# Regulative Principle: Clapping, Raising Hands, ETC.



## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2010)

ANSWER ONLY IF YOU HOLD TO THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE OF WORSHIP.

What is your view on clapping in worship and raising of hands?

Clapping: (Ps. 47:1, Ps. 97:8) 
Raise your hands in worship (Ps. 63:4, Ps. 134:2)


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## BlackCalvinist (Dec 6, 2010)

Strict or loose RPW ?


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 6, 2010)

I hold to the RPW (anything not commanded, forbidden, but all commanded, required) I think the Psalms, in general, are the Lord's guide to worship - any activity that did not explicitly pass as a result of the New Covenant is still commanded. Frequency and duration is matter of decency and order. I know many here would not agree with this perspective, but I believe it is defensible.


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## Hamalas (Dec 6, 2010)

The key to me is that such activities should be done _corporately_. Too often today we'll find one or two people clapping to a song, or bowing on their needs, because this is how _they_ feel the Spirit leading. While I can appreciate that in private worship, the idea behind our Sunday mornings is unity and corporateness. So, in that context, I don't have a big problem with clapping (not in applause, but with music), kneeling, or raising hands.


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## LeeJUk (Dec 6, 2010)

It's in the book of psalms. Its hard to see how anyone can say its wrong or un-biblical unless you do scriptural gymnastics. In my opinion people are uncomfortable with it because its usually practiced by loose evangelicals and charismatics and we've overreacted.

In terms of corporate unity. I think the 2-3 individuals doing the clapping/raising hands are perfectly in their right to do so. They at the end of the day are following the biblical example and you should be joining in with them, not the other way round. I don't think it needs to be the whole congregation doing it for it to be justified either. It was practiced in the temple, and I think we'd be a bit naive to think that EVERYONE in the congregation did this at the same time, and yet God approves it and doesn't have our same concerns about it causing distractions.

I find the whole distraction argument a bit of an attempt to take away the plain example of scripture because certain folks are uncomfortable with it. It says it, do it or don't do it its up to you.


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## au5t1n (Dec 6, 2010)

LeeJUk said:


> It's in the book of psalms. Nuff said.
> If anyone says its wrong its hard to see how you can say that without doing scriptural gymnastics as many have done.


 
It would first need to be shown that the context of those references was corporate synagogue worship. Otherwise all one can conclude is that one may clap to the Lord out in the field.

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BlackCalvinist said:


> Strict...RPW ?


 
Is that like saying "ATM machine"?


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 6, 2010)

We have people raise their hands in worship in my congregation. It is subtle. I doubt many know (I see these kinds of things from the sacred desk, you know.) I don't think that we can raise issue with reverent gestures of worship as long as it is descent and orderly.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Dec 6, 2010)

I think they are absolutely fine. Personally I don't raise my hands often or clap much because I oft get off beat but if one wishes to do so them they may. To reject the practice because it is not "decent and in order" is silly because you are defining something the Bible leaves somewhat loose.


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## jjraby (Dec 6, 2010)

As a presbyterian, I find any show of emotion unacceptable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Phil D. (Dec 6, 2010)

jjraby said:


> As a presbyterian, I find any show of emotion unacceptable.


 
Agreed. We must protect our reputation as "the frozen chosen" at all costs...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Wayne (Dec 6, 2010)

Arms stiffly at one's side the whole time.

Can I get an "Amen" ?!?!


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## Phil D. (Dec 6, 2010)

Wayne said:


> Arms stiffly at one's side the whole time.
> 
> Can I get an "Amen" ?!?!


 
I think you already know what my reaction to audibly saying "Amen" would be. But might I also caution against using so many exclamation points in your writing... it too suggests emotion...


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## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2010)

So back to the OP without getting on a tangent of the frozen chosen, etc., there have been a few posts saying yes we can do such things. I appreciate taking into account the congregation into account. If it is commanded in worship, shouldn't we all do it. In those churches where the RPW is so highly thought of, I haven't seen hand clapping, hands raised, kneeling. So what's going on there? Are they in sin for not doing it? If it is commanded, it must be done, if it is not commanded it isn't to be done. There isn't a well some can do it and some don't have to.  Yes, in this whole conversation the heart is most important, however, what does God command. Does He actually command these things for OUR corporate worship? If so, then it must be that we all do these things and if not we are in sin.


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## KMK (Dec 6, 2010)

If clapping is sinful during worship then my one year old will have to undergo church discipline.


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## au5t1n (Dec 6, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> So back to the OP without getting on a tangent of the frozen chosen, etc., there have been a few posts saying yes we can do such things. I appreciate taking into account the congregation into account. If it is commanded in worship, shouldn't we all do it. In those churches where the RPW is so highly thought of, I haven't seen hand clapping, hands raised, kneeling. So what's going on there? Are they in sin for not doing it? If it is commanded, it must be done, if it is not commanded it isn't to be done. There isn't a well some can do it and some don't have to.  Yes, in this whole conversation the heart is most important, however, what does God command. Does He actually command these things for OUR corporate worship? If so, then it must be that we all do these things and if not we are in sin.


 
Kneeling and standing in prayer have strong biblical precedent as general postures for prayer. I can see raising of hands falling into this category if done with prudence. I have a hard time imagining how clapping would fit in corporate worship without bringing undue attention to particular individuals, Pastor Klein's one-year-old excepted.


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## Phil D. (Dec 6, 2010)

austinww said:


> I have a hard time imagining how clapping would fit in corporate worship without bringing undue attention to particular individuals,



But isn't this potential abuse, in the end, a separate question from that of "is it a biblical part of worship"?


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## au5t1n (Dec 6, 2010)

Phil D. said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > I have a hard time imagining how clapping would fit in corporate worship without bringing undue attention to particular individuals,
> ...


 
It's not an abuse, but the thing itself. Clapping alone will distract. Always. If you want the whole congregation to clap during the singing, you'll probably need warrant from Scripture for this. I could be wrong.


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## Phil D. (Dec 6, 2010)

austinww said:


> Phil D. said:
> 
> 
> > austinww said:
> ...



Even granting your point for the sake of discussion, my question remains: Is hand-clapping a biblical part of worship?


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## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2010)

That's what i'm asking phil!!!!


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## au5t1n (Dec 6, 2010)

Phil D. said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > Phil D. said:
> ...


 
Yes, the psalms quoted demonstrate that clapping for worship has been done with approval before in some context. The question is whether (a) an individual should clap alone in corporate worship during the singing or (b) a whole congregation should be instructed to clap during a song. The psalms quoted do not seem to demonstrate this to me. Actually, the second one does not mention clapping at all.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 6, 2010)

Would someone please define loose and strict RPW?


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## Pergamum (Dec 6, 2010)

Amens or head nods can also distract.


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## Phil D. (Dec 6, 2010)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Would someone please define loose and strict RPW?



Holding to a loose RPW is like preferring to eat a larger quarter-pounder...

Seriously though, it is interesting to see what Matthew Henry commented on Psalm 47:1 ("For the choir director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. Clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy." [ESV])

The scope of this psalm is to stir us up to praise God, to stir up all people to do so; and, I. We are directed in what manner to do it, publicly, cheerfully, and intelligently (v. 1, 6, 7)...What they are called upon to do: "O clap your hands, in token of your own joy and satisfaction in what God has done for you, of your approbation, nay, your admiration, of what God has done in general, and of your indignation against all the enemies of God's glory, Job 27:23. Clap your hands, as men transported with pleasure, that cannot contain themselves; shout unto God, not to make him hear (his ear is not heavy), but to make all about you hear, and take notice how much you are affected and filled with the works of God. Shout with the voice of triumph in him, and in his power and goodness, that others may join with you in the triumph." *Note, Such expressions of pious and devout affections as to some may seem indecent and imprudent ought not to be hastily censured and condemned, much less ridiculed, because, if they come from an upright heart, God will accept the strength of the affection and excuse the weakness of the expressions of it.* (in loc cit.)​
Does anyone know where a prominent pre-19th century Reformed personality specifically discouraged or taught against public hand-clapping?


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 7, 2010)

Applause has no place in our worship.

If you think accompaniment on instruments is OK, then you should probably admit "clapping" as instrumental. Or vice versa. But I would tend to view this a cultural component, which It seems to me, I've seen in places like Africa. It's a circumstance that keeps the congregation together, acting as one.

Which brings us to my last comment: The gathered body should be functioning in unity/unison. It's one thing to be led in one thing by a leader. It's analogous for the body to speak with one voice, ala songs (I'm not disparaging the quality of vocal parts here; it's still one _harmonious_ act). So, the clapping (if it is permitted) should not be "everyone doing his own thing." Same for "Amen," in my opinion. Do it as one body, or do it in your heart. Like "tongues speaking," it's not appropriate if all it does is draw attention to yourself

As for posture, including raising the hands, again it should be done together, or not done. The individual is not there alone! It's not just "me and my private religious ecstasy." And, according to Paul, the experience of the body at worship (and not just some affected individual) is some portion of what strikes the unbeliever who comes in, and is captured by the Spirit. "God is in you, of a truth!" We are the assembled, citizens of the kingdom, the martial host (the Word is the sword, don't panic) present and accounted for, ready to be drilled in the discipline of Christ.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Romans922 (Dec 7, 2010)

What do you guys think of this:

Psalm 47:1 shows a picture of a coronation of a king (not worship) and the joy celebrated when one made king --> pointing to us that we ought to be joyful (like that) at Christ being King. But this isn't during or on the occasion of public worship, so it applies not here.

Psalm 97:8 - is about being glad and rejoicing because the Lord reigns. I don't see clapping there.

Ps. 63:4 - this is a Psalm of David when he was in the wilderness. Not exactly commanding us to raise hands in worship. The Psalms are sung in worship (at least should be) to show us how to live as believers (God's people), but not necessarily during corporate worship. This text is just proving that point.

Psalm 134:2 - This goes more along the lines of 1 Ti. 2:8 because the servants here are referring to the priests. They were to lift their hands in prayer just as Pastors should do in worship.


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## rbcbob (Dec 7, 2010)

Contra_Mundum said:


> The individual is not there alone! It's not just "me and my private religious ecstasy."



I appreciate Bruce's sober words here. We are, in corporate worship, to do all things decently and in order. The Scriptures, for example, contain a variety of postures in private prayer: prostrate, kneeling, standing, sitting, eyes closed, eyes open, arms raised, etc. Any of these are left to the discretion of the private worshipper in his "closet". But when we come together as the church *εν εκκλησια* we check our personal preferences at the door and cooperate towards unity and order. Neither should we give vent to unbridled passions via outward expressions which would distract the brother or sister around us, still less in any way that would call attention to ourselves. 1 Corinthians 14:32 "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."


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## Pergamum (Dec 7, 2010)

So giving the preacher an amen is out?


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## rbcbob (Dec 7, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> So giving the preacher an amen is out?



Why would the Scripturally warranted affirmation of the truth of what is preached be ruled out? It is rather assumed as the norm. 



> 1 Corinthians 14:16 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?


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## MarieP (Dec 7, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > so giving the preacher an amen is out?
> ...


 
amen!


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## Andres (Dec 7, 2010)

how am I supposed to clap or raise my hands when I'm holding a hymnal? (half-joking, but also half-serious here)


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 7, 2010)

Well,
I didn't say that Amen should never be said. What I said was,

1) we are present to receive and to render as ONE body, and not as a gaggle of in-duh-viduals. As a philosophical "libertarian," I have a rather robust "doctrine" of the individual (if I may be permitted to say so); but Church isn't the place for my self-centered displays, and it is the place for me to practice the self-discipline of orderliness and keeping my place in the ranks. "We hear that there are some who walk among you in a *disorderly* manner," 2Ths.3:11.

2) "Encouraging" the preacher by a noisy expostulation of affirmation strikes me as either a) an attention getter; or b) a focus on the human instrument. If the Spirit is truly speaking through the preacher, then He already knows that you know the truth, and He knows that He speaks the truth. So, who is benefiting?

Did you notice what the 1Cor.14:16 says? It incidentally acknowledges the _corporate_ affirmation, "Amen" (Truly), at the end of Prayer. In which the *uninformed* is able to participate, since he has heard intelligibly. How do we get from that, to a cacophony of cat-called "Amens"?

I understand also, there is a cultural component here, a mannerism that is part of southern-culture, and of church-life that is just "the way we do things." Nevertheless, it is a prima facie example of indiscipline. What school-lecturer (accustomed to studious attention) would appreciate random cat-calls from his audience? If the preacher is accustomed to rythmic or arrhythmic interjections... I suppose he might have no problem with it. But, what does it look and sound like to the "unbeliever" who comes in? That's Paul's point concerning order. Do these comments contribute to reverence?

Finally, does anyone think Jesus was interrupted? Seriously, if you were there on the hillside, or lakeside, or sitting next to Mary at Jesus feet, would you be jamming your word in every so often? Well, He's still speaking in the read and preached Word. I think, in general, we should wait until He's done. We should confess our Amens at the times they are fitting, and practice some individual discipline. Discipline is a MAJOR point of the letter of 1Corinthians.

You are free to disagree, of course. But I think more should be provided than an unexegeted Scripture reference, or an appeal to cultural norms.


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## sastark (Dec 7, 2010)

You've raised an excellent question, Andrew!

It seems to me that unified clapping is not out of order in our worship services (though, we may be uncomfortable with it). What I would like to see if an answer from an Exclusive Psalmist to this question, for this reason: The Psalms are filled with commands to praise God with musical instruments (Psalm 150, for just one example). Our EP brothers say those verses no longer apply to corporate worship. Without dredging up that issue, I would be interested to see if they would categorize clapping of hands (as noted in the Psalms) as a part of worship foreshadowing Christ and therefore no longer commanded of the Church? I'm not trying to lead them into a trap, but am genuinely interested to see what the EP opinion is on this.

I'm all for raising of hands, although, I wonder if only men should be doing it (1 Timothy 2:8)?


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## JBaldwin (Dec 7, 2010)

Forgive me if I sound a little agitated by this thread, but frankly, I am. Are we to stand before our God emotionless, because raising hands or the occasional clapping is "undisciplined"? When I've been in congregations where it seems clapping is "inappropriate" I still find myself tapping my foot or quietly clapping my hands when I am joyful about what I am singing. There are times when the truth is so overwhelmingly wonderful that one cannot help but raise hands in praise to God or clap. 

I see extreme expressions of emotion declared in the Psalms. In several places we are commanded to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" and "shout unto God with voice of triump". Sometimes the truth is just too wonderful to contain it by stiff bodied posture.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 7, 2010)

J, dear,
Why don't we just go dancing in the aisles? Slain in the Spirit? Holy laughter?

Just appealing to the presence of signs and sounds of praise in the Bible doesn't tell me anything about either how it was done, or how it should be done. Your own choices (that you have related above) show that you are not trying to get attention by your "participation," commendable in my view.

I think you'll tell me, at some point there's a drawing of the line for exuberance. Yes? Where and how is that? The church isn't the Army, and we aren't standing at attention. But Paul frequently uses military-style terminology to instruct us both for life and for worship.

So what does this tell me about how I need to be governing myself? Is there no expectation that I will "channel" my energies into service at the right moment? Seems to me, that is the essence of corporate participation.


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## Herald (Dec 7, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > So giving the preacher an amen is out?
> ...


 
Amen, amen, and amen!

Sent using my most excellent Android device.


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## Andres (Dec 7, 2010)

JBaldwin said:


> Forgive me if I sound a little agitated by this thread, but frankly, I am. Are we to stand before our God emotionless, because raising hands or the occasional clapping is "undisciplined"? When I've been in congregations where it seems clapping is "inappropriate" I still find myself tapping my foot or quietly clapping my hands when I am joyful about what I am singing. There are times when the truth is so overwhelmingly wonderful that one cannot help but raise hands in praise to God or clap.
> 
> I see extreme expressions of emotion declared in the Psalms. In several places we are commanded to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" and "shout unto God with voice of triump". Sometimes the truth is just too wonderful to contain it by stiff bodied posture.


 
I see your point and I think Rev Buchanan has addressed it very well. I would only add that my first experience in Christian worship was as a Pentecostal. I was Pentecostal for probably 8 years before I left and eventually became Presbyterian. Of course you can imagine those worship experiences are quite different. As a Pentecostal our service included everything you listed and also some of what Rev Buchanan listed. I can even say from experience that many times Pentecostal services are predicated on emotions rather than the gospel. Unfortunate I know, but the point is they were always looking for emotions because they seemed to be "proof" people were being ministered to or that people were "feeling" it. But now when I worship, I know that my worship is only acceptable to God because of Christ my mediator. The fact that I am in Christ is what makes my worship pleasing unto God, not that I make a bigger hoopla than my brother in the next pew. Lastly, the "proof" that people are being ministered to is that the Word is being preached and the sacraments are being administered.


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## LeeJUk (Dec 7, 2010)

Contra_Mundum said:


> J, dear,
> Why don't we just go dancing in the aisles? Slain in the Spirit? Holy laughter?
> 
> Just appealing to the presence of signs and sounds of praise in the Bible doesn't tell me anything about either how it was done, or how it should be done. Your own choices (that you have related above) show that you are not trying to get attention by your "participation," commendable in my view.
> ...


 
There is a large difference Bruce between being slain in the Spirit (which is never mentioned in the bible) and raising hands/clapping (which is endorsed by the scriptures in the context of worship in the book of Psalms and 1 Timothy 2). So please don't reduce the argument to such a low state.

Also Paul does speak of the church in military terms at times but that's not in the context of worship thats more in the context of doing ministry, personal holiness and life as individuals. 
Thats the same Paul by the way who says "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;" which if you look at the context is speaking about the corporate worship of the church. Afterward he mentions the women not coming into church in extravagant clothing. 

I agree applause to men has no place in our corporate worship, but being a non-ep'er I do believe that instruments and clapping are mentioned in the book of psalms in a corporate sense and are to be practiced today corporately in the church. Nowhere though does the text tell me everyone needs to do it at the same time and in the same way. In fact I think that would be practically problematic, unnatural and very distracting. It would turn it into a mere religious dead formality than real living and vibrant worship.


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## AThornquist (Dec 7, 2010)

Orderliness and structure are awfully subjective, so I think a standard ought to be considered by each congregation. Once you make a hard and fast rule for all Christians, you completely remove how one's culture influences the way one expresses affection, excitement, joy, etc. Theology affects our emotions, which directs what genres are fitting for the lyrics of a song, which affects our physical expression. It is very fitting then for me to recognize the glories of the Cross by lifted hands. Songs of repentance cause me to bow my head and often cry. Unlike many who are charismatic, my emotions are not the goal but rather a worshipful response to truth. In that case, how can their not be individual expressions within a congregation? 

Significantly, we are simultaneously united in what we are signing about, Who we are signing to, and why we are singing. I believe that is what Scripture calls for in corporate worship, not identical movements and expressions of how one is affected. Objections have been raised that express a fear of excess, which is a valid concern; here at Heritage Baptist Church, we would not support someone laying prostrate or dancing in the aisles, screaming random expressions of energy, and so on. There is a standard of orderliness that we feel needs to be protected, but we are open about and encouraged by worshipful lifting up of hands, though we freely state that no one is extra-spiritual because he does so; we are encouraged when brothers say "Amen!" or "Praise God!" or "Hallelujah!" during sermons if the expressions are in response to truth about our Lord. Does this distract others? Perhaps, although it may be that others are distracted because they are spiritually cold or so used to their own bubble that they are uncomfortable with whatever is different. The consensus here is that we are blessed by expressions like these. Therefore, while orderliness is vital, so is not quenching the Spirit of God. Yes, one may be very emotional without the Spirit of God, but it may be a sign that the Spirit of God is not there if one's emotions are not affected. I would rather not dictate how these emotions are expressed beyond the principles of Scripture, which I believe are not as constraining as some would seem to say.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 7, 2010)

Lee,
I'm still waiting for an actual argument that random "noisemaking" is something we ought to be doing in corporate worship. Just pointing to an action Scripture mentions has barely begun to address the how and the why. Surely, there is an "inappropriate" exercise of a gesture or word, so how are we supposed to regulate that, and keep it in bounds? Just leave it up to the individual? Sorry, that's not biblical, in my opinion.

As for reducing the argument, I note that you make no mention of my _starting point,_ which IS "mentioned" in Scripture, namely "dancing." I started there presuming that we probably all have a natural aversion to the idea of everyone, or a handful of us, getting up and dancing in the aisles. I then added a couple, even more egregious extremes. So, ignore the extremes, and deal with "dancing." Who is interested in defending that? If NOT, then we start heading backward (instead of forward) to the issue of clapping. Differentiate the criteria for disallowing dancing (I hope) and allowing clapping (?).

Paul uses the "disorderly" term in a variety of places in his letters (and other terms), and I think it's arbitrary of you to say he doesn't use it in terms of worship, without proving your point. Are we LESS orderly in worship or in our ordinary life-conduct? When, besides worship, are we MORE likely to be "drilling" with the Company?

Besides these comments, please take note of what I actually said. I have NEITHER abolished clapping NOR raising the hands, NOR Amening! What I've attempted to do is prove that this conduct is NO LESS regulated than anything else we do in worship. For instance, to say that just because singing is encouraged in worship doesn't make it OK for me to break out in song, whenever I feel the Spirit! So, who made cat-calling "Amens" an appropriate exhibition in worship?

I happen to think 1) raising hands (and other "postures") could be reasonably incorporated in worship; and 2) that the defense of such is not wisely predicated on 1Tim.2, because I judge those corporate prayers to be more akin to "prayer-meeting" than to Sabbath-worship. But a defense of the practice could still be mounted from "safer" passages, in my opinion.

As for abandoning the order of things for a free-for-all--are you sure that what you're advocating in the final para isn't actually heading in _exactly_ the direction of the "extremes" that you so blithely dismissed from my earlier comments? What *principled reason* might you employ to keep the gathered but un-marshaled individuals from making constant noise the entire time, clapping, Amening, singing, praying (not too loud, of course!), greeting with a holy kiss, _dancing_...

If you just appeal to "decently and in order" when it suits you or bothers you, what sort of principled, planned, and orchestrated worship is that? It seems to me, the onus for strong proof falls upon those who wish to allow those who are not ordained to lead, to lead with their interjections and pantomime.


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## MarieP (Dec 7, 2010)

Why is it assumed that declaring "Amen!" or "That's right!" in a sermon is cacophany or random noisemaking? There's a difference between saying "AMEN" after the pastor says, "Josephus wrote about this in his works" and "And we know God works all things together for the good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose"


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 7, 2010)

Not to stir up the host, but dancing can be lightly moving the body or parts of the body rhythmically during musical worship (swaying a bit, tapping the toe, nodding the head) - I think we may be packing the idea of "dance" with some presuppositions that may be driven by bias. As long as it is done decently and in order...


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## LeeJUk (Dec 7, 2010)

Well I never meant to give the impression that I believed in the chaos your describing. I do think there should be some order but I don't believe that order must mean total restriction or rejection of everything individualistic. It seems that you don't hold that everything should be restricted to that extent and I think upon reflection our views are pretty similar.

Some examples of regulation in my mind (I'm sure someone will find holes in them and are by no means fail safe but a general guide) would be...

It is appropriate for individuals to raise their hands or clap during the hymns/psalms should they feel like doing so in worship to God as long as care is taken to not distract or invade the personal space of those around you.

It is appropriate for individuals during times where there are times of instrumental worship (singing ends...guitar melodies continue is the usual way this happens) to pray out loud or shout praise to God as long as its only 1 person praying or speaking at a time. This should happen as long as the minister would like it to and he would have the responsibility of moving it on to the next part of the service when he sees fit.

I know the second example some people would have problems with as its usually done in Charismatic circles but I think if done in a proper and orderly way described in brief above it could really lead to some great times of worship to the Lord.

It seems Bruce you and I don't really have the amount of difference I initially thought and I took things from your statements that were not intended. God bless you brother and I've enjoyed our conversation.


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## Grimmson (Dec 7, 2010)

The question of raising hands and clapping during worship is an extremely important question and one in which we as Christians are not always consistent with in regards to our justification or denial of such practices within our churches. No one here is denying the need for orderly worship, the issue is on how should that look like in relation to scripture and our tradition that should be based on scripture. We live in an age where emotion drives the practices that we do on what hand and on the other expressively deny the use of emotional expression in our worship. I would say either extreme is wrong and sinful. Worship is not defined by the local church or the individual, but by God in his holy Word; which is a fact that we would all hold to if we subscribe to the regulative principle of worship. 

Before I go on to talk about the raising of hands and clapping, I want to address the attitude of the lack of emotion. Should we as a church be emotionless in our worship? If we love our Lord and Savior, because he has changed our hearts and made us new creatures saved by grace, then the real question should be how can we not be emotional? There is a real danger in our churches of becoming like the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2, where we have lost our first love despite the works that we have done and the defense of orthodox doctrine in the name of Christ. Now that not to say the issue of the church of Ephesus was per say dealing with the issue of lack of emotion. The issue being addressed however is how love is naturally expressed in emotion, such as with a husband and a wife. John 4:24 makes it clear that we are to worship God “in spirit and in truth.” An element of that truth would be the natural affection in our nature towards God as we express the truth of what Christ has done on the cross. The same truth which is a fruit of the Spirit, see Ephesians 5:9, also brings the emotion of joy, see Galatians 5:22. We are commanded to sing with joy as Isaiah 65:14 makes clear, if we are servants of the living God. Zephaniah 3:14 also makes the case that we should sing for joy or gladness in our hearts. James 5:13 says, “Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.” This is not to mean that the old Dutchman who shows no emotion in the URC service is not joyful when he singing to our God. It is just not in his character to show it most likely. However the attitude of non-emotion in worship is wrong and an issue that must be addressed in our churches, for if it is not then true pastoral care is not being given to the sheep, for there is an essential element of joy in our worship in our worship of Christ. The chosen should not by character of the saving power of the Spirit inwardly be frozen.

Now regarding raising of hands and clapping. The raising of hands is acceptable to prayer; see 1 Timothy 2:8. Psalm 28:2 I think uses the raising of hands in this context. Psalm 63:4 is individualistic in nature and uses the raising of hands in conjunction to praising God in the Psalm with King David’s lips. In considering the close relationship, which Calvin even recognizes in his Institutes, between prayers and sing of the psalms the organic carry over in the New Testament age would make sense; since a case can be made that singing praises to God is a type of prayer within this present age. There is no clear dismal of the raising of hands nor a mention in scripture of it being a distraction in public worship. Instead what we see is it use in the Psalter and as an acceptable practice in prayer in the New Testament. Clapping however is a different matter. I personally would not condemn the practice as long as it was done in a structured manner, because even I tap my foot while I sing. Also I think the elements and circumstances should be considered, where as clapping is seen as a circumstance of worship. In certain contexts I could easily see it as not being a distraction in worship, while in others it can be. It has never been a distraction for me, but if you are not use to seeing it I could see how one could be distracted. Dancing is a different story and can possibly be related to clapping. In Psalm 150:4 we see “Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!” Also consider Psalm 149: 3. Dancing is not condemned as a form of worshipping God, but it would be interesting to point out that in most of these cases it is women who are doing the dancing. Dancing is directly related to joy, even after the crossing of the Red Sea, see Exodus 15:20. The problem with dancing is the unorganized manner in which it is done in within the context of modern corporate worship. It should by no means restrict the motion of the body to standing completely still, but neither to run up and down the aisles of the church. There must be structure in place so that the congregation can express their passion for Christ, and clapping can be done orderly. The moving of the foot can be done orderly, along with the hand clapping the leg while one sings a joyful noise. This should not be seen as Pentecostal due to localized restrictions put in place towards worship. By such restrictions you are binding the consciences of those present in your churches, but such binding should not be implanted to strict the natural joy they have in Christ. Also outside of corporate worship if some members want to dance to the Lord as a group then I don’t see a reason not to allow them based on the Psalms.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 8, 2010)

Contra_Mundum said:


> J, dear,
> Why don't we just go dancing in the aisles? Slain in the Spirit? Holy laughter?
> 
> Just appealing to the presence of signs and sounds of praise in the Bible doesn't tell me anything about either how it was done, or how it should be done. Your own choices (that you have related above) show that you are not trying to get attention by your "participation," commendable in my view.
> ...



Bruce, what are you afraid of? I do not advocate disorder, Scripture is quite plain about that. It does seem to me that there is a question as to what decently and in order means. It has been my experience over the years that individuals who are extroverts tend to congregate in churches which put up with more of a show of exuberance, and people who are a little more introverted and quiet tend to congregate in churches which put up with very little show of emotion. It's our nature to want to be with people who express things the way we do. 

What we often forget is that the church is made up of all sorts of people, extroverts, introverts and combinations of the two. If we trust the Spirit of God in our brothers and sisters, we will not need to worry about the occasional raising of the hands, clapping while they are singing or speaking an Amen when it just pops out, because they will have the sense enough to be decent and in order about it. We all know when someone is putting on a show, and we can usually tell when the expression is genuine. 

The Bible says no where that we are to refrain from clapping, raising our hands, saying Amen or even dancing in worship. It does say that we are to let all things be done decently and in order. I leave it at that.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 9, 2010)

J,
My interests here don't spring from fear.
I pray your worship next Lord's Day is Spirit-filled, gloriously exuberant, and orderly.
Grace, mercy, and peace be unto you.
Yours,


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## BlackCalvinist (Dec 9, 2010)

A small, but important observation in this thread:

Even in most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, even with most people off in their own little world, there is still order.

Our definitions of 'order' and 'decency' are going to be partially informed by culture. Bruce noted this earlier:



> If you think accompaniment on instruments is OK, then you should probably admit "clapping" as instrumental. Or vice versa. But I would tend to view this a cultural component, which It seems to me, I've seen in places like Africa. It's a circumstance that keeps the congregation together, acting as one.



If some of you were to step into a traditional black baptist church, based on *your* definition of order, you may find some of the congregational clapping, shouts of amen, hallelujah and other joyous expressions (including a 'handclap for The LORD') to be out of order and 'disorganized' and 'not decent' based on your _preconceived_ cultural definitions of what 'order' and 'decency' are, despite the fact that the majority of the congregation engages in these things _together_ as *one voice*. The people in that church, however, despite not even knowing what an RPW is, would be fulfilling the very conditions for 'order' and 'decency' that 1 Cor. 14 command.

At this point, if you felt uncomfortable with it, you would be left with two options: {1} claim that those things spoken of in the Psalms (clapping, dancing) and 1 Cor. 14 (Amen-ing) were not meant to be a regular part of worship....and then go through a million exegetical backflips to prove why one can sing a Psalm that says praise God with instruments, but you can't actually praise God with instruments.... 
{2} come to grips with the fact that your real objection is _personal preference_, which would then put you in the same category as those whom you may criticize for 'will worship' and fashioning worship to be about the comfort of men rather than the legitimate praise of God. 

I've seen most people opt for choice #1. 

Don't be afraid of other people's joy.

A bit of reading related to this thread:

Calvinist Confessions, 2 – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile

Calvinist Confessions, 3 – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile


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## jwithnell (Dec 9, 2010)

Glad this question has come up because it has been in my thoughts lately. In my private worship in the last year or so I've been raising my hands, initially as a totally spontaneous movement and since then with the consciousness of the scripture that speak to the motion. It is part of what I am saying with my words in my worship and adoration of God. In church, I have been reluctant to do so, primarily because I do not want to call attention to myself or distract others from worshipping. My hands are turned upward and perhaps raised a few inches above my lap. I have come to a strong conviction in the last few years that public worship is an outgrowth of our private and family worship.

While I appreciate Pastor Buchanan's observations and generally would not disagree with him, I do not believe (when using Biblically- recognized forms) that we are to be in 100 percent lockstep in worship. We sing in parts, we choose different text upon which to contemplate as we prepare for worship, we participate in ways appropriate for our roles (preaching, serving, and so forth) so I believe there is room for diversity within the unity of the congregation. Once again, only as a far as the Bible gives us, which would not include "being slain in the spirit" etc.

"Amen" is a different matter. Having lived most of my life in the south, it has sounded rather natural to me. However, it occurred to me recently that (during preaching) a person is either commenting on what the scriptures say (and they say what they say whether or not we affirm them) or we are commenting upon the words given by the man that God has ordained to preach those words to us. Neither seems appropriate. An Amen after a solo or something draws attention to the person singing, much like applause.


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## Peairtach (Dec 10, 2010)

If you support musical instruments in the public or formal worship of God on the basis of the Psalms that mention them, you can't object to clapping, dancing and shouting in the public or formal worship of God, as these are mentioned in the Psalms.

These things aren't mentioned as part of the more spiritual and simpler worship of the New Testament church. In contrast we have the more physical and complex childhood OT worship.

Raising of hands is mentioned in the OT and NT as being done by men at prayer, not by all and sundry while singing choruses, and this should be allowed.

By means of the creativity that is allowed for by dancing, shouting, clapping, applauding, along with the large and uneven body of post-canonical hymns and the great variety of instruments and music styles, worship as entertainment, carnival or jamboree is smuggled in.

I believe the simplicity, minimalism, Word-centredness, spirituality and even Scripturalness of worship is marred by these developments in evangelicalism which can be traced to Pentecostalism and the Jesus People ( converted Hippies).

*Quote from Kevin*


> If clapping is sinful during worship then my one year old will have to undergo church discipline.



Some things may not be sinful but mistaken or less than ideal. Anyway children are a different to adults and should be treated with more understanding and given a degree of leeway. This childish expression of worship shouldn't be heavy handedly and harshly suppressed.

Something like this shouldn't be heavy-handedly dealt with by sessions and sanctions, but patiently explained by pastor and elders from the Scriptures.

We have to be particularly gentle and patient with our brothers and sisters on issues that may be important but aren't as weighty as others, and we have to remember that brothers and sisters come from evangelical church traditions that don't understand that there is any issue here at all.

Yet this type of worship has "come in" to many evangelical and Reformed churches in only the last four decades.

*Austin*


> It would first need to be shown that the context of those references was corporate synagogue worship. Otherwise all one can conclude is that one may clap to the Lord out in the field.



The distinction between formal/informal and public/private worship is sometimes seen as specious. But it is real enough though sometimes hard to define and if it is broken down then allsorts of innovations are allowed.

E.g. In I Corinthians, our Apostle places a distinction between the formal worship of the Lord's Supper and the informal worship of the agape feast. At our midweek prayer meeting we have a sermon and/or bible study with prayer. 

Occasionally there may be a missionary who will show a slideshow. This is a type of informal worship, on the understanding that sermons are not to be regularly and formally replaced as an element of worship by slideshows.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 11, 2010)

BlackCalvinist said:


> A small, but important observation in this thread:
> 
> Even in most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, even with most people off in their own little world, there is still order.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for posting this, and I agree with you.

---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------




> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > We have to be particularly gentle and patient with our brothers and sisters on issues that may be important but aren't as weighty as others, and we have to remember that brothers and sisters come from evangelical church traditions that don't understand that there is any issue here at all.
> ...


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