# What think ye? (Dave Wilkerson's new prophecy)



## Reformingstudent (Mar 9, 2009)

Famed pastor predicts imminent catastrophe

Could he be right or is he another false prophet?
I had his book, "Set the trumpet to thy mouth" years ago when I was in the AOG church and he was warning of certain doom that was going to happen back in the 80's. Of course none of his predictions came to pass. Russia did not nuke us and the end had not come.
Should he be listened to or dismissed as a false prophet? Any opinions would be appreciated. 
And I think I know what the consensus will be.


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## Matthias (Mar 9, 2009)

false prophet.... hands down


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## historyb (Mar 9, 2009)

Is this the same Dave Wilkerson that wrote the Cross and The Switchblade? I like the book


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## Athaleyah (Mar 9, 2009)

Once a false prophet, always a false prophet.

God's prophets are 100% every time.


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## JohnGill (Mar 9, 2009)

Athaleyah said:


> Once a false prophet, always a false prophet.
> 
> God's prophets are 100% every time.



Hal Lindsey has a twin?


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## Reformingstudent (Mar 9, 2009)

historyb said:


> Is this the same Dave Wilkerson that wrote the Cross and The Switchblade? I like the book



Yep.
Dat b da man


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## Athaleyah (Mar 9, 2009)

JohnGill said:


> Athaleyah said:
> 
> 
> > Once a false prophet, always a false prophet.
> ...



Eh?


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## Matthias (Mar 9, 2009)

I enjoyed "The Cross and the Switchblade" as well, but that does not change the fact that Wilkerson and his ministries are full of theological quackery. I have a friend who recently completed his 1 year in the teen-challenge program started by Wilkerson. The program was highly effective in helping my friend overcome his addiction to drugs, but (and my friend will be the first to admit this) he came out of the program spiritually and theologically damaged from the horrendously watered down and weak gospel they preach.... 

Some of the things they preach and claim in the name of Christ is truly disturbing. I would be very leary of anything this man teaches, or claims as a "prophet"


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## DMcFadden (Mar 9, 2009)

Despite his lifetime of good works and sacrifice for the sake of Christ, I fear that Rev. Wilkerson is the "twin separated at birth" of Rev. Pat Robertson. Both have a tendency to read their subjective impressions as words from the Lord. Unfortunately, both of them have a pretty poor track record of prophetic prediction.


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 9, 2009)

If he would just leave God out of it, then I would have no problem with the prediction. We could then take it for what it is worth, a fallible man making a prediction based on the information that he has. Either we agree with it or not, no big deal.

CT


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## Scott1 (Mar 9, 2009)

Reverend Wilkerson has done some admirable things that God has used. He wrote an influential book, _The Cross and the Switchblade_, and his church has ministered to a lot of down-and-out people in New York City. His church and efforts had a direct impact in cleaning up parts of that city, particularly in the 1980's. There is reward in heaven when believers do such things.

The problem here again revolves around the reliance on, and accountability for I Cor. 12 "spiritual gifts." 

We have what would appear to be one of the more credible "charismatic" Christian leaders. We have someone claiming to rely on a gift of "prophecy" in the foretelling sense and groups of people in christian communions taking the pronouncements as equally true as Scripture. 

The problem is that while some have, arguable at least, come to pass, others have not. We have what would be considered an Old Testament application (charismatic/pentecostal practice would argue "continuation" in the same form, for the same purpose, and as an "ordinary means" of grace), but without the Old Testament accountability (or any accountability at all).

I realize the continuation of the claimed spiritual gift in the same form and for the same purpose is not the topic of this thread. But for all who advocate this I Cor. 12 "prophecy" gift as continuing today here is an example of the problem. The pronouncements are taken as "gospel." Lots of money and attention are made. Some parts do not come true.

And there typically will not be any accountability within charismatic/pentecostal communions. No Scriptural self-examination or repentance. 

Does this create unity, order, peace... or truth? Does it glorify God? 

Politicians, economists, all sorts of people create false expectations all the time, sometimes for manipulative purposes. But is it not qualitively different when someone claiming spiritual authority, acting on authority of God, does the same thing?


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## William Price (Mar 9, 2009)

If a man prophesies falsely once, does that not make him a false prophet? So, since Wilkerson has done so, then what does that make him?


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Mar 9, 2009)

What are some of Wilkerson's false prophecies? I know he's been predicting economic collapse for a loooong time now.


(P.S. Don't let my sig fool ya, I'm a cessationist!)


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## Herald (Mar 9, 2009)

A few years back a hurricane was tearing up the east coast headed for Maryland. It was downgraded to a powerful tropical storm by the time it hit Ocean City. I was doing business on the eastern shore of Maryland on that day and decided to drive to Assateauge inlet to see the sea churning in all its fury. I arrived at the Ocean City south parking lot and stood about fifty yards from the inlet; less than five hundred feet from the ocean. It was an awesome sight. The waves were huge and even the inlet had white caps. As I was standing there I saw two wave runners (personal water craft) heading out of the inlet towards the ocean. The first word that came to mind was "idiots." I said to myself, "Self, those two guys are in for trouble." Was I a prophet? Well, seconds later the wave runners halted their forward motion. The storm surge heading up the inlet drove both water craft onto the shore of Assateague Island, which was on the other side of the inlet. The two riders were thrown into the water just yards from the island. They managed to scramble up on the shore, but their wave runners were taken by the storm surge and carried up the inlet. These two guys were stranded on an island that had been evacuated the day before. They nearly drowned and probably lost their water craft for good. 

What's my point in telling the above story? It doesn't take a prophet to predict a calamity when the circumstances provide a high probability that a calamity will occur. The world economy is in shambles and terrorism is at an all time high. It doesn't take a genius to predict a catastrophe.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 9, 2009)

to the prophesy


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## lynnie (Mar 9, 2009)

Gee, I posted this a few days ago and they deleted it quick, how come you rate 

I think Wilkerson is the closet thing to a modern day Agabus that I know of. Before the first gulf war he "saw" 500 fires burning in the mideast and people scoffed. Then Saddam invaded Kuwait and before long there were over 500 oil wells on fire. Ever see the national geographic with the pictures from the air? Mind boggling.

In 1987 he walked into church early one day and told his elders that the stock market was gonna crash and they all went down to Wall Steet and stood outside and prayed for the nation to repent. Sure enough that morning it crashed and his stories of the guys coming out in dread and panic and anguish were fascinating. "There goes my home, there goes my boat, there goes my retirement, there goes college tuition".

Wilkerson predicted all kinds of things in the 70s that have come to pass, things even I didn't expect. Homosexuality openly on TV for example. Most of what he wrote has happened exactly as he said. Of course as Herald said, it doesn't take a vision to see how the current is flowing once a nation turns from God, passes Roe vs Wade, etc.

I've been on Wilkersons newsletter for 20 years. He reads and quotes everybody from Owen, Edwards, and Spurgeon on down. He grasps the sovereignty and grace of God as much as any Presbyterian I know. Yeah he has some doctrines I'm not comfortable with, but his life of unceasing service to the dregs of humanity bringing them the gospel, at great personal sacrifice, should be respected. 

Wilkerson states repeatedly that he is not a prophet, he just gets some visions ( gee, last time I read Acts it says that in the last days people will see visions) and he NEVER says they are infallible nor does he ever say they are canonical. He also repeatedly says you don't need a prophet to read the bible and see what happens when a nation is blessed by God and then turns from Him in rebellion. His commentary on why God is-will be- judging the church- His people- for their preoccupation with money and entertainment is right on.

Isaiah prophesied for over 50 years and it often sounded imminent. Some things delay, that we might repent.

I thought it interesting that he says to stock up food for a month. He has never been into that mentality before.

10,000 Jihaders in the USA , 100 nuclear devices missing from the USSR and sold on the open market by Cechnya, a self centered nation plunging into economic depression with multitudes on cocaine and meth, and people have problem with this prophecy?? Hey, we've been stockpiling food for a while here and I never had a vision.

This is a good place to get long term packaged items that keep 20 years minimum:
Emergency Essentials - Be Prepared Emergency Preparedness Food Storage

I suggest you get quick oats and powdered milk, and depending on what the kids will eat, rice and beans, or pancake mix and powdered eggs. Then peanut butter, tuna, pasta, and so forth. Toilet paper, soap, coffee.


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## Skyler (Mar 9, 2009)

I have an idea. The Bible says that to tell a false prophet, you wait and see if his prophecies come to pass. If they do, then he's of God; if not, then he's a false prophet.

...though, of course, suitably ambiguous prophecies are probably "fakeable"...


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## turmeric (Mar 9, 2009)

Lynnie, the thread was deleted because this is a Confessional board and it is anti-Confessional to believe in the continuation of the gift of predictive prophecy.

*MOD ON: This is a Confessional discussion board. I'm not deleting this post b/c otherwise the warning has no context, however, any further posts espouxing this unconfessional view of continuing predictive prophecy will be deleted. MOD OFF*


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## lynnie (Mar 9, 2009)

Tumeric, thank you for the explanation.

I can only appeal to you and the other eye rollers here to read part 12 in this essay by Vern Poythress at Westminster Theological Seminary where he lists- as a cessationist-some of the extraordinary experiences of the great Reformers ( including even one who helped draft the Westminster standards). 

There are probably some issues with semantics here. I do not think anything going on with Wilkerson is any different from some of the extraordinary things Vern Poythress discusses and affirms. None of this is canonical or infallible or questioning the sufficiency of scripture. I hope you will at the very least read what Vern has to say. Thank you. I tend to think it is Wilkerson's readers who attribute labels to him that he himself would never think or say.

Modern Spiritual Gifts as Analogous to Apostolic Gifts


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## fredtgreco (Mar 9, 2009)

So I expect if NYC is not surrounded by flames within the year, Pastor Wilkerson will submit to a public stoning?

[bible]Deuteronomy 13:1-5[/bible]

[bible]Deuteronomy 18:20-22[/bible]

You just have to love vague, unverifiable, pseudo-prophecies.


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## JohnGill (Mar 9, 2009)

Athaleyah said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> > Athaleyah said:
> ...



Hal Lindsey has made numerous false predictions as will.

(I was referring to Wilkerson.)


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## Pilgrim (Mar 9, 2009)

On the postmil/recon side, you have Gary North as a prophet of doom, (although of course he doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord) and it started long before Y2k. In a local used bookstore here they have a book of his circa 1983 that warns of imminent catastrophe.


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## JohnGill (Mar 9, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> On the postmil/recon side, you have Gary North as a prophet of doom, (although of course he doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord) and it started long before Y2k. In a local used bookstore here they have a book of his circa 1983 that warns of imminent catastrophe.



But did he say that he was, "compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message" about his prediction?


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## fredtgreco (Mar 9, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> On the postmil/recon side, you have Gary North as a prophet of doom, (although of course he doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord) and it started long before Y2k. In a local used bookstore here they have a book of his circa 1983 that warns of imminent catastrophe.



A reason I don't listen to a thing that comes out of North's mouth now.


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## raekwon (Mar 9, 2009)

If anyone is interested, Piper has commented on this prediction on the Desiring God blog.


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 9, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > On the postmil/recon side, you have Gary North as a prophet of doom, (although of course he doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord) and it started long before Y2k. In a local used bookstore here they have a book of his circa 1983 that warns of imminent catastrophe.
> ...



It would be interesting to see how much money one would have lost or gained by following North's advice over the years.

Losing over 50% in the course of a year equalizes the game quickly.

CT


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## fredtgreco (Mar 9, 2009)

ChristianTrader said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Pilgrim said:
> ...



Money is not the issue. Scaremongering and using the Lord and His Word for personal publicity and manipulation is.

My guess is that there are any number of money managers that could have saved me much money over the years - doesn't mean I am going to listen to them either, and they are not even guilty of the crass demagoguery that North is.


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 9, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> On the postmil/recon side, you have Gary North as a prophet of doom, (although of course he doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord) and it started long before Y2k. In a local used bookstore here they have a book of his circa 1983 that warns of imminent catastrophe.



Without "Thus saith the Lord", then what is the big deal? Everyone makes predictions all the time, from what jobs will be in demand down the road, so they can adjust their education schedule, to what route to take to work will be fastest. Either it is correct or it is not. If it turns out wrong, you attempt to analyze the why and make new predictions. If it turns out correct, then you go with it until circumstances change.

CT


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## Richard King (Mar 9, 2009)

Any one who watched one night of news could come to this conclusion and easily state vague predictions. This is easily derived and not a conclusion that would prove a word uttered from the Holy Spirit 

Fred is right. By the cause and effect karma system D Wilderson has laid out, then the headquarters of his church in Times Square will be the first to go due to proximity to wickedness.

I have run around in circles over this kind of thing in the past. No more.


Here is what I ask, say and do now that I am older and wiser:
ask...
is this a "feeling" or a thus sayeth the Lord? (hold a bag of stones in your hands when you ask)

is this catastrophe God's will?
If it is can you stop it?
If it isn't is there anyway on earth it will happen? 

It amazes me how frantic we get over things we have ZERO control over and how lethargic we are about the things we could change.
Watch! More energy will go into teaching people how to store food than ever went into fighting abortion for instance.

What does God's word say in regard to this?
If it IS going to happen what is the role of a minister or a believer beyond predicting it?
In other words, if I were to give you this one as a truth...now what?

I say,
love God and enjoy him forever. 
If I am a few months away from forever, 
so be it.


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## timmopussycat (Mar 9, 2009)

Reformingstudent said:


> Famed pastor predicts imminent catastrophe
> 
> Could he be right or is he another false prophet?
> I had his book, "Set the trumpet to thy mouth" years ago when I was in the AOG church and he was warning of certain doom that was going to happen back in the 80's. Of course none of his predictions came to pass. Russia did not nuke us and the end had not come.
> ...



Dismissed as a false prophet due to his previous predictions having not come to pass.

-----Added 3/9/2009 at 04:17:30 EST-----



Scott1 said:


> Reverend Wilkerson has done some admirable things that God has used. He wrote an influential book, _The Cross and the Switchblade_, and his church has ministered to a lot of down-and-out people in New York City. His church and efforts had a direct impact in cleaning up parts of that city, particularly in the 1980's. There is reward in heaven when believers do such things.
> 
> The problem here again revolves around the reliance on, and accountability for I Cor. 12 "spiritual gifts."
> 
> ...



Wilkerson is certainly not one of the more credible charismatic leaders even though he has done much good. By the standards of the NT he is a false prophet.

-----Added 3/9/2009 at 04:28:13 EST-----



fredtgreco said:


> So I expect if NYC is not surrounded by flames within the year, Pastor Wilkerson will submit to a public stoning?
> 
> [bible]Deuteronomy 13:1-5[/bible]
> [bible]Deuteronomy 18:20-22[/bible]



Um, only if, by that time, legislation has been passed to punish false prophecy with the death penalty.

But other disciplinary possibilities remain, and I do wish that churches would discipline members who give forth failed prophecies. If Pastor W. has presented his statement in a "Thus saith the Lord" format then it must be considered and treated as a prophecy and, if found false, he ought to be disciplined accordingly. 

Now if, on the other hand, as I gather from Lynnie's post he may have done, Pastor W. offered his "vision" to the church as something other than a prophecy, and it fails of accomplishment then I am not sure discipline is possible. Funny things do happen to God's people from time to time including accurate intimations of future events, but these need not be considered as the biblical gift of prophecy.


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## Scott1 (Mar 9, 2009)

> *timmopussycat *
> Wilkerson is certainly not one of the more credible charismatic leaders even though he has done much good. By the standards of the NT he is a false prophet.



It seems Mr. Wilkerson would be acknowledged as one of the leading charismatic/pentecostal leaders. His influence has been large, some of it has been good.

As for the good, he has clearly challenged some of the "prosperity" gospel teachings of the "Word of Faith" movement, and he has done so from the standpoint of arguing Scripture.

As for influence, some people may not know the many charismatic/pentecostal influenced organizations he has had a part in founding or building. (Again, I would acknowledge God has done some good through him, not least of which being part of a real renaissance of the Times Square area of New York). I only wish to make a point here that, by rights, he ought be taken as one of the most influential in their communions.

Consider this brief history from wikipedia:


> In the early 1960s David Wilkerson, his wife Gwen, Loren and Darlene Cunningham, and Howard and Pat Foltz, prayed together in Colorado. Their prayer birthed 3 ministries: Teen Challenge USA (Wilkerson's), YWAM (Cunningham's), and Teen Challenge Europe-Asia (Foltz's), which have reached youth and adults, many with life-controlling problems worldwide, through its centers and ministry. Teen Challenge's USA and Europe-Asia ministry is a biblically based recovery program for drug addicts that has been recognized as one of the most effective efforts of its kind [1].
> 
> In 1967, David Wilkerson began Youth Crusades, an evangelistic ministry that was aimed to reach teenagers whom David Wilkerson called "goodniks" — middle-class youth who were restless and bored. His goal was to prevent them from becoming heavily involved with drugs, alcohol, or violence. Through this ministry, CURE Corps (Collegiate Urban Renewal Effort) was founded. It was intended to be something of a Christian version of the Peace Corps and VISTA.



So, the Reverend has been quite influential in groups like YWAM, Teen Challenge, CURE, even before his well-known work at Times Square Church.

The difficulty many have is not only the fact that extra-biblical pronouncements are taken as equal of Scripture, but that there does not seem to be a mechanism for self-examination from the standpoint of Scripture, or for repentance within the charismatic/pentecostal communions that so readily accept them.

There often seems to be no way sought to address the harm to the peace and purity caused the church, and the fallout of many hurt and disaffected people who over time, drop out of visible church communion.


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## historyb (Mar 9, 2009)

This is my take on this and I hope I don't get in trouble for this here. I read pastor Wilkerson's blog post and while many here are quick to jump on the band wagon against anything goes against what they think things should be like I see it differently.

I don't see it as a prophecy per say but as a warning, which as someone said here does not take a rocket scientist to see it. I think the biggest problem in pentecostal/charismatic circles is that some people see things going on and formulate an idea, thought and instead of realizing that they came up with the thought they say the HS told them. I remember from my time in Pentecostalism this type of thing was big, though sometimes it was evident people thought that themselves. These are my thoughts


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## gene_mingo (Mar 9, 2009)

I will start with two from this false prophet:


He preached this in the Solomon Church in December of 1994:
"Right now I sense in my spirit that in less than 5 years there will be no more so-called gospel television networks. They will all fall into bankruptcy and absolute ruin."

From a prophecy of September 7, 1992:
"I have had recurring visions of over 1,000 fires burning at one time here in New York city. I am convinced race riots will soon explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!...federal and State Welfare cutbacks will be the spark that ignites the fuse. Next year, New York City could have over 100,000 angry men on the streets, enraged because they have been cut off from benefits....Federal troops will have to move in to restore order. New York City will have tanks running down its avenues....Churches will be closed for a season because it will be too dangerous to travel about. Fires will rage everywhere."




> I don't see it as a prophecy per say but as a warning



OT prophets gave many warnings from God.


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## historyb (Mar 9, 2009)

I think the reformed here make to much out of this, In my humble opinion that's all


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2009)

My favorite part about modern prophecies is that they focus on what will happen to America, sometimes even to the exclusion of every other nation in the world. Judah (US) gets the voice of God and Israel (Canada + pretty much everyone else) gets virtual silence from heaven. Curious.


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## Scott1 (Mar 9, 2009)

historyb said:


> This is my take on this and I hope I don't get in trouble for this here. I read pastor Wilkerson's blog post and while many here are quick to jump on the band wagon against anything goes against what they think things should be like I see it differently.
> 
> I don't see it as a prophecy per say but as a warning, which as someone said here does not take a rocket scientist to see it. I think the biggest problem in pentecostal/charismatic circles is that some people see things going on and formulate an idea, thought and instead of realizing that they came up with the thought they say the HS told them. I remember from my time in Pentecostalism this type of thing was big, though sometimes it was evident people thought that themselves. These are my thoughts



It's always difficult to pick out facts and clarity in accounts like this. That's part of the problem with believing in extra-biblical revelation and basing one's belief on it.

The Reverend said he had a "prophetic vision" and wrote a book in 1973 called "The Vision" based on it. From the summaries, it was quite specific except not specific about time.

The point is this man is known for this. Whether He is claiming a spiritual gift is a prophecy or, as it is being quoted in the press, "an urgent message...compelled by the Holy Spirit," it illustrates the problems following such or this man's pronouncements in particular _as a basis of our faith._ That is the real issue.


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## Herald (Mar 9, 2009)

historyb said:


> This is my take on this and I hope I don't get in trouble for this here. I read pastor Wilkerson's blog post and while many here are quick to jump on the band wagon against anything goes against what they think things should be like I see it differently.
> 
> I don't see it as a prophecy per say but as a warning, which as someone said here does not take a rocket scientist to see it. I think the biggest problem in pentecostal/charismatic circles is that some people see things going on and formulate an idea, thought and instead of realizing that they came up with the thought they say the HS told them. I remember from my time in Pentecostalism this type of thing was big, though sometimes it was evident people thought that themselves. These are my thoughts



Doug, that does happen. I was in the Assembly of God movement during my early Christian years and heard people make pronouncements that were supposed to be a word of knowledge. In actuality it was their own convictions and opinions cloaked in the supposed authorship of the Holy Spirit. But therein lies the problem and the deception. To attribute something to the Holy Spirit that is not true is a lie. It's not just a minor error. It's serious business. When I preach the only time I will ever dare say "thus sayeth the Lord" is when I am quoting the Word of God verbatim. Anything beyond that is dangerous ground.


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