# Human Freewill & God's Voluntary Impotency?



## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 20, 2005)

Hey gang, from where (within the context of Scripture) do the Arminian folk derive their "lofty argument" that God _willfully lays aside_ His sovereignty over humanity since He created them with a "freewill"? Can anyone cite this one for me? 

Thank you!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

Chuck;

I am discussing/debating this with some Arminians right now.

Check it out here;

http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=009291

Don't expect any answers from them that make much sense though!


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 20, 2005)

Adam -- thanks for the link. You have a lot of great posts on discussion. Lot of dancing on behalf of the "other guys." They don't believe that unregenerate man is really as bad as the Bible says he is. Lot of goofiness there...I think the root is in pride and arrogance. They esteem their estimations of themselves higher than God's revealed TRUTH on the matter. They need eyes to see and ears to hear...


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 20, 2005)

Since when has freewill been an inspiration to worship? I don't see it. Man's freewill _is_ part of the equation (albeit bound to the _nature_ of the creature), but it is like staring at the rear end of an elephant. Sure, that God made man a free moral agent is true, but how does that launch me to worship? I see God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY as the head of the elephat. "Look at those tusks! Look at those ears! Look at that trunk!" I am struck with awe. The rear end of the elephant just makes big piles of poop.

I don't think I have ever said, "God, I thank and praise You for making me a free moral agent! Thank you for my freewill! I worship You for giving me a freewill!" 

I know this is slightly tangential to the thread subject I posted, sorry if my 2 cents derailed the train at all.


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## bond-servant (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist_
> <snip> I see God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY as the head of the elephat. "Look at those tusks! Look at those ears! Look at that trunk!" I am struck with awe. <snip>.



Preach it brother!


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 20, 2005)

Josh -- that robot issue is rediculous. The sci-fi/technology boom must have been perceived as a great blessing for the Arminian camp. "Robots! That's it! Robots!"

I see what you mean, though. Any preferred methods of dismantling this argument?


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Preferred methods? Countless...ha ha. Will they walk with you through the Scriptures and be open minded?



Have you _ever_ known an Arminian to readily put the freewill golden calf out to pasture?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 20, 2005)

_Excellent_ fictional dialogue above, Josh!


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 21, 2005)

Rockin' submissions, Josh. Thank you! I think I'll opt for the "printer friendly" version of the thread and tuck those into my Bible to brush up tomorrow. 

My comment on the freewill golden calf was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the an Arminian's foul exaltation of the human freewill and it's alleged ability to trump God's sovereign design for creation.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 21, 2005)

Im the only person that wasnt born with free will everyone else is though


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## just_grace (Jan 21, 2005)

*Sovereign*

God rides forth conquering in the chariot of His Gospel. . . He conquers the pride of the heart, and makes the will which stood out as a Fort Royal against Him, to yield and stoop to His grace; He makes the stony heart bleed. 

This happened to me and I cannot deny it. 

And I cannot imagine God starting something He did not would not or could not finish.

As to the deep things of theology, well I leave that to those who wish to dwell in it, but for me...

O how deep are God's riches, wisdom, and knowledge!* How impossible to explain his judgments or to understand his ways! * "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become his adviser?

[Edited on 1-21-2005 by just_grace]


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## Average Joey (Jan 21, 2005)

Awesome thread!


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jan 21, 2005)

People (i.e. arminians) have an idea that God chooses people He likes to be saved, and leaves the rest of the nice people to die, unjustly.

Scripture teaches us that everyone is damned to hell for all eternity by nature - by birth - and that God has, in His free mercy, decided to save for Himself a nation out of the damned, worthless, vile sinners to be His people and proclaim His fame and magnify His holiness and uphold His namesake throughout the earth. This happens so that we can be ashamed of ourselves and focus on giving Him all the glory, knowing we are undeserving and that He acts according to His purpose, not ours.

Ezekiel 36:22-32. Read it. Study it. Remind others of it.



[Edited on 21-1-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


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