# Do we deserve hell?



## InSlaveryToChrist (Jan 14, 2012)

This is something that popped into my mind last night as I was meditating on my position of peace in Christ: "Do I *still* (being now justified) _deserve_ hell, or is it just that I *would* (if I weren't justified) deserve it? I think the answer is obvious: "I do *not* _deserve_ hell now that I've been justified in Christ."

Out of curiosity, I typed in, "we all deserve hell," to the search panel on PuritanBoard, and guess how many times someone had actually said it! I guess we need to be very careful with our wording in our discussion of this vital matter, lest we dishonor the Atonement of Christ.

What do you think?

EDIT: I also typed in, "we all _would_ deserve hell," and guess how many hits did I get: NONE!


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## py3ak (Jan 14, 2012)

Samuel, I think it depends on how you take "deserve". When we people say we deserve hell, they are usually speaking of what our corruption and sin merit in themselves. Consider what the WCF says in VI.5,6:



> 5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
> 
> 6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.



What we do wrong, as justified people, is really sin; every sin in its own nature brings guilt upon us and deserves misery. There can be no rational doubt that our sinfulness is hell-worthy. It is grace that preserves us from condemnation, and in opposition to some RC theology, not by making us merit something else, but through free forgiveness and acceptance on account of Christ.

However, if you speak of "deserve" in the sense of legal liability, then obviously the satisfaction of Christ eliminates that. And this serves to highlight the remarkable truth that God justifies and dwells among those who are still morally repugnant


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Jan 14, 2012)

py3ak said:


> Samuel, I think it depends on how you take "deserve". When we people say we deserve hell, they are usually speaking of what our corruption and sin merit in themselves. Consider what the WCF says in VI.5,6:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ruben, 
I assume most people would take the sentence "we all deserve hell" to refer to legal liability, rather than the merit of our sin. I've personally never taken people's merit that way. I think it is misleading to refer to one's actions by his person. We should rather say, "All our sins deserve hell." To say, "All our sinful _hearts_ deserve hell," would definitely create confusion in the mind of the hearer.

I'm fine with either way of taking the term 'deserve.' HOWEVER, I'd suggest not to approach people with the presupposition they take it the same way our Reformed confessions do. That's very unlikely!


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## py3ak (Jan 14, 2012)

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> I assume most people would take the sentence "we all deserve hell" to refer to legal liability, rather than the merit of our sin.



I don't think that assumption is warranted.


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## jwithnell (Jan 14, 2012)

> I'd suggest not to approach people with the presupposition they take it the same way our Reformed confessions do. That's very unlikely!


 If we correctly understand reformed theology to be the best representation of what the scripture teaches, that this _should_ be our presupposition. We are not simply another brand among equals.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Jan 14, 2012)

jwithnell said:


> > I'd suggest not to approach people with the presupposition they take it the same way our Reformed confessions do. That's very unlikely!
> 
> 
> If we correctly understand reformed theology to be the best representation of what the scripture teaches, that this _should_ be our presupposition. We are not simply another brand among equals.



That's not my point. I mean that we should be compassionate enough to point out what we're meaning by the term, since most Christians (according to my own observation) take such sentences as "we all deserve hell" to refer to their persons, not merely their sins.


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## Skyler (Jan 14, 2012)

py3ak said:


> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> > I assume most people would take the sentence "we all deserve hell" to refer to legal liability, rather than the merit of our sin.
> ...



I would only understand it that way if the person saying it was espousing a heretical position. I try to assume the most Biblically correct interpretation of someone's statement unless they give me reason to think that they mean it otherwise.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 14, 2012)

Ruben, at #2 (above), answered the question precisely correctly.

In and of myself, even as justified, I deserve the hottest flame of the lowest hell. Paul saw this at the end of his ministry when he denominated himself "the chief of sinners." It is a fundamental confusion on the part of the Christian that refuses to say this. It is only because of free grace that I am justified: it's not only due to nothing in me, but God was not bound to do it. Think of how WLC 71 applies here:

Q. 71. How is justification an act of God's free grace?
A. Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in the behalf of them that are justified; yet inasmuch as God accepteth the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son, imputing his righteousness to them, and requiring nothing of them for their justification but faith, which also is his gift, their justification is to them of free grace.

Now, you might jump in here and say that I have missed or am not answering your question. No, WLC 71 is part of the answer to your question, particularly when you put it together with what Ruben said above (in #2).

You may not be aware of it but, historically (think mid and late 17th c. England), it was a certain kind of hyper-Calvinistic antinomianism that was unable to properly understand sin in the believer, leading to a denial that we are both justified and a sinner, that we need to pray for the forgiveness of sins (don't we already have it if we're justified?), that sin in the believer merits chastening, etc.

All this is to say, it is perfectly proper to say, as a child of God, "I deserve hell," because this is what my sin merits; Christ's active and passive obedience merits eternal life and that is accounted to me: on that basis, because He merits life and I am in Him, I receive what He has merited. But in and of myself, I still merit hell. I can, as a fallen son of Adam, never merit anything else. He can, and does, and He gives it freely to me, so that, in Him, I have everlasting life.

Peace,
Alan


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## Rich Koster (Jan 14, 2012)

On our own merit, we all deserve hell.
However, those who have been justified by Christ, are covered.


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## J. Dean (Jan 14, 2012)

I deserve hell being born in sin and evidencing this by my committal of sins

I will not be seeing hell because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, which God has graciously permitted me to take part in by regeneration of my heart, leading to faith and repentance.

If you mean that apart from the work of Christ I am deserving of hell, yes.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Jan 15, 2012)

Thanks guys! This thread was intended to be about the usage of the term "deserve," rather than disputation over whether we still _truly_ sin or are _truly_ sinners as _justified_ people of God. I understand your concern to stress this, though, since it is vitally important. At the end of the day, I'm fine with either way of using the term "deserve." Personally, though, I'd clarify my own meaning of the term in order to prevent possible confusion.


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## dudley (Jan 15, 2012)

py3ak said:


> Samuel, I think it depends on how you take "deserve". When we people say we deserve hell, they are usually speaking of what our corruption and sin merit in themselves. Consider what the WCF says in VI.5,6:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I say Amen to all that Ruben said and I will the following.As a Roman catholic I often felt that I perhaps deserved hell and that frightened “the hell out of me. It is one of many reasons why I am now a reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian. Roman Catholicism teaches we must merit heaven by cooperation with Gods grace , faith and works. Thus the catholic is always trying to save himself and realizes at heart he cannot save himself. This is why I believe the roman catholic church and her teachings a re inspired by Satan , they lead men to feel they might deserve hell, they despair and eventfully give up that is why the 15 million of the 30 million former roman Catholics like me are disillusioned and have now no affiliation with any faith. I pray for them 15 million like me are now Protestants and by Gods grace will be saved. I believe you do not deserve hell . The only ones who “deserve hell” so to speak are those who defy God and reject his grace , thus they choose hell so to speak. I hope that no one chooses hell . I hope hell has very few souls. 

It is why I renounced entirely every thing that is Roman catholic and divorce myself of the apostate church and the harlot of Satan who is the whore of Babylon. I encourage other Catholics who convert to Protestantism to do the same as I did and as the Reformers did who also were Roman catholic.


The beauty of the Protestant doctrine of Justification 
The following I think is a beautiful statement which demonstrates the beauty and truth of the Protestant doctrine of Justification. I came upon it this week while reading some of Spurgeon's writings.

"It is a faith which produces works which saves us. The works do not save
us. And a faith which does not produce works is a faith that will only
deceive-and cannot lead us into Heaven. "-Volume 60, Sermon #3434 
by CH Spurgeon

Eph. 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. 


Roman Catholicism is a deceit created by Satan and a false church. I was a Roman catholic and I know first hand her deceitful lies. I am convinced that many can be saved if we spread the Good news of salvation to all. 

The beauty and awesomeness of the Protestant doctrine of Justification is that we are eternally secure in Christ because we have contributed nothing towards our redemption.

The Roman catholic view of Justification and the Protestant view is a strong dividing line between being Roman Catholics and being Protestants. 

“Justification is a judicial act of God, in which He declares, on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that all the claims of the law are satisfied with respect to the sinner. It is unique in the application of the work of redemption in that it is a judicial act of God, a declaration respecting the sinner, and not an act or process of renewal, such as regeneration, conversion, and sanctification. While it has respect to the sinner, it does not change his inner life. It does not affect his condition, but his state, and in that respect differs from all the other principal parts of the order of salvation. It involves the forgiveness of sins, and restoration to divine favor.” Louis Berkhof 

Justification is by faith alone.
"The Roman Catholic view of justification [is that] God declares a person to be just when justice (or righteousness) inheres in the person. The person, under divine analysis or scrutiny, is found to be just. God justifies the just. ...By stark and radical contrast the Reformation view of justification is that God declares a person just based upon something [external to them], something not inherent in the person: the imputed righteousness of Christ."
R. C. Sproul

Justification is the process of transforming us from what we were: dead in sin, to what we will be: Like Christ. Justification does not make us good; it imparts Christ’s goodness to us. 

II Cor. 5: 21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God counts the people He has called as righteous by means of their faith and not their works. This does not mean the elect are counted righteous on the basis of their faith. Since faith is itself a gift from God, no one can boast of this as if he has done anything to merit it.

Eph. 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Christians are counted righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness which has been applied to us through the vehicle of faith.

Rom. 3: 21-24 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 

Paul uses a legal term to explain how and why the elect are justified. The Greek word to justify is diakioun. Whenever a Greek verb ends in –oun, it means to treat someone as something. It never means to make someone something. When we stand before God, as we all will some day, we need to recognize that in us, there is nothing which makes us worthy of God’s grace; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 
We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God treats us as righteous because of what Jesus did on the Cross. 

Heb. 9: 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

When we stand before God, as we all will some day, we need to recognize that in us, there is nothing which makes us worthy of God’s grace; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 

We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God treats us as righteous because of what Jesus did on the Cross. 

The beauty and awesomeness of the Protestant doctrine of Justification is that we are eternally secure in Christ because we have contributed nothing towards our redemption.

Don thank you for your comment. I am a Protestant today because I believe completely in the Protestant teaching of Justification.

God counts the people He has called as righteous by means of their faith and not their works. This does not mean the elect are counted righteous on the basis of their faith. Since faith is itself a gift from God, no one can boast of this as if he has done anything to merit it.

The beauty of the Protestant doctrine of Justification 
The following I think is a beautiful statement which demonstrates the beauty and truth of the Protestant doctrine of Justification. I came upon it this week while reading some of Spurgeon's writings.

"It is a faith which produces works which saves us. The works do not save
us. And a faith which does not produce works is a faith that will only
deceive-and cannot lead us into Heaven. "-Volume 60, Sermon #3434 
by CH Spurgeon

Eph. 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. 

I see the one time sacrifice of Christ to pay for our sins and thus through Grace make us righteous not because of anything we have done but by our connection to Christ by receiving Gods amazing grace and professing faith in Christ alone. As a Presbyterian and a Protestant I now believe I am saved; when I was catholic I was always afraid of loosing salvation and could never feel confident as I do now. 

I was mentioning the class we had to a catholic friend when I was becoming a Presbyterian. I said I am saved on faith by grace and justification and our righteousness is not something I merited but a gift of God and by making an affirmation of faith and accepting Christ alone as my savior, I am saved. He had difficulty understanding me and then he ended with…. I hope I can earn heaven. It made me think how fortunate I am to now be a Protestant and understand that I am saved …I now think that was the root of my always being a “doubting Thomas“. I have found a saving Jesus and a loving heavenly Father I never know in the catholic church. I am happy I am now a Presbyterian…Catholicism I now think is a mess of papist rules which transcend and distort the truth of salvation. I now think that is why I left the catholic church…I did not know what it was specifically but I felt a void as a catholic I do not feel that void as a Protestant and a Presbyterian.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 15, 2012)

Could we then say, in answer to the claim by some that even in Hell a person gets a chance to repent, then the truly repentant would admit that they are exactly where they should be? 

AMR


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## reformedjason (Jan 17, 2012)

It is answered in Romans 6:23 , For the wages of sin is death, we all are sinners in our nature. What are wages? It is what we earn. So not only do we deserve it we have earned hell. Christ covers our sin if we are a part of his flock.


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## BrianOrr (Feb 16, 2012)

just a simple yes should be good enough.


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