# Reformed Baptists and EP



## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Just thinking about the Exclusive Psalmody debate/new situation within the Free Church of Scotland. 

1) How many Reformed Baptists go to RB churches that practice EP? 

2) For the RB churches that are not EP, has the inclusion of 'songs of mere human composition' led to theological decline?

3) How many RB churches allow for musical instruments? Has the inclusion of music led to emotionalism and entertainment driven worship?


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## Herald (May 11, 2013)

1. We are not EP.

2. No. In fact, just the opposite. 

3. We have a keyboard and guitar in our worship. The use of these instruments is in the form of accompaniment and they have not lead to emotionalism and entertainment driven worship.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Herald said:


> 1. We are not EP.
> 
> 2. No. In fact, just the opposite.
> 
> 3. We have a keyboard and guitar in our worship. The use of these instruments is in the form of accompaniment and they have not lead to emotionalism and entertainment driven worship.



Thanks Bill. 

What do you think about the FC decision to allow hymns and music? Do you think, as some fear, it is a sign of theological decline? Or is it perhaps the opposite, a sign that the FC is moving towards greater gospel liberty?


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## Herald (May 11, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > 1. We are not EP.
> ...



John, I really do not know much about the Scottish Free church, so it is hard for me to answer. While our church does use musical accompaniment, our usage of non-EP psalms has increased.


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## JML (May 11, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Just thinking about the Exclusive Psalmody debate/new situation within the Free Church of Scotland.
> 
> 1) How many Reformed Baptists go to RB churches that practice EP?
> 
> ...



1) I am an EP Reformed Baptist but my church is not. I know of only two EP RB churches. One in U.S. and one in Northern Ireland. Although I am sure there must be more.

2) For RB churches as a whole I would say yes.

3) 99.999% of them. I am not sure if I would go that far as an across the board characteristic although I am acapella.


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## Grimmson (May 11, 2013)

1. I have heard of one in Colorado.
2. I am in agreement with Bill on this issue and in strong disagreement with John. 
3. From what I have seen of reformed baptist worship, it has not lead to any form of emotionalism and entertainment driven worship. And many of the hymns are what you would find in a church from the OPC or other reformed denominations in the U.S. Which should be no surprise since there is a baptist version of the Trinity hymnal.


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## Tim (May 11, 2013)

There are only a few Reformed Baptist churches in the world that practice exclusive psalmody. You can view my map here (not all of these churches are Baptist):

Independent EP Churches

My count is that there is one such congregation in the USA, one in the Republic of Ireland, one in Wales, and two in England that would be considered Reformed Baptist. That's it. Five in the entire world. 

Why it is like this (in comparison to Presbyterian churches and (Dutch) Reformed churches) is certainly worthy of theological discussion.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## JML (May 11, 2013)

Grimmson said:


> 2. I am in agreement with Bill on this issue and in strong disagreement with John.



I am used to being strongly disagreed with on this.

However, the reason I say yes is that anytime the songs of men are put on equal footing with the songs of God, I would call it theological decline. But let's be honest here, almost all RB churches are not only not EP but do not sing any Psalms at all.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)




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## Herald (May 11, 2013)

John Lanier said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> > 2. I am in agreement with Bill on this issue and in strong disagreement with John.
> ...



Well, I am glad that my church is not one of the _almost all_. Come to think of it, I can name nearly a dozen Reformed Baptist churches that sing psalms. I guess they are not _almost all_ either. It makes one wonder what _almost _means.


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## Jake (May 11, 2013)

I know it is common of Primitive Baptists to not have musical instruments in worship. There is a PB church near me that does not use musical instruments and lists the LBCF on their website (I don't know if they are fully confessional in practice or not). At the least, most PB churches tend to be Calvinistic and not using instruments in worship, although their adherence to Reformed theology as a system varies. I have not heard of any PBs who only sing Psalms. 

(Here is the website of the particular congregation near me if anyone is interested. I have not visited so I have no personal connection to them. They have some information and articles about their worship practices: Fellowship Primitive Baptist Church )


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## Pilgrim72 (May 11, 2013)

I've been to Malcolm Watts' church, and they are EP. Wonderful church & lovely people. The Lord willing, I hope to visit again.


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## VictorBravo (May 11, 2013)

Not EP here, but we sing psalms every Lord's Day. I'd prefer EP, but it is not an issue I'd press among my brothers and sisters.

No theological decline could be attributed to this because, if anything, we sing more psalms now than in the past. In any event, I'd say that our preaching has consistently maintained a very confessional and biblical level without any noticeable change over the years.

We have a piano to carry a tune. Sometimes I lead a Capella. I prefer a Capella, but I'm not the one to force the issue. Even with the piano there is no difference in emotionalism. Our approach to hymns and psalms is very straightforward and without embellishment.

As for emotionalism, I can tell you that when I lead a Capella, be it a psalm or an old standby hymn like "A Mighty Fortress," I will sometimes become slightly overwhelmed with emotion. Even without an instrument I can tear up and get goosebumps contemplating the grace of God and the victory of Christ. I doubt that there is anything wrong with that.


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## deleteduser99 (May 12, 2013)

1) Never been part of one

2) My church is not EP and theologically strong. Haven't been here long enough to state whether it's grown or declined, but knowing the caliber of our pastors, the teachers and the congregation I would venture to say it's grown.

3) We have a piano and are not EP, yet the last thing that you'll get at Dallas RBC is entertainment, emotionalism and catering to the flesh.


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## Herald (May 12, 2013)

VictorBravo said:


> As for emotionalism, I can tell you that when I lead a Capella, be it a psalm or an old standby hymn like "A Mighty Fortress," I will sometimes become slightly overwhelmed with emotion. Even without an instrument I can tear up and get goosebumps contemplating the grace of God and the victory of Christ. I doubt that there is anything wrong with that.



Vic, I think you're safe. We won't be sending the Reformed Baptist worship police after you.


Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD


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## Tyrese (May 12, 2013)

I think emotionalism needs to be defined here. Being emotional about Gods grace and deeply thankful for all He has done through Jesus Christ is not the same as (as John MacArthur would describe it) Charismatic Chaos.


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## JML (May 12, 2013)

Herald said:


> John Lanier said:
> 
> 
> > Grimmson said:
> ...



That is good to hear Bill. I have only seen 1 RB church that sings Psalms in my 6 years as an RB. What Psalter does your church and the others you mentioned sing from?


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## MichaelNZ (May 12, 2013)

In our church we sing at least one psalm each Sunday, but re-worded and set to a tune (from the blue Psalter Hymnal from the Christian Reformed Church). We use an organ (or piano if there is no organist). There is no Reformed Baptist church in my city.


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## Herald (May 12, 2013)

John Lanier said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > John Lanier said:
> ...



John, because we meet at a public facility we have to limit the amount of stuff we haul, therefore we do no use a traditional Psalter. We put the psalm(s) we are singing in the bulletin along with the other hymns.


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## Peairtach (May 12, 2013)

The passages in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 emphasise propositional truth over subjective truth. Subjective truth always plays a role in worship, even in EP a capella churches - e.g."I like that tune with that psalm" - but EP a capella sung worship keeps it to a minimum.

Once a person is subjected to performance and entertainment worship in the musical part of the service, week-in, week-out, and once subjective truth is exalted over propositional truth in that part of the service, then he is overall more liable to the depradations of neo-evangelicslism, etc, even if the preaching and prayers are very good.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Need 4 Creed (May 12, 2013)

Tyrese said:


> I think emotionalism needs to be defined here. .



Emotionalism: Rick Pino - Spin Me Right Around - YouTube


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## Tyrese (May 12, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Tyrese said:
> 
> 
> > I think emotionalism needs to be defined here. .
> ...



Lol now that's just crazy. You should watch a live RB Church service online that way you can see what its like. There is a thread that was started recently that has several Churches that have live services. http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/live-church-services-online-78933/


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## C. M. Sheffield (May 12, 2013)

John Lanier said:


> That is good to hear Bill. I have only seen 1 RB church that sings Psalms in my 6 years as an RB. What Psalter does your church and the others you mentioned sing from?



John,

The vast majority of confessional RB churches use the baptist edition of the old Trinity Hymnal. That particular edition includes a Psalter supplement to ensure that all 150 psalms are accounted for in the Hymnal. In this way, the RB churches I've been in routinely sing the psalms in every service.

I don't know what RB churches you've been around to make you think "almost all" RB churches don't sing the psalms, but I can assure you that your experience is not representative of RB practice as a whole.


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## One Little Nail (May 14, 2013)

Tim said:


> There are only a few Reformed Baptist churches in the world that practice exclusive psalmody. You can view my map here (not all of these churches are Baptist):
> 
> Independent EP Churches
> 
> ...



Why I believe it is like that is that the early Baptist churches in England,as opposed to there Reformed Brethren
who clung to the Psalms at this time,was that the Baptists used the Hymnal & man-composed Hymns as a means
of spreading there Baptistic Propaganda hehe I mean Doctrinal Distinctives(Believers Baptism by Dunking[theres 
a word you havn't heard in a while])


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## Need 4 Creed (May 15, 2013)

Is the difference in practice among RPs and RBs due to differences in their confessions?

W C F

5. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, and reverence; *singing of psalms with grace in the heart;* as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.

LBCF

5. The reading of the Scriptures, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, teaching and admonishing one another in *psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs,* singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord; as also the administration of baptism, and the Lord's supper, are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings, and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner.


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## One Little Nail (May 16, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Is the difference in practice among RPs and RBs due to differences in their confessions?
> 
> W C F
> 
> ...



From reading the preceding you should't think so because the LBCF seems to employ the exact wording
of the Scriptures,funny that.
I still mantain as a Historical Proven Truth that sects have employed non Inspired hymns as
a means to propagate Doctrines that they have held to like Arians,Socinians & CredoBaptists.
Having said that even most Presbyterians these days shun their own Heritage for a mess
of lentils(I knew vegetarianism was a bad thing ) & tend to neglect the singing of Psalms,
that apparently nice little old lady on the organ or piano is usually the worst offender at when 
it comes to resisting Biblical Worship (Acappella EP).


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## deleteduser99 (May 17, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> Need 4 Creed said:
> 
> 
> > Is the difference in practice among RPs and RBs due to differences in their confessions?
> ...



One day Arius, Pelagius, and C.H. Spurgeon are all out for a walk...

I just can't picture that.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 17, 2013)

Harley said:


> One Little Nail said:
> 
> 
> > Need 4 Creed said:
> ...



It is pretty weak. 

Preaching and written tracts were the primary means by which heresy is spread, but we continue to preach and write.


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## irresistible_grace (May 17, 2013)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> John Lanier said:
> 
> 
> > That is good to hear Bill. I have only seen 1 RB church that sings Psalms in my 6 years as an RB. What Psalter does your church and the others you mentioned sing from?
> ...



*"a significant portion of all 150 Psalms is now represented"*


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## irresistible_grace (May 17, 2013)

Even though I do not put Credo[-only]Baptist in the same group as Arians & Socinians (which were both damnable heresies I do believe), the fact remains that non-Inspired hymns [of men] have been extremely effective at propagating/advancing false doctrines throughout church history & do not have a place in corporate worship.


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## irresistible_grace (May 17, 2013)

Exclusive Psalmody - Traditional or Scriptural? - SermonAudio.com


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## matt01 (May 18, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Even though I do not put Credo[-only]Baptist in the same group as Arians & Socinians (which were both damnable heresies I do believe)...




Thank you for that.


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