# Scriptural argument against flags in worship



## ClayPot (May 25, 2009)

What are the Biblical/scriptural arguments against having flags in church for theological reasons? I'm not talking about situations where a church is using a public school gymnasium for worship which happens to have a flag or something similar, but where a church actually chooses to bring a flag into the worship setting intentionally. There are a few threads on the PB that discuss this topic but I didn't really see any scriptural arguments. 

I don't have any scriptural arguments on this topic but would like to think more biblically about the subject. It strikes me as odd to have a secular symbol of authority present in our worship service to the God of all creation. I can't imagine the early Christians having a picture of Nero in their worship service to honor their country. Granted, I am thankful for the freedoms that we enjoy in America but America is certainly not a "righteous nation". So I don't see any reason to honor our nation during worship beyond the submission described in the Bible (which doesn't necessitate bringing a flag into worship services).

So do you have Biblical arguments for/against national flags in worship services? Also, since churches that bring flag into worship services probably don't subscribe to the regulative principle, what argument could you make to someone who does not subscribe to the regulative principle.

Edit: Also, I don't want to give the impression that I think we should dishonor or show disrespect to our nation. I am thankful for many of the things America does stand for in spite of the many unrighteous things it stands for and allows. And to those of you who have served in service to our country I thank you greatly. This thread is not about America per se; it applies to believers in China, Brazil, Great Britain, etc.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 25, 2009)

It's not the presence of flags, necessarily, that's wrong. If for instance, a church is renting a government or private facility, there may be flags there. But they have no theological significance for the worship service. It's just a circumstance of the meeting place. 

But if the flags are included in the worship service for theological reasons, then you have a problem, because Scripture does not command the use of flags in worship nor paying homage to our nation as part of our worship. It would violate the regulative principle. Our worship is suppose to transcend nationality, because we belong to one holy nation now. In public worship, we join with all Christians everywhere. Including honor to our own nation would immediately divide our worship from the worship of the global church, particularly if our nations are at odds with one another. 

We may show our respect for the civil authorities in worship by obeying the command to "pray for kings and all those in authority." And hopefully, we not only pray for our own kings but for others in the world too, particularly those who are persecuting the church, that they would repent and let the church live peacefully within their borders.


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## Knoxienne (May 25, 2009)




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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

Puritan Sailor said:


> But if the flags are included in the worship service for theological reasons, then you have a problem, because Scripture does not command the use of flags in worship nor paying homage to our nation as part of our worship. It would violate the regulative principle. Our worship is suppose to transcend nationality, because we belong to one holy nation now. In public worship, we join with all Christians everywhere. Including honor to our own nation would immediately divide our worship from the worship of the global church, particularly if our nations are at odds with one another.



I'm not aware of any church, which has a national flag in its area of worship, which uses the flag as a part of worship. It tends to be more a matter of decor than an element of worship.


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## Edward (May 25, 2009)

There seems to be a cultural element at work, as well. They were rare in Southern churches in my youth, and seemed to be ubiquitous in Northern churches. 

I am concerned about the message they send. We have worshipers from at least a dozen nationalities. Are we sending them a message that they aren't really welcome in an American church? And is THAT message Biblical? 

From experience, you may well get complaints from some of the politically conservative members if you remove them. And then have the issue as to whether the stresses on the body of removing them are worth the benefit of having them gone. (At least they got moved from the platform to the front corners of the room so that they aren't a focal point. Probably a wise solution).

Most of which is not really responsive to the question above.


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## LawrenceU (May 25, 2009)

I never saw one in a worship facility until I left Dixie. I rarely seem them here now. Up North, a whole 'nuther story.


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

Edward said:


> I am concerned about the message they send. We have worshipers from at least a dozen nationalities. Are we sending them a message that they aren't really welcome in an American church? And is THAT message Biblical?



Why would that be the message they receive? Why wouldn't the presence of a flag say "welcome to America?" I'm not arguing for a flag to be present, but asking why would the presence of a flag immediately result in a message of exclusion rather than inclusion. When they landed at an American airport, or crossed the border, they encountered an American flag. Do you assume the presence of that flag at points of embarkation gave them the message "go home" or "welcome?"


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## Montanablue (May 25, 2009)

> There seems to be a cultural element at work, as well. They were rare in Southern churches in my youth, and seemed to be ubiquitous in Northern churches



I would agree - there's definitely a cultural element here. I've actually seen them more in southern and midwestern churches - in areas that are more generally known for being "patriotic" I think. I think that many parishioners see the flag as showing support for the armed forces. When many in the congregation have close relatives serving in dangerous areas overseas, removing the flags can be a really sensitive subject and could possibly cause pain to those in the congregation. I'm not saying that means the flags should stay - just that the issue should be approached with the appropriate sensitivity.

I've been thinking for a little bit now about possible scriptural arguments against having a national flag in worship. I actually haven't been able to come up with anything relevant, so I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts. It _seems_ wrong to me, but I can't come up with anything concrete. 

Edit:

How did I miss this post? 



> But if the flags are included in the worship service for theological reasons, then you have a problem, because Scripture does not command the use of flags in worship nor paying homage to our nation as part of our worship. It would violate the regulative principle. Our worship is suppose to transcend nationality, because we belong to one holy nation now. In public worship, we join with all Christians everywhere. Including honor to our own nation would immediately divide our worship from the worship of the global church, particularly if our nations are at odds with one another.



Yes, I agree with this. I also think that if the flags take up a prominent place in the church, it could be argued that they're becoming a part of worship. The preaching of God's word (the pulpit) in my opinion should be the central focus of a worship space.

-----Added 5/25/2009 at 11:17:35 EST-----



LawrenceU said:


> I never saw one in a worship facility until I left Dixie. I rarely seem them here now. Up North, a whole 'nuther story.



I'm just curious, when you say "up north" do you mean New England, upper midwest, upper Atlantic, or another area? I'm just curious as to which regions this is happening in. I've seen them rarely in Montana, and when I spent some time in New England, I didn't see any. (I chalked it up to ambivalent attitude that many New Englanders seemed to have about patriotism.) On the other hand, I feel like I saw them in a LOT of midwestern churches (Iowa, Indiana, etc).


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> I never saw one in a worship facility until I left Dixie. I rarely seem them here now. Up North, a whole 'nuther story.



Some historical research would be necessary to answer this question. Is the absence of the American flag in southern churches theological or tied to the Civil War and not wanting to have the flag of the north in their buildings? That might make for a good master's thesis.


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## Knoxienne (May 25, 2009)

There's a flag in our sanctuary, but it's just wrapped around the pole, hidden behind video equipment, artificial foliage, etc. I really don't know when it's used. One time we had VBS at our church and they had the classes in the sanctuary and the stars and stripes along with the Christian flag were displayed so the children could recite both pledges, but there never has been any using the flag for worship or any type of preaching or language that would indicate misplaced priorities.


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## ClayPot (May 25, 2009)

Puritan Sailor said:


> It's not the presence of flags, necessarily, that's wrong. If for instance, a church is renting a government or private facility, there may be flags there. But they have no theological significance for the worship service. It's just a circumstance of the meeting place.
> 
> But if the flags are included in the worship service for theological reasons, then you have a problem, because Scripture does not command the use of flags in worship nor paying homage to our nation as part of our worship. It would violate the regulative principle. Our worship is suppose to transcend nationality, because we belong to one holy nation now. In public worship, we join with all Christians everywhere. Including honor to our own nation would immediately divide our worship from the worship of the global church, particularly if our nations are at odds with one another.
> 
> We may show our respect for the civil authorities in worship by obeying the command to "pray for kings and all those in authority." And hopefully, we not only pray for our own kings but for others in the world too, particularly those who are persecuting the church, that they would repent and let the church live peacefully within their borders.



Thanks for your helpful post. I realized that I was a little too ambiguous in the original post and have edited it slightly for clarity. Thanks again for the response.


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## LawrenceU (May 25, 2009)

Kathleen,
I would define the geography of my experience as anything west of Arkansas and Louisiana/ north of the Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina line / down the coast and excise Florida and you have the area. I saw the rampant in the Midwest, Upper Midwest, Lower New England, the Central Atlantic Cost, and the Southwest. I will admit that in churches that are trying to be 'with it' in the South you will more often find a flag of some type than in the the more conservative churches. I worked for three years in a ministry that placed me in hundreds of church facilities. This was something I sort of got a kick out of noticing.

Lance,
I've often thought the same thing. I do know that when I've asked about the absence of a flag the answer is almost always theological.


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## Montanablue (May 25, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > I never saw one in a worship facility until I left Dixie. I rarely seem them here now. Up North, a whole 'nuther story.
> ...



Uh-oh...you've got the wheels in the historian part of my brain... Kathleen has a new project to research! 

-----Added 5/25/2009 at 11:39:32 EST-----



LawrenceU said:


> Kathleen,
> I would define the geography of my experience as anything west of Arkansas and Louisiana/ north of the Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina line / down the coast and excise Florida and you have the area. I saw the rampant in the Midwest, Upper Midwest, Lower New England, the Central Atlantic Cost, and the Southwest. I will admit that in churches that are trying to be 'with it' in the South you will more often find a flag of some type than in the the more conservative churches. I worked for three years in a ministry that placed me in hundreds of church facilities. This was something I sort of got a kick out of noticing.
> 
> Lance,
> I've often thought the same thing. I do know that when I've asked about the absence of a flag the answer is almost always theological.



Thanks! Interesting... Come to think of it, the churches I have visited in the South have been of a more evangelical/ "with it" flavor than reformed. 

Off topic -but in one church I visited in the midwest (I think it was Iowa, but I wouldn't swear to it) there was actually a Dutch flag!


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Lance,
> I've often thought the same thing. I do know that when I've asked about the absence of a flag the answer is almost always theological.



Well, we both know that sometimes historical/political reasons are hidden behind more pious sounding religious reasons.


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## LawrenceU (May 25, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > Lance,
> ...



Yep. One thing that I've wondered about as well is that in my visiting churches an American flag was almost standard in every 'black' church regardless of denomination, regardless of geography.


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > LawrenceU said:
> ...



Interesting, and that's another chapter in Kathleen's research.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 25, 2009)

A flag is a symbol of sovereignty. Ask yourself, "Why would it ever be appropriate to declare praise of a lesser authority in a setting presumably devoted to "another king, one Jesus" (Acts 17:7)?

Is.48:11, "My glory I will not share with another."

Is.49:23. "Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. *With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet.* Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame." 

Is.40:17, "All nations before him are as nothing; and *they are counted to him less than nothing*, and vanity."


Secular patriotism has no place in the public worship of God.


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## Knoxienne (May 25, 2009)

I think as long as there's no "my country/nationality right or wrong" type nationalistic attitude being promoted, and no pledge to the flag in the service (I don't pledge at all anywhere since my primary allegiance is to God, not my country) I don't think there's anything wrong with it just being there. 

I appreciate this discussion. Like others, I'm still looking into this topic.


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## larryjf (May 25, 2009)

There are certain rules that are supposed to be followed in displaying the American flag. If you have a Christian Cross flag behind one side of the pulpit, and an American flag behind the other side, the rules state that the American flag must take preeminence, which means it must be on the preacher's right hand side.

So i don't consider it as innocuous as some.


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

larryjf said:


> There are certain rules that are supposed to be followed in displaying the American flag. If you have a Christian Cross flag behind one side of the pulpit, and an American flag behind the other side, the rules state that the American flag must take preeminence, which means it must be on the preacher's right hand side.
> 
> So i don't consider it as innocuous as some.



Actually the rule on displaying the flag is it is to be to the right of the "one in authority." In some churches it is to the pastor's right .. in other's it is to the congregation's right. An interesting symbol of church polity. And other flags are to be lower than the US flag, except the Christian symbol. In my time in the Army chaplaincy there was one flag which was not displayed lower than the US flag and that was the Chaplain's flag. It did not dip to the US flag when it passed.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 25, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > But if the flags are included in the worship service for theological reasons, then you have a problem, because Scripture does not command the use of flags in worship nor paying homage to our nation as part of our worship. It would violate the regulative principle. Our worship is suppose to transcend nationality, because we belong to one holy nation now. In public worship, we join with all Christians everywhere. Including honor to our own nation would immediately divide our worship from the worship of the global church, particularly if our nations are at odds with one another.
> ...



I would agree in the minds of most people today that is the case. The test though would be, what happens if you were to suggest removing the flags? What would the reaction be among the congregation? Then the underlying theological reasons for having the flags present in the worship service would be revealed. 

If they are truly holding to the Reformed and biblical view of worship, then there would be no objection to removing the flags, because they are not essential to Christian worship. If someone objects, with the argument that we must honor our country as part of our worship, then you essentially have a problem of syncretism, worshipping or honoring King Jesus with another king beside him, and binding the conscience of everyone present (citizen or not) to honor your nation beside Jesus in public worship.


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## ClayPot (May 25, 2009)

Joshua said:


> How 'bout the 1st, 2nd, and 4th commandments?
> 1. We must worship the _right_ (only) God.
> 2. We must worship the _right_ God_ rightly_.
> 3. We must keep the right God's day _rightly_.​ Of course, I understand if a congregation's meeting somewhere that's not there own place, and there happens to be flags there. Maybe they could cover them up somehow, if not, well I don't think there's sin on the part of the church.



Thanks for your reply Joshua. One quick question about this. If you asked a person whether they were "worshipping" our country or our government I'm sure they would say no. How would you convince them that they were in fact breaking these commandments by choosing or wanting to have a national flag in the worship service? Thanks.


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## toddpedlar (May 25, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> I think as long as there's no "my country/nationality right or wrong" type nationalistic attitude being promoted, and no pledge to the flag in the service (I don't pledge at all anywhere since my primary allegiance is to God, not my country) I don't think there's anything wrong with it just being there.
> 
> I appreciate this discussion. Like others, I'm still looking into this topic.



But if it's there, it is saying something (just as would be the "Jesus' High School Photograph" painting if it were there but never referred to). 

There's really a two-fold problem here. If there's reference to the flag in worship (July 4 for instance) then there's a problem of one kind. If there's never any reference to the flag in any worship service or activity, then it should be removed - as Bruce has already noted, it has NO rightful place in the sanctuary of God's church.


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## Whitefield (May 25, 2009)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I would agree in the minds of most people today that is the case. The test though would be, what happens if you were to suggest removing the flags? What would the reaction be among the congregation? Then the underlying theological reasons for having the flags present in the worship service would be revealed.
> 
> If they are truly holding to the Reformed and biblical view of worship, then there would be no objection to removing the flags, because they are not essential to Christian worship. If someone objects, with the argument that we must honor our country as part of our worship, then you essentially have a problem of syncretism, worshipping or honoring King Jesus with another king beside him, and binding the conscience of everyone present (citizen or not) to honor your nation beside Jesus in public worship.



I see your logic here .... if we propose to remove the flag, and they don't object because it is not a part of worship, but more decor; then, we can leave the flags in there.

-----Added 5/25/2009 at 02:35:58 EST-----

Well, I guess I'm out of this thread ... I see the presence of a flag, green carpet, horizontal blinds over the windows instead vertical as all matters of indifference ... but it seems that view is in violation of the ten commandments and sinful.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 25, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > I would agree in the minds of most people today that is the case. The test though would be, what happens if you were to suggest removing the flags? What would the reaction be among the congregation? Then the underlying theological reasons for having the flags present in the worship service would be revealed.
> ...



If they don't object, then that would tell you there is no syncetrism on their part. 

But I would still remove them, because a flag is not just simple decor. It is a symbol of national allegiance. And even though in the worship of the regular congregation there may be no sin, it may not be so received by a foreign visiting Christian. Because they would still ask the question, if it's not important, why is it there? Even the circumstances of worship must have some justification. Sure, the decor may just be there because it looks more pleasant than concrete and dry wall. But a US flag would probably not be neutral decor to a visiting Palestinian Christian (just one example). And most patriots and governments do not consider their national flag to be simple decor either.


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## Edward (May 25, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I'm just curious, when you say "up north" do you mean New England, upper midwest, upper Atlantic, or another area? I'm just curious as to which regions this is happening in. I've seen them rarely in Montana, and when I spent some time in New England, I didn't see any. (I chalked it up to ambivalent attitude that many New Englanders seemed to have about patriotism.) On the other hand, I feel like I saw them in a LOT of midwestern churches (Iowa, Indiana, etc).



I don't want to speak for anyone else, but your 'midwest' includes a lot (but not all) of my 'up north'. I probably should have excluded New England from my comment, for the reasons you have stated.

-----Added 5/25/2009 at 03:30:15 EST-----



Whitefield said:


> Some historical research would be necessary to answer this question. Is the absence of the American flag in southern churches theological or tied to the Civil War and not wanting to have the flag of the north in their buildings? That might make for a good master's thesis.



Interesting question. I've always suspected that the latter may have had some influence, although the churches that I've been in without a flag have tended to be more conservative theology. 

I am enjoying learning from my brothers and sisters on this thread.


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## Scottish Lass (May 25, 2009)

Anecdotally, nearly every Southern church I've been in (PCUSA, ARP/Georgia, Mississippi, Kentucky) have displayed flags behind the preacher.


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## calgal (May 25, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Off topic -but in one church I visited in the midwest (I think it was Iowa, but I wouldn't swear to it) there was actually a Dutch flag!



I asked my FIL (he is Dutch from NW Iowa) and his first words were "Netherlands Reformed?" They have their sermons in Dutch and are "very Calvinist" in his words.


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## Montanablue (May 25, 2009)

calgal said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Off topic -but in one church I visited in the midwest (I think it was Iowa, but I wouldn't swear to it) there was actually a Dutch flag!
> ...



Hmmm... Well, the sermon was most definitely in English! It was a church that had some sort of Dutch connection (obviously). I want to say CRC, but that's not it. I think it was more conservative than the CRC. I was visiting a friend at Dordt College and went to church with her.


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## Knoxienne (May 25, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...



Perhaps a URCNA (they broke off from the CRC several years ago) or a Protestant Reformed Church? The PRC is more conservative than the URCNA. Lots of URCNA kids go to Dordt.


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## calgal (May 25, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...



Hmmm! URC maybe? Or PRC? I don't know if NR churches still do everything in Dutch or not (anyone?)


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## D. Paul (May 25, 2009)

Should someone have this discussion with Mr. Greenbaggins?


http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/what-does-your-pulpit-look-like-46269/



btw....THAT is some photo!


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## Kevin (May 26, 2009)

This is SO AMERICAN!!!!

Here a current photo of the Queen is a fixture in 90%+ of protestant churches. (What you think the POPE is the head of the church...)

However after 17 years in the south I am sensitive to this issue.

The church does have a legitimate role in the social, political, and cultural life of the nation. So National symbols are (sometimes) appropriat. Often they are not. 

If you were in a christian church in the 30's in Germany would the current national flag have been "appropriat"?


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## forgivenmuch (May 26, 2009)

Contra_Mundum said:


> A flag is a symbol of sovereignty. Ask yourself, "Why would it ever be appropriate to declare praise of a lesser authority in a setting presumably devoted to "another king, one Jesus" (Acts 17:7)?
> 
> Is.48:11, "My glory I will not share with another."
> 
> ...



Amen brother!


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