# Oneness Pentecostalism Heresies



## William Price

Some of my brethren on here may or may not know, but I came out from Oneness Pentecostalism into the glorious truth of true Christianity in February of this year, though I had tried to go back for a short time. I wanted to start a thread to help people dealing with Oneness Pentecostals, whether they be friends, family, co-workers, etc.

One of the man problems with Oneness Pentecostalism is the hybrid heresies of Monarchism and Patripassianism which dominate their view of the Godhead. Oneness believes without question, that God is one, but refuses to acknowledge the biblical distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Oneness equates the Holy Spirit as the Father, and claims, in many cases, that the Son is not deity, but is mere humanity the Father chooses to dwell in while on earth. At the Cross, Oneness, hold a strange belief that the Father was on the Cross, and that He left the Son to die on the Cross, the Father mystically departing out from the Son. In fact, many Oneness theologians claim that the Son is not in Heaven now, only the Father, and the Spirit, which are one in the same, and not distinct persons.

In alignment with this, the Oneness line of thought when it comes to the prayers of Jesus also deny the truth of scripture. Oneness claims that Jesus prayed to the Father only as example, and that the prayers were meant only for the disciples benefit. They refuse to see the full humility of the Son in the prayers of Him to the Father. Those who do acknowledge the prayers as legit claim that the human nature (Son) was only praying to His divine nature (Father) while the Father and Son were in the same body.

As touching the soteriology, Oneness Pentecostalism holds a very humanistic view of salvation. Oneness depends heavily on baptismal regeneration. They believe that a soul chooses God, repent of their sins on their own. From there, their sins are only forgiven/remitted through water baptism pronouncing the name of Jesus over the candidate for baptism. Then, God is obligated to fill that persons so that they speak in tongues. But, that is not all. You must work within your own power for both your salvation continuing and your sanctification. Jesus becomes nothing more than the means of salvation, but man is a co-redeemer in that work.

Next, let's look at their idea of holiness. In Oneness Pentecostalism, the Cross is the means of salvation, but not the means of our sanctification. In Oneness, one is sanctified only initially by salvation, but then we must work for our holiness by wearing the right clothes, avoiding all things worldly including all TV and movies, all alcohol with the exception of communion in some churches, and also no jewelry. In their belief system, women who wear pants are in sin, regardless of reason, because all pants are for men only.

Another point of Oneness cultism is the holy magic hair doctrine. This doctrine declares that a woman's uncut hair has mystical power to call down angels, and force God to answer prayer requests. The uncut hair is protection from demonic forces in a woman's house, but only if it is completely uncut.

These are the basic beliefs of the Oneness heresy. As you can see, each of these points are easily refuted, and in the morning, I will be offering the refutation of this heretical cult. Until then, I ask that my brethren here to also share in their refuting Oneness.


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## rpavich

Wow...

thanks for the comprehensive list...there were far more issues than I was aware of.

This also might be of help; it's a diagram that James White uses to describe heresies related to the trinity.

You see one side...then on the opposite side you see the heresy that pertains to it.


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## William Price

Morning Robert!

I was a minister in this cult for 15 years, a member for 17 years. I am so glad to be away from this heresy. There are other things which happen in Oneness churches. a small number believe in wife swapping. I have heard of young girls becoming pregnant, and the leadership advising the parents to travel south of the border for a 'medical procedure'. The endless heresies and sins are numerous.

when God saved me, He did a mighty deliverance, delivering me from religion and heresy, which I believe is a stronger addiction than any man-made drug or alcohol.


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## LawrenceU

William, I'm overjoyed at your deliverance. There are quite a few Oneness Pentecostals in our area. You are right. It is a cult.


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## Sven

Nothing new under the sun. These oneness pentacostals are just another manifestation of anabaptistic wierdness. While it is easy to refute these errors from Scripture, it is hard to convince them, because the passages used to refute their errors must be interpreted theologically. An interpretative method they reject. They only see what they want to see in the text, but when you show them clearly that the Son is not the Father nor the Spirit, etc., and that the three are one, they will not accept it. 

I've never heard of the wife swapping thing. Must be a local thing.

Thanks for this. It's easy to simply marginalize these people. I'm glad someone is taking the time to refute their errors. Hopefully God will use you to save some from the fire.


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## rpavich

I've never met a "Oneness" myself but I can say that no matter what scriptural support you have; it's God who must open the eyes.

We've all been in the situation where we were going through scripture with a Mormon, or Jay-dub, or whoever, showing a truth, supporting it, proving it, and the response is: "Well, that's the way YOU interpret it..."

arggg....


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## Rich Koster

William Price said:


> Some of my brethren on here may or may not know, but I came out from Oneness Pentecostalism into the glorious truth of true Christianity in February of this year, though I had tried to go back for a short time. I wanted to start a thread to help people dealing with Oneness Pentecostals, whether they be friends, family, co-workers, etc.
> 
> One of the man problems with Oneness Pentecostalism is the hybrid heresies of Monarchism and Patripassianism which dominate their view of the Godhead. Oneness believes without question, that God is one, but refuses to acknowledge the biblical distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Oneness equates the Holy Spirit as the Father, and claims, in many cases, that the Son is not deity, but is mere humanity the Father chooses to dwell in while on earth. At the Cross, Oneness, hold a strange belief that the Father was on the Cross, and that He left the Son to die on the Cross, the Father mystically departing out from the Son. In fact, many Oneness theologians claim that the Son is not in Heaven now, only the Father, and the Spirit, which are one in the same, and not distinct persons.
> 
> In alignment with this, the Oneness line of thought when it comes to the prayers of Jesus also deny the truth of scripture. Oneness claims that Jesus prayed to the Father only as example, and that the prayers were meant only for the disciples benefit. They refuse to see the full humility of the Son in the prayers of Him to the Father. Those who do acknowledge the prayers as legit claim that the human nature (Son) was only praying to His divine nature (Father) while the Father and Son were in the same body.
> 
> As touching the soteriology, Oneness Pentecostalism holds a very humanistic view of salvation. Oneness depends heavily on baptismal regeneration. They believe that a soul chooses God, repent of their sins on their own. From there, their sins are only forgiven/remitted through water baptism pronouncing the name of Jesus over the candidate for baptism. Then, God is obligated to fill that persons so that they speak in tongues. But, that is not all. You must work within your own power for both your salvation continuing and your sanctification. Jesus becomes nothing more than the means of salvation, but man is a co-redeemer in that work.
> 
> Next, let's look at their idea of holiness. In Oneness Pentecostalism, the Cross is the means of salvation, but not the means of our sanctification. In Oneness, one is sanctified only initially by salvation, but then we must work for our holiness by wearing the right clothes, avoiding all things worldly including all TV and movies, all alcohol with the exception of communion in some churches, and also no jewelry. In their belief system, women who wear pants are in sin, regardless of reason, because all pants are for men only.
> 
> Another point of Oneness cultism is the holy magic hair doctrine. This doctrine declares that a woman's uncut hair has mystical power to call down angels, and force God to answer prayer requests. The uncut hair is protection from demonic forces in a woman's house, but only if it is completely uncut.
> 
> These are the basic beliefs of the Oneness heresy. As you can see, each of these points are easily refuted, and in the morning, I will be offering the refutation of this heretical cult. Until then, I ask that my brethren here to also share in their refuting Oneness.



When "speaking in tongues" was there a lot of repetition of words like shundai or shabuta?


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## Marrow Man

William, I've read a good bit about OPs, but I've never heard the "magic hair" doctrine before. Is this a widespread (or even universal) belief among OPs, or is it isolated?


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## Grillsy

When I worked my old shift at WGOH-AM. I used to have Oneness Pentecostal broadcast that would air live in the studio. Everything that Williams has mentioned was preached openly on the air at 1:30 in the afternoon. It was an odd half hour of radio. That shift led to a crisis of conscience as you could imagine.


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## Caroline

Hey, another ex-Oneness Pentecostal!!! I LOVE meeting Reformed ex-Pentecostals!

Everything that you said in your post was absolutely correct. I have been shocked to discover, considering it now, the level of superstition and 'magic' involved in the so-called 'theology' of the group.



> They believe that a soul chooses God, repent of their sins on their own. From there, their sins are only forgiven/remitted through water baptism pronouncing the name of Jesus over the candidate for baptism.



Yes, they treat the name of Jesus as an incantation. Do you remember how people will stand there and say, "Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus ...." on and on and on over and over and over ... or, "I plead the blood of Jesus over this ..." etc, etc. And similarly for the baptism, it supposedly doesn't 'work' unless the name of Jesus is spoken. 

Someday, maybe I'll post some of my magic-hair pictures. *groan* I have these truly dreadful pictures of me when I was in the UPCI--hair down to my waist, long skirt, no make-up, miserable expression... Thank God for the freedom to wear jeans and to cut my hair to a reasonable length. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. The saddest thing I've ever heard is all those UPCI women talking about how 'free' they feel not to 'have to' wear pants or makeup or cut their hair or go to college. Well, I used to say that too. It's the greatest horror of all. At least people in prison don't have to pretend to like being in prison. Cults take over your mind and force you to lie, say things you don't really believe, like, "I feel so free!"

I'm glad you found your way out.


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## Claudiu

I come from a Pentecostal background (not Oneness though). But I do have some relatives that unknowingly started attending a Oneness Pentecostal church. Once they found out the doctrine they were preaching they decided to just stay in the church. When they told me about the believes the church holds to I was like..."What?" That was the first time I heard of such a thing. I didn't even know such an offshoot of Pentecostalism existed. 

Anyways, thanks for sharing. It was interesting to see a more in-depth view from someone whose been apart of the Oneness Pentecostal before.


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## Caroline

> When "speaking in tongues" was there a lot of repetition of words like shundai or shabuta?



Shandala, shandala, shandala.

I got annoyed with all the repetitiveness that I heard, so I used to hold an image of the alphabet in my mind to be sure that I was hitting a wide variety of letters. Then I took a French class in junior high, and threw a few French letters into the mix to give it a more exotic foreign-sounding flair. You'd think it would have occurred to me sooner that it wasn't a supernatural phenomenon, considering the amount of trouble I went to making it sound 'better'.


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## lynnie

My son is dating a girl who grew up UPC but went to a regular local Christian school. Her parents worst fears have been realized- she told them she is trinitarian, and she cut her hair. Really nice girl!! Things are tense at home, she says she feels like she is "living in a box"...but going away to college next year.

I had a real good friend saved into Oneness Pentecostalism, she was truly saved and loved the Lord. Argued all the time!!! I finally called a prof at Westminster Theological Seminary that hubby said was their expert on this, and he told me to shut up about the trinity and just stick to two guys (father- son) because that is so indisputably presented in scripture. Once they face the two, it is easier to add the Holy Spirit, but start with two.

It worked. I stuck to two, all over the bible, and she finally said there was no getting around the two. Eventually their UPC church folded and they ended up in a somewhat Reformed Church and have been very happy. The husband became a full blown Calvinist.

By the way, there is no getting around the fact that in the book of Acts every time they baptized, they did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "In the name of" means in the authority of, and all the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit had been given to the son. I found it best to agree that the NT church did baptize in the name of Jesus, and it gave me an open door to debate once I admitted that the early church baptized that way. 

Also, this girl's church taught that only Jesus is in heaven- "he who has seen me has seen the Father". God incarnated into the human body and stayed that way, and is in heaven in the flesh. I guess there must be schisms in the UPC if some say the Father alone is in heaven. ( not my field of expertise  )

Prayers for revival all around!!!! And a big welcome to you!


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## Grillsy

lynnie said:


> My son is dating a girl who grew up UPC but went to a regular local Christian school. Her parents worst fears have been realized- she told them she is trinitarian, and she cut her hair. Really nice girl!! Things are tense at home, she says she feels like she is "living in a box"...but going away to college next year.
> 
> I had a real good friend saved into Oneness Pentecostalism, she was truly saved and loved the Lord. Argued all the time!!! I finally called a prof at Westminster Theological Seminary that hubby said was their expert on this, and he told me to shut up about the trinity and just stick to two guys (father- son) because that is so indisputably presented in scripture. Once they face the two, it is easier to add the Holy Spirit, but start with two.
> 
> It worked. I stuck to two, all over the bible, and she finally said there was no getting around the two. Eventually their UPC church folded and they ended up in a somewhat Reformed Church and have been very happy. The husband became a full blown Calvinist.
> 
> By the way, there is no getting around the fact that in the book of Acts every time they baptized, they did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "In the name of" means in the authority of, and all the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit had been given to the son. I found it best to agree that the NT church did baptize in the name of Jesus, and it gave me an open door to debate once I admitted that the early church baptized that way.
> 
> Also, this girl's church taught that only Jesus is in heaven- "he who has seen me has seen the Father". God incarnated into the human body and stayed that way, and is in heaven in the flesh. I guess there must be schisms in the UPC if some say the Father alone is in heaven. ( not my field of expertise  )
> 
> Prayers for revival all around!!!! And a big welcome to you!



It will be interesting to see the response you get from this post.


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## Marrow Man

lynnie said:


> By the way, there is no getting around the fact that in the book of Acts every time they baptized, they did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "In the name of" means in the authority of, and all the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit had been given to the son. I found it best to agree that the NT church did baptize in the name of Jesus, and it gave me an open door to debate once I admitted that the early church baptized that way.



My understanding (please feel to correct) is that this is treated as a sort of baptismal "formula" by OPs -- i.e., those are the words that are used so that it is a non-trinitarian baptism. The problem is that whatever the English may appear to be, there is no way to justify this sort of "formula" when one looks at the underlying text. Here are the relevant passages (all KJV):

Acts 2:38 -- "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." [The Greek pronoun for "in" is actually "epi", which can mean in, on, or with.]

Acts 8:16 -- "For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." [The pronoun used here is "eis", which can mean "in" or "into".]

Acts 10:48 -- "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." [There is a textual variation here; some translations have "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"; the pronoun used is "en", which normal means "in" can also be translated "with" or "into" in the dative.]

Acts 19:5 -- "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." ["eis" is used again here].

So, in each of these four instances, different Greek pronouns and a different "formula" is used: "in the name of Jesus Christ", "in the name of the Lord Jesus", and "in the name of the Lord (or Lord Jesus Christ." There is no indication that apostles were using this as a formula statement, since they used a different variation in most instances. Instead, it is very much as you have stated, an authority/headship kind of statement of identification with Jesus Christ.


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## lynnie

I was told that "Lord Jesus Christ" stood for the three modes...The father was Lord, Jesus was Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the anointing (Christ). I still haven't figured out how the HS works in their doctrine, being as Jesus is now in heaven and all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him and there is only one God and he is it. But yeah, it is a formula, you have to say it that way with all three words, far as my old UPC friend went.

As a trinitarian, I have been in two Baptist churches in my 35 Christian years where a pastor/elder baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ according to the book of Acts, because Romans 6 presents baptism as our identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus, and as a picture of His particular work, and our union with Christ. But of course they believed totally in the trinity. Not at all the same as the UPC. The UPC thinks that when Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, son, and holy ghost, the apostles correctly realized oneness and Jesus only, and you have to interpret that command in the light of how the apostles understood it.

I only bring it up because I found that once I conceeded the words the apostles baptized with in Acts, which was a HUGE issue, I found that their defenses broke and they could then talk about Daniel's vision with God on the throne and the lamb next to him, and Revelation visions with two guys, and Jesus in the garden in John 17 praying to the father. You have to pick your battles, that was how I picked mine.

I have no problems personally with a trinitarian baptizing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and would not demand rebaptism with the trinitarian formula, but hey, I'm not the most perfect PCA BCO girl so don't flame me too much


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## Caroline

Grillsy said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> 
> My son is dating a girl who grew up UPC but went to a regular local Christian school. Her parents worst fears have been realized- she told them she is trinitarian, and she cut her hair. Really nice girl!! Things are tense at home, she says she feels like she is "living in a box"...but going away to college next year.
> 
> I had a real good friend saved into Oneness Pentecostalism, she was truly saved and loved the Lord. Argued all the time!!! I finally called a prof at Westminster Theological Seminary that hubby said was their expert on this, and he told me to shut up about the trinity and just stick to two guys (father- son) because that is so indisputably presented in scripture. Once they face the two, it is easier to add the Holy Spirit, but start with two.
> 
> It worked. I stuck to two, all over the bible, and she finally said there was no getting around the two. Eventually their UPC church folded and they ended up in a somewhat Reformed Church and have been very happy. The husband became a full blown Calvinist.
> 
> By the way, there is no getting around the fact that in the book of Acts every time they baptized, they did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "In the name of" means in the authority of, and all the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit had been given to the son. I found it best to agree that the NT church did baptize in the name of Jesus, and it gave me an open door to debate once I admitted that the early church baptized that way.
> 
> Also, this girl's church taught that only Jesus is in heaven- "he who has seen me has seen the Father". God incarnated into the human body and stayed that way, and is in heaven in the flesh. I guess there must be schisms in the UPC if some say the Father alone is in heaven. ( not my field of expertise  )
> 
> Prayers for revival all around!!!! And a big welcome to you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see the response you get from this post.
Click to expand...


In my experience, there is little coherence to the Oneness view. I was taught that the Father and Jesus are both in heaven, that in the incarnation, the Father took only some of Himself and put it in Jesus, but that after the rapture, Jesus will sort of be 'reabsorbed' into the Father. Rather creepy, isn't it?

As far as whether or not the apostles baptized in the 'Jesus' formula, I really don't care. My point with UPCIers (for those who don't know, UPC and UPCI are interchangeable ... it used to be UPC, and then they added the word 'international' to their name, and now it's UPCI) is always that it's a sacrament, not magic. It doesn't really matter whether someone says "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" or "in the name of Jesus" or "Lord, here's Fred!" There is no power in the words themselves.

Personally, I'm a fan of 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' baptism formula, only because it is self-consciously Trinitarian, and it is respectful and appropriate. But I attack the Oneness baptism formula not because of the formula itself but because of the magical thinking behind it ... a magical thinking that pervades every area of their theology.

For example, part of the point of UPCI worship is to 'bring the Holy Ghost down'. Their 'worship song' reflect that.

"Send it on down, Lord, send it on down! Lord, let the Holy Ghost come on down!"

"Come, Holy Spirit, hear us calling ..."

"The windows of heaven are open, the fire is falling tonight!"

Etc

And then when everybody starts feeling warm and fuzzy and hopping around, that's when the HG is supposedly 'there'. And people who are especially thrashing about, jerking, screaming, etc, are the ones particularly under the influence of the HG.

It's conjuring. They are conjuring up the 'Holy Ghost' like He is a familiar spirit. It has more in common with voodoo, I think, than mainstream Christianity.


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## Mark Hettler

William Price said:


> As touching the soteriology, Oneness Pentecostalism holds a very humanistic view of salvation. Oneness depends heavily on baptismal regeneration. They believe that a soul chooses God, repent of their sins on their own. From there, their sins are only forgiven/remitted through water baptism pronouncing the name of Jesus over the candidate for baptism. Then, God is obligated to fill that persons so that they speak in tongues.



Does this mean that (according to them) if one does not speak in tongues, one is not saved?


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## LawrenceU

Mark Hettler said:


> William Price said:
> 
> 
> 
> As touching the soteriology, Oneness Pentecostalism holds a very humanistic view of salvation. Oneness depends heavily on baptismal regeneration. They believe that a soul chooses God, repent of their sins on their own. From there, their sins are only forgiven/remitted through water baptism pronouncing the name of Jesus over the candidate for baptism. Then, God is obligated to fill that persons so that they speak in tongues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean that (according to them) if one does not speak in tongues, one is not saved?
Click to expand...

 
Around here, yes. Actually every Oneness Pentecostal that I have ever met holds to this. That would at least those I've met in Arkansas, Louisiana, Arizona, Alabama, and Kansas


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## Rich Koster

Here's a link to their statement about tongues on their site. It states receiving the HS is evidenced with tongues. Now we have to cross reference when someone is saved by their terminology. 

"The requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit are repentance and faith. In many cases, those who tarry for this spiritual experience without receiving it simply have not repented. If and when this is true, it is useless for such a one to praise God with the expectation of receiving the Holy Ghost. He should first repent and claim God's promise of forgiveness. As his burdens lift because of confession of sin and as he feels God's love and mercy, he will naturally begin to worship God. And God will pour out His Spirit upon this repentant, believing, worshipping soul!"



United Pentecostal Church International


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## Caroline

It's called the three-fold salvation, and it is based on Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

This is the slogan of the UPC. Based on this verse, they believe that salvation comes only when someone (1) repents (2) is baptized in the name of Jesus and (3) receives the baptism of the HG with speaking in tongues. Without all three, someone is not considered saved. They also frequently rebaptize if someone 'backslides', just to be on the safe side ... start the process again: repent, be baptized in Jesus name, speak in tongues.

Here's my tongue-in-cheek UPCI Extremely Narrow Catechism that makes reference to the 'obey Acts 2:38' slogan: click here. It's kinda a joke ... but still true.


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## ReformedDave

I was a UPC/oneness member for over 30 years and my cousin is the General Sup. of the UPC. I think it is only fair to point out that oneness pentecostalism is not a monolith. There are variants. The "magic hair" doctrine is an extreme example held by some but not all. 

The consistant areas that almost all oneness would argee on are the absolute 'oneness' of God and the insistence to baptize using the "Jesus Name" formula. The speaking of tongues as being essential to one's salvation is not held by all.


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## Caroline

That's a good point, ReformedDave, and to be honest, you probably have a better perspective of the liberal side of the UPCI than I would. I was in a fairly isolated and extreme group, even for the UPC, and I think most of the people that I correspond with are also from the more extreme side. There are some churches that are more moderate, but I believe that the UPC doctrinal statement itself does hold that tongues is necessary for salvation.


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## ReformedDave

Caroline said:


> That's a good point, ReformedDave, and to be honest, you probably have a better perspective of the liberal side of the UPCI than I would. I was in a fairly isolated and extreme group, even for the UPC, and I think most of the people that I correspond with are also from the more extreme side. There are some churches that are more moderate, but I believe that the UPC doctrinal statement itself does hold that tongues is necessary for salvation.



I agree concerning the UPC doctrinal statement. My late father was a charter ministerial member of the UPC and while he held to this position he made it very clear to me that many did not hold that position including many from one of the two organizations that merged to become the UPC.


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## lynnie

Oh Caroline. That shorter catechism both so funny and so sad all at the same time.


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## Rich Koster

lynnie said:


> Oh Caroline. That shorter catechism both so funny and so sad all at the same time.


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## Mark Hettler

> Q14: And what shall we do if the pastor falls into sin?
> 
> A14: If he doth keep his evil deeds mostly hidden, then thou shalt regard all accusation of wrongdoing as lies, for as the scripture saith, all words must be established by two or three witnesses. Thou shalt round that number up to twenty or thirty witnesses, just to be on the safe side.
> 
> 
> Q15 What shall we do if the pastor is as dumb as a rock and commits evil deeds in the sight of the entire church?
> 
> A15: Then thou shalt not bring any action against him, because he is the Lord's Anointed and the scriptures have decreed that thou shalt not touch the Lord's anointed. Instead , thou shalt accuse laypersons of tempting the pastor to sin and cast them from the church. Then thou shalt declare the matter closed and refuse to speak of it again. Anyone who persists in bringing it up shall be called a bitter and rebellious troublemaker and shall be forced to repent at the altar before the entire congregation in order to escape the fires of hell.



Happened at your church too? Small world.


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## Caroline

ReformedDave said:


> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, ReformedDave, and to be honest, you probably have a better perspective of the liberal side of the UPCI than I would. I was in a fairly isolated and extreme group, even for the UPC, and I think most of the people that I correspond with are also from the more extreme side. There are some churches that are more moderate, but I believe that the UPC doctrinal statement itself does hold that tongues is necessary for salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree concerning the UPC doctrinal statement. My late father was a charter ministerial member of the UPC and while he held to this position he made it very clear to me that many did not hold that position including many from one of the two organizations that merged to become the UPC.
Click to expand...


That's fascinating. I'd love to hear your story sometime. Is it on a website anywhere? I would ask you also what you thought of the recent UPCI split and where you think that's headed ... but then I would be taking the thread in random directions, I suppose.

-----Added 7/16/2009 at 11:24:23 EST-----



Mark Hettler said:


> Q14: And what shall we do if the pastor falls into sin?
> 
> A14: If he doth keep his evil deeds mostly hidden, then thou shalt regard all accusation of wrongdoing as lies, for as the scripture saith, all words must be established by two or three witnesses. Thou shalt round that number up to twenty or thirty witnesses, just to be on the safe side.
> 
> 
> Q15 What shall we do if the pastor is as dumb as a rock and commits evil deeds in the sight of the entire church?
> 
> A15: Then thou shalt not bring any action against him, because he is the Lord's Anointed and the scriptures have decreed that thou shalt not touch the Lord's anointed. Instead , thou shalt accuse laypersons of tempting the pastor to sin and cast them from the church. Then thou shalt declare the matter closed and refuse to speak of it again. Anyone who persists in bringing it up shall be called a bitter and rebellious troublemaker and shall be forced to repent at the altar before the entire congregation in order to escape the fires of hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happened at your church too? Small world.
Click to expand...


Yeah ... it's weird how that goes sometimes, isn't it? If someone is considered 'anointed', he's just beyond the reach of normal justice, it seems. In one situation that went on, a pastor was caught molesting a little girl. The little girl was disciplined for 'seducing him'. As far as I know, the pastor was never disciplined. He claimed that he had been under the influence of demons at the time who were trying to wreck his ministry.


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## William Price

ReformedDave said:


> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, ReformedDave, and to be honest, you probably have a better perspective of the liberal side of the UPCI than I would. I was in a fairly isolated and extreme group, even for the UPC, and I think most of the people that I correspond with are also from the more extreme side. There are some churches that are more moderate, but I believe that the UPC doctrinal statement itself does hold that tongues is necessary for salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree concerning the UPC doctrinal statement. My late father was a charter ministerial member of the UPC and while he held to this position he made it very clear to me that many did not hold that position including many from one of the two organizations that merged to become the UPC.
Click to expand...




Dave, is that you????

You a Padres fan?!


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## ReformedDave

William Price said:


> ReformedDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, ReformedDave, and to be honest, you probably have a better perspective of the liberal side of the UPCI than I would. I was in a fairly isolated and extreme group, even for the UPC, and I think most of the people that I correspond with are also from the more extreme side. There are some churches that are more moderate, but I believe that the UPC doctrinal statement itself does hold that tongues is necessary for salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree concerning the UPC doctrinal statement. My late father was a charter ministerial member of the UPC and while he held to this position he made it very clear to me that many did not hold that position including many from one of the two organizations that merged to become the UPC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave, is that you????
> 
> You a Padres fan?!
Click to expand...


Yeah it's me. I live in San Diego and so a life long Padres' fan...... And you say there is no purgatory


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## William Price

ReformedDave said:


> Yeah it's me. I live in San Diego and so a life long Padres' fan...... And you say there is no purgatory



Yeah brother. These past 5 months of going back and forth, God was doing a work on me and in me. I had to wait until that work was completed before I could walk from Oneness. It was God who brought me out, and by His sovereign grace I am standing firm in the faith.

Also, FYI, since God has done a work, and I can say fully that He has regenerated my heart truly for the first time in my life, I have opted to be baptized hopefully this weekend. 

Dave, you be blessed in the Lord, old man, and may He deliver you to a better place... like Houston!


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## JoeRe4mer

William I know how difficult leaving a oneness group can be. God has truly blessed you don't go back brother.


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## William Price

JoeRe4mer said:


> William I know how difficult leaving a oneness group can be. God has truly blessed you don't go back brother.



I have no intention of ever returning... God finished a work and it was confirmed by an e-mail I received from my former pastor, who labeled me a reprobate, heretic, and a pig returning to his mire. That sealed the deal that God had done a work, because it did not hurt anymore.

I am delivered from there. I love those in that group and pray their eyes be opened to the grace of God by the working of the regenerating power of the Spirit, even as God has done in me.


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## shackleton

William, Praise God you were able to get out. Were you in the United Pentecostal Church? I was in the UPC for about 5 years and went to Indiana Bible College it was there that I spent a lot of time studying the bible on my own and seeing that what they taught did not match up to well with what the bible taught and eventually left the group. Except I was burnt out on church and especially preachers for over ten years and only just recently started going back to church and discovered reformed theology. If you managed to avoid the burnout and cynicism you are most fortunate. 
Good luck with you and your endeavors.

-----Added 7/17/2009 at 11:11:43 EST-----



ReformedDave said:


> I was a UPC/oneness member for over 30 years and my cousin is the General Sup. of the UPC. I think it is only fair to point out that oneness pentecostalism is not a monolith. There are variants. The "magic hair" doctrine is an extreme example held by some but not all.
> 
> The consistant areas that almost all oneness would argee on are the absolute 'oneness' of God and the insistence to baptize using the "Jesus Name" formula. The speaking of tongues as being essential to one's salvation is not held by all.



I never heard that Jesus was not God or the magic hair thing and I went to one of their bible colleges. Some of the things he states sounds familiar but a lot does not and I spent a lot of time in different churches. To be fair I think a lot of those people are saved they are just led astray by bad teaching. Plus, they sort of tell everyone that they have the truth and everyone else is in heresy. They imply that if you leave them, you are going to hell. But to be fair an OPC pastor said the same thing to me when I told him I was thinking of becoming Baptist or Lutheran.


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## ReformedDave

shackleton said:


> I never heard that Jesus was not God or the magic hair thing and I went to one of their bible colleges. Some of the things he states sounds familiar but a lot does not and I spent a lot of time in different churches. To be fair I think a lot of those people are saved they are just led astray by bad teaching. Plus, they sort of tell everyone that they have the truth and everyone else is in heresy. They imply that if you leave them, you are going to hell. But to be fair an OPC pastor said the same thing to me when I told him I was thinking of becoming Baptist or Lutheran.



Through much psycological turmoil I've come to the conclusion that the majority do NOT understand the Gospel and therefore I have to treat them as a mission field.


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## shackleton

I agree they do NOT understand the gospel but I would have to say that the handful of people I am thinking of are probably saved, though deceived. They are very brainwashed into thinking that they have the truth and if they leave, even to go to another denomination, it is like leaving the church and putting yourself under God's judgment. It is like physiological imprisonment. 

It is hard to talk to these people because they treat you like you are backslidden (sp?) and are trying to convert you and won't listen to anything you have to say. It is like talking to Mormons or JW's. 

I just recently got back in touch with a good friend I went to bible college with through Facebook, he even lives just a couple hours away, and I am trying to figure out how to talk to him and possibly plant seeds of truth. I know I will be treated with pity, like I could not handle the truth and gave myself over to the Devil. 

I know they are listed as a cult because of their denial of the Trinity but I think it is the psychological manipulation that makes it a cult.


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## Caroline

> I know they are listed as a cult because of their denial of the Trinity but I think it is the psychological manipulation that makes it a cult.



I wonder how anyone could have been in the UPC and not heard of the magic hair thing (doesn't the name Ruth Rieder Harvey ring a bell?), but I suppose it depends on which circles you run in. There isn't exactly an organized theology in Pentecostalism.

But I agree that the psychological manipulation is very heavy, and that it is that which makes it a 'cult' in the fullest sense.


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## shackleton

The "magic hair thing" is starting to come back to me. It has been 15 years since I was in the UPC. I might be confusing what I learned from my own study versus what I was taught. 

It looks as if there are a lot of ex-oneness folks here.


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## Quickened

I appreciate the insight everyone is offering! I am not 100% familiar with oneness so the more info into their beliefs is much appreciated!


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## ReformedDave

Quickened said:


> I appreciate the insight everyone is offering! I am not 100% familiar with oneness so the more info into their beliefs is much appreciated!



They are a Pentecostal group that denies the trinity and has a modalistic view of God. The majority believe that salvation comes as a result of repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.


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## Iakobos_1071

I have really enjoyed this thread. I am also ex-Oneness Pentecostal (with a side order of gnosticism). My family on my mother's side are Oneness Pentecostal. I hear it from my mother all the time. She thinks I am in a cult, believing in reformed theology. She says my Geneva Bible is like a Book of Mormon. *sigh*. 

I recommend "Christianity without the Cross: A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism" by Thomas A. Fudge

It really opened my eyes to things I didn't even know about the Oneness Pentecostal church history!

Christianity Without the Cross: A ... - Google Books


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## Michael

*bump*

I have no history with OPs but am fascinated with cults and conversion to Christianity. Great stuff!


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## Iakobos_1071

This helped me trying to understand the Trinity coming out of the Oneness belief for almost 30 years, I just thought I would share.. I got this off of the CRTA site.

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Calvinism Soteriology Topics


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## Wayne

I'm impressed with how many on this List were once in that cult. Praise God for His redeeming power.

Can anyone tell me about Urshan Grad School here in St. Louis? Their students are frequently on the Covenant Seminary campus to use the library. One prior post mentioned a more liberal wing of the UP's. Where would Urshan fit on a spectrum, and what difference might that make?


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## reformedminister

Although I was raised in the United Methodist Church, I spent five years in the Oneness Pentecostal circle. Half of the time was in a "liberal" UPC church (By liberal I mean they allow some jewelry to be worn and let you watch TV but you can't go to the movies!) and the other half was in a very conservative "apostolic" church (They did not allow any jewelry or TV; my arms didn't see any sun for about two years). The only positive thing I can say about the bunch is that they know how to pray and would put most modern "Reformed" folks to shame in that area. Other than that, most of the churches have attributes that resemble cults, apart from their heresy. Thank God brother, you have been delivered from this. I thank the Lord that I was too! Ironically, I became a Calvinist within six years after leaving this sect. I studied the Bible dilligently for the truth and to rid my mind and heart from Scriptural error.


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## Iakobos_1071

Well the war goes on with my 1UPC mother. Please keep me in prayer.. she will not listen to anything I say. She thinks I am the one in a cult because I am not Pentecostal. She thinks my Geneva Bible is like a Book of Mormon no matter how many times, or different ways I explain to here what it is.. She now thinks I worship 3 gods and do not believe in the New Testament at all. Please pray for my strength.


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## Clay7926

Jym, 

I'll be praying for your relationship with your Mom. If anything, remember that it will take the power of the true Holy Spirit to open her eyes, and it may take time. 

Also, as another former Oneness Pentecostal, I wanted to jump in:

Whenever you hear of folks talking about the conservative/liberal movements in the UPCI/Oneness Pentecostalism, it mainly refers to the issue of the holiness standards of dress. Oneness Penecostals all still teach the same message of Holy Ghost=speaking in tongues and literal Jesus name baptism--there is no compromise there. 

Some of the more ultra-conservatives in the movement formed a new group, the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship, because they felt that the UPCI had become more 'worldy' and less strict on the standards (in one specific instance, the UPCI voted that it was OK for their churches to advertise on television).

I'll agree with Jym: anyone who wants a good, non-biased understanding of how the Oneness Pentecostal movement began should really pick up Dr. Fudge's book. It helped me greatly when I was left in 2006.


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## Iakobos_1071

(Thank you Henry.. You and your prayer have been a great help to me...)

I have noticed that most people who are running to Christ, or feel drawn to him still have many disagreements with each other. The bible does say that we judge the fruits of people to tell if the are of God. But what about the ones that are off in sin but the hand of God. God has people going through trials and tribulations. This does not mean that they are not saved or Elect. That is why we have to preach the Gospel to every one so that the activation of the Holy Spirit in some one will regenerate them and make them alive in Christ. But what about the ones who already think they are saved. Are they? I mean I am looking at these Oneness Pentecostals who really believe that water baptism is what saves them. I used to believe the same way! How do you preach to someone who thinks they are already saved? That is why I can only take so much of the 1PC garbage of them just repeating Acts2:38 and John 3:5 over and over. The fact is that they are mis interparating these scriptures. I don't believe "preaching the Gospel" is debating the Word of God. What is Preaching the Gospel to you?

It took a very blatant and rude man challenging my belief in the 1PC faith. He broke down the scripture and defined the words then got in my face and said that pentecostolism is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He called 1PC a lie from the pit of Hell. When the connection of the past convictions and his words connected.. I couldn't talk for 2 days. I was in shock, literally. But it wasn't until the Calvinistic messages of grace came in until i started actual spiritual healing from the years of spiritual abuse. 

Being ex-Oneness Pentecostal, I feel like I need to help these people because I was there, I believed that lie. But I am completely lost as to how, I mean I need to know how to present the true gospel of the bible, salvation by Grace, Faith, and Christ alone. Sola Scriptura: relying on nothing extra biblical such as modern prophetic tongues, dreams and visions making the Bible forfeit.

Keep me in prayer.


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## Caroline

> It took a very blatant and rude man challenging my belief in the 1PC faith. He broke down the scripture and defined the words then got in my face and said that pentecostolism is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He called 1PC a lie from the pit of Hell. When the connection of the past convictions and his words connected.. I couldn't talk for 2 days. I was in shock, literally. But it wasn't until the Calvinistic messages of grace came in until i started actual spiritual healing from the years of spiritual abuse.



This is very interesting to me. I have thought before that one of the things that I have difficulty coming to terms with in looking back is how seldom anyone from outside the cult told me that I was wrong. Being of the cult mindset, I assumed (as everyone that I knew in the cult assumed) that they knew we were right, but they didn't want to live for God. I wish someone had done exactly as this guy did for you. 

When I talk to UPC-ers, I tell them flat-out that they are deceived and that I pray that God will open their eyes to the truth of their condition. It never fails that they are stunned out of their minds. They are all prepared to be the holy ones and expect that I will admit that I am backslidden and miserably far from God and living in sin.

Anyone reading this who runs across UPC people ... for the love of God and for the sake of mercy, tell them they are wrong. Mostly, they are either born into it or they had no experience with Christianity other than the UPCI. Mostly, they really don't know.


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## Clay7926

Caroline said:


> Anyone reading this who runs across UPC people ... for the love of God and for the sake of mercy, tell them they are wrong. Mostly, they are either born into it or they had no experience with Christianity other than the UPCI. Mostly, they really don't know.



You're absolutely right; the UPCI was the only Christianity I knew until I went to high school and college and really learned how truly big the body of Christ really is (I did end up staying in the UPCI for 5 more years, but that's another story )

Something else I've realized about speaking with UPC folks is that you need to come with scripture (specifically in pointing out the original Greek and Hebrew and focusing on context). Folks can argue feelings and miracles for ages, but anyone who is a Christian must bring feelings and thoughts with the Bible. 

In instances where a loved one in the UPC won't listen to what you have to say, or refuse to engage what the scriptures say in context, all we can do is pray for them and trust that if they are one of God's elect, He will ensure that they will ultimately be saved. If anything, the LORD could be using you to plant a seed in their life that someone else will need to water.


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## MMasztal

Caroline said:


> When "speaking in tongues" was there a lot of repetition of words like shundai or shabuta?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shandala, shandala, shandala.
> 
> I got annoyed with all the repetitiveness that I heard, so I used to hold an image of the alphabet in my mind to be sure that I was hitting a wide variety of letters. Then I took a French class in junior high, and threw a few French letters into the mix to give it a more exotic foreign-sounding flair. You'd think it would have occurred to me sooner that it wasn't a supernatural phenomenon, considering the amount of trouble I went to making it sound 'better'.
Click to expand...


I teach at a non-denominational Christian school (we just had our 25th anniv- about 140 students K-12), but we use the facilities of a "Tabernacle" church. They are pentacostal and on occasion their elders (male and female) will join us in prayer. When school started this year, the Tab's elders joined the schools teachers in prayer. A woman elder standing next to me was yapping away. It took an incredible amount of restraint not to turn to her and say, "Stop it!".


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## Caroline

> Folks can argue feelings and miracles for ages, but anyone who is a Christian must bring feelings and thoughts with the Bible.



Amen! When talking to Pentecostals, I always start by asking them whether they believe the Bibleand whether they trust the Bible more than anything else. That way, when they later tell me that the Bible is irrelevant because they have some experience or feeling, I can remind them of what they said earlier.



> I teach at a non-denominational Christian school (we just had our 25th anniv- about 140 students K-12), but we use the facilities of a "Tabernacle" church. They are pentacostal and on occasion their elders (male and female) will join us in prayer. When school started this year, the Tab's elders joined the schools teachers in prayer. A woman elder standing next to me was yapping away. It took an incredible amount of restraint not to turn to her and say, "Stop it!".



I admire your restraint.


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