# Step right up folks and place your bets. Protestant Reformation on History Channel



## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Tonight on the worldly-evolutionary-secular History Channel, they are going to have a show on the Protestant Reformation. I'm taking a poll. How many times will they tell the real gospel? I've seen the commercial for the show and already have a gist for the show. Kinda like when Han Solo saw the Death Star and said "I've got a bad feeling about this"


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## JKLeoPCA (Mar 22, 2008)

I like the Star Wars illustration! Have to see if it turns out to be a small moon or a DeathStar!


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## Philip A (Mar 22, 2008)

They'll probably do about as good of a job representing Luther and Calvin as most evangelicals would....

Scratch that, they'll do better.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 22, 2008)

Not likely. The History Channel rarely, if ever gets it right. 

A few weeks ago, I was sitting in my library, the door slightly ajar, and I heard my 10 year old son saying "That's not right! That just dumb. You don't even know who Jesus is!" I went into the living room to see what he was watching.

There was some program on history channel attempting to discuss Christianity. It did my heart good to see that my boy has the discernment to know the truth from the historical religious fiction broadcast on these "worldy-evolutionary-secular" shows.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Wow Presbyterian Deacon, You must be so proud of your son!


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 22, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Wow Presbyterian Deacon, You must be so proud of your son!




Indeed. "Children are a heritage from the Lord." Psalm 127:3


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## CatechumenPatrick (Mar 22, 2008)

You need an "Other" category. Here is my other, for whatever it's worth:
0 - Because they think the Reformation's gospel was at heart a social and political upheaval, a reaction against authority, and the beginnings of a truly modern individualism, not justification by faith alone and the authority of Scripture alone. How many times will the Reformation creeds be mentioned? 0, I'm guessing.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 22, 2008)

0 - They will interpret the Reformation in sociological and economic categories, explaining the impact of humanism and technological advance.

Expect to hear the following:



> The outcome of the Black Death encouraged a radical reorganization of the economy, and eventually of European society. In the emerging urban centers, however, the calamities of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century, and the resultant labor shortages, provided a strong impetus for economic diversification and technological innovations. Following the Black Death, the initial loss of life due to famine, plague, and pestilence contributed to an intensification of capital accumulation in the urban areas, and thus a stimulus to trade, industry, and burgeoning urban growth in fields as diverse as banking (the Fugger banking family in Augsburg and the Medici family of Florence being the most prominent); textiles, armaments, especially stimulated by the Hundred Years' War, and mining of iron ore due, in large part, to the booming armaments industry. Accumulation of surplus, competitive overproduction, and heightened competition to maximize economic advantage, contributed to civil war, aggressive militarism, and thus to centralization. As a direct result of the move toward centralization, leaders like Louis XI of France (1461–1483), the "spider king", sought to remove all constitutional restrictions on the exercise of their authority. In England, France, and Spain the move toward centralization begun in the thirteenth century was carried to a successful conclusion.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Aw man, I can't edit the poll. I liked your idea's.


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## Philip A (Mar 22, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> 0 - They will interpret the Reformation in sociological and economic categories, explaining the impact of humanism and technological advance.



Because God would never use means, and _we_, of course, are so spiritual as to be above any kind of sociological, economic, philosophical, or technological influence in _our_ religious beliefs....


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Books, are you insulting books??


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## DMcFadden (Mar 22, 2008)

Philip A said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > 0 - They will interpret the Reformation in sociological and economic categories, explaining the impact of humanism and technological advance.
> ...



Yes, God has, does, and shall use means. But, turning the PROTESTANT Reformation in nothing more than the impact of technological advances and the economic impact of the Black Death is nuts.


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## Jim Johnston (Mar 22, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Not likely. The History Channel rarely, if ever gets it right.



I watched some of their programs on Jesus today. One interesting point was that they spoke of Jesus' parable about the watchtower by the vineyard and winepress (cf. Matt. 21:33, e.g.). They mentioned that many scholars took this to be a later invention added to the Gospels. This was because it was not thought that winepress businesses had watchtowers by them until much later. But, a team of archeologists uncovered the ruins of an early first centuty vineyard, complete with winepress factory, and it had a watchtower right next to it. They provided all the reasons for this.

Anyway, the moral of the story was that the History Cahnnel vindicated the Bible on this point. You have to give credit were credit is due. ( realize the word "rarely" was used, I just used the post for a spring board.)


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 22, 2008)

I plan to watch it, but not tonight. Maybe Monday afternoon--yes, I think I can fit it in then.

I have set my Direct TV reciever to record it. I won't be watching this evening as it is on from 10 PM to Midnight and I don't like to stay up late on Saturdays. The older I get, the more I find I need a good nights sleep in order to have a restful Sabbath.


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## SueS (Mar 22, 2008)

It's coming on in 20 minutes and we have a dvd in the recorder - hope springs eternal!! Chances are, we will probably get disgusted about 15 minutes into the program and pitch the dvd - sure am glad they've come down in price!


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## BJClark (Mar 22, 2008)

My husband was telling me about this...He's looking forward to watching it..


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## panta dokimazete (Mar 22, 2008)

just about on - 8 minutes!


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 22, 2008)

My son's watching the 10 Commandments, 
so I'll have to catch the recording on Monday!


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Yep, already God's love saves us. Also some kind of faith. Almost got close when they semi-quoted Romans.

Watching now. Should do a theologicaly correct simulcast on PB.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

At least they pronounced the city of worms correctly!


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Figures, ELCA Lutherans.


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## panta dokimazete (Mar 22, 2008)

here we go - "those lucky few that God chooses" - time to dis Calvinism


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

yup.


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## panta dokimazete (Mar 22, 2008)

Calvin - co-founder of capitalism?


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## panta dokimazete (Mar 22, 2008)

Well - I gotta go to bed to be fresh for early service tomorrow - ya'll tell me how the second half goes.

'night!


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## BJClark (Mar 22, 2008)

The Discovery Channel is showing "in the Footsteps of Jesus" now as well..


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## JKLeoPCA (Mar 22, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Calvin - co-founder of capitalism?



Yeah, that hit me wrong too. Success equals assurance of election, OUCH! 

I am also surprised about how predestination is such a hard problem for Calvinist to deal with, rather then in the same Biblical text where Luther began his ideas.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Well now, Jimmy Carter coined the term 'born-again'.  Might as well say that Al Gore didn't invent internet.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2008)

Metropolitan Church?? Makes Barth seem downright biblical.


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## Grymir (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, the show is over and the winner is....the gospel was never mentioned clearly.

No suprise there.

However, I was suprised that they told the truth about the stuff the Reformation spawned. Usually its the other way around.

Anyway, thanks y'all. The show was more boring than the hype.


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## D. Paul (Mar 23, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Yep, already God's love saves us. Also some kind of faith. Almost got close when they semi-quoted Romans.
> 
> Watching now. Should do a theologicaly correct simulcast on PB.



HEY! On that point, last week in a class at church, a man made a statement in brief passing. So brief, in fact, that it took me a few seconds to say to myself "What did he say?" But the leader had moved on so I couldn't clarify. Anyway, he said "God forgives us out of his love." Is this really a popular view? Don't most Christians recognize that God forgives out of his mercy? Or am *I* mistaken?


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## DMcFadden (Mar 23, 2008)

Definitely worth watching. That doesn't mean I agree with it all. The point of view is obvious from the selection of talking heads, including Anglican _El Jefe Maximo_, Rowan Williams; ELCA presiding bishop Mark Hanson; CC's Martin Marty; Francis Collins the human genome man, etc.

Calvinism is characterized as a "Harsh and uncompromising faith."

"God has chosen a lucky few who will be saved." As a result of this, those who are "elect" must live highly nurotic lives. "They yearned to find some way to know if they are part of the elect." This could be "terrifying because you cannot be sure that God has predestined you." How can one know that he is elect? "Success a sign of election," the Calvinists believed. Therefore, for the fearful communicant, success is virtually equivalent to salvation. The harder you work, the more successful you will become. The more successful you become, the more you can be sure that you are elect. This is all due to the “intense neurosis that you might get out of predestination.” Fortunately for America, such driven ideas led to keeping the engines of industry stoked with willing laborers eager to make their calling and election sure; hence our success.

They also draw connections from the Reformation to both the pro-slavery and anti-slavery movements in ante-bellum America. The Southern presbyterians have the better case "if" you are looking for teaching out of the Bible. But, the spirit of Luther also animates the abolitionists who argue that justice trumps narrow exegesis.

Jimmy Carter introduced secular Americans to the term "born again" (fair enough. That is why _Newsweek_ called 1976 the "year of the evangelical" because Carter taught us to say "born again" regardless of our background) But, the documentary uses that to lead to the rise of the religious right and to the emergence of gay ministries as an authentic expression of the Reformation Protestant principle.

Evangelical Francis Collins, leader of the human genome project famous for his BioLogos view of theistic evolution [(1) The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago, (2) Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life, (3) While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over very long periods of time, (4) Once evolution got under way no special supernatural intervention was required, (5) Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes, (6) But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature] makes his appearance to suggest that science and faith are complementary truths, not contradictory truths. He ruefully observes that 150 years after Darwin, about half of the American population believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.

The Protestant ministries to gays is highlighted as a particular example of the self-same Reformation principle. 

The documentary ends with the observation that Protestantism is about "Here I stand. I can do no other." The solitary individualism of the line epitomizes the Protestant idea.


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## Grymir (Mar 23, 2008)

D. Paul - Yes, that's usually a red flag. God forgives us on the basis of His sacrifice of His Son. He shows us His love and mercy through Jesus. 

Yes, It's a very popular view. God's love will save us. Not the sacrifice of His Son.


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