# The United States of America



## CalvinandHodges (Apr 21, 2009)

Greetings:

Is the United States of America a Christian Nation from its conception? Is it "departing from its Christian roots?" or, Has it never been a Christian nation, and is simply following the Deist/Enlightenment thinking of the Founding Fathers?

Why, or, Why not?

My own denomination teaches that the United States was never a Christian Nation.

Blessings,

Rob


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## CDM (Apr 21, 2009)

Please define: Christian nation.

Without definition "yes" or "no" are on equal footing.


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## Knoxienne (Apr 21, 2009)




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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 21, 2009)

No in the sense that the USA does not recognize Christ as King.


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## Montanablue (Apr 21, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


>





Do you mean did the founders _intend_ for this to be a Christian nation? Because that is a very long and complicated question - and there's not a "yes or no" answer.


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## Tim (Apr 21, 2009)




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## Skyler (Apr 21, 2009)

I don't think there is such a thing as a "Christian" nation.

People are Christians. Nations aren't. That was one of the changes of the New Covenant.


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## coramdeo (Apr 21, 2009)

*The Light and the Glory*

I think the idea that the founders were all deist is misplaced. Have you read Peter Marshall's "The Light and the Glory"? There is an excerpt in it from George Washington's prayer diary. He certainly was no deist! I thought I had that quote on my computer so I could insert it here, but it's gone. Paraphrased it went something like...' Oh Lord forgive me for the weak and imperfect performance of my duties of this week. I have prayed and read thy word, but with such deadness of spirit that my prayers stand in need of repentance . Forgive me and cover my sins under the blood of thy dear Son..." etc. ,etc.
Some founders may have been deist (Franklin?), but not George ,by george! From this book's perspective America was founded as a Christian nation. additionally I remember a quote from American history where patriots were sloganing "No King , but Jesus!". While the intent was not to set up a theorcy, the spirit was there


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## BertMulder (Apr 21, 2009)

it was definely not a 'Christian' nation. It was a nation born in rebellion against God given authority.

some of the founders were, from all appearances, Christian, such as Washington and Adams.

Not Jefferson and Franklin...


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## OPC'n (Apr 21, 2009)

No, it wasn't nor is now a Christian nation....just a nation with some Christians in it.


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## sastark (Apr 21, 2009)

BertMulder said:


> it was definely not a 'Christian' nation. It was a nation born in rebellion against God given authority.




Pshhh....Canadian. 

But, to the OP, despite the great work done by Gary DeMar to show Christian influences in the founding documents of our nation (and I believe DeMar is right: there are Christian influences in those documents), the United States was never a "Christian nation", but it was a "nation founded by Christians". in my opinion, Diesm, while not being the majority religious view of the Founding Fathers, wielded a great influence on them. The fact that the "Creator" is the one endowing us with inalienable rights, and not the God of Scripture is evidence of diestic influence (among other things).


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## DMcFadden (Apr 21, 2009)

Of course it was not a "Christian nation" for all of the aforementioned reasons. And, at the time of the revolution, church attendance figures were not terribly impressive either. However, from a philosophical/worldview perspective, the founders shared a good deal in common with Christian theism. The secularization of the culture, hostility to the Gospel, elevation of diversity and inclusion to the level of sacred cows, and rise of a positive law approach to the constitution have all tended to pit the culture against the faith in ways that are more than a little uncomfortable. 

Looked at with a view to the sweep of history, I'm not sure that this is all that bad for us to be in a position of greater wariness and watchfulness. The theological failure of broad evangelicalism and the shallowing of the church could hardly get much worse. Perhaps a period of adversarial relations between church and society will force us to take our faith more seriously? 

Humanly speaking, I fear for my grandchildren and what they will experience. However, my Calvinism teaches me to trust in the good providence of an all wise God who knows what he is doing in history.


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## BertMulder (Apr 21, 2009)

sastark said:


> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> > it was definely not a 'Christian' nation. It was a nation born in rebellion against God given authority.
> ...


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## sastark (Apr 21, 2009)

BertMulder said:


> sastark said:
> 
> 
> > BertMulder said:
> ...



I was hoping my comment would be taken in the light hearted manner it was intended to be taken in.


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## Hamalas (Apr 21, 2009)

coramdeo said:


> I think the idea that the founders were all deist is misplaced. Have you read Peter Marshall's "The Light and the Glory"? There is an excerpt in it from George Washington's prayer diary. He certainly was no deist! I thought I had that quote on my computer so I could insert it here, but it's gone. Paraphrased it went something like...' Oh Lord forgive me for the weak and imperfect performance of my duties of this week. I have prayed and read thy word, but with such deadness of spirit that my prayers stand in need of repentance . Forgive me and cover my sins under the blood of thy dear Son..." etc. ,etc.
> Some founders may have been deist (Franklin?), but not George ,by george! From this book's perspective America was founded as a Christian nation. additionally I remember a quote from American history where patriots were sloganing "No King , but Jesus!". While the intent was not to set up a theorcy, the spirit was there



The Founding Fathers were split about 50/50 on this issue. The Revolution was a strange marriage of christian and enlightenment thought.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 21, 2009)

I recently read the biography of Andrew Pickens, a general who fought in the southern colonies during the war for independence. He was a presbyterian and a godly man who believed that he was to submit to the authority of the crown until the crown crossed over the line and started to destroy his property and family, at which point he took up arms to defend himself believing that God never gave the government a right to go back on agreements and covenants they made with the people. 

In the case of the colonies, they had been denied the same rights that English citizens were enjoying, even though they were paying taxes and keeping their end of the agreement. In addition, they were not being represented in parliament while they were still required to follow the laws. 

Was the United States a Christian nation? No, if you are talking about the men all being Christians and declaring Christ to be king. However, in the sense that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, as well as many of the laws of the land were based on Old Testament law and the ten commandments, some might call it a christian nation. The framers of the Constitution and the laws, whether they were christian or not, knew the Scriptures and understood the wisdom of ruling a country with Biblically-based laws. 

Even our form of government was based on the presbyterian idea (which originated in Scripture) of representative government and checks and balances. The main idea was that men are sinful and given the opportunity, will grab for power at any time. The system was set up to hold back the natural sinfulness of human beings. 

While the United States was not "christian" there was a strong biblical influence on the founders, the framers of our laws and even in the lives of a large part of the population. That has largely been erased and ignored in favor of humanism.


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## Anton Bruckner (Apr 21, 2009)

It was a Christian nation as established by the Puritans re. William Bradford and John Winthrop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(1590-1657)

John Winthrop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, there was a time on this continent if you were caught blaspheming or committing adulteryyou were hanged. It is this rich culture of calvinism that made the USA into a great nation. The apostasy began with the enlightenment movement and went into warp speed with Darwinism. (Even in the enlightment literature of the period you can see heavy influence of Calvinism) But make no mistake about it, this nation was indeed a Christian nation with godly persons whose shoes were are unworthy to untie. 

What we are seeing today is the culmination of our apostasy with judgment.

The definitive answer is, THE USA was a Christian Nation.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 21, 2009)

The majority of the original colonies were founded as Christian societies. The Mayflower Compact states the purpose of their pilgrimage and founding of a political association as the “glory of God and advancement of the Christian religion.” One finds a similar statement in the charter of Virginia. 

A nation is Christian if it has an explicit covenant with God in Jesus Christ. The US Declaration of Independence and the Constitution failed to acknowledge such a covenant relationship. The attempts of the “Christian America” camp to fabricate a myth of the founders and framers as evangelical believers is bogus history. Some of them were true believers. Others used religious language, but were Deist or Unitarians at best. For example, though he was a moral man, John Adams was a Unitarian.

Interestingly, the Treaty of Paris of 1783, officially ending the hostility between the US and Great Britain, shows the British claim to be a Christian kingdom, by their characterization of their monarch. 

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc.​
Queen Elizabeth II took an explicit oath to uphold the established Christian religion of England and to protect Presbyterianism in Scotland. Technically, the UK has a Christian constitution.

Civil magistrates are obligated in their official capacity, not just as individuals, to acknowledge their submission to Jesus Christ (Ps. 2:10-12). I invite anyone to show where that obligation is nullified in scripture.

The USA is not a Christian nation, but should be. We are under God’s judgment for not acknowledging the Son.


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## CDM (Apr 21, 2009)

Anton Bruckner said:


> It was a Christian nation as established by the Puritans re. William Bradford and John Winthrop.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(1590-1657)
> 
> John Winthrop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...



The United States didn't exist during Winthrop's time. If you wish to define the United States of America (per the OP) as simply the soil under our feet, then, I guess you could have a point.


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## Montanablue (Apr 21, 2009)

Anton Bruckner said:


> It was a Christian nation as established by the Puritans re. William Bradford and John Winthrop.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(1590-1657)
> 
> John Winthrop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...



I told myself that I was not going to get involved in this... Nice try, Kathleen..

What about John Smith and the Jamestown Settlement? (predated the Puritans by 2 decades) Would you consider Smith a Christian founder? (I'll answer my own rhetorical question here and say that I defy anyone who has actually read Smith's account of his "adventures" and the settlement to argue that he was a Christian). Many of the New World settlers were apostates of the very worst kind (the Puritans and Pilgrims being the obvious exceptions) so I'm not sure that appealing to the "faith" of the early Anglo inhabitants is a good way to make an argument that we are or were a "Christian" nation. 

As others have pointed out, even if we fast forward to the time of the Declaration of Independence, church attendance and adherence to Christian doctrine wasn't exactly high. True enough, some of the founders were Christians (George Washington is a good example), but the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence (Jefferson) cut out the parts of the Bible that he didn't like and the man who largely wrote the Constitution (Franklin) was an open deist and unapologetic adulterer. Don't even get me started on Alexander Hamilton...

I don't mean to argue that we are a nation without Christian influence. Obviously, we have been very influenced by Christianity and that influence has only helped us. But our origins were more from the enlightenment and less from Christianity than we might think.


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## CDM (Apr 21, 2009)

I asked earlier for a definition. Let's at least agree that the "United States of America" properly speaking began with the ratification of the U.S. Constitution c. 1787. 

Otherwise all of these replies, including mine, are worthless.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 21, 2009)

CDM said:


> I asked earlier for a definition. Let's at least agree that the "United States of America" properly speaking began with the ratification of the U.S. Constitution c. 1787.
> 
> Otherwise all of these replies, including mine, are worthless.



More accurately, the US began with the Articles of Confederation and the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It’s independence was recognized by Great Britain in the Treaty of Paris of 1783. It was identified as the United States of America in the Articles, Declaration and Treaty, and already consisted of those thirteen states which would later ratify the Constitution.


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## Whitefield (Apr 21, 2009)

Skyler said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a "Christian" nation.
> 
> People are Christians. Nations aren't. That was one of the changes of the New Covenant.


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## Craig (Apr 21, 2009)

As usual, I'm going to speak ignorantly...

I remember speaking with a well-read friend of mine who had been reading something by Gary North....and the framing of the U.S. Constitution was, apparently, a coup d'etat. The framers were primarily Masons and they purposefully had closed door meetings and planned it in such a way that Patrick Henry would not be present...they also edited out certain things that were contained in the Articles of Confederation.

Here's a decent article...anyone else have sources that discuss this in detail?


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## Hawaiian Puritan (Apr 21, 2009)

The U.S. Supreme Court's statement on the matter, now discarded in the dustbin of history (_Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States_, 143 U.S. 457 (1892), at 465-471):



> But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus, prior to his sail westward, is from "Ferdinand and Isabella, by the grace of God, King and Queen of Castile," etc., and recites that "it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered," etc. The first colonial grant, that made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584, was from "Elizabeth, by the grace of God, of England, Fraunce and Ireland, Queene, defender of the faith," etc., and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes of the government of the proposed colony provided that "they be not against the true Christian faith nowe professed in the Church of England." The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606, after reciting the application of certain parties for a charter, commenced the grant in these words:
> 
> "We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet government; DO, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well intended Desires."
> 
> ...


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## forgivenmuch (Apr 21, 2009)

America is a Christian nation inasmuch as it resembles Christ, so therefore, no it is not a Christian nation.


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## brianeschen (Apr 21, 2009)

We weren't perfect in the application of Christian principles in the formation of our nation (for one thing, as was pointed out earlier, we did not acknowledge the kingship of Jesus Christ in our founding documents), but I would say that most definitely we were a Christian nation in that our laws were based on the understanding of God's sovereignty, man's depravity and the principle that God gives rights that man cannot rightly take away. Even our form of government is fashioned after presbyterianism. Law was held to be king over every human authority (that is until 1861ish when pragmatism reared its ugly head).

As a nation, a dependence on God was acknowledged from the first and continues in form even to this day (specifically in congressional prayer, Supreme Court prayer, oath on the Bible in the name of God, etc). Unfortunately, we were already giving in to the lie that nations should be religiously pluralistic. For instance, while the states had the good sense to include in their constitutions a religious requirement for office, the Federal Constitution had none. 

For those that claim that the United States did not view itself in covenant with God, I would ask "Why were prayers offered and national days of prayer and fasting called for? Why national days of thanksgiving?" Christians were indeed in the minority, yet they wielded a tremendously disproportionate influence on the forming of this country. Instead of getting better, we ultimately rejected God to rule over us and asked for another . . . man. We are now reaping God's just judgment on us for this wicked act.

It is not surprising though considering what is coming from the pulpits across this land. While it is held that Christ is to rule over the individual, family and church, it is steadfastly maintained that He is indifferent in the affairs of government . . . Christ has nothing to say about politics. He can command the other areas, but not the kings of the earth. Now we have a gospel that commands every area of life except where it touches nations. We have lost what we once had. We grew worse instead of better and we have no one to blame but ourselves. May God grant us repentance.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 21, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> As a nation, a dependence on God was acknowledged from the first and continues in form even to this day (specifically in congressional prayer, Supreme Court prayer, oath on the Bible in the name of God, etc)....
> 
> For those that claim that the United States did not view itself in covenant with God, I would ask "Why were prayers offered and national days of prayer and fasting called for? Why national days of thanksgiving?" Christians were indeed in the minority, yet they wielded a tremendously disproportionate influence on the forming of this country. ...



Religious references do not a Christian nation make. Religion has and will continue to be used to manipulate people. This is civil religion, a form of idolatry, not Christ’s religion. Consider the Obama pluralistic inaugural prayer service a few months ago.

A Christian nation is obligated to acknowledge the mediatorial rule of Christ over the all nations.

Mediatorial King

-----Added 4/21/2009 at 04:30:22 EST-----



Whitefield said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think there is such a thing as a "Christian" nation.
> ...




Would be interesting to see the biblical proof for this.

*And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.* [Rev. 19:15]​


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## DonP (Apr 21, 2009)

Many of the early American leaders were Masons. If so they could use christian or Biblical jargon and support a faith. It was interesting to note the language was not distinctively Christian and preventing others, but generic religious freedom. Weaker than where they had come from.

Black's law dictionary did define church as a church of Jesus Christ. 

But this has not been upheld in courts dealing with religious freedom 

It was distinctively and intentionally not framed as a Christian theonomy.

Those who knew how to do it would have made sure it was if they were allowed and that was the intent. 

It was a moderate view for religious freedom and more concerned with freedom from govt interference and tyranny in all areas of life. 

That is why we know what the meant by bear arms and a non-govt militia. 
It was to protect against the govt. army as they had just done.


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## brianeschen (Apr 21, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> brianeschen said:
> 
> 
> > As a nation, a dependence on God was acknowledged from the first and continues in form even to this day (specifically in congressional prayer, Supreme Court prayer, oath on the Bible in the name of God, etc)....
> ...


I agree. I would argue though that we did acknowledge Christ, albeit imperfectly and unfortunately not explicitly enough in the writing of our founding documents. What we have now is merely the shell of what was started and is as you say very pluralistic.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 21, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> ...I would argue though that we did acknowledge Christ, albeit imperfectly and unfortunately not explicitly enough in the writing of our founding documents. What we have now is merely the shell of what was started and is as you say very pluralistic.



The closest thing we have to an acknowledgment of Christ in our federal founding documents is the words “in the year of our Lord.”

The British government from which we severed our connections was and remained more explicitly Christian, though Erastian and in rebellion because they did not adhere to their promises of the Solemn League and Covenant of 1643, than what we became. 

The federal union did not reaffirm the Christian covenants of many of the original colonies.

I will concede neither the founders nor the American Presbyterian amenders of the WCF XXIII:iii might have envisioned the polyglot pluralism of their future. After all, some of the states had established churches, explicit Christian oaths and constitutions, and there existed an evangelical, mostly Reformed, Protestant consensus in the new nation. But, their intention was clearly a secular civil order.

However, without explicit constitutional and covenantal acknowledgment of Christ, we entered into a lesser (what Gary North called an apostate) “covenant” with a generic and non-descript higher power, but not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now we reap the fruit of our connection.

Without an explicit covenant, we cannot claim to be a Christian nation, except in some general, historical, traditional, or cultural sense, nor hope to forgo the warning and judgment of Psalm 2:12a, “Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.”


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## Rich Koster (Apr 21, 2009)

Skyler said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a "Christian" nation.
> 
> People are Christians. Nations aren't. That was one of the changes of the New Covenant.



That's right. I'm waiting for Jesus to return and set it up.


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## Jen (Apr 21, 2009)

coramdeo said:


> I think the idea that the founders were all deist is misplaced. Have you read Peter Marshall's "The Light and the Glory"? There is an excerpt in it from George Washington's prayer diary. He certainly was no deist! I thought I had that quote on my computer so I could insert it here, but it's gone. Paraphrased it went something like...' Oh Lord forgive me for the weak and imperfect performance of my duties of this week. I have prayed and read thy word, but with such deadness of spirit that my prayers stand in need of repentance . Forgive me and cover my sins under the blood of thy dear Son..." etc. ,etc.
> Some founders may have been deist (Franklin?), but not George ,by george! From this book's perspective America was founded as a Christian nation. additionally I remember a quote from American history where patriots were sloganing "No King , but Jesus!". While the intent was not to set up a theorcy, the spirit was there



George Washington's own pastor never recognised the fruit in Washington that would mark him a Christian. He refused to partake of Communion, and, when called out on it, stopped attending church on the Sundays that they would take Communion. In 1787 he wrote to LaFayette that he indulges the professors of Christianity. And he was definitely a Freemason (a proud one at that -- his favourite portrait of himself was the one in which he wore his Masonic regalia), and Masonry espouses doctrines totally at odds with Christianity.

While I am sure that there are Christians amongst the Founders, the evidence does not suggest that Washington was one. 

One of the more interesting chapels we had at Master's was done by one of the history professors about the religious beliefs of some of the Founding Fathers (a subject on which he wrote his Ph.D. dissertation). He argued that while they weren't necessarily strict deists, they were far from Christian, and they tended to use generic God-words rather than actually recognising the true God. He dubbed them theistic rationalists. They also believed that religion in general was a good idea because it gave people a moral foundation that without society would fall apart. This is the list he gave us:



> John Adams
> 
> In his diary in February 1786, he stated that the deity of Christ and the atonement are absurdities.
> In 1813, in a letter to Jefferson, he denied the Trinity.
> ...


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## Casey (Apr 21, 2009)

CalvinandHodges said:


> My own denomination teaches that the United States was never a Christian Nation.


Your denomination teaches this?


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 21, 2009)

CaseyBessette said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> > My own denomination teaches that the United States was never a Christian Nation.
> ...



Look at the RPCNA Testimony, a parallel official commentary on the Westminster Standards, part of their constitution, especially that part parallel to WCF XXIII, on the civil magistrate.

http://reformedpresbyterian.org/assets/pdf/Constitution04.pdf

The RPCNA were Covenanters, successors to those who refused to be included in the restored Church of Scotland based upon something less than the reaffirmation of the National Covenant of 1638 and Solemn League and Covenant of 1643, which they saw as binding upon church and state. Many saw the War for Independence as just, against a covenant breaking king, but were disappointed with the new civil order.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hawaiian Puritan (Apr 21, 2009)

Hawaii was a Christian nation before it became part of the United States. From the first part of the first Constitution proclaimed by King Kamehameha III in 1840:



> Kingdom of Hawai`i Constitution of 1840
> 
> DECLARATION OF RIGHTS, BOTH OF THE PEOPLE AND CHIEFS.
> 
> ...


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## ww (Apr 21, 2009)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Is the United States of America a Christian Nation from its conception? Is it "departing from its Christian roots?" or, Has it never been a Christian nation, and is simply following the Deist/Enlightenment thinking of the Founding Fathers?
> 
> ...



I would agree Rob that America was not and is not a Christian Nation. It was influenced in its founding by Christian and Scriptural principles however it is a pluralistic Nation and Society never intended to establish any one religion.


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## Herald (Apr 21, 2009)

The consensus seems to be that the United States of America was not founded as, nor is this day, a Christian nation. I readily concur with that assessment. Thankfully, God has used this nation for righteousness sake in spite of its many sins. I thank God that He has raised up many faithful servants of the gospel from this nations founding until now. It is easy to point out the vile wickedness in our culture; and it does deserve to be exposed. But how often do we thank God for how He has used this nation?


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