# Spiritual wasteland



## Christoffer (Mar 24, 2009)

Ok, so I live in Finland. 

When going to church I can basically choose between pentecostal chaos or liberalism.

I found a fellowship of conservative believers, which I am/was about to join. They officially belong to the lutheran church (liberal) but they have their own services and you apply for membership separately.

However, I fear liberalism is creeping in even there. Some time ago, the bishop of the finnish lutheran church (progay, pro-abortion) was accepted to preach at a service. Last weekend some priest, heavily inspired by roman catholicism, preached about the special place that Mary the Mother of God should have in the minds of christians. No one seems to care as long as a priest is preaching. The white collar automatically justifies everything, no discernment needed. Or so it seems. 

I personally know some of these people. They are conservative and doctrinally sound (relatively speaking) but they are so emotionally attached to the lutheran church that they could never leave. 

So I don't know. It seems like I, or more correctly, my family are out of options when it comes to finding a church.

I am sure this problem is completely foreign to Americans. I remember when I visited the states, there was a church in every street-corner.

But what would be the biblically right thing to do? Is it always best to belong to a church, even if they are unbiblical? Any suggestions?


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## wturri78 (Mar 24, 2009)

I think this may be foreign to Americans more because our national history doesn't go back very far at all, and although there's certainly a culture inherited from western Europe (England especially, obviously) the roots here aren't really that deep. As a nation there's no historical tie to a specific denomination or institutional church. But the problem of people being so loyal or tied to a denomination to ever consider leaving is not unfamiliar. I've noticed that among believers of many bodies, and many spend their time fighting their own churches from within.

Putting a church on every street corner doesn't always help the problem. Sometimes it may make things harder! Instead of one Pentecostal and one liberal church, maybe you can choose between 10 Pentecostal and 20 liberal churches!  Religion here is chaotic and just as strongly driven by personal choice and personal preference (a defining feature of America where "the customer is always right") as it seems your fellow believers are driven by loyalty to tradition and the Lutheran church. 

Are the liturgies and worship services at least sound? I've been to Episcopal services where the sermon was simply awful, but at least during the rest of the hour I sang classic hymns, read psalms, recited creeds and prayed orthodox prayers. I'd rather have that, than "happy clappy" shallow worship and a sermon that...well, probably would still be simply awful. At least in the age of the Internet, you can listen to sound sermons with your family if you haven't been "fed" in the church. 

I will pray for your situation and for all of Western culture. I fear that what you see in Europe now, could very well be what we see here in America in the not too distant future!


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## Tim (Mar 24, 2009)

Christoffer said:


> Ok, so I live in Finland.
> 
> When going to church I can basically choose between pentecostal chaos or liberalism.



Bless you, dear brother. You desire something deeper, something more true to the Bible and cannot find it. 



> I personally know some of these people. They are conservative and doctrinally sound (relatively speaking) but they are so emotionally attached to the lutheran church that they could never leave.
> 
> So I don't know. It seems like I, or more correctly, my family are out of options when it comes to finding a church.
> 
> I am sure this problem is completely foreign to Americans. I remember when I visited the states, there was a church in every street-corner.



You are not alone.

There are many around the world, and in North America where this is also the case. It does appear that there is a church everywhere you look in America, but sadly many of these buildings do not house congregations that are truly being fed by the Word of God. 

However, it may indeed be that things are more challenging in Finland. It wouldn't surprise me. 



> But what would be the biblically right thing to do? Is it always best to belong to a church, even if they are unbiblical? Any suggestions?



I also live in an area where there is no ideal church for me. So I committed to attend the best one I could find. It is always challenging for me and sometimes I come home from church on the Lord's Day more discouraged than I was at the beginning of the day. But I have noticed that God always gives me grace to get through things. A small encouragement here and there always goes along way when it is from the Lord. 

On the Puritan Board, you will get different opinions as to how unbiblical a church must be in order for it to be better that you don't attend at all. I think most here would agree that if a church maintains a damnable heresy (i.e., if you believe what they teach, you are believing a false gospel) you ought not support it.

Otherwise, if a congregation is truly a part of The Church (capital "C"), I think one does their best to be a light in dark places and to participate in The Body. 

Christoffer, do you know people that agree with you? Even one or two? These people can be a great comfort to you. Encourage them. Ask them to encourage you. Stick together but don't aim for division through this. 

Pray. Tell God your discouragements and challenges. Will He not want to aid you as you serve Him?

I will pray for you too, brother. Blessings.


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## OPC'n (Mar 24, 2009)

I will pray for you. Makes me realize even more how blessed I personally am and I don't thank God enough or take advantage of His goodness like I should. We have been given so much here....I wonder how long it will last before God decides to hand it to a more responsible nation. Have you thought of going into the ministry?


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## turmeric (Mar 24, 2009)

I just checked the PCA's Mission to the World website - no church plant in Finland! Why?


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## ExGentibus (Mar 24, 2009)

Dear Christoffer, I understand and share your concern. These days, Europe seems indeed to be a spiritual wasteland, from north to south. Confessing Christians (the few that seem to be left) are looked down as ignorant cavemen. Conservative Christians who believe in the Bible are _always_ labeled as americanised fundamentalists that must be paternalistically re-educated or extirpated. Matters get worse here in Italy, where the word _catholic_ is used as a synonym of _christian_ and "protestant" is associated with Jehovah's Witnesses or with the pro-gay, pro-abortion Waldensians.

Where I live there are no sound churches: apart from the catholic temples, there are only the hyper-liberal methodists, the charismatics and a small evangelical baptist church. I am trying to attend the baptist church, but for a staunch presbyterian like me it is not easy.

Whenever possible, I watch the Sunday webcasts of Tenth Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia, or Ballymena Free Presbyterian Church, Northern Ireland.

We all need the prayers of our brethren.


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## Christoffer (Mar 24, 2009)

sjonee said:


> I will pray for you. Makes me realize even more how blessed I personally am and I don't thank God enough or take advantage of His goodness like I should. We have been given so much here....I wonder how long it will last before God decides to hand it to a more responsible nation. Have you thought of going into the ministry?



Yes, I would like to do something in order for spreading the reformed faith. I've thought about it many times.

But I have no idea on how to go about or what to do. There is a reformed church (presbyterian) in Sweden, one of our neighbouring countries. They want to plant reformed churches in all of the nordic countries. I will go visit them in April. We'll see.

But I am not too optimistic. Even the christians here get offended by the doctrines of grace. They almost get offended in you mention that progressive taxations is theft 

-----Added 3/24/2009 at 10:56:06 EST-----



ExGentibus said:


> Dear Christoffer, I understand and share your concern. These days, Europe seems indeed to be a spiritual wasteland, from north to south. Confessing Christians (the few that seem to be left) are looked down as ignorant cavemen. Conservative Christians who believe in the Bible are _always_ labeled as americanised fundamentalists that must be paternalistically re-educated or extirpated. Matters get worse here in Italy, where the word _catholic_ is used as a synonym of _christian_ and "protestant" is associated with Jehovah's Witnesses or with the pro-gay, pro-abortion Waldensians.



Exactly. I can imagine how it must be in Italy, where the catholic church is strong. 

There is a mild persecution here for the moment, especially regarding priests who preach against gay "marriage" and abortion. It's not physical, not yet anyway. 

I believe that when the presecutions really get going they will be spearheaded by priests (liberal ones). Strangely enough, they seem to be the most aggressively secular



> Where I live there are no sound churches: apart from the catholic temples, there are only the hyper-liberal methodists, the charismatics and a small evangelical baptist church. I am trying to attend the baptist church, but for a staunch presbyterian like me it is not easy.
> 
> Whenever possible, I watch the Sunday webcasts of Tenth Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia, or Ballymena Free Presbyterian Church, Northern Ireland.
> 
> We all need the prayers of our brethren.



Will consider listening to internet sermons. Thanks


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## PresbyDane (Mar 24, 2009)

You should listen to internet sermons that is what THE (as in one=me) danish do.


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## ExGentibus (Mar 24, 2009)

Christoffer said:


> There is a mild persecution here for the moment, especially regarding priests who preach against gay "marriage" and abortion. It's not physical, not yet anyway.


Not yet, but there are signals. A few years ago the swedish pastor Ake Green was sentenced to jail for preaching a sermon about homosexuality. Two years ago, the previous government in my country tried to introduce the infamous hate laws that would punish with prison any "hateful" speech.
Our hopes are in our sovereign God.



> Will consider listening to internet sermons. Thanks


If you have a broadband connection, you can actually watch the full service.



Re4mdant said:


> You should listen to internet sermons that is what THE (as in one=me) danish do.


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## cih1355 (Mar 24, 2009)

ChristOffer,

I will pray for you. I'll pray that the Lord would save the ministers in your area and that they will start preaching the true gospel. Also, I'll pray that the Lord would send a missionary to your area who will plant a church that preaches the true gospel.


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