# My daughter is struggling with the problem of evil



## Pergamum (Aug 8, 2021)

My daughter is 14. She has not adjusted well to all of our moves after I got sick. From 2 different Asian countries and then the US now. She saw her dad try to serve God and almost die because of it and now is having trouble with the problem of evil (how can a good God allow evil. What sort of sick being ordains suffering for His own glory). She is finding the platitudes we use to "solve" the problem of evil to be cliched and offensive. God could have created a world with no evil and suffering and still have His Creation praise Him. She finds the idea of hell repulsive.

Any advice? Any resources for young adults? The John Piper line of explanation is not satisfying to her ("Don't waste your cancer" etc). Evil is....well, evil and the pains of the world are preventable by God and yet He not only allows it but all suffering is ordained by God. 

First, pray for her, my Little Alethea. I would gladly die for her and I worry about her. Second, I also struggled with this same problem. Third, I need something that fully acknowledges the problem and does not treat it smugly or fault the person struggling with the problem of evil. It is a true problem...but it is only our problem for in atheism there is no moral good or evil but mere chance random meaningless suffering. 

She asked a camp counselor and other pastors for explanations, but the answers were all surface-level and seemed to be a means to shut her up and not fully engage the problem. "Just have faith" drives her further from it and seems a cop out to her (and also me). I plan to eat sushi and ramen with her several times this coming week (daddy-daughter dates) and I hope she continues to talk to me (she talked 2 hours with me last week and seemed disappointed with me when I had to stop to pack for this latest trip for speaking. 

God, please save my little Ali, my heart hurts for her and longs for her good. And I feel terrible that her worries about my own illness has helped her to question God's ways. I am still alive, after all, and God has not only delivered me from hell but also has allowed me the privilege to help others.

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## Gwallard (Aug 8, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> My daughter is 14. She has not adjusted well to all of our moves after I got sick. From 2 different Asian countries and then the US now. She saw her dad try to serve God and almost die because of it and now is having trouble with the problem of evil (how can a good God allow evil. What sort of sick being ordains suffering for His own glory). She is finding the platitudes we use to "solve" the problem of evil to be cliched and offensive. God could have created a world with no evil and suffering and still have His Creation praise Him. She finds the idea of hell repulsive.
> 
> Any advice? Any resources for young adults? The John Piper line of explanation is not satisfying to her ("Don't waste your cancer" etc). Evil is....well, evil and the pains of the world are preventable by God and yet He not only allows it but all suffering is ordained by God.
> 
> ...


Brother, I'm not at all sure if this will help: I had a similar problem with a friend, and the answers I gave were not satisfactory for him. The difference being I doubt anything would be satisfactory to him besides his desire for his design for the universe: he thought he was a better designer than God, and so he said everything was random and absurd. He said it could not possibly be the greatest of all possible worlds, because he could conceive of a world without evil and suffering.

My answer was to agree that I could conceive of that world myself, but that doesnt mean that this is not the greatest of all consequent worlds. Once God determined to create a world with the story of redemption as a glorifying story for Himself, there was no better - no greater - conception of the world and it's story. This is an inference from Murray's Divine Consequent Necessity in "Redemption Accomplished and Applied."

Although it was unsatisfactory to him because of his idols, he also admitted that the presence of evil revealed God more than we would have seen Him without the presence of evil. This is a grace of God, and gives God glory in a way impossible without evil's presence. I think Augustine answered in this way (I can't remember where). But ultimately, I can't see into His secret counsel, I can just defend what God clearly states in Scripture with reasonable defenses.

More than those, I will pray for the demonstration of the Spirit and power, brother. Our faith does not consist in talk of problems, but in God's overwhelming power. In that I hope for your daughter and my friend.

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## Phil D. (Aug 8, 2021)

Perhaps you've already read it, but in my formative years as a Christian I found great help with this general realm of thought in C.S. Lewis' _The Problem of Pain_. It's both philosophical and theological, and I found his insights convincing. I think deep-thinking young adults would probably find it understandable as well. Praying for your dear Alethea now.

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## Smeagol (Aug 8, 2021)

Will pray Perg. Know that is it a blessing to have a young daughter willing to think critically about these things.

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## lynnie (Aug 8, 2021)

I don't think anything helps except to grasp that Jesus Christ suffered the entire curse of the fall for us, and suffered more than any person ever has. In that short time on the cross he had to bear somehow every grief and sorrow and abuse and physical suffering and torture and rape and a parent dying or a child or spouse dying, and poverty and decay and anything the fall ushered in. Years ago I asked my old PCA pastor- smart WTS grad- if he bore eternity in hell in some non understandable way, and the pastor looked at me kind of surprised I had asked and said "of course". 

I heard a guy once say ( he was a creep in general) that he just couldn't see the big deal about the crucifixion. Lots of guys were crucified, and it only lasted less than one day....it was bad but some people have suffered far worse. I suspect that his attitude is not unique. I don't know that teenagers really grasp what it meant to die for our sins and what he had to suffer. He suffered worse than any human who is a victim of evil ever has. It helped me tremendously as an adult with my inner childhood wounds when I grasped this concept. 

I would talk to her about the Lord, get her focus back on Jesus. The fact that she wants to talk to you is amazing and wonderful. I'll be praying too.

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## JennyGeddes (Aug 8, 2021)

I will pray, dear brother, for you and your little Alethea.


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## OPC'n (Aug 8, 2021)

This is a very real fear for her. It would be a tremendous fear for adults much less for a teenager who is learning how to become a woman with you by her side. Your illness has shaken her foundation of security. She still need her daddy for a long time. It's not good enough that you're still alive because what if God takes you away from her next time? She's drowning in fear and is trying to find solid ground on which to stand by debating theologically the evil in this world. I wouldn't throw theology at her and tell her to accept it as God's will. Even David cried to God about his feelings of fear and hopelessness and told God to intervene. She needs to be able to sit down with you and tell you about everything she fears about your illness and how it effects her life. Remind her that it's ok to cry and be angry about you being ill to the point of death. The important thing is to not stay there in that fear and anger. You need to tell her about your fears and your doubts but then tell her how in your weakness Christ is your strength. God doesn't call any of his children to have a stiff upper lip. She needs to be told that her fears are real and justified. She needs to be told that she doesn't have to resolve those fears by a good understanding of theology. Good theology won't heal her only Christ can. It's ok for her to come to you and express her fears at any time and she will be received with grace and understanding and compassion by you and your wife. It's ok for her to go to God and tell him about her fears how she doesn't understand why he would allow you to be sick all the time and nearly take you away from her. She needs to acknowledge to God that she doesn't want to lose you and in herself she couldn't endure that pain. She needs to know that God is her Heavenly Father and tell him to rise up with his mighty arm and comfort her. This is real and it won't be solved by true and good theology. It sounds like she knows true and good theology and that's good. What she needs to know right now is that you are her father who will protect her and provide for her and you will do that through Christ who is your strength. Emulate a childlike dependence on Christ for her to learn by your example and at the same time being her strong, protective father using words like, "I'm your father and I will take care of you and protect you. I want you to acknowledge your fears about my illness to me and your mother but it's so necessary for you to acknowledge them to Christ too. We are a family owned by Christ and he will do great things no matter how many times we fail him or don't believe he's doing all things for our good or can't see our way to his healing hand. We're in this together you're not alone.".

I've been praying for you but I'll add your family to my prayers. These are really tough times for you but God has you and your family in his hand. Read tons of Psalms which talk about David's fears and feelings of hopelessness and his call to God to rise up and save him. God demands that we be weak in ourselves so that Christ can be strong in us. It's super tough....lots of tears and that's ok we all are learning to lean on him and he has to snatch us back to himself all the time.

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## LilyG (Aug 9, 2021)

As her beautiful name means "truth," may she find comfort and rest in the truth of Christ's work and love for her and the world, Who is not only with us in our suffering, but bore the greatest, most unimaginable weight of suffering to reverse the curse (!) and will one day eradicate all disasterous effects of the Fall, and wipe all our tears away.

Glory be to God!

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## Ethan (Aug 9, 2021)

I’ve been meditating on WCF 3.1 recently and found it to be tremendously insightful. “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”


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## Christopher Robin (Aug 9, 2021)

We fallen humans tend to think of sin as just the inevitable slip of creatures who can't help themselves, rather than as the hideous act of cosmic treason that it really is. The consequences of sin - pain, suffering, tragedy, death - _demonstrate_ the sheer catastrophic evil that sin really is. It isn't God's goodness that is really in question, but how evil is evil? God's justice and sin's evilness are shown in the ultimate consequences of human rebellion.

God may be charged with not only being just, but also with _non-justice_, since He shows mercy to sinners in Christ. But God cannot be charged with *in*justice. The wonder is not that God shows mercy to some and justice to the rest, but rather that He shows mercy to _anyone at all_. We just don't see sin and justice the way our Creator does, so we tend to charge God with being "unfair" from a sinner's point of view. 

*Only once in all of history has an innocent man suffered unjustly.* And it wasn't a baby killed by abortion, or a child starved in a famine or sold into slavery or killed in an act of genocide. It was on the cross, where the _only_ _innocent who ever lived_ was tortured and murdered for crimes He didn't commit. _My_ crimes. _My_ cosmic treason. 

We really can't see things the way they really are, as God sees them and defines and describes them. But we can see the sinfulness of sin in the fruit that it bears. And that helps us appreciate both the justice and the mercy of our holy God.

Like Alethea, I too have been repulsed by the justice of God, because I simply didn't agree with Him about the sinfulness of sin. But the sinfulness of sin is shown in it's consequences, and we fallen rebels just don't want to see it. But forced to see it, perhaps in the sickness and/or loss of a loved one, we may confront our own biased view of sin, suffering, and justice to finally see it as it is. Once we do, and are converted, we become grateful for _both_ God's justice _and_ His mercy.

Praying for Alethea.

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## Irenaeus (Aug 9, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> Although it was unsatisfactory to him because of his idols, he also admitted that the presence of evil revealed God more than we would have seen Him without the presence of evil. This is a grace of God, and gives God glory in a way impossible without evil's presence. I think Augustine answered in this way (I can't remember where). But ultimately, I can't see into His secret counsel, I can just defend what God clearly states in Scripture with reasonable defenses.



Bavinck also makes this assertion - something to the effect that "grace is magnified by sin". I think it's early in Volume 3 of his Reformed Dogmatics.

EDIT: I'm not able, at a quick glance, to find the exact place in Bavinck that I'm talking about. I thought it was somewhere in ch. 5 of Vol. 3, but I'd have to dig through notes from several years ago.

However, at the beginning of the chapter he talks about how people look for a savior in response to the problem that they see. @Pergamum perhaps there is some way to show your daughter that Christ is the only answer to the problem she sees. I don't know. I will be praying. It must be heart-wrenching to see your daughter struggling in this way.


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## Ben Zartman (Aug 9, 2021)

If this world were perfect now, we might not long for the one that is.
There's a Spongebob episode where Squidward finds a squid village that has everything his heart desires--canned bread, dance, jazz, and no annoying neighbors. It's fine for a while, but soon he goes nuts because there's no external affliction to distract him from the inky darkness of his own soul.
Until we ourselves are perfected, to live with our remaining sin in a place of absolute perfection simply wouldn't work.
I have a 14yo daughter as well. My best times with any of my girls at this stage is when I can get each one alone for a special trip, be it merely a walk in the forest or a day on the boat or a shopping trip without their sisters around. It means the world to them. Treasure this time, Perg, when she does want to commune with you--it won't last forever.


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## greenbaggins (Aug 9, 2021)

Perg, take this for what it's worth, which may not be much. It doesn't sound like her real problem is evil in general. That may be the presenting issue. But it appears to come from things that have happened to her world, which in turn gives her empathy with the world's suffering. This particular thing is actually wonderful, because it puts her in an analogous situation to how God sees the mess humanity has gotten itself into. The temptation, of course, is to put the blame in the wrong place. Humanity is to blame, and her righteous anger needs to be directed against the right target: sin. Then, if the empathy can be seen to be analogous to God's compassion, then the cross as an answer to evil is the next place to go, since there Jesus bore the evil on His own shoulders. God is not merely a cosmic spectator to the evil in the world. Here, Joseph as a type can help out. He said that the brothers meant _it_ (his being sold as a slave) for evil, but God meant _it_ (the very same action!) for good. It is thus exceedingly important to distinguish between an action and the intent of the person doing it. The cross was the most evil thing to happen ever in human history. And yet look at the good God has brought out of it. Even more than bringing good out of it, God overturned the evil for good. And that is the fundamental way God deals with evil. 

Perspectives matter here, too. We see evil as still having a place in this world, because we are time-bound creatures. God is not time-bound. Therefore, from God's perspective evil is already, in principle, eradicated from this world. We are impatient creatures, wanting to see it done right now. But God has His reasons for allowing evil to continue until the Second Coming, not the least of which is the vast increase of population in the kingdom of God that has happened. 

When a person comes to a place where your daughter is, one of the key aspects of the problem is that she has distanced herself from the story of the world. She is looking at the world as if she is not in it, because if she were, it would be too painful, and she is trying desperately to avoid that kind of pain. Hopefully, a line of thinking like the above will plug her back in to the story.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Aug 9, 2021)

I will pray for your family Preg. 

One resource I remember that addresses this uniquely is Tim Kellers "Reasons for God". He interacts with unbelievers in NYC and answers some of these questions. I haven't read this next one but John Lennox is fantastic on many subjects. He co-wrote a book called 'Suffering Lifes Pain" in which a lecture he did to medical students can be found here: Veritas Forum - Lennox Lecture on Suffering to Med School Students

This one topic is one that keeps many of my friends and family away from Christianity. Its mainly due to many family members dying of cancer or other physical ailments & among other things. I think it's a question that is hard to answer satisfactory for somebody either struggling or observing somebody struggling with suffering. 

These might be the cliche answers but its how I approach the topic:

My typical response is that God's character should be reflected in our own character and actions regardless of circumstances. Being sojourners and strangers to the world and living the Christian life can result in suffering from others actions. But persevering through suffering is how God displays his power. I believe it's because we have a heartfelt devotion that cannot be shaken by circumstances. Outward conformity to the law without heartfelt devotion does not drive this level of commitment since its not rooted in love. This is a mark of a christian in which we are to celebrate if we suffer since its an opportunity to reflect God's glory in our circumstances and weaknesses. 

These might be the cliche answers but its how I approach the topic:

1. Good cannot exist without the sense of evil -- "How do you know a deed is unjust without contrasting it with the Just" 
2. God remains good even under tremendous amounts of suffering caused by evil -- "Jesus' life, ministry and death on the cross" 
3. Being image bearers of God we are to reflect his character even under tremendous amounts of suffering 
4. Being capable of reflecting God's glory through your heartfelt devotion to our LORD glorifies him more and displays his power in you. 
5. Suffering also strengthens character and produces more fruit


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## Gwallard (Aug 9, 2021)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> These might be the cliche answers but its how I approach the topic:
> 
> 1. Good cannot exist without the sense of evil -- "How do you know a deed is unjust without contrasting it with the Just"



My brothers can correct me, but isn't this Manichaeism, Robert? (Considering God is goodness himself) Our knowledge of God as creatures has been helped by the contrast of evil with God's goodness, but God needs no contrast either to be known or to exist.

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## greenbaggins (Aug 9, 2021)

I don't know if this will speak for Robert, but he did say "the _sense_ of evil," not evil itself. God Himself knows and defines what good and evil are. It would be impossible for God not to know what evil is, if He has always defined good and evil.

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## KMK (Aug 9, 2021)

I know he's an old dead guy, but how about reading Obadiah Sedgwick's "The Doubting Believer" together with her? I can't recommend it enough for adults, but it might be hard reading for a 14 year old. Reading it together might bless you both.


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## Pergamum (Aug 9, 2021)

KMK said:


> I know he's an old dead guy, but how about reading Obadiah Sedgwick's "The Doubting Believer" together with her? I can't recommend it enough for adults, but it might be hard reading for a 14 year old. Reading it together might bless you both.


What?!?! You want me to read?!?

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## RobertPGH1981 (Aug 9, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> My brothers can correct me, but isn't this Manichaeism, Robert? (Considering God is goodness himself) Our knowledge of God as creatures has been helped by the contrast of evil with God's goodness, but God needs no contrast either to be known or to exist.



I really don't know much about Manichaeism and had to look it up. I am not sure what you feel is Manichaeism from what I said. I don't think God created good and evil. God is good and in him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). What I said should not to be confused with matter being evil itself which seem to be part of the Manichaeism belief system. There also seems to be a concept of reincarnation in the belief system too which I would reject. Over all I don't know all the nuisances of the system and would be happy to receive correction in my understanding though.

With that said, to clarify further -

God knows what evil is prior ot the fall and gives Adam & Eve the tree of knowledge of good and evil as part of the covenant of works (Gen 2:17). They were told if they eat the fruit of the tree they would know good and evil (Gen 3:5). Trusting in our Lord, the truth, with heartfelt devotion is in perfect harmony with God like Adam and Eve were prior to the fall. However, trusting in one's own subjective morality is contrary to God and is revealed as evil resulting in spiritual death and being cutoffs from God's presence. So in a sense you can say God is good since the bible describes him as pure light without darkness (1 John 1:5).

My point about suffering is that its the result of sin in the world rooted in the fall and the sinful actions of man. God uses all things for Good "for those called according to his purposes". He does this by magnifying his glory through suffering by demonstrating his power in us. This is because circumstances do not govern the Christians responses and behaviors since we have Christ in us. By heartfelt devotion we place all our trust and faith in him over against our sinful thoughts. A christians unwavering devotion to him is contrasted by the sinful person being tossed like waves in the sea. Do we trust in God alone despite circumstances and weakness or do we trust in self. Suffering magnifies this in the believer magnifying God's glory. 

1 Cor 12:1-10: Matt 5:11-12;

Versus 11,12 regarding persecution and suffering in the sermon on the mount talk then transition in how we be light and salt. Being poor in spirit are those who recognize their sinful state and strive to be more conformed to the likeness of God, as image bearers. Its a contrast been light and darkness. Those of the light are hated by those in darkness since light reveals darkness, but those stepping into the light may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:20-21)



> "These “poor” or “poor in spirit” (meek) occur again and again in the Old Testament, particularly in the Psalms and in the prophets. They represent the socially oppressed, those who suffer from the power of injustice and are harassed by those who only consider their own advantage and influence. *They are, however, at the same time those who remain faithful to God and expect their salvation from his kingdom alone. They do not answer evil with evil, nor oppose injustice with injustice. That is why in the midst of the ungodliness and worldly-mindedness of others, they form the true people of God.* As such they are again and again comforted with the promise of the coming salvation of the Lord and the manifestation of his kingly redemption (cf. Ps. 22:27; 25:9; 34:3; 37:11; 72:12, 13; 147:6; Isaiah 11:4; 29:19, etc.)."



Ridderbos, H. (1962). The Coming of the Kingdom. (R. O. Zorn, Ed., H. de Jongste, Trans.) (pp. 188–189). Philadelphia, PA: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company.


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## Jeri Tanner (Aug 9, 2021)

In her high school years, one of my daughters walked away from what had seemed to be a solid profession of faith. The problem of pain/suffering was one of the big issues she named. (Her brother had died when she was a child.) 
But what I didn’t know is that long before she spoke to me about her growing doubts, she had been getting on hostile-to-Christianity forums and websites for answers, and her heart had hardened considerably. Just bringing it up in case a similar thing could be going on with Alethea.


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## KMK (Aug 9, 2021)

Jeri Tanner said:


> In her high school years, one of my daughters walked away from what had seemed to be a solid profession of faith. The problem of pain/suffering was one of the big issues she named. (Her brother had died when she was a child.)
> But what I didn’t know is that long before she spoke to me about her growing doubts, she had been getting on hostile-to-Christianity forums and websites for answers, and her heart had hardened considerably. Just bringing it up in case a similar thing could be going on with Alethea.



So sorry for yours and her loss, Jeri.

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## jwright82 (Aug 9, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> My brothers can correct me, but isn't this Manichaeism, Robert? (Considering God is goodness himself) Our knowledge of God as creatures has been helped by the contrast of evil with God's goodness, but God needs no contrast either to be known or to exist.


 No, I see your point but Manichaeism says God and evil are equal but opposing forces in creation. It may have been worded badly but the point is, if I can speculate, that without a definite standard law of good and evil, neither term makes sense. If I misunderstood I apologize but that's what got from it.
Perg my prayers are with you and your daughter. First I'd like to say AMEN to all the previous responses that are all very good, so I don't know what more I can contribute but I'll try. At root this seems to be psychologically driven. So heady theological or philosophical answers aren't where to start.
It reminds me of a situation I completely messed up as a young apologist when a friend I was talking to me told me she couldn't believe in God because of how she had been raped and abused by men. She wanted to know why God did this to her? Being young and fresh out of studying Sproul's stuff on apologetics, tools in hand, I proceeded to lay out the logical problems of atheism and evil. I then went through laying out logical reasons why God can't be blamed for evil and on and on I went. None of it was affecting her and her nearly tearful eyes never changed.
I look back now and realize what I should have done was be a friend and hugged her and told her I was sorry for what she was going through. That was my failure. Years later I read Francis Schaeffer and learned to take in the situation and adjust my tactics to the individual problems at hand. 
Now one thing implied in several posts but not spelled out is the problem of hope. Perhaps your daughter has lost hope because of the evil she's experienced in her life. Acknowledging how important hope is to us creatures might be a good tactic to use. Admit upfront she's right about evil and how proud you are of her for recognizing evil for evil. 
I would take this approach rather than trying to get God out of the docket. Tell her that she knows well people caused this problem and that the problem is so bad creation itself is part of the problem (cancer, natural disasters, war, etc.) and how all our attempts to solve it the have failed. Thats because we can't see how bad the problem really is.
But there is one being that can, God, and he sees that this problem is so great that only he can come down to his creation and solve it for us on the cross. Sure he could stop the murderer dead in his tracks and sometimes he does. But the real solution is so great that only he can solve it by the son (who is God) taking on human nature and living a perfect life that we all failed to do. He then suffered and died for his people to ultimately and forever solve this problem. He then rose from the grave vindicated so that we can have the hope that our problem is forever solved, because God himself all three persons of trinity solved it for us. We have the hope that one day we will live in a new heavens and earth where there is no evil or suffering. 
Now when and if she responds in good Calvinist fashion that God is all sovereign, all knowing, all powerful say yes thats the only kind of being that we could hope to have solve the problem. Now the inevitable "why evil" question will come up and remind her its a mystery that God has not revealed to us and he is not required to. If she bucks at this remind her of some time one of her siblings did something she didn't like and she wanted to know why and they didn't tell her (revealed it to her). Its sort of the same thing. Tell her even though we don't know why God has given us hope that our problem is ultimately solved.
I know this is lengthy and maybe I missed the mark but I hope there's some nuggets in there that are useful. You know your daughter take and adjust what might work. God bless you and your family, I hope this situation works out.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 9, 2021)

Hey Perg, thanks for sharing what’s been going on in your family, especially with Alethea. It seems not so much “the problem of evil” as “the problem of God” – that is, she doesn’t know, trust, or like Him right now. We who are His regenerated children all know – all too well – the horrors of evil and pain in this world, yet we seek his face – His *presence* – for courage, wisdom, and *comfort* in the midst of them.

The problem of evil can’t be solved by good theodicies, though they may help the understanding. It can only be solved by God’s presence in her heart to comfort her in her anguish and guide her in her anger. For her unbelief-based anger is causing anguish in her (human) dad’s heart, and needs to be redirected against the sin and death that entered into our world and lives, _and her own heart_.

How will she know God’s presence to comfort and guide her heart? Most likely from *your* own soul (and her mom’s soul) open and near to hers, as you wrestle through this horror of pain with her that has afflicted her watching you burn alive as you yet still praise and hold fast to your King Jesus. It is God’s gift that she loves you and holds fast to you through all this.

It may well be the LORD will use what Alethea is deeply struggling with now – as He comforts her in and through it – by means of your witness and presence giving forth the sweet fragrance of Christ (2 Cor 1:3,4; 2:15,16). She may have a profound witness of courage and comfort to minister to others like her, with a deep, heartfelt anointing – a true spiritual daughter of yours.

Will be praying, Perg, for you both.


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## ZackF (Aug 9, 2021)

Without coming across as cheeky, it can be helpful to talk about the "problem" of good. What sense is there to be made of that? It is more pleasant to think about and is just as much a sticky question.

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## Pergamum (Aug 9, 2021)

ZackF said:


> Without coming across as cheeky, it can be helpful to talk about the "problem" of good. What sense is there to be made of that? It is more pleasant to think about and is just as much a sticky question.


Hmmmm.....interesting switcheroo. I will try that.


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## Smeagol (Aug 15, 2021)

Any update?


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## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2021)

Grant said:


> Any update?


Just the same. She is attending a private Christian school and is making good friends, so that is good.

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## Smeagol (Aug 15, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Just the same. She is attending a private Christian school and is making good friends, so that is good.


I was asking more about the sushi and ramen dates?


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## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2021)

Grant said:


> I was asking more about the sushi and ramen dates?


The last sushi date she just went on and on about school, nothing much deeper. But she did mention that sometimes people try to make God out to express their own opinions and even church people use God to push their own opinions and agendas, which is rather insightful and sadly true.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Aug 15, 2021)

I am still looking forward to the day when Noah and Alethea join PB and seek advice on how to deal with Perg. I predict that will be the longest PB thread in history.

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## JimmyH (Aug 15, 2021)

I'm not sure if there will be any comfort for your daughter in this dissertation by R.C. Sproul, but it is possible that she may benefit from seeing/hearing it.






And one more that may be helpful ;

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## ZackF (Aug 15, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I am still looking forward to the day when Noah and Alethea join PB and seek advice on how to deal with Perg. I predict that will be the longest PB thread in history.


I’m sure Perg will end up causing it to be locked way before then.


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## py3ak (Aug 15, 2021)

I think there are some simple points that are worth bearing in mind. It's wise to acknowledge that this is an old, universal, and very difficult problem. There's nothing wrong with having questions or concerns, or struggling. Job comes to mind, and so does Jeremiah. Arguing with God about drought is one form of wrestling with this problem.

Second, what's the alternative? Either we take up the standpoint of Paul, that we trust God and look to the judge of all the earth to do right, indeed, to define right and wrong, or we take up the absurd standpoint of passing judgment on God as though creatures could judge the Creator. If we do that, then we have an inexplicable problem of good. Is it better to have a system where good is basic and evil is the conundrum, or a system where good is the conundrum?

Third, whether we can understand the Lord's decisions or not, we can affirm that he didn't dodge the consequences of his own decisions. The curse that God pronounced in the garden fell on the Son of God on the cross. Evil is a problem; but it's not a problem God shuffled off onto us.

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## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I am still looking forward to the day when Noah and Alethea join PB and seek advice on how to deal with Perg. I predict that will be the longest PB thread in history.


I am still trying to figure out how to deal with Perg. He's a handful sometimes.


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## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2021)

py3ak said:


> I think there are some simple points that are worth bearing in mind. It's wise to acknowledge that this is an old, universal, and very difficult problem. There's nothing wrong with having questions or concerns, or struggling. Job comes to mind, and so does Jeremiah. Arguing with God about drought is one form of wrestling with this problem.
> 
> Second, what's the alternative? Either we take up the standpoint of Paul, that we trust God and look to the judge of all the earth to do right, indeed, to define right and wrong, or we take up the absurd standpoint of passing judgment on God as though creatures could judge the Creator. If we do that, then we have an inexplicable problem of good. Is it better to have a system where good is basic and evil is the conundrum, or a system where good is the conundrum?
> 
> Third, whether we can understand the Lord's decisions or not, we can affirm that he didn't dodge the consequences of his own decisions. The curse that God pronounced in the garden fell on the Son of God on the cross. Evil is a problem; but it's not a problem God shuffled off onto us.


Yes, this point seemed to gain some headway with her. The problem of evil IS, indeed, a problem, but is a Christian problem. If life is meaningless, then pain has no meaning and there is nothing redeeming about it. So she sees that atheism or nihilism is not a preferable solution. Without God there really is no objective good or evil, but she affirms that there is good and evil. She just has trouble with an all-good God allowing this much and this degree of evil.

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## Pergamum (Aug 15, 2021)

ZackF said:


> I’m sure Perg will end up causing it to be locked way before then.


Oh, but it'll be a lot of fun in the meantime, though!


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## greenbaggins (Aug 15, 2021)

While I am not a rabid fan of John Frame, he does have a helpful illustration here in his Doctrine of God. We can think of God and humanity as operating on different levels, much like Shakespeare and a character in one of his plays, say, Iago, to pick a particularly villainous character. Is Shakespeare responsible for the evil of Iago? Well, on one level, Shakespeare wrote the script. On the level of Iago within the play, however, Shakespeare is in no way responsible for the evil. Iago does not feel like he is part of a script (unless his part is read poorly!). Now, of course, all illustrations break down when pressed too far. Iago is a fictional character, whereas humans are not. And what is more, Shakespeare never becomes an actor in his own scripts, whereas God does transcend that divide and bears the evil of the world on His own shoulders. For me, the key point is that God and humans act on different levels. On God's level, He writes the script. Just because God wrote the script does not mean He approves of everything that happens in it, nor does He permit it to endure forever. On our level, we are responsible for our evil motivations. We do not blame Shakespeare for Iago's evil nature. 

To continue the analogy a bit further in a way that can help us get a glimpse of what God is doing, when an author writes a work of fiction, he usually includes "good guys" and "bad guys." He also includes harrowing situations, fraught with all manner of evil, which the protagonist has to overcome. It makes for a better story. If someone were to attempt a novel in which nothing bad ever happens, and everything is without a cloud in the sky the whole time, it would be very challenging to make it interesting. Now God could have written the script that way. I am sure that He is up to that challenge, just as He will be in the new heavens and new earth where no evil exists. However, He chose to write the script in such a way that His glorious attributes both of righteousness and of mercy/grace receive far more attention and acknowledgment. 

One last illustration along similar lines. One very effective way to hide a diamond is against a backdrop of something extremely similar, like water. If one wants to display that diamond, however, one puts it against a backdrop of black velvet, where the diamond will catch every ray of light that goes its way. Don't know if any of this will be helpful. I just throw it out there as some of the ways I have used to help people.

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## Logan (Aug 16, 2021)

Our kids periodically bring up this topic as well, asking why God allows there to be sin in the world.

I usually have a serious, solemn conversation something along the following lines, about why would we think we deserve anything less. All of us humans tend to get into the mindset that we deserve to be happy, to be entertained and never bored, to have all the food we want, and we forget that those things are blessings which we don't deserve at all. What we deserve is hell. Anything less is grace and mercy.

Why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin and bring this upon all of us? Well first, God is not to blame, Adam and Eve are. They freely chose to sin and they were the first, most perfect humans who ever existed so don't imagine that you or I would do anything less. Second, one possible reason is that it brings glory to God to be able to show his mercy on poor miserable sinners. There are many aspects to God's character and he is able to now show his pure and righteous justice against sin, and to show his mercy and compassion against those who repent of that sin. 

Ultimately, in some way (and I don't claim to know the exact reason), this displays God's glory and attributes more prominently than any other way, and I can be content knowing that it is righteous and just even if I don't understand all the details. But I certainly don't deserve better.


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## dnlcnwy (Aug 16, 2021)

I don't know if she is old enough for this yet, but at some point you have to let her know that whatever evil she (or you) experiences in her life is only a small fraction of what she deserves and has willingly brought on herself (against God's expressed desires for her life). In a mysterious way that we do not understand, this in no way compromises God's absolute control over the created order, but it wasn't a necessary part of her first parent's terms of existence or her's. We slapped God in the face at the fall and she was every bit as present in Adam as Adam himself when he/we did it. It is only a grace of God that the entire created order wasn't given over to hell at that very moment and a supreme grace of God that in spite of our current discomforts the world is gradually being transformed into a not so bad place to live and a remnant will be transformed once again into a state of indelible perfection to spend all eternity with him. Let her know point blank that while on a certain level God does not desire it for you that you deserve to suffer for what you are and have done no matter how many good works you have to your credit and so does she. It is hard nosed, direct confrontation and acceptance of these truths that attracted me to the reformed faith in the first place. Maybe 14 is old enough. Speaking for myself, I couldn't handle these truths until I was about 30 and had my nose rubbed in the excrement of my own sinfulness.

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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 16, 2021)

@Pergamum

Much good stuff here, but one that has helped me, and may help your daughter, Perg, is that we see things, necessarily, as creatures and very close-up. Bahnsen illustrated this with the jarring sight of a father grasping his tormented son, who was struggling to get away from a piercing needle. Up close it looks like sadistic torment but pulled back, we see that the father has tears rolling down his face while he holds his son whose bad cut is being sewn by a doctor.

The point is that we lack perspective. Yes, there's evil in the world, yes it hurts, yes it's hard to understand from our vantage point. We can rightly say that it stinks, and it does to God too. At the same time, God has greater purposes than we can discern in any given situation and we err when we judge him, as Cowper says, "by feeble sense." That hymn, "God Moves in a Mysterious Way" contains much wisdom, recognizing both the reality and pain of evil in the world, while understanding that it remains mysterious to us, who must, as creatures, "trust him for his grace."

BTW, one need not think that hymns should be sung in worship to appreciate the beauty and poetry of such a composition. This leads me to say about the Psalms: here you have an unparalleled expression of both horror at and prayer for relief from evil coupled with confessions of trust in God. Sometimes we just have to sit in darkness and wait for relief from Him (Ps. 88). There is nothing like the Psalms as a practical approach to the problem of evil. 

Peace,
Alan

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## De Jager (Aug 16, 2021)

This is a very important and sensitive topic and one that I have struggled with even recently.

I think it is important to keep some things in mind,

1. Our wisdom, compared to that of God is like that of an ant compared to Isaac Newton, except the difference is infinitely more pronounced than that. Just as a little baby cries and screams when receiving a vaccine (for it's good) so are we when we question God's goodness.

2. God is just, and will in the final analysis, make all things right. At present there are many evils and inequalities and things that are not just, but they will all be rectified, and in the final analysis not a single person will be able to say to God "you didn't do well" or "you did not treat us right".

3. It simply has to be accepted that there are some things that we will not be able to know and/or understand until we get to heaven. Until, then we are left with a choice - is God good? The Bible certainly presents him as good. Consider the character of God - "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Does this sound like the words of a capricious deity? Etc. At the end of the day we have to be satisfied with the character of God _as revealed in scripture_. Meditate on God's character, especially that of his character as revealed in Jesus Christ. Remember, "he who has seen me, has seen the father". He is good, he his just - these are abundantly clear from scripture - therefore what I do not understand I will leave in his capable hands and trust him that he is wise and good.

4. If we set up the standard that God has to pass our moral smell-test, then we have made ourselves out to be the judge or arbiter of morality, which is in fact setting ourselves up as God. This in fact is a sin and ought to be repented of. God confronts our morality, and not the other way around.


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## Jason F. (Aug 16, 2021)

I recently finished reading the 1541 edition of the Institutes. The last chapter on The Christian Life may be helpful here.


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## Grant Van Leuven (Aug 17, 2021)

I humbly offer how I and my four covenant children coped with losing my first wife and their birth mother five years ago this September to colon cancer (she was 38 and their ages then ranged from 3 to 12). We studied a book on Heaven and kept submitting ourselves to God's will, "Thy Will Be Done", free to humbly acknowledge it wasn't our will and free to grieve openly and often as Biblical and with Christ's example before He raised Lazarus (we learned in our Western culture many avoid grief and death and so avoided us). I have since remarried and been blessed with two more covenant sons. 

First, we simply must acknowledge God's sovereignty and bow to it without being able to answer "why"? This is one of the main lessons I've appreciated others have pointed out to us by Job: "Why" is never answered and God doesn't have to answer that. Rather than put Him to the test (for which we are forbidden) we must allow Him to test us and by His grace may He help us have the same resolve of Job especially early on but also learn the same lessons of Job and humble ourselves before our Maker and Redeemer. "Thy will be done" is what I prayed as I stepped forward to preach for and administer my first wife's burial service at her gravesite when all the children assisted me with throwing dirt onto her coffin before she was lowered into her earthy bed awaiting the resurrection. Submission to it though was where we got peace. And in the same way Jesus asked to have it removed but if not, "Thy will be done" as He gives us the example in the Garden but also in directions of the Lord's Prayer.

So along with considering the lessons from Job that wrestle with such concerns with God and getting to where God gets him (through the testing), we find our greatest resolve and peace with Romans 11:33-36: _O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen._

Here are a few things we went through over time that helped us submit to God's will and have peace in His Word and promises:









Puritan Reformed Presbyterian Church


Pastor Grant Van Leuven | San Diego, California




www.sermonaudio.com













Puritan Reformed Presbyterian Church


Pastor Grant Van Leuven | San Diego, California




www.sermonaudio.com




(This one I volunteered I had read the book while on our healing respite after we buried my first wife and that I needed to keep studying it because I needed help to get to a place of contentment in it all: so we went through it on a Wednesday study and it did help, and the section about wrestling with God about difficulties and pain is the most listened to section by far).

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7182121532502 "Delight to Bend Your Will to God's Will" (with Christ's example prophesied in Psalm 40 as referenced in Hebrews 10)
(this was to help one of our ladies face cancer treatment recently, and she said she was quoting it in the hospital and it helped and gave a witness)

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=2271711634 "Keep Changing the Way You Think"
(This is the first sermon I preached returning to Matthew after we lost my first wife after a long time of doing topical sermons to be able to handle the time; it was a very tough text to return to at that moment but exactly what we needed).

I would also volunteer that almost five years later while there is always grief and questioning when you submit to the Lord He takes you through it and you slowly get resolve and peace and hope. That is where we are now, especially because of the hope of heaven. And seeing how a seed buried in the ground produced new life. And by being able to do that we also had the courage to look for a new wife and Mommy and together do declare Proverbs 18:22 also to be true.

Also, I often was so concerned for my children, what this would do to them (I've though of sharing this related to a local church tragedy near us that has been spoken to on this site and some of cried over how the children would cope). I was greatly encouraged by something I read by Malcolm Gladwell: a high percentage of people who lose their parents in childhood become presidents and prime ministers: why? Because nothing worse could happen to you so anything else you can handle. Now, the other high percentage end up in prison. It is important for us as parents to pastor our children to Christ through the grief with their knees and hearts bowed before God and their eyes on heaven and the resurrection. It is important for them to see us openly grieve and struggle but also to submit before God and move forward for them to follow. I have often taken a child aside when great grief and questioning hit but I never left them there after helping them express their feelings: I always took them to God, submission to His will, and the Resurrection, and they always only had their peace by the entire process especially the last part. That being said, this sermon may be helpful to consider that Romans 8:28 really is true, including all the hard stuff including in our childhood including what we lose or see our parents lose: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=72918155531 "You Can Bring Beauty Out of Your Burdens" inspired by the story behind "I Can Only Imagine" which shares statistics per above by Malcolm Gladwell.

One last thing (and I'm just remembering as I type a lot of ways I ministered to the church, my children, and myself through our great grief and weary knees): https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=61917051235 "Let Your Sadness Bring Others Gladness." I preached it again when I brought my four children across the globe to Australia and in the sermon mentioned I didn't actually want to be there at that time (less than a year since our loss): https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=72517163225 It helped a lot to meditate on 1 Peter 4:19 that I came across in devotions and found especially profound.

Hope some of this might be helpful. I think it's important to let the pain and doubt and grief be allowed: but also that it all be pointed to Christ and God's sovereignty and the hope of God using all things for good and the saving of many lives (as Joseph attested to of his brother's evil). Submitting to God, with Christ as our example, I believe is the only way to peace through difficult providences (a favorite phrase I often borrow from a seminary professor).

I also thing turning to the time tested standards as quoted above is very very wise and helpful.

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## dhh712 (Aug 18, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> My daughter is 14. She has not adjusted well to all of our moves after I got sick. From 2 different Asian countries and then the US now. She saw her dad try to serve God and almost die because of it and now is having trouble with the problem of evil (how can a good God allow evil. What sort of sick being ordains suffering for His own glory). She is finding the platitudes we use to "solve" the problem of evil to be cliched and offensive. God could have created a world with no evil and suffering and still have His Creation praise Him. She finds the idea of hell repulsive.
> 
> Any advice? Any resources for young adults? The John Piper line of explanation is not satisfying to her ("Don't waste your cancer" etc). Evil is....well, evil and the pains of the world are preventable by God and yet He not only allows it but all suffering is ordained by God.
> 
> ...


Hey Pergamum. I'm sorry to hear this. It is so difficult when a family member struggles in his or her faith.

I struggle with this idea myself. I really can't stand the suffering in this world. It tears my heart out when I hear about infants/toddlers being mercilessly harmed by another. Another thing I can't stand is the thought of is eternal torment. Both these things I must confess just makes me sick and disgusted.

What helps me is to know when I think this way I am thinking that I am more merciful and know better than God. And I KNOW that is not true. It sure can seem that way from my perspective. But. I am a really limited being! I also have a really nice life which God has mercifully blessed me with. These things can and do really distort my way of looking at the world and understanding it.

I think a good many nonbelievers may have the idea that God is just some super smart person that happens to know a whole lot more than any other person on earth. I think sometimes we can slip this way in our understanding of God as well; for me at least, it's like Why in the world can't it just be like [this] (this being whatever I've put in place of what I don't like about the way God is doing something or what he has revealed about himself). I think though it might be helpful to really think about how vastly different God is from us; yes we are created in his image, but a somewhat not-so-great comparison might be comparing an old black-and-white photo to the actual living three-dimensional person. No analogy can really convey the enormous chasm which exists between us creatures and our God, but maybe this might help in understanding a bit.

It doesn't solve the problem really; I think I'll struggle with the problem of evil and be sickened at the the thought of eternal torment until the Lord finally calls me home to dwell with him in peace forever. But I think it might be a start. Just to understand how small and finite our limited minds are compared to the perfection and infinity of the wisdom of God. We really can't compare. We don't have even a candle to hold up to the light of God; our minds wouldn't even give that much light though we must think surely we must be a little bit closer to that, maybe a really bright flashlight compared to the sun--surely that would be a better comparison. But I just don't think it's that way.


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