# the lady



## Scott (Mar 16, 2006)

Who is the lady and her children John is writing to in 1 John?


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## satz (Mar 16, 2006)

An anonymous christian lady from the early church?

In all seriousness, i think if certain details are not revealed to us from scripture, then they are not important to know.

I do think though that this was an actual human being, and not a church as some have proposed.


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## RamistThomist (Mar 16, 2006)

If it is a real lady then it appears she is in some kind of ecclesiastical authority.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> If it is a real lady then it appears she is in some kind of ecclesiastical authority.



Could you elaborate?

I don't see how...


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## RamistThomist (Mar 16, 2006)

1. Its written to a church.
2. Lady (leader), then her children (parishioners)
3. Therefore, she is in ecclesiasitical authority.

But I don't hold to this view. I think the "lady" and "sister" refer to congregational bodies.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2006)

I think that unless there is good reason to think otherwise, we should assume 'lady' is exactly what it means, a flesh and blood human being.

I really cannot see any thing in this short letter that would lead us to think John was writing figuratively to a church.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Who is the lady and her children John is writing to in 1 John?



I think you mean 2 John, correct?



> 2 Jo 1: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;



Matthew Henry [John Reynolds] on 2 John 1:



> II. The saluted"”a noble Christian matron, and her children: To the elect lady and her children. A lady, a person of eminent quality for birth, education, and estate. It is well that the gospel has got among such. It is a pity but lords and ladies should be acquainted with the Lord Christ and his religion. They owe more to him than others do; though usually not many noble are called. Here is a pattern for persons of quality of the same sex. The elect lady; not only a choice one, but one chosen of God. It is lovely and beautiful to see ladies, by holy walking, demonstrate their election of God. And her children; probably the lady was a widow; she and her children then are the principal part of the family, and so this may be styled an economical epistle. Families may well be written to and encouraged, and further directed in their domestic love, and order, and duties. We see that children may well be taken notice of in Christian letters, and they should know it too; it may avail to their encouragement and caution. Those who love and commend them will be apt to enquire after them. This lady and her children are further notified by the respect paid them, and that,...



Matthew Poole [] on 2 John 1:



> 2 John 1. The elder; a general name of office, fitly appropriated with eminency here, he being the only apostle, probably, now surviving on earth. The elect lady; this appears to have been some noted person, whom both her singular piety, and rank in the world, made eminent, and capable of having great influence for the support of the Christian interest, which her general value with all that had known the truth, (i.e. the Christians in those parts,) shows. The opinion that a church is intended by this appellation, had it greater probability, is of no great importance, and need not here be disputed.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 16, 2006)

I pretty much agree with Poole by default, so ditto to Andrew.


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## Scott (Mar 17, 2006)

Why would John not use her name?


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## Scott (Mar 17, 2006)

The lady and her children sounds a bit like the way the church is described in Revelation 12, as a glorious woman whose children are all "who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Rev. 12:17.


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## satz (Mar 18, 2006)

Hi Scott,

As some commentators have noted, it does not change the main message of the book too much whether it is a woman or a church who is addressed. However, some reasons why i think it is a human female;

Revelations is a book full of imagery and visions, and we are specifically told that John was viewing a 'wonder in heaven' when he sees the church depicted as a woman in Revelation 12. 2 John on the other hand is personal, direct letter. There is nothing to indicate that John is using imagery or metaphors here.

Apart from the fact that she is not named, i do not see why we would think the elect lady was a church. It is a very strange way of writing a personal letter to say the least. We see in v4 the letter is to the elect lady and her children. If children are church members, then who is the 'lady' who is set apart as a seperate entity?

Also,

2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. (KJV)

The ESV has;
I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.

How is it a cause for rejoicing if _some_ of a church's members are walking in the truth? Should not the goal of a church to have ALL its members walking in truth?

The short lenght of the letter as well as some of the terms of address ('speak face to face' v 12) all seem to me more suited for a personal letter rather than an epistle to a church. This book is nothing like Paul's epistles or John's first one. But is is very similar to John's personal letter to Gaius in 3 John. And if we see the elect lady as a real lady, than we have a nice couplet of 2 personal letters from the apostle john, one to a man and one to a woman.






[Edited on 3-18-2006 by satz]

[Edited on 3-18-2006 by satz]


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## Scott (Mar 20, 2006)

Some portions of the prophetic literature address Israel as a personified woman (typically one of ill repute). Seem relevant too.


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