# The moment of death?



## Osage Bluestem (Dec 3, 2009)

What do you believe happens at the moment of death and why? Does the soul go to meet God, go to heaven or hell or does it sleep or wait somewhere until the final resurrection? Why do you believe this?

How is a soul without a body aware of what is going on? Can it see, feel, hear...etc? 

What are the best scriptural pasages that teach about souls without a body?


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## Prufrock (Dec 3, 2009)

*We* believe the following:
*WCF XXXII.1*
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.​With the following proof-texts:
[1] GEN 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. ACT 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption.

[2] LUK 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ECC 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[3] HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 2CO 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. PHI 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better. ACT 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. EPH 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

[4] LUK 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ACT 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. JUD 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 1PE 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.​


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## Osage Bluestem (Dec 3, 2009)

Well, that pretty much covers it. I thought there might be some discussion on this but that doesn't really leave any room for speculation.

Does anyone believe in soul sleep?


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## a mere housewife (Dec 3, 2009)

I just wanted to add that one of my favorite parts of the answer in the shorter catechism (q. 37) which is for some reason not elaborated in the Confession is that our bodies during this time, are still _united to Christ _while they 'rest in their graves' -- for which is referenced the 'sleeping in Jesus' of 1 Thess iv. 14. (Incidentally, then, it seems that references to 'sleep' are more properly applied to the body, even though it is in a state of corruption?)


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## Jimmy the Greek (Dec 3, 2009)

No soul sleep. Here is what Paul says;

Phil 1:21-24 -- For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, *having the desire to depart and be with Christ*, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. [emphasis mine]


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## Osage Bluestem (Dec 3, 2009)

I've noticed on some other message boards that there are a lot more Soul Sleep people than I had ever imagined.

I don't understand why soul sleep is so popular out there.


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## Peairtach (Dec 3, 2009)

DD2009 said:


> What do you believe happens at the moment of death and why? Does the soul go to meet God, go to heaven or hell or does it sleep or wait somewhere until the final resurrection? Why do you believe this?
> 
> How is a soul without a body aware of what is going on? Can it see, feel, hear...etc?
> 
> What are the best scriptural pasages that teach about souls without a body?



It may be difficult to concieve of the soul without the body. 

In lieu of further elucidation from other PB members who may or may not have greater understanding on this subject, remember that angels and demons don't have bodies and seem to get on all right. Angels are able to appear with a visible form, we learn from Scripture.

-----Added 12/3/2009 at 02:03:16 EST-----



DD2009 said:


> I've noticed on some other message boards that there are a lot more Soul Sleep people than I had ever imagined.
> 
> I don't understand why soul sleep is so popular out there.



Because of the JWs?

Because it's easier to understand and people don't like things they don't understand?


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## a mere housewife (Dec 3, 2009)

DD2009 said:


> I've noticed on some other message boards that there are a lot more Soul Sleep people than I had ever imagined.
> 
> I don't understand why soul sleep is so popular out there.



I wonder if it is in part because Scripture does use the language of 'sleep' to speak of death, and of 'awaking' etc; and people don't have the hermeneutical method to apply those properly to the physical rather the spiritual aspect of our being (or perhaps even to understand that both have a future -- that we do not simply become disembodied souls at death)? I love this doctrine more because I didn't realise until in my twenties that we would have bodies in heaven: I understand now that our great hope is the reunion of both soul and body in a complete salvation when Christ comes for us again.


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## Wayne (Dec 3, 2009)

The error of soul sleep is held by, among others, the Apostolic Christian Church. I ran into members of this group while in the Army. They take a non-combatant status (1-AO) and are trained as medics. Anabaptist in their doctrines, the denomination has its origins in Switzerland and they are known as Evangelical Baptists in Europe. In this country, the ACC is strongest in the midwest.


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## Skyler (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm not sure what you mean by "soul sheep". Sheep don't have souls.


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## Peairtach (Dec 3, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> > I've noticed on some other message boards that there are a lot more Soul Sleep people than I had ever imagined.
> ...



We won't have bodies in Heaven, as far as I'm aware, although if angels can appear visibly, I'm sure God can make whatever provision is needed for our felicitation, consciousness and satisfaction.

We don't get our resurrection bodies until the New Heavens and New Earth which we will inhabit at the end of time.

The eschatalogical pattern of the arrival of the New Creation is therefore:-

(a) The creation of Christ's soul and body in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

(b) The giving of the Holy Spirit without measure to Christ for His ministry at His baptism.

(c) The resurrection of Christ's glorified body joined to His soul, which soul and body had paid the full price for sin.

(d) The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

(e) The conversion of sinners after Pentecost, constituting them spiritually New Creations. 

(f) The transformation of the bodies of believers at the General Resurrection.

g) The transformation of the whole of the Old Creation into a New Heavens and New Earth for Christ and His people shortly after the General Resurrection.

The New Creation is a process that has already started in God's people as it were in seed form.


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## a mere housewife (Dec 3, 2009)

Is it improper to speak of the new heavens and earth as 'heaven'? I have always thought that since heaven comes down to earth (so I understand the city coming down in Revelation?), and we are no more separated from God in the new Creation, that we will dwell in heaven eternally?


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## earl40 (Dec 3, 2009)

DD2009 said:


> I've noticed on some other message boards that there are a lot more Soul Sleep people than I had ever imagined.
> 
> I don't understand why soul sleep is so popular out there.



The Seventh Day Adventist also believe in soul sleep. I have had this discussion with a nice fellow who receives "hard" questions from their site. What is interesting is that many think this is a tangential issue but it can touch on essential doctrine that is vital to the faith. The people who espouse this doctrine within the church will usually say that Jesus was asleep the 3 days between His Death and Resurrection. Now this is a major problem because.......This makes Jesus a liar because He said

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body. "


Sort of hard to do if you are asleep.


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## Peairtach (Dec 3, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> Is it improper to speak of the new heavens and earth as 'heaven'? I have always thought that since heaven comes down to earth (so I understand the city coming down in Revelation?), and we are no more separated from God in the new Creation, that we will dwell in heaven eternally?



You could call it Heaven, as long as you and those you are speaking to know what you're talking about.

I tend to reserve "Heaven" unqualified for the place where our souls go at death and where God's glory and presence are particularly revealed at present. There, the Book of Hebrews says, are "the spirits of just men made perfect". I or II Thessalonians (?) teaches that we will come with Christ at His Second Advent to be re-united with our bodies.

The New Creation or New Heavens and New Earth or Eternal Realm for the state after the End of the World.

I suppose "the Heavenly Kingdom"/"Eschatalogical State"/"Eternal Realm"/"Heavenly Realm" could cover the intermediate period and also the New Heavens and New Earth.

There is nothing "scientific" about this usage. See what standard Reformed theologians say and/or see what the Bible says.


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## Dwimble (Dec 3, 2009)

I've seen a few people attempt to make an at least reasoned case for "soul sleep" for the wicked until the resurrection and judgment, but never for the elect. I don't agree with their conclusions, but their arguments aren't generally outrageous and don't require ignoring large portions of scripture like those who say that it also applies to the elect.

In simplistic terms, their assertion is the wicked go "to the grave" and then immediately (from the wicked's perspective) go to judgment at the resurrection. They are dead in spirit and know nothing between death and resurrection...from physical death to resurrection and judgment. They aren't going to go to hell, be taken out of hell in resurrection, judged, and then put back into hell. They die, know nothing, are raised, judged, and then sent to hell. The elect, on the other hand, are alive in spirit and go immediately to be with Christ.

I don't have the time right now to try to look up all the arguments and scriptures they use to support their postion, but the biggest argument I see them have to overcome is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, since that parable has one of the wicked in torment speaking to Abraham after death. Their rebuttal to it is usually along the lines of, "it is a parable, meant to teach something, not to be a literal illustration of what happens when you die."


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## CharlieJ (Dec 3, 2009)

*Luther and Soul Sleep*

Luther believed in a sophisticated form of soul sleep. Seriously, go look it up. It's quite interesting.


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## MarieP (Dec 3, 2009)

DD2009 said:


> Well, that pretty much covers it. I thought there might be some discussion on this but that doesn't really leave any room for speculation.
> 
> Does anyone believe in soul sleep?



How about Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Tabitha, Eutychus?

Do you think God put their perfected souls back into their sin-cursed bodies? Do you think that, after seeing clearly, they went back to seeing through a glass darkly again? It's speculation, but perhaps God, knowing He'd raise them from the dead, put them into some sort of soul-sleep.

But that's the possible exception and not the rule. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

-----Added 12/3/2009 at 09:36:53 EST-----



CharlieJ said:


> Luther believed in a sophisticated form of soul sleep. Seriously, go look it up. It's quite interesting.



Where should I go to read about this?


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## earl40 (Dec 4, 2009)

MarieP said:


> [ How about Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Tabitha, Eutychus?
> 
> Do you think God put their perfected souls back into their sin-cursed bodies? Do you think that, after seeing clearly, they went back to seeing through a glass darkly again? It's speculation, but perhaps God, knowing He'd raise them from the dead, put them into some sort of soul-sleep.




Now that deserves a thread by itself.


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## Peairtach (Dec 4, 2009)

Skyler said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "soul sheep". Sheep don't have souls.



But there are "soul sheep". Sheep that are into "soul". "Soul music" that is. Mainly black sheep to start off with, but it quickly began to be appreciated by the white community.

-----Added 12/4/2009 at 07:38:46 EST-----

*Quote from Marie P*


> How about Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Tabitha, Eutychus?
> 
> Do you think God put their perfected souls back into their sin-cursed bodies? Do you think that, after seeing clearly, they went back to seeing through a glass darkly again? It's speculation, but perhaps God, knowing He'd raise them from the dead, put them into some sort of soul-sleep.
> 
> But that's the possible exception and not the rule. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."



It's a bit of speculation, since we unfortunately can't interview Laz, etc.

-----Added 12/4/2009 at 07:46:57 EST-----



Dwimble said:


> I've seen a few people attempt to make an at least reasoned case for "soul sleep" for the wicked until the resurrection and judgment, but never for the elect. I don't agree with their conclusions, but their arguments aren't generally outrageous and don't require ignoring large portions of scripture like those who say that it also applies to the elect.
> 
> In simplistic terms, their assertion is the wicked go "to the grave" and then immediately (from the wicked's perspective) go to judgment at the resurrection. They are dead in spirit and know nothing between death and resurrection...from physical death to resurrection and judgment. They aren't going to go to hell, be taken out of hell in resurrection, judged, and then put back into hell. They die, know nothing, are raised, judged, and then sent to hell. The elect, on the other hand, are alive in spirit and go immediately to be with Christ.
> 
> I don't have the time right now to try to look up all the arguments and scriptures they use to support their postion, but the biggest argument I see them have to overcome is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, since that parable has one of the wicked in torment speaking to Abraham after death. Their rebuttal to it is usually along the lines of, "it is a parable, meant to teach something, not to be a literal illustration of what happens when you die."



How can they be dead in spirit? The unsaved are spiritually dead even now, but that doesn't mean that their souls/spirits are dead or non-existent but means that they are separate from the spiritual life of God. 

The human soul cannot die or be annihilated. If soul sleep means anything, it cannot mean that our souls die or are annihilated between death and the resurrection.

It would have to mean that we are unconscious as in sleep or anaesthesia. But there doesn't seem to be evidence for this for the saved or unsaved.


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