# Disciplining a non member



## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Hello, there is a man that goes to my church who comes to service every so often for a few years now as well as the Bible study. This man has been living with an unbeliever for the same time he has been attending this church and now has kids by her. This person claims to be a believer so I wanted to know everyone's thoughts ons discipline. Should discipline be practiced with only members of the church? Any input would be appreciated. Thankyou


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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

And he has been rebuked and still proffeses to be a Christian after being rebuked by the elders and pastor for this sin.


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## Taylor (Apr 25, 2021)

The OPC the Book of Church Order states, "Ecclesiastical discipline is the exercise of that authority which the Lord Jesus Christ has committed to _the visible church_ for the preservation of its purity, peace, and good order," and, "All _members of the church_, both communicants and those who are members by virtue of baptism only, are under the care of the church, and subject to ecclesiastical discipline" (italics added). I know you are not OPC, but I think the OPC BCO is right. If this man is not a member of the visible church, he cannot be disciplined by a body of which he is not a member. He can be rebuked, admonished, exhorted, even evangelized, etc., but he cannot come under ecclesiastical discipline because he is not a member of the _ecclesia_, his profession of faith notwithstanding.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

I see, but should they allow him to fellowship with others? Also what if they rebuke you for rebuke him because you don't have a relationship with him?


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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for your thoughts


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 25, 2021)

I think he should be welcomed to the service of the preaching of the word but of any fellowship before during or afterward he ought to be excluded due to his lifestyle. A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump:

*1Co 5:1-9 KJV* 1 _It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:_

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I think he should be welcomed to the service of the preaching of the word but of any fellowship before during or afterward he ought to be excluded due to his lifestyle. A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump:
> 
> *1Co 5:1-9 KJV* 1 _It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:_


What if he is conducting a fellowship meeting with believers behind the pastors back? And he goes to a Bible study and prays and fellowships with pastoral approval? Your thoughts?


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## Charles Johnson (Apr 25, 2021)

Church discipline generally means exclusion from the sacraments. This man, if he is partaking of the Lord's Supper, needs to be excluded until he repents.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok thanks


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## Zach (Apr 25, 2021)

Charles Johnson said:


> Church discipline generally means exclusion from the sacraments. This man, if he is partaking of the Lord's Supper, needs to be excluded until he repents.


Agreed. Although since he is not a member, and likely not a member of any particular church, he probably shouldn't have been taking the Lord's Supper to begin with. It's one of the reasons fencing of the Lord's table should require participants to be members of a Christian church. Anyone who cannot be formally excommunicated from the church shouldn't be taking the Lord's Supper under ordinary circumstances.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for your thoughts


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## RamistThomist (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> What if he is conducting a fellowship meeting with believers behind the pastors back? And he goes to a Bible study and prays and fellowships with pastoral approval? Your thoughts?



Then the pastor should deal with those members. Beyond that, no Lord's supper and the like. Since he isn't a member the church does'nt have any judicial authority over him.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Then the pastor should deal with those members. Beyond that, no Lord's supper and the like. Since he isn't a member the church does'nt have any judicial authority over him.


Thanks for your feedback


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## Andrew35 (Apr 25, 2021)

Now *No one* knows.

Before receiving replies, No one _didn't _know.

So earlier everyone knew, but now no one knows?

Maybe this question should have remained unanswered.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Apr 25, 2021)

Corrective church discipline is obviously not something you can practice on someone who is not a member of the church. But it is necessary to make it clear to someone who is living in sin that they have no interest in the things of Christ's Kingdom, and they have no title to the privileges of church membership. The Power of the Keys is exercised in this instance by making it clear both in the preaching of God's Word and also in fencing the Lord's Table that the Kingdom of God is shut against the inpenitent and disobedient.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Corrective church discipline is obviously not something you can practice on someone who is not a member of the church. But it is necessary to make it clear to someone who is living in sin that they have no interest in the things of Christ's Kingdom, and they have no title to the privileges of church membership. The Power of the Keys is exercised in this instance by making it clear both in the preaching of God's Word and also in fencing the Lord's Table that the Kingdom of God is shut against the inpenitent and disobedient.


Thank you for this response, just trying to learn for future instances.


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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> Now *No one* knows.
> 
> Before receiving replies, No one _didn't _know.
> 
> ...


Are you teasing me based on the name I chose.


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## Andrew35 (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> Are you teasing me based on the name I chose.


Just a bit. I love wordplay.  

For the record, I did think it was an excellent question and discussion.

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> Just a bit. I love wordplay.
> 
> For the record, I did think it was an excellent question and discussion.


I was worried it was a bad question well your with it. Do you enjoy literature?


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## Andrew35 (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> I was worried it was a bad question well your with it. Do you enjoy literature?


English teacher.


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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> English teacher.


Really? I am studying to be an English teacher. How do you like it ?


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## C. M. Sheffield (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> Thank you for this response, just trying to learn for future instances.


Of course. I was just answering your question. I hope my reply did not come off as critical. I was just adding my . I hope it was unto edification.


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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Of course. I was just answering your question. I hope my reply did not come off as critical. I was just adding my .


No absolutely not, I really appreciate it I just don't want to come off as airing my dirty laundry. Are there any resources you recommend I study to learn more about this issue? And also on the doctrine of seperation


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## Andrew35 (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> Really? I am studying to be an English teacher. How do you like it ?


It can be awesome, and frequently is. But prepare for a lot of misery your first few years. Colleges don't properly prepare students for real world teaching. That's not a sharp criticism, since I'm not sure they really can, the way they're structured. You learn (painfully) on the job.

So much of your experience will depend on factors over which you have no control: e.g. the leadership of your school and the quality and culture of your students. Depending on these, you might have what feels like a completely different kind of job. I mean, teaching at a low-performing, rural public school vs teaching at an elite private school don't even feel like they're in the same ballpark in terms of what you do and how it affects you. Both are valuable and important jobs, but they're _not_ the same thing.

If you get a chance, read _13 Ways of Going on a Field Trip_ by, uh, "Spotted Toad" (some bad language, just as a warning). Still probably the best book on teaching I've ever read.

All the best!

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## No one (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> It can be awesome, and frequently is. But prepare for a lot of misery your first few years. Colleges don't properly prepare students for real world teaching. That's not a sharp criticism, since I'm not sure they really can, the way they're structured. You learn (painfully) on the job.
> 
> So much of your experience will depend on factors over which you have no control: e.g. the leadership of your school and the quality and culture of your students. Depending on these, you might have what feels like a completely different kind of job. I mean, teaching at a low-performing, rural public school vs teaching at an elite private school don't even feel like they're in the same ballpark in terms of what you do and how it affects you. Both are valuable and important jobs, but they're _not_ the same thing.
> 
> ...


I shall, do you teach in a public school?


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## Andrew35 (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> I shall, do you teach in a public school?


Not currently. I have. Wasn't my cup of tea. But that had a lot to do with a domineering leadership style I just didn't thrive under. I went international, where I'm much happier.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Apr 25, 2021)

No one said:


> Are there any resources you recommend I study to learn more about this issue? And also on the doctrine of seperation


In matters such as this, what is called for is a sound understanding of biblical ecclesiology.

From a _Baptist_ perspective, I cannot think of a better resource than Polity: Biblical Arguments on How to Conduct Church Life. It's no longer in print and available copies will set you back a pretty penny. But you can find it free at 9 Marks (here).

From a _Presbyterian_ perspective, I would recommend James Bannerman's The Church of Christ. While there are things a Baptist will disagree with, you will profit from giving serious thought to what he says. And for me, it has helped to sharpen my thinking about my own views which are distinctively baptistic.


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## No one (Apr 26, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> Not currently. I have. Wasn't my cup of tea. But that had a lot to do with a domineering leadership style I just didn't thrive under. I went international, where I'm much happier.


International? Where at? I was thinking of doing this? Any advice on how to get there?


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## No one (Apr 26, 2021)

No one said:


> International? Where at? I was thinking of doing this? Any advice on how to get there?


Sorry for the multitude of questions


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## Andrew35 (Apr 26, 2021)

No one said:


> Sorry for the multitude of questions


No problem! I am a teacher, after all.

It's variable. I worked in China the longest, though I'm currently in SE Asia.

If you're a new teacher, take a job nobody wants (e.g. EFL) at a large, lower-tier, national organization with room to grow; get to know the people; and work your way up. With the high turnover in int'l education, that's not too hard to do quite rapidly. If you have legitimate teaching credentials, it's relatively easy. Take all the PD opportunities you can. Then you can leverage your experience and credentials to move to a higher-level school in the same country or in another. Or stay in your old school, if you prefer.

Job opportunities in a_ true_ international schools are extremely competitive (hence my suggested route above), but the opportunities are definitely out there, for the willing.


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## No one (Apr 26, 2021)

What's efl? Also are there any jobs in the middle east that's where I want to be. What credentials do I need? Also may I have your contact information?


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## Andrew35 (Apr 26, 2021)

No one said:


> What's efl? Also are there any jobs in the middle east that's where I want to be. What credentials do I need? Also may I have your contact information?


Sending you a private message.


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## rareeves72 (Apr 26, 2021)

Taylor said:


> The OPC the Book of Church Order states, "Ecclesiastical discipline is the exercise of that authority which the Lord Jesus Christ has committed to _the visible church_ for the preservation of its purity, peace, and good order," and, "All _members of the church_, both communicants and those who are members by virtue of baptism only, are under the care of the church, and subject to ecclesiastical discipline" (italics added). I know you are not OPC, but I think the OPC BCO is right. If this man is not a member of the visible church, he cannot be disciplined by a body of which he is not a member. He can be rebuked, admonished, exhorted, even evangelized, etc., but he cannot come under ecclesiastical discipline because he is not a member of the _ecclesia_, his profession of faith notwithstanding.


I agree with you. I would also add as an elder with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church that this person needs to be pulled to the side and have a discussion of the brevity of his sin. I would even say to that while he does not fall under ecclesiastical discipline. He needs to be forbidden from communion.


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## joejohnston3 (Apr 26, 2021)

Charles Johnson said:


> Church discipline generally means exclusion from the sacraments. This man, if he is partaking of the Lord's Supper, needs to be excluded until he repents.


This right here! There has been great input but it all comes down to this really!

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## Jack K (Apr 26, 2021)

Grant, I have a few thoughts:

First, church discipline is not limited to exclusion from the Supper, and usually does not begin there. Sure, "discipline" proper may be limited to those who are members, and the furthest steps of discipline such as removal from the church rolls obviously require membership in the first place. But elders who wish to be helpful to mere attenders can choose to practice many of the lesser tools of discipline with them. They can still teach and admonish, and depending on the church's stance on the Supper they may suspend a person from partaking, and often these actions may be very helpful even to a non-member.

Second, these matters are usually decided locally, by a godly and well-informed group of elders, for good reason. A key purpose of discipline is to restore and build up the wayward believer, and and taking the best steps toward this requires consideration of what is happening in his heart. It is not really a matter that ought to be decided on a message board by people who do not know the fellow.

Third, matters of cohabitation are not always as simple as "You need to move out!" Would that be abandonment? Are there children involved? It doesn't sound like this is the case in the scenario you've described, but a godly group of elders will likely be asking such questions and might be dealing with a situation that's more complicated than it appears to be to you, who are on the outside looking in.

Fourth, social shunning is not a preferred form of discipline within the Reformed tradition, again for good reason. It doesn't tend to be restorative, and it imposes obligations on church members that are beyond their calling. For you to decide on your own to avoid pleasant conversation with this fellow over coffee after the service, or to impose other social ostracism, is probably not helpful. If your elders were to recommend it in this instance, believing after careful consideration of the whole situation that it would be helpful to the guy, then perhaps it would be appropriate. But it sounds more likely they believe that continued social interaction with others in the church is beneficial to him, and you probably ought to honor their decision about that.

Fifth, if you are concerned that the elders are simply ignoring their responsibility in this matter, your response should not be to take matters into your own hands but to tell them your concerns. They may be able to reassure you that they are addressing the situation (though they surely will not do so perfectly). Or perhaps your concern will cause them to realize they need to step up and do more than they've done so far. In either case, you need to go through your elders rather than decide and implement on your own what you think the elders ought to be doing.

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## Andres (Apr 27, 2021)

> _WCF 25.2. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, _*out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.*



Encourage this man first and foremost to join himself to Christ's visible church. He needs to recognize and submit to the God-given authority Christ has established within His church (a local session). Of course, part two of this is his behavior is presently that of an unbeliever. These are God's words, not our own. (1 Cor 6:9-11). Lovingly rebuke this man that until his life bears fruits of true repentance, there is no reason to believe him to be saved and therefore no potential for him to become a member. As others have rightly noted, the Lord's Supper is reserved for church member's so he should not be admitted to the table. (Side note: this is why I like the practice of members coming to a physical table to partake of the supper. It is a stark and powerful picture of the sheep and goats being separated when you have members seated together at the table and non-members remaining in the pews/chairs to observe but not partake).

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## rareeves72 (Apr 27, 2021)

rareeves72 said:


> I agree with you. I would also add as an elder with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church that this person needs to be pulled to the side and have a discussion of the brevity of his sin. I would even say to that while he does not fall under ecclesiastical discipline. He needs to be forbidden from communion.





Andres said:


> Encourage this man first and foremost to join himself to Christ's visible church. He needs to recognize and submit to the God-given authority Christ has established within His church (a local session). Of course, part two of this is his behavior is presently that of an unbeliever. These are God's words, not our own. (1 Cor 6:9-11). Lovingly rebuke this man that until his life bears fruits of true repentance, there is no reason to believe him to be saved and therefore no potential for him to become a member. As others have rightly noted, the Lord's Supper is reserved for church member's so he should not be admitted to the table. (Side note: this is why I like the practice of members coming to a physical table to partake of the supper. It is a stark and powerful picture of the sheep and goats being separated when you have members seated together at the table and non-members remaining in the pews/chairs to observe but not partake).


Amen, well stated. Thank you.


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## No one (Apr 27, 2021)

Jack K said:


> Grant, I have a few thoughts:
> 
> First, church discipline is not limited to exclusion from the Supper, and usually does not begin there. Sure, "discipline" proper may be limited to those who are members, and the furthest steps of discipline such as removal from the church rolls obviously require membership in the first place. But elders who wish to be helpful to mere attenders can choose to practice many of the lesser tools of discipline with them. They can still teach and admonish, and depending on the church's stance on the Supper they may suspend a person from partaking, and often these actions may be very helpful even to a non-member.
> 
> ...


Thankyou sir, this post has been most helpful and am hear to learn so these posts are a blessing


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## No one (Apr 27, 2021)

Jack K said:


> Grant, I have a few thoughts:
> 
> First, church discipline is not limited to exclusion from the Supper, and usually does not begin there. Sure, "discipline" proper may be limited to those who are members, and the furthest steps of discipline such as removal from the church rolls obviously require membership in the first place. But elders who wish to be helpful to mere attenders can choose to practice many of the lesser tools of discipline with them. They can still teach and admonish, and depending on the church's stance on the Supper they may suspend a person from partaking, and often these actions may be very helpful even to a non-member.
> 
> ...


I did not mean sir total avoidance and if I stated as such I apologize. I meant in terms of engaging in fellowships with outside of church.


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## No one (Apr 27, 2021)

Jack K said:


> Grant, I have a few thoughts:
> 
> First, church discipline is not limited to exclusion from the Supper, and usually does not begin there. Sure, "discipline" proper may be limited to those who are members, and the furthest steps of discipline such as removal from the church rolls obviously require membership in the first place. But elders who wish to be helpful to mere attenders can choose to practice many of the lesser tools of discipline with them. They can still teach and admonish, and depending on the church's stance on the Supper they may suspend a person from partaking, and often these actions may be very helpful even to a non-member.
> 
> ...


But thankyou for everything you said it was helpful and enlightening. This is the first time I have dealt with such a situation so was a bit confused but your comments have truly helped so thanks.


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## No one (May 15, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> In matters such as this, what is called for is a sound understanding of biblical ecclesiology.
> 
> From a _Baptist_ perspective, I cannot think of a better resource than Polity: Biblical Arguments on How to Conduct Church Life. It's no longer in print and available copies will set you back a pretty penny. But you can find it free at 9 Marks (here).
> 
> From a _Presbyterian_ perspective, I would recommend James Bannerman's The Church of Christ. While there are things a Baptist will disagree with, you will profit from giving serious thought to what he says. And for me, it has helped to sharpen my thinking about my own views which are distinctively baptistic.


I'll get these thanks sir

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