# Graduate work



## Claudiu (May 4, 2011)

I'm a student at UC Berkeley right now. When I'm done with my studies here I plan on continuing my education and getting [-]an MDiv[/-] a Masters. I was wondering if a place like WTS or WSCal are good places to get [-]an MDiv[/-] a Masters (with plans to move on to Doctoral work)? Then, what about a Doctoral degree from a place like Oxford, Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, etc.? What I have in mind right now is something academia related so that's why I'm mentioning some well known places (what about places overseas?). I just want to know what some of the best options are for me. Any input will be greatly appreciated.


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## Reformed Thomist (May 4, 2011)

Philosophy?


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## Claudiu (May 4, 2011)

I should of specified, I meant to say MDiv and then PhD in something related. I don't plan on continuing in Philosophy. I will edit my OP.


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (May 4, 2011)

Be very careful with Notre Dame and Yale if you plan anything religious based. Notre Dame is a Catholic school, Yale is a very left-winged school. I looked into the latter pretty heavily for graduate level study. I can't speak for any of the other Ivy league schools. Duke is great if you're going after anything in the Humanities (as is UNC).

Also, be prepared to pay money...a lot of it. Every school you mentioned except Duke (possibly) will run no less than 20-30k per year.


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## Marrow Man (May 4, 2011)

The advice that was given to me about Ph.D.s is not to pay attention so much to the school as to the advisor you'll be working under.


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## CharlieJ (May 4, 2011)

If you have academic career aspirations, don't go to any PhD program that isn't:

1) funded

2) top-tier

3) uniquely suited to your interests

You can go to some evangelical seminary or a random university, but you'll pay a ton, get second-rate training, and have slim job prospects. I have an unaccredited MA, so I'm repeating my master's at Villanova University, with the intention of doing PhD work at Notre Dame or a British school.

Also, if you don't want to be a pastor, there's no reason to get an MDiv. An MA or MAR or MTS would be a better choice.


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## T.A.G. (May 4, 2011)

MDiv wont get you into a PhD there, you will need to get an MDiv and or a MA in something. At Sebts the the Christian Ministry MdDiv has 30 hours and I am using half to get the MA in Philosophy of Religion


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## Wayne (May 4, 2011)

Go to WSCAL, based partly on proximity and partly on a more rigorous curriculum, 
then head to some school in Scotland for your doctorate, selecting the school based
upon your chosen degree field, the likely dissertation topic and the best advisor available.


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## mjmacvey (May 4, 2011)

I don’t have much time to comment now, but I would be happy to talk with a little more about Westminster Seminary California. Feel free to email me [email protected] or call 888/480/8474 x106. We have sent graduates to at least 3 of the schools you mentioned for PHD studies along with some other notable schools here in the U.S. and overseas like Oxford (3 of our faculty members went to Oxford), Cambridge, St. Andrews. Students who have excelled (academically) in our programs, produced good writing samples, and secured solid references from our faculty have not had too much trouble getting accepted into post-graduate programs. Your degree from Cal would certainly help you get admitted to PHD programs as well.

The advantage of a graduate theological degree (either MDIV or MA) from WTS or WSC is that our programs provide sufficient exposure to all of the theological disciplines (Greek/Hebrew, Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology, Historical Theology/Church History, Practical Theology) for our graduates to pursue a variety of interests at the post-graduate level. You won't find anything like that in university graduate programs. You would also get an education that is very rigorous (arguably as challenging as university programs) within the confessional Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.


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## ReadBavinck (May 4, 2011)

Go to WSCal. WSCal has an established pattern of graduating students who are accepted into the best Ph.D. programs in the US and abroad. Call the admissions office, they can tell you more.

[Update: Guess Mark beat me to the punch. Give Mark a call. He'll be able to help.]


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## Damon Rambo (May 5, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> If you have academic career aspirations, don't go to any PhD program that isn't:
> 
> 1) funded
> 
> ...


 
I would disagree with some of what you said here. In regards to where you get your PhD., it would depend upon where you desire to teach. At a bunch of seminaries, a degree from a known, liberal "top tier" school, might as well be an unaccredited degree. For instance, if you want to teach at most Baptist seminaries, a Post graduate degree from somewhere like Harvard or Notre Dame can be a mark against you. I have heard a board member say that they will not even consider someone with a secular/non seminary Ph.D.


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## Claudiu (May 5, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Also, if you don't want to be a pastor, there's no reason to get an MDiv. An MA or MAR or MTS would be a better choice.


 
That's what I thought too. I was told by a friend that I need an MDiv before I get a Th.M. so that's why I said MDiv. I know an MDiv is for ministry, that's why I was a bit confused. Also, the WTS site says "A student who holds a baccalaureate degree and the M.Div. degree, or first graduate theological degree providing equivalent theological background...receives the degree of Master of Theology (Th.M.) on the completion of the prescribed program of study."

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mjmacvey said:


> I don’t have much time to comment now, but I would be happy to talk with a little more about Westminster Seminary California. Feel free to email me [email protected] or call 888/480/8474 x106. We have sent graduates to at least 3 of the schools you mentioned for PHD studies along with some other notable schools here in the U.S. and overseas like Oxford (3 of our faculty members went to Oxford), Cambridge, St. Andrews. Students who have excelled (academically) in our programs, produced good writing samples, and secured solid references from our faculty have not had too much trouble getting accepted into post-graduate programs. Your degree from Cal would certainly help you get admitted to PHD programs as well.
> 
> The advantage of a graduate theological degree (either MDIV or MA) from WTS or WSC is that our programs provide sufficient exposure to all of the theological disciplines (Greek/Hebrew, Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology, Historical Theology/Church History, Practical Theology) for our graduates to pursue a variety of interests at the post-graduate level. You won't find anything like that in university graduate programs. You would also get an education that is very rigorous (arguably as challenging as university programs) within the confessional Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.


 
I will call you tomorrow. Thanks for the post.


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## CharlieJ (May 5, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I would disagree with some of what you said here. In regards to where you get your PhD., it would depend upon where you desire to teach. At a bunch of seminaries, a degree from a known, liberal "top tier" school, might as well be an unaccredited degree. For instance, if you want to teach at most Baptist seminaries, a Post graduate degree from somewhere like Harvard or Notre Dame can be a mark against you. I have heard a board member say that they will not even consider someone with a secular/non seminary Ph.D.



A degree from a top-tier school is never a mark against you with people who matter. You don't want to work for a school that doesn't value the most rigorous scholarship. (I went to Bob Jones University and they said they wouldn't take me back if I went to a liberal school like Westminster.) I went to GPTS, which has to be just about the most conservative Reformed seminary on the planet, and they highly support me applying to top-tier programs. By the way, neither Notre Dame nor Yale are liberal. ND is Catholic, and Yale is post-liberal. That distinction matters to people who know things and make big decisions. 



Claudiu said:


> That's what I thought too. I was told by a friend that I need an MDiv before I get a Th.M. so that's why I said MDiv. I know an MDiv is for ministry, that's why I was a bit confused. Also, the WTS site says "A student who holds a baccalaureate degree and the M.Div. degree, or first graduate theological degree providing equivalent theological background...receives the degree of Master of Theology (Th.M.) on the completion of the prescribed program of study."



You don't need a ThM either. The normal course is MA-PhD, assuming that your MA is from an academically rigorous program designed to furnish a basis for higher studies. For people who have an MDiv, which is considered a professional rather than an academic degree, they usually can't jump straight into a PhD. So, the ThM is designed as a stepping-stone. For you, if you don't want to pastor, you just need a rock-star MA or MTS program. The MTS at Notre Dame and at Duke are probably the strongest programs in the nation for preparing PhD candidates. Of course, some Reformed schools offer good programs as well.


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## Reformed Thomist (May 5, 2011)

You _may_ want to think about the Toronto School of Theology (TST) in the University of Toronto. It'd be a prestigious graduate degree -- U of T is arguably the most prestigious university in Canada -- at fraction of the cost of the major U.S. schools you mention. 

Seven historic U of T colleges (U of T is comprised of a federation of colleges on one big campus, sort of like Oxford) comprise TST. Each is associated with an historic mainline denomination, but is wide-open to students of other denoms.

_Emmanuel College_ (United Church of Canada; probably the most liberal TST college).

_Wycliffe College_ (Anglican Church of Canada; Evangelical Anglican; probably the most conservative school of the bunch, and my humble recommendation. I know some Reformed Baptists who study there).

_Trinity College_ (Anglican Church of Canada; liberal Anglo-Catholic).

_Knox College_ (Presbyterian Church of Canada; seems to be a mix of liberalism and neo-orthodoxy).

_Regis College_ (RCC - Jesuit).

_St. Michael's College_ (RCC - Basilian).

_St. Augustine's Seminary_ (RCC - Diocesan).


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## Claudiu (May 5, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> The MTS at Notre Dame and at Duke are probably the strongest programs in the nation for preparing PhD candidates. Of course, some Reformed schools offer good programs as well.


 
I was thinking Reformed because...

---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

...


mjmacvey said:


> The advantage of a graduate theological degree (either MDIV or MA) from WTS or WSC is that our programs provide sufficient exposure to all of the theological disciplines (Greek/Hebrew, Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology, Historical Theology/Church History, Practical Theology) for our graduates to pursue a variety of interests at the post-graduate level. You won't find anything like that in university graduate programs. You would also get an education that is *very rigorous* (arguably as challenging as university programs) *within the confessional Reformed/Presbyterian tradition*.




---------- Post added at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 AM ----------

Also, how much does GPA play into acceptance at these places?


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (May 5, 2011)

GPA is a major factor with any sort of graduate studies, particularly doctorate level studies. There's a large field for people wanting to get into the schools you want to go into, and the schools will have limited stipend funding for students in those programs. As such, it is very competitive. I can't speak for Westminster Cal, but I do know that unless your GPA is over a 3.5 from graduate level studies, you may have a hard time getting into the schools previously mentioned for Ph.D studies.


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## Damon Rambo (May 5, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > I would disagree with some of what you said here. In regards to where you get your PhD., it would depend upon where you desire to teach. At a bunch of seminaries, a degree from a known, liberal "top tier" school, might as well be an unaccredited degree. For instance, if you want to teach at most Baptist seminaries, a Post graduate degree from somewhere like Harvard or Notre Dame can be a mark against you. I have heard a board member say that they will not even consider someone with a secular/non seminary Ph.D.
> ...


 
That is simply not true, especially in Baptist circles. You look at the top non-liberal Seminaries in the country, and count how many of their faculty have secular Ph.D.s' ...not many. At Southern, for instance, I think I counted three...

http://www.sbts.edu/documents/Catalog_complete.pdf

One guy from Duke. Didn't see any other "top tier" schools, though I might have missed one. 

I can do the same thing with other conservative seminaries as well...


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## CharlieJ (May 5, 2011)

Damon, just in the SBTS School of Theology, I found PhD's and post-doctoral studies from the following top-tier institutions: University of Basel, Johns Hopkins, Emory, Vanderbilt, Univ. of Toronto, Univ. Cambridge, Columbia, St. Andrews, Univ. Chicago, Princeton TS, Tübingen.

So, I don't think there's any deep bias against secular schools. Now, the point is simple. Nobody can guarantee a job upon graduation, but if you go to a top-tier school, you have a much better chance. The top programs have 70%+ of their grads in tenure-track positions within a few years of graduation. I'd like to know those statistics for SBTS or WTS or TEDS - I suspect they are far lower. Further, if you have a degree from a top-tier institution, you have a much wider potential base of employment. If you go to SBTS for a PhD, only SBTS or one of its sister schools will hire you. That's a tremendously small pool for such a packed job market. 

The funding is the other thing. I'm getting a full scholarship plus a generous stipend just to go to school and be a research assistant. That means that I have much more time and energy to devote to my research than do the guys at evangelical seminaries, who are paying 10-30K per year and working on the side. The difference in quality is not hard to spot. 

Anyone who wants to get a PhD is insane, unless they are independently wealthy. But some choices are more insane than others. Paying your way through an evangelical seminary to get a second-rate degree with poor job prospects is incredibly insane. 

By the way, my church history professor, who has taught in Christian colleges and seminaries for over 4 decades, made me promise not to go to a seminary for my PhD.


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## mjmacvey (May 5, 2011)

Claudiu said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> > The MTS at Notre Dame and at Duke are probably the strongest programs in the nation for preparing PhD candidates. Of course, some Reformed schools offer good programs as well.
> ...


 
GPA is a significant factor for admission to PHD programs, especially here in the U.S. I do not believe it is quite as much of a consideration with the U.K. schools. I think the 3.5 mentioned above is a good baseline, but you should strive for a 3.75+ to leave little doubt. I know of at least one WSC graduate who got admitted to Oxford with a GPA around 3.25, but I am sure that is an exception. 

The GRE is also a significant consideration for Universities here in the U.S.

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---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------




CharlieJ said:


> Damon, just in the SBTS School of Theology, I found PhD's and post-doctoral studies from the following top-tier institutions: University of Basel, Johns Hopkins, Emory, Vanderbilt, Univ. of Toronto, Univ. Cambridge, Columbia, St. Andrews, Univ. Chicago, Princeton TS, Tübingen.
> 
> So, I don't think there's any deep bias against secular schools. Now, the point is simple. Nobody can guarantee a job upon graduation, but if you go to a top-tier school, you have a much better chance. The top programs have 70%+ of their grads in tenure-track positions within a few years of graduation. I'd like to know those statistics for SBTS or WTS or TEDS - I suspect they are far lower. Further, if you have a degree from a top-tier institution, you have a much wider potential base of employment. If you go to SBTS for a PhD, only SBTS or one of its sister schools will hire you. That's a tremendously small pool for such a packed job market.
> 
> ...


 
I have to agree with Charlie here. If there is a bias in seminary hiring of professors, it is more often related to where the applicants did their MA/MDIV work then where they did their PHD work. Conservative Bible colleges/seminaries want to see a solid foundation a the master's level that fits with their particular theological commitments.

If anything, there may be a bias against hiring folks who have done their PHD work at seminary PHD programs. The rate at which places like WTS, SBTS, TEDS, etc. are turning out PHD candidates has flooded the applicant pool and decreased the prestige of the degree. The folks that received degrees at top-tier institutions will stand out in the hiring process.


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## Claudiu (May 5, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Anyone who wants to get a PhD is insane, unless they are independently wealthy. But some choices are more insane than others. Paying your way through an evangelical seminary to get a second-rate degree with poor job prospects is incredibly insane.


 
What about the Financial Support from Notre Dame? 


> Graduate Fellowships and Assistantships
> 
> Most students receive a departmental graduate fellowship that includes a full-tuition scholarship and an annual stipend (for students starting in 2009-2010 this is $17,000).



Aren't there more schools that do this?


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## CharlieJ (May 5, 2011)

There are two major types of graduate programs:

1) really good schools that are highly selective and offer great resources and funding

2) not as good schools that will take just about anyone who can afford it

Which one do you want?

Of course, that's different outside the US. Outside the US you'll pay a pretty penny for your PhD, unless you can dig up your own funding sources. The advantage is that European PhDs tend to be shorter and more mentor-oriented.


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