# Semper Reformanda or Always Finding Something "Wrong"



## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

Check my church history below to give you a little background.

One thing I've noticed since becoming reformed is people get into smaller and smaller groups of like-minded people. Eventually they get into even smaller and smaller groups.

Most of these groups seem to draw arbitrary lines about who's in and who's not or who's a heretic. Then in the name of "Semper Reformanda" breakaway from them and say they - their old church body - are going apostate.

Next thing you know you have a denomination of one pastor, 2 elders, and 3 churches. I'm not sure that's a general assembly.

There are a lot of convictions I have that my current PCA church does not have. The longer I've been there the more I've run into issues. Not with the elders or people in the church - they've always been gracious. But there are views they hold to, that I do not that has caused me to withdraw my family more and more to protect them.

Example: Psalm singing

We do sing from the Psalter, but we also (mainly) sing hymns with instruments.

I came to the denomination without the conviction and now that I have it and continue to research it it presses on me more and more. On top of that how can I raise my family in the faith saying this is wrong, but let's do it anyway?

The alternative of never-ending splitting doesn't seem like what God had in mind, but I'm also part of the mega-church mindset that is everywhere. Then again, all those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. In a culture like the one most of the church is ok with or part of, why would I expect these off-shoot denominations to be big.

Just seems like they would all get together to make a greater impact. Instead it looks like disloyal city.

/rant

Thoughts please?


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

No comments on this?


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## AThornquist (Mar 28, 2013)

I've heard a number of people express the substance of your post in one venue or another. I'm glad that hasn't been my experience, but it may be that certain beliefs in particular allow me to have a larger group of like-minded people; e.g., I do not hold to EP.


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## Christopher88 (Mar 28, 2013)

Nick,
Are you aiming your thread at EP or at the reformed body with the acceptance level of the non reformed?


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm not sure what you are asking (or just bemoaning an obvious problem)? If you come to certain convictions, say exclusive psalmody, you can't avoid dealing with 1. the disadvantages of staying where that is not practiced (but where you may also have opportunity to affect some change like more psalm singing), or 2. find a place where you can enjoy that conviction without the attending burdens of how to raise your family, temptation to sin against conscience, etc. (but settling for a far smaller local body if that is even available to you). I agree we are far too divided; but the RPCNA for instance is not a splinter group; they are one of the oldest Presbyterian denominations in this country. One might as well ask, why didn't the OPC, PCA, EPC, etc. join the RPs instead of forming separate bodies? As far as the tinier groups, the division seems to never stop, but it is not as if most in that situation don't realize that pitfall and work to avoid it. As far as the existence of all the groups, it is very hard to allow the OPC et al freedom and latitude to form a separate body, and not the smaller groups as well. I don't know the answer; for Presbyterians it would be nice to think all the denominations would simply agree to add a national general assembly to which they would be accountable; but I don't see that happening in this climate. There is bound to be more division ahead like for the PCA. It's a sorry state of things.


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback. There is an RPCNA plant in the Dallas area that is trying to take off, so I am curious about it. Just seems like the division never stops. Really wanting to see more unity (biblical, not just to make man happy), but convictions are pretty strong amongst people.

I know this isn't only an issue in the Presbyterian world. The Baptist have their pseudo-presbyteries like Acts 29, SBC, gospel coalition, etc. that they split from or to.

I would think there would be more unity that didn't lead to compromise. That is such a slippery slope.


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## JoannaV (Mar 28, 2013)

I've thought about various aspects of this issue before. And all I can really do is set *my own* actions in a certain direction.
- Moving from one church to another is not actively dividing the body further. But my family starting our own little church would be. Of course there are times when new church plants are needed. But that's not what we're talking about here.
- As much as possible I am to assemble with other Christians. One aspect of this might be fellowshipping with those I don't worship with on Sundays. Most of the time Baptists and Presbyterians are not members of each others' churches, but on the PB we can party all night long! (Not sure why that sentence ended that way haha, but you know what I mean!)
- I will not live in fear. I will love the brethren, love God, obey God's commands. And not fear the consequences. I know some people worry that EPers will "cause trouble". But I don't think not participating in hymn singing is causing trouble. If other people cause trouble due to someone's non-participation then you deal with that as it arises. Does that make sense? I've had to realise that I cannot compute all the different possible things that could occur in the future in a church, I can only obey God in the moment.


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

Thank you for the response. It really does help. Also, just to clarify, while I am coming to disagreements, I do not think those with which I have disagreements are not Christians.


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## JML (Mar 28, 2013)

nick said:


> Thanks for the feedback. There is an RPCNA plant in the Dallas area that is trying to take off, so I am curious about it. Just seems like the division never stops. Really wanting to see more unity (biblical, not just to make man happy), but convictions are pretty strong amongst people.
> 
> I know this isn't only an issue in the Presbyterian world. The Baptist have their pseudo-presbyteries like Acts 29, SBC, gospel coalition, etc. that they split from or to.
> 
> I would think there would be more unity that didn't lead to compromise. That is such a slippery slope.



There are a couple of people from the RPCNA church plant that are members here. Also, there is an RPCGA church in the Dallas area that is EP.


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm visiting FPCR (in Rowlett) which is EP, but that isn't the only thing I'm landing differently on with the PCA. Maybe bringing up Psalm singing was too hot button for what I was trying to get across. It's more in regards to the dividing, followed by dividing, followed by dividing...

I've met with the RPCNA folks, great people.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 28, 2013)

That's just reality of where we are I'm afraid. You have to make your own choices best you can; there are no guarantees you won't make a mistake. No one wants to waste time in an attempt to build a work, church plant, etc., that proves a failure. But that happens; you do some things but the work itself fails. That is not all bad news; that basically describes the Westminster Assembly. Some good will come of it; but any church you are with, you will have in the end just "men" leading the effort; all sorts of promise, gifts, etc.; but who are for all that, just men. They fail, and endeavors fail; don't be surprised by it; expect it in fact. Just don't let the promise of a pristine state of affairs in worship matters and otherwise blind you to cold facts. Look before you leap if I can put it in the vernacular. 


nick said:


> It's more in regards to the dividing, followed by dividing, followed by dividing...


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

All true. Thanks again everyone.


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## irresistible_grace (Mar 28, 2013)

nick said:


> Check my church history below to give you a little background.


I was baptized Roman Catholic as an infant but spent most of my childhood in the Assemblies of God. After marriage we joined a huge Independent Baptist Church. After "becoming reformed" we joined an ARP, OPC, RPCNA, & now the Free Church of Scotland (continuing).



> One thing I've noticed since becoming reformed is people get into smaller and smaller groups of like-minded people. Eventually they get into even smaller and smaller groups.


I agree but it seems this its more the case for those of us who come in from the outside and are learning/reforming as we go... not as much of issue for people born and raised reformed.



> Most of these groups seem to draw arbitrary lines about who's in and who's not or who's a heretic. Then in the name of "Semper Reformanda" breakaway from them and say they - their old church body - are going apostate.


I know where you are coming from but also know that this is NOT always the case... I saw this much more in the ARP I was a member of than I did anywhere else and that ARP was larger than the RPCNA & the FCC. I think it really depends on the congregations convictions and distinctions as well as each of the individuals that you are with there.



> Next thing you know you have a denomination of one pastor, 2 elders, and 3 churches. I'm not sure that's a general assembly.


  I have seen my share in the short time I've been in the reformed community.



> There are a lot of convictions I have that my current PCA church does not have. The longer I've been there the more I've run into issues. Not with the elders or people in the church - they've always been gracious. But there are views they hold to, that I do not that has caused me to withdraw my family more and more to protect them.
> 
> Example: Psalm singing
> 
> ...


I often regret leaving the RPCNA (even though I love the FCC & have no plans to ever go back to the RPCNA). I can not tell you where you should worship but highly recommend that you go to the RPCNA. And, if you do go, STAY! The only people making the slope slippery is us! Seriously, you need to be somewhere that you can raise your children without feeling like you have to "counter" teach them or "protect them from" _________.



> The alternative of never-ending splitting doesn't seem like what God had in mind, but I'm also part of the mega-church mindset that is everywhere. Then again, all those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. In a culture like the one most of the church is ok with or part of, why would I expect these off-shoot denominations to be big.
> 
> Just seems like they would all get together to make a greater impact. Instead it looks like disloyal city.
> 
> ...



The RPCNA doesn't quite fit the "off-shoot" caricature ... It is much smaller than the PCA but it is HUGE in comparison to FCC (Presbytery in the US), the RPCGA, & the PRC! Not to mention, it has been around a long time!


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## nick (Mar 28, 2013)

That was all very encouraging and helpful. Thank you. There are some things about the RPCNA I'm not sure of, so it has prevented me from having total buy in. I've listened to a lot of Gavin Beers and I believe McCurly is FCC as well. Learned a lot from both. No FCC option in Texas though 

Thanks again, that really helped.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 29, 2013)

NaphtaliPress said:


> That's just reality of where we are I'm afraid


And this arrives and confirms the same:

The PCA: Are We Taking Ourselves Too Seriously?

"The Presbyterian Church in America is the largest of the conservative Presbyterian denominations with 350,000 members, if you count the children, or 300,000 if you count only professors."

"Also, I wonder now how it is possible that anyone can say upon examination by a presbytery that he has no exceptions whatsoever to with the church’s doctrinal standards when those standards include the Confession of Faith, Larger Catechism, and Shorter Catechism. That’s a lot of detailed teaching about faith and practice. While it seems to me that good faith subscription can be wide enough to drive a theological and liturgical Mack truck through, I do not think there are many who can get their camels through the eye of really strict subscription."

Glad I was not drinking anything when I read that--would have made a mess of my computer screen. 

This item will be talked about for quite some time.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 29, 2013)

Then we would be taking ourselves too seriously.
Rather spot on seems to me.


Ask Mr. Religion said:


> This item will be talked about for quite some time.


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## JML (Mar 29, 2013)

nick said:


> There are some things about the RPCNA I'm not sure of, so it has prevented me from having total buy in.



I highly recommend the RPCNA even as a Baptist. I was a part of a RPCNA church for a year and have a lot of respect for the denomination.


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## MW (Mar 29, 2013)

nick said:


> The alternative of never-ending splitting doesn't seem like what God had in mind,



Ideally we should all be one; but that is not the reality. Denominationalism is a reality and it must be faced with Christian maturity.

The authority of the church extends no further than the commission which Christ as the Head of the Church has given to it. There are limits to church power. Each believer has the responsibility to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made him free and that may entail resisting the ordinances of men which bind conscience unnecessarily and lay stumbling-blocks in the way of Christian growth and witness. In that instance it is God's will (of command) to obey God rather than men.

There are degrees of separation, as taught in the Bible. There is complete separation and partial separation. One might recognise a church as true because it manifests the marks of a true church, and yet adhere to another true church because one believes it to be more pure and conducive to sanctification and witness.

Providentially, God uses even the divided and diverse state of the church to minister to the variety of conditions in which sinners find themselves. God's elect grow by degrees and sometimes a believer feels he must leave one church for another for the sake of "pressing on," while still thankful for the introduction to the Saviour he has received from his first church.

Preceptively, it is the duty of all Christians to act as brethren towards one another and strive to come to the same mind and speak the same things. It is also the duty of overseers to promote peace as far as they are able with a good conscience in accord with the confession of their faith.


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