# When did the Catholic Church begin to hide the 2nd commandment?



## Pergamum (Mar 20, 2017)

The Catholic and Protestant versions of the 10 Commandments differ. 

*Catholic*

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
Honor thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

It seems blatantly devious to hide the "no graven images" command in the first and then expand the 10th to become two commandments of no coveting. 

So when did this begin? How did the ancient church divide the commandments?


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## Edward (Mar 20, 2017)

Let's deal fairly and honestly when it comes to Papists.



Pergamum said:


> The Catholic and Protestant versions of the 10 Commandments differ.
> 
> *Catholic*
> 
> ...



What the Romans really say:



> *Article 1*
> 
> *THE FIRST COMMANDMENT*
> 
> ...



http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7B.HTM
(footnotes omitted, emphasis supplied).

edit: not suggesting that you are being dishonest, but perhaps you have yielded to a source which is.


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## Pergamum (Mar 20, 2017)

They still tuck it into the first commandment. When did this tucking (hiding) occur.


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## hammondjones (Mar 20, 2017)

That's probably a little harsh; this is also the Lutheran numbering. I believe it has been a matter of discussion in the Church. See Origen's homily on Exodus



> (2) The first commandment, therefore, is "You shall not have other gods besides me."11 And after this follows: "You shall not make for yourself an idol nor any likeness of anything which is in heaven above or in the earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall neither adore nor worship them. For I am the Lord your God, ajealous God who avenges the sins of the fathers on the sons to the third and fourth generation for those who hate me, and shows mercy to thousands for those who love me and who keep my commandments."12 *Some think that all these words together are one commandment.* But if it be thus supposed, the number ten of the commandments will not be completed-and where now will be the truth of the Decalogue? But if it be divided in that manner in which we also separated it in the preceding reading, the whole number of ten commandments will appear. The first commandment, therefore, is: "You shall not have other gods besides me."13 The second is: "You shall not make for yourself an idol nor any likeness" etc. 14


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## Edm (Mar 20, 2017)

A Little off topic...last week my wife was shopping so my sons ages 15 and 10 started browsing a bookstore in the strip mall. Turns out it was a Catholic book store. We walked in and my 15 yo stated rather loudly " good grief...this whole store is a blatant 2nd commandment violation!" I think we were looked at rather strangely after that...

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## arapahoepark (Mar 20, 2017)

Edm said:


> A Little off topic...last week my wife was shopping so my sons ages 15 and 10 started browsing a bookstore in the strip mall. Turns out it was a Catholic book store. We walked in and my 15 yo stated rather loudly " good grief...this whole store is a blatant 2nd commandment violation!" I think we were looked at rather strangely after that...


So they were all taking the Lord's name in vain???

Reactions: Funny 1


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## joebonni63 (Mar 21, 2017)

This is a little different but try it out.......... I think it was the Second Council of Nicea where they said it was ok to have statues for teaching but not worship. This was do to most people not able to read at this point so they had to listen and they would point to a statue for there memory. As time goes by you see it has become kinda strange but none the less I know of a couple RCC that still practice this like it was at their beginning. Is it right I don't know...... I think God was worried about people making new gods and then build a religion around that cause you see that over and over in the OT which in a way is sad. So the choice is yours if you don't like it that's cool if you do that's cool. Look how Jesus explained the law and how He blew the doors off everyone to the point where they wanted to kill Him.


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## Pergamum (Mar 21, 2017)

Do we have any numbered lists of the 10 commandments in the ancient church so that we can see how they divided the Decalogue?


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## timfost (Mar 21, 2017)

I know that Augustine divided the first table in three, pointing out significance in relation to the Trinity. Luther simply kept the same classification. I'm not sure how long before Augustine this was promoted.


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## TheOldCourse (Mar 21, 2017)

Wikipedia is a poor source for most things, but they do have a helpful chart regarding the 10 commandment numberings here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Traditions_for_numbering

The Reformed numbering generally follows the Septuagint


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## jwithnell (Mar 21, 2017)

We have the Hebrew rendering that places the first word at redemption (what we would tend to call the prologue) then follows with other instructions enumerating how we may glorify God and what duties are required of man.

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## brendanchatt (Mar 21, 2017)

The OP's summarizing points are helpful because that's often how commandments/principles are referenced in every day speech. Tagging the phrase to the end of the first kind of helps it ... disappear ...


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## Edward (Mar 22, 2017)

brendanchatt said:


> Tagging the phrase to the end of the first kind of helps it ... disappear ...



Omitting it completely makes it disappear even more quickly. There is plenty that we can use to attack Rome. We just need to take care to be fair and accurate when doing so. After all, a lot of us around here subscribe the WLC 144 and 145.

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## TheologiaCrucis (Mar 23, 2017)

Eneumerating the prologue, "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..." as the first in the Hebraic tradition is probably the most accurate followed by the Catholic/Lutheran eneumeration but combining the last two as the Reformed do. The word often translated as "commandment" is "dabar," which is simply a word or a thing... the ten principles or words is probably better than "commandment," strictly speaking. And the whole point about graven images in the Sinai narrative is precisely an issue with misunderstanding who the Lord was who brought them out of Egypt and that which followed, "you shall have no other gods...". Remember when Aaron elevated the golden calf what he said... "behold the God who brought you out of the land of Egypt."


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 24, 2017)

TheologiaCrucis said:


> And the whole point about graven images in the Sinai narrative is precisely an issue with misunderstanding who the Lord was who brought them out of Egypt and that which followed, "you shall have no other gods...". Remember when Aaron elevated the golden calf what he said... "behold the God who brought you out of the land of Egypt."


That's perhaps consistent with the Lutheran understanding of the matter, but it is misleading analysis from the Reformed perspective; and it seems to soft-pedal the base issue regarding the golden calf. It was not misunderstanding that swept the people away, but rebellion; which Aaron dressed up in false and comfortable worship.

The substance of the 2nd commandment (as we number them) addresses the distinct and highly significant question of the proper worship of the true God. Proper worship of the true God is as vital a question as elimination of all rivals to the one true God. This commandment is the cornerstone of the Reformed or Regulative principle of worship.

God is not to be worshipped except by those means which he has himself authorized. He may not be worshipped "sincerely" under any pretended zeal. The Reformed deny: that God may be worshipped by any means, provided it does not cross a specific prohibition. But, we must do all that God requires, and only that which is required; for this is his pleasure.

The pains God took with his worship in the case of national Israel dominates the Torah. "And look that thou make them after their *pattern*, which was shewed thee in the mount," Ex.25:40. The latter half of Exodus, the entire book of Leviticus, are focused on the Tabernacle institution, and those who ministered in it. Lev.10 tells the tale of the "strange fire" which was offered on the altar, which God punished by swift and merciless judgment. Why? The Lord had not commanded it, v1.

Dt.12:29-32, "When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. *What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it*."

Jer.7:31, "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which *I commanded them not*, neither came it into my heart." Note the terms by which the idolaters of Judah are condemned: yes, they were not to be idolaters, and so were guilty of the first commandment. But this form of worship (so contrary to nature, indeed) was never to be indulged _because it had not been commanded them of God! _It had no positive warrant, and never would have had it since it never even entered the heart of God.

Being the moral law, and not confined to the limits of the Sinai administration--the law written on the heart since creation--the strictures on worshipping God only on his designated terms continue, so far as the Reformed confess,see WCF 21:1. We often argue over where those limits lie; but except for those who ignore or are ignorant of this point, we agree that God has charged a peculiar propriety with respect to his worship.

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