# Social justice and the poor - and the Calvinist



## Pergamum

The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.

BUT....

Everytime the subject comes up on the PB, two things happen;

(1) Someone links the book Productive CHristians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators that was written against Ron Sider,

or

(2) They quote, 'The poor are always with us..."


WHY IS THIS?

And what should we be doing to help the poor? How and why? OUr local poor? The poor in other lands? Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?


----------



## Pergamum

Here's some Bible verses to sctructure the argument (from www.home.snu.edu):


Old Testament passages

"Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22 

"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6 

"During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11 

"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10 

"Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15 

"When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22 

"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39 

"If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48 

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18 

"At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29 

"However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4 

"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7 

"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9 

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11 

"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14 

"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17 

"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21 

"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19 

"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8 

"as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22 

"When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14 

"because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12 

"Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25 

"If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16 

"The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9 

"But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18 

" Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5 

"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6 

"This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6 

"My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10 

"The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14 

"Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17 

"A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5 

"Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10 

"The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33 

"Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5 

"He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4 

"For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13 

"Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21 

"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4 

"But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41 

"For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31 

"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9 

"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7 

"I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15 

"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12 

"He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7 

"The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9 

"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23 

"He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21 

"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31 

"The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25 

"Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19 

"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5 

"He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17 

"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13 

"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9 

"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." 
Proverbs 22:16 

"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22 

"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3 

"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27 

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7 

"those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14 

"Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9 

"She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20 

"If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8 

"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17 

"The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the 
poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15 

"to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2 

"With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4 

"The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30 

"You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4 

"Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19 

"The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7 

"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17 

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7 

"If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10 

"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1 

"On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34 

"I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4 

"(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28 

"if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6 

"This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3 

"'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16 

"Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13 

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49 

"He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7 

"The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29 

"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7 

"Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1 

"Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4 

"Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6 
"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10 

" So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5 
New Testament passages

"Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21 

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in." Matthew 25:35 

"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Mark 12:40 

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18 

"So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22 [ E-book: The Kingdom strikes back ] 

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33 

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13 

"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22 

"Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47 

"'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." John 12:5 

"In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor." Acts 9:36 

"Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord?' he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.'" Acts 10:4 

"After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings." Acts 24:17 

"On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.'" Romans 12:20 

"For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." Romans 15:26 
"All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10 
"Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." 1 Timothy 5:3 

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27 

"Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6 

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18


----------



## etexas

Pergamum said:


> The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.
> 
> BUT....
> 
> Everytime the subject comes up on the PB, two things happen;
> 
> (1) Someone links the book Productive CHristians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators that was written against Ron Sider,
> 
> or
> 
> (2) They quote, 'The poor are always with us..."
> 
> 
> WHY IS THIS?
> 
> And what should we be doing to help the poor? How and why? OUr local poor? The poor in other lands? Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?


Good question. When I was in the Episcopal Church, we had a soup kitchen and a number of other things.I am interested in hearing a Reformed answer to this as a fairly new Reformed man myself.


----------



## Simply_Nikki

Thanks for this topic, It's been a struggle dealing with the subject of social justice and poor people. I'm taking a poverty and policy class at the moment and have been doing volunteer service work with the poor and homeless. It seems though when I criticize and abhor the policies that keep them there, I'm thought of as anti-capitalist or something. I don't understand...


----------



## VictorBravo

Pergamum said:


> The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.
> 
> BUT....
> 
> Everytime the subject comes up on the PB, two things happen;
> 
> (1) Someone links the book Productive CHristians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators that was written against Ron Sider,
> 
> or
> 
> (2) They quote, 'The poor are always with us..."
> 
> 
> WHY IS THIS?
> 
> And what should we be doing to help the poor? How and why? OUr local poor? The poor in other lands? Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?




I can't speak to the first option, but I have quoted the second. But that was in response to the question of whether we should spend _all_ of our resources on the poor. My use of the quote was to indicate that no matter what we personally did, under our own power and with our limited resources, it would not solve the problem.

Notwithstanding that, as the scriptures you quoted point out, the poor should not be oppressed nor should justice be kept from them. Even so, scripture also tells us that justice should not be arbitrarily in favor of them either.

I'm with you completely if confronted with an instance, or a system, that wrongs the weak and oppresses the poor. On the other hand, I have a hard time getting on board some of the social justice agendas in my local area: free needles for poor addicts, free housing for alcoholics (complete with free booze), free access to ****, etc. Especially when I personally deal with people who have suffered at the hands of institutionalized injustice by a warped legal system.


----------



## etexas

Simply_Nikki said:


> Thanks for this topic, It's been a struggle dealing with the subject of social justice and poor people. I'm taking a poverty and policy class at the moment and have been doing volunteer service work with the poor and homeless. It seems though when I criticize and abhor the policies that keep them there, I'm thought of as anti-capitalist or something. I don't understand...


Yes! This the problem I have had....when I talk about social justice with some Christians they look at me as if I am a Communist or an advocate of a humanist social Gospel.


----------



## Simply_Nikki

etexas said:


> Simply_Nikki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this topic, It's been a struggle dealing with the subject of social justice and poor people. I'm taking a poverty and policy class at the moment and have been doing volunteer service work with the poor and homeless. It seems though when I criticize and abhor the policies that keep them there, I'm thought of as anti-capitalist or something. I don't understand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! This the problem I have had....when I talk about social justice with some Christians they look at me as if I am a Communist or an advocate of a humanist social Gospel.
Click to expand...

 
I'm just glad i'm not the only one  I'm careful about wearing red LOL


----------



## etexas

Simply_Nikki said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simply_Nikki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this topic, It's been a struggle dealing with the subject of social justice and poor people. I'm taking a poverty and policy class at the moment and have been doing volunteer service work with the poor and homeless. It seems though when I criticize and abhor the policies that keep them there, I'm thought of as anti-capitalist or something. I don't understand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! This the problem I have had....when I talk about social justice with some Christians they look at me as if I am a Communist or an advocate of a humanist social Gospel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm just glad i'm not the only one  I'm careful about wearing red LOL
Click to expand...

I understand....Comrade.


----------



## RamistThomist

Many of those OT passages don't work because they were addressed to Israel, which was a theocracy. They were done away with when Christ came.

Is it really helping the poor to threaten the middle-class with fines and imprisonment, backed by gunpoint, if they don't give their money to some bureaucracy? Socialism is the gospel at gunpoint.

Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote. And Chilton was never answered, by the way


----------



## etexas

Spear Dane said:


> Many of those OT passages don't work because they were addressed to Israel, which was a theocracy. They were done away with when Christ came.
> 
> Is it really helping the poor to threaten the middle-class with fines and imprisonment, backed by gunpoint, if they don't give their money to some bureaucracy? Socialism is the gospel at gunpoint.
> 
> Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote. And Chilton was never answered, by the way


I am not so much talking about the given OT passages or Goverment involvement, what I am really after (myself) is an understaning of Reformed Christian duty towards the needy.


----------



## RamistThomist

i was responding mainly to Pergamum. He critiqued theonomy on an earlier thread and is now using theonomic arguments in this thread.


----------



## clstamper

1.) Maybe we can be more clear about the issue. I don't like to talk about "social justice," because it infers that wealth redistribution schemes are necessary. I find the Biblical category more helpful: that God opposes those who oppress the poor, the fatherless and widows. Slumlords, sweatshop owners, slavers and people who trade in undocumented labor may fit in this category.

2.) Actually, I do support taxing middle-class with fines and imprisonment, backed by gunpoint, if they don't give their money to certain bureaucracy. I'm thinking of border protection, civil defense, emergency services, disaster relief, law enforcement and whatnot. We can throw out the welfare statist bathwater without losing the baby of civil society, police, justice and defense.


----------



## Answerman

Biblically speaking helping the poor is a command for individuals and the Church. So no, government funding, though done, should not be permissible. We should do all in our power to end this massive theft ring.

I think we ought to do like Ron Paul does to his patients that are on some sort of government health care. That is to refuse any kind of government payment on moral grounds since that money must be stolen by the government from somebody in order for that patient to pay. All he asks is that they pay what they can. If we all did this the government theft ring called the welfare system would eventually go out of business.

My wife has asked me a few times why when she tells me about some government hand out, I refuse to participate. I explained to her that since I criticize this form of theft, it would make me a hypocrate if I made an exception in my case. I have explained this a few times and she has finally come around to see things the same way I do. She has also learned alot about the a more Biblical form of government should work by listening to Ron Paul.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot

See this thread.


----------



## etexas

Ron Paul should be King.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Pergamum said:


> The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.
> 
> BUT....
> 
> Everytime the subject comes up on the PB, two things happen;
> 
> (1) Someone links the book Productive CHristians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators that was written against Ron Sider,
> 
> or
> 
> (2) They quote, 'The poor are always with us..."
> 
> 
> WHY IS THIS?
> 
> And what should we be doing to help the poor? How and why? OUr local poor? The poor in other lands? Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?




Pergy: I am not speaking for this board or what you have witnessed. The reason being is we always look to the extreme and what the result can be. That is "liberation theology". This is a tremendous heresy and should be avoided at all costs. That said, there is a big difference between social justice and a "Social Gospel" We as "calvinists" make the mistake of not seperating salvation of the individual and care for others in the sphere of God's economy. There is NO preferential treatment for the poor from God in regards to Salvation. He is no respector of persons. But, He expresses an overwhelming burden on those who have, to care to the have not's. This is not socialism or communism. We must also not forget we are ALL POOR in Spirit. We are bankrupt prior to the new birth. And without grace, we would all be there. 

Those 2 atrocities say "What yours is mine"

Chrisitanity says "What is mine is yours".. 

BTW, i have no clue who Ron Sider is....


----------



## clstamper

Amazing Grace said:


> BTW, i have no clue who Ron Sider is....



He was the 1970s answer to Tim Keller.


----------



## Davidius

Actually, Pergamum, I quoted Jesus' statement because you said that poverty can be abolished, not because I want to dodge helping the poor and am a cold-hearted miser.

Now those things may be true because of my laziness and selfishness...but it wasn't why I made the comment in the other thread.  So you can get off your soap box. 

The real question is: why do people like to speak so generally and across-the-board? Does one of those two things really happen _every time_ you bring that subject up? Or did you just use the deceitful generalization in order to make your argument sound stronger?


----------



## k.seymore

I don't understood why people think Jesus was stating some sort of eternal truth or prophesying about the poor when he said, "you always have the poor," although I heard that interpretation plenty of times growing up. The passage isn't even about the poor. It is about Judas and the others insulting a woman for doing something they think is stupid, and Jesus defending the woman. (And John tells us that Judas' pockets were full of stolen money as he criticized her.)

"Leave her alone. Why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you want, you can do good for them. But you will not always have me. She has done what she could" (Mark 14:6-8)

Jesus is not saying this to us, we never criticized her. He is telling the hypocrite Judas and the others that they can give their money to to beautiful things for the poor at any time because, as the gospels tell us all through, there were masses of poor physically around the disciples all the time. If Judas really cared about the poor he wouldn't have pockets full of stolen money. But they couldn't do beautiful things like what this woman did for him all the time because, contrary to the poor that were physically around them all the time, he wouldn't be. Jesus isn't telling us we should let the woman pour out this gift because we always have the poor with us. The "you" that he is referring to not only have the poor with them, but are said to have Jesus' physical body with them for a short time.

Judas should have went out right there, bought a gift with his own earned money that was worthy a king, came back, bowed down and laid it at Jesus' feet himself. Helping the poor could wait a few days.


----------



## Pergamum

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Actually, Pergamum, I quoted Jesus' statement because you said that poverty can be abolished, not because I want to dodge helping the poor and am a cold-hearted miser.
> 
> Now those things may be true because of my laziness and selfishness...but it wasn't why I made the comment in the other thread.  So you can get off your soap box.
> 
> The real question is: why do people like to speak so generally and across-the-board? Does one of those two things really happen _every time_ you bring that subject up? Or did you just use the deceitful generalization in order to make your argument sound stronger?




Wow, deceitful generalizations? Soapboxes? Apparently a nerve was touched. 



Yes, I agree, vast gov't redistributions of wealth in a commie scheme would not be the answer. 

I also know the dangers of liberation theology. 

Yes, I know that much poverty is due to sin and oppressive gov'ts. Aid in these cases may further evil regimes.

And just because I quote OT passages does not mean I am using theonomic passages to prove my point (the theonomists are not the only ones who can use the OT).

Yes, we CAN help the poor and do much good within our small spheres of life.


But,


Again, what is the Christians and the church's duty towards the poor? 

And I assert again that I have experienced a general neglect towards the poor or a justification against helping them because they are bums, alcoholics, etc, among some of the Reformed I know. This is not to point any fingers at anyone here, though I do get tired of hearing the two tired out responses that I first posted, that (1) The poor are always with us, and (2) getting a lecture on communism or a link to a rebuttal of Ron Sider.


Do any of the churches here have a way to look after widows and orphans or the poor in a deliberate manner? It would appear that there are many Scriptures that would justify a planned and deliberate approach to this.


----------



## satz

I am not saying that giving and covetousness is not a struggle for me. However, I think one reason there is this ‘knee jerk’ reaction that sometimes occurs amongst Christians when appeals to help the poor go out is because many (certainly not all) of such appeals do not properly identify the objects of biblical charity. 

I have yet to see ‘the poor are always with us’ quoted in response to an appeal to help someone within the local church, or an appeal to help needy Christians in another country. However, I do not believe the bible teaches a general duty to the poor of the world in distant countries. And it is normally appeals of this kind that evoke the kind of responses described in the OP. In the NT the Apostles and churches primarily raised money for other churches and Christians. Most of the collection of money was to be brought to other places to relieve the poor Christians there. I am not aware of any instance of distributions being made to the general society. 

Under the OT, the nation and the church were very closely linked, so instances of taking care of the poor in Israel the nation are really similar to the practice of taking care of the poor in the church today. Again, there is no instance (that I am aware of) of OT Israel making collections to send to the poor in other nations.

Christians have a duty to help those outside the church when God in his providence causes their paths to meet. I believe this principle is thought in the story of the Good Samaritan where the Samaritan helped the wounded Jew he met on his way. And it is this story that Jesus told to answer the question: “Who is my neighbour?”, the answer being anyone who you met in the normal course of your life who is in need. The Samaritan did not go around looking for wounded Jews to help, which is consistent with what we have seen about the practice of the OT and NT churches.


----------



## Pergamum

Satz; Very well thought response....I am stilll chewing on it...It seems very Biblical.

What about Sudan or other countries where Christians are located and they are poor. Does it then become a responsiility to help out those of "Israel" across the world?


----------



## Amazing Grace

Pergamum said:


> And I assert again that I have experienced a general neglect towards the poor or a justification against helping them because they are bums, alcoholics, etc, among some of the Reformed I know. This is not to point any fingers at anyone here, though I do get tired of hearing the two tired out responses that I first posted, that (1) The poor are always with us, and (2) getting a lecture on communism or a link to a rebuttal of Ron Sider.



If this is the case, there should be a great amount of repentance. Again Christ was not a socialist or communist. The early church shared what THEY HAD, not what others had. Perhaps the reason for this reaction is due to the perversion of the thought that poverty means God's judgment, and bountiful crops means God blessing. (New England colony thought).


----------



## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Satz; Very well thought response....I am stilll chewing on it...It seems very Biblical.
> 
> What about Sudan or other countries where Christians are located and they are poor. Does it then become a responsiility to help out those of "Israel" across the world?



If we gave it to Sudan then the military would take it away. It would be far more merciful to the Sudanese to kill the slavers, then give them the aid.


----------



## AV1611

Pergamum said:


> The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.



Seeing that we believe in total depravity which means people are naturally wicked, selfish etc I am suprised that many Calvinists have a _laissez-faire_ attitude. 

In the UK we have a free-at-the-point-of-use National Health Service and free-at-the-point-of-use education. Yes the poor will always be with us but we have a moral duty to care for them and the state ought be involved!


----------



## kvanlaan

> What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?



That pretty much sums it up for me. Support those brothers and sisters in need, not just with prayer, but works (physical, material means) as well. Giving it into the maw of the gov't or an NGO just doesn't fit; while we must pay our tax as bidden, there is no reason to give to nonsense like makepovertyhistory.ca 

BTW - I truly disdain the term 'social justice'. Just makes my skin crawl.


----------



## puritan lad

Here is where I fall off the train...



Pergamum said:


> Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?



The answer is "no". There is no such thing as "government funding" is regards to helping the poor. Instead, it is nothing more then theft via the strong arm of the state. In reviewing the many scriptures already listed in regards to helping the poor, I dare day that you will not find one that mention the state.

If one is concerned about policies that keep the poor poor, State welfare is the first to go.

The Bible commands charity, not state-supported theft.


----------



## AV1611

puritan lad said:


> Here is where I fall off the train...
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is "no". There is no such thing as "government funding" is regards to helping the poor. Instead, it is nothing more then theft via the strong arm of the state. In reviewing the many scriptures already listed in regards to helping the poor, I dare day that you will not find one that mention the state.
> 
> If one is concerned about policies that keep the poor poor, State welfare is the first to go.
> 
> The Bible commands charity, not state-supported theft.
Click to expand...


We will just have to agree to differ


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

> Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?



No. It is theft by the civil government. Taxation is only to be collected for the state's legitimate functions (crime, defence etc), not for welfare: an activity which it is not authorized to get involved in.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

AV1611 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Bible speaks a lot about helping the poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing that we believe in total depravity which means people are naturally wicked, selfish etc I am suprised that many Calvinists have a _laissez-faire_ attitude.
> 
> In the UK we have a free-at-the-point-of-use National Health Service and free-at-the-point-of-use education. Yes the poor will always be with us but we have a moral duty to care for them and the state ought be involved!
Click to expand...


Richard

It is true that the Bible teaches people are selfish and wicked; however, it is fallen sinners who make up civil governments and they use their coercive power for selfish and wicked ends (i.e. stealing, restricting our liberty). When Calvinists adopt laissez-faire economics it is because we believe in freedom from state intervention, not freedom from God's providence.

The state ought not to be involved since God has not told it to be involved in welfare. Moreover, not all sins are crimes; as God has not categorised selfishness as a crime, then the state has no right to take people's money off them and redistribute it.

Furthermore, state welfare does not really help the poor at all, as most of the money goes to fund the bureaucracy needed to carry out the redistribution. I used to work in a dole office on the Shankill Road in Belfast, so I know from first hand experience what Statist welfare leads to.


----------



## satz

With respect, how many of those who consider state taxes to help the poor 'theft' would require husbands and parents to provide specific bible authority for _every single _use of their authority?

If a father makes a decision based on a child's disposition that this child should wait a year or two before starting to drive, or that he does not want the children to smoke, are those decisions illegitimate because they have no direct connection with the father's mandate of 'raising your children in the fear and nurture of the Lord?' 

Certainly authorities (parents, husbands, masters, government) can be excessive and overbearing in their use of authority. That is very different from saying that such uses of their authority are illegitimate or constitute blatant sin such as theft.


----------



## puritan lad

satz said:


> That is very different from saying that such uses of their authority are illegitimate or constitute blatant sin such as theft.


With all due respect, I'm not sure what else you would call it. It is the purposeful coveteousness and acquisition of another person's property, using the strong arm of the state to achieve it. It is a direct violation of both the 10th and the 8th Commandments. We must ask, does the decalogue apply to civil governments? On what moral grounds does the state steal money from one person and give it to another? Can the church do this as well? Why or why not?

It's not a matter of whether or not the Bible has to ordain every single act of authority (though that's a good standard). In this case, the theft of private property (or even coveting it) is strictly forbidden in Scripture, and the state is not exempt.

State Welfare is not only immoral, it is an abject failure.


----------



## satz

puritan lad said:


> With all due respect, I'm not sure what else you would call it. It is the purpose coveteousness and acquisition of another person's property, *using the strong arm of the state to achieve it.* It is a direct violation of both the 10th and the 8th Commandments. We must ask, does the decalogue apply to civil governments? On what moral grounds does the state steal money from one person and give it to another? Can the church do this as well? Why or why not?
> 
> It's not a matter of whether or not the Bible has to ordain every single act of authority (though that's a good standard). In this case, the theft of property is strictly forbidden in Scripture, and the state is not exempt.
> 
> State Welfare is not only immoral, it is an abject failure.



I hope this does not start to derail this thread, but in answer;

I would say it is not the use of the 'strong arm of the state'. It is the use of the God ordained authority of the state. Taxation (even for defense) would be theft if I were to personally decide to take someone else's property and use it to for my own purposes. But the state has the authority from God to do so in the form of taxation.

It is the same idea as with murder. The state has the authority to put people to death in a way individuals do not because of its position as a God ordained authority.

I guess we differ in that I do not see the state's authority limited to only those things specifically mentioned in the bible (defence, punishment of crime etc). Just as a husband or parent's authority is not limited to just what is specifically mentioned in scripture, but is fairly board as long as sin is not involved.

As someone (whom I can no longer remember) said, there is no regulative principle of government.


----------



## puritan lad

satz said:


> I would say it is not the use of the 'strong arm of the state'. It is the use of the God ordained authority of the state. Taxation (even for defense) would be theft if I were to personally decide to take someone else's property and use it to for my own purposes. But the state has the authority from God to do so in the form of taxation.
> 
> It is the same idea as with murder. The state has the authority to put people to death in a way individuals do not because of its position as a God ordained authority.



I don't think you have thought this through, because you have just given the state a blank check.

Was Ahab justified in stealing Naboth's vineyard and putting him to death (1 Kings 21)? The logical conclusion of your view is that he was.

Was Hitler justified in killing 6 million Jews due to his God given authority? Why or why not?

Granted, I'm not accusing you of supporting either of these men, but pointing out the logical conclusion of your position on civil government.



> I guess we differ in that I do not see the state's authority limited to only those things specifically mentioned in the bible (defence, punishment of crime etc). Just as a husband or parent's authority is not limited to just what is specifically mentioned in scripture, but is fairly board as long as sin is not involved.
> 
> As someone (whom I can no longer remember) said, there is no regulative principle of government.



What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.

Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others).


----------



## RamistThomist

> Was Ahab justified in stealing Naboth's vineyard and putting him to death (1 Kings 21)? The logical conclusion of your view is that he was.



BINGO!


----------



## BJClark

Pergamum,



> And what should we be doing to help the poor? How and why? OUr local poor? The poor in other lands? Is gov't funding permissible to be used to relieve the poor?



I can't speak for other church bodies, but ours has a Mercy Ministry..

We have a food pantry, and we have funds set aside to be available to help those in need..

it is set up in such a way that we work with other local church bodies, and community resources...

In working within the network of churches and community, we are better able to know who is taking advantage, and who is in real need of help...we share information with each other and make referals back and forth to each other...and we also have a group of volunteers within the church who train to help and assist in meeting this need.

We also work with the Salvation Army when they do their Homeless stand-down, where the local clothes closet comes over and brings clothes for them, they have doctors, dentists and such who volunteer their services..they have various people within their network that they work with, and we assist them..

If you would like I could get you in touch with the person at our church does the Mercy Ministry...and they could explain more fully what all services they provide..


----------



## AV1611

satz said:


> With respect, how many of those who consider state taxes to help the poor 'theft' would require husbands and parents to provide specific bible authority for _every single _use of their authority?



As I am sure most here know, I am a huge fan of Sir Robert Filmer.


----------



## satz

puritan lad said:


> I don't think you have thought this through, because you have just given the state a blank check.
> 
> Was Ahab justified in stealing Naboth's vineyard and putting him to death (1 Kings 21)? The logical conclusion of your view is that he was.
> 
> Was Hitler justified in killing 6 million Jews due to his God given authority? Why or why not?
> 
> Granted, I'm not accusing you of supporting either of these men, but pointing out the logical conclusion of your position on civil government.
> 
> What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.



I do not claim to have thought this subject out in great detail, nor to have all the answers as to where exactly government authority stops. 

I will maintain however, that for the subject at hand of the government using taxation money to help the poor, I see no bible reason to consider that sinful.

I did not make myself clear if anything I said was taken to mean that the law of God does not apply to government. I wholeheartedly affirm that it does. However, there is an 'exception' if you want to use that word made whereby governments are allowed to take money from their citizens in the form of taxes so they can be about their duty of ruling. My contention is that the government is not restricted to using those taxes in ways that are explicitly spell out in scripture.



> Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others



When I say there is no regulative principle of government, I do not mean that the government is not regulated by the law of God, which is the proposition your verses would be used against. I mean there is no regulative principle in the same manner as in worship. Things that are perfectly lawful in daily life are prohibited in worship because only what God commands should be performed. I see no such principle applying to civil government. Again, there are principles that regulate government. But simply because a particular objective does not appear explicitly in the bible does not make it wrong for the government to pursue that.


----------



## satz

Pergamum said:


> What about Sudan or other countries where Christians are located and they are poor. Does it then become a responsiility to help out those of "Israel" across the world?



Paul collected money to bring across the ancient world to help afflicted breathen in those places, so I am thinking the answer is yes.

The application, of couse, is much more difficult.


----------



## RamistThomist

satz said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about Sudan or other countries where Christians are located and they are poor. Does it then become a responsiility to help out those of "Israel" across the world?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul collected money to bring across the ancient world to help afflicted breathen in those places, so I am thinking the answer is yes.
> 
> The application, of couse, is much more difficult.
Click to expand...


Disanalogous. The topic is not whether Christians or the Church should help out around the world, but has now become: should the state take money away from its citizens to give to vague and nebulous causes in the name of charity?

Everyone keeps assuming that Paul's statements about charity (written to the church) automatically apply to the State. This is worse than anything theonomy ever thought up.


----------



## SRoper

I think Mark was talking about the Church in that post, not the State.


----------



## SRoper

puritan lad said:


> What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.
> 
> Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others).



You are confusing regulative with normative. In any case, Scripture acknowledges that the State has the power to levy taxes, so how can such taxes be theft?


----------



## RamistThomist

SRoper said:


> I think Mark was talking about the Church in that post, not the State.



No, I believe some were claiming that the State has the right to take, by threat of force, money from its citizens to give to whomever it deems poor.


----------



## RamistThomist

SRoper said:


> puritan lad said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.
> 
> Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing regulative with normative. In any case, Scripture acknowledges that the State has the power to levy taxes, so how can such taxes be theft?
Click to expand...


Scripture also views both high taxes and unjust taxation as an evil and a judgment on a pagan culture (1 Samuel, the inaguration of Saul as King).


----------



## Mushroom

When I'm feeling sorry for myself, or looking down on those less fortunate as though the fact that their condition is likely due to their own sinful and foolish choices, I remember my own sinful and foolish choices, and a little old Indonesian widow I once heard of that converted to the faith late in her life. She earned her bread by carrying a large, square tin of kerosene on her back in a sling that was wrapped around her forehead and selling small amounts to people for cooking use door to door. She often spilled a little on herself when slinging it on her back, and her skin was disentegrating in those areas. Yet she always would "cast her farthing" into the Church collection every Lord's day.

When I consider that there are sisters of mine (and brothers) in this world that endure such harsh conditions, my heart breaks and I am convicted of my own whiny, selfish expectations for myself. Why do I deserve better? Do I work harder? I think not. Am I more righteous? I doubt that. Am I wiser? Doubt that, too. Has God blessed me in spite of the fact that I am undeserving? Yes. Does He expect anything of me in light of that? Yes:


> 1Jn 3:16-18 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. (17) But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? (18) Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.


I spent 10 years of my formative years (ages 7-16) in Asia where I witnessed real, ugly poverty everyday that Americans are for the most part unfamiliar with. Whole communities of families living under bridges and bathing in filthy rivers. Huge numbers of orphaned street urchins surviving off what they could scavenge out of trash. I was present when a worker's wife at a nearby construction site gave birth in a shanty there. I saw old men and small children begging in the streets everywhere. What always amazed me was the attitudes of the pagan people who were better off than the multitudes of the impoverished. They presumed that they were better people, of better lineage, of better behavior, etc., and therefore deserving of their superior condition.

Not much different from me, at times. I need to repent.


----------



## ZackF

*Social Justice vs. Social Mercy*

This isn't a direct answer to your question but I don't think discussion on the subject of poverty alleviation is always framed correctly. In general most people both in and out of the Church fail to distinguish between justice and mercy. We often call a desired end such as alleviation of poverty, justice. Instead in many cases of poverty, unless an evil wrought the poverty from the outside of the downtrodden individual or community, the case for alleviation should be based on idea(s) of mercy. Now in many cases, such as the plight of blacks as a whole in the USA, social justice is a most appropriate category even though, in certain particular cases of individual blacks in poverty, the issues should to a greater degree be addressed from an angle of social mercy.


----------



## Pergamum

There are enough needs going around that if anyone out there has a problem about a particular issue (eg., poor blacks in America not being a problem of social injustice but ingrained social patterns, etc, whether real or imagined), there are PLENTY of cases of the poor that can be helped where you do not have to ignore your politics, etc.

DOn't, tlike one cause...well, just give to another.


----------



## clstamper

AV1611 said:


> Seeing that we believe in total depravity which means people are naturally wicked, selfish etc I am suprised that many Calvinists have a _laissez-faire_ attitude.



The poor are an abstraction. I don't know "the poor." If there are people in my neck of the woods, that's different. I'm not feeding some charity bureaucracy if I can get away with it, be it public, private, or ecclesiastical.



AV1611 said:


> In the UK we have a free-at-the-point-of-use National Health Service and free-at-the-point-of-use education.



...and they are money pits. Not free, either. Inland Revenue rips into your paycheck. You don't need to state to pay for health care or education. Do you really want to defend the schools?


----------



## clstamper

Spear Dane said:


> If we gave it to Sudan then the military would take it away. It would be far more merciful to the Sudanese to kill the slavers, then give them the aid.



You'd send troops into an ethnic quagmire to die for Sudan? Not with my son you don't!


----------



## clstamper

puritan lad said:


> There is no such thing as "government funding" is regards to helping the poor. Instead, it is nothing more then theft via the strong arm of the state.



I hate these extremes! One side wants womb-to-the-tomb health care, a managerial welfare state, and "free" secularist public schools. The opposition wants NO public assistance whatsoever, which would eliminate "socialist" institutions like the fire brigade, the highway patrol and the state militia. This is nuts.


----------



## clstamper

Spear Dane said:


> No, I believe some were claiming that the State has the right to take, by threat of force, money from its citizens to give to whomever it deems poor.



I propose that the State may take, by threat of force, money from its citizens to maintain civil society and provide its functions of police, justice and defense. This includes help for certain extreme at-risk groups such as disaster victims, severely disabled orphans, and the criminally insane. This does not include transfer payments meant to appease false guilt, sanctimony or political maneuvering.

Still, this does not answer the question of what "we" must do for the poor.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

SRoper said:


> puritan lad said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.
> 
> Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing regulative with normative. In any case, Scripture acknowledges that the State has the power to levy taxes, so how can such taxes be theft?
Click to expand...


The state has authority to levy taxes for its legitimate functions (administration of justice, defence), not for all sorts of things which are none of its business. I once heard of a man in Sweden who was taxed 102% of his income; would PB members say that was theft?

Also, note that the magistrate is not to turn to the right hand or the left (Deut. 17:20), he is not to do anything outside his delegated sphere of authority. In other words: Sola Scriptura applies to the state.


----------



## RamistThomist

clstamper said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we gave it to Sudan then the military would take it away. It would be far more merciful to the Sudanese to kill the slavers, then give them the aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd send troops into an ethnic quagmire to die for Sudan? Not with my son you don't!
Click to expand...


Don't worry. I am a non-interventionist. The point I was making is that it is absurd to give relief money to foreign countries when it will only end up in the hands of dictatorial slavers. This is why 99.99% of welfare reforms/programs fail.


----------



## Pergamum

WHat should the church do for the poor? Let's forget about taxes, Ron Paul and all that stuff for awhile....

What should our churches do for the poor, who are the poor, how should we help, etc...


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> WHat should the church do for the poor? Let's forget about taxes, Ron Paul and all that stuff for awhile....
> 
> What should our churches do for the poor, who are the poor, how should we help, etc...



This is of more practical concern to us rather than abstract talk about the role of the state; if we were doing our duties correctly, I dare say state welfare would never have got of the ground.


----------



## etexas

Daniel Ritchie said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> puritan lad said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is sin? The Bible says that it is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If there is no regulative principle of government, then the government cannot sin. Thus, Caesar is free to do whatever his heart desires.
> 
> Of course there is a regulative principle of government (Leviticus 19:15, Deut. 16:18-20, Mark 6:18, Romans 13:1-4, and many others).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing regulative with normative. In any case, Scripture acknowledges that the State has the power to levy taxes, so how can such taxes be theft?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The state has authority to levy taxes for its legitimate functions (administration of justice, defence), not for all sorts of things which are none of its business. I once heard of a man in Sweden who was taxed 102% of his income; would PB members say that was theft?
> 
> Also, note that the magistrate is not to turn to the right hand or the left (Deut. 17:20), he is not to do anything outside his delegated sphere of authority. In other words: Sola Scriptura applies to the state.
Click to expand...

I wonder how the guy paid 102% that is crazy!


----------



## RamistThomist

etexas said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing regulative with normative. In any case, Scripture acknowledges that the State has the power to levy taxes, so how can such taxes be theft?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The state has authority to levy taxes for its legitimate functions (administration of justice, defence), not for all sorts of things which are none of its business. I once heard of a man in Sweden who was taxed 102% of his income; would PB members say that was theft?
> 
> Also, note that the magistrate is not to turn to the right hand or the left (Deut. 17:20), he is not to do anything outside his delegated sphere of authority. In other words: Sola Scriptura applies to the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wonder how the guy paid 102% that is crazy!
Click to expand...


With the Leviathan State all things are possible.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

> I wonder how the guy paid 102% that is crazy!



I have no idea; maybe they took more cash out of his bank account.


----------



## etexas

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I wonder how the guy paid 102% that is crazy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea; maybe they took more cash out of his bank account.
Click to expand...

Brutal!


----------



## Anton Bruckner

etexas said:


> I once heard of a man in Sweden who was taxed 102% of his income; would PB members say that was theft?


Wow, Wow, Wow.


----------



## Anton Bruckner

Pergamum said:


> WHat should the church do for the poor? Let's forget about taxes, Ron Paul and all that stuff for awhile....
> 
> What should our churches do for the poor, who are the poor, how should we help, etc...


preach the gospel, disciple them and provide responsible charity to its members first.

*James
1 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Acts Acts 6

1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.*

Case closed. The Church of Jesus should not be a victim of freeloaders. The Church of Jesus is akin to a Hospital where people come and are made whole then are sent out to live sanctified and holy lives.


----------



## RamistThomist

Slippery said:


> 2 Thessalonians 3:10
> For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.[/B]
> 
> Case closed. The Church of Jesus should not be a victim of freeloaders.



Excellent description!


----------



## py3ak

In Mexico most of the congregation is probably what could be considered "objectively" poor --no savings, no insurance, living hand-to-mouth. But they contribute generously not only to one another's needs, but even to one another's jollifications. We have a box where people put staples: when the box is full or when there's a particular need, we give it to the family. A lot of families in the church have gotten a boxful of food at one point or another. 

Paul was asked to remember the poor: and I know there was the whole specific Jew-Gentile situation going on there. But he didn't need to be asked: he was forward to do it. How many of us does that describe? Are we eager to remember the poor? Or would we rather not think about the fact that in Peru and Liberia and Cuba there are diligent, hardworking brethren who haven't the ability to get simple things that would help alleviate the violent health problems they are going through.

It is not that any of us, individually, can do everything. But do we even understand that the beautiful line "thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift" comes at the end of a celebration of the glorious effects of people giving even beyond their ability?

That being said, it is as well to be alert about the dangers of institutionalized charity: I have heard that much charitable aid, sent even by Christian organizations, to N. Korea goes to feed the army. I am not interested in feeding the instruments of the oppression of my brethren, and so enabling them to continue.


----------



## Amazing Grace

One thing that should be mentioned is there is little if any example of helping the poor pagan. This is where we cross the line into liberation theology and the wrong application of social justice. I do not "give" to any who are not believers in Christ as the Messiah.. This does not mean we turn our backs and treat them as unsavable, but financial support for the heathen is not present in the NT witness.


----------



## Pergamum

NOt give to any but the saved?


What about the Good Samaritan again?

It seems that anyone who is needy who God lays in our path is our responsibility. I am sure you would not check someone's church status if they were struck by a car and had no wallet and you had to pay to get them to a doctor.

As a regular principle we should look after the house of God first, but kindness to all seems God-glorifying.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

I wonder is Nicholas distinguishing between the poor unsaved and the destitute (such as the case of the Good Samiritan)?


----------



## Amazing Grace

Pergamum said:


> NOt give to any but the saved?
> 
> 
> What about the Good Samaritan again?
> 
> It seems that anyone who is needy who God lays in our path is our responsibility. I am sure you would not check someone's church status if they were struck by a car and had no wallet and you had to pay to get them to a doctor.
> 
> As a regular principle we should look after the house of God first, but kindness to all seems God-glorifying.



Pergy:

Did you see where I said this: _I do not "give" to any who are not believers in Christ as the Messiah.. This does not mean we turn our backs and treat them as unsavable, but financial support for the heathen is not present in the NT witness_

If one can show me a NT assembly commanded to financially help those who did not worship Christ as the Messiah, i will reconsider my point.

The good samaritan is an example of general benevolence. Just as GOd has a special love for His own, so should we. And God 'cares' for his creation as a general benevolence as a whole, therefore so should we..

Our church has a 'mission of the month' where we financially support a given cause. But we do not include anti Christ casues in this. We will not financially send money or whatever to a group of mohammed worshippers. Or any secular group as say the boy scouts.....


----------



## Pergamum

I am talking about "general benevolence" in this thread. As a church, money should be prioritized for evangelism. Outside your "giving" to the church, one gives to a great many causes. 

I see all kinds of verses in Scripture which speaks of giving to the poor, without asking their religious affiliation first.


----------



## RamistThomist

Galatians 6 speaks of primarily helping those of the household of faith. Sure, help the unbelievers, but not at the expense of your own family or your own church.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Spear Dane said:


> Galatians 6 speaks of primarily helping those of the household of faith. Sure, help the unbelievers, but not at the expense of your own family or your own church.



Exactly. AS well as in Acts also....

Pergy, there is not one verse that says the church must actively go into pagan nations and help them.

The verses always say, "The poor amongst you" So I will never send money to rebuild a mosque in Africa.

But I will support a missionary bringing the Gospel to them..

If there is among you a poor man, one of your brethren, in any of your towns within your land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him, and lend him sufficient for his need, what ever it may be. Take heed lest there be a base thought in your heart, and you say, 'The seventh year, the year of release is near,' and your eye be hostile to your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and it be sin in you. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him; because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, you shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in the land. (Deuteronomy 15:711)


1Tim. 5:16 "If any believing woman has relatives who are really widows, let her assist them; let the church not be burdened, so that it can assist those who are real widows.


This is first and foremost. Then Paul also commands us to help our enemies.. By doing this, will be as hot coals on his head..

Rom. 12:20 "No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." NRSV


----------



## BJClark

How many of our churches have a food pantry that if someone within our church body or even a visitor to our church body has such a need, it can be met? 

How many of our churches have a benevolence fund, to help assist it's members or others in our community when there is a financial need?

Even if they don't go to your church, you can still assist if there is a need...you can even point them in the direction of companies hiring if they are out of work...

Or what about hiring them part-time to help w/ maintence or things around the church building that need to be done (mowing the grass) and paying them for the work they do?

If you have a ministry such as one of these set up, maybe if they need training in order to get a job, you could use that ministry to help train them...and in essence also encouraging them to work for the assistance they recieve? (teaching them how to fish, as opposed to just giving them a fish)

We had a pastor come by and buy my husbands old, broken down car, so that he could use to help teach men Auto mechanics...which in turn gives these men some type of skill so they could get work (even if at a local jiffy lube) it's something..

If you need help in the church office, why not have someone in need to come in and help answer phones or file somethings...giving them office skills while also providing a little extra income for their families..

Or have them come in and help the cleaning crews..

There are lots of things we as a church could do...if there is someone who owns a construction company that you know maybe they are in need of Laborers, or clean up crews...and you could work something out with them...to hire them even if temporary until they get on their feet and some training..

Maybe work with local stores to see if they are hiring stock crews or whatever, and if someone comes in for assistance, send them that way...

There are lots of ways the church can help, and show God at work...if they are willilng to put forth the time and effort...


----------



## Amazing Grace

Pergamum said:


> I see all kinds of verses in Scripture which speaks of giving to the poor, without asking their religious affiliation first.



What version are you using, the Gustavo Gutierrez version?

Cmon pergy. Button up your shirt, your heart is falling out.

Support the advancement of the Gospel and believers first and foremost. Provide general benevolence for the rest. But one thing, do it in secret. Almsgiving for recognition or merit is a disgrace to the Gospel of Grace.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

It just occured to me, I am currently reading an excellent book on Christian charitable work; the volume is called _The Greatest is Charity_ by Ian Shaw (published by Evangelical Press) and is a biography of Andrew Reed, a Congregationalist minister in London who besides preaching the gospel (though which many were saved) was actively involved in orphanages etc.


----------



## k.seymore

So it seems like, based on the logic of a number of arguments just presented, that a family should first care for the needy in their own family, a church should first care for the needy in the church, and a country should first care for the... oh...


----------



## Amazing Grace

k.seymore said:


> So it seems like, based on the logic of a number of arguments just presented, that a family should first care for the needy in their own family, a church should first care for the needy in the church, and a country should first care for the... oh...



Exactly. Do one without completely neglecting the other... These are not only logical arguements, but scriptural.

Given the choice, what should a believer do?

1) Help a Christian family who just lost their home to fire?

2) Help a muslim family who just lost their home to fire?

Number one is the scriptural answer..

Acts 2:44-47: “And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.”


Acts 4:32 says that “...no one in this church claimed that any of his possessions was his own, ...but they shared everything they had.”


----------



## RamistThomist

While the OP should have made explicit the question "What is the *Christian churchgoer* to do for the poor?" This is a good question, but it shifted in meaning (both in the thread and in real life).

Now it became, "What is the Christian to do for the poor?" To which the question was clarified, "The Christian has an obligation to give to the poor." At this point, many seek the strongarm of the State to solve the poverty issue. The logic is simple:

1) Jesus hated capitalism.
2) Jesus loved the poor.
3) Jesus is called "Lord."
---------------
C1: Therefore, The Christian ought by taxpayer money support the poor.

We now have a Clint-Eastwood style Jesus, armed with a six shooter saying, "Go ahead, taxpayer, make my day."


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

> We now have a Clint-Eastwood style Jesus, armed with a six shooter saying, "Go ahead, taxpayer, make my day."



Did you find this in a Gary North book?


----------



## RamistThomist

Daniel Ritchie said:


> We now have a Clint-Eastwood style Jesus, armed with a six shooter saying, "Go ahead, taxpayer, make my day."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you find this in a Gary North book?
Click to expand...


I Have Some Questions for Jim Wallis, the American Evangelical Communitys Most Famous Promoter (There Are Very Few) of the Left-Wing Social Gospel Movement. He Never Answers These Questions. He Pretends I Do Not Exist. But I Do Exist, Unlike His Answ


----------



## Pergamum

Amazing Grace said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Galatians 6 speaks of primarily helping those of the household of faith. Sure, help the unbelievers, but not at the expense of your own family or your own church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. AS well as in Acts also....
> 
> Pergy, there is not one verse that says the church must actively go into pagan nations and help them.
> 
> The verses always say, "The poor amongst you" So I will never send money to rebuild a mosque in Africa.
Click to expand...



WHAT? WHo said I wanted you to help anyone build a mosque? At least represent my arguments right, brother. Straw men are easy to knock down.

If a Muslim was sick and dying and you could help, are you going to whip out those passages to deny him help and say "Go ahead and die...you're not of the household of faith."


Who is our neighbor now?


----------



## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Galatians 6 speaks of primarily helping those of the household of faith. Sure, help the unbelievers, but not at the expense of your own family or your own church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. AS well as in Acts also....
> 
> Pergy, there is not one verse that says the church must actively go into pagan nations and help them.
> 
> The verses always say, "The poor amongst you" So I will never send money to rebuild a mosque in Africa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT? WHo said I wanted you to help anyone build a mosque? At least represent my arguments right, brother. Straw men are easy to knock down.
> 
> If a Muslim was sick and dying and you could help, are you going to whip out those passages to deny him help and say "Go ahead and die...you're not of the household of faith."
> 
> 
> Who is our neighbor now?
Click to expand...


It's funny. You complain about straw men and then immediately erect the most bogus and emotional of straw men. Your position at the time seemed to support that we should help the poor in abstract. Which means giving money/supplies to them. If you give money to them, who is to say they can't build a mosque?

As to your straw-men, of course, we should help him. I work with some Muslims and they are, civicly speaking, the finest of citizens. I would gladly aid them in even light circumstances. But institutionally, no, I would not give money to the Muslim cause.


----------



## Pergamum

Jacob: Ha, your sort of funny yourself...always trying to teach everyone logic here...

This is no straw man, this is reality over here. I also don't know of any abstract poor people. Each one has a face and real needs. 

If a man is sick in a bed and has no food (not a hypothetical but a real example on a number of occasions) if you give him a bag of rice or a few bills, I am thinking that he isn't going out to support the Jihad. 


Is this man your neighbor?


----------



## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Jacob: Ha, your sort of funny yourself...always trying to teach everyone logic here...
> 
> This is no straw man, this is reality over here. I also don't know of any abstract poor people. Each one has a face and real needs.
> 
> If a man is sick in a bed and has no food (not a hypothetical but a real example on a number of occasions) if you give him a bag of rice or a few bills, I am thinking that he isn't going out to support the Jihad.
> 
> 
> Is this man your neighbor?



Of course. Every one of we "evil" capitalists on PB would say he is. You picked an extreme example which missed everyone on the board. That being said, we do not institutionally, whether church or state, give our money to the poor in the abstract--well, we should not anyway.


----------



## Pergamum

Who said I was advocating this?


----------



## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Who said I was advocating this?



I sort of pretended that this is your position. It's much easier for me to knock down.

Seriously, I thought I read a post of your's advocating something like this about 20 or 30 posts back.


----------



## Pergamum

I think we would agree that "the poor" is never an abstract term. We live among people and many of these people are unbeleivers and also needy. They get sick, they run out of money for medicine, etc. HOw are we to show them kindness? Again, who are our neighbors?



And, if you want to get the wider church involved: Suppose a tribe of people (rebdundant, I know) are being persecuted in SE Asia. You don't know any of them, but have credible sources to confirm the info. Most of this people group are Christian. They are being persecuted because they refuse to accept the majority religion (Islam). That sounds like a good casue to support.


----------



## Pergamum

Or suppose you yourself live overseas and a dengue outbreak happens around you. Many children are sick and you have the means to help many of these Muslim children. What are your responsibilites to your loe neighbors as you live among them?


----------



## BJClark

> It's funny. You complain about straw men and then immediately erect the most bogus and emotional of straw men. Your position at the time seemed to support that we should help the poor in abstract. Which means giving money/supplies to them. If you give money to them, who is to say they can't build a mosque?



Well, if they are in need of money...what is it they need the money for?? If they need money to help pay an electric bill..provide the electric bill and I'll see about writing a check to the electric company...that way, I know it's going there and not being spent foolishly..

If they are in need of food...okay..I can go to the store and buy some groceries...

We need to be wise in our giving...and if there is a need they are seeking help for..they shouldn't be afraid to provide some type of proof towards that end..


----------



## BJClark

Pergamum;



> I think we would agree that "the poor" is never an abstract term. We live among people and many of these people are unbeleivers and also needy. They get sick, they run out of money for medicine, etc. HOw are we to show them kindness? Again, who are our neighbors?



You could pay for their medicine..that would certainly show them kindness and love..


----------



## Mushroom

Lev 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Deu 10:18-19 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. (19) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deu 24:17-22 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge: (18) But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing. (19) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands. (20) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. (21) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. (22) And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.


----------



## RamistThomist

Do passages from the Old testament law for the Israelite Theocracy count? Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## k.seymore

Brad said:


> Lev 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
> 
> Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
> 
> Deu 10:18-19 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. (19) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
> 
> Deu 24:17-22 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge: (18) But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing. (19) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands. (20) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. (21) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. (22) And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.



And not only that, but here's God's charge against a foreign nation in Ezekiel:

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy." (Ezek 16:49)

And what nation does that sound like in our day? 
Prideful nations with plenty of food and prosperity that don't help the poor and needy are Sodomites.


----------



## Pergamum

Yes , being eager to give does not mean just throwing money at whinos. 

Proofs can and should be demanded that your intent was met. 

And yes, sometimes, giving is not an act of mercy and love at all and the most loving thing you can do to some people is give them a swift dose of real life (i.e. if your lazy, you go hungry..)..

..BUt, all too often, in the US where even the welfare mommas live better than the middle class in most 3rd world countries, many times when the subject of giving comes up, people give all the reasons not to give and very little creative ways to give despite the difficulties this entails.


The replies are always, Yes, but...Yes, but...Yes, but...


How do your churches meet the general benevolence needs of the poor in your community and in the world? How do you personally help when confronted by poverty and need? What is our duty, our privelege, and our choice as far as giving?


And I do not exagerrate when I write that EVERY time this subject has come up on this board or in a church setting, there are people that blame the poor, voice their disdain for gov't aid to poor countries, welfare stamps, etc, and quote "the poor are always with you" quote. THis is no exagerration, but a sad fact. Why are we so knee-jerk when it comes to this subject. ONe need not be a bleeding heart liberal to care for the poor.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Spear Dane said:


> Do passages from the Old testament law for the Israelite Theocracy count? Sorry, couldn't resist.



Jacob, do you not realise that the "general equity" of those passages means that we should have a Welfare State?


----------



## Mushroom

Spear Dane said:


> Do passages from the Old testament law for the Israelite Theocracy count? Sorry, couldn't resist.


I dunno. Just posted them to see what reaction they wouldbring.


> Jacob, do you not realise that the "general equity" of those passages means that we should have a Welfare State?


Interesting position.

I'm not sure of my own position... it waffles... but since I tend to agree with theonomy while not really fully grasping its implications, perhaps you're right in some form?

Could it be that the 'human condition' is ordained by God? Undoubtably. For what reason? His glory comes to mind. I suppose the answer to the cunundrum lies in what actions on our part are most glorifying to God. Struggling as we are prone to do with sin, foolishness, legalistic 'duties' to earn favor, antinomian flippancy, selfishness, and all the other maladies of the flesh, I find determining those actions to be difficult.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Brad said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do passages from the Old testament law for the Israelite Theocracy count? Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. Just posted them to see what reaction they wouldbring.
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob, do you not realise that the "general equity" of those passages means that we should have a Welfare State?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting position.
> 
> I'm not sure of my own position... it waffles... but since I tend to agree with theonomy while not really fully grasping its implications, perhaps you're right in some form?
Click to expand...


Please note I am jesting: no welfare state in Israel, no welfare state today.


----------



## Mushroom

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Please note I am jesting: no welfare state in Israel, no welfare state today.


I knew that, Daniel. I was teasin' a little.


----------



## VictorBravo

Brad said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do passages from the Old testament law for the Israelite Theocracy count? Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. Just posted them to see what reaction they wouldbring.
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob, do you not realise that the "general equity" of those passages means that we should have a Welfare State?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting position.
> 
> I'm not sure of my own position... it waffles... but since I tend to agree with theonomy while not really fully grasping its implications, perhaps you're right in some form?
Click to expand...


He is right in some form. I agree the general equity did not mandate a Welfare State as it is understood these days, but the laws about gleaning and leaving the corners of your fields for the poor certainly seem to be civil-type laws. Following this principle, I think general equity does support the authority of the civil magistrate to impose laws controlling, _in part_, what you do with your profits and property so that it benefits the poor.

I say this with some fear and trembling, because I'm a small-government old-school classical liberal (small L libertarian) who thinks that the current income tax structure and socialist redistribution scheme is basically humanistic evil.


----------



## Pergamum

If the "right" of governments is to protect its citizens I would think keping them from starving would rank up there as a legitimate sphere of gov't. The OT gleaning thing does seem to be civil.


----------



## VictorBravo

k.seymore said:


> And not only that, but here's God's charge against a foreign nation in Ezekiel:
> 
> "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy." (Ezek 16:49)
> 
> And what nation does that sound like in our day?
> Prideful nations with plenty of food and prosperity that don't help the poor and needy are Sodomites.



I'm not so sure if this can fairly be laid against the US. True, US government spending on foreign aid is lower on a percentage of GNP basis than some European countries, but private aid by US citizens, last time I looked, is much higher on an income basis than most other countries. It seems that private US citizens are quite generous, and the private generosity is more likely to accomplish the aim better than government spending.

I'm not arguing that our country will be saved by the works of its citizens , merely that we may not be as bad or as haughty, privately, as is portrayed by our government's public actions.


----------



## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> If the "right" of governments is to protect its citizens I would think keping them from starving would rank up there as a legitimate sphere of gov't. The OT gleaning thing does seem to be civil.



You do realize that if you asssume the continuing validity of those passages to which you are referring, that makes you a theonomist. You are quoting passages that only apply to the civil sphere of Israel. Israel was a theocracy, remember.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Spear Dane said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the "right" of governments is to protect its citizens I would think keping them from starving would rank up there as a legitimate sphere of gov't. The OT gleaning thing does seem to be civil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that if you asssume the continuing validity of those passages to which you are referring, that makes you a theonomist. You are quoting passages that only apply to the civil sphere of Israel. Israel was a theocracy, remember.
Click to expand...


As far as I am aware there was no civil penalty in Israel for not helping the poor; those who disobeyed the laws concerning gleaning were sinning, but they were not committing a crime. Moreover, does the example of Ruth and Boaz not suggest that the field owner had a right to decide who could glean? Also gleaning is hard work; so it can't be compared to Statist Welfare.


----------



## Pergamum

Spear Dane: I thought this was a thread on poverty.

Isn't there still a moratorium on theonomy here?



Also, theonomy is not a monolithic group. And many people see differently as far as interpreting "general equity"...and I throw you guys wearing Bahnsen glasses and seeing everything through the lens of theonomy a bone sometimes...


It DOES appear part of the CIVIL law doesn't it?


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

> It seems that private US citizens are quite generous, and the private generosity is more likely to accomplish the aim better than government spending.





This is definitely correct; wealth redistribution by the civil government cannot work because (a) most of the money goes to fund the ever increasing bureacracy needed to carry it out, and (b) what will the state do when all the redistributed money is spent, as it will have no-one left to steal from.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> Spear Dane: I thought this was a thread on poverty.
> 
> Isn't there still a moratorium on theonomy here?
> Also, theonomy is not a monolithic group. And many people see differently as far as interpreting "general equity"...and I throw you guys wearing Bahnsen glasses and seeing everything through the lens of theonomy a bone sometimes...
> It DOES appear part of the CIVIL law doesn't it?



I think Theonomists would only say it was a civil law if you can prove (either by explicit statement or valid logical deduction) that a civil penalty is attached to a violation of that part of God's moral law. My view is that God will judge those who neglect the poor by means other than the civil magistrate.


----------



## VictorBravo

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the "right" of governments is to protect its citizens I would think keping them from starving would rank up there as a legitimate sphere of gov't. The OT gleaning thing does seem to be civil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that if you asssume the continuing validity of those passages to which you are referring, that makes you a theonomist. You are quoting passages that only apply to the civil sphere of Israel. Israel was a theocracy, remember.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as I am aware there was no civil penalty in Israel for not helping the poor; those who disobeyed the laws concerning gleaning were sinning, but they were not committing a crime. Moreover, does the example of Ruth and Boaz not suggest that the field owner had a right to decide who could glean? Also gleaning is hard work; so it can't be compared to Statist Welfare.
Click to expand...


It's a good question whether the gleaning laws are civil or moral or both. That should probably be taken up on a different thread. It does address the original question about whether we ought to provide resources for the poor, and gives some insight in the proper method (they, if they were able-bodied, had to do the gathering).

Pergy, fear not, the moratiorium on theonomy was lifted  (I know you are fearless!). But I agee that it might be best for that discussion to be on another thread.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> If the "right" of governments is to protect its citizens I would think keping them from starving would rank up there as a legitimate sphere of gov't. The OT gleaning thing does seem to be civil.



By "protect" it is usually meant protect their person or property from harm by others who commit crimes against them (i.e. theft).


----------

