# PCUSA Church Distributes Free Korans



## ericfromcowtown (Apr 28, 2011)

I wish I was making this up.

PCUSA Church Distributes Free Korans

I know that there are PB members who are still affiliated with a PCUSA congregation. I'd be interested in hearing their reaction. At what point does one jump ship for a moderately-sound Baptist, Lutheran, or Anglican Church, if a sound reformed paedo-baptist church isn't an option?


----------



## he beholds (Apr 28, 2011)

that's insane. i am not afraid of the truth, so i'd be fine reading a quran, but their statement seems to say that the truth may be IN the quran. why do these people even go to church?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 28, 2011)

That is _exactly_ what they are saying Jessica. They really and truly believe truth can be found in the Koran. 

They go to Church because Satan has blinded their minds and their hearts.

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14


----------



## Rufus (Apr 28, 2011)

Its kinda one end of the extreme (burning) to the other (distributing). Distributing the Koran to end hate? All it really pulls the opportunities for is conversion to Islam.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 28, 2011)

This is an example of what happens when you stop believing that the bible is true. Theology becomes pointless and eventually even Christianity itself becomes just a facade. The same thing has happened to the Methodists and most of the mainline protestant denominations. Truly sad.


----------



## Reformed Thomist (Apr 28, 2011)

Maybe this should be taken as a political statement ("Look at us; not all Christians are 'hateful' like that Florida pastor," etc.), rather than a theological one (i.e., "Christianity and Islam are equally good spiritual paths").

As for the proposition that 'truth' may be found in the Qur'an, well, this is true. I don't think any of us would seriously contend that Islam is 100% false. Like all heresies (and like John of Damascus, I do not hesitate to put Islam in the category of Christian heresies), it is an admixture of truth and lies/error -- even if its lies/errors are particularly damning.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 28, 2011)

Perhaps the PCUSA could also give away free bibles since they don't really use them anymore.


----------



## puritanpilgrim (Apr 28, 2011)

> Perhaps the PCUSA could also give away free bibles since they don't really use them anymore.


----------



## Rufus (Apr 28, 2011)

Perhaps the PCUSA is missing somebody very special, somebody who I have found a audio clip of him talking about the Bible, somebody that went to Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. The nice and friendly MISTER ROGERS!: 
[video=youtube;FaYR5lwzomE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaYR5lwzomE&feature=related[/video]


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 28, 2011)

Well I guess I am the only one here that can boast of graduating from the seminary that produced both Mister Rogers and R.C. Sproul.


----------



## Rufus (Apr 28, 2011)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well I guess I am the only one here that can boast of graduating from the seminary that produced both Mister Rogers and R.C. Sproul.


----------



## Osage Bluestem (Apr 28, 2011)

Absolute morons.


----------



## DMcFadden (Apr 28, 2011)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well I guess I am the only one here that can boast of graduating from the seminary that produced both Mister Rogers and R.C. Sproul.


 
Wow, Ben, I've never thought of you as a fellow as nice as _*either *_Mister Rogers or R.C.! 

This is not merely an odd feature of a particular congregation, or even the mainline denomination to which they belong. Increasingly (to my bitter dismay), I hear things about as dialog-centric, accommodating, and "bridge building" as this from my own seminary of origin. As "tolerance" and "finding truth in all traditions" becomes a more important core value than truth, we should expect this.

As the President of my seminary said in defense of the latest Rob Bell book (as quoted by _Time Magazine_):



> "It's pretty hard to sit with Pentecostals and Holiness people and mainline Presbyterians and Anglicans and come away with a closed mind-set that draws firm boundaries about theology,"
> 
> "He's trying to reach a generation that's more comfortable with mystery, with unsolved questions . . ." noting that his own young grandchildren are growing up with Hindu and Muslim friends and classmates. "For me, Hindus and Muslims were the people we sent missionaries off to in places we called 'Arabia.'" Now that diversity is part of the fabric of daily life. It makes a difference. My generation wanted truth — these are folks who want authenticity. The whole judgmentalism and harshness is something they want to avoid."



Two "take aways"
1. Those of you heading for seminary, hear the words of the President of a large "evangelical" seminary. "It's pretty hard to sit with Pentecostals and Holiness people and mainline Presbyterians and Anglicans and come away with a closed mind-set that draws firm boundaries about theology." 

2. "Now that diversity is part of the fabric of daily life. It makes a difference. My generation wanted truth — these are folks who want authenticity. The whole judgmentalism and harshness is something they want to avoid."

I could not say it as plainly or as eloquently, or with as much potency, as the President of one of the largest seminaries in the land.


----------



## Curt (Apr 28, 2011)

I was sitting next to a young Muslim woman on a long plane ride this week. We discussed a number of topics, including the fact that allah and the one true Gd are not the same. She told me that she found it difficult to read the koran. It's a good thing the PCUSA didn't give her one What a waste that would be. :sarcasm:


----------



## jawyman (Apr 28, 2011)

This is just one more step to complete and utter apostasy. I want to be careful with my words, but it seems to me that passing out quran and stating that Truth can be found therein tells me the PCUSA has stopped being a Christian church. I know I am "preaching" to the choir, but just had to chime in.


----------



## Elimelek (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't know the PCUSA and the American Church landscape, so forgive me any remarks that bear witness to ignorance. 

I think it is important to note that it is Wasatch Presbyterian Congregation in Salt Lake City distributing the Qur'ans. It is not the whole of the PCUSA. The question that comes to mind is "How should the Presbyterian Church of the USA deal with the elders of the congregation? What are the church denomination going to do about it?" Shouldn't a synod or church commission investigate the matter or are the PCUSA more congregational?

It is important to note that the minister of the Wasatch Presbyterian Congregation borrowed the idea from a previous associate pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church in Portland, Ore. This is therefore not the first time that it happened within the ranks of the PCUSA.

What I don't understand is the words, "This book was donated by the leaders of Wasatch Presbyterian Church, who are not afraid of truth wherever it can be found." What does it mean? Does it imply that the Qur'an give contains the truth in the same way as the Bible? Does the Qur'an contain any truth? I would've expected the words "book" and "truth" to be spelled with capital letters.


----------



## Michael (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm going to be honest. When I first read the title of this thread I thought it said, "PCUSA Church Distributes Free *Koreans*".

This is why I prefer "Quran".

That is all. Carry on.


----------



## Apologist4Him (Apr 28, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I wish I was making this up.
> 
> PCUSA Church Distributes Free Korans
> 
> I know that there are PB members who are still affiliated with a PCUSA congregation. I'd be interested in hearing their reaction. At what point does one jump ship for a moderately-sound Baptist, Lutheran, or Anglican Church, if a sound reformed paedo-baptist church isn't an option?



I find this thread and everything about it extremely offensive. I could not see the PCUSA Church where I attend ever doing such a thing. It is extremely unfair to judge the entire denomination by the actions of one liberal Church (assuming the article is true), for not all Churches in PCUSA are liberal. Maybe if more conservative Presbyterians, rather than fleeing to Churches where conservatives already are, would be activists in liberal Churches, the liberal Churches would be REFORMED by conservative values and reclaim places in leadership and in doing so reform the entire denomination all for the glory of God. It's so easy to go with the flow of things, and it's easy for people here who live in areas where conservative Reformed denominations are plentiful and mock and scorn the more liberal denominations. Maybe if those before us had stuck it out and stood up for the truth, instead of fleeing (as the Amish do from society) and starting new denominations, there wouldn't be so many denominations, and the liberal Churches wouldn't be so liberal. Maybe we should pray for these Churches and the leadership, pray that God would show them the errors of their ways, and produce in them a Holy fear and burning desire for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe if we acted like God is sovereignly in control of things, we would trust Him to make necessary changes, and just maybe He might even use one of us to help make it happen. When do we stop pointing fingers and start helping our fellow man?


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Apr 28, 2011)

Apologist4Him said:


> I find this thread and everything about it extremely offensive



I think everyone on this board is aware that there are many fine Christians and even fine churches within the PCUSA. Our comments were directed towards the denomination as a whole and the leadership in particular. Let me be the first to apologize for causing any personal offense.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 28, 2011)

As someone who left the PC(USA) less than 4 years ago I can say less than 8% of the churches in the PC(USA) are teaching anything approximating the Apostles Creed, let alone anything deeper and confessional. 

To be frank I don't think a lot of the people here completely understand how systemic the unbelief and confusion is among the Ministers and Ruling Elders in the PC(USA).


----------



## ericfromcowtown (Apr 28, 2011)

Apologist4Him said:


> I find this thread and everything about it extremely offensive. I could not see the PCUSA Church where I attend ever doing such a thing. It is extremely unfair to judge the entire denomination by the actions of one liberal Church (assuming the article is true), for not all Churches in PCUSA are liberal. Maybe if more conservative Presbyterians, rather than fleeing to Churches where conservatives already are, would be activists in liberal Churches, the liberal Churches would be REFORMED by conservative values and reclaim places in leadership and in doing so reform the entire denomination all for the glory of God. It's so easy to go with the flow of things, and it's easy for people here who live in areas where conservative Reformed denominations are plentiful and mock and scorn the more liberal denominations. Maybe if those before us had stuck it out and stood up for the truth, instead of fleeing (as the Amish do from society) and starting new denominations, there wouldn't be so many denominations, and the liberal Churches wouldn't be so liberal. Maybe we should pray for these Churches and the leadership, pray that God would show them the errors of their ways, and produce in them a Holy fear and burning desire for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe if we acted like God is sovereignly in control of things, we would trust Him to make necessary changes, and just maybe He might even use one of us to help make it happen. When do we stop pointing fingers and start helping our fellow man?



My apologies if this thread has caused you offense. That wasn't my intent. The news item appears legitimate. Here's a link to another article detailing this congregation's actions:

Reuters Article

This isn't the first extreme example of PCUSA congregations going off the rails to be posted here on the PB. They come up quite regularly. From your experience in the PCUSA, will this congregation likely be disciplined by its presbytery for their actions?

I agree that we should be praying for our brothers in the PCUSA and similar denominations, and that faithful Christians are still to be found there. At the same time, if a congregation partakes in a publicity stunt like this, I think that it is also entirely acceptable for people to shine a spotlight on their silliness and unfaithfulness.

I mean no disrespect when I ask this next question. If you think it unwise that so many people have left the mainstream liberal denominations, then why does your signature say that you would also become a member of the PCA or OPC if that option were open to you?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 28, 2011)

Disciplined by their Presbytery? 

They will probably be applauded and given a plaque.


----------



## Apologist4Him (Apr 28, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I think everyone on this board is aware that there are many fine Christians and even fine churches within the PCUSA. Our comments were directed towards the denomination as a whole and the leadership in particular. Let me be the first to apologize for causing any personal offense.



Apology accepted and appreciated. I do not disagree with the constructive criticism, and this should be exposed and criticized, but with meekness and humility.

Sola Gratia!


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 28, 2011)

Sweet! Free kindling!


----------



## Apologist4Him (Apr 29, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> My apologies if this thread has caused you offense. That wasn't my intent. The news item appears legitimate. Here's a link to another article detailing this congregation's actions:
> 
> Reuters Article



Apology accepted and appreciated. I hope it is evident I do *not* agree with Christians of any denomination handing out free Korans. I sincerely hope the people responsible are held accountable, though I am unsure how it should be dealt with.



ericfromcowtown said:


> This isn't the first extreme example of PCUSA congregations going off the rails to be posted here on the PB. They come up quite regularly. From your experience in the PCUSA, will this congregation likely be disciplined by its presbytery for their actions?



Personally, I have very little experience in the PCUSA, so I cannot say whether they will be disciplined, or in what manner.



ericfromcowtown said:


> I agree that we should be praying for our brothers in the PCUSA and similar denominations, and that faithful Christians are still to be found there. At the same time, if a congregation partakes in a publicity stunt like this, I think that it is also entirely acceptable for people to shine a spotlight on their silliness and unfaithfulness.



I agree...



ericfromcowtown said:


> My apologies if this thread has caused you offense. That wasn't my intent. The news item appears legitimate. Here's a link to another article detailing this congregation's actions:
> 
> Reuters Article



Apology accepted and appreciated. I hope it is evident I do *not* agree with Christians of any denomination handing out free Korans. I sincerely hope the people responsible are held accountable, though I am unsure how it should be dealt with.



ericfromcowtown said:


> This isn't the first extreme example of PCUSA congregations going off the rails to be posted here on the PB. They come up quite regularly. From your experience in the PCUSA, will this congregation likely be disciplined by its presbytery for their actions?



Personally, I have very little experience in the PCUSA, so I cannot say whether they will be disciplined, or in what manner.



ericfromcowtown said:


> II mean no disrespect when I ask this next question. If you think it unwise that so many people have left the mainstream liberal denominations, then why does your signature say that you would also become a member of the PCA or OPC if that option were open to you?



Because I would, but evidently that is not God's plan for me at this time as I am not in a position to do otherwise. What can I say, His ways are not our ways. I could not attend any Church, which is what I did for years, but I don't think that is God's will either. I could try to start a ministry, but those cards have not been dealt to me.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

[/COLOR]


Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> As someone who left the PC(USA) less than 4 years ago I can say less than 8% of the churches in the PC(USA) are teaching anything approximating the Apostles Creed, let alone anything deeper and confessional.



I am curious as to where you get your figures of 8%. In the PCUSA Church where I am attending, one of the Sunday school classrooms is currently studying Wayne Grudem "Systematic Theology" book. On the front of the bulletin it reads "We are a Confessing Church". The april 24th bulletin has the apostle's creed on it and we recited it publically as a congregation.



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> To be frank I don't think a lot of the people here completely understand how systemic the unbelief and confusion is among the Ministers and Ruling Elders in the PC(USA).



I have not attended the PCUSA Church I am going to with my wife for very long, but in listening to a number of Sermons, from what I understand, this particular Church has been looking for a full time minister for years. From what the minister said, one of the problems is the number of people in seminaries training to be ministers that cannot affirm and I quote from the bulletin...

"Our faith in Jesus alone as Lord and Savior
Our confidence in the infallible authority of Scripture as God's word
Our commitment to God's timeless standards of holiness including fidelity in marriage and chastity in singleness."

It is a sad sad state of seminaries if up and coming ministers cannot even affirm those three basics...


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 29, 2011)

Apologist4Him said:


> It is a sad sad state of seminaries if up and coming ministers cannot even affirm those three basics...



That's because most orthodox seminarians would not think to pastor a PCUSA church since the denomination (generally, not each and every local congregation) is so liberal and apostate. Personally, I have not come across a single PCUSA church that would possibly want someone who teaches the Bible as the infallible, inerrant word of God. Such PCUSA churches exist, but I've just never seen one myself.


----------



## Andres (Apr 29, 2011)

You're going to take the time and write all of this...



Apologist4Him said:


> I find this thread and everything about it extremely offensive. I could not see the PCUSA Church where I attend ever doing such a thing. It is extremely unfair to judge the entire denomination by the actions of one liberal Church (assuming the article is true), for not all Churches in PCUSA are liberal. Maybe if more conservative Presbyterians, rather than fleeing to Churches where conservatives already are, would be activists in liberal Churches, the liberal Churches would be REFORMED by conservative values and reclaim places in leadership and in doing so reform the entire denomination all for the glory of God. It's so easy to go with the flow of things, and it's easy for people here who live in areas where conservative Reformed denominations are plentiful and mock and scorn the more liberal denominations. Maybe if those before us had stuck it out and stood up for the truth, instead of fleeing (as the Amish do from society) and starting new denominations, there wouldn't be so many denominations, and the liberal Churches wouldn't be so liberal. Maybe we should pray for these Churches and the leadership, pray that God would show them the errors of their ways, and produce in them a Holy fear and burning desire for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe if we acted like God is sovereignly in control of things, we would trust Him to make necessary changes, and just maybe He might even use one of us to help make it happen. When do we stop pointing fingers and start helping our fellow man?



But then you have this below in your signature line... Come on man. 



Apologist4Him said:


> I would be a member of OPC or PCA congregation if it were possible in the area I live.


----------



## BJClark (Apr 29, 2011)

The sad thing to me is, carrying the name "Christian" they are 'part of the body' of Christ, an arm or leg that has become gangrene or cancerous that really needs to be cut off..so that it no longer continues to spread..


----------



## Scottish Lass (Apr 29, 2011)

Apologist4Him said:


> On the front of the bulletin it reads "We are a Confessing Church".




Then you've just confirmed Ben's numbers. Confessing Churches are a tiny fraction of a minority in the PC(USA). We know; we were married in one. The pastor would have loved to jump ship, but was but a few years from his retirement, pension, etc. He all but commanded us to change denominations and encouraged us to check out the ARP. 
For more information on Confessing Churches, see The Layman Online


----------



## Marrow Man (Apr 29, 2011)

Not to derail the thread, Andrew, but you are less than an hour from Springfield, MO. There is a new ARP church there: Gospel of Grace Church - Reformed Church - Springfield, MO


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 29, 2011)

As one who seeks for an OPC Church I would imagine you would understand what was happening in the 1920' and 30's concerning the Prebyterian Church and J. Gresham Machen. Liberalism is not Christianity. And Liberalism is all that is being spewed out from the PCUSA.


----------



## Scottish Lass (Apr 29, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> And Liberalism is all that is being spewed out from the PCUSA.




Yep, though the average person in the pew often doesn't know it or agree with it.


----------



## Fly Caster (Apr 29, 2011)

Apologist4Him said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I was making this up.
> ...



The Uber-Liberal PCUSA pastor just down the road is advertising his church's May 1 services as "Pluralism Sunday" with a festival for Bel in the evening. He not only openly and agressively promotes all sorts of perversion in the press and on his blog, but he does it with language that is too vile for me to post a link to.

I have friends who are fine Christians themselves-- who go to PCUSA churches that are not as bad as this one-- yet who's pastors and elders extend the right hand of fellowship to a blasphemer. Some of us meet weekly to study the Bible together and I count them brothers-- but it grieves me that they have fellowship with workers of darkness.

A Reform-minded Christian can find many things in my own denomination (PCA) to keep him quite occupied. We are far from perfect. There comes a point, though, that further effort amounts to casting pearls before swine, and the Scriptural call is, at that point, to seperate. I praise God that you are in a church that remains faithful. But I feel the same concern as I feel for my friends here and pray that God will place you and your church in a denomination that is more faithful to scripture.


----------



## DMcFadden (Apr 29, 2011)

Pluralism Sunday, huh? Tim, yeah, but when your church mission statement says the following, what can you expect?



> With joyful hearts and open minds, we welcome all persons as diverse, unique, and
> individual expressions of the image of God as we:
> • Afﬁrm the unconditional love of God for all people as expressed in the life of Jesus
> Christ.
> ...


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 29, 2011)

> And I probably should clear up why I see some of the things the way I do; I am a man who delves deeply into the *field of psychology*, (Go Boilers) and *I cannot help but see this as a fear *based issue. We need not fear. We should be courageous, even fearless, in how we live as Christians. We should be more future tense oriented and be *thinking ecumenically*. I see this as *divisive* and possibly *hurtful*. This is by all means a *liberty issue*. *If we cannot see that it is, we tend to judge those who are nothing more than creative. Just like God*.



This was a response to something I was discussing with a friend concerning one of the laws of God. To be more specific it was about the second commandment. This is where the slope starts to go downhill. Psychology is authoritative. Those of us who believe the law of God are fearful and we shouldn't fear God. (He is loving and all accepting) Fear is bad. Because we fear we become divisive and hurtful. After all it is all about liberty now. Don't you know we have liberty! And we are judgmental when others are actually being like God in their creativity. This is pure liberalism and not Christianity. Real Christianity is where fear is the beginning of wisdom. Honoring and obeying God's law is freedom! Liberalism is an abomination to God's word and His creation.


----------

