# PCA Strategic Plan: Alternate credentialing paths



## raekwon (May 31, 2010)

Ladies & gents,

Just a heads-up -- some friends and I have started a collaborative blog (oh no, not another blog) about life & ministry in the PCA called Vintage73.

Anyway, we're discussing pros and cons of some of the points of the proposed Strategic Plan -- the latest being alternative paths to ordination as a Teaching Elder. We've got two posts up on the topic so far.

Alternative Credentialing: Do We Need New Avenues to Ordination? | Vintage73.com
The Importance of Discussing Alternative Credentialing Paths | Vintage73.com

Please feel free to join in on the discussion!


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## Andres (May 31, 2010)

Rae, I read the first post and it was definitely interesting. My first thoughts as a hispanic was that I was offended that we're not considered capable enough to go through the regular ordination paths. (I'm actually OPC but you get the point) But the article does have some good points, so I guess what I am saying is I really don't know. I will have to read the second article later.


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## Covenant Joel (May 31, 2010)

Very interesting, I've added the blog to my reader. I've been thinking about this topic quite a bit recently, as I'm finishing up my non-traditional MAR from RTS. I also have a few friends in a non-traditional situation, so I think it's a conversation that definitely needs to happen.


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## MRC (May 31, 2010)

Be careful with providing too many "alternate" ordination approaches. It is very easy to get a "don't need no education" approach to ministry that will hurt the whole church in the long run. Moving towards more of an "apprenticeship" approach could easily move towards an anti-intellectual bias in the whole denomination.


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## ericfromcowtown (May 31, 2010)

> The proposed PCA strategic plan has rightly identified a major problem in the denomination: too many people look like me



i'd like to think that the author would rephrase his opening sentence if given the opportunity, or at the very least qualify it. If your church is in a town or neighbourhood that's 90% white and your church is 90% white, then I don't see what the problem is. If, however, your neighbourhood is 50% white and your congregation is 90% white then perhaps that might give you cause to ask whether you're needlessly adding to the inescapable offense of the cross. However, to make a blanket statement like that above smells of white liberal guilt.


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## Montanablue (May 31, 2010)

ericfromcowtown said:


> > The proposed PCA strategic plan has rightly identified a major problem in the denomination: too many people look like me
> 
> 
> 
> i'd like to think that the author would rephrase his opening sentence if given the opportunity, or at the very least qualify it. If your church is in a town or neighbourhood that's 90% white and your church is 90% white, then I don't see what the problem is. If, however, your neighbourhood is 50% white and your congregation is 90% white then perhaps that might give you cause to ask whether you're needlessly adding to the inescapable offense of the cross. However, to make a blanket statement like that above smells of white liberal guilt.


 
I once heard a PCA pastor say that he thought the church should not be "multi ethnic" so much as it should be "indigenous" - that is that it should reflect the makeup of the community in which it rests. I thought that very wise.


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## raekwon (May 31, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > > The proposed PCA strategic plan has rightly identified a major problem in the denomination: too many people look like me
> ...


 
Yup.


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## Scott1 (May 31, 2010)

On one level, one can understand a certain appeal of this kind of reasoning.

But on a deeper level, these kind of proposals do not seem to further the peace and purity of the church.

It is also difficult to conceive of "alternate credentialing paths" in the Kingdom of God.


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## Covenant Joel (Jun 1, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> On one level, one can understand a certain appeal of this kind of reasoning.
> 
> But on a deeper level, these kind of proposals do not seem to further the peace and purity of the church.
> 
> It is also difficult to conceive of "alternate credentialing paths" in the Kingdom of God.



Why do you say this? In what way do they not further the peace and unity of the church? And why is it difficult to conceive of alternal credentialing paths in the KoG? There's certainly nothing in Scripture about the current credentialing path (B.A., then M.Div.). I'm not saying there's a problem with it in and of itself...it was designed to make sure men are well trained. And that is a very good thing, and that emphasis ought not to be diminished. But I fail to see why it is difficult to conceive that there can be other methods in which men are trained by the church to serve in the church--while yet holding to high standards as to their lives, knowledge, and biblical understanding.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------




Montanablue said:


> I once heard a PCA pastor say that he thought the church should not be "multi ethnic" so much as it should be "indigenous" - that is that it should reflect the makeup of the community in which it rests. I thought that very wise.



While that certainly is wise in one sense, it seems to me that we also ought to think about why our communities are the way that we are. Have many white, middle class folk retreated to communities where everybody's the same because they don't want to deal with the tough issues of diversity? I'm not saying that is the case across the board. But it's something that we ought to consider...perhaps we've insulated ourselves too much. I'm quite sure that this isn't the case across the board, in every location, but it's probably something that should be looked at.


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## Pergamum (Jun 1, 2010)

I don't see a clear credentialing path in the NT. Therefore to vary from this lack of a clear credentialing path is no problem. We have general principles, mostly of character, in the NT for the determination of leaders.


Minorities and the Reformed Churches




> But it can hardly be argued that such a degree of learning is a biblical requirement for ministry. The New Testament requirements do include the provision that an overseer be “able to teach” (1 Tim. 3:2), and we may infer from 2 Tim. 4:2 that he should be able to “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage…” Compare Tit. 1:9. Surely these responsibilities require some head-knowledge as well as heart-knowledge. But they do not require, even in our present-day culture, an A. B. or equivalent. The apostles themselves were perceived to be “unschooled, ordinary men” (Acts 4:13). With the exception of Paul, they were not trained in the rabbinic schools, let alone what we would now describe as the disciplines of the liberal arts. The New Testament writers express themselves, not in the Greek of the poets and philosophers, but in the Koine of the common people.
> 
> Western missionaries planting tribal churches in areas new to the gospel often encourage these churches to install indigenous leadership as early as possible. Such leaders need to know the Gospel and the basics of the Bible. But no one insists that a young church need wait until some members of the tribe earn A. B. degrees before they can become pastors or elders. Yet Reformed churches routinely insist on such educational requirements (with some slight flexibility) in preparing people for ordination in America.


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## TimV (Jun 1, 2010)

> middle class folk retreated to communities where everybody's the same because they don't want to deal with the tough issues of diversity?


Retreat?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 1, 2010)

Slightly amusing side note on "diversity".

In the PC(USA) you are directed by Church Law to have "diversity" in your congregation and leadership by correlating yourself to certain percentages. I remember a person from Presbytery coming to visit our church in middle-of-nowhere up-in-the-hills West Virginia and in an almost exasperated tone asking why we did not have any African-Americans or Hispanics in our congregation (assuming it was because we were racists of some sort, because you know all us backwoods people are like that). When we showed her the demographics of the county (literally 98% Caucasian, we had two non-white persons in my graduating class from High School and one was an exchange student from Brazil) she wanted to know what we could do to encourage more "minorities" to move to our county and join our church, like we had control over immigration patterns into the hill country of West Virginia. It was simply amazing watching her brain explode.


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## Covenant Joel (Jun 1, 2010)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Slightly amusing side note on "diversity".
> 
> In the PC(USA) you are directed by Church Law to have "diversity" in your congregation and leadership by correlating yourself to certain percentages. I remember a person from Presbytery coming to visit our church in middle-of-nowhere up-in-the-hills West Virginia and in an almost exasperated tone asking why we did not have any African-Americans or Hispanics in our congregation (assuming it was because we were racists of some sort, because you know all us backwoods people are like that). When we showed her the demographics of the county (literally 98% Caucasian, we had two non-white persons in my graduating class from High School and one was an exchange student from Brazil) she wanted to know what we could do to encourage more "minorities" to move to our county and join our church, like we had control over immigration patterns into the hill country of West Virginia. It was simply amazing watching her brain explode.


 
For sure, to try to push for diversity in a situation like that seems ridiculous. But I wonder (question, not really making a case for it, since I don't really know) if in other places--in suburbs near big cities possibly--white middle class people tend to end up in the same place, away from all others. At least, where I grew up, it seemed like that. Though granted, that's a huge generalization, and even if there is some truth to it, it may have happened years ago and may not be intentional now.


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## raekwon (Jun 1, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> It is also difficult to conceive of "alternate credentialing paths" in the Kingdom of God.


 
Huh?


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