# Separatism...can it be justified



## bfrank (Sep 14, 2006)

I just got off of the phone with a guy I used to fellowship with. Haven't spoken to him in several years. As I have become more reformed in my theology he has taken a different path. Here are a few of the issues.

-KJV only
-plain dresses for the wife and female children
-will not fellowship in organized church because of the worldly influences...immodesty in youth groups, youth groups period. Likens every church service to a shallow, irreverent, unedifying time.
-100% homeschool, no exceptions
-any popular pastor held in contempt, whether it was Jonathan Edwards or John MacArthur
-Stated that the Lord has stripped away pretty much all of their believing friends

I'm sure there are other glaring things but I can't think of them right now.

Look I realize the Church is in decline, and I can see some validity in some of his concerns but does the true Church stand and fight against the culture or does it run and hide away???

Thoughts...opinions...


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## satz (Sep 14, 2006)

Interesting question, I hope some people will share their opinions!


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 14, 2006)

I am not a pastor or anything but here is my short two cents.

Throughout history in every movement there will be those who want to liberalise, 'progress' and make change. In the same way there will always be those who refuse to change. What can make the matter worse is not when people refuse to change, but rather when they turn to extremism. Extremism here can be seen as a sort of knee-jerk reaction to liberalism.

I hope that idea makes sense. I know there is a lot more to say on this but as soon as I start labeling some things 'extreme' and others not that is when I start to get onto shaky ground. You could argue that there are many beliefs that are 'extreme' which are perfectly biblically valid. I am not dealing with these. I am thinking of those extreme beliefs that people sometimes adopt to counter change.


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## Augusta (Sep 14, 2006)

I might ask your friend if he is being "salt and light." It sounds like he is just being salt. We are called to love God AND love our neighbor. What denomination does he come out of?


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 14, 2006)

For some material arguing against separatistic thinking see 
Samuel Rutherford Against Separatism and other articles list in the left sidebar at:
http://www.naphtali.com/separa1.htm


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## gwine (Sep 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> I might ask your friend if he is being "salt and light." It sounds like he is just being salt. We are called to love God AND love our neighbor. What denomination does he come out of?



One would question if he is even salt.

(Mat 5:13) "You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

From JFB:

Mat 5:13 - 
Mat_5:13-16. We have here the practical application of the foregoing principles to those disciples who sat listening to them, and to their successors in all time. Our Lord, though He began by pronouncing certain characters to be blessed - without express reference to any of His hearers - does not close the beatitudes without intimating that such characters were in existence, and that already they were before Him. Accordingly, from characters He comes to persons possessing them, saying, "œBlessed are ye when men shall revile you," etc. (Mat_5:11). And now, continuing this mode of direct personal address, He startles those humble, unknown men by pronouncing them the exalted benefactors of their whole species.

*Ye are the salt of the earth "” to preserve it from corruption, to season its insipidity, to freshen and sweeten it. The value of salt for these purposes is abundantly referred to by classical writers as well as in Scripture; and hence its symbolical significance in the religious offerings as well of those without as of those within the pale of revealed religion.* In Scripture, mankind, under the unrestrained workings of their own evil nature, are represented as entirely corrupt. Thus, before the flood (Gen_6:11, Gen_6:12); after the flood (Gen_8:21); in the days of David (Psa_14:2, Psa_14:3); in the days of Isaiah (Isa_1:5, Isa_1:6); and in the days of Paul (Eph_2:1-3; see also Job_14:4; Job_15:15, Job_15:16; Joh_3:6; compared with Rom_8:8; Tit_3:2, Tit_3:3). *The remedy for this, says our Lord here, is the active presence of His disciples among their fellows. The character and principles of Christians, brought into close contact with it, are designed to arrest the festering corruption of humanity and season its insipidity. But how, it may be asked, are Christians to do this office for their fellow men, if their righteousness only exasperate them, and recoil, in every form of persecution, upon themselves?* The answer is: That is but the first and partial effect of their Christianity upon the world: though the great proportion would dislike and reject the truth, a small but noble band would receive and hold it fast; and in the struggle that would ensue, one and another even of the opposing party would come over to His ranks, and at length the Gospel would carry all before it.

but if the salt have lost his savour "” "œbecome unsavory" or "œinsipid"; losing its saline or salting property. The meaning is: If that Christianity on which the health of the world depends, does in any age, region, or individual, exist only in name, or if it contain not those saving elements for want of which the world languishes,

wherewith shall it be salted? "” How shall the salting qualities be restored to it? (Compare Mar_9:50). Whether salt ever does lose its saline property - about which there is a difference of opinion - is a question of no moment here. The point of the case lies in the supposition - that if it should lose it, the consequence would be as here described. So with Christians. The question is not: Can, or do, the saints ever totally lose that grace which makes them a blessing to their fellow men? But, What is to be the issue of that Christianity which is found wanting in those elements which can alone stay the corruption and season the tastelessness of an all-pervading carnality? The restoration or non-restoration of grace, or true living Christianity, to those who have lost it, has, in our judgment, nothing at all to do here. The question is not, If a man lose his grace, how shall that grace be restored to him? but, Since living Christianity is the only "œsalt of the earth," if men lose that, what else can supply its place? What follows is the appalling answer to this question.

it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out "” a figurative expression of indignant exclusion from the kingdom of God (compare Mat_8:12; Mat_22:13; Joh_6:37; Joh_9:34).

and to be trodden under foot of men "” expressive of contempt and scorn. It is not the mere want of a certain character, but the want of it in those whose profession and appearance were fitted to beget expectation of finding it.


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## beej6 (Sep 14, 2006)

bfrank,

Tell your friend to stop listening to Family Radio.


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## BobVigneault (Sep 14, 2006)

The scriptures never say that we are to create a virtual cloister about us, a bubble that keeps out all risk. We have our creeds, confessons and catechisms, our devotion to purity in worship and our desire for orthodoxy. These distintives are used as boundary lines for our community of faith but they are not supposed to be gateless walls of intollerance.

The scriptures do tell us that we are to examine ourselves, walk circumspectly, consider, reckon, respond in a manner worthy of the gospel. These are all exhortations that take into effect that sanctification is dynamic for the Word is living. This is why we cry, 'semper reformanda'. God transforms us by renewing our minds and we do indeed cast off the patterns of this world but until we die this dynamic process never stops.

Separatists assume that God is finished with their sanctification. God has taught them everything they need to know. The Holy Spirit is done. They may now shut out 'Jerusalem, Samaria and all the world' and wait for Jesus to return and destroy everyone else. This is the danger of self-righteousness. Compare the sepratist prayer, "I thank you God that I am not like that tax collector over there" to this prayer from The Valley of Vision -

"My God, I feel it is heaven to please Thee, and to be what Thou wouldst have me be. O that I were holy as Thou art holy, pure as Christ is pure, perfect as Thy Spirit is perfect! These, I feel, are the best commands in Thy Book, and shall I break them? must I break them? am I under such a necessity as long as I live here?

Woe, woe is me that I am a sinner, that I grieve this blessed God, who is infinite in goodness and grace! O if He would punish me for my sins, it would not would my heart so deep to offend Him; But though I sin continually, He continually repeats His kindness to me.

At times I feel I could bear any suffering, but how can I dishonour this glorious God? What shall I do to glorify and worship this best of beings? O that I could consecrate my soul and body to His service, without restraint, for ever! O that I could give myself up to Him, so as never more to attempt to be my own! or have any will or affections that are not perfectly conformed to His will and His love! But, alas, I cannot live and not sin.

O may angels glorify Him incessantly, and, if possible, prostrate themselves lower before the blessed King of heaven! I long to bear a part with them in ceaseless praise; but when I have done all I can to eternity I shall not be able to offer more than a small fraction of the homage that the glorious God deserves. Give me a heart full of divine, heavenly love."


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 14, 2006)

Separatism can be done in two different ways...

The main verse is where we are called out to be separate.

One way is a means of isolation. A running away, if you will. The pharisaical, "we cannot touch an unholy thing". This leads to ungraciousness, legalism, and constant negative criticism of peers because there is no room for growth or movement. Thus limiting the ppl they contact with down to nil as there will always be three differing opinions between two ppl. It is an unbalanced knee-jerk reaction as it does not permit for even future contact. It is also unscriptural as it takes the one chapter and verse out of sync with the other verses of being in the world (but not of it) and being salt and light.

The other view of separatism is that of the verse being IN sync with the two other previous mentioned verses. We are called to be parculiar ppl...meaning that our behaviour is to be different. If society starts behaving badly, we should not. We should be constant throughout the various parts of our lives and not bring condemnation upon ourselves from others...unless they are merely condemning that which is good. We cannot run away, we need to be gracious...but we do not reach the world through their methods.

The salt has lost it's flavour phrase is more a matter of not having our flavour washed away by becoming like the world. The salt of biblical era is different than the pure sodium chloride of today. If you wash salt today with water, you have nothing left. If back then you washed salt with water (water being the world's influence) then what you would have left is bits of sand (thus that which is flavourless and only good for walking on). We do have to set guidelines/standards for ourselves (biblically based, of course). But these are just that...standards and guidelines...not a detailed checklist. There is a difference between saying, "don't cross this line, but work within these bounds" (we do this with our speech and what we drink) and saying, "The dress must be 9in off the floor, the print can be no bigger than a quarter, and the covering must be this material, made from this pattern, and can only have this number of pleats...oh, and don't forget to wear your belt on Sundays". The guidelines ARE in scripture, though I know we like to argue about them. I do believe there is room for the ministry to draw a line for families to work within...and there is room for the husbands/fathers to draw a line for their families to work within. It's not really all that stiffling...and it doesn't have to be reactionary as your friend is. It should also NEVER be held to an unbeliever...but rather, we should be seen as light to them....and as ENCOURAGEMENT to eachother. Saying, "you're not as good a Christian as I am and thus I can have no part of you" is of no benefit. I'm sure the person he has rejected is possibly furthur along in another area than he is. I have found this true of most comparisons...and thus the iron sharpening iron.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Separatists assume that God is finished with their sanctification. God has taught them everything they need to know. The Holy Spirit is done. They may now shut out 'Jerusalem, Samaria and all the world' and wait for Jesus to return and destroy everyone else. This is the danger of self-righteousness. Compare the sepratist prayer, "I thank you God that I am not like that tax collector over there" to this prayer from The Valley of Vision -


 This is so true. From having been in a separatist community...we were told that there is no more to keep seeking from God and His Scriptures...but rather we "need" to come to a "place of rest". This is why most anabaptists don't read the scriptures. They have their checklist...they don't think they need anything else.


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## jaybird0827 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Psalm 87*

_A Psalm or Song for the sons of Korah. _

1 His foundation is in the holy mountains. 
2 * The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. * 
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah. 
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. 
5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: *and the highest himself shall establish her*. 
6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah. 
7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.


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## jaybird0827 (Sep 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by beej6_
> bfrank,
> 
> Tell your friend to stop listening to Family Radio.



Is that an example of "association by guilt?"


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## blhowes (Sep 14, 2006)

I think one of the challenges of living as a Christian is to take the truths in the Bible and apply them in our lives in a way that avoids the 'extremes' that God never intended. On the one hand, I agree that as Christians we shouldn't live totally separated from the world, with our necks in the sand, so to speak. On the other hand, we don't want to live at the other extreme either.

I come from a background that stressed separation from the world and ecclesiastical separation. Two verses often used are:

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 

I think biblical separation is good...when we separate from what God wants us to separate from, in the way that he wants us to separate from it. How do we separate, but find the balance that Jesus spoke of?

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[Edited on 9-14-2006 by blhowes]


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
> [Edited on 9-14-2006 by blhowes]


Yes, this is one of the classic places used by separatists. Here is a article link that discusses this verse and others used to defend Separatistic views.
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/visible3.htm


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## blhowes (Sep 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Yes, this is one of the classic places used by separatists. Here is a article link that discusses this verse and others used to defend Separatistic views.
> http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/visible3.htm


Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading it.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 14, 2006)

It was to address this very spirit, the spirit of the anabaptist radicals, that BC 29 was written.

All true Christians must join themselves to a true church. He may be a Christian, but if he will not unite himself to a true church, he has no right to expect us to regard him as a Christian.

Frankly, some of what you list here suggests that he's involved in some sort of cult/sect. 

In my experience (anecdotal evidence) folk who take such a path are in search of illegitimate religious certainty. KJV only is a dead give away. "If it was good enough for Paul..." The rejection of the visible church -- "they all corrupt!" True enough, I say, "Come on in, you'll fit right in."

Why? Motives vary. Sometimes a personal shock of some sort or sometimes there is a darker explanation. Self-righteousness is often lurking nearby.

rsc



> _Originally posted by bfrank_
> I just got off of the phone with a guy I used to fellowship with. Haven't spoken to him in several years. As I have become more reformed in my theology he has taken a different path. Here are a few of the issues.
> 
> -KJV only
> ...


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## bfrank (Sep 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> I might ask your friend if he is being "salt and light." It sounds like he is just being salt. We are called to love God AND love our neighbor. What denomination does he come out of?




As far as I know, he comes from a southern baptist tradition. He began sitting under a guy named http://www.floydnolenjones.org during the 90s. From that he was introduced to Michael Pearl and has basically fallen into the anabaptist tradition.

As far as Floyd Jones is concerned I haven't heard him teach as of late. He preaches with authority and that is something that attracted my friend. Michael Pearl on the other hand has a decent book out called To Train Up a Child, I'm sure alot of you have heard of it. That being said I differ with Michael Pearl in his approach and doctrine.

The problem I see with the people that come out of this camp is that they elevate the family above the church and may even make it an idol in many cases. And as has been stated, believe in "sinless perfection".

It's sad really...I used to have a lot of fun with this guy but his legalism has become a nightmare. If I even start speaking of the Church or doctrine or anything related to Reformed Christianity he immediately becomes defensive and starts throwing out ridiculous emotional arguments.

Anyway, I was curious as to what people thought and if they've encountered these types of believers. I agree with an above post...it is basically a cult/sect and there are many biblical arguments against it.

[Edited on 9-15-2006 by bfrank]


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