# Is Christian Zionism kosha from a reformed perspective?



## Jon 316 (Mar 1, 2009)

We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel. 

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

Their work is primarily focused on helping them return. 

They were selling books which revealed they were coming from a Zionism perspective. (They were selling David Pawsons book). 

Is Zionism biblically sound? 

I find it difficult to suss out where some Israel focused groups are coming from in their soteriology at times. Hence the question.


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## Hippo (Mar 1, 2009)

I would say that if their work is centered on converting Jews to be members of the Catholic Church (not the Roman one) then fine, if not (be it to a distinct Jewish church or to remain practicing Jews) then it is not acceptable.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 1, 2009)

Hippo said:


> I would say that if their work is centered on converting Jews to be members of the Catholic Church (not the Roman one) then fine, if not (be it to a distinct Jewish church or to remain practicing Jews) then it is not acceptable.



I'm not sure their work is focused on evangelism at all. (I find very few missionary organisations are these days). 

Their work seems to be focused on helping the Jews return to Israel because the believe God is calling the Jews back to Israel for His end time purposes. 

That is all I really heard them say today.


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## Hippo (Mar 1, 2009)

The Church is tasked with proclaiming the Gospel, not with ticking boxes to encourage the second coming which I am sure God can handle all by himself.

This all smacks of dispensationalism and I can only imagine how Stephan (Acts 7) would have reacted to this kind of thing.


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## TimV (Mar 1, 2009)

Let us call it what it is. Childish and stupid.

I remember as a teenager a group of Australians who were arrested for trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock so a Jewish Temple could be built in it's place to hasten the End of Days.

In principle, how is what these people are doing different? 120,000 Palestinian Christians reduced to second class citizens in the land where they've lived for centuries, just to bring about what some fevered minds have decided is necessary for Christ to come again?

I was thinking about starting a "what sermon did you hear today" thread, since ours was on that exact topic. Pastor Martin quoted Luther. When asked if he knew the end of the world was tomorrow, what would he do. He said he'd plant an apple tree. Apple trees take a couple year to bear. The idea is that you live your life and fulfil your duties at all times. Since you don't know when the Lord will come again, you fight the fight without letting up, presuming that you could die at any minute.


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 1, 2009)

Christian Zionism is heresy.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

Anton Bruckner said:


> Christian Zionism is heresy.



Hmmm, would you like to unfold that a bit?

-----Added 3/2/2009 at 04:48:06 EST-----

Here is a link to the missionary organisations website FAQ section. Operation Exodus - Country Selector

Let me know what you think once you read it. 

also, here is a quote from it 



> *Does Ebenezer evangelise the Jewish people?*
> Ebenezer’s calling is to call out the Jewish people by prayer and proclamation, and to help them return to their God - given homeland. Were we to evangelise those we help we would not be able to work with the Jewish authorities, and so would not be able to fulfil our calling. We are certain that it is God’s will that His people return and are “planted in the Land”, and that this is their destiny. The prophet Ezekiel foresaw the day when God would pour out his spirit on the nation regathered to the land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> Anton Bruckner said:
> 
> 
> > Christian Zionism is heresy.
> ...



Ezekiel is also very clear (ch. 37) that when Israel returns to the land, they will have a king over a unified people. Obviously, modern Israel doesn't fit the fulfillment, even if we were to take the prophecy literally. And the apostles were crystal clear as to who the true Israel was, those who believe in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> > Anton Bruckner said:
> ...



The sentence I changed to bold type, is the view I have always held.

Is this what Zionists regard as 'replacement theology'? 

Regarding the return of Israel and the king ruling over a unified people. Could it not be the case that the people will return and then the king will emmerge? 

Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.


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## TimV (Mar 2, 2009)

> Is this what Zionists regard as 'replacement theology'?



Yes



> Regarding the return of Israel and the king ruling over a unified people. Could it not be the case that the people will return and then the king will emmerge?



Yes, and someone could anonymously put ten million dollars into your bank account tomorrow ;-) but it wouldn't be responsible to spend a great deal of time wondering if it will occur.



> Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.



Jews have been flocking to Israel from Eastern Europe so they could more easily get to America for decades. That's why the number of Jews are increasing in the US and even Western Europe faster than the number of Jews in Israel.

If you count that as somehow "no small thing" there's a guy named Harold Camping I'll introduce you to some day


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

How would reformed believers interpret the following?



> Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
> 
> 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
> 
> ...


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## TimV (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, we agree with it. Contrary to nature



> Mat 15:22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon."
> Mat 15:23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us."
> Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
> Mat 15:25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
> Mat 15:26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."



room was made for Gentiles, as most of the Jews were cut off from the church. And when those Jews who remained in the Church by converting to Christianity were augmented by elect Gentiles, then all Israel, i.e. all the elect from both peoples, what we call the Church, will be saved.

If someone is tempted to believe that the verses you quoted mean that every single member of the Jewish race is going to be converted at some future date, they would make a good Christian Zionist.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

> If someone is tempted to believe that the verses you quoted mean that every single member of the Jewish race is going to be converted at some future date, they would make a good Christian Zionist.



I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return. 

Or are we saying that God has no further purpose for the Jewish nation? Are we saying that all O.T prophesies regarding the Jews are now to be understood in terms of the church? 

What do people make of the following claim? 



> Christian Zionism is not new. " A Nation Called by God " (see and Britain) reviews the writings of great evangelical churchmen who cared about Israel in God's plan and in His word. These men included ... William Cowper, John Owen, John Wesley, Robert Murray McCheyn, William Wilberforce, Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Bishop J C Ryle.



Against Christian Zionism


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## TimV (Mar 2, 2009)

> I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return.



I guess I just don't see whether you are asking questions, playing the Devil's advocate, wondering out loud or trying to teach. What did you mean by bolding



> 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
> 
> 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
> 
> ...



What do you think verse 26 means? And when you say



> They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.



It makes it even more confusing. It seems that you are asking questions that you already know the answers to. You take it as a given that there are Bible verses that speak of Jews returning to Israel and that the significance of them doing so is no small thing.

Sorry again, and it's probably just me, but it's really hard to understand where you are coming from.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

TimV said:


> > I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you feel you need some context for the discussion you should check the first post.


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## TimV (Mar 2, 2009)

I did, and I quoted you.



> They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.


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## A.J. (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.



John, a Reformed answer to your question is provided by Robert L. Reymond in his essay Who Really Owns the "Holy Land"?



> *Five Propositions*
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


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## Pilgrim (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel.
> 
> They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.
> 
> ...



Maybe it would be better to ask them what they believe rather than coming on here and asking us about persons unnamed with whom probably none here have any familiarity.  I know you are looking for information on this issue and apparently don't know much about it, but if you ask a rather vague question as with the OP, the responses are going to tend to be all over the map or perhaps will not address what it is you are really looking for. 

From a strictly *confessional *Reformed standpoint, any form of Christian Zionism is probably not kosher since the confessions don't teach it. Most if not all confessional Reformed churches (including confessional Reformed Baptist churches) are not going to allow any form of Christian Zionism to be taught. This was one of the issues that led to a split in the Orthodox Presbyterian church in 1937, with the Bible Presbyterian church being formed that enshrined premillenialism in their version of the Westminster Standards. 

Christian Zionism is also somewhat of a nebulous term. Given the various understandings and usages of it, it could be applied to men and entities as diverse as John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, the Rapture Ready website, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle. It can include anything from historic premillenialists (i.e. nondispensationalists) who believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews will be restored to the land (Ryle, Spurgeon, Bonar, M'Cheyne) to more mainstream dispensationalists--whether classic or Progressive (MacArthur, Ryrie) to heretics who teach that the Jews do not need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

Pilgrim said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> > We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel.
> ...



Firstly, I am not sure what is vague about the question



> Is Zionism biblically sound?



Secondly, you obviously did not find it vague either, since your answer proved insightful and helpful. This only leaves me to wonder; why the expression of frustration in your first paragraph? It seems needless. Like I said, I dont think there is anything vague in the question 



> Is Zionism biblically sound?



If you feel that the context I included has only served to 'foggy the issue' I apologise. perhaps the question could have stood alone without the context. 

In regards to the group, I did include a link to their website which explains what they are about.


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## CDM (Mar 2, 2009)

Don't forget that many of those in Israel today (especially in government) who claim to be ethnic Jews are, in fact, not. 

It's not just American politicians and PAC's that use and mock the modern American evangelicals.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> Firstly, I am not sure what is vague about the question



As I noted in my previous post, "Christian Zionism" can mean anything from Spurgeon's views to the heretical dual covenant theology. (Everyone here would say the latter is heretical, but many would not consider Spurgeon's prophetical views to rise to the level of heresy, even though the majority on the board would disagree with them.) 

You didn't seem to be getting the kinds of answers you were looking for, and only posted the link to the particular group you were interested in some time later. That's why I stated it was vague, because it didn't get at what this group believes, but simply assumed that everyone knew what they taught based on the label of "Christian Zionism." 



> Secondly, you obviously did not find it vague either, since your answer proved insightful and helpful. This only leaves me to wonder; why the expression of frustration in your first paragraph? It seems needless. Like I said, I dont think there is anything vague in the question



See above. However, perhaps my first paragraph was too harsh and a little over the top.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

> Christian Zionism is also somewhat of a nebulous term. Given the various understandings and usages of it, it could be applied to men and entities as diverse as John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, the Rapture Ready website, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle. It can include anything from historic premillenialists (i.e. nondispensationalists) who believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews will be restored to the land (Ryle, Spurgeon, Bonar, M'Cheyne) to more mainstream dispensationalists--whether classic or Progressive (MacArthur, Ryrie) to heretics who teach that the Jews do not need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.



So, the reformed guys mentioned here, is their Zionism simply the conviction that the Jews would return to Israel?


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 2, 2009)

Zionism and the Reformed faith are not compatable.

Zionist wish to "restore" national Israel and ignore the "Israel of God" to the tune of numbers of oppressed Palestinian Christians.


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## Knoxienne (Mar 2, 2009)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Zionism and the Reformed faith are not compatable.
> 
> Zionist wish to "restore" national Israel and ignore the "Israel of God" to the tune of numbers of oppressed Palestinian Christians.



Lebanese Christians also.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?



This is only my opinion but I believe it can be supported with Scripture as well. I tend to believe that God was through with national Israel and it's "shadows" when He brought the temple down in 70AD. Just as Christ had prophesied in Matthew 24.


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## Knoxienne (Mar 2, 2009)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> > So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?
> ...



I agree. I believe the modern nation of Israel to have been created out of political expediency more than anything else.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> > So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?
> ...


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 2, 2009)

I believe Paul is speaking here of the "Israel of God", His church. All of which will be saved.


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## CovenantalBaptist (Mar 2, 2009)

Brother Jon,

These may be of help to you:
Respecting "Messianic Judaism" which is related to Christian Zionism: 
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Not-Jewish-Baruch-Maoz/dp/1857927877/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236034908&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Judaism Is Not Jewish: Baruch Maoz: Books[/ame] 

And for a Reformed amillennial take on Romans 11 - see this book beginning on p.141:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Future-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236034762&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Bible and the Future: Anthony A. Hoekema: Books[/ame]


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## Jon 316 (Mar 2, 2009)

CovenantalBaptist said:


> Brother Jon,
> 
> These may be of help to you:
> Respecting "Messianic Judaism" which is related to Christian Zionism:
> ...



Thanks for the book tips (I have so many books I need to add to my list). I checked out the reviews to get a feel of what they are about. What is the authors take on Zionism?


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## Galatians220 (Mar 2, 2009)

I've owned the Maoz book "Judaism is Not Jewish" virtually since its publication. It's a worthwhile reference addition to any Reformed believer's library, and it's worth multiple "reads." Just my  worth.

Margaret


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 2, 2009)

I just preached the latter half of Exodus 12, the Exodus itself. Doctrinally, the focus for the message was God's *effectual call.*

Long ago, I recognized that Israel-the-nation has always been a composite of Abraham's natural seed and converts/incorporated. But in my preparation for this week's sermon, this passage strongly reinforced my view.

Once you've gone through the plagues, and the original Passover preparation and keeping, you see how God is speaking to the world in words that call to salvation on one hand, and harden in judgment in another. Upwards of 2.5 million people answered the call of God to leave Egypt. Even with a miraculous "baby boom," there is a simple chronological roadblock to the creation of this numerous a people, simply relying on the biological heirs of Jacob.

Exodus 12:38 explains that this was a "mixed multitude," on the one hand you had Judahites, Ephraimites, Benjamites, etc.; on the other hand there were such like Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Edomites, to name a few.

Now, we should note Moses' style here, in chs. 12 & 13, as he interweaves instruction on the creation of Passover, and its future memorial celebration around the events of the Passover-and-Exodus event.

Note then v.41, "At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt;" and following verses that define those who may join in the sacramental meal of unity, note vv.49-50, "'There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.' All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron."

Moses point seems to be this: If you were a part of the Passover-and Exodus event, if you responded to God's effectual call, there was ONE LAW that applied, whether you could claim a "pedigree" to Abraham or not--_if you came out, then the appellation "people of Israel" belonged to you._ If this were so in ages to come "in the land," how much more so when all these people, including aliens, answered God's call to leave the accursed land?

See, God was already answering his promise to Abraham to make him the father of many nations, calling into *one people* those from many kindreds, tongues, tribes, and nations. Here in the "nativity" of the nation (to use Calvin's felicitous expression) was an inaugural fulfillment of even that eschatological promise.

**********

"Israel" has from its humblest beginnings been a _conversion_ people, around a genetic core. It was stupidity and blindness of massive proportions that made many Jews take unreasonable pride in their stock, or in their circumcision, or in any outward identity.

Once the Christ was come, any reason to confine "Israel" to one stock also disappeared forever. When Jewish stock come to faith in Christ, they have returned to Israel (which is Christ), and to that ancient, eternal kingdom promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.

*************

A final thought: (this had *nothing* to do with my sermon, BTW)

Since ethnic Jews from that region historically are *indistinguishable* from Palestinians, and many other nationalities from there, it is worth pondering that many Palestinians, whether Christian or Moslem, have to be the descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity in the days of the Apostles and afterward. They fled Judea under persecution from the religious Jews, or in advance of the Romans in AD67 (as Jesus told them to do).

Naturally, many of them would have moved back home into those regions after the Romans finished their depredations and deportations. So these people cared not one bit to call themselves "Jews" anymore, both for political, as well as for theological reasons.

So, now we have this tragic situation of having Jewish-sponsored ethnic cleansing and subjugation literally of their own kin, who centuries ago stopped considering themselves as "Jewish", but who have as much claim genetically to Abraham, and even more than many religious Jews of today would have.

Sure, many of those families left the Christian faith during the centuries, and some were converted to Moslem faith, and migration has always impacted those lands. But it is a gross injustice for the so-called "children of Israel" in a modern political sense of the term, to apply one law to themselves, and another law to many families who simply left Judaism centuries ago when the gospel was first preached "in Jerusalem, in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Why? Merely on the basis of a "permanent" claim to real estate that others have as much or more right to own.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 2, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> MrMerlin777 said:
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> 
> > Jon 316 said:
> ...


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## CovenantalBaptist (Mar 3, 2009)

This open letter by many Presbyterian, Reformed and Reformed Baptist pastors and Seminary professors also speaks to the issue of Zionism from some within our community.


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## beej6 (Mar 3, 2009)

I believe (even) the PC (USA) has a position against Christian Zionism of the dispensational sort.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks for all the input folks. Since Sunday I have come to realise something significant. 

I have been holding two opposing views on Eschatology simutaniously without fully realising it. 

Having been saved in the brethren movement I have been influenced by dispensationalism. 

However I have mainly, somehow, (probably through the reading of scripture), adopted a more covenantal position (The new covenant and the church are at the heart of God's purposes). 

I've also began to identify some exegetical/appocalyptic/prophetic assumptions about the end times. 

Again, cheers for the comments, links and book recommendations. 

I have just purchased Stephen Sizers Zions Christian Soldiers? which is a recent book which strongly argues against Zionism.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok, when I first posted this thread, I had very little understanding of the exact nature of Christian Zionism. 

I've now almost finished Sizer's book and I have scanned through some of John Hagee, and some other Zionist whos name evades me just now. 

My conclusion? Those guys are scary! Really scary. Talk about scripture twisting, context ignoring, eschatological speculation, not to mention imaginative sensasionalism that would put the top 10 tabloids to shame!

I'm careful with my use of the word herasy. But I'm not sure what else you can call it? It seems to be nothing other than the reviving of the old covenant which Jesus has fulfilled!


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