# The Perfect



## heartoflesh (Feb 23, 2005)

*1 Corinthians 13:10-13*
"[10] But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. [13] And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love"


In reading Walter Chantry's "Signs of the Apostles" last night, he interprets this passage as Paul dealing with the cessation of charismatic gifts and the establishment of the NT canon of Scripture. I admit that this is something totally new to me. When I read this passage, my first impression is that Paul is speaking of heaven. 

Be that as it may, I can for the most part accept Chantry's exegesis of the passage in general, (especially his observation that it wouldn't make sense for there to be "hope" in heaven v.13), but one thing is still bothering me: Why would Paul say, _"Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known"_? How does Paul's personal experience play into the "perfection" of Scripture? Did he think he would be present when this occured?

Rick

[Edited on 2-23-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 23, 2005)

I used to think that the _perfect_ was the Word; I now believe it is Heaven. We still need knowledge.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease. 
1Co 13:11 When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant. 
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.

[Edited on 2-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 23, 2005)

"Perfect" in Scripture doesn't always, and perhaps not even very often, refer to heaven. It is a word that means "complete" or "whole", and thus can point to the final "end state," but it certainly is a word that requires a contextual reference to help make it clear.

My belief is that in verse 10 the language points to the completion of the canon of Scripture. Do not confuse the "perfection of *the thing*," verse 10 (completion of Scripture), with "perfection of *ME*," verse 12(_I_ know in part). This is one of the contrasts in the passage.

In the following verses Paul speaks of maturing. The reference to childhood and adulthood is a universal example of this process. But the main point is spiritual. We are growing in grace. This is one of the principal uses of the Word. We must have the Word in order to grow and mature in grace. But the process of maturity is not complete in this life. It is not complete until heaven. We need the guidance of the Word all throughout this life, because we see so dimly. _Hence the rationale for its *perfection* NOW._ No matter how we grow, we are still so far short of arriving at the place of mature knowledge--of seeing face to face--that won't happen to _*us*_ until heaven.

And faith, hope, and love (v. 13) are cardinal marks of genuine Christianity. They are measures of one's maturity, not exercises of or endowments of spiritula gifts. They are abiding now--they describe the present state of believers in this life.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 23, 2005)

Bruce,
v9 says that we 'know' partially and we 'prophesy' partially. v10 says that when the 'perfect' comes, that which we partially have will be done away with. We still need knowledge and we still need to preach.....If this rationale is wrong, what was Paul referring to as being done away with?
What will cease?


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## Puritanhead (Feb 23, 2005)

I think it means the end of our santification and our perfection and being raised in glorification.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 23, 2005)

The term 'perfect' is neuter in the Greek. If I am not mistaken, that means that 'perfect' is a thing.


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## VanVos (Feb 23, 2005)

The perfect is in the neuter (teleion), which can mean complete or mature i.e. 1 Cor 14:20 speaks of being mature (teleion) in understanding. The context of 1 Cor 13 is revelation. So the perfect in verse 10 has to be the completion of that revelation, like a train reaching it's final destination. The question obviously is then when does this revelation reach it maturity/completion?. Verse 11 seems to indicate that the process from partial to complete revelation is like that of a child growing into a man. The question then is, is the difference between a child and a man perfection or maturity? I think we can safely conclude that it is maturity. So when the perfect has come we will have reached maturity. The question then remains, is this a reference to the church reaching the unity (teleion) of the faith at the end of the age (Eph 4:11-12)? Or is it church receiving all truth concerning Christ through the teachings/doctrines of the Apostles (John 16:13, Eph 2:20)?

VanVos

Note: The perfect results in us seeing face to face. In the Old Testament the phrase face to face seems to mean clarity of speech rather than heaven Num 12:6-8, Ex 33:11.

[Edited on 2-23-2005 by VanVos]


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## heartoflesh (Feb 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VanVos_
> Note: The perfect results in us seeing face to face. In the Old Testament the phrase face to face seems to mean clarity of speech rather than heaven Num 12:6-8, Ex 33:11.
> 
> [Edited on 2-23-2005 by VanVos]



Yes, I believe those are the verse Chantry references in his exegesis.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm finally getting a chance to post this response. I hope it's still relevant to the discussion. So, for your perusal, examination, dissection... 

Here's my take on the questions you posed to me, Scott.


> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Bruce,
> v9 says that we 'know' partially and we 'prophesy' partially. v10 says that when the 'perfect' comes, that which we partially have will be done away with. We still need knowledge and we still need to preach.....If this rationale is wrong, what was Paul referring to as being done away with?
> What will cease?


Verse 8 tells us that "tongues" will cease. I don't think that this means that we won't speak in heaven, or that we will all speak a single language instead of many in heaven (although that may be--a reversal of Babel--I just don't think that's what he's saying). I think it *does* refer to the gift of tonuges, but heaven is not where they will cease relative to Paul's day. Special revelation via prophecies, tongues, and knowledge are all destined to wrap up. Paul doesn't have an end-date, but he knows these gifts are not of perpetual need, usefulness, or presence in the church.

Verse9.
"We" know in part = _we_ have incomplete spiritual knowledge. This is most probably referring to the spiritual gift of knowledge and/or wisdom (see 12:8, and 13:8), part of the extraordinary endowment of the apostolic age. It might otherwise refer to human minds and knowledge (spiritually). What Paul says of himself and his readers would therefore still be true today.

"We" prophesy in part = _we_ have incomplete prophecy. Here, we also have to take the difference between the apostolic age and ours into consideration. Prophecy in its full-orbed presentation was still present--declaring the Word of the Lord as exposition of old revelation _and_ presentation of new revelation (see verse 8). The new revelation (except for prophecies unknown to us, similar to Agabus', Acts 21:10ff) was essentially the New Testament revelation disseminated to the church by the Holy Spirit prior to its full inscripturation.

But evidently this prophecy was partial in every place--otherwise Paul's letters, Matthew's gospel, John's Revelation, etc. would not have been necessary. Not even the apostles (here Paul) dared to claim to have the total Word from God until all was written, and the Spirit stopped granting the extraordinary gifts.

I don't think that "prophesy in part" means that preachers only preach parts of the Bible (and not other parts). And I don't think he means that preachers preach only one part at a time (and not cover-to-cover every time they stand to deliver). And I do not think it means that preachers preach very imperfectly--this is not the language one would expect Paul to use to convey any of these ideas. Nor do these concepts fit the context well, in my view.

Moving to verse 10, 
My argument is that it is much doubtful that "the perfect (thing, nt.)" (substantival adjective, with article, _to teleion,_ from telios) there correlates to the previous _two_ "in part" adverbs-modifying verbs--"we" know and prophesy, not least for which the adjective (functioning as a noun) is in the singular. Either it is correlate to the one of the former two, our knowledge or our prophecy, or it something different. Either it means when OUR knowledge is perfect or OUR prophesy is perfect, or it refers to something indepentent of US at all.

I incline toward the latter opinion, that it is _something_ perfect that "arrives". Is that the heavenly state? I don't think so; that is too far removed from what he has just stated; I don't think he's setting up his readers for that, even if (maybe*) his discussion of spiritual growth and maturity goes so far as to touch on it eventually (v. 12). I think that it is _related_ to what he just said, regarding their partial knowledge and prophesy, but not a _substitutionary_ concept, except so far as it brings them together and supercedes them both.

"WE know partially" and "WE prophesy partially" are both superceded by SOMETHING complete and perfect, that eliminates every SINGLE partial thing (_to ek merous_--any thing partial). The Scriptures are the sufficient agent of maturing and growing believers. Having the Bible in our hands is as much an improvement of light shining in a dark place (2 Pet. 1:19) compared to them that were without it even in the apostolic age, as the fullness of heaven will be for us, still wending out way there, as the difference of the sun is to a torch.


* More relevant to the interpretation of verse 12 than I Jn. 3:2, might be James 1:25, cf. Num. 12:8 & Gen 32:30.


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## andreas (Feb 26, 2005)

***"I used to think that the perfect was the Word; I now believe it is Heaven. We still need knowledge***.


But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 1 Cor.13:10

When Christ comes, those things that we had partial knowledge in this world will cease, because God will speak to us face to face and we will understand and have full knowledge . Now we only have partial knowledge of things, and partial understanding , because we do not know the full mystery of God. 

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;" Hebrews 9:11

Here, that word perfect is the same Greek word (teleios) as in chapter 13.

So that which is perfect refers to Christ's coming when all our partial or incomplete knowledge will cease,as we will face God and understand all.
andreas.


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## JohnV (Feb 26, 2005)

Here's my take on it:

Let's say that you get a notion in your head. You think its a true notion. So you do your research, weigh things carefully, and redo and redo your work to be sure. You are open to any and every criticism, so as to be sure. Even the ridiculous you weigh carefully, just in case you missed something. After all, there is nothing more ridiculous than the truth when we are deceiving ourselves, and that is what we are trying to avoid. 

Well, you just had an encounter with perfect truth. Sure, you did not apprehend the full extent of that truth or all of it in its perfection, but the fact that it was a bit of truth is a taste of the perfection that truth is. You see, truth cannot be perceived unless it is itself perfectly true, regardless of your personal failings. We're not talking about you, we're talking about truth. And you just had an encounter with it. 

This was made possible because of God's gracious Spirit working in your heart and mind. Through submission to the grace of God, truth has been allowed to enter. It does not enter for the groping and grasping of it in pride and arrogance. It is received in humility. The perfect has come, even if it is perceived only in part. The signs of extraordinary revelation have lost their meaning once this has been realized, for that was the point of the signs to begin with, to get you to submit to the truth. What good is a car, even a brand new Mercedez, if you're already where you want to go?


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## heartoflesh (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> . The perfect has come, even if it is perceived only in part. The signs of extraordinary revelation have lost their meaning once this has been realized, for that was the point of the signs to begin with, to get you to submit to the truth. What good is a car, even a brand new Mercedez, if you're already where you want to go?



So if I understand you correctly, John, "The Perfect" should be understood in an "already/not yet" sense?


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 1, 2005)

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.

The passage says that we see 'dimly', _now_. It is a present tense. Later, when the perfect has come, we will be fully known and know fully, and see _face to face_

[Edited on 3-1-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Peter (Mar 1, 2005)

I believe with Bruce that the perfect is the completed canon of Scripture:

"Paul said that when the perfect comes (i.e., the completed N.T. revelation), prophecy and other modes of revelation would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-12)." -Brian Schwertley


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 1, 2005)

Do we not need knowledge? The passage says we _prophesy_ in part (partially) and we know (knowledge) partially. When the perfect comes, we will no longer need prophesy or knowledge, it will be done away with...........


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