# Is the Love of Doctrine Unloving?



## EverydayMommy (Aug 27, 2008)

My sincere thanks for allowing me to learn from the Puritan Board. I need your assistance and pray you will share a wholly Biblical response as I want to be obedient to Him in all things.

Brief back story: My husband and I have a small island in the virtual world known as Second Life. The island is called Reformation and we share reformed doctrine with many visitors on a daily basis.

However, we are frequently accused of being unloving, unchristian, arrogant and the source of discord and disunity "in the body". These accusations come from others who claim the name of Christ and who embrace an Arminian or Semi-Pelagian view. Their assertion is that to hold to the authority of Scripture and to know what we believe and why we believe it is arrogant. To show one their error, and to use Scripture to do so, is hateful. To put it in a nutshell, they wish for truth and doctrine to be sacrificed on the altar of love and unity.

As a rookie in the Reformed Camp I sincerely need your assistance on how to address these accusations. 

My deep & sincere thanks.


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## PastorSBC (Aug 27, 2008)

The simple answer to your question in my opinion is no it is not unloving. We, as believers, should have a love for the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Grace. 

However, the problem in my opinion is when we love a system of theology more than we love Jesus. 

I am not saying you or your husband fall into this category at all, but I have seen many who do. 

You say that you share reformed doctrine with many, how many do you share your love of Jesus with?


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## Athaleyah (Aug 27, 2008)

Loving and sharing the true gospel is the loving thing to do. To let people continue unchecked in their error would be unloving. What they are asking you to do is to stop being loving.

We are supposed to have unity. But it is not unity at all costs. Doctrine cannot be sacrificed for unity.

I do not have a lot to say, but stand strong in the truth as you are doing and try to treat the angry mob as kindly as you can. But you are doing exactly what god calls you to do. God bless you for that.


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## Simply_Nikki (Aug 27, 2008)

PastorSBC said:


> The simple answer to your question in my opinion is no it is not unloving. We, as believers, should have a love for the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Grace.
> 
> However, the problem in my opinion is when we love a system of theology more than we love Jesus.



I agree with the above comments. Right answers in and of themselves profit nothing. You may give your body to be burned and if you have not love you've gained nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3). Many reformed people suffer through accusations such as the ones you pointed out. And sadly it's a result of many Christians trying to be compatibalists (trying to make Christianity compatible with worldly standards or worldviews); the idol god of tolerance of all things even that which diametrically stands to oppose God is rampant in universities, pop culture, media, etc, and so the quest of Christians to try to be "relevant" leads them into the trap of presenting God's love at the expense of his holiness.

If all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (2 timothy 3:16), then you would be doing an unloving thing by NOT doing what you are doing. Nevertheless taking motives into account, we must do what we do because we love those we share these things with. 

Keep doing what you're doing!


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## jaybird0827 (Aug 27, 2008)

to the PB. Nice to have you.

To love God, his Word, his works and his worship is to love the doctrine that he teaches us in his word. Make sure that your doctrine is more than a mere intellectual exercise. These things are initially discerned through the mind (Romans 12:1-2), but a godly and Scriptural understanding of them, and the subsequent transformation that takes place whereby these things become internalized and part of us is by the grace of God. 

It's easy to find people in the reformed camp who are into knocking everything not reformed to the point where so much is in the negative. Avoid these kinds of conversations as much as possible while seeking conversations that are more edifying.

When you share with others, be careful to keep it positive and edifying. There is a time and place to point out the errors in opposing doctrine but it must be done lovingly and carefully, as firmly.


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## Scott1 (Aug 27, 2008)

Deep question and needs careful answering.

Man, in his fallen nature has a tendency to corrupt every good thing. Right doctrine is one of those things.

But "right doctrine" is not an equal of every other thing. By it we know God. Jesus said He seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24) which comes by His Word. In the Old Testament He commanded His people to talk about His Word regularly and even write His Word above their doorposts (Deuteronomy 11:20). If we do not study and meditate upon God's Word constantly, the old nature will be fed by other things and sin, misery and chastisement will occur more.

Are there people who talk "good" doctrine but don't seem to be loving? Yes. Are there people who have no "good" doctrine but do seem to be loving? Yes. These things are painful and disappointing but they are not the basis of our faith (the God we know through His Word and good doctrine are).

Does that mean it is more spiritual to not have good doctrine but be "loving"? It is great sin to neglect knowing God through His Word and it is great sin to not begin, by God's grace to begin to practice what good doctrine says... "Love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 22:39)

It's easy to sound spiritual by emphasizing "the heart" but the Word of God (and doctrine) renew "the heart" constantly, making us better, not perfect, but better people for God's Honor and Glory.


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## DeoOpt (Aug 27, 2008)

I am not surprised that you would get such violence from so called christian believers, because most christians want a gospel that fits there agenda. This agenda does not have Christ centerd in there lives, it's all about what God will our can do for them, and may I say with little our no repentance in there lives. Yes God is a God of love, but God is a just God. God hates sin and we must bring sin to the forfront of any debate. If we dont know that we are sick- ie sin, than how can we see the need for a physician- ie, Jesus. So bodly proclaim God's word with no apology.


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## Lance (Aug 27, 2008)

I think it's a little strange to talk about doctrine as though it gets in the way of love. How is it that we even know about the love of Jesus again? Oh yeah....through doctrine. If the Word is a stumbling block, that is a different issue of sin that has nothing to do with doctrine but rather the fallen nature of man. The original poster gave absolutely no indication that she was not loving people. I would assume the opposite to be the case. Fight the good fight sister and stand firmly on the truth of Gods Word.


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## Simply_Nikki (Aug 27, 2008)

DeoOpt said:


> If we dont know that we are sick- ie sin, than how can we see the need for a physician- ie, Jesus. So bodly proclaim God's word with no apology.



I'm not doing this mean spiritedly, but just wanted to make sure you emphasize that we are "dead" in sin not merely sick, and in need of a "miracle worker" not just a physician.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Aug 27, 2008)

to the Puritan Board!

I have seen some defend the truths of Scripture with an aggressiveness, and abrasiveness that is not becoming to the Name of Christ.

However, it seems that it is the greater offense to allow error to persist, when you know and are able to defend the truth. It was the saying of Luther, "Peace if possible, but TRUTH, at any rate!"

The Apostle commends us to be set for the defence of the Gospel. I would gladly be counted "unloving" if the alternative is to be unfaithful and disloyal to the truths of Scripture. 

John Calvin said, "No learning is commendable which is not dipped in the love of God." We need to show Christ's love in our defense of the truths of Scripture. Calvinists are often characterized as "unloving," don't be discouraged by that. Just remain faithful to the defense of his truth.


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## EverydayMommy (Aug 27, 2008)

Thank you all. Please allow me to clarify. We share: 

1. The Gospel 2. The Love of God and 3. Reformed Doctrine in that order.

Am appreciating all your input.


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## DeoOpt (Aug 27, 2008)

Simply_Nikki said:


> DeoOpt said:
> 
> 
> > If we dont know that we are sick- ie sin, than how can we see the need for a physician- ie, Jesus. So bodly proclaim God's word with no apology.
> ...



Thank you for pointing that out Nikki. Yes we are dead in our sins and we are in need of a of a miracle worker, He certainly called this Lazarus from the dead.


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## Grace Alone (Aug 27, 2008)

Welcome to the PB!

A few years ago I was on the Crosswalk forum. There was a group of reformed people who tried to debate the doctrines of grace on there. Eventually, I got tired of it. People held on to their ideology so firmly and we rarely saw anyone change views, although there were some who were curious and open to hearing the truth.

I think that standing for right doctrine IS love. The enemy is the one who really hates it.

Keep doing what you're doing, but know that the Lord really has to be the one to open the hearts of people to hear it.


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## Scott1 (Aug 27, 2008)

EverydayMommy said:


> Thank you all. Please allow me to clarify. We share:
> 
> 1. The Gospel 2. The Love of God and 3. Reformed Doctrine in that order.
> 
> Am appreciating all your input.



From the limited information given here, its hard to have a basis to understand what you are encountering.

Maybe you are coming accross as "agenda driven" by some.

Maybe focus on living out a life pleasing to God and making the most of opportunities that come up. If Christianity is being integrated more and more into your life, opportunities to talk about it just come up in the ordinary course of life.

Remember, there is a spiritual dimension- sometimes people will not like you because you are a Christian (what's amazing is that non-Christians say the same thing- sometimes people don't like them immediately so don't read too much into that). Some of the people I have had the most meaningful interactions with were people I did not at first "like."

Another activity I have found God greatly uses is take time to serve others in both "religious" and "secular" contexts. A fellow (who had an accent) approached me for $1.75 to ride the subway. At first, I thought of annoyance but I asked God for grace and looked at him in the eyes and said, "I have $1.60, I'll give it you in the Name of Jesus Christ. It's not from me, so be sure you thank Him." He looked intently at me, seemed appreciative and wandered off into the crowd. I don't know if encounters like this make any difference, but God sure gives me plenty of them in the ordinary course of day-to-day living. No agenda, no pretence, just asking God for grace to do what He wants through ordinary things He brings my way.


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## FrielWatcher (Aug 27, 2008)

Welcome to PB fellow freshman! 



Grace Alone said:


> Welcome to the PB!
> 
> A few years ago I was on the Crosswalk forum. There was a group of reformed people who tried to debate the doctrines of grace on there. Eventually, I got tired of it. People held on to their ideology so firmly and we rarely saw anyone change views, although there were some who were curious and open to hearing the truth.



How set are we in our ways. The hearts of many are hardened as Pharaoh's, even mine. I thought of many times of going to such places like Crosswalk but know that there is not much true debate. More like this is what I believe take it or leave it. We live where the evidence is replaced by the experiential and the propositional replaced by the visual. Keep up your methods and pray.


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## Pergamum (Aug 27, 2008)

love and unity are important. Knowledge puffs up. 

I have seen many calvinisits who use the 5 points as a club to beat their victim with rather than a summary of the wondrous way in which God works. 

I suspect that there are many right-doctrined calvinists who are unregenerate and merely love the logical coherence of the system. 

Those that believe in grace are often far from gracious.




Pray that we all mix right doctrine with love for fellow believers and the lost.


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## PastorSBC (Aug 27, 2008)

very good words pergamum


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## EverydayMommy (Aug 27, 2008)

Maybe I haven't made my question clear. Permit me, if you will:

In our interactions we emphasize patience, gentleness and respect. We do not beat people over the head with tulips nor force them down their throats. We are constantly encouraging our staff to maintain Biblical behavior.

The anger they have toward us is not a result of our presentation but what we are presenting. It is so dramatic that they have even trumped up accusations against us, saying that we are doing and saying things we are not. One Sunday a "church" in this virtual community prayed that God would kill one of our staff.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Aug 28, 2008)

Pardon me for not reading every post above before adding my comments:

Our doctrine is important. Scripture itself stresses the importance of sound doctrine. In the pastoral epistles of 1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus alone, I counted 28 specific references to the importance of doctrine or the content of our teaching. For example,

Give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching (i.e. doctrine). 1 Tim. 4:13.

Preach the word . . . with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires. 2 Tim. 4:2-3.

[An elder must] hold fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. Titus 1:9

A failure to endure sound doctrine logically gives rise to unsound doctrine, and unsound doctrine in the professing church has historically led to critical perversions of God’s grace in Christ and the gospel itself.


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## Tim (Aug 28, 2008)

EverydayMommy said:


> Thank you all. Please allow me to clarify. We share:
> 
> 1. The Gospel 2. The Love of God and 3. Reformed Doctrine in that order.



I am not trying to be overly picky here, but aren't these the same thing?


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## Tim (Aug 28, 2008)

Another thought I had is that it is difficult to determine one's tone of speaking (writing) on the internet. One doesn't have the ability to use non-verbal communication. This must make it challenging when difficult issues are discussed. 

But you have stated, Jules, that the people are reacting to your message and not your manner of delivery. If you are convinced of this, then you are clearly not doing anything wrong by presenting what the Bible teaches. Keep on doing what you are doing. Continue to be humble and pray for wisdom and grace in this challenge. 

Blessings to you!


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## PastorSBC (Aug 28, 2008)

Tim said:


> EverydayMommy said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you all. Please allow me to clarify. We share:
> ...



Yes. But I think the distinction comes in that some are more interested (or so it seems) in calling someone to adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism rather than trusting in Christ for salvation.


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## EverydayMommy (Aug 28, 2008)

Tim said:


> EverydayMommy said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you all. Please allow me to clarify. We share:
> ...




Thanks, Tim! And, yes. All three are the same thing  It seems to me that some make them separate and thus create a false dichotomy?


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## Tim (Aug 29, 2008)

To follow this, let me mention:

I have recently become sensitive to the fact that I, in my sinfulness, may sometimes be more concerned with winning the argument that TULIP is correct (for example), rather than communicating TULIP because I love the person and want them to know more about God. If that is my approach, I have tainted the Gospel, presented an incomplete doctrine, and not been loving as I should. 

It is always a challenge, isn't it? May God help us all in our sanctification.


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## JBaldwin (Aug 29, 2008)

EverydayMommy said:


> Maybe I haven't made my question clear. Permit me, if you will:
> 
> In our interactions we emphasize patience, gentleness and respect. We do not beat people over the head with tulips nor force them down their throats. We are constantly encouraging our staff to maintain Biblical behavior.
> 
> The anger they have toward us is not a result of our presentation but what we are presenting. It is so dramatic that they have even trumped up accusations against us, saying that we are doing and saying things we are not. One Sunday a "church" in this virtual community prayed that God would kill one of our staff.



I, too, have been in your position many times on other Christian sites, and I must agree with those who say we should check our hearts and make sure we are not spouting of doctrine without love. 

On the other hand, there are those out there who have already been deeply offended by doctrine-spouting Calvinists. The mere mention of predestination or election touches their sore spot, and they launch an attack which has little or nothing to do with you. There are others who have an agenda, and they frequent Christian sites just to stir up trouble. 

If you are genuinely loving, avoid those who would stir up trouble, and be patient and kind to those who are struggling, you may eventually win them over to Christ. For isn't Christ our goal, not reformed theology?


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