# Am I a jerk for not being willing to help my kids financially with college?



## SolaScriptura (Nov 12, 2008)

My wife and I do not intend to help our kids pay for college. We did it ourselves and we're better for it. The only possible way they may potentially get me to even consider chipping in would be for them to attend either VMI or The Citadel. 

So, am I a big mean jerk?

For context: many of my friends and family think that I'm a big mean jerk for not being willing to start up a 529 plan for the kids. (Some of these family members were the same ones who wouldn't help us out! Their excuse for why I should pay for my kids' college: I can afford to do so, but they couldn't afford to help us...)


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 12, 2008)

So I AM being a jerk unless my reasons are "substantial?"


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## Prudence and Passion (Nov 12, 2008)

Without knowing all the details, it is hard to say "yes" or "no." My Dad did paid for my local community college, but not my Bible college. I took out loans to pay for that... hard lesson learned. 

I think that "NO" you are not a jerk, so long as your kids know how to manage their own money and stay out of debt! I think that they will thank you ... someday.


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## Prudence and Passion (Nov 12, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> So I AM being a jerk unless my reasons are "substantial?"



Greed would certainly be a bad motivation... if you were doing it to keep your money for yourself (as the end goal) then you would be a jerk.


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## Brother John (Nov 12, 2008)

NO not a jerk. 

Your helping your children. Not all children are the same but my experience at school was that the kids who had to work jobs while there did much better. It seemed that the parents pay and scholarship kids (me being one of them) saw college as four or six years to have no responsibility and live it up(to be fair I was a reprobate and so were all that I came in contact with. So maybe a believer would treat the oppurtunity better.). Im sure that there will be others that will say Im crazy and they were this or there friend was that but I stick by my vote.

Also do NOT let your children get student loans. I have several friends and coworkers who are buried under them. Run away from debt. They should look into CollegePlus! - Home it is a much faster and cheaper way to get your undergrad. 


After thinking about it, I would not pay for it but I would find ways to help them financially as they worked through school....


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## TimV (Nov 12, 2008)

Nowadays you can't do it yourself, not normally. Where on earth is a kid going to get 100,000 dollars? My parents didn't have any money, but I got an athletic scholarship and I worked and got the basic government grant.

My oldest who just graduated got through with only 5,000 debt, but he lived at home, and worked for me (at a loss to myself) for a very large hourly wage. And that's helping. I also bought him his first car.

So, bottom line is that nowadays almost all parents help their kids; it's just a matter of degree.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

There needs to be a third option- Do you agree Ben is a jerk if...

(and no, I'm not talking about myself!)


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## Pergamum (Nov 12, 2008)

I wouldn't use the word jerk, but if you live well and then start your kids off in loads of debt when you could have saved them from this, then yes, that is selfish.

I know 4 or 5 missionary families that grieve because their kids did not receive any help. But if you are an officer in the army you are not hurting for funds.

College is a vital transition time; nothing wrong with launching the kids right.

They can learn hard work and good savings in other ways besides strapping on a millstone of debt until their 30s or working at burger joints trying to eek their way through college.



One irony is that 2 or 3 of the reformed homeschoolingfamilies I know reserve the right of picking a husband for their single daughters until they are in their 30s but, on principle, will not help them through college...I think this strange.




p.s. I paid my last 3 years of college off with work and ROTC, but thank God for my dad who helped me as a freshman. He opened up choices for me and keptme from getting into a dead end spiral of debt and low paying jobs. I graduated with 70 USD in my bank account.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

Blev3rd said:


> NO not a jerk.
> 
> Your helping your children. Not all children are the same but my experience at school was that the kids who had to work jobs while there did much better. It seemed that the parents pay and scholarship kids (me being one of them) saw college as four or six years to have no responsibility and live it up(to be fair I was a reprobate and so were all that I came in contact with. So maybe a believer would treat the oppurtunity better.). Im sure that there will be others that will say Im crazy and they were this or there friend was that but I stick by my vote.
> 
> Also do NOT let your children get student loans. I have several friends and coworkers who are buried under them. Run away from debt. They should look into CollegePlus! - Home it is a much faster and cheaper way to get your undergrad.




Oh ho! Excellent program. One of their mentors goes to my church, and the fellow who started CollegePlus! is a personal hero of mine. I followed his example and got through college in one year and paid only a minimal amount in tuition and fees. Get a copy of Accelerated Distance Learning by Brad Voeller. That is not a suggestion soldier!


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## AThornquist (Nov 12, 2008)

My parents aren't helping me through the vast majority of my college years. I am totally fine with it. I will be willing to work harder in my college years if I know that my own money is on the line  Oh yeah, and I also plan to go through CollegePlus.


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## Kevin (Nov 12, 2008)

No.

I am saving (in seperate accounts) for my (5!) kids education. However, I will never be able to fund more than one year of post-secondary education for any of them.

God Bless 'em & Good Luck, but I will never be able to pay the 3 to 5 hundred thousand $ that liberal arts BA education will cost for them.


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## Grymir (Nov 12, 2008)

Parents don't have to pay for their kids college. If they are stinking filthy rich, well, that not a problem, but poor parents like mine couldn't nor should they have. (Of course, now I'm a big shot manager/chef without going to college) All my brothers worked and found ways to pay for college. One has his PHD and was working on the next super-computer. All without help $$ for college from parents.


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## Brother John (Nov 12, 2008)

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> Blev3rd said:
> 
> 
> > NO not a jerk.
> ...




That's very intresting that you followed this path. What did you get your degree in and where did you get it from? I left school my junior year for a sales job and now I am getting ready to go back and finish. I have been looking into all my options and from what I can tell College Plus with Thomas Edison College in New Jersey is going to be my cheapest and quickest route to a degree. What did you like best about doing school this way and what did you like least?


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## Prudence and Passion (Nov 12, 2008)

Kevin said:


> No.
> 
> I am saving (in seperate accounts) for my (5!) kids education. However, I will never be able to fund more than one year of post-secondary education for any of them.
> 
> God Bless 'em & Good Luck, but I will never be able to pay the 3 to 5 hundred thousand $ that liberal arts BA education will cost for them.



I think you mean "Good Providence," Sir.


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## OPC'n (Nov 12, 2008)

I would only help them out if they got into a crisis. Example: they are paying for their education and their living expenses and then all of the sudden their car breaks down and they cannot afford this dilemma. That happened to me, but God provided for me without my parents' help. Otherwise, they will not appreciate it if you hand them their education money. Besides, we shouldn't be the only ones who have huge school loans!


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 12, 2008)

In my view, college is not a right. In addition to cost needing to be a determining factor in their decision of where to attend, ff they want it there are several ways to pay for it. UPS will pay a substantial amount. As will Fed Ex. As will Starbucks. As will Lowes. As will Home Depot. I could go on.
And don't forget the Reserves or the National Guard who will both pay... (combine the Guard and UPS for an almost free ride!)

Or just do a stint on active duty and they'll pay for it all.

Or take out a ROTC scholarship or bust your tail in highschool and get into one of the Academies.

The way I see it, there are several ways to go to school with minimal debt.


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## Brother John (Nov 12, 2008)

AThornquist said:


> My parents aren't helping me through the vast majority of my college years. I am totally fine with it. I will be willing to work harder in my college years if I know that my own money is on the line  Oh yeah, and I also plan to go through CollegePlus.




What caused you to decide to work with College Plus? Have you started any classes yet or taken any CLEPS?


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

There are plenty of ways to earn an accredited degree without spending big bucks. Clep tests, DANTES exams (you should be familiar with those Ben), community college courses, etc, are all ways to save money and earn college credit. My alma mater (I love big, fancy, Latin words!) is Thomas Edison State College, a regionally accredited college in Trenton, New Jersey, that focuses on distance education. Many of their students are in the military.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 12, 2008)

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> My alma mater (I love big, fancy, Latin words!) is Thomas Edison State College, a regionally accredited college in Trenton, New Jersey, that focuses on distance education. Many of their students are in the military.



Speaking of that, folks... did you know that (at least in the Army) you can get your bachelor's degree for free while on active duty and then get out and use your new and improved GI Bill to fund grad school? Wow!


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## Brother John (Nov 12, 2008)

I had a professing christian coworker tell me last week that if he does not believe that he will be able to pay for his future children's college that he will simply not have any. Apparently he believes that if one does not go to college life is not worth living .


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## Pergamum (Nov 12, 2008)

Financial necessity is one thing, but to "teach them a lesson" is another; unless a son or daughter has a consistent past history of laziness such that they need to get a lesson in real life. Otherwise, help is a good thing.


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## Ivan (Nov 12, 2008)

My parents didn't help me. I was able to get a scholarship for college and work part-time. In seminary I worked full-time and was given a scholarship also. I left seminary with more money than when I arrived. I got another masters degree that the library I worked at paid for. There are ways, as mention in previous threads. 

My parents weren't mean. You aren't either.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

Blev3rd said:


> Calvinist Cowboy said:
> 
> 
> > Blev3rd said:
> ...



TESC is an amazingly versatile school! That's what I liked best about them! True it takes an incredible amount of study (I took an exam every two weeks), but it is not too hard. I was able to balance a part-time job, courses at a community college, and those exams, all without going insane!  The tuition at TE is reasonable, and they accept a wide variety of tests and life experience for credit. It does take a large amount of organization, and I think that is the hardest part of it. You have to discipline yourself to study, and then study some more. Those "insignificant" pleasures have to go (like watching movies, reading books [other than textbooks], listening to sermons [except for John Piper of course], etc.)

You've probably asked me something else by now, so forgive me if this post isn't current!


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## larryjf (Nov 12, 2008)

Just have them go to the completely free North American Reformed Seminary.

I know...that was a bit of a shameless plug.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

larryjf said:


> Just have them go to the completely free North American Reformed Seminary.
> 
> I know...that was a bit of a shameless plug.



Free is nothing to be ashamed about!


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## fredtgreco (Nov 12, 2008)

Ben,

Can I make a suggestion that I am surprised no one has made before:

Don't worry about that now. How old are your kids? Why would you possibly lock yourself (metaphorically speaking) one way or another into a position that might not be applicable in 20 years? Seriously. Go chill out and have an iced tea.


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## Zenas (Nov 12, 2008)

This is all opinion in the end, so it really doesn't matter all that much. 

It's hard for me to give an opinion without more information. Personally, I don't plan on being able to help my kids with college because, hopefully, I'll have too many to pay all those tuitions. 

Potentially, you may not need to pay tuition if your children do well in school and earn scholarships. My fiancee' and her two brothers didn't pay for nearly any of their college because they had scholarships to cover it. Her younger brother actually gets paid a substantial sum to go to school over what he needs for tuition. 

On the information I have, I would say no because you're doing it for their benefit in the end. In your judgment, it will be better for their character if they have to suffer through it. This probably has some truth to it.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 12, 2008)

I would say no. BUT you then have a severe responsibility to teach them to manage their money and save. If you don't teach them that _and_ don't provide for college, then I wouldn't call you a jerk, but I would say you were irresponsiblefor taking that tack.

We've got nine, we're not paying for college. But they know that from the time they are old enough to get an allowance for dish/laundry/bathroom duties. To me, that's fair.


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## VictorBravo (Nov 12, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> Ben,
> 
> Can I make a suggestion that I am surprised no one has made before:
> 
> Don't worry about that now. How old are your kids? Why would you possibly lock yourself (metaphorically speaking) one way or another into a position that might not be applicable in 20 years? Seriously. Go chill out and have an iced tea.



I think he's responding to pressure to start a 529 plan now. It's all the rage because it allows for tax free growth that can be used for any sort of educational expense (and some other things too).

I actually have clients in the same quandry. They want to do right by their kids, either give them a head start or give them a lesson in self-sufficiency.

There are other approaches that might relieve the burden some. You could set up different kinds of trusts or forget the whole thing and put savings in your IRA that they could inherit when they are adults and presumably responsible. There are many ways you can have more control over how the built-up funds are spent in the future.

But I agree with Fred. You don't have to do any of this right now. There is time to give it deliberate thought without being pressured.


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## AThornquist (Nov 12, 2008)

Blev3rd said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > My parents aren't helping me through the vast majority of my college years. I am totally fine with it. I will be willing to work harder in my college years if I know that my own money is on the line  Oh yeah, and I also plan to go through CollegePlus.
> ...



Well, I live in the dirt hole of California. Having heard about College Plus through Vision Forum and considered my other options, going the College Plus route seems to be my best option. And no, I haven't been able to start yet. I just started working at my new job (Praise God!) so I have a while until I can even afford it. Are you considering College Plus, or are you associated with it?


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## Honor (Nov 12, 2008)

i would say... what is the harm in setting aside a few extra dollars in a college fund now... I mean if they do really well in school and they get full scholarships then you can use that money to buy them a reliable used car. but debt is never a good way to start out... I can say that I have NO student loans... never had, never will... but I also never went to college either. couldn't afford it. wouldn't it be a shame if your kids didn't go because they didn't want debt and couldn't afford it and didn't want to join the military just to get an education. (not saying that there is anything wrong in that but what if your child wanted to be a painter? Or in Fashion design or whatever) do you see what I mean? I mean what if you change your mind and it's too late? can't you save now decide later?


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## Pergamum (Nov 13, 2008)

Honor said:


> i would say... what is the harm in setting aside a few extra dollars in a college fund now... I mean if they do really well in school and they get full scholarships then you can use that money to buy them a reliable used car. but debt is never a good way to start out... I can say that I have NO student loans... never had, never will... but I also never went to college either. couldn't afford it. wouldn't it be a shame if your kids didn't go because they didn't want debt and couldn't afford it and didn't want to join the military just to get an education. (not saying that there is anything wrong in that but what if your child wanted to be a painter? Or in Fashion design or whatever) do you see what I mean? I mean what if you change your mind and it's too late? can't you save now decide later?



One comment about just one phrase in your post: 

I do think there is something extremely wrong with joining the military "just to get an education" instead of mainly for a sense of duty to country. That is a mercenary, not a patriot. Unless motivated for abstract, "patriotic" or a sense of duty, find money elsewhere.





Also, in general: 

I wonder if this lack of helping out your kids in college despite your stable career in the army will affect your kids later when they discuss what to do with their dear old dad when your 80 years old and they wanna put you in a home. 

If one is poor, there is no sin in letting your kids go it alone. 

Butif one has a stable career and a guarenteed retirement, watching tivo while collecting retirement while your kids work 3 jobs and incur 100,000 in school loans until age 35 is heinous (unless they have repeatedly shown a nature of laziness and are needing a lesson in real life).

One suggestion is proportional contribution: Working out with your kids what is expected of them and what is expected of you. You contribute a certain portion and they help out as they are able. It is all about launching them out with the best beginning that is possible, isn't it? 

Few are "self-made men" - climbing any social ladder takes generations of parents helping children. In a cold world and an iffy job market, to deprive your children of resources (if they are studying hard and working hard) at the most critical time for them when you do, in fact, have those resources if not wise.


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## Honor (Nov 13, 2008)

Mr. pergamum... it's late and I have had little sleep so maybe I'm just not on the same train as you.....the gentleman who started the thread said that not me... wait... I'm confused


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## Mushroom (Nov 13, 2008)

Why did you decide to have kids if it was not your intent to do whatever you could to give them the best possible prospects that you are able? If you are unable to help them due to hard providences, then you are not a jerk. But if you don't want to because you want instead to take your ease or buy yourself an RV and see the country, then you are a jerk, and should have decided not to marry and have children. Can you picture Abraham refusing to help Isaac, or Joshua refusing to help any of his twelve sons to get ahead in life, if were within their means to do so?

Sorry brother, but I think this is an asinine question, more characteristic of a selfish pagan than a christian, much less a reformed and covenantal believer, and even more especially of a PCA Teaching Elder! You have more in common with my dead, unbelieving, hell-occupying father after the flesh than the Fathers of the faith in this. He spent his relatively large income on profligate living, drink and whores, while begrudging every penny he paid towards my older brother's education, which is why I refused to ever ask him for any help. He was embarassed by the fact that the children of his colleagues were far more successful than his own, while ignoring the fact that the only teaching they ever got from him was the '4 f's', and zero support in their schooling except that he'd beat the crud out of them if he had to go to a teacher meeting or got called about discipline problems because he didn't want to be bothered. All while his colleagues monitored their kids' progress in school and did what they could to get them into the best schools possible.

So yeah, as an officer in the military with the means to help, you are, officially, a jerk about this. I hope you rethink it. Sorry to be brutally honest, but I think you need it from someone who's been on the receiving end of your attitude. That taught me to be as proactive in helping my children as possible to improve their prospects, to the best of my feeble ability. I may not be able to do all that much, but my kids will know that I've done the best I could. Who the heck else do they have in the world to go to bat for them? God gave them me, for which I pity them, but I read where He tells me that any who does not provide for his own is worse than an infidel, so I am determined to stand up, suck it up, and do whatever I can as He permits me. They deserve at least that. I've survived a lot of hard things in life, but that doesn't mean I'd wish them upon my children. That's nuts.


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## Jen (Nov 13, 2008)

My parents have decided that as they have the means, it is their responsibility to pay for our education until we marry (as my dad put it -- they're not Americans and so don't feel compelled to let go entirely of their children just because they turn 18). We're (that is, my brother and I) expected to go to college and do well there. (My brother, though, got married this past summer, and so is now working full time to support his wife and newborn.)

On the day of my last final of my first semester in seminary, it will be exactly two years since I walked at UCD -- a month and a-half shy of my 21st birthday -- the second person on both sides of the family to graduate from university, and the first of my generation of the family to graduate (which makes sense since I'm the oldest). Having your parents pay for school is a powerful motivator, or, rather, can be. Of course, it does help when everything you want to do requires a post-graduate degree...

That said, though, had my brother been required to (help?) pay for his education, I wonder if things might have turned out differently...


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## Matthias (Nov 13, 2008)

My two cents.... 

I have always had to fend for myself when it came to things such as education, vehicles, furniture etc etc etc and even though it wasnt always fun at the time, and I may have even resented it a little bit, I think it was for the best. I have been able to make it through some very tough times because of it I believe.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 13, 2008)

> Don't worry about that now. How old are your kids? Why would you possibly lock yourself (metaphorically speaking) one way or another into a position that might not be applicable in 20 years? Seriously. Go chill out and have an iced tea.



Why start now? Compounding, my friend. We know we will never be able to afford to send our children to university, but we still put away what we can for them now, because it makes it that much easier on them. They know they will have to fund the bulk of it, but we do want to help where we can, and leaving the money to work for us in savings makes the burden on both parties that much lighter.

Think about this, Ben: Putting a lump sum of $1000 away for a child now, and adding $100 a month will bring you to almost $40K in 15 years, assuming an 8% return. I think that most can afford saving that sort of money. It still won't pay college, but makes a nice dent. If you wait until 5 years before to start saving like that, you will have only $9K+ in hand, because you've missed out on the ten years of compounding interest. No-one will say that 8% sounds reasonable as of Nov, 2008, but 10% average return is actually more likely over the 15 years, which brings you to over $46K. Will you really miss $25 a week?


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 13, 2008)

No, I don't think you're being a jerk.

I have education accounts for my children, but they are pretty modest. I start each account out at $500 and put in $25 / month. The grandparents kick in a couple hundred dollars a year as well. When you do the math, it might pay for 1 year when they come to go to school.

The rest will be up to them, and that's okay. When they're going to post-secondary they're supposedly steps away from all the responsibilities of adulthood, and being forced to work and budget is part of the process of getting ready for the day when dad won't be there to catch them when they fall. I sometimes think that I learnt more life-long lessons working midnight shifts in a plywood mill to pay my way through school than sitting in a classroom. I wouldn't want to deprive them of that.


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## Nate (Nov 13, 2008)

> Putting a lump sum of $1000 away for a child now, and adding $100 a month will bring you to almost $40K in 15 years, assuming an 8% return. I think that most can afford saving that sort of money. It still won't pay college, but makes a nice dent.



I think this type of plan is a great idea. My parents did something similar to this in order to help me and any of my siblings that needed assistance with college/cars/home loans or anything else that was necessary. 

One thing that I am a little confused about while reading through this thread is that most posters seem to think that a quality education equals hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. There are literally hundreds of colleges/universities in the US alone where a great education can be had for less than than the $40K alluded to in the above quote. An undergraduate degree from these types of institutions will not hinder your acceptance into the job market or into the prestigious graduate schools around the country.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 13, 2008)

Sorry, what I was alluding to with the $40K not paying for college is that we have so many that $40K won't make a huge dent in *our* case. But you're right, for forty thousand dollars, you can often get a full eduction. If you only have only one child, it shouldn't be that easy to get them through, or at least to help. 

I do agree with the premise that giving it all to them may not be the way to go. I worked after school (during highschool) and all holidays I was home (in university) at a metal-stamping factory to help pay for my education. It _is_ character building and good for the child in question.


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## Nate (Nov 13, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> Sorry, what I was alluding to with the $40K not paying for college is that we have so many that $40K won't make a huge dent in *our* case. But you're right, for forty thousand dollars, you can often get a full eduction. If you only have only one child, it shouldn't be that easy to get them through, or at least to help.



My fault, I misread your initial post. I agree that working a part-time during high school and even through college to help defray costs is a wise idea. I've been acquainted with too many students that have no responsibilities other than school who have way too much time on their hands and are worse off for it.


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## CatechumenPatrick (Nov 13, 2008)

Of course, you didn't do it yourself--God blessed you with the appropriate means to not require help from your parents. He could have equally done otherwise, and made your life such that financial assistance from your parents would be the only way you could have afforded college. And of course #2, by any estimate it is only getting harder to pay for college and harder to make money. Jerk? Probably not. Arrogant? Maybe. 
Here are better questions: Is there anything wrong with parents who do want to help their children in college? Do you take your position in your family as normative for all, or all relevantly similar families? What do you think about students today, say, Reformed students, whose parents to pay for their college?


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## he beholds (Nov 13, 2008)

OK, I voted jerk, in case your trying to figure out who the four haters are, but I don't think that _exactly_. I don't think being _unable_ to pay for your kids college is a jerk move (unless you could have been able but was selfish all along), but I do think being able but unwilling is pretty jerky. To me it doesn't seem worth the lesson, if that is truly your intentions. You will have your kids for 18 years before it's time for college, do you suppose you could manage to get that lesson in BEFORE they actually need it? I guess I'm not a fan of learning by fire, unless that is fire sent from the LORD. (And still not a fan, but I trust _him_ to always do what's right, but trusting finite beings like myself, not so much...)

I would think something reasonable would be to take advantage of the starbucks, UPSes, and IKEAs of the world and work while in school at a place that pays part of tuition, plus use scholarships, but also have help from parents with the rest. Why couldn't you and your children both work toward this if possible? 

For full disclosure: My husband and I live on his income alone. He's a public school teacher. You do the math. We probably will not be able to afford to pay for our kids' educations. One of our thoughts is if my husband can get his doctorate and teach at a college, preferably a Christian one, they'll be able to go for free/reduced, so that idea is always on the back burner. But that is something my husband would like to do anyway, so that wouldn't be a huge sacrifice in the end. We plan on me homeschooling my children (we have two now, but hope to have as many more as God will allow--or well, we'll see...)
so we can never count on me having an income. (I was a school teacher as well, but I taught for one year at a Xian school making $16,000 that year WHILE my husband was in grad school, and working at IKEA which paid $5,000/year for school, so we've never been a dual income family.) So it is a definite possibility that we will not be able to help much for our kids' education. Even at this, I feel jerky. But we aren't even on track to ever be able to buy a house. If we can better budget and prioritize, (especially being encouraged by Brad's response speaking of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac) then we will help our kids. Not because they deserve it, but because they need it.


My husband and I both went to Geneva College. When I graduated, it was around $22,000/year. My husband graduated debt free, for his parents paid for everything that scholarships didn't cover. I graduated 20K in debt, for my dad paid for almost everything that scholarships didn't cover. My husband's parents sent three kids to college, two chose private schools. His parents are very frugal and thus they are able to be very generous. They would help us in anyway we would need. His dad was a steel worker ages ago and then did other factory-type jobs and his mom taught in a Xian school. They never made boatloads of money,(after 23 years at the same school, my mother-in-law makes like $20,000/yr...Xain schools...another thread necessary!) Anyway, through self discipline, they've saved enough to care for three children while growing up, send them to college, and continue in that generosity today. My in-laws are the most loving and selfless people that I know, and I think THAT is a lesson much more important than one of self-sufficiency. Come on...which of us is self-sufficient?


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes you're a jerk. What does paying for college have to do with that question? 

I appreciate my father paying for my college room and board. I had an ROTC scholarship for 3 years.

I wouldn't dare to presume telling anybody else if they should pay for their child's college education.

As for me, I'm increasingly convinced that if I pay for my kids' college then it will be for a State school.


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## matt01 (Nov 13, 2008)

My parents were unable to assist with my college expenses, but thankfully Uncle Sam was there, and more than willing to fund part of it. I am at least 16 years from having to worry about this decision (unless they are really smart, in which case we won't need to worry about it), but would like to be able to help my daughters in some way if possible.


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## JBaldwin (Nov 13, 2008)

Western society on the whole has swallowed the lie that everyone should go to college. We've also swallowed the lie (as has been said) that college has to cost over $100,000. We've also swallowed the idea that all parents should provide a college education for their children. 

I believe every parent should do everything they can to help their children get a good education for the best price, and in the best time frame possible, but that doesn't mean they should plan to fork out thousands of dollars for an expensive college. Trends in education have changed drastically since some of us went to college. 

In most places in the US, good students can take classes at community colleges for credit (transferred to their college record when they graduate from high school) while they are still in high school. This is much cheaper in many cases. 

There is also the option of attending a community college for two years with the intention of transferring credits into a larger school for the last two years. 

The high tuition bubble is going to burst before too long, and many universities are either going to under or they will have to downsize drastically. States colleges and universities are struggling financially. It won't be long, in my opinion, that higher education is going to look completely different in 10 years. 

Personally, I wouldn't just hand over money to my children for college, even if I could afford it. If I could afford it, I wouldn't pay for everything. Perhaps pay the tuition, but require them to work to pay for books, clothes, etc. By the time a child is 18 years old and ready for school, they should also be ready to handle the responsibilities of adulthood. in my opinion, that means handling at least some, if not all of the financial load. 

I knew early on when I was in high school that I would not have money for college, so I worked to get good grades, got a job and had saved up a good amount of money for my tuition. I didn't choose my education based on the school, but on what I could afford. I am thankful my parents were there to support me, and I am also glad they didn't give me a free ride.


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## Kim G (Nov 13, 2008)

I wouldn't say you're a jerk for deciding not to pay. That's your decision (along with the Lord, of course.) But it sounds "jerk-like"  to say that you're "unwilling" to help them. Even though I'm married, I am grateful to know that my parents are always *willing *to help my hubby and me if our car stops working and our apartment burns down on the same day. 

My parents paid for my entire college career, and I am very grateful. Because I didn't have to worry about finances, I maintained straight A's in my classes and graduated debt-free. I was also able to work in summer ministries because I didn't have to raise money for school. I counseled at a Christian camp for 11 weeks one summer and went to South Korea for two months another summer. I also had free time (and personal money) to spend on others. I contributed to 8 people's ability to buy plane tickets to the mission field for the summer, tutored friends through their English, history, Bible, and foreign language classes, etc. 

Because I grew up with money, I learned early that it's better to give to others than to spend time and money on myself. Now that I'm married, working full-time, and paying for my husband to go to school (he graduates next month!), I don't have the luxury of doing much financially for other people, and I miss it. But I am grateful for the Lord's providence for us.


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## BobVigneault (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm still waiting for the spin off poll..... is Ben a jerk in general. I'm proud of my own jerkness and would love to elevate anyone (men only) to jerk status.



Jerk. a contemptibly naive, fatuous, foolish, or inconsequential person.

Hey, who are you calling fatuous???


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## Blue Tick (Nov 13, 2008)

Proverbs 13:22



> A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2008)

Semper Fidelis said:


> As for me, I'm increasingly convinced that if I pay for my kids' college then it will be for a State school.



Care to explain why a State school?


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## nicnap (Nov 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> I'm still waiting for the spin off poll..... is Ben a jerk in general. I'm proud of my own jerkness and would love to elevate anyone (men only) to jerk status.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > As for me, I'm increasingly convinced that if I pay for my kids' college then it will be for a State school.
> ...



Cost. I had this strange idea when I was young that people were going to really care what institution you graduated from and that, if I didn't get into the "right school", I would be held back in life.

I've learned that where a person went to college is an interesting topic of conversation but that you can pay about 4-10 times more for the same education and you're in the same place starting out professionally. I went to school at RPI but my education would have been just as good at Texas A&M, Virginia Tech, UT, UM, Penn State, and a host of other schools that I would have paid far less to attend (if I had paid for it).


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 13, 2008)

Oh, and at my graduation at RPI, was a woman who had spent the first two years of her college at the local community college and then transferred in her Junior year into RPI in the Nuclear Engineering program. She saved herself $thousands in the late 80's that would translate to tens of $thousands today just for getting her base courses completed in community college before transferring to a University. My wife did the same thing with a Psychology degree.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2008)

To all you bleeding hearts who think that I'm sitting here spending my money on me while my wife and four children are wearing rags and only getting the bare minimum: Gimme a break.

I have a good job that enables us to have a good lifestyle. My wife homeschools and we spare no expense in regards to our homeschooling operation. There is no penny pinching. Whatever my wife wants - she does the teaching - she gets. Period. In addition, we pay for Scouts (for the boy), ballet (for the girl), piano lessons (for both), sports for both, and we're about to start up horse riding lessons. All because we want our children to be well rounded. We teach generosity and helping the poor. 

And it isn't like we have no designs to help them at all in life. We just have a pretty sound conviction, based upon the experiences of many, that our kids will appreciate their college education more if they earn it. 

How'd I do it?

Well, I was a lazy student in high school. I hated school. So, being a true knucklehead, when I enlisted in the army I didn't do the GI Bill - I took a puny cash bonus that I wasted. So when I got out (I was married then) my wife and I worked jobs while I took courses at a community college. Then I transferred to Moody Bible Institute which is just about the perfect way to get an education on the cheap: no tuition, only student fees. It cost about $600 per semester for BOTH my wife and me to take a full-load. Once our first born came along my wife quit her job and I worked full-time on top of school. Full-time on top of part-time ministry on top of school. Prior to attending seminary I cashed out my 401(k) to pay off her student loan balance from years before when she attended Northwestern College in Orange City, IA, for a couple years (before we got married). I went to Southern for seminary, my wife worked part time at UPS for our health benefits and I worked part-time as a security guard (more for the study time than anything) and I did the chaplain candidate program. The candidate program actually gave us the bulk of our living money. When I graduated seminary and was ordained - after 9 years of non-stop schooling - we had no student debt and only about $1500 of consumer debt. That was it. Where there's a will there's a way.


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## Mushroom (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah. My Dad claimed the same. He did it himself, why can't his kids? Through the GI bill. Of course he forgot to mention that the Mason's paid a good bit towards his education as well, that my Mom did most of his homework for him (he was no sharp tack), that my Granddad got him work and helped with their rent, that his older brother put him up for the first year, so on and etc., and also the little fact that he was the only one of ten kids in his family (6 sons) to ever get a college education. He died the proud father of 4 non-college educated children. As he experienced some level of repentance towards the end of his life he said many times that the biggest regret he had was not helping his children get educations. We heard a lot of speeches about how a college education was not all that important, which maybe you won't do, but if one is important, what are you saying to your kids about it by refusing to help with it?

I'm no bleeding heart by any stretch of the imagination, brother, but I read the scriptures that teach me that to not try to leave my children the best heritage I can is covenantal unfaithfulness. Its not a product of a bleeding heart to stand up and strive for better lives for your children. It is what christians do when they 'quit themselves like men'.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2008)

Brad, brother, you sound like a bitter man.


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## Mushroom (Nov 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> Brad, brother, you sound like a bitter man.


If so, then your prayers would be welcome, brother. I in turn will pray that God will guide you in the wisest course when it comes to the education of your children.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2008)

I appreciate that. 

We intend to do "nice" things for our kids. For example, we have a fund set up so that we can give them a wedding present to the tune of 10k. And since we want to reward success my wife has asked me to consider a plan to perhaps have them pay the cost of their schooling and at the end of the term if they maintained a certain GPA then we'd reimburse a certain percentage. We're not trying to be heartless. We just want our kids to learn to appreciate hard work.


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## Theogenes (Nov 13, 2008)

Ben,
No, you're not a jerk. We paid a bundle to send our three sons to a Christian school until they graduated (we tried homeschooling for a few years) and we told our sons that if they wanted to go to college they would have to figure it out. We've offered to let tham stay at home for free if they go to a local college or do online classes. That's how we may help them. I had to pay my own way and I think one learns to appreciate it more. I know of parents who have and are paying for everything and their children don't appreciate anything...they are SPOILED!
And, so far, its working out. My oldest works for a company that is paying his tuition, my second joined the Marines so he'll get the GI bill, etc. and my third is still a senior.
My  worth. (that's all I can afford)
Jim


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## christiana (Nov 13, 2008)

Well, did you buy your kids cars or did they work and earn the $ and buy the car theirself?

Its all a effort to instill self reliance, independence and hard work and to not expect handouts when they are in need, right? How to get there is achieved by different people in different ways it seems.


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## Zenas (Nov 13, 2008)

Seriously, your parental decisions regarding your children's education is none of anyone else's business. They're your responsibility, not anyone else's, so I wouldn't cave to outside influences and pressures if you can help from doing it. I'm hard-headed though. 

Your stated motivation in proposing to do this is to educate them, albeit not in the classical sense, but in the practical sense. I can't surmise that this is done out of anything less than love for your kids. This is the way you have deemed to educate them, whereas others have chosen other ways. Their consciences shouldn't bind yours.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks, Andrew!

I not only want my kids to learn, but I want them to learn discipline and all that jazz.
This is why I'd prefer they go to one of the Academies or VMI or The Citadel.


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## he beholds (Nov 13, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Seriously, your parental decisions regarding your children's education is none of anyone else's business. They're your responsibility, not anyone else's, so I wouldn't cave to outside influences and pressures if you can help from doing it. I'm hard-headed though.
> 
> Your stated motivation in proposing to do this is to educate them, albeit not in the classical sense, but in the practical sense. I can't surmise that this is done out of anything less than love for your kids. This is the way you have deemed to educate them, whereas others have chosen other ways. *Their consciences shouldn't bind yours.*



I wanted to add this but couldn't get it out! I think since scripture is silent on this, we should listen to our own consciences. When I first responded, he had yet to say, "We just have a pretty sound conviction..."
But based on that, I say please ignore my advice! And I apologize if I did attack your conscience.


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## BJClark (Nov 13, 2008)

Ben,

I haven't read through all the responses, but no, your not being a jerk for not paying for your kids to go to college.

My kids have known for years I could not afford college expenses for them so they would have to either earn scholarships or apply for financial aide, or loans of something if they want to go.

I have one in college now, she's been working part-time since she was in high school, she's saved her money and bought herself a car, so I didn't even buy her first car..

I did help her fill out the paper work for her loans and college grants, which she got. She opted for a two year community college to start out with, and is still living at home. So we are helping in THAT way..she doesn't pay rent, food or utilities, unless it's food she wants that I don't typically buy, then she buys those things herself.

She comes to me when she needs help w/ her budget or needs advice on which classes to take and scheduling..

Her best friend went away for college with her mom paying a big portion and scholarships paying part of it, she has failed three or four classes thus far, because she wanted to party as opposed to learn. And her attitude has been 'my mom will pay for me to take the class again, no big deal' and her mom has done so, until this year, her mom told her she needed to get a part-time job and start helping..because she is no longer going to fund her college if she's not even going to try. Her grades have improved now that she's having to help pay her own expenses, she's learning she really does have to be responsible.

Some of her other friends, who went away to college did the same thing, and ended up dropping out and are going to community college and working.

A lot of kids today seem to think college is not only a right, but that their parents are responsible to pay for it, and they can go and fool around and not worry about anything..their parents will ALWAYS be there to bail them out..

My nephew is also in college, my sister told him she would help him financially his first year, then he would have to figure it out on his own after that..he didn't believe her at first, but she continued to stress it, so he applied for ROTC and got in, so they are paying part of his college expenses as well, but if he wants spending money to go on spring break or go to sporting events, buying his video games and paying rent and do all the extra things he wants to do he would be footing the bill..not them..it's taken a few months but he's learning..the problem I see he's having, is they haven't really been willing to help teach him to budget..which I think is a mistake, but that's just mho..
but he'll do the same thing I did, and learn from his own experiences. 

Which is why I'm more willing to help my daughter, my sister lived at home and went to college, and had our mom's help with finances, and she thinks that hurt her, but I see the opposite playing out..

So there is more than one way to help them, you can help them as they get older learn to budget before they leave home, or allow them to stay home for the first two years while they go to community college..to help keep the expenses down..but your kids are still young and you have a long time to think about these things..


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## Dwimble (Nov 13, 2008)

TimV said:


> Nowadays you can't do it yourself, not normally. Where on earth is a kid going to get 100,000 dollars?...



In my opinion, in most cases where someone spends $100,000 dollars for college, they bought the culture's lie and got ripped off. Unless, perhaps, they end up with a medical degree or something similar, and even then they shouldn't do that on loans.

When you try to get a job, almost no one cares where you went to college. They don't care if you lived at home and went to city college for two years and transferred to the nearest state college afterward to finish, or if you went to the most expensive Ivy League college in the country. Generally they just want to be convinced that you can do the job. And once you have some good work experience, they REALLY couldn't care less where you went to school. In fact, for many employers it would be a point in the your favor if you worked multiple jobs and put yourself through school, because that tells them there is a good chance you are disciplined, motivated, and not afraid to work hard and long hours. I think there are a lot of myths surrounding college's supposed necessity, importance, and expense.

I recently looked up some census info and I was a little surprised to learn that about 50% of people in the U.S over 25 have "some" college and about 25% of them have a degree. Therefore about three-quarters of the population either never finishes or never goes to college at all. And worldwide, less than 1% of the population has a degree.

In my view college is a luxury and privilege, not a necessity or right. What I hate to see is adults (and these are "adults" we're talking about) who think their parents "owe" them an expensive education, when over 99% of the world's population never have the slightest chance to get that. I have no problem with parents choosing to pay for or not pay for college for their kids. I think most of it really depends on the kid. If he is an ungrateful sloth, then I don't think the parents should give him a dime, because he will likely squander it anyway. But, if he is a hard worker, responsible, and appreciates the help, then it may very well be worth paying for, assuming that the parents have that ability.


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## Ex Nihilo (Nov 13, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > Nowadays you can't do it yourself, not normally. Where on earth is a kid going to get 100,000 dollars?...
> ...



That is just not true. I have friends at other law schools who are having trouble getting any jobs at all, while my friends at Harvard are juggling multiple offers. (And my friends at other law schools are no less intelligent than I and have a _lot_ more practical knowledge about the law.) Additionally, even for students at Harvard Law School, firms may still care about the undergrad degree, too -- they certainly ask about it in interviews. 

Anecdotally, friends who went to elite undergrads had _much_ more interesting jobs during summers in college and after college if they took time off before law school. Most notably, they found it much easier to get government jobs or jobs with think tanks or ideological organizations (like the Heritage Foundation or the Federalist Society). If you were applying to a small employer and competing with 5-6 other applicants, where you went to college probably isn't a major factor in comparison to everything else. But when large employers are sorting through thousands of resumes, it absolutely makes a difference. It also makes a huge difference in the opportunities students know about.

One point that is confined to law school admissions, but may be applicable to med school/grad school admissions, too: It says great things about your character if you held down a 40-hour-per-week job and still managed a 3.5 GPA. But law schools, who are ranked based on the stats of their incoming classes, do not really care. The 4.0 student who hardly worked at all _will_ have the advantage, all other things being equal.

Also, as I understand it, Ivy undergrads have always been generous with financial aid and are becoming even more so. At Harvard College, a kid now doesn't have to pay anything if his or her parents make under $60,000 a year. For most families that make between $60,000 and $180,000, Harvard expects them to pay no more than 10% of their income. I expect that other schools will follow this lead.

Unfortunately this program does not apply to the law school, which leads me to your point about loans. I may be wrong, but I don't think it is irresponsible to take out $150,000 in loans when very high incomes are practically guaranteed upon graduation. (As an aside, I think it _is_ irresponsible to take out $150k in loans to attend a law school that doesn't guarantee its graduates that kind of salary.) I could have worked and scrimped for about 10 years with my English degree to save enough to go to Harvard Law School. Instead, I decided to take out loans, which, with good management, will not be difficult to pay off at an attorney's salary -- market rate for first year associates is $160,000. If I end up at a lower-paying job, I have some safety net, because the law school has a Low Income Protection Plan that helps to pay off loans. Other schools have similar programs. 

I don't mean to argue that this type of educational path is for everyone. In fact, it seems to me that as a general rule, it's better to go to a "Public Ivy" like UVA or Michigan or UT than to go to a top private school. However, the choice to pursue an Ivy League education on loans is not inherently irresponsible.


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## Ex Nihilo (Nov 13, 2008)

Joshua said:


> Yes, but Evie, what do you _really_ think?



I actually really dislike educational elitism.


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## Dwimble (Nov 13, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> Dwimble said:
> 
> 
> > TimV said:
> ...



Hence my statement, "a medical degree or _something similar_...", which you quoted. Obviously something like a degree from _Harvard Law School_ is an exception to the general rule. But that cannot by any stretch be considered normative or significant evidence that specific schools matter in normal circumstances. The fact is, someone who pays (or is given) hundreds of thousands of dollars to go somewhere like Harvard, and who ultimately actually graduates from there, fully expects to be offered the most elite types of postitions available. But that is clearly the exception, not the rule. The fact remains that with the exception of a few specialized professions, most don't care where you went to school.

I'm not going to get into the whole issue of the wisdom of getting loans for college...or loans for _anything_ for that matter. That's an entirely different can of worms.


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## DMcFadden (Nov 13, 2008)

Ironic question since I am on my 5th midwest college tour, now with my 5th child. 

My college education was paid for by the state of CA -- poor kids with good GPAs make out like bandits! My wife received her education by her folks.

Our first son went to Moody - only room and board + fees + books ($7-8k/yr). We paid so that he could go into ministry (UNLIKE his father) debt free. He got his masters courtesy of the church he serves.

Our second son went to John Brown. We paid + borrowed on a PLUS loan + saddled him with some debt after scholarships. He received a full ride for his MBA and went to a state school for his J.D. (Only $8k/yr for a VERY regionally respected degree). He finished college with a $20k debt but snagged a job with a top firm in the area (thanks to being in the top 8% of his class and serving as an editor on their law review) and is able to pay off his own debts.

Our older daughter went to Moody for her B.A. and Moody Grad School for her masters in only 4.5 years (summa too!). So, I incentivized her finishing early by paying the room & board + fees + books for the undergrad *AS WELL AS* the tuition (yes they do charge that for grad courses) + books for the graduate degree (the only one of our kids who received help beyond the B.A.). She exited seminary debt free, served in Germany working with teenage MK girls, then returned to the states and is teaching at a Christian high school (LOW pay).

Our fourth child went to Bible college for 1.5 years before dropping out. We paid for all of his room & board + fees + books. Now he is married and works as a custodian in a public library.

Our fifth child is with me on this weeklong sojourn. She applied to four colleges and was accepted to all but one so far.

My wife and I will "do all that we can" for her (= if she goes to Moody, we will probably pay it all; if she chooses a Christian liberal arts school, she will need to participate in the pain). My experience has been marked by debt and that causes me to want to keep my kids as far away from that as possible, unless they are planning to enter lucrative professions. Hence, the ministry-headed kids NEED to graduate debt free; the business majors can handle a modest amount of it. 

Do I have a moral obligation to give my kids a Christian college education? No. But, I want them to receive one and am willing to help them achieve that goal. They will have PLENTY of other things to sacrifice and suffer for without laboring under a $100k educational debt. And, for those heading into vocational ministry, it is a practical necessity to graduate debt free if at all possible.

BTW, my rule is that we will ONLY help with the first four years following high school. If you want to stretch it out to 6 or 7, the years beyond 4 are on your own dime. In the case of our daughter, she actually finished college in LESS than 4 years, hence my assistance with the graduate program.


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## Ex Nihilo (Nov 13, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> > Dwimble said:
> ...



I agree that it doesn't matter for most people, so I don't think there is substantial disagreement between us. But considering how many people could attend elite schools but choose not to (as I did for undergrad), I would probably define "normal circumstances" a little more broadly. It matters across the whole range of law schools, not just within the very top tier. It also isn't just for law students or med students that it matters -- it matters for undergrad, too. The difference is particular noticeable for liberal arts majors. A history major from an elite school can get a great job in the government or elsewhere; a history major from an average school usually cannot. (Some people have extraordinary networking abilities, so there are exceptions.) Does it matter most of the time? Maybe not. But it certainly isn't accurate to say that "almost no one" cares.

I should explain more about my perspective. I grew up in an average middle class family where elite jobs were considered outside the range of what normal people like us could strive for. Thus my parents advised me, when I was selecting a college, that it didn't matter much. I think this happens a lot. People write off a certain echelon of jobs as unattainable, when in fact they would be attainable if those people went to elite schools. While in no way regretting the decisions my parents influenced me to make, I do feel in the abstract that it's not necessarily helpful for a parent to assume that certain types of careers are outside their child's capabilities.

Of course prestige itself isn't really something worth striving for, but high-level jobs sometimes are more challenging, as I understand it. I am not advocating that children have a right to "pursue big dreams," or anything like that. _But_ there is something to be said for wanting to do as much with your mind as you can.

Nonetheless, I would agree that it doesn't matter whether your undergraduate institute was in Tier 3 or Tier 4 of those silly USNews rankings.


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## Dwimble (Nov 13, 2008)

I regret using the phrases "Ivy League" and "almost no one" in my original post, as I think they obscured my points and were inaccurate. Sorry about that. What prompted my post was the statement that "normally" kids can't afford college on their own, coupled with the implication that the reason they can't afford it is because it costs $100,000. I think both of those statements are a myth, fostered by our society, the media, and by politicians.


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## Ex Nihilo (Nov 13, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> I regret using the phrases "Ivy League" and "almost no one" in my original post, as I think they obscured my points and were inaccurate. Sorry about that. What prompted my post was the statement that "normally" kids can't afford college on their own, coupled with the implication that the reason they can't afford it is because it costs $100,000. I think both of those statements are a myth, fostered by our society, the media, and by politicians.





I totally agree with that! This point is especially true for kids growing up in states like Texas with really wonderful and affordable state schools.


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## Herald (Nov 13, 2008)

There is no firm answer on this question. My wife and I are going to pay the majority of our daughters education. She will work to pay some of her expenses but we don't want her to go in debt.


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## Webservant (Nov 13, 2008)

Why bankrupt yourself to help them with college? That's not a good lesson in stewardship, and we still have younger ones to feed and clothe. If it's a question of not having the money (as in our case) the only way to pay for it would be for my wife to work outside the home. She could then no longer home school. I made a deal with my oldest son -- if I have the money, I will pay for community college. While he is a student, he can live under my roof for as long as he wishes without charge. As soon as he completes school or decides he wants to work full time, he can either move out or stay and pay me rent. As to college (as in, non-community) I don't have that kind of $$ but I will help junior get grants or scholarships. I will recommend against student loans.

I remind my children all the time that I have no degree and did not graduate from high school, and I am a veep in a large company and pull in enough to comfortably support 7 people. It can still be done.


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## OPC'n (Nov 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> We intend to do "nice" things for our kids. For example, we have a fund set up so that we can give them a wedding present to the tune of 10k. And since we want to reward success my wife has asked me to consider a plan to perhaps have them pay the cost of their schooling and at the end of the term if they maintained a certain GPA then we'd reimburse a certain percentage. We're not trying to be heartless. We just want our kids to learn to appreciate hard work.



Can I be your kid?!


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## Thomas2007 (Nov 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> My wife and I do not intend to help our kids pay for college. We did it ourselves and we're better for it. The only possible way they may potentially get me to even consider chipping in would be for them to attend either VMI or The Citadel.
> 
> So, am I a big mean jerk?
> 
> For context: many of my friends and family think that I'm a big mean jerk for not being willing to start up a 529 plan for the kids. (Some of these family members were the same ones who wouldn't help us out! Their excuse for why I should pay for my kids' college: I can afford to do so, but they couldn't afford to help us...)



I don't think so, but then I don't agree with this paradigm of thought that says a college education is a necessity for every person.


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## matt01 (Nov 13, 2008)

Webservant said:


> I remind my children all the time that I have no degree and did not graduate from high school, and I am a veep in a large company and pull in enough to comfortably support 7 people. It can still be done.



Times change. It may still be possible to do, but I wouldn't come close to recommending/encouraging it.


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## Webservant (Nov 13, 2008)

sans nom said:


> Webservant said:
> 
> 
> > I remind my children all the time that I have no degree and did not graduate from high school, and I am a veep in a large company and pull in enough to comfortably support 7 people. It can still be done.
> ...


There is a wondrous land beyond your southern border where, in spite of it's government's yearning to make socialists out of it's citizens, it is still possible to work hard and succeed without a formal education.

That being said, I do agree with you that it's not easy to make a living without a degree of some sort, and just so you know, I am not encouraging my children to take the route I did, though I will support any of them who wishes to graduate from high school and pursue a career.


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## BJClark (Nov 13, 2008)

Blue Tick;



> Proverbs 13:22
> 
> A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.



So in your opinion is a college educated parent the ONLY inheritance to leave one's children's children?


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## Jen (Nov 13, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> In most places in the US, good students can take classes at community colleges for credit (transferred to their college record when they graduate from high school) while they are still in high school. This is much cheaper in many cases.
> 
> There is also the option of attending a community college for two years with the intention of transferring credits into a larger school for the last two years.



Very true. California's community college system is brilliantly integrated with both the UCs and the CSUs. My last year of high school (10th grade), I attended concurrently -- they waived the tuition fees, so the entire cost of my college education that year was $12 + the cost of books ($6 registration fee). I then started full time the following fall -- at 16 -- and a year later, signed a transfer agreement that got me into a good university sans SAT and ACT scores. I was able to live at home, and I graduated before Gov. Schwarzenegger's budget cuts kicked in and the drastic tuition increases started.

I should also note that I don't know how I would've paid for college at age 15, either... I started my post-secondary education too young to drive and I finished it too young to drink -- that makes a huge difference.

I highly recommend the JC route whenever I can. (And it does happen that you go in with one plan and leave with another! Twenty minutes before my appointment with the admissions counsellor to sign my transfer agreement, I switched from physics to history. If I'd been at a four-year all along at that point, it would've been a costly change!)



sans nom said:


> Webservant said:
> 
> 
> > I remind my children all the time that I have no degree and did not graduate from high school, and I am a veep in a large company and pull in enough to comfortably support 7 people. It can still be done.
> ...



When our families were cleaning up after my brother's wedding reception, his new father-in-law was telling my dad how he had stressed to his daughter that it was very important that she do all she can to support my brother in finishing his education. My brother's father-in-law is also in a top position in a company sans college degree: he started but stopped in order to save money for more college -- but then he just kept moving up in the company. He freely acknowledges that it would be impossible for him to find the equivalent of his position at another company, because such a position requires not only a B.A., but also an M.B.A. He greatly regrets not having at least his bachelors, even though it worked out all right for him -- under no circumstances would he recommend anyone do what he did.

(And even though he's never said, I don't think my dad would either. He dropped out of university after deciding that his chosen field was boring, but was able to work in the family business in a tangentially related field [it was still a science], which he then took over when my grandfather retired.)


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## matt01 (Nov 13, 2008)

Webservant said:


> There is a wondrous land beyond your southern border where, in spite of it's government's yearning to make socialists out of it's citizens, it is still possible to work hard and succeed without a formal education.



I am quite familiar with that land. I was born in Florida, raised in Minnesota, and served in the Marine Corps in California, with several other stops along the way. I agree that it is possible, and commend you for your success, but see formal education as more of a requirement. In my current field (human services) the most entry-level position requires some formal post-high school education. It is not the best way, but it is the reality.


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## ForHisGlory (Nov 14, 2008)

I've thought a lot about this in the past. I graduated just three years ago with approximately $40,000+ in school debt (with minimal assistance from my parents). My dad was real upset about not being able to help. But after graduating, I thanked him for not paying for it. I saw so many kids wasting their time with no consideration for their "free" education. I learned so much about personal finance that no professor, parent, or teacher could ever teach me. I learned that I must study hard and do well (I strived for and received several scholarships - approximately $12,000), which would have meant more of a burden for me later on. I learned that I must work hard during school....that it wasn't just 100% fun time for me (and yes college can be fun with a full course load and a job). I learned that I can't just change my major forty times, extending my education another 2 years, becasue it's free and I have no consequences. In the end, I learned so much about personal discipline, making decisions, and work ethic than a free ride would have ever given me. One year later after graduating I paid off all my debt......thanks to a good lesson on finances.

However, being a recipient of so much grace, I think it is wise to show this as well. Therefore I came up with an idea that would both instill discipline in my children and provide a blessing should financial resources be available. I call it the "best of both worlds". This plan consists of encouraging them while they are young to work hard and study hard.....to strive for scholarships.....because they will have to pay for college. They learn all the valuable lessons I mentioned above AND MORE by supporting themselves and making those tough life decisions as a young adult. Then....after walking across the stage.....fully educated.....fully disciplined.....financially competent......and hopefully minimal debt....."here son/daughter.....here's $25,000 that your mother and I have saved for your college education. You've worked hard for this day and have learned many lessons that this money wouldn't have taught you 4 years ago. We're proud of you."

That's my plan.....Lord willing. First I need children. Then I need the finances to fulfill the second half of that plan.  But the great part is......if the second part doesn't work out, my child still learned some great and invaluable lessons.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 14, 2008)

> I am quite familiar with that land. I was born in Florida, raised in Minnesota, and served in the Marine Corps in California, with several other stops along the way. I agree that it is possible, and commend you for your success, but see formal education as more of a requirement. In my current field (human services) the most entry-level position requires some formal post-high school education. It is not the best way, but it is the reality.



Just remember, that in the frozen land north of the border, plumbers can make $70 - $80,000 a year; electricians about the same, depending on the state of the economy. University is _not_ a requirement for economic security.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 16, 2008)

I have had very little in terms of help from my parents while going to school. Honestly, it has bothered me to a certain degree that they were making 120 grand a year, but never saved any of it to help me or my brothers and sister go to college whereas I have an uncle who brings in alot less, but is frugal and paid for both of his daughters to go to Texas A&M. Both daughters graduated with good grades and are now set up for success.

I originally had my undergrad as a church music major with plans of going to Houston Baptist University. The school is so expensive that the maximum student loans you can get only pay a bit over half of the tuition. Everything else is on you. Seeing how I did not have all that cash laying around, I could not go to HBU. 

I understand the whole thing about the child learning lessons and all, but unless this child is a trust fund baby, then you not providing at least some financial assistance will limit your child's choices in terms of schools. If my kid was smart enough to get into MIT, I would want him to go and would do whatever I could to help him get there. I would not just tell him tough cookies figure it out yourself.

So in some respects I think you are being a bit unkind and have the potential of holding back your child's career.


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## asc (Nov 16, 2008)

I voted "no" to jerk, but i would recommend that you reconsider depending on your own family specifics. A good college education can be very expensive but can also be worth a lot, giving a person a significant edge in a competitive market and providing unique opportunities. By supporting your children financially with their college education, even if it's a small amount if that's all you can afford, you emphasize the importance of education to your children.

My parents expected me to go to a good university and therefore were willing to save for it. I expect likewise with my children and myself.

I applaud the folks that were able to work and study at the same time. Unfortunately depending upon a person's abilities or field of study, this may not be doable for your own children.


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## Wannabee (Nov 16, 2008)

Absolutely not a jerk.
My upbringing was far from ideal, but my parents did say they'd pay for college. I took it for granted and goofed off. My father did sort of end up paying for seminary, when I was serious and wanted the education (at 38). We used savings and my inheritance. I often wonder what he would have thought of that (we don't know if he was saved).
Your charge is to raise your children in the admonition of the Lord. They are to be equipped for life. They should learn things they can use to help them in life. Vocations are great. I've encouraged both of my sons to work a trade for a year or two. Neither really took me up on it, but I've taught them how to work on their own cars, work on the house, and they've worked with me on various jobs (they could stretch a barbed wire straight by about 9 years old).
We set aside a set amount of money for their college and told them it was available. During that time, if they needed it for education they could use it, but grants had to go into the same pool. And living expenses were their responsibilities. They could stay home and pitch in, alleviating costs. But the money was for education only. They've needed very little so far. In fact, one of them has more in it now than we provided.

I'm not huge on education, in case that was missed. It's valuable, to a point. But also overvalued in many ways. Teach them to love the Lord and strive for godliness. I made it clear to both our sons that I'd rather they were godly janitors than ungodly CEOs. In fact, the distractions of affluent positions often are not worth the earthly reward because they detract so much from focus on the heavenly treasure. They must live for eternity and the glory of God.

May God draw their hearts ever closer to Him, giving them a fervent love for Christ and a passion for His glory. And may He prepare godly spouses to strive together with them for the eternal blessing, honor and glory of their Creator.


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## Mindaboo (Nov 16, 2008)

My dad died in April of the year I was graduating from high school, to him that was "higher education". My dad had an 8th grade education, so in his mind a high school diploma was sufficient. Now a days, that isn't so. It is a challenge for those with a college education to get a job and even worse for people like me, who have no paper to state that I have an education. My parents never talked to me about college at all. I decided after graduation that I wanted to pursue community college, could have gone for next to nothing, but my mom wouldn't fill out the papers, so that I could get social security checks while attending. I just couldn't swing it. My parents kicked me out when I was just 17, made me work from the time I was 14 and it got me nowhere. I have a great work ethic, but a degree to go with that would have helped. I learned a lot about making my money last, paid for my first car and my insurance all by myself. I learned my lessons in a different way. 

Why wouldn't you want to help them if you are able? If you don't have the money that is one thing, but if you do, what harm will it do to help them? I wish someone would have helped me and I plan on doing all I can to help all four of mine to get a degree. I understand about teaching lessons in financial management, but I think we all owe our children the benefit of helping them accel in life. Can't they learn to be grateful without being forced into a ton of debt? I guess I am just not understanding why we want to send our children into married life with a ton of debt. 

We homeschool as well, and we do whatever it takes to make it happen. We go without to give our kids music lessons, a great co-op, the best curriculum we can provide, etc., but they need more than that. I have no degree and no one wants to hire a mom with no degree, but has a good work ethic. Wal-Mart and Food Lion just aren't that appealing for job choices for me. My son knows that he needs to stand up and be a man, if he wants a family he needs to be willing to do what it takes to provide for them. That requires college, and the last thing he needs is to go into married life with the weight of debt strapped to him. I want more for my kids than what I had/have.


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## vkochetta (Nov 17, 2008)

This is all good stuff.

I largely supported myself through school, saved while working through high-school and worked through college and had to take on some student loans.

What made it hard was sitting next to others who were getting a free ride from well intentioned parents. These folks rarely studied and barely knew how to manage their time and resources. Many spent hours partying rather than focusing on the tasks at hand.

I don't consider myself particularly diligent or self-motivated, but I did apply myself knowing that I was footing the bill.

My oldest daughter is considering colleges and I haven't finalized how I will approach it... how much to allow her to participate in the process.

Is it a "jerky" thing to bring merit into the decision? If a child is demonstrating diligence and responsibility, then reward that. If time and opportunity is squandered, then don't finance it. That's how it will (should) work in the employment world.

--- Vinny


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## he beholds (Nov 17, 2008)

I have a question--are children our responsibility until they are married? I think this would play into this discussion.


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## Grace Alone (Nov 17, 2008)

Our parents loved us and wanted us to have college educations, so they paid for it other than spending money, which we had summer jobs to earn. In turn, we are paying for our children's education along with some gifts from grandparents. Our son graduated with honors and our daughter graduated with straight A's...summa cum laude. She worked every summer and worked hard at her courses during the school year. She graduated early and started on her master's and completed it right before her 23rd birthday. We did have to use public universities with the exception that our son took some time off and finished through Liberty's distance ed. program (and that was mostly paid for through grants because he was 24 at the time and the aid was based in his very low income at that time). We have one more child in 7th grade and we plan to pay for her education, Lord willing. 

We believe that summer jobs or minimal part-time jobs while in college are sufficient to teach responsibility. Obviously the support would be cut off if the grades were not good. Immature children may need two years of community college before being sent to a college dorm. And it is certainly a good financial option to use a community college for the first two years.

Parents who cannot afford to help with college have no choice. But since we have the ability, we would not withhold good gifts of education from our children just as the Lord does not withhold good gifts to us. We would be willing to make sacrifices to help our children as long as they were holding up their end (making good grades and being responsible). That is our conviction.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 17, 2008)

he beholds said:


> I have a question--are children our responsibility until they are married? I think this would play into this discussion.



I agree that this plays into the discussion. If they ARE our responsibility until they're married then there would definitely seem to be some ramifications for the given topic.

I don't think they are. Adulthood is a culturally contingent designation. Our culture seems to award "adult" status in stages, but at the age of 18 they are given autonomous decisionmaking status. At that point you can't MAKE them do anything. I'm not responsible for something - or someone - I can't control.


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## Wannabee (Nov 17, 2008)

Obey your parents until you're 18 and it will go well with you???


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 17, 2008)

Wannabee said:


> Obey your parents until you're 18 and it will go well with you???



What's that supposed to imply?

The duty of a "child" to honor his/her parents is not related to the same period of time in which the parents have the duty to be responsible for providing the material support for that "child." 

So what's your point?


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## Wannabee (Nov 18, 2008)

It was a piggy back on your last paragraph and a rebuttal to the cultural idea that "at the age of 18 they are given autonomous decisionmaking status." It was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else - but the cultural influence on family is clearly seen when 18 year olds think they are no longer accountable to their parents. This flies in the face of biblical principle. Nowhere do we ever see a man not accountable to his father in Scripture, regardless of age. The only biblical exception is "in the Lord."

As for "providing for that child," I'm not sure Scripture is clear on that. I would put that in the "personal conviction" category, but, God help me, I would never leave my children without their basic needs, if I could help it, regardless of their age.


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