# Going out to eat on Sunday



## Reed

Are you ok with going out to eat at a restaurant after church on Sunday?


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## sastark

I think this topic has been discussed before, but...

No - but not because it violates my conscience, but because it violates the Law of God.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by sastark_
> I think this topic has been discussed before, but...
> 
> No - but not because it violates my conscience, but because it violates the Law of God.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

At my church we always eat either at the church building after service or at people's houses.


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## Arch2k

Is this something that the church would (should) enforce if members do not adhere to?

I personally do not eat out on the sabbath, but I know many who do. I am often looked upon as "legalistic" because I tell them they are in sin if they do eat out (in all normal circumstances). How does one enforce such a law in today's church?


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XXI:



> VIII. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations,(o) but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.(p)
> 
> (o) Exod. 20:8; Exod. 16:23, 25, 26, 29, 30; Exod. 31:15, 16, 17; Isa. 58:13; *Neh. 13:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22.*
> (p) Isa. 58:13; Matt. 12:1 to 13.



Westminster Larger Catechism:



> Q117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
> A117: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[1] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[2] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy)[3] in the public and private exercises of God's worship:[4] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[5]
> 
> 1. Exod. 20:8, 10
> 2. Exod. 16:25-28; Neh. 13:15-22; Jer. 17:21-22
> 
> 3. Matt. 12:1-13
> 4. Isa. 58:18; 66:23; Luke 4:16; Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:1-2; Psa. ch. 92; Lev. 23:3
> 5. Exod. 16:22, 25-26, 29; 20:8; Luke 23:54, 56; *Neh. 13:19*
> 
> Q118: Why is the charge of keeping the sabbath more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors?
> A118: The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own.[1]
> 
> 1. Exod. 20:10; 23:12; Josh. 24:15; *Neh. 13:15, 17*; Jer. 17:20-22





Neh. 13.15-22:



> 15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.
> 16 There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.
> 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day?
> 18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
> 19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.
> 20 So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice.
> 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath.
> 22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.



[Edited on 5-26-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## crhoades

Oh yeah?!!? Well Israel was a _theocracy_. 

Sorry...had to do that. This has actually been an aspect of spiritual growth for me wrestling through this issue. Can't say that I fully understand it with all of its ins and outs yet, but until I do, I'm trying to err on the side of not doing anything (and keeping it imperectly still...Praise God for Christ's imputed righteousness!).


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## govols

Going out and probably will work in the garden.


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## Matthew French

If it is not lawful for us to work on Sunday, then I just can't understand why it would be lawful to solicit the personal service of someone else.

A contractor was putting in a patio at my house last week and was supposed to finish on Saturday. He couldn't quite get it done and assured me that it would be done Sunday afternoon. He was shocked when I told him that I would not let him work at my house on Sunday. Not a single customer has ever told him that. Sad.


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## Solo Christo

Hello Matthew and welcome! Glad to see you are in such a good mood!


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## staythecourse

Our church eats together on the Lord's day as well and most if not all of those that don't eat with the church, stay home and cook inviting others over to eat. Many will stay at the church the whole day from 9:30 to 7:30. that may sound extreme but not when service is over at 12:30 then finish eating by 2:30 only to have service again at 6:00. My 30 minute ride home and back keeps me at church often.

I confess I am trying to break the habit of grabbing a burger on the way home for dinner because I interpret the Scripture that my "hired manservants" a.k.a. Mickey D employees - are to be given rest, too.


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## sastark

Welcome to the Board, Matthew!


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## biblelighthouse

Hi Matthew! Welcome to Puritanland!


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## fredtgreco

Welcome Matthew! I don't know, but we may have met one of the times I was at Christ the Word. David is a good friend.


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## govols

> _Originally posted by Solo Christo_
> Hello Matthew and welcome! Glad to see you are in such a good mood!



I lost my mood ring earlier in the year Matthew so I don't how I feel.



Don't pay any attention to Mike's Dawg, he's got a bad case of fleas.


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## Laura

I'm going to offer a differing opinion, but let it be known that I am in full agreement with the Westminster standards and take the Lord's Day very seriously. I was wrestling this question a few weeks ago, and a friend suggested something: Since the restaurants are going to be open anyway (bear with me, I know that sounds fishy) - really, they would, even if entire churches banned their members from going to them - we might look at this a different way and see it as a manner of "plundering the Egyptians," so to speak, as we are sojourners in Babylon. Unbelieving chefs and waitresses are, of course, not going to regard the Sabbath law, and if they are believers, it is their responsibility to repent. (Though I grant that if the topic came up with your waiter/waitress and you found out that s/he were a Christian, then it would be your responsibility to let them know that they're breaking God's law.) Basically, this is what I think: opening a restaurant on the Sabbath is certainly a sin, since it qualifies as an unnecessary business, but how does it follow that we are sinning if we go out and take advantage of a restaurant's service to celebrate the day with our family and friends? 

A possible objection might be that the fourth commandment includes an explicit command to keep one's servants (and even animals) from working. But as such, those servants fall under the head of the house's responsibility - workers at restaurants do not. 

Anyway, I would see this as being one of the issues concerning the Sabbath that comes down to personal conviction. If you cannot have somebody work for you on the Sabbath with a clear conscience, then by all means, don't. 

(By the way, is this the best forum for this?)


[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Laura]


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## SolaScriptura

I am one who affirms that the Lord's Day should be a day of rest from our regular works to focus on the worship of God. I would contend that much of the "œstuff" that we do on Sunday dishonors God and robs us of the benefits and blessings that a right observance of the Lord´s Day is intended to bring. So do not think that I am some antinomian who has no regard for the Lord´s Day.
At the same time, however, I cannot accept the strict Sabbatarian position for several reasons (I am sure that none of these reasons will satisfy those who are strict Sabbatarians any more than their arguments would satisfy those who are not!) though for the sake of time I will only list 2"¦

First, the 4th Commandment (which is moral "“ though Turretin says that it is both moral and ceremonial), simply tells us to keep the Sabbath holy. It is left to the ceremonial/civil laws to unpack what that meant for the people of the Old Covenant. WCF 19.3 and 19.4 indicate that these are not binding on us. The NT does not introduce commands telling us what we must do/not do to take the place of those Old Covenant civil and ceremonial laws. Thus we are left with the general moral principle of "œkeeping the Lord´s Day holy." Several things may be inferred from the idea of keeping it "œholy," but given the Confession´s own admission of the fact that the civil and ceremonial laws are now abrogated and the lack of new/replacement laws in the NT seem to indicate that NT believers have a much greater degree of personal freedom (and responsibility!) to exercise in keeping the Lord´s Day holy.

Second, I always chuckle when I hear people go into the minutae to prescribe what actions are/aren´t allowed on Sunday. Beyond an appeal to "œcommon sense" it is hard to determine what is a true work of mercy or a true work of necessity - both of which are allowed by even the most strict Sabbatarian (but only) because WCF 23.8 says so. I, but thankfully not only I, see how it can be construed as an excellent work/demonstration of mercy (even if the one performing it does not perceive it as such) for someone such as a restaurant cook or a waitress to perform their work on the Lord´s Day. Why? This allows my wife (and countless other godly Christians) to truly rest from that which she does every other day of the week: cook/prepare the food and then clean up the mess after we eat.

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## C. Matthew McMahon

Just to be difficult, if we cannot go out to eat because it violates the Lord's Day, can we solicit the services of the electric company or the telephone company on those days (any of the utilities)? or can we get gas if we are ready to run out on our way to church, or ought we to simply leave earlier to walk? Are we REALLY talking about inconvenience or Sabbath keeping? Thus, is it OK to work for a restaurant to get a meal if you are homeless on the Sabbath? (i.e. can we pick heads of grain becuase we are hungry?)

[Edited on 5-27-2005 by webmaster]


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## Robin

Ben and Matt --- great points, my brothers! 

Thanking God, for our liberty in Christ!

Robin


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## biblelighthouse

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> Ben and Matt --- great points, my brothers!
> 
> Thanking God, for our liberty in Christ!
> 
> Robin



 to Ben, Matt, and Robin!

I especially like Ben's comment about his wife not having to cook, clean up, etc. on Sunday. --- This is precisely the same reason that my family and I get food to-go every Sunday after church. . . . After struggling with with this question for a while, I came to the same conclusion as Ben, that we could keep the Sabbath *better* by getting food from Wendys or Burger King, rather than having my wife go to the trouble of cooking lunch on Sundays.

After all, not only should I rest on Sundays . . . my wife should too!


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## Jie-Huli

It is quite feasible for a family to make a simple and healthy meal without spending an excess of time and energy on it. I do not believe it is right for Christians to partake of restaurant food on the Lord's Day in order to have more of a Sabbath themselves, thus taking part in, and benefiting from, others breaking the Sabbath by engaging in a regular day's employment on it.

For one family to make a meal for itself takes just a bit of time. The family members will make the food and eat in a reasonable amount of time, and then continue in the worship of the Lord. But when large numbers of families and people go to a restaurant to eat, though the time any one family spends on the meal may be quite short, when you add up all the families who go and partake of this, the chefs and waiters at the restaurant are being put to a full day of work, and thus are kept from setting the day apart as God's law requires. 

As for "plundering Egyptians", I know of no example in Scripture where it is allowed for us to participate in and benefit from other people's sins just because they would sin just the same with or without us.

Let us take no part in such things.

Blessings,

Jie-huli


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## BobVigneault

It seems that everytime we discuss the sabbath we spent an unbalanced time discuss what is not allowed on the sabbath. This culminates in two unfortunate results.
1. We end up looking like the School of Shimmai or some equally pharisaical group. They wouldn't allow a rabbi to throw warm water over himself for fear the vapor might clean the doorpost. Admittedly I'm using reductio absurdum here but we are heading there anyway.
2. We use way too much mental energy to describe in infinite detail what is not allowed and neglect the higher spiritual thoughts, meditations and activities that ought to be our focus on the sabbath. 

I just don't see Jesus giving any teaching on all the things that we shouldn't do lest we violate the sabbath. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. 
My two cents. (Actually not even a brass farthing.)


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## VirginiaHuguenot

This is a post I wrote earlier this year on a separate thread which I think is relevant to this thread:



> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> It's not possible in our Sabbath-breaking society to abstain from every thing that others do on the Lord's Day which they shouldn't be doing. Mail travels on the Lord's Day (and in some cases is delivered on the Lord's Day); does that mean one shouldn't read the mail that is delivered on Monday? I know that Stonewall Jackson was very meticulous in this regard, but it is not possible to filter out the sin of others in every respect. We should focus first and foremost on ourselves and whether what it is that we are doing in fact breaks the Lord's Day by intruding our own desires and pleasures upon it.
> 
> I agree that true Sabbath-keeping is not a list of do's and don'ts, but is exemplified in Augustine's famous saying, "Love God as do as thou wilt."
> 
> However, we can summarize the Ten Commandments as "Love God and love your neighbor" and still recognize that it is precisely a list of do's and don'ts. We need to think of God's law on both levels (the practical and the abstract).
> 
> We ought to examine ourselves as to what is so important that it would hinder our communion with the Lord on His holy day. The balance between Pharisaical legalism and antinomian looseness is a fine line to walk, but walk it we must. That is what it means to be holy in a fallen world.
> 
> [Edited on 17-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## BobVigneault

Well put, well said, rich words.


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## crhoades

Without getting into all of the ins and outs of this discussion so far as to the levels one will actually do something on the sabbath...

A very practical suggestion for people who are trying to keep it:
Slow cookers/crock pots...Put a roast in the night before. Cook chili in it. soups...We have a great cook book with a ton of slow cooker recipes. Come home from church and a hot meal is already waiting. It also makes it easy to have people over after church. 

Also...use paper plates and styrofoam cups too for less clean-up hassles.

[Edited on 5-27-2005 by crhoades]


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## Matthew French

These conversations always degenerate into, "Well, what about doing this on Sunday?" The electric and gas companies are always dragged into them as well. Rather than wrangle over how far of an extreme we should take things to, why don't we rather do what's easy: Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.

If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?

My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.

By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.

Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Matthew French_
> These conversations always degenerate into, "Well, what about doing this on Sunday?" The electric and gas companies are always dragged into them as well. Rather than wrangle over how far of an extreme we should take things to, why don't we rather do what's easy: Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.
> 
> If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?
> 
> My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.
> 
> By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.
> 
> Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.



 

"Malls are going to be open anyway"

"They are going to play that professional baseball game anyway"

and so on, and so on...


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## Arch2k

The primary reason I do not eat out on the Sabbath is not that it causes others to work (although that is definately an important reason), but it is that *I* am engaging in business. I am buying something. I am exchanging money for services rendered. In light of Neh. 13.15-22, this is sinful. We are to rest from these actions during the sabbath, and are to engage ourselves the whole day in private and public worship. 

Can we come up with exceptions (i.e. running out of gas on the way to church) with the rule? Probably. The point is that we can prepare all of these things before hand. I try to fill up Saturday if I am low on gas, and try to make sure I have something quick to prepare for meals on Sunday. This allows me to refrain from business deals with the world, and more time to prepare for bible study in the evening.


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## panta dokimazete

Ah, the never ending struggle between Law and license... (**winces in anticipation**)


Mark 2 

27And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 


Galatians 5

19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; *against such things there is no law.*

-JD


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## Poimen

> _Originally posted by Matthew French_
> These conversations always degenerate into, "Well, what about doing this on Sunday?" The electric and gas companies are always dragged into them as well. Rather than wrangle over how far of an extreme we should take things to, why don't we rather do what's easy: Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.
> 
> If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?
> 
> My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.
> 
> By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.
> 
> Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.



My thoughts exactly. Well stated...


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## NaphtaliPress

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> My thoughts exactly. Well stated...


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## Robin

In an effort to make this thread somewhat useful....

Here is one of the best sermons I ever heard about "Entering God's Sabbath Rest" by Michael Horton:

http://www.christreformed.org/resources/sermons_lectures/00000057.shtml?main

May it edify...

Robin


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## Batman

What about "working" in the sense that you're serving your neighbor in some way...helping him move, paint, tear down a fence, etc? Do we say "no" to "working" on Sundays even when it means serving our non-believing friends? How about inviting them over to watch a football game at your house? Or a BBQ? Some of us work on Saturdays, and Sundays are our only day to hang out and celebrate life with our friends.


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## Matthew French

Dear Batman,

Your complaint that working on Saturday only leaves you with Sunday to hang out with friends was covered by God with the, "six days you shall labor" part of the commandment. We ARE supposed to work on Saturdays.

Superheros may be exempt from ceasing to work on Sundays anyway, though. Most churches make exceptions for police, firefighters, etc. So long as your works are acts of service, I think you're OK.


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## LadyFlynt

Baseball is not an act of service


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## Arch2k

> _Originally posted by Batman_
> What about "working" in the sense that you're serving your neighbor in some way...helping him move, paint, tear down a fence, etc? Do we say "no" to "working" on Sundays even when it means serving our non-believing friends? How about inviting them over to watch a football game at your house? Or a BBQ? Some of us work on Saturdays, and Sundays are our only day to hang out and celebrate life with our friends.



We should not disobey God's command to refrain from our works and recreations on the Sabbath to please men. If your neighbor needs help on Sunday, one could just as easily use the opportunity to show the difference of Christianity from the rest of the world by refraining from work. I am in now way discouraging helping people, but if at all possible, not on the Lord's day.

I myself work six days a week. That is the biblical principle. Work 6, rest 1. That has never changed. I in fact think that it is dishonoring to regularly work 5, devote 1 to self, and 1 to the Lord. This is not the biblical model. The Lord has given us 6 days to do all our work, and recreate, and graciously given us 1 day of rest from those activities. We must realize that this is for our benefit, and out of obedience to this command, glory will be brought to the Lord, and we will rejuvenate ourselves.

Serving our non-believing friends should always be done. That being said, the Lord's day is not one of work, but there are many other ways in which you could "serve" them. Share the gospel with them. Discuss Christ and the rest that only he can provide. The Westminster Confession here is useful, as it limits these activities to acts of "necessity and mercy." Acts of necessity are like feeding your animals. The bible explicitly says that this is to be done regardless of what day it is. Mercy should also be provided when situations present themselves. Football games do not fall under these categories.

The Sabbath is mainly a day of worship, not celebrating our "life with our friends." Homage to God is due explicitly on this day. We must keep him in all our thoughts and deeds. The rest of the week should fit the situations you have provided. 

Blessings,


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## Batman

thank you for your insight, but I don't share your view. I fully respect it, but don't agree. 

celebrating my life with my friends, kids, etc...is in my view, not only an act of worship, but also paying homage to God. For example, going surfing with my buddies and praising God upon the waves is not only restful to me, but also an opportunity for me to worship God. Playing soccer with my kids on Sunday is relaxing, and also an opportunity to praise God for my kids, health, creation, etc. I do my best not to "work" on Sundays, but if a buddy asks me to move a couch with him on the Sabbath, I'm not going to say, "I can't help you today, but let me tell you about Jesus, instead." That is not the message I want to send my non-believing neighbors about my faith. I realize many, if not most, on this site will disagree with me, and I'm fine with agreeing not to agree on this issue.


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## BobVigneault

Danny,
I used to have the very same convictions that you seem to have....


and I still do. I love the sabbath. 

(Whispering: except I'm a seventh dayer, so I try not to work on Saturday but this frees me to move my Sunday keeping brother's refrigerator while hes praying and reading his scriptures.)


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## tdowns

*Thanks*



> _Originally posted by Robin_
> In an effort to make this thread somewhat useful....
> 
> Here is one of the best sermons I ever heard about "Entering God's Sabbath Rest" by Michael Horton:
> 
> http://www.christreformed.org/resources/sermons_lectures/00000057.shtml?main
> 
> May it edify...
> 
> Robin



Thanks Robin, I enjoyed it.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

I'm not sure the answer was adequately given yet.

We eat at home, and use electricity to use the stove, microwave, slow cooking pot, by the electricity, and use electricity for refrigeration.

Now really, this is an act of _convenience_ because of the time period in which we live. 200 years ago and previous there was no "refrigeration in every home, or electricity. 

Should we then shut off the breakers on Saturday night? (That would be horrible for people living in Florida without air conditioning!)

How much of the commandment do you think applies to that situation?

Are we begging the question based on convenience?

Remember, I'm definitely not tossing the 4th command as you all probably know. Just making us think through it a bit more.


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## Arch2k

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> I'm not sure the answer was adequately given yet.
> 
> We eat at home, and use electricity to use the stove, microwave, slow cooking pot, by the electricity, and use electricity for refrigeration.
> 
> Now really, this is an act of _convenience_ because of the time period in which we live. 200 years ago and previous there was no "refrigeration in every home, or electricity.
> 
> Should we then shut off the breakers on Saturday night? (That would be horrible for people living in Florida without air conditioning!)
> 
> How much of the commandment do you think applies to that situation?
> 
> Are we begging the question based on convenience?
> 
> Remember, I'm definitely not tossing the 4th command as you all probably know. Just making us think through it a bit more.



Using electricity is not doing business on the Sabbath (unless you pay the electricity bill). Causing unbelievers to work is one issue. I honestly don't know where I stand on this yet, in light of Kline's (et al) view of the 4th commandment as sacramental. However, one thing I believe is sinful (and explicitly stated in scripture and the WCF) is trading, or doing business. This is engaging oneself in work on the Sabbath.

The way I look at it, if the Nehamiah's admonition is valid, no business can be done on Sunday.

NEH 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. 16 There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? 18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. 19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. 22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.


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## Joseph Ringling

> _Originally posted by Matthew French_
> These conversations always degenerate into, "Well, what about doing this on Sunday?" The electric and gas companies are always dragged into them as well. Rather than wrangle over how far of an extreme we should take things to, why don't we rather do what's easy: Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.
> 
> If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?
> 
> My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.
> 
> By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.
> 
> Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.



 Glad to see another fellow Toledoan.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

Jeff,

Would it not be doing business on the Sabbath to use their electricity?

If I use their electricity, and then just "pay it" another time, how is this not indirectly "doing business" for goods I need to use on the Sabbath?

Would it fall under necessity? 




> Using electricity is an extreme example.



Of course it is an extreme example that every single one of us has to deal with. Though it is an extreme example, it still is, unfortunately, an *example*.

Or is it?



> Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.



I'm with you on this, please do not think I'm not. I'm just stirring the pot as to how far our comfort level goes and how far we "really" take the commandment, if I can say, *seriously*. 

How serious are we with ALL examples? 

[Edited on 5-28-2005 by webmaster]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

I believe utility services such as electricity, telephone, gas, water, cable, internet all fall under "works of necessity." Yes, it is true that none of these services existed 200 years ago. People can survive without any of them. 

However, the purpose of the Sabbath is not to bring man back to the level of the Stone Age. With the telephone I can have a godly conversation with a long-distance friend or family member; with electricity I can use light to read my Bible, cook a meal for my wife, and not worry about extremes in heat or cold for my family; with cable I can check the Weather Channel when I see potential funnel clouds outside; with the internet I can engage in godly conversation with my Puritan Board brethren. With a modern, gas-filled car I can drive to church instead of walking. 

Do these things count as unncessary works because they were not available to generations before? Certainly temptations exist with respect to some or fall of these services to use them in ways that go beyond works of mercy or necessity. However, true Sabbath-keeping is not about an Amish-style withdrawal from the world. Just as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, so likewise the things of this world may be used to promote Sabbath-keeping rather than be an occasion of stumbling blocks.

[Edited on 5-28-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> Without getting into all of the ins and outs of this discussion so far as to the levels one will actually do something on the sabbath...
> 
> A very practical suggestion for people who are trying to keep it:
> Slow cookers/crock pots...Put a roast in the night before. Cook chili in it. soups...We have a great cook book with a ton of slow cooker recipes. Come home from church and a hot meal is already waiting. It also makes it easy to have people over after church.
> 
> Also...use paper plates and styrofoam cups too for less clean-up hassles.
> 
> [Edited on 5-27-2005 by crhoades]



Excellent suggestions, Chris!


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## Arch2k

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I believe utility services such as electricity, telephone, gas, water, cable, internet all fall under "works of necessity." Yes, it is true that none of these services existed 200 years ago. People can survive without any of them.
> 
> However, the purpose of the Sabbath is not to bring man back to the level of the Stone Age. With the telephone I can have a godly conversation with a long-distance friend or family member; with electricity I can use light to read my Bible, cook a meal for my wife, and not worry about extremes in heat or cold for my family; with cable I can check the Weather Channel when I see potential funnel clouds outside; with the internet I can engage in godly conversation with my Puritan Board brethren. With a modern, gas-filled car I can drive to church instead of walking.
> 
> Does these things count as unncessary works because they were not available to generations before? Certainly temptations exist with respect to some or fall of these services to use them in ways that go beyond works of mercy or necessity. However, true Sabbath-keeping is not about an Amish-style withdrawal from the world. Just as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, so likewise the things of this world may be used to promote Sabbath-keeping rather than be an occasion of stumbling blocks.
> 
> [Edited on 5-28-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]



Thanks for saying it better than I could!


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