather against deceit and the apparent ambivalence to whether or not there really is any deliberate deception going on.

Bryan


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## Rich Koster

Islam is not "peaceful". In the end, it is oppression or extermination for those who do not embrace it.


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## Scottish Lass

Rich Koster said:


> Scottish Lass said:
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> 
> Rich Koster said:
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> Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
Click to expand...


I guess I don't know what you mean by "cult," then.


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## Rich Koster

Scottish Lass said:


> Rich Koster said:
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> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess I don't know what you mean by "cult," then.
Click to expand...


Cult= any religion with a my way or the highway threat from the leader(s)


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## TimV

Copts are a cult.


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## Mushroom

I had a some encounters with an Egyptian Copt couple recently in the course of my work, and they were definitely bitter against muhummadeens. The have endured a long history of severe persecution at the hands of the 'prophet's' followers.


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## VilnaGaon

Many of these Middle Eastern ""Christians"" have a history of persecuting the Jews in their countries even under Islamic Rule. eg. the Armenian persecution of Jews under the Ottoman Empire. The Muslims seem to have a hierachy of infidels with Christians on the top and Jews at the bottom. Sorry, I can't shed too many tears for these false ""Christians"" being persecuted by Muslims, when they do likewise to the Jews. I believe from Romans 11, that we should take care how we treat God's ancient people ---- the Jews.
I would like your views on this.


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## toddpedlar

Rich Koster said:


> Scottish Lass said:
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> 
> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
Click to expand...


It seems to me, Rich, that you aren't hearing what Anna was saying, and that we're way down a rabbit trail. You have understood the OP to be talking about Arab Muslim converts to Christianity who are bitter and judgmental toward Muslims. I am gathering this from your "you would be bitter too if you came out of a cult".

However, there are a fairly large number of Arabs both in Palestine and in Egypt, and other Arabic regions, who have been Christians for generations. Now I'm not sure what the OP was focusing on for certain, but one cannot assume that simply because one of Arabic descent is a Christian today, he must have converted from Islam. This is (I think) all Anna was trying to point out. 

As for the "cult" comment, it's usually not common usage to refer to Islam as a cult - it's simply a false relgion.


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## VilnaGaon

toddpedlar said:


> Rich Koster said:
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> 
> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It seems to me, Rich, that you aren't hearing what Anna was saying, and that we're way down a rabbit trail. You have understood the OP to be talking about Arab Muslim converts to Christianity who are bitter and judgmental toward Muslims. I am gathering this from your "you would be bitter too if you came out of a cult".
> 
> However, there are a fairly large number of Arabs both in Palestine and in Egypt, and other Arabic regions, who have been Christians for generations. Now I'm not sure what the OP was focusing on for certain, but one cannot assume that simply because one of Arabic descent is a Christian today, he must have converted from Islam. This is (I think) all Anna was trying to point out.
> 
> As for the "cult" comment, it's usually not common usage to refer to Islam as a cult - it's simply a false relgion.
Click to expand...

These so-called Arab ""Christians"" are no more Christian than Roman Catholics are. The hatred they demonstrate to Muslims here in the Free World, while calling themselves Christian, gives True Christians who witness to Muslims a bad name.


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## toddpedlar

VilnaGaon said:


> toddpedlar said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me, Rich, that you aren't hearing what Anna was saying, and that we're way down a rabbit trail. You have understood the OP to be talking about Arab Muslim converts to Christianity who are bitter and judgmental toward Muslims. I am gathering this from your "you would be bitter too if you came out of a cult".
> 
> However, there are a fairly large number of Arabs both in Palestine and in Egypt, and other Arabic regions, who have been Christians for generations. Now I'm not sure what the OP was focusing on for certain, but one cannot assume that simply because one of Arabic descent is a Christian today, he must have converted from Islam. This is (I think) all Anna was trying to point out.
> 
> As for the "cult" comment, it's usually not common usage to refer to Islam as a cult - it's simply a false relgion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These so-called Arab ""Christians"" are no more Christian than Roman Catholics are. The hatred they demonstrate to Muslims here in the Free World, while calling themselves Christian, gives True Christians who witness to Muslims a bad name.
Click to expand...


I take it by "these" you are referring to a particular small group of people that you have some experience with. However, you are painting with a very broad brush, tarring Arab Christians of all kinds with the brush you wish to slap on the particular people who have offended you by their actions. You should be more specific about who it is you're addressing (and make your criticisms in a more Christlike manner yourself). While I agree that the people you are talking about are a poor witness for Christ, I can't say much more for your own manner in taking them to task.


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## kvanlaan

Todd, I think that a large part of the previous comment is directed at the fact that the overwhelming majority of these Arab Christians are Coptic, Maronite, Church of Antioch, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. and in many places on this board, we are very quick to place RCs in the camp of the pagan, EOs in the camp of the pagan, insert-any-non-protestant-group, etc. etc., and yet when we talk Jews persecuting these groups in the Middle East, we move with almost mechanical precision to speak of the "beleaguered Christians" there. Were they here, we would call them idolators, but in the abstract, they are Christians. I think that therein lies the frustration. 

Why the double standard? (That's not directed at you, but at anyone who can answer; as I've seen this a number of times in other threads.)


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## VilnaGaon

These Arab '""Christians"" I refer to are mostly Coptic, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox and Maronite who by their theology have shown themselves outside the Historic Christian Faith. I disagree that my comments are un-Christlike, I am of Dutch Heritage, I call a spade a spade. 
I have had quite a few Muslims tell me of their encounters with these Middle Eastern ""Christians"" and the hate they received from them. Particularly disturbing was a bearded Pakistani Muslim employee of mine who told me of his encounter with a Coptic woman at a Supermarket checkout counter, where she screamed her hatred of Muslims to him in public. I firmly believe in witnessing to Muslims, not hating them.


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## OPC'n

VilnaGaon said:


> These Arab '""Christians"" I refer to are mostly Coptic, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox and Maronite who by their theology have shown themselves outside the Historic Christian Faith.



So wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them by these terms instead of Christians? We don't call RC's Roman Catholic Christians. Shouldn't we just acknowledge them as non-Christians and be a witness to them? Why do you expect more from these non-Christians than other non-Christians? As far as giving Christianity a bad name, I'm sure that I am guilty of doing such a thing on a regular bases. There are many ppl in America who claim Christianity who are in deep, unrepentant sin who are giving Christianity a bad name. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit doesn't rely on any of us to do His work of justification. Non-Christians can see the light of true Christians while acknowledging that those same said Christians are not perfect. I don't think it's our job to quench the fire of every group which claims Christianity and yet is clearly not Christian. I think it's our job to spread the truth of the Gospel to all those to whom we can.


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## VilnaGaon

OPC'n said:


> VilnaGaon said:
> 
> 
> 
> These Arab '""Christians"" I refer to are mostly Coptic, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox and Maronite who by their theology have shown themselves outside the Historic Christian Faith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them by these terms instead of Christians? We don't call RC's Roman Catholic Christians. Shouldn't we just acknowledge them as non-Christians and be a witness to them? Why do you expect more from these non-Christians than other non-Christians? As far as giving Christianity a bad name, I'm sure that I am guilty of doing such a thing on a regular bases. There are many ppl in America who claim Christianity who are in deep, unrepentant sin who are giving Christianity a bad name. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit doesn't rely on any of us to do His work of justification. Non-Christians can see the light of true Christians while acknowledging that those same said Christians are not perfect. I don't think it's our job to quench the fire of every group which claims Christianity and yet is clearly not Christian. I think it's our job to spread the truth of the Gospel to all those to whom we can.
Click to expand...


When these groups call themselves Christian and openly and publicly hate Muslims we should repudiate their profession of Christianity. The difference between Roman Catholics, Copts, Orthodox and other non-Christians like Hindus and Sikhs is that Hindu and Sikhs do not profess the title Christian while holding to their wicked beliefs and practices like these groups do. A hypocrite is worse than an infidel.


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## TimV

Jacob, before you develop such passionate opinions you should really broaden your knowledge base. Sorry, but the books you get your information from seem rather inbred, judging by your posts.

First, Copts aren't Arabs. Second, there are no examples to my knowledge of Armenians persecuting Jews to the extent that they deserved to have a half million plus murdered my Muslims. Thirdly, well, I hardly know where to go, since your posts are based on passion that you've picked up somewhere and are so ambiguous that they are hard to answer in any event.



> Sorry, I can't shed too many tears for these false ""Christians"" being persecuted by Muslims, when they do likewise to the Jews.



OK, make a list of these "false Christians" and what specifically they did to Jews.



> I believe from Romans 11, that we should take care how we treat God's ancient people ---- the Jews.



Copts and Assyrians and Armenians are even more ancient than the Jews, and the half the Assyrians and more than half of the Armenians are orthodox Christians. The Palestinian Christian are Jews. Specifically those Jews who converted to Christianity at the very time of Christ, thus they are doubly Jews, ethnically, which is of no importance, and spiritually, which makes those elect among them our brethren.


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## kvanlaan

> First, Copts aren't Arabs.



They're indigenous to Egypt. They are considered "Arab-Christians".


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## TimV

They still use a form of the Egyptian language in their liturgy. They are (lately) largely Arabized, though as you say. They aren't orthodox Christians.


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## VilnaGaon

TimV said:


> Jacob, before you develop such passionate opinions you should really broaden your knowledge base. Sorry, but the books you get your information from seem rather inbred, judging by your posts.
> 
> First, Copts aren't Arabs. Second, there are no examples to my knowledge of Armenians persecuting Jews to the extent that they deserved to have a half million plus murdered my Muslims. Thirdly, well, I hardly know where to go, since your posts are based on passion that you've picked up somewhere and are so ambiguous that they are hard to answer in any event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't shed too many tears for these false ""Christians"" being persecuted by Muslims, when they do likewise to the Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, make a list of these "false Christians" and what specifically they did to Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe from Romans 11, that we should take care how we treat God's ancient people ---- the Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Copts and Assyrians and Armenians are even more ancient than the Jews, and the half the Assyrians and more than half of the Armenians are orthodox Christians. The Palestinian Christian are Jews. Specifically those Jews who converted to Christianity at the very time of Christ, thus they are doubly Jews, ethnically, which is of no importance, and spiritually, which makes those elect among them our brethren.
Click to expand...


I would refer you to Rabbi Marc Angel's book ""Foundations of Sephardic Spirtuality"" in which he discusses the persecution inflicted on Jews by Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I have loaned my copy out or I could give you the exact page and reference. 
Bat Yeor in her book ""The decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam"" points out that the Islamic Laws of Dhimmitude which are used to persecute and subjugate Copts and other Orthodox in Muslim Lands were derived from the Laws which these """Christians"" used to oppress and subjugate Jews just prior to the Islamic Conquest. 

I am well aware of the questionable theory circulating in Israeli Academic circles by Professor Sand who states that there was no deportation of the Jews by the Romans in 70AD and that the Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the descendants of the original Jews. His book was a bestseller in Israel and I hope to get the English translation which is due to come out next year. Perhaps you could recommend another author on this interesting theory. 
However I would not consider Palestinian Orthodox or Copts or any Eastern Orthodox as Christians because they deny Justification by Faith Alone without the Works of the Law which as Luther rightly stated is the doctrine on which a Church stands or falls. 
I am constantly expanding my ""Knowledge Base"" , so any books on this topic which you or anyone would care to recommend is appreciated. BTW I am a Redneck, so I do get passionate and I don't apologise for that.


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## TimV

> I would refer you to Rabbi Marc Angel's book ""Foundations of Sephardic Spirtuality"" in which he discusses the persecution inflicted on Jews by Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I have loaned my copy out or I could give you the exact page and reference.



A Jewish book on the persecution of Jews by others? Anything else?




> Bat Yeor in her book ""The decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam"" points out that the Islamic Laws of Dhimmitude which are used to persecute and subjugate Copts and other Orthodox in Muslim Lands were derived from the Laws which these """Christians"" used to oppress and subjugate Jews just prior to the Islamic Conquest.



Copts are *not* orthodox. It's not something that has to do with personal opinion, Jacob.



> I am well aware of the questionable theory circulating in Israeli Academic circles by Professor Sand who states that there was no deportation of the Jews by the Romans in 70AD and that the Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the descendants of the original Jews. His book was a bestseller in Israel and I hope to get the English translation which is due to come out next year. Perhaps you could recommend another author on this interesting theory.



In the mean time, Texas A&M has a site Anthropology In The News, where you can get a broader viewpoint on these sorts of things, including several DNA studies. I do not recommend just one book on the subject.



> However I would not consider Palestinian Orthodox or Copts or any Eastern Orthodox as Christians because they deny Justification by Faith Alone without the Works of the Law which as Luther rightly stated is the doctrine on which a Church stands or falls.



Jacob, your consideration has nothing to do with it. The word orthodox has a specific meaning agreed upon by everyone. Like Bush, or Door, or Bear.



> BTW I am a Redneck, so I do get passionate and I don't apologise for that.



Well, there are a lot of Christian Zionist Rednecks. In fact, that's pretty much their population base, but you're the first one I've met who blames Muslim bad behavior on Christians.....


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## Turtle

VilnaGaon said:


> These so-called Arab ""Christians"" are no more Christian than Roman Catholics are. The hatred they demonstrate to Muslims here in the Free World, while calling themselves Christian, gives True Christians who witness to Muslims a bad name.




Everyone has the capacity to hate and oppose, but we don't always hate and oppose the right things. This is no surprise, seeing that even the disciples didn't always get it right. In Mark 9:33 the disciples were disputing among themselves who was the greatest but they were too embarrassed to answer when Jesus asked them what they were discussing. As an object lesson He put a young child in their midst and told them that whoever desired to be first would be last. 

Feeling a bit rebuked perhaps, John spoke up to recover some standing (a good name) by announcing they had forbade one who did not follow them, but Jesus then continued the lesson. In essence, "ok, if the conversation must be about what we oppose then lets talk about opposing." If thy hand offend thee cut it off. If they foot offend thee, cut it off. If thine eye offend thee pluck it out. For it is better to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes be cast into hell fire. Have salt in yourselves. 

If a Muslim is going to point fingers at who hates him (and accuse others by association) then he is just delaying a conversation about his own hatred and the necessity to be reconciled to God. 

Bryan


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## VilnaGaon

TimV said:


> I would refer you to Rabbi Marc Angel's book ""Foundations of Sephardic Spirtuality"" in which he discusses the persecution inflicted on Jews by Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I have loaned my copy out or I could give you the exact page and reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Jewish book on the persecution of Jews by others? Anything else?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bat Yeor in her book ""The decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam"" points out that the Islamic Laws of Dhimmitude which are used to persecute and subjugate Copts and other Orthodox in Muslim Lands were derived from the Laws which these """Christians"" used to oppress and subjugate Jews just prior to the Islamic Conquest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Copts are *not* orthodox. It's not something that has to do with personal opinion, Jacob.
> 
> 
> 
> In the mean time, Texas A&M has a site Anthropology In The News, where you can get a broader viewpoint on these sorts of things, including several DNA studies. I do not recommend just one book on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However I would not consider Palestinian Orthodox or Copts or any Eastern Orthodox as Christians because they deny Justification by Faith Alone without the Works of the Law which as Luther rightly stated is the doctrine on which a Church stands or falls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacob, your consideration has nothing to do with it. The word orthodox has a specific meaning agreed upon by everyone. Like Bush, or Door, or Bear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW I am a Redneck, so I do get passionate and I don't apologise for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, there are a lot of Christian Zionist Rednecks. In fact, that's pretty much their population base, but you're the first one I've met who blames Muslim bad behavior on Christians.....
Click to expand...


I am not a Christian Zionist, I am amillennial. The Church is the People of God not the Jews, However they are God''s Ancient People and are beloved for the fathers sake (Rom 11;28) 
I am surprised that you would dismiss a book just because it was written by a Jew. 
As regards the Orthodox, if we regard the Roman Catholics as not Christian as many on this board do, we should regard their Orthodox Brothers likewise. 

Armenian atrocities against Jews in the Ottoman Empirehttp://http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/45315/armenian-atrocities-against-jews-in-the-ottoman-empire.html I hope the link works.


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## TimV

> I am not a Christian Zionist, I am amillennial. The Church is the People of God not the Jews, However they are God''s Ancient People and are beloved for the fathers sake (Rom 11;28)



Gotta disagree with you there, brother. Karl Marx and Scooter Libby aren't loved by God any more than some Armenian that was murdered by Ataturk.



> I am surprised that you would dismiss a book just because it was written by a Jew.



I would never do that. But I did a quick google on the author and want something more mainstream. Especially since you are making such a grave allegation.



> As regards the Orthodox, if we regard the Roman Catholics as not Christian as many on this board do, we should regard their Orthodox Brothers likewise.



Jacob, if you're not willing to do a half hour worth of study, I'm finished with you on this subject. Please look into it and tell me if monophysites are orthodox. I'm open, I assure you, but I want equal effort on your part!

-----Added 10/11/2009 at 05:39:05 EST-----

Jacob, against my better judgment I went to the article you linked to.



> "*Jewish resentment against the continued persecution and ritual murder attacks by Greeks and Armenians *led to such hatred that, for example, many Jews actively assisted the attacks of Kurds and Lazzes on the Armenian quarters of Istanbul in 1896 and 1908, showing the Kurds where Armenians lived and where many of them were hiding and joining them in carrying away the booty. The result was even greater Armenian hatred for Jews than had been the case before, leading to further persecution and attacks in subsequent years'" (Shaw, The Jews..., p. 210).



Friend, I would like you to PM me the email or phone number of one of the elders of the church you attend.


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## VilnaGaon

TimV said:


> I am not a Christian Zionist, I am amillennial. The Church is the People of God not the Jews, However they are God''s Ancient People and are beloved for the fathers sake (Rom 11;28)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta disagree with you there, brother. Karl Marx and Scooter Libby aren't loved by God any more than some Armenian that was murdered by Ataturk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised that you would dismiss a book just because it was written by a Jew.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would never do that. But I did a quick google on the author and want something more mainstream. Especially since you are making such a grave allegation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As regards the Orthodox, if we regard the Roman Catholics as not Christian as many on this board do, we should regard their Orthodox Brothers likewise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacob, if you're not willing to do a half hour worth of study, I'm finished with you on this subject. Please look into it and tell me if monophysites are orthodox. I'm open, I assure you, but I want equal effort on your part!
Click to expand...

Tim , the Copts do consider themselves Orthodox. The name of their denomination is the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Im aware of the Monophysite Schism after the Council of Chalcedon and that they are Monophysites like the Syrian Orthodox in the Middle East and India. But if these groups consider themselves Orthodox who are we to dispute that!!
If you want a more Mainstream author on the subject of Armenian Persecution of Jews, I will get Simon Wiesenthal's book on the Persecution of Jews over the last 2000 years. ( I have been looking for an excuse to buy that book)
BTW Rabbi Marc Angel is an authority on the Sephardim. His book is published by Jewish Lights---a respected Orthodox Jewish Publisher.


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## TimV

> But if these groups consider themselves Orthodox who are we to dispute that!!



Are you serious?



> If you want a more Mainstream author on the subject of Armenian Persecution of Jews, I will get Simon Wiesenthal's book on the Persecution of Jews over the last 2000 years. ( I have been looking for an excuse to buy that book)



Wiesenthal is a writer of holocaust fiction. His book Night is actually listed under fiction at your library. Wiesenthal simply is not someone, even a Jewish holocaust expert would go to for factual claims about Jewish persecution. And you would know this if you expanded your reading.

Here is a picture he drew of Jews being murdered by Germans







Here is a picture Time Magazine showed of German spies being executed by the US army






Wiesenthal is liar, who copied the picture of German spies shot by the US army and portrayed them as Jewish martyrs.

Again, Wiesenthal's exaggerations are so taken for granted in War Crimes discussion communities that you pretty much automatically loose a debate if you appeal to him.

Just like the KVJ onlies claims, I'll need a source from an accredited institute of higher learning before I take it seriously.


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## VilnaGaon

TimV said:


> But if these groups consider themselves Orthodox who are we to dispute that!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a more Mainstream author on the subject of Armenian Persecution of Jews, I will get Simon Wiesenthal's book on the Persecution of Jews over the last 2000 years. ( I have been looking for an excuse to buy that book)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wiesenthal is a writer of holocaust fiction. His book Night is actually listed under fiction at your library. Wiesenthal simply is not someone, even a Jewish holocaust expert would go to for factual claims about Jewish persecution. And you would know this if you expanded your reading.
> 
> Here is a picture he drew of Jews being murdered by Germans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture Time Magazine showed of German spies being executed by the US army
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiesenthal is liar, who copied the picture of German spies shot by the US army and portrayed them as Jewish martyrs.
> 
> Again, Wiesenthal's exaggerations are so taken for granted in War Crimes discussion communities that you pretty much automatically loose a debate if you appeal to him.
> 
> Just like the KVJ onlies claims, I'll need a source from an accredited institute of higher learning before I take it seriously.
Click to expand...

Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.


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## calgal

Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons?


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## TimV

> Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.



You're jumping from my statement the Weisenthal isn't considered a factual Holocaust historian to wondering about my belief in a large scale killing of Jews during WW2, which says more about your understanding of both debate and historiography than it does about anything else.

As to your question, if you'd broaden your reading you would know that Raul Hilberg, who died recently and was considered the "Dean" of holocaust studies used a figure 900,000 less that 6 million. You would know that Gert Reitlinger, who is still considered one of the top 5 holocaust historians of all time used a figure of 4.6 million Jews killed during WW2.

But Jacob, your reading isn't broad. And you don't know these things. 

For now, I'll accept Hilberg and Reitlinger if that will help you. Please do me the courtesy of doing an hour or so of research and giving me your opinion of Hilberg and Reitlinger.

-----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:19:44 EST-----



> Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons?



Gail, no one knows for sure how many people the nazis killed. We can only guess. Certainly there were millions of Slavs and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. The first people killed by HCN at Auschwitz (according to Commandant Hoess) were 200 Russian POWs.

The first deaths caused by homicidal gas chambers are easier to ascertain, since German records are more detailed than, say, Romanian records. So we start off immediately with 80,000 ethnic Germans "useless eaters" killed in 6 carbon monoxide chambers scattered around Germany, then expanding to mental health hospitals in Belarus in the "14F13" action, then getting bigger.

7 million? Perhaps, but that seems high. I'm open do discussing it!


----------



## VilnaGaon

TimV said:


> Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're jumping from my statement the Weisenthal isn't considered a factual Holocaust historian to wondering about my belief in a large scale killing of Jews during WW2, which says more about your understanding of both debate and historiography than it does about anything else.
> 
> As to your question, if you'd broaden your reading you would know that Raul Hilberg, who died recently and was considered the "Dean" of holocaust studies used a figure 900,000 less that 6 million. You would know that Gert Reitlinger, who is still considered one of the top 5 holocaust historians of all time used a figure of 4.6 million Jews killed during WW2.
> 
> But Jacob, your reading isn't broad. And you don't know these things.
> 
> For now, I'll accept Hilberg and Reitlinger if that will help you. Please do me the courtesy of doing an hour or so of research and giving me your opinion of Hilberg and Reitlinger.
> 
> -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:19:44 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gail, no one knows for sure how many people the nazis killed. We can only guess. Certainly there were millions of Slavs and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. The first people killed by HCN at Auschwitz (according to Commandant Hoess) were 200 Russian POWs.
> 
> The first deaths caused by homicidal gas chambers are easier to ascertain, since German records are more detailed than, say, Romanian records. So we start off immediately with 80,000 ethnic Germans "useless eaters" killed in 6 carbon monoxide chambers scattered around Germany, then expanding to mental health hospitals in Belarus in the "14F13" action, then getting bigger.
> 
> 7 million? Perhaps, but that seems high. I'm open do discussing it!
Click to expand...


Tim you are right, I should not have suspected you as a Holocaust denier just on the basis of your rejection of Wiesenthal, However I have met too many Holocaust deniers in the Reformed Church not to become suspicious. I accept your criticism of my narrow reading and as I am always looking for an excuse to buy more books, I will buy and read Hilberg's book on the Holocaust. I have only read Wiesenthal on this topic so far. 
However I would like your response to the fact that the Copts regard themselves as Orthodox as evidenced by the name of their denomination---Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.


----------



## TimV

I'll let someone with better theological training than me answer the question as to whether the Copts are orthodox, holding to the ecumenical councils.

Thanks for your graciousness.


----------



## calgal

TimV said:


> Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're jumping from my statement the Weisenthal isn't considered a factual Holocaust historian to wondering about my belief in a large scale killing of Jews during WW2, which says more about your understanding of both debate and historiography than it does about anything else.
> 
> As to your question, if you'd broaden your reading you would know that Raul Hilberg, who died recently and was considered the "Dean" of holocaust studies used a figure 900,000 less that 6 million. You would know that Gert Reitlinger, who is still considered one of the top 5 holocaust historians of all time used a figure of 4.6 million Jews killed during WW2.
> 
> But Jacob, your reading isn't broad. And you don't know these things.
> 
> For now, I'll accept Hilberg and Reitlinger if that will help you. Please do me the courtesy of doing an hour or so of research and giving me your opinion of Hilberg and Reitlinger.
> 
> -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:19:44 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gail, no one knows for sure how many people the nazis killed. We can only guess. Certainly there were millions of Slavs and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. The first people killed by HCN at Auschwitz (according to Commandant Hoess) were 200 Russian POWs.
> 
> The first deaths caused by homicidal gas chambers are easier to ascertain, since German records are more detailed than, say, Romanian records. So we start off immediately with 80,000 ethnic Germans "useless eaters" killed in 6 carbon monoxide chambers scattered around Germany, then expanding to mental health hospitals in Belarus in the "14F13" action, then getting bigger.
> 
> 7 million? Perhaps, but that seems high. I'm open do discussing it!
Click to expand...


The number I heard (and trust me I had this stuff rammed into my little head from way too early an age so excuse me for sarcastically discussing genocide) was 4.5-6 million Jews with a grand total of 13 million for Hitler along with 20-25 million for Stalin and uncounted millions for Mao. 6 million was a high estimate but it does account for some action on the Eastern front where record keeping was secondary to the "fun" of mass extermination. 

-----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:51:24 EST-----



TimV said:


> I'll let someone with better theological training than me answer the question as to whether the Copts are orthodox, holding to the ecumenical councils.
> 
> Thanks for your graciousness.



Tim One thought that might help: the term Orthodox like the term Catholic has two meanings. Orthodox for the Copts is like Catholic (big C) for a follower of Benedict XVI.


----------



## Montanablue

calgal said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're jumping from my statement the Weisenthal isn't considered a factual Holocaust historian to wondering about my belief in a large scale killing of Jews during WW2, which says more about your understanding of both debate and historiography than it does about anything else.
> 
> As to your question, if you'd broaden your reading you would know that Raul Hilberg, who died recently and was considered the "Dean" of holocaust studies used a figure 900,000 less that 6 million. You would know that Gert Reitlinger, who is still considered one of the top 5 holocaust historians of all time used a figure of 4.6 million Jews killed during WW2.
> 
> But Jacob, your reading isn't broad. And you don't know these things.
> 
> For now, I'll accept Hilberg and Reitlinger if that will help you. Please do me the courtesy of doing an hour or so of research and giving me your opinion of Hilberg and Reitlinger.
> 
> -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:19:44 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gail, no one knows for sure how many people the nazis killed. We can only guess. Certainly there were millions of Slavs and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. The first people killed by HCN at Auschwitz (according to Commandant Hoess) were 200 Russian POWs.
> 
> The first deaths caused by homicidal gas chambers are easier to ascertain, since German records are more detailed than, say, Romanian records. So we start off immediately with 80,000 ethnic Germans "useless eaters" killed in 6 carbon monoxide chambers scattered around Germany, then expanding to mental health hospitals in Belarus in the "14F13" action, then getting bigger.
> 
> 7 million? Perhaps, but that seems high. I'm open do discussing it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The number I heard (and trust me I had this stuff rammed into my little head from way too early an age so excuse me for sarcastically discussing genocide) was 4.5-6 million Jews with a grand total of 13 million for Hitler along with 20-25 million for Stalin and uncounted millions for Mao. 6 million was a high estimate but it does account for some action on the Eastern front where record keeping was secondary to the "fun" of mass extermination.
Click to expand...



I think that 13 million (which is a number including Jews, gypsies, mentally disabled, JWs, homosexuals, Christian dissenters, political prisoners, pows and all the rest) is the number that most of agreed upon. 6 million may sound high, but like you point out, it accounts for what happened on the eastern front (particularly in places like Belarus) where the records kept weren't as accurate. At any rate even if its not 6 million, its still one of the largest genocides we've ever seen - Only after Stalin and Mao, I think.

Edit: I should clarify that that 13 million number also includes people who weren't targeted for genocide but who also were not combatants - for example, people who broke curfew and were shot by the soldiers, Poles who ran afoul of the German officers etc.


----------



## TimV

> The number I heard (and trust me I had this stuff rammed into my little head from way too early an age so excuse me for sarcastically discussing genocide) was 4.5-6 million Jews with a grand total of 13 million for Hitler along with 20-25 million for Stalin and uncounted millions for Mao. 6 million was a high estimate but it does account for some action on the Eastern front where record keeping was secondary to the "fun" of mass extermination.



Truly the 4.5 to 6 million figure for Jews is what scholar currently accept as within the bounds of holocaust orthodoxy. I'm impressed but not surprised, considering your current event posts over the years.

Total numbers vary all over the board, but consensus seems to be that Stalin killed more, but Hitler was more efficient (national characteristic stereotypes, anyone?) in that between 1939 and 1945 Hitler killed more people, but since Stalin's reign was longer he killed the most.

By any account, Slavs had it worst of all, with somewhere between 25 and 35million killed, but since they're at least nominally Christian, no one cares.

-----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:55:04 EST-----

I'm with you, Kathleen.


----------



## kvanlaan

Mao was the big man on campus when it came to tyrannical dictators and the death of his own people. Please excuse the obese quote:



> 7. People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
> * Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
> o Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
> o Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
> o Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
> o Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
> o Labor Camps: 20M
> o Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
> o TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
> * Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
> o Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
> + Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
> + Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
> + Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
> + Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
> * Brzezinski:
> o Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
> o Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
> o TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
> * Daniel Chirot:
> o Land reform, 1949-56
> + According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
> + According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
> o Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
> o Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
> * Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
> o Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
> o Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
> o Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
> o Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
> o Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
> o TOTAL under Mao: 70M
> * Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
> * Eckhardt:
> o Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
> o Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
> * Gilbert:
> o 1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
> * Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
> o They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
> o Cited by G & P:
> + Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
> + The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
> + A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
> + (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
> * Guinness Book of World Records:
> o Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
> + On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
> + In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
> + The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
> * Harff and Gurr:
> o KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
> o Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
> * John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
> * Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
> o Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
> o Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
> o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
> * Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
> o Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
> o Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
> o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
> * R. J. Rummel:
> o Estimate:
> + Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
> # The principle episodes being...
> * All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
> o incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
> * Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
> * Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
> * Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
> + War: 3,399,000
> + Famine: 34,500,000
> # Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
> + TOTAL: 72,260,000
> o Cited in Rummel:
> + Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
> + World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
> + Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
> + Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
> + Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
> + Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
> * Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
> o 1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
> o Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
> o 2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
> o Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
> o Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
> o Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
> o Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
> o Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
> o Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
> o Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
> o TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
> o TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
> * July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
> o Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
> o Cong Jin: 40 million
> o Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
> * Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
> o Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
> * WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
> * Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
> * Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
> o Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
> o Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
> o Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
> o Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
> o Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
> o This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
> * Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
> 1. "If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
> 2. "Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
> * ... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)
> 8. Tibet (1950 et seq.): 600 000
> * Chinese occupation. (For the most part, it's already been included in the numbers above.)
> o Free Tibet Campaign [http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact1.html]
> + Tibetans killed by the Chinese since 1950: 1,200,000
> + Died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984: up to 260,000
> + 1959 Uprising: 430,000 died
> # K. in Reprisals: 87,000
> o Our Times: 1,200,000
> o Courtois: 600,000 - 1,200,000
> o Walker, Robert: 500,000-1,000,000 (all ethnic minorities)
> o Rummel: 375,000 democides inflicted on etnic minorities
> + ... incl 150,000 Tibetans
> o Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
> o Eckhardt:
> + 1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
> + 1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
> o Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
> o Small & Singer say that China lost 40,000 soldiers in Tibet between 1956 and '59.



It was the Great Leap Forward which really tagged on some zeroes to the tally.


----------



## VilnaGaon

kvanlaan said:


> Mao was the big man on campus when it came to tyrannical dictators and the death of his own people. Please excuse the obese quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7. People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
> * Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
> o Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
> o Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
> o Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
> o Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
> o Labor Camps: 20M
> o Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
> o TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
> * Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
> o Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
> + Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
> + Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
> + Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
> + Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
> * Brzezinski:
> o Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
> o Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
> o TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
> * Daniel Chirot:
> o Land reform, 1949-56
> + According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
> + According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
> o Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
> o Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
> * Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
> o Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
> o Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
> o Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
> o Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
> o Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
> o TOTAL under Mao: 70M
> * Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
> * Eckhardt:
> o Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
> o Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
> * Gilbert:
> o 1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
> * Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
> o They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
> o Cited by G & P:
> + Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
> + The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
> + A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
> + (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
> * Guinness Book of World Records:
> o Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
> + On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
> + In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
> + The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
> * Harff and Gurr:
> o KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
> o Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
> * John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
> * Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
> o Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
> o Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
> o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
> * Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
> o Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
> o Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
> o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
> * R. J. Rummel:
> o Estimate:
> + Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
> # The principle episodes being...
> * All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
> o incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
> * Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
> * Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
> * Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
> + War: 3,399,000
> + Famine: 34,500,000
> # Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
> + TOTAL: 72,260,000
> o Cited in Rummel:
> + Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
> + World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
> + Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
> + Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
> + Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
> + Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
> * Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
> o 1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
> o Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
> o 2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
> o Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
> o Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
> o Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
> o Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
> o Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
> o Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
> o Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
> o TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
> o TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
> * July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
> o Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
> o Cong Jin: 40 million
> o Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
> * Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
> o Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
> * WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
> * Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
> * Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
> o Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
> o Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
> o Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
> o Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
> o Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
> o This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
> * Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
> 1. "If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
> 2. "Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
> * ... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)
> 8. Tibet (1950 et seq.): 600 000
> * Chinese occupation. (For the most part, it's already been included in the numbers above.)
> o Free Tibet Campaign [http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact1.html]
> + Tibetans killed by the Chinese since 1950: 1,200,000
> + Died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984: up to 260,000
> + 1959 Uprising: 430,000 died
> # K. in Reprisals: 87,000
> o Our Times: 1,200,000
> o Courtois: 600,000 - 1,200,000
> o Walker, Robert: 500,000-1,000,000 (all ethnic minorities)
> o Rummel: 375,000 democides inflicted on etnic minorities
> + ... incl 150,000 Tibetans
> o Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
> o Eckhardt:
> + 1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
> + 1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
> o Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
> o Small & Singer say that China lost 40,000 soldiers in Tibet between 1956 and '59.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the Great Leap Forward which really tagged on some zeroes to the tally.
Click to expand...

What a butcher!!! He is still a darling to many Lefties today. Go figure!

-----Added 10/13/2009 at 11:32:34 EST-----

Richard Nixon in his book ""Leaders"" opines that Mao killed more people than any other Dictator.


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## MrMerlin777

A good friend of mine who I served with in the navy (quite a few years ago now), his Christian family fled from Pakistan when the villiage he was born in was invaded and burned by muslim extreemists they killed the men, raped and enslaved the women and burned the buildings and other property. I heard about this from the very words of Shabaz's father. As he told me the story their were tears in his eyes. He struggles to forgive as he knows he ought. He has no great love for Muslims or the pack of lies from Hell called Islam.

Granted, Shabaz and his family are Pakistani and not Arab but I think the anger is similar and perhaps even understandable.


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## VilnaGaon

MrMerlin777 said:


> A good friend of mine who I served with in the navy (quite a few years ago now), his Christian family fled from Pakistan when the villiage he was born in was invaded and burned by muslim extreemists they killed the men, raped and enslaved the women and burned the buildings and other property. I heard about this from the very words of Shabaz's father. As he told me the story their were tears in his eyes. He struggles to forgive as he knows he ought. He has no great love for Muslims or the pack of lies from Hell called Islam.
> 
> Granted, Shabaz and his family are Pakistani and not Arab but I think the anger is similar and perhaps even understandable.


I can understand and sympathise with anyone who went through that!!!
But I have no sympathy with any Christian who publicly humilates an innocent Muslim here in the West as a retaliation for what he/she went through back home. Or calling talk shows and using the most profane language in describing Muslims while identifying oneself as a Christian. I know of enough instances in both cases to be concerned.


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