# Getting a PhD



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

So I noticed recently that alot of seminary professors received their PhD from nonChristian universities.

So it got me thinking, would you work towards your PhD from a Christian seminary or would you go to a secular university?

What are the benefits of one over the other?


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## Marrow Man (Nov 26, 2008)

Boliver, I had a seminary prof counsel me on this. He received his Ph.D. (his specialty is church history) from a state school, but his reason for attending the school was the adviser under which he worked. The man was a Christian, or at least sympathetic to Christianity. His advise to me was that the person under whom you are working makes all the difference in the world (when working on a Ph.D.).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 26, 2008)

I for one wish that Reformed Seminaries would bring back the Th.D and the D.D.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 26, 2008)

It depends upon what you want to do. 

Actually, I used to buy that line. But now here is what I think: A PhD is supposed to be a scholarly degree. And as such you should be able to take that degree and contribute to the body of knowledge on a given subject. Getting your PhD from a Christian school pigeon holes you in such a way that you're not likely to do much contributing to anything scholarly beyond reinforcing the opinions of people who already agree with you. 

If you're going to get a PhD, do it right and get a degree from a school that will give you the requisite pedegree to teach people.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 26, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> It depends upon what you want to do.
> 
> Actually, I used to buy that line. But now here is what I think: A PhD is supposed to be a scholarly degree. And as such you should be able to take that degree and contribute to the body of knowledge on a given subject. Getting your PhD from a Christian school pigeon holes you in such a way that you're not likely to do much contributing to anything scholarly beyond reinforcing the opinions of people who already agree with you.
> 
> If you're going to get a PhD, do it right and get a degree from a school that will give you the requisite pedigree to teach people.



I agree. Actually, the prof I referenced above said sort of the same thing as well. A Ph.D. from a seminary can possibly limit where you teach, whereas a Ph.D. from a secular school can give you a broader base. If you don't ever plan to teach outside a seminary, that might not necessarily be a problem. However, the Ph.D. from the secular school can open up multiple avenues. Of course, you have to be careful if you enter the courts of Babylon, which is why my prof recommended working under someone you know will be sympathetic to Christian concerns.


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## he beholds (Nov 26, 2008)

This thread has been helpful, as my husband is considering whether to attend a public university in the fall for his Ph.D. He thinks that he'd like to teach at a Xian college some day or have something to do with starting xian high schools (possibly on the mission field), so it is good to see that even seminary professors attend public schools.
Thanks!


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## Prufrock (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm doing my PhD at a not-Seminary, mostly for two reasons:
1.) (Not for more freedom. I don't really think that's the best argument. If you really believe the confessions, then an adherence to them shouldn't be an impediment And there is certainly still much room in those environments; it's not that restricted) But rather because there is more variety in _what aspects_ of historical theology you can study. I am specifically interested in using philology to track certain developments and trains of thought in second temple Judaism in order to help understand the transition from second temple Judaism to Christianity. I think that's more easily done at a nonSeminary University.

2.) Cost. It's that simple. Tuition covered, health care provided, big stipend. That's all I need to day.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

What University are you attending if you do not mind me asking?


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## Prufrock (Nov 26, 2008)

That's the question: I'm still waiting on that one. My apps are out for this coming year. Ask me again in just a couple of months.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 26, 2008)

We've discussed this before so there are probably earlier threads on this on the PB.

Seminary PhD programs and University PhD programs are very different animals with different, but sometimes overlapping functions.

A PhD program requires a great lot of resources and most seminaries do not have the resources to support a doctoral research properly. Electronic resources are helping but that's only part of the equation. Because private universities often have large financial endowments and public universities have state funds, they have the ability to acquire the resources (primary and secondary texts, travel to conferences, high quality faculty etc) to support doctoral research.

Generally I tell students that if they expect to compete for a teaching post they need to get a university PhD. If they're thinking of self-improvement or work within an ecclesiastical context, a seminary PhD is fine.

Even the best seminary PhD programs are not as well funded or well supported as a typical university PhD. The academic standards tend to be lower. The "wash out" rate in university PhD programs is much higher than in seminary PhD programs. Many seminaries operate academic doctoral (PhD and ThD) programs and especially "professional" doctoral programs (DMin, PsyD) as sources of revenue not avenues for scholarship. 

I've read few excellent seminary PhD dissertations. They exist but, in my experience, they are the exception rather than the norm. The worst PhD dissertations I've read have been seminary PhDs. I've read some bad university PhD dissertations/theses, but generally there are more checks and balances and higher academic standards in the university. 

One specific example. Stop me if you've heard this one before. A few years ago I served as an external reader for a PhD Diss from a prominent evangelical seminary. This dissertation was interesting and helpful in certain respects but mainly regurgitated the work of other scholars. Further, this student clearly had not mastered either the primary literature (it was clear the student did not read Latin and yet made repeated claims based on translations) or the secondary literature. The latter is a basic step in MA research let alone doctoral research. 

I recommended that the project proceed but that the student probably needed at least two years of further study before submitting. Two weeks later the student was a PhD. Talk about _ex opere operato_! The papists have nothing on some seminaries. This work has since been published, as far as I know, without substantial revision. The argument is not fundamentally wrong but it is problematic, tendentious, and even misleading in important ways. Most importantly, this person wasn't ready and this work would not have passed the review of most university committees. I could point to other, even more egregious, examples.

This doesn't mean that the university system is perfect. Far from it. There is a lot of politics and I've seen good work delayed because of politics not truth or research. Generally, all things being equal, good work will out, even in the university system.

This also does not mean that seminary PhD's are to be shunned. They have a place but we shouldn't think that piety is a replacement for scholarship. An academic doctorate is not a test of piety but of scholarship. It's the church's vocation to measure piety externally. It's the school's job to measure scholarship. Seminary PhDs are for students who wish to continue study but who don't want to become vocational scholars.

There are exceptions. We have two sem PhDs (and one candidate) on our faculty. They did or are doing exceptional work. There was a time, in the first half of the 20th century, when the universities seemed to be closed to religiously conservative scholars but if that was the case, it hasn't been so for about 50 years and certainly not for the last 25 years.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 26, 2008)

Thank you so much Dr. Clark. That was very helpful.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 26, 2008)

Are there any places that still offer a Th.D?


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## Prufrock (Nov 26, 2008)

I've noticed some old-type divinity schools do: Harvard, Duke, etc.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 27, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Are there any places that still offer a Th.D?



The Master's Seminary does. The Doctor of Theology Degree - The Master's Seminary


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## Randall Pederson (Nov 27, 2008)

At the end of the day, it does not matter if someone has a seminary PhD or a university PhD. What matters most is the quality of one's work and whether someone can produce. If someone has a PhD from Harvard but can't seem to publish anything, he will be at a disadvantage over someone who has a PhD from a seminary but is publishing a lot. For example, Keith Stanglin published his Calvin Seminary PhD dissertation with Brill. He did not have trouble finding employment.

Harvard, Duke, Princeton and other universities have Divinity schools (i.e. seminaries), which are all accredited by the same institution (ATS). If one wants to teach in public or secular schools, a university degree is paramount. However, if one's pursuits are religious schools, a seminary degree is fine. Though it should be well noted that seminaries do not have the funding universities have. 

Ideally, I like dual-doctorates (look at Frank A. James, III), seminary and university, which isn't as intimidating as it sounds, if one pursues a doctorate overseas (i.e. dissertation only). Regardless, whether it is a seminary or a university PhD, one's doctoral adviser is crucial. There is much stigma about religious education in the academy. 

I should also add that I have seen some poor dissertations from such prestigious universities as Cambridge, Oxford, and John Hopkins. A university degree does not necessarily equate to quality work. In Antebellum America, the divinity schools ruled the intellectual atmosphere. 

As some have said, a PhD is a PhD. The story that Dr. Clark referred to above is a sad depiction of how too many seminaries operate their PhD programs. I know Westminster _used_ to be this way, but I am hopeful that things are changing, and that divinity-school PhDs will make a comeback. I know Lutheran Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, has an impressive PhD program. Those seminaries who offer PhDs too easily should do academia a favor and shut down their PhD programs.

I would be much more comfortable with getting a university PhD in history, as I don't think there is a distinctive _Christian_ approach to history; history is history. When it comes to biblical interpretation and source criticism, I have seen many students get their university PhD only to return with a new-found excitement for all the ways Scripture is fallible and errant. Seminaries have often become cesspools of unbelief because of ill-advised university PhDs.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 27, 2008)

Randall Pederson said:


> At the end of the day, it does not matter if someone has a seminary PhD or a university PhD. What matters most is the quality of one's work and whether someone can produce.



Unfortunately, I think you're woefully naive about how the world works.


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## Randall Pederson (Nov 27, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> Randall Pederson said:
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> 
> > At the end of the day, it does not matter if someone has a seminary PhD or a university PhD. What matters most is the quality of one's work and whether someone can produce.
> ...



It was actually Richard A. Muller who told me that. He must be 'woefully naive' too. I guarantee you, someone with a seminary PhD who has published with Brill will find an easier time finding employment than a Harvard PhD who can't get published and can't teach.


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## cbryant (Nov 27, 2008)

The decision on the where to get a doctorate from is a function of the why to get a doctorate. If you're motivation is solely to get the credentials to teach in a seminary or college or wherever or to just have the credentials in general then I would say that type of motivation will not keep you going when the going gets tough in the program regardless if it is from a Seminary/Divinity school or secular university. Also, your research interests should dictate more where you get your doctorate than the concern to credibility in the secular world though I know this is not always the case. Just my


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## Randall Pederson (Nov 27, 2008)

cbryant said:


> The decision on the where to get a doctorate from is a function of the why to get a doctorate. If you're motivation is solely to get the credentials to teach in a seminary or college or wherever or to just have the credentials in general then I would say that type of motivation will not keep you going when the going gets tough in the program regardless if it is from a Seminary/Divinity school or secular university. Also, your research interests should dictate more where you get your doctorate than the concern to credibility in the secular world though I know this is not always the case. Just my



I agree. Well said. I have had much correspondence with secular scholars (at least in the church history field) and the tides seem to be changing. As Dr. Clark mentioned above, they are more willing to work with evangelical conservatives than before, but I think this is even moving beyond that. There are many opportunities opening up to graduate students, seminary or otherwise, in the ASCH, which were before impossible.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 27, 2008)

Randall Pederson said:


> SolaScriptura said:
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> > Randall Pederson said:
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In a sense, both are right. What should matter most is the quality of the work. In the case of Richard's PhD program, it's one of the best programs available. Because of the Meeter Center and because of Richard's presence, Calvin has a terrific PhD program. 

At the same time there is a lot of bias against seminary PhDs because so many of them are so poor. I knew a department chairman who had a policy, "We don't hire seminary PhDs." At the same time, we've hired seminary PhDs who've done excellent work. 

What should matter is the work. Many seminaries are not capable of supporting doctoral level research and some universities do a poor job of tutoring/mentoring doctoral students. Not every university is a good research institution. 

The points I made in the earlier post were axioms meant to be taken as general rules. Calvin's PhD program is an exception, in certain respects. I don't know what their track record is for getting graduates hired. We've done our part by hiring one! We've sent at least one of our MA grads to the Calvin PhD program. We have another MA grad in the WTS/P PhD program. Most of our MA grads, who go on for doctoral work, go into university PhD programs.

Where ever one goes, who ever wrote about motivation is correct. One must have a strong internal sense of purpose in order to finish. Getting one's "ticket punched" probably wont' do it. About 2-3 years into the program one comes to think one made a grave mistake, are wasting time and money, and at that point many usually quit. It's very lonely work. After a while there's no one to talk to about the specifics because, often, even one's advisor doesn't always know enough to help. Then there's the possibility that about 2 weeks from completing one's dissertation another dissertation appears on exactly the same topic, making the same argument. About then it's wise to stay away from open windows on the 3rd floor.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 30, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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> > Are there any places that still offer a Th.D?
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Thanks


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## ReformedChapin (Nov 30, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Pilgrim said:
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Does anyone know if one must hold to dispenstionalism and/or premill in order to enter an MDIV program or any other degree at Masters Seminary?


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 30, 2008)

MacArthur has been quoted as saying something along the lines that "every self respecting Christian is a dispensationalist." So if you go to Masters and are not a Dispensational, you are really going against the flow.


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## ReformedChapin (Nov 30, 2008)

Chaplainintraining said:


> MacArthur has been quoted as saying something along the lines that "every self respecting Christian is a dispensationalist." So if you go to Masters and are not a Dispensational, you are really going against the flow.



It was something along the lines that every self respecting calvinist should be Dispensational. He said it in the Shepards Conference. That's why I'm trying to figure out if it's necessery or not.


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## Randall Pederson (Nov 30, 2008)

SoliDeoGloria said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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> > Pilgrim said:
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I have a close friend who earned two degrees at Master's and he is not dispensational in the least, so I don't think you have to hold to the teaching though you will probably hear a lot about it while you are there.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 30, 2008)

SoliDeoGloria said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > MacArthur has been quoted as saying something along the lines that "every self respecting Christian is a dispensationalist." So if you go to Masters and are not a Dispensational, you are really going against the flow.
> ...




Well it seems that you know the quote better than I.


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## ReformedChapin (Dec 3, 2008)

Randall Pederson said:


> SoliDeoGloria said:
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> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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I see. Thank you. I live in south california and I'm considering either WSC or Masters Seminary.


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## Ivan (Dec 3, 2008)

SoliDeoGloria said:


> I'm considering either WSC or Masters Seminary.



Being Presbyterian, why wouldn't you go to WSC?


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## ReformedChapin (Dec 3, 2008)

Ivan said:


> SoliDeoGloria said:
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> > I'm considering either WSC or Masters Seminary.
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Sorry I really need to update my Profile.


I would preffer WSC but it's farther away from me than Masters. Not to mention right now I am trying to find a local Presbyterian church and I'm currently attending a non-denominational church.


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## Marrow Man (Dec 3, 2008)

I have a question along these lines. Does anyone know anything about "uncredited" distance doctoral programs such as from Whitefield Seminary or Reformation International Theological Seminary and how good (and worth it) those particular programs would be?


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## Ivan (Dec 3, 2008)

SoliDeoGloria said:


> Ivan said:
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Masters can be a good choice depending on your need. It's one I'd consider under certain circumstances.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 3, 2008)

> I have a question along these lines. Does anyone know anything about "uncredited" distance doctoral programs such as from Whitefield Seminary or Reformation International Theological Seminary and how good (and worth it) those particular programs would be?




It all depends on one's goals. 

What do you want to get from the degree?


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## ReformedChapin (Dec 3, 2008)

Ivan said:


> SoliDeoGloria said:
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> > Ivan said:
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I would like to eventually teach in a seminary or secular school and yes I know that means a PHD. I have tried to see the carrer paths of seminary professors, usually its MDiv but some do MA's I'm thinking about the MA route.


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## Marrow Man (Dec 3, 2008)

Chaplainintraining said:


> > I have a question along these lines. Does anyone know anything about "uncredited" distance doctoral programs such as from Whitefield Seminary or Reformation International Theological Seminary and how good (and worth it) those particular programs would be?
> 
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> 
> ...



Primarily, to improve my own scholarship as a pastor while doing something beneficial for the church (locally and broadly). I would like to be able to teach on some level someday, but I understand my priorities are with pastoral ministry. And, to be quite frank, I have no background in research languages and at 41 I'm just a wee bit too old to start down that road right now.


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## Ivan (Dec 3, 2008)

Marrow Man said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > > I have a question along these lines. Does anyone know anything about "uncredited" distance doctoral programs such as from Whitefield Seminary or Reformation International Theological Seminary and how good (and worth it) those particular programs would be?
> ...



I think Whitefield could be a good choice. There are others here that can give you a good evaluation of the seminary. I think for your goals it could work as long as you work it. Distance Education can be tough if you're not self-motivated.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 4, 2008)

I agree with Ivan. If you are looking for a personal improvement to become a better pastor, then a place like Whitefield or Greenville's distance program can be just what the doctor ordered.

I know some on the board prefer classroom vs. distance ed, but I doubt anyone would argue against distance ed. being better than nothing.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 4, 2008)

Does Greenville have a Ph.D program?


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 4, 2008)

My bad, I was thinking MDiv, not doctoral. Greenville does not have a doctoral program.


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