# Courtship



## ~~Susita~~

So I've met a young man and we're headed towards courtship but in order for that to happen, my father told me to write down what I want his involvement in this process to be like, otherwise dad won't do it and I'd like suggestions from y'all. It would be appreciated especially as I set criteria for myself - I don't want to miss something vital. (and remember I'm very open to suggestions since I've never done this before.)



> Spiritual protector for the both of us.
> 
> Screener. Is he physically fit? Doctrinally sound? Vocationally sound? Financially stable? Prepared academically for a possible life in the mission field? Will this man be able to nurture our kids (your grandkids) and raise them in the way they should go? I also want family worship to be a priority because that makes a family close and it is his calling as a father (his mandate) to be a spiritual leader in his household. Would this man lay down his life for his family like I know you would?
> 
> FOR ME: Physically fit? Doctrinally sound and desiring to raise Godly children? Fit to keep a household? Willing to submit to my husband's authority while also being supportive, encouraging, and loving?


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## turmeric

Sounds good so far. Let's hear from the married people.


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## RamistThomist

While I am not an authority, and have made many mistakes (nothing major) in this area, I do have some thoughts.

My fiancee' and I courted (are courting) for about 2 1/2 years. We are getting married in July. This is I speaking, not the Lord, yet I think I have wisdom on this matter.

1. There is no one "right" way to court. If someone else does it a certain way and it is a success, that doesn't necessarily mean yoy have to do everything they do. It might work for you, it might not.

2. Don't do silly things just to prove to the "worldly world" that you are not "dating." 

3. Honor the familial/ecclesial authorities. 

4. Regarding chapperoning: use common sense. Don't go to extremes like having a meter stick between yall on the couch and making sure at least 3 adults are in the room with yall. The main rule on chapperoning is do not put yourself in situations where people might even think you are compromising your honor. This isn't as hard as it sounds. Dont' be in a home with the two of yall alone, etc. Common sense stuff.

5. Have clearly defined and agreed upon goals (and those goals might change in a year or two. If they do, can both of you adapt to those changes? That happened to me and things, beside a few rough bumps, worked out well). In my opinion, this is what separates courting from dating. Can you see yourself spending the rest of your life with this person? Well, that is one of the reasons why you are courting; to find that out.


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## Pergamum

Before you marry anyone, do the following experiment:

(1) get a car with no AC
(2) Arange for an august afternoon date
(3) borrow several babies
(4) get stuck in rush hour traffic
(5) arrange it so a tire goes flat.


Then see how future hubby does. 

Anyone can talk a good talk, but the pudding-proof is when you're baking in August heat with a whiny kid and a lane full of cars moving like molasses. Every courting couple should do this.


CONGRATS SUSE!


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## Leslie

I'd say go camping, not the two of you alone, but perhaps with a married couple. By camping I don't mean a 50 foot Airstream but hiking into the woods for a week, overnights in open shelters. The Adirondaks are ideal. It's the acid test of character.


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## ~~Susita~~

Pergamum said:


> Before you marry anyone, do the following experiment:
> 
> (1) get a car with no AC
> (2) Arange for an august afternoon date
> (3) borrow several babies
> (4) get stuck in rush hour traffic
> (5) arrange it so a tire goes flat.
> 
> 
> Then see how future hubby does.
> 
> Anyone can talk a good talk, but the pudding-proof is when you're baking in August heat with a whiny kid and a lane full of cars moving like molasses. Every courting couple should do this.
> 
> 
> CONGRATS SUSE!



Righto! I'll have a sniper planted somewhere alongside the road to take out that tire. 

And yes, common sense stuff like not being alone in a house. Great. But I'm looking for how my father should be involved in this process - what his role is. It does vary from person to person, so I'd like suggestions.


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## RamistThomist

~~Susita~~ said:


> And yes, common sense stuff like not being alone in a house. Great. But I'm looking for how my father should be involved in this process - what his role is. It does vary from person to person, so I'd like suggestions.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]



A lot of that depends on your logistics (you'll figure it out as you go along). What I did, For what it's worth, when I wanted to see (and this still applies until a few days before the wedding) my fiance, I called her father and asked permission, told him what I planned to do (I live 90 miles away), who would chaperone us, etc. That's relatively simple and covers 90% of the ground. 

The rest is up to how your father wants to handle it. Again, there is no single right way and the books on courtship I have read are relatively silent on the issue. 

I will try to think of more.


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## TimV

Well, from a failure, I didn't bring my father into the decision and I ignored her father's ideas, and it came back to haunt me with 23 years of a bad marriage. Put the burden on him, and he'll come through. You shouldn't have to be making decisions. You aren't equipped, and neither is the young man. 

Tell you dad that it's his responsibility to guide you through it. If he won't, tell the Elders of your church what the story is and let them do it. The idea of a father's blessing isn't just some OT deal that's not in place because of Christ's death and resurrection.


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## MrMerlin777

Well,

I'd say that one of the things your father needs to remember is that he is "screening" a prospective husband for his daughter, and not a golfing/hunting/fishing/drinking(if he partakes) buddy for himself.


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## ~~Susita~~

I think he's doing this so that I know what I want in a man, will strive to be in a God-honoring relationship because we've set down the structure to build off of, and that the idea will be stuck in my head all throughout this process. I know that he will walk me through the list I provide him with, explain things, and more than likely add some things since he knows me best and I'm fairly sure he'll be asking me if I can hold myself to these standards. So once again, a father's involvement and some other things I should add for myself to the list I made in my first post. For you fathers out there, how would you help your daughter and her suitor through courtship? We're defining courtship as getting to know the young man and working out some issues with the goal of marriage in the end.

Now I'm off to worship with the saints - y'all have a great Lord's day!!


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## Davidius

Ivanhoe said:


> While I am not an authority, and have made many mistakes (nothing major) in this area, I do have some thoughts.
> 
> My fiancee' and I courted (are courting) for about 2 1/2 years. We are getting married in July. This is I speaking, not the Lord, yet I think I have wisdom on this matter.
> 
> 1. There is no one "right" way to court. If someone else does it a certain way and it is a success, that doesn't necessarily mean yoy have to do everything they do. It might work for you, it might not.
> 
> 2. Don't do silly things just to prove to the "worldly world" that you are not "dating."
> 
> 3. Honor the familial/ecclesial authorities.
> 
> 4. Regarding chapperoning: use common sense. Don't go to extremes like having a meter stick between yall on the couch and making sure at least 3 adults are in the room with yall. The main rule on chapperoning is do not put yourself in situations where people might even think you are compromising your honor. This isn't as hard as it sounds. Dont' be in a home with the two of yall alone, etc. Common sense stuff.
> 
> 5. Have clearly defined and agreed upon goals (and those goals might change in a year or two. If they do, can both of you adapt to those changes? That happened to me and things, beside a few rough bumps, worked out well). In my opinion, this is what separates courting from dating. Can you see yourself spending the rest of your life with this person? Well, that is one of the reasons why you are courting; to find that out.



Having been married for quite some time now, and having successfully completed a courtship a long time ago, I second Jacob's excellent counsel.


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## RamistThomist

And it can be hard and frustrating at times. Let's face it. Dating is so easier, I would imagine. No father to get in the way. Don't have to worry about chaperones. But we know better. And courting will be awkward. You really don't know the courtee that well (speaking generally). Neither does your father. It will feel weird at times. But it goes away.

As hard as it gets, it really is simpler. It is liberating also. You are freed from a lot of worldly expectations. After a while a lot of the more complex things are simplified.

But hey, at least you don't have this experience. 

YouTube - Rodney Atkins---Cleaning this Gun (Come on in Boy)


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## Puritan Sailor

Ivanhoe said:


> But hey, at least you don't have this experience.
> 
> YouTube - Rodney Atkins---Cleaning this Gun (Come on in Boy)



That will definitely be my future son-in-law's experience!


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## Mindaboo

My husband and I have decided that we will have our children court, my oldest is just 14, but we are already talking about it. I have been encouraging her to really think about what her standards are. She really wants to be a stay at home mom, so marrying someone who thinks she should work isn't going to be optional for her. I would say that you really need to think about what you are willing to compromise on, after all, you will be the one called to submit. I would think that being of one mind theologically would be of the utmost importance. You could go to your pastor and ask him for help. He sees the good and bad in marraiges all of the time, he would probably be able to give you some really useful information. Josh Harris has a book called Boy Meets Girl that talks about his personal courting relationship with his wife Shannon. Set your standard high, but be realistic.


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## ~~Susita~~

Yes, thank you folks but I want to know how the fathers out there expect to be involved in the process. *What will you do to aid the couple through courtship?*


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## moral necessity

Being a father of a daughter, I can relate to your question. I would first ask my daughter (Annah) if they relate well together. Do they have similar interests, do they enjoy each other's company, do they really like each other. I never asked my wife to marry me until after we had experienced several arguments together. I wanted to experience myself with her when we were at our low points, instead of making a decision while experiencing the "warm fuzzies" all of the time. I wanted to see if I was still interested in marrying her then. I would advise considering this. But, of significant importance is, do they get along and do they have sincere affection and love for one another. This is the glue that bonds the marriage together. Are they attracted to one another. Is it a mild attraction or a more serious one. Does the man enjoy relating with her for the sake of relating; does he enjoy her company; does he meet her needs of romance to a level at which she desires. On other issues, is he a mature believer; does he acknowledge his proper role as a husband and hers as a wife; is he able to lead a family spiritually; does he honor his parents and hers; is he willing and able to hold a job and spend himself for the benefit of his family.

To aid my daughter, I would try to be the objective analyzer. I would try to help her to distinguish between her emotional exitement and her rational thinking. I would encourage her to figure out what it is about him that makes her happy; what does she like that he does; what does she like that he is; what makes him stand out from all the others. I would also tell her to figure out what it is about him that she does not like, and to realize that she is not to marry him with expectations that he will change. In fact, a good question is, "if he will always be just like he is, and he will never change to be any different, would you still marry him?". Another good question is, "are you able to entrust to this man your own will, to be under his leadership and authority?". Throughout the process, I would remind her that she is marrying a sinner, and that she herself is one as well. So, perfection is not available, and contentment is demanded. She can only be as wise as she is able to be in her selection; God alone is sovereign over the outcome and result of her choice. Many marry with great foundations, only to find that the structure cracks and crumbles along the way, due to unforseen character traits and circumstances. Others marry with little forethought at all, and yet it blossoms into a beautiful garden over time. I would remind her that we can never determine the outcome; that we must leave these things up to God. Yet, we must be wise in our planning to the best of our ability, and not worry about those things that are not meant for our worry.

Blessings!


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## ~~Susita~~

Thank you, Mr. Plauger! That was exactly what I was looking for and I had totally forgotten about the emotional side of it. We younguns do tend to be twitterpated at times. 

Thanks again.


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## Zenas

Fightin's important. 

Seriously though, it's inevitable and you have to know how to deal with it. This ain't roses and bunny rabbits, this is fallen humanity.


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## Ginny Dohms

Susan,

Check out this online book:

CHRISTIAN EDUCATION IN THE HOME: HELP! MY DAUGHTER WANTS TO DATE

http://www.reformedpresbytery.org/books/courtshp/courtshp.pdf

This book is all about courtship, and may be good for you and your dad to read. In Appendix A, on page 21, there are pages of interview questions in numerous categories that a father could ask the prospective suitor. Of course not all are applicable to all circumstances, but is a good start in helping him, and you, to define his role.

Hope that helps.


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## Pergamum

If you cannot get along during a courtship, look for another pick. That's my two cents.


Also, you should ask the hard questions now, before you get twitter-pated and part quickly if the answers are not good. Part before emotional attachments occur. 

My friend in high school got attracted to a pretty smile and got emotional and physical involved a little and married a Catholic girl and dropped out of seminary. She is very pretty and very nice, but his spiritual life is basically "Do good and be nice to others" now.


Finally, never try to change a man. Beauty and the Beast is a fairytale. We just get uglier, smellier, hairier and meaner as we age.... and not the other way around...


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## CarlosOliveira

I second Mr. Plauger's recommendations and give it a hearty


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Zenas said:


> Fightin's important.
> 
> Seriously though, it's inevitable and you have to know how to deal with it. This ain't roses and bunny rabbits, this is fallen humanity.


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## Wannabee

There are some excellent answers so far. Perhaps someone hit on these, but I missed it if they did.

As a father he should have a sort of litmus test for any young man that comes a callin'. Questions that can't be answered with a simple yes and know are good for starters.
What are your goals in life?
What is your first priority?
What are other priorities, in order?
If you could tell someone one thing, what would it be?
If so, then do you tell people that?
If you were engaged to my daughter and she became paralyzed what would you do?
There are many life scenario questions that can be good questions to understand character better. It's not always a matter of having the "right" answer so much as revealing a biblical world view and thought process, with Christ at the center of it all. If his answers to the first questions above weren't centered on Christ then I would send him packing.
Another thing he needs to do is make sure the young man knows the value of you, in the eyes of your father. Dennis Rainey relates how he talked to a young man who was interested in his daughter. Basically, he took the keys to his house and car, his wallet, showed him the credit cards and cash in side, and set them on the table. The young man was asked if he would even consider stealing any of these items. When the young man adamantly replied that he wouldn't even think of it, Rainey replied that his daughter was infinitely more important than any and all of these things. Can you imagine how much I desire to protect my daughter when you consider how much we protect these fleeting temporal things?
He should also make sure the young man understands headship. He is not transferring headship (yet). The father is the head until he GIVES his daughter to another man. The young man is being considered and evaluated in order to ascertain whether or not he is a suitable spiritual leader and provider. And the daughter should refuse to allow her heart to be given to another man that the father has not yet approved as a suitable head.

May God bless your efforts with a beautiful marriage.


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## kvanlaan

> There are many life scenario questions that can be good questions to understand character better. It's not always a matter of having the "right" answer so much as revealing a biblical world view and thought process, with Christ at the center of it all. If his answers to the first questions above weren't centered on Christ then I would send him packing.



Not only that, I would also add that it is _how_ he answers, and his attitude toward the whole interview/interrogation. Is it a sober discussion with the proper gravitas, or is he keen on it like a job interview in which he wants to impress the socks off his boss-to-be? Once you're squared away on theology, attitude and character are the next two big ones in my book. There are plenty of doctrinally sound men out there who are not a fitting match for my daughter's hand in marriage.

I also would have to say that since my job as a screener is about the last child-rearing-esque thing I will give my daughter as a daughter in my home and not as a wife to another man, I will take it serious as a heart attack. I see it almost as the final exams for fatherhood of a particular child. We've got three girls, and are already grooming Esther (10 yrs old) for what she should be looking for in a man, and what should send up big red flags. In addition to the three precious girls to guard, we have six guard dogs to chaperone (some of whom are already adept at butchering barnyard animals and would gladly injure their fellow man to protect their sisters.) The youngest is only two, but he can scratch and bite with the best of 'em, if necessary.

One of my big issues in this is that this is the man whose lead my daughter will have to follow. I can't imagine my being _too_ careful in matters of character and faith in this instance. My daughter's future is wrapped up in the hopes, dreams and goals of the young man she loves. 

I hope that your beau makes it through the process, Susan. All the best!


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## Neogillist

*Puritan courtship*

Does anyone know an old book, or an essay written by the English or American puritans on the biblical way to court? I saw some essays on the duties of husband and wives on A Puritan's Mind, but I would be interested to find out how the puritans courted, or how they would approach it. I did hear a bit from Mark Denver who spoke at a confererence entitled "Sex and the Supremacy of Christ" where he spoke on how the puritans would value marriage. One interesting point he made, was that unlike today's culture, where even Christians have a tendency to first wait to fall in love, and then consider marriage, the puritans would first consider marriage, and then choose to love. Their emphasis was not "love then consider", but "consider, then love." I think this focus is indeed most biblical, and should be the very purpose of courtship.


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## Honor

I would say too... just a side note... watch the way he interacts with his parents. His mother in perticular, and they way his parents treat each other... when you see the way he treats his mother and the way the father treats the mother it is usually at least something to consider as to how he will treat you.


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## Pergamum

Here is a slightly on topic question:


It is sometimes mentioned humorously about the various ways in which potential father-in-laws try to warn or even intimidate potential suitors. Cleaning the guns, gentle reminders, to full fledged threatenings.

What is acceptable within Christian bounds?


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## Zenas

I dunno what's acceptable, but I will promise them if they mess with my daughter no one's going to miss them. 

(half kidding)


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## ModernPuritan?

Ivanhoe said:


> While I am not an authority, and have made many mistakes (nothing major) in this area, I do have some thoughts.
> 
> My fiancee' and I courted (are courting) for about 2 1/2 years. We are getting married in July. This is I speaking, not the Lord, yet I think I have wisdom on this matter.
> 
> 1. There is no one "right" way to court. If someone else does it a certain way and it is a success, that doesn't necessarily mean yoy have to do everything they do. It might work for you, it might not.
> 
> 2. Don't do silly things just to prove to the "worldly world" that you are not "dating."
> 
> 3. Honor the familial/ecclesial authorities.
> 
> 4. Regarding chapperoning: use common sense. Don't go to extremes like having a meter stick between yall on the couch and making sure at least 3 adults are in the room with yall. The main rule on chapperoning is do not put yourself in situations where people might even think you are compromising your honor. This isn't as hard as it sounds. Dont' be in a home with the two of yall alone, etc. Common sense stuff.
> 
> 5. Have clearly defined and agreed upon goals (and those goals might change in a year or two. If they do, can both of you adapt to those changes? That happened to me and things, beside a few rough bumps, worked out well). In my opinion, this is what separates courting from dating. Can you see yourself spending the rest of your life with this person? Well, that is one of the reasons why you are courting; to find that out.



in short- dont Go to Bob Jones University or PCC for your courtship needs


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## BJClark

~~Susita~~;



> Yes, thank you folks but I want to know how the fathers out there expect to be involved in the process. *What will you do to aid the couple through courtship?*


*

I'm not a father, I'm a mother, but I do encourage my husband to be involved in the process..

Have him hold this young man accountable for keeping YOU pure, and not allowing emotions (your's or the young man's) override sensibilities.

he should be asking the young man where he plans to take you, what he has planned for the evening, and HE should set the time on which the young man brings you home.

If there is to be a chaperone, will your father pick the person? Or will the young man? (I think the father should at least know the person and trust the person, and know that they will be looking our for what is precious to HIM..you).

he should be asking the young man questions about what HE wants in a wife,
and how he thinks that you might fit that role in his life.

And he should be asking you the same type of questions..what do you want in a husband? and how might this young man fit that role?

How does he plan to support a wife? What are his goals in life? Where does He see God leading him in ministry? Or does He think God is leading him towards ministry?

I'll have to think more on this, as I'm sure there are other things that will come to mind..*


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## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Here is a slightly on topic question:
> 
> 
> It is sometimes mentioned humorously about the various ways in which potential father-in-laws try to warn or even intimidate potential suitors. Cleaning the guns, gentle reminders, to full fledged threatenings.
> 
> What is acceptable within Christian bounds?



Shooting over their head.


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## ~~Susita~~

Ivanhoe said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a slightly on topic question:
> 
> 
> It is sometimes mentioned humorously about the various ways in which potential father-in-laws try to warn or even intimidate potential suitors. Cleaning the guns, gentle reminders, to full fledged threatenings.
> 
> What is acceptable within Christian bounds?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shooting over their head.
Click to expand...


Or just shoot his foot - that shouldn't murder him if you get him some medical help relatively soon


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## Puritan Sailor

Ivanhoe said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a slightly on topic question:
> 
> 
> It is sometimes mentioned humorously about the various ways in which potential father-in-laws try to warn or even intimidate potential suitors. Cleaning the guns, gentle reminders, to full fledged threatenings.
> 
> What is acceptable within Christian bounds?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shooting over their head.
Click to expand...


I was going to say rubber bullets...


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## Leslie

On the more mundane level, there are several issues that cause continued irritation in live-together arrangements of any sort, married or same-sex roomates. You might examine your habits in these areas.

Neatnik vs messy and Sanitized vs dirt-blind
Together-constantly-possessive vs mutual freedom to pursue other friendships
Tight-wad vs spend-thrift


Add to that, as regards children:
Disciplinarian vs. "ain't he cute?"

For each of these factors a person might be rigid or open-minded. For example, I can get along with a wide range of people on the neatnik vs slob scale but I'm quite rigid as regards discipline of children. If the two of you are poles apart on one of the scales (it helps to think of it as 1-10) and you are both rigid on this same scale, you are in for a lifetime of conflict if you marry. Better to know it now.


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## Pergamum

I second Leslie's fine comment. After the romance and newness dies, my socks on the floor really got to my wife and my wife's insistance on doing the dishes after EVERY single snack got tedious. And she always wanted to tuck the sheets WAY WAY under the bed (my feet felt imprisoned) and I am definuitely a "no-tuck" man. It is these small things that remain after you finish staring into each others eyes longingly....



P.S. we have now found our happy place. My wife has adjusted to Third World squalor quite well too and I value her neatness to keep me and my house hygienic and healthy.


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## BJClark

Some of these things you will need to be watchful of yourself..so that you don't turn a blind eye to things being led by your emotions..

Has he dated previously? If so, if your dad were to contact any of them what would they say about him? What would their parents say about him? If your dad were to call his friends what does he think they would say?

What is his view of marriage, a contract or a covenant? What does he believe the purpose of marriage is?

Does he carry any debt? If so, what are his goals to get out of debt?

What are his attitudes about money? yours?

Does he want children? if so, how many?

What are his lifestyle desires? Does he want to live in the suburbs while you want to live in the city? 

are you able to laugh together?

Are you able to connect when you communicate?

How does he handle conflict? How do you handle conflict? Do either of you avoid conflict altogether?

How does he treat his mother? his sisters? How does his father treat his mother?

How does he/and yourself view love? as a commitment or a feeling? 

Does he build you up? 

How does he treat waiters and waitresses?


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## Kevin

*Puritan Courtship*

To have an authentic puritan courtship expirience; 

1) ask you father to go to the local hardware store & buy a 4 or 5 foot length of 1"x10" pine board.

2) Then with the two of you standing (in your pj's!) a few inches from each other, have your dad place this board between you. 

3) While he is doing this your mum can begin wrapping you two together with a long piece of cloth. (7 or 8 yards seems about right.)

4) Once the two of you are thus 'united" your mum (or sisters) can stitch up the cloth to keep you "united".

5) Now your parents can assist you both in laying down on a bed.

6) If in the morning the stitches have not been (completely) removed & you are both still willing you may be married!!



God bless you both!! & I pray that you recieve the desires of your heart.


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## kvanlaan

Kevin, my first reaction was "oh my". 

And then, well, it sounded better and better.

Very interesting. (BTW, I like your father. Sounds like a fine man!)


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## ~~Susita~~

Kevin said:


> To have an authentic puritan courtship expirience;
> 
> 1) ask you father to go to the local hardware store & buy a 4 or 5 foot length of 1"x10" pine board.
> 
> 2) Then with the two of you standing (in your pj's!) a few inches from each other, have your dad place this board between you.
> 
> 3) While he is doing this your mum can begin wrapping you two together with a long piece of cloth. (7 or 8 yards seems about right.)
> 
> 4) Once the two of you are thus 'united" your mum (or sisters) can stitch up the cloth to keep you "united".
> 
> 5) Now your parents can assist you both in laying down on a bed.
> 
> 6) If in the morning the stitches have not been (completely) removed & you are both still willing you may be married!!
> 
> 
> 
> God bless you both!! & I pray that you recieve the desires of your heart.





Sorry; I wouldn't trust myself in a situation like that. 

P.S. Thank you!


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## Scott1

Be careful not to dishonor one another before (possible) marriage.

If you do find yourself travelling and staying at the same location during courtship (not suggesting you do), make sure you get separate accomodations, even if it costs more money, even if seems inconvenient.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Kevin said:


> To have an authentic puritan courtship expirience;
> 
> 1) ask you father to go to the local hardware store & buy a 4 or 5 foot length of 1"x10" pine board.
> 
> 2) Then with the two of you standing (in your pj's!) a few inches from each other, have your dad place this board between you.
> 
> 3) While he is doing this your mum can begin wrapping you two together with a long piece of cloth. (7 or 8 yards seems about right.)
> 
> 4) Once the two of you are thus 'united" your mum (or sisters) can stitch up the cloth to keep you "united".
> 
> 5) Now your parents can assist you both in laying down on a bed.
> 
> 6) If in the morning the stitches have not been (completely) removed & you are both still willing you may be married!!



For those curious about this practice, it is referred to as bundling.

Bundling (tradition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

It was illustrated in the Mel Gibson movie _The Patriot_.



> God bless you both!! & I pray that you recieve the desires of your heart.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I would never have been married with the way I snore if bundling was part of the deal with my wife.


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## RamistThomist

BJClark said:


> Has he dated previously? If so, if your dad were to contact any of them what would they say about him? What would their parents say about him? If your dad were to call his friends what does he think they would say?



Having dad call might not be the best idea. Even if the courtee is in the right, let's he made a few bad judgment calls (but nothing improper happened) and he dated some skank. Do you think she would really say nice things about him? How do you know she wouldn't lie? 

Or on a broader level: former "old flames" usually aren't unbiased. Now, if he dated mature girls in the church, that's a different story.


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## a mere housewife

Susita, 

I would disagree with those who say that you are incapable of making this decision. You are responsible for making it -- it is you who must say "I do, I will", and you are the one who must live with the consequences of your vows. This doesn't mean you don't need help, and I am glad you are conscientiously taking advantage of the wisdom of your dad and others. I second the common sense advice of Jacob, and the really godly, loving advice of Mr. Plauger; certainly we cannot accurately foretell outcomes but I believe that if you follow that kind of advice, God will bless you with a good husband. 

I would encourage you that your dad can't be 'made' to be more authoritarian than he is: he can graciously agree to help you enforce your own convictions, but if they are not his own, it is still your own convictions you are following. Ask him for his opinions on specific points where you know him to be wise, but again, he probably can't be made to have opinions he doesn't have. He sounds like a good man who wants to help you find a good husband; be grateful that he isn't simply using this situation as an opportunity to push his own preferences over yours; and don't expect him to be the courtship model dad. 

As regards some of the other opinions expressed-- I don't believe anyone on this board is guilty of these things but some of the expressions make me nervous. I've seen a mentality elsewhere, that the dad can use his authority in this area to make sure his daughter never sees the whites of the eyes of a young man who disagrees with him about something as trivial as dogs, and who is such a doormat that he can made to do anything -- build all the dad's barns and develop his property for free -- for the daughter's hand. This is an abuse of dependency that I hope no one would inflict on a small child, let alone a reasoning adult who is supposed to be capable of vowing their life away. In such situations, it is a complete myth that the daughters emotions are engaged and the father's are not, therefore he is qualified to judge. Besides the noble protective instinct, there are the rather ignoble though perfectly understandable emotions that arise when another man who is not a doormat but someone with his own convictions and authority, who disagrees on points that may irritate dad but are not necessary to godliness, with a completely different personality than dad's, comes along and attaches the daughter in a way dad never did. Many courtship materials I have read seem to incite the dad to gratify these ignoble emotions and abuse his authority in the situation by trying to make sure his daughter marries someone who is merely an extension of his personality and authority. This is extremely unkind to the daughter and absolutely disrespectful of a brother in Christ. 

Moreover, if two people are incapable of making this decision then they are incapable of living with the consequences, and unready to be married. More than likely they will make their own decision anyway. However I want to ask on what basis a dad does more than beg and plead with a daughter not to be attracted to and marry unsaved young men? If this is the kind of man she is attracted to, what does that say about the state of her soul? Is the dad really going to be unkind enough to some believing young man to try to force the unwilling daughter together with him, when the dad would not wish a girl with such values to be passed off on his own believing son? 

My own dear dad wanted me to marry a micro-denominationally approved and enthused fundamentalist etc., convictions I had already examined and could not desire in a husband. He tends to be more emotional than my mom and I knew he was having a difficult time letting me go at all (I'm the eldest daughter), and to someone different in convictions than he was, and whose personality was not the one he would have chosen (my dad's personality is very different from mine). If I had laid down my reason, assuming myself incapable of making a decision I had to live with, Ruben would not be my husband now. Rather I stuck it out through my dad's initial displeasure and he did consent happily later on. I knew my dad's reasons for disapproving, and knew they were not in keeping with the things he had taught me to value most. That is the two cents anyway of a very happily married woman, with a great Christian man for a husband and for a dad.


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## Pergamum

Thanks Heidi. There is a taint of hyper-patriarchalism that floats around reformed circles and I am glad to see a corrective applied. 

P.S. Call me a heathen, but my wife's father is an unbeliever and I would have married her no matter what he said. Also, I informed my father that I was marrying my wife and did not ask his permission (I was an adult at the time and geographically away and in the military). If he had not agreed with my choice I would have taken his advice and weighed it heavily, but I was my own man at that point.


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## Neogillist

Has anybody read Doug Wilson's "Her hand in marriage," which is practically a book on biblical courtship. Last summer, we went to visit friends in Moscow, Idaho who were very fond of Mr. Wilson and his church and gave a copy of the book to my parents. My dad read it, and was all excited to apply all those new "principles." Then, a few weeks later, I begun to read on FV and warned my dad that Mr. Wilson is involved in a serious controversy over a number of false teachings he has been promoting with other pastors. So then my dad took a more critical or moderate perspective on the book. Has any of you got an opinion on it? 

P.S. That "bundling" tradition is indeed amusing, but I don't think it was a central tenet of puritan courtship, especially as it was used by people of the prevailing culture of those days, and not by Reformed Christians specifically. Some puritans would have probably been radically opposed to it.


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## RamistThomist

On a broad, principle level _Her Hand in Marriage_ is awesome. 

Onto what Heidi said,

While your father's input is valuable, you are the one getting married, not him. Secondly, courting is not rocket-science. In some situations, as long as you two are in a safe, honorable environment, you will figure it out. 

There will come decisions where either you two will disagree, or agreeing you will still need extra help from mom or dad (in some ways Mother, or a trusted lady from church) would be more appropriate. 

1. Where will yall live?
2. Financial support?
3. How many, if any, kids? 
4. Theology--will they be baptized paedo or credo?
5. Views on sex, birth control, etc.

That is the hard stuff where your elders (familial or church) comes in. And don't make it "wooden." Don't force everyone to have a checklist to talk of at dinner. It will be easier on everyone to let these issues "flow." You have time. No hurry. That is the beauty of courtship.


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## jogri17

~~Susita~~ said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> To have an authentic puritan courtship expirience;
> 
> 1) ask you father to go to the local hardware store & buy a 4 or 5 foot length of 1"x10" pine board.
> 
> 2) Then with the two of you standing (in your pj's!) a few inches from each other, have your dad place this board between you.
> 
> 3) While he is doing this your mum can begin wrapping you two together with a long piece of cloth. (7 or 8 yards seems about right.)
> 
> 4) Once the two of you are thus 'united" your mum (or sisters) can stitch up the cloth to keep you "united".
> 
> 5) Now your parents can assist you both in laying down on a bed.
> 
> 6) If in the morning the stitches have not been (completely) removed & you are both still willing you may be married!!
> 
> 
> 
> God bless you both!! & I pray that you recieve the desires of your heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry; I wouldn't trust myself in a situation like that.
> 
> P.S. Thank you!
Click to expand...


Well let us remember that some puritans were better than others (cough cough Richard Baxter on justification). Also I'm going to copy this page to my hardrive in html format so I can use this. I'm asking a girl out (courtship can't work b/c her parents are non-christians like mine) in two weeks if God doesn't kill me first. Also I want to get your opinion on this. Would you date a non calvinist/reformed guy? And does that opinion aply to both genders? Just curious.


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## Neogillist

jogri17 said:


> ~~Susita~~ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> To have an authentic puritan courtship expirience;
> 
> 1) ask you father to go to the local hardware store & buy a 4 or 5 foot length of 1"x10" pine board.
> 
> 2) Then with the two of you standing (in your pj's!) a few inches from each other, have your dad place this board between you.
> 
> 3) While he is doing this your mum can begin wrapping you two together with a long piece of cloth. (7 or 8 yards seems about right.)
> 
> 4) Once the two of you are thus 'united" your mum (or sisters) can stitch up the cloth to keep you "united".
> 
> 5) Now your parents can assist you both in laying down on a bed.
> 
> 6) If in the morning the stitches have not been (completely) removed & you are both still willing you may be married!!
> 
> 
> 
> God bless you both!! & I pray that you recieve the desires of your heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry; I wouldn't trust myself in a situation like that.
> 
> P.S. Thank you!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well let us remember that some puritans were better than others (cough cough Richard Baxter on justification). Also I'm going to copy this page to my hardrive in html format so I can use this. I'm asking a girl out (courtship can't work b/c her parents are non-christians like mine) in two weeks if God doesn't kill me first. Also I want to get your opinion on this. Would you date a non calvinist/reformed guy? And does that opinion aply to both genders? Just curious.
Click to expand...


That's a valuable question to ask. Does "marrying in the Lord," mean that we must marry within the Reformed Faith, or can we be more open to other mainstream evangelicals. After some careful reflection, I personally came to the conclusion that it may be fine for a young Reformed man to court a non-Reformed girl, provided that she be not opposed to the doctrines of grace, and that overall she lives an exemplary lifestyle. The reason is that most Christian girls are not overly concerned with doctrinal issues. Doctrine is simply not a major part of a girl's psychology, (except for the odd one). Girls and women are typically more concerned about family, devotional and practical issues, and are more easily influenced by different winds of doctrine than men in general. Consequently, if a girl can be convinced of the doctrines of grace by her caller, she will have proven herself able to submit to the spiritual guidance of her future husband. Thus, there is no problem with courting a good evangelical girl, so long that somewhere along the line you can trust that she is submitting to your spiritual guidance. My friend actually just got married with a girl who was not a calvinist when they first met. He told me that it did not take long before she got to agree with limited atonement, then he got her to start attending the PCA church where my friend goes, and soon enough she was totally in love with the Reformed Faith.

However, the opposite is a nope. A girl who has Reformed convictions should only be willing to court with a young man who is already Reformed, since it is not in her duty to be a spiritual leader to her man. If the man does not already possess good doctrine, even if he has good devotion, he is not fit to become the spiritual leader of a Christian woman. There are however a few cases of girls being able to "draw" a evangelical young man to Calvinism, but for the most part the issue is riskier. Either way, a Reformed man or woman should not marry an evangelical who will not submit to the sovereignty of God. I don't have much time to prove this, but I'm sure many of you should agree.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Links and Downloads Manager - Christian Walk Links - Religious Courtship -- Daniel Defoe - The PuritanBoard


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## ~~Susita~~

Aaand here's a picture of us! Doesn't even look like me, but oh well.  This is II Lieutenant Joshua Carlson.


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## Ivan

You guys look great together. God's blessings on you both.


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## Simply_Nikki

I second the comment above. Thanks for the visual!  You two look great!



~~Susita~~ said:


> Aaand here's a picture of us! Doesn't even look like me, but oh well.  This is II Lieutenant Joshua Carlson.


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## etexas

Susan, one thing to put on that list that should be "above" romantic attraction is this: friendship, I am VERY serious, my wife and I have had our bumps, but during times of any strain, it is the fact she is my "best friend" that gets us through stuff. And there will be "stuff" even in the best marriages. I was talking to a friend about this, like me, he and his wife were friends before dating and romantic attraction, and finally marriage, he once told me, "We have lasted because when we have an argument, or are stressed with each other, I take her hand look her in the eyes and say "Let's just be friends for the rest of this day." and everything cools down." Susan, I hope I am not throwing cold water on "romantic" attraction, it is important. But REAL marriage is not like the stuff you see on the old romance films. It is two people (even if both are Christian) who have moments of being selfish, being moody, whatever. And you are with this person a LOT under the same roof. So in putting together your list for what you want in a husband put friendship WAY up there. I am happy you found a fellow Susan,he better be nice to you, or all you PB friends will do a beat down on him. Grace and Peace.


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## ~~Susita~~

Haha, thanks Tex. That reminds me of when I was little - I'd just had one of those little girl arguments with my best friend when I asked my mum, "Mom, who's your best friend?" She smiled and said, "Your dad." So yes, we definitely do value our friendship by focusing on other things aside from the physical. We both agree we want Christ as the center of our relationship, so we do things like pray with each other before we go to sleep (usually over the phone since he's stationed in Arizona).

Also, I think he tried joining the board but I'm not sure if it let him? Mods?


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## larryjf

Besides spending time with my daughter and the young man together I will also spend time with him alone. In spending time, i don't mean just being present, but interacting.

I will also go with him to meet his parents, siblings, etc. I think much can be gleaned by how a man is raised and by the way he treats his family...especially the women in his family.

I would visit his church with him and speak with his pastor.

I would interact with the young man's life in many areas:
piety
theology
responsibility
plans
goals
character


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## Ex Nihilo

Neogillist said:


> However, the opposite is a nope. A girl who has Reformed convictions should only be willing to court with a young man who is already Reformed, since it is not in her duty to be a spiritual leader to her man. If the man does not already possess good doctrine, even if he has good devotion, he is not fit to become the spiritual leader of a Christian woman. There are however a few cases of girls being able to "draw" a evangelical young man to Calvinism, but for the most part the issue is riskier. Either way, a Reformed man or woman should not marry an evangelical who will not submit to the sovereignty of God. *I don't have much time to prove this, but I'm sure many of you should agree.*



I agree. Makes it harder to find a husband, but essential. My dad (who is Reformed Baptist) would not insist on this at all, but I am pretty sure I would.

Unfortunately, I think some women -- perhaps through misguided maternalism -- like to be with men who are spiritually weaker than they are.


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## Scott1

Be careful, Susan.

It's important not to have much physical contact quickly in "courtship." I would set boundaries here, early. Discuss them, pray about them. This is for Christ's honor. It is also for your protection and his.

It is very difficult on a temporal level to find two Reformed Christians who have similar maturity and are yet compatible- not impossible, but rare. Pray for this specifically, constantly and I can only believe God will give you the desires of your heart.

I would be looking for someone who is at least as spiritually mature as you are and is a least "trending" Reformed. This is not a biblical mandate, only my opinion, and is pragmatically based.

The man is accountable to lead spiritually, the woman to submit to that. As fallen creatures, nobody wants to do their job. We are very good at inventing excuses for not doing what God requires. So, understanding that, it will be easier in one way (not that everything else will be perfect) if you start out with a man who is at or beyond your level of spiritual maturity, because he is supposed to lead in this. I can't make a Scriptural case for this, only an analogy to principle, and wishing to spare you from some difficulty that you otherwise can avoid. That way you can move on to the really important things like whether you can eat at restaurants on Sunday, do you tithe off the gross or the net, or deciding whether Dr MacArthur is really Reformed or not.


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## Zenas

I second friendship. I hang out with my fiancee' more than anyone else. She's just about the only person I hang out with after three and a half years. I know when we're old and wrinkly it won't matter. 

That reminds me of a comedy bit I heard, the summation of which is immediately applicable past its comedic application; that is, physical impefections can be "fixed" these days, but you can't fix stupid. If you can't stand a person for their personality, it's probably a bad idea because the rest goes south over the years.


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## ~~Susita~~

Nevermind, I broke it off. Apparently, he's attracted to women with flat hips and skinny legs, so my hour glass figure is not "attractive" to him. He had the gall to write an email asking me to "work on your lower body" when I ride my bike 40 miles every day and already work out a lot... Needless to say I'm disgusted. Totally didn't see something like this coming, but whatever.

So... I'm single. *wink wink*


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## Hippo

This is very sad, but better to find out now rather than later. It is embarrasing how shallow us blokes can be sometimes.


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## a mere housewife

I second Mike's sentiments.

(note: I was so tired that I read he sent you an email' to 'he sent another female', which was pretty appalling, even beyond the appalling content of the communication. [sheepish grin] I still don't believe what he did either manly or godly, but am removing my unfounded reaction to the female.)

I am truly sorry to hear this.


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## moral necessity

Hang in there...and remember that you are a treasured work of God, and that you are worthy of a man's affections and attention, even though this one will not offer his. God has something better in mind.

Blessings and prayers!


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## Poimen

As a member of the male sex but more importantly as a Christian man I have to say that I am embarrassed by his actions. To deal with you in this manner especially after you have begun courting is shameful.


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## matt01

~~Susita~~ said:


> He had the gall to write an email asking me to "work on your lower body" when I ride my bike 40 miles every day and already work out a lot...




The fact that he emailed you about this ridiculous problem shows his lack of maturity. You are blessed to find out this early in the relationship.


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## Ivan

A Second Lieutenant sent that email? Remarkable. Well, I don't know what to say other than, "How rude!!" 

Young lady, a good Christian man will come your way who will love you and cherish you. Lt. Carlson's actions were neither good or Christian. 

God bless you, Susan.


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## ~~Susita~~

Totally agreed about maturity level. Shoot, I haven't been called fat in such a "polite" manner since I was a little kid... Because I'm not fat! Haha. Anyway, I hope he finds his Barbie doll some day. 

And thank y'all for the advice all throughout - it's very appreciated! One good thing from this is that I'm much closer to my father now; it really made me trust him, appreciate him, and love him even more. Involving my dad really made the process easier and a lot more stress-free. It also helped me realize that no matter how hard he is, I'm still his baby girl and he'd protect me no matter what.


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## Zenas

Wow. What a donkey.


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## Pergamum

~~Susita~~ said:


> Nevermind, I broke it off. Apparently, he's attracted to women with flat hips and skinny legs, so my hour glass figure is not "attractive" to him. He had the gall to write an email asking me to "work on your lower body" when I ride my bike 40 miles every day and already work out a lot... Needless to say I'm disgusted. Totally didn't see something like this coming, but whatever.
> 
> So... I'm single. *wink wink*



YIKES!

Better now than later. See what happens to whatever super-skinny dream wife he is looking for after 4 kids!

Why do women want to look like heroin addicts in our day? MY guess is that the fashion industry and modeling is run by gay men who don't know what beautiful is.


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## Pergamum

Sounds like perhaps God's purposes were not centered around this guy at all but perhaps the main plan of God here was maybe to tie you and your Pop closer together so that there is a firmer home team when the next round of courtship begins. The relationship that God was focusing on perhaps was not the one that was most apparent but Father-Daughter is certainly a blessed relationship and it is a kind providence that He is orchestrating events to strengthen that bond.


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## Zenas

Pergamum said:


> ~~Susita~~ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind, I broke it off. Apparently, he's attracted to women with flat hips and skinny legs, so my hour glass figure is not "attractive" to him. He had the gall to write an email asking me to "work on your lower body" when I ride my bike 40 miles every day and already work out a lot... Needless to say I'm disgusted. Totally didn't see something like this coming, but whatever.
> 
> So... I'm single. *wink wink*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YIKES!
> 
> Better now than later. See what happens to whatever super-skinny dream wife he is looking for after 4 kids!
> 
> Why do women want to look like heroin addicts in our day? MY guess is that the fashion industry and modeling is run by gay men who don't know what beautiful is.
Click to expand...


Everybody gets old and fat eventually. Everybody. 

I think you're half right. It's run by gay men who think beautiful is an adolescent boy. Super-skinny women look like adolescent boys.


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## Timothy William

Clearly he wasn't an officer and a gentleman...

One advantage of courtship over other forms of romance is that you tend not to get too attached, which makes it far easier emotionally if you have to end the relationship because the other person turns out to be a fool. Don't worry too much about him though; there are many men who don't have such silly views on women, and obsession with a woman's body type is the kind of thing that most men grow out of as they age.


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## Pergamum

Zenas said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~Susita~~ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind, I broke it off. Apparently, he's attracted to women with flat hips and skinny legs, so my hour glass figure is not "attractive" to him. He had the gall to write an email asking me to "work on your lower body" when I ride my bike 40 miles every day and already work out a lot... Needless to say I'm disgusted. Totally didn't see something like this coming, but whatever.
> 
> So... I'm single. *wink wink*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YIKES!
> 
> Better now than later. See what happens to whatever super-skinny dream wife he is looking for after 4 kids!
> 
> Why do women want to look like heroin addicts in our day? MY guess is that the fashion industry and modeling is run by gay men who don't know what beautiful is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everybody gets old and fat eventually. Everybody.
> 
> I think you're half right. It's run by gay men who think beautiful is an adolescent boy. Super-skinny women look like adolescent boys.
Click to expand...



You always have such eloquence with your words!  A hearty amen to bluntness on this subject.


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## Ron

If I may be so presumptuous, for what it's worth:

Reformed Apologist: Some Thoughts on Dating

Reformed Apologist: Dating: Part II

Reformed Apologist: Deception Often Delays Marriage

Ron


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