# Urim and Thummim



## Scott (Dec 15, 2004)

Any views on what these were?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 15, 2004)

Special rocks, like dice of sorts.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 16, 2004)

Here's a little more info from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary: 

Thummim - perfection (LXX., "truth;" Vulg., "veritas"), Ex. 28:30; Deut. 33:8; Judg. 1:1; 20:18; 1 Sam. 14:3,18; 23:9; 2 Sam. 21:1. What the "Urim and Thummim" were cannot be determined with any certainty. All we certainly know is that they were a certain divinely-given means by which God imparted, through the high priest, direction and counsel to Israel when these were needed. The method by which this was done can be only a matter of mere conjecture. They were apparently material objects, quite distinct from the breastplate, but something added to it after all the stones had been set in it, something in addition to the breastplate and its jewels. They may have been, as some suppose, two small images, like the teraphim (comp. Judg. 17:5; 18:14, 17, 20; Hos. 3:4), which were kept in the bag of the breastplate, by which, in some unknown way, the high priest could give forth his divinely imparted decision when consulted. They were probably lost at the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar. They were never seen after the return from captivity. 

http://www.ccel.org/pager.cgi?file=...0.html&from=T0003648&up=e/easton/ebd/ebd.html


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 16, 2004)

I'd like to think they glowed, or something. But like the article said - it definitely is all conjecture. We know the high priests sometimes consulted them, and they were given to them as a tool by God. 

I am glad we have the Word of God so we don't have to guess.


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## JohnV (Dec 16, 2004)

I pictured them as some six-sided stones, like dice, but with definite markings on them that stood for something. In this way when they were "cast" they would give a definite answer in relation to the parts of the question asked. So there would be twelve distinct and separate markings, only two of which would come up. When we look at the times that we do know what the answers were, do we find two parts to these answers, and do they relate to the questions in order? Or do we find that the answers are just "yes" or "no"? So these markings would have a general meaning that could be applied to the question asked, and would not just be a "yes" or "no", but could include "I will give success" or "You will not succeed." So the question asked would be what gave each distinct marking its possible meaning. So it wasn't just a set of dice; it involved a good application of logic, soundness, and direction with each time it was used. In this way it was never an issue of chance, being always administered by someone ordained to use it, and having the training to apply it properly. 

That's the best that I can make of it. All we have to work on to figure it out, if it can be figured out, is what we have in Scripture. But even if we had these articles themselves, the art to use them is still lost. As you can see, my reasoning depends on them being like dice; if they were more like some other object, which I cannot imagine as yet, then the whole thing would have to be re-figured. 

Like Matt says, we have the Bible, and that's a whole lot better. It is spelled out for us, and is sufficient for all of life. In the days of Urim and Thummim revelation was not nearly complete; God was still revealing His plan of salvation, things into which those who had Urim and Thummim longed to look.

[Edited on 16-12-2004 by JohnV]


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> I'd like to think they glowed, or something. But like the article said - it definitely is all conjecture. We know the high priests sometimes consulted them, and they were given to them as a tool by God.
> 
> I am glad we have the Word of God so we don't have to guess.



I'm glad we don't have more details otherwise folks would be running around trying to create their own.


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## crhoades (Dec 16, 2004)

They already have! It's called a magic 8-ball.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 16, 2004)

And you roll it on a weejee board!


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## BobVigneault (Dec 16, 2004)

I'm dumb, I thought Urim and Thummim were a Russian pop duo!


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