# Pentecostalism Unifying?



## Clay7926 (Apr 24, 2009)

A number of Christian news sources report that there are talks scheduled between Oneness Pentecostals and Trinitarian Pentecostals to discuss unity and coming together. Oneness Pentecostals and Trinitarian Pentecostals first split in 1916 over the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Azuza Anniversary celebration back in 2006 led to the early rumblings of such talks. 

So, the question I have is this: should the AG and the UPCI, the two main groups on either side of Pentecostalism, decide either to merge or to begin to work together, what does that say about the Pentecostal movement as a whole?


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## Josiah (Apr 24, 2009)

Has the UP given up their Anti-Trinitarianism, or is it too early to tell?


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 24, 2009)

Do you have any of these articles?


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## LawrenceU (Apr 24, 2009)

If they merge it would be a cat fight. Since the split they have evolved in two very different directions.


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## Clay7926 (Apr 24, 2009)

Center for Oneness Research and Education: Oneness-Trinitarian Pentecostal Dialogue

Tulsa World: Tulsa to host conference on Pentecostalism

Commission on Holy Spirit Empowerment in the 21st Century Begins Conversations - Christian Newswire

Thoughts?


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, I don't think we can tell for sure where the AG stands by these articles, but the author from the first one came away from the discussions with an interesting perspective. It looks like there was some compromise from the Trinitarians, but we'd have to see their reports. It does sound like there is a willingness to band together over a common mystical experience, which they call The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, instead of the sure revelation of God found in the Scriptures.



> The Trinitarian team affirms that the words “nature” and “person,” while helpful, are fallible attempts to understand the unity and relational life of the Godhead.





> Since the purpose of baptism has been a point of disagreement, it is encouraging from the Oneness view to see that the Trinitarian team affirmed that the relationship between baptism and salvation “requires further study and discussion among Trinitarian Pentecostals” especially “in light of specific passages which appear to make a direct link between baptism and salvation . . . .” As it relates to the meaning of baptism, the Oneness team affirmed that the “complete experience of forgiveness/remission of sins comes through repentance and water baptism together.





> The Final Report points out that “the language of ‘persons’ is not sacred in Trinitarian theology.” Although there are no doubt many Trinitarian theologians who would disagree with this statement, it may provide a way forward in ongoing discussions.


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## Scott1 (Apr 24, 2009)

It would be wonderful if the 'Oneness' repents officially of their heretical view of the Trinity.

Much harm has been done to people in their midst by this, and the representation of our God.

Repentance requires confessing, forsaking and making restitution/reconciliation and the consequences of the sin can take a long time to work through.

One of the first acts of restitution would be a written summary of doctrine that would be systematically taught and would function as as a basis of unity and accountability for its members.


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## Jon 316 (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm just glad I've left the pentecostal moevement.


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## Josiah (Apr 24, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> I'm just glad I've left the pentecostal moevement.





My old AG church I grew up in had enough issues w/o having to deal with talks of re-unifying with the patently anti-trinitarian UPC.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Apr 24, 2009)

Could it be that they are just so lax in their theology that they might actually be able to work together? Here in my city we have a reasonably charismatic (not too much) Baptist church that does everything with a nearby super Pentecostal Apostolic church. They share resources etc... many of their young leaders move between them, and their youth groups are semi-merged.

How does it work? No one cares about theology or puts much thought into it.


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## reformedminister (Apr 25, 2009)

I spent five years in the Oneness Movement. It nearly ruined my life with their heretical teachings and invasive tendencies. Ironically, one of the last sermons I preached in that group had to do with plural eldership. To say the least, I got scolded by my pastor.


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## LawrenceU (Apr 25, 2009)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Could it be that they are just so lax in their theology that they might actually be able to work together? Here in my city we have a reasonably charismatic (not too much) Baptist church that does everything with a nearby super Pentecostal Apostolic church. They share resources etc... many of their young leaders move between them, and their youth groups are semi-merged.
> 
> How does it work? No one cares about theology or puts much thought into it.



Actually, that is more what I think on the 'theological' perspective. The catfight that I was talking about would be over style, life style expectations, ministry approach, etc.


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## ExGentibus (Apr 25, 2009)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Could it be that they are just so lax in their theology that they might actually be able to work together?


I too suspect something like this: Perhaps they regard the baptism in the Holy Spirit as one of the essentials of faith, and the Trinity a minor, intellectual issue.


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Apr 25, 2009)

As far as I know, modalism is one of the lesser problems of the Oneness bodies (not that it's minor, mind you). Don't they believe 
1) ALL true believers speak in tongues, and "if you don't, you ain't"?
2) Baptismal regeneration of some type?
3) Baptism in the name of Jesus alone, rather than Father-Son-Holy Spirit
They also have a BIG legalistic streak, the ones I have know. This does not bode well for the AOG leadership as I see.


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## Pergamum (Apr 25, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> I spent five years in the Oneness Movement. It nearly ruined my life with their heretical teachings and invasive tendencies. Ironically, one of the last sermons I preached in that group had to do with plural eldership. To say the least, I got scolded by my pastor.



I am curious about these invasive tendencies.


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## reformedminister (Apr 25, 2009)

The invasive tendencies are not uncommon in Pentecostal circles, as well as cults. Basically, the pastor tries to control your life. It is the extreme case of the abuse of elderships, but with one man.


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## LawrenceU (Apr 25, 2009)

PointyHaired Calvinist said:


> As far as I know, modalism is one of the lesser problems of the Oneness bodies (not that it's minor, mind you). Don't they believe
> 1) ALL true believers speak in tongues, and "if you don't, you ain't"?
> 2) Baptismal regeneration of some type?
> 3) Baptism in the name of Jesus alone, rather than Father-Son-Holy Spirit
> They also have a BIG legalistic streak, the ones I have know. This does not bode well for the AOG leadership as I see.



You are spot on. That legalism streak is one of the things that will cause the cat fight. The AG is getting less legalistic / antinomian as the time goes by.



> I too suspect something like this: Perhaps they regard the baptism in the Holy Spirit as one of the essentials of faith, and the Trinity a minor, intellectual issue.



When I was pastoring in the AG (For those of you that don't know I was a Reformed Baptist pastor in an AG congregation for about a little over five years. LONG story.) the continual drumbeat from Springfield was that we 'must return to our Pentecostal distinctive'. What is that distinctive according the General Superintendent Trask? 'The Baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues. And, that it is available and should be the goal of every Christian.' 

In sectional meetings and district meetings I would consistently argue that the distinctive of Christianity must be the Glory of God, the Cross of Christ, and his Saving Grace. That was met with agreement by some, but glares by others. Needles to say, I was not a popular man!


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## Clay7926 (Apr 25, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> *I was a Reformed Baptist pastor in an AG congregation for about a little over five years. LONG story.)*



I would LOVE to hear that story! 

I do want to mention is that some of the legalistic tendencies of the Oneness end of the Pentecostal movement have been slowly breaking over the years, specifically when it comes to dress. There have been a number of pastors that left the UPCI in the 1980's and the 1990's due to the 'holiness standards' not being scriptural. Bernie Gillespie did an article about this trend on his website. 

The main thing that led me to leaving the Oneness movement was my conviction of the doctrine the Trinity. The gentleman who came up with the Oneness doctrine studied it for one year before he began to officially teach it to others. Once I learned that, and compared one year of study with the hundreds of years that the early church fathers have prayed and studied scripture and dealt with the early heretics, I have to go with the majority on this one. The early church fathers picked specific words (Persons) for a specific reason. 

If anything, I'm curious to see how things will turn out.


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