# The contemplation of the wicked in heaven



## Afterthought

"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ.
What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them!
Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord."--Tertullian

A somewhat famous passage quoted by Nietzsche. I notice Jonathan Edwards teaches something similar. My question is, how should we respond to people who ask us about this sort of thing? That is, if someone asked you how can it be right or consistent with heaven's bliss that families be separated into heaven and hell for eterntiy, how would you respond? What if the person knew of the above, that the saints will rejoice in God's vengeance on those in Hell? I do realize that the person asking the question has a problem with understanding the sinfulness of sin and the justice of God, and there is probably little hope of them seeing this as anything but a horrible teaching of Christianity.

As a related few questions... How should we Christians use this doctrine? That is, we are supposed grieve over the wicked's death now (right?), so should this doctrine also cause us grief now, or at the very least be sobering to us? Or should this doctrine (now) give us the joy it seems to give Tertullian? Should we use it as a motive to console us now on earth, knowing that God will avenge the wicked later?


----------



## MW

I don't agree that the joy is in the actual suffering and pain of another. In a truly spiritual soul, in heartfelt submission to God, the joy arises from the glory of His justice, the removal of the destructive elements of His creation, and the restoration of peace and order. "The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works... Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord," Ps. 104:31-35.

We should understand the doctrine of endless punishment aright. The lost suffer everlasting torment from the perspective of their separation from God, who is everlasting joy. Those who are lost are eternally conscious of this loss and suffer under the punishment of their sins. But from the perspective of the saints, the existence of the lost is not an aspect of conscious recognition. To the saints it is as if they have been annihilated because the existence of sin, suffering, and sorrow is not a part of their eternal joy.


----------



## Afterthought

Thanks! Someone else noted a similar thing about the Tertullian quotation: that it seems to differ from people like Jonathan Edwards who taught that the joy comes not from the sufferings of those punished but rather such things as the glory of God's justice.



armourbearer said:


> But from the perspective of the saints, the existence of the lost is not an aspect of conscious recognition. To the saints it is as if they have been annihilated because the existence of sin, suffering, and sorrow is not a part of their eternal joy.


So to clarify, would you disagree with people like Edwards who taught that those in heaven could consciously "see" those in hell and rejoice?

"To see the majesty, and greatness, and terribleness of God, appearing in the destruction of his enemies, will cause the saints to rejoice; and when they shall see how great and terrible a being God is, how will they prize his favor! How will they rejoice that they are the objects of his love! How will they praise him the more joyfully, that he should choose them to be his children, and to live in the enjoyment of him!

It will occasion rejoicing in them, as they will have the greater sense their own happiness, by seeing the contrary misery. It is the nature of pleasure and pain, of happiness and misery, greatly to heighten the sense of each other. Thus the seeing of the happiness of others tends to make men more sensible of their own calamities; and the seeing of the calamities of others tends to heighten the sense of our own enjoyments.

When the saints in glory, therefore, shall see the doleful state of the damned, how will this heighten their sense of the blessedness of their own state, so exceedingly different from it! When they shall see how miserable others of their fellowcreatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity ; how will they rejoice!"


----------



## MW

I haven't read Edwards for quite some time so I may be out of the flow of his thought and not appreciate the point he is trying to make. As I read what is quoted, I would disagree with the concreteness of his sentiments. At the same time, if it is at all possible that he became definite and concrete in this way merely to make an abstract point, I can accept the abstract notion that the saints' happiness is heightened by the antithetical sorrow of the wicked, and that mercy is magnified in contemplation of the objects of God's wrath.

The fact is, we do not really know how to conceive of the eternal world in a concrete way. We have so much of it revealed to us here as serves the purposes of God's moral government in this world. As with the prophecies of the Old Testament, the ultimate realisation may be somewhat different from the concrete terms in which these things are presented to us.


----------



## a mere housewife

I think it would be very odd if the development of the Christian in sanctification on earth jarred so heavily against his sudden perfection in heaven. For we are taught, and are learning more as we grow in Christ, to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us, to pray for those who spitefully use us. Perhaps because we will be in a different administration of God's government of things we will (responsive as we will perfectly be to Him) suddenly enter so fully into judgment as to be able to rejoice in the shrieks of tormented souls. But as something one tries to trace in the development of our attitude toward our enemies here on earth, it seems only to be accounted for as a sort of suppressed rage.

In truth it seems a terrible thing to think of having to watch our loved ones suffer, and rejoice in it. I cannot imagine trying to comfort anyone in the face of such a knowledge: and I don't believe there is any such prevision of eternity given to us as 'knowledge'. God is our rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Those who know Him have tasted and seen that He is good. We trust Him with ourselves. And what is perhaps harder for many of us, we trust Him with our loved ones. Who else is there to trust? Who else is so good, and so righteous? His self revelation here, and our conformity to it, is so much of His humility and gentleness -- a God we can trust with every broken thing in our heart. This is our comfort; and in eternity when He dries all tears from our faces, it is hard for me to believe it will be by teaching us to laugh at the tears of those with whom He has taught us to weep.

I would not wish to absolutely contradict any great theologians (who am I?); but as someone who understands such a struggle, I tend to think a personal statement of having tasted and seen that He is good, and being blessed in trusting in Him, would be of more help to those who are troubled by this sort of statement.


----------



## Pergamum

In heaven we will rejoice over all of God's righteous judgments. Thus, we will rejoice over God's punishment of the wicked in hell. 

Moses and Israel sang at the Red Sea over their deliverance from the wicked and in Revelation the saints will rejoice over the fall of Babylon. How can we pray "Thy Kingdom Come" and then be less than happy when it actually does, in fact, come?


----------



## Afterthought

armourbearer said:


> The fact is, we do not really know how to conceive of the eternal world in a concrete way. We have so much of it revealed to us here as serves the purposes of God's moral government in this world. As with the prophecies of the Old Testament, the ultimate realisation may be somewhat different from the concrete terms in which these things are presented to us.


That's a good point. Though I wonder how the saints could live as though the lost did not exist without having a memory wipe? Considering that they are to rejoice in God's justice and will contemplate the objects of God's wrath, surely their memories will be intact and will remind them of who are those objects, even if they initially contemplated them in the abstract. But perhaps these questions are pushing things too far, considering that things may be different than how they are presented to us?

With respect to that possible interpretation of Edwards, I too am not sure and would have to reread what he wrote. It may be he was being graphic because the times he lived in required it, I would think.



a mere housewife said:


> I think it would be very odd if the development of the Christian in sanctification on earth jarred so heavily against his sudden perfection in heaven. For we are taught, and are learning more as we grow in Christ, to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us, to pray for those who spitefully use us. Perhaps because we will be in a different administration of God's government of things we will (responsive as we will perfectly be to Him) suddenly enter so fully into judgment as to be able to rejoice in the shrieks of tormented souls. But as something one tries to trace in the development of our attitude toward our enemies here on earth, it seems only to be accounted for as a sort of suppressed rage.


It does seem odd, indeed. Edwards and those like him explained the difference between now and then as the objects of God's wrath are currently also obects of God's mercy, but then, they will only be objects of God's wrath. But it still seems a bit odd. Perhaps the solution is to note it in the abstract rather than in concrete terms. Because of the difference between now and then, it also would seem odd to draw from this an attitude to our personal (Is there a different attitude to take towards God's enemies?) enemies on earth.



> I would not wish to absolutely contradict any great theologians (who am I?); but as someone who understands such a struggle, I tend to think a personal statement of having tasted and seen that He is good, and being blessed in trusting in Him, would be of more help to those who are troubled by this sort of statement.


Perhaps that is the best way to answer this question.




Pergamum said:


> In heaven we will rejoice over all of God's righteous judgments. Thus, we will rejoice over God's punishment of the wicked in hell.


True, but I would think it would be hard to explain it like that to an unbeliever who asked the question.


----------



## a mere housewife

Raymond, I suppose my feelings (and I would qualify that they are _feelings_: I am sure that whatever my God does will be right, and I will rejoice in His works -- I am sure His works will be perfect) about it are that the joy and rest and peace we are taught to find in the presence of our 'meek and lowly' Lord here do not lead me to think that the joy and peace of heaven will consist in a vision of the torment of others. It seems like working seven years for Rachel, and finding that one has married Leah. Surely in this life we are learning what it is like to love and live in His presence: surely there is some correlation to what we have experienced of Him here and what will be our peace and delight in His presence in heaven. I don't claim to know exactly what that works out to, but I will trust to find Him the same forever as I have found Him yesterday and today.


----------



## Afterthought

a mere housewife said:


> Surely in this life we are learning what it is like to love and live in His presence: surely there is some correlation to what we have experienced of Him here and what will be our peace and delight in His presence in heaven. I don't claim to know exactly what that works out to, but I will trust to find Him the same forever as I have found Him yesterday and today.


Again, some very good points! Thanks!


----------



## MW

Pergamum said:


> Moses and Israel sang at the Red Sea over their deliverance from the wicked and in Revelation the saints will rejoice over the fall of Babylon. How can we pray "Thy Kingdom Come" and then be less than happy when it actually does, in fact, come?



"judgment" and a "new state" are two different things, in the same way as Israel singing at the Red Sea and moving towards Sinai were two different things. judgment by its very nature is decisive for a new state of affairs, but the new state of affairs obviously moves beyond the point of judgment and enjoys that new condition for which the judgment was given.


----------



## a mere housewife

Rev. Winzer, I was wondering if what you have put forward of the new state of affairs might be supported by texts like Psalm 37 (cross referenced with Christ's words in Matthew 5 about the meek, and inheriting the earth)? Certainly there is a judgment (as in verse 34); but then one searches diligently and the wicked cannot be found (vs. 36)?


----------



## MW

a mere housewife said:


> Rev. Winzer, I was wondering if what you have put forward of the new state of affairs might be supported by texts like Psalm 37 (cross referenced with Christ's words in Matthew 5 about the meek, and inheriting the earth)? Certainly there is a judgment (as in verse 34); but then one searches diligently and the wicked cannot be found (vs. 36)?



Mrs Zartman, yes, that is a pertinent point in the context. "Mark thou the perfect" and "but those men that transgressors are" are certainly given for our consideration now, as we struggle with the choice of whom to follow; but once the judgment is passed and we have come to our end it would appear that the consideration has served its purpose.


----------



## Afterthought

Those are some very good points! There was something I found from Reformed Theological Seminary which tried to argue Edwards' point and show that others (like Thomas Aquinas and various puritans) also held the view. This thread is making me think I'll have to look at it more carefully when I get time (it's over a hundred pages). But anyway, if we deny the position of people like Edwards, it seems most of the force of the problem vanishes, though there's still the sticky issue of memory and the knowledge such brings. Perhaps though that is an unnecessary complication for something we do not know a whole lot about anyway.


----------



## Pergamum

> "Revelation 14:10-11
> 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and
> brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment will go up for ever and ever..."



And

From Augustine's City of God:


> [Commenting on Isaiah 66:24] But in what way shall the good go out to see the
> punishment of the wicked? Are they to leave their happy abodes by a bodily movement,
> and proceed to the places of punishment, so as to witness the torments of the wicked in
> their bodily presence? Certainly not; but they shall go out by knowledge…For those who
> shall be in torment shall not know what is going on within the joy of the Lord; but they
> who shall enter into that joy shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness.
> Therefore it is said, "They shall go out," because they shall know what is done by those
> who are without. For if the prophets were able to know things that had not yet happened,
> by means of that indwelling of God in their minds, limited though it was, shall not the
> immortal saints know things that have already happened, when God shall be all in all?6



Thomas Aquinas:



> Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their
> beatitude…Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful
> to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to
> see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.9



Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, Supplementum Tertia Partis, Question 94, Article 1.


And again,



> That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant
> thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them







> A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices
> in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked.
> Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the
> saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of
> Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the
> Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the
> blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.


Summa Theologica, Question 92, Article 3.


Jonathan Edwards:


> Every time they look upon the damned, it will excite in them a lively and admiring
> sense of the grace of God…The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor
> of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven.


Jonathan Edwards, “The Eternity of Hell Torments,” The Wrath of Almighty God. (Morgan,
PA: Soli Deo Gloria Publications, 1996), 356-7.





> The glory of God is the greatest good. It is that which is the chief end of the creation. It
> is of greater importance than anything else. But this one way wherein God will glorify
> himself, as in the eternal destruction of ungodly men, he will glorify his justice. Therein
> he will appear as a just governor of the world. The vindictive justice of God will appear
> strict, exact, awful, and terrible, and therefore glorious.



Jonathan Edwards, “The Eternity of Hell Torments,” The Wrath of Almighty God. (Morgan,
PA: Soli Deo Gloria Publications, 1996), 356-7.






> It will be an occasion of their rejoicing, as the glory of God will appear in it. The
> glory of God appears in all his works: and therefore there is no work of God which the
> saints in glory shall behold and contemplate but what will be an occasion of rejoicing to
> them. God glorifies himself in the eternal damnation of the ungodly men. God glorifies
> himself in all that he doth; but he glorifies himself principally in his eternal disposal of
> his intelligent creatures: some are appointed to everlasting life, and others left to
> everlasting death.



Jonathan Edwards, “The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous,” The Wrath of
Almighty God. (Morgan, PA: Soli Deo Gloria, 1996), 373.




> When they [the saints in heaven] shall see the smoke of their torment [the damned],
> and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries,
> and consider that they in the meantime are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be
> in it to all eternity; how will they rejoice!


Edwards, 373.



Peter Lombard:


> Both the good shall see the wicked and the wicked the good until the judgment.
> After the judgment the good will indeed see the wicked but not the wicked the
> good…The elect will behold the torture of the impious and as they see them they will
> not grieve. Their minds will be sated with joy as they gaze on the unspeakable anguish
> of the impious, returning thanks for their own freedom.


Also, note Peter Lombard Sent. Lib. Iv., quoted in Lyman Abbott, et. al., That Unknown
Country (Springfield, Massachusetts: C.A. Nichols & Co., Publishers, 1888), 48.


Samuel Hopkins:


> It has already been observed and shown how well suited and necessary endless
> punishment is, to make a full and most glorious display of the divine character, in the
> view of the blessed…The smoke of their torment shall ascend in the sight of the blessed
> forever and ever, and serve as a most clear glass, always before their eyes, to give them
> a constant bright and most affecting view of all these. And all this display of the divine
> character and glory will be in favor of the redeemed, and most entertaining, and give
> the highest pleasure to all who love God, and raise their happiness to ineffable heights,
> whose felicity consists summarily in the knowledge and enjoyment of God.



Samuel Hopkins Works (p. 459), quoted in Lymann Abbott, et. al., That Unknown Country(
Springfield Massachussetts: C.A. Nichols & Co., Publishers, 1888), 56.




John Gill:



> Of the company of angels and saints: they will be tormented in the presence of
> the angels, without receiving any benefit by them, or relief from them: they will be
> sensible of the happiness of the saints, which will aggravate their misery; they will not
> be able to come at them, and share with them in their bliss; nor have the least degree of
> consolation from them; the rich man saw Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but could
> not obtain one dip of the tip of his finger in water to cool his tongue…yea, they will not
> have the least pity shown them by God, angels or men; God will mock at their
> destruction; angels will applaud his righteous judgment; and the holy apostles and
> prophets, and all the saints, will rejoice over them, as they will over Babylon, and at her
> destruction, because of the justice of God being glorified by it.


John Gills, Body of Doctrinal Divinity (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1951),
682-3.



Richard Baxter:


> The principal author of hell-torments is God himself. As it was no less than God
> whom sinners had offended, so it is no less than God who will punish them for their
> offences. He hath prepared those torments for his enemies. His continued anger will
> still be devouring them. His breath of indignation will kindle the flames. His wrath will
> be an intolerable burden to their souls…Those eyes [of the damned] which were wont
> to be delighted with curious sights, must then see nothing but what shall terrify them!
> an angry God above them, with those saints whom they scorned enjoying the glory
> which they have lost; and about them will be only devils and damned souls.


Richard Baxter, The Saint’s Everlasting Rest (Grand Rapids: Christian Classics Ethereal Library,
January 14, 2003) Chap. V.



Thomas Watson:


> The saints will not pity them. They persecuted them upon earth, therefore they will
> rejoice to see God's justice executed on them. 'The righteous shall rejoice when he sees
> the vengeance.' Psa 58: 10.


Thomas Watson, The Ten Commandments (London: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1965), 196.




Isaac Watts:


> What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
> When they in glory dwell,
> To see the sinner as he rolls,
> In quenchless flames of hell.




Matthew Henry on Isaiah 66:


> As it will aggravate the miseries of the damned to see others in the kingdom of
> heaven and themselves thrust out (Luke 13:28), so it will illustrate the joys and glories
> of the blessed to see what becomes of those that died in their transgression.
> 
> 
> It will elevate their praises to think that they were themselves as brands plucked
> out of that burning. To the honour of that free grace which thus distinguished them let
> the redeemed of the Lord with all humility, and not without a holy trembling, sing their
> triumphant songs.








M'Cheyne:



> However much the people of God weep over the wicked now, yet it can be shown that
> in heaven the torment of the wicked will be no matter of grief to the redeemed..."
> 
> “…although we cannot tell how it is, that hell will be within sight of heaven,
> they will be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels and in
> the presence of the Lamb. But, brethren, you know quite well that if the eternal misery
> of the damned was to be an occasion of sorrow to the redeemed, it would not be; for we
> are told, in one of the Psalms, 'In thy presence is fulness of joy, and at thy right hand are
> pleasures for evermore' (Psalm 16:11).



Robert Murray M'Cheyne, “The Eternal Torment of the Wicked – Matter of Eternal Song
to the Redeemed,” Feb 2004, http://www.txdirect.net/~tgarner/mccheyne9.htm (Dec 13, 1998).


-
-

Some weird guy from the PB here even wrote a book defending Edwards' view: Seeing Hell - Trevor Christian Johnson - Google Books


----------



## Afterthought

Pergamum said:


> Some weird guy from the PB here even wrote a book defending Edwards' view


**blinks twice and compares authors** Hah! What do you know? That was actually the work I found at RTS, though seemingly about 50 pages shorter.


----------



## Peairtach

Quite a heavy and mysterious subject which I haven't studied closely.

Even in this life there is a difference between a delight in justice which is part of the restored image of God, and a delight in watching someone suffer which could be sadistic, and therefore immoral 



> then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense.Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight.(Deut 25:2-3)


----------



## Don Kistler

This viewpoint was not unique to Edwards by any stretch of the imagination. And it is correct that Edwards did not think that the suffering of the wicked was what brought joy, but that God was finally vindicated by His expression of holiness in punishing His (and our) enemies.

Even in Handel's "Messiah," the Hallelujah Chorus, that is normally sung at Christmas and at Easter in honor of the resurrection, is actually placed in that musical masterpiece at the point when God punishes His enemies in hell and all of heaven sings "hallelujah."

Obviously Edwards did not suggest that perfectly glorified/sanctified saints in heaven will take a morbid, sinful pleasure in seeing people "finally get what's coming to them," but that those glorified/sanctified saints will be free from any maudlin emotionalism and will be so in love with God that they rejoice in His victory over sin and sinners.

Edwards did believe, as did so many others, such as John Bunyan, that the saints in heaven can see the damned in hell, and the damned in hell can see the saints in heaven, from the story in Luke 16 (it is never called a parable, so Edwards took it literally). And since we know there is no crying or tears in heaven, it must be a source of joy to them regarding what they see.

That is not an exhaustive response by any means, but perhaps a bit of explanation from someone who has read all the sermons being mentioned.


----------



## Pergamum

I would also assert that I do not think the saints will be struck by any sort of "heavenly amnesia" once they hit glory. The knowledge will remain even though the pain will be gone and much better things to think about will abound.


----------



## rbcbob

The day of Judgment, as I understand it will be of limited duration. In that gathering the Lord God will perfectly mete out the precise judgment for each non-elect angel and non-elect man. At that sentencing the redeemed will behold with quiescence the judgment of God upon His enemies and the vindication of His children. But this scene will be succeeded by another which is of unlimited duration.



*



1Co 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 

1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 

Psalm 149:9 To execute on them the written judgment-- This honor have all His saints. Praise the LORD!

Click to expand...

*
The conclusion of that judgment scene will be succeeded by everlasting joy in the presence of God in the new heavens and the new earth.


----------



## Pergamum

Bob, 

I do not believe that after this Judgment Day the saints will be afflicted with amnesia or denied the sight of hell as a testimony of God's justice.


----------



## rbcbob

Pergamum said:


> Bob,
> 
> I do not believe that after this Judgment Day the saints will be afflicted with amnesia or denied the sight of hell as a testimony of God's justice.



Trevor, on what basis do you make this assertion? It is clear that the saints in heaven remember the deeds of the wicked at this time.



> Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"



But I know of no passage which tells us that such memories will continue in the new heavens and new earth. On the contrary Scripture tells us:



> Revelation 21:4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."


----------



## Pergamum

Scripture tells of the deeds and the fate of the wicked. Will saints forget their bibles, which contain many accounts of judgment and much on hell, when they get to the new heavens and new earth? 

If we see the pierced Jesus in heaven, are we going to be ignorant as to how He got those wounds?


----------



## rbcbob

I'd be more inclined to consider your position if you would provide Scripture.


----------



## Pergamum

*About the phrase "not remembering the former things":*



> While the sorrow of a thing may be hid from the eyes of the saints, the thing itself
> may not be hid. It cannot be denied that the saints will retain memory and knowledge of
> at least some events of earthly existence, though any pain caused by this knowledge will
> be absent.
> 
> Isaiah 65 cannot be paraphrased as, “The saints will not remember anything of the
> earth”. Instead, this is taken in the same light as Jeremiah 31:34, which speaks of God
> remembering sins no longer. Omniscient God will retain knowledge of every individual
> sin of every person who has ever existed, yet, for the sake of Christ, the “bite” and
> “sting” will be taken from that knowledge. God puts these things “out of his
> consciousness” and His wrath is not ever focused on these things.150
> The same will be true of the saints. The memories may persist, but the “sting” will
> be removed.




and



> In heaven, loved ones known in this life will be known and recognized...
> 
> The martyrs of the book of Revelation, likewise, are aware that they were slain for the Word and for the
> testimony they held. Regarding hell, her smoke will “rise up forever and ever,” in the
> awareness and sight of the saved. The saints will take a great deal of knowledge with
> them out of this world to the next, which will be further expanded and purified still.
> 
> There will be no “heavenly amnesia.”



Augustine:




> The soul, then, shall have an intellectual remembrance of its past ills; but, so far as
> regards sensible experience, they shall be quite forgotten. For a skillful physician
> knows, indeed, professionally almost all diseases; but experimentally he is ignorant of a
> great number which he himself has never suffered from. As, therefore, there are two
> ways of knowing evil things -- one by mental insight, the other by sensible experience,
> for it is one thing to understand all vices by the wisdom of a cultivated mind, another to
> understand them by the foolishness of an abandoned life -- so also there are two ways of
> forgetting evils.
> For a well-instructed and learned man forgets them one way, and he who has
> experimentally suffered from them forgets them another -- the former by neglecting
> what he has learned, the latter by escaping what he has suffered. And in this latter way
> the saints shall forget their past ills, for they shall have so thoroughly escaped them all,
> that they shall be quite blotted out of their experience. But their intellectual knowledge,
> which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted not only with their own past woes, but
> with the eternal sufferings of the lost. For if they were not to know that they had been
> miserable, how could they, as the Psalmist says, for ever sing the mercies of God?


Augustine City of God 22.30.


To assert that the Redeemed in heaven (knowledgeable of Scripture in their earthly lives) would forget the sins of the patriarchs is to assert that those on earth know Scripture better than the glorified saints. It would imply that Moses, for example, had
forgotten the words in which he recorded his own slaying of the Egyptian foreman. It would imply that Paul would forget about his own zeal in persecuting the church, which zeal is also recorded by his own hand. 

Will these writers of Scripture forget their very
own writings? 

Those in heaven must therefore have an extensive knowledge of pain, sin, suffering and death while residing in a state of joy with God.


----------



## Pergamum

> Matthew McMahon contends:
> 
> "Hell makes heaven more sweet for the saint. How sweet is the prospect of heaven to
> you? Those in heaven gaze over to that place of wrath and torment and they rejoice over
> the lamb of God all the more."
> 
> The words of Samuel Hopkins again, for emphasis:
> 
> "The smoke of their torment shall ascend up in the sight of the blessed…This display
> of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God…Should the fire
> of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of
> heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed."
> 
> Alcorn, “Awareness in Heaven of Events on Earth?” December 2003, .htpp:// Official website of author Randy Alcorn - Eternal Perspective Ministries.
> 
> Matthew McMahon, “Hell’s Terror,” Feb. 2004, A Puritan's Mind (n.d.).
> 
> Works of Samuel Hopkins, D.D., pages 457-8, quoted in Lymann Abott, et. al, 229.




also,



> “Hell will be within the very sight of heaven! The wicked will be cast into hell before
> the eyes of the redeemed! In that awesome day pastors and congregations will stand
> face to face before the bar of God and witness one another's condemnation or acquittal.
> Children shall stand to witness the condemnation or acquittal of their parents. Husbands
> and wives shall witness one another's condemnation or acquittal. And it will be no
> matter of grief to the righteous to see the wicked condemned. Our tears will be over.
> Our sorrows will be past. We will see them condemned. We will see the terror on their
> faces. We will hear their screams and cries of agony. Yet, we will not shed a tear. (Rev.
> 21:4). Indeed, we will give our vote that you be condemned. And when you are cast
> into hell, we will shout "Amen! Alleluia!" (Ps. 91:7-8).”
> 
> Dan Fortner, “Sermon on Rev 19:1-6.” Grace Church sermon, Danville, Kentucky, 20
> December 1993, Typewritten.






> Since God cannot be made happier, being ever and infinitely blessed, hell was made,
> not for him but for heaven.
> 
> Page 34 of Gerstner, John, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell. Morgan, PA: Soli Deo Gloria Publications, 1998.






> It will not only be no grief, but will be matter of praise. We will sing, 'Hallelujah' when
> the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever.
> 
> Robert Murray M'Cheyne, “The Eternal Torment of the Wicked – Matter of Eternal Song
> to the Redeemed,” Feb 2004, http://www.txdirect.net/~tgarner/mccheyne9.htm (Dec 13, 1998).




---------- Post added at 02:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 AM ----------




> “The destruction of Babylon will be a cause for great joy! (v. 20). But why
> are God’s saints called upon to rejoice when the wicked are damned? This joy is not at
> all a vindictive joy over the torments of personal enemies. It is a righteous agreement
> with God. It is God’s saints taking sides with God, vindicating him in his justice, and
> saying, "Amen," to all that he does, because of their hearts’ agreement with him (Psa.
> 139:21-22). God’s saints will rejoice when God’s enemies are destroyed, because God’s
> name and honor will then be vindicated.”
> 
> Dan Fortner, “Sermon on Rev 18:1-26.” Grace Church sermon, Danville, Kentucky, 1993,
> Typewritten. Boldface is in the original.






> We will see and understand better the perfect justice of God, and we shall glorify
> Him for every detail of the outworking of His eternal plan-including His dealings with
> the wicked. The final verses of Isaiah’s prophecy indicate that the destruction of the
> wicked will ultimately be something for which we will worship God (Isa. 66:22-24).
> The existence of hell will not dim the glory of heaven or taint its bliss in the least.
> 
> Page 98 of MacArthur, John, Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1996.







> Isaiah 66:24:
> 
> And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed
> against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they
> shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
> 
> 
> Matthew Henry considers that this prophecy not only speaks of a local and
> historical fulfillment, but also a spiritual and eternal fulfillment:
> 
> "Now this [judgment on the wicked] is sometimes accomplished in temporal
> judgments, and perhaps never nearer the letter than in the destruction of Jerusalem and
> the Jewish nation by the Romans…It may refer likewise to the spiritual judgments that
> came upon the unbelieving Jews…But our Saviour applies it to the everlasting misery
> and torment of impenitent sinners in the future state, where their worm dies not, and
> their fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44)."
> 
> After this, Henry makes a point relevant to this thesis, affirming that the righteous
> shall behold the wicked in hell:
> 
> "It will illustrate the joys and glories of the blessed to see what becomes of those
> that died in their transgression, and it will elevate their praises to think that they were
> themselves as brands plucked out of that burning."
> 
> -
> 
> This view is also echoed in John Gill’s commentary:
> 
> "For their worm shall not die …and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh; the true
> worshippers of God, Isaiah 66:23 to whom their carcasses will be loathsome, when they
> look upon them; and their souls abominable, because of their wicked actions; and who
> cannot but applaud the justice of God in their condemnation; and admire distinguishing
> grace and mercy, that has preserved them from the like ruin and destruction."
> 
> 
> Christ utilizes Isaiah 66:24 three times in Mark 9:43-48: “The worm dieth not
> and the fire is not quenched,” and applies this phrase each time to the eternal state of hell.






> Luke 13:28:
> There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac,
> and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.



and
Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)

---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------




> “The destruction of Babylon will be a cause for great joy! (v. 20). But why
> are God’s saints called upon to rejoice when the wicked are damned? This joy is not at
> all a vindictive joy over the torments of personal enemies. It is a righteous agreement
> with God. It is God’s saints taking sides with God, vindicating him in his justice, and
> saying, "Amen," to all that he does, because of their hearts’ agreement with him (Psa.
> 139:21-22). God’s saints will rejoice when God’s enemies are destroyed, because God’s
> name and honor will then be vindicated.”
> 
> Dan Fortner, “Sermon on Rev 18:1-26.” Grace Church sermon, Danville, Kentucky, 1993,
> Typewritten. Boldface is in the original.






> We will see and understand better the perfect justice of God, and we shall glorify
> Him for every detail of the outworking of His eternal plan-including His dealings with
> the wicked. The final verses of Isaiah’s prophecy indicate that the destruction of the
> wicked will ultimately be something for which we will worship God (Isa. 66:22-24).
> The existence of hell will not dim the glory of heaven or taint its bliss in the least.
> 
> Page 98 of MacArthur, John, Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1996.







> Isaiah 66:24:
> 
> And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed
> against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they
> shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
> 
> 
> Matthew Henry considers that this prophecy not only speaks of a local and
> historical fulfillment, but also a spiritual and eternal fulfillment:
> 
> "Now this [judgment on the wicked] is sometimes accomplished in temporal
> judgments, and perhaps never nearer the letter than in the destruction of Jerusalem and
> the Jewish nation by the Romans…It may refer likewise to the spiritual judgments that
> came upon the unbelieving Jews…But our Saviour applies it to the everlasting misery
> and torment of impenitent sinners in the future state, where their worm dies not, and
> their fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44)."
> 
> After this, Henry makes a point relevant to this thesis, affirming that the righteous
> shall behold the wicked in hell:
> 
> "It will illustrate the joys and glories of the blessed to see what becomes of those
> that died in their transgression, and it will elevate their praises to think that they were
> themselves as brands plucked out of that burning."
> 
> -
> 
> This view is also echoed in John Gill’s commentary:
> 
> "For their worm shall not die …and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh; the true
> worshippers of God, Isaiah 66:23 to whom their carcasses will be loathsome, when they
> look upon them; and their souls abominable, because of their wicked actions; and who
> cannot but applaud the justice of God in their condemnation; and admire distinguishing
> grace and mercy, that has preserved them from the like ruin and destruction."
> 
> 
> Christ utilizes Isaiah 66:24 three times in Mark 9:43-48: “The worm dieth not
> and the fire is not quenched,” and applies this phrase each time to the eternal state of hell.






> Luke 13:28:
> There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac,
> and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.



and
Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)


----------



## Pergamum

> Psalm 91:8:
> Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
> 
> Psalm 37:34:
> Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when
> the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
> 
> Psalm 58:10:
> The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the
> blood of the wicked.



and




> Revelation 18:20; 19:3:
> Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged
> you on her….And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.



and



> Revelation 14:10:
> 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without
> mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and
> brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



Concerning Rev 14, here are some comments:




> Grant Osborne
> states:
> In Luke 12:9 Jesus says, He who disowns me before people will be disowned before
> the angels of God. Both in Luke and here there is the Jewish idea of angels at the
> heavenly court participating not only in worship but also in judgment…this also
> parallels the frequent theme in Jewish writings that the wicked in hell would be able to
> see the joy and glory of the righteous (1 Enoch 48.9; 108.14-15; 2 Esdr. [4 Ezra] 7:36-
> 38; 2 Bar. 30.4; 51.5-6; Wis.5:1-5), a punishment that would make their torment all the
> worse.
> 
> Of course, the idea of the saints present at this judgment is not mentioned here, but the
> participation of the saints is emphasized in Rev. 2:27; 17:14; 20:4.
> 
> Grant Osborne, Revelation. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, 2002), 541.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the
> holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.* Here is the
> ultimate meaning of the cup of God’s wrath. The lake of fire and brimstone is pictured
> as the final place of punishment of the beast and the false prophet, as well as all whose
> names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life…We cannot understand all that
> is meant in the statement that the wicked will be punished “in the presence of the holy
> angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” Jesus himself had said that those who deny
> him would be denied before the presence of God and the angels (Mark 8:38; Luke
> 12:9). Jewish apocalyptic contains a note that is lacking in the Revelation, that the
> wicked will be punished in the presence of the saints (Enoch 48:9).
> 
> George Eldon Ladd. A Commentary on the Revelation of John (Grand Rapids, Michigan:
> William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1972), 197.




---------- Post added at 03:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 AM ----------

Revelation 14:10 and Jewish Apocryphal writings:


> John’s words concerning heaven’s inhabitants attending the spectacle of the
> punishment of the damned is not a new doctrine. He was merely expressing a doctrine in
> close accord with Jewish apocalyptic writings. John, by the inclusion of his words into
> canonical writ, gives credence to this belief that the saints will behold hell.
> G.K. Beale outlines these Jewish writings.
> 
> The wicked see the reward of the
> righteous, while being punished in their presence:
> 
> So I En. 108:14-15; Wis. 5:1-5; 2 Bar. 51:5-6; 4 Ezra 7:85; Midr. Pss. 23.7; Misr.
> Rb. Lev. 32.1; Midr. Rab. Eccl. 7.14. The apocalyptic belief was that the wicked would
> be punished, often by fire, in the presence of the righteous (I En. 48:9; 62:12; 108:14-
> 15; Wis. 5:1-14; 4 Ezra 7:93; Targ. Isa. 33:17) forever (Isa. 66:22-24; I En. 27:2-3;cf. I
> En. 21). Even this belief did not underscore gleeful revenge but drew attention to the
> truth formerly denied by the unrighteous.109
> 
> G.K. Beale, The Book of Revelation. The New International Greek Testament Commentary
> (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1999), 760.








> Extra-Biblical Jewish writings:
> 
> 1st Enoch 27:3
> Here shall they be gathered together, and here shall be their place of judgment. In the
> last days there shall be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgment in the presence
> of the righteous for ever: here shall the merciful bless the Lord of glory, the Eternal
> King.
> 
> 1st Enoch, chapter 48
> 9I will cast them like hay into the fire, and like lead into the water. Thus shall they burn
> in the presence of the righteous, and sink in the presence of the holy; nor shall a tenth
> part of them be found.
> 10But in the day of their trouble, the world shall obtain tranquillity.
> 11In his presence shall they fall, and not be raised up again; nor shall there be any one to
> take them out of his hands, and to lift them up: for they have denied
> 
> 
> Rabbinical Writings:
> Pesikta Rabbati 52:3
> Why did the Holy Blessed One create Gehenna (Hell) and the Garden of Eden?
> So that one can behold the other. How much space is between them? R. Yohanan
> said; The breadth of a wall. R. Hanina said; The breadth of a hand. But the
> Rabbis said; The two are right up against each other.


----------



## John Bunyan

^^^Wow! This post must be the Ultimamate Quoting Championship!


----------



## Pergamum

John, 

You joined the board too late. There was once the mythical era of the Puritanboard Librarian, who could find 100 quotes for any subject and who was a great blessing by his research.


----------



## rbcbob

Pergamum said:


> About the phrase "not remembering the former things":
> 
> 
> While the sorrow of a thing may be hid from the eyes of the saints, the thing itself
> may not be hid. It cannot be denied that the saints will retain memory and knowledge of
> at least some events of earthly existence, though any pain caused by this knowledge will
> be absent.
> 
> Isaiah 65 cannot be paraphrased as, “The saints will not remember anything of the
> earth”. Instead, this is taken in the same light as Jeremiah 31:34, which speaks of God
> remembering sins no longer. Omniscient God will retain knowledge of every individual
> sin of every person who has ever existed, yet, for the sake of Christ, the “bite” and
> “sting” will be taken from that knowledge. God puts these things “out of his
> consciousness” and His wrath is not ever focused on these things.150
> The same will be true of the saints. The memories may persist, but the “sting” will
> be removed.
> 
> and
> 
> 
> In heaven, loved ones known in this life will be known and recognized...
> 
> The martyrs of the book of Revelation, likewise, are aware that they were slain for the Word and for the
> testimony they held. Regarding hell, her smoke will “rise up forever and ever,” in the
> awareness and sight of the saved. The saints will take a great deal of knowledge with
> them out of this world to the next, which will be further expanded and purified still.
> 
> There will be no “heavenly amnesia.”



Trevor,
You cut and pasted quite a flood of quotes. These first ones don't even list whose thoughts they belong to. When I asked for Scripture I thought that you would select a verse on your own, exegete it and explain how it serves your purpose. If you expect me to wade through this mass of cut and paste you will be disappointed.


----------



## Pergamum

Bob;

The first cut and paste was from your previous statement seeming to assert that the saints forget about their earthly lives once in glory, which is false. There is no heavenly amnesia.

This is followed by quotes by various authors, even reformed authors, proving that many solid theologians also affirmed these same tenets (that the saints know of hell, maybe even see it, and are not grieved by it but, instead, rejoice over it). 

Following that are various verses which may show the possibility/probably of the truth of this doctrine followed by some commentary on some of those verses given by the likes of Ladd, MacArthur, etc.

-
First, you complain of lack of info - then you complain that I have given too much.


----------



## MW

Pergamum, I congratulate you on a well presented paper. While I don't agree with the conclusions I can see that much work has gone into it.

Just an observation, but this is a "discussion" board. It is quite legitimate for Bob to ask you to do more than present quotations and to give some kind of a thought-for-thought response.

Here are some thoughts on what you have presented. Sorry for any interruption.

On your quotations citing Scripture, Augustine's understanding of the passages is doubtful. Calvin's comment on Isa. 66:24 is a pointed criticism: "We must not here attempt to obtain subtle and ingenious interpretations; for he simply informs those who shall be adopted into the Church that they shall see, all around them, the dreadful vengeance of God." The amillennial understanding of this passage is simply that the blessed future which shall be consummated in heaven has already burst on the scene of history with the coming of Christ. Hence there is no "living detail" in the passage which can be confined to an heavenly state.

I think your quotations demonstrate that you have a position which is advocated in the history of the church. This "position," however, is undeveloped, and in some aspects is very vague. By "undeveloped" I mean that there is little to no discussion, from what I can observe, in the Systematic theologies on this point. By "vague" I mean that sometimes the authors are jumping from the concept of "judgment" to "eternal state" without exegetical support. I have great esteem for M'Cheyne, but his methodology is not always well considered. His sermon in Basket of Fragments draws a doctrinal point on the eternal state from a point relating to "when Antichrist is destroyed." This is not a sound way to move from text to theology. I can't comment on the other quotations as I don't think it is safe to slice up an author's presentation, but it could well be that a homiletical context can account for many of these statements.

Finally, I think your "amnesia" comments are a little misplaced. The knowledge of the saints will be transformed. All things will be new. I think you have a valid point that there will be an historical progression such that there is no disjunction in what is known. But the subject knowing will be entirely changed. That must be taken into consideration. Likewise, the fact that the saints' knowledge will not be omniscient, needs to be understood and applied.

Blessings!


----------



## Peairtach

I think it's rather poor of Edwards to argue his position from the saints rejoicing over the destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18, which Babylon has been seen variously as the Roman Empire, the apostate Church, or the ungodly world system, or other possibilities.


----------



## Pergamum

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum, I congratulate you on a well presented paper. While I don't agree with the conclusions I can see that much work has gone into it.
> 
> Just an observation, but this is a "discussion" board. It is quite legitimate for Bob to ask you to do more than present quotations and to give some kind of a thought-for-thought response.
> 
> Here are some thoughts on what you have presented. Sorry for any interruption.
> 
> On your quotations citing Scripture, Augustine's understanding of the passages is doubtful. Calvin's comment on Isa. 66:24 is a pointed criticism: "We must not here attempt to obtain subtle and ingenious interpretations; for he simply informs those who shall be adopted into the Church that they shall see, all around them, the dreadful vengeance of God." The amillennial understanding of this passage is simply that the blessed future which shall be consummated in heaven has already burst on the scene of history with the coming of Christ. Hence there is no "living detail" in the passage which can be confined to an heavenly state.
> 
> I think your quotations demonstrate that you have a position which is advocated in the history of the church. This "position," however, is undeveloped, and in some aspects is very vague. By "undeveloped" I mean that there is little to no discussion, from what I can observe, in the Systematic theologies on this point. By "vague" I mean that sometimes the authors are jumping from the concept of "judgment" to "eternal state" without exegetical support. I have great esteem for M'Cheyne, but his methodology is not always well considered. His sermon in Basket of Fragments draws a doctrinal point on the eternal state from a point relating to "when Antichrist is destroyed." This is not a sound way to move from text to theology. I can't comment on the other quotations as I don't think it is safe to slice up an author's presentation, but it could well be that a homiletical context can account for many of these statements.
> 
> Finally, I think your "amnesia" comments are a little misplaced. The knowledge of the saints will be transformed. All things will be new. I think you have a valid point that there will be an historical progression such that there is no disjunction in what is known. But the subject knowing will be entirely changed. That must be taken into consideration. Likewise, the fact that the saints' knowledge will not be omniscient, needs to be understood and applied.
> 
> Blessings!



Rev. Winzer:


Yes, I think we are mostly agreed.



> I think your quotations demonstrate that you have a position which is advocated in the history of the church. This "position," however, is undeveloped, and in some aspects is very vague.



I think we can only say that some things are possible or probable, since more Scriptural data is not given. 

I believe we can be strongly assured that we will still be cognizant of at least some past history on the earth, even of sin. 

As in the Augustine quotes, this will not be a "forgetting" of the events but an erasure of the pain associated with these events. The knowlede of the saints being transformed does not mean that this knowledge will be taken from them. 

So, the saints WILL be able to know of the wicked in hell, but this will not trouble them. This does not mean that their knowledge will be exhaustive.

You stated,



> I think you have a valid point that there will be an historical progression such that there is no disjunction in what is known. But the subject knowing will be entirely changed.



Yes, I agree. This change in the knower will mean that even God's judgments will appear most glorious in such a way that whatever knowledge we will have of the wicked in hell, it will be an occasion for us to praise God for His justice and will not be an occasion for grief (for grief woudl mean disagreement with God's righteous judgments).

Obviously, we cannot know as much on this subject as others, but there is enough evidence to affirm that the saints in heaven will know of hell and the fate of the wicked, and will not be troubled by it. In our imperfect earthly lives we know of hell and we know even of individuals in hell at this moment, such as Judas and Pharoah. 

In heaven, it does not appear that we will forget these bible facts but that our knowledge will, rather, be enlarged and broadened. We can quibble on the details, but the bible seems clear that the saints in heaven will know of hell and this knowledge will not trouble them.


----------



## MW

Pergamum said:


> In heaven, it does not appear that we will forget these bible facts but that our knowledge will, rather, be enlarged and broadened. We can quibble on the details, but the bible seems clear that the saints in heaven will know of hell and this knowledge will not trouble them.



That sounds to me like a far different proposition than the one which appears in some of the quotations, in which the saints are regarded as observing the miseries of the wicked in hell and praising God for the just judgements that are executed in that suffering and pain.


----------



## Pergamum

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> In heaven, it does not appear that we will forget these bible facts but that our knowledge will, rather, be enlarged and broadened. We can quibble on the details, but the bible seems clear that the saints in heaven will know of hell and this knowledge will not trouble them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds to me like a far different proposition than the one which appears in some of the quotations, in which the saints are regarded as observing the miseries of the wicked in hell and praising God for the just judgements that are executed in that suffering and pain.
Click to expand...



I think it is certain that we will know something of the judgment of God in heaven. Of course, such knowledge will not be exhaustive.

I think it also probable that we will know a great deal. I think it is possible that we will see hell. And I think that if these things are true, that such a contemplation will cause us to praise God, not for the pain of the wicked but for the delight all saints have in the justice of God.

The Tertullian quote seems to make it appear as if the saints will delight over the pain of the wicked. But, I do think the saints will rejoice over the sight of hell because God is righteous and all His judgments right.


Aquinas says the following about the nature of this joy at which the saints will feel at the contemplation of the wicked in hell:



> A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices
> in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked.
> Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the
> saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of
> Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the
> Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the
> blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.


Summa Theologica, Question 92, Article 3.



We are to pity the wicked in this life while there is hope. But, as we think of the wicked while we are in heaven, to be sad at the fate of those in hell would mean to disagree with God's righteous judgments and such thing would be a sin. Therefore, the saints in heaven rejoice even over hell.

The worship of God would seem to occupy all of our thoughts in the new heaven and new earth, but I do not see how praising God for His justice executed on sinners would interrupt but would, rather, enhance the glory of God in all of His attributes.


----------



## rbcbob

Pergamum said:


> *I think *it also *probable* that we will know a great deal. *I think* it is *possible* that we will see hell. And *I think that if these things are true*, that such a contemplation will cause us to praise God, not for the pain of the wicked but for the delight all saints have in the justice of God



Sorry Trevor, I think you have a doctrine you want to hold on to and are looking for something to prop it up. I just don't see biblical support for it.


----------



## Pergamum

Bob,

Even imperfect earthly believers know the fate of Pharoah and Judas. Will we not understand their fates even better in heaven? Or at least not forget what the very Scriptures say about them? And if we know their fates in heaven, what will we think?

This is no novel doctrine, it has a long history.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

Let's start with the most basic of questions first: (1) Do you believe that the saints in heaven know something of hell or the fate of the wicked while in heaven? Yes or no. (2) If they do know something of the wicked while in heaven, how will the saints react and respond to this knowledge that there is a hell and that there are people in there?


----------



## John Bunyan

If I remember well most people up to the 19th century believed that we would, matter fact, witness the due punishment of the wicked and would rejoice in God's justice. Then, the attitude of most people in relation to punishment changed from "rejoicing at justice" to "being sad for the punished persons, even if they deserved it". So, yes, Pergamum's position is no novelty. When we look at history, the idea that we should pitty wrongdoers for receiving their due punishment after judgment (both civil and divine) is quite non-standard.


----------



## a mere housewife

Reading through this there seems some confusion about what is rejected in the idea of contemplating the wicked suffer in heaven -- for I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we will feel in our hearts in heaven that God has really been too hard in his judgments on the wicked; and I don't believe the argument is that we will experience 'amnesia'; but that the abundance of peace we long for in the immediate presence of God does not have any necessary connection to the sound or vision of torment. These things have come into our world not because people dwelt in the presence of God but because people rejected and were cast out of His presence. And the consolations of the land the righteous inherit, in inheriting the Lord (whose meekness and gentleness are our rest) do not require an eternal vision and joy over those who have excluded themselves from His meekness and gentleness. Surely it is in part because we will find Him to be so much our rest and consolation that we will eternally be able to leave 'all spirits and all dust' (even those we have loved dearly here) to Him whom we love and in whose presence we will find peace.

This may be a topic for another thread, but I was wondering (in light of some recent ones) if there is any correlation between the idea that it will be our place to watch those who have rejected Christ suffer forever, and the idea that it is our place here and now to withhold forgiveness until we have exacted some form of penitence? In my own mind the thought that it is not my place to in any way preside over hell in eternity but to enjoy the presence of the Lord, does correlate to the idea that it is not my place to demand from a fellow sinful creature some sort of penitence now -- but simply to behave towards him as my Lord behaves to me -- to help him see as much as I am able that the Lord I serve is wonderful to be around, and simply to be around Him myself.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Pergamum said:


> John,
> 
> You joined the board too late. There was once the mythical era of the Puritanboard Librarian, who could find 100 quotes for any subject and who was a great blessing by his research.


----------

