# Seminary Advice - MAR vs MDiv for ordination



## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

I would like some counsel and opinions on some future decisions my wife and I are faced with. This is specifically in regards to future education. I believe that I am called to the ministry. My pastor and elders have confirmed this. I am currently in the process of coming under care with our presbytery. I am not clear though on what I should do for my future education. I have a bachelors degree and am now looking at seminaries. I have applied and been accepted to Redeemer Seminary in Dallas. This is the closest seminary that I would consider attending. It is approx 3 hours away from where I currently live, so my wife and I would obviously have to move. My wife is finishing up her masters degree and will graduate this May so the earliest we would move is summer 2011 and I would begin classes that summer/fall. 

Now I am second guessing myself on if that is the best route. I am wondering if we should not move and instead stay here for a few more years. Here are some reasons why: My wife and I want to begin a family. We are praying and hoping to get pregnant as soon as possible. We have a lot of student loan debt. I mean a lot. My wife’s is currently deferred since she’s in school, but when she graduates we will have to begin making payments. We own a home here and I have a good job. Financially it would be a lot easier living here than moving to Dallas, but the biggest reason that I am considering us staying here for a while is because my pastor recently approached me about prayerfully considering becoming an elder at our church. This is a tremendous honor for me and I would very much like to do it. Obviously if we are moving in a less than a year, then I don’t think I should. However, if we stay then I will get to fulfill my calling in ministry and I say this as humbly as possible, but I hope I would be a blessing to my church. 

Of course, if we stay here I still want to begin taking seminary classes. I am now considering the MAR from RTS. It can be completed totally online. Do you think this would be a wise decision or do I truly need to obtain an MDiv if I hope to eventually be ordained for pulpit ministry? I do realize that the MAR is void of languages, but I would still take Greek and Hebrew to learn them. My pastor has multiple graduate degrees including an MA in Greek so I feel he could assist me also. Finally, I think I will be getting great experience as an elder and basically working alongside my pastor. 

Sorry this is so long, but I appreciate any thoughts. FYI I am 30 years old. I do plan on seeing what my pastor thinks about the MAR also, but I just thought I would get some additional viewpoints.


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## jjraby (Jul 23, 2010)

Are you wanting to be an ordained minister?


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 23, 2010)

Do you have the option of doing some distance work, and then applying it to the MDiv at your seminary of choice? Does Redeemer have a distance program that you could work on for a year or two, and then head over there? Or, if not, could you check with them to see if you could transfer credits from distance courses taken through RTS, WTS, GCTS, PRTS, etc. and then apply them to degree requirements for your MDiv at Redeemer?

The advice I received from my mentors in the OPC was something like this:

The best distance degree is the MDiv from Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. --highly recommended (You can do everything but one year from a distance. Instead of moving to SC for your final year, you can go to intensive 2-week sessions every year instead.) Plus, it's cheap!
M.A.R. from RTS was not recommended.


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## Wayne (Jul 23, 2010)

See if you can't configure things such that you would first earn the MAR and then if all is well and life hasn't intruded too greatly, move on to complete the additional requirements for the MDiv.

That said, I don't think the MAR would in itself be sufficient for ordination. There's a 40-50 credit hour difference between the two degrees and that covers a lot of territory.

However, a creative route would be to get the MAR and then a Th.M. in either OT or NT exegetical work, to demonstrate facility with the languages you never officially took for the MAR degree.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

jjraby said:


> Are you wanting to be an ordained minister?



Yes. 



Willem van Oranje said:


> Do you have the option of doing some distance work, and then applying it to the MDiv at your seminary of choice? Does Redeemer have a distance program that you could work on for a year or two, and then head over there? Or, if not, could you check with them to see if you could transfer credits from distance courses taken through RTS, WTS, GCTS, PRTS, etc. and then apply them to degree requirements for your MDiv at Redeemer?
> 
> The advice I received from my mentors in the OPC was something like this:
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for this info. I knew that GPTS had a distance program for the MDiv but I wasn't aware about the 2 week sessions. I was under the impression that I would have to move to SC and unfortunately we do not want to do that. This is part of my problem. We really don't want to move anywhere outside of Texas. That's why my main options are distance ed or Redeemer in Dallas. I will have to add Greenville to my list now and look into them more. Thank you again brother.


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## FenderPriest (Jul 23, 2010)

Andrew, it seems to me that some of these reservations are being prompted by the Spirit. I don't think having debt and then adding more debt with a desire for children (which is good!) makes for a stable financial setting. This opportunity with your church for eldership sounds great! From my own limited experience with seminary, honestly the better graduates are ones who go later in life, who've had more life experience in a local church. It seems interesting to me, and something for you to ponder further, than you're having these hesitating thoughts (for good reasons) while at the same time your pastor is approaching you about more leadership in your church. _Might_ be the Spirit at work here.

As for degree, I think you'd have to consult your denomination's thoughts on what's required for ordination. Personally, I would encourage on-site education to the extent that you can. Distance learning is great, but some of the ways the work I did at Westminster was helpful to me was being able to see the prof's face to face and interact with them.

Just my thoughts here, not divine revelation!


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## greenbaggins (Jul 23, 2010)

Some Presbyteries will accept an M.A.R. for fulfilling the educational requirements, but it will not do for the languages, which are a requirement in all Presbyteries, PCA or OPC. In addition, most of the best pastoral classes are not in the M.A.R., but are in the M.Div. I would therefore highly recommend getting the full M.Div. for pastoral ministry. But don't go to seminary until you are in better financial shape, or you'll never claw your way out of debt. I would also recommend going to the school rather than taking distance education. I realize that distance can work, but there is something about brick and mortar that is simply more. I don't know that I'm such a fan of Redeemer anymore, although they do have some good profs.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

greenbaggins said:


> Some Presbyteries will accept an M.A.R. for fulfilling the educational requirements, but it will not do for the languages, which are a requirement in all Presbyteries, PCA or OPC. In addition, most of the best pastoral classes are not in the M.A.R., but are in the M.Div. I would therefore highly recommend getting the full M.Div. for pastoral ministry. But don't go to seminary until you are in better financial shape, or you'll never claw your way out of debt. I would also recommend going to the school rather than taking distance education. I realize that distance can work, but there is something about brick and mortar that is simply more. I don't know that I'm such a fan of Redeemer anymore, although they do have some good profs.


 
Would you mind expounding on why you say you are not a fan of Redeemer? To be honest, it's not neccessarily my #1 school choice, but its location is what put it at the top of my list.


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## Covenant Joel (Jul 23, 2010)

Andrew,

I'm currently 2 classes and a thesis away from completing the MAR from RTS. I spent a year at the Orlando campus working toward the M.Div. before I switched to the MAR, so I've got some experience in both worlds. I have just a few thoughts to offer:

(1) You can take languages through RTS Virtual. They offer Greek 1-2 and Hebrew 1-2 online. I've heard that they're pretty decent, though I did mine in college, and then just the exegesis classes on campus. But they would definitely give you a solid foundation, and you could continue to expand your ability in the languages through personal (or supervised from your pastor?) study.

(2) RTS offers a church partnership program. If your church helps with 1/3 of the cost of tuition, they wave 1/3 of the cost of tuition, so you'd only pay 1/3 of tuition (roughly $130/credit hour). If you were an elder at your church and that was a possibility, it might be a cost-effective way to get an accredited education.

(3) You will get all of the core biblical and theological courses through the MAR that you would through the MDiv (though you would have less opportunity for extra electives, though there are some good ones). So the foundation is pretty much the same. It totally depends on you whether or not you would get more out of learning these things on campus. In my SysTheo2 class on campus, I never interacted with the prof, just studied the lecture notes, got an A, and I frankly don't remember that much of what we talked about. In my SysTheo1 class online, I listened to some lectures multiple times, studied the lecture notes repeatedly, thought through the issues, and profited greatly from it. Others might have a different experience. But I really think these core classes can be done well online if you have the proper motivation and discipline. 

(4) You would miss out on a lot of practical ministry type courses (e.g., homiletics/preaching). However, since you would be an elder at your local church, it seems to me that that's a better context for learning the practical than sitting in a course would be. And to be honest, at least in the preaching class I took, I think I learned more from the several books we had to read than I did from the lectures. Those who have been preaching for years may have better insight here, but it seems to me that skills like preaching are gained by hearing good preachers, studying the word, reading helpful books on preaching, and getting good feedback from men who will tell it to you like it is.

(5) In RTS' new online classroom, you do have direct interaction with the profs. I've had far more interaction (Q&A, feedback on papers) with professors in this context than I did on campus (though since Redeemer is smaller, you might be able to have more interaction there).

(6) One thing that is different about RTS' MAR is that you have to do a thesis. MDiv programs don't typically require that (I think PRTS might be an exception). It's a chance to really delve into a topic you love.

(7) As far as ordination, I'm facing the same question now. I left Florida for the Middle East for a year, got married, and then took a job in CO in order to provide for my wife. So I switched to the MAR because I couldn't be on campus and I already had 30 credit hours. I've loved the program, but as I'm hopefully going under care soon, I'll have to face the question of whether or not I will need to do more past the MAR. But there have been people ordained in the PCA (not sure about OPC) with the MAR, though it's definitely the exception and depends on the presbytery. So definitely talk to the pastor and presbytery before making a decision. And as someone mentioned above, you may be able to do the MAR or a number of credits from it and then transfer to Redeemer later if you desire. 

Feel free to PM me any specific questions about the RTS program.


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## Miller (Jul 23, 2010)

Aren't their three universities in Abilene? Surely one of them would have Koine Greek and maybe even Hebrew.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

Miller said:


> Aren't their three universities in Abilene? Surely one of them would have Koine Greek and maybe even Hebrew.


 
yeah. I've considered this too. There is a seminary at Hardin Simmons too, so I'm sure I could get some languages in. Does anyone know if taking just languages at a seminary I would never consider actually taking any other courses from is a bad idea? Of course if I don't move to Dallas, then how am I ever gonna go to Faith OPC and eat at BJ's? Such a dilemma!


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 23, 2010)

Andres said:


> Miller said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't their three universities in Abilene? Surely one of them would have Koine Greek and maybe even Hebrew.
> ...


 
Should work just fine. I don't see any issue with you taking Hebrew and Greek somewhere else and transferring the credits. As long as you learn it well, that is. 

I taught myself Greek using Machen's grammar, and then, when I got to Seminary, they let me test out of it, but then they required me to take two extra NT courses to make up for the Greek courses I wouldn't be taking. If I had taken actual Greek courses somewhere (at any accredited college, university, or seminary), they would have just given me transfer credit. (Note: I am not complaining about the extra NT courses.)


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## Miller (Jul 23, 2010)

Andres said:


> Miller said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't their three universities in Abilene? Surely one of them would have Koine Greek and maybe even Hebrew.
> ...


 
Unless you move in the next 8-10 months I'll be gone, but BJ's and Faith OPC will still be there.
I don't think it's a bad idea to take languages at Hardin Simmons but I've been wrong before. My Greek classes at Amarillo College were no at all theological, simply Greek.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

Miller said:


> Andres said:
> 
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> > Miller said:
> ...


 
I think I'm hijacking my own thread, but are you and the fam still going off to Cali and WSC?


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## Miller (Jul 23, 2010)

We're gonna represent illadel where the Barthian killers dwell. What what!

We're going to Philly, although at one time were going to Cali.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

Miller said:


> We're gonna represent illadel where the Barthian killers dwell. What what!
> 
> We're going to Philly, although at one time were going to Cali.


 
Cool dude.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 23, 2010)

My two cents on the topic:

I personally think that sheer knowledge of a subject can be learned without going to a brick and mortar institution. I believe the brick and mortar institutions are better, but not necessary. What cannot be learned via distance learning is pastoring skills. This is why internships are so important. One of the problems with internships though is that one could get paired up with a ministry that for whatever reason rubs you the wrong way. This doesn't apply to you. You have the opportunity to work in your own church (which I would assume you like), under your pastor and elders, and develop the pastor skills needed to properly apply your theological knowledge to your congregation.

So I would strongly consider GPTS via distance learning. You would get a top notch education and still be able to learn pastor skills in a good environment.


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

Chaplainintraining said:


> My two cents on the topic:
> 
> I personally think that sheer knowledge of a subject can be learned without going to a brick and mortar institution. I believe the brick and mortar institutions are better, but not necessary. What cannot be learned via distance learning is pastoring skills. This is why internships are so important. One of the problems with internships though is that one could get paired up with a ministry that for whatever reason rubs you the wrong way. This doesn't apply to you. You have the opportunity to work in your own church (which I would assume you like), under your pastor and elders, and develop the pastor skills needed to properly apply your theological knowledge to your congregation.
> 
> So I would strongly consider GPTS via distance learning. You would get a top notch education and still be able to learn pastor skills in a good environment.


 
This is kind of my thinking too. More ministry opportunities are opening up for me at my church and my pastor is asking me to take on some more responsibilities. Since I have the opportunity to serve my home church, why should I go off to look for ministry opportunities?


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## Steve Curtis (Jul 23, 2010)

Wouldn't be suprised to see Dr. Clark come along any time now...


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

kainos01 said:


> Wouldn't be suprised to see Dr. Clark come along any time now...


 
lol. unless he is going to tell me WSC is beginning to offer distance courses or they are opening a Texas branch, I will not be a good candidate. California is just not in our future.


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## Steve Curtis (Jul 23, 2010)

Andres said:


> kainos01 said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't be suprised to see Dr. Clark come along any time now...
> ...


 
I was referring more to his penchant for brick-and-mortar, as the discussion was tilting toward distance education (which means, by the way, I wouldn't hold my breath for DE courses out of Cali!  )


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## Andres (Jul 23, 2010)

kainos01 said:


> Andres said:
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> 
> > kainos01 said:
> ...


 
very true!


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## Reformed Baptist (Jul 23, 2010)

Praise the Lord for your desire and His calling.


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## beej6 (Jul 24, 2010)

Apologies if this has been addressed above - I don't believe the MAR @ RTS is completely online, you have to attend intensive seminars in Charlotte.


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## Covenant Joel (Jul 25, 2010)

beej6 said:


> Apologies if this has been addressed above - I don't believe the MAR @ RTS is completely online, you have to attend intensive seminars in Charlotte.


 
There are two intensive seminars that you have to attend. The first is an Orientation Seminar near the beginning of the program. It's a 3-day course with pre- and post-class requirements. There is also an integrative seminar at the end of the degree where you present and defend your thesis. You also present how the findings of your thesis can be used to benefit your congregation/ministry context.


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## SemperEruditio (Jul 29, 2010)

Stay where you're at. Apply to Greenville. Do not sacrifice your family for ministry. Your family is your first ministry. Start your family and instead of sacrificing them, sacrifice for them in your sleep so that you can study. It will be slow, almost painfully slow but keep at it.


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