# Church discipline for marrying Roman Catholics?



## EimiDoulos (May 8, 2011)

I believe that church discipline can and ought to be enacted in cases where a member marries an unbeliever, but is there any biblical grounds for discipline being enacted upon a member who willfully is dating and considering marriage with a Roman Catholic?
Keith
Elder in a confessional (LBCF-1689) Reformed Baptist Church
Cleveland, OH


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 8, 2011)

I believe the first half of your post answers the question. If the RC is an unbeliever, then you should exercise discipline. If the RC is a believer, then don't.

Also there is a way to make your signature permanent vs. having to type it out for each post. It makes it a little easier.


----------



## JonathanHunt (May 8, 2011)

I don't think this is a question to which there is a quick and easy answer. We can think of circumstances in which discipline would be appropriate. We can think of circumstances in which it would not.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (May 8, 2011)

Keith,
See the link in my signature for setting your signature in your profile.
As to the question, the original Westminster Confession of Faith says*:

III. It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent.5 Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord.6 And therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies.7

[5] HEB 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 1TI 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1CO 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. 37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. 38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better. GEN 24:57 And they said, We will call the damsel, and inquire at her mouth.


[6] 1CO 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.


[7] GEN 34:14 And they said unto them, We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us. EXO 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. DEU 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 1KI 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. NEH 13:25 And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. 26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. 27 Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives? MAL 2:11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the Lord which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The Lord will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the Lord of hosts. 2CO 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


*cut and paste from reformed.org; not checked for accuracy.


----------



## Rufus (May 8, 2011)

Would the Roman Catholic be the one switching over to the Protestants church?


----------



## Scott1 (May 8, 2011)

EimiDoulos said:


> I believe that church discipline can and ought to be enacted in cases where a member marries an unbeliever, but is there any biblical grounds for discipline being enacted upon a member who willfully is dating and considering marriage with a Roman Catholic?
> Keith
> Elder in a confessional (LBCF-1689) Reformed Baptist Church
> Cleveland, OH



In light of the Westminster summary of doctrine, I don't see how a biblical reformed _minister_ could marry a reformed church member and a Roman church member, even if he adjudged both to to believers, because of the minister's confession.

Not that it is necessarily the case you are asking about here, but it appears the minister could marry two nonbelievers who were nominal church members, Roman or otherwise.

So, in a sense, that might be the "discipline"- a biblical reformed minister declining to perform a marriage ceremony for a reformed believer to a person while a member of the Roman church.


----------



## Marrow Man (May 8, 2011)

The 1689 LBCF says this in 25:3



> It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent; yet it is the duty of Christians to marry in the Lord; and therefore such as profess the true religion, should not marry with infidels, or idolaters; neither should such as are godly, be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresy.


----------



## Edward (May 8, 2011)

The LBC of 1689 reads a little less clearly than the WCF:

CHAPTER 25
Paragraph 3. It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent; yet it is the duty of Christians to marry in the Lord; and therefore such as profess the true religion, should not marry with infidels, or idolaters; neither should such as are godly, be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresy.

Remember, the Protestant (member of a cult in RC terminology) will have to agree to bring up the children in the Roman faith:

"1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority. In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage. This permission or dispensation presupposes that* both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends* and properties of marriage and the obligations assumed by the Catholic party *concerning the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.*
Catechism of the Catholic Church Part II, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 7. III - posted on the Vatican website. (Emphasis supplied)


----------



## Rich Koster (May 8, 2011)

EimiDoulos said:


> I believe that church discipline can and ought to be enacted in cases where a member marries an unbeliever, but is there any biblical grounds for discipline being enacted upon a member who willfully is dating and considering marriage with a Roman Catholic?
> Keith
> Elder in a confessional (LBCF-1689) Reformed Baptist Church
> Cleveland, OH



My hope for anyone in this situation would be that a group of godly people, along with the elders, surround him/her with loving scriptural counseling, pleading, exhorting through experience and tears and urging someone like this not to start down the path of many sorrows. Many people have gone against God's word with the foolish notion that they will change the person they have feelings for, and suffered greatly for thinking they know better than God. Emotions and feelings can, and often do, override sound judgment.


----------



## Andres (May 8, 2011)

Scott1 said:


> I don't see how a biblical reformed minister could marry a reformed church member and a Roman church member



I agree brother, but I also don't see how a biblical, reformed Christian could marry a Roman Catholic period. I don't mean in your sense of perform the marriage, I mean in the sense of actually getting married to the RC.


----------



## MMasztal (May 8, 2011)

Andres said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see how a biblical reformed minister could marry a reformed church member and a Roman church member
> ...


 
Personally, I would have a problem getting involved with a die-hard Arminian or Pentacostal, never mind a Roman Catholic.


----------



## Andres (May 8, 2011)

MMasztal said:


> Personally, I would have a problem getting involved with a die-hard Arminian or Pentacostal, never mind a Roman Catholic.



Well, yes, I concur those two would present problems as well. Let's just sum it up by saying Reformed Protestants should marry other Reformed Protestants and then have lots of covenant children together.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scott1 (May 8, 2011)

EimiDoulos said:


> I believe that church discipline can and ought to be enacted in cases where a member marries an unbeliever,



I'm not sure if this is what you mean here, but,
The other aspect of this is how would a church discipline a believer after he has married an unbeliever? He's commanded to remain "as he is" (I Cor. 6), and try to exemplify Christ to her, etc.


----------



## jayce475 (May 8, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I believe the first half of your post answers the question. If the RC is an unbeliever, then you should exercise discipline. If the RC is a believer, then don't.
> 
> Also there is a way to make your signature permanent vs. having to type it out for each post. It makes it a little easier.


 
And how exactly do we ascertain whether an RC is a believer or unbeliever? If she believes in the biblical gospel, why then is she willfully still in communion with an apostate denomination?

Either way, any potential union ought to be put on hold and advised against. If they are already married, some form of discipline would need to be enacted, assuming the member was already in the church at the point of the marriage. There will be probably be more chastisement from God in store for the member as well because He is not a derelict Father. Then again, how exactly did they get married in the first place?


----------



## Grimmson (May 9, 2011)

jayce475 said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the first half of your post answers the question. If the RC is an unbeliever, then you should exercise discipline. If the RC is a believer, then don't.
> ...


 
If there are already married then I would warn against church discipline. Relationships on the individual level with those in communion with Rome is not as cut on dry as one would like, especially considering two things. The first being that RC baptism is acceptable to the Reformed community as a whole. If the RC is truly apostate, not a true church and completely teaching a false gospel, then you should not recognize the baptism of the one coming out of it before joining the reformed church. This is not a Donatist argument because the minister conducting the baptism is not part of the visible church, not based on the moral condition of the conducting the baptism. You would not accept Morman baptism or from another recognized cult. The second is the fact that there are many who have grown up in communion with Rome that are reading their Bible engaging in protestant practices of their faith without really knowing it. This coupled with family relationships of the given spouse makes it that much more difficult because of the family traditions that are being associated, alone with a lack of understanding on the theological differences between the reformed and the RC. If she is attending a Reformed church and is being taught by the church then instead of punishing her and her husband for her background now, assuming they are already married, they need to b e given grace and taught. I am more concerned with the guy's pastor that should know beforehand about the upcoming marriage. If he doesn’t then he probably not doing his job in interacting in the lives of his members, because marriages do not typically just appear out of nowhere. He, if he doing his job, should have know beforehand and dealt with it there, which would include meeting the gal in question. There is more to a marriage then just theology (even though this would be a good point for the husband to be the spiritual leader of the family), and the reality in practice is that if you look generally at a RC marriage(not referring to the ceremony) and that of the reformed here in the United States then the day to day practices will be about the same. In fact I hate to sound like an ass, I have meet many Roman Catholics who knew more about the Bible and the basic Gospel (using the meaning of imputation, but not the word itself) then I have with protestants and that includes within the Presbyterian tradition. Therefore I would warn caution before discipline is handed out against him and her. The result of the disciple could be damaging. Now would be a good time to teach them and receive the means of grace; not to drive them away. I have strong issue with any church that accepts you knowing their background and beliefs and immediately placing them under discipline without giving time for you learn and grow. A situation like this can really say something about the pastor and the type of work he has been engaged in, and on top of that the church which the pastor is representing.


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

EimiDoulos said:


> I believe that church discipline can and ought to be enacted in cases where a member marries an unbeliever, but is there any biblical grounds for discipline being enacted upon a member who willfully is dating and considering marriage with a Roman Catholic?
> Keith
> Elder in a confessional (LBCF-1689) Reformed Baptist Church
> Cleveland, OH


 
I believe that the Roman Catholic would have to become a christian before the christian can consider marrying them.


----------



## dudley (May 9, 2011)

I agree with brother David Jolley. I think his answer is well thought out and he cosiders all and many sides of the issue.


----------



## MLCOPE2 (May 9, 2011)

Andres said:


> Let's just sum it up by saying Reformed Protestants should marry other Reformed Protestants and then have lots of covenant children together.


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> The first being that RC baptism is acceptable to the Reformed community as a whole. If the RC is truly apostate, not a true church and completely teaching a false gospel, then you should not recognize the baptism of the one coming out of it before joining the reformed church.


 
The OP is a Baptist. That means his church certainly does not accept the "baptism" of a roman catholic. Nor do they accept that the roman catholic church is a christian church. Instead it is as spurgeon said a "mountain of rubbish covering the truth."

The roman catholic church is apostate and it's members need to be evangelized to Christ the same a mormons jws or any other cult like institution.


----------



## J. Dean (May 9, 2011)

Would this be a good place to bring up II Corinthians 6:14?


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 9, 2011)

jayce475 said:


> And how exactly do we ascertain whether an RC is a believer or unbeliever? If she believes in the biblical gospel, why then is she willfully still in communion with an apostate denomination?



How do we ascertain that anyone is a believer?


----------



## Marrow Man (May 9, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> Would this be a good place to bring up II Corinthians 6:14?



While I think it's applicable to marriage, we need to keep in mind that in the context of 2 Corinthians 6, marriage is not actually mentioned in the passage. The association of believers and unbelievers is far more pervasive that limiting it to marriage.


----------



## Marrow Man (May 9, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> How do we ascertain that anyone is a believer?



A credible profession of faith, generally accompanied by the fruit of a believing heart. Examination by a church session with regard to these would seem prudent.


----------



## JennyG (May 9, 2011)

I've heard that statistically speaking, when such a marriage takes place it's the believer who will sooner or later cease practising his/her faith. one more reason to go to any lengths rather than allow it to go forward in the first place


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 9, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> A credible profession of faith, generally accompanied by the fruit of a believing heart. Examination by a church session with regard to these would seem prudent.



I agree. I would point out that where one attends church is not a criteria for ascertaining a credible profession of faith. Thus I go back to my original statement......



> If the RC is an unbeliever, then you should exercise discipline. If the RC is a believer, then don't.


----------



## Grimmson (May 9, 2011)

Osage Bluestem said:


> The OP is a Baptist.



I was extending the dissusation to a wider context within our reformed circles, because of the majority of the interactions not being baptist. 


Osage Bluestem said:


> That means his church certainly does not accept the "baptism" of a roman catholic. Nor do they accept that the roman catholic church is a christian church. Instead it is as spurgeon said a "mountain of rubbish covering the truth."



I recognize that Baptist do not recognize Roman Catholic baptisms, however the same cannot be said for our fellow reformed churches. My point being I think we send a mix signal when we accept someone’s baptism and claim that they come from an apostate church. However even here we must be careful because there are plenty of Baptist churches which are apostate, and what I mean here is that they place a yoke of work on their people greater then Rome, divorced from any principle of santifying grace and do not not teach the gospel but instead morality (including in the SBC). 


Osage Bluestem said:


> The roman catholic church is apostate and it's members need to be evangelized to Christ the same a mormons jws or any other cult like institution.


Not only do members of the Roman catholic church need to be evanglised, but so do many baptist churches as well. 

Marrying a Roman catholic, especially considering the state of some of their members (having knowledge of the gospel, reading their Bible, helping with those in need, involved in Bible studies and prayer, ect.), is a much more complicated issue. I would be more interested to find out why the guy in question cannot find a wife within his denomination and tradition. Are there no women his age at his church? Why not? Such a marriage shows more of the condition of the church and the state of the leadership of that church.


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> Not only do members of the Roman catholic church need to be evanglised, but so do many baptist churches as well.



As we are evangelical we do that every Sunday. However, it is up to God if they will ever hear it or not. However, we do put special emphasis on and spend a lot of money in an effort to bring the gospel to babylon.



> Marrying a Roman catholic, especially considering the state of some of their members (having knowledge of the gospel, reading their Bible, helping with those in need, involved in Bible studies and prayer, ect.), is a much more complicated issue. I would be more interested to find out why the guy in question cannot find a wife within his denomination and tradition. Are there no women his age at his church? Why not? Such a marriage shows more of the condition of the church and the state of the leadership of that church.


 
I agree. It is a curious situation. I believe a saved Roman Catholic will most likely, I mean 99% of the time leave the Roman Catholic Church because it is so offensive to the Spirit that indwells the believer.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 9, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> Are there no women his age at his church? Why not?



The reasons could be endless. I will start preaching at a small church in a few weeks that only has 300 citizens within a ten miles radius of the church. If you are a young man, pickings are slim. Also if both are elect, I can't see a reason why they should not be wed. I would recommend that they continue to have meetings with the pastor after marriage to discuss theological differences. 

If I were the pastor and both were elect, I would wed the two and continue to counsel them after marriage.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (May 9, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> My point being I think we send a mix signal when we accept someone’s baptism and claim that they come from an apostate church.


You want to discuss baptism, do so in the correct forum where the supposed mixed signal can be discussed. Not here.


----------



## Grimmson (May 9, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> If I were the pastor and both were elect, I would wed the two and continue to counsel them after marriage.


 
I would not marry the two. I think that level of counseling needs to occur before the marriage. Also make it clear that the man needs to be the spiritual head of the household, to both of them. Meaning that she needs to follow and he needs to lead. If she cannot submit theologically I would advise against the marriage until she can.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 9, 2011)

I am not saying that I would not counsel prior. I just would not stop after they were wed.


----------



## Grimmson (May 9, 2011)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> > My point being I think we send a mix signal when we accept someone’s baptism and claim that they come from an apostate church.
> ...


 
The point was not a discussion of baptism, but instead membership and what is communicated which then is related to whom a believer can marry.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> I am not saying that I would not counsel prior. I just would not stop after they were wed.


 
There are certain things I think need to be established first, prior to the wedding, such as the roles each will have in the marriage. I would want to resolve any unneeded or causes of stress before the marriage takes place.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (May 9, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> There are certain things I think need to be established first, prior to the wedding, such as the roles each will have in the marriage. I would want to resolve any unneeded or causes of stress before the marriage takes place.



I am ok with that. I am just against the idea of not wedding based solely on the fact that the husband or wife is RC.


----------



## Scott1 (May 9, 2011)

JennyG said:


> I've heard that statistically speaking, when such a marriage takes place it's the believer who will sooner or later cease practising his/her faith. one more reason to go to any lengths rather than allow it to go forward in the first place


 
That may be.

Scripture would counsel the believer to remain as they are, and by good behavior, try to lead the unbeliever toward Christ (knowing that only God can save). An extra burden, perhaps, but that is God's will- regardless of course of the nominal status of their Christianity.

Many face a lifetime of chastisement by God for the initial and then subsequent disobedience of this.



> 1 Peter 3
> 
> 1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
> 
> ...


----------

