# Arminian Salvation and mine



## jenney (Mar 29, 2007)

Someone whom I consider my brother in Christ has just told me I am unregenerate because, though a thorough-going Calvinist myself, I believe that one _can_ be an arminian and be saved. He said this is as heretical as arminianism itself and that I am saying one can be saved by a false gospel, which means I believe in a false gospel as well.

I understand the reasoning there but I'm going through something of a spiritual crisis right now of assurance and it is making me question whether my struggle is because I really have never believed Christ in the fiducia sense but only in the asensus sense.

My question:
I know this has been discussed here before. I'm having trouble locating the thread. Maybe my search terms have been too general, but I haven't been able to sort through to find it. Can someone help me locate the discussion that will be helpful in sorting out what God says about salvation:

Can Arminians be saved (and remain Arminians)?
How about Calvinists who believe they can? (we'll call them C1's)
And what about Calvinists who don't believe Arminians can but who believes that C1's can? (we'll call them C2's)
What about Calvinists who don't believe Arminians or C1's are saved but that C2's can be? (These would be C3's)
How many iterations does this thinking extend? C4's? C5's?

If there is no thread, would a few people graciously answer this question?

And if you believe I am not saved because I think one can be both an Arminian and a Christian, would you please explain to me the Gospel in simple terms so that I can believe it? Because I genuinely fear for my soul.

Thanks


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## Kaalvenist (Mar 29, 2007)

jenney said:


> Someone whom I consider my brother in Christ has just told me I am unregenerate because, though a thorough-going Calvinist myself, I believe that one _can_ be an arminian and be saved. He said this is as heretical as arminianism itself and that I am saying one can be saved by a false gospel, which means I believe in a false gospel as well.
> 
> I understand the reasoning there but I'm going through something of a spiritual crisis right now of assurance and it is making me question whether my struggle is because I really have never believed Christ in the fiducia sense but only in the asensus sense.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, would this be a Mr. Carpenter or Mr. Bain who told you this?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 29, 2007)

Jenney,
You're asking how a theologian gets saved. I'm not sure, it's very confusing. The beauty of scripture and the gospel is that my 6 year old can ask me and I'm not going to tell her about 'feducia' and 'asensus'. Please know the difference between these for your Biblical Theology exam however.

This is what God says:

Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

We probably shouldn't add too much to that or take anything away. My six year old and God wouldn't like us doing that.


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## CDM (Mar 29, 2007)

Kaalvenist said:


> Out of curiosity, would this be a Mr. Carpenter or Mr. Bain who told you this?



It does sound like thos guys.  



jenney said:


> Someone whom I consider my brother in Christ has just told me I am unregenerate because, though a thorough-going Calvinist myself, I believe that one _can_ be an arminian and be saved. He said this is as heretical as arminianism itself and that I am saying one can be saved by a false gospel, which means I believe in a false gospel as well.
> 
> I understand the reasoning there but I'm going through something of a spiritual crisis right now of assurance and it is making me question whether my struggle is because I really have never believed Christ in the fiducia sense but only in the asensus sense.
> 
> ...





> Can Arminians be saved (and remain Arminians)?



Yes. So can murderers, fornicators, thieves, liars, idolaters . . .

I'd love to help but you need to define what you mean by "Arminian". A 5 - point Arminian? Your average, confused broad evangelical Arminian, one who believes in free will, etc. ?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 29, 2007)

Smarmy hearts sometimes adopt Reformed theology because they like the intellectual edge it provides over other brands of Christianity.

If they are Christians themselves or not is something they truly should be worried about before they start condemning EVERY Arminian and Catholic as an unbeliever.


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## Kristine with a K (Mar 29, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> This is what God says:
> 
> Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
> 
> We probably shouldn't add too much to that or take anything away. My six year old and God wouldn't like us doing that.



Hallelujiah!


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## Tallen (Mar 29, 2007)

Some points to remember:

1) Arminius was a Dutch Reformed minister, who died without being removed from that position, and wasn't removed posthumously.

2) The Reformed document that refutes Arminianism, The Cannons of Dort, calls Arminianism _error_, not _heresy_.

3) Theology does not save us, election does, whereby we are born into a kingdom where we have a personal relationship with our Savior. If one must be "Reformed" in order for that to happen, what happened to all of those prior to the Reformation, including the Apostles. All of those called into that kingdom are done so, not because they have "proper doctrine" but because God has chosen them, even the most vilest person with a most heinous theology can be saved. Even one like the Apostle Paul, who was a Pharisee holding the coats of those stoning Christians.

4) There is much that Reformed theology and Arminian theology agree upon, namely that salvation is in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

5) That there is a new theology in town, called hyper-theological-ism, it says that one must have their theological ducks in order, in order to be saved. I really stupid claim, since the Apostles themselves disagreed at times about theology, and they didn't flit back and forth between being saved and not being saved.


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## Tallen (Mar 29, 2007)

Kaalvenist said:


> Out of curiosity, would this be a Mr. Carpenter or Mr. Bain who told you this?


 
Same thought I had.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 29, 2007)

Tallen said:


> Some points to remember:
> 
> 1) Arminius was a Dutch Reformed minister, who died without being removed from that position, and wasn't removed posthumously.
> 
> ...


As far as it being heresy will depend on the believer themselves.

There are different degrees of Arminian thought, one who is one by ignorance alone is likely a Christian.

One who rejects the doctrines of grace has added to the grace they receive if they do indeed have it.

An Open Theist which spawns forth as fruit of Arminianism is a blatant God-Hater and has no ignorance to claim for their positions merely blindness and cold heartedness.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 29, 2007)

Jenney,

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this, especially due to the reason. Before saying anything else, though, I want to say that the first person/people you should go to if you _ever_ struggle with doubting your salvation is/are your pastor/shepherding elder/elders. They are there specifically to continually re-emphasize and clarify the Gospel and all of its implications for you in your life.

Secondly, I highly doubt the person who told you that even knows what he is talking about with respect to the terms he's using and how they relate to your beliefs. Even the belief held by some Reformed theologians that "Arminians" cannot be saved is referring to the original, classical Arminian system held and presented by the Remonstrance in the 17th century. The non-Calvinists that dominate the evangelical world today are not Arminians in that classic sense. As Scott Bushey put it in one post, he believes that "Arminianism is heresy and those holding to it will perish. I don’t know of ever meeting an Arminian." Most non-Calvinists and "Arminians" today do not even know what that word means, and even if certain beliefs of some of them have logical implications that are heretical, fortunately most of them only hold to them because they do not even realize all the logical implications, and as such, they possess real faith despite that unrealized inconsistency.

So you should certainly have no fear regarding your understanding of the true Gospel because of your belief that non-Calvinists can be saved; rather, if anything, your friend's saying that you should in light of today's ordinary sense of the word "Arminian" is evidence of hyper-Calvinistic thinking on his part, not to mention bad historical theology.

I also cannot stress this enough: Do not look to your understanding of even the classical Remonstrance Arminian system and their possession or lack of salvation for assurance of your own; do not look to your covenant faithfulness; or a host of other things that Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike mistakenly make litmus tests for salvation due to a twisted understanding of the role of fruit in our assurance. Look to Christ, His perfect fulfillment of God's perfect standard, and your realization of your own hopelessness apart from a trust and dependence on that perfection of His being counted to you in exchange for your sin and rebellion counted to Christ, given through that very trust and willing dependence.

If you're struggling with assurance in other, possibly broader ways beyond this mistaken hyper-Calvinistic pointer that was given to you, again, speak with one or more of your elders or pastors on the matter. Seek their counsel. Also read Scripture; possibly read through Galatians, and if you do, take 1:6-10 in light of the rest of the book's clarification on what the "true Gospel" is, rather than any additional complications on what that means. You might also want to read through parts of the Heidelberg Catechism and Westminster Shorter Catechism that talk about the Gospel, salvation and assurance, and look at the Scripture references. I would also highly recommend Petrus Dathenus' short book, [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Christian-Comfort-Petrus-Dathenus/dp/1892777428]_The Pearl of Christian Comfort_[/ame]. Dathenus was a 16th-century Continental Reformer, and first translated the Heidelberg Catechism into Dutch. This piece is a brief (80 pages), easy-to-read dialogue between Dathenus and a believer named Elizabeth who is struggling with assurance on a number of levels.


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## Tallen (Mar 29, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> As far as it being heresy will depend on the believer themselves.


 
Heresy is determined by the church, and is declared as heresy by an ecumenical counsel. A heretic falls within those doctrines. You would do better by showing Arminianism as a Pelgian view, and do so without ad hominem and straw-men.



> There are different degrees of Arminian thought, one who is one by ignorance alone is likely a Christian.


 
An irrelivant argument. One can say similar things like, "There are different degrees of Clavinism,..." or "There are different degrees of Baptist,..." and this means little except to show that such statements show little. We are not Christians because we are ignorant of doctrine and if we get _more better doctrine_ we become _more better Christians. _We are Christians because God calls us and elects us for His purpose. We are regenerated and given life, whereby we enter into sanctification and the renewing of our mind. This happens as God sees fit through a personal relationship with Him, not as we theologically proclaim each other more fit.



> One who rejects the doctrines of grace has added to the grace they receive if they do indeed have it.


 
Not sure what you mean here.



> An Open Theist which spawns forth as fruit of Arminianism is a blatant God-Hater and has no ignorance to claim for their positions merely blindness and cold heartedness.


 
Open Theism isn't necessarily an Arminian fruit. I know of Open Theist who denounce Arminianism as heretical. And I guess that your ad hominem in this case is proof enough for you. 

"God-Hater"... hmmmm, I am wondering who is blind and cold hearted.


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## Tallen (Mar 29, 2007)

Amen, a post with some wisdom.


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 29, 2007)

Kaalvenist said:


> Out of curiosity, would this be a Mr. Carpenter or Mr. Bain who told you this?



Who are Carpenter and Bain?? They sound like true Hypers to me.


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## BertMulder (Mar 29, 2007)

Tallen said:


> Some points to remember:
> 
> 1) Arminius was a Dutch Reformed minister, who died without being removed from that position, and wasn't removed posthumously.
> 
> ...



Sorry to correct you, brother, important as the doctrines of election are, but we are not saved by election, but by grace alone, through faith.

That being said, I know what you meant, and agree.

The good thing is that we are not saved by the theology we hold, otherwise we would all go to hell.

"There is none that doeth good, no not one"

Now a teacher of heresy.... Scripture tells us not to have anything to do with such.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 29, 2007)

Tallen said:


> An irrelivant argument. One can say similar things like, "There are different degrees of Clavinism,..." or "There are different degrees of Baptist,..." and this means little except to show that such statements show little. We are not Christians because we are ignorant of doctrine and if we get _more better doctrine_ we become _more better Christians. _We are Christians because God calls us and elects us for His purpose. We are regenerated and given life, whereby we enter into sanctification and the renewing of our mind. This happens as God sees fit through a personal relationship with Him, not as we theologically proclaim each other more fit.



I'd be careful with this line of thought. It is indeed a common and most unbiblical, unedifying and dangerous error to tie theological precision on various issues too closely to one's salvation. At the same time, however, it is very easy to go too far to the other extreme with an incorrect understanding of the "We're not saved by perfect doctrine, we're saved by faith in Christ" mindset as well. As you rightly implied in your noting the nature of heresy and the councils of the visible Church, the saving faith granted to elect people by the Spirit in His timing is necessarily a faith that will at least have seeds of correct understanding on a number of issues (e.g., God's existence, His perfection, our sin, deity of Christ, substitutional nature of the atonement, etc.) - even though a newly-converted person usually will not be familiar with the various theological terms to describe that root understanding, or even have thought-out all the concepts to a certain extent.



Tallen said:


> "God-Hater"... hmmmm, I am wondering who is blind and cold hearted.



Let's try not to turn this discussion into one filled with personal attacks and later-regretted misunderstandings - especially since its main purpose is to clarify to Jenney the nature of some of these issues and how they relate to assurance and doctrine, in light of her question and situation.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 29, 2007)

Tallen said:


> Heresy is determined by the church, and is declared as heresy by an ecumenical counsel. A heretic falls within those doctrines. You would do better by showing Arminianism as a Pelgian view, and do so without ad hominem and straw-men.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you need to read more carefully before you post in the future.
No one was launching ad hominem attacks or trying to set up straw men by simply asserting that there are different degrees of those who express an Arminian theology.

Had you read closer and earlier you would have noticed that I defend the fact that many are brothers.

To call citing the different beliefs that fall under the umbrella of Arminian thought as "irrelevent" in terms of which lean closer to heretical thinking is the true strawman, because you dismiss something personally doesn't disqualify it from discussion.

My point was that some error within Arminian thought out of ignorance and others do lean towards heresy and that I'm not prepared to sweep them all together, how that was translated into the need for a senseless tongue lashing is beyond me but I ask you read more thoroughly in the future before replying.

As for Open Theism, it is heresy, plain and simple and to adopt that thought comes from examining scripture and rejecting much of it or twisting it perversely and that is done by a foolish heart because the hoops jumped through to achieve the desired results are an absolute circus and not a mere oversight.


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## jenney (Mar 29, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> The beauty of scripture and the gospel is that my 6 year old can ask me and I'm not going to tell her about 'feducia' and 'asensus'. Please know the difference between these for your Biblical Theology exam however.



Well, I didn't mean the words themselves, I meant the meaning of them! It was a matter of precision, not theologically big words. I can say "I believe" but only mean an intellectual assent to the truthfulness of the Gospel, but not actually have faith in Christ. I have to ask myself if that is what I've actually done all along.



> Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.


The heart of the unbeliever is utterly deceived. Many think they have saving faith when all they have is a theological system to which they hold (that would match mine) and in practice rely on their works to save them. God is the one who gives us spiritual understanding, and new hearts. I can't know by looking at myself whether I have that because my heart will deceive me.

The key is to look to Christ. But I keep re-seeing my failings: my coldness toward God, my hardness of heart, my continuing struggle with discontentment, my pride, and I think I really ought to make some progress in these areas. If I've already come to Christ, shouldn't there be fruit?

How would your six year old answer?


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## Ravens (Mar 29, 2007)

Jenney,

I've struggled with the same things (everyone has). And ultimately, the only "answer" or "action" you can take is to flee to Christ. Whether, ultimately, you are saved or not saved is in the hands of God, and hinges on the work of Christ.

Like Peter said, essentially, "Where else can we go? You have the words of eternal life." 

There's a reason for the struggles that you are experiencing, but fundamentally, the only thing to do is to take our weak, cold, hard, tattered faith and place every bit of it in Christ. I mean its simple... but what else can you do?

Flee to Him, cling to Him, confess everything to Him, and leave the rest up to God. Ya' know?


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## Reformingstudent (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Who are Carpenter and Bain?? They sound like true Hypers to me.



I believe these are their websites: 
http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=572


http://www.outsidethecamp.org/

very dangerous indeed. In the Outside the camp website, they even have Calvin himself on their list of hall of Shame. Apparently, Mr. Calvin himself wasn't Calvinistic enough.  
Go figure


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 29, 2007)

Reformingstudent said:


> I believe these are their websites:
> http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=572
> 
> 
> ...




I learn something new everyday.  Spurgeon and Pink along with Boston and Bonar made the list. I see my guess was right on.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 29, 2007)

Reformingstudent said:


> I believe these are their websites:
> http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=572
> 
> 
> ...


Don't the people at 5solas reject the book of James from the canon?


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 29, 2007)

jenney said:


> The key is to look to Christ. But I keep re-seeing my failings: my coldness toward God, my hardness of heart, my continuing struggle with discontentment, my pride, and I think I really ought to make some progress in these areas. If I've already come to Christ, shouldn't there be fruit?



The very fact that you're concerned about these failings, and feeling your own inadequacy due to them, speaks volumes. So often even when we know intellectually that the fruits of sanctification are a lifelong, gradual, even subtle process, in our hearts we hold ourselves to a higher standard and practically expect them to be more immediate. But they are not going to be - indeed, it may seem to us even over years that we still struggle with sin to practically the same extent. That is nowhere expressed better than by Paul in Romans 7:14-25:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

It is important to note that these words of his are _right in the middle of_ him talking about his being dead to sin, alive to God and a slave to righteousness (before these verses; ch. 6), and having life in the Spirit, being an heir with Christ, and anticipating future glory due to God's everlasting love (after these verses; ch. 8). Yet right in the middle of his words on all the wonderful aspects of salvation and life in Christ as such, he blatantly emphasizes his struggle with sin with such extreme language that he almost sounds like a lot of the sincere believers today who doubt their salvation for those very reasons! Yet we therefore see that even struggles as strong and persistent as that do not in fact mean that we are not Christ's, but quite the contrary, since we dislike those struggles in such a way due to the renewed nature of our regenerate hearts.

These are exactly the types of issues that Petrus Dathenus discusses in the dialogue of _The Pearl of Christian Comfort_. And in light of your elaboration on your struggle with assurance as coming in part from a lack of fruit (rather than from the hyper-Calvinistic accusation alone), I would definitely recommend it to you as a Scripture-filled help with this struggle.


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 29, 2007)

Reformingstudent said:


> I believe these are their websites:
> http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=572
> 
> 
> ...




You want to see some heresy, check this out:

http://www.outsidethecamp.org/marriagelaw.htm


There is a difference between a one-time act of adultery and being called an "adulterer" or an "adulteress." One who is an "adulterer" or an "adulteress" is a person whose life is characterized by the sin of repeated adultery. Romans 7:1-3 says that someone who is in an ongoing marital relationship with someone other than his/her original spouse while the original spouse is still alive is someone whose life is characterized by the sin of repeated adultery (called an "adulteress" in the case of a woman). And 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says that such people are unregenerate. Thus, everyone whose life is characterized by the sin of a marital relationship with someone other than the original spouse while the original spouse is still alive is unregenerate.


So if I'm reading this right, anybody who has remarried after a divorce and the former spouse is still living is UNREGENERATE.


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## Tallen (Mar 29, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> I'd be careful with this line of thought. It is indeed a common and most unbiblical, unedifying and dangerous error to tie theological precision on various issues too closely to one's salvation. At the same time, however, it is very easy to go too far to the other extreme with an incorrect understanding of the "We're not saved by perfect doctrine, we're saved by faith in Christ" mindset as well. As you rightly implied in your noting the nature of heresy and the councils of the visible Church, the saving faith granted to elect people by the Spirit in His timing is necessarily a faith that will at least have seeds of correct understanding on a number of issues (e.g., God's existence, His perfection, our sin, deity of Christ, substitutional nature of the atonement, etc.) - even though a newly-converted person usually will not be familiar with the various theological terms to describe that root understanding, or even have thought-out all the concepts to a certain extent.


 
Yes agreed. There is a balanced and biblical position.





> Let's try not to turn this discussion into one filled with personal attacks and later-regretted misunderstandings - especially since its main purpose is to clarify to Jenney the nature of some of these issues and how they relate to assurance and doctrine, in light of her question and situation.


 
Point taken and understood. For give me of any offense, one and all.


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## Reformingstudent (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> You want to see some heresy, check this out:
> 
> http://www.outsidethecamp.org/marriagelaw.htm
> 
> ...



 Oops, well I guess theres no hope for me then. Rat turds.


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 29, 2007)

Reformingstudent said:


> Oops, well I guess theres no hope for me then. Rat turds.




Yes there is! Kill your ex and then you'll be regenerate!


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## BertMulder (Mar 29, 2007)

I guess I am condemned too, as the PRC made the "outside the camp" list...

Glad it is God, and not man that judges...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Yes there is! Kill your ex and then you'll be regenerate!


Yowzers! Even in jest, cyberspace can take you out of context, be careful brother.


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 29, 2007)

Ok all...I don't put on my "Moderator" shows too often, but with this thread and a few others I've not liked the direction we've gone as of late. There seems to be more sarcaism and border line rude comments in many threads as of late/ I am NOT blaming anyone but simply asking ALL OF US to take a deep breath and respond kindly to one another or not at all.


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## Bandguy (Mar 29, 2007)

jenney said:


> The key is to look to Christ. But I keep re-seeing my failings: my coldness toward God, my hardness of heart, my continuing *struggle* with discontentment, my pride, and I think I really ought to make some progress in these areas. If I've already come to Christ, shouldn't there be fruit?
> 
> How would your six year old answer?



Jenney,

I think the key word here is "struggle". Does your sin bother you? Do you constantly struggle with it? Take a look at Romans 7 and I think you will know why I think this is one sure sign that you are saved and are making progress in these areas as God sanctifies you. Personally, I think you are in good company with the Apostle Paul.


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 29, 2007)

Bandguy said:


> Jenney,
> 
> I think the key word here is "struggle". Does your sin bother you? Do you constantly struggle with it? Take a look at Romans 7 and I think you will know why I think this is one sure sign that you are saved and are making progress in these areas as God sanctifies you. Personally, I think you are in good company with the Apostle Paul.




I agree. The longer I live the more I'm convinced that, in some ways, the Christian is defined by "The Struggle" against sin. Someone who is not regenerate is not going to even give it a thought for the most part. Oh they may have some thoughts of fear regarding punnishment and whatnot but they will not truly struggle with sin itself. It's like a saying I heard once,"Everyone wants to be free from Hell. Not everyone wants to be free from their sin."


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## jenney (Mar 29, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> Before saying anything else, though, I want to say that the first person/people you should go to if you _ever_ struggle with doubting your salvation is/are your pastor/shepherding elder/elders.


You are right about that. I don't know why I didn't think of it already! That is exactly what I would have told someone else who asked me the same question!



> As Scott Bushey put it in one post, he believes that "Arminianism is heresy and those holding to it will perish. I don’t know of ever meeting an Arminian."


I hadn't thought about this, either. What threw me was the assumed common definition. I didn't mean the classical five points of Arminianism. I only meant modern evangelical who isn't a Calvinist.



> Look to Christ...
> 
> speak with one or more of your elders or pastors on the matter...
> 
> Also read Scripture



All excellent advice.

I will follow these three suggestions and maybe read some of the other things you recommended, too.

Thank you!


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## Reformingstudent (Mar 29, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Yes there is! Kill your ex and then you'll be regenerate!



Don't think I didn't want to.  


just kidding. maybe.


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## Andrew P.C. (Mar 29, 2007)

jenney said:


> Someone whom I consider my brother in Christ has just told me I am unregenerate



I would start off by saying that anyone who calls themself a Christian, says "You are unregenerate" and causes you to stumble will be judged on this very act. Paul tells the Corinthians in 1 Cor 8: "11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ."


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## puritan628 (Mar 29, 2007)

*saving conversion*

I don't have the book here at my home at the moment - I either donated it to the church for the library, or it's at my office, but one book that really helped me to understand the conversion process was Solomon Stoddard's "The Nature of Saving Conversion." The book takes the reader through the stages of conversion, from awakening to conversion, through sanctification. Note: Solomon Stoddard was Jonathan Edwards' grandfather, so it was written in the 1700s.

One reason this book helped me a lot was because of similar questions, doubts, fears, etc. I had similar to yours, Jenney.

Likewise, C.S. Lewis's "God in the Dock" and "Mere Christianity" have helped me to understand our struggles with sin, knowing we will never be completely without sin in our flesh, but that our heart, soul, mind, and strength are focused on glorifying God and enjoying Him forever.


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## Tom Roach (Mar 30, 2007)

I believe that an Arminian is saved once they realize the sovereignty of God and His incredible power, in which case they would reject modern Arminianism, the belief that humans choose God, have some power over God, and can partly adjust His Will for us based on our actions. I believe people feel this way because they are stubborn in accepting what God has given them when they try to be really good people, and they have faltering faith that He will one day bring them something great. I personally know that God will sometimes turn our lives upside-down to give us a clear choice: trust Him or don't. Naturally, if we trust Him, we will do good.

Arminians seem almost gnostic to me, finding wisdom and knowledge in themselves, whereas the Gospels make it clear that we can only find wisdom when God dwells in our hearts (Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.) Focus on "the kingdom of God is within you."

I hope that helps. Any corrections are welcomed


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## 5solasmom (Mar 30, 2007)

(((Jenney)))

Friend, what great advice and encouragement you've gotten from this thread. I'll be praying for you. I know I struggle with the same failings and fears so often.


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## puritan lad (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm sure that I'm not the only one, but I used to be a saved Arminian. In fact, I was such for over 20 years. It was through my studies of God's Word that I became Reformed.

So yes, an Arminian may be saved, even though he gives himself a little too much credit for that salvation. Getting it right is where Bible Study comes in (very lacking in many Arminian churches.)


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## non dignus (Mar 30, 2007)

Jenney,

You sound genuinely saved to me. I ask myself the same thing everyday, "What if I'm wrong?" Thank God it's all in His hands.

Are Arminians saved? 

The seasoned teacher of Arminianism who rejects Calvinism has real reason to worry, in my opinion. It's one thing to be a new Christian in a popular church learning the Bible for the first time. It's quite another to be in the same Arminian church after 20 years (and after Bible school, understanding alternatives like Calvinism) teaching that stuff. 

Do we have the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding us or not?

If one knows the Bible thoroughly and knows Calvinism thoroughly and doesn't make the connection, how can he have the Holy Spirit guiding him into all truth?

???

P.S. any Calvinist who says YOU can't be saved because you haven't properly assessed someone else's salvation is a schmuck.


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