# Is This A Reformed view of the Gospel?



## moral necessity (Mar 27, 2009)

I could use some help here. How far from a reformed gospel is this?

A friend of mine had me listen to this, and asked what I thought, mainly about the part from minute 43.38 through around minute 50.00. 

He starts by saying, "How can we be saved by grace through faith, and not by works, and yet face final judgment that is according to works or deeds alone, with no favoritism to people that say they loved the gospel?" He goes on to say that, basically, we will be justified according to our deeds on judgment day. He says that the Gospel makes a way for us to be justified by truly providing us the power by which we can measure up to the Law, and that we will all be measured according to it's standard on that day. Imputation is not mentioned as our righteousness before God in that judgment. Is this really a reformed teaching, or is it Rome simply repackaged? Do you know of any reformers who wrote on this subject, or had to deal with this teaching?


It starts on page 9 here, in the 3rd paragraph, if you prefer to read it instead of listen to it.

http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/22209154767.pdf


It's the 5th sermon on the list here, the one from Romans 2:1-16, and is called, "The Power of the Gospel on our Deeds", from 2/22/09, if you prefer to hear it.

SermonAudio.com - Ferndale Church


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## toddpedlar (Mar 27, 2009)

I haven't the time to listen to the sermon tonight, but if you have related it faithfully - that the pastor said that we are to be judged by the law, and will have some power in order to actually measure up to it, then, NO, NO, NO, this is NOT reformed teaching, but abominable error. If imputation of Christ's righteousness is not the means by which we satisfy God's demands, then we are lost. This man is teaching error - again, judging by what you have relayed, and assuming you have relayed his teaching accurately.


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## MW (Mar 27, 2009)

In reformed theology, there is a "judgment according to works," but the works are fruits and evidences of saving faith in the elect and the signs of sin and death in the reprobate. It sounds like the preacher is trying to say something like this, but stumbling a little over his terminology, and unhappily presenting the neonomian view.


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## toddpedlar (Mar 27, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> In reformed theology, there is a "judgment according to works," but the works are fruits and evidences of saving faith in the elect and the signs of sin and death in the reprobate. It sounds like the preacher is trying to say something like this, but stumbling a little over his terminology, and unhappily presenting the neonomian view.



I certainly hope you're correct, Rev. Winzer. I've not been able to listen to the statements in the audio form, but it could very well be that this (rather than my negative spin) is the case.


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## moral necessity (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't wish to misrepresent the case, so please correct me if I am doing so. I'm hoping to share some thoughts regarding this to my friend.......he's very distressed over some of these messages he's been listenting to. Can you explain the neonomian view, Rev. Winzer? I assume it basically has to do with "new law".


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## Marrow Man (Mar 27, 2009)

Don't some in the NPP camp (and possibly FV camp) make similar statements to this?


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## MW (Mar 27, 2009)

moral necessity said:


> I don't wish to misrepresent the case, so please correct me if I am doing so. I'm hoping to share some thoughts regarding this to my friend.......he's very distressed over some of these messages he's been listenting to. Can you explain the neonomian view, Rev. Winzer? I assume it basically has to do with "new law".



Neonomianism turns the gospel into a new law, and makes its reqirements of faith and repentance with accompanying obedience and perseverance to be the "conditions" by which this new law is fulfilled for righteousness. It usually starts with making faith more than a simple means of appropriating Christ and His righteousness, and generally leads to the position that personal righteousness, by the help of grace, is a sure basis on which the believer can be confident in the day of judgment.


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## CharlieJ (Mar 27, 2009)

Indeed, this is an N.T. Wright teaching. Don't have the reference on me, though.


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## Scott1 (Mar 28, 2009)

It's hard to know if this person has been influenced by "federal vision" or "new perspectives" serious error or if he is being confused by them, or if he is confused in the way he is explaining this.

I have heard Dr Sproul say, that in the final analysis, we are saved by works, with an important caveat. It is the perfect works of Christ. That is, Christ's perfect obedience, sinless life is what alone can meet God's perfect standard of holiness. Faith in that (Christ's righteousness alone) is what saves us.


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## asc (Mar 28, 2009)

"So don’t make a mystery where there isn’t one. How does judgment square with
salvation by grace through faith? Because those who are saved by such a powerful gospel, as God has provided, are well equipped to meet God’s requirements. They do so with grave respect but also with privileged joy, trusting in Christ that in Him they can do all things because He strengthens them for it. In other words, you are living and walking in the supernatural, you are enjoying the miracle power of the gospel, not as a boon to flesh but as the development of the Spirit with an eye on judgment. But this is all because, as we said to start with, in the gospel, God is providing what he requires. What is that? It’s righteousness."

I didn't read it all carefully, but this sounds like Rome to me. There's no mention of imputation of Christ's righteousness-- God judging me righteous based on Chris's finished work, but instead he sounds like he's saying you can become righteous in this life by God's grace and walking in the Spirit.


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## Knoxienne (Mar 28, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> It's hard to know if this person has been influenced by "federal vision" or "new perspectives" serious error or if he is being confused by them, or if he is confused in the way he is explaining this.
> 
> I have heard Dr Sproul say, that in the final analysis, we are saved by works, with an important caveat. It is the perfect works of Christ. That is, Christ's perfect obedience, sinless life is what alone can meet God's perfect standard of holiness. Faith in that (Christ's righteousness alone) is what saves us.


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## Phillip (Jun 1, 2009)

Neonomianism

Another synonym for "Works."

"Smells like smoke and........


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