# Do black holes really exist?



## BertMulder (Feb 8, 2007)

Have a question, not sure of the answer in my own mind. Is the theory of black holes consistent with creation, especially since Stephen Hawkin is quite involved with this theory. Any scientists here that can enlighten me on this?


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## RamistThomist (Feb 8, 2007)

Has anyone seen Farscape? What about "worm holes?"


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## VictorBravo (Feb 8, 2007)

BertMulder said:


> Have a question, not sure of the answer in my own mind. Is the theory of black holes consistent with creation, especially since Stephen Hawkin is quite involved with this theory. Any scientists here that can enlighten me on this?



I don't see any reason why they would be inconsistent with creation. If God wanted to make something so massive that we couldn't see it, He certainly could. There seems to be evidence that they exist.

Steven Hawkings describes the center of one as being a singularity in which resides the end of time. Of course, his reason is related to relativity, with the huge mass contorting space-time around it to nothing. 

Even so, I find it interesting that he calls it the "end of time". Perhaps the black holes are what Job was talking about in 38:22-23, the treasure of hail reserved against the time of trouble.

Or maybe they are just there, like the amazing multitude of stars, for God's own glory.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 8, 2007)

Those stars that we describe as blackholes are the most extreme and unusual objects/events in all of creation. If they are not blackholes, as the scientists have described them, then they are something as equally exotic as a blackhole. 
Whatever they are they consume extraodinary amounts of matter and release gargantuan blasts of x-ray emissions.

They make sense in the life of a star. A star begins as a hot blue fusion. As they convert all of their hydrogen into helium they begin to cool and change from blue to yellow, orange and red. An orange star is middle age. Our sun is a middle aged orange star. As the star burns up all it's hydrogen the shell begins to collapse. If the speed/gravity of collapse surpasses the resistance of the gas then it collapses into a neutron star (the atomic shells have collapsed and only neutrons are left) - a very dense star. If this collapses further then it becomes a black hole. A star so dense and a gravity so powerful that even light cannot escape it. 

Not all stars can become blackholes, only the very large ones.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 8, 2007)

Not meaning to be picky, but I don't see how this topic relates to worship. Other than the fact that God is the creator of all things.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 8, 2007)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Not meaning to be picky, but I don't see how this topic relates to worship. Other than the fact that God is the creator of all things.



Probably not much for worshipping, per se, but I have long been thinking about (post) modern (I mean that in the temporal sense) cosmology and the New Creation. But that's for another day....


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 8, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Probably not much for worshipping, per se, but I have long been thinking about (post) modern (I mean that in the temporal sense) cosmology and the New Creation. But that's for another day....


 That sounds like a very interesting topic Jacob. I look forward to your post on it.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 8, 2007)

joshua said:


> Moved to _Natural Revelation and God's Creation_ forum.




Wow! Great service on this board. Mention a glitch and the Mods are all over it.


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## ANT (Feb 9, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Has anyone seen Farscape? What about "worm holes?"



I went through a Farscape phase a couple years ago ... Man that was a cool show!


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 9, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> They make sense in the life of a star. A star begins as a hot blue fusion. As they convert all of their hydrogen into helium they begin to cool and change from blue to yellow, orange and red. An orange star is middle age. Our sun is a middle aged orange star. As the star burns up all it's hydrogen the shell begins to collapse. If the speed/gravity of collapse surpasses the resistance of the gas then it collapses into a neutron star (the atomic shells have collapsed and only neutrons are left) - a very dense star. If this collapses further then it becomes a black hole. A star so dense and a gravity so powerful that even light cannot escape it.



Bob, not to be picky, but I think the life of a star theory is entirely speculative. Has any scientist ever empirally verified that's what the life of a star looks like. They've just peaced it together from an evolutionary worldview. I think it's probably more complicated than that in reality. We haven't even been to other stars to see what they are like.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm not a big-banger nor do I subscribe to any sort of evolutionary worldview - I'm even a young earther. What we observe regarding specific stars is consistent with what we know about the physics of light, color, thermodynamics and gravity. We find stars at every point in this life-span continuum. It's not like evolution where transitional species are missing.

I not saying that the universe is billions of years old just because a star appears to be. I believe the Lord created a mature universe and the ages of the stars is built into the appearance of them. Why would God do this? Perhaps to further demostrate that even the stars, which we first perceived as unchanging, are actually very dynamic. They are born, they live, they age, they die but the Creator does not change. His power encompasses even the giant suns, his presence reaches further than the most distant galaxies, he creates the quasar and is aware of the sparrow. 

Job 9:7 who commands the sun, and it does not rise;
who seals up the stars;
8 who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;
9 who made the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the chambers of the south;
10 who does great things beyond searching out,
and marvelous things beyond number.

Psalm 8:3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?

Psalm 147:4 He determines the number of the stars;
he gives to all of them their names.
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 19:19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.


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## BertMulder (Feb 9, 2007)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Not meaning to be picky, but I don't see how this topic relates to worship. Other than the fact that God is the creator of all things.




Tried to post it in the natural revelation section, but this is where it ended up somehow. 

Thank you all for you enlightening on this topic.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 9, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> I'm not a big-banger nor do I subscribe to any sort of evolutionary worldview - I'm even a young earther. What we observe regarding specific stars is consistent with what we know about the physics of light, color, thermodynamics and gravity. We find stars at every point in this life-span continuum. It's not like evolution where transitional species are missing.
> 
> I not saying that the universe is billions of years old just because a star appears to be. I believe the Lord created a mature universe and the ages of the stars is built into the appearance of them. Why would God do this? Perhaps to further demostrate that even the stars, which we first perceived as unchanging, are actually very dynamic. They are born, they live, they age, they die but the Creator does not change. His power encompasses even the giant suns, his presence reaches further than the most distant galaxies, he creates the quasar and is aware of the sparrow.



I'm not calling you a big-banger or anything like that. I just wanted to point out the fact that that no one has ever seen the full life of a star. The "appearance of age" idea is couched in the idea of evolution. Who decides what that age looks like? If it is not billions of years old, then it doesn't really appear that old at all. They were created the 4th day as they were, in their own special way, like all the other creatures. That means (me also being a young earther) that all the stars are only a few thousand years old. If they look "older" then its a problem with the presuppositions of the viewer. Sorry, just a presuppositional hobby horse......


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## Cheshire Cat (Feb 11, 2007)

I don’t see how presuppositions would change the *appearance* of stars. Just because nobody has lived through the full life of a star does not mean that one cannot develop a theory about the life-span of stars. Basically our ideas of the lifespan of stars comes from what we have observed about our own sun. The Sun produces energy by fusion. Fusion takes a *long* time relatively speaking. So if we are observing nova and supernova it would seem that the age of the universe is old. Notice I said seem, so it does appear that way no matter what one’s presuppositions are.


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## Answerman (Feb 12, 2007)

If you interested in this subject, go to this website and watch the video called Light Speed And Other Puzzling Data That May Support A Recent Creation. The lecturer, Barry Setterfield, discusses red-shift and dark matter.

http://www.nwcreation.net


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