# How do you know if you are being spiritually attacked?



## Pergamum

How do you know if you are suffering under particular spiritual attack?


I know that the Devil works and that the forces of evil are out there and always working. I know that our sinful natures also trip us up. But, it does seem that satan and his demons do target folks from time to time.

How do we know when and if this happens.

And what do we do when we suspect that this is the case?


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## TheocraticMonarchist

I don't know a lot about this subject, but I'll give you my though on this question:



> And what do we do when we suspect that this is the case?



I don't think we are necessarily supposed to handle the ‘outside’ devil any differently than we handle the flesh, our ‘inside’ devil. We should cling to the truth God has revealed in the Scriptures, and seek strength from Him.

How does someone overcome the flesh that wants to wallow in self pity, or the devil who wants to depress? Both are similar, and I believe both are overcome the same way, by going to Jesus Christ in prayer, and the Holy Scriptures for victory.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Perg,

Sometimes external events -- circumstances -- can be orchestrated against us; I experienced what I perceived to be an attack when 6 or 7 different people / groups complained against me to my boss (this while I was in human services in NY), and I had to meet with him. It was just too nicely set up to be random. I was active in the media preaching and taking stands for righteousness (in the school system, etc), and had a lot of enemies. I fasted briefly, called some friends to pray for me, asked the Lord for help, and spoke audibly (in private) against any demonic attack, what I would call "warfare prayer".

Sometimes depression can be an assault. Sometimes people close to us, even intimate family members, can be gotten to and used as vessels for satanic attacks: i.e., condemnation, strife, bitterness, anger, etc. While I realize that people are responsible for what goes through them (I do not believe in the nonsense of "sanctification by exorcism"), I will nonetheless take a stand against the demonic powers, asserting the authority of Christ in the spiritual world.

I will pray thus, "Satan and you evil spirits who are against ______ and operating through them against me, in the name of Jesus Christ, and in the power of His Spirit who dwells in me, I break and bind your power over them and over me, and I command you to depart."

I hymn or poem I have had in my Bible for ages reads,

Principalities and powers
Mustering their unseen array,
Wait for thy unguarded hours
Watch and pray!​
I assume the presence of evil ones continually, though my staying close to the Lord and walking in His presence, working His works in various aspects of my life, is sufficient warfare. Preaching / witnessing is a powerful means of warfare. 

I guard my mind, as the devil often works as a deceiver. I watch my thoughts and desires. Are they really mine? Or are these thoughts or feelings projected into me from alien entities? If I have negative thoughts about my wife I will examine them, for I am set to love, cherish, and instruct her in godliness, and I can tell if they are either of "the flesh" or the devil, and I resist them. The spirits can impersonate my thoughts, and often we will be thinking negative sinful things and believe they originate with us, but not always so. Many folks do not guard their minds and hearts, and are sitting ducks for fiery darts.

When I discern occult or extra-ordinary phenomena in people in my circles, I will often pray against the demonic powers as noted above.

I am not a charismatic, but solidly Reformed, though I came out of the sixties counterculture in the U.S. where the drugs and spiritual paths of those times propelled multitudes of us into the demonic realms, and sorcery and witchcraft were commonplace. Were it not for the mighty Christ wading into our midst and calling His elect to Him, we would have perished in the strong delusions we were bound in. I am exercised in these things because from thence the Lord called me, and I have often had to take a stand. I realize that many dear Reformed brethren do not share my views concerning occasional active resistance against the demonic, but I must walk the path the Lord has put me on.

A book I recommend is, _War On The Saints_, by Jessie Penn-Lewis, with Evan Roberts. Here are two online editions of it:

War On The Saints - Contents

War On The Saints - Contents

Satan and you evil spirits who are against Perg and his family, in the name of the risen and exalted Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, and in the power of His Spirit who indwells me, I break and bind your power against them, and command you to go from them. Lord Jesus, watch over Perg and his, and guide him in Your way. Grant him Your joy even in the midst of tribulation, as he stands for Your name and Gospel in a foreign field. Grant him to know Your pleasure in him as he labors in Your fields. Grant him to discern attacks on his mind, or spirit, or emotions, and to draw near to You, and be filled with the power that is in Your heart, and to cast off all that is not of You. Thank You, Lord, that by Your Spirit You dwell within us, and we are filled "with all might, according to [Your] glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks unto the Father..." (Col 1:11, 12). We look forward to seeing You face to face, Lord. Until then, thank You for Your mighty keeping power. Amen.

I'll keep you in prayer, Perg. And you know your High Priest does (Heb 7:25).


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## AVT

I have a brother who accepted the Lord years back. He is from a Roman Catholic background. I believe he has truly accepted the Lord as I've seen work of God's grace in his life . He is not grounded in the Word of God (he is a baby Christian) and coming out from many superstitious beliefs.

They live in Southern part of the Philippines where there are many Muslims and tribes that are spiritistic. They hired a maid from a very remote part of the country and she 
practiced healing inside their home and started giving him "Words from the Lord". He healed my brother from a very bad sore throat . My brother who is also exposed to a charismatic group inside the Catholic Church is drawn to this and believed that this is from the Lord. I told him to get rid of the maid and not to get involved with this but he just got very angry.

I've been telling him for years to move to a Protestant Church like what I did but he won't. Now he is fully deceived and his mind is controlled. He was once a very loving brother and now he hates my Mom and views us as enemies. He has changed and is no longer the brother that we know. The maid dictates him what to do.

We did a background check on the maid and we hired a private investigator .Report says she belongs to a Cult .

We've been praying for 2-3 years now but my brother has totally disengaged from us.

Does he need deliverance? We've asked so many people and churches to pray . Can somebody give us advice? My mom has lost a lot of weight and is in grief due to what happened. My Mom is a Christian and we were advised to keep praying and not to use force.


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## Pergamum

Thanks Steve. 

I see that your are in Cyrpus. Leslie on this board is in Ethiopia and has similar views on spiritual warfare. I am also in the third world and have seen some weird things (and I guess have participated in what could be called an exorcism). 

The three of our views sometimes seem at odds with Western reformed Christans. 

*Why? * 


Have we bought into a little bit of animism or has the West bought into Enlightenment, or a combo of both? I am constantly trying to fit my experience into my Western assumptions.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Perg,

You ask, "Why?" I think it's as simple as the old saying, "Out of sight, out of mind."

It's not part of the functional world view or the experience of the Western Christian. The devil is not unhappy with such a state of affairs, either. It gives him more operating room.

There's no buying into animism on my part. Though we do not see -- at least we in the West -- evidences of demonic activity (save in the intellectual / spiritual spheres), we are to be those who live by faith, not by sight. The Scripture is clear we have active and present spiritual adversaries. There is nothing amiss in rebuking the devil with the word of power.

Nor in being vigilant with a discerning eye.


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## turmeric

I strongly disagree that spiritual attacks don't happen in the West; they do, but I also don't believer in *addressing Satan or demons in prayer time!* I'm certain that we are not called on to do this since the Apostolic age has passed. However, we *are* called on to pray and ground ourselves in the promises of Scripture. We don't do enough of that in the West for sure! (I should speak for myself, I suppose!)


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## JBaldwin

Pergy, I, too, share your views, and I believe what my family experienced this past summer was clearly both an answer to prayer and an attack from the enemy. God so often uses the vices of our enemy to turn them around for good. 

While I don't think that we need to give undue attention to our enemy, I do believe that there are times when we must verbally claim our position in Christ and tell our enemy to leave us alone. We also need to rely on the prayers of others in those times. 

If spiritual warfare was only something for the times of the apostles, I don't believe Paul would have addressed the Ephesians on the issue, nor would have Peter and James told their readers to be sober and watchful and to resist the devil. 

_Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil._ Ephesians 6:11 ESV

_Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. _ James 4:7 ESV

_Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour._ I Peter 5:8 ESV


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## AVT

turmeric said:


> I strongly disagree that spiritual attacks don't happen in the West; they do, but I also don't believer in *addressing Satan or demons in prayer time!* I'm certain that we are not called on to do this since the Apostolic age has passed. However, we *are* called on to pray and ground ourselves in the promises of Scripture. We don't do enough of that in the West for sure! (I should speak for myself, I suppose!)



There is no cultural, racial barrier as to what Satan can do. No country is excempt from the wiles of the enemy.

I was in an IVCF Camp in the Southern part of the Philippines. We had many students coming from different schools and one convert is from a Muslim background with exposure to occult. While we were having our prayer time
she was speaking in tongues and praising God but with a mocking voice and laughter. A British missionary stood up, held her in the arm and commanded
the evil spirit to leave and give her peace. He said " I command you to leave this girl and give her peace".

There was fear in our midst and the campers were scared but immediately peace and a strong presence of the Holy Spirit calmed all of us.

The girl was delivered. Praise be to God!


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## Wannabee

I have some thoughts on "Why." Perhaps, because of the Judeo-Christian influence in the west, overt demonic activity would be recognized by many as such. Where there is no previous exposure to the gospel there is less opportunity for those so entrapped to see through it. Here our demonic adversaries use the garb of Christendom to lure people into just as deadly a trap. Easy believism, consumerism/materialism, psychobabble, authoritarianism and a host of pharisaical abominations plague our churches. But we often fail to recognize the satanic trappings in them because they appear as angels of light to us so often.
We must not be fooled. Satan is alive and well, and devouring many on the western face of the earth. The colors, flavors and smells may be different, but the result is the same - idolatry and eternal damnation.


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## BobVigneault

The difference between one region to another is merely the level of superstition. Superstition is the lever by which weak demons produce the appearance of great and frightening power.

They will make efficient use of the local superstitions and expectations of the groups, village, church, whatever and they will create schemes to fit those localities. Given the right superstition package, the demon can scare a group to death, destruction or at least exhibit control.

Meg is correct, we should never address the demons directly. This is no different than praying to an angel and we simply don't do that, there is no need.

I used to believe that the economy of the demonic world was power. I don't believe that anymore, they trade and work in superstition. Our own superstition and expectations 'empower' (actually it's all an illusion) the demons. Take away superstition by teaching a Biblical worldview and preaching the Gospel and removing fearfulness and you have removed the demons ability to affect people.


There are three beliefs regarding demons but only these first two are common:

1. Demons exist and they are powerful and frightening, and 
2. Demons do not exist, they are explained by natural phenomena and subconscious brain functions.

The 3rd, and I believe Biblical response is that demons DO exist but they were greatly weakened at the establishment of the Kingdom. Any real power is gone and they must rely on misconceptions, fears and superstitions but that is enough. Demons have studied humans since we've been here. They know our weaknesses, they know how susceptible we are to fear and that we can be controlled by it.

1 John 2:4 _Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. _

This verse tells us that it is the one who keeps the commandments out of gratitude and knowledge of God is the one who has perfect love. Many try to obey out of fear. That is superstition. If we fail we have a High Priest who makes intercession. There is no need to fear. John goes on to say in 4:12 _No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us._

We must love one another and again this perfects our love.

Finally in verse 16 he says


> So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.



John tells us how love is perfected and then gives us the most powerful weapon against demons - love that is perfected by God's removal of future punishment, love of our brother, knowledge of Him, hatred of the world casts out fear. Where there is no fear, there is no foothold for the devil. He may accuse but it has no effect, he will attack the sovereignty of God and the authority of Christ but we know Him.

The doctrine of the sovereignty of God and the authority of Christ allow us to pull the curtain back and see that the Great and Powerful Oz with his ability to breed fear is really just a little weakling who knows how to manipulate those who aren't as smart as he is. He may understand physics, psychology, chemistry, anatomy and the art of illusion but he is a toothless and defeated lion. Don't be fooled, don't be frightened.


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## Pergamum

Yes, I have never addressed a demon. 

But, addresssing a demon would NOT be the same as praying to an angel - it is not a prayer, it is a demand to leave.


But, having said this, I only talk to God. I take the Jude passage to mean that if the angels themselves would not rebuke satan, than I should not but ask God to defend me instead. Am I taking this passage out of context or even quoting it correctly (haven't been through Jude in awhile).


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## MW

Ephesians 6:12 applies to the whole of the Christian life. To think in terms of individual spiritual attacks is to "demonise" one area of evil, which is unhealthy and unbiblical. Job's trials were Satan's attacks, but Job saw every incident of his life as being under the dominion of God, not Satan.


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## Pergamum

armourbearer said:


> Ephesians 6:12 applies to the whole of the Christian life. To think in terms of individual spiritual attacks is to "demonise" one area of evil, which is unhealthy and unbiblical. Job's trials were Satan's attacks, but Job saw every incident of his life as being under the dominion of God, not Satan.



I don't buy this. 

It does appear to be times that we are specially attacked. 

Your view is representative of many in the West I was referring to above - almost a desire to hush up or ignore the spiritual/demonic. But the NT presents a very active foe that is attacking us besides just our own sinful lusts. 

Is your own worldview tainted by the Enlightenment? And would you admit this if it were so?




OF COURSE (DUH) every event in our lives is within the will of GOd. But spiritual attacks are no less real and authentic attacks because of this.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> Your view is representative of many in the West I was referring to above - almost a desire to hush up or ignore the spiritual/demonic. But the NT presents a very active foe that is attacking us besides just our own sinful lusts.



I would have thought that the view which includes all forms of evil as Satanic attacks was the one which was farthest from ignoring the spiritual/demonic. It seems to me that the highlighting of specific forms of evil and calling those "attacks" over and above other forms of evil is the view most likely to undermine the idea of Satan as an active foe, and certainly provides a convenient shadow under which Satan can mask his activity.


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## Pergamum

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your view is representative of many in the West I was referring to above - almost a desire to hush up or ignore the spiritual/demonic. But the NT presents a very active foe that is attacking us besides just our own sinful lusts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought that the view which includes all forms of evil as Satanic attacks was the one which was farthest from ignoring the spiritual/demonic. It seems to me that the highlighting of specific forms of evil and calling those "attacks" over and above other forms of evil is the view most likely to undermine the idea of Satan as an active foe, and certainly provides a convenient shadow under which Satan can mask his activity.
Click to expand...


You are only illuminating a half-truth. Satan IS always attacking, but he attacks especially in some cases. All forms of evil are satanic, yet Legion was much different from Ananias not giving what he promises. There needs to be an admission that there is a difference in type and degree.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> You are only illuminating a half-truth. Satan IS always attacking, but he attacks especially in some cases. All forms of evil are satanic, yet Legion was much different from Ananias not giving what he promises. There needs to be an admission that there is a difference in type and degree.



Obviously there are different degrees and types of evil. This is somewhat different from the idea of folk being targetted. I think if you measure evil by certain subjective material or mental phenomena then you could speak of such targetting, but the reality is that every Christian has to combat the evil of the world in various shapes and sizes every day. Ananias' lie was undoubtedly something insidious which required immediate divine action so as to bring fear on the church.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Matthew and Bob,

I appreciate your caution, Bob, but the devil is also known as a murderer, as well as a liar, and a deceiver. That he targets individuals should be clear from Scripture, and that he uses individuals to do this is also clear (namely Job, the Lord Jesus, Judas). It is from the _power_ of darkness I have been delivered when God translated me into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13). When tempting the Lord Jesus in the wilderness he exhibited supernatural power, which was, as we know, nothing compared to the might and wisdom of the Son of God.

When the devil or his minions infiltrate a soul -- demonize him or her -- it is a radical act of alien power. Yes, they have been granted this access through sin, the sins of parents (say, they practice witchcraft or other occult activity), or one's own. I am not talking of -- all the time, at any rate -- Biblical possession, but varying degrees of enslavement, psychologically, physically, spiritually to sin, aided and amplified by these aliens that are cloaked with invisibility.

We are told that we wrestle against principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph 6:12), and this does indicate individual responsibility as well as activity on our parts. Wrestling is intense personal conflict, and there are weapons used against individuals, such as "the fiery darts of the wicked" which I am told to quench using the shield of faith. As an offensive weapon I am given the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. This weapon I may wield in a number of ways; one is by the word of my testimony (Rev 12:11), another is by the preaching of the Gospel, and another is in my "resist[ing] the devil...[that he] flee from [me]" (James 4:7). I am told by Peter that my adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and whom I am -- as an individual -- to resist stedfast in the faith (1 Pet 5:8, 9).

When resisting a spiritual foe I am to use spiritual means / weapons: as I use the sword of the Spirit, I stand in and proclaim the word of my God and Savior, which is a word of power.

In John Bunyan's classic, _Pilgrim's Progress_, Mr. Great-heart is questioning newly-met Mr. Valiant-for-truth concerning his adventures, and asks why he did not cry out for help when overwhelmed. Valiant answers, “So I did to my King, who I knew could hear, and afford invisible help, and that was sufficient for me.” Then said Great-heart to Mr. Valiant-for-truth, “Thou hast worthily behaved thyself; let me see thy Sword;” so he shewed it him.

When he had taken it in his hand, and looked thereon a while, he said, “Ha! It is a right Jerusalem blade.” And Valiant, “It is so. Let a man have one of these blades, with a hand to wield it, and skill to use it, and he may venture upon an Angel with it. He need not fear its holding, if he can but tell how to lay on. Its edges will never blunt. It will cut flesh, and bones, and soul, and spirit and all.”​
It does seem to me, according to the Scriptures, that I as an individual will have extraordinarily evil days where I will be in "hand-to-hand" (wrestling) combat with spirit foes. My weapon is by the word of my mouth, wherein I take up the sword given me by God and wield it. I direct it against my adversaries, and they do indeed flee, and by His grace I withstand in the evil day, and having done all, stand (Eph 6:13).

Matthew, when you say,

I would have thought that the view which includes all forms of evil as Satanic attacks was the one which was farthest from ignoring the spiritual/demonic. It seems to me that the highlighting of specific forms of evil and calling those "attacks" over and above other forms of evil is the view most likely to undermine the idea of Satan as an active foe, and certainly provides a convenient shadow under which Satan can mask his activity.​
I would agree with this in the main. Yet sometimes an attack presents itself in a particular instance and I must deal with it, while remaining, as you suggest above, circumspect with regard to the entirety of my experience.

My one caveat to your statement pertains to the evil arising from within myself -- the "remaining corruption" -- and I do not attribute that to the devil. It is my own, and I repent of it when it manifests, and seek cleansing at that fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness (Zech 13:1).

When our young people (and we older ones!) give themselves to computer / video games they give themselves over to an alien realm, as I indicate in the story, The Game-Master. We are a species under siege, often distracted from the warfare by games, movies, TV shows, or other activities. Is not the antichrist spirit rampant and ravaging in these days?

How many sleep? How many are awake?

Steve


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## Tim

Thank-you all who have contributed. Let's keep this discussion going, as this is an important issue to work through, especially for western folks.


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## BobVigneault

Good post Steve,
I wish I had more time right now to address it. My two additional cautions would be, as we attempt to put together a spiritual warfare manual we must be oh so careful (as with any other doctrine) that we don't use an incident in the naratives of the acts of Jesus and the apostles to build a doctrine upon.

Yes Job was personally attacked by Satan and yes, he was wrestling with Satan but that is just info to let us know that there is more than meets the eye. Job never addressed, confronted or even mentioned Satan. As far as Job knew, he was wrestling with God and I contend he WAS wrestling with God's agent of wrath. Job took his contention to God, not Satan.

During the ministry of Jesus and the apostles, the demons had become hyper-active. Their power was greatly diminished by the cross and they were increasingly crippled by the teaching of the apostles (the spread of the Gospel).

The demon has not lost his 'power' to deceive anymore than David Copperfield has lost his 'power' to deceive. They are both very effective and very practiced.


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## Pergamum

Bob: Get me that manual when you are finished!

Yes, I do not support ever addressing anyone except God. If you suspect evil at work (isn't evil always at work), pray to GOD!

However, it is an assumption that there were "More than the usual amount of demons about" during the days of Jesus. It is not an unfair assumption but still an assumption. 


MY THEORY:

It appears to me that as the Gospel is proclaimed to a people-group, then the Strong Man is being bound and the cases of the demonic decrease. 

This means that in the Third World or in unreached areas we should not be surprised to see more of this type of stuff - it is the front lines where the Strong Man has not yet been bound, so to speak. 

Does this explanation make sense? There is room in this explanation for an amil and/or postmil eschatology of claiming the whole world (we march forward and bind the Strong Man in all the world) for Christ and this explanantion also allows for demonization even while not seeing a devil on every corner.


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## BobVigneault

That's not a bad explanation Perg for explaining increased activity in the Third World. I still contend that it's not the activity that is increased but rather in a culture steeped in animistic superstition the demons don't have to be so sophisticated because the peoples expectations of what demons do is so extreme.

The only element of spiritual warfare that I am pushing that is different than the majority is that I'm saying that demons are not powerful. Because they a spirits they can follow some avenues that we (illusionists) can't but they are still pretending to be powerful. Can a demon beat up a man? Yes, but so can my brother-in-law. Can a demon make things go bump in the night? Ditto for my brother-in-law. Can a demon make a pastor commit sexual sin? The demon isn't necessary BUT fallen men love to have that excuse. That's where we enable the demons. We have three enemies - the world, the flesh and the devil and we should fear them in that order. The anti-christian pattern of the world and my weak flesh is all I need to shipwreck my family and my faith. The demons, like Al Quada, are only two happy to take the blame for my downfall. The demons lost there power but they can make it appear like they have it back.


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## Pergamum

Thanks Bawb.

Can a demon make one physically sick? Can a demon affect my thinking? Can a demon put sin in my path or knock down a tree by the river to try to crush my canoe? Can a demon stir up a pagan people into a frenzy so that they desire to kill the local "witch" without thinkig too long and hard about it?


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## BobVigneault

Again Perg, give it the 'brother-in-law' test. I don't believe demons can read your mind or get in your brain but they certainly can make you extremely anxious and frightened just by manipulating things around you. A movie can mess with your head.

Demons and my brother-in-law cannot act independent of God's providence but they can mess up things around me. Let's just get rid of the spookiness though. The spookiness is superstition.

If a demon knocks down a tree then we assume that a demon can do all the things they did to that little girl in "The Exorcist" and God has to run and hide. Yes a demon can knock down a tree, if God permits it.


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## BobVigneault

I should say here, unless some don't realize, I have confronted demons and been attacked by demons and pretty much clobbered by them. Today I have two daughters that I am fighting for and praying to be brought into the Kingdom, who were caught in the middle. I'm not trying to minimize the effect and affect that they can have on folks, even the believer. They nearly destroyed my daughters and even now I am afraid I could lose Tiffany.

Nevertheless, I was my own worst enemy. Running to the deliverance ministers and Neal Anderson and Tim Warner, though these men mean well they are spreading superstition that plays into the hands of the demons. They are empowered by our ignorance. Demons are real but they are not real powerful. They depend on illusion, superstition and fear to cause you harm. Take away the fear and superstition and they have nothing.

My daughter (24) will not sleep in her bed right now. She has bad dreams, she said something strokes her arm and stomach. She believes they followed the bed from the last 'haunted' house we lived in, it's an antique. My wife wants me to get rid of the bed. I am going to go sleep in the room, in the bed and I already know what will happen - NOTHING!!!!!!!!

They won't bother me except through my family. Why? Because I'm more spiritual? NO!!!!!! My wife is Mary Poppins, she's practically perfect. I just will not buy what they (the demons) are selling. I don't fear them and they are powerless. I've looked behind the curtain. I won't play by their rules anymore.

I say all this to let you know I am testing my theories even now and so far I am finding the demons to be as weak as I had guessed.


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## Pergamum

Believe me, I am not running to Neil Anderson. Everything that the locals say not to do out of fear I do and tell them to see that demons cannot hurt a child of God. I have laughed off curses. My co-workers have cut down "sacred trees", bathed in sacred springs and destoyed piles of rocks that are bowed to.


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## Roldan

BobVigneault said:


> I should say here, unless some don't realize, I have confronted demons and been attacked by demons and pretty much clobbered by them. Today I have two daughters that I am fighting for and praying to be brought into the Kingdom, who were caught in the middle. I'm not trying to minimize the effect and affect that they can have on folks, even the believer. They nearly destroyed my daughters and even now I am afraid I could lose Tiffany.
> 
> Nevertheless, I was my own worst enemy. Running to the deliverance ministers and Neal Anderson and Tim Warner, though these men mean well they are spreading superstition that plays into the hands of the demons. They are empowered by our ignorance. Demons are real but they are not real powerful. They depend on illusion, superstition and fear to cause you harm. Take away the fear and superstition and they have nothing.
> 
> My daughter (24) will not sleep in her bed right now. She has bad dreams, she said something strokes her arm and stomach. She believes they followed the bed from the last 'haunted' house we lived in, it's an antique. My wife wants me to get rid of the bed. I am going to go sleep in the room, in the bed and I already know what will happen - NOTHING!!!!!!!!
> 
> They won't bother me except through my family. Why? Because I'm more spiritual? NO!!!!!! My wife is Mary Poppins, she's practically perfect. I just will not buy what they (the demons) are selling. I don't fear them and they are powerless. I've looked behind the curtain. I won't play by their rules anymore.
> 
> I say all this to let you know I am testing my theories even now and so far I am finding the demons to be as weak as I had guessed.



Bob this post was extremely helpful to me man, I think this is whats happening with my daughter, thanx now I no more of how to deal with her.


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## BobVigneault

Ricky I'm not saying I've solved the problem yet.

Things are dicey in my family.

My 24 year old is insisting it's demonic. Her room in our last house was spook central. 'Ghosts', sounds, etc. I had a grown niece who stayed in that room one night and she didn't know anything about the 'going's on' and she saw a women walk into the room and pass into the closet. My daughter had seen whole groups of people do that. So the spooky level was real high.

Deliverence ministers came in and things got real freaky.

Now I am trying to sell my wife and grown daughter on the fact that WE were enabling the demons by playing along. They aren't convinced and now my daughter is complaining again in our new home of more strangeness. She is very angry at me because she thinks I'm not taking her serious. I'm taking her serious, I'm just not taking the demons serious.

I'm so afraid my new and younger children will hear our whispers and then they'll be frightened and then here we go again. This is a struggle Ricky and I will pray for you.


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## Roldan

BobVigneault said:


> Ricky I'm not saying I've solved the problem yet.
> 
> Things are dicey in my family.
> 
> My 24 year old is insisting it's demonic. Her room in our last house was spook central. 'Ghosts', sounds, etc. I had a grown niece who stayed in that room one night and she didn't know anything about the 'going's on' and she saw a women walk into the room and pass into the closet. My daughter had seen whole groups of people do that. So the spooky level was real high.
> 
> Deliverence ministers came in and things got real freaky.
> 
> Now I am trying to sell my wife and grown daughter on the fact that WE were enabling the demons by playing along. They aren't convinced and now my daughter is complaining again in our new home of more strangeness. She is very angry at me because she thinks I'm not taking her serious. I'm taking her serious, I'm just not taking the demons serious.
> 
> I'm so afraid my new and younger children will hear our whispers and then they'll be frightened and then here we go again. This is a struggle Ricky and I will pray for you.



THis is very similar to my problem, thanx again brother, i needed this


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> My one caveat to your statement pertains to the evil arising from within myself -- the "remaining corruption" -- and I do not attribute that to the devil. It is my own, and I repent of it when it manifests, and seek cleansing at that fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness (Zech 13:1).



Thankyou, Steve, for your well thought out post. I fully agree with the general thought of the above statement, and that sin is our responsibility for which we ought to seek repentance and cleansing. But we should also acknowledge the working of Satan even in our remaining corruption. We see this clearly in the rebuke of our Lord to Satan in the person of the apostle Peter, Matt. 16. It was Peter's own carnal ignorance and prejudice which influenced him to dissuade Christ from the cross, but it was Satan himself who was an offence to the Lord Jesus. Believers savouring of the things of men and of the world are instruments of the evil one. We might also consider what the apostle Paul teaches concerning sinful anger and giving place to the devil, Eph. 4:26, 27. Our indwelling sin is undoubtedly the more heinous because of the usefulness the devil is able to make of it, which should compel us to wash away our filthiness in the blood and righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Bob and Ricky,

I've been praying about the things you spoke of.

The other day a curious "street" cat wandered into my house, and as my wife and I don't want animals inside I quickly chased it out (I'm also allergic).

From what I hear you saying, whatever power you do or do not grant them, these spirits are entering your home and family. I would not tolerate that a moment. Were I in your shoes I would start a short fast, say one or two days, and be praying both _against_ them (how else can one wield the "sword of the Spirit" if one does not speak?) and _to_ the almighty Savior and God, to rid and cleanse your home.

What Luther said concerning sin applies here: One cannot stop birds from flying around one's head, but one can keep them from making in nest in one's hair.

Bob, you said,

Demons are real but they are not real powerful. They depend on illusion, superstition and fear to cause you harm. Take away the fear and superstition and they have nothing.​
Scripture tells us the devil (with his demons) is a liar, murderer, tempter, seducer, accuser, deceiver, and thief. He does have access to our minds / hearts by way of projecting thoughts and images to our minds -- these are often what the "fiery darts" consist of. The shield of faith enables us to resist such: In the name of Christ I refuse and resist such thoughts, etc. How else will you resist the devil? You can't push him away. The shield of faith is an active force of the knowledge of God's keep power, believed in the heart and expressed verbally. The sword of the Spirit is the power of God's own word projected into the spirits, and they do flee, as His might and glory terrifies them.

The fact that spirits can materialize so as to be seen, and can influence physical objects, is sufficient power for the saint to war against it when it enters his / her home and family.

Deliverance folks and exorcists are not what is needed. Resistance must come from the people being oppressed, and as it is your own flesh and blood being so affected, even if not you yourself, they've crossed the line.


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## BobVigneault

Thanks Steve, I sure wish we were sitting in the same room discussing these things.

I'm not convinced that the devil projects things into our minds. We are controlled by what we desire most. The devil only has to know us well enough to present us with the proper stimulus or set of circumstances to 'control' our thoughts. We give foothold to the devil by entertaining misaffections.

You are correct, he is a deceiver and apart from Christ we want to be deceived. Anything is better than facing the wrath of God. Even the believer will entertain deceptions. Take ****. A demon will know a man's desire to view p*orn and a demon will make it easy for you to do so. Sin is so comfortable and desirable and the only protection is to resist. We resist out of gratitude for what Christ has done and a powerful affection for God (first commandment). Resist the devil and he will flee means you remove the snares from your life and you never cease in building a Biblical worldview. (You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.)

Worldview is the biggest battleground. Our worldview is the basis for our thoughts, principles and actions. Isn't it true that one definition of faith is a cognitive commitment? A cognitive commitment is that grace which God gives us to commit to certain first principles. 

Examples:
- There is a God and He has revealed himself in the Bible.
- God is sovereign over all things.
- All power and authority have been given to the Son.
- I have a Redeemer.

It is this Biblical worldview that is the focus of the devils attack. It is not a battle of power but a battle of truth. Satan uses illusion and delusion to achieve this but his attacks are superintended by God. His attacks will bring suffering, discipline, and for some they will bring destruction. ("Do not fear the one who can destroy the body, but Him that can destroy the soul.")

Illusion is an erroneous perception of reality or what is true. Delusion is a fixed false belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. The father of lies, the deceiver is the master of illusion.


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## AVT

People who are not superstitious can be demonized.

A co-worker came to me one day and said "I don't know if you will believe me . We bought a house and several times, there was loud knocking and pounding on my son's bedroom door, my son was asleep and no one was there but me, also , we find huge footprints in our carpet, we cleaned our floor and then it keeps appearing".

She is from a Roman Catholic background and so I told her, " I know you pray to Mary and all the saints to ask for help but the Bible tells us to call on God alone (God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost). Only God has the power to protect you from evil and He is the only one who can send Satan away from your home."

She started reading the Bible and asked God to protect her family and to send Satan away from their home. She stopped asking help from Mary and other saints.

When I asked her if the knocking persists, she replied "You know what? The pounding and knocking has stopped and the footprints are gone ! Her family prays every night and Jesus has shown His power to this family!

This is not in the third world or remote places of Asia, this is in the heart of the Research Triangle in America with the most well educated and not superstitious people.

The fallen Angel Lucifer rebelled against God and became the enemy of God and he is our enemy. I also believe that God ,because He is God can control all things including Satan.
Satan remains Satan, he works consistent with his evil nature and he hates God and his children! He is our adversary. Satan works to destroy God's people.

I seek comfort in God's sovereign promise "That all things work together for good for those who love the Lord." 

I wait for the great day when God will cast the devil and his angels to hell forever and forever. For now, he causes us grief and we can only beg for God's mercy to help us and to overrule his hatred and wicked crafts.

I pray, " And lead us not into temptations but deliver us from evil".

Amen!


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## BobVigneault

Thank you for sharing that Arlene. I do like to hear of experiences so I can apply my model to them.

You did begin by saying that "People who are not superstitious can be demonized" and then told us of someone who prayed to Mary and the saints.

Think about that again Arlene. Did you really mean to imply that this woman was not superstitious? She was soaking in it. We all have superstition to a certain extent. Superstition does not imply primitive beliefs, some superstitions are very sophisticated and even technological. Anyone tried those pads you put on the bottoms of your feet and they suck out toxins while you sleep? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. All they really do is suck money out of your budget.

Superstition:
1.	a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2.	a system or collection of such beliefs.
3.	a custom or act based on such a belief.
4.	irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
5.	any blindly accepted belief or notion. 

Wearing a cross because it somehow gives you a point of contact with Jesus is superstition. Going to church only on Christmas and Easter is superstition.


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## Mushroom

The devil and demons are completely under the authority of God. Just as God used the Assyrians to chastise and purify the Israelites, then destroyed them, so does He use the devil and his minions to chastise and purify His people, and in the end will destroy them.

The Israelites would have been in error to see their afflictions to be the result of the Assyrians' evil intent for them; they were the result of their own turning away from God. The solution was not to fear the Assyrian and ascribe great power to him and to attempt to skirmish with him, but to return to God in repentance and humility.

That the 'Assyrian' devil is being used to savagely attack those in rebellion against God should come as no surprise, and even more so in cultures that are militant against the gospel of His Son. He commands all men to repent.

Superstition is just another form of unbelief. It ascribes power to created beings or objects that is the province of God alone, so yes, the 'Assyrian' will be utilized to chastise that unbelief.

The christian finds through that chastisement that the solution is not to engage the 'Assyrian', but to turn instead to the One who rules over even that 'Assyrian', not to fear any that can only harm his body, but He who can destroy his body and cast his soul into hell. The armour of God has nothing to do with scrapping with demons, it has everything to do with believing the truth about God and operating accordingly. It is comprised of truth, righteousness, faith, the gospel of peace, salvation, and the word of God. These are not things meant to be used to engage the 'Assyrian', they are the means whereby we are to draw near to our Redeemer, trusting in Him, relying on Him, resting in Him. And when our own faithlessness (unbelief) moves our God to send His Assyrian to assail us, it is those things that we are to use 'fend him off' by returning to faithfulness. Unbelief is the root of all sin, and is the enemy we battle. God has decreed both it's existence and it's destruction for His glory. Quibbling with the agents He uses in that decree is pointless, we are to close this transaction with God Himself.

The devil flees when we resist him by believing God, not because we've beat him away, but because his Creator causes him to do so.


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## Leslie

Pergamum said:


> Thanks Bawb.
> 
> Can a demon make one physically sick? Can a demon affect my thinking? Can a demon put sin in my path or knock down a tree by the river to try to crush my canoe? Can a demon stir up a pagan people into a frenzy so that they desire to kill the local "witch" without thinkig too long and hard about it?



The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The confirmation of the diagnosis is in the treatment's being effective when that treatment only works for the diagnosis in question. Exorcism works for demonization, not for pneumococcal pneumonia or sickle cell anemia.

Can a demon make one physically sick? Yes. I had life-threatening weight loss, weakness, and neurological deficits which were only reversed when the demon was ordered to leave. A friend of mine was an invalid for over 5 years; the demon left and she was healed by working through the truth encounter approach of Neil Anderson. An anorexic girl was delivered from her "friend" who lived inside her head and told her what she could and could not eat. I was in Thailand at the time of my deliverance; the other two events happened in the states. 

The church as a whole has bought into the naturalistic, humanistic, mental-health model of illness which sometimes is appropriate. However, this model minimizes or totally dismisses the scriptural relality of the middle storey inhabited by good and evil spirits. The scriptures teach that they exist so they exist. If we buy into the NT gospels as presenting a balanced view of reality, we should expect one case of demonization for every two cases of medical illness (more or less). Why does the church which professes 'sola scriptura' buy into a non-scriptural view of reality? 

The passage in Jude prohibits railing accusations, not taking the authority granted us by being members of Christ. In other spheres we readily make the distinction--why not here? One tells his son firmly, "Clean up your room" and that's a tad different than railing accusations, e.g. "You filthy, no-good slob". 

There is nothing in the scripture to indicate that it is wrong to simply addressing the demon(s) with the authority we have in Christ. Since it works and it cannot be shown to be wrong, then it is right. It also provides corroborating evidence that the western view of reality is wrong and the scriptures are right. We shouldn't need that, however.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Brad,

The LORD used not only the Assyrians to chasten and bring repentance upon Israel, but other nations as well, as we see often in Judges. When His people cried out to Him with contrite hearts He would send judges and warriors to lead His people into battle, and to prevail. We see this with Gideon and the Midianites. This is typical of the warfare we ourselves wage, and of the chastening our Master often sends upon us.

What you say is true; this is the classic Reformed view, and in your remarks I hear the stances of Frederick Leahy in his _Satan Cast Out_ (BOT 1975 / 1990), and also David Powlison in _Power Encounters: Reclaiming Spiritual Warfare_ (Baker 1995). These books are highly recommended to those caught in the excesses and delusions of "the spiritual warfare movement".

I concur that preaching the Gospel and the victorious Christ, are the primary weapons in our warfare. And yet, in cases where we have aligned ourselves with the working of evil spirits, as in occultism, or the demonic deceptions and counterfeits of the Holy Spirit as in the "Holy Laughter / Toronto 'Blessing' " movement, or by other means, and find ourselves involved with forces of spiritual evil, what then? Or -- to use my own background -- what of the generations that were introduced to actual sorcery through the use of Biblically-forbidden drugs and potions, and thereby trafficked in the demonic, and became subject to their wiles and dark influence? This is widespread in America, though little talked-about.

What about -- and I think of a friend here -- some who have become victimized by deceiving spirits afflicting their minds? Supposed DSM-IV disorders diagnosed as OCD and yet are actually afflicted by spirits projecting blasphemous and wicked thoughts in their minds, impersonating the mental processes of the victims so that they think they themselves are thinking these things. Often they are just given medications to decrease the symptoms, whereas in reality this but masks the spiritual nature of the affliction, and one more saint is incapacitated from fully functioning mental / spiritual vitality, for the meds do tone down one's vitality. (I must add that not all OCD comes from spirits!)

Is this what Leahy calls (quoting Lloyd-Jones) "capitulation to phenomena" (p. 166)?

The saints up through the ages have accepted that the tempter can present images and thoughts to their minds, and we are to resist them. (Powlison has a whole chapter on his approach to "Resist the Devil".) While Powlison's approach is crucial to a sane and balanced view, I must differ with him (and Leahy) in some particular instances, and opt to embrace Penn-Lewis' view (in the book, _War on the Saints_, mentioned in an earlier post in this thread). She and Evan Roberts were involved in the Welch Revivals in the first decade of the 1900s, and saw much aberrant spirituality, due to the lack of a strong doctrinal basis in that revival. She was a Calvinistic Methodist (after Lloyd-Jones), and I'm not sure what Roberts was, possibly the same.

The primary _practical_ objection of Leahy and Powlison is that we will opt for "power encounters" against supposed spiritual evil rather than address the moral evil of the people supposedly afflicted, and this is sound. But it is not the whole story.

Thanks for your valuable remarks, Brad.

Steve


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## ManleyBeasley

Martin Luther yelled and even cursed at the Devil! I think it can be appropriate for us to express our hatred for the enemy.

I have some experience with demonic manifestation. When I was a teenager I was attacked demonically. I had trouble sleeping at night (weird experiences) and nightmares for 6 months. I finally talked to my Dad about it and he helped me alot (he's a pastor). He told me that "Satan only has the power over us through lies". This is clear through false teaching and ideals but was true for me in that I believed he had power that I should fear. The truth is, we should not fear him but fear God. He can do whatever God allows but if I don't fear him he has no power over me. As someone said before, trust in God. Nothing can happen unless God decrees it. God doesn't always remove the problems but teaches us to trust and rejoice in Him in the midst of the difficulty so He is glorified.


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## AVT

BobVigneault said:


> Thank you for sharing that Arlene. I do like to hear of experiences so I can apply my model to them.
> 
> You did begin by saying that "People who are not superstitious can be demonized" and then told us of someone who prayed to Mary and the saints.
> 
> Think about that again Arlene. Did you really mean to imply that this woman was not superstitious? She was soaking in it. We all have superstition to a certain extent. Superstition does not imply primitive beliefs, some superstitions are very sophisticated and even technological. Anyone tried those pads you put on the bottoms of your feet and they suck out toxins while you sleep? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. All they really do is suck money out of your budget.
> 
> Superstition:
> 1.	a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
> 2.	a system or collection of such beliefs.
> 3.	a custom or act based on such a belief.
> 4.	irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
> 5.	any blindly accepted belief or notion.
> 
> Wearing a cross because it somehow gives you a point of contact with Jesus is superstition. Going to church only on Christmas and Easter is superstition.




Okay Bob,

I agree with you that she has a background on idol worship being a Roman Catholic---so that qualifies her as having superstitious beliefs.

My question is, she told me ,

"All my life, I've never experienced this, it only happened when we moved to the house we bought".

Not all superstitious Catholics experience this (like me, I was once a superstitious Catholic before I got converted from darkness to light) but never experienced this strange phenomena.

Could it be that there is really the presence of evil spirit in the house that need to be cast out ? I am comfortable in asking Jesus to send them away...


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## Mushroom

Shouldn't the main question be "Why is God allowing this to happen?", rather than, "How is the devil doing this and how can _*I* _make him stop?".


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## BobVigneault

Mary,
we thought we were having great success when we were casting demons out of my daughter and my house. They responded readily to all the things we were told to do. I repent of all my family's sins throughout history. I walked my property and proclaimed that I was the owner. We anointed door posts with blessed olive oil. We found out their names and cast them out in Jesus name. We fasted, and it all seemed to work.

What was really happening was the demons were sucking us in, keeping us in the game. Yes a demon will cast out a demon or multiple demons will make it look like they are on the run. Christ and the apostles cast out demons as a sign of his messiahship the the coming of the Kingdom. Christ bound the strong man but his death throes are quite potent.

Neil Anderson, God bless him, is helping to keep people in the demon's game.


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## ManleyBeasley

Brad said:


> Shouldn't the main question be "Why is God allowing this to happen?", rather than, "How is the devil doing this and how can _*I* _make him stop?".



Thats basically what I meant. We need to depend on God through it. The real attack from the devil is not in manifestations but in causing in us fear and doubt so we don't trust God and rejoice through the trial. Luther didn't curse the Devil for the difficulties he faced but for the temptations to not face them faithfully.


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## py3ak

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are only illuminating a half-truth. Satan IS always attacking, but he attacks especially in some cases. All forms of evil are satanic, yet Legion was much different from Ananias not giving what he promises. There needs to be an admission that there is a difference in type and degree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously there are different degrees and types of evil. This is somewhat different from the idea of folk being targetted. I think if you measure evil by certain subjective material or mental phenomena then you could speak of such targetting, but the reality is that every Christian has to combat the evil of the world in various shapes and sizes every day. Ananias' lie was undoubtedly something insidious which required immediate divine action so as to bring fear on the church.
Click to expand...


Mr. Winzer, I found your posts on this topic quite thought-provoking. I do have one question. When we read in Luke of the devil departing from Jesus "for a season" are we not to conclude that there are ebbs and flows in the tide of demonic activity?

Now in general, ff Satan is transformed into an angel of light, would we not expect to see him rather more often in disguise than otherwise? Russellism is a proselytizing religion, in a way it doesn't seem that shamanism ever was.


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## MW

py3ak said:


> Mr. Winzer, I found your posts on this topic quite thought-provoking. I do have one question. When we read in Luke of the devil departing from Jesus "for a season" are we not to conclude that there are ebbs and flows in the tide of demonic activity?



That statement should be taken in the context presented by the biblical narrative wherein Christ was sent into the wilderness as the second Adam and true Israel to suffer temptation. It was a specific time of testing which was necessary as a precursor to His ministry, and one which was under the divine guidance of the Spirit of God. Hence the "season" was not a cessation of temptation -- Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin; the tempter rather sought a more adequate "opportunity" to subject the Son of God to his dominion.


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## py3ak

But doesn't that still mean that there was a _respite_? And if there are seasons of respite for us as well (as I hope there are), then aren't there times when there is more of an attack than at others? No doubt Job, for instance, faced temptations before his great season of trial came upon him; but a season of trial was also readily distinguishable from his life before and after.


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## MW

py3ak said:


> But doesn't that still mean that there was a _respite_? And if there are seasons of respite for us as well (as I hope there are), then aren't there times when there is more of an attack than at others?



The desire to immediately apply the temptation of Jesus to the situation of believers is pious, but not in keeping with the acknowledgement of His representative character. There is something unique in this temptation which is not characteristic of the believer's battle. There could be "seasons" of attack precisely because it was an attack on His mediatorial sovereignty. Outside of that unique temptation we know that His battle was one continual struggle with sin and its curse, as is the case for all those who have been brought out of darkness into His marvellous light.

PS. Believers undoubtedly feel the heat of the battle differently at times, but that is due to the fact that this is a fight of faith and a believer is not always functioning according to the full persuasion of faith.


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## py3ak

Thanks for the reply, Mr. Winzer. It answers the inconsistency which I thought might be present in your view.


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## AVT

BobVigneault said:


> Mary,
> we thought we were having great success when we were casting demons out of my daughter and my house. They responded readily to all the things we were told to do. I repent of all my family's sins throughout history. I walked my property and proclaimed that I was the owner. We anointed door posts with blessed olive oil. We found out their names and cast them out in Jesus name. We fasted, and it all seemed to work.
> 
> What was really happening was the demons were sucking us in, keeping us in the game. Yes a demon will cast out a demon or multiple demons will make it look like they are on the run. Christ and the apostles cast out demons as a sign of his messiahship the the coming of the Kingdom. Christ bound the strong man but his death throes are quite potent.
> 
> Neil Anderson, God bless him, is helping to keep people in the demon's game.




I agree with you that demons can play tricks on us and pretend they are gone. God has gifted some of his children with discernment.Satan is our most subtle enemy.

I have seen successful deliverance and I have seen one who was not delivered. It does not mean God has failed or it is a measure of God's faithfulness. God is always faithful but he allows evil to persists in other people's lives because of his perfect wisdom. Some people need to experience rock bottom before they will come to God. He also delivers people from evil in His own time. We cannot dictate God, he does as He pleases and He uses evil as a means. He ordains the means and the ends.

I think, I am in the same boat with you. I've renounced all the statues and the saints, asked forgiveness for all my sins and my family's sins up to the 4th generation. I have a brother
who is in touch with occultism and is deceived. It causes us grief, for 3 years now we have prayed that he will walk in the truth. But my brother continues in this darkness. I've warned him, told him that it is wrong but he won't listen. After wrestling in prayer and having many sleepless nights, I have real peace! God will accomplish what he has purposed in His life and I know my brother will go through a tough time. God's will be done!

I have prayed for you and your daughter today, our responsibility is to persist in prayer and
trust the Lord. I rest on the sovereign promise "All things work together for good to those who love the Lord".


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Daniel Dyke argues from the temptations of Christ that believers should be alert to the fact that the Devil seeks opportunities to attack "according to the several estates, conditions, and dispositions" (_Michael and the Dragon, or Christ Tempted & Satan Foiled_, "Doctrine 3: The Devil Fits His Temptations to our Dispositions," p. 90).


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## MW

AVT said:


> I have seen successful deliverance and I have seen one who was not delivered.



A successful deliverance is one in which the individual ascribes all power in heaven and earth to Jesus Christ. Thinking and acting as if demons have power over one's mental and physical condition is a mindset from which the individual requires the deliverance of faith.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Rereading this of Pastor Winzer, it occurs to me it may be understood two ways:

A successful deliverance is one in which the individual ascribes all power in heaven and earth to Jesus Christ. Thinking and acting as if demons have power over one's mental and physical condition is a mindset from which the individual requires the deliverance of faith.​
The first sentence is without doubt true.

The second is also true, insofar as believing that demons have power over a Christian reflects a lack of faith, and one does need deliverance from such unbelief.

But now _my_ believing that others -- including Christians -- may be afflicted by demons spiritually, psychologically (this includes mental, emotional, volitional), or physically, this belief on my part I do _not_ need deliverance from!

I do not want to seem as if I am withdrawing from my earlier statements. I am not. But I want to acknowledge truth when I see it.

The cure / deliverance of those I see so afflicted is as Pastor Winzer says: when "the individual ascribes all power in heaven and earth to Jesus Christ", this is the heart of it.

The practical application of that to individual circumstances and conditions must needs vary, and the counsel to those who "give place to the devil" (Eph 4:27) through sin so they do it no longer, must be given. And if through ignorance, understanding must be given.

Calvin, on this verse, says,



> Neither give place (τῷ διαβόλῳ) to the devil. I am aware of the interpretation which some give of this passage. Erasmus, who translates it, “neither give place to the Slanderer,” (calumniatori,) shews plainly that he understood it as referring to malicious men. But I have no doubt, Paul’s intention was, to guard us against allowing Satan to take possession of our minds, and, by keeping in his hands this citadel, to do whatever he pleases. We feel every day how impossible, or, at least, how difficult it is to cure long-continued hatred. What is the cause of this, but that, instead of resisting the devil, we yield up to him the possession of our heart? Before the poison of hatred has found its way into the heart, anger must be thoroughly dislodged.



I suppose we shall differ on this matter, and continue on our paths, and give account to Him with whom we have to do, on the day we see Him face to face. My He correct us (especially me!) from error, and from leading others into it as well!


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## Roldan

armourbearer said:


> PS. Believers undoubtedly feel the heat of the battle differently at times, but that is due to the fact that this is a fight of faith and a believer is not always functioning according to the full persuasion of faith.




*"I feel the dragon's breath on the back of my neck/ I don't see the fire but I'm startin to sweat/ its dark and its wet/desperate cry's from within/my fear is not of mortal men/ but the portal grimm and all forms of sin/which makes me thirst the earth again/I was born in the wrong but I was torn from my skin/the battle wages on but Word is Born Ima win!"*

This is the chorus to my rap son called "Roldan vs Godzilla"

MySpace.com - Reform Ordinance - Winter Haven, Florida - Hip Hop / Lyrical / Christian Rap - www.myspace.com/reformordinancemusic


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## MW

Jerusalem Blade said:


> But now _my_ believing that others -- including Christians -- may be afflicted by demons spiritually, psychologically (this includes mental, emotional, volitional), or physically, this belief on my part I do _not_ need deliverance from!



Steve, we are not in disagreement here. I suppose the clarifying question is, whether this "demonic" activity is moral or amoral. Can it be tested in terms of the classic formula taught in Scripture -- Jesus is Lord? Or is this activity perceived in terms of the horror genre, which ascribes an amoral, physical influence to demons? If the latter, then yes, we will have to concede that there is a basic disagreement; but if the former, then I see no reason to disagree over words where we are in basic agreement so far as concepts are concerned.

As an aside, have you read any literature relative to the newer translation of "demons" instead of "devils?" It seems to me that the very use of "demons" carries an association which conveys to the modern mind the idea of superior power, which is not inherent in the biblical use of the word.


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## CarlosOliveira

armourbearer said:


> As an aside, have you read any literature relative to the newer translation of "demons" instead of "devils?" It seems to me that the very use of "demons" carries an association which conveys to the modern mind the idea of superior power, which is not inherent in the biblical use of the word.



Could you elaborate on it, Matthew? I must confess this is new to me.


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## MW

CarlosOliveira said:


> Could you elaborate on it, Matthew? I must confess this is new to me.



Carlos, the reformation versions translated "devils," whereas modern versions transliterate "demons." A demon, in popular mythology, is an inferior deity. Classical literature describes their activity as prevalent over all of life. The choice to translate "devils" was likely with a view to avoiding the classical associations and simply to show that this kind of being was of the same class of nature with the Devil himself.


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## CarlosOliveira

armourbearer said:


> CarlosOliveira said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on it, Matthew? I must confess this is new to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlos, the reformation versions translated "devils," whereas modern versions transliterate "demons." A demon, in popular mythology, is an inferior deity. Classical literature describes their activity as prevalent over all of life. The choice to translate "devils" was likely with a view to avoiding the classical associations and simply to show that this kind of being was of the same class of nature with the Devil himself.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the explanation, Matthew! Does Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy deals with this distinction between "devils" and "demons"? I'm asking because I ordered it this week on you recommending it.


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## Pergamum

Are not the activity of demons "prevalent" over all of life? They are active and present in the world. I don't see what demons versus devils matters.


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## MW

CarlosOliveira said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Matthew! Does Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy deals with this distinction between "devils" and "demons"? I'm asking because I ordered it this week on you recommending it.



Not that I can recall.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> Are not the activity of demons "prevalent" over all of life? They are active and present in the world. I don't see what demons versus devils matters.



It's an issue of worldview. The Bible acknowledges such influence so far as moral values are concerned, James 3:15. The classic view sees demons as exercising a physical control over life, and that amorally. I think this thread has at least acknowledged an agreement that "demonic" influence is not amoral, but intricately tied to the problem of evil.


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## AVT

armourbearer said:


> AVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen successful deliverance and I have seen one who was not delivered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A successful deliverance is one in which the individual ascribes all power in heaven and earth to Jesus Christ. Thinking and acting as if demons have power over one's mental and physical condition is a mindset from which the individual requires the deliverance of faith.
Click to expand...


I agree that a successful deliverance is one that acknowledges that power is 
in Jesus Christ. The person has come to faith in Christ. No doubt about that. That's why the Gospel has to be explained to the person and the family and the person should understand the necessity of putting her/his faith in Christ who delivers us from darkness to light. 

My question is, how come Job, a righteous man was afflicted with boils? He was plagued with physical afflictions from Satan and how come there is a big change in the mental disposition of those who are freed from opression or possesion?

Have you seen a real demon possesion? I have seen one in the Philippines, a woman had enormous strength, 5 men could hardly control her.She was possessed after her family brought her to a quack doctor or faith healer. (This is rampant in the remote parts of the country.) She is not a normal person at all. She is angry with Christians and with those who pray but not angry with others. She can spot who is her enemy in the crowd.

I am a nurse and could recognize psychiatric cases and depression due to low serotonin in the brain and other causes but it is different when one is attacked by the devil. All faculties need to be freed.


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## MW

AVT said:


> Have you seen a real demon possesion? I have seen one in the Philippines, a woman had enormous strength, 5 men could hardly control her.She was possessed after her family brought her to a quack doctor or faith healer. (This is rampant in the remote parts of the country.) She is not a normal person at all. She is angry with Christians and with those who pray but not angry with others. She can spot who is her enemy in the crowd.



I see Westerners possessed with all kinds of things. One man I know is possessed with sexual pleasure; he now cannot look on a physical body without thinking of it in terms of the arousal it brings him. It is very sad. He needs to know the truth as it is in Jesus. The Lord seems to allow such things in order to show the slavery and depravation which follows from belonging to the kingdom of Satan.

The Bible provides the revelation for understanding the phenomenon of evil. It never leads us to believe that there is some kind of paranormal activity which influences the actions of human beings. It always insists that humans are responsible and will finally be judged for their own actions, whether they be good or evil.

Concerning your observations of "demon possession," I can only say that phenomena require principles in order to interpret them correctly. Because you accept the idea of demons exercising a physical power through human experience you interpret these experiences accordingly. From my own perspective, I do not believe the woman demonstrated a physical strength which was not natural to her. Rage is a powerful passion. Enraged people often do not know their own strength.


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## AVT

armourbearer said:


> AVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen a real demon possesion? I have seen one in the Philippines, a woman had enormous strength, 5 men could hardly control her.She was possessed after her family brought her to a quack doctor or faith healer. (This is rampant in the remote parts of the country.) She is not a normal person at all. She is angry with Christians and with those who pray but not angry with others. She can spot who is her enemy in the crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see Westerners possessed with all kinds of things. One man I know is possessed with sexual pleasure; he now cannot look on a physical body without thinking of it in terms of the arousal it brings him. It is very sad. He needs to know the truth as it is in Jesus. The Lord seems to allow such things in order to show the slavery and depravation which follows from belonging to the kingdom of Satan.
> 
> The Bible provides the revelation for understanding the phenomenon of evil. It never leads us to believe that there is some kind of paranormal activity which influences the actions of human beings. It always insists that humans are responsible and will finally be judged for their own actions, whether they be good or evil.
> 
> Concerning your observations of "demon possession," I can only say that phenomena require principles in order to interpret them correctly. Because you accept the idea of demons exercising a physical power through human experience you interpret these experiences accordingly. From my own perspective, I do not believe the woman demonstrated a physical strength which was not natural to her. Rage is a powerful passion. Enraged people often do not know their own strength.
Click to expand...



Armourbearer,

I think you are very smart, really , but a man who is possessed with sexual pleasure may not be really possessed by demons. It is just consistent with the nature of being a fallen man with a fallen soul and body.

1). It's because he is a man.
2.)Women dress provocatively, it hits you in the eye right away, many women are just to much to bear---no discretion at all.
3.) It's just the sin of the soul (the mind and will) that is expressed in the body.
4.)It's called sexual addiction , like nicotine addiction---we can rehabilitate patients. What do you think? We have a lot of drugs now that could lower male libido.
5.) Probably, if we put that man in an island alone without women and with a lot of things to deviate his mind, like sports,games, nature, fishing,hunting and etc...it will help.
6). he needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit so he can have more control of the sins of the mind will and body. Of course!

I really have honest questions about demon possession because I 've seen that the person does not behave within normal limits. That case in the Philippines, I was a nurse and the family called me to check her blood pressure. I had no clue she was possessed, she behaved like a patient and cooperated but later on got very angry. When I prayed and rebuked the devil, she fainted right in front of me. (Somebody yelled, "watch out, she is possessed"). I asked God for protection and she just fainted! Then ,when I left the house, she run out and 5 men tried to tackle her and she was very strong!

Prayer works, but I am still holding the position that evil affects the mind and body until someone can fully convince me that I am wrong.

Job 2;7 "So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head".


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## MW

AVT said:


> Prayer works, but I am still holding the position that evil affects the mind and body until someone can fully convince me that I am wrong.



Nobody will be able to convince you that you are wrong unless you cease assuming that what you saw was demon possession, and examine the "principles" by which you are interpreting the "phenomenon." I have no doubt that what you call demon possession will admit of a rational explanation in terms of normal psychology and behaviour where all the facts of the case can be accounted for.

Job 13:15, "Though *he* slay me, yet will I trust in *him*."


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## Pergamum

Matthew:

....And are you assuming that it is NOT demon possession? 



Or, are you merely saying that the treatment is the same, so no matter what the diagnosis, let's pray, read Scripture and defeat the enemy that way, whether it is demonization or just human sin.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> And are you assuming that it is NOT demon possession?



I am saying it is not demon possession, but not merely assuming it, because I think a rational consideration can explain the phenomenon when all the facts of the case are accounted for. Half the problem with the assumption of demon possession is that it usually only looks at an "episode," and makes no attempt to understand the individual in the context of his life. Hence a kind of "mystery" attaches to the "episode," which is then referred back to paranormal activity. But take into account the person's psychology, and one soon sees links in the chain of his behaviour which removes the mysterious element.


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## Pergamum

So have you thrown the possibility of demonization aside? Or are you merely wanting to give other possibilities as well?


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> So have you thrown the possibility of demonization aside? Or are you emrely wanting to give other possibilities as well?



"Demonisation" is a reality because people believe lies. Believe the truth and there is no realisation of the lie. Hence on one level, the phenomenological, I accept the reality, just as I accept that the idol is something to the idol-worshipper and deal with his conscience accordingly. On another level, the noumenal, such acceptance would require me to believe the lie, which is morally unacceptable.


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## AVT

armourbearer said:


> AVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prayer works, but I am still holding the position that evil affects the mind and body until someone can fully convince me that I am wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody will be able to convince you that you are wrong unless you cease assuming that what you saw was demon possession, and examine the "principles" by which you are interpreting the "phenomenon." I have no doubt that what you call demon possession will admit of a rational explanation in terms of normal psychology and behaviour where all the facts of the case can be accounted for.
> 
> Job 13:15, "Though *he* slay me, yet will I trust in *him*."
Click to expand...


Job was a believer and sees God's sovereignty in his situation. He knew that God is God and controls everything.

God allowed Satan to be Satan but controlled the bounds of what he could do.No argument about it.

Job was harrassed and inflicted with sufferings (mental, emotional and physical by Satan). Therefore: Satan has the ability to inflict mental, emotional and physical sufferings , as in the case of Job.

That girl that I saw was demon possessed. I've been in Psychiatric Hospital taking care of mentally ill patients but she is different. 

She was brought by her family to a quack doctor for healing and was subjected to the rituals of a Faith healer. I met a Baptist Pastor in that remote town who told me that she was indeed demon possessed and that the family approached him to help her. (I didn't know this when I checked the girl at first).The pastor was very mad because he told the family not to bring her to a faith healer and the family brought her twice. The pastor said "it just made her worse'.

The girl gets very mad at Christians and when I was praying silently, she was reversing my prayers. She yells when others pray. There was an atmosphere of fear. People were gripped with fear!

She also exposes the sins of Christians around her so they'll be thrown off.

The Pastor told me to ask forgiveness for all my sins that I could remember and ask God for protection because Satan is an accuser and will qoute one' sins in front of everybody. She did it to one Pastor to throw him off!

What are we going to do when people, non christians or christians are faced with this and come to us for help? Just tell them not to believe the lie?


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## MW

AVT said:


> What are we going to do when people, non christians or christians are faced with this and come to us for help? Just tell them not to believe the lie?



No, teach them to believe the truth. John 8:32.

Concerning the woman's telling people's sins, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the slanderer and he will flee from you," James 4:7.


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## AVT

armourbearer said:


> AVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are we going to do when people, non christians or christians are faced with this and come to us for help? Just tell them not to believe the lie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, teach them to believe the truth. John 8:32.
> 
> Concerning the woman's telling people's sins, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the slanderer and he will flee from you," James 4:7.
Click to expand...



She was not able to accuse the other Pastor (who was teaching me how to handle her). The Pastor fasted for more than a week (he told me), asked forgiveness for his sins and stood on God's assurance of forgiveness, the shield of Faith ...and the whole church prayed.

She was not able to harm me at all and I had geat compassion for her. The devil is an enemy and full of hate. I am glad God saved me!


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## Jerusalem Blade

Matthew and friends,

People say the same thing when seeking to negate the spiritual reality of our Faith: “a rational consideration can explain the phenomenon when all the facts of the case are accounted for”. They just don’t believe. As regards Christians who believe differently, we have the same data, but we interpret it differently.

I would like to give two examples of infiltration into humans by devils, and Christians at that! Not “possession”, but _infiltration_, so that some of their faculties have been given over to the control of these spirits. In both cases the infiltration is accomplished through deception, where the believer thinks a thing of God, and embraces it. Deliverance comes not from without, in the form of exorcism, but from learning the truth, and withdrawing ground voluntarily given to the activity of evil spirits, and obeying God according to the truth of His word.

Perhaps we in Reformed communions think all churches are sane and rational like we are (for the most part), but this is not the case. The first instance pertains to an extreme sector in the Pentecostal / charismatic assemblies – though the _principle_ which allows this to occur is in _all_ such assemblies, even the more “conservative” ones – and I refer to the Holy Laughter / Toronto Blessing movement. (The principle mentioned is “God still speaks directly to His people in continuing revelation apart from the Bible”.) In this movement there is “another spirit” (2 Cor 11:4) which is received – embraced – and these folks allow an alien power into themselves, thinking it the Holy Spirit. Some may say, “Well, this is just a psychological manifestation of bizarre emotional content”, or give another “rational consideration [to] explain the phenomenon”, but my discernment is otherwise – it is devilish (since some don’t like the word demonic). The spirits purport to be the Holy Spirit, but the counterfeit is apparent to those who are well acquainted with the Spirit of Christ. There are some immature believers – pastors among them – who evidently cannot discern, due to their spiritual senses being stunted through lack of exercise (Heb 5:14), their charismatic experiences having dulled and atrophied them.

If anyone here has ever been in a Holy Laughter meeting, it is bedlam, and madness, and it makes Benny Hinn stuff look tame. They deliberately court “another spirit” to indwell them. Some are deceived to think it the Spirit of God.

The second instance may involve even those who are not in charismatic circles. It pertains to false guidance, and a matter related to it, passivity of the faculties. There is so much of this false guidance among the charismatics – “the Lord spoke to me about this”....“I have this _leading_ of the Spirit, who gives me a _sense_ of what I am to do, and I trust this ‘leading’ ”....“I have this _feeling_ of great peace when I am doing God’s will; it is a _sensation_ like holy fire burning in my chest, and this can only be Him”....“I have this _sense_ of spiritual light that illumines my mind and heart when I am doing what He wants”. And it goes on. The principle of guidance for them is anything other than using one’s intelligent judgment after prayer and in accord with _Scriptural_ principles. The passage, “Lean not unto thine own understanding” (Prov 3:5) is used to negate the use of our mind and intelligent discernment, opting instead for a “spiritual” sign or leading. People who adhere to these leadings oft go far astray in terms of “hearing God’s voice”. Whose voice is it they are listening to?

A very popular Chinese writer of a generation or three ago, Watchman Nee – especially in his book, _The Spiritual Man_ – posited a way of walking with the Lord that involved discerning one’s own (human) spirit and how the Lord was moving in it by His Spirit. It led to an “inward-gazing” that sought to sense / intuit the monitions and movements of God’s leading within oneself. This teaching was brought into the “Deeper Life” and Keswick movements, some of which were far from charismatic.

The book I referenced earlier in post #3 (and elsewhere in this thread), War On The Saints, has chapters on deception in these areas, and the resulting passivity. If we think we have superior guidance from the Lord in the form of special leadings and signs, we will allow our intelligent judgment to atrophy, to shrink from disuse, as is the case with muscles when they are not used. After you have a cast on your broken arm for six weeks, when you take it off your arm is very skinny, the muscles not having been exercised for so long.

There are many dangers through these counterfeit leadings and imitations of the Holy Spirit; passivity of our faculties – our volition, our minds – reduces our usefulness to the Lord and our fellow men; we can become proud, seeing as we believe the Lord has favored us above our fellows, and we may become unteachable, rigid, arrogant, led here and there by forces not friendly to us. There are some who see lights in their minds, or hear voices, indicating which direction they should go in, using Isaiah 30:21 to justify this method: “And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.”

We give ground to the devil to interfere in our natural (that is, spiritual) functioning, through listening to his imitations of the Lord’s guidance. Does anyone think I am misunderstanding Calvin when I see him supporting my view in his comments on Eph 4:27, "Neither give place to the devil"?

Neither give place (τῷ διαβόλῳ) to the devil. I am aware of the interpretation which some give of this passage. Erasmus, who translates it, “neither give place to the Slanderer,” (calumniatori,) shews plainly that he understood it as referring to malicious men. But I have no doubt, Paul’s intention was, to guard us against allowing Satan to take possession of our minds, and, by keeping in his hands this citadel, to do whatever he pleases. We feel every day how impossible, or, at least, how difficult it is to cure long-continued hatred. What is the cause of this, but that, instead of resisting the devil, we yield up to him the possession of our heart? Before the poison of hatred has found its way into the heart, anger must be thoroughly dislodged.​
This is what William Henry Green, in his book on Job, _Conflict and Triumph: The Argument of the Book of Job_, says in his chapter 3, “Satan”:

There is a profound meaning in his appearing here among the sons of God before the LORD. It is designed to express his subordination and subjection to divine control. He cannot act untrammeled and at his own discretion....

Satan is the enemy of goodness and the enemy of man. With the powers of an archangel, and with the malice and subtlety of a fiend, he is intent on our destruction, and hesitates at nothing by which it can be accomplished. He pursues his mischievous designs with sleepless vigilance and untiring assiduity. Invisible to human eyes, he has all the advantage of secrecy, and taking his victims at unawares. He has his tools and associates in vast numbers of spirits of wickedness, who acknowledge him as their head, and are animated with a rage and cunning similar to his own; and even in friendly hands from whom no danger is suspected, and who little think whose commission they are unwittingly fulfilling. He has a control over external nature and over the bodies of men, which we have no means of estimating, but which can only be conjectured from such facts as the disasters he brought upon Job, and the maladies he caused in the time of our Lord. And, more than all, he has direct access to our souls: he can touch in some incomprehensible way the springs of feeling and conduct, and exert an influence over us, which it may make us shudder to think of. (pp. 21, 22)​
Green does not leave it at that, and concerning the temptations Satan is allowed to afflict us with, continues,

They should drive us to take refuge in God. One grand aim of the earthly discipline of God’s people, in all its parts, is to bring them to a closer acquaintance with him and dependence upon him....

Here precisely the temptations of the Evil One have their place in God’s great scheme of training. Every instinct of self-preservation in a gracious soul should lead it to cry mightily unto God for his delivering aid. Every temptation is attended with an imminence of peril, which should startle us out of our security, and lead us to fly for safety to him who alone can save.

He who has any just sense of his own weakness and frailty, and of the frightful evil of sin, must be incessant in his entreaties that he may be upheld in steadfastness by an almighty arm, and guarded from the assaults of one who succeeded even in enticing angels to their fall, and prevailed over our first parents in all the vigour of their early integrity, and to whom we shall prove an easy prey, unless One, stronger than the strong man armed, interferes for our rescue.

A proper sense of our peril will not only tend to beget the general conviction that in God alone is our help, but will, in addition, lead us to fasten upon those particular assurances and grounds of encouragement which are afforded by him for just such a crisis as this. The knowledge of the vast power of our spiritual adversary will lead us to take refuge in the omnipotence of God, to place a new value upon this glorious attribute, to avail ourselves of it as a basis of repose and confidence, to experience in our daily consciousness what it is to have a God of such infinite resources to supply our pressing need.

The almighty power of God is then no longer an abstraction to us – an intellectual conviction – but a present practical necessity; not a perfection which we distantly contemplate, but one by which we live and without which we perish. The dire necessity which drives us to the fount of life is, in its results, an incalculable blessing. And the temptation of Satan which terrifies the soul out of all self-dependence and creature-dependence, and compels it to find refuge in an almighty Saviour, has accomplished its gracious end. (pp. 23, 24)​
I realize this is a much starker and more serious picture of our danger from the devil than some would paint. We are often so caught up in the world, its entertainments and distractions, that we give little thought to the state of our minds and hearts. We minimize the activity of the devil and his legions to comfort our minds, and he is pleased with this picture we paint – it gives him more room to operate undetected. In some respects we are children of the world – although we _do_ belong to God – so caught up we are in television, fantasy tales, sports, that we lose the clarity of spiritual perception necessary to function as spiritual beings.

Pastor Winzer is right when he says that to live in the truth is sufficient defense against the evil one, but there are multitudes (of us) who stray from this highway of holiness into realms devoid of light. Not blatant sin, but subtle distraction to excess.

If I keep the garden of my soul well weeded of poisonous growths that come from seeds dropped from the air or spring up from corrupt depths, I shall have a quiet and clean place where the Lord is pleased to dwell by His presence. 

And I prepare myself for the “evil day” – the _especially_ evil day – (Eph 6:13), that it take me not unawares, that I “think it not _strange_ concerning the fiery trial which is to try” me (1 Peter 4:12), for Paul did say that “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). Satan thinks nothing of planning for 10 or 40 years to bring a temptation upon us designed to bring us down. What can guard us from such but staying near the Savior, abiding deeply in Him? 

“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12)​


----------



## MW

Thankyou, Steve, for yet another well considered post. I hope I am not misunderstood when I speak of rational explanation. I am not saying that we can know all that goes on in the angelic world. I am only speaking of the phenomemon as it comes to bear on human experience. The same applies to our faith so far as it is exercised by us. I would not say the object of our faith can be rationally explained; we require divine revelation to know God. But one might consult Hebrews 11 for numerous instances where faith as exercised by individuals admitted of rational explanation. Noah was "*moved* with fear," Sarah "*judged* him faithful," Moses was "*esteeming* the reproach of Christ." We might call these the psychological effects of faith. Therefore, while we acknowledge the object of our faith to be beyond rational explanation, nevertheless the working of faith in the person believing can be examined on rational grounds. I would maintain that the same applies to the working and effect of devilish activity on human experience.


----------



## Clay7926

Pergamum said:


> I take the Jude passage to mean that if the angels themselves would not rebuke satan, than I should not but ask God to defend me instead. Am I taking this passage out of context or even quoting it correctly (haven't been through Jude in awhile).



Perg--

As someone who was charismatic/pentecostal for most of his life, the passage in Jude convicted me as well (and still convicts to this day, even right now!). I don't think you're taking the passage out of context; if anything, it's a reminder of who truly has the power to rebuke the enemy.


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## rgreen

*What are you all thinking?*



BobVigneault said:


> I should say here, unless some don't realize, I have confronted demons and been attacked by demons and pretty much clobbered by them. Today I have two daughters that I am fighting for and praying to be brought into the Kingdom, who were caught in the middle. I'm not trying to minimize the effect and affect that they can have on folks, even the believer. They nearly destroyed my daughters and even now I am afraid I could lose Tiffany.
> 
> Nevertheless, I was my own worst enemy. Running to the deliverance ministers and Neal Anderson and Tim Warner, though these men mean well they are spreading superstition that plays into the hands of the demons. They are empowered by our ignorance. Demons are real but they are not real powerful. They depend on illusion, superstition and fear to cause you harm. Take away the fear and superstition and they have nothing.
> 
> My daughter (24) will not sleep in her bed right now. She has bad dreams, she said something strokes her arm and stomach. She believes they followed the bed from the last 'haunted' house we lived in, it's an antique. My wife wants me to get rid of the bed. I am going to go sleep in the room, in the bed and I already know what will happen - NOTHING!!!!!!!!
> 
> They won't bother me except through my family. Why? Because I'm more spiritual? NO!!!!!! My wife is Mary Poppins, she's practically perfect. I just will not buy what they (the demons) are selling. I don't fear them and they are powerless. I've looked behind the curtain. I won't play by their rules anymore.
> 
> I say all this to let you know I am testing my theories even now and so far I am finding the demons to be as weak as I had guessed.



I respect the opinions of all of God's people, but as I have been reading systematically through this thread, my incredulity has grown far beyond reasonable proportions. I wonder if I have just been zapped into some parallel universe!

I don't even know what to say.

We are strangers and pilgrims in this world. It is therefore no surprise that we do not fit in, and that daily we are confronted with difficulties and the contempt of the worldly, but we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

I do not believe that demons are out there stroking people and the like, but I am pursuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord.


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## Pergamum

rgreen said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should say here, unless some don't realize, I have confronted demons and been attacked by demons and pretty much clobbered by them. Today I have two daughters that I am fighting for and praying to be brought into the Kingdom, who were caught in the middle. I'm not trying to minimize the effect and affect that they can have on folks, even the believer. They nearly destroyed my daughters and even now I am afraid I could lose Tiffany.
> 
> Nevertheless, I was my own worst enemy. Running to the deliverance ministers and Neal Anderson and Tim Warner, though these men mean well they are spreading superstition that plays into the hands of the demons. They are empowered by our ignorance. Demons are real but they are not real powerful. They depend on illusion, superstition and fear to cause you harm. Take away the fear and superstition and they have nothing.
> 
> My daughter (24) will not sleep in her bed right now. She has bad dreams, she said something strokes her arm and stomach. She believes they followed the bed from the last 'haunted' house we lived in, it's an antique. My wife wants me to get rid of the bed. I am going to go sleep in the room, in the bed and I already know what will happen - NOTHING!!!!!!!!
> 
> They won't bother me except through my family. Why? Because I'm more spiritual? NO!!!!!! My wife is Mary Poppins, she's practically perfect. I just will not buy what they (the demons) are selling. I don't fear them and they are powerless. I've looked behind the curtain. I won't play by their rules anymore.
> 
> I say all this to let you know I am testing my theories even now and so far I am finding the demons to be as weak as I had guessed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respect the opinions of all of God's people, but as I have been reading systematically through this thread, my incredulity has grown far beyond reasonable proportions. I wonder if I have just been zapped into some parallel universe!
> 
> I don't even know what to say.
> 
> We are strangers and pilgrims in this world. It is therefore no surprise that we do not fit in, and that daily we are confronted with difficulties and the contempt of the worldly, but we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
> 
> I do not believe that demons are out there stroking people and the like, but I am pursuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Click to expand...



The devil can bother us, cause disease and blind peoples minds. 

Of course, you ought to believe that the devil is out there "stoking people and the like." To think that the demonic is not active is foolish. The thing is, we just cannot always know how this is manifested and it is usually manifested through unbelief and false doctrine instead of bells, whistles and pea soup being puked on an exorcist.


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## Rich Koster

I personally believe we are constantly being attacked, by Satan and his servants, in varying intensities. How? LIES and all of their derivatives....lying signs and wonders, lying messengers (masqueraders of light), the forementioned superstitions and so on. They try to get us into practices that God has clearly forbidden by repackaging them with some new name and "christianizing" them which boils down to lies. Their goal is to get us to not trust God and drown in fear and doubt. The armor illustration in Eph6 shows that we have a defense. Thank be to God that He wants to give truth to us for the asking.


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