# Antimissionary groups, baptists + a quote needed



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2007)

Hello;

What do you guys know about anitmission baptists and vocal Christian opponents of missions. 

I know some hypers advocated this and in Kentucky sprang up an antimission baptist group. 

This is intriguing. What were their arguments and Biblical support? Did it affect baptists only or Presbyterians and others as well? Any documentation and primary sources?



Also, wHen Carey gave his Isaiah sermon, a Ryland fella stood up and said that when God wanted to convert the heathen he would do it himself. 

I have long heard that this was an urban legend and this was never said (Ryland afterward supported Carey I believe).

Does anyone here have documentation of whether this did or did not, in fact, happen?


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## Ivan (Nov 4, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> Also, wHen Carey gave his Isaiah sermon, a Ryland fella stood up and said that when God wanted to convert the heathen he would do it himself.
> 
> I have long heard that this was an urban legend and this was never said (Ryland afterward supported Carey I believe).
> 
> Does anyone here have documentation of whether this did or did not, in fact, happen?



Quoted in William Carey, An Inquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use Means for the Coversion of the Heathen, Facsimile ed.; intro. Ernest A. Payne (London: Carey Kingsgate Press, 1961) iii.


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## JonathanHunt (Nov 4, 2007)

Dear Pergy

The famous meeting with various ministers to which you refer occurred before Carey published his 'Enquiry' or preached his 'Deathless Sermon'.

He was the Pastor of a small village church at Moulton and attended a MInisters' fraternal at Northampton.

Here is some relevant info from the excellent Biography by S. Pearce Carey, edited by Peter Masters and republished in 1993. Note that there were two John Rylands, both pastors, father and son. I have typed some bits out for you as I know you won't be able to access a copy:



> The elder Ryland insisted that he (Carey) ... should propose themes for discussion. Carey, when pressed, proposed (in careful terms from long thought) that they should consider 'whether the command given to the apostles to teach all nations was not binding on all succeeding ministers to the end of the world, seeing that the accompanying promise was of equal extent.'
> 
> John Ryland (Jr) later contradicted the story that gained wide currency that his Father brushed Carey's topic aside with a rough 'Young man, sit down, sit down! You're an enthusiast. When God pleases to convert the heathen, He'll do it without consulting you or me. Besides, there must first be another pentecostal gift of tongues!'
> 
> But Thomas Wright of Olney, chief authority on Ryland, regards the outburst as extremely likely from the gruff old hyper-calvinist. Carey himself, at different times, told his nephew Eustace and Marshman (Joshua, a fellow-missionary) that he had recieved an abashing rebuke, and the subject was dismissed.


p47

John Ryland Jr was a firm supporter of Carey, and a founder member of the missionary society. His father was not!

I'm also going to quote a bit from the chapter covering 'The Deathless Sermon' - just cause I love it so! The Northampton Association met at Nottingham, 17 our of 24 pastors being noted as speaking, perhaps more there, and some messengers. May, 1792.



> On Wednesday they met at 6am for prayer, and at 10am for the first sermon, with Carey in the pulpit. Isaiah 54 was his scripture. He knew its song by heart, having so often read it in the original Hebrew, his one regret being that its rich Hebrew assonances were not echoed in the English rendering. With Isaiah's faith his soul was all aglow. When presently he made verses 2 and 3 his message, his intimates knew that into that hour the passion of eight years was to be poured. He rang the great challenge out:
> 
> _Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes,; for thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Fear not._
> 
> The text itself was a treasure trove. There could be no more inspiring missionary message, yet it had lain in the grave unrealised and forgotten until it woke for Carey, and held him with its power. ... Now with his words he lit a beacon that was to blaze for years to come. One has called it 'a burning bush of missionary revelation'.


p74-75

In opening the chapter of the book that deals with this sermon, Dr Masters pens the following helpful paragraph:



> Why the 'deathless sermon'? It has been pointed out that no other sermon since Bible times has won such an enduring place as Carey's in the memory of the Church. Very few Christians can quote anything from the sermons of the great preaching worthies, such as Luther, Calvin, Whitefield and Spurgeon. But Carey's Nottingham watchword, 'Expect great things; attempt great things' , is famous throughout the Christian world. Is it not fitting that the sermon which triggered the age of missions should have been given such a distinguishing honour? 'He hath exalted them of low degree!'



Hope this helps.


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## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2007)

Wow, thanks guys. THis informs my views. Been tracking to track down good info for awhile, but my Carey books are Stateside.


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