# Spong still at it



## SolaSaint

Bishop John Shelby Spong, "Why Christianity as We Know It is Dying" - YouTube

I thought this guy was retired but no, he is still on a speaking tour at times to churches that will allow such garbage within God's house. If you can stomach the whole video you will hear the audience laughing at God and His word. Spong obviously has figured out the Christian faith 2000 years after it started and history has had it completely wrong all this time. I cannot imaging any church letting this guy in their door. How many of these Jesus Seminar guys are doing this still? An even better question is, how many churches in America believe this junk? I really don't know. Is there a lot of these churches today? Spong has the lowest view of God and the highest view of man of anyone I've ever heard and he calls himself a minister in the church. WOW! In a second video he slams the church for speaking against homosexuality. He says the church hasn't listened to modern scholarship on the issue. He places more emphasis on Oprah than the All Mighty. He calls God a monster. He says we are moving towards human perfection, that Darwin was right. I'm listening to the second video and may write a response if this goes anywhere.


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## SolaSaint

I watched the second video..simply put, he's crazy.


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## Marrow Man

I was present in 2006 when Spong debated James White. When Spong is challenged, he is actually pretty embarrassing. Here is an example from that debate:

[video=youtube_share;563jJbf9DKY]http://youtu.be/563jJbf9DKY[/video]


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## THE W

pretty much


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## ZackF

Spong sees himself as a change agent. Society and liberal church have and are going the way he wants. He's proud of that. He takes himself and his legacy with extreme reverential seriousness but disdains God's Word as an archaic joke. Believers and serious students of the Word are the other way around. James White, since he has already been brought up in the thread, is an example of proper seriousness. White laughs and pokes fun at his own folly and missteps but when it comes to Scripture and the things of God he is sober and serious as a judge. White trusts the finished work of Our Lord, while Spong dismisses the notion altogether.


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## MarieP

Marrow Man said:


> I was present in 2006 when Spong debated James White. When Spong is challenged, he is actually pretty embarrassing.



I totally forgot you were there too! Yeah, it did not go well for Spong...


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## SolaSaint

If you were to place a percentage on the amount of churches in America that follow this extremely liberal view of God, what would that be? Is this something to worry about or is Spong the Lone Ranger on this type of theology? I went to the home page of this church in Springfield, MO that he spoke at and pulled their statement of beliefs:About Us - Community Christian Church of Springfield, MO

How many people are in our communities that we are unaware of that have these beliefs? I don't understand what keeps them in church if it is all postmodern relativism. Why call it a church?


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## Marrow Man

MarieP said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was present in 2006 when Spong debated James White. When Spong is challenged, he is actually pretty embarrassing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally forgot you were there too! Yeah, it did not go well for Spong...
Click to expand...


That's ok -- I forgot you were there too!


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## SolaSaint

Marrow Man said:


> MarieP said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was present in 2006 when Spong debated James White. When Spong is challenged, he is actually pretty embarrassing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally forgot you were there too! Yeah, it did not go well for Spong...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's ok -- I forgot you were there too!
Click to expand...


Tim,

Where was the debate and how was the audience? Was there any Spong supporters there? I'm sorry I just have a hard time believing there are people who believe this stuff.


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## MarieP

SolaSaint said:


> Tim,
> 
> Where was the debate and how was the audience? Was there any Spong supporters there? I'm sorry I just have a hard time believing there are people who believe this stuff.



In Orlando, FL on Nov. 3rd, 2006.

A few others and I tried to keep a blog of the debate and the conference. Unfortunately, the internet connection in the hotel was horrible, so we only got two posts from the debate. And I don't know what happened to the formatting- you'll have to highlight the page to read it- the text is there...

2006 Alpha & Omega Pulpit Crimes Conference and Cruise: Opening Statement: John Shelby Spong

2006 Alpha & Omega Pulpit Crimes Conference and Cruise: Opening Statement: James White


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## SolaSaint

Marie,

Did your jaw hit the ground while listening to Spong? I would find it hard to not laugh at his remarks. I think James was having a difficult time hiding his astonishment when Spong kept yarning his beliefs. If you want to really hear his amazingly worldview, listen to the second video from this Community Christian Church. He goes on a lecture for about 10 minutes on how we evolved from nothing and without the Divine. I was laughing out loud at 1:00 AM. 

Was there any Spong supporters at the debate? Is there really anyone who follows this guy, besides the congregation at this Springfield, MO church?


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## MarieP

SolaSaint said:


> Did your jaw hit the ground while listening to Spong? I would find it hard to not laugh at his remarks. I think James was having a difficult time hiding his astonishment when Spong kept yarning his beliefs. If you want to really hear his amazingly worldview, listen to the second video from this Community Christian Church. He goes on a lecture for about 10 minutes on how we evolved from nothing and without the Divine. I was laughing out loud at 1:00 AM.
> 
> Was there any Spong supporters at the debate? Is there really anyone who follows this guy, besides the congregation at this Springfield, MO church?
> 
> Rick



There were Spong supporters at the debate, but I honestly don't remember much of how they reacted. I heard that a few picked up James White and Jeff Neill's Same Sex Controversy- I pray that God used it for their enlightenment and salvation! I do remember being shocked at how unprepared Spong was in the debate. But then again, I guess I shouldn't be shocked. It's sad because of how blind the man is to the truth. One in his position has to suppress a whole lot!


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## Philip

SolaSaint said:


> If you were to place a percentage on the amount of churches in America that follow this extremely liberal view of God, what would that be? Is this something to worry about or is Spong the Lone Ranger on this type of theology?



This, sadly, is where many of the historic mainline churches have headed. Spong is representative of the direction that his own Episcopal Church is heading and because of that, it is hemorrhaging its conservative members and churches. Any time I hear anything he says, I think of this exchange from Lewis's _The Great Divorce_:



> "Ah, Dick, I shall never forget some of our talks. I expect you've changed your views a bit since then. You became rather narrow-minded towards the end of your life: but no doubt you've broadened out
> again."
> "How do you mean?"
> "Well, it's obvious by now, isn't it, that you weren't quite right. Why, my dear boy, you were coming to believe in a literal Heaven and Hell!"
> "But wasn't I right?"
> "Oh, in a spiritual sense, to be sure. I still believe in them in that way. I am still, my dear boy, looking for the Kingdom. But nothing superstitious or mythological. . . ."
> "Excuse me. Where do you imagine you've been?"
> "Ah, I see. You mean that the grey town with its continual hope of morning (we must all live by hope, must we not?), with its field for indefinite progress, is, in a sense, Heaven, if only we have eyes to see it? That is a beautiful idea."
> "I didn't mean that at all. Is it possible you don't know where you've been?"
> "Now that you mention it, I don't think we ever do give it a name. What do you call it?"
> "We call it Hell."
> "There is no need to be profane, my dear boy. I may not be very orthodox, in your sense of that
> word, but I do feel that these matters ought to be discussed simply, and seriously, and reverently."
> "Discuss Hell reverently? I meant what I said. You have been in Hell . . . You went there because you are an apostate."
> "Are you serious, Dick? . . Do you really think people are penalised for their honest opinions? Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that those opinions were mistaken."
> "Do you really think there are no sins of intellect?"
> "There are indeed, Dick. There is hidebound prejudice, and intellectual dishonesty, and timidity, and stagnation. But honest opinions fearlessly followed-they are not sins."
> "I know we used to talk that way. I did it too until the end of my life when I became what you call
> narrow. It all turns on what are honest opinions."
> "Mine certainly were. They were not only honest but heroic. I asserted them fearlessly. When the doctrine of the Resurrection ceased to commend itself to the critical faculties which God had given me, I openly rejected it. I preached my famous sermon. I defied the whole chapter. I took every risk."
> 
> "What risk? What was at all likely to come of it except what actually came-popularity, sales for your books, invitations, and finally a bishopric? . . . Let us be frank. Our opinions were not honestly come by. We simply found ourselves in contact with a certain current of ideas and plunged into it because it seemed modern and successful. . . When did we put up one moment's real resistance to the loss of our faith? . . You know that you and I were playing with loaded dice. We didn't want the other to be true. We were afraid of crude salvationism, afraid of a breach with the spirit of the age, afraid of ridicule, afraid (above all) of real spiritual fears and hopes. . . Having allowed oneself to drift, unresisting, unpraying, accepting every half-conscious solicitation from our desires, we reached a point where we no longer believed the Faith. . . If that's what you mean by sincerity they are sincere, and so were ours. But errors which are sincere in that sense are not innocent."
> . . . "Well, this is extremely interesting," said the Episcopal Ghost. "It's a point of view. Certainly, it's a
> point of view. In the meantime . . ."
> "There is no meantime," replied the other.
> "AH that is over. We are not playing now. . . You have seen Hell: you are in sight of Heaven. Will you, even now, repent and believe?"
> "I'm not sure that I've got the exact point you are trying to make," said the Ghost.
> "I am not trying to make any point," said the Spirit. "I am telling you to repent and believe."



The dialogue continues, but you get the point.


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## davdavis

THE W said:


> pretty much



Spong is really quite a sad story. He is spending his life in a desperate race to keep on the cutting edge of theological liberalism, Always having to go one step further to look trendy. When he finally stops whether through death or inability to carry on he will soon be as forgotten as Bishop Pike from the 60s.

Your clown reminded me of William Buckley's quote referring to Andrew Young being made UN ambassador. "Who's better in a circus than a clown?" It applies perfectly to Spong and the Episcopal Church.

David Davis
PCA 
Montgomery, AL
http://ddav-mynewsandviews.blogspot.com/


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## SolaSaint

I guess Spong sees himself as a 21st century Martin Luther:

http://reform-network.net/?p=2054

Have you ever read his New Reformation Thesis?


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## MarieP

SolaSaint said:


> I guess Spong sees himself as a 21st century Martin Luther:



Does he even know who Luther was? We were all shocked when Dr. White mentioned J. C. Ryle, and Spong answered, "Who is that???"


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## SolaSaint

MarieP said:


> SolaSaint said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Spong sees himself as a 21st century Martin Luther:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does he even know who Luther was? We were all shocked when Dr. White mentioned J. C. Ryle, and Spong answered, "Who is that???"
Click to expand...


Well since he doesn't know who Jesus is, I guess knowing Luther doesn't really matter.


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## MarieP

SolaSaint said:


> Well since he doesn't know who Jesus is, I guess knowing Luther doesn't really matter.



True 'nuff!


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## ZackF

MarieP said:


> SolaSaint said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Spong sees himself as a 21st century Martin Luther:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does he even know who Luther was? We were all shocked when Dr. White mentioned J. C. Ryle, and Spong answered, "Who is that???"
Click to expand...


The late Dave Hunt said something similar to White about how he, Hunt, was "rather ignorant" of the Refomers. This was in the context of debating Calvinism.


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## Captain Picard

Heh, and then said later that he "knew more about Calvinism than most of the folks calling themselves Calvinists". You know "because he'd read all the relevant books".


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