# Dabney, Jackson, et tu



## J Andrew Deane (Jul 31, 2005)

Hello all,
Just wondering who has read up on Dabney and Stonewall Jackson.

As a recent resident of the Maryland/Virginia area, it's all fascinating.

Any advice on what to read/what one has gained in reading these folks' works would be appreciated.

Thanks.

JAD


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 31, 2005)

Robert Dabney is my favorite American theologian and Stonewall Jackson is my hero (my son is named for him). I have visited most the sites associated with Jackson during his life and career and live very near Manassas, Chancellorsville and Guinea Station, where he "crossed over the river." Lexington, where he and Robert E. Lee are buried, is, I think, one of the most beautiful and moving places on earth. Dabney is also buried just south of where I live. His _Discussions_ and Systematic Theology are wonderful and his biography of Stonewall Jackson is the best, in my opinion. _Jackson and the Preachers_ by John W. Schildt speaks to Jackson's relationship with Dabney as well as other great Southern Presbyterian ministers. The classic biography of Dabney is called _The Life and Letters of Robert Lewis Dabney_ by T.C. Johnson. _Gods and Generals_ is one of my favorite all-times movies, btw. Stephen Lang did a faithful portrayal of my hero, and I've met the actor in person, he's good folk. There are some helpful biographical and historical resources on Jackson, Dabney and others of their _caliber_ here. An interesting connection between the two men (besides the well-known fact that Dabney was Jackson's chief of staff and chronicler) is that Jackson's father-in-law was the first president of Davidson College in Davidson, NC. Dabney later gave an important lecture series at Davidson College and other locations shortly before he died. I grew up in part at Davidson where my father graduated and taught for some years.


[Edited on 7-31-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 31, 2005)

I love Dabney also. I have read most of his systematic. Still need to finish it. I have used it more than any other. Stonewall is a great man. I say is because he is seeing the Saviour Face to Face as we speak. 

I agree very much with Andrew.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 31, 2005)

You might also want to look at this article and others in the political forum.




Why The Civil War

The problems that led to the Civil War are the same problems today - big intrusive government. The reason why we don't face the specter of another Civil War is because today's Americans don't have yesteryear's spirit of liberty and constitutional respect and political statesmanship is in short supply.

Actually, the war of 1861 was not a civil war. A civil war is a conflict between two or more factions trying to take over a government. In 1861, Confederate President Jefferson Davis was no more interested in taking over Washington than George Washington was interested in taking over England in 1776. Like Washington, Davis was seeking independence. Therefore, the war of 1861 should be called "The War Between The States" or the "War for Southern Independence." The more bitter southerner might call it the "War of Northern Aggression."

History books have misled today's Americans to believe the war was fought to free slaves. Statements from the times suggests otherwise. In President Lincoln's first inaugural address, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so." During the war, in an 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune editor Horace Greeley, Lincoln said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery." A recent article by Baltimore's Loyola College Professor Thomas DiLorenzo titled "The Great Centralizer," in The Independent Review (Fall 1998), cites quotation after quotation of similar northern sentiment about slavery.

Lincoln's intentions, as well as that of many northern politicians, were summarized by Stephen Douglas during the presidential debates. Douglas accused Lincoln of wanting to "impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by the central government" which "place at defiance the intentions of the republic's founders." Douglas was right and Lincoln's vision for our nation has now been accomplished beyond anything he could have possibly dreamed.

A precursor for a War Between the States came in 1832 when South Carolina called a convention to nullify tariff acts of 1828 and 1832, referred to as the "Tariffs of Abominations." A compromise lowering the tariff was reached averting secession and possibly war. The North favored protective tariffs for their manufacturing industry. The South, who exported agricultural products to and imported manufactured goods from Europe, favored free trade and was hurt by the tariffs. Plus, a northern-dominated Congress enacted laws similar to Britain's Navigation Acts to protect northern shipping interests.

Shortly after Lincoln's election, Congress passed the highly protectionist Morrill tariffs. That's when the South seceded setting up a new government. Their constitution was nearly identical to the U.S. Constitution except that it outlawed protectionist tariffs, business handouts, and mandated a two-thirds majority vote for all spending measures. 

The only good coming from the War Between The States was the abolition of slavery. The great principle enunciated in the Declaration of Independence that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" was overturned by force of arms. By destroying the states' right to secession, Abraham Lincoln opened the door to the kind of unconstrained, despotic, arrogant government we have today, something the Framers of the Constitution could not have possibly imagined. 

States should again challenge Washington's unconstitutional acts through nullification. But you tell me where we can find leaders with the love, courage and respect for our Constitution like Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, or John C. Calhoun.

Walter E. Williams

c46-98

November 18, 1998


----------



## Puritanhead (Jul 31, 2005)

Vision Forum 

has republished books by R.L. Dabney including his biography of Stonewall Jackson... Plus there is _Christ in Camp_ which tells the tale of spirit-led revival in Confederate encampments during the war, plus 

[Edited on 7-31-2005 by Puritanhead]


----------



## crhoades (Jul 31, 2005)

Don't forget the beloved Henry Thornwell. Ditto to the Life and Letters of Dabney. Also check out Morton Smith's book on Southern Presbyterian Theology


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> http://www.visionforum.com/
> 
> has republished books by R.L. Dabney including _Christ in Camp_ which tells the tale of spirit-led revival in Confederate encampments during the war, plus his biography of Stonewall Jackson...



Christ in the Camp is done by J. William Jones.


----------



## LauridsenL (Jul 31, 2005)

"The problems that led to the Civil War are the same problems today - big intrusive government. "

Did the South's insistence on wicked slavery have no role? I live in a state and a city where people's blood was spilled by pro-slavery forces intent on forcing Kansas to come into the Union as a slave state. Which side was it that was in favor of "big intrusive government" in that case?

I have no doubt that the positive side of the South during the slavery period, and the sinfulness of the North, often is overlooked, . But it saddens me when Christians seem to downplay the sinfulness of slavery and the role it played in causing Southerners to want to leave the Union. It reminds me very much of the battle over integration, when too many people hid behind states rights to justify their sinful, racial hatred. I'm confident that doesn't apply to anyone here, but there's no doubt it applied to many.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> Don't forget the beloved Henry Thornwell.



The anniversary of his death is August 1. James Henley Thornwell, one of the greatest Southern American Presbyterian ministers, lived from December 9, 1812 to August 1, 1862. He sought to acknowledge the kingship of Jesus Christ in the Confederate Constitution. The classic biography of Thornwell is _The Life and Letters and James Henley Thornwell_ by B.M. Palmer, yet another Southern Presbyterian giant of the 19th century.


----------



## RamistThomist (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LauridsenL_
> "The problems that led to the Civil War are the same problems today - big intrusive government. "
> 
> Did the South's insistence on wicked slavery have no role? I live in a state and a city where people's blood was spilled by pro-slavery forces intent on forcing Kansas to come into the Union as a slave state. Which side was it that was in favor of "big intrusive government" in that case?



That argument can be turned on its head. Anti-slavery abolitionist John Brown was sponsored by Northern abolitionists to kill non-slave owning whites, including women and children, in cold blood.

Also, bear in mind that the North had no viable solution for ending slavery. Northern abolitionists were some of the most vicious racists at the time. We have to ask the question, "Was it necessary to slaughter 600,000 Americans and preserve the Union by violence, contrary to the wishes of the Founding Fathers?" 

[Edited on 8--1-05 by Draught Horse]


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Aug 1, 2005)

*Dabney book*

Naphtali Press reprinted one of the rarer Dabney books that had not been reprinted before. It has a great repro of an oil painting of Dabney on the cover (held at University of Texas at Austin). See Naphtali Press The book has Dabney's arguments against evolution theory.


----------



## Peter (Aug 1, 2005)

Review of Dr. John L. Girardeau's Instrumental Music in Public Worship by R.L. Dabney

http://www.piney.com/Dabney.html

"Why do not our Christian Ã¦sthetics feel equally authorized and bound to build altars in front of their pulpits, and to drag the struggling lambs up their nicely carpeted aisles, and have their throats cut there for the edification of the refined audience? "Oh, the sacrifices, being types and peculiar to the temple service, were necessarily abolished by the coming of the Antitype." Very good. So were the horns, cymbals, harps and organs only peculiar to the temple-service, a part of its types, and so necessarily abolished when the temple was removed."


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Aug 1, 2005)

And Dr. John L. Girardeau's Instrumental Music in Public Worship is here:
http://www.fpcr.org/FreeEbooks.htm


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 1, 2005)

Dabney specifically built the chapel on the campus of Hampden Sydney College to _not_ allow the placement of musical instruments such as organs and pianos inside. After his death, the doorways had to be enlarged to accommodate the placement of such instruments.


----------



## LauridsenL (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LauridsenL_
> ...



With all due respect, the fact that the North had its full share of sin does not turn my argument on its head. As I tried to make clear, I'm not arguing that the North was sinless, either during the Civil War or during the movement to repeal segregation. Boston, Chicago -- indeed, every northern city -- had plenty of racists. But my argument is with those who overly idealize the South, and downplay the sinfulness of slavery or those who tolerated and actively supported it, and pretend that the Civil War wasn't primarily a result of (indeed, almost certainly a judgment upon) slavery. If anyone idealizes the North and downplays the sins of notherners, then I'll be the first to agree with you that they're wrong as well.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 2, 2005)

Lee,

With all due respect, there is a lot you don't understand. I had to come this point of where I am the hard way. My first inkling that I had received bad teaching concerning the Civil War was when I read a book called 'Preachers with Power'. It is a Banner of Truth book. It is a biography of 4 Southern Pastors.

I understand your knee jerk reaction to what has been posted. I do not believe slavery was a good thing. I actually believe there was much sin involved on both sides. Lincoln was no emancipator by any means. Let me go back and explain why I understand your knee jerk reaction.

In 1981 I was stationed at NAS Oceana. I was training to be a fighter jet mechanic. I was quite rowdy and unsaved. One night my roommates and I were partying very hard when all of a sudden they asked me to become a member of the KKK. I refused and they turned on me. I had been partying with these guys for a few months. They thought I would go along with them. Anyways to make a long strung out story short I hated everything southern for about 5 or 6 years. As I started studying historical evidence and the motivations for the War between the States, I came to the conclusion that what I had been taught was incorrect. It was a struggle of political power that started the war. I agree racism is sin. It is a bad thing to not love someone based upon skin color. Not one of us here would argue against that. I would just encourage you to look a little deeper into the motives behind the war.
Racism is a major motivator in todays political arena just as it was back then. I believe Jesse Jackson and others use it in their own favor for gain today. Sure he does some good, but he is no reverend of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as his title would have you believe. Things just are not as they seem sometimes. 

Be Encouraged, No one here is a racist as far as I can tell. 

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

[Edited on 8-2-2005 by puritancovenanter]


----------



## rmwilliamsjr (Aug 22, 2005)

i'd like to read more about Dabney's hierarchical aristocratic notions that are aimed at the North's equalitariansim.
any reading recommendations?
i have http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/articles/theocon/part7.htm


----------

