# Paul Washer mentions 20 percent of conservative reformed congregants saved



## A.Joseph

I really appreciate Paul Washer. I think he does a good job of establishing a dividing line between the convicted sinner and the almost saved.... He's made me reevaluate everything. 
Have I been just merely inconsistent and unproductive in my walk and devotion? or merely fooling myself? These are the things I've been asking myself. But the real answer might be that I'm asking the wrong questions. Maybe if I stop making it about me, I would be the kind of Christian Paul Washer recommends we are to be, God willing....
Anyway, not sure I reference the quote 100% in the title of this thread. But this is a pretty powerful message:


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## Ryan&Amber2013

I have really enjoyed him in the past, but sometimes he says things that seem to be meant as a shock factor, that may not be true. For example, saying 20 percent of the reformed are saved seems like a blanket sweeping judgment that is uncalled for. I think more charity would be fitting rather than a shocking unverifiable statement. But overall I've really been blessed by him!

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## JTB.SDG

I used to think differently, but studying through the differences between the OT and the NT, I no longer believe it's the "remnant" in the church that are saved in the NT. I believe Scripture teaches that is one of the differences in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31). Then it was the remnant, but now it's the majority.

I like Paul Washer. We need his teaching on the nature and necessity of regeneration. But we also need the comforts of grace for God's people.

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## Bill The Baptist

What precisely does it mean to be “almost saved?” You are either saved or you’re not. I also appreciate Washer, but at times he seems to flirt awfully close to denying sola fide.

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## RamistThomist

I would ask how he knows that? Of course, he can't know that. He hasn't surveyed every Reformed congregation (further, that raises the question if baptists are Reformed).

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## Steve Curtis

Bill The Baptist said:


> What precisely does it mean to be “almost saved?”



When I read this, I thought of Matthew Mead's work, The Almost Christian Discovered. I would charitably assume that Paul Washer is dealing with the same idea (though I haven't listened to the whole sermon).


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## A.Joseph

I guess what we put away and what we embrace in response to the work of the spirit and conviction of sin and devotion to Jesus as Lord and Savior

....is God truly central? in my case, not sure He has been https://www.kevinhalloran.net/characteristics-of-a-true-christian/


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## Ed Walsh

BayouHuguenot said:


> I would ask how he knows that? Of course, he can't know that. He hasn't surveyed every Reformed congregation



Just an FYI
I am not sticking up for Paul's 20% My only point is that your requirement to estimate a percentage saved is not realistic or necessary. Statistics don't work that way. Here's an article by the Scientific American that explains that a sample size of only 1,004 people would represent the views of all adult Americans with just a 3.0% error. Increasing the sample size to 2,000 polled would only slightly improve the results. It has to do with the math that produces bell curve graff showing that expanding a sample size beyond the accepted norm yields a radically reduced change in your results.


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## RamistThomist

That's fair, so I repeat my OP: how does Washer know? He can't.


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## Tom Hart

Ed Walsh said:


> Just an FYI
> I am not sticking up for Paul's 20% My only point is that your requirement to estimate a percentage saved is not realistic or necessary. Statistics don't work that way. Here's an article by the Scientific American that explains that a sample size of only 1,004 people would represent the views of all adult Americans with just a 3.0% error. Increasing the sample size to 2,000 polled would only slightly improve the results. It has to do with the math that produces bell curve graff showing that expanding a sample size beyond the accepted norm yields a radically reduced change in your results.



Would that method apply to the number of those saved in a church? It might work for representing political views or finding out how people like their eggs. I'm no mathematician, though, so feel free to point out where I might be wrong. Of course, we shouldn't even be trying to calculate the number of those who are truly saved. I'd really have to wonder what the criteria would be.

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## RamistThomist

I wonder how much Washer's baptistic ecclesiology plays into this. Only the elect are church members, and since we can visibly identify church members (and presumably those who aren't), then we can know who is saved.


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## Dachaser

A.Joseph said:


> I really appreciate Paul Washer. I think he does a good job of establishing a dividing line between the convicted sinner and the almost saved.... He's made me reevaluate everything.
> Have I been just merely inconsistent and unproductive in my walk and devotion? or merely fooling myself? These are the things I've been asking myself. But the real answer might be that I'm asking the wrong questions. Maybe if I stop making it about me, I would be the kind of Christian Paul Washer recommends we are to be, God willing....
> Anyway, not sure I reference the quote 100% in the title of this thread. But this is a pretty powerful message:


Every time that I have watched him, he seems to be overreacting to the concept of just having an alter call and asking Jesus into your heart, and now am saved and secured forever. He to me tends to be at times too much into the Law and not enough into the grace of God.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> I wonder how much Washer's baptistic ecclesiology plays into this. Only the elect are church members, and since we can visibly identify church members (and presumably those who aren't), then we can know who is saved.


Actually, its that only the elect and saved are really part of the NC, as among church membership are bost lost and saved.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> That's fair, so I repeat my OP: how does Washer know? He can't.


The Bible states that God knows His own, but we cannot know other than ourselves who are really saved or not.


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> The Bible states that God knows His own, but we cannot know other than ourselves who are really saved or not.



Precisely, which is why Washer is so wrong.


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## Scott Bushey

Bill The Baptist said:


> What precisely does it mean to be “almost saved?” You are either saved or you’re not. I also appreciate Washer, but at times he seems to flirt awfully close to denying sola fide.



I would cite 1 Perter 4:18 as a consideration to Washer's comment:


*1 Peter 4:18 *
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


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## Scott Bushey

Dachaser said:


> Actually, its that only the elect and saved are really part of the NC, as among church membership are bost lost and saved.



Actually, the elect are enemies of God until the time when they are regenerated; prior to that, they remain in the external portion of the church and remain under the condemnation of the C of Works.

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## Scott Bushey

BayouHuguenot said:


> That's fair, so I repeat my OP: how does Washer know? He can't.



I would assume he is considering the fact that the road to destruction is wide and the path to heaven, much thinner than we might be led to believe....which is sobering to me. I have been known to say that we can drive a sharp line down the middle of any church we walk into.


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## Dachaser

Scott Bushey said:


> Actually, the elect are enemies of God until the time when they are regenerated; prior to that, they remain in the external portion of the church and remain under the condemnation of the C of Works.


Once saved, there would still be lost and saved in the Church memebership ranks, but just saved in the NC.


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## Dachaser

Scott Bushey said:


> I would assume he is considering the fact that the road to destruction is wide and the path to heaven, much thinner than we might be led to believe....which is sobering to me. I have been known to say that we can drive a sharp line down the middle of any church we walk into.


Should be a much higher percentage of the saved among those attending a church then those outside in the world though.


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## SolaScriptura

You guys... 

Paul is employing rhetorical hyperbole. His point is, "there are many in our churches who think they're saved, and they aren't." Don't strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Sheesh.

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## Taylor

I appreciate Washer, and I believe his preaching (specifically, his “Shocking Youth Measage” of 2002) was the primary instrument God used to save me. I will never deny that. However, sometimes he says things that make me wonder why he said them and to what end they were intended, like the one time he seemed (to me) to rail against superhero movies because they are fictitious.

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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> Once saved, there would still be lost and saved in the Church memebership ranks, but just saved in the NC.


 Are you saying there can be "saved and lost" under the category of "once saved"?


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## RamistThomist

https://babylonbee.com/news/in-lieu...ares-at-congregation-for-43-straight-minutes/


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## Ed Walsh

Tom Hart said:


> Of course, we shouldn't even be trying to calculate the number of those who are truly saved. I'd really have to wonder what the criteria would be.



I was trained and served as an elder in the OPC for years. I wouldn't dare consider a project of judging between true and false sheep. When God said to Samuel, "for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart," (1 Samuel 16:7b) this was not so much a rebuke of Samuel, but, rather a statement of what is the case. Man is limited to outward appearance, i.e., a profession of faith. And since we can't see the heart, it would be sinful to try to do so. This truth was perhaps the most essential lesson I learned as an elder.

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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> Are you saying there can be "saved and lost" under the category of "once saved"?


The person would be saved, and there would be both saved and lost among the church membership roles


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## Alan D. Strange

Is Brother Washer right to teach "everybody talking about heaven ain't going there?" Yes, God's Word makes this point. Is he right to challenge listeners as to whether they are truly resting and trusting in Christ? Yes, the Bible does the same. How about marks of a true Christian and grounds of assurance? Yes, again, Scriptures do.

But listen to this sermon (and almost all of his) and you'll hear much talk about the expressions of particular emotions (weeping, especially) as being expected, if not necessary, for true Christians. He needs carefully to read Edwards's _Religious Affections_ and see the distinctions that Edwards makes ("affections" aren't emotions _simpliciter_). I cite someone that I know he respects; Washer's discussion of this is far less careful than Edwards's.

In general, for all he does that is good and helpful, this dear brother seems to address the matters of the faith too much through the lens of his own spiritual experience. Thus his reading of Scripture is not sufficiently focused on Christ and the gospel and too much on our apprehension of it (he needs more of an emphasis on _historia salutis_ and a bit less on _ordo salutis_).

This leads him to be less charitable than he should be: he sees the evident shortcomings of Christian professors and concludes that perhaps they are not really Christians. Some are probably not. Others are likely weak Christians. Rather than trying to distinguish he should challenge all, whatever their profession, to trust Christ and to manifest that trust in a life of obedience. It's a little too easy, and too easy on preachers, to conclude that all who may seriously struggle are probably not Christians.

As I said, this is a bit too facile and is not in accord with the historic Reformed view of the _iudicium caritatis _(the judgment of charity)_:_ I accept your orthodox profession and outward obedience, requiring neither particular religious experience nor a narrative of grace relating such. I am not saying that Paul Washer requires such explicitly, yet he speaks so much of the expression of "religious emotion" and of the details of his own and others' personal religious experience(s) that one might well infer that such is necessary. More could be said, but I'll stop here for now.

Peace,
Alan

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## LilyG

Whatever his intentions, Paul Washer's method of preaching seems to be - find assurance primarily by examining yourself (rather than looking to Christ's work), and beating up consciences without comforting with the gospel.

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## A.Joseph

I've heard Alister Begg make similar distinctions, even my dear former opc pastor ...

I'm not starting this thread to stir up anxiety, but look at all the young, restless and reformed whose correct theology has ultimately left them cold. If we believe in perseverance why are so many falling prey to the spirit of the times? I'm sure there are distinctions between fruitful Christians, Christians who show less fruit but still saved, and those who are merely seeking an insurance policy and see no need for a true and radical change and deliverance from their sin and unbelief ...they are not the least uncomfortable in the midst of unbelievers.
As for myself, it is not till I've been afflicted do I understand how low Jesus truly ranks... My self love just begs for a good chastisement sometimes...
God is good, regardless.


"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair."


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## Dachaser

LilyG said:


> Whatever his intentions, Paul Washer's method of preaching seems to be - find assurance primarily by examining yourself (rather than looking to Christ's work), and beating up consciences without comforting with the gospel.


We will never have a full assurance of our salvation though if we look at us and not upon the Cross.


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## Dachaser

A.Joseph said:


> I've heard Alister Begg make similar distinctions, even my dear former opc pastor ...
> 
> I'm not starting this thread to stir up anxiety, but look at all the young, restless and reformed whose correct theology has ultimately left them cold. If we believe in perseverance why are so many falling prey to the spirit of the times? I'm sure there are distinctions between fruitful Christians, Christians who show less fruit but still saved, and those who are merely seeking an insurance policy and see no need for a true and radical change and deliverance from their sin and unbelief ...they are not the least uncomfortable in the midst of unbelievers.
> As for myself, it is not till I've been afflicted do I understand how low Jesus truly ranks... My self love just begs for a good chastisement sometimes


One big problem today is that many Christian know a lot of theology, but do not apply it and incorporate into their lives.


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## Dachaser

Alan D. Strange said:


> Is Brother Washer right to teach "everybody talking about heaven ain't going there?" Yes, God's Word makes this point. Is he right to challenge listeners as to whether they are truly resting and trusting in Christ? Yes, the Bible does the same. How about marks of a true Christian and grounds of assurance? Yes, again, Scriptures do.
> 
> But listen to this sermon (and almost all of his) and you'll hear much talk about the expressions of particular emotions (weeping, especially) as being expected, if not necessary, for true Christians. He needs carefully to read Edwards's _Religious Affections_ and see the distinctions that Edwards makes ("affections" aren't emotions _simpliciter_). I cite someone that I know he respects; Washer's discussion of this is far less careful than Edwards's.
> 
> In general, for all he does that is good and helpful, this dear brother seems to address the matters of the faith too much through the lens of his own spiritual experience. Thus his reading of Scripture is not sufficiently focused on Christ and the gospel and too much on our apprehension of it (he needs more of an emphasis on _historia salutis_ and a bit less on _ordo salutis_).
> 
> This leads him to be less charitable than he should be: he sees the evident shortcomings of Christian professors and concludes that perhaps they are not really Christians. Some are probably not. Others are likely weak Christians. Rather than trying to distinguish he should challenge all, whatever their profession, to trust Christ and to manifest that trust in a life of obedience. It's a little too easy, and too easy on preachers, to conclude that all who may seriously struggle are probably not Christians.
> 
> As I said, this is a bit too facile and is not in accord with the historic Reformed view of the _iudicium caritatis:_ I accept your orthodox profession and outward obedience, requiring neither particular religious experience nor a narrative of grace relating such. I am not saying that Paul Washer requires such explicitly, yet he speaks so much of the expression of "religious emotion" and of the details of his own and others' personal religious experience(s) that one might well infer that such is necessary. More could be said, but I'll stop here for now.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan


Most of how we respond to the Lord and His salvation to us would be based upon our own personality types, as I can see Jeremiah as the weeping Prophet, but also saw John as son of thunder, so all of us will react differently when saved by God.


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## Alan D. Strange

A.Joseph said:


> I've heard Alister Begg make similar distinctions, even my dear former opc pastor ...



I am uncertain, brother, whether you are responding to me or not. My post started with recognizing proper distinctions. I do not object to proper calls for self-examination and regularly give them myself, though always urging listeners to take ten looks at Christ for every look at themselves.

The test is not "are you weeping sufficiently?" That might appeal to a rather less secure and mature sort, but that's neither proper milk nor meat for Christian souls. There are ways to properly challenge auditors to the core of their being while also encouraging them in Christ, ways that will not break the bruised reed and quench the smoking flax.

I would encourage you to ask your current pastor what he thinks of all this (including what I've said here).

Peace,
Alan

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## A.Joseph

Alan D. Strange said:


> I am uncertain, brother, whether you are responding to me or not. My post started with recognizing proper distinctions. I do not object to proper calls for self-examination and regularly give them myself, though always urging listeners to take ten looks at Christ for every look at themselves.
> 
> The test is not "are you weeping sufficiently?" That might appeal to a rather less secure and mature sort, but that's neither proper milk nor meat for Christian souls. There are ways to properly challenge auditors to the core of their being while also encouraging them in Christ, ways that will not break the bruised reed and quench the smoking flax.
> 
> I would encourage you to ask your current pastor what he thinks of all this (including what I've said here).
> 
> Peace,
> Alan


No, I agree with you entirely. Those who are concerned are highly unlikely to have much to which they should be concerned.


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## Taylor

On a side note, a friend recently gave me a gift. It was Washer's book on assurance which he recently published through Reformation Heritage. I was actually sort of shocked that he wrote a book on assurance since, in my experience, Brother Washer's ministry has been so famous because he takes away all assurance in every sermon. (I know this is an exaggeration, but you all get my drift, I’m sure.)

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## Dachaser

Taylor Sexton said:


> On a side note, a friend recently gave me a gift. It was Washer's book on assurance which he recently published through Reformation Heritage. I was actually sort of shocked that he wrote a book on assurance since, in my experience, Brother Washer's ministry has been so famous because he takes away all assurance in every sermon. (I know this is an exaggeration, but you all get my drift, I’m sure.)


What does he root our full assurance of salvation into though? As he seems to be into confidence based upon our behavior, and not based upon the finished work of Christ in our stead.


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## RamistThomist

What about those of us who are from Scottish or Dutch backgrounds, and do not often show emotion?

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## Alan D. Strange

BayouHuguenot said:


> What about those of us who are from Scottish or Dutch backgrounds, and do not often show emotion?



Jacob: 

Quite so. There is a danger here of confusing temperament and disposition with godliness or thinking that godliness typically affects the emotions in a certain way. 

I say this to make no excuses for myself, since I am not one lacking in the waterworks department (though this is seen only by those who know me best, as I tend not to manifest such in public). 

We always have to be careful and not make normative what the Lord in His Word does not make normative. 

Peace,
Alan

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## Bill The Baptist

BayouHuguenot said:


> What about those of us who are from Scottish or Dutch backgrounds, and do not often show emotion?



The problem isn’t that Washer seems to require weeping in order to judge someone as converted, the problem is that he is requiring something that Scripture does not, for it does not say that “Abraham weeped and it was accounted to him for righteousness”, it simply says that “Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

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## LilyG

Taylor Sexton said:


> On a side note, a friend recently gave me a gift. It was Washer's book on assurance which he recently published through Reformation Heritage. I was actually sort of shocked that he wrote a book on assurance since, in my experience, Brother Washer's ministry has been so famous because he takes away all assurance in every sermon. (I know this is an exaggeration, but you all get my drift, I’m sure.)



Ha! Oy.


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## Taylor

Alan D. Strange said:


> There is a danger here of confusing temperament and disposition with godliness or thinking that godliness typically affects the emotions in a certain way.



Could this be the residue of American Revivalism in Mr. Washer, staunch Calvinist though he be? (Of course, I fully know that Calvinists historically were not immune to intense revivalistic interests and even obsessions, unfortunately.)


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## ZackF

Taylor Sexton said:


> Could this be the residue of American Revivalism in Mr. Washer, staunch Calvinist though he be? (Of course, I fully know that Calvinists historically were not immune to intense revivalistic interests and even obsessions, unfortunately.)



I don't know where Washer stands personally on drinking but I've found it helpful in discussions on revivalism. If someone forbids the consumption of alcohol for all people at all times it raises a red flag about his moral theology.


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## Tom Hart

ZackF said:


> I don't know where Washer stands personally on drinking but I've found it helpful in discussions on revivalism. If someone forbids the consumption of alcohol for all people at all times it raises a red flag about his moral theology.



This former teetotaller agrees.


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## Abeard

_Thanks for sharing that video brother! 

Reminds me of a quote a heard not to long ago...

"the three greatest wonders of Heaven _will be these: The first will be _to see many people _there whom I _didn’t expect to see. _The second will be _not to find many _church-goers whom I did expect to see. And the third and greatest of all will be _to find myself there_, knowing what I know of the wickedness of my own heart."

John Newton


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## KGP

JTB.SDG said:


> I used to think differently, but studying through the differences between the OT and the NT, I no longer believe it's the "remnant" in the church that are saved in the NT. I believe Scripture teaches that is one of the differences in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31). Then it was the remnant, but now it's the majority.



The remnant motif is particularly strong throughout the OT because the progressive unfolding of God's promises take place in the midst of repeated failure and rebellion. The grace/promise is manifest in the face of these failures in the preservation of the remnant.

Remnant is what you get when man/leaders/the nation break the covenant that God is determined to keep - and so the remnant anticipates Christ, who will finally keep perfect covenant with God and bring the fullness of God's blessing. Christ through his obedience ushers in the permanent kingdom which would grow from the smallest of seeds to the tallest of trees and overcome/overthrow all the kingdoms of this world; an everlasting kingdom. In Christ, the remnant is established and multiplied - not a remnant but a majority, a thriving household.


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## KGP

Alan D. Strange said:


> **Alan's excellent quote**
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



Yeah I agree with Alan, very good assessment.

If the Apostle James can say 'we are all weak and stumble in many ways' then how careful ought we to be to steer people toward the good shepherd and his sufficiency.

And as a byword, nobody ever shed tears or got emotional because they were told that's what a Christian should be and do if they are serious and the real deal. When the Spirit gives the mind and heart a vision of our sin and the beauty of Christ, then the emotion comes freely. But you only get there by upholding Christ and pointing to Christ, and speaking and explaining from a thousand texts the diverse beauties of Christ, his character and mercy and promises. And even then, it is by the Spirit of God.


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## De Jager

Our tears or level of contrition does not contribute one ounce to our justification; nor is it normative to expect that. John the Baptist was converted in the womb - how many tears do you think he shed during his conversion "experience" (if he even had one). Paul had a tremendously shocking conversion, whereas Timothy simply grew up in a Christian home and no one really knows when he was converted - we just know that he was. I mean, does the Bible even try to establish a standard experience? No. Not in the slightest. Someone's experience or lack thereof has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are saved or not. The Bible tells us that the criteria to be saved is to BELIEVE. It is to trust in God's provision in the gospel. Now the Bible certainly does flesh out what it really means to BELIEVE. But it does not anywhere present some type of standard conversion experience.

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## deleteduser99

I remember Washer one time bemoaning that only certain of his sermons end up on the Internet, and it’s usually the hard-hitting ones. Far as I know he pays little attention to his internet presence and that is on purpose. Of course, this is a problem with your ministry being online—you don’t control the content, and you can’t choose your listeners. What you usually see on YouTube may not even be a fair sampling of his outlook. Though for qualification, I hardly ever listen to him anymore, so how the man is now in outlook and theology I don’t have much idea.

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## Username3000

Harley said:


> I remember Washer one time bemoaning that only certain of his sermons end up on the Internet, and it’s usually the hard-hitting ones. Far as I know he pays little attention to his internet presence and that is on purpose. Of course, this is a problem with your ministry being online—you don’t control the content, and you can’t choose your listeners. What you usually see on YouTube may not even be a fair sampling of his outlook. Though for qualification, I hardly ever listen to him anymore, so how the man is now in outlook and theology I don’t have much idea.



Indeed. I’ve been reading through this thread thinking to myself, “Is this the same Paul Washer I listen to?”

I’ve listened to hours and hours of his preaching, and these critiques of him are nothing similar to what my experience has been.

His ‘shocking’ sermons get all the views, but there is a ton of stuff online that is wonderfully gentle and encouraging to the brothers, full of free grace and heartfelt concern—that is actually the real Paul Washer as far as I can tell.

These so-called ‘shocking’ sermons aren’t the norm.

I’m very disappointed by this thread. Let us not be surprised if on that day, we are absolutely floored by what God has accomplished in and through this brother.


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## deleteduser99

E.R. CROSS said:


> Indeed. I’ve been reading through this thread thinking to myself, “Is this the same Paul Washer I listen to?”
> 
> I’ve listened to hours and hours of his preaching, and these critiques of him are nothing similar to what my experience has been.
> 
> His ‘shocking’ sermons get all the views, but there is a ton of stuff online that is wonderfully gentle and encouraging to the brothers, full of free grace and heartfelt concern—that is actually the real Paul Washer as far as I can tell.
> 
> These so-called ‘shocking’ sermons aren’t the norm.
> 
> I’m very disappointed by this thread. Let us not be surprised if on that day, we are absolutely floored by what God has accomplished in and through this brother.



I think all here believe God works wonderfully through the man despite the theological gaps. I wasn’t converted by the 2002 message, but it forced me to rethink what real Christianity is. There is some fairness to the criticism too that he pins a lot on the experience, at least in his explanations, and I myself made the mistake of trying to achieve some of the same ones, which has been debilitating. Of course, my diet early on when I became more serious was a lot of Washer and Ravenhill, some of illbehonest.com, whatever preaching had earnestness and fire to it, and I still didn’t have a good concept of what a solid church was. Still some of our view can be shaped by the fact that Washer doesn’t try to manage what is put out there.


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## RamistThomist

What about the more quiet ministry of Word and Sacraments? I'm not saying he doesn't believe that, but the piety of the Reformed tradition is centered on Word and Sacraments, and not on the earnestness of my experience.

That's one of the reasons I don't think he is Reformed.


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## LilyG

Harley said:


> I remember Washer one time bemoaning that only certain of his sermons end up on the Internet, and it’s usually the hard-hitting ones. Far as I know he pays little attention to his internet presence and that is on purpose. Of course, this is a problem with your ministry being online—you don’t control the content, and you can’t choose your listeners. What you usually see on YouTube may not even be a fair sampling of his outlook. Though for qualification, I hardly ever listen to him anymore, so how the man is now in outlook and theology I don’t have much idea.



Entire sermons are available both on youtube, and as transcripts for a quick scrutiny.




E.R. CROSS said:


> Indeed. I’ve been reading through this thread thinking to myself, “Is this the same Paul Washer I listen to?”
> 
> I’ve listened to hours and hours of his preaching, and these critiques of him are nothing similar to what my experience has been.
> 
> His ‘shocking’ sermons get all the views, but there is a ton of stuff online that is wonderfully gentle and encouraging to the brothers, full of free grace and heartfelt concern—that is actually the real Paul Washer as far as I can tell.
> 
> These so-called ‘shocking’ sermons aren’t the norm.
> 
> I’m very disappointed by this thread. Let us not be surprised if on that day, we are absolutely floored by what God has accomplished in and through this brother.



Legal preaching tends to one of two outcomes: self-righteousness, or despair. 

We should not be surprised when, on a confessionally reformed forum, members question or critique a failure to preach the whole counsel of God. We especially should not be surprised at the challenge that our assurance has its firm ground in Christ's objective work for us. Though our good works can and do encourage and assure us, they must never take the place of our true, sure ground.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> What about those of us who are from Scottish or Dutch backgrounds, and do not often show emotion?


What is ironic to me is that the most emotional churches would be the full blown Charasmatics, and doubt very much that he would see much of what is being done in the name of Jesus in those groups as producing very much fruit.


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## LilyG

Abeard said:


> _Thanks for sharing that video brother!
> 
> Reminds me of a quote a heard not to long ago...
> 
> "the three greatest wonders of Heaven _will be these: The first will be _to see many people _there whom I _didn’t expect to see. _The second will be _not to find many _church-goers whom I did expect to see. And the third and greatest of all will be _to find myself there_, knowing what I know of the wickedness of my own heart."
> 
> John Newton



This quote doesn't seem to suppprt Washer's tendency to preach works-grounded assurance. Rather, it seems the opposite.


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## SeanPatrickCornell

BayouHuguenot said:


> I wonder how much Washer's baptistic ecclesiology plays into this. Only the elect are church members, and since we can visibly identify church members (and presumably those who aren't), then we can know who is saved.



Brother, with all due respect, this isn't even remotely an accurate or fair representation of Baptist ecclesiology in general or Paul Washer's ecclesiology specifically.

Baptists do not believe that "only the elect are church members". We believe that "only the regenerate elect are members of the New Covenant". 

We are well aware that there are unregenerate false-brethren who have made professions of faith and exist among us in the visible church.

No Baptist worth his salt thinks that we can know who is regenerate and who is not.

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## Taylor

BayouHuguenot said:


> ...I don't think he is Reformed.



I consider him a Calvinistic, somewhat pietistic Baptist.


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## Ed Walsh

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Baptists do not believe that "only the elect are church members". We believe that "only the regenerate elect are members of the New Covenant".
> We are well aware that there are unregenerate false-brethren who have made professions of faith and exist among us in the visible church.
> No Baptist worth his salt thinks that we can know who is regenerate and who is not.



Of course what you say is true. I mean it is an accurate representation of Baptist belief. I'm no Baptist, but when the other team scores you gotta give him a point.

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## Ed Walsh

E.R. CROSS said:


> Indeed. I’ve been reading through this thread thinking to myself, “Is this the same Paul Washer I listen to?”
> 
> I’ve listened to hours and hours of his preaching, and these critiques of him are nothing similar to what my experience has been.
> 
> His ‘shocking’ sermons get all the views, but there is a ton of stuff online that is wonderfully gentle and encouraging to the brothers, full of free grace and heartfelt concern—that is actually the real Paul Washer as far as I can tell.
> 
> These so-called ‘shocking’ sermons aren’t the norm.
> 
> I’m very disappointed by this thread. Let us not be surprised if on that day, we are absolutely floored by what God has accomplished in and through this brother.



I very much liked the several sermons I have heard byPaul Washer. Just last night I listened to one of his more emotional (or convicting as the case may be) and loved it and cried through some of it, but my wife didn't. _To each his own_-in some foreign language for effect.

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## Taylor

E.R. CROSS said:


> I’m very disappointed by this thread. Let us not be surprised if on that day, we are absolutely floored by what God has accomplished in and through this brother.



I don't think anyone on this thread has denied that God has done mighty things through this brother. I myself said above that I believe I was converted through his "Shocking Youth Message." However, just because someone has been used mightily by God, and just because what is being critiqued isn't this person's norm, doesn't mean the person is beyond or above critique, or that the critiques are illegitimate, or that they don't need to be made. Nobody is arguing that his entire ministry is worthless. We are just focusing on a particular facet of this man's preaching emphasis.


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## RamistThomist

No one is saying he hasn't done a good job. We're just saying that he represents a stream of non-reformed piety.


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## A.Joseph

I'm a member of the opc and I love my church and my denomination and my pastor to the core. I truly do.
But when I see some of these pastors and elders and members go astray (with a big A, not to return to true faith), even in some of the most orthodox denominations, I do fear of a strong delusion gripping even some of the most faithful churches and a bit too much complacency .... Again, it starts in my own home. Not sure this is a salvation issue, as much as a discipline issue. God has definitely made a place for Paul Washer, and I fear a day where he could be perceived as anything but an almost John the Baptist of our day, even post Jesus new convenant ...but the 20% was probably over stated and over the top....would love to be able to get more clarification on that sentiment from him.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

SolaScriptura said:


> You guys...
> 
> Paul is employing rhetorical hyperbole. His point is, "there are many in our churches who think they're saved, and they aren't." Don't strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Sheesh.


Yes.

I suspect Rev. Washer's rhetorical flourish was but employing the Pareto Principle to make a point.

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## A.Joseph

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Yes.
> 
> I suspect Rev. Washer's rhetorical flourish was but employing the Pareto Principle to make a point.


nuff said(?), Amen!

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## RamistThomist

I understand the Pareto Principle and all, but when you are making a claim that people who are washed by the blood, fed from the Table, aren't really saved, or at least 80% of them, then any kind of push back is welcome. Especially since the claim is definitionally impossible to prove.


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## deleteduser99

I believe it was in his testimony that Washer admitted to sometimes being given to exaggeration, with the understanding that this needs to be fixed, which is why everything with him is either the greatest or the worst. So if you were to call it out to him, Washer may just admit you are right. Though, again, with statements like Paul's Pareto percentage we ought to just put on the best charitable construct possible that truth will allow. If anything, the term "Reformed" is used much more broadly than most of us on the board would use it (ie. 4/5 point Calvinists), so his definition of Reformed may make the net of his statement wider than we might assume. One possibility anyway.


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## RamistThomist

The Pareto principle works when you are talking about which people do the most work in a church. Being on a ministry team of sorts in the last few churches I was in, I know for a fact that only 20% of people do the work. 

The Pareto Principle does not work in terms of human salvation, who's getting fed from the Table, etc.

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## Abeard

Our Lord Jesus used hyperbole...

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

Our brother Paul is using hyperbole just like our Lord Jesus to invoke an emotional response(which it did). The number doesn't matter, it could be 30, 40 or 60% truly saved. The reality we have to face is that there are a lot people who profess to know and believe in Christ but they are still dead in their sins. What we need to do when we hear things like this is to cry out to God and say with David, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

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## RamistThomist

That could be true, but I get the impression from his overall persona that he meant it. Unless he issues a statement saying he was kidding. I'll retract my comments if he does that.

I know an OPC church in La that has ten people. I am distantly related to about five of them, and I now the other five. I am going to go up to them all at once and say, "8 of y'all ain't saved."

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## earl40

BayouHuguenot said:


> The Pareto principle works when you are talking about which people do the most work in a church. Being on a ministry team of sorts in the last few churches I was in, I know for a fact that only 20% of people do the work.
> 
> The Pareto Principle does not work in terms of human salvation, who's getting fed from the Table, etc.



You have hit the nail on the head. How many of the %20 think that their work in the church will give them a greater reward in heaven than the mom and dad who dragged the kids to school or Sundays service. The entire "ministry" model thinking is a pet peeve of mine and is rampant in most reformed churches.


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## Smeagol




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## RamistThomist

earl40 said:


> You have hit the nail on the head. How many of the %20 think that their work in the church will give them a greater reward in heaven than the mom and dad who dragged the kids to school or Sundays service. The entire "ministry" model thinking is a pet peeve of mine and is rampant in most reformed churches.



That actually wasn't what I was getting at. I believe the Pareto Principle is true in business, church ministry, etc. I just don't think we can apply it to personal salvation.

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## JimmyH

I have heard Paul Washer in the past. He can preach quite a sermon. His famous 'shocking message', to the Youth Evangelism Conference in 2002, provides much food for thought, and is along the same lines. if you've got an hour to watch it.


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## Abeard

If I was diagnosed with cancer a good doctor would try to use his best judgment to tell me how long I have to live. Now I could question his judgment and ask for a second opinion. Most likely another doctor would give a different timeline. We have heard of many cases where people have been given a year to live and have lived 10-20 years. The problem isn't the number of days we have to live or the number of people who aren't saved. The problem is we are sick and need a cure. The church(myself included) as a whole is sick, is weak and in desperate need of reviving.


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## Smeagol

Abeard said:


> If I was diagnosed with cancer a good doctor would try to use his best judgment to tell me how long I have to live. Now I could question his judgment and ask for a second opinion. Most likely another doctor would give a different timeline. We have heard of many cases where people have been given a year to live and have lived 10-20 years. The problem isn't the number of days we have to live or the number of people who aren't saved. The problem is we are sick and need a cure. The church(myself included) as a whole is sick, is weak and in desperate need of reviving.


Careful. The TRUE Church is exactly what Christ desires it to be. The bride of Christ. The TRUE Church is sustained by the blood of the Lamb and is STRONG, BOLD, and quite ALIVE because of our GROOM!

Though the bride is not yet perfected, I think condemning the Church without qualifying should be avoided. Sometimes it is easy to see all “Doom & Gloom”, but remember Christ is the Head of the Church and charges against His bride by default are laid against the "Head" of that bride.

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## RamistThomist

So what exactly does Word and Table do for people if it can't make us morbidly introspective?

“However, the power of God unto salvation is not our passion for God, but the passion he has exhibited toward us sinners by sending his own Son to redeem us.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World

“The gospel makes us extrospective, turning our gaze upward to God in faith and outward to our neighbor in love.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World

These means of grace and the ordinary fellowship of the saints that nurtures and guides us throughout our life may seem frail, but they are jars that carry a rich treasure: Christ with all of his saving benefits.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World

“In an economy of grace, there is enough to go around. The Father’s love and generosity are not scarce. His table is brimming with luxurious fare. That is why we invite those who cannot repay us. After all, it is not our table, but his.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World

“we’ve forgotten that God showers his extraordinary gifts through ordinary means of grace, loves us through ordinary fellow image bearers, and sends us out into the world to love and serve others in ordinary callings.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World

“This has been the vicious cycle of evangelical revivalism ever since: a pendulum swinging between enthusiasm and disillusionment rather than steady maturity in Christ through participation in the ordinary life of the covenant community. The regular preaching of Christ from all of the Scriptures, baptism, the Supper, the prayers of confession and praise, and all of the other aspects of ordinary Christian fellowship are seen as too ordinary.” 
― Michael S. Horton, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World


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## Dachaser

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Brother, with all due respect, this isn't even remotely an accurate or fair representation of Baptist ecclesiology in general or Paul Washer's ecclesiology specifically.
> 
> Baptists do not believe that "only the elect are church members". We believe that "only the regenerate elect are members of the New Covenant".
> 
> We are well aware that there are unregenerate false-brethren who have made professions of faith and exist among us in the visible church.
> 
> No Baptist worth his salt thinks that we can know who is regenerate and who is not.


Agreed, as all who are in the NC relationship with God are saved, while among a church membership roles are both the saved and lost.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> I understand the Pareto Principle and all, but when you are making a claim that people who are washed by the blood, fed from the Table, aren't really saved, or at least 80% of them, then any kind of push back is welcome. Especially since the claim is definitionally impossible to prove.


Especially since he appears to be defining one of the fruits of being saved to some degree as having real emotionalism.


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## RamistThomist

And while we can push back pretty hard against Washer, we see the same thing in some Reformed circles that only allow communion twice a year or so. Here's the conversation I've had with them.

Them: You can't really prepare for communion that often.
Me: Yes, I can.
Them: No, you can't really mean it unless you have had a few months to prepare.

Translation: You just got to "feel" harder when you emote.


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## deleteduser99

BayouHuguenot said:


> That could be true, but I get the impression from his overall persona that he meant it. Unless he issues a statement saying he was kidding. I'll retract my comments if he does that.
> 
> I know an OPC church in La that has ten people. I am distantly related to about five of them, and I now the other five. I am going to go up to them all at once and say, "8 of y'all ain't saved."



With this, perhaps we should give Mr. Washer the last word in the thread, confession and all.

See the following video at the given time-frame points. 
6:36 - his own assertion he pays no attention to what is posted out on the internet (at least this was true in 2009)
7:17 - His own openness to criticism, His own assertion that he understands not all he says is right, and he endeavors to stay open to criticism. Context: in part he's commenting on his own imprecision at one point during the Shocking Youth Message.

"When Jesus was persecuted, when people said bad things about Jesus, they were always wrong. When people make critiques of me, they are not always wrong. We are men. We are weak, we are failing, and I just want people to know that when someone says something about me that's not very positive, they may be right, and I want them to know that I know they may be right, and it breaks me, and I do want to be more exact. I do want to be more holy. I don't want to put an end to the emotions God that has given me, but I do want them to be sanctified and controlled by the Holy Spirit."

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## Taylor

Harley said:


> "When Jesus was persecuted, when people said bad things about Jesus, they were always wrong. When people make critiques of me, they are not always wrong. We are men. We are weak, we are failing, and I just want people to know that when someone says something about me that's not very positive, they may be right, and I want them to know that I know they may be right, and it breaks me, and I do want to be more exact. I do want to be more holy. I don't want to put an end to the emotions God that has given me, but I do want them to be sanctified and controlled by the Holy Spirit."



And, see, despite my (very few) criticisms of Brother Washer, it is this statement and others like it that let me know how much_ more_ sanctified he is than me—by millions of miles. No doubt in my mind at all. In the end, whatever misgivings I may have about the extreme to which he sometimes goes with the insistence on self-doubt in his audiences, I know for sure he holds himself to the same, and higher, standard.


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## RamistThomist

Harley said:


> With this, perhaps we should give Mr. Washer the last word in the thread, confession and all.
> 
> See the following video at the given time-frame points.
> 6:36 - his own assertion he pays no attention to what is posted out on the internet (at least this was true in 2009)
> 7:17 - His own openness to criticism, His own assertion that he understands not all he says is right, and he endeavors to stay open to criticism. Context: in part he's commenting on his own imprecision at one point during the Shocking Youth Message.
> 
> "When Jesus was persecuted, when people said bad things about Jesus, they were always wrong. When people make critiques of me, they are not always wrong. We are men. We are weak, we are failing, and I just want people to know that when someone says something about me that's not very positive, they may be right, and I want them to know that I know they may be right, and it breaks me, and I do want to be more exact. I do want to be more holy. I don't want to put an end to the emotions God that has given me, but I do want them to be sanctified and controlled by the Holy Spirit."



That's great to hear. I'm not sure what that has to do with his claim that only 1/5 of my wife's family's church is saved.

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## LilyG

Harley said:


> With this, perhaps we should give Mr. Washer the last word in the thread, confession and all... I don't want to put an end to the emotions God that has given me, but I do want them to be sanctified and controlled by the Holy Spirit."





Taylor Sexton said:


> And, see, despite my (very few) criticisms of Brother Washer, it is this statement and others like it that let me know how much_ more_ sanctified he is than me—by millions of miles. No doubt in my mind at all. In the end, whatever misgivings I may have about the extreme to which he sometimes goes with the insistence on self-doubt in his audiences, I know for sure he holds himself to the same, and higher, standard.



I realize I am straying from the OP, but I think this undergirds Washer's decision to use the stat, however he got it. 

Washer, however humble and teachable he may be, feels the need to preach far more law than gospel. He often thinks (listen to any sermon) that his people are not performing well enough to call themselves christians, and calls them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get with the program, without the biblical motivation of the gospel (GOOD news!). What do you think this does to the humble, contrite heart in the congregation? Certainly doesn't comfort and encourage!

I feel like, ironically, Washer's own heart has not yet been struck with the weight of the law and its condemnation.


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## deleteduser99

I'll only conclude with a loving admonition, LilyG and Bayou, and I do mean it with love. So long as we are willing to be held to the same standard of judgment which we mete out to others, all well and good, but we will be. I think his grasp of Gospel is better than mine personally, especially this week. Bowing out.

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## A.Joseph

It probably depends on his mood.... Just like me as the hearer. I go through seasons where I feel I need to be condemned. I'm in a low place and I want to hear about spiritual warfare, and fighting the good fight, and the narrow road full of trials and hardships like pilgrims progress, cause that is what I'm relating to at that moment, and I feel God is chastising me with my own personal circumstances, an almost purging and cleansing of all the waste in which I've indulged.... When I'm feeling good and life is going well I am more receptive to a message of love and grace....

I've heard that Washer has encoutered some difficult things during his ministry which probably affects his level of sobriety and sorrow when life is not taken more seriously in the west


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## RamistThomist

Harley said:


> I'll only conclude with a loving admonition, LilyG and Bayou, and I do mean it with love. So long as we are willing to be held to the same standard of judgment which we mete out to others, all well and good, but we will be. I think his grasp of Gospel is better than mine personally, especially this week. Bowing out.



Sure. I am not making any personal remark about him. I am just logically poking holes in his claim. I am also contrasting his pietism with classic and historic Reformed piety. I have no idea what that has to do with how humble, teachable, or "same standard of judgment" he may be.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> Sure. I am not making any personal remark about him. I am just logically poking holes in his claim. I am also contrasting his pietism with classic and historic Reformed piety. I have no idea what that has to do with how humble, teachable, or "same standard of judgment" he may be.


I am still stuck with the impression that he is teaching to us to have confidence and assurance in our salvation by how obedient to God that we are, and while I do see the real need to be obeying the Lord, I place my hope and confidence in the finished work of Christ on my behalf, and not on my own work.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

Dachaser said:


> I am still stuck with the impression that he is teaching to us to have confidence and assurance in our salvation by how obedient to God that we are, and while I do see the real need to be obeying the Lord, I place my hope and confidence in the finished work of Christ on my behalf, and not on my own work.


Leaving the matter of what is actually being taught or not aside, I am confident that there is no place in Scripture where faith is separated from actions, hence some self-examination is proper, especially per James 1:25. If one's doctrine is out of accord with one's practice, something is amiss. That said, self-examination can quickly become morbid introspection, always looking inward, versus outward (2 Corinthians 13:5, 6) to discern Our Lord's beliefs and actions.

Dr Lloyd Jones, _Spiritual Depression_ p.17:

We all agree that we should examine ourselves, but we also agree that introspection and morbidity are bad. But what is the difference between examining ourselves and becoming introspective? I suggest that we cross the line from self-examination to introspection when, in a sense, we do nothing but examine ourselves, and when such self-examination becomes the main and chief end in our life. We are meant to examine ourselves periodically, but if we are always doing it, always, as it were, putting our soul on a plate and dissecting it, that is introspection. And if we are always talking to people about ourselves and our problems and troubles, and if we are forever going to them with that frown upon our face and saying: I am in great difficulty–it probably means that we are all the time centered upon ourselves. That is introspection, and that in turns leads to the condition known as morbidity.​

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## RamistThomist

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> hence some self-examination is proper, especially per James 1:25.



Absolutely, but I think here is the unspoken question in this thread:

When I "examine" myself, what kind of rubrics and checklist am I using? When I examine myself, I usually go back to the fact that Jesus feeds me from his Table, ratifies his suzereign treaty with me, seals me, and so on. 

I never ask whether I experienced hard enough or something.


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## ZackF

Don’t forget Washer’s own wife thought she was falsely assured of her own salvation until relatively recently. I’m sure that’s at play in his thinking.

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## earl40

ZackF said:


> Don’t forget Washer’s own wife thought she was falsely assured of her own salvation until relatively recently. I’m sure that’s at play in his thinking.



Jut a quick question. Doe she get baptized again?

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## SRoper

A big problem with the 20% approach is that it doesn't promote self-examination as much as other-examination. It asks us to look around our congregation and wonder who isn't saved. I can't see how that is good for the body.

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## arapahoepark

I know next to nothing of the man but, I came across this: https://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-preacher-as-sacrament.html


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## Dachaser

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Leaving the matter of what is actually being taught or not aside, I am confident that there is no place in Scripture where faith is separated from actions, hence some self-examination is proper, especially per James 1:25. If one's doctrine is out of accord with one's practice, something is amiss. That said, self-examination can quickly become morbid introspection, always looking inward, versus outward (2 Corinthians 13:5, 6) to discern Our Lord's beliefs and actions.
> 
> Dr Lloyd Jones, _Spiritual Depression_ p.17:
> 
> We all agree that we should examine ourselves, but we also agree that introspection and morbidity are bad. But what is the difference between examining ourselves and becoming introspective? I suggest that we cross the line from self-examination to introspection when, in a sense, we do nothing but examine ourselves, and when such self-examination becomes the main and chief end in our life. We are meant to examine ourselves periodically, but if we are always doing it, always, as it were, putting our soul on a plate and dissecting it, that is introspection. And if we are always talking to people about ourselves and our problems and troubles, and if we are forever going to them with that frown upon our face and saying: I am in great difficulty–it probably means that we are all the time centered upon ourselves. That is introspection, and that in turns leads to the condition known as morbidity.​


I agree that we shoudl be ready and willingly to examine ourselves in order to see if we are still walking as we should with our Lord, but that is not the same as getting my assurance of salvation from looking to Jesus alone for that.


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## Dachaser

BayouHuguenot said:


> Absolutely, but I think here is the unspoken question in this thread:
> 
> When I "examine" myself, what kind of rubrics and checklist am I using? When I examine myself, I usually go back to the fact that Jesus feeds me from his Table, ratifies his suzereign treaty with me, seals me, and so on.
> 
> I never ask whether I experienced hard enough or something.


I check to make sure I am applying what the Bible teaches to me, but never as to be my final source of assurance.


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## Dachaser

SRoper said:


> A big problem with the 20% approach is that it doesn't promote self-examination as much as other-examination. It asks us to look around our congregation and wonder who isn't saved. I can't see how that is good for the body.


Seems to be a recipe for having a Pharisee like attitude spring up among some in the church. the self proclaimed fruit inspectors, who will be judging based upon what they see as legit behavior.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

Dachaser said:


> I agree that we shoudl be ready and willingly to examine ourselves in order to see if we are still walking as we should with our Lord, but that is not the same as getting my assurance of salvation from looking to Jesus alone for that.


I stated nothing different:

That said, self-examination can quickly become morbid introspection, always looking inward, *versus outward* (2 Corinthians 13:5, 6) to discern Our Lord's beliefs and actions.​


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## Ryan&Amber2013

Dachaser said:


> Seems to be a recipe for having a Pharisee like attitude spring up among some in the church. the self proclaimed fruit inspectors, who will be judging based upon what they see as legit behavior.


I remember first being in that passion for holiness and morality stage, and how I was so quick to judge others. Thankfully I still desire that holiness, but have really grown in just loving others and being charitable to them even in their shortcomings.


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## LilyG

arapahoepark said:


> I know next to nothing of the man but, I came across this: https://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-preacher-as-sacrament.html



Worth the read!


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## Username3000

LilyG said:


> Worth the read!


Not worth the charge of my battery that it took to read it. 

That is vile. 

What colour is the sky in some of your worlds?


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## A.Joseph

The man is definitely passionate. I think when he targets carnal Christians he's dead on... But he shouldn't generalize and guesstimate without proper context and qualifier....


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## A.Joseph

I think he's kinda right about preaching against sin. It's a serious matter even for the professing Christian. How are pastors and elders embracing social justice, revoice conferences and democrat platforms? How are some falling into severe temptation unto eternal demise? Have we missed the class on the seriousness of sin and what it truly means to have it purged from our hearts? I pray this is not a salvation issue. But maybe a little anxiety is not such a bad thing if it is part of a gracious, glorious exchange. I'd say a little anxiety is worth it


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## RamistThomist

A.Joseph said:


> I think he's kinda right about preaching against sin. It's a serious matter even for the professing Christian. How are pastors and elders embracing social justice, revoice conferences and democrat platforms? How are we falling into severe temptation unto our eternal demise? We missed the class on the seriousness of sin and what it truly means to have it purged from our hearts. I pray this is not a salvation issue. But maybe a little anxiety is not such a bad thing if it is part of a gracious, glorious exchange. I'd say a little anxiety is worth it



It's a logical leap to go from some pastors are hosting Revoice conferences to 20% of the Reformed world is saved.

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## Abeard

That blog was rubbish. I wouldnt even post something like that about my worst enemy.

I suggest to excersise the same charity towards Paul Washer that you desire from him.

Listen, its one thing to desire a true understanding of what it means to examine yourself if you are in the Faith. Its another thing to riddicule and even mock a man's work for the Lord.

Its one thing if other church leaders are speaking out against Paul Washer and what he teaches. As far as I know they have not. His books are even being published by RHB.

Puritan board is not the place to judge a man's ministry. If you have an issue bring it to your church leaders.

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## RamistThomist

I haven't judged his ministry.

I haven't said any uncharitable thing.

I have merely shown how his claim is vacuous.

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## A.Joseph

Im sure he would like that claim back, we are all on the same team, especially with the way things are going.... He is a good man.... we may have to let this ride. I know there are many who have struggled with assurance in reformed circles so this is a sensitive area. Let’s move on and not quarrel


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## deleteduser99

BayouHuguenot said:


> I haven't judged his ministry.
> 
> I haven't said any uncharitable thing.
> 
> I have merely shown how his claim is vacuous.



Indeed you've made your point. And I make a motion that the thread be closed.

Reactions: Like 2 | Amen 1


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## Smeagol

Harley said:


> Indeed you've made your point. And I make a motion that the thread be closed.


Agreed for the 2nd time

Reactions: Amen 1


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## LilyG

A.Joseph said:


> I think he's kinda right about preaching against sin. It's a serious matter even for the professing Christian. How are pastors and elders embracing social justice, revoice conferences and democrat platforms? How are some falling into severe temptation unto eternal demise? Have we missed the class on the seriousness of sin and what it truly means to have it purged from our hearts? I pray this is not a salvation issue. But maybe a little anxiety is not such a bad thing if it is part of a gracious, glorious exchange. I'd say a little anxiety is worth it



If it's ok with the moderators, and assuming I can put some time and thought into this with two small, needy children (!), could I start another thread out in response to this comment? It would be a general "legal preaching" thread, without referring to Paul Washer. ... I think this is important.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward

BayouHuguenot said:


> It's a logical leap to go from some pastors are hosting Revoice conferences to 20% of the Reformed world is saved.



But that isn't what the headline says. It says "Conservative Reformed". The percentages are obviously much higher among the moderates in the PCA.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

Yes, this thread is done. Now closed.

Reactions: Like 1


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