# Christian in name only



## jgilberAZ (Jun 9, 2013)

I think scripture is clear how we should respond towards unbelievers who sin ... evangelize them.

And, it's clear how we should respond to believers who sin ... rebuke them, and if they persist in sin, avoid them.


But, what do we do about our adult children who claim to be christians but are demonstrating they're not by their lifestyle?

Treat them as believers (as they claim), and avoid them?

Or, treat them as unbelievers (as they clearly are), and continue to engage them and evangelize as opportunities arise?


Confused.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 9, 2013)

Love them.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 9, 2013)

As Jess says, _*and also*_ challenge them with the discrepancy between their lives and the Scriptural standard. After all, they are en route to eternal hell. One must be wise and winsome in doing this, asking the Lord for His Spirit and discernment in touching their hearts.

It is best done in the context of friendly conversation, salted with pointed poignant concise nuggets of spiritual reality.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 9, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> As Jess says, _*and also*_ challenge them with the discrepancy between their lives and the Scriptural standard. After all, they are en route to eternal hell. One must be wise and winsome in doing this, asking the Lord for His Spirit and discernment in touching their hearts.
> 
> It is best done in the context of friendly conversation, salted with pointed poignant concise nuggets of spiritual reality.


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## Peairtach (Jun 9, 2013)

How did our Lord deal with "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". 

He warned and exhorted them in the strongest terms, as He had opportunity.

Remember also that our Lord knew what it was to have close members of his family unconverted, maybe for the 37 or 38 years of His earthly life; and although He may have been heavily involved in raising them, especially if Joseph died early on as many commentators think.



> For neither did his brethren believe in him.(John 7:5)



In this painful reality of unconverted relatives too, we have fellowship with Christ in His sufferings, and He has fellowship with us i.e. He has been through it.



> Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,(Col 1:24, ESV)


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## Alan D. Strange (Jun 9, 2013)

Jeff:

When you say that they claim to be Christians but are not, let me ask you this: is this a claim without any substantiation? Do they, in other words, claim to be Christians, though they are no part of any true gospel preaching church? Do they claim to be Christians though they have no fruit of such whatsoever in their lives?

I ask this, Jeff, not because I disbelieve you (I have no reason to do so), but because such judgment--that someone is not a Christian--does not lie merely wth us personally. What makes you conclude that they are "Christians in name only?" Are they unorthodox in their profession? Are they in a church that does not practice discipline and will not call them to repentance for open impenitent sin? 

I do pray, brother, for you and them, that God would be merciful to them and draw them to Himself.

Peace,
Alan


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## jgilberAZ (Jun 9, 2013)

One doesn't go to church at all. The other goes to a reasonably good church occasionally. 
Both are living with their girlfriends. Neither expresses any desire to live holy lives.
Neither expresses any desire to read God's Word. Neither expresses any desire to be with fellow believers, instead surrounding themselves with unbelievers.

They each made a profession of faith and got baptized in an Arminian church when they were young. The hold to that, and live however they please.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 9, 2013)

jgilberAZ said:


> One doesn't go to church at all. The other goes to a reasonably good church occasionally.
> Both are living with their girlfriends. Neither expresses any desire to live holy lives.
> Neither expresses any desire to read God's Word. Neither expresses any desire to be with fellow believers, instead surrounding themselves with unbelievers.
> 
> They each made a profession of faith and got baptized in an Arminian church when they were young. The hold to that, and live however they please.



When did they stop going to church regularly on the LORD's Day?
When did they start surrounding themselves with unbelievers?
When did they stop reading the God's Word daily?


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## jgilberAZ (Jun 9, 2013)

When they became adults and started iving on their own.


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## Mushroom (Jun 9, 2013)

Are they baptized?

Are they members of a Church? 

If so, where are the shepherds set over them?


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## jgilberAZ (Jun 9, 2013)

They were baptized in a southern baptist "walk the aisle" type church. They are not members of a church.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Jun 9, 2013)

Matthew 18:15 and following tells us how to deal with personal sins against us. We talk to the person one on one to achieve reconciliation. Then if that doesn't work we bring 2 witnesses. If that doesn't work we take it to the church leaders who can administer discipline/excommunication if necessary.

Lifestyles of sin are a different matter though. These need to be dealt with by ministers. Obviously, this implies that such persons are members at a local church. Indeed, if they are outside of the visible church then the Westminster Confession teaches that we should not regard them as Christians (under normal circumstances). A profession of faith is nothing if they are outside of the body of Christ. Anyone in this position should be treated as an unbeliever.


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## Mushroom (Jun 9, 2013)

jgilberAZ said:


> They were baptized in a southern baptist "walk the aisle" type church. They are not members of a church.


So it is typical among Baptists to administer baptism without concurrent admission to Church membership? That's odd.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jun 10, 2013)

Brad said:


> jgilberAZ said:
> 
> 
> > They were baptized in a southern baptist "walk the aisle" type church. They are not members of a church.
> ...



Amongst Non-Reformed Baptists, yes.


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## Peairtach (Jun 10, 2013)

There are two senses in which the words "member" and "membership" are used in this context.

If someone is baptised, then for the Presbyterian he is to that extent at least a member of the Visible Church. He may not yet be saved or even a communicant member, but he has been solemnly admitted to the Visible Church Catholic.

On the other hand a person may not be enrolled into a local Presbyterian congregation and denomination and have subjected himself to the discipline of that congregation that he is yet attending. Such a person is referred to - in Scotland at least - as an "adherent", even although they may be members of the Visible Church by baptism, be communicant members, and even show all the marks of being members of the Invisible Church Catholic.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Mushroom (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, perhaps my experience is limited, but every baptism I've witnessed of a professing believer in a Presbyterian Church was accompanied by membership vows. But this is derailing the thread.

Praying for your situation, Jeff.


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## GoodTreeMinistries.com (Jun 10, 2013)

We are to love and pray for our enemies. I would be surprised if any church had 100 percent membership that was saved. I try to bring God into every conversion somehow and leave people with material or sermons if possible. We are not suppose to judge people outside of our church but to tell them how to be saved. If a person goes to our church like this there should be some sort of church discipline out of love for them. I would pray, plant seeds, and wait for God to give the increase in these cases. I do not believe that their is such a thing as a Carnal Christian. 

Here is my Evangelism page Evangelism Page - Good Tree Ministries (Bearing Good Fruit)
It has links to online gospel messages, books, tracts...etc that can be given out to such people. 

I was a false convert for 10 years. Here is my Testimony: False Convert (Testimony) - YouTube

God used a man named Paul Washer to show me I was a lost product of the Christian Church. I would try to get video. audio, or books from him to them.


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## jgilberAZ (Jun 10, 2013)

Now that you mention it, they were probably added to the membership roll by default when they were baptized in that SBC church.

And, since that church (and most SBC churches, I think) don't remove you from their membership list unless you ask, they are probably still on it.

Since that church never practices church discipline, I doubt there's any reason to try and speak to them about this.

Would that be the biblical thing to do, though? Go to the pastor and ask him to exercise church discipline regarding my children?

I don't believe that would be fruitful. But, if it's the right thing to do, I'll do it.

We have talked with our sons till we're blue in the face. But, have never said 'since you refuse to repent, we're going to bring it before the church.'

This would all be so much easier if they were members of a church that practised church discipline.

Thanks. This has been helpful.

I'm not sure what happens if they refuse to repent and the SBC church refuses to address it. I think at that point we treat them as unbelievers in spite of their claims. ?


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## JimmyH (Jun 10, 2013)

jgilberAZ said:


> One doesn't go to church at all. The other goes to a reasonably good church occasionally.
> Both are living with their girlfriends. Neither expresses any desire to live holy lives.
> Neither expresses any desire to read God's Word. Neither expresses any desire to be with fellow believers, instead surrounding themselves with unbelievers.
> 
> They each made a profession of faith and got baptized in an Arminian church when they were young. The hold to that, and live however they please.


A good friend of mine has a 30 year old son who fits that description in all regards. I mentioned once that I was praying for the son for salvation. My friend replied incredulously that his son was saved. He was baptized and made a profession of faith. I responded as kindly as I could that the young man demonstrates no fruit in his lifestyle, no interest in things above and hasn't darkened the door of a church in a decade. Hence, how can you assert that he is saved?

My friend told me I am "way wrong." He said no one can know or say who is saved but God. I did not pursue the argument. While my friend's argument is true, it is also true that 'by their fruits we shall know them.' In whatever interaction I have with the young man I try to demonstrate Christian charity in the hope that it will attract him to true faith. That and keeping him in my prayers is all that I feel I can do.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 10, 2013)

GoodTreeMinistries.com said:


> We are to love and pray for our enemies. I would be surprised if any church had 100 percent membership that was saved.



I don't believe it was ever implied that churches have 100% membership that is "saved" because (we know that Scripture teaches the contrary) there are going to be wolves among the sheep. 

That said, I do believe that if these adult children were members of the church (prior to becoming adults) and professed Christ (regardless of our interpretation of their profession), then the church where they were members as well as the parents (especially the father) had & have a responsibility that was and is being neglected. 

Although, I reserve the right to be wrong! 

QUESTION: At what point does the father and the church where these men were members "no longer" have any duty to restore these men to Christian fellowship (rather than labeling them as "Christians in name only")? 

It is my understanding that even excommunication has restoration "upon repentance" as its goal. 

We are to love them, not label them.
If you honestly believe God's promise to be God to you "and your children" then the first thing I would recommend is seeking reconciliation in humility. Believe that Christ is bigger than your sin in all of this and their sin as well. *Love them.* And, if you are going to label them, may it be as "children of a believer." They are breaking covenant and need our prayers more than our condemnation. If they continue to live/love the lifestyle described on this thread, their choices have eternal consequences. Yet, Christ saw fit to die for me and you while we were yet His enemies & He loves our children (regardless of their age). 

ing


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## jgilberAZ (Jun 10, 2013)

I fully agree that I have failed in multiple ways concerning the raising of my children. The question at hand, though, is 'how do I relate to them now?'

Specifically, how does 1 Corinthians 5 apply to adult children who profess to be believers, yet live contrary to said profession? Or, does it apply?

While acknowledging how I've failed in my responsibilities in the past, I am trying to understand my responsibilities in the present.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Jun 10, 2013)

You may find this sermon of great comfort and help to you, written with godly parents "afflicted" (as he terms it) with ungodly children largely in mind: Help for Distressed Parents by Cotton Mather - SermonAudio.com


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## Vladimir (Jun 10, 2013)

Solid advice about warning them in love. I would also say use every opportunity to evangelize.


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## GoodTreeMinistries.com (Jun 10, 2013)

Sorry guess I failed to see you were talking about your own kids. Christian or not if they are your kids you are to love them. If you did not raise them right and have changed now talk with them and show them a true repentant heart. Talk to them about your concerns. God saved Paul! If He can save someone who was persecuting Christian then He can save anyone! I will pray for you. God Bless.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 10, 2013)

Departed For a Season - SermonAudio.com


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## SinnerSavedByChrist (Jun 11, 2013)

GoodTreeMinistries.com said:


> Sorry guess I failed to see you were talking about your own kids. Christian or not if they are your kids you are to love them. If you did not raise them right and have changed now talk with them and show them a true repentant heart. Talk to them about your concerns. God saved Paul! If He can save someone who was persecuting Christian then He can save anyone! I will pray for you. God Bless.


O what sweet words Jeremy. I really hope that God would one day grant me kids (I'm single still). But at the same time, I am so depraved that even my best efforts will be infused with much sulphuric smoke. And I hope also to regularly repent before my future wife and children, of my selfishness, anger, pride, irresponsibility and ungodliness. I don't want to put up a "strong look". I hope I can humble myself in that day to show my closest family members, just how broken I am. "I am a great great sinner. But God is a great great Saviour!!"


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## whirlingmerc (Jun 11, 2013)

Like the man who has the demon cast out and the house is swept clean but empty for a time is the person who is Christian in name only

DA Carson has an interesting 'for the love of God' devotional on that


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 11, 2013)

There is a good book called the Almost Christian Discovered that might help a bit. 


Almost Christian Discovered; or, the False Professor Tried and Cast. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library



Grace Gems!



The almost christian discovered : or, the false professor tried and cast



Here is the book in hardcover for pretty cheap.
Amazon.com: Buying Choices: The Almost Christian Discovered (Puritan Writings)





I would suggest you pray a lot and seek The Lord concerning the matter. I believe The Lord will give you wisdom. I would caution that you be very careful at your approach as you don't want to harden them against the Lord. If they were deceived into believing they became a Christian by pronouncement of the authority of the Church and given assurance then you must tread very carefully. It becomes a situation where you will be placed against the Church's pronouncement and you are probably wrong since..... well that might become the argument anyways. 


I would also note that it doesn't appear that Church discipline has been established and that I believe that Church discipline is very necessary before you place a solid judgment of cutting off upon someone. Church pronouncement kind of puts some teeth and a foundation for such a censor or discipline as you are speaking of. If they are disciplined just by you and they don't believe that it is just you will only harden them. After all they were told by the Church they were okay since they believed. At the same time if these are your sons it is important that you not be like Eli and not warn the younger men. 1 Samuel chapter 2. But much care, caution, and patient love ought to be practiced. Nothing harsh or condemning. We are to discern but condemning or putting out of the Church shouldn't be practiced outside of a group of disciplining Elders. 


Have you spoken to the Eldership at your Church about this? I believe that is of utmost importance so that they may pray and help guide you. 


I have a son also living an inappropriate life. I have my Elders and friends patiently praying for us. He was on fire for The Lord at one time as a young teen but.... Sometimes God allows us to falter so that we may love much. I had a praying Mom. God heard her.


Hebrews 11:6 is one of my most favorite passages. 


Heb 11:6    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


I hope that I have given good counsel here. May God grant you wisdom brother.


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## Vladimir (Jun 12, 2013)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I would caution that you be very careful at your approach as you don't want to harden them against the Lord.


Is this really possible? I think that's an issue of either/or, not more/less. The most moral and good unbeliever is still an unbeliever, no matter how "softened towards the Lord" he may seem. I believe you cannot go overboard with your attempts to warn and evangelize someone, provided you do that in love. You may, in fact, be so careful as to miss the opportunity to show them their true sinfulness.

Actually, I just realized that Jeff's problem is probably not how to deal with his kids, but with how to deal with parental guilt. Because, ultimately, what do you do to unbelievers? Love them. That includes sharing the Gospel. And what do you do to believers? Love them, which includes sharing the Gospel! The good news of our salvation do not get less or more important depending on whether you're a mature believer or a pagan who hates God. 
And children who are lost are not a product of bad parenting. The father may be long gone when his kids finally come to faith.


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 12, 2013)

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.


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## ThyWord IsTruth (Jun 15, 2013)

Jeff pray that the Lord give you wisdom in dealing with your son's, that the Lord would draw them to Himself and grant them repentance. Never give up on them and like others have said love them and when the sin is in your face then reprove and rebuke them with the truth of scripture in a compassionate way. Be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. 
I grew up in Arminian churches, said the sinners prayer very young and was a prodigal for years then God brought me back to fellowship then I became an Antinomian/Fatalist for another number of years before the Lord drew me to Himself again. Through it all my parents and family never stopped praying for me (I was involved in motorcycle clubs, drugs, bands, prison etc..). Sometimes God allows His children to wander in the desert for periods in their lives and we do not know why but what we do know is that all that are called will come to Him. But how will they hear without a preacher so Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. 
Pray and continue to plant seeds and be there for them. If they claim to be Christians then point to II Corinthians 13:5 and ask them to examine themselves whether they be in the faith by the scriptures. Ask them if they think they are bearing good fruit....fruits meet for repentance. Tell them if they truly loved their Savior they would obey His commandments. That a faith without works is dead and if they are saved they are saved unto holiness. 
They need to see how Holy God is and see how depraved they are.... until then they will have no need for a savior and until they have a savior they will not live a sanctified life because they are still slaves to sin.


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