# Christ died for whom?



## CharlieJ (Feb 11, 2009)

Ephesians 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 


My question concerns the nature of the church. If the church is a mixed body (includes non-elect), how can this passage assert that Christ died for the church to present it spotless before God?


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## AThornquist (Feb 11, 2009)

The true church--the body of Christ--only consists of the elect. Our churches may have those who are unsaved sitting the pews, but they are not part of _the_ church.


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## Jesus is my friend (Feb 11, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> The true church--the body of Christ--only consists of the elect. Our churches may have those who are unsaved sitting the pews, but they are not part of _the_ church.


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## Hamalas (Feb 11, 2009)

WCF Chapter XXV
Of the Church

I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]


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## Whitefield (Feb 11, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> Ephesians 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
> 
> 
> My question concerns the nature of the church. If the church is a mixed body (includes non-elect), how can this passage assert that Christ died for the church to present it spotless before God?



*John 10:15* _As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep._

The church is the gathered sheep, the sheep the Father has given to the Son.


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## MW (Feb 11, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> My question concerns the nature of the church. If the church is a mixed body (includes non-elect), how can this passage assert that Christ died for the church to present it spotless before God?



The people for whom Christ died, taken in their totality, did not yet exist in the real world, but only in the purpose of God; therefore this text cannot be referring to the church in its visible aspect, but must be applicable to the church in its invisible aspect.


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## ManleyBeasley (Feb 11, 2009)

This is certainly speaking of the invisible church not the visible. The fact that she is presented spotless proves who he is speaking of.


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## DTK (Feb 12, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> Ephesians 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
> 
> My question concerns the nature of the church. If the church is a mixed body (includes non-elect), how can this passage assert that Christ died for the church to present it spotless before God?



I certainly believe your question has been very helpfully answered. But it was the consideration of this passage from Ephesians, as well as Acts 20:28, that became teaching moments for me years ago, and helped me to understand why such ancient church fathers made statements like those of Cyprian...



> *Cyprian (c. 200-58): *For they cannot live out of it, since the house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to any except in the Church. _ANF: Vol. V, The Epistles of Cyprian_, Epistle 51 - To Pomponius, §4.
> 
> *Cyprian (c. 200-58):* He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. _ANF: Vol. V, The Treatises of Cyprian_, Treatise 1 – On the Unity of the Church, §6.


Because outside of the church described in Ephesians 5 and Acts 20:28, there is no salvation.

DTK


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## Tim (Feb 12, 2009)

This is a useful comment for those who may not understand the statement "there is no salvation outside of the church".


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## CharlieJ (Feb 12, 2009)

Thank you, everyone. Those are good responses. I posted this because I am reading a book by a former Calvinist turned Catholic apologist (James Akin, _The Salvation Controversy_) who uses this verse against limited atonement. His argument was that the church is broader than the elect, so Christ's death is broader than the elect.

I'm not sure how he would explain the "church" being those who are finally presented to Christ (which even in Catholic theology would be the elect), but it seems to me that there is no easy answer to this question. In other words, it would take a more systematic approach that brought the Catholic's conception of the church into line.

-----Added 2/12/2009 at 08:21:49 EST-----

David, how do you know that's what Cyprian meant? Couldn't he just as easily have had a misconception of the visible church?

Even in the WCF, that statement refers to the visible church, for out of it "there is no *ordinary* possibility of salvation." (25.2)


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## DTK (Feb 12, 2009)

I am not claiming to understand any nuance intended by Cyprian. What I am saying is that *I* understand how he and others could make such statements in the light of Ephesians 5 and Acts 20:28, even if in his mind he understood no visible/invisible distinction. So I disagree with the presupposition of your question.

_Bene docet, qui bene distinguit._

DTK


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## CharlieJ (Feb 12, 2009)

I see. I simply misunderstood you, then.


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