# Rushdoony & Reconstruction: when to get out of an institution.



## Tim (Mar 2, 2009)

I have recently been listening to some of the Calcedon podcasts. The hosts a few times have mentioned that reconstruction is not reforming an existing institution but creating a new alternative.

The example given was people taking their children out of state schools and homeschooling them. Homeschooling is the alternative that now has a healthy number of people participating. 

Question 1. I would like to know more about this notion of "creating an alternative".

One further thought I had is that when one decides to create an alternative, they have to decide when to leave the established institution. My personal situation is that I am an academic hoping to work as a professor once I get my PhD. How godless do universities have to get before I must leave? The best example of this is the reformers leaving the Church of Rome. They labored inside it for a time, and then could do it no longer. Might we someday see a new legion of Christian universities "protesting" the corrupt and godless humanist institutions?

Question 2. How do you know when to get out?

If your answer is "we need Christian professors in secular universities", I will reply, yes, but there will be a point where one must leave. This is what I want to know about.


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## TimV (Mar 2, 2009)

Seems like we Christians start all sorts of neat things, like schools, universities, hospitals, Churches, aid organisations and the list goes on.

I'd take a step back from your question and ask why we let the institutions we started get taken away from us.


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## Brother John (Mar 2, 2009)

TimV said:


> I'd take a step back from your question and ask why we let the institutions we started get taken away from us.



Great question! We seem to walk in the ruins of christian institutions. Reminds me of Lord of the Rings when they are walking through ruins of ancient civilizations that were once massive and powerful. I feel that way walking through our land. It seems the orcs have taken our civilization and turned it to ruins. Anyone seen Aragorn and Frodo....


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## Thomas2007 (Mar 2, 2009)

Tim said:


> Question 1. I would like to know more about this notion of "creating an alternative".



I think there becomes a point where corruption become "institutionalized" and there is very little hope of making changes within an existing institution. I think one has to ask themselves the questions as to what ability they actually have to reform something.

An example of this may be the academic world and the way in which universities have institutionalized the theory of evolution. Many have tried to simply introduce other ideas, Intelligent Design for example, or even question the basic premise of the evolutionary dogma, and find themselves "blackballed" and in many instances out of a job. It becomes very difficult to reform something if you get terminated for what is essentially a heresy against the established position.

The same is true of Christian institutions - we are going to bear down on heresy. The difference seems to be, though, that we attempt reforms within the infrastructure of an institution, and we seem to be more tolerant of dissenting opinions, when they are in our institutions. Whereas non-Christians seem to defer to and use the force of law, in one way or another, to enforce toleration of their heretical teachings and eventually outlaw dissent.

If you look at the government schools then, it isn't just that their are non-Christians involved, it is that the force of law bears against Christians very harshly, and has been brought to bear down on even individual liberty of those that attend these institutions. 



Tim said:


> Question 2. How do you know when to get out?



A lot of decisions of when to leave an institution are actually made for us. The public school, for example, the decision was made for me by numerous Courts and regulations to not enroll my children in those institutions. Having gone through the public school and learning after I got out of how much I didn't have freedom to learn, but also how much I was actually lied to and indoctrinated into an enforced atheism, I simply don't have a choice to send my children there, as far as I am concerned.

I don't know if there is any pat answer - but while we have the freedom to emigrate from that which is hostile to our beliefs, it is a good idea to use that freedom. For me, then, you can butt your head against a wall for your entire life and not make a dent in it, but if you have the freedom to walk around it you should. There's also the matter of using our time and resources wisely and doing all we can to advance the Kingdom - there does come a time when front line battles are necessarily waged, but not everything has to be a frontline. We can flank the enemies of Christ without retreating and without surrender, and I think that is the idea behind building parallel institutions.


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## jwithnell (Mar 2, 2009)

I think its significant that the early church had to work within the context of the Roman Empire -- their situation more closely matches what so many have faced in history; we are trying to thoughtfully function as believers within a context that does not recognize or understand our Savior. We know that God will ultimately protect his people, but we may have a tough situation in the meantime. 

For the most part, here in the west, we have choices. I don't think the same answer can be given in all situations. My husband teaches in a public school. He has been able to bring a high level of integrity to his profession and has been able to be a real encouragement to believing students. Not everyone would be comfortable working in his situation.

The college level may be even more difficult as it seems that there has been an all-out assault on the Christian faith since at least the 1960s. I seriously questioned whether or not to stay at a state school (as a student), and ultimately decided to stay because I had an excellent church that was just being planted. 

I find the history of the early Westminster staff interesting because of their decision to pull out of Princeton. Perhaps some of that would be illuminating for you? Perhaps the dividing line might be whether or not you'd be forced to teach something that is contrary to God's word? Perhaps you think you'd be a real blessing to believing students and that the casual discussions with other students might give you an opportunity to advance God's kingdom? Many questions; many choices ....


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## lynnie (Mar 2, 2009)

"I find the history of the early Westminster staff interesting because of their decision to pull out of Princeton. Perhaps some of that would be illuminating for you?"

I just finished Iain Murray's bio of John Murray and skimmed part of the Stonehouse bio of Machen. I was thinking about this very subject. Machen tried so hard to bring reform from within. Neither he nor any of the good guys who stayed at Princeton had to change what they taught, but neither was Princeton willing to get rid of those teaching heresy. Machen and others ended up started WTS but some stayed at Princeton.

I don't think you'd have to leave a secular godless Univ so long as you are not forced to compromise truth. Depends what you teach...big difference between math or chemistry, and psychology or ethics. 

It would be different if you took a job somewhere in a Christian organization and they then turned from truth to heresy.

I've become somewhat cynical about reforming anything. We lived through a church going waaaayyy off and I watched elders try and appeal to no avail for two years. I read all about Martyn Lloyd Jones and what he went through with ecumenical compromisers on the most basic truths of Christianity like the resurrection. Machen with the PCUSA is another. On an individual level I've seen people slide off into some awful stuff and they don't listen to anybody at all.....not pastors, not closest friends. And politics in the USA...forget it. Ron Paul was the closest thing to OK but that's over. 

I tend to think its better to get out fast these days and not fight to reform. Of course I am not a guy, and not called to battle the way some guys are called by God, so my opinion does not mean much at all . But I don't even fight it real hard in the prayer closet either. I used to give so much prayer time to people making sinful choices. Now I put my prayer time more into those walking with the Lord. Maybe I am just burned out? 

Well, may God give you wisdom. I do think jwithnell is onto something when he says to read up on early WTS days and the break with Princeton.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 2, 2009)

Tim said:


> How godless do universities have to get before I must leave? The best example of this is the reformers leaving the Church of Rome. They labored inside it for a time, and then could do it no longer. Might we someday see a new legion of Christian universities "protesting" the corrupt and godless humanist institutions?
> 
> Question 2. How do you know when to get out?
> 
> If your answer is "we need Christian professors in secular universities", I will reply, yes, but there will be a point where one must leave. This is what I want to know about.



Your question, is as you say, "when MUST I leave." I think the answer to that is this: You must leave when you are not allowed to preach/teach/live in accordance with your conscience. So in that respect, you having to leave is dependent upon them putting you in a position where you are not allowed to peacefully coexist.

Now, of course, you can choose to leave prior to that point - indeed, in many cases I would - because after all, they may let you stay there preaching and teaching what you believe, but they'll add incredible stress and frustration to your life. I wouldn't want to voluntarily be in a situation like that unless I was very certain that this is where God wants me to be.


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## ZackF (Mar 13, 2009)

Tim said:


> I have recently been listening to some of the Calcedon podcasts. The hosts a few times have mentioned that reconstruction is not reforming an existing institution but creating a new alternative.
> 
> The example given was people taking their children out of state schools and homeschooling them. Homeschooling is the alternative that now has a healthy number of people participating.
> 
> ...



My answer is close to SS's. An obvious answer is when you are thrown out. Luther, Machen and other were thrown out. The Puritans were also thrown out. You will know for sure then.


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