# When did Jesus become aware of His Deity?



## ColdSilverMoon (Oct 13, 2008)

I had an interesting discussion with an associate pastor of my church who said he believed Jesus wasn't fully aware of His being God until He went to the cross. The pastor claims Jesus was of course fully God and fully man from conception, but that the human aspect of Christ didn't fully comprehend his own deity from the outset - He may have known it intellectually, but didn't fully grasp it until He willingly went to His death. The pastor bases this idea on what he considers a progression of Christ's self-awareness throughout His life culminating with his prayer in John 17. 

The pastor also says this is important in understanding the tension that exists between His humanity and deity. I haven't really considered this before, and am not sure that I agree or disagree with him. Has anyone else heard this concept before? What are your thoughts on it?


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## Theognome (Oct 13, 2008)

Offhand, I'd say that flies in the face of Matthew 3:13-4:17, John 8:58 and a host of other Gospel passages.

Theognome


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## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 13, 2008)

Playing games with the two natures of Christ is very dangerous business. Even the Westminster Divines were cautious.



> WCF VIII.2,3
> 
> II. The Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance, and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof; yet without sin: being conceived by he power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance. So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion. Which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.
> 
> III. The Lord Jesus in his human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure; having in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell: to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety. Which office he took not unto himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who put all power and judgment into his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same.


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## Herald (Oct 13, 2008)

> Luke 2:49 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"



Mason, your associate pastor is walking on thin ice if he holds to the view that Jesus did not know He was God until the cross.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 13, 2008)

When Jesus was in the Temple at twelve he knew he was in His Father's will. And as Bill mentioned John 8:58 proves the associate Pastor is off. It sounds like he has been taught the Kenosis theory that he totally emptied himself.


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## staythecourse (Oct 13, 2008)

Tell your pastor that when Nathaniel says, "You are the Son of God. You are the King of Israel" Jesus fully understands who He is to the point of being condescending. "You believe because I saw you under the fig tree. I tell you ... etc."

I think I smell the beginnings of open theism creeping into his theology. 

"ABORT! ABORT!" or "REPENT! REPENT!"


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## ColdSilverMoon (Oct 13, 2008)

Just to clarify, I don't think my associate pastor was advocating a Kenosis view or some other view that Christ wasn't aware of His deity at all. His point is that the same way we intellectually know we are saved by grace yet gradually comprehend that grace more and more throughout our lives, so Christ knew He was God but grew in understanding of that throughout His life. I'm not defending him by the way...just throwing the idea out there for discussion.


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## staythecourse (Oct 13, 2008)

I will admit the high priestly prayer is him openly revealing himself at least in that capacity. 

Now, the disciples (and the world) grew in understanding him. Not the Person himself though.


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## kalawine (Oct 13, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> > Luke 2:49 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
> 
> 
> 
> Mason, your associate pastor is walking on thin ice if he holds to the view that Jesus did not know He was God until the cross.



I'd say he fell through the ice!  Sorry...


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## Scott1 (Oct 13, 2008)

We studied this recently in Officer's class.

My best understanding of this deep topic from that and some earlier readings is that Jesus is a divine person who takes on a human nature.

As a divine person, He voluntarily took on a human nature with its limitations. His divine nature is eternal, has always existed, and his human nature began at the incarnation so it is not eternal in the same sense. He is one person with two distinct natures without "conversion, composition, or confusion" as WCF Chapter VIII 2. says and the Council of Chalcedon ruled.

I recommend GI Williamson, The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes, Chapter 8 (which covers Chapter 8 of the Confession) for a fuller understanding of this. The Scripture proofs for the Confession are a good study.

Also, Dr Sproul talks about this in his book, "What is Reformed Theology"?

Since this is a difficult area involving the nature of our Lord and can involve heresy, we need to be very careful handling this mystery.


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## py3ak (Oct 13, 2008)

There are really two questions contained in that. One is a question as to whether Christ progressed in His self-understanding at all. If not, then anything else is plainly speculation that can just be written off as an unfortunate byproduct of (perhaps) the almost adoptionist Christologies of many liberal questers after the historical Jesus.

But after putting that out there for reflection, it bears repeating (as other posters have already said) that Jesus' self-disclosure contains a very full statement of His deity quite a long time before He got anywhere near the cross.


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## TimV (Oct 13, 2008)

Take Luke 2:52



> and Jesus was advancing in wisdom, and in stature, and in favour with God and men.



and compare it with WFC 8



> II. The Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance, and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof



and you can easily see that one of the "common infirmities" is that a person's brain isn't developed fully at 5 years old, so it doesn't violate any central Reformed doctrine to say that He, in His incarnation did grow into a better understanding as he got older. As to when, there isn't a shread of evidence, not even a hint, that it would have taken Him until his 30's to have understood what a man in his teens could have comprehended. 

And like always, there is nothing written in Scripture that has no value. Everything is written for a purpose, and I for one see what PC said above



> When Jesus was in the Temple at twelve he knew he was in His Father's will.



as quite pertinent to the subject of the question of "when". And certainly later, when He told people that whoever had seen Him had seen the father, He meant what He said.


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## Mushroom (Oct 14, 2008)

> Luk 1:39-45 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; (40) And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. (41) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (42) And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (43) And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (44) For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. (45) And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.


John knew of the deity of his Lord while in utero, but Christ Himself did not?


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## Thomas2007 (Oct 14, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> I had an interesting discussion with an associate pastor of my church who said he believed Jesus wasn't fully aware of His being God until He went to the cross. The pastor claims Jesus was of course fully God and fully man from conception, but that the human aspect of Christ didn't fully comprehend his own deity from the outset - He may have known it intellectually, but didn't fully grasp it until He willingly went to His death. The pastor bases this idea on what he considers a progression of Christ's self-awareness throughout His life culminating with his prayer in John 17.
> 
> The pastor also says this is important in understanding the tension that exists between His humanity and deity. I haven't really considered this before, and am not sure that I agree or disagree with him. Has anyone else heard this concept before? What are your thoughts on it?



Hmmm...never heard of this before, but it sounds like an application of the Kenotic Christ thinking.


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## Wannabee (Oct 14, 2008)

It sounds like a legitimate thing to wrestle with. We've all had to work through these things at one point or another. Mason has made it clear that this teacher has not denigrated the union of God and man in Christ, but has simply pondered the timing of Jesus' awareness of His divinity. At what moment did Jesus understand that He is God? It's clear that He did well before the cross, "Before Abraham was, I am." "I and My Father are One."
We can't know of His early childhood. As has been stated, at age 12 He appears to have full knowledge that He must be about His Father's work. It seems a simple answer to a legitimate question. Isn't this the discussion requested in the OP.
If there is concern from Mason, he can pose this to the preacher and see what his reaction is. That should clarify whether or not he's submissive to the perspicuity of Scripture.


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## LawrenceU (Oct 14, 2008)

I've heard this from a few folks who were becoming modern day gnostics.


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## Kevin (Oct 14, 2008)

a lot of RC's believe this. It is a plot device in the Rice novel "out of Egypt".


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## staythecourse (Oct 14, 2008)

One thing that came to mind is Jesus' refusal to be recognized before his time, similar to David's waiting and waiting and waiting even though he had been anointed by Samuel many years before actualization of his crowning.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 14, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> > Luke 2:49 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
> 
> 
> 
> Mason, your associate pastor is walking on thin ice if he holds to the view that Jesus did not know He was God until the cross.



Thin, broken ice, that is. He's already wet. 

As has already been mentioned, this is DANGEROUS territory. If Christ was unclear about his being God prior to the Cross, this makes a grand mess of many of his statements in the Gospels - particularly the High Priestly prayer - how he could pray that without FULLY understanding his divinity is beyond me. Maybe in your assoc. pastor's mind this is sufficiently near in time to be part of "the cross". However, that still leaves a host of other problems.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 14, 2008)

Speaking of the union of divine and human in Christ, I'm thinking I saw recently a couple of puritan (or near post-puritan) works on this... are there new reprints of works (apart from Vermigli's) that I might have seen? I tried RHB but couldn't find what I thought I had seen lately.


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## Ivan (Oct 14, 2008)

kalawine said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > > Luke 2:49 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
> ...



Explains a lot.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Oct 15, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > > Luke 2:49 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
> ...



I just want to clarify again so as not to misrepresent this man's views. He believes Jesus knew in His mind He was God, but didn't fully grasp all of what that entails until the cross. So he wouldn't says Jesus was "unclear" about being God, just that He didn't really comprehend all the ramifications of His deity.

Again, he could be entirely wrong. I just want to make sure I state his position accurately. Thanks for all the great responses so far...


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## py3ak (Oct 15, 2008)

It seems to me that the view is either trivial or troubling. If the statement is simply that Jesus, in His human nature, _grew in understanding_, Turretin tells me that we affirm, but then it seems like an odd way to put it. But questioning the extent of Jesus' understanding or _appreciation_ of this truth until the Crucifixion seems to me to be a view which has no textual or theological basis: as such it could be troubling, either for being a pointless dispute, or because of what is driving this opinion. Views have a source, and this take on things _may_ be symptomatic of a problem.


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## staythecourse (Oct 15, 2008)

*God knows God*

Part of being God is knowing all things, including Himself fully

Therefore



> So he wouldn't says Jesus was "unclear" about being God, just that He didn't really comprehend all the ramifications of His deity.



becomes an equivocation. 

This is an attack on the idea, not you or the pastor. Iron sharpens iron.


For further consideration:

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten God, He has explained Him." An explanation requires knowledge and God knows Himself perfectly and can explain Himself. There is no darkness in God and darkness includes lack of knowledge. Jesus had no darkness in Him including in his knowledge of God - the Three in One


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