# Personal Fellowship with God or Corporate?



## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 5, 2016)

So, I know the Reformed response that corporate worship is more so valued than private worship with the Lord. But, from my experience as a Christian, I believe most of my spiritual growth has come from personal communion with the Lord. I understand that corporate worship should be preferred over private worship, but where has the majority of your Christian growth come from? I have spent many hours in sweet personal Bible study, in deep affectionate prayer, in illuminating meditation, have listened to many great sermons, etc., while not being in the corporate gathering. I know these are aspects of corporate worship, but I think doing these things throughout every day of the week has profited me more so than the public gathering. I love the church and corporate worship, and think it is vitally important, I just wonder if the Lord truly blesses us more in corporate than He does in private. Or do we try to make it a superstition to say things like "God blesses a live sermon heard by someone on the Lord's Day more so than He blesses that same sermon heard in a bedroom on Tuesday night"? 

Also, I wonder if the technology gap has an influence on this matter. Today, we can listen to any sermon online, we have study Bibles, we have digital recordings to help us sing, we have commentaries, we have all sorts of books at hand on various topics, we have the Puritan Board to ask questions, etc. Could it be that the reformers really stressed the corporate gathering because the majority of people only had access to Bibles and preaching in the corporate assembly?

Again, I love corporate worship, and we do it twice on the Lord's Day. I just don't know if I can say it has been more valuable to me than my personal time with the Lord. Also, I can see that corporate worship seems to be more important to God in Scripture, I'm just wondering overall what is most beneficial for the Christian in this life. 

It is this letter from J.R. Miller to someone that caused me to start thinking about this. 

"What you want, is to get into close and perfect relation with Christ himself. He is a personal Friend. It is not the church that helps you. Whatever church you join, you will find that the vital thing, after all, is your personal relation with Christ. Let me say to you for myself, that after all my years of teaching and helping others, and all my experiences as a Christian, my whole creed is summed up into one little sentence — "Christ and I are friends." No friend in all the world is so near to me as he is. I trust him, I love him, I take everything to him, I lay every burden upon him. I go to him for wisdom, for help, for the love I need in my own heart. He is everything to me as Friend. Then for myself, my whole duty is summed up in being a friend of Christ's. He says, "You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you." This includes all Scripture commands.

In telling you this, I want to help you to understand that the essential thing in the Christian life is knowing Christ, trusting him, loving him, following him, having Christ for your Friend and being his friend. Then as to the church in which you will have your spiritual home, everything depends upon your convenience and opportunity. You want a place where you will feel at home, where the people will be congenial, where you can have some personal friendships. If you like some one church, if the preaching helps you, and if the services are interesting — why should you not make your home there for the present at least? Then if, in the future, some other church should prove to be more a home to you, you can readily transfer your membership at will."

I know most of you will defend corporate worship heavily, but I'm just trying to see this from a practical perspective without any biases. Thank you all very much.


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## Soonerborn (Jun 5, 2016)

Just a thought, have you ever considered that the reason you have profited from private worship is that is an outworking of the means of grace received in corporate worship? So God is providing in corporate worship the means to "fuel" your private worship...


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 5, 2016)

Soonerborn said:


> Just a thought, have you ever considered that the reason you have profited from private worship is that is an outworking of the means of grace received in corporate worship? So God is providing in corporate worship the means to "fuel" your private worship...



It's quite possible, and that is a good thought. I would say though, that for six out of the nine years of my Christian walk, I was in a church that was not reformed in any sense, and had a really bad understanding of the things of God. But thankfully I grew very much through other means outside of the corporate gathering it seems. I could be wrong, but this is what I recall.


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## TheOldCourse (Jun 5, 2016)

If God has provided certain means of grace and ordinances to which he has attached particular promises of converting and confirming grace through faith, you have faithfully participated in those ordinances, and you have found the evidences of those graces operative in your life, isn't it more reasonable to ascribe the benefits to those means and ordinances, regardless of where your affections would lead you to associate them?


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 5, 2016)

TheOldCourse said:


> If God has provided certain means of grace and ordinances to which he has attached particular promises of converting and confirming grace through faith, you have faithfully participated in those ordinances, and you have found the evidences of those graces operative in your life, isn't it more reasonable to ascribe the benefits to those means and ordinances, regardless of where your affections would lead you to associate them?



Hi, Chris, I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not quite sure. Can you please rephrase it in a wee bit of more simple terms, lol? Thanks.


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## lynnie (Jun 5, 2016)

Edwards in Religious Affections, part 3 If I recall correctly, has a few pages about how many of God's servants in the bible had powerful experiences with God while alone and gives a long description....and he was pastoring a church in corporate revival. 

My experience has mostly paralleled yours for maybe 25 years, but the first 15 years I was in churches that were in revival in my opinion. Outpouring, life, HS moving, whatever you want to call it. What Lloyd-Jones called the unction/anointing on the preaching was there. You looked forward all week to church, it was the highlight of life with Jesus Christ. And I was an avid bible and book reader so it wasn't my only source of scripture teaching. There have been times of it here and there in the past years, but not like it was. I know my sin can affect things but I don't think it is all the fault of my sin. 

I would pray earnestly for revival if I was you. For your church, for all the churches. God has been gracious to meet us in private, but He truly wants to bless us powerfully in corporate worship.


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## TheOldCourse (Jun 5, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> TheOldCourse said:
> 
> 
> > If God has provided certain means of grace and ordinances to which he has attached particular promises of converting and confirming grace through faith, you have faithfully participated in those ordinances, and you have found the evidences of those graces operative in your life, isn't it more reasonable to ascribe the benefits to those means and ordinances, regardless of where your affections would lead you to associate them?
> ...



Sure, you admit that public worship is to be preferred to private so I would assume you have a Reformed view of the means of grace and would agree with WLC 154:

Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?

A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.[992]

If you believe this, that Christ has established peculiar means whereby he has promised to communicate to his people the benefits of his mediation (including progressive sancitification--growth in grace), then it makes sense that when you experience those benefits you ascribe those benefits to those same means. Your experience or feelings may lead you to place them somewhere else but it's better to trust God's wisdom than our own. 

Look at it this way, most of the private means of devotion you describe (outside of prayer, which certainly is a means of grace) were alien to your average believer for most of church history (including a family Bible for home study). Were they in spiritual poverty as a result? I do not believe so, though I don't deny that these things are useful. On the other hand, believers seperated from the public means of grace has in all ages been an urgent concern of the church for the well-being of those so afflicted such that our Confession says that there is no ordinary possibility of salvation outside of the visible church.

For me, when you say "Also, I can see that corporate worship seems to be more important to God in Scripture", that would seem to end the debate.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 5, 2016)

lynnie said:


> Edwards in Religious Affections, part 3 If I recall correctly, has a few pages about how many of God's servants in the bible had powerful experiences with God while alone and gives a long description....and he was pastoring a church in corporate revival.
> 
> My experience has mostly paralleled yours for maybe 25 years, but the first 15 years I was in churches that were in revival in my opinion. Outpouring, life, HS moving, whatever you want to call it. What Lloyd-Jones called the unction/anointing on the preaching was there. You looked forward all week to church, it was the highlight of life with Jesus Christ. And I was an avid bible and book reader so it wasn't my only source of scripture teaching. There have been times of it here and there in the past years, but not like it was. I know my sin can affect things but I don't think it is all the fault of my sin.
> 
> I would pray earnestly for revival if I was you. For your church, for all the churches. God has been gracious to meet us in private, but He truly wants to bless us powerfully in corporate worship.



That was encouraging, Lynnie.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 5, 2016)

TheOldCourse said:


> Sure, you admit that public worship is to be preferred to private so I would assume you have a Reformed view of the means of grace and would agree with WLC 154:
> 
> Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?
> 
> ...



That makes sense, thank you very much. In humbleness, maybe you can help me figure this out:
With the means of grace - Word, Sacraments, and prayer - only the sacraments cannot be beneficial in private. Does this mean prayer and receiving the Word are not as effectual when we use them when we are at home or walking in the park?
What if the Lord in the 21st century is allowing us to benefit from the simple means of grace in ways which we have never been able to before?

In our corporate prayer meeting today, I wasn't too passionate, I didn't really pray from the heart, and I was thinking about well-rounded sentences as opposed to being humble before God. But I was just praying at home a few minutes ago, and my prayers were passionate, they were honest, truthful, deeply confessing, and from the heart. Does this mean the corporate prayer meeting was more effectual than the private prayer, though the private was more genuine? 

I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to see how this works in practical ways. Thank you for your wisdom.


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## brendanchatt (Jun 6, 2016)

Ryan, 
You've mentioned particular examples but you're question is general.

Here's an analogy. Eggs are better homemade than at the local diner. This morning my eggs at home tasted like toothpaste because I had just brushed my teeth. Yesterday's eggs were so much better at the diner.

You see, the general principle did not line up with your experience that time. If you're experience in public worship has been lacking, consider not only your preparation for anticipating church, but also how the foreign elements in worship might be affecting your experience. Maybe does your church have loud music, etc.?


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## earl40 (Jun 6, 2016)

What I have found in my life is that good teaching which produce, sermons, confessions, creeds, etc. etc. etc. that came from ordained pastors of the church has helped my walk in corporate and private worship. What I also love is when I witness baptisms and partake of The Lord's Supper confirm my faith in Jesus which is only administered in corporate worship, though seeing and doing such corporately it still helps me privately the rest of the week. What my wish is that in corporate worship the sermon would teach the whole council of God. I say this because I am saddened that most "deep" teaching is done outside of the corporate worship where we hear a sermon.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 6, 2016)

Is it not a false dichotomy to value personal—or corporate—fellowship with the Lord, one over the other? Both are absolutely indispensable to the saint _and_ to the church gathered, and both of immense value. And there may come a time when there is a famine of hearing the true word of the LORD (Amos 8:11,12,13) in the assemblies of His people. Do not set one over the other, lest you undermine either.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 6, 2016)

brendanchatt said:


> Ryan,
> You've mentioned particular examples but you're question is general.
> 
> Here's an analogy. Eggs are better homemade than at the local diner. This morning my eggs at home tasted like toothpaste because I had just brushed my teeth. Yesterday's eggs were so much better at the diner.
> ...



This is a really good point for me to really consider. Thankfully our worship is very simple and Biblical, but maybe I am lacking in my responsibilities. Thank you.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 6, 2016)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Is it not a false dichotomy to value personal—or corporate—fellowship with the Lord, one over the other? Both are absolutely indispensable to the saint _and_ to the church gathered, and both of immense value. And there may come a time when there is a famine of hearing the true word of the LORD (Amos 8:11,12,13) in the assemblies of His people. Do not set one over the other, lest you undermine either.



That is a very interesting view. Is this a minority view in reformed Theology? I think this is probably the way I see it most as of right now.


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## Jack K (Jun 6, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Jerusalem Blade said:
> 
> 
> > Is it not a false dichotomy to value personal—or corporate—fellowship with the Lord, one over the other? Both are absolutely indispensable to the saint _and_ to the church gathered, and both of immense value. And there may come a time when there is a famine of hearing the true word of the LORD (Amos 8:11,12,13) in the assemblies of His people. Do not set one over the other, lest you undermine either.
> ...



Steve is right when he suggests you began the discussion with a false dichotomy. Corporate and private worship do not compete with each other; they support each other.

Where did you get the idea that the Reformed tradition elevates corporate worship over private worship? I don't see that in the Reformed tradition. Read the Puritans and you'll see a strong love for both. Perhaps you're comparing traditional Reformed thought to modern American sensibilities. Those American sensibilities often treat corporate worship as useless unless it delivers a clear private-worship benefit. But this does not mean the Reformed view takes the opposite position. The Reformed view simply retains _both_ emphases.

It's worth noting that both corporate and private worship are biblical values, seen all over Scripture and especially in the life of Christ. Discussing their relative importance is a bit like debating the relative importance of food vs. drink. You might come up with some interesting arguments, but as a practical matter you'd better be strongly in favor of both.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 6, 2016)

Jack K said:


> Steve is right when he suggests you began the discussion with a false dichotomy. Corporate and private worship do not compete with each other; they support each other.
> 
> Where did you get the idea that the Reformed tradition elevates corporate worship over private worship? I don't see that in the Reformed tradition. Read the Puritans and you'll see a strong love for both. Perhaps you're comparing traditional Reformed thought to modern American sensibilities. Those American sensibilities often treat corporate worship as useless unless it delivers a clear private-worship benefit. But this does not mean the Reformed view takes the opposite position. The Reformed view simply retains _both_ emphases.
> 
> It's worth noting that both corporate and private worship are biblical values, seen all over Scripture and especially in the life of Christ. Discussing their relative importance is a bit like debating the relative importance of food vs. drink. You might come up with some interesting arguments, but as a practical matter you'd better be strongly in favor of both.



This makes sense to me, thank you. In my circle of friends, corporate worship is seen as primary and most important, and this is said to trickle down into family and private. Kind of like a pyramid, with corporate at the top. But it seems that you guys are saying all three are just as necessary, important, and beneficial for the Christian. Is this correct?


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## Jack K (Jun 6, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > Steve is right when he suggests you began the discussion with a false dichotomy. Corporate and private worship do not compete with each other; they support each other.
> ...



In the matter of _importance_, I see little practical value in debating the importance of corporate vs. private worship. Family worship adds an interesting element to the discussion because it is hybrid territory that's in some ways corporate and in other ways private. But why would we want to rate the relative importance anyway? All it might do is provide a rationale for neglecting one or the other, which isn't right.

But is either corporate or private worship _primary_ in some way other than importance? Interesting question. I imagine you could find ways in which each might be said to be primary. Off the cuff, I think I would say the structure of life in Christ is centered in the church, so if one were thinking structurally or authoritatively it might make sense to put corporate worship at the top of one's "pyramid." Someone else here could probably put that in more precise terms. I just contend there's little value in thinking of one as more important than the other.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 6, 2016)

Soonerborn said:


> So God is providing in corporate worship the means to "fuel" your private worship...



I wish that was true for me, but it isn't. I try and pray to do my best, but corporate worship is difficult in my case. Private worship and family worship is where I meet the Lord most powerfully. Like I said, I wish it was different.


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## brendanchatt (Jun 6, 2016)

I realize my post might suggest I take a hardline position but it was just for thought using the foregoing assumption. I haven't much entertained the main question.


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## Afterthought (Jun 6, 2016)

Public worship to be preferred before private is often mentioned.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 6, 2016)

Just a thought: a person can have no corporate worship, but have a private relationship with God, and still be a Christian. On the other hand, one can have much corporate worship, but no personal knowing of the Lord, and surely he wouldn't be a Christian. So, there must be personal communion with the Lord to be a Christian, but corporate is not necessary to be a Christian. Though it is surely important, salvation comes through the individual repenting, believing, and persevering. Just a thought.


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## Jeri Tanner (Jun 6, 2016)

Could it be that the loss of corporate use of the Psalms, of a good understanding of the Lord's Day, of the public reading of Scripture, the misuse of musical instruments- in other words, all the additions to and omissions of what is prescribed when we come together- contribute to a lack in edification when we gather? But even with these faults, I am sure that the individual's obedience and faithfulness in attending the public meeting results in untold blessings to us in private and in the home.


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## earl40 (Jun 6, 2016)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Could it be that the loss of corporate use of the Psalms, of a good understanding of the Lord's Day, of the public reading of Scripture, the misuse of musical instruments- in other words, all the additions to and omissions of what is prescribed when we come together- contribute to a lack in edification when we gather? But even with these faults, I am sure that the individual's obedience and faithfulness in attending the public meeting results in untold blessings to us in private and in the home.



I would say that the "could it be" you wrote is exactly why I have many problems with what is called worship today in the majority of churches that say they adhere to the WCF.


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## timfost (Jun 6, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Just a thought: a person can have no corporate worship, but have a private relationship with God, and still be a Christian. On the other hand, one can have much corporate worship, but no personal knowing of the Lord, and surely he wouldn't be a Christian. So, there must be personal communion with the Lord to be a Christian, but corporate is not necessary to be a Christian. Though it is surely important, salvation comes through the individual repenting, believing, and persevering. Just a thought.



It's an interesting thought, but we could also say that you can be a Christian without being baptized and baptized without being a true believer. However, God has given us _means_ for growth. It sounds like you are taking advantage of the means, but perhaps not understanding their unity to some degree.

From a different angle, too many Christians go to cooporate worship with the mentality of "what can worship do for _me_" rather than "how can I worship God and serve my brethren." Worship should benefit me _because_ I am loving my Lord and serving my brother. When we keep in mind how we interact with both tables of the law, we are living the way God designed us to live. This will truly have a personal benefit.


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## timfost (Jun 6, 2016)

On a related note, my pastor often speaks about preparing for worship. He regularly asks for prayer for his preparations and the Spirit's work, both for himself and the congregation. It's easy for me to think that it is the pastor's job to prepare for worship and all I need to do is to show up. Rather, he has challenged me to come to worship with preparation in both the Word and prayer.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 6, 2016)

Afterthought said:


> Public worship to be preferred before private



Thank-you for the paper by David Clarkson. http://fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/public.htm


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 6, 2016)

I think these are some verses that show that the priority of worship should be in every area of live. Knowing that it seems that the Lord desires us to love and worship Him in every aspect of life, do we have the right to say that one aspect of worship is better than another?

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”


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## Afterthought (Jun 7, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I think these are some verses that show that the priority of worship should be in every area of live. Knowing that it seems that the Lord desires us to love and worship Him in every aspect of life, do we have the right to say that one aspect of worship is better than another?


One should distinguish between specific worship and generic worship. We generally serve God in all of life, but there are times when we draw near to him to worship him (Leviticus 10). When we draw near to worship, we perform specific acts of devotion that God has appointed for such a purpose (e.g., Deuteronomy 12). When talking about "public worship being preferred before private," specific worship is the point of reference, not generic worship.

You may find these previous threads useful concerning the distinction between generic and specific worship: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/55196-Definition-of-Worship
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthr...fference-between-specific-and-generic-worship
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/88936-Scriptural-case-for-general-and-special-worship
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/88751-The-RPW-amp-Public-Worship




Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> In telling you this, I want to help you to understand that the essential thing in the Christian life is knowing Christ, trusting him, loving him, following him, having Christ for your Friend and being his friend. Then as to the church in which you will have your spiritual home, everything depends upon your convenience and opportunity. You want a place where you will feel at home, where the people will be congenial, where you can have some personal friendships. If you like some one church, if the preaching helps you, and if the services are interesting — why should you not make your home there for the present at least? Then if, in the future, some other church should prove to be more a home to you, you can readily transfer your membership at will.


I'll leave it to someone else to comment on whether Christ as friend has been properly expounded and applied in this instance, but it is not true (without qualification) that "everything depends upon your convenience and opportunity" in choosing a church. The way I see it, the church is the support of truth and made for the truth. Its faithfulness in teaching the truth and preserving it should be the first point of emphasis (the marks of the church). Why? Jesus is the truth and the church is his divinely instituted kingdom. The more we intrude upon the church with falsehood or ordinances of man, the less of Christ we will see in the church, and the more of the glory of man we will see. If one really cared about Christ as "friend," one would be zealous to see that his kingly and divine rights are faithfully upheld by a congregation that professes to be Christ's bride, and one would try to be like this friend in His zeal for the purity of God's worship. And the more Christ's bride reflects her husband, the more of this friend one will see in the bride, and the more desirable the bride will be as she reflects the glory of her husband.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 7, 2016)

Afterthought said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> > I think these are some verses that show that the priority of worship should be in every area of live. Knowing that it seems that the Lord desires us to love and worship Him in every aspect of life, do we have the right to say that one aspect of worship is better than another?
> ...



This is helpful. Thank you very much.


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## jwithnell (Jun 8, 2016)

Much here seems to rest upon experience in worship and a weak ecclesiology. While we can rejoice that God at times allows us experiences, what we feel regarding worship really matters not at all. What matters is if God has been glorified in the way he has decreed. He commands us to come together as a body to worship. At the end of the age, we see, through John's eyes, multitudes gathered together in worship. I'm not minimizing private worship, we see our savior so engaged and reformed folks have for centuries called for private, family and corporate worship. But our experience should not cause us to favor one over the other. 



> a person can have no corporate worship, but have a private relationship with God, and still be a Christian.


This is false. Outside the church there is no normal means of salvation. "Private relationship" has more in common with 19th-century pelagian revivalism than with confessional Christianity.


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## timfost (Jun 8, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> Much here seems to rest upon experience in worship and a weak ecclesiology. While we can rejoice that God at times allows us experiences, what we feel regarding worship really matters not at all. What matters is if God has been glorified in the way he has decreed. He commands us to come together as a body to worship.



I think that you're correct to caution against looking for an emotional experience in worship. We don't want to go the charismatic route. On the other hand, being in an intimate relationship with God _should_ evoke strong feeling. To worship God with the _whole heart_ is for our *intellects*, *wills* and *emotions* to be awakened and stimulated. I think you are guarding against _sinful_ emotions, or emotions that do not also involve the use of our intellects and wills as interacting with the Word of God (such an imbalance does not suggest worship with _the whole heart_).



jwithnell said:


> > a person can have no corporate worship, but have a private relationship with God, and still be a Christian.
> 
> 
> This is false. Outside the church there is no normal means of salvation. "Private relationship" has more in common with 19th-century pelagian revivalism than with confessional Christianity.



I'm not sure if there is disagreement between what Ryan said and what you're saying. Certainly many of us were first saved _outside_ of a church. You qualified your statement with "normal," a qualification I don't think Ryan was denying.

In summary, I think that it's important that we don't create dichotomies as we speak about corporate and private worship, sacraments, etc. Yes, God _can and does_ often first bring us salvation _outside_ of the church. But our salvation _does not consist in our justification alone_. Rather, our salvation consists in our justification, sanctification and glorification. Because of the comprehensive nature of our salvation, God has ordained that we take advantage of all of the _means_ set before us. There is a beautiful unity in all of these means and to separate them or create dichotomies as to their importance denies the holistic nature of God's provision.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 8, 2016)

It has been the case that in some lands where believers are ruthlessly hunted and persecuted (such as Saudi Arabia), and where converts from Islam face the death penalty, that God's people may have genuine saving faith—through internet or radio evangelism, etc—but be completely cut off from other believers, may not even know any other believers.

*Psalm 33:18,19* Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 
To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

I knew a man, an evangelical Egyptian Christian, who would evangelize over the radio, communicate with converts via text message, then would travel to the countries of the converts and would gather them into small assemblies so they could worship together.


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## jwithnell (Jun 8, 2016)

> To worship God with the whole heart is for our intellects, wills and emotions to be awakened and stimulated. I think you are guarding against sinful emotion


I'm more concerned about the subjective nature of our experiences. You see among the puritans a vibrant life of personal devotion. The problem comes when one either measures his faith by the experiences or tries to rank Christian duties by them. 

One might come to faith, as I did through reading, but if that new life is not engaged in the church, it will die. Ref: WCF 25.2


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