# Rock and Roll and The Christian Life



## heartoflesh (Feb 23, 2010)

If this is not in the right forum section, please feel free to move it....

I was just listening to an old Albert Martin sermon the other day titled "The Effect of Music on Human Personality" http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/singular/am_musicinflu.mp3 wherein he spends a good deal of time he critiquing "Rock Music". A pretty general category, I know. I couldn't help but agree with some of his analysis, especially about the general atmosphere of a rock concert being "lawless frenzy". Also Mick Jagger's comment that a rock concert is not a success until it turns into "total madness".

I see from another thread here that there seems to be a general consensus that rock music is no big deal. So what gives? Is this just a generational thing? Is Albert just out to lunch? Honestly, it's been years since I've been to a "rock concert". I used to go to a lot of Grateful Dead shows back in the 80s and caught a lot of other great bands-- but that was before I had any inkling of who Christ was. I really couldn't imagine going to one of those concerts now. I just associate all that stuff with huge clouds of pot smoke, and maybe it's just not that way for everyone.

Not trying to start anything here or come off as a legalist-- just interested in other's thoughts on this. Is there any legitimacy in saying rock music in itself as a musical form and the atmosphere it creates and sustains is in any way diametrically opposed to the Christian life?


----------



## JML (Feb 23, 2010)

See this thread.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/separation-world-58656/


----------



## heartoflesh (Feb 24, 2010)

John Lanier said:


> See this thread.
> 
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/separation-world-58656/




Thanks, I guess that one gets straight to the point.


----------



## kvanlaan (Feb 24, 2010)

Yes, but you'll notice that there's a lot more activity on the "Favorite Rock Concerts You've Attended" thread...


----------



## Montanablue (Feb 24, 2010)

Joshua said:


> The abuse in the context of an environment which has said music going on cannot be used as an indictment for the arrangement of the musical notes inherently. Musical notes are just that. Musical notes. Arranged in a certain fashion they make a distinguished sound which is then classified as a _genre_ or whatever. Concerts, etc. are things which should be judged, handled, avoided, etc. on a case-by-case basis. One cannot say that every rock concert without exception is universally a bastion of sin and revelry. I'm quite confident in asserting that most of them are, but I believe those things are due to the wicked hearts of men and not some specific arrangement of musical notes.


 
Case in point: I love bluegrass music. I went to an outdoor Nickel Creek concert a few years ago. The atmosphere was completely benign - lots of families, college students, people picnicking etc. The same year I went to a Yonder Mountain String Band concert and there were drugs and lewd behavior everywhere. These are both really similar types of music, but for some reason unbeknownst to me (quite likely a choice of venue) the atmosphere was completely different. So, its certainly not always the music that makes a concert "good" or "bad."


----------



## Fly Caster (Feb 24, 2010)

This is a subject with which I wrestle. 

I grew up in a home where Rock & Roll was strictly forbidden. Upon reaching the freedom of adulthood, I went way too far the other way and made it something of an idol. God drew me back to Himself, and I sold hundreds of CD's for pennies on the dollar. Sometimes I wish I had some of them back.

I responded in the "concerts" thread, remembering some which I thoroughly enjoyed. I haven't attended a concert in 15 years, and have no plans to attend another. There are artists that I could enjoy in good conscience, although the whole atmosphere would leave me quite nauseous (For what it's worth, I've stopped attending sporting events for the same reason).

Today, I listen to some Rock & Roll music, chosen selectively, but I abhor the Rock & Roll lifestyle. Should I avoid it altogether? Perhaps. Do I enjoy it a little too much to give it up? That's a question that I honestly have to ask. I despise the thinking that "It's just music" and I do not believe that music is amoral. It communicates _something_, and I am to avoid _filthy communication_, so it appears that communication is not amoral.

My enjoyment of a good tune is usually restricted to when I am running. I could trade the Allman Brothers for some peppy CCM, but quite honestly, I do not care much for CCM (I detest it in a "Worship" service), for pretty much the same reason that I don't go to concerts and ball-games-- the shallowness, triviality, and just plain silliness turns me off. I would much rather hear a plain, simple Psalm.

Does this bit of private pleasure present a threat to the holiness of life for which I am to strive? Or is it like food, drink, and host of other simple pleasures that may be enjoyed in the right place but still could become idols? These are questions worth pondering-- questions that in answering I must remain humbly teachable.


----------



## heartoflesh (Feb 24, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > The abuse in the context of an environment which has said music going on cannot be used as an indictment for the arrangement of the musical notes inherently. Musical notes are just that. Musical notes. Arranged in a certain fashion they make a distinguished sound which is then classified as a _genre_ or whatever. Concerts, etc. are things which should be judged, handled, avoided, etc. on a case-by-case basis. One cannot say that every rock concert without exception is universally a bastion of sin and revelry. I'm quite confident in asserting that most of them are, but I believe those things are due to the wicked hearts of men and not some specific arrangement of musical notes.
> ...


 

Great observation. I too love bluegrass music, in fact I play guitar and mandolin. I love the great gospel heritage Bill Monroe left us and all those great gospel songs.


----------



## JBaldwin (Feb 24, 2010)

This discussion, along with the thread (Separation from the World) mentioned above have made me think again about music and all art forms in general. Last week before leaving the Chicago area, I took advantage of going to the Art Institute of Chicago because admission was free (Hey, I'm cheap). 

Art and music throughout the centuries have paralled one another when it comes to cultural trends and philosophies. (to argue against that is to argue against what the artists and musicians said about themselves and their beliefs) While walking through the galleries, I couldn't help thinking how the trends in art in the later 20th century were so much like the trends in music. The classic elements of art: line, form, shape were so often chaotic, out of perspective and confusing. They reflected the disorder, rebellion and chaos of the late 20th century, just as many forms of music (including rock). If you read what the artists of the time period had to say, you find they were not just experimenting with line, shape, form and color, they were openly rebelling against the forms that had been established for centuries. Musicians of the same time period (both classical and those who wrote in the rock genre) said basically the same thing about their music. 

I can't help but look back at those who established the forms of music and art against which the artists and musicians of the 20th century were rebelling. They were men who were for the most part closely connected with the church and whose purpose was to glorify God through art and music by copying the beauty and order God established in creation. 

For the Christian, art and music should reflect God's glory and demonstrate to the world the beauty and majesty of the God we love and serve. All art forms should be judged on this idea. Personally, while I once chose to argue for or against a certain form of music or art, I prefer now to run it through a different filter. Is it "true, honest, just, pure, lovely"? Does it give glory to God? or does it by it's very nature rebel against God? To me, that leaves much more room for all sorts of music and art. It also cuts out some things that I once thought were acceptable because of the "category" in which they happened to be classified.


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Feb 24, 2010)

From this post and the other one on separation from the world, it seems to me that we're talking past one another. A number of posters had said that it isn't the style of music, it's the lyrics. If this is the case, and one can come up with equally worldly examples from country-and-western, or operas, or bluegrass (at least one wordly concert mentioned above), then it seems an over-generalization to identify all rock music with something that the Christian should avoid. However, others in these posts have implied that there is more to it than lyrics. If not lyrics, then what specifically is it about rock music that makes it different than other forms of music? I think that the conversation will be more productive if we can clarify our positions better.

For the record, while I believe that I could and should be more discerning with my musical choices, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because there are numerous examples of worldly rock lyrics, entertainers, and concerts. I'm similarly not willing to abstain from movie theatres or having an occassional beer in a bar because of the grossly worldly movies (that I wouldn't go see) or the drunkedness (which I don't involve myself in) that can take place there. Perhaps these last two examples expose areas that I should similarly be more discerning in. If I am seeing this incorrectly, show me where I am going wrong, not by quoting someone who says that "a concert isn't successful until it's out of control" (I've been to lots of concerts that have been great and not out of control) or by saying that "everyone knows that rock music is worldly" (when that's exactly what we're discussing), but by pointing out my errors biblically.


----------



## rbcbob (Feb 24, 2010)

ericfromcowtown said:


> From this post and the other one on separation from the world, it seems to me that we're talking past one another. A number of posters had said that it isn't the style of music, it's the lyrics. If this is the case, and one can come up with equally worldly examples from country-and-western, or operas, or bluegrass (at least one wordly concert mentioned above), then it seems an over-generalization to identify all rock music with something that the Christian should avoid. However, others in these posts have implied that there is more to it than lyrics. If not lyrics, then what specifically is it about rock music that makes it different than other forms of music? I think that the conversation will be more productive if we can clarify our positions better.
> 
> For the record, while I believe that I could and should be more discerning with my musical choices, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because there are numerous examples of worldly rock lyrics, entertainers, and concerts. I'm similarly not willing to abstain from movie theatres or having an occassional beer in a bar because of the grossly worldly movies (that I wouldn't go see) or the drunkedness (which I don't involve myself in) that can take place there. Perhaps these last two examples expose areas that I should similarly be more discerning in. If I am seeing this incorrectly, show me where I am going wrong, not by quoting someone who says that "a concert isn't successful until it's out of control" (I've been to lots of concerts that have been great and not out of control) or by saying that "everyone knows that rock music is worldly" (when that's exactly what we're discussing), but by pointing out my errors biblically.




Titus 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly (κοσμικας) lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

We need to understand “worldly” in context. The Greek word for world κοσμος has many meanings. Pertinent to this discussion I would take Thayers definitions #6 and 7.



> The world- κοσμος
> 
> 6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; 14:27 (John 17:27); 15:18f; 16:8,20,33; 17:9, 14f 25; 1 Cor. 1:21; 6:2; 11:32; 2 Cor. 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 5:9; 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:20; 1 John 3:1,13; 4:5; 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Heb. 11:38; in Noah's time, …, John 8:23; 15:19; 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;… to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; …
> 
> 7. "worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ": Gal. 6:14; 1 John 2:16f; 3:17; ……..



John 17:16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world.


Now the apostles, when they warned against THE WORLD or WORLDLINESS did not give a lengthy qualification as to which of the many senses that κοσμος they were using it. They fully expected their readers to understand.

Similarly we need to understand which sense applies to the discussion at hand. The Scriptures plainly warn us against the world and worldliness. There is obviously an objective, recognizable content to the thing which we are warned to shun.

I have stated in the post on Separation from the World :



> Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
> • Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
> • where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
> • where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
> ...



The worldliness of which the Scripture warns is patently part and parcel in the “world of Rock n’ Roll. To deny this is to be disingenuous.


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Feb 24, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> I have stated in the post on Separation from the World :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Are you willing to believe that not all Rock music equates to your five statements above? If a particular Rock act did not equate to the above, would it be your position that one still should not attend because of "the appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22), even if no overt wordliness was present? Or, do you believe that all Rock acts fit the five points above without exception? Since the same five statements could be held true for country-and-western, hollywood movies, or pubs, do you believe that we should similarly avoid those settings? If not, why not?

I'm honestly not trying to be disingenuous, but am just trying understand your position better.


----------



## rbcbob (Feb 24, 2010)

> Are you willing to believe that not all Rock music equates to your five statements above?



Yes. I have indicated in the other thread that there can be exceptions. But exceptions, by nature, stand out from the predominant rule.



> If a particular Rock act did not equate to the above, would it be your position that one still should not attend because of "the appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22), even if no overt wordliness was present?



Such an exceptional situation would require prayerful discernment.



> Or, do you believe that all Rock acts fit the five points above without exception? Since the same five statements could be held true for country-and-western, hollywood movies, or pubs, do you believe that we should similarly avoid those settings? If not, why not?



Any free and optional opportunity for leisure and entertainment which was characterized by the things listed above would involve choosing to “enjoy” that which is characteristically worldly, i.e. ungodly.



> Ephesians 5: 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 *And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness*, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light." 15 *See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise*, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.


----------



## SolaScriptura (Feb 24, 2010)

Just a question: Is there a disposition - or mood - that is inherently wrong, or should at least be discouraged by Christians? I ask because the effects of certain types of music on one's mood are pretty well known. Indeed, if I remember correctly, certain types of music actually cause your body to release adrenaline. There is a reason why in locker rooms they play hardcore music. 


Incidentally, I only listen to "heavy metal" music when I'm in the gym.


----------



## Philip (Feb 24, 2010)

I can think of several modern rock acts that would not fit any of the criteria that you have described, Bob:

Phil Keaggy: Musician who came to Christ out of the Rock n'Roll culture and is today considered one of the best rock and classical guitarists out there.
Switchfoot: Originally CCM but went mainstream in 2003. Lyrics express a clearly, though not always explicitly, Christian worldview. Existential lyrics with Christian answers.
Shai Linne: Calvinist hip-hop/rap artist (does the book of Romans in rap)
dc Talk: Hip-Hop/Rock fusion group, famous for its album "Jesus Freak".
Reliant K: lighter version of Switchfoot.

My approach to rock is to take it song-by-song. If I hear a good song, I'm not going to worry about who wrote it--all truth is God's truth wherever I can find it. Can anything good come out of Rock n'Roll? Sure, just as good things can come out of Jazz, Opera, film, or any other art form. Discernment means knowing how to determine between the gold nuggets and the slime balls.

Should Christians read _The Iliad_? Should Christians read Plato?


----------



## jayce475 (Feb 24, 2010)

ericfromcowtown said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> > I have stated in the post on Separation from the World :
> ...


 


P. F. Pugh said:


> I can think of several modern rock acts that would not fit any of the criteria that you have described, Bob:
> 
> Phil Keaggy: Musician who came to Christ out of the Rock n'Roll culture and is today considered one of the best rock and classical guitarists out there.
> Switchfoot: Originally CCM but went mainstream in 2003. Lyrics express a clearly, though not always explicitly, Christian worldview. Existential lyrics with Christian answers.
> ...


 
In the end it boils down to the idea of bliblical separation and how far we practise it. "James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." The debates have been around how we actually apply the second part of this verse, as well as all other verses pertaining to biblical separation. God's guidelines are pretty clear. 1 Cor 10:23 "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." Where it is grey, we steer clear. 1 Cor 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." Where we are possibly unable to glorify God in our thoughts, we steer clear. Engaging art forms with a full view of God's glory in sight is never bad in itself, but when we start using this as an excuse for exposure to stuff that gratify our flesh (do we really have to know how we are sinning in the mind to be sinning in the mind? The thrilling sensations I get from listening to dc Talk is enough reason for me to know that my flesh enjoys it a lot and I should stop listening to it), then we are not practising the biblical separation at all. Doing scientific experiments on compost is one thing, but trying to dig into compost to find something that we want to eat is another.


----------



## Philip (Feb 24, 2010)

> but when we start using this as an excuse for exposure to stuff that gratify our flesh . . .
> 
> The thrilling sensations I get from listening to dc Talk is enough reason for me to know that my flesh enjoys it a lot and I should stop listening to it



I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by "the flesh" here? Mere physical or emotional pleasure in and of itself is not evil, Biblically. Should we not glorify God and _enjoy_ Him? There is not a beat in Rock n'Roll that did not come from Negro Spirituals, and hardly a chord that was not used by J. S. Bach. Is the form in and of itself evil? Can I listen to Rock music to the Glory of God? Sure.


----------



## jayce475 (Feb 24, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> > but when we start using this as an excuse for exposure to stuff that gratify our flesh . . .
> >
> > The thrilling sensations I get from listening to dc Talk is enough reason for me to know that my flesh enjoys it a lot and I should stop listening to it
> 
> ...


 
2 Tim 3:4 "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God"

I think we are working on very different definitions of giving glory to God in our minds. I seek no pleasures on this earth, other than that I derive out of knowing God and setting my affections on the things above. Every single thought needs to be captive to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ". Anything less is seeking worldly pleasure. Not saying that I don't seek worldly pleasure, but I know it is sin and the new man in me hates it.

If I buy a new fancy new pair of shoes simply because it looks nice and I hide behind an excuse that I'm appreciating God's creation, I know I'm lying. I'm not buying it because I want to be modestly dressed before others and giving thanks to God for His providence. Why did I not want to go for a pair of shoes that looked more ordinary and be a better steward of the money that God has given to me? Because I am sinful and the flesh wants to join in with worldly fashions and to look like the world. The very same applies to me when it comes to Christian rock. Ultimately I know I am not being honest to myself if I claim that I am able to hold every thought captive to Christ while listening to them. I really really do like "Jesus Freak" and Shai Linne's raps, but deep inside me I know that I am pandering to the flesh and seeking fleshly pleasure instead of pleasure from God when I listen to them. To me, I'm already violating the first commandment when I do so, because my emotional highs are now more important than God. As I have said many times, if you are indeed able to hold every single thought captive to Christ, meditate on God's truths and grow in your grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ without at anytime be seeking fleshly pleasure at the sake of deriving full pleasure and joy out of God and God alone while listening to whatever music in the world (inclusive of secular rock and absolutely every form of entertainment out there), then by all means go ahead. I am unable to do so, so I am practising biblical separation from all of these things. I'm also convinced that this is generally the rule and not the exception for most believers, so I am taking the stance that I am on these threads. If you are the exceptional one, then good for you. Just bear in mind the thorny ground in the parable of the sower while you are at it.


----------



## Galatians220 (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm old enough to remember the flap over Elvis Presley _et alia_ in the fifties and the early objections people had to "rock and roll" music (the very term was coined to mean something not worth discussing here). "Rock and roll" was a spin-off of Southern blues and at first, it was considered a _dirty _spin-off of it. It was not expected to endure and its demise was predicted all the time. It's also true that much of it was at first deemed "race music," with all of those nasty underpinnings. That happened even up here. But eventually, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino and so many others got into the mainstream of popular music and the rest is history. I was taken in with all the other kids of the sixties (into the music; not into the lifestyle), but after my conversion, I lost interest in and "put off" much of what I'd enjoyed as a kid and young woman.

With regard to opera's moral superiority over rock, though, I would invite anyone to listen to the "Liebestod" of "Tristan und Isolde" by Wagner and "Maybelline" by Chuck Berry and then state which anyone might think is more appealing to carnality... It's just one example; there are others. 

Margaret


----------



## Philip (Feb 24, 2010)

It seems to me, though, that you are saying that we are to be so fixated on the heavenly things that we can forget about all earthly pleasures. Yet why then did God create the earthly pleasure?



> inclusive of secular rock and absolutely every form of entertainment out there



By this logic, you shouldn't have an internet connection except for work. Even study of the things of God can be a form of entertainment. Means also that we shouldn't delight in the beauty of a landscape or the artist who paints it. Are we to be so fixated on Heaven that we're ascetic? Seems to me that this is the wrong approach.

Can we enjoy things in this world which God has made? Indeed we can--as Kuyper said, "There is not a single square inch in all creation of which Christ has not said, 'This is mine!.'" Is it possible to worship God in art, music, literature, film, birdwatching, science, philosophy, history, math, poetry, friendship, love, eating, drinking, playing and all good human activity? Yes! Do we abuse these good things, yes but that's not because they are evil or harmful in and of themselves, but because we, even as redeemed people, find it hard to go without sinning, even in our prayers and devotions.

Let me ask this (and I'm not meaning to be crass): if our God is against pleasure, why did He create sex and marriage? Was it just for procreation? Surely there would have been less pleasurable and tempting ways to do that! Yet marriage is a good thing instituted by God himself.

Now, can these things distract? Absolutely--we're sinners and we're being sanctified. Yet this should not keep us from delighting in what God has made us to do--glorify Him in our everyday activities. The Christian plumber who enjoys plumbing and does it well to the glory of God is engaged in just as holy a task as the preacher who preaches well to the glory of God or the Christian filmmaker who produces good movies to the glory of God. I submit that not being worldly means sanctifying every aspect of everyday life, whether it be work, play, reading, sleeping, sex, friendship, eating, drinking, all of it! The Gospel speaks to all of it and can sanctify all of it.


----------



## jayce475 (Feb 24, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> It seems to me, though, that you are saying that we are to be so fixated on the heavenly things that we can forget about all earthly pleasures. Yet why then did God create the earthly pleasure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry, but I do find it disconcerting that you are lumping many different things into the same topic. Labour is labour, and God commends it. We especially make us of our work to be salt and light to the world. Enjoying our food and drink is our due and a necessity, so it is good as long as we do it with faith. Sleeping in moderation and resting are biblical, as evident from the institution of the Sabbath. Sex is sex, and God commends the enjoyment of it in the context of a marriage. Study of anything in this world without viewing it from God's perspective is vanity according to Solomon. Laughter is mad and mirth is vanity according to Solomon, and this specifically pertains to what we call entertainment today. Reading through the book of Ecclesiastes changed my life and caused me to not want to partake of entertainment products anymore.

As said many many times before, there is a world of difference between studying an object of entertainment and simply reveling in it for the kick of it. Reading for the sake of understanding this utterly corrupt and sinful world that is going to be destroyed is good, but reading for the sake of thrilling our flesh is no different from seeking entertainment. The last time I checked, I go to uni everyday to understand the world better from the perspective of speech pathology, I interact with people around me, and I read on modern psychology to understand how twisted it is. I simply do not go to cinemas, watch the latest drama serials on TV, go to rock concerts, listen to any non-spiritual music, play computer games or partake of what young people today generally call entertainment because I practise biblical separation from things with worldly associations. I am aware of movies, games, TV shows and secular music because I read about them online and on the newspapers, so I can discuss about them from God's perspective with my friends. I just don't spend my time enjoying them for hours upon hours and spending the money that God has given me on entertainment products that do not edify my soul. If this type of a lifestyle is what you would deem to be ascetic and you think I'm removing myself from the world to a degree beyond what God desires us to do, then so be it. It's called the narrow gate and the narrow path for a reason.


----------



## Philip (Feb 24, 2010)

> I'm sorry, but I do find it disconcerting that you are lumping many different things into the same topic.



Why separate that which is naturally together?



> Reading for the sake of understanding this utterly corrupt and sinful world that is going to be destroyed is good, but reading for the sake of thrilling our flesh is no different from seeking entertainment.



Thus fiction and poetry inherently evil, since they are written to inspire pleasures. Cannot pleasure be edifying? Can we not use narrative, poetic imagery, and art to communicate and receive truth?

Should we enjoy the Good, the True, and the Beautiful? I believe we should. Some of us may be tempted in certain areas and should avoid certain otherwise harmless pleasures. Others will have differences in taste and temperament. Nonetheless, I think that we should take pleasure in the things that God has given us--no pleasure that is not inherently sinful cannot be done to the glory of God.

You see this approach as that of going through the compost heap. I see it as being analogous to going to the junk shop. True, there's a lot things there that don't deserve our time. Yet there are some things there that are valuable, if we take the time to look for them.


----------



## jayce475 (Feb 24, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> > I'm sorry, but I do find it disconcerting that you are lumping many different things into the same topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The bible treats them separately, so I treat them separately. Using poetry, narratives and art to communicate God's truth, absolutely great. I love the Pilgrim's Progress. Using them to feed the young minds post-modernistic ideas which they have no discernment against, absolutely no. The concept of whether pleasure itself is edifying is strange. We are talking about the activities, not what we get out of it. It is edifying if it gives us pleasure that is rooted in God and draws us closer to God and it isn't if it gives us any other kind of pleasure. As I've said before, your idea of doing something to the glory of God is significantly different from what I've defined according to scriptures. The entertainment scene is a compost heap and not a junk shop because God says "Come ye forth out of the unclean thing". Could I ask you about your take on all the passages on biblical separation? If we are going to engage in everything as the world does, what sort of separation are you looking at?


----------



## Philip (Feb 24, 2010)

> If we are going to engage in everything as the world does, what sort of separation are you looking at?



But here you mistake me: I am not advocating that we engage in everything as the world does. I advocate that we engage in everything as the world does not. That is, to sanctify everything. Can we enjoy our work, despite its hardness? Yes, because all honest labor is holy. Can I take pleasure in an opera? Yes, because in doing so I am enjoying God's gifts to those who create it. Christians can truly enjoy life to its fullest because we know who the giver of joy is and can give thanks and praise to Him for it.

We are separate in that we speak into the world and say, "You have so much that is right--why can you not see the truth?" This is what Paul says to the philosophers--even their own poets had grasped something that could be appropriated for the Kingdom. If you have not done so, read Augustine's _City of God_, where he even uses pagan philosophers like Plato in his defense of the Gospel.

Again, can a Christian be edified by reading Homer? By watching the plays of Shakespeare? By viewing the paintings of Picasso? By listening to Brahms, Louis Armstrong, or George Winston? By viewing the films of Tarkovsky, Bergman, or Welles? By reading the novels of Dickens, Dostoevsky, and Steinbeck? Few of these artists were Christians (Dostoevsky, Shakespeare,and Tarkovsky were), yet all are examples of excellence in their fields. Can't we appreciate and enjoy their work even as we lament their fallenness?

The difference is this: where the world enjoys pleasure for the sake of self, we enjoy it because it is ultimately from God that all pleasure comes from. Are certain pleasures restricted to certain contexts? Indeed. Should we be personally discerning about what we watch, listen to, and read? Absolutely. However, unless there is a specific sin involved (aka: a person watches ****, delights in explicitly God-hating music, etc.) I think we should practice charity both toward the stronger brother and the weaker brother. I may not enjoy rap, but my brother does--enjoying a particular genre is not in and of itself evil unless it involves idolatry or some other sin. 

However, we cannot equate pleasure with sin--else we invalidate all musical forms (other than hymnody and psalm-singing) to the compost heap. I, for one, give glory to God when I listen to a Bach fugue, a Celtic dance, or a well-written non-explicit rock song. Why? Because I know where the gift and the pleasure came from.


----------



## jayce475 (Feb 25, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> > If we are going to engage in everything as the world does, what sort of separation are you looking at?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
We are talking past each other to a point where I think we ought to stop. Your idea of enjoyment roughly corresponds to what I'm calling engaging, but there's too much an element of reveling to it which I won't agree to. We both agree that we ought to be critical about all things that we come across, but the degree to which this idea of "enjoyment/reveling" comes in is different. Also, we have drastically different views on the application of biblical separation. It will remain a compost heap for me and a junk shop for you lest one of our convictions changes drastically. Regardless, I will stand by my stance that we ought to be separate from entertainment products in the sense of literally being separate from them apart from the purpose of critique.


----------



## KMK (Feb 25, 2010)

Moved to Pilgrim's Progress Forum...


----------

