# How are women included in the old covenant under circumcision?



## BaptistCanuk (Sep 4, 2006)

Sorry. Forgot. I will let others comment. I'm not an expert. 

I do have to ask though, that if infant baptism replaces circumcision from the time of Abraham, then how were little girls included in the covenant?


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## Kaalvenist (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian, I didn't address the question of the replacement of circumcision by baptism in my post. If you would like to start another thread discussing that subject, feel free. But I'm still wanting somebody to examine/critique my post, without the thread getting hijacked by any and every question related to infant baptism.


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## BaptistCanuk (Sep 4, 2006)

If you can't answer my questions, then I will oblige. I won't answer yours.


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## Kaalvenist (Sep 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> If you can't answer my questions, then I will oblige. I won't answer yours.


Please understand me, Brian. Your question is an easy one. However, I am trying to examine a different point of the debate of infant baptism than the one you are raising. If you begin a different thread to specifically discuss the relation of circumcision to females, I will be more than happy to answer you. But please do not divert this thread from the points I am trying to discuss; and please do not assume that I can't answer your questions.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian,

Circumcision was a type and shadow (Hebrews uses these categories). By definition a type and shadow is imperfect and an imperfect indicator of things to come.

One of the imperfections of the type and shadow circumcision is that, by its nature, was restricted to males.

When the promised seed - who is Christ (Gal 3) came - the type and shadow was fulfilled. In his death he was "circumcised," (metaphorically) for his people. 

Hence, the pattern of covenant initiation (having been instituted under Abraham, not Moses) continues but its _administration_ changes. Now, the sign and seal of the (new - relative to Moses) covenant of grace, by its nature, includes males and females. 

So, there is continuity of substance: "I will be your God and your children's God;" and discontinuity of administration: both sexes are now initiated at birth.

rsc



> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> Sorry. Forgot. I will let others comment. I'm not an expert.
> 
> I do have to ask though, that if infant baptism replaces circumcision from the time of Abraham, then how were little girls included in the covenant?


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## Greg (Sep 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> Brian,
> 
> Circumcision was a type and shadow (Hebrews uses these categories). By definition a type and shadow is imperfect and an imperfect indicator of things to come.
> ...



Thanks Dr. Clark. Dr. McMahon also answered this same question a while back. I just can't find that thread for the life of me.

He brought up the point about a girl being covered under the federal headship of her father who bears the covenant sign. If someone else remembers that post, please post a link to it. He explains it much better than I can.


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## BaptistCanuk (Sep 4, 2006)

Thank you for the explanation Dr. Clark.

Sean, I had a feeling you could answer my question. I was being sarcastic. That said, I don't see a problem with a thread going in different directions. It is a natural result of human communication. We are not writing a doctoral thesis here, we are interacting. Ergo, I asked you a question that was relevant in my opinion. 

Likewise, nobody on here better assume that I don't know anything. Just because I don't agree on the things that are irrelevant and am not a "yes" man, does not mean I do not know anything.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 4, 2006)

Yes, the principle of male representation in the covenant community was a part of the Mosaic system as well. It passed away with the whole Mosaic system.

rsc



> ...a girl being covered under the federal headship of her father who bears the covenant sign.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Greg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> ...



Since woman can't be literally circumcised, the seed passing through the federal headship of the father is their circumcision.


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## Kaalvenist (Sep 6, 2006)

Brian,

I'm figuring (hoping) that you will read this thread. I would like to apologize to you for my comments in the thread which was just recently closed down. I'm currently driving (slowly) from Fort Carson, CO, to Fort Benning, GA, getting on the Internet when I can. I found myself angry at your responses, because I felt that you weren't treating the subject carefully enough; but that is no excuse for my remarks to you. Please forgive me for the lack of charity in my responses. I hope that, in the future, a more amicable discussion on the subject can be continued.

[Edited on 9-6-2006 by Kaalvenist]


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## Founded on the Rock (Sep 6, 2006)

If in the old covenant women received the sign from their fathers what would happen in this situation:

A woman like Rahab repents and trusts in the LORD. Where does she receive her covenant sign? (My mind goes to 1 Corinthians and the discussion about how one Christian woman sanctifies her children if the father is not a believer.) Was she exempt from the covenant sign?


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 6, 2006)

This is part of the intended imperfection of the broader economy of types and shadows and the Mosaic economy/covenant particularly and it also signals the distinction between the Abrahamic covenant/covenant of grace and Moses. They intersect but they are not identical. As a believer, she was a member of the covenant of grace and a beneficiary of the covenant of grace, even though not a recipient of the sign/seal of initiation. In the New Covenant, there is a proper sign/seal for her lot and for her household (see Lydia!).

rsc



> _Originally posted by Founded on the Rock_
> If in the old covenant women received the sign from their fathers what would happen in this situation:
> 
> A woman like Rahab repents and trusts in the LORD. Where does she receive her covenant sign? (My mind goes to 1 Corinthians and the discussion about how one Christian woman sanctifies her children if the father is not a believer.) Was she exempt from the covenant sign?



[Edited on 9-6-2006 by R. Scott Clark]


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