# Shepherds never having been sheep



## kceaster (Sep 1, 2009)

In lieu of other discussions that have recently been discussed about education and theological training, I thought this might be worthy of discussion.

Is it a significant disadvantage for a minister to have never really been a lay-person?

The reason I ask is because I have known men at GPTS and other places who went to seminary not long after their conversion, and don't really have the experience of what it means to be a lay-person.

I mean no offense by the question. And I'm not implying anything. I'd just like to know if there have been experiences or struggles with this from any of you all.

Thanks in advance.

In Christ,

KC


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## OPC'n (Sep 1, 2009)

Aren't they sheep while going to seminary? Professors are normally hard on their pupils and demand more "submission" in leaning, obeying etc. Maybe they learn what we do just in a more intense manner. And don't they have to go to college for 4 years and then seminary for another 4 years or am I wrong?


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## N. Eshelman (Sep 1, 2009)

I think that it is a good question- Paul says something about being a novice, right? I am sure that has to do with your question. Of course, the presbyteries are the ones that are to be judging that as well. One may be a novice after 10 years due to immaturity- others may be out of that stage of their Christian life after 2 years. 

Good point though.


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## kceaster (Sep 1, 2009)

Madcow said:


> Aren't they sheep while going to seminary? Professors are normally hard on their pupils and demand more "submission" in leaning, obeying etc. Maybe they learn what we do just in a more intense manner. And don't they have to go to college for 4 years and then seminary for another 4 years or am I wrong?



It's not a question of whether they have time to be a sheep for at least a bit. But oftentimes in the course of seminary, they are sort of elevated above the laity in the duties they perform while learning. I guess to rephrase my question a bit:

Is there a signficant disadvantage for a minister to have never really been a lay-person? (I changed the OP.)

In Christ,

KC

-----Added 9/1/2009 at 01:30:00 EST-----



nleshelman said:


> I think that it is a good question- Paul says something about being a novice, right? I am sure that has to do with your question. Of course, the presbyteries are the ones that are to be judging that as well. One may be a novice after 10 years due to immaturity- others may be out of that stage of their Christian life after 2 years.
> 
> Good point though.



I agree. But I'm not necessarily pointing to the novice question. (Sorry, I rephrased or perfected the OP.) I just wondering if it's harder to lead the laity if one has never really been a lay-person.

In Christ,

KC


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## OPC'n (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't think so. See everyone serves the Body of Christ. It isn't a matter of one person having a higher station than another. Everyone has their own tasks or service to the Body of Christ. If they begin early what they will be doing for the rest of their lives, I can't see this as being a bad thing. It's not as though laity are on a lower level or a more humble level than pastors. Actually, pastors are called to be more of a humble servant than others.

-----Added 9/1/2009 at 01:33:00 EST-----

I"m not sure if I said that well. But what does the lay-person learn that a pastor hasn't/or should have learned too? Submission? He is to submit to the denomination and to Christ.


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## westminken (Sep 1, 2009)

This is a very important issue with seminary students. It took me three years before my session would recommend me to the presbytery as a candidate for the gospel ministry. I was in seminary during this whole time. Being a sheep in the flock helps you understand the needs, desires, and feelings of a congregation. Being a sheep helps you become a better shepherd. I didn't understand it at the time when my pastor told me I needed to be a sheep first but I am so thankful for the wise counsel he gave me at that time. Ultimately,for me at least, the experiences as a sheep will make a better shepherd in the future. 

I hope for the men being led into the gospel ministry, if and when their pastor tells them to be sheep they will heed the advice.


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## the particular baptist (Sep 1, 2009)

I think it makes a difference, humanly speaking. An 18 year old teenager graduates high-school, goes to bible college, then seminary, then steps into a pulpit. The end result is a preacher with less than desirable people skills and or deficient communication skills.

Elders have the primary responsibility of preaching the whole counsel of God and watching out for the souls under their care. Elders with no previous life experience have some major difficulties and hurdles doing this with sensitivity to the congregation when exercising authority in the posture of servants and examples. *Matthew 20:25-28 Ezekiel 34:4 Acts 6:5 1Peter 5:3*.


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## OPC'n (Sep 1, 2009)

PactumServa72 said:


> I think it makes a difference, humanly speaking. An 18 year old teenager graduates high-school, goes to bible college, then seminary, then steps into a pulpit. The end result is a preacher with less than desirable people skills and or deficient communication skills.
> 
> From a Baptist perspective elders have the primary responsibility of preaching the whole counsel of God and watching out for every soul under his care. Elders with no previous life experience have some major difficulties and hurdles doing this with sensitivity to the congregation when exercising authority in the posture of servants and examples. *Matthew 20:25-28 Ezekiel 34:4 Acts 6:5 1Peter 5:3*.



This might be a sweeping generalization of ppl. Some ppl have a tender heart towards the ppl of God and can see their needs and know how to meet them at a young age. I think Timothy in the Bible is a good example. Some ppl can be of the laity for a number of years and then become a pastor and still never have any idea of how to deal with God's ppl and have compassion. Doesn't seminary have a class which requires footwork (helping the community, actively seeking out those in need etc?). In the medical field, MD's are now required to take a class on learning good bedside manners.....now if only they could take a class on how to treat nurses better....


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## westminken (Sep 1, 2009)

Madcow said:


> PactumServa72 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it makes a difference, humanly speaking. An 18 year old teenager graduates high-school, goes to bible college, then seminary, then steps into a pulpit. The end result is a preacher with less than desirable people skills and or deficient communication skills.
> ...



Yes, in the PCA and the OPC, this class is called an internship. This is done in the local church. At WTS and other Reformed seminaries, there is a class called mentored ministry in which the students meet with a professor, usually a seasoned pastor/professor and discuss case studies or real life situations in the church and how best to handle these situations. So getting back to the question, students are given the tools but ultimately it is the Holy Spirit working in the lives of the students to show them how to love the people of God.


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## he beholds (Sep 1, 2009)

Say there were two godly men with similar personalities, seminary training, and prospective church bodies, who both wanted to be pastors. If the one had been a sheep for 25 years and the other has only been one for the last few years while in seminary, I could see the former having the advantage, simply because he would have presumably more biblical knowledge, as he had been learning all of those years. 

However, as far as being able to relate to people and lead a congregation, I don't see _much_ advantage given to the one who had grown up in a church. I imagine the task is pretty nearly equally as difficult for any pastor, though there is no question that growing up in the Covenant (say the first man did) would prepare men for godly living, which may not be a seminary-learnable skill. 

So I think the one who had been a Christian longer, and thus a sheep, would have some spiritual and practical benefits that come with time spent in fellowship with God and believers, but not necessarily be better-fit to lead than the other. 

Could a homeschooled-person be a school teacher and vice versa? I hope so, since I went to public school K-12 and was formally taught classroom teaching, yet I hope to homeschool. Would a person who had been through the ringer have an easier time at it? Probably, but not absolutely necessarily.


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## kceaster (Sep 1, 2009)

Madcow said:


> This might be a sweeping generalization of ppl. Some ppl have a tender heart towards the ppl of God and can see their needs and know how to meet them at a young age. I think Timothy in the Bible is a good example. Some ppl can be of the laity for a number of years and then become a pastor and still never have any idea of how to deal with God's ppl and have compassion. Doesn't seminary have a class which requires footwork (helping the community, actively seeking out those in need etc?). In the medical field, MD's are now required to take a class on learning good bedside manners.....now if only they could take a class on how to treat nurses better....



It's no doubt that experience can be relayed, but I'm not so sure it can be taught. We can be warned about certain pitfalls and we can probably even avoid them. But not every situation is the same. Where one piece of advice on how to deal with something may actually help us help others, an ill-timed word from a pastor can really crush the hearer. And if a rift ensues, the pastor's confidence will be shaken and even more damage is done.

And what comfort that the Spirit will lead us! But that is a two-edged sword, as well. We could deceive ourselves into thinking that the Spirit will cover up all our inexperience and give us aid in the moment. But that obviously isn't always the case.

In Christ,

KC


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## TeachingTulip (Sep 1, 2009)

kceaster said:


> In lieu of other discussions that have recently been discussed about education and theological training, I thought this might be worthy of discussion.
> 
> Is it a significant disadvantage for a minister to have never really been a lay-person?
> 
> ...



What does Scripture say? Do not the requirements for Elders answer this question? Do single young men meet the biblical requirements of Eldership; particularly TE?


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## JonathanHunt (Sep 1, 2009)

It has to be a disadvantage not to have had the time to observe a pastor in action, to be counselled, to be ministered to, and so forth.

Indeed, I have to wonder if the problem arises from a lack of training within churches _before_ seminary is considered. If a church commends a man to seminary, the church is saying something about the man. If the man has no experience of sitting under a ministry, and no experience or understanding of pastoral duties (through practice or observation) - if there is no _proving_ of the man first, I'm not sure how a church can send that man to seminary with a genuine commendation.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Sep 1, 2009)

One of the qualifications for elder is that they are not a new convert and I think this would fall under that. This is another reason that an internship should be highly stressed (if not mandatory) for aspiring Pastors.


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