# Amillenialism: Current state of Satan?



## thistle93

Hi! Does Amillenialism believe that Satan is currently bound as described in Rev 20:2 or does it believe that it is currently the time that Satan is released from the pit for a short time as described in Rev 20:7, before he is cast into lake of fire? Or are both positions promoted by various theologians? If so, which position is most predominant? 

Thank you!

For His Glory-
Matthew Wilson


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## Andres

That he is bound. Think of it as a vicious dog on a chain. He still has some influence, but he is severely limited since Christ conquered him on the cross.


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## TeachingTulip

thistle93 said:


> Hi! Does Amillenialism believe that Satan is currently bound as described in Rev 20:2



Yes, indeed. According to Hebrews 2:14-15.




> or does it believe that it is currently the time that Satan is released from the pit for a short time as described in Rev 20:7, before he is cast into lake of fire?



Amills believe Satan's power has been defeated on the cross, and that Christ will without the devil's hindrance, build His church until all the elect predestined to be saved will be saved. Then Satan will be loosed for a short season to deceive the remainder of all the non-elect in the world. Revelation 20:1-10

In other words,'s, the "thousand years" consist of Christ's rule and gathering of His church, during the time of His first coming and His last return to judge.

"Amillennialism" is a denial of any kind of earthly reign (or literal 1000 years) preceding or following Christ's second coming.


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## Scott1

It has become my understanding that amillennialism Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection. He still has some power, is still an enemy, but I'm not sure how best to describe that. 

I think it is fair to say, even in amillennialism, to say the Christian has three enemies- the world, the flesh, and the devil.

The "thousand years" is figurative for the time between our Lord's resurrection, and His return to judge all men.

Also, you may already know this, amillennialism understands the "latter days" to have begun when our Lord ascended into heaven.

(These principles, which the church held to, in the main historically, are completely contrary to modern dispensational premillenialism, etc.)


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## SolaScriptura

What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"


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## Peairtach

> And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.



Satan's binding is progressive from the first century onwards, as the Gospel goes forth.

(a) He laid hold on him

(b) Bound him for 1,000 years.

(c)Cast him into a bottomless pit.

(d)Shut him up

(e)Set a seal on him

This position is more consonant with Optimistic Amillennialism or Postmillennialism, and also ties in with how, although the Millennium was realised in the first century (Amillennialism), there has also been progress since then over the last 2,000 years (Postmillennialism).


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## Scott1

SolaScriptura said:


> What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"


 


Scott1 said:


> Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection.



In the sense of salvation.

Pretty much, the nations outside of Israel were without the Word of God, and without salvation before our Lord's resurrection.


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## SolaScriptura

Scott1 said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the sense of salvation.
> 
> Pretty much, the nations outside of Israel were without the Word of God, and without salvation before our Lord's resurrection.
Click to expand...

 
And that didn't have anything to do with the fact that God's people, and their witness, was limited geographically and the OT didn't tell them to "go make disciples of the nations?"

Is Satan able to "deceive" at all? If he can deceive a person, can he "deceive" a people group? (Because there certainly are people groups without the Word of God.)


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## Peairtach

Whole nations _as nations_ have been deceived and are being deceived. 

The elect are not deceived, at least after their conversion.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Richard Tallach said:


> And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satan's binding is progressive from the first century onwards, as the Gospel goes forth.
> 
> (a) He laid hold on him
> 
> (b) Bound him for 1,000 years.
> 
> (c)Cast him into a bottomless pit.
> 
> (d)Shut him up
> 
> (e)Set a seal on him
> 
> This position is more consonant with Optimistic Amillennialism or Postmillennialism, and also ties in with how, although the Millennium was realised in the first century (Amillennialism), there has also been progress since then over the last 2,000 years (Postmillennialism).
Click to expand...


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## SolaScriptura

Richard Tallach said:


> Whole nations _as nations_ have been deceived and are being deceived.
> 
> The elect are not deceived, at least after their conversion.


 
Was there ever a time when that happened?


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## Scott1

SolaScriptura said:


> Is Satan able to "deceive" at all?



The right answer, which we know from the standpoint of the sovereignty of God is... only if God allows (ordains) it.

In a sense, God did this in a general way when the light of His special revelation was primarily limited to the covenant community of Israel in the Old Testament.

There were exceptions, of course, but in general, Satan is no longer "free" to deceive the (Jewish and Gentile worlds) from the gospel after our Lord's death, burial and resurrection.


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## jwithnell

Satan is defeated now and our orientation should be toward heaven and the new earth. But there is a "not yet" sense to it in that we still live in a sinful world and await the second advent. Just as we are fully justified and sanctified -- but not yet -- because we still struggle with sin in our lives. God, who is outside of time, has condescended to reveal Himself to His creature that is limited in his perspective to the sequential passage of time.


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## lynnie

I guess I'll be the odd view here, I am amil but I think we are probably at the very end when satan is unleashed or about to be unleashed. The rise of Islam, the post Christian west, too many nukes in too many itchy hands. I might be wrong but at no time in history (unless before the flood) have there been nuclear weapons accessible to Islam, and that alone is a set up for horror. I might be wrong, but I expect to see the Lord come back in my life or the life of my kids.


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## torstar

Is it true that the original language term for the Revelation binding is the same as that of the strong man binding so that his house may be robbed?

Or was that another sermon from my youth that turned out a tad apocryphal?


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## Pilgrim Standard

TeachingTulip said:


> Amills believe Satan's power has been defeated on the cross, and that Christ will without the devil's hindrance, build His church until all the elect predestined to be saved will be saved. Then Satan will be loosed for a short season to deceive the remainder of all the non-elect in the world. Revelation 20:1-10



What further deception do the non-elect need though? I certainly wonder what it means for the nations to be deceived if they are already deceived.
[edit] does is simply mean 'further' deception?


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## Jerusalem Blade

Matthew,

This is one of the key questions of eschatology today – per your OP – given that the amillennial view is the Biblical one. Thus I am answering according to the OP, and don’t wish to start a debate on this in relation to the other views – another thread can be for that, and I probably won’t participate as I’m busy packing to head back to the U.S., after 9 years away.

Lynnie,

Your view is not odd even though it may stand alone in this thread thus far.

As mentioned above, the nations _as nations_ cannot be deceived by Satan during the 1,000 years (Rev 20:3), though there will be “a little season” where he will be loosed and able to do that, and this brief season will be after the 1,000 years “be fulfilled”, just prior to the Lord’s return.

During the 1,000 years – indicating almost the entirety of the church age – Satan is quite active against individuals but not against nations, as we can see. _Spiritually_ he is under the feet of the elect, seated as they are in Christ in the heavens (Eph 2:6; 1:18-23), though they love not their physical lives even unto the death, bearing witness to Him in the hostile God-hating world.

When Satan is loosed, he is still under the believers’ feet, but he is given power to deceive the leaders and peoples of the whole unbelieving world (Rev 16:13, 14), albeit unwittingly acting out God’s decree to gather them for the final battle as v. 14 says, which battle is also shown in Rev 19:11-21, and, in a cameo, in 20:9.

It does seem that nations – _as nations_ – are being given over to wholesale deception again, denying the Christ of God and persecuting the Christians. Many nations in the third world, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and also Communists (N. Korea, Eritrea, China) increasingly persecute Christians; but now we are seeing the West slowly begin to do so. There is a mighty surge in the U.K. to marginalize, criminalize, and crush the church, and it is being restrained for the moment, but a consensus is slowly building there against the people of God, and the U.K. will eventually fall. Did we think that only our brethren in the non-Western nations would be given to suffer, while the white, wealthy, and wise would be exempt? In Canada parts of the Bible have been deemed “hate speech” in the courts for its declaring non-heterosexual unions and activity sin in God’s eyes, and the pressure there mounts.

Only the stand-up Christians will oppose the cultural tidal-wave of postmodern relativity (don’t impose what’s true for you on others’ truths) regardless of the consequences. The nominal Christians will show their true colors and disavow those who stay true to the Bible and its Lord. The wheat will be separated from the chaff in the wind of intense societal disapproval and sanctions.

Even though pre-2nd W.W. Germany was one of the most culturally advanced nations, it yielded to the Nazi vision and activity. Even so, America will turn brutal – worse than the 3rd world and Communism! (if one can imagine that) – in its hatred of the faithful Christian witness. Like a great undercurrent it is building and will surface eventually. Perhaps some trigger event – some pistol-packin’ Christian? – will shoot someone highly popular, and we’ll all be painted with the same brush: “Get rid of these Christians who hate progress and civil rights! They are enemies of humanity!” 

We are seeing _nations_ given over to wholesale hatred of Christ and His people. We seem to be at that cusp of Satan’s being bound and his release, i.e., he’s _just_ been loosed.

The West, especially America, has gotten fat, lazy, godless, and hedonistic, and the church has picked up her ways. For love of His bride the Lord will purify her in the fires of affliction, that she come out of her and cleave to Him.

Satan’s loosing is at the Lord’s command; He controls the opening of the seals and the sounding of the trumpets: it is time for us to practice what we preach. What will the affliction look like? Look at what our sisters and brothers suffer in Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran etc and double it. It won’t be pretty. Everything sacred to us will be profaned, despoiled.

I agree with Lynnie that it may very well be in our lifetimes (well, I’m old, at almost 69) or our children’s. I know what I’m coming back to returning to America. But it’s my country, and my home church, and I’ll stand with it.

Those who say we’ll be raptured out before any tribulation lull the saints. Those who say, Most of the tribulation happened ages ago, things will get better and better now – these also lull the saints when they need to awaken. But the Lord will see to that. We are _not_ exempt from the suffering, and the loosing of Satan for his little season will make that clear. I don’t hear that preached much. But no matter, the Lord will see to it.


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## Notthemama1984

At the risk of hijacking the thread......
 back Steve!


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## Pilgrim Standard

Jerusalem Blade said:


> As mentioned above, the nations as nations cannot be deceived by Satan during the 1,000 years (Rev 20:3),



What of the Nations that are deceived? Must they be Christian Nations first then fall away in order to be considered deceived, or deceivable? 
Example North Korea. Would they be considered not deceivable since they are already deceived? 
What would be the criteria for a Nation to be deceived? 
The England under a Papal king = deceived, deceivable or irrelevant until end of 1000 year?
see what I am getting at?


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## JM

[video=youtube;PzxLXxv1rio]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxLXxv1rio[/video]


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## Peairtach

> Those who say, Most of the tribulation happened ages ago, things will get better and better now – these also lull the saints when they need to awaken.



Welcome back, Steve, and I hope you have a good move to the U.S.

I'm postmil, but I wouldn't say that things are getting better and better in Britain. Tribulation isn't just of the AD 70 variety. Lots of Christians experienced the tribulation of state and ecclesiastical persecution in the twentieth century in various nations and do today. It looks set to increase in the West.

*JWithnell*


> Satan is defeated now and our orientation should be toward heaven and the new earth. But there is a "not yet" sense to it in that we still live in a sinful world and await the second advent. Just as we are fully justified and sanctified -- but not yet -- because we still struggle with sin in our lives. God, who is outside of time, has condescended to reveal Himself to His creature that is limited in his perspective to the sequential passage of time.



Just as with individual eschatology, the individual believer has to grow, strengthen and mature, so it is with the worldwide Church.


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> When Satan is loosed, he is still under the believers’ feet, but he is given power to deceive the leaders and peoples of the whole unbelieving world (Rev 16:13, 14), albeit unwittingly acting out God’s decree to gather them for the final battle as v. 14 says, which battle is also shown in Rev 19:11-21, and, in a cameo, in 20:9.
> 
> It does seem that nations – as nations – are being given over to wholesale deception again, denying the Christ of God and persecuting the Christians.



I'm not trying to advocate a position in this, only to understand.

What you describe here and the tenor of your assessment sounds like what is sometimes called the "pessimistic amillennialism" position. A few questions if you have time:

1) Is that a fair term or is this really classical amillennialism?
2) What Scriptural basis is there, other than Revelation 16:13-14 for this decline, apostasy at the end?
3) Is "optimistic amillenialism" just more even at the end, between good and evil before our Lord's return?

One note in your worldwide assessment, how are you factoring in the real advance of biblical Christianity is some places (not just in spite of decline, but seemingly buoying up whole cultures- e.g. South Korea, some parts of Central American, and a burgeoning house church in Communist China)?


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## lynnie

JB Steve...thanks for a thoughtful reply. I talked to somebody today that said I have a somewhat pessimistic view living in America, but tremendous revival is going on in other places, especially parts of Africa. As Scott says "One note in your worldwide assessment, how are you factoring in the real advance of biblical Christianity is some places (not just in spite of decline, but seemingly buoying up whole cultures- e.g. South Korea, some parts of Central American, and a burgeoning house church in Communist China)?" So I don't know, maybe these optimistic amils are right and there is no unloosing yet, just more of what we've been experiencing for 2000 years? 

I was paging through parts of Riddlebarger's amil book, and he points out that when Satan is unloosed at the end of the mil, this will correspond with Thess 2 and the coming of the lawless one with all signs and wonders. I think we can agree that whether or not you think that will be one person or an antichrist entity, it isn't operating yet (Benny Hinn to the contrary  ). I suspect we will know the unloosing is here when we see this miracle working lawless one deceiving to a massive degree.

We do have 4-5 billion people out of 6-7 billion, TOTALLY dependent on the electric grid. Water, heat, food, cooking, sewage, travel, everything. And you have the potential for enormous disruption to that with some well placed atmospheric EMPs or land bombs, and nations like Pakistan with nukes, and who knows how many smuggled from the USSR through Chechnya. I watch the whole picture and it looks to me like the ingredients for an apocalypse. Has there ever been a time in history when in one hour- only one hour, Babylon, the great world system opposed to God, could be destroyed? I suppose if we think of asteroids and solar flares and so forth yes, God could do it in one hour of course. But I am suspecting nukes, just my opinion. (If indeed the one hour is literal.) They talk about sci fi satellite laser weapons that can be aimed at earth to burn....I wonder what is being worked on in secret and if the day is coming soon when in one hour our whole lifestyle will burn up. 

Hey, have a great move back to the USA, and may God bless, and provide.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Thanks, Boliver – and Richard!


Benjamin, I would think that a nation (deceived) need not have been a “Christian” one (that is, having many Christians in it, and showing favor to its churches), but rather not an anti-Christian one, which then turned and enacted policies, either official or tacit, persecuting the faith in some way.

When Satan deceives the nations in Rev 16:13, 14 and 20:8, 9 it is with the purpose of attacking God through attacking His people. The desire to destroy God’s people is the aim of the deception.


Scott, I don’t think of myself or the amil view I hold as pessimistic; were I to consign an amount of gold ore to the crucible for smelting and refining, I look at the pure gold produced, not the removal and destruction of the dross. For 43 years the Lord has loved me by both the discipline of affliction and the prospering of my way. When Paul said,Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter (Ro 8:35, 26)​he wasn’t being pessimistic, but affirming that we were more than conquerors through the love of our God and Savior, from whom we could not be separated by these things. It’s classic amillennialism.

I’d say another Scriptural basis for the apostasy at the end is found in 2 Thess 2:3. Likely also Matt 24:10 ff., where “offended” is the Greek _skandalizo_, and here refers to disillusionment with the Way and turning against it. True, this being “offended” has occurred throughout the church age, yet will become massive as fiery trials afflict the saints in the end times.

The “optimistic” view? The tribulation shown in Scripture, such as Rev 20:8, 9,And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them​which is illumined by Rev 11:7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them​indicating that the church shall be virtually destroyed in the final assault upon it – at least any visible organized church, the surviving saints having gone “underground” – and the Lord will at that point return to destroy the destroyers, this being Armageddon. I have seen Zech 14:1-4 interpreted in this light also: pertaining to the persecution up though the church age, but intensifying at the end. Riddlebarger, Beale, Dennis Johnson, Hendriksen, Azurdia all hold to this basic view of the final persecution, and I wouldn’t call them either pessimistic or optimistic.

The church, even in its vast martyrdom, is glorious, triumphant, scorning death, esteeming the love of the Saviour more than life.

The church will prosper in many areas, spread like wildfire, even if it come to pass in the end as it is written, “For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter” (Ro 8:36).

There may be a great reviving of the church in America when censure and persecution come, alongside a great falling away. Even if only a tenth remain true, or a fiftieth, the glory will rest upon those who love not their lives unto the death.

It simply cannot be that the “white, wealthy, and wise” will be exempted from being conformed to Christ in His suffering and death, while the poor and persecuted under hostile pagan religions and governments are not. We will be given the opportunity to show our mettle.

It is a great mercy that the wildfires of God’s truth and love are racing through China and South Korea and parts of Africa. May He also quicken many in the State of Israel, and Egypt, Iran, and other Muslim strongholds, and elsewhere across the globe. But even as the Saviour shines in hearts worldwide, the purifying fires of persecution follow. Rev 20:9 seems to show that the hordes of Satan covered the breadth of the earth, and compassed the saints and the beloved city, which I take to be the church throughout the world, in a universal attempt to wipe out God’s kingdom on earth, that the devil may establish his – for the saints will always oppose the falsity of any king and kingdom not of God.

There is a glorious church in North Korea, even though there may be some 60,000 saints in prisons and hard labor camps (per the Barnabas Fund). It is a suffering church, true even unto death. We need to give ourselves more to pray for our suffering brothers and sisters, so we’ll know how to pray for ourselves when our time of need comes.

Lynnie, I theorize about similar dynamics of the end in Thoughts on Babylon the Great in Revelation. I also think nuclear events will play a part in the end, particularly with regard to Babylon. When I was in the Marines some 52 years ago I was an ABC Monitor (Atomic, Biological, Chemical), trained to test for the presence of those substances in the field, and I’ve maintained an interest in their military use up through the years.

What exactly is Babylon is a matter I ponder. You are right when you say it is “the great world system opposed to God”. But could it have a headquarters nation as it did in the ancient empires of Chaldean Babylon and Rome? The implications of that are immense.

I’m very excited about the prospect of returning home to my country. I hope the Lord will give me to be able to write about these things, and to earn our living by this. The days we are living in are the days of the Story beneath all stories – the reality beneath all the mirage images of sci fi and fantasy.

And soon, the Everlasting Kingdom, the Saviour walking among us on the new Earth.

[By "white, wealthy, and wise" I do not mean to skip over peoples and churches of color and/or other ethnicities, but rather to typify the privileged who may be at ease in Zion.]


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## Peairtach

Apostasies of various kinds associated with various parts of the world have happened in Church history down through the centuries? 

Why would the current spiritual malaise in Western Europe and North America be the final release of Satan?



> And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.



Ezekiel 37-39, a passage that is a helpful expansion on Revelation 20, indicates that this apostasy will happen after Israel (i.e. the New Covenant Church) has been securely settled in her Land (i.e. the whole Earth) for a long period of time. This hasn't been the case in Church history so far. See e.g. Patrick Fairbairn's commentary on Ezekiel.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Richard,

Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as _a conglomerate_ have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.

I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age _combined_. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?

Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.

Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.

America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& _upper_ middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.

We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.

We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!

This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.

Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.


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## TeachingTulip

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Richard,
> 
> Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as _a conglomerate_ have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.
> 
> I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age _combined_. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?
> 
> Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.
> 
> Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.
> 
> America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& _upper_ middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.
> 
> We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.
> 
> We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!
> 
> This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.
> 
> Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.



Pastor,

Your words of wisdom and warning are a continuing blessing and encouragement to myself and my husband. Thank you for your posts and your courage to call things as they are.

You will be in our prayers as you travel back to the U.S.


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## Peairtach

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Richard,
> 
> Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as _a conglomerate_ have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.
> 
> I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age _combined_. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?
> 
> Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.
> 
> Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.
> 
> America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& _upper_ middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.
> 
> We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.
> 
> We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!
> 
> This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.
> 
> Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.


 
I agree with your assessment that the Church in the West is facing severe ecclesiastical and state persecution as a result of fundamentalist secular humanism and political correctness. But not that it is the end of the World. But I'm postmil rather than amil so that might be expected.


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.
> 
> We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!



The only caution in this is that we are not good interpreters of our own times.

We are, quite naturally shaped much by our experiences.

We inherently lack perspective, context and of course, the immutable attributes of our God (infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresence).

Tonight, we read of another time in which Christians were departing from the faith- and when in such close proximity to our Lord's resurrection, and the divine inspiration of apostolic authority even.



> Galatians 1
> 
> 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
> 
> 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
> 
> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



And an Apostle who prayed even for deliverance from the evil generation he lived in



> 4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:



And, also, though we cannot know for sure, statistics tell us there are far more Christians (both in number and percentage of people on earth) than there have ever been.

That counts for something, something very big in the Kingdom of God, even if God's plan is to place many of us in positions to suffer.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Ronda, thanks to you and your husband for the encouragement.


Scott, a few remarks on your post:

You _are_ amil, is that correct? Otherwise we would not be on the same page.

I think it is a good “caution” you posit with respect to attempting to discern our own times. Of course we lack the divine “perspective”, but does this mean that we are virtually blind and can see nothing at all?

The example you gave from Galatians 1 where Christians were being lured away by false teaching pertained to a limited region, and not the mass of the church. Nor had the falling away been complete, and so Paul wrote to them to abort the work of the Judaizers.

Regarding the prophetic Scriptures being given us that we may know the times we are in, I’d like to quote something from Stuart Olyott’s great little commentary on Daniel, _Dare To Stand Alone_. The angel has been telling Daniel the visions of chapter 8:

“ ‘You have heard the truth, Daniel,’ says the angel (26). ‘Now preserve the vision, because the future will need a record of what you have seen.’

“And it did. In those darkest of days, when the people of God were being hounded and killed in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, they needed and they had the comfort of this chapter of Daniel. Throughout that period they were consoled by knowing that this wicked man could not have stepped on to the page of history without divine permission and that everything he did, however awful, was nothing other than what God had predicted centuries earlier. They knew that in God’s time, and in fulfilment of verse 25, he would at last be removed. To know all this was an indescribable comfort to them in horrific times.” (p. 110)​
In like manner we also are given the Scriptures that we may have discernment. Jesus said to the apostles (and also to us), “These things have I spoken unto you, that you should not be offended [the Greek _skandalizo_ again] . . . But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them” (John 16:1, 4).

It is true, that generation upon generation has thought the end times were upon _them_, but the troubles they knew were just _typical_ of that trouble to seize both the world and the people of God in the _final_ time.

But here we are looking at both the quality and quantity of deception as regards entire nations, and not only entire nations, but the entire world of nations. Yes, when the popes said they were the vicars of Christ ruling the church – and the world! – and were as He Himself, the while hunting and slaughtering the saints, at this time it did indeed seem to be the fulfilling of 2 Thess 2 and the man of sin / lawlessness. But the papal usurpation was only typical of one to come. We don’t see such a figure yet in our day in 2011, if in fact it is to be an individual antichrist (which I do think).

The falling away today is of a different sort. It is affecting the Reformed churches, as well as the rest. Rome is already lost, as is Eastern Orthodoxy (though there surely are some believers in their midst, despite the false doctrines). Now we are seeing the Anglican / Episcopal churches fall, and Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Lutherans, Methodists. And even the conservative P&R churches are being caught in the flood spewing from the mouth of the serpent (Rev 12:15), which the amil commentators say is a flood of false teaching and deception to sweep away the woman / church. It was true in John’s day, _and_ in ours.

Increasingly Roman Catholic / New Spirituality (New Age) teaching is entering PCA (and other) churches in the form of “Contemplative Prayer” and other spiritual aberrations. Then we have the FV and NPP, and also “Theonomy” / Christian Reconstruction. It is a flood! Those who stay true to the Gospel and the Scriptures may grow smaller and smaller in number. Might there be a great revival in the church? Yes. Maybe the specter of multitudes departing will alarm some and they will cry out to God for help. 

Then there is the problem of worldliness, self-pleasing, ease and comfort luring even the godly, for the wine of Babylon is sweet to the flesh. Meanwhile, “at ease in Zion”, we are “not grieved for the affliction of Joseph” (Amos 6:1, 6). On these verses J.A. Motyer says,

It was a shrewd thrust for Amos to describe the nation as _Joseph_—the lad who wailed his heart out in a deep pit while his brothers sat down to eat (Gen. 37:23-25; 42:21). (_The Message of Amos_; IVP, p. 146).​
Our sisters – mothers, wives, daughters – and brothers are wailing in the jungles of India, the prisons of Iran, the hard labor camps of North Korea, the killing fields of Iraq, and on and on . . . and do we grieve? And in prayer ask our Lord to succor them? It is a good practice to pray so, for we will learn the needs of the suffering church, and when our time of need comes we will already know how to pray.

I would love nothing better, Scott, than for me to be off by 3 or 4 _or 7 or 8_ decades! Above I’ve referenced a couple of other threads on this general topic, and I haven’t said anything here about the identity of Babylon, and our possible part in that, and perhaps it’s better I don’t broaden the scope of this thread and its inquiry.

“The quality and quantity of deception as regards entire nations”? That’s amenable to empirical assessment. That’s why I don’t think I’m out of order considering the possibility that the loosing of Satan (Rev 20:7, 8ff.) has already happened, even though it may well take time for the nations en mass to be deceived so as to desire the death and destruction of the church of God.

At the very least we should be teaching the people of God how to be serious disciples – given the times – and how to walk close to Him that we may know to avail ourselves of His strength in our weakness. Jeremiah 12:5 gives the thought that if we don’t know how to walk intimately with Him for strength and grace in gentle times, how shall we manage in the turbulent? And so I prepare the people: to know Him, to rejoice and find comfort in Him, our great Shepherd and Friend.


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## Peairtach

> Regarding the prophetic Scriptures being given us that we may know the times we are in, I’d like to quote something from Stuart Olyott’s great little commentary on Daniel, Dare To Stand Alone. The angel has been telling Daniel the visions of chapter 8:



A very good commentary.


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> The example you gave from Galatians 1 where Christians were being lured away by false teaching pertained to a limited region, and not the mass of the church. Nor had the falling away been complete, and so Paul wrote to them to abort the work of the Judaizers.



The only difficulty one might have with the reasoning is that the "legalism" that entailed was a challenge in many physical places in the church as the new testament church was developing in the first century. I'm not sure it was an isolated, particular problem, though certainly it was acute at the time the apostle wrote. Nor was it clear the apostasy was not "complete" there- we only know that Christianity virtually disappeared from that region (central Turkey) over time.

It's difficult to say that as a proposition that things were not as bad then, were only locally confined. It appears the early church was constantly in peril (perhaps a corollary to our time).


Jerusalem Blade said:


> You are amil, is that correct? Otherwise we would not be on the same page.



I am not firmly settled in a millennial position yet, enough has not been clear to me from Scripture (but have the sense of inevitably ending up amillennial, perhaps as GI Williamson has said, "an optimistic amillenialist or a non-utopian post millennialist").

---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------




Jerusalem Blade said:


> But here we are looking at both the quality and quantity of deception as regards entire nations, and not only entire nations, but the entire world of nations.



I'm not sure we can really differentiate our time in this way from say, the early Roman Empire, even World War I. I'm not sure we have that context.

---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------




Jerusalem Blade said:


> The falling away today is of a different sort. It is affecting the Reformed churches, as well as the rest.



Not the true ones.

Isn't this the case of the seven churches in Revelation 3- strengthening and falling away going side-by-side in the various churches, and isn't this ongoing in the new testament age?

All that said, the perseverance and faithfulness, and discernment God has given you is both admired and respected, dear brother!


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## Jerusalem Blade

Thanks for your gracious words, Scott!

The problem with your using Galatians as an early example and equivalent of the apostasy that was later to occur on national and universal scales is the quantitative difference. Yes, the early church was beset from the outset with false doctrine seeking entrance.

Rev 20:3 says Satan was bound as respecting his ability to deceive the nations _qua nations_ at the onset of the thousand years. Amil commentators agree that this was around the time of the Lord’s resurrection and ascension, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Have you a different timetable re the binding of Satan in this respect? So, yes, there was deception and falling away in the early church, but the issue the OP focuses on is the other end of the millennium. From a period where the nations _qua nations_ were not deceived, Scripture says there will come a period where they will be, not only as nations individually, but “the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth” (Rev 20:8), or as Rev 16:14 puts the entities involved in the same event, “the kings of the earth and of the whole world” now being subject to the deceiving spirits, that is, the rulers and the people. The only equivalent of this massive desire of the nations to destroy the people of God was in the Old Testament times, as in the Babylonian and the Roman Empires. So bringing in the early church events is really not pertinent to happenings after the thousand years are finished. 

I don’t think I would call G.I. amil. So perhaps it is that you are not amil at present, and are arguing against the classic view of that position. The amil view – and the question in the OP – pertains to a common understanding of the “thousand years” and the query is really about when the binding of Satan is loosed. As I said earlier, it isn’t really appropriate in this thread to debate the views, but rather the time of the loosing.

So when you say, “I'm not sure we can really differentiate our time in this way from say, the early Roman Empire, even World War I”, this seems to me a basic denial of the amil schema, for indeed we can – and exegetically _must_ – differentiate those early periods from the time of the loosing. Now if you’re not amil you likely won’t agree – but you should realize this is an amil “in house” inquiry.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the true Reformed churches will not apostatize, or rather, those elect members within them will not, as happened with the PCUSA and the forming of the PCA and OPC etc. when the saints came out of her.

In the seven Revelation churches there were regional churches that were indeed falling away, and the Lord was calling them to repent; and, yes, these churches were typical of conditions in the various ecclesiastical bodies throughout the N.T. age, and the Spirit ordered all the seven letters to be read to all the seven churches, and not to them only, but to “the churches” all, even unto our day.

In sum: we may very well be – and I think we surely are – in the period when Satan has been loosed for his grand purpose of deception of the rulers and people of the whole earth; not merely deception regarding the salvation of God in Christ (for this is the condition of all the unbelieving world anyway), but such deception as will cause them to seek to destroy all the churches and all the people of God from off the face of the earth.

How long this process of deception will take is not clear. Some say it started with the Russian revolution, some say the French, and others see it later in the 20th century. The important point is, the phenomena of states officially turning against the Christian faith, and the increase of these, first perhaps de facto, and then de jure.

I think it’s happening now, but cannot ascertain the timeframe of its coming to fruition. And so I watch, and pray.

---------

P.S. A story about G.I.: he told a young URC pastor and myself that we were “going to a Scottish restaurant for lunch” – guess where we went? McDonald’s!


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> The problem with your using Galatians as an early example and equivalent of the apostasy that was later to occur on national and universal scales is the quantitative difference.



Yes, but look how small the (universal) church was at the time of Galatia!


Jerusalem Blade said:


> So bringing in the early church events is really not pertinent to happenings after the thousand years are finished.


unless one understands these to all be happenings between the two advents of our Lord.



Jerusalem Blade said:


> In the seven Revelation churches there were regional churches that were indeed falling away, and the Lord was calling them to repent; and, yes, these churches were typical of conditions in the various ecclesiastical bodies throughout the N.T. age, and the Spirit ordered all the seven letters to be read to all the seven churches, and not to them only, but to “the churches” all, even unto our day.



Yes, this is the way I understand this- both actual churches at the time of writing, and types of churches through the church age.


Jerusalem Blade said:


> I don’t think I would call G.I. amil



But, the esteemed author says "call me either optimistic amillennialist or non-utopian postmillennialist," and I take him to be in the main of reformed theology.

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------




Jerusalem Blade said:


> I think it’s happening now, but cannot ascertain the timeframe of its coming to fruition.



Perhaps so, but quoting from GI Williamson, The Westminster Confession for Study Classes, p. 345:



> "Fifth, the great apostasy cannot be something in the distant future from the perspective of teh apostle, because he said that "the mystery of lwlessness: which causes this apostasy was laready at work inhis day (2Thess. 2:7-9, and see 1 John 2:18,22, and 4:3).



All to say, we have to be realistic (and very careful) in assessing the context of our time (goes for all of us), lest we overreach. That doesn't mean we ignore the bad we see working around us (and in ourselves), but it means we are humble in assessing it in terms of the purposes and plan of a sovereign Creator, whose ways are not our ways.

And whose ways are far, far above ours.

Blessings.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Scott, as I said in post 18 above,
I am answering according to the OP, and don’t wish to start a debate on this in relation to the other views – another thread can be for that, and I probably won’t participate as I’m busy packing to head back to the U.S., after 9 years away.​Surely you must know that the view you are propounding – despite G.I. Williamson’s “call me either optimistic amillennialist or non-utopian postmillennialist” – is not classic amillennialism. Okay, in earlier times the amil view used to be subsumed within the postmil camp, but the terminology has changed and become much more specific with the development of current amil and postmil teaching. Amil is not postmil, and G.I.’s “optimistic amillennialist” is far from current Reformed Amillennialism. When I use the term Reformed Amillennialism I think of these authors, G.K. Beale, William Hendriksen, Kim Riddlebarger, Dennis E. Johnson, Arturo Azurdia, David Engelsma, Vern Poythress, Sam Waldron, etc. Williamson’s preterist approach excludes him from this camp from the start. See his, A Study of New Testament Eschatology, for example.

It’s not that I’m not up to discussing our respective views – that could be edifying – but that, as per my caveat entering this thread, I desire at this point only to answer the OP, which precludes engaging G.I.’s (and apparently your) postmil preterist position despite his calling it “optimistic” amil. I just don’t have the time (I give a lot of time and research when I write), and why should this thread be diverted from its focus anyway?


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## Peairtach

*Steve*


> It’s not that I’m not up to discussing our respective views – that could be edifying – but that, as per my caveat entering this thread, I desire at this point only to answer the OP, which precludes engaging G.I.’s (and apparently your) postmil preterist position despite his calling it “optimistic” amil. I just don’t have the time (I give a lot of time and research when I write), and why should this thread be diverted from its focus anyway?



I'll maybe start a thread on whether certain things - which haven't yet happened - have to happen before the final apostasy.


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## seajayrice

Welcome home Steve, although I am afraid you will miss the weather and maybe more. I enjoy your pithy eschatological observation and largely agree with your assessment. Truly, we are in the last days.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Richard, that would be interesting!

Thanks, CJ


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## Gage Browning

Richard Tallach said:


> Whole nations _as nations_ have been deceived and are being deceived.
> 
> The elect are not deceived, at least after their conversion.


 
Hey Richard,
Based on your comment, I'm curious how do you square Matt: 24:21-24 with your idea of the elect not being deceived...
Matt 24:21-24 "For then there will be great suffering 29 unlike anything that has happened 30 from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and* wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect*."


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## Peairtach

> wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."



Well it says that the elect aren't deceived, even by these very cogent signs and wonders.

Of course the elect can be deceived, look at e.g. David and Solomon, but not in such a way as to lose their eternal salvation.

I believe that Matthew 24:4-35 has primary reference to Christ's coming in judgment on Jerusalem in His providence in AD 70.



> Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matt 24:23-27, ESV)



Christ is here saying that He is not coming back in AD 70, because when He comes back in His Second Advent He will be seen by all like the lightning is seen. See e.g. Marcellus Kik, "An Eschatology of Victory" (Pand R).


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## Gage Browning

Richard Tallach said:


> Of course the elect can be deceived, look at e.g. David and Solomon, but not in such a way as to lose their eternal salvation.



Thanks for the clarification Richard.


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## Peairtach

Some also indicate that Matthew 24:22, may indicate that the slaughter of the Jews in AD 70 was cut short in order to provide a number of Jews from whom a remnant could be saved.

But we know from Eusebius, that at a certain stage the Christians in Jerusalem - most (or all) who were Jewish - fled to Pella. So I assume the word "elect" in Matthew 24:22 doesn't refer to a proportion of Jews, but to the Christians that fled to Pella.

They had this warning from the Lord:



> When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ( Matt 24:15-16, KJV)



I don't know if the part in parenthesis "whoso readeth let him understand" was spoken by our Lord or placed there by Matthew under inspiration.

The "abomination of desolation" is expanded on by Luke:



> And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (Luke 21:20-21)


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## lynnie

Blade- sorry to not reply sooner but I wanted to read the Babylon thread and all the links first. I never finished entirely but it is interesting and persuasive. I thought 9-11 was prophetic of what is to come- in one hour a center of global trade in ruins.

I think I've ended up that we will know Satan is unloosed when we see the man of lawlessness emerge with lying signs and wonders. I hope it isn't soon, but I can picture it happening within even a few years.


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## Gage Browning

You know this thread got me to thinking: one of the things that helped move me out of dispensationalism, and a literalism approach to the Bible, was whether or not Satan was bound with "Spiritual Chains" or "Material Chains"...


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## Skyler

lynnie said:


> I think I've ended up that we will know Satan is unloosed when we see the man of lawlessness emerge with lying signs and wonders. I hope it isn't soon, but I can picture it happening within even a few years.



Humanism comes to mind.


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## Jerusalem Blade

I suppose a pertinent question regarding the OP – whether or not Satan has been loosed yet from his [spiritual] chains – is _how long_ the deception of the nations by Satan which commenced under the sixth bowl (or vial) would take: 

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. . . And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon (Rev 16:13, 14, 16).​
In Rev 20: we see another view of that “going forth”:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea (Rev 20:7, 8).​
How long will this process of deception take? Could it take decades? Half a century? Even this latter could be “a little season” compared to the twenty or so centuries he was bound. What would be involved in the “deceiving of the nations”? Two things basically, the utter delegitimizing of the Christian faith, and engendering a murderous hatred of Christians and the church. Given that there is a satanic power energizing the deception and working in the minds and hearts of unregenerate men and women, these dastardly goals _will_ be accomplished. That the purpose of the final deception is the eradication of the church, note what is written:

And they [Gog and Magog / the nations] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Rev 20:9).​
This is John’s way of typifying the people of God world-wide, and the universal attack upon them.

Also, it might be reckoned that the sorceries of Babylon, by which “all nations were deceived” (Rev 18:23), plays a great part in this. In post 25 above (of this thread) I reference two studies of Babylon in this respect, with links to them.

I frankly don’t know the time frame for the deception to fully take hold. Yes the “mystery of iniquity” was already working back when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians, but it was restrained (2 Thess 2:7). Is the ending of that restraint related to the loosing of Satan? And is the strong delusion which shall take all those “who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (vv. 9-12) related to the deception of the nations in Revelation?

As Richard posited, are there things which must come before the final apostasy? May this great and last falling away be a long process – the undermining of the authority of Scripture, streams of false doctrine within the church undermining the foundations of many, false experiences of “the Spirit” – which will be capitalized on by an individual called by Paul “the man of sin [or lawlessness]”, and who shall fulfill the “falling away” of 2 Thess 2:3? I don’t think anything else is necessary for that to come about. Yes, the deception and apostatizing has been going on throughout the church age, but at the end both will be massive, as will the beginnings of that persecution which shall cause many to say, “Forget _this!_ I didn’t bargain for _this_ kind of grief!”

As the “abomination of desolation” of Matthew 24 was mentioned above, I’d like to enter this view from Kim Riddlebarger on “Prophetic Perspective and the Abomination of Desolation”, in his book, _The Man of Sin_. I post this as a brief antidote to preterist views, such as G.I Williamson’s mentioned above. To engage G.I.’s view fully would be a substantial Project, and I have no time for Projects at present – it is all I can do to get packed, and maintain my duties in the church till I am relieved.

And since Matthew 24 is being brought up, here is a post as regards understanding the word “generations” in Matthew 24:34, which often comes up in these discussions.

But remember, this thread – ultimately and essentially – is about Rev 20’s binding and loosing of Satan. It is important to stay focused, and not wander to the four winds!


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I post this as a brief antidote to preterist views, such as G.I Williamson’s mentioned above. To engage G.I.’s view fully would be a substantial Project, and I have no time for Projects at present – it is all I can do to get packed, and maintain my duties in the church till I am relieved.



Not aware of any evidence the esteemed author is what is called "preterist" or considers himself that at all.

What is your basis for claiming that?


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## Peairtach

*Quote from Steve*


> I suppose a pertinent question regarding the OP – whether or not Satan has been loosed yet from his [spiritual] chains – is how long the deception of the nations by Satan which commenced under the sixth bowl (or vial) would take:
> 
> And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. . . And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon (Rev 16:13, 14, 16).
> 
> In Rev 20: we see another view of that “going forth”:
> 
> And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea (Rev 20:7, 8).
> 
> How long will this process of deception take? Could it take decades? Half a century? Even this latter could be “a little season” compared to the twenty or so centuries he was bound. What would be involved in the “deceiving of the nations”? Two things basically, the utter delegitimizing of the Christian faith, and engendering a murderous hatred of Christians and the church. Given that there is a satanic power energizing the deception and working in the minds and hearts of unregenerate men and women, these dastardly goals will be accomplished. That the purpose of the final deception is the eradication of the church, note what is written:
> 
> And they [Gog and Magog / the nations] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Rev 20:9).
> 
> This is John’s way of typifying the people of God world-wide, and the universal attack upon them.



Yes. Your version of amillennialism seems to identify the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19) and the Gog and Magog attack(Revelation 20) as being the same thing. This would merit another thread, but is this the standard position among the amillennial expositors e.g. Beale, Hendriksen, Riddlebarger?


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## Jerusalem Blade

Scott, in post 36 I gave a link to G.I.’s booklet, _A Study of New Testament Eschatology_, which is posted on preteristsite.com. Why don’t you start another thread if you wish to pursue this diversion?

Yes, Richard, I believe it is “the standard position among the amillennial expositors”. Feel free to do other threads, it’s just weird that answering a very focused question in the OP gives rise to all these extraneous issues, which are not related, save to those who wish to dispute the position underlying the OP’s question.


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## Scott1

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Why don’t you start another thread if you wish to pursue this diversion?





Jerusalem Blade said:


> Scott, in post 36 I gave a link to G.I.’s booklet, A Study of New Testament Eschatology, which is posted on preteristsite.com. Why don’t you start another thread if you wish to pursue this diversion?



Not intending to debate "preterism," only your post brought that up.

We would know that just because a web site with a certain name references one work of an author, does not make the author a "preterist," as has been asserted.

"Preterism" is serious error, and there is not sufficient evidence to assert that the esteemed author is of that view.

The esteemed author does not represent himself as "preterist," and as you imply, even if he did, his public position is not really even related to the points being made.


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## MW

thistle93 said:


> Hi! Does Amillenialism believe that Satan is currently bound as described in Rev 20:2 or does it believe that it is currently the time that Satan is released from the pit for a short time as described in Rev 20:7, before he is cast into lake of fire? Or are both positions promoted by various theologians? If so, which position is most predominant?


 
All idealists maintain that the 1000 years is qualitative, not quantitative, and that it describes the perfect quality of the period between the ascension of Christ and His second coming. Regrettably, some idealists then suppose the loosing of Satan follows after this perfect period of time, and posit an end time Armageddon. But such a supposition contradicts their view that the 1000 years is qualitative rather than quantitative. A consistent idealist approach would insist that the loosing of Satan is in fact descriptive of the activity of Satan in the same period of time but looked at from another perspective. From one point of view Satan is bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. From another point of view he is active in stirring up the nations to prepare for the war of the ages.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Scott, that’s the trouble with the designation “preterist” – it can mean anything from full preterist to partial, and those in various degrees. Nor did I say that of G.I. because of the site his work was on, but because in the work he says that the prophecy of the Olivet discourse in Matt 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem exclusively, and is not applicable to end times events. Years ago G.I. had given me the booklet in hardcopy. Sorry if I sounded like I was saying he is in the heretical camp. I wouldn’t malign him, especially as he is a friend.


Hello Matthew! So we meet here again on this turf; I remember that last time we opted to call it a draw (http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/undecided-particular-view-eschatology-58793/). I’d rather not repeat that discussion here, but suffice it to say that I don’t think it accurate to assert that the thousand years is _only_ qualitative, for it does refer to a distinct time-period, that being the ascension of Christ till the unloosing of Satan, preparatory to the deceiving and gathering of the nations to battle against the people of God, which is to battle against God Himself. 

I don’t quite understand your view. Are you saying that Armageddon is an age-long event, rather than a climactic one at the end? And that Satan is simultaneously both bound and loosed, depending on how one looks at it?

I hold that the view I posit represents the consistent idealist / amillennial, and I don’t know what I would call yours!

Consistent idealists / amillennialists (in the world that _I_ live in) hold that the thousand years is qualitative in the sense that it describes the _full_ period of Christ’s reign from the heavens while the devil remains bound – much as Psalm 50:10’s “cattle upon a thousand hills” refers to _all_ the hills and _all the world_ – and at the same time it is quantitative in that a distinct, _actual_ period of time is meant. We hold that the end of the time period inaugurates a phase of time during which the Lord uses the malevolence of the loosed devil to gather His enemies to battle. This fiery trial will purify the church as gold is purified. True, this purification has been going on throughout the ages, but at the end it will affect the _universal_ church.


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I don’t quite understand your view. Are you saying that Armageddon is an age-long event, rather than a climactic one at the end? And that Satan is simultaneously both bound and loosed, depending on how one looks at it?
> 
> I hold that the view I posit represents the consistent idealist / amillennial, and I don’t know what I would call yours!



Recapitulation is an accepted art of narrative. It relates successively things that occur side by side. Idealists already appeal to it in order to show that chapter 20 is not sequential to the Advent of chapter 19. That it is required in this place has already been explained by reference to the perfect quality of the number 1000. It is also required by the fact that in the parallelism of the visions of Revelation there must be a counterpart to the activity of Satan through the ages. To suggest that there is to be a subsequent period in which Christ does not reign with the saints or that the gospel does not continue to reap its harvest prior to His return is not consistent with biblical eschatology or the idealist scheme.

The well respected idealist commentator on Revelation, William Milligan, might help give clarity to the point:



> Thus also we may comprehend what is meant by the loosing of Satan. There is no point in the future at which he is to be loosed. He has been already loosed. Hardly was he completely conquered for the saints before he was loosed for the world. He was loosed as a great adversary who, however he may persecute the children of God, cannot touch their inner life, and who can only "deceive the nations,"—the nations that have despised and rejected Christ. He has never been really absent from the earth. He has gone about continually, "knowing that he hath but a short time." But he is unable to hurt those who are kept in the hollow of the Lord’s hand. No doubt he tries it. That is the meaning of the description extending from the seventh to the ninth verse of this chapter, -the meaning of the war which Satan carries on against the camp of the saints and the beloved city when the thousand years are finished. In other words, no sooner was Satan, as regards the saints, completely bound than, as regards the world, he was loosed; and from that hour, through all the past history of Christianity, he has been stirring up the world against the Church: he has been summoning the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war. They war, but they do not conquer, until at last fire comes down out of heaven and devours them. "The devil that deceived them is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
> 
> The whole picture of the thousand years is in its main features—in the binding of Satan, in the security and blessedness of the righteous, and in the loosing of Satan for the war—a striking parallel to the scenes in chap. 12 of this book. There Michael and his angels contended with the deviland his angels; and the latter "prevailed not," but were cast out of heaven into the earth, so that the inhabitants of heaven are for ever safe from them. There the man-child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and from the thought of whom it is impossible to separate the thought of those who are one with Him, is caught up unto God and unto His throne. Finally, there also the dragon, though unable really to hurt the saints, "the rest of the woman’s seed," makes war upon them, but without result. Of this scene the picture which we have been considering is at once a repetition and a fuller development; and, when we call to mind the peculiarities marking the structure of the Apocalypse, we seem in this fact alone to have no slight evidence of the correctness of the interpretation now proposed.


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## lynnie

Riddlebarger would agree with the parallelism, but even he has a final unloosing and war. I don't see any problem with that if you hold to a literal final second coming of Jesus too.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Very interesting, your quote from Milligan, Matthew. I’ve downloaded a pdf version of his book and will be looking it over.

I see now there are radically differing camps in the idealist sector. I was not familiar with Milligan. Recapitulation, or as Hendriksen calls it, parallelism – “progressive parallelism”, actually – is common to all the idealist / amillennialist views. In a nutshell, that being that the several sections of Revelation – Hendriksen lists seven – all “are parallel and each spans the entire new dispensation, from the first to the second coming of Christ.” (_More Than Conquerors_, p. 22)

He then says, “The seven sections of the Apocalypse are arranged in an ascending, climactic order. There is progress in eschatological emphasis. The final judgment is first _announced_, then _introduced_ and finally _described_. Similarly, the new heaven and earth are described more fully in the final section than in those which precede it.” (Ibid., p. 36)

This parallelism or recapitulation does not preclude progress in the content of the visions, or perhaps _growing intensity_ toward the end of the Christian dispensation leading to the final climactic and cataclysmic rebellion and divine judgment on it, after which we see the reward of the faithful in its fullest depiction, although it has been pictured all through the book.

I don’t really see where your view differs from postmillennialism, Matthew. You may talk about “optimistic amillennialism” but I don’t see it.

It seems Milligan was a pioneer in the modern idealist view, but the amillennialists / idealists of more recent times – Beale, Hendriksen, Poythress, D.E. Johnson, Riddlebarger, etc – have a more nuanced understanding, and, to my thinking, greater fidelity to the Biblical data.

To be continued – bedtime for me now!

(Pardon me, please, if I don’t answer quickly, as I’m preparing to pack for my move, and can’t – for now – devote as much time as I’d _love_ to do (this being so important a topic.)


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I don’t really see where your view differs from postmillennialism, Matthew. You may talk about “optimistic amillennialism” but I don’t see it.


 
For one, there is no future millennium. That millennium is now. To take an example from Scottish history -- Christ is reigning when the nation is entering into covenant with God and He is still reigning when the nation is shedding the blood of faithful martyrs thirty years later. For another, the consistent idealist view gives greater exegetical weight to the antithesis, or parallel intensification of good and evil. See, for example, Hoekema's Bible and the Future, p. 180. Your interpretation requires a successive antithesis whereas the consistent idealist has underlined the fact that it is parallel in history.

Concerning optimism in the realised millennium approach, the optimism is in the Scripture itself. It is important to let the Scripture speak and not to allow one's own pessimism to dampen the spirits of fellow workmen.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Okay, I read p. 180 in Hoekema’s book, and I’ll have to clear you of the postmil charge! Though it does seem to me you hold to a major postmil distinctive, that being in the scales the antithesis will tip in the favor of good heavily outweighing the evil, the nations becoming increasingly “Christianized” as you call it.

I notice also in Hoekema’s _The Bible and the Future_ – on that very page 180! – he says, “The New Testament gives indications of the continuing strength of that ‘kingdom of evil’ until the end of the world when it speaks about the great tribulation, the final apostasy, and the appearance of a personal antichrist. To suppose, therefore, that before Christ’s return evil ‘will be reduced to negligible proportions’ would seem to be a romantic oversimplification of history not warranted by the biblical data.”

On page 174 he says, “[The amillennialist] also looks for an intensified form of tribulation and apostasy as well as for the appearance of a personal antichrist before the Second Coming.”

When you talk, Matthew, about “the antithesis, or parallel intensification of good and evil”, I would agree, but this certainly does not necessarily mean that in the world – that is, _according to the appearance_ – the intensification of good will be _seen_ to overcome the evil. When Paul says,

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us (Rom 8:36, 37)​
his optimism shines glorious even in the supposed darkness of tribulation and death! So, to see persecution mounting toward the end is not “pessimistic” at all. We do not see our Lord’s death through “pessimistic” eyes (though the disciples did, initially), though it was a terrible death, and to appearances did look bad. It was in truth God’s glorious victory, and the salvation of His people.

When Milligan says, “Thus also we may comprehend what is meant by the loosing of Satan. There is no point in the future at which he is to be loosed. He has been already loosed &etc”, there is _some_ truth in this, as we know Satan is loosed to the extent of being able to persecute the saints and deceive the ungodly, but Milligan negates a loosing “when the thousand years are expired” (Rev 20:7), and a massive summoning of the nations / Gog and Magog through deception “to battle” (v. 8) the camp of the saints and their God (v. 9), when the Son of God shall return and destroy them. Perhaps this is where the old saw about the amils “spiritualizing” too many things came from! But he illegitimately (erroneously) spiritualizes things we legitimately discern to be symbolic, and interpret rightly. Yet he is more on the money than the post or pre mils.

The view I posit in no way negates the concept of recapitulation (parallelism), it but views it slightly differently.

While one thousand is indeed a number of perfection, it need not preclude a subsequent “little season” in which the Lord shall execute vengeance upon the attackers of His people, in one final display of the glory of His majesty and might to the world.

You stated,

To suggest that there is to be a subsequent period in which Christ does not reign with the saints or that the gospel does not continue to reap its harvest prior to His return is not consistent with biblical eschatology or the idealist scheme.​
When the Lord returns “to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God” (Rev 19:14) He indeed still reigns with His saints, but the time of the gospel harvest is finished. It is the day of vengeance long cried for by martyrs (Rev 6:10), and shown in the remainder of that chapter.


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> When the Lord returns “to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God” (Rev 19:14) He indeed still reigns with His saints, but the time of the gospel harvest is finished. It is the day of vengeance long cried for by martyrs (Rev 6:10), and shown in the remainder of that chapter.


 
According to your scheme the Lord returns after the loosing of Satan and the gathering of the nations to war against the saints, and this loosing is after the 1000 years. You thus have a period of earthly history in which the Lord is not reigning with the saints and the gospel is not reaping its harvest, that is, a period subsequent to the millennium of vv. 1-6. Like the premillennialist you have created a black hole in the continuum of biblical eschatology.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Matthew, you keep asserting – without substantiation, it seems to me – that when the Lord goes forth to war in the final cataclysm He no longer reigns. Of course He reigns, and that even when He is subduing all his enemies. He reigned before the thousand years, and He reigns after (we view that period differently). He reigns eternally. When the last of the elect is called and brought into the fold the reaping of the gospel harvest is over. There is an end to the day of grace through the gospel, and a beginning of the day of vengeance. I do not accept your imposing the thousand years in the manner you do upon the idealist / amillennialist view of the more recent commentators, for it is not valid. There is no “black hole in the continuum of biblical eschatology” in reality, only according to your view, which I do not acknowledge.

Matthew, can we wind this down? I’m in the process of moving. What say we each have one more post? You may go last if you wish.


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## ryanhamre

Richard Tallach said:


> Well it says that the elect aren't deceived, even by these very cogent signs and wonders.
> 
> Of course the elect can be deceived, look at e.g. David and Solomon, but not in such a way as to lose their eternal salvation.



Can you clarify your statement? At the surface, it seems to come in conflict with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

2 Thessalonians 2:8–12

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​
God bless.


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## Peairtach

ryanhamre said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well it says that the elect aren't deceived, even by these very cogent signs and wonders.
> 
> Of course the elect can be deceived, look at e.g. David and Solomon, but not in such a way as to lose their eternal salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you clarify your statement? At the surface, it seems to come in conflict with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 2:8–12
> 
> Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​
> God bless.
Click to expand...


I don't see where the Thessalonians passage says that the elect can be deceived in such a way as to lose their salvation. The elect can be deceived alright - before they're converted, and even after, but not in such a way as to lose their salvation.

Our Lord in the Olivet Discourse is talking hypothetically when he says "_if it were possible_ would deceive the elect" . It isn't possible but He does express the strength of the temptation/delusion in this way.



> the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.



The ones mentioned in the above quote aren't the elect.

I tend to believe that the Man of Sin in II Thessalonians is the papacy. The errors which developed into the papacy and Romanism were present in seed form in the Apostle's day, as he indicates regarding the Man of Sin. The papacy is a parody of Christ (Antichrist), which has made use of lying signs and wonders, which is very deceptive, which has done more damage to souls than a "Personal Antichrist" will ever do to bodies - for a little time - at the end of history. He has also done some damage to bodies.

The Papacy won't last to the end of time.


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## ryanhamre

Thank you for your reply, you cleared it up for me 

God bless.


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Matthew, you keep asserting – without substantiation, it seems to me – that when the Lord goes forth to war in the final cataclysm He no longer reigns. Of course He reigns, and that even when He is subduing all his enemies. He reigned before the thousand years, and He reigns after (we view that period differently). He reigns eternally. When the last of the elect is called and brought into the fold the reaping of the gospel harvest is over. There is an end to the day of grace through the gospel, and a beginning of the day of vengeance. I do not accept your imposing the thousand years in the manner you do upon the idealist / amillennialist view of the more recent commentators, for it is not valid. There is no “black hole in the continuum of biblical eschatology” in reality, only according to your view, which I do not acknowledge.


 
Brother Steve, amillennialism is realised millennialism. The millennium of Rev. 20 is a reality now. It is a reality since Christ Himself bound Satan through His own redemptive work. The conditions described in Rev. 20 are reflective of His state of exaltation. Now, if, according to the theory of an end time battle, the 1000 years literally ends -- that is, the battle literally eventuates after the 1000 years -- then the millennium ends, the conditions described in Rev. 20:1-6 are changed at a subsequent period of this earth's history. If, on the other hand, you are going to insist that nothing changes, then you are really just committing yourself to the view that the 1000 years and the end time battle of Rev. 20 are actually parallel with each other. If this discussion has brought you to the point where you feel disgusted at the very thought that the work of Christ in ushering the 1000 years can somehow be reversed or diminished, then this discussion has served a useful purpose, and I trust that more reflective study on your part will eventually lead you to see the full validity and consistency of Milligan's parallel interpretation. Blessings!


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## TeachingTulip

armourbearer said:


> Brother Steve, amillennialism is realised millennialism.



Not so. Amillennialism is denial of a literal (chiliaistic) millennialism, in any form.


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## MW

TeachingTulip said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brother Steve, amillennialism is realised millennialism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. Amillennialism is denial of a literal (chiliaistic) millennialism, in any form.
Click to expand...

 
Anthony Hoekema (The Bible and the Future, p. 173):



> Jay E. Adams, in his book The Time is at Hand, has suggested that the term amillennialism be replaced by the expression realized millennialism. The latter term, to be sure, describes the 'amillennial' position more accurately than the usual term, since 'amillennialists' believe that the millennium of Revelation 20 is not exclusively future but is now in process of realization.



Amillennialism is built on the foundation of inaugurated eschatology, a subject well developed in Hoekema's book. If one's interpretation of eschatology at any time ventures to undo that which has been inaugurated by the coming of Christ I would suggest that it is unworthy of the name "amillennialism" or at least morphs it into something other than it is.


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## TeachingTulip

armourbearer said:


> If one's interpretation of eschatology at any time ventures to undo that which has been inaugurated by the coming of Christ



The Amil view certainly does not "undo that which has been inaugurated by the coming of Christ." 

The Amil view simply denies a literal 1000 year reign after the second coming of Christ. 




> I would suggest that it is unworthy of the name "amillennialism" or at least morphs it into something other than it is.



God alone knows what you are talking about . . .


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## MW

TeachingTulip said:


> The Amil view simply denies a literal 1000 year reign after the second coming of Christ.


 
If one wants to rest on a simplified understanding of what amillennialism teaches, and is not interested in considering what amillennialist authors like Adams and Hoekema have taught, that is one's prerogative ... and one's loss.


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## TeachingTulip

armourbearer said:


> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Amil view simply denies a literal 1000 year reign after the second coming of Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If one wants to rest on a simplified understanding of what amillennialism teaches, and is not interested in considering what amillennialist authors like Adams and Hoekema have taught, that is one's prerogative ... and one's loss.
Click to expand...


And if one wants to redefine Amillennialism (by advocating a Postmillennial view) , so let him.

Does not mean Amils need to follow him in his erroneous views . . .


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## MW

TeachingTulip said:


> And if one wants to redefine Amillennialism (by advocating a Postmillennial view) , so let him.
> 
> Does not mean Amils need to follow him in his erroneous views . . .


 
That claim was made above, answered by me, and retracted by the person making the claim. If you would like to further discussion and make a new claim then you will need to back it up with reasons which give me the opportunity to respond. Your claim, as it stands, contains nothing to substantiate it. One of the impoverishments of resting on a simplified understanding of things is that it leaves one without the know-how to give substance to one's truth claims.


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## TeachingTulip

armourbearer said:


> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if one wants to redefine Amillennialism (by advocating a Postmillennial view) , so let him.
> 
> Does not mean Amils need to follow him in his erroneous views . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That claim was made above, answered by me, and retracted by the person making the claim. If you would like to further discussion and make a new claim then you will need to back it up with reasons which give me the opportunity to respond. Your claim, as it stands, contains nothing to substantiate it. One of the impoverishments of resting on a simplified understanding of things is that it leaves one without the know-how to give substance to one's truth claims.
Click to expand...


I made no claim, other than I would not follow your erroneous views.


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## MW

TeachingTulip said:


> I made no claim, other than I would not follow your erroneous views.


 
"Erroneous views" is a claim. Redefining amillennialism is a claim. Advocating a postmillennial view is a claim. To date I have substantiated my statement with reference to amillennial authors. You have chosen to retain your simplified understanding and to ignore those authors. Fair enough. But please do not impose a naive dogmatism on what to date has been a reasonable and edifying discussion.


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## Scott1

By way of information only.



> _A Case for Amillennialism_, Kim Riddlebarger, p. 31
> 
> My own position is Reformed amillennialism, which can also be called "present" or "realized" millennialism. Reformed eschatology argues for a present millennial age manifest in the present reign of Jesus Christ in heaven.


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## discipulo

TeachingTulip said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if one wants to redefine Amillennialism (by advocating a Postmillennial view) , so let him.
> 
> Does not mean Amils need to follow him in his erroneous views . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That claim was made above, answered by me, and retracted by the person making the claim. If you would like to further discussion and make a new claim then you will need to back it up with reasons which give me the opportunity to respond. Your claim, as it stands, contains nothing to substantiate it. One of the impoverishments of resting on a simplified understanding of things is that it leaves one without the know-how to give substance to one's truth claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I made no claim, other than I would not follow your erroneous views.
Click to expand...




Rhonda, I don’t want to interrupt your dialogue, but sometimes it helps to have someone on the other ear telling us also but in other ways, what we might need to hear.

Believe me, I was exactly in your shoes already. Not in a forum, it may be harder this way I know, but at home, reading. How about that?

Yes, I was also taken off guard the 1st time I realized, by reading

The Promise of the Future by Cornelis P. Venema 

(arguably even a better manual of Eschatology than Hoekema) 

that Ammilenialism is the true Millenialism! And in that sense Ammilenialism is not the better term to coin our eschatological view.

As I read it back then from Venema, I also had the same reaction as you, I sensed my categories confronted, I was patient, I gave it a thought and then it made complete sense.

Like Rev, Winzer said, Ammilenialism in fact, is truly realized Millenialism.

As you, I used to think that Millennialism was only a term applicable to the chiliastic approach of reading Rev 20 as actually being a period of 1000 years. And because of all that is going on with the pre-mill noise around us, in a sense we understand and we made ourselves understood easier when we say that we are Amill.

As you know, Dispensationalism turns Redemptive History into a succession of incoherent unrelated tupperwares, the millennium being one of those little boxes, very useful to the fridge, but nasty to understand Scripture in its Unity and Perspicuity.

Because Amills, and I surely count myself as one, don’t postpone the Kingdom and the Millennium to the second coming of Christ, we can truly claim that we are the ones taking seriously into account the Revelation that the millennium was already inaugurated as our Lord ascended to Reign at the right Hand of the Father.

You may enjoy reading:

Revelation 20: Part II - The millennium is Now by Cornelis P. Venema

Revelation 20: Part II - The millennium is Now


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## Peairtach

I'm sure amillennialism is not incompatible with the progress of the Church on Earth, as well as in Heaven. E.g. there are more Christians in the world today than in A.D. 33 are there not?

Postmils don't posit a perfect world before the Second Advent.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Ronda, thanks for your support. Rev. Winzer is right when he says his view is called “realized millennialism” – a phrase coined, I believe, by Jay E. Adams in his book, _The Time Is At Hand_ – and refers to the present (realized in our own times, and through all the church age) reign of the Lord Jesus over the nations along with His martyred saints during the symbolic thousand years of Revelation 20. I think what confused you was the strangeness of Rev. Winzer’s view and his calling it by the same name modern amillennialists use, although his view is very different from what is _generally_ called amillennialism / realized millennialism in these days.

It’s an older form of idealism (another term for describing millennialism) no longer current among amil scholars. I’ll be studying its (apparently) main proponent, William Milligan, to get a better idea of it.

César, thanks for that Venema excerpt!

You will own, Matthew (or so I think), that your / Milligan’s view of the thousand years is markedly different from what is held by contemporary amil teachers. When you say “the 1000 years and the end time battle of Rev. 20 are actually parallel with each other” you may not properly be accused of being _novel_ as Milligan’s view does antedate the modern views, but you are certainly not in the mainstream of interpretation. And yet you speak to me as though you were and those who differ are all off the wall exegetically!

I’m surely not one to say – out of hand – that the new is better than the old, else I would not champion the superiority of the old English version of the Bible, but in this case, regarding our respective eschatologies, having weighed them, I must assert the new is better. I will, however, consider Milligan, if only to know my opponents.

Dennis Johnson wrote,
“Just as the vision genre sometimes compresses vast historical eons into symbolic images that pass like the twinkling of an eye (see Rev.12:1-5, which spans redemptive history from Genesis 3 to Acts 1), so also a split-second in time may be expanded in visionary description and simultaneous climactic events presented as successive, in order to help hearers to see different facets of Christ’s victory.” –Dennis E. Johnson, _Triumph of the Lamb_, pp. 176​That to say one must be careful positing _any_ chronological sequences in the visions of Revelation! And yet I do, as one may note in my writings on Babylon, and I have explained the reasons for doing so.

It is understood – and expressed by Hendriksen and the others in his camp – that the visions of warning and judgment recapitulate numerous times in the Apocalypse, in fact the church age and its finale are repeatedly pictured in the multiple sections – from different angles – and toward the end of the book we see in more detail what is involved. We see that toward the end the warning blasts of the trumpets intensify, as also do the judgments.

Earlier I stated that more Christians have been killed (for being Christians) in this and the last century than in all the previous centuries of the church age combined. It was retorted that there are more Christians now than in all the past centuries, and I think that illustrates the increasing intensity. Indeed, there _are_ more Christians now than ever, as the power of God in calling His elect out of the nations is loosed by the witness of His churches – even in murderously hostile lands – and the Spirit-empowered witness of His missionaries across the globe. The Lord is active in the ends of the earth to call His people to Himself. And at the same time the hatred of Satan through _his_ children is manifest against the saints. Things are moving on to a climax. The power of good and the power of evil are both waxing greater, exponentially so.

So, yes, there is a battle all through the ages of the church. There are warnings and judgments also. But the Scripture is clear that at the end of this age there will be a final intensification of this conflict. I have written above concerning Rev 16, and 19, and 20 and this _final_ conflict, this last blow of the dark powers against the saints, and the Lord’s vengeance and ending of it. I just don’t buy the idea that it’s all melded together in one amorphous struggle of good and evil with no climactic denouement, as Rev. Winzer apparently holds. There _is_ a climactic denouement, and it is called Armageddon, and the battle of Gog and Magog. The Scripture specifically says – twice! – there is an end of the thousand years, and “a little season” after that where the enemies of the Lord are gathered for judgment. If one wants to say, “No, that’s just symbolic for continuing dynamics throughout the age”, we’ll just have to disagree, as the reading of this passage speaks explicitly of time sequences. I won’t spiritualize what is distinctly temporal in its import.

The work of Christ during the thousand years cannot be “reversed or diminished” as I am charged with asserting. Who can stay His hand!? The work of Christ during the thousand years will be fulfilled – all the gold will have been taken out of the ground – and the furnace of affliction in the little season will finish the purifying of it.

Nonetheless, Matthew, I will consider Milligan in the interim period, and at some point I will weigh in on him. Thanks for your graciousness in dealing with me.

When my wife and I are back in NYC we will be “homeless” for a while (though we’ll have an apt to stay in), and even computerless! – till I buy a small Macbook Air, so that we’re not completely unwired – and it may be some months before I’m settled and able to return here, in any substantial manner.

Back to the states. The land of trouble. But my people, and my church.


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## TeachingTulip

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Ronda, thanks for your support. Rev. Winzer is right when he says his view is called “realized millennialism” – a phrase coined, I believe, by Jay E. Adams in his book, _The Time Is At Hand_ – and refers to the present (realized in our own times, and through all the church age) reign of the Lord Jesus over the nations along with His martyred saints during the symbolic thousand years of Revelation 20. I think what confused you was the strangeness of Rev. Winzer’s view and his calling it by the same name modern amillennialists use, although his view is very different from what is _generally_ called amillennialism / realized millennialism in these days.
> 
> It’s an older form of idealism (another term for describing millennialism) no longer current among amil scholars. I’ll be studying its (apparently) main proponent, William Milligan, to get a better idea of it.



Thank you Pastor, for the clarification and assurance that I need not overreact to this terminology as I did. Sound correction and patient explanations are always appreciated!

BTW, so are book recommendations. I am presently reading Stuart Olyott's "Dare To Stand Alone." It is proving to be a good commentary on the Book of Daniel, as well as an encouraging devotional.


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Back to the states. The land of trouble. But my people, and my church.


 
Dear Steve, I pray the Lord grants you journeying mercies, and that you may prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.

Once you have settled in and had an opportunity to read Milligan I look forward to discussing the subject with you, knowing that by that time Milligan will have done all the hard work and you will be ready to stand on the side of the consistent amillennialist. 

Blessings!


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## Jerusalem Blade

Thanks, Matthew!


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## Tirian

armourbearer said:


> Jerusalem Blade said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the states. The land of trouble. But my people, and my church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Steve, I pray the Lord grants you journeying mercies, and that you may prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.
> 
> Once you have settled in and had an opportunity to read Milligan I look forward to discussing the subject with you, knowing that by that time Milligan will have done all the hard work and you will be ready to stand on the side of the consistent amillennialist.
> 
> Blessings!
Click to expand...


Pastor Winzer,

Though my brain frequently melts as I try to follow the details of this discussion I find myself identifying most closely with the position you are outlining.

In _simple_ terms, how would you describe the condition of the church and the world just prior to the return of Christ - what does it look like?

Warm regards,
Matt


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## MW

Matthew Glover said:


> In _simple_ terms, how would you describe the condition of the church and the world just prior to the return of Christ - what does it look like?


 
I wouldn't seek to describe "the times and the seasons," as they belong to the secret things of the Lord. As far as the church and her commission is concerned, the plenary power of the Lord Jesus Christ gives every encouragement to go into all the world and to teach so as to make disciples of all nations, Matthew 28:18-20. All the OT promises to Israel relative to the ingathering of the nations are the rightful inheritance of the Lord Jesus Christ, and this leads to hopeful expectation concerning the preaching of His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem, Luke 24:44-48. The apostle to the nations certainly went forth on the understanding that he should bear Christ's name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel, Acts 9:15, and did so for the hope of the promise made of God unto the fathers, Acts 26:6, and went forth with the confidence that God would open the eyes of the Gentiles, and turn them from the power of Satan unto God, verses 17, 18. As we survey the various places to which the apostle was sent, sometimes only "some" believe, as in Thessalonica, Acts 17:4; but in other places, like Berea, "many of them believed," verse 12. It is notable that whenever he speaks of the mission to the Gentiles he regards its prospect in the most glowing terms. He appropriates the OT promises that the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in, Romans 11:25. He does not immediately enlarge on this in chapter 11 because his main scope was to show God's faithfulness to His promise that all Israel shall be saved; but a little later he appeals to the OT as it refers to "all" the Gentiles, Romans 15:11, with the expectation that the Root of Jesse shall reign over the Gentiles, as a mass, and that they shall trust in Him, verse 12. Indeed, he sees the Gentiles as an offering to God made acceptable through Jesus Christ and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, verse 16. Again, in Ephesians, the same breadth of expectation pervades the apostle's thoughts. He understands the fulness of times to include a special dispensation in which God will gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, Eph. 1:10. In this work of reconciliation and unification the joining together of Jew and Gentile through the apostolic ministry is just the beginning; for the apostle envisages the work to keep growing unto an holy temple in the Lord, Eph. 2:22. Nothing less than a new creation is expected, in which the manifold wisdom of God might be known by the church unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places, Eph. 3:8-11.

In all of this we see that the lot of suffering and persecution which God apportions to the church in this world should never be permitted to dampen the spirits of faithful workmen. God is doing marvellous things. He is answering prayer by terrible things in righteousness. We should look up, expect great things from God, and attempt great things for God.

Blessings!


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## Scott1

While still considering this whole area of scripture, I'm pretty comfortable saying amillennialism, a realized millennium, acknowledges that good and evil will grow side-by-side, without the one ever completely overcoming the other, until our Lord's return.

From our perspective, as limited creatures, that will not always be clear to us in our own time, far less in history past.

Yet, it would seem to be the state of things in a fallen world, being redeemed by God's plan, until He returns as judge.


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## Peairtach

> While still considering this whole area of scripture, I'm pretty comfortable saying amillennialism, a realized millennium, acknowledges that good and evil will grow side-by-side, without the one ever completely overcoming the other, until our Lord's return.



Well I'm quite happy to say that beastly statist persecution (the Beast), antichristian and Antichristian teaching (the False Prophet), and the apostate Christian Church (Babylon) will be eliminated long before our Lord's Second Advent E.g. Revelation 18-19. Many Christians in the world already enjoy freedom from these things.

That doesn't mean an end to sin, tribulation or death.


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## Bill The Baptist

I think that the reason so many people have trouble believing that satan is currently bound is because they refuse to see that all of the death and evil in the world is really because of our own sin. It is much easier to blame bad things on the devil.


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## Notthemama1984




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