# Romans 9:19



## JM (Apr 28, 2007)

What is this passage teaching?

Romans 9
1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 

*19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?* 

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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Do you believe this is speaking of absolute predestination of all things?

Thanks,

jason


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## Chris (Apr 28, 2007)

My understanding is that in 19, Paul is anticipating the typical arminian response, i.e. 'if God is in control, I'm not responsible for my sin'.


Paul pre-empts the arminian argument by presenting it in verse 19, then refuting it...well, everywhere else.

edit:

sorry, I missed the last line:



> Do you believe this is speaking of absolute predestination of all things?



No. I believe that verse is an anticipated arminian argument. It's not Paul's line of thought, but, rather, the (errant) line of thought Paul expects to be confronted with.


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## G.Wetmore (May 5, 2007)

In the context it is specifically speaking of the predestination of the elect, but the implications are far broader. It illustrates the foundational truth that God is soveriegn, while man remains responsible. It undermines the libertarian view of free will, that so many arminians hold to. namely, that if someones will is bound or determined by anything, including God, they are no longer free, and therefore no longer responsible. Of course this completely goes against Scripture that teaches that man freely acts, and therefore is morally culpable. And that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will. The Biblical position is that God ordains the free choices of men. Therefore, Paul silences the "arminian type" response, that argues that if God is soveriegn, there is no free will. 
So while it's not specifically on God's absolute predestination over all things, it is simply the application of God's absolute soveriegnty to one area. Yet the whole concept of Divine soveriegnty and human freedom is dealth with, which concerns all of God's acts of providence.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 5, 2007)

In the context, this is one of those "questions" that the _objector_ tosses back at Paul. Paul is undergirding his gospel presentation with the doctrine of election. And here at the end come two replies:
1) That's not fair! (v.14)
and
2) Then don't blame me! (v.19)

Those are the instinctive reaction of the natural man to the claims of God's sovereignty.

If someone's doctrine of election never elucidates this reaction or something similar from his listeners, I submit that person's doctrine of election is *sub-biblical*. We should be expecting the world to react in this way--in the language of the Arminians!--to our uncompromised Pauline doctrine of election.


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## KMK (May 5, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Those are the instinctive reaction of the natural man to the claims of God's sovereignty.
> 
> If someone's doctrine of election never elucidates this reaction or something similar from his listeners, I submit that person's doctrine of election is *sub-biblical*. We should be expecting the world to react in this way--in the language of the Arminians!--to our uncompromised Pauline doctrine of election.



This is excellent!  I have never thought of it that way! This could be said also of our teaching of the doctrine of sanctification in Rom 6 as well. We should expect that if we preach justification and reconciliation by faith well enough, we will hear objections similar to those that Paul presents in Rom 6.


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