# Total Depravity is Child Abuse



## Quatchu (Feb 7, 2013)

I came across this blog entry today: How the “I am a worm”/total depravity theology hurts children | Elizabeth Esther
It talks about how total depravity inevitable leads to psychological/physical child abuse. What do my fellow PB members think?


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## sevenzedek (Feb 7, 2013)

Quatchu said:


> I came across this blog entry today: How the “I am a worm”/total depravity theology hurts children | Elizabeth Esther
> It talks about how total depravity inevitable leads to psychological/physical child abuse. What do my fellow PB members think?



I think it's going to get worse.

If the face of evil helped spawn the cynicism of the postmodern era, into what era will we be heading when the face of evil reveals itself again? Evil is real, Elizabeth Esther, and calling it "good" sounds like a bad idea to me.


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## Quatchu (Feb 7, 2013)

I feel this has been taught for awhile now "God loves you just the way you are " so on. Its been the last few months that I have noticed not only it being taught but in a small trickle directly being questioned.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Feb 7, 2013)

It's not balanced, Justin (the article you noted in the OP). Tim Keller is fond of saying, "We are more wicked than we ever dared to think, and – simultaneously – more loved than we ever dared to hope." One needs to be careful and sensitive when speaking to children about such, that they be able to comprehend this idea, and of an age / maturity to ponder it aright.

Elizabeth's experience and understanding of what "total depravity" is came from those who did not understand either it or the grace of God as a provision for His children. If they did not understand God's lovingkindness toward His children, then it follows they would not show it to theirs.

Wrong doctrine may indeed wreck lives – and that in many areas.


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## arapahoepark (Feb 7, 2013)

According to the 'about' her page, she is violently reacting in the opposite way to her 'fundamentalist' upbringing.


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## Jack K (Feb 7, 2013)

What people don't like is the idea of sin and the label "sinner," largely because it's associated with manipulative preaching. And, of course, the gospel is gone as soon as you deny sin.

People need to see that although we start with depravity we end with believers being children of God. As that truth is explored, any idea that our theology makes kids feel bad about themselves is proven laughably false. Sadly, the church has often done a poor job of exploring and teaching the depth of the glories of the gospel, and this sort of criticism is one result.


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## JohnGill (Feb 7, 2013)

Quatchu said:


> I came across this blog entry today: How the “I am a worm”/total depravity theology hurts children | Elizabeth Esther
> It talks about how total depravity inevitable leads to psychological/physical child abuse. What do my fellow PB members think?



I wonder how she would deal with the Puritans who had compassion with their children because of their inherently depraved nature. 

Having read the article, it is little more than an appeal to pity. The mention of the Pearl's shows that her post suffers from her own personal bias due to her childhood experience. There are a lot of articles like this out there dealing with the Pearl's, IFB extreme churches, etc. The Pearl's, Gothard, and a few other such groups have posts very similar to this about the abuses by members within the group. Such posts don't invalidate all the teachings of said group. They merely invalidate the way members of said group practice those teachings. A parallel could be drawn with a "Christian" pro-lifer who bombs an abortion clinic. One so-called Christian bombed an abortion clinic so therefore he must be representative of all Christians.

Her argument is as follows:

My parents were believers in Total Depravity (or some variant of it)
My parents were extreme in their use of discipline
Therefore believers in Total Depravity are extreme in their use of discipline

The conclusion is a non sequitur. Such "arguments" are easy to refute by showing the inconsistency within it. Of course showing the argument is fraudulent and getting the originator to believe it so are two different things.


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## Quatchu (Feb 7, 2013)

I of course was not buying this, as I have already mentioned though i feel more and more of an attack on TD in the church lately.


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## JohnGill (Feb 7, 2013)

Quatchu said:


> I of course was not buying this, as I have already mentioned though i feel more and more of an attack on TD in the church lately.



Even in a PCA church?

You could always download the "Doctrines of Grace" file at Monergism and memorize all of those dealing with Total Depravity.


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## Quatchu (Feb 7, 2013)

No not in my own church, just from outside.


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## CharlieJ (Feb 7, 2013)

I think she's correct in most of what she asserts. I also think that her "total depravity" is not at all what informed Reformed people mean by that term. However, there are some non-Reformed people and some ill-informed Reformed people that have made a mess of the term. We must remember that "total" refers primarily to the _extent_ of depravity: however one divides up the human faculties, depravity somehow affects each and every one. "Total" has never meant that people are maximally wicked, or that they are incapable of performing acts which are morally commendable (though not meritorious for salvation). 

Luther distinguished between righteousness before God and righteousness before men. Unregenerate people never fulfill the former, but can be quite successful in terms of the latter. So, it would be a tragic misunderstanding to assert that everything that a person does is wicked on a horizontal plane. When this misunderstanding arises and is applied to children, it is very destructive. Parents can be predisposed to assume the worst about every single action their children perform; they "discipline" them accordingly. The parent-child relationship is construed primarily as adversarial warfare (against my wicked child) rather than as the nurturing covenant training of an immature disciple of Christ. I lived through fundamentalism and saw this happen frequently among people who certainly would not call themselves Calvinist, but somehow got this idea of "total depravity" meaning that their children did nothing but vomit evil and had to be forcefully resisted at every turn.


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## Miss Marple (Feb 7, 2013)

" Parents can be predisposed to assume the worst about every single action their children perform; they "discipline" them accordingly. The parent-child relationship is construed primarily as adversarial warfare (against my wicked child) rather than as the nurturing covenant training of an immature disciple of Christ."

Worth repeating.

This is the attitude (in my opinion) of "To Train Up A Child," which I have read. The attitude towards the child is as though he is a usurper, an enemy in the camp, so to speak. Whereas Jesus teaches us to be kind even to the stranger and to do unto others as we would have done unto us.

I don't think it's fair to blame the Pearls for the physical abuse of children reared by some who like the Pearls. In their book, I find no advocacy of abuse. But I don't like the overall attitude of it.


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