# Church "Gimmicks" (for lack of a better word)



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

is it ok to make a church geared toward a crowd? ive seen heavy metal churches and things for people that are fans of hard rock and metal to feel accepted, 

so is it ok to have some sorta "gimmick" (for lack of a better word) to appeal to a certain group that may or may not stereotypically be typically christian? And still stay true to biblical doctrine and the real gospel?

I love reptiles, I have a collection of snakes and lizards and it is a big hobby of mine, While being in the hobby, joining reptile forums and things, ive noticed it's mostly very anti christian. Would it be ok to have a church that may have some kinda reptile "theme" (i dont mean tie reptiles into EVERY sermon of course,....) 

This question is for any "gimmick"


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

No, it is against the regulative principle, and it tends to alienate other people who aren't into the gimmick. My dad and I have had a similar argument over whether a church may be geared toward a particular age. He thinks it's okay to have a "college student church." I, the college student, think the church is supposed to be composed of the believers in the area of all ages, races, etc. A church's common bond is faith in Christ and the gospel, in spite of differences of taste and other differences. Thus, these tastes and such should not be the basis of the church.

The gimmick idea sounds cool at first, but trust me, it isn't healthy for the church in the long run. It's a distraction. Stay true to the commanded things, and you will find it not a burden, but a blessing in time.


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

what about maybe a side ministry your church is affiliated with?


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

MikelKenn89 said:


> what about maybe a side ministry your church is affiliated with?


 
I guess I would need further information on what you mean, or perhaps an example of what such a side ministry would look like. Believers in a church may have a common interest, certainly. For instance, it is okay for some of the men in the church to play golf on Monday nights. But that is not a worship service, or a narrowing of the church's overall purpose. It's just a common interest some of them share. However, in worship, we may only do what God has commanded. And ultimately, I think that is good for us. It keeps us focused on the things that really matter - the reading and preaching of the Word, the sacraments, corporate prayer, singing, etc. Reptile activities in a worship service (if that's what you had in mind) would distract from that, I think. And these side things (like golf in my example) should not be the basis of a church. A church is an organic group, consisting of many diverse kinds of people, all with the common bond of faith and a common baptism.


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

I was just trying to find a way to communicate that reptiles are not like satanic and evil and wondering if some sorta "ministry" (though it may not technically be that) could accomplish that, again this could be for any hobby, I just chose to mention reptiles because its something I love and I've noticed alot of people are not christians in the hobby, is there any way at all i can integrade outreach to that community,


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

MikelKenn89 said:


> I was just trying to find a way to communicate that reptiles are not like satanic and evil and wondering if some sorta "ministry" (though it may not technically be that) could accomplish that, again this could be for any hobby, I just chose to mention reptiles because its something I love and I've noticed alot of people are not christians in the hobby, is there any way at all i can integrade outreach to that community,


 
If there is an interest among the members of a church to participate in that hobby (Forgive my ignorance because I know absolutely nothing about it), then there is no reason those members can't participate in that hobby together. I don't know about a "reptile ministry," though, and certainly it shouldn't be a theme of the church. However, as a hobby members share, and maybe reach out to unbelievers through, sure, sounds interesting.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this hobby of yours. What do "reptile people" do?


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

we go to reptile shows and buy snakes (and the christian ones try to keep from having an addiction  haha jk ) and we keep them, and they're like pets, and sometimes we breed em


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

MikelKenn89 said:


> we go to reptile shows and buy snakes (and the christian ones try to keep from having an addiction  haha jk ) and we keep them, and they're like pets, and sometimes we breed em


 
That sounds like...um...fun. And perfectly fine for some church members to get together and do as a hobby. I just wouldn't base a church on it. But it sounds like a good outside-of-worship thing. Maybe you could post pics of your snakes sometime.

Edit: Oh, and see the nickname-thing under my username to know what I think of snakes.


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

i need to do a study on the belief that snakes are of the devil and christians shouldnt keep them because satan came as a serpent, i know it doesnt hold water (common sense, god created all things, including all animals) but i dont really have scriptural knowledge of where it is in the bible to debunk that thought.....

that being said i am definately not gonna promote crazy snake handling churches haha


----------



## Berean (Jan 15, 2010)

austinww said:


> Edit: Oh, and see the nickname-thing under my username to know what I think of snakes.



Austin did you lose your classic eek? Cheerios don't count. Or did you decide to go back to being low-key and sophisticated? 

------added-------



MikelKenn89 said:


> i need to do a study on the belief that snakes are of the devil ...



I think Josh holds to that also.


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

MikelKenn89, (BTW is that your birth year? If so, we're very close in age)

I've never heard of the belief that Christians shouldn't have snakes. I think more people are just afraid of them or creeped out by them, rather than having a religious belief against owning them.



Berean said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: Oh, and see the nickname-thing under my username to know what I think of snakes.
> ...



Of course I still have him. But I save him for special occasions.


----------



## ewenlin (Jan 15, 2010)

I think you can have all sorts of gimmicks and not have a church. You can also have nothing but a brick building yet not have a church. Unless those true marks of a church are present (proper admin of sacraments, discipline, preaching, etc), a "church" is not a church. There are church buildings that bear much resemblance to your reptiles idea, though of course theirs is an unavoidable circumstance. I am of course talking about those in the third world. Don't forget those nice ol' cathedrals/churches that are nothing of what they once were after years of tradition. Tradition is good by the way but that's not my point. 

My point is this, none of the gimmicks will work because only the gospel can save. You want to have a reptile themed church? Honestly I don't know how that can be done, I suppose it could somehow without violating the RPW. But you'll be wasting your time if the true gospel is not clearly preached.

I have been in churches which are geared towards a certain age group, though it is entirely because of circumstance. The church being on university campus for example. It's a proper church (not a student fellowship etc), but because most of its members are college students, most of the "stuff" are geared somewhat towards that. I think that's fine. If a church says they'll only accept a certain group then probably I'll think twice about that church.

Hey post up some pictures of your pet snakes! I've always wanted to get one but wondered about its care.


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

ewenlin said:


> I have been in churches which are geared towards a certain age group, though it is entirely because of circumstance. The church being on university campus for example. It's a proper church (not a student fellowship etc), but because most of its members are college students, most of the "stuff" are geared somewhat towards that. I think that's fine. If a church says they'll only accept a certain group then probably I'll think twice about that church.


 
Sure, a church will reflect its area. It's inevitable there will be churches with a disproportionate number of college students in a college town. Although, I think those students should also seek out godly older men and women to disciple them, but that's another discussion. But my dad was arguing that it's okay for a church plant to say, "Okay, our 'target group' is 20-30yo artists." It is definitely against the RPW for a church to be based on such a theme. That's what I was arguing against. The only 'target group' a church should have is believers and converts, of all ages and ethnicities they can find in the area.

BTW, my grandfather was raised in a snake-handling church.


----------



## ewenlin (Jan 15, 2010)

austinww said:


> ewenlin said:
> 
> 
> > I have been in churches which are geared towards a certain age group, though it is entirely because of circumstance. The church being on university campus for example. It's a proper church (not a student fellowship etc), but because most of its members are college students, most of the "stuff" are geared somewhat towards that. I think that's fine. If a church says they'll only accept a certain group then probably I'll think twice about that church.
> ...


 
I would agree with you though I don't exactly see the RPW being played as much as "why just the 20-30s?" Yes, the only target group should just be sinners. But that's just pretty talk. haha

What's a snake-handling church?


----------



## Curt (Jan 15, 2010)

For most churched folk in America today, preaching the Gospel, straight up, would seem like a gimmick.


----------



## ewenlin (Jan 15, 2010)

What? You mean the pastor's gonna just stand up and talk? No way!

haha


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

ewenlin said:


> What's a snake-handling church?


 
Just imagine the most ridiculous thing it can possibly mean, and there ya go.


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 15, 2010)

austinww said:


> ewenlin said:
> 
> 
> > What's a snake-handling church?
> ...


 
haha basically a snake handling church is a church that....handles snakes in a service, if i remember correctly it's a pentecostal movement where they handle venemous snakes freely and actually allow them to potentially bite them because they believe God will protect them from the venoms harm, or something like that..LOL

i hope these pics are not too big. 









and ewenlin

and as far as care ball pythons are one of the easiest snakes to take care of as it was my very first for when i started, *and is still my only one, due to money issues and other priorities* basically all they need is a hide, some substrate *i use douglas fur bark* and a heating pad, but they can withstand temperture changes pretty well, very hardy species,....

i wouldnt really reccomend a boa for a beginner, large species, could possibly harm or kill you, and should be kept away from small children,. the general rule of large constrictors is one person handling for every 10 foot of snake....

ok topic derailment over LOL


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 15, 2010)

Sweet pics.

The snake-handling movement is holiness in origin, but I think they are Pentecostal too. Holiness was strongly related to Pentecostalism in the beginning of the century, I believe. It is based on this passage:



> Mk. 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> Mk. 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Here is an instance of what Jesus _really_ meant:



> Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
> 
> Acts 28:4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
> 
> ...


----------



## MikelKenn89 (Jan 16, 2010)

oh and yes, that is my birth year lol


----------



## au5t1n (Jan 16, 2010)

MikelKenn89 said:


> oh and yes, that is my birth year lol


 
Well, good, we young PBers must stick together.


----------



## Andres (Jan 16, 2010)

that's really not much more for me to say as Austin has done a fine job of explaining how the worship service should ascribe to the RPW. I will only add this: these churches that gear themselves to going after one group are usually referred to as "seeker churches" because they believe that many people out there might be into God, just not into church. Therefore they devise programs/churches to cater to these groups in hopes of getting them into church. There is only one problem with seeker churches: 



> None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; *no one seeks for God*. - Romans 3:10,11


----------



## Andres (Jan 16, 2010)

austinww said:


> MikelKenn89 said:
> 
> 
> > oh and yes, that is my birth year lol
> ...


 
ya'll turn that music down! oh, and stay off my lawn too!


----------



## Scott1 (Jan 16, 2010)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...


.



> Scripture Proofs
> 
> [1] ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. JER 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. PSA 31:23 O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. PSA 18:3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. PSA 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. JOS 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. MAR 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
> 
> ...


----------



## kvanlaan (Jan 16, 2010)

Sproul and Big Al on the seeker-sensitive movement:
[video=youtube;A2zvqQ1w-Os]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2zvqQ1w-Os[/video]

Nice clip on the same:
[video=youtube;Yb9DF16Fx8k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb9DF16Fx8k[/video]


----------



## Scott1 (Jan 16, 2010)

I also had seen the video section with Dr. Sproul as well.

The basic problem with "seeker sensitive" is something that is wrong with all of us- we imagine ourselves the center of the universe rather than God. We assume worship is about us, salvation is about our choice, justice about our right to decide, and our feelings of the moment are preeminent.

Beginning to understand the sovereignty of God is the antidote.

The regulative principle of worship is an aspect of that- worship, whether individual, family or corporate is as He commands it, not as we imagine.

Now worship is distinguished from many other activities, all of which may in a general sense be part of "worshipping" God, but not the corporate worship God has commanded His creatures- and I think that is in line with answering the original post.


----------



## jrdnoland (Jan 17, 2010)

Scott1 - where was your quote taken from? I'd like to read more about it. (Chapter XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day)


----------



## Scott1 (Jan 17, 2010)

jrdnoland said:


> Scott1 - where was your quote taken from? I'd like to read more about it. (Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day)


 
The quoted section is from the Westminster Confession of Faith.
(Thanks, I added that in the quote heading)

One of the things I've come to understand better since being on Puritan Board is that the sabbath is a substantial part of the regulative principle application to worship.

God has appointed one day in seven for worship as well a commandment to work other days.


----------

