# Cessation of gifts info



## PresbyDane (May 31, 2009)

I need information please

I would like chapter and verses for the cassation argument, maybe what you would consider the top 3 if you do not want to write an entire essay.
But if you want to write an essay please feel free


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## Scott1 (May 31, 2009)

This is a PCA "Pastoral Letter" on this topic generally. It doesn't address every aspect of your thread question, but may be helpful in understanding it:

PCA Historical Center: PCA Pastoral Letter on the Expeience of the Holy Spirit in the Church Today


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## Wannabee (May 31, 2009)

1 Corinthians 13 - 14.

Acts 2:4, 11; 10:46; 19:6


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## PresbyDane (May 31, 2009)

Well all the verses in acts just talks about people getting the spirit and as I have always heard 1 Cor it was that the gifts will end when all things are perfect = Heaven (Jesus comes and gets all of us)

Do you have some enlightening comments to this, this being the only version I have known I need more info.


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## Scott1 (May 31, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> Well all the verses in acts just talks about people getting the spirit and as I have always heard 1 Cor it was that the gifts will end when all things are perfect = Heaven (Jesus comes and gets all of us)
> 
> Do you have some enlightening comments to this, this being the only version I have known I need more info.



Usually, this revolves around the nature and purpose of [the two or three] gifts that usually underlie this general inquiry. Often, what is meant is not have miraculous gifts ceased, but whether "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" and maybe "prophecy" continue and in what way.

If that is what you are looking for, this is not a complete answer because it's a big topic, but often it is about,

Does new revelation [of God], assumed to be equal or above that of Scripture, exist outside of Scripture?

Reformed theology would say the Word represents that completed revelation to us today because the doctrine is that of the foundation of our faith laid by the prophets and apostles "once delivered unto the saints." 

A corollary would be that the special revelation of God is ordinarily done through His Word (not by extant pronouncements, etc.), the ordinary means of grace.


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## rbcbob (May 31, 2009)

Martin,
This will have to be brief. I have dealt with the interpretation of 1Cor 13:8-12 many times in our church but the material is too much to retype here and I have yet not learned how to copy material into these posts.

1 cor 13:8
*love never fails* *ekpipto* that is it never _falls out of _ or _down from_
*prophecies fail* *katargew* that is, they shall be reduced to inactivity
*tongues* *pauw* _shall cease, leave off_
*knowledge* shall also *katargew* be reduced to inactivity.

Knowledge (the supernatural gift of knowing what you did not learn), Prophecies (the supernatural gift of direct revelation from God), and Tongues (the supernatural gift of speaking gospel truth in a language you did not learn) were all *Revelatory gifts* and ceased with the completion of the New Testament canon.

1 Cor 13:9
The collective knowledge and of the First century Church and the preaching material of the that Church was *ek merous gar* _that is_ it was out of that which was partial and incomplete.

That condition was soon to be altered.

1 Cor 13:10
When _that which is perfect_ *to teleion* has come then that which is partial will be done away.

The phrase _that which is perfect_ is neuter in the Greek. When the _perfect thing_ has come.

This is a very condensed overview of the passage and there is so much more to be said on it.

The earliest scholar to suggest this interpretation as far as I know is Jonathan Edwards. An excellent modern book on the subject is _The Charismatics and the Word of God_ by Victor Budgen.

I hope this helps.


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## Oecolampadius (May 31, 2009)

Here is an excellent paper written by Richard Gaffin on this very subject:

Challenges of the Charismatic Movement to the Reformed Tradition

Also, I have two audio lectures (mp3) also by Richard Gaffin on this topic and I will send them to anyone who will PM me their email.


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## OPC'n (May 31, 2009)

I also think that it is clear that we do not have the power of the Holy Spirit in outward signs (miracles, speaking in tongues, prophesying, seeing visions) like they did during the apostle's time. I think the people during this time table differed from OT saints and from NT saints after the apostle's time only in outward signs of the Holy Spirit's power.


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## Wannabee (May 31, 2009)

Martin,

I tossed you a bone so you could look through it and come up with your own conclusions. Also, I only had a few minutes. But the Acts passages have a common thread - in each case a new people group is being confirmed by the Holy Spirit. In the Corinthian passages it is clear that love is first. Part of the fallout is that we will not pursue that which draws attention to ourselves. *IF* we were to speak in tongues it would need to be in such a way that attention is focused on Christ, rather than ourselves. For instance, if I were preaching and someone who only understands French heard the message clearly then obviously something dramatic happened. He would think I spoke in French. I would think he understood English. Whether God changed the words as they passed through the air or made the man understand somewhere between his eardrums and brain is of no consequence. The Gospel was proclaimed.
I don't think that there are tongues today. Tongues are spoken languages. But I also don't think that Scripture specifically says that tongues have ceased. I perceive the "perfect" as the return of Christ. I do think in the absence of written revelation, that these things are possible. But I have no clear credible evidence that they have, so will not die on that hill. Also, I don't think people are given these gifts at all. If they were then they should be able to exercise them at will. Rather, if anything like this did happen I would see it as wholly the work of God and the men He worked through as inconsequential, other than their faithfulness. Simply put, if it happened I would simply see it as a manifestation of the Spirit.
Part of the problem is that it is easy to fear charismania, for good reason. But this causes us to swing the pendulum beyond what Scripture says in order to distance ourselves from their sensationalism. This is a human propensity in many aspects of our theology. Scripture is not clear on whether or not the gifts are done. But Scott and Bob both have very good and credible responses.

I hope that helps some.


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## ExGentibus (Jun 1, 2009)

I think the cessation of special gifts is a complex topic that cannot be settled by pointing two or three verses. I am afraid it does require an essay. I will try to give just a few points that might be useful.

1st. We need to identify and list the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in the NT. They are listed in Mark 16.17-18 and 1 Cor. 12.7-11:
- casting out demons
- speaking new tongues
- the ability to pick up serpents
- immunity to poisons
- healing the sick
- utterance of wisdom
- utterance of knowledge
- special faith
- working of miracles
- prophecy
- the ability to distinguish between spirits
- interpretation of tongues

2nd. Who did receive those gifts and in what measure? Did all believers without exception receive all the gifts, or did each believer receive at least one gift, or only some believers received some gifts? 1 Cor. 12.28-30 answers the latter. To answer the former, we need to compare all the instances in Acts that talk about the gift of the Spirit, tongues and healing. The special gifts were given to the Apostles and those ordained by the Apostles: Acts 2.1-13; 3.1-8; 8.14-17: 9.32-34, 40-41; 10:44-46; 19.6; etc. It is important to observe what is said in Acts 8.14 "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John." They had to send two apostles in Samaria so that those new believers could receive the Holy Spirit. The special gifts are always connected with the Apostles, either when one or more of the twelve were present, or when there was a believer who had received those gifts from them by imposition of the hands. In the NT, the special gifts are called the "signs of the apostles": Mt. 10.1-2; Mark 16.20; Acts 2.43; 14.3; 2 Cor. 12.12; Heb. 2.3-4. 

3rd. What was the purpose of miracles, tongues, healing? It was to attest the divine or God-given authority of the messengers: Ex. 4.5; John 3.2; 9.30-33; 10.25; Mt. 9.6; 14.33; Acts 2.22; 3.11; 5.13; 9.35, 42.

4th. When discussing with charismatics, it may be necessary to define the office of Apostle and show why there cannot be new apostles today.

5th. The apostles and the NT prophets are said to lay the foundation of the household of God (Eph. 2.20). This foundation could only be set once: Rom. 15.20; 1 Cor. 3.10-12; 2 Tim. 2.19.


These are, as far as I understand, the basic points that associate the special gifts unequivocally with the apostolic office and era, which ceased with the death of the last apostle. As John writes in the last two verses of his gospel, we now have the written revelation so we know that those things are true.
John 21.24-25 "This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."


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## eqdj (Jun 1, 2009)

Martin,

When looking at this issue most people take the topical/Systematic approach. I prefer the "progressive revelation" approach.

Here are the posts I've written so far:

Spiritual Gifts: Judea, Samaria, Ends of the Earth (Before 45 A.D.) 
The Spirit in Early Acts, James

Spiritual Gifts: Foundational Generation (45 A.D. - 60 A.D.) I
The Spirit in Late Acts and Early Paul

Spiritual Gifts: Foundational Generation (45 A.D. - 60 A.D.) II
The Spirit in Corinth and Mark

Spiritual Gifts: The Next Generation (After 60 A.D.)
The Spirit in Late Paul, Peter, Luke, Jude, Hebrews, Matthew, and John

If we view the charismata this way, we see the gifts burst on the scene, then slowly fade away. In 1 Corinthians Paul writes about the gifts in chapters 12-14. In these chapters he references those who are "ungifted" and are not "unbelievers". Eventually Paul, who once was able to raise the dead, fails to heal himself, Timothy, and Trophimus. Finally, in Hebrews 2:1-4 (written to second generation Christians), we have a verse that states both the purpose and cessation of gifts. Referencing the foundational generation, the writer says the gospel "was confirmed to THOSE who heard, God testifying to THEM by...." 

I plan on writing a summary later this week.

Hope this helps.


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## reformedminister (Jun 1, 2009)

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is usually used to teach that sign gifts have ceased, usually pointing to the Bible as being "that which is perfect is come" (v. 10). Many Reformed scholars would disagree with this, including R. C. Sproul. "That which is perfect" is in reference to the eternal age. There is no Scripture that teaches that sign gifts will cease. However, it is commonly held that they were important in the apostolic age, for the spreading of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. The sign gifts authenticated the apostolic message, as well as the apostles.


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## Scott1 (Jun 1, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is usually used to teach that sign gifts have ceased, usually pointing to the Bible as being "that which is perfect is come" (v. 10). Many Reformed scholars would disagree with this, including R. C. Sproul. "That which is perfect" is in reference to the eternal age. There is no Scripture that teaches that sign gifts will cease. However, it is commonly held that they were important in the apostolic age, for the spreading of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. The sign gifts authenticated the apostolic message, as well as the apostles.



Yes, the first part is fair to point out regarding I Corinthians 13:8-13 and it's reformed interpretation.

But, as I understand it, the questions really are:

1) Is there new [special] revelation in light of the completed canon of Scripture (the doctrine laid down 'once and for all' by the prophets and apostles)? 

(using 'special revelation' in the sense Dr. Sproul does to distinguish between natural and special revelation)

and

2) What is the purpose of these (two or three) spiritual gifts in light of the completion of God's Word?

Charismatics/pentecostals implicitly or explicitly teach or practice that there is equivalent or superior 'revelation' to Scripture and focus on two or three spiritual gifts to derive it (and that's where they are wrong biblically and why such disorder results).


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## AThornquist (Jun 1, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is usually used to teach that sign gifts have ceased, usually pointing to the Bible as being "that which is perfect is come" (v. 10). Many Reformed scholars would disagree with this, including R. C. Sproul. "That which is perfect" is in reference to the eternal age. There is no Scripture that teaches that sign gifts will cease. However, it is commonly held that they were important in the apostolic age, for the spreading of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. The sign gifts authenticated the apostolic message, as well as the apostles.




So then, did all of the non-apostles who had "miraculous" gifts of the Spirit have them to authenticate and further the apostolic message? That seems to be my understanding. Their particular gifts weren't used to authenticate the apostles, though (the apostles had signs and wonder for their own authentication). 
I don't believe that 1 Cor. 13:8-13 is speaking of certain gifts ceasing when the canon is closed. It just isn't clear. I theoretically could choose one view point or another to further my own beliefs, but from the text alone I don't see a "perfect" answer. I wasn't aware that some Reformed scholars also saw the text pointing to the eternal age.


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## rbcbob (Jun 1, 2009)

This was posted a year or two ago on one of the sites that I check occasionaly.


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## rbcbob (Jun 5, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is usually used to teach that sign gifts have ceased, usually pointing to the Bible as being "that which is perfect is come" (v. 10). Many Reformed scholars would disagree with this, including R. C. Sproul. *"That which is perfect" is in reference to the eternal age. There is no Scripture that teaches that sign gifts will cease. *However, it is commonly held that they were important in the apostolic age, for the spreading of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. The sign gifts authenticated the apostolic message, as well as the apostles.



I respectfully disagree. I believe that the passage, contextually, grammatically, and theologically does say that the *the perfect thing* which Paul has in mind is in fact the completed canon of the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
The context of this passage is that concerning the ignorance of the Christians in the church at Corinth regarding the relationship between gifts and graces. Paul reminds them that they can have extraordinary, phenomenal gifts and yet be destitute of love and thus be lost in their sins (vss. 1-3).
“*He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.*” ( 1 John 4:8)

Paul states at the end of the chapter in verse 13 that “love is the greatest”. Why is love the greatest? *Because love never fails*. Love will accompany you all the way into the eternal state. Not so with all the flashy phenomenal gifts that they were desiring.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 
1 Corinthians 13: 8 ~H avga,ph ouvde,pote evkpi,pteiÅ ei;te de. profhtei/ai katarghqh,sontai\ ei;te glw/ssai pau,sontai\ ei;te gnw/sij katarghqh,setai 

Verse eight contains a triad __ prophecy, tongues, and knowledge __ which are contrasted with another triad in verse thirteen __ faith, hope, and love. The second triad consists of things that remain, whereas the first triad consists of things that cease, fail, or vanish away.

With what are faith, hope, and love contrasted? They are contrasted with prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. It should be apparent that if we make both of these triads continue throughout this present age until Christ returns *then the apostle’s intended contrast is destroyed*!
Paul says that love never fails [ evkpi,ptw ] the word means to fall down from or out of. So the meaning is that Love will never fall from its exalted position.
•	But prophecies (the extraordinary gift) shall be katarge,w “reduced to inactivity”.
•	Tongues shall pau,w “stop, cease, leave off”. Compare the use of the word in Heb. 10:2 and in 1Pet 4:1.
•	Knowledge likewise shall be katarge,w “reduced to inactivity”. In this context just what knowledge is Paul talking about? Not spiritual and divine knowledge in general for surely there will be such knowledge hereafter in heaven as well as now on earth, and vastly more … knowledge of God, Christ, and spiritual things shall not vanish away but shall gloriously increase. By the phrase ‘knowledge shall pass away’ is meant a particular miraculous gift (see 1Cor 12:8) that was in operation in the Church of God in those days.

This knowledge was a Revelatory gift, i.e. it involved revealing directly to the possessor of the gift the mind and will of God. This is evidenced by its association with prophecy and tongues.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 
9 evk me,rouj ga,r ginw,skomen kai. evk me,rouj profhteu,omen

Paul says that we know, literally “we are presently knowing” evk me,rouj “out of that which is partial” or “out of a portion of the whole.” Knowledge and prophecy were then coming forth in the period of Partial Revelation as contrasted with Completed Revelation as is seen in the following verses.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 
10 o[tan de. e;lqh| to. te,leion to,te to. evk me,rouj katarghqh,setai 

“But” says Paul by way of contrast “when comes _that which is perfect_ …” . This phrase to. te,leion that which is perfect is pivotal to the interpretation of the passage. The two Greek words are Neuter in gender and should be rendered _the perfect thing_. Whatever Paul had in mind when he wrote to. te,leion it was, in its grammatical identity something neuter. If he had in mind Christ he would no doubt have written the *masculine* o` te,leioj *He who is perfect* . If what he was referring to was Christ’s return he would have written the *feminine* h` telei,a as in the feminine th/| parousi,a| “the coming of our Lord” (1Thess 5:23). Whatever Paul *did* have in mind he alludes to it with the neuter to. te,leion *that perfect thing*.
So what is that perfect thing? The meaning of to. te,leion is _that which is brought to its end; finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect._

Again the question comes: what is that perfect, that completed thing that the apostle was pointing to? It must be something apposite and juxtaposed to *that which is partial* mentioned in the previous verse. It is Revelatory, and since the category of the partial is Revelation then the category of the *complete* must be Revelation.
That Perfect Thing is the completed, inscripturated Revelation; the finished Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 
11 o[te h;mhn nh,pioj w`j nh,pioj evla,loun w`j nh,pioj evfro,noun w`j nh,pioj\ evlogizo,mhn o[te de, ge,gona avnh,r kath,rghka ta. tou/ nhpi,ou 
Paul here, by way of illustration, administers a rebuke to the Corinthians. They have been behaving childishly in regard to the Extraordinary Gifts in general and Speaking in Tongues in particular. He illustrates this by saying that when he was a child he spoke, understood, and thought as a child, i.e. *childlishly*!

When however, “*he became* ge,gona [perfect tense] *a man* ” avnh,r that is, he completely entered manhood, he remained a man and did not return to childhood. He put away childish things. So too he is telling the Corinthians that the Church would one day reach Revelatory maturity and never return to childhood again.

It is a sign of spiritual childishness to want to go back to the time of the Church’s childishness. The time of the church’s childishness was the time of the *extraordinary phenomenal gifts*!

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 
12 ble,pomen ga.r a;rti di evso,ptrou evn aivni,gmati to,te de. pro,swpon pro.j pro,swpon\ a;rti ginw,skw evk me,rouj to,te de. evpignw,somai kaqw.j kai. evpegnw,sqhn 

Paul gives explanation here saying “For” or “*Because*” “*we see now*, at this present time, by means of a *mirror* [e;soptron _ a piece of highly polished metal ] *dimly* { aivni,gmati literally, in an enigma, indistinctly}…

Paul’s point is that in their day the Corinthians, along with all other believers, had an uncompleted Bible; a partially polished metal shield in which they could dimly behold themselves. James had already taken up the imagery of a *mirror* in reference to the Word of God saying in chapter One and verse Twenty-three of his epistle “For if anyone is a hearer of *the word* and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror e;soptron .

Paul again takes up this same imagery, although he employs a synonym of e;soptron in his second epistle to this same Corinthian church saying:

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a *mirror* the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So here in (13:12) Paul is showing them that in this era of partially completed revelation they see things dimly; they know things out of a part of an as yet uncompleted whole. But he points this out in order to bring out the contrast. This partiality and dimness have continued up to their present time, but….
[
B]Contrast relative to Time[/B]
“but then …” to,te *When?* When that perfect thing i.e. the completed Scriptures have come. The Corinthians were seeing in their Hebrew bibles dimly, but then to,te face to face pro,swpon pro.j pro,swpon

*Contrast relative to Quality*
“face to face” *How?* Clearly as contrasted with dimly.
This phrase “*face to face*” has been popularly interpreted to mean the beholding God by the saints in glory. But the phrase as used in Scripture never refers to that glorious event. Rather the biblical usage consistently refers to the clear propositional revelation of the Word of God as contrasted with the less clear revelation of visions and dreams.

Numbers 12:6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. 7 Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. 8 *I speak with him face to face,* Even plainly, *and not in dark sayings*; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?"
See also __ Exodus 33:9-11, 18-23; Deuteronomy 5:1-4

Thus Paul tells the Corinthians that *then*, when that perfect, completed thing has come their knowing shall no longer be dim but shall possess the precision that comes from the clear propositional revelation of God’s Word inscripturated and preserved to the Church to the end of the age.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
13 nuni. de. me,nei pi,stij evlpi,j avga,ph ta. tri,a tau/ta\ mei,zwn de. tou,twn h` avga,ph

Even though the phenomenal gifts of *prophecy* (direct revelation from God), *tongues* (languages known without being learned), and *knowledge* (intelligence never acquired by study) would not continue to abide in the Church throughout this age, and at the end of the age faith becomes sight (2Cor 5:6-7) and hope becomes fulfillment (Rom 8:22-25), nevertheless *Love* continues throughout eternity.


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## Whitefield (Jun 22, 2009)

I just posted to my webpage:

Counterfeit Miracles by B.B. Warfield. Chapter one deals with the cessation of the charismata.


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