# ARP or PCA?



## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Due to military relocation, my wife and I are in the process of searching for a new church. In our area, we have been blessed with a choice between two different reformed congregations. I'll start out by saying that we have visited both (more than once), and we have found them to be faithful to the Scriptures and to our confession/standards. While this is great news, it also makes this process that much more difficult. We are coming from the OPC and will either be joining a ARP or PCA church. I'll just list some things about each, but I'd really appreciate any advice or comments. Thank you!

ARP
- Expository Preaching (this is a huge plus for me)
- Recites Creeds and WSC in liturgy
- Hymns and Psalms in worship
- Overall, the more conservative of the two

PCA
- Larger congregation, with more folks in our age group (20s/30s)
- Mostly topical preaching (not a fan)
- More "contemporary" music, though they do sing hymns...occasionally
- About five miles closer to our home


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## J.L. Allen (Apr 23, 2019)

Based alone on the differences and your coming from an OPC context, I'd say, hands down, ARP.

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## Kinghezy (Apr 23, 2019)

ARP, based on what you have (assuming no other factors). Only pro I see from your list for the PCA is distance. My guess, most advice will be ARP, since you list some trigger warnings for this board with expository preaching, psalm singing, and catechical instruction.

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## TheOldCourse (Apr 23, 2019)

TheBruisedReed said:


> Due to military relocation, my wife and I are in the process of searching for a new church. In our area, we have been blessed with a choice between two different reformed congregations. I'll start out by saying that we have visited both (more than once), and we have found them to be faithful to the Scriptures and to our confession/standards. While this is great news, it also makes this process that much more difficult. We are coming from the OPC and will either be joining a ARP or PCA church. I'll just list some things about each, but I'd really appreciate any advice or comments. Thank you!
> 
> ARP
> - Expository Preaching (this is a huge plus for me)
> ...



My two cents: nothing except perhaps the distance factor (and that's small here) really speaks in favor of this PCA church. It's nice to have folks in your age range, but that doesn't have much to do with faithful ministry and worship. As a young family there are advantages to being "forced" to spend more time with families of different age ranges too.

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## Hamalas (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm a lifelong member of the PCA.

Go ARP.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> Based alone on the differences and your coming from an OPC context, I'd say, hands down, ARP.


This is the direction I'm leaning.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

TheOldCourse said:


> My two cents: nothing except perhaps the distance factor (and that's small here) really speaks in favor of this PCA church. It's nice to have folks in your age range, but that doesn't have much to do with faithful ministry and worship. As a young family there are advantages to being "forced" to spend more time with families of different age ranges too.


An excellent point. Thank you.


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Hamalas said:


> I'm a lifelong member of the PCA.
> 
> Go ARP.


This elicited a chuckle, and then a feeling of sadness! But, thank you for the insight.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> ARP, based on what you have (assuming no other factors). Only pro I see from your list for the PCA is distance. My guess, most advice will be ARP, since you list some trigger warnings for this board with expository preaching, psalm singing, and catechical instruction.


To be fair, these are some big points to consider.


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## Kinghezy (Apr 23, 2019)

TheBruisedReed said:


> To be fair, these are some big points to consider.



Only meant that there may be other factors that I am not aware of. I agree that the items you list are worthy of consideration.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> Only meant that there may be other factors that I am not aware of. I agree that the items you list are worthy of consideration.


Yeah, after I sent that I felt I had worded it strangely. We are in accord!


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 23, 2019)

I’d suggest also considering: which church is more supportive of the unique challenges facing military families. (And no, not all churches are equal in this respect.)

Clearly some people here don’t know what they’re talking about: it is a tremendous blessing to have people your age - and especially if you have children, theirs. Which church has more military kids who share your kids’ experience? May not sound significant, but it really is.

Where are you being stationed?

Blessings,
Ben

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## Regi Addictissimus (Apr 23, 2019)

Just based on the above information, ARP. My wife and I are in the same process. Here in Grand Rapids, we have the rare issue of an abundance of Reformed congregations to choose from.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> I’d suggest also considering: which church is more supportive of the unique challenges facing military families. (And no, not all churches are equal in this respect.)
> 
> Clearly some people here don’t know what they’re talking about: it is a tremendous blessing to have people your age - and especially if you have children, theirs. Which church has more military kids who share your kids’ experience? May not sound significant, but it really is.
> 
> ...


Well, while I completely understand where you're coming from, we do not have any children. And the chances of us having our own are slim, to put it simply and politely. I would also like to state that the ARP does have a couple of families close to our age group. It's just that the PCA church has quite a bit more people overall. Percentage wise, it may even be about the same. It's just that we're looking at a congregation of forty(ish) at the ARP vs. over two hundred at the PCA.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Reformed Bookworm said:


> Just based on the above information, ARP. My wife and I are in the same process. Here in Grand Rapids, we have the rare issue of an abundance of Reformed congregations to choose from.


A real blessing indeed! I'm actually in Troy for work right now and there's two or three within five blocks of my hotel.

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## TylerRay (Apr 23, 2019)

I'd definitely go with th ARP in this situation--the ordinances of Christ are more faithfully administered there. There's nothing more important than that when forced to choose between congregations. You can expect that God will bless his ordinances with greater measures of efficacy where his law is loved and his name is feared.

Reactions: Like 6 | Amen 1


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

TylerRay said:


> I'd definitely go with th ARP in this situation--the ordinances of Christ are more faithfully administered there. There's nothing more important than that when forced to choose between congregations. You can expect that God will bless his ordinances with greater measures of efficacy where his law is loved and his name is feared.


This right here.

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## SolaScriptura (Apr 23, 2019)

Does the ARP church have deaconesses? If so, it should be a deal breaker.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> Does the ARP church have deaconesses? If so, it should be a deal breaker.


This is something left up to the presbytery. The one in consideration does not allow women to hold this office.

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## Jack K (Apr 23, 2019)

Everything you list has to do with the worship services: what they are like and how far away they are held. Worship services are important, no doubt, but the church is not just the services. Have you done anything to test out friendships or get to know the churches' leaders?

Which leaders would you most trust to shepherd you through a difficulty in life or a sinful incident on the part of you or your wife? Where can you quickly find Christian friends and fellowship, especially if your wife is like many military spouses and is in need of this? Where can you serve others, and bear burdens, and be comfortable confessing sins to your brothers?

Anyone here can tell you which service they think most closely fits their ideal. But you need to be asking yourself these other questions as well.

Reactions: Like 5 | Amen 1


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 23, 2019)

Jack K said:


> Everything you list has to do with the worship services: what they are like and how far away they are held. Worship services are important, no doubt, but the church is not just the services. Have you done anything to test out friendships or get to know the churches' leaders?
> 
> Which leaders would you most trust to shepherd you through a difficulty in life or a sinful incident on the part of you or your wife? Where can you quickly find Christian friends and fellowship, especially if your wife is like many military spouses and is in need of this? Where can you serve others, and bear burdens, and be comfortable confessing sins to your brothers?
> 
> Anyone here can tell you which service they think most closely fits their ideal. But you need to be asking yourself these other questions as well.


Indeed I do. Thank you for this valuable insight, truly.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Apr 23, 2019)

Settle on the place where the preaching is most faithful, the worship is most reverent and god-fearing, and the people are most godly and loving. No church will be perfect in any of these, nor will any have these qualities in equal measure. But every other consideration pales in comparison.

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## bookslover (Apr 24, 2019)

Isn't that the way life works? The church that seems better is the one that's farther away, naturally. Must be one of the rules of the universe, I guess.

In any case, based on your general information, I'd say go the ARP church (and I'm OPC, myself).

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## earl40 (Apr 24, 2019)

Choose the one where the Elders have the opportunity to check on you. I know it is politically incorrect in the USA to have them drop by unless they announce coming, but I am saying at least join a church which makes an effort to come by your home now and then to hang out and check how are you doing. If you join a "large" church you will probably not get what I am speaking about. Being an Elder is a hard job I know and I suspect home visits is one of the first to be let go when the congregation grows larger.

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## jwithnell (Apr 24, 2019)

Have you sought the counsel of your current session?

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Settle on the place where the preaching is most faithful, the worship is most reverent and god-fearing, and the people are most godly and loving. No church will be perfect in any of these, nor will any have these qualities in equal measure. But every other consideration pales in comparison.


Thank you very much.


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

bookslover said:


> Isn't that the way life works? The church that seems better is the one that's farther away, naturally. Must be one of the rules of the universe, I guess.
> 
> In any case, based on your general information, I'd say go the ARP church (and I'm OPC, myself).


Thanks Richard.


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Choose the one where the Elders have the opportunity to check on you. I know it is politically incorrect in the USA to have them drop by unless they announce coming, but I am saying at least join a church which makes an effort to come by your home now and then to hang out and check how are you doing. If you join a "large" church you will probably not get what I am speaking about. Being an Elder is a hard job I know and I suspect home visits is one of the first to be let go when the congregation grows larger.


This is definitely a good point. We have yet to exchange more than a hello/courteous nod with the PCA pastor. The gentleman at the ARP, however, has taken a few minutes after each service to get to know us.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

jwithnell said:


> Have you sought the counsel of your current session?


I must admit, I have not. And I will now be doing this today! Just because they're in AZ, doesn't mean they cannot help!


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## jwithnell (Apr 24, 2019)

And they have watch over you until you're joined to a new congregation.

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## Jo_Was (Apr 24, 2019)

The thing with both PCA and ARP is that they can have wide variance between individual congregations -- "It's like a box of chocolates..."

My husband and I were in the same situation about two years ago, and for us, it came down to that our local ARP was more conscientiously reformed (particularly with the new pastor that was called around when we started attending, so from what we could tell, the "future" was a theological path we were more comfortable with than some of our local PCA congregations), and we liked that there was a variation in generations (young and old), as well as clear ways in which we could serve. I think there's something to be said of a church whose demographic is not skewed to any particular generation (we're 20-somethings who felt very at home in a church with mixed generations, moreso than in some of our past experiences in churches with mostly 20-30 somethings; it's been such a blessing that some of my closest relationships now, just 2 years later, are with women three times my age, and young women half-mine; it has been a tremendous thing). I also think it's worth considering not just what you "receive" as a member, but also what ways you can contribute and serve the body, both you and your family. It was helpful for us to be introspective and really consider the needs of the church we were going into (possibly), and if we could actually meet some of those needs. That of course isn't the sole reason to attend a church, but I think it can help to be intentional about something like that--already considering the church's needs can help you to imagine what your role may be in becoming a part of it, and whether you are able and want to meet that.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 24, 2019)

Having a confessional approach to ecclesiology saves the ordinary Christian from agonising about whether or not he belongs to a particular congregation that is the purest of the pure (Westminster Confession 25.4). There is no sin for you in attending either of these congregations provided that they do not require you to do anything unbiblical in order to be a member.

Acknowledging the above point that both churches profess the true Reformed religion, administer the sacraments, and uphold church discipline "more or less purely", I think that it may be expedient to give more consideration to the PCA congregation. 

There are practical advantages to belonging to a bigger denomination and a congregation with more people in attendance. For one thing, you have the potential to influence more people for good in a larger church, while, conversely, you will probably have more people to encourage you when you need it. It is worth remembering that the church is not merely about you, but also about how you can employ the gifts that God has given you for the edification of Christ's body.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

jwithnell said:


> And they have watch over you until you're joined to a new congregation.


This is true.


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

Jo_Was said:


> The thing with both PCA and ARP is that they can have wide variance between individual congregations -- "It's like a box of chocolates..."
> 
> My husband and I were in the same situation about two years ago, and for us, it came down to that our local ARP was more conscientiously reformed (particularly with the new pastor that was called around when we started attending, so from what we could tell, the "future" was a theological path we were more comfortable with than some of our local PCA congregations), and we liked that there was a variation in generations (young and old), as well as clear ways in which we could serve. I think there's something to be said of a church whose demographic is not skewed to any particular generation (we're 20-somethings who felt very at home in a church with mixed generations, moreso than in some of our past experiences in churches with mostly 20-30 somethings; it's been such a blessing that some of my closest relationships now, just 2 years later, are with women three times my age, and young women half-mine; it has been a tremendous thing). I also think it's worth considering not just what you "receive" as a member, but also what ways you can contribute and serve the body, both you and your family. It was helpful for us to be introspective and really consider the needs of the church we were going into (possibly), and if we could actually meet some of those needs. That of course isn't the sole reason to attend a church, but I think it can help to be intentional about something like that--already considering the church's needs can help you to imagine what your role may be in becoming a part of it, and whether you are able and want to meet that.


Thank you very much for this post. This, and another post, have definitely caused me to "switch gears" with the way I have been approaching this situation.


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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Having a confessional approach to ecclesiology saves the ordinary Christian from agonising about whether or not he belongs to a particular congregation that is the purest of the pure (Westminster Confession 25.4). There is no sin for you in attending either of these congregations provided that they do not require you to do anything unbiblical in order to be a member.
> 
> Acknowledging the above point that both churches profess the true Reformed religion, administer the sacraments, and uphold church discipline "more or less purely", I think that it may be expedient to give more consideration to the PCA congregation.
> 
> There are practical advantages to belonging to a bigger denomination and a congregation with more people in attendance. For one thing, you have the potential to influence more people for good in a larger church, while, conversely, you will probably have more people to encourage you when you need it. It is worth remembering that the church is not merely about you, but also about how you can employ the gifts that God has given you for the edification of Christ's body.


Yes and amen. Thanks for the reply.

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## Edward (Apr 24, 2019)

@TheBruisedReed You left out something important - what does your wife think?

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

Edward said:


> @TheBruisedReed You left out something important - what does your wife think?


A most important thing indeed! At the start of our visits, she was very excited about the more contemporary style to be found at the PCA church. But, after visiting the ARP church, I believe she is leaning more in that direction. It was kind of awesome to hear her say, "I did not realize how much I love expository preaching, and how much I missed the creeds." (Super proud moment for me!)
Another thing to consider is that she tends to be a bit more introverted. We both believe that the smaller church would make it much easier for her to "plug-in", get to know people, and get involved in service.

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## TheBruisedReed (Apr 24, 2019)

NOT as a deaconess, if I may add. Lol

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## Edward (Apr 24, 2019)

I sympathize on the issue of contemporary worship, but I've been a member of a tiny church, a large church and a very large church. A tiny church is going to need most of its resources to survive. Large churches also soak up a lot of resources, but generally they are better positioned to impact the community and the world.

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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 25, 2019)

Which church is more faithful to the RPW? Which church could you do more service to? After all, being a servant is far more important than being served and made comfortable. Of course I’m ARP lol. God bless and keep you young man. Btw, most of the time you’re safer with people older in the faith. Not all the time but most of the time.

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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 25, 2019)

I'm obviously biased here but the Deaconess thing is an odd particular to focus on in consideration of all the other things noted about the ARP Church.

The ARP is headed in the exact opposite direction of the PCA on that issue, and the number of congregations with them is small, and getting smaller.

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## TylerRay (Apr 25, 2019)

It's been noted that your opportunities to serve are an important factor. Remember that one service you provide to the church is financial support. Does the pastor of either congregation have to work outside the ministry to put food on the table? Could your financial contributions help secure a full time ministry for the congregation and the area around it?

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## terry43 (Apr 26, 2019)

Hamalas said:


> I'm a lifelong member of the PCA.
> 
> Go ARP.


I agree ... I belong to a PCA that now sounds like the ARP...I suffered for years with "topical" preaching and watched the church become basically a non denominational congregation happy clappy ...thank God for a retirement and a session with the courage to return the church to its Reformation roots

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## terry43 (Apr 26, 2019)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I'm obviously biased here but the Deaconess thing is an odd particular to focus on in consideration of all the other things noted about the ARP Church.
> 
> The ARP is headed in the exact opposite direction of the PCA on that issue, and the number of congregations with them is small, and getting smaller.



Things got so bad at my PCA I sought out another reformed church.. in the most RC city in the US ... the only 2 were far.. one over an hour and the other 45 min away.. I ended up really liking the EPC Pastor.. They like the APC allowed each congregation to determine leadership "rules"

The church had bought out of the PCUSA and so leaned in that direction in leadership. At the time I attended they had an all male session but female deacons. They also held a joint Sunday school sometimes taught by a woman .

I had to make decision in leadership vs sound teaching. That Pastor was very reformed in his preaching and the SS confirmed the doctrine.

I was always uncomfortable with this but it was a relief to hear the scriptures expounded and actually have a pastor that had wonderful pastoral gifts . I never took out membership, and when the happy clappy pastor retired I returned to the PCA .

It is important to remember that as a member of the APC he will have input into decisions left to individual congregations

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