# 3 Months Until Christmas



## N. Eshelman (Sep 25, 2008)

Should we start the debate early this year?


----------



## Seb (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, I'll start.

I never cared much for filter-less cigarettes back in the day when I smoked, I think they are more likely to cause health problems.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Sep 25, 2008)

Seb said:


> Yes, I'll start.
> 
> I never cared much for filter-less cigarettes back in the day when I smoked, I think they are more likely to cause health problems.



Funny! You forgot stained fingers!


----------



## Grymir (Sep 25, 2008)

I smoke filterless. Actually, I get Marlboro light 100's and rip the filter off. When I smoke with a filter, it melts and makes my lungs feel like they are coated with crystals. 

Santa? 

He's more dangerous than cigs! I think the Spurgeon General should issue a warning!


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 25, 2008)

Judging from the responses; yep, it's too early.


----------



## FrielWatcher (Sep 25, 2008)

I prefer Luckies with their smooth tobacco flavor! Rich, pure enjoyment out of my cigarette - one that satisfies my T-zone!

BTW -


----------



## Webservant (Sep 25, 2008)

Isn't that Jonas Grumby?


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 25, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Seb said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'll start.
> ...




...and yellow teeth!


----------



## ww (Sep 25, 2008)

What debate? Santa is a real, living, entity which should never arouse anything but warm and fuzzy feelings!


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 25, 2008)

I celebrate civil Christmas but not the made up "Holy Day"...


----------



## Grymir (Sep 25, 2008)

Santa draws people away from Christ and sets up a Barthian reality concerning the word of God. 

Poor kids lead astray. Santa. The PC Joe Camel.


----------



## Seb (Sep 25, 2008)

whitway said:


> What debate? Santa is a real, living, entity which should never arouse anything but warm and fuzzy feelings!



Who evidently hides his yellow teeth with his mustache and his stained fingers with his white gloves.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Sep 25, 2008)

The debate was to be on the validity of Reformed people celebrating Christmas in the first place. I guess the debate will have to wait! I led everyone astray with visions of sugar plum faries and camel lights in their heads. Wow!


----------



## Grymir (Sep 25, 2008)

Sorry man. I thought with that picture Santa was the object of debate. Or cigs. Or both?


----------



## Webservant (Sep 26, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> The debate was to be on the validity of Reformed people celebrating Christmas in the first place. I guess the debate will have to wait! I led everyone astray with visions of sugar plum faries and camel lights in their heads. Wow!


I have a dear friend who will not worship with us until, as he says, the Saturnalia festival is over. He takes a vacation from church from a few days before Chritmas until New Years. He actually advocates elders visiting homes to make sure there are no Christmas trees, and he believes that Christmas trees are *always* (as is, no exceptions, 100% of the time) idolatrous. I reminded him that ancient Egyptians worshipped cats, and I demanded that he remove the idol (his big ugly cat) from his home. He angrily changed the subject after that and would not explore it again.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> The debate was to be on the validity of Reformed people celebrating Christmas in the first place. I guess the debate will have to wait! I led everyone astray with visions of sugar plum faries and camel lights in their heads. Wow!



Like I said I think Santa=fine, "Christ Mass" = Bad...


----------



## Grace Alone (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey, it's not time for that! We need to debate Halloween first!!!!


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

Halloween is ok if you do not make it more than it is....


----------



## ww (Sep 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Halloween is ok if you do not make it more than it is....



What is it? I thought it was Reformation Day!


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

whitway said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Halloween is ok if you do not make it more than it is....
> ...



In all seriousness for my kids it is an opportunity to dress silly and meet the neighbors. End of story.


----------



## ww (Sep 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...



Oh yes and for me to give out candy. Last year was sad though, brand new development, only house on the street but thought maybe the developments close by would see we had our lights on. We waited but no one ever rang our door bell.


----------



## Grace Alone (Sep 26, 2008)

It is so funny to me how there are such polar opposite views on issues like this within the reformed camp!


----------



## Grymir (Sep 26, 2008)

Haloween is the time to buy candy for kids that are few and we get the rest!


----------



## Kenneth_Murphy (Sep 26, 2008)

My folks got very angry with me when I told them, a few weeks ago, that my wife and I weren't going to teach our son (20 months old) that their is a Santa Claus and that any gifts they get for him should be addressed as from them and not from Santa. They told me I was ruining his childhood and stuff like that.


----------



## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

My wife and I say that from us, she gets no more than three gifts. The grandparents supply the rest. But, I keep heavily the theology of Christ's birth in it. To the few who knew it at the time of His birth, it must have been something! 

But, I do detest the commercial Christmas. The Wal-Mart pottamus stampede for TVs. 

Yet, there can be separation between the sacred and secular. I just wish it weren't celebrated at all because the resurrection is more important than the birth. And all of a sudden, on Dec. 24th evening service or whatever, the churches are filled to the gills with non-believers who absolutely do not want to be there and have no clue about why Christ had to come, legally. The Christmas and Easter churched people. Why be there if you don't care? But you won't be seein' any pastors preaching a "get the heck out if you are not ready to die for Christ this hour" sermon at Christmas. Christ is serious business.


----------



## wturri78 (Sep 26, 2008)

Kenneth_Murphy said:


> My folks got very angry with me when I told them, a few weeks ago, that my wife and I weren't going to teach our son (20 months old) that their is a Santa Claus and that any gifts they get for him should be addressed as from them and not from Santa. They told me I was ruining his childhood and stuff like that.



Yeah, my parents caught a lot of grief from just about everyone when they told me from the beginning that Santa wasn't a real person, just a fun story to play along with. I remember kids as old as 9 having their realities shattered when they finally learned the shocking truth. Funny how kids can be raised to believe fully in a fat guy in a sleigh, but Jesus isn't real to them at all--even those who go to church.

Christmas does have an awful lot of baggage to be sure, whether it's pagan symbology or the undying connection to being "Christ's Mass," but the term is of such ancient origin that I suspect the "mass" it was named for had not yet become the "mass" that the Reformers rejected and we still reject today--I may be wrong. Isn't the term "mass" originally derived from the Latin word used to dismiss people following the service?

At any rate, if we attach a level of holiness to Christmas that makes it "count more" than any other day, I think we're in dangerous waters. After all, how many "Christmas Christians" attend a service to "make up" for not having gone all year? But the principle of celebrating the birth of the savior on a particular day does not seem to me to transgress Scripture and would fall within the liberty of conscience for those who do, or do not, observe it. So long as the church does not require observance of the day, I do not see anything wrong. When it becomes a "holy day of observation" ala Rome, then it's crossed the line.

The same could be said of Easter--for that matter, any day of remembrance, whether Epiphany or Ascension--or seasons like Lent or Advent--the whole idea of a liturgical calendar I suppose. 

One thing comes to mind as I think about the matter. I know some Reformed Christians who do observe Christmas and Easter, but reject Advent and Lent as being unbiblical. Seems inconsistent to me...if we accept the days, I can't see any reason to reject, on principal, the seasons that precede them...

Boy am I rambling or what?!


----------



## Kim G (Sep 26, 2008)

Santa=bad
Snowmen=way awesome!

I don't like the myth of Santa; never have. I was one of those realistic kids that burst everyone's bubble regarding the myths of Santa, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny.

However, I have a fond attachment to snowmen.  Having grown up in Florida, snow always fascinated me.


----------



## MrMerlin777 (Sep 26, 2008)

Sigh......


----------



## Kim G (Sep 26, 2008)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Sigh......


Awww, you don't like Santa either? 

I'm guessing the whole Christmas debate comes up every year. Well, some of us are new, so we're up for it.


----------



## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

I thought the debate would have been about the validity of celebrating non-biblically mandated "holidays". Should we be celebrating Christmas. Puritan preacher Albert Martin gave several sermons against celebrating Christmas because it is not authorized.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2008)

Too early to pull out my Grinch costume


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 26, 2008)

Kim G said:


> MrMerlin777 said:
> 
> 
> > Sigh......
> ...


Yes; some of us have been discussing this at least (at least!) once a year since there's been an Internet (and no, Al Gore did not invent xmas). So newbies feel free to participate and pardon any grumps who bow out or simply post links saying "see here."


----------



## Kim G (Sep 26, 2008)

LadyFlynt said:


> Too early to pull out my Grinch costume


Ah! The Grinch! I LOVE the original How the Grinch stole Christmas movie. My family used to watch it on TV every year. My husband had never seen it until we were dating. I don't think he was impressed.  It wasn't nostalgic for him.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

Kenneth_Murphy said:


> My folks got very angry with me when I told them, a few weeks ago, that my wife and I weren't going to teach our son (20 months old) that their is a Santa Claus and that any gifts they get for him should be addressed as from them and not from Santa. They told me I was ruining his childhood and stuff like that.



Been there, done that. But you know what? They eventually get over it.  Stick to your guns.


----------



## Herald (Sep 26, 2008)

I look forward to the annual Christmas threads. I play some Johnny Mathis and Bing Crosby while sipping some spiked eggnog and watching those who oppose Christmas start frothing at the mouth. It's great entertainment.

Who said the PB is boring?


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...




When we took our son out for Halloween at age two...he was amazed!

"Daddy, can we do this every day? We knock on the neighbor's doors...and they give you candy. What could be better than that?"


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 26, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> I look forward to the annual Christmas threads. I play some Johnny Mathis and Bing Crosby while sipping some spiked eggnog and watching those who oppose Christmas start frothing at the mouth. It's great entertainment.
> 
> Who said the PB is boring?



Sounds like fun! Ho ho ho! Hee hee!


----------



## merkitheology (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't want to talk ill of Santa or he may put me on the naughty list, and I really want those presents.


----------



## Mushroom (Sep 26, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Santa draws people away from Christ and sets up a Barthian reality concerning the word of God.
> 
> Poor kids lead astray. Santa. The PC Joe Camel.



Timothy, only you could find a way to mention Barth in a Christmas thread. You are nothing if not consistent!

We need to start a thread devoted to keeping count.


----------



## Marrow Man (Sep 26, 2008)

Well, good ol' St. Nicholas did make a bold stand for Christ at the Council of Nicea.



> When Constantine became emperor, Nicholas was released with countless others and returned to his preaching only to find a new threat: Arianism. According to one biographer (writing five centuries after Nicholas's death), "Thanks to the teaching of St. Nicholas, the metropolis of Myra alone was untouched by the filth of the Arian heresy, which it firmly rejected as a death-dealing poison." Other biographers claim Nicholas attacked the heresy of Arius (who denied the full divinity of Christ) in a much more personal way—he traveled to the Council of Nicea and slapped Arius in the face! As the story goes (and this should be taken as fantasy because there are pretty good records of the council, and Nicholas isn't mentioned), the other bishops at Nicea were shocked at such rude behavior and relieved him as bishop. But then Jesus and Mary appeared next to him, and they quickly recanted.



Or maybe not.


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Sep 26, 2008)

We're not going to do Halloween or Santa, but know Christians who do both. 

Plenty of other opportunities to let kids dress up and be silly and plenty of real "supernatural entities" to acquaint our children with In my humble opinion.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 26, 2008)

A surprisingly high proportion of PBoarders actually celebrate Festivus.


----------



## CDM (Sep 26, 2008)

Curious: for those who do the Santa Christmas thing, do you tell the kids he's real and then let them find out on their own he is not? Or tell them from the start he is imaginary?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

mangum said:


> Curious: for those who do the Santa Christmas thing, do you tell the kids he's real and then let them find out on their own he is not? Or tell them from the start he is imaginary?



From the beginning we tell them (when they get that age) that Santa is not real, however I do not want my kids busting bubbles all over the place.


----------



## Webservant (Sep 26, 2008)

We never lied to our kids, either re:Santa. My mother was quite angry at us for that one. As for Halloween, we let them dress up in non-supernatural costumes and they get to answer the door and give out the candy. Since two of my sons can't have food coloring, we only buy chocolate, and we always have plenty left.


----------



## Sonoftheday (Sep 26, 2008)

I find it funny that the same people who fault me for absolutely refusing to work on any Lord's day of the year, nor miss corporate worship unless sick, hold the same attitude I do about every other Sunday for Easter Sunday and the Sunday closest to Xmas.


----------



## Grymir (Sep 26, 2008)

Brad said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > Santa draws people away from Christ and sets up a Barthian reality concerning the word of God.
> ...



I couldn't help it.  This time it just walked into my lap. As I was reading the thread, the parallels between Santa Claus and the Barthian Jesus were just too eerie. Santa is omniscient, because he knows who's naughty and nice. (Not to mention omnipresent. How could he deliver billions of gifts overnight?) He may have been a historical person, but he has a moral code that we should follow, even if we don't know the details historically. As we get into the Christmas spirit, he becomes real to us. Not to mention Santa had 12 reindeer vs. the 12 disciples! hmm. To believe in the Barthian Jesus and find out Barth was wrong can be disappointing like kids finding out that Santa isn't real.

Santa undermines Christmas and perverts it in the same way Barth undermines the Bible.

O.K. I'll stop for now.  This is like stealing candy from a kid on Halloween. Mwhaa, mwhaa, mwhaa!


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 26, 2008)

*Sometimes the actual numbers are irrelevant if you make a good point!*



Grymir said:


> Not to mention Santa had 12 reindeer vs. the 12 disciples!




Santa has eight reindeer, (Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donder, and Blitzen), nine if you count Rudolf!


----------



## Grymir (Sep 26, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > Not to mention Santa had 12 reindeer vs. the 12 disciples!
> ...



Aw man, just one little detail.  Can't I embelish the story. Maybe the people who wrote down the story got it wrong. After all, 'Santa: The Man, The Myth and The Legend' was written by mere mortals. They maybe got it wrong. I mean, they got rid of the Judas reindeer named Cygnus, and what about Oden and Krampus? We can't leave them out.


----------



## Grymir (Sep 26, 2008)

O.k. Enough of the Barthian Rant.

Did you all know that Santa is the new Pope of the Anticrist Church? Man I tell you all, the Jesuits are behind all this!!!


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 26, 2008)

Grymir said:


> O.k. Enough of the Barthian Rant.
> 
> Did you all know that Santa is the new Pope of the Anticrist Church? Man I tell you all, the Jesuits are behind all this!!!




Now that's funny! 

I think I'll use that picture on my Christmas cards this year!


----------



## ManleyBeasley (Sep 26, 2008)

Wait a minute.....some of you fellas are acting like Santa isn't real!


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 26, 2008)

Santa and his elves are evil. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZusqBw-Vu4]YouTube - A Christmas Story Siskel & Ebert At the Movies 1983[/ame]


----------



## Gesetveemet (Sep 26, 2008)

Grymir said:


> O.k. Enough of the Barthian Rant.
> 
> Did you all know that Santa is the new Pope of the Anticrist Church? Man I tell you all, the Jesuits are behind all this!!!



OK I guess it's time for the old stand by.


THIS

The Two Babylons--Alexander Hislop

​


----------



## Grymir (Sep 26, 2008)

All right!! The Two Babylons! What a great read. 

Let Pagan-Fest 2008 Begin!


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Santa and his elves are evil.
> 
> YouTube - A Christmas Story Siskel & Ebert At the Movies 1983



 Thanks, Andrew. The second greatest movie ever made!


----------



## Solus Christus (Sep 27, 2008)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> > Santa and his elves are evil.
> ...



Ok, I'll bite. What's the first?


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 27, 2008)

Solus Christus said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > VirginiaHuguenot said:
> ...



Ride With The Devil

My all time favorite movie. 

But you're free to disagree.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Sep 27, 2008)

ManleyBeasley said:


> Wait a minute.....some of you fellas are acting like Santa isn't real!



Of course, we believe that Saint Nicholas was real. He was a champion for orthodoxy and according to hagiography, slapped Arius in the face for being a heretic!


----------



## Grymir (Sep 27, 2008)

Oh, yea, let's just demythologize Santa. Next we need to set up the Santa Seminar and vote with marbles what is real or not!


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 27, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> ManleyBeasley said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a minute.....some of you fellas are acting like Santa isn't real!
> ...



Here is a picture of said event.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Sep 27, 2008)

Did you take the picture Andrew??


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 27, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Did you take the picture Andrew??


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 27, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Did you take the picture Andrew??



Come on now. Andrew is not that old. However, you may check with Dennis Mc., he may have an original laying around somewhere.


----------



## timmopussycat (Sep 27, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I celebrate civil Christmas but not the made up "Holy Day"...



Query: if Jesus went into the temple on the civil holiday of Hanakuh, is it biblical to make conscience of a Christian today going to church on civil Christmas?


----------



## timmopussycat (Sep 27, 2008)

wturri78 said:


> Christmas does have an awful lot of baggage to be sure, whether it's pagan symbology or the undying connection to being "Christ's Mass," but the term is of such ancient origin that I suspect the "mass" it was named for had not yet become the "mass" that the Reformers rejected and we still reject today--I may be wrong. Isn't the term "mass" originally derived from the Latin word used to dismiss people following the service?



You are correct. The term mass was a corruption of "dismissa est" I am told, which preceded the horrible idea of transubstantiation by some 3-5 centuries.


----------

