# St. Peter's and R.C. Sproul Jr.



## Romans922 (Feb 19, 2006)

I was just wondering if there was any update on this situation. I was just looking at the RPCGA website and St. Peter's is no longer listed as a church. What is going on with this and is the denomination working to restore the church?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 19, 2006)

We discussed this here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=16427#pid228387

and here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=16440#pid229504


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

Very sad. I've heard they've pulled a "Robert Duvall" (from _The Apostle_) and ordained themselves. Even though they were de-frocked their congregation has apparently voted the Session back into leadership.

I have serious concerns for R.C. Jr. but I have a question for other members of the board:

1. Does anybody else get Tabletalk or is a Tape of the Month partner at Ligonier?
2. Anybody considering cancelling their support if they fail to remove R.C. Jr. as their Editor for the magazine?

Your honest feedback is appreciated.


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## brymaes (Feb 20, 2006)

> Very sad. I've heard they've pulled a "Robert Duvall" (from The Apostle) and ordained themselves. Even though they were de-frocked their congregation has apparently voted the Session back into leadership.



Can you substantiate this?


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by theologae_
> 
> 
> > Very sad. I've heard they've pulled a "Robert Duvall" (from The Apostle) and ordained themselves. Even though they were de-frocked their congregation has apparently voted the Session back into leadership.
> ...



http://hushmoney.org/R.C._Sproul_Jr._disclaimer.htm



> <p class="Body"><font face="Helvetica, Geneva, Arial, SunSans-Regular, sans-serif"><a id="dismissed" name="dismissed"></a>Update February 5, 2005</font></p>
> </div>
> <div align="center">
> <h3 class="Body"><font face="Helvetica, Geneva, Arial, SunSans-Regular, sans-serif">RPCGA Dismisses RC Sproul Jr and Defrocked Session and Is Immediately Reappointed as Elders by St. Peter <del>Presbyterian</del> Congregational Church </font></h3>
> ...


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 20, 2006)

> Vox populi vox dei -- the voice of the people is the voice of God.



May God forgive those who think in this manner.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> Very sad. I've heard they've pulled a "Robert Duvall" (from _The Apostle_) and ordained themselves. Even though they were de-frocked their congregation has apparently voted the Session back into leadership.
> 
> I have serious concerns for R.C. Jr. but I have a question for other members of the board:
> ...



Burk Parsons is listed as editor, not R.C. Jr, although Jr continues to contribute a monthly column. Sproul, Sr is listed as executive editor.

The Whitefield Seminary front page says "the picture of the Seminary graduate previously displayed with his written permission has been removed at the request of his organization" http://www.whitefield.edu
I'm assuming this was a picture of Sproul?


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> ...


Good point but he's been prominent over the years in Tabletalk. Do you think it reflects poorly if they don't remove him from his column if he continues in his current vein?

I'm really conflicted over this. I'm not vindictive and was very taken aback by this. Nevertheless, his actions while a Minister, and his current actions are very disturbing to me.

[Edited on 2-20-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## jfschultz (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



There is also a question of how far ahead the Tabletalk issues are prepared and printed. If they already dropped R.C Sproul, Jr's column it might still be several months before the subscribers see it is gone.


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## biblelighthouse (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> 
> 1. Does anybody else get Tabletalk or is a Tape of the Month partner at Ligonier?
> 2. Anybody considering cancelling their support if they fail to remove R.C. Jr. as their Editor for the magazine?



1. Yes, I get Tabletalk and the Tape of the Month.

2. No, I don't plan on cancelling. I mostly associate Tabletalk and the monthly tape with Sproul Sr., not Sproul Jr. Even if they decide to keep Sproul Jr. on there, I figure a couple of things:

a) Sproul Sr. may know what's going on behind the scenes in much more detail that we internet theologians do. There may be some serious stuff going on that prompted his removal of his picture from the Whitefield Theological Seminary website, for example. (I doubt that it's merely because his son was defrocked, or else he would have removed it weeks ago.) We are just simply outsiders, and can't judge the situation as well as those "in the know" may be able to do.

b) We should be compassionate on Sproul Sr. Remember, he is a dad, after all. And those of us who are fathers know how difficult it would be to depose a dearly loved son from such a position. Even if he *doesn't* have a good reason to let Sproul Jr. remain an editor, we should be compassionate, and not judge his entire ministry just based on a weakness he may happen to demonstrate on behalf of his son. Just put yourself in his shoes and try to imagine what papa is going through. 


In any case, I am edified by the Tape of the Month. Sproul Sr. does an excellent job. I have no plans to discontinue my subscription.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

Me too Joseph. I guess one option is just to stop reading R.C. Jr's column at the end. I really liked his thoughts. He's a very good writer in his own right. Hard to follow in the footsteps of a great father.

I've posted elsewhere how meaningful R.C. Sr. is to me. I vividly remember hearing a radio broadcast about the nature of the Roman Catholic Eucharist almost 9 years ago. I listened for the phone number at the end and ordered his tape series on Roman Catholicism and Faith Alone. Until that point, I had been a confused Roman Catholic that had drifted into Evangelicalism because the Charismatic Churches I attended in Evangelicalism so resembled the Charismatic Roman Catholic Church I had gotten excited about being a Christian in.

Twenty pages into Faith Alone and it was like the heavens opened up. I got a call a few weeks later about being a Tape of the Month supporter and I gladly threw my hat in. R.C. jokes about the supporters being among the elect in his conferences. Anyhow, I remember finding out, about 3 months later, that R.C. was a Calvinist and I was shocked. His ministry had been so meaningful to date that I was willing to read what he wrote about it. I don't remember how long it took me to be convinced but it was in pretty short order.

It took a few months after that before we finally wandered into a PCA Church in Springfield, VA. Since R.C. was in the PCA I figured I ought to see what it was like. I was afraid it would be super-boring.  (Remember I was in Charismatic Churches and thought "worship" had to be dynamic.) Anyway, the Pastor, Ron Bossom, greeted me after the service and I told him how much I enjoyed the sermon and that I was trying out the PCA Church because of R.C. Sproul's ministry.

He replied, "Ah yes, back in 1974 (?), I was a newly ordained minister with my PhD in hand and I was told to go interview a theologian who was seeking transfer into the PCA by the name of R.C. Sproul. I remember asking him questions and he would answer them and I would be like 'Really? Tell me more....'" 

Anyhow, I love R.C. Sproul for what he has meant to me and my family. It really grieves me what his son is doing and I'm sure it breaks his heart. I pray it will all work out.

Thanks for giving me perspective on it. The ministry is much bigger than his son.


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## biblelighthouse (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> 
> He replied, "Ah yes, back in 1974 (?), I was a newly ordained minister with my PhD in hand and I was told to go interview a theologian who was seeking transfer into the PCA by the name of R.C. Sproul. I remember asking him questions and he would answer them and I would be like 'Really? Tell me more....'"





I LOVE that story! Thank you for sharing that!


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## turmeric (Feb 20, 2006)

R. C. Sproul Sr. is also not in the PCA - not sure why that is. I get Tabletalk and plan to continue to do so. If Junior repents I'm not sure what they can do with him - maybe he could be a professor at seminary? Write more books? Anyway, Tabletalk articles are written by people with varying points of view, and R. C. Jr. has a very good mind, it ought to be used for something. I will just read his articles with more caution than I used to. Kinda like eatin' catfish, ya know?


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## DTK (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> R. C. Sproul Sr. is also not in the PCA - not sure why that is...


Dear Meg,

I was wondering if you could tell me when Dr. Sproul Sr. transferred out of the PCA. The latest available Yearbook of the PCA (2005) includes him as one of our ministers. To be sure, the church which he pastors is not in the PCA. But it's not uncommon for PCA ministers to be approved to labor out of bounds.

Blessings,
DTK


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## turmeric (Feb 20, 2006)

Sorry about that, I thought he and his church were not in the PCA. Glad that isn't so.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DTK_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by turmeric_
> ...


There are those that know more about what St. Andrews Chapel is. I've kind of divined stuff from his Tape of the Month. I believe he is still ordained in the PCA and a member of the Presbytery where his Chapel is located but the Chapel and Session are not within the Presbytery.

I base that on a statement he made in a Tape (CD really) last year where he was teaching on forgiveness. He said that there had been repentance within the congregation regarding some scandal but then the Presbytery wanted to get involved further for some unspecified reason. He recounted that he said to the Presbytery something to the effect of: "Don't go there, the Chapel is not in the Presbytery anyhow...."

I'm not sure of the exact polity but it seems like he's a part of a Session not under the authority of the Presbytery but he is still part of the Presbytery. Not sure how that all works out.


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## brymaes (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by theologae_
> ...



This is denied by an eyewitness.

From the Blog of He Who Shall Not Be Named

I think it's the 20th or so comment down the line.



> Correction of false assumptions by an eyewitness and member of St. Peter PC. - On Jan 26th, Dr. Talbot sent an email to members of SPPC deposing the current Session (Sproul, Windham, Hays & Barfield) and announcing SPPC was never really a member of the RPCGA, listing some accusations concerning paedo-communion, church discipline and church finances. The email also implied that formal church charges and trial were pending. - 6 days later, the men in question signed a doc repenting for violating the denomination's standards on paedocommunion and for "instances of mishandling office" and requesting release without censure from the RPCGA. No confession to specific accusations was made. Anyone who says otherwise probably presumes too much. - 2 days later, Dr. Talbot sent a letter superceding the first one which forgave the men for the sins confessed, released both the session and congregation from the RPCGA without censure. Ie, they were not "defrocked". - 2 days later at a congregational meeting at which the four former RPCGA elders were NOT PRESENT, the church spontaneously proposed and carried a motion to recognize our session as our session. - The church has continued having lay-led services without communion since Jan 26th. No presumption of re-ordination has been made by the men in question. - The church plans to seek denominational oversight ASAP. This account is not official. It's just what I saw with my own eyes.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 20, 2006)

I hope that's the case. I do wish, however, that the men would step down from leadership at least for a season. Even in "the world", we don't normally let men continue in immediate leadership after they have mishandled their responsibilities.


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## brymaes (Feb 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> I hope that's the case. I do wish, however, that the men would step down from leadership at least for a season. Even in "the world", we don't normally let men continue in immediate leadership after they have mishandled their responsibilities.



Agreed.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 20, 2006)

Don't forget that there were other theological and doctrinal issues that led to their removal as well.


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## matt01 (Feb 27, 2006)

From the Blog of He Who Shall Not Be Named

I would never have guessed who you were referring to.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 27, 2006)

Interesting...


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