# Can Persons make choices apart from the decree of God?



## TannedIrishman (May 13, 2014)

Hey guys I'm wondering if you could help me out on this. I got into a Facebook discussion on God decreeing evil and yet not sinning. I posited this syllogism:


Regardless of where you land on this issue, I believe the following syllogism still holds:

"i. Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
ii. Nothing that begins to exist, can be its own cause
iii. Therefore if evil began to exist, its cause could not have been evil

We know from scripture both 
a) Evil did not always exist 
b) God is good
c) God has decreed all that comes to pass."

My good Eastern Orthodox friend is now positing some idea of libertarian free will, I believe and God's decrees that I'm thinking on how to answer. It has all got me thinking and it was a good convo. But he has said something here that would like to get opinions on, the whole nature/person claim made here, is it valid? Also about the human nature of Christ. O have yet to respond. Here is how it went from the portion relevant:

Me: My point was that each and every moment that goes by is ontologically contingent on God. Nothing can therefore come to be without God willing it and according scripture He is working out an eternal plan which is being carried out. Therefore I have to conclude that every occurrence is contingent upon God's ordination. This includes that of the Man Christ Jesus who lived a life that was written in stones and scrolls, way before He came not because God learned by looking into the future or because he had to look into some reality called space-time that exists apart from Him, but simply because he decreed it be so. God's knowledge is innate and does not require observation in order to recieve. And since He is the creator of all things, the only thing that can or will occur is that which He wills. Looking into the future for God would be equivalent to deciding what he wants to do. It is in that sense that I say all things non God are contingent. His decree is the basis for it all.

Them: Josué Adido, thank you for your reply. I would respectfully say you seem to now be asserting your point, based on ontologically contingency, to get to personal necessity. You need to demonstrate that in an argument, how ontological contingency (i.e. we exist because God sustains us) = I only do that which is already necessitated. 

As for foreknowledge, given the Trinity is timeless, I don't see how one can say they "peered into the future" , given that would be to suppose the Trinity is in existence. And given space/time does not exist prior to creation (unless you hold to an eternal creation), God does not have to look upon it. These things are already within the mind of God given they do not exist. And one need not have God necessitating all things in order for God to know fully all things in an innate fashion, but if you want to show that, that needs to be argued, not asserted again. 

As for all things happening because God allows it, I hold to such as well. What I see the leap in your thinking, is assuming God's predestining of nature, is equal to the predestining of persons. I exist because God continues to sustain my nature (without which I would cease to be), but given humanity is made in God's image, we have, like God, the freedom of choice. As for evil, if you include evil as a necessary thing, that seems to imply that God necessitates sin to happen. If such, how is that not sinful itself, given human agents (who as Ryan said, their will is simply an effect of God's cause) have no freedom to do other than that which is necessitated upon them?

That is compatiblism through and through. So if I may ask, could Christ choose against his own human nature, given he assumed the post-lapsarian humanity of man?

*he is positing that God can have knowledge of a world without predestining persons. While I'm saying His foreknowledge is on the basis of His decrees*


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## Tirian (May 14, 2014)

Wow, Josh - I'm glad there are some learned folks here that might tackle the detail here. Just thought I'd shout out a "hello" from Australia as it would seem you are new to the board.

In response to your headline question only, I would simply ask how the answer to that will inform the way you, or your Facebook friends will live. As in, how then shall you live? 

Beware of giving the devil a foothold, take every thought captive to Christ and strive not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

God bless you brother,
Matt


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## Pilgrim Standard (May 14, 2014)

TannedIrishman said:


> Therefore if evil began to exist, its cause could not have been evil


I think the problem here is that evil is not a "creation" it is an action. 

WLC Q. 24. 
*What is sin?
A. Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, any law of God, given as a rule to the reasonable creature*


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## Ask Mr. Religion (May 14, 2014)

God has a morally sufficient reason for evil to exist.

Persons cannot choose outside the decree of God for this would imply they are beyond the sovereignty of God and thusly, God is not sovereign. The decree includes all contingencies, including man's choosing according to his greatest inclinations at the time he so chooses. The decree establishes the freedom of the will, for without the decree the freedom would not exist. Some get wrapped around the axle as to exactly how God pulls this off, that is sovereignty and man's responsibility. Seeking to peek behind the curtain when there is no warrant from Scripture is forbidden...and our arrogance.


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## earl40 (May 14, 2014)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> TannedIrishman said:
> 
> 
> > Therefore if evil began to exist, its cause could not have been evil
> ...



This is true...Though the ultimate or primary cause of this action is The Lord.


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## KGP (May 15, 2014)

I personally think that the dual truth of divine sovereignty and human responsibility is not hard to grasp if you understand the true state of the sinner. Difficulty in reconciling these two facts reveals that a persons view of the human condition is too high.

The reason this question will not go away is not because these are difficult. It is because sinful humans cannot naturally accept the biblical appraisal of their estate.

I think the key verse in the Bible for understanding the natural mans estate is in Matthew 25.

v41: "Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!"

Perfect, infinite wisdom deems that sinners be lumped together with Satan himself and the fallen angels at the judgment.

And therein lies the revelation of the true estate of the sinner.

All apart from Christ will be held accountable for a lifetime lived under the curse, a lifetime producing only unbelief and therefore only sin, for whatever is not of faith is sin.

And so as a fallen sinner, God can decree any of the following and be perfectly right and just.

1) you be a wealthy and successful businessman who provides for his family and serves his community.
2) you become a drug runner and die in a gunfight at age 18 after killing 4 rival gang members
3) you get drunk tonight, drive home, and hit a pedestrian and leave him a paraplegic, and go to prison for 8 years.
4) you get hit by a drunk driver tonight and become a paraplegic
5) you form a start up company that experiences explosive growth this year, and you become a multimillionaire.
6) you decide to try online poker for the first time this week and wind up losing your home by Christmas.
7 to 43 Billion) - you name it.

God can restrain you, he can let you go.
He can keep your faults hidden from others or he can expose you to everyone you know.
He can do whatever he wants to you, and he can do it however he wants do to it.


As a fallen race, we have forfeited the right to the suppression of the evil in our own hearts, to the divine restraint of our evil deeds, to any benefit whatsoever. We deserve only to be given over to a perfectly godless existence, which is what Romans 1 is about, which is what every person is in the process of until they are filled with the spirit of Christ and regenerated. It takes on many different forms, but there is always a giving over to one sin or another.

And so in a very real sense, God does not really need to create or decree evil. It is already burning in the hearts of sinners. He need only to withdraw his hand and people will expose themselves for the devils they are. And God is right to do so at any time, for whatever purpose serves him. He's right to expose a murderous heart by withdrawing his hand so that a man kills another and brings upon himself trouble and distress.

When you consider that the evil deed does not merely bring judgment and wrath, and that God both RIGHT and JUST to GIVE YOU OVER COMPLETELY to your own sin and Godlessness, then all of a sudden it is not so hard to believe that there really is nothing God could decree for me that is somehow a violation of my rights, and that I am absolutely responsible for every act I commit before him.

If I wasn't responsible, God's sovereign act of giving over would be meaningless and fail to reveal his wrath.
If God wasn't sovereign, he couldn't give me over absolutely; I could still cling to him by effort or singing more loudly. Again, his wrath would not be revealed because there would be some other power by which his distancing of us from himself into deeper depravity could be reversed.

Without human responsibility, the wrath of a sovereign God could not be properly expressed as such.

Nor could the glorious, merciful, salvific purposes of a sovereign God be displayed through the responsible Son of Man. The glory of Salvation hinges on the perfect unity of Human responsibility and Divine Sovereignty displayed in the Son of God.



I welcome correction or comments on these thoughts.


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