# Miracle: Water turned into grape juice?



## blhowes (Sep 19, 2004)

Tonight I heard an excellent sermon about the miracle that Jesus did at the wedding feast in Cana. What a blessing it was to hear how it pictures, among other things, the abundant forgiveness that Jesus provides.

I have always been taught that it was unfermented wine - ie., grape juice. I just wanted to see if anybody knew of any historical evidence that would support that idea? Was it the custom in those days to drink grape juice at weddings (instead of wine)?

If it was alcoholic wine, by the time Jesus did the miracle, wouldn't the people have by that time passed what we nowadays call drinking in moderation? Wouldn't they have been well on the way to drinking in excess? 

Also, why did they call it 'good wine'? What's the difference between 'good wine' and the regular wine?


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## turmeric (Sep 19, 2004)

That was the whole point-usually people didn't care what they were drinking by that point so the host could bring out the cheap stuff - but this was so good it surprised people. I have read somewhere that wine all around the Medditerranean was often diluted with water, but it was still alcoholic.


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## ChristianasJourney (Sep 19, 2004)

I've read a couple of books regarding this...I found the arguments to be weak at best. The idea is that "new wine" refers to grape juice. But I tend to believe that wine, indeed means wine.

And mind you, I DON'T drink alcohol...But I try not to stretch scripture to support my view, either.


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## luvroftheWord (Sep 19, 2004)

The real miracle is the transubstantiation that takes place in Evangelical churches. The cracker and grape juice miraculously turns into bread and wine, even though the appearance doesn't change.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Bob,

I'm not sure I can answer all your questions, but I would like to offer my take on the miracle of Jesus at the Cana wedding feast. 

First, the word used, according to my understanding (I don't claim to know Greek), is "oinos" (which does indicate a fermented drink). It comes as no surprise to me that Jesus would create fermented wine on this occasion to demonstrate God's blessing upon His ministry. This was His very first miracle which is so appropos given that Scripture elsewhere makes reference to wine in the context of marital love (see for example numerous references in the Song of Solomon to the effect that wine is a symbol of the joy found in marital love). We know that God gives good gifts, one of which is wine, which gladdens the heart of man (Ps. 104.14-15). The Lord He was accused of being a drunkard (Luke 7.33-35), which hardly makes any sense if He only partook of non-fermented grape juice; the Lord used wine in the Last Supper; and wine was certainly used in the Lord's Supper in Corinth because the Apostle Paul says that some who partook were actually drunk but no where does he tell them to drink something non-fermented instead of what they obviously were drinking (1 Cor. 11.21). All this is to say that God has put His stamp of approval of wine, which is a blessed gift to be enjoyed, especially at an occasion of happy celebration. God has not said that grape juice cheers of the heart of man, but rather wine; why then should "oinos" be thought of as something besides wine?

Second, the wine made by Jesus was no doubt high quality. Can we imagine the Lord making something that was not high quality? Ken Gentry speaks at length about how He likely made a goodly quantity for the party (in the neighborhood of 120 gallons, he says, based on the meaning of the term firkins, see v. 6) and it is referred to as "good wine" (Matthew Henry's Commentary says "It was the best wine."). Gentry elaborates (and cites resources) that "good wine" usually means "aged wine" (which can in the context of the first century only be fermented). Certainly, "good wine" is superior to both diluted wine or "new wine." It frankly makes no sense at all to think of "good wine" as "grape juice." The only reason to interpret the phrase that way is because of an underlying assumption that prohibitionists bring to the text that Jesus would not do something that might facilitate sinful drunkeness. 

Third, I think the modern mindset has a certain assumption about what level of alcohol consumption constitutes drunkeness. States, at the direction of the federal government, have set .08% as the level beyond which constitutes DUI. However, that amount has no Biblical warrant. I think for one thing that each person has a different tolerance to alcohol and no one percentage is sufficient to universally describe drunkeness. The Pilgrims on the Mayflower, like most English in that day, drank an average of one gallon of beer per day. That amount may seem shocking to us, but the Pilgrims were no doubt godly folks and few dispute that. When the Maylflower left Holland for America, it had an official supply (not counting the supplies brought by each family) of 42 tons of beer, 10,000 gallons of wine and 14 tons of fresh water, as well as supplies for brewing up to 7,560 gallons of malt. However, by the time they landed they were out of beer, but not water. It is well-known how much Luther loved his beer (the German beer brewing purity law was established the year before the Reformation began). Luther said "Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?" Part of Calvin's annual salary paid by the city of Geneva included "two bassets (perhaps 250 gallons) of wine." These men of God drank wine, not grape juice. There is no historical evidence to believe that the Church used a non-fermented beverage in the Lord's Supper until the advent of pasteurized grape juice in the 19th century thanks to the work of Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, who wanted to invent a non-fermented sacramental wine - see http://www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html The testimony of Church history is not on the level of Biblical testimony, but it should be valued since so many Reformers and godly men of old never questioned the use of wine, whether at the feast of Cana, or in the Lord's Supper, or at one's dining room table. 

So, were those folks at the wedding feast partaking of the good stuff and therefore getting drunk? There is a phrase that a PCA minister once used to describe the state of their inebriation: "lawfully tipsy." The folks were not about to drive home in their cars. They likely stayed in one place for several days. They probably consumed more than most of us in modern America could lawfully consume but were they drunk? Did the Lord contribute to sin on their part? I believe not. The Lord gave them good wine for use in the celebration of marriage and used this miracle as a demonstration of God's unction upon His ministry. In that context, I believe that the wedding party was given a gift to enjoy to the fullest, yet without sin. Exactly what level of merriment was achieved through the help of wine I cannot say, but I believe they were merry in a lawful way with the help of God's blessed gift of wine.

I realize that I have not answered every objection that can be thrown out against the use of alcoholic beverages in general or this particular miracle, but I refer potential objectors to the following books which I believe are Biblically solid:

* "God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol" by Ken Gentry
* "Drinking With Calvin and Luther" by Jim West

I hope these comments are helpful. I realize this whole issue is controversial today, but in the light of Scripture and Church history, I believe it need not be. On that note, cheers!


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## Puritan Sailor (Sep 19, 2004)

[quote:9cfb6060a2="luvroftheWord"]The real miracle is the transubstantiation that takes place in Evangelical churches. The cracker and grape juice miraculously turns into bread and wine, even though the appearance doesn't change. [/quote:9cfb6060a2]

 

Just adding to more reasons for the new Reformation that must take place. :bs2:


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## SmokingFlax (Sep 20, 2004)

"...The cracker and grape juice miraculously turns into bread and wine..."

That's a good one!

I recently had a conversation about this issue with a friend of mine and how I had some real reservations about changing the sacrament (like how it is totally without scriptural warrant). 

His angle was how (we) "stronger brothers" should not put stumbling blocks before the weaker members of the congregation (like recovering alcoholics). On the surface (the extreme surface) it seems like a decent argument except that it makes God look totally incompetant by not foreseeing the plight of the alcoholic or that their were alcoholics back in biblical times too...and then it degenerated into absurdity when he said something like "I think it's ok to use milk and cookies for the sacraments...it just matters what's in the heart... blah, blah, blah." 

I don't recall saying much after that...I think the disgusted look on my face said it all.


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## SmokingFlax (Sep 20, 2004)

That was my first use of the barfing emoticon. I feel like a proud father.


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## andreas (Sep 20, 2004)

***Tonight I heard an excellent sermon about the miracle that Jesus did at the wedding feast in Cana. What a blessing it was to hear how it pictures, among other things, the abundant forgiveness that Jesus provides.*** 

The six containers were made of stone(lithinos) John 2:6,and we know from scripture that the stone is Christ,1 Corr.10:4.The water(ydwr)) was turned into wine(oinos),and again this symbolises the blood of Christ, Matt. 26:27-29,so the miracle symbolises the salvation of sinners with the blood of Christ, for without shedding of blood there is no remission.
andreas.


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## blhowes (Sep 20, 2004)

Thanks for your responses. 

It seems pretty unanimous so far that the wine was not just grape juice. It sort of makes sense since its a little hard to picture a wedding celebration where everybody's sitting around drinking grape juice. It just somehow seems out of place at such a festive occasion.

As I recall, the rationale for saying it was grape juice always started with the premise that drinking alcohol was sinful. Since Jesus was sinless and wouldn't contribute to somebody sinning, the wine must therefore have been grape juice. It seems logical, given the premise. Unfortunately (or furtunately), not all premises remain standing after being scrutinized by the scriptures. 

I really have no desire, per se, of drinking alcohol, but, if it turns out I'm convinced that its OK to drink it, I wonder if I'll be able to drink it without feeling guilty?


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## Philip A (Sep 20, 2004)

Bob,

You do know what the definition of a "Reformed" Baptist is don't you? He is a baptist who no longer feels guilty about drinking alcohol. :bs2:


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## blhowes (Sep 20, 2004)

[quote:37d75e8ac5="Philip A"]Bob,
You do know what the definition of a "Reformed" Baptist is don't you? He is a baptist who no longer feels guilty about drinking alcohol. :bs2:[/quote:37d75e8ac5]
  I love it!


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## blhowes (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Philip A_
> Bob,
> 
> You do know what the definition of a "Reformed" Baptist is don't you? He is a baptist who no longer feels guilty about drinking alcohol. :bs2:



From time to time, I do surveys locally where they pay you to come down and taste stuff, etc. and fill out questionaires. Last time, they paid me $20 to taste and rate some chicken fingers. They typically call you ahead of time and ask you 2 or 3 questions to see if you fit the advertising company's criteria.

Yesterday, my wife told me they had called, so I called them back. This survey was going to pay me $35, but they didn't say for what. When I called them, they asked me, "Do you drink beer?", to which I replied, "No", to which they said, "Ok, thank-you" and hung up.

$35 !!! for sitting there having a few beers. 

What I want to know is ...  Will I ever be a reformed baptist...or a reformed anything?

[kidding]
Before I hung up, I told the lady I knew of some people who wouldn't mind (and could do it with a clear conscience) evaluating a few brews and getting paid for it...any takers?
[/kidding]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 19, 2004)

Getting paid to taste beer...now that's cool! I live in the midst of Virginia vineyard country and enjoy partaking of the occasional wine-tasting opportunity - but I've never gotten paid for it!


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Dec 25, 2004)

You know, I think it is safe to say that the Bible means what it says and says what it means. Also, If the Saviour was only pumping out some high quality juice in the midst of such merry-making, the crowd wouldn't have been so enthusiastic about it as they were with His brew...


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## Preach (Dec 25, 2004)

What are the implications of Christ's instituting wine at the Last Supper? I specifically have in mind the Lord's Table. Should elders administer both juice and wine, or what? Moreover, for those of you who argue that the regulative principle demands only wine being administered (ie. Greg Bahnsen strongly implied that was his position), what would that mean for those kids who are under the age of 18 (doesn't the law prohibit minors drinking any alcohol?). Any thoughts?


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## turmeric (Dec 25, 2004)

Not in a private setting w/their folks, usually. But is church a private setting and what if their folks are absent?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Preach_
> What are the implications of Christ's instituting wine at the Last Supper? I specifically have in mind the Lord's Table. Should elders administer both juice and wine, or what? Moreover, for those of you who argue that the regulative principle demands only wine being administered (ie. Greg Bahnsen strongly implied that was his position), what would that mean for those kids who are under the age of 18 (doesn't the law prohibit minors drinking any alcohol?). Any thoughts?



I agree that the Regulative Principle of Worship necessitates that wine only -- and not some non-alcoholic substitute (a la Protestant Transubstantantiation -- be used in the Lord's Supper.

US law does not prohibit the administration of sacramental wine, even to minors, in church services unless it is done, for example, on school property where 'zero tolerance' policies toward alcohol exist (my former church meets in a school building and I was a deacon who dealt with this issue, which is why I speak from experience on that matter).


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## Bryan (Dec 25, 2004)

"The cracker and grape juice miraculously turns into bread and wine, even though the appearance doesn't change."

Evansubstantiation sounds like a good word for this.


Bryan
SDG


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Preach_
> What are the implications of Christ's instituting wine at the Last Supper? I specifically have in mind the Lord's Table. Should elders administer both juice and wine, or what? Moreover, for those of you who argue that the regulative principle demands only wine being administered (ie. Greg Bahnsen strongly implied that was his position), what would that mean for those kids who are under the age of 18 (doesn't the law prohibit minors drinking any alcohol?). Any thoughts?



Can you point me to Bahnsen's writings on this subject?


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## Preach (Dec 28, 2004)

Andrew, I think I remember his comments on this subject as he was expositing Calvin's theology. Bahnsen set forth a seven volume (I think approx. 80 tapes) on Calvin's reformation theology. Somewhere in the mix (I know that doesnt help much-ha ha) he made the comment.


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## Ex Nihilo (Dec 29, 2004)

> Not in a private setting w/their folks, usually. But is church a private setting and what if their folks are absent?



I know in Louisiana (and probably in most states) it is perfectly legal for minors (of any age) to consume alcohol _within a religious service._ They are allowed to have up to a certain level of alcohol in their blood because of this, I believe (a rather low level). Just imagine the outrage from Roman Catholics (and others) if this wasn't allowed.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 5, 2005)

Grape juice didn't exist until Welch's ...



> *The modern-day fruit juice industry actually got its start in 1869 in the Vineland, N.J., home of Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, where he and his son Charles processed the first bottles of "unfermented wine" for use with the communion service at their church.*


Welch's: Company History


Anyone who says otherwise is a backwoods fundamentalist and in error. 

If the Son of God can be referred to as a "drunkard" and have a glass of wine (or worse, provide a lot of wine for a large party!) - and be sinless and perfect - then I can have a glass too. Amen? Amen.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Anyone who says otherwise is a backwoods fundamentalist and in error.



excuse me, I may be the exception to the rule...I was a backwoods fundamentalist...wouldn't touch alchohol till several years after marriage...but I NEVER bought the idea that it was grape juice. #1 we weren't taught that it was grape juice, we were taught that it just wasn't a "strong" wine (liquor vs hard liquor idea). #2 history says otherswise either way...it was wine and the GOOD stuff at that (fermented long and well). But I avoided it for appearances sakes, alchoholism in the family, etc. 

however I like my White Ziffendale and an occasional Caberet...don't tell the fundies on me!






[Edited on 5-2-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, I came from such backgrounds and an SBC church that taught us it WAS grape juice!


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 5, 2005)

awww...I'm sorry. :bigsmile: should have paid more attention in history class then!


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## future expatriate (Feb 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bryan_
> "The cracker and grape juice miraculously turns into bread and wine, even though the appearance doesn't change."


The most disheartening story that I have heard along those lines was, when a [backwoods fundamentalist] Baptist minister, "blessing" the elements, said, "...and Lord, just as you took the bread and *grape juice* then, we take it now..."

I've heard several ministers try to make "wine" mean "grape juice," but never outright deny the use of the word "wine."


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 6, 2005)

Why couldn't Christ have used Guinness?


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