# Women Preachers



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm pretty sure it's unbiblical for women to preach or pastor a church. Two verses come to mind about this to support my belief. I know the reformed circles are against it. I have a friend who is all for it, and I could use a help defending my belief in this situation. What do you think?


----------



## doulosChristou (Feb 3, 2005)

Here are some good online articles:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter9.html

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter6.html

http://opc.org/GA/hermeneutics.html

http://www.piney.com/WomenDabney.html


----------



## Scott Bushey (Feb 3, 2005)

http://www.dr-fnlee.org/docs5/we/we.html
http://www.dr-fnlee.org/docs5/wm/wm.html


----------



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Mar 28, 2005)

I just got out of my NT Survey class and my teacher (A member of my PCA church btw) Mentioned that this issue was primogenitor in context and not relevant anymore. I duno if he was supporting it or saying that women use that to justify what they do, but he certainly didn't rebuke it.


----------



## BobVigneault (Mar 28, 2005)

I just got back from New England. If it wasn't for lesbians the United Methodists out there would pretty much have to close their church doors. 

(Ouch, was that too harsh?)


----------



## The Lamb (Mar 28, 2005)

Wow, Bob. Very Harsh. hahahahah


----------



## Batman (Mar 28, 2005)

What do you guys think about a woman teaching an adult Sunday School class?


----------



## SolaScriptura (Mar 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Batman_
> What do you guys think about a woman teaching an adult Sunday School class?



I don't have a problem... as long as it is an adult _women's_ Sunday School class!


----------



## wsw201 (Mar 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Batman_
> ...


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 28, 2005)

Dabney got it right. The hermeneutic that justifies women preaching is a hermeneutic that will overturn all Biblical authority. I see the ordination of women elders and the usurpation of teaching authority as a major step along the road to apostacy, if not already crossing the line. 

On the Sabbath School issue, I have a general objection to the usual practice of Sabbath school in that I believe church teaching should be done by ordained or licensed _men_ and I don't support breaking up the congregation into age or gender groups for class purposes. Catechism class, as historically practiced, is not the same thing as Sabbath school.


----------



## Batman (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm right there with you. My church disagrees, and I cringe a little whenever we have a woman take center stage and teach our Bible Study.


----------



## Archlute (Mar 28, 2005)

Tim, 

Sounds like your prof is blowing hot air to avoid making his position clear. Even if he believes that "this issue was primogenitor in context and not relevant anymore" (which is just a silly and sophistical statement and has no bearing on the real issues) he has yet to clarify the import of Paul's statement in I Tim. 2:13-14, which is the foundation for vv. 11-12. 
Although this may have been a situation unique to that context, Paul's reasoning in v.13 is based off of God's created order, which makes it a universal and timeless truth. 

In the end, the only way to get around Paul's reasoning is to state that he was a woman hater who twisted Scripture to support his own biases (which blasphemes the Holy Spirit who inspired him), or that these passages are uninspired and were written by good men who were captives to their culture's prejudice (which blasphemes the Holy Spirit who inspired them). I have heard both of these arguments made, and they do not impress one with either their credibility or their intelligence.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 28, 2005)

I agree with Andrew. First and foremost, the church should not be divided so much in Bible study times, such as Sabbath School. Secondly, I believe women have no right to teach, pray or do anything in the church service. They are to remain silent and in godly submission. God has decreed that men should be in charge of His Church, and we have no right to question that decision.

The most common argument for having women preachers is that of qualification; but, a simple reading of scripture will show that qualifications have never been a factor for God's greatest servants. Moses couldn't talk well. Paul was a bad public speaker as well. Peter was legalistic. By such a standard, qualified homosexuals or anyone else could become pastors - even pagans (case in point: Joel Osteen).


----------



## pastorway (Mar 28, 2005)

Yes, women are not to be preachers, elders, pastors, or whatever you want to call it. They are not at all ever allowed to teach men _in the church_. But......



> Secondly, I believe women have no right to teach, pray or do anything in the church service. They are to remain silent and in godly submission.



First, the text that refers to silence in context is dealing with the preaching of the Word, nothing more or less. 

Second, you cannot prove this serious a restriction (praying, singing, giving a testimony) from Scripture. As already stated, to "speak" in 1 Cor 11 is to be preaching the Word. 

1 Corinthians 11 gives women the right and expectes of them public praying in the church. 

"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved."

And Ephesians 5 commands the whole church including women to "SPEAK to one another" in the worship of the church by means of singing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

"18And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19*speaking to one another* in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another in the fear of God."

Further, older women are commanded to teach younger women (Titus 2), and this admonition is given in the context of the proper functioning of the church, following the guidelines for elders and deacons. So it is not in any way unBiblical for women to teach other women in the church.

1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, *teachers of good things-- 4that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed*. 

Women preachers? No. But let's not make the role of women in the church more narrow than the Bible does, okay.

Phillip


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 28, 2005)

Do you think it is okay for a woman to lead the congregation in a time of prayer during corporate worship? How about to teach or preach?

That is all my post, in context, referred to. I'm curious if you disagree with those things and on what basis.


----------



## pastorway (Mar 28, 2005)

A woman is free to pray out loud during a prayer time of the church. A woman is also free and indeed expected to teach younger women in the church.

I already dealt with the question about preaching and I laid out Biblical evidence for my position.

Phillip


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 28, 2005)

I have no problem with women teaching women in the Church, and nowhere indicated that in my original post. My exact words were "church service" I believe, I'm sorry if that was too ambiguous.

As far as women leading the congregation in prayer in a Lord's Day corporate worship service, I don't see any Biblical support for that position whatsoever.



> *1 Corinthians 11 gives women the right and expectes of them public praying in the church.
> 
> "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved."*



By that hermeneutic, women are allowed to teach in the corporate worship service as well. It says "every woman who prays _*or*_ prophesies," does it not?




> *And Ephesians 5 commands the whole church including women to "SPEAK to one another" in the worship of the church by means of singing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."
> 
> "18And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another in the fear of God."*



And the context of Ephesians 5:18-19 (and its parallel passage Col. 3:16) is singing in a worship service. We do not pray to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. We sing as a congregation, united in the Spirit of God as one body, through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. To make a connection to prayer through this passage is a huge stretch, in my opinion.

Of this passage, Calvin would agree with me (in that the context is singing to each other with thanks to the Lord, not praying or teaching):

*19. To psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. These are truly pleasant and delightful fruits. The Spirit means "joy in the Holy Ghost," (Romans 14:17) and the exhortation, be ye filled, (ver. 18,) alludes to deep drinking, with which it is indirectly contrasted. Speaking to themselves, is speaking among themselves. Nor does he enjoin them to sing inwardly or alone; for he immediately adds, singing in your hearts; as if he had said, "Let your praises be not merely on the tongue, as hypocrites do, but from the heart." What may be the exact difference between psalms and hymns, or between hymns and songs, it is not easy to determine, though a few remarks on this subject shall be offered on a future occasion. The appellation spiritual, given to these songs, is strikingly appropriate; for the songs most frequently used are almost always on trifling subjects, and very far from being chaste.

20. Giving thanks always. He means that this is a pleasure which ought never to lose its relish; that this is an exercise of which we ought never to weary. Innumerable benefits which we receive from God yield fresh cause of joy and thanksgiving. At the same time, he reminds believers that it will argue ungodly and disgraceful sloth, if they shall not always give thanks, -- if their whole life shall not be spent in the study and exercise of praising God.*


Matthew Henry agrees with me as well, that the context is in no way related to prayer or teaching in Church, but singing as a congregation and living a life of thankfulness to God:

*... the joy of Christians should express itself in songs of praise to their God. In these they should speak to themselves in their assemblies and meetings together, for mutual edification.

4. Thanksgiving is another duty that the apostle exhorts to, v. 20. We are appointed to sing psalms, &c., for the expression of our thankfulness to God; but, though we are not always singing, we should never want a disposition for this duty, as we never want matter for it. We must continue it throughout the whole course of our lives; and we should give thanks for all things; not only for spiritual blessings enjoyed, and eternal ones expected (for what of the former we have in hand, and for what of the other we have in hope), but for temporal mercies too; not only for our comforts, but also for our sanctified afflictions; not only for what immediately concerns ourselves, but for the instances of God's kindness and favour to others also. It is our duty in every thing to give thanks unto God and the Father, to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father in him, in whose name we are to offer up all our prayers, and praises, and spiritual services, that they may be acceptable to God.*


It is a stretch to say this passage in any way makes claim to the approval of women praying or teaching within the Church during a worship service. The clear context is that (1) We are to sing together praise to God with thankfulness in our hearts, and (2) We are to live our lives outside of church with the same spirit of thankfulness in our hearts.

Grace and peace.

[Edited on 3-29-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]

[Edited on 3-29-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


----------



## pastorway (Mar 28, 2005)

Read more carefully please. I did not use Eph 5 to prove praying, but speaking.

I said that your view would not allow women the right to sing, since technically, singing is speaking! Paul wrote, "_speaking_ to one another in Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs....singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord." Singing is a form of speech. So for you to disallow any speech from women would necessarily then mean that they would not be allowed to sing either. So your view defeats itself.

We do need to define prophesying, since women were given instructions on how to do that properly. Philip's daughters in the book of Acts prophesied in the church. So prophesying is not the same as preaching or Philip's daughters would not have been allowed to do it.

Phillip


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 29, 2005)

My opposition to women speaking in church is in the context of leading the congregation in some way, such as leading in prayer or teaching, as my second post clearly points to:



> *Do you think it is okay for a woman to lead the congregation in a time of prayer during corporate worship? How about to teach or preach?*



You were arguing against me as if I was saying that women cannot pray or talk in church at all, when I was clearly arguing against their leadership in a church worship service in regards to teaching and praying. Taking this thread in context (of women leadership in Church), that should have been the obvious interpretation of my post, but I admit it was, unfortunately, somewhat ambiguous.

Please don't jump to conclusions and accuse me of making "the role of women in the church more narrow than the Bible does, okay" when I wasn't doing so in the first place. A simple "Can you clarify what you mean by _________" would've been the more patient and kind way to respond to my original post. I will make sure I extend the same Christian courtesy to you in your posts as well. Assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and accusations without sufficient evidence to do so is not a good witness among brothers in Christ.


----------



## pastorway (Mar 29, 2005)

I apologize if it appears that I assumed anything in the discussion. I was answering your post where you wrote:



> Secondly, I believe women have no right to teach, pray or do anything in the church service. They are to remain silent and in godly submission.



Perhaps the phrase "or do anything in the church service" could have been worded a little more clearly. You seem to have been arguing that women were not allowed to open their mouths at all ( "they are to remain silent" ) in the church service by the way you posted.

Phillip


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Mar 29, 2005)




----------



## pastorway (Mar 29, 2005)




----------

