# Is college overrated?



## Andres (Jun 26, 2010)

In another thread someone mentioned they thought college was overrated. To find out if this might be true, let us conduct the most scientific measurement available to man - a PB poll. 

I tried my best to think of all the scenarios, but if I left you out, then sorry. Of course, comment to describe your specific situation.


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## Montanablue (Jun 26, 2010)

No. Even if you don't use your education in your job, its enriched you as a person - taught you to think analytically and exposed you to a variety of ideas.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 26, 2010)

Degree in History at a military institution. Working as a Planner/Scheduler on IT and engineering system contracts. Does my degree help? Yes. It taught me how to write and speak in front of people. It taught me how to research, digest, summarize, and present information. It taught me a lot about the military, who is our primary customer.


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## Herald (Jun 26, 2010)

Too bad you didn't provide room for "other." College is the right and necessary step for certain career fields, but it's not for everyone. There are certain career fields that college could prove to be overkill. I'm thinking of the trade fields: carpenters, electricians, mechanics etc. But even if college isn't necessary for these careers, training is. I didn't go to college right out of high school; I enlisted in the Air Force. I was a young man who had no idea what to do with my life. The military provided the perfect venue for me to mature. College came after I finished my enlistment. Was college necessary for my current job? It certainly hasn't hurt but it was not a requirement for employment. I find that the critical thinking skills that were honed while in college prove themselves more in pastoral ministry. 

Even if college is not required for specific career goals, life long learning is. I have met people who are well read and employ acquired knowledge in accordance with common sense. They have proven to be better educated than some folks who possess advanced degrees. However, that is the exception, not the rule. I'm concerned about a backlash against formal education at the college, university, and seminary level. I sure am thankful that my medical doctor developed the necessary skills in his four year degree in order to qualify him for med school.


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## Curt (Jun 26, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> No. Even if you don't use your education in your job, its enriched you as a person - taught you to think analytically and exposed you to a variety of ideas.


 
Agreed, assuming that college actually does this. The problem is that university level training today is just that: training. Colleges have become trade schools and/or Madrasahs for the left. I know that there are exceptions, but this does seem to be the rule.

---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------

BTW, in regard to your last poll option re: college debt. It's hard to accumulate a lot of debt when you pay $50 semester tuition, which I did for my bachelor's degree in Political Science.


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 26, 2010)

I couldn't have my sweet gig if I didn't have my education...


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## Andres (Jun 26, 2010)

Curt said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > No. Even if you don't use your education in your job, its enriched you as a person - taught you to think analytically and exposed you to a variety of ideas.
> ...


 
uh how long ago was that Pastor?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 26, 2010)

I would have added something to the effect of:

Overrated? In terms of opportunities closed to you without a college degree?

A man can earn a living working on a fishing boat in Alaska. An honest and honorable trade. Some of them may conclude that 6th grade is over-rated for his work. I've met kids that have worked on boats all their lives.

I remember my first job at Burger King speaking to a single mother (17) who proudly told me that everything she ever learned she learned on the streets and that school was useless.

One can waste an education and I think many do but I can assure you that I am very grateful for my education and it has opened many doors/options for me that a vast number do not have.


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## Curt (Jun 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> Curt said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...


 
años puede.


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## Montanablue (Jun 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> Curt said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...


 
It still happens. I went to a state university for free and had enough scholarship money to cover my room and board as well as part of my study abroad. If I hadn't studied abroad, I wouldn't have paid anything for my education.


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## Mushroom (Jun 26, 2010)

I had to take the last option, since I have only a few credits under my belt, but that gloating about not having a student loan debt is what's overrated. Given the choice, I know now that'd have been far better to have that student loan combined with the ability to repay it rather than be in my present situation. When I started out working, I found that I could bust my tail working in the trades, make as much money as my educated peers, work outside, and fulfill a perhaps erroneous idea that working with one's hands was somehow more noble and nearer to what the Lord did than sitting at a desk. (Yeah, I had the "My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter" bumper sticker in my charismaniac days) Now I find at age 50 that my tail is busted, I'm not as able to produce as I once was, and the illegal alien invasion has diminished the value of what I do. A college education would have been a far wiser course.

All you young folks, take heed.


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## jawyman (Jun 26, 2010)

I would perhaps say the "college experience" may be overrated, but I believe education can never be overrated. The profession I was in before being called to the ministry demanded a college degree, so again I would not say my degrees are overrated. This is just my worth.


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## JoyFullMom (Jun 26, 2010)

Brad said:


> I had to take the last option, since I have only a few credits under my belt, but that gloating about not having a student loan debt is what's overrated. Given the choice, I know now that'd have been far better to have that student loan combined with the ability to repay it rather than be in my present situation. When I started out working, I found that I could bust my tail working in the trades, make as much money as my educated peers, work outside, and fulfill a perhaps erroneous idea that working with one's hands was somehow more noble and nearer to what the Lord did than sitting at a desk. (Yeah, I had the "My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter" bumper sticker in my charismaniac days) Now I find at age 50 that my tail is busted, I'm not as able to produce as I once was, and the illegal alien invasion has diminished the value of what I do. A college education would have been a far wiser course.
> 
> All you young folks, take heed.


 
Brad, my husband could have written that post.


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## CharlieJ (Jun 26, 2010)

I object to the answer choices in the survey. They assume that vocational/financial rewards exclusively determine the value of education.


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## blhowes (Jun 26, 2010)

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on which side of the fence you're on, to some companies having a college degree is almost essential if you want to progress financially in your career. Having a college education seems to open up doors that often wouldn't be opened without the degree. A poor work ethic can just as quickly close doors, but having the college degree does at least seem to open the doors. Without a degree, a person may get paid thousands of dollars less than a person with a degree, doing the same work. 

One thing college taught me, and I'm sure it can be learned apart from college, is to have confidence to try new things. I struggled and made it through calculus, differential equations, chemistry, english, physics, electronics, racketball, etc. in college. Getting through those things gave me confidence that I could do other things. I've had several interviews where I was asked if I thought I could do the job. I'd never done the work before, but there was a confidence that, if I tried, I could do it. I could confidently answer "Yes" when asked such a question in an interview.


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## Andres (Jun 26, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> I object to the answer choices in the survey. They assume that vocational/financial rewards exclusively determine the value of education.


 
and yet you still voted


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## Claudiu (Jun 26, 2010)

Curt said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > No. Even if you don't use your education in your job, its enriched you as a person - taught you to think analytically and exposed you to a variety of ideas.
> ...


 
I was about to say something along those lines as well. I've seen college change people like Kathleen said but at the same time these days many just go there to get a piece of paper.


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## Rich Koster (Jun 26, 2010)

I have a degree for electronic/electrical technology, but am not working in my career field, due to multiple layoffs, due to diminishing defense/aerospace jobs in area .


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## Scottish Lass (Jun 26, 2010)

My teaching degree was critical when I taught public school; now I use it with homeschooling co-ops and tutoring. Only one co-op requires a degree in field, the others just want any degree.

I went on full scholarship, so no loans here.


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## SemperEruditio (Jun 26, 2010)

Yes, college is overrated but college education is valuable.


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## Hamalas (Jun 26, 2010)

Is there a reason that this poll assumes that college education is for job training? I would highly recommend reading this: The idea of a university defined and ... - Google Books it's only about 30 or 40 pages and is very helpful.


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## Andres (Jun 26, 2010)

Hamalas said:


> Is there a reason that this poll assumes that college education is for job training? I would highly recommend reading this: The idea of a university defined and ... - Google Books it's only about 30 or 40 pages and is very helpful.


 
because I stink at making polls. my bad.


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## torstar (Jun 26, 2010)

Hamalas said:


> Is there a reason that this poll assumes that college education is for job training? I would highly recommend reading this: The idea of a university defined and ... - Google Books it's only about 30 or 40 pages and is very helpful.


 

most of us have to work for a living, we don't have a trust fund set up at our birth, and we aren't going to marry into wealth such that we can spend many years of our adult life with no particular purpose (and rack up $100,000 in expenses)


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## Hamalas (Jun 26, 2010)

Believe me friend, I am in no way encouraging racking up $100,000 + dollars in expenses. As a matter of fact I am currently taking a year off from college right now and working so that I don't have to do precisily that. Nor am I saying that most colleges have the kind of vision layed out in Newman's essay. I guess at the end of the day I'm just questioning the modern paradigm about education. 

It seems to me that when modern men are faced with the questions: 
1) What is education?
2) What is the purpose of education?
3) What is the process of education? (i.e. how does one become educated)
4) What does it mean to be "educated"?

we tend to give radically different answers to these questions than our forefathers have (and specifically our Reformed forefathers). Education has always been a crucial focus of the Reformed world in general and of Presbyterians in particular. My plea is for Presbyterian and Reformed thinkers to once again take the lead in answering the above questions in a more biblical fashion than is the trend today. My thoughts on this issue are far to detailed to go into at this point, but if you want a sense of the kind of thing I think we should be involved in I would encourage you to look at this school: New College Franklin (which was founded by the very Presbyterian and Reformed Dr. George Grant.  )


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## Claudiu (Jun 26, 2010)

Hamalas said:


> Is there a reason that this poll assumes that college education is for job training? I would highly recommend reading this: The idea of a university defined and ... - Google Books it's only about 30 or 40 pages and is very helpful.


 
I had to read this in my English class when we covered what a liberal arts education is and what a university is. Thanks for posting btw.


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## JennyG (Jun 27, 2010)

I like to think my degree taught me the first rudiments of how to think clearly. Not a penny I've ever earned has been directly owing to it. It was when I had sharp and argumentative teenagers bent on testing my beliefs to the limit, that I came fully to appreciate the value of some training in formal logic!


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## Montanablue (Jun 27, 2010)

JennyG said:


> I like to think my degree taught me the first rudiments of how to think clearly. Not a penny I've ever earned has been directly owing to it. It was when I had sharp and argumentative teenagers bent on testing my beliefs to the limit, that I came fully to appreciate the value of some training in formal logic!


 
You sound exactly like my mother


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## JennyG (Jun 27, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> > I like to think my degree taught me the first rudiments of how to think clearly. Not a penny I've ever earned has been directly owing to it. It was when I had sharp and argumentative teenagers bent on testing my beliefs to the limit, that I came fully to appreciate the value of some training in formal logic!
> ...


I'm guessing that when you were a teenager you kept the poor lady on the hop....?


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## Montanablue (Jun 27, 2010)

JennyG said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > JennyG said:
> ...


 
Two things my mother used to say:

1. Paul (my father), you'd better ask Kathleen now, while she still knows everything.

2. I've never been so thankful we were required to take Debate and Rhetoric to get our degrees.


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## he beholds (Jun 27, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> No. Even if you don't use your education in your job, its enriched you as a person - taught you to think analytically and exposed you to a variety of ideas.



I don't think college does that for everyone, nor do I think that going to college is necessary for those things to occur. 



SemperEruditio said:


> Yes, college is overrated but college education is valuable.


 
Can I change it a bit: College is overrated but education is invaluable.


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## Montanablue (Jun 27, 2010)

> I don't think college does that for everyone, nor do I think that going to college is necessary for those things to occur.



Jessie, I do agree with you, however I think in our current culture, college is the most likely way for these things to happen. In past generations, I think things were different. 

I have to say though that going to college was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was an absolutely incredible time in my life and I know most of my friends feel the same. The number of opportunities available is mind boggling.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 27, 2010)

I did not get to be and engineer without the degrees, nor be a minister without them. The degrees were essential for me.

AMR


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## Skyler (Jun 27, 2010)

As a college teacher I can say that my college degree is necessary for my position. 

If it weren't self-serving I would mention that our electrical engineering program is one of the best two-year programs in the country. But, I guess I can't.


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## NB3K (Jun 28, 2010)

I was going to college. I am no longer pursuing my dreams but the will of God for my life. I am studying the Scriptures and the great theologians of yesteryear. I believe the most important job for sheep are searching and seeking the lost sheep. All things outside of this are vain!


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## Tripel (Jun 28, 2010)

I didn't vote, since none of the choices apply.

Let's just get it out of the way that college is not for everyone. There are honorable pursuits with and without college.

That said, college is not overrated. It is a highly valuable venture for several reasons:

1) The training aspect of college is critical for people in certain fields (engineering, medicine, architecture, etc)
2) For everyone else, just having those additional years of education gives you a great foundation upon which to build any career. It is sad how many people in the workplace don't know how to write.
3) College offers a huge variety of things to learn and people to understand. There is much I would never have been exposed to apart from college.
4) If you're like me, you've probably forgotten most of what you learned via lectures and books, but what you didn't forget were the skills required to succeed in those courses (project management, analytical thinking, prioritization, etc)
5) The sheer fun to be had in college is unique. It's an awesome time to build lasting relationships and create lasting memories.
6) Like it or not, the value of that piece of paper saying you are a college graduate is enormous.


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## JBaldwin (Jun 28, 2010)

Let me add that it's the piece of paper and not the education that matters so much. When you go to apply for a job, they don't usually want to how know long you went, what courses you took or how many hours you completed. They want the piece of paper. I'm a classic example of someone who has almost enough college credits for two degrees, but because most of my credits didn't transfer when I moved around (I studied in the USA and France), and I don't have the piece of paper from the USA, it looks like I didn't do the work. 

In short, college didn't help me much when it came to getting a job, and a lot of my first two years in the USA was nothing more than glorified high school courses (I went to a tough high school). These days, at least students can do duel high school/college credits.


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## DMcFadden (Jun 28, 2010)

*Is college overrated? *
* YES, if you are speaking about some vocational fields. Since the 60s we have depreciated the value of a person who does not go to college. Yet, in my last pastorate, one of my deacons made a LOT more than me with his GED. Unless America wants to sede all manufacturing and craftsman roles to Asian outsourcing, we NEED people who can build a house, plumb a drain, build a car, and fix a road.
* It is also a hotbed of pernicious ideas that lead many astray. The vast majority of professors lean so far left, I'm surprised they can still walk down a street without falling.
* And, some of it is overkill. A M.D., for instance could do just as well without learning about Beethoven and Steinbeck in a 6 year program rather than an 8 year one. The savings of 2 years in general ed would help us fix our doc shortage due to baby boomers hitting the system and Obamacare. Let them do lifelong learning to fill in the liberal arts gaps on their "own" time when they are old enough to appreciate the value of what they are learning.

*Some of us LOVE school and do it for a hobby even when we have completed our vocational requirements.*

* My B.A. (Biblical Studies) and M.Div. were necessary for ordination in my denomination.
* The D.Min. satisfied my desire to gain some polish and expertise in the pastoral disciplines.

* My M.A.O.M., MBA certificate, and Certificate in Institutional Development (30 units) were either necessary (or VERY helpful) for my current ministry leading a retirement home where I'm responsible for 165 employees and 350 residents.

As for the current distance PhD work . . . well it is purely for FUN and due to an awareness that . . .
1. Caffeteria seminaries often do a lousy job (e.g., no significant exposure to ANY Reformed theology . . . unless you count Barth).
2. Nothing energizes a guy at the end of a day of bureaucratic leadership/managment like reading a stack of 400 pg. books and writing 30 page papers on each of them  . . . really!

My dad finished 8th grade and my mom (now 90) only had 5 years of education (total)!

One of my biggest mistakes in life was assuming that ALL of my kids "needed" to go to college. Our prodigal dropped out after 1.5 years, and has floundered ever since. Upon reflection, he should have been encouraged to become an electrician or carpenter. His three older siblings have 21 years of college/grad school between them (including 3 masters and one J.D.). It works for them and for our younger daughter (now becoming a sophomore in college), but it did NOT for the younger boy. I failed him and he was ill-served by my push for college as a one-size-fits-all solution.

Is college overrated? YES!!! Is learning overrated? NO!!!


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## Michael (Jun 28, 2010)

Not sure why but upon first glancing at this thread I thought it was titled "Is college football overrated?" I started to type a scorching 4 page reply in Microsoft Word but before I could copy it into the text box here I realized that football was regrettably not the subject. 

After thinking long and hard about the real topic, my response is: yes


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 29, 2010)

I would say NO, it is is not overrated. 

Is all education valuable? Yes. Do you use it all? You forget most of it. But it is all valuable? Just my humble opinion, Short, sweet, and to the point. Yes, it is all valuable.


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## Claudiu (Jun 30, 2010)

And what do you know, on the front page of Yahoo! this morning is this article: Rethinking the value of a college degree - College: Big Investment, Paltry Return - The value of a college degree is a middle-class article of faith. But exclusive new research suggests it may be far less than previously thought.


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## puritan628 (Jul 1, 2010)

I didn't finish high school. I finished 9th grade only, most of which was spent skipping classes. I was a difficult teenager. I did get my GED the same year I would have graduated high school, but I did not go to college until I realized that I was making the maximum income I would ever make as an office professional. Realizing that I would never "get ahead" financially on that income, and with kids to support, I realized I needed the "paper" in order to qualify for more money. Mind you, I knew I had good critical thinking skills, excellent writing skills, and above average customer service skills. But those things didn't bring a higher salary without the degree.

So I went to school. It took me seven years to get a BA, mainly because I kinda dropped out about half-way through, then went back when the student loans began coming due. After that, what did I do? I went back to work as an administrative assistant, but this time I qualified for a higher salary because of my BA.

After a while I decided to get an MA. THAT took me another seven years. I teach at a community college and I teach a subject that transfers to the university; therefore I'm required to have an MA to teach those classes.

I'm now making more than twice the amount I was making before I ever even went to college. It's hard to overestimate the value of being able to live without public assistance. That's the main thing my degrees have done for me, make me self-sufficient, and that through God's grace.

Even though I teach in a "secular" institution, I witness to my students nearly every class period and frequently in one-on-one situations when students follow up things they've heard me say in class and want to know more.

So ... the theories and methods of my discipline I learned through structured education; working with people I learned through life experience and from studying God's Word. 

I see the college education from two angles. It's no more than a piece of paper to many students; to others it's a valuable life and learning experience.


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