# “Perfect your baptism!”



## Scott Bushey (Apr 13, 2018)

When we say “Perfect your baptism”, to our covenant children, practically speaking, what exactly are u expecting your child to do in response to the charge?


----------



## earl40 (Apr 13, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> When we say “Perfect your baptism”, to our covenant children, practically speaking, what exactly are u expecting your child to do in response to the charge?



Act as a Christian should.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

How can one truly ask their child to 'perfect their baptism' if they remain in the flesh?


----------



## Jeri Tanner (Apr 17, 2018)

Is this an alternative way of saying “improve your baptism”? (WLC q. 167).


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

Jerri,
It is. However, the typical is to 'improve' upon, as u pointed out. Can an unregenerate child improve or perfect their baptism?


----------



## Jeri Tanner (Apr 17, 2018)

I think we’d be asking a covenant child to build upon what was given them in baptism (God’s promise) by pursuing that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Possibly there’s a difference between the 17th-18th century concept of ‘improving’ upon something that is already given, and how we might presently think of “perfecting” something. 

An unregenerate child couldn’t do this in a spiritual way that pleases God, of course, but perhaps might seek to behave in a way that comports. The exhortation would be given to all covenant children indiscriminately, since the hope is that they’re spiritually able to do it.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> by pursuing that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.



How can we expect the child to 'pursue' holiness if they are unregenerate?
I see you addressed that point. 



Jeri Tanner said:


> since the hope is that they’re spiritually able to do it.



Would u agree that in essence, to ask out child to 'improve' or perfect their baptism, we are presuming upon regeneration?


----------



## Romans922 (Apr 17, 2018)

To improve upon one's baptism is, for starters, to believe in the promises communicated in baptism.

Reactions: Amen 1


----------



## Jeri Tanner (Apr 17, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> How can we expect the child to 'pursue' holiness if they are unregenerate?
> I see you addressed that point.
> 
> 
> ...


I think so- you know far more about this than I, as you’ve touched on it in posts and I’m a novice, but I’m currently reading the Lewis Schenck book about children in the covenant, mentioned by Cymro a few weeks ago. The presumption of regeneration was a doctrine unfamiliar to me until it was mentioned here on the PB. I’m still trying to grasp it in a way, but I think your point probably is that the Catechism is presuming regeneration in covenant children? And how do passages like Ephesians 6:1 fit in with this?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

Jeri,
U may find Poole and Henry helpful on Eph 1. I don't believe the command to 'obey your parents in the Lord' to rail against my point.


----------



## Jeri Tanner (Apr 17, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Jeri,
> U may find Poole and Henry helpful on Eph 1. I don't believe the command to 'obey your parents in the Lord' to rail against my point.


Yes, my question was really rhetorical, I phrased it weirdly. I’m on board with what you’re getting at, assuming the point of the OP is that the Standards assume presumptive regeneration.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

Romans922 said:


> To improve upon one's baptism is, for starters, to believe in the promises communicated in baptism.



Andrew,
I get that. However, firstly, how can an unregenerate child, believe' in any promise of God and lastly, how can a parent hold any child to this without presuming they are regenerate?


----------



## Romans922 (Apr 18, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Andrew,
> I get that. However, firstly, how can an unregenerate child, believe' in any promise of God and lastly, how can a parent hold any child to this without presuming they are regenerate?


. 

They can’t improve upon their baptism, but that doesn’t mean it is not therefore required of them. The parent ought to be holding this to their child, pleading the believe the Gospel for their life. The parent can do this because there are Gospel blessings guaranteed (if one believes) and curses (if one doesn’t believe).


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 18, 2018)

Romans922 said:


> They can’t improve upon their baptism, but that doesn’t mean it is not therefore required of them.



Agreed. But isn't it a bit presumptuous to tell them to 'improve' if one is not presuming?


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 18, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> When we say “Perfect your baptism”, to our covenant children, practically speaking, what exactly are u expecting your child to do in response to the charge?


They need to have the Lord save them by His grace and mercy, as that would complete the Baptism.


----------



## BGF (Apr 18, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> ...how can a parent hold any child to this without presuming they are regenerate?


I don't presume my children are regenerate. I presume God is faithful.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 18, 2018)

BGF said:


> I don't presume my children are regenerate. I presume God is faithful.


To always save the children of the Covenant promises?


----------



## BGF (Apr 18, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> To always save the children of the Covenant promises?


To save his elect.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 18, 2018)

Hey Brett,
That doesn't really answer my question though....


----------



## BGF (Apr 18, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Hey Brett,
> That doesn't really answer my question though....


You're right, it doesn't. I'm denying the need, or ability even, to *hold* my child to improving his or her baptism as if he or she had the power to do so. Salvation is of the LORD, and sanctification by His Spirit. I teach, exhort, admonish, and discipline my child but it is the LORD who accomplishes his purpose.

Now as to the OP. JG Vos, in his commentary on the Larger Catechism, deals with this question as it relates to Q 167.


> Is the efficacy of baptism limited to the time at which it is administered? Certainly not. Baptistm is a sign and seal of salvation from sin, and its efficacy continues as long as there remains any sin, or effects of sin, to be saved from. A mistaken notion that the efficacy of baptism is tied to the time of administration of it is the reason for some people's opposition to the baptism of the infants of believers. Since many of the things that baptism stands for or implies cannot be experienced by infants (such as repentance, faith, conscious assurance of salvation, etc.), some people hold that there is no use or meaning in the baptism of infants. But they are greatly mistaken. The efficacy of baptism covers the person's whole life subsequent to his baptism; those baptized as infants are to repent, believe, attain assurance, seek sanctification, etc., when they reach an age at which these experiences are psychologically possible for them. We are born into this world only once, but we celebrate our birthday year after year throughout life; we are baptized only once, but are to remember our baptism and experience its meaning, and work out its implications, year after year throughout life.
> 
> Johannes Geerhardus Vos. Westminster Larger Catechism: A Commentary (Kindle Locations 6401-6409). Kindle Edition.


It's interesting that in treating improving baptism as it relates to infants, Vos points us to the efficacy of baptism and how it is not necessarily tied to the moment of administration. This is treated in the Westminster Confession of Faith Ch. 28-6.


> The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.


There is no need to presume anything about my child. baptism can be improved on regardless. If unregenerate and unrepentant, improve upon it by repenting. If regenerate and repentant, improve upon it in the ways outlined in the LC.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Apr 19, 2018)

My cat agrees one should purrrfect ones Baptism. Like other cats she prefers a sprinkling. She disagrees with a dogs preference of a full immersion. Further, she believes that the Baptist conviction not to baptise children of believers is a cat-astrophic view


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 19, 2018)

BGF said:


> You're right, it doesn't. I'm denying the need, or ability even, to *hold* my child to improving his or her baptism as if he or she had the power to do so. Salvation is of the LORD, and sanctification by His Spirit. I teach, exhort, admonish, and discipline my child but it is the LORD who accomplishes his purpose.
> 
> Now as to the OP. JG Vos, in his commentary on the Larger Catechism, deals with this question as it relates to Q 167.
> 
> ...


Are you stating here that there is real grace administered during the sacrament unto the baptized infant, that is effectual, and that they will come to a saving faith in Jesus?


----------



## BGF (Apr 19, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Are you stating here that there is real grace administered during the sacrament unto the baptized infant, that is effectual, and that they will come to a saving faith in Jesus?


I should have linked or posted the WCF reference above. That will give you my answer. Here it is below.


> The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in his appointed time.


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 19, 2018)

BGF said:


> I should have linked or posted the WCF reference above. That will give you my answer. Here it is below.


I am reading that as meaning that the Baptism is effectual to those who are the elect of the Lord, so until that time of regeneration/faith in Jesus, it would not be availing them?


----------



## Ben Mordecai (Apr 19, 2018)

Baptism is a sign of and seal of the righteousness received by faith. Therefore, the covenant child has a responsibility to join that covenant promise with a personal faith as we should rightly expect of any person whom God has called into his visible community. Likewise, anyone who is exhibits a personal faith receives the whole Christ in both his justifying and sanctifying gifts. The justifying at the instant of faith, and the sanctifying in an ongoing fashion as the believer grows through the use of the means by the Spirit to mortify the flesh and vivify the spiritual man. 

I could be wrong, but I would not consider "improving" or "perfecting" ones baptism to be appropriate language to describe works of obedience. It implies that our salvation is improved by works, implying our own additions to our salvation. 

If someone said, "improve your baptism" to a covenant child I would assume they meant to express personal faith that Jesus is their own savior. However, I think it's probably not useful to use this terminology at all since it would require so much unpacking that you could teach a covenant child more directly by just teaching what you would have unpacked.

We, of course, should teach covenant children (and all children) God's law for their instruction and conviction, but I would not tie this to their baptisms.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Apr 19, 2018)

Ben,
The term is highly Reformed. For example:


The Larger Catechism of the Westminster Standards (1648)

Q. 167. _How is baptism to be improved by us?_
A. The needful but much neglected duty of improving our baptism, is to be performed by us all our life long, especially in the time of temptation, and when we are present at the administration of it to others; by serious and thankful consideration of the nature of it, and of the ends for which Christ instituted it, the privileges and benefits conferred and sealed thereby, and our solemn vow made therein; by being humbled for our sinful defilement, our falling short of, and walking contrary to, the grace of baptism, and our engagements; by growing up to assurance of pardon of sin, and of all other blessings sealed to us in that sacrament; by drawing strength from the death and resurrection of Christ, into whom we are baptized, for the mortifying of sin, and quickening of grace; and by endeavoring to live by faith, to have our conversation in holiness and righteousness, as those that have therein given up their names to Christ; and to walk in brotherly love, as being baptized by the same Spirit into one body.

http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=544

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ben Mordecai (Apr 19, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Ben,
> The term is highly Reformed. For example:
> 
> 
> ...


I knew it sounded familiar. I think the catechism said it better than I could. The catechism seems to be speaking of employing the sacrament to the service of walking by faith.


----------



## Cymro (Apr 20, 2018)

We have to consider age limitations and the ability to comprehend parental guidance and instruction. The father being a priest in his own house, is party to that “improving.”
His duty, obligation and responsibility is to minister that which is needful whether teaching, discipline or example. He is not God and therefore the true state of the child is not within his domain. He has to obey what the Lord has told him to do, and also to exercise faith in the covenant promise.
God has commanded him after this fashion ,Deut 6:6-7, “these words thou shalt teach DILIGENTLY unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down ,and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them on thy hand etc.” This contains formal teaching, informal, and personal example. And example is necessary as children are master imitators and are quick to pick up inconsistencies.
We are to be watchful over any sprouting of corruption and lovingly discipline if necessary, and point out how they can practise a better way consistent with their status as covenant children. But also to lovingly cultivate signs of spiritual promise, and encourage those evidences.
I think there is a general laxity amongst us paedobaptists in leaving children to find their own spiritual level, whereas in education we do not tolerate that. If we are concerned about our children’s eternity and the possible danger that can befall them, we ought to travail in love for them. As the text above teaches, there must be a manageable diet of the word of God according to their age, for it is the incorruptible word that is used to save a soul. Thy word is truth, sanctify them by thy truth. We have the means, train up the child in the way that he should go. That is the way to improve the child’s baptism, as its response will be its participation in the improving. Children are to be reminded regularly (as we ourselves) what their baptism means , its privileges and responsibilities, and we as parents tie God’s hands with His promise.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 20, 2018)

Ben Mordecai said:


> Baptism is a sign of and seal of the righteousness received by faith. Therefore, the covenant child has a responsibility to join that covenant promise with a personal faith as we should rightly expect of any person whom God has called into his visible community. Likewise, anyone who is exhibits a personal faith receives the whole Christ in both his justifying and sanctifying gifts. The justifying at the instant of faith, and the sanctifying in an ongoing fashion as the believer grows through the use of the means by the Spirit to mortify the flesh and vivify the spiritual man.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I would not consider "improving" or "perfecting" ones baptism to be appropriate language to describe works of obedience. It implies that our salvation is improved by works, implying our own additions to our salvation.
> 
> ...


Would one not say"to make the Baptism a valid one?"


----------



## Dachaser (Apr 20, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Ben,
> The term is highly Reformed. For example:
> 
> 
> ...


The way that it word seems to be presuming that the baptized baby will be getting saved later on, as part of the blessing of the Sacrament.


----------

