# Struggles From Credo to Paedo



## sevenzedek (Feb 23, 2012)

I am not trying to start a war here.

I wanted to discuss the struggles associated with the transition in belief from credo-baptism to paedo-baptism convictions.

Even though I consider myself a Reformed Baptist, I hate to say that I am not fully convinced of either side of the issue. Of course, I lean very strongly in favor of the 1689 London Baptist Confession. To tell you the truth, I am almost afraid of diving into the topic too deep because of all the upheaval that would ensue. What if I become convinced that the Presbyterians are correct?

I never thought much about this issue until my wife and I started talking more seriously about having children.

What have some of the struggles been like for those who became convinced and made the leap? Did you change churches? Was there a struggle with a spouse?

I would like the conversation to focus on how the struggles became resolved. Thanks.


----------



## KMK (Feb 23, 2012)

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

As with all things, meditate on God's Word, and the preaching of your Pastor, and the teachings of those more knowledgeable than yourself, and the counsel of your wife...with a great deal of prayer. The HS will provide you a sure foundation. There is no reason to fear.


----------



## MarieP (Feb 23, 2012)

Jon, I will be praying! First, make sure your pastor is involved. Talk to other godly men in your church. If a brother becomes convinced of paedobaptism, then he and his family must do according to their conscience. But all too often, it comes as a surprise to others. Obviously, you don't want to unduly disrupt church unity, but you also don't want to neglect the input and wisdom of others in the local body nor make it more painful by keeping it secret.

PS- I nearly visited your all's church on a trip- I visited another RB church in the area that was further along the route, but I honestly wish I'd gone to yours! Are John and Barbara Wheeler back yet?


----------



## sevenzedek (Feb 23, 2012)

Small world, Marie.


----------



## CharlieJ (Feb 23, 2012)

I used to be Baptist, but am now Presbyterian. In general, I think people are ill-suited to making doctrinal decisions in isolation from an actual practicing community. To really understand paedobaptism, you can't just read books on it. You have to go experience life in a congregation that does it well (as well as it can be done). Otherwise, you miss how it plays out in life and integrates with the rest of Scripture and worship.

Then, you can make a decision based on how you read Scripture and the effect you see it having in the church.


----------



## deleteduser99 (Feb 23, 2012)

> What if I become convinced that the Presbyterians are correct?



I think you're worrying about something you don't need to be worried about; namely, something that hasn't happened yet. Study Scripture, and go wherever it binds your conscience; you are safest doing that.


----------



## Pilgrim (Feb 25, 2012)

CharlieJ said:


> I used to be Baptist, but am now Presbyterian. In general, I think people are ill-suited to making doctrinal decisions in isolation from an actual practicing community. To really understand paedobaptism, you can't just read books on it. You have to go experience life in a congregation that does it well (as well as it can be done). Otherwise, you miss how it plays out in life and integrates with the rest of Scripture and worship.
> 
> Then, you can make a decision based on how you read Scripture and the effect you see it having in the church.



Sooooo your counsel is for him to discontinue attending the Baptist church of which he is a member (assuming he's a member) and start regularly attending a Presbyterian church. And of course hope that it's one that does it well. And then make his decision, all the while disregarding the those who currently rule over him. 

Using that train of thought, it could just as well be said "To really understand dispensationalism, you can't just read books on it...." "To really understand Arminianism, you can't just read books on it..." "To really understand Romanism, you can't just read books on it..." "To really understand Oneness Pentecostalism, you can't just read books on it...."


----------



## sevenzedek (Feb 25, 2012)

Harley said:


> > What if I become convinced that the Presbyterians are correct?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're worrying about something you don't need to be worried about; namely, something that hasn't happened yet. Study Scripture, and go wherever it binds your conscience; you are safest doing that.



You would seem to be correct, however, I wouldn't altogether say that I am "worried." I am concerned at what would happen if I became convinced of paedo-baptism. There is a tension that exists in the thought of this. I think its okay to think this way like it would be okay to dread the thought of other things happening that have not yet happened when those scenarios are considered. (e.g. I dread the thought of division in the body)

On this note, let me say that I am not particularly interested in hearing about solutions to a problem I don't have yet. I am more particularly interested in hearing about the struggles others have had and how they overcame them.

Moreover, this topic becomes very relevant to other challenges we might face. How have others handled changes in major doctrinal convictions in relation to their local congregation?

I think I failed at conveying my intentions, again. I hope I don't become known for that around here. My intentions were not to say, "I am about to switch denominations. Help me figure it out!"

Thanks to anyone who replies.


----------



## CharlieJ (Feb 25, 2012)

Pilgrim said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> > I used to be Baptist, but am now Presbyterian. In general, I think people are ill-suited to making doctrinal decisions in isolation from an actual practicing community. To really understand paedobaptism, you can't just read books on it. You have to go experience life in a congregation that does it well (as well as it can be done). Otherwise, you miss how it plays out in life and integrates with the rest of Scripture and worship.
> ...



Let me put it this way. There are some doctrines that I do not find at all compelling. There are other ones that I do. For example, I have no compelling reason to be interested personally in Oneness Pentecostalism, thus there is no reason at all for me to go to any great lengths to find out more about it. However, my own journey to Presbyterianism was a dynamic exchange between my reading of Scripture and my life experience. It has to be so. I knew a few Presbyterians and became friends with them. I attended church a few times with them. It was by acculturating myself to some extent into Presbyterianism, seeing how their Presbyterian identity played out in their corporate life and worship, that gave me the insight I needed to make a decision. All paradigm shifts have this personal, embodied element to them. 

I have also had charismatic friends. I have attended church with them. I gained insight into their lives and worship. I believe that my experiences help me to understand the way they think and what is important to them. However, with this added insight, I actually found charismatic Christianity less compelling. 

So, no. I don't think anyone needs to discontinue their current church practice. However, I don't think one can really give a doctrine or a church a fair shake while analyzing it at a distance. Until you throw yourself into the mix, and see and hear it for yourself, it's not "real" to the person. It's just a label that is easily dismissed. It's easy, too easy, to discount belief X when all the people you know and respect discount belief X. It's not until you meet some friendly, likable, intelligent people who hold belief X, and to some degree develop a sympathy with those who hold belief X, that you are really in a position to overcome your prejudices and make a good decision.


----------



## Pilgrim (Feb 25, 2012)

Charlie,

I agree that that if one only interacts with those of his own camp (especially those that are blithely dismissive of other views, which is too often the case) that it will be difficult to seriously engage other views and be able to represent them accurately. I've noted previously the need to read primary source materials rather than polemics against a particular position and have found that to be most helpful. The pitfall would be being blown about by every wind of doctrine if one is not well grounded on the basics, depending on what is being considered.


----------



## Weston Stoler (Feb 26, 2012)

I suggest getting in touch with a PCA, OPC, or EPC pastor in your area, talk to them about it. It would be best to talk to someone in person about this issue. This won't require breaking communion with your church or voiding elders advice. Go have lunch one day, I am sure he would be happy too.


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

Weston Stoler said:


> I suggest getting in touch with a PCA, OPC, or EPC pastor in your area



What? No ARP or RPCNA?


----------



## Martin (Feb 26, 2012)

I am working through the issue myself and have been for sometime. It can be quite discouraging at times. My advice is to be careful to not let it consume all of your study. For a period whenever I opened the Bible, my thoughts and attention turned to the subject immediately and that is where my study stayed. This really seemed to set me back spiritually and instead of learning I got bogged down on one subject it seems. Maybe it was because I could not figure it out and became discouraged. Let us know how it works out. I hope to understand soon myself and I hope all of your concerns are figured out!


----------



## Unoriginalname (Feb 26, 2012)

Marrow Man said:


> What? No ARP or RPCNA


Pssh ARP, and who are the RPCNA? Aren't they those dirty Ultrapresbyterians? 
Seriously, I would repeat the notion that it should not consume your every thought and to really take your time studying out the issue.


----------



## Weston Stoler (Feb 26, 2012)

Marrow Man said:


> Weston Stoler said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest getting in touch with a PCA, OPC, or EPC pastor in your area
> ...



I'm sorry they are just so rare in my part of the south that I forget they exist.


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

Weston Stoler said:


> I'm sorry they are just so rare in my part of the south that I forget they exist.



No problem, just giving you a hard time. There are some ARPs (not many) in Alabama. Not sure about the RPCNA. Not many in the south because they were anti-slavery and whole congregations apparently left and went northward during early to mid-1800s.


----------



## Andres (Feb 26, 2012)

I know there's an ARP congregation in Mississippi with a pretty cool pastor.


----------



## JML (Feb 26, 2012)

Marrow Man said:


> There are some ARPs (not many) in Alabama. Not sure about the RPCNA. Not many in the south because they were anti-slavery and whole congregations apparently left and went northward during early to mid-1800s.



There is only one RPCNA in Alabama. It is located in Selma.


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2012)

There used to be an ARP Church in New Albany, MS. Cleveland Street Presbyterian, because they sponsored my first Scout Troop.


----------



## Scottish Lass (Feb 26, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> There used to be an ARP Church in New Albany, MS. Cleveland Street Presbyterian, because they sponsored my first Scout Troop.



There are four in/around New Albany, including Cleveland Street.


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

Scottish Lass said:


> GulfCoast Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > There used to be an ARP Church in New Albany, MS. Cleveland Street Presbyterian, because they sponsored my first Scout Troop.
> ...



And I used to pastor one of them! (Ebenezer ARP Church, Blue Mountain, MS).


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2012)

How cool is THAT! I am not the only member of the PB that has been to "First Monday."


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> How cool is THAT! I am not the only member of the PB that has been to "First Monday."



Well, I never went (because I could tell just from driving buy how junky it was). Anna went once, though, and was highly disappointed. Interesting, they always called it "First Monday" even though it was during the weekend.

BTW, there is an ARP church in your next of the woods (Moss Point, MS).


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2012)

When I was a youngster, "last sat/first mon" was great! There were folks selling homeade poultices, you could get a new handle fitted to an axe or hoe on the spot (this was good, since I was forever breaking post-hole diggers), the nice pentecostal ladies sold homeade bread with little bible verses baked inside ("bread of life"), folks shoed horses, sharpened knives, it was like something out of the Foxfire books. Now it is kinda more like a giant flea market. 

The only Presbyterian Church I know of in Moss Point is (or was) a very small PCA church. I loved the Cleveland Street ARP Church.


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> Now it is kinda more like a giant flea market.



That's what I remember (was there from 2004-2006), except a very bad flea market.




GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> The only Presbyterian Church I know of in Moss Point is (or was) a very small PCA church.



Helena Presbyterian Church is ARP. Probably a very small church. I went down there in 2005 to deliver supplies from the New Albany Churches after Katrina hit.


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2012)

I just found it on Google. Moss Point must have annexed, I had no idea they went that far north now! Its in the Helena community up by the airport. I am sure they are good folks up there! (We consider anything above I10 to be North Mississippi in these parts!)

I just looked, and I have worshipped in 3 of the ARP Churches in New Albany area. Cleveland Street, the "new" one on Highway 15 that resulted from the split in Cleveland street, and Hopewell, where the old family farm is located. I was not cognizant of the different "flavors" of Presbyterian in my youth. Cleveland Street has one of the most beautiful small town facilities I have ever seen. It is what a church "should" look like to me.


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

It was actually being renovated back in 2005 or 2006. The ceiling beams that were installed when the church was built (around 1900) were not large enough to support the ceiling, which had a significant sag to it. They had to redo the interior, and I think they wanted to flip the sanctuary around (with the pulpit area being near the street).

Part of Cleveland Street's problem (and the reason they built the other church, back in 1976 -- the largest church in our presbytery, btw) is that it is landlocked on a street in a section of downtown that gets very little traffic anymore. As is the case with lots of older churches that were built around the time automobiles were just being to become popular, there is little to-no-parking for the church.

But I'm surprised you didn't mention the really "quirky" feature of the Cleveland St. church. The manse (next door to the church) is built on the same piece of property where William Faulkner was born (not the same house; that house no longer exists and the manse is on the site now). There is an historical marker in the yard and everything.


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2012)

I had frankly forgotten all about the Faulkner connection. I used to chain my bike to that marker at cub scout meetings! We lived 4 blocks back "up the hill" from Cleveland Street PC. My neighbor Mr. MacMillian was a RE when the "split" occured and was one of the folks that kept Cleveland Street going. I remember him waving his old briar pipe at me one day saying with a grin: "Boy, you will make a Presbyterian some day." I guess Mr. Mac turned out to be right!


----------



## Scottish Lass (Feb 26, 2012)

Okay, back on topic, y'all!


----------



## Marrow Man (Feb 26, 2012)

Well, we sort of did. Mark finished by talking about moving to a paedo position ...


----------



## steadfast7 (Feb 26, 2012)

I think if we're honest enough with regard to this question, we will find reasons that run deeper than just "scripture is clear on this." Perhaps you personally had a dramatic conversion and still remember the blessed day of your own baptism by immersion. Perhaps you are a father and was converted later in life through a Presbyterian church and led your whole family to receive the covenant sign. Perhaps you have experience miscarriage in your family and it has become important to you that your children receive baptism as infants. For some, there is simply a desire to identify fully with the early church, Calvin, the Reformed, or the Presbyterian theologies. These subjective reasons are powerful in contributing to the reasons why we tend to view scripture a certain way. It's unavoidable and not necessarily wrong for you to have these filters. Jon, perhaps do an inventory of some of these matters along with your study of scripture and books on the topic. Do you want the experience of baptizing your children as infants, or do you want them to experience it themselves when they have received faith? Do you want to identify with a particular confession of faith or tradition? Whatever you decide in the end, may you be fully convinced and faithful to that tradition.


----------



## sevenzedek (Mar 5, 2012)

"


steadfast7 said:


> I think if we're honest enough with regard to this question, we will find reasons that run deeper than just "scripture is clear on this." Perhaps you personally had a dramatic conversion and still remember the blessed day of your own baptism by immersion. Perhaps you are a father and was converted later in life through a Presbyterian church and led your whole family to receive the covenant sign. Perhaps you have experience miscarriage in your family and it has become important to you that your children receive baptism as infants. For some, there is simply a desire to identify fully with the early church, Calvin, the Reformed, or the Presbyterian theologies. These subjective reasons are powerful in contributing to the reasons why we tend to view scripture a certain way. It's unavoidable and not necessarily wrong for you to have these filters. Jon, perhaps do an inventory of some of these matters along with your study of scripture and books on the topic. Do you want the experience of baptizing your children as infants, or do you want them to experience it themselves when they have received faith? Do you want to identify with a particular confession of faith or tradition? Whatever you decide in the end, may you be fully convinced and faithful to that tradition.



I think you have pointed out something very insightful, Dennis. Thanks! I am not sure whether your insight applies to my situation, but I will definitely consider what you have said. I never thought about looking at my motivations in this issue. You are correct. My motivations are likely to cloud the truth. 

To be sure, one of the reasons that I am looking into baptism question is because I want to know the truth for myself. When I read such "greats of the church" as Matthew Henry, John Calvin, William Gurnall, John Owen, I don't know that I should lightly dismiss their convictions. While these men a liable to err, I do believe their teachings deserve my consideration.


----------

