# Marriage And Divorce Question



## Blueridge Believer (Apr 3, 2007)

I have friend who is divorcing his wife. I've know for some time that they were having problems but had no idea how bad. I think they've been married about 10 years. He tell's me that she is an unbeliever who refuses to give herself to him in the marriage bed. He says that the contention between them is so bad that they hardly speak and haven't slept in the same room for years. He is using scripture out of 1 Cor. 7 about being defrauded by her and that he is not under bondage to her since she is not pleased to dwell with him.
I have counselled him to do nothing untill he has spent a great deal of time with his pastor in one on one counseling. I really feel for him. I hate to see this happen to him but he has so hardened himself to her now that he has just accepted that this is the way it has to be. His final statement to me was,
"I refuse to live this way anymore". What a shame. They have two young boys.
Question for pastors who may read this. What counsel would you give?


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## Romans922 (Apr 3, 2007)

Divorce for a Christian is only allowable because the spouse committed adultery or an unbeliever has separated from you (and wants a divorce).

He is in sin for wanting to leave, He is in sin for his attitude towards his wife (not following Ephesians 5 and the rest of the Biblical passages that guide us in marriage).


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 3, 2007)

Both of you brethren are right and I hold to your postion as well. However, I am seeking a way to relate to this brother. What if you were married to an unbeliever, who told you that she did not love you, refused to share your bed and told you that the only reason she stayed was for the "children"?
I feel sorry for him. I really do. I have told him to be careful because Satan will use this to tempt him into unclean behaviour and to endeavor to make sure that his relationship to the Lord and His Word are cultivated.
I am looking for some way to comfort this brother. He is under a mighty attack.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 3, 2007)

joshua said:


> James, has he been in counsel with his pastor/elders? Comfort in the same manner you would anyone who's undergoing affliction. Sometimes exhort and encourage with Scriptures, sometimes just listen. Most of thw time just hush and 'be' there.




I think I'm at the just hush and be there stage.


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## KMK (Apr 3, 2007)

I think you are going about it the right way, Mr. Farley. From you posts it sounds like he is being prideful. I am always suspicious when someone tells me that they have gone or are going through a 'no fault' divorce. I would make sure as you are counseling him that you never give the tacet impression that you agree with what he is doing and not doing. I might remind him of James 5 and say, "Why haven't you called for the elders?" If divorce is not a big enough issue to bring before our pastors, then what is? Why have pastors at all?


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## ChristianTrader (Apr 3, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Both of you brethren are right and I hold to your postion as well. However, I am seeking a way to relate to this brother. What if you were married to an unbeliever, who told you that she did not love you, refused to share your bed and told you that the only reason she stayed was for the "children"?
> I feel sorry for him. I really do. I have told him to be careful because Satan will use this to tempt him into unclean behaviour and to endeavor to make sure that his relationship to the Lord and His Word are cultivated.
> I am looking for some way to comfort this brother. He is under a mighty attack.



I would tell him to give her the ultimatum, either make this a real marriage (instead of a paper one) or get out.

One can desert a person without physically leaving them and going to live in another location.

Concerning initiating a divorce, this feels a lot like Fort Sumter. "Hey I didn't fire the first shot, I just put all my troops on your border."

CT


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## satz (Apr 3, 2007)

James, 

I hope you do not mind me answering, even though I am not a pastor. If you want me to remove this post I will do so.

I do not write this in an attempt to teach, but this is what I see the bible saying about divorce, and I would be grateful for correction if I am wrong.

Please understand I am primarily writing this for my own learning, to see if I am wrong, and just to suggest another view beside the commonly accepted one. I would not recklessly advise a real life person without much prayer and consideration. Also, I would not immediately assume a person has satisfied the criteria for the principles I am putting forward. Keeping a marriage together is always preferable to divorce, if it is possible.

I do not believe the bible intended in its teaching to set out a fixed number of categories by which divorce may be allowable such that only adultery and abandonment by an unbeliever are allowable reasons for divorce, any more than the bible intended to say in 1 Corinthians 7:5 that prayer and fasting is the one and only allowable reason for a couple to abstain from marital relations, to the exclusion of reasons such as health problems or business trips.

I believe we can infer that Jesus and Paul are teaching that divorce is acceptable when there has been a severe breach in the marriage covenant, with adultery and abandonment being given as examples of such. This is done by the same method of biblical reasoning by which we accept certain works of mercy and necessity are allowable on the Sabbath Day even though the bible does not explicitly list out each and every one of them. It is by this reasoning that Jesus told the Pharisees in Matt 12 that they ought to have realized it was lawful for his disciples to pick grain to eat. It was by this reasoning that David knew it was lawful for him to eat the shewbread meant for the priests even though there was no explicit bible verse saying he could (Matt 12 and Mark 2). This is, from what I can tell, what the Lord Jesus meant when he said “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” (Matt 12:7).There would be no point in requiring a marriage to stay together if it had effectively degenerated to an extent similar to adultery or abandonment just because the specific acts of adultery or abandonment had not occurred. 

Likewise in Mark 2, seemingly about the same incident, Jesus said ‘the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath’ when defending his disciples for picking grain to eat on the Sabbath. I believe we may as readily conclude ‘Marriage was made for man, not man for marriage’. God hates frivolous divorce, but there is no reason to force a marriage to stay together when its purpose has obviously been destroyed. In my very humble opinion, if a marriage has degenerated to such an extent that is similar in effect to adultery or abandonment, forcing the parties to stay together because those specific two acts have not occurred would be the exaltation of sacrifice, or rigid adherence to the letter of the law, above mercy which Jesus rejected.

To sum up, breaking the Sabbath was permitted by Jesus even for reasons not explicitly permitted by scripture, based on the principles of mercy and intent (of the institution of the Sabbath). I believe the same principles may be applied to the question of divorce to justify divorce in cases where neither adultery nor abandonment has occurred, yet the marriage has deteriorated to a point that its purpose is no longer served.

Let me say again I am not saying what I have written necessarily applies to the situation you described. I agree a man should try his best to win back his wife and preserve the marriage, especially if there are children. But it seems to me the bible does say there is a limit.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 3, 2007)

KMK said:


> I think you are going about it the right way, Mr. Farley. From you posts it sounds like he is being prideful. I am always suspicious when someone tells me that they have gone or are going through a 'no fault' divorce. I would make sure as you are counseling him that you never give the tacet impression that you agree with what he is doing and not doing. I might remind him of James 5 and say, "Why haven't you called for the elders?" If divorce is not a big enough issue to bring before our pastors, then what is? Why have pastors at all?




He has talked with his pastor but his wife refuses to go with him. I really don't think he's prideful, but he is extremely depressed. I keep telling him,
above all things Ron, fidelity to the Word of God. No matter how much it hurts now you will be better off in the long run when you know you've been obedient to God's Word in the matter. I keep stressing the sovereignty of God in the matter and that the Lord has the power to change her heart in a moment.


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## Ginny Dohms (Apr 3, 2007)

WCF: XXIV:6. Dissolving the Bond of Marriage

"Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments, unduly to put asunder those whom God hath joined together in marriage; yet nothing but adultery, *or such wilful desertion as can no way be remedied by the church or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage*: wherein a publick and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed, and the persons concerned in it not left to their own wills and discretion in their own case."

I Cor 7:15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart."

The follow-up question in relation to your friend's situation is whether a spouse can be practicing wilful desertion while still living under the same roof as their spouse. 

Some writings on the issue of desertion:

http://2pc.org/media/DOCUMENTS/Marriage_Divorce_Remarriage.pdf

"Some might wonder how irremediable desertion can be accepted as an allowable ground for divorce when Jesus said that only “marital unfaithfulness” was sufficient cause for divorce. Working in the new Gentile environment, Paul further explicated the meaning of porneia when he taught that abandonment, or desertion, was, in effect, a form of marital unfaithfulness – a forsaking of the sexual union in marriage. Paul taught clearly in I Corinthians. 7:5 that marriage partners are not to “deprive each other” for extended periods, except by mutual consent for seasons of prayer. Irremediable desertion entails “sexual immorality,” because it forsakes the physical union."

http://www.rtrc.net/documents/wcf/shaw/wcfrs24.htm

"At verse 11, the apostle plainly declares, that the party who wilfully and obstinately deserted the other, was not at liberty to marry again during the other's life. But at verse 15, he appears to declare that the party who was deserted, after using due means for the return of the party deserting, was free to marry again. And the decision seems just; for by irreclaimable desertion the marriage bond is broken, and the ends for which marriage was appointed are effectually defeated; and it is not reasonable that the innocent party should be denied all relief. Our Confession, accordingly, teaches that not only adultery, but also "such wilful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient for dissolving the bond of marriage;" and the law of Scotland also allows of divorce in case of wilful and irreclaimable desertion. It ought to be observed, however, that even adultery does not, ipso facto, dissolve the bond of marriage, nor may it be dissolved by consent of parties. The violation of the marriage vow only invests the injured party with a right to demand the dissolution of it by the competent authority; and if he chooses to exercise that right, the divorce must be effected "by a public and orderly course of proceeding." 

http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-280.pdf

This PCA link has some thoughts from historical writings.

And there was a previous discussion on this subject on the Puritan Board that may prove helpful.

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=7437


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## Kevin (Apr 3, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> I have friend who is divorcing his wife. I've know for some time that they were having problems but had no idea how bad. I think they've been married about 10 years. He tell's me that she is an unbeliever who refuses to give herself to him in the marriage bed. He says that the contention between them is so bad that they hardly speak and haven't slept in the same room for years. He is using scripture out of 1 Cor. 7 about being defrauded by her and that he is not under bondage to her since she is not pleased to dwell with him.
> I have counselled him to do nothing untill he has spent a great deal of time with his pastor in one on one counseling. I really feel for him. I hate to see this happen to him but he has so hardened himself to her now that he has just accepted that this is the way it has to be. His final statement to me was,
> "I refuse to live this way anymore". What a shame. They have two young boys.
> Question for pastors who may read this. What counsel would you give?




I don't have any advice but I will pray for them (all 4).


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 4, 2007)

I feel for him on that, but I don't think he's got biblical grounds for a divorce.

I do think that he needs to 'Ephesians 5' his wife, regardless of her response. God will bless his faithfulness to the command - either in this life or the next.

It's a bitter road to walk and much MUCH easier said than done.


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## Chris (Apr 4, 2007)

BlackCalvinist said:


> I feel for him on that, but I don't think he's got biblical grounds for a divorce.
> 
> I do think that he needs to 'Ephesians 5' his wife, regardless of her response. God will bless his faithfulness to the command - either in this life or the next.
> 
> It's a bitter road to walk and much MUCH easier said than done.



I agree.

I've never been married. Let me state that up front. 

Having said that, if he married an unbeliever, what he has now is a bit of revelation of the means God intends to use to conform him to the image of the Son. 

(Romans 8:28-29). 

I'd love to have a Godly wife. However, reading threads like this one reminds me that to choose prematurely can be a painful error with lifelong consequences - and I'm thankful for being able to lean on God's providences in such matters.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 4, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> He has talked with his pastor but his wife refuses to go with him. I really don't think he's prideful, but he is extremely depressed. I keep telling him,
> above all things Ron, fidelity to the Word of God. No matter how much it hurts now you will be better off in the long run when you know you've been obedient to God's Word in the matter. I keep stressing the sovereignty of God in the matter and that the Lord has the power to change her heart in a moment.



It sounds like the wife has made up her mind. When a women makes up her mind there is no changing it, unless divine intervention plays apart in changing her mind. I have talked to many guys in this kind of situation and when the wife wants out that tends to be it.. Little do these people realize the road that they are about to journey down. It is good that your friend has a friend like you in his life. The emotional pain that is and will be coming will really do a number on him. The Grieving process isn't much fun and can last for many years to come, each person is different though I know. Once the lawyers get involved then it wil really get to be a living Nightmare. The thing about divorce is that if there are children involved in the picture divorce doesn't fully bring any severance to the relationship. They will have to deal with each other for years to come, ah yes,and that is when all the "games" begin to be played. Hopefully the Lord will save the marriage. Only He can do it. It looks as if the wife is not a believer, or at least her actions aren't reflecting that. It sounds like the wife is not interested in hearing anything biblical, since she doesn't want to talk to the pastor. Right here is the writing on the wall, she doesn't want to go and see the pastor. You will know them by their fruit. I will be


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## AV1611 (Apr 4, 2007)

Surely the focus should not be what justifications are there for him to divorce etc but rather godly counsel towards reconciliation?


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## ChristianTrader (Apr 4, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Surely the focus should not be what justifications are there for him to divorce etc but rather godly counsel towards reconciliation?



That was Paul's focus in 1 Cor. 7, however sometimes others do not want to stay in a marriage and that is why Paul also told the believer to just move on if the unbeliever does not want to stay.

CT


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## smhbbag (Apr 4, 2007)

> I would tell him to give her the ultimatum, either make this a real marriage (instead of a paper one) or get out.
> 
> One can desert a person without physically leaving them and going to live in another location.
> 
> ...



 



> Divorce for a Christian is only allowable because the spouse committed adultery or an unbeliever has separated from you (and wants a divorce).



This is incomplete, as Hermonta noted. If someone has left the marriage bed, essentially cursed and denied their spouse, has not even neighbor-love for them, and almost refuses to speak - that person has abandoned the marriage. The unbeliever has already left, and _has_ sought a divorce, that is, the dissolution of their marriage. Maybe not a divorce on paper - but it is just as real. This man does not have a wife; he has a hostile coworker at their live-in daycare.

With that said, he is also very much in the wrong for the level of his ill-will toward her. My flesh empathizes strongly with that temptation, but it is nonetheless sin. He needs, exactly as many of you have said, a lot of listening, and short, but pointed counsel on his attitudes. Not to mention prayer.

God hates all divorce and the sin that causes it. It harms His name as greatly as any sin I can imagine - to lie about the unity of Christ and the Church in its earthly parallel. Both parties are in sin, and both need to repent...but we need to be accurate about the situation. She has already declared her desire to be unmarried, and has taken every major aspect of marriage away from their relationship. She has left.



> One can desert a person without physically leaving them and going to live in another location.



That pretty much sums it up.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 5, 2007)

smhbbag said:


> This is incomplete, as Hermonta noted. If someone has left the marriage bed, essentially cursed and denied their spouse, has not even neighbor-love for them, and almost refuses to speak - that person has abandoned the marriage. The unbeliever has already left, and _has_ sought a divorce, that is, the dissolution of their marriage. Maybe not a divorce on paper - but it is just as real. This man does not have a wife; he has a hostile coworker at their live-in daycare.
> 
> With that said, he is also very much in the wrong for the level of his ill-will toward her. My flesh empathizes strongly with that temptation, but it is nonetheless sin. He needs, exactly as many of you have said, a lot of listening, and short, but pointed counsel on his attitudes. Not to mention prayer.
> 
> ...



Can I ask a question concerning "desertion", Does the scripture in that verse speak directly to a "physical desertion"? I understand when you guys are talking about a "emotional/mental/spiritual desertion". Is the scripture in that verse that speaks directly about desertion; mean a Physical desertion?


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