# Is New Covenant Theology An Acceptable Reason to Leave a Church?



## pslagle2012 (Nov 27, 2017)

I go to a NCT church in the area. My wife and I are both CT and our pastor is aware of the disagreement. I am pretty involved at the church as I teach community group and do the benediction every Sunday. I have been studying NCT more lately and it's made me a bit concerned. I am seeing a denial of the moral law as a more serious issue than before. I know we would have to go through a process of discussion with my church and not just leave but do you think it is even grounds to leave at all? Also a factor is that I am paedobaptist and my church is Baptist so there are various areas of disagreement.


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## TylerRay (Nov 27, 2017)

Is there a strong Reformed/Presbyterian church nearby?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 27, 2017)

Patrick,

Please see responses to your previous:
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/how-dangerous-is-new-covenant-theology.94173/

I think the negative verdict concerning NCT was made quite clear in that thread.

That "also" addition, on the matter of credo vs. paedo, should give anyone pause about where they covenant their membership in a visible vestige of Our Lord's bride, too.

Locate one of these churches near your vicinity:
http://www.naparc.org/member-churches/


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## pslagle2012 (Nov 27, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> Is there a strong Reformed/Presbyterian church nearby?


There is an EPC church nearby and three PCA churches between 30-40 minutes away. The rest are all NCT Baptist.


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## pslagle2012 (Nov 27, 2017)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Patrick,
> 
> Please see responses to your previous:
> https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/how-dangerous-is-new-covenant-theology.94173/
> ...


Thanks for reminding me of that conversation. Good advice.

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## TylerRay (Nov 27, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> There is an EPC church nearby and three PCA churches between 30-40 minutes away. The rest are all NCT Baptist.


Do you know if any of the PCA churches are confessional?

I'd caution you against joining yourself to the EPC--it would mean committing the care of your souls to those whom Christ has specifically excluded from office--i.e., women. Even if that's not the case on the congregational level, it will be the case on the presbyterial and synodical levels.


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## Andrew P.C. (Nov 27, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> I am pretty involved at the church as I teach community group and do the benediction every Sunday.




I hate to be the one to ask, but are you an ordained minister?


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## pslagle2012 (Nov 27, 2017)

Andrew P.C. said:


> I hate to be the one to ask, but are you an ordained minister?


I am not, although my pastor has expressed interest in ordaining me at some point. Our church is a very small Baptist congregation and I am just trying to be edifying to the body. I have filled pulpits in the area for a long time so some type of teaching role just made sense and it was a need. Lord willing, my life will lead into ordination eventually.


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## Jack K (Nov 27, 2017)

If you are to be ordained, you should be particularly careful to complete that process in a church that fits your convictions. There will be too many difficulties ahead if you don't.

Otherwise, I think both choices are viable. There are very good reasons to be in a church that fits your convictions and teaches the soundest doctrine. But there are also very good reasons to avoid church-hopping and stay committed to a group of believers where there has been mutual encouragement and accountability.

When as good Presbyterians we moved to our current town and had to pick a church to join, we had serious non-doctrinal concerns about the only faithful Presbyterian church in the area. After much angst, we decided to join a Calvinistic but largely NCT Baptist church instead. Now, eleven years later, we hear that the concerns we had about the Presbyterian church have been eliminated. Does this mean we should leave our Baptist church now that there's a better fit and purer confession of faith across town?

Maybe. But so far, we have stayed where we are. Despite areas of disagreement with our current church, the overall teaching and approach to worship is good, and we got our kids baptized before we arrived here. More importantly, we have invested eleven years in mutual burden-bearing, forgiveness of hurts and shortcomings, encouragement, and celebration of God's goodness. That's an important and beautiful part of what it means to belong to a church. It requires commitment, and is not something to cast aside as soon as a better option comes along. There's always a better church somewhere, but switching churches can destroy much of what life in the church is supposed to be in the first place.

So should you find a better church? Quite possibly. But I don't think you necessarily should feel you are compromising if you decide to stay. You may have excellent reasons based on a great understanding of the church.

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## Dachaser (Nov 28, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> I am not, although my pastor has expressed interest in ordaining me at some point. Our church is a very small Baptist congregation and I am just trying to be edifying to the body. I have filled pulpits in the area for a long time so some type of teaching role just made sense and it was a need. Lord willing, my life will lead into ordination eventually.


I hold to reformed baptist viewpoint, and would advise you my brother to join yourself with a like minded church, especially if you are called to be a pastor, as you would find yourself keep going against their baptist theology at times.


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## Dachaser (Nov 28, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> I go to a NCT church in the area. My wife and I are both CT and our pastor is aware of the disagreement. I am pretty involved at the church as I teach community group and do the benediction every Sunday. I have been studying NCT more lately and it's made me a bit concerned. I am seeing a denial of the moral law as a more serious issue than before. I know we would have to go through a process of discussion with my church and not just leave but do you think it is even grounds to leave at all? Also a factor is that I am paedobaptist and my church is Baptist so there are various areas of disagreement.


Even if there were a CT reformed Baptist church, your viewpoints on some issues would find yourself in disagreement with them, so would advise to move unto local Presbyterian church in your area.


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## bookslover (Nov 28, 2017)

In the PCA, you could also get men in tights doing liturgical dance. So, there's that... LOL

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## TylerRay (Nov 28, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> I am not, although my pastor has expressed interest in ordaining me at some point. Our church is a very small Baptist congregation and I am just trying to be edifying to the body. I have filled pulpits in the area for a long time so some type of teaching role just made sense and it was a need. Lord willing, my life will lead into ordination eventually.


Brother,
It sounds like the ecclesiology is seriously lacking at that church, which means that your family is not being shepherded according to Scriptural principles. The fact that he is having you pronounce the benediction without ordination, and that he has considered ordaining you without agreement in doctrine throws up a red flag. I would advise you to seek membership in a confessional Reformed congregation, especially if you intend the ministry. You need to be mentored in the Reformed faith if you intend to teach it to others.


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 28, 2017)

I am curious, how do NCT respond to why stealing is wrong?


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## Tyrese (Nov 29, 2017)

Jack K said:


> If you are to be ordained, you should be particularly careful to complete that process in a church that fits your convictions. There will be too many difficulties ahead if you don't.
> 
> Otherwise, I think both choices are viable. There are very good reasons to be in a church that fits your convictions and teaches the soundest doctrine. But there are also very good reasons to avoid church-hopping and stay committed to a group of believers where there has been mutual encouragement and accountability.
> 
> ...



Great post! Doctrine is definetly important. But we can’t talk about another Church as if it’s not a Church. If ministry is in view, leave. If not, I’d carefully consider wether leaving is the right thing. I think once we’re able to make a decision with a clear conscience, we’ve made the right decision.


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## BG (Nov 29, 2017)

New Covenant Antinominism ( it is not theology) is heresy you have to leave. You said yourself that they denied the moral law, how long before they act on that? Protect your wife and family before the wife swapping starts. A friend of mine who attended a Reformed Baptist Church with me about ten years ago has embraced NCA he told me polygamy was not a sin. Run

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## Jake (Nov 29, 2017)

pslagle2012 said:


> There is an EPC church nearby and three PCA churches between 30-40 minutes away. The rest are all NCT Baptist.



It looks like you're about 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. You have a lot of options for Reformed churches nearby, even if not right in town.

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## Dachaser (Nov 29, 2017)

BG said:


> New Covenant Antinominism ( it is not theology) is heresy you have to leave. You said yourself that they denied the moral law, how long before they act on that? Protect your wife and family before the wife swapping starts. A friend of mine who attended a Reformed Baptist Church with me about ten years ago has embraced NCA he told me polygamy was not a sin. Run


What would be to me the red flag was that our brother was trying to be ministering in a church where their basic theology would be t odds with his own, so how could they respect him. or how could he preach and teach?


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## Jack K (Nov 29, 2017)

BG said:


> Protect your wife and family before the wife swapping starts.



I'm a covenant theology guy too, but don't you think it's going way overboard to suggest that due to being NCT a church is about to encourage wife-swapping? It's more helpful to challenge a church based on beliefs and practices it actually follows, rather than make up scandalous scenarios that have no basis in fact. Have you really seen this in NCT churches you know? Really?


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## BG (Nov 29, 2017)

Jack K said:


> I'm a covenant theology guy too, but don't you think it's going way overboard to suggest that due to being NCT a church is about to encourage wife-swapping? It's more helpful to challenge a church based on beliefs and practices it actually follows, rather than make up scandalous scenarios that have no basis in fact. Have you really seen this in NCT churches you know? Really?



Of course it’s over the top that’s why I said it

If it is a Heresy and it is, it should be mocked. We applaud men like Calvin and Luther for their stance against false teaching but if you speak out against it today you are somehow unkind and unloving. We could never have a reformation today we lack men with enough testicular fortitude to do so.


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## Username4000 (Nov 29, 2017)

John Yap said:


> I am curious, how do NCT respond to why stealing is wrong?



I'm not NCT by any stretch of the imagination, but this is a command that is repeated in the NT, so they would say that it is guaranteed that it exists in the Law of Christ as it did in the Law of Moses.

Your question still applies to commands that aren't repeated, though, which usually means the Lord's Day. And NCT isn't a cohesive movement with one answer to that; it ranges from "then the Sabbath no longer applies" to "it applies, but not necessarily on a fixed day of the week" to "be sure not to overwork yourself or your family".


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## Jack K (Nov 29, 2017)

BG said:


> If it is a Heresy and it is, it should be mocked.



Yeah, I've never been a big fan of the idea that God desires his people to be adept at mocking. I also like to be more guarded in the use of the word "heresy," so as not to suggest damnable errors (such as Trinitarian ones) are present when they actually are not.

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## Dachaser (Nov 29, 2017)

koenig said:


> I'm not NCT by any stretch of the imagination, but this is a command that is repeated in the NT, so they would say that it is guaranteed that it exists in the Law of Christ as it did in the Law of Moses.
> 
> Your question still applies to commands that aren't repeated, though, which usually means the Lord's Day. And NCT isn't a cohesive movement with one answer to that; it ranges from "then the Sabbath no longer applies" to "it applies, but not necessarily on a fixed day of the week" to "be sure not to overwork yourself or your family".


That is my understanding of NCT theology, in that those holding to it would say that we as Christians are still under the obligations of the law if it got rementioned and placed over to us in the NT itself. They would thus be accepting 9 of the 10 for us today, so wife swapping would be sinful to thm also.


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## BG (Nov 29, 2017)

Jack K said:


> Yeah, I've never been a big fan of the idea that God desires his people to be adept at mocking. I also like to be more guarded in the use of the word "heresy," so as not to suggest damnable errors (such as Trinitarian ones) are present when they actually are not.



Then by all means don’t read Calvin, Luther or any puritans


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## Jack K (Nov 29, 2017)

BG said:


> Then by all means don’t read Calvin, Luther or any puritans



It takes more work, but it is possible (those men prove it) to offer sharp critique while still describing the positions and practices of one's opponents accurately. Then one is both defending the truth and practicing truth.

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## TrustGzus (Nov 29, 2017)

Jack K said:


> Yeah, I've never been a big fan of the idea that God desires his people to be adept at mocking. I also like to be more guarded in the use of the word "heresy," so as not to suggest damnable errors (such as Trinitarian ones) are present when they actually are not.



I agree with you, Jack. I’m not Calvin, Luther or one of the Puritans. I’m naturally good at mocking. I’m not naturally good at 2 Timothy 2:24-26. I’d rather be good at 2 Timothy. 

24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, 25 instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth. 26 Then they may come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. 

God’s word commands us to be gentle. Even if Calvin, Luther or Puritans did X or Y, that doesn’t mean they were right and we should follow them. They were great. They weren’t infallible or sinless.

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## BG (Nov 29, 2017)

Matthew 5:19

All through the Bible people are mocked. Truth is by nature confrontational if we are going to stand for truth we will be forced to confront people. compromise and appeasement has gotten us nowhere. I for one am tired of soft men with soft theologies who preach a water down gospel and portray Jesus as a sugary sweet God who just wants to give everybody a big group hug. May God once again raise up a generation of men who love him and his word so much that they are willing to put heretics to death. I’ll let you have the last word I’ve got a run out and get a Mani-pedi and a latte.

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## Ben Zartman (Nov 30, 2017)

Our Lord was meek and lowly of heart, and still managed to call the Scribes and Pharisees some pretty scathing things. John the Baptist could lay it on pretty harshly as well. I see no reason we should not be like Jesus in this matter, and making allowance for not having all wisdom, still let heretics and prevaricators have it.

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## Jack K (Nov 30, 2017)

BG said:


> All through the Bible people are mocked.





Ben Zartman said:


> Our Lord was meek and lowly of heart, and still managed to call the Scribes and Pharisees some pretty scathing things.



The issue I bring up here is not whether mocking can be appropriate at times (it surely can). Rather, I question whether we should get loose with the truth in order to mock opponents for things they don't actually believe or practice. What's more important: getting in a good jab or being careful about the truth?

Increasingly, we live within a media culture that believes delivering a one-liner to discredit the bad guys is more important than speaking truth in the process. Believers should resist this trend.

When Jesus criticized the Pharisees, he did not make up over-the-top lies about them in order to get a bigger laugh at their expense so his well-deserved jabs would sting more. Telling the truth matters, especially when we set ourselves up as defenders of truth. We must make sure our criticism—even our mocking criticism—is essentially fair and accurate.

In the example on this thread, the barb in question was not just over-the-top for the sake of effect. More than one poster pointed out that the entire direction of the barb did not truthfully reflect the beliefs and practices of those churches. Once this was made clear, why did the untruthful joke keep getting defended?

I don't think I'm being a spoil-sport here. I like fun, witty language and sharply-made points. But especially on a thread where we have a fellow seriously wrestling with whether or not to leave his church, attention to truth is needed. A jab isn't always right just because it neatly mocks those on the wrong side.

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## Edward (Nov 30, 2017)

BG said:


> A friend of mine who attended a Reformed Baptist Church with me about ten years ago has embraced NCA he told me polygamy was not a sin.



Polygamy is Old Testament. You'll need to connect those dots.


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## Ben Zartman (Dec 1, 2017)

Jack K said:


> The issue I bring up here is not whether mocking can be appropriate at times (it surely can). Rather, I question whether we should get loose with the truth in order to mock opponents for things they don't actually believe or practice. What's more important: getting in a good jab or being careful about the truth?
> 
> Increasingly, we live within a media culture that believes delivering a one-liner to discredit the bad guys is more important than speaking truth in the process. Believers should resist this trend.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, Jack. There's plenty to criticize without bending the truth. But we must not shy from speaking that truth as firmly as is necessary. And to point out where a dangerous path logically leads is not amiss, even if no one has gotten yet to the end of that path. That is why we guard closely against the entrance of error: it's a path that only leads to apostacy.

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## BG (Dec 1, 2017)

Edward said:


> Polygamy is Old Testament. You'll need to connect those dots.



I agree, it is odd but NCA in my opinion has cult like similarities. They pick and choose the parts of the Bible they wish to keep and discard at will what they dislike. Smorgasbord theology.


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## BG (Dec 1, 2017)

Ben Zartman said:


> Fair enough, Jack. There's plenty to criticize without bending the truth. But we must not shy from speaking that truth as firmly as is necessary. And to point out where a dangerous path logically leads is not amiss, even if no one has gotten yet to the end of that path. That is why we guard closely against the entrance of error: it's a path that only leads to apostacy.



Ben, great point. Rodney King Theology (can’t we all just get along) is not Christianity. We must defend the faith and that is sometimes ugly or hard to take for a soft society where peace and prosperity are the things we treasure most.


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## Jack K (Dec 1, 2017)

I still won't buy the idea that we ought to overlook our carelessness with the truth, and maybe even encourage each other to keep up the good lie-telling work, so long as the higher purpose of discrediting errant teachers is served.

I realize no one here has said _that_ yet, exactly. But that too seems to be where the path suggested logically leads, and hence something to guard against with vigilance.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 1, 2017)

*moderating on/ *
That's enough for the rabbit trail from the OP. Start a separate thread on how ugly we can be in proclaiming the truth if it is burning a hole in anyone's pocket.
*/moderator off*


BG said:


> Ben, great point. Rodney King Theology (can’t we all just get along) is not Christianity. We must defend the faith and that is sometimes ugly or hard to take for a soft society where peace and prosperity are the things we treasure most.





Jack K said:


> I still won't buy the idea that we ought to overlook our carelessness with the truth, and maybe even encourage each other to keep up the good lie-telling work, so long as the higher purpose of discrediting errant teachers is served.
> 
> I realize no one here has said _that_ yet, exactly. But that too seems to be where the path suggested logically leads, and hence something to guard against with vigilance.

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## Krak3n (Dec 1, 2017)

Regarding the original post; Yes, you should move on. 

New Covenant Theology is just a *deceptive form of Antinomianism*. It starts by claiming that it only rejects those laws which are not repeated in the new covenant, but it goes on to remove the teeth of any laws that do remain.

How so?

"Love" will be the new banner that all decisions must fall under, and not Biblically defined love (as defined in God's law, Romans 13:8-10), but a nebulous "led by the spirit" love. Don't let the bible-speak fool you, NCT presupposes that God's Spirit is contrary to the commands God has given us in the Old Testament.

As has been mentioned, Matthew 5:19 and following is crucial here. (Remember, Jesus is talking about our "good works" that enable us to be salt and light.)
"Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

NCT will diminish the salt and light of a church and its' congregants. They reject God's law and their pastors will be the "least in the kingdom of heaven". (I do say that in love, for the love of entire congregations, I account those church members worthy of more than the the feelings of their poor leaders.)

That section of Scripture above, as well as the whole Sermon on the Mount, is key to this issue. *NCT says that Jesus then goes on to give his NEW law*, as opposed to the law as found in the OT. They would argue that Jesus is giving NEW laws that are similar, but better. (Anger, Lust, Divorce, Etc.)

That seems a bit nonsensical, as Jesus just said he did not come to abolish them, seriously it's in the paragraph above his giving of the NEW laws.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

You also have to wonder why Jesus is coming down on the Pharisees so harshly. If the problem with the OLD laws was that the Pharisees were keeping them *as intended *and Jesus decided that the _old laws were just insufficient_, then on what grounds does Jesus chide them? How can he condemn them for keeping the poor laws God gave them in the first place? Proponents of NCT do not understand that Jesus is not critiquing the Law of God, Jesus is critiquing the Pharisees horrible understanding and execution of it.

I say this from someone who is currently in the process of leaving their church of the past 20 years. It's not going to be easy, but I cannot continue to attend and tithe in good conscience.

When you get to the point that you no longer trust what comes from the pulpit and hope to find all your scriptural advice online, knowing that any advice you'd receive from your current elders is flawed... well, you are not doing yourself or your family any favors by staying. (I say "you", but am speaking of myself.)

I can give you specific practical examples over PM if you'd like. (I haven't seen polygamy yet, though I'd imagine NCT would argue against that from Matthew 19, as his example has one man and one woman.)

Also, a secondary issue, NCT does not conform to any reformed confessions that I'm aware of.


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## Dachaser (Dec 1, 2017)

Krak3n said:


> Regarding the original post; Yes, you should move on.
> 
> New Covenant Theology is just a *deceptive form of Antinomianism*. It starts by claiming that it only rejects those laws which are not repeated in the new covenant, but it goes on to remove the teeth of any laws that do remain.
> 
> ...


Those who would hold to NCT are wrong in some issues, but they are still part of the body of Christ, and their theology is still ongoing, as they have not yet developed a systematic theology yet.


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## Krak3n (Dec 2, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Those who would hold to NCT are wrong in some issues, but they are still part of the body of Christ, and their theology is still ongoing, as they have not yet developed a systematic theology yet.



They are wrong on enough issues that we do not need to wait for them to round out their theology. If the foundation is off the finished structure is going to be garbage. 

Was there anything specific you disagreed with in my post that you quoted?


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## Dachaser (Dec 2, 2017)

Krak3n said:


> They are wrong on enough issues that we do not need to wait for them to round out their theology. If the foundation is off the finished structure is going to be garbage.
> 
> Was there anything specific you disagreed with in my post that you quoted?


I do see them as being mistaken on how they view the relationship of the Christian now to the law, but would not see them on the whole as being into lawless living .


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