# Presupp. & false religions



## nwink (May 7, 2011)

What winsome argument would a presuppositionalist use against the average unbeliever who asks, "Well how do you know your god and scriptures are the truth? Why do you believe what you believe?" (in terms of comparing Christianity with Islam, etc)

Obviously, I believe that Christianity is true because God has spoken and revealed Himself...because of the authority and truthfulness of God speaking in His revelation/scriptures. I believe that the faith we have that the Scriptures are the Word of God is a divine and infallible faith because our faith is based on what is divine and infallible.

So this has to be the basis, and that's what I'd start off saying...but then I don't know how I might giving something for the unbeliever to consider on the foundation that I'd just established. I don't know how I'd winsomely argue that Islam (with a transcendent god and scriptures) is a false religion presuppositionally.

Any help would be much appreciated.


----------



## au5t1n (May 7, 2011)

A presuppositionalist would want to prove that his own system is internally consistent and that other systems are internally inconsistent. With Islam, this can be done by showing contradictions in the Quran (they're everywhere, and it's a much shorter book than the Bible). In one chapter of the Quran, Christians and Jews are good guys and they'll get a reward if they just follow their own teachings. A few chapters later, none of them will be saved unless they're Muslims and follow Mohammed. Then later, they're fellow "People of the Book" and they'll get a reward. Don't kill them. Then again, kill them all. No, don't. Yes, do.

For Christianity, you might start with Isaiah 53 and show them how it prophesies Christ's suffering. Point out that even liberal scholars agree that Isaiah was written before Christ.


----------



## T.A.G. (May 7, 2011)

I can send you a pdf of a short primer on using presupp on world religion if you would like


----------



## kodos (May 7, 2011)

T.A.G. said:


> I can send you a pdf of a short primer on using presupp on world religion if you would like



I for one would love it!


----------



## Claudiu (May 7, 2011)

kodos said:


> T.A.G. said:
> 
> 
> > I can send you a pdf of a short primer on using presupp on world religion if you would like
> ...


 
Me too.


----------



## dudley (May 7, 2011)

austinww said:


> A presuppositionalist would want to prove that his own system is internally consistent and that other systems are internally inconsistent. With Islam, this can be done by showing contradictions in the Quran (they're everywhere, and it's a much shorter book than the Bible). In one chapter of the Quran, Christians and Jews are good guys and they'll get a reward if they just follow their own teachings. A few chapters later, none of them will be saved unless they're Muslims and follow Mohammed. Then later, they're fellow "People of the Book" and they'll get a reward. Don't kill them. Then again, kill them all. No, don't. Yes, do.
> 
> For Christianity, you might start with Isaiah 53 and show them how it prophesies Christ's suffering. Point out that even liberal scholars agree that Isaiah was written before Christ.



Austin I am again impressed with your insight and your scholarly and thelogical knowledge of all religions, including false religions. Everything you said is very accurate and it is one of the reasons also mad men like Osama Bin Laden can capture the mind and souls of so many individuals. It baffles my mind however how Muslims do not see the obvious contradictions in the Quran. It is so obvious to the average reader; are they so blinded with some type of hatred towards Christians and Jews that they can not see? False religions are in my mind the result of less intelectul and poorly educated minds who become captives of evil and demonic forces. I have said before that I had a 4th grade nun in catholic school answer a question posed to her by a fellow student. She was talking about knowing truth and staying away from the lies that exist in the world. He said: "Sister how do we know what is truth and what is a lie?" She paused for a moment and then said: "That is often very difficult, the devil is the master deciever, Satan will try to make the truth appear to be a lie and the lie appear to be the truth". I was nine years old and that was now 55 years ago and that statement has always stayed in my mind. I also know that the second Vatican council took away from my heart the arrogant dislike and even hatred catholics had been ingrained to think towards Protetstants and I think even visa versa. There was some good that did come from that council....the ecumenism promoted by that council opened my mind to think maybe the Protestant theologians might have some truth to expound and I want to listen. I know it was also one of the reasons I began to question Roman Catholicism which I had been drilled into believeing was the true faith of the apostles and the church establised and intended by Jesus Christ. It was that questioning that led me on a faith journey to examine the history of Christianity and explore all major Christian denominations to see what truth there was in their theology and thinking. As I studied the Protestant Reformation I began to discover a truth that the Romanists did not want me and others in their church to know; the truth I discoverd is that it was Rome and the papists that had departed from the truth and the true Gospel and church of the apostles and the church intended by Jesus Christ. I also began to realize that when an institution tries to not have you exposed to other ways of thinking and read and visit other churches and attend their services that they were trying to conceal and hide you from knowing something. "The truth", we know from scripture will set you free. I bagan to see the Romanists did not really want me to be free , they wanted to control my mind and my soul, I began to say to myself that is really evil. Evil and the devil attempt to control ;God and his Love for us sets us free to choose and God also extends his gift of grace to give us true faith if our minds are open to accepting his grace. It was in that study and enlightening of my mind I bagan to become a Protestant. Many other Roman catholics have since I think been affected in the same way and I think it is the reason there are now so many Roman catholics becoming Protestants. All the current press ,including reports in cathloic journals themselves is expouding on the current mass exodus of catholics from the Roman church and the flood of many of them, if evangelized properly as I was, into Protestantism, which is Gods amazing grace at work in the world today. 

I have expressed on this board many times that I believe we who have the true faith , Reformed Protestantism , are all Gods chosen children by grace and I believe he wants us at this time to lead others to the truth. I am not talking about who should evangelize and I hope this thread is not turnd in that direction.I am taking about simple christian witness not intelectualism or lack of intelectual thought ; I am talking about sharing the truth on a persaonl level with your neighbor. Let God be God from there , he will take over if we initaite the lead.

As much as I believe Roman catholics need to be evangelized , I alao think Muslims and even Jews need to be evangelized. With regard to Nathan's original question , concerning Muslims "Well how do you know your god and scriptures are the truth? Why do you believe what you believe?" (in terms of comparing Christianity with Islam, etc)"....I defer to exactly what you said Austin...."we can witness to our Muslim neighbors by becoming presuppositionalist's and prove that our theological system is internally consistent and that other systems are internally inconsistent" , even Islam, not by attacking them but by being aware of the Quran and its inconsistent teachings and addressing the question to them , so that maybe Gods grace can begin to enter their mind and soul and allow them to begin question... which like me and many others who did so will be led to the truth if we truly seek it......God will take over from there....I believe that wholeheartedly. I also commend Nathan for asking such a brilliant question and you Austin for anserring it so briliantly. God bless you both, your question Nathan and your answer Austin might inspire others and indirectly and lead others to the faith of the apostles and Reformed Protestantsim. God I believe was at work in you Nathan today and in you Austin and I also think in me in giving my response to you both. I often think God is guiding my hand as I write and I ask him to. I believe God is at work here on the PB as we exchange ideas with each other.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (May 7, 2011)

The Resurrection of Christ is a good place to show that Islam is wrong.

The Light of Nature reveals to men that they are in Covenant relationship to God. It reveals that they owe God worship and even that the world is under curse and men are in need of redemption. What it does not reveal is the method of redemption.

God has not left this to be a philosophical exercise as if we have to come up with the "killer argument" to cause men to reason as to the nature of that redemption. He revealed Himself fully and finally in Christ. The Gospel is a testimony of God's work. The testimony is not only true and verifiable but it changes men's hearts. Islam may cavil against the Resurrection and create a false account of the Resurrection but the fact of the matter is that Christ is raised.


----------



## nwink (May 7, 2011)

Dudley, what a wonderful testimony of God's grace in your life. Praise God! Thank you for sharing that!

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------




T.A.G. said:


> I can send you a pdf of a short primer on using presupp on world religion if you would like



Tyler, just sent you a message -- please send me that pdf of a short primer. Thanks!


----------



## MLCOPE2 (May 7, 2011)

Claudiu said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> > T.A.G. said:
> ...


 
Me three!!!


----------



## Covenant Joel (May 7, 2011)

Greg Bahnsen wrote a brief article on the subject:
Presuppositional Reasoning with False Faiths

I wrote a paper applying presuppositional methodology to Islam for a class with John Frame, at least in one particular context.


----------



## Peairtach (May 7, 2011)

Here is a short thread on the same subject

http://www.puritanboard.com/f49/presupppositional-apologetic-works-dealing-false-religions-65306/

There is a book by Mike Robinson which I can't vouch for, but which may at least be suggestive

One Way to God: Christian Philosophy and Presuppositional Apologetics Examine World Religions: Amazon.co.uk: Mike A Robinson: Books

This chap compares Sikhism and Christianity presuppositionally
A Comparison Between the Two Credos

Here is a list of books on vanTillian apologetics including one by Robinson on Mormonism
Amazon.com: Most Important Presuppositional Apologetic Books


----------



## dudley (May 7, 2011)

nwink said:


> Dudley, what a wonderful testimony of God's grace in your life. Praise God! Thank you for sharing that!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------
> 
> ...



Thank you Nathan for your kind reply to my post and yes I too say often , Praise God! I do think Austins advice is very good to follow and just questioning the Muslim on the cotradictions in the Quaran may cause them to think and then let God take over. We also reach more by example than by preaching...live the Gospel and the Good News is the best way to show Christs light in the world.


----------



## Philip (May 7, 2011)

dudley said:


> False religions are in my mind the result of less intelectul and poorly educated minds who become captives of evil and demonic forces.



Funny---I see them as the creations of highly intelligent self-deceivers.

The short answer to your question, Nathan, is what C.S. Lewis said:

"I believe in Christianity like I believe that the sun has risen: not simply because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."



nwink said:


> So this has to be the basis, and that's what I'd start off saying...but then I don't know how I might giving something for the unbeliever to consider on the foundation that I'd just established. I don't know how I'd winsomely argue that Islam (with a transcendent god and scriptures) is a false religion presuppositionally.



You can't: you can show the inconsistencies in Islam easily enough, but all you will end up with is an agnostic.



austinww said:


> For Christianity, you might start with Isaiah 53 and show them how it prophesies Christ's suffering. Point out that even liberal scholars agree that Isaiah was written before Christ.



And those liberal scholars would argue that Isaiah 53 was appropriated by the church, not the other way round. How you see the passage depends on your presuppositions.

All you can really do, Nathan, is present the arguments and evidence that you have---explain Christianity and its implications and [ray that the Holy Spirit would guide your words and open hearts. The best that a purely presuppositional method can do is to disprove---it cannot prove. The goal is to convince the unbeliever that a) he needs a new pair of perspectival glasses b) that the Christian glasses are the only ones that actually work. To put it in a slightly more cliched way, all you can do is lead the horse to water---you can't make him drink it.


----------

