# The Doctrine of Election and Foreknowledge



## Bandguy (Apr 27, 2007)

From the point of view of those who reject predestination and say that God only chooses based on the fact that he foreknew that they would be willing to accept, what was it within these humans that God foreknew that made them willing to accept Jesus that the other humans did not have? And doesn't this, in reality, create a sort of elitist, better than thou self-righteousness?


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## KMK (Apr 27, 2007)

Bandguy said:


> And doesn't this, in reality, create a sort of elitist, better than thou self-righteousness?



Absolutely. One could boast that they were, better, or smarter, or more humble etc.


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## Civbert (Apr 27, 2007)

KMK said:


> Absolutely. One could boast that they were, better, or smarter, or more humble etc.


 Ironically, the Arminians say that predestination tends to make Calvinist think they are somehow better. It's one of their favorite arguments against election - because it will make us smug since we were chosen and other people were dismissed.


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## Anton Bruckner (Apr 28, 2007)

KMK said:


> Absolutely. One could boast that they were, more humble etc.


how does one do the above 

ps. I fully agree with you. This is the problem that arminians usually get into.


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## KMK (Apr 28, 2007)

Civbert said:


> Ironically, the Arminians say that predestination tends to make Calvinist think they are somehow better. It's one of their favorite arguments against election - because it will make us smug since we were chosen and other people were dismissed.



I know. It is like a veil is over their face even to this day in the reading of Rom 9.


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## IanWatson (Apr 28, 2007)

KMK said:


> I know. It is like a veil is over their face even to this day in the reading of Rom 9.



I have brought up Romans 9 and many other scriptures which scream God's sovereignty in salvation and for some reason they just cant grasp it. I always wonder this. Its like they have some kind of mental block.


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## staythecourse (Apr 28, 2007)

*We have to stay humble*

Because we know we have been chosen, we have to stay humble. Knowledge puffs up.


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## Blue Tick (Apr 28, 2007)

Ariminians unfortunately have an over inflated view of their own ability to choose God. In essence they are self-righteous and base their salvation on their power to make a decision for God. It is the antithesis of the Gospel.


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## cih1355 (Apr 29, 2007)

What effect does election have if God is just choosing those whom He knew would choose Him? Arminian election isn't really election; It is just God persuading you and giving you the opportunity to receive Christ.


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## shelly (May 19, 2007)

IanWatson said:


> I have brought up Romans 9 and many other scriptures which scream God's sovereignty in salvation and for some reason they just cant grasp it. I always wonder this. Its like they have some kind of mental block.



It's called brainwashing. It's very effective.

shelly


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## Staphlobob (May 19, 2007)

KMK said:


> I know. It is like a veil is over their face even to this day in the reading of Rom 9.




I'm presently reading Dallmore's biography of George Whitfield. To round out Whitfield's personality and theology it's necessary for the author to delve rather deeply into the life and theology of Wesley, especially his rejection of predestination. 

Therein it's noted that one of the most powerful arguments Wesley had, and Weslians continue to have today, is the arguement that predestination can't be true because, if it were, then Satan would not be so anxious to grab sinners. Knowing there are those already predestined to salvation, as well as the reprobates, would render him useless. Yet Scripture clearly asserts that Satan, like a prowling lion is, indeed, actively seeking people to devour. 

As I read that it occurred to me that Satan is simply an Arminian who himself rejects predestination.


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## reformedman (May 19, 2007)

When you tell them that they cannot choose salvation because with regard to spiritual soteriological thought--they are dead in trespasses and sin, they come up with forknowledge.

And this is how they bring up the point about forknowledge. 
God chose them on account of knowing that they *would* choose him if they had a chance, this they say to prove that man still has not done anything for salvation, it was only a knowledge on God's part.
Therefore, it is not a works-salvation.

This is sort of a round-about mickeymouse, it doesn't work either because then, whether it be past, present, future, or potential future, it still depends on man. 
So although they think they are getting away with not having done anything for salvation, they really haven't solved their works for salvation problem fully.
It all amounts to works-salvation and as the previous posts show, they are somehow better than others, they merit salvation in someway.


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## Calvibaptist (May 19, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> As I read that it occurred to me that Satan is simply an Arminian who himself rejects predestination.





Satan also thinks he is going to win in the end, even though the book of Revelation has already been written. I wouldn't base any theology on what Satan thinks and does.


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## BJClark (May 19, 2007)

Bandguy;



> From the point of view of those who reject predestination and say that God only chooses based on the fact that he foreknew that they would be willing to accept, what was it within these humans that God foreknew that made them willing to accept Jesus that the other humans did not have? And doesn't this, in reality, create a sort of elitist, better than thou self-righteousness?



Yes, people could begin to feel elitist or 'better than thou', until they really stop and think...God with everything HE knew...didn't HAVE to choose anyone at all, not even us.

He could have very well said (literally) "TO HELL WITH ALL OF YOU!!" 

But in HIS grace and Mercy He didn't...He choose to save some...and in that He choose to save me..
certainly doesn't cause me to boast with pride..it takes me to my knees in tearful praise and Thanksgiving.


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## eternallifeinchrist (May 20, 2007)

Yes, I agree Bobbi. Scary...to think of going to hell. Awesome to think that God just picked me and saved me from hell. Hallelujah, what a Savior.


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## Tirian (May 20, 2007)

This could been seen as a problem with accepting Christ's Lorship over ones life. The need to retain ownership of the "choice" seems to indicate an unwillingness to accept the total Lordship of Christ over every part of their lives. It seems like trying to prescribe to God which parts of our lives, and in what manner He can be Lord.

I know what it's like to argue like this for I once did so. My walk with the Lord remained shallow and unfulfilling until I recognised His total Lordship over every part of my life - a process of letting go, losing control in order to trust only in Him.


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