# Evangelizing Scotland



## KMK (Sep 24, 2007)

I know someone who claims to be going on a 'missions' trip to Scotland with an AOG church. 

C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?


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## Ivan (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> I know someone who claims to be going on a 'missions' trip to Scotland with an AOG church.
> 
> C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?



I think *America* needs American evangelists.


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## Pergamum (Sep 25, 2007)

Its a real shame that the AOG has to do it. 

Is there a lack of reformed workers willing to go take on this task?


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## JohnOwen007 (Sep 25, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> Its a real shame that the AOG has to do it.
> 
> Is there a lack of reformed workers willing to go take on this task?


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## AV1611 (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?



Come and live here mate and you will see the need for evangelists. We are becoming increasingly Godless. I would be better if these were OPC, PCA, PRC etc


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## ANT (Sep 25, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?
> ...





I lived in England 18 yrs ago for just under 6 months ... My heart was so taken with that beautiful country ... i have done nothing but desire to go back ever since ... I was not a Christian then ... oh, if ever I have the oportunity to do any work over there ... I would glady answer that call!


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## kvanlaan (Sep 25, 2007)

Other 'evangelists' fill many voids. Mongolia is full of Mormons who are making 'great' strides because they are largely operating in a vacuum. 



> I think America needs American evangelists.



Brother, a loud, sad,  from this quarter.


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## KMK (Sep 25, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?
> ...



I am not disagreeing with you, but is it the case in the Isles that there are many people who have never heard the gospel, or is it a case where many have rejected the gospel? What happened? This was the home of Wishart and Gillespie and Knox!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 25, 2007)

> I know someone who claims to be going on a 'missions' trip to Scotland with an AOG church.
> 
> C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?



Believe me the UK _REALLY_ needs evangelized. Things are becoming increasingly secular. The Lord have mercy on us!


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## AV1611 (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> I am not disagreeing with you, but is it the case in the Isles that there are many people who have never heard the gospel, or is it a case where many have rejected the gospel? What happened? This was the home of Wishart and Gillespie and Knox!



In England mostly that many people have never heard the gospel...Christianity is being pushed out of the schools (in primary school's Christmas play the nativity is being replaced by 'neutral' plays), church attendance is declining year on year and most people will only step inside a church at a wedding, funeral and possibly at carols by candlelight....England is in dire straights. This is becoming increasingly common. Northern Ireland and the Scottish Highlands & Islands are least affected.

I met someone who called them self a Christian who did not know what the gospel was, did not know who Christ was, did not believe in hell, believed all people will go to heaven...why was she a Christian? She was baptised as a baby in a Catholic (RCC) church!!!!!!!


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## bradofshaw (Sep 25, 2007)

This does bring up an interesting question though. We are not talking about a country and culture that is ignorant of the Gospel and without access to the Scriptures. The church may be falling apart, but it has been established (indeed been an integral part of the UK's existence) there. 

What do these post-Christian nations need? Do they need workers from America? Is it a matter of there just not being enough workers? Are there enough workers in America for the American church to deal with it's own decline in an increasingly godless society? I can still see the urgency in sending workers from America to places yet less familiar with the Gospel, and thus without hope of salvation. But what should be the view of missions and our strategy for America and Europe? 

Often we view the church as being inherently American, and thus see any other country as fit for our mission workers. Do we see a need for other countries (say South Korea) to send missionaries to America? One could certainly make the case that America needs as many laborers as Europe.


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## Reformed Baptist (Sep 25, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon... Shouldn't it be the other way around? What do you Brits think? Does the British Isles really need American evangelists?
> ...



How about a group of grumpy reformed baptists?


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## AV1611 (Sep 25, 2007)

Reformed Baptist said:


> How about a group of grumpy reformed baptists?



Sure, I will take what we get, we can sort out your baptismal error later


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## KMK (Sep 25, 2007)

bradofshaw said:


> This does bring up an interesting question though. We are not talking about a country and culture that is ignorant of the Gospel and without access to the Scriptures. The church may be falling apart, but it has been established (indeed been an integral part of the UK's existence) there.
> 
> What do these post-Christian nations need? Do they need workers from America? Is it a matter of there just not being enough workers? Are there enough workers in America for the American church to deal with it's own decline in an increasingly godless society? I can still see the urgency in sending workers from America to places yet less familiar with the Gospel, and thus without hope of salvation. But what should be the view of missions and our strategy for America and Europe?
> 
> Often we view the church as being inherently American, and thus see any other country as fit for our mission workers. Do we see a need for other countries (say South Korea) to send missionaries to America? One could certainly make the case that America needs as many laborers as Europe.



I know of several Korean Presbyterian missionaries doing work with Korean imigrants in the US, but that is because of the language barrier. 

I want to believe that what the British Isles and the US need are for churches to just do their job, not 'missionaries'. Perhaps I am wrong. Either way it is sad, sad, sad...


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## bradofshaw (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> I want to believe that what the British Isles and the US need are for churches to just do their job, not 'missionaries'. Perhaps I am wrong. Either way it is sad, sad, sad...



 Those were my first thoughts as well.


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## AV1611 (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> I want to believe that what the British Isles and the US need are for churches to just do their job, not 'missionaries'. Perhaps I am wrong. Either way it is sad, sad, sad...



One of the big problems is a great lack of sound churches. Another problem is a lack of knowledge within the congregations of sound churches for even the basic outreach. I attend what would be called a sound church but I would argue it has a way to go before I label it as such. I was only discussing earlier today with our curate the need for a course to be run on basic hermenutics and a Bible overview.

The Church in England (note not "of") needs our prayers.


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## bradofshaw (Sep 25, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > I want to believe that what the British Isles and the US need are for churches to just do their job, not 'missionaries'. Perhaps I am wrong. Either way it is sad, sad, sad...
> ...



 

As does the Church in America! I am blessed to live in what is somewhat of a stronghold of the Reformed church, but it is not this way in much of America, and even here there is much need of revival and outreach to the lost.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Sep 25, 2007)

The PCA through Mission to the World (MTW) has several mission teams in the UK. The MTW folk in Scotland provide valuable support to the congregations that they work with. In fact the Free Church of Scotland has some kind of partnership/relationship with MTW. So yes, in answer to the OP I do think that the UK needs missionaries, but not just American ones. I know of one church in London that has a mission worker from South Africa to reach South Africans.What they don't need is missionaries starting new churches- work with the existing churches, there are plenty of them.


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## KMK (Sep 25, 2007)

21st Century Calvinist said:


> What they don't need is missionaries starting new churches- work with the existing churches, there are plenty of them.



That is good information.


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## JonathanHunt (Sep 25, 2007)

21st Century Calvinist said:


> The PCA through Mission to the World (MTW) has several mission teams in the UK. The MTW folk in Scotland provide valuable support to the congregations that they work with. In fact the Free Church of Scotland has some kind of partnership/relationship with MTW. So yes, in answer to the OP I do think that the UK needs missionaries, but not just American ones. I know of one church in London that has a mission worker from South Africa to reach South Africans.What they don't need is missionaries starting new churches- work with the existing churches, there are plenty of them.





This is precisely right,. There are very few places in GB where there is not, somewhere, a small, struggling, bible-believing cause, maybe baptist, brethren, independent, or whatever, that needs help. This is infinitely preferable to the strategy of some USA 'missionaries' who are starting up churches in towns where there are already one or two reformed works going.

JH


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## Richard King (Sep 25, 2007)

If these evangelists are tough enough to take on Glasgow. Let 'em have a shot at it.


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## Archlute (Sep 25, 2007)

One also has to understand the perspective of the AofG church, a perspective that I have heard voiced in mega-churches and Calvary Chapels as well, which is that the churches in Europe are all "dead" in as much as they are Lutheran, Reformed, etc. It may be true that the Lutheran and Reformed bodies in Europe have become liberalized and secular (I wouldn't know this firsthand myself), but many evangelical Americans take the position that if you are any stripe of traditional/liturgical/orthodox/etc. in your persuasion then, by definition, you are a dead church.


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## James (Oct 2, 2007)

As far as the need for "missionaries" from America in Scotland and the UK, what of the increasing numbers of muslims moving in as well as other foreigners? I'm not over there but those local churches that are faithful must feel beleaguered under these circumstances. You cannot flip channels past CNN without a story on the muslims in London. Any thoughts?


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## KMK (Oct 2, 2007)

Archlute said:


> One also has to understand the perspective of the AofG church, a perspective that I have heard voiced in mega-churches and Calvary Chapels as well, which is that the churches in Europe are all "dead" in as much as they are Lutheran, Reformed, etc. It may be true that the Lutheran and Reformed bodies in Europe have become liberalized and secular (I wouldn't know this firsthand myself), but many evangelical Americans take the position that if you are any stripe of traditional/liturgical/orthodox/etc. in your persuasion then, by definition, you are a dead church.



I have heard this as well from Calvary folk. They pretty much refer to any church that baptizes infants as 'dead' and 'in bondage'. However, from what I read in the news, that seems to describe the liberalism of the Church of England. But again, I am not there.


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## JonathanHunt (Oct 2, 2007)

James said:


> As far as the need for "missionaries" from America in Scotland and the UK, what of the increasing numbers of muslims moving in as well as other foreigners? I'm not over there but those local churches that are faithful must feel beleaguered under these circumstances. You cannot flip channels past CNN without a story on the muslims in London. Any thoughts?



Good point. My church supports three missionary causes at any one time. One of our supported couples has retired from mission to Muslims in Mali. We are going to carry on supporting the same organisation - Red Sea Mission Team, but this time we will be supporting a couple who are working in the Midlands of England, in inner city areas, with Muslims. In some towns in England, entire areas are solidly muslim. Whole streets/blocks/districts. It is a challenging situation.

JH


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## James (Oct 3, 2007)

I remember our missions pastor showing photographs of old churches in UK or Scotland that have been bought by muslims...so in some situations there may be virtually no local church to revitalize. Also, here is a book "Death or Glory" by Christian Focus that may be a bit of help in the discussion although I haven't read it...

Death Or Glory:
The Church's mission in Scotland's changing society
Category: Church Life > General

Description

The Church in Britain is popularly represented as an anachronism. To many it is.

Egon Bahr, former political advisor to the German Chancellor, Willy Brandt, said "You have to recognise realities in order to change them." These wise words carry a challenge to those wishing to change the spiritual landscape of Scotland and the rest of Britain.

Today 14% of Scots still attend church but 44% of the population say that religion has only ‘a minor part’ to play in Scottish public life, 9% said it played ‘no part at all’ and only 8% feel it played ‘a major part’. To see how this could be changed, a special conference for theologians and church leaders was convened in Edinburgh by the Scottish Evangelical Theological Society and Evangelical Alliance Scotland.

A range of experts examined what could be learnt from history and how the church could be effective against the contemporary cultural backdrop. This book is an edited collection of the contributions made to the conference. Dr Geoffrey Grogan of the Glasgow Bible College was one of the prime movers behind the event – it is to him that this volume is dedicated.

Contributors: David Smith, David Bebbington, Will Storar, Chris Wright, Peter Neilson, Andrew Bogle, John Mackinnon, David Anderson. 

CFP | Death Or Glory: The Church's mission in Scotland's changing society | Various


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Oct 6, 2007)

There is indeed a growing Muslim population throughout the UK that needs to hear the gospel. Praise God that there is some work going on amongst these people groups. I believe that World Harvest Mission may have a work in London, though I don't know exactly what it entails. 
In Glasgow, Scotland the Free Church has outreach work to the Asian community and International students, both headed up by FC pastors.
There is work going on, there needs to be much more.
Without a doubt some of the more charismatic groups speak as though the church in the UK is long dead. That is just not true. To be sure there is major decline within the church, but many evangelical churches are slowly growing. Many church buildings have been turned into nightclubs, restaurants, etc. but there are also new churches being planted, again probably a small number but there areas of growth. Of course, we need to see more and we need more prayer and assistance.
The "Death or Glory" book looks good.


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## JonathanHunt (Oct 6, 2007)

21st Century Calvinist said:


> Without a doubt some of the more charismatic groups speak as though the church in the UK is long dead. That is just not true. .



Yes. The Church in the UK is only MOSTLY dead. When a church is ALL dead there's only one thing you can do. Go through the offering bags and look for loose change.


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## KMK (Oct 6, 2007)

When you guys refer to the 'Church in the UK', are you referring to the 'Church of England', or the 'Church of Scotland'? Aren't there 'state churches' in the UK? Are they dead? We hear a lot about major liberalism in the COE. Is it still a church?


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## JonathanHunt (Oct 6, 2007)

We're talking about the church IN, not the church OF.

The Church of England is not ALL dead. There are decent pockets of bible-believing churches within it and at least one college (Oak Hill) that is solidly biblical.

JH


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## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 31, 2007)

Richard King said:


> If these evangelists are tough enough to take on Glasgow. Let 'em have a shot at it.



 Glasgow is a rough place; I did some outeach work in Rutherglen (famous Covenanter site) which is close to where Celtic play. Glasgow is the sort of place where you think you are going to be mugged by 12 year olds.


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