# An internal contradiction in purgatory arguments?



## RamistThomist (Oct 13, 2013)

I am working on this line of thought and I want to see if it holds water. According to the Baltimore Catechism #1381, Purgatory is the temporal punishment for venial sins, presumably after death. But if Christ dealt with the curse of sin(s) on the cross, then why is one being punished for a sin that he is no longer guilty of?


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## ZackF (Oct 13, 2013)

Cameronian said:


> I am working on this line of thought and I want to see if it holds water. According to the Baltimore Catechism #1381, Purgatory is the temporal punishment for venial sins, presumably after death. But if Christ dealt with the curse of sin(s) on the cross, then why is one being punished for a sin that he is no longer guilty of?



It is about making "satisfication" for sins even though they are forgiven. There is no righteousness imputed in RCism and so even though one is forgiven you still have to make things right with God. Purgatory really is, In my humble opinion, a doctrine necessary and fully consistent if you have no imputation and have to be "made righteous."


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## Andres (Oct 13, 2013)

The RCC intermingles the doctrines of justification and sanctification, so as Zack said, even though you are forgiven, you still have to work for it. My understanding of purgatory is that it's intended for those who didn't fully earn their "righteousness" during their time on earth. Just another RCC teaching that's not found anywhere in scripture.


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## One Little Nail (Oct 13, 2013)

When does the Imagined Purgatory begin, since at the 2nd Coming all will be called
from the Grave to give account which would end any sort of "refining" being carried out
on the Soul. Does this mean that after the Great/Last judgment that bad catholics will
be thrown in the fire with the wicked, should I even presume that it's the same fire? or 
is there two fire pits one for the wicked to be Eternally Tormented/Tortured & another
where bad R.C's & those who couldn't match up go, What sort of God do those catholics
believe in?


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## ZackF (Oct 13, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> When does the Imagined Purgatory begin, since at the 2nd Coming all will be called
> from the Grave to give account which would end any sort of "refining" being carried out
> on the Soul. Does this mean that after the Great/Last judgment that bad catholics will
> be thrown in the fire with the wicked, should I even presume that it's the same fire? or
> ...



Purgatory is not seen with the same timeline as this world or eternity. The doctrine isn't taught as a second chance or hell-light but a place to "purge" sins (venial and unsatisfied yet forgiven mortal) that have yet to be expiated.


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## ZackF (Oct 13, 2013)

Andres said:


> The RCC intermingles the doctrines of justification and sanctification, so as Zack said, even though you are forgiven, you still have to work for it. My understanding of purgatory is that it's intended for those who didn't fully earn their "righteousness" during their time on earth. Just another RCC teaching that's not found anywhere in scripture.



Two common references are 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 but the first doesn't apply with greater than cursory look at the verse. There are plenty here who could exegete the passage better than I. The Maccabees reference is used to imply the doctrine as "why else would you pray for the dead?" Even if Maccabees were Scripture I don't think purgatory is a necessary deduction from the passage. There are other verses used but don't show up until much later in Church history in support the doctrine. I think Augustine believed in a early-proto version of the doctrine because his doctrine of the Atonement wasn't fully developed. Augustine sought consistency. Without imputed righteousness no sane person believes we can be perfect? I've even asked people who have problems with the doctrine of imputation if they therefore believe in purgatory and I usually get a blank stare.


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## MichaelNZ (Oct 16, 2013)

Purgatory is based on the teaching of temporal punishment for sins for which the guilt has already been forgiven. This "temporal punishment" (which isn't actually anything specific but seems to me to be like a cosmic bank account) can be forgiven in this life by penance, good deeds and gaining indulgences. Here is a Roman Catholic article explaining indulgences and temporal punishment (and here's the article from the same site about purgatory).

A good resource which gives refutations for many Roman Catholic teachings is a book called_ A Manual of Romish Controversy _by Richard Paul Blakeney (here is the section on purgatory).


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## earl40 (Oct 16, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> When does the Imagined Purgatory begin, since at the 2nd Coming all will be called
> from the Grave to give account which would end any sort of "refining" being carried out
> on the Soul. Does this mean that after the Great/Last judgment that bad catholics will
> be thrown in the fire with the wicked, should I even presume that it's the same fire? or
> ...



A good point I have not heard of before.


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