# War on Drugs?



## arapahoepark (Apr 4, 2021)

While drugs are bad and immoral (and immoral @Jerusalem Blade ), in what way should the government combat it in a Biblical way considering their widespread use?


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## Romans830 (Apr 4, 2021)

arapahoepark said:


> While drugs are bad and immoral (and immoral @Jerusalem Blade ), in what way should the government combat it in a Biblical way considering their widespread use?


why you interested? Marijuana is essentially legal now. it's the end times my friend.

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## Romans830 (Apr 4, 2021)

https://www.mljtrust.org/sermons-online/isaiah-5-20/moral-perversion


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## KMK (Apr 4, 2021)

Another related question: how should the church combat legal drug abuse?


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## Romans830 (Apr 4, 2021)

KMK said:


> Another related question: how should the church combat legal drug abuse?


Good preaching.

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## Pergamum (Apr 5, 2021)

I used medical marijuana gummies to help me sleep despite severe chronic pain until I got my procedure. It was safer than opiods and less addictive and felt better than Benadryl, which essentially intoxicates you as well and makes you groggy until the next day. It was a great relief and my sleep was finally restorative. But the Church is imbalanced on this issue. They prefer synthetic addictive opiods which cause many deaths to a little THC or CBD oil which tends to sooth a person and mellows out their anxieties.

Good preaching might prioritize the national epidemic of obesity which causes many to have chronic pain because their frames can't handle all that fat, and then they get hooked on opiods due to the back pain caused by their gluttony. Surely this kills more and is a bigger sin than medical marijuana.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> I used medical marijuana gummies to help me sleep despite severe chronic pain until I got my procedure. It was safer than opiods and less addictive and felt better than Benadryl, which essentially intoxicates you as well and makes you groggy until the next day. It was a great relief and my sleep was finally restorative. But the Church is imbalanced on this issue. They prefer synthetic addictive opiods which cause many deaths to a little THC or CBD oil which tends to sooth a person and mellows out their anxieties.
> 
> Good preaching might prioritize the national epidemic of obesity which causes many to have chronic pain because their frames can't handle all that fat, and then they get hooked on opiods due to the back pain caused by their gluttony. Surely this kills more and is a bigger sin than medical marijuana.


Yes, that's another issue: Christians overeating while making believe is no big deal and calling out other sins that apparently they think are worse. Food can get you high too and alter your mental state. Try driving after eating a whole pizza....ha. 

The issue is about abuse and overly relying on food and drugs to alter your mood or state of mind. It's a hard Topic. but I pray that God would help all faithful ministers be ready and equiped to rightly deal with the matter.


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## Pergamum (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> Yes, that's another issue: Christians overeating while making believe is no big deal and calling out other sins that apparently they think are worse. Food can get you high too and alter your mental state. Try driving after eating a whole pizza....ha.
> 
> The issue is about abuse and overly relying on food and drugs to alter your mood or state of mind. It's a hard Topic. but I pray that God would help all faithful ministers be ready and equiped to rightly deal with the matter.


Yes. We all can self-medicate in our weakness. Even going to the gym and lifting can become a self-medication to save us from our pains. We can and should help to lighten our mood through all lawful secondary means. Exercise and good food and sunshine helps us cope. But so do drugs/medications/food/substances and this can hurt us long-term. We can pray and pray to help deliver us from grief, depression, anxiety, or any other mental anguish, but God gives us 2ndary means such as friends, food, wine, drugs, exercise, sunshine, nature, etc to help us cope and I cannot blame someone for trying to cope by using at least some of these means. In my youth I was more rigid, but now I have suffered severe pain for a long time and I am very forgiving of someone who uses medications/drugs/substances to lesson the pain. It can get severe at times and we just need a little rest. Oh dear God, every day was a trial and I found no rest even in my dreams until I wanted to die. I am thankful the procedure eased my pain and I can think clearly again.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Yes. We all can self-medicate in our weakness. Even going to the gym and lifting can become a self-medication to save us from our pains. We can and should help to lighten our mood through all lawful secondary means. Exercise and good food and sunshine helps us cope. But so do drugs/medications/food/substances and this can hurt us long-term. We can pray and pray to help deliver us from grief, depression, anxiety, or any other mental anguish, but God gives us 2ndary means such as friends, food, wine, drugs, exercise, sunshine, nature, etc to help us cope and I cannot blame someone for trying to cope by using at least some of these means. In my youth I was more rigid, but now I have suffered severe pain for a long time and I am very forgiving of someone who uses medications/drugs/substances to lesson the pain. It can get severe at times and we just need a little rest. Oh dear God, every day was a trial and I found no rest even in my dreams until I wanted to die. I am thankful the procedure eased my pain and I can think clearly again.


Yes, depression and pain are horrible. I've dealt with depression all my life and pain from time to time. Depression is tricky. Sometimes there is no explanation for it. I say this respectfully and reverantly, but good Christian counseling, others praying for you, friends and relationships do not always solve the issue. Sometimes, it's just the way a person is. Sadly, most people don't seem to realize that. I believe in the power of scripture and the Gospel to save and change and redirect a person's life. However, we are still affected by the fall and the body of death even after regeneration.

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## Pergamum (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> Yes, depression and pain are horrible. I've dealt with depression all my life and pain from time to time. Depression is tricky. Sometimes there is no explanation for it. I say this respectfully and reverantly, but good Christian counseling, others praying for you, friends and relationships do not always solve the issue. Sometimes, it's just the way a person is. Sadly, most people don't seem to realize that. I believe in the power of scripture and the Gospel to save and change and redirect a person's life. However, we are still affected by the fall and the body of death even after regeneration.


Yes, brother, amen. This creation is Fallen and life is painful at times...even much of the time for some. All seems vanity sometimes. Thank God, He is kind and does not abandon us at our worst.

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## OPC'n (Apr 5, 2021)

War on drugs... just say no....hasn’t really worked has it? I’m not against legalizing drugs. Just because they become legal doesn’t mean a whole load of non-users will suddenly start using them. Making them illegal doesn’t mean a whole load of users will stop using them. It’s a sin problem. Possibly making them legal will take the criminality out of them and decrease the crime rate the way it did with alcohol IDK. What we do know is that making them illegal hasn’t done a thing, education hasn’t done a thing, and building more prisons for the sellers and users hasn’t done a thing. Only one remedy for drugs and that’s the Gospel. Maybe the church should start spreading the Good News if we want to see a change in this and a multitude of other sins.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> War on drugs... just say no....hasn’t really worked has it? I’m not against legalizing drugs. Just because they become legal doesn’t mean a whole load of non-users will suddenly start using them. Making them illegal doesn’t mean a whole load of users will stop using them. It’s a sin problem. Possibly making them legal will take the criminality out of them and decrease the crime rate the way it did with alcohol IDK. What we do know is that making them illegal hasn’t done a thing, education hasn’t done a thing, and building more prisons for the sellers and users hasn’t done a thing. Only one remedy for drugs and that’s the Gospel. Maybe the church should start spreading the Good News if we want to see a change in this and a multitude of other sins.


Well, If I remember correctly, the old testament nation of Israel had no prisons. They dealt with criminals and those who could not be rehabilitated in a different way. Not advocating theonomy but maybe we should take a closer look at it....ha.

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## Andrew35 (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> Well, If I remember correctly, the old testament nation of Israel had no prisons. They dealt with criminals and those who could not be rehabilitated in a different way. Not advocating theonomy but maybe we should take a closer look at it....ha.


One doesn't have to be a theonomist to observe that the modern incarceration system, like the modern public education system, is an experiment in abject failure.

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## Elizabeth (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> This creation is Fallen and life is painful at times...even much of the time for some. All seems vanity sometimes. Thank God, He is kind and does not abandon us at our worst.


 
And here is the crux of the matter. We steep in the belief (esp in America) that life should be grand, painless and easy. And it isn't for anyone, for long. Medications are sometimes necessary, for sure. But also we need to see this world rightly, as a place of enemy territory, so to speak. 

We'd be a lot less miserable if we expected difficulty, hardship and loss. We'd be a lot more grateful for the good, too. 

Our minds have been so warped by our materialism (in all senses). Trying to make this place our 'continuing city' leads to all sorts manifestations of need and greed and consequent pain.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> One doesn't have to be a theonomist to observe that the modern incarceration system, like the modern public education system, is an experiment in abject failure.


I know a lot people hate it or get worked up when the topic comes....just saying. That's all.


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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Elizabeth said:


> And here is the crux of the matter. We steep in the belief (esp in America) that life should be grand, painless and easy. And it isn't for anyone, for long. Medications are sometimes necessary, for sure. But also we need to see this world rightly, as a place of enemy territory, so to speak.
> 
> We'd be a lot less miserable if we expected difficulty, hardship and loss. We'd be a lot more grateful for the good, too.
> 
> Our minds have been so warped by our materialism (in all senses). Trying to make this place our 'continuing city' leads to all sorts manifestations of need and greed and consequent pain.


Well, I know some have thought that America was the city on the hill or the new heavens and earth. I Can't remember but I think that columbus or the puritan settlers believed that....ha.


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## Susan777 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> to a little THC or CBD oil which tends to sooth a person and mellows out their anxieties.


Ooops! Not so fast! I’m not questioning the legality or even the morality of marijuana use (although I tend to agree with Jerusalem Blade). I’m only wanting to point out that it is not as benign as some people claim. Back in the day I used it but had to stop due to the experience of paranoia. I never missed it or gave it much thought til about 50 years later when reports of delusional paranoia and even schizophrenic states were reported among teens needing ER intervention. Maybe this is partly because THC is so much more potent now compared to the stuff around 50 years ago. I don’t know but I have read credible sources that say that a small percentage of people, I’ve heard 10%, have dysphoric reactions that can be clinically significant.

There’s a huge pro cannabis lobby now and the growing and selling of the plant and its synthetic children has been almost completely corporatized. I expect what little opposition or concern remainI guess will eventually dissipate. It’s negative effects including amotivational syndrome, lowered sperm counts, depression, habituated use, are rarely discussed nowadays.

I agree that simple possession and personal use should have never been criminalized. Much injustice has resulted. 
Most people seem to find it pleasant and helpful, but I would never recommend it and I’m so glad my pastor doesn’t get high.


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## Pergamum (Apr 5, 2021)

Susan777 said:


> Ooops! Not so fast! I’m not questioning the legality or even the morality of marijuana use (although I tend to agree with Jerusalem Blade). I’m only wanting to point out that it is not as benign as some people claim. Back in the day I used it but had to stop due to the experience of paranoia. I never missed it or gave it much thought til about 50 years later when reports of delusional paranoia and even schizophrenic states were reported among teens needing ER intervention. Maybe this is partly because THC is so much more potent now compared to the stuff around 50 years ago. I don’t know but I have read credible sources that say that a small percentage of people, I’ve heard 10%, have dysphoric reactions that can be clinically significant.
> 
> There’s a huge pro cannabis lobby now and the growing and selling of the plant and its synthetic children has been almost completely corporatized. I expect what little opposition or concern remainI guess will eventually dissipate. It’s negative effects including amotivational syndrome, lowered sperm counts, depression, habituated use, are rarely discussed nowadays.
> 
> ...


Define "high" - there are millions in the US that pop an opiod and sleeping pills at night to sleep. Millions are also on mood-altering meds for depression and anxiety. This is essentially getting high or altering one's mind; suppressing one's system so that they can sleep or not dwell on their depression. Unless we argue that all forms of sedation for sleeping and all forms of mind-alteration through medication are sinful, then I see no problem with using gummies to help one sleep. They have worked it out so that there are no paranoid effects, and the "amotivational syndrome" is precisely why one takes it at night to sleep. Just as cowboys are not sinning if they get a guy drunk before pulling out a bullet when they lack other medicines, the use of marijuana at night to combat severe insomnia is a legitimate use of the substance. With the acceptance of cannabis, there is increased chance of folks improving the formula and making it even more useful for a variety of ailments.

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## Susan777 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Unless we argue that all forms of sedation for sleeping and all forms of mind-alteration through medication are sinful, then I see no problem with using gummies to help one sleep.


False dilemma, it’s not either/or. It’s about evaluating each situation/substance on its own merits. And if you like your gummies, you can keep your gummies. Your argument seems to boil down to: lotsa people take lotsa stuff so don’t pick on THC. Okay I won’t. I’ve found that it’s hard to have a reasonable discussion with people who are passionate in defending their marijuana use in whatever form they prefer. So enjoy.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Susan777 said:


> Ooops! Not so fast! I’m not questioning the legality or even the morality of marijuana use (although I tend to agree with Jerusalem Blade). I’m only wanting to point out that it is not as benign as some people claim. Back in the day I used it but had to stop due to the experience of paranoia. I never missed it or gave it much thought til about 50 years later when reports of delusional paranoia and even schizophrenic states were reported among teens needing ER intervention. Maybe this is partly because THC is so much more potent now compared to the stuff around 50 years ago. I don’t know but I have read credible sources that say that a small percentage of people, I’ve heard 10%, have dysphoric reactions that can be clinically significant.
> 
> There’s a huge pro cannabis lobby now and the growing and selling of the plant and its synthetic children has been almost completely corporatized. I expect what little opposition or concern remainI guess will eventually dissipate. It’s negative effects including amotivational syndrome, lowered sperm counts, depression, habituated use, are rarely discussed nowadays.
> 
> ...


Well, God had to put it on earth for a reason....ha


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## Pergamum (Apr 5, 2021)

Susan777 said:


> False dilemma, it’s not either/or. It’s about evaluating each situation/substance on its own merits. And if you like your gummies, you can keep your gummies. Your argument seems to boil down to: lotsa people take lotsa stuff so don’t pick on THC. Okay I won’t. I’ve found that it’s hard to have a reasonable discussion with people who are passionate in defending their marijuana use in whatever form they prefer. So enjoy.


Among drugs which mellow and sedate, I do not see a spectrum of morality. I was anti-cannabis for a long time. But then I saw the opiod epidemic in America and it makes it hard to pick on cannabis while millions over-consume opiods. If you licked a frog and it helped you sleep and was non-addictive, I'd be supportive of Sleep Frogs for everybody who struggled with severe insomnia. 

Your point is true that we must judge each substance. A few hard drugs seem to make people violent (we've probably all seen footage of folks on PCP or Angel Dust attack police or, in one case, eat a person's face off while high), so some substances due seem to stir up sinful effects. And laziness is sinful and pot seems to make folks lazy... But for a person who can lay for 10 hours in bed without a wink of sleep, I'd like to be lazy long enough to get restorative sleep. A doc prescribed xanax which is addictive and another prescribed a med which caused heart palpitations. So gummies work better. 

When it comes to medications for health/medical purposes, I think we need to carefully define the term "being high" since millions take drugs with sedative effects to help their health (sleep is restorative, after all, and if you don't sleep all systems in your body start falling apart). Nobody condemns a dental patient for 'getting high" to ease the pain. Few charge the person who pops 4 Benadryl of being a druggie even though these cause heavy sedation in high doses. And so gummies should fit into the same category, but is still stigmatized even today. 

True story: I have an older pastor mentor who struggles with health problems. He will not drink an ounce of alcohol and is a strict teetotaller. But the old guy pops so many hard meds that his pills would sedate an elephant. He spends much of every day "high" (sedated), even in the pulpit at times to handle his pain. And yet he would probably condemn me for taking a gummy to sleep.

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## Minh (Apr 5, 2021)

An interesting approach by Portugal: _decriminalizing drugs_.

"...Portugal became the first country to decriminalise the possession and consumption of all illicit substances. Rather than being arrested, those caught with a personal supply might be given a warning, a small fine, or told to appear before a local commission – a doctor, a lawyer and a social worker – about treatment, harm reduction, and the support services that were available to them." (reference).


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## KMK (Apr 5, 2021)

Appearing before lawyers and social workers is worse than prison.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Among drugs which mellow and sedate, I do not see a spectrum of morality. I was anti-cannabis for a long time. But then I saw the opiod epidemic in America and it makes it hard to pick on cannabis while millions over-consume opiods. If you licked a frog and it helped you sleep and was non-addictive, I'd be supportive of Sleep Frogs for everybody who struggled with severe insomnia.
> 
> Your point is true that we must judge each substance. A few hard drugs seem to make people violent (we've probably all seen footage of folks on PCP or Angel Dust attack police or, in one case, eat a person's face off while high), so some substances due seem to stir up sinful effects. And laziness is sinful and pot seems to make folks lazy... But for a person who can lay for 10 hours in bed without a wink of sleep, I'd like to be lazy long enough to get restorative sleep. A doc prescribed xanax which is addictive and another prescribed a med which caused heart palpitations. So gummies work better.
> 
> ...





KMK said:


> Appearing before lawyers and social workers is worse than prison.


Prisons are torture chambers. Horrible, horrible places..


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## Minh (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> Prisons are torture chambers. Horrible, horrible places..


I'd rather face the firing squad than spend my entirety in prison.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Among drugs which mellow and sedate, I do not see a spectrum of morality. I was anti-cannabis for a long time. But then I saw the opiod epidemic in America and it makes it hard to pick on cannabis while millions over-consume opiods. If you licked a frog and it helped you sleep and was non-addictive, I'd be supportive of Sleep Frogs for everybody who struggled with severe insomnia.
> 
> Your point is true that we must judge each substance. A few hard drugs seem to make people violent (we've probably all seen footage of folks on PCP or Angel Dust attack police or, in one case, eat a person's face off while high), so some substances due seem to stir up sinful effects. And laziness is sinful and pot seems to make folks lazy... But for a person who can lay for 10 hours in bed without a wink of sleep, I'd like to be lazy long enough to get restorative sleep. A doc prescribed xanax which is addictive and another prescribed a med which caused heart palpitations. So gummies work better.
> 
> ...


High in the pulpit... hysterical.


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## Susan777 (Apr 5, 2021)

I’d rather face the firing squad than read the Guardian.

(just joking)

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## Susan777 (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> High in the pulpit... hysterical.


We Presbyterians prefer our pulpits high, very high.

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Susan777 said:


> We Presbyterians prefer our pulpits high, very high.


I attended an OPC for a bit. Don't remember it being that high...ha


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## Susan777 (Apr 5, 2021)

OPC ain’t high church.

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## Edward (Apr 5, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> I attended an OPC for a bit. Don't remember it being that high


No one should be passing the "peace" in church in these days of Corona. Indoor smoking is bad, anyway.


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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Edward said:


> No one should be passing the "peace" in church in these days of Corona. Indoor smoking is bad, anyway.


Ha.....


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 5, 2021)

Hello Trent,

You said in the OP, “While drugs are bad and immoral… in what way should the government combat it in a Biblical way considering their widespread use?”

As was answered by Rich, it’s essentially legal now, and where it’s not will be soon enough. The world has opted to allow and even promote these drugs. You didn’t specify which drugs, so I’ll answer as regards those that are recreational and in the psychedelic class—marijuana, hashish, peyote, magic (psilocybin) mushrooms, mescaline, LSD, DMT, and others with like properties. What properties? What the Scripture calls sorcerous drugs, allowing interaction between the human sphere of consciousness and the demonic sphere, the barrier between the two realms able to be breached by sorcery, aka witchcraft.

Perg in post 6 says, “But the Church is imbalanced on this issue.” How so? He says, “They prefer synthetic addictive opioids which cause many deaths to a little THC or CBD oil which tends to sooth a person and mellows out their anxieties.”

So now at PB we have a Christian promoting THC (the active sorcerous ingredient in marijuana and hash).

From a paper I wrote on the topic, part of which touched on the medicinal use _for Christians_, I said,

Let me share concerning a New York State Supreme Court Justice, the late Gustin L. Reichbach. He made headlines, while a _sitting_ judge, that is, still practicing in the Court, by writing an op-ed piece for _The New York Times_ in which he acknowledged smoking marijuana to ease the side effects of his treatment for stage 3 pancreatic cancer. Without it he couldn’t eat or sleep. He wrote this in May of 2012, and died 60 days later. His plea for the legalization of its medicinal use was both courageous and heart-wrenching. To a non-Christian it might seem almost a no-brainer.

However, I am a Christian—and I am speaking to those of you who also are—and must spiritually consider, what is the cost of doing as the judge did? I do not believe Justice Reichbach was a disciple of Christ, but for a disciple what would the issue be? It would be opening the heart and mind to demonic activity. Let me put myself in his place: without some grass—_inhaled or ingested_—I cannot eat (my appetite has failed), and cannot sleep, both of which I need to sustain my life. But with it, I could do both. The pain of the cancer—if I tried to steer clear of the opioids which might make me groggy—could also be slightly diminished by smoking the grass. Would it be worth it to me? To the world this dilemma would be false, delusional, and _inhumane!_ To the spiritual man or woman it is vital and actual: would I allow my communion with Christ and communion with other disciples to be open to influence or infiltration by demonic beings? Just for the ability to eat something, or sleep, or to relieve pain? No, God giving me strength I would retain my integrity of being before Him and my friends. I would refuse to smoke or ingest the “medicinal” marijuana for the sake of keeping my _spiritual_ health and integrity. _Especially_ if I were in terrible pain with advanced, terminal cancer, I would not use marijuana for relief. I would rather have morphine or the like. Would anyone in their right mind, when on the very brink of death and entrance into eternity, open their hearts and minds to demonic influence? That would be sheer destructive madness!​
This will be my first post in this thread. No doubt more to follow.

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## Phil D. (Apr 5, 2021)

Taylor said:


> think you meant to post this in a different thread.



Yep - moved it- thanks!

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## Romans830 (Apr 5, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Trent,
> 
> You said in the OP, “While drugs are bad and immoral… in what way should the government combat it in a Biblical way considering their widespread use?”
> 
> ...


JB, I agree. However, there are also many other things that Christians do that open them up to demonic influence and the demonic realm like watching silly movies, bad music, yoga, aimless meditation, idols, and reading harry potter books.....ha. but the drugs are the worst.

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## gjensen (Apr 5, 2021)

Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with cannabis (and other drugs). I was smoking it regularly by the time I was ten years old. I smoked it well into adulthood. I am not proud of this. I admit this here to say that I am no stranger to these drugs. 

My extensive experience is that cannabis users are very unproductive people. They rarely do more than smoke their problems away. I was an exception and a workaholic. Still, the habit had a detrimental effect on my productivity and ability. Its use stole years of my life away. 

Marijuana is a sneaky drug that drains the life out of people. Using it becomes a way of life and it is an idol for most regular users. It is not a harmless drug. This is not a drug that you want a loved one to use regularly. 

I would support its use in extreme cases. An example would be Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. A very rare and extraordinarily painful condition. In this case, it would not be good at treating the pain, but as an add-on, it may help the patient tolerate the extraordinary pain. 
The drug may be helpful for those with intractable seizure disorders. 

I do not support its use as a sleep aid, or something silly like that. There are plenty of better options. 

I do agree that our system desperately needs reforming. I just wanted to speak to the idea that THC is harmless.

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## VictorBravo (Apr 5, 2021)

Minh said:


> An interesting approach by Portugal: _decriminalizing drugs_.
> 
> "...Portugal became the first country to decriminalise the possession and consumption of all illicit substances. Rather than being arrested, those caught with a personal supply might be given a warning, a small fine, or told to appear before a local commission – a doctor, a lawyer and a social worker – about treatment, harm reduction, and the support services that were available to them." (reference).


For what it is worth, possession of *any* controlled substance is, for now, decriminalized in the State of Washington.

https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/968730.pdf

Our State Supreme Court found the possession statute unconstitutional (after decades of being on the books and thousands of defendants going to prison) because it did not have an express _mens rea_ (criminal intent) element. In other words, it lacked the requirement that the State prove that possession was "knowing."

When I first came to this state as a lawyer, I thought it was an odd statute, but as a practical matter, "knowing possession" was easily proved anyway. Court cases before the most recent one either read into the statute a knowledge element or decided it wasn't needed.

It's caused all sorts of problems, including the question of who is going to repay all the fines that were unconstitutionally taken from convicts? Drug treatment centers are losing money instantly because courts cannot continue to make drug possession felons go to treatment. And many other permutations too long to list here.

But, hey, no social workers needed. No drug counselors. It's still a crime to possess with intent to distribute. You can have your personal amounts of meth, heroin, PCP, whatever, just don't share it.

We will see how this unfolds.

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## Taylor (Apr 5, 2021)

gjensen said:


> I just wanted to speak to the idea that THC is harmless.


But the over-the-counter cannabis, such as that which @Pergamum uses, does not have THC in it, correct?


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## VictorBravo (Apr 5, 2021)

Taylor said:


> But the over-the-counter cannabis, such as that which @Pergamum uses, does not have THC in it, correct?


Not correct. At least not in the pot shops around here.


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## OPC'n (Apr 6, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Trent,
> 
> You said in the OP, “While drugs are bad and immoral… in what way should the government combat it in a Biblical way considering their widespread use?”
> 
> ...


Do you think heroine opens your mind to demonic activity too?


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## gjensen (Apr 6, 2021)

Taylor said:


> But the over-the-counter cannabis, such as that which @Pergamum uses, does not have THC in it, correct?



I cannot speak to what he uses. Usually "gummies" do have THC in them. I have never seen CBD oil sold in "gummies". That does not mean that it isn't. I am only saying that gummies are usually sold with THC in them and are meant to be enjoyed as a recreational drug.

This is why I specifically mentioned THC. I understand that many use CBD oil for various purposes. I consider this a different product.

I must admit that I question the usefulness of CBD oil too. I am convinced that its usefulness is overstated, and it has become a money-making fad that will eventually fade away. Maybe not entirely, but mostly. The perceived benefits will wane, and people will stop giving away their money for something that is not really doing them any good. On the other hand, the products with THC in them will only be used more and more. As the stigma fades, the laws lift, more and more people will return again and again to what they are really getting a benefit from. They will spend more and more, and more and more people will become less and less productive.

THC use, except in rare cases, has no place in the believer's life.

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## Taylor (Apr 6, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Not correct. At least not in the pot shops around here.





gjensen said:


> I cannot speak to what he uses. Usually "gummies" do have THC in them. I have never seen CBD oil sold in "gummies". That does not mean that it isn't. I am only saying that gummies are usually sold with THC in them and are meant to be enjoyed as a recreational drug.


Thanks for the clarification. I really am ignorant of these things.


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## Pergamum (Apr 6, 2021)

Why would opiods in small amounts be ok, but THC in small amounts be the devil's substance? Medicine is to be judged by its effects upon the patient. It is hard to make a case that any is intrinsically and inherently sinful just because of what it is. Like alcohol, it's morality comes with its purpose and use. Even drunkenness can be excused in the case of the Wild West Bullet Removal, giving the patient whisky to ease the pain as a bullet is pulled out, or other meds given before hospital procedures to mentally calm the patient (even high doses of valium or xanax). 

The morality of a substance depends upon its purpose and use, not upon its intrinsic properties.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 6, 2021)

I would like to add to what I wrote above: I think Perg is a godly and fruitful follower of Jesus, who has suffered a lot as a missionary, with a large family, in a primitive area of the world. Likely most of his illnesses result from his exposure to malarial insects and other tropical diseases. So I have high respect and affection for him. The issue is fidelity to Scripture.

Apart from the thread title "War on drugs?" and OPC'n's remark that this "War... hasn't really worked, has it?" — except to say that it *is* a government's responsibility to enact laws that protect its people, although in this instance other factors have entered into the equation making its' current form moot — it would be more edifying to look at "_what_ drugs" and _why_ they are harmful.

Perg said is his post #18 "Define 'high'." Good question. After my open heart surgery in 1996 (quintuple bypass) I was given Tylenol 3 (with codeine) for the pain of the major incision. There came a point when instead of reducing the pain (which was almost gone) it became a euphoriant, and I said, "Okay, enough, I have no need to get high." "High" in that context meant producing euphoria, relaxation, anti-anxiety or anti-depression, as well as diminishing pain. I don't have any problem with that resulting from standard medications. After I had my gall-bladder removed I was given opioids for the pain, which I used very briefly, and then quit using — for their addictive properties are well-known, and I am afraid of addiction, and ardently seek to avoid it.

The "high" of marijuana, or hashish, or — more potently, though the grass of today is very potent — psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, mescaline, LSD, et all, are of a different order altogether. It is not just an altering of consciousness (for coffee can do that, or alcohol), but the *kind* of consciousness change is the issue. After all, the essential definition of sorcery — _Biblically_ defined — is giving one's consciousness entrance to the demonic realm, and not necessarily for occult reasons, but also for intensifying the sensation of pleasure, or for making the sensibilities (or artists, musicians, writers, etc) more acute. We clearly may have no awareness at all of the demonic in this. 

In _this_ definition the "high" specifically refers to a sorcerous expansion of consciousness into the demonic realm, rendering the subject vulnerable to demonic presence or influence. In the sixties we thought this "presence or influence" was — in most cases, but _not _all — a sort of divine illumination. In actuality it was, as it turned out, a demonic counterfeit of illumination, of the Holy Spirit's presence and influence.

So I would say, that any "high" from sorcerous agents — whatever the intent of the user — is sorcery, that is, exposing oneself to demonic influence. Can this be proven exegetically, from Scripture? I say it can, though others deny it, not knowing, experientially, what sorcery is, although it should be evident that, given enough understanding, we do not have to enter into sinful experience to know a thing sinful.

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## Pergamum (Apr 6, 2021)

Legit Medical uses of Marijuana that have been used medically and which I cannot find sinful:

1. It is very effective as an Anti-emetic (anti-nausea) for use during cancer chemotherapy.
2. Multiple sclerosis.
3. Glaucoma.
4. Analgesia (pain relief for cancer patients).

Medical literature abounds as to the efficacy of medical marijuana for these uses, as well as alleviating chronic pain and the insomnia associated with it. If the substance is cheap and effective and less addictive than other options such as opiods, then why not?

It is hard to target cannabis when there are so many other worse drugs out there... unless you are a cultural remnant of the 60s and your Christian beliefs are influenced by your revulsion of hippies/70's pot culture, etc. As more studies emerge I believe Christians will free themselves from the cultural associations of cannabis and treat it as other substances and evaluate it thusly instead of through the lens of the last generation's Fundamentalism.

The majority of Christians now favor the use of cannabis/marijuana for medical uses. God gave us dominion over all the earth and even the vilest poisons also have alternate medicinal uses if we prepare and dose these substances correctly.

Lots of Christians use Ambien, and yet this causes hallucinogenic effects more than medical marijuana. Where is the anti-Ambien lobby? Is it demonic also? The classic psychedelics include LSD, mescaline, and psilocybin. Marijuana is never listed among this group. Several non-hallucinogenic meds also can cause hallucinations for some people and under the right conditions, but are similarly not listed as hallucinogens. If your argument is that hallucinogens are inherently demonic, then we must scrap all meds that have any history of side-effects of hallucinations, because even a little bit of demonic contact is no good. But for this we must argue that, 1. hallucinations necessarily mean an entrance into contact with the demonic, 2. all hallucinations then, even from malarial fever, must now be linked to the demonic, and 3. any med that ever causes these side-effects is demonic. Sure, I support cautions with regards to classic hallucinogens such as LSD and DMT. But to call Ambien use demonic because some people hallucinate while on Ambien is a fringe argument. And it happens even less with cannabis gummies.

People who suffer from chronic and severe pain and insomnia associated with it often have few non-addictive choices. Cannabis is a better choice than Ambien or Opiods or Xanax. I support pain relief for those who suffer most and would not favor denying this option to the afflicted. It is mercy and love to provide the best pain relief options for patients.

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## Romans830 (Apr 6, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Legit Medical uses of Marijuana that have been used medically and which I cannot find sinful:
> 
> 1. It is very effective as an Anti-emetic (anti-nausea) for use during cancer chemotherapy.
> 2. Multiple sclerosis.
> ...


Perg, I like your answers. I hate pain and will take whatever I need to in order to stop it. All due respect to Pastor JB, but like I said earlier, the devil is always around the corner and will use anything to attack Christians. It's one thing to take drugs in order to try and cast spells, engage in withcraft, sorcery, try to connect with the dead and demons or take it solely for entertainment purpose. However, it's another thing to take a drug that has been medically approved, legalized, and given in a controlled way in order to cope with pain and so on.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 6, 2021)

Perg: "Legit Medical uses of Marijuana that have been used medically and which I cannot find sinful:"

This is when on a scale *Utility* is balanced against *Righteousness* — where the weight of one or the other comes from the heart of the weigher.

I do not doubt the effectiveness of the four classes Perg lists. And its legitimacy in worldly minds.

Then there are your statements about hallucinogens, such as, "If your argument is that hallucinogens are inherently demonic, then we must scrap all meds that have any history of side-effects of hallucinations..." I do realize that early on the drugs in question were called _hallucinogenics _or_ psychotomimetics_ (mimicking psychosis), but as the use widened the name was changed by Humphrey Osmond to _psychedelics_. Hallucinations are certainly *not* a necessary indicator of the demonic! 

Perg, you say, "The classic psychedelics include LSD, mescaline, and psilocybin. Marijuana is never listed among this group." Perhaps you're too young to remember! It was _always_ listed as in this class! Just not as potent, though nowadays it is extremely potent.

These drugs just mentioned as the psychedelics (mind expanders), are also euphemistically called entheogens (God manifesting within). It is necessary to ground this matter in an understanding of Biblical terms. In scripture they are referred to as sorcery, _pharmakeia_ (φαρμακεία), and its cognates are found five times in the New Testament, and more in the Greek Old Testament. In Revelation it means “_drugs that induce magic spells_” (Simon J. Kistemaker, _New Testament Commentary: Revelation_, p. 302); it belongs to “a magical tradition of herbs gathered and prepared for spells, and also for *encouraging the presence of spirits* at magical ceremonies” [emphasis added] (_The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology_, Vol 2, p. 558); and from _The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament_, by Spiros Zodhiates, we have: “*Pharmakeia* means the occult, sorcery, witchcraft, illicit pharmaceuticals, trance, magical incantation with drugs” (pp. 1437, 1438).

Besides the testimony of the commentators and Greek scholars who exegete the Scripture, showing that these drugs encourage the presence of spirits in trance states and induce magic spells—that is, awareness in the spirit realm, and of the powers therein—pagan spiritualists and shamans (occult practitioners) also know well what these drugs do. For example, among the Hindus in India, Nepal, Sikkim, and Tibet, the ability to send users of marijuana and hashish into the realm of spirits is well known. In Benares, the main Indian city of Shiva worship, cannabis is such an important part of the religion it is sold in government-run shops. Marijuana helps its users make contact with the spirit entities—demons—of its pagan religion. It also has a long history of use in ancient China, Japan, Iran, ancient Europe, and in Africa—mostly for shamanistic purposes—that is, for facilitating communion with spirits or the heightened spiritual states these spirits can produce.

I have to leave this discussion for a little while to attend other matters, but when I return (likely tomorrow) I'll comment on the aspect of Utility mentioned above, and the very real issue of pain management, and other medicinal uses, some indeed legitimate—but only when the THC does not enter into the bloodstream and trigger its sorcerous properties in the human system.

An interesting consideration: were there no demonic realm, say in pre-Fall Eden, ingesting marijuana (were it found there) would not be at all sorcerous, for it is the entrance into that realm that makes it "sorcerous". But there is a demonic realm now.

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## Romans830 (Apr 7, 2021)

Interesting article: 









Is Cannabis a Psychedelic Drug?


Yes, and it may work via 5-HT2A as well as the cannabinoid receptors.




psychedelicreview.com


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## Boreal (Apr 7, 2021)

A


Elizabeth said:


> And here is the crux of the matter. We steep in the belief (esp in America) that life should be grand, painless and easy. And it isn't for anyone, for long. Medications are sometimes necessary, for sure. But also we need to see this world rightly, as a place of enemy territory, so to speak.
> 
> We'd be a lot less miserable if we expected difficulty, hardship and loss. We'd be a lot more grateful for the good, too.
> 
> Our minds have been so warped by our materialism (in all senses). Trying to make this place our 'continuing city' leads to all sorts manifestations of need and greed and consequent pain.


Amen

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 7, 2021)

I use the word *Utility* carefully, that is, to indicate the concept that if somethings works — regardless of its being moral or immoral — we are to utilize it. This is the doctrine of utilitarianism: that an action is right insofar as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number should be the guiding principle of conduct.

I do know that marijuana, and hash, as well as other psychedelics, have the property of enabling the sufferer to psychically detach from the sensation of physical pain, making it more bearable. Such drugs even have the ability, for some souls, to remove the fear of death from terminally ill patients — ostensibly by showing them that death is merely part of the mysterious design of a benign universe, and that it is actually well with their souls, such is the peace and glory they experience under the influence of these agents. Yet we who belong to the true God in Christ know that this is a deception and delusion — a counterfeit of the peace of God.

Even the lesser relief of relatively minor pain, or discomfort or affliction of various sorts, can be remarkable, and thought highly desirable. As I indicated in the report of the late NYS Supreme Court Justice, Gustin Reichbach (post #33), the apparent healing / pain-relieving properties of cannabis can be quite dramatic.

I counter-balanced Utility with the concept of Righteousness, which latter is that which is right in the sight of God, which we are able to know by means of His word properly exegeted and exposited in the linguistic and historical context meant by the writer of that Scripture.

I do know that this is a huge thing! Pain may be excruciating, and utterly debilitating. I tread carefully here, as I do not know what may lie in store for me in my own life. I have a friend, thought a true follower of Christ, who, after becoming afflicted with M.S. (Multiple sclerosis) began to smoke grass with a legal prescription for relief of the MS's afflictions. It apparently worked to some significant degree. But this person's faith — and testimony of Christ — has seemed to radically diminish. I know this is anecdotal, and I am out of personal touch with the person, so I am not up to speed on their state, save that they do not publicly talk of Christ or God anymore, to my knowledge. Previously they were fervent to uphold His name.

We had a woman on this board who died of cancer in Feb of 2019, by name of Anne / CedarBay, who contacted me to talk of her reluctance to use medical marijuana for pain relief due to bad experiences with the drug when she was a younger woman, and she opted not to avail herself of it for her present pain — by her own choice. Her dying was painful, and she used other drugs, I gather morphine and/or opioids, to help her. Her primary concern was fidelity to Christ, and to her family gathered around her.

When it comes to cannabis use to relieve pain or affliction in a younger person *not* in a terminal condition, it is a different story. I cannot but tread softly in the presence of the pain of others. But as a minister of Christ (now retired, but still active in the care of souls) my first and foremost responsibility is to faithfully uphold His word of life in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation (Phil 2:15,16).

The bottom line, when all is said and done, is something Perg said in post #43: "Medicine is to be judged by its effects upon the patient." We are not _only_ to look on palliative effects (relief of pain), but holistically — the whole person, which includes the soul at present, and the eternal realm to which they will go when the life is over. Given that sorcery — enchantment through the use of drugs — can seal a person *against *receiving Christ through the strong delusion that may attend their use of cannabis, such means are strongly contraindicated! To bring a soul into the presence and influence of the demonic realm — be they young or old — would be to me, a great sin.

The _ultimate_ message of the sorcerous drugs, grass included, to our generation is that *truth resides within man and not outside; and whatever deity *_—_ *whatever God *_—_* is to be known likewise resides in man and not in some external “God”*. This is the legacy of these drugs. This is the experience many users of them come to know: an experience of benign power and peace, indicating that they are okay without the Christian God.

The underlying basis for disbelief in what I am talking of may simply be a disbelief in demonic power and witchcraft in our present time, the testimony of Scripture notwithstanding.

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## Romans830 (Apr 7, 2021)

Pastor Steve,

"The underlying basis for disbelief in what I am talking of may simply be a disbelief in demonic power and witchcraft in our present time, the testimony of Scripture notwithstanding."

I have noticed this about many Christians that I have spoken to. They are quick to tell you that the devil is attacking you, but when I tell them about paranormal activity, demonic attacks and influence, apparitions, dreams, visions that I have dealt with, I get laughed at. THC or any other conscious altering drug(which apparently only happens in high doses) is not the only way that the devil and demons can attempt to infiltrate or penetrate a person's mind/body/spirit.

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." ST. Paul


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## AThornquist (Apr 8, 2021)

Does the Bible ever refer to someone _accidentally _committing sorcery? From what I see in Scripture, sorcery is a deliberate spiritual experience, and drugs may be used to help facilitate or enhance that experience. Sorcerers _intend _to interact with the demonic realm and, in my opinion, likely use drugs to try to enhance their perceptions of the unseen spiritual reality. It is as though they are trying to make their demonic faith become sight, even if their drug-induced trip is a hallucination. I do not doubt that demons seize the opportunity to influence their willing victims, and the practice is sure proof of the sorcerer's sin-entrenched, God-hating heart. 

With that said, I think "sorcery" is entirely different than someone using THC to ameliorate suffering. Yes, someone may use marijuana _sorcerously_, but that does not mean marijuana is inherently _sorcerous. _As previous posters have "hashed out", marijuana or a derivative may be intentionally and carefully used for medicinal purposes that, to my reading, are _completely unlike_ the "sorcery" and "witchcraft" discussed in Scripture. Consequently, to say any and all medicinal uses of marijuana are unrighteous and sorcerous is, most importantly, a claim beyond the scope of God's Word. It may be well-intended, but it binds peoples' consciences, produces unnecessary guilt or shame, and may drive people to more dangerous drugs (e.g., opioids) to manage their ailments. Framing this issue in terms of "utility" versus "righteousness" only adds insult to injury, as it were.

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## Pergamum (Apr 8, 2021)

It is a strange case to make that one inanimate object is ok as a med, but another inanimate object is inherently sinful to use as a med, even when it is more effective. I don't buy it. We tame nature for our own use. We take dominion over the whole earth. Even poisons such as digitalis found in nature can be harnessed for heart medication. Cannabis is no different.

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## Pergamum (Apr 8, 2021)

"Help. I thought I was only taking a highly addictive opiod to sleep, but instead accidentally took cannabis and now the demons are talking to me!" I'll take things that will never happen for 100, Alex.


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## py3ak (Apr 8, 2021)

Our dear brother Mr. Rafalsky and I have gone around on this topic before. I think the _exegetical_ case that links "sorcery" in Scripture to a particular class of drugs is not proven. And after seeing how diligently Mr. Rafalsky has worked to make that case, I'm inclined to think that if he can't demonstrate it, probably no one can.

I also have significant reservations about the idea of substances with direct spiritual impacts. If THC is welcoming to demons, is the scent of burning sage also repulsive to them? But I will say this, for the other side of the debate. Although users of ayahuasca, psilocybin, DMT, and so forth sometimes have different interpretive frameworks for their experiences, many will say that the drugs are a gateway into the spirit world. It's perfectly possible that they are wrong. But even if so, their intent is bad. And even if they explain it poorly, their reports of experience should be taken seriously. If I'm going to be introduced to Pachamama after inhaling some substance, that probably is something I want to avoid. Nightmares about an exotic meats taco truck with golden fried armadillo served whole on the side are bad enough; I don't need more fodder for horror.

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## Romans830 (Apr 8, 2021)

AThornquist said:


> Does the Bible ever refer to someone _accidentally _committing sorcery? From what I see in Scripture, sorcery is a deliberate spiritual experience, and drugs may be used to help facilitate or enhance that experience. Sorcerers _intend _to interact with the demonic realm and, in my opinion, likely use drugs to try to enhance their perceptions of the unseen spiritual reality. It is as though they are trying to make their demonic faith become sight, even if their drug-induced trip is a hallucination. I do not doubt that demons seize the opportunity to influence their willing victims, and the practice is sure proof of the sorcerer's sin-entrenched, God-hating heart.
> 
> With that said, I think "sorcery" is entirely different than someone using THC to ameliorate suffering. Yes, someone may use marijuana _sorcerously_, but that does not mean marijuana is inherently _sorcerous. _As previous posters have "hashed out", marijuana or a derivative may be intentionally and carefully used for medicinal purposes that, to my reading, are _completely unlike_ the "sorcery" and "witchcraft" discussed in Scripture. Consequently, to say any and all medicinal uses of marijuana are unrighteous and sorcerous is, most importantly, a claim beyond the scope of God's Word. It may be well-intended, but it binds peoples' consciences, produces unnecessary guilt or shame, and may drive people to more dangerous drugs (e.g., opioids) to manage their ailments. Framing this issue in terms of "utility" versus "righteousness" only adds insult to injury, as it were.


Andrew, very well said. I'm sure I will refer to your reply if ever needed All due respect to Pastor Steve, but my contention is that Paul's list contains more than a condemnation of sorcery. Not that Pastor Steve is wrong, but to be fair the whole list of sins mentioned by Paul need also to be discussed. To engage in any of those behaviors is also to give a place to the devil and demons.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; *Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings*, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." St. Paul


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 8, 2021)

One great flaw — a fatal one? — in the view of opponents to the idea of sorcery involving a particular class of drugs is that no one can positively identity what the sin of sorcery is in Revelation 21:8 and Rev 22:15; likewise in Rev 9:21. A sin warranting eternal punishment if unrepented of — in the class of cowardice, faithlessness, murderers, sexually immoral, idolators, and liars — that cannot be clearly known? And the reason it cannot be is because there are some who simply won't believe the reality the word sorcery depicts. My gracious brother Ruben says "the _exegetical_ case that links 'sorcery' in Scripture to a particular class of drugs is not proven" to him, that is, it does satisfy his disbelief. He also beings up "the idea of substances with direct spiritual impacts" — a worthy consideration. I have written of such in my book (_A Great And Terrible Love_) in the chapter, "The Fate of Babylon":

*Analysis of pharmakeia nature and action*. To preemptively address a possible objection: no, the _pharmakeia_ drugs do not contain demonic power. This would be the negative mirror-image of Rome’s claiming the wafer actually contains God’s grace, that having been infused in it by Him, and that it confers grace apart from any motion – faith or devotion – on the part of the recipient. Such, along with Francis Turretin, I would deny. Both views err. In Turretin’s words, “nothing corporeal can by its own power effect anything spiritual or act upon the soul” (_Elenctic Theology_, Vol 3, p 365), that is, evil _or_ good do not inhere in physical objects; even alcohol or tobacco are not evil in themselves – it is their misuse that results in damaging effects on the human body and soul. Or Turretin again, “the sacraments do not work grace physically and _ex opere operato_ [produce of themselves] as if they possessed a force implanted and inherent in them of conferring and effecting grace” (_Ibid._, p 363). The same _inability_ to contain and/or confer evil applies to the drugs.

So at this point please note that I do *not* assert that demonic power is in the substance of marijuana or LSD, etc. It is simply a plant – or, with respect to LSD, a synthetic mix of chemicals – derived from the created order of things. Their effect is upon the physical body, particularly the brain and neurological system.

Whence then, the sorcerous power of the drugs? Perhaps this may illustrate my view: I was wondering a while ago, reflecting on this topic, what if (indulging briefly in the “if – then fallacy”) there were no demonic realm, no demons, just God and His creation in a holy state; and if someone inhaled the smoke of marijuana, or ate psychedelic mushrooms or peyote buttons, and the affect from ingesting these substances was to make them very aware of their inner being and of the outer physical and spiritual worlds? If there were no demons, this would not – in that context – be sorcery, nor would those substances be categorized and prohibited as _pharmakeia_ agents. There would be no demonic influence at all. But this conjecture presupposes a blessed state greater than original innocence (for there was a devil lurking about the garden), rather the pristine holiness of the eternal state. Perhaps it can be seen where I am going with such thoughts.

Suffice it to say that the drugs act upon the brain and nervous system of humans in some way that they become open to spiritual phenomena, both within themselves – their own human spirits (the depths of their being) – and whatever spiritual is without, which in our world today includes other humans and demons. The demonic agency is not something inherent in the drugs, but is in the world (“the whole world lieth in wickedness” 1 John 5:19; cf. Eph 2:2), and the drugs open one to that. They don’t open one to God, because God has forbidden using those drugs, and using them incurs His displeasure. I would think that sins of this sort done unwittingly incur less [or no] guilt, though the damage to the human soul is not lessened thereby. And damage done to the human community – whether the world or the church – continues, as demonic influence pours in through contact with the consciousness, activities, and works of those partaking the forbidden and unclean thing at issue here.

The _pharmakeia_ agents are unusual – in comparison with other recreational drugs – in this regard: instead of infusing powerful energy (speed/amphetamines) or euphoria (cocaine) into the system, they disable the controlling mind and will of the user and render the consciousness exposed to its own energy and depths of being, _and_ to the presence of other beings in their vicinity, human or otherwise. It is this making the consciousness _naked_ and immeasurably more sensitive in its apprehension of what is, that is the distinctive of these sorcerous drugs. I do not wonder that some may be incredulous that such things might be. Who could imagine it, such a thing happening? I mean, we see reference to such in movies like _Matrix_, with the blue and red pills – the red pills actually truncated in their consciousness expansion by virtue of the reality-level of the movie – yet showing the concept of taking something that generates awareness. I don’t mean to buttress my argument by this reference, just to show a popular version of the concept.

Back to reality: there are drugs that act upon the brain and nervous system, infusing – as I noted above – energy or euphoria into the nervous system, whereas the unique properties of the _pharmakeia_ agents bring an element into their effect on the brain and nervous system and then on the soul that renders it _open_ rather than acted upon with infusion of power or euphoric sensation. One assesses _pharmakeia_ drugs by their properties, their effect on the human system.

This is getting into that mysterious interaction / interrelationship between the physical brain and the immaterial spirit or soul of man, and as this is hard to define or delineate, so it is hard to define or delineate the actual affect of the _pharmakeia_ drugs on the brain, and how this affects consciousness. Even scientists cannot measure immaterial substance such as the soul or spirit of man, or love between humans, and thus they could not – at least scientifically – explain such things as we are seeking to discern.​
[to be continued]


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 8, 2021)

[free digital copies of my book on my Google Drive: https://goo.gl/EQ9L9d ]

Andrew, you said, "Framing this issue in terms of 'utility' versus 'righteousness' only adds insult to injury, as it were." I can appreciate your dismay here. It is a grievous thing that a drastically harmful drug also contains a beneficial palliative effect. Perhaps, as noted in what I wrote just above, there is no guilt at all in one accidentally taking a sorcerous agent, yet there can be damage done — serious harm — nonetheless.

You say the opioids are more harmful than marijuana (although I have been helped by opioids in short-term use after operations). You may hold that opinion, but it does not negate the spiritual harm done by the exposure to the spirit world.

Disbelief in something — sorcery here — does not make it go away. It actually makes it worse, for the danger sign posted on it is removed, and souls fall into an abyss.

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## Romans830 (Apr 8, 2021)

py3ak said:


> Our dear brother Mr. Rafalsky and I have gone around on this topic before. I think the _exegetical_ case that links "sorcery" in Scripture to a particular class of drugs is not proven. And after seeing how diligently Mr. Rafalsky has worked to make that case, I'm inclined to think that if he can't demonstrate it, probably no one can.
> 
> I also have significant reservations about the idea of substances with direct spiritual impacts. If THC is welcoming to demons, is the scent of burning sage also repulsive to them? But I will say this, for the other side of the debate. Although users of ayahuasca, psilocybin, DMT, and so forth sometimes have different interpretive frameworks for their experiences, many will say that the drugs are a gateway into the spirit world. It's perfectly possible that they are wrong. But even if so, their intent is bad. And even if they explain it poorly, their reports of experience should be taken seriously. If I'm going to be introduced to Pachamama after inhaling some substance, that probably is something I want to avoid. Nightmares about an exotic meats taco truck with golden fried armadillo served whole on the side are bad enough; I don't need more fodder for horror.


py3ak,

How about the rest of Paul's list? Think it has spiritual impact? Witchcraft is linked to drugs no way around that. It's the intent and the heart that matter. Marijuana for fun and entertainment are bad and yes withcraft...ha.


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## Romans830 (Apr 8, 2021)

Medical marijuana - what does the Bible say?​








Medical marijuana - what does the Bible say? | GotQuestions.org


Is it wrong for a Christian who has chronic pain to use medical marijuana / hemp? Does the Bible really say one way or the other about using marijuana / smoking weed?



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What does the Bible say about sorcery?​








What does the Bible say about sorcery? | GotQuestions.org


What does the Bible say about sorcery? Why is sorcery so strongly condemned in the Bible?



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## py3ak (Apr 8, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> One great flaw — a fatal one? — in the view of opponents to the idea of sorcery involving a particular class of drugs is that no one can positively identity what the sin of sorcery is in Revelation 21:8 and Rev 22:15; likewise in Rev 9:21. A sin warranting eternal punishment if unrepented of — in the class of cowardice, faithlessness, murderers, sexually immoral, idolators, and liars — that cannot be clearly known? And the reason it cannot be is because there are some who simply won't believe the reality the word sorcery depicts. My gracious brother Ruben says "the _exegetical_ case that links 'sorcery' in Scripture to a particular class of drugs is not proven" to him, that is, it does satisfy his disbelief. He also beings up "the idea of substances with direct spiritual impacts" — a worthy consideration.



I'm not entirely sure that "satisfying my disbelief" is an accurate representation of my position. I appreciate the Turretin quote -- if I'm remembering the history correctly, I brought that one up to you some years ago.

I have never denied the reality of sorcery. I have read 1 Samuel and Acts, after all. Any attempt to pry into or control what has not been placed in our purview by supernatural or mystical means, whether effective or not, is ruled out. We can believe that judicial astrology is _wrong _(Jeremiah 10:1-2) without believing that judicial astrologers perform better than average at predicting the future. And I believe that all substance abuse, as indeed many other sins, put us in danger of and leave us vulnerable to more influence from unclean spirits. Judas was susceptible to diabolical influence because of greed and dishonesty, no drug use required. The expelled demon takes seven others and enters into the house that has been swept. What I remain unconvinced of is the idea that _certain_ drugs are _especially_ sorcerous in nature. I understand that the users of them will often make the same claim, and so in a sense I'm open to the idea; but I have four main reservations. 

The first is that I haven't seen it Biblically demonstrated, so even if it's true it doesn't mean that it's taught by Scripture.
The second is that I wonder if the experience of the users is the most reliable guide. Almost by definition, they are opening themselves to experiences which might be expected to be deceptive.
The third is what the implications are for _anti-demonic_ magical measures, if I may speak so. And here again, I'm not unwilling to learn that some things may be effective and still prohibited; it's an intriguing corollary that it might be helpful to think through.
And the fourth is that if it tends to _reduce_ sorcery to the use of a certain class of drugs only, this might leave out other things that are equally condemnable under that heading, as well as to rule out certain classes of substances from having any beneficial use.

Of course I recognize that if Mr. Rafalsky has not convinced me in the past 10 or 15 years, no more have I convinced him. I'm happy to leave things there.

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## Romans830 (Apr 8, 2021)

py3ak said:


> I'm not entirely sure that "satisfying my disbelief" is an accurate representation of my position. I appreciate the Turretin quote -- if I'm remembering the history correctly, I brought that one up to you some years ago.
> 
> I have never denied the reality of sorcery. I have read 1 Samuel and Acts, after all. Any attempt to pry into or control what has not been placed in our purview by supernatural or mystical means, whether effective or not, is ruled out. We can believe that judicial astrology is _wrong _(Jeremiah 10:1-2) without believing that judicial astrologers perform better than average at predicting the future. And I believe that all substance abuse, as indeed many other sins, put us in danger of and leave us vulnerable to more influence from unclean spirits. Judas was susceptible to diabolical influence because of greed and dishonesty, no drug use required. The expelled demon takes seven others and enters into the house that has been swept. What I remain unconvinced of is the idea that _certain_ drugs are _especially_ sorcerous in nature. I understand that the users of them will often make the same claim, and so in a sense I'm open to the idea; but I have four main reservations.
> 
> ...


I guess it also depends on which chemical receptors a drug binds to....ha


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 12, 2021)

Hello Ruben, your memory is right — I used Turretin some years ago while discussing with you the issue of whether or not there is an intrinsic evil in cannabis, confirming there is not.

Quite understandably, it appears there is no understanding of the nature of sorcery — Biblical _pharmakeia_ in the Greek NT — in those who have not used it. There is an actual disbelief that such a thing can even be. I am sympathetic to such a view, as in my early 20s, never having partaken of it, I myself could also have doubted it. I was able to make a distinction between fairy tales and what I knew _then_ as "reality". Fast-forward almost 60 years, with a wider range of experience, the reason I now persist in prosecuting this case, against opposition, is because of the danger of demonic presence entering the precincts of God's spiritual house, in the guise of a regenerated brother or sister.

The reason it was made a capital crime under Moses (Exod 22:18; Deut 18:9,10,11,12) was to protect the community of the godly from the spiritual influences prevalent among the nations and their various occultic practices, in Exodus 22:18 witchcraft in particular. It is true we don’t know — so the scholars tell us — exactly what witchcraft / sorcery entailed back then, although the LXX reading is _pharmakos_, which is related to drug use.

In the NT we are given to be privy to *exactly* what “witchcraft” or “sorcery” entails, as by God’s mercy and wisdom a good number of us have come out of such depths — seeing clearly the nature and horror of it — while many are yet trapped by strong delusion within it, and both classes do testify what is involved. As I have stated in the essay, _“The Fate of Babylon, A study in determining the identity and demise of Babylon in John’s Apocalypse”_,

Which brings me to the matter of witnesses, and legal testimony. In this matter of the _pharmakeia_ drugs there are three witnesses:

1) The testimony of Scripture: these drugs exist, are used in sorcerous activities, and are condemned by God on pain of death [in the OT, physical, in the NT spiritual].
2) The testimony of exegetes, linguists, and commentators: who define what sorcery and witchcraft are by indicating the use of drugs to enter demonic realms, and the practicing of their crafts there by said users.
3) The testimony of those who have experienced these peculiar drugs, and _they_ are of two classes: a) godly men and women who have been delivered from the use and effects of them; and b) ungodly men and women who continue in use of them and clearly tell of their properties, their affect within their beings, and their efficacy in entering the spirit world.

The quality of this legal testimony (Deut 19:15; Matt 18:16; 2 Cor 13:1; etc) ought to be sufficient for skeptics to _at least_ take notice, and ponder, weighing it.​
Evidently, however, for some it is not sufficient. To those, I would suggest that, if you are a Christian using marijuana in states or regions where it is legal, to observe the following as regards your state of mind: are you aware of voices, thoughts, images, feelings, and urges — purporting to be your own — that are violent, illicitly sexual, or otherwise ungodly, which you seem to have trouble controlling or effectively removing — as though they were equivalent to OCD? This is one sign of demonic interference in your mind and heart. There are other aspects, which I shall note below.

In Denver, CO, and Oakland, CA, they have legalized the psychedelic / sorcerous “magic (psilocybin) mushrooms”, while Oregon had legalized them for therapy. Many (including the prestigious NYTimes) advocate for both this and even LSD.

[Continued]


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 12, 2021)

Returning to the matter of "in the Lord's house":

Let me posit a possible situation in an area where grass is fully legal for mere recreation. What would one think of a pastor, say in states where grass is legal (or those states where it is medicinally legal for pain), who, having smoked before the service, ministers while high? Or where a number in the church are (legally) high in the service? Would you assert that, if they’ve done it in moderation (or for pain relief), this is fully in accord with the word of God? Does using a Biblically forbidden substance for pain relief exempt one from obedience to God’s word? Did God have a good reason for forbidding _pharmakeia_ drugs? (Note: this is _*not*_ forbidding standard analgesics, even medicinal opiates. Psychedelics — _pharmakeia_ substances — are a class unto themselves.)

Or if the assistant pastor — who teaches the teens Bible study — has pain from a sports injury, and smokes (even if with a prescription) beforehand, is that okay? Though surely there will be teenagers — as well as adults—who, knowing their pastors are smoking marijuana (under medical license) for pain relief, will say, “Well, if they can do it for pain — and are okay mentally, and also accepted by the church — why can’t I do it as well for pleasure? We can see it’s not harmful if used reasonably.”

Besides the corruption of morals of others, minors included, let me say what the _Scripture_ view of this would be. A pastor has smoked his grass (ostensibly for pain) and expanded his consciousness by opening himself to the spiritual realm — much as the Hindus do to contact their spirit entities — and he is now open to energies and influences or thoughts that come to him from he-knows-not-where. But they seem to be godly and in accord with the Bible, and he has a new depth of feeling for the subject he is speaking on, and sharp insight, and he powerfully feels what he believes to be the presence and love of God. Has this man increased his godliness and anointing through the drug? *Scripture* says he has taken a drug (_pharmakon_) . . . _known to induce magic spells_, and to _encourage the presence of spirits at magical ceremonies_. Well, one wouldn’t call a church service a “magical ceremony” someone might respond! Unfortunately, using a sorcerous drug of the _pharmakeia_-class _would_ turn that church service into a magic ceremony, replete with demonic agency operating through the minister intoxicated by it.
_______

It shall be — ultimately — the pastors / elders that will be the guardians, the watchmen on the walls, over the Lord's house, giving Christ to govern His people by the scepter of His word, rightly exposited. For it shall be given to them to "teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean" (Ezek 44:23).

I think I'll leave it at this, if nothing further is required of me.

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## Pergamum (Apr 12, 2021)

Sure. Let the pastor take Opiods or Fentanyl to be a better role model. As long as it is not a "sorcerous drug."

It is a hallmark of animism to believe that dead or inanimate objects possess spiritual power. Your view is basically animism.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 12, 2021)

Hello Perg,

I specifically address that idea ("inanimate objects possess spiritual power") in my post 57, denying and refuting such a thing. 

If a pastor is in such a state that he needs fentanyl or opioids for pain he ought not be in the pulpit. In my post-operation uses of codeine and opioids I was in no shape to minister. I am sorry you have suffered the pain and discomfort you have in your service on the mission field.

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## Susan777 (Apr 12, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> and he is now open to energies and influences or thoughts that come to him from he-knows-not-where. But they seem to be godly and in accord with the Bible, and he has a new depth of feeling for the subject he is speaking on, and sharp insight, and he powerfully feels what he believes to be the presence and love of God. Has this man increased his godliness and anointing through the drug?


Exactly. As a young adult I experienced this myself once through a particular drug, I felt that “oneness” which is a powerful demonic lie. It is very seductive and overwhelming in intensity. I have absolutely no doubt that what I experienced was demonic in origin although I thought I had passed into the universal godhood Of One-ism. I’ve no nostalgia for those hippy days. It was *not* a time of innocence. I lost several friends and saw so many more friends absolutely destroyed by the evil one.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 13, 2021)

Right, Susan — counterfeit spiritual experience is one of the trademark works of the demonic realm, whether it be of the pagan-mystic sort, or the "Christian", also through deception of various kinds. I'm glad the Saviour rescued you out of it. Another trademark area is simply intensifying pleasure, or other human faculties, which nonetheless are aspects of "recreational" sorcery — strange times we are in, to put it mildly.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 26, 2021)

Some new developments:

I recently was recommended a book to read, Alex Berenson’s, _Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence_ ( Free Press (January, 2019). On the one hand it is a thoroughly secular work, chock full of scientific studies from around the world — both statistical and psychiatric — and it considers the mental illness violence according to the psychiatric paradigm, and the violence referenced (in addition to the scientific reports) from police, governmental, and prison records as well. I thought Berenson’s book was excellent for a secular book — it’s dynamite in its depth and thoroughness! Immensely valuable for its research and information. It does remain that it has no spiritual orientation at all. Even so, it has alarmed me beyond what I previously had been before reading it, given the contemporary cultural impact it depicts.

Those folks — believers — _with_ spiritual discernment, can extrapolate the many reports from the book to their Christian understanding: hearing voices is not merely, that is, not only, a psychological phenomenon, but the voices, whisperings, and thoughts that are known as fiery darts in Scripture (Eph 6:16), as well as ungodly images, impulses/urges, and wicked “insights”. Christians can read between the lines and see the demonic forces and influences affecting these people.

Another aspect of Berenson’s work is the strong and repeated emphasis on the difference between the potency marijuana had in the previous century, the 20th, and the strength of what is produced and sold now. The grass is often 20 to 40 times stronger now than before, and the distilled derivative products, “wax”, “glass”, and “shatter”, _far_ more potent yet, almost pure THC.

So if the earlier — 60s through 80s — stuff was sufficient to expose us to the influence and presence of the demonic, then it is a no-brainer the modern marijuana has far greater danger. We regularly see men and women under its influence acting as though — in the book, and in the media — temporarily possessed by a devil when they “snap” and easily are moved to commit murder over trivial offences, or without any provocation at all.

It is as though we humans are being taken over — possessed — while under the intoxication of this extraordinarily powerful yet fully legal (in some states, as NY now is) *recreational sorcery*. And if that weren’t enough, just Sunday — the Lord’s Day — this article in the NY Times appeared:

There Is a Lot of [Psychedelic] Fungus Among Us - NYT








There Is a Lot of Fungus Among Us (Published 2021)


Coffee for immune support. Supplements for inflammation. And psychedelics promising relief from serious ailments. Mushrooms are everywhere, and investors are paying attention.




www.nytimes.com





“*There Is a Lot of Fungus Among Us*
Coffee for immune support. Supplements for inflammation. And psychedelics promising relief from serious ailments. Mushrooms are everywhere, and investors are paying attention.”​
The influential NY Times has been pushing for legalized mushrooms — and other psychedelics, including LSD — as therapeutic for years, which is how marijuana got its foot in the door: if it’s legitimate for therapy, that is, medicinal, thus good for you, then it is ultimately safe — so the reasoning goes.

Amid the tsunami of occult force and presence being poured into the collective consciousness through the “recreational sorcery” of the day, now we get word of an even more powerful _accelerant_ added to the mix (as noted above, already legal in some areas of the U.S.), and who knows what shall develop from this, save the following:

When the nations are gathered to war against the camp of the saints, upon the loosing of the devil (Rev 20:7,8,9) in the “strong delusion” of 2 Thess 2:9,10,11,12, it appears that all humanity not sealed and protected by the Holy Spirit shall be inhabited by the demonic power raging in the zeitgeist — the spirit of the age — filling the collective consciousness of humankind with a *frenzied fury* against the LORD and His anointed (His saints specifically targeted) -Psalm 2:1,2,3. In the midst of this murderous dynamic the Lord shall appear and rescue His people, which shall be the final Day of Vengeance.

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## rareeves72 (Apr 27, 2021)

My


Pergamum said:


> I used medical marijuana gummies to help me sleep despite severe chronic pain until I got my procedure. It was safer than opiods and less addictive and felt better than Benadryl, which essentially intoxicates you as well and makes you groggy until the next day. It was a great relief and my sleep was finally restorative. But the Church is imbalanced on this issue. They prefer synthetic addictive opiods which cause many deaths to a little THC or CBD oil which tends to sooth a person and mellows out their anxieties.
> 
> Good preaching might prioritize the national epidemic of obesity which causes many to have chronic pain because their frames can't handle all that fat, and then they get hooked on opiods due to the back pain caused by their gluttony. Surely this kills more and is a bigger sin than medical marijuana.


 My wife and I take CBD oil and yes, you are exactly right. It helps me tremendously with my medical PTSD. I work in a Surgical ICU and have witnessed a lot of death, pain, and suffering. So, it helps take me from an intense 8-9 to about a mellow 4-3.


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## Pergamum (Apr 27, 2021)

rareeves72 said:


> My
> 
> My wife and I take CBD oil and yes, you are exactly right. It helps me tremendously with my medical PTSD. I work in a Surgical ICU and have witnessed a lot of death, pain, and suffering. So, it helps take me from an intense 8-9 to about a mellow 4-3.


Do you think it opens a portal to the demonic?


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## rareeves72 (Apr 27, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Do you think it opens a portal to the demonic?


No sir. CBD has no euphoric altering effects. In fact, it helps me to think clearly. It is truly amazing. I do not drink, smoke, or use any thing, so to be able to have clarity and calmness in the storm of thoughts and worry (ptsd) is good. CBD is non addictive. CBD helps my son who has has cerebral palsy.


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## rareeves72 (Apr 27, 2021)

rareeves72 said:


> No sir. CBD has no euphoric altering effects. In fact, it helps me to think clearly. It is truly amazing. I do not drink, smoke, or use any thing, so to be able to have clarity and calmness in the storm of thoughts and worry (ptsd) is good. CBD is non addictive. CBD helps my son who has has cerebral palsy.


Also there is some CBD oil that has THC in it and that is the chemical that alters moods. The one we use is THC free.


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