# The fruit of Calvinism



## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

From one of those boards that are driving me crazy!

The Fruit of Calvinism
Five point Calvinists, like full strict Arminians, typically bear fruit contrary to the teaching of God's Word. Specifically, it is typical of a five point Calvinist to ignore or at times even oppose evangelism. After all, if all of humanity is either predestined to hell or heaven, and their is nothing anyone can do to switch from one group to the other regardless of their will, then why evangelize? The elect will be saved whether they like it or not, and the non-elect will be doomed whether they want to or not. Historically, some hyper-Calvinists have even gone so far as to object to putting a Gospel verse on a sign, lest one of the non-elect read it and believe, thus thwarting God's plan. Even today, Calvinists can be found fighting against evangelistic crusades and missions.



Secondly, strict Calvinism seems to invariably lead to division, strife and argument. Many Calvinists seem to spend more time arguing with fellow Christians about doctrine than loving and caring for the lost and hurting in the world. They are seeking, it seems, to convert the converted, and have neglected the call of God to missions, evangelism, and practical service. Indeed, Calvinism seems to attract those of an argumentative nature who are often unteachable, legalistic, and dogmatic.
Five point Calvinists tend to speak of love and grace frequently, but display very little of either. Rather than loving and serving the lost and hurting, they are engaged in continual arguing, often dividing the Body of Christ n a legalistic and hurtful manner. To many of them, being what they consider to be right is more important than doing what Jesus commanded, viz., evangelizing the lost and ministering to those in need. I have not infrequently seen rank Calvinists who assert that because God chose some for heaven and others for hell, we cannot know the destiny of babies to die. If they were elect, they are in heaven, if not, hell. Such a belief makes God a monster who eternally tortures innocent children, it removes the hope of consolation from the Gospel, it limits the atoning work of Christ, it resists evangelism, it stirs up argumentation and division and it promotes a small, angry, judgmental God rather than the large hearted God of the Bible.

The Biblical Balance
Like a river flows between two banks, so the truth of God's Word flows between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism. As it has been pointed out, both are true and both are false. Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and herefore He cannot learn anything or be surprised by anything. Thus, he knows, and has known from eternity past, who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. the former are the elect, the latter are non-elect. As D.L. Moody once said, the &quot;whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect&quot;. Every person who is not saved will have only himself to blame; God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to got there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any the credit. Our salvation, from start to finish, is 100% God's work, and is based entirely on the finished work of the cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace, drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us puppets to draw us into His family.

The question of whether or not a Christian can lose or walk away from salvation (Point 5 in both doctrinal systems) is academic. When a person who claims to be a Christian and shows some fruit to that effect turns his back on God and lives the life of a pagan, the Arminian says he was saved and is now not saved, while the Calvinist says that he was either never really saved to start with, or that he is severally backslidden, but still within grace. Ultimately, no one, not even the sinning person, knows the truth-only God does. In a backslidden or sin-filled state, there is no assurance of salvation, no resting in Jesus, no peace of God in the heart. So the sinning person, whether he is actually a Christian or just thinks he might be, needs to repent and get right with God. The true believer in Christ never has to doubt his salvation. He can rest in the perfect assurance that God saved him and will keep him, and nothing will ever separate him from God's love in the time or eternity. We are secure in Christ, kept by the power of His loving grace, forever safe in Jesus.

It is imperative to remember that both Calvinism and Arminianism are systems of theology devised by godly, devout, Bible-believing men in the 1600's. Both systems are based on the Word of God, and both contain essential elements of the truth, but neither can be substituted for reading and believing the Word of God. The Apostolic church knew nothing of either system, they simply believed what God had revealed. The difficulty arises when it seems that some of what God has revealed contradicts something else revealed. How can man be absolutely free and God absolutely sovereign and directive simultaneously? How can salvation be entirely God's work, yet require the cooperation of mere men simultaneously? These are unanswerable questions ultimately. The Bible teaches both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. It teaches what appears to be unconditional perseverance in some places and conditional perseverance n others. These things can never be intellectually reconciled because God is simply too big for us to understand. Both systems of theology emphasize one set of scriptures while either ignoring or drastically twisting and explaining away the others.

We are not called to understand God, only to believe Him. I am a free moral agent, responsible for my own sin, hopelessly lost. Jesus not only died for me, he drew me to Himself with bands of lovingkindness and grace, convicted me of my sin, gave me the power to call Him Lord, and will one day present me faultless before His presence with great joy. I am, by His grace, His child. And yet, I am still fee to walk with Him or not to walk with Him. And what applies to me, applies to every human being. Jesus died for all of us and desires fellowship with all of us. Whosoever will may come and receive of His forgiveness and grace and salvation. Innocent babies who die are safe in heaven. God's election excludes no one; Jesus' atonement includes everyone. As has been pointed out, we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Election is God's side, free will is our side. Someone once said that as we enter life, we see emblazoned over the gateway the words &quot;Whosoever will may come&quot;; then as we enter and look back at the backside of the same gateway, we see inscribed the words &quot;Elect from the foundation of the earth&quot;. Election is God's side of the coin we call salvation, human responsibility is our side.

Rather than interpreting the Bible based on any theological or philosophical structure, it behooves us to simply read and believe the word of God. As we teach the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, verse by verse, in context, we will at times sound like staunch Calvinists, preaching those passages which emphasize God's sovereignty, while at other times we will seem like devout Arminians, as we preach those passages which emphasize responsibility. The key to successful ministry is balance-to stay focused on the Word of God, and not become distracted by the doctrines of men.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 19, 2004)

How can you believe in God without understanding him?


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 19, 2004)

Adam,
Who is the author?


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

His name is Pastor Bob Beeman. 

He runs The Sanctuary Message board. Here is his bio:

First Name :: Bob
Last Name :: Beeman
Age :: 52
Location :: Nashville, Tennessee USA
Occupation :: Pastor

Hobbies :: Music (that goes without saying), friends, traveling, and pictures (I have hundreds of pictures of friends and family on the walls in my home). I also collect small porcelain churches.

Personal Bio :: I am the Founder/Pastor of Sanctuary International - for 18 years now! We are very excited that you have joined us today on the message board - and hope you will return many times.

He is also the pastor who LOVED the movie &quot;Saved&quot; and has seen it 4 times taking along a notebook and pen the last time he went.


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 19, 2004)

Why, when there is so so much good material to read, do you waste your time with this nonsense? Redeem the time friend. 

Time to move on and ahead ..........

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:1553773a09]The Biblical Balance
Like a river flows between two banks, so the truth of God's Word flows between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism. As it has been pointed out, both are true and both are false. Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and herefore He cannot learn anything or be surprised by anything. Thus, he knows, and has known from eternity past, who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. the former are the elect, the latter are non-elect. As D.L. Moody once said, the &quot;whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect&quot;. Every person who is not saved will have only himself to blame; God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to got there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any the credit. Our salvation, from start to finish, is 100% God's work, and is based entirely on the finished work of the cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace, drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us puppets to draw us into His family. [/quote:1553773a09]

That's the part that confuses me the most and makes it hard for me to believe that anyone couldn't see the blatent contradiction.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:0adf06020b][i:0adf06020b]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:0adf06020b]
Why, when there is so so much good material to read, do you waste your time with this nonsense? Redeem the time friend. 

Time to move on and ahead ..........

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [/quote:0adf06020b]

Well, I am trying to reach a few people at that board. A co-worker of mine asked me to go there and share my thoughts and opinions. I never once attacked Arminianism, nor did I say say anyone HAD to become a Calvinist. We were just sharing thoughts on how to witness and why I believed that it was pointless to &quot;dress the gospel up&quot; to make it more appealing.

I recently was warned:

This is a warning. Please read our rules for posting. Here are the rules that you have been abusing. We will not tolerate proselytizing.

uzzled:

Also, sometimes when a board allows it, I enjoy debate! It causes me to open the bible and have it right beside me when I reply. I LOVE this board, but I agree with so many (for the most part). I like to be challanged I suppose.

[Edited on 6/19/2004 by houseparent]


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 19, 2004)

This guy is a full on Arminian. He thinks God looks down the cooridor of time, seeing people choosing Him, and responds by gifting them w/ salvation for choosing them. Ridiculous!

Who is choosing who here? How about this, Christ died for no one and possibly no one chooses God..........heaven is empty.


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## johnny_redeemed (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:63f3a0d841][i:63f3a0d841]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:63f3a0d841]
The Biblical Balance
Like a river flows between two banks, so the truth of God's Word flows between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism. As it has been pointed out, both are true and both are false. Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and herefore He cannot learn anything or be surprised by anything. Thus, he knows, and has known from eternity past, who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. the former are the elect, the latter are non-elect. As D.L. Moody once said, the &quot;whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect&quot;. Every person who is not saved will have only himself to blame; God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to got there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any the credit. Our salvation, from start to finish, is 100% God's work, and is based entirely on the finished work of the cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace, drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us puppets to draw us into His family.
[/quote:63f3a0d841]

i find it funny that he says &quot;the truth of God's Word flows between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism.&quot; Yet when he explains what he believes he is a full blown &quot;extreme&quot; Arminian. I do not understand why people like this call Calvinism an "extreme" view?? What is extreme about it? Well, hope you enjoy talking with pastor Bob. Sounds like you have your work cut out for you.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

lol

Pastor Bob avoids me like the plague. After he made that post (which is much longer than I posted here) he locked the thread so I could not reply! He has never engaged me personally in a conversation.


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## cupotea (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:1c359e895c][i:1c359e895c]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:1c359e895c]
lol

Pastor Bob avoids me like the plague. After he made that post (which is much longer than I posted here) he locked the thread so I could not reply! He has never engaged me personally in a conversation. [/quote:1c359e895c]


Adam,

To make it interesting, he may not be the original author either.

http://www.calvarychapel.com/cheyenne/Books/Calvinism.html


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 19, 2004)

ahhhh!

Thanks


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 19, 2004)

Ahhh thats why I asked. I thought it sounded alot like Larry Taylor. You see, I come out of CC and am quite familiar w/ Taylor and C. Smith's antics.


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## johnny_redeemed (Jun 19, 2004)

[quote:c40ca9fada][i:c40ca9fada]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:c40ca9fada]
Ahhh thats why I asked. I thought it sounded alot like Larry Taylor. You see, I come out of CC and am quite familiar w/ Taylor and C. Smith's antics. [/quote:c40ca9fada]

before i was reformed i went to CC Bible College. i am very familiar with them as well.


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## dado6 (Jun 19, 2004)

Johnny and Scott hit the target here.

Whatever the author calls himself, the views he outlines in the first paragraphs under 'Biblical Balance' are indistinguishable from historic Arminianism. It is also significant that this section follows an opening that is derisive of those who consider themselves Calvinists. The author sweeps with broad strokes the ink of Hyper Calvinism, to drive home the notion that these extreme views are the normative or at least probable, results of exposure to the Doctrines of Grace. Of course no such caricatures are presented of the Arminian point of view. Straw men raised at the onset.

[quote:806247394e]
Rather than interpreting the Bible based on any theological or philosophical structure, it behooves us to simply read and believe the word of God.
[/quote:806247394e]

The idea that God bases his election on foreseen faith is not to be found anywhere in scripture. It is a philosophical rationalization used to crazy-glue two incompatible concepts together; God's sovereign predestination and complete freedom of the will on the part of man. Note also the repeated a-textual use of the biblical phrase &quot;whosoever will&quot;. Using a biblical phrase in an extra-scriptural communication, without reference and carrying an assumed meaning, is always a sign of bad scholarship.

This is light-weight stuff really. As the guys have said, this is typical Calvary Chapel (and AOG/4sq) anti reformed literature. A big step above some of the outy-indy-Baptist venom out there, but still weak stuff. The Methodists/Wesleyans offer a better Arminian apologetic and they have the decency to call it Arminianism.

Thanks,
Rob


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 19, 2004)

Emile Durkheim, perhaps one of the greatest fathers in sociology (which I think has more of a use than psychology), said that Calvinists were wholly responsible for the spread of capitalism.

The Calvinists worked strenuously, while still taking care of the needy and misfortuned. They validated the idea of capitalism as an economic system.

How's that for some fruit! :bs2: (and cash!)


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## A_Wild_Boar (Jun 20, 2004)

[quote:09a340b7af][i:09a340b7af]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:09a340b7af]
Ahhh thats why I asked. I thought it sounded alot like Larry Taylor. You see, I come out of CC and am quite familiar w/ Taylor and C. Smith's antics. [/quote:09a340b7af]

Same here. Funny thing is I discovered reformed truth while at a CC in Ft. Lauderdale. They actually have or shall I say had AW Pink in their bookstore.


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## Reena Wilms (Jun 20, 2004)

Hee johnny_redeemed,

From the Netherlands where iam from, i went to the U.S. to study for 9 months to CC Bible college Muriatte Hotsprings, in 1999/2000. So when have you attend ?

Ralph.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 20, 2004)

The Netherlands?

My wife and I have a young girl living with us right now (volunteering for 6 months in the Children's Home we work for) from the Netherlands! We love her, she is an awesome person!

Not that I expect that you would know her but her name is Rianne Penneward

Here she is on the left (my daughter is on the right)




[img:ce842c8ae5]http://home.comcast.net/~a2j4life/wsb/media/341208/site1016.jpg[/img:ce842c8ae5]


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 20, 2004)

[quote:b4b0ddbd90][i:b4b0ddbd90]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:b4b0ddbd90]
Historically, some hyper-Calvinists have even gone so far as to object to putting a Gospel verse on a sign, lest one of the non-elect read it and believe, thus thwarting God's plan.[/quote:b4b0ddbd90]

While this comment is referring to hyper-Calvinists and not true Calvinists, I really almost can't believe how clueless the author is about the nature of monergism. Has he even heard of two little things called Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace? Even Dave Hunt and Norm Geisler understand Calvinism better than this!


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## A_Wild_Boar (Jun 20, 2004)

[quote:624d41a9dc]

The idea that God bases his election on foreseen faith is not to be found anywhere in scripture. Rob [/quote:624d41a9dc]

Exactly. And they who preach that totally ignore Psalms 14 and 53

Psalm 14
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.






Psalm 53
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You would figure since God made mention of it twice they would see its importance? Course not.


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## Reena Wilms (Jun 22, 2004)

Dear houseparent,

Thank you so much for the nice picture of your Dutch Guest!

Say to her : Jij krijgt de groeten vanuit het verre Limburg, en moge de Here God in Zijn genade jou een gezegende tijd toewensen in The U.S. Met vriendelijk groeten van een niet bekende medelander (Ralph Wilms)

Dear Houseparent, are you working for a childerns home ? 
I also work in a childerns home in India (where my wife is from)

Ralph


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes, I work in a children's Home in Pennsylvania


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 22, 2004)

Ok guys...Pastor Bob sent me a BIG reply. I am pretty much done debating the man (because it is pointless) but can someone tell me what they think this statement means?

[quote:f817154f97]Only make your comments from your heart, from the source of your passion for Christ, not from a pre-programmed, religious, prefabricated, Christianese answer.[/quote:f817154f97]

Christianese????


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 22, 2004)

I gave her your message Ralph she said thank you!


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## gfincher (Jun 26, 2004)

*CC to reformed - a trend here?*

[quote:47c4c6f12c][i:47c4c6f12c]Originally posted by A_Wild_Boar[/i:47c4c6f12c]
[quote:47c4c6f12c][i:47c4c6f12c]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:47c4c6f12c]
Ahhh thats why I asked. I thought it sounded alot like Larry Taylor. You see, I come out of CC and am quite familiar w/ Taylor and C. Smith's antics. [/quote:47c4c6f12c]

Same here. Funny thing is I discovered reformed truth at a CC in Ft. Lauderdale. They actually have or shall I say had AW Pink in their bookstore. [/quote:47c4c6f12c]

And I also came from Calvary Chapel - was a founding member of Bob Hay's church there. Its sad that a church that so prides itself on exegesis and expository preaching misses so completely the Doctrines of Grace.


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