# Is Reformed Evangelicalism a Place for the Traumatized, by Paul Maxwell



## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2019)

Here is the article. I like a lot of what Paul Maxwell has to say:

https://paulcmaxwell.com/2017/03/03...q-2m5pvypNNfkmgLRxvh_3EeMXfgG9KKn3e1UFGGRua-8

"It was a sobering moment of clarity for me — time slowed down for me. In that moment, my entire seminary experience flashed before my eyes. At Westminster Theological Seminary, they called themselves “Machen’s Warrior Children,” and they wore it like a badge of pride. Faculty behind closed doors would refer to times when they colluded to get other faculty fired as “My tour in ‘Nam.” Students would get together at pubs and talk about how all the other seminaries were much worse, too soft, not insightful enough, not consistent enough, not vigilant enough.

I was new to the whole Presbyterian world. But only a few months after I moved to Philadelphia to attend Westminster, it felt like home for one reason. My hypervigilant pursuit of truth was rewarded. My “black and white” conception of the world was applauded. Everyone was put in categories of “in” and “out.” If you fell in line, and paid allegiance to the right people, you were treated as family. If not, you were exiled, and treated as untrustworthy. I don’t know if all Presbyterian communities are like this, or if all Reformed communities are like this. But this was my experience of Presbyterianism in Philadelphia. It was political to the core. And the political players at Westminster were looking for soldiers to fight in their war. Against whom? Everyone else."


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## KMK (Jan 14, 2019)

I am often guilty of having a superior attitude. I have to repent regularly. I have seen this problem also in every church I have been part of: Methodist, CMandA, Calvary, and Baptist. All for different reasons.

It is easy for a pastor to grow fervent disciples by telling them they are better/smarter/more charitable than other Christians.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 14, 2019)

Sounded more to me that Maxwell had never really left the cage stage in his walk of faith. It is an ongoing problem with not a few, whether Presbyterian or not.

At the root of the issue is the plain fact that Reformed doctrine requires a degree of intellectual engagement not present outside its domain. This can breed arrogance. After all, we are all suffering the noetic effects of sin.

Judging an entire class of believers by experiences in academia will lead to much of what Maxwell laments. Academia is a hotbed of cloistered politics and it can leak on to the students that carry the infection outside its walls.

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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 14, 2019)

What's he mean, "Faculty behind closed doors would refer to times when they colluded to get other faculty fired as “My tour in ‘Nam”"? That sounds like (besides a near-betrayal of confidence) a "filter," a moment of _that's how it came across to me and the phrase that sticks out in my memory was.... _This rehearsal also makes it sound like this is the kind of reflection that went on frequently (if usually "behind closed doors"). As if he must have had these private chitchats with all the faculty, and on a weekly basis, until he was numb.

Would that faculty member call _whatever involvement he had in whatever dismissal he meant _"collusion?" Would that be his word for it? I've heard things about men who were involved in battles at WTS which could fairly be called a fight for the very soul and identity of the seminary. Maybe the blogger could care less about the legacy of this or any other institution. Maybe the blogger wishes the guy that was fired (Shepherd? Enns?) had kept his job. Maybe he just wishes there was less "politics" there and everywhere.

I'm not for wishing this guy had a different take on his experience. He has a right to his knowledge, his impressions, and his legitimate perspective. What bugs me is that 1) he colors a much wider picture (of WTS and Presbyterians generally) with his individual trauma-lens; and 2) he leaves the reader with the sense that other schools that don't have WTS _d-n-a_ (but do have their own sets of intrigues and pitfalls) are better for that reason.

I wish he'd gone somewhere else too. Then today he might be looking askance at GPTS, or SBTS, or TEDS, or RTS... and writing from out of the same survivor-mode by which he's processed his childhood and other miseries. In which case, I'd still be wishing he went somewhere else too.

I wish the fellow students he met were all the kind whose conversation put him at ease in all situations. I'm really not sure he would have found that anyplace--unless the situation was so perfectly conducive to him, that he took to the environment like a fish to water. Fish: "What's water?"

I have a real "lack of appreciation" for my college experience. But I know a whole lot of people whose experience and memories of my _alma mater are _vastly better than mine. I recognize that part of my dissatisfaction is a result of not being Baptist or Evangelical, then or now. And that's what kind of place it was. I'm not going to publicly criticize the place for not catering to me.

This blogger wasn't/isn't a Presbyterian, but he went to a Presbyterian institution; he went to a school that started in 1929 from nothing, hoping to preserve the preparation of gospel ministers for a church that was busily making their scene unpleasant for people who still held to the old Confession of Faith. Blogger should know (!) that a survival-mentality stamps itself pretty well on the psyche not only of individuals, but institutions.

WTS no doubt has its flaws, it's probably "political," and it has occasionally had a reputation for sliding away from its roots in one direction or another. It has a reputation for quality and for academic rigor; so it attracts a few bright minds and a number of folks who just want a WTS parchment to hang on their wall.

I'm not much of a John Stuart Mill fan, and I'm also a whole lot more disenchanted with the military and bloody conflict than I was back in the day. But this statement contains a lot more more truth than falsehood,


> War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.
> "The Contest in America," Fraser’s Magazine (February 1862); later published in Dissertations and Discussions (1868), vol.1 p. 26


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Replace JSM's idea of armed conflict with spiritual conflict, fought not with the weapons of man's warfare but with equal determination and fortitude. These phrases are still in the Bible: "Contend for the faith once delivered to the saints." "Put on the whole armor of God." And a few others. Not every Christian is a warrior; and not every young private in training, talking trash in the pub, is as sober and measured in his comments as the seasoned soldier back from the trenches. And not every veteran-trainer or idle-veteran is quite the battlefield hero he remembers himself as.

Reactions: Like 8 | Edifying 1


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jan 14, 2019)

Wow. I'm not too sure what to think. In life, there needs to be a healthy balance, and then there is a time for all things under heaven. Life is so complex. Sometimes we need to make a firm stance in what we believe, other times we need to embrace with love those who don't agree. This isn't easy stuff, and there's no simple formula to always act with the most wisdom. But always, we must treat all people in a way that clearly exemplifies the fruit of the Spirit. I've found that the more mature I become in Christianity, the more I am concerned with simply living a life practically devoted to God, and become less interested in puffing up my brain with thoughts that are too mysterious. What I learn, I am so thankful to know, but the end goal is to apply it and make me a better follower of Jesus. I know it's not something I can really say without getting push back from the reformed, but dogmatics are exactly what the word implies, they are opinions that we may be convinced are true, but there is really no way of knowing exactly who has it right. Because of this, I personally find that my life is much more healthy when I focus on what we have in common, on the clear, and on the practical, while making love lived out, my primary focus.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 14, 2019)

We are at war and the devil doesn’t play fair..... I feel bad for this man but his case is woefully lacking


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## TheOldCourse (Jan 14, 2019)

The guy seems to be espousing theological agnosticism couched within a bunch of psychobabble and I don't have much time or patience for that. WTS isn't the perfect seminary, but I applaud the fact that it takes a "hypervigilant pursuit of truth" seriously. WTS is not a church and it certainly isn't a counselling center. It's not meant to be a safe place for seekers and traumatized men to find themselves in. It's a specialized institution meant to train pastors who have a God-given duty over their flock to separate truth from error, to teach the former and rebuke the latter. The evangelical theological squishyness that ignores or marginalizes that responsibility has devastated our churches and nation. How about the trauma of generations of Christians who weren't cared for enough in their churches to be taught the basic rudiments of the faith and how to know the difference between the sweet, truthful voice of our Lord and the heresies and lies of the adversary?

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 14, 2019)

Some of here know this stuff from the inside. 

I went to WTS in the eighties. It was a good school in many ways and I learned a great deal there for which I'll be forever grateful. I went, as did Maxwell, not as a Presbyterian, but I left there as one, greatly encouraged whence I had come.

WTS also had its shortcomings then that I'll not catalog, except to say that, in several important respects (particularly in Biblical Studies, Old Testament especially), it did not always live up to its name: it was confessionally weak at points. 

It is clearly, in my opinion, in a better place today: it's more confessionally robust overall (including in Biblical Studies) and the faculty has much more pastoral experience and involvement than it did in my day. Again, more could be said (there are some professors from my day sorely missed now, gone due to the passage of years), but I say this to say that Mr. Maxwell's experience at and of WTS is not universal. I would caution to take it, for reasons that seem obvious to me, _cum grano salis. 

Peace,
Alan


_

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## py3ak (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I like a lot of what Paul Maxwell has to say:



Do you like this article? If so, why?



Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What I learn, I am so thankful to know, but the end goal is to apply it and make me a better follower of Jesus. I know it's not something I can really say without getting push back from the reformed, but dogmatics are exactly what the word implies, they are opinions that we may be convinced are true, but there is really no way of knowing exactly who has it right. Because of this, I personally find that my life is much more healthy when I focus on what we have in common, on the clear, and on the practical, while making love lived out, my primary focus.



Ryan, what do you think "dogmatics" means? To the extent that what you say is in the spirit of Paul's words about knowledge puffing up but love building up, your experience is not surprising. But of course, we need to _know_ that knowledge puffs up while love builds up, don't we? Our growth is to be both in grace and in knowledge, and no one is better served when two things that should be friends are split up.

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## Tom Hart (Jan 15, 2019)

It's hard for me to see how some of Paul Maxwell's statements are not at least bordering on slander.

_"And the political players at Westminster were looking for soldiers to fight in their war. Against whom? Everyone else."

"I was still trained for 4 years to think of everyone else as stupid. Everyone else’s view on counseling was unbiblical, but we had God’s view. Everyone else’s view on God’s will was unbiblical, but we had God’s view. Everyone else’s view on evil and salvation was illogical, but we had the most consistent view."

"I know of no other seminary with _such_ a trail of bodies, with _most_ of its alumni emotionally damaged from their experience there, still acting out their warrior impulses which they learned — still fighting, still poisoned by their weaponized theological skeletons."_


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

py3ak said:


> Do you like this article? If so, why?
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan, what do you think "dogmatics" means? To the extent that what you say is in the spirit of Paul's words about knowledge puffing up but love building up, your experience is not surprising. But of course, we need to _know_ that knowledge puffs up while love builds up, don't we? Our growth is to be both in grace and in knowledge, and no one is better served when two things that should be friends are split up.



This is the only article or video I've watched by him that I've been iffy about. He usually talks about the lack of masculinity in the church. And I think he is right about that. He does use a lot of psychological talk. 

I have noticed a high degree of "militancy" among some groups. The fighting over precise boundaries (are you "in" or are you "out")? And I have met many theologically astute people who are sort of jerks socially. I recently met someone who, for the first 30 minutes, interrogated me incessantly on my specific beliefs (I guess to determine if I was "one of his kind"). It was very off-putting. 

I am reflecting on the nature of seminary and the content and manner of what is taught. And I think we sometimes "churn out" a certain type. There is a certain culture or atmosphere in the air we breath and I am wondering if all of it is healthy.


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> It's hard for me to see how some of Paul Maxwell's statements are not at least bordering on slander.
> 
> _"And the political players at Westminster were looking for soldiers to fight in their war. Against whom? Everyone else."
> 
> ...


I often notice that it is listed as "slander" if someone speaks against someone we like. Yet we often speak very lowly of others like the Charismatics and Broad Evangelicals that we don't like, and nobody calls it slander. Many of the Reformed apply the 9th Commandment very unevenly, depending on whether the allegedly slandered party is one of us or not. I think it is sometimes just a tactic to contol the conversation.

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## De Jager (Jan 15, 2019)

What is he hoping to accomplish with this article?

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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2019)

TheOldCourse said:


> How about the trauma of generations of Christians who weren't cared for enough in their churches to be taught the basic rudiments of the faith and how to know the difference between the sweet, truthful voice of our Lord and the heresies and lies of the adversary?



Man, this hits the nail directly on the head. I grew up being deprived of these things, and still see my family being deprived of it, and it makes me very upset.



Alan D. Strange said:


> ...cum grano salis.



The fact that you put this in Latin made my day, sir. lol


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

De Jager said:


> What is he hoping to accomplish with this article?



To correct a systemic blind-spot among our sort of people, perhaps?


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## jw (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> To correct a systemic blind-spot among our sort of people, perhaps?


Where was the correction? I sensed complaint, but I didn't sense any directive toward brotherly correction. Was it inherent within the complaint? Whether he intended it or not, what he got -at least if the comments are any indication- is lots of commiseration. The abuse of something inherently lawful (or the _perceived_ abuse of it) does not call for its abolition/destruction, but its reformation. If these problems are as ubiquitous as he asserts, then let him provide some constructive correction, and not what seems merely to be complaint. Let us not be impervious to abuses where they truly exist, but let us make every effort not to suffer sin upon our brethren, rebuking them in a constructive way born of love, not a dismissive way that seeks only to criticize yet provide no direction.

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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

Joshua said:


> Where was the correction? I sensed complaint, but I didn't sense any directive toward brotherly correction. Was it inherent within the complaint? Whether he intended it or not, what he got -at least if the comments are any indication- is lots of commiseration. The abuse of something inherently lawful (or the _perceived_ abuse of it) does not call for its abolition/destruction, but its reformation. If these problems are as ubiquitous as he asserts, then let him provide some constructive correction, and not what seems merely to be complaint. Let us not be impervious to abuses where they truly exist, but let us make every effort not to suffer sin upon our brethren, rebuking them in a constructive way born of love, not a dismissive way that seeks only to criticize yet provide no direction.


Yours is a valid response. Awareness of a fault is the first step in curing a fault, perhaps is his logic? Id' like to think it was more than a vent. Though a venting can be edifying if it shakes us awake out of our blind spots.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I often notice that it is listed as "slander" if someone speaks against someone we like. Yet we often speak very lowly of others like the Charismatics and Broad Evangelicals that we don't like, and nobody calls it slander. Many of the Reformed apply the 9th Commandment very unevenly, depending on whether the allegedly slandered party is one of us or not. I think it is sometimes just a tactic to contol the conversation.



Do you think what he says is true? Are WTS students being taught that "everyone else is stupid"? It's quite a charge.

Maybe you know about some dark side of WTS. As for me, I think we ought to exercise a little more charity to fellow believers. (A WTS graduate taught me that.)


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Do you think what he says is true? Are WTS students being taught that "everyone else is stupid"? It's quite a charge.
> 
> Maybe you know about some dark side of WTS. As for me, I think we ought to exercise a little more charity to fellow believers. (A WTS graduate taught me that.)



I've been around enough Reformed Baptists to know that there can sometimes be an aire of superiority towards other believers such as evangelicals. I believe this is an attitude that happens among the Reformed sometimes.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I've been around enough Reformed Baptists to know that there can sometimes be an aire of superiority towards other believers such as evangelicals. I believe this is an attitude that happens among the Reformed sometimes.



Maxwell didn't say merely that Reformed people have an air of superiority. He went quite a bit further than that.


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## py3ak (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> There is a certain culture or atmosphere in the air we breath and I am wondering if all of it is healthy.



Yes, churches and schools (and discussion forums) have a certain atmosphere, and having a healthy atmosphere is important. But it's a legitimately tricky subject because:
1. Atmospheres are not static, but are in continual motion;
2. Atmospheres can't be changed directly, but only indirectly;
3. How an atmosphere impacts someone is very dependent on who they are;
4. Analyzing something subtle and pervasive is not easy;
5. Difficult-to-refute but impossible-to-prove charges about atmosphere can be used to express dislike.
6. Where there are "in" and "out" groups, the experience of the "in group" is almost diametrically opposite to the experience of the "out group".

There are probably some additional difficulties, but those main ones rather leap to mind. Take number 3: you visit a church for the first time, and feel very singled out because people swarm on you and are talking so much they will hardly let you leave. If your hope and expectation was for near-anonymity, you probably don't like that place. A different visitor thought it was fantastic because they had dreaded being ignored and instead were greeted and engaged with promptly. Is the church's atmosphere healthy or unhealthy? Each visitor will have a different point of view, and neither one of them might be terribly accurate. I never went back to either of the two friendliest churches I ever visited.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I've been around enough Reformed Baptists to know that there can sometimes be an aire of superiority towards other believers such as evangelicals. I believe this is an attitude that happens among the Reformed sometimes.


This piece by Piper has always remained in the back of mind when interacting with others:

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-are-calvinists-so-negative

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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Maxwell didn't say merely that Reformed people have an air of superiority. He went quite a bit further than that.





Ask Mr. Religion said:


> This piece by Piper has always remained in the back of mind when interacting with others:
> 
> https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-are-calvinists-so-negative


Oh, but Piper is a heretic and not truly reformed, I've heard from several of my reformed friends.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Oh, but Piper is a heretic and not truly reformed, I've heard from several of my reformed friends.


Heh.

Piper gets tweaked, rightfully so, on some matters.

Off topic, but I have yet to run across a treatment of Romans 9:1-23 that surpasses his work:
https://www.amazon.com/Justification-God-Exegetical-Theological-Romans-ebook/dp/B008SARAS4

It is a John Piper that will surprise and school many if they take the time to read and digest it.

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## De Jager (Jan 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Oh, but Piper is a heretic and not truly reformed, I've heard from several of my reformed friends.



Well, he is baptist...


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## lynnie (Jan 15, 2019)

My husband is a WTS grad, 1977. He always says the professors were kind, gracious, non combative, wonderful to talk to about controversies, ie good listeners with thoughtful responses. He particularly loved Frame, Shepherd, Gaffin, and Miller.

But the student body could be brutal. Ive heard some awful stories from him and others who attended later. Guys would cross a lawn to inform a woman in the MAR she didnt belong there. Hub had some interactions where other students were so contemptuous and arrogant you wonder if they understood grace at all.

Jay Adams was notorious for contempt towards anybody outside his way of looking at things. He said once that New Life was not a church. Lol. Jack Miller was a fine and godly pastor and didnt deserve the scorn.

Sorry the author had a bad time. My guess is he was right about some students but too broad a brush. Trueman left for Grove City, but he was greatly loved in more recent years. Maybe entering with trauma made the author respond to vigorous debate with hurt instead of the zest of iron sharpening iron.


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## jw (Jan 15, 2019)

Note to Self: If the Bat visits CCRPC, do not acknowledge. Do not approach. Hug and greet and give thanks only in spirit.

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## Andrew35 (Jan 15, 2019)

As someone who has experience in and many close relationships with those in the IFB, Wesleyan, broadly evangelical, and charismatic worlds, let me just add to the above that intellectual (in this case, Reformed) arrogance and tribalism is merely one subcategory of arrogance and tribalism.

I wouldn't even be willing to go so far as to say it's the most noxious strain.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jan 15, 2019)

Andrew35 said:


> As someone who has experience in and many close relationships with those in the IFB, Wesleyan, broadly evangelical, and charismatic worlds, let me just say add to the above that intellectual (in this case, Reformed) arrogance and tribalism is merely one subcategory of arrogance and tribalism.
> 
> I wouldn't even be willing to go so far as to say it's the most noxious strain.


I agree. Pride is ingrained in our nature of sin. It bleeds out everywhere.


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2019)

Andrew35 said:


> As someone who has experience in and many close relationships with those in the IFB, Wesleyan, broadly evangelical, and charismatic worlds, let me just add to the above that intellectual (in this case, Reformed) arrogance and tribalism is merely one subcategory of arrogance and tribalism.
> 
> I wouldn't even be willing to go so far as to say it's the most noxious strain.


Yes, I have experienced the IFB tribalism, too. I spent a year at an Indy-Fundy Bible school. It was not a good year.

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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2019)

Do some traditions or groups do better or worse at spiritual pride? And why?


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## py3ak (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Do some traditions or groups do better or worse at spiritual pride? And why?



Perhaps most traditions believe others do worse at spiritual pride. You can probably guess why... 

More seriously, I don't doubt that being proud of being right when you are in fact wrong is something of a disadvantage. I think Wesley exhibited more pride than Whitefield, and part of that is that I side with Whitefield on their areas of disagreement.


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2019)

py3ak said:


> Perhaps most traditions believe others do worse at spiritual pride. You can probably guess why...
> 
> More seriously, I don't doubt that being proud of being right when you are in fact wrong is something of a disadvantage. I think Wesley exhibited more pride than Whitefield, and part of that is that I side with Whitefield on their areas of disagreement.


Yet, I am Reformed (even if just barely) and I've always thought that the Reformed (my own in-group) have been worse in this area of spiritual pride than Arminians.

Maybe I am just a mole amongst you's all, like the Manchurian Candidate! The Genevan Candidate!


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## Taylor (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Do some traditions or groups do better or worse at spiritual pride? And why?



It seems to me that a certain amount of pride comes with the fact of being a fallen human being with beliefs. It’s like when somebody told me one time, “You Calvinists always think you’re so right!” My response: “What, and you don’t think _you_ are? It’s the very nature of belief to believe what you believe is right and the opposite is wrong. That’s literally what it means to believe something to be true.” Perhaps pride in this sinful flesh is similar.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 16, 2019)

Cage stage and immaturity go hand in hand.... where the head comes before the heart...I hate to keep pointing to the YRR as a case study....
and I think even the debate driven ministries of a James White can leave many feeling a bit cold. My experience with reformed elders and ministers have been humbling.... These men who have to guide individuals and families through the brokenness of life lack no shortage of compassion and tenderness.... the pastoral care of the reformed minister of the word is truly where it’s at....

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## Goodcheer68 (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Yet, I am Reformed (even if just barely) and I've always thought that the Reformed (my own in-group) have been worse in this area of spiritual pride than Arminians.



One name...Roger Olson. Pride hits both sides!


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## KMK (Jan 16, 2019)

Are you saying the Reformed are like Kahn?


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## Taylor (Jan 16, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> ...I think even the debate driven ministries of a James White can leave many feeling a bit cold. My experience with reformed elders and ministers have been humbling.... These men who have to guide individuals and families through the brokenness of life lack no shortage of compassion and tenderness.... the pastoral care of the reformed minister of the word is truly where it’s at....



Just for clarification, Dr. White is a Reformed elder/pastor who has many times in the past most certainly sat at the bedsides of the dying, as well as many other situations where compassion and tenderness are required. Sure, he has a debating career, but he is also an elder/pastor, and quite an experienced one.

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## A.Joseph (Jan 16, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Just for clarification, Dr. White is a Reformed elder/pastor who has many times in the past most certainly sat at the bedsides of the dying, as well as many other situations where compassion and tenderness are required. Sure, he has a debating career, but he is also an elder/pastor, and quite an experienced one.


No doubt...the charitable, loving side, most don’t get to see..... I think the world is a case study for the T of Tulip, which provides a unique place for the reformed apologist to lovingly and definitively make the case for reformed theology and biblical truth.... we shouldn’t be perceived as radical or on the fringes of faith....we don’t always have to lead from the deep end, although it should be part of the whole comprehensive presentation of biblical faith. We don’t need to carry a sledgehammer however.... but I do believe it’s ultimately a matter of life and death


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## py3ak (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Yet, I am Reformed (even if just barely) and I've always thought that the Reformed (my own in-group) have been worse in this area of spiritual pride than Arminians.



Perhaps you're prone to think that the grass is always greener? Some personalities seem inclined to notice and object to problems "out there" whereas others are more inclined to be irritated at problems "in-here". Both run into the danger of self-congratulation for their superior insight.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Yet, I am Reformed (even if just barely) and I've always thought that the Reformed (my own in-group) have been worse in this area of spiritual pride than Arminians.



Trevor:

If you've every read anything that I've written on this Board, you know that I am not only ready to criticize us (the Reformed, Calvinists, and the like), but believe that we should do so first, thoroughly, honestly, and regularly.

When it comes to pride, we have a great deal of which to repent. Absolutely. Without question.

Calvinistic spiritual pride is utterly at odds, of course, with what we profess. Calvinists, more than anyone, should understand that we have nothing but what we've been given. But, sadly, we often act contrary to what we profess.

But worse spiritual pride than Arminians? Calvinistic spiritual pride is at odds with its own principles, but Arminians deny total inability and the glorious truth of the utterly gracious character of salvation. Calvinism exalts God and abases man. Arminianism does the opposite. Many Arminians may be humble in spite of their theology (and Calvinists proud in spite of theirs), but such humility is accidental for the Arminian and not essential: to the degree that the Arminian is consistently so, he is necessarily proud. 

Arminianism, and Arminians, do not believe that they need God as much as they do. While pride is foreign to Calvinism in theory (though not in practice, since we all fall short of this glorious Reformed theology), it is not to Arminianism. Pride is the very heart of Pelagianism, including in all its weaker forms, of which Arminianism is one. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1 | Amen 3


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## KMK (Jan 16, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Arminianism, and Arminians, do not believe that they need God as much as they do. While pride is foreign to Calvinism in theory (though not in practice, since we all fall short of this glorious Reformed theology), it is not to Arminianism. Pride is the very heart of Pelagianism, including in all its weaker forms, of which Arminianism is one.



Great point.


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## Pergamum (Jan 17, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Trevor:
> 
> If you've every read anything that I've written on this Board, you know that I am not only ready to criticize us (the Reformed, Calvinists, and the like), but believe that we should do so first, thoroughly, honestly, and regularly.
> 
> ...




_Pride is the very heart of Pelagianism, including in all its weaker forms, of which Arminianism is one. _


Very good point.


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## deleteduser99 (Jan 19, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Trevor:
> 
> If you've every read anything that I've written on this Board, you know that I am not only ready to criticize us (the Reformed, Calvinists, and the like), but believe that we should do so first, thoroughly, honestly, and regularly.
> 
> ...



I've been an arrogant Calvinist and arrogant Arminian.
Arrogant Dispensational and arrogant Reformed.
Arrogant Baptist and arrogant Paedobaptist.
Arrogant Charismatic and arrogant cessationist.
Arrogant before/during/after writing this post.

I've been cold and hard at some point or another in all these camps. Though, in line with your words, my own theological views I hold now all shout out how humble I ought to be, and how thoroughly dependent on Christ I ought to be, and cause me to see continually that I am not where I should be, and only by grace I am what I am. I live so little according to the light that I do have, and I don't have the tears that should accompany my own confession. Let all the blame be at the feet of the sinner himself.

Paul Washer had said, "I've seen many Arminians live beyond their theology, but I've never seen a Calvinist live up to his."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Relztrah (Jan 19, 2019)

The link is not working for me.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 19, 2019)

Relztrah said:


> The link is not working for me.



It says the domain expired. So much the better.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2019)

My apologies if this comment is out of line, etc. But Mr. Maxwell strikes me as the sort of man who can seem to have a point at first, but at the same time something seems to be a bit off with what he is saying and or how he is saying it. I'm thinking about a recent video about Christian publishers. 

As for the kind of attitude he describes, you can probably find it at almost any seminary, or church, especially if they have a certain distinctive that they are known for. So if you go looking for it at TMS, WSCAL, GPTS, SBTS, Concordia, and several others, I'm quite sure you'll find it. It is easier to spot at some places than others, but no group has a monopoly on pride and smugness. And lest you (or he) think that cutting things too fine is the root problem and loosening up is the solution, you'll find it at more loosey goosey places as well: "I thank God I'm not like those TRs or dispensationalists or dumb dumb Baptist legalists" or whatever. I've lost count in the number of times I've had a pastor who thought I was on his "side" make disparaging comments about some teaching or group and in the process do little more than reveal his own ignorance and pride. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dachaser (Jan 19, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Well, he is baptist...


That at least is something good to be said about him!


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## Edward (Jan 19, 2019)

Joshua said:


> Note to Self: If the Bat visits CCRPC, do not acknowledge. Do not approach. Hug and greet and give thanks only in spirit.



The label of "Frozen Chosen" was hard earned. And we must strive to maintain it. I do tend to be a bit warmer. Expect a slight nod and a good morning when I greet you at the door of the church.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2019)

Edward said:


> The label of "Frozen Chosen" was hard earned. And we must strive to maintain it. I do tend to be a bit warmer. Expect a slight nod and a good morning when I greet you at the door of the church.


I'm just grateful to be spared the overly-exuberant church greeters at our kind of churches.


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## Dachaser (Jan 21, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Do some traditions or groups do better or worse at spiritual pride? And why?


We all have the tendency to display spiritual pride, but have seen it most evidenced in churches that would be promoting either the we are the true church only mentality, such as the Sda. Church of Rome, and some Independent Baptists churches. Also seen and found in those holding to them having some type of higher understanding about God or the scriptures, as in Word of faith, health and Wealth churches.


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## deleteduser99 (Jan 21, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I'm just grateful to be spared the overly-exuberant church greeters at our kind of churches.

Reactions: Like 1


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