# RPW & Reformers



## natewood3 (Apr 16, 2007)

I am somewhat new to this subject, although I have been reading some material on it lately. I listened to R. Scott Clark's messages on "Recovering the Reformed Confessions," and he spoke of the regulative principle quite a bit. I think that I am fairly close to being convinced that the RPW is biblical, but I am still trying to get a grasp on the issues that surround it. I have been reading chapters of _Give Praise to God: A Vision for Reforming Worship._ I have read most of it so far, but it has brought up a few questions that I honestly would like to have answered.

Dr. Clark, I would love to see your responses and interactions with this if you have time and see that you can clarify or correct me on these issues (since you are the one who brought all this up in the first place!).

I understand the RPW to mean that we should not practice anything in worship that is not commanded by Scripture, or anything not commanded by Scripture is forbidden.

The chapter by Nick Needham was on "Worship through the Ages." In this chapter, he described the liturgies of different traditions throughout church history. Since Calvin and the Reformed tradition practiced the RPW, I was curious to see what their liturgies included. Something Calvin included, as well as other churches in the Reformed tradition, was the singing or reciting of the Apostles' Creed. How does one reconcile this practice with the RPW? I can understand Luther having this to be a part of his liturgy. However, Needham contends that both Zwingli (AC was recited antiphonally) and Calvin (AC sang by congregation) had the Apostles' Creed as part of their liturgy. Calvin made it a part of both the Strasbourg service and Geneva service, according to Needham. I do not in anyway how one can practice this if you hold to the RPW. Am I misunderstanding the RPW or are the reformers inconsistent on this issue?

The other question I have is how has the Reformed tradition interpreted the two texts in the NT that seemed to advocate "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs"? What ARE "hymns" and "spiritual songs"? How do we know that we should only sing _inspired_ texts in worship? It is not that I disagree with this, but I would like to hear reasons for this.

I am starting Old's chapter on "Calvin's Theology of Worship" in a little while. It may clear up some issues I have raised, but I would still like to see a discussion of these questions. Normally, once I start discussing something it simply raises MORE questions that I have...


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## Davidius (Apr 16, 2007)

I am about to go to sleep so don't have time to post anything. But I just thought I'd say that you can go to the Worship forum and find plenty of threads in which these issues have already been discussed.


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## Me Died Blue (Apr 16, 2007)

Repeatedly throughout Scripture, God's people are commanded to confess their faith, and demonstrated doing so as well. In addition to the multiple references to one's own _external_ confession _of Christ as savior_ (e.g., Rom. 10:9, 2 Cor. 9:13-14, etc.), and the numerous _corporate_ confessions _of the people's sin_ throughout the OT, the following passages give good illustrations of Scripture's commands and illustrations for believers to continually confess _their faith_, as practiced by Calvin and the other Reformers in worship:

-1 Timoth 3:16 "Great indeed, *we* confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

-1 Timothy 6:12 "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession *in the presence of many witnesses*."

-Hebrews 4:14 "Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession."

-Hebrews 10:23-25 "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (Note the specific reference to their *confession of hope* which was mentioned _specifically in-line with an exhortation to practice corporate worship_.)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 16, 2007)

There is indeed a difference of application, generally speaking, concerning the First Reformation (Calvin, Knox, et al.) and the Second Reformation (English, American, Scottish, Dutch Puritans).

William Perkins, Thomas Cartwright and the Westminster Assembly all pointedly rejected (in opposition to Scottish and Continental tradition) the recitation or singing of the Apostles Creed in public worship. They viewed it as Biblical in content but not canonical Scripture. Earlier Reformers often held that the Apostles Creed might indeed be inspired if actually composed by the Apostles, which may account for their inconsistency in including it in public worship. 

Calvin said: "Moreover, that which St. Augustine has said is true, that no one is able to sing things worthy of God except that which he has received from him. Therefore, when we have looked thoroughly, and searched here and there, we shall not find better songs nor more fitting for the purpose, than the Psalms of David, which the Holy Spirit spoke and made through him. And moreover, when we sing them, we are certain that God puts in our mouths these, as if he himself were singing in us to exalt his glory." A consistent application of this principle would rule out the singing of the Apostles Creed, as it is not inspired.

There is a place for the Apostles Creed. The Westminster Assembly instructed it to be appended to its Catechisms. The Directory of Public Worship, which excludes the Apostles Creed, also excludes the recitation or singing of other creeds and confessions, and other liturgical traditions. Corporate confession is indeed required of Christians to show what they believe -- but not in public worship. The Westminster Confession itself teaches that oaths and vows are extraordinary but lawful elements of worship; but there is no indication that the Confession itself was viewed as an oath or a vow. Rather, vows are made to affirm that the Confession is the system of doctrine taught by the Bible. Thus, oaths and vows in public worship are consistent with the RPW; recitation or singing of creeds and confessions are not.

I personally view the Second Reformation as an advance in the area of worship, in accordance with the principle of "semper reformanda," over the First. 



VirginiaHuguenot said:


> I answer, first the place is properly to be understood, not of all teachers, but of the apostles. Secondly, if it be spoken of all teachers the words must be understood with limitation, for thus is the ministerial commission, Teach them to observe all things which I have commanded you. . . . Thus the truth of this rule is manifest, and we must lay it up in our hearts as a treasure, and never suffer ourselves to be deprived of it, for the use of it is great. By it we may discern the profaneness of our times. *All men can say, God must be worshipped. But when it comes to the point, what is the worship wherewith they honor God? Surely, what they list themselves. Some worship God with their good meaning, some with their good dealing, some with the babbling of a few words, as namely, of the Apostles Creed, and Ten Commandments for prayers. This service of God is very common, but alas, it is poor service. For the rule of divine honor is not the will of him that honoreth, but the will of him which is honored.* Secondly, here we learn to detest the service and worship which is performed to God in the Church of Rome. For it contains many parts and points of will-worship, having no warrant from God, either by commandment or promise. . . . For these and many other practices, let them bring forth the Word of God, if they can. They plead for many things, that they have the word of traditions. I answer, that traditions ecclesiastical are no word of God, but the word of man. And traditions which are called apostolical, are either of no moment, or doubtful. For how shall we know certainly, that they were the traditions of the Apostles, considering none hath said so, but some of the Fathers, whose testimonies are not sufficient, because they are subject to error?
> 
> -- William Perkins, _The Workes_, 3 vols. (Cambridge: John Legate, 1608-09), 1:684



I believe that Paul's use of the phrase "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is a direct reference to the Psalter, or Book of Psalms, which utilizes all three of those terms to describe its compositions as found in the Septuagint, as was understood by Greek Christians at Ephesus and Colossae, as well as Christians throughout the ages. 

Psalm Titles / Superscriptions

The 1673 Puritan Preface to the Scottish Metrical Psalter, signed by John Owen, Thomas Manton, Thomas Watson, Thomas Vincent, Matthew Poole, et al.:



> Now though spiritual songs of mere human composure may have their use, yet our devotion is best secured, where the matter and words are of immediately Divine inspiration; and to us David's Psalms seem plainly intended by those terms of Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs, which the Apostle useth, Ephes. 5.19, Col. 3.16.



John McNaugher, A Special Exegesis of Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16

Biblical Interpretation of Eph. 5.19 and Col. 3.16

Also, see Ted Postma, _Psalmody Through the Ages_; John McNaugher, ed., _The Psalms in Worship_; and many of the resources listed in this thread and in the links manager on worship.

I hope this helps. Blessings!


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## R. Scott Clark (Apr 16, 2007)

Hi Nate,

These are good questions.

I can't answer them here. I've just finished ch. 6 of the book _Recovering the Reformed Confession_ which deals with them at some length. So, I would ask for patience. I am talking with a publisher now so we'll see how long it takes......

I do review much literature including Nick's essay. The Reformed practice has not been completely uniform, but our confession is quite clear and the main stream understanding of that confession is pretty consistent.

I'm glad you're thinking about the RPW. That's my main goal, to get folks to ask the sorts of questions you're asking.

rsc


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