# Single Predestination?



## Scott Shahan (Mar 12, 2007)

Friends,

Does the Revealed Will of God just teach a single predestination or a double predestination? Is double predestination "read" into scripture? Does the Scripture really say that some are predestined to Hell? Is double predestination a product of man's reason/logic? Did Luther believe in double predestination? And if he did why do the "lutherans" not believe in it? Sorry for all of the questions........... I have just finished reading Calvins commentary on Romans 9, and have just wondered why those lutherans disagree with Calvin on his exposition of Romans 9.


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## Herald (Mar 12, 2007)

[bible]Jude 1:4[/bible]

[bible]Romans 11:7-8[/bible]

[bible]Romans 9:11-13[/bible]

[bible]John 17:12[/bible]

There is also a justifiable amount of common sense that goes into this as well. If there is a north, doesn't that automatically mean there is a south? If there is a right, isn't there a left? Well, if some are chosen, aren't some not chosen? If some are going to heaven, aren't some going to hell? 

Here is another way of looking at it. God has decided to rescue some, not all. All are under the wrath of God (Romans 1; Romans 3). According to His grace and mercy He has decided to save some (Eph. 2). The rest God has not chosen to save. They continue on the path of destruction. One can argue that this is a passive election, since God has not purposed them to hell, rather He has purposed to save His elect. Be that as it may, whether passive or active, God's will for each (elect and non) will be done.


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## Scott Shahan (Mar 12, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> [bible]Jude 1:4[/bible]
> 
> [bible]Romans 11:7-8[/bible]
> 
> ...




I agree Bill....

But they argue that it only says "north" and it doesn't say "south", they say that by you saying "south" your reading into the text. They (lutherans) say that I am using my "reason" by making it say, "south". Do they have a point?


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## Scott Shahan (Mar 12, 2007)

I guess I am just seeing that "reason" is something that some of my Lutheran brothers aren't interested in. And they seem to think that I am in the business of making "reason" into just another form of Idolatry. I am trying to understand how they refuse to accept Limited Atonement. Why is it that they don't want to connect the dots? I know they will say to me Scripture alone Scott, and Not Scripture + your reason..... We fundementally believe different and there cannot be any unity whatsoever. I thought that Luther believed in Original sin. What is the difference between the doctrine of Original Sin and what is called Total Depravity? If Luther believed in Total Depravity how is it that these Lutherans can reject the Gospel, how do they give their "free will" that much power? Anyway they are kindof drivin me crazy Some of their comments to me..........

It is more beneficial to believe the promises of God than to worry about being elect. God has kept his foreknowledge (of who will be saved and who will not) secret for his own wisdom and has not revealed anything regarding it to us in his Word (much less commanded us to inquire into it with our own speculations) but instead earnestly warned against such inquiry (SEE ROM 11:33), we should not pursue the matter with our own speculations. We should not make our own deductions, form conclusions, or brood about this matter, but instead we should cling to His revealed Word to which He directs us. (Formula of Concord, SD, XI, 55) 

“The eternal election of God should be considered in Christ and not apart from or outside of Christ” see Eph 1:4 Notice that in the Scriptures when men are saved, grace (unmerited favor of God) is always the cause. Men have done nothing to earn salvation. But when men are condemned, the actions of man are mentioned. AFFIRMED is SINGLE PREDESTINATION! It is important to recognize and make sure that a distinction is made between God’s foreknowledge and preordination (election). Foreknowledge– God sees and knows everything before it happens. - This applies to all creatures, good and evil. - Mt 10:29; Ps 139:16; Isa 37:28 - God’s foreknowledge is not the cause of evil, for evil is caused by the perverted will of the devil and human beings. (Hos 13:9) - God has indeed known and determined for every believer the time and hour of calling and conversion. Because this has not been revealed to us, we must obey his command always to cling to the Word and to commend the time and hour to God (Acts 1:7) Eternal Election of God- Predestination, or preordination to salvation - This applies only to the children of God, who are chosen and predestined to eternal life. (Eph 1:4) 


- This not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect but is also a cause of our salvation and whatever pertains to it, on the basis of the good and gracious will and good pleasure of God in Christ Jesus. How this plays out in time:- God knows that evil will take place in time, but not in such a way that it was God’s will that it take place. - God sees the wicked wills of men and the devil, and in his foreknowledge He sets limits and boundaries for the evil which God does not will. - The evil is used for good. No one should consider this eternal election or God’s preordination to eternal life merely as the secret, inscrutable will or counsel of God, as if it had nothing more to it and nothing more to consider than that God perceived beforehand who and how many would be saved and who and how many would be damned. (Formula of Concord, SD, XI, 8) -

This kind of view (double-predestination) creates strange and harmful ideas. - Double predestination creates either false security or despair. o False security breeds impenitence which damns. Despair is never faithful and trusting in God, so it also damns. To counter this false teaching of “Double-Predestination”, I say along with the Formula of Concord XI that all Scripture is written by God for reproof, correction, and for improvement, not to drive us to despair but to create faith and hope in us. Single predestination is the Biblical way of doing just that. 

When discussing predestination, we should make sure we are dealing with the revealed Will of God, as found in Jesus Christ, not in the hidden counsels of the Trinity or in the hidden foreknowledge of God. We should focus on God’s counsel, intention, and preordination in Jesus Christ is revealed through the word. - 

Here is the problem with making the “formal principle” of theology the “Sovereignity of God” as Calvin and his followers do. It cause them to look at God in His nakedness, which leads to all kinds of idea and conjecture, which has not basis in truth and only leads people astray. - The way we look at God is as He has revealed Himself to us in Christ. This is why justification by grace through faith is so important to all aspects of theology. Without that, we don’t have anything to even theologize about! Without justification, we are diving into an area of unknown space where there is no solid truth or basis for faith.

SALVATION IS PREDESTINED, DAMNATION IS FOREKNOWN, there is a big difference. - This also causes a big difference in how God is viewed. (Do we look at God as revealed, or as we have wandered into the hidden God, the God we cannot see and conjectured?) - Matt 22:14 many called but few chosen. A lot of the problem here is the view of man: Calvin, and his followers believe that man is absolutely bound in all things to the Sovereign will of God. If man is elect, then he cannot fall away into condemnation. Arminians take the opposite view that man is completely free in all things and makes up his mind as he goes. Lutherans affirm that in spiritual matters, man is bound to the wicked, and only the Holy Spirit can create saving faith and free man from evil bondage. Man has the ability to reject the Gospel. Many OT examples could be listed of people being able to resist the Word of God. This doesn’t mean that the Word wasn’t meant for them, or else why would they be hearing it? It would be a waste of a prophets time to speak a message meant for another audience to a certain people.


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## Machaira (Mar 12, 2007)

Scott Shahan said:


> Friends,
> 
> Does the Revealed Will of God just teach a single predestination or a double predestination? Is double predestination "read" into scripture? Does the Scripture really say that some are predestined to Hell? Is double predestination a product of man's reason/logic? Did Luther believe in double predestination? And if he did why do the "lutherans" not believe in it? Sorry for all of the questions........... I have just finished reading Calvins commentary on Romans 9, and have just wondered why those lutherans disagree with Calvin on his exposition of Romans 9.



For what its worth, here is Westminster Larger Catechism question #13 with Biblical proof.



> Q. 13. What hath God especially decreed concerning angels and men?
> 
> A. God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of his mere love, for the praise of his glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, hath elected some angels to glory;*[45]* and in Christ hath chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof:*[46]* and also, according to his sovereign power, and the unsearchable counsel of his own will, (whereby he extendeth or withholdeth favor as he pleaseth,) hath passed by and foreordained the rest to dishonor and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of his justice.*[47]*
> 
> *[47] Romans 9:17-18, 21-22.* For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.... Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. *Matthew 11:25-26.* At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. *2 Timothy 2:20.* But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. *Jude 4.* For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. *1 Peter 2:8.* And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


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## Chris (Mar 12, 2007)

> Do they have a point?



In a word, no. 

They have a theological dilemma and instead of taking the Scripture fork, as outlined by Bill, they took the 'don't offend anyone' fork. 

I used to post on another board, and there was a lutheran guy who got really annoying, as he wouldn't accept DP. As Bill has pointed out, it is there, very clearly, in Scripture. As mentioned above, Romans makes reference to Pharoah. It might be good to actually go back to Exodus and read the story of Pharoah, up to the point of being drowned. The idea that God decreed Pharoah's death is there pretty clearly.


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## Scott Shahan (Mar 12, 2007)

Chris said:


> In a word, no.
> 
> They have a theological dilemma and instead of taking the Scripture fork, as outlined by Bill, they took the 'don't offend anyone' fork.
> 
> I used to post on another board, and there was a lutheran guy who got really annoying, as he wouldn't accept DP. As Bill has pointed out, it is there, very clearly, in Scripture. As mentioned above, Romans makes reference to Pharoah. It might be good to actually go back to Exodus and read the story of Pharoah, up to the point of being drowned. The idea that God decreed Pharoah's death is there pretty clearly.



They seem to say, man can't believe (total depravity), then once man believes by God's Grace he can now resist the Grace of God. Why would one resist the Grace of God if one Believes? It doesn't make sense to me.....can anyone help?


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## Ambrose (Mar 12, 2007)

Scott Shahan said:


> They seem to say, man can't believe (total depravity), then once man believes by God's Grace he can now resist the Grace of God. Why would one resist the Grace of God if one Believes? It doesn't make sense to me.....can anyone help?



Scott, the two most helpful documents for you in discussing this point with Lutherans are probably The Bondage of the Will and the article on Free Will in the Formula of Concord ( Solid Declaration).


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