# Removing an Exception--Or, I was Wrong (Again)



## kevin.carroll (Apr 23, 2005)

Last year when the Passion of the Christ came out I went and saw it with a clear conscience. I had been in conversation with some about whether or not the idea violated the Second Commandment.

I read, with interest, the archived exchange on the Board over this very issue and recognized the arguments made by those who did not see the movie (and such) as sinful. I had made the very same arguments. I honestly believed that the Divines went beyond the Commandment in their application of it.

And yet I was troubled by one thing: the prohibition against making images of the Deity was crystal clear. And no matter how much I reasoned that Jesus was man and could be represented in his humanity, I could not get around Jesus as God, too. I felt like my arguments had a vaguely Nestorian feel and that was an unpleasant thought to me.

So, I grimly set about to study it. I read the banter online. I read John of Damascus and studied the Iconoclast Controversy. I read Calvin (should have started there!)--both his commentaries on the Law and the Institutes. And I prayed...

And THEN, casting about for something "light and easy" to cover on Sunday nights, I decided to preach a series, "10 Weeks in the 10 Commandments." (Actually, the series is winding up being 11 weeks. Have to have intro stuff, ya know!  ) In my studies, I finally have come to the deep conviction that I was wrong. Such movies and representations of Christ are sinful, inasmuch as the do not (nor can they) accurately represent the infinitude and majesty of the Godhead.

So here I am...a little more Reformed, I suppose...on the slippery slope, as they say...only this slope is a good one. I've notified my Session that I removed the exception today.

I say all this to ask a question (and in asking, I suppose this thread might do better in the Patoral Concerns forum): our church has been outside of presbytery for five years and without a minister for almost as long before I got here. A lot of shennanigans have gone on here that should not have. We are sort of this strange hybrid of presbyterian congregationalism (go figure). The authority of the Session is disregarded a lot (though I am laboring to change that AND to get us back into a presbytery). One thing that happened shortly before I came here was that one of the church's elderly men had a (honestly quite lovely) remake of DaVinci's Last Supper made which he had put up over the sanctuary doors.

I have two BIG problems with it:

1. It was done without Session approval (or foreknowledge). That was improper, all other things being equal.

2. Even before I changed my views on the Second Commandment, having such a diplay IN THE CHURCH seemed too close to the spirit of the Commandment for comfort. Now I am sure of it.

I talked with Fred at length on the phone about this issue today (Thanks!). In addition to his sage counsel on how to handle this problem, I would welcome input from the board. Any and all are welcome to answer, but I am keen to hear from the ministers here particularly. No offense to "y'all," but there is something to be said for the gentleness of a pastor's heart! (Calling it an abomination and burning the whole building down would not go over well!  ) What would you do?


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

Praise God for you diligence to study through this issue and for the humility to come to an opposite position on this than you first held. I'll refrain from advice as I'm not a pastor or elder but will note that these things are harder to remove the longer they are in place, the greater value they have (like stainglass windows), and the greater degree to which the giver was a loved or at least prominent or powerful member. If the person is long forgotten, the item a tacky catalog purchased Jesus at the door knocking, you'd think it would be easy to get rid of. Actually I know a church that had such a tacky image but the esteem for the person who gave it, or perhaps the fear of man (I cannot say) kept it in place for way too long. Thankfully it is gone now.

[Edited on 4-23-2005 by NaphtaliPress]


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

I should add that this has been a rather central factor in my church's history being the last straw that got us out of the PCA. We have a number of items on this subject at our church website. 
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/articles.htm#Images, Pictures of Christ
I'm afraid they don't give a great deal of attention to "how" to get rid of such images; might make an interesting practical article.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 23, 2005)

Wow, Kevin! Praise God! I am blessed to hear your humble testimony. May God bless you and continue to grant light and wisdom, especially with regards to the challenges before you.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 23, 2005)

I'm not quite where you're at Pastor Kevin but I did move closer this week. I'm preaching at an arminian, seeker sensitive church tomorrow morning and I've chosen John 4:24 as my text, how God seeks true worshippers who will worship in spirit and in truth.

It was in studying that short text that something stirred in me and I began to see how an image of the man Jesus may risk our ability to worship in spirit. It's been good to see the pomp and circumstance at the vatican these couple weeks as a contrast to worshipping in spirit. What a clear example of how not to worship. I suppose, the Passion movie is not so far removed from the shadows and symbols that the RCC and Greek Orthodox still use to distract from true worship. God bless you and I pray the changes coming to your church will glorify our God and that He will give you wisdom in how to deal with potential trouble spots.


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 23, 2005)

Images of Christ are disgusting

Since when was a Jew a White French King???

Blade


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## BobVigneault (Apr 23, 2005)

Hey Nathan, I asked this once before but no one could help me. Do you know of that site that shows the pictures of the french kings that became the models for the image of Jesus? I've been searching for it but have not been able to find it again. I told many people about it but I can't deliver the source.

Blessings!


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## Arch2k (Apr 23, 2005)

Kevin,

I will also refrain from advise as I am not currently an elder (although my pastor has pursued this for me recently). However, I would like to give praise to God for yet another example of him bringing you closer to the truth. This was an important truth that I learned a few years back, and has changed my life. It truly is freeing.

Blessings


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 24, 2005)

Do a search for merovingians.

Blade


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> I should add that this has been a rather central factor in my church's history being the last straw that got us out of the PCA. We have a number of items on this subject at our church website.
> http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/articles.htm#Images, Pictures of Christ
> I'm afraid they don't give a great deal of attention to "how" to get rid of such images; might make an interesting practical article.



How interesting. We got out of the PCA too (before I came). Essentially, our Session is made up of hotheaded Scottish rebels who dislike being told what to do.


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## lwadkins (Apr 24, 2005)

We are all hotheaded (not all Scottish) rebels who dislike being told what to do. Humility seems to be a lost art.  Obviously we would not have submitted to God had he not made it possible, and boy! do we have trouble submitting to earthly authorities.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> I'm not quite where you're at Pastor Kevin but I did move closer this week. I'm preaching at an arminian, seeker sensitive church tomorrow morning and I've chosen John 4:24 as my text, how God seeks true worshippers who will worship in spirit and in truth.
> 
> It was in studying that short text that something stirred in me and I began to see how an image of the man Jesus may risk our ability to worship in spirit. It's been good to see the pomp and circumstance at the vatican these couple weeks as a contrast to worshipping in spirit. What a clear example of how not to worship. I suppose, the Passion movie is not so far removed from the shadows and symbols that the RCC and Greek Orthodox still use to distract from true worship. God bless you and I pray the changes coming to your church will glorify our God and that He will give you wisdom in how to deal with potential trouble spots.



Yes, I have been thinking along those lines too. Calvin specifically mentions John 4 and the arguments you just made in the Institutes.

BTW, I noticed you are in Janesville. 3 of my kids are native cheeseheads!


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> Do a search for merovingians.
> 
> Blade



You will probably get a ton of hits from the Matrix movies with that key word...

[Edited on 4-24-2005 by kevin.carroll]


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## JohnV (Apr 24, 2005)

Just a thought, Pastor Kevin: have you thought of handling that situation with your Session out on the golf course instead of at the regular meeting place? I mean about the picture. And then again with the principles involved, the ones not on Session who are taking a stand to keep it, once the Session is convinced? Or you could go bowling, or something. What I mean is that you might be able to take the heat off the topic by changing the atmosphere within which it is discussed. It circumvents the official atmosphere which would otherwise overshadow what maybe should be a more informal discussion. It deflates hotheads when they've got to worry about the green, the rough, or the pond; and then the discussion of the picture is more in its place, not as if it is a measure of orthodoxy or respect to the donor to keep it up there.

You aren' talking about whether or not a picture is to be placed in that particular spot, but rather what to do about the fact that it has established itself there. You're talking about reconstituting the former values, and that's going to take courage and patience. The right or wrong of it being there is what you're trying to teach, and this is an opportunity for it to come from them instead of being imposed by you and Session. As you lead your church back to accountability ane responsibility, you want to take with you even the very person whom you'd think would be the most opposed to taking it down. So you need to be gentle, yet firm. 

If and when all else has failed, just go there one night, take it down, and sell it. And take the consequences. But at least the offence is gone. 

I too am not an elder. So I can throw out ideas, but advice from me would have to be more general than specific.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 24, 2005)

John, that's an interesting idea. Perhaps that's why the British Reformers met at the White Horse and debated over a pint! 

[Edited on 4-24-2005 by puritansailor]


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> ...



Our session is made up of Texans. Or at least those who got here as fast as they could. It was actually very orderly; they were happy to show us the door I think.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 24, 2005)

Kevin, have they considered any other denominations like the OPC or ARP? If their problem is just submitting to authority, then that does need to be addressed. They are not an island unto themselves but must seek to join and edify the Body as best they can.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Our session is made up of Texans. Or at least those who got here as fast as they could. It was actually very orderly; they were happy to show us the door I think.



We are in the process at looking at the ARP. I suspect it might be a good fit for our fellowship.


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## clevipearce (Apr 25, 2005)

To be honest, I'm somewhat indifferent when it comes to the Passion of the Christ. Although powerful I take parts of the movie as a grain of salt but the message with all seriousness. 

I wonder where Jesus and art mix? Is that an appropriate question?


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## Arch2k (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by clevipearce_
> To be honest, I'm somewhat indifferent when it comes to the Passion of the Christ. Although powerful I take parts of the movie as a grain of salt but the message with all seriousness.
> 
> I wonder where Jesus and art mix? Is that an appropriate question?



Act 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by clevipearce_
> I wonder where Jesus and art mix? Is that an appropriate question?



It is indeed a legitimate question to ask. Jesus is Lord of all spheres of life and no where do the Scriptures teach that art per se is sinful. However, just as the Seventh Commandment prohibits anything that tends towards unchastity, such as pornographic "art," so likewise the Second Commandment prohibits representations of the Trinity, including God the Son. So, while art may glorify God in that the artist is become a creator and may reflect the beauty that God has created, yet art may be abused if the artist violates God's commandments which have application to all spheres of life. I would commend Francis Schaeffer's tract _Art and the Bible_ as well as John Murray's Pictures of Christ and the Second Commandment for further study on this important issue.


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