# Persecution and Taking Up Arms for the Faith



## PuritanZealot (Feb 13, 2010)

I didn't know where else to post this question, so chucked it in here!?

I have often struggled with the historical way in which our Biblical fathers, the Church fathers and the Reformation fathers (especially the Reformation during the Thirty Years War and War of the Three Kingdoms - England, Scotland, Ireland) viewed physical combat in defence of Christian Faith.

In our current era we allow people and othe religions to mock, defame and denounce our religion to such an extent that Christianity itself has become a mockery of its former self. I see things going on in Churches and things being done to Churches that are heretical in the least and down right blasphemous in the worst.

Our Reformation fathers, specifically the Puritans of Britain come to mind, went to war for less than what goes on now and in our age we very rarely even get people kicking up a fuss, let alone taking up arms. 

I see righteous folks in Africa and India who are willing to fight and die for their religion who are daily assaulted, raped, tortured and murdered by militant Muslims and Hindus and yet we over here who are engaged in a spiritual warfare of an immense magnitude against the Papists and the various religions that assail us on all sides daren't even make an un-P.C. statement.

I'm not saying we should be taking rifles into the streets and lynching Papists or burning down CofE churches for having carvings and stained glass (although...) but I do think a lot of folks are going to have a bit of a harsh talking to when we get to the Gates and Jesus asks us how we tolerated their sinful ways.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 13, 2010)

Do you want to be like the warriors of Christendom, or the warriors of the Coliseum?

And are you concerned about the failures of your own church; or are you looking out at others, and questioning their "Zeal"?

The choice of when we live is not ours to make. We live in the days we have been assigned by Providence. If you ask me which era ours resembles most, I would say the latter before the former. I'm pleased to be the heir of the theology of the former, but it will serve us as well if it is our lot to be fed to the lions rather than to ride on lions as on stallions.

But none of the former ages were "golden". The early church lost much of its apostolic purity within two or three generations of the apostles. But in the midst of persecution, and without the power of arms or princes, the church survived her foes. She did so by the patient persistence, prayers, and simple Christian commitment to personal godliness. A church cleansed of hypocrisy is a potent weapon in Christ's hand.

So, if we have an accurate perception of the state of affairs, we are in a position to speak wisely and unashamedly in defense of the faith. P-C concerns are unbecoming a Christian, regardless of his era. But "kicking up a fuss" sounds like nothing but agitation for a restoration of "Christian place and rights," which lost privileges belong to this world that is passing away.

Who are these "militant" Christians in other parts of the world? I know of many Christians in those territories who suffer meekly for doing good, as becomes their testimony. But I know of very few organized militias or retaliatory mobs (on the few occasions they have erupted) that have the sanction of the churches and pastors in those places.

Perhaps Jesus will have some things to say to western believers, when they get to heaven. But I suspect it will have more to do with their general worldliness and ungoverned earthly passions, than that they failed to be obnoxious and belligerent and vociferous in promotion of truth against error.


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## jambo (Feb 13, 2010)

For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds (2 Cor 10.4)

In Africa, India etc Islamic and Hindu outreach often means conversion by the sword. The church also believes in conversion by the sword but the church's sword is the word of God. I think these are the sort of weapons the church should be using today. Prayer and the preaching of the word whilst depending upon the blessing of our Father, the triumphant work of his Son and the empowering of the Holy Spirit. It was Tertullian who made the statement the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church and in many parts of our world today people are shedding their own blood rather than deny their master. From all the accounts I hear, just as Bruce said, none are taking up arms against their oppressors (The proponents of Liberation Theology may differ but that is a different thing altogether) but with meekness and great Christian fortitude are prepared to suffer for the name. 

I think of the beatitudes -the poor in spirit, the mournful, the meek, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers and the persecuted. These are not the qualities one generally associates with militants. 

We no longer live in the 15th and 16th centuries, those days are thankfully gone. I do not agree with Catholicism or the JWs or Mormons or Hunduism or Islam or any thing other than orthodox biblical Christianity. But I would never dream of denying these groups the freedom to practice their religion. It is up to the Lord to judge them.


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## Bern (Feb 13, 2010)

As much as I appreciate what Christians in the puritan era did for this country, I don't believe the scripture supports any kind of militant action by the church. As fafr as I am aware nowhere in the new testament is it stated that we should defend the truth with physical weapons. I think Stuart summed up how I feel quite well.


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## Peairtach (Feb 13, 2010)

Leaving aside carnal weapons, Christians shouldn't be P.C. or otherwise keep their mouths shut or their pens dry where God's Word demands a response.

The wars of the seventeenth century were about tyrannical imposition by the monarchy on the Parliament, Church and people. As I said in another place, those in the Parliamentary and Covenanting armies had enough support to warrant going to war. There was also enough of a threat to warrant fighting for self-defense in some cases.

We live in different times. The war between secular humanism and true Christianity in Britain and elsewhere in church, state and society must be won by the preaching of the Word of God, including evangelism and Christian philosophy and apologetics. There may be state persecution before better days come again. Or there may be not.


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## VilnaGaon (Feb 15, 2010)

PuritanZealot said:


> I didn't know where else to post this question, so chucked it in here!?
> 
> I have often struggled with the historical way in which our Biblical fathers, the Church fathers and the Reformation fathers (especially the Reformation during the Thirty Years War and War of the Three Kingdoms - England, Scotland, Ireland) viewed physical combat in defence of Christian Faith.
> 
> ...


While not endorsing violence, In my humble opinion we Reformed folk today are a bunch of wusses compared with our Reformed Forefathers. Maybe that is why we are losing and all our enemies are winning.


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