# EPC job, PCA in the future



## jjraby

My has gotten a job as the director of Children's Ministries at an EPC church. It has been mentioned in passing that the pastor wants us to join the church. While i am no entirely opposed to join an EPC church. I am a little worried about the future in regards to ordination. as of right now, i am not sure at all if i want to be an EPC minister. My heart is still in the PCA in regards to mindset doctrine and confessional stuff. Should I talk with the pastor about this? I know switching is always possible, especially if i have a call, but i'm sure it would be a hassle. anyway, i was just looking for some input.

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

My Wife has gotten.... sorry about the typo


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## Kevin

uhm, who are you? please add a signature line, we all do it & it helps us know who we are talking to.

Are you a student of theology in the PCA? Are you Under Care? Are you a member of a PCA church?


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## jjraby

Thanks for the response. Sorry i am new here. I just changed my signature so hopefully in the future that will help. I am a Student at RTS jackson and my current membership is in the PCA, I am not under care. I just started this semester so i havent quite gotten there yet. Thanks!


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## raekwon

jjraby said:


> My has gotten a job as the director of Children's Ministries at an EPC church in Brandon. It has been mentioned in passing that the pastor wants us to join the church. While i am no entirely opposed to join an EPC church. I am a little worried about the future in regards to ordination. as of right now, i am not sure at all if i want to be an EPC minister. My heart is still in the PCA in regards to mindset doctrine and confessional stuff. Should I talk with the pastor about this? I know switching is always possible, especially if i have a call, but i'm sure it would be a hassle. anyway, i was just looking for some input.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------
> 
> My Wife has gotten.... sorry about the typo


 
Hi Jeremy,

A few clarifying questions to help us (or at least me) better understand your quandry . . .
- Are you currently members of another church?
- If not, is there another church that you're thinking of pursuing membership in?
- If you join this EPC church, what would stop you from still pursuing ministry in the PCA once you're done w/ seminary?

The way I see it (with the little information I have) is this - if this EPC church where your wife will be working is preaching the Gospel rightly, if you can grow and serve there, and if you have (or can have) good relationships with God's people there, then I can't think of any reason you shouldn't join. You don't have to pursue ordination in the EPC just because you're a member of an EPC church.

Maybe I'm missing something.


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## jjraby

Thanks rae,

Sorry for the spotty details, i wrote it fast. I am currently a member of a PCA church in Memphis. The pastor of the church that my wife has the job at has mentioned he wants us to join. I am not sure what would stop me, as i understand it, ordination requirements for the PCA require you to be a member of a PCA church and under care of a PCA pastor, i could be mistaken of course. This church is full of a lively and Godly people, they are extremely generous and they are a great group. while i may have different views than the pastor in regards to minor theological points, nothing would stop me from joining. From what i have heard, the PCA is quite rigorous when someone from the EPC or PCUSA applies for ordination. How would i go about being under care from a PCA minister when my wife and I are both members of an EPC church and she has a job there? I know it can be done, but maybe someone can tell me what the hurdles would be from being an EPC church member, seeking ordination in the PCA? that is my main question. Again, sorry for the confusion i should have been more detailed.


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## Scott1

In a general sense at least, the EPC is not a reformed denomination.

The PCA is.

That is because reformed churches are "confessional."

There are exceptions and variations particular church to particular church of course, but the presbyterian system is connectional and related. This is important for discipline- both doctrine and morals as well as its confession.

The EPC has a minimalist list of "essentials" up front before the Westminster Standards, which in effect means the whole reformed system of doctrine is "nonessential." This means one does not even have to be "five points" on the doctrines of grace.

In addition, the EPC is self consciously trying to center itself "in the middle" (see esp. questions #1 and #8 http://www.epc.org/about-the-epc/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-epc/#q1)

and as a consequence, is not dealing with major doctrinal issues like ordination of women, and extra biblical special revelation as an ordinary means. This is a formula for confusion, disunity, and lack of accountability.

These are reasons the EPC and PCA do not have high level fraternal relations, e.g. by way of the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC), and I would expect this to affect transfers between the two denominations.

It ought go without saying, but this does not mean there are not Christians in the EPC, including some who knowledgeably would describe themselves as reformed. But the denomination has set itself on a "broadly evangelical" foundation, not a reformed one, and not on a wise foundation in my opinion.

Remember, in reformed theology, the unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement.


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## jjraby

Scott,
Thanks for the reply. How then does the EPC treat the confession and the Westminster shorter and larger catechisms? Their website maintains that they hold to the Westminster confession. Anyway, So what is your advice on future ordination? Should I not join and maintain my membership in the PCA church back home? Where we are right now, not taking the job at the EPC church is not an option, they are being very generous with salary and benefits, so I believe it would be foolish to reject on the grounds of some Minor theological disagreements. It is in the southern presbytery which is by the far the most conservative and most similar to the PCA. They have no women deacons or elders, and I believe the pastor has a different view on the prayer language, which is not a hill to die on. Anyway, some advice on what to do about my membership and future ordination plans would be great. The people of the church are socially and theologically conservative so nothing about them would hinder me from joining apart From my future in the PCA. I know several ministers in the PCA that interned in this particular church, and are ministers in poster PCA churches so I know its not impossible, I'm just wondering what the simplest and the right way to go about this is.


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## Scott1

jjraby said:


> Scott,
> Thanks for the reply. How then does the EPC treat the confession and the Westminster shorter and larger catechisms? Their website maintains that they hold to the Westminster confession. Anyway, So what is your advice on future ordination? Should I not join and maintain my membership in the PCA church back home? Where we are right now, not taking the job at the EPC church is not an option, they are being very generous with salary and benefits, so I believe it would be foolish to reject on the grounds of some Minor theological disagreements. It is in the southern presbytery which is by the far the most conservative and most similar to the PCA. They have no women deacons or elders, and I believe the pastor has a different view on the prayer language, which is not a hill to die on. Anyway, some advice on what to do about my membership and future ordination plans would be great. The people of the church are socially and theologically conservative so nothing about them would hinder me from joining apart From my future in the PCA. I know several ministers in the PCA that interned in this particular church, and are ministers in poster PCA churches so I know its not impossible, I'm just wondering what the simplest and the right way to go about this is.



No one can know God's particular will in these particular circumstances- whether He is calling you to suffer, trust, reform or endure persecution as a teaching elder, only that an exemplary life is required.


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## Steve Curtis

While it is true that the EPC is, as a denomination, more "broadly evangelical" than the PCA, they essentially are, in fact, a confessional denomination. This charge has been raised here before, and if there are specific cases of a TE who is not a five-pointer, I would appreciate the details. I am merely an (informed) layman at an EPC church, having been a member of a PCA church before moving to a city where the PCA does not yet have a presence. I have had the opportunity to sit in on presbytery, and have witnessed the ordination procedure for TE's. In the case I witnessed, at least, the candidates were investigated quite thoroughly with regard to the WCF. Likewise, in my church's installation of RE's, they must testify publically that they adhere to the WCF. Granted, there are denominational debates currently regarding women elders, and that will likely cause a split down the road. But there remain solidly Reformed pastors in the EPC. So, in answer to the OP, I would not let the fact that the sign out front says "EPC" be an automatic cause for rejection. If, as you say, the church in question is a community of "Godly people," and there are no significant points of contention with the pastor, I would see no reason not to join. But, then again, I am not as aware of the PCA's stand on those coming from the EPC as many PBer's are. I just wanted to chime in to offer a feeble defense for a denomination that includes at least one church (mine!) where the Gospel is presented from a firmly Reformed perspective and the Confession is available (for free!) in stacks all around the church.

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Scott1 said:


> The EPC has a minimalist list of "essentials" up front before the Westminster Standards, which in effect means the whole reformed system of doctrine is "nonessential." This means one does not even have to be "five points" on the doctrines of grace.
> 
> In addition, the EPC is self consciously trying to center itself "in the middle" (see esp. questions #1 and #8 Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Frequently Asked Questions About The EPC)



Questions #3 and #5 do explicitly state that the EPC is Reformed in its theology, and believes " in the absolute sovereignty of God and that the highest good is God's glory." Not to say, of course, that there aren't those who say it but don't mean it - but I dare say some of those (to varying degrees) have crept into most Reformed denominations, no? To conclude that the EPC has a list of "essentials" means that Reformed theology is a non-essential is a non sequitur. The following is also on the EPC site: []Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Essentials of Our Faith

Explanatory Statement to "Essentials of Our Faith"

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a confessional statement of orthodox Presbyterianism. The Westminster Confession of Faith is our standard of doctrine as found in Scripture. It is a positive statement of the Reformed Faith. The Westminster Confession of Faith constitutes a system of biblical truth that an officer of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church is required to believe, acknowledging that each individual court has the freedom to allow exceptions which do not infringe upon the system of doctrine in the Westminster Confession of Faith. 

"Essentials of Our Faith" is an irenic statement of historic evangelicalism. The purpose of "Essentials of Our Faith" is to define core beliefs of the Christian Faith. It expresses historic Christian beliefs common to all true believers and churches throughout the world. "Essentials of Our Faith" is not intended to be the exclusive test of orthodoxy for ordination. It is not intended to be used as an explicit standard for minimal core beliefs for candidates, ordination or ministerial examinations. It is not to be construed as a substitute for the Westminster Confession of Faith. 

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and "Essentials of Our Faith" are important documents in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. The Westminster Confession of Faith and "Essentials of Our Faith" are not alternative statements of truth, nor are they competitive statements of truth. They each serve important and harmonious purposes within the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. The Westminster Confession of Faith preserves our commitment to the historic orthodoxy of the Reformed Faith. "Essentials of Our Faith" preserves our commitment to historic evangelicalism


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## Scott1

The problem with having an "Essentials of our Faith" is that every one of those essentials are already in the Westminster Standards.

The Westminster Standards are already an "irenic statement of historic evangelicalism." Their purpose is already to "define core beliefs of the Christian Faith."

If the system of doctrine contained in the Westminster Standards was the confessional basis of unity for the denomination, it would not have a few items pulled out and placed up front in a separate list of essentials in the constitution.

The denomination charters itself on the minimalist "Essentials of our Faith" to which there can be no exception and then implies by its structure the entire rest of the doctrinal system is "nonessentials."

This is said by the denomination (questions #1 and #8 on EPC web site) because they want to position away from reformed, confessional presbyterians on one side and liberal ones on the other. A supposed virtue of being "in the middle."

No doubt the stated intention is to be away from the reformed presbyterian denominations, RPCNA, OPC, PCA and ARP on one side, and away from the PCUSA on the other. (As if there is a biblical, truthful way to be 'lukewarm').

But there is much more in the Westminster Standards, including a Calvinist soteriology, covenant theology, a spiritual view of the Lord's supper, a high view of the church, etc.

Recent case in point as to how this denomination has chosen to ground itself- and it is not a confession reformed basis....
http://www.epc.org/about-the-epc/epnews/epnews-2010-0311/#1

The denomination advises those who do not believe God warrants ordination of women in ecclesiastical authority over men to....
find a different presbytery.

There is no mechanism for unity or discipline when major doctrinal issues like this are avoided.

And of course a denomination stating it is "reformed" does not make it reformed. The PCUSA still promotes itself as that in one sentence (taking away from it in the next).


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## raekwon

It seems to me that the EPC is indeed a confessional denomination in that it requires its officers (but not church members) to subscribe to the Westminster Standards. This is the same as the PCA and many Reformed denominations that we'd consider "reformed". (Others may still disagree.)

Either way, Jeremy -- have you thought about joining this EPC as an "affiliate member"? I took a look at the EPC Book of Order, and there is a provision (Section 6-1C) for those who are "separated geographically from their home church because of educational, military, or other reasons" to be received as "affiliate" members of an EPC church. You would have all of the privileges of church membership (spiritual oversight and care, etc), except the right to vote or to hold office, AND you would maintain full membership in your PCA church in Memphis (thus keeping you qualified to become a candidate for ministry whenever that happens).

Maybe you should talk to the pastor about doing that.


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## Steve Curtis

Did you read the quote from the site? They specifically say that 

"The Westminster Confession of Faith constitutes a system of biblical truth that an officer of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church *is required to believe*, acknowledging that each individual court has the freedom to allow exceptions *which do not infringe upon the system of doctrine* in the Westminster Confession of Faith."

and

"Essentials of Our Faith" is not intended to be the exclusive test of orthodoxy for ordination. It is *not intended to be used as an explicit standard for minimal core beliefs for candidates, ordination or ministerial examinations*. It is *not to be construed as a substitute for the Westminster Confession of Faith*."

I cannot say with certainty, but does the PCUSA (to which you seem to be comparing the EPC) say that?

I would think that, in charity, we should grant that they mean what they say, unless you have specific details to the contrary.

I conceded that the ordination of women is likely to split the denomination - precisely because there are still many, many who disagree with such practices. And your interpretation of their committee report is decidedly biased. What they say is actually just the opposite:

"The primary recommendation in the report provides relief for a congregation that has or would like to call a woman teaching elder located in a presbytery that has voted against women teaching elders. That congregation may transfer from its current presbytery to an adjoining one that does receive women teaching elders."

Thus, they are saying that those who *do* believe God warrants ordination of women in ecclesiastical authority over men to....
find a different presbytery.

I am not sure why you chose to cast it in the light that you did, but it is misleading to do so.

Again, please - I would be most open to hear of a *specific* example where an EPC TE was permitted to take exception to any part of the WCF that infringes upon the system of doctrine contained therein. If you cannot do that, then it would seem prudent and charitable to not make such claims.


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## Scott1

kainos01 said:


> Did you read the quote from the site? They specifically say that
> 
> "The Westminster Confession of Faith constitutes a system of biblical truth that an officer of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church *is required to believe*, acknowledging that each individual court has the freedom to allow exceptions *which do not infringe upon the system of doctrine* in the Westminster Confession of Faith."
> 
> and
> 
> "Essentials of Our Faith" is not intended to be the exclusive test of orthodoxy for ordination. It is *not intended to be used as an explicit standard for minimal core beliefs for candidates, ordination or ministerial examinations*. It is *not to be construed as a substitute for the Westminster Confession of Faith*."
> 
> I think the point has been made- why have an "Essentials of our Faith" up front in the constitution then since the Westminster Standards already cover everything in the "essentials"? What's the distinction?
> 
> I cannot say with certainty, but does the PCUSA (to which you seem to be comparing the EPC) say that?
> 
> The referenced EPC links say they place themselves in the middle of presbyterian continium.
> 
> I would think that, in charity, we should grant that they mean what they say, unless you have specific details to the contrary.
> 
> I conceded that the ordination of women is likely to split the denomination - precisely because there are still many, many who disagree with such practices. And your interpretation of their committee report is decidedly biased. What they say is actually just the opposite:
> 
> "The primary recommendation in the report provides relief for a congregation that has or would like to call a woman teaching elder located in a presbytery that has voted against women teaching elders. That congregation may transfer from its current presbytery to an adjoining one that does receive women teaching elders."
> 
> Thus, they are saying that those who *do* believe God warrants ordination of women in ecclesiastical authority over men to....
> find a different presbytery.
> 
> I am not sure why you chose to cast it in the light that you did, but it is misleading to do so.
> 
> Not at all if you are understanding the point- leave for another presbytery if you do not agree with the doctrine... as there is no confessional basis of unity and doctrine in the denomination.
> 
> Again, please - I would be most open to hear of a *specific* example where an EPC TE was permitted to take exception to any part of the WCF that infringes upon the system of doctrine contained therein. If you cannot do that, then it would seem prudent and charitable to not make such claims.
> 
> An "exception" by its nature infringes upon the system of doctrine.


 


I know this can be difficult truth. It's a broadly evangelical denomination, with some conservative culture, with Christians and some who knowledgeably consider themselves reformed, but in a denomination that wants to be (halfway). We have a lot of that in our generation. 

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Presbyterian_Church_(United_States)



> Ethos
> 
> The EPC has been described as the modern-day version of New School Presbyterianism,[9] while the PCA & the OPC are essentially the modern-day equivalent of Old School Presbyterianism. The way that this is expressed is in the motto of the denomination: "In Essentials, Unity; In Non-Essentials, Liberty; In All Things, Charity. Truth in Love." Functionally, this works out with a three-tiered approach to theological issues. These may be thought of as "A," "B," & "C" issues.
> 
> "A" issues are those which have to do with the "Essentials of Our Faith." This is a summary of those issues which are foundational to Christian faith. In the EPC, there is no allowance for disagreement among church officers (ministers, elders, & deacons) on these issues. Indeed, it is expected that all communicant members will affirm these tenets of the faith.
> 
> "B" issues are those issues which are essential to the Reformed understanding of the faith, such as the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism," Covenant Theology, Presbyterian government, etc. The definition of "B" issues for the EPC is found in the Westminster Confession of Faith[10] & in the Westminster Larger Catechism[11] and Westminster Shorter Catechism.[12] As these issues aren't as foundational as the Essentials of Our Faith, the EPC allows minsters, elders, & deacons to state exceptions to the Westminster Standards, so long as these exceptions do not violate the system of doctrine contained therein. While non-ordained members aren't expected to adhere to the Westminster Standards, it is understood that the teaching position of the EPC is found in the Westminster Standards.
> 
> Finally, "C" issues are those on which Reformed, orthodox Christians can disagree, & which do not violate the system of doctrine of the EPC. As stated above, this would include the issues of women's ordination & the charismatic movement, as well as issues such as eschatology (views on the End times), worship preferences, liturgy, etc.


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## Steve Curtis

Certainly you don't deny the PCA allows exceptions? (I think the Northern California presbytery has a track record in that regard, and I know there is an on-going debate concerning the role of women at Redeemer). If that necessarily infringes on the system of doctrine, do you paint the PCA with the same brush as you do the EPC?

The bottom line is that EPC officers must subscribe to the WCF system of doctrine (or lie and say that they do). No exceptions are allowed with respect to soteriology, covenantalism, sacraments, etc. Granted, they do consider some things to be "non-essential" which you would not (some EPC'ers are not cessationist, for instance, though some are). And it is in this category that they classify women officers. Believe me, I wish that they did not. And, as I have said before, I fear that will cause a schism before too long. But it will be schismatic precisely because there are many who disagree with this practice. And, with those (among whom I number myself), I believe you would find little with which to disagree.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is far too common today for believers/churches/denominations to hold loosely to their system of doctrine - or let loose of it altogether. Yet, sadly, the difference in other denominations is only one of degree.

I do ask again, though, if there are specific examples that you could cite; I am willing to concede that I am wrong. However, in the course of my involvement with the denomination, I have probably had occassion to meet and speak with several dozen elders (TE and RE), and, in every case without exception where the question has come up (and that has been in the majority of them), they have confirmed that they subscribe to the WCF and the system of doctrine contained therein.


I just saw the wikipedia entry. Seriously. That's the authority for your position? The EPC website clearly contradicts that assessment. Again, isn't it proper to extend charity and accept that they mean what they say? Or must we grasp at wiki straws to support an unsubstantiated claim?


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## raekwon

Rule #43 of the Puritan Board - mention the EPC, see the thread turn into a "is the EPC reformed or not" discussion


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## Steve Curtis

raekwon said:


> Rule #43 of the Puritan Board - mention the EPC, see the thread turn into a "is the EPC reformed or not" discussion



Ummm. I think it's # 44


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## jjraby

thanks Rae,

I wont do it again, I can see that is the case. I will now use non desrcript names for denominations.

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raekwon said:


> It seems to me that the EPC is indeed a confessional denomination in that it requires its officers (but not church members) to subscribe to the Westminster Standards. This is the same as the PCA and many Reformed denominations that we'd consider "reformed". (Others may still disagree.)
> 
> Either way, Jeremy -- have you thought about joining this EPC as an "affiliate member"? I took a look at the EPC Book of Order, and there is a provision (Section 6-1C) for those who are "separated geographically from their home church because of educational, military, or other reasons" to be received as "affiliate" members of an EPC church. You would have all of the privileges of church membership (spiritual oversight and care, etc), except the right to vote or to hold office, AND you would maintain full membership in your PCA church in Memphis (thus keeping you qualified to become a candidate for ministry whenever that happens).
> 
> Maybe you should talk to the pastor about doing that.


 
Thanks Rae! i was no aware of this, thank you for looking it up. While i am PCA, i agree with you rae and steve. thanks for your advice and input!


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## Scott1

> *kainos01*
> Certainly you don't deny the PCA allows exceptions? (I think the Northern California presbytery has a track record in that regard, and I know there is an on-going debate concerning the role of women at Redeemer). If that necessarily infringes on the system of doctrine, do you paint the PCA with the same brush as you do the EPC?



Not the same thing at all.

The PCA does not have a list, "Essentials of our Faith" before the Westminster Standards in its constitution because the Standards are the "Essentials." That's because the PCA is intentionally, historically a reformed denomination- one defined by and accountable to its confession of faith, which along with its Book of Church Order are its constitution.



> And, as I have said before, I fear that will cause a schism before too long. But it will be schismatic precisely because there are many who disagree with this practice.



Yes, I think this is likely when the intentional foundation is to avoid settling doctrine, the denomination's confession by deeming major theological doctrine "non-essential" so that the denomination can be "firmly in the middle (of presbyterian denominations)."



> I just saw the wikipedia entry. Seriously. That's the authority for your position? The EPC website clearly contradicts that assessment. Again, isn't it proper to extend charity and accept that they mean what they say? Or must we grasp at wiki straws to support an unsubstantiated claim?



Wikipedia is not a primary source, it is a secondary source but has value when its assertions are documented. It's also "peer reviewed" and "open sourced" which means this could have been re-written or challenged by someone in the EPC. It has been at this site for a long time, apparently without challenge... A, B, C levels... not a reformed, confessional approach.

I've linked to other sources above, check them out.


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## Glenn Ferrell

I spent 16 years as a teaching elder in the EPC. Their Essentials document is “essential” in that they do not allow exceptions to that document, but do require officers to affirm more. Exceptions to the confessional standards may be broader than the PCA (e.g. the EPC has some credo-baptist ordained officers), but some congregations and presbyteries are as conservative or more so than parts of the PCA. 

I’d advise telling the pastor of this particular EP congregation of your intentions to pursue ordination in the PCA or some other NAPARC denomination. Tell him, for this reason you would prefer to maintain your membership in your current PCA congregation for now. As for his advice; make him you ally in your pursuit of ordained ministry. That does not mean your wife might not consider becoming a member of this congregation while you are in Jackson. This EPC pastor nor the session should expect your to compromise your conscience on any particular issue or practice. After all, the EPC represents liberty in non-essentials.

As one who transferred from the EPC to the OPC, I can say it is more difficult to make that transition from a denomination not in NAPARC. It went fairly smooth for me; but then I was always on the conservative and reformed fringes (my wife says I was the “fringe”) of the EPC.


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## Scott1

On EPC media files, Don Fortson, Reformed Theological Seminary:
http://www.epc.org/mediafiles/unity-of-essentials--don-fortson-07-23-09.pdf



> If there’s a phrase that I think characterizes the EPC on the Reformed spectrum of churches, it would be
> “Moderate Calvinism.” We do find ourselves in the middle between more conservative Reformed
> bodies and the wide‐open almost anything goes mainline Reformed churches. On one hand, we
> represent a kinder, gentler Calvinism; on the other hand, we are biblical Calvinists that believe Scripture
> gives us the last word, not culture and not even our heritage.
> 
> Maintaining that middle ground takes some effort. We’ve worked on it for 28 years. We worked
> through the charismatic issue, the women’s issue, our relationship to the Westminster Confession,
> differences over worship and ministry philosophy. We’ve all got strong feelings about these things but
> on the whole the EPC Spirit has been to trust each other, speak well of fellow elders, and show charity in
> attitude and action. We’ve not done it perfectly but we’ve tried awfully hard to live up to our motto: In
> essentials, unity; in non‐essentials, liberty; in all things charity.”



This excerpt further represents the difficulty with the grounding of this denomination.

There is no such thing as "moderate Calvinism" any more than there is "moderate pregnancy."



Why would a denomination want to position itself away from "more conservative Reformed bodies"? What do they even mean by 'conservative'?

This is the code language that somehow adhering to the confession is too strict, the implication we ought have more liberty on its doctrines, not contend ("fight") about doctrine, but just "love" one another. 

Scripture certainly tells us to love one another and it certainly tells us to contend for its truth, and to base our lives on these both.

Many problems here from a confessional reformed point of view:

1) The unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement (its confession)
2) The doctrines (Westminster Confession) are the system of doctrine we confess

This kind of language is typical of what we see in our generation- wanting to have it both ways- to be bound by Scripture, not too much. To believe in God's Sovereignty but to subjectively evaluate it.

The reference to "We worked through.... our relationship with the Confession," illustrates the point- it compares that to other major doctrine (e.g. charismata). How did they "work through"? By avoiding taking a binding, confessional stand. Really they have avoided dealing with the substance and application, proclaiming that somehow to be more spiritual, more like Mr. Calvin.

(I would say this is a misunderstanding of Scripture... and of Mr. Calvin).

It is NOT reformed (confessional) to avoid taking a unified, accountable stand on:

1) "charismatic issues"
Whether special revelation ordinarily comes outside of Scripture through tongues and interpretation

2) "the women's issue"
Whether God created women in creation or ordained in His church for women to be ordained to ecclesiastical authority over men

3) "our relationship to the Westminster Confession"
Whether every statement or proposition contained is inter related, confessed doctrine that summarizes the doctrine of Scripture

4) "differences over worship"
Whether there is a "regulative principle of worship" at all

5) "ministry philosophy"
Whether one does not believe in infant baptism, a high view of the church, etc.


This is exactly why, a request for ordination in the PCA from someone coming out of this background would have to be very, very carefully evaluated.

I'm reminded of a quotation attributed to D.L. Moody,



> Going to church doesn't make one a Christian any more than going into a garage makes one an automobile.



Saying one is "reformed" doesn't make one reformed.

Particularly, when in the next sentences, one places oneself AWAY from the reformed denominations.

My advice would be similar to Glenn's.

Consider your future- seek God and being willing to suffer for it. Start right.


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## jjraby

Thanks, I can this will be a very thin line I will have to walk. The problem with the Jackson area is there are only a certain number of PCA church, most are not big churches and there are only a handful of jobs and internships. When almost every seminary student is PCA, that doesn't leave much. The EPC church is being very generous and to ignore this I think would be to ignore the provisions of God for an economically stressful time. While an ordination exam might be more rigorous, My personal Beliefs are still, and will remain, that if the PCAs. I do wish things were simpler.


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## Scott1

Jeremy,

Just remember, God calls and appoints leaders who would serve particular churches. Have faith!


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## Bookmeister

Jeremy,
Let me throw my 2 cents in here. I am close to this situation in many respects. First I recently transferred my membership from OPC to PCA here in Jackson, not exactly the same, but there are similarities. The ordination procedure in the OPC is much more rigorous than the PCA. In the OPC one must produce a Greek and Hebrew exegesis paper and take Greek and Hebrew exams, this is not true in the PCA. So as I prepare for ordination I am preparing for the OPC exams, if I get called to a PCA church, fine, I will be fully prepared for them.

Second, if this will give you some insight, my wife is also looking for a job so if you all decide against this move let us know. I would have no problem serving the EPC church while here. I would still prepare myself for the OPC exam with the full confidence that God will call me to whatever congregation He wants me to serve in. 

Btw, where do you live? I live in the married on-campus apartments. If you were in summer Greek last year my son is Tate. Talk with you soon, let's do lunch sometime, the porch has cheeseburgers every Wed. and I love them.


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## jjraby

Thanks Alan,

I am in the swanky Off campus town homes, I will definitely prepare for the PCA ordination exam. Thanks for the insight, I will speak with the pastor at the church next time he brings it up. As far as i know, he was in the PCA but his views changed on the gifts for the Spirit so he left. I try to take all the talk about the EPC here with a grain of salt. While i agree with the PCA on probably almost everything, If Christ and the Gospel is being preached in any circle, while i may not agree with how they do it, I am OK with that. At least for now


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## Scott1

jjraby said:


> Thanks Alan,
> 
> I am in the swanky Off campus town homes, I will definitely prepare for the PCA ordination exam. Thanks for the insight, I will speak with the pastor at the church next time he brings it up. As far as i know, he was in the PCA but his views changed on the gifts for the Spirit so he left. I try to take all the talk about the EPC here with a grain of salt. While i agree with the PCA on probably almost everything, If Christ and the Gospel is being preached in any circle, while i may not agree with how they do it, I am OK with that. At least for now


 
The thing to consider though is the seriousness of what you will be asked to vow before God.

In the PCA, as an officer, you will vow that you agree with every statement and proposition of doctrine in the Westminster Standards unless you request, are evaluated and are granted a peer-reviewed exception.

Vows are not idle words. They ask God Himself to witness your contract.

Vows are taken casually in our generation. Some imagine that they can, for example vow to the doctrine and then, a month later change to another denomination that does not hold most of what they vowed to, for reasons of convenience, self interest.

But God takes vows very seriously. That needs especially to be considered by those who are held to the (lifetime) higher standard of office, and particularly those who would presume to teach God's people.


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## jjraby

Scott1 said:


> jjraby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Alan,
> 
> I am in the swanky Off campus town homes, I will definitely prepare for the PCA ordination exam. Thanks for the insight, I will speak with the pastor at the church next time he brings it up. As far as i know, he was in the PCA but his views changed on the gifts for the Spirit so he left. I try to take all the talk about the EPC here with a grain of salt. While i agree with the PCA on probably almost everything, If Christ and the Gospel is being preached in any circle, while i may not agree with how they do it, I am OK with that. At least for now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing to consider though is the seriousness of what you will be asked to vow before God.
> 
> In the PCA, as an officer, you will vow that you agree with every statement and proposition of doctrine in the Westminster Standards unless you request, are evaluated and are granted a peer-reviewed exception.
> 
> Vows are not idle words. They ask God Himself to witness your contract.
> 
> Vows are taken casually in our generation. Some imagine that they can, for example vow to the doctrine and then, a month later change to another denomination that does not hold most of what they vowed to, for reasons of convenience, self interest.
> 
> But God takes vows very seriously. That needs especially to be considered by those who are held to the (lifetime) higher standard of office, and particularly those who would presume to teach God's people.
Click to expand...

 

I agree, this is why i don't want to join the EPC church. But i feel that God is providing for our time here with this job at this church, while my wife and I can worship there, i do not want to join for that reason. I am not in line with the EPC when it comes to the gifts, ordaining women, and so on. But to worship with them as brothers and sisters, i see no problems. just to clarify, Are you saying i should not go to this church and turn down the job?


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## LeeJUk

Jeremy I think it's fairly obvious that God has opened this door for you and you shouldn't let this whole argument over "is the EPC reformed or not?" spoil it for you. I would say go for it, speak to the pastor and explain your situation and he'll probably point you in the way you should go concerning membership and I'm sure that some solution will be brought up. I think the EPC are an amazing bunch of people standing outside the camp of the liberals, to discount them as not reformed and not confessional and therefore lesser and to be avoided is frankly disgusting to me. These are people who seperated from apostasy and really need our support instead of our picking faults, sure there not perfect but neither is the PCA nor any church. In all honesty I thank God they aren't as rigid as the OPC, PCA or the free church continuing. I think it's wonderful they allow some extent of freedom on secondary issues instead of being over bearing and making an idol out of theology.


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## jjraby

LeeJUk said:


> Jeremy I think it's fairly obvious that God has opened this door for you and you shouldn't let this whole argument over "is the EPC reformed or not?" spoil it for you. I would say go for it, speak to the pastor and explain your situation and he'll probably point you in the way you should go concerning membership and I'm sure that some solution will be brought up. I think the EPC are an amazing bunch of people standing outside the camp of the liberals, to discount them as not reformed and not confessional and therefore lesser and to be avoided is frankly disgusting to me. These are people who seperated from apostasy and really need our support instead of our picking faults, sure there not perfect but neither is the PCA nor any church. In all honesty I thank God they aren't as rigid as the OPC, PCA or the free church continuing. I think it's wonderful they allow some extent of freedom on secondary issues instead of being over bearing and making an idol out of theology.


 
Thanks Lee!


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## Scott1

jjraby said:


> My has gotten a job as the director of Children's Ministries at an EPC church. It has been mentioned in passing that the pastor wants us to join the church. While i am no entirely opposed to join an EPC church. I am a little worried about the future in regards to ordination. as of right now, i am not sure at all if i want to be an EPC minister. My heart is still in the PCA in regards to mindset doctrine and confessional stuff. Should I talk with the pastor about this? I know switching is always possible, especially if i have a call, but i'm sure it would be a hassle. anyway, i was just looking for some input.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------
> 
> My Wife has gotten.... sorry about the typo


 

If I'm understanding the facts above correctly, your wife getting a job at an EP church is driving this.

The Christian life has difficulty and suffering, we have to do the right and the seek the right. Men have to lead in this for their families- and they are responsible before God to do so.

Ordinarily, the wife is not the primary breadwinner of the family. "Ordinarily" because there are unusual circumstances where that might be the case, and there are times she might supplement income. But the man is primarily responsible before God in this.

So, the convenience of the wife's employment ought not be determinative.

Second, if I'm appraising your circumstance, you are uncomfortable with the denomination because you know you have doctrinal differences and want to be ordained in another denomination.

Were I seeking ordination and vocation in the PCA or another biblical, reformed denomination, no I would not set an initial course outside of that in the EPC even though there are some fine Christian people there and your wife has a job there.

Order your life to pursue straight on ordination in a biblical reformed denomination, lead your family in this way around that in faith, and ask your church for help if you temporarily need it.

The course you set here and the patterns you establish as a young family can effect you for a lifetime.


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## Archlute

jjraby said:


> LeeJUk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy I think it's fairly obvious that God has opened this door for you and you shouldn't let this whole argument over "is the EPC reformed or not?" spoil it for you. I would say go for it, speak to the pastor and explain your situation and he'll probably point you in the way you should go concerning membership and I'm sure that some solution will be brought up. I think the EPC are an amazing bunch of people standing outside the camp of the liberals, to discount them as not reformed and not confessional and therefore lesser and to be avoided is frankly disgusting to me. These are people who seperated from apostasy and really need our support instead of our picking faults, sure there not perfect but neither is the PCA nor any church. In all honesty I thank God they aren't as rigid as the OPC, PCA or the free church continuing. I think it's wonderful they allow some extent of freedom on secondary issues instead of being over bearing and making an idol out of theology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Lee!
Click to expand...

 
Indeed. Water where you are placed, Jeremy. And God be praised. The EPC has some great people with whom to work.

I know that my last post regarding this issue on another thread was deleted by some anonymous mod, admin, or other, but I will say it again - persons on this board need to stop playing armchair theologian while bashing sister Reformed denominations. I have met many EPC pastors, and I dare say that I have found quite a few whose preaching, pastoral demeanor, and confessional knowledge outstrip much of what I have found in certain sectors of the PCA. Shut it down, men. It's not helping Christ's kingdom one bit.

If this is too much for the admin/mods, and yet certain members are allowed to post their rants against the EPC, then maturity and integrity issues need be addressed amongst yourselves while I calmly remove myself from further participation here. Double standards will not get this board anywhere.

But again, work with your opportunities, Jeremy, and enjoy every place in which Christ gives you opportunity to minister.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Archlute said:


> jjraby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LeeJUk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy I think it's fairly obvious that God has opened this door for you and you shouldn't let this whole argument over "is the EPC reformed or not?" spoil it for you. I would say go for it, speak to the pastor and explain your situation and he'll probably point you in the way you should go concerning membership and I'm sure that some solution will be brought up. I think the EPC are an amazing bunch of people standing outside the camp of the liberals, to discount them as not reformed and not confessional and therefore lesser and to be avoided is frankly disgusting to me. These are people who seperated from apostasy and really need our support instead of our picking faults, sure there not perfect but neither is the PCA nor any church. In all honesty I thank God they aren't as rigid as the OPC, PCA or the free church continuing. I think it's wonderful they allow some extent of freedom on secondary issues instead of being over bearing and making an idol out of theology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Lee!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed. Water where you are placed, Jeremy. And God be praised. The EPC has some great people with whom to work.
> 
> I know that my last post regarding this issue on another thread was deleted by some anonymous mod, admin, or other, but I will say it again - persons on this board need to stop playing armchair theologian while bashing sister Reformed denominations. I have met many EPC pastors, and I dare say that I have found quite a few whose preaching, pastoral demeanor, and confessional knowledge outstrip much of what I have found in certain sectors of the PCA. Shut it down, men. It's not helping Christ's kingdom one bit.
> 
> If this is too much for the admin/mods, and yet certain members are allowed to post their rants against the EPC, then maturity and integrity issues need be addressed amongst yourselves while I calmly remove myself from further participation here. Double standards will not get this board anywhere.
> 
> But again, work with your opportunities, Jeremy, and enjoy every place in which Christ gives you opportunity to minister.
Click to expand...

 
Amen, Amen, and Amen


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## Montanablue

I'd just like to throw it out there that I came to the reformed faith through a girl in the EPC. She gave me a copy of the Westminster Standards and offered to read through them with me so that I could ask her any questions I had. 

Do with that as you will...

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

Edit: ANd when I say she brought me to the reformed faith, what I really mean is to Christ Himself. Though I grew up in the church, I really had no understanding of the nature of God nor a personal relationship with Him.


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## fredtgreco

Archlute said:


> Indeed. Water where you are placed, Jeremy. And God be praised. The EPC has some great people with whom to work.
> 
> I know that my last post regarding this issue on another thread was deleted by some anonymous mod, admin, or other, but I will say it again - persons on this board need to stop playing armchair theologian while bashing sister Reformed denominations. I have met many EPC pastors, and I dare say that I have found quite a few whose preaching, pastoral demeanor, and confessional knowledge outstrip much of what I have found in certain sectors of the PCA. Shut it down, men. It's not helping Christ's kingdom one bit.
> 
> If this is too much for the admin/mods, and yet certain members are allowed to post their rants against the EPC, then maturity and integrity issues need be addressed amongst yourselves while I calmly remove myself from further participation here. Double standards will not get this board anywhere.
> 
> But again, work with your opportunities, Jeremy, and enjoy every place in which Christ gives you opportunity to minister.


Let me add one point, as one relatively versed in PCA polity: the EPC presbytery you are in is very conservtive, Reformed and well thought of in the PCA. There is also the fact that your ordination exam should stand on it's own, not based on where you hav previously served. Far more important to get substantive experience in a good church (and that church is one) than to have none.


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## Edward

The folks in the PCA need to be more concerned with cleaning up their own house than with looking for dust under the carpet at other denominations.


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## Scott1

There's another thing to consider here-

If your wife becomes a member of the denomination, and you do not, church discipline becomes more difficult.

Also, is this in line with the principle of biblical headship of a man of his family?


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## LeeJUk

Scott please just give the man a break, it's pretty obvious that the reason you want him to not go to the EPC is because of your own personal disliking of them and throwing out these things about biblical headship and church discipline is really clutching at straws and frankly quite offensive. I'm not looking to start an argument or put anyone down but I think quite a few people on this board really need to look at how their posts are coming across because a lot of the time it's like getting someone elses opinion jammed down your throat and that anyone who disagrees is unbiblical or unconfessional.


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## jjraby

First off, I am in seminary, so i do not have the time, nor the opportunity to be a "bread winner." God has given me a wife with a gift with Children and for Christ. And this Church has given her the ability to work for Christ, to work and help me with my studies. Am i to go to work full time, and school full time and risk my marriage by never seeing my wife because I am to be a bread winner? And here in Jackson, i didn't grow up here, so, sad to say, the PCA churches here are old school southern churches, meaning, Its all who you know and if you take someone's seat you better watch out. If you want in you gotta know someone. I don't know anyone, so I take the provisions that God has given me. If that's what God has given me, then the EPC is where i will be.


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## Semper Fidelis

There is no board rule or stance about the EPC.

It seems that the fact that the Moderators cannot keep up with everything that people post on this board is construed as endorsement of the same. This is hardly the case. I have two options:

1. Shut down the board so that people cannot write imprudent things.
2. Rely on others who have a problem with things to try to gently correct them and use the Report Post feature for particularly egregious things.

I don't know how this board (with close to 3000 members) can possibly be all things to all people. The hard stances that people take here are nearly impossible to strike a position where one will not be labeled as a party to the other. This board is criticized by Theonomists for silencing them and by Klineans for allowing Theonomists too much liberty.

I would appreciate those that rule Churches or are in any position of leadership to acknowledge the difficulty that the Mods and Admins have to police this board and that gossip or innuendo about the fact that they are not jumping into a particular discussion implies that they are party to the same.

Furthermore, even if a Mod or Admin take a stand in one area, this does not imply that the Admins or Mods are some sort of "session" that has deliberated on a matter and that the views of the Mods and Admins are monolithic.

In fact, the only person of the Admin team to weigh in on this was Pastor Greco and he was encouraging of the EPC and not bashing it. Frankly, I didn't even follow this thread (as I follow very little these days) but was concerned about the broad brush that every Mod and Admin is painted with every time a particular thread gets somebody's nose bent out of shape and it is implied that the Mods and Admins are soft on that person's "enemies".

Call me cranky or tired but it makes me wonder if this discussion board is sometimes worth the frustration it causes for such petty discussions. I'm ambivalent about the discussion and don't know enough about the EPC to weigh in and so I stayed out but that doesn't keep others from painting me and every other Mod with the brush of decrying the EPC and all its members.


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