# Is Modalism a damnable heresy?



## fivepointcalvinist (May 9, 2006)

i have a good friend at work who is a modalist and it concerns me that she denies the trinity. we all recognize this as being heretical, but is it worthy of damnation? if so why?


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## SolaScriptura (May 9, 2006)

Hold on... she actually denies the Trinity? Or is her understanding of it tantamount to modalism?


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## fivepointcalvinist (May 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> Hold on... she actually denies the Trinity? Or is her understanding of it tantamount to modalism?



im not sure how a person could hold onto both concomitantly.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 9, 2006)

You might liken theological error to diseases of the body.

Some stuff is so bad, it'll kill you right away. Other stuff doesn't kill you, just sickens you, makes you weak, makes you impotent. Some illnesses will sometimes kill, other times, not, depending on other factors.

So what kind of "illness" is modalism? I think, under the right circumstances modalism is deadly, but perhaps (?!) not all the time. It is a major malfunction of the Christian theological system, yes. After all, the Trinity is not some kind of peripheral doctrine. And an understanding of the Trinity has implications beyond merely theology. It is the Christian philosophical answer, a consistent solution to the fix/flux dilemma.

Under the right circumstances, the cold virus can kill. Pneumonia is more deadly. And these illnesses often kill by openning up the body to opportunistic and truly deadly diseases. Perhaps modalism is like that?


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## Arch2k (May 9, 2006)




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## VictorBravo (May 9, 2006)

Reminds me of Servitus' prayer as he was being executed. That has always haunted me. He denied the trinity, yet he prayed to Jesus for mercy.

Vic


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## turmeric (May 9, 2006)

So Servetus was a Oneness guy?


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## Contra_Mundum (May 9, 2006)

Josh,
I'm saying I don't know. I don't know if it possible to know in most cases. I do know that without the Trinity, Christian theology is going to break down, and therefore, those who espouse modalism as a worked-through system are turning their back on Christianity. I think we've had this discussion on the board in the past, asking if Arminians are going to heaven, etc. Who can say exactly? Neither truth alone saves, nor does error damn, because someone who knows his "justification by faith" and his "Trinity" is going to be lost because he was deluded about his soul's condition; and no perfect theologians are going to heaven, only mixed-up, sinful ones--who are righteous in Jesus.

So how important is "getting theology right" then? I don't know.... how important is good health to living? If we practice good health, we have the expectation of a long life, of children and grandchildren, of working for a legacy. If we ignore health, hygiene, marriage, etc., we will probably die soon, and have no legacy but misery, if that.

Right theology matters. It is the difference between life and death. We need to get it right. Modalism is error, and error is toxic. How quickly it'll kill, and how widespread the effects of an epidemic--I don't know if we want to learn that objectively, any more than we'd like to learn what a new plague will do.

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Herald (May 9, 2006)

The problem with theological error is that it begets more error. Typically heresies (such as modalism) do not exist in a vaccum. While we cannot state categorically that modalists are going to hell, we know they are skating on thin ice. I would plead with them to repent and embrace the truth.


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## Ivan (May 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> The problem with theological error is that it begets more error. Typically heresies (such as modalism) do not exist in a vaccum. While we cannot state categorically that modalists are going to hell, we know they are skating on thin ice. I would plead with them to repent and embrace the truth.



Yeah and that thin ice is melting fast. I agree with your comment, brother.


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## R. Scott Clark (May 10, 2006)

The Athanasian Creed says:



> Whoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.
> 
> ....This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly he cannot be saved.



The Athanasian makes confession of the Trinity a very serious matter indeed.

rsc


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2006)

_Redemptive History_ makes the Trinity a fundamental and undeniable doctrine. Yes, modalism is a damnable heresy.

If men truly are saved, then they will know Christ, the Spirit and the Father as God.

John 8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. *If* you had known Me, you *would have known My Father also*."

On the other note, if one thinks they know God, but does not acknowledge Christ as God, then equally there is a problem:

John 8:42 "*If God were your Father*, _you would love Me_, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."

John 14:7 "* If you had known Me*, _you would have known My Father also_; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Thus, the Spirit also - 

John 15:26 But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of *truth* who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

And how does one know the truth of these things?

1 Peter 1:11 _the Spirit of Christ who was in them_ was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Without the Trinity, there can be no salvation. That would mean.....well, you come to those conclusions on your own.

Sum of Saving Knowledge is helpful:

Christ Jesus, the eternal Son of God, as Mediator, and the Father in him, hath been about the making friendship (by his word and Spirit) betwixt himself and the elect world: God (saith he) was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

That he who obeyeth this commandment hath built his salvation on a solid ground: for, First, He hath found the promised Messiah, completely furnished with all perfections unto the perfect execution of the offices of Prophet, Priest, and King; for he is that Christ in whom the man doth believe. 2. He hath embraced a Saviour, who is able to save to the uttermost, yea, and who doth effectually save every one that cometh to God through him; for he is Jesus, the true Saviour of his people from their sins. 3. He that obeyeth this command hath built his salvation on the Rock, that is, on the Son of God, to whom it is no robbery to be called equal to the Father, and who is worthy to he the object of saving faith, and of spiritual worship: for this is his command, (saith he) that it we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ.

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by C. Matthew McMahon]


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## srhoades (May 10, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> 
> Pneumonia is more deadly. And these illnesses often kill by openning up the body to opportunistic and truly deadly diseases. Perhaps modalism is like that?



So she has pneumatology pnuemonia?


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## Dave L (May 10, 2006)

I think we would all accept that individuals can be truly saved with an incomplete or defective view in some areas of theology. Young children, for example.

But if the Spirit leads us into all truth, does this not imply that He will work in our hearts over time to bring us to a correct understanding of those things that are _essentia_l to salvation?

I suppose what I'm asking is, can someone be born again who has a defective view of the Trinity (such as modalism), and will the Holy Spirit not then reveal the truth to them more clearly?

So can we then say that someone who persistently _over time_ remains in error on the _essentials_, is giving no evidence that they are truly saved?


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## Semper Fidelis (May 10, 2006)

1. Only God knows who is saved.

2. I would have no confidence in the salvation of any man (or woman) that denied the Trinity. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Godhead and worship an idol.


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## CDM (May 10, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> _Redemptive History_ makes the Trinity a fundamental and undeniable doctrine. Yes, modalism is a damnable heresy.
> 
> If men truly are saved, then they will know Christ, the Spirit and the Father as God.
> ...







> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> 1. Only God knows who is saved.
> 
> 2. I would have no confidence in the salvation of any man (or woman) that denied the Trinity. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Godhead and worship an idol.


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## Preach (May 10, 2006)

Vic,
Servetus (to the best of our understanding) is in hell. Study the context of his life and trial. Once you do that, notice carefully the specific words he chose as his closing prayer in this life. He knowingly, wilfully, and personally denied the Triune God of Scripture as the flames licked his body. He prayed to Jesus as God's Son (and Servetus-by his own admission and persistance-said Jesus was not God).


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## bigheavyq (May 10, 2006)

I have many family members who are modalists. They all are sincere people who believe in Jesus. I also believe they are heretics who may go to hell. Most modalists are apostalic pentecostals or united pentecostal church goers. Not only are they modalists, they are very legalistic, exclusionary(only those baptised correctly in Jesus name only and speak in tongues are going to heaven), and very judgemental. They are much closer to JW's in their overall beliefs then to orthodox christianity.
Modalists are becoming more influential in the mainstream such as TD Jakes and Tommy Tenney(who wrote God-chasers). 
They officially reject all church creeds after 100 AD as being corrupted by the Roman Church. They reject church history and theology from 100 ad to 1900 ad except some heretical teachings in the past such as mysticsm and gnosticism. 
I believe it is a damnable heresy, however I am not God and He chooses whom He wills.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 10, 2006)

Johnathan,
That's what I'm talking about. An error, especially one that big, is a sign that you should be looking for other signs of unregeneracy, and you are likely to find them. Because error begets error. God's Spirit is going to lead you into truth. God IS the Trinity. That's a fundamental Christian doctrine regarding God's identity. If you are not believing in the _Christian_ God, the only true God, how can you be saved? People who are functional modalists, or just confused--about what their church teaches, or about what Trinitarian Christians really believe, not what they've been told we believe--these people are living in a grey area, and God alone knows which of them will ultimately be saved, in spite of their theological expressions.


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## VictorBravo (May 10, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Preach_
> Vic,
> Servetus (to the best of our understanding) is in hell. Study the context of his life and trial. Once you do that, notice carefully the specific words he chose as his closing prayer in this life. He knowingly, wilfully, and personally denied the Triune God of Scripture as the flames licked his body. He prayed to Jesus as God's Son (and Servetus-by his own admission and persistance-said Jesus was not God).



I don't disagree with you. No question he was a heretic and that he was spreading dangerous doctrine. It still haunts me, nevertheless. I think of it as probably fervent false hope, and then surprise. 

Still, his last words were more subtle than some of the other heretics, who seemed to understand their lost state.


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## Jon (May 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist_
> i have a good friend at work who is a modalist and it concerns me that she denies the trinity. we all recognize this as being heretical, but is it worthy of damnation? if so why?


Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (1 Jn. 2:22; 4:3, 2 Jn. 7 KJV)

_Soli Deo Gloria_

Jon


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