# What is true Praise and Worship in Church?



## Zork (Feb 21, 2012)

What is true Praise and Worship in Church?
1. The old Hymns had lots of "Theology" in them, is it the same today?
2. What if the words are right but its "Heavy metal rock music"?
3. What music would you recommend? 

There are so many views on this, can I get yours please.


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## Curt (Feb 21, 2012)

To answer at least part of your query, I will simply post something that was sent to me this morning:
Fors Clavigera: An Open Letter to Praise Bands


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## Zork (Feb 21, 2012)

Curt said:


> To answer at least part of your query, I will simply post something that was sent to me this morning:
> Fors Clavigera: An Open Letter to Praise Bands



Thank you


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## Christopher88 (Feb 21, 2012)

Zork said:


> What is true Praise and Worship in Church?
> 1. The old Hymns had lots of "Theology" in them, is it the same today?
> 2. What if the words are right but its "Heavy metal rock music"?
> 3. What music would you recommend?
> ...



1.I prefer old hymns and the Psalms. New Hymns? This so called CCM music accept for a few songs and artist lacks in scripture singing, they are great at praying. CCM is praying music or emotional music, not scripture (for the most part) and should be listened to with caution and not used in public worship. 

2. Can a Christian honor God with metal? How does metal belong in public worship? Scripture is very clear on how to worship God, metal does not belong in public worship. Personally I consider all metal trash even "christian metal." Music is a gift from God, and having to distort every sound and yell in a microphone somehow SCREAMS, false music created by gadgets. 

3.In public worship: Psalms and the Trinity Hymnal.


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## J. Dean (Feb 21, 2012)

Curt said:


> To answer at least part of your query, I will simply post something that was sent to me this morning:
> Fors Clavigera: An Open Letter to Praise Bands



That is an excellent piece. Thank you for sharing!


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## raekwon (Feb 21, 2012)

Sonny said:


> 2. Can a Christian honor God with metal? How does metal belong in public worship? Scripture is very clear on how to worship God, metal does not belong in public worship. Personally I consider all metal trash even "christian metal." Music is a gift from God, and having to distort every sound and yell in a microphone somehow SCREAMS, false music created by gadgets.



Well... I'm not personally convinced on Scripture's clarity regarding style of music, but either way... there are happy mediums between "traditional" music and metal (if such a spectrum even exists).


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## J. Dean (Feb 21, 2012)

raekwon said:


> Sonny said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Can a Christian honor God with metal? How does metal belong in public worship? Scripture is very clear on how to worship God, metal does not belong in public worship. Personally I consider all metal trash even "christian metal." Music is a gift from God, and having to distort every sound and yell in a microphone somehow SCREAMS, false music created by gadgets.
> ...



Oh come on, Rae! You mean you can't honor God with Black Sabbath's "Iron man" played for the opening song???


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## MLCOPE2 (Feb 21, 2012)

Zork said:


> 3. What music would you recommend?



The Psalter, unaccompanied.


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## Tim (Feb 21, 2012)

Yes. Nothing but the 150 Psalms of the bible. God has given us His own hymnbook, full of perfect theology. Since instrumental accompaniment was done by the Levites as part of the temple worship, and these no longer are in effect at this point in church history, let us sing using our voices only, making melody in our hearts.


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## thbslawson (Feb 21, 2012)

raekwon said:


> Well... I'm not personally convinced on Scripture's clarity regarding style of music, but either way... there are happy mediums between "traditional" music and metal (if such a spectrum even exists).



I have to agree, Scripture doesn't necessarily speak to style of music. As a musician, and as one who has lived in a foreign cross-cultural setting for a number of years, style is very subjective from culture to culture. I'm not saying _anything goes_ as far as what's permissible in worship in any cultural setting, but it is definitely true that there are forms of music out there that sound pleasing, even perhaps reverent to one culture, but very harsh and irreverent to most "Western ears." Part of the difficulty arises when we even use that term "Western ears" because we are not mono-cultural in the West. 

I think great care needs to be taken before immediately dismissing a style of Christian music as "unbiblical" because we don't particularly care for it. I'm not an exclusive psalmody guy, so I can't argue from that standpoint, but here are the principles I follow.

*Words* - The words must be clear and they must be true. We are to sing with "understanding" (1 Cor 14:15). If I can't understand what's being sung then it's just noise. If what is being sung is not true, then it's also just noise.

*Depth* - I'm not anti-repetition or anti-praise chorus (though some would disagree with me). But there are examples of repetition, simplicity and brevity in Scripture (Psalm 136, Psalm 117), but we predominantly see longer less repetitious poetic passages. Therefore I tend to be uncomfortable with singing that is merely repetition and choruses, but I also am uncomfortable with a position that says "we'll never sing a chorus in this church" or immediately levies the charge of "mindless repetition" against our brothers.

Also in relation to this issue, yes, there are still a lot of CCM songs out there that are shallow, but my wife and I were just commenting the other day just how much better a lot of CCM music has gotten in the past decade. I worked in Christian Radio for almost 6 years about 10 years ago, and it was pretty miserable then. But today there are artists like Chris Tomlin who have written some excellent songs. Plus we've seen several other prominent groups emerge in the "Reformed" world like Red Mountain, Indellible Grace and Sovereign Grace Music. While some may not like the styles of these groups, one certainly cannot say that their music is theologically shallow.

*Context* - This one gets controversial because a lot of subjectivity enters into the conversation. There are a number of issues that arise. First there's personal preference, or "I just like/don't like it!" Just because we like or don't like something doesn't make it right. Again, one argument I've often heard against contemporary sounding music in the church is that it "appeals to the flesh" or "appeals merely to the emotions." While this indeed may be true, I can assure you as a musician that if I had no interest in theology or the gospel I could easily become a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox or even an Episcopalian. Beautiful a cappella choral music, blasting organs, and orchestras most certainly appeal to my emotions and rouse me. I can be just as moved by the mere musical content of "classical" or "traditional" church music as I can by more contemporary sounding songs. If we're all honest, we all are moved emotionally to some degree or another by the type or style of music in church that we prefer. 

But connected to the issue of context there's also the question of connotations associated with a particular style of music and here's where it gets really messy. Take Christian rap for example. Many would say "It sounds like the awful gangster music that is filled with profanity" and others would argue "But can we not redeem it for the gospel?" Lots of questions arise on this subject, questions that I won't attempt to fully answer here. But I do believe that the answer may vary from place to place, church to church and culture to culture. I know of a guy in seminary who argued strongly against the use of a guitar in worship because it "made people think of rock and roll." The problem is though, that it made _him_ think of rock and roll, not necessarily everyone else. The guitar has become such a universal instrument that one would be hard pressed to say that its only connotation is that of hippy smoking weed. 

Some will not agree with me. There are those that will say that there are some forms of music that are universally bad and some that are universally good, that certain chord combinations or sounds are somehow "evil." I see this as no different that the Medieval superstition about the "tritone" (the augmented fourth dissonance) that was called _diabolus in music_ (the devil in music). This chord was thought to be inherently evil and was avoided intentionally. But it can be heard in lots of places since the Classical period, and even in what we consider "traditional" church music. What was once offensive and considered to have an evil connotation no longer causes us to bat an eye.

---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------




raekwon said:


> Well... I'm not personally convinced on Scripture's clarity regarding style of music, but either way... there are happy mediums between "traditional" music and metal (if such a spectrum even exists).





raekwon said:


> Well... I'm not personally convinced on Scripture's clarity regarding style of music, but either way... there are happy mediums between "traditional" music and metal (if such a spectrum even exists).



I have to agree, Scripture doesn't necessarily speak to style of music. As a musician, and as one who has lived in a foreign cross-cultural setting for a number of years, style is very subjective from culture to culture. I'm not saying _anything goes_ as far as what's permissible in worship in any cultural setting, but it is definitely true that there are forms of music out there that sound pleasing, even perhaps reverent to one culture, but very harsh and irreverent to most "Western ears." Part of the difficulty arises when we even use that term "Western ears" because we are not mono-cultural in the West. 

I think great care needs to be taken before immediately dismissing a style of Christian music as "unbiblical" because we don't particularly care for it. I'm not an exclusive psalmody guy, so I can't argue from that standpoint, but here are the principles I follow.

*Words* - The words must be clear and they must be true. We are to sing with "understanding" (1 Cor 14:15). If I can't understand what's being sung then it's just noise. If what is being sung is not true, then it's also just noise.

*Depth* - I'm not anti-repetition or anti-praise chorus (though some would disagree with me). But there are examples of repetition, simplicity and brevity in Scripture (Psalm 136, Psalm 117), but we predominantly see longer less repetitious poetic passages. Therefore I tend to be uncomfortable with singing that is merely repetition and choruses, but I also am uncomfortable with a position that says "we'll never sing a chorus in this church" or immediately levies the charge of "mindless repetition" against our brothers.

Also in relation to this issue, yes, there are still a lot of CCM songs out there that are shallow, but my wife and I were just commenting the other day just how much better a lot of CCM music has gotten in the past decade. I worked in Christian Radio for almost 6 years about 10 years ago, and it was pretty miserable then. But today there are artists like Chris Tomlin who have written some excellent songs. Plus we've seen several other prominent groups emerge in the "Reformed" world like Red Mountain, Indellible Grace and Sovereign Grace Music. While some may not like the styles of these groups, one certainly cannot say that their music is theologically shallow.

*Context* - This one gets controversial because a lot of subjectivity enters into the conversation. There are a number of issues that arise. First there's personal preference, or "I just like/don't like it!" Just because we like or don't like something doesn't make it right. Again, one argument I've often heard against contemporary sounding music in the church is that it "appeals to the flesh" or "appeals merely to the emotions." While this indeed may be true, I can assure you as a musician that if I had no interest in theology or the gospel I could easily become a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox or even an Episcopalian. Beautiful a cappella choral music, blasting organs, and orchestras most certainly appeal to my emotions and rouse me. I can be just as moved by the mere musical content of "classical" or "traditional" church music as I can by more contemporary sounding songs. If we're all honest, we all are moved emotionally to some degree or another by the type or style of music in church that we prefer. 

But connected to the issue of context there's also the question of connotations associated with a particular style of music and here's where it gets really messy. Take Christian rap for example. Many would say "It sounds like the awful gangster music that is filled with profanity" and others would argue "But can we not redeem it for the gospel?" Lots of questions arise on this subject, questions that I won't attempt to fully answer here. But I do believe that the answer may vary from place to place, church to church and culture to culture. I know of a guy in seminary who argued strongly against the use of a guitar in worship because it "made people think of rock and roll." The problem is though, that it made _him_ think of rock and roll, not necessarily everyone else. The guitar has become such a universal instrument that one would be hard pressed to say that its only connotation is that of hippy smoking weed. 

Some will not agree with me. There are those that will say that there are some forms of music that are universally bad and some that are universally good, that certain chord combinations or sounds are somehow "evil." I see this as no different that the Medieval superstition about the "tritone" (the augmented fourth dissonance) that was called _diabolus in music_ (the devil in music). This chord was thought to be inherently evil and was avoided intentionally. But it can be heard in lots of places since the Classical period, and even in what we consider "traditional" church music. What was once offensive and considered to have an evil connotation no longer causes us to bat an eye.


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## fishingpipe (Feb 21, 2012)

Psalms, unaccompanied by musical instruments. (This is something I have only been convinced of recently, though I have been considering it for a good long while. A recent afternoon smoking a pipe with Dr. Curto helped me reconsider many of the points I had for a more normative approach to the musical portion of worship.)


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## Loopie (Feb 21, 2012)

I am very much in agreement with Thomas' views. I have very close friends who grew up Church of Christ, where there could be no musical instruments of any kind in worship. The subject of music is very difficult, but in the end we must try to find a consistent method of discerning between acceptable songs and unacceptable songs.

If we say that the wickedness of a song is found in the instruments that it uses, we then need to figure out which instruments are acceptable (and why). We could say that ONLY the instruments that were used in the Bible (more specifically the Psalms) should be allowed. This would certainly remove the piano, organ, and guitar as acceptable instruments. My problem with this view is that even the instruments used in the Bible COULD be used in a sinful way. We can conclude from this that the instrument itself is not wicked, since ALL instruments (including the human voice) can be used for evil or good.

If we say that the wickedness of a song is found in its words, then we can easily see that words that are theologically in error, and that do not glorify God, are words that we should avoid. Of course, some might argue that ONLY hymns and songs found in scripture should be used. If this is indeed the case, then this seems to suggest that man cannot come up with ANY songs that are theologically correct if they are not already in scripture. Again, if the wickedness or goodness of a song is found in the theological correctness of its words, avoiding all man-made songs would seem to suggest that men cannot ever be theologically correct in the words that they use. For this reason I would not discard a song simply because it is man-made. If it glorifies God and is theologically accurate, there should be no reason to discard it (one example that comes to mind is Steve Green's In Christ Alone). 

In the end, looking at the purpose and context of a song seems to be a more consistent way to discern unacceptable music from acceptable music. The wickedness of a song should be found in its purpose (context and meaning). This is true of any medium. Television and Internet are not inherently evil, but they can be used for both evil and good purposes. I would say that the same is true for ANY musical instrument. Thoughts?


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 21, 2012)

Folks; if you want to discuss the merits or reasons behind Exclusive Psalmody, that needs to be done in the EP sub forum.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 21, 2012)

Please.


NaphtaliPress said:


> Folks; if you want to discuss the merits or reasons behind Exclusive Psalmody, that needs to be done in the EP sub forum.


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## thbslawson (Feb 21, 2012)

Sorry, I didn't mean to get off topic. I tried to remove my previous comment but can't seem to figure out how. If an admin wants to take it down, I'll understand.


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## thbslawson (Feb 21, 2012)

I know there are different perspectives here, and so where you are convinced on the issues (exclusive psalmody, a cappella, hymns, praise songs, etc) will largely determine how you work this issue out. That being said, her are my suggestions.

1. I answered this question somewhat in my previous post. Yes, there are many newer artists out there with songs that have good depth and good theology. And there are also some that are very poor. Be discerning. 

2. On this question be convinced in your heart. As I said before, I believe much is determined by context. Some will disagree with me I know.

3. I would suggest Chris Tomlin, Sovereign Grace Music, Indellible Grace Music, Red Mountain, Caedmon's Call (I'm going to be really edgy here and say Lecrae). Not being one who believes in exclusive psalmody, I believe it is both biblical and conducive to cross-generational appreciation and love to have both old and new songs in worship.* It's encouraging when I see young peoples singing "And Can it Be" and older believers learning to sing "God of Wonders". Also, I believe Psalms and Scripture-based songs should be included frequently.


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## Scott1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Zork said:


> What is true Praise and Worship in Church?



Ronnie,
The questions you ask deserve full biblical answers, more than can be answered quickly in a post.

To start with, what is worship?:

God defines that, it is not to be made up in the vanity of the imagination of His creatures. And he demands that He be worshipped by the means He has established in His Word.





> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI.
> Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day
> ...



We might summarize as prayer, Scripture, sacraments, religious oaths and vows, singing spiritual songs, fasting, thanksgiving.


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## thbslawson (Feb 22, 2012)

If I may clarify since I was "warned" and there's no way to explain to the moderator what I meant, I apologize if the way I stated things in my edited comment above offended or seemingly mischarqcterized those who believe in exclusive psalmody. That's not what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the fact to Zork that my perspective on what music I believe is appropriate is not coming from an EP position and wanted him to understand that others might take a different position. When I made the statement to the effect that some ignore new music, I can assure you that it was most certainly NOT aimed specifically at EP'ists or any one group in particular. I had tried to make that clear in my example when I compared a hymn to a praise song, and not a psalm to a praise song. I will try to be more clear next time. Please accept my apologies.


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## Zork (Feb 22, 2012)

Sonny said:


> Zork said:
> 
> 
> > What is true Praise and Worship in Church?
> ...



I'm 100% with you on this.

---------- Post added at 03:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------




thbslawson said:


> If I may clarify since I was "warned" and there's no way to explain to the moderator what I meant, I apologize if the way I stated things in my edited comment above offended or seemingly mischarqcterized those who believe in exclusive psalmody. That's not what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the fact to Zork that my perspective on what music I believe is appropriate is not coming from an EP position and wanted him to understand that others might take a different position. When I made the statement to the effect that some ignore new music, I can assure you that it was most certainly NOT aimed specifically at EP'ists or any one group in particular. I had tried to make that clear in my example when I compared a hymn to a praise song, and not a psalm to a praise song. I will try to be more clear next time. Please accept my apologies.





thbslawson said:


> If I may clarify since I was "warned" and there's no way to explain to the moderator what I meant, I apologize if the way I stated things in my edited comment above offended or seemingly mischarqcterized those who believe in exclusive psalmody. That's not what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the fact to Zork that my perspective on what music I believe is appropriate is not coming from an EP position and wanted him to understand that others might take a different position. When I made the statement to the effect that some ignore new music, I can assure you that it was most certainly NOT aimed specifically at EP'ists or any one group in particular. I had tried to make that clear in my example when I compared a hymn to a praise song, and not a psalm to a praise song. I will try to be more clear next time. Please accept my apologies.



Take it easy, LOLOLOL. Everything is Nr1. 
HEHEHE, 

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------




Scott1 said:


> Zork said:
> 
> 
> > What is true Praise and Worship in Church?
> ...




Thanx, Truly insightful.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 22, 2012)

Again, for like the third time, if you wish to discuss the topic of exclusive psalmody, start a thread in the EP subforum. And since it was brought up above, you can clearly see which moderator edited your post at the bottom of the text, and you can contact that moderator if you have any questions. If you have questions about moderation via a warning or infraction, you may contact any moderator after the 24 hour wait period.


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