# Revelation NIVAC (Keener)



## RamistThomist (Apr 9, 2018)

Keener, Craig. _Revelation_. NIVAC. Zondervan, 2000.

I didn’t expect much out of a commentary series that had the letters “NIV” in it, but this was well-done. Keener demonstrated mastery of the current literature and made interesting, if sometimes stretched, applications.

Rev. 4-5 Throne Room

24 elders: Keener says they represent all believers (172). That reading is possible, but it is more likely the divine council.Further, the picture we have of believers in heaven (ch. 6) has them pleading before the altar.

Revelation 6:9-17

Keener raises the problem of the martyrs’ prayer for justice, but doesn’t give a satisfactory answer (221-22). He notes that it appears to conflict with Jesus’s love your enemies. He doesn’t bring up the imprecatory psalms. They aren’t psalm of vengeance, but psalms against God to arise in covenantal judgment. When we pray like this, we aren’t violating Jesus’s commands, but are asking God to be faithful to the covenant.

Revelation 7:1-8

Keener seems to suggest that the events following the 6th seal aren’t chronological. In fact, he breaks with premillennialism at this point: “those who can withstand the day of God’s wrath are those whom God has empowered to withstand the previous plagues” (230). That’s certainly a true proposition but there are easier answers. Pre-wrath, for one.

Revelation 12

The Mother: faithful remnant of Israel (314). The theological source most available would have been the OT, which the readers would have known.

Reasons it can’t be Mary: We don’t have evidence of Mary’s being persecuted by the Dragon.

Revelation 20

Keener gives a mild Defense of Historic Premillennialism, while noting difficulties with it and with all systems.

1. The binding of Satan during the thousand years hardly matches Satan’s deceptive and murderous activity during the present era (12:12-13; 13:11-15).
2. The saints have already been martyred, suggesting that the Tribulation period precedes the Millennium.
3. The resurrection of the righteous is parallel to and contrasted with the rest of the dead returning to life after the thousand years (20:4-6), suggesting a bodily rather than symbolic resurrection.
4. Revelation 20 presupposes all that transpired in chapters 12-19.

Extra notes on Revelation 20.

The angel’s binding of Satan (20:2; 9:14) is a common motif throughout Jewish literature (1 Enoch 10:4-6

Gog and Magog. In Ezekiel Gog is the ruler of Magog, but here they merely symbolize all the evil nations

Other notes: it’s doubtful John had Matt. 12 in mind when he spoke of the binding of Satan. It’s unlikely his earlier readers would have had access to the Synoptics.

Criticisms

Keener utilizes a lot of material from Tony Campolo and Ron Sider. Rev. (so-called) Jeremiah Wright of Chicago (of Obama fame) also makes an appearance (194).


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## Bill The Baptist (Apr 9, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Keener, Craig. _Revelation_. NIVAC. Zondervan, 2000.
> 
> I didn’t expect much out of a commentary series that had the letters “NIV” in it, but this was well-done. Keener demonstrated mastery of the current literature and made interesting, if sometimes stretched, applications.
> 
> ...



Keener is a good scholar and a really nice guy, but he does lean liberal in some areas, which probably explains some of the references.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 9, 2018)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Keener is a good scholar and a really nice guy, but he does lean liberal in some areas, which probably explains some of the references.



I would say he is more SJW than theological liberal, since he affirms the supernatural. In fact, he believes in miracles today. He would fit in with the Gospel Coalition.


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## Bill The Baptist (Apr 9, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I would say he is more SJW than theological liberal, since he affirms the supernatural. In fact, he believes in miracles today. He would fit in with the Gospel Coalition.



I should have been more precise. I meant liberal in an egalitarian/SJW kind of way. I read his defense of female pastors in the four views series and I was not particularly impressed with his argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Timotheos (Apr 9, 2018)

NIVAC="if sometimes stretched, applications."

Sometimes the applications are good. But since so much emphasis is up on the A part of the commentary, you'd think they would do a better job.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dachaser (Apr 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Keener, Craig. _Revelation_. NIVAC. Zondervan, 2000.
> 
> I didn’t expect much out of a commentary series that had the letters “NIV” in it, but this was well-done. Keener demonstrated mastery of the current literature and made interesting, if sometimes stretched, applications.
> 
> ...


How was he using those liberal sources?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> How was he using those liberal sources?



They were in the footnotes, so presumably, yes.


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## Dachaser (Apr 10, 2018)

He must have been using them to reflect the so called social injustice views that left wing Christianity promote all the time.


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## KMK (Apr 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I would say he is more SJW than theological liberal, since he affirms the supernatural. In fact, he believes in miracles today. He would fit in with the Gospel Coalition.



I have seen the term 'SJW' around PB a great deal lately. What does it mean?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Apr 10, 2018)

SJW is Social Justice Warrior
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Social Justice Warrior


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## RamistThomist (Apr 10, 2018)

KMK said:


> I have seen the term 'SJW' around PB a great deal lately. What does it mean?



Social Justice Warrior. Think of the worldview of Ron Sider and Sojourners


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## bookslover (Apr 10, 2018)

Keener is also charismatic, I believe - or at least leans that way.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 11, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Keener is also charismatic, I believe - or at least leans that way.



He is, though that doesn't come out in this commentary.


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Keener is also charismatic, I believe - or at least leans that way.


Would he be like a Dr Grudem, or more reserved, like DA Carson?


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He is, though that doesn't come out in this commentary.


Is he Pentecostal or Charismatic in his theological outlook?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 11, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Is he Pentecostal or Charismatic in his theological outlook?



Trinitarian Baptist with continuation of gifts.


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Trinitarian Baptist with continuation of gifts.


All of them, including the various sign gifts, and speaking in tongues?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 11, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> All of them, including the various sign gifts, and speaking in tongues?



Yes. He's made this clear over decades in published works.


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Yes. He's made this clear over decades in published works.


Hopefully, he did not let those problematic areas of His theology bleed over into his biblical works.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 11, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Hopefully, he did not let those problematic areas of His theology bleed over into his biblical works.



They aren't problematic areas, but even if they were, he is a responsible exegete and his first job is to exegete the text. It's a decent commentary. And even if he is wrong there, and it bleeds over, I hope we are mature enough readers that we can interact with those whom we disagree.


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## bookslover (Apr 11, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Would he be like a Dr Grudem, or more reserved, like DA Carson?



Probably more on the Wayne Grudem side.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 11, 2018)

As to like "How he is in worship?" How expressive he is? I have no clue. But he was a missionary to war-torn parts of Africa, so I imagine quite expressive.


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## Dachaser (Apr 12, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> They aren't problematic areas, but even if they were, he is a responsible exegete and his first job is to exegete the text. It's a decent commentary. And even if he is wrong there, and it bleeds over, I hope we are mature enough readers that we can interact with those whom we disagree.


I agree with you on being able to read and learn from those that we disagree with, as have learned from both Calvinists and non Calvinists, from Covenant and Dispensational authors, but in this particular area of the Charismatic, my experience is that it can downward spiral into Charismatic Chaos.
One author who know is a Pentecostal, but who has written good commentaries was Gorden Fee, so its not that all of them holding to Charismatic are bad, but many of them really are.


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## Dachaser (Apr 12, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Probably more on the Wayne Grudem side.


Which is too bad, as coming over from Pentecostal circles, I really enjoyed reading and using Dr Grudem systematic theology, except for his issues on the subordination of Jesus, and the charismatic take on gifts and workings of the Holy Spirit today.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 12, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I agree with you on being able to read and learn from those that we disagree with, as have learned from both Calvinists and non Calvinists, from Covenant and Dispensational authors, but in this particular area of the Charismatic, my experience is that it can downward spiral into Charismatic Chaos.
> One author who know is a Pentecostal, but who has written good commentaries was Gorden Fee, so its not that all of them holding to Charismatic are bad, but many of them really are.



And I know bad, abusive cessationists.


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## bookslover (Apr 12, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Which is too bad, as coming over from Pentecostal circles, I really enjoyed reading and using Dr Grudem systematic theology, except for his issues on the subordination of Jesus, and the charismatic take on gifts and workings of the Holy Spirit today.



And his approval of women deacons, if I recall.


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## Dachaser (Apr 12, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And I know bad, abusive cessationists.


I would draw the line myself at those holding with heretical prosperity, new revelation, modern day Prophets/Apostles.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 12, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I would draw the line myself at those holding with heretical prosperity, new revelation, modern day Prophets/Apostles.



You are confusing a bunch of issues into one. Keener rejects prosperity teaching (not sure why you are even bringing that up; shucks, even Jim Bakker now rejects it). I am also certain that Keener rejects the NAR, so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.


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## Dachaser (Apr 13, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> You are confusing a bunch of issues into one. Keener rejects prosperity teaching (not sure why you are even bringing that up; shucks, even Jim Bakker now rejects it). I am also certain that Keener rejects the NAR, so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.


I was just addressing to you that I do not place all Charismatic views and teaching in the same theological basket.


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