# Gay marriage celebrated at PC(USA) General Assembly Event



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

> Gay marriage celebrated
> at General Assembly event
> 
> By Parker T. Williamson
> ...



Link


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## JBaldwin (Jun 23, 2008)

We left the PCUSA in the 1990s after being members for 3 years, and it was over this issue. I attended a PCUSA worship conference where they brought a gay person up on the stage to participate in the worship. I walked out. We approached our elders over the issue, and it turned into a nasty trial where I was the accused. Needless to say, we left before they kicked us out.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> We left the PCUSA in the 1990s after being members for 3 years, and it was over this issue. I attended a PCUSA worship conference where they brought a gay person up on the stage to participate in the worship. I walked out. We approached our elders over the issue, and it turned into a nasty trial where I was the accused. Needless to say, we left before they kicked us out.



 and Hallelujah!!! that you left Sodom as I did this year.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jun 23, 2008)

watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.


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## Ivan (Jun 23, 2008)

Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?

I think not.


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## Ron (Jun 23, 2008)

If the PCA doesn't deal with the Irons family soon, don't be surprised if this sort of thing happens within that denomination. You say "surely you must be kidding." Well, do you think anyone in the PCA back in 1983 would have thought that an adult Sunday school class in the PCA would, in the next 25 years, be run like the one being run today in Burbank, CA? Don't be high minded, but fear.

Ron


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## Ron (Jun 23, 2008)

Ivan said:


> Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?
> 
> I think not.



You haven't read 1 Corinthians in a while I would guess. 

Ron


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## Ron (Jun 23, 2008)

> The Rev. Jane Spahr, who calls herself "a lesbian evangelist," conducted a marriage ceremony for two lesbians. A judicial complaint was filed, and a lower court found her guilty as charged, but on appeal the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission overturned the conviction. The high court ruled in May that, although both the couple and Spahr called the ceremony a marriage, it could not have been a marriage since by denominational definition same-gender marriage does not exist...



By this reasoning, one cannot be excommunicated for worshipping false gods since by definition false gods don't actually exist! 

Ron


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 23, 2008)

How sad.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

Anton Bruckner said:


> watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.



The "dwindling" is starting to speed up. 100,000 lost in FY 2007.


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## Ron (Jun 23, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Anton Bruckner said:
> 
> 
> > watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.
> ...



The question is where are they going? Is God moving his people to better denominations, or are unconverted people simply moving away from the church. Or maybe it's just attrition through the passing on of senior saints. Who knows? In any case, implosion is good in cases such as this...

Ron


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

Ron said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Anton Bruckner said:
> ...



Three things.

1) Old Saints moving on to Glory

2) Some is from churches going EPC

3) Most are people just leaving the Church all together.


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## Grymir (Jun 23, 2008)

This is sad. Is Christ outside of the Church knocking?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

If he was they would not let him in because he is Jewish and probably would not support the PC(USA)'s anti-semitic policies.


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## fredtgreco (Jun 23, 2008)

Ivan said:


> Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?
> 
> I think not.



No. It cannot.

Cross-less Christianity promoted - 6/21/08

Overture: Christians, Muslims 'worship a common God' - 6/18/08

Controversial 'Trinity Paper' returns to 218th Assembly - 6/13/08


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2008)

Wcf


> *chapter Xxv
> Of The Church*
> 
> *v. The Purest Churches Under Heaven Are Subject Both To Mixture And Error; And Some Have So Degenerated, As To Become No Churches Of Christ, But Synagogues Of Satan.*


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## Grymir (Jun 23, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Wcf
> 
> 
> > *chapter Xxv
> ...



That is the question we must ask ourselves. To be, or not to be a Church anymore, doth the raven ask. For we have mixture and error. For now, I'll wait and see what my local church says and does.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 23, 2008)

I missed the sodomite marriages... I seem to recall Paul telling them that such WERE some of you....





Ron said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?
> ...


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## BJClark (Jun 23, 2008)

My uncle left the PC-USA church he had been a member of for years, over this issue and women preachers..I'm not sure which church he is going to now, last I talked to him he was still looking for a church that teaches the Bible. 

I told him they have a new PCA church up his way..I'm not sure if he's been to visit it yet or not..


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## Barnpreacher (Jun 23, 2008)

Ron said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?
> ...



I've got to say this (Mods feel free to remove my remarks if you deem it necessary). This comment was out of line. This was a rather big assumption on your part, Ron, based on one comment by Pastor Ivan that you didn't necessarily agree with. I would venture to guess that he has read I Corinthians "in a while."

We live in a world where everyone always wants to get in the last word. We even see this quite often on the Puritan Board. When someone has been called out they usually want to get the last word in to protect their honor or whatever. God bless you Brother Ivan for having the humility to not respond to this unnecessary comment. Your humbleness is an example to us all.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 24, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Wcf
> ...



For the PC(USA)er's here this is sound advice. However if we truly believe in a confessional Church how much is too much?


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

That almost made me cry. What are they doing to those people? Instead of pointing them to salvation, they are telling them that damnation is salvation.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 24, 2008)

I pray nearly continuously for the church of my birth, not for its sake but for the souls of the blue hairs who are being deceived by smooth talkers and flatterers.


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## fredtgreco (Jun 24, 2008)

Zenas said:


> That almost made me cry. What are they doing to those people? Instead of pointing them to salvation, they are telling them that damnation is salvation.



Andrew,

I think this is the result of them being more and more desperate. More and more congregations (especially the large, viable and more prosperous ones) are leaving/have left for the EPC. The powers that be can see the lights being shut off. It is not pretty.

A relative of mine's church left a little bit ago, The said nothing, voted and filed an injunction. The Presbytery expressed their "shock and sorrow" that the church did not "dailog" with them first. I had to laugh, since PCUSA "dialog" involves lawyers, bribes and threats!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 24, 2008)

I was at a local PC(USA) church considering leaving and they held a "informational meeting" where representatives of the Presbytery came and spoke. It was the most depressing thing I have ever seen. It was like watching a High School break-up right before my eyes. The reasons the Presbytery gave for staying was analogous to a spurned lover. It was sad, almost like watching a suicide take place.


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## kvanlaan (Jun 24, 2008)

At first I thought "Synagogues of Satan" was rather harsh terminology. 

Then I read the links that Pastor Greco posted and it seemed quite reasonable.


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> Ron said:
> 
> 
> > Ivan said:
> ...



What in the world are you talking about? My comment was most appropriate. Are we now going to reject the trinitarian baptism of the PCUSA? Are all the denomination's congregations non-Christian? What does it mean that the demonination is non-Christian after all? At what precise point in time did this verdict occur from God (or his church). Certainly you should know this answer given your support of Ivan's dogmatic assertion. Tell me, are the doctrinally sound congregations in that denomination non-Christian? 

Your last paragraph is amusingly ironic. 

Ron


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> I missed the sodomite marriages... I seem to recall Paul telling them that such WERE some of you....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, there are indeed wolves in sheep's clothing. Now what is the syllogism that concludes that the denomination is non-Christian and how are the premises that are pumped into the syllogism justified? In a word, somebody actually argue something with precision. I already comprehend the assertion. 

As a separate matter - so don't confuse the two - if a denomination is not Christian, then we are not to accept the profession of faith of anyone within that denomination. So for instance, if a member of the Mormon "church" confessed Christ in an orthodox, Reformed manner, the profession would have to be rejected. The reason being, all Christians are to be found within the _visible _church. 

Ron


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

I think there's a misunderstanding here. 

Grymir is a member of a PCUSA church, and I don't think Pastor Ivan was implying that he is somehow not a brother. 

There is a disconnect in your thinking between a corporate organization and each of its individual entities. In proclaiming that the corporate representation of the PCUSA, i.e. the General Assembly et al has left the faith of the one true Lord Christ, he is not claiming that each individual integral part is in absolute agreement with the majority and therefor deserving of the same label. 

Pastor Ivan's comment was a condemnation of the general attitude in the PCUSA. Certainly there are those in the minority or those being decieved that don't fall within the condemnation, but those who make up the visible leadership certainly are. 

Shalom dood.


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

Ron said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > I missed the sodomite marriages... I seem to recall Paul telling them that such WERE some of you....
> ...



You don't seem to comprehend the assertion as you appear to be fighting with a straw-man.


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## Grymir (Jun 24, 2008)

Ivan's assessment is correct. The General Assembly has been apostate for awhile, along with alot of local church's. But it's what my local church teaches that matters. They are speaking out and holding the line against such things. When they cease doing that, then leaving becomes an issue. I have knowledge, but what about the newcommer? That is the question I must answer.


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Zenas said:


> I think there's a misunderstanding here.
> 
> Grymir is a member of a PCUSA church, and I don't think Pastor Ivan was implying that he is somehow not a brother.
> 
> ...



Zenas,

Your exegesis of Ivan's literal words is incorrect. 

1. He affirmed that the PC(USA) cannot be considered a Christian denomination. 

2. If that is true, then those who belong to the PC(USA) cannot be considered being members of a Christian denomination. 

3. Therefore,, all members of the PC(USA) must be considered outside the visible church since there can be no Christian churches inside a non-Christian denomination; unless of course there can be Christian churches inside non-Christian denominations, but that would leave room for Christian churches inside the JW and Mormon denominations. 

All I've done is taken Ivan's bald assertion and taken it to its necessary conclusion. If you want to discuss, then be prepared to do so with pure logic given the premises. 

Ron


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## Barnpreacher (Jun 24, 2008)

Ron said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> > Ron said:
> ...



Brother,

If you didn't agree with Ivan's statement then say you didn't agree with it. Don't make rather large assumptions about whether or not he has read a certain book of the Bible. That was an insult and I think if you re-read it you'll agree. If you thought Ivan was making a large assumption in what he said then you should have stated it in a less insulting manner. Show a little respect.


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

Ron said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > I think there's a misunderstanding here.
> ...



Ron, 

Please, for my edification, make your case that for one to be a member of a church within the visible church, they must be a member of a presently Christian denomination. 

Nota bene: An apostate denomination such as the PCUSA and the JW or Mormon cults are two different things. The PCUSA began as a Christian denomination but the *majority* of which has subsequently left the faith. The JWs and Mormons were never Christian denominations.

I wish you the best of providence in your quest.

Furthermore, the denotation of "literal" seems to be your Benedict Arnold. My examination was to flesh out the intent of Pastor Ivan's words, as should be anyone's aim when reading what another says. Dogmatically constraining someone's words to your own strict meaning and interpretation precludes the intentions of the author. This, in turn, produces, as I pointed out earlier, a straw-man.

"Semper ubi sub ubi."

If you apply your approach consistently, then a translation of the foregoing phrase would be non-sensical. If you examine my intent, you would see it would be to make a silly pun.


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> Ron said:
> 
> 
> > Barnpreacher said:
> ...



Ivan placed his _personal_ anathema on an _entire _denomination. Would it have been better if I had written that Ivan has not internalized one of the implications of 1 Corinthians, rather than asking whether he's read it recently? Please, give me a break.

Ron


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Ron said:
> 
> 
> > Zenas said:
> ...



If you would put forth a syllogism that I can deal with, I'll try. So far all I have to deal with is that _you_ believe that the "majority" of congregations within the PC(USA) have left the Christian faith, yet you have neglected to define the Christian faith or demonstrated that a majority leaving the Christian faith within a denomination makes the entire denomination non-Christian. You have also raised a distinction between starting as an apostate denomination and ending up as one, yet you have not argued the relevance of such a distinction. I'm a logician, not a mind-reader.

Ron


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

Can you please give an example of one whom has started an apostate denomination?

Implicit within the meaning of apostate is the notion of a former fidelity. If one has been unfaithful from the start, then it defies reason that they could have apostated from a non-existant fidelity.


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## Ron (Jun 24, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Can you please give an example of one whom has started an apostate denomination?
> 
> Implicit within the meaning of apostate is the notion of a former fidelity. If one has been unfaithful from the start, then it defies reason that they could have apostated from a non-existant fidelity.



Zenas,

I'm waiting for an argument, which means I'm waiting for a series of premises whereby the conclusion follows w/ necessity from the premises. Are you prepared to argue a point or just make more disjointed assertions?

Cheers,

Ron


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## Zenas (Jun 24, 2008)

Ron,

You win. You can print out your award tomorrow. As for myself, I find this utterly useless. Pastor Ivan has retired and seen no need to defend the obvious, and niether shall I waste word doing it either.


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## Archlute (Jun 24, 2008)

Hey Ron, 

You might also want to include Fred's comments and links in your discussion, as it was not only Ivan who made the assertion that the PCUSA is no longer worthy of being considered a Christian denomination.


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## BJClark (Jun 25, 2008)

With comments and speakers like this..it makes me wonder why so many believers stay within this denomination. Are people that emotionally attached to a denomination that they can not fathom leaving? Should they not be more attached to Christ than to a 'name on a church building'?

When my grandmother left the PC(USA) church she had attended the majority of her life...I was sad she had to make that choice, but elated she did. 

Sometimes we must make a difficult choice, do we stand for the unwavering word of God or the wavering words of men? I understand some within the PC(USA) are trying to push closed the flood gates that have been opened, but only God can do that, it would seem best to see them die than to see the leaders continually lead more on the path to hell.



> Why did male church leaders in the 10th century introduce the ideas of sin, guilt and the need for atonement? According to Brock, they did it in order to exercise power over people. Making people feel guilty and then offering them a release from that guilt is a form of manipulation and control, she said. The masses were duped into depending on church leaders and their sacrificial Jesus rituals.
> 
> "Another Christianity is possible," said Brock. "We already live on holy ground. It does not belong to any individual, not even to God … We actualize it when struggling for justice in community."



Cross-less Christianity promoted - 6/21/08


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## VictorBravo (Jun 25, 2008)

BJClark said:


> With comments and speakers like this..it makes me wonder why so many believers stay within this denomination. Are people that emotionally attached to a denomination that they can not fathom leaving? Should they not be more attached to Christ than to a 'name on a church building'?
> 
> When my grandmother left the PC(USA) church she had attended the majority of her life...I was sad she had to make that choice, but elated she did.
> 
> ...



Bobbi, I agree. That quote is sick, sad, and pathetic. My heart breaks for the poor laymen and few pastors who continue a losing battle.

.............................


The thread is done. Sometimes comments are just comments. Not everything requires "exegesis."


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