# Shine, Jesus, Shine



## SRoper (Feb 7, 2007)

Why is it about "Shine, Jesus, Shine" that makes people point to it as an example of all that is wrong with contemporary worship? I have a few ideas, but I'd like to see what others say.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 7, 2007)

It's those four infuriating hand-claps in the midst of the chorus. I could bite through nails every time I hear it. Ugh!


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 7, 2007)

Frankly for me it's simple. I just absolutely LOATHE that song anyway. Singing it reminds me of a time when I was little and ate too much cotton candy.


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## Davidius (Feb 7, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> It's those four infuriating hand-claps in the midst of the chorus. I could bite through nails every time I hear it. Ugh!





MrMerlin777 said:


> Frankly for me it's simple. I just absolutely LOATHE that song anyway. Singing it reminds me of a time when I was little and ate too much cotton candy.



I don't understand how either of these show "what is wrong with contemporary worship music." It sounds more like an issue of preference.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 7, 2007)

True, a matter of preference. I find it distracting frankly. It takes my mind from worship of the Lord to how lousy I think the song is. Granted that is my own personal issue to deal with, but I'm probably not alone in this. If I am well I guess I'd just better "suck it up" and learn to deal with it.


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## CDM (Feb 7, 2007)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Frankly for me it's simple. I just absolutely LOATHE that song anyway. Singing it reminds me of a time when I was little and ate too much cotton candy.


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## bradofshaw (Feb 7, 2007)

While I personally think the tune is hokey, and the "shine," "blaze," and "flood" imagery is pretty sentimental, it is not without warrant as a Biblical metaphor for God's working. It's not that bad of a song. It's better than _Dare to Be a Daniel_.


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## Ivan (Feb 7, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Can anone post the lyrics?



Shine, Jesus, shine

(1) Lord, the light of your love is shining, in the midst of the darkness shining, Jesus, light of the world, shine up on us, set us free by the truth you now bring us, shine on me, shine on me.

Shine, Jesus, shine, fill this land with the Father`s glory, blaze, Spirit, blaze, set our hearts on fire. Flow, river, flow, flood the nations with grace and mercy, send forth your word, Lord, and let there be light.

(2) Lord, I come to your awesome presence, from the shadows into your radiance, by the blood I may enter your brightness, search me, try me, consume all my darkness, shine on me, shine on me.

Shine, Jesus, shine, fill this ...

(3) As we gaze on your kingly brightness, so our faces display your likeness. Ever changing from glory to glory, mirrored here may our lives tell your story, shine on me, shine on me.

Shine, Jesus, shine, fill this ...


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## elnwood (Feb 7, 2007)

I don't think there is anything theologically or biblically wrong with this song or using it in a worship service. I don't personally like it because it's just a little bit too peppy for me.

For me, it's up there with "I Can Sing of Your Love Forever" as songs I really don't like to play. That one is extremely repetitive (lyrically and musically) and is open to theological error as well.


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## Gryphonette (Feb 7, 2007)

Christ Chapel sings it, but without the hand claps. ;^)

It's not great theology or anything, and I'd just as soon CCBC give it a miss, but if it's sung in a straightforward, no happy-clappy way, it's not _ghastly_. 

Beats the heck out of those _Jesus-is-my-girlfriend_-type songs, at any rate.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 7, 2007)

John Rutter trashes “Shine, Jesus, Shine”


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 7, 2007)

*Psalm 36 *

To the chief Musician,​
_A Psalm_ of David, the servant of the Lord.​Psalm 36:5-10

5 Thy mercy, Lord, is in the heav'ns;
thy truth doth reach the clouds:
6 Thy justice is like mountains great;
thy judgments deep as floods:

Lord, thou preservest man and beast.
7 How precious is thy grace!
Therefore in shadow of thy wings
men's sons their trust shall place.

8 They with the fatness of thy house
shall be well satisfy'd;
From rivers of thy pleasures thou
wilt drink to them provide.

9 Because of life the fountain pure
remains alone with thee;
And in that purest light of thine
we clearly light shall see.

10 Thy loving-kindness unto them
continue that thee know;
And still on men upright in heart
thy righteousness bestow.

_Scottish Metrical Psalter_


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## Philip A (Feb 7, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> I don't understand how either of these show "what is wrong with contemporary worship music." It sounds more like an issue of preference.



That's _exactly_ what's wrong with contemporary worship music. It appeals to and plays upon the preferences and tastes of a particular demographic. Whenever the church as the church caters to a particular group (i.e., by playing the music that appeals to them), they by nature alienate all others. That's why you have churches that are 95% young married couples, and then another church that's all homeschooling families, and another that's a bunch of ex-hippies. And that's why in the church it should be _neither_ Jew nor Greek, _neither_ male nor female, _neither_ boomer nor buster, _neither_ single nor family. The church is not the place for anybody to get their personal tastes and preferences satisfied.


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## Ivan (Feb 7, 2007)

Philip A said:


> The church is not the place for anybody to get their personal tastes and preferences satisfied.



Are suggesting a "blended" music ministry?


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## Redaimie (Feb 7, 2007)

That brings back bad memories of loud drums & drama skits. I don't know about the words so much as the thought of singing it now makes me not want to


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## Philip A (Feb 7, 2007)

Ivan said:


> Are suggesting a "blended" music ministry?



Actually, no. I don't think blended worship is a solution at all; in some cases it just exacerbates the problem. What I am suggesting is taking preference and genre out of worship _altogether_; I am suggesting that our paradigm for considering music is all wrong from the get go.

Think of it like a movie score. Not the soundrack, with all the latest hits that in reality have nothing to do with the movie, but the score - the mood music, if you will. Evangelicals have bought into the idea that the feelings stirred up by listening to appealing music constitute being "worshipful"; I say, bosh, tosh, and poppycock. I am suggesting that the use of music in worship should be limited to expressing the mood of the lyric, in just the same way that a movie score sets the mood of the scene. Why do we get frightened when the victim of the movie is about to open that door? It's due in large part to the suspenseful music. Why do we get stirred up to action as the hero rides out to battle? It's because of the stirring, martial music. But would any of us listen to this movie score for pleasure, for fun? Likely not. The music communicates the mood of the scene, and I am saying that the music we use in worship should only communicate the mood of the words we are singing. Our problem is that we're evaluating worship music in a paradigm that doesn't give us the right categories. Our thinking in regards to music is tainted by the fact that we live in a culture where music is a consumer product that is developed, manufactured, and marketed to a particluar demographic or sub-culture based on personal identity and group identification. I am saying that "I don't like that song", or "I really like that song" are statements that shouldn't even compute, much less enter the conversation, when we are talking about music in worship.

In practice, I am saying we should throw out not just Contemporary Christian Music (a genre category that targets a particular subculture), but the revivalist hymns that operated on the same basis of appeal to taste and preference in earlier generations as well. So get rid of "Shine, Jesus, Shine" _and_ Fanny Crosby. Replace them with the psalter, or if you are OK with uninspired hymnody, use one of the old denominational hymnals, like the old CRC Psalter Hymnal, etc.

To put it in other terms, I am suggesting we need a two-kingdom view of music. "Worldly" music that we enjoy at home, in the car, or at work, and "sacred" music for worship that serves a specific, limited function, and operates according to an entirely different paradigm.


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## elnwood (Feb 7, 2007)

Philip A said:


> That's _exactly_ what's wrong with contemporary worship music. It appeals to and plays upon the preferences and tastes of a particular demographic. Whenever the church as the church caters to a particular group (i.e., by playing the music that appeals to them), they by nature alienate all others. That's why you have churches that are 95% young married couples, and then another church that's all homeschooling families, and another that's a bunch of ex-hippies. And that's why in the church it should be _neither_ Jew nor Greek, _neither_ male nor female, _neither_ boomer nor buster, _neither_ single nor family. The church is not the place for anybody to get their personal tastes and preferences satisfied.



Every musical type will appeal to a particular demographic. You can argue how exclusive Psalter, or old hymns, doesn't appeal to a particular demographic because it's more "biblical," but don't pretend that you're not attracting mostly people of European descent who dislike contemporary music in general and are less emotional and expressive in their worship.


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## SRoper (Feb 7, 2007)

One thing I had in mind was the structure "Shine, Jesus, shine...blaze, Spirit, blaze...Flow, river, flow..." So we have Jesus, Spirit, and...the river?


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## Archlute (Feb 7, 2007)

It really is a matter of musical setting. The church needs composers of the calibre of J.S. Bach again! If you study the statements that the words make in and of themselves, they are really not that bad at all. In fact, much of it is reminiscent of imagery found in the apostle John's writings. What uniformly irks all of us (including John Rutter) is that it sounds so lightweight, so cheesy, so _stupid_! The music does not match the lyrics.

Having obtained a B. Mus. in my undergrad years, I've long wanted to study and write modern hymnody for my congregation to use. I think that when I complete my theological studies and obtain a "settled" ministry (whatever _that_ means...), I'd like to get back into composition. Lord willing, He would even see fit to bless the churches with some usable new hymns (and for you EP folk who may not be thrilled with the idea of new hymns, you will at least have to admit that more than a few of the tunes used in the psalter could use replacing as well!).


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## Davidius (Feb 7, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> It was written;
> 
> _That's exactly what's wrong with contemporary worship music. It appeals to and plays upon the preferences and tastes of a particular demographic._
> 
> ...



This is insightful and true. I'm definitely not trying to hijack this thread but sometimes I'm absolutely bewildered when I listen to men who don't adhere to EP arguing about what is and isn't acceptable in worship music. It gets even worse when they start talking about what _type_ of music is acceptable (instruments, style, etc.) on top of the actual lyrics.


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## MICWARFIELD (Feb 7, 2007)

Hey Donald. Do you remember when we used to do that one at Grace Covenant back in 95? You seemed pretty in to it back then. Haha!


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 8, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Every musical type will appeal to a particular demographic. You can argue how exclusive Psalter, or old hymns, doesn't appeal to a particular demographic because it's more "biblical," but don't pretend that you're not attracting mostly people of European descent who dislike contemporary music in general and are less emotional and expressive in their worship.



Wrong...

I'm attracted to contemporary, pentacostal spirituals, bluegrass, classical, and "coffee shop" alternative. Though I would be attracted to contemporary and old hymns in church...that is why I enjoy the psalms...they focus me on God and His Word...rather than on myself, the music, and the emotions. And I'm memorizing scripture, as are my children.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 8, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Every musical type will appeal to a particular demographic. You can argue how exclusive Psalter, or old hymns, doesn't appeal to a particular demographic because it's more "biblical," but don't pretend that you're not attracting mostly people of European descent who dislike contemporary music in general and are less emotional and expressive in their worship.



In response to this assertion see here and see this post.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 8, 2007)

MICWARFIELD said:


> Hey Donald. Do you remember when we used to do that one at Grace Covenant back in 95? You seemed pretty in to it back then. Haha!



Yeah I guess I was back then. I had forgotten that Grace Covenant did that number. I believe it was 93-94 though. I was in Portsmouth VA by 95.


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## beej6 (Feb 8, 2007)

My objection to "Shine, Jesus, Shine" (never having sung it, only heard it) is that there are better Graham Kendrick songs to use in worship if one is so inclined to use hymns (e.g. "Meekness and Majesty").


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## Timothy William (Feb 8, 2007)

There are worse ones also - "Jesus put this song into my heart"

More than anything else, Shine Jesus Shine is simply childish, with a bad tune, and simple and repetitive, though not obviously heretical, lyrics.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 8, 2007)

Watching these responses I'm seeing that the consensus is that the song's message is not so bad, the tune is lite-pop and that it really suffers from guilt by association more than anything.

Personally, I've enjoyed singing the song but at this point I associate it with P & W bands that failed to check their egos at the narthex and think that spirituality equals repetition. The ones who infected our worship services sing this song a lot and so I don't care for it anymore.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 8, 2007)

Now Sean Higgins singing "Water" now that's inspiring. You can watch the video [video=youtube;7bpfSdH6tIo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bpfSdH6tIo[/video].


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## calgal (Feb 8, 2007)

A question: What is the purpose of the music? Is it to glorify the singers or to glorify God? And as long as no dramas or "fairies" aka liturgical dancers are involved, it does not bother me: we don't sing songs we don't like.


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