# To The Presbyterians



## JohnGill

I have a list of questions:

I would like to know what qualifications Presbyterians have for Sunday School Teacher.

Are only teaching Elders allowed to teach in Sunday School for Adults? 
Is there a course for that is used to train Sunday School teachers if laymen teach?
Is there a test that is administered?

Questions about Eldership in General

What training should an elder have in church?
Would the Westminster Larger Catechism or the 3 Forms of Unity be sufficient for doctrinal training of an Elder?

Thanks in advance.


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## raekwon

JohnGill said:


> I have a list of questions:
> 
> I would like to know what qualifications Presbyterians have for Sunday School Teacher.
> 
> Are only teaching Elders allowed to teach in Sunday School for Adults?
> Is there a course for that is used to train Sunday School teachers if laymen teach?
> Is there a test that is administered?



I can only answer for the PCA, as that's my only experience as a presbyterian.

There's no "standard presbyterian answer" for these questions . . . it probably varies from church to church. Some churches (like mine) don't even have Sunday school (we meet in eachother's homes throughout the week for Bible study and fellowship).

I'll say that there _should_ be some sort of training required to teach in a formal capacity (or at least time-tested faithfulness to scripture and ability to teach). Limiting this sort of teaching to TEs, though, isn't mandated (and seems foolish, to be frank).



> Questions about Eldership in General
> 
> What training should an elder have in church?
> Would the Westminster Larger Catechism or the 3 Forms of Unity be sufficient for doctrinal training of an Elder?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on their knowledge of and conformity to the Bible, the doctrinal standards of the PCA (Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms, Westminster Confession of Faith), and the Book of Church Order. Any training needs to cover these topics.

(Additionally, I think that it's important for potential elders to have a good knowledge of a breadth of topics like church history, epistemology, etc)


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## TimV

As of this time in the PCA there's never been a formal ruling against women teaching Sunday school. Anyone can do it, or lead Bible studies.


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## larryjf

TimV said:


> As of this time in the PCA there's never been a formal ruling against women teaching Sunday school. Anyone can do it, or lead Bible studies.



Does there need to be a formal ruling for something that's forbidden in the Bible (1 Tim 2:12)? If women are forbidden to teach men i wouldn't think that would be a question for the PCA to have to rule on. And the presumption would be that men would be in the Sunday School.


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## Roldan

larryjf said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of this time in the PCA there's never been a formal ruling against women teaching Sunday school. Anyone can do it, or lead Bible studies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does there need to be a formal ruling for something that's forbidden in the Bible (1 Tim 2:12)? If women are forbidden to teach men i wouldn't think that would be a question for the PCA to have to rule on. And the presumption would be that men would be in the Sunday School.
Click to expand...


Right, and I can only speak for the PCA churches I have been to throughout the years, women only teach young children boys until they reach there teens like 12 and up then they move on to men to teach them from there on. I know I know that begs the question of when do boys become men, I can only assume they are using the principle of scripture that considered boys to become men at or around age 12 but don't quote me on that but it just seems to work anyways. And I'm not suggesting that the teen boys are then separated from the girls or anything just speaking on the issue of the women teaching Sunday school, sorry if this hijacked the thread.


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## JohnGill

OK,

But what qualifications if any are there for Sunday School teachers? And what training?

What training do churches do for Elders?


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## JBaldwin

larryjf said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of this time in the PCA there's never been a formal ruling against women teaching Sunday school. Anyone can do it, or lead Bible studies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does there need to be a formal ruling for something that's forbidden in the Bible (1 Tim 2:12)? If women are forbidden to teach men i wouldn't think that would be a question for the PCA to have to rule on. And the presumption would be that men would be in the Sunday School.
Click to expand...


In my experience in the PCA, women don't teach mixed adult Sunday School classes. The only time I have seen a woman get up in front of a Sunday School class to teach to a mixed adult group is when she was joint teaching with her husband, and the topic was marriage in the Bible. In that case, her husband did the majority of the teaching, and she chimed in with examples. Otherwise, the women are either teaching children or teaching women's classes. 

But as was already stated, in the PCA, that varies from church to church.


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## Roldan

JohnGill said:


> OK,
> 
> But what qualifications if any are there for Sunday School teachers? And what training?
> 
> What training do churches do for Elders?



Well our Sunday School teachers have to learn AT LEAST the Larger and shorter Catechisms and go through a basic "what is Refomed Theology" course in which we use RC Sprouls video series.

Elders? In our church their knowledge must be close to if not equivalent to the Pastors training, pretty much some type of Reformed seminary training which my Pastor/Father and myself teach. Its not as extensive but the bottom line is they gotta know their stuff and know how to teach it and apply it in their lives.


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## JohnGill

Roldan said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK,
> 
> But what qualifications if any are there for Sunday School teachers? And what training?
> 
> What training do churches do for Elders?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well our Sunday School teachers have to learn AT LEAST the Larger and shorter Catechisms and go through a basic "what is Refomed Theology" course in which we use RC Sprouls video series.
> 
> Elders? In our church their knowledge must be close to if not equivalent to the Pastors training, pretty much some type of Reformed seminary training which my Pastor/Father and myself teach. Its not as extensive but the bottom line is they gotta know their stuff and know how to teach it and apply it in their lives.
Click to expand...


Is this the series you were talking about:

[video=youtube;Hfg1lMDHblU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfg1lMDHblU[/video]

Where do you buy it?

I found the book:

Amazon.com: What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics: R. C. Sproul: Books

When you say learn, do you mean familiarize yourself with the doctrines they teach or do you mean memorize?


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## Roldan

JohnGill said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK,
> 
> But what qualifications if any are there for Sunday School teachers? And what training?
> 
> What training do churches do for Elders?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well our Sunday School teachers have to learn AT LEAST the Larger and shorter Catechisms and go through a basic "what is Refomed Theology" course in which we use RC Sprouls video series.
> 
> Elders? In our church their knowledge must be close to if not equivalent to the Pastors training, pretty much some type of Reformed seminary training which my Pastor/Father and myself teach. Its not as extensive but the bottom line is they gotta know their stuff and know how to teach it and apply it in their lives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is this the series you were talking about:
> 
> [video=youtube;Hfg1lMDHblU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfg1lMDHblU[/video]
> 
> Where do you buy it?
> 
> I found the book:
> 
> Amazon.com: What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics: R. C. Sproul: Books
> 
> When you say learn, do you mean familiarize yourself with the doctrines they teach or do you mean memorize?
Click to expand...


That would be the one. 


https://store.ligonier.org/product.asp?idDept=D&idCategory=TH&idProduct=WHA01DC


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## Grymir

I can only speak for my church (PCUSA) and the Disciples of Christ Church where I started teaching Sunday School. I was converted by reading the Bible from cover to cover, then read a ton of theology books. When I joined the church (DOC), the Pastor took me under his wings and gave me 'how to teach' books and sent me to a few seminar's. I was hooked on R.C. Sproul and wanted to be like him. I got to teach the adult theology class because of all this, even though I was 'newer' to the faith. I was under closed observation too! Pastor Tim at the DOC church was arminian. I asked him one day what to teach the church, since my Calvinist wings were just sprouting, when I came to a passage that would be different than what he would teach, and he told me to teach what I knew the verse (s) to say, because I wouldn't teach anything against the Bible. Which surprised me. I felt the profound sense of trust he had in me to expound the Bible accurately

In most church's, there's a shortage of people willing to teach. This lead's to a kind of if you want to you can approach. That's how I more or less got to teach at my present church, but they knew I had experience already. Plus I had established a reputation as a right-winger (theologically) and corrected liberal (theological) ideas that were trying to establish themselves in the class. I've also seen the not-so-worthy people teaching and wish I had the authority to get rid of them, but I don't, so I just teach the truth. And those that really want to learn seem to flock to my class. It's interesting to watch. And rewarding.

Having the Pastor and/or somebody in authority helps alot, because when you start to teach the truth (especially in a 'modern' church), the libs will crawl out of the woodwork and try and squash you. The authority person can beat them back, because all of the shenanigans will occur behind the scenes. That happened alot in the DOC church.

Even in my PCUSA church, we only ordain men as elders still. And they have to meet the biblical qualifications.


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## ManleyBeasley

Grymir,
Why do you attend a PCUSA church? I'm not saying its wrong, maybe they still have some good ones, just curious.


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## Roldan

Grymir said:


> And they have to meet the biblical qualifications.



You mean they still use the Bible?!! I'm just playing mannnnnn 

I love your signature ..

Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)

LOL


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## Grymir

Hi Y'all. Manley Beasley, I'm still at my church because there is no better in this liberal wasteland that I live in, without a hour drive. Also, my particular church is pretty conservative, hence they still follow the bible for elders. As for the doctrine, they do follow it fairly well. In my class, it is followed to the letter as it should be everywhere. The Pastor and many; however, are Barthian/Modernist in their preaching and thought.  Hence you will see in some of my posts I have an anti-Barthian slant. It is a struggle, and if it gets much worse, my family will leave. But actually giving up my Sunday School class will be hard. This relates to the OP. If I leave, I have to go through the 'discovery' process all over again. I love to teach Sunday School, and when I join a Church, they sometimes think I am there to draw disciples after myself because I'm a theological/philosophical whiz, and they don't know what to do with me. I guess if I said, "ya, it will be a pain, but I'll teach anyway" they would appoint me right away, instead I say "I'll be happy to teach sunday school, I really enjoy it" and they think I'm weird. 

Have to go Y'all, I have to teach my car how to run properly!


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## JohnGill

Grymir said:


> Hence you will see in some of my posts I have an anti-Barthian slant.





Besides WLC, WSC, & the Book of Church Order (substitute Directory of Publick Worship?), and the Sproul Videos, what other tools do Presbyterians use to train Sunday School Teachers and Elders?

Do any of your churches require memorization of the WSC by its Elders or SS Teachers?


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## raekwon

JohnGill said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hence you will see in some of my posts I have an anti-Barthian slant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides WLC, WSC, & the Book of Church Order (substitute Directory of Publick Worship?), and the Sproul Videos, what other tools do Presbyterians use to train Sunday School Teachers and Elders?
Click to expand...


We found a lot of value in the online courses from Covenant Seminary at Covenant Worldwide - Home Page . . . we listened to the lectures through the week and discussed them at our weekly training sessions. Also, good books pertaining to church leadership, church planting, and such are valuable.



> Do any of your churches require memorization of the WSC by its Elders or SS Teachers?



Not ours. Memorization of the wording isn't as important as internalizing the truth that the words convey, so it's okay if an elder doesn't get the exact wording of a Q&A correct during his exam.


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## Southern Presbyterian

Grymir said:


> ... *they think I'm weird*.



I'm not so sure it's because you're so excited about teaching, brother. 

Just Kidding - I just couldn't let that one pass.


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## Grace Alone

We have been in mostly smaller churches, and the elders taught all the adult classes and led Bible studies, other than the women's study. There was no special training for Sunday School teachers (elders are presumed to be able to teach, and they always study the topic they are teaching, obviously). Women mainly taught the middle school and younger, and elders taught the high school age. 

I have never heard of a Sunday School teacher being required to memorized the WSC.


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## KMK

raekwon said:


> In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on their knowledge of and conformity to the Bible, the doctrinal standards of the PCA (Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms, Westminster Confession of Faith), and the Book of Church Order.



Just curious...

In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on conformity to the Bible, the WS, and the BCO. Are there doctrines to which officers must conform that are not contained in the WS or the BCO? If so, where are these doctrines declared? Is there an additional Statement of Faith aside from the WS? Or does each PCA church have the right to test for conformity to doctrines of their own choosing? For example, can one PCA church demand conformity to amillenialism while others do not?


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## Roldan

Actually any person who feels led to teach Sunday School needs to know what they are teaching and should be tested and/or discipled in order to ensure that the children are being taught correctly. Just because it is "Sunday School" which sounds elementary at first but does not mean its not just as important and sacred as an Elder teaching the more meaty subjects. In my humble opinion, taking the responsibility to teach from the Word of God at ANY level is a great task and that person must be inwardly called to take up such a task, our Church specifically takes that call very serious and don't just throw any ol person who raises their hand to volunteer cause there isn't anyone else or whatever. Anyways, to end my rambling, God's Word is Holy and Sacred from the biblical nursery pictures and paintings to the Pastors expository sermon in worship and all who take on the task to teach lessons from the Holy Word of God MUST be apt to teach no matter what age group they take on. 

I just wanted to get that off my chest


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## TimV

I'm certainly not defending the PCA not having a formal rule against women teaching Sunday school or Bible study. The contrary. When our Church followed the unfortunate theory of "a woman can do anything an unordained man can do" I checked into it, and there's not much one can do if a Session wants a woman to lead a men's Bible study.


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## Roldan

TimV said:


> I'm certainly not defending the PCA not having a formal rule against women teaching Sunday school or Bible study. The contrary. When our Church followed the unfortunate theory of "a woman can do anything an unordained man can do" I checked into it, and there's not much one can do if a Session wants a woman to lead a men's Bible study.



You couldn't bring up charges or anything?


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## TimV

Nope. You could write letters to the Session complaining, or if enough people felt like you, override the Session's veto of someone more conservative you want for and Elder to tilt the Session back to center; things like that, but basically you have to accept it unless you can get the Session to change. An outside force, like a Presbytery, could bring it up for discussion at the GA level, and that may eventually happen, but it would take lots of time.


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## Roldan

TimV said:


> Nope. You could write letters to the Session complaining, or if enough people felt like you, override the Session's veto of someone more conservative you want for and Elder to tilt the Session back to center; things like that, but basically you have to accept it unless you can get the Session to change. An outside force, like a Presbytery, could bring it up for discussion at the GA level, and that may eventually happen, but it would take lots of time.



Ouch! You must've been fustrated, you not talking about an OPC session right?


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## TimV

Frustrated didn't come close! I haven't learned those sorts of details about the OPC yet, but something tells me they wouldn't allow women leading men's Bible studies.


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## Roldan

TimV said:


> Frustrated didn't come close! I haven't learned those sorts of details about the OPC yet, but something tells me they wouldn't allow women leading men's Bible studies.



oh ok just checking since your signature said you was going to an opc church, whooosh!


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## ManleyBeasley

Grymir said:


> Hi Y'all. Manley Beasley, I'm still at my church because there is no better in this liberal wasteland that I live in, without a hour drive. Also, my particular church is pretty conservative, hence they still follow the bible for elders. As for the doctrine, they do follow it fairly well. In my class, it is followed to the letter as it should be everywhere. The Pastor and many; however, are Barthian/Modernist in their preaching and thought.  Hence you will see in some of my posts I have an anti-Barthian slant. It is a struggle, and if it gets much worse, my family will leave. But actually giving up my Sunday School class will be hard. This relates to the OP. If I leave, I have to go through the 'discovery' process all over again. I love to teach Sunday School, and when I join a Church, they sometimes think I am there to draw disciples after myself because I'm a theological/philosophical whiz, and they don't know what to do with me. I guess if I said, "ya, it will be a pain, but I'll teach anyway" they would appoint me right away, instead I say "I'll be happy to teach sunday school, I really enjoy it" and they think I'm weird.
> 
> Have to go Y'all, I have to teach my car how to run properly!



Sorry to hear that brother! Stay strong as long as God allows you to stay. It sounds like God is glorified by your teaching of the truth there! Soli Deo Gloria


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## raekwon

KMK said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on their knowledge of and conformity to the Bible, the doctrinal standards of the PCA (Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms, Westminster Confession of Faith), and the Book of Church Order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious...
> 
> In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on conformity to the Bible, the WS, and the BCO. Are there doctrines to which officers must conform that are not contained in the WS or the BCO? If so, where are these doctrines declared? Is there an additional Statement of Faith aside from the WS? Or does each PCA church have the right to test for conformity to doctrines of their own choosing? For example, can one PCA church demand conformity to amillenialism while others do not?
Click to expand...


Short answer: no, churches and presbyteries *may not* do this . . . but some probably do anyway.

There are probably churches (and entire presbyteries) that have their "pet views" that they like their officers to conform to, such as millenial views, creation days, etc, but as long as an officer candidate's views fall acceptably within the language of our doctrinal standards, then they cannot be barred from office. For instance, a dispensational premillenialist may not be an elder or a deacon in the PCA. However, an historical/classic premillenialist may. That view is considered compatible with the reformed view of the Covenant.


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## Whitefield

Roldan said:


> I can only assume they are using the principle of scripture that considered boys to become men at or around age 12



What is the scriptural reference for this?


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## Scott1

At my PCA church:



> Are only teaching Elders allowed to teach in Sunday School for Adults?



No.

Generally, two people must teach a class, one Elder or Deacon paired with another person (who can be a layman).

Women can teach women's classes only. I don't think they are paired with a Church Officer.

All classes have to be approved by a committee as to content, form and teachers.



> Is there a course for that is used to train Sunday School teachers if laymen teach?


No, the idea is someone is paired with a Church officer who might help them a bit with this.



> Is there a test that is administered?


No.

Generally, the head of the education committee (which has Elders on it) is pro-active in asking people to teach. A Layman can ask to teach, but the materials and their teaching it needs to be approved, and almost always they are paired with a Church officer as back-up.


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## Scott1

> I found the book:
> 
> Amazon.com: What is Reformed Theology?:...



Speaking of teaching Sunday School, I have taught this class. The book and video is superb in understanding Reformed Theology.

In relation to your original question, I, as a layman, was paired with a Teaching Elder and I led in teaching this course. My book and outline were submitted to the education committee and they approved it for teaching. I had led in teaching this same study in our small group and I mentioned that to the education committee.


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## Scott1

KMK said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on their knowledge of and conformity to the Bible, the doctrinal standards of the PCA (Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms, Westminster Confession of Faith), and the Book of Church Order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious...
> 
> In the PCA, officer candidates are examined on conformity to the Bible, the WS, and the BCO. Are there doctrines to which officers must conform that are not contained in the WS or the BCO? If so, where are these doctrines declared? Is there an additional Statement of Faith aside from the WS? Or does each PCA church have the right to test for conformity to doctrines of their own choosing? For example, can one PCA church demand conformity to amillenialism while others do not?
Click to expand...


The Constitution of the PCA Consists of the Westminster Standards and the Book of Church Order. There is also a Directory of Worship that is not officially required but it is part of the BCO.

Candidates are examined for every proposition or statement they disagree with in the Westminster Standards and must be granted an exception, usually by majority vote of their Presbytery.

A few exceptions have been ruled on judicially in the denomination such as the "Bowen" case where it was determined that no presbytery could grant exceptions for the limited atonement or paedobaptism.

The examination also includes an extensive moral character type examination, too.

There may be quite a variance in allowable exceptions, but from what I see, exceptions are few and far between in most Presbyteries.

As to millennial eschatology, the Westminster Confession would allow an historical premillennial, postmillennial, and amillennial view so any Presbytery would take that, but not a modern dispensational premillennial one.

But, a local church could find a person not a good "fit" and not call the person- say the candidate was historical premill and took a sabbath recreation exception and was granted that by presbytery but the church was used to amill/postmill and wanted to be hold full application of the Confession on the Sabbath.


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