# Godly courtship/arranged marriages?



## Reed

Ok, so I'm a bit ahead of myself here... but with four daughters, (7, 5, twins 3) I think about this issue a lot.

My wife and I are praying for the parents of the godly young men who will be suitors to our daughters in the future, Lord willing.

Does anyone have thoughts or ideas on how parents can help in finding godly young men when your daughters are old enough to begin courting?

We can't just send them off to college with the instructions of pursuing a "Mrs." degree....

:>
Reed


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## wsw201

I would say the best place to look is your Church.


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## kevin.carroll

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Ok, so I'm a bit ahead of myself here... but with four daughters, (7, 5, twins 3) I think about this issue a lot.
> 
> My wife and I are praying for the parents of the godly young men who will be suitors to our daughters in the future, Lord willing.
> 
> Does anyone have thoughts or ideas on how parents can help in finding godly young men when your daughters are old enough to begin courting?
> 
> We can't just send them off to college with the instructions of pursuing a "Mrs." degree....
> 
> :>
> Reed



You may have a difficult time bucking the cultural trend there. I know there are some groups that try to practice courtship in this country, but I have no idea how successful it is. I suspect it isn't.


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## kevin.carroll

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> I would say the best place to look is your Church.



I would  that as well. Say, I have four boys...maybe this is providence!


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## Mrs.SolaFide

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> 
> We can't just send them off to college with the instructions of pursuing a "Mrs." degree....



No, but you can begin teaching them NOW how to be keepers of the home, knowledgeable in the Word, and serve in mercy ministries - which, essentially, is an "MRS." degree  It is important for parents to raise godly wives who understand their role if they truly wish for them to marry godly husbands. 

I agree that the church is the best place for girls to find their husbands. Not to sound cliche, but God will arrange for the marriage at the time that best serves His purpose.


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## Myshkin

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> It is important for parents to raise godly wives who understand their role if they truly wish for them to marry godly husbands.




I think this is a great principle that we tend to forget. As we are looking for the right person, we shouldn't forget that we are also called to be the right person first and foremost. This would have saved me alot of heartache if I learned it earlier in life.


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## Romans922

I believe your duty as a parent as said before, is to raise daughters who follow wholly after Christ and to teach them their God-given roles.

I do not believe it to be your duty to find men for your daughters. The men as pursuers are to find your daughters, that is part of their leadership role.

Also consider those who were not raised in a Covenant home, as myself. I had to learn my responsibility and role from nothing but Scripture. I didn't start learning this until I was about in the middle of college (20yrs old). So do not pray for parents necessarily. Pray for the young men, that they realize their God-given role of leading and that they may pursue your daughters as Christ pursues the Church. 

[Edited on 4-19-2005 by Romans922]


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## Arch2k

I would recommend listening to "What's a Girl to Do?" by Douglas W. Phillips

It can be found HERE


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## Augusta

It would be cool if those e-harmony people had in their questionnaire a detailed theological section. That way it could spit out eligible young men who were a personality match as well as a theological match. Then you pick one and write back and forth until you decide if they are worth meeting. I have three daughters so I have thought about this a little myself. My oldest is almost 11 so it is coming up way to fast. She is about to enter puberty.




They are all really close together 10, 9, 7 so it is going to be a bing bang boom.



There are a few boys at our church. One is already madly in love with my oldest but I think he is 2 years younger than her. Maybe we could have a meet reformed singles topic here in the forum?


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## kevin.carroll

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> It would be cool if those e-harmony people had in their questionnaire a detailed theological section. That way it could spit out eligible young men who were a personality match as well as a theological match. Then you pick one and write back and forth until you decide if they are worth meeting. I have three daughters so I have thought about this a little myself. My oldest is almost 11 so it is coming up way to fast. She is about to enter puberty.
> 
> 
> 
> They are all really close together 10, 9, 7 so it is going to be a bing bang boom.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a few boys at our church. One is already madly in love with my oldest but I think he is 2 years younger than her. Maybe we could have a meet reformed singles topic here in the forum?



My wife and I once talked about doing the e-harmony personality test to see if it would match us together. In the end we were afraid that it might not! 

I feel your pain. I have 4 boys 11/9/7/5. The olders is definitely showing tell tale signs of entering puberty and I worry (sinfully, I admit) at the new world of depravity about to open up to him.


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## LadyFlynt

I agree with Jeff...the "What's a Girl to DO?" CD is excellent!!! 

Again, I have to disagree with Kev.Carroll in bucking cultural trend. IF you truely have your daughters' hearts and are raising them with the understanding that "dating" and "boyfriends" are unacceptable...replacing that with "marriage" and "husbands"...then you are starting on the right foot. MANY homeschooling families do this (as well as mennonites-who RARELY homeschool their children). And it has worked! I've even known families secluded from everyone with none around who believed like them and yet, God sent them husbands for their daughters.

1) start praying for their husbands NOW!
2) listen to the Phillips CD
3) Talk with your daughters about being wives and discuss the way the world does things vs. the way you as a Christian household do things (ie dating/courtship/etc) (for those on the board that take offense at equating dating with "the way the world does things", sorry it's true and it's one way the church has become like the world rather than keeping to that which is good)
4) And yes, keep an eye on those young men in the church. One of them MIGHT one day be someone to consider. (My oldest boy has been watched by a another family as a consideration for their daughter in the future...he was 3 when this started...he's now 8 and a half)


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## LarryCook

"I Isaac, Take Thee Rebekah" (Part 1 of 2)

"I Isaac, Take Thee Rebekah" (Part 2 of 2)

I recommend the above links in which Ravi Z. looks at the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah. He also discusses his and his brother's experience in finding a wife and also his marriage.

You can listen online or download them for free. I believe the hour invested is well worth it.

Larry


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## Augusta

Is he mormon??


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## LarryCook

Traci,

For the sake not redirecting the subject of this thread, I'll just give the short answer which is "no, he's not a Mormon". Ravi is an evangelical Christian and apologist who did give a talk recently at the Mormon Tabernacle. The link below is Ravi's response to criticism that he received for speaking there.

my warmest regards in Christ,
Larry

Letter from Ravi regarding the Mormon Tabernacle event


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## LadyFlynt

Ravi is DEFINATELY NOT a mormon...he goes to colleges and other places to speak though. He is one of the most logical thinkers of our time.


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## Augusta

Thank you, that helps. Just followed the link and it was a mormon page.


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## Reed

Yeah, I like Ravi Zecharias -- he's kind of like CS Lewis but is also kind of reformed too...

I like the example of Isaac and Rebekah. Gen 24

R


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> I would recommend listening to "What's a Girl to Do?" by Douglas W. Phillips
> 
> It can be found HERE



I second that.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Here are some Puritan quotes on courtship.

Also, I highly recommend Daniel Dafoe's _Religious Courtship_. See this thread.


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## cultureshock

*courtship*



> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Ok, so I'm a bit ahead of myself here... but with four daughters, (7, 5, twins 3) I think about this issue a lot.
> 
> My wife and I are praying for the parents of the godly young men who will be suitors to our daughters in the future, Lord willing.
> 
> Does anyone have thoughts or ideas on how parents can help in finding godly young men when your daughters are old enough to begin courting?
> 
> We can't just send them off to college with the instructions of pursuing a "Mrs." degree....
> 
> :>
> Reed



It most definitely is not too early to begin discussing this with your daughters. In fact, if you plan for them to find husbands through courtship, please make sure that they understand this, and are voluntarily subject, long before a guy comes along. Develop the principles as a lifestyle. It is no good to pull the "courtship" card out of your hat after your daughter has already been smitten with feelings towards a young man, like when she's 16 or something like that. Such behavior only causes frustration. Be consistent. I write from some personal experience. This is part of obeying the command in Ephesians 6:4.

Brian


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Ravi is DEFINATELY NOT a mormon...he goes to colleges and other places to speak though. He is one of the most logical thinkers of our time.



Logical is as logical does. I would say that he is one of the most articulate.......


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## LadyFlynt

Articulate....THAT"S the word!


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## LawrenceU

As for a man 'hunting' a wife as a part of male leadership: where is Biblical precedent for that? In Scripture we see in Godly families the parents doing the 'hunting'. The only single fellow out hunting I can recall is Samson. His marriages ended up like over 50% of 'Christian marriages' today. Sort of make one give pause to think, eh?


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## Romans922

Or maybe you could view at as pursuing. As Christ pursued(s) the Church so we as MALES (husbands) should pursue our wives.


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## LawrenceU

Ah, but Christ pursues only those whom the Father has given. (John 6:37)


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## pastorway

I want to highlight a quote from MissSolaFide from earlier in this discussion:



> God will arrange for the marriage at the time that best serves His purpose.



That is exactly correct. We must teach our kids to be holy and wholly devoted to Jesus Christ. Teach them the Biblical roles for men and women. Model these roles in the home. And teach them to WAIT on God, seeking Him for what they need, want, and desire in life.

Now for a word of warning about this topic. In my home church when I was in college there was a group of families advocating courtship. But it was not Biblical! They spoke out against dating, which was good, but then they started trying to arrange marriages. Problem was that families with girls in the church would pick out the boy they thought was to be their daughter's future husband and they would investigate him and his family to learn his likes and dislikes, etc. Then from early in their teens even (12, 13, 14 years old) they would TELL THEIR daughter who they were going to marry and insist that this was God's will for them. Then they would use what they learned in their little investigations and teach their daughters and train them specifically to be this one boys future wife. He likes this food, these activities, etc, so you must learn to cook these dishes and participate in these activities, etc.

It was sad really.

All of this was exposed by the way when I announced my engagement to my church (my future wife was not from my church) and a family in the church with a daughter who was 6 years younger than I had picked ME for their daghter. I had no idea as they never talked to me or my family about it! 

They contacted the pastor and others in the church to try to bring charges against me for discipline since I was obviously disregarding God's will as revealed to them for who I would marry! When the leaders in the church refused to hear them, they began writing letters to me and my family directly making all sorts of claims......it was ridiculous. And it was sad. I knew their daughter. I had taught her in a youth Bible study for a few years. And when I learned all that she had learned about me in preparation to be my wife I was heart broken and felt like my privacy had been invaded - and I was angry at her parents stupidity. She had been told that it was God's will for her to marry me and when I married another woman I was sinning and leaving her without a husband for life!!!!!!

I have no idea if she ever did marry anyone else. We moved for a pastorate about a year after this episode and never heard about it again. 

And I share this not to knock teaching principles of courtship. I post it to be clear that parents should be very careful in how they approach the subject and in what they teach their kids about who they will marry. Teach courtship Biblically!!

Above all, teach them to be good disciples of Jesus Christ, fulfilling the role He has for them as a man or woman (to be single or married!!), and teach them to wait on God - He will indeed arrange their marriage as He sees fit!!!

Phillip


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## Romans922

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Ah, but Christ pursues only those whom the Father has given. (John 6:37)



That is beside the whole point. Husbands are to pursue their wives as Christ pursued the Church. That is ALL husbands are to pursue the wives, like Christ pursued the Church. 

Also, when quoting John 6:37, you open up a lot of stuff, for example: the gospel, Christ makes it possible to have to gospel proclaimed to a lot of people (i.e. the husband pursuing women), but not all 'hear' it, but the Church does hear it (Your wife will hear it and your pursuit will end in a 'won' heart). 

[Edited on 5-3-2005 by Romans922]


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## noonemayboast

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide
> 
> God will arrange for the marriage at the time that best serves His purpose. _


_



There is another, very similar topic going on in the Pilgrim's Progress. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9444

As I wrote in that thread, I think there are plenty of Scriptures that tell us we shouldn't "hunt" to be married. Anyway, I already wrote some stuff in that other thread.

Aaron_


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## satz

> I want to highlight a quote from MissSolaFide from earlier in this discussion:
> 
> Quote:
> God will arrange for the marriage at the time that best serves His purpose.
> 
> 
> That is exactly correct.



While i would agree with the above, doesn't God ordain everything to happen at the times he sees fit?

I don't see how the above statement means that we should not be taking active steps to look for a spouse if we are considering marriage?

Just seeking to understand...


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## reformed_farmers_wife

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Ah, but Christ pursues only those whom the Father has given. (John 6:37)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is beside the whole point. Husbands are to pursue their wives as Christ pursued the Church. That is ALL husbands are to pursue the wives, like Christ pursued the Church.
Click to expand...


Andrew,

How is this beside the point? Do you think that a man should be pursuing every girl he finds attractive because she MAY be his future wife? I think that you should be absolutely sure the girl your pursuing is God's perfect mate for you! 

I agree with those who said that it isn't our responsibility to go searching for our children's future husband or wife. God brought my husband to me when it was His perfect time. Believe me, I had gone looking, at a Christian camp I worked for 4 summer after high school, at my own home church, etc. But God choose to bring my husband to me from across the state almost into my back yard! God is in control and He knows what He is doing!


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## RamistThomist

I agree with Phillip. I have seen train wrecks in both dating and courtship (fortunately, not in my own life). I think courtship is designed to keep down the emotional scars that come with dating, but it is not infallible. Thanks, Phillip, for posting that. ALthough I consider courtship to be the most biblical, it is good to point out horror stories from every side.


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## Mrs.SolaFide

> _Originally posted by satz_
> 
> 
> 
> I want to highlight a quote from MissSolaFide from earlier in this discussion:
> 
> Quote:
> God will arrange for the marriage at the time that best serves His purpose.
> 
> 
> That is exactly correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While i would agree with the above, doesn't God ordain everything to happen at the times he sees fit?
> 
> I don't see how the above statement means that we should not be taking active steps to look for a spouse if we are considering marriage?
> 
> Just seeking to understand...
Click to expand...


Mark,

Yes, God foreordains everything to happen at the time he sees fit - that was precisely my point. My implication was not that single people should sit idly by and wait for the perfect spouse to walk through their door - more, it was to say that if we are wholly consumed with living righteously in a way that is pleasing and glorifying to God, then he will arrange for the circumstances by which singles will meet their mates (Isaac & Rebekah). In the same way that salvation is out of our control & yet we try to "get in" by works, so is God's Providence out of our control & yet we try to hasten the end (marriage) by unnecessary & unbiblical means (online dating services, godless dating relationships, etc.). I agree that there are appropriate actions to be taken by singles who wish to be joined in the covenant of marriage - but I don't think that casually dating every "prospect" that comes along is one of them. I know that's not what you are suggesting; I'm just trying to clarify my opinion


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## Romans922

> _Originally posted by reformed_farmers_wife_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Ah, but Christ pursues only those whom the Father has given. (John 6:37)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is beside the whole point. Husbands are to pursue their wives as Christ pursued the Church. That is ALL husbands are to pursue the wives, like Christ pursued the Church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Andrew,
> 
> How is this beside the point? Do you think that a man should be pursuing every girl he finds attractive because she MAY be his future wife? I think that you should be absolutely sure the girl your pursuing is God's perfect mate for you!
> 
> I agree with those who said that it isn't our responsibility to go searching for our children's future husband or wife. God brought my husband to me when it was His perfect time. Believe me, I had gone looking, at a Christian camp I worked for 4 summer after high school, at my own home church, etc. But God choose to bring my husband to me from across the state almost into my back yard! God is in control and He knows what He is doing!
Click to expand...


How can you know if a girl is perfect for you unless you pursue her, to get to know her? I dont know about you but I am not all knowing, I would never want to ask someone to marry me if I never hung out with them for a while.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

The Courtship of Miles Standish


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> You may have a difficult time bucking the cultural trend there. I know there are some groups that try to practice courtship in this country, but I have no idea how successful it is. I suspect it isn't.



It is extremely successful at my church. 

However, I would agree that the successful pockets are probably few and far between. Nevertheless, I believe one family can stick to a courtship model, regardless of the culture. I have 3 daughters myself, so I've had to think about this too. 

Once my daughters are old enough, and a young man is interested in one of them, he will either respect my wishes regarding courtship, or he won't get to court my daughter!


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## Poimen

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> Once my daughters are old enough, and a young man is interested in one of them, he will either respect my wishes regarding courtship, or he won't get to court my daughter!



Puritan!


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## BrianBowman

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> You may have a difficult time bucking the cultural trend there. I know there are some groups that try to practice courtship in this country, but I have no idea how successful it is. I suspect it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is extremely successful at my church.
> 
> However, I would agree that the successful pockets are probably few and far between. Nevertheless, I believe one family can stick to a courtship model, regardless of the culture. I have 3 daughters myself, so I've had to think about this too.
> 
> Once my daughters are old enough, and a young man is interested in one of them, he will either respect my wishes regarding courtship, or he won't get to court my daughter!
Click to expand...


Joseph, to this I give a hearty three 's.

I'm convinced that family (and especially the Father) play the key Biblical role in preparing for and superintending courtship and marriage. I say this because I had virtually none of this kind of training or protection (... and we have already discussed the tragic results of this in past postings )

Because I respect the integrity of your walk before God, I am curious about the following scenario Joseph. Lets's say in the future, a young man wants to court one of your daughters and she is ammenable. He is not real mature in Christ nor is he from a good family situation with proper Christian training, yet otherwise he loves Christ, treats your daughter with utmost respect, and is willing to take time to grow before marrying her. Would you be willing to "take him under your wing", for say 2-3 years as to help him "grow up" and remediate the lack of maturity and wisdom that comes from not being reared up in a God-fearing Christian home?


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by BrianBowman_
> Because I respect the integrity of your walk before God, I am curious about the following scenario Joseph. Lets's say in the future, a young man wants to court one of your daughters and she is ammenable. He is not real mature in Christ nor is he from a good family situation with proper Christian training, yet otherwise he loves Christ, treats your daughter with utmost respect, and is willing to take time to grow before marrying her. Would you be willing to "take him under your wing", for say 2-3 years as to help him "grow up" and remediate the lack of maturity and wisdom that comes from not being reared up in a God-fearing Christian home?



Yes, I think I could be amenable to that scenario, especially if the young man had already started showing some initiative to cultivate a deeper walk with God, and to follow Scripture rather than bad old habits learned from home.

A lack of learning can be fixed.

Even a lack of maturity can be remedied.

But a proper attitude would have to be there to begin with. I would consider a young man who wants to follow Christ better, and also wants to get to know my daughter. But if he just wants to get closer to Christ merely as a means to get to my daughter, then I would Fed-Ex him to Antartica!


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## BrianBowman

Thanks Joesph,



> But a proper attitude would have to be there to begin with. I would consider a young man who wants to follow Christ better, and also wants to get to know my daughter. But if he just wants to get closer to Christ merely as a means to get to my daughter, then I would Fed-Ex him to Antartica!



What you have written here is really a good application of the 1st and 2nd commandments. 

Also, exhort him "man to man" and make sure that his real focus is on getting to know and follow Christ FIRST. Tell him that you are willing to mentor (and act as a "spiritual father") him for several months *before* any discussion toward courtship can take place. Make sure the young man understands that if he is truly saved, God peformed this miracle by Grace alone, but that taking up our cross daily to follow Jesus is a matter of disciplined character development embracing the whole of Scripture. This is the only acceptable life-style and world-view that will prepare him for marriage to your daughter!

[Edited on 9-19-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## Scott Bushey

Joe,
What will you do when they are 18, move out and start dating a non believer?

This is exactly what my daughter has done. They are about to move in together.


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## NaphtaliPress

We have these articles on dating and courship at our church website:
Keeping A Father's Commandment
Dating 3: Dating and Courtship
Dating 2: Dangers of Dating,
Dating 1: Finding a Life Partner,


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Joe,
> What will you do when they are 18, move out and start dating a non believer?
> 
> This is exactly what my daughter has done. They are about to move in together.




I'm not kidding . . . it broke my heart when I read that. Exactly the same thing just happened a few months ago to one family in our congregation in McKinney. Their beautiful 18 year old daughter moved out of her parents' house and in with her boyfriend. How horribly sad!

Obviously, once they turn 18, there is only so much you can do since they are "of legal age" according to the country we live in.

Nevertheless, there are at least some things that can still be done. I think my pastor has given excellent advice on this type of issue before, and if I were in that situation, I think I would follow these 3 steps:


1) Does she still go to church? If so, church discipline should be administered. The Matthew 18 principle definitely applies here. Hopefully the elders will back you on this one.

2) Cut off any and all monetary support. That includes any vehicle, cell phone, college education, gas, food, and even medical insurance. See if she _really_ wants to entirely cut off her support system. She probably thinks she can get the "best" of both worlds: money from her parents and sex from her boyfriend. Make it clear that she has to choose one or the other. (This step is probably the most difficult for parents, but it really has to be done in extreme cases like this one . . . as long as she thinks you'll be there to catch her financially "just in case", she will not be motivated to return home.)

3) No matter how angry you are, do not yell at her, and do not talk harshly or cruelly. After all, we all stray from God sometimes in one way or another, and while He does discipline us, He is never cruel. Be as kind to her as you expect God to be to you. You've heard the saying, "If the girl doesn't get love from her dad, then she will seek it elsewhere." I am not suggesting that you have not loved your daughter. I just realize that it is very easy to act very angrily towards any person when they act foolishly and hurt you. I myself have been guilty of this. We just need to remember that harsh words don't accomplish anything good. 

A lot of people never do #1, and then they flip-flop #2 and #3. It is too easy to be weak on discipline, but to lob tons of hurtful and angry words. Instead, it is better to be tough on discipline, but gracious with speech. 

My prayers are with you, Scott. I have 3 girls of my own, and I can hardly imagine anything more hurtful or frustrating happening. I pray to God that I never have to face the same situation.

May the Lord graciously bring your daughter back into the center of His prescriptive will! My prayers are with you!

Your brother in Christ,
Joseph




[Edited on 9-23-2005 by biblelighthouse]


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## Gregg

This topic has been very helpful...thanks for some good advice.


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