# Messianic Worship question.



## etexas

An aquantance of mine has started to worship in a Jewish-Roots Messianic setting....prior to this he was a member of a local Independant Church with more or less reformed leanings....and yes he is Gentile by heritage...when I bumped into him I asked him about this decision. He told me..."I am worshipping God with God's people the way God wishes." It was strange.....it was a case where I had a million things to say....and nothing.....he has grown his beard almost in Hassidic form, he refues to say Jesus and always says Yeshua. In a written reference to God....he now uses G*d. I really know little of the JR movement...but like I said I find it strange....any idea people? I should add he seem to have walkd away from most "Gentile worship" as he expresses it and is influenced by Haggee(not sure about that spelling).


----------



## Archlute

etexas said:


> An acquaintance of mine has started to worship in a Jewish-Roots Messianic setting....prior to this he was a member of a local Independent Church with more or less reformed leanings....and yes he is Gentile by heritage...when I bumped into him I asked him about this decision. He told me..."I am worshipping God with God's people the way God wishes." It was strange.....it was a case where I had a million things to say....and nothing.....he has grown his beard almost in Hassidic form, he refues to say Jesus and always says Yeshua. In a written reference to God....he now uses G*d. I really know little of the JR movement...but like I said I find it strange....any idea people? I should add he seem to have walkd away from most "Gentile worship" as he expresses it and is influenced by Haggee(not sure about that spelling).



Much of Messianic Christianity has a Judaistic element to it. Notice that they have convinced him that his former "gentile" worship was on some level less acceptable to God (when it is Christ who makes it acceptable in the first place), and that his former Christian acquaintances are somehow a lesser people of God than these Jewish Christians. 

I'll tell you where he's headed. He's headed for true Judaism and a renunciation of Christ. I know of a family who were faithful members of my old Nazarene church for many years, who have now renounced the divinity of Christ, and anything else of their previous Christian faith, and have considered themselves to have become "Jews", even though they are not ethnically Jewish. This is an entire family who knowingly apostatized from Christianity, because they began to think that maybe Messianic Jews had something that other Christians did not (they left the Messianic Jews for actual Judaism, just to clarify).

There are several aggressive Messianic Jewish teachers in the area that they are from, but when you check out their website, they are basically Mosaic law Judaizers.

Bring him to Paul's discussion in the second and third chapters of the Epistle to the Ephesian church, as well as the latter half of Galatians chapter 2, and have him camp out on that for awhile with his questions. Then let him know that you are sorry to hear of his discontent with the unifying, equalizing, and finished work of Jesus Christ.


----------



## etexas

Archlute said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> An acquaintance of mine has started to worship in a Jewish-Roots Messianic setting....prior to this he was a member of a local Independent Church with more or less reformed leanings....and yes he is Gentile by heritage...when I bumped into him I asked him about this decision. He told me..."I am worshipping God with God's people the way God wishes." It was strange.....it was a case where I had a million things to say....and nothing.....he has grown his beard almost in Hassidic form, he refues to say Jesus and always says Yeshua. In a written reference to God....he now uses G*d. I really know little of the JR movement...but like I said I find it strange....any idea people? I should add he seem to have walkd away from most "Gentile worship" as he expresses it and is influenced by Haggee(not sure about that spelling).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much of Messianic Christianity has a Judaistic element to it. Notice that they have convinced him that his former "gentile" worship was on some level less acceptable to God (when it is Christ who makes it acceptable in the first place), and that his former Christian acquaintances are somehow a lesser people of God than these Jewish Christians.
> 
> I'll tell you where he's headed. He's headed for true Judaism and a renunciation of Christ. I know of a family who were faithful members of my old Nazarene church for many years, who have now renounced the divinity of Christ, and anything else of their previous Christian faith, and have considered themselves to have become "Jews", even though they are not ethnically Jewish. This is an entire family who knowingly apostatized from Christianity, because they began to think that maybe Messianic Jews had something that other Christians did not (they left the Messianic Jews for actual Judaism, just to clarify).
> 
> There are several aggressive Messianic Jewish teachers in the area that they are from, but when you check out their website, they are basically Mosaic law Judaizers.
> 
> Bring him to Paul's discussion in the second and third chapters of the Epistle to the Ephesian church, as well as the latter half of Galatians chapter 2, and have him camp out on that for awhile with his questions. Then let him know that you are sorry to hear of his discontent with the unifying, equalizing, and finished work of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Thank you, and you made a point I forgot to note....he does go to a local synagoge as well. And yes, you are rigt on the button he does now view me and some of his old friends as spiritual lessers....he does not say it...but it is implied..strongly. I do fear he heads towards "true" Judaism and aposty.


----------



## Archlute

Keep praying for him, and reminding him of the grace of the Gospel. It is possible that he has never really heard or understood it before in all of its fullness. I will be praying also.


----------



## Poimen

"I am worshipping God with God's people the way God wishes."

Okay. 

God: The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be sure. But He is also God of the Gentiles (by faith) in Christ. See Galatians 3:7. 

God's people: God's people are Christ's people. Paul was rejected by his brothers of the flesh only to be embraced by brothers in faith. See Ephesians 3:1ff 

The way God wishes: Not the old way I hope. See John 4:24 (or the condemnations heaped upon the unbelieving Jews in Hebrews). 

Who was it in the NT that received the most condemnation for their false religion? Jew or Gentile? Reading the Gospels, Galatians and Hebrews show that the Jews had the Gentiles beat. But that doesn't make me want to associate with either group because the Gentiles were pretty nasty themselves. (cf. Romans 1:18ff.)

I think then that we ought to have the mind of Christ: 

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 "For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." cf. 2 Corinthians 3:14-18

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ."


----------



## non dignus

I'm very concerned about the practice of Messianic Christians. My concern is this: they revive the old covenant over and against God's progressive plan of redeeming mankind. In essence, they are moving backward while God is moving forward! 

It really gives me the willies when I hear of Christians participating in Passover Seders and Yom Kippur etc.. (My dispensationalist friend recently asked me what I did for Yom Kippur) OUCH 

I get the willies because when one does these things it is a sacrament declaring that Messiah has not yet come. I can't help but to think that God is EXTREMELY displeased with this nonsense. He gave His dear beloved Son.......!?


----------



## Archlute

My thoughts as well. I have on several occasions been involved in discussion with a particular minister, against whom I have pressed that very question - "why the Seder, when we now have the Lord's own Supper?"


----------



## Me Died Blue

Archlute said:


> I'll tell you where he's headed. He's headed for true Judaism and a renunciation of Christ. I know of a family who were faithful members of my old Nazarene church for many years, who have now renounced the divinity of Christ, and anything else of their previous Christian faith, and have considered themselves to have become "Jews", even though they are not ethnically Jewish. This is an entire family who knowingly apostatized from Christianity, because they began to think that maybe Messianic Jews had something that other Christians did not (they left the Messianic Jews for actual Judaism, just to clarify).
> 
> There are several aggressive Messianic Jewish teachers in the area that they are from, but when you check out their website, they are basically Mosaic law Judaizers.



Adam, this reminds me of a very similar situation at the Assemblies of God church in which I was raised. There was a class on the Jewish roots of Christianity, and it wasn't a one-time class, but continued within all the seasonal Sunday-school rotations, and simply always moved through new material and emphases year after year. Once while I was in youth group, I checked it out for a period of a few months, at the recommendation of two other high-school-aged guys and an older man in the church. Both of the other guys I knew had become really enthralled with it, to the point that one of them refused to eat pork, and even brought a Jewish prayer shawl to some youth group worship services, and got upset whenever anyone touched it. Both of them (as well as many others in the class) observed many Jewish holidays as well. So I've definitely seen firsthand how people can go off the deep end with this and come to have a very unhealthy and unbiblical view of spirituality. But I'm also still in-touch with both of those friends, and fortunately they have continued the past several years to confess a central faith in Christ, and worship at a Christian church.

Not so with everyone, however. The class was taught by a woman whose most outspoken passion in any part or function of the church was "recovering" the Jewish "roots" of Christianity. At one public church luncheon when one part of it was to acknowledge the service and dedication that two very elderly women (who had been in the class at one time) had made to the congregation over the years, the woman who taught the class gave a brief word on her experience interacting with them when they had been in her class, and she mentioned how the two women now knew that "Jesus is not the _alpha_ and _omega_, but that He's truly the _aleph_ and the _tav_," whatever actual meaning a vague statement like that is supposed to have. But anyway, on to the story's climax. During one of the classes on which I had sat in, the teacher told us about one man she had "discipled" who did in fact end up explicitly rejecting Christ and fully embracing orthodox Judaism. Of course she explained to us that she strongly disagreed with his decision and had strongly discouraged him from it; but the results speak for themselves. The man's decision was simply nothing more or less than the consistent, logical end of everything he had been learning from her about the nature of things like the Church and spirituality, issues which in turn have a key, organic relation to the person and doctrine of Christ Himself; hence the man's rejection of the central pillar and thus entirety of the Christian faith. Furthermore, that being the truly consistent, logical seems to me to only be corroborated by the tendencies and practices of the two friends I mentioned above; while I presume their true conversion because of their continued profession and the fruit of the spirit in their lives, I thank God that that is _in spite of_ their sympathies toward the quasi-Jewish teachings and mindset, and that their converted minds and hearts alone keep them from taking it to its most logically and consistently applied form.

So Max, I would simply follow the advice Adam gave, and the emphases Daniel made: Press the Scriptures that most directly expound the Gospel and deal with Christ; and continually pray for God to use them to either regenerate and convert your acquaintance or else keep him from a temporary backslide.


----------



## clstamper

non dignus said:


> I'm very concerned about the practice of Messianic Christians. My concern is this: they revive the old covenant over and against God's progressive plan of redeeming mankind. In essence, they are moving backward while God is moving forward!



Or sideways. They often throw in elements of Judaism that showed up _after_ the time of Christ. It is dispensationalism taken to its logical extreme.


----------



## calgal

clstamper said:


> non dignus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very concerned about the practice of Messianic Christians. My concern is this: they revive the old covenant over and against God's progressive plan of redeeming mankind. In essence, they are moving backward while God is moving forward!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or sideways. They often throw in elements of Judaism that showed up _after_ the time of Christ. It is dispensationalism taken to its logical extreme.
Click to expand...


I have had discussions with the "messianic Jews" and they tend to have the following elements:

1. I am a "race traitor" 'cause I have the nerve to worship with Christians not a bunch of poseurs and wanna be "pseudo Jews." FYI Max and all these folks are not exactly loved by the local (historical) Jewish community. They are also NOT adhering to the OT since the Talmud which the messianics love to use was not written and compiled till the middle ages. 

2. They have the "real truth and all us Christians are Constantine's followers." 

From my POV (raised sort of Jewish/atheist, did the Hebrew school thing and look where I ended up..... ), their "real truth" looks a lot like Chabad. Chabad's roots would be in the early 1700's NOT the first century AD.


----------



## etexas

non dignus said:


> I'm very concerned about the practice of Messianic Christians. My concern is this: they revive the old covenant over and against God's progressive plan of redeeming mankind. In essence, they are moving backward while God is moving forward!
> 
> It really gives me the willies when I hear of Christians participating in Passover Seders and Yom Kippur etc.. (My dispensationalist friend recently asked me what I did for Yom Kippur) OUCH
> 
> I get the willies because when one does these things it is a sacrament declaring that Messiah has not yet come. I can't help but to think that God is EXTREMELY displeased with this nonsense. He gave His dear beloved Son.......!?


This is a serious matter and I desire more feedback!!!!!! But I read this post and remembered another thing.....and if it were not so sad it would be sort of funny, this gentleman and his wife used to live about 2 blocks away from Megan and myself. Well (i never had the "fortune" to hear this) but it seems as if on Jewish High Holy Days.....he strides onto the patio and deck, draped in a prayer shawl and scullcap.....and blows a shofar. It seems the main point of contention was not theological! But more a canine focus...yes my PB friends.....he would set all the nearby dogs a "howlin"...he was no too popular in the hood! Anyway..I did not wish to derail my thread! I have some good stuff! Thanks. Would like to here from those who have also come across this. His downfall began undr the influence of some writer "pastor" named Haggee(spelling?)....anyone know of this cat?


----------



## Me Died Blue

etexas said:


> His downfall began undr the influence of some writer "pastor" named Haggee(spelling?)....anyone know of this cat?



John Hagee has been on TBN a lot. I've heard certain portions of his morning radio program, and one of his teachings is essentially that contemporary Jews do not in fact need to believe and follow Christ for their eternal salvation or their remaining life and practice on the earth, since they still have their own covenant with God. (Of course, apart from being hyper-Dispensational, that argument also wrongly assumes that contemporary Judaism - even orthodox - is identical with the true beliefs and practices of Old Testament Jews.)


----------



## etexas

Me Died Blue said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> His downfall began undr the influence of some writer "pastor" named Haggee(spelling?)....anyone know of this cat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Hagee has been on TBN a lot. I've heard certain portions of his morning radio program, and one of his teachings is essentially that contemporary Jews do not in fact need to believe and follow Christ for their eternal salvation or their remaining life and practice on the earth, since they still have their own covenant with God. (Of course, apart from being hyper-Dispensational, that argument also wrongly assumes that contemporary Judaism - even orthodox - is identical with the true beliefs and practices of Old Testament Jews.)
Click to expand...

Thank you, that would explain a lot! If someone feel under this sort of teaching......why not shoot for the "better"covenant?


----------



## tcalbrecht

My experience is that there are far more gentiles "playing the Jew" in these congregations than there are authentic, converts from Judaism. Didn't Paul have something to say in Galatians about gentiles seeking to live in the manner of Jews and placing their souls in peril?

If you can find it, have him read _Judaism Is Not Jewish: A friendly critique of the Messianic Movement_ by Baruch Maoz. Maoz is A Reformed Baptist pastor living in Israel.


----------



## tcalbrecht

etexas said:


> His downfall began undr the influence of some writer "pastor" named Haggee(spelling?)....anyone know of this cat?




John Hagee is heath-and-wealth pastor of a mega church in Texas and the founder of Christians United for Israel, a Christian Zionist organization. Hardcore dispensationalist and they substitute spiritualized Israeli politics for biblical theology.


----------



## tcalbrecht

Other things to watch out for in the messianic movement:

- Very early Jewish followers of Jesus got a raw deal from their gentile brothers. Thus, they tend to avoid the term "Christian".

- "Gentile Christianity" is a bad thing. I.e., Peter and Paul wanted "Christians" to be good orthodox Jews, and the pagan influenced gentiles subverted their plan. 

- Disdain for historic Christianity, esp. the creeds of the Church. Historic doctrines such as the Trinity are minimized or not fully comprehended in an orthodox fashion. Tends to promote forms of modalism, arianism, or some other trinitarian heresy.

- Monolithic view of the law (no concept of moral vs. ceremonial). Tend to be unsure whether Jews needs to continue to follow all the law of Moses.

- Sometimes confuse rabbinic traditions with the Word of God.

- Pursuit of the ceremonial ordinances has the feeling of being works of supererogation.


----------



## clstamper

These guys often take the dispensational Israel/Church dichotomy quite literally. So they believe that Jewish Christians are still under Moses today. Some would even say they are not even Christians because that term only applies to Gentiles. They think they are actually a branch of Judaism that nobody knew exists.


----------



## Davidius

clstamper said:


> non dignus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very concerned about the practice of Messianic Christians. My concern is this: they revive the old covenant over and against God's progressive plan of redeeming mankind. In essence, they are moving backward while God is moving forward!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or sideways. They often throw in elements of Judaism that showed up _after_ the time of Christ. It is dispensationalism taken to its logical extreme.
Click to expand...


I have experienced this as well, having been to two "seders." The point of having the meal was to show how the individual elements "pointed to Christ" but most of what they included wasn't even in the biblical description of the Passover meal. I'm assuming it came from rabbinic tradition.


----------



## etexas

tcalbrecht said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> His downfall began undr the influence of some writer "pastor" named Haggee(spelling?)....anyone know of this cat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Hagee is heath-and-wealth pastor of a mega church in Texas and the founder of Christians United for Israel, a Christian Zionist organization. Hardcore dispensationalist and they substitute spiritualized Israeli politics for biblical theology.
Click to expand...

Did a little more checking on Hagee...while he does not call himself a Messianic...his theology leads people this way....and something a bit ominous...he cares ,it seems almost NOTHING for the plight of Arab Christians! He feels the Jewish nation state should treat them just like "border war" Moslems. I have a real hard time understanding this!


----------



## Blueridge Believer

John Hagee is a HERETIC who teaches dual covenant theology.


----------



## etexas

Blueridge Baptist said:


> John Hagee is a HERETIC who teaches dual covenant theology.


This is what I am gathering about this man! And I do not think the "H" word is too strong. It seems now he has led astray someone I know.


----------



## AV1611

Go through Hebrews with him


----------



## etexas

AV1611 said:


> Go through Hebrews with him


Richard, I am glad you posted...I was thinking about you earlier...is there a Jewish-Roots movement in the UK????


----------



## AV1611

etexas said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go through Hebrews with him
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, I am glad you posted...I was thinking about you earlier...is there a Jewish-Roots movement in the UK????
Click to expand...


Not that I am aware but that does not mean much to be honest. I am not sure what the following are:

Jews For Jesus UK
Welcome to the BMJA website.
The Union of British Messianic Jewish Congregations - Our Purpose


----------



## etexas

AV1611 said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go through Hebrews with him
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, I am glad you posted...I was thinking about you earlier...is there a Jewish-Roots movement in the UK????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not that I am aware but that does not mean much to be honest. I am not sure what the following are:
> 
> Jews For Jesus UK
> Welcome to the BMJA website.
> The Union of British Messianic Jewish Congregations - Our Purpose
Click to expand...

Maybe it is just a problem here in the " Colonies".


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

etexas said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go through Hebrews with him
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, I am glad you posted...I was thinking about you earlier...is there a Jewish-Roots movement in the UK????
Click to expand...


I once heard that there were such people in Manchester, but I am not 100% sure.


----------



## BJClark

Here are some links you may find helpful in understanding whats going on with your friend...


The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/4_1/jewishroots/

The Hebraic Roots Movement

Field Guide: Hebrew Roots Movement

But don't confuse all Messianic Jews as those who lead others down this path..


----------



## VictorBravo

tcalbrecht said:


> My experience is that there are far more gentiles "playing the Jew" in these congregations than there are authentic, converts from Judaism. Didn't Paul have something to say in Galatians about gentiles seeking to live in the manner of Jews and placing their souls in peril?
> 
> If you can find it, have him read _Judaism Is Not Jewish: A friendly critique of the Messianic Movement_ by Baruch Maoz. Maoz is A Reformed Baptist pastor living in Israel.



 I've heard Pastor Maoz preach several times. He is a remarkable man with a remarkable congregation. The majority are converted Israeli Jews, but there are also converts from Eastern Orthodox (mostly Russians), Islam, and Hindi too. He preaches in Hebrew, which is of course the native language, but he has different translators going on in different languages too. 

Reformed preaching in Israel is a fairly rare thing.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Poimen

I wonder if they have claimed any connection to the Ebionites?


----------

