# "Born of water" in John 3:5



## KMK (Jan 31, 2012)

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God. 

Do you believe 'water' in this verse refers to the ceremonial washings of the OT (Murray), or to Christian baptism (Calvin)? Or something else?


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## Jack K (Jan 31, 2012)

I suspect that water means cleansing (out with the old) while Spirit means renewal (in with the new). They are almost the same thing since cleansing and renewal go together in the transformation of a person who believes. But this singular transformation is sometimes spoken of in water/Spirit language, as in Ezekiel 36:25ff.

So water=cleansing makes it connected to both ceremonial washings and Christian baptism, but only in the sense that all three include the larger idea of cleansing. I guess that means my vote is for "something else."


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## baron (Jan 31, 2012)

I voted other. I go with Pink, if memory is right he says water represents the word of God.


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## J. Dean (Jan 31, 2012)

I've heard water also refers to natural birth. Don't know how accurate that is though.


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## Unoriginalname (Jan 31, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> I've heard water also refers to natural birth. Don't know how accurate that is though.


If that is accurate then all that means is you actually have to be physically born which doesn't seem to make sense unless the context was talking about the salvation of the unborn.  That said I am not well versed enough in issues on baptism to have an worthwhile opinion.


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## Bill The Baptist (Feb 1, 2012)

The reference to water could mean baptism, but that seems unlikely since Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. More likely it refers to Old Testament passages linking water and the spirit (Is.32:15, Is.44:3, Ezek.36:25-27)


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## CharlieJ (Feb 1, 2012)

If it refers to the Spirit and/or to cleansing from sin, then it refers to baptism, at least by way of sacramental sign and reality. They are linked throughout the New Testament. I think this is one of those "What God has joined together, let not man separate" things.


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 1, 2012)

I think "water and spirit" need to be taken together as one reality. Jesus is alluding to the idea found in passages like Ezekiel 36:25-27 and is making reference to the sovereign work of God to bring about cleansing and new life.


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## Chellemonkey (Feb 1, 2012)

I think I agree with Ben and Jack. Isn't the reformed position that baptism is not essential for salvation? If this verse is speaking of baptism then Jesus here is saying that baptism IS necessary for salvation... In which case any of those who believe in believers baptism better switch to paedo baptism asap! 

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

And I guess that means I just found the first thing I disagree with Calvin about...


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## KMK (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the input from everyone. It is interesting to see the variety of opinions.



Chellemonkey said:


> And I guess that means I just found the first thing I disagree with Calvin about...



Calvin's view is more nuanced than you might think. Even if 'water' does refer to Christian baptism (which is how John's original audience would have understood it, in my opinion), it doesn't mean that it refers strictly to the outward sign, but also to the spiritual reality to which the sign points.


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## Romans922 (Feb 1, 2012)

The passage is talking about be born again or born from above, that act of regeneration by the Spirit. Going with Ez. 36 (which has already been described) this is talking about the washing of regeneration, where the Spirit is poured out upon the elect (Titus 3:4ff - "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the *washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit*, whom *he poured out on us *richly through Jesus Christ our Savior...").

As we think of this, this is what the sign and seal of water baptism points us to. As a sign, baptism is not the reality itself but points to the reality of the washing of regeneration (like a railroad SIGN pointing us to the reality of the railroad ahead). But John 3 itself isn't focusing on water baptism as some other passages do, this passage is showing us the straight doctrine of regeneration.


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## Chellemonkey (Feb 1, 2012)

KMK said:


> Thanks for all the input from everyone. It is interesting to see the variety of opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to look into how Calvin explains it but I do think that Ben put it correctly when he said that you can't separate the water from the spirit. I think you are saying pretty much the same thing that John is speaking of what the outward sign is pointing to. I would tend to not say that it is baptism without some clarification though, because when most speak of baptism it is often thought to be the outward sign.

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

I was typing at the same time as Andrew and he said it much better than I.
Thank you for explaining what I was having trouble verbalizing, Andrew!


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