# Is chiropractic medicine legitimate?



## shackleton (Apr 21, 2008)

I know of a local pastor who does not believe in mental illness or any thing that pertains to psychology, psychiatry, anything that man has come up with that pertains to the mind and illness and especially treating certain people with psychotropic meds. However he does _not_ have a problem with chiropractic medicine. If anything psychology has more credibility than chiropractic medicine does... 

any thoughts?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 21, 2008)

I went to one after I got rear ended and had whip lash, he massaged my back in a variety of methods and cracked my spine and neck, I felt it helped alleviate the discomfort quite a bit.


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## SRoper (Apr 21, 2008)

Historically, chiropractic is a rival system to medicine. It rejects the germ theory of disease and is quite frankly quackery. Even today the majority of chiropractors believe that subluxation of the spine and joints play a role in all disease. There are some chiropractors who practice a reformed chiropractic that is actually science based, but I'm not sure if there are any schools that actually teach it. I avoid chiropractors altogether, but you may be able to tell the good from the bad by asking what they believe about subluxations and their role in disease.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 21, 2008)

Chiropractors should not be called Doctors. They have no scientific knowledge behind, only hand manipulation skills.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 21, 2008)

SolaGratia said:


> Chiropractors should not be called Doctors. They have no scientific knowledge behind, only hand manipulation skills.


That's not true, many go to med school, are included on health insurance plans and take x-rays all of which require a valid medical license to perform.


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## Kevin (Apr 21, 2008)

Scot is dead on. Some view what they do as a form of physical therapy, in so far as that is what you are seeking then they are ok.

I have visited a DC several hundred times due to a spinal injury aprox 20 years ago. They can provide some temporary symptomatic relief, but if they promote subluxation theory, they are quacks. Period.


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## Kevin (Apr 21, 2008)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> > Chiropractors should not be called Doctors. They have no scientific knowledge behind, only hand manipulation skills.
> ...



If they go to med school they are not called chiropractors, they are called doctors.

Many health insurance plans will pay for alternative treatment, that is not a test of legitimacy in my opinion.


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## puritan lad (Apr 21, 2008)

SolaGratia said:


> Chiropractors should not be called Doctors. They have no scientific knowledge behind, only hand manipulation skills.


Right on. My sister is a chiropractor. Her degree is in Music from Liberty University.


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## DMcFadden (Apr 21, 2008)

In California a Chiropractor must copmlete a four year program (after at least 90 semester units of prereqs including lots of undergrad biology and chemistry). The first *few* courses of the program in California include the following: 

Introduction to Research, ANA 566 Head/Neck Anatomy, PHY 560 Renal/Digestive Physiology, CHE 568 Basic Nutrition, 570 Microbiology I: Bacteriology, PAT 572 General Pathology, DIM 518 Normal Radiographic Anatomy, NNA 600 Neuroanatomy, PHY 602 Neurophysiology, MPH 616 Public Health II: Epidemiology, MPH 604 Microbiology II: Virology/Parasitology/Mycology, PAT 606 Cardiovascular/Pulmonary/Gastrointestinal Pathology.

So, here anyway, that means at least 7-8 years of formal college/post college ed.

As for the subluxation stuff, I'm with you guys . . . it's a crock along with their whole disease model.

But, if you have an automobile accident, these folks will do more for you than the average M.D.

A chiropractor in my Rotary club did a very erudite presentation on arthritis a couple of weeks ago. I asked an M.D. in the club what he thought. He said, "frankly, if I had an accident or back problem, I'd rather go to a chiropractor than another physician. They would do more to help me and get me feeling better."

When younger, I thought they were one step up from a voodoo "doctor." Getting older, the strength of their skills is not lost on me as the old body ages and creaks a bit.


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## Scot (Apr 21, 2008)

My newborn having her first chiropractic adjustment last week...gasp!

All of my children (and my wife and I) regularly see a chiropractor. My kids don't see a pediatrician...gasp! My kids range from less than a week to twelve years old and none of them have ever been on a medication of any kind (not even children's tylenol). 

I don't buy into the theory that a subluxation is the root cause of all disease but neither do I buy into the whole concept of the germ theory. I work with and know many chiropractors and have seen their techniques fix many problems where the md's only had drugs to use for symptom suppression.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 21, 2008)

Scot said:


> My newborn having her first chiropractic adjustment last week...gasp!
> 
> All of my children (and my wife and I) regularly see a chiropractor. My kids don't see a pediatrician...gasp! My kids range from less than a week to twelve years old and none of them have ever been on a medication of any kind (not even children's tylenol).
> 
> I don't buy into the theory that a subluxation is the root cause of all disease but neither do I buy into the whole concept of the germ theory. I work with and know many chiropractors and have seen their techniques fix many problems where the md's only had drugs to use for symptom suppression.



This has been our experience as well. Our chiropractor is also trained and licensed in homeopathy and nutrition among other things. Her vast understanding of the human body/disease and how nutrition and emotional and spiritual (and I am referring to the Scriptural approach) health are linked is amazing.

I could tell story after story of how this doctor has helped various family members with medical problems and without using prescription drugs using this holistic approach.


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## Scot (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> This has been our experience as well. Our chiropractor is also trained and licensed in homeopathy and nutrition among other things. Her vast understanding of the human body/disease and how nutrition and emotional and spiritual (and I am referring to the Scriptural approach) health are linked is amazing.
> 
> I could tell story after story of how this doctor has helped various family members with medical problems and without using prescription drugs using this holistic approach.



Years ago I happened to mention to my pastor that I was thinking about seeing a chiropractor for my severe headaches. He told me that his chiropractor had really helped him with alot of problems. I made an appointment and during my second week of adjustments, the headaches went away. I used to get them everyday and would eat tylenol like candy. To my surprise my leg cramps that I had since I was an infant went away also. My parents had taken me to md's who said it was just "growing pains."  Well, I was full grown and I was still getting bad leg cramping. After my pelvis was adjusted, those also disappeared.

I'm glad my pastor encouraged me to go.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 21, 2008)

*But how does one find a competent one?*



Scot said:


> My newborn having her first chiropractic adjustment last week...gasp!
> 
> All of my children (and my wife and I) regularly see a chiropractor. My kids don't see a pediatrician...gasp! My kids range from less than a week to twelve years old and none of them have ever been on a medication of any kind (not even children's tylenol).
> 
> I don't buy into the theory that a subluxation is the root cause of all disease but neither do I buy into the whole concept of the germ theory. I work with and know many chiropractors and have seen their techniques fix many problems where the md's only had drugs to use for symptom suppression.


I've wished I could find one for Don, for he has a pinched nerve in his neck that hurts frequently, but he's scared that a chiropractor will inadvertently damage the nerve.

But I suspect a skilled chiropractor might do him some serious good.

OTOH, a lousy one could do him some significant harm. Don't want him to wind up



!


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## JBaldwin (Apr 21, 2008)

> I've wished I could find one for Don, for he has a pinched nerve in his neck that hurts frequently, but he's scared that a chiropractor will inadvertently damage the nerve.
> 
> But I suspect a skilled chiropractor might do him some serious good.
> 
> OTOH, a lousy one could do him some significant harm. Don't want him to wind up !



Anne, sadly this is true. You really have to be careful who you see.


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## Scot (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> Anne, sadly this is true. You really have to be careful who you see.



But that goes for any profession.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 21, 2008)

*True, but how does one find a competent chiropractor?*



Scot said:


> > Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> > Anne, sadly this is true. You really have to be careful who you see.
> 
> 
> But that goes for any profession.


My father's an attorney, so when I need one that's not a problem, and I like my doctor but doctors generally aren't given to recommending chiropractors, It seems to me.

Just word of mouth? Slyly bring up chiropractors whenever I'm around other people, hoping eventually someone'll pipe up enthusiastically about their own?


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## Pilgrim (Apr 21, 2008)

A couple of months ago I had a couple of ribs that were out of place that were causing me significant discomfort. My wife's family swears by chiropractic and goes on a regular basis, the result of a car accident several years ago. I used to joke that if one of them had a broken arm that they would try to have the chiropractic fix it. But when I started experiencing some pain and could feel my ribs out of line and basically protruding on my right side (I'm still not sure exactly what caused it, must have been some kind of cumulative effect) I really couldn't imagine what an MD would do to fix it. Two trips to the chiropractic and I haven't had any problems since.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 21, 2008)

Gryphonette said:


> Scot said:
> 
> 
> > > Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> ...



No but the ambulance chasing lawyers can always recommend one and vice versa, especially if you have been in an accident.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 21, 2008)

Gryphonette said:


> Scot said:
> 
> 
> > > Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> ...



The best success I have had is to talk to people who can recommend one. There are medical doctors who recommend chiropractors, but I don't know how you would find them.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 22, 2008)

Anything that has to do with what is known as alternative medicine or natural medicine, like homeopathic, its fine with me. I rather drink a tea for my stomach or a calcium pill for my cramps. But it is not medicine. Please, don't get me wrong, I do go to my Chiropractors every so often. At the same time, I exercise and watch what I eat. Thanks to my wife who is a Medical Doctor, who has study medicine, nutrition, alternative or natural medicine. For example, I once suffered from heart burn problems and she made me drink cabbage juice and some kind of tea, instead of a prevacid or nexium medicine pill, and guess what I was heal.

Recently, Chiropractors have added different types of healing to their profession so that they would be able to expand what they have to offered. In California, it just so happen that some have even added prostitution, medical lawsuits, insurance frauds, marijuana usage service, etc. 

Chiropractors when using medicine are really trying to be Doctors of Osteopathic medicine. If you go to a Chiropractors for headaches you are really wasting your money. You are better off going to your nearest Whole Food Store to talked to the alternative Nutritionist.

In America, Chiropractors are not allowed to prescribed medicine, they have tried to do this but the AMA (American Medical Association) really came hard on them. 

Internationally, Chiropractors are not as respected or used as in America or do not exist. You go to your local bone manipulator to get fixed.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 22, 2008)

*Isn't THAT the truth?*



Pilgrim said:


> No but the ambulance chasing lawyers can always recommend one and vice versa, especially if you have been in an accident.


Mercy Maud, here come the ambulance-chasing attorneys! 

As if having been involved in an accident isn't _enough_ of a pain.





It does provide at least a little amusement to be able to thank them for their offer, but as my father's the Z in the law firm X, Y and Z, it's really not necessary. 

Shuts 'em up a treat, so it does.





I don't add that he's been retired for years. He's still Mr. Z of X, Y and Z, after all, with an office and letterhead stationery. ;^)


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## Scot (Apr 22, 2008)

Originally posted by *Gryphonette*


> But how does one find a competent one?



Ask around and talk with people to see what results they've had from different practitioners. My chiropractor has been in practice for over 35 years and sees around 600 people a week. He wouldn't be that busy if he wasn't effective.

..:: Welcome to Bouma Chiropractic Clinic, P.C. ::..


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## Pilgrim (Apr 22, 2008)

Gryphonette said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > No but the ambulance chasing lawyers can always recommend one and vice versa, especially if you have been in an accident.
> ...



With some older large prestigious firms, the names at the top of the letterhead have been deceased for years, but usually there are some descendents in the firm still carrying the torch.


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## Scot (Apr 22, 2008)

> You are better off going to your nearest Whole Food Store to talked to the alternative Nutritionist.



Thanks! That's me! but I not only have an office beside the health food store, I also work in chiropractic offices.


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## py3ak (Apr 22, 2008)

A chiropractor cleared up some long-term severe headaches which pills and nutrition had failed to deal with, so I'm hesitant to criticize them too strongly; obviously, we don't spit on "organized religion" even though we're all familiar with hireling "shepherds", so the existence of lunatic chiropractors doesn't illegitimize the profession.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 22, 2008)

Ruben,

How did your Chiropractor clear up your headaches?


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## Mushroom (Apr 22, 2008)

Quackopracty?

Used to think so, but one did relieve some severe back pains a few years ago. And I know of an RE who is one, and one of the kindest and most sincere people I've ever met, so I plead ignorance.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Apr 22, 2008)

I agree with much of what has been said re: chiropractors and MD's. Chiropractors are good for manipulations and provide some temporary relief for mechanical problems such as herniated spinal discs, poorly aligned joints, etc. But this can be very dangerous. A chiropractor may help alleviate your headaches, but if the headache is caused by a brain tumor, the delay in diagnosis and treatment could be fatal. The key to good medicine is treating the underlying disease process, not simply masking the symptoms. 

As a physician, I have to admit we don't have the answers to everything, and that "natural" or osteopathic medicine has some benefits. However, the vast majority of alternative medical treatments (chiropractic adjustments, accupuncture, etc) are not science or evidence based, and work only in very select circumstances. They often only alleviate symptoms rather than treat the underlying disease. If you have an infection, you should take antimicrobials. If you have breast cancer, you should likely have a mastectomy with or without reconstruction. But if you have a lower back problem, it wouldn't be a bad idea to try a chiropractor or massage therapist first. When in doubt, go to an MD. If they are worth their salt they will refer you to a chiropractor if need be.


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## py3ak (Apr 22, 2008)

Gil, I'm not quite sure. After the first visit my headaches started to diminish, and now that I've been a few times, instead of it being normal for me to have a headache, days when I have a headache stand out as unsual, and I can usually trace a cause, like not drinking enough, etc.

Of course, what we say about chiropractors, that there are good ones and bad ones, applies to all kinds of people, including nutritionists, homeopathic people, MDs, etc.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 22, 2008)

Ruben, if you're not sure, neither does your Chiropractor know and that is not a healing. Do drink plenty of water, watch what you eat, exercise, and I highly recommend you visit a Whole Food Store or something similar. Also, avoid foods with High Fructose Corn Syrup unless you are in Mexico then it is o.k. to drink a Coca-Cola which uses 100% pure sugar cane.


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 22, 2008)

Scot said:


> > Originally posted by *JBaldwin*
> > Anne, sadly this is true. You really have to be careful who you see.
> 
> 
> ...




Very true, as in all things, Caveat emptor.

As George Carlin once observed, by process of elimination one can eventually find the world's worst doctor. And the strange thing is that someone acctually has an appointment with him/her tommorow.


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## py3ak (Apr 22, 2008)

Well, I had thought the headaches were due to allergies, but the x-rays did show that I carry my head very far forward, so it is possible they were caused by tension. But as long as they're gone I'm not going to complain.

I had always wondered why Mexican coke tastes so much better than American. Now I know.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 22, 2008)

I suffered from allergies and I eat natural wild honey for that, it has really help me. 

If only Martin Luther would have paid attention to how the papist (from Southern Europe, that is) took care of themselves we would of... well, only God can tell.


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## Galatians220 (Apr 22, 2008)

Here's a link to a site I've relied upon for years, as a professional in plaintiff litigation and as a patient myself: Quackwatch. It makes for a very interesting read, at least.

That referenced, there's a lot to be said regarding the benefits of good chiropractic. Someone I went to school with has a degree in "medical chiropractic," and the good that he does for people who have, say, twisted their backs in a misguided, heavy-lifting maneuver, or suffered some types of torsion in car accidents, etc. is incalculable. He is a fine physician in every sense of the word: he knows what many M.D.s and D.O.s do not, which is the first rule in any sphere of medical practice: *"**primum non nocere," *or, of course, "first, do no harm." He knows when to refer patients to a medical neurologist, orthopod, neurosurgeon, internist or whatever, and when, in the alternative, a particular patient is presenting with a set of symptoms that he can treat. A good chiropractor is a great find.



Okay. I'll be quiet. I just wanted to weigh in on this one for you, Shackleton.


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## shackleton (Apr 22, 2008)

Let me just say for the record that I personally don't have anything against chiropractors I just thought it was strange that psychology was considered taboo but not chiropractic medicine. Plenty of people are helped by both...and there are good and bad in both.


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## bfrank (Apr 22, 2008)

Low back pain is one of the most common ailments facing americans today. Though I agree with snippets of what has been said here, if I had low back pain...I would want someone who could determine the pain generator and treat it accordingly. Many times that is overlooked. For instance, herniated discs were spoken of earlier. That is all well and good but is it a prolapse? a protrusion? a sequestration??? If one of the MDs I worked with referred patients with disc prolapses and sequestrations to a chiro...I'd be suspect of the referring doc...because we are quite possibly looking to worsen the situation. It has been shown that if the low back pain is a chronic condition there is a chemical sensitization process at work that no mobilization or adjustment will clear up completely. However, medical intervention followed by PT has been shown to work effectively.

As far as the cervical spine and chiropractic adjustments...look at the literature. Who has the most lawsuits  My main gripe in this situation is that chiros use high velocity, high thrust manipulations to address most issues. PTs worth their salt would advocate high velocity, low thrust manipulations...but would favor joint mobilization over the former...depending on the situation. Consider a car door...if your car door did not shut all the way in a parking lot would you A) walk away from the door 50 ft...get a running start...and hit it with all you have. Or B) use your hip to nudge it into place. I'm an advocate of the latter and have great outcomes in my clinic.

It is true that not all chiros are bad. If you have an orthopedic chiro who specializes in solid evidence based practice there is a good chance you'll have a good result. This, by the way, is physical therapy.

However, though we strive for evidence based practice...PTs, MDs, and DOs...(and probably even chiros) know that we all do things in the clinic...that work in the clinic...but the research isn't there to support it.

If a chiro tells me he can cure cancer, or liver failure, or an infant needs to begin adjustments post-partum because the spine is supposed to be symmetrical...I call hogwash. We all know some have straighter spines than others...and scoliosis is a real condition. However, we live in a fallen world and there is no perfect spine...

OK, though much more could be said...I'm off my soapbox now...


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## Anton Bruckner (Apr 22, 2008)

SRoper said:


> Historically, chiropractic is a rival system to medicine. It rejects the germ theory of disease and is quite frankly quackery.


Scott the above is classic. Can I borrow it for my facebook profile


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## Zenas (Apr 22, 2008)

They are a temporary fix to a permanent problem, from what I understand.

A chriopractitioner can "correct" problems, but they'll only come back because they are due to poor posture/muscle strength. A physical therapist will fix you in the long run, as long as you do the exercises. 

Sure, they can make you feel better for a little while, but it's just a finger in the hole of the levy.

P.S. I think 90% of psychology is a joke. I think the degree is a joke. They literally make up disorders. Honestly, ADD is code-name for "the parents to discipline the child so we need to drug them". What a crock.

I realize there are chemical imbalances that occur and that these are verifiable medical disorders. However, these behavioral disorders that they come up with are just asinine.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 22, 2008)

Speaking of chiropractors, has anyone seen that Simpsons episode where Homer gets a bent up trash can and pushes people backward over it and cracks their backs until some chiropractic "thugs" come and bend his trash can out of shape so he can't practice chriropractic medicine anymore?


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## Scot (Apr 22, 2008)

I just wanted to say that whoever reads the quackwatch site should try to do some research on the man who runs it. He is not an honest man and he writes many half or non-truths. I've commented on him before in different threads. If anyone would like more info. PM me.


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## Mushroom (Apr 23, 2008)

Scot said:


> I just wanted to say that whoever reads the quackwatch site should try to do some research on the man who runs it. He is not an honest man and he writes many half or non-truths. I've commented on him before in different threads. If anyone would like more info. PM me.



Dude... you're not like a... _chiropractor_ are you?


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## SRoper (Apr 23, 2008)

Anton Bruckner said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> > Historically, chiropractic is a rival system to medicine. It rejects the germ theory of disease and is quite frankly quackery.
> ...



Um, sure.



Semper Fidelis said:


> Speaking of chiropractors, has anyone seen that Simpsons episode where Homer gets a bent up trash can and pushes people backward over it and cracks their backs until some chiropractic "thugs" come and bend his trash can out of shape so he can't practice chriropractic medicine anymore?



I saw that one. I love it when Moe says something like, "Face it Homer, this is chiro town."


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