# Is it impious to ask for money?



## Tim (Aug 15, 2008)

Let's consider a young man who attends seminary and has a family. They have budgeted as best they can but will run out of money at the end of the month. How they could have done it differently is not the issue here. The fact is that they will soon be in need.

One friend says to bring up this matter with all his contacts from school, church, and family. And that he should also pray for God's provision.

The other friend says to not mention this to his contacts. He should simply petition the Lord for His provision since asking others for money would mean he didn't completely trust God to provide.

Which friend has the more correct perspective on prayer, God, and His provision?


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2008)

Same scenario for missions. I had some people trying to "George Mueller" me and convince me to not tell anyone of the needs here. God, however, uses means and one of those means is info. You cannot pray for what you don't know and God directs people through info that they know. If you are a needy ministry or a mission, get your info out. If a seminary student, not sure.


----------



## JBaldwin (Aug 15, 2008)

I have personally been down both roads, and I've seen the Lord provide in both, not because of what I did, but because God takes care of His own. 

Having said that, I don't believe that it is right to hide genuine needs. It is our privilege and joy as believers to pray for and support others in need. If we don't tell people our needs, we are denying them an opportunity to pray. 

Making our needs known is also a way for us to check our hearts to make sure there is nothing we need to repent of. It gives us an opportunity to re-evaluate our situations and see if there is anything we can do to remedy the situation. Sometimes God puts us in financial situations that are difficult to teach us to trust Him more.

One of the things I have learned over the years is that God is never too early or never too late when providing for His children. He is always on time. He didn't tell us that it would all be in our hands weeks before we need it. Jesus told His disciples to pray for their daily bread, and sometimes that is how God provides for us--one day at a time. 

Over and over again, in my life God has put me in a place where I didn't know how the bills were going to be paid, and then I saw Him provide, either through an odd job that came up or an unexpected gift from a Christian brother or sister, or even someone dropping by to pay me money they owed me.


----------



## JBaldwin (Aug 15, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Same scenario for missions. I had some people trying to "George Mueller" me and convince me to not tell anyone of the needs here. God, however, uses means and one of those means is info. You cannot pray for what you don't know and God directs people through info that they know. If you are a needy ministry or a mission, get your info out. If a seminary student, not sure.



Pergy, I had the same thought about seminary students. When you are called to God's work, there is a biblical reason for the church to support you. I'm not sure it is the same for a seminary student, but there is certainly nothing wrong with making needs known for prayer.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2008)

Yes, at what point one is "eligible" for such aid is up for debate. 

Once one is commissioned and sent out by a local chuch, then this means that a group is taking responsibility for you to some degree - and therefore your needs MUST be made known and all genuine needs should be met. 

However, a seminary student is a servant-in-waiting, a candidate if you will and he will enter service based upon successful completion of his trial run (i.e. seminary and his tests for ordination), so a seminary student may or may not be eligible to ask from his church too much, though asking for prayer is certainly always an option.


----------



## BJClark (Aug 15, 2008)

Tim;

How will people know there is a need if they don't speak up? God did not create mind readers within His body..

Even for a Seminary Student, if they have a need they could go to their church family and let them know of the need and allow God's family the opportunity to help them.

My question would be, why are they afraid to ask? Is there a pride issue going on where they think they shouldn't need help on occasion and or to embarrassed they need help? 

I have found having to seek assistance humbles us, and teaches us to rely on God and His provision, and sometimes that provision is through our church body. 

And through that, it builds compassion in our hearts towards others when they are in a similar situation and in need of assistance, and when we have the ability to help we are more apt to, because we've been there before and someone helped us in our time of need.


----------



## fredtgreco (Aug 15, 2008)

Not only does God use means, I convinced that God ordains such difficulties to provide opportunities for His people to minister to the one in need. God does just want to provide for the needy; He wants those who do not lack to have opportunities to minister.


----------



## Tim (Aug 15, 2008)

I think I agree with everything that has been said. I was recently in a conversation and it seemed to be implied that one wasn't fully trusting God if they asked for help from others. I was uncomfortable with this suggestion - it didn't seem Biblical.

But I think there are those who would say - never tell, just pray! I think you are saying that you had this experience, Pergamum?


----------



## Wannabee (Aug 15, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, at what point one is "eligible" for such aid is up for debate.
> 
> Once one is commissioned and sent out by a local chuch, then this means that a group is taking responsibility for you to some degree - and therefore your needs MUST be made known and all genuine needs should be met.
> 
> However, a seminary student is a servant-in-waiting, a candidate if you will and he will enter service based upon successful completion of his trial run (i.e. seminary and his tests for ordination), so a seminary student may or may not be eligible to ask from his church too much, though asking for prayer is certainly always an option.


I think this points to a major problem in our churches, which has been discussed in other threads. The seminary student SHOULD be sent by the church. As part of the church's investment in ministry they should do what they can to facilitate this. However, most of us are stuck with no options like this, but simply must do what we can do.


fredtgreco said:


> Not only does God use means, I convinced that God ordains such difficulties to provide opportunities for His people to minister to the one in need. God does just want to provide for the needy; He wants those who do not lack to have opportunities to minister.


AMEN! This is often an overlooked aspect of the body of Christ. Where would those who abound minister if none had need. The health and wealth guys hate this. Furthermore, the faithfulness of the needy often convicts those who abound and yet are reserved (think two mites).

This is included in the gifts of the church. We often consider needs to be a lack of gifts from God. But needs are a gift from God, providing an avenue for reciprocal ministry and the means for joyful giving, mutual encouragement and growth in Christ.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2008)

Tim said:


> I think I agree with everything that has been said. I was recently in a conversation and it seemed to be implied that one wasn't fully trusting God if they asked for help from others. I was uncomfortable with this suggestion - it didn't seem Biblical.
> 
> But I think there are those who would say - never tell, just pray! I think you are saying that you had this experience, Pergamum?




Yes, I have been George Mueller'd many times over. 

I have presented the needs of this field (TRUE needs, people starve here and an evangelist friend actually had his clothes WEAR OFF his back and so his buddies teased him because he went to wearing the leaves like the people for a while until he could be resupplied)...and then at the end, some little old lady will come up to me or some stuffy guy and will tell me all about George Mueller. If I REALLY had faith, I would follow Mueller....


I am Sovereign Grace Baptist and this has happened to me 5 times now in baptist and calvinistic churches. It is a mark of true spirituality they say to make your needs known to God and wait on his blessings instead of trying to manipulate people's consciences I suppose. 



Curiously, another minister I know of does follow the Goerge Mueller principle. This has caused many to ask why I don't do the same. Needless to say this irritated me everytime I heard it, until I heard from a friend that went on a trip with this man. Before they went to lunch, the pastor friend ask this George Mueller protege if he would like to eat out for lunch. Imagine this conversation:

Pastor: Do you want to eat out for lunch
George Mueller Follower (GM for short): Well, I would love to...IF the Lord provides.
Pastor: Well, I'll pay...we can't have you wait in the car while we eat, come on....


Then later, seeing a historical site:

Pastor: Hey, this looks interesting, let's go in. Its 5 bucks per person
GM: Ah, I don't seem to have the money. If the Lord wants me to go in, he'll provide a way.
Pastor: Oh, come on ...I';ll pay.


Then, later for dinner: Repeat


This pastor said he was so sick of George Mueller by the end of the day that he gave a large donation to this man so that this man could pay his own pay and not bother him any more for the rest of the trip...



It is a disservice to the Cause of World Missions if a man cannot plan or budget. That is why most missionaries ask for monthly pledges - to provide continuity to ministries that are all money-related to some degree.


Perhaps some day I will learn to appreciate George Mueller more, but my tradition has made it hard for me.



However, George Mueller moments do OFTEN happen. I have had bills come up unexpectedly and the very same day have gotten that exact donation. Truly amazing! This has happened at least 4 times in the past 3 years. But I am not going to presume upon God to do it every week, and so I make sure I get a sound financial support base together in the meantime.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2008)

Wannabee said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, at what point one is "eligible" for such aid is up for debate.
> ...




Very good points and maybe a fit topic for a new thread. At what point is a Seminary student a candidate for funds and at what point is he an investment of the church and meriting aid? If 4 years of Bible school and then 4 years of seminary, at what point should a church use church funds to help the young person?


----------



## JBaldwin (Aug 16, 2008)

Since we are discussing George Mueller, I have to chime in here and agree with Pergy. I was sent to the mission field by a mission board that promoted George Mueller-type financing. I was to ask for no money and trust God to provide. The mission paid me directly. The monthly income was based on the financial report I turned in the month before, and any donations were to be given directly to the mission. The mission was supposed to notify me who gave money so I could send them acknowledgement of receipt. 

I lived from hand to mouth (literally) on the mission field for over 2 years. God blessed me personally, and I learned to trust Him, but it was tough. Sometimes I didn't have the money to heat my home in the middle of the winter when it was below freezing and there was snow on the ground, let alone enough money to keep food in the cupboards. 

After my first term was over, I went home (having learned a lot) only to discover that the mission was not notifying me or giving me all the funds that had come in for me. Their idea of living by faith was secretly begging and bribing wealthly people for money, and dividing it up among the 30+ missionaries who were scattered throughout the world. The mission director, of course, took his cut from the top before the missionaries saw anything. Needless to say, I didn't return to the mission field. 

I, too, as I said before have experienced God's provision in a George Mueller way, but I don't attribute that to "not making my needs known and living by faith", but to God's love and care for me, His child.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

Funds and co-worker conflicts are the top two reasons for missionary stress. 

The accumulated worries due to lack of funds hampers the work. Soldiers with a shortage of bullets cannot aggressively attack the enemy, and money is one form of "bullet" that can be used in the work (even travelling for evangelism outreaches takes money after all).


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Aug 16, 2008)

*Is it impious to ask for money? No!*

*That's what the Deacons' Fund is for*. 

Nothing impious about it. The saints contribute to the deacons' fund to fill up that which is lacking. We are to do good to all men, but especially those of the household of faith.

If a man is in legitimate need, and cannot otherwise support his family and meet financial obligations, he should not feel ashamed to ask the diaconate of his local church for assistance.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

However, being in "genuine need" versus paying for college fees are two different things.

Some churches feel that a man should get through college himself. If he were in genuine need he would drop out and save himself those extra (expensive) college fees and work his way through college at a slower pace. They would say that, unless it is a case of being below the poverty line, that the man should modify his lifestyle before church funds are diverted from "ministry" to give towards a shortfall and would advise that college is a want and not a need.

However, some other churches have older tried men and the church is behind them in sending them to seminary and have plans for him to serve the church upon successful completion of seminary and these congregations may decide to "invest" in a student.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Aug 16, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> However, being in "genuine need" versus paying for college fees are two different things.
> 
> Some churches feel that a man should get through college himself. If he were in genuine need he would drop out and save himself those extra (expensive) college fees and work his way through college at a slower pace. They would say that, unless it is a case of being below the poverty line, that the man should modify his lifestyle before church funds are diverted from "ministry" to give towards a shortfall and would advise that college is a want and not a need.
> 
> However, some other churches have older tried men and the church is behind them in sending them to seminary and have plans for him to serve the church upon successful completion of seminary and these congregations may decide to "invest" in a student.




Granted. But even still I think giving the benefit of the doubt here is called for:



> Let's consider a young man who attends seminary and has a family. They have budgeted as best they can but will run out of money at the end of the month. How they could have done it differently is not the issue here. The fact is that they will soon be in need.



The OP says "how they could have done it differently is not the issue." That notwithstanding, if this is an unexpected financial problem due to some unforeseen circumstance, then at the very least the diaconate should be asked for council about better handling future financial obligations. 

"They have budgeted as best they can but will run out of money at the end of the month." Is this a one time situation, or is there a long standing, habitual pattern of fiscal irresponcibility?


In either event it sounds to me like an opportunity for diaconal ministry in one form or another.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

Just reporting one possible decision by churches. The American church is WAY rich, so helping education for the kingdom even while not taking away from other ministries seems very possible (unless the guy wants to go to a 100,000 per year college).


----------



## Grace Alone (Aug 16, 2008)

It really sounds like they need help with food and remaining bills for the end of that month due to unexpected expenses. I don't see anything about him asking for tuition. I think he should be able to ask for help just as any other member can, as Pres. Deacon has already stated. I do think the church should be doing some counseling with people who get into this situation, though, because if they were really budgeting correctly, they would have an emergency fund. If they have zero emergency funds, they are bound to repeat this scenario.


----------



## Ex Nihilo (Aug 16, 2008)

Tim said:


> I think I agree with everything that has been said. I was recently in a conversation and it seemed to be implied that one wasn't fully trusting God if they asked for help from others. I was uncomfortable with this suggestion - *it didn't seem Biblical.*



Didn't the Apostle Paul ask for money all the time, both for himself and for others? Or am I reading the epistles incorrectly?

You could quibble over different roles of members -- Is it appropriate for a missionary, a seminary student, etc? But if a man is in legitimate need of _basic_ support, why should it matter if he is called to ministry or to a "secular" vocation? I am not sure that I see a biblical directive to prioritize "ministry" over providing for the ordinary saints' material needs. (Indeed, the latter is ministry, and as many have pointed out, that's what the deacons' fund is for.)

And even if you disagree with using church funds, the man's friends should definitely be given the opportunity to help. It is a privilege to provide for a friend, but I think someone teaches us to be quiet about our needs and not "impose on" our friends or be a "mooch." I think it's often pride that keeps us silent.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

I would assert that a church MUST prioritize church needs over secular needs. Of course, starving or poverty stricken people need help, but needs based on voluntary activities, such as taking college courses that some people cannot do at all due to similar lack of finances should generally not be supported unless it aids the church.


----------



## Ex Nihilo (Aug 16, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> *I would assert that a church MUST prioritize church needs over secular needs. *Of course, starving or poverty stricken people need help, but needs based on voluntary activities, such as taking college courses that some people cannot do at all due to similar lack of finances should generally not be supported unless it aids the church.



I am not sure you can so neatly divide the two, but I see your point. I think we agree that meeting people's basic material needs is at least as important as any other church expenditure. But I certainly wouldn't call that a "secular" need, as if it were less holy than spending the money on new pew Bibles. Again, I don't see biblical support for this view.

Also, funding for secular education probably shouldn't come out of the church budget, per se, but there could be a role for church members providing this for each other. Actually, if the church set up a fund for this and made sure the money went where it was needed, it might be better coordinated -- so perhaps it could work through the church, even if it doesn't come out of general funds. I do not think it is our responsibility to make sure all church members live in the lap of luxury, but since education is so vital to helping fellow believers provide for themselves, it could be helpful.

I think sometimes our view of the church's role is too limited.


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

Most US churches only spend about 2% of their budgets on missions. 

I think we need to narrow our view of the church's role and priotize budgeting even more. 

I am afraid of churches spending money so freely on everything else that support of their pastors and bold evangelistic efforts and missions efforts go under-funded.

College is still a choice that many people do without. 

Many churches have people that go through Bible school with no plans to aid their local churches. If a church begins to provide college aid for many people, that is a LARGE expenditure. 

Many folks never finish Bible school or college. Therefore, some churches agree to help out at a later point but see this college education as a trial period. I have known churches who have funded people through seminary based on wishes of the student to go into the missions field, but in most of the cases, a glitch or detour happened and the student got free funding and never ended up making a contribution to the local or sending ministry of their churches.

I am all for generosity; but I also see a need for prioritization - and educational aid is a lower priority than a great many other needs.


----------



## Ex Nihilo (Aug 16, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Most US churches only spend about 2% of their budgets on missions.
> 
> I think we need to narrow our view of the church's role and priotize budgeting even more.
> 
> ...



I agree. I was really speaking in very idealistic terms -- how we would handle it if the brothers really did share everything. Perhaps it isn't useful to talk this way, since we don't, but I like to keep the ideal in mind as we discuss what is practical. At the same time, in dealing with the steps we take right now in working towards the ideal, there are real needs that should be met first. Educational support is _not_ one of them, I agree. _Assuming the current level of expenditure_, we shouldn't cut from missions to provide something that would be _nice_.

I very much agree churches need to spend much more on missions. The problem, however, is not that they are spending too much to provide for members' needs or to help the poor. The church in general, though I don't have the numbers to back this up, is spending far too much on its own facilities and for youth trips. I do not see biblical warrant for spending a large portion of the church's funding on facilities (and I don't mean having a nice worship area, class facilities, etc. -- I'm talking about gyms, television screens, sound systems, etc.) and vacations. I do see a biblical warrant for using resources to help the brothers in need. My concern is that the first category would, in an evangelical/Southern Baptist mindset, be categorized as "sacred," while the second would be "secular."


----------



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes, amen to that. Cut out the million dollar buildings and go with elegant simplicity and so much more funding on things besides dead structures would be possible.


----------



## Ex Nihilo (Aug 16, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, amen to that. Cut out the million dollar buildings and go with elegant simplicity and so much more funding on things besides dead structures would be possible.





I also agree with you that the role of the church needs to be narrowed in some areas -- namely, in recreation and entertainment. Still, and you probably agree, it should be expanded in others -- missions, providing for needs, real fellowship, and _teaching_. I am not really sure how this should all be implemented, but it may be possible that the scope of the church as a institution in itself (and a consumer of funds) would then be smaller. We might have fewer official "church activities" and more living as a community all the time, in our "secular" lives. To give a concrete example of what I mean, we might have fewer mid-week programs in the family life center and more meals together in our homes. But I might be thinking through this incorrectly.


----------



## Tim (Aug 18, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> But if a man is in legitimate need of _basic_ support, why should it matter if he is called to ministry or to a "secular" vocation?



Just so you all know, in my OP, I really was just using a seminary student as an example to discuss God filling a need in general. I could have mentioned a man who just lost his secular job through no fault of his own.

However, the discussion has brought up some important issues. I have been reading with interest the discussion regarding ministry vs. secular needs.


----------

