# Ed.D. -- pastoral value?



## reaganmarsh (Aug 14, 2013)

Greetings brethren, 

My alma mater recently contacted me to ask if I'd be interested in pursuing doctoral study. They recommended that I consider an Ed.D. Officially the program would be in leadership, but the recruiter said I could write my thesis from any angle I wanted, i.e., I could research Puritan perspectives on pastoral leadership (subject to professorial approval). 

While the program is interesting, we don't have the money, so it's irrelevant at present. It did get me thinking, though -- what value would such a degree have in reformed pastoral ministry (if any)? I confess that most leadership books I've read were nearly useless in terms of pastoral ministry. Certainly there are principles that carry over, but...

I'm just curious as to your thoughts.


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## CharlieJ (Aug 14, 2013)

"Professional" doctorates are cash cows for schools. The school puts forth very little effort and gets a decent financial return. I know some people who got that degree because they were starting or administrating a Christian school. Otherwise I don't see the point for a pastor.


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## Jack K (Aug 14, 2013)

The leadership coursework I did in MBA school was interesting, but mostly just common sense. I can't say I've ever used it much. The degree itself has opened a few doors, but unless you have a career track in mind in which a doctorate would be seen as an advantage, getting the degree for its own sake doesn't sound worth it.

I don't want to be too cynical, but it sounds like the value would mostly be for the school, which would get tuition money. Did the recruiter say why this degree would be particularly valuable to you, given your situation?


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## Edward (Aug 14, 2013)

It might prove useful if you are ever called to be pastor of a 20,000 member megachurch.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 14, 2013)

Jack K said:


> Did the recruiter say why this degree would be particularly valuable to you, given your situation?



He talked a lot about training in administration and educational theory. I was a sales manager for nearly 7 years and did well there (most of my ministry has been bi-vocational until recent years) so I don't think I'm particularly incompetent administratively. And I was a schoolteacher for a while with good results (as was my wife, and we now homeschool, and that's going well). 

I don't mean to sound like I wouldn't have anything to learn. I grilled him for a good 20 minutes. But when I hung up, I was more confused than before as to why a TE would pursue this degree. Outside of writing on puritan pastoral leadership concepts, I'm struggling to see its value in the pastorate. Hence, my question. 



Charlie, is the Ed.D. commonly considered a professional doctorate? SBTS distinguishes it from the D.Min. by including it with their Th.M. and Ph.D. research doctorates. 

Thanks for the info, y'all. I appreciate your time!


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 14, 2013)

Edward said:


> It might prove useful if you are ever called to be pastor of a 20,000 member megachurch.



Hmmm...our present congregation runs 45 most Sunday mornings in worship attendance. Not very many megachurches knocking on my door lately...


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## Edward (Aug 14, 2013)

On a more serious note, unless you are planning on writing books or getting into the academic industry, it's probably of no practical use. We have a couple of preachers on staff (but not the senior pastor or the seminary folks) who have earned doctorates. Looks good in the church bulletin, but not much different than the assistant with the honorary.


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## CharlieJ (Aug 15, 2013)

If it is a research doctorate, the average program requires nothing close to the disciplinary mastery that a PhD in the humanities does.


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## Jake (Aug 15, 2013)

Obviously, as a pastor, you need your doctorate so you can participate in revivals like this one:







from: Doctors Redux (Stuff Fundies Like)


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## Andres (Aug 15, 2013)

Jake said:


> Obviously, as a pastor, you need your doctorate so you can participate in revivals like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 15, 2013)

Jake -- well, obviously! Ha ha! 

Seriously though, I'm not intending to throw the program under the bus or sound haughty in my posts. I must say I was pleasantly surprised that they'd contacted me (I figured since I only have an M.A., with M.Div. "equivalency," that I'd not be qualifed for doctoral work) and even more surprised at the suggested degree program. 

I'm genuinely puzzled as to how 60 hours of educational leadership and administrative theory would profit the average pastor. It would make much more sense to me, if I had the money, to pursue further study in theology, biblical studies, or church history (ie, Th.M. or Ph.D.). Maybe the Ed.D. would be more valuable to a minister of education (likely at a larger church)?


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 15, 2013)

I would be hesitant to say that any degree has no value, I'm sure you would learn at least a few new and potentially valuable things, but in truth we all know that the only real value that such degrees have is in advancing your career. It seems that nowadays a Doctorate of some sort is a prerequisite to pastoring any church with more than 100 members.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 15, 2013)

Bill, I agree fully with you that there would likely be *some* value in it and apologize if I've communicated otherwise; in all learning there is profit, as Scripture says. I further agree that most "bigger" churches require doctoral degrees of their senior pastors.

I am just confused as to why a solid school like SBTS would be encouraging preaching pastors to pursue this particular course of study. I don't mean to be critical. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. For the usual kind of student who enrolls in their School of Theology -- who is generally training for ministry as a TE/senior pastor -- this particular degree seems to be a poor choice. I would think that he'd be better served in a D.Min. or Th.M./Ph.D., for normal pastoral ministry.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 15, 2013)

reaganmarsh said:


> I am just confused as to why a solid school like SBTS would be encouraging preaching pastors to pursue this particular course of study.



Because in the eyes of many, the senior pastor's job is to be the visionary leader of the church. Leading staff, congregants, teams, etc., requires that you know how to lead. 

I know 2 pastors who decided to leave their church because as the church grew it was obvious to them that they didn't have the technical skill to lead a large organization. Additionally, if you read the reasons for Piper's retirement, one of them is that he simply didn't have the skill to properly lead and manage the church any longer.


(This is not to say that I think an Ed.D is the best option for a senior pastor. I'm simply articulating some of the reasons why others might think it is the degree to have.)


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 15, 2013)

reaganmarsh said:


> I am just confused as to why a solid school like SBTS would be encouraging preaching pastors to pursue this particular course of study. I don't mean to be critical. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. For the usual kind of student who enrolls in their School of Theology -- who is generally training for ministry as a TE/senior pastor -- this particular degree seems to be a poor choice. I would think that he'd be better served in a D.Min. or Th.M./Ph.D., for normal pastoral ministry.



If you understand the politics of the SBC and how the cooperative money is distributed, you will quickly understand why they would do this. The SBC divvies out funds to the six SBC seminaries based on what's called FTE's, or full time enrollments. The more a school has, the larger percentage of the pie they get. Since most of the SBC schools are barely surviving, they are desperate to get more FTE's anyway they can. Since most pastors probably don't have time to pursue a Ph.D, and perhaps have questioned the value of a D.Min, offering an Ed.D. just might entice some pastors to enroll, thus creating more of the all important FTE's.


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## jwithnell (Aug 15, 2013)

I would also question the value of educational theory. Much is based on an evolutionary perspective and reflects little of the understanding of man as an image-bearer of God.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 16, 2013)

Ben, I take your point as to needing to know how to lead, though I share your reservation that the Ed.D. is likely not the best degree for a TE. 

Bill, that makes sense - I'd frankly not considered the FTE/CP/political aspects of such recruitment. That was a helpful perspective.

Ms. Withnell, I know that the educational theory books I read in my undergrad studies were steeped in evolutionary theory. Perhaps it's a dumb (or naive) question, but do you think a conservative SBC seminary would permit such an approach, particularly one which has undergone such a thorough housecleaning as SBTS? If anything I would think they'd be working toward a biblical theology of leadership/educational philosophy. 

I appreciate all of you responding to my question!


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## jwithnell (Aug 16, 2013)

I hope I have spoken too fast


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## DMcFadden (Aug 17, 2013)

First, many pastors are bivocational. A good number of secular colleges will permit an EdD to teach and have faculty rank, not so true of the D.Min. If you wanted to teach on the side, an EdD could be helpful.

Second, while some schools treat the Ed.D as a purely professional degree (e.g., the degree of choice for a school principal or superintendent), the Ed.D seems to occupy a place somewhere between the "professional" and the "research" doctorates. More than a D.Min, less than a Ph.D but often "good enough" to get your foot in the door. Some schools offer the Ed.D as a "professional" doctorate and the Ph.D for those wanting to pursue teaching in a higher ed context, but not all. Check out the credentials of professors in colleges and you will find a goodly number of Ed.Ds. I'm reminded of the partial analogy to the standard MBA vs. the Executive MBA.

Third, I sat under the ministry of a man with this degree from SBTS. He is a rather "low key" speaker, but the most amazing equipper and developer of leaders I have ever met. He used his degree to focus his mid-career energies and to help him have the most effective ministry of his long ministry career (now 68-69 years old). By his testimony and my own observations, I would say that the program served him exceedingly well.

Fourth, in our credential-conscious culture, a pastor with an Ed.D is more likely to have entre into significant places of influence in the town or city where he lives. The pastor described in the aforementioned bullet point has leveraged his Ed.D for kingdom impact in a number of community leadership roles that may not have been available to him otherwise. Unless you want your ministry to remain within the four walls of your church structure, then the Ed.D can be a door opener.

As for the D.Min, no argument here. Absolutely a cash cow for the school and often not respected by the people who award it. I have a friend who was with relatives prior to going to the graduation ceremony to receive a D.Min and was in the house of Ph.D relatives. Without catching a hint of the irony or insensitivity, one of the Ph.Ds was lamenting the sad state of seminary education wherein pastors "eager for the ego trip of being called 'doctor'" paid money to seminaries eager for every extra buck and willing to lower themselves to the level of calling a D.Min degree a "doctorate."

Another friend did quite a fine job on a dissertation for the D.Min from a famous seminary. The school was interested in establishing a satellite campus in his geographically distant desert community. When he inquired about being an adjunct for a first year MINISTRY class, he was informed that he did not "qualify" because he only held a D.Min. (from that VERY school!!!). They told him that he would need to have a Ed.D or Ph.D in order to be an adjunct. He now serves as a denominational executive (equivalent to bishop in some bodies) and still does not have the academic creds to be an adjunct, at least at his alma mater.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 20, 2013)

Dennis -- thank you, sir, for your thoughtful post. As I stated before, I was a teacher for a while, and have had a number of folks who know me well encourage me toward pursuing an adjunct teaching role. What exactly would an Ed.D. qualify me to teach? Leadership & educational theory, I assume? Would I be able to teach "ministry" classes if my thesis focused on pastoral ministry, or would that be operating "out of bounds"? Perhaps even more to the point -- would a secular university give credence to a "seminary doctorate"? 

Again, I appreciate each one who has taken the time to reply.


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## Brother John (Aug 21, 2013)

reaganmarsh said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > It might prove useful if you are ever called to be pastor of a 20,000 member megachurch.
> ...



Not knocking now... But wait until you add your Ed.D. To your LinkedIn profile. You will be batting offers away like Mosquitos on a summer afternoon...


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 21, 2013)

Brother John said:


> reaganmarsh said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...



You may be running 45 now, but if you only had 35 when you came, that is growth rate of 30%. What megachurch would not want a pastor who was able to achieve 30% growth!


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 21, 2013)

Bill and John -- ha ha! It's kind of funny, actually, because the churches I grew up in (my dad is a children's pastor) were all megachurches. I think the smallest church he served was over 1000 in weekly attendance. But the churches I've served have almost all been small. I served as interim pastor for a church during seminary where we averaged 13 in Sunday AM worship and had 31 on their annual "high attendance Sunday." 

Okay, what that has to do with an Ed.D., I'm not sure...forgive my rabbit trail! 

Here is the website if you'd like to take a more detailed look at the program: SBTS Ed.D.

The Ed.D office sent me a PDF outlining the program (attached below). 

I really appreciate everyone taking time to interact with me on this. At first I thought it wouldn't be helpful at all, or only nominally so. After what Dennis wrote about the pastor who was good at equipping others, and the possibility of teaching with such a degree, I'm getting curious...though I still think a degree in theology or biblical studies or church history would be more befitting a normal pastor. 

I'll ask my previous questions once more: What exactly would an Ed.D. qualify one to teach? Leadership & educational theory, I assume? Would one be able to teach "ministry" classes if the thesis focused on pastoral ministry, or would that be operating "out of bounds"? Perhaps even more to the point -- would a secular university give credence to a "seminary doctorate"?

Thanks, y'all.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 24, 2013)

Bumping this thread -- can anyone give me an answer to the questions posted above? 

Thanks in advance for your time.


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 25, 2013)

Reagan,

I looked over the program and actually it looks really good. It is more academic than a D.Min, yet more flexible and practical than a Ph.D. The problem that a lot of people have with the D.Min is that it is just not very well respected, and most professors will secretly snicker at people who pursue such degrees and accuse them of wanting the glory of the title without wanting to do any real work. On the other hand, most working pastors simply don't have the time to complete a Ph.D, and so this seems like a good compromise. As far as whether the degree will be applicable, the reading list had some interesting selections and certainly part of your job as a pastor is to educate people, and so surely there will be some valuable things learned in such a program.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 27, 2013)

Bill, 

I appreciate your response. When I began this thread, it didn't seem like the Ed.D would be a very useful program to me as a pastor. But hearing the feedback from others, it might prove be a more helpful course of study than I'd first considered it to be. 

I do not want a junk degree, nor am I interested in climbing ladders. I'm bored stiff at the thought of doing higher ed administration... I do want the option of teaching; I do believe that is something God has called me to do in some capacity at some point. 

However, far outstripping any "potentials" like those, I want to study something which will help me to be the best pastor I can be. The story of Dennis's friend has really piqued my interest, as leadership development is a significant need in our congregation. 

I will value any other/further feedback anyone provides.


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