# Should we forgive those who do not repent?



## Romans922

Should we?


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## BobVigneault

Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.

Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”


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## Davidius

BobVigneault said:


> Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
> 
> Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
> as we also have forgiven our debtors.
> 
> Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”



But isn't God's forgiveness of us contingent upon our repentance? Therefore if our forgiveness is to be like God's perhaps we should only forgive the repentant. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just playing "devil's advocate" because that's the thought that came into my mind when you said that our forgiveness is contingent upon God's.

P1 God's forgiveness is our model
P2 God only forgives the repentant (that's why he forgave us)

C We should only forgive the repentant

???

[bible] Luke 17:3-4[/bible]


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## Simply_Nikki

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> But isn't God's forgiveness of us contingent upon our repentance? Therefore if our forgiveness is to be like God's perhaps we should only forgive the repentant.
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, just playing "devil's advocate" because that's the thought that came into my mind when you said that our forgiveness is contingent upon God's.
> 
> P1 God's forgiveness is our model
> P2 God only forgives the repentant (that's why he forgave us)
> 
> C We should only forgive the repentant
> 
> ???
> 
> [bible] Luke 17:3-4[/bible]


 
Don't know if what I was taught wrong, but I thought we should always be willing to forgive others, but if others sin against us and do not repent we do not have the obligation to forgive them, until they repent.


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## Davidius

It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.


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## BobVigneault

God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

From the cross Christ prayed, 'forgive them, they know not what they are doing'. 

We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.

I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.


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## Davidius

BobVigneault said:


> God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



But no one is saying that repentance is a meritorious work. We're just saying that it's a necessary one. Of course God's forgiveness of our sin isn't a reward for our repentance, but without repentance God will not forgive us. 



BobVigneault said:


> I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.



This is the one I was looking at earlier.

[bible]Luke 17:3-4[/bible]


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## BobVigneault

Jesus set the example as he prayed from the cross, Stephen followed that example in Acts 7:59


> And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “*Lord, do not hold this sin against them.*” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.




Stephen was not looking at an OPTION to forgive he was carrying out the command to forgive.

Forgiveness or our neighbor (image of God) is a CHOICE based on God's forgiveness of his elect. There is no need for a qualifier.


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## BobVigneault

David, the Luke 17 passage is an excellent verse to bolster the argument for making forgiveness contingent on repentance. That's the one I would use. But now you must balance it against Mark 11:25


> And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”



Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?


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## Davidius

BobVigneault said:


> Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?



I suppose I would want to know what it really means to forgive someone. Earlier I said this:



me said:


> It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repent I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.



Can we distinguish two kinds of forgiveness? This came into my mind again when you quoted Christ on the Cross. When Christ asked the Father to forgive all the people there, it obviously doesn't mean "forgive" in the first sense I mentioned, because not everyone about whom he was speaking (as far as I know) was forgiven of their sins and granted eternal life. I can forgive people for doing cruel things to me in one sense, that is, I can stop holding a grudge against them. But I'm not going to let someone who sins against me without repentance be someone to whom I entrust myself in any real way. And this is how it is ultimately between God and unrepentant sinners. That's why I was wondering if it's possible to speak about forgiveness in the context of actual reconciliation as well as within the context of letting go of any personal grudge a person may hold. So in Luke 17, when the person repents of his sin, we are supposed to remain in fellowship with them. This would be the same in situations of church discipline. However, if we were to forgive people in the fullest sense of the word who are unrepentant, wouldn't that undermine church discipline and our duty to "shun the immoral brother" as well as stay away from dangerous characters in general?


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## BobVigneault

I think you've hit the answer square David. The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.

Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.

This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.

Good night David.


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## Davidius

BobVigneault said:


> The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
> 
> Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
> 
> This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
> 
> Good night David.



  good night!


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## BJClark

Yes, we should forgive, even IF they are unrepentant...

I would refer to Matthew 6:14-15

"And if ye forgive men their trespasses, Your heavenly Father will also forgive you; BUT IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive Your trespasses."

I think there is a misconception people have concerning forgiveness and reconcilation, thinking they are the same thing, but they aren't...they are two very different things.

I can forgive someone who has hurt me, and yet set boundaries on the type of relationship I have with them if they refuse to repent. 

Reconciliation should ONLY happen when both parties agree (confess) to the wrongs committed--and turn away from those behaviors.

Even looking at God's forgiveness, He forgives, yet, there isn't reconcilitation UNTIL the person confesses (agrees with God about His sin), and repents. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" 

So God forgave, even though they didn't understand what they did wrong, but even then the reconciliation didn't happen, UNTIL they/we confessed and repented.


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## Romans922

Are these passages really dealing with people who are not repentant? Or are they dealing with people who are repentant and the point being made is 'dont hold a grudge'?


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## bookslover

BobVigneault said:


> Good night, David.



Good night, Chet.

(older folks will get it)


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## turmeric

[cricket noises in background]Goodnight...[/cricket noises in background]


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## BJClark

Romans922 said:


> Are these passages really dealing with people who are not repentant? Or are they dealing with people who are repentant and the point being made is 'dont hold a grudge'?




Considering they come right after the Lords Prayer, I would say it doesn't matter.

WE as Christians are to forgive, even if the other person isn't repentant.

Isn't that loving our neighbor as you love ourself? And doing unto others as we would want them to do to us?

Is there sin against us, greater than their sin against God? 

Are we not supposed to be examples of Christ's love of forgiveness? 

Forgiving even when someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they haven't repented?

Do WE deserve to be forgiven by God for our sins against Him?

No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.


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## bookslover

You know, with all those kids in that family, I always wondered how many bathrooms they had in that house.


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## Romans922

BJClark said:


> Considering they come right after the Lords Prayer, I would say it doesn't matter.
> 
> WE as Christians are to forgive, even if the other person isn't repentant.
> 
> Isn't that loving our neighbor as you love ourself? And doing unto others as we would want them to do to us?
> 
> Is there sin against us, greater than their sin against God?
> 
> Are we not supposed to be examples of Christ's love of forgiveness?
> 
> Forgiving even when someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they haven't repented?
> 
> Do WE deserve to be forgiven by God for our sins against Him?
> 
> No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.



So when someone has committed adultery and is unrepentant and they come before church discipline and are unrepentant and they are excommunicated. 

I don't see forgiveness in this. I see the willingness to forgive and an attempt being made to restore the person, but the person is still unrepentant and we treat him as a taxcollector..etc. Willing and Wanting to forgive but can't because the person won't repent.


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## Davidius

BJClark said:


> No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.



Could you clarify this? The idea that God has forgiven all but they can only realize their forgiveness and be reconciled to Him if they turn sounds patently Arminian. Wouldn't it be that God forgives us _and_ reconciles us only after we've acknowledged our sinfulness?


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## Romans922

Besides, the argument that Jesus says, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do' is invalid. Just because Jesus calls for the Father to forgive them doesn't mean it will actually happen. It is easy to see Jesus' desire for forgiveness, and I am sure He wants their repentance, but it is obvious that probably many of those people there did not repent and therefore were not forgiven. Some yes, did repent, were forgiven. But God obviously doesn't forgive everyone! If it were so, all would be saved. But that is not so, Christ did not die for all. God wills them to repent, they repent, they are forgiven. Jesus' prayer is that, a desire, a want, but it can't be mistaken for actually forgiveness. Forgiveness comes through the cross, we all know this.


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## BobVigneault

Andrew, I associate Christs request from the cross with this verse from Matthew (and Luke) 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

The arminians like to say this verse shows that grace can be resisted, sinking the "I" in TULIP. But Christ is here speaking TO the religious leaders. These men stood in the way of letting the people come to Jesus. They tried to thwart God's redemptive plan and delivered Jesus to the Romans for crucifixion.

Hence, Jesus is asking God not to hold the actual crucifixion against the Romans and the people of Jerusalem but let the responsibility fall upon the religious leaders. Let their house (Temple economy, sacrificial system, temple itlself) be made desolate.




Romans922 said:


> Besides, the argument that Jesus says, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do' is invalid. Just because Jesus calls for the Father to forgive them doesn't mean it will actually happen. It is easy to see Jesus' desire for forgiveness, and I am sure He wants their repentance, but it is obvious that probably many of those people there did not repent and therefore were not forgiven. Some yes, did repent, were forgiven. But God obviously doesn't forgive everyone! If it were so, all would be saved. But that is not so, Christ did not die for all. God wills them to repent, they repent, they are forgiven. Jesus' prayer is that, a desire, a want, but it can't be mistaken for actually forgiveness. Forgiveness comes through the cross, we all know this.


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## Romans922

Ok, that works too, I was just pointing out that many people use that case to attempt to prove that we should forgive even when there is no repentance.


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## Davidius

Romans922 said:


> Ok, that works too, I was just pointing out that many people use that case to attempt to prove that we should forgive even when there is no repentance.



Would you agree with the conclusion we reached last night, that forgiveness of those who do not repent consists in not holding bitterness in one's own heart against that person yet remaining publicly unreconciled?


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## Romans922

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Would you agree with the conclusion we reached last night, that forgiveness of those who do not repent consists in not holding bitterness in one's own heart against that person yet remaining publicly unreconciled?




I would say that I agree with the concept but I wouldn't attribute the word 'forgiveness' to that concept. I think 'forgiveness' is defined differently.

I don't think it is strictly emotional, and I don't think that Scripture uses 'forgive' in more than one way (I could be wrong obviously).


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## LadyFlynt

I believe Bobbi spoke well when she noted the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. I can forgive those that have sinned against me, that has to do with my own heart...but we cannot be reconciled until they have repented, confessed, and sought forgiveness, that has to do directly with their wrongdoing (and vise versa as we are prone to wrong as well).


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## Romans922

Sorry, but isn't forgiveness pardoning someone of their sin? If we are to mimic God, how can we pardon someone who is unrepentant (not saying we are God)?


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## BobVigneault

Romans922 said:


> I don't think it is strictly emotional, and I don't think that Scripture uses 'forgive' in more than one way (I could be wrong obviously).



Andrew, I appreciate your caution regarding defining the words of scripture but you must remember that the definition of the word is made up of etymology, usage at the time and context. In scripture context is supremely important. So 'forgiveness' can have and does have more than one meaning in scripture. 

Again, the Matt and Luke passages contradict each other if you do not pay attention to the context.


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## BobVigneault

Romans922 said:


> Sorry, but isn't forgiveness pardoning someone of their sin? If we are to mimic God, how can we pardon someone who is unrepentant (not saying we are God)?



We don't, we release the responsibility of pardoning to God so that we will not be hobbled by a grudge and be consumed by our anger.

We look for an opportunity, without bitterness and in response to God's command to be reconciled. This reconciliation is brought about by repentance and forgiveness.


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## Romans922




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## Romans922

Just because you don't forgive someone doesn't mean you have to harbor anger or a grudge. I believe if we have a willingness to forgive and a love for a person, there won't be anger/grudge. If we are forgiving people, although they don't repent, in order that we don't act or feel a certain way; I think we may be missing the point.


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## BobVigneault

You can love a person who has hurt you without forgiving them? I think it's time you give us your definition (or definitions) of forgiveness Andrew. You're working hard to maintain a certain definition of forgiveness but I'm not able to figure out what it is.


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## Romans922

Definition of forgiveness...? 

Quite honestly for OUR defintion of forgiveness that is actually practical to our life, I don't think you can use Jesus' crucifixion for an example for US! Why? Because He isn't being crucified right now. And the reason people sin now is not because they don't know what they are doing.

Romans 1 is clear that EVERY SINGLE person knows God and they know God's law and that breaking that law is punishable by death. 

So in an example, someone sins (they break God's law)...they are punishable by death because of that sin. Now if God doesn't forgive that person, why am I forgiving that person? I'm not, they are going to be condemned of that sin by God...if I forgive them it is as if I look and view them as a repentant sinner, a Christian. If we don't forgive then they are viewed in a person's sight (just like God) as an unrepentant sinner in need of saving. 

It seems that most verses like 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors' is somewhat of a parallel. HERE WE ARE LORD, FORGIVE US (REPENTING) just as we forgive the people who sin against us (who are repentant). 

Luke 17 says, "3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." 

Matthew 18:32 - Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.


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## Greg

About two years ago a close family member of mine (who is not a Christian) did something that involved one of my daughters…she was 5 years old at the time. My daughter came and told my wife and I about the incident. To this day, not only is this person unrepentant, but still claims that nothing ever happened. This family member insists that what our daughter told us is false.

To be very honest, even after two years I am still struggling with forgiving this person. How can you forgive someone who to this day claims that their offense is a lie?

Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing? 

Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?


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## Davidius

Greg said:


> Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing?
> 
> Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?



Greg,

From what everyone has been saying, even those who disagree with each other on certain aspects of the question, I don't think anyone would say that forgiveness need at all entail resuming contact with this person and letting them back into close fellowship with your immediate family.


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## tcalbrecht

BobVigneault said:


> Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
> 
> Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
> as we also have forgiven our debtors.
> 
> Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”




These verses do not indicate whether the forgiveness is conditional or unconditional. E.g., Matt, 6 continues:



> For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.



It could be read as saying that if a person comes seeking forgiveness you are obligated to forgive them just as your heavenly Father has forgiven you in Christ. But Christ does not forgive the unrepentant of their sins, otherwise we are left with a sort of universalism.

There must be a genuine expression of repentance on the part of the offender in order for forgiveness *and* reconciliation to be obtained (the two go together).



> "But didn't Jesus pray for His persecutors?" Yes. "Didn't He ask His Father to 'forgive them'?" Yes. "Did He?" Yes. "When? How?" Some were forgiven on the Day of Pentecost as the result of Peter's sermon; but not apart from conviction of sin (cf. Acts 2:37), and not apart from the message of salvation." They had to repent and believe the gospel. Forgiveness came to them as the result of the atonement; not apart from it. These facts must be borne in mind by Christian counselors at all times when counseling." (Jay Adams, _The Basis for Forgiveness_)


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## BobVigneault

It's always fun until someone gets hurt.

These ivory tower debates and discussions are profitable and fun. Of course when you must quickly turn to the practical application of theology to a real life tragedy, then the fun quickly dissipates.

Greg, as I have been discussing this issue I have had a very similar situation in the forefront of my attention. There is a fellow who has hurt one of my daughters and our family deeply. This is an ongoing tragedy. I have threatened, in public, to kill him. The police told me I can't do that. I say that to give you an indication of my emotional investment. Even now I HOPE he suffers in some way for what he's done.

Obviously I can't live with an attitude of wanting to kill this guy. That is sin against our Father and it would consume me. I would be an ineffective husband, dad and witness if I let my anger dominate me. So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness *only happens in prayer* to the Father. No one else has to know. I accept that all sins will be punished in hell or on the cross. I release my need for vengeance to God who is my avenger. This forgiveness frees me to be Christian in my conduct. It is based on trust in God and on His forgiving me, an undeserving sinner. In prayer I have even asked that God be glorified in saving this wretch that has destroyed so much. I don't want this guy to win the lottery but I would delight in seeing God exalted in his salvation.

On the other hand, the fellow has not repented (he's not a believer) and continues to provoke me. I will not offer him my hand in fellowship, I will not have contact with him. I know my limitations and I won't tempt myself. So in light of the Luke 17 passage I do not owe him forgiveness. I must hold out that he might one day burn with guilt and God will grant him repentance. If and when he does this, then I owe him public forgiveness. I will forgive him his debt because great was the debt my Father forgave me.

I believe this response would apply to your situation.


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## tcalbrecht

BobVigneault said:


> You can love a person who has hurt you without forgiving them? I think it's time you give us your definition (or definitions) of forgiveness Andrew. You're working hard to maintain a certain definition of forgiveness but I'm not able to figure out what it is.



Love and forgiveness are two different things. This is true with God as well as with men.

I can love my enemy even when he does horrible things to me. If he murders one of my children I can love him as I should by God's command and example. But there is no obligation to forgive him of his action until he repents and sincerely seeks that forgiveness.



> But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.



Is not God's forgiveness of us conditioned on our action? It is a demonstration of repentance that is required, both between God and men as well as men to one another.

One other thing, Jay Adams says regarding "forgiving and forgetting":



> You promise not to remember his sin by bringing it up to him, to others, or to yourself. The sin is buried.



This can only be accomplished if the person has come to seek forgiveness, otherwise you are obligated to bring the matter to that person *until* they repent and do the right thing. Then, once that is done, you do not bring the matter up again.


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## BobVigneault

Tom, I listed those verses only to stimulate a debate. I wasn't trying to build an argument at that point in the thread. I was just throwing out some verses that needed to be synthesized and systematized.

Read further in the thread to where David and I reached agreement that there are at least two different kinds of forgiveness.


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## tcalbrecht

BobVigneault said:


> Tom, I listed those verses only to stimulate a debate. I wasn't trying to build an argument at that point in the thread. I was just throwing out some verses that needed to be synthesized and systematized.
> 
> Read further in the thread to where David and I reached agreement that there are at least two different kinds of forgiveness.



With all due respect, if I'm reading this correctly I think you have switched terms, and muddled the situation. I think you are confusing love and forgiveness.

You said:



BobVigneault said:


> So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness only happens in prayer to the Father. No one else has to know.



(Matt 14??, did you mean Luke 17?)

There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness, or “forgiveness in your heart”, or secret forgiveness in the Bible (except insofar as forgiveness is to be sincere and comes from a heart turned to Christ). 

I don’t have to secretly forgive someone who has harmed me without repentance. I can and must love them, which I should, but I must continue to enjoin them to seek forgiveness for their offense. And when they do I must sincerely grant that forgiveness.



> *If we confess our sins*, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)


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## BobVigneault

Oops, I meant Mark 11:25



> And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”


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## BJClark

> There must be a genuine expression of repentance on the part of the offender in order for forgiveness *and* reconciliation to be obtained (the two go together).



I agree, where the two can be obtained, but reconcilitaiton will not always be obtained, and yet we are still told to forgive.


And I don't believe I must continue to bring up their sin against me, to them UNTIL they repent, if I forgive them, then I forgive them, whether they are repentant or not. 

Even if a person sins against me, their sin against me is no ways near as great towards me, as it is against God.

Their repentance is left between them and God, doesn't scripture also tell us something to the effect that when we are nice to those who have sinned against us, it's like heaping hot coals on their heads?

When we forgive, even when they are unrepentant, the burden of guilt stays with them, it doesn't mean we must reconcile with them, it just means we recognize their burden of guilt is ulitmately between them and God, and not against us. 

Is it to me to continually point sin out to a person, if I have confronted them already? Scripture tells us to go one on one first, then take two or three witnesses, then take it to the church, and if they still refuse to repent we are to treat them as a publican and tax collector. So how do we treat sinners? 

Do we treat them rudely, ignoring them, continually telling them what sinners they are or do we show them the Love of Christ by our actions towards them being respectful?

Christ showed forgiveness even before people repented; did He not die on the cross for us before we were even born? Did He not offer us forgiveness before we were ever born? Granted He knew we would be born but He also knew we would need to be forgiven--so He provided the forgiveness before we were born. So it seems to me, forgiveness actually came first.


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## BobVigneault




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## bookslover

"Synonymizing"? Oy.


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## R. Scott Clark

bookslover said:


> You know, with all those kids in that family, I always wondered how many bathrooms they had in that house.



IN the house?

Many depression era farm families didn't have toilets IN the house.

Indoor plumbing was a luxury for lots of folk.

rsc


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## Greg

BobVigneault said:


> It's always fun until someone gets hurt.
> 
> These ivory tower debates and discussions are profitable and fun. Of course when you must quickly turn to the practical application of theology to a real life tragedy, then the fun quickly dissipates.
> 
> Greg, as I have been discussing this issue I have had a very similar situation in the forefront of my attention. There is a fellow who has hurt one of my daughters and our family deeply. This is an ongoing tragedy. I have threatened, in public, to kill him. The police told me I can't do that. I say that to give you an indication of my emotional investment. Even now I HOPE he suffers in some way for what he's done.
> 
> Obviously I can't live with an attitude of wanting to kill this guy. That is sin against our Father and it would consume me. I would be an ineffective husband, dad and witness if I let my anger dominate me. So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness *only happens in prayer* to the Father. No one else has to know. I accept that all sins will be punished in hell or on the cross. I release my need for vengeance to God who is my avenger. This forgiveness frees me to be Christian in my conduct. It is based on trust in God and on His forgiving me, an undeserving sinner. In prayer I have even asked that God be glorified in saving this wretch that has destroyed so much. I don't want this guy to win the lottery but I would delight in seeing God exalted in his salvation.
> 
> On the other hand, the fellow has not repented (he's not a believer) and continues to provoke me. I will not offer him my hand in fellowship, I will not have contact with him. I know my limitations and I won't tempt myself. So in light of the Luke 17 passage I do not owe him forgiveness. I must hold out that he might one day burn with guilt and God will grant him repentance. If and when he does this, then I owe him public forgiveness. I will forgive him his debt because great was the debt my Father forgave me.
> 
> I believe this response would apply to your situation.



Yes it does. Thank you Bob.


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## staythecourse

*Two People, two of Forgiveness'*

Looking at the Scripture involved, the real life (and hyper-evil) examples given and the effects that have results in the spirits who have had the atrocities done to them within the household, the freedom for the believer is found in forgiving the person. 

Almost evidently, this can only happen in a) a deluded mind or b) a miracle (by definition an extra human ability) of God's work in a spirit so heavily tresgressed. This would apply to any transgression but is most marked in the so-evil examples given. (My parenthesis is to show our helplessness in true forgiveness and the need for God's power to do so.)

My Biblical advice is pray and pray and pray and pray until you are reconcilled with God. At that point you will have become like Him: Love.

The man who did the transgression may never experience the befriending between you and God which is a terrible terrible thing.

Once that reconcilliation has happens between you and God, you can then befriend the transgressor which out judgment ever again. That is Freedom.
He may never understand that freedom which again, is a terrible thing.

If you can confess you have forgiven him (with fruits) the transgressor may see God in Man for the first time ever in his life with a miracle in his soul as well. This would happen because of an attraction to the heart of Jesus rather living in the terror of deserved punishment for commiting the infraction against God and Man. He knows He deserved Death.

We are the man.


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## Puritan Sailor

Some clarification from our Confession...

WCF Chapter 15. Of Repentance unto Life.
1. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,a the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.b

a. Zec 12:10; Acts 11:18. • b. Luke 24:47; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21.

2. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for and hates his sins as to turn from them all unto God,a purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.b

a. Psa 51:4; 119:128; Isa 30:22; Jer 31:18-19; Ezek 18:30-31; 36:31; Joel 2:12-13; Amos 5:15; 2 Cor 7:11. • b. 2 Kings 23:25; Psa 119:6, 59, 106; Luke 1:6.

3. Although repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,a which is the act of God's free grace in Christ;b yet is it of such necessity to all sinners that *none may expect pardon without it*.c

a. Ezek 16:61-63; 36:31-32. • b. Hosea 14:2, 4; Rom 3:24; Eph 1:7. • c. Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 17:30-31.

4. As there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation,a so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.b

a. Mat 12:36; Rom 5:12; 6:23. • b. Isa 1:16, 18; 55:7; Rom 8:1.

5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins particularly.a

a. Psa 19:13; Luke 19:8; 1 Tim 1:13, 15.

6. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof,a upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;b *so he that scandalizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended,c who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him*.d

a. Psa 32:5-6; 51:4-5, 7, 9, 14. • b. Prov 28:13; 1 John 1:9. • c. Psa 51 throughout; Josh 7:19; Luke 17:3-4; James 5:16. • d. 2 Cor 2:8.


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> Should we?



Yes -- for if Matthew 18 guides our understanding of our own transgressions, we know that the Judge who paid for our sins requires us to forgives as evidence of our understanding and dependance on His forgiveness of the great debt we accumulated against Him – nothing done to us compares to what we have done to Him.


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## JimfromOhio

Forgiveness is REALLY hard to do. Remember when Jesus asked, _"Which is more difficult, to heal disease or forgive sin?"_ (Mk. 2:9). ? If its hard to forgive, then it is hard to love another because LOVE forgives. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) _"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him". _

*Forgiveness Quotes *
The degree to which I am able and willing to forgive others is a clear indication of the extent to which I have personally experienced God my Father’s forgiveness for me. The corollary to this is that anyone who is not willing to forgive another has certainly not known God’s loving forgiveness. Philipp Keller 

Whenever I see myself before God and realize something of what my blessed Lord has done for me at Calvary, I am ready to forgive anybody anything. I cannot withhold it. I do not even want to withhold it. Martin Lloyd-Jones 

The best testimony that Stephen bore was his last: not when preaching and working miracles, but when he pleaded for his persecutors; for then he most resembled the Lord Jesus in patience, forgiveness and love. Robert C. Chapman 

The wisdom of God has ordained a way for the love of God to deliver us from the wrath of God without compromising the justice of God. John Piper 

God has cast our confessed sins into the depths of the sea, and He's even put a "no fishing" sign over the spot. Dwight L. Moody 

When a Christian shuns fellowship with other Christians, the devil smiles. When he stops studying the Bible, the devil laughs. When he stops praying, the devil shouts for joy. Corrie ten Boom


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## JimfromOhio

I understand what you are saying. Keep in mind that God died for everyone however His atonement is for those who are elected (saved). 

Relationship restoration requires repentance to God FIRST and come to the offending person for the restoration. Forgiveness have already completed, now the both parties are to focus on restoration. It takes same two people to restore a relationship of two people. Not one. Just as God forgave us. But in order to restore our relationship with God from eternal death, we are to repent and acknowledge God and Jesus so that we can have eternal life. God ALREADY FORGAVE..... now He is WAITING for those to REPENT so that the relationship can be RESTORED between two people. God and the Believer.

When a person unwilling to accept God's forgiveness making a choice to hold on to "sin". People choose sin while God choose us. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience.


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## bwsmith

You are discussing forgiveness on two different levels. My answer is that what God does for us in forgiving is not quite the same as how we are to treat those who trespass against us - which was the point of the original post. 

His Holy Spirit works repentance in us so that we do seek His forgiveness – that spirit is the only one that will work with those who have wronged us. 

With respect, I disagree that the servant showed repentance – he never acknowledged his wrong, or asked for forgiveness – he asked, pleaded, for time to make things right.


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## bwsmith

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.



Would you go to them and speak to them of your grievance?


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## Davidius

bwsmith said:


> Would you go to them and speak to them of your grievance?



Yes, I would. But I'm not sure I see where you're going with that question.


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## Davidius

bwsmith said:


> You are discussing forgiveness on two different levels. My answer is that what God does for us in forgiving is not quite the same as how we are to treat those who trespass against us - which was the point of the original post.



Why is our forgiveness supposed to be different than God's? Does the bible teach this? How are we showing people the character of God if our actions are qualitatively other than his? Are you saying that we can keep ourselves from holding grudges against people who have offended us without actually forgiving them? I could accept that sort of distinction, but I wouldn't call it a different kind of forgivenss. I would just say we aren't holding grudges.


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## bwsmith

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Why is our forgiveness supposed to be different than God's? Does the bible teach this? How are we showing people the character of God if our actions are qualitatively other than his? Are you saying that we can keep ourselves from holding grudges against people who have offended us without actually forgiving them? I could accept that sort of distinction, but I wouldn't call it a different kind of forgivenss. I would just say we aren't holding grudges.



We are to imitate God in forgiving others – but only His forgiveness can redeem sinners – or restore warring people to their right minds. It is my humble experience in the church that we do not imitate God.


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## bwsmith

God forgives in such a way that transforms people – our forgiveness may clear the air, no small feat, but it doesn’t redeem a sinner. 

The servants actions showed he was not repentant – when I said make things right – I mean – _repay_ the money – (Matthew 18:26) He did not show the compassion over a minuscule debt he had been shown over an enormous debt – one that he could never have repaid. 

That Christians can forgive is we come to know that no offense we suffer is comparable to the debt we owe God.


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## bwsmith

Thank you -- I understand, and took no offense. I pray I have given none.


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## Davidius

I don't see your distinction. Of course our forgiveness doesn't actually absolve anyone of their sins, but our forgiveness is still similar to God's. When God forgives people, he reconciles them to himself. When we forgive people, we are being reconciled with them. When the Church forgives someone, they are reconciled to the congregation. When someone refuses to repent, they are not forgiven by the congregation - they are excommunicated. The same goes for unrepentant sinners before God. He doesn't forgive those who don't repent - he "excommunicates" them eternally.


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## Davidius

bwsmith said:


> That Christians can forgive is we come to know that no offense we suffer is comparable to the debt we owe God.



Debt? What debt do we owe God? Our salvation is free grace.


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## bwsmith

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Debt? What debt do we owe God? Our salvation is free grace.



We, like the ungrateful servant have rung up an enormous debt for all the sins of commission and omission – and we could not, cannot repay. We “owe” God everything – which He graciously choose to forgive through Christ – yet we (are prone to) demand a pound of flesh from others for their transgressions against us.


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## bwsmith

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> I don't see your distinction. Of course our forgiveness doesn't actually absolve anyone of their sins, but our forgiveness is still similar to God's. When God forgives people, he reconciles them to himself. When we forgive people, we are being reconciled with them. When the Church forgives someone, they are reconciled to the congregation. When someone refuses to repent, they are not forgiven by the congregation - they are excommunicated. The same goes for unrepentant sinners before God. He doesn't forgive those who don't repent - he "excommunicates" them eternally.



I am not sure what the problem is? nt


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## Davidius

bwsmith said:


> I am not sure what the problem is? nt



what does "nt" mean?


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## Puritan Sailor

This verse has already been listed earlier in the thread. I will bring it back up because it is speaks clearly to the question and for some reason keeps being avoided. 


Luke 17:3-4
3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and *if he repents, forgive him*, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, *saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” *(ESV)

Jesus clearly teaches that forgiveness for personal offences is conditioned upon the offenders repentance. Also plainly evident is the ready willingness to forgive on the part of the offended person, even seven times a day, _so long as the offender repents_.


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## bwsmith

nt means no more text.


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> This verse has already been listed earlier in the thread. I will bring it back up because it is speaks clearly to the question and for some reason keeps being avoided.
> 
> 
> Luke 17:3-4
> 3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and *if he repents, forgive him*, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, *saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” *(ESV)
> 
> Jesus clearly teaches that forgiveness for personal offences is conditioned upon the offenders repentance. Also plainly evident is the ready willingness to forgive on the part of the offended person, even seven times a day, _so long as the offender repents_.




Yet in another passage, Luke 15, we see that the Father’s love was poured out before the prodigal said a word – and in Matthew 18:21-22, we see that the parable did not include repentance as a precondition. 

In my humble estimation the church has trouble reconciling differences. 

What is our obligation to the one who does not repent?


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## satz

I apologize if this was already covered in the thread, but I think it is important to distinguish between sins against God and sins against ourselves. Some sins against us are also sins against God because they violate the law of God on how to treat others. But mere personal offenses do not always rise to this level.

For that category of personal offenses how would this verse play out?

Proverbs 19:11 The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression.

If the offense is merely against us, and not against the Lord, why not just pass over it and forget it? Depending on the circumstance it may be needed or wise to confront the brother and work things out, but I don't think repentance is needed to forgive _personal_ offenses.


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## bwsmith

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote: “It's the one offended by the non-sinful occurrence that needs to "get over it".” 

Again – what I am urging is not false piety or political correctness – but forgiveness and reconciliation.


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## bwsmith

PS: 

My husband has graciously explored Luke 17:3 and affirms that indeed, when a sinner repents, we must forgive. However, repentance is not a precondition, as other Bible verses show – Christ on the Cross, Stephen dying under a barrage of stones

When a person wants to repent, it is easy to see my obligation to forgive; when that person does not repent, it’s hard to want to forgive as Christ forgave.


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## bwsmith

1. Theif on the Cross-Are you telling me the theif didn't repent?

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Not only did he rebuke the other criminal (v.40), he acknowledges his sin (v.41a), acknowledged Christ's perfection (v.41b), and acknowledged Christ as King and Lord (v.42). He could only do that by repntance.

2. Stephen-Addressed above.

You said, once again, "to forgive as Christ forgave". This makes me think there should be no disagreement since Christ forgives repentant sinners who've been enabled by grace alone.


Both my husband and I refer to the Lord’s prayer: "Father, forgive them ; for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:33-34 – 

Christ forgave many sinners, the paralytics –for example, repentant and non-


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> 1. Theif on the Cross-Are you telling me the theif didn't repent?
> 
> Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
> 
> Not only did he rebuke the other criminal (v.40), he acknowledges his sin (v.41a), acknowledged Christ's perfection (v.41b), and acknowledged Christ as King and Lord (v.42). He could only do that by repntance.
> 
> 2. Stephen-Addressed above.
> 
> You said, once again, "to forgive as Christ forgave". This makes me think there should be no disagreement since Christ forgives repentant sinners who've been enabled by grace alone.
> 
> 
> Both my husband and I refer to the Lord’s prayer: "Father, forgive them ; for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:33-34 –
> 
> Christ forgave many sinners, the paralytics –for example, repentant and non-



Where did Christ forgive unrepentant paralytics?


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## Herald

> Luke 6:8 8 But He knew what they were thinking, and He said to the man with the withered hand, "Rise and come forward!" And he rose and came forward.





> Luke 11:17 17 But He knew their thoughts, and said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls.



Jesus, although in His humanity, was still omniscient. When Jesus forgives, He knows the condition of the heart. There is no ambiguity. Not so with us. Our understanding of the heart is limited. We can never know with certainty. Should we not forgive even without being asked? I don't believe this action violates the principles of Matthew 18.


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> Yet in another passage, Luke 15, we see that the Father’s love was poured out before the prodigal said a word – and in Matthew 18:21-22, we see that the parable did not include repentance as a precondition.
> 
> In my humble estimation the church has trouble reconciling differences.
> 
> What is our obligation to the one who does not repent?



Our obligation is to confront them lovingly with their offense, and follow the rules of Matthew 18. If they do not repent (assuming it is truly a sin) then there is a much bigger problem involved for the church. The offender is acting like an unbeleiver, and unless he repent, he will eventually be cast out. Notice the example of Zacheus (Luke 19:1-9). When he beleived on Christ, he repented and made restitution for those he offended. That is the proper response of a true beleiver. So it's not just a matter of personal offense. If someone sins against you and doesn't repent, he is also rejecting Christ. It is your duty as a beleiver not only to seek his repentance against you, but also to restore him back to proper fellowship with Christ and his people, and snatch him away from the fire. 

Telling him "I forgive you" when he doesn't even agree he sinned against you or doesn't care, will not move him toward reconciliation. Indeed you have only emboldened him to further sin because there is no consequence to his sin. You can tell him you love him and care about him, but until he repents, his relationship to you is hindered, he has lost your trust, and is in danger of abandoning Christ altogether for his unrepentant life. Faith without works is dead. Forgiveness and reconciliation can only take place when there is mutual desire for reunion and restoration. You are to forgive as Christ forgives, therefore until the offender seeks reconcilation from you, you are not to give it. But as soon as he seeks it and repents, then we are to welcome his fellowship back with open arms immediately. Christ doesn't forgive us until we come to him pleading for forgiveness and seeking to change the way we live (ie. repent). That is our pattern.


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> Our obligation is to confront them lovingly with their offense, and follow the rules of Matthew 18. If they do not repent (assuming it is truly a sin) then there is a much bigger problem involved for the church. The offender is acting like an unbeleiver, and unless he repent, he will eventually be cast out. Notice the example of Zacheus (Luke 19:1-9). When he beleived on Christ, he repented and made restitution for those he offended. That is the proper response of a true beleiver. So it's not just a matter of personal offense. If someone sins against you and doesn't repent, he is also rejecting Christ. It is your duty as a beleiver not only to seek his repentance against you, but also to restore him back to proper fellowship with Christ and his people, and snatch him away from the fire.
> 
> Telling him "I forgive you" when he doesn't even agree he sinned against you or doesn't care, will not move him toward reconciliation. Indeed you have only emboldened him to further sin because there is no consequence to his sin. You can tell him you love him and care about him, but until he repents, his relationship to you is hindered, he has lost your trust, and is in danger of abandoning Christ altogether for his unrepentant life. Faith without works is dead. Forgiveness and reconciliation can only take place when there is mutual desire for reunion and restoration. You are to forgive as Christ forgives, therefore until the offender seeks reconcilation from you, you are not to give it. But as soon as he seeks it and repents, then we are to welcome his fellowship back with open arms immediately. Christ doesn't forgive us until we come to him pleading for forgiveness and seeking to change the way we live (ie. repent). That is our pattern.



I guess, I read Matthew 18:15, in light of the whole chapter – The one who sins against me is God’s business – my (subjective) response is my business as per God’s commands to prevent a root of bitterness from springing up. 

Matt 6:14-15 – "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. 


Matt 18:21-22 – Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 

Luke 17:4 is one wonderful verse that is best read among several – esp. given that the disciples readily confessed that they had not the faith to do it.


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## bwsmith

With respect, you said I ignored the clause – again, I submit 17:3 is one of several teachings that confirm an approach to dealing with sinners – contrite or non-repentant. 

One’s attitude must needs be that of Christ Jesus – who forgave His tormentors and the thief from the Cross. And no, I don’t think that was a universal pass for all into eternity – except for the thief – 

My obligation is to do unto those who harm me what Christ commands – it is not conditional on their repentance – 

Stephen saw Christ – asked God to forgive his murderers, and yet withheld his forgiveness? Do I understand you correctly?


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## turmeric

I don't think we can forgive sinners as Christ does - we have to do it in our finite way. Christ can forgive the "unrepentant" because He can change their hearts. No one who Christ forgives fails to repent.

BW,
To clarify what I think they're saying about Stephen; Stephen did not say "I forgive you." he asked God to forgive them. He had their salvation in mind. His prayer was answered at least in part when Saul of Tarsus repented.


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## Semper Fidelis

turmeric said:


> I don't think we can forgive sinners as Christ does - we have to do it in our finite way. Christ can forgive the "unrepentant" because He can change their hearts. No one who Christ forgives fails to repent.


But it's important to remember this: God regenerates unrepentant sinners but no unrepentant sinner ever embraces Christ to receive forgiveness for their sins. There is always a recognition of sin and a NEED for forgiveness that precedes the belief in the Gospel. God initiates redemption outside of our seeking Him but we seek Him (faith) as the instrument of our reconciliation.



> BW,
> To clarify what I think they're saying about Stephen; Stephen did not say "I forgive you." he asked God to forgive them. He had their salvation in mind. His prayer was answered at least in part when Saul of Tarsus repented.



I also think that it is Christ's intercession for those that crucified Him that led to a mass conversion at Pentecost. Remember, these men at Pentecost were the same men in town for Passover. Peter reminds them that they crucified Christ. That they were cut to the heart and now realized they had put the Son of God to death just a few months earlier must have been one of the scariest moments in history. Can you just sense the despair in the question: "Men and brethren what must we do?!"

REPENT and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> I guess, I read Matthew 18:15, in light of the whole chapter – The one who sins against me is God’s business – my (subjective) response is my business as per God’s commands to prevent a root of bitterness from springing up.


Withholding forgiveness does not mean you grow bitter. Just for the sake of clarity, please define forgiveness as you understand it. Recognizing that someone is quilty of sin against you, and confronting them about it is not bitterness. 



> Matt 6:14-15 – "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
> 
> 
> Matt 18:21-22 – Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Forgiveness is a relational reality. You no longer hold ones transgressions against them, with the purpose or restoring fellowship with them. But forgiveness in Scripture is granted when the offender recognizes and confesses his sin, makes restitution, and repents of it. Only then is there a mutual desire for restoration and fellowship. Then there is a right context for forgiveness. Forgiveness takes place in the context of restoration, not alienation. 

This is the pattern of Christ who in love gave himself for us, to redeem us from all lawlessness an dpurify for himself a people. But we receive absolutely no forgiveness from Christ until we come to him in faith and repent of our sins. The Cross was his act of love while we were still enemies, dealing with the guilt and power of sin. But He doesn't forgive us until we turn to him. Then the transaction takes place, our sins are no longer held against us, and we enjoy restored fellowship with the God we formerly offended. We are children of wrath until we turn to Christ. 

And you cannot divorce sins against you from sins against God. There is always a corporate dimension to sin. God will not forgive the offender unless they repent, and neither should you. The goal of forgiveness is restoration, not to prevent personal bitterness. Choosing not to forgive, _when_ the offender has sought forgiveness is sin because it as well prevents restoration. We desire to restore the offending party back to true fellowship both with you and with God, "our fellowship is with the Father and the Son." God saves those who turn from their wicked ways and seek pardon and restoration from Him. There's no transaction until the sinner repents. Even the thief repented of his idolatry on the cross, and looked to Jesus alone. 



> Luke 17:4 is one wonderful verse that is best read among several – esp. given that the disciples readily confessed that they had not the faith to do it.


Lk. 17:3, "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." 

This is the clear command Jesus gave us. There is a reason it took faith to forgive, because there is more involved in true forgiveness. To interpret the rest of the "forgiveness" texts to say the opposite of Lk 17:3 is simply not a proper way to read Scripture. You are cutting out the heart of this text, "Rebuke him, and if he repents....". To forgive without this dimension is no forgiveness at all. It may sound pious and all but in the end it only leads to alienation, not restoration. The sinner is never admonished to repent because he hasn't lost your fellowship. There is no consequence of his sin to your relationship. And you have essentially told him that you don't care for his restoration anyway because you are not willing to make known to him the reality of sin and the danger he is now in for sinning not only against you but against God. You have given him a pass, only to let him drift into hell, yet thinking he is perfectly fine since you forgave him. 

I suggest that you think through this a little more. We live in a time when people are crying "can't we all just get along?" And the plain truth is, we can't. Sin is real. And unless we tell people that, they will continue to sin against you without consequence, and expect you to respect and tolerate their "personal choices" in life. Withholding forgiveness doesn't mean we grow bitter because we hold them accountable for their actions. Growing bitter is a result of forgetting your place before God, when you make someones sin just about you, rather than about you and God. Witholding forgiveness means we care about the eternal state of their souls, and cannot bear the thought that they should continue in their present course. We should love them too much to forgive them without repentance.


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## bwsmith

Thanks – I’ve thought through it a great deal. And I still believe withholding forgiveness is unbiblical – esp. considering that in most relational situations – not necessarily church discipline issues – but between people, Christians and non.


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## bwsmith

turmeric said:


> I don't think we can forgive sinners as Christ does - we have to do it in our finite way. Christ can forgive the "unrepentant" because He can change their hearts. No one who Christ forgives fails to repent.
> 
> BW,
> To clarify what I think they're saying about Stephen; Stephen did not say "I forgive you." he asked God to forgive them. He had their salvation in mind. His prayer was answered at least in part when Saul of Tarsus repented.



I agree –our forgiveness is finite – and I submit there are plenty of Christians who remain unrepentant – insensitive – to their own sin (Jerry White, Navigators) A couple of years of bad habits are plenty to desensitize a real Christian – I don’t think a human comes to ask God to forgive his ir her debtors until they are at the point of forgiving.


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## bwsmith

I forgive people when I recognize that whatever they have done to me – God has forgiven me far more – 
And yes I have your verses – 

Church discipline may be another matter – but between people, Christians, and non – let go of the grievances – address it – and if it is persistent willful sin – let the church step in. (Something only a precious few churches have the courage to do.) But forgive, for the problems that person who willfully insists on their own way will face greater problems than coming up with a convincing “I’m sorry.” 

God’s given me ample opportunity to try out the practice of forgiveness – it works.


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## JimfromOhio

*This might not be the right forum for me*

By the way, I am just follow basic Calvinism doctrines. NOT hyper-calvinist because I am confused about some of the posters responses to my posts.


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## MrMerlin777

bookslover said:


> You know, with all those kids in that family, I always wondered how many bathrooms they had in that house.




Most likely a privy outside of the house.


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## bwsmith

Thank you -- you very well expressed what I wrote poorly. nt


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> Where did Christ forgive unrepentant paralytics?



In two separate accounts, neither man "repented" of their sins. nt


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## Semper Fidelis

bwsmith said:


> Often withholding forgiveness until a proper repentance is made is the root of all kinds of bitterness, leading to emotional and mental illness – And many people have issues with the departed folks in their lives that revolve around forgiveness.
> 
> My question about determining the acceptability of another's repentance --is simply that -- who decides it's genuine enough to accept?



This discussion is getting circular.

Joshua nor anyone else is speaking about a minimum standard of contrition. There is, nevertheless, a debt incurred when sin occurs.

Forgiveness recognizes not only the debt but the requirement on the person who incurred the debt to make restitution or have the debt forgiven.

We're not talking about jumping through all sorts of hoops here but *there are no BIBLICAL examples of a person being forgiven who has not sought repentance*. Even the Prodigal Son repented to his father. The father's response was much more lavish then it had to be but that's the point.

I've been watching this give and take for a while. You're "preaching from your gut" more than the Word on this one.

Do not confuse harboring resentment and ill will toward someone who wronged you with actual forgiveness. Those are not the same things as forgiving them. All sorts of un-Scriptural ideas have arisen about the nature of sin and repentance because we have a false idea that we can forgive a person who remains unrepentant. We act as if we have the power to grant to a person something God Himself has not yet granted them: namely forgiveness.

Put another way: if somebody steals from you and never makes restitution nor ever repents of that sin, they are NOT released of the debt of that sin. God holds that man accountable. You do not have the power to release a man of the debt of that sin simply by the fiat: "I forgive that man". Does that mean you have to allow a root of bitterness to develop? No. No. No. It's two different things. One has to do with the man's debt before God and you and another has to do with your attitude toward the man and God. You need to distinguish the two more properly.


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## Semper Fidelis

bwsmith said:


> God enables the repentance of those whom HE elected to life – and overlooks plenty of offenses -- not repaying as our sins they deserve. And Christians can give up a claim against another person anytime we choose too – without their concurrence. See how HE taught His disicples to pray.



Precisely, read what He told them to pray:

"Forgive us _our debts_ as we forgive _our debtors_." 

We are to be ready to forgive any man as quickly and as lavishly as God does to all who seek His forgiveness.

Show me a single verse in Scripture that God forgives the unrepentant and your point will be conceded.


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## Semper Fidelis

bwsmith said:


> In two separate accounts, neither man "repented" of their sins. nt



Argument from silence. The Scriptures do not say they were unrepentant. You have to read that into the text. A man who believes in Christ as His Savior CANNOT, by definition, be unrepentant. To claim otherwise is to deny the Gospel itself. What we know about regeneration and conversion in the Scriptures makes this clear:

1. God initiates by _regenerating_ dead sinners.
2. Live sinners see their sin and are horrified by it.
3. Live sinners see Christ and repent of their sin and flee to the Cross.

There is no need for the Cross without recognition of sin. Even if I grant that Christ forgave the man while he was silent, I would conclude from DIDACTIC teaching that Christ's work, by the power of the Holy Spirit, simultaneously regenerated and converted the man.


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## bwsmith

I checked with the Peacemaker ministry – to refresh my understanding before digging a deeper hole

When I am offended – and can not overlook the offense – I go to the person (sometimes a Christian) if they do not “repent” – and alas some Christians have assured me what they did was not a sin, and I need to get over my hurt – others readily ask for forgiveness for hurting me – and more than a few folks –Christians and non – aren’t sure what to do – and what they do is not changing their conduct. 

If it is not a matter for church discipline – and too serious for me to just overlook – what do I do? The danger of developing a root of bitterness is real – esp. when a Christian says, “ I didn’t mean anything by what I did.” 
Peacemakers suggests two stages to forgiveness
1. I adopt, supernaturally, an attitude of forgiveness to that person. By God’s grace I take no action against the person – and therefor, my attitude results in concrete actions. It is unconditional, and between me and God. 

2. When the person actually says he or she was wrong, I can and must forgive – as many times as they repent. 

Because # 2 may not come in my lifetime, by God’s grace, I live in the first stage, and recommend it.


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## bwsmith

PeaceMakers – it is an international ministry – to assist the church make and keep the peace – It’s founder is a PCA elder. 

It is a two-stage process for those who will not admit faults – 

The first stage is anchored in Mark 11:25-26; Luke 6:26-31; and Acts 7:60.

I am not ignoring Scripture by living in attitude of forgiveness, until repentance comes –


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## Romans922

You know, all of this forgiving people without their repentance has no real Scriptural warrant. It seems as though most who hold this view are somewhat seeker-sensitive, not wanting to offend anyone, not wanting to call people to repentance, and not wanting to invoke church discipline. Forgiving without repentance is only showing them through our actions that they need not repent for they have forgiveness already. Everything is already ok, so why even repent. There is no need. O that we would be able to forgive sins of all who sin against us and others, but there is no where in Scripture where there is a clear example of forgiving someone who has not repented. Nor is it commanded. It is the other way around, repent and then forgiveness comes. And we should desire with all of our being to forgive just as Our Father in heaven has forgiven us.


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> You know, all of this forgiving people without their repentance has no real Scriptural warrant. It seems as though most who hold this view are somewhat seeker-sensitive, not wanting to offend anyone, not wanting to call people to repentance, and not wanting to invoke church discipline. Forgiving without repentance is only showing them through our actions that they need not repent for they have forgiveness already. Everything is already ok, so why even repent. There is no need. O that we would be able to forgive sins of all who sin against us and others, but there is no where in Scripture where there is a clear example of forgiving someone who has not repented. Nor is it commanded. It is the other way around, repent and then forgiveness comes. And we should desire with all of our being to forgive just as Our Father in heaven has forgiven us.



Again – when offended go to the person – if no repentance, make an agreement with GOD as per Mark 11 – for one’s own mental and emotional and spiritual health – and perhaps make a smoother path for the one who has offended to come to his or her senses.


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## bwsmith

No sin in a person's life is the fault of Scripture -- Scripture only convicts us of it -- and dealing with offenses – unforgiveness – is often at the root. See the vignette of the brothers, shortly after the Fall. Genesis 4:7. 

That’s why a two step approach that Peacemakers recommends is helpful


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## Romans922

bwsmith said:


> Again – when offended go to the person – if no repentance, make an agreement with GOD as per Mark 11 – for one’s own mental and emotional and spiritual health – and perhaps make a smoother path for the one who has offended to come to his or her senses.



I don't see where an agreement with God is in Mark 11; verse 25 says, "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Verse 26 does not exist (it was added probably by copyists and so not in my bible or in any good bible).

Why are we forgiving? Because as context shows, so that we can have faith that God will forgive us. But is this a mere forgiving with no repenting? Or making a promise with God? No. Scripture interprets Scripture. We see many places that when people repent we are to forgive. So when it says here we are to merely forgive, does it mean there is no repenting; certainly not. Is this verse here so we can feel great about ourselves and not feel angst over our brother/sister? No, it is here to show that when someone repents, you better forgive them, and when you do then you will know that I (God) will forgive you too (just as the Lord's Prayer states).


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## Romans922

I don't see how Genesis 4:7 helps the conversation, it only states that Cain shouldn't let HIS sin overtake him (Which it did). That is God's warning to us. If you hold bitterness towards someone because they sinned against you, then you better repent of your sin (and not worry so much about their sin against you). When you come and have repented before God and the other person of your bitterness towards them, then you can hope that they come to you and repent, so that you may forgive them (as Scripture teaches). Peacemakers seems to skip the step of acknowledging your own sin first; not having a plank of wood in your own eye when your brother/sister has a speck.

Interesting Parallel and off topic - 

Genesis 4:7 - "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

Genesis 3:16 - "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> I don't see where an agreement with God is in Mark 11; verse 25 says, "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Verse 26 does not exist (it was added probably by copyists and so not in my bible or in any good bible).
> 
> Why are we forgiving? Because as context shows, so that we can have faith that God will forgive us. But is this a mere forgiving with no repenting? Or making a promise with God? No. Scripture interprets Scripture. We see many places that when people repent we are to forgive. So when it says here we are to merely forgive, does it mean there is no repenting; certainly not. Is this verse here so we can feel great about ourselves and not feel angst over our brother/sister? No, it is here to show that when someone repents, you better forgive them, and when you do then you will know that I (God) will forgive you too (just as the Lord's Prayer states).




Again – forgiveness is a choice – one which we may freely extend to our debtors, _particularly those *whose debt we have addressed*_, and been rebuffed. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15; Matthew 18:23-35; Luke 6:37; Ephesians 4:32 ; Colossians 3:13; James 2:13) We may or may not tell them – but we do tell God, and agree that the ball is in His court, to work repentance in the heart of the offending party. Maintaining a forgiving spirit to our debtors also restores our eyesight (Matthew 7:3-5)

Restoration may be possible only when the debtor pays up.


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## Romans922

bwsmith said:


> Again – forgiveness is a choice – one which we may freely extend to our debtors, _particularly those *whose debt we have addressed*_, and been rebuffed. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15; Matthew 18:23-35; Luke 6:37; Ephesians 4:32 ; Colossians 3:13; James 2:13) We may or may not tell them – but we do tell God, and agree that the ball is in His court, to work repentance in the heart of the offending party. Maintaining a forgiving spirit to our debtors also restores our eyesight (Matthew 7:3-5)
> 
> Restoration may be possible only when the debtor pays up.




And so you are saying that we don't actually forgive, but we just have a forgiving spirit?


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> I don't see how Genesis 4:7 helps the conversation, it only states that Cain shouldn't let HIS sin overtake him (Which it did). That is God's warning to us. If you hold bitterness towards someone because they sinned against you, then you better repent of your sin (and not worry so much about their sin against you). When you come and have repented before God and the other person of your bitterness towards them, then you can hope that they come to you and repent, so that you may forgive them (as Scripture teaches). Peacemakers seems to skip the step of acknowledging your own sin first; not having a plank of wood in your own eye when your brother/sister has a speck.
> 
> Interesting Parallel and off topic -
> 
> Genesis 4:7 - "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
> 
> Genesis 3:16 - "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."




Yet requiring repentance is the theme of this thread for many posters. 

Where do find Peacemakers as skipping the step of acknowledging one’s own sin – I haven’t seen that in any of their material.


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## Romans922

bwsmith said:


> Yet requiring repentance is the theme of this thread for many posters.
> 
> Where do find Peacemakers as skipping the step of acknowledging one’s own sin – I haven’t seen that in any of their material.



It is a logical deduction of what you have said Peacemakers is about.

Saying that we should forgive people their sins even if they don't repent, so that we won't harbor bitterness or some other emotion toward them is saying exactly that. It is saying, let us not deal with our sin before dealing with the other persons. You need to seek repentance for your bitterness from God and the person you harbor the bitterness towards. Your bitterness doesn't go away from you forgiving them, it goes away when you repent and turn from your sin.


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## bwsmith

Thank you! this is perfect! Well, practically. nt


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> It is a logical deduction of what you have said Peacemakers is about.
> 
> Saying that we should forgive people their sins even if they don't repent, so that we won't harbor bitterness or some other emotion toward them is saying exactly that. It is saying, let us not deal with our sin before dealing with the other persons. You need to seek repentance for your bitterness from God and the person you harbor the bitterness towards. Your bitterness doesn't go away from you forgiving them, it goes away when you repent and turn from your sin.



I apologize for even suggesting that about Peacemakers teaches that – they came into being and exist because of the tragic record much of the church has in dealing with conflict. 
Again – I am sorry I am not making myself clear – the first stage of forgiveness is between me and God – the second is granting restoration should the person repent. In either case, forgiving another's debts as Christ forgave mine is the principle.


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> And so you are saying that we don't actually forgive, but we just have a forgiving spirit?



No -- I mean I tell God I forgive and will not keep an account of the wrong, waiting for an "I'm sorry," after I have gone to the person and explained my grievance -- and gotten no response -


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> No -- I mean I tell God I forgive and will not keep an account of the wrong, waiting for an "I'm sorry," after I have gone to the person and explained my grievance -- and gotten no response -



How can you "wait for an 'I'm sorry'" if you will not keep an account of the wrong? Waiting for an apology seems like you are in fact still keeping an account.


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> How can you "wait for an 'I'm sorry'" if you will not keep an account of the wrong? Waiting for an apology seems like you are in fact still keeping an account.



Indeed it is. That is why I forgive from the heart as God enables -- if going to the person yields no repentance.


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## bwsmith

*Citing another poster's better written views*



SemperFideles said:


> Argument from silence. The Scriptures do not say they were unrepentant. You have to read that into the text. A man who believes in Christ as His Savior CANNOT, by definition, be unrepentant. To claim otherwise is to deny the Gospel itself. What we know about regeneration and conversion in the Scriptures makes this clear:
> 
> 1. God initiates by _regenerating_ dead sinners.
> 2. Live sinners see their sin and are horrified by it.
> 3. Live sinners see Christ and repent of their sin and flee to the Cross.
> 
> There is no need for the Cross without recognition of sin. Even if I grant that Christ forgave the man while he was silent, I would conclude from DIDACTIC teaching that Christ's work, by the power of the Holy Spirit, simultaneously regenerated and converted the man.



You are right – Scripture does not say that the men confessed their sins to Christ, yet He forgave them – 

The two issues of which I speak are one the profound and amazing truth that God saved (some of) and He expects us to forgive as He forgave us in Christ. Another poster BobVigneault, summed up my modest thoughts on what to do when a person offends – so I have simply repeated his comments: 



BobVigneault said:


> Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
> 
> Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
> 
> Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”





BobVigneault said:


> God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
> 
> From the cross Christ prayed, 'forgive them, they know not what they are doing'.
> 
> We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.
> 
> I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.





BobVigneault said:


> Jesus set the example as he prayed from the cross, Stephen followed that example in Acts 7:59
> 
> 
> Stephen was not looking at an OPTION to forgive he was carrying out the command to forgive.
> 
> Forgiveness or our neighbor (image of God) is a CHOICE based on God's forgiveness of his elect. There is no need for a qualifier.





BobVigneault said:


> David, the Luke 17 passage is an excellent verse to bolster the argument for making forgiveness contingent on repentance. That's the one I would use. But now you must balance it against Mark 11:25
> 
> Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?





BobVigneault said:


> I think you've hit the answer square David. The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
> 
> Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
> 
> This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
> 
> Good night David.


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## bwsmith

*Two steps are not going in a circle*



SemperFideles said:


> This discussion is getting circular.
> 
> Joshua nor anyone else is speaking about a minimum standard of contrition. There is, nevertheless, a debt incurred when sin occurs.
> 
> Forgiveness recognizes not only the debt but the requirement on the person who incurred the debt to make restitution or have the debt forgiven.
> 
> We're not talking about jumping through all sorts of hoops here but *there are no BIBLICAL examples of a person being forgiven who has not sought repentance*. Even the Prodigal Son repented to his father. The father's response was much more lavish then it had to be but that's the point.
> 
> I've been watching this give and take for a while. You're "preaching from your gut" more than the Word on this one.
> 
> Do not confuse harboring resentment and ill will toward someone who wronged you with actual forgiveness. Those are not the same things as forgiving them. All sorts of un-Scriptural ideas have arisen about the nature of sin and repentance because we have a false idea that we can forgive a person who remains unrepentant. We act as if we have the power to grant to a person something God Himself has not yet granted them: namely forgiveness.
> 
> Put another way: if somebody steals from you and never makes restitution nor ever repents of that sin, they are NOT released of the debt of that sin. God holds that man accountable. You do not have the power to release a man of the debt of that sin simply by the fiat: "I forgive that man". Does that mean you have to allow a root of bitterness to develop? No. No. No. It's two different things. One has to do with the man's debt before God and you and another has to do with your attitude toward the man and God. You need to distinguish the two more properly.



“Circular” may not describe this discussion – and while I believe passionately that in personal relationships forgiving from the heart – I don’t think preaching from the gut is quite accurate – I am writing from the position of having seen way too many broken relationships in the church -- and heard the comments of those who watch. 

Unforgiveness is the root of much bitterness in the church, as well as the cause of much depression, and other forms of unhealthy habits. Relinquishing to God, forgiving, – an unresolved offense, though having addressed the grievance personally– is one step; restoring a relationship because the offended repents hopefully is the second – it often never happens – 

BobVigneault has better expressed what I was unable to: 
God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

From the cross Christ prayed, 'forgive them, they know not what they are doing'. 

We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.

I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.​
I do not speak of exonerating a heinous crime – although some are able to do that by God’s grace, alone. If a person breaks man’s law they should suffer the consequences –


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## Puritan Sailor

Some more verses illustrating the principle for the necessity of repentance for forgiveness.

Lev. 5:17
"If anyone sins, doing any of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, though he did not know it, then realizes his guilt, he shall bear his iniquity. 18He shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for the mistake that he made unintentionally, and he shall be forgiven. 19It is a guilt offering; he has indeed incurred guilt before[g] the LORD." 

Lev 6:1
1[a] The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the LORD by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor 3or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely--in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby-- 4 *if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took* by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found 5or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt. 6And he shall bring to the priest as his compensation to the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent for a guilt offering. 7And *the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven *for any of the things that one may do and thereby become guilty." 

1 Kings 8
33 "When your people Israel are defeated before the enemy because they have sinned against you, and *if they turn again to you and acknowledge your name and pray and plead with you in this house, 34then hear in heaven and forgive the sin of your people Israel* and bring them again to the land that you gave to their fathers. 35 "When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, if they pray toward this place and acknowledge your name and turn from their sin, when you afflict them, 36then hear in heaven and forgive the sin of your servants, your people Israel, when you teach them the good way in which they should walk, and grant rain upon your land, which you have given to your people as an inheritance. 

46"If they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47yet *if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you* in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,' 48*if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart *in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49*then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you,*

Col 3
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; *as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive*. 14And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 
* Note the controlling assumption of Paul here, those who forgive each other are those seeking to do verse 12. Paul has other words for those who do not repent, like handing them over to Satan.... 
The Lord doesn't forgive without repentence. So if we forgive without repentence we are not forgiving as the Lord has forgiven us.


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## bwsmith

How have you found this approach works of a day-today basis? Nt


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.


Love and forgiveness are not the same thing. Jesus out of love for us died on the cross. BUT Jesus does not forgive us until we turn to Him in faith and repentance. This is what the gospel is all about. Forgiveness is _offered_ to those who will come. 



> I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.



*Luke 17:3-4
3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." *


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> Love and forgiveness are not the same thing. Jesus out of love for us died on the cross. BUT Jesus does not forgive us until we turn to Him in faith and repentance. This is what the gospel is all about. Forgiveness is _offered_ to those who will come.


I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.


> *Luke 17:3-4
> 3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." *



Again, I was citing Mr. Vigneault – and I believe that Christ forgave me – dying for me – while I was still a sinner – and He alone enables repentance. Luke 17:3-4 is one verse that teaches us how to relate to those who sin, repent, sin, and repent – that is not the only thing the Lord said about relating to those who offend us. 


BobVigneault said:


> Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
> 
> Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
> 
> Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”


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## bwsmith

SemperFideles said:


> Precisely, read what He told them to pray:
> 
> "Forgive us _our debts_ as we forgive _our debtors_."
> 
> We are to be ready to forgive any man as quickly and as lavishly as God does to all who seek His forgiveness.
> 
> Show me a single verse in Scripture that God forgives the unrepentant and your point will be conceded.



What God did/does/ and will do, and what He requires of me, whom He saved while I was lost in sin, unrepentant, and hopeless – it is the model and method by which I can live at peace with all men, trusting God to work repentance in the hearts of those who have offended me. 

With respect, the Lord did not say, "be ready to forgive," He said, “forgive.” (As a part of going to the person, and showing them their fault – 

Matt 6:14-15 -- "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> Indeed it is. That is why I forgive from the heart as God enables -- if going to the person yields no repentance.


If you are still keeping an account then you have not forgiven them.


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> If you are still keeping an account then you have not forgiven them.



Yes, that's right -- whoever "you" is -- and those who resist giving up their offense to God until the offender repents are unwise.


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## Puritan Sailor

bwsmith said:


> No -- I mean I tell God I forgive and will not keep an account of the wrong, waiting for an "I'm sorry," after I have gone to the person and explained my grievance -- and gotten no response -



Ok. Let's try this again. You said that you will not keep an account of the wrong. But you also said yo uwill wait for an "I'm sorry." So which is it? You can't have both. If you are in fact waiting for an "I'm sorry" then you are still keeping an account and therefore you have not forgiven them. To forgive means you no longer keep an account of that sin.


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## bwsmith

Puritan Sailor said:


> Ok. Let's try this again. You said that you will not keep an account of the wrong. But you also said yo uwill wait for an "I'm sorry." So which is it? You can't have both. If you are in fact waiting for an "I'm sorry" then you are still keeping an account and therefore you have not forgiven them. To forgive means you no longer keep an account of that sin.




I am content to rest on what I have posted. nt


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## Romans922

Or you are content to not deal with the problem of your argument.


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## bwsmith

Romans922 said:


> Or you are content to not deal with the problem of your argument.



I am distressed at my inability to convey that forgiving is commanded -- even if repentance is not yet a reality:
Again: 

The two issues of which I speak are one the profound and amazing truth that God saved (some of) us and He expects us to forgive as He forgave us in Christ. 

Another poster BobVigneault, summed up my modest thoughts on what to do when a person offends – so I have simply repeated his comments: 



BobVigneault said:


> Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
> 
> Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
> 
> Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, *I will* repay, says the Lord.”





BobVigneault said:


> God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
> 
> From the cross Christ prayed, 'forgive them, they know not what they are doing'.
> 
> We are not God. If someone slaps us on the cheek, we offer the other. If someone demands our jacket, we give them our shirt. We are to pray for our enemies. These things all go against the norm. We love because he first loved us, we forgive because he first forgave us. These are the marks of a Christian.
> 
> I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.





BobVigneault said:


> Jesus set the example as he prayed from the cross, Stephen followed that example in Acts 7:59
> 
> 
> Stephen was not looking at an OPTION to forgive he was carrying out the command to forgive.
> 
> Forgiveness or our neighbor (image of God) is a CHOICE based on God's forgiveness of his elect. There is no need for a qualifier.





BobVigneault said:


> David, the Luke 17 passage is an excellent verse to bolster the argument for making forgiveness contingent on repentance. That's the one I would use. But now you must balance it against Mark 11:25
> 
> Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?





BobVigneault said:


> I think you've hit the answer square David. The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
> 
> Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
> 
> This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
> 
> Good night David.


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## bwsmith

Something Peacemakers wrote that might clarify 
*Living out Matthew 18*

When Christians think about talking to someone else about a conflict, one of the first verses that comes to mind is Matthew 18:15: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you." If this verse is read in isolation, it seems to teach that we must always use direct confrontation to force others to admit they have sinned. If the verse is read in context, however, we see that Jesus had something much more flexible and beneficial in mind than simply standing toe to toe with others and describing their sins.

Just before this passage, we find Jesus' wonderful metaphor of a loving shepherd who goes to look for a wandering sheep and then rejoices when it is found (Matt. 18:12-14). Thus, Matthew 18:15 is introduced with a theme of restoration, not condemnation. Jesus repeats this theme just after telling us to "go and show him his fault" by adding, "If he listens to you, you have won your brother over." And then he hits the restoration theme a third time in verses 21-35, where he uses the parable of the unmerciful servant to remind us to be as merciful and forgiving to others as God is to us (Matt. 18:21-35).

Taken from The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict
by Ken Sande, Updated Edition (Grand Rapids, Baker Books, 2003) pp. 144​


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## bwsmith

You have laid down principles -- how do they work in relationships you have restored.


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## bwsmith

No -- I am not ignoring any of the posts  

I am again suggesting that maintaining peace is often a two-step process -- after addressing the grievance. Your position assumes that the offended party is right. That is often not the case in basic living situations - the ones I have consistently referenced. 

Faith and repentance may well be two sides of the coin – as some suggested earlier – but that is not always the same case even among Christians – and non-Christians, for sure.


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## bwsmith

When you go back and read about the fellow lowered down, and the man at Bethesda, they wanted to be healed of their maladies; Christ did so, but in such a way that proved His authority to forgive sins – He came back to the man at Bethesda and in 5:14 tells though he is well –not redeemed – stop sinning! (John 5:14) 

He grants the repentance –


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## bwsmith

How often have you practiced these principles, and to what end have you seen them working?


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## bwsmith

I am not avoiding dealing with them -- I am telling you again that forbearance, forgiveness between the offended party and God is the first step – in God’s time, HE may work repentance in the heart of the one who offended. Until He does, the one who is offended does well to remember the debt he (or she) owes God. 

When it comes to reconciling personal conflicts, faith and repentance are not two side of one coin!


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## Semper Fidelis

bwsmith,

Let me suggest something to you.

Instead of trying to understand what the _Biblical_ foundation of repentance and forgiveness are and what the Word of God have to say, I keep noticing that you want to keep falling back to a Peacemakers model.

It seems whenever a Biblical principle is laid out that, in itself, demands a specific understanding, you keep wanting to force each principle into a Peacemakers schema.

Honestly, these interactions convince me that you really don't have a good appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints. You want to compress everything at times and neglect the real distinguishing characteristic between what God initiates in a human heart and how a heart responds.

You further lack a solid appreciation for the real consequences of sin and in some ways you undermine the necessity of Christ's work to atone for sin by divorcing the instrument that one procures forgiveness from forgiveness itself. They can be distinguished but never separated.

Henceforth, in this discussion, I really must insist that you stick to Scripture and not refer to a Peacemaker schema. If your case is going to be made here then it needs to be made on the basis of the Word of God. Otherwise, discussions where Joshua (and others) try to convince you from Scripture only to have it processed through a Peacemaker grid are doomed to endless circles. 

This thread is shockingly long for some principles that are really quite fundamental. I'm telling you this not to upbraid you or discourage you in your walk but to starkly notify you that I'm concerned about some of your basic assumptions and how they've been affected by a source external to Scripture.


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## bwsmith

Greg said:


> About two years ago a close family member of mine (who is not a Christian) did something that involved one of my daughters…she was 5 years old at the time. My daughter came and told my wife and I about the incident. To this day, not only is this person unrepentant, but still claims that nothing ever happened. This family member insists that what our daughter told us is false.
> 
> To be very honest, even after two years I am still struggling with forgiving this person. How can you forgive someone who to this day claims that their offense is a lie?
> 
> Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing?
> 
> Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?



I can understand! We have coped with a brutal murder in our family – We told him what we believed, then have purposed to forgive, though the murderer expressed no remorse at the time.

A dear friend was violated by a relative when she was tiny – and the stance her family took of supporting her, believing her, helped her so much! Eschewing contact affirms your faith in your child, and will do much in her healing and recovery – Asking God to forgive, bring him to his senses for you know one day Christ will confront this man, and “jog” his memory – (Matt 25:41-46) – may he repent today!


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## bwsmith

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Yes, I would. But I'm not sure I see where you're going with that question.



Formerly you wrote: It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.​
Where I am going is that in the church, and out, God establishes and/or permits relationships that we need to tend, even if they are painful -- and it isn't so simple as refusing to be friends.


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## bwsmith

SemperFideles said:


> bwsmith,
> 
> Let me suggest something to you.
> 
> Instead of trying to understand what the _Biblical_ foundation of repentance and forgiveness are and what the Word of God have to say, I keep noticing that you want to keep falling back to a Peacemakers model.
> 
> It seems whenever a Biblical principle is laid out that, in itself, demands a specific understanding, you keep wanting to force each principle into a Peacemakers schema.
> 
> Honestly, these interactions convince me that you really don't have a good appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints. You want to compress everything at times and neglect the real distinguishing characteristic between what God initiates in a human heart and how a heart responds.
> 
> You further lack a solid appreciation for the real consequences of sin and in some ways you undermine the necessity of Christ's work to atone for sin by divorcing the instrument that one procures forgiveness from forgiveness itself. They can be distinguished but never separated.
> 
> Henceforth, in this discussion, I really must insist that you stick to Scripture and not refer to a Peacemaker schema. If your case is going to be made here then it needs to be made on the basis of the Word of God. Otherwise, discussions where Joshua (and others) try to convince you from Scripture only to have it processed through a Peacemaker grid are doomed to endless circles.
> 
> This thread is shockingly long for some principles that are really quite fundamental. I'm telling you this not to upbraid you or discourage you in your walk but to starkly notify you that I'm concerned about some of your basic assumptions and how they've been affected by a source external to Scripture.





It has been a shockingly long thread – and it’s length seems to reveal a tension between doctrine and practice . And perhaps you have not been able to carefully read what I have written? 
I am sorry that you doubt my appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints. 

I have stuck to Scripture – and more than once cited BobVigneault’s arguments as well reflecting my own. 

The biblical basis for forgiving ( in non-church discipline matters) in the absence of a repentance is the knowledge of how great our debt to God. (Matthew 18 – the whole chapter) I have also cited Christ’s commands to forgive: Matthew 6:12-14; 11:25; Luke 11:4 – and I rely on Matthew Henry’s commentary: Luke 11:1-13
We forgive our debtors, but in particular, "We profess to forgive every one that is indebted to us, without exception. We so forgive our debtors as not to bear malice or ill-will to any, but true love to all, without any exception whatsoever." (from Matthew Henry's Commentary ) 

Luke 17:3 – is an important verse – for its context addresses how to relate to one who continually sins and repents – Luke 17:1-10
“Note, Christians should be of a forgiving spirit, willing to make the best of every body, and to make all about them easy; forward to extenuate faults, and not to aggravate them; and they should contrive as much to show that they have forgiven an injury as others to show that they resent it.” (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: .)

I also rely upon Charles Spurgeon’s article, The Peacemaker – and a discussion of Luke 23:34 by John Calvin. And as I cited, I checked each reply with my husband who is an elder in a PCA church, and works on many projects for Christian conciliation.


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## bwsmith

PS. I have run all my responses by my husband, who is an elder in the PCA.


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## Semper Fidelis

My point stands. I'm not going to argue with you about the standard here. It may be that you're having difficulty articulating and your husband is welcome to interact here if he so desires.

I also see nothing in what Bob has said as being incompatible with what I'm insisting upon here.

There is a jumping back and forth between understanding the doctrines of Grace and then utilizing historical narrative in a strained manner to support a generic point about "attitudes of forgiveness."

It appears to me as I peer in every now and again that you cannot appreciate that Joshua is granting that we are not to hold grudges but you want to consistently force that into a "forgiveness without repentance" scheme based upon a parachurch ministry's teaching and then supporting it, not with didactic passages, but with narratives and arguments from silence.

Consider this from the Westminster Larger Catechism:


> Q. 153. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse due to us by reason of the transgression of the law?
> 
> A. That we may escape the wrath and curse of God due to us by reason of the transgression of the law, he requireth of us repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ,990 and the diligent use of the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation.991



On the petition: "Forgive us our debts...":


> Q. 194. What do we pray for in the fifth petition?
> A. In the fifth petition, (which is, Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors,1265) acknowledging, that we and all others are guilty both of original and actual sin, and thereby become debtors to the justice of God; and that neither we, nor any other creature, can make the least satisfaction for that debt:1266 we pray for ourselves and others, that God of his free grace would, through the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, apprehended and applied by faith, acquit us both from the guilt and punishment of sin,1267 accept us in his Beloved;1268 continue his favour and grace to us,1269 pardon our daily failings,1270 and fill us with peace and joy, in giving us daily more and more assurance of forgiveness;1271 which we are the rather emboldened to ask, and encouraged to expect, when we have this testimony in ourselves, that we from the heart forgive others their offenses.1272



In other words, it is perfectly acceptable to pray _for the forgiveness_ of others but they _are not forgiven_ unless they repent and receive forgiveness of sins from God whom they have offended.

You may find the prooftexts for these ideas by visiting http://www.temeculaopc.org/wlc.htm


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## bwsmith

Dear Sir,
You have not paid attention to what I actually said, therefore I will not continue this conversation.


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## bwsmith

I haven’t said that – I have said that forgiveness must needs be our response on personal conflicts that are not quickly resolved – it is the first step – what we purpose before God – how we address our grievance with those who cannot or do not repent is another matter. 

Christ healed these men, to demonstrate His Authority to forgive sins –


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## bwsmith

Actually, I have – and I am going to keep repeating it: 

The biblical basis for forgiving ( in non-church discipline matters) in the absence of a repentance is 
1) the knowledge of how great our debt to God. (Matthew 18 – the whole chapter) 
2) I have also cited Christ’s commands to forgive: Matthew 6:12-14; 11:25; Luke 11:4 –
in none of these does HE say “Be willing” – He says do it. 
and I rely on Matthew Henry’s commentary on Luke 11:1-13_We forgive our debtors, but in particular, "We profess to forgive every one that is indebted to us, without exception. We so forgive our debtors as not to bear malice or ill-will to any, but true love to all, without any exception whatsoever." (from Matthew Henry's Commentary ) _​
3) Luke 17:3 – is an important verse – for its context addresses how to relate to one who continually sins and repents – Luke 17:1-10_“Note, Christians should be of a forgiving spirit, willing to make the best of every body, and to make all about them easy; forward to extenuate faults, and not to aggravate them; and they should contrive as much to show that they have forgiven an injury as others to show that they resent it.” (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible .)_​
“Our forgiving others will not procure forgiveness for ourselves; but our not forgiving others proves that we ourselves are not forgiven.” (John Owen From _A Puritan Golden Treasury_, Puritan Paperbacks, I.D.E. Thomas, The Banner of Truth Trust.) 

“We need not climb into heaven to see whether our sins are forgiven; let us look into our hearts, and see if we can forgive others. If we can, we need not doubt but God has forgiven us” (Thomas Watson)


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## satz

When a man ‘sins’ there can be two kinds of sins. Sins against God, and sins against man. The majority of sins against man are also sins against God because they are in violation of God’s law. Hence David after sinning against both Bathsheba and her husband still could say he had sinned against God only (Ps 51:4). For sins of this nature the question ‘Should we forgive those who do not repent’ breaks down, as it is not our business to forgive in the first place. These sins are properly against God and only he can truly offer forgiveness, and it is toward him that repentance should be directed.

However there are another category of ‘sins’ that are against man alone and these are identified by the bible as being the ‘smallest matters’ of life (1 Cor 6:1-3). Sins against God cannot be identified as small matters, so we understand that there exist offences between men that do not rise to the level of sins against God. It is in this category of offenses, that I think there is room for forgiveness without repentance. Since these are small matters and have not risen to the level of offending God, it is better to simply let ourselves be offended rather than confront a brother or sister (1 Cor 6:7). I think this is another application for Proverbs 19:11, these are transgressions that are against us and not God, so it is glorious to simply pass over, ignore them and forget them. There is no reason to think we are so important that we need to extract an apology from the other party before the matter can be settled. 

Remember, this does not apply to sins that are against God, even if those sins are also secondarily against us as well. But I think some of the discussion thus far has mixed up the two categories of sins, which has resulted in some confusion.


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## bwsmith

“Thus, it follows that who in the parable is condemned? The man who didn't forgive his fellow servant who showed forth repentance. God has said that we are to forgive as He forgave us. And how's that? Grace, no doubt! And yet, we're not forgiven until we repent. I would never deny that it's the work of the Holy Spirit; I'm not sure where it was implied that I'd believe something other than that.” 

I have cited the whole of Matthew as a basis for a conversation I would have with GOD about dealing with an unrepentant offender. See please Matt 18:21-22 . My willingness before GOD to forgive the debt owed me flows from remembering what I owe God. 

I have cited Christ’s commands to forgive – so when speaking to Him about the one who offends, I will say Yes to Him – and trust Him to work repentance.


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## Semper Fidelis

Well, with those strange twists and turns, I'm closing this thread.

I would just mention to Mark (satz): There is no such thing as a _sin_ that is not against God. We cannot sin against another man without sinning against God.

A man might be offended by what we do even if we have not sinned against him.

When I spank my child, provided I did it within proper bounds and I did not sin in anger, then I do not sin against my child. He might be angry that I'm spanking him but I have not sinned.

Likewise, there are many situations where brothers and sisters in the Church do things that offend us, even when they have not sinned. Many of those issues might be simple courtesies or manners of speech that unintentionally offended. We are called to cover up such things in love and not be quickly offended. Again, these are not sins. Christ didn't have to die on the Cross to cover over the fact that some guy is chewing with his mouth open and I'm offended.

But covering over a slight in love is not the same as forgiveness.

Even my child understands the answer to this question:
What is sin?

Sin is any want of conformity or trangression of the Law of God.

Any time a person sins they have either done something God commanded they not do or did not do something He commanded them to. We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves.

If we are sinned against, we do not hold the keys of judgment and we are commanded to pray for forgiveness but true forgiveness always demands repentance. Full stop. That is in our Confession. If people want to claim otherwise then they need to show how the Confession needs to be amended.

I'm simply not interested in squishy language here. There's a reason why the language is relatively precise to help us understand that sin is not just something that is overlooked or therapeutically salved by our attitude toward it. Though we do not have to let another's unrepentant sin have dominion over us, neither can we un-confessionally proclaim that another stands forgiven of a sin that has not been covered with the blood of Christ. A heart that does not repent of sin is not a heart that is tender to the Gospel

This is not brain surgery. I'm ending a long thread on a teaching that is very well defined in Reformed Confessions and Scripture.


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