# Does God discipline his people?



## Miller (Dec 7, 2007)

and if he does how does he do it?


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## Iconoclast (Dec 8, 2007)

Miller said:


> and if he does how does he do it?



The OT. is full of examples of God's discipline, like David for his sexual sin,Samson, the captivity of the people in Babylon, In the Nt.their are clear examples;
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 

or again in 1 cor 11



> 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
> 
> 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
> 
> ...


.

Hebrews 12 also explains



> 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
> 
> 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
> 
> ...



Is this what you mean?


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 8, 2007)

In addition to other acts of providence, and examples like those Anthony provided above, another way God certainly disciplines His own people is through the Church. Since the Church possesses the keys of the kingdom, church discipline would be meaningless if it did not reflect or represent something of God's own discipline.


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 8, 2007)

Yes, of course, He disciplines us. If He didn't discipline us He wouldn't love us as Anthony quotes in Hebrews 12. Incidentally, this verse demonstrates that _real_ love is expressed by a father toward his children in the fact that we discipline and drive folly from their hearts but I digress.

1 Peter 1 reveals:


> 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



God sends trials and suffering into our path that our faith might be built up and purified.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 8, 2007)

God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 8, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.



Yes. Good point and good reminder. Many people cannot distinguish that point. In fact, I believe it is very important that fathers view discipline of their children in the same way. Punishment implies a judicial process where a judge is meting out a penalty to the guilty for their transgression. Discipline is restorative - it matures. It has the good of the recipient in mind. God chastises us for our good - for our building up. The goal of childrearing is the same.


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## Miller (Dec 8, 2007)

Iconoclast, let me ask (because my Dad and I were discussing this) these verses in 1 Corinthians 11 are strictly referring to the Lord's Supper right? Not to everyday life apart from this sacrament?


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 8, 2007)

"Blessed is the man whom God corrects; so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal


Prov 3:11-12 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

"Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature." (2 Pet 1:4)


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.
> ...





Couldn't have put it better myself; the confusion of discipline and punishment does a lot of harm - especially in childrearing. In Northern Ireland, and this is true of most Christians, parents think that giving children "a good hiding" is what they need, rather than loving discipline. While I believe in using the rod, I cringe when I hear this being referred to as "corporal punishment".


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## christiana (Dec 8, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.



How then does this fit with the sons of Korah and also with Ananaias and Sapphira? Also those who 'fell asleep' in 1 Cor for not partaking properly of the Lord's Supper? Another example is the sons of Eli who were killed by God, as was King Saul. 1 Chron 10:13,14

Were those examples discipline or punishment?


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 8, 2007)

christiana said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.
> ...



The end result is not the crux of God's dealings. One must look at His intent and purpose. For instance, Moses was "punished" and not alowed to cross the Jordan for smiting a rock. Yet this "punisment" was not done from a wrathful/judicial hatred towards Moses.


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## christiana (Dec 8, 2007)

I believe scripture shows us that many are removed from this world, even today, for not following God's purpose for them. Some of the examples I cited seem to bear this out, do they not? I guess when one dies this could be for many reasons that God alone knows, including 'punishment' or being removed from the scene for His reasons. It surely appears to be punishment in the case of King Saul.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 8, 2007)

christiana said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > God disciplines and chastens us (as the texts cited above indicate), but He does not punish us.
> ...



in my opinion, with the exception of those who fell asleep in 1 Cor. 11, these were punishments. I


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> God sends trials and suffering into our path that our faith might be built up and purified.



I agree! 

I have a question that is perhaps a bit off topic, but here goes...

I believe with the Divines:



> WCF III:I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass...



I also believe that God makes peace and evil (calamity) (Isa 45:7)

But I hear many Christians (including some on this board) talk about bad things that God 'allows' to happen. If God ordained whatsoever comes to pass, including those things which appear to be calamity, why do people say that God 'allowed' some calamity to befall them? Where is the doctrine of God's 'allowance' found? Is there anything that happens that God did not ultimately bring about by either first or second causes?


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 8, 2007)

Ken,

I think your answer lies under the heading of the difference between primary and secondary causality - between Creation and Providence. I think it's far too difficult, given the Scriptures and our comprehension of the mind and plan of God to be able to define how, precisely, Providence immutably causes all things to fall out according to God's decree.

The issue is not whether God can be said to cause things but the proximity of cause - that is whether or not He is actually creating the event or is using secondary causality to interrupt normal means.

I don't think it is improper to state that He permits things in a sense as He is upholding everything and things unfold according to His Providence and, by not intuerrupting normal means, He is permitting something from a certain angle while, in other instances, He has clearly interupted means and His work is more proximately the cause of something.


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Ken,
> 
> I think your answer lies under the heading of the difference between primary and secondary causality - between Creation and Providence. I think it's far too difficult, given the Scriptures and our comprehension of the mind and plan of God to be able to define how, precisely, Providence immutably causes all things to fall out according to God's decree.
> 
> ...



I would agree as long as it is understood that He is the one who established 'normal means'.

Pro 6:11 says to the sluggard, "So shall thy povert come as one that traveleth, and thy want as an armed man."

So, if I were to quit my jobs and lie around the house all day long, over time I will come to poverty. Then, one day, I wake up in poverty. Do I cry, "Look what God has 'allowe' to happen in my life?" Or do I cry, "Look how God has 'caused' His promise to be fulfilled in my life?" God did not have to interrupt normal means to bring me to poverty, but if I reject the idea that He caused it to happen I am not going to recognize that it was His chastening that brought it about. This is a tendancy that I have noticed: When calamity falls, many Christians, assume that God is allowing it to happen and never look at the possibilty that He is causing it to happen as a form of chastening. They keep crying, like the lying priests in Jeremiah who say, "Peace, peace; when there is no peace."

From a pastoral perspective I find the doctrine of 'allowance' to be dangerous in that it tends to steal glory from God and give it to the false god of 'chance happenings'. It has stumbled people in that it gives them a way to look at their chastisement as something that has nothing to do with them or God.

From a philosophical standpoint I see your point, Rich, but does the Bible speak of God 'allowing' things to happen? I ask the question sincerely. Maybe there are some passages that I haven't thought of.


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 8, 2007)

Obviously I wasn't being un-Confessional and asserting that normal means occur outside His Divine Sovereignty.

It wasn't meant to be philosophical per se. I was trying to describe it in a way that most would understand in terms of the difference between things that we can say that God _proximately_ causes and those that unfold according to the decree.

We understand that God ordained Adam's fall but when Adam reminded God that _He_ created Eve, he didn't have a leg to stand on in reference to blaming God for the sins of the day.


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Obviously I wasn't being un-Confessional and asserting that normal means occur outside His Divine Sovereignty.
> 
> It wasn't meant to be philosophical per se. I was trying to describe it in a way that most would understand in terms of the difference between things that we can say that God _proximately_ causes and those that unfold according to the decree.
> 
> We understand that God ordained Adam's fall but when Adam reminded God that _He_ created Eve, he didn't have a leg to stand on in reference to blaming God for the sins of the day.



Obviously I wan't accusing you, of all people, of being un-confessional.  I wonder if you are giving 'most' Christians a little too much credit, however. The majority of Christians I deal with have no understanding of the nuances between first and second causes, and, on top of that, don't want to even enter into the discussion! As long as people can hold on to the possibility that the calamity they are involved in has nothing to do with God's desires, they can avoid looking at the possibility that they are being chastened.


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## Iconoclast (Dec 8, 2007)

Miller said:


> Iconoclast, let me ask (because my Dad and I were discussing this) these verses in 1 Corinthians 11 are strictly referring to the Lord's Supper right? Not to everyday life apart from this sacrament?



The immeadiate context is the profaning of the Lord's supper,yes. [vs21-22] [27-34]
Paul was addressing this directly in this portion of scripture. 
It would be wise to consider however the other clear warnings throughout this letter. 
1Cor 3/ The problem of carnality was addressed ;



> 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
> 
> 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
> 
> ...


 As Paul deals with this serious problem,look at the stern warning given:



> 16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
> 
> 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


 God was very jealous to protect His body, for His own names sake.

Here in chapter 3 carnality is in the spotlight, at the end of chapter 4 he says he sent Timothy to help make disciples of them,rooting out sin and hypocracy [ as much as is possible]



> 16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
> 
> 17For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
> 
> ...



Again moving into chapter 5 / sexual immorality is addressed with the offender to be put out/



> 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
> 
> 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
> 
> ...



More instruction and remedies are offered in the following chapters. Clearly the Apostle guided by The Spirit of God is calling them to a pursuit of holiness leading to a godly life.
We are to be on guard against taking God's name in vain. Professing to be a christian and not prayerfully seeking God for the strength to obey all lawful commands,and to seperate that which is holy from the profane is grievious sin. If the sin put's other's in the body in danger, God himself will intervene providentially ,or directly if need be;



> 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
> 
> 24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
> 
> ...


 This is a main thread of this letter, and a good part of the second. It makes sense if you think about it. The gentiles lacked much of the OT. root and had much need of instruction.
I have always tried to look at each letter as if it were addressed to me. The warnings and instruction are to keep us from being deceived by sin. We should not see how close we can get to sin, on the contrary we should learn from these passages and adapt them to our current experience.
This response does not even begin to unpack all the implications of these verses. I am just attempting to frame out some ideas that you might find helpful.
Let me just leave off with twoverses from psalm 119 in this regard;



> 67Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word





> 71It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.


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## Miller (Dec 9, 2007)

So how could an individual tell the difference between being disciplined and just having something bad happen to you (like a car wreck)?


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## etexas (Dec 9, 2007)

Ithink there are times when God DOES see see our sorrow and repentance and relents on punishment/discilpine. For this I am thankful! We do not have a cruel father!


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## Iconoclast (Dec 9, 2007)

Miller said:


> So how could an individual tell the difference between being disciplined and just having something bad happen to you (like a car wreck)?



Nothing happens outside the will and purpose of God;

4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin. 
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 ) 

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good. 
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )


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## MW (Dec 10, 2007)

etexas said:


> Ithink there are times when God DOES see see our sorrow and repentance and relents on punishment/discilpine. For this I am thankful! We do not have a cruel father!



Well noted. Ps. 103:13, 14.


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