# Confessional Baptists, or not?



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

In the current baptism thread I made the statement:

"Baptists aren't always as confessional as they state."

Sadly, this is true, even among Reformed Baptists. Independency has many positive aspects. Unfortunately, adherence to our confession is not always one of them. The 1689 London Baptist Confession is a remarkable document. Like the WCF, it's not scripture. Both are man made documents that are faithful commentaries on the major doctrinal positions held by Baptists and Presbyterians. It pains my heart that so many Calvinistic or self proclaimed Reformed Baptists are ignorant of their own confession. There are various reasons as to why this is. Many Baptists on this board were not raised as Calvinists or Reformed Baptists. That is my story. I came to Baptist circles from Roman Catholicism and then to Calvinism nearly twenty years later. Many Bapists still have the remaining vestiges of dispensationalism and Arminian theology. They are hard habits to break. I speak from experience.

I don't claim to be an expert on the 1689 LBC. It is an object of my study and I have found it to be beneficial to my faith. I would urge my Baptist brethren to know the confession they claim to subscribe to. I am not singling any particular Baptist out on this board. This is more of a generalized statement than a specific indictment. It also doesn't stem from a jealousy of the Presbyterian stand on the WCF. I would expect many who have been raised Presbyterian to know the cathecism and the WCF like the back of their hand. Perhaps our Baptist preachers and elders need to know the LBC better. It needs to be part of the lexicon within our churches. I'd also like to see some more posts from Baptists on the LBC. Make it part of our discussion.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (May 23, 2008)

Good point Bill. We spent the better part of last year going through the 1689 in our evening service on the Lord's day.


----------



## wsw201 (May 23, 2008)

> I would expect many who have been raised Presbyterian to know the cathecism and the WCF like the back of their hand.



Then you would be sorely disappointed.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (May 23, 2008)

wsw201 said:


> > I would expect many who have been raised Presbyterian to know the cathecism and the WCF like the back of their hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you would be sorely disappointed.



Sadly, this is true.

I taught 7th-8th grade kids at a fairly large PCA Church a few years ago and, not only did only one of the kids have familiarity with the WSC (an Elder's son), but the other adult helping me really didn't know the WSC at all.

Any time I've been asked to teach children in Presbyterian Churches, I always ditch the GCP curriculum and teach the Catechism.

Sorry to hijack your thread Bill. Carry on you singing Italian Bohemian.


----------



## ADKing (May 23, 2008)

Bill, 

Nice post. The same exhortations can be directed at many of us presbyterians as well! The reformed faith is about far more than a few isolated distinctives--it is the system of truth revealed in the Scriptures. We would all do well to have much more familiarity with the whole system! I just came across this statement in Manton today that goes along with this idea. 

_5. Order is a help to memory. Heads of doctrine are as cells wherein to bestow all things that are heard from the word. He that is well instructed in the principles of religion will most easily and firmly remember divine truths. Methodus est catena memoriae, to link truths one to another, that we may consider them in their proportion. _

Sounds like a good reason to catechize!


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (May 23, 2008)

wsw201 said:


> > I would expect many who have been raised Presbyterian to know the cathecism and the WCF like the back of their hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you would be sorely disappointed.



I was raised in a Presbyterian church, yet only knew one question in the Shorter Catechism by the time I was 18...at which point I actually began to take an interest in Reformed teaching.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (May 23, 2008)

OK Presbyterians. Enough true Confessions that we've got skeletons in our own closet too. 

Let's let the Baptists walk the aisle too.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (May 23, 2008)

Without meaning to add to the list of Presbyterian confessions (not using the word confessions in the sense of theological statements), I remembering reading in JI Packer's Among God's Giants (aka A Quest For Godliness) that although the Shorter Catechism was originally designed for children and the mentally weak, nowadays, knowing the doctrine in it is enough to be considered a great theologian. Says a lot doesn't it?


----------



## KMK (May 23, 2008)

At our church only the Pastor (me) officially subscribe to the LBC but I often place relevant exerpts in the sermon notes which are in the bulletin. 

I agree with Bill that it is a wonderful document and I doubt I will ever mine all of the treasures therein. I do not understand its disdain among contemporary Baptists.

Perhaps it is just history reliving itself:



> Isa 28:9,10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:



I must say that the LBC is a cause I am proud to champion. Forget Purpose Driven, spiritual gifts tests, Seeker Sensitive worship etc. If we are going to impact our society with any man-made program, let it be the LBC!

BTW, Bill, nice avatar!


----------



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC. 

Baptists: can you please come out of the woodwork? I mean it, you guys are like a bunch of prairie dogs, ducking your head quick when you hear incoming fire.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 23, 2008)

From a Presbyterian: Sam Waldron's exposition of the 1689 LBCF is very much worth reading.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (May 23, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> From a Presbyterian: Sam Waldron's exposition of the 1689 LBCF is very much worth reading.


----------



## Kim G (May 23, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> Baptists: can you please come out of the woodwork? I mean it, you guys are like a bunch of prairie dogs, ducking your head quick when you hear incoming fire.



How's this for bravery? I'd never heard of the LBC until I came to this site.  I had to read it before I joined just to make sure I agreed  I knew of the WCF from my Presbyterian friends. Since then, I've become much more interested in creeds, confessions, catechisms, etc. I'd like to teach them to my children someday (when I have them).


----------



## DMcFadden (May 23, 2008)

KMK said:


> I agree with Bill that it is a wonderful document and I doubt I will ever mine all of the treasures therein. I do not understand its disdain among contemporary Baptists.
> 
> I must say that the LBC is a cause I am proud to champion. Forget Purpose Driven, spiritual gifts tests, Seeker Sensitive worship etc. If we are going to impact our society with any man-made program, let it be the LBC!






I "confess" (there you are Rich) that as a lifelong Baptist, my first reading of the 1689 came in connection with my pilgrimage from 4-pt to 5-pt Calvinism and separation from a mainline denomination just a few years ago. Being "well read" in theology and biblical studies does not always translate into knowing ANYthing about Baptist history. The pernicious legacy of independency caused many of us to think of ourselves as "evangelicals who happen to attend a Baptist church," even when we were the pastors of them teaching membership classes!!! In my experience, SBC folks really cherish that Baptist moniker. However, conservatives in the ABC like me were often so ashamed of the association that we ran as fast as we could to common evangelical convictions and, other than baptism, pretty much ignored "Baptist" identity. "Don't call ME a Baptist, I'm an evangelical."

With Bill, it is my present conviction that without confessional integrity we will be prone to stray to the right or the left. 

This morning, one of my management employees (a Baptist minister's wife with a MBA) got into a conversation with me about evangelical Christian colleges. My contention was that without a confessional boundary, they will either tend towards the polarity of Joel Osteen and subjective experientialism run amuck or they will drift into heresy, spon fed by the "evangelical" profs with their newly minted secular terminal degrees. Here in So. Cal, for example, I know of one large Christian college that has pretty much embraced the egalitarian line, destructive critical assumptions, and tolerance for a number of post-modern heresies.

No, Marty and Scott, I'm not anti-intellectual. We need the highest level of academic prep for our seminary profs. However, recently we have witnessed again how difficult it is for even our confessional brethren to stick to the Bible and how easily they go "off the reservation." Since most of the evangelical liberal arts colleges don't even have a confessional boundary, the potential for straying is markedly increased.

It is always possible that running away from the fires of the mainline so recently, I still smell the smoke on my clothes everywhere and wrongly assume that a confessional solution will "fix" the problem. However, in my opinion (after more than a half century of church involvement), Baptists without a confessional subscription will be rank liberals in a short period of time.


----------



## VictorBravo (May 23, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.
> 
> Baptists: can you please come out of the woodwork? I mean it, you guys are like a bunch of prairie dogs, ducking your head quick when you hear incoming fire.



Sorry Bill, I was busy reading the LBC and I didn't realize you were asking for input. 

I carry it around in my briefcase, right next to my Greek NT and my ASV Bible. (When I'm feeling ambitious, I lug around my Greek/Hebrew leather bound Biblia Sacra too ). I also carry a WCF and the shorter catechism--they fit nicely in deposition folders. Makes for good reading during times I have to wait.

My wife and I read it thoroughly several years ago before we sought membership in our church. Unlike what I understand is Presbyterian practice, members subscribe as well as the elders. We were happy to.


----------



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

victorbravo said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.
> ...



Vic, you're certainly no prairie dog!


----------



## VictorBravo (May 23, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> Vic, you're certainly no prairie dog!



No, but I have been a gofer.


----------



## Pilgrim (May 23, 2008)

Presbyterians aren't always that confessional either.  

I've found that often new members here from Baptist or other backgrounds who haven't been exposed to many (if any) Presbyterian churches simply assume that the views represented here on the PB, EP included, are representative of what you'll find in the average PCA church.


----------



## danmpem (May 23, 2008)

Kim G said:


> How's this for bravery? I'd never heard of the LBC until I came to this site.



Same here. And I've been a Baptist for as long as I've been a Christian, since 2002.


----------



## py3ak (May 23, 2008)

An interesting and very applicable article can be found in W.G.T. Shedd's _Theological Essays_ entitled _Symbols and Congregationalism_. Since those holding to the congregational principle that as much as possible ought to be dealt with by individual congregations don't have the tight structure of a Presbyterian church, it is all the more necessary for them freely and intelligently to adopt an excellent system of doctrine, like the Savoy Declaration.


----------



## Kevin Lewis (May 23, 2008)

*LBCF 1689 Practice*



North Jersey Baptist said:


> My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.
> 
> Baptists: can you please come out of the woodwork? I mean it, you guys are like a bunch of prairie dogs, ducking your head quick when you hear incoming fire.



Bill,

I have studied through the LBCF (using Sam Waldron's book), along with the WCF, and the Philadelphia CF of 1742 (which I found myself to not be in agreement with). I agree, the LBCF is an excellent document like the WCF and we need to study it more.
One of the things I think is interesting about confessions and have discussed with another elder in our church is - it would make more sense to state the Bible passages first (the absolute truths we see in scripture) and then state the confessional stance. In some ways, confessions seem backwards to me.


----------



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

Ruben, the Savoy Declaration is helpful in congregational polity although it's position on Baptism would separate it from the LBC. Congregationalism does not necessarily mean that doctrine should differ greatly from church to church. The framers of the LBC obviously were like-minded. Reformed Baptist churches need to find a way of committing to confessionalism, which can work in Baptist polity.


----------



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

There are also Calvinistic Baptist churches that are not confessional because they are still deep in the dispensational camp. While I rejoice at their acceptance of the doctrines of grace, they are irreparably flawed because of their dispensationalism. I grieve for my Baptist brethren who find themselves in a church like this with no alternative.


----------



## Herald (May 23, 2008)

My preaching schedule for 2008 is already established (June-July; Daniel 1-6. November-December; Daniel 7-12). I am considering teaching on the LBC either from the pulpit or in the adult mid-week bible study in 2009.


----------



## py3ak (May 23, 2008)

Bill, I was briefly summarizing Shedd's article, not trying to suggest that Baptists throw over the 1689 for the Savoy! Shedd's argument about how his own denomination (the Congregationalists) needed a firm confessional basis even more than the Presbyterian church would largely carry over into the Baptist milieu as well (he says something peculiar to their location and hegemony in New England which would not apply to the majority of Baptist churches).


----------



## JM (May 23, 2008)

I was surprised how confessional the local LCMS [Lutheran] Church was. When I first became a Christian I visited a Lutheran Church and before I left they tried to get me a copy of the Book of Concord, they didn't have any left for the public but they did have Luther's Small Catechism and gave it to me free of charge. It was a nice hard cover edition to boot.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 23, 2008)

but I am actual a fan of Luther's small and large catechism. They were quite helpful to me. I read them and got to know them decently during my flirtation with LCMS affiliation a year or so ago (I had even applied to Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, IN).


----------



## KMK (May 23, 2008)

victorbravo said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.
> ...



Vic, is your church a member of ARBCA?


----------



## VictorBravo (May 24, 2008)

KMK said:


> Vic, is your church a member of ARBCA?



Yes.


----------



## Pilgrim (May 24, 2008)

Reformed-Kermit said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > My Presbyterian brothers: thank you for your refreshing honesty. I was trying to be complimentary towards you. The WCF is a wonderful document and has done much good for the sake of Christ's church, as has the LBC.
> ...



What objections do you have to the Phila. Confession? I have to confess that I haven't studied it. My understanding is that it was based on the 2nd LBCF (1689) with some additional chapters and maybe a few other modifications.


----------



## Ivan (May 24, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> Reformed-Kermit said:
> 
> 
> > North Jersey Baptist said:
> ...



I think the Philadelphia Confession is a good one. It's the first calvinistic document I read. The Baptist Faith and Message came down from it, watered down, but that's where it came from.

It just dawned on me that in mid-July this year I will have been a Baptist (and a Christian) for forty years. My spiritual re-birthday was on July 15, 1968.


----------

