# One God three Manifestations (Modalism)



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (May 22, 2005)

Can one believe in modalism and still be a Christian? 

[Edited on 5-22-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## Craig (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> Can one believe in modalism and still be a Christian?
> 
> [Edited on 5-22-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


Not if they are rejecting the Trinity. 

What I mean is this: many times our churches are not instructing the members on what we mean by Triune, incarnation, etc. A person may struggle with understanding God's "threeness" because of the Church's failure to instruct. Now, if someone is instructed clearly on the Trinity, and denies God's Truth, then I would say they aren't converted.


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## Scott Bushey (May 22, 2005)

Modalism is heresy. Condemned by Tertullian and others......

Embraced by *TV* Jakes et al.

WCF ch 2
I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for his own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]

1. Deut. 6:4; I Cor. 8:4, 6; Gal. 3:20

2. I Thess. 1:9; Jer. 10:10
3. Job 11:7-9; Job 26:14; Psa. 139:6
4. John 4:24
5. I Tim. 1:17; John 1:18
6. Deut. 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39
7. Acts 14:11, 15
8. James 1:17; Mal. 3:6
9. I Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23-24
10. Psa. 90:2; I Tim. 1:17
11. Psa. 145:3; Rom. 11:34
12. Gen. 17:1; Rev. 4:8
13. Rom. 16:27
14. Isa. 6:3: Rev. 4:8
15. Psa. 115:3; Isa. 14:24
16. Isa. 45:5,6; Exod. 3:14
17. Eph. 1:11
18. Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36; Rev. 4:11
19. I John 4:8, 16; John 3:16
20. Exod. 34:6-7
21. Heb. 11:6
22. Neh. 9:32-33; Heb. 10:28-31
23. Rom. 1:18; Psa. 5:5-6; 11:5
24. Exod. 34:7a; Nah. 1:2-3, 6

II. God hath all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth.[32] In his sight all things are open and manifest,[33] his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands.[36] To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.[37]

25. Jer. 10:10; see John 5:26
26. Acts 7:2
27. Psa. 119:68
28. I Tim. 6:15; see Rom. 9:5
29. Acts 17:24-25
30. Luke 17:10
31. Rom. 11:36
32. Rev. 4:11; Dan. 4:25, 35; see I Tim. 6:15
33. Heb. 4:13
34. Rom. 11:33-34; Psa. 147:5
35. Acts 15:18; Ezek. 11:5
36. Psa. 145:17; Rom. 7:12
37. Rev. 5:12-14

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost:[38] the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;[39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.[40]

38. Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; see Eph. 2:18
39. John 1:14, 18; see Heb. 1:2-3; Col. 1:15

40. John 15:26; Gal. 4:6


[Edited on 5-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]

[Edited on 5-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 22, 2005)

Sabellius was not instructed well on the Trinity. Was he a heretic?


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## fredtgreco (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> Sabellius was not instructed well on the Trinity. Was he a heretic?



Yes. He was a fountainhead of many, many heresies.

Modalism is a heresy, and by definition one cannot be a Christian (which is Trinitarian) and a modalist. Even the Apostles' Creed is contra modalism.


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## Craig (May 22, 2005)

When I said not instructed on the Trinity, I meant an ignorant Christian in the pew. I think the context was quite clear.

Sabellius rebelled against church teaching: he was not ignorant.

I think we all know there are those ignorant of sound teaching (see my comment on the failure of the Church and teaching), and those who rebel against it. All I know is that I remember post conversion not understanding God's Threeness...I had a lot of confusion. Then, I read a book explaining what the Trinity meant...I had heard the word before, but never heard the doctrine taught (this is after 20 years of attending church, K-12th grade at a Christian school, and about 2 years of college at a "Christian" college). So yes, a Christian not being properly instructed may have a modalist understanding for a while, but not *after* being instructed on the truth.


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## fredtgreco (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> When I said not instructed on the Trinity, I meant an ignorant Christian in the pew. I think the context was quite clear.
> 
> Sabellius rebelled against church teaching: he was not ignorant.
> ...



Understood. But it would also be a requirement that the Christian be uninstructed in modalism.

So, for example, a 5 year old should be able to answer correctly the question: "Is Jesus God?" The modalist cannot.


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## Craig (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Understood. But it would also be a requirement that the Christian be uninstructed in modalism.
> 
> So, for example, a 5 year old should be able to answer correctly the question: "Is Jesus God?" The modalist cannot.


True. The sort of "modalist" I was speaking of wouldn't know to call himself a modalist.

The main problem with us trying to figure out what sorts or heresies aren't damnable is that we must understand most outright heretics are academics, or leaders of some sort. The original post says: 


> Can one believe in modalism and still be a Christian?


The answer is clearly "no"...to that. I found it important and fruitfull to also note one could have modalistic tendencies out of ignorance and be a Christian.


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## Puritanhead (May 23, 2005)

In hindsight I'm more apt to say almost or quasi modalists probably in all reality are not of faith... In the South, we like to say "You worship God in your way, and we will worship him in _His_."


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## fredtgreco (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> how far is one willing to go with this "unedumacted" thesis?



I'm willing to go as far as my 5-year old question: "is Jesus God?" And its necessary follow ups: "is the Father God?" "Is Jesus the Father?"

Anyone should be able to answer these three questions if they are a Christian, even if they are a child.


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## fredtgreco (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



That's my point, my friend! You have hit it dead on. If modalists can be held responsible for a 5 year-old's knowledge, there really is not much wiggle room here, is there?

Unless he was a 4 year old modalist....


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## yeutter (May 23, 2005)

Modalism is really a very serious problem in the black community. As mentioned the so called Apostolic Churches are really modalist cults. Jakes is inconsistantly a modalist. 
The existance of this heresy has opened some doors for me. It has proved an opportunity for me to share some good material on the Trinity with some of my Church of God in Christ friends.


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## kevin.carroll (May 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> Can one believe in modalism and still be a Christian?
> 
> [Edited on 5-22-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]



Not according to Chalcedon.


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## Ben Gliddon (Jun 18, 2005)

Someone once told me that it was a good illustration for children to view God like water: ice, liquid and vapor. She didn't like what I had to say about that.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 18, 2005)

> "You worship God in your way, and we will worship him in His."



I like that!


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## turmeric (Jun 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ben Gliddon_
> Someone once told me that it was a good illustration for children to view God like water: ice, liquid and vapor. She didn't like what I had to say about that.



Can we assume this person is an unbeliever because she's a modalist. My mom did the same thing with a plum when I was a kid. Not a good illustration at all. I don't know if that's modalism or just illogic!


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## Ben Gliddon (Jul 1, 2005)

I think that this woman would affirm the Trinity, so I'm guessing she just didn't think about that illustration. She would probably answer the three questions correctly.


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## adbauer (Jul 6, 2005)

I wonder if one can so easily discern who is a believer based on a creedal affirmation? I would agree that most people who are believers can affirm an orthodox expression of their faith. It just seems that when salvation is a function of the work of the Spirit in the heart, one could become regenerate with relatively little exposure to the theology associated with the faith and so require education. I would much prefer a new believer with poor/heretical theology but an uninstructed heart for God to some theologically trained hypocrit who spouts good theology but whose heart lacks kindness and who treats people as objects to be used for his advancement.

It just seems too cut and dried to talk about whether modalist are believers absent some knowledge of their situation (who is teaching them, how long have they been professing believers, are they in a culture that rejects considering theology) and with no ability to see what work the Spirit may be doing in their hearts.


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## sastark (Jul 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ben Gliddon_
> Someone once told me that it was a good illustration for children to view God like water



Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom?


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