# Why did God create his own enemy?



## MSH (Feb 27, 2017)

Why did God create his own enemy [Satan] ? 

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jw (Feb 27, 2017)

For His own glory.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## MSH (Feb 27, 2017)

Joshua said:


> For His own glory.



I agree. Would you care to go into more detail to support your answer? 

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jw (Feb 27, 2017)

Eph. 1

Blessed _be_ the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.​
I should think prying any further would be speculative religion, in which creatures are not free to imbibe. Perhaps you will find the following helpful.

Westminster Larger Catechism:

*Q. *13. What hath God especially decreed concerning angels and men?
*A. *God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of his mere love, for the praise of his glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, hath elected some angels to glory; and in Christ hath chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof: and also according to his sovereign power, and the unsearchable counsel of his own will, (whereby he extendeth or withholdeth favor as he pleaseth), hath passed by, and fore-ordained the rest to dishonor and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of his justice.

1 Tim. 5:21; Eph. 1:4-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Rom. 9:17-18, 21-22; Matt. 11:25-26; 2 Tim. 2:20; Jude 1:4; 1 Pet. 2:8.

*Q. *14. How doth God execute his decrees?
*A. *God executeth his decrees in the works of creation and providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will.

Eph. 1:11.

*Q. *16. How did God create angels?
*A. *God created all the angels spirits, immortal, holy, excelling in knowledge, mighty in power, to execute his commandments, and to praise his name, yet subject to change.

Col. 1:16; Ps. 104:4; Matt. 22:30; Matt. 25:31; 2 Sam. 14:17; Matt. 24:36; 2 Thess. 1:7; Ps. 103:20-21; 2 Pet. 2:4.

*Q. *18. What are God’s works of providence?
*A. *God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving, and governing all his creatures; ordering them, and all their actions, to his own glory.

Ps. 145:17; Ps. 104:24; Isa. 28:29; Heb. 1:3; Ps. 103:19; Matt. 10:29-31; Gen. 45:7; Rom. 11:36; Isa. 63:14.

*Q. *19. What is God’s providence toward the angels?
*A. *God by his providence permitted some of the angels, willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation, limiting and ordering that, and all their sins, to his own glory; and established the rest in holiness and happiness; employing them all, at his pleasure, in the administrations of his power, mercy, and justice.

Jude 1:6; 2 Pet. 2:4; Heb. 2:16; John 8:44; Job 1:12; Matt. 8:31; 1 Tim. 5:21; Mark 8:38; Heb. 12:22; Ps. 104:4; 2 Kings 19:35; Heb. 1:14.​

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MW (Feb 27, 2017)

MSH said:


> Why did God create his own enemy [Satan] ?



God created all things good. Evil has arisen through the free will of the creature. God has foreordained it and overrules it for His own glorious purpose, but He did not create anything in a state of enmity to Himself.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MSH (Feb 27, 2017)

MW said:


> God created all things good. Evil has arisen through the free will of the creature. God has foreordained it and overrules it for His own glorious purpose, but He did not create anything in a state of enmity to Himself.



Great answer! Why would God foreordain the creation of His enemy? Since God is the limit of all knowledge and nothing acts on Him, He did create Satan with the full knowledge that He would rebel. It seems that He created him for this very purpose, but I understand that God did not put the evil in his heart, but it does seem that since everything that exists first exists in the mind of God that Satan could not have done otherwise. 

Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stope (Feb 27, 2017)

MW said:


> Evil has arisen through the free will of the creature


Can we say that God didn't directly cause sin, however, it only came about because of His (God's) will?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Feb 27, 2017)

If God does not foreordain an enemy, then there's no foe for him to defeat, no opportunity to have the glory of praise for his deliverance of the helpless.

God didn't need either of those for himself, to satisfy an egoist desire. Those things are good for us who are being saved, 1Cor.1:18.

And "us" wouldn't exist in an alternative reality. As contingent creatures, we exist in the one universe God made. Do you like being? This specific universe was necessary for you.

Possibly, someone like you could be in an alternative universe, one without a "Satan" or any evil. But it is not credible to say you, yourself would exist; because the history of humanity that has brought you (and others now living) to be is tied-in to the fabric of this reality in which Satan has a part.

So, only if an individual is content to deny himself, is he justified (in any sense) in questioning the wisdom of God in foreordaining Satan and all other evil permitted in this world. The one complaining must view himself as an accident, and not one deliberately willed to be of God. There is no such thing as an "all other things being equal" universe.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## MW (Feb 27, 2017)

MSH said:


> but it does seem that since everything that exists first exists in the mind of God that Satan could not have done otherwise.



Before we go any further we must understand what Satan was capable of. The essence of free agency is the power to choose for oneself. Foreordination did not destroy that power of agency. God's foreordination determines the whole process -- "willing" and "working." Providentially, with respect to evil, it does nothing to intrinsically to determine the will. Only in grace is the will actively determined, and this is to do good.

If we understand that Satan was entirely responsible for his own actions we can see that God's foreordination had respect unto this responsibility. It did not in any way create the enmity. It simply ordained it with a purpose of overruling it for His own glorious purpose.

As for the purpose itself, we see many advantages which have flowed as a result of God intervening to display His super-abounding grace over sin. Perhaps foremost among these advantages is the glorious manifestation of the Saviour, who took our nature and destroyed the power of the devil.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MW (Feb 27, 2017)

Stope said:


> Can we say that God didn't directly cause sin, however, it only came about because of His (God's) will?



"Cause" and "because" will cancel each other out if they are not explained.

God is directly involved in all actions, and without Him there would be no action per se. In Him we live and move and have our being. But the sinfulness of the action is entirely owing to the creature who does it. We need to make room for "permission," whilst affirming the thing permitted is an act of divine will. Consider what Calvin wrote, reflecting Augustine: "in a wonderful and ineffable manner nothing is done without God’s will, not even that which is against his will. For it would not be done if he did not permit it; yet he does not unwillingly permit it, but willingly; nor would he, being good, allow evil to be done, unless being also almighty he could make good even out of evil.” Institutes, 1.18.3.

Reactions: Like 1 | Edifying 1


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Feb 27, 2017)

MW said:


> The essence of free agency is the power to choose for oneself. Foreordination did not destroy that power of agency. God's foreordination determines the whole process -- "willing" and "working." Providentially, with respect to evil, it does nothing to intrinsically to determine the will.



Love it! Haven't read it described so concisely.

We often think of God's foreordination and overruling of evil as if He's causally responsible for the agency of the creature who chooses for himself. One might wonder why God would decree creatures who chose for themselves instead of for Him but it cannot be accurately said that the Scriptures (or the Reformed confessions) see God as forcing creatures to choose to rebel.



> I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]





MW said:


> Only in grace is the will actively determined, and this is to do good.


I wonder, is this behind the two different words used in the same chapter:


> III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are *predestinated unto everlasting life*; and others *foreordained to everlasting death*.[7]



In other words, did the authors have in mind this important distinction that you make? God need not force a creature to continue to rebel and His predestinating in Scripture is in reference to those Whom He loved.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MW (Feb 27, 2017)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I wonder, is this behind the two different words used in the same chapter:
> 
> In other words, did the authors have in mind this important distinction that you make? God need not force a creature to continue to rebel and His predestinating in Scripture is in reference to those Whom He loved.



Rich, that is the way I understand it, especially in comparison with the Irish articles. There is a precision of thought and a sensitivity to the different ways in which holy Scripture speaks on the subject. I especially appreciate the comments of William Hetherington in this regard, in his Introductory Essay to Robert Shaw's Exposition of the Confession, pp. xviii-xix.

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Don1964 (Feb 28, 2017)

Interesting discussion and I have a question please...

I believe that sinners need to be brought to justice before God, and that God created both the righteous and wicked for His own glory, but wouldn't it have been a better God who could have glorified Himself to the same extent without having eternal suffering as being a part of the process of doing such?

(I know that "a better God" than the true God, the God of the Holy bible, is an impossibility, but how would you respond to such a question?)

BTW, here's a video from AOmin that addresses "the problem of evil" in just one hour...


----------



## Jack K (Feb 28, 2017)

When teaching kids, I get this question more often than one might expect. "Why did God create the devil?" is an offshoot of the "why does God allow/ordain evil?" question, so it's a good one for which to have a ready answer. The catechism, "right" answer is, of course, that God created all things (even those that turned evil) for his glory. But I find that the kids I teach are never satisfied with this answer unless I explain more about God's glory.

The glory of God is a tough concept. I try to explain that acting for and displaying his glory isn't about God showing off in the selfish way it would be for us if _we_ were living for our glory alone. In the Bible, God's glory is often connected to his love for his people and the way he saves them. It is especially connected to the suffering of Jesus and the acclaim he earns for loving us that way, and the rescue from evil he achieves for us. When we see that the glory of Christ especially includes sacrificing, costly, evil-crushing love, we can start to understand why creating a being who would turn evil might serve the cause of God's glory.

That's the approach I generally take. Like I say, though, I find the concept a challenging one, and there is so much more to say about glory that it's hard to stay focused on the core question about the devil and evil. So I'm very open to better ways to frame the discussion. Fire away!


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Feb 28, 2017)

Think about this: the infinite (never paid-off) debt of sin corresponds to the infinite nature of God which has been offended. We have incurred an infinite debt precisely because the offended God is infinite, and not because our acts (or our payments) have intrinsic infinite quality.

So, if hell has any limit, God's justice also finds an end. It is satisfied somewhere--somewhere besides in the infinite worth of the Savior. And if that could be, then _purgatory _would be fine. And if purgatory would be fine, then Jesus' incarnation and his death and resurrection ultimately aren't absolutely _required. _It might take a horrendously long time to make the payment, but theoretically it would be possible to exhaust the penalty for sin.

Hell is forever, because "His mercy endureth forever." And those who will not have the latter, must have the former for just as long.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


----------



## Don1964 (Feb 28, 2017)

Whoa! Copy and paste Bruce's response above and e-mail it to myself to reflect upon later... Thanks Rev. Bruce!

(His response may be old news for some but I like the way he phrased it and I believe I have something to ruminate upon... thanks again, Bruce)...


----------



## MW (Feb 28, 2017)

The question about a "better" reality without suffering presupposes man's chief end is pleasure. In the hedonist school of life everything is quantified and measured by human happiness. The idea that men would not glorify God and yet live happily ever after is the narrative of hedonist fantasy. It is from this narrative that men come to think of the possibility of a "better" world without human suffering. They wish it were so. But of course it is not reality.

The Lord of heaven and earth has given us His own narrative, and revealed Himself as the measure of all things. There can be no "better" reality where God is rejected and ignored and men live happily ever after. The Lord is our life and the length of our days; therefore we are to love and to cleave to Him as to life itself. To reject God is to choose death.

Reactions: Edifying 2 | Amen 1


----------



## Don1964 (Feb 28, 2017)

MW, great comments! The expression of God's justice further glorifies Himself and allows the Church (and elect angels) a more complete understanding of the greatness of God and of His righteousness and mercy. How great God is! Yet just how great is yet to be understood and seen!


----------



## MSH (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks for all the great replies! I always appreciate be pointed back to the WCF for a deeper look; like Scripture it can't be read enough! I also liked some of the more philosophical approaches to the subject as I've found these at least to be some of the best ways to begin a serious conversation with my atheist and agnostic friends. 

Usually in a nut shell the conversation always rolls back around that if God is all powerful and good He would have never created even the means for evil to even exist at all. I simply remind them that that statement along with all the previous statements that led up to that were not arguments for the non existence of God, but rather statements as to them not liking the God the Bible claims to exist. This is usually where we get stuck or simply start all over only to end back up at the same place only using different examples and the like. 

Thanks again for all the great input and more is definitely welcome!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MSH (Mar 6, 2017)

Another way that the question is often phrased to me and I guess it is a more fundamental question is; " Does anything exist that God didn't intend to exist?" 

It would seem to me that the same answers given in the above posts would apply. Is there anything different one should offer to this question? 

For example they often bring up what they've read concerning Adam and Eve in the Garden and ask if God didn't intend for them to fall then why did it happen if He is sovereign? 

To me it is really the same argument as the OP question but am I missing something?

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MW (Mar 6, 2017)

It is important to keep in mind the distinction between the decree of God and the execution of His decree. He unconditionally decreed all things which shall come to pass, but the execution of the decree includes decreed conditions by which things will come to pass. That being the case we should not simply speak of what God intends when we refer to the execution of His decree. We must include the conditions involved in the execution.

There is a condition of human agency by which sin came into the world. Human nature fully and freely chooses its own course, so that the fall into sin was the genuine choice of the person. We must not speak of the fall simply as if God intended it and therefore it happened. We are obliged to take into account the condition of free agency and full accountability by which this came to pass.

Reactions: Like 2 | Edifying 1


----------

