# Sunday Best Or Casual



## servantofmosthigh

Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.

1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?

2. Those with adolescents: do you allow your teenagers to worship God in jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops? Or do you instruct them to dress in their very best?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Sunday Best, even if that is jeans.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

servantofmosthigh said:


> Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.
> 
> 1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?
> 
> 2. Those with adolescents: do you allow your teenagers to worship God in jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops? Or do you instruct them to dress in their very best?



1. There are no "holy clothes" in the NT. James 2.

2. Teenagers should obey their parents authority over what they wear.


----------



## JBaldwin

Though I think God is more concerned about our heart attitude than our clothes, we dress up a little and expect our children to do the same. However, what is "dressed up" in our Western Society now is nothing like it was when I was a child. What we used to call casual dress is now considered dressy. 

I remember worshipping in a church in the French countryside where the farmers had to come in their overalls (from milking cows, etc.) in order to make it to worship on time. Nobody was really bothered by that, because they maintained a worshipful attitude. 

While dress can be an indication of our heart attitude, some people don't own nice clothes, especially in my community. To get dressed up for them is putting on their best jeans, best pair of sandals and best T-shirt. If we get too worried about what people are wearing, we are starting to fall into the category of "outward appearances".


----------



## Kaalvenist

Where I'm at currently, "dressing up" for chapel service means wearing ACUs rather than PTs.  When I'm back in the States, I wear a suit and tie. I don't look down on anyone else for being less formally or more casually dressed; but it is my preference.


----------



## A5pointer

Wear fitting attire for an appointment with the King of the universe.


----------



## Craig

I used to never wear a shirt and tie to church...I did that all week at work. I wore (still do) dress pants and a button down...if Sunday is a day of rest,that is one way I do.

I occassionally wear a suit/sport coat...but only when I'm scheduled to be an usher. I'm not opposed to dressing up...I just need new suits to kill the memory of a job I was blessed to have for 2 years (but hated).


----------



## KMK

joshua said:


> I also want to make a qualification, I'd think it would be within the power of the Elders to address any attire that may serve as a great distraction from the Worship of God.



That is why have a stapler handy for any teens who show up with their underwear showing because their pants are too baggy.


----------



## Craig

before Josh chimes in...I must correct something...I said I used to never wear a shirt and tie...I did always wear a shirt upon reflection


----------



## KMK

BTW, if Purpose Driven has taught us anything it is that if we wear something other than a Hawaiian shirt, then we are too stuffy.


----------



## Coram Deo

What would you wear if you were invited to the King/Queen Throne Room of England? Or What would you wear if you were invited to Meet the President of the United States? Your very best formal clothing! Now what should you wear to worship and meet with the King of the Universe? It should be your finest and Best Formal Clothing... We are after all entering into the Throne Room of God. 

So I wear my best suit and tie..

My child and future children will do the same.. They should not be allowed to dress casual or in any way they want to come to the Throne of Grace... Education of this will start at the youngest age so there will be less of a problem with this when they get older... "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart".





servantofmosthigh said:


> Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.
> 
> 1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?
> 
> 2. Those with adolescents: do you allow your teenagers to worship God in jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops? Or do you instruct them to dress in their very best?


----------



## jambo

Our church is casual with only one person who would be found wearing a suit, and that is not the pastor. People feel comfortable as they can come as they are. In some other churches the dress code is more akin to Royal Ascot than church. The Reformers threw off "holy vestments," albeit for the clergy. The only attire I see are the robes of Christ's righteousness.


----------



## KMK

jambo said:


> Our church is casual with only one person who would be found wearing a suit, and that is not the pastor. People feel comfortable as they can come as they are. In some other churches the dress code is more akin to Royal Ascot than church. The Reformers threw off "holy vestments," albeit for the clergy. The only attire I see are the robes of Christ's righteousness.



BTW, "Hello" to "Jambo"!


----------



## Barnpreacher

Depends on the culture my friends. Pastoring in rural TN, I have poor people who come to my church that don't even own a suit and tie. And I don't expect them to go out and buy one either.


----------



## greenbaggins

I would just say one's best, whatever that is. You'd wear your best going to meet the President. But if you don't have a suit, the President would not fault you for not having something formal.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Coram Deo said:


> What would you wear if you were invited to the King/Queen Throne Room of England? Or What would you wear if you were invited to Meet the President of the United States? Your very best formal clothing! Now what should you wear to worship and meet with the King of the Universe? It should be your finest and Best Formal Clothing... We are after all entering into the Throne Room of God.



In the past I thought this way, so I definitely understand your view on church attire. I've shifted my view somewhat because whereas a king or queen, being human, is impressed or unimpressed by clothing, such things are essentially meaningless to God. I can't really find anything in the Bible that would sway me either toward casual or "Sunday best" for church. It seems that we should dress and act in a way that would be a positive witness for Christ, but otherwise I think this is an area of Christian liberty. 

It's also cultural to a very large degree. In the South people dress up much more than in the West and Northeast (West is the most casual, New York is somewhere in between).


----------



## Coram Deo

I agree that one's best would be determined by culture but the principle remains the same....

By the way, we have a Church thrift store around here that sell clothing that people donate.. My wife found me a whole suit in the best condition in my size and only paid $3.00 for it...

Most other clothing cost anywhere between 50 cents to $1.50 and they ain't no rags....

So a poor person can afford nice clothing and afford suits and ties....





Barnpreacher said:


> Depends on the culture my friends. Pastoring in rural TN, I have poor people who come to my church that don't even own a suit and tie. And I don't expect them to go out and buy one either.


----------



## BertMulder

Hopefully, you show on the outside what lives in the heart...


----------



## AV1611

I attend suited and booted.


----------



## Barnpreacher

Coram Deo said:


> By the way, we have a Church thrift store around here that sell clothing that people donate.. My wife found me a whole suit in the best condition in my size and only paid $3.00 for it...
> 
> Most other clothing cost anywhere between 50 cents to $1.50 and they ain't no rags....
> 
> So a poor person can afford nice clothing and afford suits and ties....



But if they look just as good in a pair of jeans and a shirt and suspenders then why should they feel they need to buy a suit and tie?


----------



## A5pointer

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would you wear if you were invited to the King/Queen Throne Room of England? Or What would you wear if you were invited to Meet the President of the United States? Your very best formal clothing! Now what should you wear to worship and meet with the King of the Universe? It should be your finest and Best Formal Clothing... We are after all entering into the Throne Room of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the past I thought this way, so I definitely understand your view on church attire. I've shifted my view somewhat because whereas a king or queen, being human, is impressed or unimpressed by clothing, such things are essentially meaningless to God. I can't really find anything in the Bible that would sway me either toward casual or "Sunday best" for church. It seems that we should dress and act in a way that would be a positive witness for Christ, but otherwise I think this is an area of Christian liberty.
> 
> It's also cultural to a very large degree. In the South people dress up much more than in the West and Northeast (West is the most casual, New York is somewhere in between).
Click to expand...


Ever give any thought to the specific prescription for priestly clothes? Just think it is a way for us to set ourselves peculiar and set apart to bring glory to the King. The line between the secular culture we live in and the church is getting so blurred casual dress just ads to it. Our Arminian friends do it to make sure average Joe isn't uncomfortable and this ideology keeps the Gospel from being proclaimed in the same vain. Our God need be feared, nothing wrong with an unbeliever being uncomfortable, it may be a start.


----------



## Coram Deo

Because Jeans and a shirt are casual wear... I would never come before the President wearing a pair of jeans (Personally, I don't even own a pair of Jeans) We must come with reverence and respect of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Jeans are casual loungey types of clothing.. Most respectable businesses won't even allow you to wear a pair of jeans to work or to eat at a decent restaurant because jeans are casual and it does show a lack of reverence when coming before the King and Lord in a pair of jeans In my humble opinion. 

Listen, I am well below the poverty level.. My health and circumstances does not allow for us to buy many things. If you saww our tax reporting you would not believe us and think How on earth did they survive.. Only by the Grace of God. But I have decent clothing and wear something respectable and reverencial before the Lord when I come to Corporately worship him on the Sabbath. I see it as respect...





Barnpreacher said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, we have a Church thrift store around here that sell clothing that people donate.. My wife found me a whole suit in the best condition in my size and only paid $3.00 for it...
> 
> Most other clothing cost anywhere between 50 cents to $1.50 and they ain't no rags....
> 
> So a poor person can afford nice clothing and afford suits and ties....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if they look just as good in a pair of jeans and a shirt and suspenders then why should they feel they need to buy a suit and tie?
Click to expand...


----------



## Barnpreacher

Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.


----------



## BertMulder

This whole issue has more to do with our concept of the church service, than anything else. Our dress is a symptomatic issue.

At bottom of the issue is the Holiness of God, and the church service being in worship to the Holy Trinity.

And our understanding of his holiness will not only be reflected in men wearing suits, and ladies wearing clothing appropriate (and not inciting to lust), 

But also our, and our families, behavior in the Sanctuary during the Worship service. 

So for children not to treat the sanctuary as a playground, for instance...

So for people to wait for the full completion of the service, before they start putting their coats on...

So for people, if they have to leave during prayer, to not barge back in and disturb the worship, but wait for appropriate moment (in a concert you are not let in until a break in the music)...

So, again, what lives in the heart is what will show...

Our God is a consuming fire!
.


----------



## Barnpreacher

Coram Deo said:


> Because Jeans and a shirt are casual wear... I would never come before the President wearing a pair of jeans (Personally, I don't even own a pair of Jeans) We must come with reverence and respect of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Jeans are casual loungey types of clothing.. Most respectable businesses won't even allow you to wear a pair of jeans to work or to eat at a decent restaurant because jeans are casual and it does show a lack of reverence when coming before the King and Lord in a pair of jeans In my humble opinion.
> 
> Listen, I am well below the poverty level.. My health and circumstances does not allow for us to buy many things. If you saww our tax reporting you would not believe us and think How on earth did they survive.. Only by the Grace of God. But I have decent clothing and wear something respectable and reverencial before the Lord when I come to Corporately worship him on the Sabbath. I see it as respect...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, we have a Church thrift store around here that sell clothing that people donate.. My wife found me a whole suit in the best condition in my size and only paid $3.00 for it...
> 
> Most other clothing cost anywhere between 50 cents to $1.50 and they ain't no rags....
> 
> So a poor person can afford nice clothing and afford suits and ties....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if they look just as good in a pair of jeans and a shirt and suspenders then why should they feel they need to buy a suit and tie?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


These are your opinions. Where's the Scripture for it? I'm starting to take this thread a little bit in the wrong light and I'm going to start getting a little defensive of some of my folks that have never been in the culture where going out to eat in a suit and tie is the only acceptable clothing. There are no restaurants like that where I pastor. Be careful how you're using the word respect and reverential.


----------



## A5pointer

Barnpreacher said:


> Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.



No, problem if it is the norm for Sunday Best. Is it really like that many places? Where ties and slacks would be unavailable or seem so peculiar that they are not even owned?


----------



## JBaldwin

Barnpreacher said:


> Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.



I agree, and as I said already. I know people who proudly put on their best jeans and best T-shirt to go to church and feel as they they are putting on a suit and tie, because jeans and T-shirt is all they have and all they want to have.


----------



## Pilgrim

Have any of you noticed a tendency for people to dress more formally for the Sunday morning service and more casually for the evening service?


----------



## Barnpreacher

A5pointer said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, problem if it is the norm for Sunday Best. Is it really like that many places? Where ties and slacks would be unavailable or seem so peculiar that they are not even owned?
Click to expand...


Bruce,

I'd say it might be more than we think. If clothes like that are all farmers and ranchers etc. have ever known then owning a suit and tie probably never even crossed their mind. It has nothing to do with reverence or respect.


----------



## Barnpreacher

BertMulder said:


> This whole issue has more to do with our concept of the church service, than anything else. Our dress is a symptomatic issue.
> 
> At bottom of the issue is the Holiness of God, and the church service being in worship to the Holy Trinity.
> 
> And our understanding of his holiness will not only be reflected in men wearing suits, and ladies wearing clothing appropriate (and not inciting to lust),
> 
> But also our, and our families, behavior in the Sanctuary during the Worship service.
> 
> So for children not to treat the sanctuary as a playground, for instance...
> 
> So for people to wait for the full completion of the service, before they start putting their coats on...
> 
> So for people, if they have to leave during prayer, to not barge back in and disturb the worship, but wait for appropriate moment (in a concert you are not let in until a break in the music)...
> 
> So, again, what lives in the heart is what will show...
> 
> Our God is a consuming fire!
> .




Bert,

While I agree wholeheartedly with your post, I think it's going beyond the discussion of what kind of clothes some people own as their Sunday best.


----------



## DMcFadden

Oops. During my 22 years of pastoring, it was ALWAYS a suit and tie for the traditional service. During my last pastorate, we had a casual service as well so my attire depended on the hour. For the last 11 years, I wear a suit and tie to work daily and cannot wait to wear casual pants and a polo shirt to church on Sunday. A couple of weeks ago, the senior pastor was called away on Sunday morning and I was called at 5:00 a.m. to preach to 600 folks that morning. (We had a few extra people because our church was celebrating Christ's resurrection -- NOT a special holy day, folks, calm down). So, I wore a suit and tie.


----------



## BertMulder

Barnpreacher said:


> Bert,
> 
> While I agree wholeheartedly with your post, I think it's going beyond the discussion of what kind of clothes some people own as their Sunday best.



Agreed, pastor

And agree wholeheartedly with the esteemed Zwingli, in converting the heart, rather than converting outward behavior.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Pilgrim said:


> Have any of you noticed a tendency for people to dress more formally for the Sunday morning service and more casually for the evening service?



Yes. Absolutely. I even notice myself doing that almost subconsciously, in the Winter months I always wear a sweater vest under my suit coat and will often leave the suit coat at home when going to the evening service.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Barnpreacher said:


> These are your opinions. Where's the Scripture for it?



This is the key to this discussion. As if "Sunday dress" weren't subjective enough, where in Scripture do we even see the need for this? I certainly agree that looking ragged is inappropriate for church on the grounds that it is not a good witness, but beyond that there is no absolute standard based on what the Bible tells us. Again, I completely understand the "heart issue," but I don't think nice casual vs. business suit reflects a difference in one's walk with Christ...


----------



## Poimen

No matter what we may think is fine or acceptable for worship I hope we would all agree that it is wrong to say that 'it doesn't matter' what you wear to worship. Such an attitude or statement reveals a flippant view of worship that does not accord with the scripture (Hebrews 12:28-29) _regardless_ of whether the one who makes that statement is wearing a suit and tie or the poorest rags.


----------



## JBaldwin

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> These are your opinions. Where's the Scripture for it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the key to this discussion. As if "Sunday dress" weren't subjective enough, where in Scripture do we even see the need for this? I certainly agree that looking ragged is inappropriate for church on the grounds that it is not a good witness, but beyond that there is no absolute standard based on what the Bible tells us. Again, I completely understand the "heart issue," but I don't think nice casual vs. business suit reflects a difference in one's walk with Christ...
Click to expand...


I agree. I can't imagine that in places in the world where people own nothing but one item of clothing (and there are many like that), that God is going to judge them because they didn't go get a suit and tie to wear to worhsip on the Lord's Day.


----------



## JBaldwin

joshua said:


> Poimen said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter what we may think is fine or acceptable for worship I hope we would all agree that it is wrong to say that 'it doesn't matter' what you wear to worship. Such an attitude or statement reveals a flippant view of worship that does not accord with the scripture (Hebrews 12:28-29) _regardless_ of whether the one who makes that statement is wearing a suit and tie or the poorest rags.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh GREAT!
> 
> Thank you, Rev. Kok for totally killing the thread by resolving it for everybody.
> 
> It was sooooooooooooooooo much fun continuing to talk past one another. Sheesh. Rev. Killjoy.
> 
> *huff*
Click to expand...


----------



## Herald

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> These are your opinions. Where's the Scripture for it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the key to this discussion. As if "Sunday dress" weren't subjective enough, where in Scripture do we even see the need for this? I certainly agree that looking ragged is inappropriate for church on the grounds that it is not a good witness, but beyond that there is no absolute standard based on what the Bible tells us. Again, I completely understand the "heart issue," but I don't think nice casual vs. business suit reflects a difference in one's walk with Christ...
Click to expand...


Mason, I concur. Those who hold to a strict view of the RPW should concur also. Scripture does not instruct on a Lord's Day dress code, although neat and appropriate is an expression of character, not legalism. Cultural considerations play a great part in determining what to wear. 

Look at James 2:1-13.



> *James 2:1-13 * My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.



If an undo emphasis is placed on outward appearance it can morph into favoritism and partiality. The gap between those with means and the poor can sometimes be wide. Paul condemned the Corinthians for allowing this socio-economic divide to manifest itself in abuse of the Lord's Supper. I choose to dress neatly and normative based on what the rest of my church is able to do. 

There was a church in Florida that my family and I visited a few years back while on vacation. If I mentioned the name everyone on the PB would recognize it. A member of the pastoral staff was on record about wearing a suit or jacket and tie on the Lord's Day. We were on vacation and only had casual attire, but we still wished to worship on the Lord's Day. We attended this church and stood out like a sore thumb. No one greeted us. No one said hello to us. They were downright unfriendly and rude. Was it because of the dress code (spoken or unspoken)? No. It was an elitist attitude that was prevalent in outward appearance. If we place too much emphasis on the externals they will reflect an imbalance with the internals.


----------



## FenderPriest

servantofmosthigh said:


> Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.
> 
> 1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?



I wear the same thing every day of the week - Sunday through Saturday. Jeans, collared shirt, brown leather shoes, wedding band, and imputed righteousness!


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

So do you wear and suit and tie for private devotions?




Coram Deo said:


> What would you wear if you were invited to the King/Queen Throne Room of England? Or What would you wear if you were invited to Meet the President of the United States? Your very best formal clothing! Now what should you wear to worship and meet with the King of the Universe? It should be your finest and Best Formal Clothing... We are after all entering into the Throne Room of God.
> 
> So I wear my best suit and tie..
> 
> My child and future children will do the same.. They should not be allowed to dress casual or in any way they want to come to the Throne of Grace... Education of this will start at the youngest age so there will be less of a problem with this when they get older... "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> servantofmosthigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.
> 
> 1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?
> 
> 2. Those with adolescents: do you allow your teenagers to worship God in jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops? Or do you instruct them to dress in their very best?
Click to expand...


----------



## Zenas

I wear a suit to set an example as a church officer, not so much that everyone needs to wear suits, but that we all need to look presentable when going to worship because it's not something to be taken lightly. If I were to appear before a judge, or royalty, or anyone else in a high position, though they be but earthly rulers, I would take it very serious what I wore out of respect to them. That much more is true when worshipping the Sovereign. Even if looking presentable is washing the one set of clothes that you have, then obviously that's what I would think one would do.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

As the old saying goes..."He changed my heart, not my shirt."

Matthew Henry said, "God looks not on outward pomp, but he looks at the tokens and expressions of inward reverence for a divine institution..." 

Sometimes the "token and expression of inward reverence" may be seen in a suit and tie, other times not. in my opinion, there is no place or need for legalistic dress codes in God's church.

We are nowhere commanded to formal dress as a condition for biblical worship.


----------



## ModernPuritan?

I operate under the assumption that God cares about the heart- your heart. Personally, I found i physically feel better about studying Gods word when im comfortable. that means for me, No tie, no dress slacks, and comfortable shoes (or no shoes at home  ) course if i get to comfortable- i sleep. so for me there is a line, I know that line, I see nothing wrong with being comfortable in church.

a Bad heart can lead to appropriate and inappropriate dress (immodest) but one can not have a right heart and wear immodest clothing.

So i would contend that, the strictly biblical answer (devoid of modern culture) is that oone should only dress modestly. 

when we bring culture in- we have various veiws about "what is modest" some assume that any modern clothing not found in the victorian era is immodest. thats a whole different debate. but as far as what is relavent to this debate consider this

(this maybe where my first paragraph falls apart..) Yes I feel comfortable in jeans and shirts/polos ... I would excuse a man wearing jeans and a polo to church. but would i would support his choice as long as his heart was right. but if that guy showed up to a wedding?????

so throw out what man would think at weddings or???


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> As the old saying goes..."He changed my heart, not my shirt."
> 
> Matthew Henry said, "God looks not on outward pomp, but he looks at the tokens and expressions of inward reverence for a divine institution..."
> 
> Sometimes the "token and expression of inward reverence" may be seen in a suit and tie, other times not. in my opinion, there is no place or need for legalistic dress codes in God's church.
> 
> We are nowhere commanded to formal dress as a condition for biblical worship.



Nowhere. The insistence upon it is inconsistent with the RPW.


----------



## Scott Shahan

Matthew 23:25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. you can look pretty on the outside with your new suit on but how do you look on the inside, is the real question.


----------



## etexas

Here in Texas....it is a weather issue (in summer) Look, In cooler weather I wear a suit or slacks and jacket, sometimes when it is hot, I wear some nice jeans, and a short sleeve button up shirt. I think as long as modesty and having a right heart are there, I "reckon" that is what is important.


----------



## raekwon

Since the Bible doesn't really speak to the issue, I'd think that the same "rules" for dress in "everyday life" would apply to corporate worship. Rules like . . .

1) Does it fit?
2) Is it clean?
3) Is it modest . . .
- in the "doesn't show too much skin" sense?
- in the "doesn't show off your wealth" sense?
4) Is it culturally appropriate?
- In other words, what's the general tone of attire in the church? If everyone else is in a suit, then err toward the side of formal dress. If everyone else is in jeans and tees, then err toward the side of more "casual" dress.

Thoughts?


----------



## etexas

raekwon said:


> Since the Bible doesn't really speak to the issue, I'd think that the same "rules" for dress in "everyday life" would apply to corporate worship. Rules like . . .
> 
> 1) Does it fit?
> 2) Is it clean?
> 3) Is it modest . . .
> - in the "doesn't show too much skin" sense?
> - in the "doesn't show off your wealth" sense?
> 4) Is it culturally appropriate?
> - In other words, what's the general tone of attire in the church? If everyone else is in a suit, then err toward the side of formal dress. If everyone else is in jeans and tees, then err toward the side of more "casual" dress.
> 
> Thoughts?


Interesting! You know, if you were at Worship in a less than affluent area and men were wearing their best khakis or jeans, I think we would have to think about how it would look showing up in a 2000 dollar Armani suit. To a degree despite the fact that this might be your "finest" you would have to consider that you might be bringing shame to your Brethren.  Good point Rae.


----------



## 21st Century Calvinist

I take the view that if it is decent and modest then it is probably appropriate to wear to worship. So it probably is not appropriate that I wear my U2 T shirt or Scotland rugby shirt! 
I used to do the whole Sunday best thing. Then I started being more casual for evening worship. Now, I tend to "business casual."
I have been in worship services where everyone is dressed like they are at a funeral. What kind of image does that project to the surrounding community or the visitor who drops by the worship service?


----------



## VictorBravo

I'm surprised nobody has brought up James 2:2-4:



> For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
> And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
> Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?


----------



## Herald

victorbravo said:


> I'm surprised nobody has brought up James 2:2-4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
> And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
> Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Click to expand...


Vic,

I did: HERE


----------



## VictorBravo

North Jersey Baptist said:


> victorbravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised nobody has brought up James 2:2-4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
> And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
> Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Vic,
> 
> I did: HERE
Click to expand...


Ooops. Sorry, Bill. My speedreading skills are fading. 

Maybe it should be brought up on each page.


----------



## Herald

joshua said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> victorbravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised nobody has brought up James 2:2-4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vic,
> 
> I did: HERE
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bill, he means using the real translation of the Scriptures.
Click to expand...


Joshua, you mean this....?



> Σαμες 2:1-13 Αδελφοι, μοὑ μη. εϝν προσωπολημψι,αις ε·ξετε τη.ν πι,στιν τού κυρι,ου ὴμών ϜΙησού Ξριστού τής δο,χησÅ 2 εϝα.ν γα.ρ ειϝσε,λθῃ ειϝς συναγωγη.ν ὺμών αϝνη.ρ ξρυσοδακτυ,λιος εϝν εϝσθήτι λαμπρᾅ ειϝσε,λθῃ δε. και. πτωξο.ς εϝν ρ`υπαρᾴ εϝσθήτἱ 3 εϝπιβλε,ψητε δε. εϝπι. το.ν φορούντα τη.ν εϝσθήτα τη.ν λαμπρα.ν και. ει·πητὲ συ. κα,θου ω-δε καλώσ῾ και. τῴ πτωξῴ ει·πητὲ συ. στήθι εϝκεί η' κα,θου ὺπο. το. ὺποπο,διο,ν μοὑ 4 ουϝ διεκρι,θητε εϝν ὲαυτοίς και. εϝγε,νεσθε κριται. διαλογισμών πονηρώνÈ 5 ϜΑκου,σατἑ αϝδελφοι, μου αϝγαπητοι,` ουϝξ ὸ θεο.ς εϝχελε,χατο του.ς πτωξου.ς τῴ κο,σμῳ πλουσι,ους εϝν πι,στει και. κληρονο,μους τής βασιλει,ας η-ς εϝπηγγει,λατο τοίς αϝγαπώσιν αυϝτο,νÈ 6 ὺμείς δε. ηϝτιμα,σατε το.ν πτωξο,νÅ ουϝξ οὶ πλου,σιοι καταδυναστευ,ουσιν ὺμών και. αυϝτοι. ε[λκουσιν ὺμάς ειϝς κριτη,ριαÈ 7 ουϝκ αυϝτοι. βλασφημούσιν το. καλο.ν ο·νομα το. εϝπικληθε.ν εϝφϜ ὺμάσÈ 8 Ειϝ με,ντοι νο,μον τελείτε βασιλικο.ν κατα. τη.ν γραφη,ν` αϝγαπη,σεις το.ν πλησι,ον σου ὼς σεαυτο,ν῾ καλώς ποιείτὲ 9 ειϝ δε. προσωπολημπτείτἑ ὰμαρτι,αν εϝργα,ζεσθε εϝλεγξο,μενοι ὺπο. τού νο,μου ὼς παραβα,ταιÅ 10 ο[στις γα.ρ ο[λον το.ν νο,μον τηρη,σῃ πται,σῃ δε. εϝν ὲνι,῾ γε,γονεν πα,ντων ε·νοξοσÅ 11 ὸ γα.ρ ειϝπω,ν` μη. μοιξευ,σῃσ῾ εῖπεν και,` μη. φονευ,σῃσ` ειϝ δε. ουϝ μοιξευ,εις φονευ,εις δε,῾ γε,γονας παραβα,της νο,μουÅ 12 ου[τως λαλείτε και. ου[τως ποιείτε ὼς δια. νο,μου εϝλευθερι,ας με,λλοντες κρι,νεσθαιÅ 13 ὴ γα.ρ κρι,σις αϝνε,λεος τῴ μη. ποιη,σαντι ε·λεοσ` κατακαυξάται ε·λεος κρι,σεωσÅ


----------



## uberkermit

A few thoughts to consider,

To those who use the argument 'How would you dress in front of the President or Prime Minister or Queen' let me ask one thing: Why do you create such a dichotomy between meeting the Lord on the Lord's day and meeting the Lord on any other day while in prayer and family worship? Assuming there is no difference (for he is just as much Lord of the universe on Tuesday as he is on the Lord's day) then who are you dressing for on the Lord's day? Why don't you dress up every other day? Is your motivation to dress up on the Lord's day really to please the Lord? To take this a little further, if it is to be expected that we must dress in our best for the Lord's day because we are meeting the king of the universe, who is the judge of what is 'best'? Is your three-piece suit good enough? Or should you be wearing something more along the lines of what Benny Hinn would be seen in (think gold thread)? And why not go one step further; is that Corolla you drive to church with good enough for our Lord, or should be driving a Lexus or Mercedes? 

For me the issue is this; can a man be saved and sanctified and come to church without a three-piece suit? As for salvation, 'one is not a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly and circumcision is a matter of the heart by the spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.' It seems to me that Christians can be caught up in worrying about what others think of how they dress rather than what God thinks.

I do believe the Bible speaks to the issue of dressing modestly. Of course we only address this to the believer and not the unbeliever 'for what have I to do with outsiders?' Personally, I am convinced that promoting any manner of dressing beyond the issue of modesty might be good grounds for discipline.


----------



## servantofmosthigh

Wow, great dialogues from everybody across the board. I, myself, try to motivate my church to consider how they dress when meeting together for worshipping our Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

Although the parable in Matthew 22:1-14 is referring very clearly about the future ushering of the Kingdom of Heaven and that only those clothed in Christ's righteousness will be allowed to enter and participate in the wedding ceremony, I think there is a present-day here-and-now application that we may want to consider. The king was appalled to see the one guest without the appropriate attire for the occasion (v.11-13).

My church is in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. Most of my core-group/congregation work in some area of the government (e.g. NIH, Pentagon, FDA, NASA, etc.). They are all REQUIRED by their employers to wear appropriate business casual attire. According to their employers, wearing less than business casual (e.g. jeans and t-shirts) degrades professional work atmosphere and instead promotes a _casualness_ that could easily escalate into work _sloppiness_ or _complacency_. I just wonder, for those worship services that may be _sloppy_ or just too _casual_, could a change in congregational attire change the entire atmosphere and attitude of worship into one that is more reverential and respectful?

What are your thoughts on this?


----------



## raekwon

servantofmosthigh said:


> Wow, great dialogues from everybody across the board. I, myself, try to motivate my church to consider how they dress when meeting together for worshipping our Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
> 
> Although the parable in Matthew 22:1-14 is referring very clearly about the future ushering of the Kingdom of Heaven and that only those clothed in Christ's righteousness will be allowed to enter and participate in the wedding ceremony, I think there is a present-day here-and-now application that we may want to consider. The king was appalled to see the one guest without the appropriate attire for the occasion (v.11-13).



Interesting. I've never thought of such an application for that parable (and I'm still not convinced of it). Nonetheless, it's interesting to consider. Hmm...



> My church is in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. Most of my core-group/congregation work in some area of the government (e.g. NIH, Pentagon, FDA, NASA, etc.). They are all REQUIRED by their employers to wear appropriate business casual attire. According to their employers, wearing less than business casual (e.g. jeans and t-shirts) degrades professional work atmosphere and instead promotes a _casualness_ that could easily escalate into work _sloppiness_ or _complacency_. I just wonder, for those worship services that may be _sloppy_ or just too _casual_, where a change in congregational attire just might change the entire atmosphere and attitude of worship into one that is more reverential and respectful.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?



Yeah, it's probably possible that a church-wide change in attire could have some sort of psychological effect on the wearers to the point that they behave in a more reverential way during corporate worship . . . but then, all you have is a congregation of folks whose behavior has been modified by what they wear. That's not the same thing as reverence for God motivated by the work of his Spirit.

Now, don't get me wrong . . . God can use those same psychological effects for his glory and indeed bring about a Spirit-wrought reverence in worship. I'm just saying that it'd be a mistake to equate the two.

And how's this for an anomaly . . . of the four PCA churches in our immediate metropolitan area, my church has the youngest demographic and almost certainly the most "casual" dress across the board. We're urban. We have lots of college students, grad students, and young professionals. T-shirts, jeans, and tattoos aren't at all out of place. Still, of those four churches, our order of worship is almost certainly more "conservative" than the suit-and-tie or polo-and-khakis suburban churches nearby. We use a modified form of Calvin's Geneva Liturgy. We sing hymns (though with new tunes and loud instruments). We commune at the Lord's Table weekly and with real wine.

Just goes to show that our assumptions about dress and reverence in worship aren't always right.


----------



## Archlute

Great thread. I haven't seen this argument mentioned here, thankfully (although the interpretation of the parable in Will's post #64 above comes mightily close), but have heard it before from both Protestant ministers and Roman Catholic priests, and so will bring it up. Some will argue that we should wear suits and such because when we realize that we are coming to worship before a holy and all consuming God, we will seek to reflect that in our dress, and to present ourselves before him in our best dress. The idea is that we should seek to please God in every way in our worship, as he is a holy and all consuming fire. Of course, the big problem with this view is that it seeks to please God in a way that will never sway him one way or another. It is a view that keeps God's people in the shadows of Sinai. They have forgotten (or would deny) that when the Father looks upon us all that he sees are his children, clothed in the robes of Christ's righteousness. His holiness has now become our holiness, and seeking to bolster or reflect that with some sort of outward standard of dress absolutely fails to understand the radical nature of our justification and of Christ's imputed righteousness.


----------



## Scott Shahan

Well said, Adam. Amen to that brother.


----------



## Archlute

Scott Shahan said:


> Well said, Adam. Amen to that brother.



Thanks for the hearty affirmation, brother, I almost missed it!


----------



## bookslover

When I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, all the men wore suits and ties and dress shoes (we used to call them "hard shoes") to church. All the women wore dresses - and hats - and heels. Obviously, the culture has changed since then.

I agree that the Bible does not speak to this issue and that we have Christian liberty in this area.

Personally, I would like to wear a suit and tie to church on Sunday. However, I'm a warm-blooded kind of guy and I would sweat like a pig if I wore a suit (I don't have to wear one where I work). And that would not look pretty! So, I dress cleanly and appropriately, but casually.

We do have one young man (40) in our congregation who, during the spring and summer, actually has a blue-and-white-striped seersucker suit which he wears with white Oxfords ("Pat Boone shoes") and a bow tie! Stylin'!! He gets kidded mercilessly ("How much is your ice cream?"), but I must admit, he does look pretty nifty!


----------



## servantofmosthigh

Archlute said:


> Great thread. I haven't seen this argument mentioned here, thankfully (although the interpretation of the parable in Will's post #64 above comes mightily close), but have heard it before from both Protestant ministers and Roman Catholic priests, and so will bring it up.



I think that the very term itself, "Sunday Best," is almost completely out of ecclesiological verbage today, simply because so many churches today want to promote and advertise themselves as "come as you are," "casual atmosphere," etc. Has anyone seen a church promote or advertise themselves as, "come to worship God reverentially," or "holy atmosphere?"

Is the way we dress reflective, either subtly or more poignantly, of our worship?


----------



## Pergamum

Last month this actually occurred:


We were way deep interior, with a local gov't official too (he felt sorry for these "poor backward" people he saidand so traveled with us and bemoaned how much they needed to be "humanified").

Sunday rolls around. The local evangelists give the local official the pulpit to preach (showing too a dangeorus mix of church and state...I was not present during the first half of the service).


This gov't official was wearing a full get up - it looked ridiculous. He even had a tie and black shiny shoes on (which got sucked off in the mud on the way home...ha ha). The locals barely had clothes at all and some of them were wearing leaves. 

During the "sermon" this man pointed to his clothes and told the people that they too could have this if they obeyed God and worked hard.

The contrast was disconcerting. 


I purposely dress in shorts, plain shirt and I go barefoot - to match the level of the people. While "going native" is not always the option for me, to dress above the people is not desirable.


I have known folks here and in the States who were ashamed of going to church due to lack of good enough clothes. 

We should put no unneccesary barriers in place for people coming to worship. A real or unwritten clothing expectation is one such barrier.


I also brought a girl to church one time during college and had someone comment to me that she should really wear a skirt instead of pants. I was infuriated and she never came back.


----------



## Archlute

Pergamum said:


> I also brought a girl to church one time during college and had someone comment to me that she should really wear a skirt instead of pants. I was infuriated and she never came back.



This actually could be the start of another thread, because there is a great difference between wearing "richer or poorer" clothing within the style of one's own sex, and the wearing of clothing that some would see as a mixing of the sexes and pushing cultural androgyny, such as was prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5. It is presented in Scripture as a moral issue, and I do not think that an individual is out of line in holding and voicing this opinion (although more wisdom could possibly have been used regarding the best time to bring this issue up).

For what it's worth, I'm not fond of missiologists, and don't buy most of their culturally relativistic arguments regarding issues such as this. Yes, I have heard them state that what Scripture defines as stealing really isn't stealing if the culture in which it takes place does not see what they are doing as "stealing"


----------



## etexas

Archlute said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also brought a girl to church one time during college and had someone comment to me that she should really wear a skirt instead of pants. I was infuriated and she never came back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This actually could be the start of another thread, because there is a great difference between wearing "richer or poorer" clothing within the style of one's own sex, and the wearing of clothing that some would see as a mixing of the sexes and pushing cultural androgyny, such as was prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5. It is presented in Scripture as a moral issue, and I do not think that an individual is out of line in holding and voicing this opinion (although more wisdom could possibly have been used regarding the best time to bring this issue up).
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not fond of missiologists, and don't buy most of their culturally relativistic arguments regarding issues such as this. Yes, I have heard them state that what Scripture defines as stealing really isn't stealing if the culture in which it takes place does not see what they are doing as "stealing"
Click to expand...

So Adam, would it be a bad time to say I sort of borrowed your car last night. (They do it in Brazil ALL the time)!


----------



## Pergamum

Archlute said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also brought a girl to church one time during college and had someone comment to me that she should really wear a skirt instead of pants. I was infuriated and she never came back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This actually could be the start of another thread, because there is a great difference between wearing "richer or poorer" clothing within the style of one's own sex, and the wearing of clothing that some would see as a mixing of the sexes and pushing cultural androgyny, such as was prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5. It is presented in Scripture as a moral issue, and I do not think that an individual is out of line in holding and voicing this opinion (although more wisdom could possibly have been used regarding the best time to bring this issue up).
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not fond of missiologists, and don't buy most of their culturally relativistic arguments regarding issues such as this. Yes, I have heard them state that what Scripture defines as stealing really isn't stealing if the culture in which it takes place does not see what they are doing as "stealing"
Click to expand...



Ha...you're kidding right? Pulling out the ol' Deuteronomy 22:5 on me, heh?


These pants were clearly female pants. 


There needs to be a bit of leeway for culture when it comes to dress. You don't wear a frilly white poet's shirt and a powdered wig do you? You don't wear an inner and outer tunic like Jesus did do you, and you might might have the long untrimmed beard of the Jews. You wear shoes instead of "Jesus sandals" and you might wear the silliest invention of all time - the tie.


Being smart about cultural differences doesn't mean wholesale relativism...come on now, that should be plain.



About communal property and stealing: If the tribe owns a land collectively and all the fruit trees on the land, who can pick the fruit? Even stealing, murder, adultery...all these have cultural factors which worsen or lessen the transgression.


----------



## Scott Shahan

This is what Jesus said,

Matthew 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, *nor about your body, what you will put on. *Is not life more than food, *and the body more than clothing? *26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? [7]* 28 And why are you anxious about clothing?* *Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.* 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 *Therefore do not be anxious, saying,* ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or *‘What shall we wear?’* 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Did Jesus ever harp on His Disciples about what they were wearing in His Presence? Did Jesus make it a "Big issue"? I don't think that he did. This issue falls under the heading of "Christian liberty".


----------



## Contra_Mundum

Does anyone think it is wrong for a person to insist on "coming as he is" to make a point?

I mean, doesn't love and acceptance flow both ways? Would you be willing to come in "community standards" of acceptable dress so as not to make the contented majority in that place wonder why its so important to tear those standards down? Is it really all about "don't judge me!" or could it be about "I think (judge!) you folks to be uptight about dress, and I'm going to pop your bubble. So there."

I don't expect a church in Southern California to be filled with "overdressed people," but bermuda shirts and shorts might be flat "out of place" in a small town in Iowa.

And one other thing... keeping James 2 in mind and all, is it in keeping with a heart of love to God to _look like you could care less_ about preparing pretty much *at all* for worship? Like you could barely roll out of bed in time to make it to church before the first hymn was finished?

I just think there's more to an answer here than a single verse or passage. This is a "wisdom" issue, not a legalistic one. And no, people aren't going to look the same from place to place, nor typically within one congregation. Remember, the James 2 text isn't even dealing with the attitude of the +/- dressed person at all, *but the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and prejudiced treatment.*

Why should it be odd to expect some connection between one's outward presentation and inward bent? Just because they might not correlate--bad timing (one way) or hypocrisy (the other)? Doesn't this verse imply the legitimate connection sometimes: Pro 23:21 "for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and _slumber will clothe them with rags_" ?

I say, let's not reduce it all to a sound byte, one way or the other.


----------



## JBaldwin

Contra_Mundum said:


> Does anyone think it is wrong for a person to insist on "coming as he is" to make a point?
> 
> I mean, doesn't love and acceptance flow both ways? Would you be willing to come in "community standards" of acceptable dress so as not to make the contented majority in that place wonder why its so important to tear those standards down? Is it really all about "don't judge me!" or could it be about "I think (judge!) you folks to be uptight about dress, and I'm going to pop your bubble. So there."
> 
> I don't expect a church in Southern California to be filled with "overdressed people," but bermuda shirts and shorts might be flat "out of place" in a small town in Iowa.
> 
> And one other thing... keeping James 2 in mind and all, is it in keeping with a heart of love to God to _look like you could care less_ about preparing pretty much *at all* for worship? Like you could barely roll out of bed in time to make it to church before the first hymn was finished?
> 
> I just think there's more to an answer here than a single verse or passage. This is a "wisdom" issue, not a legalistic one. And no, people aren't going to look the same from place to place, nor typically within one congregation. Remember, the James 2 text isn't even dealing with the attitude of the +/- dressed person at all, *but the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and prejudiced treatment.*
> 
> Why should it be odd to expect some connection between one's outward presentation and inward bent? Just because they might not correlate--bad timing (one way) or hypocrisy (the other)? Doesn't this verse imply the legitimate connection sometimes: Pro 23:21 "for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and _slumber will clothe them with rags_" ?
> 
> I say, let's not reduce it all to a sound byte, one way or the other.



I didn't get the idea that anyone on here had reduced it to a "sound byte", and it has already been mentioned that if would be inappropriate to dress so out of place that it would be a distraction either way. In my church, the general attire seems to be nice causal, so that is the way we dress. In my former church, folks dressed up a bit more, so we dressed up a bit more, but in either case, we were careful so as not to be a distraction.


----------



## BertMulder

Pergamum said:


> and you might wear the silliest invention of all time - the tie.



Ok, Pergy, now you've done it!

Ties useless? What else are you gonna use to protect your shirt from spills? Especially those weird people that insist on eating soup between services?

Never understood those people that expose their shirt while eating by taking off their tie, or, horror of horrors - flipping it over their shoulder....


----------



## Contra_Mundum

JB,
I just thought the emphasis in the thread so far had been heavier on the illegitimacy of artificial standards of dress, and I wanted to offer "balance" (as I saw the need--maybe wrongly).

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." And 2 Cor 5:12.

I strongly agree with the principle articulated above. But it also serves as a warning to people. The man who uses the principle to justify his own judgment about the "decent" state of his heart should probably check it more closely.


----------



## Don Kistler

The Scriptures do give us guidelines, though not specifics. And one of those guidelines is that we are to walk worthy of God. And that whatever we do, we are to do it to the glory of God. 

So we can surely ask ourselves, "Is this worthy of God? Is this befitting one who deems it an honor to come into His presence?"

And we can ask ourselves, "Am I wearing this because I want God and everyone else to know how much I think He is worth to me?"

And we can ask ourselves, "Am I dressing this way because I think doing so is more glorifying to God than dressing in another way?"

Those are legitimate questions to ask regarding dress. Vincent Alsop preached a very "relevant" sermon on this topic entitled "The Sinfulness of Strange Apparel" in the 17th century, which gives a theology of fashion and apparel. It can be found in the Soli Deo Gloria book "Practical Godliness" by Vincent Alsop.


----------



## Pilgrim

North Jersey Baptist said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vic,
> 
> I did: HERE
> 
> 
> 
> Bill, he means using the real translation of the Scriptures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Joshua, you mean this....?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Σαμες 2:1-13 Αδελφοι, μοὑ μη. εϝν προσωπολημψι,αις ε·ξετε τη.ν πι,στιν τού κυρι,ου ὴμών ϜΙησού Ξριστού τής δο,χησÅ 2 εϝα.ν γα.ρ ειϝσε,λθῃ ειϝς συναγωγη.ν ὺμών αϝνη.ρ ξρυσοδακτυ,λιος εϝν εϝσθήτι λαμπρᾅ ειϝσε,λθῃ δε. και. πτωξο.ς εϝν ρ`υπαρᾴ εϝσθήτἱ 3 εϝπιβλε,ψητε δε. εϝπι. το.ν φορούντα τη.ν εϝσθήτα τη.ν λαμπρα.ν και. ει·πητὲ συ. κα,θου ω-δε καλώσ῾ και. τῴ πτωξῴ ει·πητὲ συ. στήθι εϝκεί η' κα,θου ὺπο. το. ὺποπο,διο,ν μοὑ 4 ουϝ διεκρι,θητε εϝν ὲαυτοίς και. εϝγε,νεσθε κριται. διαλογισμών πονηρώνÈ 5 ϜΑκου,σατἑ αϝδελφοι, μου αϝγαπητοι,` ουϝξ ὸ θεο.ς εϝχελε,χατο του.ς πτωξου.ς τῴ κο,σμῳ πλουσι,ους εϝν πι,στει και. κληρονο,μους τής βασιλει,ας η-ς εϝπηγγει,λατο τοίς αϝγαπώσιν αυϝτο,νÈ 6 ὺμείς δε. ηϝτιμα,σατε το.ν πτωξο,νÅ ουϝξ οὶ πλου,σιοι καταδυναστευ,ουσιν ὺμών και. αυϝτοι. ε[λκουσιν ὺμάς ειϝς κριτη,ριαÈ 7 ουϝκ αυϝτοι. βλασφημούσιν το. καλο.ν ο·νομα το. εϝπικληθε.ν εϝφϜ ὺμάσÈ 8 Ειϝ με,ντοι νο,μον τελείτε βασιλικο.ν κατα. τη.ν γραφη,ν` αϝγαπη,σεις το.ν πλησι,ον σου ὼς σεαυτο,ν῾ καλώς ποιείτὲ 9 ειϝ δε. προσωπολημπτείτἑ ὰμαρτι,αν εϝργα,ζεσθε εϝλεγξο,μενοι ὺπο. τού νο,μου ὼς παραβα,ταιÅ 10 ο[στις γα.ρ ο[λον το.ν νο,μον τηρη,σῃ πται,σῃ δε. εϝν ὲνι,῾ γε,γονεν πα,ντων ε·νοξοσÅ 11 ὸ γα.ρ ειϝπω,ν` μη. μοιξευ,σῃσ῾ εῖπεν και,` μη. φονευ,σῃσ` ειϝ δε. ουϝ μοιξευ,εις φονευ,εις δε,῾ γε,γονας παραβα,της νο,μουÅ 12 ου[τως λαλείτε και. ου[τως ποιείτε ὼς δια. νο,μου εϝλευθερι,ας με,λλοντες κρι,νεσθαιÅ 13 ὴ γα.ρ κρι,σις αϝνε,λεος τῴ μη. ποιη,σαντι ε·λεοσ` κατακαυξάται ε·λεος κρι,σεωσÅ
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Only if that's the TR.


----------



## Pergamum

BertMUlder: At least ties are better than powdered wigs (my apologies to many an old puritan)..


----------



## py3ak

I used to wear a tie on Sunday evenings but not on Sunday mornings. I saw no reason why the evening service should be less formal than the morning service, and at best it seemed like a thoughtless convention. We should definitely think through these issues, and do so with the understanding that many people do use clothing to make a statement (as in a rather quiet way I used to do); but we should be very hesitant about asserting that a certain style of clothing is _necessarily_ connected with a certain attitude. Businesses do have a dress code, and that might give us some useful information about cultural perceptions of clothing and thus how to be culturally appropriate; but I think we can all agree that coming to worship is not quite the same thing as meeting an attorney or attending a job interview.


----------



## BertMulder

Pergamum said:


> BertMUlder: At least ties are better than powdered wigs (my apologies to many an old puritan)..



Those things: gross!

(without apology to any old puritan)

(hear benchers still wear them in jolly ole england, and hear they stink too!)


----------



## Archlute

Pergamum said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also brought a girl to church one time during college and had someone comment to me that she should really wear a skirt instead of pants. I was infuriated and she never came back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This actually could be the start of another thread, because there is a great difference between wearing "richer or poorer" clothing within the style of one's own sex, and the wearing of clothing that some would see as a mixing of the sexes and pushing cultural androgyny, such as was prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5. It is presented in Scripture as a moral issue, and I do not think that an individual is out of line in holding and voicing this opinion (although more wisdom could possibly have been used regarding the best time to bring this issue up).
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not fond of missiologists, and don't buy most of their culturally relativistic arguments regarding issues such as this. Yes, I have heard them state that what Scripture defines as stealing really isn't stealing if the culture in which it takes place does not see what they are doing as "stealing"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ha...you're kidding right? Pulling out the ol' Deuteronomy 22:5 on me, heh?
> 
> 
> These pants were clearly female pants.
> 
> 
> There needs to be a bit of leeway for culture when it comes to dress. You don't wear a frilly white poet's shirt and a powdered wig do you? You don't wear an inner and outer tunic like Jesus did do you, and you might might have the long untrimmed beard of the Jews. You wear shoes instead of "Jesus sandals" and you might wear the silliest invention of all time - the tie.
> 
> 
> Being smart about cultural differences doesn't mean wholesale relativism...come on now, that should be plain.
> 
> 
> 
> About communal property and stealing: If the tribe owns a land collectively and all the fruit trees on the land, who can pick the fruit? Even stealing, murder, adultery...all these have cultural factors which worsen or lessen the transgression.
Click to expand...


No, I'm not kidding. You mean female pants in the same way as female baseball caps, right...

Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Archlute said:


> Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.



I think you're being a bit unfair to missiologists. I'm the first to argue against cultural relativism, but not all missiologists believe in relativism and many are quite strong theologically. Also, theological individualism and relativism is no worse "on the mission field" than it is in many mainstream denominations, especially with the proliferation of "seeker friendly" mega-churches. I'm sure there are plenty of missiologists who fit your description, but I think you're painting them with too broad a brush. 

I will admit this is a bit personal for me since my father-in-law is a missionary in Europe and has a doctorate in Missions. He is very strong theologically and wages a constant war against sin in his church brought on by years of secularism. It is a tiring struggle, but he is one missiologist who has not caved to cultural relativism...


----------



## tcalbrecht

A5pointer said:


> Wear fitting attire for an appointment with the King of the universe.



White robes?


----------



## BJClark

Contra_Mundum;



> I mean, doesn't love and acceptance flow both ways? Would you be willing to come in "community standards" of acceptable dress so as not to make the contented majority in that place wonder why its so important to tear those standards down? Is it really all about "don't judge me!" or could it be about "I think (judge!) you folks to be uptight about dress, and I'm going to pop your bubble. So there."



I believe someone addressed this, when they were on vacation they didn't take "Formal Church Clothes" with them, yet, they went to a local church for worship and they were dressed 'out of place'.

But I'm curious, what if a homeless person came to your church service, would they be shunned because they were not dressed to your standard? 

How would one be trying to tear YOUR community standards down by wearing what they have to wear and not dressing to meet YOUR standards? How does how they dress take anything away from YOU or YOUR standards? Why do you assume their hearts are such that they are coming to tear this community down, and not merely coming to Worship God?

Why do you seem to assume that just because a person doesn't dress a cetrain way or in certain fashions that their hearts are some how not focused on God? Or that they are some how less holy than someone else who dresses in the latest fashions?

And no Love and accceptance doesn't flow both ways..a Christian is to love even His enemies, and it's not about accepting their sin, but accepting them as God's creation and where God has placed them in this life--rich or poor, fancy clothes or not, healthy or sickly..




> And one other thing... keeping James 2 in mind and all, is it in keeping with a heart of love to God to _look like you could care less_ about preparing pretty much *at all* for worship? Like you could barely roll out of bed in time to make it to church before the first hymn was finished?



Again, why do you assume the worst of your brethern? Why do you assume that just because they wear a pair of jeans & button up shirt or a polo that they look unkept or as if they just rolled out of bed? I'm sorry but that seems rather disrespectful of you towards them. Shouldn't the most important thing be that their hearts are ready and prepared for worship?



> Remember, the James 2 text isn't even dealing with the attitude of the +/- dressed person at all, *but the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and prejudiced treatment.*



Looking at what you stated in the below quote aren't you doing exactly what is say's not to do in the above quote? It's not about the person who does dress this way or that way, but about the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and their prejudiced treatment of others...



> I mean, doesn't love and acceptance flow both ways? Would you be willing to come in "community standards" of acceptable dress so as not to make the contented majority in that place wonder why its so important to tear those standards down? Is it really all about "don't judge me!" or could it be about "I think (judge!) you folks to be uptight about dress, and I'm going to pop your bubble. So there."



And I'm curious, do people sit in the same pew each week and would they get offended if a new person came to visit the congregation and sat in their pew? Or would they welcome them even if they weren't dressed like everyone else?


----------



## JOwen

Below is an excerpt of a post I sent to our denominational discussion board that dovetails somewhat with our discussion here. 

I would make the distinction between “dressing up” and “dressing appropriately”. I grew up in the Charismatic mainline Churches where Dockers and a golf shirt became the new uniform of the Church. The reasoning was not altogether different from your own, that “God knows my heart, I can't fool Him. Jesus is my Brother, so I don't need to put on my best clothing.” Jesus is our “buddy”, of “friend”, and so “why go to all the fuss of worrying about my clothes?” Little did we know that “dressing down” as a protest of apparent inward hypocrisy, was in fact nothing more than the “new” dressing up. In the local Vineyard Church, if you did not have on the ripped jeans and faded surfing t-shirt on, you were not in the “in crowd” and were probably inwardly power hungry, had something to hide, or a pharisee. Rubbish.

We forget that while Christ is our “Elder Brother”, he is also the Eternal and Everlasting Holy God before who the holy angels shield their faces. He is unapproachable light. All through the Old Testament the priest was to take off his everyday clothing and put on the garments of the priests before he was to enter his duty of worship and the holy place. Now this was part of the Ceremonial Law, and was done away with in the death of our Lord. However the principle behind the action is not removed.1 Pe 2:9 “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:” The principle is still in place to give proper thought as to how we dress on the Lord's day. A suit, whether you are going for an evening to the opera, a 50th wedding anniversary, a funeral, or yes, to meet the Queen, is the culturally accepted norm of respect and formality. Be you a popper or a president.

God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it, and is worthy not only of our inward respect and honour, but our outward as well.
You made a comment that we would never dress up for our brother. I agree. But would you dress up for your 25th wedding anniversary at a fancy restaurant? Would you dress up for the funeral of your best friend? If so, why? It is out of honour and respect. Every Sabbath, we come to the “house of the LORD” to remember the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ in a “formal setting”. This is not private worship in your bedroom, but official public worship of the Triune God. It is not “power” in view or covering up apparent hypocrisy, but “respect” for the uncreated Being who in majesty, grace, honour, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth has granted eternal life to as many as believe. This is why we do not pray with our hands in our pockets, leaning on the pulpit, using street slang in our prayers, and part of the reason we do not worship according to the dictates of our own heart. After all, if God knows the heart, why go to any effort at all in these things? He knows I'm sincere, right? Wrong.
Do a study of the symbolism of clothing in the Bible and you will soon see that what we wear in reference to God is vastly more important than we might think in our anti-authority age. And that is the heart of the matter. In 2000 years of Church history, it is only in our age of anti-authority that people did not want to dress formal. Even the poor old dust covered Puritan farmer had his Sabbath clothes.
If we want to show true humility in what we wear to Church, it would not be a pair of Tommy Hilfiger pants and Abercrombie & Fitch shirt instead of a suit, it would be sackcloth and ashes! I don't think many would want to do that.


Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion (the Church); put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Just some thoughts. Keep thinking!​


----------



## JBaldwin

> How would one be trying to tear YOUR community standards down by wearing what they have to wear and not dressing to meet YOUR standards? How does how they dress take anything away from YOU or YOUR standards? Why do you assume their hearts are such that they are coming to tear this community down, and not merely coming to Worship God?
> 
> Why do you seem to assume that just because a person doesn't dress a cetrain way or in certain fashions that their hearts are some how not focused on God? Or that they are some how less holy than someone else who dresses in the latest fashions?



Thank you, Bobbi, for you comments. 

While I was reading your post some people in my church came to mind. These are dear elderly saints from a nearby nursing home who don their "best" every Sunday. What is their best? For one, it is a wild hat and a bright red coat. Sometimes her stockings are slipping down. Often, part of her breakfast from that morning is on the front of her dress. For another, she pulls out all of her jewelry. Some of it is plastic rings from gum machines that people have given her. Another comes in a shirt and trousers. I'm sure he's had slippers on his feet more than once. He drools. Sometimes, they really smell bad. These folks are poor, they own very little, but every time the doors of the church are open, they are there worshipping with all their hearts. They sing out at the top of their lungs when it's time to sing, they "amen" the sermons. One of them puts me to shame she is so thankful for even the fact that she is able to get out of bed in the morning. 

I can't imagine what our church life would be without these dear saints, and who are we to judge them for their choice of "Sunday best"?


----------



## Archlute

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're being a bit unfair to missiologists. I'm the first to argue against cultural relativism, but not all missiologists believe in relativism and many are quite strong theologically. Also, theological individualism and relativism is no worse "on the mission field" than it is in many mainstream denominations, especially with the proliferation of "seeker friendly" mega-churches. I'm sure there are plenty of missiologists who fit your description, but I think you're painting them with too broad a brush.
> 
> I will admit this is a bit personal for me since my father-in-law is a missionary in Europe and has a doctorate in Missions. He is very strong theologically and wages a constant war against sin in his church brought on by years of secularism. It is a tiring struggle, but he is one missiologist who has not caved to cultural relativism...
Click to expand...


I speak regarding the missiologists whom I have known and engaged in discussion, and the vast majority of missiological journals and materials that I have read. To the men, such as your father, who are of a better persuasion, give my regards. Until I meet/read their likes, however, my opinion of the endeavor as a whole, remains.


----------



## larryjf

I would have to say that it depends on what the motivation of the heart is in what you wear.

When I heard that some did not come to church because they felt like they had to dress up for it, and they didn't have anything to dress up in, i started dressing more casually.

Folks just don't feel welcome in a church of suits when they have jeans and a t-shirt.


----------



## tcalbrecht

A5pointer said:


> Ever give any thought to the specific prescription for priestly clothes? *Just think it is a way for us to set ourselves peculiar and set apart to bring glory to the King. *The line between the secular culture we live in and the church is getting so blurred casual dress just ads to it. Our Arminian friends do it to make sure average Joe isn't uncomfortable and this ideology keeps the Gospel from being proclaimed in the same vain. Our God need be feared, nothing wrong with an unbeliever being uncomfortable, it may be a start.



Suppose I wear a suit to work in the world the other 5/6 days of the week and I work among people who wear suits in their profession. How do I find some other attire to set myself apart from the world on the sabbath?

Does it mean I should rent a tux?


----------



## etexas

tcalbrecht said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever give any thought to the specific prescription for priestly clothes? *Just think it is a way for us to set ourselves peculiar and set apart to bring glory to the King. *The line between the secular culture we live in and the church is getting so blurred casual dress just ads to it. Our Arminian friends do it to make sure average Joe isn't uncomfortable and this ideology keeps the Gospel from being proclaimed in the same vain. Our God need be feared, nothing wrong with an unbeliever being uncomfortable, it may be a start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suppose I wear a suit to work in the world the other 5/6 days of the week and I work among people who wear suits in their profession. How do I find some other attire to set myself apart from the world on the sabbath?
> 
> Does it mean I should rent a tux?
Click to expand...

 Nice!


----------



## tcalbrecht

uberkermit said:


> A few thoughts to consider,
> 
> To those who use the argument 'How would you dress in front of the President or Prime Minister or Queen' let me ask one thing: Why do you create such a dichotomy between meeting the Lord on the Lord's day and meeting the Lord on any other day while in prayer and family worship? Assuming there is no difference (for he is just as much Lord of the universe on Tuesday as he is on the Lord's day) then who are you dressing for on the Lord's day?



The other false dichotomy is between the once in a lifetime opportunity to meet the president (assuming he's not your next door neighbor) and meeting with the King of kings every Sabbath. If I saw the president on a regular basis, attire might not be such an issue. In fact, we have seen photos of the president with his cabinet in very casual attire.

In reality our outward attire is for others or perhaps for ourselves. God have not given me any personal instruction in this regard (outside the modesty prescriptions). I'm free in Christ to dress in any fashion that does not violate my conscience.


----------



## govols

tcalbrecht said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever give any thought to the specific prescription for priestly clothes? *Just think it is a way for us to set ourselves peculiar and set apart to bring glory to the King. *The line between the secular culture we live in and the church is getting so blurred casual dress just ads to it. Our Arminian friends do it to make sure average Joe isn't uncomfortable and this ideology keeps the Gospel from being proclaimed in the same vain. Our God need be feared, nothing wrong with an unbeliever being uncomfortable, it may be a start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suppose I wear a suit to work in the world the other 5/6 days of the week and I work among people who wear suits in their profession. How do I find some other attire to set myself apart from the world on the sabbath?
> 
> Does it mean I should rent a tux?
Click to expand...


Buying one would be cheaper.


----------



## BJClark

larryjf;



> When I heard that some did not come to church because they felt like they had to dress up for it, and they didn't have anything to dress up in, i started dressing more casually.



What exactly are Church clothes, these days?

Most people I know wear the same type of clothing to work that they do to Church, and in order for them to 'dress up' for Church they would pretty much need to wear a formal gown or tux to church, to be considered 'dressed up'.

Most men wear suits to work all week long, so to wear a suit to church is not wearing "church clothes" it's wearing work clothes, and for them it's not really dressing UP in Church clothes.

My grandfather was a farmer so for him, to get dressed up for Church and wear his Sunday best was much different than it is today for most people, and I imagine it's the same for many who work on farms or live in small rural communities...but for those who live in the City or in larger suburbs, the clothes are pretty much the same..


----------



## smhbbag

In practicality, my approach is to be as dressed-up as necessary to avoid having someone say something about it. 

That usually puts me somewhere between wearing khaki shorts and a collared shirt with flip-flops, and khaki pants with a nicer collared shirt, tucked-in with a belt and dress shoes.

I don't really understand all the hubbub about the issue, and so what I wear is mostly aimed at not inciting discussion on it.


----------



## raekwon

smhbbag said:


> In practicality, my approach is to be as dressed-up as necessary to avoid having someone say something about it.
> 
> That usually puts me somewhere between wearing khaki shorts and a collared shirt with flip-flops, and khaki pants with a nicer collared shirt, tucked-in with a belt and dress shoes.
> 
> *I don't really understand all the hubbub about the issue*, and so what I wear is mostly aimed at not inciting discussion on it.



Ditto.


----------



## tcalbrecht

BJClark said:


> What exactly are Church clothes, these days?



I run with bikers often seen wearing stuff like:


----------



## Contra_Mundum

BJClark said:


> what if a homeless person came to your church service, would they be shunned because they were not dressed to your standard?


Not if we were obeying James 2:2-4.


BJClark said:


> How would one be trying to tear YOUR community standards down by wearing what they have to wear and not dressing to meet YOUR standards?


I don't think they would be.


BJClark said:


> How does how they dress take anything away from YOU or YOUR standards?


I assume this "they" is same as the above "they." So its simply an exception, or a challenge to meet the James 2 test.


BJClark said:


> Why do you assume their hearts are such that they are coming to tear this community down, and not merely coming to Worship God?


Again, I assume your "they" is the same as at the beginning of your series. So, this "they" really has nothing whatever to do with the attitude I wrote about in my post.

Obviously we are talking about 2 different kinds of people. You seem to be most interested in defending the kind of person who is poor, hindered, has different standards of propriety, or is just uninformed. But that's not the only situation where people come to church dressed like ragamuffins is it? Can you see how I would want to defend that person (along with you) against a church with a bad attitude on the one hand; but also defend the church, on the other hand, against _people with a bad attitude?_



BJClark said:


> Why do you seem to assume that just because a person doesn't dress a cetrain way or in certain fashions that their hearts are some how not focused on God? Or that they are some how less holy than someone else who dresses in the latest fashions?


Why do you seem to assume that I have a kind of monolithic assessment of other people? Or that my whole judgment of a person's attitude (or sanctity?!) is grounded in their "fashion sense"? Tell me, please, do you think there are people who come to church *daring* anyone to criticize their attire? Using the "God knows my heart" defense? If someone ought to speak to someone else regarding _immodest_ apparel, clearly we are admitting that dress does sometimes make a "statement".



BJClark said:


> And no Love and accceptance doesn't flow both ways..a Christian is to love even His enemies, and it's not about accepting their sin, but accepting them as God's creation and where God has placed them in this life--rich or poor, fancy clothes or not, healthy or sickly..


I'm not really sure what this statement has to do with what I wrote, since I meant to criticize proud, arrogant _Christians_ who demand "love," by which they mean "uncritical acceptance," from the church.




BJClark said:


> And one other thing... keeping James 2 in mind and all, is it in keeping with a heart of love to God to _look like you could care less_ about preparing pretty much *at all* for worship? Like you could barely roll out of bed in time to make it to church before the first hymn was finished?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, why do you assume the worst of your brethern? Why do you assume that just because they wear a pair of jeans & button up shirt or a polo that they look unkept or as if they just rolled out of bed? I'm sorry but that seems rather disrespectful of you towards them. Shouldn't the most important thing be that their hearts are ready and prepared for worship?
Click to expand...

Once again, why do you assume 1) I think anyone who dresses one degree below ME is "unkempt", and 2) that this is my default position for anyone I see disheveled in church? Of course the heart preparation is the vital one. Here's my question: does heart-preparation affect the average person's outward condition?

The person I described is one who says "I love God," and who couldn't care less about preparing outwardly (as well as inwardly) for worship--not in ignorance, but because he doesn't care to--and is contemptuous of the rest of the people who waste precious sleep time on Sunday morning to do so. The "unkempt" person I'm talking about is the one who comes like I said, wearing what he slept in when he got up for church 5 mins ago. Can you give me a good reason to presume his heart is any more ready and prepared for worship than the rest of him?



BJClark said:


> Remember, the James 2 text isn't even dealing with the attitude of the +/- dressed person at all, *but the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and prejudiced treatment.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...aren't you doing exactly what is say's not to do in the above quote? It's not about the person who does dress this way or that way, but about the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and their prejudiced treatment of others...
Click to expand...

Of course I'm doing nothing of the kind. 1) James says not one word about the kind of principled, biblically-informed judgments we _should make_, but rather that our prejudicial *actions* reveal the fact that we are become judges with *evil motives*. 2) An individual who uses James 2 as a "cloak" for bad behavior is as guilty as any church full of prejudice in heart and act.1Pe 2:13 Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 
1Pe 2:14 or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well. 
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 
1Pe 2:16 as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.​Whatever else this passage is saying, it does enjoin the Christian to adopt a submissive, as opposed to proud and belligerent, or proud and indifferent, spirit.



BJClark said:


> And I'm curious, do people sit in the same pew each week and would they get offended if a new person came to visit the congregation and sat in their pew? Or would they welcome them even if they weren't dressed like everyone else?


Thanks for your curiosity. People move around a little bit in our church. And they like to see new people, no matter what they look like, and try to make them feel welcome. If they had nothing to wear beside the clothes on their back, I think I can confidently say that they would probably go home with an armful of wardrobe. Assuming they would take it. Assuming they didn't get offended at us assessing their needs.


At the end of all this, you may continue to judge me as being too judgmental. But the fact remains: there are a couple different kinds of people who come in to church grungy. The person who can't help it; and the person for whom a shower, a shave, and a change of clothes is asking too much. The first type isn't making any demands, and demands shouldn't be made of him. The second type is demanding acceptance of himself, showing his own prejudices; I see no reason to automatically accommodate such a person.


----------



## BJClark

Contra_Mundum;

Dear Sir, I believe I owe you an apology, as I mis-intrepreted what you were saying...I went back and re-read what you had posted on the previous page and seen I had missed one of your other posts..which allowed me to see this one in another light..it actually clarified many things..and I am truly sorry for not taking it within the context of which you posted...and I'd also like to thank you for correcting me...

I should have posted a correction earlier after I read the other post, but got called away from the house doing mom stuff...again, I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you were saying..


----------



## Contra_Mundum

I'm ok, You're OK. Pax, sister.


----------



## etexas

I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday. When it is cooler of course. It would be too hot and itchy now.


----------



## Scott Shahan

Contra_Mundum said:


> BJClark said:
> 
> 
> 
> what if a homeless person came to your church service, would they be shunned because they were not dressed to your standard?
> 
> 
> 
> Not if we were obeying James 2:2-4.
> 
> 
> BJClark said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would one be trying to tear YOUR community standards down by wearing what they have to wear and not dressing to meet YOUR standards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think they would be.I assume this "they" is same as the above "they." So its simply an exception, or a challenge to meet the James 2 test.Again, I assume your "they" is the same as at the beginning of your series. So, this "they" really has nothing whatever to do with the attitude I wrote about in my post.
> 
> Obviously we are talking about 2 different kinds of people. You seem to be most interested in defending the kind of person who is poor, hindered, has different standards of propriety, or is just uninformed. But that's not the only situation where people come to church dressed like ragamuffins is it? Can you see how I would want to defend that person (along with you) against a church with a bad attitude on the one hand; but also defend the church, on the other hand, against _people with a bad attitude?_
> 
> Why do you seem to assume that I have a kind of monolithic assessment of other people? Or that my whole judgment of a person's attitude (or sanctity?!) is grounded in their "fashion sense"? Tell me, please, do you think there are people who come to church *daring* anyone to criticize their attire? Using the "God knows my heart" defense? If someone ought to speak to someone else regarding _immodest_ apparel, clearly we are admitting that dress does sometimes make a "statement".
> 
> I'm not really sure what this statement has to do with what I wrote, since I meant to criticize proud, arrogant _Christians_ who demand "love," by which they mean "uncritical acceptance," from the church.
> 
> 
> Once again, why do you assume 1) I think anyone who dresses one degree below ME is "unkempt", and 2) that this is my default position for anyone I see disheveled in church? Of course the heart preparation is the vital one. Here's my question: does heart-preparation affect the average person's outward condition?
> 
> The person I described is one who says "I love God," and who couldn't care less about preparing outwardly (as well as inwardly) for worship--not in ignorance, but because he doesn't care to--and is contemptuous of the rest of the people who waste precious sleep time on Sunday morning to do so. The "unkempt" person I'm talking about is the one who comes like I said, wearing what he slept in when he got up for church 5 mins ago. Can you give me a good reason to presume his heart is any more ready and prepared for worship than the rest of him?
> 
> 
> 
> BJClark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...aren't you doing exactly what is say's not to do in the above quote? It's not about the person who does dress this way or that way, but about the attitude of the church and their acceptance of all and their prejudiced treatment of others...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course I'm doing nothing of the kind. 1) James says not one word about the kind of principled, biblically-informed judgments we _should make_, but rather that our prejudicial *actions* reveal the fact that we are become judges with *evil motives*. 2) An individual who uses James 2 as a "cloak" for bad behavior is as guilty as any church full of prejudice in heart and act.1Pe 2:13 Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
> 1Pe 2:14 or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
> 1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
> 1Pe 2:16 as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.​Whatever else this passage is saying, it does enjoin the Christian to adopt a submissive, as opposed to proud and belligerent, or proud and indifferent, spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> BJClark said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm curious, do people sit in the same pew each week and would they get offended if a new person came to visit the congregation and sat in their pew? Or would they welcome them even if they weren't dressed like everyone else?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for your curiosity. People move around a little bit in our church. And they like to see new people, no matter what they look like, and try to make them feel welcome. If they had nothing to wear beside the clothes on their back, I think I can confidently say that they would probably go home with an armful of wardrobe. Assuming they would take it. Assuming they didn't get offended at us assessing their needs.
> 
> 
> At the end of all this, you may continue to judge me as being too judgmental. But the fact remains: there are a couple different kinds of people who come in to church grungy. The person who can't help it; and the person for whom a shower, a shave, and a change of clothes is asking too much. The first type isn't making any demands, and demands shouldn't be made of him. The second type is demanding acceptance of himself, showing his own prejudices; I see no reason to automatically accommodate such a person.
Click to expand...



Just wondering were grace fits into your post??? reading this seem rather judgemental and critical.


----------



## Contra_Mundum

Scott Shahan said:


> Just wondering were grace fits into your post??? reading this seem rather judgemental and critical.


Thank you for your critical assessment, Scott.
I'll keep your judgment in mind when making future posts.

It certainly isn't easy to make grace obvious in every post, especially when engaged in a defense.
For my part, I appreciated the grace with which BJ answered my rejoinder.


----------



## nicnap




----------



## raekwon

The claws are comin' out on the PB!


----------



## Scott Shahan

I am just saying that you can't judge a person's heart by their apperance. And that goes both ends of the spectrum (rich or poor). That goes for even the well dressed folks sitting in pews. Just because some guy wears a suit to church doesn't necessarily mean that his heart is right with the Lord. These verse come to mind....

Matthew 23:25 *“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

*Matthew 23:27 *Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness*.


----------



## Herald

Having followed this thread the past few days the one variable no one has been able to take into account is personal knowledge of the individual(s) who are not normative in their dress. By normative I mean those who dress considerably different than the majority of the fellowship. The motivations for individual dress are as varied as the opinions on this board. When dress is provocative or meant to illicit a, "look at me" response, then it is a window into the character of the individual, which is the real problem, not the clothes worn. Some individuals are clueless and simply need a little nudge in the right direction. Others may have valid reasons, such as poverty, that causes them to dress plainly but maybe a bit out of the norm. That should be cause for us to see a different need. We're in a sanitized setting here. We don't see the variables, but they are real.


----------



## Scott Shahan

North Jersey Baptist said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> These are your opinions. Where's the Scripture for it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the key to this discussion. As if "Sunday dress" weren't subjective enough, where in Scripture do we even see the need for this? I certainly agree that looking ragged is inappropriate for church on the grounds that it is not a good witness, but beyond that there is no absolute standard based on what the Bible tells us. Again, I completely understand the "heart issue," but I don't think nice casual vs. business suit reflects a difference in one's walk with Christ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mason, I concur. Those who hold to a strict view of the RPW should concur also. Scripture does not instruct on a Lord's Day dress code, although neat and appropriate is an expression of character, not legalism. Cultural considerations play a great part in determining what to wear.
> 
> Look at James 2:1-13.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *James 2:1-13 * My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If an undo emphasis is placed on outward appearance it can morph into favoritism and partiality. The gap between those with means and the poor can sometimes be wide. Paul condemned the Corinthians for allowing this socio-economic divide to manifest itself in abuse of the Lord's Supper. I choose to dress neatly and normative based on what the rest of my church is able to do.
> 
> There was a church in Florida that my family and I visited a few years back while on vacation. If I mentioned the name everyone on the PB would recognize it. A member of the pastoral staff was on record about wearing a suit or jacket and tie on the Lord's Day. We were on vacation and only had casual attire, but we still wished to worship on the Lord's Day. We attended this church and stood out like a sore thumb. No one greeted us. No one said hello to us. They were downright unfriendly and rude. Was it because of the dress code (spoken or unspoken)? No. It was an elitist attitude that was prevalent in outward appearance. If we place too much emphasis on the externals they will reflect an imbalance with the internals.
Click to expand...


----------



## kvanlaan

> I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday.



Aw Max, please don't go to a Sunday service without a shirt on. It's simply uncivilized (even for an Anglican).


----------



## BlackCalvinist

A5pointer said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, problem if it is the norm for Sunday Best. Is it really like that many places? Where ties and slacks would be unavailable or seem so peculiar that they are not even owned?
Click to expand...




Barnpreacher said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I sure hope I'm misunderstanding some of you guys. Now, granted I'm not saying a church member should come to church with an AC/DC shirt on and shorts, but if a button up shirt and a pair of blue jeans is their Sunday best I sure hope you don't think they fear God less or are "less holy" than those in suits and ties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, problem if it is the norm for Sunday Best. Is it really like that many places? Where ties and slacks would be unavailable or seem so peculiar that they are not even owned?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> I'd say it might be more than we think. If clothes like that are all farmers and ranchers etc. have ever known then owning a suit and tie probably never even crossed their mind. It has nothing to do with reverence or respect.
Click to expand...




Poimen said:


> No matter what we may think is fine or acceptable for worship I hope we would all agree that it is wrong to say that 'it doesn't matter' what you wear to worship. Such an attitude or statement reveals a flippant view of worship that does not accord with the scripture (Hebrews 12:28-29) _regardless_ of whether the one who makes that statement is wearing a suit and tie or the poorest rags.



There were no 'Saturday best' clothes for the congregation of Israel. They came in their regular clothes. 

I would say that one must be mindful of what they were to church as not to be a distraction. 

But there is no mandate for shirt and tie. That's a _western european tradition_. I understand the principle behind it, but it is cultural, not scriptural. Many have already pointed out that the Lord is more concerned with the attitude of the heart than the outward appearance.

That doesn't mean the outward appearance doesn't matter....it *does* mean that putting on a shirt and tie doesn't mean you're anymore reverential than wearing your normal, casual clothes to church. In fact, your 'shirt and tie' could be a sign of religious _pride_ - "Look at me! I'm more reverent than you because *I'm* wearing shirt and tie and you're not!"

Let us not make the mistake of the Pharisees by equating all outward actions done in great amounts with it being indicative of the heart (remember the widow who only gave out of her poverty versus the Pharisees who gave money in great amounts). 

If there are brethren at your church who decide NOT to come 'dressed' as the rest of the congregation, provided what they have on is not blasphemous, bend yourself in Romans 14 love toward them. And if you find yourself unable to do so, take a few moments and do some self-examination about it.

Grace and Peace
Kerry


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

kvanlaan said:


> I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aw Max, please don't go to a Sunday service without a shirt on. It's simply uncivilized (even for an Anglican).
Click to expand...


etexas is now in the PCA, mind you a Gorrilla suit is probably conservative by his standards.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

> God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it



Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?


----------



## Eoghan

I could wear my kilt if it still fitted. Do that in an American church however ...


----------



## nicnap

Contra_Mundum said:


> Scott Shahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering were grace fits into your post??? reading this seem rather judgemental and critical.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your critical assessment, Scott.
> I'll keep your judgment in mind when making future posts.
> 
> It certainly isn't easy to make grace obvious in every post, especially when engaged in a defense.
> For my part, I appreciated the grace with which BJ answered my rejoinder.
Click to expand...


 ...to this:Thank you for your critical assessment, Scott.
I'll keep your judgment in mind when making future posts.


----------



## Jerusalem Blade

I like what Rae said, especially re "culturally appropriate".

Are not our dress styles in truth _period costumes?_ When I lived in Woodstock (NY), if you saw a suit on the street he'd either be a narc, FBI, or a businessman up from the City.

When I lived in Africa (northern Kenya -- among the Sudanese), they thought the western man's costume (suit, tie) the "best dress". I used to wear a nice African shirt when preaching.

I personally don't like the costumes of western business and legal circles; they seem to me the modern equivalent of powdered wigs, leggings, and frills on your shirts. In some churches for a pastor, elder, preacher to get suited up is the appropriate dress, and not to would be jarring to the sensibilities of many. So we should not think only of our preferences, but that of others as well, within reason.

When I go to Immigration and interact with the police over the status of some in my congregation, _there_ I don the western legal costume, for the outward appearance speaks to them.

At our time of worship, if I had my druthers I'd wear new, clean jeans and a _nice_ shirt appropriate to the weather/temperature, but a) my fashion consultant might be disturbed (and I want her heart at rest), and b) the congregation might think it unseemly, so for their sakes I dress up more than that. Though I do remember LadyFlynt's remark about her husband thinking black denims and a good shirt _are_ dress clothes, and I take that to heart!

I *always* wear the "fine linen" of the righteousness of Christ (Rev 19:8; Ps 132:9, 16) to worship, for how should I enter into the presence of His Majesty without these glorious garments? _These_ are no costumes, but the true apparel of the Holy Kingdom.


----------



## etexas

kvanlaan said:


> I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aw Max, please don't go to a Sunday service without a shirt on. It's simply uncivilized (even for an Anglican).
Click to expand...

I am a PCA dude now! That makes it OK!


----------



## etexas

raekwon said:


> The claws are comin' out on the PB!


MEOW!


----------



## redmanca

larryjf said:


> I would have to say that it depends on what the motivation of the heart is in what you wear.



I thought I'd jump in here. I agree with this post, but want to take it another direction than most.

I'm 20, and a college student (go Tigers!). Most times I wear nice jeans and a button down shirt. Sometimes khakis and a button down. But my Dad recently bought me my first sport coat and I love it. I've worn it to Church with a tie and pocket square once, and look forward to wearing it again. 

HOWEVER,

One of the main reasons I like wearing it is because I like to dress up, because I enjoy looking nice. Now the emphasis is on my appearance, concerning how others see/perceive me and my dress. This is clearly a wrong heart motive, and though I am struggling by the grace of God to have that changed, it is difficult.

Is it still right and "necessary" that I wear my best, if my heart motive is more sinful when I do?

Just a question.

Conor.


----------



## raekwon

Is there really something inherently "wrong" or sinful with wanting to look nice, though? I'd say "no, there's not". It's when that (and the opinions of man) is your sole or primary motivation for dressing the way you to that it becomes an issue.


----------



## larryjf

As Christians we are to be dressed in the most gloriously beautiful clothing all the time...Christ Himself.
The earthly clothing that we wear to cover our shame should simply be modest. 

The clothing that we wear should not bring notice to itself, but to our face...which is the housing for our eyes...which is the light of our body (mat 6:22). Christ Himself is the light of the world (Jn 8:12), and we should do everything in our power not to take any focus off of Him and His glory


----------



## Augusta

JOwen said:


> Below is an excerpt of a post I sent to our denominational discussion board that dovetails somewhat with our discussion here.
> 
> I would make the distinction between “dressing up” and “dressing appropriately”. I grew up in the Charismatic mainline Churches where Dockers and a golf shirt became the new uniform of the Church. The reasoning was not altogether different from your own, that “God knows my heart, I can't fool Him. Jesus is my Brother, so I don't need to put on my best clothing.” Jesus is our “buddy”, of “friend”, and so “why go to all the fuss of worrying about my clothes?” Little did we know that “dressing down” as a protest of apparent inward hypocrisy, was in fact nothing more than the “new” dressing up. In the local Vineyard Church, if you did not have on the ripped jeans and faded surfing t-shirt on, you were not in the “in crowd” and were probably inwardly power hungry, had something to hide, or a pharisee. Rubbish.
> 
> We forget that while Christ is our “Elder Brother”, he is also the Eternal and Everlasting Holy God before who the holy angels shield their faces. He is unapproachable light. All through the Old Testament the priest was to take off his everyday clothing and put on the garments of the priests before he was to enter his duty of worship and the holy place. Now this was part of the Ceremonial Law, and was done away with in the death of our Lord. However the principle behind the action is not removed.1 Pe 2:9 “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:” The principle is still in place to give proper thought as to how we dress on the Lord's day. A suit, whether you are going for an evening to the opera, a 50th wedding anniversary, a funeral, or yes, to meet the Queen, is the culturally accepted norm of respect and formality. Be you a popper or a president.
> 
> God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it, and is worthy not only of our inward respect and honour, but our outward as well.
> You made a comment that we would never dress up for our brother. I agree. But would you dress up for your 25th wedding anniversary at a fancy restaurant? Would you dress up for the funeral of your best friend? If so, why? It is out of honour and respect. Every Sabbath, we come to the “house of the LORD” to remember the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ in a “formal setting”. This is not private worship in your bedroom, but official public worship of the Triune God. It is not “power” in view or covering up apparent hypocrisy, but “respect” for the uncreated Being who in majesty, grace, honour, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth has granted eternal life to as many as believe. This is why we do not pray with our hands in our pockets, leaning on the pulpit, using street slang in our prayers, and part of the reason we do not worship according to the dictates of our own heart. After all, if God knows the heart, why go to any effort at all in these things? He knows I'm sincere, right? Wrong.
> Do a study of the symbolism of clothing in the Bible and you will soon see that what we wear in reference to God is vastly more important than we might think in our anti-authority age. And that is the heart of the matter. In 2000 years of Church history, it is only in our age of anti-authority that people did not want to dress formal. Even the poor old dust covered Puritan farmer had his Sabbath clothes.
> If we want to show true humility in what we wear to Church, it would not be a pair of Tommy Hilfiger pants and Abercrombie & Fitch shirt instead of a suit, it would be sackcloth and ashes! I don't think many would want to do that.
> 
> 
> Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion (the Church); put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
> 
> Just some thoughts. Keep thinking!​



Here is the argument ender. It is a heart issue, but it also is a respect issue. What you wear shows your respect. This is why you would dress up for the Queen. Your heart comes through in your dress. Your respect and awe come through in your dress. So you wear the best you have and God knows what you have and he sees your heart. So just wear the best you have.


----------



## larryjf

Should we also put on the best jewelry that we have?

If i were to meet the Queen i would dress however she wanted me to (within reason). I would not simply presume to know how the Queen wanted me to dress, i would find out first.

God has told us how He wants us to dress - modestly. To go beyond that is to presume to know more about God's mind than He has revealed.

When we speak of our clothing showing our heart attitude i have to wonder...perhaps we should be dressed in sackcloth and ash.

God requires modest apparel, gender specific, with women to wear a covering on their head. What man requires is irrelevant.


----------



## servantofmosthigh

redmanca said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the main reasons I like wearing it is because I like to dress up, because I enjoy looking nice. Now the emphasis is on my appearance, concerning how others see/perceive me and my dress. This is clearly a wrong heart motive, and though I am struggling by the grace of God to have that changed, it is difficult. Is it still right and "necessary" that I wear my best, if my heart motive is more sinful when I do? Just a question. Conor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. I remember when I was in college, I noticed that when I made a point in class, professors would ignore me. But when an older person made the same point I made, professors would respect their points. So, I stopped wearing jeans and t-shirts to class and started wearing slacks and buttoned shirts or polo shirts. Personally, I did feel "older" in doing so. And professors also started respecting some of my points compared to when I was wearing jeans & t-shirt.
> 
> So what about worship? Does wearing "jeans & t-shirt" cause us to feel different in worship than wearing something more formal? More importantly, does the difference change our very attitude and posture in worship? If so, why?
> 
> Great discussions by all. I'm truly invigorated by the many contributions from all possible sides of this topic.
Click to expand...


----------



## servantofmosthigh

Don Kistler said:


> Vincent Alsop preached a very "relevant" sermon on this topic entitled "The Sinfulness of Strange Apparel" in the 17th century, which gives a theology of fashion and apparel. It can be found in the Soli Deo Gloria book "Practical Godliness" by Vincent Alsop.



Thanks, Dr. Kistler. What a party-pooper. You just fizzled a lively party. And besides, isn't promoting a book by a Puritan that you, yourself, edited forbidden in this forum?


----------



## kalawine

KMK said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also want to make a qualification, I'd think it would be within the power of the Elders to address any attire that may serve as a great distraction from the Worship of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is why have a stapler handy for any teens who show up with their underwear showing because their pants are too baggy.
Click to expand...


 That's very funny! And I believe that in today's society we can all relate!


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

servantofmosthigh said:


> Don Kistler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vincent Alsop preached a very "relevant" sermon on this topic entitled "The Sinfulness of Strange Apparel" in the 17th century, which gives a theology of fashion and apparel. It can be found in the Soli Deo Gloria book "Practical Godliness" by Vincent Alsop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Dr. Kistler. What a party-pooper. You just fizzled a lively party. And besides, isn't promoting a book by a Puritan that you, yourself, edited forbidden in this forum?
Click to expand...



Now that's funny!.....but funny!


----------



## Pergamum

Archlute said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> This actually could be the start of another thread, because there is a great difference between wearing "richer or poorer" clothing within the style of one's own sex, and the wearing of clothing that some would see as a mixing of the sexes and pushing cultural androgyny, such as was prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5. It is presented in Scripture as a moral issue, and I do not think that an individual is out of line in holding and voicing this opinion (although more wisdom could possibly have been used regarding the best time to bring this issue up).
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not fond of missiologists, and don't buy most of their culturally relativistic arguments regarding issues such as this. Yes, I have heard them state that what Scripture defines as stealing really isn't stealing if the culture in which it takes place does not see what they are doing as "stealing"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha...you're kidding right? Pulling out the ol' Deuteronomy 22:5 on me, heh?
> 
> 
> These pants were clearly female pants.
> 
> 
> There needs to be a bit of leeway for culture when it comes to dress. You don't wear a frilly white poet's shirt and a powdered wig do you? You don't wear an inner and outer tunic like Jesus did do you, and you might might have the long untrimmed beard of the Jews. You wear shoes instead of "Jesus sandals" and you might wear the silliest invention of all time - the tie.
> 
> 
> Being smart about cultural differences doesn't mean wholesale relativism...come on now, that should be plain.
> 
> 
> 
> About communal property and stealing: If the tribe owns a land collectively and all the fruit trees on the land, who can pick the fruit? Even stealing, murder, adultery...all these have cultural factors which worsen or lessen the transgression.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm not kidding. You mean female pants in the same way as female baseball caps, right...
> 
> Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.
Click to expand...


Wow..if you really mean all this and this is not mere hyperbole, then I am very glad you are in the US and are making no plans to cross any cultural boundaries.


----------



## Pergamum

Archlute said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're being a bit unfair to missiologists. I'm the first to argue against cultural relativism, but not all missiologists believe in relativism and many are quite strong theologically. Also, theological individualism and relativism is no worse "on the mission field" than it is in many mainstream denominations, especially with the proliferation of "seeker friendly" mega-churches. I'm sure there are plenty of missiologists who fit your description, but I think you're painting them with too broad a brush.
> 
> I will admit this is a bit personal for me since my father-in-law is a missionary in Europe and has a doctorate in Missions. He is very strong theologically and wages a constant war against sin in his church brought on by years of secularism. It is a tiring struggle, but he is one missiologist who has not caved to cultural relativism...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I speak regarding the missiologists whom I have known and engaged in discussion, and the vast majority of missiological journals and materials that I have read. To the men, such as your father, who are of a better persuasion, give my regards. Until I meet/read their likes, however, my opinion of the endeavor as a whole, remains.
Click to expand...



So, do tell me what journals DO you read?


----------



## Pergamum

etexas said:


> I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday. When it is cooler of course. It would be too hot and itchy now.



As long as you wear a tie with that gorilla outfit.


----------



## Herald

Pergamum said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am thinking of wearing a Gorilla costume to church one Sunday. When it is cooler of course. It would be too hot and itchy now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you wear a tie with that gorilla outfit.
Click to expand...


I like these.


----------



## Archlute

Pergamum said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha...you're kidding right? Pulling out the ol' Deuteronomy 22:5 on me, heh?
> 
> 
> These pants were clearly female pants.
> 
> 
> There needs to be a bit of leeway for culture when it comes to dress. You don't wear a frilly white poet's shirt and a powdered wig do you? You don't wear an inner and outer tunic like Jesus did do you, and you might might have the long untrimmed beard of the Jews. You wear shoes instead of "Jesus sandals" and you might wear the silliest invention of all time - the tie.
> 
> 
> Being smart about cultural differences doesn't mean wholesale relativism...come on now, that should be plain.
> 
> 
> 
> About communal property and stealing: If the tribe owns a land collectively and all the fruit trees on the land, who can pick the fruit? Even stealing, murder, adultery...all these have cultural factors which worsen or lessen the transgression.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm not kidding. You mean female pants in the same way as female baseball caps, right...
> 
> Again, missiologists rely far more on sociological interpretations than any sort of passable exegetical work. Most that I have met are theological relativists, and are quite poorly trained in theology and the languages. I don't think that I will waste time debating the theft issue except to say that the church should ignore the wagging of the missiologist's shaming finger, and instruct pagan cultures on the ethical norms of God's law, whether the culture is African or Western or whatever. I really despise the ecclesiological weakness of the modern evangelical "missions" movement. It is filled with confusion and theological individualism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow..if you really mean all this and this is not mere hyperbole, then I am very glad you are in the US and are making no plans to cross any cultural boundaries.
Click to expand...


Well there's your weakness, you seem to look at culture from a largely theologically neutral perspective, and are therefore a cultural relativist. No missiologist should evaluate a culture apart from the moral law of God, and yet that is exactly what they tend to do.

I could probably say that I am sad to see you working in missions, and would be fine not seeing you become an officer of the church, if you do indeed divorce divine law from cultural evaluations, to include the anthropological issues gender and dress.


----------



## Archlute

Pergamum said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're being a bit unfair to missiologists. I'm the first to argue against cultural relativism, but not all missiologists believe in relativism and many are quite strong theologically. Also, theological individualism and relativism is no worse "on the mission field" than it is in many mainstream denominations, especially with the proliferation of "seeker friendly" mega-churches. I'm sure there are plenty of missiologists who fit your description, but I think you're painting them with too broad a brush.
> 
> I will admit this is a bit personal for me since my father-in-law is a missionary in Europe and has a doctorate in Missions. He is very strong theologically and wages a constant war against sin in his church brought on by years of secularism. It is a tiring struggle, but he is one missiologist who has not caved to cultural relativism...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I speak regarding the missiologists whom I have known and engaged in discussion, and the vast majority of missiological journals and materials that I have read. To the men, such as your father, who are of a better persuasion, give my regards. Until I meet/read their likes, however, my opinion of the endeavor as a whole, remains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So, do tell me what journals DO you read?
Click to expand...


I read enough of them when I attended a broadly evangelical seminary for several years before attending WSC. They had a large missiology department, and a good number of periodicals. I don't remember their titles, and,frankly, I don't consider that a loss. 

For what it's worth, most of the missionaries who came back there to study were radical Arminians, and many of them had no real understanding of the Gospel or of the nature and attributes of God, from the way they spoke, and I surely think that they are doing no good in spreading their erroneous theology among the people with whom they work. I no longer support the work of missions outside of Reformed church bodies for this very reason. You should read up on Machen and Pearle Buck sometime.


----------



## VictorBravo

Missiology is not the topic of this thread.

I missed it straying before, please, everyone, stay on topic.


----------



## Pergamum

Culture is, however, intimately tied into this thread (thus the link to missiology). 

And a good principle is that as long as the culture is not sinning, then your dress and attire should resemble the dress and attire of what a respectable person in your host culture should be. For church this would fit as well. 

(Sidenote on Rick Warren's Hawaiian t-shirts: these t shirts have always been worn on vacations and culturally we associate them with lightheartedness and not reflection... therefore Rick Warren's dress and attire are not sinful but they do not seem to convey the solemnity of a church service).

Dressing demands us to understand the culture in which one is working. i.e. therefore sociology might be a useful tool.



The cultural dress and attire upheld as the norm in many American churches is a 1950's code. Our culture has shifted. Many churches refuse to shift and then ignorantly blame it on upholding the Word of God, when all they are upholding is what was considered "appropriate dress" of a generation or two ago.


----------



## Gloria

Daniel Ritchie said:


> So do you wear and suit and tie for private devotions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would you wear if you were invited to the King/Queen Throne Room of England? Or What would you wear if you were invited to Meet the President of the United States? Your very best formal clothing! Now what should you wear to worship and meet with the King of the Universe? It should be your finest and Best Formal Clothing... We are after all entering into the Throne Room of God.
> 
> So I wear my best suit and tie..
> 
> My child and future children will do the same.. They should not be allowed to dress casual or in any way they want to come to the Throne of Grace... Education of this will start at the youngest age so there will be less of a problem with this when they get older... "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> servantofmosthigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should we dress in our Sunday Best Or in just casual attire for worship service.
> 
> 1. When you worship in God's house on Sunday mornings, do you wear the very best you have for Him like you were attending a wedding, or do you dress casual and comfortable?
> 
> 2. Those with adolescents: do you allow your teenagers to worship God in jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops? Or do you instruct them to dress in their very best?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Good question.


----------



## Nse007

Daniel Ritchie said:


> God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?
Click to expand...


I thought the "wholly other" phrase was coined by Karl Barth.


----------



## Nse007

redmanca said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to say that it depends on what the motivation of the heart is in what you wear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I'd jump in here. I agree with this post, but want to take it another direction than most.
> 
> I'm 20, and a college student (go Tigers!). Most times I wear nice jeans and a button down shirt. Sometimes khakis and a button down. But my Dad recently bought me my first sport coat and I love it. I've worn it to Church with a tie and pocket square once, and look forward to wearing it again.
> 
> HOWEVER,
> 
> One of the main reasons I like wearing it is because I like to dress up, because I enjoy looking nice. Now the emphasis is on my appearance, concerning how others see/perceive me and my dress. This is clearly a wrong heart motive, and though I am struggling by the grace of God to have that changed, it is difficult.
> 
> Is it still right and "necessary" that I wear my best, if my heart motive is more sinful when I do?
> 
> Just a question.
> 
> Conor.
Click to expand...


Conor,

Being an alum of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks I would say that your biggest issues is that you go to the wrong school.


----------



## Justified!

KMK said:


> BTW, if Purpose Driven has taught us anything it is that if we wear something other than a Hawaiian shirt, then we are too stuffy.


----------



## Mushroom

> BTW, if Purpose Driven has taught us anything it is that if we wear something other than a Hawaiian shirt, then we are too stuffy.


At 225 lbs, I'm too stuffy in a Hawaiian or any other kind of shirt.


----------



## DMcFadden

Brad said:


> BTW, if Purpose Driven has taught us anything it is that if we wear something other than a Hawaiian shirt, then we are too stuffy.
> 
> 
> 
> At 225 lbs, I'm too stuffy in a Hawaiian or any other kind of shirt.
Click to expand...


----------



## redmanca

Nse007 said:


> Conor,
> 
> Being an alum of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks I would say that your biggest issues is that you go to the wrong school.



They let your type in here?!

I must be on the wrong board...



Conor


----------



## hollandmin

I understand the respect issue, but in the rural part of the country that I minister in, I'm praising God for bringing them into the service regardless of what they are wearing. Some of the most Godly men I have ever met, come to church in boots, jeans and a Carhart, especially during planting and harvest. I do make it a point to where a jacket and tie when I preach out of respect of the the pulpit from which the word is preached, but those who hear the word are touched whether they are dressed in a suit or wranglers. 

I grew up in a SBC church that required a man to wear a jacket and tie and a woman to were a dress or skirt. I can remember my mother always wearing slacks in protest for the very reason that God looks on the inside not the outside. 

I believe that one of the fastest ways to get people to no longer attend your church is to start dictating their dress (this is not to say that a mini skirt and flip flops are appropriate). My position is, if they are presentable then there is no issue. That being said, I'm not sure that an AC/DC shirt would fly with me. . .  

Blessings,


----------



## twogunfighter

I wear slacks or really nice jeans, a collared shirt and a sport coat. I do this because it is significantly more dressy up than I typically wear. To me it expresses the gravity of the occasion. I could go further and wear a full suit and tie but I feel that culturally I am showing reasonable respect for my King in dressing more formally than I usually do and much more formally than most of my local culture. 

I used to be one of those that wore jeans etc. to make a point about how God looks on the heart etc. The problem is that man looks on the outward appearance. I do not want any of my fellow churchgoers to ever think that I take lightly our time in corporate worship. I also do not want my children to think that Sundays are just another get together with some of our friends. I wear what I do to keep the Sabbath holy. My children never see me wear a sport coat on any other day than Sunday. They know that Sunday is a special day set apart from others in part because it is the day that Daddy gets dressed up. 

Over the 16 years I have been in service we have moved 8 times so we have had to evaluate lots of churches. Both my wife and I have found a good way to evaluate a church's seriousness is by looking at the dress of the congregants. Those churches that revere God not just in talk but in action are often those that dress reverentially. 

I don't really think that God cares particularly what I wear on any given Sunday. He is much more concerned with whether or not I am living righteously. Part of living righteously is wearing clothing that makes the appropriate statement about what we think about worshipping the Most High. Most people that I know of are intentionally making the statement "It does not matter what I wear to church because God accepts me just as I am." I hope my clothes on Sundays are an intentional antithesis to that attitude.


----------



## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?
Click to expand...



Ah, we see a flaw in Van Til's theology. I know this is off the topic, but you all started it and I could not resist.


----------



## Stephen

If the Bible does not command a certain style of dress then one should dress in whatever way that makes them comfortable. I should be able to wear sandals, shorts, and a shirt when I preach.


----------



## raekwon

Stephen said:


> If the Bible does not command a certain style of dress then one should dress in whatever way that makes them comfortable. I should be able to wear sandals, shorts, and a shirt when I preach.



Sooooo . . . what if being nude is what makes you comfortable? 

As was said earlier in the thread, things like cultural propriety and modesty have to be taken into account. (And obviously you're not saying anything other . . . but leaving it at "whatever way makes them comfortable" leaves a LOT of room for sin.)


----------



## Stephen

raekwon said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Bible does not command a certain style of dress then one should dress in whatever way that makes them comfortable. I should be able to wear sandals, shorts, and a shirt when I preach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo . . . what if being nude is what makes you comfortable?
> 
> As was said earlier in the thread, things like cultural propriety and modesty have to be taken into account. (And obviously you're not saying anything other . . . but leaving it at "whatever way makes them comfortable" leaves a LOT of room for sin.)
Click to expand...


I am following the RPW. I find no command in Scripture that tells we what or what not to wear.


----------



## raekwon

Stephen said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Bible does not command a certain style of dress then one should dress in whatever way that makes them comfortable. I should be able to wear sandals, shorts, and a shirt when I preach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo . . . what if being nude is what makes you comfortable?
> 
> As was said earlier in the thread, things like cultural propriety and modesty have to be taken into account. (And obviously you're not saying anything other . . . but leaving it at "whatever way makes them comfortable" leaves a LOT of room for sin.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am following the RPW. I find no command in Scripture that tells we what or what not to wear.
Click to expand...


Awesome. I am totally going to church in my birthday suit next Sunday, and when inevitably asked why, I'm gonna say "the Regulative Principle".

(Negate all of that, and you'll have the truth. )


----------



## Davidius

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God is not our cosmic Big Brother, but “wholly other” as Van Til put it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, we see a flaw in Van Til's theology.
Click to expand...


WHAT?!?!

WHAT?!?!?!!?

TAKE IT BACK!!!!!


----------



## Pergamum

The last 4 times I preached I wore shorts and no shoes. That is because no one had pants and very few had shoes. This was not "my best" but my best was way above their best, and so I strive to fit in.


I hiked 12 hours through a swamp a while ago. The man I was with was a Christian. He carried only his machete and a bundle wrapped in discarded plastic. When we arrived at our destination. I changed my clothes and wore dry clothes, but this man did not. The next day was Sunday and we met to worship. 5 minutes before going to church (a small platform off the ground that was tied together with vines), this man changed out of his mud stained and still wet clothes (which he had slept in) and put in a new ragged t shirt and a new pair of shorts that had less holes. This was his Sunday best.

I stress again that a servant of God should try to fit into a cultures standards of modesty and appropriateness. All Christians should. Imagine if I had carried a suit and tie to this location. Again, cultural sensitivity is a HUGE factor.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Davidius said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, we see a flaw in Van Til's theology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WHAT?!?!
> 
> WHAT?!?!?!!?
> 
> TAKE IT BACK!!!!!
Click to expand...


Dr. Van Till was a fallible man. He was wrong on this...and amillennialism.


----------



## Stephen

Davidius said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I have heard/read both RC Sproul and RJ Rushdoony refute the idea that God is "wholly other", such an idea is not Biblical because if God is "wholly other" how can he reveal himself to man made in his image?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, we see a flaw in Van Til's theology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WHAT?!?!
> 
> WHAT?!?!?!!?
> 
> TAKE IT BACK!!!!!
Click to expand...


What, you do not find the "wholly other" in Van Til's thinking a flaw?


----------



## holyfool33

It doesn't matter to me I came out of Church where I had heard people say wearing a white shirt is more important then a pure heart. SO I prefer casual but it doesnt really matter to me.


----------



## pilgrim3970

I personally don't believe that the meeting the king/queen or president scenario is a good example. I can be dressed in an Armani suit when meeting the people in question yet having nothing but loathing for them in my heart. God, obviously, doesn't look at the outward appearance. All that is required, In my humble opinion, is that all come dressed decently and modestly (and if that is a shirt and pants with fewer holes than their day to day dress, then so be it!). Once you start going beyond that and insisting on a certain dress code, you start moving towards legalism. I don't fault anyone for dressing is jacket and tie or jeans and a shirt. That is a matter of personal preference.

Out of curiousity, do any dress up when involved in family prayer at home? After all, regardless of where we are worshipping are we not in the presence of God?


----------



## pilgrim3970

raekwon said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo . . . what if being nude is what makes you comfortable?
> 
> As was said earlier in the thread, things like cultural propriety and modesty have to be taken into account. (And obviously you're not saying anything other . . . but leaving it at "whatever way makes them comfortable" leaves a LOT of room for sin.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am following the RPW. I find no command in Scripture that tells we what or what not to wear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Awesome. I am totally going to church in my birthday suit next Sunday, and when inevitably asked why, I'm gonna say "the Regulative Principle".
> 
> (Negate all of that, and you'll have the truth. )
Click to expand...


 Now that is funny!


----------

