# Helping with singing when your elders have different convictions.



## Qoheleth (Sep 14, 2017)

Now, my church's congregational singing isn't the worst, but they do use instruments (which I am opposed to for both theological and practical reasons,) and either sing somewhat shallow contemporary songs or ruin old hymns with contemporary music. My pastor obviously thinks we have liberty in the matter.
When we met up a couple weeks ago, he seemed a bit dissatisfied with how that was going and told me that the musicians now were a group of volunteers, not exactly a committed worship band. I'm musically talented and want to help them move more towards using a hymnal, and ESPECIALLY singing more Psalms. If I did that, however, I know they would use musical instruments in singing them. Would it be wrong for me to help them make it better, even when I know they'll do this? Should I bear with those weaknesses for the sake of possibly promoting more reverent worship?


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Sep 14, 2017)

This is what I do. We are very reverent but our pastor desires an instrument. So I play the guitar. It seems to help I suppose.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 14, 2017)

In my experience, unless they ask u for your input, specifically on the subject, I would refrain from recommending anything. I have done this in the past, tactfully and gracefully, specifically in regards to including wine in the supper, the confessional standards in singing at least one Psalm on the Lord's day and the use of large classical bands, based on the entertainment propensity and it was not received well, especially after I made a biblical response. The sad thing is that most elders are not attuned to these things and see them as secondary issues. Most are normative in their approach to worship.


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## Held Fast (Sep 15, 2017)

If you follow elder rule, I would only volunteer your musical talents if you are willing to submit to vision the elders have for worship.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TylerRay (Sep 15, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> Now, my church's congregational singing isn't the worst, but they do use instruments (which I am opposed to for both theological and practical reasons,) and either sing somewhat shallow contemporary songs or ruin old hymns with contemporary music. My pastor obviously thinks we have liberty in the matter.
> When we met up a couple weeks ago, he seemed a bit dissatisfied with how that was going and told me that the musicians now were a group of volunteers, not exactly a committed worship band. I'm musically talented and want to help them move more towards using a hymnal, and ESPECIALLY singing more Psalms. If I did that, however, I know they would use musical instruments in singing them. Would it be wrong for me to help them make it better, even when I know they'll do this? Should I bear with those weaknesses for the sake of possibly promoting more reverent worship?


If you have convictions against using instruments in worship, then don't volunteer to use them.

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## Scott Bushey (Sep 15, 2017)

I agree w/ Tyler. "If you can't beat em, join em" would be problematic as you then advocate and compound the issue. If you are regulative in your worship, it would be going against conscience.


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## Parakaleo (Sep 15, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> If you have convictions against using instruments in worship, then don't volunteer to use them.



Precisely. Romans 3:8 comes to mind.

_And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just._

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Jack K (Sep 15, 2017)

It depends on what you believe about musical instruments and songs that don't come from the Psalms.

- If you believe using these things in worship is inherently sinful, you should not participate in or help facilitate a practice your conscience says is sin. The fact that you might be able to lessen the sin does not mean you may participate in sin. Follow your conscience.

- If you believe using these things in worship is unwise and not the best way to follow Scripture, but that the leadership of the church is vested with the authority to make that determination and your duty is to follow their lead, then you may support the leadership even though you would do things differently were you in charge. You are not violating your conscience. You will have to be careful, though, to have a humble attitude rather than a grumpy one.

In my case, I disagree with my church on a fairly substantial doctrinal issue (children's baptism) and on some of their philosophy of ministry (I wish they would do more to encourage children's attendance at the worship services). Yet I believe the elders, rather than I, have the authority to rule on such matters in that church. And I find ways to respectfully serve in this church's ministry to children without teaching anything I believe is untrue or advocating any sin: you will never find me saying infant baptism is wrong, and I often tell parents that if they're going to pick between putting kids in my class or taking them to one of our services I think they should choose a service.

Now, I could get all hardliner-y and refuse to give any support to the children's ministry until it lines up much better with the way I would do things. But I see the New Testament in particular being more concerned with a lay-person's non-grumpy submission to leadership than it is with telling that lay-person to take a stand and insist everything be done right. There's a place for both, of course, but no church will thrive without some measure of submission. If you can (1) give helpful service (2) with a good attitude and (3) without feeling you've participated in sin, it might be good to say yes. If not, decline graciously.

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## Qoheleth (Sep 15, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> If you have convictions against using instruments in worship, then don't volunteer to use them.


I wasn't talking about volunteering to use them. I was saying I didn't want to help them learn a song that they will use instruments for. I wouldn't actively be participating with instruments, I would be teaching them how to sing certain songs, but I'm trying to decide if it would still be participation in the practice even though I didn't teach them on instruments.


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## Parakaleo (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> I'm trying to decide if it would still be participation in the practice even though I didn't teach them on instruments.



I think yes.

I'm thinking about that dreadful scene of the three men at Redeemer PCA in New York City dancing as an offering of worship during a communion service. We would all agree this is a flagrant violation of the RPW. If you were a professional dance instructor and someone in the church asked if you could help improve things for the next time they did a dance offering by lending your expertise and helping them get crisper movements or whatever... I think the obvious answer would be, "No, I can't support lawbreaking in any way."

I wouldn't help dancers improve their dancing if I knew it was to be for worship. I wouldn't help my neighbor improve his marksmanship if I knew he was going to kill someone. I wouldn't help a woman improve her rhetoric and oratory skills if I knew she thought herself a "pastor".


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## Ed Walsh (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> Would it be wrong for me to help them make it better, even when I know they'll do this?



I know others disagree, but I think in our day that _better_ is always _better_. That is often the best we can do. Singing, "_Lord, from the depths to the I cried, My voice do thou hear,_" even with instruments is a lot better than, "_I surrender all._"


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## TylerRay (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> I wasn't talking about volunteering to use them. I was saying I didn't want to help them learn a song that they will use instruments for. I wouldn't actively be participating with instruments, I would be teaching them how to sing certain songs, but I'm trying to decide if it would still be participation in the practice even though I didn't teach them on instruments.


I'm sorry, brother; I misunderstood you. I'm still not understanding exactly what you're talking about, though. Are you planning on giving vocal lessons to the band leader? Or do you simply want to introduce new songs to them? Do you want to be a coach for the band?


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 16, 2017)

Ed,
What do you mean by, 'better than, I surrender all'?


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 16, 2017)

My church uses a piano for accompaniment and to fill the quiet during the offering (which is why I say get rid of the offering out will go the offertory*). When a psalm is sung I sing it as I can't help what others have seen fit to put along with it, which is what I told the session would be my practice when I transferred my membership. Years later when the evening service was re-instituted, the practice has been to sing 2 psalms without accompaniment making use of the outline in the Westminster directory. A year ago to better bring the full psalter to use in both services (albeit along with the Trinity hymnal in the AM), the elders approved a plan to buy, then later switched to produce a psalter for the church. I was asked to help with not only the production at the end of the editorial work, but to look at the selections during editing, which led to ditching or revising the 1912 Psalter selections and to tightening up the translations. All that to say, while we need to be circumspect w.r.t. conscience we should not cultivate an over scrupulous one that rules out any avenue of helping out one's church to reform and improve. That willingness itself my foster, lead to or occasion reform. So, generally speaking, as I'm still not clear on this specific instance proposed in the OP, one can't help the fact a church may use musical instruments; but if you are in a position to do so and can teach them to sing better and introduce psalms and testify to a more reformed practice generally, why not? It may bear fruit some way or it may not. But there certainly will be no possibility of it if one does nothing. That again, generally speaking. 
*They used to do this during the Lord's supper but I privately noted to the pastor that this even violates the PCA's meager directory and said no more; later they dropped the practice.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1


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## Ed Walsh (Sep 16, 2017)

Scott Bushey said:


> What do you mean by, 'better than, I surrender all'?



Hi Scott,

Maybe it's just me, but surrendering all to Jesus is something that has eluded me these past 44 years. That's one of those hymns that I can't sing without editing the words to something like, _I want to_ surrender all, _please help me to_ surrender more, etc.

All to Jesus I surrender,
Humbly at His feet I bow;
Worldly pleasures all forsaken,
Take me, Jesus, take me now.

I try and pray daily to do like the verses above state. But then my heart checks me for some sin or shortfall or another, and I just can't sing it in all sincerity.

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## Qoheleth (Sep 16, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> I'm sorry, brother; I misunderstood you. I'm still not understanding exactly what you're talking about, though. Are you planning on giving vocal lessons to the band leader? Or do you simply want to introduce new songs to them? Do you want to be a coach for the band?



No vocal lessons or coaching (if by coaching, you mean being a sort of mentor to the band, I myself have very little experience with being in worship bands.) I would simply like to suggest to the band and the elders that we start introducing more hymns and Psalms in particular, and to help them select a tune or in any other way I can in achieving that goal if they take. Even using a hymnal would be a great improvement (I don't believe we should use instruments, but presently I'm not EP/only Scripture.)
And so, with this desire in mind, would it be sinful to help them do this when I know they won't abandon the instruments?


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## TylerRay (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> No vocal lessons or coaching (if by coaching, you mean being a sort of mentor to the band, I myself have very little experience with being in worship bands.) I would simply like to suggest to the band and the elders that we start introducing more hymns and Psalms in particular, and to help them select a tune or in any other way I can in achieving that goal if they take. Even using a hymnal would be a great improvement (I don't believe we should use instruments, but presently I'm not EP/only Scripture.)
> And so, with this desire in mind, would it be sinful to help them do this when I know they won't abandon the instruments?


No, in my opinion, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that (with the caveat that I do think that it would be sinful to suggest uninspired hymns--I'm convinced we aren't to use them). I suggest introducing Psalms to ministers and other brethren I know who don't hold my convictions (and wouldn't follow my advice if I told them to ditch the piano and hymnal) whenever I have opportunity. In my opinion, having more Psalms sung is a worthy goal, even when there's little hope for a full reformation of worship.


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## Qoheleth (Sep 16, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> I think yes.
> 
> I'm thinking about that dreadful scene of the three men at Redeemer PCA in New York City dancing as an offering of worship during a communion service. We would all agree this is a flagrant violation of the RPW. If you were a professional dance instructor and someone in the church asked if you could help improve things for the next time they did a dance offering by lending your expertise and helping them get crisper movements or whatever... I think the obvious answer would be, "No, I can't support lawbreaking in any way."
> 
> I wouldn't help dancers improve their dancing if I knew it was to be for worship. I wouldn't help my neighbor improve his marksmanship if I knew he was going to kill someone. I wouldn't help a woman improve her rhetoric and oratory skills if I knew she thought herself a "pastor".



I see your point, but I can't help but think that those circumstances are quite different from mine. In those situations, no good for the Church can come out of helping the dancers, neighbor, or woman pastor (I'm not sure if the example about the neighbor isn't even less of a fair comparison than the other two.) But in my case, I would be helping our congregation sing the Psalms and better-quality hymns, while not helping them use instruments or condoning their practice of it, though knowing the (what I believe to be) error will persist.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Qoheleth (Sep 16, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> No, in my opinion, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that (with the caveat that I do think that it would be sinful to suggest uninspired hymns--I'm convinced we aren't to use them). I suggest introducing Psalms to ministers and other brethren I know who don't hold my convictions (and wouldn't follow my advice if I told them to ditch the piano and hymnal) whenever I have opportunity. In my opinion, having more Psalms sung is a worthy goal, even when there's little hope for a full reformation of worship.



So it would seem that since I would only generally be promoting good practice and not actively participating in the error mixed in, it would be a good thing to do.


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## TylerRay (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> So it would seem that since I would only generally be promoting good practice and not actively participating in the error mixed in, it would be a good thing to do.


Right. You don't have to condone their excesses in order to promote positive change.

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## Parakaleo (Sep 16, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> But in my case, I would be helping our congregation sing the Psalms and better-quality hymns, while not helping them use instruments or condoning their practice of it, though knowing the (what I believe to be) error will persist.



Now that I understand more of what you're aiming to do (help with selecting psalms and hymns and singing tunes) I can see how it isn't quite the same as the analogies I have used. I would add the same caveat as Mr. Ray that I believe it would be sinful to recommend the singing of an uninspired hymn.


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## Qoheleth (Sep 16, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> Now that I understand more of what you're aiming to do (help with selecting psalms and hymns and singing tunes) I can see how it isn't quite the same as the analogies I have used. I would add the same caveat as Mr. Ray that I believe it would be sinful to recommend the singing of an uninspired hymn.



Could you give me a good scholarly resource on EP so I can dig into that matter a little more?


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## Parakaleo (Sep 17, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> Could you give me a good scholarly resource on EP so I can dig into that matter a little more?



Yes, brother. With pleasure. Here are dozens of them.

For starters, I might direct you to this from G. I. Williamson.


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## Qoheleth (Sep 19, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> Yes, brother. With pleasure. Here are dozens of them.
> 
> For starters, I might direct you to this from G. I. Williamson.


This may be moving further from the original question of this post, but what do those who subscribe to EP think of the view that no uninspired hymns are to be sung, but all of Scripture may be sung?


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## Parakaleo (Sep 19, 2017)

Qoheleth said:


> This may be moving further from the original question of this post, but what do those who subscribe to EP think of the view that no uninspired hymns are to be sung, but all of Scripture may be sung?



My short reply is that I would need to see testimony or proof of God communicating his desire that other parts of Scripture be sung in worship, whether by explicit command or by an authorized example from the apostles. I don't find this. Instead, I find a complete and glorious song-book of the Holy Spirit compiled in the 150 Psalms.

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## RamistThomist (Sep 19, 2017)

The Song of Moses and David's Song of the Bow are commanded, though not necessarily in a liturgical setting. But likewise, we don't have a specific command to sing "The 150." We are told Psalms, but not which ones. We may reason, rightly, by extension that it means the whole psalter. But that is a slightly different issue.

Further, Scripture doesn't command whether we are to sing at once, or if it is to be line-presenting.


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## JimmyH (Sep 19, 2017)

What about the songs in The Book Of The Revelation ?
http://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1091&context=leaven


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## RamistThomist (Sep 19, 2017)

JimmyH said:


> What about the songs in The Book Of The Revelation ?
> http://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1091&context=leaven



Excellent point, but some would say that the Apocalypse isn't a liturgy so it doesn't count.


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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 20, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Further, Scripture doesn't command whether we are to sing at once, or if it is to be line-presenting.



This is indifferent. Many did line by line in the older days because of illiteracy.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 20, 2017)

Andrew P.C. said:


> This is indifferent. Many did line by line in the older days because of illiteracy.


Indifferent unless or until it is made necessary. The Scottish commissioners to the WA were horrified by the line by line practice of the Independents; but given the realities of a whole nation learning a new psalm book (the 1650), the practice was adopted and then became so entrenched as to be deemed the 'way' to sing psalms. At that point it has become an idol and Hezekiah taught us what to do with those to remove the offense.

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