# Defending calvinism



## Christoffer (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't know if this is the right place for this thread (should it be in the wading pool?), but here goes

Since I am a sole calvinist in arminian/charismatic-land, I get into theological discussions from time to time. Even if I don't actively look for debate, it is still unavoidable that the questions come up now and then.

However, when discussing foreknowledge and predestination people don't generally like the conclusions that follow from their premises. I often get this response: "Well, God is greater than our philosophical constructions anyway". So they just slip out of the discussion and claim agnosticism about the whole thing. 

Another standard one is "Must we be so nitpicky about theology? Isn't the main thing that our relation to Jesus works?"

It seems that people don't even want to think about these difficult truths. Any tips for dealing with responses like these?


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## Poimen (Feb 18, 2009)

I think this issue is, in a way, very simple. Presumably if one has a relationship to Jesus one must have an authoritative source from which one has: 1) determined who Jesus is 2) determined who they are with respect to Jesus 3) determined how this relationship has been/is established. 

Presumably for these people this authoritative source is scripture. If so then scripture obviously becomes the norm by which we understand our relationship to Christ. And certainly they must understand/believe that we do not pick and choose which scriptures define the relationship we have with Christ. And so Romans 8-11 and Ephesians 1 which speak of a kind of eternal relationship with Christ must also make up the framework in which we understand how we stand with Him. 

Once having looked at said passages what conclusion could they come to except that we are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world? If they do not come to that conclusion then what justification do they have for holding otherwise? But if they are willing to study the scriptures with you, you can then help them in their understanding. 

If they, however at last as professing Christians, refuse to engage scripture they are actually refusing to do what their Lord commands (John 5:39) and what is commended by His servant (Acts 17:11). At this point only one action can be taken: prayer. Pray that they would begin to desire solid food (Hebrews 5:12ff.) or, if they are truly holding to works righteousness (which is what is at the heart of those who refuse to believe in sovereign election - Romans 11:5-7), pray for their conversion.


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## Scott1 (Feb 18, 2009)

If they are believers, it may be helpful to point out that our God requires that we worship Him in spirit and in truth.


> John 4:23
> 
> 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


 He commands us to worship Him as He reveals Himself through His Word, and not according to our own notions, thoughts or imaginations about him. This may provoke a related discussion about the regulative principle.

Always remember that a discussion about the sovereignty of God, based on His Word is different than merely debating an idea, politics, sports, etc.

Use God's Word to illustrate your points. God's Word has a power beyond words and it will accomplish His purposes. Remember that, and ask God for wisdom in explaining, and faith that God will use your engagement.

If you are sowing God's Word and are "in faith" God is going to do something with it. You may not see or understand what He is doing, but He tells us it will not return empty.



> Isaiah 55:11
> 
> 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 18, 2009)

I served as a Reformed Baptist pastor in an AG church for five years. The best advice I can give you is simply use the Bible. Daniel's advice is spot on. Another thing to remember is that debate will not convince, only God can do that. Merely be a vessel of love and Scriptural integrity. Also, avoid calvinistic buzz words and catch phrases like the plague. Use only Scriptural words and descriptions. Doing so will help to combat erroneous connotations they may hold.


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## jwithnell (Feb 18, 2009)

Another thought: when what we think about God is not right according to the scriptures, we are being idolatrous. 

While I can agree with using scripture, in my experience a reformed view of scripture (interpreted in context and interpreting scripture with scripture) is quite different from the proof texting you might encounter in Armenian Baptist circles. You may face an endless stream of "oh yeah, what abouts ..." The best opportunity would come by sitting down and working through certain passages together.


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## Clay7926 (Apr 9, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> I served as a Reformed Baptist pastor in an AG church for five years. The best advice I can give you is simply use the Bible. Daniel's advice is spot on. Another thing to remember is that debate will not convince, only God can do that. Merely be a vessel of love and Scriptural integrity. Also, avoid calvinistic buzz words and catch phrases like the plague. Use only Scriptural words and descriptions. Doing so will help to combat erroneous connotations they may hold.



He's telling the truth about the buzz words...even though they are in Scripture (chosen, election, etc.), you'll get labeled as 'elitist and sanctimonious.' I'm living proof. 

Although, one question I have is how do you deal with folks who have misconceptions about what Calvinism means? I have one friend who's hellbent on the idea that we don't believe in missions and don't want to share the Gospel to all, and despite showing him Scriptures and giving him reasons why Calvinism makes missions easier due to the mindset, he still has his mind set and refuses to listen to reason. 




EDIT: 

You were a Reformed Baptist pastor in an AG church? There's a story there...


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## Marrow Man (Apr 9, 2009)




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## smhbbag (Apr 9, 2009)

You've received some excellent advice here. Praying for you

And remember Spurgeon (or was it CS Lewis?):

"Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself."


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## Marrow Man (Apr 9, 2009)

That would be Spurgeon.


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## smhbbag (Apr 9, 2009)

> That would be Spurgeon.



I thought so, and the quote wouldn't seem to fit with much of Lewis' thought, but Lewis was credited with it in my first google search and it made me doubt myself. I'll have to email the guy who posted it that way and tell him he's a jerk


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## Marrow Man (Apr 9, 2009)

Don't tell him he's a jerk. After all, Lewis might have been quoting Spurgeon.


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## Edward (Apr 9, 2009)

Clay7926 said:


> Although, one question I have is how do you deal with folks who have misconceptions about what Calvinism means? I have one friend who's hellbent on the idea that we don't believe in missions and don't want to share the Gospel to all



Ask them if they've ever heard of Evangelism Explosion (if not, tell them to look it up and you'll continue the debate when they can discuss the matter intelligently). Then ask them if they've ever heard of Campus Crusade. Tell them both came from Presbyterians, and ask them when someone from their faith group has had as much impact.


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## smhbbag (Apr 9, 2009)

> Don't tell him he's a jerk. After all, Lewis might have been quoting Spurgeon.



Possible. And I'll mention that to him as a possible "out" he might want to take.

.....after I call him a jerk.


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