# All things work for good to those that love God...Right?



## earl40 (Aug 19, 2009)

Of course we all agree. 

So here is a thought.

Can you agree with? "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him".


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## PointingToChrist (Aug 19, 2009)

earl40 said:


> Of course we all agree.
> 
> So here is a thought.
> 
> Can you agree with? "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him".



All things work out badly for whom?

The Lord has weaved an intricate plan and he directs everyone and everything in this world. Ultimately, those who are not known by the Lord and do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation are sentenced to Hell.

During an unbeliever's life, he may have "good" worldly things in the way of circumstances, possessions, etc., and things that person may do may benefit believers, so "all things work out badly" would be an inaccurate statement.

Is there a deeper question you are getting at?

Thanks!


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## a mere housewife (Aug 19, 2009)

I'll agree to 'The way of the transgressor is hard' 

We had a long discussion related to this recently here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/gods-hatred-50145/

Prufrock linked to this excellent post by Rev. Winzer at comment 142 -- the argument of which is that's God's general love is effectual even to the wicked (so I find it difficult to state things in precisely the terms above, and don't find that Scripture does so?): http://www.puritanboard.com/532242-post41.html


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## OPC'n (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't believe that God loves the unelect since the Bible states just the opposite, so I would have to agree to "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him". All the pleasures they experience on this earth will be a judgment against them in hell.


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## ClayPot (Aug 19, 2009)

earl40 said:


> Of course we all agree.
> 
> So here is a thought.
> 
> Can you agree with? "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him".



All things work out bad for those who continue to not love him. Obviously, someone who does not love God now may come to a repentant faith just a short time later, totally changing the situation.


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## ewenlin (Aug 19, 2009)

As Joshua has made the distinction, it's an issue of how we define good. Assuming anything outside of Christ (saving grace, Rom 8:28) is utter hopelessness and ultimately 
"bad" (i.e. destruction) then of course by implication God works bad for those who are not of Christ.

Nevertheless we are bound by our temporal and material view on things especially the way good is defined. That the rain is given to both the righteous and wicked is an example of how good things are given to all, so in this sense God doesn't work "bad" specifically but as Rev. Winzer says, His general love is effectual to all.


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## FenderPriest (Aug 19, 2009)

Potentially a helpful verse in working this one out:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." ~ John 3:36


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## Theogenes (Aug 19, 2009)

Psalm 73 seems to support that idea.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 19, 2009)

For those that love God and are called according to His purposes, everything that happens in this life will be used for our ultimate blessing - both the blessings and the curses of this world will have been used of God for our good.

For those that hate God and remain in their rebellion, even the blessings in this life will ultimately be a curse to them. Romans 1:18ff, in fact, states as much because the wrath of God is poured out against all flesh that has received so much from the Hand of the Creator and yet is not thankful nor glorifying to Him for it.


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## earl40 (Aug 19, 2009)

ewenlin said:


> Nevertheless we are bound by our temporal and material view on things especially the way good is defined. That the rain is given to both the righteous and wicked is an example of how good things are given to all, so in this sense God doesn't work "bad" specifically but as Rev. Winzer says, His general love is effectual to all.




Why do you say "that we are bound by our temporal and material view" when we can say "all things work out for good to those that love God"?

We have no problem extrapolating this with an eternal perspective...why not the other way around?

-----Added 8/19/2009 at 11:42:51 EST-----



Joshua said:


> An important distinction to make would be that *ultimately* all things work to the reprobate's "bad" (i.e. destruction). However, the obvious temporal "good things of the earth," in one sense, are here for their creaturely comforts, (family, food, shelter) etc.



You are correct I meant ultimately.

Now what will God do for all the ingratitude the reprobate showed towards His temporal good?


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## ewenlin (Aug 19, 2009)

earl40 said:


> ewenlin said:
> 
> 
> > Nevertheless we are bound by our temporal and material view on things especially the way good is defined. That the rain is given to both the righteous and wicked is an example of how good things are given to all, so in this sense God doesn't work "bad" specifically but as Rev. Winzer says, His general love is effectual to all.
> ...



Perhaps my choice of words was not that accurate. We are accustomed to the temporal view. And those outside of Christ cannot extrapolate this with an eternal perspective.


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## earl40 (Aug 19, 2009)

Joshua said:


> earl40 said:
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> > Joshua said:
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So I take it "All things work out bad for those who don't "ultimatly" love Him" sounds OK to you.

-----Added 8/19/2009 at 12:03:44 EST-----



ewenlin said:


> Perhaps my choice of words was not that accurate. We are accustomed to the temporal view. And those outside of Christ cannot extrapolate this with an eternal perspective.




I was of course extrapolating for them.


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## ewenlin (Aug 19, 2009)

earl40 said:


> Joshua said:
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> > earl40 said:
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 by the way, welcome to the PB


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## earl40 (Aug 19, 2009)

Joshua said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > "All things work out _ultimately_ for the bad of those who have not been called according to God's purpose." That does not mean that while said things are lavished upon them in time that they are "bad" in time. It means that though they are good things within themselves, they serve a greater, ultimate purpose in God's decree.
> ...


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## a mere housewife (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't think I have the proper vocabulary to express this, but surely punishment for sin is 'good'? It is good that sin should be punished and its effects stayed; justice is _good_, and what the unbeliever is experiencing is justice. I have a hard time talking about even -- or perhaps especially -- ultimate bad because the reality of all these negative experiences is a great ultimate good; and the unbeliever experiences that utterly positive thing even in punishment, though of course he has no enjoyment in the experience as he forsook true pleasure in other goods. I'm sure I don't express this very well. I just can't think of reality in those terms or see even fallen existence that way?



> > ewenlin said:
> >
> >
> > > Perhaps my choice of words was not that accurate. We are accustomed to the temporal view. And those outside of Christ cannot extrapolate this with an eternal perspective.
> ...


This made me laugh: I love Calvinists


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## dr_parsley (Aug 19, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> I don't think I have the proper vocabulary to express this, but surely punishment for sin is 'good'? It is good that sin should be punished and its effects stayed; justice is _good_, and what the unbeliever is experiencing is justice.



Oh Joy! You are seeing justice from God's point of view. Thank you so much for that. You are blessed indeed; but that we could share God's view more often.


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## earl40 (Aug 20, 2009)

dr_parsley said:


> Oh Joy! You are seeing justice from God's point of view. Thank you so much for that. You are blessed indeed; but that we could share God's view more often.




Sarcasm?


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## a mere housewife (Aug 20, 2009)

earl40 said:


> dr_parsley said:
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> 
> > Oh Joy! You are seeing justice from God's point of view. Thank you so much for that. You are blessed indeed; but that we could share God's view more often.
> ...



Perhaps this is the risk of not being taken seriously that Ronda spoke of . 

Earl, could you explain more why you think that agreement with what I said must be sarcastic? (I know I don't say things in the best way: but I'm afraid it usually takes more than a one word response to clarify questions for me -- though you may just not have hit on the right word yet


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## a mere housewife (Aug 20, 2009)

PS. Just to clarify: I'm not sure that we are able to see things 'from God's point of view' -- it's just that I have trouble seeing things as often expressed in these threads, as a human.


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## earl40 (Aug 21, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> earl40 said:
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> > dr_parsley said:
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I thought you were right on. My post was directed towards dr parsley.


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## dr_parsley (Aug 21, 2009)

earl40 said:


> dr_parsley said:
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> 
> > Oh Joy! You are seeing justice from God's point of view. Thank you so much for that. You are blessed indeed; but that we could share God's view more often.
> ...



Not at all.


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## earl40 (Aug 21, 2009)

dr_parsley said:


> earl40 said:
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> > dr_parsley said:
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Sometimes the written word just does not avail one to understand intent till we get to know each other in a fuller sense.


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## toddpedlar (Aug 21, 2009)

earl40 said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > "All things work out _ultimately_ for the bad of those who have not been called according to God's purpose." That does not mean that while said things are lavished upon them in time that they are "bad" in time. It means that though they are good things within themselves, they serve a greater, ultimate purpose in God's decree.
> ...



Unless you're going to redefine "grace" I don't see how it could be called "grace".


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## ewenlin (Aug 21, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> > I was of course extrapolating for them.
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> 
> ...



I don't understand this...


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## earl40 (Aug 21, 2009)

Joshua said:


> toddpedlar said:
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Temporal good providence it is.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 21, 2009)

ewenlin said:


> a mere housewife said:
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> > > I was of course extrapolating for them.
> ...



This thread keeps getting distracted by my mis-communications -- I'm sorry. I just thought it enjoyable that the embracing smiley followed on agreement that all things were going to work out badly for the wicked. (only Calvinists . . .


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