# Challenge



## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

Ok, Calvinists, here is a challenge. Present a persuasive reason (argument, proog text and discussion, whatever) to accept limited atonement in three sentences or less. You can include scripture citations. If you can do in less than 3 sentences, you get bonus points! The game is on. Let's see who can withstand the challenge!


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## ReformedWretch (Sep 26, 2005)

All who God calls shall be saved.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 26, 2005)

yeah what he said


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## Poimen (Sep 26, 2005)

Romans 8:34-35

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 26, 2005)

[insert John Owen's argument]


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

"[insert John Owen's argument]"

That's cheating!


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## RamistThomist (Sep 26, 2005)

Universalism assumped for the sake of the argument,
Ergo Limited Atonement.

(That was so Vantillian)


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## ChristopherPaul (Sep 26, 2005)

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). Christ´s atonement was a success and as a result is now at the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are made a footstool at His feet, the last being death. What was prophesied at Mary´s conception was fulfilled with Christ´s words, "It is finished!"


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## Me Died Blue (Sep 26, 2005)

We learn from John 17:9, 20, "I [Jesus] am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you [Father] have given me, for they are yours"¦I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word," that Jesus only prays for the salvation of the elect. Then we remember from Isaiah 53:12 (emphasis mine), "Therefore I will divide him [Jesus] a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because _he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors_," that the objects of His intercession are linked with those of His death.

Hence, if He _only_ prays for the elect (John), and He makes intercession for _all_ those people with whom He was numbered (Isaiah), it _necessarily_ follows that He was only numbered with the elect.


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## Arch2k (Sep 26, 2005)

FOR WHO DID Christ DIE? by John Owen

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either: 1)All the sins of all men, 2) All the sins of some men, or 3) Some of the sins of all men. 

In which case it may be said: That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved; That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth...But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? 

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"


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## Poimen (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "[insert John Owen's argument]"
> 
> That's cheating!



Yeah, Gabe and Jeff are cheating! It's not fair!!!!


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## ChristopherPaul (Sep 26, 2005)

John Owen was the Atonement meister.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 26, 2005)

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 
--John 17:9


Checkmate.


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

"Yeah, Gabe and Jeff are cheating! It's not fair!!!!"

Don't worry, Daniel, I am the sole judge of this contest and cheaters will be dealt with harshly. 



[Edited on 9-26-2005 by Scott]


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

I am going to give Jeff a special dispensation b/c the argument is so great. Gabe, however, shall receive no dispensation b/c he did not even post the link.


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## Me Died Blue (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
> --John 17:9
> ...



Ahh, but as I pointed out above, that verse does nothing for our case for Limited Atonement without Isaiah 53:12.


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## Calvibaptist (Sep 26, 2005)

So, Scott, I guess that makes you a..........dispensationalist!
:bigsmile:


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## ChristopherPaul (Sep 26, 2005)

No, he is rather a dispensationer


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## Arch2k (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> I am going to give Jeff a special dispensation b/c the argument is so great. Gabe, however, shall receive no dispensation b/c he did not even post the link.


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## Scott (Sep 27, 2005)

Good job - all the non-cheaters showed their theological manhood on this!


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## larryjf (Sep 27, 2005)

Jesus gave His life for the sheep, not the goats...
*I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. *
(Joh 10:11)

The Father gives Jesus those who will come to Him...
*All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. *
(Joh 6:37)

And no one can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father...
*No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. *
(Joh 6:44)

Christ gave Himself for the Church...

*Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. *
(Act 20:28)

*Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, *
(Eph 5:25)


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## BobVigneault (Sep 27, 2005)

Rom 9:21Â Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22Â What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction...."

There is no need to atone for those prepared for destruction. (Probably this a better argument for reprobation than the atonement.)


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## Saiph (Sep 27, 2005)

I will try an OT approach:



> Numbers 16:20-22
> 
> And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, "Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment." And they fell on their faces and said, "O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?"






> Numbers 16: 41-50
> 
> But on the next day all the congregation of the people of Israel grumbled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, "You have killed the people of the LORD." And when the congregation had assembled against Moses and against Aaron, they turned toward the tent of meeting. And behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared. And Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Get away from the midst of this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment." And they fell on their faces. And Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer, and put fire on it from off the altar and lay incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the LORD; the plague has begun." So Aaron took it as Moses said and ran into the midst of the assembly. And behold, the plague had already begun among the people. And he put on the incense and made atonement for the people. And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped. Now those who died in the plague were 14,700, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. And Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting, when the plague was stopped.


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## Romans922 (Sep 27, 2005)

'...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.' - Matthew 20:28


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