# ordination of all things



## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

This question was asked to me by a friend of mine who is a free willy believer. 

"IF God has ordained all things that come to pass" as I(me) believe. Than has He not ordained that I believe as I do? 

And by me trying to show Him the fallacies of free willyism arnt I also trying to break the decree of the Sovereign?


He asked it very humbly and heartfelt. I honestly had no answer for him. 




In His grace


Joseph


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 16, 2005)

God has not only decreed those who shall be saved (the number of which is unknown to us) but he has also ordained the means to bring that about. And His ordaining all things does not remove human responsibility. You are responsible for what you believe, both truth and error.


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

These are good questions and due to their somewhat metaphysical nature are difficult to grasp. I will give a brief response.

"IF God has ordained all things that come to pass" as I(me) believe. Than has He not ordained that I believe as I do?" 

Yes, definitely.

"And by me trying to show Him the fallacies of free willyism arnt I also trying to break the decree of the Sovereign?"

No. God not only ordains the end (belief in God) but the means as well (such as your discussion with your friend). In other words, God does not ordain "John will believe X" without knowing how this will come to be. He ordains *everything*. That includes "Jane will tell John about God and John will come to believe in God." 

Here is a helpful summary from the Westminster Confession (modern English): "Although"”in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause"”all things come to pass unchangeably and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he orders them to occur according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently."

Hope that helps.


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> God has not only decreed those who shall be saved (the number of which is unknown to us) but he has also ordained the means to bring that about. And His ordaining all things does not remove human responsibility. You are responsible for what you believe, both truth and error.



Patrick: So where does His ordination stop and the persons responsibility start? I am not talking about sin. IF your response was given to this person or anyone, then what would stop them from replying, well then I made a responsible decision to believe as I believe. I am not for one minute suggesting that only those who adhere to the WCF, or TULIP will be occupying heaven, because this could not be farther from the truth.

I everything remains inside the will of God, as as it is confessed that He has ordained ALL things that come to pass, I see no room to wiggle responsibility in there for believing in free willyism. 

Can a person believe in a flase gospel and still be saved? I am not speaking of an openly heretical belief. I am attempting to stay with in the confines of some orthodoxy. And who determines this?

Do we become monopolizers of heavan? I need a better response than that, but I will try it with him.

Thank you

Joseph


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## wsw201 (Mar 16, 2005)

It appears that the question he is asking goes to the decrees of God. An important passage that may help is Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." One of the hidden things is who the elect are. Consider the life of Paul. He was a persecutor of the Church but in God's own time he was called into the Church and became an Apostle. So your friend may not believe now but God may end up calling him into the Kingdom down the road and you may end up being the means the God uses to to just that.


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

I see Patrick beat me to the post! One other point to make is that God's ordination of all things does not mean that man is not free in some ways. While man is not free to counteract God's ordination, he is free to do what he wants. God's ordination does not force anyone to do anything they don't want. Rather, God's ordination in part works through men's free choices. God ordains what men freely choose. This is not a contradiction because the ordination and freedom are not referring to the same thing in the same way. 

The Confession likewise notes this natural liberty of man: "God has endowed the will of man with such natural liberty that it is neither forced nor"”by any absolute necessity of nature"” determined to good or evil."


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> These are good questions and due to their somewhat metaphysical nature are difficult to grasp. I will give a brief response.
> 
> "IF God has ordained all things that come to pass" as I(me) believe. Than has He not ordained that I believe as I do?"
> ...




Thank you Scott and yes it does help.

But if one determines that free willyism is a flase gospel, and the person dies believing it, can one conclude that their salvation is questionable? 

I found an article written by Herman Hoeksema that I will post. Please do not get nervous, it is not Hyper propaganda, in fact I believe he handles it very honestly and humbly.


In His Grace

Joseph


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> It appears that the question he is asking goes to the decrees of God. An important passage that may help is Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." One of the hidden things is who the elect are. Consider the life of Paul. He was a persecutor of the Church but in God's own time he was called into the Church and became an Apostle. So your friend may not believe now but God may end up calling him into the Kingdom down the road and you may end up being the means the God uses to to just that.



He is a believer though. He just believes in free will. He lives a holy life, and walks humbly with the Lord.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 16, 2005)

"The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps" (Prov. 16:9 ESV).


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

Chris: great verse for this point.


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## lwadkins (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> God's ordination does not force anyone to do anything they don't want.



Course 3 days in the belly of a whale might help you to want to..


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

"But if one determines that free willyism is a flase gospel, and the person dies believing it, can one conclude that their salvation is questionable?"

I am not sure how you define "free willyism" but if it is just Arminianism, that is not a heresy that damns. It is simply a mistake. Salvation does not come through believing in predestination. Salvation comes in receiving and resting on Christ alone.


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "But if one determines that free willyism is a flase gospel, and the person dies believing it, can one conclude that their salvation is questionable?"
> 
> I am not sure how you define "free willyism" but if it is just Arminianism, that is not a heresy that damns. It is simply a mistake. Salvation does not come through believing in predestination. Salvation comes in receiving and resting on Christ alone.




Exactly, So his point is why am I trying to get him to understand the full 100% Sovereignty of God in salvation.


If God allows us to choose what to believe, then does He ordain that choice? It obviously starts and ends with Him .


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 16, 2005)

Joseph,
Just use accounts of Scripture where God teaches both His soveriegnty and responsibility. How about the incident where David numbered his men? One account states that God moved David to do it, another that Satan moved him to do it, and another that David himselof thought it. Which account is right? They all are. God works through the secondary causes (i.e. the wills of men and angels/demons, nature, etc.). David numbered them because he wanted to know how strong he was. Satan wanted David to number them to bring about judgment on Israel, and God allowed it all for the purpose of punishing Israel and bringing them to repentence. You could point this out with other examples as well. Moses and Pharoah, Jacob and Esau, etc.... God is sovereign, man is responsible.


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## wsw201 (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by wsw201_
> ...



Sorry. Tooo early in the morning to read posts


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## doulosChristou (Mar 16, 2005)

Your friend does not grasp the orthodox position on God's sovereignty. It sounds like he believes that either God is in control or man is in control but not both. God having full control over an action is perfectly compatible with man having control over the exact same action -- one of the few truths that Arminianism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Process Theology are all in agreement against. Joseph's brothers did exactly what they wanted in full accordance with their sinful, jealous hearts when they sold him into slavery; they were fully responsible for their actions, actions ordained by God for His eternal purposes. Men are not puppets. God is so great, however, that in His omnisapience He is able to orchestrate all things in such a way that men freely (not libertine freedom, mind you) choose every action according to their greatest desire in a way that makes them responsible yet also accords fully with God's unsearchable designs. In the Joseph example, you can see the beginnings of God working out His soveriegn will this way in the dreams He gives to Joseph, dreams which he knows in his divine wisdom will sow seeds of jealousy in those weak brothers. I would submit that the orthodox view of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility exhibits a higher view of the immensity and omnipotence of God than does the hyper-Calvinist's view of God's sovereignty.


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## Arch2k (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "But if one determines that free willyism is a flase gospel, and the person dies believing it, can one conclude that their salvation is questionable?"
> 
> I am not sure how you define "free willyism" but if it is just Arminianism, that is not a heresy that damns. It is simply a mistake. Salvation does not come through believing in predestination. Salvation comes in receiving and resting on Christ alone.



Arminianism denies the gospel as a work of God and ultimately turns it into the work of man. Salvation by our own obedience ruins the gospel. It is just a destroying as the Pharisees adding their own works to the gospel. It's always Faith + Something or Grace + Something else. Belief in this gospel cannot save.

WLC 
Q. 72. What is justifying faith?

A. Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.

Note that saving faith includes the persuasion in one's own "disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition." This is exactly what Arminianism DENIES. They believe that they DO have the ability to recover themselves out of their lost condition...by FREE WILL. They put their entire salvation in their depraved hands, not the hands of Christ.

People who believe in this have not yet been regenerated and it is damaging to believe that they are. We must preach that they are UNABLE to come to Christ, but only God can grant this to them. Salvation is by Christ alone.


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

Jeff, I sincerely disagree with the first part of this statement.


People who believe in this have not yet been regenerated and it is damaging to believe that they are. We must preach that they are UNABLE to come to Christ, but only God can grant this to them. Salvation is by Christ alone. 

If that is the case then all of the Kingdom will be filled with those who agree with you. I never go to the extent of doctrinal salvation. And I believe a person can be saved while in an arminian church. Again, this would also make God a segregationist because 90% of Sovereign grace believers are WASPs. 

THat said, to reply to Patrick and Greg, I see both in scripture and with my limited understanding accept them. I know God is Sovereign, and I know man is responsible. The issue with my friend is He knows it was God, but believes that God ordained the choice for people to make. And if He ordains all things that come to pass, and I do not want to digress into a 2 willed God, why should I bother talking to him about where I feel he errors in his convictions? 

Jeff again you stated this:
Belief in this gospel cannot save.

This again speaks of Doctrinal or Gospel salvation which is also foreign to scripture. I mean who has the list of what is necessary? The Gospel does not save, Christ alone saves. 

As an aside, what you are all saying is not new to myself or this person. But the question he asked was thoughtfull and was not intended to be a mockery of anything.

If I give the answers that some have provided, it still does not alleviate the tension of "What if God has ordained him to be where he is now?' I believe he is asking me if I believe he is saved. and Jeff, We cannot determine who is regenerate or not. We cannot know who the elect are or not. 


In His Grace

Joseph


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

Jeff: That portion of the Confession is addressing issues broader than the bare minimum for justification. The shorter catechism describes what faith is (and we agree that justification is by faith alone) in more succinct terms:

Q. 86. What is faith in Jesus Christ?
A. Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel. 

This does not involve belief in predestination as a precondition for justification.


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## doulosChristou (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Jeff, I sincerely disagree with the first part of this statement.


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## Arch2k (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> If that is the case then all of the Kingdom will be filled with those who agree with you. I never go to the extent of doctrinal salvation. And I believe a person can be saved while in an arminian church. Again, this would also make God a segregationist because 90% of Sovereign grace believers are WASPs.
> Jeff again you stated this:
> Belief in this gospel cannot save.



I never said that a person must be a Calvinist, or hold to the WCF to be saved. I simply said that Arminians are not. They do not believe that Christ alone saves them....they believe that themselves cooperating with Christ saves them. This mixes salvation with works and merit.



> This again speaks of Doctrinal or Gospel salvation which is also foreign to scripture. I mean who has the list of what is necessary? The Gospel does not save, Christ alone saves.



You are mixing a gospel/Christ dichotomy that is foreign to scripture. Christ and his work is the good news. The good news is Christ. Of course the gospel is doctrinal, otherwise there would be no such thing as a false gospel.



> and Jeff, We cannot determine who is regenerate or not. We cannot know who the elect are or not.



I agree that we cannot determine who is elect or not. But, we judge people's regeneration all of the time. I don't witness to christians, I witness to unbelievers. I judge their gospel according to God's word, and based upon that I act. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses et al, are not saved and are in need of the truth. We judge that with a RIGHTEOUS judgment (John 7).


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## Arch2k (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Jeff: That portion of the Confession is addressing issues broader than the bare minimum for justification. The shorter catechism describes what faith is (and we agree that justification is by faith alone) in more succinct terms:
> 
> Q. 86. What is faith in Jesus Christ?
> ...



I have never endorsed a belief in predestination as a precondition for justification. That only adds things to the gospel. I simply stated what a person cannot believe...salvation by works. 

I also disagree with your assessment of the Larger catechism. Resting on Christ alone by implication denies that one is resting on themselves. Surely you would admit that Arminians are "resting" on themselves when they exalt free will to the only thing (ultimately) that can saves them.


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> I never said that a person must be a Calvinist, or hold to the WCF to be saved. I simply said that Arminians are not. They do not believe that Christ alone saves them....they believe that themselves cooperating with Christ saves them. This mixes salvation with works and merit.



Well you dont have to say it exactly. But to claim an arminian is lost says the same thign Jeff. Cmon. I fight for the faith as well as the next. But what other choice do we have? Either Sov Grace or arminian. Basically you say all arminians are lost. This is a grand idea to declare. 

Let me ask you one thing. If you can show me in Scripture where Christ asks a person what they believe before He saved them. I will relent. I cannot find one instance where Christ asked anyone what they believed. In fact he said "Ye search the scriptures because in them you THINK you have life, but you will not come to me" 





> You are mixing a gospel/Christ dichotomy that is foreign to scripture. Christ and his work is the good news. The good news is Christ. Of course the gospel is doctrinal, otherwise there would be no such thing as a false gospel.



Look, I may "mix" things in other ideas. But this one I will not budge. Christ came to save sinners. That is the gospel. Believe and Live. That is the Gospel. To assume that only those who believe what you consider necessary is setting yourself up as the seperator again. The is no such idea of Gospel Salvation, or Doctrinal Salvation. Other than The fact that the blood of Christ is what saves!!!!!!!!!!! Where do you draw the line? Are you going to lock the doors to heavan for those who do not match up to your prescribed DNA of Doctrine?



> I agree that we cannot determine who is elect or not. But, we judge people's regeneration all of the time. I don't witness to christians, I witness to unbelievers. I judge their gospel according to God's word, and based upon that I act. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses et al, are not saved and are in need of the truth. We judge that with a RIGHTEOUS judgment (John 7).



Again, that scripture is used as a blanket for condemning. I do not judge anyones regeneration. Never. All I know Is that if God can save a sinful, vile wretch as myself, He can save anyone if He so pleases. 


"You know, a Calvinist (excuse the term; I am not any too fond of it myself. Never do I use it if I can help it. I don´t think I have used it a half dozen times from the pulpit, which is not very frequent in three years and a half), I say a Calvinist is after all a distinctive Christian. Not all Christians are Calvinists. Mark, I say: "˜not all Christians are Calvinists.´ They may be Christians all right. Sure! Dear children of God, with whom I love to shake hands. I don´t believe that there is a Calvinist that denies this. I don´t think that there is a Calvinist who maintains that the Calvinists are the only Christians. And those who love to waste paper (and that in this time when paper is so valuable!) by fighting against Calvinists who maintain that they are the only Christians on earth, are fighting a shadow, a product of their own imagination. No, but I claim that a Calvinist is a Christian of a distinctive type, with distinctive principles and views, in distinction, namely, from other Christians. Never let any method of reasoning lead you to the belief that all Christians are Calvinists, for then things will be getting so dark, that you lose all power to distinguish. The Methodist is a good sincere Christian, all right. Of course he is! A dear brother. But he is not a Calvinist. The same is true of the Anabaptist, the Lutheran, etc. All together they constitute the church of Jesus Christ on earth, as long as they confess that Jesus is the Christ. But within that large circle there are different shades and forms of faith, and the Calvinist also maintains his own distinctive world and life view in their midst. Now, what I mean to say is that to maintain your distinctive character as a Calvinistic Christian, you must not merely be able to discern clearly what distinguishes you from the rest, but you must have the courage of your conviction such as can be the fruit only of the faith in the Word of God. Only the conviction that our form of faith is the purest expression of Scripture (again, mark, I do not say: the only form or expression) can give us the courage to refuse amalgamation. And therefore, it is necessary, that we are conscious of the relation between our Reformed Faith and the Word of God."


Herman Hoeksema. `1919 issue of the banner.


In His Grace


Joseph


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## doulosChristou (Mar 16, 2005)

Whitefield was able to say of Wesley (a 5-point Arminian), when asked by his fellow 5-point Calvinists if if they would see Wesley in heaven:

"I fear not, he will be so near the throne, and we shall be at such a distance, that we shall hardly get sight of him."


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2005)

Ok, I understand you now (I think I misunderstood you earlier) and I still disagree.

Ordinary Arminians do not trust in their decision as a "work" that they trust in to merit salvation. They do not offer it up as a commercial exchange. They don't trust in it as a contribution that merits salvation. It is simply an instruement through which salvation is obtained. 

Let's use an analogy. This is what Arminians are not like. Say a pair of people want to pool their resources to purchase a painting for $100. John contributes $5 and Joshua contributes $95. The analogy is the Arminian gives $5 (his decision) and Jesus gives $95 (his death). They don't see it that way. 

They would say that Jesus paid for the whole thing and they just accepted the benefit. This acceptance is as a gift, not as a commercial transaction. 

Scott


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## pastorway (Mar 16, 2005)

Jeff, 

you are wrong. Arminians can be saved and many are, and calvinists can be lost, and many are!

Trusting Christ to save you, no matter how much or how little you understand about faith, grace, works, etc, is all that matters.

Paul told the Philippian jailor to believe, he did, he was saved. It was simple faith in Christ.

The problem is that today many so-called "Arminians" really are not Arminians. They just are not Calvinists. 

I was saved when I was an Arminian. I believed God required me to repent of my sin and trust Christ. I had no idea that He would give me the repentance and faith. I thought it was my choice, my free will decision. I believed salvation was by grace through faith, but as a 9 year old had no idea the complex theology involved. In my mind, at that time, I chose, repented of my sin, trusted Christ, and I was just as saved then as I am now.

So let's not get going on this nonsense that Arminians cannot be saved.

Phillip


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 16, 2005)

> Christ came to save sinners. That is the gospel. Believe and Live. That is the Gospel. To assume that only those who believe what you consider necessary is setting yourself up as the seperator again. The is no such idea of Gospel Salvation, or Doctrinal Salvation. Other than The fact that the blood of Christ is what saves!!!!!!!!!!!



But "Christ came to save sinners" is not the gospel. "Believe and Live" is not the gospel. Those are all pieces that make up the WHOLE of the good news. Apart from the gospel, no one can be saved, which means that there IS a specific salvific gospel. Saying that "the blood of Christ saves" is merely a metaphor for His entire work. His sacrifice is a piece of the gospel.





> I do not judge anyones regeneration. Never.



But saying that Arminians are saved is, in fact, judging their regeneration. I think the point Jeff was trying to make is that a judgment is a judegment; no matter if you're deciding someone IS a Christian or deciding they're NOT.

I think part of the problem here is that some people are using the term "Arminian" to mean "non-Calvinist" while others are using it to mean "subscriber to the 5 Points of Arminianism".

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by MissSolaFide]


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## Puritanhead (Mar 16, 2005)

*God ordained that you trump his \"free will\" idolatry*



> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> This question was asked to me by a friend of mine who is a free willy believer.
> 
> "IF God has ordained all things that come to pass" as I(me) believe. Than has He not ordained that I believe as I do?
> ...



Typical Arminian sophistry. We as finite human beings with divine omniscience are not privy to God's sovereign will, except as what the Lord has revealed about himself through divine revelation. God has revealed his will, and his plan for the redemption of humanity... If your friend wants to vindicate his free willism-- challenge him in light of Scripture. 

Tell him, God has ordained that you stand by the doctrines of grace.... keep quoting Scripture and be rigorlously Scriptural, but not strident. Share the doctrines of grace in much the same way as you would evangelise, in the spirit of 2 Timothy 2:24-25.

The Bible tells us as much about anthropology (doctrine of man) as it does theology (doctrine of God.) Man's problem is not the lack of a will per say, but rather that he is in bondage to his will, and that will is to sin. Your friend presupposes that his "free will" has salvific attributes, and that somehow he had a role in his salvation notwithstanding Eph. 2:8-10, Rom 9:16, Php. 2:13. After you study and reflect yourself, I would recommend going over Scripture with him-- chapter by chapter, verse by verse. Ephesians 1, Romans 9, John 17... Indeed, going over Paul's systematic theology Romans is always helpful.

Explaining our total inability and the nature of the new birth is a good start. Men that are spiritually dead that is dead in sins and trespasses can no more effectuate their new birth (through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit) than they did their conception and birth. It was not a cooperative effort any more than it was on the part of Lazarus when Jesus raised him from the dead. Dead men don't raise themselves. The new birth is from above. I think working from the Total Depravity or irresistible Grace-- is better place to start in the TULIP to defend the doctrines of grace... Once you understand the work of the Spirit and really understand the doctrine of sin-- than you fathom the depth of God's grace and mercy, and see that we really have nothing to boast in but the Cross.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


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## Arch2k (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Let's use an analogy. This is what Arminians are not like. Say a pair of people want to pool their resources to purchase a painting for $100. John contributes $5 and Joshua contributes $95. The analogy is the Arminian gives $5 (his decision) and Jesus gives $95 (his death). They don't see it that way.
> Scott



Scott, 

I agree that some Arminians would disagree (at least professedly) with this analogy. However, many would not. Billy Graham has gone on record saying that salvation is 99% God, and 1% man. This is heresy (I think you would agree here)! 

However, when you examine what they say, it is contradictory, isn't it? This is my example of how an Arminian conversation would go:

Arminian: "I believe in salvation by grace through faith alone."

Believer: "So, ultimately salvation depends on your free-will?"

Arminian: "Yes, God comes to every man and gives him grace to believe, but ultimately, he must decide for himself, out of his ability. Man isn't dead, he still has the power to believe, he is just sick."

Believer: "So, your entrance into heaven ultimately depends on your efforts and willing?"

Arminian: "I don't like to phrase it that way, but in a way you could say that."

Believer: "So Christ's work was insufficient to save you?"

Arminian: "No! But Christ is a gentlemen, he will stand at the door and knock, but won't barge his way in."

Believer: "So you have to open the door?"

Arminian: "Exactly!"


I hope you can see that this ultimately puts salvation in the hands of man, not in God. For the Arminian, faith merits them salvation. Their choice earns them heaven. Salvation by grace teaches that salvation and faith are a gift given to us by God. If saving faith is believing that Christ alone saves you, that rules out all extra "opening the door" etc. Christ opens the door, he walks in and gives life to our dead souls. 

By the way, I realize that many historic Calvinist regarded Arminians as regenerate (i.e. Whitefield, Spurgeon, etc.), but many regarded them as the worst heretics (i.e. Toplady, Owen and others). 

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." "“John Owen, III:433

Spurgeon contradicted himself on this subject, but his sermon "Free Will "“ A Slave" contains this quote: 

"Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, 'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his sould believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is the 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men."


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> 
> > Christ came to save sinners. That is the gospel. Believe and Live. That is the Gospel. To assume that only those who believe what you consider necessary is setting yourself up as the seperator again. The is no such idea of Gospel Salvation, or Doctrinal Salvation. Other than The fact that the blood of Christ is what saves!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...




For the lack of space, those are the Gospel.

The Bible does not save either. The blood of Christ saves. period.

If those prior to the whole compilation of the Holy Writ were saved. Prior to ANY discussion of reformed understanding. We are saved the exact same way. 

WHen Paul rebuke the Colossians to return to the truth they were taught, what do you think that truth is? It is Christ. That is the Doctrine that one has to believe to be saved. 

Your analogy of me saying I judge noones regeneration is a false analogy. I assume everyone is elect. So what you said really holds no merit. To say His sacrafice is only a piece belittles it In my humble opinion. We are not called to immitate Him. His whole life death and resurection is in that Cross.

Anyway. this is digressing big time here. 

Perhaps someone would start another thread.


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## The Lamb (Mar 16, 2005)

> Typical Arminian sophistry.




Very broad brush you are workign with picasso. This friend is one I am a brother in Christ with. He is not playing games with me. Your premature conclusion could not be father from the truth. That is all i will say in regards to your post. 


In His Name


Joseph


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## Puritanhead (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> you are wrong. Arminians can be saved and many are, and calvinists can be lost, and many are!



I agree... I wouldn't write the bulk of my Arminian brethren as lost, but rather "confused." Ideas have consequences though-- there are Arminians out there so caught up in their man-centered religion that they're literally in bondage to legalism, and have not savored the sweet nectar of saving grace.

I've ran into Calvinists who seem to think failure to exegete Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 properly means one's salvation is in question. But being regenerate and born again is not about intellectual assent to the TULIP or systematic understanding of God's plan for man's redemption. Salvation is all of grace, not some quasi-gnosticism (i.e. salvation by knowledge.) I'll grant, the Apostle Paul says he was saved when he took heed to sound doctrine.

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by Puritanhead]


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