# Church Unions in the next 20 years?



## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 18, 2008)

I've heard rumors and discussions about these for the last couple of years. Which of these do you think may happen in the next 20 years, say better than a 1 in 3 likelihood?


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## Romans922 (Oct 18, 2008)

Is 'chance' a word we ought to use?

I voted for CRC and RCA AND PCUSA and UCC


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 18, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Is 'chance' a word we ought to use?



Good point. I'm updating "chance" to "likelihood", since chance doesn't really exist.


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## raekwon (Oct 18, 2008)

I really don't think that our Calvinist credentials are in jeopardy because we use the word "chance". 

I wouldn't be surprised to see some PCA churches that find the denomination too "liberal" joined to and received by the OPC, and others that find the denomination too "restrictive" joined to and received by the EPC or RCA. As far as wholesale church unions, I dunno. Maybe the UCC and the Unitarians?!


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## Pilgrim (Oct 18, 2008)

raekwon said:


> I really don't think that our Calvinist credentials are in jeopardy because we use the word "chance".
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see some PCA churches that find the denomination too "liberal" joined to and received by the OPC, and others that find the denomination too "restrictive" joined to and received by the EPC or RCA. As far as wholesale church unions, I dunno. Maybe the UCC and the Unitarians?!



I can see this happening as well, and some recent examples could be named that have done just that.


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## Grymir (Oct 18, 2008)

PCUSA and UCC 



We all know it will be with the Episcopal Church!


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 18, 2008)

Grymir said:


> PCUSA and UCC
> 
> 
> 
> We all know it will be with the Episcopal Church!



I always thought the PCUSA could join the UCC, and the United Church of Whatever (UCW) would joint THE Episcopal Church (TEC) to form "The Church" (TC), headed by its arch-moderator Lucky (what, shouldn't dogs be eligible for ordination?). In the union synod, Lucky will give a better sermon than anything the TEC, PCUSA, and UCC high leadership has given in years.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 18, 2008)

Personally I think a union of the "Continental" Reformed Traditions is more likely than those who hail from the British Isles. 

Though I did vote for a union maybe between RPCNA and ARP. Not a "full union" but I think relations between the two could be tightened in some manner.


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## yeutter (Oct 18, 2008)

As an outsider let me observe the Free Reformed Church and Heritage Reformed Congregations would seem to be a natural fit. But I am not Dutch so their may be good reasons why this suggestion is silly.


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## Guido's Brother (Oct 18, 2008)

I think CanRC and URC is likely, but it will be on the outside range of 20 years and possibly even more.


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## Scott1 (Oct 18, 2008)

As a CRC / RCA merger seems to be anticipated by voters here, can someone give background particularly on the RCA and why a merger would be likely?


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## N. Eshelman (Oct 18, 2008)

"ARP and RPCNA"

These two have been separate in the US since 1782- when the ARP was founded! I don't see it happening until the ARP gets back to its principles of biblical worship. I would love to see it. I love the brothers in the ARP. 

Remember that the last remaining AP congregations went into the RPCNA in the 1960s. So really there are already 2 ARP Churches.


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## FrielWatcher (Oct 18, 2008)

ELCA and whatever liberal body is going to buy them out to get their memberships up.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 18, 2008)

ABCUSA and Cooperative Baptists - 40-65%
ABCUSA and Alliance of Baptists - 30-45%

UCC and Americans United for Separation of Church and State - 100% (Hey, Barry Lynn is already UCC isn't he? Just like Bill Moyers).

_*Any*_ mainline denomination and ACORN - 100%

Grymir and the Karl Barth Society of North America - 0.000000001%


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## Grymir (Oct 18, 2008)

IT REALLY EXISTS!!! Karl Barth Society of North America is based in Princeton U. 

It's open to anyone, if you pay the $20 dues!!!

I'll never join! Not in 20yrs, not in 1,000 yrs, never. If they call me, I'll say I love my Scofield study bible!!!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 18, 2008)

I just bought you a "gift subscription" Timothy...


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## Grymir (Oct 18, 2008)

Of course, I'll do what the liberals do, Now that I'm a member of the Barth Group, I'll work my way to the top, and then subvert the whole thing from the inside!

 Sometimes, I amaze myself.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Oct 18, 2008)

Are you suggesting the sheep to be wolves among the wolves? Shocking! (and thought-provoking)


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 18, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> As a CRC / RCA merger seems to be anticipated by voters here, can someone give background particularly on the RCA and why a merger would be likely?



Scott,

There has been a lot of cooperation between the CRC and RCA in the last few years. There are a number of union congregations; they have the same liberal views on (mandatory) women in church office, "infallible but not inerrant" scripture, and embrace of ecumenicalism (e.g. the coming World Communion of Reformed Churches) and "modern evangelicalism." They have also worked together in a number of agencies. At least one book has been published discussing such a complete union.  There is also a CRC-written article entitled "The RCA - Our Closest Friend."

A lot of this sounds like talk from New York and Atlanta in the last 60s and early 70s, before the UPUSA and PCUS churches merged. What's old is new again...


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Oct 18, 2008)

FrielWatcher said:


> ELCA and whatever liberal body is going to buy them out to get their memberships up.



I could see the ELCA go in with the eventual PCUSA-UCC-TEC merger. Maybe throw in the "Disciples of Christ" for good measure. They can sing kumbaya and eat pudding together.


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## BertMulder (Oct 18, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> As a CRC / RCA merger seems to be anticipated by voters here, can someone give background particularly on the RCA and why a merger would be likely?



Would mirror what their mother churches in the Netherlands - The Hervormde Kerk and the Gereformeerde Kerk, have done in the process 'together on the way (samen op weg). The are now united, together with the Lutherans, as the PKN (Protestantse Kerk Nederland).


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## DMcFadden (Oct 18, 2008)

jtate732 said:


> FrielWatcher said:
> 
> 
> > ELCA and whatever liberal body is going to buy them out to get their memberships up.
> ...



As long as they drink fair trade organic coffee with it and prop their plates on their Green Letter Bibles it will be OK.


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## Ivan (Oct 18, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> ABCUSA and Cooperative Baptists - 40-65%
> ABCUSA and Alliance of Baptists - 30-45%



They can have them.


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## Ivan (Oct 18, 2008)

jtate732 said:


> I could see the ELCA go in with the eventual PCUSA-UCC-TEC merger. Maybe throw in the "Disciples of Christ" for good measure.



There is already some kind of agreement between these denominations. I believe the UMC is included also. I can't remember the name of their agreement but it's there...at least a number of years ago is was.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 19, 2008)

Ivan said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > ABCUSA and Cooperative Baptists - 40-65%
> ...



Which "they" can have which "them"??? 

Frankly, the Alliance has much in common with the more liberal ABC people and the Cooperatives have more in common with the more middle-of-the-road ABC folks. For the conservatives still in the ABC, the Cooperatives are a bit to the left of most conservatives but acceptable to most (mainly because most of them are more conservative than the far left of the ABC).


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## Dearly Bought (Oct 19, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Frankly, the Alliance has much in common with the more liberal ABC people and the Cooperatives have more in common with the more middle-of-the-road ABC folks. For the conservatives still in the ABC, the Cooperatives are a bit to the left of most conservatives but acceptable to most (mainly because most of them are more conservative than the far left of the ABC).



Although, it seems as though I'm increasingly seeing CBF churches and people to the left of what I thought was moderate in the ABC. And, of course, there are now many churches dually or even triply associated with all three. Here's one example.


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## Ivan (Oct 19, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Which "they" can have which "them"???



Either/or, both/and.


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## FrielWatcher (Oct 19, 2008)

What was really sad - when I lived in Rhode Island, I lived two blocks from the first Baptist church in America in Providence (notice the small 'f' in first). So I went there once. Awesome to visit - still authentic architecture except for that Sunday's fill-in pastor who was UCC!!

The place is vacant though - the late service had only about twenty people. Kind of a big let down. I guess that is what you get when Rhode Island is like 95% RC and they have this photo of the newest pastor. 







First Baptist Church in America


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## Grymir (Oct 19, 2008)

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> Are you suggesting the sheep to be wolves among the wolves? Shocking! (and thought-provoking)



Yes. Even a sheep armed with a colt 45 could beat a wolf!! So too could I, armed with my trusty KJV (Genuine Leather of course) beat a bunch of Barthians. This relates to the OP. One of the Barthians in my church is an ex-UCC pastor. He left the UCC because it was too liberal. And he's a liberal.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > DMcFadden said:
> ...



This is probably right. The Alliance of Baptists is made up largely of liberal churches that left the Southern Baptist Convention in the 80's.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 20, 2008)

FrielWatcher said:


> What was really sad - when I lived in Rhode Island, I lived two blocks from the first Baptist church in America in Providence (notice the small 'f' in first). So I went there once. Awesome to visit - still authentic architecture except for that Sunday's fill-in pastor who was UCC!!
> 
> The place is vacant though - the late service had only about twenty people. Kind of a big let down. I guess that is what you get when Rhode Island is like 95% RC and they have this photo of the newest pastor.
> 
> ...



I knew one of the former pastors of that church. She and I toured Puerto Rico together with a group of clergy in the 90s. Her attitude was strongly in favor of the Welcoming and Affirming position vis a vis homosexuality.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 20, 2008)

Dearly Bought said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, the Alliance has much in common with the more liberal ABC people and the Cooperatives have more in common with the more middle-of-the-road ABC folks. For the conservatives still in the ABC, the Cooperatives are a bit to the left of most conservatives but acceptable to most (mainly because most of them are more conservative than the far left of the ABC).
> ...



Bryan, that is what I was trying to say. Begin by placing the Alliance of Baptists at 9-10 on a "progressive" scale. The CBF would variously be at 5-9. The ABC ranges from about 3-10. So, CBF would be generally more progressive than the "conservatives" in the ABC and generally more conservative than the most liberal ABC folks.

Since the Alliance supports gay unions, they would be to the left of most American Baptists. The CBF is more progressive than the "average" ABC person, but generally less so than the crazies on the far left in the ABC or the Alliance of Baptists. But, ABC ethos strongly supports accepting "diversity" as normative. Therefore, many/most of the conservatives in the ABC would at least "tolerate" the heterodoxy/heresy of the CBF and even the Alliance as "acceptable" diversity within the "family."

The power of corporate culture is amazing. Within the ABC, tolerance has emerged as a highly prized value (since it has been linked quite successfully by the left with notions of historic Baptist "soul liberty"). I know of cases where highly positioned clergy broke up other marriages, and then married the person they were cheating with, only to continue successful "ministry" in the ABC. In at least a couple of these cases, the offending party went on to complete "ministry" to retirement and receive the accolades of the bureaucrats! Only in a group that confuses "soul liberty" with doctrinal and moral latitudinarianism (i.e., "anything goes") could such anomalies take place without hardly a blink of the eyes. I grant you that the moral case is the exception rather than the rule. However, it is the rule that doctrinal departures are frequently treated as acceptable diversity and sometimes moral ones as well.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 20, 2008)




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## Marrow Man (Oct 20, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> "ARP and RPCNA"
> These two have been separate in the US since 1782- when the ARP was founded! I don't see it happening until the ARP gets back to its principles of biblical worship. I would love to see it. I love the brothers in the ARP.



Actually, this has been kicked around in the last few years, according to reps from the RPCNA at our General Synod. As Benjamin alluded to, it would not be an actual "union" or "merger", per se, but more of a strengthening of the relationships. One of the suggestions a few years back was to have a joint Synod for both denominations, utilizing RPCNA principles of worship as the common ground for such an event. We even had an RPCNA pastor preach at General Synod a couple years ago, which I believe was intended to be a step in such a direction.

There apparently was a breakdown in this coming together, however. The hope is that perhaps it can be jump-started again. While I don't think the ARP will ever move back to EP and certainly never back to non-instrumental worship (once you let the genie out of the bottle, he ain't going back in, I'm afraid), I think some sort of a closer relationship would be beneficial to ARP worship practices, as you hint at. It would be healthy for the ARP to take some of its lead from the RPCNA in worship, rather than the current status quo, which largely seems to be a (gasp) PC(USA)/mainline influence.


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## N. Eshelman (Oct 20, 2008)

Marrow Man said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > "ARP and RPCNA"
> ...



Tim, 

I am all for a close working relationship between the two. We Seceeders need to stick together!  We had an ARP delegate preach at our synod this year and it was very nice to hear. I know that some of the men in the RP are working hard to rebuild those bonds. Historically, they have worked very closely but stayed only divided on the issue of political dissent... now there are more issues, of course. 

I really do hope to see closer working relationships- despite The Bible Songs!


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