# Use of Doxology and Gloria Patri in Worship (For Non-Ep-ers Only)



## Romans922

To sing these (Doxology/Gloria Patri) is not Scripturally commanded. I believe I am correct saying it is tradition. Calvin/Luther both did not do it (I believe). I don't see it in the Directory of Public Worship.

Can anyone give me a reason as to why we should definitely sing these?


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## NaphtaliPress

Andrew,
I know you qualified the thread as to participants; but if you are asking why the Westminster DfPW doesn't include these there is a substantial history to which you may find in works such as M'Crie's Public Worship in Presbyterian Scotland and David Hay Fleming's article _Hymnology of the Reformation_ (see shorter works volume 1 at RHB or naphtali.com).


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## Kim G

Romans922 said:


> Can anyone give me a reason as to why we should definitely sing these?


Well, being that I've never been to a church that sang those, I wouldn't know why we definitely should. Is it a common practice?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

We do not sing them at my ARP church.


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## JBaldwin

Many Presbyterian churches sing them in response to parts of the worship. For example, after the offertory, they sing the Doxology which is a corporate response to the giving of tithes and offerings. The Gloria Patri is also a response. Both of these (if I remember correctly) trace back to the liturgy of the RRC church. 

Our church does not sing the Gloria Patri, but on a rare occasion, we sing the Doxology, but only when it seems an appropriate congregational response to something in the worship. 

I find no biblical reason why we should have to sing them. They are merely part of tradition.


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## Me Died Blue

In addition to multiple Psalms and at least one other (full) hymn, the congregation I'm joining sings both weekly (from the red Trinity Hymnal).

I certainly don't see a reason they should (read: must) _definitely_ be sung. Likewise, apart from an EP (or ES - "Exclusive Scripture") position, of course there's nothing _wrong_ with singing them, either - but as with any hymn or spiritual song, if the elders choose to have it sung every week, hopefully the congregation would at least be made to understand that such is not required (or even _necessarily_ preferable) in every (or even any) biblical worship setting, so that it does not become a sort of _"practical element"_ of its own in the minds of the congregants.


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## Romans922

Right, what I am seeing in my congregation (and this was one of the elder's concern) as that they have been doing it for years and years and years that now it is like, ok now we stand and sing this (Doxology or Gloria Patri). We are not thinking about what we are singing, we are just singing (it isn't in their hearts). 

Thus, i just wanted to get opinion on the 'need' or lack of 'need' to be in a worship service.


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## ewg

We sing the Doxology after taking up the collection and it is largely just ceremony. When I first started attending the church and reciting it with the congregation I did not know the doxology was in the hymnal. So each week I would carefully listen to figure out the words.  Eventually, I did learn the true words but I wish I could remember some of the formulas that I thought the congregation was saying as the formulas were quite amusing. Perhaps our congregations would benefit from a sermon on the doxology the history and meaning of it. That might do some good in bringing back to life a largely dead tradition.


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## JBaldwin

While the idea of a doxology goes back to the 7th century, the doxology which is most common to protestants is much more recent. Here is a link for more information:

Where Did We Get The Doxology? - Christian History & Biography - ChristianityTodayLibrary.com


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## ww

Having been a Member of a Church which does not have the Doxology and/or the Gloria Patri in Worship and then attending another RP Church several weeks ago which does I realized how much I missed singing them in Worship regardless of the actual origins.


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## Casey

We sing the Gloria Patri after the Assurance of Pardon, the Doxology after the Offering has been collected, and a three-fold Amen after the Benediction. There is no reason why you have to sing them, and there is no reason why you shouldn't sing them.


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## kalawine

CaseyBessette said:


> We sing the Gloria Patri after the Assurance of Pardon, the Doxology after the Offering has been collected, and a three-fold Amen after the Benediction. There is no reason why you have to sing them, and there is no reason why you shouldn't sing them.



 We sing the Doxology every week but I know it's tradition.


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## Southern Presbyterian

We sing the Doxology after the offering. Periodically an explanation as to why we sing it is given (like when there are visitors). We do the same for the Apostle's Creed, just as a reminder that it is not some sort of "magic incantation".

I agree with others, it is good to be reminded why we do these things and that they are in response to and part of worship.


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## Marrow Man

CaseyBessette said:


> We sing the Gloria Patri after the Assurance of Pardon, the Doxology after the Offering has been collected...



This is the way we sing them at our ARP Church (we do not sing the three-fold Amen).


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## Marrow Man

My wife and I briefly attended a PCA church in which the doxology was sung in a rather unique manner (one which wasn't exactly mindless repitition). This church didn't use the Old Hundredth tune but Lasst Uns Er*freu*en. When the doxology started (and it was right after the collection), everyone in the congregation raised their hands. Well, not _everyone_, but probably 90%.


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## DMcFadden

I was interim pastor at a Baptist church in Pasadena (fairly "traditional" for Baptists) for about a year and one half. While other SoCal Baptists were sporting a "liturgy" of "praise & worship" or 100 decibel rock, this congregation was firmly rooted in the organ and a weekly singing of the _Doxology_ following the offering.

On my first Sunday there, Dr. Glen Stassen, Fuller Seminary Ethicist and the son of former Minnesota governor and nine-time Presidential candidate Harold Stassen, bounded up to the platform immediately following the close of the service.

"I take offense at what you did today," Glen opined. Oh, Oh, I thought. My first Sunday and I've already ticked off a Fuller prof!

"What bothered you Dr. Stassen?"

"The Doxology," he replied.

Wow! Dr. Stassen is pretty contemporary and doesn't like singing the song in a ritualized funerial manner either. My hopes were shattered when he explained his complaint.

"The words are offensive," he said, adding, "after all you had us sing:
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow; 
Praise *Him*, all creatures here below; 
Praise *Him *above, ye Heavenly Host; 
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen."

Glen was bothered that we sang a "sexist" song in church. It "marginalizes women and excludes the full complement of the children of God from the common participation in the doxology of praise," he argued.

I have never sung that song since without thinking of Glen.

BTW, I should have noted that friends of mine report that you may not submit a paper for grading at Fuller unless you employ inclusive language. How far they take it, I don't know. Suffice it to say they won't be screening the "First Blast of the Trumpet" or name any new buildings "Knox" any time soon.


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## Roldan

But whatever happened to the RPW, can't do what is not commanded by God. Where in scripture are we to sing the doxology in worship as instructed by God?


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## kalawine

DMcFadden said:


> Glen was bothered that we sang a sexist song in church. It "marginalizes women and excludes the full complement of the children of God from the common participation in the doxology of praise," he argued.



Will I be corrected by the moderators by making such a critical statement as,"Wow! What a nut!"


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## Casey

Roldan said:


> But whatever happened to the RPW, can't do what is not commanded by God. Where in scripture are we to sing the doxology in worship as instructed by God?


God commands that we sing unto his glory psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs -- the doxology fits into this command. Is there something in its content that you find objectionable?


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## DMcFadden

kalawine said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glen was bothered that we sang a sexist song in church. It "marginalizes women and excludes the full complement of the children of God from the common participation in the doxology of praise," he argued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will I be corrected by the moderators by making such a critical statement as,"Wow! What a nut!"
Click to expand...


Glen is an unusual man. His "just peacemaking" theory (which he finds in the Sermon on the Mount) is kindof pacificism light. The man practices what he preaches, is the most ecologically minded person I know, and is indifferent to some conventions of "normal" life (e.g., showing up at a clergy meeting wearing two mismatched shoes).


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## JBaldwin

CaseyBessette said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> But whatever happened to the RPW, can't do what is not commanded by God. Where in scripture are we to sing the doxology in worship as instructed by God?
> 
> 
> 
> God commands that we sing unto his glory psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs -- the doxology fits into this command. Is there something in its content that you find objectionable?
Click to expand...


I had the same thought. Also, the title of the thread says (for non-EPers Only).


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## 21st Century Calvinist

We are not commanded to sing the Doxology as such, but we are to give praise to God. The Doxology and Gloria Patri do this and set forth Trinitarian doctrine in a few lines. 
Whenever we see a tradition I think a good idea is to stop and ask where, when and why that tradition came to be. Look at the Psalms and the epistles and there you will see the psalmist or the Apostle stop and break forth into praise. Oh, that we would be so quick to praise our God.
Today, in the worship service we usually sing it as a response to some particular part of the service. This can lead to some interesting liturgical practices.
At my own church, after the Lord's Supper, we have a responsive spoken psalm of praise, Pastor led prayer and then we are invited to raise our hands as we sing the Doxology (usually a capella), the 3 fold Amen and then receive God's benediction. It really is a beautiful and edifying way to end our Lord's Day morning corporate worship.


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