# What Influences American Presbyterianism?



## jwithnell (Jul 1, 2009)

A discussion regarding children in worship prompted me to start a new thread on something that's been on the back of my mind lately: among Presbyterians, there sometimes seems to be a continuing influence based upon your reformed heritage in Europe. 

I have been a little surprised at times to find folks who seem somewhat suspicious of early American Presbyterianism/congregationalism -- even to the point of being somewhat derogatory. Those expressing these views seemed to have mentors that were greatly influenced by the Dutch Reformers.

When I look at my bookshelves, I see works from the American Puritans, the Dutch, the English ... a very eclectic approach. Is this not the norm? Have any of you observed any sub-groupings based upon national origin?


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## Wayne (Jul 1, 2009)

Interesting question.

I guess it turns that question on its head to observe that one of the reasons for OPC split (back when it was still the Presbyterian Church *of* America), was that McIntire, Buswell and others saw an undue Dutch influence that appeared to contravene the American Presbyterian model they wanted to preserve. 

Specifically, the Dutch influence was by way of Van Til, Kuiper and Stonehouse predominantly. And a big part of that "evil Dutch influence" was the attitude towards beverage alcohol, that it was permissible so long as one didn't get drunk. McIntire and company by contrast sided with the temperance movement of the 19th century and said that to maintain their testimony, they could not partake.

Amillennialism was the other big Dutch factor, in contrast with the premillennialism that was dominant among Presbyterians late in the 19th century (and thus why dispensationalism made such inroads).

But as I said, that's entirely opposite from what you've observed. Can you tell us more without naming names?


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## jwithnell (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm trying to not be too specific, because I have tremendous respect and admiration for the folks I have in mind, all of whom were greatly influenced by the "big three" you mentioned. I've just been puzzled because they are less enthusiastic about what I feel are important New England influences. Actually, your mention of the early OPC split is illuminating. It's possible that folks might still feel like they need to show some affiliation to one group or another. Reading the Muether biography on Van Til was very illuminating just for that reason -- I had sometimes been puzzled why certain people ended up in various camps.


(Actually, some of the anti-alcohol thinking would have come later than the mostly pre-independence era I had in mind when I mention early American Presbyterians -- didn't the alcohol issue come to a head in the 1830s new school/old school split?)


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## Wayne (Jul 2, 2009)

As I understand it, alcoholism was a big problem in the colonial era and following years. The temperance movement began as a solution or means of addressing the problem. And it made tremendous headway, to the point that by the late 19th and early 20th century, your claim to be a Christian was highly doubted if you were not also a tee-totaler. That attitude was found among both conservatives and modernists in those later years.


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## jwithnell (Jul 2, 2009)

That still exists in parts the deep south ... and it seems like the PCA debated the issue (about whether pastors could drink) sometime in the 80s.


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## Scott1 (Jul 2, 2009)

It's pretty understandable, the doctrinal point of the Christian witness not to be one of consuming alcoholic "refresher" beverages.

It has been said alcoholism has been the greatest national sin in our country, historically. Whole towns and villages have been given over to it with death, fights and broken homes and broken lives the testimony to it. So, it is understandable something so badly abused and identified with abuse might be abstained from by Christians.

One of the first things the revivalist crusades of the 1800's did was promote temperance- and it visibly cleaned up a lot of people outwardly and changed life patterns. We would have to say God used it for the good.

This issue still divides some denominations (e.g. BPC). It also appears alcoholism is now increasing again nationally. Certainly its promotion as a sustenance beverage (and crop).

But, in the end, as one who abstains, I must admit Scripture does not require any general abstinence from it. That's hard for me to say in light of its association with so much evil, and the way it causes others to stumble, but it is the hard biblical truth.

So, whether it was the Dutch line or whatever in Presbyterianism that focused on the misuse of it, they were probably closer to the biblical ideal. It seems to me, however, that distinctions such as this are pretty much gone today however, could be wrong, but I really don't see them anymore- maybe a hint in history, but that's all.


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## Josiah (Jul 2, 2009)

> I have been a little surprised at times to find folks who seem somewhat suspicious of early American Presbyterianism/congregationalism -- even to the point of being somewhat derogatory. Those expressing these views seemed to have mentors that were greatly influenced by the Dutch Reformers.



I don't know that I have heard people speak derogatorily of American Presbyterianism, so much as I have heard them critique the establishmentarian mentality inherent in the American mainline Presbyterian churches of the late 19th early 20th century, that they feel led to the liberalism. 

Charles Dennison delivered a series of lectures on OPC history at Mid-America Reformed theological Seminary. In these lectures he touched upon this very issue and gave his own critique of what he called "establishmentarian Presbyterianism". These lectures have been compiled into the book _History For A Pilgrim People_. He also gave a lecture on OPC history 
at the Family Bible Conference of the Presbytery of Norcal which also touch on this issue. If you can get a hold of the tapes/cds from this lecture, I highly recommend listening to them.



> This issue still divides some denominations (e.g. BPC).



I may be wrong but, I believe that ecclesiastical separation would have more to do with current divisions than total abstinence from alcoholic beverages.


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