# Question - 1 Thessalonians 3:13



## Jaymin Allen (Jul 7, 2008)

"So that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints [literally 'holy ones']" (NASB) [mine]

It's been argued that if Christ is to come 'with all his saints' (1 Thess. 3:13), he must of necessity have come first 'for' them. The latter portion referring to the rapture, while the former portion speaking of a later event at the end of the tribulation. Would we equate "holy ones" with "angels," although Paul never called angels "saints" or "holy ones?" If not, who are these "saints"? What do you think?


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 7, 2008)

I certainly think these are human believers.

Personally, I do not see any reason at all to think that 3:13 must imply an earlier "coming for". When we die, we go to be WITH him, 2 Cor 5:8.

Two possible responses to the textual questions:
1) This is only referring to ALL the saints that are with him in glory. NOW. No reference to the saints on earth ("all" being qualified by the context) at the time of his return.

And, don't even the Dispensational's believe that after the "rapture" some people "left behind" (!) get saved? If so, aren't they saints too? Therefore, this is certainly no case for multiple "comings" based on the simple language of the text.

2) The Greek ἀπάντησις apantesis (1 Thes. 4:17) is usually translated as "meeting" or "official greeting". As Jay Adams has pointed out, it is language used in secular literature to describe the party of officials who went out of the city to greet the kings or superiors, and escort them back to the city, an official welcome wagon. Thus, this verse is no argument for the "caught-up" ones going someplace else (heaven). In their glorified bodies they ascend to escort the Lord in and down upon his judgment seat. This is the "noisiest day" ever (4:16), and certainly not a secret rapture.

While I don't necessarily think 1 Thes 3:13 is referring to "ALL the saints" this way, it is yet another way to validate a meaning more in harmony with a simple reading of the text in 3:13, and not an eisogetical one.


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