# How do we stop planting RCA churches?



## SRoper (Jul 29, 2015)

Some recent events got me thinking, how do we in the PCA stop planting RCA churches? City Church, San Francisco, City Presbyterian (now City Church), Denver, and Grace Church, Chicago are all former PCA church plants that joined the RCA over women's ordination. I believe All Souls, Boulder is in the same boat. All are part of "City Classis" now. What do we need to do differently to avoid subsidizing RCA's urban church planting budget while not altogether avoiding urban church plants?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 29, 2015)

Maybe it will stop when the PCA repents of the good faith subscription fiasco, or it may end when PCA adopts egalitarianism and no need for the egalitarians to depart though others may determine it is time to leave at that point.


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## Edward (Jul 29, 2015)

I'll trade a Fred Harrell for a Kevin DeYoung any day of the week. And throw in a couple of more like minded churches, and call the trade fair. 

To be fair to MNA, I don't think anyone could have seen several decades ago how Fred would turn out. As to your other examples, I am less familiar, but perhaps a case study might point out things to watch for.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 30, 2015)

For those unfamiliar with the good faith subscription issue, see Ryan McGraw's article from a few years back at, http://katekomen.gpts.edu/2010/11/church-without-confession-some.html


NaphtaliPress said:


> Maybe it will stop when the PCA repents of the good faith subscription fiasco, or it may end when PCA adopts egalitarianism and no need for the egalitarians to depart though others may determine it is time to leave at that point.


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## SRoper (Jul 30, 2015)

Edward said:


> I'll trade a Fred Harrell for a Kevin DeYoung any day of the week. And throw in a couple of more like minded churches, and call the trade fair.
> 
> To be fair to MNA, I don't think anyone could have seen several decades ago how Fred would turn out. As to your other examples, I am less familiar, but perhaps a case study might point out things to watch for.



It is a good point that there are probably more RCA churches moving to the PCA than the other direction, and we benefit from gaining some good, faithful pastors. However, I think the RCA churches we gain are much more established, while the PCA churches we lose were recent plants. Maybe the answer is to simply plant liberally, understanding that some churches will become liberal and fall away.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 30, 2015)

SRoper said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > I'll trade a Fred Harrell for a Kevin DeYoung any day of the week. And throw in a couple of more like minded churches, and call the trade fair.
> ...



Part of the problem, though, is that a goodly proportion of those who are active as spawning daughter churches tend to be on the liberal end of the spectrum as it is... but yes, conservative churches ought to be very active in planting daughters and/or supporting others who do. I sincerely doubt that very many confessional PCA churches who plant daughter churches find their daughters straying into liberal lands.


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## Andrew P.C. (Jul 31, 2015)

NaphtaliPress said:


> For those unfamiliar with the good faith subscription issue, see Ryan McGraw's article from a few years back at, http://katekomen.gpts.edu/2010/11/church-without-confession-some.html
> 
> 
> NaphtaliPress said:
> ...



There are many things stated in this article that are good. However, one of the biggest problems I have with this article is this statement:



> Third, no Confession of Faith is infallible and unalterable. Instead of allowing undefined “exceptions” to the doctrinal Standards of the Church, the Church ought to change the Confession to reflect agreed upon terms of unity. Or, as Ward has urged, “exceptions to the Confession, if they are to be allowed at all, ought only to be a list specifically approved by the supreme court of the denomination concerned, so as to prevent mistrust, factions, and arbitrary actions by presbyteries, and to ensure safeguards arising from wrong inferences.”



One,the doctrines taught in the WCF have been untouched (with exception to the American Revision) for almost 400 years. If the doctrines within this confession are to be looked at as alterable in our present day and age, then maybe it's not the confession that's wrong but the cultural influence on the church. 

Two, the "changes" to the confession almost always start with unbiblical warrant. 

Three, if they have beef with biblical/historical doctrines that are summarized in the confessions... DON'T JOIN THE DENOMINATION! (That was a hard concept...)

Fourth, instead of saying that we should NOT see the confessions as unalterable so that there won't be any mistrust in their subscription, the people who are LYING about subscribing to the confession should stop violating God's Law.

Finally, in my opinion, it should be an automatic dismissal for ordination to anyone who has "exceptions" to the standards that they are bound to confess and teach. Why lie about saying you believe the confession is biblical when you will teach contrary to the confession later down the road?


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## Edward (Jul 31, 2015)

SRoper said:


> I think the RCA churches we gain are much more established, while the PCA churches we lose were recent plants.



I suppose 'recent' is a relative term. City San Francisco was planted in 1997, University Reformed in 1961 (although it grew out of a campus ministry which started a couple of years earlier.)


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## Edward (Jul 31, 2015)

toddpedlar said:


> Part of the problem, though, is that a goodly proportion of those who are active as spawning daughter churches tend to be on the liberal end of the spectrum as it is.



I can't disagree with that, but the Presbytery where the church is planted may be a factor, as well. (Recall when a fairly conservative church in Georgia wanted to plant a church in Utah. Given the lack of unity of vision between the church in Georgia and N.Cal., the plant ended up being under the OPC. 

------

Not directed at you, but in general - how do losses to the RCA compare to losses to the EPC? Weren't there more than a half dozen in New York that decamped to EPC two or three years ago?


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