# Psychopathy, Crime, & Christianity



## JohnGill (Jun 16, 2012)

Some questions I've been thinking about for a while now with regards to psychopathy & sin and how psychopathy should be defined under Christianity, if at all. And of course how someone who is classified as a psychopath would change if saved. Would such a person necessarily "feel" empathy after salvation or would they instead look to scripture for guidance on how they should behave in certain situations and act accordingly though never feeling the empathetic? Would their inherent boredom with life in general be replaced by finding an intellectually stimulating part of Christianity to master, a sort of seeking for puzzles? Or should a person who meets the mental health definition for a psychopath be labelled under the generic title "sinner" and the title of "psychopath" be reserved for those who fall under the category mentioned in Romans 1:21-32; Hebrews 6:4-6?

I've also been thinking about how to define the motivation for a criminal behavior. Psychology being based on evolutionism and its inherent rejection of Christianity has not, and cannot, provide a reliable foundation for the why of criminal behavior. Criminal profiling has for years been shown to be nothing more an example of subjective validation and about as scientific as the lie detector test or tarot card reading. Profiling is about as reliable, and sometimes less so, than consulting a psychic. Pick a serial killer and I bet he lives or has lived near a body of water. Ironically some "psychics" have had better hits than the FBIs BSU. Another example of the Barnum effect at work. And then, directly contrary to the doctrine of original sin, there is the assumed goodness of human nature which often causes law enforcement to ignore a valid suspect and pursue an untenable suspect because of confirmation bias.

How could we as Christians bring the field of forensic pathology or criminal detection under the authority of Christ? How do we think God's thoughts after him in such a field? Or more broadly, how do we think God's thoughts after him in joining one idea to the next while avoiding such things as subjective validation, confirmation bias, and self-deception? 

Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## OPC'n (Jun 17, 2012)

I think you have to decide if you believe that mental health is actually a brain disease (i do) or not. They have been able to do brain autopsies on some psychopaths and have found some differences that stand them apart from the rest of society. I wouldn't throw it under the authority of Christ any faster than I would throw heart disease etc (everything is under his authority anyway). One sin, small or big, gets you a one way ticket to hell, so the psychopath and cardiac patient will go there just as fast if they are not saved. Actually, if the cardiac patient has heard the Gospel and the psychopath never did....the cardiac patient will burn hotter, bc as bad as it is to kill everyone you meet it's worse to hear the Gospel and reject it. Just goes to show the Gospel is really what's most important....sorry I strayed a bit. If you don't believe it's a disease, then throw it under the authority of Christ like all sin and he will deal with it in his own way. Now just bc i think that it really is a disease doesn't mean i think he's innocent of his actions and shouldn't be locked away for good to protect society.....i certainly do. I'm not sure there is medication that helps those type of ppl so not much you can do for them. It's a terrible thing to have any disease but a brain disease i think is the worse. I see patients who were pleasant and served God and then got dementia turn mean, hateful, and sometimes very dangerous. The brain really is so very complex. 

BUT hey, JohnGill, long time no si?


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 17, 2012)

JohnGill said:


> how someone who is classified as a psychopath would change if saved.



Aren't we all psycopath's? Our sins are just related to what Roman's chapter 1 says. How do I change my heart and the convictions it hold? Still learning it. It is from God. But we do have means or causes we are commanded to seek. Do they always work? Yes, by God's grace and not our own seeking. That is the hard part. But I do know if we seek God sincerely he will do and deliver.


----------



## JohnGill (Jun 17, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> I think you have to decide if you believe that mental health is actually a brain disease (i do) or not. They have been able to do brain autopsies on some psychopaths and have found some differences that stand them apart from the rest of society. I wouldn't throw it under the authority of Christ any faster than I would throw heart disease etc (everything is under his authority anyway). One sin, small or big, gets you a one way ticket to hell, so the psychopath and cardiac patient will go there just as fast if they are not saved. Actually, if the cardiac patient has heard the Gospel and the psychopath never did....the cardiac patient will burn hotter, bc as bad as it is to kill everyone you meet it's worse to hear the Gospel and reject it. Just goes to show the Gospel is really what's most important....sorry I strayed a bit. If you don't believe it's a disease, then throw it under the authority of Christ like all sin and he will deal with it in his own way. Now just bc i think that it really is a disease doesn't mean i think he's innocent of his actions and shouldn't be locked away for good to protect society.....i certainly do. I'm not sure there is medication that helps those type of ppl so not much you can do for them. It's a terrible thing to have any disease but a brain disease i think is the worse. I see patients who were pleasant and served God and then got dementia turn mean, hateful, and sometimes very dangerous. The brain really is so very complex.
> 
> BUT hey, JohnGill, long time no si?



The problem I have with classifying psychopathy as a brain problem is the lack of evidence in all cases. The disagreement in the field is a result of of brain examinations of psychopaths that have no abnormalities. If we claim it's a brain abnormality causing it, then we must conclude as PuritanCovenanter stated, that all of us are psychopaths. After all, since we have psychopaths with normal brains, and if we wish to blame psychopathy on a brain defect, then we must also be willing to blame psychopathy on having a normal brain. And then there is the issue of which came first, the behavior or the abnormality. It depends upon whom you ask. If we state that psychopath's behavior that is criminal is due to some abnormality in the brain, then we cannot punish him under the law for any crime he commits and we say in effect, he commits no sin. And we cannot lock him away if it is due to a physical reason, unless we wish to lock away everyone who is shown to have some physical abnormality such as the lame, the blind, etc. As to locking away all psychopaths would be monstrous , even if in every instance it was caused by an abnormality. Not all psychopaths engage in criminal behavior. We find psychopaths serving as police officers, ceo of companies, lawyers, etc. And yet they live within the confines of society's laws. A brain ravaged by syphillis leaves the person in the same state as one who suffers from dementia. But we also have people who's brains have been ravaged by Alzheimer's and yet they have their full mental faculties. 

But what I was asking is whether or not we should change how we label psychopaths and make such a definition more in line with scripture. And more so, How could we as Christians bring the field of forensic pathology or criminal detection under the authority of Christ? How do we think God's thoughts after him in such a field? Or more broadly, how do we think God's thoughts after him in joining one idea to the next while avoiding such things as subjective validation, confirmation bias, and self-deception?

I've been around off and on, how have you been?


----------



## JohnGill (Jun 17, 2012)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> > how someone who is classified as a psychopath would change if saved.
> ...



By the definition used, no. The Hare Psychopathy Checklist gives the criteria that is used. My question with regards to the above verses deals with the "lack of empathy and remorse for one's actions" found in those called psychopaths. And whether we attribute it to just a sin hardened heart, or an unredeemable heart, or could the term but used to describe both and therefore need further clarification.

Regardless of how we classify the term "psychopath", how do we accurately determine the underlying motivation for a crime and from there deduce the offender of said crime? Assume psychopaths all have a brain defect, does that make them any more likely to kill than a mother of four? I think the Bible teaches no. And we find in our world that sometimes it wasn't the "psychopath" that killed, but instead it was the mother of four who would be classified as normal.

I've been reading books on psychology and offender profiling of late, and the attempts to deduce the offender from the crime, reads like a poorly written book on the subject of cold reading. I think one would have more accuracy at determining who the offender is by simply employing the skills of psychics and mentalists. Thankfully many criminals are stupid.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 17, 2012)

As I said.... Aren't we all pscyopaths? 


JohnGill said:


> lack of empathy and remorse for one's actions



Even in the smallest amount. Btw, Your post is good. We are all Stupid if we don't... Walk in the Spirit. It is a fallen estate.


----------



## JohnGill (Jun 17, 2012)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> As I said.... Aren't we all pscyopaths?
> 
> 
> JohnGill said:
> ...



I should have been clearer when mentioning the lack of empathy and remorse. I was using that as a shorter description of the fuller description. So I would still say no. The HPC gives greater detail of what is needed for one to qualify as a psychopath. The average person scores about a 5 on the checklist, while a psychopath would be 30+. We all may exhibit such tendencies, these do not make us psychopaths. We may all experience depression, though this does not make us qualify for the diagnosis of manic depression. It's a group of characteristics that qualify one for manic depression just as a certain group of characteristics that qualify one for psychopathy. Of course I'm still left wondering can we have two different 30+ psychopaths, one redeemable and the other not? Or would a psychopath by definition fall into the unredeemable category? The next question I have would be, how would either scenario affect the way we understand the underlying motivation of a crime and would it help to catch the criminal?


----------



## Peairtach (Jun 17, 2012)

I thought "psychopathy" wasn't regarded as mental illness, as such, even by humanistic psychologists and psychiatrists.

So even by their standards it can be regarded as a moral - or rather immoral - state of mind.


----------



## FenderPriest (Jun 17, 2012)

I just did a simple search at the CCEF website and found this. I'd look in to CCEF resources and The Biblical Counseling Coalition. Hope this helps!

[video=vimeo;28416151]http://vimeo.com/28416151[/video]


----------



## OPC'n (Jun 17, 2012)

Well, that's a good video but again you would have to put that thinking to everyone. Is having a heart attack sinful...just as sinful as having a mental disease. I guess i don't understand why ppl have a hard time understanding that there are brain diseases/dysfunctions. All diseases are the result of the fall. I don't believe that if someone demonstrated throughout their life that they were a struggling Christian and then committed suicide they went to hell. The fact that the committed suicide only means they had a mental disease and Christ died for their sins at the cross and bought that forgiveness for them then. God commands that we daily confess our sins and ask for forgiveness bc it works on our hearts on being humbled, submissive, obedient, etc not because until you ask for forgiveness you're not forgiven. We are forgiven in Christ upon being received in him and bc of what he did at the cross. So unless a saved psychopath is healed of their dysfunction (yes there have been autopsy reports on them showing a differences in their frontal lobe than that of the rest of society) they probably are going to lack empathy for others, but we know they are not saved upon whether or not they have empathy for mankind. By God's grace, they stop killing. I do believe God's love worked inside their hearts can have a profound change in them ..... he's a pretty awesome God!


----------



## Peairtach (Jun 17, 2012)

I think the guy in the above video is talking about "psychopathology" which is something rather different to "psychopathy", hence he's talking about things like anorexia. 

Rather confusing of the trick-cyclists to have these similar sounding terms. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathology


----------



## Peairtach (Jun 17, 2012)

It is inceasingly recognised by psychologists and others that the brain is affected and changed by what we do. 

E.g. if someone learns to juggle, measurable changes can be seen in the brain. Taxi drivers who "do the Knowledge" i.e. memorise the streets of London, show marked physiological brain changes.

Neuroplasticity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Until around the 1970s, an accepted idea across neuroscience was that the nervous system was essentially fixed throughout adulthood, both in terms of brain functions, as well as the idea that it was impossible for new neurons to develop after birth



This has important implications regarding how spiritual choices can influence our brains. 
E.g. if I follow a particular sinful path e.g. sadism, homosexuality, lust, it is going to have an affect on my brain, encouraging my brain and body in that path.


----------



## arapahoepark (Jun 17, 2012)

Of course there are diseases of all sorts! But the fact of the matter is, OPC'n, is what is done with diseases that affect our behavior. I agree with what you say but, it is a pretty weak analogy to compare a heart condition to a mental illness. Heart conditions don't affect one's behavior (per se, I hope you know what I mean) whereas a mental illness does or is supposed to. I think what's being said here is that no matter our mental illness you are responsible and rightly so for what you do whether or not your screwed up brain told you to do it or not, whether or not you think it is right or not, whether you lack empathy or not. That is unfortunately, the heart of the matter with secular psychologists wanting to pardon nearly everyone and blame it on genetic determinism of sorts. I also think that having someone a Christian who also keeps struggling with really bizarre mental behaviors may or may not be saved. I am not sure how to put it, but clearly there is supposed to be a change in someone's life. If a serial killer (an extreme example I know) supposedly gets saved and he goes out a kills a few more...is he really saved despite his psychopathy that he can't seem to help nor can God for that matter?


----------



## OPC'n (Jun 17, 2012)

This link is long and could prove to be very boring to some, but I did learn a lot about psychopath studies. It's about abnormalities found on MRIs of the brain in this group of ppl (as well as other mentally ill patients) and not the conclusions of psychologists on the illnesses. It is very upfront and doesn't try to make a case for or against psychopaths, but only sets forth the facts found in the studies and also shows some of the downfalls with the studies. So very neutral.


----------



## OPC'n (Jun 17, 2012)

arap said:


> Of course there are diseases of all sorts! But the fact of the matter is, OPC'n, is what is done with diseases that affect our behavior. I agree with what you say but, it is a pretty weak analogy to compare a heart condition to a mental illness. Heart conditions don't affect one's behavior (per se, I hope you know what I mean) whereas a mental illness does or is supposed to. I think what's being said here is that no matter our mental illness you are responsible and rightly so for what you do whether or not your screwed up brain told you to do it or not, whether or not you think it is right or not, whether you lack empathy or not. That is unfortunately, the heart of the matter with secular psychologists wanting to pardon nearly everyone and blame it on genetic determinism of sorts. I also think that having someone a Christian who also keeps struggling with really bizarre mental behaviors may or may not be saved. I am not sure how to put it, but clearly there is supposed to be a change in someone's life. If a serial killer (an extreme example I know) supposedly gets saved and he goes out a kills a few more...is he really saved despite his psychopathy that he can't seem to help nor can God for that matter?



I guess what i was trying to say when comparing the two diseases was that both patients sin and why is it a greater offense to sin if you have a mental illness than it is if you have a heart disease? In fact, I would be harder on the clear-minded cardiac patient who got angry with someone and beat him to death than i would the mentally ill patient who hunted someone down and killed them. I think we are more fearful of the person who kills for no reason bc we can't "protect" ourselves from that type of person, whereas, if we don't make the cardiac patient angry we're safe from him killing us. It's a fear factor.


----------



## thbslawson (Jun 17, 2012)

We want things in nice neat little categories and it doesn't always work that way. It would be great if we could say "In Christ the depressed one never doubts, the alcoholic never wants another drink and the sex addict never again is tempted to look at p0rnography. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our behavior regardless of whether it _appears_ we have control over it or not. We're all guilty, born in sin, and in need of Christ. 

The connection between heart attack and mental illness isn't as disjointed as it may seem. But it's important to remember that one's physical or mental ability does not negate his culpability. Take, for instance, those born with mental handicaps. If a child with down syndrome throws a temper tantrum because he simply does not understand something, is he guiltless? Of course not. His temper tantrum is sin even if he doesn't know what he's doing. The child needs the blood of Christ to save him. So let's say for a moment that mental illnesses are real, biochemical problems in the brain (and I believe to a great degree they are, there's plenty of evidence to support it). If someone commits a sinful act because of his or her depression or psychopathy or whatever, he or she is still guilty and accountable for it. Whether or not he or she is aware of it or sees it as sinful is ultimately a moot point with God. 

Now a new heart changes things, but as with all believers, it will vary from person to person. For instance, I've seen alcoholics come to Christ and immediately never get drunk again, and I've seen some hack their way out of the pit of addiction for years, sometimes stumbling back, but longing for Christ and longing to overcome sin. We see time and time again throughout Scripture men and women redeemed of God yet still pressing on with feet of clay, some more pious than others, yet all with a heart of repentance. In short, in the midst of the "illness" whatever it may be, I believe a spirit of repentance and the fruit of the Spirit will be present and discernible. Progress may be fast or slow, but there will be progress.


----------



## arapahoepark (Jun 17, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> arap said:
> 
> 
> > Of course there are diseases of all sorts! But the fact of the matter is, OPC'n, is what is done with diseases that affect our behavior. I agree with what you say but, it is a pretty weak analogy to compare a heart condition to a mental illness. Heart conditions don't affect one's behavior (per se, I hope you know what I mean) whereas a mental illness does or is supposed to. I think what's being said here is that no matter our mental illness you are responsible and rightly so for what you do whether or not your screwed up brain told you to do it or not, whether or not you think it is right or not, whether you lack empathy or not. That is unfortunately, the heart of the matter with secular psychologists wanting to pardon nearly everyone and blame it on genetic determinism of sorts. I also think that having someone a Christian who also keeps struggling with really bizarre mental behaviors may or may not be saved. I am not sure how to put it, but clearly there is supposed to be a change in someone's life. If a serial killer (an extreme example I know) supposedly gets saved and he goes out a kills a few more...is he really saved despite his psychopathy that he can't seem to help nor can God for that matter?
> ...



I see what your saying now, fearful of something we can't understand.

Anyway, to your posted link I do agree some abnormal brain structures don't help anyway and can cause disease, but as Peairtach also posted neuroplasticity is real too. I also posted a link awhile back about Lumosity that takes into account that exact thing to better boost memory and problem solving skills. So it can't go both ways, what a person does will affect their brain and sometimes the structure of their brain can affect their behavior.



thbslawson said:


> We want things in nice neat little categories and it doesn't always work that way. It would be great if we could say "In Christ the depressed one never doubts, the alcoholic never wants another drink and the sex addict never again is tempted to look at p0rnography. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our behavior regardless of whether it appears we have control over it or not. We're all guilty, born in sin, and in need of Christ.
> 
> The connection between heart attack and mental illness isn't as disjointed as it may seem. But it's important to remember that one's physical or mental ability does not negate his culpability. Take, for instance, those born with mental handicaps. If a child with down syndrome throws a temper tantrum because he simply does not understand something, is he guiltless? Of course not. His temper tantrum is sin even if he doesn't know what he's doing. The child needs the blood of Christ to save him. So let's say for a moment that mental illnesses are real, biochemical problems in the brain (and I believe to a great degree they are, there's plenty of evidence to support it). If someone commits a sinful act because of his or her depression or psychopathy or whatever, he or she is still guilty and accountable for it. Whether or not he or she is aware of it or sees it as sinful is ultimately a moot point with God.
> 
> Now a new heart changes things, but as with all believers, it will vary from person to person. For instance, I've seen alcoholics come to Christ and immediately never get drunk again, and I've seen some hack their way out of the pit of addiction for years, sometimes stumbling back, but longing for Christ and longing to overcome sin. We see time and time again throughout Scripture men and women redeemed of God yet still pressing on with feet of clay, some more pious than others, yet all with a heart of repentance. In short, in the midst of the "illness" whatever it may be, I believe a spirit of repentance and the fruit of the Spirit will be present and discernible. Progress may be fast or slow, but there will be progress.



I agree. I just don't think that every time something is labelled a mental illness it is as is increasingly becoming the case to neglect responsibility. For instance, a wife dies and the husband is all depressed and has to be treated for it. What brought it about? His wife's death of course, it's not that he can't get out of it on his own, though for some maybe...Anyway, I am not sure where I was going with that but it's something to think about because all sorts of factors affect our behavior and behavior is not necessarily a disease, like I have said before, is starting to be predominate in areas of secular humanism.


----------



## OPC'n (Jun 17, 2012)

thbslawson said:


> We want things in nice neat little categories and it doesn't always work that way. It would be great if we could say "In Christ the depressed one never doubts, the alcoholic never wants another drink and the sex addict never again is tempted to look at p0rnography. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our behavior regardless of whether it _appears_ we have control over it or not. We're all guilty, born in sin, and in need of Christ.
> 
> The connection between heart attack and mental illness isn't as disjointed as it may seem. But it's important to remember that one's physical or mental ability does not negate his culpability. Take, for instance, those born with mental handicaps. If a child with down syndrome throws a temper tantrum because he simply does not understand something, is he guiltless? Of course not. His temper tantrum is sin even if he doesn't know what he's doing. The child needs the blood of Christ to save him. So let's say for a moment that mental illnesses are real, biochemical problems in the brain (and I believe to a great degree they are, there's plenty of evidence to support it). If someone commits a sinful act because of his or her depression or psychopathy or whatever, he or she is still guilty and accountable for it. Whether or not he or she is aware of it or sees it as sinful is ultimately a moot point with God.
> 
> Now a new heart changes things, but as with all believers, it will vary from person to person. For instance, I've seen alcoholics come to Christ and immediately never get drunk again, and I've seen some hack their way out of the pit of addiction for years, sometimes stumbling back, but longing for Christ and longing to overcome sin. We see time and time again throughout Scripture men and women redeemed of God yet still pressing on with feet of clay, some more pious than others, yet all with a heart of repentance. In short, in the midst of the "illness" whatever it may be, I believe a spirit of repentance and the fruit of the Spirit will be present and discernible. Progress may be fast or slow, but there will be progress.



You have said this way better than i was! Thank you!


----------



## Supersillymanable (Jun 17, 2012)

Doesn't the word Psychopathy come from two greek words meaning "soul suffering". Just thought that was interesting...


----------



## The Calvinist Cop (Jun 17, 2012)

> Thankfully many criminals are stupid.



It sure makes my job much easier..


----------



## thbslawson (Jun 18, 2012)

Let me add one more thing to what I've already stated. While sin is sin regardless of the reason or circumstances under which it was committed, knowing the reasons and circumstances can help in shepherding and disciplining someone. Our son has severe cognitive developmental delays and is 6 years old. When he disobeys because he genuinely doesnt understand I discipline him differently than I do our two year old who brazenly and knowingly defies us. In the same way I have no problem saying that there are psychological problems out there that require a different hand of guidance and discipline. This doesn't negate responsibility or guilt.


----------



## JohnGill (Jun 18, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> This link is long and could prove to be very boring to some, but I did learn a lot about psychopath studies. It's about abnormalities found on MRIs of the brain in this group of ppl (as well as other mentally ill patients) and not the conclusions of psychologists on the illnesses. It is very upfront and doesn't try to make a case for or against psychopaths, but only sets forth the facts found in the studies and also shows some of the downfalls with the studies. So very neutral.



None of these studies are neutral. All such studies fail to take into account the Doctrine of Original Sin and that all of us are capable of the most vilest of crimes. Brain deformity doesn't determine which of us is capable of and may become a serial killer. Every person is capable of that. The article also fails at acknowledging that how we think, repetitively, has been shown to change the structure of our brain. Or in other words, a person can have the "abnormal" brain of a psychopath by thinking as a psychopath. The idea that ADHD can somehow be a precursor to psychopathy shows the outright denial of a Biblical starting point and support of the false evolutionary view of mankind and his mental processes. The most one could say is that certain brain injuries can change behavior. But that was never the issue. My original question about psychopaths had to do with whether or not a psychopath was such because of his constant rejection of God or if not, how would his behavior change after salvation. Would his ability to have empathy change, or would he strive through prayer to "fake" empathy out of obedience to God. To assume that most or all behavior of psychopaths is due to their having a brain disorder is without evidence.


----------

