# drunkenness



## Solo Christo (Aug 9, 2005)

The scriptures clearly teach that drunkenness is sin (Gal 5:21) and that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (1Cor 6:10).

My question is what is the biblical standard for drunkenness or being a drunkard? Is this a relative matter of conscience? Is it based on the testimony of others? Or is it based on the manner in which one behaves?

....For instance, two men consume the same amount of wine, ale, or strong drink. One acts a fool, perhaps publically. The other remains reserved and polite. Are both equally in sin?


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## cupotea (Aug 9, 2005)

I hear you, Mike. Back in the day (well, only for a period of a few months) I used to think that moderate drinking was okay.. that is, it isn't drunkenness if I only get drunk once in a while. Blechhh. 

That just goes to show you how variously "drunkenness" can be interpreted.

[Edited on 8-9-2005 by Cottonball]


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Aug 9, 2005)

I was of the understanding that even a little bit of alcohol _affects_ you in some way whether noticeable on the outside or not. Obviously then this can not be a definition of drunkenness "“ as long as my original assertion is correct anyway (I do not believe anyone has said this yet so I am not answering anyone in particular).

If being drunk is when you are mastered by the alcohol then when are you mastered and when is there just "˜big problems with your reasoning´?


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## Jie-Huli (Aug 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Having "big problems with your reasoning" is indicative of not being in control of themself/controlled by the Spirit;thus, being mastered by something/someone other than Christ.



But it is an interesting question at what point the effect of the alcohol is such that it is "mastering" you. It is my understanding (similar to what Abd_Yesua_alMasih said above) that even a little alcohol affects you before you even begin to consciously notice a difference . . . i.e., your reaction time is slower, etc. The effects are gradual. Where is the exact point that we would say the person is being "controlled" by the alcohol? Is it only at the most extreme point where the person is visibly out of control? Or is there a time before this, even when the person seems conscious of what he is doing, when the alcohol has affected his senses such that he at least acts or thinks differently than he would have without the alcohol, that we can say he has bordered into sinful drunkenness?


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## satz (Aug 9, 2005)

Psalm 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; 

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. 

I always understood the above to mean that the chemical effect of alcohol on man's body is part of thegoodness of God's gift of wine, when used in the correct way.

As for where to draw the line, i think as with many things it is a matter of discernment. Where do we draw the line between a good meal that fills you up and gluttony? Between legitmate efforts to do your best at work and worldly ambition? Between women dressing nicely and dressing inmodestly? What is forsaking the assembly? Missing church once a year because of a family emergency? Or one months straight absence because your favourite team is playing live on that day?

I think christians can generally discern the difference between use and abuse. Some will need to be more careful then others. 

Regarding the question, i always thought that i was possible to be legally drunk in the sense that you would be arrested for driving, but not morally drunk in the sense of sinning.

thoughts appreciated though.


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## alwaysreforming (Aug 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Solo Christo_
> The scriptures clearly teach that drunkenness is sin (Gal 5:21) and that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (1Cor 6:10).
> 
> My question is what is the biblical standard for drunkenness or being a drunkard? Is this a relative matter of conscience? Is it based on the testimony of others? Or is it based on the manner in which one behaves?




I can't "back this up" with anything, but my reasoning on this issue is "drunkenness" is not necessarily about the % of alcohol in one's system, but about the characterization of one's life. 

For example, right before "drunkenness" is listed, "the greedy" is mentioned. What makes someone greedy? Is it how much he desires one thing? Or is it someone that desires too many things? Or is it the sum total of his inordinate desire spread out over a given number of objects? ....etc....

How about the "slanderer" given as the next one? What does he have to say about someone to be considered a "slanderer"? How often does he have to do it?

"Swindlers" is next. What is a swindler? I think its someone who tries to selfishly gain at another's expense, through lies and deception and reckless disreguard for the well-being of his victim.

In this light, it would seem that a "drunkard" would be someone whose 'god' was alcohol. Who is known for being a drunk, and who makes a mockery out of his family's good name by his behavior. Or perhaps it is someone who stays at home on the couch every night and neglects his duties to his family and society because he would rather be consumed with alcohol and the pleasures thereof than tend to his family and his duties.

I think when we start breaking it down to percentages, we're missing it the same as we would if we started talking about the voice volume and number of people in the audience of a "slanderer."

It would be hard to define it in black and white with a definite line, but if you're a drunkard one thing is for sure: either YOU know it, or everyone around you knows it. I say that because someone with a very sensitive conscience might have been wondering if they were the "drunkard" because they weren't sure whether at a certain party their alcohol level was beyond what is "allowable."

My


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Psalm 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
> 
> 15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
> ...





The sin of drunkeness is the abuse of something good given by God which then masters the drinker. Motive and conduct mark the sin of drunkeness. Inordinate desire for alcoholic beverages and unlawful, reckless behavior while under the influence show that alcohol has mastered the person rather than the person using God's gift lawfully. 

External reckless conduct brought about by the use of alcohol is a sign that one has had too much to drink. But a person can also abuse alcohol without anyone else being around to observe and notice, if the motivation is inordinate, even if the external conduct is under control. 

That is why in part this is a matter of Christian liberty. I recommend reading The Separated Life by J.G. Vos.


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## Arch2k (Aug 9, 2005)

Some verses to keep in mind:

Ecc 2:3
*I searched in my heart how to gratify my flesh with wine, while guiding my heart with wisdom*, and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the sons of men to do under heaven all the days of their lives.

Ecc 9:7
Go, eat your bread with joy, 
And drink your wine with a merry heart;

Pro 31:6-7
Give strong drink to him who is perishing, 
And wine to those who are bitter of heart. 
7 Let him drink and forget his poverty, 
And remember his misery no more.


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## alwaysreforming (Aug 9, 2005)

Mark and Andrew, those were very insightful posts. I've printed out that article you recommended, Andrew. I'll study it over; it looks real good.


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