# "In the words Jesus taught us..."



## KevinInReno (Jul 1, 2011)

I was curious if anyone else had an issue with the corporate saying of the Lord's Prayer [The Lords prayer recorded by Matthew] if when a Pastor prefaces it, "In the words Jesus taught us", which tends to be a pretty common expression, and then the doxology is added onto it.

I've often had those in my home church who get frustrated because I actually go silent in the saying of the doxology. The earliest sources of Matthew (I am aware it was added to later Byzantine sources and can be found in the Didache) obviously don't have it. I've just always felt while I agree with the theology of the doxology and it is close to the scripture passage 1 Chronicles 29:11 in content - you shouldn't say you are quoting the prayer Jesus taught us, and add a line.

Am I just completely misguided and an obnoxious literalist in this manner, or does anyone see my point?


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## Kevin (Jul 1, 2011)

No, i don't have problem.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 1, 2011)

I know that most of us who are knowledgable or have been to seminary have been indoctrinated into the critical text is superior camp, but consider this; The Greek orthodox church speaks Greek and have always spoken Greek, and the bible was of course written in Greek. The Greek orthodox church will only use the Byzantine text and considers the critical text to be corrupt. Its a little ironic that people who don't speak Greek are telling those who do which texts are supposedly better. Just my opinion.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 1, 2011)

By doxology I assume you mean "For thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen." and not "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...". Am I correct in that asumption?


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## Jack K (Jul 1, 2011)

Even if we were all to accept the point that the last line doesn't belong (and you won't find agreement on that on this board), I don't think you have to be picky about the "Jesus taught these words" intro if the prayer is otherwise a good one. Jesus said most of it. It's consistent with his teaching. Go ahead and accept the spirit of the "Jesus taught this" tradition, and pray with the rest of your church body. The spirit of the intro is right, even if we might quibble about whether or not it is literally exact.

By saying this I don't want to suggest you must violate your conscience on that matter. I only wish to encourage you that, if you think about it, I believe you can pray that last line with a clear conscience. And it would be good to do so. It means joining fully with your brothers and sisters, in a submissive spirit, in a highly biblical prayer.


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## KevinInReno (Jul 1, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I know that most of us who are knowledgable or have been to seminary have been indoctrinated into the critical text is superior camp, but consider this; The Greek orthodox church speaks Greek and have always spoken Greek, and the bible was of course written in Greek. The Greek orthodox church will only use the Byzantine text and considers the critical text to be corrupt. Its a little ironic that people who don't speak Greek are telling those who do which texts are supposedly better. Just my opinion.



I will say this is a reasonable response. I get the premise here, but doesn't this start to get to a slippery slope. For example should I now take the Greek Orthodox Church's translation of everything Greek over lets say the KJV, ESV, etc which use the critical source? Because they are in conflict here. It seems to be the larger point that post is suggesting.



Joseph Scibbe said:


> By doxology I assume you mean "For thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen." and not "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...". Am I correct in that asumption?



Your assumption is correct. I have no problem with the actual doxology in worship. I'm just referring to the line often called the doxology for the Lord's Prayer.


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## elnwood (Jul 1, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I know that most of us who are knowledgable or have been to seminary have been indoctrinated into the critical text is superior camp, but consider this; The Greek orthodox church speaks Greek and have always spoken Greek, and the bible was of course written in Greek. The Greek orthodox church will only use the Byzantine text and considers the critical text to be corrupt. Its a little ironic that people who don't speak Greek are telling those who do which texts are supposedly better. Just my opinion.



I consider their doctrine to be corrupt.


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## sastark (Jul 1, 2011)

KevinInReno said:


> you shouldn't say you are quoting the prayer Jesus taught us, and add a line.



Who says a line is being added? Some 18th century Germans (or some 19th century Brits)? I say those who omit the doxology are saying an incomplete prayer.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 1, 2011)

Regardless of one's opinion on the textual basis for the doxology, the language has a long history in the liturgical life of the church--and by church, I'm not just talking about the New Testament age.

David sets a pattern, 1Chr.29:11 "*Yours*, O LORD, is the greatness and *the power and the glory* and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. *Yours is the kingdom*, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all."


The church prays in this manner, Ps.145:10-12, "All your works shall give thanks to you, O LORD, and all your saints shall bless you! They shall speak of *the glory of your kingdom* and tell of *your power*, to make known to the children of man your *mighty* deeds, and the *glorious splendor of your kingdom*"

It is prophesied of Messiah, Dan.7:14 "And to him was given *dominion and glory and a kingdom*, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his *dominion* is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his *kingdom* one that shall not be destroyed."

The Apostle's ascribe the same general sentiments to the Lord, e.g. 2Tim.4:18, "The Lord will *rescue* me from every evil deed and *bring me safely* into his heavenly *kingdom*. To him be the *glory forever* and ever. Amen.


In other words,, as the inspirer of Scripture, Christ has given us such words as these for prayer. So, irrespective of the textual question at the place cited, if we ask merely of the aptness of the expression the answer is an obvious, "yes."


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 1, 2011)

KevinInReno said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I know that most of us who are knowledgable or have been to seminary have been indoctrinated into the critical text is superior camp, but consider this; The Greek orthodox church speaks Greek and have always spoken Greek, and the bible was of course written in Greek. The Greek orthodox church will only use the Byzantine text and considers the critical text to be corrupt. Its a little ironic that people who don't speak Greek are telling those who do which texts are supposedly better. Just my opinion.
> ...



I see. Well, if you have an issue of conscience with saying the doxology then just remain silent. If anyone makes an issue of it then respectfully inform them of your position. I personally don't have a problem with it because some textual traditions have it in there and it very well could be how Jesus taught the prayer.


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## elnwood (Jul 1, 2011)

Here's Metzger's Textual Commentary on Matthew 6.13:

*6.13* πονηροῦ {A}

The ascription at the close of the Lord's Prayer occurs in several forms. In K L W Δ Θ Π _f_[SUP]13[/SUP] _al_ it is the familiar triple strophic form, whereas the Sahidic and Fayyumic (like the form quoted in the Didache) lack ἡ βασιλεία καί, the Curetonian Syriac lacks ἡ δύναμις καί, and the Old Latin k reads simply "for thine is the power for ever and ever." Some Greek manuscripts expand "for ever" into "for ever and ever," and most of them add "amen." Several late manuscripts (157 225 418) append a trinitarian ascription "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for ever. Amen." The same expansion occurs also at the close of the Lord's Prayer in the liturgy that is traditionally ascribed to St. John Chrysostom.

The absence of any ascription in early and important representatives of the Alexandrian (א B), the Western (D and most of the Old Latin), and the pre-Caesarean (_f_[SUP]1[/SUP]) types of text, as well as early patristic commentaries on the Lord's Prayer (those of Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian), suggests that an ascription, usually in a threefold form, was composed (perhaps on the basis of 1 Chr 29.11-13) in order to adapt the Prayer for liturgical use in the early church.


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## KevinInReno (Jul 1, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Here's Metzger's Textual Commentary on Matthew 6.13:
> 
> *6.13* πονηροῦ {A}
> 
> ...



Fantastic explanation, much appreciated - both to you and Metzger.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 1, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I know that most of us who are knowledgable or have been to seminary have been indoctrinated into the critical text is superior camp, but consider this; The Greek orthodox church speaks Greek and have always spoken Greek, and the bible was of course written in Greek. The Greek orthodox church will only use the Byzantine text and considers the critical text to be corrupt. Its a little ironic that people who don't speak Greek are telling those who do which texts are supposedly better. Just my opinion.
> ...


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## elnwood (Jul 1, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Their doctrine is corrupt because they, like the Catholics, place more emphasis on tradition than on the Word, but it is not corrupt bacause they can't understand Greek.



Understanding Greek has little to do with the study of textual criticism. The Orthodox choose the Byzantine tradition because of their emphasis on tradition -- they are slow to accept the new manuscripts, and they have a bias towards the Byzantine tradition of manuscripts is more local to them. (The Roman Catholic Church has a similar bias to the Vulgate tradition).

But if you're so convinced that the Orthodox Church is the preserver of Scripture, you're welcome to hold to their 1904 Patriarchal Text as authoritative, as well as the LXX Apocrypha.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 1, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > Their doctrine is corrupt because they, like the Catholics, place more emphasis on tradition than on the Word, but it is not corrupt bacause they can't understand Greek.
> ...


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