# Does God HATES the non-elected ?



## Mayflower (Apr 17, 2006)

Maybe this has been discussed before, but can we say that God hates the non-elected ?

Are His hatred and His love contradicted in His relationship towards the non-elected ?

Is there only hatred towards the non-elected, or can we say that God loves everyone for the fact that mankind was made in the image and likeness of God Himself ?

What does God hatred means, can you compare it with human hatred, or is it totally different ?

Are there any books or articals about this topic ?

When i was searching on google for this topic i came across ; god hates fags http://www.godhatesfags.com/

I was shock when i read that website. Any thoughs ?

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by Mayflower]


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## Mayflower (Apr 17, 2006)

The next information i got from www.godhatesfags.com

The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, Kansas, is an Old School (or, Primitive) Baptist Church. In short, we adhere to the teachings of the Bible, preach against all form of sin (e.g., fornication, adultery, sodomy), and insist that the doctrines of grace be taught publicly to all men. These doctrines of grace were well summed up by John Calvin in his 5 points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Although these doctrines are almost universally hated today, they were once loved and believed. For example, Augustine (one of the early Church fathers), Martin Luther (the founder of the Lutheran Church), John Knox (the founder of the Presbyterian Church), Augustus Toplady (hymnist and leader in the Episcopal Church), Charles Spurgeon (a well-known preacher), John Leland (who was partially responsible for our First Amendment in the United States), and Abraham Lincoln (raised in a tiny Old School Baptist church) are just a few examples of people who have advanced these ideas. Please see The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination by Jerom Zanchius. Most of the major Confessions of Faith throughout the history of the New Testament Church have also advanced these ideas. So, even though the Arminian lies that "God loves everyone" and "Jesus died for everyone" are being taught from nearly every pulpit in this generation, this hasn't always been the case. In fact, if you are in a Church that supposedly believes the Bible, and you are hearing these lies, then your church has apostatized. If you are interested in this subject, we encourage you to do some independent research on the history of the Church over the last several hundred years, and, more importantly, we encourage you to carefully read the entire New Testament. 

WBC engages in daily peaceful sidewalk demonstrations opposing the homosexual lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth. We display large, colorful signs containing Bible words and sentiments, including: GOD HATES FAGS, FAGS HATE GOD, AIDS CURES FAGS, THANK GOD FOR AIDS, FAGS BURN IN HELL, NO NOT MOCKED, FAGS ARE NATURE FREAKS, GOD GAVE FAGS UP, NO SPECIAL LAWS FOR FAGS, etc. 

Perceiving the modern militant homosexual movement to pose a clear and present danger to the survival of America, exposing our nation to the wrath of God as in 1898 B.C. at Sodom and Gomorrah, WBC has conducted some 20,000 such demonstrations during the last nine years at homosexual parades and other events (including funerals of impenitent sodomites, like Matthew Shepard). WBC teams have picketed major fag parades in San Francisco, New York, Washington D.C., Miami, San Diego, Dallas, Orlando, Kansas City, etc. The unique picketing ministry of Westboro Baptist Church has received national attention, and WBC believes this gospel message to be America's last hope.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Ralph,
You asked a great question. Let me first speak to the tasteless topic of the Westboro congregation. This is neither a church not a christian organization in any way. It is a one-trick hate group. They protest at the funerals of our fallen soldiers and they spread their messge through creating controversy by being hyper offensive. They are led by a man who is very likely possessed by the demonic. He is a very evil man. 

This is an unfortunate case where the internet has given an irrelevant group too much visiblility. They do not speak for God and His spirit is far from them. 

Now back to the important question, does God hate the non-elect.
You didn't define what you mean't by hate but I will assume you mean hate that is similar to the way we experience and practice hate. But remember, we are emotional, sentimental and capricious. God is not.

When we think of God's love what comes to our mind. Usually it's a sentimental feeling of strong desire. But God manifests a love that is truly unconditional. Therefore it is not affected by time or event or condition. The best way to summarize God's love is to use the word 'election'. God sets his preference upon his chosen according to his counsel in eternity. That is unchangeable love.

If it helps you can think of God's hate as the opposite - that God in order to display his justice keeps from setting his preference on others. Hell is what we all justly deserve and God is just if we was to let all of us rebels continue there. But God is also merciful.

We are usually ashamed to speak of God's hate because we are ashamed of how we hate. But God's hate, or wrath is one of his perfections. Because God is perfect in justice and holiness he must hate. 

To let us know how much he hates sin he uses accomodating language which seems to indicatie emotion and passion but this is to help us understand that sin is dispiccable. This doesn't change the unconditional love or hate of God.

We do not know who the elect are so we are not to hate as God hates. We are to treat others as if they are more important than ourselves. We are to set our preference on whomever God brings to us and we are to teach the gospel to them. We are to hate sin but love the sinner, we are all sinners. God however does not love the sinner (the reprobate). It is wimpy sentimentality that says he does. God loves his sheep.

Here is an excerpt from AW Pinks, The Attributes of God. This is from the chapter on God's wrath. It is followed by a link that will take you to the whole chapter. I recommend you read it and then read the whole book. There are many good sources that handle well the wrath of God. It's a shame you landed on the one you did.

"Now the wrath of God is as much a Divine perfection as is His faithfulness, power, or mercy. It must be so, for there is no blemish whatever, not the slightest defect in the character of God; yet there would be if "wrath" were absent from Him! Indifference to sin is a moral blemish, and he who hates it not is a moral leper. How could He who is the Sum of all excellency look with equal satisfaction upon virtue and vice, wisdom and folly? How could He who is infinitely holy disregard sin and refuse to manifest His "severity" (Rom. 9:12) toward it? How could He who delights only in that which is pure and lovely, loathe and hate not that which is impure and vile? The very nature of God makes Hell as real a necessity, as imperatively and eternally requisite as Heaven is. Not only is there no imperfection in God, but there is no perfection in Him that is less perfect than another.

The wrath of God is His eternal detestation of all unrighteousness. It is the displeasure and indignation of Divine equity against evil. It is the holiness of God stirred into activity against sin. It is the moving cause of that just sentence which He passes upon evil-doers. God is angry against sin because it is a rebelling against His authority, a wrong done to His inviolable sovereignty. Insurrectionists against God´s government shall be made to know that God is the Lord. They shall be made to feel how great that Majesty is which they despise, and how dreadful is that threatened wrath which they so little regarded. Not that God´s anger is a malignant and malicious retaliation, inflicting injury for the sake of it, or in return for injury received. No; while God will vindicate His dominion as the Governor of the universe, He will not be vindictive."

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_16.htm

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by BobVigneault]

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## bigheavyq (Apr 17, 2006)

does God hate the reprobate? yes in a perfect way. (vessels for dishonor, jacob I loved but esau I hated) 

on the homosexuality question - Any sin will send you to hell, however on the earth, some sins are more heinous and homosexuality is one of them. 
God commands that they be put to death, along with adulterers, rapists, insest, murder, etc. In romans 1 we see that it is a state of a mind that is rebelling against God.

Now, is every homosexual going to hell? NO!!!
I know of many who have come to Christ and changed dramatically. 
One was a feminazi lesbian who now is married with 4 kids who are homeschooled and going to a very conservative reformed church.
Remember that God saved Paul, who seemed to be the personification of evil to the church. 

The state has the duty to enforce God's law not the church. We have the duty to share Christ with sinners and be agents of mercy. Westboro has forgotten that principle.


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

God maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Mt 5:45

I believe God does love the reprobate. He forbears with their sins, pouring his goodness upon them, giving them opportunity to turn from their sins and live.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

Peter,
even if we take any one of Webster's three definitions for 'repropate':

1 : to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil
2 : to foreordain to damnation
3 : to refuse to accept; 

it is illogical to speak of God loving the reprobate. The terms are mutually exclusive. Yes, the gospel call goes out to all men. Yes, all men have opportunity to turn and repent and are responsible for not doing so. But we cannot say that God ordains to salvation and ordains to damnation at the same time.

A lady once told me that God loves everybody. I asked her if she believes that God loves somebody in hell. Without hesitation she replied, "Yes, and he feels very bad that they are there." No he doesn't. We must be very careful to only say what scripture says and not add our own sentiments.

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by BobVigneault]

Reactions: Like 1


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## VanVos (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes God does hate the reprobate and does not desire to save them. Psalms 5:5, 11:5 Romans 9:16-18 However we in this life must love these people because the only thing that separates us from them is grace Matt 5:44. Plus we truly do not know who is reprobate so we must pray for grace and mercy upon all those who have not yet professed Christ. 1 Tim 2:1, 2 Cor 5:18-19.



[Edited on 4-17-2006 by VanVos]


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 17, 2006)

> We must be very careful to only say what scripture says and not add our own sentiments.






Thus the MAIN reason I looked for a reformed Church home. When I realized adding our own sentiment was so rampant in the evangelical/Arminian community I fledf rom it as fast as I could. So many mean well, they say things that can "sound good" because they base it off their emotions and passion yet it's horrendous error that leads many astray.


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## Mayflower (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Hi Ralph,
> You asked a great question. Let me first speak to the tasteless topic of the Westboro congregation. This is neither a church not a christian organization in any way. It is a one-trick hate group. They protest at the funerals of our fallen soldiers and they spread their messge through creating controversy by being hyper offensive. They are led by a man who is very likely possessed by the demonic. He is a very evil man.
> 
> ...



Dear Bob, thank you very much for your explanation, it very clear!


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VanVos_
> Yes God does hate the reprobate and does not desire to save them. Psalms 5:5, 11:5 Romans 9:16-18 However we in this life must love these people because the only thing that separates us from them is grace Matt 5:44. Plus we truly do not know who is reprobate so we must pray for grace and mercy upon all those who nave not yet professed Christ. 1 Tim 2:1, 2 Cor 5:18-19.
> 
> 
> [Edited on 4-17-2006 by VanVos]



God does not desire to save the reprobate?

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

Again Peter, in your question you speak of the 'reprobate' and in the biblical response it's speaks of the 'wicked'. 

Remember the old saying, a text taken out of context is a pretext.

God is speaking here of the wicked sinner whom he has ordained for repentance ("that he should return from his way". I was once a wicked sinner. "But God demostrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." 

But to repeat, to replace the word 'wicked' or 'sinner', (which we all are apart from Christ), with the word 'reprobate', (of which there is a fixed number known only to God), is not logical.

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob, you're saying God only loves the elect wicked and desires the salvation of the elect sinner?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

I am saying that in eternity, God in his perfect counsel, that he may demonstrate his glory and consistent with His perfect attributes, set his preference on certain of those who would break covenant and bring death upon themselves unless he otherwise acted by electing and calling them from death to life.

I would call this love.

Yes, I would agree with what you have written as long as we are defining love the same way.


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## VanVos (Apr 17, 2006)

I think I'm in agreement with Bob here. God acomplishes what He truly desires. Although God does take delight whenever he precepts are obeyed, for example Ezekiel 18:23. But that is not the same as saying that God truly desires to save the reprobate. God is a unified simple infinite being and His truth is one. I recommend Matthew McMahon's work The two wills of God for further insight. http://www.puritanpublications.com/Books/TwoWills.htm 

VanVos


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## Arch2k (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VanVos_
> I think I'm in agreement with Bob here. God acomplishes what He truly desires. Although God does take delight whenever he precepts are obeyed, for example Ezekiel 18:23. But that is not the same as saying that God truly desires to save the reprobate. God is a unified simple infinite being and His truth is one. I recommend Matthew McMahon's work The two wills of God for further insight. http://www.puritanpublications.com/Books/TwoWills.htm
> 
> VanVos





Matt's book is a must read on this subject.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

I agree with you Trevor but common grace is another ambiguous term that means one thing to one group and a different thing to another. If you mean that God allows many of his blessings to fall on the just and unjust then I agree. I believe that's what you mean. 

But many use the term common grace to indicate a jump start that God has given all mankind so that they have the ability to decide for Christ. This is not what you mean but some define common grace as such.


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## VanVos (Apr 17, 2006)

I would argue that grace is particular, sin is common grace isn't. I'm not dead against the term common grace but if you use it it really needs to be qualified. I prefer the term indiscriminate providence. 



> Is not common grace an evidence of God's love in patiently bearing with the vessels of dishonor during their short lives on earth?


. I think those verses speak of His patience, and mercy, but I wouldn't say it is his grace as in God favoring the reprobate.

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by VanVos]


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> I am saying that in eternity, God in his perfect counsel, that he may demonstrate his glory and consistent with His perfect attributes, set his preference on certain of those who would break covenant and bring death upon themselves unless he otherwise acted by electing and calling them from death to life.
> 
> I would call this love.



I agree. 

Wouldn't you also call this love?

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 

Are we to love our enemies but God may hate them? No. If the light of nature wasn't clear enough to refute this absurd notion we have the explicit statement of scripture "be perfect as your Father is." 48 God is our example of love. Does this have regard to only elect enemies? Do we only love our unconverted neighbor b.c. he may be elect? Again, no. Our Father, the paradigm for love, knows who are his elect yet, while we're on earth, he loves indiscriminately.


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Yes, I would agree with what you have written as long as we are defining love the same way.



Bob, do you think Eze 18:23 is only about the elect? Do you believe God offers Christ to all sinners or only the elect?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

The offer is to all sinners, how else would the reprobate reject the offer?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

Peter,
you did pick the most troublesome verse in scripture to argue over. I must admit that I don't think I could defend that the verse only applies to the elect. I've been trying to avoid the two wills argument because I believe brevity is next to godliness. If I can't explain it to my 11 year old then I had better rethink my position.

So I guess I am saying the scripture says what it says and I would be doing violence to its truth if I push too hard to make it say something different. In other words, I getting in over my head. 

How would you synthesize this verse with the rest of our reformed doctrines? God's purpose will stand and he will do all that he desires. Yet, we do not believe in universalism and this verse says God's desires none to perish. What's your take Peter?

[Edited on 4-17-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## caddy (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Hi Ralph,
> You asked a great question. Let me first speak to the tasteless topic of the Westboro congregation. This is neither a church not a christian organization in any way. It is a one-trick hate group. They protest at the funerals of our fallen soldiers and they spread their messge through creating controversy by being hyper offensive. They are led by a man who is very likely possessed by the demonic. He is a very evil man.
> 
> ...



Well Stated Bob !

I always learn something from reading your posts...


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## VanVos (Apr 17, 2006)

Ezekiel 18:23 and other such verses speak of God's delight in seeing His precepts being kept by his covenant creatures. In the context of Ezekiel God is saying that He's not a sadist but rather He delights in people obeying Him. The context is not about God's desire to see the elect repent and believe the gospel, but rather it's an autobiographical statement about His delight in seeing people obey His Law. 

VanVos




[Edited on 4-17-2006 by VanVos]


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## Arch2k (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> God does not desire to save the reprobate?
> 
> Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?



We have to use the appropriate sense to interpret this verse, otherwise we have a clear contradiction:

Deu 28:63 "And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, *so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing*; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.


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## caddy (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> God loves all mankind with some love; He loves some of mankind with ALL love, however, and Elects them to salvation.
> 
> 
> Is not common grace an evidence of God's love in patiently bearing with the vessels of dishonour during their short lives on earth?



Yes

Amen to that as well


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## Arch2k (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caddy_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> ...



Supposing one believes in common grace.


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## Peter (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> The offer is to all sinners, how else would the reprobate reject the offer?



Our disagreement is less than I thought it was then. There are some wicked persons who would deny this statement. Eze 18:23 the wicked who God does not desire to see perish are the same that he offers life to if they repent

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 

In this life God loves the reprobate. He gives them material good, food, raiment, shelter, he restrains their sin and causes them to do good in the world, he gives many of them spiritual good short of union with Christ and salvation. After death the reprobate will be cut off from God's goodness and will receive his wrath unabated. I heard or read some where that Edwards called all these things, the love of God to the reprobate, (common grace) time and opportunity to repent. Thus the reprobate are called 'unthankful' (Romans 1:21) and are guilty of despising the "riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" Ro 2:4 

I believe that God loves all sinners and desires their salvation, even the reprobate. But I do not speak of His eternal decrees. We know that God lowers himself to speak with us, so he speaks of his simple will having two aspects - decretal and preceptive. God has predestined a set amount to glory and consigned the rest to hell for their sins, yet, God invites, indeed commands all including the reprobate to believe in Christ and be saved. Isa 45:21, Act 17:30 The things God reveals that he wishes his rational creatures to do can be frustrated (preceptive will) and so many reject the gospel. But this itself is predetermined. None can accept the offer except those he has predestined and effectually called. God can order man to do what it is impossible for his fallen will to do. and this is where historic calvinism differs from heretical arminianism and hyper-calvinism. And upon this we know we can be accepted of Christ, b/c God has said he desires the salvation of all sinners. Otherwise what hope would any of us have? Must we first convince our vile selves we are elect before we can believe? No! We believe b/c Christ is presented to all sinners and we are sinners.



> "We hold, then, that; God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If any one should object -- then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the Prophet does not here speak of God's secret counsel, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation. If any one again objects -- this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God's will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish."



Calvin, Eze 18:21


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## BobVigneault (Apr 17, 2006)

Thank you for sharing that Peter, I will re-read it and give it more thought. I still don't want to say He loves the reprobate though for I have made love and election near synonyms. I would say that he extends mercy toward the reprobate. If grace is giving the elect that which he hasn't earned then mercy is not giving the sinner that which he has earned. Of course with the reprobate, God has only delayed punishment. Blessings Peter, Denzel and I have to go mow the lawn.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 17, 2006)

> Mark 10:17-23
> 
> As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
> And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
> ...


Was the rich young ruler reprobate or elect? Unclear. We do know that, in the midst of self-justification, Jesus felt a love for the young man.

I believe God is loving in a benevolent way to His entire Creation but is loving in a beneficent way to the Elect.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Hey Bob....
> 
> Common grace is not the same as Wesleyan Prevenient Grace.
> ...


Funny, I was in the middle of collecting this when I realized you had just mentioned it. I quite agree that Christ is capable of affection for the reprobate. I imagine that when He weeped over Jerusalem it was not only the Elect He was weeping over.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Thanks Rich for posting the actual quote... I was about to go searching for it myself (.....let's see...was that in Matthew or Mark.....?).
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's not a bad analogy.

God's emotions are so much more complex than ours. There is a sense in which God will not only ultimately punish the wicked but I think it's Revelations that says He will literally laugh at them for their derision and foolishness.

Yet, that said, I still believe He loves His creation, even the reprobate, in a benevolent sense. He does not love them _in the same way_ He loves His elect (savingly, working all to their good) but I don't believe He hates them. Romans 9 says He endures the reprobate with much long suffering. One might expect a complete contrast with the love shown the elect in the same passages. Instead it talks about patient endurance and not a hate that is equal, but opposite, to the love He has for the Elect.


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