# Reformed believers and religious experience.



## Jon 316 (Feb 21, 2009)

It is often thought that charismatics and pentecostals have the monopoly on religious experience. Church History and Christian experience would prove this false. 

While reformed believers will not emphasise experience or derive doctrine from it. 

Does anyone have some God glorifying testimonies which could be described as 'religious experience'? 

I am aware that this is Holy ground. My reasons for the question is three fold.

1) Demonstrate/explore how reformed theolgy is not divorced from experience.
2) To be God glorifying
3)Encourage the saints


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## Scott1 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you are looking for.

Primarily, reformed theology says God is "experienced" through the "means of grace" God has established for the Christian to grow. Those are mainly His Word, prayer, taking the sacraments.

We "know" Him as He reveals himself through His Word, as the Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding. We ask that and expect that.

We do not base our knowledge of God on experiences, really. It is actually great sin to worship God in ways other than the ways He has prescribed in His Word (regulative principle). It leads to all sorts of man-centered imagination as a basis for belief that causes so much disorder in charismatic/pentecostal groups.


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## Jon 316 (Feb 21, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> I'm not exactly sure I understand what you are looking for.
> 
> Primarily, reformed theology says God is "experienced" through the "means of grace" God has established for the Christian to grow. Those are mainly His Word, prayer, taking the sacraments.
> 
> ...



I did not have the following quote directly in mind when I started the thread, nor do I wish to get hung up on the term 'Christian mystic' but I was thinking along the lines of what Tozer describes, but again perhaps not as narrow a definition. 

“The word ‘mystic’ as it occurs in the title of this book refers to that personal spiritual experience common to the saints of Bible times and well known to multitudes of persons in the post-biblical era. I refer to the evangelical mystic who has been brought by the gospel into intimate fellowship with the Godhead. His theology is no less and no more than is taught in the Christian Scriptures. He walks the high road of truth where walked of old prophets and apostles, and where down the centuries walked martyrs, reformers, Puritans, evangelists and missionaries of the cross. He differs from the ordinary orthodox Christian only because he experiences his faith down in the depths of his sentient being while the other does not. He exists in a world of spiritual reality. He is quietly, deeply, and sometimes almost ecstatically aware of the Presence God in his own nature and in the world around him. His religious experience is something elemental, as old as time and the creation. It is immediate acquaintance with God by union with the Eternal Son. It is to know that which passes knowledge.” (THE CHRISTIAN BOOK OF MYSTICAL VERSE, Christian Publications, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania). A.W Tozer


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## Rich Koster (Feb 21, 2009)

I will testify of God proving his providence to me as a young believer. 

On a cold day in March, after meeting a friend from Church asked if he could give my wife "a herring bone" . I asked him what is he talking about. He told me that he was working in the jewelry business and would like to give her a necklace. I hesitantly said OK. He then, called her over and gave it to her. She began to shiver because it was windy out. He asked her if she was cold, she said yes. He went back to the car and pulled out a leather coat and asked her if it fit. She put it on and you guessed it.....perfect fit. He told her keep it. He then looked at me and asked me if there was anything I wanted. I said that I could go for some habenero peppers to complete my hot sauce. He went back to the car and handed me a paper bag. It was full of habaneros. Why should I doubt any of His promises after this "against all odds" happening. I'm not basing any doctrine on this but it is sure hard to forget this day. I would classify this as an "experience".


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## LeeJUk (Feb 22, 2009)

Well yeah I've had mystical experiences I'd say 3-4 times and it wasn't through any special kind of praying or an attempt at mysticism or pentecostal/charismatic in fact I am very careful about such things but I was praying and it just kinda happens sometimes it's like something really changes in my body when im praying, a bit like being jolted with power or having the presence of the Lord really thick in the room.

1) Once I just got done watching Leonard ravenhill speaking about revival and I sat for a good 30-40 minutes asking God to fill me and such and I just waited and waited and then its like suddenly it's like something really came upon me and my head and upper body the best way and its pretty much indescribable but it was like lets say getting filled in a very real way.

2) After listening to W P Nicholson preach on surrendering yourself to God to be filled with the double portion of the Spirit and used I asked God to fill me and I believed and I thought, OK...nothing really happened, about 10 seconds later i felt something very weird in my chest and then it was like dunno I could feel my heart beat, my heart beat increased greatly and it was like my upper chest was for lack of a better word was shaking but it wasn't actually physically but that's what it felt like.

3) 2 Days ago during prayer I started praying for revival and I had a similar experience, it didn't last as long but I literally got put on the floor and it just felt like a sudden impulse of electricity just ran through me. Don't know why and I wasn't doing anything different in the prayer than normal.

So yeah I think that as long as we don't go looking for it, we are in the clear but if it happens, it's a joy and is not to be like run down.


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## ww (Feb 22, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> It is often thought that charismatics and pentecostals have the monopoly on religious experience. Church History and Christian experience would prove this false.
> 
> While reformed believers will not emphasise experience or derive doctrine from it.
> 
> ...



I get where you are going here as I've had the same question in the past. I think it comes down to the definition of "experience". As Reformed Christians we don't neccessarily need to have an outward "religious experience" to demonstrate that God is working in our lives as we experience God through Word and Sacrament on a regular basis. The Pentecostal/Charismatic expression of "experience" is a fairly modern innovation and in many instances devoid of Word and Sacrament altogether.


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## Scott1 (Feb 22, 2009)

> Galatians 5
> 
> 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
> 
> ...



It seem you are more describing sanctification. The assurance and joy that comes from an inward testimony of the Spirit's work in your life, in confirmation with His Word. Not really "mystical" as I would understand that term, but very real, and spiritual.

A peace that passes all understanding, knowing that you know that you know, seeing God answer prayer, becoming aware of how God is ordering the circumstances of your life to bring Himself Glory and accomplish His purposes using you... because the Spirit bears witness to the truth through God's revealed Word. 

(We're called to walk by faith in this, looking toward what He has revealed through His Word, not our "experience," "mystical" or otherwise)

The content of our faith is what God has revealed through His Word (not our imaginations, emotions, opinions uninformed by God's revealed will). That's why, in reformed theology, God's Word is so central- it is a chief way in which we worship God and by which we are sanctified by it.


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## Ravens (Feb 23, 2009)

This thread reminded me of a passage I read in Witsius last week. I could very well be wrong, but there seems to be a devaluation of the notion of any kind of extraordinary communications of the Spirit of God to the soul of man in many segments of modern, Reformed Christianity that simply isn't present in older Protestant writers. At least this seems to be the case based on my limited reading.



> XXXIV: But besides, there are some special acts of divine love which God vouchsafes only to his own children. _The Lord, indeed, is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works_, Psal. cxlv. 9. But he reserves a certain peculiar and unparalleled goodness for his elect; of which the Psalmist says, Psal. xxiii. 1. [sic] _Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart_. Hence it is, that, while they are sometimes ravished on high by his Spirit, he surrounds them with the beams of his supercelestial light, gives them a view of his face shining with the brightest love, kisses them with the kisses of his mouth, admits them to the most endearing, mutual intercourse of mystical love with himself, and, while he plentifully sheds abroad his love in their hearts, he gives them to drink of rivers of honey and butter, and that often in the greatest drought of the parched soul, when expecting no such thing. There are many more mysteries in this secret intercourse with our heavenly Father, which believers sometimes see, taste and feel, and which no pen of the learned can represent, as they deserve. And it is not fit, that the spirit of man should be unacquainted with these things since it is admitted as a witness of his state; for, though this is not the lot of all the children of God, nor the case at all times, nor indeed frequently: yet they, whose lot it has at any time been, are certainly children of God.



Volume One, page 465 of the P&R edition.


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## historyb (Feb 23, 2009)

> Does anyone have some God glorifying testimonies which could be described as 'religious experience'?



I have several I could tell. One is where my parents and me were driving along to the Airport and a wind storm came up, it blew out the side window on our van and even though glass was everywhere I did not get cut. We thank God.


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## Christoffer (Feb 23, 2009)

LeeJUk said:


> 2) After listening to W P Nicholson preach on surrendering yourself to God to be filled with the double portion of the Spirit and used I asked God to fill me and I believed and I thought, OK...nothing really happened, about 10 seconds later i felt something very weird in my chest and then it was like dunno I could feel my heart beat, my heart beat increased greatly and it was like my upper chest was for lack of a better word was shaking but it wasn't actually physically but that's what it felt like.



Same here. I've had that experience a couple of times. During prayer (normal prayer, nothing "pentecostal") I started shaking and my heart rate went up, once I actually told the guy sitting next to me that I am going to have a heart attack. He just calmly told me not to worry.

My chest felt "compressed" (in lack of a better word). 

Hasn't happened in quite some time now. The problem, as I see it, with the charismatic movement is that the assumption is that you can have spiritual experience (unbiblical, chaotic ones moreover) on command. 

The Bible teaches us that the Spirit moves whereever He wants to. So if you happen to experience something it is all of Gods grace.

Another problem I see within christianity today (at least where I live) is that the truth of christianity is based upon experience. Very dangerous and possibly crippling for the believer.


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## ReformedChapin (Feb 23, 2009)

Never had one and I am glad. Every single experience that I have heard of seems to either be demonic or someone lying trying to have something that simply isn't there.


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## LeeJUk (Feb 27, 2009)

At the end of the day like I am not a pentecostal/charismatic but I think reformed theology has perhaps gone too far in absolutely outlawing any mystical/spiritual experience. At the end of the day it wasn't imagination nor emotion which provoked such things simply prayer and God's grace, I was not expecting nor had w. p. nicholson described it in his sermon.

As soon as your experiences contradict scripture though or become the basis of your theology, faith and practice then your in trouble. I also would not recommend seeking experiences such as this but if God so decides to act in such away and it is not against scripture then I think it's fine.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 27, 2009)

There is a big difference in the mystical experiences described by AW Tozer and the genuine work of the Spirit in a person's life. This can be confusing and lead young believers astray. 

As I understand it, the experience of sanctification in the reformed thinking has to do with daily walking with God. There is joy and peace and at times a sense of God's presence when as we go about our day. Sometimes, we see God's hand so clearly that it could be described as a "religious experience." 

Christian mysticism is not the same thing. The focus is not on God, but on personal holiness. While God tells us "be ye holy for I am holy", I don't think He is telling us to spend all our time on focusing on being holy, but rather on God Himself. That is why Jesus said that the law and the prophets could be summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor. The mystics get this mixed up and while they say they are not seeking a religious experience, it is the experience they are looking for to verify that they have hit the "holy" mark.


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## SemperEruditio (Feb 27, 2009)

Wife and I prayed to sell our house. We asked that the house go to an older couple on the verge of retiring who would be able to enjoy the house and we asked that the couple be able to pay for the house in cash. Tall order huh?

Well God did exactly that. The gentleman saw the house for sale from riding his Harley around and not from all the advertisements the realty company had. He had just retired and his wife was 6 months from retiring. He was taking care of his mother and his 2 teenage grandchildren. They paid for the house with a cashiers check.


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## Pergamum (Feb 27, 2009)

I have had a check come in the mail for the exact amount of a bill that was due that was over my budget and due that very day.

Nothing mytical though....God's good ol' providence at it again.


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## the particular baptist (Feb 27, 2009)

A few months after the Spirit of God regenerated me something happened that was unmistakeably a supernatural Divine intervention. His Spirit confirmed it in my heart and through His Word. It is the "stone at Bethel" for my family.


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## Mushroom (Feb 27, 2009)

I've seen God's hand care for this unworthy sinner so many times and in so many ways it would be hard to list. Uncountable small ways everyday, to be sure, that I don't even recognize, but often in ways that demonstrate unmistakeably He is intervening on my behalf. Finances (just last week while helping a brother find a Church to go to, an item on ebay sold for a ridiculous amount of money, 120 times what I paid for it, just when I needed it), health, safety, a brother to come along side when needed, protection from my own foolish decisions, etc & etc.

He's carried me through a blizzard in a tiny station wagon while 4wd trucks and Jeeps were wiping out all around me. Steered me around countless near misses while driving an 18 wheeler. So many. Some spectacular, some just in my own heart, when He's opened my understanding to something I had missed in His word before, or that comfort that comes from realizing He is in control and will not forsake me regardless of what things look like. But they are all given to assure us of that very fact, and remind us that He loves us with the tender love of a perfect Father. Even when He chastises us it is an evidence of His love to us.

The most spectacular event where I've seen God intervene on my behalf, and that of some other fishermen, was in Morro Bay, CA. By all logic, we should have been smashed on the rock jetty at the harbor entrance; many much more experienced crews have. What I saw happen that day had an indelible affect on my life, coupled with the fact that the night after two old salts did crash into the same jetty with a RaddenCraft, one of the best-made boats in the industry, killing one, and the other pulled to safety by one of my fellow crew-members who was camping on the beach to watch our dory that had broken away and washed ashore. Someday I'll have to write it all down.

Our Father knows our frailty, he gives us these things to treasure in our hearts to remind us when the storm is raging that He is the Master even of the storm. What shames me is that I still worry and fret, and fail to remember those things as I ought, when I ought. Like right now. This thread has been good for me to see this very morning.

Thank You, Father!


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## SemperEruditio (Feb 27, 2009)

The biggest is how he has opened my mind and heart to the theology of grace. How the scriptures mean so much now. How passages that I would once just gloss over jump out at me. I no longer scramble to read "those" passages but everything in its entirety. How God has reminded and continues to do so that it is all about Him and his word. How if I don't know the Bible then I don't know God.

I say this because I see in others the exact opposite and what Horton describes as Christless Christianity. The bible is important only because the laity think it is but they would rather preach on man-centered issues than on the cross of Christ.

It is unfortunate that for most of us there are almost two "conversion experiences." One is when we "come to Christ" and the other when we are revealed the doctrines of grace. To me the second is an amplification of the first because I am now able to see the thread of Jesus throughout the Old and New Testament.

One more!
I have prayed for a fellow seminarian and he is beginning to quote to me sermons by Edwards and Spurgeon. He's not quite there yet but I am praying and at least every week this young man shows me something God has revealed to him.


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## Johan (Feb 28, 2009)

This is something that I also recently started to wonder about. The question is what is a religious experience? From what has been written by those who responded it seems to me that, as Pergamum pointed out, one can "classify" many of the accounts as experiencing God's providence. John's original statement would suggest that he had something else in mind - especially due to his reference to pentacostals and charismatics. And some who responded seems to have these "other" kind of experiences in mind. 

What worries me about these "other" kind of experiences is that it is very difficult to say that indeed it comes from God. First, and perhaps most important, I don't read in Scripture that the faithful had these sort of experiences. I would say that one really has to be careful about feelings that one has in situations where there is perhaps a lot of emotion. Let me give an example: A couple of years ago we had a meeting on a Saturday morning of the elders in our church. After the meeting one of the elders told me that he could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit during our meeting. I couldn't say that I experienced something special. How should this be interpreted? Was my heart not tuned to the presence of the Holy Spirit? Apart from this elder no other elder made such a remark. 

The question I have asked myself of lately is, if God is giving some people special experiences, why not to me? In a similar fashion some people seems to say so easily that they have been led by the Holy Spirit to do this or to do that. Is there something wrong with me that I don't say it that easily?


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## JBaldwin (Feb 28, 2009)

Johan said:


> This is something that I also recently started to wonder about. The question is what is a religious experience? From what has been written by those who responded it seems to me that, as Pergamum pointed out, one can "classify" many of the accounts as experiencing God's providence. John's original statement would suggest that he had something else in mind - especially due to his reference to pentacostals and charismatics. And some who responded seems to have these "other" kind of experiences in mind.
> 
> What worries me about these "other" kind of experiences is that it is very difficult to say that indeed it comes from God. First, and perhaps most important, I don't read in Scripture that the faithful had these sort of experiences. I would say that one really has to be careful about feelings that one has in situations where there is perhaps a lot of emotion. Let me give an example: A couple of years ago we had a meeting on a Saturday morning of the elders in our church. After the meeting one of the elders told me that he could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit during our meeting. I couldn't say that I experienced something special. How should this be interpreted? Was my heart not tuned to the presence of the Holy Spirit? Apart from this elder no other elder made such a remark.
> 
> The question I have asked myself of lately is, if God is giving some people special experiences, why not to me? In a similar fashion some people seems to say so easily that they have been led by the Holy Spirit to do this or to do that. Is there something wrong with me that I don't say it that easily?



This is exactly the problem with putting experience above truth. Let me be the first to say that I don't down experiences with God. If I wrote down all of the "experiences" I've had with God, both emotional and physical. I could easily write a very long book. 

If a person is a child of God, he will have experiences, because our relationship with God is just that--a relationship. Relationships have experiences, and no two people have the same experiences. God deals with each person on an indvidual basis. If one person "felt the Spirit of God" moving in a meeting, it may be nothing more than God was particularly real to him on that morning. 

Sometimes I sit through a sermon and know that God had words for me, and I sense God's working in my heart. That doesn't mean that my relationship with God is more special or better than that of my brother or sister sitting next to me. It meant that God got my attention, because I needed to hear something. 

Because of the charismatic and pentecostal movements which focus on experience, a lot of reformed folk have almost become stoic in their view of the Christian life. This, I believe, is mistake. The focus is to be on Christ alone and experience and feelings will naturally follow because we are human beings who have feelings and experiences. If we didn't, we would be dead.

In short, if we focus on the feeling rather than the Lord, we are off balance, but it doesn't mean we won't have experiences.


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## Mushroom (Feb 28, 2009)

Johan said:


> This is something that I also recently started to wonder about. The question is what is a religious experience? From what has been written by those who responded it seems to me that, as Pergamum pointed out, one can "classify" many of the accounts as experiencing God's providence. John's original statement would suggest that he had something else in mind - especially due to his reference to pentacostals and charismatics. And some who responded seems to have these "other" kind of experiences in mind.
> 
> What worries me about these "other" kind of experiences is that it is very difficult to say that indeed it comes from God. First, and perhaps most important, I don't read in Scripture that the faithful had these sort of experiences. I would say that one really has to be careful about feelings that one has in situations where there is perhaps a lot of emotion. Let me give an example: A couple of years ago we had a meeting on a Saturday morning of the elders in our church. After the meeting one of the elders told me that he could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit during our meeting. I couldn't say that I experienced something special. How should this be interpreted? Was my heart not tuned to the presence of the Holy Spirit? Apart from this elder no other elder made such a remark.
> 
> The question I have asked myself of lately is, if God is giving some people special experiences, why not to me? In a similar fashion some people seems to say so easily that they have been led by the Holy Spirit to do this or to do that. Is there something wrong with me that I don't say it that easily?


Johan, I very much agree with you in being uncertain about these types of experiences. Having once been a charismatic, and had experiences that I thought were of the sort you're talking about, I am very skeptical of both the ones I had, and those of others. Which may be why when I think of experiences that supernaturally verify for me God's oversight of my life, they are all instances of providence that are for the most part objective rather than subjective in nature. I'm thinking being led by the Holy Spirit is more like doing what scripture teaches in the freedom from bondage to sin our Lord procured for us using our God-given faculties of reason, rather than some ethereal sense of unarticulated direction. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe there's some middle ground between the two, but I'm skeptical by default.

I had a Deacon of my Church tell me last week that he converted because of a vision he saw in the sky eight years ago. I didn't even ask him what it was, I just smiled, nodded, and moved away so he wouldn't see the look of shock on my face. And this is a PCA Church. I just don't know what to do with that.


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## Jon 316 (Feb 28, 2009)

> What worries me about these "other" kind of experiences is that it is very difficult to say that indeed it comes from God.



Hence the need for biblical discernment. Just because something has the possibility of being not of God does not mean we should exclude all possibility. There would be no need for discernment otherwise. The whole point of discernment is that we might discern. Your approach removes the need for discernment. 



> I don't read in Scripture that the faithful had these sort of experiences.



What sort of experience, do you not find in scripture, which you claim the faithful did not have?

If you are claiming that God's people, in scripture did not have experiences, I think you are reading scripture with blinkers on. The O.T and N.T is full of religious experience. So is church History.


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## Jon 316 (Feb 28, 2009)

> I had a Deacon of my Church tell me last week that he converted because of a vision he saw in the sky eight years ago. I didn't even ask him what it was, I just smiled, nodded, and moved away so he wouldn't see the look of shock on my face. And this is a PCA Church. I just don't know what to do with that.



We need to be careful that the spiritual abuses which have taken place under the banner of 'religious experience' do not cause us to shut off to the genuine work of God. 

If the man is showing the true fruits of repentance and regeneration there is no need to doubt his experience. There is plenty of scriptural evidence for this sort of thing.



> Job 33:14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
> though man may not perceive it.
> 
> 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
> ...


*




ACTS 2:17" 'In the last days, God says, 
I will pour out my Spirit on all people. 
Your sons and daughters will prophesy, 
your young men will see visions, 
your old men will dream dreams. 
18Even on my servants, both men and women, 
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, 
and they will prophesy.

Click to expand...

*


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## KMK (Feb 28, 2009)

My youngest son was deathly ill with undiagnosable ailments for the first year and a half of his life. I finally humbled myself enough to call upon the elders at my church. They prayed for him and anointed him with oil and he never went into the hospital again. To this day (he is 8) the doctors are flabbergasted.


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## Jon 316 (Feb 28, 2009)

KMK said:


> My youngest son was deathly ill with undiagnosable ailments for the first year and a half of his life. I finally humbled myself enough to call upon the elders at my church. They prayed for him and anointed him with oil and he never went into the hospital again. To this day (he is 8) the doctors are flabbergasted.



praise God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## charliejunfan (Feb 28, 2009)

A couple times recently when I have been hating myself for sin and worrying about my salvation God by His grace has caused me to realize that I am victorious over sin in Christ, the first time this happened I would say it was my "conversion", this is one of the reasons why I believe that people can be regenerate without having a "conversion experience" although some may have an initial experience, conversion is realized regeneration. Anyways..back to the topic, when I, by God's grace, have realized my position in Christ I suddenly feel warm with excitement and I feel invincible and everything that is worrying me passes away and I solely trusting in Christ. This is the experience I have had several times, I think it is very PRACTICAL yet extraordinary as opposed to MYSTICAL. It is still a wonder of God's fatherly love and grace though  .

I think that when it truly is the Holy Spirit it is an awakening to the glory and majesty of Christ and this in effect is used by the Holy Spirit to start our adrenaline and so on to give us that warm confidence in gace feeling, I think that if it is the Holy Spirit it will start with meditation/thoughts on Christ and follow with a feeling rather than the opposite, I could be wrong though .


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## Webservant (Feb 28, 2009)

An old girlfriend's mother gave me a Bible to read when I was 17 or 18. The first book I read was John, and at the time I did not believe. When I read John, I knew immediately that this wisdom was from One who knew me - and I mean, knew me better than I knew myself. I have never known anything as surely as I knew at that moment that God used His word, right there and then, to touch my heart. It was as real as the chair I am sitting on, and it was the most vivid spiritual experience I have ever had.


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## historyb (Feb 28, 2009)

This is a thought I have had for a while, I wonder if the reformed camp is so intellectually minded that it puts off experiences and shuns them when heard about. Some in this thread seem to embrace God's experience others seem genuinely frighten as if having any experience is bad. That's quite sad to me


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## Johan (Mar 1, 2009)

John,

I think we have to define what we mean by religious experiences. It seems as if Brad perfectly well understood what I meant with "other types of experiences". The term "religious experiences" can in fact be interpreted very broadly. 

You quoted from Job 33 and and Acts 2. Is this what you mean by religious experiences? Do you interpret these as implying ongoing revelation outside Scripture? 

The experiences that Charliejunfan and Webservant tell us about is in MHO in line with what we confess in the Canons of Dordt and I think I can say that I also had that sort of experience. Here are the relevant articles from the Canons of Dordt:



> Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion
> 
> Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.
> 
> ...



You will see that article 13 above indeed says that the believers EXPERIENCE that by this grace of God they do believe with the heart and love their Saviour. I am sure that by "experience" the confession does not mean visions and these sort of experiences (what Brad refered to) but rather that the believers experience in their daily lives how indeed they have been regenerated and hunger for a life in Jesus Christ that pleases God. And indeed, there can be emotion involved in this. I agree completely wit JBaldwin on this.

I think it is rather important in these days that we as reformed christians clearly define and understand what we mean with "religious experiences". There are many groups and movements that emphasize religious experiences. The Emergent Church is one such movement. But is what we mean with "religious experience" the same as what they understand of it?


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## Michael Doyle (Mar 1, 2009)

My experiences are pretty phenomenal. Especially as I am a cessationist. My life, pre salvation was an utter mess. Huge Irish catholic family, I was the youngest of 19. We had no church background, only attended on weddings and funerals. Long story short, I grew up and became a heavy alcoholic and drug addict. Loved "shooting up" to get high. I had nothing and lived on the streets, or whoever would take me in for a night. In 1991 I got a job at a roofing company with one of my partying buddies. 

Long story short, I worked there 8+ years at the time, 1999, and my boss Frank witnessed to me faithfully all the while. In `99 my dad fell ill with collapsed lungs and died on the operating table but the staff resuscitated him. He called in the family upon his awakening with the exception of myself. He told my family of the experience he had had while "dead." He explained that he had spoken to Jesus and that Jesus commanded him to live and minister to me. (This is all very scaled down for the sake of readability) He instructed them not to say anything to me about it. My Dad proceeded to live another year. In that time I had decided to start my own roofing company. I had cleaned up from drug use in 1995 and had been a miserable sober person for 5 years to this point. I married my wife in 1996 and I was in a band of sober alcoholic drug addicts who enjoyed the adulterous opportunities band life afforded us. My marriage was failed at this point and I fell off a roof and broke my wrist, disabling me and now to the point of losing everything, marriage included. I managed to humbly (the Lord) drag myself into my old boss, Frank. Long story short, Frank created a job for a one armed roofer and helped me to close all my unfinished business from my failed company. I was very grateful. In February of 2000, my wife had had enough of me but found herself called to church through what she claims to be an audible voice, which said repeatedly, "go to church." She went the morning while I slept and got saved simply sitting in the pews talking to no one but just crying out in repentance.

In March my dad came up from Indiana to visit with my brother and I. We had probably the most warm and gentle time with my dad that was ever had. We all stayed the night at my brothers, enjoying "pops" and the next morning took him out for breakfast. We hugged and departed from one another from the restaurant, never to see him again. He went home and, one morning while eating breakfast, had a brain anyurism and died peacably at the breakfast table alone. At his funeral, as I stepped up to speak after listening to many family members, I wept liked never before, but with joy and gratitude and knew I had been saved. At that very moment, I felt the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Praise the Lord! As if that were not enough, saving a horrible wretch like me, months later upon seeing a doctor, I was told that I had been healed from Hepatitis C, which I had from sharing needles. I had gotten pretty sick from this disease and was told I would have it forever and would most likely die from its complications. Gone!!!

There is so many more supernatural aspects to this story that I think this page could not contain them but the Lord confirmed His Almighty power to me and saved me.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 1, 2009)

> I think we have to define what we mean by religious experiences...The term "religious experiences" can in fact be interpreted very broadly.



Agreed.



> You quoted from Job 33 and and Acts 2. Is this what you mean by religious experiences?



I would not limit the term 'religious experience' to these two texts and the variety of experience found within, however there is no denying that these texts are dealing with aspects of religious experience. 



> Do you interpret these as implying ongoing revelation outside Scripture?



What do you mean by this question?



> You will see that article 13 above indeed says that the believers EXPERIENCE that by this grace of God they do believe with the heart and love their Saviour. I am sure that by "experience" the confession does not mean visions and these sort of experiences (what Brad refered to) but rather that the believers experience in their daily lives how indeed they have been regenerated and hunger for a life in Jesus Christ that pleases God.



I think there is no doubt that the work of the Spirit in drawing a sinner, convicting them of sin, regenerating them and filling them with His presence, can all be classified as biblical experience. 


I would be less willing to make the bold claim that God does not use visions and such like in this process. This I would argue from scripture, church history and personal experience. 




> I think it is rather important in these days that we as reformed christians clearly define and understand what we mean with "religious experiences".



I agree. We need to rescue authentic religious experience from what it has come to mean in certain charismatic circles. People can have all sorts of bizzare experiences yet have very little knowledge or experience of saving faith. This is concerning. However, we must be careful, in our redefining, that we do not draw the boundaries tighter than the Lord does in His word. It would be absurd if the very people who claimed to uphold God's sovereignty were to undermine that sovereignty through fear or 'false limitations'. Do we really think the Soveriegn Lord of all the earth and the risen Christ do not manifest sovereignty and power in their dealings with the sons of men?


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## Johan (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> I would be less willing to make the bold claim that God does not use visions and such like in this process. This I would argue from scripture, church history and personal experience.



To in any way continue with this discussion I think it is necessary that you explain in more detail exactly then what you mean by "religious experience". You have been a bit vague up to now.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

> To in any way continue with this discussion I think it is necessary that you explain in more detail exactly then what you mean by "religious experience". You have been a bit vague up to now.



Any definition I offer may be considered too broad for some and too narrow for others. I'm not sure I have been a 'bit vague'. People have posted examples of what they would consider to be a religious experience. I think most of the examples given fit within that category. There have been some people on the thread who obviously have a very narrow and negative definition of what religious experience means. My response to this is that they are defining it too narrowly.


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## Johan (Mar 2, 2009)

John,

Accepted. Let's leave it there.


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