# Cosmetic Surgery and the Christian



## Christopher (May 24, 2004)

What dio you think. Should christians engage in cosmetic surgey and other medical procedures to change their appearance (nose jobs, hair transplnts, laser hair removal, inlagrements of features, lipo, etc.). Is it sheer vanity? Should the money be used more wisely. What are your thoughts. 

I am not reffering to those who need it due to an accedent where they are burned or mared.


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

Wow. I'm the first person responding. Fools rush in...

First of all, no offense Christopher, but you're such a GUY! Laser hair removal doesn't belong in the same category as nose jobs and liposuction, unless you really like women with armpit hair...Hair removal is major issue for us gals, and if I had the money to get my pits and legs lasered, I'd do it in a heartbeat! Talk about a timesaver! Let's face it, I am NEVER going to want hair in either place...so as it is, I spend a considerable amount of time fighting the evil follicles...Additionally, I had Lasik a few years ago, and I am so pleased with the difference! I love having 20/20 vision again.

As far as the rest of it goes, yes, I think that is vain, and I am hopefully a strong enough Christian to resist society's fervent belief that I need to look like Barbie. Have you noticed that the women on The Swan kind of look like cookie cutters? Where's the personality? You know, the most attractive people (male or female) aren't the ones who look like models, they are the ones whose personalities shine through. Quirky is very attractive. But there's no room for quirky in the new regime. Which is our loss.

Boy, I'll bet you're sorry you asked, because I can think of about 47 more things I want to say...but let me try to restrict it. There's always the person who says, well , you wear makeup; you use moisturizer... Yes, I do use creams &amp; stuff - time may be marching across my face, but that doesn't mean I can't fight back. And I wear makeup. Hopefully not Christina Aguilera makeup; just 3 coats! (Haha.) Is that vanity? Sure. But as Natalie Wood (and more recently Adam Sandler) sang..when I wear makeup...&quot;I feel pretty, oh so pretty...&quot;

Also, has anyone noticed how scary people who have had too much &quot;work&quot; done look? (And I'm not just talking about Michael Jackson.) I saw Mary Tyler Moore on the Dick Van Dyke Reunion the other day. Whoa. She was a gorgeous woman. Now she's creepy looking. Now, Rose Marie is creepy looking in a whole other way...but MTM somewhere crossed a line, and doesn't look human any more.

OK, I think I have put in more than my 2 cents. Someone else's turn on the soapbox...

Mary :blah1:


----------



## kceaster (May 24, 2004)

*Mary...*

You're not alone. I would do my beardline in heartbeat as well. I would never have to shave, but just clip my beard every once in a while.

Anyone know how much this costs?

All the rest of the stuff is vanity.

KC


----------



## FrozenChosen (May 24, 2004)

I imagine I could go for some laser facial hair surgery or whatever.

Would I be a bad steward of my money? Probably not, because the alternative is Mach 3, and that's expensive junk!:bs2:


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 24, 2004)

I wouldn't mind getting my back done one time we lost the remote in there and it took two weeks to find it. Those were bad days.


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

Christopher, SEE! I TOLD you body hair was a major issue!!!!

Ken &amp; FC, just go for the ZZ Top look. Worked for them.

Irish, are YOU Bigfoot? Wow. Where's my camera when I need it? This is JUST LIKE the time I saw Elvis in Kalamazoo...

Life would be so much better if Laser Hair Removal was available for the masses.

Blade, THIS could be your platform! Forget tax cuts! Subsidized LHR!!! I'd vote Blade 2004 if I could get my legs done!

Mary


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 24, 2004)

When you say masses are you referring to my back? My wife always tells me that I would stay a lot cooler if I would not wear that sweater under my shirt.


----------



## panicbird (May 24, 2004)

[quote:01c1afce5e][i:01c1afce5e]Originally posted by Irishcat922[/i:01c1afce5e]
I wouldn't mind getting my back done one time we lost the remote in there and it took two weeks to find it. Those were bad days. [/quote:01c1afce5e]

This made me laugh hard for two reasons. One, it is just a funny thought. Two, I fear that my back is becoming the hairy beast as well. 

Lon


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

Irish, Hahaha. No, I wish I could say that I was that &quot;punny.&quot; When I make puns it's almost always accidental. I'm funny in a completely unintentional way. Plus funny-looking, which helps my comedy career (but not on the PB, since you can't see me).

I'm pretty amazed by the number of fellas on the Board who want the laser hair treatment...of course, getting rid of back hair could be construed as a public service. Although, personally, I'm not nearly as bothered by hair on other people as I am on myself. 

C'mon People! Let's hear from you! Poor Christopher, he was trying to get our opinions on plastic surgery, not our &quot;laser wish lists.&quot; I'll go a little further on the limb (where I am sitting all alone right now). I am more than a little disturbed by many of the women I see today - I work in a highrise, so I see lots of women during the week - they all have the same streaks in their hair, the same clothes, the same makeup, and more and more of them look almost anorexic. They really are cookie cutters. No individuality at all. They are completely interchangeable. It's quite frightening. When I am out shopping and I see a &quot;normal&quot; woman, I find myself smiling at her and (sometimes) striking up a conversation with her (am I turning into my mom?) just out of relief that I'm not the only one. Am I the only one creeped out by this trend?

BTW, Ladies, anyone else remember the old Clairol commericals (only her hairdresser knows for sure)? Not so long ago, getting your hair colored meant you were &quot;questionable.&quot; Now I have total strangers tell me that I would be prettier if I colored my hair. No one ever said that to Jackie O. Why does everyone have to be a (fake) blonde? Where's the variety?! (rant)

Mary (still smiling)


----------



## Gregg (May 24, 2004)

This young fellow would like to have surgery to remove the question mark that is looming over his head daily.


uzzled:


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:894ed704b3][i:894ed704b3]Originally posted by joshua[/i:894ed704b3]
[quote:894ed704b3][i:894ed704b3]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:894ed704b3]
is it o.k. if I get calf implants? [/quote:894ed704b3]

As long as they look like baby cows... [/quote:894ed704b3]



Somehow, I think calf implants count under the &quot;vain&quot; category...

Mary :bs2:


----------



## Preach (May 24, 2004)

Is the Bible sufficient in precept (command), pattern (illustrations/examples), and principles (those that we use to draw conclusions)? I am reading a lot of &quot;I think this&quot;, and &quot;I would do that&quot;, which is fine, as long as it is contextualized within a Christian worldview/framework. So, how about it, anyone want to try to justify their positions one way or the other? The reason I set this forth is it seemed like some of the previous posts were at the top of a slippery slope. Why do you get to do what you want to do, but say anything beyond that is not justified? See what I mean?


----------



## twogunfighter (May 24, 2004)

I think that if you've got the cash and want a new tummy or set of somethings then by all means get them. If I had an extra $100K laying around, would any of you guys say that I couldn't buy a new Porsche or Hummer or whatever? Why doesn't a new nose fall under the same category, that's only blowing what, ten grand? 

My dva rublei.


----------



## Augusta (May 24, 2004)

You look fine. I can't see anything...  ...wait a minute..gasp


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:b07a05e24d][i:b07a05e24d]Originally posted by Preach[/i:b07a05e24d]
Is the Bible sufficient in precept (command), pattern (illustrations/examples), and principles (those that we use to draw conclusions)? I am reading a lot of &quot;I think this&quot;, and &quot;I would do that&quot;, which is fine, as long as it is contextualized within a Christian worldview/framework. So, how about it, anyone want to try to justify their positions one way or the other? The reason I set this forth is it seemed like some of the previous posts were at the top of a slippery slope. Why do you get to do what you want to do, but say anything beyond that is not justified? See what I mean? [/quote:b07a05e24d]

I can never do that! I know it's in there somewhere, but I can never find it when I'm looking for ir, and the concordance never helps me. Of course, I still can't find anything in the Yellow Pages, either...

How about &quot;The hairs of your head are numbered&quot; and &quot;Before you were formed in the womb, He knew you&quot;? That seems to indicate that God had a plan in mind when He created us. Can that be used to argue against plastic surgery? 

 oh no, how did I do this to myself? He'p! He'p!

Mary :bs2:


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:bc871eb3ba][i:bc871eb3ba]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:bc871eb3ba]
[quote:bc871eb3ba][i:bc871eb3ba]Originally posted by joshua[/i:bc871eb3ba]
[quote:bc871eb3ba][i:bc871eb3ba]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:bc871eb3ba]
is it o.k. if I get calf implants? [/quote:bc871eb3ba]

As long as they look like baby cows... [/quote:bc871eb3ba]

what about butt implants so I can look like J-lo? [/quote:bc871eb3ba]

Paul, you can do that, but only if you:

1. Use a new battery-powered Mach 3 to shave your lovely new calves.

2. Don a long honey-blonde wig.

3. The infamous green dress has to go away. Forever. Seriously.

Other than that, hey man, it's all about being who you want to be. Express yourself. Don't limit yourself...

Mary  (This is my &quot;ain't I a stinker&quot; smile)


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:53d17ade46][i:53d17ade46]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:53d17ade46]
thanks, now all I have to do is find a Ben Aflek or a P Diddy [/quote:53d17ade46]

I hear Ben Affleck is available, and being out there in Cali, you have a much better opportunity than the rest of us.

Have you ever seen Some Like it Hot? There is nothing new under the sun - seems to me Jack Lemmon already had that idea (with Joe E. Brown, no less).

Mary


----------



## Christopher (May 24, 2004)

I think Preach (by the way, wha does the V.D.M. after your name mean?) is right on some things and I would now like to add some of my comments. 

As for laser hair removal- Men, why? this would shout out vanity to me. Ladies, I know much time, money and energy is put into eleminating unwanted hair. am sure that if society had not made this a standard that it would not be an issue for you or for the men. This is the case in many counrties around the world. However, since it is the case that shaving legs and armpits are a concervitive norm. and since most girls have been doing it since a young age I am sure that as an adult it would be difficult to change this now since it does itch like crazy and lets face it, it looks better and is so much a partof being a female in Western Culture (the French are part of this Western Culture right? Haha). I am willing to go along with the idea of laser hair removal for ladies because it may be the more ecinomical solution for some over a life time of good razors and waxes and it would save some time . I wonder if one of you ladies could estimate how much time you spend shaving in a years time. 

Now back to other cosmetic surgery, If it is not for reconstructive or real health concerns I think it has problems. Many women and now men are claiming to be making these changes to help their self esteem. I can understand the world doing this but not the church. Our self worth is not based upon ourselves or what others think about us but is based upon the Price that Jesus paid for us, His very life. I believe that this cosmetic craze is based upon a man-centered view. If you have a God-centered view you would thank him that he even gave you a nose or whatever. Are you fat, exercise and eat right. Going bald or gray, so what, that is what God determined to happen to most men when they age! I have coined a new term here that gets to a lot of the problem. I would like to replace the word &quot;self-esteem' with &quot;sex-esteem&quot; because I think that that is one of the hidden reasons for some of the surgeries. Let us take breast-implants as an example (I hope I am not offening any here). What purpose does it serve. Surely it does not help in breast feeding. I can think of only one other reason for obtaining the implants, a sinfully sexualy driven society. I am sure I do not have to say more here. This is a open forum. 
Look to the Scriptures to see what a beautful man and woman look like, they look like Christ!
(Christopher quietly dimounts the soap box to alow for another to have their say)


----------



## alwaysreforming (May 24, 2004)

Wow, Mary, you're all over this topic! 

My take is this:
If a man or a woman has some glaring deficiency (ie: the man has no chin; or the woman is VERY masculine looking) then having some sort of correction so that you don't attract attention to yourself by your lack of this or that, or by your abundance of this or that, would seem to me to be ok.

If someone's nose is SO large that everybody comments on it, then perhaps they should be allowed to have it fixed.

If a woman has NO breasts so that she feels extremely unattractive, and very unfeminine, then we should have a bit of grace and let her feel a little better about herself.

But....
If you are getting older and you want a facelift so you dont have any wrinkles, well that's just vanity (look at Joyce Meyers!)

I agree with Christopher (and others) that we need to reconcile our desires to &quot;fix ourselves up&quot; with our Christian worldview. Is it really all about &quot;sex appeal?&quot; If so, then that is extremely worldly, and just plain wrong.

We also need to temper our desire to fix ourselves up with the realization that there are many in greater need than ourselves. Like Webmaster (matt) was saying, they can live off $20/mo. down in Peru and yet multitudes are in extreme poverty.

If we don't have enough to share with others, especially our brothers and sisters, then prioritizing that money to go to our &quot;looks&quot; seems very selfish.


----------



## dswatts (May 24, 2004)

What?! I can't have a tummy tuck when I lose the weight I'm trying so desparately to lose?!?!



Grace,
Dwayne


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

Christopher,

Excellent response. Well thought out.

All the talk these days about self-esteem has to make you wonder. Our grandparents knew their worth. Why do we not? Women especially seem to have this problem. And I think THAT is what I react to when I see these cookie cutter women at work. Why are they afraid to be themselves? We have been reduced (at our own hands, largely) to playthings, rather than daughters of the One True God. I think that's the root problem. When you don't have a firm foundation, you will sway in the breeze like a leaf. And listen, when THAT lingerie show is on tv, or when I'm standing in line at the checkout, or waiting in the dentist's office reading women's magazines, I have to really focus on my worth, because it is very VERY easy for me to look in the mirror and come up wanting...I can pick myself apart with the best of them. I'm good at it. Actually, I don't give myself enough credit. I'm great at it. I see flaws that NOONE else sees. I recognize the truth: in our society, attractiveness is a competition, and it's serious business. I watch women size each other up. Well, she has a nice figure, but her nose is HUGE! That's why I loved the movie Shallow Hal. Because it really is the way we need to view each other. Man looks at outward appearances, but the Lord looks at the heart.

You didn't quote any Scriptures to support or defend your stand, as Preach requested. Let me guess, I did SUCH an amazing job that noone even wants to try to out-Scripture me!

Mary 
:bs2:


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:91906afbe4][i:91906afbe4]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:91906afbe4]
 What?! I can't have a tummy tuck when I lose the weight I'm trying so desparately to lose?!?!



Grace,
Dwayne [/quote:91906afbe4]

Sure. I have a staple gun. C'mon over! I do face lifts too...

Mary


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

[quote:caf3d849bc][i:caf3d849bc]Originally posted by alwaysreforming[/i:caf3d849bc]
Wow, Mary, you're all over this topic! 

My take is this:
If a man or a woman has some glaring deficiency (ie: the man has no chin; or the woman is VERY masculine looking) then having some sort of correction so that you don't attract attention to yourself by your lack of this or that, or by your abundance of this or that, would seem to me to be ok.

If someone's nose is SO large that everybody comments on it, then perhaps they should be allowed to have it fixed.

If a woman has NO breasts so that she feels extremely unattractive, and very unfeminine, then we should have a bit of grace and let her feel a little better about herself.

But....
If you are getting older and you want a facelift so you dont have any wrinkles, well that's just vanity (look at Joyce Meyers!)

I agree with Christopher (and others) that we need to reconcile our desires to &quot;fix ourselves up&quot; with our Christian worldview. Is it really all about &quot;sex appeal?&quot; If so, then that is extremely worldly, and just plain wrong.

We also need to temper our desire to fix ourselves up with the realization that there are many in greater need than ourselves. Like Webmaster (matt) was saying, they can live off $20/mo. down in Peru and yet multitudes are in extreme poverty.

If we don't have enough to share with others, especially our brothers and sisters, then prioritizing that money to go to our &quot;looks&quot; seems very selfish. [/quote:caf3d849bc]

I try. Noone else would go to the mat on this.

And to answer your question, yes, it is all about sex appeal. (I mean, no it isn't, but in society, ABSOLUTELY.) Has anyone else read &quot;A Return to Modesty&quot;? The author makes so many wonderful points on so many topics that it's hard to recount them, but I absolutely must say that we women (collectively speaking) market and sell ourselves - and I'm not just talking about &quot;pros&quot; - the women on The Apprentice did the same thing. These were educated, intelligent women, who felt the need to wear really REALLY short skirts in order to compete for the job. If I had shown up in one of my skirts, they wouldn't have let me in the door. Joe Millionaire was (I'm very sorry to say) a birdseye view of the marriage market, from a woman's perspective. The &quot;better&quot; you look, the &quot;better&quot; a husband you win. It is absolutely a competition. And lots of men are swayed by appearance and don't realize until too late that they have chosen style over substance. (Because they don't know the Proverb &quot;Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised&quot; - Ha! I thought of another one, Preach!)

And it's not just The Apprentice. It's not just Joe Millionaire. Millions of people (men and women) are so desparate for love and affection they will do whatever they have to to get it. They don't realize that none of it will make them happy. Marilyn Monroe was adored by the world. It didn't make her happy...the Kennedys still had her killed. (j/k)

And let me ask you a serious question. Let's say that I have a feature I'm ashamed of, and I get that &quot;fixed&quot;. Then I meet a great guy, who falls in love with me. We get married. Am I ever going to be really confident that he loves ME? Would he have loved me before the surgery? I don't think having surgery to fix a flaw fixes anything. The issue is in the heart. If you're ugly to yourself, you can't fix that. Your mirror is broken and you need another one. God's mirror is perfect.

And we all know the real reason Paul Manata holds sway in the apologetics board is because of the calf implants!

Mary :bs2:


----------



## Mary (May 24, 2004)

Twogun,

What was that little signoff? Huh? 'Splain, please...

Mary


----------



## Christopher (May 24, 2004)

I think a lot of the reason women have this self-esteem problem because of men. They are not by nature initiators, but responders. I think men, in their lust have been the root of this problem. Not to say women are innocent. Women are trying to look like the women that men lust over and men try to make their woman into that idol. Lets face it, if lust was not a problem for men then women would not be wearing those &quot;half cloths&quot; they wear. Sinful man wants to look at a woman's flesh and sinful woman wants attention so she goes to sinfull means to obtain it when both should be looking to God for their source of satisfaction and fullfilment. 
(dismounting again)


----------



## twogunfighter (May 24, 2004)

Mary

&quot;My two rubles&quot; in Russian without a cyrillic alphabet. I guess that's something less than two cents, although I haven't looked at the exchange rate. 

Chuck


----------



## Christopher (May 24, 2004)

One final thing:

How many of you think you will be shaving in heaven and how many of you think you will have your nose jobs when you stnd before the Lord, and if you do, do you think it will matter, do you think it will make Him love you even more? Live for the One who loves you the most and live on this planet as you would where you in heaven.


----------



## pastorway (May 24, 2004)

I have enough Cherokee in me that I couldn't grow a beard if I wanted to! I do have a thin but COARSE beard that needs shaving at least once a day or else I look like I need a bath....but I don't have a hair problem!! 

I do agree with you Chris, that it seems often to be a matter of complete selfishness, or a matter of trying to live by the worlds standards of beauty.

God looks at the heart! If my heart is pleasing to Him, then what would I need to change??

Phillip


----------



## Mary (May 25, 2004)

[quote:796caecd26][i:796caecd26]Originally posted by twogunfighter[/i:796caecd26]
Mary

&quot;My two rubles&quot; in Russian without a cyrillic alphabet. I guess that's something less than two cents, although I haven't looked at the exchange rate. 

Chuck [/quote:796caecd26]

I see...and where did you learn Russian? That seems like a tough language to just &quot;pick up.&quot; 

Mary


----------



## twogunfighter (May 25, 2004)

Mary and others,

Let's not go off the deep end here. I will agree that some cosmetic surgery is potentially sinful. Scripture also does tell us that man looks on the outward appearance, while God looks upon the heart. However, that does not negate that man still looks on the outward appearance. We should not cater only to man but we ought to recognize man's opinions do affect us and there is a standard for beauty. Fat people are actually outwardly ugly, regardless their potential inward beauty. Swimsuit models are actually outwardly beautiful regardless their potential inward ugliness. While I agree that inward beauty should hold at least as much if not more weight than outward beauty, that is not really realistic in our fallen world. Also there is nothing inherently sinful with being beautiful (Sarah, Esther). Nor is there anything sinful with using beauty to attract men (Esther, Ruth). Nor is there anything wrong with men being attracted to beauty (Isaac/Rachel, Boaz/Ruth, Jacob/Rebekah). The problem is when vanity makes one go to sinful lengths to have what God tells us should be considered by the Christian as a low priority. I am not sure what that line is exactly but I know it when I see it. The make-up of Tammy Faye is equally as abominable as the plasticity of Cher. As long as our attempts to be beautiful are done with the right attitude, for women that could be to capture and hold the heart of a worthy man (see Ruth's approach), and within the realms moderation (there should be no Christian &quot;Melissa Melons&quot then the surgery could be ok. And yes, that $10K could have been spent on missions instead of a nose job but you could eat bologna and peanut butter every day and save money for missions too. Scripture says that we are to be good stewards of God's gifts; one of which is our bodies. So if one wants to have a procedure that is life and looks enhancing who are we to say no?

Chuck


----------



## twogunfighter (May 25, 2004)

Mary 

I learned in the Army. However they don't teach that good and as you can tell by world events, russian is not as necessary as when I was taught, so I have fallen out of practice over the last several years.

Also:

[quote:d38aad5d56]
And let me ask you a serious question. Let's say that I have a feature I'm ashamed of, and I get that &quot;fixed&quot;. Then I meet a great guy, who falls in love with me. We get married. Am I ever going to be really confident that he loves ME? Would he have loved me before the surgery?
[/quote:d38aad5d56] 

Whatever &quot;me&quot; that the guy falls for is the girl that he loves. He does not differentiate and somehow just fall for &quot;inside person.&quot; There is in my opinion no platonic division such that &quot;the real you&quot; is your character, spirit, soul or whatever. It is all one whole. Neither should be over-emphasized. If one is fat it is probably because one is lazy. If one is built like a runner it is in most cases because he runs alot which probably implies industriousness at least in that area. If you sin physically, you sin; if you sin mentally, you sin. If you are outwardly attractive and have the mental capacity of Anna Nicole Smith then, to me at least, you will be unattractive. On the other hand if you are great theologian and look like Ellen Degeneres then I will find you equally unattractive. 

One other thing, what if a hypothetical woman did not get that unsightly blemish fixed and met a guy who really loved everything about her but her nose for instance. Would she really want that guy thinking &quot;well, even though I really like her as person and she is really smart and would make a great mom etc; I am just going to close my eyes when we kiss because I can't stand that heinous nose?&quot; 

Chuck


----------



## Mary (May 25, 2004)

[quote:c1e624fb09][i:c1e624fb09]Originally posted by Christopher[/i:c1e624fb09]
I think a lot of the reason women have this self-esteem problem because of men. They are not by nature initiators, but responders. I think men, in their lust have been the root of this problem. Not to say women are innocent. Women are trying to look like the women that men lust over and men try to make their woman into that idol. Lets face it, if lust was not a problem for men then women would not be wearing those &quot;half cloths&quot; they wear. Sinful man wants to look at a woman's flesh and sinful woman wants attention so she goes to sinfull means to obtain it when both should be looking to God for their source of satisfaction and fullfilment. 
(dismounting again) [/quote:c1e624fb09]

Well, yes... It is sort of a vicious cycle, isn't it? As women, though, we have a responsibility to dress and behave in a respectable way. I have an issue with the whole &quot;men are the evil oppressors of women, children and kittens&quot; thing...which I know is not what you're saying, but a lot of people do say it. Somebody once said that you can tell a lot about the quality of a society by the way that society treats its women and children. I think you can tell a lot about a society by the way its women behave. You either behave with dignity and a sense of self-worth, or you don't. When I watched the program on VH1 yesterday, they ran an ad for the next episode of some reality program, where the goal is to get a body like Beyonce. This girl had a total screaming meltdown, which they aired as the &quot;teaser&quot; for the episode. I was appalled for her. How desperate do you have to be; how little do you have to think of yourself, to allow yourself to be humiliated on national (international?) television? And I'm sorry, if I were a guy and I saw that girl on the show, there's no way I would ever ask her out - I'd expect another meltdown...

Which is a long way of saying I think you made a good point.

Mary :bs2:


----------



## Mary (May 25, 2004)

Twogun,

Wow. OK. You made lots of points, and I hope I can remember half of them. (My memory is a little iffy...)

You are absolutely right - there is nothing wrong with wanting to be beautiful to attract a mate, or just because you feel better about yourself. I said in one of my earliest posts (for some reason I seem to be the &quot;poster child&quot; for this post, and I don't know why!) that the reason I wear makeup is because I feel better about myself when I do. And yes, it's nice when a guy says, oh she's pretty, but you know what? Even if I'm not leaving the house, I still put on makeup. Even just to clean house! I feel put together, &quot;dressed,&quot; groomed, efficient, like I can take on the world, so those dust bunnies had better head for the hills! I have an old Betty Crocker that preaches the importance of putting on lipstick and a little perfume for the day (this is aimed at housewives) because you will feel better about yourself and I find it to be true. As a matter of fact, the right scent REALLY motivates me. Energy galore!

I am a little saddened when I see Christian frumps. To borrow the Army slogan (how fitting!) I think we should &quot;be all we can be&quot; and we are &quot;advertisements&quot; for God in a way. Don't take that in a worldly way...I'm not really doing a good job of explaining myself...but frumpy is very depressing. I try to present myself as attractive, clean &amp; neat, and modest without frumpiness. Hopefully I succeed. I want to present myself as belonging to Jesus, and HAPPY about it! After all, true self-worth comes from God. He is the only Source of inner joy and the Artist who creates outer beauty. 

Where I have a problem is when our society gets on these little tirades about a certain look. When I was a preteen/early teen, Christie Brinkley was &quot;it&quot;. Guess what? I don't look a thing like Christie Brinkley. And I felt ugly because of it. I have been told that I resemble Sela Ward (if you know who she is). She's practically the exact opposite of Christie Brinkley, and as much as I wanted to look like the girl next door, Gidget/Shirley Temple/Doris Day, I just DON'T. Credit my central European ancestry. I have now reached an age where I realize that not everyone has to look like Christie Brinkley, and how boring would it be if we all did! But that's what I see with these girls in the office building I'm in! They are interchangeable (in appearance). I think I'm attractive because I look like ME, not like a Christie Brinkley wannabe (or Britney Spears, today).

So, yes if there is something that is REALLY off, I think it's OK to fix it, but I think it's important to remember that really, if you're attractive, it's because you FEEL worthy, and you can be tremendously well put-together, and have all your &quot;flaws&quot; fixed, but if you don't feel pretty, and worthwhile, THAT is what you project to the world. You can be beautiful AND hollow. And maybe that is what we see when we look at Mary Tyler Moore, and Cher. They have no sense of themselves, and so look hollow and empty. 

But beauty is not intrinsically bad, and I think the Bible is full of Godly women who understood that beauty has an important place. Esther is a shining example of that, and being a big fan of creams and potions myself, I think I have a secret kinship with her. (The bottles multiply on their own, honest!) However, Jezebel also thought beauty was important, but her focus was not healthy. I guess the point is we should &quot;use our powers for good, and not evil.&quot;

It's a fine line, because on the one hand we have the frumpy and on the other hand we have the vain. I try to walk the middle path, but am fully aware that if I read too many women's magazines, I will start saving up for procedures. I'm not the best judge of my own level of attractiveness, but I think I'm OK. It's only when I read the magazines and watch the Style channel that I'm certain I resemble a pit bull who's lost a couple of fights!

I don't know what a Melissa Melons is, so I don't know what you're saying there...

Hope that kind of clarifies what I was trying to say...

Did I answer some of your comments?

Mary :bs2:


----------



## twogunfighter (May 25, 2004)

Chuck

[quote:5b5c37f449]
It's a fine line, because on the one hand we have the frumpy and on the other hand we have the vain. I try to walk the middle path,....
[/quote:5b5c37f449]

That seems to be exactly where we ought to be. 

As for Melissa, it is good that you are confused. It shows that you are less spotted by the world than I. 

Chuck


----------



## Mary (May 26, 2004)

Twogun wrote:
[quote:9407c90c49]
As for Melissa, it is good that you are confused. It shows that you are less spotted by the world than I. 
[/quote:9407c90c49]

 Oh. Well, duh. I guess the name should have clued me in. 

My Madeline Kahn impression: &quot;I am not a bimbo!&quot; 

(Just a little square.)


----------



## Augusta (May 26, 2004)

I agree with having something done to correct an obvious flaw or issue. We have no problems getting braces for crooked teeth or a bridge or crown to fill in a blank spot. Or lazik eye surgery to correct vision and throw out the glasses. I can see someone who had there nose broken before and having something done to correct damage done. I think that we can all agree that a boob job to correct a double mastectomy is different than getting one so that you can star in a p0rn film with huge breasts. There is a spectrum here and people will have to do there own inward thinking as to why they are having something done. It has more to do with the intentions I think than the actual procedure.


----------



## Christopher (May 26, 2004)

Agreed.


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 26, 2004)

What about toe hair? can they Lazer that off? Just curious.


----------



## Gregg (May 26, 2004)

The toe hair removal specialist at your service sir...


----------



## Augusta (May 27, 2004)

I hear duct tape works like a charm.


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 27, 2004)

If you can't afford to Lazer it duct it!:bs2:


----------



## Gregg (May 27, 2004)

And after you're done with the duct tape, you can save it for one of those home improvement projects that might come up.


----------



## Mary (May 28, 2004)

[quote:6aca1a1659][i:6aca1a1659]Originally posted by Irishcat922[/i:6aca1a1659]
What about toe hair? can they Lazer that off? Just curious. [/quote:6aca1a1659]

Irish, if your back is as hairy as you claim, having baby smooth toes is just going to look WEIRD. If you're as hairy as Lon Chaney Jr. (the Wolfman, for all you youngsters out there), I say embrace it, go with it, and for heaven's sake clean the drain when you get out of the shower, so your wife doesn't kill you!!!

:wr50:

Mary


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 28, 2004)

I have had the nicknames of sasquatch and chewbacca at different times in my life. That was when I used to have really long hair.


----------



## Mary (May 28, 2004)

[quote:33d8147b85][i:33d8147b85]Originally posted by Irishcat922[/i:33d8147b85]
I have had the nicknames of sasquatch and chewbacca at different times in my life. That was when I used to have really long hair. [/quote:33d8147b85]

SASQUATCH!!! That's the name I couldn't remember this morning!!! All I kept coming up with was Yeti, and I knew that wasn't right...The Lon Chaney/Wolfman thing was a compromise on my part. I knew there was a better name, and there's even a Trixie Belden mystery based around the legend of the Sasquatch (it turned out to be a Scooby-Doo-esque attempt to scare people away; what a copout)...

Some days I really worry about my future. If I'm this bad NOW, what in the world am I going to be like when I'm actually OLD?

Mary


----------

