# Praying with the pope?



## Josiah (Jun 4, 2008)

I cant believe it, but here it is courtesy of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church's news page:



> *Praying with the Pope*
> Moderator-elect Allen Roes represented the EPC at a prayer meeting hosted by Pope Benedict XVI on April 18 in New York City. He files this report:
> 
> "What a great experience to represent the EPC at an ecumenical meeting of Christian leaders with Pope Benedict XVI! Held at St. Joseph Parish Church in downtown New York City, the theme of the prayer meeting was ‘Christ, Our Hope in Unity." This church was established by the German community of New York. It was suspected that this location was selected because of the Pope's German background.
> ...





I dont want to step on anyones toes by posting this, but I thought I might share it because it suprised me. I was under the impression that this church (as a whole) was Reformed/Calvinist leaning but not committed to (non-essentials). Is this right? If so, why then would they then attend a prayer meeting with the pope!

I had a friend who'm was himself a member of this church who played a role in my coming out of Arminianism and dispensationalism. I wonder what my friend Bruce would say if he saw this? 

thoughts on this?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 4, 2008)

Josiah said:


> thoughts on this?


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## Zenas (Jun 4, 2008)

*sigh* 

2nd Presbyterian Church (EPC) here in Memphis was the 1st church I attended after I converted. They struck me as fairly solid at the time. There were no female elders or deacons, the teaching elder was an unabashed monergist, and preached several sermons advocating a literal reading of Genesis. From him, I never got the impression that they sacrificed the "non essentials", but one congregation doesn't betray the hearts and minds of the denomination. 

*sigh*


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 4, 2008)

Zenas said:


> *sigh*
> 
> 2nd Presbyterian Church (EPC) here in Memphis was the 1st church I attended after I converted. They struck me as fairly solid at the time. There were no female elders or deacons, the teaching elder was an unabashed monergist, and preached several sermons advocating a literal reading of Genesis. From him, I never got the impression that they sacrificed the "non essentials", but one congregation doesn't betray the hearts and minds of the denomination.
> 
> *sigh*



Indeed. Even though I would never join the denomination as a whole, I definitely was always edified by the sound exegetical preaching I heard the few times I visited 2nd when I lived in Memphis. Even so, anymore I'm less and less surprised by pretty much _anything_ I see going on in evangelical (or Roman Catholic) circles for that matter.

I'm also very thankful for the biblical, confessional liturgy faithfully followed for worship each week at the church I'm attending, since even in PCA, OPC and other Reformed and Presbyterian congregations, things like contemporary worship services are all-too-common anymore. So I'm not at all surprised that the EPC would support that prayer. I simply pray that God will somehow use it to His glory and the ultimate good of the Church, even if it is something so seemingly small as to cause surprise to certain EPC or other believers, and in turn result in them possibly rethinking their theology in more detail.


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## Galatians220 (Jun 4, 2008)

Thank you for this heads-up. I have forwarded it to EPC friends (this area served as a spawning ground for that church, as many here may know).

It's revolting. It's positively disgusting.

The next logical step is for members of the EPC to be encouraged to go out and buy rosaries - _and make sure they pray them!_ I have a 40-year-old, pink crystal one, a gift from my grandmother, that I was either going to flush or drop from a substantial height. Not going to hand it off to some EPC member, though, even if rosaries soon become _de rigueur_ in the EPC: I still care too much for the souls who are being deceived by office-holders in that church who think it's okay to pray with the "Vicar of Christ." 

Good grief. What a *horrible* development in the EPC...

Margaret


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## jaybird0827 (Jun 4, 2008)

Noooooooooo!

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me, the fine record of 2nd Church Memphis notwithstanding (our son went there when he attended Rhodes College).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 4, 2008)

The EPC, in my experience, is the broadest of the Broad Evangelical.


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## staythecourse (Jun 4, 2008)

All hail the ecumenical movement! We WILL all be of one belief with the Christ of our own choosing! Isn't that great news?


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## Josiah (Jun 4, 2008)

> Indeed. Even though I would never join the denomination as a whole, I definitely was always edified by the sound exegetical preaching I heard the few times I visited 2nd when I lived in Memphis. Even so, anymore I'm less and less surprised by pretty much _anything_ I see going on in evangelical (or Roman Catholic) circles for that matter.



It sounds like 2nd is sort of an anomaly in the EPC, I wonder what keeps them from joining the OPC, ARP or the PCA? 



> I'm also very thankful for the biblical, confessional liturgy faithfully followed for worship each week at the church I'm attending, since even in PCA, OPC and other Reformed and Presbyterian congregations, things like contemporary worship services are all-too-common anymore. So I'm not at all surprised that the EPC would support that prayer. I simply pray that God will somehow use it to His glory and the ultimate good of the Church, even if it is something so seemingly small as to cause surprise to certain EPC or other believers, and in turn result in them possibly rethinking their theology in more detail.



Indeed, as am I thankful for it. I know that there are some *minor* elements of the OPC that stray a bit from the DPW. I believe that OPC is amending the DPW in certain places in order to clarify the church's possition on public worship. 

I suppose my limited contact with friends in the EPC has sort of given me the impression that they are perhaps more or less as a whole united around reformed convictions and would never meet with the pope to pray (unless it was to pray for him). I think that you are right about this being a great opportunity for people in the EPC to re-think things a bit. That is my prayer anyway. I think that the EPC for all its difficulties ought to confront these issues, not defering to slogans about liberty in non-essentials and if they would do so they might make the right decisions at the GA and become a stronger church for it.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jun 4, 2008)

I served for 16 years as a teaching elder in the EPC. For me, it was an “ecclesiastical bridge” to a more a more confessional position. I was never asked to compromise my position as one on the Reformed and confessional fringes of the denomination. [BTW: When I met my wife she said, “You are the fringe of the EPC.”]

The EPC is a composite of different degrees of Reformed and Presbyterian congregations. The theological culture differs much from one presbytery to another. Central South, which includes Second Presbyterian in Memphis, is the most conservative. The Presbytery of the West has been one of the less Reformed and more “Essentialist” presbyteries. The denomination still has conservative men like Rob Norris of Fourth Presbyterian Church, Bethesda.

The EPC serves an important purpose for the present. Where else would “conservative” congregations departing the PCUSA go? Few of them would fit into the PCA or OPC. We don’t need another EPC like denomination. The EPC may serve as a “bridge” for some of them in transition. Some PCA congregations moving in the other direction may also find a home there. I certainly don’t understand why some departing the PCA have opted for the RCA over the EPC.

The EPC has created an inescapable handicap for themselves. Their constitution includes an non amendable provision allowing local congregations to decide if they will ordain women officers and presbyteries the option of ordaining or receiving women teaching elders. They can’t get out of this as the EPC. Their only option is for congregations to leave as congregations and join a more conservative denomination. This provision is a time bomb for them. When a denomination makes women’s ordination a mere culturally conditioned matter, Scripture is no longer unique and authoritative.

I value the many friends and fine Christians I knew in the EPC. They were supportive of me in some dark days when my late wife was dying and I was involved in a difficult ministry. I’m glad for my time spent with them. I’m sorry to see them becoming more “egalitarian” and “essentialist” rather than Reformed and confessional. But, many individuals and a few congregations may yet find themselves moving in that direction.

I’m content to be where I am presently in the OPC. I believe I’m the first and to this date only EPC teaching elder to move to the OPC.

I’m also disappointed to see leadership publicizing their meeting with the Anti-Christ. I was asked if I wanted to meet with the Dalai Lama when he came to Idaho a couple years ago. I responded, “I use to raise milk goats; but I don’t know much about llamas.”


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## raekwon (Jun 4, 2008)

Zenas said:


> *sigh*
> 
> 2nd Presbyterian Church (EPC) here in Memphis was the 1st church I attended after I converted. They struck me as fairly solid at the time. There were no female elders or deacons, the teaching elder was an unabashed monergist, and preached several sermons advocating a literal reading of Genesis. From him, I never got the impression that they sacrificed the "non essentials", *but one congregation doesn't betray the hearts and minds of the denomination.*
> 
> *sigh*



Nor does one man's participation in this necessarily betray the hearts and minds of the denomination (even if he's the moderator-elect).


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## Stephen (Jun 4, 2008)

My thoughts on the matter are the same as Daniel's  I cannot believe that their are congregations within the EPC that would not stand up and cry, ICABOD. What a departure from the gospel. I pray that the Lord would have mercy on them. I do not believe that a denomination that enters into this kind of thing is evangelical or Reformed.


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## Zenas (Jun 4, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> Noooooooooo!
> 
> Sadly, this doesn't surprise me, the fine record of 2nd Church Memphis notwithstanding (our son went there when he attended Rhodes College).



Yikes, he attended Rhodes? 

As I understand it, Freshman year there is a crash course in trying to make you deny your faith in Christianity.

In encouraging news though, RUF has recently been allowed on their campus as an official student ministry.


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## Zenas (Jun 4, 2008)

Josiah said:


> It sounds like 2nd is sort of an anomaly in the EPC, I wonder what keeps them from joining the OPC, ARP or the PCA?



They are a very, very old church here in town and Independent Presbyterian (PCA), of John Sartelle fame, is a split from them, If I recall correctly. If they joined the ARP, our membership in the Presbytery would double overnight as they have a few thousand in their membership.


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## Josiah (Jun 4, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like 2nd is sort of an anomaly in the EPC, I wonder what keeps them from joining the OPC, ARP or the PCA?
> ...



Wow! Perhaps their presence in the EPC is good and indicative of the Lords work within that church. This is just a little  but I have never seen more than perhaps 50 people coming to worship in a conservative Presbyterian church, so your mention of them having a few thousand in membership seems pretty unreal (although I am sure it is not)


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## Zenas (Jun 4, 2008)

Josiah said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > Josiah said:
> ...



Errr? Both 2nd and Independent have congregations well over 1,000 and both are conservative, Reformed, Presbyterian churches. 

Now, they pale in comparison to Bellevue Baptist Church, the Arminian SBC mega-church with members in the 10,000's.


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## Josiah (Jun 4, 2008)

> Errr? Both 2nd and Independent have congregations well over 1,000 and both are conservative, Reformed, Presbyterian churches.
> 
> Now, they pale in comparison to Bellevue Baptist Church, the Arminian SBC mega-church with members in the 10,000's.



Now I know that I dont get out much!


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## Galatians220 (Jun 4, 2008)

Some historic data re: the EPC -

Current web site of the birthplace of the EPC: www.wardchurch.org. (It used to be just www.wardepc.org.) Their present interim - and much-loved - senior pastor is a Congregationalist who desperately seeks to turn Ward away from Reformed theology. How do I know? A dear and *first-degree* family member is there every Sunday... 

I was a member of Ward for almost 9 years; loved Dr. Bartlett Hess; thought it was Reformed in those years. Found out through independent reading, study and talking to others of the Reformed persuasion that it was not.

In a nutshell, Ward is explicitly in the process of becoming a clone of NorthRidge Church: NorthRidge Church. NorthRidge has *numbers,* and that's what Ward wants. (_Cf._ 2 Samuel 24:10.) NorthRidge, before it moved to its fancy digs in Plymouth Twp., was Detroit's venerable old Temple Baptist, probably the most popular, and later popular African-American, church on the west side of Detroit. The current pastor, however, didn't want a "denominational assignment" in *his* church's name, and so Temple Baptist became "NorthRidge Church." Totally non-denominational, and thoroughly and unapologetically Arminian, CCM-singing... 

Because of its geographical location and general (literal) Starbuck's ambience, NorthRidge, once settled in tony Plymouth from a fairly nice building just inside the Detroit city limits, quickly began to siphon people from Ward. Ward had a seismic upheaval in its administration in 2006, when its pastor was fired very publicly in the annual congregational meeting that over 2,000 people attended. A friend of mine described it to me... I still don't know what was really behind it; I do know that this pastor had solid Reformed credentials.

After that, and even before that happened, this birthplace of the EPC had been hemorrhaging profusely in membership and attendance. It had gone from about 5,600 members to around 2,500-3,000. _*Whatever to do?*_  _"Let's become like NorthRidge! That'll bring the people back!"_ And so it embarked upon that goal without further ado, jettisoning anyone who wanted to keep anything Reformed about it.

As Ward EPC goes, so will go the rest of the EPC, eventually. It's already happening.

_"So sad to see good Reformed churches go bad..."_ And if you know what song I'm paraphrasing there, .

Margaret


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## jaybird0827 (Jun 4, 2008)

Zenas said:


> jaybird0827 said:
> 
> 
> > Noooooooooo!
> ...


 
Surprisingly he found a lot of support there, including his advisor. One of his other sources of encouragement was a weekly Bible study that was put on by Second Presbyterian.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 4, 2008)

Galatians220 said:


> Some historic data re: the EPC -
> 
> Current web site of the birthplace of the EPC: www.wardchurch.org. (It used to be just www.wardepc.org.) Their present interim - and much-loved - senior pastor is a Congregationalist who desperately seeks to turn Ward away from Reformed theology. How do I know? A dear and *first-degree* family member is there every Sunday...
> 
> ...



Oh to be like Egypt.


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## Galatians220 (Jun 4, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Oh to be like Egypt.


 
  

(It's *"face-off time,"* BP!!! May the best team win - _I mean that!_  )

Margaret


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 4, 2008)

Lets Go Pens!!!


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## Zenas (Jun 4, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > jaybird0827 said:
> ...



I'm glad to hear it. I've heard of many students who have walked out of their first year broken and hurt.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jun 5, 2008)

Galatians220 said:


> S
> Current web site of the birthplace of the EPC: www.wardchurch.org. (It used to be just www.wardepc.org.) Their present interim - and much-loved - senior pastor is a Congregationalist who desperately seeks to turn Ward away from Reformed theology. How do I know? A dear and *first-degree* family member is there every Sunday...
> 
> I was a member of Ward for almost 9 years; loved Dr. Bartlett Hess; thought it was Reformed in those years. Found out through independent reading, study and talking to others of the Reformed persuasion that it was not.



Many of the Michigan EP churches have sought to be more “seeker sensitive” than Reformed. I attended a pre-GA church planting seminar at Ward in 1990, during their Bartlett Hess (who was a wonderful man) and pre-move days. The seminar was put together by leadership from a couple Ward daughter congregations. Almost everything presented was how to plant a “seeker sensitive” church. I kept wondering where the Reformed theology was in all this. 

Seems many in the original EPC core were congregations with old UPCNA roots. Later, they were joined by some Southern congregations exercising their Article 13 option to leave with their property after the 1983 merger of UPCUSA and PCUS.

In my flight from the PCUSA, in which I had been a candidate but not ordained, I found a welcome home among believers in the EPC. As my understanding of Reformed theology and worship grew, I was increasingly frustrated. Not long after I married my wife, she attended an EPC presbytery meeting with me. In the middle of the sermon at an evening worship service, she walked out when she heard Arminian blasphemy spoken from the pulpit. I missed it entirely, being distracted by something else at the time. Such things pass unnoticed all the time in the EPC. They’re “too nice” to pick a fight. I’m pleased to be part of the OPC where fights are regular occurrences; yet there is genuine respect for those who differ.

Remember also, the average EPC member is in a congregation of 1000 or more. These are often large evangelical congregations which survived by functioning like independent congregations within their former liberal denominations. This leads to a mind-set more Congregational than Presbyterian. Fighting for essential truths for too long leaves them less concerned about important non-essentials. This mix will be watered down more by the current influx of PCUSA congregations making their way into the EPC. I’m glad they’re going there rather than starting a new denomination. But, all EPC’ers need to restudy the confessions and give greater consideration to the Regulative Principle in regard to polity and worship.


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