# Why do animals die?



## ForHisGlory

If man's penalty for sin and rebellion to God is death......then why do animals die? Do they have a sin nature as well? 

I just watched "Earth" and "March of the Penguins" and both showcase the harsh realities of survival......and it got me thinking. 

Does Scripture discuss this?


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## Zenas

My understanding is that when Adam sinned, the entire world fell under the curse. 

More to the point though, you asked "Why do animals die?" My answer: Because I'm hungry.


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## au5t1n

Check out Rom. 8:19-23.


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## Michael Doyle

If you look at the post title...followed by your user name, it almost answers itself. Why do animals die? For His glory.  Just an observation


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## ForHisGlory

Is it possible that the serpent represented all other "living creatures," whereby sin entered for them?

"The Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you ABOVE all livestock and ABOVE all beasts of the field;" Genesis 3:14a (emphasis added)

It seems that there was a more specific penalty for the serpent, but that in general the serpent represented all livestock and all beasts of the field.

Or does Scripture still point to Adam's sin when regarding animals?

Side note: Before the fall there was no death. That makes for a lot of vegetarians. I wonder if there is enough seaweed and algae to feed all the fish of the sea?


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## Contra_Mundum

Rom.8 was already referenced. But I will post the verses for ease of reading:19 For the earnest expectation of *the creation *eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For *the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly*, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the *creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption *into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that *the whole creation groans *and labors with birth pangs together until now.​God cursed Man for his sin.

He cursed the creation because of man, both the ground (and that which springs from it) and the living creatures. Adam's sin, being the King of creation, inflicted death upon the rest of creation--which it would have preferred not to endure ("not willingly" was it subjected to futilty, and nothing expresses futility like death as Ecclesiastes readily shows).


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## SRoper

Animals don't eat from the Tree of Life.


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## Frank Brito.

I believe there is no such thing as inherent mortality in any creature. All creatures are finite.

God alone is inherently immortal. Eternal Life was a gift to mankind that man would achieve if he remained obedient. Sin is apostasy from God and reveals what he is apart from God: finite dust.

Animals, however, never received this gift.


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## Osage Bluestem

Do you think that God will allow animals to live again or are they just dead forever? I haven't seen anything in the bible that is definitive on this.


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## Mushroom

Haven't you ever heard of 'doggie heaven'?


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## au5t1n

Brad said:


> Haven't you ever heard of 'doggie heaven'?



Ah yes, and to save space in the netherworld, it doubles as 'cat hell'.


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## Frank Brito.

DD2009 said:


> Do you think that God will allow animals to live again or are they just dead forever? I haven't seen anything in the bible that is definitive on this.



I believe Romans 8 answers gives a hint...

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God".


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## PastorTim

Did Adam and Eve eat animals?


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## Christusregnat

ForHisGlory said:


> If man's penalty for sin and rebellion to God is death......then why do animals die? Do they have a sin nature as well?
> 
> I just watched "Earth" and "March of the Penguins" and both showcase the harsh realities of survival......and it got me thinking.
> 
> Does Scripture discuss this?



For dinner.


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## Semper Fidelis

austinww said:


> Check out Rom. 8:19-23.



Bingo.


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## Solus Christus

Frank Brito. said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that God will allow animals to live again or are they just dead forever? I haven't seen anything in the bible that is definitive on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Romans 8 answers gives a hint...
> 
> "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God".
Click to expand...


I also imagine the New Heavens and the New Earth would be amiss if God removed animals who were part of the original creation.


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## tlharvey7

there are horses in heaven


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## Peairtach

Adam was the mediatorial Prophet, Priest and King over all creation, with his beautiful wife beside him, helping him.

God could have cast Adam into Hell when he sinned, but in His mercy and grace He permitted Him to live. It was appropriate that the whole creation which Adam ruled over as king, brought God's Word to bear on as prophet, and represented unto God as priest, and which was made for Man, should be spoiled because of Man's sin - even to remind Man of what he has done, and what he now was.

I believe the death of animals followed both logically, and, as far as I'm aware, chronologically.

The suffering of animals is short and sweet. As far as I'm aware there is no afterlife for them - though I believe R.C. Sproul disagrees. 

It is a mystery, in strict justice, why sinless, non-moral, sentient creatures should suffer because of Man's sin. It another reminder of the awfulness of sin; the "innocent" often suffer because of the sins of the guilty.

God is judge of all and will always do what is right. The God that cursed the whole of Creation, including sentient creation, also said that the righteous man is concerned about the life of his beast, and inscripturated passages of Scripture that speak about His interest and care for all His creatures.

As with any subject all of the Scriptural data must be pondered.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 07:04:24 EST-----



Solus Christus said:


> Frank Brito. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that God will allow animals to live again or are they just dead forever? I haven't seen anything in the bible that is definitive on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Romans 8 answers gives a hint...
> 
> "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I also imagine the New Heavens and the New Earth would be amiss if God removed animals who were part of the original creation.
Click to expand...


This is a good point. And many Reformed scholars believe, as far as I'm aware correctly, that the New Heavens and the New Earth, will be a renovated and renewed Old Heavens and Old Earth, just as the matter of our Old Bodies will be turned into New Bodies. 

And when we think of the New Heavens and New Earth, we sometimes forget that animals and plants were a part of this Old Earth.

When I say that the Earth will be renovated and renewed, the Bible teaches that it will be made incorruptible, that is incapable of corruption, and that our bodies will be glorified, that is appropriate for reflecting God's glory in a new way. 

The pattern of renovation is

(a) The souls of believers at regeneration and then at perfection and glorification at death.

(b) The bodies of believers at the Resurrection

(c) The Earth and Cosmos after the Resurrection and Last judgment.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 07:22:52 EST-----

*Quote from For His Glory*


> Side note: Before the fall there was no death. That makes for a lot of vegetarians. I wonder if there is enough seaweed and algae to feed all the fish of the sea?



If there was no sentient death before the Fall - or no sentient and plant death - we do not know what provision God was going to make for the fish, etc.

It was always God's plan that Man would Fall of his own accord and the period before the Fall may have been relatively short.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 07:41:09 EST-----



Frank Brito. said:


> I believe there is no such thing as inherent mortality in any creature. All creatures are finite.
> 
> God alone is inherently immortal. Eternal Life was a gift to mankind that man would achieve if he remained obedient. Sin is apostasy from God and reveals what he is apart from God: finite dust.
> 
> Animals, however, never received this gift.



I believe all men were created with immortal souls and made in God's image.

Animals were not made with immortal souls (?), but souls that die with them, and were not made in God's image - see Ecclesiastes.

The idea of death in Scripture involves separation rather than annihilation.

When Man sinned all sorts of separation entered:-

(a) Spiritual death - separation of God from Man and vice versa, leading to eternal death, eternal separation from God's favour.

(b) Physical death - separation of soul from body.

(c) Separation of Adam from Eve and man from man, leading to violence, murder and war.

(d) Separation of Man from himself. The faculties of the soul and the conscience at war, leading to unhappiness, psychological problems and sometimes suicide.

(e) Separation of the creation from Man, leading to disease, physical death, and ecological troubles.

I don't know if it was Francis Schaeffer who first pointed all these things out from Genesis 3 ?


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## Peairtach

Darwin taught that animal and plant life (and all life) existed for the purpose of survival and reproduction. 

Each individual in a species was in competition with the others in order to survive. 

Later "sociobiologists" have taught a wider form of competition called "collective fitness" in which animals are willing to be altruistic towards their relatives so that more of their own genes will survive overall. 

Dawkins ("The Selfish Gene")locates the will to survive in the genes themselves - though how genes got this, presumably unconscious drive to survive - is not satisfactorily explained. 

David Stove kicks lumps out of these ideas in "Darwinian Fairytales"

Presumably we as Christians believe that the ultimate purpose of animals and plants is to glorify God, and that the ability to survive, adapt and propagate genes is only a secondary one given to creatures by God so that they can continue to glorify Him, along with the need to entertain and fascinate Man, and fulfill Man's purposes, etc.

Presumably the purpose of survival, adaptation and propagation - still in subordination to the glory of God - became more prominent after the Fall and the Curse.

After the Fall and Curse, presumably one of the purposes of some animals and plants, became to cause Man trouble, pain and anguish, all to God's ultimate glory.

The above post should really be in the "Monkeys have Morals" thread, in the "Apologetical Methods" section. I'll copy it to there:-

http://www.puritanboard.com/f49/monkeys-have-morals-55883/#post726145


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## David Heesen

Jack Van Impe teaches that we'll see our pets in heaven. For what it's worth. (He also teaches a bunch of weird stuff.)


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## Peairtach

_Jack Van Impe teaches that we'll see our pets in heaven. For what it's worth. (He also teaches a bunch of weird stuff.) _

As long as we see Christ in His glory.

Seeing your resurrected gold fish in Heaven shouldn't be a major priority for the serious Calvinist. It would be a _very_ small bonus.


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