# Latin in the Christian Trivium



## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

I know a few families who are trying to incorporate Latin into their children's homeschool education but none of them seem to be doing a very good job. This may be because the parents don't read Latin but it may also be because the textbooks they're using seem pretty terrible (to me at least). How many of you who homeschool your children are incorporating Latin and how effective have you found it to be? Which textbooks do you use?

When I read about men in the Reformation and post-Reformation era, the studying they did at home and how much they were able to learn (Jonathan Edwards was doing well with both Greek and Latin at age 7) it seems to me that homeschooled Christian children these days are lagging behind what they have the capacity to do even though they do better than children in the public schools. I'm just curious to know what others' experiences have been because I would like begin considering these things before I have children and implement my own homeschool cirriculum. 

Also, speaking of textbooks, does anyone use Latin in the Christian Trivium? I've only looked through it on Amazon but it seems better than others I've seen.


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## non dignus (May 22, 2007)

Our kids go to a good school that doesn't include Latin. So I'm self-learning and teaching Latin to my 7 and 9 year olds. I started with the _Latina Christiana _series from Veritas Press. Now I'm sorry we didn't begin with classical pronunciation instead of the ecclesiastical pronunciation which Veritas prescribes. I wish I hadn't started with that series even though it helped very much.

The best little gem of a book I found is Jenney's _First Year Latin_, published by Allyn and Bacon. It is your regular hardbound school text book. This is my curriculum guide now, and I supplement it with various other books from _Latin for Dummies _all the way up to _Wheelock's Latin_.

My 9 year old is doing 3rd declension and they are both conjugating 4 verb kinds in the imperfect tense. Our vocabulary now has about 75 words. The best part is they are miles ahead in English grammar as a result of this study.


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Soapbox and opinionated post in 3....2.....1....
> 
> 
> Why learn a dead language when there are thousands of languages that need the Scripture? It is not even an original Scripture language. Learn Tamil, Indonesian, urdu, Arabic....... It would be nice to read some classics, but if you want to equip your kids for service in real life instead of sitting and reading while the world burns around you, then go ahead.
> ...



Trevor,

I know you're very excited and proud about your calling to foreign missions but please refrain from hijacking my threads. I'm not asking for your opinion about learning Latin; I'm asking for input from those who are currently doing Latin programs with their children.

There are plenty of good reasons for learning Latin. They may not be good enough for someone who thinks that evangelism is the only worthwhile use of one's time, however (although, as I will show later, it _can_ be useful in that context). I chose to study Latin in high school and am still doing so in college. It serves a much greater purpose than just sitting around and reading classical literature, although there is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoyable leisure reading. It was through the study of Latin that I developed a much stronger grasp of grammar. English started to make more sense (since the public school system doesn't teach English grammar anymore...only literature) and the foundation was laid for me to learn other, easier languages much more quickly (which addresses your concern about learning other languages). There are not many resources for 7 year-olds to learn Tamil or Indonesian. But if they understand how languages work and have studied very difficult ones like Greek and Latin, then they can choose to study other languages later in life. I started German as a freshman in college and, because of my work with Latin, am able to read at a fairly high level and carry on conversations with native speakers with ease after only two-and-a-half years and a minimal amount of time spent in Germany. I could learn French, Spanish, Romanian, Portugese, or Italian in my sleep. Latin also builds one's English vocabulary since up to 60% of our words have Latin roots. Studying classical civilization also helps one understand the context in which the New Testament was written and provides background info without which some references in the scriptures are indecipherable. Furthermore, the study of grammar and rhetoric produces intelligent, articulate individuals. This is helpful because we need such people in the public realm defending the faith and glorifying God in regular secular vocations. These are just a few reasons.


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## R. Scott Clark (May 22, 2007)

Trevor,

Why would you "love to learn Latin" (a dead language) when...? Your post seems conflicted and perhaps contradictory. Either Latin-learning children are wasting time while the world burns (in which case your desire to learn Latin is sinful and you need to repent) or you are wrong-headed in your passionate diatribe against children learning Latin. You can't have it both ways. 

The bulk of your post reflects an attitude toward learning which is rampant among American evangelicals. Your post is typical of those who place "doing" above learning. The anti-intellectualism in your post emerges clearly when you say, "sitting and reading while the world burns."

I struggle daily to eradicate this very attitude from my students.

If they are to do anything of value as ministers, their first duty is to sit, read, and learn a couple or three dead languages.

The very activism you advocate has caused our educational system (whether Christian or secular) to cut us off not only from the great Western (classcal and Christian) tradition but also from our own theological tradition. Most of our theology from the 16th and 17th century remains hidden in Latin. Because so many have taken the same approach you advocate, few of our ministers can actually read those texts. Indeed few scholars seem to be able to read those texts. As a consequence of this almost universal ignorance, we've been victimized by a propoganda campaign distorting the nature of our own theological tradition. 

If evangelical and Reformed folk and fundamentalists had spent more time "sitting and reading" there might be fewer fires to put out. Our ministers might actually be able to spot the foolishness of the Federal Vision for what it is. Because so few people have actually spent the time to sit and read many of our congregations are burning!

I received another post this morning from someone deeply distressed about the theological and, as a consequence, the spiritual condition of some of the Reformed churches in the Pacific Northwest. This condition is directly related to the pervasive ignorance about the Reformed tradition, about our theology, piety, and practice. Ignorance isn't pious, it kills.

How much time might we have spent on advancing the gospel rather than conducting stupid arguments had we all a better education? 

If our new students came to us with only a decent grammar, high school, and college education we could advance well beyond where normally do with most students. Nearly all of them are victims of the same sort of anti-intellectual, activist approach to education reflected in your post.

Assuming you indulge yourself in "sitting and reading" occasionally (as I think you do) then perhaps you enjoy C. S. Lewis? Why do you think he was such an amazing writer? Lewis wasn't a brilliant writer only because he was gifted. He became a great writer because he worked at it. You might read the recently published editions of his letters. There one gets a sense of the sort of misery he suffered in order to become one of the great English language writers in the 20th century. Without learning to conjugate verbs and decline nouns from a couple of dead languages he would not have been as skilled as he was.

Would it matter if you found out that a substantial percentage of the English language has Latin roots? Would it matter if I told you that learning an inflected language (i.e., a dead language that uses cases) is one of the first steps toward really understanding English? Indeed, learning to pay attention to the facts and grammar in a Latin or Greek sentence is one of the best learning exercises a student experiences. Inflected languages force a student to pay attention to evidence and to think clearly.

I understand that you're not counseling complete ignorance, just selective ignorance. I understand your frustration that not enough folk are preparing to do the work of missions, but as I understand the missional task, it means that we must train ministers (of course, I come to that conclusion as a result of spending time reading dead languages!) to plant churches everywhere, in every language. We need to train nationals to preach in their own languages. In both cases, we need ministers who are well-trained and prepared to learn the languages of the world. Learning dead languages is excellent preparation for that work.

I hope you'll re-think your attitude toward learning.

rsc



trevorjohnson said:


> Soapbox and opinionated post in 3....2.....1....
> 
> 
> Why learn a dead language when there are thousands of languages that need the Scripture? It is not even an original Scripture language. Learn Tamil, Indonesian, urdu, Arabic....... It would be nice to read some classics, but if you want to equip your kids for service in real life instead of sitting and reading while the world burns around you, then go ahead.
> ...


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## LadyFlynt (May 22, 2007)

Trevor, I think the idea is that learning Latin actually helps with both scientifc and lingual abilities.

However, I agree that we should teach them other languages than just their own and ancient. Something that will help them in a world full of bilingual ppls. Oriental, asian, and romantic languages are all excellent to learn. Mine are learning Italian and Spanish...slowly but surely.


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## LadyFlynt (May 22, 2007)

Gentlemen, I don't think Trevor was "downing" the idea of teaching Latin...but rather the pedistool Latin is placed on, as though it is the root of all education or educational ability.


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Gentlemen, I don't think Trevor was "downing" the idea of teaching Latin...but rather the pedistool Latin is placed on, as though it is the root of all education or educational ability.



Actually his post said nothing about a pedestal but was a rant about the uselessness of Latin from beginning to end, making it sound like anyone who studies it is wasting their time at best and neglecting God's kingdom at worst.


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

non dignus said:


> Our kids go to a good school that doesn't include Latin. So I'm self-learning and teaching Latin to my 7 and 9 year olds. I started with the _Latina Christiana _series from Veritas Press. Now I'm sorry we didn't begin with classical pronunciation instead of the ecclesiastical pronunciation which Veritas prescribes. I wish I hadn't started with that series even though it helped very much.
> 
> The best little gem of a book I found is Jenney's _First Year Latin_, published by Allyn and Bacon. It is your regular hardbound school text book. This is my curriculum guide now, and I supplement it with various other books from _Latin for Dummies _all the way up to _Wheelock's Latin_.
> 
> My 9 year old is doing 3rd declension and they are both conjugating 4 verb kinds in the imperfect tense. Our vocabulary now has about 75 words. The best part is they are miles ahead in English grammar as a result of this study.



Hey David,

How many times per week do your children work on Latin? That's amazing that they're already doing three declensions and four verb conjugations in multiple tenses at ages 7 and 9. It's encouraging to me as well because the students I know who are around that age aren't making very much progress at all and I'm trying to figure out why. They're very intelligent children. 

By the way, Wheelock is a great text!  As far as books which were not made specifically for homeschoolers go, I've also found one called _Latin via Ovid_ to be helpful. Thank you for the _Jenney's_ recommendation


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Let us always prioritize those tasks that are foremost. Selective ignorance of low priorities in no way advocates anti-intellectualism, it frees up time for greater knowledge in specific and more practical fields.



Of course we agree about having right priorities. That's exactly _why_ my children will learn Latin. The issue here is your continual assertion that the study of dead languages is a low priority. This is where we are disagreeing. For whatever reason you cannot see the practical uses of studying Latin. Just trying to clear that up...


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

So...anybody else? I know there are many homeschooling families on this board. Which texts do you use for Latin (if you teach it) and how are your children doing with it?


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## JJF (May 22, 2007)

Trevor,

I'm not sure if you're are joking or not, but I would like to address your concern nonetheless. 

Latin will increase one's ability to learn other languages. I remember starting Latin during my second year of German study, and it greatly increased my understanding of how German works making it remarkably easier (most of the students in my German class struggled with the grammar-I didn't). Not to mention, Latin helped me to better my understanding of English/language grammar. I had an English grammar class, where we had to diagram sentences. Again, most of the students struggled-I didn't. Since then, I've learned classical Greek (I rarely had to spend time studying the grammar), biblical Greek, and Hebrew; I'm doing quite well in Hebrew now, which would not have been the case had I not taken Latin. There are quite a few students at Westminster who are struggling with Hebrew, and the students, who aren't having difficulty, spend a lot more time studying than I do. I'm also taking French this summer, and I'm sure that I'll experience the same. Latin is an essential bed-rock for further study of other languages, even for non-Romance languages like those that you suggest. To be successful in general language study, an individual needs a robust understanding of grammar. Latin provides that. I wish that I took it when I was a young lad. 

Furthermore, my ability to communicate lucidly, creatively and persuasively, both in the written and spoken word, has improved immensely. I noticed a big difference in the grades that I was receiving on my papers and essay tests, sometimes _wowing_ my professors with varied vocabulary and sophisticated argumentation. Yes, Latin has even helped me to think logically, to be more adept at solving problems, to be analytical and to appreciate the reason for well-constructed sentences.

Academically, it has opened many doors that would have been unavailable to me. I've contacted numerous professors in different fields in the academy, and they think highly of students who've studied Latin. They have even said that it would increase my chances of getting into prestigious programs around the country and abroad. It is a marker of intelligence. 

Although more could be offered in defense of the study of Latin, I'll give it a rest after I advance one last point. It has made me more humble. It has opened my mind up to a world that is much grander and greater than I am. It has introduced me to men who have said some pretty outstanding things. Standing among the likes of Cicero, Augustine, Aquinas, Ceasar, Vergil, I must hesitate before I overestimate myself.

I hope that you all teach your children Latin. They'll thank you in the end. You'll thank yourself.


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## Augusta (May 22, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Gentlemen, I don't think Trevor was "downing" the idea of teaching Latin...but rather the pedistool Latin is placed on, as though it is the root of all education or educational ability.



With all due respect to Trevor it is placed on that pedestal for good reason. It is one of the lost tools of learning. It is a "tool" that aids learning in almost every subject for the reasons Dr. Clark stated and more. I know some people think it is pretentious but that is part of the anti-intellectualism that has indeed infected our culture, especially the modern evangelical culture. 

I was brought up that way and would probably still be that way if God had not seen fit to marry me into a family that values education. No one and I mean no one in my extended family on both sides went to college. I am part of that American tradition of hard work with out the pretentions of liberal arts, languages, or higher learning of any type. I was, and still am, woefully ignorant and trying to play catch up. I was actually fed the "wisdom of men" line as well as the "thinking themselves to be wise, they became fools" line in reference to the higher church bodies and theological types. It was actually a virtue not to learn greek and hebrew much less latin. Crazy!

I am determined not to let that happen to my children. I will not let them be empty headed, lolly gaggers who know all about what is going on in hollywood and on tv and nothing about things of substance....

  

Ok shutting up now.


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## JJF (May 22, 2007)

Wow, when I posted the post above, there was only Trevor's post. A lot has happened since I began typing. You fellows are fast. 

Related to David's question, does any one know of a good classical Greek text for young children? I had a young fellow come up to me at church and ask me to teach him Greek. I was floored. I'm not sure what text would be good for his age range.


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## Augusta (May 22, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> So...anybody else? I know there are many homeschooling families on this board. Which texts do you use for Latin (if you teach it) and how are your children doing with it?



David, back to the original question. My children are being tutored in Latin at this school: http://http://www.newalbionacademy.org/ The teacher uses her own curriculum but I see her carrying around Wheelocks and another thing that I can't think of the name of. She teaches at two local Classical Christian schools. We are doing an English grammar through Latin approach because of how much better you understand English grammar rules by learing them via Latin. 

I found this website yesterday and wanted to share it here with others interested in Trivium homeschooling. They have DVD courses for a very reasonable price in Latin and Logic. They also have a classroom ready Rhetoric course (textbook). http://www.memoriapress.com/index.html


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## JJF (May 22, 2007)

Trevor, 

Again I posted after you, sorry. If your concern that Latin is just a dead language, then you're mistaken. It is very alive in our vocabulary, and I would argue that it brings other languages to life. Oh, the irony right? A dead language gives life to a living language. Not sure if it is true in all cases, but it sure was true in mine. 

I'm not quite certain how to word this without sounding argumentative, but, did you really think that your post wouldn't provoke protest? Your comment that Latin takes priority over living languages seems to imply that you think that many here love it. I might be mistaken, but...


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## Augusta (May 22, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Learning Greek and Hebrew takes precedence. These can easily enough be "lost tools of learning" whatever that means (presumably from Douglas Wilson's book on inculturating kids into Western culture). Arabic, Mandarin or (if Roman script is desired) Indonesian can provide grammar lessons and the mental work in linguistics just as well as latin.
> 
> Again: outside of the Bible, most any language will do - if it has a purpose.
> 
> ...



Trevor, the Lost Tool of Learning was a speech that Dorothy Sayers delivered at Oxford. Doug Wilson may also have been influenced by the speech along many many others. Here is a link to the speech: http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html

Don't let DW put you off of a style of learning that is centuries old and trained some of the best minds in the world.


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

Augusta said:


> David, back to the original question. My children are being tutored in Latin at this school: http://http://www.newalbionacademy.org/ The teacher uses her own curriculum but I see her carrying around Wheelocks and another thing that I can't think of the name of. She teaches at two local Classical Christian schools. We are doing an English grammar through Latin approach because of how much better you understand English grammar rules by learing them via Latin.
> 
> I found this website yesterday and wanted to share it here with others interested in Trivium homeschooling. They have DVD courses for a very reasonable price in Latin and Logic. They also have a classroom ready Rhetoric course (textbook). http://www.memoriapress.com/index.html




Thanks for sharing your own experience and for that link. It looks like it could be very useful! I just subscribed to their magazine "The Classical Teacher."


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## R. Scott Clark (May 22, 2007)

Be careful re the texts from Moscow, ID. Not because of the theology but because of the Latin. We used a text several years ago with our children and I found some mistakes. 

I don't know about all the Latin texts they publish. I don't even recall which one it was, but I think it was the most basic, introductory text.

rsc



CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hey David,
> 
> How many times per week do your children work on Latin? That's amazing that they're already doing three declensions and four verb conjugations in multiple tenses at ages 7 and 9. It's encouraging to me as well because the students I know who are around that age aren't making very much progress at all and I'm trying to figure out why. They're very intelligent children.
> 
> By the way, Wheelock is a great text!  As far as books which were not made specifically for homeschoolers go, I've also found one called _Latin via Ovid_ to be helpful. Thank you for the _Jenney's_ recommendation


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## Davidius (May 22, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Be careful re the texts from Moscow, ID. Not because of the theology but because of the Latin. We used a text several years ago with our children and I found some mistakes.
> 
> I don't know about all the Latin texts they publish. I don't even recall which one it was, but I think it was the most basic, introductory text.
> 
> rsc



Which one that we listed is from Moscow?


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## 3John2 (May 22, 2007)

I speak & read Spanish & am fluent in English. Just started Greek & I'm wondering if my knowledge of Spanish is the equivalent of Latin? Also working on INdonesian. I'm planning on joining brother Trevor in INdonesia within the next 10 years.


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## LadyFlynt (May 22, 2007)

Tracy, I'm in agreement with Latin being the root basis for many other languages as well as the language of medical science. This is why I support it. I also agree with Trevor that there are many people who have greater priorities in their immediate lives...I can vouch for this, because I have lived in another culture. Latin can be important...Latin is not second to scripture. I'm not an anti-intellectual, but I do see where a balance or understanding of different circumstances plays a role.

When we were attending the RPCNA, the discussion at Geneva was whether to continue in the Scottish Reformed or go Dutch Reformed. The way it was explained to us is that the Spiritual Life and the Academic Life were both important. The Dutch Reformed placed the Academic above the Spiritual hoping that would lead to the Spiritual...the Scottish placed the Spiritual above the Academic, because when it comes down to it, that is what matters first and foremost.


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## RamistThomist (May 22, 2007)

I am using _A Primer for Ecclesiastical Latin_. Having minored in Greek in college really helped with this.


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## R. Scott Clark (May 22, 2007)

David,

I don't know. I don't see a list anywhere. Perhaps I missed it.

Just a caution based on our experience. Perhaps they've corrected it since we used it.

I would make that caution about any grammar really except well-established works such as Collins or Wheelock or the like.

There are a lot of enthusiastic evangelicals discovering classical education (which is a good thing!) but enthusiasm isn't the same as skill or experience.

rsc



CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Which one that we listed is from Moscow?


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## non dignus (May 22, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hey David,
> 
> How many times per week do your children work on Latin? That's amazing that they're already doing three declensions and four verb conjugations in multiple tenses at ages 7 and 9. It's encouraging to me as well because the students I know who are around that age aren't making very much progress at all and I'm trying to figure out why. They're very intelligent children.
> 
> By the way, Wheelock is a great text!  As far as books which were not made specifically for homeschoolers go, I've also found one called _Latin via Ovid_ to be helpful. Thank you for the _Jenney's_ recommendation



We've been working around 30 minutes every day Mon through Friday. We drill in the car to and from school which is very profitable. 

Dr. Clark: mea culpa- I said _Veritas Press_; I meant _Memoria Press_.


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