# History of the MDiv



## wallingj (Jun 29, 2009)

I am wondering when and where did the MDiv degree spring from? Also, is our current MDiv degree program similiar to the MA degree that many Puritan pastors had? While teaching a Sunday School class on the history of the Puritans, many of them just had a MA, have not yet found one with an MDiv, so I have concluded it must have come about sometime after the early 1700s.


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## chbrooking (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't know the details, but I believe it was a BDiv. Then when accreditation came along and established a "core", they had to move it to a Masters level program.


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## SemperEruditio (Jun 29, 2009)

The typical degree inflation that happens in the US.

Physician Assistant (PA) used to be undergraduate certificates. When schools saw the trend these got bumped up to undergraduate degrees, then graduate certificates and now they are full fledged graduate degrees. It went from men/women with medical experience such as medics/corpsman/paramedics to now medical secretaries or no experience at all. Some community colleges are still holding out but we are talking about 3-4 at the most. Same thing I suspect happened with the BDiv to now MDiv. We love our degrees in the US.


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## Wayne (Jun 29, 2009)

The Bachelor of Divinity degree used to be awarded up until about the early 1960's. It used to be that you could go directly from high school to seminary, and thus the B.Div. I have even recently seen where one seminary still grants that degree. 

But as seminaries were requiring men to have a college diploma for admission, it was only a matter of time until someone finally realized that the seminary degree should reflect it's being post-college. So we have the M.Div.

When that changeover took place in the 60's (and I'm not so dated as to be speaking from personal experience!), former graduates with the B.Div. in hand were given the opportunity to have their B.Div. degrees remapped as M.Div. degrees. Not sure if some schools went so far as to produce new diplomas for them, but at least on paper they could switch over.


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## Michael Butterfield (Jun 29, 2009)

Much of what has already been said about the M.Div. is correct. I will only add that the M.Div. is a degree that has come about in the 20th century and did take the place of the BD. It is also one of the results of the professionalization of the ministry. It became "needed" to have advanced degrees partly because the people in our congregations were becoming more educated. The pastorate was also being increasingly seen as a profession or maybe more accurately it became necessary to see it as a profession, since much of what pastors used to do were being done by so called professionals. This can be seen particularly in the area of the counseling professions. Consequently, the M.Div. is only a professional degree something like an MBA. The M.Div. is not an academic degree; it is really a glorified BA. This is why you cannot simply make the transition into an academic degree on the Ph.D. level in an automatic fashion in many institutions. They do not recognize it as an academic degree and generally has only the credentialing status for an ecclesiastical body. Consequently, the M.Div. will often suffice for an ecclesiastical institutions if you want to do advanced studies.


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## wallingj (Jun 29, 2009)

I am inquiring mostly out of curiosity, but also because I am pursuing a MAR, instead of an MDiv. I am pursuing the MAR for personal reasons. Was curious why reformed denominations only accepts an MDiv, and not a MAR\MAT, etc for ordination as a pastor. From the above answer it appears before the 60s, the MA was a more advanced degree. Just wondering since from a historical perspective MA degrees is what the Puritan devines had.


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## cbryant (Jun 29, 2009)

I have seen men in the PCA/OPC ordained without an M.Div degree. It's rare, but I've seen it. If they were a senior pastor, then typically they would have a Th.M or Ph.D to go along with it. I've seen churches that have had associate pastors with just an M.A. The Book of Church order for the PCA does not explicity state that one must have a Master of Divinity but rather have complete a prescribed course of study (with languages). So it is possible to be ordained without an M.Div (or BD) but one should be prepared to jump through a few more hoops.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jun 29, 2009)

The MDiv came about in about 1970, perhaps a few years before in some institutions. This was about the same time law schools started issuing a JD rather than a BL or LLB. In the US and Canada, both BD and BL degrees typically required completion of another Bachelor’s degree prior to admission to these second-entry professional degrees. While law schools went to a professional doctorate, seminaries made their BD a professional master’s degree and added the D.Min as a professional doctorate.

A MAR is not equivalent to a graduate school MA. These are typically scaled down versions of the MDiv, without some of the ministry specific professional courses, requiring about two-thirds the course work as an MDiv. A ThM is a graduate research degree, with greater academic standing than a D.Min.

While the MDiv, M.Div, and JD are professional degrees, so is the MD.

Those Puritans with MA’s, earned these in the British system which then and now differs from the North American system.


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## wallingj (Jun 29, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> The MDiv came about in about 1970, perhaps
> 
> Those Puritans with MA’s, earned these in the British system which then and now differs from the North American system.



That is what I am curious about how have the programs from the one the Puritans attended compared to the programs being offered today at the Universities and Seminaries. Again, I am taking the MAR for personal reasons not for ministry preparation, the reason I am disclosing this is because I do not want individuals believe I am whining. Just really interested in the changes that have occurred since the Puritans to now. Which brings up another interesting question where and when did seminaries spring up from?


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## Romans922 (Jun 29, 2009)

Now women can get an MDiv degree.


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## Wayne (Jun 29, 2009)

Andrew:

Covenant allows women to enroll in the M.Div. program, but prohibits them from taking the homiletics courses. 

Do you know of any of the conservative seminaries that have no such restriction?


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## brianeschen (Jun 29, 2009)

Wayne said:


> Andrew:
> 
> Covenant allows women to enroll in the M.Div. program, but prohibits them from taking the homiletics courses.
> 
> Do you know of any of the conservative seminaries that have no such restriction?


I believe my pastor had to absent himself in one of his preaching courses at RTS in North Carolina because of this problem. I don't think Andrew brought this up though.


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## Romans922 (Jun 29, 2009)

The first point I was making in bringing this topic up was that even if they are absent from Homelitcs, they are still getting the degree. And you can go ask Covenant admissions or faculty there when those women graduate with the MDiv how many then go and become 'pastors' because they got their MDiv.

The other point I was making is that MDiv is specifically a degree to train (academically) Pastors/Ministers/Missionaries and no one else. RTS does the same thing, allowing women to enroll and graduate under MDiv degree. Some of those women then go into liberal denominations and become Pastors having received the MDiv 'Stamp of approval'.



Does that make sense, as to why I brought up the point?



Wayne, thanks for all your work!!! Reading all the things you have on the website has helped me immensely with Presbyterian Polity.


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## R. Scott Clark (Jun 30, 2009)

The MA degrees of the 16th-17th centuries weren't necessarily earned. In some cases they were but in some cases the BA degree "matured" to an MA. I believe it's still that way at Oxford today. By contrast, the MPhil is an earned degree. The bachelor's degrees, BA and BD and BB (Bachelor of the Bible) and BS (Bachelor of the Sentences) were earned. In some universities there was an earned MA on the way to the doctoral degree. It varied. 

The MDiv is a fairly recent creature. It is partly the response to the trend of professionalization and specialization (including accreditation). In the 70s the old WTS BD morphed to an MDiv and those who had BDs were given an opportunity to upgrade their degrees by trading their BD diplomas or so I've heard. Some whom I know did not do it because they wanted the original signatures. 

Today the quality of MDiv degrees varies widely. Some are little more than a a series of advanced sunday school classes and others are very old school, serious degrees. The WSC MDiv falls into the latter class. It's true that the MDiv from some schools is an impediment to further study but it's not so everywhere. About 70% of our students are MDiv and they are able to go on to graduate work, if they wish, because grad schools recognize the quality of our MDiv program. Over the years WTS and WSC have essentially an expanded (added ST and PT courses) version of the BD program designed by Machen and the original WTS faculty in '29.

I don't know that WTS ever accepted high school students but I believe the RE sem in Phila did and they may yet, I don't know. One reason I doubt that WTS accepted high schoolers is because the first class came from Princeton and I believe all those men had BA degrees. Further, Greek and Hebrew have always been regarded as "propaedeutic" at WTS/WSC, i.e., the incoming student was expected to have learned those in University as part of the BA. WTS/WSC only offered them as a concession to the weakness of the flesh. Today we offer several other "remedial" classes and virtually no one comes with Hebrew prior to sem and a handful come with Greek. I think the old WTS catalogue even said something about Latin (which could be reasonably expected back then) but I may be mistaken. Today, even those with some Greek have no Latin.


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## SemperEruditio (Jun 30, 2009)

That ridiculous! Women are allowed to take the M.Div but not allowed to take the homiletics courses. What do the adcoms think they are going to do once they graduate with the M.Div? I guess a school cannot stop from allowing a woman to enroll in their program but that is just ridiculous.


Met a pastor who lives close to RTS-Orlando. He is not reformed but sends his interns there for seminary. He tells them _you'll get a great education, but you have to be careful cuz they teach some crazy stuff at RTS!_


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## wallingj (Jun 30, 2009)

R. Scott Clark said:


> The MA degrees of the 16th-17th centuries weren't necessarily earned. In some cases they were but in some cases the BA degree "matured" to an MA. I believe it's still that way at Oxford today. By contrast, the MPhil is an earned degree. The bachelor's degrees, BA and BD and BB (Bachelor of the Bible) and BS (Bachelor of the Sentences) were earned. In some universities there was an earned MA on the way to the doctoral degree. It varied.


What do you mean matured, how did a degree from a BA mature to an MA? This great information thank you so much!


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## The Mexican Puritan (Jul 1, 2009)

Go to Wikipedia and look up 'Oxbridge MA'


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## Myshkin (Jul 14, 2009)

Dr. Clark,

You stated:

"Today the quality of MDiv degrees varies widely. Some are little more than a a series of advanced sunday school classes and others are very old school, serious degrees. The WSC MDiv falls into the latter class."

Which particular seminaries are you referring to that offer an MDiv at a level just above advanced Sunday school classes and are not serious?

As one examining options for seminary, this information would be quite helpful. 

And how do _you_ define a quality education exactly as it regards seminary?

Thanks.


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