# Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry Due out on 5 January, 2007



## R. Scott Clark (Sep 20, 2006)

*Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry Available NOW!*

You can see, pre-order it, and read advance comment about it here. 

Other titles and info here.








rsc

ps. Amazon has an error in their entry that needs to be corrected.

[Edited on 9-21-2006 by R. Scott Clark]


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## RamistThomist (Sep 20, 2006)

Doesn't look too expensive. 

[Edited on 9--20-06 by Draught Horse]


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 20, 2006)

Can I get a signed copy? 
By the way, it comes out about 3 weeks before I'm set to deploy to Afghanistan. Will it get released in time to make it to me before I leave the country?


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 20, 2006)

A bargain at the twice the price! 

rsc



> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Doesn't look too expensive.
> 
> [Edited on 9--20-06 by Draught Horse]


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 20, 2006)

Ben,

It's to be released on 5 January. Deadlines were made for publishers to break them. So far we are about 18 mos late! 

They want to have copies available for the January conference on campus: The Law of God and the Christian.

Let's see how things go as the date gets closer. If we get copies in time, we can get one to you or have one sent, depending on your USA surface address.

A signature will only depress it's market value but we can do that too.

rsc





> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> Can I get a signed copy?
> By the way, it comes out about 3 weeks before I'm set to deploy to Afghanistan. Will it get released in time to make it to me before I leave the country?


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## AdamM (Sep 20, 2006)

Great news!!

Scott, maybe this is a touchy subject, but with all the technological advances in publishing, why is the lead-time so long for these books to be produced after you deliver the finished manuscript?


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 21, 2006)

It's a long story. Publishing has been very frustrating. 

The short story is that there are faster ways to get things published but those ways are not usually very professional. It takes a lot of time to proof-read a text carefully. It's amazing how many errors remain in a MS after it's been proofed several times already. Proof readers, editors, writers, all need a salary. That raises the cost of a book. The distributor has to get paid. etc.

In this life one either spends time or money. The small Christian publishing houses don't have money so they spend time. It takes time to make decent cover art and to advertise etc. It takes time for a MS to get accepted by the publisher. In this case there was significant turnover at the publisher so a new staff came in and had to start from scratch. That set us back many months. 

There are lots of financial constraints. Most of our publishers are really niche houses. There are bigger houses but they're not very interested in this stuff. The margin for error in a small publishing house is less. Then there is the market. There are about 500,000 NAPARC types. Of those, a small percentage probably buys most of the books. That's a small market. The publisher has to sell a certain number of units to recover his costs. Will a book sell enough units? That's a tough question to answer. Of course it won't sell if they don't publish and distribute it, but will it sell? You can see how it works.

The '86 tax act, I'm told reduced the willingness of folks to warehouse books, b/c they must pay taxes on them. Books are selling like crazy but niche publishing has also been squeezed by Barnes and Noble. Shelf space is determined by what BN will stock. Bigger publishers only want to publish what BN will stock. Smaller houses can't even get shelf space. the Christian bookstores are disappearing. Amazon and the like help, but there's no replacement for distribution. People can't buy books they can't find. The smaller houses have weaker distribution. 

Most of these books sell in the thousands at best. That makes them niche books. I saw that Zondervan (one of the bigger Christian publishing houses) says that they've printed (not sold yet) 200K of Grudem's ST. A top selling serious Christian book might sell a quarter of a million copies over several years! Contrast that to the NYT best seller list. 

That's probably more than you want to know.

Best,

rsc




> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> Great news!!
> 
> Scott, maybe this is a touchy subject, but with all the technological advances in publishing, why is the lead-time so long for these books to be produced after you deliver the finished manuscript?


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## RamistThomist (Sep 21, 2006)

> That's probably more than you want to know.



Not at all! (even though i didn't ask). This kind of stuff is strangely fascinating.


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## Civbert (Sep 21, 2006)

When will it be available in e-book format? :O 

That would be most cool!


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## AdamM (Sep 21, 2006)

Dr. Clark, thank you for investing the time to explain a bit about the publishing process to us. I think your reminder about the size of the potential NAPARC market is something that is so easy for folks in our circles to forget. If I recall correctly, the LCMS has about 2.5 million communing members (5x the number of confessional P&R's) and I seem to remember that the WELS has something like 500,000 members these days. 

Thanks again!


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## DaveJes1979 (Sep 21, 2006)

I just broke down and finally shelled out the $75 to get Turretin's Institutes. It is a good thing that Dr. Clark's book isn't coming out for a while, because I think that's all I can spend on theology books until 2007.


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 3, 2006)

Amazon has the cover art up.

Watch out Bill O'Reilly, we're only 344,000 places behind you!

rsc



> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> You can see, pre-order it, and read advance comment about it here.
> 
> Other titles and info here.
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 4, 2006)

Yesterday we were at 430,000 give or take a few thousand. Today we're at #30,429 in Books.

It probably means that 10 people bought the book, but thanks to you ten!

rsc


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## AdamM (Oct 4, 2006)

Scott, thanks for the heads up! The count should now show at least one additional book on order.

Any plans yet for spending all the royalties? Faculty health club? Swimming pool? Company cars?


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm thinking of splurging and buying a Big Mac or maybe even a Ciabatta Burger at Jack-in-the-Box.

s


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## py3ak (Oct 4, 2006)

I thought people got sick and died at Jack-in-the-Box.


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## ReadBavinck (Oct 5, 2006)

Dr. Clark,

A friend asked me: "Are [covenant, justification, and pastoral ministry] three separate topics that the faculty at Westminster are writing about or is there a common theme to the book?"

Any help?

Christopher


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 5, 2006)

We are addressing two closely related themes: covenant and justification. 

We are addressing these themes, however, from the perspective of the departments of theology: exegetical, systematic/historical, and pastoral theology, hence the title. 

rsc



> _Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka_
> Dr. Clark,
> 
> A friend asked me: "Are [covenant, justification, and pastoral ministry] three separate topics that the faculty at Westminster are writing about or is there a common theme to the book?"
> ...


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## DaveJes1979 (Oct 6, 2006)

So, is there a table of contents available for us to preview? I'm curious as to which author wrote which article(s).


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 7, 2006)

1. R. Scott Clark, How We Got Here: A Brief History of the Current Controversy


2. David M. VanDrunen, Where We Are: Justification Under Fire 

Exegetical Theology

3. Iain M. Duguid, Covenant Nomism and the Exile

4. Bryan D. Estelle, The Covenant of Works in Moses and Paul

5. S. M. Baugh, The New Perspective, Mediation, and Justification

Systematic Theology

6. David M. VanDrunen and R. Scott Clark, The Covenant Before the Covenants

7. Michael S. Horton, Which Covenant Theology?

8. R. Scott Clark, Do This and Live: Active Obedience as the Ground of Justification

9. W. Robert Godfrey, Faith Formed By Love or Faith Alone? The Instrument of Justification

10. Hywel R. Jones, Justification by Faith Alone: No Christian Life without It

Pastoral Theology

11. Hywel R. Jones, Preaching Sola Fide Better

12. R. Scott Clark, The Letter and the Spirit: Law and Gospel in Reformed Preaching

13. Julius J. Kim, The Rise of Moralism in Seventeenth-Century Anglican Preaching: A Case Study

14. Dennis E. Johnson, Simul Iustus et Peccator: The Role of Justification in Pastoral Counseling


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## turmeric (Oct 7, 2006)

That looks tempting!


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 27, 2006)

*Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry*

Sorry to re-start this thread, but I think the old one was lost.





Ligon Duncan just sent his comments for the cover:



> With the historic Reformation understanding of the Bible’s teaching on justification, imputation, active obedience, and covenant theology under assault from within sectors of the conservative evangelical and Reformed community, and with postmodern Protestants disinclined to quibble about it, it is to be welcomed that a number of confessional voices are speaking up. Indeed, in the book you are now holding, the faculty of Westminster Seminary in California has produced one of the most scholarly and comprehensive rejoinders to date. With unique insights into the preconditions of this debate in the conservative Reformed community, the authors effectively and exegetically critique “covenantal nomism,” and provide an impressive discussion of key aspects of classical covenant theology, from the standpoint of systematic theology, that puts the larger debate in perspective and vindicates the biblical fidelity of the Reformed confessional view of justification by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. The historical theological overviews in this volume are invaluable. Those who are relatively new to this discussion, and those thoroughly acquainted with it, will alike benefit from the penetrating insights of this timely book.
> 
> J. Ligon Duncan III, PhD
> Senior Minister,
> ...


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 27, 2006)

I merged the new post with the old thread. A large amount of the old ones are still here - they just take a little huntin'.


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 27, 2006)

Thanks!

For those interested: The page proofs have been corrected and the should be ready soon to go to the printer. Dv, we might make the 5 January goal.

rsc

rsc



Me Died Blue said:


> I merged the new post with the old thread. A large amount of the old ones are still here - they just take a little huntin'.


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

Good news on the publishing front.

rsc



R. Scott Clark said:


> You can see, pre-order it, and read advance comment about it here.
> 
> Other titles and info here.
> 
> ...


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## Staphlobob (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> You can see, pre-order it, and read advance comment about it here.
> 
> Other titles and info here.
> 
> ...




Just got my copy of "Modern Reformation" and see a HUGE advertisement for it on the inside cover. I'll be ordering it next week.


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## bookslover (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I saw that Zondervan (one of the bigger Christian publishing houses) says that they've printed (not sold yet) 200K of Grudem's ST.



200,000 copies of a fat systematic theology? That's insane, unless they're planning on using most of that as backstock for the next 30 or 40 years.


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## toddpedlar (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I'm thinking of splurging and buying a Big Mac or maybe even a Ciabatta Burger at Jack-in-the-Box.
> 
> s



Heh. Somehow I figured you to be a 2 x 4, "Animal Style" kind-a guy... (or is tha t Julius Kim instead? )

T


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

I used to big a big fan of In-and-Out but I got food poisoning there (north of Temecula) several years ago and nothing there seems appetizing any more! Somehow this one seems most appropriate: 

rsc



toddpedlar said:


> Heh. Somehow I figured you to be a 2 x 4, "Animal Style" kind-a guy... (or is tha t Julius Kim instead? )
> 
> T


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## toddpedlar (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I used to big a big fan of In-and-Out but I got food poisoning there (north of Temecula) several years ago and nothing there seems appetizing any more! Somehow this one seems most appropriate:
> 
> rsc



Uff da.. yes, that or  ... God be praised for your deliverance


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 30, 2006)

Oh yeah.

rsc


toddpedlar said:


> Uff da.. yes, that or  ... God be praised for your deliverance


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## AV1611 (Dec 30, 2006)

> The New Perspectives on Paul and the Federal Vision have posed grave challenges to the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone and to the covenant theology taught by the Scripture. I am therefore extraordinarily grateful that the faculty of Westminster Seminary California has provided the church with this fine collection of essays. Readers will find in it able, thorough, and biblical responses to the New Perspectives and to the Federal Vision. They will find no ground – exegetical, theological, historical, homiletical – untraversed. Reformed ministers, elders, or students cannot afford to bypass careful study of this volume.
> 
> Guy Prentiss Waters
> Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies
> ...



This sells it to me


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 30, 2006)

*Update*

Elvis is in the building. The books arrived today! The bookstore opens Tuesday, Jan 2. 


760 735 2665 or 760 735 BOOK

The bookstore is supposed to go online soon until then, you can order by email or phone.


rsc


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 30, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> 1. R. Scott Clark, How We Got Here: A Brief History of the Current Controversy
> 
> 
> 2. David M. VanDrunen, Where We Are: Justification Under Fire
> ...


 
Nice.

We need more of those kinds of topics.

I look forward to getting it.


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## Philip A (Jan 17, 2007)

I just got notification from Amazon that my copy shipped today, should be here Friday.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 7, 2007)

It's now available at Reformation Heritage Books too.


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## Poimen (Feb 27, 2007)

Incredible...

http://reformation21.com/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/pm__114/vobId__5046/


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## wsw201 (Feb 27, 2007)

From Reformation21 :



> Here's what Andrew Sandlin says: "The Center for Cultural Leadership announces it will be publishing a symposium in response to Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry: Essays by the Faculty of Westminster Seminary California, P & R Publishing Company, edited by Scott Clark. The provisional title of our symposium is A Faith That Is Never Alone: A Response to the Faculty of Westminster Seminary California, edited by P. Andrew Sandlin. Contributors include John H. Armstrong, John M. Frame, Don Garlington, Mark Horne, P. Andrew Sandlin, and Norman Shepherd. We will post more information here and elsewhere as the project moves forward."
> 
> Kind of reminds one of the good ole days when Gary North was cranking out "responses" to Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia volumes!



This would almost be worth the price of admission!


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## crhoades (Feb 27, 2007)

I actually _liked_ the North responses...


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## RamistThomist (Feb 27, 2007)

I don't know if I would bring up the Gary North reference. While I am not a full-orbed theonomist after North, he did kind of win those debates. Such a debate is won or lost when you can respond to the other sides rebuttal. There was no such response to North. No offers for a public debate. Let that skeleton stay in the closet. This isn't good PR. 

Plus, how many of us are bold enough to take on John Frame, who is contributing to the book? Remember the Frame-Hart debate?

Sorry to derail the thread. I would eventually like to read both books. I am very curious to see what Frame has to say.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 27, 2007)

crhoades said:


> I actually _liked_ the North responses...



It is curious that Theonomy A Reformed Non-Critique went out of print right after North's books went into print.


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## crhoades (Feb 27, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> It is curious that Theonomy A Reformed Non-Critique went out of print right after North's books went into print.


Now, now...we shan't start up a theonomy bru-ha-ha posting storm. Baptism is the flavor of the month for now... ...sides, don't have time to keep up with it anyway...


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## Poimen (Mar 6, 2007)

Nice...

http://www.hornes.org/mark/?p=1082

What was that about taking accusations to the courts of the church before you make them public? Or Matthew 18? Oh right YOU don't have to do that!

And, for the record, I think Dr. Clark firmly believes he is accountable for what he says and does otherwise he wouldn't oppose the Federal Vision and take flack for doing so.


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## Sebastian Heck (May 26, 2007)

*Question about merit in Clark's article*

(I wanted to call this post "the Clark debate", but then I had a strange déjà vu...)

In his excellent and immensely helpful article, "Do This and Live" in _Covenant, Justification & Pastoral Ministry_, Dr. Clark discusses the notion of merit as it relates to justification, particuarly to the active obedience of Christ and the works principle involved. I find this extremely helpful and his distinctions guarded.
However, on p. 256, Clark talks about how the Protestants appropriated (and redefined) the medieval categories of condign and cungruent merit. Then, he says: "They [the Protestants] rejected the notion of congruent merit altogether and said that Jesus alone has condign merit that is imputed to us."

This took me by surprise, and maybe I am simply misunderstanding something. So far, I have thought from my readin that the Protestants did NOT reject the notion of congruent merit, but rather upheld it with respect to the original, prelapsarian situation of the covenant of works (Adam). Was not the prospect of life held out to Adam in the covenant of works a clear case of congruent merit. It certainly wasn't condign merit because Adam owed obedience even without promise or merit at all and could have never offer such perfect obedience that he would merit _in actu_, meaning condign merit. It was merit nonetheless, but according to God's _ex pacto_ promise only.

Does not the rejection of the notion of congruent merit again jeopardize our biblical understanding of the active and meritorious obedience of Christ which - though in Christ's case, it is condign merit - runs parallel to the first Adam's merit which he could have gained, but didn't?

Has anyone else wrestled with this passage in the book? Or can anyone rebuke my rantings? Or will the real Clark please stand up? ;-)


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## R. Scott Clark (Jun 1, 2007)

Sebastian, 

I am not making a global claim. I am making a specific claim about the use of merit after the fall. I think the paragraphs before and after the one in question make that relatively clear. It only becomes difficult when the paragraph in question is isolated.

Here's what I have on my hard drive:



> The Protestants rejected the medieval doctrine of justification through sanctification (or deification), but they did not reject the category of merit. They rejected the notion of congruent merit altogether and they said that Jesus alone has condign merit and that is imputed to us.


The footnote says:


> Pace Peter Lillback, The Binding of God: Calvin’s Role in the Development of Covenant Theology. Texts and Studies in Reformation and Post-Reformation Thought (Grand Rapids and Carlisle: Baker Book House and Paternoster, 2001), which argues that Calvin taught that, under Christ, the law is no longer a harsh taskmaster demanding perfection, but now through faith in the Gospel, the Spirit helping us, we can keep the law in a way that God will accept (ibid., 171). This suggests that Calvin taught a version of congruent merit. Lillback continues this argument in chapter 10, where argues that Calvin appropriated and modified the Franciscan “covenant of acceptance” (facientibus quod in se est, Deus non denegat gratiam) so as to teach that God graciously accepts the works of Christians not merely as a response of gratitude, as Protestantism has traditionally taught (e.g., Heidelberg Catechism 2), but as a part of the way of justification (204). If this interpretation is true, one can only wonder why Calvin complained so vociferously about the Roman doctrine of the congruity of works as taught in session six of the Council of Trent. See C. G. Bretschneider, ed., Corpus Reformatorum (Berlin/Leipzig/Zürich: Schwetschke, 1834–1941), 35.429–86 (hereafter, CR); John Calvin, Selected Works of John Calvin: Tracts and Letters, trans. H. Beveridge, 6 vols. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1983), 3.116–117. See also his rejection of congruent merit in his Articuli a facultate sacrae theologiae parisensi determinati …cum andidoto in CR, 35.12–13; the English text is in, idem, Articles Agreed Upon by the Faculty of Sacred Theology of Paris…with the Antidote, in Selected Works, 1.80–82, where he argues that God accepts only those with perfect righteousness and contrasts the system of condign and congruent merit with doctrine of the “Lutherans” who “place the righteousness of faith in the predicament of a relation, saying that we are righteous merely because God accepts us in Christ.” See also the Canons of Dort, Rejection of Errors, 1.3 and 2.4 in Schaff, Creeds, 3.557, 563. According to Herman Witsius (1636–1708), Christ’s active obedience merited a reward for himself and his elect, by virtue of the covenant of strict justice he made with his Father—Jesus earned his righteousness and ours by works—and by virtue of the condignity, i.e. the inherent worth of his obedience. See Herman Witsius, De oeconomia foederum Dei cum hominibus (Leeuwarden, 1677), 2.3.32–33. Idem, The Economy of the Covenants Between God and Man, trans. William Crookshank (1803; Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 1990), 1.190–192.



As regards pre-lapsarian merit, I agree that it was _de pacto_. I think WCF 7 makes that clear. On reflection, I'm not sure that it is helpful to speak of the prelapsarian merit as congruent. For one thing, congruent merit speaks to the post-lapsarian condition. It assumes sin. It assumes that one has not met the terms of justice. 

Adam, before the fall, (to state the obvious) wasn't sinful. He was finite but finitude isn't sin. Adam was in covenant and God had covenanted to accept and reward Adam's obedience, but that doesn't make Adam's obedience congruent.I think we want to avoid equating "covenant" with "congruent." This is a mistake that some writers have made. 

Our Lord performed covenantal obedience and I'm sure we don't want to speak of our Lord's perfect obedience as having congruent merit. We want to say that it was condign, i.e., it met the terms of justice and was worthy of approval. He earned righteousness. He deserved it. 

Therefore, on analogy, I think we ought not to say that Adam's obedience was or would have been, had he completed the probation, worthy of only congruent merit since that implies that God has to make up by an act of the will, whatever is lacking.

I'm glad that someone is reading the book!

rsc



Sebastian Heck said:


> (I wanted to call this post "the Clark debate", but then I had a strange déjà vu...)
> 
> In his excellent and immensely helpful article, "Do This and Live" in _Covenant, Justification & Pastoral Ministry_, Dr. Clark discusses the notion of merit as it relates to justification, particuarly to the active obedience of Christ and the works principle involved. I find this extremely helpful and his distinctions guarded.
> However, on p. 256, Clark talks about how the Protestants appropriated (and redefined) the medieval categories of condign and cungruent merit. Then, he says: "They [the Protestants] rejected the notion of congruent merit altogether and said that Jesus alone has condign merit that is imputed to us."
> ...


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