# Dwi



## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

All, 

I know a man that is in his first year of seminary and he was arrested for a DUI prior to starting sem. Do you believe that since he confessed his sin and is repentant that he will have no problem with ordination? Would you have a problem hearing this man proclaim the Gospel? This is a good man that allowed Satan in. What are your opinions?


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## Blueridge Believer (May 23, 2007)

jawyman said:


> All,
> 
> I know a man that is in his first year of seminary and he was arrested for a DUI prior to starting sem. Do you believe that since he confessed his sin and is repentant that he will have no problem with ordination? Would you have a problem hearing this man proclaim the Gospel? This is a good man that allowed Satan in. What are your opinions?




I'd want to be sure he didn't have a drinking problem. Time will tell if his behaviour will be more responsible in the future. Other than that I wouldn't have any problems with him. God only knows what might happen to any of us before we leave this world.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> I'd want to be sure he didn't have a drinking problem. Time will tell if his behaviour will be more responsible in the future. Other than that I wouldn't have any problems with him. God only knows what might happen to any of us before we leave this world.



I know for a fact that he no longer drinks alcohol and hasn't since the arrest. I think he repents everyday for this.


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## Blueridge Believer (May 23, 2007)

What did the seminary have to say about it? What about his church? Again, I'd probably not have any problem at all with the brother.


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## Kristine with a K (May 23, 2007)

Every man in the Ministry has sins he has (had) to deal with. Some just aren't as widely known by his friends/family/congregants.

If he's sincerely repentant and has turned away from this sin, I see no reason to ban him. Which of the Apostles, Reformers, or Church Fathers didn't have a sin he was ashamed of?


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## satz (May 23, 2007)

Kristine with a K said:


> Every man in the Ministry has sins he has (had) to deal with. Some just aren't as widely known by his friends/family/congregants.
> 
> If he's sincerely repentant and has turned away from this sin, I see no reason to ban him. Which of the Apostles, Reformers, or Church Fathers didn't have a sin he was ashamed of?


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## Contra_Mundum (May 23, 2007)

I'll just add that, the greatest *ding* against the man could be the _shame_ of having such a blot on his record. We don't know what he was doing when stopped, what he blew or what his BAC was. We know literally nothing at all about the situation. In a couple years, the powers that be could revise the "drunk" needle down once again. Its gone down to .08 now. And who knows, it could go down to .075 before long, or .05. You get the picture.

What is "drunk"? For the purposes of pulling people over, and giving them tickets, eventually only designated drivers will get away with driving everyone home from the pub. And don't think a bicycle will help. In the past 3 months, I've seen reports of tickets issued for driving a bike while drunk, driving a gokart while drunk, riding a HORSE while drunk. Now every one of these people has an "arrest record."

Now, here's a man who has aspirations for the ministry, but he's going to have to PROVE to some search committee that he is not "given to much wine", when he could have been "barely" illegal (or maybe he was sotted) and got hit. All I can say is that God opens doors that no man can shut, so if he wills, this man will make it into Christ's ministry.

But let us not be part of the "assessment crew" when we don't know the man or his situation. We have no way of judging his competence for the ministry.

Maybe he's fit, maybe not.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I'll just add that, the greatest *ding* against the man could be the _shame_ of having such a blot on his record. We don't know what he was doing when stopped, what he blew or what his BAC was. We know literally nothing at all about the situation. In a couple years, the powers that be could revise the "drunk" needle down once again. Its gone down to .08 now. And who knows, it could go down to .075 before long, or .05. You get the picture.
> 
> What is "drunk"? For the purposes of pulling people over, and giving them tickets, eventually only designated drivers will get away with driving everyone home from the pub. And don't think a bicycle will help. In the past 3 months, I've seen reports of tickets issued for driving a bike while drunk, driving a gokart while drunk, riding a HORSE while drunk. Now every one of these people has an "arrest record."
> 
> ...



I know that he blew a .09 and he was hit by another car. The driver that hit him had not been drinking, but because he had, he was responible for the entire accident. I also know that he drank 4 beers over a 3 hour period of time. I know this man and I know he is sorry for his sin.


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## Staphlobob (May 23, 2007)

jawyman said:


> I know for a fact that he no longer drinks alcohol and hasn't since the arrest. I think he repents everyday for this.



Then there should be nothing standing in his way.

BTW, if he's already truly repented then he need not do it anymore. Such behavior could demean God's grace and exalt human sin.


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## Blueridge Believer (May 23, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> Then there should be nothing standing in his way.
> 
> BTW, if he's already truly repented then he need not do it anymore. Such behavior could demean God's grace and exalt human sin.




Your point about repentance is taken brother. However onece you've done something really stupid and exceedingly sinfull it's really hard to get over the shame. I know this from experience.


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## Kevin (May 23, 2007)

just my opinion, but...

4 beers over three hours, does not sound excessive enough to be classified as (the sin of ) drunkeness. 

Unless he is very young or very small he would probably not even be intoxicated by any recognisable standard other than the govt. BAC.


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## Anton Bruckner (May 23, 2007)

i just hope it wasn't any corny european beer.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

He is the same age I am and I guess I should say that maybe he doesn't repent everyday, but I know he still feels the shame of the incident. And he really only had 4 beers.


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## Kevin (May 23, 2007)

Slippery said:


> i just hope it wasn't any corny european beer.



I think that it is Americans who put corn in their beer


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## Kevin (May 23, 2007)

jawyman said:


> He is the same age I am and I guess I should say that maybe he doesn't repent everyday, but I know he still feels the shame of the incident. And he really only had 4 beers.



I can understand the shame I was only trying to point out that just because he broke the law by having a BAC over the limit he may (i don't know) not have "sinned" against God.


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## Pilgrim (May 23, 2007)

I have a friend who had about the same thing happen to him. He had had maybe a little more to drink, but wasn't drunk by any other standard than BAC. A very expensive mistake to be sure, costing him over $1,000 in fines and court costs, and a suspended license for a while. 

The argument from MADD in a situation where the driver who usually wouldn't be at fault in an accident is charged with DWI and fingered as the guilty party is that maybe he would have reacted quicker and been able to avoid the accident had he not been drinking. 

As Bruce stated, I have no doubt that their goal is to eventually make it illegal to drive after having had any alcohol at all. Maybe one day someone will be charged with DWI after having communion wine.


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## Dagmire (May 23, 2007)

That sounds like a very innocent mishap. I would drink four beers over three hours sitting on my back porch on a Lord's day afternoon talking about His mercies. And I would not hesitate to drive to an evening church service afterward.

It sounds like his shame and fear of being judged for that accident is more the problem than the bit of beer.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

Dagmire said:


> That sounds like a very innocent mishap. I would drink four beers over three hours sitting on my back porch on a Lord's day afternoon talking about His mercies. And I would not hesitate to drive to an evening church service afterward.
> 
> After my friend's incident, I would not recommend it.


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## Dagmire (May 23, 2007)

Okay, three beers in three hours, then.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

All in all, he fears this will really hurt his ability to become ordained and preach the Good News. I believe so long as the elders have forgiving hearts and understanding minds, this will not hinder him from becoming ordained. 

He has been honest and up front about the entire incident and he has repented and he is doing all that is required of him while on probation. He also as quite drinking completely.


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## Staphlobob (May 23, 2007)

jawyman said:


> All in all, he fears this will really hurt his ability to become ordained and preach the Good News. I believe so long as the elders have forgiving hearts and understanding minds, this will not hinder him from becoming ordained.



Actually such an experience may enhance his ability to preach. Knowing his own brokenness and weakness may enable him to highlight more authentically the grace of God.


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## Dagmire (May 23, 2007)

Why would it keep him from being ordained? We all stumble in many areas. It's not the perfection of ministers that enables them to minister, it's the grace and gifts of God.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> Actually such an experience may enhance his ability to preach. Knowing his own brokenness and weakness may enable him to highlight more authentically the grace of God.



That is what I have been telling him, but as he sees it he has failed to live up to 1Ti 3 and Ti 1.


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## Dagmire (May 23, 2007)

Phl 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 
Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


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## jawyman (May 23, 2007)

Dagmire said:


> Phl 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
> Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.



Absolutely edifying


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## turmeric (May 23, 2007)

IF I could get 4 beers down in 3 hours, I promise you I wouln't be street-legal to _walk_, let alone drive!


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## Staphlobob (May 23, 2007)

jawyman said:


> That is what I have been telling him, but as he sees it he has failed to live up to 1Ti 3 and Ti 1.



There is a legalism at work in his head and heart that stresses the importance of his perfection at the expense of His grace. ALL OF US have failed 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. We do so continually. We might say that such failure (and continual striving after forgiveness) is precisely what qualifies for being an elder. It's an old saw but a true one: "God equips the called, not calls the equipped." 2 Corinthians 12 may also be good for him.

Give him time, support, and - above all - prayer. If God is truly calling him to the ministry he will not only move beyond his shame but eventually begin to use it in a positive way, i.e., to give glory to God.


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