# Inviting Gays to Church?



## ForHisGlory (Nov 25, 2008)

How are we, as followers of Christ, to respond to an unsaved, unbelieving gay couple who attend our church?

I thought about explaining the situation, but I am more curious to hear your responses on how you would react to this situation with _no knowledge _of what is going on.

Is the preaching of the gospel on Sunday mornings for believers only? Or is it open to the unbelieving public?

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts and wisdom.

God bless.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 25, 2008)

They either add to their condemnation or the Word of God will convert them.


----------



## Honor (Nov 25, 2008)

I would treat them like anyone else that is coming to our church that we don't know... I mean what if there is a young couple that is living together but not married... in the eyes of God it's the same couple... KWIM? So I would say welcome them.... love them... and let the preaching of God's Word do it's thing...


----------



## Kevin (Nov 25, 2008)

Preach the gospel.

Treat everyone with respect.

Condem sin.

Love your enemies.

Ask yourself "Are these people my Samaritans?"


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 26, 2008)

A combination of the three posts before mine


----------



## Jon Lake (Nov 26, 2008)

Let them hear the Gospel, spoken in unflinching truth but tempered with love.


----------



## toddpedlar (Nov 26, 2008)

Honor said:


> I would treat them like anyone else that is coming to our church that we don't know... I mean what if there is a young couple that is living together but not married... in the eyes of God it's the same couple... KWIM? So I would say welcome them.... love them... and let the preaching of God's Word do it's thing...



I agree with this as far as it goes... that is, they, just like the 
potential cohabiting heterosexual couple, should eventually feel
very uncomfortable in their sin. Assuming the church preaches
an appropriate seeking after holiness in the lives of the members,
that sin is to be put off, and Christ to be put on, I can't imagine that
they would be able very long to remain there comfortably. God willing,
they would come to their senses and repent of their wickedness, or,
if God so chooses, be hardened in their hearts and leave. The worst
thing that could be done is for them to become settled in the notion
that their lifestyle was welcome and approved.


----------



## he beholds (Nov 26, 2008)

I think the pastor should not be afraid to speak out against homosexuality if the passage warrants. (Which I think could happen. I personally would be afraid to confront strangers about their specific, public sins.)

I cannot imagine a gay couple just sitting in the pews like nothing's up. I'm sure adulterers do come to church, but not _with_ the object of their adultery as a public expression. And promiscuous pre-married couples may also come to church, and sit with each other, but at most legit churches, they would be at least forced to pretend that they aren't sinning together. 

Paul confronted the whole church for allowing sexual immorality to remain. 
1 Corinthians 5:1


> It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.


----------



## Prufrock (Nov 26, 2008)

Perhaps not referring to them as "Sodomites" might be a good first step to building that mutual trust and respect?


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

Sin is a sin. Each of us has done it and will continue to do it until we leave this flesh. You may despise certain sins more than others (homosexuality in this case), but that does not mean that you were any better before your conversion.

When Jesus spoke to the woman caught in audultery He did not refer to her as whore or some other derogatory remark. Why should we? 

The answer to the original question seems easy to me. Preach the Word. Never make an excuse for sin, but do not single them out either. When you single the couple out, you have taken the focus off of the sins of others which allows them to become comfortable in them. We should all hear from the Word and be convicted of our shortcomings and desire God's Holiness to infuse our lives.


----------



## Jon Lake (Nov 26, 2008)

Prufrock said:


> Perhaps not referring to them as "Sodomites" might be a good first step to building that mutual trust and respect?


Amen, I have a gay cousin, my wife and I love him dearly and would love him to be open to truth, this would include words like that, which would put off (to say the least)


----------



## R. Scott Clark (Nov 26, 2008)

Praise God that they are in the congregation where, one trusts, the gospel and the law are preached unequivocally.

All sin, homosexuality included, should be confronted plainly in the pulpit, but if it is through the "due use of ordinary means," and particularly through the "preaching of the holy Gospel," that the Spirit brings sinners to faith, then it is a good thing for sinners to be under the preaching of the Word.

We're Calvinists here, aren't we? We should trust the Spirit to do his sovereign, powerful, singular work in the hearts and minds of all the sinners present. We should be just as upset with the respectable middle class husband who abuses his wife as we are the homosexual and we should be just as gracious to both. 

To the impenitent we preach the law. To the penitent and sorrowful we preach the gospel but not everyone in the congregation is ordained to the ministry! The congregation should be warm and accepting of persons as fellow sinners. We should confess our own sins and thereby set an example for other sinners. We should gently call each other to repentance in the light of the law that has been preached and to faith in the light of the gospel that has been preached. We should pray for ourselves and for fellow sinners to repent and trust the promises.

In all this it is essential, however, that the law and gospel are preached clearly, distinctly, and biblically.


----------



## toddpedlar (Nov 26, 2008)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Sin is a sin. Each of us has done it and will continue to do it until we leave this flesh. You may despise certain sins more than others (homosexuality in this case), but that does not mean that you were any better before your conversion.



Certainly not. 

However, after conversion, sin became real and recognizable. Those who are living a homosexual lifestyle are by and large convinced that their sin is NO sin. Therein lies a great deal of the difference. Same with cohabiting heterosexuals. Oftentimes they are convinced that their practice is fine before God. It's not about being "better" but rather about recognizing that sin is sin, and working throughout one's life to put it away. This is what we are called to do, and those who refuse in regard to one sin pattern or another, whether it be homosexuality, lying, stealing, or sinfully judging, are in a bad way and need to be gently confronted about that sin pattern by those who have care of their souls.


----------



## Hippo (Nov 26, 2008)

One of the many joys of the doctrines of grace are that no matter how hardened we know people are to the Gospel, and how hopeless the task seems to us it is revealed to us that the most receptive "seeker" is no closer to accepting the Gospel than the most rebellious of libertines.

Thank goodness that Grace is irresistible.

It must be said that if sinners (us included) are neither offended nor humbled by the Gospel it is not being preached in all its fullness. In some ways any reaction is good, I would be most worried if people, including gays, showed no reaction in which case the Church has failed. 

10 And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mt 9:10-13


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Nov 26, 2008)

Befriend them, get to know them, appreciate what is good about them, and be honest about your own sinfulness and need for Jesus. We are no better than they are. And you don't need to attack the sexual behavior upfront. I would work more at exposing the cause of their sexual behavior, their idolatry. They are worshipping something else, which allows them to live that way. Identify and confront the idol with the truth of the gospel and the behavior will change in due time.


----------



## Jon Lake (Nov 26, 2008)

I think also, this is a case where Pastoral care is vital! What is said in the pulpit is VERY important, some can become so entangled in certain sins that they need to be led out of this with the help of the church if they are willing to submit and take the steps that are needful.


----------



## Richard King (Nov 26, 2008)

Man there are some great answers here.

Surely you should invite them as you should any sinner 
but love should be the reason and you want them to know that without a doubt.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Sin is a sin. Each of us has done it and will continue to do it until we leave this flesh. You may despise certain sins more than others (homosexuality in this case), but that does not mean that you were any better before your conversion.
> ...




I totally agree. The whole "being better" thing was mainly referenced to the point of calling them Sodomites. I do not walk around and refer to people by their sins vs. their name. 

I feel that calling them Sodomites....

1. Comes off like the Pharisee who thanks God he is not like the publican.

2. It totally goes against what others are saying about rebuke in love.

3. It surely is not being gently confronted like you advocate.


Just my


----------



## Hippo (Nov 26, 2008)

In the "Confessions" by Augustine it is striking that despite a life before conversion involving heresy and sexual excess the sin that he is most appalled by is scrumping pears as a boy. Likewise in Bunyans "Grace abounding to the chief of sinners" it is difficult to objectively see his sins (such as playing "Cat" on Sundays) as particulary severe by comprison to his peers.

It must be horendous to be burdened by sinful sexual desires at the heart of your flesh and to be convicted that such desires are sinful. Thank goodness that God gave marriage to hetrosexuals, it must be awful for those who are unable to channel their desires in such a way.


----------



## BobVigneault (Nov 26, 2008)

Piper and the elders at Bethlehem put a lot of good thought and prayer into how, as a church and ministry, to deal with the sin of homosexuality and those who practice it.

It is not long and it is a good read.

Read it here.
-----Added 11/26/2008 at 11:48:59 EST-----
Marriage is not a gift to heterosexuals alone. Marriage is a gift to mankind and a picture of covenant relationship. 




Hippo said:


> Thank goodness that God gave marriage to hetrosexuals, it must be awful for those who are unable to channel their desires in such a way.


----------



## ForHisGlory (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm really enjoying all your responses thus far. Thank you all for your thoughts.

I guess another follow up question to all this is........is there ever a point in time when they would become unwelcomed? How is the church to handle this?


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

I would not worry about them feeling unwelcome really. 

Preach the Word and let the chips fall where they may.

I think someone earlier correctly mentioned that if you are preaching the word either they will become convicted of their sins and repent or they will harden their hearts, get frustrated, and leave.


----------



## Leslie (Nov 26, 2008)

Perhaps it's good to keep in mind that the biggest sin is not the sodomy itself but rebellion against God, setting oneself up as his or her own god. Of this we are all guilty. Sodomy is just one manifestation of that--more blatant than most--but still just a symptom, not the disease. We are all in the same boat, all sinners. One might say "My rebellion against God manifests as as greed and ambition; my friend's manifests as being hateful to minorities. How does your rebellion against God manifest itself?"


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Perhaps it's good to keep in mind that the biggest sin is not the sodomy itself but rebellion against God, setting oneself up as his or her own god. Of this we are all guilty. Sodomy is just one manifestation of that--more blatant than most--but still just a symptom, not the disease. We are all in the same boat, all sinners. One might say "My rebellion against God manifests as as greed and ambition; my friend's manifests as being hateful to minorities. How does your rebellion against God manifest itself?"


----------



## Theoretical (Nov 26, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Perhaps it's good to keep in mind that the biggest sin is not the sodomy itself but rebellion against God, setting oneself up as his or her own god. Of this we are all guilty. Sodomy is just one manifestation of that--more blatant than most--but still just a symptom, not the disease. We are all in the same boat, all sinners. One might say "My rebellion against God manifests as as greed and ambition; my friend's manifests as being hateful to minorities. How does your rebellion against God manifest itself?"


I like this - and this approach also applies nicely when dealing with immoral heterosexuals.


----------



## toddpedlar (Nov 26, 2008)

ForHisGlory said:


> I'm really enjoying all your responses thus far. Thank you all for your thoughts.
> 
> I guess another follow up question to all this is........is there ever a point in time when they would become unwelcomed? How is the church to handle this?



Well, for one, if they desired to join the church while still living in their sin.


----------



## turmeric (Nov 26, 2008)

I've had a few good discussions with homosexuals. In one I was even able to bring up sin and atonement - by saying that none of us are good enough to go to heaven. The guy wan't dffectually called at the moment but he did acknowlege that "all of us" need to seek forgiveness" without writing me off as a "gay-basher". He actually got pretty self-righteous when I pointed out that I wasn't any better than the infamous drunk who lived in our building. It was fascinating!


----------



## Prufrock (Nov 27, 2008)

I don't know -- I don't understand the need or usefulness to use one kind of language about someone when they're not around (behind their backs) and another when they are. Not calling them sodomites to their face doesn't mean too much to them if they know that's how we refer to them when they're not around. I think it kind of defeats the point.

Thank you very much, however, for your thoughtful response.


----------



## Tim (Nov 27, 2008)

I have deleted my posts that contained the term "sodomite". Apparently, this is not seen as an acceptable term to use anymore, I have no desire to insist on something that is deemed so unacceptable by others. I don't wish to die on this hill. It's just not productive for me or anyone else who is participating in this thread.


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Nov 27, 2008)

Tim said:


> I have deleted my posts that contained the term "sodomite". Apparently, this is not seen as an acceptable term to use anymore, I have no desire to insist on something that is deemed so unacceptable by others. I don't wish to die on this hill. It's just not productive for me or anyone else who is participating in this thread.



Certainly sodomite is a biblical term. Correct? I don't think that there should be any disagreement, therefore, about whether the word can be used, but rather whether it's always the correct or wise term to use in a given situation.


----------



## MOSES (Nov 27, 2008)

The original poster asked us to share our thoughts: Ok.

Godly men who happen to be of the Federal Vision camp would practically end up being burned at the stake, let alone welcome in some of your churches..(i imagine)....BUT....the sodomintes are welcome with open arms (sitting in the pew week to week, together, in common union and fellowship with the people of God)!!!

God required the state to execute the sexually immoral (per God's Law)...and for the church to cast out the sexually immoral (per 1Cor 5).

Things just seem a little bacwards in some of the churches today (eg, Godly men being cast out, and sodomites being brought in).


NOTE: And NO I am not an FV


----------



## turmeric (Nov 27, 2008)

MOSES said:


> The original poster asked us to share our thoughts: Ok.
> 
> Godly men who happen to be of the Federal Vision camp would practically end up being burned at the stake, let alone welcome in some of your churches..(i imagine)....BUT....the sodomintes are welcome with open arms (sitting in the pew week to week, together, in common union and fellowship with the people of God)!!!
> 
> ...


 
My friend, there's nothing godly about preaching a false gospel! Nobody's burning anything but turkeys, today, but FV people are welcome to come to the church I attend, same as gays, but they're not welcome to preach! But then, neither am I...


----------



## fredtgreco (Nov 27, 2008)

MOSES said:


> The original poster asked us to share our thoughts: Ok.
> 
> Godly men who happen to be of the Federal Vision camp would practically end up being burned at the stake, let alone welcome in some of your churches..(i imagine)....BUT....the sodomintes are welcome with open arms (sitting in the pew week to week, together, in common union and fellowship with the people of God)!!!
> 
> ...



That's right. That's why Jesus lavished praise upon the "godly" Pharisees, and advised the churches to execute the Samaritan woman, Mary Magdalene, and Zaccheus.

And NO I am not pro-homosexual.


----------



## MOSES (Nov 27, 2008)

For some reason I just really do not think that Paul would of tolerated "Gay's" *IN* the church.



> *Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church*(ESV heading)
> 5:1 *It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you*, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
> 
> 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have *already* pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
> ...




Now...is there some sort of "secret formula" in the above scripture that would lead us to believe that the sexually immoral should be welcomed IN and AMONG the Chruch...just because they are not believers?
If sodomite "believers" are NOT welcome, according to Paul...Then surely sodomite "un-believers" are NOT welcome.
Think about it. Imagine a Church that kicks out a believer in Jesus Christ who is sexually immoral...YET....welcomes an unbeliever who is grossly more immoral.


These people are in the WORLD not *in* the church. That's why Paul says it would be impossible not to associate with them *in* the world.

We are also to avoid even the appearance of evil. Imagine two gay men walking in and out of your church every week holding hands...That would be a scandalous evil that should be avoided.

Note: The above is not about church membership...It is about those who are welcome IN the church, and the fellowship of the saints during the weekly observance of the Lord's supper...The sexual immoral, in this case Sodomites, are clearly NOT welcome IN the Church.
Question for you who would welcome "gay's" in your church week in and week out: Do you have communion services ever? Do your purge out the leaven, and kick out the evil person, as Paul say's, before you all partake?
(or do you answer "no...rather...we just don't let the "gays" eat the little cracker, or drink the little cup of wine"....)


Note: God saves the wickedest and vileist of sinners, like myself...but he does so by the gospel which is preached IN the world to every creature under heaven. Get off your lazy butt, and go preach the gospel (I AM TALKING TO EVERYONE...this is what we should all be doing)** to the sexually immoral if that is what you want to do...but bringing them into the church is not permitted, as far as I can tell from tota scriptura.
Agan..the OPer was asking for our thoughts..that is mine. I'm open to being corrected if a biblical argument can be given.

**That is motivational language..not an insult.


----------



## fredtgreco (Nov 27, 2008)

I would not have an unrepentant homosexual as a member of a church either. You are conflating categories. There is a difference between neglecting discipline of _members_ (which is what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians) and having the Word preached openly to all. But the church is a place where sinners of all stripes and sorts can come to hear the gospel. We do not shut the doors to any one. After all, it is the preaching of the gospel that is the main means of evangelism - one might even say "especially."

I also do not think Paul would have let FV types in the church - see Galatians and Philippians for a start. "Godly FV" is like "dry water" or "wise fool."


----------



## MOSES (Nov 27, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> We do not shut the doors to any one.





fredtgreco said:


> I do not think Paul would have let FV types in the church


----------



## fredtgreco (Nov 27, 2008)

MOSES said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > We do not shut the doors to any one.
> ...



Let me edit:

I do not think Paul would have let FV types remain as members (or become members) in the church.


----------



## MOSES (Nov 27, 2008)

I'm just throwing this out there for something to think about.
Another interesting thing..."Gay's" are not even allowed on this forum, per the rules....(but they are allowed in the church!)


----------



## fredtgreco (Nov 27, 2008)

MOSES said:


> I'm just throwing this out there for something to think about.
> Another interesting thing..."Gay's" are not even allowed on this forum, per the rules....(but they are allowed in the church!)



Arminians are not allowed on this forum either. Nor are those who persist in not being a member of a church. Nor are those who will not affirm one of the Board's Confessions (WCF or 1689). 

This board is far more restrictive than a church building. It serves a completely different purpose.


----------



## MOSES (Nov 27, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> MOSES said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just throwing this out there for something to think about.
> ...



Thank you...I stand corrected.
It is not "interesting" then as I originally suggested.


----------



## ForHisGlory (Dec 1, 2008)

I think Moses is bringing some interesting points to the discussion.

I am a member of a very large church and struggle with how this should be handled specifically within our own church. I ponder how the early church, when 3000 were added in one day, how people even recognized each other as believers and unbelievers and implemented church discipline. We have thousands who visit our church every Sunday and I certainly cannot distinguish between "member/believer" vs. "non-member/unbeliever" (this is a huge drawback to a large church.....but I love the preaching of God's word here!).

We also have many visitors who visit our church every week......which is a great thing. However, I wonder what they would think of our theology and views on homosexuality (as homosexuality is not _specifically_ preached against every Sunday) should they see a gay couple in our church? We certainly preach sin and the gospel consistently from the pulpit, but if people are seeing the gosepl "lived" in a different manner from what they think are "believers", won't this over time present problems and an unpure church?


----------



## Zenas (Dec 1, 2008)

An important thing to remember is the difference between members and non-members of the Church.

A gay non-member is welcome. A gay member has some explaining to do and may be asked to leave.


----------



## Herald (Dec 1, 2008)

Brent,

How do you know whether a couple is gay? Not all homosexuals carry themselves in an effeminate manner. What about adulterers, rapists or sexual offenders? Do they announce themselves when they visit your church? I can think of other sins that carry with them public stigma if they were known. 

If the Word of God is preached in power and truth from your pulpit, it will have effect on those who listen. The saints will be encouraged and the sinner convicted. Your church should have elders who are responsible for the spiritual welfare of the flock. If they notice threats to the flock then they should intervene. Hopefully your church has a plan for visitors who become regular attenders. They should be visiting these people, and learning more about them. If they learn that an attender is engaged in serious sin, they have a responsibility to share with them what the Word has to say about their sin and call them either to repentance (if they profess Christ) or faith in Christ. 

Our Lord associated with the dregs of society. He did not approve of their lifestyles or condone their sin. That the Christ of God would talk to the woman at the well, and announce to her eternal life, in spite of her adulteries, is a testimony to the redeeming power of the gospel over even the most heinous sins. Our Lord was not concerned with appearances, but with compassion towards the lost. 

Our churches should let them all in to hear the Word of God. That does not mean we should let them all in to join the church and minister in His name. Aberrant lifestyles and unrepentant sin are reasons for a church to deny membership to those seeking it. In most cases, those participating in such sins will not be drawn to a church that preaches the Word of God. The light exposes their sin, even if it is only to themselves. They will either repent or leave. If they don't repent, and make their sin public, then it is the job of your elders to deal with it quickly and decisively.


----------



## AThornquist (Dec 1, 2008)

Moses, are you this passionate about heterosexual non-members in the pews who are contaminated with many sins, including other forms of sexual immorality? Most anti-"Sodomites" aren't. Much of their fire and fury comes down upon homosexuality, while other forms of sexual immorality are just...bad. It's disproportionate. And by the way, it's true that "sodomite" is in the Bible. However, that word holds derogatory connotations these days, and you know that. Do you prefer to call women whores if they sell themselves? What about if someone is struggling with doubting God--do you prefer to call them double-minded? 

And in any case, the passage you quoted refers to those who are sexually immoral and are called BROTHERS, as in those who are members of the local body and are in Christ. If anything, it seems as though the passage you cited contradicts your point. As was said, someone who is gay should be welcomed into the church to hear the Word but NOT ALLOWED to become a member until he or she has repented and become united with Christ. 

Regardless, I hope this post didn't sound overly negative toward you, Moses. It was not my intention to be negative but rather to speak in honesty. What is difficult is the means of communication, really.


----------



## ForHisGlory (Dec 1, 2008)

Herald.....(and many others)....Thanks for your comments brother. I appreciate your wisdom. I am not sure how our elder's are trained to handle situations like these...although, now I'm very curious. I'll be meeting with our pastor tomorrow and will ask him then. 

I guess I wasn't sure how the _body_ should be treating this issue, but I feel pretty comfortable with all the answers that have been given here in this thread. It appears that the consensus is: welcome sinners, preach the word in truth, love our neighbors, humbly acknowledge our own sin and rebellion toward God, boast of our saviour's work in our lives, pray, let God work. 

I feel that this is God honoring exhortation.


----------



## Spinningplates2 (Dec 1, 2008)

MOSES said:


> I'm just throwing this out there for something to think about.
> Another interesting thing..."Gay's" are not even allowed on this forum, per the rules....(but they are allowed in the church!)


They are allowed in Church to hear the word preached. That is not to be compared to being in the body of Christ. The same with the Puritan Board, anyone can read posts on this board but there rules of how to become a member.


----------

