# What do outsiders think of the Puritans and PB



## Henry from Canada (Oct 25, 2005)

I want to learn more about the Puritans, Calvinism and the Reformed Church.

I have great respect for some of the contributors on this board. There is real wisdom here. (I need all the wisdom I can get because I spent over 1 hour last night debating Romans 3 with an Arminian.)

This board is not private. Your conduct can be viewed by many people surfing the net - especially if they are considering Reformed Christianity.

How you conduct yourselves determines how many people view the Puritans, Calvinists and Reformed Christians. This isn't all about your needs.

I have seen people banned from this site because of polite, reasoned disagreements over baptism. This is your right.

I have seen people banned and rejected from this site because they don't belong to a church. This also is your right.

Question 1:
Do you realize that some people may want to spend a lot of time reading the Bible and getting questions answered before joining a church? There are many false prophets out there. Many people have had horrible experiences with churches! Others with disabilities, like me, have difficulty getting to a mailbox, let alone a proper church. 

Your board draws a very hard line over doctrinal issues like baptism, church attendance, etc. At the same time, I've seen posts freely discussing FAVORITE Beatles songs.

The Beatles promoted long hair for men, drugs, rebellion, Aleister Crowley, and other anti-Christian stuff. They said they were bigger than Jesus, and John Lennon trashed Christianity in his song Imagine.

Yes, I have listened to the Beatles. I also thrown out many a anti- Christian record in my day even though I enjoyed the music.

Question 3
How can you freely praise and glorify Beatles music and at the same time ban someone for sincere and thoughtful disagreements over the WCF policy on baptism?

Question 4:
Does this behavior encourage people considering the Reformed faith to reach out for answers?

Question 5:
Does this behavior cause other people to think more highly of the Puritans, Calvinists and Reformed Christians?

When I look back, I sometimes feel deep shame because I'm sure I have often been a lousy ambassador for Christ. 

Hundreds of people have passed through this board as rejected members, banned members, members that don't participate, or just random surfers.

Question 6:
Do you ever wonder how your actions/posts affected their view of Christianity?


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 25, 2005)

Good post!


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## BrianBowman (Oct 25, 2005)

Henry,

Thank you for your gracious post. It reflects a lot of humility and consideration. There is a lot that could be said for and against some of the polemics that occur here on PB. Please know that many of who so debate, came from non-Reformed backgrounds and the Holy Spirit sovereignly led us into a Reformed/Calvinistic understanding. The PB is place where we are "sharpened", yet also have an opportunity to explore Theological issues at a level of depth that formerly we may have not even known existed.

Kind Regards in Christ,


Brian


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## Puritan Sailor (Oct 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> I want to learn more about the Puritans, Calvinism and the Reformed Church.
> 
> I have great respect for some of the contributors on this board. There is real wisdom here. (I need all the wisdom I can get because I spent over 1 hour last night debating Romans 3 with an Arminian.)
> ...


Thank yo for your input and call to reflection. Our conduct is public and it's unfortunate that many forget that in the heat of debate. We make impressions upon those whom we don't realize. 



> I have seen people banned from this site because of polite, reasoned disagreements over baptism. This is your right.


No one has ever been banned for a polite disagreement over baptism. We have 2 Confessions, the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession. A member must adhere to one of these. We are not a church but a private discussion board. The only reason someone would be banned over the baptism issue is if they are advocating heresy (i.e. can't be saved unless your baptized) or if they are refusing to discuss issues according to the guidleines clearly laid out for all members upon their joining, and linked in every Mod's signature. 



> I have seen people banned and rejected from this site because they don't belong to a church. This also is your right.



True, but only after these folks have made it clear they are not looking for a church. Usually they get plenty of time to demonstrate this. Church membership is required here because we are not a church and are not intended to replace a church. But special cases have been made at the discretion of the owners of the Board. 



> Question 1:
> Do you realize that some people may want to spend a lot of time reading the Bible and getting questions answered before joining a church? There are many false prophets out there. Many people have had horrible experiences with churches! Others with disabilities, like me, have difficulty getting to a mailbox, let alone a proper church.
> 
> Your board draws a very hard line over doctrinal issues like baptism, church attendance, etc. At the same time, I've seen posts freely discussing FAVORITE Beatles songs.



Yes we draw a fine line, we are a Reformed discussion Board. But within those boundaries are large amounts of liberty regarding some issues (i.e. music). I personally agree with your assessment that the Beattles are anti-christian. But we all have different convictions regarding these areas and must tolerate _some_ freedom of conscience as we grow in grace at our own rates. If there is an issue you don't like, then either don't participate, or feel free to question them how they can justify listening to it but in a courteous manner. They will respond with equal courtesy (or else...). 



> Question 3
> How can you freely praise and glorify Beatles music and at the same time ban someone for sincere and thoughtful disagreements over the WCF policy on baptism?


Again, no one is banned for sincere and thoughtful disagreements over the Confession. They are banned for either conduct in violation of our posted rules, or they are banned for militantly advocating doctrines contrary to our Confessions. 



> Question 4:
> Does this behavior encourage people considering the Reformed faith to reach out for answers?


Again, we are a Reformed Discussion Board. Those who join should already have a good idea what the Reformed faith is and submit to it, and are seeking to understand it better. The boundaries are set so that we may explore our common faith in more depth without having to rehash basics. 



> Question 5:
> Does this behavior cause other people to think more highly of the Puritans, Calvinists and Reformed Christians?


Hopefully, as people read and observe our arguments and behavior, they will be persuaded by the arguments and the spirit in which we conduct them. This is the ideal for this medium of communication. As you have noted, often this is forgotten. 



> When I look back, I sometimes feel deep shame because I'm sure I have often been a lousy ambassador for Christ.
> 
> Hundreds of people have passed through this board as rejected members, banned members, members that don't participate, or just random surfers.


There have not been hundreds of rejected or banned members. And again, the reasons people are banned are clearly spelled out in the Board rules. If you don't abide by the rules, then you will be banned (and it's usually a long process). It's very simple and straight forward. 



> Question 6:
> Do you ever wonder how your actions/posts affected their view of Christianity?



This is a good question and one which our Board rules emphasize all our members to think about before they post _anything._ Thank you for the reminder.


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 25, 2005)

Henry,
Welcome. Thanks for being a part of our board.

I am being careful not to mistake our board for the church, or a church, yet I would point out that many of the same issues you raise in your questions can be postulated of the church. Like a church, membership comes with strings attached. We could, if we wanted, have virtually no rules or regs restricting behavior here. It could be a free for all. But we set up controls so that we can help facilitate communications within a particular framework.

In some ways like a church, we have both a teaching goal and a fellowship goal. And it is just on the points of doctrine that we cannot afford to have the broadest latitude. Sometimes there is a fine line between asking questions on a certain topic, and actually advocating something that is alien to our ethos. There have been several persons who clearly did not want to absorb reformed doctrine on, say, baptism or papal authority but wanted a forum to air their opposite views and gain their own disciples. The internet's a big place. I'm sure they will find other spots to pontificate.

But where the Bible, and the various confessions maintain a silence, so too we allow a wide variety of opinion. We cannot, no one may bind the conscience of another man--whether on the subject of alcohol, tobacco, rock music, or driving convertibles. Only the Bible may do that. And we make our "house rules" confessional, which is to "say together" something. To have a standard (the Bible) and house-rules is to automatically admit up front that such declarations are going to leave some people outside, for now or for good. That is too bad, but it is the reality of a world of sin and of differences not necessarily of sin.

I can state with fair certainty, that no one has been banned from the PB for a baptismal dispute, unless they were promoting a view of baptismal regeneration. That is simply out of bounds here. It isn't within our (relatively) broad baptism doctrine. Sometimes a person leaves a discussion angry. Or quits publicly. When they do that, sometimes they are "banned" because there is no other way to register their board status at that point. There have been folks banned for sheer argumentativeness. And for a lack of respect for the discipline of the board. Again, while we may make mistakes, we have to act in good faith, and in what are apparently the best interests of the majority sometimes.

The rules have come to be as they are by initial decision modified by trial and error. The church membership requirement is reflective of our unwavering belief that God commands it of his people, and 1) the PB has been a wrongful surrogate-church for some people, 2) we are not identifiable just by our name but by communion with the Body. God will even judge our internet use and board-adminstration, so we must run this place first of all with an eye to pleasing him.

The church I belong to has a reputation for being a strict church, one that has even (!) excommunicated people. "What are you, a cult?" Some have even left in a huff without discipline--if we were careless, insensitive, and sinful shame on us; if not, shame on them. But I tell you what, I have seldom been a part of a fellowship of Christian confessors who showed more love to each other in all my life. This is a product of discipline, not in spite of it.

I suppose we are viewed quite a bit, unbenownst to us. That is the nature of a public forum. And our conduct is constantly being judged. Just like it happens each and every day we wander about in our communities. And people make hasty judgments. They judge on the basis of past experience. They may be right, or way off base. Scripture tells us to "live at peace with all men" as far as lies within us. Beyond that, we cannot help if someone judges us.

If someone reads the many posts of administrators like webmaster, or Fred Greco, or posts of DTK, VH, or pastorway, and comes away thinking ill of them or this board that they run or are extremely active on, I say "shame on them" for a rush to judgment, or simply poor judgment. This board will always challenge people who come across it. For many it will be a place they cannot be at home in, for any one of a host of reasons. We will never be a mega-board, a grandma's lap where there's never anything hard or unpleasant. It will always be real here.

Henry, I hope you continue to feel welcome.


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## Puritan Sailor (Oct 25, 2005)

For the record, (this from a previous Admin)



> For the record:
> 
> Less than 3% of board members have been banned (around 30 out of almost 900) - and each case was preceeded by interaction between the member and several members of the moderator and admin staff. No one to my knowledge was ever banned over a debate on baptism unless it was because of their tone and attitude in the debate. Some who have been banned were banned for their attitude and demeanor toward other members. And some have been banned for advocating heresy, not just a disagreement, but a blatant denial of Biblical truth.



Hope that clears some things up.


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## Henry from Canada (Oct 26, 2005)

I have some concerns. These concerns may be bogus, but I feel I have a duty to warn you of how possibly you may be discouraging seekers. 

A lot of this is colored by my own experience here.

I was initially rejected by this group. I didn't even get an email telling me how I could reform myself to be acceptable.

I sent an email to the board saying:
'I am Reformed.
The reasons I don't attend church right now:
- I have a mobility problem because I have no car and a physical disability
- the churches I've considered nearby are not Calvinistic'

I got this response to my email:
'Unfortunately, our board requires that you be a member of a local assembly...Allowing you would cause me to be called to the carpet.'

I eventually was accepted to this group after a number of emails, but the whole process provoked deep thought. I have never seen a professing Christian group deny me a forum to ask questions. I told a Pentecostal about this, and he said that that figures, 'Calvinists are heartless.' I disagreed.

I started reviewing bio's and posts of banned and rejected members.

With only very very limited exceptions, the posts were thoughtful and non-abusive. I noticed that some banned members seemed to have differing, but thoughtful, views over baptisms. I sincerely thought they were banned because of these views. The debates were somewhat heated. If I am wrong, please forgive me. 

But honestly, some of those banned members seemed like good Christians. Maybe you might want to check out the posts of some of these people yourself. No doubt, I don't see everything, some of these members maybe deserved to be banned. But I can't see the reasoning for some bannings.

I also looked at the many people with rejected memberships. Surely, some of these people should have been rejected - but all of them?

Dustybeliever said he was:
'In need of a brother helping me back up and dusting me off and urging me onward." He was not approved. Did you at least direct him to sources of information to help him locate a proper church? Did you?

Please look at Matthew Poole's bio. Why did you not want him on the board? What about Matt Guernsey? Gabriel? What about the many others.

When you rejected their memberships, did you at least send them on their way with information as to how to discern proper theology? Did you followup in any way? 

There are many hurt and confused people out there. Their contact with this board may be their only exposure to Reformed Christianity. How well do you think you represented Christ to these people. 

I really do not know. Maybe God is really happy you rejected potential members in this fashion, in which case I must look really stupid.

I hesitate to offer this suggestion because the focus of this board seems to be sharpening YOUR own swords, but maybe you could initially have a forum to help unchurched people learn Christian basics. Or, maybe you could at least direct them to people that are willing to deal with the unchurched.

I used to greet people at a church when I was healthy. I used to see strangers come to the door and wonder what they thought. I hope the only contact with professing Christianity wasn't cold rejection from me. I hesitate joining any group that doesn't even bother sending a remedial email to tell seekers why they were rejected. 

I hesitate to offer this advice because the focus here seems to be YOUR needs, not the needs of others. Maybe this is okay, because you actually own the board.

I really don't know.


At this stage I am considering terminating my membership. If you want to ban me go right ahead. I don't want to cause dissension. 

I could be dead wrong on all this. If so, please accept my apology. 

If I am not wrong, don't say I did not warn you.

On a more positive note: I have found some of the posts here quite helpful. Pastor Way, for example, had a number of things to say that cleared up some confusion on my part. In a world of lukewarm Christians, some of the thoughtful posts here are really refreshing. 

But I don't want to join a debating forum. I have some basic Biblical questions that I can get answered elsewhere on the internet. 

I wish all of you the best.

Goodbye, Henry


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## bond-servant (Oct 26, 2005)

Henry

I'm no admin, not even near.. just a member. But what I do know, is many times there are deleted posts that may have been abusive or otherwise inappropriate. As it was stated, there are rules to the board and all members are expected to abide by them. 

You'll never see the deleted posts doing a historical search. 

Also, as was said, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a man by thier PB profile.

I don't know any of these that you are mentioning, so I have no one specific in mind, just general observations.


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## pastorway (Oct 26, 2005)

feel free to email me with your questions

and rest assured that your perception about banned members is simply wrong. I don't mean to be harsh - but some posts were so bad that they were deleted as the member was banned, others had issues going on in private conversations that never made it out on the public board, and others asked to be "banned" and resigned their membership.

If one of the mods would like to, there is a list maintained that gives the reasons members were banned - that list (without the names) could be made public if the mods/admins agreed - just a list of the "why" behind banning members. 

And for the record, several banned members have been welcomed back and reinstated!

Phillip


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 26, 2005)

I pretty much  what Patrick had to say. Please know that the mods and admins sometimes have to have private convesations with or receive private messages from ppl. Sometimes these messages cross the line or a person refuses to listen when corrected about inappropriate behavior. There have been times also when a person has been both privately and/or publically inconsiderate and threatening to other members. Though their posts in most discussions seem fine, these actions do lead to being banned. Thus the reason you cannot always judge by what you see on the public board.

On the baptism issue, the only thing I can think of that would be totally out of line would be the FV view of baptism. This has been pointed out to be considered heretical and the promotion of is not to be tolerated on the board.

There are places online that are open to all type places. However, this board has offered a haven for those of us wishing to learn under those that hold to a certain orthodox position without fear of other things creeping in. It is not a church, however, the admins take their role seriously...for that I am very appreciative. I myself have been corrected on more than one occasion for views that came with from a previous system I had been in. These corrections came about through "debate"...or rather long conversations where each side presented evidence...scriptural, cultural, and historical. Some of us learn best this way. Granted, some have called us "cold"...more like we just stand firm in what we believe and are not easily swayed.

I have a friend who has been perusing the public parts of this board (not a member). She has said that some of it is confusing only because she has not ever heard of some of what is mentioned here. However, it has sent her searching and studying to find out what it's all about. 

There is good and bad points to every forum. Yes, we need to watch our tone and our attitude. One thing I have noticed here...though we tend to get passionate about what we discuss, we have for the most part seemed to come out still in fellowship with eachother. Sometimes some of us have taken a break just to pull our own attitudes together as well.

Please enjoy using the forum and take the time to get to know the ppl here. Feel free to ask whenever you have a question.


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## Henry from Canada (Oct 26, 2005)

Thanks for your responses.

If I am wrong, I am wrong. Please accept my apologies.

But what happens with rejected members? How does PB lead the unchurched masses? Do you have a list of 'approved Reformed web sites' that they can visit? Are these people just left to fend for themselves?

Pastor Way: I may take you up on the email offer if you don't mind. 

It may not be for a few days however. I have to think about my question, and I have to locate the specific passages in the Bible.


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## Peter (Oct 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> But what happens with rejected members? How does PB lead the unchurched masses? Do you have a list of 'approved Reformed web sites' that they can visit? Are these people just left to fend for themselves?



I would advise them to go to a Reformed church. They should go to someone charged with 'shepherding the flock' in his official capacity and not a website or discussion group.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 26, 2005)

Guys, you all know I love this place and will defend it to my demise (for the most part) but one thing many of you really need to realize..reformed churches are FEW and FAR between in a lot of areas in our Country. In a 100 mile radius of where I now live there are 3 reformed churches....*3*!

Where I grew up, I honestly don't think there's ONE anywhere reasonably close. By reasonably I mean within 100 miles.


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## Peter (Oct 26, 2005)

Henry, here's a list of RP churches in Ontario.

Here's the PRC church in Ontario.

You can call or email them if you so desire.


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## Peter (Oct 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Guys, you all know I love this place and will defend it to my demise (for the most part) but one thing many of you really need to realize..reformed churches are FEW and FAR between in a lot of areas in our Country. In a 100 mile radius of where I now live there are 3 reformed churches....*3*!
> 
> Where I grew up, I honestly don't think there's ONE anywhere reasonably close. By reasonably I mean within 100 miles.



Even if you can't physically go due to illness or distance you can still personally contact a minister via telephone or email.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 26, 2005)

Yes, you can indeed do that, but even so it's not the same as having a church home. This board is not either, but still I believe we need to be more understanding. I am fortunate to have a reformed PCA church within minutes of me, but there is only one. If it weren't there I would be forced to be a member of an Arminian dispensational church. That and cults are the only other choices.


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## Here2learn (Oct 26, 2005)

Being new to reformed faith I find this site helpful. I can say it gets a little scary sometimes. Only due to the fact that 99.9% here are brilliant. Me being the .1 thats not.
I know I'm lurking in the shadows reading your posts so I can agree many more must be to.
Keep up the debate I'm learning daily

Pete


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## Peter (Oct 26, 2005)

I think it might be better not to go to any church at all or move if that is an option. Any way, someone enlightened to the truth of the Reformed faith can still contact a reformed pastor, receive occasional visitations, travel to church periodically and regularly keep in telephone contact. That would be my humble advice to someone stranded from a Reformed church and unable to move.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 26, 2005)

Maybe so Josh, maybe so. How does one try and plant a church? Some here may be intrested in doing just that!


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## ChristianasJourney (Oct 26, 2005)

I voted to keep the board open (in case anyone was wondering). It has a purpose.

But I think the participants can help make it a better board by being more tolerant of those who not may be as theologically mature, or have reached the same point in their spiritual maturity. Discussions like,if arminians are really saved, does not help...either in the eyes of the outsiders or in our own attitudes.

[Edited on 10-27-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## Henry from Canada (Oct 26, 2005)

I also voted to keep this board open. Me or anyone else who doesn't like this board can just leave.

The people that stay are accountable for their actions. Me included.

I have checked out other 'reformed churches.'

One 'reformed church' had a member that said he disagreed with Calvinism, and the Pastor just sat there and didn't say a word. When I tried to defend Calvinism, he just sat there. 

This same pastor told me privately that he believed specific (named) people were unsaved, yet before the congregation he assured us all that we were all indeed saved. Do reformed pastors give false assurances that freely? In all the time I attended this church, the pastor never once asked if I was baptised. Is this a true reformed church? (This church has since moved or disbanded.)

Other reformed churches have women pastors. Are these truly reformed churches? I don't know.

I know I seem to make a big deal over supposedly little things. That is because I reflect back on how many times these little things are quite indicative of a person's true heart.

What happens if you are too sick or too poor to move?

The question still remains: How do you deal with the unchurched masses?
Do you just not grant them memberships, and leave them to their own devices?

What do outsiders think when they see posts from banned members that appear to be legimate? Maybe you might want to clearly clarify to visitors that many offensive posts have been deleted. 

Image is very important. Many people think Calvinists are loveless people.
The PB justs seems to reject potential members and leave them with no potential sources of information on Christianity.  Maybe rejected members need a proper grounding in Godly discernment before they attend a Benny Hinn crusade.

Am I the only person here that spent months studying Calvinism before even considering trying to join a church? Calvinism really suprised me - and my forefathers were Dutch Reformed. Am I just really stupid? I had to read, read and read before I came to realize that my Dutch Reformed forefathers were actually pretty cool. Then I searched for a true reformed church.

I hope this makes sense.

Henry


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 26, 2005)

It does it only took a teaching on Romans 9 for me  but then were all different!!

Blade


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## Archlute (Oct 26, 2005)

Henry, 
In several of your posts you have mentioned your concern for what you call the "unchurched masses", and connected this in a disparaging way to the doctrinal discussion and debate that takes place on this board. There seems to be a note of despair in your voice that growing in your bibilically reformed view will dispel. 

It is true that all of us should have a zeal for spreading the Gospel in the world, it is also true that Christ's Word would have us not bring disrepute upon that same Gospel, but it may help to remember that even in early Christianity, where the small seed of the Kingdom was surrounded by paganism and an antagonistic Judaism, Paul recognized that many of the doctrines hotly defended here before world would indeed be offensive and foolish, yet he did not worry about this, for Christ's truth is both a sweet fragrance to life (as many of us can attest) as well as the pungent smell of death (as it has become for many of whom we know). Nor did he worry about "unchurched masses", but rather joyfully strove that he might "bring in the elect" (2 Tim. 2:10, Titus 1:1). This is the work given the church as the minister preaches the Gospel and the elect are brought in, it is not the work of any board, nor should it be the focus of this one. Here is where questions of doctrine are worked out among those who already believe.

This is why it is so important that, if at all possible, you find a faithfully reformed church, for it is among the body where your concern that the elect may be brought in will be engaged in a fulfilling way. Remember, although we are responsible as secondary agents in our work for the LORD, it is the Primary Agent and His sovereign decree that will assure that not even one of all Christ's sheep will perish. First, take comfort in this truth, and then rengage in the struggle of the fight of the faith (with all of the ongoing and painful work of the Holy Spirit's sanctifying us which that entails).


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## Archlute (Oct 27, 2005)

And P.S., Henry, welcome to the board. May you find God gracious to you in your search. For many it has been a long and hard road to the truth as it is in Christ Jesus. Good to have you here.


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> One 'reformed church' had a member that said he disagreed with Calvinism, and the Pastor just sat there and didn't say a word. When I tried to defend Calvinism, he just sat there.
> 
> This same pastor told me privately that he believed specific (named) people were unsaved, yet before the congregation he assured us all that we were all indeed saved. Do reformed pastors give false assurances that freely? In all the time I attended this church, the pastor never once asked if I was baptised. Is this a true reformed church? (This church has since moved or disbanded.)
> ...



While I do not have the right to say they are not true churches, I can and will say that such practices are absolutely _not_ consistent in any way with historic Reformed theology. That is true of the former case you mention just as much as the latter. As the Puritan William Ames put it, "Theology is doctrine or teaching _of living to_ God" (emphasis mine). While I of course am not familiar with the particular situation, from what you described, the fact that the pastor just stood there when a member was questioning Calvinism and you were trying to reason with him, is disgusting. Neither that or the other situations you mention are consistent with the Reformed understanding of the Chuch's great responsibility to point seekers and believers to Christ, and I am truly sorry that you had to experience that, especially at churches claiming the title "Reformed."



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> I know I seem to make a big deal over supposedly little things. That is because I reflect back on how many times these little things are quite indicative of a person's true heart.
> 
> What happens if you are too sick or too poor to move?



I think everyone here would agree that certain circumstances are simply beyond the person in question's control, and indeed that exceptional decisions are acceptable (and even required) in exceptional circumstances. But the fact remains, as I expect you would probably agree with, that the majority of believers in America today who do not have a church home do not have one mainly because of apathy, laziness and ignorance, and that most such people have not done all they can to find a good church and are not in exceptional circumstances.



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> The question still remains: How do you deal with the unchurched masses?
> Do you just not grant them memberships, and leave them to their own devices?



That is definitely a question worth asking, and likewise one worthy of attention. For now, just know that it is not an issue to which no reflection is being given. As has been pointed out, in any case, the very _last_ thing we want is for the board and the internet in general to take on the role that properly belongs to the Church in any of these considerations.



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> What do outsiders think when they see posts from banned members that appear to be legimate? Maybe you might want to clearly clarify to visitors that many offensive posts have been deleted.



That again is a good point, and again, just know that it is not simply being ignored.



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> Image is very important. Many people think Calvinists are loveless people.
> The PB justs seems to reject potential members and leave them with no potential sources of information on Christianity. Maybe rejected members need a proper grounding in Godly discernment before they attend a Benny Hinn crusade.



(See above.)



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> Am I the only person here that spent months studying Calvinism before even considering trying to join a church? Calvinism really suprised me - and my forefathers were Dutch Reformed. Am I just really stupid? I had to read, read and read before I came to realize that my Dutch Reformed forefathers were actually pretty cool. Then I searched for a true reformed church.



You are not alone in that matter by any means! I was largely in the exact same boat you describe when I first encountered the Reformed faith. I had to fiercely study and compare quite a few sources in light of Scripture for several months before beginning to come to terms with much of it, not to mention embracing it. And like the majority of the members on this board in fact, my struggle through the doctrines of grace was only the beginning of an equally intense wrestling of other key issues, and that process is always continuing.



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> I hope this makes sense.
> 
> Henry



What you are saying definitely makes sense, and as others have said, I am honestly thankful for your call to reflection on these issues. At the same time, please know that the Administrators and Moderators, as well as members, take the role played by them and the board seriously and as such are constantly thinking about such issues, and have been as long as the board has been around. That does not mean we do not acknowledge a need to always be reforming and open to charitable admonition, but I would also encourage you to always offer such admonition in a humble way, and in this case to also check your own heart for possible early presumptiveness, and to give more of the benefit of the doubt to the board's owners, particularly regarding their decisions to accept and reject specific members as well as the thought that goes into banning on their part.


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## Henry from Canada (Oct 27, 2005)

Hello,

Just so you know, there may be a church 120 miles away that may be acceptable. I had an opportunity to visit it a few weeks ago, but I had to pass because I was too weak physically. I didn't want to take a chance.

There is another church about 40 minutes away that seems to be good, but that is a expensive and draining hike.

There is another church 400 yards from my home. On a good day I could visit it, but I don't think its calvinistic. I do hope to visit this church in the next few weeks, weather permitting.

This may seem bad, but when you have a chronic illness, your health needs determine to a hard extent how you live. For example, there is a doctor shortage in Canada. A disabled person has to think, 'If I move to this city, will I be able to find a proper doctor?'

If I feel subpar, can I get around safely? If I fall and break a hip, I may not leave the confines of my apartment for months. This could be the straw that gets me wheelchair-bound permanently.

I'm not really hung up and the church issue right now. Though I am terribly grieved that so many of the churches I have checked out are unacceptable to me. Sometimes I wonder if I am just too darn picky. But really, if a church says its evangelical, I expect it to take the Bible very seriously. My previous posts were meant to highlight the difficulty finding a proper reformed church. Can you understand this?

To be brutually frank with you, right now I am dealing with what I think is a more pressing problem. I don't mean to sound crude, but yesterday I had to go to the washroom 6 times in 3 hours. My doctors say this is a natural outcome with my illness. OK fine: Then why is it on other other days I have no problem? 

My world is different than your world. I can no longer work. Mailing a letter entails an exhausting walk. I'm at the mercy of government bureaucrats. I can't safely walk some streets because I can't cross the road on a green light. When I go to a mall, I have to measure my steps carefully because I do not want to collapse from fatigue.

If my own unchurchness is a problem, then please feel free to ban me from this site. I admire Christians that take a consistent stand. It's refreshing.

I can get my questions answered elsewhere. Maybe that's God's plan.

If my unchurchness angers God, then unfortunately I will suffer the consequences.

My first question still remains: When your board rejects a membership application, do you just leave him to fend for himself. Do you at least provide guidance as to how to discern Benny Hinns, et al of the world?

I ask this question not really for my sake. When I join a Christian group of any type, I want to know their heart and their priorities. I have learned to be very careful when dealing with professing Christians. Also, I ask out of concern for someone like dustybeliever.

This whole process has been very humiliating for me. 

I have nothing more to say.


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## Henry from Canada (Oct 27, 2005)

In response to my own question, maybe a web site could be created that explained in plain simple english such issues like:
- what is calvinism and its Biblical backup
- what are possible dangers with Benny Hinn, et al
- what are the various interpretations to Revelation

This web site could link to other web sites that explain these issues concisely and simply.

Maybe people like dustybeliever could read these sites to gain some discernment.


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## pastorway (Oct 27, 2005)

A rejected member can still read the board and the email addresses of participants are readily available at the bottom of their every post.

The Puritan Board is also not the only place online or in the world to get theological questions answered. People should be talking to Christian friends, family members, and to their pastor or others at church. Face to face fellowship and discipleship is Biblically mandated and the internet is not a substitute. Honestly, discipleship is difficult when in a virtual realm as it is so much easier to deceive when a person cannot look into your eyes and see your facial expresssions and body language. An internet forum is not a substitute for the church. 

Now people who are genuinely unchurched (providentially hindered or no sound church to go to) should do all that they can to find a church, including moving if necessary or working to help plant a new work. It is that important. And to be just as frank, too many people are unchurched because they chose to refuse to go, join, visit, or become accountable to a local body. 

In your case, where there are a list of hindrances, you should at least call the church close to home and see if the pastor or a deacon will come visit you in your home. If the church is not acceptable, so be it. Keep praying and looking. But until you have investigated the church that is 400 yards from your home then you have not exhausted all means at your disposal for finding a church home. Don't wait or hesitate. You should be talking to people from that church today.

I know there are physical limitations but I also know many good churches that will send people around to minister to those who are not able to attend services due to providential hindrances. Sometimes we have to reach out and ask the church to do its job! We will be praying for you as you seek His will in this matter and as you look for a church that lives by the Book!

Phillip


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## pastorway (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> In response to my own question, maybe a web site could be created that explained in plain simple english such issues like:
> - what is calvinism and its Biblical backup
> - what are possible dangers with Benny Hinn, et al
> ...



Websites:
http://www.monergism.com/
http://www.ligonier.org/
http://www.alliancenet.org/
http://www.gty.org/~phil/bookmark.htm
http://www.desiringgod.org/
http://www.reformed.org/

Exposing BAD theology:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/bad_theology.html
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/
http://www.watchman.org/watchman.htm
http://www.gty.org/~phil/bookmark.htm
http://aomin.org/

Reformed Preaching Online:
http://www.prbc.org/Sermons2.htm
http://www.tbcnj.org/sermons/sermons1.html
http://www.sermonaudio.com/timeintheword
http://www.tulipfaith.com/audio/index.html#sermons
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/desiring_god/
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/truth_for_life/


I am sure others could add some! It is a start anyway!

Phillip


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 27, 2005)

Henry, please understand that different websites are up for different purposes. 

Some are private/members only for reasons of unity and fellowship (a safe haven if you will)...I am a member of several of these (quiverful, homeschooling, reformed christian, homemaking) as I do not wish for a place where I do not constantly have to debate these issues, but instead have a place where others are on the same page as myself and support me through the difficult points of these issues.

Others, as stated before, are put up as an open spot for EVERYONE. These are places where we debate, defend, and confront those that are totally in a different ballpark than ourselves.

The PB seems to be a place where I can be encouraged. I take what I learn here and at church to discuss or give reasonable answer to those that would ask or that I would deal with in my everyday life. I'm guessing these are the "unchurched masses" you are refering to, though many are familiar with various belief systems. Also, we are not a church. Our churches are the ones that send out the missionaries and where we form mercy ministries. And online forum cannot do that. However, ppl are free to read the discussions here and learn from those. As on any forum, there will be disagreements.


On your concern about banned members. I believe this has been explained as well as possible. As for what others think...we are not worried about that, we have to be concerned with what is best for the board. Also, I wonder why your trying to dig and worry about this, even though it has been answered. When joining a board, I don't go through the files to see who has been banned and what their posts were (especially knowing that posts get deleted for various reasons, ie trimming the space used on a board or removal of inappropriate posts). To me, I wasn't there, I don't know the situations, and to try to figure it out leads only to mere speculation and thus is not worth the time due to speculation on such generally coming out inaccurate anyhow. Why is this such a concern?

In your case, please understand that an exception has been made due to extenuating circumstances. Help and advice has also been offered. Many churches are willing to come visit homebound members, even at a distance. You can generally receive taped messages from the church as well and be accepted in membership. My 90yr old landlady is homebound. She's suffered congestive heart failure, has skin cancer, is almost totally deaf, and is basically on her way. Her minister visits her, as do a couple of members. The ministers bring her communion as well.

Most of the ppl that are banned due to not having a church are banned as there ARE churches within reach, they CAN physically get there, but have made absolutely NO effort to attend or join with one of those churches. Their reasonings for not attempting have nothing to do with ability or availability. 

Please except the difference in your case and theirs. Please take the advice of others and at least make the attempt to call some of those churches that you mentioned and see what they can do for you. That is what they are there for.

[Edited on 10-27-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 27, 2005)

> If my own unchurchness is a problem, then please feel free to ban me from this site.



Henry,
Have we not already clarified the boards position on this subject and your extenuating circumstances? Let us move past this issue.

As far as outsiders go, in order to make a viable judgment they would need all the information. In this case, they will not have that material available to them and they will either level the wrong judgment towards us or give us a portion of grace.

[Edited on 10-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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