# The fourth Commandment.



## John Bunyan (Dec 7, 2011)

[BIBLE]Deuteronomy 5:12-14[/BIBLE]

I've read a commentary -by the World Reformed Fellowship, if i remember well- stating that the sabbath may be any day we want, preferably Sunday, since it is an old, catholic (meaning universal) and unifying christian tradition.

My question relates to verse 13. We all know that we should keep the Sabbath, sanctifying one day of our weeks. Verse 13, however, also states "Six days thou shall labor and do all your work,". Does that means that the fourth commandment is not only about how many days should we rest, but how many days should we work? That would imply, I see, that we should not rest on Saturdays, nor go out on vacations - for we would still under the command to work 6/7; and when I say work I'm not talking, necessarily, about going into an office and calculating stuff; voluntary work and gardening are good enough.

I know I am probably wrong, since no one follows this interpretation, but could anyone comment on the topic?

Also, do you agree with the fifth topic of the IX article (The expedient retention of certain traditions) in the World Reformed Fellowship's Statement of Faith? 



> 5. The expedient retention of certain traditions
> 
> Some traditions have become so deeply rooted and universal in the Christian world that to alter them would achieve nothing and lead to unnecessary division within the church. An example of this is the custom of worshipping God on Sunday which, though clearly practised in the early church, is not specifically enjoined in the New Testament. There are circumstances where particular Christian bodies, for example in certain Muslim countries, may find it more convenient to worship on another day of the week, but no church should take it upon itself to abandon Sunday worship merely because it is not specifically required by Scripture. In cases of this kind the visible unity of the Christian world should be maintained if no theological principle is compromised thereby.


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## Zach (Dec 7, 2011)

I would absolutely yes. We are called to work six days a week. I wouldn't jump to conclusions of no vacations or going into the office on Saturday. We can do work on vacation (laundry, dishes, etc.) and we can do work around the house on Saturdays. For me, on Saturday, I do my homework. I am still working. Were I to do nothing other than lay around and watch College football, I would be breaking the fourth commandment.


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## jwithnell (Dec 7, 2011)

I agree that the 4th commandment includes the necessity of work. Even in the garden, Adam was given a job which was then frustrated in the fall. The sabbath rest includes the mercy that God provides what we need for seven days when we only work six. And I'm not sure we can pick and choose which day of the week. The commandment to rest on the seventh (a particular day) was given from the beginning.


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## Scott1 (Dec 7, 2011)

Yes, the fourth commandment is about work and resting.

It regulates our life, the first part establishing an ordinary pattern of working and recreating, the ordinary pattern of the six days, and resting from that, and making holy the seventh so worship is prioritized all the day.

The command emphasizes more one day in seven, that is a proportion of time. But Sunday is not to be arbitrarily disregarded because a common day is necessary for Christians to worship (remember they are working and recreating the other six days).

Imagine the disruption to covenant community life if there was not a common day for worship.

But look at the pattern of God's people in the Old Testament and early church- they weren't individually selecting any day based on personal convenience.

Remember also, the Ten Commandments summarize the moral law for all mankind to obey until the end of this world (when the Lord returns).

They are not only for Christians, but God commands all to do so. Disobedience of them heaps up but more grounds for their condemnation on the judgment day and the miserable consequences of sin in this life as well.

Some of those consequences in this life of not keeping the fourth commandment, are sloth which tends to poverty, idolatry, "burnout," high anxiety, stress related health problems and many more.

The last thing obedience would require is to make worship a completely personal convenience.

It's about God, and by derivation, holy communion with His people.


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2011)

John Bunyan said:


> stating that the sabbath may be any day we want,



If by 'we' you mean 'us individually', then the answer is no. If by 'we' you mean 'us as the visible church', then the answer is yes. Who knows how many times the calendar has changed since creation? Is our first day of the week exactly the same as the first day of creation? Who knows? The reason 'Sunday' is considered the first day of the week is because the visible church has agreed that it to be so.

Also, ditto to what Scott said.


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## JP Wallace (Dec 8, 2011)

I would disagree with the idea that Sunday worship is merely an agreed, convenient, acceptable day. The Apostle Paul teaches us that no one can bind us to any day, we are free in Christ,

Colossians 2:16-17 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 

Who then can bind us to a day? God can and God has. Which day? No longer the 7th day but the 1st day. How do we know this, because ALL the NT evidence points to this; resurrection (Christ 'rests' from His redemptive work), all gatherings of early church mentioned, John's Lord's Day. What we call Sunday IS the Christian Sabbath, any other day is an unlawful, imposition of man.


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2011)

JP Wallace said:


> Who then can bind us to a day? God can and God has. Which day? No longer the 7th day but the 1st day.



Agreed. My point was that the visible church must agree on which day is the 1st day of the week. For example, Samoa recently moved the International Date Line Eastward and therefore lost a whole day on its calendar: http://www.samoaobserver.ws/index.p...=62&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

During that week there was only be 6 days instead of seven. Christians in that country had to agree to worship on a different first day of the week than they had been. 

This has happened before in Samoa. In 1892 they moved the date line the other way and experienced an 8 day week. The Philippines and Alaska have also experienced these changes. It is my understanding that the EO still use both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars.


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## JP Wallace (Dec 8, 2011)

Yes Ken, I should have made it plain I was responding to the OP (and particularly the idea we can have the Sabbath on Friday or Saturday depending on location - I'm not content with that idea), not to your comment. We ought to be too concerned with the mathematics as it were, otherwise we'd have to go back to the Garden!

To quote the quoted document in the OP

"An example of this is the custom of worshipping God on Sunday which, though clearly practised in the early church, is not specifically enjoined in the New Testament."

I disagree with that, the normal worship day in Judaism was the 7th i.e. our Saturday, it *is* clear and enjoined that the disciples worshipped on the 1st Day - which *is* the Sunday, therefore this is more than a custom, rather it is a doctrine extrapolated from practice. If we had no idea about the 6th day Saturday Sabbath then things would be different, but we do know and so they're not.


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## John Bunyan (Dec 8, 2011)

When I said "we" I meant the local church.

The idea is that since calendars, weeks and etc are arbitrarily defined, we can as well define the first (or seventh, since some of you appear to disagree) day to be any day we want to.

Since the commandment says, merely, "Six days thou shall labor, but the seventh is the Sabbath of the LORD", if we start counting the week on wednesday, for example, sabbath would be on Tuesday. After all, the original text never says "but the saturday (or sunday) is the Sabbath of the LORD" - at least in english, for in portuguese the word sabbath and the word saturday are the same.

We have to realize that not every country divides it's week like we do it in the West. In muslim countries, for example, the common practice is to rest on Fridays, so that if christians worship on Sunday they have to skip work once per week, and work on the day meant to be the resting day.

Also, if we were to count down the days since the times of old, we would probably not be following the same week pattern than ancient hebrews.

Just take a look at this page on Wikipedia to see how many different forms of organizing the calendar humans have already used, and, in some places, still use.

Also, would be good to know how did christians living under these different calendars kept the Sabbath, and how do they worship today.


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## J. Dean (Dec 8, 2011)

We also need to be careful about our designation of what does and does not constitute work that violates the Sabbath. Remember that by the time of Christ the Pharisees had attached ridiculous amendments to the Sabbath commandment (such as not even rubbing two kernels of grain together in order to eat, or walking further than a furlong). Jesus Himself dismissed attaching such frivolous amendments and called people back to a plain understanding of the Sabbath (see Luke 13:10-17).

There is a real danger with the Sabbath day of turning it into a legalistic, overly-restrictive burden upon Christians if it is not properly understood within the whole context of Scripture. I've seen this firsthand, with my mother who put more stock on somebody's keeping of the Sabbath than whether or not they trusted in Christ for salvation. The Sabbath is not the "be all end all" doctrine that determines somebody's salvation, and we need to remember that while dealing with this topic.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 8, 2011)

As someone who lived in a Mslm-dominated country, I can tell you that the Friday holyday has no Sabbatarian connotations for the typical Mslm. Businesses are not universally closed all day, etc. A Christian-run business might be conspicuous for its being closed on a Sunday, or it might not.

Furthermore, it is generally acknowledged that what we call Sunday is the first day of the week. See the chart on this page: Islamic calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Choosing "Friday" for a day of worship was Islm's way of setting itself apart from the Jews or Christians. *Thus, it is well-known that Christians worship on the first-day*. The Mslm's work week ends, then he worships, then (assuming a five-day business-week) he has a day off before the week begins anew. No sane person proposes that this takes place on an unchanged, seven-day cycle that has seen no hiccups since the world began; but rather we look to imitate the universal church, as it follows Christ, whatever the rest of the culture does.

Yes, there are accommodations Christians make in Islmc countries. For instance, there was a "Friday-School" program in one church in the city I lived in (probably quite a common practice in many churches), in order to to make Christian-instruction available even to those outside Christianity. But regular worship is on the Lord's Day.

Christians worship on the first day of the week, whatever that day is, in whatever culture it may be. In an international, interconnected world, it seems doubly foolish for Christians to redefine "the first day" in one country to be any other day than the day when the rest of the Christian world is gathering. Where is the universal church, and a proper conformity, if the principle of self-definition reigns? And if we "redefine" the day to conform to some other cultural-norm, how is this not idolatry?


Jesus is the only Person with the authority to set his own Day. And he has set it. And the church from the days of the Apostles recognized it. And they, and we, obey our Lord in this, as in everything.


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## John Bunyan (Dec 8, 2011)

> As someone who lived in a Mslm-dominated country, I can tell you that the Friday holyday has no Sabbatarian connotations for the typical Mslm. Businesses are not universally closed all day, etc. A Christian-run business might be conspicuous for its being closed on a Sunday, or it might not.



Thanks for the contribution. In wich country did you lived in? I believe the confession wich I quoted had in mind some specific muslim countries and not all of them, since, I believe, not all muslim countries are equally religious. I believe muslim countries are more religious than Western ones, though there are probably many lapsed muslims too - is that right? (I know, for once, that in my country everyone says "I'm Catholic", even tough almost no one knows the Pope's name). 
It seems to me that the document is talking about worshipping on Fridays being acceptable for Christians living, I don't know, in a Taleban-ruled village, maybe?



> Christians worship on the first day of the week, whatever that day is, in whatever culture it may be


Indeed, but to the Sabbath to be properly kept in this way, the local calendar must have 7-day weeks. If I where to live in some place where the week has 8 days, for example, I wouldnt be able to worship every first day of the week, but my day of whorship would be different in every week.

And you seem to agree that the day must not be Sunday, then? For in Iran, for example, the week starts on Saturday and ends on Friday, so that their "Saturday" is our "Sunday". Is that correct? Any day is good, no matter what they call it, as long as it is the first day of a 7-day week?


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Christians worship on the first day of the week, whatever that day is, in whatever culture it may be.



It is interesting to note that some are pushing for an international change to Monday as the first day of the week. How should the church respond?

See ISO 8601


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## Scott1 (Dec 8, 2011)

These are common sentiments.

A few comments below.



J. Dean said:


> We also need to be careful about our designation of what does and does not constitute work that violates the Sabbath. Remember that by the time of Christ the Pharisees had attached ridiculous amendments to the Sabbath commandment (such as not even rubbing two kernels of grain together in order to eat, or walking further than a furlong). Jesus Himself dismissed attaching such frivolous amendments and called people back to a plain understanding of the Sabbath (see Luke 13:10-17).
> 
> 
> Remember that Old Testament Israel had to keep both the civil law given Israel and the ceremonial law. These kinds of law do not apply to New Testament believers today because the former expired with the unique Old Testament nation (except that some equitable principles might still apply); the latter are fulfilled in the perfect work of Christ.
> ...


In this generation, there seems to be less consciousness of the sabbath than the last. Almost no traces of people observing it to excess, maybe there are some, I just don't see them.

Far, far greater is the great masses of people profaning the day by treating it as a personal play day, a day to entertain and amuse themselves, or to catch-up on work. If not do the work, worry and talk about it in between watching football on television.

Believers will sometimes work in an hour or two for church in the midst of all the other violations, and rationalize that as somehow obeying.

But, remember, God said to make the day "holy," and remember to do so.

That's the way Westminster Chapter XXI summarizes the doctrine of Scripture. It is part of the way Scripture regulates the life of the believer.

It is very visible, and in one sense an inconvenience to the plans of men.

Yet, a great blessing, a delight, and something to testify to among God's people reminding them of creation and redemption, until our Lord returns.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 8, 2011)

John,
The country I lived in is not specially relevant to the question (though you may think so).

The document's statement reads (IX.5.):


> 5. The expedient retention of certain traditions
> 
> Some traditions have become so deeply rooted and universal in the Christian world that to alter them would achieve nothing and lead to unnecessary division within the church. An example of this is the custom of worshipping God on Sunday which, though clearly practised in the early church, is not specifically enjoined in the New Testament. There are circumstances where particular Christian bodies, for example in certain Muslim countries, may find it more convenient to worship on another day of the week, but no church should take it upon itself to abandon Sunday worship merely because it is not specifically required by Scripture. In cases of this kind the visible unity of the Christian world should be maintained if no theological principle is compromised thereby.


I do not accept the rationale offered by the statement. I think there are significant problems with it, _although, I would consent to the notion that there may be occasions when the safety of gathered Christians may well force them to gather when they can, rather when the commandment norms their practice without external interference._ I appreciate the fact that the writers/subscribers wish to affirm church-unity; but in my view unity or uniformity should always be based solely on the Word, and never on man-made tradition, or else it will assume the force of law.

Simply put, there is no "custom" of worshipping God on Sunday; there is a "command" to worship God on the day He has designated, which to the end of the world He has made the first day of the week, the "Lord's Day" (from its previous position at the end of the week). The composers of this document disagree, saying that the day of worship "is not specifically enjoined/required in the New Testament." I don't know exactly what they mean by that, but I believe there is more than sufficient data to be found from the NT, as well as from the fullness of the Scriptures, to affirm that regular, ordinary, weekly worship belongs to the first-day.

If there is anyplace in the world today, apart from some tiny and isolated cultures, that still uses something beside a 7-day week, I don't know of it, and neither does Wikipedia , Week - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Traditional calendars that buck the trend are confined to religious markings, etc., which are then indexed to the official calendar. The whole world marches to the 7-day beat. 

My comments about worshipping on the first-day of the week should be understood as conforming to the normal, seven-day week--and institution that God created, and has only perverted in various cultures, and at various times. Supposing some Christian had to get by in a non-conforming culture possessed of an odd "week," I can only imagine what his expedient would be. I know this: God made a seven-day week, and set the pattern for humankind to live by.

I only agree that the day need not be "Sunday" if conventionally speaking, the whole word agrees that a different day should be the "first-of-the-week." As for Iran, I know that this page: Iranian calendars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia says, "In the Iranian calendar, every week begins on Saturday and ends on Friday." But this is simply conventional. Both the page I linked to above concerning the universal Islamic calendar, and this page on the Iranian calendar, both layout the Islamic "Days of the Week" thus:

1 - yekshambe (one of the week) corresponds to Sunday, etc.
2 - doshambe (two of the week)
3 - seshambe (three of the week)
4 - chæharshambe (four of the week)
5 - panjshambe (five of the week)
6 - jom'e / adineh (Meeting day, Arabic / Persian)
7 - shambe (week/sabbath) the word is literally 'sabbath' loan-word from the Arab/Semitic languages​

In other words, the Iranian calendar conventionally puts "sabbath" at the beginning, the first work day of five, then second comes "day one," third comes "day two," and down the line. So, even in the names of their days, they reflect a pre-existing order that puts Sunday as "day one" of the week.

I would say, that proves one thing--the Christians who worship on day "One of the week" in Iran are not only in conformity with their own native calendar, in defiance of national convention, but also in conformity with Scripture and the rest of the church.

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.


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## John Bunyan (Dec 8, 2011)

Although it is true that almost no one uses non seven-day weeks today, that is not the case for the entire globe in the last 2000 years of christianity, and it may not be the case in the future. If a rule of practice cannot be extrapolated to all possible situations, then it is not that a good practice, after all. Being one of the first chinese converts, for example, I would never be able to rest always on the first day of the week.

In the article we see, for example, what 2 recent events like the French and Russian Revolutions can do to change (even if by a small period of time) the calendar.

The heart of the problem is: the days of the christian theological week are not necessarily the same as the days of the wordly week.

If tomorrow, for example, some country where to jump one day of their calendars (similar to what happened in Samoa), we would loose an entire day of our week. So suppose that the week has just begun, it is Sunday, and I have just kept my Sabbath correctly. Then I work until friday, then the government jumps Saturday and it is Sunday already. This is the first day of the week. I have worked only five days and it is already another week. Should I work one more day, and rest on Monday, or should I rest on sunday, after only 5 days of work?


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## JP Wallace (Dec 8, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Simply put, there is no "custom" of worshipping God on Sunday; there is a "command" to worship God on the day He has designated, which to the end of the world He has made the first day of the week, the "Lord's Day" (from its previous position at the end of the week). The composers of this document disagree, saying that the day of worship "is not specifically enjoined/required in the New Testament." I don't know exactly what they mean by that, but I believe there is more than sufficient data to be found from the NT, as well as from the fullness of the Scriptures, to affirm that regular, ordinary, weekly worship belongs to the first-day.



Exactly. Mathematics, chronology etc. are utterly and completely irrelevant to the subject and always will be. Christ rose on the FIRST day which is our Sunday or whatever you want to call the day. It matters not one whit whether a given culture starts it week on what we called Wednesday or Monday or whatever, the Sabbath will occur in appox. 2 days time (this week) and then 7 days further as it has done since our Lord arose.


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2011)

John Bunyan said:


> Should I work one more day, and rest on Monday, or should I rest on sunday, after only 5 days of work?



The question is not what should 'I' do, but what should 'we' do. Our desire is to follow his command to worship together so we would have to come to an agreement. I think the church usually follows the civil government in such matters. In other words,, when Samoa changed the date line the church went along with the one time 8 day week.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 8, 2011)

John,
It just seems like you're trying to undo a norm, by postulating and proposing a multitude of exceptional cases. There's a saying in the legal profession: "Hard cases make bad law."

When there are occasional problems that arise with conforming to a biblical norm, we don't toss out the norm and go back to the drawing board. "Occasional" problems are not "systemic" problems.

You're hypothesis: that someday there might be significant or widespread abandonment of the social norm of the seven day week, is simply that--a hypothesis. There isn't any reason for me to think it is a likely hypothesis. We can thought-experiment all day, without coming up with any ideas that have real-world applications.

And this notion: that whatever we have to say about divine expectations must cover all conceivable contingencies without difficulty (or else the worth of what we deduce is suspect)--this method is a recipe for paralysis. It's impractical. It's unhelpful. It is manifestly useless as a tool for determining whether an exegetical conclusion is actually faithful to the Bible or not. The Bible is not a book of pragmatics. Christianity is not a pragmatic religion.

When something in our social-context goes against God's Word, so that we are pushed against conformity to God's Word, we must oppose and resist it, saying: "We must obey God, rather than men." It is theoretically possible that there is something wrong with our exegesis, and so problems in the world that push against our stance may force us to ask whether or not we have read Scripture aright. But we typically do not make good changes to our convictions in response to the moment when we are pushed. We need space that will help us determine the right course of action, rather than confusing "being pressed to change" with "needing to change."

The best thing to do, if suddenly for any conceivable reason one's state or culture of residence monkeyed about with the calendar (why the powers in that place should, in order to deviate from the whole planet, is anyone's guess?!?), perhaps is just ignore the change as best you can, and go along with the rest of mankind and Christianity. You are much more likely to have the culture revert back to the place in which you stood fast, than to have the novelty perpetuated, and you be the eternal "odd man out."

The case of Samoa has been raised. What was the purpose for doing what they did? To get into conformity with the rest of the world, which (wittingly or not) is following the biblical pattern. Shouldn't we thank God to live in times when the freedom to worship God on His cycle is a pre-set pattern for us?

As for how other times and places have "worked it out" in days when the order was fluid, etc., that's a matter of historical investigation. Knowing what those answers were may help a future generation, if such counsel is needed for similar problems in later days. But, so far as the question is: "How ought things to be?" enlightenment comes from study of the Word, and not from the vagaries of culture.

Is.8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."


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## John Bunyan (Dec 8, 2011)

> The question is not what should 'I' do, but what should 'we' do. Our desire is to follow his command to worship together so we would have to come to an agreement. I think the church usually follows the civil government in such matters. In other words,, when Samoa changed the date line the church went along with the one time 8 day week.


On "we" instead of "I": Ok. I prefer, however, to use the first person, because what the rest of the community will do is not under my control, and they might as well choose to do that wich is wrong (Lesbian Bishops, anyone?). That's why I like to ask only what I can do - in that case, as you say, I should talk with other christians to come to an churchly agreement on this issue.
Anyway, I don't know, isn't going along with the 8 day week violating the principle of only 6 days of work + 1 of rest?



> It just seems like you're trying to undo a norm, by postulating and proposing a multitude of exceptional cases. There's a saying in the legal profession: "Hard cases make bad law."


Not really, no. Just trying to find out if the principle of the Sabbath is to work six days then rest one day or just always resting on sunday.



> When there are occasional problems that arise with conforming to a biblical norm, we don't toss out the norm and go back to the drawing board. "Occasional" problems are not "systemic" problems.
> 
> You're hypothesis: that someday there might be significant or widespread abandonment of the social norm of the seven day week, is simply that--a hypothesis. There isn't any reason for me to think it is a likely hypothesis. We can thought-experiment all day, without coming up with any ideas that have real-world applications.


But the problem is not about not conforming to the biblical norm, but if the norm relates to the organization of weeks as weeks (meaning that we work 6 days and rest one because the week is 7 days long) or to the organization of days independently of weeks (wich means, to work 6 days and rest one, no matter how we divide time).

Also, it doesn't need to have any applications. Christianity is not a pragmatic religion.



> When something in our social-context goes against God's Word, so that we are pushed against conformity to God's Word, we must oppose and resist it, saying: "We must obey God, rather than men." It is theoretically possible that there is something wrong with our exegesis, and so problems in the world that push against our stance may force us to ask whether or not we have read Scripture aright. But we typically do not make good changes to our convictions in response to the moment when we are pushed. We need space that will help us determine the right course of action, rather than confusing "being pressed to change" with "needing to change."


But that's not the question.
The questions are:
1.Our calendar has 9 days. Do I rest on the first day of every period of 7 days, working on the other 6, resting again and working again in the last day of the week, continuing in this cycle for the rest of my life, or do I rest solely on the first day of the week?
2. My country calendar has just changed. Do I keep my current work-rest cycle as it is, or do I conform with the new national pattern (as the samoans did)?



> The best thing to do, if suddenly for any conceivable reason one's state or culture of residence monkeyed about with the calendar (why the powers in that place should, in order to deviate from the whole planet, is anyone's guess?!?)


I am not a prophet. I don't know how many years mankind is yet to see.
History is not at all previsible to anyone living in any specific time. Do you think, for example, that anyone living in the 20's would imagine that only a couple of years after their deaths there would be such a thing as "gay marriage" or "right to abort"? Do you think that Christians in Northern Africa, living in the beggining of the 7 century, would believe that in less than one century the majority of their land would be conquered by muslims? Or that the citizens of Jerusalem could foresee their city becoming a Frankish Colony during the Middle Ages? Even in contemporary days, who would believe, in 1980, that the powerful Soviet Union would be dead before the next millennium? No! We know not the future. I have no idea how life will be in 4500 AD.



> As for how other times and places have "worked it out" in days when the order was fluid, etc., that's a matter of historical investigation. Knowing what those answers were may help a future generation, if such counsel is needed for similar problems in later days. But, so far as the question is: "How ought things to be?" enlightenment comes from study of the Word, and not from the vagaries of culture.


Ok. That's what I'm trying to do.


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## jwithnell (Dec 8, 2011)

The 7-day week has moved with the church into all regions of the earth. That's what was normative at creation, that is what is normative now.

The whole western calendar shifted at one point, but the church continued with the practice of Sunday being the Lord's Day, even after the shift to the new calendar.

As to the other hypothetical situations you mentioned, how is that going to affect _your_ obedience to God?


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