# I Need Encouragement and Assistance



## heartoflesh (Oct 31, 2007)

I have deleted my OP due to privacy concerns. Thanks again.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 31, 2007)

Rick,

I'll be  for you in your situation.

God Bless!


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Rick....I was once in your situation..I was once in YWAM which is dominated by semi-Pelagian thought....we had a speaker who kept up a long prattle about God's sorrow and repentance and all that....pretty much what you are talking about. May the Holy Spirit be with you and in you to grant you His mind and words.


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## KMK (Nov 1, 2007)

I came to an understanding of the DoG through a Bible Study at a CM&A church. The pastor taught through Romans and ended up converting a bunch of us. The funny thing was he had no intention of doing so but when you study Romans that is where you end up!

Most of the people in that Bible Study ended up leaving that church I am afraid to say. A better man than me might have been able to stick it out and hope to work through things in unity. 

My advice would be to pray and meet with your pastor and discuss these things with him. It is amazing what unity can do if any can be found. The problem I see for you is not over the DoG but over Dispensationalism. From studying the CM&A confession and talking to CM&A pastors there is really only one thing they demand and that is a dispensational eshatological view. Although I think you can be pre or posttrib.

I wouldn't engage these people you speak of with systematic arguments. Just teach the Bible. If you teach it faithfully then the DoG just naturally come out.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 1, 2007)

Lots of info that may help you out at

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 1, 2007)

John Piper has a good piece that addresses some of these issues. Are there two wills of God?


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## Ginny Dohms (Nov 1, 2007)

Rick,

We have lived what you are going through, and can empathize. My husband and I were both raised in the CM&A denomination. After we got married in 1977, my husband became an elder there. In 1985 we came to embrace Calvinism, and my husband was so excited to share that with his pastor. The first meeting went well and the pastor agreed to study it, and go through the five points of Calvinism in a weekly Bible study. He did the first study and he nailed the distinctives, causing my husband to rejoice in seeing, what he believed, was the beginning of a reformation in our church. The second week there was the district superintendent sitting in the Bible Study - he lived 3 hours away and had never attended a Bible Study before in our church. Coincidence?? I think not. The pastor stood up and said, "I know I taught you Calvinism last week, but the CM&A takes a middle position on that, and the studies will now be discontinued." My husband started to ask a question but he was silenced by the superintendent. The pastor later took him aside and asked my husband if our family wouldn't prefer to go to a Bible school that taught these things, or to another church where we would be more comfortable. So, there were no appeals open to us, but we were simply ushered out the door. It was devastating as this was our world - all our friends, family, social life, etc. was in the CM&A. We found out what it meant to 'count the cost'. It would be great to see the CM&A reformed, but I am not real hopeful that it will happen in my lifetime.


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## KMK (Nov 1, 2007)

Ginny Dohms said:


> Rick,
> 
> We have lived what you are going through, and can empathize. My husband and I were both raised in the CM&A denomination. After we got married in 1977, my husband became an elder there. In 1985 we came to embrace Calvinism, and my husband was so excited to share that with his pastor. The first meeting went well and the pastor agreed to study it, and go through the five points of Calvinism in a weekly Bible study. He did the first study and he nailed the distinctives, causing my husband to rejoice in seeing, what he believed, was the beginning of a reformation in our church. The second week there was the district superintendent sitting in the Bible Study - he lived 3 hours away and had never attended a Bible Study before in our church. Coincidence?? I think not. The pastor stood up and said, "I know I taught you Calvinism last week, but the CM&A takes a middle position on that, and the studies will now be discontinued." My husband started to ask a question but he was silenced by the superintendent. The pastor later took him aside and asked my husband if our family wouldn't prefer to go to a Bible school that taught these things, or to another church where we would be more comfortable. So, there were no appeals open to us, but we were simply ushered out the door. It was devastating as this was our world - all our friends, family, social life, etc. was in the CM&A. We found out what it meant to 'count the cost'. It would be great to see the CM&A reformed, but I am not real hopeful that it will happen in my lifetime.



Very similar expererience for me. The pastor made it clear that he 'was on the fence'. (Even used that exact phrase) The Bible Study quickly shut down and we were made to feel unwelcome at the church and have even been shunned by many of our old friends. They say they are 'on the fence' but that's only until you get off the fence then they are quick to make a stand against the DoG.


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## heartoflesh (Nov 1, 2007)

Hey, thanks everyone. 

Ginny, I'm sorry to hear about your experience at your C&MA church. I can't see that kind of thing happening here, but you never know. We've been without a head pastor for over a year now, and things have been a little unstable. (our interim pastor has been great but you need someone committed for the long haul to get other people committed) 

We actually have a guy from Rochester, New York candidating this week with us, and every indication is looking like he'll be our new pastor. He even has a radio program in Rochester, NY. Welcome to the Break Free! Christian Radio Ministry


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 1, 2007)

Rick,

For what it's worth, the issue of God's foreknowledge is not strictly a Calvinist/Arminian debate. Arminians believe that God knows the future exhaustively. I'll get back to the peculiarity and inconsistency of semi-Pelagians on this point however.

You could start from the standpoint that orthodox Christianity maintains the fact that God knows the future exhaustively. Only those that deny orthodoxy (read Open Theism and the like) deny the fact that God knows the future. Focus them away, for a moment, from the question of Noah. Ask them, if God doesn't know the future then how can prophecy be true? Is the Book of Revelation how God thinks it might work out in the future or does He know so exhaustively? If God is surprised by events like we are then we can't be certain that anything that was written in the 1st Century is still useful. What if God learned something knew since then? What parts of Scripture are still true? Challenge them on this very practical point. If they say that God is learning like we are then you need to leave the debate because you're not talking to Christians.

From that point, however, there is a very serious problem with Arminian theology on the point of God's exhaustive foreknowledge. The problem is that they want to maintain libertarian free will and God's foreknowledge concurrrently. By the former, I mean that they believe that human actions are not sovereignly controlled by God and that His control of all things stops at human decisions. It also means that men's decisions are completely arbitrary and not controlled by any inherent nature.

Now, if men insist that God knows the future exhaustively the world is a fatalist system indeed with very little purpose on God's part. You see, if God doesn't control events then they are uncontrolled but God knew about them beforehand as if He watched History in a movie before He created. He knew how it would all turn out and just set it all into motion. Things unfold precisely as they are destined to do except that God is not in control of them at all. What master plan did the Flood have? Who knows. It's just how things worked out. God had no plan in the Arminian scheme except to set in motion knowing what the free choices of every event would be.

Arminians and semi-Pelagians don't like reflecting upon the consequences of their theology. Don't defend the Sovereignty of God outright but have them reflect upon what their view of God's foreknowledge and control leaves them with. Ask them to give an account for prophecy, purpose, and foreknowledge given their view. Make them do some thinking since many of them are comfortable holding up complete contradictions without every considering it.

Above all, be patient. It doesn't do any good to "win" a debate. The goal is to edify others if they are believers. Help them to see how the Biblical view of things is most glorifying to God and not to have them admit that they are outright Calvinists. It is less important that they embrace terms than embracing Biblical truths about God's control of all things.


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## Mushroom (Nov 1, 2007)

> From studying the CM&A confession and talking to CM&A pastors there is really only one thing they demand and that is a dispensational eshatological view. Although I think you can be pre or posttrib.


This is also true of Awana. Really gets to be a job deprogramming your children every week.


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