# Appropriate dress in worship



## Richard King (Jul 26, 2005)

This came up recently in a discussion with some church leaders and I was wondering how you guys would advise or approach this. 

There are some ladies in the church who are not happy with the way some of the younger ladies dress in church on Sunday morning and they want the problem addressed in some way. I have seen no one who looks at all trashy but it can only be young ladies showing bare shoulders because of spaghetti straps on the dresses.
We have a nice group of young people coming to this PCA church I have been going to.
They are acting perfectly reverent and discreet and appropriate but...
Would you let it go or try to talk to a young lady about such a thing? If you think it should be mentioned should it be done by a lady in the church or the pastor?


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## doulosChristou (Jul 26, 2005)

The same issue came up at my church a while back. It was the spaghetti strap dresses. After much time passed with no one saying anything, the young woman was privately encouraged to wear something more modest by an elder female. It was well received, and the young woman corrected the problem. I believe it would be unkind to the young lady not make her aware of the issue. Godly women who dress immodestly are usually unaware of it and respond well when made aware.


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## Solo Christo (Jul 26, 2005)

Many congregations experience this problem. in my opinion, I really think that most of the ladies involved are aloof to the predicament. I believe this should first be addressed at home (beginning from childhood). If the behavior continues, it would seem appropriate for a respectable lady of the church to bring it to attention.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

For the sake of not leading you into sin and lust guys, don't visit your average SBC congregation on a Sunday morning. I wish I was joking or not generalizing.


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## pastorway (Jul 27, 2005)

it is not just the SBC....

we need to apply Titus 2 here - one proof of the soundness of a church is seen in how the older women teach the younger! Same goes for men too.

*Titus 2*
1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 *the older women likewise*, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things"” 4 *that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed*.
6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.

Phillip


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## toddpedlar (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Solo Christo_
> Many congregations experience this problem. in my opinion, I really think that most of the ladies involved are aloof to the predicament. I believe this should first be addressed at home (beginning from childhood). If the behavior continues, it would seem appropriate for a respectable lady of the church to bring it to attention.



I think along with "aloof", I've found just as often, if not more so, "hostile" with respect to the predicament. Many women, when faced with the statement that some men are potentially having issues with what they're wearing, argue that it is the man's problem, and that what they wear is immaterial (no pun intended). It just doesn't seem to click with them that tempting someone to sin, laying the stumbling block before them, is as much a sin as the lustful reaction itself. 

I'll go along with Gabe here, but expand. It is prevalent EVERYWHERE - SBC, PCA, you name it, with few exceptions. Spaghetti straps, NO straps, low cut, high on the thigh, etc., etc., etc. Of course we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, or elicit a reaction such as I mention above... so we don't say anything...

Todd


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## Solo Christo (Jul 27, 2005)

If this is not an issue that has already been discussed amongst the PB ladies in the "Tea Party", I hope it will be soon.


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## J Andrew Deane (Jul 27, 2005)

What about us males?

I feel like my Calvary Chapel ways make me too informal at times. What think ye?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 27, 2005)

I don't think formality has anything to do with anything. Modesty is a different issue altogether, I believe.


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## LadyFlynt (Jul 27, 2005)

In response to the original poster on "its just spaghetti straps"...the thing with spag straps is that it isn't JUST the type of straps, but that many wearing such are either not wearing supportive garments under it or their straps are showing. This is where the modesty issue comes in, especially in dealing with what is appropriate/inappropriate for service. Sorry to be so blunt, but I believe that may be what the ladies in your church are actually refering to.

Really, if you want to know what they think is inappropriate...ask them what they mean by inappropriate and what they consider such...they may be either seeing things that you are unaware of or just have a different view of what is inappropriate.


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by J Andrew Deane_
> What about us males?
> 
> I feel like my Calvary Chapel ways make me too informal at times. What think ye?



I have always said, if we were to meet w/ the president of the United States this evening for dinner, we would not go in Jeans and a t-shirt; all of us would dress accordingly (except the national champion Lacrosse team). When it comes to meeting with the King of Kings, we wear _whatever_.........

As far as the young woman, I would teach topically on the subject of modesty and if that didn't work, I would either talk to their parents (if they were still young) or directly to the woman (with my wife in tow).

Phillip,
I understand about your Titus verse; I thought of that first as well. However, is it the womans reponsibility to _teach_ doctrine? Yes & no. The pastor & elders are responsible for things that are pertaining to church and worship (specifically). The Titus verse is for more things outside of the church. Ultimately, the person in question could say, "The pastor hasn't said anything to me, if it isn't bothering him, then I guess it is not a problem".

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## cupotea (Jul 27, 2005)

A word of caution; if you approach her and make a big deal of it, it'll embarass the heck out of her. If it's a smaller congregation, you should probably get the minister to do it. If not, you could just approach her and quietly say it's unappropriate for church and you're concerned that it might offend people.


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## Puddleglum (Jul 27, 2005)

in my opinion, hopefully one of the ladies of the church would talk to her. (Does she have a mother - or even a sister?)

If not, one of the guys could say something. I don't think it has to be the pastor; if you've noticed, maybe you could say something. Personally, probably the one thing that has had the most influence on me when it comes to trying to dress modestly was a comment a Christian brother made. That's when I realized that it actually does matter. So if you've got a relationship where you think that you could approach her on something like that, I'd consider doing so.


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## alwaysreforming (Jul 27, 2005)

Inappropriate dress is just one form of "disorder" in the congregation, and as such it should be addressed by the Pastor during one of his sermons (as mine did).

He mentioned that several of the younger males that used to worship there were no longer doing so, and when he asked them why they mentioned how the immodest dress of some of the young ladies was making it hard for them to worship with a pure heart.

Something I heard Al Martin say recently on his "Christian Liberty" series was, "Ladies when you go to a Bible study you should not be giving the guys a lesson in posterior anatomy!"

It burns me up when I see the young ladies wearing garments intended to incite lusts and attention from other males. There are plenty of opportunities for a pastor to mention this from the pulpit; he should use one. I've come close to doing this myself on a couple of occassions.


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## cupotea (Jul 28, 2005)

Well, they _are_ in Texas; I imagine their skimpy clothes are more for comfort than anything else.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cottonball_
> Well, they _are_ in Texas; I imagine their skimpy clothes are more for comfort than anything else.



It's much hotter in many parts of the world, where, depending on cultural conditions, women wear far more clothing. 

Comfort may be part of the equation, but the bare fact (no pun intended) of the matter is that they don't consider what they're wearing an inappropriate display of their bodies, and they implicitly assume that any problem that men have with their wearing such outfits is the men's problem, not theirs. They can't use the excuse that "it's hot" - it's hot for the men, too, but not many of them are bare chested and in shorts in worship, I'll bet, for comfort's sake. If "comfort" is their argument, then clearly they are showing that their own physical comfort trumps modesty, a problem in and of itself. However, I would be willing to bet (if I were a betting man) that at least part, if not the principal part, of their motivation is that those clothes are "attractive". (just look at the root of that word... what does it really mean?)

Little disturbs me more than to see professing Christian women wear clothing that is meant only to draw men's eyes to the breasts or the bottom, and incite desires - which is what MUCH women's clothing is strictly intended to do (in the guise of being 'fashionable'). Christian women have exactly NO business wearing such attire, in worship or out. 

Todd


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 28, 2005)

It's a fact that wearing more clothing will keep the body cooler. The landscapers here in Florida (especially the latino's) wear hats, longsleeve shirts and pants (in the 90-100 degree heat). 

Essentially, woman wearing provacative dress, whether in church or out, is not aligned with scripture. Scripture speaks clearly of modesty .

[Edited on 7-28-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## satz (Jul 28, 2005)

I think that if a woman is dressing immodestly, then all things being equal it is only charitable to give her the benefit of the doubt until someone has bought up the issue with her.

And although it is hard, i guess us guys who have a problem with their dress have to be bold enough to go up and address the issue. It helps no one if we are too shy to say anything then start to call our women immodest, immoral or whatever behind their backs.


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## Puritanhead (Jul 28, 2005)

I wear a suit and tie... I used to go in churches at Virginia Beach-- and people would say things about my formal clothes... as if it were too uptight and pompous to dress up for church.


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## satz (Jul 28, 2005)

Not to change the topic or what...but in terms of formality what do you folks think is appropriate attire for church?


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## cupotea (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> I think that if a woman is dressing immodestly, then all things being equal it is only charitable to give her the benefit of the doubt until someone has bought up the issue with her.
> 
> And although it is hard, i guess us guys who have a problem with their dress have to be bold enough to go up and address the issue. It helps no one if we are too shy to say anything then start to call our women immodest, immoral or whatever behind their backs.





You're starting to assume that they're wearing the clothes to be provaocative. Not only that, but you're assuming that the clothes _are_ provocative. It's not like they're wearing skimpy t-shirts that say "look at this!" (as it happens, there actually are shirts like that).


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> I think that if a woman is dressing immodestly, then all things being equal it is only charitable to give her the benefit of the doubt until someone has bought up the issue with her.
> 
> And although it is hard, i guess us guys who have a problem with their dress have to be bold enough to go up and address the issue. It helps no one if we are too shy to say anything then start to call our women immodest, immoral or whatever behind their backs.



This is true. A lot of young women are desensitized to inappropriate clothing (it's what everyone else is wearing, after all) and really don't realize what they're doing. This isn't always the case, but it is charitable to realize that a girl's perception of what is and is not modest can easily be distorted by the culture. I absolutely agree that spaghetti straps are inappropriate for worship (if not all the time), but in comparison to what many young girls are wearing, they aren't particularly provocative. A young woman could easily feel that her dress _is_ modest and still be dead wrong. 

Of course, I do think most young women, if they see the other women in the church dressing very modestly, will start to compare their clothing to _them_ and not to Britney Spears and company. Unless the problem is widespread in the church, most girls who aren't totally oblivious ought to feel uncomfortable. A friend of mine, for instance, wore a slightly low-cut shirt when she visited my church and then felt embarrassed when she saw the conservative clothes the other women were wearing.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 28, 2005)

i think women ought only to wear bonnets and 1860's dresses to church, for modesty reasons


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## LadyFlynt (Jul 28, 2005)

*here ya go, Jacob*


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## heartoflesh (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> i think women ought only to wear bonnets and 1860's dresses to church, for modesty reasons



The Ferangi would find this highly provocative.

_".....You make your women wear clothing!!??"_


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 28, 2005)

Right on, ScottBushey: dress for the occasion, dress for the personage.

Admitting of all reasonable cultural/climate adjustments, no question.

Yes, man looks on the outward appearance, God looks at the heart (1 Sam. 16:7).
Yes, looking down on someone without the "fine clothes" on (Jas. 2:2-3) is sinful, especially as they may have been forced by circumstances to "come as they are."

But, dragging himself in rumpled and unkempt, because he thinks he's too concerned with spirituality for that outward pretentiousness; when he was really too lazy to get up and prepare for worship--that's shameful. And a bit of gnostic dualism along with it.


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## cupotea (Jul 28, 2005)

Well, on my own part, for the summer I'm wearing jeans to church. Why? Sunday is my one day off, the one day I can wear casual clothes, so darnit I'm going to be comfortable! I _miss_ jeans during the week, and it's not like they offend anybody!


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 28, 2005)

Maybe wearing jeans is just fine. But just listen to yourself , as far as justifying it goes. Is part of your calculus "God wants me to be comfortable" ? Have you asked the question, "Is God offended, glorified, indifferent?"

Where is God in your decision? That's the first important question.


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## heartoflesh (Jul 28, 2005)

I remember sitting in a John Piper seminar a few years back and the question was raised as to how a Christian should dress. This was in the context of people having tattoos, purposefully go out of their way to "say something" with their fashion choice, etc. His answer was that we should dress in such a way that we don't draw attention to ourselves--be it high or low. I know this doesn't answer the question of 'how well-dressed should we be in church?', but I think it's a good general answer.


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## LadyFlynt (Jul 28, 2005)

Hubby wears jeans all week long...he has one nice pair of dress pants for special occasions...but for Sunday he gets his dockers on. By the time church is out, he can't even stop for gas, he's in such a hurry to get his jeans on again!!! LOL!


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## LadyFlynt (Jul 28, 2005)

I would love to see a guy show up in a kilt!!! Might start a trend, ya think (hubby might even get into that groove!)


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## cupotea (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Maybe wearing jeans is just fine. But just listen to yourself , as far as justifying it goes. Is part of your calculus "God wants me to be comfortable" ? Have you asked the question, "Is God offended, glorified, indifferent?"
> 
> Where is God in your decision? That's the first important question.



I really can't imagine that God would be offended at my wearing jeans to church! Instead, I worry that He would be offended if my wearing jeans offended other people! So it's not as though I put no thought into it, at first I did feel sort of bad on Sunday mornings while I was getting dressed. A few times I've wimped out and made myself look nicer, but then I was uncomfortable for the whole day (I go to church in Boston, so I can't exactly just go right home and change). But since nobody actually ever looks at me in church, I don't think it's upsetting anyone (it's a pretty big congregation anyway), so I don't feel so bad anymore.

However, if people were actually upset about what I wear, then I'd consider changing (well, truthfully, I'd probably just go to a different church). I do think people would be in the wrong to get all hung up over denim, but I wouldn't want to cause a stir. Honestly, though, I really just wouldn't want to attend a church so phony that the material of a Christian's pants is important!


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## pastorway (Jul 29, 2005)

no one has thought about the poor Christian who only has one pair of clothes....what should he wear to worship???

It is not about the clothes, but the attitude! 

Modetsy, reverence, humility, brokeness.

If someone needs to be schooled in what it means to be modest, so be it. Disciple them!! 

But don't make it seem as though God cares about what we wear. If our heart and attitude is wrong, we can wear all the right clothing and still be offensive to His holiness. 

If our heart and attitude is right, He is pleased with our worship.

Phillip


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## RamistThomist (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> I'm not sure if I've found any dresses that are appropriate for me in worship. Maybe a good kilt will do?



There is not a more manly outfit anywhere.


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