# The Classics



## Reformed Thomist (Jun 29, 2009)

I know that most here spend time reading theology, Biblical commentaries, Puritan spiritual writings, and that some study philosophy... but do you make it a point to read the Classics? (By 'Classics', of course, I mean Greek and Latin literature -- Homer, Hesiod, Thucydides, Cicero; Ovid, Julius Caesar, Livy, Seneca, et al. -- either in translation or in the original languages.)

What, would you say, is the healthy/proper Christian attitude toward this vast field of literature? Should the educated Christian be busying him or herself with these works (either for educational or personal enjoyment purposes)?


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## CharlieJ (Jun 29, 2009)

I have just finished a wide (though not exhaustive) survey of Plato and am working on Aristotle. My Greek isn't good enough to sit down and read straight through in the Attic, but I sometimes use an interlinear Greek/English edition. I have Thucydides sitting waiting after Aristotle (out of chronology I know).

I believe the classics got the shaft as our "education" has moved more to "vocational training," thus devaluing the cultivation of mind and refinement of literary taste characteristic of the gentleman.


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## rbcbob (Jun 29, 2009)

I will probably get into trouble here ..... Having home schooled four children and seen a variety of opinions on _Classical Reading_ it has seemed to me to be over rated for anyone not pursuing an advanced degree in Literature or Philosophy. For example _Euthyphro_ by Plato comes nearest to the mark by recognizing that there must be some axiom standing in back of truth. Yet, not surprisingly, he comes up woefully short.

If your purpose in broadening your reading is purely for the strengthening of your understanding then there are many superior wells to drink from, even among unbelievers who have been influenced by Christianity.

That being said I concede that for advanced study and the ability to refute errors it could pay dividends to labor through the Classics (so called).


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## Confessor (Jun 29, 2009)

*BURN ALL THE PAGAN LIBRARIES*



(I have no informed opinion on the subject. )


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## CharlieJ (Jun 29, 2009)

rbcbob said:


> I will probably get into trouble here ..... Having home schooled four children and seen a variety of opinions on _Classical Reading_ it has seemed to me to be over rated for anyone not pursuing an advanced degree in Literature or Philosophy. For example _Euthyphro_ by Plato comes nearest to the mark by recognizing that there must be some axiom standing in back of truth. Yet, not surprisingly, he comes up woefully short.
> 
> If your purpose in broadening your reading is purely for the strengthening of your understanding then there are many superior wells to drink from, even among unbelievers who have been influenced by Christianity.
> 
> That being said I concede that for advanced study and the ability to refute errors it could pay dividends to labor through the Classics (so called).



Well, if you study philosophy, you'll read Plato and Aristotle.

If you study political theory, you'll read Plato and Aristotle, maybe Thucydides and Cicero.

If you study rhetoric and public speaking, many of the ideas are drawn from Aristotle and Cicero.

If you study history, you'll note that the intellectual climate from Plato to around the 17th century was dominated by various mixtures of - you guessed it - Plato and Aristotle (and Christianity).

If you study theology, you can't make good sense out of the medieval period or Reformation without reference to.... Plato and Aristotle. Book 1 of Calvin's Institutes includes a major running dialogue with the classics, especially Cicero and Diogenes.

If you study music theory, you'll at least reference Plato and Aristotle.


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## VilnaGaon (Jun 29, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> I know that most here spend time reading theology, Biblical commentaries, Puritan spiritual writings, and that some study philosophy... but do you make it a point to read the Classics? (By 'Classics', of course, I mean Greek and Latin literature -- Homer, Hesiod, Thucydides, Cicero; Ovid, Julius Caesar, Livy, Seneca, et al. -- either in translation or in the original languages.)
> 
> What, would you say, is the healthy/proper Christian attitude toward this vast field of literature? Should the educated Christian be busying him or herself with these works (either for educational or personal enjoyment purposes)?



The Puritans quote a lot from the classics. Apparently a man was not considered educated unless he could quote Cicero in Latin. 
The Puritans seemed to have read far more broadly than we Reformed people do today. Just look up Richard Baxter's recommended reading list in his Christian Directory.


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## rbcbob (Jun 29, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> > I will probably get into trouble here ..... Having home schooled four children and seen a variety of opinions on _Classical Reading_ it has seemed to me to be over rated for anyone not pursuing an advanced degree in Literature or Philosophy. For example _Euthyphro_ by Plato comes nearest to the mark by recognizing that there must be some axiom standing in back of truth. Yet, not surprisingly, he comes up woefully short.
> ...



Sooooo ... I think I hear you saying something about Plato and Aristotle ....

I think if you go back and read the original question in the thread, carefully and in context you might find that my answer was to the point


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## py3ak (Jun 29, 2009)

If it's for personal enjoyment, then I don't know that it's a matter of _should_. Do you like Ovid (if you don't that might signal grave character flaws)? Then read him.
Now if you have some reason to understand them, then you should busy yourself with them.


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## Theognome (Jun 29, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> I know that most here spend time reading theology, Biblical commentaries, Puritan spiritual writings, and that some study philosophy... but do you make it a point to read the Classics? (By 'Classics', of course, I mean Greek and Latin literature -- Homer, Hesiod, Thucydides, Cicero; Ovid, Julius Caesar, Livy, Seneca, et al. -- either in translation or in the original languages.)
> 
> What, would you say, is the healthy/proper Christian attitude toward this vast field of literature? Should the educated Christian be busying him or herself with these works (either for educational or personal enjoyment purposes)?



Not only are such books good reads and can be quite edifying in their proper perspective, you should also not neglect this classic of American literature-

Amazon.com: Horton Hears A Who!: Dr. Seuss: Books

Theognome


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## Reformed Thomist (Jun 29, 2009)

Oh, I'm decidedly _for_ the Classics, personally. My love of Cicero and Seneca (the Younger), in particular, is great -- their respective Loebs and Penguin Classics' always have a place in my knapsack. (And to those who know me, my love of Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus and the Stoics goes without saying.)

I'm just curious to know if there is a common attitude toward the Classics in the conservative/confessional Reformed community, and what it is. (I am still feeling my way around the culture.)

-----Added 6/29/2009 at 09:13:35 EST-----



CharlieJ said:


> I believe the classics got the shaft as our "education" has moved more to "vocational training," thus devaluing the cultivation of mind and refinement of literary taste characteristic of the gentleman.



Wholeheartedly agree, sir.

There once was a time when 'literacy' did not refer solely to simple reading ability; it referred primarily to a knowledge of Greek and Latin language and literature (in which young schoolboys were drenched). References to these were a huge part of the 'language' of the culture (similar to the role that the King James Bible played in the _pre-_ post-Christian English-speaking world, but on a much larger scale). By the standards of a 19th century British gentleman, the vast majority of us are illiterate.


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## Caroline (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't have what I'd call an 'informed opinion' on the subject ....

But doesn't Calvin quote Ovid? I was listening to a Bahnsen tape that said something about that. I believe Ovid said that man was created upright to contemplate the heavens or something.

And there was something about Plato too, but I don't immediately recall. 

So it seems that some of the classics would help in putting some of the Reformed literature in context, if nothing else.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jun 29, 2009)

Because the Bible is a document of Antiquity any serious student of the Bible ought to have a sound grasp of the classics, especially the Historians Livy, Tacitus, Josephus and Herodotus. 

Right now I am working through James Ussher's Annals of World History, and the man references almost every ancient historian and early church father.


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## Reformed Thomist (Jun 29, 2009)

Calvin's first published book was actually a commentary on Seneca's _De Clementia_. (Granted, its publication took place one year before Calvin's conversion. It was written by a different man, spiritually speaking -- the young 'humanist' Calvin.)


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## reformed trucker (Jun 29, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> I know that most here spend time reading theology, Biblical commentaries, Puritan spiritual writings, and that some study philosophy... but do you make it a point to read the Classics? (By 'Classics', of course, I mean Greek and Latin literature -- Homer, Hesiod, Thucydides, Cicero; Ovid, Julius Caesar, Livy, Seneca, et al. -- either in translation or in the original languages.)



If this is a poll, count me as a YES!


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## greenbaggins (Jun 30, 2009)

The main issue, in my mind, is that our culture came from the Latin and Greek ideals. Our culture is saturated with the classics, however subconsciously. Studying the classics is therefore one of the very few ways that we can become self-aware about these influences. One cannot understand philosophy without Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, and the pre-Socratics. One cannot understand history without Herodotus and Thucydides. There is a direct line to trace from Homer and Hesiod through Virgil, Dante, and Milton. It is essential to understanding the Western mindset.


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## fredtgreco (Jun 30, 2009)

I think that there is also a matter that our culture has lost the ability to think for thinking's sake. Exercising the mind like a muscle. Even in Reformed circles, we ask pragmatic questions about everything. 

Philosophy is to be studied, we say, so that we can construct devastating apologetic arguments. Cicero is to be studied so we can be great orators. Even (as posited above) Aristotle _in order to understand_ Medieval theology.

Now, I am not denying the validity of practical effects of knowledge. But in my mind that is not why we should study the Classics. As a student of the Classics for more than 20 years, I can say that the Classics help us to think. They help us to think about the world. They challenge us (unlike so much modern literature/history, etc).


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## Houchens (Jun 30, 2009)

Very helpful information. Thanks to "Reformed Thomist" for the question!


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## Claudiu (Jun 30, 2009)

I think the classes are important. Even if one does not read all the works, it is good to get a basic understanding. As it was already mentioned, our culture and way of thinking is derived from these classics. 

Great Books of the Western World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Reformed Thomist (Jun 30, 2009)

One of my favorite online Classics resources (in my opinion the best):

The Internet Classics Archive


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## fredtgreco (Jun 30, 2009)

An excellent resource:

Textkit - Greek and Latin Learning Tools


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## Sven (Jun 30, 2009)

One thing I am always impressed with, when I read the Reformers and the Puritans is how well versed they are in the Greek and Latin Classics. They often use quotes from them as illustrations, even in their sermons. I agree with the gb that to understand the classics of greek and latin literature is to understand a bit more of our own culture. Christians do not have to worry about being negatively influenced by them as long as they are well grounded in THE classic, the Bible.

Also, Mr. Thomist of the Reformed persuasion, it is a good idea, not to try to synthesize greek philosophy with Christian theology; it failed for Mr. Thomas, and it shouldn't be tried again.


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## Reformed Thomist (Jun 30, 2009)

Sven said:


> Also, Mr. Thomist of the Reformed persuasion, it is a good idea, not to try to synthesize greek philosophy with Christian theology; it failed for Mr. Thomas, and it shouldn't be tried again.



No worries. _That_ kind of Thomism -- scholasticism -- died a long time ago. 

I'm just a Thomist of the Gerstner/Sproul variety.


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## Philip (Jul 4, 2009)

I just finished reading _City of God_ by St. Augustine and you know what? I wouldn't have understood a word of it if I hadn't had a background in the classics. Likewise with St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anselm, Calvin, not to mention Dante, Shakespeare, and Spenser. If I, as a Christian, hope to be well-read in Christian classics (not to mention literature), then I have to be familiar with the Ancient classics.

Personally, I'm rather fond of Plato (I have his collected dialogues sitting on my shelf)--as was Augustine (who did for Plato what Aquinas would later do for Aristotle). With good grounding, I think we as Christians can find real insight in the works of pre-Christian paganism.

"All truth is God's truth--wherever it can be found." ~Arthur Holmes


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