# But Jesus Hung Out with Sinners



## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 6, 2013)

I wasn't sure where to put this so I am sticking it here. LOL


Mark Lamprecht wrote a short blog today that was quite simple and a challenging observation in my mind. This isn't about Politics so please don't go there. The topic is based upon a recent incident that is becoming political but Mark focused on something I really appreciated. It was based upon the common argument that many Christians use to justify going places and doing things we probably shouldn't. I have to admit that I have done that before. And I have used the same argument, that Jesus hung out with sinners, to justify some behavior I probably shouldn't have partaken in also. 

Here is a small quote from the blog.




> That would be the – But Jesus hung out with sinners – trump card.
> 
> 
> I want to give one, simple statement showing why I don’t think the wild card in question is as playable as some think. My simple statement should also show why many of us believe the Christian bakery owners were right by not participating in ungodly matrimony. The basic idea is that while Jesus may have hung out with sinners and tax collectors, he was not helping them celebrate their sinfulness.




Anyways, give the short blog a read. Jesus hung out with sinners | Jesus did not promote sin | worldly I was challenged and encouraged by the observation Mark made.


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## ReformedChristian (Sep 6, 2013)

I agree Jesus did hang with sinners of his day but the difference is with each encounter he had with them brought a convicting message of repentance and to trust God that is the difference. Im not sure if you heard this before but many even use Paul in this context to justify their case in first 1st Cor 9:19-23 cause Paul says he becomes all things to all men. They treat this as to say if we are going to win sinners we have to act like them. Have you heard that?


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## littlepeople (Sep 6, 2013)

Thanks for posting it Randy


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## SinnerSavedByChrist (Sep 7, 2013)

ReformedChristian said:


> I agree Jesus did hang with sinners of his day but the difference is with each encounter he had with them brought a convicting message of repentance and to trust God that is the difference. Im not sure if you heard this before but many even use Paul in this context to justify their case in first 1st Cor 9:19-23 cause Paul says he becomes all things to all men. They treat this as to say if we are going to win sinners we have to act like them. Have you heard that?



Glad I'm not the only person out there appalled with the use of "I became all things to all men" as justification for all kinds of seeker-sensitive error.


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## GloriousBoaz (Sep 7, 2013)

Jesus never condoned sin, and notice He didn't hang out with the unrepentant pharisees (He did the repentant like Nicodemus) .


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## sevenzedek (Sep 7, 2013)

SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> ReformedChristian said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Jesus did hang with sinners of his day but the difference is with each encounter he had with them brought a convicting message of repentance and to trust God that is the difference. Im not sure if you heard this before but many even use Paul in this context to justify their case in first 1st Cor 9:19-23 cause Paul says he becomes all things to all men. They treat this as to say if we are going to win sinners we have to act like them. Have you heard that?
> ...



Where do we draw the line? Paul had Timothy circumcised, as you know. Was he tacitly condoning circumcision? Perhaps others saw it that way. What else could be done along these same lines? Maybe getting a tattoo to make one more approachable to the biker crowd...? Maybe going to the bar to witness to drunk people who always seem willing to talk...? Maybe dressing like the current culture as did Hudson Taylor...? Maybe purchasing a bible other than a KJV for someone who is new to the faith and not good with words...? (Oops.) Given the right set of circumstances, I would do all these things; but where do we draw the line? Practicing Paul's example will always seem to toe the line. Some practices, however, I would argue should not be done. Going to the strip joint to witness... Watching a filthy movie in order to build an evangelistic relationship... Smoking a joint with someone in order to deliver a gospel message... There is being around sin and then there is actually practicing sin or making one's self weak to it.


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## ZackF (Sep 7, 2013)

ReformedChristian said:


> I agree Jesus did hang with sinners of his day but the difference is with each encounter he had with them brought a convicting message of repentance and to trust God that is the difference. Im not sure if you heard this before but many even use Paul in this context to justify their case in first 1st Cor 9:19-23 cause Paul says he becomes all things to all men. They treat this as to say if we are going to win sinners we have to act like them. Have you heard that?



Actually Jesus didn't always talk about repentance in every situation. Jerram Barrs has some excellent material on this very subject. It is not always appropriate to speak of repentance in a every situation. We must pray for discernment and timing.


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## ZackF (Sep 7, 2013)

GloriousBoaz said:


> Jesus never condoned sin, and notice He didn't hang out with the unrepentant pharisees (He did the repentant like Nicodemus) .




No he didn't condone sin but he was often accused of condoning and even sinning personally. He was at a Pharisee's house when the women broke the alabaster jar at his feet.


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## ZackF (Sep 7, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> SinnerSavedByChrist said:
> 
> 
> > ReformedChristian said:
> ...



I don't think we are to "practice" sinful behavior but we often(like the Pharisees) equate not practicing sin with disassociation with sinners. The former is godly the later is not.


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## GloriousBoaz (Sep 7, 2013)

Check out Luke 11 Jesus is at dinner with the pharisee presumably at his house and he starts unleashing "woe" after "woe" on them.

The difference between us and Christ is He knows their hearts, we can only go on fruit.

I always think of a song lyric at the most inopportune times where I just want to keep my mouth shut or keep on walking; this song lyric is in the context of a song about how he is not walking closely with the Lord as of late: "Oh Lord I was in the midst of sinners and did not discuss you"



> It is not always appropriate to speak of repentance in a every situation. We must pray for discernment and timing.



I'm wondering if you can show us some scripture references for this? Thanks!



> He was at a Pharisee's house when the women broke the alabaster jar at his feet.



If you read luke 7 closely you will see that Jesus did not sit silent at Simon the Pharisees' house in front of Simon's wrong heart and remarks, and Simon's answer indicates that perhaps his heart was changing or soft, only Christ knew at that moment if he was elect. The other's who mocked Him for forgiving sins had the most visual scene of preaching and witnessing true love and repentance, this is no where close to going to the night club and sitting with people and watching them joke about the women they've slept with or sitting around will people at your friend's house smoke weed or get drunk but you don't partake to be a Christian witness because you don't open your mouth to be one either.



> No he didn't condone sin but he was often accused of condoning and even sinning personally.



But this was in a Jewish legalistic majority culture whereas our is majority pagan and lose living. Also as Paul Washer said once that if persecution came to America and Christians are being burnt or beheaded in the streets its not going to be anounced and sentenced as a glorious martyr for Christ many times it will be by teh accusation of us being rapists, or terrorists, or unpatriots, or indoctrinators of children, or hate crime perpetrators against homosexuals, etc. All of God's holy men have had their names, and character's slandered.



> I don't think we are to "practice" sinful behavior but we often(like the Pharisees) equate not practicing sin with disassociation with sinners. The former is godly the later is not.



This is good I meant to make this point. I have an unspoken distinction in my mind. My brothers, sisters family and friends are Christians, but I have many unbelieving acquaintances and unless some act of sacrificial service requires me to go onto their turf most of the time I bring them onto my turf so as not to be outnumber (go 2 by 2) or to have someone who is a younger or weaker christian see me in a situation, misjudge it and therefore I become a stumbling block to them. Yes i am not saying to hide from the world by any means, but be careful to guard your self. It is the difference between going into a strip club to pass out tracts and standing outside to hand them out.


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## ZackF (Sep 7, 2013)

GloriousBoaz said:


> Check out Luke 11 Jesus is at dinner with the pharisee presumably at his house and he starts unleashing "woe" after "woe" on them.



Of course. It was the perfect thing to be done for that person at that time. Our Lord did it!! 



> The difference between us and Christ is He knows their hearts, we can only go on fruit.



I agree that Christ knows our heart most perfectly. We know that mens' hearts are desperately wicked.



> I always think of a song lyric at the most inopportune times where I just want to keep my mouth shut or keep on walking; this song lyric is in the context of a song about how he is not walking closely with the Lord as of late: "Oh Lord I was in the midst of sinners and did not discuss you"



We should be grateful when the Lord stays our tongues. Sometimes it is most inappropriate to say certain things.



> It is not always appropriate to speak of repentance in a every situation. We must pray for discernment and timing.





> I'm wondering if you can show us some scripture references for this? Thanks!



You want me to list huge passages of biblical narrative and didactic passage where repentance isn't mentioned? Surely not. Was the Lord wrong when he didn't ask the RYR to repent?



> He was at a Pharisee's house when the women broke the alabaster jar at his feet.





> If you read luke 7 closely you will see that Jesus did not sit silent at Simon the Pharisees' house in front of Simon's wrong heart and remarks, and Simon's answer indicates that perhaps his heart was changing or soft, only Christ knew at that moment if he was elect. The other's who mocked Him for forgiving sins had the most visual scene of preaching and witnessing true love and repentance, this is no where close to going to the night club and sitting with people and watching them joke about the women they've slept with or sitting around will people at your friend's house smoke weed or get drunk but you don't partake to be a Christian witness because you don't open your mouth to be one either.



My example was that he went to a Pharisee's house not that he didn't rebuke the Pharisees. Jesus' harshest words were to the Pharisees..the "believers" of the day and not the sinners. I don't understand the last sentence completely. My weed credits are nonexistent but that is not my point. My past regrettably includes a few nights of a little too much to drink. Again, not my point. Imbibing a substance that leaves you out of control or imbibing to a level that leaves us out of control isn't our calling. My point that it is not always appropriate to share the Gospel in every situation. We have to pray for discernment. Sometimes the time will be minutes, days, hour or years from when we meet someone if ever. Different Christians are called to be in various situations with different people. We are not all called to be missionaries in Russia or Saudi Arabia. Some are. A bar would be very unlikely a totally inappropriate place for a person who has came out bondage to alcohol. 



> > No he didn't condone sin but he was often accused of condoning and even sinning personally.
> 
> 
> 
> But this was in a Jewish legalistic majority culture whereas our is majority pagan and lose living. Also as Paul Washer said once that if persecution came to America and Christians are being burnt or beheaded in the streets its not going to be anounced and sentenced as a glorious martyr for Christ many times it will be by teh accusation of us being rapists, or terrorists, or unpatriots, or indoctrinators of children, or hate crime perpetrators against homosexuals, etc. All of God's holy men have had their names, and character's slandered.


[/quote]

I don't think we disagree here but again to reiterate; Christ directed a huge portion of his ministry toward those in "loose living" and was indeed harsh with those bent on upholding a sinful separation from their sinful neighbors and fencing the law.


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## GloriousBoaz (Sep 8, 2013)

> You want me to list huge passages of biblical narrative and didactic passage where repentance isn't mentioned? Surely not. Was the Lord wrong when he didn't ask the RYR to repent?



Yes I do actually. And what is RYR sorry?



> My point that it is not always appropriate to share the Gospel in every situation



1 cor. 9:16 & Jer 20:8

Whenever I speak, I cry out
proclaiming violence and destruction.
So the word of the Lord has brought me
insult and reproach all day long.
9 But if I say, “I will not mention his word
or speak anymore in his name,”
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.



> We have to pray for discernment.



i wholeheartedly agree



> I don't think we disagree here but again to reiterate



I'm glad we see some of this eye to eye, perhaps we are seeing the same truth from two different angles because of our own personal presuppositions and personalities, it happens on this subject I have noticed. Good talk!


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## ZackF (Sep 8, 2013)

and should just pr



> Yes I do actually. And what is RYR sorry?



Rich Young Ruler. In this case Our Lord gave the Law but not the Gospel. I think the most reasonable conclusion is that in His discernment Christ new the man wasn't ready for the Gospel only the Law. God has also seen fit to leave us an entire book(Esther) without mentioning Himself. That's for starters.



> My point that it is not always appropriate to share the Gospel in every situation





> 1 cor. 9:16 & Jer 20:8
> 
> Whenever I speak, I cry out
> proclaiming violence and destruction.
> ...



Again, what do you exactly say and when?





> I'm glad we see some of this eye to eye, perhaps we are seeing the same truth from two different angles because of our own personal presuppositions and personalities, it happens on this subject I have noticed. Good talk!



We all have presuppositions indeed. I'm glad you think I have a personality too.  Agreed, good talk.


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## Philip (Sep 8, 2013)

KS_Presby said:


> I don't think we are to "practice" sinful behavior but we often(like the Pharisees) equate not practicing sin with disassociation with sinners. The former is godly the later is not.



If associating with sinners equals practicing sin, I think asceticism is in order.


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## GloriousBoaz (Sep 9, 2013)

> Rich Young Ruler. In this case Our Lord gave the Law but not the Gospel. I think the most reasonable conclusion is that in His discernment Christ new the man wasn't ready for the Gospel only the Law. God has also seen fit to leave us an entire book(Esther) without mentioning Himself. That's for starters.



You should read through a thread a month or so ago where I was arguing for preaching the law at times without the gospel and everyone ganged up on me lol. I think it was called "Law prior to gospel"

I guess I was just saying there is no reason not to bring God's word into a conversation/meeting/hangout anytime in light of such scriptures as: "By the foolishness of preaching God saw fit to save some" "God's word will not return void" & "Faith comes through hearing and hearing the word of God" even if that is just the law for a time to make them see their need, then gospel if they harden not their hearts. I am probably just over reacting in some ways against the movements i've come up against in the mainstream evangelical and some times pentecostal streams I have associated with in the past or encountered on the streets where they are social gospelers and won't preach the Word, in reality they are ashamed of Christ and think that social justice is more important and that the gospel amounts not to justification by faith in Christ to save us from hell, but in helping the poor. They sling around that quote from St. Francis of Asisi: "Preach the gospel with your actions; and if necessary use words" I despise that quote. It is not either/or it is both/and.


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