# Eating out Lord's Day, scripture and confession



## Scott1

> *London Baptist Confession of Faith
> Chapter 22
> Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day
> 
> 8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.*



Given that the Westminster and London Baptist Confession of Faith summarize the doctrine of Scripture the same way in relation to keeping the Sabbath, what is your practical application with regard to eating meals outside your home?

Which Lord’s Day practice best represents your understanding of what is required by Scripture, and by derivation, your Confession?


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## Theognome

I am not comfortable making someone do non-essential vocational work on the Lord's Day, whether they are believers or not. If we're traveling, we pack a cooler.

Theognome


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Why would "focusing on God's thoughts and words" while violating the Sabbath make it Ok?


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## Blueridge Believer

Making some poor sinner work for me on the sabbath is a no-no.


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## Scott1

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Why would "focusing on God's thoughts and words" while violating the Sabbath make it Ok?



I'm not convinced this is biblically (or confessionally) correct, but this might be a way of looking at it:

8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations,
the focus must not be on work, sports, entertaining oneself, etc. That would mean conversation about those things as well as in one's mind

but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity
Since eating or food preparation is not prohibited per se and is in fact reasonably necessary

and mercy.
It might be merciful to feed someone outside (within context of focusing on the Lord)


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## Tripel

What if I take an exception to the WCF regarding the Sabbath? Should I abstain from the poll?


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## kvanlaan

As a general rule, we don't. If we are on vacation, we _might_ eat out once on a Sunday but try to eat in the two other meals.


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## Scott1

Tripel said:


> What if I take an exception to the WCF regarding the Sabbath? Should I abstain from the poll?



No,

options 4 or 6 are available but please explain so others may evaluate


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## Zenas

> Eating out is not ordinarily prohibited if one focuses on God (thoughts and words) while doing it.





> Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you *shall not do any work*, you, or your son, or your daughter, *your male servant, or your female servant*, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.





> And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban"' (that is, given to God)— then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."


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## Scott1

> *Zenas*
> Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.



Yes,
question though.

The work of food preparation, because the work is for an underlying necessity that cannot reasonably, ordinarily be done at another time (people ordinarily need to eat 3 times per day) is not prohibited per se, is it?



> Matthew 12
> 
> 1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and *began to pluck the ears of corn* and to eat.



Isn't this really food preparation? (not necessarily arguing it is, only asking)


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## Zenas

While food preparation is a necessity, is it a necessity that a man or maid servant do it for you?


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## HanleyBri

I assume you are referring to restaurants. 

The previous congregation where I was a member of had a tradition of going out to eat after Sunday morning worship. When we first visited the church we were invited to lunch, but they did not mention that it was at a restaurant. When we pulled into a restaurant, I was shocked and extremely disappointed, that those which called themselves reformed could behave in such a way. 

Yes - I have a big problem with the use of restaurants on the Lord's Day, when there is an alternate means of nourishment. I worked in the food service industry at the time I was saved. I lost my job - because I refused to work on Sunday. I was willing to lose my job to be faithful to God - and it's sickening to hear of Christians frequenting restaurants unnecessarily. Sunday is the big day for restaurants and the workers are often forced to work Sunday shifts. 

The Fifth Commandment is not only for the individual - but covers the servants. Restaurant works are today’s servants and instead of giving them the day off and allow them a proper rest - we treat them like second class citizens. We also make the day one of the most profitable days to work. One of the reasons it is such a big day is because 'Christians' go out to lunch. Just try inviting someone that works in the restaurant industry, to church on Sunday - and you know what they will tell you. They can't because they don't want to miss their best day of the week. 

The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## raekwon

What exactly qualifies as "focusing on God in thought and word" in this context? Like, would one have to talk about scripture or the sermon they'd just heard . . . or would something less "explicit", such as enjoying fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters with thankfulness in our hearts to God count as well?


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## OPC'n

I picked number two for this reason: if I go on vacation, I'm not going to refrain from sleeping in my hotel room in order to keep someone from working on the Sabbath and I cannot pack food in a cooler which would last that long. Another example is if you go on a cruise. You're sort of stuck on where you sleep and eat.


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## Scott1

> *HanleyBri *
> I lost my job - because I refused to work on Sunday


I admire the faithfulness God has given you. I believe I too have lost a job, or at least not been considered for one because of sabbath issues. (But God is faithful and provides, maybe something even better in time)



> Just try inviting someone that works, in the restaurant industry, to church on Sunday - and you know what they will tell you. They can't because they don't want to miss their best day of the week.


That's a good point. And someone who worked in that industry who became a Christian would need to stop working there Lord's Day.



> The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there was no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation goes a long way.



And I appreciate your carefulness in answer. That's why the poll says "ordinarily" because someone might find themselves stranded on the Lord's Day without, reasonably, a food provision.

I like the idea of reaching out to fellow Believers for a meal in a situation like that, and the very diligent advance preparation reflected there as well. Thank you.

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 09:56:12 EST-----



raekwon said:


> What exactly qualifies as "focusing on God in thought and word" in this context? Like, would one have to talk about scripture or the sermon they'd just heard . . . or would something less "explicit", such as enjoying fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters with thankfulness in our hearts to God count as well?



You're right- if can be difficult to precisely define, especially in light of trying to anticipate all possibilities.

Generally, I would take this at face value of requiring thought, word, and deed- discussion of God's Word, prayer, what the Westminster Standards call "religious talk. I would not understand it to be a focus on the enjoyment of "fellowship"- that might be an incident of seeking God through His Word and prayer together, but not the focus. Nor would a general "thankfulness" cut it either.

But, if someone takes a new member out to lunch, who they met by (providential) chance at church and were not prepared to feed, a person with questions about why we infant baptize and really focuses on that (and explains keeping the priority of Lord's Day worship), it might. One might also carefully choose the eating place to minimize distraction.

(Only trying to explain a possible basis for the poll option, not necessarily advocating it)


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## Dearly Bought

HanleyBri said:


> The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.



Exactly. I think it is shameful for a congregation to fail to invite travelers to their meals.


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## Tripel

I voted "other".

I'm not certain if eating out is prohibited by Scripture, but I don't think it is wise. As a general rule, we do not eat out on Sunday, just like we don't do a lot of things on Sunday (grocery shopping, fill up cars with gas, yard work, etc.). We plan ahead so that we don't have to do these things on Sunday.

There are two exceptions:

1) We occasionally get take-out on Sunday night, which is generally on the way home from church that evening. I don't have a good explanation for that, but for some reason I don't see that as big of a deal as Sunday lunch. I would say that it's a "sundown" principle, but that breaks down in that we don't "start" the Sabbath on Saturday's sundown. 

2)We make an exception when we are traveling. Maybe that is sinful on our part, but my conscience is clear on that one. We are not big travelers, so this is rarely even an issue. 

I guess my take on the 4th Commandment is that it is a matter of the heart. I feel like we consciously set that day aside as a special day of rest and gladness in the Lord. I clearly take exception to the WCF on this subject.


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## Knoxienne

What's easy to do is fall into (I've rationalized this way, sorry to say) is the pragmatism of "Well, employees in the restaurant are going to be working _anyway_". True.
But the command for _us_ is to not work nor make our servants work. We know how serious God is about this since he even commands us not to work our animals. I know a lot of us (us included) don't have livestock, but the argument from the lesser to the greater is clear - if God wants even our beasts to rest, how much more does he want people made in his image to rest? 

At the time we're using that table, these people who wait on us
are our servants, and we are the ones who are making them work. What others are doing is not the point. We're not responsible for other patrons, just ourselves. _We_ must follow God's commandments. 

Sometimes I wonder if the whole restaurant/Sabbath controversy would even be an issue if we as a culture weren't so into restaurants and eating out in the first place. I'm not saying we shouldn't patronize restaurants ( I love eating out) 
but they are a poor substitute for being in a brother's
home, being sheltered and nurtured there, partaking of the fruit of their hands and labors of love, sitting in the comfort of their hospitality and enjoying their fellowship.


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## Scott1

> *Tripe*l
> I guess my take on the 4th Commandment is that it is a matter of the heart. I feel like we consciously set that day aside as a special day of rest and gladness in the Lord. I clearly take exception to the WCF on this subject.



Your exceptions reflect careful thought about application.

However, I don't think keeping the commandment is merely or only a matter of the intentions of the heart. We rationalize much sin that way.

It is also one of the deed itself, including even the words themselves, and it seems that is what the Confessions are getting at "words and thoughts."

It sounds like your "exception" to the standards is to the recreation clause only though- Is that in light of your viewing it as recreation or
In light of your viewing that as requiring a worker to prepare a meal for you on Lord's Day?

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 10:22:39 EST-----



Zenas said:


> While food preparation is a necessity, is it a necessity that a man or maid servant do it for you?



One further question (good for lawyers to practice this way, and again, not necessarily advocating, only trying to clarify),

Accepting some food preparation is reasonably "necessary" Lord's Day, is it necessary the man's wife do it for everyone in the family and invited guests Lord's Day?

Is the work itself (which we agree is excepted by Scripture) required to be done by one (say a wife) on her Lord's Day but not permissible for someone else to do who would be paid for the same function?


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## Craig

I'm not a strict Sabbatarian (in theory I am, but in practice I follow a principle of grace/mercy)...there have been times where we found it of need to pick up some things on Sunday to complete a meal. Also, if we are invited out to eat by someone, we will choose to fellowship with them rather than not fellowship. A brother in Christ lives almost an hour away from our church, and he wants to take my family out to eat sometime after worship...he wants to bless us, and I'm not going to deny him on this...and we've tried inviting him over a number of times...his Sundays are erratic, and he'd rather take us out impromptu rather than have us prepare for his family only to have him need to back out (he's had to do that twice and we scrambled finding others to invite over).

Lastly, the Lord's Day is to be a pleasure...not something to fulfill begrudgingly (the Sabbath was made for man, not vice versa)...not that any of us could fulfill it...with that in mind, I do not think of things to avoid as much as I think of things best used to glorify God on the Lord's Day. I do think breaking bread in one's home is better than going out to eat...which is why we invite people into our home, not away from it. I also do not watch t.v. or go to movies or go shopping needlessly. These things, while entertaining, pale to the pleasure of rest afforded on this special day.

I agree, it is not "just any other day"...but it is not a day we laboriously try to keep from laboring on.


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## Tripel

Scott1 said:


> I don't think keeping the commandment is merely or only a matter of the intentions of the heart. We rationalize much sin that way.



That is a good point. I don't want to suggest that the actions themselves are unimportant, but rather that I don't think the commandment is intended to be a list of Do's and Do Not's. If only it were that easy. Every person should thoughtfully consider what the 4th commandment looks like in practice.



> It sounds like your "exception" to the standards is to the recreation clause only though- Is that in light of your viewing it as recreation or
> In light of your viewing that as requiring a worker to prepare a meal for you on Lord's Day?



Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:

1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations

2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.

Regarding eating out, I object to it due to the worker having to prepare it for me. Now, I think there are times when "necessity" comes into play, and I acknowledge that is a messy word. It's never a life or death situation for me to eat out on Sunday, so in that sense it is not a necessity...but that same reasoning can be applied to using heat and light at the church building. It's not REALLY necessary to be using those utilities.
Regarding the Sabbath, I prefer to use "common sense necessities" as a guideline. It is not necessary for my family to eat out at Sunday lunch because we can prepare it at home. When traveling, it is more difficult. Someone earlier mentioned hotels--that's a great example. It is very difficult to be out of town on a Sunday and not at some point be serviced by someone working a job. And I don't think we are required to be in our homes each and every Sunday. It's a common sense issue.


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## dbroyles

Theognome said:


> I am not comfortable making someone do non-essential vocational work on the Lord's Day, whether they are believers or not. If we're traveling, we pack a cooler.
> 
> Theognome



Ditto on the cooler idea. We recently visited a church in Columbia, SC (2 hour drive) in order to witness the covenant baptism of our friends' 4th child. We then attended a funeral of a dear friend near Columbia at 1:00pm. The only option that made sense to us was packing the cooler with enough food for the day. The benefits were keeping the 4th commandment, the provision of an ample low-cost food supply, the immediate availability of the food (rather than wasting precious time on the Lord's Day looking for restaurants), and we had a rather enjoyable time as a family picnicking on the grass reflecting on God's covenant faithfulness in both life and in death.


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## Zenas

Scott:

The obvious difference is payment for services, and that's where the distinction turns and your question is answered.


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## Skyler

I misread the poll and accidentally voted for the wrong one.

I don't see that eating out is prohibited on the Sabbath. I have no conviction against it; I do think, though, that we should be focusing on God on the Sabbath.


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## Zenas

Jonathan,

How would you answer the quotes I provided?


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## kvanlaan

I know many would see it as going overboard, but I think a lot of this reasoning has to do with why many in the Dutch tradition eat soup and buns for their hot Sunday meal: soup is prepared on Saturday, and the meal, while hearty and filling, is done with minimal preparation on the Lord's Day. I think that is why, for many from this tradition, the thought of restaurants on the Lord's Day is so repellant. When you, within your understanding of the Lord's Day, make an effort to reduce food preparation labour on the Sabbath, but are then confronted with the idea of having a team of people labour and serve you so that you can have one meal, it is an offensive idea.


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## Herald

I decided to give the question posed in the OP some deliberate thought before responding.

It seems to me that within the group of those who hold to a confessional view of the Sabbath, there is not a definitive list of do's and don'ts. Eating at a restaurant is one such area of debate. 

I believe most of us are in agreement that the Sabbath is a holy day set aside for the worship of God, fellowship, acts of mercy and works of necessity. How the parts are interpreted and practiced is the source of debate among confessional believers. Sharing individual convictions is helpful, but not binding. Is there a statement about Sabbath observance that will serve to bring confessional believers together in agreement? 

I am convinced that the guiding principle behind Christian observance of the technical aspects of the Sabbath is the Word of God and conscience. I am going on the assumption that setting the day aside is a given among confessional believers. That said, the works of necessity and mercy may differ based on the teaching and understanding of the Word, and conscience. I may never darken the doorway of a restaurant on the Lord's Day while another brother holds to a contrary view. Both of us set the day aside in order to worship God and rest from our labors, but we have differring levels of conviction as to how the parts are defined that make up the whole.

In the absence of clearly defined rules, I am willing to extend liberty to my brother with whom I disagree.


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## Scott1

> *Tripel*
> 
> Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:
> 
> 1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations
> 
> 2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.



So, are you understanding that you may think about, talk about your job on the Lord's Day (or are you referring only to the "recreation" part of the clause)?

And, is that a derivation of your understanding that the whole day is not required to be separated to focus on God, exceptions for necessity and mercy being allowed?

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 11:22:18 EST-----



Zenas said:


> Scott:
> 
> The obvious difference is payment for services, and that's where the distinction turns and your question is answered.



One final question, to clarify:

If someone did have a domestic worker (e.g. "nanny"), I assume it would be a violation for them to make food for the family or a child that day, is that correct?

However, it would not be a violation if the wife prepared the food for the family, guests, and the nanny?

(this is a real situation for some people following this)


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## Tripel

Scott1 said:


> *Tripel*
> 
> Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:
> 
> 1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations
> 
> 2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, are you understanding that you may think about, talk about your job on the Lord's Day (or are you referring only to the "recreation" part of the clause)?
> 
> And, is that a derivation of your understanding that the whole day is not required to be separated to focus on God, exceptions for necessity and mercy being allowed?
Click to expand...


Yes, I am saying that I may think about or talk about my job. I think it is completely unrealistic and legalistic (I mean that in a respectful way, honest I do) to insist that I can only think about and speak about God, his Word, and worship. If my wife asks if I want to take leftovers to work the next day, I'm not going to rebuke her. And if I express to her that work has been difficult lately, I expect that she sympathize with me rather than ignore me. 

My family spends more time together on Sunday than any other day of the week, and I'm sure that's the case for most people. I love Sundays, because I feel like our fellowship is sweet. We take afternoon walks, sometimes take naps, and we catch up on all sorts of things. The day is very much set apart--we worship and we rest.


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## Zenas

Scott:

Correct.


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## Knoxienne

kvanlaan said:


> I know many would see it as going overboard, but I think a lot of this reasoning has to do with why many in the Dutch tradition eat soup and buns for their hot Sunday meal: soup is prepared on Saturday, and the meal, while hearty and filling, is done with minimal preparation on the Lord's Day. I think that is why, for many from this tradition, the thought of restaurants on the Lord's Day is so repellant. When you, within your understanding of the Lord's Day, make an effort to reduce food preparation labour on the Sabbath, but are then confronted with the idea of having a team of people labour and serve you so that you can have one meal, it is an offensive idea.



Very good point.


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## Tripel

What is the definition of a "Sabbatarian"? Do adherents of the WCF have a monopoly on the term? I've only recently been made aware of the term, but it would seem to me that it represents those who abide by the 4th Commandment.


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## Scott1

Tripel said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tripel*
> 
> Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:
> 
> 1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations
> 
> 2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, are you understanding that you may think about, talk about your job on the Lord's Day (or are you referring only to the "recreation" part of the clause)?
> 
> And, is that a derivation of your understanding that the whole day is not required to be separated to focus on God, exceptions for necessity and mercy being allowed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I am saying that I may think about or talk about my job. I think it is completely unrealistic and legalistic (I mean that in a respectful way, honest I do) to insist that I can only think about and speak about God, his Word, and worship. If my wife asks if I want to take leftovers to work the next day, I'm not going to rebuke her. And if I express to her that work has been difficult lately, I expect that she sympathize with me rather than ignore me.
> 
> My family spends more time together on Sunday than any other day of the week, and I'm sure that's the case for most people. I love Sundays, because I feel like our fellowship is sweet. We take afternoon walks, sometimes take naps, and we catch up on all sorts of things. The day is very much set apart--we worship and we rest.
Click to expand...




> Exodus 20
> 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> 
> 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> 
> 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:





> Yes, I am saying that I may think about or talk about my job.



I see why you would request a broad exception, because of this.

This goes to the heart of what the commandment is... cease from labor as we are preoccupied with labor the rest of the days He gives.

It seems the commandment really is talking about us resting (ceasing) from our ordinary employment and by derivation, not pre-occupying our minds and words with it (as we do the other six days)


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## jwithnell

Someone broached on this, but I think it is fairly central to the discussion -- when the sabbath law is summarized in the 10 commandments, just about every group known to human existence was listed as being required to rest -- even your servants or the stranger that is is within your gates (who potentially is not even a believer). I haven't counted the words, but this commandment gets more verbiage than most others, and I think that is significant -- it's almost like a lawyer wrote this, looking to close all the possible loopholes. We do know from other passages (and Christ's example) that works of necessity and mercy are OK. 

So, what do we do with all this. As a general practice, I think eating out on the Lord's Day should be avoided. Some have already mentioned some good strategies. I'd add trying to change the timing of your trip.

However, traveling mercies (on a longer trip) could involve eating out -- at one time in this country, it was common for "necessary" businesses in a community to take turns being open to serve travelers. (I vaguely recall this with gas stations in the town where I lived as a small child.) Some times, you just can't avoid this -- more than a few times during fire season, I've been in travel status on Sunday. I'd have been in a world of hurt if I hadn't been able to find someplace to eat.


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## Tripel

I know. I was just looking for clarity. If "Sabbatarian" is NOT a WCF term, than I can see how the "strict" qualifier is appropriate. Two people both abide by the 4th commandment, but one is more strict about it. 

If Sabbatarian IS a WCF term, than I agree with you that you either follow the WCF or you don't.


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## Herald

> Now, for practical points, I wish that Churches would be more mindful of the Sabbath, not only because of the 4th Commandment, but because of people who live alone, or who travel far to go to Church, etc. It would be a wise, loving, and beneficial practice for Churches to make the Lord's Day more conducive to Sabbath keeping. For example, having a meal at the Church between services. Always making sure there's extra food available (each family can/should chip in) in case of visitors. In my humble opinion, small things like this can lend a big hand to those who might be otherwise distracted/tempted to not keep the Sabbath holy.



Josh, I concur. But what of the church that does not have a dedicated building in which to have such a fellowship meal? There is a brother in our church who was just laid off from his job. He rents a room and is semi-estranged from his family. Money is tight for this brother. Is it a violation of the Sabbath to take him out for a meal after morning worship? Many sabbatarians would say it is a violation. Others would place that under an act of mercy. But your main point in that paragraph I quoted is sound. Churches should make the Lord's Day more conducive to Sabbath keeping.


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## DonP

David harvesting was not hiring some one to harvest for him, same with eating shew bread. This was a matter of life and death they were starving not missing one meal. 
They did not take more than they needed to eat, they did not sell it to others, it was not commercial or business. 

Now many in history when walking from town to town would stay at Inns and the innkeeper as part of lodging would provide a meal. This may have been more like a bed and breakfast and he feeding guests on the Lord's day in his own home, yet it still was for pay. Hard to say the pay was only for lodging and the meal free??

So is paying for a motel and making them provide services that day legal? And if a motel is why not a restaurant?

Just because a cruise line provides Sunday trips doesn't mean this is an activity a Christian should choose. But then is it just another Inn with free meals? 

And if traveling and if we believe we are not to make someone else work for money, then why not fast if no one invites you over to eat? I always check ahead to find a reformed church in the area will be traveling and ask if someone could host me for meals so I can keep the sabbath, then I promptly go back to my paid hotel room where the maid has been paid to work and make my bed. 
I will admit there have been times I have chosen not to fast and when no hospitality ws available I went to a Buffet since though I paid the owner for being open, the food was already made, I waited on myself and did not require anyone much work, maybe wash my dish and collect the money. Early on in my life before I was as clear on this I thought it would be good to take my wife to a buffet so she could rest from her work. But eventually she usually prepares a meal ahead or we have leftovers. I do dishes or we leave them and she wont let me cook usually but occasionally I do.

All I can say is I have made the effort to avoid as much unnecessary work as possible. 

I know a pastor who says, if an unregenerate chooses to work on the Lord's day at a restaurant that is his choice, I am not making him work by going there. So he feels free to go? 

I feel as many of the posters that even were that so, I am still buying a commercial service and promoting the owner to do business on the Lord's day. Shall I also encourage him to steal because I don't? I am my brothers keeper. 

God is pretty clear on this, here is a man who forgot to gather his sticks for fire ahead of time. It is like the manna they were to gather ahead not even go collect the manna on the Sabbath for free themselves. Gather ahead, prepare so only a real necessity is necessary. If your ox falls in a ditch pull him out. If he keeps falling in a ditch on the Lord's day, fill the ditch or sell the ox!! 
Reminds me of a pastor whose son asked if he could take a job working for a dairy where he would have to milk the cows out of necessity on the Lord's day. The father said well it is a necessity for the owner of the cow, do you believe this is your calling in life to be a dairyman. The boy found another job not requiring work on the Lord's day.
Num 15:29-36
29 You shall have one law for him who* sins unintentionally*, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them. 
30 'But the person who does *anything presumptuously,* whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'" 
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 

35 Then the LORD said to Moses,"The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. NKJV

I would say God does not take this command lightly, He does not allow for a lot of liberty, He expects us to prepare and not make mistakes so we can say we have an emergency or necessity. a necessity should be out of our control. 

Now what about paying for travel on the Lord's day so you can get back to church and worship, or paying to take the bus to get to church, paying for a hotel is it a necessity, 
and participating in other men's sins. Like watching TV or pro football??

I love these though provoking discussions and to hear as all of you wrestle through these issues as I have done and continue to do. 


By the way when I do find a family who takes me in overnight on the Lord's day and feeds me I usually leave them a cash gift when I leave, not a payment. What do you think? Did I rob them of any reward, or add double to them? I only had one bother to return it, though all say it wasn't necessary. 

And do we give our tithe or an extra offering to the church we visit or does it go to our home church? I think pay where you feed? So I give an extra offering to them. 

Love having my own business so no one can fire me for not working on the Lord's day. I think we all should if we can! 1 Cor 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. NKJV


----------



## Herald

> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what of the church that does not have a dedicated building in which to have such a fellowship meal? There is a brother in our church who was just laid off from his job. He rents a room and is semi-estranged from his family. Money is tight for this brother. Is it a violation of the Sabbath to take him out for a meal after morning worship? Many sabbatarians would say it is a violation. Others would place that under an act of mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say, "Why not invite him to your home for sandwiches?" Or bring some PB, Jelly, and Bread to church and go to a park afterward (weather permitting) and have a lunch. There are other more preferable practices to be exhausted before resorting to restaurant visitation.
Click to expand...


Josh, I'm not arguing with you, but can you see where brothers, who approach the Sabbath in good faith, can have differing convictions? If a brother is hard on cash and living by himself, it may seem rather unloving to offer him a PBJ sandwich. Yes, a member inviting them to their home for a meal is certainly a great option (actually, it's preferable). 

I'm not writing this to defend going out to a restaurant, just as I'm not advocating going to a birthday party of a family member. I have my own opinion, and I'm keeping that to myself for the purpose of this discussion. What I'm trying to get into the discussion is that there are believers who genuinely disagree on what constitutes an act of mercy and necessity, while completely convinced they are honoring the Lord's Day. I am not referring to those who do not set the day aside, as is commanded in scripture.


----------



## ww

I observe the Lord's Day and occasionally eat out on Sunday.


----------



## Herald

whitway said:


> I observe the Lord's Day and occasionally eat out on Sunday.



Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?


----------



## Scottish Lass

We sometimes need to travel after worship--we have denominational business that occasionally begins on Mondays. We're a good six hours from the two common locations (usually Memphis and south of Asheville, NC), so we sometimes pack a cooler, and we usually try for rest areas/vending machines to supplement. Have we stopped and eaten out on Sunday on trips like this? Yes, but it's rarer as time goes on.


----------



## ww

Herald said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I observe the Lord's Day and occasionally eat out on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?
Click to expand...


I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.


----------



## DonP

Why has this not been so clear to us over the years? 
God laid it out pretty clear. 
After He killed the man who picked up sticks I doubt too many asked if it was OK to gather rocks for a fire so they could eat or to just finish up that last bit of sewing on a robe to sell their neighbor etc. 

As for talking about your work, I think it means doing business not telling your wife yes you want a lunch packed. But I would not want to go into a long discussion about all my problems at work with her that day either. A simple i am having a rough time at work would suffice for the lord's day. 
Its kind of like the Lord's supper. 
Have you not homes to eat in? This isn't the place to have an abundance which can make some feel bad. Just bring an average amount and eat 1st at home if you are that hungry. 

Duh?? 
No offense I am meaning this should be a Duh to us but we have to wrestle through it As Paul had to explain this to his people. 

Isn't there room for some common sense here?

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 12:47:05 EST-----



whitway said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I observe the Lord's Day and occasionally eat out on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.
Click to expand...


So is your conscience still open to change or is it a done and settled matter for you?


----------



## ww

PeaceMaker said:


> Why has this not been so clear to us over the years?
> God laid it out pretty clear.
> After He killed the man who picked up sticks I doubt too many asked if it was OK to gather rocks for a fire so they could eat or to just finish up that last bit of sewing on a robe to sell their neighbor etc.
> 
> As for talking about your work, I think it means doing business not telling your wife yes you want a lunch packed. But I would not want to go into a long discussion about all my problems at work with her that day either. A simple i am having a rough time at work would suffice for the lord's day.
> Its kind of like the Lord's supper.
> Have you not homes to eat in? This isn't the place to have an abundance which can make some feel bad. Just bring an average amount and eat 1st at home if you are that hungry.
> 
> Duh??
> No offense I am meaning this should be a Duh to us but we have to wrestle through it As Paul had to explain this to his people.
> 
> Isn't there room for some common sense here?
> 
> -----Added 3/31/2009 at 12:47:05 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So is your conscience still open to change or is it a done and settled matter for you?
Click to expand...


I have always been open to instruction especially as it relates to learning Theology within the context of the Church however probably not going to be convinced of anything different based on an internet discussion.

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 01:11:30 EST-----

So for those who do not believe it is appropriate to eat out under any circumstances can I assume you always travel during the week and never on Sunday and/or pack your coolers if you were to travel on Sunday, never travel far enough that would cause you to get gasoline, and never stay in a Motel or any establishment that would cause others to work on your behalf?


----------



## Beth Ellen Nagle

I would think sometimes travel is necessary and provision for lodging necessary?


----------



## Zenas

Herald said:


> Now, for practical points, I wish that Churches would be more mindful of the Sabbath, not only because of the 4th Commandment, but because of people who live alone, or who travel far to go to Church, etc. It would be a wise, loving, and beneficial practice for Churches to make the Lord's Day more conducive to Sabbath keeping. For example, having a meal at the Church between services. Always making sure there's extra food available (each family can/should chip in) in case of visitors. In my humble opinion, small things like this can lend a big hand to those who might be otherwise distracted/tempted to not keep the Sabbath holy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Josh, I concur. But what of the church that does not have a dedicated building in which to have such a fellowship meal? There is a brother in our church who was just laid off from his job. He rents a room and is semi-estranged from his family. Money is tight for this brother. Is it a violation of the Sabbath to take him out for a meal after morning worship? Many sabbatarians would say it is a violation. Others would place that under an act of mercy. But your main point in that paragraph I quoted is sound. Churches should make the Lord's Day more conducive to Sabbath keeping.
Click to expand...


My wife's family will invite people over in order to prevent them from eating out and rather eating a home-cooked meal, made from necessity and not for monetary gain.


----------



## ww

Beth Ellen Nagle said:


> I would think sometimes travel is necessary and provision for lodging necessary?



So by not eating out or at the Motel and packing a cooler while at the Motel you are minimizing more work being done on your behalf? Would this be a correct assumption?


----------



## Idelette

A couple of people have mentioned the need to eat out while traveling or on vacation (as an exception). And I'm not sure that I'd agree....a vacation is not a necessity nor is it commanded in Scripture ,however, _keeping the Lord's day Holy_ is! As one person already mentioned that includes choosing your activities wisely and what type of vacations you go on. Personally, when I travel I have always made it a point to plan ahead and prepare well in advance so that I am staying with someone on the Sabbath (even when I've traveled overseas). And I've made it a point to plan in such a way that I can prepare my own meals the night before or make arrangements for someone to have me over. 

I don't believe setting the day apart begins on Sunday morning or even Saturday at that matter...I believe it is something that we ought to work towards and look forward to throughout the week! We ought to be planning and preparing well in advance to set that day apart in our hearts, minds, and practical lives. The puritans often talked about how meeting for worship as a congregation is a picture of heaven...a shadow of worshipping with saints in the heavenly realms...and so this is something we ought to strive towards throughout the week! I think how we set the day apart reflects how much we've prepared in advance and how seriously we have taken the Sabbath!


----------



## ww

> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> So for those who do not believe it is appropriate to eat out _under any circumstances_ . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Who here has asserted this?
Click to expand...


Let me clarify, for those who chose that it is not permissible and did not select except when traveling away from home?


----------



## Knoxienne

whitway said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why has this not been so clear to us over the years?
> God laid it out pretty clear.
> After He killed the man who picked up sticks I doubt too many asked if it was OK to gather rocks for a fire so they could eat or to just finish up that last bit of sewing on a robe to sell their neighbor etc.
> 
> As for talking about your work, I think it means doing business not telling your wife yes you want a lunch packed. But I would not want to go into a long discussion about all my problems at work with her that day either. A simple i am having a rough time at work would suffice for the lord's day.
> Its kind of like the Lord's supper.
> Have you not homes to eat in? This isn't the place to have an abundance which can make some feel bad. Just bring an average amount and eat 1st at home if you are that hungry.
> 
> Duh??
> No offense I am meaning this should be a Duh to us but we have to wrestle through it As Paul had to explain this to his people.
> 
> Isn't there room for some common sense here?
> 
> -----Added 3/31/2009 at 12:47:05 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is your conscience still open to change or is it a done and settled matter for you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have always been open to instruction especially as it relates to learning Theology within the context of the Church however probably not going to be convinced of anything different based on an internet discussion.
> 
> -----Added 3/31/2009 at 01:11:30 EST-----
> 
> So for those who do not believe it is appropriate to eat out under any circumstances can I assume you always travel during the week and never on Sunday and/or pack your coolers if you were to travel on Sunday, never travel far enough that would cause you to get gasoline, and never stay in a Motel or any establishment that would cause others to work on your behalf?
Click to expand...


I'm not going to say "it's wrong to eat out under any circumstances" in the sense of I'm not going to rebuke my brother for doing it, because we've done it and that's hypocritical. Sometimes it just works out where folks who love the Lord eat in a restaurant on a Sunday. What I will say is that it's a good goal of sanctification to work toward "not doing it" so that other options can be explored and we can be blessed through those.


----------



## Beth Ellen Nagle

whitway said:


> Beth Ellen Nagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think sometimes travel is necessary and provision for lodging necessary?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So by not eating out or at the Motel and packing a cooler while at the Motel you are minimizing more work being done on your behalf? Would this be a correct assumption?
Click to expand...


I was thinking more in line with post #36. Ideally, I think there should be some provision for necessary travels, eating but that would be set up so differently. Well, just thinking.


----------



## Houston E.

It seems we're getting pretty specific at times as to what constitutes breaking the commandment, so I ask (seriously) this question?

Do we not have to factor in time? Do we begin observance at sunset of Saturday, and end sunset on Sunday? Or is it when we get up that morning, etc...??


----------



## Houston E.

> Houston E. said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems we're getting pretty specific at times as to what constitutes breaking the commandment, so I ask (seriously) this question?
> 
> Do we not have to factor in time? Do we begin observance at sunset of Saturday, and end sunset on Sunday? Or is it when we get up that morning, etc...??
> 
> 
> 
> Pastor, I think this would be better suited as a separate thread, unless I'm missing its germaneness to the thrust of the thread (which is very much possible)?
Click to expand...


May need to be...my thought was if we're going to get specific in terms of "eating out" or "buying gas" or "staying in a hotel", and that these are commandment breakers, then we may need to define exactly when the Sabbath begins and ends.


----------



## Herald

whitway said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I observe the Lord's Day and occasionally eat out on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.
Click to expand...


Wayne, I don't want to be accused of stradling the fence or holding to a diminished view of the Sabbath. I take the observence of the Sabbath as a command, not an option. It's a command to enjoy our God, not endure Him. Sadly, because of deficient teaching in the church, enduring God seems to be the pinnacle of worship.

I consider myself in complete intellectual agreement with my confession, although I continue to find areas that need changes in my level of obedience. I am not prepared to have an exhaustive list of Sabbath requirements (nor do I accuse my brothers and sisters in this thread of advocating such). I am willing to extend liberty in the arena of mercy and necessity under the caveat that the heart attitude is not one of selishness. 

I will teach to my church that the Lord's Day is holy, and it is to be set aside completely for the reasons stated in the confessions. I will teach that it is far better not to go to restaurants; not out of fear of violating the Sabbath, but because it could possibly distract the believer from enjoying their rest in Christ. But as no two believers are equal in their level of sanctification, I cannot forbid a saint from obeying their conscience. This is a far cry from my days of self indulgence on the Lord's Day. It is all part of my own sanctification.

God speed to you, good brother.


----------



## ww

Herald said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, does this vex your conscience at all? Are you at peace with this within your view as a sabbatarian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say I'm at peace and the only time I've ever wrestled with it is when my brothers and sisters in the Lord who did not believe it was permissible tried to convince me otherwise (this is way in the past when briefly attending a Reformed Baptist Church). However I came to the conclusion that if I observed the Lord's Day exactly the way they wanted me to I was violating my conscience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wayne, I don't want to be accused of stradling the fence or holding to a diminished view of the Sabbath. I take the observence of the Sabbath as a command, not an option. It's a command to enjoy our God, not endure Him. Sadly, because of deficient teaching in the church, enduring God seems to be the pinnacle of worship.
> 
> I consider myself in complete intellectual agreement with my confession, although I continue to find areas that need changes in my level of obedience. I am not prepared to have an exhaustive list of Sabbath requirements (nor do I accuse my brothers and sisters in this thread of advocating such). I am willing to extend liberty in the arena of mercy and necessity under the caveat that the heart attitude is not one of selishness.
> 
> I will teach to my church that the Lord's Day is holy, and it is to be set aside completely for the reasons stated in the confessions. I will teach that it is far better not to go to restaurants; not out of fear of violating the Sabbath, but because it could possibly distract the believer from enjoying their rest in Christ. But as no two believers are equal in their level of sanctification, I cannot forbid a saint from obeying their conscience. This is a far cry from my days of self indulgence on the Lord's Day. It is all part of my own sanctification.
> 
> God speed to you, good brother.
Click to expand...


 To you as well Bill!


----------



## ericfromcowtown

I voted "not ordinarily permitted, but okay when travelling" because that's what we do, not because I believe that I can back up that practice biblically.


----------



## ww

Knoxienne said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why has this not been so clear to us over the years?
> God laid it out pretty clear.
> After He killed the man who picked up sticks I doubt too many asked if it was OK to gather rocks for a fire so they could eat or to just finish up that last bit of sewing on a robe to sell their neighbor etc.
> 
> As for talking about your work, I think it means doing business not telling your wife yes you want a lunch packed. But I would not want to go into a long discussion about all my problems at work with her that day either. A simple i am having a rough time at work would suffice for the lord's day.
> Its kind of like the Lord's supper.
> Have you not homes to eat in? This isn't the place to have an abundance which can make some feel bad. Just bring an average amount and eat 1st at home if you are that hungry.
> 
> Duh??
> No offense I am meaning this should be a Duh to us but we have to wrestle through it As Paul had to explain this to his people.
> 
> Isn't there room for some common sense here?
> 
> -----Added 3/31/2009 at 12:47:05 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> So is your conscience still open to change or is it a done and settled matter for you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have always been open to instruction especially as it relates to learning Theology within the context of the Church however probably not going to be convinced of anything different based on an internet discussion.
> 
> -----Added 3/31/2009 at 01:11:30 EST-----
> 
> So for those who do not believe it is appropriate to eat out under any circumstances can I assume you always travel during the week and never on Sunday and/or pack your coolers if you were to travel on Sunday, never travel far enough that would cause you to get gasoline, and never stay in a Motel or any establishment that would cause others to work on your behalf?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to say "it's wrong to eat out under any circumstances" in the sense of I'm not going to rebuke my brother for doing it, because we've done it and that's hypocritical. Sometimes it just works out where folks who love the Lord eat in a restaurant on a Sunday. What I will say is that it's a good goal of sanctification to work toward "not doing it" so that other options can be explored and we can be blessed through those.
Click to expand...


Thanks Toni! I appreciate that candid and well balanced approach.

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 02:43:57 EST-----



> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who here has asserted this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me clarify, for those who chose that it is not permissible and did not select except when traveling away from home?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because "traveling away from home" does not necessitate "must eat out." Just as Yvonne mentioned above, all travel is not emergency, spur-of-the-moment travel. Thus, things can and should be _planned_. If traveling, ask:
> 
> 1. Where will I be on the Lord's Day?
> 2. I should ask folks about Confessional Churches in this area.
> 3. Call the Pastor of one of those. Ask if there's a Lord's Day lunch, or if there's a place where you and your family might stay and eat a packed lunch. Ask if he can host you.
> 4. etc.
Click to expand...


Thanks Josh!


----------



## Marrow Man

To piggy back off the "traveling necessitating eating out" perspective: perhaps those of us who are "home" most Lord's Days can be especially sensitive to this with out-of-town visitors. Make sure they always have a place to eat lunch, for instance. There have been plenty of occasions where we have unexpected visitors for worship (who were out-of-town) and we've invited them home for lunch with us. On one occasion we had three Gideons eat lunch with us while we were entertaining another family (who we knew were coming). It wasn't easy, but we made it work. One of the Gideons later told me that they go and speak at churches all the time, and almost _never _do they get invited to lunch.

My  -- Too many Christians have lost sight of the service of hospitality, and this is one of the factors that contributed to the rise of restaurants being open on the Lord's Day.


----------



## Knoxienne

Marrow Man said:


> To piggy back off the "traveling necessitating eating out" perspective: perhaps those of us who are "home" most Lord's Days can be especially sensitive to this with out-of-town visitors. Make sure they always have a place to eat lunch, for instance. There have been plenty of occasions where we have unexpected visitors for worship (who were out-of-town) and we've invited them home for lunch with us. On one occasion we had three Gideons eat lunch with us while we were entertaining another family (who we knew were coming). It wasn't easy, but we made it work. One of the Gideons later told me that they go and speak at churches all the time, and almost _never _do they get invited to lunch.
> 
> My  -- Too many Christians have lost sight of the service of hospitality, and this is one of the factors that contributed to the rise of restaurants being open on the Lord's Day.



You are absolutely right. I would also add the same is true for the hotel/motel industry.


----------



## ww

I grew up in PA and wouldn't have had a choice during these times. 

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/NASSH_Proceedings/NP1973/NP1973g.pdf

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 03:18:53 EST-----



Marrow Man said:


> To piggy back off the "traveling necessitating eating out" perspective: perhaps those of us who are "home" most Lord's Days can be especially sensitive to this with out-of-town visitors. Make sure they always have a place to eat lunch, for instance. There have been plenty of occasions where we have unexpected visitors for worship (who were out-of-town) and we've invited them home for lunch with us. On one occasion we had three Gideons eat lunch with us while we were entertaining another family (who we knew were coming). It wasn't easy, but we made it work. One of the Gideons later told me that they go and speak at churches all the time, and almost _never _do they get invited to lunch.
> 
> My  -- Too many Christians have lost sight of the service of hospitality, and this is one of the factors that contributed to the rise of restaurants being open on the Lord's Day.



"Hospitality is not the same as routine friendliness to our own circle." RJ Rushdoony.


----------



## DonP

Knoxienne said:


> You are absolutely right. I would also add the same is true for the hotel/motel industry.



OK now you are stepping on my toes. 

so what do I do when I travel on business and do not know people to stay with over the Lord's day, so that I don't travel home on that day?? 

And what about commercial travel, air, bus, bus or subway to church, lets get it all out. 

Here or another thread. I would also like to talk about that when is the Lord's day thing, 
cause I am thinking to go by the laws of my land as opposed to the Jewish calendar. I think we rest the day, during the normal time we would be working. We rest from our normal labor. Though I submit to the confessional, whole day language and since I sleep nearly 1/3 of the 24 the issue is only with what 16 hours. dusk to dusk or dawn to dawn or just dawn to dusk, unless you are a graveyard shift worker, then I say you pick it! I doubt that it matters.


----------



## Knoxienne

PeaceMaker said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right. I would also add the same is true for the hotel/motel industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK now you are stepping on my toes.
> 
> so what do I do when I travel on business and do not know people to stay with over the Lord's day, so that I don't travel home on that day??
> 
> And what about commercial travel, air, bus, bus or subway to church, lets get it all out.
> 
> Here or another thread. I would also like to talk about that when is the Lord's day thing,
> cause I am thinking to go by the laws of my land as opposed to the Jewish calendar. I think we rest the day, during the normal time we would be working. We rest from our normal labor. Though I submit to the confessional, whole day language and since I sleep nearly 1/3 of the 24 the issue is only with what 16 hours. dusk to dusk or dawn to dawn or just dawn to dusk, unless you are a graveyard shift worker, then I say you pick it! I doubt that it matters.
Click to expand...


No, I don't want to step on your toes!  Again, I'm not saying it's a sin in and of itself to use a restaurant or a hotel on the Lord's Day. It isn't always possible to stay at someone's home.


----------



## DonP

Knoxienne said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't want to step on your toes!  Again, I'm not saying it's a sin in and of itself to use a restaurant or a hotel on the Lord's Day. It isn't always possible to stay at someone's home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its Ok you can step on them, it isn't a bad thing. I need them stepped on. And I am open to reconsider all of this.
> 
> I was just instructed about Innkeepers and this was permitted. We aren't expected to sleep out int he snow or unsafe places but buying food or restaurant use they say is not such a necessity.
> 
> So fire away anyone. I want to be sharpened.
Click to expand...


----------



## PresbyDane

I have never thought about this
We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee


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## Scottish Lass

Re4mdant said:


> I have never thought about this
> We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee



Cool!


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## Marrow Man

Re4mdant said:


> I have never thought about this
> We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee



See, Martin, living in the U.S. isn't all peaches and cream. We have a different set of issues to work through. The gentle simplicity of what you have mentioned is wonderful.


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## Knoxienne

Re4mdant said:


> I have never thought about this
> We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee



That sounds wonderful. Do the Danish like their coffee strong like the Dutch and other Europeans? Dutch folks make wonderful coffee.


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## ww

In His Grip said:


> A couple of people have mentioned the need to eat out while traveling or on vacation (as an exception). And I'm not sure that I'd agree....a vacation is not a necessity nor is it commanded in Scripture ,however, _keeping the Lord's day Holy_ is! As one person already mentioned that includes choosing your activities wisely and what type of vacations you go on. Personally, when I travel I have always made it a point to plan ahead and prepare well in advance so that I am staying with someone on the Sabbath (even when I've traveled overseas). And I've made it a point to plan in such a way that I can prepare my own meals the night before or make arrangements for someone to have me over.
> 
> I don't believe setting the day apart begins on Sunday morning or even Saturday at that matter...I believe it is something that we ought to work towards and look forward to throughout the week! We ought to be planning and preparing well in advance to set that day apart in our hearts, minds, and practical lives. The puritans often talked about how meeting for worship as a congregation is a picture of heaven...a shadow of worshipping with saints in the heavenly realms...and so this is something we ought to strive towards throughout the week! I think how we set the day apart reflects how much we've prepared in advance and how seriously we have taken the Sabbath!



Here's another perspective:

*"It is fitting that the new covenant radically alters the Sabbath perspective. The current believer in Christ does not follow the Sabbath pattern of the people of the old covenant. He does not first labor six days, looking hopefully toward rest. Instead, he begins the week by rejoicing in the rest already accomplished by the cosmic event of Christ's resurrection. Then he enters joyfully into his six days of labor, confident of success through the victory which Christ has already won."*

O Palmer Robertson in *"Christ of the Covenants."*

Would anyone consider this quote an *unconfessional* statement?


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## jaybird0827

Theognome said:


> I am not comfortable making someone do non-essential vocational work on the Lord's Day, whether they are believers or not. If we're traveling, we pack a cooler.
> 
> Theognome





My sentiments exactly. And unless we're staying in someone's home, we make every effort to return home in time for the Lord's Day.


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## Rich Koster

Is the day 12:00 to 12:00 or sundown to sundown?


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## kvanlaan

> My wife's family will invite people over in order to prevent them from eating out and rather eating a home-cooked meal, *made from necessity and not for monetary gain.*



And done as a charitable service to others... very nice! *That* is sabbath-keeping done right!


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## DonP

Rich Koster said:


> Is the day 12:00 to 12:00 or sundown to sundown?



In the NT it must be sun up to sun up because Christ arose or was seen in the dawn, right?. So we have to change it like we change the day.


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## Marrow Man

Rich Koster said:


> Is the day 12:00 to 12:00 or sundown to sundown?



Rich, Josh called our attention in # 61 to the fact that this sort of question strays a bit from the OP and might be better served by posting a separate thread.


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## kvanlaan

> That sounds wonderful. Do the Danish like their coffee strong like the Dutch and other Europeans? Dutch folks make wonderful coffee.



Yes, yes, we do (thank you!) I am no longer asked to make coffee at the office, the others take offense at its strength.


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## Idelette

whitway said:


> In His Grip said:
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of people have mentioned the need to eat out while traveling or on vacation (as an exception). And I'm not sure that I'd agree....a vacation is not a necessity nor is it commanded in Scripture ,however, _keeping the Lord's day Holy_ is! As one person already mentioned that includes choosing your activities wisely and what type of vacations you go on. Personally, when I travel I have always made it a point to plan ahead and prepare well in advance so that I am staying with someone on the Sabbath (even when I've traveled overseas). And I've made it a point to plan in such a way that I can prepare my own meals the night before or make arrangements for someone to have me over.
> 
> I don't believe setting the day apart begins on Sunday morning or even Saturday at that matter...I believe it is something that we ought to work towards and look forward to throughout the week! We ought to be planning and preparing well in advance to set that day apart in our hearts, minds, and practical lives. The puritans often talked about how meeting for worship as a congregation is a picture of heaven...a shadow of worshipping with saints in the heavenly realms...and so this is something we ought to strive towards throughout the week! I think how we set the day apart reflects how much we've prepared in advance and how seriously we have taken the Sabbath!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another perspective:
> 
> *"It is fitting that the new covenant radically alters the Sabbath perspective. The current believer in Christ does not follow the Sabbath pattern of the people of the old covenant. He does not first labor six days, looking hopefully toward rest. Instead, he begins the week by rejoicing in the rest already accomplished by the cosmic event of Christ's resurrection. Then he enters joyfully into his six days of labor, confident of success through the victory which Christ has already won."*
> 
> O Palmer Robertson in *"Christ of the Covenants."*
> 
> Would anyone consider this quote an *unconfessional* statement?
Click to expand...




In the fourth chapter of Hebrews, the Apostle Paul plainly shows us that resting from our daily labors on God’s holy Sabbath pictures our glorious future as Spirit-born sons into God’s Family! He shows that Sabbath keeping actually pictures rest from our struggles against sin which God promises to give His obedient children! (Hebrews 4:1-11)

Matthew Henry's commentary on Hebrews 4:1-10 "It is evident, that there is a more spiritual and excellent sabbath remaining for the people of God, than that of the seventh day, or that into which Joshua led the Jews. This rest is, a rest of grace, and comfort, and holiness, in the gospel state. And a rest in glory, where the people of God shall enjoy the end of their faith, and the object of all their desires. The rest, or sabbatism, which is the subject of the apostle's reasoning, and as to which he concludes that it remains to be enjoyed, is undoubtedly the heavenly rest, which remains to the people of God, and is opposed to a state of labour and trouble in this world. It is the rest they shall obtain when the Lord Jesus shall appear from heaven. But those who do not believe, shall never enter into this spiritual rest, either of grace here or glory hereafter. God has always declared man's rest to be in him, and his love to be the only real happiness of the soul; and faith in his promises, through his Son, to be the only way of entering that rest."


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## Knoxienne

kvanlaan said:


> That sounds wonderful. Do the Danish like their coffee strong like the Dutch and other Europeans? Dutch folks make wonderful coffee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, we do (thank you!) I am no longer asked to make coffee at the office, the others take offense at its strength.
Click to expand...


Sort of like taking offense at strong preaching!


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## Davidius

I don't think that the disciples, when they were picking grain on the Sabbath, had been missing meals all week and were starving. Someone mentioned that for them it was a "matter of life and death" but that's just silly. 

This is something that I've waffled around quite a bit over the last year. At this point I can only with a clear conscience vote that eating out is not a sin because I am not convinced that it is, and I don't want to bind others' consciences when I'm not sure myself.


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## DonP

Davidius said:


> I don't think that the disciples, when they were picking grain on the Sabbath, had been missing meals all week and were starving. Someone mentioned that for them it was a "matter of life and death" but that's just silly.
> 
> This is something that I've waffled around quite a bit over the last year. At this point I can only with a clear conscience vote that eating out is not a sin because I am not convinced that it is, and I don't want to bind others' consciences when I'm not sure myself.



Sorry I meant David and his men may have been starving or weak. 

the disciples were hungry and maybe hadn't eaten in more than just the last meal. It was a necessity anyway. And they did not go to a store and buy, they legally gleaned for themselves. No buying, selling commerce, restaurant. They were not working and harvesting as the Pharisees tried to equate it to. 

Here is Matt Henry on David and the shewbread
Matt 12:1-13

[1.] He urges an ancient instance of David, who in a case of necessity did that which otherwise he ought not to have done (v. 3-4); "Have ye not read the story (1 Sam 21:6) of David's eating the show-bread, which by the law was appropriated to the priest?" (Lev 24:5-9). It is most holy to Aaron and his sons; and (Ex 29:33) a stranger shall not eat of it; yet the priest gave it to David and his men; for though the exception of a case of necessity was not expressed, yet it was implied in that and all other ritual institutions. That which bore out David in eating the show-bread was not his dignity (Uzziah, that invaded the priest's office in the pride of his heart, though a king, was struck with a leprosy for it, 2 Chron 26:16, etc.), but his hunger. The greatest shall not have their lusts indulged, but the meanest shall have their wants considered. Hunger is a natural desire which cannot be mortified, but must be gratified, and cannot be put off with any thing but meat; therefore we say, It will break through stone walls. Now the Lord is for the body, and allowed his own appointment to be dispensed with in a case of distress; much more might the tradition of the elders be dispensed with. Note, That may be done in a case of necessity which may not be done at another time; there are laws which necessity has not, but it is a law to itself.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)


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## bookslover

HanleyBri said:


> However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.



So, what's the difference between arranging for a private individual to feed you and going to a restaurant? Aren't you "making" the private individual spend his or her Sunday preparing food for you, just as you would allegedly be "making" a restaurant worker do the same?

As for "making" or "forcing" (in a sense) a restaurant worker to serve you - you're not. They're working there on Sunday whether you show up or not.


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## Herald

bookslover said:


> HanleyBri said:
> 
> 
> 
> However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's the difference between arranging for a private individual to feed you and going to a restaurant? Aren't you "making" the private individual spend his or her Sunday preparing food for you, just as you would allegedly be "making" a restaurant worker do the same?
> 
> As for "making" or "forcing" (in a sense) a restaurant worker to serve you - you're not. They're working there on Sunday whether you show up or not.
Click to expand...


Richard, it would seem (to me) that a brother or sister preparing a meal for another brother or sister would an act of mercy.


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## Scott1

> 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou *shalt not do any work*, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
> 
> 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



Looking at this passage, it appears the prohibition is more broad- against "work" rather than only one's employment, where one earns a living. We know from Matthew 12:1, ordinary food preparation (and I think in the context of still keeping the whole day "holy" by focusing on God) is excepted.

We are assuming that what makes "eating out" unacceptable is not the "non-worshipful" environment of the restaurant but the pay given employees, and our demanding service from them. It would seem the former plays into keeping the day "holy."


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## PresbyDane

Knoxienne said:


> Re4mdant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never thought about this
> We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds wonderful. Do the Danish like their coffee strong like the Dutch and other Europeans? Dutch folks make wonderful coffee.
Click to expand...


I do not know if the danish in general make strong coffee, but the christians in Inner Mission were I preach ae known to make the strongest coffee.
And yes danish people drink a lot of coffee, I do not know if we still are, but at one point we were the country in the world that drank the most coffee per person.


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## Knoxienne

Re4mdant said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re4mdant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never thought about this
> We even have something called church coffee were we take turns and go to each others houses and eat lunch and have coffee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds wonderful. Do the Danish like their coffee strong like the Dutch and other Europeans? Dutch folks make wonderful coffee.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not know if the danish in general make strong coffee, but the christians in Inner Mission were I preach ae known to make the strongest coffee.
> And yes danish people drink a lot of coffee, I do not know if we still are, but at one point we were the country in the world that drank the most coffee per person.
Click to expand...


Then I say, Viva la Danimarca!!!


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## PresbyDane

Thank you, that shows your very big and good judge of people


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## kvanlaan

> As for "making" or "forcing" (in a sense) a restaurant worker to serve you - you're not. They're working there on Sunday whether you show up or not.



Yes, but there is a hope that with a noticable drop in revenues, they would close on Sundays.


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## Marrow Man

kvanlaan said:


> As for "making" or "forcing" (in a sense) a restaurant worker to serve you - you're not. They're working there on Sunday whether you show up or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but there is a hope that with a noticable drop in revenues, they would close on Sundays.
Click to expand...


If 1) alcohol sales were prohibited on Sundays and 2) church folk didn't flood the restaurants after worship, it would seem hard to imagine most restaurants being open on that day.


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## DonP

If the moral law is obligatory for all people to obey, wouldn't I as a Christian want to be a good witness that we don;t want people doing the employments on that day? 

Some one said we should reprove those who take the lords name in vain, pass a law against going it, and yet they would not go reprove a person who breaks th 4th command? And we would eve ncondone what they are doing by being a partaker in other men's sin?

1 Tim 5:22 nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. NKJV

Eph 5:8-12 Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For* it is shameful even to speak of those things *which are done by them in secret.
NKJV


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## kceaster

I would just add that we all need to examine our hearts when discussing this. I am not accusing anyone of not doing that.

We each need to realize that we break the Sabbath every Lord's Day. One brother said that he keeps the Sabbath. Brother, there is no one who keeps the Sabbath but One, and we need to remember that.

Since this is a question of obedience, then it obviously falls under progressive sanctification, and therefore, there should be mercy and grace and latitude.

It is not a license to sin. May it never be so! But instead of anguish over a list of do's and don'ts regarding the Sabbath, perhaps we would grow up in the Lord by realizing that we should anguish over the other 9 commandments we break daily in thought, word, and deed. May it never be named among Christ's church that we believe we keep the Sabbath and that God finds us blameless in it. Rather, we should look unto Jesus who perfectly obeyed the Sabbath and holds out for us real and lasting rest when the fulness of the times comes.

We should behave according to our consciences and not attempt to bind anyone's conscience regarding the keeping of the law. Advise, yes. Pray with and for, yes. But look down our nose or judge someone, no. Have patience and be at peace.

In Christ,

KC


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## ww

kceaster said:


> I would just add that we all need to examine our hearts when discussing this. I am not accusing anyone of not doing that.
> 
> We each need to realize that we break the Sabbath every Lord's Day. One brother said that he keeps the Sabbath. Brother, there is no one who keeps the Sabbath but One, and we need to remember that.
> 
> Since this is a question of obedience, then it obviously falls under progressive sanctification, and therefore, there should be mercy and grace and latitude.
> 
> It is not a license to sin. May it never be so! But instead of anguish over a list of do's and don'ts regarding the Sabbath, perhaps we would grow up in the Lord by realizing that we should anguish over the other 9 commandments we break daily in thought, word, and deed. May it never be named among Christ's church that we believe we keep the Sabbath and that God finds us blameless in it. Rather, we should look unto Jesus who perfectly obeyed the Sabbath and holds out for us real and lasting rest when the fulness of the times comes.
> 
> We should behave according to our consciences and not attempt to bind anyone's conscience regarding the keeping of the law. Advise, yes. Pray with and for, yes. But look down our nose or judge someone, no. Have patience and be at peace.
> 
> In Christ,
> 
> KC


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## DonP

kceaster said:


> We each need to realize that we break the Sabbath every Lord's Day. One brother said that he keeps the Sabbath. Brother, there is no one who keeps the Sabbath but One, and we need to remember that.
> 
> KC



This is not true. The fact we do not keep the commandments perfectly does not mean we do not keep them. 

These are not idle goals to aim toward. You had better be KEEPING the commands in the sense scripture tells us. 

1 John 3:22
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, *because we keep His commandments* and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
NKJV

1 John 5:2-4
2 *By this* we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and *keep His commandments*. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the *victory *that has overcome the world — *our faith*
NKJV

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, *who keep the commandments of God* and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
NKJV

1 John 2:3-6

Now *by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.* 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 
NKJV

John 15:10
10 *If* you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. NKJV

Matt 19:17
But* if* you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 
NKJV
Was Jesus teaching Judaism or Chritianity. 

And don't anyone say this is works salvation or FV This is simply saying those who have been born again have some definitive santification and they as a *result *of being regenerated desire to do works and obey


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## Scott1

Polling is closed.

We made it through another sabbath discussion on Puritan Board!

71% of voters believe that Scripture and the Confessions ordinarily require one to refrain from eating out in restaurants on the Lord's Day while home, or do so as a matter of conviction. 26% would make exception while traveling.

Substantial discussion involved our need to invite people for meals on the Lord's Day, at church and in our homes, especially visitors and people traveling. We need to be more sensitive to this, and more hospitable people.

The Lord commands us to make the day "holy" that is, set aside from the ordinary things of the rest of the week.

May God grant us all a desire to obey Him more, for His Honor, and His Glory!


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## kceaster

*Don...*



PeaceMaker said:


> kceaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> We each need to realize that we break the Sabbath every Lord's Day. One brother said that he keeps the Sabbath. Brother, there is no one who keeps the Sabbath but One, and we need to remember that.
> 
> KC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not true. The fact we do not keep the commandments perfectly does not mean we do not keep them.
> 
> These are not idle goals to aim toward. You had better be KEEPING the commands in the sense scripture tells us.
> 
> 1 John 3:22
> 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, *because we keep His commandments* and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
> NKJV
> 
> 1 John 5:2-4
> 2 *By this* we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and *keep His commandments*. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the *victory *that has overcome the world — *our faith*
> NKJV
> 
> Rev 12:17
> 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, *who keep the commandments of God* and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
> NKJV
> 
> 1 John 2:3-6
> 
> Now *by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.* 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
> NKJV
> 
> John 15:10
> 10 *If* you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. NKJV
> 
> Matt 19:17
> But* if* you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
> NKJV
> Was Jesus teaching Judaism or Chritianity.
> 
> And don't anyone say this is works salvation or FV This is simply saying those who have been born again have some definitive santification and they as a *result *of being regenerated desire to do works and obey
Click to expand...


In a sense, this is true, we are to keep the commandments. Yet the law and the keeping of it, always points us to Christ. The law will always thunder, but we can never answer that we have done it. We have to rest in the belief that Christ is the One to answer for us.

So, where we are told to keep the commandments, we ought to say that we do as unprofitable servants do. But in the end, only Christ can truly keep the law.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## DonP

kceaster said:


> So, where we are told to keep the commandments, we ought to say that we do as unprofitable servants do. But in the end, only Christ can truly keep the law.
> In Christ,
> KC



Well you can say whatever you want. 

I would rather say 
1 John 2:3 *Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments*. 

4 *He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.* 

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk *just as He walked.* NKJV


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## Claudiu

What I do see odd in some of the questions that come to the law and actions is that there is imbalance. There was a thread about smoking weed, and many people thought it was ok. But now when it comes to eating out on the Lord's Day, they follow that really strictly. It would be nice if one follows the law, to follow all of it, all the way. The issue comes to worshipping God with all your heart, soul, and mind. The body is also to be presented as a holy sacrifice to God. I just wanted to through this in here because I see there are people who are ok with some other things (like smoking weed), but when it comes to another part of the, like the Lord's day they follow it with extreme precision...while following one part of the law, another is left out (or not stressed upon as much as it should)


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## DonP

Though the one would not invalidate the other, I agree there should be consistency in our judgment

Matt 7:2-5
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 
NKJV


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## DonP

Also it depends what they though of the smoking weed. Some smoke cigarettes now and they may be banned by our govt one day. 
And science has shown them bad for health. So how does this affect their conscience in how they keep the Lord's day or using restaurants


----------

