# Infant Baptism Debate



## Don (Apr 19, 2004)

Has anyone here listened to the debate with James White and Geoff Volker vs. Robert Strimple and Gary Johnson? If so, what were your thoughts on it?


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## wsw201 (Apr 19, 2004)

Is the debate on line? If so, can you provide a link?


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## sastark (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:7a414e2069][i:7a414e2069]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:7a414e2069]
[quote:7a414e2069][i:7a414e2069]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:7a414e2069]
Is the debate on line? If so, can you provide a link? [/quote:7a414e2069]

no, they sell it at www.aomin.org

I have not listened to it, but this saturday I am going to see my two friends, Gene Cook j.r. debate Roger Wagner (OPC).

-Paul [/quote:7a414e2069]

Hey, I've met Roger Wagner!

He was traveling with the Supertones and they came to my church (this was several years ago, now). 

Hmm... not much else to say. haha. Just thought I'd mention I had met some one who got mentioned on the board.


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## sastark (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:35e253435f][i:35e253435f]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:35e253435f]

yea, he was their road pastor [/quote:35e253435f]

was he the road pastor or the roadie pastor?

uzzled:


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## Don (Apr 19, 2004)

As mentioned it's on the aomin.org website. It seemed as though White and Volker had the upper hand throughout the debate. Of course, I am a novice and still trying to grasp the paedo baptist position.


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## sosipater (Apr 20, 2004)

*debate*

Don,

I have a copy of this debate and have listened to it, but it has been a while. From my position as a credo Baptist I thought Dr. White and Volker did a good job, but as far as specifics go I would have to give it another listen.

Grace &amp; Peace,
Russ


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## Don (Apr 20, 2004)

In the debate, James brought up the Great Commission and shows the order of it which is to go into all the world, then make disciples, then baptize them. 

How would a paedo-baptist respond to this? I was waiting for Strimple or Johnson to respond but they didn't or I entirely missed it if they did!


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## sastark (Apr 20, 2004)

[quote:3b6c4cb66e][i:3b6c4cb66e]Originally posted by Don[/i:3b6c4cb66e]
In the debate, James brought up the Great Commission and shows the order of it which is to go into all the world, then make disciples, then baptize them. 

How would a paedo-baptist respond to this? I was waiting for Strimple or Johnson to respond but they didn't or I entirely missed it if they did! [/quote:3b6c4cb66e]

Haha! Very simply: You can't baptize some one who isn't a Christian. And, all Christians are disciples. Hence, you teach the world, when they believe you baptize those who believe, and their children, since the promise is to us and our children (Acts 2:39).


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## luvroftheWord (Apr 20, 2004)

I attempted some Greek work on Matthew 28:19 in a past thread in response to somebody. Below is what I posted.

quote:
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When Jesus said, &quot;...baptizing them...&quot;, the &quot;them&quot; refers to disciples. So, Jesus meant &quot;baptizing disciples&quot;. 

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First, even if that's what he meant, that still doesn't necessitate a chronology here. 

Second, the Greek text will not allow this interpretation. (I don't know if you know Greek or not, but to be safe I'm going to assume you don't) For one thing, the noun &quot;disciples&quot; is not present in the text. The word that the English versions commonly derive the the word &quot;disciple&quot; from is the verb matheteuo. This verb means &quot;to make one a disciple&quot;, or simply &quot;to teach&quot;. In fact, the KJV translates this verse, &quot;Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them...&quot; If you translate the verse this way, then even in English the word &quot;them&quot; cannot refer to &quot;disciples&quot; since the word isn't even present in English. It is crystal clear in the Greek text (and even some English texts, depending on which translation you have, such as the KJV) that the pronoun autous, &quot;them&quot;, is referring to the ethne, &quot;nations&quot;. 

Now, as to what Matt 28:19 IS saying about &quot;making disciples&quot; and &quot;baptizing&quot;, the verb matheteuo is a simple command (for those who are familiar with Greek, it is aorist active imperative). The word &quot;baptizing&quot;, in technical language, is an anarthrous present active participle in the predicate position, which means the participle is functioning adverbially to describe the command to teach/make disciples. What this all means in layman's terms is that the action of the participle (in this case, the &quot;baptizing&quot; ) is taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb, which is the command to teach/make disciples. 

So as I said before, there is nothing in the text of Matthew 28:19 that gives us a chronological order of &quot;first you make disciples, then you baptize&quot;. At most, it says both acts of disciple-making and baptizing are to be practiced presently in the ministry of the church. This verse cannot be used to argue against the paedobaptist position. 

I apologize if you already know Greek and anything I said insulted your intelligence, as that wasn't my intention. I also apologize if what I said was way over your head because I wasn't trying to make you feel or look stupid. I supposed I should have asked if you were familiar with Greek before I posted all this, but since I've written it all up, I'll post it, and if you have any questions about what I wrote, I'll try to help you understand. 

[Edited on 3-20-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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