# Christ present in preaching?



## Scott (Sep 8, 2005)

Is this a true statement?

"Christ as an objective fact is as really present and active in the preached Word as the minister or our fellow-worshipers by our side."


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## py3ak (Sep 8, 2005)

Dr. Lloyd-Jones thought so --in Iain Murray's biography there is a mention of times where Lloyd-Jones felt like he was standing watching somebody else preach, so powerful was the presence of God.


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## DTK (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Is this a true statement?
> 
> "Christ as an objective fact is as really present and active in the preached Word as the minister or our fellow-worshipers by our side."



Scott,

I gave this link in another thread dealing with the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. But in his comments on the Lord's supper, A. A. Hodge uses an illustration of Whitefield's preaching that I think addresses your question somewhat...

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=52||358

(Be sure to copy and paste the entire URL into your browser)

Blessings,
DTK


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## Arch2k (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Is this a true statement?
> 
> "Christ as an objective fact is as really present and active in the preached Word as the minister or our fellow-worshipers by our side."



Absolutely.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This is the same word that caused creation to leap into existence, it is the same Word that regenerates our hearts and creates us new again, and it is the same Word that continues to sanctify us in preaching.


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## Scott (Sep 8, 2005)

I think so too. And thanks for the link, David, the article is good. 

I think this is an important point at a couple of levels. 

[1] It provides an important basis for understanding the importance of the preached Word. I know many who have the perspective the a sermon is just one educated man (and sometimes not even that) teaching others. Understanding Christ's presence in the preached Word I think elevates the importance quite a bit. 

[2] While I appreciate the emphasis on the sacraments that some schools of thought have today, sometimes members of these schools of thought take shots at the importance of the preached Word. Understanding Christ's presence in the Word should mitigate this kind of thinking. 

Here is a question. Is Christ similarly present in other expositions of the Word, apart from the live preached Word in public worship? For example: [a] the teaching of a discussion group in Sunday School, [-b] teaching over the radio, [c] just two laypeople informally discussing the Word together, [d] a discussion of the Word on a bulletin board.

Of course these things can be valuable, but in what sense, if any, is Christ present in them?

Thanks

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Scott]


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## DTK (Sep 9, 2005)

Scott,

I agree with your sentiments here about the preached word. I just finished reading for the second time, Richard A. Muller, Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, _The Rise and Development of Reformed Orthodoxy, ca. 1520 to ca. 1725: Vol. II, Holy Scripture, The Cognitive Foundation of Theology_, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2003), and he makes your point in several places as expressing the view of the Reformers. One such instance is the quote below... 



> *Richard A. Muller:* It is important that the famous marginal title in the _Second Helvetic Confession_, "œPraedicatio verbi Dei est verbum Dei""”"œthe preaching of the word of God is the word of God""”be understood in the context provided by these distinctions between the eternal Word and the Word written. The statement is typically taken as an indication of the incredibly dynamic character of the Reformers´ doctrine of Scripture and of their existential emphasis on preaching, but it is also clear that it in no way stands over against a fairly strict identification of the text of Scripture as Word of God and, indeed, rests on such an identification. Thus, the previous marginal title reads, "œScriptura verbum Dei est." Bullinger insists that preaching the "œwords" as the Word because he was convinced that the text of Scripture was not merely a witness, but, because of the work of God and the Spirit of God, a form of the Word itself. It was surely not the intention of the confession to claim either that every sermon ought to be regarded as divine Word or that the moment of revelation that produced the words of the text was somehow automatically re-presented in the pulpit through the activity of the clergy: the confession simply indicates the permanent and authoritative relation between the words of the text and the Word of God they convey. Richard A. Muller, Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, _The Rise and Development of Reformed Orthodoxy, ca. 1520 to ca. 1725: Vol. II, Holy Scripture, The Cognitive Foundation of Theology_, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2003), p. 187.


As for your specific questions, perhaps one way to establish a perspective for approaching the answers to each would be to emphasize as a principle _a priori_ the inseparability of the Word and Spirit. Again, Muller notes...


> *Richard A. Muller:* If Calvin refuses to allow Scripture to become a static, rationalizable norm divorced from the living work of the Spirit, he also refuses to let the Spirit be considered as a sole norm of faith apart from the rule of Scripture. The Spirit has a genuine "œteaching office" in the church, as promised by Christ in the Gospel of John, which consists not in "œinventing new and unheard-of revelations, or...forging a new kind of doctrine," but in "œsealing our minds with that very doctrine which is commended by the Gospel." The testimony of the Spirit can only confirm the Gospel. "œHe is the Author of the Scriptures: he cannot vary and differ from himself." The Holy Spirit "œinheres" in the truth of Scripture. Scripture, therefore, cannot be a temporary mode of revelation, nor can it be equated with the killing letter and contrasted with the living Spirit. Calvin denies successive dispensations, one of Word, a second of Spirit. After Pentecost, God "œsent down by the same Spirit by whose power he has dispensed the Word, to complete his work by the efficacious confirmation of the Word." This means that Word and Spirit are joined by a "œmutual bond" to the end that the Word is confirmed by the Spirit and the Spirit "œshows forth his power" when the Word receives its due recognition. Richard A. Muller, _Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, The Rise and Development of Reformed Orthodoxy, ca. 1520 to ca. 1725: Vol. II, Holy Scripture, The Cognitive Foundation of Theology_, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2003), p. 203.


Thus with respect to your questions in general, I think it has to be maintained that Christ is present wherever his word is presented or read, even if the teacher or leader of a discussion group offers a poor interpretation, misrepresentation, or distortion of the same. I think there's a certain sense in which God's people have a built-in protection from false teaching in the work of the Spirit as per 1 John 2 :24-27


> 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us"”eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


Now this does not mean that we are never lead astray by well-meaning, but often mis-guided teachers. But it does mean that God's people will not ultimately be abandoned to false doctrine. I have noted elsewhere...


> The principle of perspicuity does not mean that everything in Scripture is equally clear or that there is nothing difficult to understand. But, it is to say with D. A. Carson that "˜Christians will insist that the sovereign/personal God is a talking God; that he has left a record of his words in Scripture; that we can understand those words truly, if not wholly or flawlessly.´ We need not understand Scripture exhaustively nor infallibly in order to understand it sufficiently. Though the elect are not by any means gifted with the attribute of infallibility, collectively or individually, nonetheless God himself has declared that they will not ultimately be overcome by deception of the most intense nature (Matt. 24:22"“24; Mk. 13:20"“22). Christ himself has declared that his sheep recognize the voice of their shepherd, follow him in obedience, shall never perish, and are so firmly held in his hand that no one can snatch them away (Jn. 10:27"“29). It is a non sequitur to insist that an infallible Bible requires an infallible human interpreter, as though our sovereign God is not capable of making himself sufficiently clear to his creatures. _Holy Scripture, the Ground and Pillar of Our Faith_, Vol. 1 (Battle Ground: Christian Resources, Inc., 2001), P. 198.


There is, to be sure, an inseparability of "Word and Spirit," which I think presupposes the presence of Christ with his word. However, I agree with you that there is something especially true and exceptionally experienced of the presence of Christ in the ministry of the word by God's appointed messenger.

Blessings,
DTK


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## Robin (Sep 9, 2005)

*Publicly Placarding Christ*
Paul's preaching was about how Jesus Christ was the one the OT prophets wrote about - and how God dealt with sins through the death of his Son. Paul repeatedly appeals to the facts of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. He believed that the power of God is manifest through the proclamation of the gospel. Paul's habit is to *prove* (from the OT) and *reason* with the Jews. In Galatians 3, Paul describes preaching as publicly placarding Christ before the "eyes" of his hearers. To preach Christ is to recount the facts of the gospel, to show how Jesus fulfilled the promises of the Old Testament.

This is essential to understand because it points to the whole message of Scripture as being about the person and work of Jesus Christ (hidden in type and shadow in the OT; revealed in the NT.) The great age of joy and salvation that Isaiah (chapter 52) was describing has come to pass in the person of Jesus Christ. 



Robin


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