# PCA joining with PCUSA in missions - Yea or Nay?



## Mushroom (Jun 6, 2010)

PCA joining with PCUSA in missions - Yea or Nay? Arguments for or against? Scenarios where acceptable vs. those unacceptable?

Example: PCUSA Church serves a weekly lunch on Sat.s for the needy. Should a PCA Church help out with that?

Related question: Should a PCA Church join in an ecumenical mission of local Churches (wide variety), businesses and individuals that provides home repair services to the elderly and needy?

My initial reaction is that to join in these endeavors is being somewhat unequally yoked, but would like to hear what my PB brethren and sistren have to say.


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## Montanablue (Jun 6, 2010)

Is this actually happening?


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## Mushroom (Jun 6, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> Is this actually happening?


They have been proposed.


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## Pergamum (Jun 6, 2010)

Even unbelievers can do humanitarian works and believers can join with unbelievers in works of mercy. However, if there is an evangelistic component to this, make sure the PCUSA follows the PCA's lead and not vice versa.


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## Philip (Jun 6, 2010)

Is it acceptable for Christians to work at non-denominational non-profits? I say yes. What's so different about local churches coming together to help the poor?


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 6, 2010)

Actually...

I'm against it. Period.

Here's why: 

When we team up with various unbelievers to accomplish some temporal good, we must be mindful of what that "good" represents for not only ourselves but what it represents for those with whom we are partnering and to a lesser extent how it will be construed by those whom we are "helping." When we team up with a certain "non profit" type organization that won't necessarily exclude non-Christians, then ok, in that context we are typically talking about something in which everyone involved understands that we are simply being good citizens, concerned humans, etc...
But when we team up with a particular church or denomination, then suddenly this becomes "ministry" and social ministry must always function to create opportunities for the preaching of the Word, or at least support the proclamation of the Word. Partnering with denominations who define ministry in terms of helping people materially/socially, and the gospel in terms of psychological wholeness or material wellness, is essentially partnering in the propagation of a false gospel. I write as one whose ministry consists largely of worldlings coming to me wanting various social gospel type solutions to their problems, and as a good chaplain I do what I can to help their temporal woes hoping that in so doing I'm creating a possible "in" for the Gospel, but the truth of the matter is that worldings typically aren't interested in the Gospel - they only want your money or effort on their behalf to make their life better. And it certainly IS ok to contribute work or money or food to help people, but I can tell you that as a supposed _ministry_, it is very draining and potentially resource intensive. For a church, I'd recommend a very closely managed and well guarded approach to dealing with helping the poor materially.

Additionally, there are countless ways to involve oneself in the community for the betterment of the community. I think it is far wiser for the church to encourage members to get involved with various charitable organizations if they want to do that type of thing rather than have the church _as an organization_ spend valuable resources of time and money on managing/funding/staffing social programs. 

I'd say that if a PCA church is amenable to a Saturday breakfast for the poor as a ministry to them, then they should either do it themselves or team up with likeminded Christians who will understand this avenue of ministry within a larger orthodox context.


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## KMK (Jun 6, 2010)

I am not certain the PCUSA and PCA even agree on what the Gospel is.


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## ZackF (Jun 6, 2010)

I would think it could get pretty dicey. What about worship services?? Administering the sacraments with some ministerette? The problems would be numerous. I'll do humanitarian work with about anyone but worship is whole different subject.


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## Mushroom (Jun 6, 2010)

KS_Presby said:


> I would think it could get pretty dicey. What about worship services?? Administering the sacraments with some ministerette? The problems would be numerous. I'll do humanitarian work with about anyone but worship is whole different subject.


Worship services are not in view, but I'm certain there would be prayer before meals.


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## JBaldwin (Jun 6, 2010)

The local PCUSA church in my town joins up with the catholics and the methodists. I can't imagine our PCA church having anything to do with them.


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## Pergamum (Jun 6, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> Actually...
> 
> I'm against it. Period.
> 
> ...


 
brother, you're an army chaplain. Under your same logic, how do you yourself work. The Chaplain Corps has many unsound men and women.


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## sdesocio (Jun 7, 2010)

If we can't work along side people that aren't in total agreement with us, then doesn't that eliminate disaster response where we might be working along side many different NGo's that we might not agree with on anything. My PCA church partners with a Black Baptist church in a food pantry. Anyone who supports a local pregnancy center is probably working along side catholics. Join worship and joint service are different things.

While I might not partner with every church in the PCUSA, I think we need to watch out for painting a picture fare worst than reality. My father in law is a goodly and committed minister who God has called to serve in the PCUSA, while we might disagree on certain issues that prevent us from serving in the same denomination, we most certainly agree on the Gospel. No person has the right to judge another man's servant!


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 7, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> brother, you're an army chaplain. Under your same logic, how do you yourself work.


 
On the contrary, it ISN'T the same logic. 

The huge difference is that I'm not a church. 

But that aside, I'll have you know that I have NEVER partnered with another chaplain to do social "ministry." Additionally, I've bowed out of every opportunity that has come up in which I would have done "ministry" partnered with those outside the Faith. The only ones I've partnered with for _ministry_ purposes have been those of a Reformed leaning persuasion.


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## Christopher88 (Jun 7, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Is it acceptable for Christians to work at non-denominational non-profits? I say yes. What's so different about local churches coming together to help the poor?


 I would have disagree with you brother Philip and here is a life story to explain why. 
For five years I worked along side Christian brothers who did not hold to full biblical truth that is stated in the bible. During my last year with them (this is the year the reformed faith became real to me) I was at edge with the ministry side. I would be teaching one man about biblical truth and my friend would teach him false truths of the Western Church. This was a conflict in teaching. So it did hinder the gospel to be preached. For if two messages are being preach in contradiction to one another how can one come to know what is truth. 
Its like Joel Osteen and RC Sproul preaching the same guy at the same time. Not a good idea. 

On the mission field, doctrine has to be the same even if mainstream Christians don't think so. 

PCUSA is very liberal and I would say preach a different bible than what PCA does. 
I don't think this is a good idea for them to join together.

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sdesocio said:


> If we can't work along side people that aren't in total agreement with us, then doesn't that eliminate disaster response where we might be working along side many different NGo's that we might not agree with on anything. My PCA church partners with a Black Baptist church in a food pantry. Anyone who supports a local pregnancy center is probably working along side catholics. Join worship and joint service are different things.
> 
> While I might not partner with every church in the PCUSA, I think we need to watch out for painting a picture fare worst than reality. My father in law is a goodly and committed minister who God has called to serve in the PCUSA, while we might disagree on certain issues that prevent us from serving in the same denomination, we most certainly agree on the Gospel. No person has the right to judge another man's servant!


 
I understand your views, but should not mercy ministry's be preaching the whole truth? For we can feed them food together but can we lead them to truth together?


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## Pergamum (Jun 7, 2010)

Ben,

I didn't know you could do that in the army. But that is really cool if you can bow out of things and not work with unsound ministers.


Yet another reason for some PBers to join the chaplain corps, right!


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 7, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> I didn't know you could do that in the army. But that is really cool if you can bow out of things and not work with unsound ministers.



Please understand... it isn't like this type of thing comes up every week. Actually, I think there have only been 2 or 3 instances in almost 4 years. Aside from that, there are multiple ways to "get along" in the chaplaincy. One way is to be abrasive and unwilling to work with anyone on anything and to grumble and throw a tantrum when something comes your way. Another way is to do anything and everything. Yet another way is to volunteer for whatever you ARE willing/able to do - especially if it is considered undesirable by other chaplains - so that you build a good reputation so that when something does come along that you don't feel comfortable doing, when you ask for a bye you aren't perceived like a non-team player. So, for example, already here I volunteered to preach over Memorial Day weekend and that was much appreciated because no one else wanted to break up their long weekend. 

So please don't read my post thinking that I just come in and pick and choose what I'll do and then tell my superiors to take a hike whenever I don't feel like doing something.


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## KMK (Jun 7, 2010)

sdesocio said:


> My father in law is a goodly and committed minister who God has called to serve in the PCUSA, while we might disagree on certain issues that prevent us from serving in the same denomination, we most certainly agree on the Gospel. No person has the right to judge another man's servant!


 
I wasn't judging your father in law. I was simply asking a question. What does the PCUSA teach in regards to the gospel? Do they deny original sin?


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## Pergamum (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks, Ben, for the clarification. Wouldn't it be cool if about 10 more PBers joined the chaplain corps and then you could work even more comfortably with others.


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## Philip (Jun 7, 2010)

> I would have disagree with you brother Philip and here is a life story to explain why.
> For five years I worked along side Christian brothers who did not hold to full biblical truth that is stated in the bible. During my last year with them (this is the year the reformed faith became real to me) I was at edge with the ministry side. I would be teaching one man about biblical truth and my friend would teach him false truths of the Western Church. This was a conflict in teaching. So it did hinder the gospel to be preached. For if two messages are being preach in contradiction to one another how can one come to know what is truth.
> Its like Joel Osteen and RC Sproul preaching the same guy at the same time. Not a good idea.



In other words, ministries like Prison Fellowship or Young Life or the local crisis pregnancy center which do not require any sort of reformed doctrinal subscription are to be avoided?


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## raekwon (Jun 7, 2010)

Errr... wouldn't this (at least in part) depend on the actual churches involved, not just the denominations?

For example, my church (a PCA church) has worshiped in a building owned by a PC(USA) church ever since our inception in 2004. The PC(USA) church is orthodox in belief and practice. For several years, they have run various ministries to the poor in the community including a clothing room, giving away dinners for Thanksgiving, and a "Santa Shop" for the kids at Christmastime. Our church has participated and assisted in these ministries with them ever since we started using the building, because they fit with the mission we believe God has given us.

Attendance at the PC(USA) church recently dwindled to the point where they ceased meeting on Sunday mornings, and we took over primary use of the building (with the PC(USA) church maintaining ownership). Part of our lease agreement with them was that we would take over and continue their ministries to the neighborhood, which we were more than glad to do.

Now, we might not have done this if the PC(USA) church didn't preach the Gospel faithfully, but they did. Refusing to partner with them based solely upon their denomination's foibles would seem foolish to me.


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## Christopher88 (Jun 7, 2010)

> > I would have disagree with you brother Philip and here is a life story to explain why.
> > For five years I worked along side Christian brothers who did not hold to full biblical truth that is stated in the bible. During my last year with them (this is the year the reformed faith became real to me) I was at edge with the ministry side. I would be teaching one man about biblical truth and my friend would teach him false truths of the Western Church. This was a conflict in teaching. So it did hinder the gospel to be preached. For if two messages are being preach in contradiction to one another how can one come to know what is truth.
> > Its like Joel Osteen and RC Sproul preaching the same guy at the same time. Not a good idea.
> 
> ...


 
That is a tough issue. As a layman serving to build houses, relationships etc yes and no. If I am teacher and the staff I serve with are preaching another message than yes I will avoid them for biblical integrity. Just like if Joel Osteen had a ministry, while I could serve for the greater good of men along side of Him, I could not teach with him. Young life is a relationship building ministry, not so much a teaching ministry. 
Really brother it depends on the environment if I personally would serve with someone. If our messages will collide than I am hindering the mission considering I am the minority. (not in race, in belief) 
The gospel needs to be preached faithfully, and as a Christian I should not allow false teachings to be around. Just like I will speak against Osteen, but that does not mean I won't build someone a house with Osteen. 
Two differnt types of ministry. The house building ministry I would call more secular based ministry in which Christians help, the teaching ministry I would call solid Christian ministry. So in teaching, the ministry needs to be one in doctrine, in house building, it would be nice if all were one in doctrine but if that were a requirement no houses would be built.

I hope I don't sound like a dogmatic religious leader here, because my intent is to live for the glory of God, and do my part in making disciples of Christ, as the word commands us to do. (Something I love to do)


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## Grimmson (Jun 7, 2010)

Sonny said:


> PCUSA is very liberal and I would say preach a different bible than what PCA does.



It has been fully recognized that the majority of the PCUSA is liberal. However there are some remaining in the PCUSA that are orthodox and use the same translation of the scriptures as we do, mostly small older churches, so I think we should keep that in mind instead of continual reinforcement of the stereotype. 

We have enough problems with sending people out on missions and the need is great. If people, regardless if they are PCA or PCUSA know the gospel then it should be allowed to be proclaimed to the glory of God. I think we need to be careful not place our doctrine of worship over the gospel. It is not our doctrine of worship that saves you. I am reminded back to Philippians 1:15-20. If the life giving truth of Christ is proclaimed, regardless of the reason why someone is out there or their motives, I rejoice because Christ is proclaimed. Now if the partnership is just to give aid, there I would more hesitant because Christ is not being proclaimed; which is why I have had issues with some of the SBC work within my own denomination. In the end, recognizing God’s ordained means and the current spiritual need, since I am exclusivist, we need to be sending out as many people as we can and if another knows what the gospel is and is presenting it out on the field then I see no reason to partner up at least for preaching of the gospel and the pointing to a solid church; assuming if one party is not sticking around for the process of discipleship. 

Now with that said, my question is why does the PCA want to join the PCUSA on missions? Because after the gospel is preached and received, there are some real matters of concern that need to be dealt with concerning discipleship that should be addressed. And we don’t want to present confusion to the people that are being discipled. 

On a side note, I do have issues with churches helping the poor by providing monetary or various kinds of relief support when we have needs within our own churches which are ignored. It creates a false testimony of love by raising up the unbeliever compared to the confessing member of Christ’s church, which I see their biological needs as confessing members a bit more important from a worldly perspective. If a mission is to go to a another land and build a house, I do not have a problem. If the old lady at your church house is falling apart and she needs helps and has not received the help then I do have an issue there if such a house building ministry is taking place, because the needs of the church are being ignored. There no reason though why one cannot due both if the resources are there.



KMK said:


> sdesocio said:
> 
> 
> > My father in law is a goodly and committed minister who God has called to serve in the PCUSA, while we might disagree on certain issues that prevent us from serving in the same denomination, we most certainly agree on the Gospel. No person has the right to judge another man's servant!
> ...



I have seen them teach original sin. At least the PCUSA church I attended in High School did.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 7, 2010)

KS_Presby said:


> I would think it could get pretty dicey. What about worship services?? Administering the sacraments with some ministerette? The problems would be numerous. I'll do humanitarian work with about anyone but worship is whole different subject.


 
Or, as my wife would say, a "priestess."


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## ericfromcowtown (Jun 7, 2010)

raekwon said:


> For example, my church (a PCA church) has worshiped in a building owned by a PC(USA) church ever since our inception in 2004. The PC(USA) church is orthodox in belief and practice. For several years, they have run various ministries to the poor in the community including a clothing room, giving away dinners for Thanksgiving, and a "Santa Shop" for the kids at Christmastime. Our church has participated and assisted in these ministries with them ever since we started using the building, because they fit with the mission we believe God has given us.



Seriously? The fact that a church has a "Santa shop" raises alarm bells for me.


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## raekwon (Jun 7, 2010)

*shrug*

I find nothing alarming about a church having a place where children can pick out and wrap gifts for their family members, when they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it.

If it's the mere presence of the word "Santa" that's bothersome... well... okay, I guess.


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## Grimmson (Jun 8, 2010)

ericfromcowtown said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> > For example, my church (a PCA church) has worshiped in a building owned by a PC(USA) church ever since our inception in 2004. The PC(USA) church is orthodox in belief and practice. For several years, they have run various ministries to the poor in the community including a clothing room, giving away dinners for Thanksgiving, and a "Santa Shop" for the kids at Christmastime. Our church has participated and assisted in these ministries with them ever since we started using the building, because they fit with the mission we believe God has given us.
> ...


 
I would be one of the first to admit that many of the leaders of the PCUSA are anything but orthodox on several points as a denomination, such as with female pastors. But come on, lets not fault them on a Christmas ministry for kids because Santa is in the name of it. I could so see a creative lay person or a deacon, for that matter, with a pastor’s approval in a PCA church creating a similar name because they think it’s a cute title for kids. I could also see a SBC church doing it too. Now I don’t like the title either, primarily because I don’t approve of the teaching of the Santa myth by putting up of stockings and the false identity of who giving the presents/candy, but lets be careful not to fault a church or denomination for something that could easily be done by your own members of your domination. Not everyone in leadership in the PCA holds to the same Reformed view as many of us regarding issues like the second commandment or with covenant theology. And instead holds to a common evangelical and dispensational position. And it is for this reason why in which certain PCA churches may be willing and drawn to work and worship with like minded churches within that common evangelical sphere; whether that be PCUSA or United Methodists. Some of these churches have so much in common, if it wasnt for the church sign outside of the building you would think all these churches were of the same denomination, because the worship to the preaching is basically the same in some of these churches. So in a twisted way, it makes sense if some of these churches jointly work together for certain social ills of society, even though I would advise not to, specially worship, because of our differenting official confessions of faith.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jun 8, 2010)

Grimmson said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > raekwon said:
> ...


 
My apologies for side-tracking the thread. 

While there are obviously more fundamental ills of liberal churches, syncretism around holidays, In my humble opinion is a pretty easy clue that something deeper might be amiss. Santa at Christmas, hunting for easter eggs after the service at Easter, having a "safe and fun" Halloween at the church for the kids - why shouldn't I take an issue with this? Any of these would be cause for concern if they happened at my local church, and raise alarm bells when evaluating another church. The fact that the kids who you are helping celebrate the pagan aspects of Christmas happened to be disadvantaged shouldn't make the question out of bounds.

On the question of whether or not one should ever participate with the PCUSA or another liberal denomination on any mission or social work, I'm not sure.


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## raekwon (Jun 8, 2010)

I think that there's a difference between the mere use of the word "Santa" in the name of the activity (which is what I'm talking about), and using the activity to teach about the Santa mythos (which would indeed be cause for concern).


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