# Tai Chi?



## Hamalas (Dec 20, 2011)

For all you martial arts gurus out there. I've wanted to study some sort of martial art for as long as I can remember. I'm only about 130 pounds, so I'm more oriented towards the soft or hard/soft forms (Judo, Hapkido, etc...) but I have very little money to spend on classes (I am a college student after all!) However, I do have a membership to my local YMCA and they offer a few Martial Arts related classes. Here are two that have caught my eye:

*Tai Chi for Health* - This unique martial art, Yang Style short form, is for all ages and levels. This class promotes strength, coordination, posture, concentration, and general level of energy. 

AND

*Y-Box* - A multi-level impact class with a total-body workout! Includes stretching, punching, elbow strikes, kicking, defensive & footwork drills.

(Those descriptions are from their handout.)

So my question is this: while either of these classes (and particularly the Tai Chi class) have any real martial art benefits? I'm assuming that I couldn't really defend myself after taking a Tai Chi class at the Y, but would it at least be helpful or not?


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Dec 20, 2011)

I believe that this would depend on the instructor, more than anything. My understanding is that Tai Chi does have self-defense applications, if TAUGHT with that end in mind. It did begin as a martial art prior to health clubs taking it over. Does your college have a martial arts club? Mine had essentially "free" Ishynryu classes. You might check into that angle.


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## ericfromcowtown (Dec 20, 2011)

Does tai-chi have a spiritual dimension, like yoga?


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## Hamalas (Dec 20, 2011)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I believe that this would depend on the instructor, more than anything. My understanding is that Tai Chi does have self-defense applications, if TAUGHT with that end in mind. It did begin as a martial art prior to health clubs taking it over. Does your college have a martial arts club? Mine had essentially "free" Ishynryu classes. You might check into that angle.



That's a great idea, but I take correspondence courses so I don't think that would work.  



ericfromcowtown said:


> Does tai-chi have a spiritual dimension, like yoga?



I'm not sure, I know some teachers do, but I was hoping that the Y wouldn't. Does anyone know?


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## Tim (Dec 20, 2011)

If your goal is self-defense, I would look into the American martial art, such as developed by this man:

Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, I still think there is much to be gained by traditional oriental martial arts because of the awareness and discipline that they develop.


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## Hamalas (Dec 20, 2011)

Tim said:


> If your goal is self-defense, I would look into the American martial art, such as developed by this man:
> 
> Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> However, I still think there is much to be gained by traditional oriental martial arts because of the awareness and discipline that they develop.



Thanks Tim, I'm from Kansas so I'm already well versed in that style.  That is always my primary mode of self-defense, but I'd like to have some exposure to hand-to-hand combat to complement it.


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## asc (Dec 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> So my question is this: while either of these classes (and particularly the Tai Chi class) have any real martial art benefits? I'm assuming that I couldn't really defend myself after taking a Tai Chi class at the Y, but would it at least be helpful or not?



Sounds like you probably just need to give them a try and find out what they're like. Try talking to the instructor. In my limited experience with Tai Chi, it wouldn't be any more helpful for self defense than any other kind of exercise.


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## Scott1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Knowing what I know now, and having worked up in Kenpo Karate in the past,

There is too much entanglement of false religion in this, its atmosphere and ethics.

Mind control (beyond mere discipline), religious symbolism, lust for violence, ego and excess are all tied up in this. It is too close to a false religion mindset and ought be avoided.

If you have need for self defense take something non-systematic like a basic self defense and personal safety class.

If you desire exercise or physical development, there are lots of alternatives- gymnastics being one.


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## baron (Dec 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Tai Chi for Health - This unique martial art, Yang Style short form, is for all ages and levels. This class promotes strength, coordination, posture, concentration, and general level of energy.



Since the handout tells you what the course covers that is it. It is for health only. If you have a martial arts background you can figure out how to use it for self defense. My wife attended a school like mentioned above and it was good for health only.

Tai Chi is a very surprising art if taken as a martial art. You can gain self defense and health benefits at the same time. You can vary times on the forms from a matter of minutes to a hour or more. I remember when I had a confertation with a 365 lb. college football player. He swung so hard to hit me, I used a soft Tai Chi block that left him in tears. There was no more contact needed and I walked away. As mentioned above a lot depends on your teacher. The teacher is key, there are so many unqualified instructors out there.


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## seajayrice (Dec 20, 2011)

Tai Chi for health, maybe. Tai Chi for self defense, yeah, if you want to defend yourself against a chimichanga.


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## Tim (Dec 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > If your goal is self-defense, I would look into the American martial art, such as developed by this man:
> ...



Great to hear, brother. It sounds like you are going for a comprehensive approach, with which I very much agree, because it allows one tools that allow one to respond to the full range of force levels. If one only knows gun, they would seem to be deficient against attacks that are less than deadly.

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------




Scott1 said:


> Knowing what I know now, and having worked up in Kenpo Karate in the past,
> 
> There is too much entanglement of false religion in this, its atmosphere and ethics.
> 
> Mind control (beyond mere discipline), religious symbolism, lust for violence, ego and excess are all tied up in this. It is too close to a false religion mindset and ought be avoided.



I would suspect that the Russian and Israeli military methods would be "completely secular"...


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Dec 20, 2011)

There are a lot of bogus Krav Magna intructors out there. If I could find one that was legit, I would probably triple up the Celebrex and start working out again. No Sombo schools in my part of the world. We are pretty light on Russian expats.


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## Mathetes (Dec 20, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> Tai Chi for health, maybe. Tai Chi for self defense, yeah, if you want to defend yourself against a chimichanga.



This is a myth. Tai Chi is actually a very powerful martial art for self defence, but it's unfortunately associated with old folks moving slowly in a park somewhere. However, when you speed it up, it's very effective. Here's one example:

[video=youtube;V5PYoIqay84]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5PYoIqay84&feature=related[/video]


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## earl40 (Dec 20, 2011)

If you eat enough Tai food you could take up SUMO.


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## Mathetes (Dec 20, 2011)

Or you could have Chai Tea after your Tai Chi


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## TimV (Dec 20, 2011)

MMA, dude. Hey, I like you on account of you scholarship and red hair. But there's a lot of garbage out there. Join the wrestling team, if your school has one. Even though you get beat up. Join the wrestling team. That's how my sons started. Dad taught them basic wrestling. Nothing exotic. Then they moved on to MMA. Good stuff!!!!! Wrestling got me a free education, and I wish they had MMA back in the day when your Uncle Tim was your age. But still, there's an open offer in my family. The first kid who can take me down 2 times out of three gets 1000 buck cash, and your 51 year old Uncle Tim still has the cash in the bank, even though his sons are not exactly wimps 

They all dream about whooping me, but, well, they can't


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## JM (Dec 20, 2011)

Boxing, judo and wrestling are proven arts that run as non profs and keep gym fees low. If you want something with less contact you'll lose in the experience sparring and grappling can teach you. There are many McDojo's out there that claim to run as MMA clubs as well, or have ads for BJJ classes, just sayin'.

If you want some weapons training try arnis, the movements translate well to a walking cane...

If you want to take a martial art for self defense and fitness, that doesn't have a lot of contact but does build mental toughness through training, try a traditional Okinawan dojo that teaches Uechi, Goju or Shorin ryu. 

The Japanese styles like Shotokan and Kyokushin are excellent for hard sparring and for building endurance, but Shotokan's low stances kill the knees and Kyokushin is full contact bare knuckle...I had broken ribs on both sides of my body, broke my hand, multiple ankle injuries and a concussion from practicing these styles...all by the time I was 15! 20 years latter I really feel it.

OSU!


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## TimV (Dec 21, 2011)

> Boxing, judo and wrestling are proven arts that run as non profs and keep gym fees low. If you want something with less contact you'll lose in the experience sparring and grappling can teach you.



Exactly. One of my workers has his whole room full of trophies for one of those Asian self defence forms that have minimal contact. National champion several times, and he and my third son (on the left) who only had wrestling put on the gloves once. It was fun since it was video taped  , a five second knock out. Oldest son KOed a guy from the Marine fight team and fourth went to a big tourny a few months ago and took first in all three divisions. Anything other than a form that lets you go all out is for ladies' fitness.


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## FCC (Dec 21, 2011)

I teach police officers self defense tactics that are based on Krav Maga. The techniques are extremely effective, if they are practiced! Many of the self defense techniques depend heavily on the practiioner following through with the techinques and making them part of muscle memory. This requires a repitition of thousands of times of the moves involved so they become almost a reflex move of sorts. Real Krav Maga is good for almost anyone, so it should fit you very well. I would go with the second listing on the flyer it seems to stay away from the spiritual side of tai chi.

As an aside, we were holding our annual law enforcement defensive tactics course at our local YMCA last year. We were using the soccer area because we had between 8-10 officers in the classes, which required alot of room to move. As we worked we noticed an older gentlemen watching us very intently, we learned after speaking with him that he teaches tai chi at the Y and he was interested in what we were teaching our officers. He offered to stop by at lunch and introduce myself and the other instructor to some basic tai chi. It seemed very effective and the moves were natural leads off the moves we were already teaching the officers. Then later in the week as I was jogging on the indoor track during lunch I watched him giving some instruction to a woman. She was having some difficulties in her life and he was explaining to her that tai chi would "center her being and bring her spiritual awareness." I took some umbrage with that and he went on to show her some of the meditation moves that he claimed produced "spiritual unity." Imagine my surprise to see that they were merely slowed down techniques that he had shown us a couple of days prior! Be careful, the spiritual side can be mixed in with extreme ease in martial arts. 

Again I would stick with the second selection and then stick with the practice!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Dec 21, 2011)

I agree with Tim. You need live sparring. McDojo's that just do LARPing ("live action role playing") with minimal contact can give a huge sense of false confidence.


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## J. Dean (Dec 21, 2011)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I believe that this would depend on the instructor, more than anything. My understanding is that Tai Chi does have self-defense applications, if TAUGHT with that end in mind. It did begin as a martial art prior to health clubs taking it over. Does your college have a martial arts club? Mine had essentially "free" Ishynryu classes. You might check into that angle.



Agreed. It does depend on the instructor. I studied with a man who was VERY big on making martial arts street-practical. He did a good job of explaining the applications in different situations, and unfortunately you don't get that in every martial art class.

Judo and Hapkido are both good. If you can find Krav Maga or Wing Chun, they're quite good as well. If you're looking for something more intricate, I recommend aikido.


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## JM (Dec 28, 2011)

Wing Chun is pretty good. My sons Aikido sensei is a good friend of mine and has a background in WC.


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## nicnap (Dec 28, 2011)

I took isshinryu and aikido -- both can be effective, IF as has been said, you practice and practice some more. Found both useful in my time as a prison guard; but what came in most handy was my country roughhouse upbringing. Lots of grappling and endurance are hard to beat. Plus it always helps if you have learned how to take a punch without getting too stunned. The truth is, most instructors are going to teach you in such a way that it seems like you'll always be the one in control; that's not the case. You will get hit, and if the guy has a knife, you will most likely take a cut or two -- you need to learn how to get past the stun of it. That's why as Tim and others have said, go for something that allows for full sparring.


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## gordo (Dec 28, 2011)

any form of grappling is great for self defence and keeping in shape. and when sparring (rolling) it can be very intense or low impact, whatever you prefer. you may want to give BJJ a try. or just find an MMA gym that has no-gi grappling classes.

as mentioned above, wrestling is great. it can be very high impact though so keep that in mind. but what a workout.


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## JM (Jan 10, 2012)

I started learning the first form in Wing Chun called Sil Lim Tao. Feels weird compared to boxing and karate. The other day I was cleaning my basement and found my tekko (brass knuckles). We perform kata with them. 
View attachment 2583


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## JohnGill (Jan 11, 2012)

Hamalas said:


> For all you martial arts gurus out there. I've wanted to study some sort of martial art for as long as I can remember. I'm only about 130 pounds, so I'm more oriented towards the soft or hard/soft forms (Judo, Hapkido, etc...) but I have very little money to spend on classes (I am a college student after all!) However, I do have a membership to my local YMCA and they offer a few Martial Arts related classes. Here are two that have caught my eye:
> 
> *Tai Chi for Health* - This unique martial art, Yang Style short form, is for all ages and levels. This class promotes strength, coordination, posture, concentration, and general level of energy.
> 
> ...



I'd recommend a European Martial Art. For years I've practiced Uechi Ryu. It's an Okinawan style based on a Chinese style. But I now prefer Western European Martial Arts. Wrestling forms the basis of it, after which you'll generally progress to dagger (think knife) fighting, then sword, sword & buckler, and then armored combat.

To give you an idea of what European Martial Arts are like I'd recommend the following:

AEMMA - Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts - their training is primarily derived from the Italian school. They also list the basic equipment needed for each level. And if money is tight, you can always sew your own gambeson. I've found some good patterns.

Association for Renaissance Martial Arts - good intro to the art

Some books and DVDs:

Amazon.com: Leibringen: An Introduction to Medieval Wrestling: Damien Stranski Jirka Burkow: Movies & TV - Leibringen video

Amazon.com: Academy of the Sword (9781891448409): Gerard Thibault, John Michael Greer: Books - Academy of the Sword (Spanish Rapier Fencing)

a video instructing you in La Verdadera Destreza (Spanish Fencing) - La Verdadera Destreza: The True Art and Science of Spanish Swordsmanship

Amazon.com: English Swordsmanship: The True Fight of George Silver (9781891448270): Stephen Hand: Books - English Swordsmanship - George Silver

Amazon.com: Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Arts Of Combat: Sword and Buckler Fighting, Wrestling, and Fighting in Armor (9781581604993): David Lindholm, Peter Svard, John Clements: Books - Knightly Arts of Combat

Amazon.com: Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship: Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer (9781891448072): Christian Henry Tobler: Books - German Medieval Swordsmanship

Amazon.com: Codex Wallerstein: A Medieval Fighting Book from the Fifteenth Century on the Longsword, Falchion, Dagger, and Wrestling (9781581605853): Grzegorz Zabinski, Bartlomiej Walczak: Books - Codex Wallerstein

(Personally I prefer the German school. But I am half-German. Also it is more "brutal" in the wrestling.)

http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Bl...hys-Davies/dp/B001V7UTP2/ref=pd_rhf_se_shvl15 - Reclaiming the Blade DVD. Refutes many of the myths regarding European Martial Arts.

Amazon.com: English Martial Arts (9781898281627): Terry Brown: Books - English Martial Arts. Covers the quarterstaff and bill along with the basics of bare fist fighting, dagger, and sword.

A video showing you some basics of Codex Wallerstein. (Wrestling and Sword Fighting.)

[video=youtube;lvkPLvoH1vI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvkPLvoH1vI[/video]

[video=youtube;UHEs2m0IXAk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHEs2m0IXAk&amp;feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;uxRdWR0Fiks]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxRdWR0Fiks&amp;feature=related[/video]

Dagger fighting:

[video=youtube;PgXFLacKxR0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgXFLacKxR0&amp;feature=related[/video]

The first two websites have other videos. If you want to know some ideas on where to start PM me. You can get a Cold Steel practice sword for about $25 @ amazon.com. And many of the sources are free pdfs. Your weight won't be an issue. If you think it would be, then I'd start with the Spanish Rapier school. I should also point out that many of the armed techniques (dagger, sword, sword & buckler) can easily be converted to unarmed techniques. The reason for this is the foundation laid by the wrestling techniques. They must be mastered prior to moving on to dagger and sword techniques. While the Spanish school focuses primarily on the rapier, the confidence it gives in knowing you can easily defeat an enemy can be applied to the wrestling techniques from the German/Italian/English schools. If you buy the Verdadera Destreza videos you'll understand what I mean. 

And of course with the European styles you avoid any lingering mysticism in the oriental styles. Especially with a style such as Tai Chi. Go Yang style!

Albrecht Durer (15th & 16th century artist) drew some pictures for European Martial Arts.

View attachment 2590


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## JM (Jan 11, 2012)

Chris, is it easy to find a WMA gym? It's been my experience they are more like reenactment clubs then martial arts clubs.


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## Fogetaboutit (Jan 11, 2012)

I would have to agree with those who mentioned the sparring factor, if you learn martial arts and never practice by sparring your training will be almost useless. I would also recommend Boxing, Judo and Ju Jitsu (as long as there is no spiritual aspect to it). These are a good mix for a well rounded self defense (stand-up, take down, ground). Wrestling could also be good, not as good for ground defense as Ju Jitsu in my opinion, but has some nice take downs/throws to compensate.

I would stay away from anything that involves meditation. Also most of the time when eastern MAs mention "energy" what they really mean is spirituallism.


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## JM (Jan 11, 2012)

Just a quick word about grappling arts...it's not a good idea to go to the ground in the street. Rolling for a knee bar on concrete hurts. Pulling guard in gravel so you can sub a guy with a triangle can be painful. Jumping for a flying armbar can lead to a broken neck when done on grass.


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## Fogetaboutit (Jan 11, 2012)

JM said:


> Just a quick word about grappling arts...it's not a good idea to go to the ground in the street. Rolling for a knee bar on concrete hurts. Pulling guard in gravel so you can sub a guy with a triangle can be painful. Jumping for a flying armbar can lead to a broken neck when done on grass.



I agree to an extent, but they are usefull if you find yourself on your back or if the other guy has better stand-up skills and you are getting a beating.


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## JM (Jan 11, 2012)

I threw a guy in a street fight when I was 19 and proceeded to grapple with him. He was bigger so I rolled to my guard and got an arm for an armbar. I used my head to bridge off the concrete and scrapped my forehead from one side to the other and just as I was about to finish the technique his friend booted me in my eye socket. It was a mess. I still dislocated his shoulder so it wasn't a complete loss. We were badly out numbered and shouldn't have gone to the ground. 

On the other hand...I threw a guy who tried to hit me with a hockey stick and knocked him out cold.

[both fights were self defense situations, we lived in a bad area so fighting was something we just did...all the time]


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## JohnGill (Jan 11, 2012)

JM said:


> Chris, is it easy to find a WMA gym? It's been my experience they are more like reenactment clubs then martial arts clubs.



It really depends on the club. True WMA clubs are not reenactment clubs. Regrettably many "historic" fencing clubs tend to be more reenactment than martial arts. Though some WMA clubs look like "reenactment clubs" because they dress traditionally. AEMMA, ARMA, or MEMA style clubs are martial art clubs. Some of the schools go for armored combat with blunted swords. People still get wounded though. One in Massachusetts or Maine teaches jousting. I think AEMMA & ARMA have links to various clubs throughout the world. Many of them style themselves after the historic Schools of Defense with tourneys that would be very realistic even by Renaissance standards. However, they are mainly on the west and east coast and in Europe. The benefit of the books from the time period is that they give you all the basic exercises. You can learn the art from them with a sparring partner if nothing else is available. I would recommend following AEMMA's training program and equipment list if you go this route. And if possible then travel to a School for a few lessons. But expect bruises and bloody noses at the school and always wear protection. Ringschule.org has some videos out demonstrating German Medieval Wrestling.

Here's a good one:

[video=youtube;9Ge6l_bMLcs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ge6l_bMLcs&amp;feature=related[/video]

Some of the other links at youtube will take you to the freestyle fights.

The German Longsword website has some good info. Even though it mentions stage reenactment, it is based on Ringneck's work and others. And it can be used in the real world. The only difference is you aren't going to "pull your punches." 

A good example of this is seen here:

[video=youtube;Kj4Ng6DBfrg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&amp;feature=rellist&amp;playnext=1&amp;lis t=PL5F88CC939C91CFD4[/video]

This one looks like a "reenactment club", but they merely dress in the clothing to demonstrate the style. It's like the gi in karate.

[video=youtube;-0ninIXOkWg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0ninIXOkWg&amp;feature=related[/video]


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## J. Dean (Jan 11, 2012)

Alright... I have to admit the German Bruce Lee thing is pretty cool looking!

I studied arnis for a while. Loved it. Miss it.


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