# Gifts and Bribes.



## Pergamum (Mar 30, 2008)

Per Proverbs (15:27;17:23;18:16;19;6) what is a gift and what is a bribe. What is wise and what is corrupt? What to do if one is extorted by an evil government?

Is it okay to give incentives to grease social wheels but evil to use gifts to subvert justice (this could be drawn from a combined reading of all the passages).

How should we handle foreign efforts to procure extra "thank you money" when it comes time to deal with the gov't, or police, or immigration officials, or even the post office?


----------



## panta dokimazete (Mar 30, 2008)




----------



## Anton Bruckner (Mar 30, 2008)

look up the "Foreign Corrupt Practices Act" here
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

third world countries have these problems whereby if you want anything done you have to give money to the officials in charge. This goes from anything insignificant as getting a drivers license to as big as beating a murder rap. This is largely because of the economic conditions that reside in these countries.

I suggest you thread carefully since you have the testimony of Jesus to defend. You don't want a local police or magistrate saying, "I know Pergy, he is a briber just like the unbelievers".


----------



## Pergamum (Mar 30, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


>



I'll meet you one popcorn-eater  and raise you two more popcorn-eaters


----------



## Pergamum (Mar 30, 2008)

Keon: So is it just as easy as refusing to pay...even when you don't know what is an official fee and what is an unofficial fee? And when no fee is set and a number of agents work on commissions of their own making. Or when the official is on "off time" and has to either catch lunch or do your paper (i.e. buy the fella a handsome lunch if he decides to do your papers...)

I agree though, caution is to be taken..but what does caution mean in this case? 

I usually follow the advice of local Christians and do what they do...which is to give gifts in most cases.


----------



## Pergamum (Mar 30, 2008)

THE FCPA says that is is illegal to pay an official extra to do anything "contrary" to their duties. 

What about paying for them to actually do their duties? Or what about being forced to pay or else having belongings confiscated?

And what about tips? We do not violate the FCPA when we tip do we? And what is a tip?


----------



## Anton Bruckner (Mar 30, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I usually follow the advice of local Christians and do what they do...which is to give gifts in most cases.


you have potentially defaced the gospel here. Whether one likes it or not, these things are largely against the laws in almost all countries.

I know that cultural norms are usually at odds with these laws, but offering gifts is simply breaking the law.

If you are an American the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act permits you to give payments to officials to facilitate routine transactions, but disallows you from offering payments to get businesses and contracts. As an American you are free  but as a Christian you're not. And in regards to local law you are not since it is likely that state officers are magistrates are disallowed from taking payments to do their jobs.

As a brother I would suggest that you desist from these transactions further. When you offer these guys bribes or gifts they already deem you as corrupt and one of them.Third world countries are hell holes of temptations and you literally can get away with any crime as long as you have the right amount of money.


----------



## py3ak (Mar 30, 2008)

The US has bribes too --it has simply organized them, institutionalized them, and raised the price for them. Thus when new legislation required me to get a passport to travel to Mexico, there was an option to pay for "expedited processing", a pretty hefty sum as I recall. Now if I had been in Mexico, I could have gotten "expedited processing" on something by paying a much smaller sum, and instead of going to some upper-management spin doctor, it would go to contribute to the family economy of the underpaid wage slave stamping papers all day in a hot, sticky, fly-covered office, and therefore almost forced to despotic displays of his minuscule power in an attempt to overcome the hideous boredom of official life. 

Having said that, it is quite true that Paul did not give Felix a bribe, so it would be as well to consider what force that example would have for you in any given situation. But if bribes are not actively discouraged, then they are at least unofficially countenanced. My dad once took a man from the phone company to lunch to get him to investigate a problem with our line: the man did and was able to fix it, and later came to know the Lord: at least one instance, then, where giving someone an extra incentive to do their job was obviously not a too terribly evil testimony.


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Mar 30, 2008)

Sort of off-topic, but being on the receiving end of "gifts" from time-to-time, my company's unofficial policy is that so long as you can "eat it, wear it, or attend it" it isn't a bribe, and that anything that doesn't fall into one of those categories can't be accepted. I'm not sure if that rule of thumb stands up ethically, but it's the s.o.p. in the Canadian oil patch. I think that one's motivation says a lot. If you're giving a small token as a gift of thanks, that's one thing, but if you're expecting that your gift is going to result in benefits other than good will in return then I think that you're in thin ice territory.


----------



## Anton Bruckner (Mar 30, 2008)

ericfromcowtown said:


> If you're giving a small token as a gift of thanks, that's one thing, but if you're expecting that your gift is going to result in benefits other than good will in return then I think that you're in thin ice territory.





in addition in these countries, you will not get the desired routine benefit that your tax dollars is providing if you do not pay the state official a "gift/bribe".


----------



## Pergamum (Mar 31, 2008)

Slippery said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I usually follow the advice of local Christians and do what they do...which is to give gifts in most cases.
> ...




"Defacing the Gospel" is strong language for someone who barely knows the situations here.

Giving gifts to facilitate transactions (i.e. gifts for service....a tip) seems okay by the FCPA and also by the Scripture;




Proverbs 19:6 - Many seek the favor of a generous man,
and everyone is a friend to a man who gives gifts.


Proverbs 18:16 - A man’s gift makes room for him
and brings him before the great.

Proverbs 17:8 - A bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of the one who gives it;
wherever he turns he prospers.

Other pertinent passages ( in which there is almost always a mention of using money to pervert justice, not merely to gain a favor):

Ex 23:8; Job 15:34; 1 Sam 8:3; Ps 26:10; Isa 1:23; 33:15; Ezek 22:12; 1 Sam 12:3; Am 5:12; Am 2:6.

INSTANCES OF
Delilah
Jud 16:5
Samuel's sons
See above
The false prophet, Shemaiah
Ne 6:10-13
Ben-hadad
1Ki 15:19
Haman bribes Ahasuerus to destroy the Jews
Es 3:9
Chief priests bribe Judas
Mt 26:15; 27:3-9; Mr 14:11; Lu 22:5
Soldiers bribed to declare that the disciples stole the body
of Jesus
Mt 28:12-15
Governor Felix seeks a bribe from Paul
Ac 24:26


Proverbs 15 also says that he who hates bribes will live...


If you tip a waiter after his service is done, why not tip BEFORE to ensure that good service will be done?

It appears from the Proverbs that gifts (tips) are okay to give in exchange for service, but that one cannot give or receive anything to subvert justice...Proverbs 17:23, "The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice."



Actually the ANE culture of the Bible seemed to permit things that the US culture would deem as unjust, i.e. exchanging gifts for favor, etc. Are you sure that you are admoinishing me based on the Scripture or your culture?



Further thoughts:

When Jacob met Esau and wanted to curb his wrath, what did he do? Gave a gift. Proverbs 21:14 says, "A gift in secret subdues anger and a bribe in the bosom, strong wrath." 

Have you ever given a large tip in anticipation of extra-good service?

Have you ever offered to throw in something extra if processes were expedited (perfectly legal).

When going before the presence of a local ruler, do you see the benefit of giving a gift such as candy from America or a "token of appreciation" for one's new aquaintance?


----------

