# Homosexuality: What Makes Someone Gay?



## N. Eshelman (May 28, 2010)

For the record: I am not doubting that homosexuality is sinful in thought, word, or deed. I am wondering if you all have thought about what makes someone prone to sinning in this way? 

Again- this is not a debate on whether homosexuality is sinful- but a discussion on why one's sin manifests in this way. 


Just wanting to see what you all think.


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## Tripel (May 28, 2010)

I voted combo. I think in most cases it's genetic, but I'm sure nurturing plays a substantial role some of the time.


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## DMcFadden (May 28, 2010)

I voted combo. But, most men I know are "genetically predisposed" to heterosexual sin too. Does environment interact with our genetic predisposition? Sure. So . . . yes, and.


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## Peairtach (May 28, 2010)

Same as what makes men sexually attracted to women apart from their wife if they have one: sin.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 28, 2010)

Both/and


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## TimV (May 28, 2010)

If it's primarily genetic then Biblical law is a form of eugenics. The more you apply God's law, the fewer homosexuals you will have. Is it the same for murder? Some aggression is genetic. Lots in fact. The McCoys of feud fame have a genetic disease of a glandular nature that causes uncontrollable anger.

Discuss.


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## Andres (May 28, 2010)

Nurture. Talk to a group of gays. I bet 90% of them experienced some kind of abuse as a child or they grew up without a male figure in the home. Another factor is something that made them resent the opposite sex so this is their way of "getting back" at them. This last one is a common theme with lesbians who are angry at men, whether it be daddy or ex-boyfriend.


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## raekwon (May 28, 2010)

I believe it's both/and as well, but really, why does it matter?

Another way this question can be asked is this -- does same-sex attraction alone make someone "gay" if that attraction is never acted upon? "Identity" is a big deal, and so many folks (of my generation and younger, especially) find/place their identity in the way they *feel*. It's important that we (while not discounting the value of feelings and motive) don't let that sort of argument rule the day.


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## Skyler (May 28, 2010)

I voted "mostly nurture" since I think nurture plays the most important part in determining whether or not someone becomes homosexual. There may be, and I think probably are, genetic factors as well, but I don't think their influence is as great as it is sometimes made out to be.


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (May 28, 2010)

I personally believe that it is mostly genetic. 

When Adam fell, every sin possible against God fell onto his shoulders as a result. The sin became part of his flesh. Since all of us are descendants of Adam, we all have the same sinful nature he did.

While most of us will not fall into homosexuality, it does not mean that we do not have the capability to do so.


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## Andres (May 28, 2010)

O'GodHowGreatThouArt said:


> I personally believe that it is mostly genetic.
> 
> When Adam fell, every sin possible against God fell onto his shoulders as a result. The sin became part of his flesh. Since all of us are descendants of Adam, we all have the same sinful nature he did.
> 
> While most of us will not fall into homosexuality, it does not mean that we do not have the capability to do so.


 
I wouldn't disagree that we have the capability to fall into all types of sin based upon your same reasoning (the fall and imputed sin) but doesn't there have to be something that makes people prone to certain sins and not others? For example, the sins that I struggle with the most, I feel like I can point exactly to issues growing up that I feel endeared me to them if that makes sense. Of course, this is not to say I above committing other sins. I guess what I am trying to say is why does a person struggle with some areas of sin more than others?


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## N. Eshelman (May 28, 2010)

raekwon said:


> I believe it's both/and as well, but really, why does it matter?
> 
> Another way this question can be asked is this -- does same-sex attraction alone make someone "gay" if that attraction is never acted upon? "Identity" is a big deal, and so many folks (of my generation and younger, especially) find/place their identity in the way they *feel*. It's important that we (while not discounting the value of feelings and motive) don't let that sort of argument rule the day.


 
I appreciate this question, but my question is this: How does one know he has gay attraction unless he has acted on it in the world of thought?


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## Andres (May 28, 2010)

raekwon said:


> I believe it's both/and as well, but really, why does it matter?
> 
> Another way this question can be asked is this -- does same-sex attraction alone make someone "gay" if that attraction is never acted upon? "Identity" is a big deal, and so many folks (of my generation and younger, especially) find/place their identity in the way they *feel*. It's important that we (while not discounting the value of feelings and motive) don't let that sort of argument rule the day.


 
I find several places in scripture where our Lord condemns people for their heart condition. (Matt 5:21-28) Jesus says they are condemned before they even act on their sinful thoughts/intentions.


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## DMcFadden (May 28, 2010)

One need not sin to register attraction to a woman. The tell-tale signs are present: increased respiration, quickened heart beat, the "Wow" reaction . . .

Committing adultery/fornication in one's mind would not seem to be prerequisite to knowing that you have an attraction. Practically speaking, I would guess that many homosexual men do "commit" indecent acts in their minds prior to acting on their attraction. However, awareness of attraction would precede sin.

The fact that we are prone to sin would not seem to require a "nurture" only aspect. Who cares why I want to sin? That a mistreated and abused child might grow up to become violent and one with a genetic predisposition to violence might have a difficult time controlling his temper does not matter to me when I'm driving down the freeway. Neither one has a right to run me off the road, regardless of whether the anger is due to nature or nurture.


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## JennyG (May 28, 2010)

If you ask me a lot of it is neither nature nor exactly nurture, but fashion. Just as anorexia barely existed a generation or so ago, or until it started getting massive media attention.
For half a century or more there's been a relentlessly growing cultural obsession with, and (crucially) media promotion of, all things gay, and - hey presto! they're everywhere


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## louis_jp (May 28, 2010)

Any gay man I ever talked to about the issue has said they were that way from their earliest memories. My uncle said that as a 6 or 7 year old, he would identify with the female lead in movies. They just knew they were different from a very early age. To me that indicates that nature plays a very big part. There simply isn't a whole lot of time for nurture to have an effect at that age.

As for why, I suppose that just as we have our positive gifts, and they differ from one to another, so we also have our own sin patterns.

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------




TimV said:


> If it's primarily genetic then Biblical law is a form of eugenics. The more you apply God's law, the fewer homosexuals you will have. Is it the same for murder? Some aggression is genetic. Lots in fact. The McCoys of feud fame have a genetic disease of a glandular nature that causes uncontrollable anger.
> 
> Discuss.


 
Thanks for blaming it on the McCoys. My daughter is married to a Hatfield.


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## ChristianTrader (May 28, 2010)

JennyG said:


> If you ask me a lot of it is neither nature nor exactly nurture, but fashion. Just as anorexia barely existed a generation or so ago, or until it started getting massive media attention.
> For half a century or more there's been a relentlessly growing cultural obsession with, and (crucially) media promotion of, all things gay, and - hey presto! they're everywhere


 
But doesn't this just push the question to, "What causes a cultural obsession with x, when it wasn't obsessed with x 50 years ago."

CT


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## JennyG (May 28, 2010)

ChristianTrader said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> > If you ask me a lot of it is neither nature nor exactly nurture, but fashion. Just as anorexia barely existed a generation or so ago, or until it started getting massive media attention.
> ...


 well, not genetics anyway..
evil fashions are caused (under God) by Satan. Popular sins tend to one form in one age, and another in a different age. At the moment we have a whole slew that cluster round the fashionable philosophies of secularism and human rights, and this is just one of them


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## Puritan Scot (May 28, 2010)

Homosexuality - or to use the correct term "Sodomy" is first an foremost a heinous SIN in the sight of God.

What exactly is SIN - "Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God" Shorter Catechism - Q14

None of us would disagree with the above, but to move on to Nathan's original question - "as to why one's sin manifests in this way". 

The fall of man was indeed a big fall and a catastrophic one at that. From the very beginning God decreed "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" Gen 2v24. It was only a matter of just seven verses after this that we read that mankind had fallen from its high estate in defying God's earlier decree in Gen 2v16,17. and the rest is history.

The carnal mind is enmity against God and mankind did not wait long before in this instance it showed its utter disregard for God's order in Gen 2v24. as we find out in Gen 19v1-11.

Rather than associate this wickedness (Sodomy) with either the "genes" or the "nurture" factor, or both, would it not be more appropriate to attribute this action purely and simply with the *volition of the human will that resides in the soul* . We decide to either obey God or defy Him and any other factors are purely secondary.

In Jude's short but forthright Epistle we see God's wrath reserved for such that relentlessly go down this route - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" v7.

We are thankful indeed that there is a way of escape for the repentant sinner of any proclivity, who turns to Christ for forgiveness in the day that his/her will is made willing in the day of God's power.


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## N. Eshelman (May 28, 2010)

Puritan Scot said:


> Homosexuality - or to use the correct term "Sodomy" is first an foremost a heinous SIN in the sight of God.
> 
> What exactly is SIN - "Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God" Shorter Catechism - Q14
> 
> ...


 
How pastoral. 

Those who are struggling with homosexuality care where it comes from. Getting to the root of sin is a major component in fighting sin.


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## Rich Koster (May 28, 2010)

I voted other. I knew someone, now dead from AIDS. It was a matter of he tried it and liked it and continued to do it. He dated women, but decided he liked men better. We all have a propensity to sin, and some things we just seem to like regardless of the consequences. Without Divine help, mankind just seems to degenerate to diverse desires/passions.


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## Philip (May 29, 2010)

Not sure whether it's an either/or between genetics and nurture. I'm not entirely sure that "nature" is entirely genetic. All of us face temptations daily---and facing temptations, attraction to the wrong person (of either gender) included, is not in itself sinful. In order for A to be a temptation, it has to hold some attraction for me. Was Jesus tempted? Yes, and He was without sin.

However, the question here is inherently flawed, in my opinion, because "having same-sex attractions" is not what makes one gay or lesbian. That is the lie that our culture is telling. Whether one is gay or lesbian is a choice---a choice to embrace the sin, to give in to the temptation. Our culture lies to people by telling them that it's what they are by nature or nurture, but no: it's who a person is by choice.


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (May 29, 2010)

Andres said:


> O'GodHowGreatThouArt said:
> 
> 
> > I personally believe that it is mostly genetic.
> ...



Reasons are endless (and would easily consume an multi-volume encyclopedia if written on paper).

Just to name a few examples:

- Looking at p0rnography can be used as a stress relief/escape, and can also show a desire in being involved with such activities.

- Growing up as a child of two gay people that were married, and thus missing out on the influence that their missing mother/father would bring. Such incidents can cause children to see what their "parents" did as OK, or could cause them to not have the ability to express themselves in a way a boy/girl should.

- A series of deaths occur in a family, and a close relative is depressed from missing the family that had passed on.

- The winning of a million dillars causes a person to wrongfully covet and purchase items that they cannot afford.

Notice a common theme: sin occurs in these cases because either,

1) The person committing it receives satisfaction from that sin.
2) The person committing the sin uses it as an escape from life.
3) The person committing the sin had traumatic events occur in their life (in relation to #2).
4) The person committing the sin is influenced towards the "positive light" of that sin by those that they trust.

You also cannot exclude that sin is our flesh and our nature, as I mentioned previously. So while the above are primary reasons, it is not exhaustive by any means.


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## Southern Presbyterian (May 29, 2010)

[bible]Romans 1:24-31[/bible]

It it the result of sin. Plain and simple. It is the judgment of God on both individuals and their culture.


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## Peairtach (May 29, 2010)

The essence of obedience is love for God.

_And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' " (Mark 12:28-30, ESV)_

The essence of sin is hatred for God, and every sin which we commit in thought, word and deed, is an expression of hatred for God, even after our conversion.

Why some people focus on one sin or a number of sins rather than another, and one sin often seems to exclude others, is I'm sure a fascinating subject, which may be of assistance in dealing with various types of sinners, and even our own sins, as long as we govern our thoughts on it by Scripture.

*Quote from John*


> the volition of the human will that resides in the soul . We decide to either obey God or defy Him and any other factors are purely secondary.



*Quote from Nathan *


> How pastoral.
> 
> Those who are struggling with homosexuality care where it comes from. Getting to the root of sin is a major component in fighting sin.



This is importantly pastoral, without which the nature/nurture thing is just an intro to true pastoral counselling. Sin is ultimately _a spiritual problem_ rather than another kind of problem. I agree there are other nature/nurture factors.

The better we get to know Christ and His great love for us, as well as getting to know His will, the more will we find the _spiritual_ roots of ongoing sin that we struggle with in our lives being loosened.


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## Idelette (May 29, 2010)

I've known several people that are homosexual, and each and every one of them had that inclination since childhood. I even know Christians that truly desire to live according to God's will, and repent of this sin, but are in agony because this desire is so imbedded within their nature. Personally, I believe the root is spiritual and genetic in nature. I think that our circumstances and experiences only foster that inclination but is not the root in and of itself. Ultimately, we sin in certain areas because we have a natural sinful inclination towards those sins. We don't sin in areas where we are not inclined to sin. We only act upon our desires, yet we do not choose our desires. We choose according to our desires. We are accountable for our thought-life and whether we entertain those thoughts, or whether we act upon them. But I'm not sure that our desires are completely by choice. (Rom 7) I think homosexuality is just like any other sinful tendency that we have...it begins in the heart and continues by choice.

So, I wouldn't agree that being "gay" is a trend or fashion. I think it may seem that way because it is much more open now than it ever has been before. But there have been homosexuals behind hidden doors for centuries. And you would be surprised to know how prevalent it actually is and how many people struggle with this sin.


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## N. Eshelman (May 29, 2010)

Richard Tallach said:


> The essence of obedience is love for God.
> 
> _And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' " (Mark 12:28-30, ESV)_
> 
> ...


 
Richard, I assume that we are all on the same page here regarding the fact that sin is a spiritual problem first and foremost. Death is a spiritual problem, cancer and heart disease are spiritual problems as well- it is the root of all of our torments. We just can't wave a big wand over all of life's problems and say, "Spiritual Problem" and expect them to be fixed. I know men who have struggled with this their whole lives- and men that love and submit to the Lord Jesus Christ- Reformed men. Very Reformed men. 

We need to know what's in the heart to help solve the problem.


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## Kiwigirl (May 30, 2010)

I work in a public school and I see boys as young as kindergarten with very obvious feminine tendencies, and their siblings with none. I have observed the development of twin boys in school, one is in special education classes and by 8th grade was openly gay, his twin brother is developing socially and academically normally. 

It is obvious that there is a brain/genetic link to some homosexuality, I can't comment on the difference in nurturing between the twin boys, perhaps one was abused the other not. Who knows? 

Obviously parenting is a key factor in directing children away from following sinful paths, but without the nurture of biblical principals genetic tendencies could lead to sinful behaviors.


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## CuriousNdenver (May 30, 2010)

I don't think it can be genetic - or that would mean that God set people up for it. It is though, a part of our sin nature that we inherited through Adam. I believe satan attacks each of us differently and presents temptations we are likely to fall for in a package designed to look attractive to us. Maybe it has something to do with nurture / upbringing / environment that may cause one person to be pre-disposed to this sin. 

I think it also has to do with society and what we are being bombarded with through the media and the culture around us. We are to guard our hearts and eyes and to teach our children the precepts of the Lord and write His law upon our hearts. When we don't do this we open ourselves to falling into sin. The media has "decriminalized" it, so those being attacked in this area no longer have the social stigma to deter them from yielding.


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## Peairtach (May 30, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > The essence of obedience is love for God.
> ...



I agree. But I'm just pointing out that the solution to all sins is ultimately spiritual.

I don't take your point that death, heart disease and cancer are spiritual problems, but physical problems.

Homosexuality is a moral evil, as is heterosexual behaviour outside of marriage. Death, cancer and heart disease aren't immoral.

If some people's struggle with sin is helped somewhat by pills or injections (hormones), or psychological counselling, fine. But there will still be a spiritual problem to be addressed.

The body and brain is also affected by the sins which we follow. If we eat a chocolate cake everyday, or commit a particular sin every day, the brain and body, as well as the evil soul, expect that evil reward every day.


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## N. Eshelman (May 30, 2010)

Richard Tallach said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Richard Tallach said:
> ...


 
The wages of sin is death. Death= Spiritual Problem. 

All of our problems are spiritual in nature.


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## Blue Tick (May 30, 2010)

> I am wondering if you all have thought about what makes someone prone to sinning in this way?


*

Homosexuality is a result of genetics and environment. *

If we identity homosexuality with genetic makeup why don’t we identify serial adulterers, pathological liars, habitual thieves, and chronic fornicators with genetic disorder. Using the genetic and environmental argument is nothing more than working within an evolutionary framework.

*Homosexuals say they’ve had this desire or attraction from a young age.*

I’m sure they’ve had this temptation from a young age. Just as we all have or continue to have the temptation or desire at one time or another to lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc, from a young age. 

*Temptation and desire. *

We’re all not tempted in the same way. Some folks are tempted to drug use and are more likely to indulge in the behavior. One person may be tempted to steal others may not. Other folks have an attraction to the same sex which tempts them to engage in fulfilling a desire. Admiring the attractiveness of a person is not sinful e.g. he’s a handsome man, she’s a pretty woman, the issue is desire. Homosexuality is born from desire. People who struggle with homosexuality have a desire to indulge in this behavior. The question is do they engage and act on the desire or do they resist and call out to God for deliverance and victory over the sin.


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## Peairtach (May 30, 2010)

> The wages of sin is death. Death= Spiritual Problem.
> 
> All of our problems are spiritual in nature.



Yes but some problems are more directly spiritual than others. E.g. biblical counsel is a good idea for someone who is struggling against heterosexual or homosexual sin.

If someone says they have cancer or heart disease they should be sent to the doc. They don't need to be counselled about some kind of spiritual struggle against heart disease.

They might need spiritual counsel to cope with heart disease, but the root cause of their heart disease and the solution to it is physical. If they have sins such as gluttony and drunkenness that have contributed to the heart disease, they can receive appropriate spiritual counsel about that at an appropriate time. But sometimes people face heart disease, cancer and death, and there are no _particular _sins behind it.

Illness and death was imposed on mankind because of his sin. It usually does not have a direct spiritual cause or solution, unless we want to take an extreme Pentecostalist approach to illness where it is always directly caused by sin or the Devil, and the cure is always spiritual.

The extreme Pentecostalist approach to illness is unbiblical, unhelpful and sometimes dangerous, and Christ-dishonouring.


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## NB3K (May 30, 2010)

In Romans 1, the apostle Paul explains that those who refuse to acknowledge God as God, that God has given the sinner over to a debased heart and to do what ought not to be done.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.--ESV


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## Peairtach (May 30, 2010)

NB3K said:


> In Romans 1, the apostle Paul explains that those who refuse to acknowledge God as God, that God has given the sinner over to a debased heart and to do what ought not to be done.
> 
> Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
> Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
> ...



Is there a denial of the Holy Trinity involved in a peculiar way in homosexuality?


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## Kiwigirl (May 30, 2010)

We recognize that things like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder are biochemical or genetic in nature and that perhaps the outworking of the disorder might be an obsessive addiction to p0rnography that could be resolved somewhat through appropriate medication. We also know that there are genetic predispositions towards alcoholism. Perhaps mental illness is a big part of pathological lying or serial killers or whatever. 

Whether genetics comes into play or not doesn't really matter, the problem is obviously spiritual and the sin can not be excused away by blaming genetics. However solutions to spiritual problems may find some relief through considering physiological roots too. 

I might be genetically predisposed to being a diabetic or having cancer or whatever and my diet may cause that condition to flare up, obviously the same is true with psychological predispositions that can show themselves as sins of depression or addiction. 

Of course not all sexual sin, alcoholism, or depression has it's roots in genetics but it seems to me that it is worth considering.


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## NB3K (May 30, 2010)

Denial as in Genesis where man and wife become one?


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## Peairtach (May 30, 2010)

The shape of people's brains change when they learn a new task like e.g. juggling.

Each time we commit a particular sin we may be confirming it in our own bodies particularly the brain, and making it more difficult for us to break with that sin. But we're to blame for the sin(s). We're also confirming it in our wicked souls.

The only way for the brain to create new neural pathways that aren't in line with the sin, is for us to responsibly face our sin, hopefully with the regenerating grace of God, and start to reverse our behaviours by God's grace.

I'm not saying that such things as agoraphobia are sinful, but see how they are treated using Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. 

By non-Christian psychologists, and by non-Christian patients, the grace of God isn't brought into it. But at least, CBT gets people to face their problems (whether sinful, e.g. homosexuality, or not) by taking responsibility for their behaviour and facing it in a practical manner.

It must always be emphasised by Christian counselling that homosexuality and heterosexual behaviour towards people you're not married to is sinful, unlike e.g. fear of flying.


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## Theoretical (May 31, 2010)

I see little problem with the fall twisting and warping even our genetics, just as it's wrecked everything else. A man or woman might be warped in this way and never feel sexual attracted to one of the opposite sex, but I firmly believe God's grace is powerful enough to overcome even an overwhelming genetic AND nurturing tendency towards that sin.

When it comes to the issue of moral responsibility, my answer to this question is "so what?", because we're not machines that are merely the sum of our wiring. 

As to the repentant person seeking counsel, I'd offer that (1) the Lord never gives us more than we can bear, (2) that the fall has shaped every aspect of our beings, and (3) that God richly rewards those who trust only in Christ and seek to obey His commandments out of love and gratitude.


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## LeeJUk (May 31, 2010)

Richard Tallach said:


> The shape of people's brains change when they learn a new task like e.g. juggling.
> 
> Each time we commit a particular sin we may be confirming it in our own bodies particularly the brain, and making it more difficult for us to break with that sin. But we're to blame for the sin(s). We're also confirming it in our wicked souls.
> 
> ...


 
I can testify that CBT got rid of a lot of my anxiety and fear yet I done it in such a way that was mentioning biblical truths rather than just logic to tackle my anxious beliefs/thoughts.

I would add though that CBT is mainly for use against fear and depression.

Regards,

Lee


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## Puritan Scot (May 31, 2010)

Several months ago when discussing with other Christians the merits or otherwise of a section within a Christian Party manifesto I was initially intrigued by the reference therein to Maslow's "Hierarchy of Needs". This model was seen as a somewhat credible framework to tackle the various social ills in our society. My initial cursory reaction was neutral, as on the surface it portrayed a reasonable acknowledgement of the general equity the second table of God's Moral Law.(commandments 5 through 10). It was shortly afterwards that I realised to my disquiet that the architect was none other than Abraham Maslow who throughout his life was an ardent and avowed secular humanist psychologist!. My thoughts immediately were cast back to the timeless principles contained within George Gillespie's discource on "Forbidden Alliances" where he warned of the dangers of embracing and having associations and confederacies with Idolators, Infidels, Heretics, or any other known Enemies of Truth and Godliness. George Gillespie as most of you will know was a close colleague of Samuel Rutherford who as Scottish Commissioners to the Westminster Asssembly both played an important role in formulating and drafting the Westminster Confession of Faith.

When I placed my earlier post on this thread it was not my intention to revisit the subject as it is not a field that I would claim expertise in but feel that I have to throw in my 

There would appear to be a general underlying vein of counseling confusion from a biblical perspective on this subject, not only within the wider Christian community as Nathan correctly states earlier -



> I know men who have struggled with this their whole lives- and men that love and submit to the Lord Jesus Christ- Reformed men. Very Reformed men.



Could it be that as present day Christians we are failing to apply rigorous prescribed Biblical principles to ails of both our society and church at the expense of pandering to the thoughts and opinions of the world.

Blue Tick is correct when he says that :



> Using the genetic and environmental argument is nothing more than working within an evolutionary framework.



So called Biblical Counseling has been infiltrated and indoctrinated by the world of psychotherapy and its associated models and counseling methods and have robbed the Bible of its rightful role in being first and foremost the God given manual for sin and our societies ill. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" 3 Tim. 3v16,17.

When we as Christians allow Freudian, Jung, (or their ilk's) humanistic theories to cloud our thinking we will end up going down the wrong path into a quagmire of confusion and lack of clear biblical direction as O'GodHowGreatThouArt has stated :-



> Reasons are endless (and would easily consume an multi-volume encyclopedia if written on paper).



Undoubtedly this has led to a distorted view of the biblical doctrine of the state of Man after the Fall in Genesis. Rather than seeing sin for what it really is we focus on how the Fall genetically and environmentally led to man being a "victim" rather than a "sinner" that needs to repent and turn to God's Word and the all sufficiency of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the guidance and renewing power of the Holy Spirit in delivering us from our sins and misery.

The Bible should always first and foremost be our starting point and yesterday as I happened to be reading a portion of Ecclesiastes it struck me just how timeless and appropriate God's Word is - even for this very subject.

"The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written (The Bible) was upright, even words of truth. The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of the assemblies, which are given by one shepherd. (Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit). And further, by these, my son be admonished: of making of many books (Freud, Jung, Maslow - Et al.) there is no end; and much study and weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man (Biblical Obedience) Ecclesiastes 12v10-13. (italics mine).

From a practical counseling viewpoint and that but very briefly we should :-
(1) Restore the Bible to its primary role as the sole and sufficient antidote and manual of instruction for our lives. 2 Tim 3v16,17.

(2) Seek God's Sufficient and perfect provision (to the exclusion of secular and humanistic thought and psychotherapies). - "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for uncleanness". Zechariah 13v1.

(3) Rather than see our sins as being as a result of our genetic and environmental situation we should see them as David saw his - and repent. Psalm 51.

(4) Rigourously rebuke and reprove our indwelling sin each day rather than accommodate it in any way . Matt 5v 29,30. 2 Tim 2v 19-22.

(5) Daily trust in the all sufficiency of Christ and the enabling and renewing power of the Holy Spirit to deliver us from our temptations 2 Cor 12v9.


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## Peairtach (May 31, 2010)

NB3K said:


> Denial as in Genesis where man and wife become one?



Yes.

In the case of homosexuality there is a particularly flagrant denial of Man Made in the Image of God. God being both One and yet Plural. Man's imaging forth of God's plurality is subverted, denied and trampled on by homosexuality.

_So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27) _

In the case of fornication and adultery, the imaging forth in Man of the plurality of God is not explicitly profaned, but the imaging forth in Man of God's Unity is subverted, denied and trampled on.


In fornication there is no intention to become truly One.

In adutery, the Unity of the family is broken.


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## Peairtach (May 31, 2010)

Maybe there should be options like :

(a) It's mostly sinful, but that particular sin may be followed because of nurture/nature factors.

(b) It's all sinful. Nurture/nature can be an excuse.

Does the Bible indicate that even with the worst genes/hormones and with the poorest upbringing, homosexuality should not happen if there is not a sinful, rebellious spiritual attitude behind it?

What makes a man lust after women that he's not married to?

(a) Only sin?

(b) Mostly sin?

(c) Nature?

(d) Nurture?

(e) Both/and?

(f) Other?


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 1, 2010)

The root of the sin is a rebellion against God. Attempts to make claims beyond that seem to be rationalizations in my opinion. One may ask why this sin and not another, but that does not change the root of the sin which is the nature of man in a fallen state in rebellion against God.

The question may be proposed why do some men become thieves? One may attempt to find the source or the “reason” for engaging in that particular sin by analyzing a poor childhood, a family upbringing in which the father was engaged in theft, brain chemistry imbalance or a genetic predisposition or towards kleptomania… but the root of the sin can be traced backward from rebellion against work “by the sweat of your brow,” or a lack of contentment of what the Lord has provided, to a rebellion against the Curse of God, or against the decree and provision of the Lord. The true root is rebellion against a Just and Holy Creator.

The same can be said of any sin. Attempting to find a root for a particular sin other than a rebellion against the Lord is a vain practice at best and a dangerous use of thought at worst. 

Is not sin simply a result of the hardening of the heart towards a Righteous, Just and Holy God, and sanctification an act of the holy spirit upon an individual?

I reject the charge that seeking a source (other than rebellion against God) for any particular sin will have any aid in overcoming that sin.


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## py3ak (Jun 1, 2010)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> I reject the charge that seeking a source (other than rebellion against God) for any particular sin will have any aid in overcoming that sin.


 
I'm not sure you're right. Understanding, of course, does not take away the moral problem. But understanding a temptation better can assist you in avoiding its triggers, for instance. And from the standpoint of giving counsel, knowing why a person's depravity manifests itself in particular ways can help with showing what truths most need to be stressed with a given person, because there is least apprehension of them. Just as you might point orphans to verses that particularly detail God's care for orphans, and lay special emphasis on the texts that teach His fatherhood, so you might attempt to show a homosexual that genuine, loving friendships between men are possible and commendable, but not sexual in nature; you might attempt to show that godly delight in diversity which creation, and indeed the creation of man as male and female, displays; you might point them to the titles of Christ as "friend" and "elder brother" as being particularly compelling for them. It is as well to remember that guilt and misery can't really be separated: so at the time as we have to be completely pellucid about the nature of the guilt, we also have to be compassionate towards the reality of the misery. Being a sinner is wrong; it is also no way for a human being to live.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 2, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Pilgrim Standard said:
> 
> 
> > I reject the charge that seeking a source (other than rebellion against God) for any particular sin will have any aid in overcoming that sin.
> ...


 
From the standpoint of giving counsel I would agree that "showing genuine, loving friendships between men are possible and commendable, but not sexual in nature;" from the word, as well as, "godly delight in diversity which creation, and indeed the creation of man as male and female, displays" etc. are proper approaches. 

You have used some very good examples of how one may counsel someone under this sin.

But your examples do not seem to be contingent upon "seeking a source other than rebellion against God and his Law," nor do they seem to be contingent upon "identifying triggers." You are attacking the heart of the sin in light of God's word and his laws of creation and I entirely agree with this approach. You do not seem to be looking for a source somehow particular to the person in question, for that sin. 

I am not convinced that Knowing why a person's depravity manifests itself in particular ways is any greater an aid than knowing the nature of the particular sin itself. Perhaps the Christian Psychology crowd would disagree with me here. 

Showing a Man engaged in adultery, from God's word, why adultery is wrong, against God's will, mandate, and family economy, & how the Lord blesses and manifests His love to us through a proper relationship with ones wife seems much more profitable than attempting to seek out and deal with a history of the man growing up under a cruel mother, or a superfluous expectation from his wife that she does not meet. 

I suppose that we would take differing views on counsel, of *which I am no authority and have no training in.* But it seems to me that looking for "triggers" or sources particular to an individual is almost working backwards. I would view these triggers as symptoms of the sin and not sources that we should focus upon. There could be an untold amount of “triggers” for any particular sin, but they all lead to the root which is the particular sin in question. Turning away from a particular "trigger" results in turning to other "triggers" in the reprobate. I would take the approach of teaching the necessity of turning from the sin and unto Christ.

What is good to note is that we utilize the word to show the nature of the sin, the fallen nature of man, how it is in opposition to God's Law and his divinely appointed economy, that we can be reconciled unto a Just and Holy God through the finished work of His Son and the manifestation of the Christians Love for Christ is through obedience to His command.

I entirely agree that we must be "compassionate towards the reality of the misery" brought on by sin and I am glad that you pointed that out. Far too often we as Christians find particular sins so abhorrent that we forget this.


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## Philip (Jun 2, 2010)

Benjamin, here's how I think it would help:

You are treating the human person as if he were disembodied: as if somehow if only we can educate the man, he will see the error of his ways and do an automatic 180 turn. It's an overly intellectual approach that I myself struggle with: because I (more than most) connect thinking with doing, I often don't recognize that the intellect isn't the issue.

Why do I struggle with lust even though I know intellectually that it's wrong? I am constantly having to repent of this sin. Part of it is that my body is still fallen and part of it is that the old man is still there. So is it enough just to keep beating myself over the head with the truth every time I fall? I don't think so. I need to strategize on how to avoid lust-inducing situations and try to understand what my peculiar struggles in this area are so that I can be more aware. The Spirit and the flesh are in an all-out war where every advantage counts. True, the Spirit will win in the end, but we can't just sit idly. All the intellectual knowledge in the world is no good unless you live it and breathe it. Knowing the truth is one thing, but bringing it to bear on the day-to-day hour-to-hour struggle with sin is another. Through Christ we have victory, but it's painful.

Maybe it's just that I think in terms of my own struggles with lust proper (not homosexual attraction specifically). And honestly, the church isn't very good about dealing with this: lust proper is dealt with openly---I've seen books, articles, and resources out the wazoo on it. Yet when it comes to homosexuality, it seems that the church does a terrible job. It's just so embarrassing for a person to admit this in our nice little Christian subculture that we look down on one who admits to struggling with it---and that just isn't biblical.

I remember hearing a story about a Christian musician playing and preaching at a Christian university (not reformed, BTW) and a mini-revival broke out. However, as people publicly confessed sins, particularly homosexuality, the administration quickly shut the event down: why? Because you don't go there, you don't admit that people struggle with this at your neat clean little Christian college. The church needs to address this better: not simply by condemning sin as sin, but by coming alongside those who struggle with sin.


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## Eoghan (Jun 2, 2010)

*I think it does matter*

I read the first few replies and was surprised. There is to my knowledge no evidence of a genetic pre-disposition to be gay!

To accept that it is a genetic "orientation" is however very important for the narrative of gays as a persecuted minority throughout history.

Consider the following
1) Who wrote our DNA? What orientation did He write into it?
2) I cannot discriminate against someone born a different colour because they were born that way as the Creator intended
3) I can feel very uneasy about Michael Jackson however who seems to have decided to have surgery to become caucasian and distance himself from his Afro-carribean anscestry
4) IF homosexuality were genetic then that gene(s) would die out - put simply it will not pass on to the next generation!
5) If it is genetic which of the eight individuals on Noah's ark had the gene?

The whole thing is a smokescreen to perpetrate the liberal myth that being gay is NORMAL, NATURAL and as NATURE INTENDED.

I would also point out that Paul is quite adamant that this sin specifically leads to a *seared conscience*. That is those who choose this lifestyle go contrary to the created order and have their conscience seared as a judicial judgment.

Interestingly the American Psychiatric Association dropped homosexuality as an illness - their argument being that if somebody was comfortable with it then it was not an illness. Those however who were disturbed about their condition were "mentally ill" (Psychoheresy p140)

The irony is those who still have a conscience are "mentally ill" and those who have had their consciences seared are "healthy" - there is something perverse about that!


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 2, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Benjamin, here's how I think it would help:
> 
> You are treating the human person as if he were disembodied: as if somehow if only we can educate the man, he will see the error of his ways and do an automatic 180 turn. It's an overly intellectual approach....





P. F. Pugh said:


> I often don't recognize that the intellect isn't the issue.



I don't believe that it is an overly intellectual approach. Perhaps I am totally wrong here. I thought it to be a biblical approach in that it is not seeking out sources other than mans fallen nature that is in rebellion towards God. I suppose one could call it a "heart" problem. But to an extent the intellect is somewhat at stake here. An Idolotrous pagan who has not heard the word of God needs to be presented the truth of the word of God at some point or conversion would not take place. In the same way, a sodomite ignorant of God's decree and family economy needs to be presented with the truths specific to his sin as well as the Gospel, even though some of the truth of that sin has been made available by the light of nature alone.



P. F. Pugh said:


> I am constantly having to repent of this sin. Part of it is that my body is still fallen and part of it is that the old man is still there. So is it enough just to keep beating myself over the head with the truth every time I fall? I don't think so. I need to strategize on how to avoid lust-inducing situations and try to understand what my peculiar struggles in this area are so that I can be more aware.



I don't understand the view of approaching the truth of God's word as a means of dealing with sin as "beating ones self over the head with the truth." 

I do think that I am beginning to see what you mean by making attempts to strategize on how to avoid particular sins though. A drunkard who simply can not walk by an establishment serving Alcohol without going in and engaging in overindulgence should avoid walking by such establishments and being around alcohol, but this approach seems more akin to beating oneself over the head than seeking out the issue in the word of God and through prayer. Are not those the means the Holy Spirit uses to work in us?

You know meditation on God's word has helped me greatly as a means to overcome specific sins. Memorization of scripture particular to specific sins has been a blessing in my life. The most refreshing thought to me, in regards to this, is that sanctification comes directly from the power of Lord and not my own. It reminds me of the Love that he has for His children. I fall so often when I attempt to strengthen my way out of it, or game my way around it. All I can do is pray & trust in His word. 

Perhaps strategizing around a sin has been used by God as a means to help His people but I have not had that experience. I have to trust your experience on this one brother. But the practice has lead me to a sin that I have fought more than I care to admit which is self reliance, when I should be in reliance to God.

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------




P. F. Pugh said:


> as if somehow if only we can educate the man, he will see the error of his ways and do an automatic 180 turn.


 For clarification - I believe that the education is a necessary element, but the work is of God. Any amount of education by itself will not garner change. The responsibility and guilt is mans, but true change will not come but from the Lord.


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## Philip (Jun 2, 2010)

> I don't believe that it is an overly intellectual approach. Perhaps I am totally wrong here. I thought it to be a biblical approach in that it is not seeking out sources other than mans fallen nature that is in rebellion towards God.



I do think it's overly intellectual: it's quite true that homosexuality is a product of sin, but surely we can be more specific than that. You've stated a tautology: it's blasted obvious if you know the Bible, but how does that help the one struggling? It's like the man who goes to the psychiatrist for help with a problem and the psychiatrist just says "Stop it!" The whole reason why the man came was for help in stopping it!



> An Idolotrous pagan who has not heard the word of God needs to be presented the truth of the word of God at some point or conversion would not take place. In the same way, a sodomite ignorant of God's decree and family economy needs to be presented with the truths specific to his sin as well as the Gospel, even though some of the truth of that sin has been made available by the light of nature alone.



But this is irrelevant to the point I'm making. My question is how do we help redeemed regenerate persons who are struggling with this? What kind of practical down-to-earth no-nonsense stuff can we be doing here and now?



> Perhaps strategizing around a sin has been used by God as a means to help His people but I have not had that experience. I have to trust your experience on this one brother. But the practice has lead me to a sin that I have fought more than I care to admit which is self reliance, when I should be in reliance to God.



And we have to guard against this when God gives us victory. It's not unique to homosexuality, lust proper, or any kind of struggle with sin. On the other hand, God doesn't let us just sit around: He calls us to live in the world and not be of it---to do things for His glory. We are called to struggle against sin, which calls for practical and spiritual war. It may mean avoiding certain places, it may mean frequenting others. It may mean accountability with fellow believers. 



> but this approach seems more akin to beating oneself over the head than seeking out the issue in the word of God and through prayer. Are not those the means the Holy Spirit uses to work in us?



But hardly the only means. I'm taking being in the word and praying as a given, but unless you are a monk (and even if you are), it's more complex than this.


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## py3ak (Jun 2, 2010)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> But your examples do not seem to be contingent upon "seeking a source other than rebellion against God and his Law," nor do they seem to be contingent upon "identifying triggers." You are attacking the heart of the sin in light of God's word and his laws of creation and I entirely agree with this approach. You do not seem to be looking for a source somehow particular to the person in question, for that sin.
> 
> I am not convinced that Knowing why a person's depravity manifests itself in particular ways is any greater an aid than knowing the nature of the particular sin itself. Perhaps the Christian Psychology crowd would disagree with me here.


 
I can see your point, and perhaps understanding contributing factors is more helpful to an observer than to the struggler himself; but I would think that if you understand the nature of a particular sin, you'd already have in hand a number of clues as to why a person's depravity manifests itself in a given way: and further investigation could narrow it down even more. In my examples I took it for granted that the absence of healthy masculine relationships is a contributing factor in much homosexual activity. And that identifies one very practical reason why it is important to understand the contributing causes: because you can try to counteract them. I guess I don't see much disagreement between us, because you agree that certain truths are particularly applicable, and I see an understanding of the contributing causes of a specific manifestation of depravity as one helpful indicator of which truths those are.


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## jonjordan (Jun 2, 2010)

On that topic, our pastor Matt Chandler recently taught a Culture + Theology session on Homosexuality last Friday night at The Village in Dallas. In a city with an ever growing and present gay population I thought he handled the topic Biblically and with a pastor's heart.

Videos here: The Village Church : Adults - Culture & Theology


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 4, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> It's like the man who goes to the psychiatrist for help with a problem and the psychiatrist just says "Stop it!" The whole reason why the man came was for help in stopping it!


 I would not view attending to God's means of grace with seeking help from a psychiatrist. 



P. F. Pugh said:


> But this is irrelevant to the point I'm making. My question is how do we help redeemed regenerate persons who are struggling with this? What kind of practical down-to-earth no-nonsense stuff can we be doing here and now?


 Are you speaking of redemed and regenerate Homosexuals living in the sin? Does anyone out there have some good recomended readings on Sins of Omission and Sins of Commision for me to research further. This question poses many in my own mind. Thank you.



P. F. Pugh said:


> And we have to guard against this when God gives us victory.


 Yes I agree. We must also guard against this [self reliance] prior to and through the process that God gives us victory. He is our hope.



P. F. Pugh said:


> But hardly the only means. I'm taking being in the word and praying as a given, but unless you are a monk (and even if you are), it's more complex than this.


 Then I would as that you pray for my understanding in this matter. I must not understanding at all brother. I would view the example of "unless you are a monk" as indicative of thoughts that tend towards overcoming sin in ones own power.


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## Eoghan (Jun 4, 2010)

*Knocking the science argument on the head*

The original homosexual gene was "found" by a homosexual who was looking for it and altered his results to show he was right. The Gay Gene

I thought this was a THEOLOGY forum! If we let "science falsely so called" [BIBLE]1 Timothy 6:20[/BIBLE] determine our hermeneutic then what are we doing!


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