# Licentiate question



## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

If one has a licentiate status, are they still "under care" officially?

I realize a licentiate is still in a mentoring stage of the game, but what about official status?

BCO junkies please advice


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2011)

Being licensed is completely separate from being under care. Because most men go the route of being examined:
under care-> licensure-> ordination
many believe that licensure is a (necessary) intermediate step. It is not. Any man can be licensed (BCO 19-1), including a minister from another Presbytery.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

Then theoretically could a man become licensed and bypass the "under care?"


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## raekwon (Sep 19, 2011)

One can be licensed and not come under care, but that's not necessarily "bypassing" it. You still have to come under care if you are to be ordained, but one can be licensed with no intention of being ordained as a TE.

So... yes.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Then theoretically could a man become licensed and bypass the "under care?"


Yes, but in that sense, being licensed would not put a man any nearer to ordination. Normally, one must be under care of a Presbytery, complete an internship, and pass ordination exams. You don't need to be licensed to be ordained, but would need to have been under care (normally) and have completed an internship (always).


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## Covenant Joel (Sep 19, 2011)

As Fred mentions, being under care and being licensed are two separate things. At least in our presbytery, they're not run by the same committee. When I went under care of presbytery, that was through the Christian Education committee. That committee has a whole list of internship requirements that I have to do while I'm under care. When I go for licensure in January, that will be through the Credentials committee, as will the ordination exams in April. However, for ordination, the Credentials committee will ask for proof of my completed internship from the CE committee. So I will (d.v.) be licensed for about 3 months while I'm still under care. I assume other presbyteries have a similar process.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 19, 2011)

What is the significance or reason for being being licensed, particularly in cases where ordination (at least in the near future) as a TE is not in view? Being able to "preach" instead of "exhort"? When I was in the OPC, preaching by a man who was not a Teaching Elder, whether a man under care or an RE, was called exhorting instead of preaching. Licentiates are granted by the Presbytery, so I suppose that would be the difference, whereas a man under care who is not licensed is just that (although also accountable to Presbytery) and a RE is not examined by the Presbytery, at least that's not my recollection. (Although his teaching would ultimately be accountable to the Presbytery.) I have been aware of RE's who are licensed as well.

If he is not a TE, then he cannot administer the sacraments, in the Presbyterian understanding. Does being licensed (without an eye toward ordination as a TE) perhaps facilitate preaching in sister congregations who are without a pastor, etc, as it signifies that he has been examined and affirmed by the Presbytery? Or there any other benefits entailed in this privilege?

Is the examination perhaps not quite as thorough (or exacting) for a licentiate as compared to a TE? Is there a difference with regard to language requirements? (My recollection is that the answer is yes to both of the above, but that may differ depending on the denomination, etc.)

Of course I suppose I could do some work myself and check the various BCO's to get some answers to these questions.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 19, 2011)

I just glanced at the BoCO of the OPC, 2000 Edn. I know there has been at least one newer edition published, but I'd be surprised if this part has changed. 

If I read right, it appears that in the OPC there is no licensure process that is somehow separate from what one might call the "ordination track." It is considered a probationary period. (XXI.1) Under XXI.2 it states "Prior to licensure candidates shall be taken under care of a presbytery." With regard to education, a B.A. or its equivalent and at least a year and a half in seminary are required to be licensed. The offices of Evangelist and Teacher are mentioned, but presumably these are TE's, as some of the duties mentioned would necessarily entail that. 

I haven't looked at the PCA BCO, but from what has been stated above by other posters, it appears that there is some difference.


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## sdesocio (Sep 19, 2011)

It sometimes depends on your presbytery. We had a case where a man, was unsure of his call to fulltime ministry and wasnt an RE, but felt that preaching at a church that had invited him to be supply was part of discerning that call and we decided not to more forward but instead ask GA for advice, and they never gave any.


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 19, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> You don't need to be licensed to be ordained, but would need to have been under care (normally) and have completed an internship (always).


As someone who was ordained in Fred's former Presbytery (Ascension) here's my take:

A man must have completed ALL the trials for BOTH licensure AND ordination in anticipation of ordination in the PCA (and OPC)--because ordination assumes that the "lesser" standards applied to licentiates are met and superseded for ordination.

I was licensed in the OPC, and eventually ordained in the PCA (Ascension). And Neikerk and the others put me through their own licensing battery, even going so far as to vote to approve various prerequisites as having passed the requirements for "licensure," such as preaching a message before Presbytery (not something typically asked for from a man seeking ordination). And then they proceeded to complete the remaining exams for ordination on the floor of Presbytery (sacraments, theology); which were approved, setting up my ordination.

I'm not sure if that procedure qualified as *technically* becoming "licensed" in the PCA. Licensure as a "step" assumes a pause of some sort on the way to the final "stage" of ordination. Regardless, I did complete licensure requirements prior to completing my ordination exams.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2011)

Bruce,

You would think that Ascension was my former Presbytery, but actually it was Great Lakes!

In any event, I think the confusion about Licensure comes from the fact that ordination trials/exams *include* the same trials/exams for Licensure (English Bible, Theology, Church Government and preaching before Presbytery), but ordination has *additional* exams (Sacraments, Church History, Papers in Theology and Exegesis, and various academic requirements). That means that many men complete the "licensure" exams first, and are then not only licensed to preach, but also are "half way" to ordination. But that is not required. For example, when I came to Houston, I did not become licensed, but I took all the ordination exams at one time.


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 19, 2011)

Fred,
I should have remembered. Now they're all together, and none of them are Ascension. And the PCA up here is pretty much Michigan all by itself. In fact, the OPC and PCA presbyteries here almost overlap.


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