# Tithing and "what counts"?



## Semiomniscient (Jan 3, 2011)

My friend asked me this weekend about whether or not giving to a medical charity (for child autism) was supposed to be considered as part of her ten percent tithe. I really wasn't sure how to answer her. 
As a number of things were going through my head, (such as my great-great-grandfather who was a baptist minister saying that tithes aren't required under New Testament law, just a cheerful giver giving what they can). Also, that the church is to take stewardship of our funds doing with them what needs to be done. But also, that as Christians individually, we have a responsibility to glorify God where and when we can--which includes monetary giving. I think secular charities that aim to research cures for ailments (ala St. Jude's) are includable.
Anyway, my figuring is that 10% is considered to be what most can reasonably afford to donate, and that the only problem I could see with it counting towards your tithe would be that it shorts the church's funds which should be spent on necessary expenses, mission-work, and the like. (I did also mention that 10% is by no means supposed to be a cap on your giving). 

I might mention that the girl is nominally baptist, but is in one of those struggling positions as a Christian. She's friends with my wife who's working on her to come to church with us.


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## au5t1n (Jan 3, 2011)

There is no tithe in the New Covenant. However, I think she should think of her private alms-giving and her church support as two different things. The amount she gives to church should not be dependent on or related to the amount she gives to charity. There is some overlap, however, in that the church is taking up a collection for the needs of the saints as well as the provision of the minister.


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## Tripel (Jan 3, 2011)

James,
I think you need to steer your OP into a specific direction. Do you want this thread to debate whether or not a tithe is required of today's Christian? If so, that's fine. But if you're wanting to determine what all "counts" toward the tithe, you probably need to clarify that this thread is aimed at those who subscribe to a tithe.


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## Rich Koster (Jan 3, 2011)

St Jude's? I'd do a little research about how they came about before endorsing giving to them .


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## Jack K (Jan 3, 2011)

Giving to charities, even overtly Christian charities, should not be confused with giving to the Lord by giving directly to his church. We have a tendency to want to "direct" our giving, so that we get to decide how to apportion it. That's fine and good with charity. But it's not the model for giving to the Lord. There we have true giving, with no stipulations attached, to be used by the Lord as he sees fit (through his church's officers) solely because he is God and is deserving of it.

As an added note... I suspect your friend will not be helped by having the issue of "what counts" settled for her in a rulebook sort of way, no matter which way the ruling goes. Can you explain that her heart is the real issue, and a heart capured by the Savior will result in the sort of giving where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and this sort of question starts to feel less important?


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## au5t1n (Jan 3, 2011)

Jack K said:


> Giving to charities, even overtly Christian charities, should not be confused with giving to the Lord by giving directly to his church. We have a tendency to want to "direct" our giving, so that we get to decide how to apportion it. That's fine and good with charity. But it's not the model for giving to the Lord. There we have true giving, with no stipulations attached, to be used by the Lord as he sees fit (through his church's officers) solely because he is God and is deserving of it.



This is what I was trying to say, but you said it better.


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

There are already many threads on whether New Covenant Israelites should tithe and how they should tithe.

I think there is a difference between the tithing of Abraham and Jacob under the Abrahamic Covenant _simpliciter_ and the tithing of the Israelites under the Old Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Abraham and Jacob voluntarily entered into an arrangement with Melchisedec, on Abraham's part, and God, on Jacob's part, to give ten percent.

Under the Old Covenant it was required, rather than voluntarily entered into, of the Israelites and there is some dispute about whether there was more than one tithe or not.

The story of Abraham and Melchisedec - a type of Christ - is mentioned with approval in Hebrews. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec when he brought forth bread and wine.

We are Christians - New Covenant Israelites - in the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are our fathers in the faith. Should we tithe like Abraham and Jacob?

Communicant members should be encouraged to reflect upon the example of Abraham and Jacob, and decide if they wish to enter into such an arrangement with the Lord as their fathers in the faith volunteered to enter into.

Technically-speaking such tithes should go to faithful independent or denominational churches, while almsgiving is on top of tithing and neither should be done with fanfare (Matthew 6:1-4).

Part of the tithe should be used by the church to help poor church members and others with (HEW) health, education and welfare.

I can understand that those who are already forking out in taxes to the State for health, education and welfare - things which were financed by the tithe in the Old Covenant period - and when no, or little, of these things are being done by the Church - would rightly do a calculation, if they so wished, to reduce their tithe by the appropriate amount.

In a better state of things the State would have less to do with HEW and the Church more to do with HEW.

In a more Christian state of things powers, responsibilities and privileges would be rearranged between family, Church and State, necessitating less tax to the State for HEW and more, and more faithful, tithing on the part of Church members to pay for HEW by the Kirk.


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## au5t1n (Jan 3, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> We are Christians - New Covenant Israelites - in the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are our fathers in the faith. Should we tithe like Abraham and Jacob?



I liked your post a lot, Richard, but I just want to note that the pre-Mosaic patriarchs also practiced circumcision and animal sacrifice, so the pre-Mosaic nature of an institution is not sufficient to establish that it belongs in the New Covenant.


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

austinww said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > We are Christians - New Covenant Israelites - in the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are our fathers in the faith. Should we tithe like Abraham and Jacob?
> ...


 
Good point.

But since we are in the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant (I'm not sure what RBs think of that), since in the early chapters of Romans we are reminded that Abraham is our Father in the Faith, since Melchisedec is a type of Christ, since we eat and drink bread and wine at Christ's table in fellowship with Him, since tithing in some form was established before the Old Covenant, since the whole story of Abraham and Melchisedec is repeated in the New Testament Scriptures, in the Book of Hebrews (a book which deals with what is passing away and what remains), we should consider what role tithing should have - if any - in this New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant, especially as it wasn't established under the law, and we have no other guide as to what proportion normal, regular giving should be.

Without any guide from Scripture whatsoever normal, regular giving might be 1% for one communicant member with a clear conscience before God, while another member may be giving 95% each week and still feeling guilty.

There is no proportional guide in Scripture whatsoever for regular giving to Christ's Cause and Kingdom, if tithing by our fathers in the faith and by Christ is ignored.



> On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. (I Cor 16:2, ESV)



Our Apostle tells us to give proportinately but doesn't specify any guidance as to _what_ proportion. 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 90%? 

Yet he also tells us to learn from all Scripture: 



> All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (II Timothy 3:16, ESV)



So to take I Corinthians 16 on its own re teaching on how to give to Christ's Cause and Kingdom may not be enough.

The Apostle to the Gentiles may also have been responsible for writing the Book of Hebrews, as we know the Holy Spirit, certainly did.

In II Corinthians 8:13-15 the Apostle talks about the need for equality in giving. It's difficult to see how there can be equality if there is no guide as to regular giving. One member may be regularly giving 40% of his income throughout the year, while another may be giving 1% regularly throughout the year. There is no kind of equal sharing of the burden by different church members.



> Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have. Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."


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## KMK (Jan 3, 2011)

Semiomniscient said:


> I might mention that the girl is nominally baptist, but is in one of those struggling positions as a Christian.



It sounds like this is one of those gnats that nominal Christians debate in order to avoid bigger problems. If she is only a nominal Christian then use these opportunities to steer her toward the Gospel.


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## au5t1n (Jan 3, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> Our Apostle tells us to give proportinately but doesn't specify any guidance as to what proportion. 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 90%?



He does not say to give proportionally in 1 Cor. 16:2. In keeping with the need you mentioned for further elaboration elsewhere (per 2 Tim. 3:16), here is another verse Paul wrote on the subject:

2 Cor. 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

> 2 Cor. 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."



Abraham and Jacob purposed in their hearts to cheerfully give at least 10% - not grudgingly or out of necessity, not even out of moral necessity as they volunteered this - and their example is part of the Bible's teaching on giving to Christ, our Melchisedec's, Cause and Kingdom. The Apostle's teaching must be taken with other parts of Scripture to get the whole picture of a guide to regular giving to Christ.




> Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, *as God hath prospered him*, that there be no gatherings when I come. (I Cor 16:2, KJV)



This passage does talk about proportinal giving but doesn't explicitly mention _what_ proportion.


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## au5t1n (Jan 3, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> Abraham and Jacob purposed in their hearts to cheerfully give at least 10% - not grudgingly or out of necessity, not even out of moral necessity as they volunteered this - and their example is part of the Bible's teaching on giving to Christ, our Melchisedec's, Cause and Kingdom. The Apostle's teaching must be taken with other parts of Scripture to get the whole picture of a guide to regular giving to Christ.



Does this mean you are only saying that the 10% tithe is a useful guideline with strong biblical precedent, not that it is binding? If so, then I have no further disagreement. I do find 10% to be a helpful minimum accountability standard.


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

> Does this mean you are only saying that the 10% tithe is a useful guideline with strong biblical precedent, not that it is binding? If so, then I have no further disagreement. I do find 10% to be a helpful minimum accountability standard.



Basically, yes. But if the Church were to finance things such as Health, Welfare and Education, like the Early Church was certainly involved in welfare, as well as the ministry and evangelism, etc, there would maybe have to be greater emphasis on tithing's importance as a biblical example to us from our Father in the Faith, Abraham. But there would be less need for high taxes by the State also and so more money available to the church members to give to the Kingdom.


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## Jack K (Jan 3, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> In II Corinthians 8:13-15 the Apostle talks about the need for equality in giving. It's difficult to see how there can be equality if there is no guide as to regular giving. One member may be regularly giving 40% of his income throughout the year, while another may be giving 1% regularly throughout the year. There is no kind of equal sharing of the burden by different church members.



But if you go by 2 Cor. 8, as you do here, the guideline depends greatly on the need rather than on a set, suggested percentage that applies at all times. Paul's point is that no believers should be in need while others live comfortably. In times of hardship (as with the crisis facing the Jerusalem church) this may require a far larger percentage-of-income giving than in other situations. If we were open with each other about our financial needs and resources, the appropriate amount for each believer might become more clear.


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

*Quote from Austin*


> I liked your post a lot, Richard, but I just want to note that the pre-Mosaic patriarchs also practiced circumcision and animal sacrifice, so the pre-Mosaic nature of an institution is not sufficient to establish that it belongs in the New Covenant.



Of course animal sacrifice is fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice and circumcision is fulfilled in baptism. 

Tithing, all would broadly agree, is fulfilled in New Covenant giving. The debate would be over whether Abraham and Jacob's choice of a tenth as an appropriate amount to give to the Priest-King Melchisedec and to God was purely random or contains some kind of helpful guidance for us.

When we come to the Old Covenant - Mosaic period - the learning from and application of ethical lessons becomes more complicated and paradigmatic (_mutatis mutandis_) as, e.g., the theonomy debate shows. We want to learn from Moses any general moral and practical equity without returning to the relative childhood of Moses. 

The international nation, the Israel of God (Gal.6:16) must move from the relative childhood of the Mosaic period, through the often rebellious adolescence of the last 2,000 years to the greater size, strength, maturity and consistency of adulthood (Ephesians 4:10-16).

*Quote from Jack*


> If we were open with each other about our financial needs and resources, the appropriate amount for each believer might become more clear.



Does this happen in many churches? The information would have to be voluntarily shared. The Deacons' Court couldn't/shouldn't make unwarranted demands for communicant members or others to share their financial secrets with them, especially if this is unexpected. There would have to be a different "culture" in this area of finance and giving and the role of the Diaconate than there is in many churches, or the churches I'm familiar with.


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## Jack K (Jan 3, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> Quote from Jack
> 
> If we were open with each other about our financial needs and resources, the appropriate amount for each believer might become more clear.
> Does this happen in many churches? The information would have to be voluntarily shared. The Deacons' Court couldn't/shouldn't make unwarranted demands for communicant members or others to share their financial secrets with them, especially if this is unexpected. There would have to be a different "culture" in this area of finance and giving and the role of the Diaconate than there is in many churches, or the churches I'm familiar with.



Indeed. It _would_ require a different culture. But then, shouldn't the church be exactly that in many respects?


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## Peairtach (Jan 3, 2011)

> Indeed. It would require a different culture. But then, shouldn't the church be exactly that in many respects?



Exactly. Part of the cultural problem is that it is the State - at least in Britain, and many other countries - that takes the leading role as nanny, in the realm of HEW.

Re tithing, I believe we should be learning lessons from the voluntary tithing of Abraham and Jacob, but it is also interesting to remember that they were tithing long before the time of Christ, setting an example to us, who have an even clearer appreciation of what God has done for us in Christ and for more generous giving to Christ's Cause and Kingdom.

General-eschatalogically speaking, we are also much further on our way to the Heavenly Eschatalogical Kingdom than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so with all these things, we have good motives for seeking to give at least a tithe to our Priest-King, if possible, as a general weekly or monthly guide.


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## Semiomniscient (Jan 4, 2011)

Rich Koster said:


> St Jude's? I'd do a little research about how they came about before endorsing giving to them .


 
Well I'm grateful that God used them to save my sister-in-law's life. So my wife and I choose to give to them.

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Jack K said:


> I suspect your friend will not be helped by having the issue of "what counts" settled for her in a rulebook sort of way, no matter which way the ruling goes. Can you explain that her heart is the real issue, and a heart capured by the Savior will result in the sort of giving where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and this sort of question starts to feel less important?



I think you're right on this account. She struggles with psychological issues, as well as spiritual ones. She also apparently grew up in a quasi-legalistic Baptist household... She's struggling being a Christian period, and kind of fragile to begin with, so I'm trying to be as tactful and careful as I can.

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Tripel said:


> James,
> I think you need to steer your OP into a specific direction. Do you want this thread to debate whether or not a tithe is required of today's Christian? If so, that's fine. But if you're wanting to determine what all "counts" toward the tithe, you probably need to clarify that this thread is aimed at those who subscribe to a tithe.



I didn't mean for this to be a debate actually. (I don't think the New Testament requires tithing, but I think that the old 10% is a good guideline in general--unless you can afford more). It was just something that came up in a religious conversation that I haven't actually discussed much. I didn't want to debate whether to tithe or not with my friend. I think if one believes they ought to tithe, then they should. 
So I guess, I want to address it from a perspective of how to answer "what counts" to those who ascribe to required tithing. I've gotten some good answers so far it appears.

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KMK said:


> It sounds like this is one of those gnats that nominal Christians debate in order to avoid bigger problems. If she is only a nominal Christian then use these opportunities to steer her toward the Gospel.



AGREED! My wife will have more success than I will, I believe. I made mention of the fact that tithing does not excuse us from attending worship services... and that she's invited to come with us to our church. But since she asked me the question directly, I wasn't going to deflect it without some sort of answer.


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