# Reformed in a non-reformed church....



## BlackCalvinist (Mar 5, 2009)

In the process of writing an article on this issue and posting it.

So what's a reformed person in a non-reformed church missing ? What ends up happening to them ? What are the implications of their actions ?

Discuss.  

I already have a few things written up, but I'd like to see what else is on everyone's brains (I may have missed some things).


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## Scott1 (Mar 5, 2009)

Likely, the doctrines of grace, covenant theology, and a systematic theology of all of scripture that binds people together and forms a basis for their unity.


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## BJClark (Mar 5, 2009)

Church discipline when it's needed


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## jwithnell (Mar 5, 2009)

It felt to me like fellowship was impeded. Yes, I took a non-argumentative stance, but there was a constant feeling that we were always looking at the world differently.


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## Mayflower (Mar 5, 2009)

Regulative principle of worship!!!!!


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## Ezekiel3626 (Mar 5, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Likely, the doctrines of grace, covenant theology, and a systematic theology of all of scripture that binds people together and forms a basis for their unity.



I agree with Scott, and also I noticed that my worship was hindered. I must be the first to admit that the fault was my own, though. I was constantly frustrated, because I was missing out on the things that Scott has mentioned. Yet in all honesty, I knew those elements would be absent when I went there. As JWithnell said a moment ago, they viewed the world differently. I would listen to every word, and subconsciously pick apart every sentence, as if I were looking for them to say something "wrong". I believe it creates an attitude in one that they have "compromised", or "settled" for less than they believe in ("they" here meaning the reformed person attending).


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## Skyler (Mar 5, 2009)

BlackCalvinist said:


> In the process of writing an article on this issue and posting it.
> 
> So what's a reformed person in a non-reformed church missing ? What ends up happening to them ? What are the implications of their actions ?.



I suppose it depends upon the reformed person. I'm currently attending a non-reformed church, but I'm hoping that it won't be non-reformed for long. I'm already seeing some progress. 

Why move from a non-reformed church to a reformed one when you can just ask God to reform the one you've got?

Of course, if it's a church which isn't particularly focused on the Bible(not so in my case, thankfully), you may have to leave anyway--which, personally, I think I would do whether it was reformed or not.


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## Galatians220 (Mar 5, 2009)

Sometimes, in attending a non-reformed church, one misses the preaching of assurance and gets the idea inserted into one's "mental hard drive" that, as I saw and heard one man around here dramatically lean over his pulpit and yell (with regard to not doing certain things such as reading your Bible, etc.): "Folks, you can lose your salvation!"

*No, sir, you cannot.*



I don't ever want to hear that coming from a "Christian" pulpit again. Nor do I want to hear altar calls anymore, either. 

Margaret


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## KMK (Mar 5, 2009)

BlackCalvinist said:


> So what's a reformed person in a non-reformed church missing ?



Plenty, but there is no perfect church out there. I would venture to say that all true churches, even 'Reformed' churches have strengths and weaknesses. Most of church history is non-Reformed.



BlackCalvinist said:


> What ends up happening to them ?



Assuming you are talking about believers, they are all preserved to the end. Although, depending on the preaching/teaching/disciplining/worshipping, they may be tossed to and fro.



BlackCalvinist said:


> What are the implications of their actions ?



Whose actions?


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## Pilgrim (Mar 5, 2009)

Of course this depends a lot on how narrowly one defines "Reformed." 

I have been in some non Reformed churches that were sounder in some respects than some Reformed ones.


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## Ezekiel3626 (Mar 5, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> Of course this depends a lot on how narrowly one defines "Reformed."
> 
> I have been in some non Reformed churches that were sounder in some respects than some Reformed ones.



This is very true, Chris. As you may know, in our area, if one mentions "depravity", "election", or any other buzzword while in an SBC Baptist Church, that person all too often has to find an exit, and quickly. I have also been part of a group that was literally expelled from an SBC church, and the accompanying association, and yet that group eventually became, at least in the opinion of some, hypercalvinist. This taught me to exercise discernment and caution, internally and externally.


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## SemperEruditio (Mar 5, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> It felt to me like fellowship was impeded. Yes, I took a non-argumentative stance, but there was a constant feeling that we were always looking at the world differently.



It starts there but I guess the issue is how we define reformed. I was fine in the non-denomination church I was a member as a Calvinist. I was argumentative at first but then just resigned myself to the idea that God had yet to reveal the truth of the doctrines of grace to them. However as my reformation became more than just in soteriology but crept into my ecclesiology I had to go. I believed that weekly communion was vital. I believed that instead of having the hierarchal structure of the pastor being top dog I saw that a plurality of elders was essential.

I cannot see how someone who is reformed can remain at a non-reformed church. It would have to be an extreme form of cognitive dissonance. I left a church where I was a leader in the church and was actively pursuing licensure/ordination to join a PCA church where I had to start from scratch. I went from having an ordination examination that would have been about as easy as reciting the Lord's prayer to now what the BCO says I have to do.  Needless to say I believe that if a person has a reformed church where they can worship then they must make the switch. I hear too many say the same I was saying which is _"I will convert them from within"_.


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## Classical Presbyterian (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey, I manage to minister in a non-Reformed _*denomination*_ and still survive!


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## Scynne (Mar 5, 2009)

As a person who is currently reformed in a non-reformed church (Mennonite Brethren), allow me to offer my personal experience.
At first, it was good. I was baptized into the church shortly after my conversion, and I became reformed shortly after my baptism. It started off with me being all guarded-like, and ripping apart every sentence the pastor said to find error and cry, "Heretic!" Luckily, he's a decent preacher, and his occational quoting of various Puritans earned my respect. After some time, I became a sensible person, and stopped looking to pick fights with anyone not wearing John Calvin t-shirts. I kinda found my place and settled down (although I found the worship to be...horrendously shallow).
Then, I signed up with a Mennonite Brethren missions agency for a 10 month short-term missionary training thingy. It started off well...but only because I was still ignorant of much doctrine. I assumed that the people around me, with great experience, would also be trustworthy, so I (lazily) accepted the things they 'taught' me with glee. I had plenty of free time to read my Bible and "Calvin'n'friends".
Long story short, I slowly began to realize that most everything (there was one man who was a thoroughly godly exception) I was taught fell handily in the the category of either 'terrible doctrine', or 'downright wicked, God-hating/dishonouring doctrine'.
And I'm currently in the market for a new denomination
Anyway, that's my


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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 5, 2009)

I am a Reformed Baptist in my theology and remain in an Independent Bible Church. Since things vary from one non-denominational church to another, my situation may be somewhat unique.

*Since I am baptistic, there is no basic issue here.
*I am a soteriological Calvinist as are many if not most in this church.
*We have a plurality of Elders overseeing the body and a Teaching Elder. No problem here.
*We observe the Lord's Supper weekly, which I prefer and deem most biblical.
*We exercise church discipline according to Matthew 18.
*We emphasize expository preaching and teaching.
*We encourage servanthood, personal ministry, and the excercise of individual gifts in the body.
*We are conservative in our worship, though not RPW. 

What is missing? I would desire one change:
*An acceptance of Covenant Theology. Moderate dispensationalism prevails, although not required by our Statement of faith.

I was saved into this church 33 years ago. I moved to a Reformed Baptist position as the years went by through personal and formal studies. But the relationships, Christian love, and opportunites for service at this place have prevented us (as a family) from moving on.


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## cih1355 (Mar 5, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> Of course this depends a lot on how narrowly one defines "Reformed."



This is true. There is a big difference between a church that agrees with some of Reformed theology such as the five points of Calvinism and the regulative principle of worship and a church like the Wesleyan church.


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## Albatross (Mar 5, 2009)

Skyler said:


> BlackCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> > In the process of writing an article on this issue and posting it.
> ...



Maybe this is another thread and I'm not assuming you have hatched a plan to purposefully convert the church and this is a genuine question.....so now that I've clarified myself, onto the question.

Should there be any efforts to influence non-reformed churches to reformed stances outside of general interactions with members?


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## DonP (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow, its hard been there done that, but thank God only for a short time. I moved to 7 cities in a couple years looking for a good reformed church when I first got out of college and got married. It was that important to me. 

Later in life I went to a Baptist church where the pastor held to the 5 points and was transitioning his church. But it was still tough. He wanted to, but his deacons wouldn't let me be a member because I was presbyterian. Helped out for a couple years then found a new Free Reformed work starting. 
The worst is listening to altar calls, the carnal Christian heresy, and not hearing he clear distinctive covenant presentation that we are are Israel. I wouldn't want to bring up a child regularly hearing that false gospel of decisional regeneration. 
Also went for a few months to an Evangelical Pres church that had merged with an independent baptistic church and the pastor sought to keep all together by avoiding good teaching, just philosophizing about a moral life. He was an eloquent ear tickler with a PhD in philosophy, and what ended it for me was though the adult Sunday school was trying to introduce the doctrines of grace to those few who attended, he did a baby dedication one day from Samuel and I asked Him what that was. He said he had people question him on infant baptism but never on dedication. When asked why he used that passage since it had nothing to do with what these parents wanted, he was being dedicated to be sent off to the priesthood, he said, well I couldn't think of any other scripture to support dedication. I said then you shouldn't have perverted the word of God and just done the thing apart from the word. He was smart enough to be convicted. But I knew I needed to get with a less ecumenical church. I am not sure if it is good to be that patient with people or just call them to the truth and let the haters of it leave. So I yielded to my conscience in meekness willing to be corrected on this. 

I will ask God to help you find a good church that worships in purity and truth and sustains you in His word in the meantime. I mean this as no alternative but you can listen to some great reformed preaching on SermonAudio.com - faith cometh by hearing I particularly like L Bilkes, Joel Beeke's and Archie Alison's preaching and find it to be practical applicatory and discriminating preaching. Fully adherent to the Confessional understanding of Scripture and our historical faith.

In his Service,


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## ReformedChapin (Mar 5, 2009)

I've attended Calvary Chapel for about 3 years. I loved it the first year because it was nice change from my first all hispanic church which I was saved. But quickly after studying church history and reformed theology I found the preaching shallow and a basic "be good theology." I'm sick and tired of it. I am currently looking for a new Reformed Denom, visiting URCNA churches around my area.


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## The Deeps (Mar 5, 2009)

> So what's a reformed person in a non-reformed church missing ? What ends up happening to them ? What are the implications of their actions ?



I think counseling from your pastoral staff is greatly effected for a reformed person in a non reformed church. The counselors worldview has a big effect on their reality skew in counseling. It could lean toward a hyper practical, existential, Freud filled hour of self-talk.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 5, 2009)

What was missing for us in the Non-Reformed Church was:
True Communion
Regulative Principle of Worship


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## Augusta (Mar 5, 2009)

What was missing in my case, for almost 5 years,  was growth in grace and understanding. I was stagnant in my understanding of the scriptures all that time. Once we got into a true church, I started growing in grace almost immediately. We have been here only 4 yrs and I have learned more, and grown more in that time than in all my 25 yrs in a pentecostal church.


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## SemperEruditio (Mar 5, 2009)

Augusta said:


> What was missing in my case, for almost 5 years,  was growth in grace and understanding. I was stagnant in my understanding of the scriptures all that time. Once we got into a true church, I started growing in grace almost immediately. We have been here only 4 yrs and I have learned more, and grown more in that time than in all my 25 yrs in a pentecostal church.



Amen to that! I couldn't leave our church now if I wanted to. My wife feels as though every sermon is raw meat. She tells me she feels full after every sermon. I remind her that it is probably the yeast in the communion bread.


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## Augusta (Mar 5, 2009)

Raw meat is exactly right! That is perfect. My husband and I have been ravenously feeding ever since we got here. It truly is our spiritual meat and drink.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 5, 2009)

I've also found a few pastors that were willing to be more open and connected with the individuals in their congregations. On the other side though, we've had a harder time connecting with people IN Reformed congregations.


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## Skyler (Mar 5, 2009)

Albatross said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> > *snip*
> ...



Well, I think brothers and sisters in Christ should always seek to "sharpen" each other, and instruct one another on points where we/they are unbiblical. So while I wouldn't go for a hostile takeover bid and make a dash for the pulpit, spewing Reformed theology as I go, I do think it is possible and right to attend a church, build up a friendship with the ministry, and seek to show them where their theology is off. I would say that, as a member of the church, I will talk to the elders first, not go around to random members of the congregation and tell them all the things that the preacher just said that were wrong.

I think that paragraph may have been a little helter-skelter. Sorry.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 5, 2009)

Many prayers for you, Jonathan. I know what walls you have and will have. May the Lord tear them down.


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## SemperEruditio (Mar 5, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> I've also found a few pastors that were willing to be more open and connected with the individuals in their congregations. On the other side though, we've had a harder time connecting with people IN Reformed congregations.



Interesting. Care to elaborate why you think that might be. I kinda figured it was because we are a latino couple. Actually come to think of it I didn't have a great experience at a restaurant in Lancaster, PA either...it might just be PA people.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 5, 2009)

SemperEruditio said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> > I've also found a few pastors that were willing to be more open and connected with the individuals in their congregations. On the other side though, we've had a harder time connecting with people IN Reformed congregations.
> ...



The pastors that are most open, most down to earth, and most willing to tell it like it is without worry of politics, etc are the older ones (and we LIKE this!). 

The congregational issues are probably mostly cultural differences.


(care to pm me which restaurant?)


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## steven-nemes (Mar 5, 2009)

It kinda stinks, hearing sermons on one Sunday that "on the pathway of the Lord, he will guide you till the end" and the next that "limited atonement is a lie verging on blasphemy" and the next "salvation can be lost if you do not work for the kingdom".


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## BG (Mar 5, 2009)

BlackCalvinist you said:

*So what's a reformed person in a non-reformed church missing ? *

In my opinion everything. 

If a Church is not reformed, what does that mean but that they reject the Sola's of the Reformation. Those points of doctrine are not the high mark of what it means to be a true Church but they are the bare minimum or to put it another way they are the foundation of the church. If the foundation of a Church is not level then Christ is not the Cornerstone, if Christ is not the Cornerstone then it is not a Church.


The mainline church in America is way overdue for a Reformation. Most of these churches don't even realize that they have embraced the very doctrines of Rome. 

Please don't think that I am attacking these people, just the Doctrine. There are a lot of good, well meaning people in these places. And God does sometimes use crooked sticks to guide people in the right direction, but it is despite what they are doing not because of it.


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## reformed trucker (Mar 5, 2009)

For me it was a number of things.
1.I really couldn't have a decent discussion about theology with anyone.
2.The sermons were short, full of fluff, and left me with nothing of substance.
3. The worship was way too happy-clappy. More like a performance.

Now every Sunday is like a feast on the word. I could never sit under poor preaching again. I also appreciate the RPW.


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## William Price (Mar 5, 2009)

In all honesty, I could not imagine visiting a non-reformed church again.


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## SemperEruditio (Mar 6, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > LadyFlynt said:
> ...



Upon wifely correction the restaurant was in Waynesboro, PA not Lancaster. 


Cultural differences? What is the difference in culture?


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## BlackCalvinist (Mar 6, 2009)

William Price said:


> In all honesty, I could not imagine visiting a non-reformed church again.



Can you elaborate why ?


Thanks for the responses and convo so far, folks.


Frank - hit me up on PM with your number. Irwin's doing weekly communion at City of Hope ? If so, I'm THERE on Sunday.


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