# How much does a person have to know in order to be saved?



## Brian Kooshian (Jan 5, 2013)

I apologize in advance if this has been asked already, but a search of Puritanboard didn't turn anything up.

During devotions this evening, my 16 yr. old son asked me how much a person had to know in order to be saved. I told him that In my humble opinion for an adult it should be at least the content of the Apostles' and Nicene creeds plus the rudiments of the doctrine of the Trinity, an understanding of one's sin, and some understanding of salvation in Christ (as opposed to works).

Any help here?

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## Herald (Jan 5, 2013)

Brian,

We need to be careful not to advance past what scripture clearly tells us. 

The Phillipian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" In response Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:30, 31). While the Apostles' and Nicene creeds are important historical statements of truth, to require a person to believe their content in order to be saved is a litmus test that, in my humble opinion, exceeds what scripture requires. 

The ordinary means of salvation is the Gospel, the preaching of the Word of God. It is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding of the Word, resulting in belief by the person receiving it. (c.f. 1689 LBC, Chapter 14, paragraphs 1 and 2).


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## Jack K (Jan 5, 2013)

Bill, I guess the question is how much about Jesus one needs to know in order to believe in him and have it mean something. I agree with you that requiring the entire content of the creeds probably goes too far. But surely some knowledge of the person and work of Christ is necessary if one is to believe in him. And presumably Paul elaborated on his initial response to the jailer.

I'm with you, though, in that I'm not sure we can get a satisfactory answer without creating a litmus test beyond what Scripture gives. One must believe in Jesus. God knows the true faith he has granted when it's there.


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## Herald (Jan 5, 2013)

Hi, Jack.

While I did not say it directly, I am assuming that the preached Word includes presenting the Son of God to the extent necessary for salvation. I agree that Paul presumably elaborated beyond his initial statement to the jailer.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 5, 2013)

I think the 16 year old asked a thought provoking question that leads to many more questions... What must I do to be saved? Is not the same thing as how much does one have to know to be saved? _When a person is examined for membership they have to make a profession of faith and "I believe in the Lord Jesus" DOESN'T CUT IT!!!_ The Session wants a testimony. They want to know what you believe. So, even though all one must do to be saved is believe in the Lord Jesus ... One must *know* more to be a communicant member of the visible church.


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## py3ak (Jan 5, 2013)

It is a very difficult question. I suspect that it is meant to be difficult, to prevent us from dismissing as unimportant what really is vital. I think the way to conceive it of may be that God is not really limited from creating faith in a persons' heart by the quantity of knowledge they possess. But we should be concerned to teach everything ignorance of which makes us unsafe: ignorance of the Trinity, sin, the cross, the means of grace, the inspiration of Scripture, the church, and many other points do in fact make us quite unsafe, even though we can't say that one can't be converted if one can't pass a test on those subjects. In other words, it is not necessary to require detailed knowledge before we believe someone's profession of faith; but it is very bad practice to say, "Well, they're saved, no real need to teach them anything else."


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## Poimen (Jan 5, 2013)

Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 7 



> 22. Q. What, then, must a Christian believe?
> A. All that is promised us in the gospel,[1] which the articles of our catholic and undoubted Christian faith (Apostle's Creed) teach us in a summary.
> [1] Matt. 28:19; John 20:30,31.

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## Zach (Jan 5, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> I think the 16 year old asked a thought provoking question that leads to many more questions... What must I do to be saved? Is not the same thing as how much does one have to know to be saved? When a person is examined for membership they have to make a profession of faith and "I believe in the Lord Jesus" DOESN'T CUT IT!!! The Session wants a testimony. They want to know what you believe. So, even though all one must do to be saved is believe in the Lord Jesus ... One must *know* more to be a communicant member of the visible church.



That's not what Scripture says. All that someone has to know in order to be saved is that they are a sinner and that faith in the Lord Jesus brings them into a state of grace in which their sins are forgiven because of his work on the cross. Bill is absolutely right that usually the preaching of the Gospel will include presenting Jesus as he is and Ruben is absolutely right about the necessity of continuing to teach. However, as our brother Bill pointed out, Scripture repeatedly says that all one must do to be saved is believe in the Lord Jesus.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 5, 2013)

"It's not what you know, it's who you know."

I'd say the original question may focus too much on the quantity, or on a set of particulars, rather than on the reality of an ongoing deepening knowledge of the Truth as it is in Jesus.

Do you ever say, "How much do I have to know to be a member of my earthly family?" This kind of knowledge is more than just info (it IS info, but it's more than info). Perhaps a different but similar question might be, "How much do I have to know to be an American?"

Do we ever quit "growing" in knowledge of our family, and its life? Or to put a different spin on the ideas before us, "Is it ever enough to just know my last name?" Well, maybe there's a sense in which getting a handle on your last name is an early starting point for knowing your family. On the other hand, if you are 16yrs, and you don't really know your family other than your last name--that's not much of an identity or an identification.

A person who has no interest in his national citizenship is hardly worth calling a citizen. He's more like a parasite, if you think about it. He might not like it as much if some other nation subjected his native land, but as long as he had more or less the same of everything, he might as well join with the new crew. Cheap allegiance might not be worth much when the chips are down.

Being a Christian is all about "*grow[ing] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ," 2Pet.3:18*. Christianity is a hero-worship religion. Christ is our Mediator--the King, the Prophet, the Priest. He is worthy of your devotion--your absolute, unqualified, dedicated, love. If a soldier can love a great commander, and throw himself into a battle for him (which he may not survive), then a Christian can love Jesus, who already "loved us, and gave himself for us." And now he lives again for us, and he is our resurrection and our life. We cannot lose anything, who belong to him. Not even our life, Jn.3:16.

What spouse, who really loves and is devoted to a marriage companion, ever quits "growing" in knowledge of the depths of the other person? A marriage can be made from very little knowledge; but any marriage that doesn't result in mutual deepening knowledge relation isn't worth the name.

The Bible is about knowing the one, true, Triune God. It's about knowing him as God, and our God. It is about knowing him through Jesus Christ. So, we grow in that grace and knowledge of the dear Lord by a lifetime of pigrimage, following him through the wilderness, untill he makes his bride (to which his people all belong) a safe home in his Promised Land.

How much do you need to know to be a Christian? Barely anything. And everything. About Jesus.

A faithful creed or (Reformed) catechism is a good start on basic introduction of what the Bible teaches about this Person.


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## Mushroom (Jan 5, 2013)

As much as John the Baptist knew whilst in his mother's womb when Christ entered the house in the womb of Mary... We aren't given to know God's will in these things; we are to know them by their fruit, and the Church is to examine those who would approach the table, but none of that is determinate of salvation. The Spirit moves where He will. There can be no minimum level of cognition assigned to salvation - it is of God alone. Otherwise you will be forced to take the position that there are no elect infants that die in their infancy, as well as some other ghastly conclusions concerning those of diminished capacity.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 5, 2013)

> It's not what you know, it's who you know






> Perhaps a different but similar question might be, "How much do I have to know to be an American?"


Nothing, if you are born in America. 
However, if you want to become an American you have to know enough to past a test and become a citizen. 
And, if you want to become a communicant member of the visible church you have to * know * enough to articulate what it is you believe in order to be given a charitable judgment by the Session and extended the right hand of fellowship.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 6, 2013)

&


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## Zach (Jan 6, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > irresistible_grace said:
> ...



Yes I did. And I saw that you said,


> "I believe in the Lord Jesus" DOESN'T CUT IT!!!


 That is simply not what Scripture teaches.


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## CharlieJ (Jan 6, 2013)

In the early church (2nd-5th centuries), there was a significant catechetical process through which one had to pass before being admitted to membership in the Church. One might realize, as Zach has, that this process seems at odds with the very quick process (hear a sermon, get baptized) often found in the New Testament. 

However, there were reasons for the rise of this practice. First, there was the proliferation of heresy. It was necessary to ensure that people wanting to become Christians actually wanted to become Christians, not Gnostics or Marcionites or Manichees, all of whom claimed Christ and operated churches similar to the Catholic church. Second, there was the danger of convenience conversions, in which people were joining for personal gain or some other such thing. The catechetical period involved a strict examination of a candidate's morals to see whether he or she had a serious desire for the new life about to begin through baptism. Although it may grate on our Protestant principles, the Christian church in the first few centuries was distinguished from other religions by a particular moral code strictly enforced on its followers. 

Probably the best historical documents for gaining perspective on this issue are the Didache, the first half of which is instruction for catechumens, and Gregory Nazianzen's Catechetical Orations. There is also a book out by William Harmless on Augustine and the catechumenate.


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## Matthias (Jan 6, 2013)

How much did the thief on the cross know?

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## Zach (Jan 6, 2013)

CharlieJ said:


> In the early church (2nd-5th centuries), there was a significant catechetical process through which one had to pass before being admitted to membership in the Church. One might realize, as Zach has, that this process seems at odds with the very quick process (hear a sermon, get baptized) often found in the New Testament.
> 
> However, there were reasons for the rise of this practice. First, there was the proliferation of heresy. It was necessary to ensure that people wanting to become Christians actually wanted to become Christians, not Gnostics or Marcionites or Manichees, all of whom claimed Christ and operated churches similar to the Catholic church. Second, there was the danger of convenience conversions, in which people were joining for personal gain or some other such thing. The catechetical period involved a strict examination of a candidate's morals to see whether he or she had a serious desire for the new life about to begin through baptism. Although it may grate on our Protestant principles, the Christian church in the first few centuries was distinguished from other religions by a particular moral code strictly enforced on its followers.
> 
> Probably the best historical documents for gaining perspective on this issue are the Didache, the first half of which is instruction for catechumens, and Gregory Nazianzen's Catechetical Orations. There is also a book out by William Harmless on Augustine and the catechumenate.



Thanks for the history, Charlie. I did not know that and it is very interesting and relevant to the topic of joining with the visible church. I certainly understand why the Early Church did that and the need in our day to be sure that people have an understanding of what the gospel is. There are many people who claim to believe in Jesus who clearly do not. But, as we consider this, the question in the original post was how much does one need to know in order to be SAVED. To say that, "I believe in Jesus," is not enough with regard to knowledge runs the risk of turning faith into an affirmation of certain facts than receiving and resting upon Jesus Christ alone for salvation. 

I'm not accusing the Early Church or you, Jess, of believing that. However, Scripture teaches that someone sincerely confessing, "I believe in Jesus!" is enough.



Matthias said:


> How much did the thief on the cross know?



Exactly.


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## christiana (Jan 6, 2013)

We all have a starting point when we first place faith in Christ and believe that He is the Son of God, that is Justification.
At that time we have an increasing desire to know more and begin to study our bible, attend church regularly and we find our habits and interests are changing as our Lord begins the progress of Sanctification that continues until we are glorified at death. * We are just as saved on that first day of belief as we are on the day we die and are glorified *but we learn and grow in the interim and the amount of knowledge varies person to person according to time and circumstance and hunger.


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## jwithnell (Jan 6, 2013)

This is a question dear to the heart of our congregation because we have several "special needs" children including one who has no language capabilities. "What God has worked into their hearts" would be sufficient and reasonable answer. _None_ of us can make the claim that we came to Christ because we looked at the information before us and decided to have faith. In many ways, 'Becca is an excellent example of what we all are before God: completely incapable of knowing or expressing anything regarding him apart from his loving and sovereign intervention in our lives.

If I had a 16-year old (and I've gone through three) ask me this question, I'd turn it around and ask, what does the Bible teach regarding salvation? And assuming an orthodox response, I would ask as Jesus did: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 6, 2013)

*"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent"* (John 17:3).

Responding strictly to the OP, I like Brad's take on the question. I remember when I was 26 – almost 45 years ago – a woman was fervently witnessing to me about Jesus dying on the cross for sinners; I was resistant, fervently opposed to her testimony (being deep into Eastern and other errant thought), when, in the midst of her talking, the Spirit of Christ shone into my heart and the presence of the Crucified and Risen One smote me with His love and glory, and I knew He was the true God and my eternal Savior. I really knew nothing else. I didn’t say anything to the woman, but left, and she gave me a Gospel of John on the way out.

Two weeks later I went to visit her and her family, and she was surprised to hear I had been converted through her testimony. She asked if I had a Bible and I said no. She told me to get one, and to start going to church (she directed me to a Pentecostal church in Manhattan).

In the months following the faithful Shepherd kept me and set me on His path, though I was a spiritual failure many years. What steadied me in the Way was a manifestation of God’s grace to me in a crisis years later, and then the intellectual understanding of that grace through Reformed doctrine.

But in the beginning I knew nothing but that Jesus was mine and I was His. As Spurgeon said concerning his own conversion experience, “I looked at Him, and He looked at me, and we were one forever.”

Though I _can_ see the need – as Charlie showed – for the church to screen applicants for membership, as it is a holy community, and the defiled (and self-deceived) _do_ seek to come in and ravage the sheep. But the OP asked only about being saved.

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J., for years I worked with special needs children and adults, and had a heart for them. A few I baptized in the shower (I would talk to them about Jesus, even though their cognitive skills were minimal – yet the Lord can touch the hearts of even these, even as He touched mine while I was spiritually dead and dumb as an ox).


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## Edward (Jan 6, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> In order to become a communicant member of the visible church one must give a credible profession of faith. And, as that saved sinner sits before the Session they are examined concerning what they know. The question "what must I know?" is far more complex than "what must I do?" when viewed by someone who has had to go through the process of membership examination in the ARP, OPC, RPCNA & FCoS(continuing).



Don't confuse the requirements for being admitted to the table visible church with the requirements for salvation (admission into the catholic, or invisible church).


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## rbcbob (Jan 6, 2013)

moderator warning- thread closed while tempers cool


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## rbcbob (Jan 7, 2013)

Thread Reopened. Let's remember to be gracious and considerate.


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## Zach (Jan 7, 2013)

I apologize, Jess, if I was not gracious and considerate toward your post. Please forgive me. I was not trying to take your quote out of context but I was merely confused, judging by your reaction, as to what you were trying to say regarding the knowledge one must have in order to believe. I guess my answer to the question, to be most clear as to where I am coming from, is that a person must know only enough to sincerely believe on the Lord Jesus. As others have said in various ways, I think that amount of knowledge is very little and grows with our sanctification. Blessings to you, Sister, and I hope I did not offend you.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 7, 2013)

Zach said:


> I apologize, Jess, if I was not gracious and considerate toward your post. Please forgive me. I was not trying to take your quote out of context but I was merely confused, judging by your reaction, as to what you were trying to say regarding the knowledge one must have in order to believe. I guess my answer to the question, to be most clear as to where I am coming from, is that a person must know only enough to sincerely believe on the Lord Jesus. As others have said in various ways, I think that amount of knowledge is very little and grows with our sanctification. Blessings to you, Sister, and I hope I did not offend you.



Thank you, dear brother. My apologizes as well.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2013)

Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

I really like what Bruce said.

I think we have a tendency to treat faith as if we cross some sort of threshold of salvation when we know a minimal set of propositions and then embrace that truth.

The question is asked innocently enough so I wouldn't be bothered by the question but our salvation is, in the truest sense, accomplished for us by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Our mind is involved in that work but it's not as if the Holy Spirit waited for or was dependent upon a minimal set of factual content in order to save us.

The problem I have with answers that stress the "Mere Christianity" theme that, as long as you know and embrace these theological facts, that its really what the Church has decided saves you. It's not as if the Spirit would ever dispose of those facts and lead us to the conclusion that they're irrelevant but neither would the Spirit ever lead us to a point of thinking that "this is the minimal set of information you need, you've now crossed the threshold of knowledge of salvation and you're guaranteed salvation at this point because you knew and embraced this minimal set of information."

The way to look at it is that evangelical faith unites us to Christ and, at that point, we are maturing (as Bruce noted). We don't ever stop maturing. We knew something of the Lord when, through the Spirits' work, we hated our sin and clung to Christ but why measure such a thing? Why ask what place it was necessary to cross that threshold?

In a real sense, the Scriptures are less concerned with what you knew when you began than whether you are still clinging to Christ, abiding in the vine, and bearing fruit in terms of knowledge and life. The author of the Hebrews doesn't commend the people that many of his readers are like babies who can only handle milk but he castigates them. He's sees their immaturity as a sign that they're not growing and, later, equates it to a form of rebellion that they refuse to, Today, hear the Lord's voice and spur one another on.

Thus, what do we need to know: Christ as revealed through the Word by the Spirit. What we know, Today, is that we are to abide in Christ and, by His Spirit, grow.


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## rbcbob (Jan 7, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
> 
> I really like what Bruce said.
> 
> ...



Rich you are quite right. The search for the minimal proposition to believe for salvation is rooted in historic Sandemanianism.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 7, 2013)

I think the answer to the question "How much does a person have to know to be saved" is actually "it depends on now much that person needs to know before he believes".

I mean, I think most of us can agree that it's hard to have saving faith if you don't know 1) that you're a sinner 2) that by your own you're dead in your sins 3) that you need a savior 4) that Jesus, the Son of God, was that savior and 5) that he died for the remission of sins.

Some people can be saved with that bare minimum amount of knowledge. For some people it takes more knowledge than that for belief to dawn upon them.

The Holy Spirit will apply exactly as much knowledge to the elect as they need to have a change of heart and generate belief and saving faith.


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## arapahoepark (Jan 7, 2013)

Conversation here, though different reminds me of this, but the guy who wrote the book that Ken Ham responds to is clearly a heretic:
What


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## thbslawson (Jan 7, 2013)

We do believe that elect infants are saved, so it's not so much of question of "What do you know?" as it is "Does God know you?", and if has he called you and granted you the supernatural faith to believe. How this happens with elect infants I do not know. But with children of understanding and adults, it happens through the hearing of the word by ordinary means. Scripture calls upon the lost to repent and believe. I don't think one must have a complete understanding of various doctrines in order to do this. For instance, one may not understand the virgin birth or the trinity and yet be saved. But I believe a truly converted person, as he studies the word, will accept and cherish these doctrines.


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## Randy in Tulsa (Jan 7, 2013)

Maybe the better question is "what must I do to be saved." The Westminster Larger Catechism has an interesting answer, some of which has been addressed in comments:

Q. 153. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse due to us by reason of the transgression of the law?
A. That we may escape the wrath and curse of God due to us by reason of the transgression of the law, he requireth of us repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, and the diligent use of the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation.

Q & A 153 assumes 152, which provides:

Q. 152. What doth every sin deserve at the hands of God?
A. Every sin, even the least, being against the sovereignty, goodness, and holiness of God, and against his righteous law, deserveth his wrath and curse, both in this life, and that which is to come; and cannot be expiated but by the blood of Christ.


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## Peairtach (Jan 7, 2013)

Are we talking about how much a person needed/needs to know, minimally, BC or AD or both?


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## rbcbob (Jan 7, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Are we talking about how much a person needed/needs to know, minimally, BC or AD or both?



Richard that does seem to be bound up in this discussion. Before Christ came it can be seen as simply to "believe God" as in the case of Abraham. After the coming of the Savior the "what" that someone needs to know, and by implication believe, is variously described as "the truth", "the gospel", "the record that God has given of His Son", etc. I think that the common thread running through the Bible is persons who believe God. By the grace imparted by the Holy Spirit they are granted the gift of faith in God. Abraham believed whatever God told him. The content of that revelation in Abraham's case was not near so explicit as what He reveals to those since the completion of the NT. The common link is believing Him who speaks.


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## Edward (Jan 7, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> I think the 16 year old asked a thought provoking question that leads to many more questions... What must I do to be saved? Is not the same thing as how much does one have to know to be saved? _When a person is examined for membership they have to make a profession of faith and "I believe in the Lord Jesus" DOESN'T CUT IT!!!_ The Session wants a testimony. They want to know what you believe. So, even though all one must do to be saved is believe in the Lord Jesus ... One must *know* more to be a communicant member of the visible church.



My apologies for misunderstanding your posts. Since the question of the original poster has been addressed, I 'll probably exit this thread.


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## AdoptedDaughterHeir (Jan 8, 2013)

I'll chime in here just briefly because I know that Brian (my husband) is sick and has been going right to bed after work and therefore not able to get in here...

My son was actually just asking about people he knows from other church denominations; what does a church and it's people minimally have to teach/believe about salvation in order for us to see them as a fellow Christians and not aberrations, heretics, cults, etc. I think Brian had missed the first part of my conversation with our 16 year old, and therefore didn't add that bit to the original question. Sorry this turned into such an inflammatory conversation!! It certainly wasn't meant to be. I hope my addition of this information doesn't make the conversation more exasperating! Thank you all for being willing to address it.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 8, 2013)

AdoptedDaughterHeir said:


> I'll chime in here just briefly because I know that Brian (my husband) is sick and has been going right to bed after work and therefore not able to get in here...
> 
> My son was actually just asking about people he knows from other church denominations; what does a church and it's people minimally have to teach/believe about salvation in order for us to see them as a fellow Christians and not aberrations, heretics, cults, etc. I think Brian had missed the first part of my conversation with our 16 year old, and therefore didn't add that bit to the original question. Sorry this turned into such an inflammatory conversation!! It certainly wasn't meant to be. I hope my addition of this information doesn't make the conversation more exasperating! Thank you all for being willing to address it.



Always, be quick to show charity when dealing with individuals who profess Christ. Many of us have been delivered from much (including false doctrine). And, be slow to consider someone a cultist or heretic especially if your basis is simply upon where they worship (be it mainline evangelicalism or pentecostalism etc.). I hope someone here can help answer your question directly.


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## Peairtach (Jan 9, 2013)

rbcbob said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > Are we talking about how much a person needed/needs to know, minimally, BC or AD or both?
> ...



I think the common knowledge BC and AD, is that the person must have a sure word of special revelation from God that He is willing and able to save those who exercise faith in Him. Faith must have something to rest upon. Those who don't have this sure word conveyed to them by God's messengers are ordinarily beyond the scope of His saving purposes.


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