# Presbyterian worship



## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

I have worshiped in several (~10) Presbyterian Churches, and I have noticed one thing that many of these, especially the traditional ones, have in common. They don't sing very many hymns, and the worship doesn't seem to flow very well. We went to a service a couple of weeks ago, and sang only 3 hymns. This is quite a departure from my home CHurch, where we sing as part of our liturgy and sing an additional 8-10 hymns. Why are many Presbyterians so weak on the amount of music?


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## Peter (Jan 18, 2005)

We sing three hymns (inspired) at our church. I find it amazing you sing 8-10. I'm not sure if its a good thing, a bad thing, or an indifferent thing.


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## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> We sing three hymns (inspired) at our church. I find it amazing you sing 8-10. I'm not sure if its a good thing, a bad thing, or an indifferent thing.



Maybe it is just what I am used to, but 3 hymns is barely scratching the surface of worship for me. Ours are very integrated with our liturgy.

Example:

Hymn of Inovocation
Prayer of Adoration
The Decalogue (reading of the law)
Corporate confession of sin (last week it was a german hymn)
liturgy of Corporate confession of sin
Declaration of absolution
Doxology
Hymn of grattitude and Praise
The Psalter (Set to music)
OT Lesson
Epistle Lesson
Confession of Faith (this week we sung an arangement of the apostles Creed)
Prayer of supplication and thanksgiving
Gospel Lesson
Prayer of Illumination
Sermon
Tithes and Offerings/song of grattitude toward God.
Passing of the Peace
Followed by the hymn "Holy is God the Lord of Sabaoth".
Communion Hymn as the bread is served
Communion Hymn as the wine is served
Benediction
Departing Hymn

So we sang 11 hymns last week.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 18, 2005)

The reformed/Presbyterian churches I've been in sing at least 4-6 hymns/psalms. Usually the songs are thematic for the portion of worship they are suppose to prepare you for, (i.e. confession, prayer, the sermon, sacraments, application of the sermon, etc.)

[Edited on 18-1-2005 by puritansailor]


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## JWJ (Jan 18, 2005)

The OPC church I attend sings about 3-4. This In my humble opinion is perfect. 

Jim


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## Peter (Jan 18, 2005)

Call to Worship (Psa 24:1)
Psalm (24C)
Prayer of Praise and confession
The ten commandments: Ex 20:1-7
Psalm (119G)
Responsive Reading: (Ex 25:10-16; Num 7:1-9)
Tithes & offerings
Scripture: (2 Sam 6)
Sermon: (Worship God in spirit and truth)
Psalm (132A)
Pastoral Prayer
The Lord's Prayer
Benediction
Psalm 138B stanza 6


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> Maybe it is just what I am used to, but 3 hymns is barely scratching the surface of worship for me. Ours are very integrated with our liturgy.
> Example:
> Hymn of Inovocation
> ...


How long does your service typically last? I don't think I've ever attended a Presbyterian church (though maybe in college), but the service at the reformed congregational church I now attend typically lasts a little over an hour, and the order of the morning worship follows something along this format:

Welcome & Announcements
Moment of Meditation
Call to Worship
Prayer of Invocation
Psalm reading
Scripture Reading
Hymn
Tithes and Offerings
Congregational Prayer
Hymn
Text and Sermon
Prayer of Application
Hymn 
Benediction
Postlude

Hymns may be either out of the Trinity Hymnal or the Psalter


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## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by raderag_
> ...



It flows really well, so not as long as you might think. A sermon is typically 35-45 minutes. A service usually last about 1.25-1.5 hours.


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## Scott (Jan 18, 2005)

Brett: I think Redeemer has a very well-thought out liturgy. One challenge for Presbyterian churches is that we have no common book of liturgy and each church basically creates their own. D.G. Hart has written of the challenges of this in his Recovering Mother Kirk. Most pastors and Sessions are not liturgists by training. As I recall, you had Leonard Peyton (may be misspelling his name), who lives and breathes this stuff.


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## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Brett: I think Redeemer has a very well-thought out liturgy. One challenge for Presbyterian churches is that we have no common book of liturgy and each church basically creates their own. D.G. Hart has written of the challenges of this in his Recovering Mother Kirk. Most pastors and Sessions are not liturgists by training. As I recall, you had Leonard Peyton (may be misspelling his name), who lives and breathes this stuff.



That's correct. George Dupeere is now our music leader. The biggest differnce that I see is the amount of music, and the seeming lack of flow. I don't see this in the baptist Churches that I visit, why the Presbyterian ones? I notice that there is often a 30 second or more delay between they hymn and the next part of the service. I am wondering if there is some history behind this or something.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2005)

It'd be nice to be able to attend different churches to experience how others worship. About the only time this is really practical is when you go on vacation somewhere and go to a different church.

I was wondering if anybody has ever found online recordings of entire services? I've never seen them and I realize most people are mostly interested in the sermons, but it'd be nice to be able to hear an entire service that way.


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## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> It'd be nice to be able to attend different churches to experience how others worship. About the only time this is really practical is when you go on vacation somewhere and go to a different church.
> 
> I was wondering if anybody has ever found online recordings of entire services? I've never seen them and I realize most people are mostly interested in the sermons, but it'd be nice to be able to hear an entire service that way.



No, I haven't seen many that do that. I agree that would be very interesting. I always enjoy visiting different Churches, espeically Presbyterian. I am alwasy amazed at the diversity in the PCA.


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## tcalbrecht (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Most pastors and Sessions are not liturgists by training.



They have a school for this kind of stuff? I thought that's why we have "worship teams". :bigsmile:


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## fredtgreco (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott_
> ...



They do, Tom. It's run by Lutherans.


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## doulosChristou (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> It'd be nice to be able to attend different churches to experience how others worship. About the only time this is really practical is when you go on vacation somewhere and go to a different church.
> 
> I was wondering if anybody has ever found online recordings of entire services? I've never seen them and I realize most people are mostly interested in the sermons, but it'd be nice to be able to hear an entire service that way.



We've recently decided to do just that. DVDs of our entire Lord's Day morning worship service -- prayers, hymns, supper, sermon and all -- will be offered, and we will also make the video available for streaming online. We haven't decided between Windows Media or Real Audio format yet. We're also working on the equipment. Look for it soon here:

http://www.dsf.org


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## Robin (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> I have worshiped in several (~10) Presbyterian Churches, and I have noticed one thing that many of these, especially the traditional ones, have in common. They don't sing very many hymns, and the worship doesn't seem to flow very well. We went to a service a couple of weeks ago, and sang only 3 hymns. This is quite a departure from my home CHurch, where we sing as part of our liturgy and sing an additional 8-10 hymns. Why are many Presbyterians so weak on the amount of music?



Dear Bret:

Where does it teach that singing is either a primary method or priority of worship?

With all due respect, why is there so much emphasis put on singing as an evidence that the Lord has truly been worshipped?



Robin


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## raderag (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by raderag_
> ...



Robin,

I am not an expert on this issue, but it is my understanding that singing is a vital part of old testament worship. It was used prominently in devotion, teaching, praise, etc. Just read through exodus, the Psalms, etc, and you will get an idea how prevelant music is in worship.


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## wsw201 (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by blhowes_
> ...



One of the primary reasons there is such diversity within the PCA is that the Directory of Worship (with the exception of 3 chapters) is not constitutional, whereas in the OPC it is. Therefore in the PCA you can find a wide range of worship style from more traditional to contemporary. It's totally up to the Session.

[Edited on 1/18/2005 by wsw201]


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## Ianterrell (Jan 18, 2005)

Why do we define singing as worship as opposed to prayer, tithing, and the time spent in the scripture lessons?


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## raderag (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ianterrell_
> Why do we define singing as worship as opposed to prayer, tithing, and the time spent in the scripture lessons?



Where did I say as opposed to prayer, etc, and where did I say that those that had few hymns were not worshipping? My point is merely that the music in many Churches seems to be a very small part of worship. If only 3 hymns are sung, that is likely to be less than 10 minutes of the worship time. In fact, much of scripture shows a pattern of using mucic in devotion, teaching, and even prayer.


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## blhowes (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> We've recently decided to do just that. DVDs of our entire Lord's Day morning worship service -- prayers, hymns, supper, sermon and all -- will be offered, and we will also make the video available for streaming online. We haven't decided between Windows Media or Real Audio format yet. We're also working on the equipment. Look for it soon here:
> http://www.dsf.org


I'd be interested in hearing/watching the service if its in streaming format. Is your order of worship similar to any that've been listed in this thread?


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## Peter (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Ianterrell_
> ...



Brett, the word should be central to our worship not singing/music. Reading and expounding Scripture should consume the greater part of the worship service. 
p.s. in my scripture-centric view of worship, our songs should also be God's word.


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## raderag (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by raderag_
> ...



Did you look at our liturgy that I posted? Most of it was exactly that. Besides, the actual sermon is over one half of the service.

OK, but I understand your argument here to be that of the "Centrality of preaching" vs the "Centrality of the Gospel".
Is there a historical reason that the former is a Presbyterian distinctive?


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2005)

Singing is a form of teaching and a form of exposition of the Word. "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, *teaching and admonishing* one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Col. 3:16.


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## doulosChristou (Mar 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by blhowes_
> ...



We went with RealAudio. It's up and running:

http://www.dayspringsermons.org/dsvideo.htm


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## kceaster (Mar 22, 2005)

As a musician, I have come to the position that the simpler, the better. The most important aspects of worship are Word and sacrament. As long as these stay central, then why can't the music just be simple? We use to have a lot of songs in our services, but we found that it broke up the flow, instead of benefitting it. Now, we usually sing three Hymns and two Psalter selections. We also sing the Doxology before the prayer of Thanksgiving and the three-fold Amen at the benediction. But even in all of this, it could be simpler. From what I understand, the early church's liturgy was very simple.

I know music is a teaching tool and it belongs in worship. But there has to be balance, just as Paul wrote.

In Christ,

KC


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Peter_
> ...




My goodness. Is it a wonder that kids may grow up disliking church with a list like this. PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

I visited a church once on vacation. They had a "label" for every part of the service and a song to go with it. Kids were screaminf after and hour. Parents were spanking them in the narthax. The titles they used were all latin on taken from 500 years ago. I had no clue what they were doing. My kids started acting up afte 1.5 hours. People were looking at us wondering why were were not adressing them wqith any discipline. I said, the only way a child could sit through this is it they were nailed to the pew. 2 hours long, 16 songs, 30 minute sermon. it was brutal.


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## wsw201 (Mar 22, 2005)

Joesph,

If you think that's bad, there was a woman I use to work with who was from India, third generation Presbyterian. When her and her husband moved to the US they were very disappointed in the worship services they attended. Their main complaint was that they were too short. She said that the service was only an hour and the sermon was only 20 minutes and the church they were attending had three pastors and only one preached. She said that in Presbyterian Churches in India, the sermon will last for at least an hour and if a church has more than one pastor, each pastor will preach a sermon. Her family normally spent all day in Church!


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> Joesph,
> 
> If you think that's bad, there was a woman I use to work with who was from India, third generation Presbyterian. When her and her husband moved to the US they were very disappointed in the worship services they attended. Their main complaint was that they were too short. She said that the service was only an hour and the sermon was only 20 minutes and the church they were attending had three pastors and only one preached. She said that in Presbyterian Churches in India, the sermon will last for at least an hour and if a church has more than one pastor, each pastor will preach a sermon. Her family normally spent all day in Church!




Wow. I believe the root of this is because the rest of the week is not spent worshipping our Lord. So the Church feels the need to do more on Sunday. Not only would my kids squirm, but so would I. 

I am not inclined to be a spectator that long. I can maybe last 90 minutes on a good day. But again, that is where Christiandumb is nowadays. Showtime religion and we are spectators.


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## turmeric (Mar 22, 2005)

The Puritans made church an all-day affair as well - and they had that guy go around with the stick to whack overly-rambunctious kids. But that was when kids knew Latin and were off to seminary at the tender age of 12!


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## wsw201 (Mar 22, 2005)

> Wow. I believe the root of this is because the rest of the week is not spent worshipping our Lord. So the Church feels the need to do more on Sunday. Not only would my kids squirm, but so would I.
> 
> I am not inclined to be a spectator that long. I can maybe last 90 minutes on a good day. But again, that is where Christiandumb is nowadays. Showtime religion and we are spectators.



Actually the root is that Sunday is the Lord's Day and that it should be spent with other Christians; ie; The Church.

Unfortunately your comment about Showtime religion is all too true. But the root of Showtime religion is lazy Christians.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> The Puritans made church an all-day affair as well - and they had that guy go around with the stick to whack overly-rambunctious kids. But that was when kids knew Latin and were off to seminary at the tender age of 12!


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> The Puritans made church an all-day affair as well - and they had that guy go around with the stick to whack overly-rambunctious kids. But that was when kids knew Latin and were off to seminary at the tender age of 12!




Thank God that practice has been buried.


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> 
> 
> > Wow. I believe the root of this is because the rest of the week is not spent worshipping our Lord. So the Church feels the need to do more on Sunday. Not only would my kids squirm, but so would I.
> ...




Wayne: It is the Lords Day. But we are still called to be doing the Lords Work every day of the week. My issue is when so much stress and "Piety" is put upon Sunday and outward forms of worship, this creates lazy Christians. If one spends 8 hours on a Sunday in Church, they feel that is their quota, and rightly so. Monday through Saturday in the world, Sunday all day in Church, as if this puritanical or whatever false piety does anything to edify believers. 

It is almost legalistic to a point. I know a person who believes I am not faithfull because I do not attend the morning service, then cathechism, then the evening service and wednesday night service. 

Christ said the harvest is plenty but the laborers are few. While they are cooped up into a legalistic fase piety type weekly scedule, I enjoy being out in the world sharing Christ. And I even lack at that. 

Sometimes our Church bulletin is so packed with programs under the guise of worship, I do not believe there is room for Christ to come in. It is a legalistic YMCA!!!!!!!!!!!


Getting so attached to "historical' or "traditional" words and the length quenches the Spirit In my humble opinion. (H=humble).

Sometimes i feel like Mary at the tomb. "They have taken away my Lord and I dont know where He is"

Give me guilt grace and gratitude. Tell me how rotten I am, point me to the cross. Sing a few songs. And let me go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In His Grace


Joseph

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by The Lamb]


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## raderag (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> My goodness. Is it a wonder that kids may grow up disliking church with a list like this. PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
> 
> I visited a church once on vacation. They had a "label" for every part of the service and a song to go with it. Kids were screaminf after and hour. Parents were spanking them in the narthax. The titles they used were all latin on taken from 500 years ago. I had no clue what they were doing. My kids started acting up afte 1.5 hours. People were looking at us wondering why were were not adressing them wqith any discipline. I said, the only way a child could sit through this is it they were nailed to the pew. 2 hours long, 16 songs, 30 minute sermon. it was brutal.



Our service is about 1.5 hours long, and my 8 year old does well participating in the service. Actually, it is much easier for her to do the liturgy and music than understand the sermon. The good thing about having good music and liturgy is that the body is edified even when a sermon is bad.


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## Scott (Mar 22, 2005)

"My goodness. Is it a wonder that kids may grow up disliking church with a list like this. PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW"

I don't think the extensive liturgy drives children away. Evangelicals tend to be anti-liturgical and have services that are pretty simple, along the lines you suggest, and yet studies show that 80 percent of evangelical kids leave the church at age 18 and never return. Yikes!


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "My goodness. Is it a wonder that kids may grow up disliking church with a list like this. PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW"
> 
> I don't think the extensive liturgy drives children away. Evangelicals tend to be anti-liturgical and have services that are pretty simple, along the lines you suggest, and yet studies show that 80 percent of evangelical kids leave the church at age 18 and never return. Yikes!




That is my point, there is no "formula" But we need to get rid of the ancient language Scott. Everytime someone forgets to put in "Votum" as the call to worship, he goes nuts. I know one typist does it on purpose.

I was specifically addressing the length of the liturgy the person posted here. Every section of the service has a name, prayer, song, handshake, bowing. It is way too starched for my flavor and kids do suffer. I do nto discipline my kids in church. They are well behaved, and if they act up, I take them outside for a walk. 


There is a reason that kids do not enjoy going to church. It is tooo starched for them. '



In His Grace


Joseph


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## wsw201 (Mar 22, 2005)

> Wayne: It is the Lords Day. But we are still called to be doing the Lords Work every day of the week. My issue is when so much stress and "Piety" is put upon Sunday and outward forms of worship, this creates lazy Christians. If one spends 8 hours on a Sunday in Church, they feel that is their quota, and rightly so. Monday through Saturday in the world, Sunday all day in Church, as if this puritanical or whatever false piety does anything to edify believers.
> 
> It is almost legalistic to a point. I know a person who believes I am not faithfull because I do not attend the morning service, then cathechism, then the evening service and wednesday night service.
> 
> ...



If going to Worship God (for however long) on the Lord's Day creates a sense of false piety and lazy Christians that only act like Christians on Sunday, then the Church is not doing what they are suppose to be doing and that is equipping the saints to glorify God in whatever they do, not just on Sunday.

I think the issues surrounding the Lord's Day are about what Scripture says its suppose to be not what it has become (showtime religion). If your Church is creating lazy Christians then your Church needs to follow Scripture and get with the program.


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> 
> 
> > Wayne: It is the Lords Day. But we are still called to be doing the Lords Work every day of the week. My issue is when so much stress and "Piety" is put upon Sunday and outward forms of worship, this creates lazy Christians. If one spends 8 hours on a Sunday in Church, they feel that is their quota, and rightly so. Monday through Saturday in the world, Sunday all day in Church, as if this puritanical or whatever false piety does anything to edify believers.
> ...



Exactly my point Wayne!!!!!!!! I believe it is present everywhere in Christiandumb these days. They try to repackage the good ole Gospel. Or present it in a way that is so archaic and liturgical, If we had kneeling pads I would think I may be in an rcc. 

Like I said, prepare the congregation to go out and be filled with the Spirit.


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## cupotea (Mar 22, 2005)

I once went to a Presbyterian church like that, which was just about all music. I admit, that's not really my thing. I didn't yet know any Latin, so I had no clue what was going on, and I didn't really care. My impression was, it wasn't about God at all, it was about putting on a good show. It was about the choir being dressed in white, and walking down the aisle in unison, about everything being ritualistic. It made me want to puke. Mind you, the church I went to was *not* raderag's church--I am not commenting on that church, I'm commenting on the one I went to! I absolutely love the church I'm going to now, though. We sing about 4 hymns, and the choir sings a welcoming hymn, and a preparation for prayer hymn. 

My main problem with hymns is that they put too much focus on singing the notes properly. When I sing them, I don't pay any attention to the words--I want to, but I'm distracted by trying to sing on key and hold the notes for the right length and all that. The hymns would be much more effective--for me--if the minister would just read out the lyrics. Obviously, there does need to be music, I realize that. I'm just saying this is why I don't agree with over-doing it--again, this is my personal experience, and not an attack on raderag's church!

My problem with the choir singing is with all that harmony junk they put in it, a) the focus is on how pretty it sounds, so it's more like a concert than worship of God b) you can't understand what the heck they're saying. One great thing about my church is they print the words in the bulletin, so as the choir sings, I can ignore them and read the words, so I get the message. Brilliant!

In response to turmeric's comment, don't forget who the youngest person to be accepted into Harvard was! (Cotton Mather, aged 11  ). I wish I could attend a Puritan church service for 6 hours on Sundays and then another few hours on Thursdays... how sweet that would be!


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## Scott (Mar 24, 2005)

"Every section of the service has a name, prayer, song, handshake, bowing. It is way too starched for my flavor and kids do suffer. I do nto discipline my kids in church. They are well behaved, and if they act up, I take them outside for a walk."

It is interesting to me to note that when the Church was most vibrant and growing (the early church), it was also the least user-friendly. The services were liturgical, complicated, long and they did not even have nurseries or pews. When Christianity is in its anemic forms, it can be short, simple, and user-friendly. Not an argument, just an observation.


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## Scott (Mar 24, 2005)

"My main problem with hymns is that they put too much focus on singing the notes properly. When I sing them, I don't pay any attention to the words--I want to, but I'm distracted by trying to sing on key and hold the notes for the right length and all that."

It is interesting to me that the Bible emphasizes the quality of music (beyond lyrics), especially in 1 and 2 Chronicles. In those books we see that Levitical musicians were chosen for their musical talent, they were trained, rotated responsibilites, etc. The focus is on more than the lyrics. Excellence in the entire musical program seems to be a goal.


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## Caka (Mar 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> ...






WOW it's been awhile ( 3 or 4 years? ) since I've visited Dayspring. I forgot Jackson playes the guitar from the pulpit You just don't see that very often:bigsmile: I really enjoyed his preaching the 5 or so times I visited there. The video really turned out well by the way.


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## doulosChristou (Mar 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Caka_WOW it's been awhile ( 3 or 4 years? ) since I've visited Dayspring. I forgot Jackson playes the guitar from the pulpit.  You just don't see that very often :bigsmile: I really enjoyed his preaching the 5 or so times I visited there. The video really turned out well by the way.



Thanks! I met Dr. Story for the first time back in January at a conference we held at Dayspring. He and I talked about Edwards. Your pastor is a very warm and gracious man. I'd like to hear him preach some day.


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## raderag (Mar 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Caka_WOW it's been awhile ( 3 or 4 years? ) since I've visited Dayspring. I forgot Jackson playes the guitar from the pulpit.  You just don't see that very often :bigsmile: I really enjoyed his preaching the 5 or so times I visited there. The video really turned out well by the way.
> ...



Hey Guys,

I'm in Austin too. Dr Story is very nice. His son goes to redeemer. Providence is just down the street from me. (about 1/2 mile)


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## doulosChristou (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi Brett!

Is Dr. Leonard Payton still at Redeemer? Talk about Presbyterian worship! His chapter on music and worship in _The Coming Evangelical Crisis_ is golden. Amazing -- all of us Reformed folks here in Austin, TX. :bigsmile:


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## Robin (Mar 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "My goodness. Is it a wonder that kids may grow up disliking church with a list like this. PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW"
> 
> I don't think the extensive liturgy drives children away. Evangelicals tend to be anti-liturgical and have services that are pretty simple, along the lines you suggest, and yet studies show that 80 percent of evangelical kids leave the church at age 18 and never return. Yikes!



The reason for this is that Evangelical churches preach the Law and use moralistic lectures to burden believers to try ever a little harder to "bear fruit."

It's tyranny.

R.


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## raderag (Mar 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> Hi Brett!
> 
> Is Dr. Leonard Payton still at Redeemer? Talk about Presbyterian worship! His chapter on music and worship in _The Coming Evangelical Crisis_ is golden. Amazing -- all of us Reformed folks here in Austin, TX. :bigsmile:



No, he left some time ago to go to a Lutheran seminary, but I have heard nothing but good things about him. I never met Dr Payton, but his replacement is great.


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## DTK (Mar 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> It is interesting to me to note that when the Church was most vibrant and growing (the early church), it was also the least user-friendly. The services were liturgical, complicated, long and they did not even have nurseries or pews. When Christianity is in its anemic forms, it can be short, simple, and user-friendly. Not an argument, just an observation.



Scott,

I always find it interesting what folk write about the Early Church. Now while I would argue that every Church follows _de facto_ some form of liturgy (whether they call it that or not), the order and forms do seem to vary. Below I am posting what, as far as I've been able to research, the earliest post-Apostolic description of a worship service as given by Justin Martyr. And it doesn't appear to be complicated at all to me. But maybe I'm missing something here. 



> *Justin Martyr (wrote after 151):* And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. _ANF: Vol. I, First Apology of Justin_, Chapter 67.



His liturgy seems to be as follows...
1) The memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits.
2) Preaching/Teaching: the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. 
3) Prayer: Then we all rise together and pray.
4) The sacrament of the Lord's table.
5) Collection is made for the poor/needy.

Now, I'm sure that liturgical practices differed, but this early one doesn't appear very complicated to me. Interestingly enough, Justin Martyr makes no mention of any hymnology in his description of this service. He does make one mention of "a hymn of praise to the Almighty God" in the 38th Chapter of his _Hortatory Address to the Greeks_, but even there, not in the context of a worship service.

Blessings,
DTK


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## Scott (Mar 28, 2005)

"The reason for this is that Evangelical churches preach the Law and use moralistic lectures to burden believers to try ever a little harder to "bear fruit."

I know plenty of evangelical churches (antinomian and otherwise) that preach only grace and have the same problems. The same applies for the ones that have essentially therapeutic sermons or teachings (how to have better finances, relationships, overcome anger, etc.).


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## Scott (Mar 28, 2005)

David: I agree that Justin's description is not very complicated and I often use that exact quote from Justin when discussing the regulative principle and also to show that traditional Protestant worship services conform to these essential elements. (I had a dialogue with a Catholic on that point recently). Still, if you look at early (first 3-4 centuries) liturgies and other other docs, we can see some fairly elaborate practices and many of these developed over time. Again, that is not an argument for or against and is not saying that the apostles had any specific liturgical practice. 

For what it's worth, I found this issue of Christian History interesting:
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1993/37

One of the articles make the point that the early services (first 3-4 centuries) were not very user-friendly. 

Scott


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## AdamM (Mar 28, 2005)

Interesting that the Puritans rejected most of the elaborate ceremonies in favor a simple worship service. J.I. Packer sums their approach up nicely in the following article:


http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=39||489



> The Glory of Worship
> 
> But these problems concerned the forms and externals of worship only, and our present interest is rather in the inner reality of worship, as the Puritans understood it. Here, wherever else they differed, they were at one, and the written material they have left us is completely homogeneous, as we shall hope to show by a fairly wide range of quotations. What is worship? It is essentially doxology, a giving of glory, praise, honor, and homage to God. In the broadest sense of the word, all true piety is worship. 'Godliness is a worship,' wrote Swinnock:
> Worship comprehends all that respect which man oweth and giveth to his Maker...It is the tribute which we pay to the King of Kings, whereby we acknowledge his sovereignty over us, and our dependence on him...All that inward reverence and respect, and all that outward obedience and service to God, which the word [sc,godliness] enjoineth, is included in this one word worship. [2]
> ...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 28, 2005)

That's a good article, Adam. It's worth remembering what the word Puritan meant. It was used originally in a derogatory way to describe those who wanted to reform and simplify Anglican ceremonial worship by purging it of the rituals that lacked Biblcal warrant and adhering to worship that was centered on God's Word. The Biblical ordinances of worship -- as outlined in the WCF, Chap. XXI, V -- are quite simple and though the preaching and psalm-singing might have lasted a while in a Puritan worship service, such worship was centered on and based upon God's Word, in contrast with the extraneous ceremonies, rituals and observances of those who adhere to the principle: If it's not forbidden, it's lawful. The RPW simplifies worship rather than complicates it.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 29, 2005)

I think the Puritan use of "the stick" would also be a good practice to restore too 
But to clarify, the stick wasn't used on children. It had a pointy end for the men, and a blunt end for the women, and was used by the elder standing in the back of the church to wake up anyone who fell asleep during the preaching. 

[Edited on 3-29-2005 by puritansailor]


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## Scott (Mar 29, 2005)

Patrick: You won't find that suggestion in any church growth materials!


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## Plimoth Thom (Mar 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> I think the Puritan use of "the stick" would also be a good practice to restore too
> But to clarify, the stick wasn't used on children. It had a pointy end for the men, and a blunt end for the women, and was used by the elder standing in the back of the church to wake up anyone who fell asleep during the preaching.
> 
> [Edited on 3-29-2005 by puritansailor]



I'm sure there was a lot of variance in the type of "church-stick" used by the Tithing-man from church to church. I've read (in one of Eric Sloane's books I believe) that the stick often had a rabbits foot on one end for children, and a soft fox tail on the other to tickle the cheek of sleeping adults. It was the Tithing-man's job to keep order, and if someone was making noise, he would put his finger to his lips and tap his stick to warn them. It's believed that the finger across the lips sign for quiet may have originated with the Tithing-man in early American churches.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 29, 2005)

I read about it in Davies' Worship of the American Puritans.


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## Plimoth Thom (Mar 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> I read about it in Davies' Worship of the American Puritans.



I haven't read that one. It looks interesting.


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