# Perseverance, pentecostals and speaking in tongues



## KaphLamedh (May 16, 2011)

Weird title needed to explain. Some weeks ago I was talking about life of Christian men on one meeting for men. I remind that I live in the country where's not reformed churches or many calvinists. In the meeting, there were men from pentecostal and free church (which is charismatic.). Suddenly one man said that there is heresy that "once saved is always saved". One man said that in the Bible is said that Christian can lose his salvation, but didn't said where in the Bible.
I started to think that why do so many think that salvation or our perseverance is in our own hands. Christians can fall to commit sin, but does that automaticly mean that he right away lose his salvation?
Why do pentecostals and charismatics think that once truly saved born again Christian lose his salvation? I think that one main thing is this speaking in tongues. Why? They think that when a man speaks in tongues, he is saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, and there are many men and women that were speaking in tongues and few years after they were give up their faith.
I personally believe that speaking in tongues was only for apostles like Peter and Paul and this pentecostal movement's speaking in tongues or personal prayer language is not Biblical and in many (or in every) cases it is just gibberish.

Does anyone has similar experiences? Before I was introduced to reformed theology and calvinism, I was member of charismatic Free Church, but never spoke in tongues, but I did believe that I should. Thank God for calvinistic brothers and sermons by Alan Cairns and John MacArthur f.ex that opened my understanding on that question that bothered me for years.


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## Herald (May 16, 2011)

Pentecostal and Charismatic theology is based on a mistaken view of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. However, there is not complete agreement in that.camp on eschatology. The majority of Pentecostals/Charismatics hold to an Arminian/semi-Pelagian view of eschatology. Since they consider the sign gifts to be present today some attach speaking in tongues with salvation. To be fair not all hold to this view, although the minority who do are quite vocal. To let you know just how fractured the Charismatic/ Pentecostal movement is, there are even Calvinists among their number here in the States.under the Sovereign Grace denomination of churches. All this goes to prove that there are no consistency in the movement. 

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.


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## Andres (May 16, 2011)

KaphLamedh said:


> Why do pentecostals and charismatics think that once truly saved born again Christian lose his salvation?



I believe this has less to do with the gifts of the Spirit or tongues, than it does with the fact that the majority of Pentecostals/Charismatics are staunch Arminians. Arminians believe that man is the deciding factor in salvation. With this understanding, if one makes the decision and does the work to be saved themself, then the flip-side is they can fall away from the faith as well. Contrast this with the biblical reformed view that teaches that it is God who saves us, in spite of our selves. Because God is the one doing the saving, then He is the one who will also keep us. 

As for the experience of tongues, before God so graciously opened my eyes to the truths of reformed theology I was a hard-core Pentecostal. I spoke in tongues on a regular basis. Looking back now, it was just gibberish I was working up within myself. I could turn tongues on or off at the drop of a hat because I was the one who was doing it. I have since repented of this silliness and I know God has been faithful to forgive me. My heart truly goes out to those still wrapped up in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement as there are some strong deceptions at work there.


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## kvanlaan (May 16, 2011)

Does Acts 2 not set the boundaries for speaking in tongues? That is, Acts 2 describes in some detail the speaking in tongues and they were actual known languages, not gibberish. So if a Finnish man speaks 'in tongues' in Swahili, I will think I'm seeing a work of the Spirit. But if he does this:

YouTube - Tongues

...then it is the work of 'other' spirits.

(I know there are many other instances of speaking in tongues or implications to that direction in Scripture, but I've always thought that Acts 2 set the bar for what actualy means. Am I wrong on this?)


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## Andres (May 16, 2011)

Kevin, I believe you are correct. Acts 2:5-11 says, 


> Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."



This passage specifies that the tongues heard that day were known languages. Basically, it was a miracle that all these people suddenly were able to speak in various languages that were unknown to them previously. Now with that being said, in all my years of Pentecostalism, I have yet to ever hear someone speak in tongues that wasn't just jibberish. I had a Pentecostal pastor actually attempt to use the explanation, "well we don't know all the languages everywhere in the world. Perhaps it's (the gibberish) a real language of some remote jungle tribe somewhere". Even when I was Pentecostal, I saw through that one. LAME.


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## J. Dean (May 16, 2011)

Andres said:


> KaphLamedh said:
> 
> 
> > Why do pentecostals and charismatics think that once truly saved born again Christian lose his salvation?
> ...


+10 

Dude, if I'm ever in Texas, I'll have to look you up!

When I was in the Pentecostal church, the whole tongue thing was bugging me. I did it, but at the same time I realized that it was forced and didn't feel like "The Spirit" at all. My confirmation of this internal check against the tongue thing came in the form of I Corinthians 14, where Paul explicitly states that anyone speaking in tongues was to keep silent unless there was an interpreter. Funny enough: in all my time in pentecostal churches when "glossolalia" broke out, I don't EVER remember any interpreting going on, save for perhaps once, maybe twice, and both of those times were interpretations of very vague and "feel good" messages.

I've brought up the I Corinthians 14 passage up to other pentecostals, and the response I've had was "Well, there are two different forms of speaking in tongues in Scripture." When I ask for evidence, there isn't any, other than twisting passages by implying things that aren't in the text. I don't view pentecostals as heretics, but they're seriously messed up on this and other points, to the point where I'm not always comfortable in a pentecostal service.

The other thing of note is that in Acts 2, the "tongues" spoken are actual languages of other nations, not the gibberish of glossolalia.


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## Pilgrim (May 16, 2011)

To further add to the diversity, there are various Oneness Pentecostal groups (United Pentecostals (UPC,) "Jesus Name", Apostolic, etc.) who are modalists who teach that Trinitarianism is heresy. They are an outright cult that teaches that you have to be baptized in Jesus' Name (not the Trinitarian formula, which they consider to be heretical and invalid) and speak in tongues to be saved. They are also very legalistic when it comes to dress (although some of them have relaxed in this area)--women must wear skirts or dresses, mustn't cut their hair, etc. or they will be considered backslidden at best. 

In many areas this group is practically unheard of. In most areas the term Pentecostal is understood to refer to Trinitarian groups like the Assembly of God and the various Church of God denominations. But the UPC and related groups are the predominant group of Pentecostals in some parts of the USA. This includes parts of Central and North Louisiana, where I grew up. In some areas there when driving around the countryside I've often thought that there appear to be more of these kinds of "churches" than Baptist churches.


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## cajunhillbilly53 (May 31, 2011)

I believe God can give the gift of tounges if He sosverignly cooses to do so, but in most instances it is something the person works up themselves, either consciously or subconsciously.


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## Rufus (May 31, 2011)

> To let you know just how fractured the Charismatic/ Pentecostal movement is, there are even Calvinists among their number here in the States.under the Sovereign Grace denomination of churches. All this goes to prove that there are no consistency in the movement.


I don't think they want or need to have a consistent movement, its really whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in usage, so you can be from any background (Calvinist, Lutheran, Free-Will Baptist, or Roman Catholic) and still hold to that position. Even within churches that are charismatic(ish) there is a scale of how far they view those things and use them. The pastor of the church I currently attend (who is a "charistmatic" of sorts) has said that charismatic types often idolizethe Holy Spirit (over the Father and Son) and often fall into the trap of Gnosticism, but he was raised Southern Baptist, and surprising he is against Gnostic like ideas even though he was a hippie.



> Suddenly one man said that there is heresy that "once saved is always saved".


Did anyone argue against this?


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## J. Williams (Jun 1, 2011)

There are many factors which must be noted regarding Pentecostalism. Apart from being very inconsistent in their theology, they form many beliefs from personal experience and do not emphasise contextualisation. When a Pentecostal "experiences" someone who "went out from us" as John describes in 1 John 2:19, where we (Reformed) correctly note that this evidenced that they never believed, the Pentecostal would empirically see this is a loss of the person's salvation: experiences dictating theology (keep in mind they lack a correct understanding of sanctification also). 
As they view believing/stopping believing/disbelieving as their own free will actions, they must believe a loss of salvation is possible. I would contend that Pentecostal soteriology is actually closer to Pelagianism than Arminianism. If I had to pin-point why they believe they can lose their salvation, I wouldn’t immediately go to the “licence to sin” argument that Paul addresses , instead ‘a loss of salvation’ is how they explain people who they are sure (empirically again) were Christians previously, now abiding in a godless life of sin; that they were never a Christian to begin with often never enters the Pentecostals mind. Many do not understand that perseverance is also the work of God (Phil 1:6); these fundamental errors carry over to their views on sanctification and therefore they reject “once saved also saved”.


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## MississippiBaptist (Jun 2, 2011)

I know a guy at the gym who wants me to 'receive the second blessing'. We talk theology all of the time and you guys have described his theology very well. Arminian, no assurance of salvation, seeks experience, places great emphasis on saying the right words( in order to receive the desired blessing from God). I don't think this is hijacking the tread but what do you guys think about John MacArthur's definition of tongues? The Truth About Tongues.

Were all tongues in the NT language miracles where the speaker spoke in a known language? And all 'unknown tongues' (as rendered in the KJV- the singular tongue) are pagan gibberish?

I can't call myself a cessationist, yet. I am convinced that the contemporary gift of tongues looks nothing like the NT.


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## Reformation Monk (Jun 2, 2011)

I've known many different types of Charismatic's and they all share one thing in common; which is the same problem all share when one doesn't understand the true Gospel. We are saved by faith apart from "any" works. 

You find Charismatic's all Christian circles; Orthodox, Catholicism and of course Protestantism. Their error derives from the most basic problem of the sinful nature, which is to want to rely own self-righteousness rather then on Christ's righteousness. For the majority, the focus in on justification rather then sanctification. 

But, there are pentecostals who do understand that Salvation and Justification is by faith alone and their focus is on the exorcising of the spiritual gifts in the area of one's sanctification. 

The reason I say this is that I don't discount the supernatural working of the the Holy Spirit. It was true in the Apostolic age and it is true now. But it isn't a common occurrence within the established Church and rather happens mostly in the mission field. 

But it is for the establishing and furtherance of the Gospel and the Church. Or in other words, it isn't a justifying work and it isn't a necessary sign of true belief and saving faith. 

But it can be a sanctifying reality of someone who truly is "in the spirit." 

I believe that there are level's of devotion. As one draws nearer to God; as one becomes more consistent in daily worship and prayer, I believe one draws nearer to the Spirit. But this is again; a sanctifying process and work, not a justifying one. A true believer is already saved and is sanctified ( set apart ) and is also in the process of being further sanctified ( further being set apart ) whereby they are becoming more and more like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ day by day. 

But does this mean that I believe in "perfectionism" like the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Mystics do? No I don't. I still maintain that while we are in our earthly tabernacle that we will always be under the curse and struggle with our old nature. This again, is an erroneous endeavor to rely own self-righteousness rather then Christ righteousness. While, we need to take our sanctification seriously and out of our Love for Christ and our neighbor try to mortify the flesh ( put away all sin ) as much as we can, we can never reach "perfection" while in our earthly state. 

Does that mean that every called believer can reach this type of spiritual state? I don't think so. The Spirit moves differently in different persons, different places and different times. Our focus shouldn't be on relying on our effort to obtain a level of spirituality that we may never experience, because of the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, but rather, out of our love and obedience; remain in daily prayer, worship and being washed by the Word and just simply resting in Christ. We all have different talents and callings. 

Anyway... just some thoughts. The only reason I say all of this is because I've seen Christians being hurt by these types of Christian communities when their faith is questioned because they don't "exorcise" the same spiritual gifts as others seemingly do. 

There is also usually a strong self centered focus in these types of communities. In other words, having faith is more about "blessings" then it is about being a faithful and obedient disciple. I also believe that it is erroneous to make people believe that being a Christian is about receiving earthly rewards. While God certainly does work in our earthly lives; it is very obviously biblical to expect persecution and trials as a true disciple of Christ, not health, wealth and physical peace and contentment.


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## Scott1 (Jun 2, 2011)

Two major errors in charismatic/pentecostal doctrine and practice:

1) I Cor. 12 spiritual gifts are an ordinary means of special revelation, and a focus of corporate worship
2) The Holy Spirit (somehow) does not come in full at the time of salvation

In addition, Arminian influence, dispensationalism, no confession, low view of the church, low view of the sacraments.

While there are some believers in those communions, there is much error, and a reason there is much disorder in their communions.

From Arminianism, man initiating his salvation has a logical corollary of losing it by choice or behavior (not biblical, but that's where it can lead). Add to that perfectionism and a works based righteousness- lots of error to compound.


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