# Calvinism: Milk or Meat?



## dane_g87 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lately I've had a huge burden laid upon my heart. I'm not necessarily concerned about exposing Calvin and promoting Calvinism, but exalting God's glorious sovereignty and grace. I have been with a fellowship lately, at the church I'm attending. They are a reformed Baptist church. But the pastor is pretty much the only 5-point Calvinist, aside from me. there's alot of Arminianism floating around among the others. Either that, or just some indifferent neutral people. Well, I had been initiating discussions on theology, God's sovereignty, and election. I explained some of the points of Calvinism, arguing from the Scriptures. And alot of people began to get frustrated, denying clear Scripture, and arguing. Being totally unreasonable. Today the pastor was saying that Calvinism was meat and it couldn't be "shoved down the throats of babes." Now I don't know what to think. I was simply discussing the Scriptures. Paul wrote to the Ephesians and clearly preached election (Ephesians 1:4) and the depravity of mankind to the Romans (Romans 3). John preached perseverance of the saints to his church (1 John 2:19). etc. But are the doctrines of grace truly "meat"? I found Spurgeon's quote on the subject, and found it to be very interesting. Spurgeon said the doctrines of grace were the essence of the gospel:



> "I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross."
> ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon



Now according to this, I see it as Spurgeon saying, in other words, that Calvinism is not meat but milk, the very foundation of other doctrines. Am I mistaken here in this conclusion?


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## Zenas (Jul 11, 2010)

I tend to agree with your pastor.


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## Herald (Jul 11, 2010)

Dane,

Speaking as someone who's church left Arminianism for the doctrines of grace less than ten years ago, Calvinism is meat. It is hard for many people to accept. Most will reject it. It is true, but it is also a hard doctrine. I'm interested in how your church an be a true Reformed Baptist Church and have only the pastor and yourself as the only Calvinists. Does your church officially subscribe to the 1689 LBC? I just can't my head around a Reformed Baptist Church that has problems with the doctrines of grace.


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## jwithnell (Jul 11, 2010)

Your pastor ultimately has the responsibility for whether or not the congregation has been pushed on to maturity and to solid feeding. While you might politely discuss with him why a church full of people all need milk, I think you are in a weak position (see 5th commandment) to push the issue with people in the congregation. That said, you are responsible for your family and you might consider finding a congregation that more consistently encourages the laity to learn and grow.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 11, 2010)

I am not like others. I was born again by reading the scriptures. I read the four Gospels and am sure I was regenerate by the time Christ revealed Himself to me in John 8:58. When I got to John 15:16 I had no problem with that. But... most people I know started out not even thinking about the issue. They were finding reconciliation to God. Christ is going after the lost sheep. Then they discover they were lost when they didn't know it because He found them. Sounds like milk and meat.


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## Herald (Jul 11, 2010)

I agree. Calvinism is not just meat, it's milk also.


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## MMasztal (Jul 11, 2010)

dane_g87 said:


> Lately I've had a huge burden laid upon my heart. I'm not necessarily concerned about exposing Calvin and promoting Calvinism, but exalting God's glorious sovereignty and grace. I have been with a fellowship lately, at the church I'm attending. They are a reformed Baptist church. But the pastor is pretty much the only 5-point Calvinist, aside from me. there's alot of Arminianism floating around among the others. Either that, or just some indifferent neutral people. Well, I had been initiating discussions on theology, God's sovereignty, and election. I explained some of the points of Calvinism, arguing from the Scriptures. And alot of people began to get frustrated, denying clear Scripture, and arguing. Being totally unreasonable. Today the pastor was saying that Calvinism was meat and it couldn't be "shoved down the throats of babes."



Wow! This sound like my church! Unfortunately, even some of our elders fall into the folks thinking, "Well, I had been initiating discussions on theology, God's sovereignty, and election. I explained some of the points of Calvinism, arguing from the Scriptures. And a lot of people began to get frustrated, denying clear Scripture, and arguing."

Mike Horton said the Arminianism is man's default setting. I tend to agree. When I became a Christian I knew only what I had learned as a Roman Catholic and unknowingly had the default Arminian mindset. Providentially, my first church was an OPC with a great, cut-no-slack minister. Since my Arminian beliefs weren't deeply seated, I soon embraced Reformed/Calvinist Christianity and have remained entrenched there. While I am not overly pedantic about certain Reformed doctrines like baptism and eschatology, I make no allowance for any doctrine that detracts from God's absolute sovereignty and have even had some somewhat heated discussions with fellow elders who don't subscribe to Reformed doctrine or the WCoF which correctly spell out Biblical teaching.

One thing I did was talk with my pastor about the status of the members and the somewhat divergent beliefs. While our church used to be a "community church" with generic Christianity as its doctrine, it joined the ARP 12 years ago. There has been enough time to usher in Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine into the preaching and thankfully, of late the preaching has been more substantive and Reformed. 

Calvinism can be tough to accept, but if taught surreptitiously, is both reasonable and Biblical. I'd talk with your pastor about gradually introducing Calvinist doctrine into his teaching without specifically calling it so. The congregation cannot remain milk-feeders.


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## UntoCaesar (Jul 11, 2010)

God ordained a people for Himself and Christ perfectly accomplished their, and only their, salvation, justification, sanctification, etc. through His life, death, and resurrection -- Calvinist meat.

Christ came to save His people from their sins -- Calvinist milk.

But who says we can't have milk and meat in the same supper? It's all in how you approach it. Maybe one simple question leads to another, leads to another, another, another... before you know it the milk cartons are empty and you're chewing on a juicy steak.


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## SemperEruditio (Jul 12, 2010)

I agree with others and say that Calvinism is both, milk and meat. I'd say it's like a meat smoothie and depending on the pastor and where the congregation is at the moment depends on how thick the smoothie is. Our Sunday School classes are after the service and they are always about the sermon. The doctrines that were present in the scriptures are further elaborated on, with the Sovereignty of God always there.

Having been lied to, or I guess I should say that my former pastor made factual misstatements, I too question how you are in a Reformed congregation of two. Talk in earnest with your pastor. I have no reason to doubt him but find it odd that you are in a Reformed church of two. It sounds like you are in an Arminian congregation with a Calvinist pastor.


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## TxSpurgeon (Jul 12, 2010)

The doctrines of grace should be milk to the new Christian, to set a foundation. Now if it is presented to a long time Arminian, who has pre concieved ideas, it could be meat, because it seems like they have trouble wrapping their minds around it. God is much too large in all His attributes to depend on little old us, to deliver his promised gift to his Son. For me, the doctrines of grace (doc) , make everything flow together. It fills the holes that were there under the Arminian viewpoint. The DOC provides a much larger view of God. I guess many just cant stomach that. I wouldnt want it any other way. Seems like many are just so bent on sharing in the Glory for their salvation. Alot of it to, is that many Americans, who are so used to freedom and liberty, cannot concieve of the idea that they cannot control their own destiny. Personally, the knowledge that God is holding MY hand is alot more comforting than me relying upon myself to hold His. I guess to me the DOC are like a meat milkshake. LOL!


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## torstar (Jul 12, 2010)

Herald said:


> I agree. Calvinism is not just meat, it's milk also.


 

TULIP is just the onramp to the superhighway of spiritual meat.

So much more to enjoy when you get into the flow of the traffic at top speed.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Jared (Jul 12, 2010)

I once had a discussion with a guy that was an ardent Arminian. I told him that reformed theology was meat. He told me that it was balogna.

This is coming from a guy who with everything that he believed he would say "The Holy Ghost told me". Last I heard, he was about to lose his mind. He thought that the FBI was looking for him.


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## Richard King (Jul 12, 2010)

For me it was and still is meat 
BUT I woke up late after consuming lots of watered down milk and meat-like byproducts


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## torstar (Jul 12, 2010)

Jared104 said:


> I once had a discussion with a guy that was an ardent Arminian. I told him that reformed theology was meat. He told me that it was balogna.
> 
> This is coming from a guy who with everything that he believed he would say "The Holy Ghost told me". Last I heard, he was about to lose his mind. He thought that the FBI was looking for him.


 

Can I handpick the next person to go crackers that deeply insulted my Calvin?


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 12, 2010)

My thought is that even babes in Christ need to be confronted with his sovereignty in salvation, but carefully, gently, patiently, and in such a way that lets them see for themselves--come to their own conclusion that this is what God is teaching them in the Scriptures. You've got to introduce the pertinent passages and then let it perculate in their brains. Ask them to consider for themselves what the words actually mean, realizing that it is the word of God himself.


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## Grimmson (Jul 12, 2010)

I would say that the fine points of Calvinism is meat. Without going into to much detail, the reality of God sovereignty saving the people for himself is milk. Everyone, to my knowledge, would be in agreement to that. The issue at hand is how God is sovereign and how are we dead in our sins. All are in agreement over the Holy Spirit needing to quicken you for new life, which is milk. Most would be in agreement, if you ask them, that salvation is totally of God. I think the problem lies with a lack of maturity with understanding the means in which God accomplishes his work, and a lack of realization of sinful a person is by nature in Adam. To truly understand how great the gospel and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is one must see how much in Adam, and we under Adam, have really fallen; therefore directly needing to teach on original sin, which total depravity flows from. The problem is that many churches do not necessarily and consciously focus on teaching the supporting structures that would support the system of Calvinism. There are steps and a realized unity in the system that must be given, and I would call this a post-milk baby food stage of diet, like Gerber’s smashed up pears for a baby. Only after have they absorbed the basics of Christian doctrine, like original sin, God’s power to save to the uttermost (body and soul), God being sovereign in all things (which is why we pray and teach people to pray), the need of personal repentance and responsibility, that salvation comes once for all in death of Jesus Christ for sins and his resurrection for our behalf to all those that belief, and Jesus will return bodily again to judge the quick and the dead. After these basics are down and accepted then it will be much easier for people to embrace, even though difficultly will arise due to tradition and the nature of fleshly individual thinking mind, in doctrines of grace.


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## Theogenes (Jul 12, 2010)

Calvinism is milk, meat AND DESSERT!


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## TomVols (Jul 13, 2010)

Calvinism is meat, best initially served blended rather well and/or in small, bite-sized portions. Build them up to where they can eat the ole '96er (from the movie _Great Outdoors_


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## Daryl Bales (Aug 6, 2010)

Amen!!!! Brother Tom


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## dudley (Aug 6, 2010)

dane_g87 said:


> Lately I've had a huge burden laid upon my heart. I'm not necessarily concerned about exposing Calvin and promoting Calvinism, but exalting God's glorious sovereignty and grace. I have been with a fellowship lately, at the church I'm attending. They are a reformed Baptist church. But the pastor is pretty much the only 5-point Calvinist, aside from me. there's alot of Arminianism floating around among the others. Either that, or just some indifferent neutral people. Well, I had been initiating discussions on theology, God's sovereignty, and election. I explained some of the points of Calvinism, arguing from the Scriptures. And alot of people began to get frustrated, denying clear Scripture, and arguing. Being totally unreasonable. Today the pastor was saying that Calvinism was meat and it couldn't be "shoved down the throats of babes." Now I don't know what to think. I was simply discussing the Scriptures. Paul wrote to the Ephesians and clearly preached election (Ephesians 1:4) and the depravity of mankind to the Romans (Romans 3). John preached perseverance of the saints to his church (1 John 2:19). etc. But are the doctrines of grace truly "meat"? I found Spurgeon's quote on the subject, and found it to be very interesting. Spurgeon said the doctrines of grace were the essence of the gospel:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Amen my PB brother! CH Spurgeon also said “I believe that God will save his own elect, and I also believe that, if I do not preach the gospel, the blood of men will be laid at my door.” 2303.171 
Spurgeon further went on to say “Our Saviour has bidden us to preach the gospel to every creature; he has not said, “Preach it only to the elect;” and though that might seem to be the most logical thing for us to do, yet, since he has not been pleased to stamp the elect in their foreheads, or to put any distinctive mark upon them, it would be an impossible task for us to perform; whereas, when we preach the gospel to every creature, the gospel makes its own division, and Christ’s sheep hear his voice, and follow him“. 2937.262 

Many Arminianists claim that Spurgeon was an Arminian. He was a Baptist but I think the above quote tends to make me think that Spurgeon was really a firm Calvinist.

I think Calvinism is the milk and also the meat. Calvinism is the Gospel proclaimed!


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## au5t1n (Aug 6, 2010)

Grimmson said:


> I would say that the fine points of Calvinism is meat. Without going into to much detail, the reality of God sovereignty saving the people for himself is milk.


 
There we go. I believe this is the answer to the OP.


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## dudley (Aug 7, 2010)

Theogenes said:


> Calvinism is milk, meat AND DESSERT!



Amen my PB brother JIM, I said Milk and Meat, I like your statement Milk, Meat AND DESSERT!
I see that you are also a firm Calvinist like me!


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