# Requesting accommodation



## Caroline (May 13, 2010)

I am curious what others think about this ... 

I should preface it first by saying that I am merely looking for direction in the sense that I do not wish to put too much pressure on the leaders of my church or request something that is too difficult or burdensome. I think it would be wildly inappropriate if they declined a request and I responded, "But the Puritanboard said ..." and so you may be assured that I do not intend to use it in that manner.

But my question is what constitutes a reasonable request for handicap accommodation. My family is rife with disability, and so we are often facing this question in one form or another. My autistic son is about to make his profession of faith, and I have been painstakingly training him for it, and he has attended all the classes and so on. However, the vows themselves are worded in a manner that I am not sure he understands. I can explain them, but I'm still not sure he would totally understand, and I think vows should be something that the person taking the vows would understand. In other words, I would like to have them reworded to a simpler format. (Something tells me that I may have even mentioned this before, but I'm racking my brain and cannot recall what the response was, if I did--so maybe I didn't).

The other thing is that I am struggling physically again. I have had to use a wheelchair on and off sometimes in the past, and getting the wheelchair in and out of the church is always a huge deal because there is no ramp. At one point that I was unsure that I would be at a point of walking again, I requested that the church put one in, and there was a fair amount of discussion, but one of the louder trustees noted that it would make the front of the church unattractive, and we didn't want to be known as the Church With the Big Ugly Ramp. I bit my tongue when tempted to respond, "Well, would you prefer to be known as the Church That Wouldn't Put In a Ramp? Because I can make that happen." To be fair, some others in the church were quite anxious about the ramp situation and less concerned about appearances. Ultimately, my health improved, and I withdrew the request because it was no longer a pressing issue. 

However, my health is deteriorating once more in the past week and I'm having difficulty with the church steps and a lot of pain with walking, and it would certainly be nice to have a ramp. People are willing to help me, but it really puts me in tough spot to have to sit outside the church and wait for someone to happen to come along so that I can ask them to help me up the stairs. On the other hand, the church is struggling financially, and ramps are expensive, and I hate to put that burden on them--I'm not sure they can afford it, and those who are less concerned about the Big Ugly Ramp and more concerned about my ability to get into the church would feel bad about saying no, even if they really couldn't afford it. And it may turn out that the ramp really is ugly, and then people might be upset about it.

I'm not going to leave the church over these things, of course. They'll pretty much have to bury me to get rid of me. I just don't know what to do about it.


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## kvanlaan (May 13, 2010)

I actually don't see that it should be an issue at all. A sister is suffering. If the church can afford it, the compassion for said sister should overrule _any_ aesthetic concerns (to the point that I don't even know that aesthetics should be mentioned). Were they to refuse on a basis of the cost, would they be willing to have a set of strapping teenagers at the door waiting for you each Sunday? Surely they are willing to provide for such a need in the congregation... (James 2?)


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## Caroline (May 13, 2010)

Well, generally, I think there's a divide in how things like this are viewed. In this case, there would be: (1) those who are concerned that the aesthetic appearance of the ramp may discourage people from attending, make us look like a nursing home, etc. These tend to be a loud minority. (2) Those who dearly love me and my husband and kids and would pawn their possessions to put in a ramp and (3) the majority, who listen to both sides and then are greatly relieved to not have to make any decision.

Of course, the entire process is very uncomfortable for me, as I am asking the church to go to great expense and trouble for my convenience, and it is hard to hold that position without feeling bad about it. I tend to want to back down and just say, "Oh, never mind then, it's okay. I can manage." But increasingly, there are times when I really can't.

The pastor has endeavored to ensure that his children help me. But, of course, that adds difficulty also, considering that it means that I have to be very, VERY prompt about my arrival unless I wish to leave his children standing around outside on the Lord's Day, and considering that I have pain issues and disabled children, that can be difficult to achieve some days. The whole situation is simply awkward, and I hate to put people out like that.


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## jwithnell (May 13, 2010)

Please discuss the accommodation question with the deacons of your church; I would be heartbroken to think a church would place appearances over the ability for someone to attend and worship freely. 

As for the vows of your child; are you and the session reasonably sure you son is making a credible profession of faith? If so, it seems fair to have you perhaps reword and work with him as he makes his membership vows so long as what you say is consistent with the book of church order. Were my son at that point, he would likely say "noodle" to every other question -- not because he doesn't understand or believe, but because he feels like he needs to say something and that is the easiest thing (now) for him to say. May God bless you in your many struggles.


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## Tim (May 13, 2010)

Caroline, everything you have written seems perfectly reasonable and appropriate. You have been most humble and not demanding in any way in the way you have articulated your needs.

I agree that your physical accommodation is an issue to be brought to the deacons of your church. I am sure that there would be many people who would delight to swing a hammer and cut wood for your benefit, or to lift you and your wheelchair up the steps each Lord's Day.


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## baron (May 13, 2010)

My old church instead of putting up a ramp purchased an elevator lift. It wasn't brand new but worked fine. Church is poor but purchased elevator any way. Maybe your church could purchase one. 

Praying for you.


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## George Bailey (May 13, 2010)

Ummm...there's also this thing called the "Americans with Disabilities Act", which I'd assume applies to churches, too...we had to put in a wheelchair elevator for emergency egress to meet the code. 

It speaks volumes if a church won't comply with the municipal law, but even louder when they don't obey the law of love.


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## he beholds (May 13, 2010)

Caroline, 
Everyone has already given great advice, but I want to encourage you also to request these things! I specifically agree with those that suggested you speak to the deacons, and I say, do not ask the broad church. The session would be the one to make the decision, anyway, right? And it is charged to the deacons to serve us. If the church cannot afford a ramp, can the session go to the denomination? I don't know how that works, but I do know the denominations have some money--and isn't that a part of the reason we are Presbyterians--aren't we one church, one body? (I mean, we believe all Christians are one body and make up the church, but I am sure that a denomination would especially feel this way about one of her members.) 

And about your son, I think it is a great idea to help him confess what he believes and what he understands of that belief. (I do not believe specific vows are necessary, but a personal profession would suffice for any believer. I do understand that vows may be helpful, but not so much for someone who doesn't understand them.)
And I praise God with you that the Covenant is apparent in your house!


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## Kevin (May 13, 2010)

i am saddened that you had to ask for a ramp. I would hope that the deacons would have noticed you problems with the stairs & tried to accommodate your needs on their own. 

in my opinion this should be a top priority. I have had to turn down 2 very nice sites for very cheap rent because there was no simple solution to the ramp issue. For now we stay in a smaller building that everyone can enter rather then a much larger one that limits access for some.


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## Montanablue (May 13, 2010)

I just wanted to echo the advice that you go to the deacons instead of to the entire church. I, obviously, don't know how your church works, but in my church, this actually isn't something that would go up for a congregational vote. In any case, it might be more comfortable for you if the deacons were to broach the idea with the congregation. That way, you're not put on the spot.

It really saddens me that some people would value the asthetics of the church over allowing you to worship in a comfortable and non-awkward way. Having young people help you in is a good stop gap, but as you note, it means that they may have to miss part of worship, which isn't really right.


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## py3ak (May 13, 2010)

The ADA does not apply to religious organizations and entities controlled by religious organizations. 

It is not uncommon for those with scant acquaintance with chronic conditions and disabilities to have no conception of how difficult little things can be. Until you experience it yourself, or someone very close to you does, it's nearly impossible for the real scope of the difficulty to be perceived. What this means is that the chronically unwell or disabled, fair or not, are going to have to expect a certain amount of incomprehension, and be prepared to forbear, forgive, and suffer long. That being said, it is certainly appropriate to let church officers know what the struggles, why they are difficult, and what might alleviate them.


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## Jack K (May 13, 2010)

py3ak said:


> The ADA does not apply to religious organizations and entities controlled by religious organizations.


That's right. In fact, my church would like to make changes to become mere accessible but is hindered because, being in a 100-year-old building, any changes to the outside appearance run afoul of local historical preservation rules. Go figure.

Caroline, I agree you should respectfully make your desires known to the church leadership. But I would caution you against letting this make you bitter or taking an "I'm entitled" attitude where you think first about yourself. The world trains us to lean in that direction but we must resist. Of course the church SHOULD go out of its way for you. The church SHOULD pay special attention to your needs as you are suffering. But what if the church does not do what it should for you? Will you become bitter? Or will you still love the church, sinful as it is?

I'm not accusing you. In fact, it sounds like you're hanging in there and avoiding bitterness so far. But if it were me, I'd be starting to get irked by now. So I just want to remind you, in case things turn out disappointingly, that in Christ there's great beauty in being a person who cares little for her own rights.


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## Caroline (May 14, 2010)

Thanks for the responses. It is good to know that I'm not totally nuts about wanting to make the vows easier for my son.  I'll bring that up at my son's POF interview. I do think he can make a credible profession of faith--just it needs to be in simpler terms. I can relate to the 'noodle' thing, Brian. And very cute, by the way. My son has had some things like that that he says also, just sort of randomly. His teachers have told me that they have the most religious class in the school because of my son. He tells the other kids and the teachers about Jesus all the time and frequently prays with them. His teacher told me that if someone does something wrong, Kevin always says, "I will pray for you", and then he walks over to the window, looks up at the sky and says, "God, please help Dave realize that taking my scissors was wrong. Please change his heart. Amen." He is a sweet kid.

Thanks for the advice about the deacons .... I think I will approach the deacons as suggested and at least inform them that my condition is worsening again, and that at some point in the near future, we will have to revisit the Ramp Debate. 

Ruben is correct that it is often quite easy for people to simply overlook the effects of disability, and malice is not intended. In fact, in some ways, I think it is sweet. I often am under the impression that the failure to recognize deterioration is actually an unwillingness to accept it, a chronic hope that things may yet turn around. Other times, it is more that people haven't really thought it through completely. When I worked at a college and had to first start using a wheelchair, one thing I discovered was that the library had a wheelchair lift that was key operated, and the key was kept at the front desk of the library. I'm sure nobody had thought about this, but consider ... a person would have to be able to get up the steps and enter the library in order to get the key to operate the wheelchair lift to get into the library. I don't think they were trying to be frustrating, but just nobody had thought of that. They could go up the steps, and so they didn't see the flaw in that plan.

I was trying to avoid saying something that sounded too critical of my church, and as a result, I think I came off sounding too critical of them in another way. What I was hesitant to say is that I think there is too much disconnect between the Trustees and Session(besides the pastor, I mean) and the general congregation, and I think that has led to some of the problems mentioned (certain people being more concerned with aesthetics instead of practical issues of getting into the building). Not that I think the Session is evil at all--just somewhat distant from the average congregant, and so not always aware of some of the scope of some of the problems. In regard to the pastor and the church as a whole, I am deeply indebted to them. The pastor and his wife have often babysat my children while I have been in the hospital, and they arrange playdates for their kids to socialize with my autistic son (who thinks they are wonderful), and they bring me meals if my husband is out of town (my husband usually cooks in our household), and so on and so on. There are several people in the church who have appointed themselves caretakers of sorts, and they keep an eye on me, and note if I'm starting to get too shaky (when my meds start to wear off, it's not always as noticable to me as to other people) and then they dart over and bring water and help me get my medicine. And they manage to do all of it with such cheerfulness and goodwill that I don't even feel like I'm imposing--it seems like we are just friends helping each other out as friends do, and no big deal at all. 

Issues like the ramp and the vows are more difficult because they cannot be resolved within just the normal group of congregants, and so we must approach some people who have previously been not very approachable or sympathetic. And yet I know that they have a lot of responsibility and a lot of other concerns, and perhaps there are things I have not fully considered either.

I used to panic that I wouldn't be able to climb the steps anymore at some point and would have to leave the church. Now I'm less concerned about that. My husband has started attending church more these days and so he can help me often (at least on Sunday mornings), but even when he is not there, I know that there are people who would take quick action to do something if they really thought I couldn't go because I couldn't get into the building. In fact, I'm quite convinced that my pastor would stop the whole service and go out and lift me in himself if it came down to that point. But, of course, those solutions aren't ideal--either for others or for me. There's always nagging questions of how they would know if I were outside and couldn't get in, whether someone might get injured trying to lift me, and just the indignity of having to be carried into the building...

What's maddening is that it's only two stairs, too. The kingdom lost for want of a horseshoe nail, as the saying goes.


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## Andres (May 14, 2010)

Caroline, perhaps a non-permanent ramp could be devised? Are there any persons in your church who have some carpentry skills? I have seen sturdy ramps made of wood before that would not be attached to anything and could be picked up and moved by two men. The church could move it each Sunday. 



Caroline said:


> (1) those who are concerned that the aesthetic appearance of the ramp may discourage people from attending, make us look like a nursing home, etc. These tend to be a loud minority.


 
I'll also be praying for the above group from your church. They seem to be very confused in their priorities.


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## Tim (May 14, 2010)

Caroline said:


> What's maddening is that it's only two stairs, too. The kingdom lost for want of a horseshoe nail, as the saying goes.


 
Caroline, do you mean two _steps_? If so, Andrew's suggestion is quite suitable. A non-permanent ramp could be just the thing. And that would solve the aesthetic problem (NOT that anybody on this thread would agree that aesthetics should _ever_ come before the needs of a member who desires to worship).


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## Whitefield (May 14, 2010)

Sounds like a sheep is being left out of the fold because the gate is broken. Fix the gate.


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## Scottish Lass (May 14, 2010)

Granted, I've skimmed some of the replies (sorry, sick baby), so this may be a repeat, but instead of viewing themselves as the Church with the Ugly Ramp, how about as the Church Visitors/Outsiders May Feel Welcome In Because They Can Access It? 

If a visitor with physical needs sees a building she knows she cannot access, she will pass it by. However, one that clearly has made accommodations may well draw her in. I say this as a member of a congregation where nearly every child in the congregation has special needs. While none of them have physical needs, a visitor would quickly realize we're comfortable with everything from autism (at least two versions on the spectrum) to Down Syndrome to Grace's life-threatening hypoglycemia and all that may result.


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## he beholds (May 14, 2010)

Scottish Lass said:


> Granted, I've skimmed some of the replies (sorry, sick baby), so this may be a repeat, but instead of viewing themselves as the Church with the Ugly Ramp, how about as the Church Visitors/Outsiders May Feel Welcome In Because They Can Access It?
> 
> If a visitor with physical needs sees a building she knows she cannot access, she will pass it by. However, one that clearly has made accommodations may well draw her in. I say this as a member of a congregation where nearly every child in the congregation has special needs. While none of them have physical needs, a visitor would quickly realize we're comfortable with everything from autism (at least two versions on the spectrum) to Down Syndrome to Grace's life-threatening hypoglycemia and all that may result.


 
True Story:
My grandma who is 72 y/o lives two minutes away from a very solid Reformed church. My grandma is un-churched and maybe not really a believer. Because this church is so close to her house and she knows the pastor through me, she was actually attending for a little while. For being an un-churched, non-practicing Catholic I was very impressed that she'd go by herself and had not a complaint about the exegetical preaching or the singing of unaccompanied Psalms, two things that were new to her. However, the only way downstairs is on a very crooked,narrow staircase. So if she had to go to the bathroom or wanted to stay for a fellowship dinner, she had to nervously make the trek. This has prevented her from returning following her knee surgery. Now, the church has no idea about this, and I cannot imagine a way for them to possibly change things. In fact, I do not think it is possible. But until reading this thread, I only half-believed my grandma. I thought that yes, the stairs are a bit scary, but really it was an excuse. 
So I admit that I am guilty of Ruben's assessment:


> It is not uncommon for those with scant acquaintance with chronic conditions and disabilities to have no conception of how difficult little things can be. Until you experience it yourself, or someone very close to you does, it's nearly impossible for the real scope of the difficulty to be perceived.



There is not always going to be an easy solution in the present. And that may not be comforting to people like my grandma, but it should speak to us for the future. We should think of those things when building or renovating or "capitally improving" churches.


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## Caroline (May 15, 2010)

Hmmm ... removable ramp ... interesting thought. Actually, the church had something like that at first during Round 1 of the Ramp Debate, but it was way too steep and so essentially useless. I don't know where they got it and I think it had been sitting in the church basement since the 70's, when people thought that anything slanted was a 'wheelchair ramp', whether someone could actually go up it in a wheelchair or not. I burst out laughing when I saw it and challenged my pastor and couple of the elders to sit in my wheelchair try to scale that monstrosity (separately, I mean, not at the same time). I said, "I won't even penalize you for being strong, healthy men. You get to use all your male strength and healthy muscles and joints and everything. Go ahead and give it all you've got. If you actually make it to the top, I'll never mention a ramp again, I promise." 

They declined the offer and ruefully acknowledged that they'd likely kill themselves even attempting it. And so the 'ramp' disappeared. I hadn't thought much more about removable ramps, but I suppose they wouldn't have to be made that steep. Perhaps that would be a good compromise. It's not like you need a huge ramp to cover two steps.

Jessi, that's sad about your grandmother. But yes, stairs like that are a terror for anyone with walking difficulties. When I hear stories like that, I realize how lucky I am to be facing only two steps. Worst case scenario, I can be lifted two steps. People really can't even be carried safely down a steep narrow staircase.

My condition makes wild swings sometimes, and depending on how effective meds are and how tired I am and several other factors that are unclear, I can sometimes walk much better than other times. But even so, stairs are horrifying. I discovered that when I once was foolishlessly showing off that I COULD walk down a steep staircase at a friend's house. "Look at me," I said. "I can walk down these stairs without holding onto the rail." And at that very moment, I lost my balance and crashed down the stairs, taking with me two pictures from the wall that I grabbed in a futile attempt to keep from falling. It was one of those wonderfully ironic moments that makes a great story later, but all the same, it did teach me a serious lesson about just how dangerous balance problems can be. I have fallen down the stairs in front of my church probably at least ten times, but at least it's only two steps out there...


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## jayce475 (May 17, 2010)

Dear sister,

I believe my response from the other thread would be relevant to this one as well. Unlike the issue with language which may potentially have spiritual consequences, there is absolutely no excuse for the lack of physical access. I feel for your plight.


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## Edward (May 17, 2010)

If I found the right church on Google, cost should not be an issue. A single sheet of 3/8" exterior grade plywood, a couple of pressure treated 2x4s, a saw, some zinc coated screws, a screwdriver and optionally a drill and some paint. 

The fact that the church would even consider this to be a subject for debate angers me, so I better quit typing.


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## Caroline (May 18, 2010)

Edward said:


> If I found the right church on Google, cost should not be an issue. A single sheet of 3/8" exterior grade plywood, a couple of pressure treated 2x4s, a saw, some zinc coated screws, a screwdriver and optionally a drill and some paint.
> 
> The fact that the church would even consider this to be a subject for debate angers me, so I better quit typing.


 
Yep, you found it.  (I run the church website, and there's a visit from Texas through Google on my statcounter). I appreciate the support, ya'll. Just in case you were so inclined, though, don't hatemail the site. You'll only reach the pastor, and he already took some punches at the church for trying to get the ramp installed. I'd be horrified if he also got punched out for it NOT being installed.

Would it really be pretty easy to put in a ramp, though? I thought so too when I first brought it up. I honestly didn't expect it to turn into a big deal. But some dynamics have improved at the church since I last brought it up. Maybe this time would not be such a problem.


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## Wayne (May 18, 2010)

I pray it will work out. However, you'll need more than 3/8" thick plywood. 3/4" thick won't really cost that much more and will provide a much more stable, durable surface. Even with that thicker ply, the structure would still need some undergirding: cross-members for additional support and rigidity. Very likely that someone in the church knows enough to build a stable structure without a lot of elaboration. A few potted plants tastefully arranged after installation along the front to hide it a bit, and voila.


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## Edward (May 18, 2010)

> However, you'll need more than 3/8" thick plywood. 3/4" thick won't really cost that much more and will provide a much more stable, durable surface.



You are right. I must have had a brain fade. I meant to type 5/8, but 3/4 should do the job. 



> don't hatemail the site



I promise, no hatemail to the church or pastor. 

If you would like me to communicate with the trustee, however, I'd be happy to explain my position to him. While I doubt you'll take up that offer, pm me the contact info. if you think it would help.


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