# Complete power to not sin



## Walkthecalling (Jun 15, 2009)

At my church, we are going through Romans, and we covered Romans 6:3-10 yesterday. Of my pastor's three points he included the Christian's new and complete power against sin. He said that we have been given the power to not sin, the power to control all of our sin. That a Christian can - not sin. He said it was a complete power through the Holy Spirit. The ramifications of that are paramount, I believe. Do we have complete control over all sin? Is it possible for a man to be holy, after his conversion? I understand justification, but is it complete until we die? Since sanctification is a process can we truly ever be holy? I have always assumed that we will fight sin, as a losing battle until glory. It is the fight that matters and that we are daily seeking God's help to fight our own sin, but we are so fallen that we will die on the battlefield. Anyone have thoughts?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 15, 2009)

Walkthecalling said:


> At my church, we are going through Romans, and we covered Romans 6:3-10 yesterday. Of my pastor's three points he included the Christian's new and complete power against sin. He said that we have been given the power to not sin, the power to control all of our sin. That a Christian can - not sin. He said it was a complete power through the Holy Spirit. The ramifications of that are paramount, I believe. Do we have complete control over all sin? Is it possible for a man to be holy, after his conversion? I understand justification, but is it complete until we die? Since sanctification is a process can we truly ever be holy? I have always assumed that we will fight sin, as a losing battle until glory. It is the fight that matters and that we are daily seeking God's help to fight our own sin, but we are so fallen that we will die on the battlefield. Anyone have thoughts?



Justification is once and for all. It never changes because it is based upon the righteousness of Christ. We are forever righteous in God's sight once we are justified. 

Sanctification is a process. Yes we are free from the power of sin, in the sense that we are no longer slaves to it. But we are not free from it's pollution or influence yet. That is a process that will take the rest of our lives, and it is only complete when our bodies die and our souls go to be with Christ. Fighting sin is never a losing battle when we are trusting in Christ to sanctify us, though it is a hard fought battle, and we do often stumble. But over time we do in fact grow in our obedience, even though our best works in this life are tainted with sin. Peter refers to this process as "refining" our faith. It's made more pure over time, but never made perfect until we go to be with Christ. 
As our Shorter Catechism says (Q35), "Sanctification is the work of God's free grace whereby, we are renewed after the image of God in the whole man, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin and live unto righteousness."


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## OPC'n (Jun 15, 2009)

1 John says that if you say you have no sin then you lie and the truth is not in you. My childhood church believed the same heresy and believed that you would only go to heaven if you were perfect and without sin. The leader of that cult actually thinks he is without sin. We will all sin until the day we die.


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## Walkthecalling (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks Patrick. What I get from your thoughts is that we can still never be completely holy here. I understand justification is an instant & forever. But like our true salvation we don't experience it until death correct? It is all our future. We are justified, but untit we die that justification is "unused." Meaning, like salvation, when we are called to glory then we are saved and justified by Christ's redeeming work. But our sanctification is a process for now. I never meant to say a losing battle in that sin is stronger than the Holy Spirit, just that we are so corrupted that we even sin in our prayers. Wasn't it Bunyan that said "there is enough sin in my best prayers to damn me to hell for eternity"? If we have a "complete" power to indeed not sin then the influence or pollution of sin, would indeed be completely ovecomeable. I also realize that scripture says "be perfect or holy, as I am perfect or holy". That is a command but I always understood it as an unachievable goal that we are to pursue with all vigor, but in the end fail and need justification. I worry that this thought process to an extreme is a forethought of monatiscism.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 15, 2009)

Walkthecalling said:


> Thanks Patrick. What I get from your thoughts is that we can still never be completely holy here. I understand justification is an instant & forever. But like our true salvation we don't experience it until death correct? It is all our future. We are justified, but untit we die that justification is "unused."



Not quite. You probably already know most of this, but bear with me as I try to clarify what I meant. Justification is not future. It happens the moment we are brought to faith. It's something that happens outside of us, in God's courtroom. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and we are declared righteous forever. The final judgment has already been rendered the moment we believe. Theologians call this objective justification. 

But, it is also something we experience. God communicates to our conscience that we have been justified and that all our sins are forgiven. Theologians calls this subjective justification. When we come to faith, God communicates to us through teh Holy Spirit that we have been made right with him, he has forgiven our sins, and adopted us as his children. 

This is important to understand, because without a proper understanding of justification, you won't have a proper motivation for sanctification. 



> Meaning, like salvation, when we are called to glory then we are saved and justified by Christ's redeeming work. But our sanctification is a process for now. I never meant to say a losing battle in that sin is stronger than the Holy Spirit, just that we are so corrupted that we even sin in our prayers. Wasn't it Bunyan that said "there is enough sin in my best prayers to damn me to hell for eternity"? If we have a "complete" power to indeed not sin then the influence or pollution of sin, would indeed be completely ovecomeable. I also realize that scripture says "be perfect or holy, as I am perfect or holy". That is a command but I always understood it as an unachievable goal that we are to pursue with all vigor, but in the end fail and need justification. I worry that this thought process to an extreme is a forethought of monatiscism.



Again, justification happens the moment you believe, not future. If you believe that justification is only future, then that will lead you into monasticism or legalism of some kind. 

The reason we move forward in sanctification and fight against sin is because we have been justified already. God has graciously accepted us apart from our works, he has forgiven our sins because of what Christ did for us, and he has adopted us as one of his own special children and stored up an inheritance for us. It's all a gift of grace. And on top of that, he has given us a new nature and the Holy Spirit, all which desires to love God as our Father and please him, not in order to gain his favor (we already have that in justification), but because we love him and are grateful for his salvation. And if that's the case, then how could we continue in sin any longer? 

That's the main idea in Paul's argument in Romans 6. God's done all the work for us, he's doing the work in us, so why continue to live in sin as if none of that work has taken place? If we are truly grateful to Jesus Christ, and truly love him for who he is and what he has done for us, then we will live in such a way that will please him. We belong to him. And he has given us access to all the resources we need to fight against sin, so why not use them? We are never forced into sin. 1 Cor 10:13 _No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it_. We only sin when we give in to those sinful desires lingering from the old man. And God is working in us and through us to purify us and make us more holy in practice. We see this idea in 2 Cor 4:16-17 _Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all_. 

So yes, we are still contaminated by sin in every aspect of our lives until death, but we are also being purified in every aspect of our lives. Yes, sin is there, but it should be diminishing in influence, the pollution is being diluted by the washing of the Spirit. We should be holier at our death than we were at our conversion. But, remember that sanctification is God's work. He knows where we need refining the most. So as we use the means of grace he has provided (preaching and reading Scripture, prayer, fellowship, sacraments, etc.) he grows us and purifies us as he sees fit, and brings the right kind of trials into our lives to refine us the way we need it. This will vary for every Christian. 

Hopefully that is clearer...


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## Marrow Man (Jun 15, 2009)

> He said that we have been given the power *to not sin*...



Did he say anything about the power not to split infinitives?


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## Walkthecalling (Jun 15, 2009)

Hey Patrick,
Thanks for the thoughts and clarification. I understand what you mean. I agree completely with the instant adoption and immediate justification. I guess my thought was undeveloped in that sense. So, would it be agreeable to say that I have been justified from all future sin at that time as well? So when I am justified by God, it is all encompassing both of past sin and future sin, so it isn't an active justifying of sin as we are sanctified. Is that right? 
I understand your point on Romans 6. But I guess it was the wording that through me off. I would completely agree that we need to "walk our calling."  
I didn't mean that since we are waiting on a future justification, our works now can reduce the justification needed or that we can live good enough now. 
Patrick, would you say that there is a Biblical possibility that we could keep from sinning? If we believed in our adoption, wanted to obey Christ, etc. could we ever be holy here? 

-----Added 6/15/2009 at 12:44:09 EST-----



Marrow Man said:


> > He said that we have been given the power *to not sin*...
> 
> 
> 
> Did he say anything about the power not to split infinitives?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 15, 2009)

Walkthecalling said:


> Hey Patrick,
> Thanks for the thoughts and clarification. I understand what you mean. I agree completely with the instant adoption and immediate justification. I guess my thought was undeveloped in that sense. So, would it be agreeable to say that I have been justified from all future sin at that time as well? So when I am justified by God, it is all encompassing both of past sin and future sin, so it isn't an active justifying of sin as we are sanctified. Is that right?


Yes. Justification is not a process. It's an act. The Shorter Catechism says it well, "Justification is an act of God's free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone." He has pardoned ALL our sin the moment we believe. Our justification permanently changes our relationship to God from one of sinner to Judge, to one of son to Father. 

So when we sin after we become Christians, we do not lose our justification or require another act of justification. We do not stop being sons or need to be made sons again. By sinning, we bring on ourselves God's fatherly displeasure, and he does not communicate to us his fatherly approval until we repent, confess, and seek his forgiveness. That's one way he sanctifies us. 

The Westminster Confession says it better in chapter 11.5, "God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance." 



> I understand your point on Romans 6. But I guess it was the wording that through me off. I would completely agree that we need to "walk our calling."
> I didn't mean that since we are waiting on a future justification, our works now can reduce the justification needed or that we can live good enough now.
> Patrick, would you say that there is a Biblical possibility that we could keep from sinning? If we believed in our adoption, wanted to obey Christ, etc. could we ever be holy here?


No, there is no possiblity to keep from sinning completely in this life. Our human nature is being transformed and restored gradually. We sin because we still have desires to sin. But we are no longer slaves to sin. Our sinful nature is no longer a chain to our feet but a limp in our walk. That corruption still remains and it still warps every good thing we do. As long as the sinful desire remains, the reality of sin continues until that old influence is completely dead with the death of our body. But even our imperfect good works are accepted by God on behalf of Christ. Christ secured our place in God's family and favor. As we grow in our maturity and produce more good works that are gradually more pure, he is pleased with our progress and accepts them for Christ's sake, and lets us know that he is pleased. Hope that helps. 

I would recommend reading Westminster Confession chapter's 11, 12, and 13 for a good summary of all this with appropriate Scripture references.


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## Idelette (Jun 15, 2009)

Walkthecalling said:


> Hey Patrick,
> 
> Patrick, would you say that there is a Biblical possibility that we could keep from sinning? If we believed in our adoption, wanted to obey Christ, etc. could we ever be holy here?



I also just wanted to add, that although we now have the ability to live righteously in the sight of God, we still have the ability to sin as well. It is only until the last enemy, death, is abolished.... when we live as glorified beings with the Lord that we will no longer be tempted or able to sin. Part of death is the full casting off sin and its nature. This is why we must all die.


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## rbcbob (Jun 15, 2009)

I have forgotten the Latin but the old theologians framed it this way:

Pre-Fall .... Man was *able to sin*
Post-Fall, Pre-regenerate ... Man is *not able not to sin*
Post-fall, Post-regenerate ...Man is *able not to sin*
Post-Fall, Post-regenerate, Post-mortem ...Man is *not able to sin*


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## jaybird0827 (Jun 15, 2009)

Walkthecalling said:


> At my church, we are going through Romans, and we covered Romans 6:3-10 yesterday. Of my pastor's three points he included the Christian's new and complete power against sin. He said that we have been given the power to not sin, the power to control all of our sin. That a Christian can - not sin. He said it was a complete power through the Holy Spirit. The ramifications of that are paramount, I believe. Do we have complete control over all sin? Is it possible for a man to be holy, after his conversion? I understand justification, but is it complete until we die? Since sanctification is a process can we truly ever be holy? I have always assumed that we will fight sin, as a losing battle until glory. It is the fight that matters and that we are daily seeking God's help to fight our own sin, but we are so fallen that we will die on the battlefield. Anyone have thoughts?



Paul describes his own struggle with sin in Romans 7. This puts Romans 6 in context.

Elsewhere in the NT Paul terms himself chief of sinners, using the present tense [KJV]I Timothy 1:15[/KJV]. Note the context here as well, [KJV]I Timothy 1:15-17[/KJV].


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## Edward (Jun 15, 2009)

rbcbob said:


> I have forgotten the Latin but the old theologians framed it this way:
> 
> Pre-Fall .... Man was *able to sin*
> Post-Fall, Pre-regenerate ... Man is *not able not to sin*
> ...



If I can expand on that a bit

Pre-fall -- able to not sin -- able to sin
Post fall-- able to sin -- not able to not sin
Regenerate-- able to sin -- able to not sin
Glorified-- not able to sin -- able to not sin


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