# Do you find this frustrating?



## rpavich (Jun 30, 2009)

I didn't know where to ask this and since this is a sort of preaching...I decided to stick it here.

When discussing biblical things with those who don't agree; LDS folks come to mind as I have been discussing the trinity and related things with a few of them lately...here is my question.

Does it frustrate you when they just say; "well you see it one way and I see it the other"...


I keep trying to say firmly: "no...one of us is dead wrong, this isn't just a matter of opinion like choosing Ice Cream flavors...it's truth, or falsehood.

And they just don't get it.


This has happened with Mormons, Christians, just about everyone, it always comes down to "no matter how much of a case you have or I don't, it's just your opinion against mine"


How frustrating... 

Does this frustrate you?


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 30, 2009)

Hmmm, most the LDS folks I encounter are NOT relativists... and this is why they try to convert me. 


If you run into a relativistic Mormon, just ask him why he thinks someone should become a Mormon if he believes his views are no better or worse than other views.


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## rpavich (Jun 30, 2009)

Sola,
Yes, they do try and convert you but the issue is that they will not agree to the following before speaking.

"We believe things that are diametrically opposed, either I'm wrong or you are wrong, or we both are wrong, but we both can't be right...agreed?"

see how many stay with you to the end. 


In my experience, the people I've dealt with look at spiritual things as an "opinion" or a "preference" rather than actual truth or falsehood.


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## Jeff Allen (Jun 30, 2009)

How about this? When you have good christians who have been disagreeing on the sames issues forever? like baptism, election, the Lord's Supper, church government, drinking (just kdding) maybe it means that it is not as cut and dry as some think. 

Also in my experiance most Mormons are now on the defensive since the internet has exposed everything. They now ignore the constant exhortations from leadership to try and convert their neighbors. Convert baptism are way down.


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## Confessor (Jun 30, 2009)

Very few people I know actually espouse a belief that truth is relative. The problem is that people live like relativists when they realize their own positions don't hold up.

And to answer the OP, yes, it is extremely frustrating.


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## christianyouth (Jun 30, 2009)

Rpav, I suspect a lot of why this happens is because most debates that take place(either from the Scriptures or not) don't take into account the different assumptions that either person might have. The Arminian may be completely consistent in interpreting those 'murky' passages in the way he chooses to, provided he has a prior commitment to a teaching in scripture that he regards as clear. 

I just have seen too many disagreements take place between two smart people who have both shown through their lives that they are honest to think that these disputes happen because people are dishonest.I think this happens because people don't take the time to hash out their opposing presuppositions(especially when it's a debate on biblical interpretation).


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## rpavich (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes, you are probably right on in what you just said...

But is that what you meant?  just kidding


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## Heldveld (Jun 30, 2009)

> Does it frustrate you when they just say; "well you see it one way and I see it the other"...



No... but you see it one way and I see it the other


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## christianyouth (Jun 30, 2009)

rpavich said:


> Yes, you are probably right on in what you just said...
> 
> But is that what you meant?  just kidding


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 30, 2009)

Heldveld said:


> > Does it frustrate you when they just say; "well you see it one way and I see it the other"...
> 
> 
> 
> No... but you see it one way and I see it the other



That one is the worst!


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## SemperEruditio (Jun 30, 2009)

_That's just your interpretation..._


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## Rangerus (Jun 30, 2009)

my wife and I have the same discussions quite often.


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## Blue Tick (Jun 30, 2009)

The problem with Mormons is that they are Hyper-Arminians. They’re super Free-Willers to the 10th power. When understanding the Mormon "Gospel" which is no gospel at all it comes back to that all good Mormons chose to enter into the plan of eternal progression. Here is the problem with the presupposition that Mormons have, they chose to come to earth from the "Spirit World" to eternally progress to godhood, as result the works righteousness is ingrained deeply into the psyche. Mormons are works driven. Keep this in mind. Almost all attacks on justification stem from an over inflated view of man's salvific ability and faithfulness. You’re dealing with someone who thinks they are perfect and are told that they can be perfect.

What I do with people either Semi-Pelagian Christians or Mormons is to ask them to define their terms. This is the starting place. For example with Mormons: First question for example what is sin? Define sin. Stay from the spottiness of their church history. Get them to think about their response rather than getting them to rely on the programmed response. Second, Semi-Pelagian Christians, define Free-Will. Is Free-Will really a gift from God? Or is Jesus Christ crucified for sinners the gift of God? 

Is it frustrating, yes. I find it more frustrating to speak with Semi-Pelagian broad evangelicals then Mormons. Why? Because Mormons have a higher view of the “Church” evangelicals don’t. Mormons, have a higher view of the Law (though distorted) evangelicals don’t. Mormons, typically have a higher view of engaging the society by “taking dominion” over society, evangelicals typically don’t. Both are equally frustrating because both groups have the same words but different definitions. 

The frustrating thing about Mormons and Semi-Pelagian Christians is they rely on emotionalism and experience. For instance, the Mormon response to uncover the truth about the Book of Mormon is “Pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Did you get a burning in the bosom?” Evangelicals, pray this prayer and ask Jesus into your heart… See the similarities.


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## christianyouth (Jun 30, 2009)

Blue Tick said:


> What I do with people either Semi-Pelagian Christians or Mormons is to ask them to define their terms.



Ah, good point! I agree that this is a cause of many misunderstandings. I've found that people who generally hold to some view of sinless perfectionism, or close to it with a VERY high view of definitive sanctification, work with a definition of sin different from that of mine. They think of sin as acts committed, and not good omitted.

Blue Tick, interesting points though... I generally do have more respect for them as well. They seem to take their false faith more seriously than a lot of evangelicals do.


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## wallingj (Jun 30, 2009)

Blue Tick said:


> “Pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Did you get a burning in the bosom?”



Oh how I have heard that so many times from members of LDS.


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## Rich Koster (Jun 30, 2009)

wallingj said:


> Blue Tick said:
> 
> 
> > “Pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Did you get a burning in the bosom?”
> ...



When I hear the hooey from Josef Smith I get a burning in my bosom, it's called indigestion.


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## wallingj (Jun 30, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> wallingj said:
> 
> 
> > Blue Tick said:
> ...


 
That is often my next question had they just eaten at Taco Bell when they reached their conclusion about the Book of Mormon.


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## KSon (Jun 30, 2009)

Welcome to the world of post-modernism, where relativism and pluralism reign supreme. The thought that there has to be one absolute truth is preposterous and the ridiculous notion that two things, complete opposites, can both be true is roundly accepted. Throw in humanism and you have the three "isms" that are weapons being used against us in the battle on a daily basis.


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