# Questionable Hymns



## Marrow Man

We are often having discussions on the Puritan Board concerning the favorite hymns of PBers. But I was interested in the existence of hymns with, let's say, "questionable" theology (some more questionable than others).

There are at least two aspects I would like to consider. First, if the author of the hymn was notoriously unorthodox, that should render the hymn suspect. For example, Julia Ward Howe, who wrote "Battle Hymn of the Republic," was a Unitarian. I am wonder about suspect authors of other famous hymns. And if the author of the hymn was grossly unorthodox, should we be singing the hymn?

Second, which hymns simply have bad theology? The most hideous hymn I can think of is "In the Garden," but there are others with bad theology, such as "The Savior Is Waiting." Are there others that can be mentioned?

Note: this thread is not to debate psalmody v. hymnody. Any posts of this sort will be unceremoniously deleted.


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## DMcFadden

"The Free Will Song"


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## Marrow Man

DMcFadden said:


> "The Free Will Song"



I've never heard of that one, Dennis. That's an actual hymn?

BTW, we should probably include praise songs in this discussion. What's the famous one by Phillips (no relation), Craig, and Dean (who are all Modalists)?


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## Pergamum

That hymn that lotsa people sing on Easter about, "I know that Jesus lives...because He lives within my heart"(just as in sentimental movies where grandpa still "lives on" in our memories and in our hearts...").


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## au5t1n

"Above All" might qualify. I was going to say, "The Savior is Waiting," but you already covered that one. 

Are you familiar with the contemporary song that has the lyrics "heaven met earth like a sloppy wet kiss"?


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## Montanablue

I think "It came upon a midnight clear" has some issues. There are a couple of different versions (and I don't have one in front of me now - so I can't quote any particular lines), but there seems to be a lot about angel wings brushing earth and gold harps and not a lot about Christ.


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## JML

Marrow Man said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Free Will Song"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of that one, Dennis. That's an actual hymn?
> 
> BTW, we should probably include praise songs in this discussion. What's the famous one by Phillips (no relation), Craig, and Dean (who are all Modalists)?
Click to expand...


Are you talking about "Friend of God"?

How about Chris Rice's "Cartoon Song"?


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## Archlute

The Free Will Song is not a hymn, if Dennis is referring to the same one I am thinking about. It is a painfully rendered choral piece sung by a group of youth from BJU or some similar place. Please, don't watch it. You were warned in advance.


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## DMcFadden

Adam, I was taking the broader sense of a Christian song sung in public worship. This fits that bill, albeit . . . yech!!!
I know of two "Free Will" songs . . . 

The most common is "I Give You Freedom" (The Whippoorwill Song)

I set the boundries of the ocean vast,
Carved out the mountains from the distant past,
Moulded a man from the miry clay,
Breathed in him life, but he went astray.

CHORUS:
I own the cattle on a thousand hills,
I write the music for the whippoorwills,
Control the planets with their rocks and rills,
But give you freedom to use your own will.

And if you want Me to, I’ll make you whole,
I’ll only do it though’ if you say so.
I’ll never force you, for I love you so,
I give you freedom – Is it “yes” or “no”?

I hold the waters in My mighty hand
Spread out the heavens with a single span,
Make all creation tremble at My voice,
But My own children come to Me by choice.
(chorus)

Even the oxen knows the master’s stall,
And sheep will recognize the shepherd’s call
I could demand your love – I own you twice,
But only willing love is worth the price!
(chorus)

My holy word now I give to you,
As a shining lamp to guide you through,
My yoke is easy and My burden is light,
Keep looking up, your Heavenly home’s in sight.
(chorus)

But, then, there is this one too . . .

Lyrics:
To the maker of this house
The holder of the key
I gave You my heart
But held some back for me
Someday I would give You
Everything I am
But I stole my road to freedom
I took the key and ran
Disconnected
With my hands over my ears
You said You would meet me
If I’d reach out

Chorus
I got a free will
I’m gonna use it
I got a free will
Yes, I do
I got a free will
I’m gonna use it
I got a free will
Yes, I do

Thank You for this gift
It’s still a mystery
My freedom in Your hands
Is how it’s meant to be
It’s only when I give You
Everything I am
Bittersweet surrender
Take me

Chorus
(I’m gonna choose it)

Something ain’t right
You gotta let it go
Something ain’t right
You gotta let it go

I’m gonna make it right
I’m letting go
And it’s up to me
I got a free will

Chorus
(And I’ve got to lose it)

So I give my free will
Back to You
Yes I do
The Son has set me free
And I am free indeed


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## Montanablue

Is the above song a joke? (This is a serious question).


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## AThornquist

Marrow Man said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> \"The Free Will Song\"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of that one, Dennis. That's an actual hymn?
> 
> BTW, we should probably include praise songs in this discussion. What's the famous one by Phillips (no relation), Craig, and Dean (who are all Modalists)?
Click to expand...



The Free Will Song is more like a praise song. There is a very moving (ugh) rendition of the song by the Pensacola worship group on YouTube.

I'm not sure which song my Philips, Craig & Dean you are referring to. I love their music. Sure they are Oneness Pentecostals but much of their music is biblical and a joy to listen to. There were a few songs that I didn't care for and deleted from iTunes (I don't remember why), so you may be referring to one of those.

Oh hey, this is a different song from Dennis'. Never mind, Dennis edited and added this one while I was posting 

[video=youtube;IrczyFvkv8Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrczyFvkv8Q[/video]


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## JTB

I've heard of someone who detests the line from Away in a Manger that speaks about Jesus not crying as a baby because it is an implicit denial of Christ's full humanity.


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## au5t1n

The song "Your Name" by Phillips, Craig, and Dean would be fine (as far as I remember) if you don't know their theology, but when you read the lyrics bearing in mind what Oneness Pentecostals believe about Jesus-only baptism and Jesus' name being magic, it gives the lyrics new meaning.


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## DMcFadden

Montanablue said:


> Is the above song a joke? (This is a serious question).



Listen to the video that AThornquist posted. That is a SERIOUS song sung by earnest and pious people at the funamentalist Pennsacola Christian College.


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## Archlute

I do believe that you should have your post count reset to zero, and only be allowed to make thread-relevant posts in the intro section until you have reached your original post count before ever being allowed to embed a video on the PB again...


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## AThornquist

There is a CD by Michael Poirier called "Healing after the Choice." It's really bad.


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## au5t1n

What do you guys think of this one:



> Crucified
> Laid behind a stone
> You lived to die
> Rejected and alone
> Like a rose
> Trampled on the ground
> You took the fall
> And *thought of me
> Above all*



It's sad because the melody of this song is really good.


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## DMcFadden

Here are some . . . 

25. "God is She and He Together"
31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"


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## AThornquist

Archlute said:


> I do believe that you should have your post count reset to zero, and only be allowed to make thread-relevant posts in the intro section until you have reached your original post count before ever being allowed to embed a video on the PB again...



 If you "Search" for it there are many threads containing the video already. It's not new the PB, meester.


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## Berean

DMcFadden said:


> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. "God is She and He Together"
> 31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
> 34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
> 35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
> 36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
> 38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
> 45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
> 47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
> 48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
> 49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
> 51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"



Hymns from Hell


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## Archlute

AThornquist said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe that you should have your post count reset to zero, and only be allowed to make thread-relevant posts in the intro section until you have reached your original post count before ever being allowed to embed a video on the PB again...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you "Search" for it there are many threads containing the video already. It's not new the PB, meester.
Click to expand...



Ban the whole lot of you


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## au5t1n

DMcFadden said:


> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. "God is She and He Together"
> 31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
> 34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
> 35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
> 36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
> 38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
> 45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
> 47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
> 48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
> 49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
> 51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"


Surely - SURELY - these aren't real!


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## BertMulder

JTB said:


> I've heard of someone who detests the line from Away in a Manger that speaks about Jesus not crying as a baby because it is an implicit denial of Christ's full humanity.




I hate that line also, as well as the above reason as the dreadfull english:

'not a crying he makes'...

makes me cringe everytime I hear it.

Just as this rendition of the song of simeon is terrible:


_Lord, in thy temple we appear,
As happy Simeon came,
And hope to meet our Savior here,
Oh! make our joys the same!

With what divine and vast delight
The good old man was filled,
When fondly in his withered arms
He clasped the holy child.

"Now I can leave this world," he cried,
"Behold, thy servant dies!
I've seen thy great salvation, Lord,
And close my peaceful eyes.

"This is the light prepared to shine 
Upon the Gentile lands;
Thine Israel's glory and their hope,
To break their slavish bands."

Jesus! the vision of thy face
Hath overpowering charms!
Scarce shall I feel death's cold embrace,
If Christ be in my arms.

When flesh shall fail, and heart-strings break,
Sweet will the minutes roll;
A mortal paleness on my cheek,
But glory in my soul._

As if he about collapses dead in the courtyard of the temple...

In addition, taking a lot of liberty with his actual song as rendered in Scripture...


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## JTB

austinww said:


> What do you guys think of this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crucified
> Laid behind a stone
> You lived to die
> Rejected and alone
> Like a rose
> Trampled on the ground
> You took the fall
> And *thought of me
> Above all*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's sad because the melody of this song is really good.
Click to expand...


The nice thing about this song is that you can amend the lyrics and still retain consonance with the melody:

Simply change "and thought of me" to "for God's glory" or "for your glory"


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## Christusregnat

Touch Not, Taste Not, Handle Not a beloved temperance "hymn".


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## au5t1n

If I'm not mistaken, that line from "Away in a Manger" is referring to the fact that, in the song, baby Jesus is asleep. Remember, at that point in the song, we've long since heard "The little Lord Jesus, asleep on the hay." So it says nothing about him _never_ crying...Right?


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## Christusregnat

http://www.puritanboard.com/f51/touch-not-taste-not-51725/


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## Hamalas

On of my favorite hymns was always "It is Well with my Soul" But something I just recently learned is that the author, Horatio Spafford, had some serious theological issues! I assume that most of you are familiar with the basic story of his life (i.e. business burns down in Chicago, children die at sea, wife dies in a train wreck, etc...) but after all that he moved to Israel with his daughter and set up some kind of end-times cult. Now I have never noticed anything theologically suspect within that song, but how should the authors weird theology affect our use of an otherwise good song?


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## au5t1n

Christusregnat said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f51/touch-not-taste-not-51725/


Wow, that's ironic, given that the verse on which the song is based is a rebuke against exactly the attitude the hymn promotes. It's the very definition of irony!


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## JTB

austinww said:


> If I'm not mistaken, that line from "Away in a Manger" is referring to the fact that, in the song, baby Jesus is asleep. Remember, at that point in the song, we've long since heard "The little Lord Jesus, asleep on the hay." So it says nothing about him _never_ crying...Right?



Nope, he's awake.

The cattle a lowing,
The baby *awakes,*
But little lord Jesus,
No crying he makes.


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## DMcFadden

austinww said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. \"God is She and He Together\"
> 31. \"Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide\"
> 34. \"O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power\"
> 35. \"Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle\"
> 36. \"Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling\"
> 38. \"Our Mother-Father God Is Near\"
> 45. \"Come, Sister-Brother Sprit\"
> 47. \"Father-Mother, Kind and Loving\"
> 48. \"Womb of All Creation Flowing\"
> 49. \"Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen\"
> 51. \"O Christ-Sophia, Rise\"
> 
> 
> 
> Surely - SURELY - these aren't real!
Click to expand...


YES, they ARE real!!! "Inclusive Hymns For Liberating Christians" ISBN: 978-1571688606
Amazon has it if you want a spiral bound copy. I can't remember if I borrowed my copy from Marrow Man or Archlute???   
Amazon.com: Inclusive Hymns for Liberating Christians (9781571688606): Jann Aldredge-Clanton, Larry E. Schultz: Books

You can pretty much find this stuff in many/most of the mainline denoms. Beware of anything being advertised as "feminist," "womynist," "inclusive," or "progressive."


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## au5t1n

Please infract me for quoting such blasphemy! I beg you!



DMcFadden said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. "God is She and He Together"
> 31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
> 34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
> 35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
> 36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
> 38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
> 45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
> 47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
> 48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
> 49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
> 51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"
> 
> 
> 
> Surely - SURELY - these aren't real!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YES, they ARE real!!!
Click to expand...


-----Added 10/26/2009 at 11:05:20 EST-----

But seriously, where do those come from; some sort of PCUSA hymnal?


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## Grillsy

A terrible one was already mentioned in the OP..."Battle Hymn of the Republic" written by a Unitarian. If you know why and when the song was written it becomes even worse. 

Now, if you'll excuse me, i'm off to whistle Dixie.


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## DMcFadden

Where do these songs come from? See above edit to my post (#31).


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## DMcFadden

*“Let Jesus Come into Your Heart,” by Lelia N. Morris.*
If you are tired of the load of your sin, let Jesus come into your heart;
if you desire a new life to begin, let Jesus come into your heart.
If ’tis for purity now that you sigh, let Jesus come into your heart:
fountains for cleansing are flowing near by; let Jesus come into your heart.
If there’s a tempest your voice cannot still, let Jesus come into your heart;
if there’s a void this world never can fill, let Jesus come into your heart.
If you would join the glad songs of the blest, let Jesus come into your heart;
if you would enter the mansions of rest, let Jesus come into your heart.

*Refrain:* Just now, your doubtings give o’er;
just now, reject Him no more;
just now, throw open the door;
let Jesus come into your heart.

*Or, how about this one? "The Savior is Waiting."*

The Savior is waiting to enter your heart,
Why don’t you let Him come in?
There’s nothing in this world to keep you apart,
What is your answer to Him?
If you’ll take one step t’ward the Savior, my friend,
You’ll find His arms open wide;
Receive him, and all of your darkness will end,
Within your heart He’ll abide.

*Refrain:* Time after time he has waited before,
And now He is waiting again
To see if you’re willing to open the door,
O, how He wants to come in.


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## ewenlin

Ugh. Why did I stumble into this thread. What a way to start the morning.


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## VaughanRSmith

There's always "emptied himself of all but love..."


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## MarieP

JTB said:


> I've heard of someone who detests the line from Away in a Manger that speaks about Jesus not crying as a baby because it is an implicit denial of Christ's full humanity.



That line's given me trouble each time I sing it. Is there good reason for me to be troubled by it, or no?

-----Added 10/27/2009 at 06:04:56 EST-----



Hamalas said:


> On of my favorite hymns was always "It is Well with my Soul" But something I just recently learned is that the author, Horatio Spafford, had some serious theological issues! I assume that most of you are familiar with the basic story of his life (i.e. business burns down in Chicago, children die at sea, wife dies in a train wreck, etc...) but after all that he moved to Israel with his daughter and set up some kind of end-times cult. Now I have never noticed anything theologically suspect within that song, but how should the authors weird theology affect our use of an otherwise good song?



We sing songs written by Wesley...and Watts supposedly was not the most consistent man on the doctrine of the Trinity.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5M...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw


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## FenderPriest

"I'll Fly Away" has always rubbed me the wrong way for what seems to me an undiluted gnostic view of the physical world being the bad stuff, not sin.

Also, a note on "Above All". Paul Baloche wrote that song, and it has classically been taken to town for that last unfortunate line in the chorus. Bob Kauflin discusses the weaknesses of the song in his book, Worship Matters, and has discusses the problems with Baloche who confesses the way the song has been taken wasn't his intent. Even still, Baloche wrote the commending forward to Kauflin's book where he critiques his own song! What humility!


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## P.F.

Wesley's "And Can it Be that I should Gain"

Leaving aside the fact that the title reminds me of a bad diet:

"In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine."

Firstborn seraph???


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## MarieP

Hamalas said:


> On of my favorite hymns was always "It is Well with my Soul" But something I just recently learned is that the author, Horatio Spafford, had some serious theological issues! I assume that most of you are familiar with the basic story of his life (i.e. business burns down in Chicago, children die at sea, wife dies in a train wreck, etc...) but after all that he moved to Israel with his daughter and set up some kind of end-times cult. Now I have never noticed anything theologically suspect within that song, but how should the authors weird theology affect our use of an otherwise good song?



I just remembered that there was a SS a few years ago on Spafford's life:

SermonAudio.com - Reformed Baptist Church

Taught by a USS Cole survivor, and now one of our deacons, no less!


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## JBaldwin

A lot times hymns such as "And Can it Be" have been changed in the Trinity to correct the theology. In this one it is changed to "Emptied Himself, so great His love and bled for Adam's chosen race." 

Concerning the OP, I'm interested that few have touched the hymns we sing all the time (such as And Can it Be) and have gone straight for the obvious ones. A lot of hymnals are full of songs that have Arminian theology. Many of the hymns of the Wesleys are suspect.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?


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## Scottish Lass

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?



Many of those have been adjusted. At the bottom you'll see "Verses 1-3 by ___; Verse 4 by ____."


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## JBaldwin

Scottish Lass said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many of those have been adjusted. At the bottom you'll see "Verses 1-3 by ___; Verse 4 by ____."
Click to expand...


Yes, that's correct, and you will also notice that in other hymns words have been changed without a notation. That is because a word or two or even one phrase can be changed without violationg copyright laws.


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## kevin.carroll

Tim already mentioned my most hated: "The Garden." A close second is "Church in the Wildwood." I mean come, come, come, come on!


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## baron

PCFLANAGAN said:


> Wesley's "And Can it Be that I should Gain"
> 
> Leaving aside the fact that the title reminds me of a bad diet:
> 
> "In vain the firstborn seraph tries
> To sound the depths of love divine."
> 
> Firstborn seraph???



I enjoy this verse of that hymn:

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.


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## Skyler

This one:



'How Could You Say No' by Julie Miller said:


> Thorns on his head spear in his side
> Yet it was a heartache that made him cry
> He gave his life so you would understand
> 
> Is there any way you could say no to this man
> If Christ himself were standing here
> Face full of glory and eyes full of tears
> And he held out his arms and his nail printed hands
> Is there any way you could say no to this man
> How could you look in his tear stained eyes
> Knowing it's you he's thinking of
> Could you tell him you're not ready to give him your life
> Could you say you don't think you need his love
> Jesus is here with his arms open wide
> 
> You can see him with your heart if you'll stop looking with your eyes
> *He's left it up to you, he's done all that he can*
> Is there any way you could say no to this man
> How could you look in his tear stained eyes
> Knowing it's you he's thinking of
> Could you tell him you're not ready to give him your life
> Could you say you don't think you need his love
> Thorns on his head your life in his hands
> Is there any way you could say no to this man
> Is there any way you could say no to this man


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## DMcFadden

Exagorazo said:


> There's always "emptied himself of all but love..."



Wesley's line is typical of the kenotic movement in England at the time. Pretty lame Christology, however you cut it.


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## FenderPriest

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?



Just as a mild-point of interest - I sit in class right now next to a gentleman who goes to a church in the area where one of the editors for the Trinity Hymnal attends (he's 94!). He's met him. I gave him my Trinity Hymnal to try and get the guy's signature in it. It's kinda like meeting a rock star - a rock star for nerds...


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## jwithnell

_Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus_, and its in the Trinity Hymnal!?! Experiential at best, gnostic at worst.


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## FenderPriest

jwithnell said:


> _Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus_, and its in the Trinity Hymnal!?! Experiential at best, gnostic at worst.



Ah, I disagree. I imagine it depends on how you read the third line of the chorus:



> Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
> Look full in His wonderful face,
> And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
> In the light of His glory and grace.



It says "the things of earth" not "the earth" (which would be Gnostic). This seems to me to have grounding in 1 John 2:15-17


> Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.



Further, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" just seems like a poetic way of restating what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:6 - "For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." How else do we "see" that light but by turning our eyes upon Jesus Christ with the eyes of the heart?

Thus, I don't really think the song is "gnostic at worst". Certainly there's an experiential element to it, but that is never declared as bad in the Bible.


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## carlgobelman

*P&W Song "Love the Lord"*

This particular praise & worship by Lincoln Brewster was sung in my non-denom church a few months ago. It bothered me so much, that I had to express my concerns to our elders. This song is pure law! Here are the lyrics:



> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength (2x)
> 
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> 
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (2x)
> 
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> 
> I will love You (I will love You)
> I will praise You (I will praise You)
> I will serve You, Lord (I will serve You)
> I will trust You, Lord (I will trust You)
> 
> And with all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> With all my strength
> 
> I will love You Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (3x)



There is an awful lot of "I will" in this song!


----------



## jwithnell

Ah, you could be right.


----------



## Augusta

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?



The following is from the red Trinity Hymnal #479. It portrays Christ as a hand-wringing God begging us to come.  


Original Trinity Hymnal (blue), #694

Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling for you and for me;
See, on the portals he's waiting and watching,
Watching for you and for me.

Come home, come home,
Ye who are weary, come home;
Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling, O sinner, come home.

Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading,
Pleading for you and for me?
Why should we linger and heed not his mercies,
Mercies for you and for me?

Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing,
Passing from you and from me;
Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming,
Coming for you and for me.

Oh! for the wonderful love he has promised
Promised for you and for me;
Though we have sinned, he has mercy and pardon,
Pardon for you and for me.


----------



## Bern

I knew someone at the last church I was a member of who objected to the "Above all powers" song by Paul Baloche, because of the last two lines " thought of me above all".

Its easy to criticise songs that describe salvation from mans perspective, because they do not specifically make God's glory the focal point. However, we must remember that Christ did what he did for our benefit as well as the glory of God. I think that is what the song is trying to say... Christ didn't put his own needs first, he showed love to us by laying down His life for our sakes.


----------



## P.F.

The following provides a list of the lyrics of the hymns in the "original" Trinity Hymnal. 

Original Trinity Hymnal Lyrics

Most are not exceptionally questionable although you will notice an overall imbalance toward what could be called "lovey-dovey" songs and away from "fire and brimstone" songs.


----------



## he beholds

austinww said:


> What do you guys think of this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crucified
> Laid behind a stone
> You lived to die
> Rejected and alone
> Like a rose
> Trampled on the ground
> You took the fall
> And *thought of me
> Above all*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's sad because the melody of this song is really good.
Click to expand...


That doesn't bother me. I'm not sure that the meaning is incorrect. Christ did think of us above all, on earth. I know his own glory was a principal factor, but I don't think this contradicts that. 



Hamalas said:


> On of my favorite hymns was always "It is Well with my Soul" But something I just recently learned is that the author, Horatio Spafford, had some serious theological issues! I assume that most of you are familiar with the basic story of his life (i.e. business burns down in Chicago, children die at sea, wife dies in a train wreck, etc...) but after all that he moved to Israel with his daughter and set up some kind of end-times cult. Now I have never noticed anything theologically suspect within that song, but how should the authors weird theology affect our use of an otherwise good song?



I think truth can come from anywhere (though it ultimately comes from God!!). If I read truth or beauty or wisdom that is truly truth, beauty, or wisdom, I don't really mind the source.


----------



## Southern Twang

FenderPriest said:


> "I'll Fly Away" has always rubbed me the wrong way for what seems to me an undiluted gnostic view of the physical world being the bad stuff, not sin.



Fenderpriest beat me to it! When I attended a independent fundamentalist dispensational baptist church back in college, we would sing this song quite often.

"When I die hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away!"


----------



## au5t1n

Bern, that is what I said the first time I heard someone criticize the song, but I posted it here to see if others might have the same objection as he did.



Bern said:


> I knew someone at the last church I was a member of who objected to the "Above all powers" song by Paul Baloche, because of the last two lines " thought of me above all".
> 
> Its easy to criticise songs that describe salvation from mans perspective, because they do not specifically make God's glory the focal point. However, we must remember that Christ did what he did for our benefit as well as the glory of God. I think that is what the song is trying to say... Christ didn't put his own needs first, he showed love to us by laying down His life for our sakes.


----------



## JTB

I don't think "Above All Powers" fits in very well with the theology of Scripture. If Christ had indeed "thought of me, above all," wouldn't the Scriptures indicate as much? I can see some plausibility to the notion that Christ thought of His Bride, the Church, above all other earthly creatures, but that hardly equates to the individualistic notion that he thought of "me" above all else. I don't think the average Christian sings the song or comes away thinking, "after God's glory and His own, Christ thought of me, in the context of the whole Church as His Bride, above all."


----------



## Marrow Man

The Phillips, Craig, and Dean song I was thinking of is "Here I Am to Worship." The Missus and I were attending a PCA church once where this was sung in worship (I did not sing it). I mentioned it to the pastor afterward and, to his credit, he was horrified to find out about their modalistic theology.


----------



## carlgobelman

Marrow Man said:


> The Phillips, Craig, and Dean song I was thinking of is "Here I Am to Worship." The Missus and I were attending a PCA church once where this was sung in worship (I did not sing it). I mentioned it to the pastor afterward and, to his credit, he was horrified to find out about their modalistic theology.



Actually, I think Matt Redman wrote that song and PCD just covered it. They don't write a lot of their own material.

Just out of curiosity, is your objection to the song or to PCD's modalistic beliefs?


----------



## LawrenceU

My favourite questionable hymn. Gotta love the passion for heaven, but . . .

[video=youtube;dYqM9-Fj0Pg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYqM9-Fj0Pg[/video]


----------



## FenderPriest

carlgobelman said:


> Actually, I think Matt Redman wrote that song...



Ahem - Matt Hughes saith wiki. He's written other very good songs though!


----------



## Rich Koster

DMcFadden said:


> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. "God is She and He Together"
> 31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
> 34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
> 35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
> 36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
> 38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
> 45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
> 47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
> 48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
> 49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
> 51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"



Are they from the Judson Jukebox?


----------



## carlgobelman

FenderPriest said:


> carlgobelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think Matt Redman wrote that song...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem - Matt Hughes saith wiki. He's written other very good songs though!
Click to expand...


 Actually, we're BOTH wrong...it's Tim Hughes. I couldn't remember whether it was Redman, Chris Tomlin or Tim Hughes. They're all somewhat similar.


----------



## FenderPriest

carlgobelman said:


> FenderPriest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carlgobelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think Matt Redman wrote that song...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem - Matt Hughes saith wiki. He's written other very good songs though!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, we're BOTH wrong...it's Tim Hughes. I couldn't remember whether it was Redman, Chris Tomlin or Tim Hughes. They're all somewhat similar.
Click to expand...


I was thinking Tim, honestly!


----------



## Rich Koster

Get your barfies ready......
[video=youtube;zPX5FU0ILGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPX5FU0ILGs[/video]


----------



## Christusregnat

Joshua said:


> I *think* this one *might* be questionable, but I don't want to be too dogmatic, lest I offend or make anyone feel uncomfortable.



"I own the cattle on a thousand hiiiiiils,
But no way I could bend any of their wiiiiills"


----------



## LawrenceU

Rich Koster said:


> Get your barfies ready......
> YouTube - Andy Park - The River Is Here



I don't have to watch it. I could sing the song by heart I've heard it so many times. I'll never forget one conference I attended when the worship leader said, (With the opening barres of the song slowly building behind him) 'I hope that you all brought your spiritual kayaks because the river will be flowing strong tonight!'


----------



## MarieP

PCFLANAGAN said:


> Wesley's "And Can it Be that I should Gain"
> 
> Leaving aside the fact that the title reminds me of a bad diet:
> 
> "In vain the firstborn seraph tries
> To sound the depths of love divine."
> 
> Firstborn seraph???



I understand him as saying that not even the chiefest of the seraphs could play the deepest notes of the Gospel.

I see it as an elaboration of 1 Peter 1:12 "To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into."

as well as Hebrews 2:16- "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham."


----------



## CatherineL

My brother in law who is part of a Vineyard church told me once that he wouldn't sing "Crown Him With Many Crowns" because of bad theology. I think his theology is generally pretty suspect, but I was wondering if anyone knows why that would be? I love that hymn. I didn't ask him at the time because generally we just degenerate into argument over these sorts of things.


----------



## DMcFadden

Rich Koster said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some . . .
> 
> 25. "God is She and He Together"
> 31. "Come, Father-Mother, Friend and Guide"
> 34. "O Christ-Sophia, Give Us Power"
> 35. "Stir Us Out of Our Safe Nest, Mother Eagle"
> 36. "Out of the Depths Christ-Sophia Is Calling"
> 38. "Our Mother-Father God Is Near"
> 45. "Come, Sister-Brother Sprit"
> 47. "Father-Mother, Kind and Loving"
> 48. "Womb of All Creation Flowing"
> 49. "Rise Up, O People, Proclaim Christ-Sophia Has Risen"
> 51. "O Christ-Sophia, Rise"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they from the Judson Jukebox?
Click to expand...


No, it was from the "Inclusive Hymns for Liberating Chrisitians." However, in the sacred precincts of the Holy Donut, I have heard some inclusive songs sung that came from the same theological piece of hymnal.


----------



## MarieP

CatherineL said:


> My brother in law who is part of a Vineyard church told me once that he wouldn't sing "Crown Him With Many Crowns" because of bad theology. I think his theology is generally pretty suspect, but I was wondering if anyone knows why that would be? I love that hymn. I didn't ask him at the time because generally we just degenerate into argument over these sorts of things.



Oh wow! I just looked up the words to the hymn and found 4 verses that I hadn't heard before!

Crown him with many crowns,
the Lamb upon his throne.
Hark! How the heavenly anthem drowns
all music but its own.
Awake, my soul, and sing of him
who died for thee,
and hail him as thy matchless King
through all eternity.

Crown him the virgin's Son,
the God incarnate born,
whose arm those crimson trophies won
which now His brow adorn;
fruit of the mystic rose,
as of that rose the stem;
the root whence mercy ever flows,
the Babe of Bethlehem.

Crown him the Son of God,
before the worlds began,
and ye who tread where he hath trod,
crown him the Son of Man;
who every grief hath known
that wrings the human breast,
and takes and bears them for His own,
that all in him may rest.

Crown him the Lord of life,
who triumphed over the grave,
and rose victorious in the strife
for those he came to save.
His glories now we sing,
who died, and rose on high,
who died eternal life to bring,
and lives that death may die.

Crown him the Lord of peace,
whose power a scepter sways
from pole to pole, that wars may cease,
and all be prayer and praise.
his reign shall know no end,
and round his piercèd feet
fair flowers of paradise extend
their fragrance ever sweet.

Crown him the Lord of love,
behold his hands and side,
those wounds, yet visible above,
in beauty glorified.
No angel in the sky
can fully bear that sight,
but downward bends his burning eye
at mysteries so bright.

Crown him the Lord of Heaven,
enthroned in worlds above,
crown him the King to whom is given
the wondrous name of Love.
Crown him with many crowns,
as thrones before him fall;
Crown him, ye kings, with many crowns,
for he is King of all.

Crown him the Lord of lords,
who over all doth reign,
who once on earth, the incarnate Word,
for ransomed sinners slain,
now lives in realms of light,
where saints with angels sing
their songs before him day and night,
their God, Redeemer, King.

Crown him the Lord of years,
the Potentate of time,
Creator of the rolling spheres,
ineffably sublime.
all hail, Redeemer, hail!
For thou has died for me;
thy praise and glory shall not fail
throughout eternity. 

Oremus Hymnal: Crown him with many crowns

Could it be that he's a dispensationalist reacting to Jesus already reigning?

-----Added 10/27/2009 at 05:40:04 EST-----

And I just realized that the "Crown Him the Lord of life" verse is not in the TH!

Great verse! Because I work at the seminary, I get to go to all the chapels, and I've sung the song so much there too that I hadn't missed that verse!


----------



## MMasztal

How about the narcissistic "In the Garden"

"and the joy we share as we tarry there,
none other has ever known."

None other has known? Wait! Correction- has EVER known. Whoa! How about me and all the other believers?


----------



## Dearly Bought

_Disclaimer_: The following article is from an ardent defender of Exclusive Psalmody. The introduction strongly promotes EP over hymnody. I'm _*not*_ posting it to get into into a psalmody vs. hymnody debate.

In the following essay, Rev. Angus Stewart analyzes the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster's Hymnal. A large number of the hymns found in this hymnal are present in others such as the Trinity Hymnal.

See if you find it possible to sing Charles Wesley's hymns after reading the appendix.


----------



## MMasztal

Joshua said:


> I *think* this one *might* be questionable, but I don't want to be too dogmatic, lest I offend or make anyone feel uncomfortable.
> 
> YouTube - Free Will Song



 

I could only handle about 2 1/2 minutes.

Funny this showed up today. In my apologetics class this morning, my students were poking fun at Pensacola CC and Bob Jones U.


----------



## baron

Augusta said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about hymns in the Red Trinity Hymnal y'all would question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following is from the red Trinity Hymnal #479. It portrays Christ as a hand-wringing God begging us to come.
> 
> 
> Original Trinity Hymnal (blue), #694
> 
> Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling,
> Calling for you and for me;
> See, on the portals he's waiting and watching,
> Watching for you and for me.
> 
> Come home, come home,
> Ye who are weary, come home;
> Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling,
> Calling, O sinner, come home.
> 
> Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading,
> Pleading for you and for me?
> Why should we linger and heed not his mercies,
> Mercies for you and for me?
> 
> Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing,
> Passing from you and from me;
> Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming,
> Coming for you and for me.
> 
> Oh! for the wonderful love he has promised
> Promised for you and for me;
> Though we have sinned, he has mercy and pardon,
> Pardon for you and for me.
Click to expand...


I know what you mean we sung that song at the end of service Sunday. While Jesus and the Holy Spirit are knocking at your hearts door. Won't you you please let him in.


----------



## MMasztal

Marrow Man said:


> The Phillips, Craig, and Dean song I was thinking of is "Here I Am to Worship." The Missus and I were attending a PCA church once where this was sung in worship (I did not sing it). I mentioned it to the pastor afterward and, to his credit, he was horrified to find out about their modalistic theology.



I think I got you beat, Tim. When we moved to Atlanta several years ago, we visited a PCA church in the Buckhead section of town. It was one of the Perimeter PCA satellite congregations. They actually sung, during the worship service, "Castle on a Cloud", from the pop-opera Les Miserables! I'm not joking.


----------



## R Harris

JBaldwin said:


> Concerning the OP, I'm interested that few have touched the hymns we sing all the time (such as And Can it Be) and have gone straight for the obvious ones. A lot of hymnals are full of songs that have Arminian theology. Many of the hymns of the Wesleys are suspect.



The popular hymn "Take my Life and let it be" has, in my opinion, clearly arminian theology in stanzas 5 and 6. People may disagree with that, but that is my cursory interpretation of them.

Regarding Watts, there have been threads in the past that have dealt with him. Gilbert M'Master's biography of Watts and historian J.H. Allen's work on Unitarianism in the British Empire both state that Watts died as a Unitarian, having denied the faith. Tony Cowley once told me that he had read all of M'Master's book. He said that it was indeed a damning indictment of Watts.
Needless to say, I do not sing hymns written by Watts.


----------



## Marrow Man

For the two previous posts:


----------



## MarieP

R Harris said:


> The popular hymn "Take my Life and let it be" has, in my opinion, clearly arminian theology in stanzas 5 and 6. People may disagree with that, but that is my cursory interpretation of them.



Take my will and make it Thine,
It shall be no longer mine;
Take my heart, it is Thine own,
It shall be Thy royal throne.

Take my love, my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure store;
Take myself and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee.

Where is the Arminian theology??


----------



## AThornquist

What's the issue with singing songs that pagans wrote? I don't care _why_ someone offered meat to idols, to me it is clean. _My_ worship is pure before the Lord, regardless of what they were thinking. I evaluate lyrics because those are my song to God. The life of whatever guy who put the lyrics together has no bearing on what I do with them.


----------



## au5t1n

I agree as far as concerns binding the conscience of others, but I have to admit I am not comfortable singing words written by heretics if I can avoid it. Perhaps this is just a weak conscience issue on my part, and I know I'm not consistent with it, as I have not investigated the author of every song I love to sing in worship. But nevertheless, if I do happen to know a little too much about it, it makes me very uncomfortable singing it.



AThornquist said:


> What's the issue with singing songs that pagans wrote? I don't care _why_ someone offered meat to idols, to me it is clean. _My_ worship is pure before the Lord, regardless of what they were thinking. I evaluate lyrics because those are my song to God. The life of whatever guy who put the lyrics together has no bearing on what I do with them.


----------



## rbcbob

> First, if the author of the hymn was notoriously unorthodox, that should render the hymn suspect. For example, Julia Ward Howe, who wrote "Battle Hymn of the Republic," was a Unitarian. I am wonder about suspect authors of other famous hymns



Frederick W. *Faber*, who wrote _*Faith of our Fathers*_ was *Roman Catholic*.

Robert *Robinson*, who wrote _*Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing*_ apostatized from the faith.


----------



## Igor

R Harris said:


> Regarding Watts, there have been threads in the past that have dealt with him. Gilbert M'Master's biography of Watts and historian J.H. Allen's work on Unitarianism in the British Empire both state that Watts died as a Unitarian, having denied the faith. Tony Cowley once told me that he had read all of M'Master's book. He said that it was indeed a damning indictment of Watts.
> Needless to say, I do not sing hymns written by Watts.


Wish I had known that before - I would not have ordered and read his "On Improvement of the Mind". Very sad. 

*P.S.* I have checked various sources and can see that it somewhat questionable. For example, here we read:


> Lardner affirmed that in his last years (not more than two years at most, in failing health) Watts passed to the unitarian position, and wrote in defence of it; the papers were, as Lardner owned, unfit for publication, and as such were destroyed by Doddridge and Jennings, the literary trustees. Lardner declared also that the last belief of Watts was 'completely unitarian' (BELSHAM, Memoirs of Theophilus Lindsey, pp. 161-4). The testimony, however, of those who were most intimate with Watts to his last hours is entirely silent as to any such change; and his dependence at death on the atonement (which is incompatible with 'complete unitarianism') is emphatically attested (MILNER, Life, p. 315).



In The life, times, and correspondence of the Rev. Isaac Watts by by Milner, Thomas the issue is dealt with, too, and the author believes that Dr.Lardner is unable to provide sufficient evidence for his claims.


----------



## VaughanRSmith

rbcbob said:


> Robert *Robinson*, who wrote _*Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing*_ apostatized from the faith.


He eventually returned to the faith, though. 

Prone to Wander, Lord I Feel It Provocations & Pantings

A great story.


----------



## MarieP

rbcbob said:


> Robert *Robinson*, who wrote _*Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing*_ apostatized from the faith.




Robinson's life sure does add an extra dimension to that hymn! I haven't read much about him except for the famous quote that, at the end of his life, he looked miserable and a woman asked if he was the man who wrote "Come Thou Fount." He said, with tears in his eyes, that he'd written it long ago and that he'd give anything to "feel the same" as he did when he wrote it. I would have liked to ask what exactly he meant by that. Is there further evidence that this was because of apostasy or do we have reason to think that this misery was not unlike what Samson felt at the end of his life?


----------



## SueS

carlgobelman said:


> This particular praise & worship by Lincoln Brewster was sung in my non-denom church a few months ago. It bothered me so much, that I had to express my concerns to our elders. This song is pure law! Here are the lyrics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength (2x)
> 
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> 
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (2x)
> 
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> 
> I will love You (I will love You)
> I will praise You (I will praise You)
> I will serve You, Lord (I will serve You)
> I will trust You, Lord (I will trust You)
> 
> And with all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> With all my strength
> 
> I will love You Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (3x)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is an awful lot of "I will" in this song!
Click to expand...




Not only is it legalistic and man centred, but it is verging on being a mantra with all the repetition.

My favorite worst song would be "They Rush on the City, They Run on the Wall" which was often sung with great enthusiasm at my former church. It is taken from Joel 5 which describes God's judgment against Jerusalem by means of a hord of locusts! Some gebroni made it into a praise song - I remember standing at the back of the room once when this song was being sung and watching people clapping and waving their hands in joy, never realizing what the actual context was and that if they sang it at all it should have been sung in a minor key. Sheesh!!!


----------



## CatherineL

Some of my favorite spiritual songs are from my Roman Catholic upbringing. God has used them to comfort as well as rebuke me (as any form of memorized scripture often does). I don't care who wrote the song or what their motives were, as long as the song itself is sound. Many of the RC "Glory and Praise" songs (written in the late 60's, early 70's after Vatican II drastically changed all the music) are I think very sound biblically. I sing them often to my children and have been asked to sing a couple "crossovers" at my PCA church for special music.

Here's one taken out of Psalm 139 (a very common lullaby around here):

youtube.com/watch?v=h1AlUUvZBpA

(the video along with the song does have art work that represents Jesus, just a warning, that's why I nerfed the link)

You Are Near 

1. 
Yahweh, I know you are near, 
standing always at my side. 
You guard me from the foe, 
and you lead me in ways everlasting. 

Lord, you have searched my heart, 
and you know when I sit and when I stand. 
Your hand is upon me protecting me from death, 
keeping me from harm. 

2. 
Where can I run from Your love? 
If I climb to the heavens You are there; 
If I fly to the sunrise or sail beyond the sea, 
still I'd find You there. 

3. 
You know my heart and its ways, 
you who formed me before I was born 
in the secret of darkness before I saw the sun 
in my mother's womb. 

4. 
Marvelous to me are Your works; 
how profound are Your thoughts, my Lord. 
Even if I could count them, they number as the stars, 
You would still be there.


----------



## JennyG

CatherineL said:


> Some of my favorite spiritual songs are from my Roman Catholic upbringing. God has used them to comfort as well as rebuke me (as any form of memorized scripture often does). I don't care who wrote the song or what their motives were, as long as the song itself is sound. Many of the RC "Glory and Praise" songs (written in the late 60's, early 70's after Vatican II drastically changed all the music) are I think very sound biblically. I sing them often to my children and have been asked to sing a couple "crossovers" at my PCA church for special music.


I agree. It's easier with words than with music. With music I don't feel too happy if I know the composer was a hater of God -- it's going to be there somewhere, though music being music, I may not be able to discern it.
But with words, you read them and you can soon tell if they're good to sing or not.
This thread is a bit depressing though.
I prefer the ones that concentrate on what *is* pure and lovely and of good report, instead of what isn't.


----------



## au5t1n

SueS said:


> carlgobelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This particular praise & worship by Lincoln Brewster was sung in my non-denom church a few months ago. It bothered me so much, that I had to express my concerns to our elders. This song is pure law! Here are the lyrics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength (2x)
> 
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> Love the Lord your God
> With all your heart
> With all your soul
> With all your mind
> And with all your strength
> 
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (2x)
> 
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> I will serve the Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> 
> I will love You (I will love You)
> I will praise You (I will praise You)
> I will serve You, Lord (I will serve You)
> I will trust You, Lord (I will trust You)
> 
> And with all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> With all my strength
> 
> I will love You Lord
> With all my heart
> With all my soul
> With all my mind
> And with all my strength (3x)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is an awful lot of "I will" in this song!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is it legalistic and man centred, but it is verging on being a mantra with all the repetition.
> 
> My favorite worst song would be "They Rush on the City, They Run on the Wall" which was often sung with great enthusiasm at my former church. It is taken from Joel 5 which describes God's judgment against Jerusalem by means of a hord of locusts! Some gebroni made it into a praise song - I remember standing at the back of the room once when this song was being sung and watching people clapping and waving their hands in joy, never realizing what the actual context was and that if they sang it at all it should have been sung in a minor key. Sheesh!!!
Click to expand...


Hmm...I disagree. I don't have any problem with this song, except for the repetition, but that's aesthetic more than theological. We can't object to every instance of "I will" in a song just because we're Calvinists. There are plenty such instances in the Scriptures. I think what Bern said earlier is relevant here.

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 09:20:53 EST-----

Note that I was referring to that "Love the Lord your God" song, not "They Rush on the City..."


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## Mark Hettler

I love "It Well With My Soul," but there is one line in it that can be misleading if taken out of context:

_My sin - O the bliss of this glorious thought._


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## JennyG

austinww said:


> I don't have any problem with this song, except for the repetition, but that's aesthetic more than theological. We can't object to every instance of "I will" in a song just because we're Calvinists. There are plenty such instances in the Scriptures. I think what Bern said earlier is relevant here.



I tend to agree. I don't know that song, but when I saw it, it made me think of psalm 119, which is full of I wills... "I will praise thee...I will keep thy statutes....I will meditate in thy precepts..." but all perfectly balanced with prayers for teaching and understanding so that that _may_ be the case.
I love that psalm. It seems to encapsulate the tension expressed in "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling,... for it is God who worketh in you..."


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## Mark Hettler

SueS said:


> My favorite worst song would be "They Rush on the City, They Run on the Wall" which was often sung with great enthusiasm at my former church. It is taken from Joel 5 which describes God's judgment against Jerusalem by means of a hord of locusts! Some gebroni made it into a praise song - I remember standing at the back of the room once when this song was being sung and watching people clapping and waving their hands in joy, never realizing what the actual context was and that if they sang it at all it should have been sung in a minor key. Sheesh!!!



Actually it IS sung in a minor key, but point well taken; I remember that song from years ago and had the same issue. I actually pointed it out to the pastor and got the same response that "intellectuals" always get in churches like that.


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## Marrow Man

AThornquist said:


> What's the issue with singing songs that pagans wrote? I don't care _why_ someone offered meat to idols, to me it is clean. _My_ worship is pure before the Lord, regardless of what they were thinking. I evaluate lyrics because those are my song to God. The life of whatever guy who put the lyrics together has no bearing on what I do with them.



I guess it's more along the line of _who _exactly they are singing to/writing about in the hymn. If the writer is Unitarian, then the Jesus of whom they write is not the Christ of Scripture.

But another dimension is this: doctrines are rarely (if ever) held in isolation. If one's view of the Trinity or Christ is deficient, this will almost certainly work its way out practically in their theology. This might transfer itself to the hymn writing (though not necessarily). For instance, consider the words of this "hymn" (which may be found in some Protestant hymnals):



> 'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free,
> 
> 'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
> 
> And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
> 
> 'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
> 
> When true simplicity is gain'd,
> 
> To bow and to bend we shan't be asham'd,
> 
> To turn, turn will be our delight,
> 
> Till by turning, turning we come round right.




This song was actually written (and sung) by the Shaker cult. The last couple of lines refer to their worship dances. I believe these were said to be caused by the Holy Spirit (or some other kind of spirits) and was in some way a means of "shaking off desires" or something like that.

BTW, the Shakers have made their mark on the world in more practical ways. The Shakers made great furniture, and they are responsible for such inventions as the circular saw and the clothespin. Nothing wrong with using those things, but of course that's a far cry from using their hymns in worship.


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## rbcbob

Exagorazo said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert *Robinson*, who wrote _*Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing*_ apostatized from the faith.
> 
> 
> 
> He eventually returned to the faith, though.
> 
> Prone to Wander, Lord I Feel It Provocations & Pantings
> 
> A great story.
Click to expand...


Is there any *documentation* to this? The story seems apocryphal. Every source that I have consulted says that he died as an apostate. 



> The good news is Robinson’s life did not end “in the far country.” In that encounter with the lady in the stagecoach, God used the very gospel words he once wrote as they were spoken from the mouth of this anonymous woman to draw him to repentance back to a restored fellowship with whom there is “streams of mercy never ceasing.”



*Other than the web link that you provided which gives the above quote is there any documented source to support it?*


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## SueS

[/QUOTE]

We can't object to every instance of "I will" in a song just because we're Calvinists. There are plenty such instances in the Scriptures. I think what Bern said earlier is relevant here.

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 09:20:53 EST-----




I agree with you there, however, we should praise, worship, sing, serve, etc, IN RESPONSE to what God has done for us. "I wills" used outside of that context are man centred, focusing on what "I" will do. My favorite example of this is the very popular praise song that goes "I will sing unto the Lord all of my days, I will give praise to my God while I have life in me...." That song is taken from vss 33 & 34 of Psalm 104. The body of the Psalm is a praise of what God has done in the creation and keeping of this world. Vss 33 & 34 could well be linked with the word "therefore". Without its proper context the song becomes simply a statement of what "I" will do. Get my point?

About repetition being a matter of asthetics, have you ever stood in a non-denominational worship service and sung p&w songs over and over and over again? I have. I used to count repetitions....."1,2,3...7,8,9...." Believe me, this is not a matter of mere asthetics, there is no way such repetition can be called worship when the words all flow together and lose any meaning they might have originally had. I stand by my calling such ditties "mantras".

Cheers!

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 10:32:21 EST-----



Mark Hettler said:


> I remember that song from years ago and had the same issue. I actually pointed it out to the pastor and got the same response that "intellectuals" always get in churches like that.






Ha!! My dd brought that point up to our former pastor (now her fil) and was basically brushed off. Interesting, wouldn't you say?


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## VaughanRSmith

rbcbob said:


> Exagorazo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert *Robinson*, who wrote _*Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing*_ apostatized from the faith.
> 
> 
> 
> He eventually returned to the faith, though.
> 
> Prone to Wander, Lord I Feel It Provocations & Pantings
> 
> A great story.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there any *documentation* to this? The story seems apocryphal. Every source that I have consulted says that he died as an apostate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The good news is Robinson’s life did not end “in the far country.” In that encounter with the lady in the stagecoach, God used the very gospel words he once wrote as they were spoken from the mouth of this anonymous woman to draw him to repentance back to a restored fellowship with whom there is “streams of mercy never ceasing.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Other than the web link that you provided which gives the above quote is there any documented source to support it?*
Click to expand...

Check out the comment box for some sources. What have you read regarding him? Sounds interesting... 

EDIT: Sounds like we might only find out if and when we meet him


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## au5t1n

SueS said:


> I agree with you there, however, we should praise, worship, sing, serve, etc, IN RESPONSE to what God has done for us. "I wills" used outside of that context are man centred, focusing on what "I" will do. My favorite example of this is the very popular praise song that goes "I will sing unto the Lord all of my days, I will give praise to my God while I have life in me...." That song is taken from vss 33 & 34 of Psalm 104. The body of the Psalm is a praise of what God has done in the creation and keeping of this world. Vss 33 & 34 could well be linked with the word "therefore". Without its proper context the song becomes simply a statement of what "I" will do. Get my point?
> 
> About repetition being a matter of asthetics, have you ever stood in a non-denominational worship service and sung p&w songs over and over and over again? I have. I used to count repetitions....."1,2,3...7,8,9...." Believe me, this is not a matter of mere asthetics, there is no way such repetition can be called worship when the words all flow together and lose any meaning they might have originally had. I stand by my calling such ditties "mantras".
> 
> Cheers!



I realized after I wrote that that I wasn't very clear. I understand that our theology should lead to singing deeper songs and not repetitious songs. My point was that I don't object to the theological content of the song, although I do object to the theological implications of having poor aesthetics.  That's a weird way of putting it, I know.

Now as to the "I will"s, there are plenty of times in Scripture when someone says, "I will do such-and-such for the Lord" without it saying anything about God predestining that act. I don't believe a song that says, "I will serve the Lord," for example, is theologically inaccurate for that reason alone.


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## P.F.

MarieP said:


> PCFLANAGAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wesley's "And Can it Be that I should Gain"
> 
> Leaving aside the fact that the title reminds me of a bad diet:
> 
> "In vain the firstborn seraph tries
> To sound the depths of love divine."
> 
> Firstborn seraph???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand him as saying that not even the chiefest of the seraphs could play the deepest notes of the Gospel.
> 
> I see it as an elaboration of 1 Peter 1:12 "To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into."
> 
> as well as Hebrews 2:16- "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham."
Click to expand...

Perhaps I was not clear about my objection which was about the adjective "firstborn" with the noun seraph.

a) Seraphim aren't sexually generated (they neither marry nor are given in marriage); 

b) Is "firstborn" supposed to be a reference to a particular angel? If so, the most obvious candidate would be the "son of the morning," who is one of the fallen angels; and

c) Finally, "the firstborn" is a title of Jesus (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15 & 18; Hebrews 12:23, which should make us wary of using it as simply a title of exaltation for mere creatures.


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## baron

Not sure if anyone listed this one. I Surrender All. Good song for revivals and altar calls. 

Maybe it's just me but for years and years I have tried to surrender all to Jesus. Still trying feel more like a dog chasing it's tail. Can anyone really sing All to Jesus I surrender? 


All to Jesus, I surrender;
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain

I surrender all, I surrender all,
All to Thee, my blessèd Savior,
I surrender all.

All to Jesus I surrender;
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel the Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power;
Let Thy blessing fall on me.

Refrain

All to Jesus I surrender;
Now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to His Name


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## rbcbob

Exagorazo said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exagorazo said:
> 
> 
> 
> He eventually returned to the faith, though.
> 
> Prone to Wander, Lord I Feel It Provocations & Pantings
> 
> A great story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any *documentation* to this? The story seems apocryphal. Every source that I have consulted says that he died as an apostate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The good news is Robinson’s life did not end “in the far country.” In that encounter with the lady in the stagecoach, God used the very gospel words he once wrote as they were spoken from the mouth of this anonymous woman to draw him to repentance back to a restored fellowship with whom there is “streams of mercy never ceasing.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Other than the web link that you provided which gives the above quote is there any documented source to support it?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Check out the comment box for some sources. What have you read regarding him? Sounds interesting...
> 
> EDIT: Sounds like we might only find out if and when we meet him
Click to expand...


Apart from numerous sermon illustrations found on the internet, most of which give very different versions of his _alleged conversion_ , some of these have him riding in a buggy on the road with an old woman, others he is walking on a dirt road, others on a snowy road, either a girl or a woman brings up the song and his responses vary considerably.

I have found not a single source that provides first-hand sources of documentation.

I did come across this at the Andrew Fuller Center:

“*[Robinson] hath his own opinions of the nature of God, and Christ, and man, and the decrees, and so on: but he doth not think that the opinion of Athanasius, or Arius, or Sabellius, or Socinus, or Augustine, or Pelagius, or Whitby, or Gill, on the subjects in dispute between them, ought to be considered of such importance as to divide Christians, by being made the standards to judge of the truth of any man’s Christianity*"



> May it further these ends and the study of confessional theology among us Baptists, and so avoid the sad latitudinarianism of Robert Robinson in his final days



The Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies 2005 November


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## JennyG

baron said:


> Not sure if anyone listed this one. I Surrender All. Good song for revivals and altar calls.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but for years and years I have tried to surrender all to Jesus. Still trying feel more like a dog chasing it's tail. Can anyone really sing All to Jesus I surrender?



I saw the point very well made once (though I forget by whom) that in more modern hymn writing the trend has been to say ever more boldly, sometimes very gushingly, and always presumptuously really, "I love you Lord! I love you SO MUCH! I love you more than anything!!..."
There's no way that handing such words to a congregation to sing isn't going to be involving at least some of them, some of the time, in complete hypocrisy.
The older writers, with more realism both spiritually and psychologically, would tend rather to say "O for grace to love thee more..."


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## Jeff Burns

"When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is simply example theory of the atonement... That ain't good theology!


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## JennyG

Jeff Burns said:


> "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is simply example theory of the atonement... That ain't good theology!


example theory of the atonement....?
sorry, I don't think I understand


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## Jeff Burns

Example theory of the atonement, or moral example theory, basically says "look at what Jesus did! Wasn't it good? Shouldn't you do good things to?" 

Notice the lyrics of that hymn say nothing about what Jesus actually did on the cross. It just says we ought to come and die, give Him our lives, etc.


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## JennyG

Oh I see now. Thanks!
I've always found that hymn edifying, but then I haven't closely analysed it or anything. I need to think about it. 
Ok I've thought (a bit). I can see what you mean. Still I don't think I would write the hymn off for that reason. I would rather say that it concentrates on one aspect. I mean you're right the whole story definitely isn't there, but I think that's forgiveable.
The gist seems to me to be "look what an amazing thing Jesus did. When I really contemplate it, I realize it should have much more of an impact on me than it does."
That's not a complete account of the Christian faith, but I think it's still a legitimate thing to say...don't you think?

-----Added 10/29/2009 at 09:46:09 EST-----

....and by the way (what I should have started out with) welcome, Jeff!


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## Jack K

baron said:


> Not sure if anyone listed this one. I Surrender All. Good song for revivals and altar calls.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but for years and years I have tried to surrender all to Jesus. Still trying feel more like a dog chasing it's tail. Can anyone really sing All to Jesus I surrender?



I agree with you about the struggle. I feel it too. But I think we can still sing this song. We sing it as an expression of our true heart, which is controlled by God's Spirit. Although the flesh often obsures our true heart, we have faith that this song expresses who we surely are in Christ and who we surely are becoming, in terms of daily obedience, by his Spirit.

Songs like "I Surrender All," "Have Thine Own Way, Lord," or "Take My Life and Let It Be" would be hypocrisy if we claimed they reflected how the past week has gone. But as songs sung with the Spirit who has given us new hearts, they reflect who we really are on a deeper level. Sing 'em out with praise to God for his incredible gift! And let their words rekindle your joy in following him.


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## VaughanRSmith

Jeff Burns said:


> "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is simply example theory of the atonement... That ain't good theology!



I strongly disagree. I doubt that the song is trying to present a complete systematic view of the atonement, rather than a single aspect of it. The example theory of the atonement is entirely Biblical (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 12:1-2), and should lie within our worship as a Biblical church.


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## Jake

I think it is important to remember that worship songs/hymns typically don't stand alone. Instead, it would be up to whoever is organizing the music to have a mix of songs that accurately portray the Gospel message. Yes, the song When I Survey the Wondrous Cross is not complete at itself, but other songs would also be sang to complete the picture. Likewise, a song more emphasizing law would also need a song more emphasizing grace to be sang with it.


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