# How many offices exist in the Church?



## SolaGratia

How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?


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## PresbyDane

Pastor, Deacon, Elder, Evagelist would be my first thought, but I will follow this thread


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

3

Minister, Elder, and Deacon...


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## sastark

Two offices: Elder (subdivided into Teaching and Ruling Elders) and Deacon.


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## PresbyDane

Who can make it one!?!


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## Hamalas

Martin Marsh said:


> Who can make it one!?!



The Pope!!


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## SolaGratia

There is only one office in the Church and that is Messiah, everything else follows from Him.


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## Hamalas

SolaGratia said:


> There is only one office in the Church and that is Messiah, everything else follows from Him.



Well if you already knew why were you asking?


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## he beholds

SolaGratia said:


> There is only one office in the Church and that is Messiah, everything else follows from Him.



I don't get it. Are you saying that there are no other offices beside Messiah? Or that there are three: Messiah, Elder, Deacon (or four, if you are OPC, Messiah, T. Elder, R. Elder, Deacon)? 

Do you believe that the only office holder in the Church is Christ? Or is this just a trick question?


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## SolaGratia

There is first the office of our Lord Jesus Christ and everything else that has been established as an office, according to the scriptures, comes from or follows after His office. 

For example, we served others because He first served us and commanded us to served within the church and outside the church.

-----Added 1/30/2009 at 09:56:50 EST-----



Hamalas said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is only one office in the Church and that is Messiah, everything else follows from Him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you already knew why were you asking?
Click to expand...



Just spreading the Love of Christ.


Deuteronomy 32:2 (New King James Version)

2 *Let my teaching drop as the rain,*
My speech distill as the dew, 
As raindrops on the tender herb, 
And as showers on the grass.


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## fredtgreco

2 1/2


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## he beholds

fredtgreco said:


> 2 1/2



haha...I almost put that!


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## AThornquist

fredtgreco said:


> 2 1/2



Are you implying that Deacons only get a janitor's closet, not a full office?


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## Hamalas

Well Jessica, it appears your child know the answer!


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## Rangerus

We are very over crowded right now, but when that building fund comes in, wow are we going to add some offices!


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## TimV

AH! I see now. The number of office rooms in a church. Speaking of two and a half, in the early days of the South African Republic, President Kruger was giving the various churches plots of land in Johannesburg. When some Jews asked for a plot of city land, he only gave them a half of a plot. As he explained it, because they only believe half of the Bible.


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## A.J.

SolaGratia said:


> How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?



This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon. 

Amazon.com: In defense of parity: A presentation of the parity or equality of elders in the New Testament: Samuel E Waldron: Books

The authors believe that elder = overseer = pastor. I am not sure where I stand on this since I am studying this issue for the first time.


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## Hippo

SolaGratia said:


> There is first the office of our Lord Jesus Christ and everything else that has been established as an office, according to the scriptures, comes from or follows after His office.
> 
> For example, we served others because He first served us and commanded us to served within the church and outside the church.



I would not have thought that Messiah was an office in the Church, is it not external to the Church?

How else can the Church be the bride of Christ?


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## Presbyterian Deacon

AThornquist said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 1/2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you implying that Deacons only get a janitor's closet, not a full office?
Click to expand...


I get more than a janitor's closet. I have the whole church library to roam around in. 

...as long as I get all the new books processed and shelved. 

-----Added 1/31/2009 at 07:08:09 EST-----



sastark said:


> Two offices: Elder (subdivided into Teaching and Ruling Elders) and Deacon.





-----Added 1/31/2009 at 07:09:27 EST-----



SolaGratia said:


> There is only one office in the Church and that is Messiah, everything else follows from Him.




Christ has 3 Offices all His own:

1. Prophet
2. Priest
3. King

-----Added 1/31/2009 at 07:11:27 EST-----



A.J. said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...



I have a book that says the same thing. It's called *The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy*.


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## Scott1

A.J. said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon.
> 
> Amazon.com: In defense of parity: A presentation of the parity or equality of elders in the New Testament: Samuel E Waldron: Books
> 
> The authors believe that elder = overseer = pastor. I am not sure where I stand on this since I am studying this issue for the first time.
Click to expand...


If you study I Timothy 3, Titus 1, and even Acts 6 closely, you probably see a good case biblically for:

Elders especially gifted to teach (Pastor, evangelist)
Elders especially gifted to rule (administer, do church discipline, strategically and tactically plan church life)
Deacons gifted to oversee mercy ministry, encourage liberality, and oversee property stewardship

The beauty of the system, knowing that Scripture teaches absolute power corrupts absolutely (due to the fall) is that everything does not fall on one Senior Pastor, and there is not an expectation that it does. This even checks our tendency to "worship" people and over use them for what we ourselves could do. The Pastor is free to focus on the very, very important task of rightly teaching God's Word.


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## A.J.

Scott1 said:


> If you study I Timothy 3, Titus 1, and even Acts 6 closely, you probably see a good case biblically for:
> 
> Elders especially gifted to teach (Pastor, evangelist)
> Elders especially gifted to rule (administer, do church discipline, strategically and tactically plan church life)
> Deacons gifted to oversee mercy ministry, encourage liberality, and oversee property stewardship
> 
> The beauty of the system, knowing that Scripture teaches absolute power corrupts absolutely (due to the fall) is that everything does not fall on one Senior Pastor, and there is not an expectation that it does. The Pastor is free to teach, carefully.



I agree that this one is a difficult topic, and I would like to look at it as objectively as possible. Thanks for the texts, and the comments. 

Anyway, this is quite off the topic. But are you the same Scott Truax who held a seminar on Reformed Theology (organized by a Pentecostal pastor) somewhere in the province of Cavite (in my homeland) recently? Are you still in the country?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Scott1 said:


> A.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon.
> 
> Amazon.com: In defense of parity: A presentation of the parity or equality of elders in the New Testament: Samuel E Waldron: Books
> 
> The authors believe that elder = overseer = pastor. I am not sure where I stand on this since I am studying this issue for the first time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you study I Timothy 3, Titus 1, and even Acts 6 closely, you probably see a good case biblically for:
> 
> Elders especially gifted to teach (Pastor, evangelist)
> Elders especially gifted to rule (administer, do church discipline, strategically and tactically plan church life)
> Deacons gifted to oversee mercy ministry, encourage liberality, and oversee property stewardship
> 
> The beauty of the system, knowing that Scripture teaches absolute power corrupts absolutely (due to the fall) is that everything does not fall on one Senior Pastor, and there is not an expectation that it does. This even checks our tendency to "worship" people and over use them for what we ourselves could do. The Pastor is free to focus on the very, very important task of rightly teaching God's Word.
Click to expand...


Those that believe the Scriptures teach three offices do not also believe that in that system all the "power" falls to the Senior Pastor. 

Here is an excellent article from an OPC Pastor defending the Three-Office View.

Read it here.

-----Added 1/31/2009 at 09:09:01 EST-----

Actually in this book you can find a defense of a 5-Office View.


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## Jimmy the Greek

Elder and Deacon.

Pastor-teacher is a gift Elders should have.


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## fredtgreco

The real answer (I believe) to the OP is that there are respected exegetes and theologians who teach a three-office view and there are respected exegetes and theologians who teach a two-office view. 

Some three-office view men raise the distinction of elders to such a level that ruling elders are (practically) denigrated and some two-office view men flatten the distinction so much that pastors are treated as employees. Neither such example is Biblical, nor is it indicative of either view as such. They are practical outworkings that have been abused.

Anyone who believes that they can _definitively_ show from Scripture the three- or two-office view to the exclusion of the other is fooling himself, I think. I don't mean that a better case cannot be made for one or the other from the Bible, but this is not a battle that will be "won" this side of glory.

In addition, I am not sure that it is a battle that needs to be won. I believe it is better for REs to respect and support the pastor (a-la Aaron and Hur) than to stand on their own "rights." I also believe that it is better for TEs to respect and involve (as heavily as possible) the REs in the ministry than to stand on their "distinction." After all, the glory is Christ's, not the man's *or even the office's*.

Having served now for several years as both an RE (7) and a TE (3) I think that I have a bit of perspective on this. Hence my somewhat humorous answer "2 1/2." Substance is better than form on this issue.

Blessings,


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## jwithnell

I appreciate the mention of Messiah as office because authority flows _from_ Him and I've known many godly pastors to refer to themselves as "under shepherds." That said, the two on-going earthly offices would be elder and deacon.

How do you folks think "Bishop" fits into the picture? I've seen it explained that the original languages call for one office (elder) with two functions. The early church clearly used the title, though, and I've sometimes wondered if our Reformation Fathers were too quick to reject the title because of the abuses of the papists. 

Whatever its use, I don't think the Episcopals and Lutherans have the right idea either because Jesus' pattern was to have multiple rulers (He appointed 12 apostles and the early church was careful to maintain that number by filling in behind Judas) and we see that pattern continued in the pastoral epistles.


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## KMK

A.J. said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many church offices exist or are there in the Church according to the scriptures?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon.
> 
> Amazon.com: In defense of parity: A presentation of the parity or equality of elders in the New Testament: Samuel E Waldron: Books
> 
> The authors believe that elder = overseer = pastor. I am not sure where I stand on this since I am studying this issue for the first time.
Click to expand...


Where did you find this book?


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## staythecourse

Two: 1. Elder/Bishop/Pastor/Head Honcho and 2. Deacon (married to Deaconesses)/Music Minister/Drama Leader

OK. Forget the last two "slashed" titles.


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## A.J.

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> A.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> This book which I am currently reading says that there are only two: elder and deacon.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a book that says the same thing. It's called *The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy*.
Click to expand...



Hi. What I meant by that statement is that the book which I am reading teaches that elder = overseer = pastor. In other words, the authors of that book reject the distinction between ruling elder and teaching elder. For them, all pastors are elders, and all elders are pastors. 

-----Added 2/1/2009 at 07:40:40 EST-----



KMK said:


> Where did you find this book?



I borrowed it from a friend. The book was published by Truth For Eternity Ministries of the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, MI.


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## Jimmy the Greek

Pastoring and shepherding are what Elders are to do. Acts 20.28.

In my humble opinion Scripture does not indicate directly or indirectly that "Pastor" is an office or a title. The fact that it has become such is lamentable.


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## Skyler

Our church only has one office.

It's where we keep the recording equipment. 

That aside, I've seen guidelines for elders and deacons in Timothy. Our church currently has two elders and no specific deacons, but there are several men(and their wives) who fill those positions. Most of the folks in our congregation do at one time or another, actually...


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## TsonMariytho

Gomarus said:


> Elder and Deacon.
> 
> Pastor-teacher is a gift Elders should have.



1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, *able to teach*,


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