# Charity to the poor...only for those within the church?



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

I've had several Reformed Baptist pastors assert that a Christian has no duty to give to the poor outside the church. 

Yes, we should help the poor within the church, but not merely help the poor indiscriminately. 
Some have said, "The Church has not duty to help the poor."

Any thoughts?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Poimen (Sep 15, 2019)

Galatians 6:10 is clear where the priority is but it also extends the parameters beyond the church. Additionally, poor and stranger are joined under the law: Leviticus 19:10, 23:22, 25:35.

Reactions: Like 7


----------



## ZackF (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I've had several Reformed Baptist pastors assert that a Christian has no duty to give to the poor outside the church.
> 
> Yes, we should help the poor within the church, but not merely help the poor indiscriminately.
> Some have said, "The Church has not duty to help the poor."
> ...


The Parable of the Good Samaritan?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Sep 15, 2019)

“Therefore as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those of the household of faith.”- Galatians 6:10

Paul makes it clear that while our priority should be those within the church, we should seek to help all people as we are able. I don’t think it could get much clearer than this.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

The strange thought on this Lord's Day is that the church, Elders and Deacons, only has a duty to take care of it's members,but the members of the church have the duty to care for the poor as God providentially guides them.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> The strange thought on this Lord's Day is that the church, Elders and Deacons, only has a duty to take care of it's members,but the members of the church have the duty to care for the poor as God providentially guides them.



That is, indeed, a strange thought.


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> That is, indeed, a strange thought.



Now do not get me wrong, the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides. Think about this for a moment, in that what if a Pastor has a neighbor who is needy, does he ask His congregation to give to the neighbor?


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Now do not get me wrong, the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides. Think about this for a moment, in that what if a Pastor has a neighbor who is needy, does he ask His congregation to give to the neighbor?



What if his neighbor is starving or homeless?


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> What if his neighbor is starving or homeless?



As I said he, the pastor, should care for him. He may ask for help, but to assume his concern for his particular neighbor should not fall to the congregation of his particular church. In other words, is it the duty for every particular member to care for each and every concern of their bother in Christ next door neighbor?


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> As I said he, the pastor, should care for him. He may ask for help, but to assume his concern for his particular neighbor should not fall to the congregation of his particular church. In other words, is it the duty for every particular member to care for each and every concern of their bother in Christ next door neighbor?



Thanks. I'll have to chew on that for awhile. 

Some churches have designations and the members write what their gifts are designated for. In the bulletin of some there is sometimes a list of ongoing needs to support. Other churches have the members just give into the pool and then the church decides how to distribute to it. The deacons of some churches decide all the mercy ministries. I prefer the first option. Other churches I have seen just announce needs (if the needy are ok with it) and let the members work it out for themselves. 

How should churches do it?


----------



## Edward (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides.



Have a proof text for that? Is it going to be like that old game show, Queen for a Day, where the best sob story gets the money? 

Good stewardship calls for an orderly process. 

As for the original question:



> only for those within the church?



Not only, but first and primarily. Unless one is looking to make "rice Christians" (which can, of course, have its own long term benefits, but that is a separate issue).

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## RJ Spencer (Sep 15, 2019)

I have heard some use Proverbs 13:15 "the way of a transgressor is hard." To justify th idea that we are only to assist fellow Christians. I think you'd have to do a lot of eisegesis to arrive at that conclusion. But I don't think we can use the parable of the good Samaritan to say that we must help unbelievers either. 
Galatians 6:10 is pretty straight forward.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

Edward said:


> Have a proof text for that? Is it going to be like that old game show, Queen for a Day, where the best sob story gets the money?
> 
> Good stewardship calls for an orderly process.
> 
> ...



In the parable of the Good Samaritan there was no time for a church meeting or order. 

Sometimes in life you suddenly come up on an instance of need, and there should not be any sort of hoops to prevent this immediate response of kindness.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> I have heard some use Proverbs 13:15 "the way of a transgressor is hard." To justify th idea that we are only to assist fellow Christians. I think you'd have to do a lot of eisegesis to arrive at that conclusion. But I don't think we can use the parable of the good Samaritan to say that we must help unbelievers either.
> Galatians 6:10 is pretty straight forward.



Doing good to ALL men, especially the household of faith somehow excludes all men outside the household of faith?


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

Edward said:


> Have a proof text for that? Is it going to be like that old game show, Queen for a Day, where the best sob story gets the money?
> 
> Good stewardship calls for an orderly process.
> 
> ...



Sometimes the result is not rice Christians but those who are alive who would have otherwise been dead aside from the help of Christians.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

Edward said:


> Have a proof text for that? Is it going to be like that old game show, Queen for a Day, where the best sob story gets the money?
> 
> Good stewardship calls for an orderly process.
> 
> ...



6 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because *their *widows were neglected in the daily ministration.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Sep 15, 2019)

The wisdom that has been given to the leaders of the local church in regards to benevolence should be higher than the laypersons; my concern for giving randomly is that it doesn't require any litmus test. Here in S. Fla, most pan-handlers are abusers of substances. They frequent the same corners and intersections. Have their signage stating, 'homeless and hungry. God bless'. I do not give anything to these as I have, over the years, offered to get them off the streets, to which they emphatically refused. I believe it is all our responsibility to be good stewards w/ the money God has given us; this to mean, as the person is interviewed, the HS will lead us into a particular wisdom on the matter and let you know whether to give or not to give. For the record, it has been extremely rare where I have had an instance where the person requesting assistance was valid.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> In the parable of the Good Samaritan there was no time for a church meeting or order.
> 
> Sometimes in life you suddenly come up on an instance of need, and there should not be any sort of hoops to prevent this immediate response of kindness.



Indeed per my point as God providentially provides, it is the responsibility of all Christians to meet the needs of all, and it does not require the officers of the church to do our duty as laymen.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Indeed per my point as God providentially provides, it is the responsibility of all Christians to meet the needs of all, and it does not require the officers of the church to do our duty as laymen.


That seems reasonable, since all good things that Christians do are not necessary things the church needs to do as the church body.


----------



## Edward (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> 6 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because *their *widows were neglected in the daily ministration.



I was asking for a proof text for your position, not mine.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

*Old Testament passages*

"Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22
"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6
"During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11
"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10
"Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15
"When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22
"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39
"If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48
"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18
"At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29
"However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4
"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7
"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9
"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14
"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17
"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21
"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8
"as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22
"When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14
"because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12
"Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25
"If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16
"The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9
"But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18
" Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5
"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6
"This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6
"My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10
"The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14
"Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17
"A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5
"Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10
"The poor will see and be glad — you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33
"Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5
"He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4
"For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13
"Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4
"But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41
"For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7
"I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12
"He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7
"The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23
"He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21
"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31
"The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25
"Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19
"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5
"He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17
"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9
"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich — both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16
"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22
"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3
"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27
"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7
"those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14
"Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9
"She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20
"If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8
"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17
"The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15
"to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2
"With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4
"The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30
"You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4
"Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19
"The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7
"If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10
"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1
"On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34
"I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4
"(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28
"if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6
"This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3
"'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16
"Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
"He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7
"The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7
"Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1
"Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4
"Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6
"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10
" So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5
*New Testament passages*

"Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21
"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in." Matthew 25:35
"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Mark 12:40
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18
"So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22 [ E-book: The Kingdom strikes back ]
"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33
"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22
"Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47
"'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." John 12:5
"In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor." Acts 9:36
"Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord?' he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.'" Acts 10:4
"After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings." Acts 24:17
"On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.'" Romans 12:20
"For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." Romans 15:26
"All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10
"Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." 1 Timothy 5:3
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
"Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6
"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18


Proof-texts. These shows generosity to the poor; not merely poor believers.


----------



## Edward (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Sometimes in life you suddenly come up on an instance of need, and there should not be any sort of hoops to prevent this immediate response of kindness.



But that doesn't support the position that an elder or deacon has a different or higher duty.


----------



## Steve Curtis (Sep 15, 2019)

Perg, I didn't read them all, but, actually, these verses are generally concerned with caring for the poor within the external covenant community (national Israel in the OT, specifically, and in most of the NT directives, as well).
Now, I am right there with you in the conviction to help those outside the 'household of faith' (which term, I think, means those in the external community, not necessarily believers) - the 'especially' makes it pretty clear that we should care for non-covenant members, as we are able (without prioritizing them over those 'of the household').
The reality, though, when it comes to proof-texting, is that one's view of covenant theology will significantly impact the exegesis of the passages you cite.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

kainos01 said:


> Perg, I didn't read them all, but, actually, these verses are generally concerned with caring for the poor within the external covenant community (national Israel in the OT, specifically, and in most of the NT directives, as well).
> Now, I am right there with you in the conviction to help those outside the 'household of faith' (which term, I think, means those in the external community, not necessarily believers) - the 'especially' makes it pretty clear that we should care for non-covenant members, as we are able (without prioritizing them over those 'of the household').
> The reality, though, when it comes to proof-texting, is that one's view of covenant theology will significantly impact the exegesis of the passages you cite.


Not all of them; there are quite a few directed towards the foreigner or the stranger.

Sure, you can dismiss "proof-texting" but when I quote about 70 verses literally, then you've got to deal with them. It is not merely proof-texting. but a major theme of scripture at that point, generosity to the poor.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scott Bushey (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> generosity to the poor.



Randomly?


----------



## earl40 (Sep 15, 2019)

Edward said:


> I was asking for a proof text for your position, not mine.



That is why I bolded my proof.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

Scott Bushey said:


> Randomly?


When you encounter a true need.


----------



## ZackF (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> *Old Testament passages*
> 
> "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22
> "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6
> ...


With all of that why did you post the question?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Jeri Tanner (Sep 15, 2019)

The stranger and the foreigner were those who in God’s providence had come to be living or sojourning in the land. Scripture is clear that they always were to be welcomed but they were also to fear the Lord and not be idolaters. But mostly, as Steve pointed out, the poor of the land were of Israel.


----------



## Steve Curtis (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Not all of them; there are quite a few directed towards the foreigner or the stranger.
> 
> Sure, you can dismiss "proof-texting" but when I quote about 70 verses literally, then you've got to deal with them. It is not merely proof-texting. but a major theme of scripture at that point, generosity to the poor.


I did say "generally" ... I also said that I agreed with you that we should help the poor as we are able to do so.
I only wanted to point to the covenantal aspect of the passages you cited.

Also, you cited Deut. 10:18. Verse 19 gives weight to the 'go and do likewise' response to God's love for the sojourner, as recorded in v. 18. Again, though, it is best to see these sojourners as those who have been joined to the nation of Israel.


----------



## Edward (Sep 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> That is why I bolded my proof.



First, you do understand, don't you, that both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders? 

Second, and you might not understand, that they were speaking of a corporate action, not individual, one on one, interactions. 

So, for these two reasons, the scripture quoted doesn't support your proposition. 



earl40 said:


> Now do not get me wrong, the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor with their own money if God providentially provides. Think about this for a moment, in that what if a Pastor has a neighbor who is needy, does he ask His congregation to give to the neighbor?



To be clear, I'd answer your question with a 'yes'.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

Jesus fed and healed many indiscriminately, both Jew and Gentile. We are to follow the example of Jesus.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I've had several Reformed Baptist pastors assert that a Christian has no duty to give to the poor outside the church.


You must run in some very strange circles. Who were these men? How many is "several"? Where did they "assert" this? I don't know of a single confessional Reformed Baptist pastor that would espouse that view. It certainly isn't representative of Reformed Baptists in general. With zero evidence to support such a claim, and without the ability to check whether yours is a fair characterization of their view, it just comes across as a cheap smear against Reformed Baptists. And that wouldn't surprise me since lately, it would appear you have something of an axe to grind against RB churches and pastors.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 15, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> You must run in some very strange circles. Who were these men? Where did they "assert" this? I don't know of a single confessional Reformed Baptist pastor that would espouse that view. It certainly isn't representative of Reformed Baptists in general. With zero evidence to support such a claim, and without the ability to check whether yours is a fair characterization of their view, it just comes across as a cheap smear against Reformed Baptists. And that wouldn't surprise me since lately, it would appear you have something of an axe to grind against RB churches and pastors.



Ah sure, knowing me, how can you trust anything I say, after all.

I heard it just yesterday from an RB church (name withheld because they are good folks otherwise). It seems to be a variation of what Edward is advocating.

And yes, I am grappling with some of the deficiencies of our movement (the tendency towards heavy shepherding, spiritual arrogance, and the lack of outreach). It's not been a steller year for US Reformed Baptist churches.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Sad 1


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Ah sure, knowing me, how can you trust anything I say, after all.


On matters relating to Reformed Baptists it would seem not, given your admitted prejudice.


Pergamum said:


> I heard it just yesterday from an RB church (name withheld because they are good folks otherwise). It seems to be a variation of what Edward is advocating.


Ah, a "variation." On such subjects, details matter a great deal in actually understanding their position instead of misrepresenting their views and charging them with a deficiency of love to their neighbors. You admittted yourself they were an otherwise godly church. Have you thought of reaching out to the pastor to allow him to clarify, explain, or defend his position. It may prove enlightening.


Pergamum said:


> And yes, I am grappling with some of the deficiencies of our movement (the tendency towards heavy shepherding, spiritual arrogance, and the lack of outreach). It's not been a steller year for US Reformed Baptist churches.


The three things you mention here are hard to define and easy to criticize even when their is no basis for it and extremely difficult to defend against. I think you are wrong about these things, but regardless, you admit your bias and should be careful that it not to lead you to unfair criticisms of Reformed Baptist brethren. That would be harmful to them and unsafe for you.

Reactions: Amen 1


----------



## TheReppingRev (Sep 16, 2019)

We are to show our love one to another, first and foremost, as it is a showing of bearing one another's burdens and a visible demonstration of the Fruit of the Spirit.

We are to treat the sojourner and the deposed with equal amounts of love, showing them a taste of what fellowship within our community and with our God is to look like. We lead by example, but if we do not faithfully practice within our own congregation, we will have no ability to exercise it outside faithfully.

I know of many instances where charity was solely external and those within were buried under circumstances with no hand of aid given or second glance of a charitable nature bestowed.


----------



## earl40 (Sep 16, 2019)

Edward said:


> First, you do understand, don't you, that both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?
> 
> Second, and you might not understand, that they were speaking of a corporate action, not individual, one on one, interactions.
> 
> So, for these two reasons, the scripture quoted doesn't support your proposition.



Seems to me we are reading something different.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 16, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> On matters relating to Reformed Baptists it would seem not, given your admitted prejudice.
> 
> Ah, a "variation." On such subjects, details matter a great deal in actually understanding their position instead of misrepresenting their views and charging them with a deficiency of love to their neighbors. You admittted yourself they were an otherwise godly church. Have you thought of reaching out to the pastor to allow him to clarify, explain, or defend his position. It may prove enlightening.
> 
> The three things you mention here are hard to define and easy to criticize even when their is no basis for it and extremely difficult to defend against. I think you are wrong about these things, but regardless, you admit your bias and should be careful that it not to lead you to unfair criticisms of Reformed Baptist brethren. That would be harmful to them and unsafe for you.



Why don't you address the topic instead of your perceptions of me. 

If you want to talk about the health of the American Reformed Baptist church in America, I am ready to roll with that topic, too, so start a different thread. It has several unhealthy tendencies that I am not afraid to point out.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 16, 2019)

The stated position of this particular church is that they are only commanded to exercise charity towards fellow believers. I can go back and clarify, but they stated "only" instead of "primarily." 

As Edward has pointed out rightly, our duties start and are primarily concerned with fellow believers. But I believe there are verses that speak to general charity to all the needy we encounter as well. Especially in times of great need. 

There are questions, of course, about how to determine need, and many churches find it necessary to have some sort of policy so as not to be drained dry by those unwilling to work.

On the other extreme, I've seen some broadly evangelical churches who have exercised mercy ministries in such a way that it seems like 10s of thousands of dollars are wasted each year that would better have been served by supporting missionaries or needy pastors doing more evangelistic work.

Of course, it is hard to fault any church when a hurricane hits and the church takes up an offering to help those who have lost homes in the storm. But we could say then as well that such funds could have supported struggling pastors in true reformed churches instead of victims of a storm who may never even attend church. 

And as Andrew states above, the poor widow in our own congregation seems to have more priority than a stranger 5 states away.

What are some policies that some of your churches use to help determine need and priority of giving?


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Why don't you address the topic instead of your perceptions of me.


_You_ decided to say this was the position of "several Reformed Baptist pastors." You could have had a discussion about the topic without linking it to Reformed Baptists, but you did. I find the claim rather incredible. So I responded.


Pergamum said:


> If you want to talk about the health of the American Reformed Baptist church in America, I am ready to roll with that topic, too, so start a different thread. It has several unhealthy tendencies that I am not afraid to point out.


Oh I have no doubt you could go on and on about everything you think is rotten and terrible about Reformed Baptists.


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 16, 2019)

Moderation:
Please stick to the topic. Yes, it is good to have a helpful discussion on the relationship between social justice and the church, but keep the discussion civil and edifying please.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


----------



## Edward (Sep 16, 2019)

earl40 said:


> 6 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because *their *widows were neglected in the daily ministration.





earl40 said:


> Seems to me we are reading something different.



Looks a good bit like Acts 6 to me. As Matthew Henry says, "An unhappy disagreement_ among some of the church-members_...." (Emphasis supplied). 

Thus my comment "both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?"


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 16, 2019)

Examples of mercy ministry towards all people (especially those outside the church):


A food pantry is established by the church and the needy are helped without relation to whether they believe or not. 
Outsiders and even the homeless are invited to church meals.
The church may sponsor groups that meet that are not necessarily Reformed. Suicidal or depressed or at-risk groups. Even recovering addicts.
Church families may be sponsored to help church members adopt.
Churches may engage in pro-life ministries that are not necessarily explicitly religious.
A disaster hits locally and the local church becomes a center of help and lodging.

During times of plague, the Christian faith grew in the Roman Empire.

"Rodney Stark, author of_ The Rise of Christianity_, argues that some of the marked growth of the church in the early centuries can be attributed to care and compassion Christians showed for the sick. He tracks increased conversion rates during three plagues: the Antonine plague (2nd c.), the Cyprian plague (3rd c.), and the Justinian plague (6th c.). Christians demonstrated their love for God and biblical values, and they offered a very attractive witness."

https://www.str.org/blog/the-witness-of-christian-compassion#.XYAQEygzZPY


And the first chapter of the Didache says:

"Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."
*6.* But concerning this it was also said, "Let thine alms sweat into thine hands until thou knowest to whom thou art giving."


The Shepherd of Hermas states: 

“assist widows, visit orphans and the poor, ransom God’s servants, show hospitality, help oppressed debtors in their need.”


And the Emperor Julian even had to admit:

"It is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever had to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people [pagans] lack aid from us."

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ZackF (Sep 16, 2019)

I’m still at a loss at the purpose of the thread as reformed Baptists on the PB have spoke in contradiction to the experience recounted by Perg. It seems his opinion was settled before posting. Most in the thread have responded with a variation of “the church first and then with discernment others as means allow.”


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 16, 2019)

Michael Horton's book "The Gospel Commission", especially part 3, is very helpful here. I don't have time to expand but he gives some fine examples of charity and mercy ministry in church history, while at the same time gives full clarity to the gospel and what the churches primary responsibilities should be. I find him very balanced.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 16, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Michael Horton's book "The Gospel Commission", especially part 3, is very helpful here. I don't have time to expand but he gives some fine examples of charity and mercy ministry in church history, while at the same time gives full clarity to the gospel and what the churches primary responsibilities should be. I find him very balanced.


Thanks. Yes, I have read and been impacted by that book.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ben Zartman (Sep 16, 2019)

Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service. Those who are seeking funds to pay for immigration lawyers (these are pretty common requests in our area) we remind that the primary mission of the church is the care of their souls, not social justice, and we are not qualified to give legal advice or aid.
Since the care of souls is our first responsibility, the church sends funds to missionaries and native pastors in other lands, as well as helping local churches with occasional needs, but we don't do much with secular charities. So much for the church.
Individually, though, we are called to love even our enemies to the point of feeding them when hungry and giving them to drink, though it heap coals of fire on their heads. So if my neighbor is in need, I don't go to the church to secure a handout for him--I help him myself. I don't believe that helping my neighbor's ox out of a ditch or returning to him a runaway cow should be limited to whether he's a member of the covenant community: I believe it's my duty to do it regardless, because God has put a person in need into my path. That's partly how our light shines before men--when we do good to those even who despitefully use us and abuse us.
So while church members individually can help their neighbor paint his house or fix his car, it is not the mission of the Church to do those things. Bit of a distinction; I hope it came across clear.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## De Jager (Sep 16, 2019)

We are to do good to all, especially to those of the household of faith. However, I have indeed wondered about the scriptural warrant for the church to help the poor. It seems to me that the role of the organized church (elders and diaconate) is to take care of the needs of the sheep and use the keys of the kingdom. I think churches can get distracted when the leadership gets involved in mercy ministries. Certainly it is not within the role of elders. The question is it in the role of the diaconate. I have no problem with individual believers or groups of believers forming organizations to provide mercy. Of course the danger is that we fall into a social gospel.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 16, 2019)

Ben Zartman said:


> Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service. Those who are seeking funds to pay for immigration lawyers (these are pretty common requests in our area) we remind that the primary mission of the church is the care of their souls, not social justice, and we are not qualified to give legal advice or aid.
> Since the care of souls is our first responsibility, the church sends funds to missionaries and native pastors in other lands, as well as helping local churches with occasional needs, but we don't do much with secular charities. So much for the church.
> Individually, though, we are called to love even our enemies to the point of feeding them when hungry and giving them to drink, though it heap coals of fire on their heads. So if my neighbor is in need, I don't go to the church to secure a handout for him--I help him myself. I don't believe that helping my neighbor's ox out of a ditch or returning to him a runaway cow should be limited to whether he's a member of the covenant community: I believe it's my duty to do it regardless, because God has put a person in need into my path. That's partly how our light shines before men--when we do good to those even who despitefully use us and abuse us.
> So while church members individually can help their neighbor paint his house or fix his car, it is not the mission of the Church to do those things. Bit of a distinction; I hope it came across clear.


Yes, I get the distinction. It is helpful.


----------



## mgkortus (Sep 16, 2019)

Pergamum,

I find the following four passages most instructive on this matter:

· *Galatians 6:9-10*– In this passage, Paul exhorts the church to do good unto all men, especially unto those who are of the household of faith. This passage instructs us to place special emphasis in tending to the needs of our spiritual brothers and sisters, and highlights the concept of “_moral proximity_” that Kevin DeYoung expounds upon his book entitled: _What is the Mission of the Church? _If you have not read it, the principle of moral proximity is that the closer the need, the greater the obligation to help. This does not refer strictly to geography, but how connected we are to someone based on familiarity, kinship, space, or time. As DeYoung writes, “The intensity of our moral obligations depends on how well we know the people, how connected they are to us, and whether those closer to the situation can and should assist first” (Pg. 184). Therefore, the church's benevolent fund is rightly distributed first to those within the congregation and then more broadly to those within a denomination for example. However, this passage calls us to do good unto _all men, _which is differentiated from those who are believers. When the needs a congregation and denomination have been met, this passage thus calls us to provide help the indigent persons outside the church when we have opportunity.

· *2 Corinthians 8-9*– In this passage Paul exhorts the church to generosity on the basis of the grace they received. He calls for those who have an abundance to relieve the necessities of the brethren. Reflecting on especially 2 Cor. 8:13-15, Kevin DeYoung, in the same book mentioned above, writes: “The basic principle here is pretty easy to understand: Christians with more than enough ought to share with Christians who don’t have enough” (Pg. 168).

· *Luke 10:25-37*– The account of the Good Samaritan. This passage instructs us not to worry about defining who is or is not our neighbor, but to worry about being a good neighbor. We do not limit our love to only those who we want to love. Instead, we love those whom God places in our path, regardless of their background, race, etc. Again, Jesus’ emphasis on compassionate giving of resources and care _outside of normal cultural/religious boundaries _remains the obligation of those who would show the love of Christ.

· *Luke 6:27-36*– Here, Jesus exhorts his followers to do good to those who hate them and who manifest themselves to be enemies. Even sinful unbelievers willingly show kindness to those who will return the same; however, we are called to be merciful to all men, even the most despicable—for God is merciful to us who by nature hate Him. Therefore, we do not limit acts of love and mercy to those within the walls of the church.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 17, 2019)

mgkortus said:


> Pergamum,
> 
> I find the following four passages most instructive on this matter:
> 
> ...




Great quotes. Do you think these quotes apply to the organized local church structure or merely to individual Christians as the need arises?


----------



## Nate (Sep 17, 2019)

Ben Zartman said:


> Our church deals with this as well--the pastors get multiple calls a week from people with a hard-luck story looking for handouts. Our policy is to give them a grocery store gift card after they attend the Lord's Day service.


This is a good policy. We have many homeless people and individuals in difficult financial situations in our area and use a similar policy. We've purchased grocery cards that do not allow purchase of alcohol/tobacco/lottery etc, and distribute them to individuals who ask for help. When we give them the cards, we invite them to the upcoming worship service as well as put them in contact with the deacons. The large majority do not come to worship, don't respond to the deacons, and stop asking for help after one or two iterations of this, but some have attended worship and received diaconate care for a while.


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 17, 2019)

We take up a benevolence offering each month at the conclusion of the Lord's Supper for the support of a local ministry that serves the poor.

When someone who is not a member applies to us for assistance, we will help. But we observe the following guidelines...

A person must apply for help in person at one of our stated meetings which they are asked to attend. People who take advantage of churches often call on a week day and demand a pastor drop everything and provide help immediately. Refusing to be rushed weeds out number of bad apples.
We do not provide transportation. There have been exceptions to this rule, but in general, experience has taught us to avoid it.
When the service they attend concludes, they can speak with the deacon(s) and explain their situation and the nature of their need. We make no promises of help until after we have been able to discern a real need.
We ask for some form of identification and try to get basic information about where they live and what if anything they do for a living. If we discover they are lying to us, we go no further and provide no help.
We have zero tolerance for people who are demanding, entitled, or abusive. When this is observed, the process ends and we provide them no help.
We only make payments to third parties (e.g. utility company), not the one applying for assistance.
We have found these policies helpful in our efforts to help those who come to us for assistance and weed out the ones who are trying to take advantage of the church.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Taylor (Sep 17, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> We take up a benevolence offering each month at the conclusion of the Lord's Supper for the support of a local ministry that serves the poor.
> 
> When someone who is not a member applies to us for assistance, we will help. But we observe the following guidelines...
> 
> ...



This is very helpful.

Many churches do not employ such policies because they are afraid it will make them look selfish or stingy. However, generosity toward the needy and financial wisdom or stewardship are not enemies, but close friends.

Reactions: Amen 1


----------



## earl40 (Sep 17, 2019)

Edward said:


> Looks a good bit like Acts 6 to me. As Matthew Henry says, "An unhappy disagreement_ among some of the church-members_...." (Emphasis supplied).
> 
> Thus my comment "both the Greek widows and the Jewish widows were part of the church, and not random needy neighbors of the elders?"



No doubt we agree though it seems you disagreed with my first post.

"the Elders and Deacons have the duty to care for the poor *with their own money* if God providentially provides.


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 17, 2019)

To be fair to Perg, I have occasionally heard something similar in my circles. I do think deacons should be entrusted with determining how to spend scant resources, and it may well be that a general policy of "members first" becomes practically "members only."

But, as a counter-balance, I've seen deacons of those churches listen to members requesting aid for non members they have met. I recall an offering to have a neighboring man's leaky house re-roofed.

There is always a need for case-by-case determination that defies "policy." Some churches do not adopt formal mercy missions--I'm not sure such a thing is required of a church. Personal duty to the poor requires similar discernment.

I never give to local panhandlers, for example, because they are addicts, able-bodied, regulars, and have an organized approach (sign sharing, shifts, locations, etc.).

But then last Spring I ran across a former client sitting in the rain babbling incoherently and shivering. He was coming down from meth and hypothermic. He hadn't eaten in two days. It was all of his doing, of course. But I still felt pain at his condition and spent a couple of (precious to me) hours trying to get him warm, fed, and squared away with resources. Calling authorities takes time, the police were tired of dealing with him.

We can only do so much. Compassion fatigue is real though. May God grant us wisdom and compassion in these matters.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## py3ak (Sep 17, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> We do not provide transportation. There have been exceptions to this rule, but in general, experience has taught us to avoid it



Our local police warned us quite strongly never to provide transportation directly. Community churches contribute to a fund administered by the police department, who have available resources, experience, and discretion to provide food, lodging, and transportation.

If someone is known to the congregation, payments may be made to third parties on their behalf, or grocery store gift cards provided.


----------



## Edward (Sep 17, 2019)

VictorBravo said:


> There is always a need for case-by-case determination that defies "policy."



Well, a well drafted policy will have procedures for addressing the exceptional cases.


----------



## mgkortus (Sep 17, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Great quotes. Do you think these quotes apply to the organized local church structure or merely to individual Christians as the need arises?



I think the principles behind them apply to both the local church and the individual. In the book, DeYoung makes the case that the work of the _church_ is first and foremost the preaching of the gospel. He takes aim at those who wish to make the mission of the church center on social justice issues. However, he does address the matter of helping others, as the quotes indicate. 

My view: While it is not the local church's _responsibility_ to take care of the poor outside of the church, nevertheless, when God has blessed us with far more than we need, it is good for the church to look for _opportunities_ to help others (applying the principle of moral proximity).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## OPC'n (Sep 17, 2019)

I think it's Biblical to help your family members, then church members, then those outside the church in that order. We should strive to help where we can.

Reactions: Like 2 | Amen 1


----------



## My Pilgrim Way (Sep 19, 2019)

Speaking of...happened to see this story online. That's a lot of money.

https://www.newser.com/story/280648...get-a-27m-letter-of-love.html?utm_source=part


----------

