# "Worm theology" vs "grace theology"



## cris (Jul 19, 2010)

Hello, my friends

I heard recently from a guy (who is very much into leadership, communication, mentorship, etc) about "worm theology". As opposed to "grace theology". Actually he was quoting John Maxwell (!!).
Is this characteristic to the churches that don't preach about sin?
This is a derogatory term, isn't it?
Wasn't this term coined by those who don't want to preach/listen to sin and self-denial?
This is my impression, but I'm not sure.

Thanks a lot for any comments.

Cristian


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## Christusregnat (Jul 19, 2010)

Without knowing what he means by the term, I couldn't comment.

You are right, however, that people who believe in human goodness often characterize total depravity in this way.

Cheers,


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## LawrenceU (Jul 19, 2010)

Maxwell is throughly Arminian which should come as no surprise as he was a Wesleyan pastor. I have heard him comment on this aspect before. I don't think he is all that keen on the stanza of 'Alas and Did My Saviour Bleed' that say, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?' Frankly, neither do many hymnal publishers. Many hymnals now render the stanza, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a one as I?'


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## CharlieJ (Jul 19, 2010)

*Depends on "worm"*

It really depends on how you mean "worm." I think in an analogical sense, it can be fine, in that we are to God as far as (really infinitely farther than) a worm is to us. However, it's dangerous to press the analogy. Man is good insofar as he is God's creature. He is bad insofar as he is a sinner. Humanity still possesses a unique dignity over creation. So, we do need to be careful to present total depravity in a way that affirms the goodness of creation, lest we fall to Manichaeism.


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## jjraby (Jul 19, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> Maxwell is throughly Arminian which should come as no surprise as he was a Wesleyan pastor. I have heard him comment on this aspect before. I don't think he is all that keen on the stanza of 'Alas and Did My Saviour Bleed' that say, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?' Frankly, neither do many hymnal publishers. Many hymnals now render the stanza, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a one as I?'


 

RUF music has that line, "for a sinner such as I."


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## LawrenceU (Jul 19, 2010)

jjraby said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > Maxwell is throughly Arminian which should come as no surprise as he was a Wesleyan pastor. I have heard him comment on this aspect before. I don't think he is all that keen on the stanza of 'Alas and Did My Saviour Bleed' that say, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?' Frankly, neither do many hymnal publishers. Many hymnals now render the stanza, 'Would he devote that sacred head for such a one as I?'
> ...


 
Yes, they also have a version that reads, 'for such a fool as I.'


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## Philip (Jul 19, 2010)

Personally, I don't see an opposition: I can only know how great a grace I have in Christ if I recognize how deep my sin is and how great a sinner I am.


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## Iconoclast (Jul 19, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> It really depends on how you mean "worm." I think in an analogical sense, it can be fine, in that we are to God as far as (really infinitely farther than) a worm is to us. However, it's dangerous to press the analogy. Man is good insofar as he is God's creature. He is bad insofar as he is a sinner. Humanity still possesses a unique dignity over creation. So, we do need to be careful to present total depravity in a way that affirms the goodness of creation, lest we fall to Manichaeism.


 
It was used here in Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 

2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 

3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 

4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 

5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 

6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.


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## CharlieJ (Jul 20, 2010)

But in Ps. 22, the psalmist is not speaking of his sinfulness, but of his inhuman treatment by others.


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## Gesetveemet (Jul 20, 2010)

All of God's people feel themselves to be worms in the beginning and in continuance.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 20, 2010)

Honestly, the longer I am a Christian the more wormlike I see myself. That depth of depravity that is within my heart is amazing. I don't know how anyone who diligently pursues his relationship with the Lord cannot have that happen. It makes be appreciate the incredible grace that he has even more than before.


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## Iconoclast (Jul 20, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> But in Ps. 22, the psalmist is not speaking of his sinfulness, but of his inhuman treatment by others.



Yes exactly. Jesus had no sin but as our mediator taking the penalty of our sin,he suffered and as part of His humiliation, and bearing in His body the penalty he endured the cross. Phil2:4-7 Heb12:1-2


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## Staphlobob (Jul 21, 2010)

Worm = present tense? Doubtless the more we grow in sanctification the greater our awareness of our corruption and sinfulness; our worm likeness.

But what is it that we used to be (and the natural man still is)? Enemies of God (Genesis 3:15; Romans 8:7) When speaking of Christ's love for us, many speak of being a worm for which He died. However I think the Scriptures are much more radical than that. 

Think of someone who is your enemy; someone who hates you with a burning passion and would kill you at the drop of a hat; think of someone who hates you so much that he would kill your family and loved ones just to make you hurt. Would you die for such a man? Christ die. That's the kind of love He has for us.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 21, 2010)

jjraby said:


> lawrenceu said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell is throughly arminian which should come as no surprise as he was a wesleyan pastor. I have heard him comment on this aspect before. I don't think he is all that keen on the stanza of 'alas and did my saviour bleed' that say, 'would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as i?' frankly, neither do many hymnal publishers. Many hymnals now render the stanza, 'would he devote that sacred head for such a one as i?'
> ...



terrible!


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