# Want to have a big family? Move north!



## Kevin

I'm not kidding.

Canadian culture is very similar to the US so the shock would not be to great. US credentials & certifications (in most cases) are instantly accepted. Pay rates here are a bit higher. People get longer vacations.

Tax rate is a bit higher, but not likely for much longer. But consider the plus side.

1) family tax credit. A large family with a modest income (10 kids 40k per year) would recieve aprox 40k per year tax free. To have the same spending power in the US would require more than $100,000 per year. (calculate your amount here Child and Family Benefits Online Calculator 

2) No medical cost out of pocket, except for drugs.

3) we need people. 

4) Curling! CURLING

5) move to NB & be part of an exciting church plant


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## Nate

I was going to after global warming made Canada more user friendly, but now it appears that global warming is not all it's cracked up to be! Very disappointing.


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## baron

To late for a large family for me but I do like to watch Curling when it's on TV.
Don't understand it but I enjoy watching it.


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## a mere housewife

Canadians are so suspicious-looking, though.

Suspicious Fail FAIL Blog: Epic Fail Pictures and Videos of Owned, Pwnd and Fail Moments


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## Osage Bluestem

Canada sounds nice because of the people and the beautiful land, but what about the socialism and the lack of freedom of speech? Isn't Canada a very left wing country that has the potential of convictiong people that say homosexuality is a sin of hate crimes? Do you think that one day they will censor the bible in Canada or at least require disclaimers on it before sale?

I think of Canada like I think of the so called "progressive" european countries like Sweeden and such.

No offense, that is just the impression of Canada that I've gotten.


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## kvanlaan

Sent you a PM on that calculation - I wish it was so! $40K a year tax free would be a blessing indeed. But it is just not that rosy...

But the rest is true (not sure about the curling...) Problem is, a lot of new immigrants come _for_ the programs and it's overloading the system. We've seen, in getting registered for shots, etc. that there are programs for EVERYTHING! We were told by some that we could have government-paid caretakers in our home for FREE (no thanks). If you want to live off the system, it is an easy ride indeed.


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## Kevin

DD2009 said:


> Canada sounds nice because of the people and the beautiful land, but what about the socialism and the lack of freedom of speech? Isn't Canada a very left wing country that has the potential of convictiong people that say homosexuality is a sin of hate crimes? Do you think that one day they will censor the bible in Canada or at least require disclaimers on it before sale?
> 
> I think of Canada like I think of the so called "progressive" european countries like Sweeden and such.
> 
> No offense, that is just the impression of Canada that I've gotten.



None taken.

The main difference is that we do not have troops in 177 countries. (only a half dozen or so)

BTW you would be shocked at the impression most people here have of the USA. And Texas even more so, (GWB, etc.)


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## a mere housewife

(Just to clarify that I don't mean any offense either; I just think you all look like you're engaged in criminal activity.)


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## Osage Bluestem

Kevin said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canada sounds nice because of the people and the beautiful land, but what about the socialism and the lack of freedom of speech? Isn't Canada a very left wing country that has the potential of convictiong people that say homosexuality is a sin of hate crimes? Do you think that one day they will censor the bible in Canada or at least require disclaimers on it before sale?
> 
> I think of Canada like I think of the so called "progressive" european countries like Sweeden and such.
> 
> No offense, that is just the impression of Canada that I've gotten.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None taken.
> 
> The main difference is that we do not have troops in 177 countries. (only a half dozen or so)
> 
> BTW you would be shocked at the impression most people here have of the USA. And Texas even more so, (GWB, etc.)
Click to expand...


Well, George did clean up a bit for TV but other than that it's all true! 

I wish we could have him back for a third term.


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## MLCOPE2

a mere housewife said:


> Canadians are so suspicious-looking, though.
> 
> Suspicious Fail FAIL Blog: Epic Fail Pictures and Videos of Owned, Pwnd and Fail Moments


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## AThornquist

Are there any parts of Canada that aren't cold? I hate when it gets below 50 degrees.  Besides that, Canada sounds very appealing. I really desire to be in ministry and have a large family. I didn't see the question answered yet--what about homosexuality? Can it safely be preached against?

My main reason to not like Canada is that I would like to do a lot in the US. Any insight on the difficultly/cost of traveling back and forth, both airliner and in automobile?


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## C. M. Sheffield

Kevin said:


> 4) Curling! CURLING



Curling? 

This is one I've just never understood. What a odd sport!


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## kvanlaan

> Canada sounds nice because of the people and the beautiful land, but what about the socialism and the lack of freedom of speech? Isn't Canada a very left wing country that has the potential of convictiong people that say homosexuality is a sin of hate crimes? Do you think that one day they will censor the bible in Canada or at least require disclaimers on it before sale?
> 
> I think of Canada like I think of the so called "progressive" european countries like Sweeden and such.
> 
> No offense, that is just the impression of Canada that I've gotten.



The lack of free speech is much more advanced than in the US. We do not have the freedom of speech that the Americans have, and we've got Human Rights Commissions that are legal atrocities. Some issues in the last decade or so:



> In 1997 the Ontario Human Rights Commission fined the City of London and its mayor, DIANE HASKETT, $10,000 for refusing to proclaim Gay Pride Day. It also ordered Haskett to make a public statement praising the “valuable contributions of gays and lesbians to her community,” which she refused to do. She said, “I will not bow down to the ruling of the human rights commission and I am willing to bear any consequences of that. If this ruling is left unchallenged, any Canadian can be forced to say what they don’t believe ... The implications are so staggering it should be a matter for legal review” (“Gay Pride Fallout,” The Interim, February 1998).
> 
> In 2001 in Toronto, Ontario, printer SCOTT BROCKIE was fined $5,000 for refusing to print homosexual-themed stationery for the Canadian Gay and Lesbian Archives. The human rights commissioner in this case was Heather MacNaughton.
> 
> In 2002 in Saskatchewan the StarPhoenix newspaper of Saskatoon and HUGH OWENS were ordered to pay $1,500 to three homosexual activists for publishing an ad in the newspaper in 1997 quoting Bible verses regarding homosexuality. The advertisement displayed references to four Bible passages (Romans 1, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) on the left side. An equal sign (=) was situated in the middle, with a symbol on the right side comprised of two males holding hands with the universal sign of a red circle with a diagonal bar superimposed over the top. Owens bought the ad and the StarPhoenix merely printed it. The Human Rights Commission’s ruling was appealed to the courts. In February 2003 the Court of Queen’s Bench in Saskatchewan refused to overturn it, with Justice J. Barclay saying the advertisement was an incitement to hatred. But in April 2006 the ruling was overturned by the Saskatchewan Court of Appeals (“Court Reverses Ruling,” WorldNetDaily, April 14, 2006).
> 
> In 2005 a British Columbia KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS council was ordered to pay $2,000 to two lesbians, plus their legal costs, for refusing to allow its facility to be used for their “wedding.” The human rights commissioner in this case was Heather MacNaughton.
> 
> In January 2006, Catholic city councilman JOHN DECICCO of Kamloops, British Columbia, was fined $1,000 and required to apologize for saying that homosexuality is “not normal or natural” (LifeSiteNews, Jan. 19, 2007). In his remarks, which were made in a city council meeting, DeCicco was expressing the official doctrine of his church. The fine goes to two homosexual activists who brought the complaint. DeCicco was also forced to issue a public statement that his comments were “inappropriate and hurtful to some.” DeCiccco told LifeSiteNews, “I’m not against lesbian and gay people, but I don’t agree that I should have to endorse it.”
> 
> In January 2002 the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal levied a fine of $7500 against the VANCOUVER RAPE RELIEF SOCIETY for its refusal to allow a male-to-female “transsexual” named Kimberly Dawn to train as a rape and abuse hotline counsellor. In an article at its web site dated April 16, 2000, the society argued that it operates as a women-only society and that it is not wrong to exclude an individual who has grown up as a man and who its clients might not accept as a woman. The original complaint was brought in 1995. The tribunal commissioner who imposed the heavy-fisted sentence was Heather MacNaughton.
> 
> In 2005 in Alberta FRED HENRY, Roman Catholic bishop of Calgary, was subject to two complaints before the Alberta Human Rights Commission after publishing a pastoral letter defending the traditional definition of marriage earlier that same year. (“Canada’s Human Rights Beef with Catholics,” Zenit, Feb. 5, 2008). Bishop Henry told Zenit: “The social climate right now is that we’re into a new form of censorship and thought control, and the commissions are being used as thought police.”
> 
> In February 2007 complaints were brought before the Human Rights Commission targeting CATHOLIC INSIGHT magazine and priest ALPHONSE DE VALK, a well-known pro-life activist, for quoting from the Bible and church documents to refute “same-sex marriage.” The complaint was brought by homosexual activist Rob Wells, a member of the Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered Pride Center of Edmonton. He accuses the magazine of promoting “extreme hatred and contempt” against homosexuals. de Valk says, “The basic view of the Church is that homosexual acts are a sin, but we love the sinner,” adding that opposing same-sex marriage is not the same as rejecting homosexuals as persons (“Canada’s Human Rights Beef with Catholics,” Zenit, Feb. 5, 2008).
> 
> In 2007 the CHRISTIAN HERITAGE PARTY OF CANADA and its leader RON GRAY were investigated by the Canadian Human Rights Commission (CHRC) after a homosexual activist complained that he was offended by material on the party’s web site. The activist, Rob Wells, has also launched complaints against Craig Chandler in Alberta and Alphonse de Valk and Catholic Insight magazine. One of the articles that Wells complained about was an April 29, 2002, report published by WorldNetDaily in America citing a study that found that pedophilia is more common among homosexuals (Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays'). Another article, written by Ron Gray, protested Canada’s bill to legalize same-sex marriage. Gray told LifeSiteNews: “Christians are probably the best friends homosexuals have in the world because we want to see them delivered from an addiction that will shorten their lives in this world and condemn them in the next. I’m not motivated by hate at all. I would guess that very few if any real Christians are motivated by hate in their response to these issues. It’s a question of compassion. Who truly loves you, someone who tells you the truth even when it hurts, or someone who will tell you you’re okay even when you’re headed down the wrong road. The Scripture says, ‘Faithful are the wounds of a friend, and deceitful are the kisses of an enemy’” (“Christian Political Party before Human Rights Commission,” LifeSiteNews, Nov. 27, 2007). He added: “I really think this is a crucial case because if an agency of the government, which the CHRC is, can tell a political party what it may and may not include in its political statements we have gone way down the road to totalitarianism.”
> 
> In 2007, in British Columbia, a complaint was made against MACLEAN’S MAGAZINE (Canada’s leading newsweekly) for publishing an excerpt from MARK STEYN’S book America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It. The article, published in October 2006, was entitled “The Future Belongs of Islam.” The complaint was brought by Naiyer Habib and Mohamed Elmasry, an imam and president of the Canadian Islamic Congress. Elmasry appeared on the Michael Coren Show in Toronto in 2004 and said that anyone in Israel over the age of 18 was a justifiable target of Palestinian attacks (“Mark Steyn Human Rights Tribunal,” LifeSiteNews, June 3, 2008). He later apologized, but his basic outlook is obvious. Yet he had the audacity to complain to the Canadian Human Rights Commission that the MacLean’s article portrayed Muslims as “inhuman” and “violent.” The case was referred to the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which opened its proceedings against Steyn and the magazine in June 2008.
> 
> In January 2008 the Alberta Human Rights Tribunal began its proceedings against EZRA LEVANT. He is defending himself against complaints by Islamic activists who have protested the publication of Danish cartoons of Mohammed for news purposes in the Western Standard magazine in 2006. In his opening remarks to the tribunal on January 11, 2008, Levant made the following powerful and eloquent statement:
> 
> “When the Western Standard magazine printed the Danish cartoons of Mohammed two years ago, I was the publisher. It was the proudest moment of my public life. I would do it again today. In fact, I did do it again today. Though the Western Standard, sadly, no longer publishes a print edition, I posted the cartoons this morning on my website, ezralevant.com.
> 
> “I am here at this government interrogation under protest. It is my position that the government has no legal or moral authority to interrogate me or anyone else for publishing these words and pictures. That is a violation of my ancient and inalienable freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and in this case, religious freedom and the separation of mosque and state. It is especially perverted that a bureaucracy calling itself the Alberta human rights commission would be the government agency violating my human rights. So I will now call those bureaucrats ‘the commission’ or ‘the hrc’, since to call the commission a ‘human rights commission’ is to destroy the meaning of those words. I believe that this commission has no proper authority over me. The commission was meant as a low-level, quasi-judicial body to arbitrate squabbles about housing, employment and other matters, where a complainant felt that their race or sex was the reason they were discriminated against. The commission was meant to deal with deeds, not words or ideas. Now the commission, which is funded by a secular government, from the pockets of taxpayers of all backgrounds, is taking it upon itself to be an enforcer of the views of radical Islam. So much for the separation of mosque and state.
> 
> “I have read the past few years’ worth of decisions from this commission, and it is clear that it has become a dump for the junk that gets rejected from the real legal system. I read one case where a male hair salon student complained that he was called a ‘loser’ by the girls in the class. The commission actually had a hearing about this. Another case was a kitchen manager with Hepatitis-C, who complained that it was against her rights to be fired. The commission actually agreed with her, and forced the restaurant to pay her $4,900. In other words, the commission is a joke--it’s the Alberta equivalent of a U.S. television pseudo-court like Judge Judy--except that Judge Judy actually was a judge, whereas none of the commission’s panellists are judges, and some aren’t even lawyers. And, unlike the commission, Judge Judy believes in freedom of speech. It’s bad enough that this sick joke is being wreaked on hair salons and restaurants. But it’s even worse now that the commissions are attacking free speech.
> 
> “That’s my first point: the commissions have leapt out of the small cage they were confined to, and are now attacking our fundamental freedoms. We have a heritage of free speech that we inherited from Great Britain that goes back to the year 1215 and the Magna Carta. We have a heritage of eight hundred years of British common law protection for speech, augmented by 250 years of common law in Canada. That common law has been restated in various fundamental documents, especially since the Second World War.
> 
> “In 1948, the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Canada is a party, declared that, quote: ‘Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.’
> 
> “The 1960 Canadian Bill of Rights guaranteed, quote, 1. ‘human rights and fundamental freedoms, namely, (c) freedom of religion; (d) freedom of speech; (e) freedom of assembly and association; and (f) freedom of the press.’
> 
> “In 1982, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guaranteed, quote: ‘2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: a) freedom of conscience and religion; b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication.’
> 
> “Those were even called ‘fundamental freedoms’--to give them extra importance. For a government bureaucrat to call any publisher or anyone else to an interrogation to be quizzed about his political or religious expression is a violation of 800 years of common law, a Universal Declaration of Rights, a Bill of Rights and a Charter of Rights. This commission is applying Saudi values, not Canadian values” (Kangaroo court - Ezra Levant).
> In March 2008 the Canadian government ordered MACGREGOR MINISTRIES, an apologetics ministry, shut down because its reference materials were ‘critical’ of the beliefs of those who are not Christian (WorldNetDaily, March 21, 2008). Lorri MacGregor told WND that Canada’s version of a ‘hate crimes’ law prevented their work from continuing as it had for nearly 30 years. The ministry was ordered to either make wholesale changes in its presentations, or shut down. They were required to say that all religions are equal, stop publishing their magazine on cults, remove all offending material from their website, and stop selling any products teaching about cults. Refusing to operate under those conditions, they moved the ministry to America.
> 
> In June 2008 STEPHEN BOISSON, an evangelical youth pastor, was banned from expressing opposition to homosexuality in any public forum and ordered to pay $7,000 “damages for pain and suffering” to the homosexual activist who complained against him. The trouble began in 2002 when Boisson wrote a letter to the editor of the Red Deer Advocate newspaper in Alberta and denounced the advance of homosexual activism in the schools. Printed under the heading “Homosexual Agenda Wicked,” the letter said: “Children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature and guidance in the public school system; all under the fraudulent guise of equal rights.” This offended a homosexual teacher named Darren Lund who complained to the Alberta Human Rights Tribunal.



Sorry, had to include the Ezra Levant quote. I followed his case at the time, watching the videotaped records too. Scary stuff. Some of these people were bone-headed in what they did, but it is still no cause to be hauled off to 'court'.

Add to this $4.00/gallon gas as a regular thing, a new 13% "harmonized" tax on almost everything you buy, and it is not quite as happy and fluffy as it looks at first glance.


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## AThornquist

Whatchoo think about my questions, Kevin(s)?


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## kvanlaan

> Are there any parts of Canada that aren't cold? I hate when it gets below 50 degrees. Besides that, Canada sounds very appealing. I really desire to be in ministry and have a large family. I didn't see the question answered yet--what about homosexuality? Can it safely be preached against?
> 
> My main reason to not like Canada is that I would like to do a lot in the US. Any insight on the difficultly/cost of traveling back and forth, both airliner and in automobile?



Uh, let me take a shot at it. Can you preach against homosexuality? In some places now, yes. In some places now, no. In the future? Who knows? British Columbia is warmer than just about anywhere else, but it's a whole 'nother planet out there.

I live one hour from the US border. There's no problem in going back and forth.


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## matt01

> Any insight on the difficultly/cost of traveling back and forth, both airliner and in automobile?



I live in Washington State, and work in British Columbia. The drive to work is very easy, no problems at the border. My travel time most days is less than when I was living in Canada.

Crossing the border is very easy. On the way north, I average a five minute wait, though there are many mornings when I drive right up to the guard without a wait (such as this morning). Southbound occasionally takes a bit longer, but this is rare. I use a Nexus card going south, which helps out a lot. This cost $50, and lasts for five years.



Kevin said:


> Canadian culture is very similar to the US so the shock would not be to great.



That is what I thought until I moved to Canada. It wasn't necessarily a hard transition, but it was noticeable right up to the day we drove back into the U.S. Canada is a great place to visit, but I didn’t like living there all that much.


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## kvanlaan

Code:


That is what I thought until I moved to Canada. It wasn't necessarily a hard transition, but it was noticeable right up to the day we drove back into the U.S. Canada is a great place to visit, but I didn’t like living there all that much.




What? Too much maple syrup on your pancakes, brother?


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## CatherineL

What are the homeschooling laws like? You can't have firearms right? That would be a big drawback for my husband.


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## Kevin

AThornquist said:


> Are there any parts of Canada that aren't cold? I hate when it gets below 50 degrees.  Besides that, Canada sounds very appealing. I really desire to be in ministry and have a large family. I didn't see the question answered yet--what about homosexuality? Can it safely be preached against?
> 
> My main reason to not like Canada is that I would like to do a lot in the US. Any insight on the difficultly/cost of traveling back and forth, both airliner and in automobile?



Yes, it is Canada. We do have snow & cold winters. If you really feel that God is calling you to ministry then pehaps you should re-consider you plan to only live in places above 50 degrees.

Can any topic can be safely preached against? If safety is the first issue you think of...

Yes some activist here hate the gospel & they have a mechanism that they use to trouble some ministers. Is that so different in CA? BTW that law has been ruled unconstitutional a couple of time lately, and I pray that it is on the way out.

Travel is simple & no more expensive then similar travel within the US, although the US Homeland security is trying to change that.


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## kvanlaan

> What are the homeschooling laws like? You can't have firearms right? That would be a big drawback for my husband.



We homeschool and have had no issues. However, we came in from out side of country and were never 'in the system'. If we were and then left it, the school board may have something to say about it, or at least keep close tabs on us.

You can have firearms, but handguns are almost a no-no, and you need permits to transport them. Rifles for hunting are OK, but clip size is limited here (to five or ten rounds, can't recall...)


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## Osage Bluestem

Is it difficult to buy land in Canada?

Say you wanted to buy a 200 acre place?


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## Kevin

NB has one of the simplest HS laws in North America. Send a letter announcing your intent, or not. No penalty for failure to send the letter. Aprox 25% do send it.

Guns are registered. Similar to the US almost all types of firearms may be owned if you have the proper permit.

Several provinces (we have a federal system with real seperation of powers between the levels of govt.) Have standing orders to not charge or prosecute for long gun violations unless they are used in a crime. So the law is stricter then the US, but we have no ATF & the provences can nullify the most strict regulations.


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## AThornquist

Kevin said:


> Yes, it is Canada. We do have snow & cold winters. If you really feel that God is calling you to ministry then pehaps you should re-consider you plan to only live in places above 50 degrees.
> 
> Can any topic can be safely preached against? If safety is the first issue you think of...



Honestly, I could adjust to the coldness just fine if that's where the Lord wants me to be. I just _prefer_ to be warm. 

And about the safety--the laws would have no bearing on what I preach whatsoever. It was a matter of interest more than anything.

But thanks guys for answering the questions. Canada sounds like a viable option. I like the idea of government programs for large families.


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## Kevin

DD2009 said:


> Is it difficult to buy land in Canada?
> 
> Say you wanted to buy a 200 acre place?



Simple, and here at least cheap. REAL ESTATE FOR SALE IN CANADA


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## kvanlaan

Wow, that's amazingly cheap (and still so southern). I'm sure it's cheaper in the NWT, but tough to enjoy (if you don't have an igloo).

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 03:19:41 EST-----

I could live here:

FARM FOR SALE IN CANADA


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## CovenantalBaptist

It's interesting to see the interactions on this thread. I share Kevin's desire to see more Christians in Canada. I hope and pray that our churches here have the privilege to be instruments in many conversions. Having lived in both countries, I think that there are advantages and disadvantages to living in both. But, to put forth a challenge, I believe that far too much of our decision making is made on the basis of living conditions and freedoms. I could tell you of challenging stories about life in Canada and the US. But how far do you carry the template of living conditions and/or freedom? How would you counsel a native Christian living in a Muslim country - get out? Or, would you encourage him to support the house church that he is involved in? The simple fact is that each one of us is where we are because of God. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be somewhere else. But I believe that more of our effort in determining where we ought to be should be focused in trying to determine where we can be *most useful *in the service of the Lord considering our gifts and circumstances. 

We serve a Sovereign God and He delights in our obediently seeking to fulfill the good works which He prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10). So it is good to consider how we might better do those good works. God has provided prayer as a means to petition His will. Practically speaking, God also provides Godly counsel through His Church. Perhaps some of the folks reading this could begin with something as simple as meeting with your pastor to seek counsel and to help evaluate your gifts and offer service in your home congregation or, depending on your gifts/circumstances, elsewhere on the mission field (home or foreign).


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## Osage Bluestem

Kevin said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it difficult to buy land in Canada?
> 
> Say you wanted to buy a 200 acre place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simple, and here at least cheap. REAL ESTATE FOR SALE IN CANADA
Click to expand...


Very Cheap!

That is tempting indeed.

I like this one:

OLD CHURCHES OF NEW BRUNSWICK CANADA


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## Kevin

kvanlaan said:


> Wow, that's amazingly cheap (and still so southern). I'm sure it's cheaper in the NWT, but tough to enjoy (if you don't have an igloo).
> 
> -----Added 11/25/2009 at 03:19:41 EST-----
> 
> I could live here:
> 
> FARM FOR SALE IN CANADA



Hey kev, that place is just a few miles from a couple of dutch reformed families!

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 03:51:39 EST-----

I can almost certainly say that if you lived here, you could preach there! It is a part of a 4 point charge that is pastored by a nice young fairly conservative guy (PCC). Our fellowship provides pulpit supply for him when he is on vacation. 

That is one of 8 churches that we provided supply for last year.



DD2009 said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it difficult to buy land in Canada?
> 
> Say you wanted to buy a 200 acre place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simple, and here at least cheap. REAL ESTATE FOR SALE IN CANADA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very Cheap!
> 
> That is tempting indeed.
> 
> I like this one:
> 
> OLD CHURCHES OF NEW BRUNSWICK CANADA
Click to expand...


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## Edward

Kevin said:


> I'm not kidding.
> 
> Canadian culture is very similar to the US so the shock would not be to great. US credentials & certifications (in most cases) are instantly accepted. Pay rates here are a bit higher. People get longer vacations.
> 
> Tax rate is a bit higher, but not likely for much longer. But consider the plus side.
> 
> 1) family tax credit. A large family with a modest income (10 kids 40k per year) would recieve aprox 40k per year tax free. To have the same spending power in the US would require more than $100,000 per year. (calculate your amount here Child and Family Benefits Online Calculator
> 
> 2) No medical cost out of pocket, except for drugs.
> 
> 3) we need people.
> 
> 4) Curling! CURLING
> 
> 5) move to NB & be part of an exciting church plant



I don't know that many of us could deal with the lack of personal freedom, such as the threat of prosecution for proclaiming the politically incorrect parts of the Scriptures, or the restrictions on tools of self defense.


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## CatherineL

No plans to move, Pastor Chris, just curious! My friends who live in Canada are pretty young and the main things I've heard a lot about are 1) 3 week waits to get in to see the primary care doctor 2) unemployment benefits that make it pointless to look for work until 6 months after you lose your job and 3) getting a paid year off after having a baby.

Of course, we are a DoD family, so not going anywhere outside the good old USA unless sent there.


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## Kevin

I lived in the US for 17 years (TN/GA, FL, & DC). I can honestly say that the US has more police patrols, roadblocks, & general climate of a "police state" by an order od magnitude greater then Canada.

The police force any place I lived in the US would be 4 to 5 x's larger then the size of force in a Canadian city of the same size. Crime rates are of course many times higher in the US, but all of that manpower has to be kept busy. I recall DUI checkpoints as an almost weekly event. 

So yes the laws on the books may be more restrictive, and I can no longer carry a handgun. But I can honestly say that at no point in the last 8 years have I ever felt afraid.

When my wife is asked by locals what is diferent about life here compared to her hometown of Atlanta, she always says that here she has never been afraid for her safety. She can ride the bus, walk alone at night, go downtown, and she has never encountered a situation here that made feel afraid.

So yes it is a trade-off. But I'll take it.


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## matt01

CatherineL said:


> 1) 3 week waits to get in to see the primary care doctor 2) unemployment benefits that make it pointless to look for work until 6 months after you lose your job and 3) getting a paid year off after having a baby.



I have never had to wait that long to see a GP, though there are long waits for specialists. We were on a waiting list for quite a time before getting a midwife.

The year of parental leave is certainly different. I only took a week for each of my children, but there are many men in my organization who have taken the full year a couple of times.


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## kvanlaan

> But, to put forth a challenge, *I believe that far too much of our decision making is made on the basis of living conditions and freedoms.* I could tell you of challenging stories about life in Canada and the US. But how far do you carry the template of living conditions and/or freedom?



It is indeed. I don't think we can talk about 'poverty' and 'lack of freedom' in Canada without making a mockery of Third World poverty and hardship. But we only look at what we used to have here...


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## kvanlaan

> When my wife is asked by locals what is diferent about life here compared to her hometown of Atlanta, she always says that here she has never been afraid for her safety. She can ride the bus, walk alone at night, go downtown, and she has never encountered a situation here that made feel afraid.
> 
> So yes it is a trade-off. But I'll take it.



Dude, you're in New Brunswick. 

Hamilton is only about 300,000 people, but you're asking for trouble (and a proposition or three from a curbside service provider) if you walk downtown at night. Atlanta has only ~250,000 people less than your entire province! I don't doubt Atlanta was unsafe in places, but the province of New Brunswick is pretty much a postcard anywhere you go. For pity's sake man, you could frame most of those real estate listings you showed! You don't live in Canada, you live in the Maritimes. Driving through them is a holiday on its own, just for the scenery. It's exquisite.

Welcome to Hamilton. We are known as Canada's Steel City.

Stelco:






Dofasco:





Slater Steel:





Among others. And Hamilton is pretty good compared to some. We do have beautiful areas too (some don't).

And here's New Brunswick: http://www.new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/images.html

It's gorgeous. Simply gorgeous.

-----Added 11/25/2009 at 06:41:04 EST-----



> The year of parental leave is certainly different. I only took a week for each of my children, but there are many men in my organization who have taken the full year a couple of times.



This sounds awesome on the one hand, but I'm not sure I could handle a year of that. That being said, one of the assistants in the office is out for a year for that very thing.


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## Kevin

who wouldn't want to live here?

Images from, New Brunswick, Canada


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## kvanlaan

That's just the thing; Atlanta could be crime-free with free beer and it still wouldn't look like NB.

PS - your wife must have the coolest accent: Southern Belle meets Cape Breton. Whoa!


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## matt01

kvanlaan said:


> Dude, you're in New Brunswick.



When we were in Surrey (B.C.), we carried dog spray to go to the park during the day. There wasn't any real problem with dogs...I would only rarely walk outside at night. My wife never did.


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## bookslover

Have a big family, in only two steps:

Step 1: Get married.
Step 2: Have a lot of sex.

See? Problem solved.


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## kvanlaan

> 1) family tax credit. A large family with a modest income (10 kids 40k per year) would recieve aprox 40k per year tax free. To have the same spending power in the US would require more than $100,000 per year. (calculate your amount here Child and Family Benefits Online Calculator
> 
> 2) No medical cost out of pocket, except for drugs.



Sorry, thought I could avoid this, but I must address it. Every time I read it, it bugs me.

This first point is simply not true (and feels a little pointed, to be honest). Though the online calculator may show this to be the case, I can tell you in practice that it does not ring true. We simply do not get this benefit to this extent - yes, we get some (and it helps a great deal), but _not_ that much. We would not be living as we do if that were the case. I don't know that the $100,000 per year is accurate either. I'd like to see the math on that.

In addition, the medical costs are indeed covered once you are a permanent resident here, but becoming one (especially if you are a foreign wife or foreign child of a Canadian) is fraught with red tape. We have been here over a year and they tell me it will be at least six more months before my wife is able to access the medical system, never mind the children. In this time, we have spent thousands upon thousands in medical costs out of pocket, in addition to the cost of carrying international health insurance for the family for catastrophic issues (we all have the wrong bugs to be healthy here, though we are acquiring them slowly ).

Sorry, rant off.


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## Andres

bookslover said:


> Have a big family, in only two steps:
> 
> Step 1: Get married.
> Step 2: Have a lot of sex.
> 
> See? Problem solved.



Step one is of course a must, but step 2 isn't always neccessary. For example, a couple could have 10 children and have only been intimate 10 times. On the flip side, a couple could be intimate on a regular basis and yet the woman not get pregnant. The key factor would be whether or not God chooses for the woman to conceive, but then I guess we would be getting on a topic that was beaten to death previously. ..


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## BertMulder

AThornquist said:


> Are there any parts of Canada that aren't cold? I hate when it gets below 50 degrees.  Besides that, Canada sounds very appealing. I really desire to be in ministry and have a large family. I didn't see the question answered yet--what about homosexuality? Can it safely be preached against?
> 
> My main reason to not like Canada is that I would like to do a lot in the US. Any insight on the difficultly/cost of traveling back and forth, both airliner and in automobile?



never had it get to below 50 yet....

minus 46 is my record... Celsius, of course, which is -50.8... just one time!

-----Added 11/26/2009 at 10:10:30 EST-----



kvanlaan said:


> When my wife is asked by locals what is diferent about life here compared to her hometown of Atlanta, she always says that here she has never been afraid for her safety. She can ride the bus, walk alone at night, go downtown, and she has never encountered a situation here that made feel afraid.
> 
> So yes it is a trade-off. But I'll take it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, you're in New Brunswick.
> 
> Hamilton is only about 300,000 people, but you're asking for trouble (and a proposition or three from a curbside service provider) if you walk downtown at night. Atlanta has only ~250,000 people less than your entire province! I don't doubt Atlanta was unsafe in places, but the province of New Brunswick is pretty much a postcard anywhere you go. For pity's sake man, you could frame most of those real estate listings you showed! You don't live in Canada, you live in the Maritimes. Driving through them is a holiday on its own, just for the scenery. It's exquisite.
> 
> Welcome to Hamilton. We are known as Canada's Steel City.
> 
> Stelco:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dofasco:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slater Steel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Among others. And Hamilton is pretty good compared to some. We do have beautiful areas too (some don't).
> 
> And here's New Brunswick: Images from, New Brunswick, Canada
> 
> It's gorgeous. Simply gorgeous.
> 
> -----Added 11/25/2009 at 06:41:04 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The year of parental leave is certainly different. I only took a week for each of my children, but there are many men in my organization who have taken the full year a couple of times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds awesome on the one hand, but I'm not sure I could handle a year of that. That being said, one of the assistants in the office is out for a year for that very thing.
Click to expand...


That is just like my (office) front view, except substitute refinery row for the steel furnaces. But otherwise, exactly the same.

-----Added 11/26/2009 at 10:13:07 EST-----



C. M. Sheffield said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Curling?
> 
> This is one I've just never understood. What a odd sport!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, outside of curling, Canada would be almost perfect...
> 
> But, we have stranger sports yet...
> 
> In one, grown men on skates! chase a piece of rubber with sticks....
> 
> In another, grown men riding around in carts with a bag full of sticks hit little white balls...
> 
> -----Added 11/26/2009 at 10:19:46 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> CatherineL said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are the homeschooling laws like? You can't have firearms right? That would be a big drawback for my husband.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Differs from province to province. Here in Alberta, we get about $2,000 grant per child for homeschooling... Of course we do pay the school taxes...
> 
> -----Added 11/26/2009 at 10:25:00 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, thought I could avoid this, but I must address it. Every time I read it, it bugs me.
> 
> This first point is simply not true (and feels a little pointed, to be honest). Though the online calculator may show this to be the case, I can tell you in practice that it does not ring true. We simply do not get this benefit to this extent - yes, we get some (and it helps a great deal), but _not_ that much. We would not be living as we do if that were the case. I don't know that the $100,000 per year is accurate either. I'd like to see the math on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Beg to differ with you on this, my friend, but the $40,000 tax free is just about true, depending on the province of course... Of course the comparison with $100,000 US just does not fly.... And $40,000 does not take you very far with 10 kids.... especially as you consider the housing and energy needs in our admittedly colder climate...
> 
> Having emigrated to Canada from the Netherlands, I could add this, that compared to the Netherlands, Canada is a land where you have to work for a living. If you want social welfare, go to Holland.
> 
> Yes, freedom of speech is limited here. But, with the present US administration, how far is the US behind in that....
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## bookslover

Andres said:


> For example, a couple could have 10 children and have only been intimate 10 times.



Yeah, but what are the chances of that happening? The husband would have to be a better marksman than Annie Oakley!


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## AThornquist

bookslover said:


> Have a big family, in only two steps:
> 
> Step 1: Get married.
> Step 2: Have a lot of sex.
> 
> See? Problem solved.




Sign me up!


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## kvanlaan

> Beg to differ with you on this, my friend, but the $40,000 tax free is just about true, depending on the province of course...



All I'm saying is that we don't get that much. I mean, I did the calculator thing a few times to try to get the figure quoted. It did say a few times that this was an estimate only, so that makes sense then, that the two don't match. But why on earth they would give you an estimate that is not accurate is beyond me.


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## TimV

> 1) family tax credit. A large family with a modest income (10 kids 40k per year) would recieve aprox 40k per year tax free. To have the same spending power in the US would require more than $100,000 per year. (calculate your amount here Child and Family Benefits Online Calculator



Americans with 10 kids aren't taxed a cent on an income of 40K, except for business owners who have to pay self employment taxes, and that would be well under 10 percent with all the adjustments and child credits. When I had all 7 living at home I could make quite a bit more than 40K and not pay any regular income taxes. Others here with lots of kids will tell you the same. If you earn 50K per year the total taxes of any kind are under 10 percent when all is said and done.

I think the main financial difference was mentioned earlier, and that's Canada doesn't have troops in 177 countries and doesn't feel obligated to do everything that the Israeli lobby orders. So they have extra money that they choose to use for free health care and I assume much cheaper college.


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## Kevin

OK, here goes. Now I am not a CA (CPA in the US) but an estimator by trade so her is my justification of the 40k in Canada is the equvalent of 100k (pre tax) in the US for a family of 10 or more kids under the age of 18

Base pay in Canada $40,000.

With exemptions actual "take home" aprox $36,000.

Value of medical insurance (based on what I paid in GA 8 years ago) aprox $20,000. Pre-tax dollars needed to purchase $20,000 policy $24,000.

Value of family tax benifit (incl provincal suppliment & $100 per month bonus for all under 6 yo) Aprox $40,000 per year. Pre-tax that you would need to earn to have 40k "tax free" aprox $48,000.

Total that a family of 10 kids (under 18) would need to earn pre-tax in the USA in order to have a similar lifestyle in Canada;

$112,000 per year. Depending on tax rate & exemptions (i.e. family biz, self-employed etc) a person in the USA could have the same lifestyle @ 75-85k if their employer provided health care. But in fact that would be a benifit in place of income.

Now I am not suggesting that a person with 75-100k per year in the USA, or 40-50k in Canada is "rich". Neither do I mean by lifestyle did I mean to imply that they are flying everybody to disney for Spring-break.

I just meant to point out that a family with 40k & 10 kids a year in the USA would be delivering those kids in a back bedroom with a half-trained midwife. Because the 14k that it costs to have a hospital birth is an unimagined luxury. Let alone the 2,000 bucks a month that insurance would cost. So this is not an issue of buying new vs used clothes for the kids, this is medical care, or not. This is owning vs renting. This is variety & quantity of food.

Now when I lived in TN I had a friend that had 13 kids & made 40k per year. He struggled to give them all clothes that fit and a balenced diet. Medical care & dental care was out of the question. There house was clean, but by Canadian standards was completely unsuitable.

So I know that it "can" be done. But that same brother, if he lived here would have medical care, a more suitable home, and plenty to eat with the same income.


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## kvanlaan

It still doesn't quite fit our situation, but thanks for showing that (I couldn't figure out how you arrived at those numbers).

OK, so here's another example (without any gov't assistance in any way).

When we lived in China with 5 children (that's seven of us total), I was making ~$1300 USD a month, for a total of ~$15,600 (in the last year of our time there, it was a bit higher). Take 20% off the top in income tax, and you have $12,480. To be fair, the school I was with gave a small stipend that covered a portion of our rent of about $600/month. Elizabeth taught one lesson of art per week at the local Christian school, for about $50/month.

Staples:
Pork (the main meat of the Chinese diet): ~$3/lb (and no such thing as a sale, ever). Some people we knew ate meat only once a week. It is only $.99/lb on sale here.
Health insurance: ~$3000/year for basic coverage, and personal augmentation out of pocket as needed (and it was frequently needed!)
Eggs: about $1/dozen (so, they're cheaper)
Bread, about $2/Canadian loaf (same price)
Fruit was cheaper.

This is in the last few years we lived there - inflation was incredible and burdensome to the locals.

You must add to this the idea that we had to save to go anywhere (you can't walk or drive to N America from there). I took the bus/taxi/biked to work as necessary to make it work - no car. A few judicious investments made years earlier augmented our income by, on average, $1000 a year. And we had a house helper. I did some tutoring on the side to make a little extra money and wrote a column in the local paper as well to help out. And it worked.

He always has provided. We could have worried about it and put the brakes on childbearing, etc. but we left it up to God's sovereignty. It worked.


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