# Vineyard Church Movement



## RobertPGH1981

All,

I recently just met an individual who is a member of a "Vinyard Church." It seems to be a newer movement and I wanted to get information on this movement. The problem I am having is that I am having a hard time finding their statement of faith. Does anybody know what the Vinyard churches teach/believe. 

God Bless,


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## Contra_Mundum

Association of Vineyard Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

{always read wikped with discernment, as there is little government over its quasi-authoritative informative status.}

http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/


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## ericfromcowtown

My understanding, is that they are extremely charismatic / pentacostal, with an emphasis on "spiritual warfare" and being "missional."


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## Andres

As Eric said, they are a charismatic sect to the extreme. What I mean is this is the group that was one of the first to get into the holy laughter and animal sounds, etc. They also used to advocate getting drunk in the spirit. They certainly aren't new though. Unless this is some other group with a similar name, the Vineyard group has been around since about the 80's. I believe John Wimber founded them. They really took off in the mid 90's with John Arnott and the Toronto Blessing. Again this is a really wacky group. Here is a clip of typical Toronto Blessing behavior. 



[video=youtube;xCeVZ6e2T0E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E[/video]


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## elnwood

Well, it's a "newer movement" compared to churches with centuries-old confessions!

Historically, they are part of the "third-wave charismatic" movement (the first-wave being Pentecostalism, the second-wave being the charismatic movement in the 70s), and the distinguishing theological mark is that, in contrast to their first and second wave counterparts, they don't think that baptism of the holy spirit is subsequent to conversion, though there are subsequent fillings.

Wayne Grudem was a good friend of John Wimber and a part of Vineyard for awhile. He wrote numerous position papers defending their doctrine. I don't think he's associated with the movement now, and the Vineyard churches started recognizing female pastors about five or so years ago.


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## Andres

elnwood said:


> Well, it's a "newer movement" compared to churches with centuries-old confessions!



Great point!


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## Joseph Scibbe

> Wayne Grudem was a good friend of John Wimber and a part of Vineyard for awhile. He wrote numerous position papers defending their doctrine. I don't think he's associated with the movement now, and the Vineyard churches started recognizing female pastors about five or so years ago.


 From wahat I know he (Grudem) is not associated with them anymore. I might be wrong. I know he is a complementarian so that would go against the Vineyard movement of having women elders.


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## steadfast7

I haven't heard much stir from the Vineyard Movement, or charismatics in general these days. I believe Wayne is still very much a continuationist, and an ardent defender of a form of prophecy which he regards as Biblical and acceptable in our modern day. As one who grew up very influenced by the Pentecostals, and visited Toronto Airport Church, I would generally stay clear of any long term involvement with their movement on doctrinal grounds, however, Sovereign Grace Ministries (CJ Mahaney) who are "Reformed Charismatics" actually have a very good reputation among Reformed evangelicals and I would endorse them for those who inclined in that direction. I think this generation is moving away somewhat from the charismatic movement and wanting solid Biblical teaching. Praise God for that!


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## kodos

steadfast7 said:


> I would generally stay clear of any long term involvement with their movement on doctrinal grounds, however, Sovereign Grace Ministries (CJ Mahaney) who are "Reformed Charismatics" actually have a very good reputation among Reformed evangelicals and I would endorse them for those who inclined in that direction.



I'd probably steer them clear of endorsing SGM either - their "Pope" of sorts (CJ Mahaney) just stepped down, and the sgmsurvivors site has a ton of documents from his inner circle. 

Once you believe God speaks to you outside of His Word, the road to error and gross sin is catastrophic. Regardless of how many letters in the TULIP acrostic you hold to.


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## J. Dean

kodos said:


> Once you believe God speaks to you outside of His Word, the road to error and gross sin is catastrophic. Regardless of how many letters in the TULIP acrostic you hold to.


Quote of the day, and gets a hearty "Amen" from me. 

And it's hard to explain this to charismatics/pentecostals precisely because a good number of them are Bible-believing Christians and would never fathom going along with something blatantly unscriptural. But it happens, and it's subtle. And you're absolutely right; chasing after gifts and signs is the first step down a catastrophic road.


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## R Harris

elnwood said:


> Well, it's a "newer movement" compared to churches with centuries-old confessions!
> 
> Historically, they are part of the "third-wave charismatic" movement (the first-wave being Pentecostalism, the second-wave being the charismatic movement in the 70s), and the distinguishing theological mark is that, in contrast to their first and second wave counterparts, they don't think that baptism of the holy spirit is subsequent to conversion, though there are subsequent fillings.
> 
> Wayne Grudem was a good friend of John Wimber and a part of Vineyard for awhile. He wrote numerous position papers defending their doctrine. I don't think he's associated with the movement now, and the Vineyard churches started recognizing female pastors about five or so years ago.



Bill McCartney, former CU football coach and founder of the Promise Keepers, was a member of a Vineyard church in Boulder, CO back in the 1990s. He now attends an SBC church in Boulder and I believe is no longer a part of the movement.

However, McCartney (as of 3 years ago) was associated with something called the "Jerusalem Now" movement, but I don't think the Vineyard movement is associated with that.

To me, it is bizarre and sad that Christians have to be involved with a "movement" in order to feel like they have meaning in their life or that they are "growing" and making an impact for something.


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## raekwon

Interestingly enough, the Vineyard's former president, Todd Hunter, left the movement and is now an Anglican bishop.


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## J. Dean

James Ryle (not to be confused with J.C. Ryle) also was associated with the Vineyard movement. I remember MacArthur bringing him up in his book _Reckless Faith_. Also see http://www.discernment-ministries.org/Articles/Ryle'sVineyardTheology.pdf

Keith Green was also associated with the Vineyard, although he did not emphasize the charismatic side as much, at least not in his concerts. Sad, because I like some of Keith's songs.


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## Joseph Scibbe

raekwon said:


> Interestingly enough, the Vineyard's former president, Todd Hunter, left the movement and is now an Anglican bishop.



I am planning on becoming the first Baptist Pope


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## steadfast7

kodos said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would generally stay clear of any long term involvement with their movement on doctrinal grounds, however, Sovereign Grace Ministries (CJ Mahaney) who are "Reformed Charismatics" actually have a very good reputation among Reformed evangelicals and I would endorse them for those who inclined in that direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd probably steer them clear of endorsing SGM either - their "Pope" of sorts (CJ Mahaney) just stepped down, and the sgmsurvivors site has a ton of documents from his inner circle.
> 
> Once you believe God speaks to you outside of His Word, the road to error and gross sin is catastrophic. Regardless of how many letters in the TULIP acrostic you hold to.
Click to expand...

 You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to the bounds of the Holy Spirit's operation and the gravity of the "error" of continuationism (which are still open to debate), but I'm merely pointing out that godly men, reasonably accepted within the Reformed evangelical movement (Grudem, Piper, Storms, etc) are continuationists. As for Mahaney's personal life, we know nothing about it and have no right to comment. I humbly advise you not to go down the road of spreading gossip or employing an ad hominem argument. The articles that have arisen seem clear that he is making very serious plans to rectify whatever situation he's in, and is under the counsel and accountability of men like Mark Dever. That he should choose to step down temporarily and be this open and public about it speaks volumes about his Christian character, in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 01:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 AM ----------




R Harris said:


> To me, it is bizarre and sad that Christians have to be involved with a "movement" in order to feel like they have meaning in their life or that they are "growing" and making an impact for something.



Brother Randy, perhaps you were born and raised a PCA member, but for many of us, and a rising number of our generation, who have embraced Reformed theology by means of a God-ordained "movement" in the past decade or so sweeping across North America to return to historic Christianity and the doctrines of grace, I can only praise God for. That there is impact being made and a new sense of meaning instilled in newly Reformed Christians is without doubt. Rather than it being "bizarre and sad", why shouldn't we simply be thankful?


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## kodos

Even godly men can teach error. Significant error. I believe that Charismatic teaching leads to significant error. Gross error. It places emphasis on extraordinary gifts and means as opposed to the Ordinary Means that God has *promised* to bless. It also leaves us with searching for Christ+ something else.

As for SGM, just from their polity (hey, look they've found more apostles!) I do not understand them to be reformed.

Look, I've never met a denomination that has a "survivors" club (typically you have to go to cults for that). The stories coming out of the SGM are pretty bad, regardless of the situation with Mahaney. Of course, you can choose to ignore this extra piece of data, but I still maintain - the fruit of charismatic teaching is truly rotten. And is incompatible with Reformed teaching. Every time it's tried, it tends to implode.



steadfast7 said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would generally stay clear of any long term involvement with their movement on doctrinal grounds, however, Sovereign Grace Ministries (CJ Mahaney) who are "Reformed Charismatics" actually have a very good reputation among Reformed evangelicals and I would endorse them for those who inclined in that direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd probably steer them clear of endorsing SGM either - their "Pope" of sorts (CJ Mahaney) just stepped down, and the sgmsurvivors site has a ton of documents from his inner circle.
> 
> Once you believe God speaks to you outside of His Word, the road to error and gross sin is catastrophic. Regardless of how many letters in the TULIP acrostic you hold to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to the bounds of the Holy Spirit's operation and the gravity of the "error" of continuationism (which are still open to debate), but I'm merely pointing out that godly men, reasonably accepted within the Reformed evangelical movement (Grudem, Piper, Storms, etc) are continuationists. As for Mahaney's personal life, we know nothing about it and have no right to comment. I humbly advise you not to go down the road of spreading gossip or employing an ad hominem argument. The articles that have arisen seem clear that he is making very serious plans to rectify whatever situation he's in, and is under the counsel and accountability of men like Mark Dever. That he should choose to step down temporarily and be this open and public about it speaks volumes about his Christian character, in my opinion.
Click to expand...


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## Rufus

> Even godly men can teach error. Significant error. I believe that Charismatic teaching leads to significant error. Gross error. It places emphasis on extraordinary gifts and means as opposed to the Ordinary Means that God has promised to bless. It also leaves us with searching for Christ+ something else.
> 
> As for SGM, just from their polity (hey, look they've found more apostles!) I do not understand them to be reformed.
> 
> Look, I've never met a denomination that has a "survivors" club (typically you have to go to cults for that). The stories coming out of the SGM are pretty bad, regardless of the situation with Mahaney. Of course, you can choose to ignore this extra piece of data, but I still maintain - the fruit of charismatic teaching is truly rotten. And is incompatible with Reformed teaching. Every time it's tried, it tends to implode.



SGM, I believe, said they are going to look over there church structure, etc. after accusations against them. And truly how many people are on those SGMsurvived sites? Somebody could make a website called survivingcalvinism.com and talk about how we all belong to a cult, actually, I've heard people call Calvinism a cult. We should wait to see what SGM is going to do. 

I believe this is also off-topic.


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## kodos

You're correct - this is off topic. I truly apologize. I only mentioned it because a previous poster was recommending SGM, but I've heard plenty of people raise red flags about their organization.

I will say however in closing, that those who call Calvinism a cult do it from the outside. An important distinction to make.



Rufus said:


> SGM, I believe, said they are going to look over there church structure, etc. after accusations against them. And truly how many people are on those SGMsurvived sites? Somebody could make a website called survivingcalvinism.com and talk about how we all belong to a cult, actually, I've heard people call Calvinism a cult. We should wait to see what SGM is going to do.
> 
> I believe this is also off-topic.


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## J. Dean

elnwood said:


> Wayne Grudem was a good friend of John Wimber and a part of Vineyard for awhile. He wrote numerous position papers defending their doctrine. I don't think he's associated with the movement now, and the Vineyard churches started recognizing female pastors about five or so years ago.


I'm a little lost. I thought Grudem was reformed.


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## raekwon

Grudem holds to the TULIP, but is not confessionally reformed.


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## Curt

Joseph Scibbe said:


> I am planning on becoming the first Baptist Pope



I believe this idea will go up in smoke.


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## steadfast7

I was careful to recommend SGM in so far as it falls into the "Reformed _evangelical_" camp, which Mahaney, Grudem and even Piper belong to. This is to be distinguished from the _confessionally_ Reformed. Even so, to a certain extent, we are happy to call these men "Reformed Brethren", at least they seem to be well received by confessional brothers like Sinclair Ferguson and Mark Dever. As per the OP, I was merely interested in talking of movements, not interested in lambasting particular individuals within them.


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## elnwood

raekwon said:


> Grudem holds to the TULIP, but is not confessionally reformed.



What portion of the London Baptist Confession does Wayne Grudem deviate?


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## smhbbag

> I am planning on becoming the first Baptist Pope





> I believe this idea will go up in smoke.



White smoke?


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## Edward

Joseph Scibbe said:


> I am planning on becoming the first Baptist Pope



Sorry, Criswell was the first to be called the Baptist Pope.


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## Curt

smhbbag said:


> I am planning on becoming the first Baptist Pope
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe this idea will go up in smoke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> White smoke?
Click to expand...


Indeed.


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## yeutter

*Lonnie Frisbee a cofounder of the Vineyard Movement*

Todd Hunter was once a leader of the Vineyard movement. As previously mentioned John Wimber was an early leader of the movement. Some dangerous wackos like Lonnie Frisbee were early associates of Wimber and played a significant role in founding the movement.


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## timmopussycat

Andres said:


> As Eric said, they are a charismatic sect to the extreme. What I mean is this is the group that was one of the first to get into the holy laughter and animal sounds, etc. They also used to advocate getting drunk in the spirit. They certainly aren't new though. Unless this is some other group with a similar name, the Vineyard group has been around since about the 80's. I believe John Wimber founded them. They really took off in the mid 90's with John Arnott and the Toronto Blessing. Again this is a really wacky group. Here is a clip of typical Toronto Blessing behavior.



I haven't moved in Charismatic circles for nearly two decades now, but If I recall correctly the Wimber-led Vinyard dissassociated iteself from TAF, John Arnott and the Holy Laughter animal sounds stuff.


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