# Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not?



## CDM

Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not? 

Why or why not?


***I am not quite sure why many struggle in answering this question, but, I hope to gain an understanding why this is so - I am not content with my speculations. So, for those who refrain from answering, please, at least explain why you won’t.***


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## Archlute

When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.


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## Blueridge Believer

It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.


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## Reformed Covenanter

If the mass be not idolatry, then the second commandment has never been broken.


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## CDM

Blueridge Baptist said:


> It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.



 You sound like Mr. Knox, brother - The Mass is Idolatry (1550) by John Knox


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## A5pointer

Archlute said:


> When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.



I am not getting it, do you mind explaining what you see? I think a definition of biblical idolatry would be helpful for the discussion. Thank you.


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## BobVigneault

*Ready - Fire - Aim!*

Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?

Would this one work:

Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)


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## Reformed Covenanter

BobVigneault said:


> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)



Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## CDM

A5pointer said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not getting it, do you mind explaining what you see? I think a definition of biblical idolatry would be helpful for the discussion. Thank you.
Click to expand...


Good suggestions. We'll start with the aforemetioned John Knox's most basic syllogism: 



> The Mass is Idolatry. All worshipping, honouring, or service invented by the brain of man in the religion of God, without his own express commandment, is idolatry. The Mass is invented by the brain of man, without any commandment of God; therefore it is idolatry.


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## Blueridge Believer

mangum said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like Mr. Knox, brother - The Mass is Idolatry (1550) by John Knox
Click to expand...



That Knox dude was a troublemaker.


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## CDM

BobVigneault said:


> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)



Brother, pick any (generally held) definition you wish. The self-proclaimed *Vicar of God* meets them all including the one you just posited.


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## A5pointer

Daniel Ritchie said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...


The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Blueridge Baptist said:


> mangum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like Mr. Knox, brother - The Mass is Idolatry (1550) by John Knox
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That Knox dude was a troublemaker.
Click to expand...


It was not Knox who troubled Israel (Scotland ) but Mary Queen of Scots.


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## BobVigneault

I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?

Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?

My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.


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## Reformed Covenanter

A5pointer said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
Click to expand...


If the wafer is actually the Lord Jesus Christ then they should worship it. Moreover, let us not forget that the Romanists also worship Mary and the Saints, and are thus idolaters on that basis alone.


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## A5pointer

mangum said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, pick any (generally held) definition you wish. The self-proclaimed *Vicar of God* meets them all including the one you just posited.
Click to expand...


You are kind of off topic here. We are not shooting apart all the bad theology in RC just defining if the mass is worship of idols.


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## Reformed Covenanter

BobVigneault said:


> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.



That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.


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## Blueridge Believer

(the following is from Spurgeon)

Where, then, did the mass come from, and of what
avail is it? The Lord's Supper was intended to be
the remembrancer to us of our Lord's sufferings;
instead of which it has been prostituted by the
Church of Rome into the blasphemy of a pretended
continual offering up of the body of the Lord Jesus
Christ, a continual sacrifice. According to the Romish
doctrine the offering upon Calvary is not enough-
the atonement for sin is not finished- it has to be
performed every day, and many times a day, in the
Catholic churches, by certain appointed persons,
so that that sacrifice is always being offered.
Oh! brethren, the mass is a mass of abominations,
a mass of hell's own concocting, a crying insult
against the Lord of glory. It is not to be spoken
of in any terms but those of horror and detestation.
Whenever I think of another sacrifice for sin being
offered, by whoever it may be presented, I can
only regard it as an infamous insult to the
perfection of the Savior's work.
Popery swarms with worshipers of the god
whom the baker bakes in the oven, and whom
they bite with their teeth. 

What of the Catholic sacrament of penance?
Is not penance in its essence an offering for sin?
I do not care who it is that prescribes the penance,
nor what it is, whether it is licking the pavement
with your tongues, or wearing a hair-shirt, or laying
on the whip- if it be supposed that by the mortification
of the flesh, men can take away sin, the Scripture
is like a two-edged sword to pierce the inmost heart
of such teaching. Take off your hair-shirt, poor fool!
Wash the stones with a dish-cloth, and keep your
tongue clean. There is no need for these fooleries!
Christ has completed the atonement, you need not
suffer thus. You need not, like Luther, go up and down
the stone staircase on your knees, and think that
your poor sore knees will find favor with God.
Christ has suffered, God exacts no more. Do not try to
supplement his gold with your dross. Do not try to add
to his matchless robes, the rags of your poor penance. 

How these verses shut the gates of purgatory!
It is held that there are some who die who are believers,
but who are not quite purified from sin, and in an after
state they must undergo a purgatorial quarantine to be
purged by fire, so that they may become quite complete.
Beloved, when the thief died on the cross he had but
just believed, and had never done a single good work,
but where did he go to? Well, he ought to have gone to
purgatory by rights, if ever anybody did, but instead of
that the Savior said to him, "Today you shall be with
me in Paradise." Why? Because the ground of the man's
admission into Paradise was perfect. The grounds of
his admission there was Christ's work, and that is how
you and I will get into heaven, because Christ's work
is finished. The thief did not go down to purgatory,
nor, blessed be his name, neither shall you nor I if
we trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all..."
Romans 6:10
"He sacrificed for their sins once for all when
he offered himself." Hebrews 7:27
"He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his
own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."
Hebrews 9:12
"But now he has appeared once for all at the end
of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice
of himself." Hebrews 9:26
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the
sins of many people...." Hebrews 9:28
"we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10


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## CDM

A5pointer said:


> mangum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, pick any (generally held) definition you wish. The self-proclaimed *Vicar of God* meets them all including the one you just posited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are kind of off topic here. We are not shooting apart all the bad theology in RC just defining if the mass is worship of idols.
Click to expand...


 I meant pick any definition of IDOALTRY that you wish. All of the generally held definitions of idolatry the RCC meets....that was my point.


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## BobVigneault

Hence, though the other thread is closed, I would attend an RC funeral in order to be the means of leading the sheep out.

If we just stand outside screaming "THE POPE IS ANTI-Christ! YOUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF SATAN! YOU ARE IDOLATERS! I'M A ONE NOTE MELODY!", then we will have no effect on the people inside. We are turning our backs on those in need.



Daniel Ritchie said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
Click to expand...


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## Blueridge Believer

No one could possibly sum it up better that Luther:


The Mass! The Pope! The Roman Church!

The following gems were written by Martin Luther.
Prior to being saved by the grace of God, Luther
was a Roman Catholic priest. 

"The Mass is the greatest blasphemy
of God, and the highest idolatry upon
the earth, an abomination the like of
which has never been in Christendom." 

"The Kingdom of Christ is a kingdom
of mercy, grace, and goodness. The
kingdom of the Pope is a kingdom
of lies and damnation!" 

"The Roman Church has become
the most licentious den of thieves,
the most shameless of all brothels,
the kingdom of sin, death, and hell.
It is so bad that even Antichrist
himself, if he should come, could
think of nothing to add to its wickedness."


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## BobVigneault

Luther said that because he hadn't seen Joel Osteen and 21st century protestantism.


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## greenbaggins

One could biblically define worship as anything or anyone to which/whom we bow down in service. The RCC's bow down to the wafer as to the body of Christ. Therefore they worship the wafer. Since the wafer is not God, it is idolatry. Heidelberg Catechism 80 (last part of the answer): "Thus the Mass is basically nothing but a denial of the one sacrifice and suffering of Jesus Christ and a condemnable idolatry."


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## BobVigneault

The Mass is clearly idolatrous but we protest too loudly as if the RCC has the corner on idolatry. We should grieve and protest mainstream protestantism for it's idolatrous ways. The RCC is not the only church to fall into great error. We've had this very same discussion regarding arminian churches.


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## greenbaggins

Bruce voted no.


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## Blueridge Believer

BobVigneault said:


> Luther said that because he hadn't seen Joel Osteen and 21st century protestantism.


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## CDM

BobVigneault said:


> Hence, though the other thread is closed, I would attend an RC funeral in order to be the means of leading the sheep out.
> 
> If we just stand outside screaming "THE POPE IS ANTI-Christ! YOUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF SATAN! YOU ARE IDOLATERS! I'M A ONE NOTE MELODY!", then we will have no effect on the people inside. We are turning our backs on those in need.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Brother, why can't you simply wait outside to help those who were just inside claiming to resacrifice our Lord and eat his flesh, blood, and divinity?

Would you also follow a prostitute into the hotel room with her "Jon" to *help* or would you wait outside for her then help her?


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## A5pointer

joshua said:


> By the way, who voted that it wasn't?




Yikes it was me I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshipping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?


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## holyfool33

Yes it is ioldatry because you are saying Jesus is now a waifer and you are worshipping a wafer as the prosonification of God that is *IDOLOATRY*


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## BobVigneault

You could ask Haggai that question. If the prostitute was my sister or daughter I would not wait outside.




mangum said:


> Would you also follow a prostitute into the hotel room with her "Jon" to *help* or would you wait outside for her then help her?


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## JBaldwin

The mass is idolatry. And since the other thread is closed, I would like to clarify my feelings about the difference between attending a catholic funeral or wedding vs. attending a mass for the purpose of worship. When attending a RCC mass, there can be no other reason for being there other than worship. At a funeral or wedding where the mass is a part of the service, it is clear to all (including the priest) that many are there who are not part of catholic church. Many family members, relatives, friends, neighbors and co-workers attend these type gatherings to show their love for the family, not to worship, and the RCC recognizes that.


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## BobVigneault

> Jonah 4:11 And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”



This is my argument. These sheep are dumber than a bag full of Ninevite hammers!

LiveLeak.com - Faithful Flock To Garage Door.


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## CDM

BobVigneault said:


> The Mass is clearly idolatrous but we protest too loudly as if the RCC has the corner on idolatry. We should grieve and protest mainstream protestantism for it's idolatrous ways. The RCC is not the only church to fall into great error. We've had this very same discussion regarding arminian churches.



I agree there is other idolatry in "protestant" circles. However, the pope in rome and his system are at the zennith.


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## A5pointer

greenbaggins said:


> Bruce voted no.




Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal


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## greenbaggins

A5pointer said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce voted no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal
Click to expand...


Mad at you?  Whatever would give you that impression?


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## CDM

A5pointer said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, who voted that it wasn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes it was me I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshipping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?
Click to expand...


Brother, what is idolatry as you understand it? It sounds like you mean that if one doesn't have a grasp of biblical theology they can't be held accountable for idolatry?


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## Archlute

A5pointer said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not getting it, do you mind explaining what you see? I think a definition of biblical idolatry would be helpful for the discussion. Thank you.
Click to expand...



If you are asking a serious question, and really desire to put in some time to learn, I will give you these materials to help you begin a study on the idolatry of the mass in particular:

Calvin's Institutes - Book 4, chapter 17, sections 13-37

Turretin's Institutes - Volume 3, topic 19, questions 29-30


And for a work dealing with post-Tridentine developments in the RCC regarding the supper:

G. C. Berkouwer - Studies in Dogmatics, _The Sacraments_, chapter 13 "The Lord's Supper: a sacrifice?"


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## JM

I voted yes, but have to admit there is still a part of me that misses the Divine Liturgy and every Great Fast the urge to attend orthros is strong.


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## greenbaggins

I do agree with Joshua. Ignorance of the law and intention is no excuse. The second commandment does not forbid intentional idolatry only. God calls on all men everywhere to repent of their idolatries (Acts 17). This is the universal position of the Reformed theologians: the Mass is a condemnable idolatry. Furthermore, in a sense the question of the people in the pew is irrelevant to the discussion: the Mass is idolatry because of what the RCC says about it, and because of how they practice it. It is idolatry because of the priests who administer it. Or do you think, Bruce, that the priests also are exempt from intending idolatry and of ignorance?


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## A5pointer

greenbaggins said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce voted no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mad at you?  Whatever would give you that impression?
Click to expand...


Brother you gotta know I am kidding. That smiley face of yours looks like it could never get mad


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## greenbaggins

A5pointer said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad at you?  Whatever would give you that impression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brother you gotta know I am kidding. That smiley face of yours looks like it could never get mad
Click to expand...


I was fully aware of the fact that you were kidding. I was kidding, too. Hence the wink at the end of my post.


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## A5pointer

mangum said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, who voted that it wasn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes it was me I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshipping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brother, what is idolatry as you understand it? It sounds like you mean that if one doesn't have a grasp of biblical theology they can't be held accountable for idolatry?
Click to expand...


Man, am I feeling lumped up here. You are misunderstanding me. I am suggesting a definition of idolotry that is the intentional worship of anything/being/diety that is not YHWH/Christ. I do think that by nature the practice of idolotry does have to be intentional. Worship by definition requires thinking/epistimology. This makes me think of this 

17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this." 

This may have bearing on the mass issue for the true believer or any of us that would intentionally wander in even if we do conceed it to be an idolotrous event. Guys thanks for the comments. I need my head examined for wandering into the Roman corner. I hope you all do understand that I share your distress over Roman theology.


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## A5pointer

Guys, I have to run thanks again. The more I think of the King's passage, I am thinking(no pun inteded) that idolatry and worship are by definition thinking mens games. Just food or thought. I will consider all that has been said.


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## Blueridge Believer

I've never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed and have had little experience with the RCC, but they do claim to eat Jesus literally and drink His literal blood and have killed many people over it. I do not think I could ever come up with language hard or strong enough to condemn this doctrine of devils.


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## pilgrim3970

BobVigneault said:


> Luther said that because he hadn't seen Joel Osteen and 21st century protestantism.




Amen Brother.


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## ADKing

Please note what the Romanists _themselves_ claim to be doing in the mass. 

_1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."208 

_

From the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". As you can see, they claim to be adoring and venerating the elements.


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## Amazing Grace

Daniel Ritchie said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...


I do not think Daniel should be the barometer of this thread. As a member of the Orange order he has obviously drank the "orange juice'' and is still ticked off with vehement hatred towards England!! I am voting for England to make another "pale" around dublin once again!!!!


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## Wannabee

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

eucharist.
The name given to the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar in its twofold aspect of sacrament and Sacrifice of Mass, and in which Jesus Christ is truly present under the bread and wine. 


Sacrifice of the Mass

The simple fact that numerous heretics, such as Wyclif and Luther, repudiated the Mass as "idolatry", while retaining the Sacrament of the true Body and Blood of Christ, proves that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is something essentially different from the Sacrifice of the Mass. In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation [NOTE: Propitiation is not used]. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good.


The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament


The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

If, then, natural, literal interpretation were false, the Scriptural record alone would have to be considered as the cause of a pernicious error in faith and of the grievous crime of rendering Divine homage to bread (artolatria) — a supposition little in harmony with the character of the four Sacred Writers or with the inspiration of the Sacred Text. Moreover, we must not omit the important circumstance, that one of the four narrators has interpreted his own account literally. This is St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:27 sq.), who, in the most vigorous language, brands the unworthy recipient as "guilty of body and of the blood of the Lord". There can be no question of a grievous offense against Christ Himself unless we suppose that the true Body and the true Blood of Christ are really present in the Eucharist...
In order to forestall at the very outset, the unworthy notion, that in the Eucharist we receive merely the Body and merely the Blood of Christ but not Christ in His entirety, the Council of Trent defined the Real Presence to be such as to include with Christ's Body and His Soul and Divinity as well. A strictly logical conclusion from the words of promise: "he that eateth me the same also shall live by me", this Totality of Presence was also the constant property of tradition, which characterized the partaking of separated parts of the Savior as a sarcophagy (flesh-eating) altogether derogatory to God. Although the separation of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Logos, is, absolutely speaking, within the almighty power of God, yet then actual inseparability is firmly established by the dogma of the indissolubility of the hypostatic union of Christ's Divinity and Humanity. In case the Apostles had celebrated the Lord's Supper during the triduum mortis (the time during which Christ's Body was in the tomb), when a real separation took place between the constitutive elements of Christ, there would have been really present in the Sacred Host only, the bloodless, inanimate Body of Christ as it lay in tomb, and in the Chalice only the Blood separated from His Body and absorbed by the earth as it was shed, both the Body and the Blood, however, hypostatically united to His Divinity, while His Soul, which sojourned in Limbo, would have remained entirely excluded from the Eucharistic presence...
There is, furthermore, a fourth kind of multilocation, which, however, has not been realized in the Eucharist, but would be, if Christ's Body were present in its natural mode of existence both in heaven and on earth. Such a miracle might be assumed to have occurred in the conversion of St. Paul before the gates of Damascus, when Christ in person said.to him: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" So too the bilocation of saints, sometimes read of in the pages of hagiography, as, e.g., in the case of St. Alphonsus Liguori, cannot be arbitrarily cast aside as untrustworthy.


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## Reformed Covenanter

BobVigneault said:


> Hence, though the other thread is closed, I would attend an RC funeral in order to be the means of leading the sheep out.
> 
> If we just stand outside screaming "THE POPE IS ANTI-Christ! YOUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF SATAN! YOU ARE IDOLATERS! I'M A ONE NOTE MELODY!", then we will have no effect on the people inside. We are turning our backs on those in need.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?


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## shackleton

I believe the official RCC position would be that they are "aids to faith." They give the worshiper something to focus his attention on when praying or worshipping. 

I had a Catholic once tell me that it is similar to Buddhism or Hinduism in that they have thousand of Gods to pray to and the RCC has thousands of saints to pray to. This makes for an easy change over. If you know any Catholics you immediately see that they have a saint to pray to for anything that is happening in their lives, including selling ones house. Simply plant a statue of St. Joseph (Jesus' step dad) in your front yard and you will sell your house. 

There is a lot wrong with the RCC but if you listen to their theology it is not that different from your average arminian. I think there are Catholics who are saved but I don't think anyone could ever get saved according to what the chruch teaches.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Idolatry....


> (1Co 5:11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.



This passage is about not keeping company with someone who is considered to be a brother. Roman Catholics are not my brothers in Christ. Most of them dont' understand the Mass. I tried explaining to someone not so long ago, that everytime the Priest does a mass he is reoffering and resacrificing Christ again in his mind. They actually believe that Jesus humbles himself every Mass and becomes the bread and wine for the people so they can eat his flesh and drink his blood and be assured of forgiveness of sin by partaking of the sacrifice. 

My Bible says that Christ was sacrificed once for all. 

The mass is idolatry and a false demonic way to deceive people away from the only way to be right from God. 






Here is the Apostle Pauls definition of idolatry.


> (Col 3:5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
> 
> (Col 3:6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:




Now lets play nice and be careful how we address each other on this thread and every thread. Be patient and loving. Not everyone has the same knowledge and harshness will turn people away. Harshness says I am correct and you are an idiot if you don't agree with me. 

That is not how Christ would have us teach and love people. 



> (2Ti 2:24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
> 
> (2Ti 2:25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
> 
> (2Ti 2:26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not think Daniel should be the barometer of this thread. As a member of the Orange order he has obviously drank the "orange juice'' and is still ticked off with vehement hatred towards England!! I am voting for England to make another "pale" around dublin once again!!!!
Click to expand...


 I left the Orange Order 5 years ago. But I am still an Ulster Protestant, and that means one thing: No Pope Here!!!


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## pilgrim3970

Some random thoughts:

To me the bigger problem with the Mass is belief that during the Mass Christ is offered up anew.



> *Priest*: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
> may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
> 
> *All*: May the Lord accept the _sacrifice at your hands_,
> for the praise and glory of his name,
> for our good, and the good of all his Church.



This , to me, is *MUCH* more problematic (and just completley unbiblical) than the insistance the accidents change. One may debate about what Christ meant by "This is my body..." but there is just no debate to be had about the words of scripture which say:



> but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, (Heb. 10:12)



That's not to say that the belief that the elements physically become the body and blood of Christ isn't also problem. Because it has led to the superstitious practice of the "veneration of the blessed scarament" in which the wafer is placed in a chapel for the faithful to adore and prayer before.

To Roman Catholics, they are not "worshipping the bread" but worshipping Christ.

Their adoration of the scarament is much like the orthodox and their veneration of icons. Both view this like (and this is an example given to me by an aquaitence who is Eastern Orthodox) the way one might kiss or look with affection on a picture of a loved one. 

Ok, I feel like I am rambling but hope some of this is useful information.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?




I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places. 

I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also. 

Be careful how you guys want to judge others. 

P.S. I was wearing my moderator hat in some of this.


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## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.
> 
> I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.
> 
> Be careful how you guys want to judge others.
Click to expand...


The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.

Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.
> 
> I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.
> 
> Be careful how you guys want to judge others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.
> 
> Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.
Click to expand...


Just because you don't see how attending an RC service is anything but participating in it, doesn't mean you have to understand it from my point of view or anyone elses. 

You do have to respect others positions on this board as brothers in Christ. 

I respect your choices Daniel. You don't have to agree with mine. But you do have to understand that I live before the Lord as you do. I will bare the responsibility to him as you will for your understanding. Maybe, this is not as clear cut as you understand it to be. Be respectful of others. Thanks


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## Presbyterian Deacon

Idolatry. Yes, certainly.

Venerating wafers and praying to Mary is certainly not the worship of the one True God! In my humble opinion


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## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.
> 
> I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.
> 
> Be careful how you guys want to judge others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.
> 
> Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just because you don't see how attending an RC service is anything but participating in it, doesn't mean you have to understand it from my point of view or anyone elses.
> 
> You do have to respect others positions on this board as brothers in Christ.
> 
> I respect your choices Daniel. You don't have to agree with mine. But you do have to understand that I live before the Lord as you do. I will bare the responsibility to him as you will for your understanding. Maybe, this is not as clear cut as you understand it to be. Be respectful of others. Thanks
Click to expand...


As an interesting aside, JG Machen would have attended RC services but would not have partook of the Mass. The problem is that it does not in my opinion bear good testimony to Christ to attend a service of worship which is explicitly against His glory; the Lord has told us to "flee from idolatry". Having said that, I do respect the _motives_ of others on the board and don't think that they are _intentionally_ trying to harm people.


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## BertMulder

Although God will certainly judge the deceivers, and they will receive the greater condemnation.


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## A5pointer

Hey, I am back. This thread if read carefully wanders off target. Much has been rightly said about the errors of theology in the mass. It is universally agreed here that the mass in it's theology is wrong, badly wrong, dishonoring to Christ and his work and even despicable. But the question begs does all this necessarily equal "idol worship" intrinsically? I have been painted into a corner as if I am defending RC practice and theology. I am merely suggesting that to equate the mass to idol worship is a stretch. As the lone dissenter I thank those who have shown concern about charitable conversation but I am fine with it. I respect the opinions of those expressed and the fervency that may come through as harsh. If I may refer to the question of whether the mass should be avoided by us. If the mass in fact is biblical idol worship, I suggest then that it is forbidden by Paul to attend. He says that even though Idols are not real that worship of demons is in fact occurring at said cultic events. 

I have suggested that Idol worship would require some extent of mental awareness or volition. Maybe this would be a valuable part of the conversation. I put forward this again to suggest validity to this opinion. 

17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this." 
19 "Go in peace," Elisha said.

Here, the prophet's theology seems to acknowledge that worship is a matter of the intellect/heart. When we say the mass equals/is idol worship are we saying it is what Paul condemns to the Corinthians. Is it equal to what YHWH forbid the ancients to do? I still see it as a leap. Again, I am not defending RC thought or practice so please refrain from dashing that straw man. Thanks again brothers and sisters.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> As an interesting aside, JG Machen would have attended RC services but would not have partook of the Mass. The problem is that it does not in my opinion bear good testimony to Christ to attend a service of worship which is explicitly against His glory; the Lord has told us to "flee from idolatry". Having said that, I do respect the _motives_ of others on the board and don't think that they are _intentionally_ trying to harm people.



Just to let you know my understanding about it a little more Daniel..... Have you ever had a friend at a Pub who needed your help because he was so blasted blind to his situation. I don't go to pubs or bars much. It isn't because I don't like to drink. I just don't think they are good environments that promote a good lifestyle. In fact I like my drinks overly strong. But I would go to a bar to be with a friend to help him get home. And I don't like bars and pubs either. 

Something that is missing in this world is friendship. True friendship. And I can be friends with a Catholic. Some Protestants might have problems with this depending on the local environment. 


This is one of my favorite Passages in the scripture. 



> (Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
> 
> (Rom 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
> 
> (Rom 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
> 
> (Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

Idolatry is worshipping something other than the ONE TRUE GOD. I would say that papist mythology does not honor the God of Scriptures, but has fashioned a god of its own tradition, and is therefore idolatry.


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## Mushroom

Naaman was in the committed service of his king, thus likely under threat of death if he refused to serve while the king was worshipping his idol, and given a special dispensation by a prophet of God. I don't know if that is analogous to an uncompelled christian attending an RC mass.


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## PuritanCovenanter

5pointer.....

Have you read Romans 1 where the people take the incorruptible God and put an image to him. 

They say that Christ humbles himself and becomes the bread and wine. 

What do you make of this passage.



> (Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 
> (Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


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## KMK

BobVigneault said:


> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.



Is there any place where people are being misled, misinformed and misdirected that you would not enter?

Is there any way to lead sheep out of the RCC without attending Mass?


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## PuritanCovenanter

KMK said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any place where people are being misled, misinformed and misdirected that you would not enter?
> 
> Is there any way to lead sheep out of the RCC without attending Mass?
Click to expand...


Well of course. Don't you have any friends that are Roman Catholic? But all situations are different. I would attend a RC wedding and or Funeral. A lot of guys on this board believe that an RC baptism is legit. I don't but that is another story and off topic. We all have access to Roman Catholics by work or neighbors unless you live in Geneva. LOL


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## Galatians220

I have tremendous respect for everyone here in all of these forums, for there are far more learned and mature Christians than I here. In every forum, there they are, and I defer to them.

Not everyone, though, by the grace of God, was exposed to as much Roman Catholicism as I was. Taught by a semi-cloistered order of nuns for 12 years, and through grad school courses by Jesuits in college; I took grad courses in Catholic liturgy and Catholic moral theology. I knew they were wrong, but I didn't know HOW wrong. I knew they were idolatrous, but it hasn't been until the last few years that the Lord has given me some sense of exactly what was/is going on in that organization that, worldwide, has one billion adherents. 

If there's one thing I've learned in all my years of born-again, fervent belief in the doctrines of grace - and with over 90% of my dear, extended family and friends still firmly rooted in the RCC - it's that you cannot successfully witness to a happy Catholic. *Only the Holy Spirit can bring someone out of the RCC.* There is absolutely nothing that we can do or say by our words, our witness, our "friendship evangelism," or anything else that can possibly interest a real Catholic in the real Gospel, not even slightly. They're so convinced of "works salvation" -- and even I am still picking off those "works burrs..."  When you attend a mass, you give assent to it in subtle ways, whether you think that's what you're doing or not. You give the impression that "real Christians" have no objection to standing shoulder to shoulder with Catholics at their masses, so there must be no problem with them. Believe me, they're hoping and praying that *you'll *come back there *for real *the next time and that you'll even join one of their "Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults" (convert) classes. The vast, vast majority of adult "cradle Catholics" give no thought to their ever leaving, not if the Holy Spirit has not begun His work in them. 

If you attend a mass, ask yourself whether you would want the Lord Jesus Christ walking alongside you as you walk into that church and look at the statues, the light on the altar that's supposed to signify the presence of the "Blessed Sacrament," the Stations of the Cross on both sides of the church and "the side altars" (which Catholic churches are still supposed to have). The altar on the left is "the Mary altar" and the one on the right is "the Joseph altar." There are so many other things... The tract racks with little prayers to St. Jude (the patron saint of hopeless situations), St. Anthony (the patron saint of lost items), the formulae for novenas to Mary, the prayers to St. Joseph, etc., etc.

But first, before you enter that church, read Hebrews 7 through 10...

I'm old enough to remember the mass said in Latin... How many masses have I attended in my lifetime? *Thousands...* I went to mass two to three times a week from first grade through 12th, and once a week during college and thereafter, until I finally couldn't take any more. But I praise the Lord! He brought me out - and it's all covered over by the Blood. "Hoc est corpus meum" ("this is My Body") said the priest in Latin. In my old church, if someone dropped a host on the floor of the church, it could only be retrieved by the "consecrated fingers" of a priest, and the spot where it had landed would have to be covered by a "blessed linen" until "holy water" was used to make that spot okay for people to walk on again. Idolatry? *Oh, yes!* 

Please, if you still doubt what I've said above, go to Richard Bennett's website, Berean Beacon and read... He's a former Catholic priest who now devotes his life to bringing others of the elect who remain in the RCC out... Or read the book, "Far From Rome, Near to God." Or go to Mike Gendron's "Proclaiming the Gospel" web site (I don't recommend that one as much for Reformed Protestants as others, but it's still worthwhile). Or try to find the book "Night Journey from Rome to the New Jerusalem" by Clark Butterfield, another Catholic priest who left, underwent conversion, began to preach the real Gospel - and then died under somewhat mysterious circumstances. 

As I said on the now-closed thread, I don't question other people's consciences or their status as Reformed believers or Christians just because they find that they can go to Catholic masses or other events. The Lord gave me a different life history, and part of that means that I can't do it - but I've no quarrel with others who can. I just want others to have "informed consent" when the occasion arises for them to attend a Catholic event... 

May the Lord bless this important discussion to His glory and for His always perfect purposes!

Margaret


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## PuritanCovenanter

God has used me to call a few Catholics away to the Truth found in Christ. One of my first effectual witnessing experiences was to a staunchly Roman Catholic buddy of mine in the Navy. His family abandoned him for a few years. He successfully, by good works and helping his family in time of need, reconciled with his family without Roman Catholicism and even has been effectual in leading some of his family members to Christ. There is something to be said for letting our lights shine in darkened places. 

Margaret,

With all due respect to your upbringing, I don't think you can speak for everyone in the Catholic faith nor do I think you can speak for how God will call people into His Kingdom with such a staunch statement as you made. God can use people to shine light in dark places.


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## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an interesting aside, JG Machen would have attended RC services but would not have partook of the Mass. The problem is that it does not in my opinion bear good testimony to Christ to attend a service of worship which is explicitly against His glory; the Lord has told us to "flee from idolatry". Having said that, I do respect the _motives_ of others on the board and don't think that they are _intentionally_ trying to harm people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to let you know my understanding about it a little more Daniel..... Have you ever had a friend at a Pub who needed your help because he was so blasted blind to his situation. I don't go to pubs or bars much. It isn't because I don't like to drink. I just don't think they are good environments that promote a good lifestyle. In fact I like my drinks overly strong. But I would go to a bar to be with a friend to help him get home. And I don't like bars and pubs either.
> 
> Something that is missing in this world is friendship. True friendship. And I can be friends with a Catholic. Some Protestants might have problems with this depending on the local environment.
> 
> 
> This is one of my favorite Passages in the scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
> 
> (Rom 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
> 
> (Rom 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
> 
> (Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Randy, I understand what you are saying here, as I once knew of a minister who used to spend his evenings picking up drunks from bars. 

However, there is a difference in that it is not wrong in and of itself to go to a bar, as what goes in at them may not be sinful, though it may be wrong in some circumstances to go their (i.e. when there is a stripper or some other immoral thing). Whereas, what goes on in the Roman Catholic mass is always sinful.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

We are going to disagree on this Daniel. I am not sure that you can be so lenient on bars or pubs either. Let your light shine brother.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> We are going to disagree on this Daniel. I am not sure that you can so lenient on bars or pubs either. Let your light shine brother.



Likewise. 

P.S. Is it right to say that bars and pubs have a more "sleezy" image in the USA than in the UK. I know that's  but I would like to know.


----------



## Stephen

A5pointer said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
Click to expand...


Yes, it is worshipped. The official teaching of Rome is that the bread and wine become the physical body of Christ when the priest elevates the host in the Roman mass. In the old Roman rite, that I grew up on, when the priest elevated the host, the acolyte would ring bells (which is still done in many massses) to indicate that this was the body of Christ. Many worshippers would make the sign of the cross or bow their heads (while in a posture of kneeling). After the priest would finish elevating the host he would genuflect. Roman Catholics are required to genuflect when they enter a Roman Catholic "church" because the consecrated bread from previous masses is stored in a box (tabernacle) on the main altar or side altar. At certain "services" the priest will place the consecrated host in what is called a monstrance and parade it before the people. He will leave this on a main altar for people to come for times of private adoration or worship. This is idolatry pure and simple.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Galatians220 said:


> . *Only the Holy Spirit can bring someone out of the RCC.* There is absolutely nothing that we can do or say by our words, our witness, our "friendship evangelism," or anything else that can possibly interest a real Catholic in the real Gospel, not even slightly.



I guess there is nothing to do with these people. We must not do anything. I guess we should just sit inside our four walls and wait for them to come to our doors. 

This is hyper Calvinism. 


I do not adhere to this kind of thinking.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> [
> 
> P.S. Is it right to say that bars and pubs have a more "sleezy" image in the USA than in the UK. I know that's  but I would like to know.



The ones I attend to are just humanistic and hook up joints. I have been over in Europe and it seemed they were the same way over in Spain, France, and Italy. Is the United Kingdom different? I doubt it. Especially since the UK is basically apostate anyways. It is probably just a good time Rock and Roll sit down joint to drink and discuss everyday things. 99% of it is Christless, and the 1% of his name being mentioned is just in vain.


----------



## Stephen

BobVigneault said:


> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)




Rome has redefined idolatry to be any kind of worship given to a false god. The worship of the mass is not considered idolatry, because it is worship given to the true God. They do not include the second commandment (you shall not make unto yourselves any graven image) in their listing of the ten. Ironic is it not?


----------



## Stephen

Blueridge Baptist said:


> mangum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like Mr. Knox, brother - The Mass is Idolatry (1550) by John Knox
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That Knox dude was a troublemaker.
Click to expand...



 I wish we had more troublemakers in the church today like him.


----------



## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
Click to expand...


Absolutely, but the people will still be held accountable on the day of judgment, unless they repent and put their trust in the one true and living priest, Jesus the Christ. This is why we must know how to be good apologists when witnessing to Romanists, so that we can point them to the LORD Jesus.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> P.S. Is it right to say that bars and pubs have a more "sleezy" image in the USA than in the UK. I know that's  but I would like to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ones I attend to are just humanistic and hook up joints. I have been over in Europe and it seemed they were the same way over in Spain, France, and Italy. Is the United Kingdom different? I doubt it. Especially since the UK is basically apostate anyways. It is probably just a good time Rock and Roll sit down joint to drink and discuss everyday things. 99% of it is Christless, and the 1% of his name being mentioned is just in vain.
Click to expand...


Well the nightclubs over here would be dens of iniquity, but the pubs differ. The ones in certain (usually inner city) areas (like the Shankill or Falls Roads in Belfast) can be pretty bad, while others are nice places to go for a quite drink - usually the more upmarket ones where you have to pay more (located in places like Belfast city center).


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?
> 
> Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?
> 
> My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely, but the people will still be held accountable on the day of judgment, unless they repent and put their trust in the one true and living priest, Jesus the Christ. This is why we must know how to be good apologists when witnessing to Romanists, so that we can point them to the LORD Jesus.
Click to expand...


----------



## Stephen

Wannabee said:


> From the Catholic Encyclopedia
> 
> eucharist.
> The name given to the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar in its twofold aspect of sacrament and Sacrifice of Mass, and in which Jesus Christ is truly present under the bread and wine.
> 
> 
> Sacrifice of the Mass
> 
> The simple fact that numerous heretics, such as Wyclif and Luther, repudiated the Mass as "idolatry", while retaining the Sacrament of the true Body and Blood of Christ, proves that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is something essentially different from the Sacrifice of the Mass. In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation [NOTE: Propitiation is not used]. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good.
> 
> 
> The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament
> 
> 
> The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
> 
> If, then, natural, literal interpretation were false, the Scriptural record alone would have to be considered as the cause of a pernicious error in faith and of the grievous crime of rendering Divine homage to bread (artolatria) — a supposition little in harmony with the character of the four Sacred Writers or with the inspiration of the Sacred Text. Moreover, we must not omit the important circumstance, that one of the four narrators has interpreted his own account literally. This is St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:27 sq.), who, in the most vigorous language, brands the unworthy recipient as "guilty of body and of the blood of the Lord". There can be no question of a grievous offense against Christ Himself unless we suppose that the true Body and the true Blood of Christ are really present in the Eucharist...
> In order to forestall at the very outset, the unworthy notion, that in the Eucharist we receive merely the Body and merely the Blood of Christ but not Christ in His entirety, the Council of Trent defined the Real Presence to be such as to include with Christ's Body and His Soul and Divinity as well. A strictly logical conclusion from the words of promise: "he that eateth me the same also shall live by me", this Totality of Presence was also the constant property of tradition, which characterized the partaking of separated parts of the Savior as a sarcophagy (flesh-eating) altogether derogatory to God. Although the separation of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Logos, is, absolutely speaking, within the almighty power of God, yet then actual inseparability is firmly established by the dogma of the indissolubility of the hypostatic union of Christ's Divinity and Humanity. In case the Apostles had celebrated the Lord's Supper during the triduum mortis (the time during which Christ's Body was in the tomb), when a real separation took place between the constitutive elements of Christ, there would have been really present in the Sacred Host only, the bloodless, inanimate Body of Christ as it lay in tomb, and in the Chalice only the Blood separated from His Body and absorbed by the earth as it was shed, both the Body and the Blood, however, hypostatically united to His Divinity, while His Soul, which sojourned in Limbo, would have remained entirely excluded from the Eucharistic presence...
> There is, furthermore, a fourth kind of multilocation, which, however, has not been realized in the Eucharist, but would be, if Christ's Body were present in its natural mode of existence both in heaven and on earth. Such a miracle might be assumed to have occurred in the conversion of St. Paul before the gates of Damascus, when Christ in person said.to him: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" So too the bilocation of saints, sometimes read of in the pages of hagiography, as, e.g., in the case of St. Alphonsus Liguori, cannot be arbitrarily cast aside as untrustworthy.





Rome speaks for itself. You have her own word on the matter.


----------



## Stephen

shackleton said:


> I believe the official RCC position would be that they are "aids to faith." They give the worshiper something to focus his attention on when praying or worshipping.
> 
> I had a Catholic once tell me that it is similar to Buddhism or Hinduism in that they have thousand of Gods to pray to and the RCC has thousands of saints to pray to. This makes for an easy change over. If you know any Catholics you immediately see that they have a saint to pray to for anything that is happening in their lives, including selling ones house. Simply plant a statue of St. Joseph (Jesus' step dad) in your front yard and you will sell your house.
> 
> There is a lot wrong with the RCC but if you listen to their theology it is not that different from your average arminian. I think there are Catholics who are saved but I don't think anyone could ever get saved according to what the chruch teaches.



I strongly disagree. They are more than aids to worship but it is still a violation of the second commandment. The teaching of Rome is a false gospel. The Puritans consider Romanism and Arminianism the two great enemies of the church.


----------



## Stephen

pilgrim3970 said:


> Some random thoughts:
> 
> To me the bigger problem with the Mass is belief that during the Mass Christ is offered up anew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Priest*: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
> may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
> 
> *All*: May the Lord accept the _sacrifice at your hands_,
> for the praise and glory of his name,
> for our good, and the good of all his Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This , to me, is *MUCH* more problematic (and just completley unbiblical) than the insistance the accidents change. One may debate about what Christ meant by "This is my body..." but there is just no debate to be had about the words of scripture which say:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, (Heb. 10:12)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's not to say that the belief that the elements physically become the body and blood of Christ isn't also problem. Because it has led to the superstitious practice of the "veneration of the blessed scarament" in which the wafer is placed in a chapel for the faithful to adore and prayer before.
> 
> To Roman Catholics, they are not "worshipping the bread" but worshipping Christ.
> 
> Their adoration of the scarament is much like the orthodox and their veneration of icons. Both view this like (and this is an example given to me by an aquaitence who is Eastern Orthodox) the way one might kiss or look with affection on a picture of a loved one.
> 
> Ok, I feel like I am rambling but hope some of this is useful information.
Click to expand...


Amen, brother. It is called the holy sacrifice of the Mass for a reason.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Stephen said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the official RCC position would be that they are "aids to faith." They give the worshiper something to focus his attention on when praying or worshipping.
> 
> I had a Catholic once tell me that it is similar to Buddhism or Hinduism in that they have thousand of Gods to pray to and the RCC has thousands of saints to pray to. This makes for an easy change over. If you know any Catholics you immediately see that they have a saint to pray to for anything that is happening in their lives, including selling ones house. Simply plant a statue of St. Joseph (Jesus' step dad) in your front yard and you will sell your house.
> 
> There is a lot wrong with the RCC but if you listen to their theology it is not that different from your average arminian. I think there are Catholics who are saved but I don't think anyone could ever get saved according to what the chruch teaches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree. They are more than aids to worship but it is still a violation of the second commandment. The teaching of Rome is a false gospel. The Puritans consider Romanism and Arminianism the two great enemies of the church.
Click to expand...


Rome sees certain forms of worship as lower than others, but this is not Biblical.


----------



## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.
> 
> I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.
> 
> Be careful how you guys want to judge others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.
> 
> Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.
Click to expand...


I understand the point you are making, Daniel. My family are all Roman Catholics and it is difficult when there is a wedding or funeral. When I have attended masses on occassion, I refuse to kneel or participate. We do not attend a hindu temple in order to witness to Hindu's, so you make a valid point.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

Stephen said:


> I understand the point you are making, Daniel. My family are all Roman Catholics and it is difficult when there is a wedding or funeral. When I have attended masses on occassion, I refuse to kneel or participate. We do not attend a hindu temple in order to witness to Hindu's, so you make a valid point.



I struggle with this issue. I have attended both weddings and funerals at Papist sites ( I refuse to use the word church in connection with them). I view such times of attendance as important to "reaching out and supporting" friends and loved ones. 

It is not a supporting of their false religion, but hopefully a means of encouraging and supporting them from the side of truth,

LIkewise, I do not kneel or in any way participate. But alway make sure to speak with those who I am "there for" and try to impart some word of truth.

I do not, in any way view my presence there as "worship."


----------



## Galatians220

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Galatians220 said:
> 
> 
> 
> . *Only the Holy Spirit can bring someone out of the RCC.* There is absolutely nothing that we can do or say by our words, our witness, our "friendship evangelism," or anything else that can possibly interest a real Catholic in the real Gospel, not even slightly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there is nothing to do with these people. We must not do anything. I guess we should just sit inside our four walls and wait for them to come to our doors.
> 
> This is hyper Calvinism.
> 
> 
> I do not adhere to this kind of thinking.
Click to expand...

 
No, no, I didn't mean that at all... There are plenty of Catholics who are unsettled (that's what I called them a few days ago on another thread); there are some who are seeking the real Gospel... I referred immediately above to not witnessing to "happy Catholics," if you'll recall my post non-selectively. 

I agree with you that hyper-Calvinism is also heresy.

We certainly should speak "a word in season." I've done that for about 14 years with a friend I met in high school. I've spent hours that amount to days on the phone with her, talking about Roman Catholic doctrine and theology versus the real Gospel, giving her things to read, etc. She'll attend a Reformed church with us for weeks or months, say she accepts the preaching and teaching - but eventually, she'll run back to the RCC. Why? _"Tradition." "I can't betray my parents like that." _Most recently (and finally): _"I'm a Catholic for life and that's where I'm staying."_ We should speak the truth in love to these people, but it's ultimately God's work. I'm still praying for her, but for the time being, I'm letting the witnessing go. I don't want her to drop me; the Lord may claim her out of the RCC yet.

People witnessed to me for years when I was in the RCC and even though I was always unhappy in it, I would rear up and get angry at the slightest indication that I might "find the Lord" elsewhere. All I'm saying is that we, by ourselves, can't drag someone out of the RCC. Powerful ethnic considerations figure into it as well (Irish-American, in my case). I miss celebrating St. Patrick's Day in some respects, but St. Patrick himself was a godly man who brought the Gospel to Ireland. I admire his witness and his efforts. However, he's not to be venerated in any way...

All I'm saying is that going to a Catholic church, expecting to reach out to those who are content in it and bring them to an understanding and "heart acceptance" of the real Gospel is going to lead to disappointment and maybe even a distaste for evangelism, which we should all avoid. If the Holy Spirit has begun His work in any particular Catholic, God will give the increase and He will lead our witness to him or her in the direction He will have them to go. 

After almost 20 years of witnessing to those nearest and dearest to me, I will say that I've seen the Holy Spirit working more effectively in the Jews I've witnessed to (and those also have been many) than on Catholics - thus beautifully illustrating Romans 1:16. But I'm trying not to make this anecdotal, per your earlier admonition, which I do appreciate and thank you for.

Thank you, Mr. Snyder, for your corrections, and God bless you.

Margaret


----------



## Stephen

Galatians220 said:


> I have tremendous respect for everyone here in all of these forums, for there are far more learned and mature Christians than I here. In every forum, there they are, and I defer to them.
> 
> Not everyone, though, by the grace of God, was exposed to as much Roman Catholicism as I was. Taught by a semi-cloistered order of nuns for 12 years, and through grad school courses by Jesuits in college; I took grad courses in Catholic liturgy and Catholic moral theology. I knew they were wrong, but I didn't know HOW wrong. I knew they were idolatrous, but it hasn't been until the last few years that the Lord has given me some sense of exactly what was/is going on in that organization that, worldwide, has one billion adherents.
> 
> If there's one thing I've learned in all my years of born-again, fervent belief in the doctrines of grace - and with over 90% of my dear, extended family and friends still firmly rooted in the RCC - it's that you cannot successfully witness to a happy Catholic. *Only the Holy Spirit can bring someone out of the RCC.* There is absolutely nothing that we can do or say by our words, our witness, our "friendship evangelism," or anything else that can possibly interest a real Catholic in the real Gospel, not even slightly. They're so convinced of "works salvation" -- and even I am still picking off those "works burrs..."  When you attend a mass, you give assent to it in subtle ways, whether you think that's what you're doing or not. You give the impression that "real Christians" have no objection to standing shoulder to shoulder with Catholics at their masses, so there must be no problem with them. Believe me, they're hoping and praying that *you'll *come back there *for real *the next time and that you'll even join one of their "Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults" (convert) classes. The vast, vast majority of adult "cradle Catholics" give no thought to their ever leaving, not if the Holy Spirit has not begun His work in them.
> 
> If you attend a mass, ask yourself whether you would want the Lord Jesus Christ walking alongside you as you walk into that church and look at the statues, the light on the altar that's supposed to signify the presence of the "Blessed Sacrament," the Stations of the Cross on both sides of the church and "the side altars" (which Catholic churches are still supposed to have). The altar on the left is "the Mary altar" and the one on the right is "the Joseph altar." There are so many other things... The tract racks with little prayers to St. Jude (the patron saint of hopeless situations), St. Anthony (the patron saint of lost items), the formulae for novenas to Mary, the prayers to St. Joseph, etc., etc.
> 
> But first, before you enter that church, read Hebrews 7 through 10...
> 
> I'm old enough to remember the mass said in Latin... How many masses have I attended in my lifetime? *Thousands...* I went to mass two to three times a week from first grade through 12th, and once a week during college and thereafter, until I finally couldn't take any more. But I praise the Lord! He brought me out - and it's all covered over by the Blood. "Hoc est corpus meum" ("this is My Body") said the priest in Latin. In my old church, if someone dropped a host on the floor of the church, it could only be retrieved by the "consecrated fingers" of a priest, and the spot where it had landed would have to be covered by a "blessed linen" until "holy water" was used to make that spot okay for people to walk on again. Idolatry? *Oh, yes!*
> 
> Please, if you still doubt what I've said above, go to Richard Bennett's website, Berean Beacon and read... He's a former Catholic priest who now devotes his life to bringing others of the elect who remain in the RCC out... Or read the book, "Far From Rome, Near to God." Or go to Mike Gendron's "Proclaiming the Gospel" web site (I don't recommend that one as much for Reformed Protestants as others, but it's still worthwhile). Or try to find the book "Night Journey from Rome to the New Jerusalem" by Clark Butterfield, another Catholic priest who left, underwent conversion, began to preach the real Gospel - and then died under somewhat mysterious circumstances.
> 
> As I said on the now-closed thread, I don't question other people's consciences or their status as Reformed believers or Christians just because they find that they can go to Catholic masses or other events. The Lord gave me a different life history, and part of that means that I can't do it - but I've no quarrel with others who can. I just want others to have "informed consent" when the occasion arises for them to attend a Catholic event...
> 
> May the Lord bless this important discussion to His glory and for His always perfect purposes!
> 
> Margaret



Thank you, Margaret. I almost entered the priesthood and was a strong RC, so I know what you are saying. Richard Bennett is good but there is also a great resource at refcm.org/RC 

To everyone on this thread let me say in Daniel's defense that he is not judging anyones motives, so let us offer him the same charity to speak his mind. I believe that he is making a valid point that he is intitled to make.


----------



## Stephen

Galatians220 said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galatians220 said:
> 
> 
> 
> . *Only the Holy Spirit can bring someone out of the RCC.* There is absolutely nothing that we can do or say by our words, our witness, our "friendship evangelism," or anything else that can possibly interest a real Catholic in the real Gospel, not even slightly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there is nothing to do with these people. We must not do anything. I guess we should just sit inside our four walls and wait for them to come to our doors.
> 
> This is hyper Calvinism.
> 
> 
> I do not adhere to this kind of thinking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, no, I didn't mean that at all... There are plenty of Catholics who are unsettled (that's what I called them a few days ago on another thread); there are some who are seeking the real Gospel... I referred immediately above to not witnessing to "happy Catholics," if you'll recall my post non-selectively.
> 
> I agree with you that hyper-Calvinism is also heresy.
> 
> We certainly should speak "a word in season." I've done that for about 14 years with a friend I met in high school. I've spent hours that amount to days on the phone with her, talking about Roman Catholic doctrine and theology versus the real Gospel, giving her things to read, etc. She'll attend a Reformed church with us for weeks or months, say she accepts the preaching and teaching - but eventually, she'll run back to the RCC. Why? _"Tradition." "I can't betray my parents like that." _Most recently (and finally): _"I'm a Catholic for life and that's where I'm staying."_ We should speak the truth in love to these people, but it's ultimately God's work. I'm still praying for her, but for the time being, I'm letting the witnessing go. I don't want her to drop me; the Lord may claim her out of the RCC yet.
> 
> People witnessed to me for years when I was in the RCC and even though I was always unhappy in it, I would rear up and get angry at the slightest indication that I might "find the Lord" elsewhere. All I'm saying is that we, by ourselves, can't drag someone out of the RCC. Powerful ethnic considerations figure into it as well (Irish-American, in my case). I miss celebrating St. Patrick's Day in some respects, but St. Patrick himself was a godly man who brought the Gospel to Ireland. I admire his witness and his efforts. However, he's not to be venerated in any way...
> 
> All I'm saying is that going to a Catholic church, expecting to reach out to those who are content in it and bring them to an understanding and "heart acceptance" of the real Gospel is going to lead to disappointment and maybe even a distaste for evangelism, which we should all avoid. If the Holy Spirit has begun His work in any particular Catholic, God will give the increase and He will lead our witness to him or her in the direction He will have them to go.
> 
> After almost 20 years of witnessing to those nearest and dearest to me, I will say that I've seen the Holy Spirit working more effectively in the Jews I've witnessed to (and those also have been many) than on Catholics - thus beautifully illustrating Romans 1:16. But I'm trying not to make this anecdotal, per your earlier admonition, which I do appreciate and thank you for.
> 
> Thank you, Mr. Snyder, for your corrections, and God bless you.
> 
> Margaret
Click to expand...


Thank you, Margaret. I understood your point well. You were not saying that we should do nothing to witness to RC's, but you are right it is difficult to convince them of the truth. If they refuse to see it, we pray for them and leave the matter with the LORD.


----------



## Galatians220

Stephen said:


> Rome has redefined idolatry to be any kind of worship given to a false god. The worship of the mass is not considered idolatry, because it is worship given to the true God. They do not include the second commandment (you shall not make unto yourselves any graven image) in their listing of the ten. Ironic is it not?


 
Yes, indeed. In fact, the RCC "renumbered" the commandments so that they could, in a fashion, keep the graven images. They combine the first and second, with the second appearing as though attached to the first and of less import. The second RCC commandment is "You shall not take the name of the the Lord, your God, in vain." The third is keeping holy the Sabbath, the fourth is honoring your parents, and so on until the 9th: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." The 10th is "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." (My source is the Catholic "New American Bible," Exodus 20:1-17.)

Margaret


----------



## Amazing Grace

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an interesting aside, JG Machen would have attended RC services but would not have partook of the Mass. The problem is that it does not in my opinion bear good testimony to Christ to attend a service of worship which is explicitly against His glory; the Lord has told us to "flee from idolatry". Having said that, I do respect the _motives_ of others on the board and don't think that they are _intentionally_ trying to harm people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to let you know my understanding about it a little more Daniel..... Have you ever had a friend at a Pub who needed your help because he was so blasted blind to his situation. I don't go to pubs or bars much. It isn't because I don't like to drink. I just don't think they are good environments that promote a good lifestyle. In fact I like my drinks overly strong. But I would go to a bar to be with a friend to help him get home. And I don't like bars and pubs either.
> 
> Something that is missing in this world is friendship. True friendship. And I can be friends with a Catholic. Some Protestants might have problems with this depending on the local environment.
> 
> 
> This is one of my favorite Passages in the scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
> 
> (Rom 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
> 
> (Rom 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
> 
> (Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Randy, I understand what you are saying here, as I once knew of a minister who used to spend his evenings picking up drunks from bars.
> 
> However, there is a difference in that it is not wrong in and of itself to go to a bar, as what goes in at them may not be sinful, though it may be wrong in some circumstances to go their (i.e. when there is a stripper or some other immoral thing). Whereas, what goes on in the Roman Catholic mass is always sinful.
Click to expand...




I dont know about this Daniel. There is a vien of thought here that just walking into a mass can contaminate the believer. I deny this vehemently. Walking into a pub should do the same. If you believe that contamination comes form the outside, there is no difference.

I have read many of Spurgeons sermons and he wailed on people who went dancing, drinking, movies etc etc


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Stephen said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the official RCC position would be that they are "aids to faith." They give the worshiper something to focus his attention on when praying or worshipping.
> 
> I had a Catholic once tell me that it is similar to Buddhism or Hinduism in that they have thousand of Gods to pray to and the RCC has thousands of saints to pray to. This makes for an easy change over. If you know any Catholics you immediately see that they have a saint to pray to for anything that is happening in their lives, including selling ones house. Simply plant a statue of St. Joseph (Jesus' step dad) in your front yard and you will sell your house.
> 
> There is a lot wrong with the RCC but if you listen to their theology it is not that different from your average arminian. I think there are Catholics who are saved but I don't think anyone could ever get saved according to what the chruch teaches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree. They are more than aids to worship but it is still a violation of the second commandment. The teaching of Rome is a false gospel. The Puritans consider Romanism and Arminianism the two great enemies of the church.
Click to expand...


 Sir.


----------



## mvdm

Following up on the reference to the the Heidelberg catechism's description of the mass as a "condemnable idolatry", we should note the CRC has done away with confessing that language. From their February 2008 press release: 

The final three paragraphs in the catechism containing “condemnable idolatry” have not been deleted from Q and A 80, but the section has been put in brackets.

In a footnote, the Synod has added the brackets “to indicate that they do not accurately reflect the official teaching and practice of today’s Roman Catholic Church and are no longer confessionally binding on members of the CRC.”

CRC Releases Final Report on Catholic Eucharist - Christian Reformed Church


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

The 1903 American WCF has also deleted the "synagogues of Satan" and the language in ch. 25 of the Papal Anti-Christ.


----------



## py3ak

According to the RPW, the mass is idolatry. It is also blasphemy, as many have noted in its "representation" of the unique sacrifice of Christ, and in the great power ascribed to the priest to compel Christ to come down from heaven. But probably the list could go on of ways that it is an offense to God and to godly men.


----------



## SolaGratia

We all pretty much know, by the grace of God, that not only the mass, but the whole system of the popish church teaches idolatry. The main problem is that the people in the pews are not aware of it. For this reason, they must be confronted with the true Gospel. 

A la John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, has worked the best! 

It work for me.


----------



## A5pointer

Stephen said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it is worshipped. The official teaching of Rome is that the bread and wine become the physical body of Christ when the priest elevates the host in the Roman mass. In the old Roman rite, that I grew up on, when the priest elevated the host, the acolyte would ring bells (which is still done in many massses) to indicate that this was the body of Christ. Many worshippers would make the sign of the cross or bow their heads (while in a posture of kneeling). After the priest would finish elevating the host he would genuflect. Roman Catholics are required to genuflect when they enter a Roman Catholic "church" because the consecrated bread from previous masses is stored in a box (tabernacle) on the main altar or side altar. At certain "services" the priest will place the consecrated host in what is called a monstrance and parade it before the people. He will leave this on a main altar for people to come for times of private adoration or worship. This is idolatry pure and simple.
Click to expand...


I hear this, but have suggested that ignorance of this does not equal "worship of idols" for the participants. The thread continues to argue whether Catholics should be evangelized in their context but continues to miss the question. Is the mass the worship of idols? As a continuing question are we seeing the orthodox gatherings in the same light as they include icons. I still think it is wrong to dismiss these groups as engaging only in "idol worship". Wow sure feels lonely on the PB to stand alone on the question. Yikes.


----------



## DMcFadden

I cannot disagree with the charge of idolatry (after all, doesn't just about every sin reduce to idolatry in the end?), and voted "yes" in conformity to the Reformed confessional affirmations. However, I doubt that the average Catholic sees their sacramental observance as anything other than the worship of the triune God in a way that has historical continuity with the church all the way back to the first century. Wrong? Absoloutely!

My personal preference for describing the mass is to call it the rankest form of blasphemy in that it denies the finished work of Christ, subjecting him (in their view) to a continual sacrifice and so blaspheming Christ and his atonement. Idolatry is such a general evil, encompassing practically any turning from God for any reason, blasphemy describes a bit more specifically the problem in my opinion.


----------



## caoclan

I am a former RC. Here is an example of the idolatry of the mass. The Alter Christus.


----------



## kvanlaan

> Is there any way to lead sheep out of the RCC without attending Mass?



Sure, bingo halls. Go forth, brethren, and reap the harvest! (If you can handle the gambling...)

Seriously though, I personally have a problem with the idea of attending mass for purposes of prosthelyzing. 

Where does that end? 

We attend Mass but do not participate, thus it is OK, as we are there to witness. 

There are strip joints all over the place, full of people who have never heard the Gospel. If we aren't actually tucking any bills into G-strings, is this an appropriate mission field for the Christian? I would not enter into the hall of a mosque during prayers to spread the Word there - why is the Mass any different? Wait outside a cathedral to catch people coming out, sure, but need we take it further than that?



> the CRC has done away with confessing that language



They've also 'invalidated' the 'maleness' of church office. Thankfully, the decisions of the CRC do not alter the content of the HC!


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to let you know my understanding about it a little more Daniel..... Have you ever had a friend at a Pub who needed your help because he was so blasted blind to his situation. I don't go to pubs or bars much. It isn't because I don't like to drink. I just don't think they are good environments that promote a good lifestyle. In fact I like my drinks overly strong. But I would go to a bar to be with a friend to help him get home. And I don't like bars and pubs either.
> 
> Something that is missing in this world is friendship. True friendship. And I can be friends with a Catholic. Some Protestants might have problems with this depending on the local environment.
> 
> 
> This is one of my favorite Passages in the scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Randy, I understand what you are saying here, as I once knew of a minister who used to spend his evenings picking up drunks from bars.
> 
> However, there is a difference in that it is not wrong in and of itself to go to a bar, as what goes in at them may not be sinful, though it may be wrong in some circumstances to go their (i.e. when there is a stripper or some other immoral thing). Whereas, what goes on in the Roman Catholic mass is always sinful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know about this Daniel. There is a vien of thought here that just walking into a mass can contaminate the believer. I deny this vehemently. Walking into a pub should do the same. If you believe that contamination comes form the outside, there is no difference.
> 
> I have read many of Spurgeons sermons and he wailed on people who went dancing, drinking, movies etc etc
Click to expand...


By attending a mass you are present at an idolatrous service in which Christ is supposedly "re-sacrificed", surely such idolatry cannot but contaminate those who attend it.

While it is true that "out of the heart of man" proceeds idolatry, it nevertheless has external manifestations which defile those that partake in it.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Randy, I understand what you are saying here, as I once knew of a minister who used to spend his evenings picking up drunks from bars.
> 
> However, there is a difference in that it is not wrong in and of itself to go to a bar, as what goes in at them may not be sinful, though it may be wrong in some circumstances to go their (i.e. when there is a stripper or some other immoral thing). Whereas, what goes on in the Roman Catholic mass is always sinful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know about this Daniel. There is a vien of thought here that just walking into a mass can contaminate the believer. I deny this vehemently. Walking into a pub should do the same. If you believe that contamination comes form the outside, there is no difference.
> 
> I have read many of Spurgeons sermons and he wailed on people who went dancing, drinking, movies etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By attending a mass you are present at an idolatrous service in which Christ is supposedly "re-sacrificed", surely such idolatry cannot but contaminate those who attend it.
> 
> While it is true that "out of the heart of man" proceeds idolatry, it nevertheless has external manifestations which defile those that partake in it.
Click to expand...


I only observed. I didn't partake. Now you can argue all you want about degrees and such but I never agreed with the mass while attending a mass at a wedding or a Christmas function and I didn't partake of the elements. And I didn't kneel for them either. I sat and quietly prayed for Christ to reveal his truth to those individuals. I was not contaminated. I was a witness for the truth found in Christ to those who knew me. And I was a friend who shared in the wedding. Are you also going to say that a marriage performed in a Catholic Church is not a marriage? I warn you to tread lightly on this one. There is also the issue of the Reformers whose ordinations were done while they were Catholic. Did they have to be reordained. How far do you want to argue this point. 

I was not contaminated by Roman Catholicism when I went to observe and find out what it was. I was not contaminated by Roman theology when I went to a wedding. My testimony wasn't damaged either. My friendships have benefited though.


----------



## Mushroom

The mass is idolatry, and the iconagraphy of the EO is idolatry. To say most of the members are ignorant of that fact is obvious, because they would say it is not. Its not like the priests know it is and hide it from the membership, they also believe it is not idolatry. So does this ignorance grant them immunity from the charge of being idolaters? I would say not. Note that the 1 Cor 5 verse speaks of _any man called a brother_ being an idolater, which indicates that someone who calls himself a christian can be an idolater, which appears to describe the entire Roman congregation. The verse tells us to not keep company with such, not even for a meal. It appears that we are to deal with this category more rigidly than your run-of-the-mill pagan.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

A5pointer said:


> I hear this, but have suggested that ignorance of this does not equal "worship of idols" for the participants. The thread continues to argue whether Catholics should be evangelized in their context but continues to miss the question. Is the mass the worship of idols? As a continuing question are we seeing the orthodox gatherings in the same light as they include icons. I still think it is wrong to dismiss these groups as engaging only in "idol worship". Wow sure feels lonely on the PB to stand alone on the question. Yikes.



A5pointer,

You have not answered my question yet. Maybe you didn't see it. So here it is again.....



PuritanCovenanter said:


> 5pointer.....
> 
> Have you read Romans 1 where the people take the incorruptible God and put an image to him.
> 
> They say that Christ humbles himself and becomes the bread and wine.
> 
> What do you make of this passage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 
> (Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Click to expand...


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know about this Daniel. There is a vien of thought here that just walking into a mass can contaminate the believer. I deny this vehemently. Walking into a pub should do the same. If you believe that contamination comes form the outside, there is no difference.
> 
> I have read many of Spurgeons sermons and he wailed on people who went dancing, drinking, movies etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By attending a mass you are present at an idolatrous service in which Christ is supposedly "re-sacrificed", surely such idolatry cannot but contaminate those who attend it.
> 
> While it is true that "out of the heart of man" proceeds idolatry, it nevertheless has external manifestations which defile those that partake in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I only observed. I didn't partake. Now you can argue all you want about degrees and such but I never agreed with the mass while attending a mass at a wedding or a Christmas function and I didn't partake of the elements. And I didn't kneel for them either. I sat and quietly prayed for Christ to reveal his truth to those individuals. I was not contaminated. I was a witness for the truth found in Christ to those who knew me. And I was a friend who shared in the wedding. Are you also going to say that a marriage performed in a Catholic Church is not a marriage? I warn you to tread lightly on this one. There is also the issue of the Reformers whose ordinations were done while they were Catholic. Did they have to be reordained. How far do you want to argue this point.
> 
> I was not contaminated by Roman Catholicism when I went to observe and find out what it was. I was not contaminated by Roman theology when I went to a wedding. My testimony wasn't damaged either. My friendships have benefited though.
Click to expand...


Sorry Randy, I was referring to Nicholas' comments (I know your's are in there too, but that was not who I was replying to).


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Brad said:


> The mass is idolatry, and the iconagraphy of the EO is idolatry. To say most of the members are ignorant of that fact is obvious, because they would say it is not. Its not like the priests know it is and hide it from the membership, they also believe it is not idolatry. So does this ignorance grant them immunity from the charge of being idolaters? I would say not. Note that the 1 Cor 5 verse speaks of _any man called a brother_ being an idolater, which indicates that someone who calls himself a christian can be an idolater, which appears to describe the entire Roman congregation. The verse tells us to not keep company with such, not even for a meal. It appears that we are to deal with this category more rigidly than your run-of-the-mill pagan.



Rome has apostasised so much that its adherents are generally run-of-the-mill pagans. I think the passage would apply to those who professed to be Christians (i.e. Evangelical Protestants) but were worshipping other gods.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> By attending a mass you are present at an idolatrous service in which Christ is supposedly "re-sacrificed", surely such idolatry cannot but contaminate those who attend it.
> 
> While it is true that "out of the heart of man" proceeds idolatry, it nevertheless has external manifestations which defile those that partake in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I only observed. I didn't partake. Now you can argue all you want about degrees and such but I never agreed with the mass while attending a mass at a wedding or a Christmas function and I didn't partake of the elements. And I didn't kneel for them either. I sat and quietly prayed for Christ to reveal his truth to those individuals. I was not contaminated. I was a witness for the truth found in Christ to those who knew me. And I was a friend who shared in the wedding. Are you also going to say that a marriage performed in a Catholic Church is not a marriage? I warn you to tread lightly on this one. There is also the issue of the Reformers whose ordinations were done while they were Catholic. Did they have to be reordained. How far do you want to argue this point.
> 
> I was not contaminated by Roman Catholicism when I went to observe and find out what it was. I was not contaminated by Roman theology when I went to a wedding. My testimony wasn't damaged either. My friendships have benefited though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry Randy, I was referring to Nicholas' comments (I know your's are in there too, but that was not who I was replying to).
Click to expand...


But your implication attached a contamination to me also. So you got a reply. 
Be careful when you start implying general things. Not everyone is "contaminated" by a Roman Catholic service.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I only observed. I didn't partake. Now you can argue all you want about degrees and such but I never agreed with the mass while attending a mass at a wedding or a Christmas function and I didn't partake of the elements. And I didn't kneel for them either. I sat and quietly prayed for Christ to reveal his truth to those individuals. I was not contaminated. I was a witness for the truth found in Christ to those who knew me. And I was a friend who shared in the wedding. Are you also going to say that a marriage performed in a Catholic Church is not a marriage? I warn you to tread lightly on this one. There is also the issue of the Reformers whose ordinations were done while they were Catholic. Did they have to be reordained. How far do you want to argue this point.
> 
> I was not contaminated by Roman Catholicism when I went to observe and find out what it was. I was not contaminated by Roman theology when I went to a wedding. My testimony wasn't damaged either. My friendships have benefited though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Randy, I was referring to Nicholas' comments (I know your's are in there too, but that was not who I was replying to).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But your implication attached a contamination to me also. So you got a reply.
> Be careful when you start implying general things. Not everyone is "contaminated" by a Roman Catholic service.
Click to expand...


But how can you not be? Scripture tells us to "flee from idolatry", and attending a Roman Catholic service is not fleeing from it, even if you go there out of praiseworthy motives, and even if you do not partake of the Mass.


----------



## jawyman

Archlute said:


> When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.


----------



## A5pointer

PuritanCovenanter said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this, but have suggested that ignorance of this does not equal "worship of idols" for the participants. The thread continues to argue whether Catholics should be evangelized in their context but continues to miss the question. Is the mass the worship of idols? As a continuing question are we seeing the orthodox gatherings in the same light as they include icons. I still think it is wrong to dismiss these groups as engaging only in "idol worship". Wow sure feels lonely on the PB to stand alone on the question. Yikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A5pointer,
> 
> You have not answered my question yet. Maybe you didn't see it. So here it is again.....
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5pointer.....
> 
> Have you read Romans 1 where the people take the incorruptible God and put an image to him.
> 
> They say that Christ humbles himself and becomes the bread and wine.
> 
> What do you make of this passage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 
> *(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Sorry, thank you for asking again. Respectfully, I see no correlation. The Roman Catholic error in the mass has nothing to do with "an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things" And again, I do not see how this intersects the question, "is the mass the same as the worship of idols"? Are we saying that there can be no true worship by any individuals attending the mass? I still think this is going too far.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

A5pointer said:


> Sorry, thank you for asking again. Respectfully, I see no correlation. The Roman Catholic error in the mass has nothing to do with "an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things" And again, I do not see how this intersects the question, "is the mass the same as the worship of idols"? Are we saying that there can be no true worship by any individuals attending the mass? I still think this is going too far.




You don't think that the belief of God coming and presenting himself in the form of a piece of bread and wine is not taking the uncorruptible God and making him into something even far more less than a living object? You don't think that this applies? Bread and wine are even lower elements than the ones mentioned in the passage. 


> (Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 
> (Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Randy, I was referring to Nicholas' comments (I know your's are in there too, but that was not who I was replying to).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But your implication attached a contamination to me also. So you got a reply.
> Be careful when you start implying general things. Not everyone is "contaminated" by a Roman Catholic service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how can you not be? Scripture tells us to "flee from idolatry", and attending a Roman Catholic service is not fleeing from it, even if you go there out of praiseworthy motives, and even if you do not partake of the Mass.
Click to expand...


Daniel,
Give it up. I did not adhere to any doctrine that was idolatrous. Some things performed in the Catholic Church God does sanction. Marriage being one. Some think that Baptism is another on this board. I give my blessings upon weddings and go grieve with those who grieve. I know God blesses those things despite the bad in this world. I have fled idolatry and stood with the sinner. If fleeing idolatry is removing myself from sinners than I will be lost for ever. Even Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 acknowledges we are to be in the world. My voting booth for the political stuff was in a Catholic Church this year. I was not contaminated then and that church is full of images and statues. 

If your conscience is to weak to enter a Roman building I suggest you stay away from them. Mine isn't.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> But your implication attached a contamination to me also. So you got a reply.
> Be careful when you start implying general things. Not everyone is "contaminated" by a Roman Catholic service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how can you not be? Scripture tells us to "flee from idolatry", and attending a Roman Catholic service is not fleeing from it, even if you go there out of praiseworthy motives, and even if you do not partake of the Mass.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> Give it up. I did not adhere to any doctrine that was idolatrous. Some things performed in the Catholic Church God does sanction. Marriage being one. Some think that Baptism is another on this board. I give my blessings upon weddings and go grieve with those who grieve. I know God blesses those things despite the bad in this world. I have fled idolatry and stood with the sinner. If fleeing idolatry is removing myself from sinners than I will be lost for ever. Even Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 acknowledges we are to be in the world. My voting booth for the political stuff was in a Catholic Church this year. I was not contaminated then and that church is full of images and statues.
> 
> If your conscience is to weak to enter a Roman building I suggest you stay away from them. Mine isn't.
Click to expand...


Randy (I love the way you put things) I am not saying you cannot enter a Roman building, but you should not attend a Roman service which is designed to worship the "god" of Roman Catholicism. This does not mean that we never befriend Roman Catholics, but we should not join with them in their services any more than we should attend Muslim weddings or Hindu weddings. Now I am not saying that you agreed with Rome when you were at the service, but I cannot see how attending a service of a false religion can possibly help its adherents to forsake it.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Randy (I love the way you put things) I am not saying you cannot enter a Roman building, but you should not attend a Roman service which is designed to worship the "god" of Roman Catholicism. This does not mean that we never befriend Roman Catholics, but we should not join with them in their services any more than we should attend Muslim weddings or Hindu weddings. Now I am not saying that you agreed with Rome when you were at the service, but I cannot see how attending a service of a false religion can possibly help its adherents to forsake it.



I understand that you don't see how it can do anything. That is why I told you to stay away if your conscience bothers you about it. I did mention baptisms also. You make it sound like I only mentioned buildings. But the way you make it sound you need to stay away from buildings because they reek with idolatry in images of Christ and crucifixes. These things are objects and might contaminate you. Icons may do the same things. 

You don't have to see it. I am not asking you to see it. I am telling you to steer clear if your conscience bothers you about it. I am also telling you I am not contaminated by it and I do have friends that are true friends that have been Catholic and are not now. You don't have to see it.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Randy (I love the way you put things) I am not saying you cannot enter a Roman building, but you should not attend a Roman service which is designed to worship the "god" of Roman Catholicism. This does not mean that we never befriend Roman Catholics, but we should not join with them in their services any more than we should attend Muslim weddings or Hindu weddings. Now I am not saying that you agreed with Rome when you were at the service, but I cannot see how attending a service of a false religion can possibly help its adherents to forsake it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you don't see how it can do anything. That is why I told you to stay away if your conscience bothers you about it. I did mention baptisms also. You make it sound like I only mentioned buildings. But the way you make it sound you need to stay away from buildings because they reek with idolatry in images of Christ and crucifixes. These things are objects and might contaminate you. Icons may do the same things.
> 
> You don't have to see it. I am not asking you to see it. I am telling you to steer clear if your conscience bothers you about it. I am also telling you I am not contaminated by it and I do have friends that are true friends that have been Catholic and are not now. You don't have to see it.
Click to expand...


Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )



Yeah, I agree. I was done also. If you had one more argument I wasn't going to respond. LOL 

Goodnight brother,

Love ya,
Randy


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I agree. I was done also. If you had one more argument I wasn't going to respond. LOL
> 
> Goodnight brother,
> 
> Love ya,
> Randy
Click to expand...


 Thanks Randy.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Daniel Ritchie said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Randy (I love the way you put things) I am not saying you cannot enter a Roman building, but you should not attend a Roman service which is designed to worship the "god" of Roman Catholicism. This does not mean that we never befriend Roman Catholics, but we should not join with them in their services any more than we should attend Muslim weddings or Hindu weddings. Now I am not saying that you agreed with Rome when you were at the service, but I cannot see how attending a service of a false religion can possibly help its adherents to forsake it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you don't see how it can do anything. That is why I told you to stay away if your conscience bothers you about it. I did mention baptisms also. You make it sound like I only mentioned buildings. But the way you make it sound you need to stay away from buildings because they reek with idolatry in images of Christ and crucifixes. These things are objects and might contaminate you. Icons may do the same things.
> 
> You don't have to see it. I am not asking you to see it. I am telling you to steer clear if your conscience bothers you about it. I am also telling you I am not contaminated by it and I do have friends that are true friends that have been Catholic and are not now. You don't have to see it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )
Click to expand...




Daniel:

Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you don't see how it can do anything. That is why I told you to stay away if your conscience bothers you about it. I did mention baptisms also. You make it sound like I only mentioned buildings. But the way you make it sound you need to stay away from buildings because they reek with idolatry in images of Christ and crucifixes. These things are objects and might contaminate you. Icons may do the same things.
> 
> You don't have to see it. I am not asking you to see it. I am telling you to steer clear if your conscience bothers you about it. I am also telling you I am not contaminated by it and I do have friends that are true friends that have been Catholic and are not now. You don't have to see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel:
> 
> Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.
Click to expand...


Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, we will just have to agree to differ on this one (not to mention the fact that it is 4 am over here )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel:
> 
> Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.
Click to expand...




What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?


----------



## Stephen

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the point you are making, Daniel. My family are all Roman Catholics and it is difficult when there is a wedding or funeral. When I have attended masses on occassion, I refuse to kneel or participate. We do not attend a hindu temple in order to witness to Hindu's, so you make a valid point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I struggle with this issue. I have attended both weddings and funerals at Papist sites ( I refuse to use the word church in connection with them). I view such times of attendance as important to "reaching out and supporting" friends and loved ones.
> 
> It is not a supporting of their false religion, but hopefully a means of encouraging and supporting them from the side of truth,
> 
> LIkewise, I do not kneel or in any way participate. But alway make sure to speak with those who I am "there for" and try to impart some word of truth.
> 
> I do not, in any way view my presence there as "worship."
Click to expand...


I have taken the same position as you, that I am their to support family at times like a funeral, but I understand where Daniel is coming from on this. It is difficult for those of us who were Papists when we are in these situations, because I have been very uncomfortable many times going back, because I know this is false worship. Margaret (Gal. 220) previously mentioned her experience attending her father's funeral, and I must commend her for her stand, as difficult as it was. When I read Knox's classic treatis on worship it makes me realize how much more radical he was in his approach to Papist worship.


----------



## Stephen

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> The 1903 American WCF has also deleted the "synagogues of Satan" and the language in ch. 25 of the Papal Anti-Christ.





This is why as a PCA teaching elder I subscribe to the original confession and not the American edition. It would be interesting to see why the American edition elimiated this language. In my opinion it was a serious compromise. Many reformed denominations such as the RPCNA subscribe to the original confession.


----------



## Stephen

A5pointer said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is worshipped. The official teaching of Rome is that the bread and wine become the physical body of Christ when the priest elevates the host in the Roman mass. In the old Roman rite, that I grew up on, when the priest elevated the host, the acolyte would ring bells (which is still done in many massses) to indicate that this was the body of Christ. Many worshippers would make the sign of the cross or bow their heads (while in a posture of kneeling). After the priest would finish elevating the host he would genuflect. Roman Catholics are required to genuflect when they enter a Roman Catholic "church" because the consecrated bread from previous masses is stored in a box (tabernacle) on the main altar or side altar. At certain "services" the priest will place the consecrated host in what is called a monstrance and parade it before the people. He will leave this on a main altar for people to come for times of private adoration or worship. This is idolatry pure and simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hear this, but have suggested that ignorance of this does not equal "worship of idols" for the participants. The thread continues to argue whether Catholics should be evangelized in their context but continues to miss the question. Is the mass the worship of idols? As a continuing question are we seeing the orthodox gatherings in the same light as they include icons. I still think it is wrong to dismiss these groups as engaging only in "idol worship". Wow sure feels lonely on the PB to stand alone on the question. Yikes.
Click to expand...


It does not matter whether the worshippers are ignorant or not, they will still be judged as all men will be judged. It does not matter if it is Roman or Eastern Orthodox it is still idolatry. I have stated why it is idolatry because it is the worship of graven images or robing the LORD of His glory. It is strange worship that is not prescribed by Scripture. The reformers, especially Calvin in his treatise The Necessity of Reforming the Church state this point very clearly. If you look at the official teaching of Rome on the doctrine of the mass, it is clearly idolatry.


----------



## Stephen

DMcFadden said:


> I cannot disagree with the charge of idolatry (after all, doesn't just about every sin reduce to idolatry in the end?), and voted "yes" in conformity to the Reformed confessional affirmations. However, I doubt that the average Catholic sees their sacramental observance as anything other than the worship of the triune God in a way that has historical continuity with the church all the way back to the first century. Wrong? Absoloutely!
> 
> My personal preference for describing the mass is to call it the rankest form of blasphemy in that it denies the finished work of Christ, subjecting him (in their view) to a continual sacrifice and so blaspheming Christ and his atonement. Idolatry is such a general evil, encompassing practically any turning from God for any reason, blasphemy describes a bit more specifically the problem in my opinion.



 You have stated the issue as well as anyone. Thank you. The mass is a denial of the finished work of Christ, so it is idolatry.


----------



## Stephen

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel:
> 
> Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?
Click to expand...


What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.


----------



## CDM

A5pointer said:


> Hey, I am back. This thread if read carefully wanders off target. Much has been rightly said about the errors of theology in the mass. It is universally agreed here that the mass in it's theology is wrong, badly wrong, dishonoring to Christ and his work and even despicable. But the question begs does all this necessarily equal "idol worship" intrinsically? I have been painted into a corner as if I am defending RC practice and theology. I am merely suggesting that to equate the mass to idol worship is a stretch. As the lone dissenter I thank those who have shown concern about charitable conversation but I am fine with it. I respect the opinions of those expressed and the fervency that may come through as harsh. If I may refer to the question of whether the mass should be avoided by us. If the mass in fact is biblical idol worship, I suggest then that it is forbidden by Paul to attend. He says that even though Idols are not real that worship of demons is in fact occurring at said cultic events.
> 
> I have suggested that Idol worship would require some extent of mental awareness or volition. Maybe this would be a valuable part of the conversation. I put forward this again to suggest validity to this opinion.
> 
> 17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this."
> 19 "Go in peace," Elisha said.
> 
> Here, the prophet's theology seems to acknowledge that worship is a matter of the intellect/heart. When we say the mass equals/is idol worship are we saying it is what Paul condemns to the Corinthians. Is it equal to what YHWH forbid the ancients to do? I still see it as a leap. Again, I am not defending RC thought or practice so please refrain from dashing that straw man. Thanks again brothers and sisters.



Thanks for the answer.

Does idolatry exist today then? 

And, I asked the question earlier, what does the scriptures and God say about idolaters? Are there any distinctions drawn between those that are merely in attendance at idolatrous and blasphemous ceremonies and those that are really _really_ into it?


----------



## A5pointer

Well, seems we have a quorum 61-1  We are 62-0 that the theology of the mass is detestable. I can add that if the mass is indeed the worship of idols. It should not be attended as per Paul to the Corinthians. In this many of you are consistent some need think it through again.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel:
> 
> Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?
Click to expand...


What I mean is that I have uncles, aunts and cousins who were nominal Protestants, but married Papists - thus they converted to become nominal Roman Catholics themselves.

They know enough about me to know that I have no time for Popery, hence the invites are not forthcoming.


----------



## Theogenes

Here's a site where people can see the wafer god via a web cam and worship in the privacy of their cubicle:
Welcome to Savior.org!

If this isn't idolatry then I don't know what is....


----------



## Stephen

Theogenes said:


> Here's a site where people can see the wafer god via a web cam and worship in the privacy of their cubicle:
> Welcome to Savior.org!
> 
> If this isn't idolatry then I don't know what is....




Thank you. This is what I refered to in one of my previous entries in this discussion. This is idolatry.


----------



## BobVigneault

It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?






Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

BobVigneault said:


> It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006



I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

*Just a Note*

Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.


----------



## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.




Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.
Click to expand...


Sometimes it is easy to come across as more harsh than you want to be when you are writing on a discussion board. I find it easier to talk to people in the flesh, as they can see your facial expressions and hear the tone of your voice.

Recently I was talking to a fellow Northern Ireland person about why so many Evangelical and Reformed people in the USA did not object strongly to the Passion of Christ movie. He could not understand how godly men could do such a thing, but i reminded him that while I thought they were wrong, we have to remember that Christians in America are in a war with Secular Humanism, and so it is understandable that many of them would look favourable upon something that went against the secular grain - even though it was unbiblical. Maybe the same applies here.


----------



## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is easy to come across as more harsh than you want to be when you are writing on a discussion board. I find it easier to talk to people in the flesh, as they can see your facial expressions and hear the tone of your voice.
> 
> *This is the problem with bloging and all this new technology. You cannot read a person's mind or interpret their attitude or intonation by a two sentence statement, that may be filled with abreviations that most of us do not know. *
> 
> Recently I was talking to a fellow Northern Ireland person about why so many Evangelical and Reformed people in the USA did not object strongly to the Passion of Christ movie. He could not understand how godly men could do such a thing, but i reminded him that while I thought they were wrong, we have to remember that Christians in America are in a war with Secular Humanism, and so it is understandable that many of them would look favourable upon something that went against the secular grain - even though it was unbiblical. Maybe the same applies here.
Click to expand...


*As Protestants we have many enemies and humanism is a major one. *


----------



## Amazing Grace

Stephen said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.
Click to expand...




Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension. 

_*Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery*_

There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins. 

Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.


----------



## KMK

Amazing Grace said:


> We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.



I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.


----------



## Amazing Grace

KMK said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.
Click to expand...


Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.


----------



## KMK

Amazing Grace said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.
Click to expand...


Error is different than idolatry. Otherwise we could never worship at any church anywhere except some hypothetically 'error free' Baptist church. 

I am not sure what your point is. Who is the 'they' to whom you are referring? They on this thread who would attend Mass or they who are RCs who attend Mass?


----------



## Amazing Grace

KMK said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Error is different than idolatry. Otherwise we could never worship at any church anywhere except some hypothetically 'error free' Baptist church.
> 
> I am not sure what your point is. Who is the 'they' to whom you are referring? They on this thread who would attend Mass or they who are RCs who attend Mass?
Click to expand...




I never thought it was different, Ill chew on this a tad. I do not know if it is different. Look at how many baptism threads on this board have ended in turmoil. How could a strict padeo even think of attending a credo baptism or vice versa and not partake in the perceived sin? 

disclaimer, i am not saying it is, but for some who have vehemently wrote on either side against the other, very few have said this, but we all know they believe it!!! SO just as some will not call the others 'odinance/sacrament' a sin in order to remain friends, why not attend the fineral of a family member or friend?

The 'they' are the rc members who go. They have no clue, most of them, what their church teaches!!!! Therefore when they send the invite, it never crosses their mind, unless it is Daniel, that this may pose a conflict. 

I attended a Bar Mitvah twice. I did not leave their with a yamulke stapled to my head!!!


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## SueS

We live near Steubenville, Ohio, the home of the (in)famous Franciscan University, a centre of old-style Catholicism and the place where the idea of Mary as co-redemptris originated. It's a very Catholic town.

This evening while out shopping, dh and I saw a young man sporting a sweatshirt with the words, "Mary, I belong to thee: All I have is thine" 

I was forced into the RCC when my widowed dad remarried a Catholic. I remember the praying to statues and my stepmother informing me that the RCC was "the only church".

My half sister recently wrote to us speaking with joy about how her family engages in "Eucharistic adoration", which is something that is being promoted right now. It involves praying to the wafer in the belief that it is Jesus.

When this sister was married she placed a special bouquet at the foot of the statue of Mary as a gesture of worship. I have seen this done at other RC weddings as well.

If this isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!


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## SueS

I attended the funeral mass of my dad three years ago. Surprisingly, when it came time to take communion it was open to all who wanted to participate. My son-in-law took part in it, believing it to be communion as he knew it (he's the son of our former pastor and should have known better!!). Sarah, my husband, and I stayed in our seats because we DID know.

It's interesting that, through my membership in the Civic Choir, I sang in two VERY expensive Catholic weddings - we're talking mega-bucks - for the same family. I was rather uncomfortable participating in the first one and a bit indignant that the congregation didn't have the class to stand when we sang the Hallelueia Chorus, but by the time we did the second wedding I was well on my way to becoming Reformed and was totally weirded out by it. Sarah and I both agreed that we'd never participate in another such event.


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## jaybird0827

Yes, it is worship idolatry.

Don't go there.


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## VictorBravo

SueS said:


> It's interesting that, through my membership in the Civic Choir, I sang in two VERY expensive Catholic weddings - we're talking mega-bucks - for the same family. I was rather uncomfortable participating in the first one and a bit indignant that the congregation didn't have the class to stand when we sang the Hallelueia Chorus, but by the time we did the second wedding I was well on my way to becoming Reformed and was totally weirded out by it. Sarah and I both agreed that we'd never participate in another such event.



Heh, we quit a Lutheran-sponsored choir when they started singing Masses instead of Bach and other good Protestant composers. A lot of other people did too (not necessarily from reformed churches, either) which was encouraging and surprising for our area.


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## historyb

A5pointer said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Ready - Fire - Aim!*
> 
> Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?
> 
> Would this one work:
> 
> Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
Click to expand...


I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I can tell you being lost in the RCC once the wafer is worshiped.


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## Galatians220

Daniel Ritchie said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.
Click to expand...

 


 *Sure do look like it!* I can almost smell the arsenic! (But Bawb's not as much of a threat to "Benny & the Jets" - the latter being the college of cardinals and the Swiss Guard - as _some_ of us are!)

Margaret

P. S. In a post way above, Randy stated my case eloquently: it's not a problem for him or for some others of you to attend a Catholic mass because you all don't have the history of having been caught in Catholicism as a child, knowing you have to escape and not being able to do so because, well, you're 7 years old and your parents won't let you. I do think I have some PTSD from the RCC; it makes me feel as though I'm turning my back on the Lord who delivered me from that. *My conscience simply doesn't permit it.* As an ex-gay should stay away from gay bars, so I won't go into a Catholic church. Not that I have any fears of being drawn back into it (truth be told, it's more likely that I'll grow another head than it is that I'll return to "Mother Rome") - it's just that it was the scene of my past forced and not-so-forced participation in blasphemy. Randy, if you're reading this, thank you for bringing up this angle above and stating it the way you did. 

http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&ref=12


----------



## Galatians220

SueS said:


> When this sister was married she placed a special bouquet at the foot of the statue of Mary as a gesture of worship. I have seen this done at other RC weddings as well.
> 
> If this isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!


 
I did the same thing at our wedding. My mother had done it at hers, and my grandmother at hers... In our neighborhood, for weddings at that particular church (10,000 members), the florists would just automatically prepare a "Mary's bouquet" for the bride to place on the Mary altar with all of the other wedding flowers. It wasn't an option; you just did it. 

Thankfully and _only by His grace_, the Lord has cast that horrible act of mine from His remembrance "as far as the east is from the west..." - and I am forgiven. I did it in ignorance and for "tradition's sake," but I should have hung tough to my real beliefs and not done it at all.

Thanks, SueS... And may God bless you for your witness.

Margaret


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Galatians220 said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sure do look like it!* I can almost smell the arsenic! (But Bawb's not as much of a threat to "Benny & the Jets" - the latter being the college of cardinals and the Swiss Guard - as _some_ of us are!)
> 
> Margaret
> 
> P. S. In a post way above, Randy stated my case eloquently: it's not a problem for him or for some others of you to attend a Catholic mass because you all don't have the history of having been caught in Catholicism as a child, knowing you have to escape and not being able to do so because, well, you're 7 years old and your parents won't let you. I do think I have some PTSD from the RCC; it makes me feel as though I'm turning my back on the Lord who delivered me from that. *My conscience simply doesn't permit it.* As an ex-gay should stay away from gay bars, so I won't go into a Catholic church. Not that I have any fears of being drawn back into it (truth be told, it's more likely that I'll grow another head than it is that I'll return to "Mother Rome") - it's just that it was the scene of my past forced and not-so-forced participation in blasphemy. Randy, if you're reading this, thank you for bringing up this angle above and stating it the way you did.
> 
> http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&ref=12
Click to expand...



I just wanna know if I can turn purple like the Pope and Bawb if I go drinkin with them. It looks Royal. 

And You are very welcome Margaret. Btw, I appreciate your witness For Christ's Crown and Covenant.


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## kvanlaan

Why, in the photo with Bob, does Joe have a warty/wrinkly left hand and a heck of a manicure on the other..... ??????

I am not implying any disingenuousness on Bob's part with regards to the photo. I just think there's more to Joe than meets the eye.


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## BobVigneault

I fixed that Randy. The web doesn't like CMYK jpegs.

Kevin, we've learned not to talk about the 'pretty' hand. I suggest you do the same if you wish to avoid a visit from the Swiss Guard. (Don't be fooled by their fruity pajama uniforms.


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## SueS

Actually, I thought that right hand looked rather feminine. Hmmmm.....is Joe hiding something from us???


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## Galatians220

kvanlaan said:


> Why, in the photo with Bob, does Joe have a warty/wrinkly left hand and a heck of a manicure on the other..... ??????
> 
> I am not implying any disingenuousness on Bob's part with regards to the photo. I just think there's more to Joe than meets the eye.


 
_"L'Affaire Bernard Cardinal Law"_ may be a stark indicator of Joe Ratzy's, oh, capacity for duplicity, among other things, so, yeah, there is more there than meets the (superficial) eye. 

Joseph Cardinal Bernardin (late archbishop of Chicago) was another piece of work to whom the Ratman was "more than kind."  *Yucky, yucky stuff...*  

Margaret


----------



## BobVigneault

I was eating pan pizza with the two Joe's at The Caravelle in Glenview, IL in 1975. Joey B said to Joey R, "Do you think we'll see priests getting married in our lifetime?"

Joey R replied, "No, not in ours but definitely in our children's."


----------



## Stephen

SueS said:


> We live near Steubenville, Ohio, the home of the (in)famous Franciscan University, a centre of old-style Catholicism and the place where the idea of Mary as co-redemptris originated. It's a very Catholic town.
> 
> This evening while out shopping, dh and I saw a young man sporting a sweatshirt with the words, "Mary, I belong to thee: All I have is thine"
> 
> I was forced into the RCC when my widowed dad remarried a Catholic. I remember the praying to statues and my stepmother informing me that the RCC was "the only church".
> 
> My half sister recently wrote to us speaking with joy about how her family engages in "Eucharistic adoration", which is something that is being promoted right now. It involves praying to the wafer in the belief that it is Jesus.
> 
> When this sister was married she placed a special bouquet at the foot of the statue of Mary as a gesture of worship. I have seen this done at other RC weddings as well.
> 
> If this isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!



Have you met Scott Hahn? He is one of Rome's newest apologists and a professor at Franciscan University. He is so full of himself that it is hard to listen to him, even if he was not spouting Papist heresy.


----------



## Neogillist

Although the popish mass is rather idolatrous, I think that some evangelical worship services nowadays have managed to exceed them in their idolatry. Just look at movements like Vineyards, where people start barking like dogs, quaking or speaking in tongues or jumping, dancing with flags; all of these things being done without any reverence whatsoever as if Jesus was their penpal. In a mass at least, there is some level of reverence given to worship. I personally define idolatry (and I think that fits the scriptural definition of it) to be any distorted/unscriptural notion of God. Thus singing any song which convey a false notion in regard to the nature of God is idolatry. The Israelites made themselves a golden calf desiring to portray God or "their gods" in a way that suited their carnal minds, and ultimately this is something that we can all be charged guilty of. Lacking reverence is worship is also idolatry like I said because it belittles God. Overall, the papists may be idolaters, but we are all idolaters to certain degrees and various ways; none of us can truly worship God perfectly or please Him in our worship apart from the satisfaction of Christ.


----------



## Stephen

Amazing Grace said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.
> 
> _*Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery*_
> 
> There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.
> 
> Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.
Click to expand...


Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.


----------



## Stephen

Galatians220 said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, in the photo with Bob, does Joe have a warty/wrinkly left hand and a heck of a manicure on the other..... ??????
> 
> I am not implying any disingenuousness on Bob's part with regards to the photo. I just think there's more to Joe than meets the eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"L'Affaire Bernard Cardinal Law"_ may be a stark indicator of Joe Ratzy's, oh, capacity for duplicity, among other things, so, yeah, there is more there than meets the (superficial) eye.
> 
> Joseph Cardinal Bernardin (late archbishop of Chicago) was another piece of work to whom the Ratman was "more than kind."  *Yucky, yucky stuff...*
> 
> Margaret
Click to expand...


Yes, Rome historically is good at covering up the sins of its clergy. It is an evil and false system because it is false religion.


----------



## Stephen

Neogillist said:


> Although the popish mass is rather idolatrous, I think that some evangelical worship services nowadays have managed to exceed them in their idolatry. Just look at movements like Vineyards, where people start barking like dogs, quaking or speaking in tongues or jumping, dancing with flags; all of these things being done without any reverence whatsoever as if Jesus was their penpal. In a mass at least, there is some level of reverence given to worship. I personally define idolatry (and I think that fits the scriptural definition of it) to be any distorted/unscriptural notion of God. Thus singing any song which convey a false notion in regard to the nature of God is idolatry. The Israelites made themselves a golden calf desiring to portray God or "their gods" in a way that suited their carnal minds, and ultimately this is something that we can all be charged guilty of. Lacking reverence is worship is also idolatry like I said because it belittles God. Overall, the papists may be idolaters, but we are all idolaters to certain degrees and various ways; none of us can truly worship God perfectly or please Him in our worship apart from the satisfaction of Christ.




Yes, we must remember that the Reformers were opposing the idolatry of Rome, because of the time in which they lived. If they saw the idolatry that calls itself worship in so-called evangelical churches today, they would condemn it. If we claim to be Protestants we should be reforming the church today of its idolatry, especially the rubish that occurs in some PCA churches.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Stephen said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.
> 
> _*Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery*_
> 
> There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.
> 
> Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.
Click to expand...




Where was I in error Stephen? Explain to me the history of where I veered off into some american revisionism? I meant no harm to Daniel, and since he did not reply, I thought I was spot on. Does Nova Scotia have a better rendering of Irelands history? 

Perhpas Daniel, who lives there can give us the correct version..


----------



## NaphtaliPress

*This ends now. *



Amazing Grace said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.
> 
> _*Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery*_
> 
> There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.
> 
> Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where was I in error Stephen? Explain to me the history of where I veered off into some american revisionism? I meant no harm to Daniel, and since he did not reply, I thought I was spot on. Does Nova Scotia have a better rendering of Irelands history?
> 
> Perhpas Daniel, who lives there can give us the correct version..
Click to expand...


----------

