# Questions about seminary and greek



## LeeJUk (Feb 22, 2010)

Hi guys,

Well basically a few weeks ago I began the process of extended enquiry in the C of S for ministry of word and sacrament and right now I'm considering what seminary to go to.

Basically I have the choice of Glasgow University which I hear is extremely liberal and one of the first lectures your likely to get will involve one of the liberal lecturer's taking a study bible in front of the class and tearing it to pieces and declaring it to be nonsense(i mean literally tearing up the bible by the way from what I've heard). I don't know that I could ever study there for 1 year never mind 4. Glasgow university is maybe about 20 minutes car ride away from me.

The only remaining theological seminary for the ordaination of the church of Scotland that is actually evangelical and reformed is the highland theological seminary. Now this however is very far from me, I would need to get accommodation (no on-campus accommodation at HTC  ) and because of that I would probably need to take out a student loan or something where as I would be living my with parents if I went to Glasgow Uni. I hear amazing things about HTC and it's faculty though.

So which one do you think I should go for and why?
Glasgow Uni to avoid student loans or HTC ?

I think I'm very much drifting toward HTC at this point for obvious reasons but I just want your insight.

Another thing on my mind is this, I don't think that I'm really smart enough to learn Greek and Hebrew. I have this idea of it being extremely difficult even doing one language never mind 2 and I feel pretty discouraged about that. Did you ever think like this before going to seminary and how then did you find the languages after actually getting there and learning? Was it overwhelming or ?

Thanks guys,

Regards,

Lee


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 22, 2010)

Is Free Church College a possibility?


----------



## LeeJUk (Feb 22, 2010)

Nope. The valid universities and seminaries for training are very limited for C of S.


----------



## bouletheou (Feb 22, 2010)

Go to HTC. I'm a graduate of a liberal seminary. You'll have to unlearn everything you learned there and relearn the truth on your own steam. A very cumbersome process. Plus I've got friends at HTC. I know you'll be educated by godly men.

The Lord will make a way.


----------



## toddpedlar (Feb 22, 2010)

LeeJUk said:


> Nope. The valid universities and seminaries for training are very limited for C of S.


 
I've asked this before, I think at least by implication:

why are you set on ordination in the Church of Scotland? Why not a more Bible-believing denomination instead?


----------



## LeeJUk (Feb 22, 2010)

There are hundreds of biblically faithful churches within our denomination and I think that really there is no other denomination that I would be happy joining with at this moment in time. This is the place God has put me in.


----------



## toddpedlar (Feb 22, 2010)

Okay, clearly not the decision I'd make, but if you are then 100.00% I'd say you have no business even thinking about the U. of Glasgow. HTC, if it's acceptable to the CoS, is what I'd do with no questions, no doubts, even if I had to work three jobs and live in a tiny studio apartment to do it. You won't be educated at the U. of G. - instead, you'll be told the whole basis of the Reformed Faith is dung (and that's putting it nicely) and also that if you really want to be an educated man you need to disavow any notion of God actually decreeing anything, inspiring anything, etc.


----------



## LeeJUk (Feb 22, 2010)

Anyone got comments on the greek side of things?


----------



## uberkermit (Feb 22, 2010)

As to the Greek & Hebrew thing - don't worry about it too much. Do your work, consistently reviewing a little *every day* and you will be fine.


----------



## 21st Century Calvinist (Feb 22, 2010)

Lee,
HTC trumps Glasgow anyday. You would be better served to get your education on the PB than to be taught by God haters. If your professors don't rip you to shreds then your fellow students will. Dingwall is about 150 miles from Glasgow. Many trains and buses run from Glasgow to Inverness every day. The Highlands are lovely(smiley thing won't work, yes I am biased!) If God has called you to this work then God will make the way possible for you. Regards the language requirements- yes I am sure it will be difficult. Get some help, be in a study group, sign up for extra tutorials, etc if you can. Remember that some of the resources God provides you with are the brothers you study with. I think you will probably find a NT Greek course online, perhaps at iTunes. 
But I perceive your biggest problem being the Church of Scotland. Will they accept you as a candidate for the ministry? Will you be required to compromise? I have limited knowledge of the C of S, but find out from those in the know. I really think that you could have a very difficult ride in the C of S as a reformed evangelical. Please pray hard about this. Get others to join you. I personally, on my limited knowledge cannot recommend the C of S.
Anyway, praying that the Lord will make his calling clear to you.


----------



## R. Scott Clark (Feb 23, 2010)

1. Yes HTC is "conservative" but it's not without problems. Andy McGowan has written what is fairly called an ill-advised book on inerrancy. I think he's a Barthian on covenant theology. Mike Bird is no friend of Reformed theology. At least with overt liberals you know what you're getting.

You only get one opportunity to prepare for pastoral ministry. You can't re-do it after you realize that you didn't get the training you should have. Please make sure that you do it right the first time. If it's the UK then go to WTS London or to some other faithful place. 

2. I agree with Todd. Those faithful churches ought to leave the mainline and re-align with the Free Church or some other. The history of staying in the mainline is not promising either in the UK or in N. America. Those "faithful" congregations don't stay so for long. There's a reason why congregations remain in the mainline. Those reasons may not be on the surface but often times it has been because people don't want to pay the price of being marginalized. 

3. Yes, unless you have a learning disability, if you're willing to put in the time, you can learn Greek and Hebrew. It's mostly a matter of discipline. It will take you about an hour a day per language, at least at the start. My impression is that the UK seems to be committed to learning languages inductively. That's a great mistake. Memorization is essential. You must memorize vocab and forms and then learn to apply the rules of grammar to the forms/vocab you've memorized. 

Blessings on your studies.


----------



## SemperEruditio (Feb 23, 2010)

Listen to these men. I'm attending a liberal seminary. You will be amazed at how just about everything that comes out of the mouths of the professors is just plain wrong. It got tiresome after the first year to pick out the good from the bad so in year 2 everything was labeled bad. I skimmed "their" books and read Reformed literature. I have a few practical courses to finish but otherwise I'm done "learning" at my school. I'm now enrolled in RTS and earning a certificate in Biblical/Theological Studies. Don't do double the work especially if you know they are liberal. The thing is you have no idea how liberal they are until you get in class and the discussions start. You need to go somewhere that the Truth is taught unapologetically. You will grow in courage and defend the truth once you get out. I've learned more about how to be a missionary at my seminary than anything else. It's been a great experience at defending the faith but seminary is not the place for that. It is so relaxing and enjoyable to be with men who believe the word of God and teach it as such.

As far as the languages I wouldn't worry. I was worried enough and it hampered/hampering my progress. I'm still amazed, now completing our second semester of Hebrew, that I am able to read and understand...albeit at a glacial pace. Before class started my pastor handed me a printout of some section of 2 Samuel. It looked like some kind of weird squiggles and wiggles and then the pastor turns the sheet around because I was looking at it upside down! Didn't matter because it didn't look any better right side up. I saw that piece of paper this past weekend and got a good laugh because not only do I know which way is up now but I can read a good portion of it, at least to get a very general idea.

I take Greek this coming Fall and I was beginning to worry again. The professor told me to relax because Hebrew is the difficult one. Neither are "easy" persay but Hebrew seems to be kryptonite to many, many men. The problem is that with the languages you HAVE to study EVERY SINGLE DAY. We started Hebrew 1 with 40 students, Hebrew with 22 and now 3 weeks before the midterm are down to 15. The professor figures we may get down to 10-12 in Hebrew exegesis. A few of the guys who quit I know were not studying because I've spoken to them. Others just wanted to take a semester of Hebrew for personal edification. So if you're concerned don't worry just put your hand to the plow and be consistent.

The real trick is keeping up with the languages once you're done. Completing the languages is noteworthy but 10 years later still being able to read & translate Greek & Hebrew is definitely a superhero kinda feat. Stay away from interlinears...


----------



## Irish Presbyterian (Feb 23, 2010)

If you are looking to study for the ministry in C of S you can also study at Aberdeen and New College Edinburgh. Many ministers from the Presbyterian Church in Ireland went over to study at New College just so that they could sit under the ministry of James Philip. Some of the most conservative ministers in our denomination came from this process. If you are definitely called to ministry in the C of S then you need to be mentored in a strongly Reformed and Bible preaching church. You'll have trouble at any of the C of S centres of learning but HTC would still be the best (with the exceptions noted above). I have met Rev Andrew McGowan and he is a very fair and approachable man and not dogmatic about his approach to Scipture and covenant theology. He spoke at our denomination's 'Calvin Conference' last year and had no problem with chatting through his views on covenant theology and was very gracious when we disagreed. I also have a friend who has been at HTC for a few years and took a class on the doctrine of scripture. He had to read McGowan's 'The Divine Spiration of Scripture' and write a paper on the authority of scripture. He leaned towards B.B. Warfield's classic work and Richard Gaffin's 'God's Word in Servant Form'. He was commended for his work and not torn to shreds for disagreeing with the Principal of that time. 

As others have noted above, learning Hebrew and Greek is not easy but it can be done by almost anyone who wants to put in the time. Put in the study and you will gain the rewards. Also, if your English grammar is poor then your ability to learn the languages will be hampered. I'd suggest you pick up a second hand copy of John Wenham's 'The Elements of New Testament Greek' and read the section on English grammar. This will be of great value in helping you approach the languages. Don't check out the online Greek material until you have gone through the English grammar. You are most likely going to study from Jeremy Duff's revision of Wenham's book and you'll not get the same approach online. I'd also suggest befriending a study partner early on. I'm going through Syriac at the moment and it is easy with a friend to keep me accountable.


----------



## LeeJUk (Feb 24, 2010)

Bless God, I would be able to enter the BA ministry programme for HTC even as early as September this year. It seems my grades from school and college are good enough which I thought they wouldn't be ! Also I have the blessing of the church ministry council to pursue education outside of my current presbytery.

I now only need one more thing - affordable accommodation at dingwall... please be in prayer brothers.


----------



## LeeJUk (Mar 11, 2010)

Hey guys just here again with another question about greek.

Well I have gotten my NA 27 greek new testament in the post, and my mounce's workbook and grammar (which im enjoying greatly) and I'm working my way through the chapters.

One I'm wondering is if I should at this stage buy a lexicon and if I should then which one? Or should I only do that later when I'm through with the grammar?

Thanks


----------



## CharlieJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Lee, the lexicon is _the_ fundamental tool of exegetical study apart from the text itself. My advice would be to get BibleWorks or a Logos software package. With Bibleworks, I have something like 10 different lexicons between Hebrew and Greek. Not only that, but I can search straight from text to lexicon and find what I'm looking for with hit highlighting.

BDAG is considered that standard Greek lexicon. Louw-Nida is good as well, but a little different in its conception in purpose. Having a smaller dictionary for quick reading purposes is good too - the Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament is a good pick.


----------



## LeeJUk (Mar 11, 2010)

Hey thanks for your response, I don't think I want to go for software packages I think I want to stick to the books. Sorry but what is "BDAG"?


----------



## uberkermit (Mar 11, 2010)

BDAG is the latest version of the lexicon, _A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature_. The previous version was known as "BAGD". The acronym has to do with the author/editors. Walter Bauer (the B in BDAG) was responsible for the original work, _Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frühchristlichen Literatur_ which BDAG is based upon. The other significant people are W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker. Hence:

*B*auer
*D*anker
*A*rndt
*G*ingrich


Since the most recent revision was the work of Danker, his name appears immediately after Bauer's, hence BDAG (as opposed to the second most recent revision, BAGD).

Of course, of more concern to me is that BDAG is already ten years old. It seems like yesterday when I got my copy!


----------

