# Tithing 10% or more for the church ?



## Mayflower (May 3, 2009)

I was wondering how must see the view of 10% tithing for the church.
Many churches stress that emphasis on those 10% or more.
I would like to hear you thoughts about it ?


----------



## chbrooking (May 3, 2009)

I think that if everyone actually gave 10%, pastors might actually receive double honor.

That being said, I think it is somewhat problematic to carry the 10% over directly from the OT. Don't get me wrong, I believe we ought to affirm continuity where possible, unless discontinuity is explicit. However, the details of the tithing regulations are very clearly tied to the theocratic temple and priesthood. I believe they apply, in the sense of general equity. I hesitate to say they are a "guide", since that's a little wishy-washy. I'd rather say that God demands 100%. Give as your faith permits you. And as CS Lewis (I think) said, if it doesn't hurt, it's probably not enough. 

I have heard many in my tradition use the phrase, "God's tithes and our offerings". Their meaning is that 10% is duty. Everything beyond that is gravy, so to speak. Okay. I see their point. I'm just not willing to say I've done my duty when I give 10%. I am but an unprofitable servant. 

It's not a hill I'd die on. As I said, my default position is one of continuity. It's just that when I study the tithe, simply cutting a check for 10% of my salary doesn't equate to what I see in the text.


----------



## OPC'n (May 3, 2009)

Give absolutely as much as you can and no more....that's your tithe.


----------



## Peairtach (May 3, 2009)

I think the tithe is a useful guideline for communicant members' giving to the church. The fact that Abraham gave tithes to Melchisedek when he brought forth bread and wine is repeated in Hebrews, a book which deals with what continues/discontinues in the New Covenant, and also mentions that there remains the keeping of a Sabbath Day for the people of God.

The problem with tithing is that if the church operated properly, the church would have a large role in welfare, which means that poor communicant members would get some of their tithe back. This is one reason that certain tithers deduct the tax they are paying to HEW (Health, Welfare and Education) from their tithe.

Without the tithe we have no guidance from God re giving to the institutional church. Some church members are left feeling guilty after giving 99%, while others don't feel guilty after giving 1%. And if God has left us with no guidance, why shouldn't they?

Like the Sabbath, the tithe was established before Moses.The Sabbath is 1/7 of our time, and in another sense God demands all of our time. The tithe is 1/10 of our cash, and in another sense God demands all of our cash. Alms (e.g. Matthew 5) and special freewill offerings aren't included in the tithe.

A.W.Pink wrote a good booklet on tithing, which convinced me.

Also see "Eight Theses on Tithing" by Rich Lusk at Messiah's Covenant Community Church & Messiah's Ministries - Home.
(Although, I don't agree with Rev. Steve Schlissel's theonomianism or the FV).

Richard.


----------



## jackyond32 (May 3, 2009)

TranZ4MR said:


> Give absolutely as much as you can and no more....that's your tithe.



wow thats good avice! ive struggled with how much to give, but this advice seems really sound.


----------



## WarrenInSC (May 3, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> I think that if everyone actually gave 10%, pastors might actually receive double honor.
> 
> That being said, I think it is somewhat problematic to carry the 10% over directly from the OT. Don't get me wrong, I believe we ought to affirm continuity where possible, unless discontinuity is explicit. However, the details of the tithing regulations are very clearly tied to the theocratic temple and priesthood.



I'm glad Ralph asked. The position of our local PCA church leadership, in writing, is that a "10% tithe of one's income" is to go to the local church - and most importantly (don't know how this translates into a European context with issues of payroll, income tax deductions, health insurance, etc.) - this is meant to be "10% of your gross, not your net" - often with the rhetorical question thrown out: "Do you want the Lord to bless your gross or your net?"

This question has bothered and intrigued me for years. Our desire is to be rich toward the Lord as he has been rich towards us. Our family has spent about 24 years in two different PCA churches, and 7 years in the OPC before that. The first two churches did not explicitly tie the "10% of gross income tithe" to stated church teaching as our most recent one has. They did emphasize consistent sacrificial giving and taught what the OT said about tithes, but did not try to tie it so explicitly to what believers should be admonished to do in the NT. Part of why the question has ‘bothered’ me is that it does not appear that the term ‘tithing’ is used in the NT in the same way as we see in the OT. The Lord made reference to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in doing ‘nit picking’ tithing while neglecting the greater things: 

Matthew 23:23 (New American Standard Bible)
“ 23"(A)Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

Jesus, I believe, is making reference to the OT sacrificial system the Pharisees thought they could earn righteousness under, not necessarily indicating that the OT tithing systems should continue in the NT church any more than he was indicating a continuation of temple sacrifice.

Other than that type of reference, a summary of what I see taught in the NT about the believer’s responsibility in giving is this:
-	The NT church is the new community of faith and worship, replacing the OT Temple/Synagogue community of faith and worship.
-	The primary (not only) recipient of our giving for faith, worship, and charity is to be the NT community of faith – the local church.
-	Our giving to the NT community of faith and worship is to be characterized by being:
1)	Systematic: whenever we receive an ‘increase’ from the Lord, we are to give
2)	Proportional: the more you ‘increase’ the more you give
3)	Heartfelt attitude of thanksgiving and worship: not an obligatory action that ‘makes us right’ or fulfills an obligation with the Lord or the local church
4)	Sacrificial: this is a harder one for those of us living in the abundance of western culture rather than living in a subsistence economy. The best way I’ve been able to view this is that our giving should make a discernable difference in our lifestyle. How is that translated into action? Maybe by deliberately budgeting our giving so that we can only afford older used cars rather than recent models, or can only afford to buy a house that is a significant level below what you could otherwise buy, or maybe rethinking the whole “American Retirement Dream” of 401Ks, IRA’s, and how long we really want to budget for to sit out in the sun in our ‘golden years’ – not eliminating them, but limiting our expectations more? All of the above? Any suggestions?

All that being said, it seems to me that explicitly tying NT teaching about the NT believers giving to the NT Church, to the 10%/Tithe (as in saying a 10% tithe of one's income is meant to be "10% of your gross, not your net" with the "Do you want the Lord to bless your gross or your net?” attitude), is inaccurate and unhelpful. The reasons for that include:

-	it really makes it harder to have a heartfelt attitude of thanksgiving and worship when certain ‘expectations’, just short of being ‘requirements’, are made clear to the congregation by local church leadership.
-	I think there is real economic and intellectual sloppiness of thought in simply asserting that somehow the ‘increases’ mentioned in the OT as the ‘basis’ (in the numerical sense) for tithing automatically translates into the gross paycheck of a NT believer in a US/Western economy. If we do that, we are ignoring huge economic differences between an OT economy that had large ‘barter’ and ‘homemade’ components to it on the one hand, and a modern western economy that is largely a ‘cash’ economy on the other hand. In other words, don’t you think that a large part of the work day and work product of families in the OT was for their housing and clothing? Of course it was – but that part of their economic effort and product was mostly ‘home made’ and ‘bartered’ and shared between folks in the extended family and local community – it was not part of the basis for the ‘tithe’. Yet, in modern US/Western cash economies, these components of our economic life make up a large proportion of what our ‘gross paycheck’ is used for. Comparing the ‘basis’ used for OT tithing to modern gross paychecks I is like comparing apples and …turnips.
-	The OT economy of Israel did not, as far as I can tell, include multiple levels of government grabbing huge proportions of workers income ‘off the top’ (not to mention sales & property taxes, etc.) - thus making the amount of one’s ‘gross income’ something of a joke for so many. If one experiences a 70% tax rate, does one still pay that ‘10% tithe’ based on the gross, not the net, so one’s ‘gross’ will be blessed?
-	Try making a chart sometime with three columns to be filled out, reviewing the different appearances of a tithe in the OT. The three columns would be: the Scripture reference, the ‘basis’ that tithe was computed on, and the frequency of that particular tithe. Then try to tie all that into one clear admonition for NT believers regarding a single ‘tithe’ to the local church.
I do not ever want to take away one iota of the Lord’s word to us as NT believers. Neither do I want to add to it. Therefore, I can’t see that the “10% of gross income” definition of tithing for NT believers is accurate or helpful.

Systematic, proportional, sacrificial, heartfelt giving is what I want to practice, and see the church teach. What that amount will be for each individual and family at any given time is not something we should try to define by percentages or amounts.


----------



## Ivan (May 3, 2009)

How does one define "absolutely as much as you can". For some that may be less than 10% and for others for more than 10%. I think that's Sarah's point. However, I believe this can give license to those who will take advantage of it. For me, 10% is a good place to start...and believe me, I'm not rich...monetarily, spiritually in the LORD, yes.


----------



## jackyond32 (May 3, 2009)

the only danger i see in tranz4mer's idea is that because of my sinfulness i'm afraid that i may not spend my money wisely, knowing i would only have to give what's left. having something to built on, like 10%, at least keeps me accountable to be spending wisely and consciously putting money aside to the lord. definitely something to pray about, and it might look different depending on how much someone makes.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (May 3, 2009)

Tithe in effect today?

Is The Tithe For Today?

A question about the tithe

Here are a few other threads on this subject. The "quick search" feature will yield many others.


----------



## jackyond32 (May 3, 2009)

thank you, james.


----------



## bug (May 4, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> That being said, I think it is somewhat problematic to carry the 10% over directly from the OT. Don't get me wrong, I believe we ought to affirm continuity where possible, unless discontinuity is explicit. However, the details of the tithing regulations are very clearly tied to the theocratic temple and priesthood.



I am not so sure about that, didn't Abram tithe to Melchizedek hundreds of years before the law was given? It seems to me that the principle transcends the Mosaic adminsitration. Where, more then one tithe was required annually and other sacrifices were required on top of that. 

Practically 10% should be an amount most people can afford, and is therefore a good guide, however Paul's teaching is clear that we should give has the lord has prospered us, if that is 50% then we shouldn't limit it to 10%, however that is only 1% we shouldn't feel guilty.


----------



## WarrenInSC (May 4, 2009)

bug said:


> chbrooking said:
> 
> 
> > That being said, I think it is somewhat problematic to carry the 10% over directly from the OT. Don't get me wrong, I believe we ought to affirm continuity where possible, unless discontinuity is explicit. However, the details of the tithing regulations are very clearly tied to the theocratic temple and priesthood.
> ...



Jonathan,
Thanks for mentioning the example of Abram and Melchizebdek. It shows precisely how the idea of a tithe changed - the basis and the frequency were different than other examples. In this case, the 'basis' was all he owned - not his 'increase', and the frequency was, well, once. I agree with most of your 2nd paragraph - it's similiar to what I intended in the earlier post. When the word 'tithe' is used as you used it there, it has really lost it's meaning as far as '10%' goes - which was part of my point.


----------



## Glenn Ferrell (May 5, 2009)

bug said:


> I am not so sure about that, didn't Abram tithe to Melchizedek hundreds of years before the law was given?



Was Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek of all he owned, or of his increase, or a tithe on the plunder of war? There was a different practice for gain from war, over the tithe on the increase of the soil and flocks.

By all means give ten percent and more if you are able. Make sure the work of Christ’s church is adequately appreciated and supported.

But, before calling this a requirement, read the links posted above.


----------



## bug (May 5, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> But, before calling this a requirement, read the links posted above.



I'm not sure I did call it a requirement. I called it a principle that transcends the law of Moses, and one that is applied to our situation by Paul.


----------



## WarrenInSC (May 5, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> bug said:
> 
> 
> > I am not so sure about that, didn't Abram tithe to Melchizedek hundreds of years before the law was given?
> ...



*Yes, heartily!*


----------



## puritanpilgrim (May 5, 2009)

I don't believe in a ten percent law, but man I can stop. I was raised that way, and I can't bring myself to consciously give less.


----------



## WarrenInSC (May 5, 2009)

*Once again, 10% of .....*



puritanpilgrim said:


> I don't believe in a ten percent law, but man I can stop. I was raised that way, and I can't bring myself to consciously give less.


.....what?

Comparing the 'increase' from the economics of life in the OT era, to a gross or net paycheck today is the problem - or at least one of them


----------



## Igor (May 5, 2009)

Ivan said:


> How does one define "absolutely as much as you can". For some that may be less than 10% and for others for more than 10%. I think that's Sarah's point. However, I believe this can give license to those who will take advantage of it.


So what? That's THEIR problem before God Who sees their hearts and true intentions. Some will take advantage of grace making it a licence to sin - do we need then to preach salvation by works?
In our congregation I did my best to weed out the very word "tithing" so that nobody ever mention it (though the vast majority of people were raised in a very legalistic atmosphere), and I do not see that it affected the church - we collect as much as wee need, no more, no less.


----------

