# when does private worship become public worship?



## rembrandt (Apr 26, 2004)

Say a group of people are worshipping in maybe a small group, just singing hymns to the Lord. Would this be congregational worship since more than one saint is gathered?

How many people before an elder or pastor are needed?

Rembrandt


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## cupotea (Apr 26, 2004)

*Public worship*

(Matthew 18:20)
&quot;For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.&quot;

Unless you want to constitute a church, I don't think it really matters.

[Edited on 4-27-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]


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## sundoulos (Apr 28, 2004)

Can one saint gather? :no:

If we look at the church council held in Jerusalem, there were no constituted elders (although James and John were pillars and John was an apostle) and others were leaders of the highest magnitude in the Church. 

Christians can gather together and still have private worship (although worship is much more than singing). I would describe public worship as that which is open to the public, whether or not any of the public are in attendance.


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## rembrandt (Apr 28, 2004)

when does a pastor or elder need to be present as a minister of the word?


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## JWJ (Apr 29, 2004)

What do you mean by pastor or elder? Are you referring to someone in a role of authority through "ordination" by a specific denomination or from a particular established eldership? Or are you referring more generally to someone, who by the people for a specific task or period of time, is in a position of authority to preach or teach? 

As you can see your answer to the above will dictate your answer to your question.


JWJ


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## rembrandt (Apr 29, 2004)

[quote:500dbe7f22]What do you mean by pastor or elder? Are you referring to someone in a role of authority through "ordination" by a specific denomination or from a particular established eldership? Or are you referring more generally to someone, who by the people for a specific task or period of time, is in a position of authority to preach or teach?[/quote:500dbe7f22]

I think any of those would be fine to follow my plot. I am talking about [i:500dbe7f22]anyone[/i:500dbe7f22] who is qualified by the church and by God to shepard souls. Does any qualified shepard need to be present if a group within the congregation decides to meet together for worship? I don't mean that one should be there just to watch and make sure nothing goes wrong. I am talking about, does one need to be there to lead the worship? 

Of course we don't need a pastor in our private worship. But when it becomes congregational, a minister of the word does need to be there to represent Jesus Christ and speak the word of God in authority.

What elements must be in 'worship' in order to call it a true biblical time of congregational worship?


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## wsw201 (Apr 29, 2004)

[quote:daad2c5903]
What elements must be in 'worship' in order to call it a true biblical time of congregational worship? 
[/quote:daad2c5903]


This is from the WCF Chapter 21 on Worship:

I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calls thereunto.[33]

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]


Scripture:

[1] ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. JER 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. PSA 31:23 O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. PSA 18:3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. PSA 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. JOS 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. MAR 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

[2] DEU 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. MAT 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. ACT 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. MAT 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (see also DEU 15:-19) EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[3] MAT 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. JOH 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 2CO 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[4] COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind. REV 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. ROM 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[5] JOH 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. EPH 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. COL 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[6] PHI 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

[7] PSA 65:6 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power.

[8] JOH 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 1PE 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[9] ROM 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[10] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[11] PSA 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. ECC 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: GEN 17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. JAM 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. JAM 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. MAR 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. MAT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. COL 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[12] 1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[13] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[14] 1TI 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. JOH 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. 2SA 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever. RUT 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

[15] 2SA 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. LUK 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. REV 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

[16] 1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] ACT 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. REV 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

[18] 2TI 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[19] JAM 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ACT 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. MAT 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. HEB 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. ISA 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

[20] COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. EPH 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. JAM 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

[21] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 1CO 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. ACT 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[22] DEU 6:13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. NEH 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes.

[23] ISA 19:21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it. ECC 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

[24] JOE 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning. EST 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish. MAT 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 1CO 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

[25] (PSA 107 throughout) EST 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.

[26] HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

[27] JOH 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

[28] MAL 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. 1TI 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

[29] JOH 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[30] JER 10:25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate. DEU 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. JOB 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 2SA 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. 20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 1PE 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. ACT 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

[31] MAT 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

[32] MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[33] ISA 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. HEB 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. PRO 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying. 24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. ACT 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. LUK 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. ACT 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[34] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ISA 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[35] GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 1CO 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. ACT 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[36] REV 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

[37] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[38] EXOD. 20:8, EXOD. 16:23,25-26,29-30; EXOD. 31:15-17; ISA 63:13; NEH. 13:15-19,21-22.

[39] ISA 63:13; MATT. 12:1-13.


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## tcalbrecht (Apr 29, 2004)

[quote:69f0aac961][i:69f0aac961]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:69f0aac961]
Say a group of people are worshipping in maybe a small group, just singing hymns to the Lord. Would this be congregational worship since more than one saint is gathered?

How many people before an elder or pastor are needed?

Rembrandt [/quote:69f0aac961]

Just because you have some of the elements of worship does not mean you have corporate worship. E.g., you can pray in a bible study but the inclusion of prayer does not elevate the study to a worship service.

I believe that all public (corporate) worship must be conducted under the authority of the elders. The only legitimate private worship is either personal or family (with the household head being the &quot;elder&quot; of the congregation).


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## tcalbrecht (Apr 29, 2004)

[quote:1f28d36053][i:1f28d36053]Originally posted by sundoulos[/i:1f28d36053]
Can one saint gather? :no:

If we look at the church council held in Jerusalem, there were no constituted elders (although James and John were pillars and John was an apostle) and others were leaders of the highest magnitude in the Church. [/quote:1f28d36053]

I must be missing something.

Are you suggesting that the council in Acts 15 was a worship service? Why?

On the other hand, we know that there were elders in the Jerusalem church (cf. Acts 21:18). Why would you assume they were not present in chapter 15?

Why bring up Acts 15?

If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize.

BTW, I don't believe the James of Acts 15 is the same James of &quot;James and John&quot; fame. That James was killed in Acts 12. I believe James in Acts 15 is the (half-) brother of Our Lord (cf. Gal. 1:19).


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## sundoulos (May 5, 2004)

tcalbrecht wrote:

[quote:5a9ad32644]
I believe that all public (corporate) worship must be conducted under the authority of the elders. The only legitimate private worship is either personal or family (with the household head being the &quot;elder&quot; of the congregation).
[/quote:5a9ad32644]

What is your scriptural basis for this? It seems that Lydia and other women worshipped God with no elders present.


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## sundoulos (May 5, 2004)

tcalbrecht
[quote:52aee8d35d]
Are you suggesting that the council in Acts 15 was a worship service? Why?
[/quote:52aee8d35d]
I do not see any &quot;worship services&quot; in the records of the early church. That is a modern dichotomy of thought that pervades evangelicalism. All that we do as believers for the glory of God is worship. Public prayer is worship. There was preaching there. Paul gave testimony there, praising God for His work among the gentiles. As for elders being present -- I'll concede the probability that they were there. (Senior moment?)


[quote:52aee8d35d]
I don't believe the James of Acts 15 is the same James of &quot;James and John&quot; fame. That James was killed in Acts 12. I believe James in Acts 15 is the (half-) brother of Our Lord (cf. Gal. 1:19).
[/quote:52aee8d35d]

I don't know what led you believe that I was confusing the two. Gal. 2:9 says, &quot;And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars...&quot; I, too, believe James was the brother of Jesus.


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## tcalbrecht (May 5, 2004)

[quote:bd0c413c43][i:bd0c413c43]Originally posted by sundoulos[/i:bd0c413c43]
tcalbrecht wrote:

[quote:bd0c413c43]
I believe that all public (corporate) worship must be conducted under the authority of the elders. The only legitimate private worship is either personal or family (with the household head being the &quot;elder&quot; of the congregation).
[/quote:bd0c413c43]

What is your scriptural basis for this? It seems that Lydia and other women worshipped God with no elders present. [/quote:bd0c413c43]


[quote:bd0c413c43]
14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 
[/quote:bd0c413c43]

I do not think that Acts records the nature of Lydia's worship, merely the fact that she was &quot;God worshipper&quot;. This seems to be similar to the identification of Cornelius as a &quot;God fearer&quot;. I believe it was the way that proselytes were referred to in Scripture.

I believe that the requirement that elders be present for corporate worship has to do with the nature of the church. Elders are the divine representatives of God, and Christ's undershepherds. They are charged with guarding the flock ala Acts 20. It would seem that their presence is required esp. in corporate worship since that is the supreme activity of the visible church in this age. 

In Rev. 4 we see the &quot;four and twenty elders&quot; before the throne worshipping. I believe they symbolically represent the entire church before God. Without the elders there is no corporate worship.

And just to clarify, I'm speaking only of corporate worship. We are all called to worship God in our secret places, which, by definition, would not include the elders of the church.


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## sundoulos (May 5, 2004)

tcalbrecht wrote:

[quote:8dcedd6884]
I believe that the requirement that elders be present for corporate worship has to do with the nature of the church. Elders are the divine representatives of God, and Christ's undershepherds. They are charged with guarding the flock ala Acts 20. It would seem that their presence is required esp. in corporate worship since that is the supreme activity of the visible church in this age. 
[/quote:8dcedd6884]

&quot;It would seem&quot; is far from conclusive, don't you think? That falls under the category of opinion, in my opinion.&quot; I would like to see some definitive scripture that states that.

What does a Presbyterian mission church do when the only elder normally present (the teaching elder) is absent? I know from working in planting churches with the Reformed Presbyterian Church (Evangelical Synod) that corporate congregational worship went on as usual.


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