# Does assurance rest on looking inward to sanctification or outward to imputation



## moral necessity (Jan 4, 2008)

Thoughts?


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## py3ak (Jan 4, 2008)

WCF 18.2


> II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith *founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God*, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.


 (emphasis added)


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 4, 2008)

See also THIS THREAD.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 4, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> Thoughts?



Both.

My assurance rests upon the word of God and His promises. Everything afterwards is secondary. 

My favorite promise is....



> (Joh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



But I also heed the warning of 2 Corinthians 13:5 and 2 Peter 1:10. 



> (2Pe 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
> 
> 
> (2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


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## moral necessity (Jan 4, 2008)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> See also THIS THREAD.



Larry Hughes says it beautifully!

"No, one is not saved by the right desires, this confuses means with ends…cause and effect. In fact when God comes to a man, dead in sins and trespasses, we might add utterly and totally dead, He finds NO faith or repentance whatsoever. He speaks the Gospel and it is a “Let there be light” or “Lazarus come forth”. One is saved by Christ’s work alone, trusting in that is the breathing and heartbeat of the elect.

Secondly, one is no more saved by being self-serving than by pretending to be unself-serving, which is in fact self serving. No one can produce an unselfserving first cause. In fact man fallen cannot be anything but utterly self serving, either as an open sinner or pious false saint.

Do not let your ‘desires’ become a new work for you. Look and trust in Christ alone, nakedly, and do not look at your looking (faith in faith or trust in trust) which is to say stop not trusting in Him, which is to say don’t try to trust or not not trust in Him but LOOK to Him alone and then suddenly you are doing it. The life comes from His end not yours.

Do not look to election, the Father is to high for us. Look to Christ who is the revelation of the revealed God perfectly, listen to Him. One’s election is not found in election but in the Cross of Christ alone. If election was to be sought some other way then Christ need not be incarnate nor would we have need of the sacraments. To put it yet another way, the elect are not fixing their gaze upon election but Christ crucified and risen…all other “looking” is utterly vain and no peace (a fruit of the Spirit) can be had.

Blessings,

Larry
__________________
Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA"


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 4, 2008)

This may address some of the issues but it still doesn't address the total issue of our responsibilities to believe and receive. You asked about assurance of salvation. With that question in mind there is work to be done. It is not a work that earns salvation but a work that understands it.


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## greenbaggins (Jan 4, 2008)

It is also important to distinguish assurance from faith. As the Westminster Confession puts it, "assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto." So the means of grace (Word, Sacraments, and prayer) are the means to obtain assurance.


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## moral necessity (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks, James! The reference led to my reading of the words of R. Scott Clark on the issue, which was phenomenal! May grace not allow our hope to stray from the truth and foundation of our assurance!


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 4, 2008)

> (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the *substance* of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
> 
> (Heb 11:2) For by it the elders obtained a good report.
> 
> (Heb 11:3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



Just some notes to mention. In the NASB the word substance in the KJV is translated assurance. I am not sure the NASB is a good translation at this point or not. Also in verse 3 it is through faith that we understand.....


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## moral necessity (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for your thoughts Randy! The word there is "hypostasis", or something to that effect in Greek. It's the same word used earlier in Hebrews in Chapter 1:3, where Christ is said to the be the "express image" of the Father. 

Kittle's Theological Dictionary says some interesting things regarding the word:

"It literally means to "a standing under", implying, that which stands or is set under, a foundation, beginning; hence, the quality of confidence which leads one to stand under, endure, or undertake anything. It is the real nature of a thing, and which underlies and supports its outward form or properties...Hypostasis itself denotes, not the confidence, but the divine reality that contrasts with everything shadowy and prototypical and that is paradoxically present in Jesus and possessed by the community in faith. The rendering "confidence" or "assurance" gives rise to many difficulties and has little outside support." - Gerhard Kittle.

Again, thanks for your input. It is very much valued and appreciated!

Blessings!


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 4, 2008)

This is very interesting



> Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
> 
> 5287 hypóstasis being, essence, reality
> A. Greek Usage.
> ...



Interesting read.

I think substance, or essence would be the better translation.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Jan 5, 2008)

To the OP question: The answer seems to be both, not either-or.

Assurance is our new-birthright. Objectively based on the promises of God. Subjectively confirmed by the Spirit witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God.

I find it interesting that the WCF specifically states that "assurance doth not so belong to the essence of [saving] faith."


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## Gesetveemet (Jan 5, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> Thoughts?



My one cent not 

Being that God wills all His children to have assurance is it really a "light beyond the light of ordinary faith". 



> Thomas Goodwin developed the thinking of Sibbes and Preston on the sealing of the Spirit even more, defining it as a *“light beyond the light of ordinary faith.” *Goodwin wrote: “There is an immediate assurance of the Holy Ghost, by a heavenly and divine light, of a divine authority, which the Holy Ghost sheddeth in a man’s heart, (not having relation to grace wrought or anything in a man’s self,) whereby he sealeth him up to the day of redemption.” He added, *“It is the next thing to heaven . . . you can have no more until you come thither.”* Furthermore, the “whispering” of the Holy Spirit tells the believer that he is elect of God, has his sins forgiven, and belongs to Him forever—both intuitively and directly. Richard Baxter, David Clarkson (formerly Owen’s assistant), and several Puritan writers followed in varying degrees Goodwin’s teaching, making a direct tie between the sealing of the Spirit and full assurance of faith.



http://www.johnowen.org/media/beeke...ohnowen.org/media/beeke_owen_on_assurance.pdf
John Owen on Assurance
by Joel R. Beeke




.


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks for your thoughts, William! I couldn't get the file to come up though. I think I have the writing, however, in one of his volumes here on my shelf.

Blessings!


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

1John is saturated with the answer on how to know whether one is saved. 

To some it up a bit:

If your righteous your saved
If your not righteous your not saved

If you abstain from sin your saved
If you do not abstain from sin you are not saved

If you keep his commandments you are saved
If you do not keep his commandments you are not saved


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## greenbaggins (Jan 5, 2008)

The reason that the Westminster Confession distinguishes saving faith from assurance is not so that they can be separated. Let us make that crystal clear. The seed of assurance is always there when saving faith is present. However, there are many people who have little or no _sense_ of assurance who are nevertheless saved. Therefore, the WCF wanted to address this issue pastorally in such a way that people might not say, "Well, since I have no assurance, therefore I am not saved." The logic works this way: if one does not have faith, then any "assurance" is false. However, if one lacks a strong sense of assurance, that does not mean a lack of faith itself. 

Fortunately for us, the strength of our assurance does not rest on ourselves. It rests on the means of grace, which always point us back to our Savior. When it comes to assurance, many people want to look inside themselves. Now, I am not one to say that self-examination is bad. Far from it. However, the question is _how_ we look inside. Do we look there to find Jesus residing in us by the power of the Holy Spirit? Or do we look inside to find something that is ours _apart from_ the Holy Spirit? It is far better to look outside ourselves to Christ. Robert Murray M'Cheyne put it this way: "For every one time you look inside yourself, look ten times at Christ." I think we would all get quite a bit futher ahead in our assurance if we would take M'Cheyne's advice.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> 1John is saturated with the answer on how to know whether one is saved.
> 
> To some it up a bit:
> 
> ...


I think this summary is actually very problematic and doesn't quite capture 1 John very well.



> If you abstain from sin your saved
> If you do not abstain from sin you are not saved


Actually, John states two things.
1. If we say that we have no sin then the truth is not in us.
2. Nobody who continues in or practices sin abides in Christ.

You have to get your categories straight with John or you'll end up teaching it like a Roman Catholic.

The issue is whether or not one is united to Christ by faith. All the _activity_ is a *symptom* of abiding in Christ. We may say that we abide but a tree is known by his fruit. But the fruit is not the reason we are saved.

This is a common error among many to lead with the fruit and build up the tree around it. Start with the tree and work to the fruit.


> 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Tree: He who is in you.
Fruit: You have overcome
Tree: We are of God
Fruit: We hear God


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks, Rich! Though I gathered what Dan meant, taking it more "tongue in cheek" and not literally, I appreciate your excerpt here regarding I John. John is frequently misunderstood in the way you give warning about, and it's not proper. The Catholic method is no gospel, ie. good news.

Blessings!


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## John Gill (Jan 6, 2008)

You wrote:
"The issue is whether or not one is united to Christ by faith. All the activity is a symptom of abiding in Christ. We may say that we abide but a tree is known by his fruit. But the fruit is not the reason we are saved."


The question wasnt concerning what saves but assurance of salvation. Hence my answer was works show salvation, not ARE salvation. We are in agreement.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 6, 2008)

John Gill said:


> You wrote:
> "The issue is whether or not one is united to Christ by faith. All the activity is a symptom of abiding in Christ. We may say that we abide but a tree is known by his fruit. But the fruit is not the reason we are saved."
> 
> 
> The question wasnt concerning what saves but assurance of salvation. Hence my answer was works show salvation, not ARE salvation. We are in agreement.



I would suggest, then, that you tighten up your presentation. I wouldn't even state that it was a good answer for how one gains assurance of salvation. It is simply incomplete given how men want to "fill in the blanks" with regard to what it means to be righteous or to abstain from sin. Given your recent exposure to Reformed theology, I think you need to reflect more upon the other answers being given and ensure you're getting it all into your bloodstream. It's not immediately intuitive because men have a natural understanding of the Law and it takes some time for the Gospel to really start sinking in.


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## John Gill (Jan 6, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> John Gill said:
> 
> 
> > You wrote:
> ...



Agreed Semper.

I am still learning. I admit to not being able to quote all the creeds or know all of the fancy reformed lingo most seem to know so I rely on what I read in the Bible. I'm sure I don't have half the intelect of most on the board, nor do I "craft" my arguements as eloquently.

I am a big proponent of Lordship salvation. God used Macaurthers teaching on the subject to get me to understand and accept calvinism. That is the reason for my answer above. If one looks at their faith and sees a "dead" faith than they have reason to be concerned.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 6, 2008)

Calvin on faith and assurance, his famous defintion of saving faith: “It is a firm and sure knowledge of the divine flavour toward us, founded on the truth of a free promise in Christ, and revealed to our minds, and sealed on our hearts, by the Holy Spirit” (Institutes, 111:2:7).


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## moral necessity (Jan 6, 2008)

Excellent reference Dennis! 

You made me chuckle, however, with your way of putting it...
...I wonded if Baskin Robbins came out with flavour #32 and I didn't know about it. Spiritual ice cream is the best kind, you know.

Blessings!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 6, 2008)

John Gill said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> > John Gill said:
> ...



I understand. It's not a matter of having the right "Reformed lingo" however. I assume you're aware that Reformed theology derives its teaching from the Scriptures. We all rely on what we read in the Bible. It's a matter of how we form what we read that communicates, for better or worse, what is contained in the pages of Scripture.

When I initially critiqued your presentation, it was to suggest that your focus on the fruits of union with Christ are not bad to look upon but the main thing this thread is drawing out is that assurance rests upon an objective and a subjective basis. 1 John, especially, draws this point out well as all the subjective measures are grounded in the objective truth of what God has done to draw us unto Him.

I had a former Pastor that actually believed in the imputation of Christ's righteousness and claimed he was Reformed but his presentation of things did not communicate this idea at all. Even an idea like Lordship salvation can be turned into the "...this we will do..." of the Law as men interpret the idea that they "really need to commit" to Christ's Lordship so that blessings will flow. But the Gospel is a receiving and resting and fruit flows out from the gratitude of our hearts.

Even Roman Catholics say that a faith without works is dead. Men need it explained clearly because our hearts are naturally tuned to the Law and not to the Gospel.


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## moral necessity (Jan 6, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> I had a former Pastor that actually believed in the imputation of Christ's righteousness and claimed he was Reformed but his presentation of things did not communicate this idea at all. Even an idea like Lordship salvation can be turned into the "...this we will do..." of the Law as men interpret the idea that they "really need to commit" to Christ's Lordship so that blessings will flow. But the Gospel is a receiving and resting and fruit flows out from the gratitude of our hearts.
> 
> Even Roman Catholics say that a faith without works is dead. Men need it explained clearly because our hearts are naturally tuned to the Law and not to the Gospel.



Excellent Post, Rich!

I've found that pastors coming out of the Arminian camp into Calvinism have the hardest time with that very adjustment. They've founded their assurance on works for so long, that they struggle with founding it on Christ's promise; for they fear it encourages antinomianism. And so, they end up distorting theology and denying the free assurance that can be had in the Gospel in the name of protecting it from corruption. And, for those struggling for assurance under their ministry, it makes for a miserable christianity.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 6, 2008)

John Gill said:


> Agreed Semper.
> 
> I am still learning. I admit to not being able to quote all the creeds or know all of the fancy reformed lingo most seem to know so I rely on what I read in the Bible. I'm sure I don't have half the intelect of most on the board, nor do I "craft" my arguements as eloquently.
> 
> I am a big proponent of Lordship salvation. God used Macaurthers teaching on the subject to get me to understand and accept calvinism. That is the reason for my answer above. If one looks at their faith and sees a "dead" faith than they have reason to be concerned.



I recommend Christ the Lord Edited by Michael Horton. It is a much better book than John MacArthur's book.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Lord-Reformation-Lordship-Salvation/dp/0801043743]Amazon.com: Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation (Cure Book): Books: Michael Horton[/ame]


And if you just like reading on the subject Richard P. Belcher a Reformed Baptist did a great job in his book 'A Layman's Guide to the Lordship Controversy.'

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Laymans-Guide-Lordship-Controversy/dp/0925703133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199663909&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Laymans-Guide-Lordship-Controversy/dp/0925703133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199663909&sr=1-1[/ame]


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 6, 2008)

Bishop William Beveridge: 'I cannot pray but I sin... My repentance needs to be repented of, and not only the worst of my sins but even the best of my duties, but even my most religious performances... I cannot hear or even preach a sermon but I sin. Nay, I cannot so much as confess my sins but my very confessions are still aggravations of them. My repentance needs to he repented of, my tears want washing, and the very washing of my tears needs still to be washed over again with the blood of my Redeemer. Thus not only the worst of my sins but even the best of my duties, speak me as a child of Adam.'


In light of the above, looking in, can only bring sorrow the vast majority of the time.


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## moral necessity (Jan 6, 2008)

Great reply, Nicholas! I like the quote attached below your Signature as well!


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## MW (Jan 6, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> In light of the above, looking in, can only bring sorrow the vast majority of the time.



Colossians 1:27 teaches otherwise. The effect of looking in depends entirely on what is being examined.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > In light of the above, looking in, can only bring sorrow the vast majority of the time.
> ...



In the context of Nicholas' quote, do you think you're talking about the same kind of "looking in"?

{I know I'm "preaching to the choir" below but I want to try to develop what I think you're concerned about}

I do think there is a place for honestly evaluating our affections and attitudes in light of what we confess. I think Nicholas' quote is true from one angle that we ought never think that our activities are satifactory in themselves:


> V. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins,16but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants:


If the comment is taken to simply acknowledge this idea then I completely agree with it.

Nevertheless, there is a tendency that I believe you are trying to guard against that can take the "...I'm such a wretch..." too far. We are commanded by Scriptures to evaluate our affections with respect to Christ. We are commanded to evaluate whether there is "...any consolation...." Repeatedly, as noted above, 1 John challenges us to "gut check" whether we love the things that God loves. When we find that our affections are growing in grace it ought to strengthen our assurance. If we find ourselves in a state of constant spiritual sloth and apathy for the things of God it ought to give us pause. The solution, obviously, is to attend to the means of Grace and cry out to God for conversion but neither should we be so imbalanced at thinking "...it's all the indicative..." that we don't actually honestly check our hearts.

I remember a number of years back some members of my Church that were just crazy about Lee Irons teaching. They would constantly complain that the Pastor was teaching legalism because he actually preached on some of the imperatives of the Gospel. I hadn't really been completely exposed to this "hyper-Redemptive Historical" idea that all we do is preach what Christ has done and that everything proceeded from a kind of "reformed Quietism".

Just as I warned against the unhealthy, seemingly one-sided presentation that we need to be righteous, so we need to guard against the idea that we never look inside ourselves to be honest with ourselves about where our affections lie. On the one hand, we can be honest and constantly realize that our affections and our works fall far short of glory and that our faith is ever resting in the work of Christ. At the same time, however, we need to make sure that our affections are for the things of God. The Gospel of Christ's work will stir and build those affections but that does not mean we are not to look to see that the fruit is being manifest.

Finally, Romans 8:15-17 teaches that the Spirit will bear witness with _our spirit_ that we are sons of God. That is to say that, agreeing with Col 1:27, we can look inwardly to something the Spirit is doing within us that gives us assurance of what we've inherited through Christ Jesus.


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## MW (Jan 7, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> In the context of Nicholas' quote, do you think you're talking about the same kind of "looking in"?



I believe we are referring to the same introspection.

The statement by Bishop Beveridge is phenomenally biblical. The conclusion of Nicholas doesn't follow. Sinners undoubtedly have no righteousness of their own which can bear the scrutiny of the perfect law of God. It is certainly the case that the imputation of the righteousness of Christ is the only hope of sinners to find acceptance in the sight of God. But it is equally true that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to those that believe, and those only believe who have been regenerated by the Spirit of God. Where there are no marks of regeneration there is no reason to conclude that faith is genuine, and therefore no basis for claiming a saving interest in the finished work of Christ.

It's lamentable to see modern Christians suffering from psychological fracture. They try to produce religious experiences which bypass the heart with the result that they never feel true joy and peace in believing. Biblical doctrine needs to be presented in accord with the biblical view of man. The Bible does not speak of certain facts with which we must brainwash ourselves into the persuasion that all is well with us. The Bible speaks to the heart as the centre of man's religious and moral life, and by a complex balance of instruction, promise, and warning, it converts the soul through the gracious influence of the Spirit of truth.

Justification without regeneration would be a legal fiction -- which is a blatant contradiction to the epistemic claim of Scripture that the *truth* sets men free. Blessings!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2008)

Well said. I believe I said the same thing. Would you take any issue with my presentation of the same?


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > In light of the above, looking in, can only bring sorrow the vast majority of the time.
> ...



27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I am feebily attempting to figure out how this verse has anything to do with the "EXCELLENT BIBLICAL'' post by Bishop Beveridge and also what it has to do with assurance. 

So I stand by the quote as reflecting the true character of a believer in Christ. And also notice how I said 'vast majority' not 100% of the time.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> > In the context of Nicholas' quote, do you think you're talking about the same kind of "looking in"?
> ...





Well since there is a great chance that I am not clear, and only spoke a few words, my conclusion does follow. I also concur that there is a noticeable change in character, yet we must always becareful not to co mingle justification with sanctification. I assumed the threrad was asking if ones assurance of Jutification, rests on looking inward to ones own sanctification. The works and deeds one has done. And that is how my answer is deemed. Assurance is an essence of saving faith. Period. when it is all boiled down. Hebrews 10: 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in (AO)full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that you have eternal life” (I John 5:13). 


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29)


For salvation; assurance of eternal life is always based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. So when I see 'looking in' I automatically, and perhaps wrongly assume that looking at our self worth and deeds as a barometer of our standing with God. Therefore blending sanctification with Justification. Not only can I not look to my faith, for it is so weak at times that there is no assurance there, how can I look to my sanctification when I sin continuously, perhaps not manifested in a such a grave way, yet sin none the less. I must only have hope in the faithfulness for assurance in Christ alone, by His mercy and free grace. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved;” Even if I cannot see any evidence of faith at times, I can be certainly assured of salvation because of the promises of God's Word, that He sees it. Just as the hebrews put the blood on the outside of the door post and could not see it themselves, the Lord saw it and the angel of death passed over it. 

Also, Beveridges statement should not be carried and understood that a true believer must always be gloomy and long faced and a hater of himself. For the grace of God brings a new creation. One will love what they once hated and hate what they once loved. Yet it will be more noticeable to others than ourselves. 

Spurgeon says it well:

I have one more class of objectors to answer and I am finished. There is a certain breed of Calvinist, whom I do not envy, who are always jeering and sneering as much as ever they can at the full assurance of faith. I have seen their long faces; I have heard their whining periods, and read their dismal sentences, in which they say something to the effect - "Groan in the Lord always, and again I say, groan! He that mourneth and weepeth, he that doubted and feareth, he that distrusteth and dishonoureth his God, shall be saved." That seems to be the sum and substance of their very ungospel-like gospel. But why is it they do this? I speak now honestly and fearlessly. It is because there is a pride within them - a conceit which is fed on rottenness, and sucks marrow and fatness out of putrid carcasses. And what, say you, is the object of their pride? Why, the pride of being able to boast of a deep experience - the pride of being a blacker, grosser, and more detestable sinner than other people. "Whose glory is in their shame," may well apply to them. A more dangerous, because a more deceitful pride than this is not to be found. It has all the elements of self-righteousness in it."

From "Full Assurance" by C. H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1861, p. 292.

This is what morbid introspection/examination brings. And a lamentable practice in certain puritan circles.


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## moral necessity (Jan 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Where there are no marks of regeneration there is no reason to conclude that faith is genuine, and therefore no basis for claiming a saving interest in the finished work of Christ.



Without seeming like I disagree with you, Matthew, for I highly respect your opinions in the posts you write and often agree with them, I would like to say that, faith, in itself, is a mark of regeneration, as it is a fruit of regeneration. And, regeneration will lead to additional fruit as well. I'm sure you'd agree with that.

Luther said something to the effect of, "they who have faith will be sanctified, but you may never see it." The visible fruits of sanctification are what Luther is referring to. The inward cleansing from our sin, and renewing of our faculties, which is the core of sanctification, may take quite a long time to become visible fruits that the general person may view. The example that James gives with regard to Abraham is with a fruit that occurred 15 years later. During that time, Abraham was a liar and one who distrusted in the sovereignty of God. Also, our perception of what ought to be there during sanctification often leads us to get "tunnel vision" so to say, to where we look for certain things, and, when they aren't there, we make the wrong evaluation. 

When I examine myself, and look inward for the Christ within me, I don't discredit the presence of faith abiding there, that miraculous faith that is only God-given, that has caused me to abandon all other hopes and all other righteousnesses for the righteousness of Christ being my substitute. When I abandon that as my foundation for assurance, and begin founding it upon the other fruits of sanctification, which may or may not be able to always be perceived, for they are often inward workings that have not yet led to clear, observable, mature fruit, I find myself more prone to the downward spirals of spiritual assaults upon my conscience. Being the perfectionist that I am, and one who examines to the nth degree with this kind of looking, I need a rock of assurance, and not the shifting sand, underneath of my conscience. And, the rock is the promise of God, that, coming to him, he won't cast me out, and that he who began a good work will complete it.

Let me know what you think, as I grant that I see through a glass darkly also.


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## MW (Jan 7, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> Well said. I believe I said the same thing. Would you take any issue with my presentation of the same?



Not at all. I appreciated your emphasis on "honesty." But it is often the case that discussions of practical subjects tend to take for granted the theological framework which undergirds them; so I tried to help by clarifying the theological framework, and also added what I feel should be a major concern in pastoral practice today -- addressing of the heart as a remedy for the fractured psyche of post-postmodern man. Blessings!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2008)

Nicholas,

It wasn't the quote that caused a problem but this commentary upon it.


Amazing Grace said:


> In light of the above, looking in, can only bring sorrow the vast majority of the time.


If we look in and see Christ in us then looking in should not bring sorrow "...the vast majority of the time...." There is absolutely nothing "morbidly introspective" about the Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are sons of God.

I think it is apparently obvious to the casual observer that the WCF decries any assurance _on the basis_ of our works and highlights the truth that we are unprofitable servants and always resting upon the cross of Christ.

We must, however, reconcile with the Scriptures that tell us to ensure that we are truly laying hold of Christ and the fruits of regeneration that proceed from it. James truly is an Epistle of Straw if introspection only leads to morbid obsession.


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## MW (Jan 7, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> Without seeming like I disagree with you, Matthew, for I highly respect your opinions in the posts you write and often agree with them, I would like to say that, faith, in itself, is a mark of regeneration, as it is a fruit of regeneration. And, regeneration will lead to additional fruit as well. I'm sure you'd agree with that.



There is just one point which is worthy of consideration. I would be wary of speaking about additional fruit as something which comes later. The God-given faith by which we receive and rest upon Christ and His righteousness is also the means whereby the heart is purified. Hence justification and sanctification are inseparable. While it is true that the graces of the Spirit develop in us over time, it is also a fact that the seed of those graces are planted in us when we are regenerated. So 2 Peter 1:3, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue." On that basis, as the passage proceeds, we are exhorted to add to our faith and to make our calling and election sure. Blessings!


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## moral necessity (Jan 7, 2008)

Excellent point! Seeds are present at regeneration, which then sprout/develop/mature into fruit, and then into ripe fruit. The time factor varies with different people, as well as the degree, according to the sovereign plan of the Gardener. Thanks for sharpening! Blessings as well!


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## Iconoclast (Jan 7, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> Thoughts?



In 2Pet1 I heard a pastor open up this section of scripture in a message entitled "Get Assurance". The main point of the sermon was along the lines of all these scriptural marks of assurance should be in the believer, and growing as we mature. They will produce fruit in the life as God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
The things mentioned here by Peter [ in vs.5-7 ]come in one on top of another ,like different parts of a choir each being added in to make a smooth sound. These graces manifest in the life lead to an assurance of faith.
Self examination looking for these traits can be helpful.

2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 8, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> Nicholas,
> 
> It wasn't the quote that caused a problem but this commentary upon it.
> 
> ...




Brother Rich: I agree that looking in or out to Christ is the ONLY remedy for sorow. And this is where Joy resides, not in anything I do. Only by the grace of God is the relief of sorrow found, nothing else.


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