# Pastor's Education?



## gordo

Hi guys. My wife and I were discussing pastors the other day and were wondering if there is a certain education requirement to be a pastor (i.e. become ordained). I always assumed that most pastors went to a seminary after getting a 3 or 4 year degree at a college or university, but I also have heard of some pastors that have little more then a diploma or four year degree at a bible college. Does it differ in denominations when a pastor can be ordained (have the necessary training)? Then comes the question of what a congregation would deem acceptable education for a pastor to have.

Anyways any light that could be shed on this would be greatly appreciated.

gord


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## N. Eshelman

This answer varies from denomination to denomination (or whatever you want to call your gathering of churches). In the RPCNA and in MOST reformed churches, the pastor is required under normal circumstances to have a Master of Divinity or its equivalent. This means that most reformed pastors will have a bachelor's degree (4 years) and a master's degree (3-4 years).


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## gordo

Thanks Pastor Nathan. Appreciate the reply!


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## jogri17

In some cases, the MA in theology is sufficient and not the MDIV. If memory serves me well, 2 years of theological education is the minimum requirement for ordination in the OPC. In the ERQ, we demand either the BTH, MAR (2 years out of the Mdiv program) or the MDiv. The MDiv is not a true master's degree and is treated more and more like the Undergraduate level degree it really is. the ThM is the graduate level that makes one able to teach at Seminary level.


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## gordo

More good info. Thanks Joseph.


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## JML

An educated pastor is a necessity. One with a formal education with letters after his name is not a Biblical requirement to put on someone. Is it a bad idea? Absolutely not, as it is one way to gain the necessary knowledge for the pastorate. However, to say this is the only way to go I don't think can be proven Biblically. That is how most Baptists look at it anyway.


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## Guido's Brother

In the Canadian Reformed Churches, we expect a man to have an M.Div., typically from our seminary here in Hamilton. That means four years of seminary training, plus a three or four year undergrad. One of the key components in ministerial education has to be training in the original languages. The Canadian Reformed seminary requires men to have one year of Hebrew and two years of Greek before seminary. Then you spend another four years on those languages in seminary. By the time I'd graduated, I'd studied Hebrew and Greek for six years each. This is invaluable for the pastoral ministry -- these are the building blocks of exegesis.


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## N. Eshelman

John Lanier said:


> An educated pastor is a necessity. One with a formal education with letters after his name is not a Biblical requirement to put on someone. Is it a bad idea? Absolutely not, as it is one way to gain the necessary knowledge for the pastorate. However, to say this is the only way to go I don't think can be proven Biblically. That is how most Baptists look at it anyway.



That's why I included the line "under normal circumstances." There are men who serve the church but have not completed an MDiv. They, of course, are the exception, not the rule.


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## Bill The Baptist

jogri17 said:


> The MDiv is not a true master's degree and is treated more and more like the Undergraduate level degree it really is



If that is true, then why is it so lengthy? Most MDiv degrees require at least 90 credit hours on top of the 120 credit hour undergraduate degree that is a prerequisite.


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## JML

N. Eshelman said:


> That's why I included the line "under normal circumstances." There are men who serve the church but have not completed an MDiv. They, of course, are the exception, not the rule.



Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying anything against what you said, just stating the normal Baptist viewpoint.


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## bug

Surely the qualifications are situational! I don't expect my african friend who pastors a small church in kenya to master greek just yet! Paul would appoint elders in congregations that had only been planted months before, Acts 14:23. Now perhaps those men would have not have been suitable to pastor the more mature church in Jerusalem, but they had sufficient gifts to lead the churches they served. Personnally I would prefer a man with calling, that we can see he has faithfully persued, then a string of letters fater his name. The letters are a good thing, but as a required qualification I just don't see it, but then I am baptist! One thing I would like to see is an apprenticeship under an experienced man, that is far more important then mere acedemic knowledge on it's own.


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## nicnap

bug said:


> Surely the qualifications are situational! I don't expect my african friend who pastors a small church in kenya to master greek just yet! Paul would appoint elders in congregations that had only been planted months before, Acts 14:23. Now perhaps those men would have not have been suitable to pastor the more mature church in Jerusalem, but they had sufficient gifts to lead the churches they served. Personnally I would prefer a man with calling, that we can see he has faithfully persued, then a string of letters fater his name. The letters are a good thing, but as a required qualification I just don't see it, but then I am baptist! One thing I would like to see is an apprenticeship under an experienced man, that is far more important then mere acedemic knowledge on it's own.



Why don't you expect your friend in Kenya to master Greek? Surely you are not saying that he, by virtue of being Kenyan, is less able to do so, are you? My pastor friends in Uganda have _all_ taken Greek, and some are more proficient than men in the states. As for Paul setting up men in the months old church -- these men had probably been men of reputation in the Synagogues. Which means they were men already acquainted with the Scriptures, and with the system that had led up to and pointed to Christ. (Further, Paul was an apostle, and was laying the ground work for those following; much of his work will be, for that reason, descriptive and not prescriptive. Which is why there are further qualifications in Timothy and Titus.)


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## Christopher88

bug said:


> One thing I would like to see is an apprenticeship under an experienced man, that is far more important then mere acedemic knowledge on it's own.


Pastor Jonathan of Salem Baptist,
This is where I agree fully with you. First I firmly believe that the word of God makes it clear a man called should be educated, but not educated to the degree local reformed churches desire. Why should a young man spend his twenties working in school than mid to late twenties go to seminary? The Presbyterian would say, so he is well rounded. 

(Keep in mind I'm a Presbyterian ) 
I feel a man in his twenties needs to at least gain a trade by going to a local trade school. (For the tent maker position if need be) But this mans life should be spent learning from his own Pastor for a good 5 to 10 years. The young man should not have to go off in another part of the state leaving his home church, he should not have to pay thousands of dollars to gain an education much less a Biblical education. Instead he needs to spend his years under care, under discipleship, under the Pastors training, spending his money on his library, spending his time doing ministry. 


Pastors, Elders answer this for me;
Are you not training men? You tell us young men to aim for seminary, that means money. What you don't know is this is one of the most profound upsetting things some of us hear. What we want is to learn from you directly. To live with you, to learn your ways because aren't you the one that reflects Christ? 

I do not want to leave the church where you shepard just to go to seminary for three years. I certainly do not want to attend a state school which will force me 9 months of the year to be away from your elder ship. 

I want you to train me, and when you feel I'm ready send me out to plant or to go overseas. 




Just my thoughts, maybe a bit random for this thread.


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## Guido's Brother

Education for the ministry is not about academic credentials per se. It's about having the tools to be able to faithfully expound the Word of God. Reformed pastors around the world in many cultures receive proper training in Hebrew and Greek and learn the fundamentals of hermeneutics, exegesis, and so on. They don't all receive an M.Div., and that's all right. But all pastors need to have the basic tools.


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## Jeff Kerr

The PCA requires a MDiv under normal circumstances, including study in both original languages. The length of the program varies from school to school and student to student. Typically, a MDiv is completed in three or four years. The length of undergraduate programs also varies from country to country. In the US, it's four years. I did my BA at a Canadian university and completed it in three years. This is an option in British-based systems and is sometimes called a pass degree. A four year program is often called an honours degree. Anyway, the PCA also allows for ordination apart from having earned the degrees in necessary circumstances. But the ordination requirements remain the same, including study in the languages.


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## NB3K

what about a self taught pastor? I have been teaching myself by submitting myself under the teachings of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, C. Hodge, and more recently Herman Bavnick. I am trying to get into TNARS. I understand the importance of training for the office of pastor, but can one simply be tested by their fruits ie.. biblical expositing, teaching sound doctrine, and driving home the application of the doctrine in our lives.


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## Covenant Joel

The PCA technically requires a theological master's degree that includes the biblical languages, which is normally an M.Div., but can be an MA depending on the presbytery.


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## gordo

Very interesting responses. The most influential pastor in my life is not that well educated but he has a passion for sharing and teaching the Word of God. Not saying that is good for all cases but he is a man that makes you passionate for God's Word, and that counts for more then any education. I think a pastor with a passion for preaching and sharing God's Word is 90% of what is needed, but the more education he gets the better he gets.


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## nicnap

gordo said:


> But I do agree as said above pastors need the basic tools for sure.



One thing that might be helpful for you, is to define what you believe the basic tools are that a man might need for the ministry. 

(This is in general, not to you, Gordo) There is definitely a need for men to be trained by their pastors--and they should be through the ability that the pastor is able. However, not all men are equally gifted, and there might be a real deficiency in the knowledge of one man. Where his knowledge falls short, a seminary -- or even another pastor could fill in. Now, obviously, I am for an educated clergy; that's why I attended seminary. Do I think that it is the ideal for men to have to pack it all up and move? No, but that is how the providence of God has orchestrated the history of the church in America. Do I think we should shut down all the seminaries and say, "It's up to you pastors"? Absolutely not. There are advantages and disadvantages to each side. If a man is convicted that he should remain where he is--there are multiple seminaries that offer distance/online education (GPTS offers instruction via web in real time). Is it sad that some seminaries have become over inflated on their prices? Sure. But there are many that will partner with churches, and in true Presbyterian fashion, with presbyteries, and see that a man comes out with little or no debt. Further, if a man senses a call to the ministry, and his church recognizes it as well, they should aid the man. If the man senses and the church does not, perhaps he is pursuing the ministry wrongly.



NB3K said:


> but can one simply be tested by their fruits ie.. biblical expositing, teaching sound doctrine, and driving home the application of the doctrine in our lives.



Can there be self taught pastors? Possibly. I know men who are very gifted, and even know the languages, but that is more extraordinary. There are things that men are not even aware that they need to know or read when they rely on themselves and own reading (I know that was the case for me). Other men will introduce to you things that are necessary to know that you would not think of on your own. Hearing men flesh out ideas and controversies, and being able to ask questions, and interact is vital to learning. Am I saying that you are wrong in seeking to be self-taught? No ... all men are to be constantly learning. But you also mentioned that you are applying to TNARS, which means you recognize the need for others to assist you in your endeavor.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------




bug said:


> One thing I would like to see is an apprenticeship under an experienced man, that is far more important then mere acedemic knowledge on it's own.



This is one of the beauties of being Presbyterian; as a part of requirement, in addition to seminary, men are required to do an internship -- which will help him sort his gifts, and be trained under the leadership of a local church.

---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------




Sonny said:


> Pastors, Elders answer this for me;
> Are you not training men? You tell us young men to aim for seminary, that means money. What you don't know is this is one of the most profound upsetting things some of us hear. What we want is to learn from you directly. To live with you, to learn your ways because aren't you the one that reflects Christ?
> 
> I do not want to leave the church where you shepard just to go to seminary for three years. I certainly do not want to attend a state school which will force me 9 months of the year to be away from your elder ship.



Surely you realize you are adding dramatic flair to this. You are near Winston-Salem--there are tons of local community and private and state (even a few Christian) colleges that are near you, and you would not have to be out from under the shepherding care of your elders, for nine months of the year. Further, you are being trained more than you realize by the preaching of your pastor, and from his visits with you. Perhaps you can even ask him to take you under his wing; if you are feeling the call to ministry, the church should be recognizing it as well, and should be providing opportunities for you to develop your gifts. In doing this they should be providing feedback and training. Further, if you are quite intent on staying put, GPTS makes it very possible for a man to not have to leave home (very much at all -- maybe two weeks a year at most). The cost is reasonable, and you would be required to work in conjunction with your pastor. Just some thoughts.


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## gordo

nicnap said:


> (This is in general, not to you, Gordo) There is definitely a need for men to be trained by their pastors--and they should be through the ability that the pastor is able. However, not all men are equally gifted, and there might be a real deficiency in the knowledge of one man. Where his knowledge falls short, a seminary -- or even another pastor could fill in. Now, obviously, I am for an educated clergy; that's why I attended seminary. Do I think that it is the ideal for men to have to pack it all up and move? No, but that is how the providence of God has orchestrated the history of the church in America. Do I think we should shut down all the seminaries and say, "It's up to you pastors"? Absolutely not. There are advantages and disadvantages to each side. If a man is convicted that he should remain where he is--there are multiple seminaries that offer distance/online education (GPTS offers instruction via web in real time). Is it sad that some seminaries have become over inflated on their prices? Sure. But there are many that will partner with churches, and in true Presbyterian fashion, with presbyteries, and see that a man comes out with little or no debt. Further, if a man senses a call to the ministry, and his church recognizes it as well, they should aid the man. If the man senses and the church does not, perhaps he is pursuing the ministry wrongly.



Very good points. Thanks you for sharing. It's hard to argue with anything you said.


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## tarrda

Here are a few exerpts from the life of C H Suprgeon about his education and thoughts of college, while we know him as a great preacher he also was a loving pastor, I wonder how he would have faired in todays churches;--- Soon after I had begun, in 1852, to preach the Word in Waterbeach, I was strongly advised by my father and others to enter Stepney, now Regent's Park College, to prepare more firmly for the ministry. Knowing that learning is never an incumbrance and is often a great means of usefulness, I felt inclined to avail myself of the opportunity of attaining it; although I believed I might be useful without a college training, I consented to the opinion of friends, that I should be more useful with it.

Still holding to the idea of entering the Collegiate Institution, he thought of writing and making an immediate application; but this was not to be. That afternoon, having to preach at walked slowly in a meditating frame of mind over Midsummer Common to the little wooden bridge which leads to Chesterton, and in the midst of the common I was startled by what seemed to me to be a loud voice, but which map have been a singular illusion: whichever it alas, the impression it made on my mind was most vivid; I seemed very distinctly to hear the words, "Seekest thou great things for thyself, seek them not."

March 9, 1852, Mr. Spurgeon writes: "I have all along had an aversion to college, and nothing but a feeling that I must not consult myself, but Jesus, could have made me think of it. It appears to my friends at Cambridge, that it is my duty to remain with my dear people at Waterbeach; so say the church there unanimously, and so say three of our deacons at Cambridge."

During the summer his decision was taken, in the Way previously related; and in a letter he sent to his mother in November following, he says: "I am more and more glad that I never went to college. God sends such sunshine on my path, such smiles of grace, that I cannot regret if I have forfeited all my prospects for it. I am conscious I held back from love to God and His cause; and I had rather be poor in His service than rich in my own. I have all that heart can wish for; yea, God giveth more than my desire. My congregation is as great and loving as ever.


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## nicnap

Tarrda, that is all well and good, but there are not many Charles Spurgeons out there. Extraordinary cases make bad rules. That is why from most of the pastors who have responded, you have seen the word "ordinarily" or "normal" circumstances when referring to education of the clergy. There are very few extraordinary cases--that's why they are extraordinary.


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## Bill The Baptist

tarrda said:


> Here are a few exerpts from the life of C H Suprgeon about his education and thoughts of college, while we know him as a great preacher he also was a loving pastor, I wonder how he would have faired in todays churches



I don't think there is any question that the Apostle Paul would not be ordained today by most denominations.


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## NB3K

I don't know the languages like the gaints of the faith, but I make great use of the dictionaries that I have. For Greek I use Kittle's 10vol. As for Hebrew I have nothing. I usually use the LXX and refer to the TDNT and cross reference the LXX with the N.T. Greek and use either Webster's 1828 and Oxford's English Dictionaries. I know this is not the best for understanding the meanings of the original languages, but I guess one must start somewhere. 

I would rather learn Greek at least. but then again Augustine knew no greek!


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