# Obligation to Christianize Society



## JBaldwin (Jan 17, 2010)

> ...as Christians we have obligations to Christianize society.



This comment made by TimV coincided with this mornings sermon which follows a thought I've been meditating on all week. (NOTE: This is not an attempt to put words into Tim's mouth or to try to interpret what he said, but rather use this comment as a jumping off point for a discussion on evangelism.) 

Jesus said that we are to "let our light so shine that they may see our good works and glorify our Father which is in Heaven." This morning's sermon was on John 17:13-21. One point of the sermon was that we were redeemed so that we might be sent out to glorify God. 

Another thought tossed in front of me this week (attributed to CS Lewis, I don't have an exact quote) was that the only way that we can change a bad society is to individually become good society. 

All of these thoughts have been causing me to rethink how I relate to the world, and I would like some of your thoughts. In light of the above scriptures and quotations, what does it mean to "Christianize society?" Is that the same thing as letting our lights shine?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 17, 2010)

If we have a simple litmus test of all our thoughts, words, and deeds: "Will they bring glory God?", these sort of matters will necessarily work out accordingly.

AMR


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## MW (Jan 17, 2010)

The ambiguity comes in the term Christianize, which literally means to "make Christian." We have as little hope of making society Christian as we do of converting our fellow men. A Christian might be the means but God must effect the change. If we understand this then it will limit the way we understand the term "Christianize" and avoid some confusion.

The Psalms are helpful in coming to understand our relationship to the world. There we find at least six distinct ideas with regard to the worshipper's attitude to the nations. (1.) The nations are in revolt against the authority of the Lord and His Christ (Messiah, Anointed). (2.) Nevertheless the Lord rules the nations through His Christ and calls them to submission and obedience. (3.) The covenant community therefore worships the Lord by the mediation of the Christ in the midst of the nations; (4.) looks to the right hand of God to accomplish His saving purpose by means of the Christ amongst the nations, both in a way of judgment and mercy; (5.) issues the summons to the nations to turn to the Lord and His Christ; (6.) while cherishing the expectation that all nations shall come to be incorporated with the worshipping community and become the people of the Lord and of His Christ.


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## Christusregnat (Jan 17, 2010)

JBaldwin said:


> > ...as Christians we have obligations to Christianize society.
> 
> 
> 
> In light of the above scriptures and quotations, what does it mean to "Christianize society?" Is that the same thing as letting our lights shine?


 
I believe that this command is summarized in the Great Commission:



> 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”



Christianization refers to baptising, and teaching to observe commandments: "What man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man." The nations are to be taught this upon baptism.

In short, it is turning the nations into disciples of Christ. This is not optional; this is required.

Letting our light shine is one way in which this is done, but is not the same thing, as fas as I can understand.

Cheers,


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## Scott1 (Jan 17, 2010)

Adam makes an important point, citing the Scriptural basis for what is often called the "Great Commission."

Sometimes it is described as only sharing the Gospel. It certainly is that, but it also involves discipling in the full counsel of God's Word and engaging every aspect of the life God gives you with that, with faith toward God for the results.

This also might properly be looked at as every person being a missionary in the sphere God gives them. It will produce results in the Kingdom though we don't control the results, extent or timing. God alone does that.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 18, 2010)

Christusregnat said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > > ...as Christians we have obligations to Christianize society.
> ...


 
So Christianizing the nations speaks only of the commission and not the fruit correct? ie, the whole world head for head will not become Christian, but that does not deter from our effort to proclaim the message.

Can you please clarify what it means to turn the nations into disciples of Christ? Is your definition of nations the biblical one that simply means elect gentiles in this instance? 

I am trying to understand this subject as you speak on it and how it relates to the truth of the antithesis between the believer and the world. And how this will remain for eternity.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> So Christianizing the nations speaks only of the commission and not the fruit correct? ie, the whole world head for head will not become Christian, but that does not deter from our effort to proclaim the message.
> 
> Can you please clarify what it means to turn the nations into disciples of Christ?  Is your definition of nations the biblical one that simply means elect gentiles in this instance?
> 
> I am trying to understand this subject as you speak on it and how it relates to the truth of the antithesis between the believer and the world.  And how this will remain for eternity.



This is my exact question, also . . .particularly the underlined portions.


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## MW (Jan 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> Is your definition of nations the biblical one that simply means elect gentiles in this instance?


 
If that were the correct definition the commission would read like this -- "Teach all elect Gentiles." Election of this or that individual belongs to God's secret counsel; the gospel is revealed in order that it might be preached to sinners as sinners. "Elect Gentiles" cannot be the biblical definition of "nations."


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

Christusregnat said:


> In short, it is turning the nations into disciples of Christ. This is not optional; this is required.







armourbearer said:


> (6.) while cherishing the expectation that all nations shall come to be incorporated with the worshipping community and become the people of the Lord and of His Christ.


 


> If that were the correct definition the commission would read like this -- "Teach all elect Gentiles." Election of this or that individual belongs to God's secret counsel; the gospel is revealed in order that it might be preached to sinners as sinners. "Elect Gentiles" cannot be the biblical definition of "nations."



The commission to preach the gospel to all sinners is not in question; it is the expectations for the nations that is being questioned (underlined statements, in particular).


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## MW (Jan 18, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> The commission to preach the gospel to all sinners is not in question; it is the expectations for the nations that is being questioned (underlined statements, in particular).


 
One must wonder why it is being questioned. No sensible Christian will cherish the hope that the church will fail in the commission that our risen and all powerful Lord has given to her.


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## jambo (Jan 18, 2010)

The great commission is to make disciples of all nations rather than trying to Christianising the nations. An example may be seen in Constantine who declared his empire Christian but this was merely Christianising pagans. Indeed much of Roman Catholic mission is simply to do the very same. 

Christianising people is like giving a rusty old car a coat of paint. It may look OK but underneath it all it is rotting away. Discipleship is much more. It is not merely _doing_ Christian things but it is about _being_ a Christian. Its not just giving your old car a coat of paint but a whole new body and engine.

Its not the nations that become Christian but the people living in them. As people change so society changes. (as in the great revivals of the 18th century and subsequent laws that were passed reflecting the Christian values) I do believe that in faithfully proclaiming the word, vast numbers can be converted whether they are in so called closed countries or not. Psalms and other passages that speak of the nations worshipping God refer to times when large numbers of their inhabitants are converted and the nation changes from within rather than nations changing themselves by passing laws that have the appearance of Christianity about them.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 18, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Is your definition of nations the biblical one that simply means elect gentiles in this instance?
> ...


 

Nations always referred to non Jews Matthew. the ''Goy" Were and is understood as gentiles. The commission expresses nothing about Christianizing the world as a revealed goal and an expectation or else the antithesis is no more. I agree with the first 5 of your opinion on the psalms, but number 6 is not present in the inspired words of David nor the New Testament. I certainly do not cherish any expectation that all nations shall come to be incorporated with the worshipping community and become the people of the Lord and of His Christ if you mean head for head. In fact I cherish the opposite. That the joy of their smoke rising up forever and praising God to vindicate His society.

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armourbearer said:


> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> > The commission to preach the gospel to all sinners is not in question; it is the expectations for the nations that is being questioned (underlined statements, in particular).
> ...


 
Perhaps we are speaking past each other, hence I asked Adam to clarify his statement. The Church will not fail. We are commanded to teach/proclaim the nations, but not Baptize 'them'. All Individuals of all nations are not to be baptized. panta ta eynh, are of the neuter gender, whereas autouv, "them", is of the masculine.


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## MW (Jan 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> I agree with the first 5 of your opinion on the psalms, but number 6 is not present in the inspired words of David nor the New Testament.


 
Ps. 22:27, 28, "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations." Ps. 47:3, "He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet." Ps. 67:2, 4, "That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations... O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah." Ps. 72:11, 17, "Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him... His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed." Ps 82:8, "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations." Ps. 86:9, "All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name."

Rev. 12:5, "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Rev. 15:4, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest." Rev. 19:15, "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Rev. 21:26, "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." Rev. 22:2, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with the first 5 of your opinion on the psalms, but number 6 is not present in the inspired words of David nor the New Testament.
> ...



Rev. Winzer,

I do not believe it is nonsensical to ask whether you interpret these scriptures to mean literal nations in their entirety are expected to be saved . . .

Or whether you interpret these scriptures to apply only to the spiritual and elect sons of God, called to faith, _out of all the nations. _ (Revelation 5:9; 7:9)


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## MW (Jan 18, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> I do not believe it is nonsensical to ask whether you interpret these scriptures to mean literal nations in their entirety are expected to be saved . . .
> 
> Or whether you interpret these scriptures to apply only to the spiritual and elect sons of God, called to faith, _out of all the nations. _ (Revelation 5:9; 7:9)


 
In terms of God's secret counsel, He chooses the individuals out of every nation whom He will save, Acts 13:48.

In terms of God's revealed will, we are to exert all our efforts and hopes towards the salvation of all men, Acts 26:27-29.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> In terms of God's secret counsel, He chooses the individuals out of every nation whom He will save, Acts 13:48.



Indeed.



> In terms of God's revealed will, we are to exert all our efforts and hopes towards the salvation of all men, Acts 26:27-29.



According to the revealed will of God in Holy Scripture, I cannot hope for the salvation of all men.

That is an Universalistic (and unscriptural) concept.

So why should I deceive myself, hoping and exerting myself for what God never wills or decrees?

Being informed of this through reading my bible, and studying the fathers of the Reformed faith, I conclude I do not know, nor will I ever know, who God has elected to save out of the nations, so I faithfully proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to all, leaving such matters to the grace of God.


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## Christusregnat (Jan 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> So Christianizing the nations speaks only of the commission and not the fruit correct? ie, the whole world head for head will not become Christian, but that does not deter from our effort to proclaim the message.



Robert, this is an excellent question. Although some Reformed theologians have believed in total conversion at the end (such as Warfield, for example), I don't think that this meshes too well with other biblical facts. In order for a nation to be called Christian, it must be constitutionally and functionally obedient to Christ. For instance, Psalm 2 informs all kings and judges of the nations of the earth to do homage to the Son, and to obey His precepts. Such obedience does not secure a head-for-head conversion, but this is the model of Scripture. I'm not sure how well that answers your question...




Amazing Grace said:


> Can you please clarify what it means to turn the nations into disciples of Christ? Is your definition of nations the biblical one that simply means elect gentiles in this instance?



One interesting prophecy about the conversion of the Nations is in Isaiah 19, and I think it may explain what it means for a nation to be "Christian." Basically, and very ironically, with Egypt as the example nation, it means that such a nation is treated like the Exodus generation, or a holy nation:



> 18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the *language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts*; one will be called the City of Destruction.
> 19 In that day there will be an *altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt*, and a *pillar to the LORD at its border*. 20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and *He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them*. 21 Then the *LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering*; yes, they will *make a vow to the LORD and perform it*. 22 And the LORD will *strike *Egypt, He will *strike and heal* it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.



Note the Exodus language, particularly with regard to God's lawful worship and the pillar at the borders (like in Joshua's generation). God goes on to call Egypt "my people" (v. 25). If you want to see what a Christianized nation looks like, look to the Exodus, and to Joshua, correlated with Jeremiah 31, etc.

The biblical meaning that "Gentiles" means only the elect gentiles beggs the question of what a "gentile" is. The word is used in different contexts; in some it refers to a person who is racially non-Jewish; not of the seed of Abraham. In other contexts, it can refer to a specific nation, such as the "nations under heaven" represented in Acts 2. A passage to demonstrate this diversity of meaning is Acts 15, where the Council at Jerusalem cites the Prophets as confirming that the "rest of mankind", and the "nations" would be converted in accordance with divine predestination. Clearly, this can't refer to single persons, but must refer to a situation such as Isaiah 19 envisions: the conversion of nations. The rest of mankind, or the nations, will have God's name put upon them, just as Isaiah cites Egypt and Assyria receiving the exodus marks. 



Amazing Grace said:


> I am trying to understand this subject as you speak on it and how it relates to the truth of the antithesis between the believer and the world. And how this will remain for eternity.



The antithesis between the believer and the world means that the unbelievers are unlawful possessors, whom God will disinherit. They will not inherit the earth, and are fundamentally unfit to possess the earth. Thus, when Christ threatens the kings and judges of the earth, he says that He will dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. They can't stand. All Christ has to do is request a nation, and it is His, as His lawful inheritance as "King of kings" having all authority on the earth. 

I hope that doesn't add to the confusion.

Cheers,


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## MW (Jan 18, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> According to the revealed will of God in Holy Scripture, I cannot hope for the salvation of all men.


 
I can only say what the apostle declared to the Romans (15:8-13), "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, *to confirm the promises made unto the fathers*: *And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy*; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, *all ye Gentiles*; and laud him, *all ye people*. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, *that ye may abound in hope*, through the power of the Holy Ghost."


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## Christusregnat (Jan 19, 2010)

Thank you for correlating Romans 15 in this discussion, as it too serves to show the universal scope of the reign of Christ on earth!

This is why we pray for the conversion of kings and all kinds of men, so that we can live a peaceable life in all godliness. Without Christian nations, we cannot live either a peaceable life, or a life in all godliness and honesty.

Cheers,


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 19, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with the first 5 of your opinion on the psalms, but number 6 is not present in the inspired words of David nor the New Testament.
> ...


 

Again, every instance regarding these prophetic words speak of elect gentiles. Which as I pointed out is meant by "nations''. But it certainly does not mean every individual head for head within these nations.

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 AM ----------




Christusregnat said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > So Christianizing the nations speaks only of the commission and not the fruit correct? ie, the whole world head for head will not become Christian, but that does not deter from our effort to proclaim the message.
> ...


 
Thank you Adam. I certainly agree in the prophetic words of Isaiah 19. I liken it more to the mercy of God to save such sinners to the utmost rather than a Christianizing of all the nations as a universal salvation. Now if you mean the New Jerusalem is Christianized of all NAtions I certainly agree, yet this side of the second Advent, I see little if any New Testament word that speaks on this matter. 

As I mention above, the one phrase that concerns me most that you spoke is this: Christianization refers to baptising, and teaching to observe commandments: "What man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man." The nations are to be taught this upon baptism.In short, it is turning the nations into disciples of Christ. This is not optional; this is required.

The greek of Matthew 28 does not allow this. We are commanded to teach/proclaim the nations, but not Baptize 'them'. All Individuals of all nations are not to be baptized. panta ta eynh, are of the neuter gender, whereas autouv, "them", is of the masculine.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 19, 2010)

Christusregnat said:


> Thank you for correlating Romans 15 in this discussion, as it too serves to show the universal scope of the reign of Christ on earth!
> 
> This is why we pray for the conversion of kings and all kinds of men, so that we can live a peaceable life in all godliness. Without Christian nations, we cannot live either a peaceable life, or a life in all godliness and honesty.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Yet, Paul is no way was thinking the Church is Israel in Canaan, seeking to subdue the Canaanites and the earthly land. America, or any nation for that matter, is not God's redemptive land, as if we have the right to rule it and make the decisions. Israel and her conquest was a picture of what Christ will do to his enemies at the Last Day, when he brings his people into the new heavens and earth. The gospel as a means to an earthly end is to ignore the great irony of Christ's kingdom taught us in the parables; that the kingdom does not show itself through strength and power as the world judges these things. Thus the church is not a social or political institution, nor called to Christianize the state and the culture. We are a spiritual institution concerned with promoting the redemptive kingdom of Christ; the only Christianized kingdom that will not pass away at the consummation of all things.


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## JBaldwin (Jan 19, 2010)

jambo said:


> The great commission is to make disciples of all nations rather than trying to Christianising the nations. An example may be seen in Constantine who declared his empire Christian but this was merely Christianising pagans. Indeed much of Roman Catholic mission is simply to do the very same.
> 
> Christianising people is like giving a rusty old car a coat of paint. It may look OK but underneath it all it is rotting away. Discipleship is much more. It is not merely _doing_ Christian things but it is about _being_ a Christian. Its not just giving your old car a coat of paint but a whole new body and engine.
> 
> Its not the nations that become Christian but the people living in them. As people change so society changes. (as in the great revivals of the 18th century and subsequent laws that were passed reflecting the Christian values) I do believe that in faithfully proclaiming the word, vast numbers can be converted whether they are in so called closed countries or not. Psalms and other passages that speak of the nations worshipping God refer to times when large numbers of their inhabitants are converted and the nation changes from within rather than nations changing themselves by passing laws that have the appearance of Christianity about them.


 
This is very helpful and seems to be in line with what I've been thinking about. 

How does this work out in our daily lives? And how does this fit in (or does it fit in) with political activism?


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## MW (Jan 19, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> Again, every instance regarding these prophetic words speak of elect gentiles. Which as I pointed out is meant by "nations''. But it certainly does not mean every individual head for head within these nations.


 
I haven't said anything about "head for head."

I have already shown how "elect gentiles" cannot be the definition of "nations" in the great commissions. It is also shown to be incorrect from the Psalms and Revelation as soon as one takes into account the fact that "God rules the nations." Nations are geopolitical entities. The Psalms and Revelation explicitly teach that these geopolitical entities shall come and worship before Him. If you need to revise the Bible's statements in order to make it conform with your theology then your argument is not with me but with the Author of the Bible.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 19, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Again, every instance regarding these prophetic words speak of elect gentiles. Which as I pointed out is meant by "nations''. But it certainly does not mean every individual head for head within these nations.
> ...


 

Then you must show what constitutes 'nations' according to your definition. Teach the nations means go to the Gentiles. But we are not ever commanded to Baptize any other but those individuals within these nations who come from the teaching. I have shown how the greek of matt 28 determines this.


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## MW (Jan 19, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> Then you must show what constitutes 'nations' according to your definition. Teach the nations means go to the Gentiles. But we are not ever commanded to Baptize any other but those individuals within these nations who come from the teaching. I have shown how the greek of matt 28 determines this.


 
"Nations" is the only noun to which the pronoun can refer.

That "nations" refers to geopolitical entities is clear (1) from the contrast with the commission in Matt. 10:5, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles," and with every other references to "ethne" in the Gospel of Matthew; and (2.) from the fulfilment of the commission in the Acts of the Apostles, where nations specifically refers to regions with distinct boundary lines and governments.


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## Pergamum (Jan 19, 2010)

Panta ta ethne does not merely refer to the Gentiles in general (Jews are also to be reached), nor does it refer to geopolitical entities. 

Panta ta ethne, the arena of our Great Commission refers to all the nations, and nations means divisions of mankind (i.e. people-groups, ethno-linguistic divisions of mankind, synonymous with tongue, tribes and nations).

I.e, therefore the Great Commission does not merely mean evangelize the geopolitical nation-state of India, but to reach every single distinct ethno-linguistic people group in India. Every division of mankind and dark hole of mankind must be breached for the Gospel.

Likewise, Indonesia has some solid churches within its national boundaries, yet 127 distinct people-groups are still unreached and in its Papuan province, there are still 200 tribal groups without a Bible in their language.

---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 AM ----------

What is a People Group? | The Traveling Team



Also, see here: Unreached Peoples :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library


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## MW (Jan 19, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> I.e, therefore the Great Commission does not merely mean evangelize the geopolitical nation-state of India, but to reach every single distinct ethno-linguistic people group in India. Every division of mankind and dark hole of mankind must be breached for the Gospel.


 
Which one would undoubtedly undertake with the view of "discipling" the whole of the "ethno-linguistic people group" -- leaders and people.


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## Christusregnat (Jan 20, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> Yet, Paul is no way was thinking the Church is Israel in Canaan, seeking to subdue the Canaanites and the earthly land. America, or any nation for that matter, is not God's redemptive land, as if we have the right to rule it and make the decisions.



I think you are confusing two concepts: 1. Of Christ's mediatorial reign over the nations, and 2. The idea that America is the New Israel; these are not the same. Further, Israel didn't even have the right to "rule it and make the decisions"; Israel was under authority, and God made the decisions for them.





Amazing Grace said:


> Israel and her conquest was a picture of what Christ will do to his enemies at the Last Day, when he brings his people into the new heavens and earth.



How do you reconcile this with the passage I cited above: Isaiah 19? It appears that your interpretation is rather inconsistent with the import of Egypt's conversion, as well as Assyria's, etc. Perhaps you can remark about why James (in Acts 15) refers to the "rest of mankind", or the nations.



Amazing Grace said:


> The gospel as a means to an earthly end is to ignore the great irony of Christ's kingdom taught us in the parables; that the kingdom does not show itself through strength and power as the world judges these things.



This is the opinion of the Anabaptists, and you may want to rethink the matter. Christ taught that we are to pray for His kingdom to come and His will to be done, on earth as it is in heaven. This means that earth's judges are to submit to the reign of Christ, and to judge righteous judgment.



Amazing Grace said:


> Thus the church is not a social or political institution, nor called to Christianize the state and the culture. We are a spiritual institution concerned with promoting the redemptive kingdom of Christ; the only Christianized kingdom that will not pass away at the consummation of all things.


 
Again, I would agree that the Church is not a political entity (if by that you mean a "secular kingdom"). If by that you mean that God's Word and Christ's authority have nothing to say regarding the proper government of the nations of the earth, then you are severely mistaken, and have drunk deeply of the wells of the Anabaptists. Your view is not a Reformed position, and is contradicted by Reformers and Reformed Confessions. Worst of all, it is a radically unreformed approach to the Old Testament Oracles of God, and their confirmation in the New Testament.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 20, 2010)

Christusregnat said:


> If by that you mean that God's Word and Christ's authority have nothing to say regarding the proper government of the nations of the earth, then you are severely mistaken, and have drunk deeply of the wells of the Anabaptists. Your view is not a Reformed position, and is contradicted by Reformers and Reformed Confessions. Worst of all, it is a radically unreformed approach to the Old Testament Oracles of God, and their confirmation in the New Testament.



Are you saying that one must be a Theonomist in order to be Reformed?


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## beej6 (Jan 20, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > If by that you mean that God's Word and Christ's authority have nothing to say regarding the proper government of the nations of the earth, then you are severely mistaken, and have drunk deeply of the wells of the Anabaptists. Your view is not a Reformed position, and is contradicted by Reformers and Reformed Confessions. Worst of all, it is a radically unreformed approach to the Old Testament Oracles of God, and their confirmation in the New Testament.
> ...


 
The general answer should be "no" since theonomy is not mainstream Reformed thinking. I don't think that's what Adam is suggesting.
I daresay a Reformed Christian must "love the law" (cf. Psalm 19).


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## jwithnell (Jan 20, 2010)

Unless I've read too rapidly, I haven't seen the sense that we are to bring all areas of our lives into submission to the Christ that saved us: that would include how we vote, how we run our business, our call for what is right in society, how we educate our children, and so forth. When the gospel, by God's grace, pervades churches, communities, and whole nations, radical change will occur. It starts with a radical change of heart followed by the faithful teaching of God's word and its application to all areas of life.

As others have mentioned, government, or for that matter culture, can't change the heart, so Constantine could no more make a Christian nation than I could turn a rabbit into a dog by placing it in a kennel and saying it is so. A more recent example would be the "do good for the sake of doing good" Christianity pushed by Victorian England. We are still seeing the negative results played out across the globe.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jan 20, 2010)

I think it is a foolish thing to try to "christianize" society. We ought to go and spread the Word but the idea that we can make people become Christians by setting laws that legislate morality is absurd.


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## Christusregnat (Jan 20, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > If by that you mean that God's Word and Christ's authority have nothing to say regarding the proper government of the nations of the earth, then you are severely mistaken, and have drunk deeply of the wells of the Anabaptists. Your view is not a Reformed position, and is contradicted by Reformers and Reformed Confessions. Worst of all, it is a radically unreformed approach to the Old Testament Oracles of God, and their confirmation in the New Testament.
> ...


 
Ronda,

What do you mean by Theonomist? People have differing definitions, some of which I believe are quite misleading.

If by Theonomist you mean someone who takes the scriptural directives to civil society seriously, then yes. If you mean that they would have agreed to every word uttered by Greg Bahnsen (a common misrepresentation of Theonomy), then no.

Cheers,

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Unashamed 116 said:


> I think it is a foolish thing to try to "christianize" society. We ought to go and spread the Word but the idea that we can make people become Christians by setting laws that legislate morality is absurd.


 
Joseph,

This is a common misrepresentation of what it means to Christianize society. Christ commanded us to make the nations of the earth His disciples. The prophets promised it would be thus, and the Apostles confirm it. 

Every society legislates a given morality, and the morality of each society is determined by the god or God of that society. Christianization simply means that Christ is the Lawgiver, Judge and Savior. Indeed, in Scripture, replacing the true and living God with some other "lawgiver" is idolatry of the worst sort: it gives His glory to another.

Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2010)

I think this is an issue of whether the Christianization needs to be from the inside-out or the outside-in. 

We need to make disciples that will claim Jesus as King over all spheres of life due to the inward change within them first (inside to outside Christianization) as opposed to governments trying to force people into a religiousity (outside to inside). 

As we _matheteuo panta ta ethne_, the inward changes of the Gospel will result in outward societal changes. 

Theonomists and non-theonomists (or little t theonomists, since all Christians want to make Jesus King in some form or fashion) can all say amen to that.


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## JBaldwin (Jan 21, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> I think this is an issue of whether the Christianization needs to be from the inside-out or the outside-in.
> 
> We need to make disciples that will claim Jesus as King over all spheres of life due to the inward change within them first (inside to outside Christianization) as opposed to governments trying to force people into a religiousity (outside to inside).
> 
> ...


 

How does that manifest itself in our daily lives? Will (or should it) "drive" us to become actively involved in our communities? While I believe change should come from inside out, does that give me an excuse not to do anything to help change the society/community in which I live?

I hear so often from my christian brothers and sisters that we don't need to be bothered because God is going to do what He's going to do, and we can't stop it.


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## Pergamum (Jan 21, 2010)

Yes, I believe we ought to be very much involved with our neighbors, communities, and involved daily in works of compassion and mercy, both as individuals and as churches. 

This won't merely manifest in "good words" (speaking the truth) but will also involve "good works" (helping the hurting, whether you will get a chance to put in a promo for Jesus or not). 

And this will reach into every area of life, including spending habits, political habits,community involvement, etc.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jan 21, 2010)

Then I think "Christianize society" is a bad way of saying it. Why dont we just spread the gospel and let that convict. If that's what it means to christianize society, then I am on board.


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## jambo (Jan 21, 2010)

JBaldwin said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> > The great commission is to make disciples of all nations rather than trying to Christianising the nations. An example may be seen in Constantine who declared his empire Christian but this was merely Christianising pagans. Indeed much of Roman Catholic mission is simply to do the very same.
> ...


 
Christians should be active in whatever walk of life they are in. Whether that is as a politician, an office worker, a factory worker, a butcher, a baker or candlestick maker. In the realm of politics, creating legislation should be done according to your Christian principles. However it should be stressed that laws reflecting Christian values do not make people Christians and secondly although Christians should be active in politics, there is no such thing as a Christian party. The church and the state are two separate entities. 

Both Joseph and Daniel were active in political office and made quite an impact in both Egypt and Babylon. However an interesting example may be seen in the life of Jonah. He preached to the Ninevites, they repented and God's judgment was averted. Although the king issued a decree to put on sackcloth it seems repentance came from the inhabitants. In Daniel, both Nebuchadnezzar and Darius had some awareness of God and likewise made decrees for the people to worship God or at least not tospeak against him. But how effective were these decrees? Did they cause any of the Babylonians to turn to God? We do not know of course, nor do we know if the Ninevites produced any lasting fruit but it seems to me that the Ninevites benefited more from Jonah's preaching than the Babylonians did from royal decrees.


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