# Does this PCUSA church look fine to you guys?



## Confessor (Jul 7, 2008)

This First Presbyterian is immediately adjacent to my campus at Ohio Northern University, where I am going to be for the next six years. Seeing the long time I'm going to be there, I want to make sure that this church is solid.

I saw on the title page that "as Presbyterians, we are Reformed and Confessional." I just want to know if there are any churches that claim this that are actually much more liberal than it appears. I know of a PCUSA church near to my current residence that is fairly conservative, so I know it's possible. Of course, I am going to visit the church and see for myself if it's good, but any additional advice helps. Thank you.


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## danmpem (Jul 7, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/gay-marriage-celebrated-pc-usa-general-assembly-event-34460/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/here-telling-overture-pcusa-ga-34548/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/pca-vs-pcusa-11323/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/pcusa-may-change-heidelberg-catechism-34491/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/one-may-cause-me-leave-pcusa-gay-clergy-34764/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/pcusa-inventing-different-phrases-trinity-14563/

I wish I had some PCA or OPC around me. I don't have anything but PCUSA for 20 miles in every direction, hence why I'm scoping out the few particular Baptist churches and Lutheran bodies right now.


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## Reformed Christian (Jul 7, 2008)

packabacka said:


> This First Presbyterian is immediately adjacent to my campus at Ohio Northern University, where I am going to be for the next six years. Seeing the long time I'm going to be there, I want to make sure that this church is solid.
> 
> I saw on the title page that "as Presbyterians, we are Reformed and Confessional." I just want to know if there are any churches that claim this that are actually much more liberal than it appears. I know of a PCUSA church near to my current residence that is fairly conservative, so I know it's possible. Of course, I am going to visit the church and see for myself if it's good, but any additional advice helps. Thank you.



This church is affiliated with the Confessing Church Movement within the PCUSA. Here's the FAQ page from their website - a loose knit group of about 1,000 churches that seem to be "hold outs" seeking to reform the PCUSA to her previous orthodoxy. Here's an interesting statement from the Confessing Church website:

Q: What caused the Confessing Church Movement to happen?

A: The leadership of the PCUSA seems to be in sympathy with this drift away from Biblical standards and also seems to be encouraging it. There have been a complex of events within the Presbyterian Church (USA) that are exactly opposite to Scripture and the PCUSA's Book of Confessions. This includes the PCUSA's unstinting support by money and personnel, including staff, for the Re-imagining Conference in which the autonomous self was exalted, the transcendence of God was denied, and the atoning work of Jesus Christ was rejected; the refusal of leadership to deal with the heresy [embraced] last year at a denominational Peace Conference; and the most recent General Assembly's (213th) failure to clearly acknowledge Jesus Christ as universal Lord and Savior for all humankind; affirmation of homosexuality as a gift of God and homosexual behavior as a legitimate expression of human love; and, singularly, not adhering to the Bible which has been considered irrelevant in the context of modern culture and nature.​
Sounds like it might be worth looking in to, but very carefully with "USA" on the door.


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## Confessor (Jul 7, 2008)

danmpem said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/gay-marriage-celebrated-pc-usa-general-assembly-event-34460/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/here-telling-overture-pcusa-ga-34548/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/pca-vs-pcusa-11323/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/pcusa-may-change-heidelberg-catechism-34491/
> ...



Thanks for the links.

I realize that the PCUSA as a denomination is undergoing some problems (a severe understatement), but I also know that there are some more conservative ones, and I wanted to know if this could be one.


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## Confessor (Jul 7, 2008)

Reformed Christian said:


> packabacka said:
> 
> 
> > This First Presbyterian is immediately adjacent to my campus at Ohio Northern University, where I am going to be for the next six years. Seeing the long time I'm going to be there, I want to make sure that this church is solid.
> ...



Sorry that I never found that myself. I guess I should just improve on my research skills. Thank you though! This is very encouraging. I'll definitely talk to the pastor or elders about this when I attend there.


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## Reformed Christian (Jul 7, 2008)

packabacka said:


> Sorry that I never found that myself. I guess I should just improve on my research skills. Thank you though! This is very encouraging. I'll definitely talk to the pastor or elders about this when I attend there.



No worries! I was not even aware of the Confessing Church Movement. Too often we hear only of the apostasy and liberalism of the PCUSA. And I have been shocked when I meet solidly Reformed guys who attend a PCUSA church. I can only assume their churches are affiliated with this group as well.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 7, 2008)

danmpem said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/gay-marriage-celebrated-pc-usa-general-assembly-event-34460/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/here-telling-overture-pcusa-ga-34548/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/pca-vs-pcusa-11323/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/pcusa-may-change-heidelberg-catechism-34491/
> ...



You have got an OPC, PCA, RCUS and URC within an hour of you, though...


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## Casey (Jul 7, 2008)

Here are a couple of sermons online you could listen to, see what's being preached from the pulpit: Patrick


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## A5pointer (Jul 7, 2008)

My church is part of the confessing movement as well. I am comfortable there but it can embarrassing to be affiliated with the denomination as it tumbles farther and farther into the secular sewer.


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## Grace Alone (Jul 9, 2008)

I would caution you to seek out all possible alternatives before considering a PCUSA church. I could not in good conscience put myself under the authority of that denomination.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 9, 2008)

There is an EPC church in Findlay (about 23 miles away) that might be a better option. Certainly it is a sounder denomination.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 9, 2008)

CaseyBessette said:


> Here are a couple of sermons online you could listen to, see what's being preached from the pulpit: Patrick



Says here he earned his M.Div. from Gordon-Conwell, an evangelical seminary.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 9, 2008)

They celebrate Lent so how "confessional" can they be? Seriously, any truly conservative left eons ago from the PCUSA. See if they have women elders. If not, then they may be as good as some [broadly] evangelical PCA churches; but confessional? I think not.


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## Stephen (Jul 10, 2008)

packabacka said:


> This First Presbyterian is immediately adjacent to my campus at Ohio Northern University, where I am going to be for the next six years. Seeing the long time I'm going to be there, I want to make sure that this church is solid.
> 
> I saw on the title page that "as Presbyterians, we are Reformed and Confessional." I just want to know if there are any churches that claim this that are actually much more liberal than it appears. I know of a PCUSA church near to my current residence that is fairly conservative, so I know it's possible. Of course, I am going to visit the church and see for myself if it's good, but any additional advice helps. Thank you.



I would recommend any PCUSA congregation that is a member of the Confessing Church Movement (CCM). The CCM is an organization of orthodox congregations that deny the heresies of the General Assembly. Many of the CCM congregations that I know have stopped supporting the denomination at the GA level. This congregation looks fine and I do not think you will have to worry about anything. You could certainly check out CCM's website to read about their vision and beliefs. I do not know the website address.


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## Stephen (Jul 10, 2008)

NaphtaliPress said:


> They celebrate Lent so how "confessional" can they be? Seriously, any truly conservative left eons ago from the PCUSA. See if they have women elders. If not, then they may be as good as some [broadly] evangelical PCA churches; but confessional? I think not.





I understand your point about Lent and would completely agree with you, but there are some PCA congregations that I would certainly question if they were confessional.


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## Stephen (Jul 10, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> danmpem said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/gay-marriage-celebrated-pc-usa-general-assembly-event-34460/
> ...



I think he was interested in this PCUSA congregation because it is so close to the campus, but I would agree that if you have an OPC, PCA, RCUS, & URC in the area I would first check them out. These may be too far from where he is.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 10, 2008)

Stephen said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > They celebrate Lent so how "confessional" can they be? Seriously, any truly conservative left eons ago from the PCUSA. See if they have women elders. If not, then they may be as good as some [broadly] evangelical PCA churches; but confessional? I think not.
> ...


Truly; hence my reference to "broadly evangelical" PCA churches.


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## jaybird0827 (Jul 10, 2008)

joshua said:


> Personally, I'd find elsewhere to go. See this post from a Reformed Presbyterian Pastor, Bruce Buchanan, some time back: http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/confessing-church-movement-pcusa-15635/#post200909


 


Rev. Buchanan's words are my sentiments exactly. I once was a member of a congregation that is now one of these Confessing Churches. The last I knew the women were basically running the show.

I was getting the Presbyterian Layman for years. These people are willing to go but so far, no farther. In my humble opinion it is too little too late.


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## Stephen (Jul 10, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'd find elsewhere to go. See this post from a Reformed Presbyterian Pastor, Bruce Buchanan, some time back: http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/confessing-church-movement-pcusa-15635/#post200909
> ...




The same could be said of the EPC, which was recommended on this thread.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 10, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'd find elsewhere to go. See this post from a Reformed Presbyterian Pastor, Bruce Buchanan, some time back: http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/confessing-church-movement-pcusa-15635/#post200909
> ...



and with the influx of PCUSA churches that will eventually head into the EPC, you'll see how conservative the PCUSA conservatives aren't.


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## Christusregnat (Jul 10, 2008)

Dan, 

you should come down to visit us in Pleasanton some time:'

Google Maps

60 miles brother, that's all we ask 

Adam





danmpem said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/gay-marriage-celebrated-pc-usa-general-assembly-event-34460/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/here-telling-overture-pcusa-ga-34548/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/pca-vs-pcusa-11323/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/pcusa-may-change-heidelberg-catechism-34491/
> ...


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## Bygracealone (Jul 10, 2008)

Our denomination has a small Church out there in Belle Center; it's only 22 miles from the university and I'm sure transportation could be arranged for you if you were interested. Here's a link to the Church:

Belle Center, Ohio, Reformed Presbyterian Church


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## toddpedlar (Jul 10, 2008)

joshua said:


> Pastor Bradley, any that close to me?



Hey, there's a CREC church in Texarkana. You could go there.


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## Bygracealone (Jul 10, 2008)

joshua said:


> Pastor Bradley, any that close to me?



Josh, it would be an answer to prayer to have an RP Church near you; would love to have you with us brother!


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## DMcFadden (Jul 10, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Pastor Bradley, any that close to me?
> ...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 10, 2008)

Bygracealone said:


> Our denomination has a small Church out there in Belle Center; it's only 22 miles from the university and I'm sure transportation could be arranged for you if you were interested. Here's a link to the Church:
> 
> Belle Center, Ohio, Reformed Presbyterian Church



I know the Pastor there, he is an awesome guy and heckuva lot of fun to talk to about Presbyterian history. Could not recommend it highly enough. 

I did not realize it was that close to ONU.


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## Confessor (Jul 10, 2008)

Bygracealone said:


> Our denomination has a small Church out there in Belle Center; it's only 22 miles from the university and I'm sure transportation could be arranged for you if you were interested. Here's a link to the Church:
> 
> Belle Center, Ohio, Reformed Presbyterian Church



 Thank you! Transportation is the _only_ thing I was worried about! If I could receive help in this regard, I would love to attend that church.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 10, 2008)

Don't be fooled by the idea that simply because a Church in the PCUSA calls itself part of the Confessing Church movement that it is remotely Reformed. There is a large Presbyterian Church in Salinas that I've visited:

fpc

Check this out: WhoWeAre



> We are striving to become the kind of church described in the Bible -- a place where the focus is a growing personal relationship with Jesus; where there is practical Biblical teaching that applies to life; where there is dynamic and uplifting worship; and where there are practical programs for the needs of every age, for both singles and married. We are a large, growing church, and the benefit of that to you is that we are big enough for seekers to be inconspicuous among us and big enough to provide a vast array of specialized ministries for people, from children and youth to young marrieds and singles, empty nesters and the retired. Look inside this web site and I think you will find lots of programs that will help you grow spiritually and live more triumphantly! And despite being a large church, I think you will find such a friendly, united people, with so many different ministries and groups, that you will quickly make friends and feel part of the ''family". I hope so!



My niece was baptized in this Church and it has anything but a Presbyterian view of the Sacrament. At her baptism, the Pastor described the event as a promise to raise G-rated kids in an X-rated world. Later in the sermon, the Pastor described sin simply as a destructive influence in our life that God wants to repair.

Lights! Music! Action! That's how I would describe this Church's "Confessing Church". They're "excited" about Jesus the same way every seeker-sensitive Church is. 

A view of the Gospels that reflects the depth of God's grace outlined in the Westminster Confession? Hardly.

For many of these Churches, being "Confessional" is not being liberal and still believing that Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 10, 2008)

I had a little more time so I looked that the Beliefs of the Church on the website link you provided. In the small space they use to "boil down" what they think is most important they enumerate this about the Reformed tradition:


> Related to this central affirmation of God’s sovereignty are other great themes of the Reformed tradition:
> 
> (1) The election of the people of God for service as well as for salvation;
> (2) Covenant life marked by a disciplined concern for order in the church according to the Word of God;
> ...



Important? Yes. Of primary importance? I worry that a Church that is of the Reformed tradition isn't really talking about the nature of the Gospel itself. they even put election unto service prior to salvation. Those four points would have me concerned that the imperative of the Christian life is emphasized to the point that the real nature of the Gospel is obscured. I don't want to immediately dismiss something on the basis that it mentions service but, especially in a world where you can't hear the News about what Christ has done much, to leave the true nature of the Gospel absent from a belief statement is really troubling to me.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 10, 2008)

Semper hit the nail on the head. One of the primary poblems with 90% of the churches in the PC(USA) is they have a very underdeveloped idea of sin, salvation, the cross, and the holiness and glory of God. They see the earth as the primary location of the Christian instead of the heavenly realm.


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## Bygracealone (Jul 10, 2008)

packabacka said:


> Bygracealone said:
> 
> 
> > Our denomination has a small Church out there in Belle Center; it's only 22 miles from the university and I'm sure transportation could be arranged for you if you were interested. Here's a link to the Church:
> ...



Sounds good brother; I'm working out the transportation part and if all goes well, you should be set. I'll provide more info in the next couple of days or so.


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## Bygracealone (Jul 19, 2008)

Hi Ben,

Its been more than a couple of days hasn't it?  Sorry about that. 

I had emailed the pastor and he was away for the week on a Boy Scout trip with one of his sons... Anyway, has he contacted you at all? His wife wrote me and said they have somebody in the congregation who drives right past the university to get to worship each Lord's Day. She didn't want to commit them to anything until they had an opportunity to talk it over with them, but it looks really good. 

Just wanted to let you know that I hadn't forgotten about you...


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## skellam (Jul 19, 2008)

Semper Fidelis said:


> > Related to this central affirmation of God’s sovereignty are other great themes of the Reformed tradition:
> >
> > (1) The election of the people of God for service as well as for salvation;
> > (2) Covenant life marked by a disciplined concern for order in the church according to the Word of God;
> ...



These statements would concern me as well. The most central affirmations they can make about the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace as reflected in the confessions of the church are that it calls us to "proper use of God's creation" (environmentalism) and "transformation of society by seeking justice and living in obedience to the Word of God" (social justice)? The centrality of the gospel and the covenant of grace is not even mentioned; that is dangerous.

For a 'confessing' church, they don't seem very confessional.


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## mvdm (Jul 19, 2008)

This reminds me of the "Returning Church" group in the CRC. They claim to be confessional, yet sit as emasculated men at Synod alongside women pastors, all in the name of "unity".

THE RETURNING CHURCH

Such churches would be served to heed the words of Charles Spurgeon:

_"To remain divided is sinful! Did not our Lord pray, that they maybe one, even as we are one”? (John 17:22). A chorus of ecumenical voices keep harping the unity tune. What they are saying is, “Christians of all doctrinal shades and beliefs must come together in one visible organization, regardless… Unite, unite!” Such teaching is false, reckless and dangerous. Truth alone must determine our alignments. Truth comes before unity. Unity without truth is hazardous. Our Lord’s prayer in John 17 must be read in its full context. Look at verse 17: “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.” Only those sanctified through the Word can be one in Christ. To teach otherwise is to betray the Gospel.”_ 
=======================================================


“_It is our solemn conviction that where there can be no real spiritual communion there should be no pretence of fellowship. Fellowship with known and vital error is participation in sin.”_


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