# FV on the PCA= the "sect" of "that clown Sproul," "antichrists," a "pack of liars"



## SEAGOON

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

When we first commented on the Lampooning of the PCA discipline process at the most recent Auburn Avenue Pastors Conference, noting the obvious lack of respect it indicated, a few FV apologists were quick to say it was all in good fun. Then Mark Horne a PCA minister and signer of the "Joint Federal Vision Statement" blogged in response comparing the FV men to Jesus and those involved in the process against the FV to Pharisees on their way to hell. Apparently this is why the FV men were right in refusing "_to take them and their judgments on him seriously_" and for not showing "_the respect or the love for them._"

Now James Jordan, one of the chief architects of the FV and another signer of the Joint FV Statement, in comments he made here has made very clear what the FV opinion of the "gaggle of fools" (the PCA) and its discipline process is, and indicated beyond all possible contradiction that the Rubber Nose treatment was not lighthearted Jovian pranksterism.








*Here then are some lowlights from Federal Vision Joint Statement Signer, Recent Auburn Avenue Speaker, and the"godfather of the Federal Vision" Jim Jordan's opinions of the PCA:

*​ Blogger James Jordan said...

* The actions of the Star Judicial Chamber of the PCA are so openly wicked and evil, and so totally tyrannical, that is makes the Papacy look like small potatoes by comparison.* All Christians in all kinds of churches should be appalled by this tyranny, and it is certainly fine for Armstrong, myself, and others to comment on it.

Blogger James Jordan said...

I*f you men cannot recognize the actions of this Star Chamber as tyranny and evil, you are really beyond help. *The presbytery has twice examined Wilkins and said he is not out of accord with the Confession. Since this was not the "verdict" desired by the antichrists of the Star Chamber, they threaten the presbytery! I stand by my words. *These actions are nothing less than demonic, and evidence that the PCA is being given over.* The very fact that the PCA would set up such a Star Chamber, which is beyond appeal, is more evidence. Not even the Papacy has such power, nor claims such power. And you men cannot see this? You are blind, and need to pray for salvation from bondage. *Also, the fact that the ignorant PCA GA blindly voted to accept the distortions and downright lies of the FV Report is only evidence that these men are easily misled and are too busy to investigate matters for themselves. The PCA is now virtually a tyranny, and I'm overwhelmingly happy not to be part of it.

*Blogger James Jordan said...

This is a joke, right? *The PCA committee, stacked from the start, produces a series of easily-provable lies*, allows virtually no time for discussion so that not only FV person even gets to the mike, and you want to defend this? My language is not over the top. It is very mild. And if you are offended, good. *Those of you who lie repeatedly about the beliefs of ordained ministers of Christ, and who rape and divide His church, are going to hear far worse in time to come.

*Blogger James Jordan said...

Whenever someone points out liars, he's obnoxious. Goes with the territory. *The PCA committee was a pack of liars.* The discussion at GA was a joke. I'm not PCA. I wasn't there. I saw it online. *I saw that clown Sproul lie about the FV, and I saw the cowardly committee try and explain why they did not interview anyone, and I saw them lie and say they had actually read and studied the supposed FV material. All out there for the world to see. No fear of God before their eyes.* What I gather bothers you is that people outside the PCA can see this abomination and the tyranny of your evil Star Chamber and can comment on it. Yes, we can. It's appalling. Luther was treated far better. But I assure you, lying about God's ministers and tearing up the bride of Christ is far more serious than being seen as obnoxious on some blog.

Blogger James Jordan said...

Well, this is now just a joke. *If you don't think Sproul is a clown, you obviously did not watch his performance at GA. I don't need to interview him. He clowned around quite clearly in front of everyone.* For the rest, you chaps clearly are not interested in the Bible and the Reformed confessions, so there's no point in continuing with you. And, you clearly despise Presbyterian church government, since the LA Presbytery has TWICE investigated Wilkins and found no ground for charges. You are not presbyterians at all. I wash my hands of you. Be offended as much as you want. If you wish to be treated with respect, cease your contemptable behavior.

Blogger James Jordan said...

The idiocy continues. Justification by faith alone has nothing to do with the FV matter, since all FV exponents affirm completely and wholeheartedly the historic protestant and Reformed doctrine of justification by faith alone. No matter how many times you men repeat your lies, we shall stand up and call you liars and rebuke your wickedness.

*As for the Star Chamber, it's true that the PCA, like a gaggle of fools, set this evil thing in place.* It's the opposite of any kind of Biblical and presbyterian government, as anyone can see, and it's going to be pointed out as such by many more than Armstrong and myself.

*You have to be amazed at the morality of the gods of the PCA.* Among normal decent people, if you said I was beating my wife, and I said, "No, I'm not," that would be it. Innocent until proven guilty. Not in the PCA. No, there has to be an investigation. So, the investigation conducted by those nearest to me comes back and says, "Nope, he's not beating his wife." Among normal decent people that would be enough.

But not for the gods of the PCA. No, they demand another investigation. The second investigation, by people close to me who know me, comes back and says, "Nope, he's not beating his wife." Now among normal decent people that would be more than enough. But not for you evil men, and not for your gods. Your gods come back and say, "Either find this man guilty of beating his wife or we will cut you out of our denomination." THAT's the PCA.

*You regard your sect as a church of Jesus Christ? It is about like the church of Sardis, and EVERYONE CAN SEE IT!

* You should really step back and take a look at your collective appalling behavior -- your misrepresentations, your character assassinations, your lies, and your tyrannies -- and do something about it; because if you don't, the Lord of the Church most certainly will do something about it.
=========================================

As I've said before, the discussion phase is clearly over. These men have nothing but contempt and vitriol and incredibly offensive insults for any denomination or individual that opposes their will and ever-changing theological opinions. The fact that they remain in a denomination they brand a Pharisaical "sect" of "antichrists" and a "gaggle of fools" why on earth do they remain? Still, they seem determined to do so, and to cast their envenomed barbs from within, so there isn't going to be any other option other than to continue with the discipline process with as much patience and attention to doing things decently and order as possible. 

Your Servant in Christ,

Pastor Andy Webb
Providence, Fayetteville


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## PuritanCovenanter

This is a sad day. Thanks Pastor.


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## a mere housewife

I've wondered in the past why James Jordan has the popularity he does with FV people: I'm wondering it again. Others I know would not descend to this. I hope they won't stand beside it now. 

I agree with Randy, it's very sad. It's appalling, really.


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## Amazing Grace

Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?


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## wsw201

Why anyone would pay any attention to this guy after what happened in Tyler is beyond me.


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## Poimen

Is it possible that we could begin to delight in such things? That we are 'happy' that the FV is taking such a fall? I sense some ugliness in my heart...


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## Romans922

Where does Horne say these things?


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## Zenas

Wow. This guy is a pastor?


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## R. Scott Clark

This sort of rhetoric (and the spirit behind it) from this lot is not new.


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## DMcFadden

It seems that the more we know (or think we know), the more strident we become. Lord grant that we cultivate the humility of those who know you and the grace to deal with those with whom we disagree.


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## SEAGOON

Hi Daniel,



Poimen said:


> Is it possible that we could begin to delight in such things? That we are 'happy' that the FV is taking such a fall? I sense some ugliness in my heart...



I'm not happy about it, although I am glad that the dissimulation phase does seem to be nearing an end and we are now being treated to their honest opinions of us and our theology. 

Personally, I just want this to be over, and the FV men in the PCA moved off to another denomination. After five years of this and the awful process of "trying to nail down theological jello," I've had my fill. I'm mystified that anyone wouldn't be able to see the "system" for what it is, at this point. Anyway, like every other conflict with error and heresy in church history, this one is ugly. The Arian conflict was ugly, the downgrade controversy was ugly, the English Civil war in which the Standards were birthed was exceedingly ugly. And yes, its always a conflict of sinful men vs. sinful men, the only difference between them being grace and the gospel, in and of themselves there usually isn't much difference and sometimes the "nice guys" are on the side of error. No one, for instance, argued that Machen was more of a "people person" than his opponents. In any event, Church discipline can be likened to the end of _Old Yeller_, its an awful, sad job but it has to be done.


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## MrMerlin777

Poimen said:


> Is it possible that we could begin to delight in such things? That we are 'happy' that the FV is taking such a fall? I sense some ugliness in my heart...




I sense some ugliness in mine as well brother....


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## DMcFadden

Amazing Grace said:


> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?



Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?


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## Amazing Grace

DMcFadden said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?
Click to expand...



Exactlywhat I was thinking. I know about the FV a tad, but I need to know what this barage of inflammatory rhetoric is all about. All this "Presbyterian- speak" is greek to me in situations like this. Must be some strange dialect and secret handshake involved. Kinda reminds me of the following..

International Order of Friendly Sons of the Raccoons
Arthur William Matthew "Art" Carney (1918/11/04 - 2003/11/09) and
Herbert John "Jackie" Gleason (1916/02/26 - 1987/06/24)
The Honeymooners

As part of the show, bus driver Ralph Kramden (Jackie Gleason) and sewer worker Ed Norton (Art Carney) *were members of the Raccoon Lodge in Brooklyn, New York. The fraternity was called the International Order of Friendly Sons of the Raccoons, the International Order of Loyal Raccoons, or at times, the Royal Order of Raccoons. Founded by Toots Mondello and Herman Hildebrand in 1907, their motto was "E Pluribus Raccoon".*
Bensonhurst chapter
Ralph and Ed belonged to Bensonhurst chapter which had a membership of 300. Their uniform, costing $35, was a double-breasted military jacket with oversized epaulets on each shoulder, white shirt, dark tie and a hat with a raccoon tail. Morris Fink, a sewer worker with Ed Norton, was the Grand High Exhalted Mystic Ruler. He wore three tails on his coonskin hat. George Williams was the president of the Bensonhurst Raccoons. Monthly dues were $2.
Official club greeting (Bylaws, sec. 2)
*The handshake involved touching elbows (first right then left), followed by a "Woooooo" sounding cry as they wiggled the raccoon tail on their lodge hat. They ended by chorusing: "Brothers under the pelt."*
Club songs
Alma Mater
From the hallowed streets of Greenpernt,
To the shores of Sheepshead Bay,
From the Verrazano Narrows,
To Canarsie across the way...
We have come together, one and all,
In fellowship to commune,
And to glorify the Grand Exalted
Brotherhood of Raccoons. [Howl] Marching song
In the West and in the East
There’s a mighty little beast
For courage there is no other.
When the chips are all at stake
We are proud to call him brother.
So with our noble tails entwined
And a spirit strong of mind
We'll have hearts that cannot melt.
In the forest, in the trees
On the land or seven seas
We're brothers under the pelt.
Raccoons, the noble Raccoons
Membership requirements (Bylaws, sec. 2)
- US citizen for the last six months
- have a public school diploma
- pay a $1.50 initiation fee.
Raccoon of the Year privileges
- Opening the first clam at the annual clambake
- Steering the boat on the annual ride up the Hudson River to Raccoon point.
- Free burial with spouse at Raccoon National Cemetery in Bismark, North Dakota.
- Opportunity to run for Grand High Exhalted Mystic Ruler.
- Throwing the first bag of water out of the hotel window at the Raccoon convention.
Lodge events
- Annual national conventions in Chicago and Minneapolis.
- Annual ride up the Hudson River to Raccoon point.
- Annual clambake.
- Annual fishing trip (wives not allowed)
- National Mambo dance championship.
- Annual Costume Party.
- Raccoon Lodge bowling team, the Hurricanes.
There was a $15 fee for each event.
Drinking toast
Fingers to fingers, thumbs to thumbs, watch out below, here she comes


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## Semper Fidelis

a mere housewife said:


> I've wondered in the past why James Jordan has the popularity he does with FV people: I'm wondering it again. Others I know would not descend to this. I hope they won't stand beside it now.
> 
> I agree with Randy, it's very sad. It's appalling, really.



Heidi,

Here are my thoughts on that question:



SemperFideles said:


> It would be interesting to me, though, if FV had been condemned in a more "civil" fashion what kind of proponents it would have. The fact is that, because it is such a pariah in the Reformed mainstream, that it tends to attract the militant. It actually speaks to the kind of people that flock to it when all the major NAPARC bodies are one-by-one condemning it. The folks left supporting it are all those that really know better - the truly converted that are smart enough to see that the rest of the Reformed Church has apostasized and only they are left to keep it together in their Confederation of micro-Churches.


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## wsw201

DMcFadden said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?
Click to expand...


Cast of Characters include, but are not limited to:

1. Doug Wilson
2. Steve Wilkins
3. Jeff Meyers
4. Mark Horne
5. John Barach
6. Norm Shepherd
7. James Jordan

These are some of the main characters you'll find on the internet. Wilkins, Meyers and Horne are all PCA TE's.

What Jordan is going off about is the examination of Steve Wilkins by the LA Presbyterian and the ruling by the PCA Standing Judicial Commission concerning that exam. I would recommend Bob Mattes blog (ReformedMusings) or Lane Kiesters blog (Greenbaggins) for some details on the proceedings. With these two sites you should get a big dose of Presbyterian polity in action!!


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## Zenas

Is James Jordan in the PCA, and if not, where is he? Someone needs some church discipline.


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## DMcFadden

wsw201 said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cast of Characters include, but are not limited to:
> 
> 1. Doug Wilson
> 2. Steve Wilkins
> 3. Jeff Meyers
> 4. Mark Horne
> 5. John Barach
> 6. Norm Shepherd
> 7. James Jordan
> 
> These are some of the main characters you'll find on the internet. Wilkins, Meyers and Horne are all PCA TE's.
> 
> What Jordan is going off about is the examination of Steve Wilkins by the LA Presbyterian and the ruling by the PCA Standing Judicial Commission concerning that exam. I would recommend Bob Mattes blog (ReformedMusings) or Lane Kiesters blog (Greenbaggins) for some details on the proceedings. With these two sites you should get a big dose of Presbyterian polity in action!!
Click to expand...


Thanks, I had heard plenty about the names of #1, 2 prior to this, and gotten the gist of the FV already. However, James Jordan was a new name for me. Isn't Norm Shepherd the fellow who was at the center of the controversy back in the 70's at Westminster? And, Lane is also serving on the committee(?) that is bringing the charges against the LA Presbyterian, right???


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## py3ak

James B. Jordan is most closely associated with Biblical Horizons.


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## SEAGOON

Hi Andrew,



Zenas said:


> Is James Jordan in the PCA, and if not, where is he? Someone needs some church discipline.



James Jordan is *not* PCA. My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that Jim Jordan was ordained as an associate pastor in the ARC an association made up of two churches in Texas with a shared commitment to Christian Reconstructionism. Since then the ARC folded and Jordan joined the CREC, but not as the Pastor of a CREC church to my knowledge. Since he is merely espousing a "strong" version of the current CREC line on the PCA discipline process, he is not affiliated with any organization that could be expected to discipline him.

Translation, *that cannon is not secured.*

Your Servant in Christ,

Andy


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## Davidius

DMcFadden said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?
Click to expand...


For Those Just Tuning In (Heidelblog)


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## mvdm

SemperFideles said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've wondered in the past why James Jordan has the popularity he does with FV people: I'm wondering it again. Others I know would not descend to this. I hope they won't stand beside it now.
> 
> I agree with Randy, it's very sad. It's appalling, really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heidi,
> 
> Here are my thoughts on that question:
> 
> 
> 
> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to me, though, if FV had been condemned in a more "civil" fashion what kind of proponents it would have. The fact is that, because it is such a pariah in the Reformed mainstream, that it tends to attract the militant. It actually speaks to the kind of people that flock to it when all the major NAPARC bodies are one-by-one condemning it. The folks left supporting it are all those that really know better - the truly converted that are smart enough to see that the rest of the Reformed Church has apostasized and only they are left to keep it together in their Confederation of micro-Churches.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Excellent reminder that bad behaviour on the orthodox side may have served to feed the fire.

If anyone ever wants to see a fine example of how the orthodox can intereact firmly but graciously in a theological dispute, I can send you a link to an archive at Wilson's blog, where Drs. Alan Strange and Nelson Kloosterman defended Mid America's Statement on Justification against Wilson's attack. They did so maturely, graciously, even as they were brutally accused by a number of FV-ers. 

Would that all of us would emulate these fine men.


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## R. Scott Clark

Here are some resources.

rsc


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## NaphtaliPress

I respect the MARS men. Frankly, I think it a mistake to put much focus on the sporting of the funny glasses and noses.



This FV thing is in process; leave the Groucho impersonations for fodder for the attack blogs, anonymous or otherwise.


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## Amazing Grace

wsw201 said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Stupid question alert, Can someone give me the cliff note version on this story please? WHo are the players and what is this about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! For some of us non-Presbyterian types, is there a summary of the cast of characters and the controversy anywhere?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cast of Characters include, but are not limited to:
> 
> 1. Doug Wilson
> 2. Steve Wilkins
> 3. Jeff Meyers
> 4. Mark Horne
> 5. John Barach
> 6. Norm Shepherd
> 7. James Jordan
> 
> These are some of the main characters you'll find on the internet. Wilkins, Meyers and Horne are all PCA TE's.
> 
> What Jordan is going off about is the examination of Steve Wilkins by the LA Presbyterian and the ruling by the PCA Standing Judicial Commission concerning that exam. I would recommend Bob Mattes blog (ReformedMusings) or Lane Kiesters blog (Greenbaggins) for some details on the proceedings. With these two sites you should get a big dose of Presbyterian polity in action!!
Click to expand...




Thank you, but what is the Star Judicial Chamber and why is this Jordan going off about those on the committee? Prematurely after reading these remarls by Jordan, I am led to believe those on the SJC are acting in a manner the is unprofitable. Can I assume this?


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## DMcFadden

Dr. Clark,

As always, your summary (cf. Davidius above) was most enlightening. What a GREAT abstract of the dispute! I also greatly appreciated your expanded bibliography on the FV. I was mainly wondering about the PCA fight and why Jordan was slamming Sproul, et. al. Obviously, the PCA does not buy the FV nonsense. Was the "due process" used (regarding LA) fair or does Jordan have a legitimate point in his rant?


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## Narnian

DMcFadden said:


> It seems that the more we know (or think we know), the more strident we become. Lord grant that we cultivate the humility of those who know you and the grace to deal with those with whom we disagree.


 Agree wholeheartedly - a sin I struggle with myself.


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## a mere housewife

mvdm said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've wondered in the past why James Jordan has the popularity he does with FV people: I'm wondering it again. Others I know would not descend to this. I hope they won't stand beside it now.
> 
> I agree with Randy, it's very sad. It's appalling, really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heidi,
> 
> Here are my thoughts on that question:
> 
> 
> 
> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to me, though, if FV had been condemned in a more "civil" fashion what kind of proponents it would have. The fact is that, because it is such a pariah in the Reformed mainstream, that it tends to attract the militant. It actually speaks to the kind of people that flock to it when all the major NAPARC bodies are one-by-one condemning it. The folks left supporting it are all those that really know better - the truly converted that are smart enough to see that the rest of the Reformed Church has apostasized and only they are left to keep it together in their Confederation of micro-Churches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Excellent reminder that bad behaviour on the orthodox side may have served to feed the fire.
> 
> If anyone ever wants to see a fine example of how the orthodox can intereact firmly but graciously in a theological dispute, I can send you a link to an archive at Wilson's blog, where Drs. Alan Strange and Nelson Kloosterman defended Mid America's Statement on Justification against Wilson's attack. They did so maturely, graciously, even as they were brutally accused by a number of FV-ers.
> 
> Would that all of us would emulate these fine men.
Click to expand...

 
Thank you, both. Mr. Van Der Molen, could you possibly provide that link in this thread or send it to me U2U? To my knowledge, Rev. Wilson seems to have generally 'played fair' in debate though some people who comment on his blog tend to be about as -ungraciously rabid as some on the other side. One wishes all that kind of clamour would cease as it only serves to obscure what's worth being heard.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Amazing Grace said:


> Thank you, but what is the Star Judicial Chamber and why is this Jordan going off about those on the committee? Prematurely after reading these remarls by Jordan, I am led to believe those on the SJC are acting in a manner the is unprofitable. Can I assume this?


NO, you can not assume this. 

It is not the Star Judicial Chamber either. It is the Standing Judicial Commission.

You can read more about it here.
PCA Indictment of Lousiana Presbytery « Reformed Musings
Reformed Musings


----------



## mvdm

a mere housewife said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heidi,
> 
> Here are my thoughts on that question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent reminder that bad behaviour on the orthodox side may have served to feed the fire.
> 
> If anyone ever wants to see a fine example of how the orthodox can intereact firmly but graciously in a theological dispute, I can send you a link to an archive at Wilson's blog, where Drs. Alan Strange and Nelson Kloosterman defended Mid America's Statement on Justification against Wilson's attack. They did so maturely, graciously, even as they were brutally accused by a number of FV-ers.
> 
> Would that all of us would emulate these fine men.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you, both. Mr. Van Der Molen, could you possibly provide that link in this thread or send it to me U2U? To my knowledge, Rev. Wilson seems to have generally 'played fair' in debate though some people who comment on his blog tend to be about as -ungraciously rabid as some on the other side. One wishes all that kind of clamour would cease as it only serves to obscure what's worth being heard.
Click to expand...


Here's the link: 

BLOG and MABLOG

Yes, generally Wilson plays fair, but here he was over the line charging Mid America with violating the 9th commandment.


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## timmopussycat

Amazing Grace said:


> Thank you, but what is the Star Judicial Chamber and why is this Jordan going off about those on the committee? Prematurely after reading these remarls by Jordan, I am led to believe those on the SJC are acting in a manner the is unprofitable. Can I assume this?



Don't assume anything in the realm of Christian practice without learning about both sides of a question.


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## Amazing Grace

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, but what is the Star Judicial Chamber and why is this Jordan going off about those on the committee? Prematurely after reading these remarls by Jordan, I am led to believe those on the SJC are acting in a manner the is unprofitable. Can I assume this?
> 
> 
> 
> NO, you can not assume this.
> 
> It is not the Star Judicial Chamber either. It is the Standing Judicial Commission.
> 
> You can read more about it here.
> PCA Indictment of Lousiana Presbytery « Reformed Musings
> Reformed Musings
Click to expand...


so Jordan calling it the "Star JC" is a slam against the actions and attitude of the committee?


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## Reformed Covenanter

This confirms my suspicions: James Jordan is a lunatic.


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## Semper Fidelis

Amazing Grace said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, but what is the Star Judicial Chamber and why is this Jordan going off about those on the committee? Prematurely after reading these remarls by Jordan, I am led to believe those on the SJC are acting in a manner the is unprofitable. Can I assume this?
> 
> 
> 
> NO, you can not assume this.
> 
> It is not the Star Judicial Chamber either. It is the Standing Judicial Commission.
> 
> You can read more about it here.
> PCA Indictment of Lousiana Presbytery « Reformed Musings
> Reformed Musings
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so Jordan calling it the "Star JC" is a slam against the actions and attitude of the committee?
Click to expand...


No, it is Jordan acting like a child. The men on the SJC are performing their duties according to their commission. I haven't read anything from any members of the Commission that would give any reason to question the integrity of the process. They're working right now - they haven't even released their results yet.


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## Reformed Covenanter

BTW, who is James Jordan supposed to be imitating in the above picture?


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## wsw201

Daniel Ritchie said:


> BTW, who is James Jordan supposed to be imitating in the above picture?



Groucho Marx. But Groucho was funnier.


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## Amazing Grace

OK Presbyterian's walk with me here before we run.

There is a ruling body called the Genral Assembly of the PCA. This is a group of delegates that determines guidelines for each regional/local presbetery, which then flows down to each congregation within the PCA. The GA is one unit which governs the world wide activities of the denomination correct?

NOw we have the LA presbytery being indicted by the GA for not taking action against the FV proponents.

1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one? 

2) Do they all belong to the same local church?

3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?

4) The SJC, are appointed as the final authority on all matters of doctrine and polity within the GA?


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## Reformed Covenanter

wsw201 said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who is James Jordan supposed to be imitating in the above picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Groucho Marx. But Groucho was funnier.
Click to expand...


Who is that?


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## VictorBravo

Daniel Ritchie said:


> wsw201 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who is James Jordan supposed to be imitating in the above picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Groucho Marx. But Groucho was funnier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is that?
Click to expand...


Wiki:

Groucho Marx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RamistThomist

Amazing Grace said:


> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?



No, it spans several denominations. 



> 2) Do they all belong to the same local church?



No.



> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?



Probably, although some in the OPC would be more interested in Shepherd than FV.


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## Amazing Grace

Spear Dane said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it spans several denominations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Do they all belong to the same local church?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably, although some in the OPC would be more interested in Shepherd than FV.
Click to expand...




Now I am more confused...lol


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## VictorBravo

Amazing Grace said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it spans several denominations.
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably, although some in the OPC would be more interested in Shepherd than FV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I am more confused...lol
Click to expand...


AG, it is very confusing and would probably take a few weeks of research to begin to get a grip on the dynamics.

One thing to keep in mind: Jordan, and many other critics, have no real standing to criticize a given Presbyterian body's disciplinary proceedings because they aren't members of that church. The PCA is proceeding according to its own order. 

And another thing to consider: rhetoric's effectiveness is inversely proportional to level of invective. In other words, as a general rule, the more name-calling you hear, the less you should listen. I think this applies to all things, not just ecclesiastical matters.


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## SEAGOON

Just posted the following to Warfield:

Hi All,

Given that James Jordan's comments were posted here, its only right that his apology on Ron Gleason's blog also be posted.

Gentlemen,

I hereby ask your forgiveness for my several overheated posts over the last few days. I have deleted all but the first, which is the only thing I had any right to post to you; to wit: that there is nothing wrong with anyone's commenting on the public actions and behavior of certain parties in the PCA, behavior that is public and that some regard as shocking and scandalous.

I was out of line in my comments here, partly because the rhetoric I employed is not appropriate in a public blog, and partly because, being neither in the PCA nor a presbyterian, anything beyond a general expression of concern or horror at how these affairs are being conducted is inappropriate.

I allowed my friendship with persons I believe are being wrongfully persecuted to inflame my language, and I wrote in anger, and I should not have done so.

So, please forgive me for having troubled your waters, and be assured that it will not happen again.

Sincerely,

James B. Jordan ​Gary Johnson has asked the rather important question if (as was the case with Reggie Kidd) Jordan will be issuing a personal apology to the men he strongly defamed such as R.C. Sproul, and the SJC. 

Also, I'm wondering how these recent overheated posts differ substantialy from the prior pattern of defamations, which have included this piece published in Biblical Horizons which referred to *"the Warfield List (where idiocy abounds)" *and stated:


> *"Strange’s essay is just a summary report of the OPC Committee report mentioned above. That Report is one of the most amazing series of mindless misreadings and outright deceptions that I think I have ever encountered. It is not far from the kind of internet theoporn that oozes from the Warfield List and other cybergutters. There is no way I’m going to bore you with all the evil contained in this report: If you are really interested, go to www.federalvision.com, where you can read the Report itself and then numerous essays pointing out its stupidities." *



Do Allan Strange, the OPC, and the nearly 700 members of the Warfield List not qualify for an apology and a retraction as well?Your Servant in Christ,

Andy Webb


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## SEAGOON

Amazing Grace said:


> OK Presbyterian's walk with me here before we run.
> 
> There is a ruling body called the Genral Assembly of the PCA. This is a group of delegates that determines guidelines for each regional/local presbetery, which then flows down to each congregation within the PCA. The GA is one unit which governs the world wide activities of the denomination correct?
> 
> NOw we have the LA presbytery being indicted by the GA for not taking action against the FV proponents.
> 
> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?
> 
> 2) Do they all belong to the same local church?
> 
> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?
> 
> 4) The SJC, are appointed as the final authority on all matters of doctrine and polity within the GA?



First I'd recommend you read Dr. Clark's excellent summary entitled "For those of you just tuning in"  it really is intended to bring those new to the topic of the FV controversy up to date.

Also, the "Star" Reference was Jordan's ridiculous analogy to the "Star Chamber" of the English Monarchs. The Star Chamber was a special court stacked with the King's cronies that tried treason cases and was in essence the King's means of ensuring his political enemies were condemned to death.

As I said, read Clark's essay, but here are my short answers to your questions:

1,2&3) No, there are several PCA Presbyteries with FV proponents in them. They include Pacific Northwest, Missouri, and several others. The FV is an amalgamation of theological movements combining elements of Norman Shepherd's theology, the New Perspectives on Paul (Covenant Nomism), Anglo-Catholicism, post-theonomic, emergent/emerging church thought, and various strains of nominalism from Dutch and British sources along with a generous helping of "_here's what I'm thinking today._" It has been gathering momentum since 2002 and the AAPC conference. It's primary means of dissemination have been conferences, the internet, and, sadly, Seminaries. 

Statistically, the number of FV men is tiny, but their influence has been magnified by the internet and because they've been partly successful in co-opting support from the moderate and liberal wings of Reformed churches. The appeal is "its our ox being gored today, but tomorrow it'll be yours!" That and the fact that Doug Wilson and his CREC have gotten behind the movement has made it a worldwide phenom in the Reformed world. 

Also, sadly the more we respond, the more "air time" it gets. Another reason to stop discussing stuff with them, and just stick to discipline.

3) The SJC or Standing Judicial Commission, is a Permanent Commission of the PCA GA. It's members are proposed by the Presbyteries and elected on the floor of the GA. It's purpose is to try the cases referred to the GA as the final court of appeal. It is, in essence, our Supreme Court. Theologically, the majority of members of the court come from the Broadly Evangelical wing of the PCA, in fact our "big steeple" wing has had a lock on the membership of the SJC since its inception, so claims that these guys are in league with or in fact ARE "Strict Subscriptionist" "TRs" should be a source of nothing but humor.


----------



## Quickened

Amazing Grace said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it spans several denominations.
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably, although some in the OPC would be more interested in Shepherd than FV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I am more confused...lol
Click to expand...


I just want to thank you brother for asking the questions that you did. I had some basic questions but you covered those and more. I am on the same level as you (it seems) in terms of understanding this all


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## AV1611

PuritanCovenanter said:


> It is not the Star Judicial Chamber either. It is the Standing Judicial Commission.



My understanding was that JBJ was likening the PCA's Commission with the Star Chamber.


----------



## Quickened

R. Scott Clark said:


> Here are some resources.
> 
> rsc



Thank you sir! I read the first article and it was very helpful as an introduction to this! I will read the others as time permits


----------



## NaphtaliPress

AV1611 said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the Star Judicial Chamber either. It is the Standing Judicial Commission.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding was that JBJ was likening the PCA's Commission with the Star Chamber.
Click to expand...

Which is ironic given the unjust court of the ARC of Tyler Texas fame.


----------



## Zenas

While I hope Mr. Jordan's apology is sincere, and I don't have reason to believe otherwise (I too get highly worked up and it's a sensitive issue for him), I think he definately owes an apology to Dr. Sproul. 

The fact that it is understandable the people get worked up on sesnsitive issues does not mitigate the fact that it needs to be apologized for. I would be held to the same standard, and so should he.


----------



## DMcFadden

SEAGOON said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK Presbyterian's walk with me here before we run.
> 
> There is a ruling body called the Genral Assembly of the PCA. This is a group of delegates that determines guidelines for each regional/local presbetery, which then flows down to each congregation within the PCA. The GA is one unit which governs the world wide activities of the denomination correct?
> 
> NOw we have the LA presbytery being indicted by the GA for not taking action against the FV proponents.
> 
> 1) Do all FV proponents reside in the same presbytery? ie the Louisiana one?
> 
> 2) Do they all belong to the same local church?
> 
> 3) Are there any other presbyteries that have FV proponents in them?
> 
> 4) The SJC, are appointed as the final authority on all matters of doctrine and polity within the GA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First I'd recommend you read Dr. Clark's excellent summary entitled "For those of you just tuning in"  it really is intended to bring those new to the topic of the FV controversy up to date.
> 
> Also, the "Star" Reference was Jordan's ridiculous analogy to the "Star Chamber" of the English Monarchs. The Star Chamber was a special court stacked with the King's cronies that tried treason cases and was in essence the King's means of ensuring his political enemies were condemned to death.
> 
> As I said, read Clark's essay, but here are my short answers to your questions:
> 
> 1,2&3) No, there are several PCA Presbyteries with FV proponents in them. They include Pacific Northwest, Missouri, and several others. The FV is an amalgamation of theological movements combining elements of Norman Shepherd's theology, the New Perspectives on Paul (Covenant Nomism), Anglo-Catholicism, post-theonomic, emergent/emerging church thought, and various strains of nominalism from Dutch and British sources along with a generous helping of "_here's what I'm thinking today._" It has been gathering momentum since 2002 and the AAPC conference. It's primary means of dissemination have been conferences, the internet, and, sadly, Seminaries.
> 
> Statistically, the number of FV men is tiny, but their influence has been magnified by the internet and because they've been partly successful in co-opting support from the moderate and liberal wings of Reformed churches. The appeal is "its our ox being gored today, but tomorrow it'll be yours!" That and the fact that Doug Wilson and his CREC have gotten behind the movement has made it a worldwide phenom in the Reformed world.
> 
> Also, sadly the more we respond, the more "air time" it gets. Another reason to stop discussing stuff with them, and just stick to discipline.
> 
> 3) The SJC or Standing Judicial Commission, is a Permanent Commission of the PCA GA. It's members are proposed by the Presbyteries and elected on the floor of the GA. It's purpose is to try the cases referred to the GA as the final court of appeal. It is, in essence, our Supreme Court. Theologically, the majority of members of the court come from the Broadly Evangelical wing of the PCA, in fact our "big steeple" wing has had a lock on the membership of the SJC since its inception, so claims that these guys are in league with or in fact ARE "Strict Subscriptionist" "TRs" should be a source of nothing but humor.
Click to expand...


Wow! That is exactly what I was looking for. Between this and Dr. Clark's blog, it makes sense now. Thank you!


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## holyfool33

I recently read that it is very sad to see men stoop so low but it just shows the bankruptcy of the system.


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## HaigLaw

*good insight*



SEAGOON said:


> And yes, its always a conflict of sinful men vs. sinful men, the only difference between them being grace and the gospel, in and of themselves there usually isn't much difference and sometimes the "nice guys" are on the side of error. No one, for instance, argued that Machen was more of a "people person" than his opponents. In any event, Church discipline can be likened to the end of _Old Yeller_, its an awful, sad job but it has to be done.



I found the excerpt above helpful. Most of us don't have the stomach for this, but we have to wade through it anyway.


----------

