# Do Calvinists and Arminians Proclaim The Same Gospel?



## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 18, 2009)

I think the passage below defines the good news very well, so do Calvinists and Arminians preach the same gospel? If not how would we define the Arminian gospel and what are the implications of this view?

Matthew 1:20-23 
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


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## Hamalas (Apr 18, 2009)

That depends on the Arminian.


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## OPC'n (Apr 18, 2009)

No we don't


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 18, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> That depends on the Arminian.



Take your pick: http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/five-different-strains-arminianism-today-27834/.


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## baron (Apr 18, 2009)

Jonathan this is a question I often wondered. Most people when asked do not answer the question, is it the same gospel or different. I was told that B.B.Warfield answered the question by saying the Arminian gospel is a diffrent Gospel. Gal.1:9 As we had said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye received, let him be accursed. (Now I have no quote to prove this, it's something I was told).

When I talk to pastors who are of the Arminian persuasion they say Reformed people teach a false gospel.

Very interested in what others say.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 18, 2009)

I heard an Arminian prayer at a large gathering last evening, "Lord, we know you're all powerful, but you still need us to be your hands and your feet."

That is terrible theology said in a bad way from a preacher who should know better. He wanted to emphasize our responsibility to be foot soldiers for the King. But he is muddled in the way he wished to express his theology in prayer.

Does that mean his is a different gospel? I don't think so. If you asked him point blank, he would say we are saved through faith in Christ alone. But he would probably muddle that up by focusing too much on the human responsibility side of conversion. And then there's the ordo salutis problem of Arminianism -- if faith precedes regeneration under the Arminian system, then it is a different gospel. But this is like asking a dog to meow; most Arminians don't state their beliefs in Calvinistic terms like that. Indeed, many of them have not thought their theology through.

I've found it very helpful to simply sit down with those who are teachable and show them what the Scripture says (in large chunks, not just quicky verses). The Spirit does might things through the word.


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## Whitefield (Apr 18, 2009)

The gospel may be the same. The difference comes in answering the question, "How are we saved?"


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## Blue Tick (Apr 18, 2009)

Classical Ariminanism, no.

Broad Evangelicism mixed with Semi-Pelagianism, maybe, depends on the church,etc.

Free Willers, No.

Ask Jesus into your heart gospelites... Is not the gospel.


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## Webservant (Apr 18, 2009)

Well, if your gospel says "be extra good and say this prayer and you will be saved" then no, it's not the same gospel as ours. It's not what all Arminians preach - but at least in my experience growing up, that's exactly what the Assemblies of God was preaching.


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 18, 2009)

If Calvinism and Armianism are two different views on the same gospel, why then are the differences so radical? Calvinists have Christ atoning for the elect and Arminians have Christ atoning for every single individual. Which is the real good news?


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## Whitefield (Apr 18, 2009)

Romans 5:6 may be a contact point for both.


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 18, 2009)

If Arminians have an inaccurate view of the gospel, could it also be argued that Roman Catholics have an inaccurate view of the gospel? Arminians exercise faith and free will, and Catholics exercise faith and good works.


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## Idelette (Apr 19, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> If Arminians have an inaccurate view of the gospel, could it also be argued that Roman Catholics have an inaccurate view of the gospel? Arminians exercise faith and free will, and Catholics exercise faith and good works.



I would say they are pretty much one in the same!

Free will is just another form of "good works"....they both distort the gospel!


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## D. Paul (Apr 19, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> If Arminians have an inaccurate view of the gospel, could it also be argued that Roman Catholics have an inaccurate view of the gospel? Arminians exercise faith and free will, and Catholics exercise faith and good works.



Rome certainly does declare a false gospel:
Arminianism - The Road back to Rome


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## Hippo (Apr 19, 2009)

Webservant said:


> Well, if your gospel says "be extra good and say this prayer and you will be saved" then no, it's not the same gospel as ours. It's not what all Arminians preach - but at least in my experience growing up, that's exactly what the Assemblies of God was preaching.



Exactly, if you preach works not grace then it is not the same Gospel. The key distinction (which is not limited to Arminians) is a Gospel of be good to be saved is not the true Gospel. This is not a fine point of theology but is the very heart of Christianity. Many Arminains are (perhaps inconsitently) perfectly sound on this point.


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## DonP (Apr 19, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> If Calvinism and Armianism are two different views on the same gospel, why then are the differences so radical? Calvinists have Christ atoning for the elect and Arminians have Christ atoning for every single individual. Which is the real good news?



No Arminians have Christ atoning for no one, unless we act on our own faith and thereby accept and activate or apply the atoning work to us. 

Those who do not do this end up with no atoneing work applied to them. So He didn't really atone for anyone. 

No propitiation of God on the cross way back then. 

John 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls *his own sheep by name *and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and t*he sheep follow him, for they know his voice*. 5 Yet they will *by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers*." NKJV

When they hear the true gospel of God's sovereignty and clearly reject or say I would not have a god like that or who won't let us choose etc. I have no basis for recognizing them as converted at that point. 


We can say an Arminian is confused, but is not a JW or a Mormon or a Bhuddist. I have known them after hearing the truth to leave and repent too. Does this proved they were converted already?

If it were one part of the gospel it could be one thing, but they reject: 

Who God is, Sovereign, He predestines all. 
Their own sin, that they do not seek God, 
It is not Their own free will to choose Him and anytime, they say 
It is a volitional act god could not interfere with; therefore it is of man's flesh origination.
The atoning work of Christ, that it was effective, that He payed the entire punishment for all sins for whom He died, and that God cannot punish anyone again for whom Christ died, They deny God's justice in this. 
The work of the Spirit in drawing people to God and giving them a new birth. 

That flesh and blood cannot please God, for their faith can, 

That it is all of grace because the decision is not. Faith is not. 

That to be converted one can accept Christ as savior but not necessary to accept Him as Lord or commit to bey Him, most hold to the carnal heresy, some don't, Ryrie at Dallas teaches this clearly in a lay theology book commonly used and says Lordship Salvation is adding works to the just believe something gospel, and he says Lordship is a false gospel, why can't we agree with him they are diff. 

They deny the need to keep the commandments and don't 

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. NKJV

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world NKJV

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. NKJV


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## ExGentibus (Apr 19, 2009)

If by "Calvinists" we mean augustinian monergists who agree with each point of the Canons of Dordt, and by "Arminians" we mean synergists who agree with the _errors_ rejected by Dordt, then the answer would simply be:
No, Arminians proclaim another gospel, which is no gospel at all.

Rom. 9.16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Consistent Arminians will object to both teachings of the Apostle.


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## Manuel (Apr 19, 2009)

The Gospel preached by the Arminians basically is this:

1-God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life
2-Man is sinful and separated from God
3-Jesus Christ is the only provision for man's sin
4-We must individually receive Christ as savior and Lord
5-God is doing everything He can to save you, the rest is up to you.


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## Arch2k (Apr 19, 2009)

The WLC has something to say regarding this:



> Q72: What is justifying faith?
> A72: Justifying faith is a saving grace,[1] wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit [2] and word of God,[3] whereby he, *being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition,*[4] not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel,[5] but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin,[6] and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.[7]
> 1. Heb. 10:39
> 2. II Cor. 4:13; Eph. 1:17-19
> ...


 
Here the Westminster Divines articulate that a knowledge of our helplessness in necessary for understanding the gospel. I don't see how "free-will" in the Arminian sense is compatable with this at all.

This is just one of the many older threads on this topic.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f59/arminian-god-not-worshippable-11817/


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## CharlieJ (Apr 19, 2009)

If a man believes in the substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness of Christ as the ground of his salvation, I would not charge him with a false gospel even if his theoretical understanding of it is inaccurate. Old Arminians didn't believe in imputation or substitution, but most modern ones do.

If a man believes that Christ, by virtue of his Divine personhood and saving work, is the only hope for sinners and received by faith w/o works, I would not charge him with believing a false gospel, even if he is confused on how that faith got there. I don't think that believing my belief didn't come from me is a precondition for believing.

To set the record straight, B.B. Warfield in his book _The Plan of Salvation_ condemned Remonstant Arminianism as being autosoteric, but places evangelical arminianism as exactly that, evangelical. In other words, it belongs to the same genus as Calvinism, as opposed to, say, Romanism.

We have many people on this board who were Arminians before they were Calvinists. If we conclude that Arminianism is a false gospel, we must conclude that these people were not regenerate until they embraced Calvinism, a conclusion that would be very difficult to verify experientially.


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## DonP (Apr 19, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> If a man believes in the substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness of Christ as the ground of his salvation, I would not charge him with a false gospel even if his theoretical understanding of it is inaccurate. Old Arminians didn't believe in imputation or substitution, but most modern ones do.
> 
> If a man believes that Christ, by virtue of his Divine personhood and saving work, is the only hope for sinners and received by faith w/o works, I would not charge him with believing a false gospel, even if he is confused on how that faith got there. I don't think that believing my belief didn't come from me is a precondition for believing.



Well most don't understand the substitutionary righteousness. They only think they are forgiven. A pastor might if you forced it out of him. But it wouldn't be in most of their gospels. I never understood it from men like Mac Arthur back then and h was pretty sound. 

And I am not sure I was converted before I understood the doctrines of grace. 
I remember clearly thinking about the blue Holy Spirit Book of CCC that his was salvation when a person put Christ on the throne of their life, and the 4 laws only got them thinking. 
You can't have Christ as savior if He is not Lord. 
Need I site the Lord lord verses? 
And He definitely is not Lord of all the Carnal Christians who they say are converted. 
I remember being convicted of being a false prophet for telling people they were saved if they prayer a prayer, never to doubt their salvation because their decision t receive Jesus as savior and forgiveness if their sins is saves them. 

God has done all He can, now its up to you to do something.... 

No matter what you add here, no matter how much you try to say it is from grace or i is not from grace or believing is not a work or a decision to commit one's life to the Lord or accept Him or receive Him, raise a hand, walk down the Isle, pray a prayer make a decision these are all things you have to do, and even if you say they have no merit, you really don't believe that, because you know if you did not do it you would be saved. 

Its up to you now, is a false gospel, a false God, and false grace, a false Jesus, 
So whether you were converted or just being drawn or under so much fear and conviction you changed you life, or just wanted fire insurance, when you were an Arminian, You most likely cannot know if you were regenerated. The wind blows, no man can see it, only the effect that it has come, so is the Spirit.

Under good peaching like J Edwards lots of people got sick, felt convicted, utwardly changed their lives, just as the Jews did. So do Mormons.
Outward conformity does not prove conversion, the lack of it shows it is not there. 

And the point is, what happened to you as an Arminian may be different because now you are not still one. 
After understanding a Lordship call on my life, there was some change and within 2 years I was reformed, and a much more serious lifestyle change has been with me ever since. 
Remember
Please be careful not to attribute to the Spirit, the work of man. 

Matt 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, *have we not prophesied in Your name*, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, *'I never knew you*; depart from Me, you who *practice lawlessness!*' NKJV


1 John 2:3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. NKJV

Matt 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. NKJV

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! NKJV


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 19, 2009)

How should we define the gospel? Should we include the purpose of God, to redeem the elect, and the extent of the atonement? Arminians and Calvinists both preach that everyone should repent and believe the good news, but what is the good news? What, if any, aspects of the good news can Arminians and Calvinists disagree on and still have the same gospel?


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 19, 2009)

I think the main difference stems from what is really "underneath" the faith that the person is aiming at. In the main, I don't think it's useful to group baptized Christians into camps of Arminianism. Most are too ignorant of the issues and know no better. It's probably more accurate to speak of presentations of the Gospel as either Arminian or Christian.

The Gospel cannot be safely divorced from God's sovereignty in salvation. Because Christ dies for all in an Arminian presentation then the Atonement itself is "defective". What is mixed with the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ is the faith of the believer. He adds to Christ's work by His faith to differentiate from those who have had Christ die for them and yet die in their sins.

It is not faith, properly speaking, that is the grounds of our salvation. It is Christ. That seems pretty basic but Arminian presentations do not see faith as something that adds nothing and that it merely lays hold of Christ. It is forced, by its presuppositions, to grant some merit to belief. Most are not sophisticated enough to note this but the damage to the Gospel, though seemingly imperceptible by some, is very real. Most assume that as long as you're not talking about something good we do (like giving to the poor or caring for the downtrodden) that works are not being added to faith but faith itself is re-defined in the Arminian system as something springing forth from and belonging to the individual and, hence, the Reformed Church has always condemned this view of faith as an undermining of the Gospel.

Christ's Priestly work extends not only to a once-for-all sacrifice offered for a definite People but His intercession in that work applies it to those Whom He died for. Redemption, according to the Gospel of the Scriptures, is accomplished and applied sovereignly by God.

In the final analysis, it is not very useful to speak of Christian movements in the abstract and then apply them to everyone we meet based on who they are taught by. We need to take baptized believers one at a time when we cross their path. Even Reformed believers fall into the error of trusting in something they add to the work of Christ so we need to be faithful to help those in our own congregations to understand the grace of God. When we encounter men and women who we expect have a deficient understanding of the Gospel outside our Confessional Churches, we ought to diagnostically determine where their hope rests and direct them to the finished work of Christ and help them understand that their faith is the gift of God and that it adds nothing to the work of Christ.


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## DonP (Apr 19, 2009)

Nice Clear Presentation Rich !!! Great job

So is it another gospel? 
Can one be converted under its preaching alone or would they need to hear more or more clearly? 
Could one under it end up trusting in their decision or faith rather than in Christ wholly?


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## Knoxienne (Apr 19, 2009)

No, it's not the same gospel. At all. 

That being said, one thing that was really helpful for me was when a preacher once said that an Arminian believer who God has saved isn't going to be consistent in their Arminianism. When it comes down to it, every believer knows down deep inside that the glory goes to God alone. They'll say things like, "If it weren't for Jesus, I'd be dead, in prison, in hell, or whatever". They know they're helpless. 

Even as Calvinists, our theology isn't perfect either. We don't understand everything perfectly.


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## Jon 316 (Apr 19, 2009)

> I would not charge him with believing a false gospel, even if he is *confused* on how that faith got there.





> Most are too *ignorant* of the issues and know no better.





> Most are *not sophisticated enough* to note this





> Well *most don't understand *the substitutionary righteousness.



Sorry, not being contentious for the sake of it here, but I found these quotes very interesting. 

Are we saying that the Arminians chief problem is an intellectual one?

Are those with a more 'intellectual' interest in faith drawn to Calvinism while those who are more concerned with 'pragmatism' and the 'heart' drawn to arminianism?

How much does personality type and intellectual ability influence ones bias?

Or are we just saying arminians tend to be stupid? 

Or Is it primarily a spiritual blocakage i.e they are decieved by 1) their own heart 2) the enemy of their souls? and they are 3) conformed to the pattern (philosophy) of this world?

Or- is it just prior commitments to a percieved sense of justice and fairness i.e free will-free offer- which they assume is essential to the nature of the gospel and God?


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## DonP (Apr 19, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> No, it's not the same gospel. At all.
> 
> That being said, one thing that was really helpful for me was when a preacher once said that an Arminian believer who God has saved isn't going to be consistent in their Arminianism. When it comes down to it, every believer knows down deep inside that the glory goes to God alone. They'll say things like, "If it weren't for Jesus, I'd be dead, in prison, in hell, or whatever".



I can't speak for all but all I know who are Arminian and that is loads, and I always ask them this, are very clear and though they say things like I was saved by grace or Jesus, they mean it was prevenient grace for all and yes I am thankful I was smart enough to see it was true and make the decision to accept Christ. 

When pinned down with tight questioning they will say it is up to the person's decision or else God would not be fair. 
God can't pick some and not others, He gave man free will and He can't make someone willing to believe. 

I can usually get some of them to admit that the Spirit has to open their eyes to see the truth Like with Lydia , but they have no idea what that means and come right back to but its up to us.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 19, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> > I would not charge him with believing a false gospel, even if he is *confused* on how that faith got there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, it's not an intellectual capacity issue, it's an issue of improper teaching on the one hand (the role of the Church) and illumination on the other. That men are capable of being deceived by false doctrines is something that leaps out of the pages of Scripture, which is why elders in Christ's Church are charged with ensuring that the faith they deliver is true. The Gospel itself is perspicuous but sometimes the errors that undermine its simplicity are not likewise plain or the Galatians wouldn't have been deceived.


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## Knoxienne (Apr 19, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> > No, it's not the same gospel. At all.
> ...



True - sadly that's very pervasive.


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