# Suicide



## openairboy (Nov 22, 2004)

I realize this may be a touchy subject, but can a person that commits suicide be saved? The stock response is that we can't do anything to earn our salvation, so we can do anything to lose it. In light of 1 John, were murderers do not have life, how can we make a distinction between a murderer and a person who commits suicide? How is self-murder exempt from this?

One of the things the Lord used to bring me to himself was a friends suicide. He was a professing Christian, and I just assumed he was still saved. I say that to say that it isn't strictly an hypothetical situation for me.

I'm just having trouble reconciling the fact that murders cannot be saved, even our denouncing of Paul Hill, which I believe is justified, but we suddenly become real psychological in our analysis of a suicide, i.e. they were depressed, etc. If a group of Christians crashed a plane into a building then we would denounce the act and say there weren't Christians, etc.

Any help?

Thanks,
openairboy


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## blhowes (Nov 22, 2004)

Keith,
Here's a thread that may be helpful to you:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=473#pid45051
Bob


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 22, 2004)

Yes, suicide is a touchy subject and a painful one, especially for those who have loved ones who have taken their own lives. 

I would offer for your consideration this work by Samuel Miller which addresses your question: http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/Suicides.htm


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 22, 2004)

Murder is sin. Men sin. Suicide may be a secondary cause of a larger problem, i.e. manic depression or schizophrenia. These diseases are secondary causes of the fall. All sin is forgivable. in Christ Jesus. Would it be suicide if I refused to take my heart medicine any longer?


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## pastorway (Nov 22, 2004)

nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus...not even the way we die!

*Romans 8*
38For I am persuaded that neither *death* nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present *nor things to come*, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can separate us from His redeeming love.

Phillip


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## alwaysreforming (Nov 22, 2004)

When I was down in Orlando several weeks ago (at LuvroftheWord's church), the pastor said that he had a friend, a PCA pastor, who committed suicide. He said that this pastor/friend was among THE greatest preachers alive. The minister presiding over the funeral service was Bryan Chappel (author of "Christ-Centered Preaching) and his "topic" was the Sermon on the Mount when Christ referred to "blessed are the poor in spirit." The speaker expounded upon just HOW poor one can be in spirit and still be saved. He said, "How poor? HOW poor? Poor enough to do something that everything in you says is wrong. Poor enough to do something your family, your congregation, your friends KNOW is horrible and wrong. How poor in spirit was this dear man!" He went on to highlight just how faithful and merciful Jesus Christ is and that His mercy and forgiveness extends even to the likes of these!

I was GREATLY moved at such a proclamation of the wonderful faithfulness that is Christ's! It made me look at this issue in a whole new light. To think of just how poor and miserable this man must have been to do something like that and leave his family and congregation behind; its almost unfathomable. But he was a child of God, and God will lose none of His. I'm convinced the blood of Christ can cover such a one as this.


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## openairboy (Nov 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> When I was down in Orlando several weeks ago (at LuvroftheWord's church), the pastor said that he had a friend, a PCA pastor, who committed suicide. He said that this pastor/friend was among THE greatest preachers alive. The minister presiding over the funeral service was Bryan Chappel (author of "Christ-Centered Preaching) and his "topic" was the Sermon on the Mount when Christ referred to "blessed are the poor in spirit." The speaker expounded upon just HOW poor one can be in spirit and still be saved. He said, "How poor? HOW poor? Poor enough to do something that everything in you says is wrong. Poor enough to do something your family, your congregation, your friends KNOW is horrible and wrong. How poor in spirit was this dear man!" He went on to highlight just how faithful and merciful Jesus Christ is and that His mercy and forgiveness extends even to the likes of these!
> 
> I was GREATLY moved at such a proclamation of the wonderful faithfulness that is Christ's! It made me look at this issue in a whole new light. To think of just how poor and miserable this man must have been to do something like that and leave his family and congregation behind; its almost unfathomable. But he was a child of God, and God will lose none of His. I'm convinced the blood of Christ can cover such a one as this.



Honestly, and I realize this is touchy, I don't see an individual that commits suicide as being poor in spirit. I realize we live an the age of psychology, and so even Christians view life through that lense, but I see them as being terribley selfish and the height of pride. My friend's suicide was simply selfish.

I'm just not convinced that a self-murderer is poor in spirit. I don't see it anymore than the Son of Sam, Bundy, Bin Laden, or the Nazis are poor in spirit. Murderers do not have everlasting life abiding in them. I guess perspectives come into play here. 

openairboy


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 22, 2004)

Keith,
Are you concerned in regards to this friends eternal destiny as a result of the suicide?


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 22, 2004)

Who said it was different?


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## openairboy (Nov 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Keith,
> Are you concerned in regards to this friends eternal destiny as a result of the suicide?



That is definitely part of it. There has seemed to be an increase of suicides among people I "know", at least derivitely, and I'm just confused at the way we handle it. In one breath Christians denounce murderers, then they justify in the situation of suicide. Yes, we still "denounce" suicide, but in a much, much different way.

openairboy
p.s. I deleted the one post you responded to Scott, b/c I felt I just responded off the cuff.


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



Paul Hill was excommunicated from his church. This has eternal ramifications. God has placed these leaders over us to watch our souls. Paul was obviously more than just a murderer. However, murder is also a forgivable sin. Jesus leveled the playing field in that regard with his contrast to anger. All of us have essentially murdered. Again, practically, it is a forgivable sin. 

Only God knows your friends where abouts. His witness to you as well as others is an excellent thermometer. If he was Christs before his suicide, he will be Christs afterwards!


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## Scot (Nov 22, 2004)

A few years back, a very prominent OPC minister and theologian commited suicide (I won't mention his name). He was suffering with cancer and was on alot of meds. The meds drove him to suicide. There's no doubt that this man wouldn't have done what he did if he was in his right state of mind. I'm very confidant that he was indeed a child of God and is now with the Lord.


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## fredtgreco (Nov 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> ...



Keith,

Take a look at the comments on this situation by Tim and David Bayly.

http://timbayly.worldmagblog.com/timbayly/archives/cat_suicide.html

Start at the bottom. They are insightful and compassionate pastors, who do not compromise the Word.


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## Craig (Nov 22, 2004)

While suicide is horrible...and can be evidence of one being an unregenerate, it is something true Christians may commit. A friend from church took his own life about a month or so ago. Before that, a friend of mine from college took his own life. 

These were terrible sins...but, I believe one will definitely be in heaven...both showed some fruits, the one from church showed much more fruit. He was a quiet fellow and was incredibly helpful to those in need. He was Reformed to the core. But, he stopped taking his meds and didn't heed his family's urgings to seek further counselling. When we give into despair, suicide can be a result. Just like giving into other sinful habits lead to greater sins. We must be careful lest we also fall into greater sins! 

Also, you need to distinguish between the kind of sin suicide is vs murder...they are different in degree and cause. Not that that changes the sinfulness of it, but it may help you understand why Christians can commit suicide. Remember, Christ's value is infinite...we are not so grand that our sin can outweigh the Almighty.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 22, 2004)

This is how Samuel Miller addresses the question at hand in the article that I referenced earlier:

But perhaps it will be asked, "Can we entertain no hope of the final salvation of one who destroys his own life?" This is a question which it ill becomes a blind and erring mortal to decide. It is possible that a child of God may be so far under the power of mental derangement, as to rush unbidden into the presence of his Father. I believe that instances of this kind have sometimes occurred; and, if so, concerning the salvation of such persons no doubt can be entertained. But it may be questioned, on very solid ground, whether a real Christian, in the exercise of his reason, ever became his own executioner. 

Let those inclined to adopt a more favorable opinion, ponder well that solemn declaration of the Spirit of God, "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15). How small, then, is the proportion of self-murderers for whom we can cherish the least hope beyond the grave! When men leave the world in an act of daring and deliberate rebellion against God, distrusting his providence, agitated by the worst of passions, and trampling upon all the obligations which bind them to their Creator and their fellow men, how can Charity herself avoid considering them as "strangers from the covenants of promise"(Eph. 2:12), and weeping over them as "children of perdition!" (cf. John 17:12). 

This conclusion will be confirmed, if we look into the sacred history, and examine the characters of Saul, Ahithophel, and Judas, the only instances of suicide which the pen of inspiration has recorded. Do we discover in the last moments of these wretched self-destroyers anything to warrant a hope concerning their state after death? Alas! no. We find them throughout manifesting that spirit of pride and enmity to God, and that hateful compound of malice and despair, which characterize the fiend, and which torture the bosoms of the accursed in their dark abodes.


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## openairboy (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Keith,
> 
> Take a look at the comments on this situation by Tim and David Bayly.
> ...



Fred,

Thank you for the link. These are very much my sentiments as well. Petros' death brought back memories of my friend and raised the issue of suicide a fresh in my mind. Due to my geographic location and many of my friendships Petros' suicide is/was regularly talked about, and I've kept my mouth shut due to the nature of the subject, but I have been thoroughly dissatisfied with the lack of Scriptural discussion and the amount of psychological and "clinical" analysis of the situation.

It could be my own psychological projection, but when I heard of this suicide fear came over me and I immediately thought "secret sin". I could only imagine the pressure when you are the leader of a "flagship" type church and held-up high.

Grace Alone,
keith


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## openairboy (Nov 23, 2004)

Andrew,

Thank you for the Samuel Miller link and quote, I will have to spend some time reading it.

Would you (and others) consider Sampson's death suicide?

openairboy


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## fredtgreco (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Keith,

I can understand. I knew Petros personally (but not well, we served in the same Presbytery for a couple of years). I thought that Tim Bayly's comments were very helpful as he pointed out Miller's essay, while at the same time holding out gracious hope in the God of Petros, but pointing out the sinful nature of the act. Ultimately, I don't think it is helpful to be simplistic in our analysis, and that goes for condemnation as well as exoneration. In the end, we do not know much about a man's heart, but we do know about God from His word.

As such, we can honor Petros for his service to the kingdom, and warn others against that sort of despair. There but for the grace of God go we all.


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## andreas (Nov 23, 2004)

***I'm just having trouble reconciling the fact that murders cannot be saved, even our denouncing of Paul Hill, which I believe is justified, but we suddenly become real psychological in our analysis of a suicide***

Forget humanism,psychology and psychiatry.Suicide is a sin,for God will not give you more than you can bear.

1st Corinthians 10:13 

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will NOT suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it". 

We are told clearly that He will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able.Are we going to believe the word of God,or man's word.

"The Lord gives and the Lord takes away".Job 1:21.

He gives life and only He has the right to take it away.Nobody else.
andreas.


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## turmeric (Nov 24, 2004)

As I understand it, the Roman Catholic argument that suicide leads to damnation is because a suicide, by the nature of his act, cannot confess & be absolved because he's dead. I'm sure that unsucessful suicides were "absolved".


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## fredtgreco (Nov 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> As I understand it, the Roman Catholic argument that suicide leads to damnation is because a suicide, by the nature of his act, cannot confess & be absolved because he's dead. I'm sure that unsucessful suicides were "absolved".



That is correct. It is viewed as a "mortal sin" that destroys salvific grace in the person. The person is unable to partake of the sacrament of penance and restore salvific grace, and thus is lost.


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## just_grace (Dec 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Murder is sin. Men sin. Suicide may be a secondary cause of a larger problem, i.e. manic depression or schizophrenia. These diseases are secondary causes of the fall. All sin is forgivable. in Christ Jesus. Would it be suicide if I refused to take my heart medicine any longer?



Its good that someone is on the ball.

Life is very hard. Jesus is Lord or all.

David


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