# Question about animals



## cih1355

Is there any part of an animal that is incorporeal? Do animals have souls, thoughts, intentions, or a will?


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## Zenas

The only source we have would suggest a strong no. 

There seems to be three categories of creations dilneated in Scripture: ethereal (angels/demons), physical (animals) and hybrids possessing both natures (humans). Angels are no more physical than animals are angelic, and we seem to be the only exception to the creative distinction. The idea is best outlined in a Lewis quote, which I have forogtten and do not have.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Eccl. 3.21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Fisher's Catechism:



> Q. 10.16. In what does the soul of man differ from the spirit or life of a beast?
> 
> A. The spirit or life of a beast goes downward to the earth, and perishes at its death, Eccles 3:21; but the soul of man, being rational and immortal, "returns to God who gave it," Eccles 12:7.


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## Reformed Covenanter

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Eccl. 3.21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
> 
> Fisher's Catechism:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q. 10.16. In what does the soul of man differ from the spirit or life of a beast?
> 
> A. The spirit or life of a beast goes downward to the earth, and perishes at its death, Eccles 3:21; but the soul of man, being rational and immortal, "returns to God who gave it," Eccles 12:7.
Click to expand...


Therefore, all ideas of an animal heaven are wrong.


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## Grymir

Greetings cih1355!

I'll take a stab at it. First biblical for the soul part, then philosophical for the thought processes.

In Gen 2:7 it reads "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The animals were called into being and they appeared in the creation, i.e. Let the earth bring forth the living thing according to his kind, cattle, and that which creepeth, and the beast of the earth according to his kind, and it was so. (Gen 1:24). The after his kind, or its kind is relevant. God breathed life into us, and not the animals. We are made in the image of God, but the animals are made after their kind. So they probably do not have a 'soul'. The Bible is not explicit on such things, so we have to use some logic and deduct our best judgment, so I am not speaking ex cathedra here.

For the rest of your question, the thoughts, intentions, or will, we have to turn to theology's handmaiden, philosophy to deduce some thoughts. The way our thought processes work. We receive perceptions from our senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell). This is the raw material we get and we share this part with the animals. Humans take those raw perceptions and we turn them into concepts. Then with new information, we refine our concepts (this is part that the animals can't do) so that we integrate more information and expand our concepts. That's the higher thought processes that seperates humans from animals. They work on an instinctual level. However, there perceptions are far greater than ours. They can see better, smell better, hear better than us. So they have an advanage over us in these areas. We have to build tools to do what they can do naturally. They can be trained to do repeditive motions and actions. Even humans who don't train there brains operate on an animal level (look at the kids who listen to rap music, or go to public school. They almost have an anti-conceptual mentality!) Will is a another matter. They do have that part, kind of. i.e., find food, smell deer, chase deer, kill deer, eat, eat, eat would think the wolf. whereas we would think, "I'm hungry, what should I have, cereal, pop-tarts, or fry some eggs?". 

I saw on your profile page that you are 8 yrs old, so I hope this helps. This is the cliff notes version. The bible isn't clear on your question, but it's a great way to learn how to use the bible as a starting point in all our knowledge. God Bless!


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## DMcFadden

Evangelical philosopher J.P. Moreland does suggest that animals have souls of sorts. Admitting that animals do not have human souls, in their book _Beyond Death_, Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland point out, "It wasn't until the advent of seventeenth-century Enlightenment … that the existence of animal souls was even questioned in Western civilization. Throughout the history of the church, the classic understanding of living things has included the doctrine that animals, as well as humans, have souls" (p. 293). These souls are finite, however, and cease to exist when the animal dies. His conclusion was drawn from his analysis of the words for animals in Genesis and Revelation. 

Interesting.


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## Reformed Covenanter

DMcFadden said:


> Evangelical philosopher J.P. Moreland does suggest that animals have souls of sorts. Admitting that animals do not have human souls, in their book _Beyond Death_, Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland point out, "It wasn't until the advent of seventeenth-century Enlightenment … that the existence of animal souls was even questioned in Western civilization. Throughout the history of the church, the classic understanding of living things has included the doctrine that animals, as well as humans, have souls" (p. 293).
> 
> Interesting.



I would respond to that with the words of your avatar.


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## Zenas

Dennis,

I died laughing at the sight of your avatar.

In regard to Mooreland, isn't he the guy that accused evangeligals of "Bibliolatry"?


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## Grymir

yeah DMcFadden. (I was asked to change mine waah.)

We also don't teach the Great Chain of Being anymore either.


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## Denton Elliott

I would say that the Bible actually divides animals into kinds, those with the breath of life and those without. So accordingly, animals that breath air are a little "higher" than ones that don't.

Now, only mankind has a spirit/soul that endures for all eternity (in the likeness and image of God). This means we are special from all other created things and animals!

So do animals go to heaven!? I truly don't know and I believe the Bible is silent on this...but maybe your pets will be with you?


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## DMcFadden

Zenas said:


> Dennis,
> 
> I died laughing at the sight of your avatar.
> 
> In regard to Mooreland, isn't he the guy that accused evangeligals of "Bibliolatry"?



J.P. Moreland is a philosopher at Southern California's Biola/Talbot. He is a Dallas ThM, USC PhD who has written hundreds of journal articles, books, etc. A most prolific guy. He is Arminian, Vineyard leaning, and yes, he did stir up a hornets nest with his somewhat misunderstood comments at the ETS meeting last November 21 (Postcard from San Diego: Fighting 'Bibliolatry' at the Evangelical Theological Society | Liveblog | Christianity Today)

I didn't say I agreed with him . . . just found it "interesting" that one of evangelicalism's top thinkers made the observation. By the way Daniel, I think you responded before seeing my edited post that these are not "immortal" souls.


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## Reformed Covenanter

DMcFadden said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dennis,
> 
> I died laughing at the sight of your avatar.
> 
> In regard to Mooreland, isn't he the guy that accused evangeligals of "Bibliolatry"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J.P. Moreland is a philosopher at Southern California's Biola/Talbot. He is a Dallas ThM, USC PhD who has written hundreds of journal articles, books, etc. A most prolific guy. He is Arminian, Vineyard leaning, and yes, he did stir up a hornets nest with his somewhat misunderstood commentsw at the ETS meeting last November 21 (Postcard from San Diego: Fighting 'Bibliolatry' at the Evangelical Theological Society | Liveblog | Christianity Today)
> 
> I didn't say I agreed with him . . . just found it "interesting" that one of evangelicalism's top thinkers made the observation. By the way Daniel, I think you responded before seeing my edited post that these are not "immortal" souls.
Click to expand...


Yes, I responded before your editing.


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## SRoper

The ancients would be very confused if you told them animals don't have souls. I mean they breathe and they're animated, right? Of course they have souls! As pointed out earlier, Ecclesiastes is pretty clear that animals have souls of some kind.



Denton Elliott said:


> So do animals go to heaven!? I truly don't know and I believe the Bible is silent on this...but maybe your pets will be with you?



According to Rev. 22:15 there are no dogs in heaven.


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## bookslover

I just asked my cat if she is an intelligent, conscious, soulful being. She said no.


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## Southern Presbyterian

bookslover said:


> I just asked my cat if she is an intelligent, conscious, soulful being. She said no.



Well, there you have it. Straight from the horse's... errr... cat's mouth. 

And truer words were never spoken by man nor beast.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, _The Christian's Reasonable Service_, Vol. 1, pp. 310-311:



> Each human has but _one soul_. There are three types of souls. There is _anima vegetativa_, which we wish to refer to as the _soul of growth_, whereby trees and herbs are said to exist. There is _anima sensitiva_, or the _soul of sensitivity_, whereby animals exist and are sensitive to their environment. This, according to Scripture, is to be found in the blood of animals. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11); "For the blood is the life" (Deu. 12:23). There is _anima rationalis_, or the _rational soul_, which we have just described and referred to as _rational_ since by its agency man reasons and makes decisions.
> ...
> Thirdly, every animal exists independently by virtue of his soul and is thus an independent being.


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## SIXDAYZ

Denton Elliott said:


> So do animals go to heaven!? I truly don't know and I believe the Bible is silent on this...



 What about Isaiah 65?

Even if the Bible is silent on this... we can still deduce a reasonable answer by pulling some concepts from what the Bible is not silent about.

1) I'm pretty sure the Bible teaches the "restoration of *ALL* things" Acts 3:21 

2) God is extravagantly gracious... "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

3) It is certain that the ancients, like Isaiah understood the future Kingdom to be "Earth Restored" - not a cosmic worship service with harps and clouds, etc... you know the image. 

Read this section from Isaiah... no one can dispute the context is in reference to the "New Heavens and New Earth"...

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. 
“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness. 
“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying. 
“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed. 
“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 
“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands. 
“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them. 
“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 
“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.

From this text, I cannot understand how biblical scholars - or some of you distinguished gentlemen - can come to the conclusion (and sometimes so concretely) that animals will not be apart of the Eternal Kingdom. I think the nature of our great God should cause us to lean to the side of grace, rather than "human-inclusivism". Hey... I think I just came up with a new theological term?? 

So, here's my answer to my son when his dog dies... "Kam, we don't know for sure if we'll see Max in Heaven, but I'll tell you what... I wouldn't put it past our amazing God. He cares for even the birds, he cares for you, and I know he cares about Max too... if you want to pray for God to resurrect Max, than, come on... let's pray."

Our God is good.... and His power is limitless.


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## DMcFadden

No claim to animals having immortal souls here. But, my dog, Mac, has considerably more sense to fulfill his God-given role than many of the people in my former mainline denomination.

Plus, when I listen to lectures on Calvinism, Christian philosophy, and such on my iPod (while exercising on the treadmill), he sits attentively and "listens" along. At times, he tilts his head and seems to want to add to the discussion.







He looked quite dapper at my son and daughter-in-law's wedding reception in his tux, don't you think?


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## Grymir

Hail and Well Met Sixdayz!

I had to reply to - From this text, I cannot understand how biblical scholars - or some of you distinguished gentlemen - can come to the conclusion (and sometimes so concretely) that animals will not be apart of the Eternal Kingdom. I think the nature of our great God should cause us to lean to the side of grace, rather than "human-inclusivism". Hey... I think I just came up with a new theological term?? 

We were not discussing that animals will be apart of the Eternal Kingdom, but rather do animals have souls? And yea, it's Human-inclusivism because Jesus was a human. Yea, the whole universe gets restored, but the discussion was about souls, thoughts, intentins and wills. Sorry, but i had to put in my 2 cents. We even may have dinasaurs in 'heaven' when we get there. Yea, i know, looking into a kids face dripping with tears can be tough. Just wanted to clarify the discussion. God Bless.


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## SIXDAYZ

Adorable...


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## Grymir

Yea DMcFadden! Didn't God say something about the Horses and Donkeys listen to their master voice and know where to sleep at night, but my people have rebeled and closed their ears to me, saith the Lord.


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## SIXDAYZ

Grymir said:


> We were not discussing that animals will be apart of the Eternal Kingdom, but rather do animals have souls? And yea, it's Human-inclusivism because Jesus was a human. Yea, the whole universe gets restored, but the discussion was about souls, thoughts, intentins and wills. Sorry, but i had to put in my 2 cents. We even may have dinasaurs in 'heaven' when we get there. Yea, i know, looking into a kids face dripping with tears can be tough. Just wanted to clarify the discussion. God Bless.



Hey Grymir,

I was responding to this kind of hard line thinking... 


Daniel Ritchie said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, all ideas of an animal heaven are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we can make the connection of "animals do not have eternal souls... therefore they will not be heaven"... I just don't think that kind of reasoning works. That's all I was trying to get across.
> 
> Also - it is very clear that animals have souls or spirits... whatever you want to call it. However, only Man was made in the image of God, and therefore, only Man is eternal. But, you are right, that is another issue entirely...
> 
> I consider animals to be apart of creation, which will be restored. Including their souls... there's no reason why we cannot hope, or even expect that God will ressurect the souls of some...
> 
> "Elect animals"  just a thought.
Click to expand...


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## Grymir

Sixdayz - thanks, i missed that line. Poodles will never be among the Elect animals!


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## Pergamum

If earthly paradise had fruits and animals for the pleasure of man and if our relationship to our pets is, in some way, an echo of that first arrangement between man and beast, it appears that paradise restored might be very "natural" and "physical" as well; including gardens and animals where we can walk with God in the cool of the day.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> If earthly paradise had fruits and animals for the pleasure of man and if our relationship to our pets is, in some way, an echo of that first arrangement between man and beast, it appears that paradise restored might be very "natural" and "physical" as well; including gardens and animals where we can walk with God in the cool of the day.



Perhaps, but those would surely be different animals from the ones that have died.


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## SueS

Grymir said:


> Sixdayz - thanks, i missed that line. Poodles will never be among the Elect animals!






Hey! You've been listening to too much Ken Hamm!!!


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## SIXDAYZ

Grymir said:


> Sixdayz - thanks, i missed that line. Poodles will never be among the Elect animals!


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## Denton Elliott

I believe there is evidence in the Bible that lions and lambs will indeed be in Heaven! From this I would infer that animals will indeed be present in Heaven. I believe the Bible is silent regarding our particular earthly pets being restored in Heaven
Maybe they will though?
I definitely wouldn't start a new denomination over it though!  Nor would I start tithing to PETA!


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## Grymir

Hi y'all! There's room for all God's creatures, right next to the mashed potatoes. Call me just another - People Eating Tasty Animals. Yea, Ken Hamm influence me right after my conversion. He really helped me in getting my epistimology down.


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## SIXDAYZ

Ooooh...

Doesn't Ken Ham (and the Bible) teach that all things were (in the beginning) very good and all animals were vegans?? Many people think that is the way it will be on the new Earth (no more death)... Yikes!!! 

Enjoy your steak while you're here brother!


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## Grymir

Hi Sixdayz. here's the bible verses. first after the creation in Gen 1:

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 

so, unfortunatly, they were vegans.

But don't lose hope, after the flood, in Gen 3:

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 

So now we are commanded to eat meat! Those vegans are breaking the laws of God!!
So yes, I will eat my Ribeye while i'm here! 

By the way, is sixdays you name because you are a young earth creationist?


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## SIXDAYZ

Yea brother, I am... 

My ministry SIXDAYZ.com is based on presuppositional-apologetics... with a strong emphasis on creation ex nihilo. My website is still brand new, so there's not a lot there yet, but there's a ton of stuff in my brain!

When I first believed on Christ, I struggled inwardly with the concept of the supernatural. I considered myself a conservative, thinking college mind... I wanted to believe, but there were some hurdles to get over. So I prayed fervently that God would reveal these mysteries to me. The next day, a coworker gave me the creation seminar by Kent Hovind audio files... for the next two months, I couldn't unplug from the subject. I went down every rabbit hole, every objection... and I was convinced rather easily.

Albeit, now I consider my beloved brother, Kent, to be a little on the "fringy-side"... (who is now in jail for tax fraud - yikes!) however, there is no doubt that I am where I am today because God used his unwavering belief in the inerrancy of the Bible to convince me of the same.

So... long story short, I soon moved on to more careful resources - like AiG. I have sympathy for the view that there may have been an "inumerable amount of time" between Gen. 1 & 2... followed by a literal 6 day creation. I don't agree... but I sympathize. That said, I believe that any non-literal interpretation of Genesis is unbiblical, and leads to all kinds of liberalism. I wouldn't say "heretic"... but pretty close. In my mind, the god of evolution, is NOT the GOD of the Bible. I believe the earth is somewhere between 6 - 10,000 years old. It's funny when people find out that an intelligent, seemingly sane American can believe that - they look at you like you're in some kind of cool-aid sipping cult.


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## Puritan Sailor

> Romans 8:19-22
> For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.


What does a liberated creation look like? Perhaps similar to what is was before it was put in bondage? I see no reason why the new earth would not have new animals.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Puritan Sailor said:


> Romans 8:19-22
> For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
> 
> 
> 
> What does a liberated creation look like? Perhaps similar to what is was before it was put in bondage? I see no reason why the new earth would not have new animals.
Click to expand...


Though it would have to be new animals, not the old ones resurrected?


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## Pergamum

The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!


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## SueS

Pergamum said:


> The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!





Gotta include ticks in that category as well - nasty little buggers!!!

Dd and I attended an AiG conference during our hs days - I don't know how much she got out of it but I was fascinated, especially by the account of why the structure of the eye could not possibly have evolved. Then of course, was Ken's...ahem...love of poodles!!!


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## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!



I wonder what they were like before the fall.


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## SueS

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what they were like before the fall.
Click to expand...




That's simple - they were vegans and feasted on tofu!!


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## caddy

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Eccl. 3.21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
> 
> Fisher's Catechism:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q. 10.16. In what does the soul of man differ from the spirit or life of a beast?
> 
> A. The spirit or life of a beast goes downward to the earth, and perishes at its death, Eccles 3:21; but the soul of man, being rational and immortal, "returns to God who gave it," Eccles 12:7.
Click to expand...

 
My wife will NOT like this Andrew....


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## caddy

SueS said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what they were like before the fall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's simple - they were vegans and feasted on tofu!!
Click to expand...

 
Ummm

Tofu Deer!


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## SIXDAYZ

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The flip side, however, is that all mosquitos go to hell. They are all reprobate...every last one of them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what they were like before the fall.
Click to expand...


I found this, and thought it was pretty interesting... It's from an AiG article...

"The mosquitoes comprise the first group of interest. It appears that only the females of certain mosquito species actually consume blood. The reason blood is needed is because

‘females, at emergence, have only partly developed ovaries. This requires a source of nitrogen to complete ovarian development and reach maturity.’36

Mosquitoes that do not draw blood find nutrition by feeding on plant nectar.37 So it seems that only a portion of mosquitoes use blood, and it is only mammalian blood. This amount would not include males since they do not consume blood. Nor would it include those few species where the females use nectar. So the percentage needing blood is under 50% of the total mosquito population. This could suggest that at some point in history a change took place that caused only some female mosquitoes to use blood as food."


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## Grymir

Umm, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins?  Actually, It is great further proof of the fall and nature being curse. Hmm, maybe the mosquitoes will feast on poodles?? Gosh, Being a Christion can be hard, i.e. not continuing in our favorite sins, but now heaven is going to be populated by tofu deers. Gheez, "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Which would lead to the next deep theological question - will there be A-1 sauce in heaven?


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## SueS

So.....would you rather have tofu deer or yappy poodles in heaven?


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## Grymir




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## cih1355

I emailed Answers In Genesis concerning about whether or not animals have souls and this is the response I received:

Dear Curt,

Thank you for contacting Answers in Genesis.

Animals do have souls, unlike plants. The late Dr. Henry Morris, founder and president of the Institute for Creation Research, comments on this topic in the notes to his Defender's Study Bible, with reference to Genesis 1:21. He states:


'...animals possess another entity--that of consciousness--which plants do not possess, and this required a second act of true creation. Such consciousness is the essential meaning of the Hebrew word nephesh, commonly translated "soul," but here in its first occurrence translated "life," and then in the next verse "living creature." In Genesis 2:7, referring to man, it is rendered "living soul." Thus, both men and animals possess the specially-created nephesh.' 


If you do not own a copy of the late Dr. Morris’ newly revised and expanded Defender’s Study Bible, I would highly recommend it to you. His notes are extremely insightful, both from a theological and a scientific viewpoint. I have used this study Bible for many years and appreciate the insights it contains. The link is:



Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics



Man has one more entity to his being, that of the image of God (Genesis 1:26), an eternal spirit capable of communion and fellowship with his Creator. Animals do not possess a spirit.



I pray this helps. God bless as you partner with us this year to help us impact the culture, one life at a time!


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## SRoper

If I'm reading the AiG answer correctly they seem to be saying that man is made up of three parts: body, soul, and spirit. This is false as even a cursory look at how Scripture uses the words reveals.


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