# How are you gonna use your tax refund?



## Pergamum (Apr 16, 2013)

How ya gonna use your tax refund (if you're gonna get one)?

How should I use mine? I want to use 80% or more towards collage savings for kids (we have no debt, but haven't done well saving)? 

Any suggestions? What should I invest in?


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 16, 2013)

I'll probably save mine for the next job search. And a trip back to Michigan to see my family if I get one pretty quick.

I'd personally recommend an Amazon Kindle if you don't have one. The devices run much cheaper for the older (and still very useful) models, and you can get volumes of good solid Christian books old and new either for free or dirt cheap.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 16, 2013)

I wrote a total 6 checks to various levels of gov't yesterday (some to pay additional taxes for 2012, some to pay the first quarterly estimates for 2013, and then the city gov't for my "business license" since the gov't considers pastors to be "self-employed"). I won't post the total here, but it was slightly more than I make in a single month, gross. 

Needless to say, no refund to spend.


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## Romans922 (Apr 16, 2013)

I used it to pay off my undergrad loans (ALMOST THERE --> all sinful debt paid off!)


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## JML (Apr 16, 2013)

Mine is going to pay for the doctor and hospital bills from the birth of my son in February.


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## Constantlyreforming (Apr 16, 2013)

We donated all of ours to the Presidential Campaign Fund.




































(kidding)


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## reaganmarsh (Apr 16, 2013)

We put our state refund toward paying our Federal tax! I'm with Tim. No real refund here!


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 16, 2013)

If some of y'all are getting that much back in refunds, aren't y'all overpaying to begin with?


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## Marrow Man (Apr 16, 2013)

Constantlyreforming said:


> We donated all of ours to the Presidential Campaign Fund



You can donate that to the Tim Phillips 2016 Presidential campaign!


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## irresistible_grace (Apr 16, 2013)

Scottish Lass said:


> If some of y'all are getting that much back in refunds, aren't y'all overpaying to begin with?



Not in my case... 
We are in the 10% tax bracket.
With the Earned Income Tax Credit, plus three covenant children & a Stay-at-home mom, we get back more than we put in (I think). We filed our taxes in January so I would have to look again but we do get a "Return" without "overpaying to begin with!"


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## Romans922 (Apr 16, 2013)

We don't make enough, we have 2 kids, and with things like housing allowance and claiming business expenses, mileage, medical mileage, giving, etc. we get some back. We don't put any in. I don't do quarterly inputs. I do once a year W-2 for ministers.

As a minister when we did 1099 we didn't any back, unless we overpaid on our quarterly inputs. Our tax friend told us to move to W-2 and we wouldn't be putting in anything. We are making here only 5k less a year than my first pastorate (and I don't have a manse).


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## irresistible_grace (Apr 16, 2013)

As to the OP...
Between our mortgage, auto loan and two student loans... 
We have about $100,000 of debt. So, our "Return" is spoken for. 
No college fund for our covenant children.


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## Pergamum (Apr 16, 2013)

Wow, sorry guys.... sounds like many folks won't get anything or use it all for debt repayment.

If you did get anything back, and wanted to put it towards college for your kids, where would you stash it? Gold? land? IRA? Etc? What is wisest in this economy?


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## Marrow Man (Apr 16, 2013)

Romans922 said:


> We don't make enough, we have 2 kids, and with things like housing allowance and claiming business expenses, mileage, medical mileage, giving, etc. we get some back. We don't put any in. I don't do quarterly inputs. I do once a year W-2 for ministers.



How does that work (the W-2)? Do you just pay it all at the end of the year, or do they take it out during the year?

Every accountant I've ever consulted has said I need to do the quarterly estimates. The problem with these is that they are almost never accurate because all the factors change from year to year. So, if you under-report (which almost always happens), there is a penalty (usually not much, depends on how much the estimate is off). The whole thing is a mess.


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## Heath (Apr 16, 2013)

We added a bit to our kid's savings and are saving the rest to help with an extra long maternity leave for my wife in the fall.


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## Romans922 (Apr 16, 2013)

I've been where you are Tim. 

You should get it in January from your employer (church). Since I am the only one employed by the Church, I just work with our Treasurer and make sure all the numbers are right on it. 

I don't pay SS (opted out), so if you get SS, you'd have to research how that would work. 

I have asked a few other pastor friends of mine and all of them do W-2's as well. You might start asking around. You may ask this question also in the Elders only forum.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 16, 2013)

I took the first $5500 and put it in my wife's IRA. The remaining amount was put in our savings account.


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## Berean (Apr 16, 2013)

reaganmarsh said:


> We put our state refund toward paying our Federal tax! I'm with Tim. No real refund here!



 The entire state refund went to the IRS with additional funds added.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 16, 2013)

For what it's worth, I did not opt out of SS/FICA; that is the drain down which most of my money to the gov't goes. The amount I pay out in FICA is probably 4x or 5x the amount that is strictly federal taxes. I do not want to derail the thread, but I could not in good conscience opt out at the time, for several reasons. I asked the opinions of a well-known theonomist when I was making the decision and was my question was brushed aside. Who knows; if I was on the PB at the time, things might have been different. 

I do live in a manse, so that would be difference as well. I have never heard of a W-2 for ministers, however.


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## nicnap (Apr 16, 2013)

Estimated quarterly here ... however, we set aside an amount larger than we have to pay, so that we can pretend to get a refund. It all goes to savings-- Edward Jones & our own private reserve which was greatly depleted by paying for an adoption.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 16, 2013)

The fed- covered the cost of our last grocery shopping trip. Still waiting on the state, which will fill my gas tank. No big refunds here.


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## Bill The Baptist (Apr 16, 2013)

Marrow Man said:


> How does that work (the W-2)? Do you just pay it all at the end of the year, or do they take it out during the year?



This really only becomes an issue if you make enough to pay taxes in the first place. Since I make very little money and I have five, soon to be six, kids, I don't have to worry about owing money. I believe you only have to make quarterly payments if your income exceeds a certain amount.


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## Mushroom (Apr 16, 2013)

Payed nothing in, owed $4000 in self-employment tax, IRS wanted to give me $6500 of Other People's Money for EIC & child tax credit. I let them pay themselves out of that largess and keep the $2500 extra. Done that for years, and it always confuses 'em. So I guess I spent my 'return' (OPM) on paying down the debt. I'm a little troubled about using OPM to pay my self-employment theft, er, I mean tax, but there's no way I could pay that, so it's either that or the guys in costumes with badges and guns might come take me away. Maybe I should just let 'em do that - probably gonna happen someday anyway, and if I get there before the rush I might get to pick a good spot on the detention center floor. A bunk by a window would be nice.

But as for refunds, when I used to get them, I always wanted them to be as small as possible. My best was $36. My preference is to owe a small amount. Still despise the idea of my labor funding abortions, drone bombs, gay 'rights', & etc., and even more giving Leviathan an interest-free loan for same.

No refund here.

So you guys that are getting more in a 'refund' than you put in, how do you justify taking it? Isn't it participating in theft?


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## tman (Apr 16, 2013)

What is a refund?


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## mhseal (Apr 16, 2013)

My house needs a new roof... so there's that.


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## Apologist4Him (Apr 16, 2013)

Dear Brad, my thought on the subject, most if not all taxation is robbery. Personal property taxes are the biggest financial scandal. Why should people have to pay taxes for property, and especially property they have bought and paid off including the taxes, and then continue to be taxed every year, even though it's paid off? That's just taxation on top of taxation. Almost everything we buy (offline) we're taxed for, including the essentials for living. The government gets a share, is part of nearly every transaction we make throughout the entire year. I do not agree with the government (neither federal nor state) deciding how to spend our money nor the percentage taxed, which in some instances is higher than the traditional 10% tithe. Governments do little to nothing to earn our money (don't get me started on what their salaries are versus the average citizen, nor their retirement plans versus the average citizen). In short, and this is my opinion, taxation itself should be abolished, it is like being robbed by the government throughout the entire year. In case anyone might be wondering, no I've never had to pay taxes like most people, but that's because I own nearly nothing, poverty stricken poor as dirt.


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## Philip (Apr 16, 2013)

Brad said:


> So you guys that are getting more in a 'refund' than you put in, how do you justify taking it? Isn't it participating in theft?



No. I consider it the prerogative of the Civil Magistrate to take taxes (as I recall, Washington is still on the $1 bill). I may not agree with his use of the money, but then again, I would have disagreed with the use of public funds to pay to string up Christians as human torches in the first century as well. And yet I do recall a verse telling the Christians to honour the emperor. Whether or not we agree with policies, we are to honor and pray for those in authority as ministers of God.

The theft argument has more in common with Frederic Bastiat than with Scripture.

And to keep this on topic, I'm sticking the money away toward my graduate work.


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## au5t1n (Apr 16, 2013)

Philip said:


> The theft argument has more in common with Frederic Bastiat than with Scripture.



Is there a percentage at which taxation becomes theft? Would 100% be theft? 99%? 80%? The taxation in Christ's time was the rough equivalent of maybe 3% in terms of modern income tax. The Scripture says in 1 Samuel that 10% is an oppressive tax. Samuel warns Israel that their king will oppress them -- he will tax 10%. So given that our federal government taxes up into the thirties, haven't we crossed the line?

I'm not saying don't pay; I'm just saying, it's wrong for this much to be demanded.


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## earl40 (Apr 16, 2013)

SolaScriptura said:


> I took the first $5500 and put it in my wife's IRA. The remaining amount was put in our savings account.



Ya what's up with all the huge refunds this year? Ours was approx 3,000 more than last year and I about fell out of my chair when my wife told me.


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## Edward (Apr 16, 2013)

Living in the what the Census Bureau has listed as the 'wealthiest city in America' has its costs. The city sent me a notice that my fully functional garage door was too old and ugly, and demanded that I replace it. The tax refund will just about pay for that.


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## Mushroom (Apr 16, 2013)

Philip said:


> No. I consider it the prerogative of the Civil Magistrate to take taxes (as I recall, Washington is still on the $1 bill). I may not agree with his use of the money, but then again, I would have disagreed with the use of public funds to pay to string up Christians as human torches in the first century as well. And yet I do recall a verse telling the Christians to honour the emperor. Whether or not we agree with policies, we are to honor and pray for those in authority as ministers of God.


So you are asserting that Nero was acting as the minister of God when he torched Christians? I think perhaps that is a misconstruction of the verse in reference.


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## Jesus is my friend (Apr 16, 2013)

As part of the government engineered "working poor" we use it to survive the upcoming year and pray not to have to charge our groceries.


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## Apologist4Him (Apr 16, 2013)

Oh, I almost forgot, to answer the OP, half of our refund went towards paying one bill, the other half, divided in half went towards another bill (one is probably high interest) and with what little was left, went towards filling the gas tank, a month's supply of supporting my wife and I's expensive and unhealthy habit of smoking, and paying a co-payment for a medical bill, and hopefully we'll have enough for me to add a few resources to my Logos library (probably won't have enough for both James Orr and D.A. Carson), need to pay for a book though from IVP book club, late on paying for one. If I ever get the point of being able to save some money, the bank interest won't compare to tax percentages, and the stock market is like gambling. Rough times.


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## Philip (Apr 16, 2013)

Brad said:


> So you are asserting that Nero was acting as the minister of God when he torched Christians?



No. He was a minister of God even though he torched the Christians and was to be honoured as such. Even in opposition to an ungodly magistrate one must honour the office and its function---and its agents are to be treated with similar respect. 



au5t1n said:


> The Scripture says in 1 Samuel that 10% is an oppressive tax. Samuel warns Israel that their king will oppress them -- he will tax 10%. So given that our federal government taxes up into the thirties, haven't we crossed the line?



Given the expanded services that government currently provides, no. Current tax rates are certainly imprudent (as are many of the services that they, in theory, are funding) but I don't find them oppressive. Further, where does Samuel here say that the king is not within his rights in demanding such a tax?



au5t1n said:


> Is there a percentage at which taxation becomes theft?



Certainly---when the poor are starved while state officials live in luxury. If you want to see real examples of theft, look at North Korea, pre-revolutionary France, Ireland during the potato famine. To these people, just like to many of the Israelites, 10% was often the difference between life and death.


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## Mushroom (Apr 16, 2013)

Apologist4Him said:


> Oh, I almost forgot, to answer the OP, half of our refund went towards paying one bill, the other half, divided in half went towards another bill (one is probably high interest) and with what little was left, went towards filling the gas tank, a month's supply of supporting my wife and I's expensive and unhealthy habit of smoking, and paying a co-payment for a medical bill, and hopefully we'll have enough for me to add a few resources to my Logos library (probably won't have enough for both James Orr and D.A. Carson), need to pay for a book though from IVP book club, late on paying for one. If I ever get the point of being able to save some money, the bank interest won't compare to tax percentages, and the stock market is like gambling. Rough times.


If you're interested, I have found that e-cigs serve as an adequate replacement for smoking, with a plethora of flavor options, and a tiny fraction of the cost. I have gone through the trial and error part, and can direct you where to save a lot of money. Mindy and I both use e-cigs to great enjoyment and relatively small expense. PM if you want my take on it.


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## Mushroom (Apr 16, 2013)

Philip said:


> No. He was a minister of God even though he torched the Christians and was to be honoured as such. Even in opposition to an ungodly magistrate one must honour the office and its function---and its agents are to be treated with similar respect.


Over-the-edge statist interpretation of scripture. The bloody enemy of Christ and His people is transformed into the 'minister of Christ' by this errant view. That is just perverse. Your argument must center on the propriety of resistance to an unjust magistrate for a Christian. Even if you regard resistance improper, it is a jaded wickedness to declare him the 'minister of God' while he is burning your brethren as long as your behind isn't in flames.


Philip said:


> Certainly---when the poor are starved while state officials live in luxury. If you want to see real examples of theft, look at North Korea, pre-revolutionary France, Ireland during the potato famine. To these people, just like to many of the Israelites, 10% was often the difference between life and death.


Then, my friend, you have that criteria well established in this country. The gap between government pay and productive class pay and benefits is wide and widening.


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## tabrooks (Apr 16, 2013)

Payment directly towards principal of mortgage.


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## au5t1n (Apr 16, 2013)

Philip said:


> Certainly---when the poor are starved while state officials live in luxury. If you want to see real examples of theft, look at North Korea, pre-revolutionary France, Ireland during the potato famine. To these people, just like to many of the Israelites, 10% was often the difference between life and death.



The only reason we're not there is because we're propping ourselves up as a nation on pseudo-money and borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. Give it some time and we'll be there. I realize you did acknowledge the imprudence of current spending and taxing policy, but given that acknowledgment, I don't see that we really disagree except perhaps on the direness of the situation.


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## au5t1n (Apr 16, 2013)

To answer the question: tithe, savings, loan debt.


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## Mushroom (Apr 16, 2013)

Philip said:


> Given the expanded services that government currently provides, no. Current tax rates are certainly imprudent (as are many of the services that they, in theory, are funding) but I don't find them oppressive. Further, where does Samuel here say that the king is not within his rights in demanding such a tax?


Apparently you find yourself in the enviable position of determining what constitutes oppressive taxation, based on your valuation of the services government provides. Sweet! Maybe from now on we can just ask your views on all things and consider them settled, since evidently your personal subjective experience is monolithic and authoritive.


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## newcreature (Apr 16, 2013)

I used mine to float my living expenses for 2 months. I haven't worked since Thanksgiving and money has been tight. I was surprised at how large my federal refund was, though. But alas, it is gone now.


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## Philip (Apr 16, 2013)

Brad said:


> Over-the-edge statist interpretation of scripture. The bloody enemy of Christ and His people is transformed into the 'minister of Christ' by this errant view.



So why did Peter tell his readers to "honour the emperor"? Why did Paul call the civil authority "God's minister"? The office is a divine one no matter how it is abused and you have no right to disrespect it even as you speak truth to it---even in resistance to it.



Brad said:


> Your argument must center on the propriety of resistance to an unjust magistrate for a Christian. Even if you regard resistance improper, it is a jaded wickedness to declare him the 'minister of God' while he is burning your brethren as long as your behind isn't in flames.



A just resistance would come from a lesser magistrate. As for that last part---I don't care if it _is_ my behind burning in flames. I will speak truth and then be killed. The office must be respected even if held by a despot. The crown is higher than the one who wears it, and if there is to be resistance to the wearer it must be in the name of the crown and by legitimate authority under it.



Brad said:


> Then, my friend, you have that criteria well established in this country. The gap between government pay and productive class pay and benefits is wide and widening.



But the productive class (whatever is meant by that) is hardly starving. The peasants of France and Ireland were and those of Korea are today.

At any rate, this discussion has gotten off the topic at hand.


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## au5t1n (Apr 16, 2013)

I'll wrap up my part by noting that Daniel and John called ungodly rulers "beasts". The minister of God in Romans 13 upholds good and restrains evil. Nevertheless, I agree that lesser magistrates ought to lead the way in opposing tyrannical rule and that in the meantime Christian citizens should pay taxes and not resist the power by lawless violence.


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## irresistible_grace (Apr 17, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> *If you ... wanted to put it towards college for your kids, where would you stash it? Gold? land? IRA? Etc? What is wisest in this economy?*



If you really wanted to put it toward college for your children then you might want to look into a Section 529 college savings plan because it has tax benefits and you could get even more money back next year (if you qualified for a return this year).

EDIT:
http://www.savingforcollege.com/articles/2012-plan-performance-rankings-q4


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## irresistible_grace (Apr 17, 2013)

When we get out of debt, if we still qualify for a return, we will put it into a "Spousal ROTH-IRA" (right now the limit is $5,500 per year which BTW we have NEVER remotely received as a tax return). The benefit to a ROTH-IRA is that since you are adding "already taxed" money you only pay capital gains tax on the money you have "gained" in addition to what you have contributed when you withdraw after you are 59 1/2 years of age. An added bonus is that you can withdraw "what you have contributed" ANYTIME without penalty if you should ever need to. So, it is like a savings account on steroids!


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## Unoriginalname (Apr 17, 2013)

I bought a laptop.


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## SRoper (Apr 17, 2013)

We owed money for the first time this year. I think it was a combination of no longer having state income tax to pay (and losing that deduction) and investments doing better this year, so I guess I can't complain.


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## jwithnell (Apr 17, 2013)

Keg party -- our house Friday!

Ours is keeping our heads above water. Generally, I've put 50 percent of windfalls and raises (remember them?) into savings, a recommendation my Dad made many years ago.


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## Mushroom (Apr 17, 2013)

Philip said:


> A just resistance would come from a lesser magistrate.


So if no lesser magistrate takes a stand, we just sit by and watch the slaughter? Oh, that's right.... that's what we've been doing. Nevermind, move along, nothing to see here. 

Which is one good reason I want to get out of here.


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## Mindaboo (Apr 17, 2013)

jwithnell said:


> Keg party -- our house Friday!



Be careful putting out that invitation! Some of us fellow Virginians live less than an hour's drive away. We'll bring our sleeping bags. What time should we be there.


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## au5t1n (Apr 17, 2013)

Next time I'm visiting the Fullers, I need to meet all of you Virginians. Philip lives in VA, too -- only 45 min. from the Fullers according to Google Maps. We should arrange to have a PB party this summer!


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2013)

Brad said:


> So if no lesser magistrate takes a stand, we just sit by and watch the slaughter?



No---we stand fast and bear witness to the truth of Christ, reminding wicked rulers who they are answerable to and where their power comes from. And we do so humbly and with due deference to the offices which they hold. We render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.



au5t1n said:


> We should arrange to have a PB party this summer!



I'm down with that.


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## Pilgrim Pastor (Apr 17, 2013)

Marrow Man said:


> I wrote a total 6 checks to various levels of gov't yesterday (some to pay additional taxes for 2012, some to pay the first quarterly estimates for 2013, and then the city gov't for my "business license" since the gov't considers pastors to be "self-employed"). I won't post the total here, but it was slightly more than I make in a single month, gross.
> 
> Needless to say, no refund to spend.



Gotta love that...


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## Mindaboo (Apr 17, 2013)

au5t1n said:


> Next time I'm visiting the Fullers, I need to meet all of you Virginians. Philip lives in VA, too -- only 45 min. from the Fullers according to Google Maps. We should arrange to have a PB party this summer!



You plan it, and I'll provide the location. There are quite a few PB people who are within driving distance from us. You just need to let me know when you plan to visit again, Austin.


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## KMK (Apr 17, 2013)

10% will go to the church. Not sure about the rest.


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## Nate (Apr 17, 2013)

Our children's Christian school tuition and automobile expenses.


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## Lindsay (Apr 19, 2013)

I owed part to my city and am saving the rest.


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## "William The Baptist" (Apr 19, 2013)

I think we tithed on it, then put the bulk of it toward my school loans, then put some aside for projects materials for the house/yard.


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## sevenzedek (Apr 19, 2013)

I bought a new iPad and a Schuyler bible. Then we're going to paint the downstairs and go see some family this summer and then celebrate our fifth year wedding anniversary in Tennessee. I am feeling spoiled right now. My Schuyler bible smells good and my wife looks great. I bought her some perfume too. Oh, and we're going to save some money too. We had a big return.

My son's hair-do was free.


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