# Have you Experienced God?



## ChristopherPaul (Oct 18, 2006)

How are we to answer such a question?















[Edited on 10-18-2006 by ChristopherPaul]


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## BobVigneault (Oct 18, 2006)

He quickened me. He replaced my heart of stone with a heart of flesh. He gave me the ability to believe that Jesus is Lord and that the Father raised him from the dead. He gives me understanding of his Word. He directs my paths and guards my way. He knit together my innermost parts. He loves me though I am a wretched sinner. He gives me songs to sing in the night. He gives me peace that passes understanding when the world around me is falling apart. He sends Christian friends to encourage me. He sends his servants to preach the Word. He is transforming me into the very image of Christ. Other than that, no, I haven't experienced God.


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## Civbert (Oct 18, 2006)

How do you _know_ an "experience" is from God - because it feels good? - gives you peace? - makes you happy? Talk to your doctor - he can give you a pill for that.


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## caddy (Oct 18, 2006)

Amen and Amen ! 




> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> He quickened me. He replaced my heart of stone with a heart of flesh. He gave me the ability to believe that Jesus is Lord and that the Father raised him from the dead. He gives me understanding of his Word. He directs my paths and guards my way. He knit together my innermost parts. He loves me though I am a wretched sinner. He gives me songs to sing in the night. He gives me peace that passes understanding when the world around me is falling apart. He sends Christian friends to encourage me. He sends his servants to preach the Word. He is transforming me into the very image of Christ. Other than that, no, I haven't experienced God.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 18, 2006)

He put a new song in my mouth and a desire to know Him and his Word. I can not go an hour it seems without thinking of Christ and his mercy and my own wretchedness. it's been that way for 23 yrs. now. It was even that way when I went through a period of rebellion awhile back. I couldn't sleep at night for thinking of him and how things were not right. When he granted me a wonderful spirit of repentance He was there waiting for me like the Father for his prodigal son. I look forward to my final deliverence from this body of death. Untill then I pray for His matchless grace to serve Him untill the end and proclaim the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ to lost sinners wherever possible. He is truly all I have. Would to God that I loved Him more.
This little peace written by JC Philpot has been a blessing to me:

"And the servant abides not in the house forever--but the son abides forever." John 8:35

It is the irreversible blessing of a son, that he is never to be turned out of the house, that the union between the Parent and the child can never be broken, but that he is to reign with Christ through the ages of one everlasting day. This is a sweet consolation to God's family that "the son abides forever." How often is a child of God exercised, whether he shall abide forever, whether he may not draw back to perdition, whether some temptation may not overtake him whereby it shall be made manifest that he is nothing but a deceiver and deceived! But the Lord himself says, "the son abides forever;" let him be but a babe, let him have but the first beginning of spiritual life in his soul, he "abides forever;" he has the same interest in the affections of the Father, is a fellow-heir with Christ, and has a title to the same inheritance as those who are of longer standing, and those who are his elders in age.

But sometimes the son may get tired of the restraint of his Father's house. God is a wise Parent as well as a kind one. He will treat his children with the most tender kindness and intimacy, but he will never allow them to be guilty of disrespect towards him. Sometimes, then, the sons get weary of their Father's house; they are like the younger son in the parable, when he asked his father to give him his portion, and when he had gotten it, he went away into a far country, away from his father's house, from under his father's roof, and wasted it in riotous living. This is where many of God's children get. There is a restraint in God's house, where the soul is not really blessed with the personal and present enjoyment of gospel truth, and restraint being ever irksome, the vain, idolatrous heart thinks it can derive some pleasure from the world which is not to be found under the roof of the Father. And, therefore, he gradually withdraws his steps from his Father's house, seeks to derive some pleasure from the things of time and sense, erects some idol, and falls down to worship it. 

But notwithstanding all this, "the son abides forever." The Father of all his people in Christ does not disinherit his dear children; and though earthly parents may disinherit theirs, God's family are never cast out of the inheritance. The true-born Israelite who had waxed poor and sold himself unto the stranger was to obtain his freedom in the year of jubilee (Leviticus 25:47, 54), and to return to his own house and his own estate. So the son who has departed from his Father's house, and sold himself under sin, and become a slave to that cruel taskmaster, when the year of jubilee comes, the year of restoration, and the silver trumpet is blown, shakes off his shackles and fetters, casts aside the livery of servitude, returns to his Father's house, and is received with joy beneath his Father's roof. O what a meeting! The forgiving Parent, and the disobedient child! The Father dissolved in tears of affection; the child dissolved in tears of contrition! 

Whatever, then, be our wanderings of heart, alienation of affection, and backsliding of soul; however we may depart from God, so far as we are sons, we shall "abide in the house forever," and possess an "inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for those that are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." And it will be our mercy to abide in the house below as members of the family, without departing from it, until reunited to the family above, "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven."

J.C. PHILPOT


[Edited on 10-18-2006 by Blueridge reformer]


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## bfrank (Oct 18, 2006)

Absolutely!

As has been stated the conversion experience and delight in His Word is strong confirmation.

Did I, or do I experience Him the same way Moses did? Joseph, Paul, Abraham...absolutely not.

In every day experiences I cannot say that I can ascertain that I have experienced God at any particular moment...aside from conviction of sin and the renewal that is found by spending time in the Scriptures, which is experience. However, as cliche as it may sound hindsight is 20/20. Often it is possible to look back at decisions made etc., searching for the Lord's will and obeying His commands and realize that you were experiencing God and His leading.

Would I base my "experience" on a feeling? No. However, I would caution taking a mystical view. If we are to believe that the Scriptures are Holy Writ. If we are to believe that we can interpret them adequately...then we should also believe that we are sensitive to the leading of the Comforter, which is the Spirit of God. Can that leading be experienced? Of course.

How else can we have a personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour if we cannot experience Him?


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## Cheshire Cat (Oct 18, 2006)

I am borrowing this from somebody else in this forum, but I forgot his name or where I saw it. You don't need to "know" God inorder to experience God, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah can verify that statement for you .


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> I am borrowing this from somebody else in this forum, but I forgot his name or where I saw it. You don't need to "know" God inorder to experience God, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah can verify that statement for you .



This is the most helpful answer so far. You are basically saying everyone experiences God – which is the obvious answer.

I had a sociology professor in college who asked people if they believed in God. He would then pick one of those people and ask them why? The answer he was looking for was that they _experienced_ God and therefore believe, but of course the people he picked would respond, “That is how I was raised” etc. He would then go on to say that no one can argue with personal experience.


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## BobVigneault (Oct 18, 2006)

That was the amazing R. V. Bottomly, Caleb.



> "You don't have to believe in God in order to experience God."-- Deepak Chopra, back cover of his "How to Know God."
> 
> No doubt the inhabitants of Sodom can verify that statement.



[Edited on 10-18-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Civbert (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> I am borrowing this from somebody else in this forum, but I forgot his name or where I saw it. You don't need to "know" God inorder to experience God, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah can verify that statement for you .



I would also add that you don't need to "experience" God to know him.


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## Cheshire Cat (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> That was the amazing R. V. Bottomly, Caleb.
> 
> 
> ...


 I was close enough


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## JohnV (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> How are we to answer such a question?


Yes, I have.


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## bfrank (Oct 18, 2006)

quote]

I would also add that you don't need to "experience" God to know him.[/quote]

I disagree. I would think at that point all you would know is head knowledge...the facts about God

After all, isn't that the problem with the Church today. How many folks say they believe in Jesus...but don't actually know Him. They believe the facts about Jesus...as the demons do...and tremble.


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## JohnV (Oct 18, 2006)

Burt:

That's true enough. However, as someone who holds to the inclusion of infants in the covenant, and are therefore not excluded from the sacrament of baptism, I would hold that experience of God comes with living the faith, living out the doctrines one says he holds to. 

For example, it is not just memorizing the Sunday School texts because we're good kids, but there comes a time when the things you've learned in Sunday School are put to the test, to see if you really hold to them. When you say to yourself, "No, it is the truth, no matter what the situation's interpretation has put before me", and you trust in the truth of God's Word, that you begin to experience the reality of the Bible's teachings. And then when you are faced with things that put one truth up against another, or force you to choose between two evils, that's when the Spirit Himself guides you in understanding the Word's precepts. The more you experience the true teachings of the Word, guiding you in life's moment-to-moment tests of faith, the more you experience the Spirit's illuminations in those precepts of the Word. It isn't just studying the Word, but prayer too. Ask for guidance and you will receive it. The closer the communion with God, the more you will know that it is His active work in your life; and the more you will be able to discern His Work from that of the deception of sin. 

A child grows in that from head knowledge about God to knowing God. You cannot displace the importance of living the faith day-to-day, for that is where you learn to know God. You begin to know Him from intellectual activity, like reading, pondering, working out (studying), etc., but you learn to know Him from putting it into practice each and every moment of the day. 

I agree that someone who does not know God cannot really know that his sins have been forgiven either; he does not know how great his sins are if he cannot grasp to some extent the holiness of God, what kind of grace has been extended to him: it's just a matter of stating a doctrinal fact, but not of personal experience. You could question someone's Christian standing on that basis. But that does not exclude the fact that beginners in the faith know God, even if but a little. The same goes for those who delve into the philosophical aspects of Christianity, see its truthfulness or advantage, but do not 'experience' God to the same degree that a far less educated, but very practical and faithful person would. That does not mean that the philosopher is not a Christian; but it also means that the ordinary less-educated person isn't any less a Christian because of his lack of philosophical knowledge or understanding.

[Edited on 10-18-2006 by JohnV]


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## bfrank (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> Burt:
> 
> That's true enough. However, as someone who holds to the inclusion of infants in the covenant, and are therefore not excluded from the sacrament of baptism, I would hold that experience of God comes with living the faith, living out the doctrines one says he holds to.
> ...



John, I think I'm somewhat confused as to what you are saying.

However, I think we are saying the same thing


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> ...



John, I believe this may be the shortest post you have written here.


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> Burt:
> 
> That's true enough. However, as someone who holds to the inclusion of infants in the covenant, and are therefore not excluded from the sacrament of baptism, I would hold that experience of God comes with living the faith, living out the doctrines one says he holds to.
> ...



Ok, that's more like it!


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 19, 2006)

Could we perhaps define experience so we are all on the same page.

Is it to witness God? Then no one has experienced God after the apostolic period.

Is it to touch God? To talk with God? To hear God? Is it to speak in miraculous tongues?

Or is it like that Billy Graham quote that like the wind – we do not see it, but we see the effects of it?

I have an easier time explaining how I experience the grace of God in my life, but even all the post flood children of the serpent experience the grace of God by the mere fact that they are still enabled to live.

Hmm…


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## Civbert (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by bfrank_
> quote]
> 
> I would also add that you don't need to "experience" God to know him.



I disagree. I would think at that point all you would know is head knowledge...the facts about God[/quote] To have knowledge about God is what is required to know God.



> _Originally posted by bfrank_
> After all, isn't that the problem with the Church today. How many folks say they believe in Jesus...but don't actually know Him. They believe the facts about Jesus...as the demons do...and tremble.


I think the opposite it also true. People say they know God because they have "experienced" God - so you can keep all that dry doctrine to yourself.

To those who claim to know Jesus but who do no demonstrate it by loving others and demonstrating change in their lives - this is not "head knowledge" - it is a lie. For they do not believe what they confess. If they believed - it would change their lives. So there is not such thing as "head knowledge" verses "heart knowledge". That is umbilical and a false dichotomy (I think Geek in origin).

You do no "experience" God. You may experience the fruits of faith. But the faith is not an experience - it is the knowledge that God has given to us - belief in the Gospel. This is not an emotional experience - it is an intellectual assent to the truth of Scriptures. 

P.S. It is also not enough to know God exists - all men do and are condemned, and all demons do and they tremble. Men need to believe the Gospel to be saved. Men do not "experience" God or the Spirit of Jesus - they merely believe the truths of the Gospel by the power of the Spirit. And only following this (after regeneration and justification) may one experience the fruits of the Spirit (which might not be all cupcakes and cotton candy if ya know what I mean).


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## Civbert (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> Could we perhaps define experience so we are all on the same page.
> 
> Is it to witness God? Then no one has experienced God after the apostolic period.
> ...



Good questions.

How does one know what a brick is. Easy - look "brick"up in a dictionary. But now we want "personal" experience of a brick. We go out and we find a brick. (We're pretty sure when we see it, it's a brick). So we now have a visual experience of a brick. And so we touch it, feel it, weigh it in our hands. We have have a personal experience with the brick. Do we really have more knowledge of what a brick is? Not really. The definition of brick has not change or been altered by the experience. We can not add to the definition. What we "know" about bricks is still limited to the definitional truth of what a brick is. And now our experience are just perceptions and memories we associate with the definition. It may only confirm what we already know - the meaning of brick.

Now lets take God. How do we know who God is. Easy, we look him up in the Bible. We read about him, his attributes, his actions, his commands, his characteristics. We lean about Jesus and the Father and the Spirit. And now, if we believe the Bible - then we know God. Why not just say we know "about" God. Because God (the Father) is not material. We can not see him, hear him, touch him, taste him. All that we believe about God is based on belief in the propositions of Scripture. The more we know the Scripture, the more we know God. Let us add to this the experiences of sanctification; spiritual blessings, peace, joy, love, _long suffering_, _perseverance, conviction of sin_ (not all "positive" experiences). Do we know God even more? What can we add to what Scripture as told up? Not one iota. All the experience does is reinforce (or challenge) our faith. But the knowledge of God is still based on Scriptures and nothing more. 

So, to experience sanctification, one must first have faith, and faith comes from the knowledge of the Gospel and from knowing God. We first must know God and Jesus before we can enjoy the benefits of experiencing the fruits of that faith. We do not want to say "head" and "heart" knowledge because it implies that one must have the fruits in order to have the faith. This is saying faith is the result of experience (that one must experience the fruit _before_ one has true faith). This is a lie. The truth is saving faith comes from the Spirit through hearing the Word and prior to any experience of fruit.


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## Civbert (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> How are we to answer such a question?



P.S. Chis. Good discussion starter. Just want you to know I'm not assuming you have and agenda. You might have one, but it's not for me to assume what it is. 

P.P.S. To all. This was motivated by another debate I was following where one party kept trying to predict where the other person was going - and cut him off before he got there. Ironically, both were trying to go in the same direction - but the one was to defensive to answer any questions, and the discussion ended.


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## crhoades (Oct 19, 2006)

WCF 29.7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

Do we not experience God in the Lord's Supper?


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by bfrank_
> 
> John, I think I'm somewhat confused as to what you are saying.
> 
> However, I think we are saying the same thing



I wasn't disagreeing, but just adding to your thought. You had a good thought that brought this out for me.


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by JohnV_
> ...


Is not! :bigsmile:


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> Could we perhaps define experience so we are all on the same page.
> 
> Is it to witness God? Then no one has experienced God after the apostolic period.
> ...



Chris: 
Are you addressing these questions to me?


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## Civbert (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> WCF 29.7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
> 
> Do we not experience God in the Lord's Supper?



No. We experience the spiritual blessing of Christ. 

And not with our outward senses. "Experience" usually implies physical and/or emotional experience when we speak of "experiencing" God. But here we have a spiritual/intellectual experiencing of the blessings of Christ. - not an experience of the senses. 

And the only ones who receive any spiritual benefit are those who already know God and the Gospel and take the sacraments "worthily" - so this assumes regeneration and knowledge of the Gospel. 

My point being this - one must know God _before_ one can experience the spiritual blessings. And one does not "experience" God directly, but the blessings of the Spirit which may or may not involve our senses or emotions - but will certainly involve our minds since it always involves knowledge of God.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 19, 2006)

I tend to equate "experience" with "sense-perception," although not exclusively. So, in that sense, no.


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## BobVigneault (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> I tend to equate "experience" with "sense-perception," although not exclusively. So, in that sense, no.



But Gabe, if that is the true than you have never experienced love, honor, or any of the other non material facets of 'experience'. Obviously I'm speaking of mystical experience but mystical experience is experience and it is where we encounter God.

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

> Could we perhaps define experience so we are all on the same page.
> 
> Q.1. Is it to witness God? Then no one has experienced God after the apostolic period.
> 
> ...


Chris:

I have broken up your post into two questions and two propositions. I hope you don't mind.

Q.1. Is it to witness God? Then no one has experienced God after the apostolic period. 

Yes, it is. Yes they have. Not in the direct way that the Apostles did, but still so. The Apostles walked with a physical Jesus, who is now ascended. Physically He is not with us as He was with the Apostles. But it is still true that He has never left us or forsaken us. And it is true that He did send His Spirit. 

We will not see God like Moses saw God. But we are still daily seeing His majesty, power, and deity. Only we are numb to it through sin. How can anyone look at, and even marvel at, this creation and not see God's hand? I cannot understand that. How can anyone say that there is no evidence of God's existence? I cannot understand that. It isn't merely intellectual argumentation, but simple observation that it is so. How much more when you see the truths of God's Word, the moral teachings especially, which the world ridicules with so many examples of them being too simplistic, too black and white, too this and too that, being so emphatically displayed as "Of course, how did I not see that before" kind of true. So much so that even the simple can understand it as they see it. This does not come out of our own sinful and depraved nature, but by the guidance of the Spirit as we acknowledge and bow down before His superior wisdom, even as if He were personally in the room with us.


Q.2 Is it to touch God? To talk with God? To hear God? Is it to speak in miraculous tongues?

In a manner of speaking, as you may "touch" a spirit, yes it is to touch God. Not in the manner that we speak of touching something physical, for that, of course, cannot and may not be. Yet it is not that we touch God, but that He touches us with His Spirit. Contact is contact, and that is something which both parties are involved in. We touch God when we are touched by Him, by His Spirit. It is not physical, and not merely intellectual, but spiritual. We have a spirit, and this spirit may be touched by God. 

Do we talk to God? I would certainly hope so, for that is what prayer is. Does He talk back? Yes, but it is not so much audible as it is enlightening. When you "hear" it, there is no mistaking it. The "sound" of His voice is truth, and not of the kind that leaves a doubt of its truthfulness. It is not like an intellectual argument that entraps you into the argued principle, but more like a precept that leaves no doubt of its truthfulness, righteousness, and its God-glorifying application.

Is it to speak in miraculous tongues? I would say that such a thing entirely misunderstands the need, reason, or usefulness of speaking in tongues. I see this backwards so often: speaking in tongues being proof of God's Spirit manifesting Himself, as opposed the tongues coming from someone who is known to represent the Spirit faithfully. Anyone can speak any kind of noise and call it "tongues", and interpret it to anything he wants. But where is the proof that it comes from the Spirit? Even if it seems to state something to be entirely in line with Scripture's teaching, how is that proof of the Spirit? It ought to that, after the Apostolic age, entrusted men represent the Spirit in such matters of questionable things. 

P.1. I have an easier time explaining how I experience the grace of God in my life, 

If you know that it is the grace of God, then believe that it is real grace from a real and present God. It is not just a statement of hope, of Twentieth Century-type faith, (just believe it, and it will happen) but of reality itself. If you can testify to this, then you have experienced God. 

P.2.but even all the post flood children of the serpent experience the grace of God by the mere fact that they are still enabled to live.

No they can't. They do not see it as the grace of God. They do not experience it as such, even though it is. Some call this "passive grace", or "common grace". It is no different than what anyone else experiences, but it is confronted with a stubborn and immovable will. 

That is to say, they do experience the passive or common grace that is extended to all mankind so that they do not perish again as at the flood. If is that which overflows from the grace that is given to God's people. Just like America was once Christian-like, because of the impact of the Reformation upon social and ethical norms at large, so people can be Christian-like in their basic principles because Christians have raised the moral standard by their firm, strong, and determined stand of faith in the social structures of societies. By their witness they have shown the way of righteousness, by the way they lived they have shown what morality is, and by their example they they shown how God blesses righteousness. Where the world gives up hope, Christians have turned to God. And God has come through for them. 

But seeds fall on shallow, rocky, or thorn-infested ground too. People are grateful to God at first, outwardly, but inwardly they soon turn to pat themselves on the back. It was not God that delivered us from the threats of WWII, but our great American ingenuity and determination- Hitler was doomed to fail anyways- that sort of thing. It could not be, of course that God incited Hitler's generals to make serious errors out of their arrogant pride and feelings of invincibility, could it? It couldn't be because people prayed, earnestly prayed, could it? 

They see it, but do not glorify God; instead they suppress it. They see it, but not like those who experience God through prayer and carefully following His Word in all of life's experiences. 

This would be my answer, Chris. It's not all I would say, but I don't want to post too short a post, and neither should I post too long a post.


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Civbert_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> ...



No agenda. Having an agenda would assume I already have an answer to my questiuon in mind. That I do not have. I am honestly seeking answers and perspectives on this one.



> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> ...



No, they are general. But feel free to answer them if you like.


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> 
> 
> > Chris:
> ...



I did.


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## JohnV (Oct 19, 2006)

Eloquent short answers are a lot easier than I thought.


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