# Can a Christian in good conscience open a pub....



## Anton Bruckner

strictly from a business stand point?


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## PuritanCovenanter

Maybe in Europe.


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## Bladestunner316

I wouldnt think it would be bad as long as they were aware of how much the customer was drinking. But I dont really care for Pubs or Bars I always feel uncomfortable about them. 

blade


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## Anton Bruckner

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> I wouldnt think it would be bad as long as they were aware of how much the customer was drinking. But I dont really care for Pubs or Bars I always feel uncomfortable about them.
> 
> blade


so how will you monitor how much the customer is drinking? One drink maximum? what about the bar as a meeting place for one night standers?

Can a Christian divorce themselves from these things and still run the bar strictly for business sakes or would he be encouraging drunkeness and adultery.


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## Bladestunner316

How would he be encouraging adultry??

I think there should be a minimum as long as the consumer knows where they stand there should be no problem.


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## Michael Butterfield

I really find it hard to believe this is a serious inquiry, but I will humor the situation and assume it is. I will admit, however, that I do approach it with a great deal of credulity, for this idea lacks them most fundamental wisdom and show a acute lack of worldly savvy.

This is impiety! You are either living in a cave and have no idea about the bar/pub context in these United States and/or Europe or you have turned into a Reformed Fundamentalist. As a Reformed fundi, you have simply turned the fundamentalists argument against drinking upon its head and allowed yourself to become drunk (pun indented) on your own Christian liberty! I wonder, could I run a club where women do pole dancing and a bump and grind without taking their clothes off and just run around in bikini swimsuits just as a business venture? Hmm? NOT! You cannot even use 1 Corinthians 10:23. This does not even fall into the category of lawful much less expedient and it hardly edifies.

Warning: This is the voice of incredulity speaking"”do not take it personally


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## Puritanhead

I could just hear the gossip at church now...


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## gwine

Psst. Keep it quiet, Bob. They're on to us.


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## satz

I think even from the worldly standpoint there are many different classes of bars, and there is a distinction between a bar and a nightclub.

Here is australia many restaurants and bars have signs that say they will refuse to serve alcohol to intoxicated patrons. I don't know if this is by law or voluntary or how strictly they adhere to it. ( not very i guess)

I think in theory i would be possible to open are bar in good conscience, but in practice there might be so many problems as to make it infeasible. Off course, if you stuck to your principles there is that little problem of profits to worry about as well.

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by satz]

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by satz]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Shouldn't this thread be in the *Puritan Pub*? Anyways, that's where you'll find this 21st century Puritan. Prost!






On a more serious note, over-serving is generally illegal. Every profession has its challenges. One might as easily ask if one could become a policeman or a doctor or a pharmacist in good conscience given the mischief that is framed by a law in our society today and the abortion rights and birth control on demand that are so prevalent. We need *Christian* pub-owners and bartenders. Let's return to our Puritan roots and reclaim pubs for Christ!


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## tcalbrecht

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> ..but even so, can you condone what happens in most pubs? Instead of a beer or glass of wine or even two or three with a steak, the booze is the main center of attention.
> 
> Plus, how are you going to guard against people getting drunk (will your bartenders refuse sale to tipsy patrons).



Does running a pub encourage drunkenness anymore than running a restaurant would encourage gluttony? Or owning a gas station encourage speeding?

Should a Christian place a two appetizer max on their guests?


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## Pilgrim

> _Originally posted by Michael Butterfield_
> I really find it hard to believe this is a serious inquiry, but I will humor the situation and assume it is. I will admit, however, that I do approach it with a great deal of credulity, for this idea lacks them most fundamental wisdom and show a acute lack of worldly savvy.
> 
> This is impiety! You are either living in a cave and have no idea about the bar/pub context in these United States and/or Europe or you have turned into a Reformed Fundamentalist. As a Reformed fundi, you have simply turned the fundamentalists argument against drinking upon its head and allowed yourself to become drunk (pun indented) on your own Christian liberty! I wonder, could I run a club where women do pole dancing and a bump and grind without taking their clothes off and just run around in bikini swimsuits just as a business venture? Hmm? NOT! You cannot even use 1 Corinthians 10:23. This does not even fall into the category of lawful much less expedient and it hardly edifies.
> 
> Warning: This is the voice of incredulity speaking"”do not take it personally



I don't know if I like the usage of "Reformed fundamentalist" here, but I think your point is well taken. I think we've probably all seen some Reformed believers, especially young ones coming from Fundy or pentecostal backgrounds go to extremes in the other direction. They go beyond liberty and into license, or becoming drunk on their "Christian liberty" as you say. 

As Milton wrote: 

"œNone can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license."


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## biblelighthouse

Should a Christian not own a motel, since that might encourage adultery?


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## SRoper

Since I've been known to visit pubs, I find it difficult to say that a Christian can't own one.


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## tdowns

*I say....*

we open one,
The Puritan's Pub!!!! We can all post in the puritan's pub while drinking in it as well. lol


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Joseph.... as long as you don't allow hourly rates!



 but what about intenerant married couples who are just in a bad way . . .


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> we open one,
> The Puritan's Pub!!!! We can all post in the puritan's pub while drinking in it as well. lol




This is actually a GREAT idea, in my opinion! 

I know you were joking, but I am serious.

Why should we let the devil have all the pubs? Why not have a pub for Christ? Seriously!! Simply hire effective Presbyterian, Anglican, & Baptist bouncers who will throw people out if they start to get berschnickered.

Only Christ-honoring drinking related activities would be allowed.

The jukebox could be full of Christian music . . . there could even be a jukebox "Psalter only" night for the EP drinking crowd.


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## crhoades

It would be a sin to serve cheap beer.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> It would be a sin to serve cheap beer.



The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love. -- Law, the City of Augsburg, 13th Century


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> It would be a sin to serve cheap beer.



I would agree. However . . .

Scripture says that we are supposed to take care of widows, orphans, and the poor. . . .

But personally, I vote for a good German beer, a Sam Adams, or ANY wheat beer!


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## Michael Butterfield

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> A little harsh Michael. It is not quite impiety I do not think.
> 
> Could you run a restaurant that also serves alcohol? Say a Lonestar steakhouse? People drink there and our liberty would allow us to own and manage one I believe. Many places are called pub and grille or steakhouse and saloon. These things are not impiety. Apub is further down this continuum.



Apples and Oranges. Any good thinking individual will know the difference between a Lonestar Steakhouse and a pub/bar. You are parsing words and not really dealing with the issue In my humble opinion. I always love the way there is an attempt to tone the extreme with the norms and though A equaled B. You and I have both eaten in a Lonestar type of establishment and possibly drank a good beer with a slab of red meat, but to compare that to a bar is mixing apples and oranges.


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## Michael Butterfield

Bunch of libertines! :bigsmile:


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## biblelighthouse

Michael,

Who says a Christian has to run a pub just like everyone else?

Why not open a Christian-owned pub, with Christian-based rules? Simply DON'T ALLOW drunkenness, half-naked women, lude music, etc.

Enforce the correct rules, and I think you could create an excellent Christian pub that would honor the Lord!


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## RamistThomist

there is this pub in Monroe, Enoch's, and they don't have naked girls or excessive drinking (too expensive). It is Irish. Granted, other pubs could be different.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

"œIt is better to think of church in the ale-house than to think of the ale-house in church." - Martin Luther


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## Me Died Blue

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> "œIt is better to think of church in the ale-house than to think of the ale-house in church." - Martin Luther



That's brilliant!


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## Pilgrim

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> "œIt is better to think of church in the ale-house than to think of the ale-house in church." - Martin Luther


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## Puritanhead

"Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women?"
"”Martin Luther


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## Pilgrim

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> "Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women?"
> "”Martin Luther



Gotta love Bruder Martin


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## WrittenFromUtopia

Luther brought Bibles into the pubs of Wittenburg, did he not?


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## Puritanhead

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Luther brought Bibles into the pubs of Wittenburg, did he not?



Studying theology while eating pretzels, and drinking lager ales...


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## Puritanhead

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> Why not open a Christian-owned pub, with Christian-based rules? Simply DON'T ALLOW drunkenness, half-naked women, lude music, etc.



I guess that precludes my former roommate from "opening a pub..." We had all of the above, and a threat of eviction! I loathed my situation.


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## PuritanCovenanter

As I said before......"Maybe in Europe."

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by puritancovenanter]


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## Michael Butterfield

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> Michael,
> 
> Who says a Christian has to run a pub just like everyone else?
> 
> Why not open a Christian-owned pub, with Christian-based rules? Simply DON'T ALLOW drunkenness, half-naked women, lude music, etc.
> 
> Enforce the correct rules, and I think you could create an excellent Christian pub that would honor the Lord!



Bolderdash!


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## Michael Butterfield

You know guys, I suppose I like the 16th and 17th centuries better than most. I even, with you, pine for the "œglory" days. It is nice to talk about these subjects in the sanctified and sanitized confines of a board such as this. There are, however, stark realities about the present _zeitgeist_ that so completely mitigate against such a plan that it will not and cannot fly in our generation or in our day. You know it! We love the thirteenth century laws. I even drink Beck´s Dark because it is the beer that Martin Luther drank . It´s true! Look on the bottle and it will say "œBrewed under the German purity law of 1516". That is close enough to 1517 for me. Anyway, whether we like it or not our weaker brethren you are not thinking of. It is certainly a lack of love in the very least that would be demonstrated by such an absurd suggestion as a Christian pub that can glorify the Lord. Really. I know every one of you and you and am convinced it would be an utter failure in attaining the goal. It might not be you that causes the problem, but it would be someone. Oh, and please, do not give me the argument that we cannot allow the weaker brother to set the bounds of our liberty. He is exactly the one who does set the bounds of your liberty.



> *Romans 14:15-21*15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


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## Mike

I don't see why Christians should categorically not be allowed to own businesses whose main source of revenue is alcoholic beverages to be consumed on the premises.

Should Christians also not go to bars?


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## satz

> _Originally posted by Michael Butterfield_
> You know guys, I suppose I like the 16th and 17th centuries better than most. I even, with you, pine for the "œglory" days. It is nice to talk about these subjects in the sanctified and sanitized confines of a board such as this. There are, however, stark realities about the present _zeitgeist_ that so completely mitigate against such a plan that it will not and cannot fly in our generation or in our day. You know it! We love the thirteenth century laws. I even drink Beck´s Dark because it is the beer that Martin Luther drank . It´s true! Look on the bottle and it will say "œBrewed under the German purity law of 1516". That is close enough to 1517 for me. Anyway, whether we like it or not our weaker brethren you are not thinking of. It is certainly a lack of love in the very least that would be demonstrated by such an absurd suggestion as a Christian pub that can glorify the Lord. Really. I know every one of you and you and am convinced it would be an utter failure in attaining the goal. It might not be you that causes the problem, but it would be someone. Oh, and please, do not give me the argument that we cannot allow the weaker brother to set the bounds of our liberty. He is exactly the one who does set the bounds of your liberty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Romans 14:15-21*15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Click to expand...


Michael, your post made me think of something but i don't want to derail this thread so i hope you don't mind if i make your post a springboard for another topic.


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## gwine

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> we open one,
> The Puritan's Pub!!!! We can all post in the puritan's pub while drinking in it as well. lol



Wait a minute ! ! ! That was our idea !



> The jukebox could be full of Christian music . . . there could even be a jukebox "Psalter only" night for the EP drinking crowd.



Christian music. hmmmmmm. If you mean CCM, I am so going to barf.


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## Romans922

Isn't Pete Coor's, owner of Coor's brewing company, an elder in the PCA?


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> Isn't Pete Coor's, owner of Coor's brewing company, an elder in the PCA?



No, I think Peter Coors is Roman Catholic . . . at least a lot of people are saying that:

http://blog.au.org/2004/04/denvers_archbis.html
http://www.blinne.org/blog/religion/
http://coloradoluis.typepad.com/blog/2004/04/backlash.html


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## alwaysreforming

I think the detractors of this idea assume that a "Bar" inherently attracts immoral, flambouantly immoral, people.

What makes a bar is the "social norms" that are established inside, led by the owners and employees, and ratified by the clientele.

When idiots come in with their loud raucous and boisterous conduct, if its frowned upon, they either "conform", or leave. A Pub could easily build the clientele and atmosphere it seeks if it proactively steers the ship everyday and chops away everything indecent and reinforces those things that are good.

If people like "games", then they go to a sports bar. If they like "bumping and grinding", they go to a "party" bar.

And if "cheating" is what people are into, they can do that anywhere. A Christian Pub would be no more conducive to that than anywhere else.

There is no reason why Christian ownership couldn't foster an atmosphere of fun, relaxation, and good conversation, and serve his/her community by offering great customer service and quality of product in this arena. If Pubs were meant to be enjoyed in ages past, the same can be true today.

However, the original question asked about "from a strictly business standpoint", on which I don't think it is a very good idea. When you want to cater to Christians, its the pop evangelicalism that has all the money simply because the numbers are so large. To market a bar like this to Reformation-minded individuals would probably be inefficient; there simply is not a great enough concentration of them to be your potential clients.


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## Romans922

Well, someone from the Coor's family in Colorado is an elder in the PCA.


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## Pilgrim

Adolph Coors IV (?) is an evangelical, but I don't know what flavor. That could be who you're thinking of, Andrew. I don't think he has any connection with the family business anymore.


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## Michael Butterfield

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> I think the detractors of this idea assume that a "Bar" inherently attracts immoral, flambouantly immoral, people.
> 
> What makes a bar is the "social norms" that are established inside, led by the owners and employees, and ratified by the clientele.
> 
> When idiots come in with their loud raucous and boisterous conduct, if its frowned upon, they either "conform", or leave. A Pub could easily build the clientele and atmosphere it seeks if it proactively steers the ship everyday and chops away everything indecent and reinforces those things that are good.
> 
> . . . .



This is exactly what happens in a bar. They inherently attract . . .


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## VirginiaHuguenot

The White Horse Tavern in Cambridge, England is generally considered to the birthplace of the Cambridge wing of English Puritanism.



> By 1526, regular (rather subversive) theological discussions were being conducted in the White Horse Tavern in Cambridge. Participants included such future luminaries as Thomas Bilney, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, and Thomas Cranmer. Every one of the four was later martyred.


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## Anton Bruckner

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By 1526, regular (rather subversive) theological discussions were being conducted in the White Horse Tavern in Cambridge. Participants included such future luminaries as Thomas Bilney, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, and Thomas Cranmer. Every one of the four was later martyred.
Click to expand...

WOW


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## Michael Butterfield

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> The White Horse Tavern in Cambridge, England is generally considered to the birthplace of the Cambridge wing of English Puritanism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By 1526, regular (rather subversive) theological discussions were being conducted in the White Horse Tavern in Cambridge. Participants included such future luminaries as Thomas Bilney, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, and Thomas Cranmer. Every one of the four was later martyred.
Click to expand...


One should never say never, so I won't. But that 16th century example is not likely to happen in the 21st century.


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