# Free Choice vs. Free Will



## Cheshire Cat (Jul 13, 2006)

The Puritand Board is my first introduction to Calvinism. You may ask yourself how I got in here in the first place, but that is no matter as I am already in and learning. My question is do we have free choice and not free will? How do I efficiently and effectively argue that humans do not have free will but we are still responsible? Oh yeah any recommendations for good books on Calvinism? -Caleb


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## fivepointcalvinist (Jul 13, 2006)

No Place for Sovereignty: What's Wrong With Freewill Theism 

The Bondage of the Will


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## caddy (Jul 13, 2006)

Loraine Boettner's *Predestination* is a wonderfully descriptive book. It will provide you with many good answers to your questions.

Before God regenerates us, we are free to do exactly what we please to do, but that will always be exactly the opposite of God's will. After He regenerates us, our wills are Free to do His will.

Augustine has an appropiate quote concerning this, but it has slipped my memory.

[size=-2]http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=1|10[/size]

Cut & past the line: the 1|10 is messing up the link

Sorry

"Fallen man has the natural ability to make choices but lacks the moral ability to make godly choices."

I think this was Boettner

[Edited on 7-13-2006 by caddy]

[Edited on 7-14-2006 by caddy]


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## Cheshire Cat (Jul 14, 2006)

Thanks for the links. I think I should have started with an article less complex than this one by R. L. Dabney: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=1|10|97

The article by Loraine Boettner is alot easier to read. 

Is it kind of like entrapment (except without negative connotations associated with the word)? Like we are guided in the ultimate plan but we freely choose and in as such are responsible. ? 



[Edited on 7-14-2006 by caleb_woodrow]


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 14, 2006)

Excellent paper on choice or free will:

http://www.semperreformanda.com/decision.htm


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## Don Kistler (Jul 14, 2006)

Jonathan Edwards explained it this way: You always do what seems good to you, and you freely choose to do it. You will always act in accordance with your strongest inclination, which will be determined by your nature. A man will always act like a man because he has the nature of a man. A sinner will always act like a sinner because he has the nature of a sinner. And you freely choose to do those things that seem good to you.

When the nature is changed, then the inclinations will change and the choices will change. But all along the choices are yours, and you freely choose them.


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## wsw201 (Jul 14, 2006)

Speaking of Edwards, his book Freedom of the Will is one of the best out there on this issue. Edwards is not an easy read, but he's very good.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 14, 2006)

The first step is always to agree on a definition of 'free will'. I always give a shortened version of Edward's def.

Free will is the ability to choose freely that which we desire the most.

The other side is usually thinking that free will means free choice and knowing that we are choosing agents see a discrepancy with our logic. Logically there can be no such thing as a free will, a will that can choose against that which it desires most. But I will usually concede a free will and then speak about how our nature is not and our will must serve our nature. 

I usually relate the story of my dogs. I may throw a steak out the back door to the right. My dogs will always go to the right as well. They will never go to the left. Are they free? Yes. Am I forcing them to the right? No. They may go anywhere, but their nature will always compel them to follow the steak. Our depraved nature sees sin as a steak. We are free to choose sin. When we are converted, then we are free not to choose sin for now we have two natures. An old sinful garment that is worthless and a new garment that we must put on.

Remember the 3 p's.
We are not free from the presence of sin, but we are free from the penalty and the power of sin.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 14, 2006)

Augustine defined free will as the ability to choose the other, and from there reasoned that we do NOT have free wills. What he meant was that in the exercise of our wills, we are only free to choose consistently with our natures. Paul describes us as dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2) and, therefore the only choice we can make with our wills is to reject God, apart from his gracious intervention. The questions that invariably arise from Arminians (which you phrased as entrapment) invariably arise from a defective view of sin and grace and from the mistaken belief that we all deserve salvation. Hang in there. You are in for a long ride!


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## Cheshire Cat (Aug 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> Hang in there. You are in for a long ride!


You could say that again. There is SO much information out there, its great and at the same time overwhelming. 

Here is a quote by W. E. Best that I think treats the matter well: 

"The Puritans correctly stated that man does not have the ability to change his moral state by an act of will. Man must be a free agent to be accountable to God. However, one cannot attribute moral agency to man. Free agency is the power to decide according to one´s character. Free will is the power to change one´s character by volition or choice. Free agency belongs to every man, but the power to change one´s character by the exercise of the will does not belong to mankind. Man is free to use his hand, but the hand is not free. It does only what the man commands it to do. It is a slave to his muscles. An unsaved person must act in harmony with his deceitful, wicked, depraved nature. He cannot act contrary to that which is commanded by his heart. 

The same God who has ordained all events has ordained the free agency of man in the midst of the course of events He foreordained. The gospel is not forced on the elect against their wills (Ps. 110:3). Their wills are changed through regeneration, which makes them willing to accept the gospel."


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## Puritanhead (Aug 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> The Puritand Board is my first introduction to Calvinism. You may ask yourself how I got in here in the first place, but that is no matter as I am already in and learning. My question is do we have free choice and not free will? How do I efficiently and effectively argue that humans do not have free will but we are still responsible? Oh yeah any recommendations for good books on Calvinism? -Caleb


Who ever said humans don't have "free will?" I believe we are free moral agents and in some sense may be said to exercise free will, but it only begs questions about the nature of that freedom. It's all in how one defines "free will." Do we ascribe salvific powers to "free will" as the Arminian does? Many read inferential premises into "free will."

Read R.C. Sproul's _Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will_. That's the best introduction for laity, since the pertinent books by Martin Luther and Jonathan Edwards are often too deep.


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## Cheshire Cat (Aug 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> ...



Yeah that initial post of mine was made before I had really read anything on the topic. I had only heard of free will in the libertarian sense. 



> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_Read R.C. Sproul's _Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will_. That's the best introduction for laity, since the pertinent books by Martin Luther and Jonathan Edwards are often too deep.


Thanks, i'll check it out.

[Edited on 8-15-2006 by caleb_woodrow]


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## govols (Aug 15, 2006)

Spurgeon on Free Will

Spurgeon again


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## Puritanhead (Aug 16, 2006)

Man's Will- Free Yet Bound by Walter J. Chantry.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Aug 16, 2006)

Man has a free will, and is under no compulsion to do anything. God is also completely sovereign and providentially oversees all that comes to pass.


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## Puritanhead (Aug 16, 2006)

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."
"”C.H. Spurgeon


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## Cheshire Cat (Aug 16, 2006)

I now understand the compatibilist account of free will and agree with it, but I still like all of the links being posted. Good info! Now I have a ton of books and articles to read on the subject.


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