# Hardshell baptists denying justification by faith



## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

> Justification by Christ's blood and a justification by believing in Christ's blood, are clearly not the same. How can a faith in your ransom accomplish more than the payment of that ransom which sets you free?



I am once again in discussion with several Primitive (Hardshell) baptists who don't seem to grasp the distinction between faith being an "instrumental cause" of our justification, joining us to Christ and faith being a "meritorious cause" (i.e. producing faith in our own strength such that God justifies us because of it...thus making faith into a work). 

They charge me with "works salvation" and say I do not believe in salvation "wholly" by grace because I speak of the ordinary means of the instrumentality of the Spirit working through the Word of God and that faith is what unites us to Christ. When I state, "Though faith is a gift, we believe...God does not believe for us"....they make me out to be a wholesale Arminian.

Any advice on how to deal with these? Anyone experienced with Primitive Baptists here?


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

> Isa. 45:25 and 53:11 God said Christ would justify the many [....not that our FAITH would justify many]
> 
> Isa. 45:25 "In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
> 
> ...



I have quoted Romans 4 to them (Abraham's faith), but he rejects that this proves justification by/through faith.


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

> I like how William Kiffen put it "That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence, Heb. 11:1, 2." However, I would say that him saying "under no other consideration" would be amiss because it speaks of the "faith of Christ". So if he means "no other consideration" as it pertains to man, then I agree.



In other words, "justification by faith" must mean "justification by the faith of Christ" - i.e., he doesn't believe that our faith justifies us. For this would mean works-righteousness (faith being that work).


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## BGF (Jan 20, 2015)

On another thread I asked you to define Hardshell Baptists. You've done do here, so thanks. I've never heard Primitive Baptists called Hardshelled.


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

> Therefore being justified....by faith we have peace with God



Here is this man's take on Romans 5:1.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 20, 2015)

Berkhof:



> 1. JUSTIFICATION FROM ETERNITY. The Antinomians held that the justification of the sinner took place in eternity, or in the resurrection of Christ. They either confounded it with the eternal decree of election, or with the objective justification of Christ when He was raised from the dead. They did not properly distinguish between the divine purpose in eternity and its execution in time, nor between the work of Christ in procuring, and that of the Holy Spirit in applying the blessings of redemption. According to this position we are justified even before we believe, though we are unconscious of it, and faith simply conveys to us the declaration of this fact. Moreover, the fact that our sins were imputed to Christ made Him personally a sinner, and the imputation of His righteousness to us makes us personally righteous, so that God can see no sin in believers at all. Some Reformed theologians also speak of justification from eternity, but at the same time refuse to subscribe to the Antinomian construction of this doctrine. The grounds on which they believe in justification from eternity deserve brief consideration.
> 
> a. Grounds for the doctrine of justification from eternity.
> (1) Scripture speaks of a grace or mercy of God which is from everlasting, Ps. 25:6; 103:17. Now all grace or mercy that is from eternity must have as its judicial or legal basis a justification that is from eternity. But in answer to this it may be said that there are eternal mercies and lovingkindnesses of God which are not based on any justification of the sinner, as, for instance, His plan of redemption, the gift of His Son, and the willing suretyship of Christ in the pactum salutis.
> ...


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## arapahoepark (Jan 20, 2015)

Look for the free pdf of Vindication of Imputation by DA Carson. In it he argues for imputation and an instrumental faith over against Gundry who holds an Arminian view similar to the one your baptist friends espouse.


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

Thanks! Just what the doctor ordered!



Semper Fidelis said:


> Berkhof:
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> 
> 
> ...


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

arap said:


> Look for the free pdf of Vindication of Imputation by DA Carson. In it he argues for imputation and an instrumental faith over against Gundry who holds an Arminian view similar to the one your baptist friends espouse.



Thanks! Searching now.


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## Nomad (Jan 21, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> > Justification by Christ's blood and a justification by believing in Christ's blood, are clearly not the same. How can a faith in your ransom accomplish more than the payment of that ransom which sets you free?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sounds like an encounter I had with the admin, Brandon Kraft, at the Predestinarian Network forum. My advice would be to study the issues in question so that you know what you believe and why. As far as dealing with these "hardshellers" I usually just state my case, answer a few objections, and then let it go for the sake of my own sanity. Going around in circles accomplishes nothing.


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## Pergamum (Jan 22, 2015)

James,

Yes, I am dealing with those of his tribe or ilk.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 22, 2015)

These are always interesting sorts of folk. There are others than Primitive Baptists who have the mistaken notion that faith is Christ's faith, because if it's our faith in any sense, then faith is rendered a work and salvation by grace alone is denied.

I always talk with such about a biblical definition of saving faith (knowledge, assent, and trust). As to the last element especially, I emphasize that Christ is the object of our faith and faith involves knowing and believing the truth of the gospel and believing and entrusting ourselves to Him. The point is that faith involves our coming to Christ, leaning on Christ, receiving Christ, trusting Christ. If our faith is Christ's faith, then Christ is believing in Himself for us? Christ in us is believing for us in Himself? This is neither what the Bible teaches nor is it coherent. 

And as for repentance (which no one can deny that the Bible teaches always accompanies saving faith), is Jesus repenting for us? Of what is He repenting? Our sin that He did not commit? Again, the notion that faith is not our believing and trusting and that repentance is not our seeing and hating our sin with an endeavor after new obedience is simply nonsense and finds no biblical support. To be sure, the Holy Spirit works faith and repentance in the elect, but when He does, we are the ones who are trusting Christ and repenting of our sin. Christ does not need to trust Himself savingly and He certainly has no sin of which to repent. 

There was someone (a minister, in fact, and not a Baptist one) who taught this some years back and it turns out that he was using this as a cloak for maliciousness, engaging in heinous sin with which he was not dealing and for which he was not taking responsibility. This sort of antinomianism is not only a serious error but often used as such a cloak, not always for sins so heinous but just for dealing with the sins that all of us need regularly to deal with as Christians. 

Peace,
Alan


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## fralo4truth (Jan 24, 2015)

Perg,

Why not refer these folks to my blog which is devoted to refuting their cultic teachings? You can tell them I'm newly deliveried from their heretical notions. As you know I was one of them for about ten years before the Lord saw fit to rescue me from this cult.

You should not be surprised that they are confused about justification. Ever since they began to reject the gospel means pattern of salvation in the late 1800s they have had to come up with unorthodox stands on the doctrines which involve the gifts of the gospel. Hence, they deny that faith or justification by faith is necessary to be eternally saved. To the Hardshells salvation by grace means that there is absolutely no action required by man to be saved. He doesn't have to repent, believe, or practice holiness. He can be a heathen or some outright idolator having no faith in Christ, and yet be saved!!!

One thing you can challenge them on is this. Ask them to cite the name of one living breathing soul prior to 1850 who believes as they do. They will not be able to do so. Their claim to being Primitive is a misnomer, for they are no such thing. They are a new sect who began in the early 1800s being opposed to the modern missionary movement. Over the next several decades they slowly developed their own theology in order to justify their opposition to missions.


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## Pergamum (Jan 24, 2015)

Thanks Kevin. I am coming to you for all my Hardshelll queries!


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## C. M. Sheffield (Jan 24, 2015)

BGF said:


> I've never heard Primitive Baptists called Hardshelled.



In southeast Georgia, the term "Hardshell" is more common than "Primitive." At least it was when I was growing up. I was nearly grown before I heard them referred to as "primitive baptists."


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## whirlingmerc (Jan 24, 2015)

I don't remmember running into this in New York

If we look at the example of Abraham believing as Isaiah instructs those who long for righteousness to examine... we see Abraham had a personal faiith, he blieved and was counted rightous


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## Mushroom (Jan 24, 2015)

There was one of their Churches where I used to live, always wondered if they were Fred Flintstone types... 

There's a new one starting nearby. My question to them would be why even have a Church? Seems like a lot of unnecessary expense.


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