# Is Baptism an Element of Worship?



## MarieP (Feb 12, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> fredtgreco said:
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> > Not every element of worship must take place at every worship. *Baptism* and the Lord's Supper, for example.
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The thought's occurred to me as well! One of the perks of sitting by your family in worship, your thoughts somehow emanate into my head! 

Baptism is first commanded in the context of the Great Commission. So the issue of baptism not every worship service could be solved that way. But then again, could it be argued that there are necessary aspects of worship and unnecessary aspects?


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## Herald (Feb 12, 2010)

Marie,

Our confession (1689 LBC 22.5) considers baptism to be and part of corporate worship. It's an element, in that, it is a component part of the worship service. Is baptism a necessary part of worship? Yes. Baptism is to be performed in the presence of the body of Christ. Is there an unnecessary aspect? I'm not sure unnecessary is the right word. Certainly it is acceptable to have a worship service without baptisms if their are not any baptism candidates.


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## Peairtach (Feb 12, 2010)

Of course.


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## Marrow Man (Feb 12, 2010)

Yep.


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2010)

yes.


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## rbcbob (Feb 12, 2010)

MarieP said:


> rbcbob said:
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> > fredtgreco said:
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Why do the WCF and the LCB fail to provide scripture references for baptism being an element of worship?


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## Wanderer (Feb 12, 2010)

Ok, I'm confused about this element of worship and how it is being used in the context of this thread.

For I read in WCF 11.6

6. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed: but God is to be worshipped everywhere, in spirit and truth; as, in private families daily, and in secret, each one by himself; so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or willfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calleth thereunto. 

So what I see here is that Worship is an ongoing thing in the Christians life and is not regulated to just Sunday service or church services. 

And as to Baptism, scripture is clear on this matter. Believers are to be baptized as part of their confession of faith. However, there is no requirement that a Church service is required for the baptism to be valid, or that there needs to be a certain number of believers to observe the act. For we all know the story of Paul's baptism, the Eunuchs baptism, and Peter baptizing gentiles. There was not church service, not a great cloud of people watching it occur, but God was there, and he saw the act. 

So can someone describe the issues of "element of worship". I must admit, there are two element that I believe are required for all worship. The one who is being worshiped, and the worshiper. These two elements are required, and must be present. God is to be the object of our worship, and there are many ways that we can worship him. 

Meaning, we can worship him in our songs, praises, work, attitudes, deeds, and in our life. Our worship of God is to be continuous, we are to acknowledge him in all our ways. This too is worship. Sunday morning worship is just when we come together to do it as a corporate body. Our corporate worship of God should be in reality a very small part of our worshipping Him. However, I believe that to most, it is the sum of all they do.


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## rbcbob (Feb 12, 2010)

Michael I believe that in this thread, which started in another one on "giving", is concerned with Corporate Worship which then comes under the RPW.


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## MarieP (Feb 12, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> MarieP said:
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Good question! I see what you mean!

Could it be that, since baptism is at our entry into the New Covenant community (whether credo or paedo), and so it's not an element so much of worship but of discipleship, as mentioned in the LBCF/WCF prooftext of the Great Commission? Of course, it is worship in the broader sense because it is obeying Christ (offering ourselves as living sacrifices, as in Rom. 12:1, 1 Peter 2:5).


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## fredtgreco (Feb 12, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> MarieP said:
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> > rbcbob said:
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 They do. The Confession simply lists them _en mass_ as:


> the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: (Matt. 28:19, 1 Cor. 11:23–29, Acts 2:42)


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## rbcbob (Feb 12, 2010)

Bob Asked


> Why do the WCF and the LCB fail to provide scripture references for *baptism* being an element of worship?



Fred replied


> They do. The Confession simply lists them en mass as:
> the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: (Matt. 28:19, 1 Cor. 11:23–29, Acts 2:42)



Fred, I am still not seeing these references as answering the question. Matt 28 certainly establishes baptism as the Church's Commission but does not clearly establish it as an element of corporate worship and thus under the RPW.

1Cor 11:23-29 and Acts 2:42 do not speak to the issue of baptism at all.

I am not desirous of championing anything contra the confessions (LBC & WCF) but am puzzled at the lack of Scriptural References to support this narrow point of Baptism as an element of regulated worship.

The Scriptures are clear on the Lord's Supper and the references in the Confessions are to the point.

Still looking for help.

Thanks


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## Curt (Feb 12, 2010)

If baptism is, according to the confessions, to be part of the corporate worship experience, then what do we think of those Baptist brethren who do not have a baptistry and go to the lake or the river for separate services of baptism, without the other elements of worship.


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## fredtgreco (Feb 12, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> Bob Asked
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> > Why do the WCF and the LCB fail to provide scripture references for *baptism* being an element of worship?
> ...


 Bob,

I'm sorry, i don't know how I can be any plainer. The WCF says that the _"worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God." _ The sacraments are defined in WCF 27.4 as "that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord." The Divines could have written _"worthy receiving of *Baptism and the Supper *instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God," _but they didn't. They also did not need to.

Whether you "like" Matthew 28:19 as a proof text for the Confession's propositional statement - that the sacraments are a part of the ordinary [corporate] worship of God is, quite frankly, beside the point. The proof texts were not even original to the WCF - they were added after a request from Parliament to the Assembly. Matthew 28:19 is intended to reference baptism, and 1 Cor. 11 and Acts 2:42 are intended to reference the Lord's Supper. The Confession is crystal clear on this point.


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## MarieP (Feb 12, 2010)

fredtgreco said:


> rbcbob said:
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> > Bob Asked
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No one is arguing whether the Confessions are crystal clear on it. The question being asked is how the framers of the Confessions got their crystal clear statement from Scripture? My guess is that it was a similar process to gleaning the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture. Although that might mean adding back "or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" to our definition of the RPW


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 12, 2010)

The proposition isn't that hard.

Do the sacraments share the same essential character or not? In other words, _*are they both sacraments?*_If they DO and ARE, then all I actually need is to have one of them plainly taught as belonging to the public worship of God. Then, by a simple substitution--justified by the nature of essential qualities--the one belongs in worship as much as the other. That is , if one sacrament, then all other sacraments (there are only two).

The Mt.28 passage assigns the duty of baptism to the foundation stones of the church (Rev.21:14), to "pillars" (as Paul called the original Twelve and their immediate successors, Gal.2:9); they were "stewards of the mysteries," 1Cor.4:1. The ordinances of Christ were for the institutional church, for marking out those who belonged to it--by initiation and perpetuation. Were the OT sacraments, Passover and circumcision, not to mention all the other rites and ceremonies, part of the public worship of God? Passover lambs were to be slain by the priests in the place designated by God for his Name to dwell. Jesus was taken to the Temple to be circumcised, as the most convenient place FIT for the procedure. (Presumably, the priests did that work under synagogical circumstances, when being in Jerusalem on the eighth day was not possible).

The fact that the conduct of this religious service was to be performed by the ministers is, by biblical pattern, sufficent to demonstrate that the situation of religious worship was the proper venue, if perhaps not the ONLY proper venue.


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## dudley (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, both the Lords Supper and Baptism are part of our worship service.


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