# Resistible grace.



## earl40 (Jan 1, 2013)

Any thoughts on the grace that is resistible after the grace that is given in regeneration (irresistible)? 

Here is a thought...God gives grace knowing that we will resist it and He uses our resistance to teach us a greater appreciation of the irresistible grace we received. Of course this mostly happens when we repent of the sin we commit. I say this because there ares sins that believers commit that they never repent of.

The reason I bring this up is because I find it is rare to read of resistible grace on any reformed board. As if the concept resistible grace is not biblical.


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## Herald (Jan 1, 2013)

earl40 said:


> ...I find it is rare to read of resistible grace on any reformed board. As if the concept resistible grace is not biblical.



That is because it is unbiblical. Even when we, as Christians, are disobedient to the Word, it is not grace we are resisting, but God's commands. In fact it is the grace of God that leads us to repentance , not just in salvation (1 Pet. 3:1), but also in the Christian life (Rom. 2:4). The child of God cannot resist such grace, for without it there is no capacity for repentance.


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## Zach (Jan 1, 2013)

If grace is the unmerited favor of God the Father in Jesus Christ then it cannot ever be resisted.


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## Gforce9 (Jan 1, 2013)

It might be helpful to think in terms of the decrees of God (irresistible) and His precepts (we confess every Lord's Day just how we have failed to keep these)......


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## TylerRay (Jan 1, 2013)

> What is sanctification?
> 
> Answer: Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. -WLC 75



That is irresistible. Otherwise, we begin with grace and persevere by mere human effort.


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## Zach (Jan 1, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> > What is sanctification?
> >
> > Answer: Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. -WLC 75
> 
> ...



Great point, brother. Thanks for that.


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## housta (Jan 1, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> > What is sanctification?
> >
> > Answer: Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. -WLC 75
> 
> ...



Amen Tyler, great post.


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## earl40 (Jan 1, 2013)

So can we not call the knowledge of what to do or not to do grace? If so, does not this grace fail when we do not do or do what we should?


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## Herald (Jan 1, 2013)

earl40 said:


> So can we not call the knowledge of what to do or not to do grace? If so, does not this grace fail when we do not do or do what we should?



Earl, grace, by its very nature, can never fail. Grace has been rightly termed "God's unmerited favor." In the case of sinners it is God's unmerited favor leading to salvation. For the believer it is God's manifold blessings in our life, with one of those blessings being continual repentance from sin. And yes, the knowledge of right and wrong, is given by God's grace. But when we fail it is not grace failing, it is we who fail. If we fail (sin) as a believer, it is grace that brings us to repentance. So, grace triumphs.


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## earl40 (Jan 1, 2013)

Herald said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > So can we not call the knowledge of what to do or not to do grace? If so, does not this grace fail when we do not do or do what we should?
> ...



I agree grace does not fail for it is I who fails. What I am saying is that every time we sin the grace we got to resist sin is indeed resisted. As the following says He makes a way for us to resist sin but is there any doubt we sin in thought word and deed even though He has provided a way out.

"13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it."


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## earl40 (Jan 2, 2013)

"13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that *ye may be able to endure it." *

I believe that it would say *you will endure it* instead of *ye may be able to endure it *. If we did not have the flesh to fighting against The Spirit. Thus In my most humble opinion we there is grace we resist.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 2, 2013)

earl40 said:


> Any thoughts on the grace that is resistible after the grace that is given in regeneration (irresistible)?
> 
> Here is a thought...God gives grace knowing that we will resist it and He uses our resistance to teach us a greater appreciation of the irresistible grace we received. Of course this mostly happens when we repent of the sin we commit. I say this because there ares sins that believers commit that they never repent of.
> 
> The reason I bring this up is because I find it is rare to read of resistible grace on any reformed board. As if the concept resistible grace is not biblical.



I am not sure I follow you when it comes to "resistible grace" post regeneration but I was reading an interesting article by John Murray on _irresistible_ grace and in it he said, "*unbelief is resistance of grace* at the zenith of its disclosure and overture." 
You should take a peek... Irresistible Grace by John Murray | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org



> The contradiction which sin offers to God and to his will, if it is not adequately described as resistance, involves and is expressed in resistance. Scripture sometimes uses this term or its equivalents to express the attitude of unbelief (cf.*Acts 7:51;*13:45;*Rom. 10:21;*IITim. 3:8;*Tit. 1:9). It is obvious that sin consists in resistance to the will of God. If the claims of God were not resistible, there would be no sin. The claims of God come to expression in the gospel and all rejection of the gospel and of its demands is resistance. In the gospel we have the supreme revelation of the grace of God, and Christ is the embodiment of that grace. The glory of God is nowhere more effulgent than in the face of Jesus Christ. Hence unbelief is resistance of grace at the zenith of its disclosure and overture. So to say that all grace is irresistible is to deny the plain facts of observation and experience as also of Scripture teaching. Stephen was bold enough to indict his unbelieving audience with resistance to the Holy Spirit: “Ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye” (Acts 7:51). This is the enormity of unbelief; it is the contradiction of sin expressing itself in resistance to the claims and overtures of supreme love and grace. “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light” (John*3:19).


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## TylerRay (Jan 2, 2013)

> So it is not by their own [that is, the regenerates'] merits or strength but by God's undeserved mercy that they neither forfeit faith and grace totally nor remain in their downfalls to the end and are lost. With respect to themselves this not only easily could happen, but also undoubtedly would happen; but with respect to God it cannot possibly happen, since his plan cannot be changed, his promise cannot fail, the calling according to his purpose cannot be revoked, the merit of Christ as well as his interceding and preserving cannot be nullified, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit can neither be invalidated nor wiped out. -Canons of Dordt, Fifth Head of Doctrine, Article 8.



Perseverance is irresistible. God produces it.



> Ephraim shall say, "What have I to do any more with idols?" I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. *From me is thy fruit found.* -Hos. 14:8


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 2, 2013)

Earl,

Indwelling sin is something that is commonly discussed among the Reformed and in our Confession:



> CHAPTER XIII.
> 
> Of Sanctification.
> 
> ...


There is a war within us where the flesh lusts against the Spirit but we do grow in grace.

I think one of the common pitfalls we fall in to is to treat grace as the RCC does - as some sort of substance that is poured in or out of us. Grace, in a sense, is being put in contact with the living Christ by the power of the Spirit. I don't think it is helpful, as some have stated here, that we never resist the work of the Holy Spirit. Christ is placarded to us in Word and we are oft distracted. Christ is placarded to us in Sacrament and we often do not prepare ourselves to receive Him. We're in a war and we often treat the battle as if we're not a participant in the battle but that, because Christ has already determined the final outcome, that the command to fight _now_ is somehow some inconsequential play acting. The Reformed have thus always rejected this idea of eternal justification where we live, somehow, in the decree of God in our thinking instead of living by the Word of God.

We understand that the Word of God has sovereignly regenerated us and, even as children have no control over their birth, we have no control over the Sovereign working of the Holy Spirit. We were made alive in Christ by the Gospel that change our volitional nature to abhor our sin and to love Christ. We have, by faith, been united to the living Christ and so we have the sanctifying power of the Spirit through the means of grace to resist temptation, to give daily battle to sin, put sin to death in our members, and to learn to love Christ more. The fact that we need to repent of our sins is a real reality because it is not the Holy Spirit that indewlls us who sinned but the body of death that still hasn't been fully put to death. We know we fail in that battle and Paul makes it plain in Romans 7 how we all hate the things we still see in ourselves so there's no point in even denying the idea that we resist the goodness of God when we choose sin. The call to us is not morbid introspection but to continue to look to Christ for strength, anew, in the battle. We err if we treat the battle as theoretical as if the warnings of Hebrews apply to the "un-elect" as if we can identify those that need those kinds of warnings. Rather, we are called by the Word to give battle daily and to make sure that none of those among us are falling behind.

I'm kind of stream of consciousness here but I'm trying to express the idea that is very common in Reformed thinking. We don't dwell on theoretical ideas of how, exactly, grace is resistable or irresistible in particular categories but focus on what is plainly revealed in the Scriptures: that our union with Christ produces real life and change within us and that we're really called to daily battle and the encouragement of those around us.


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## earl40 (Jan 3, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Earl,
> 
> Indwelling sin is something that is commonly discussed among the Reformed and in our Confession:
> 
> ...



Though we should we should not "dwell on theoretical ideas of how, exactly, grace is resistable or irresistible in particular categories but focus on what is plainly revealed in the Scriptures". It is self evidwent and scriptural that God does indeed give us a "way out" of every temptation that comes our way, and if that is not grace that is irresitable I am not sure what is grace. Let us face the reality that God sometimes shows us that obediance is better than sacrifice and He does so by allowing us to see what we should have done even when we did sin by our own sinful inclinations.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 3, 2013)

Earl,

The point is that the Scripture doesn't speak in categories of comparing the irresistible grace of God in regeneration to whether or not that same grace can or cannot be theoretically resisted once a person is converted. You asked why you don't hear Reformed people talking about grace being resisted and I redirected you to the manner in which sanctification is spoken of both in terms of Biblically and how our Confessions speak of them. It doesn't speak in terms of whether grace is resistible but about how we have a war within us and to strive, by Christ's power, to resist temptation. 

If one wishes to say, then, that grace can be resisted by the Christian then the answer is yes but the Scriptures don't normally speak in such ways but in the ways that the Confessions speak of in terms of the ongoing battle with sin and temptation and against the lusts of the flesh.

I was listening to Sinclair Ferguson yesterday and he summed up the issue of assurance well. He stated that people regularly come up to him asking for a "silver bullet" for assurance and when he tells them that the key to assurance is abiding in Christ they want a "plan B". There is no "plan B" with assurance but only "plan A" and that's a desperate dependence upon Christ and the acknowledgement that we need Him today. Today, the Scriptures repeatedly enjoin, if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts. As we battle sin within our members, we are to be desperate for His grace. As we hear the voice of the Savior through the Word we are to be desperate for His grace. There is no time at which we simply stop and say: "Well, His grace is irresistible so, Today, I need not hear His voice because He's got me covered eternally." The purpose of God's irresistible plan to redeem me from sin and make me a new creature is that I would, Today, abide in Him and not theorize about what it means that I might resist the means of grace He has put before me.


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## earl40 (Jan 3, 2013)

Rich first of all I thank you for your posts.

Now what do I call "way of escape" then? Am I wrong in thinking this is grace?

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 3, 2013)

earl40 said:


> Rich first of all I thank you for your posts.
> 
> Now what do I call "way of escape" then? Am I wrong in thinking this is grace?
> 
> 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.



Yes, it is grace. Remember that grace is the Holy Spirit's work to unite us to and strengthen us in Christ. It is a personal abiding in a Person and not to be thought of as some sort of substance that is detachable or abstracted from the Person and work of Christ. I'm not saying you're thinking that but I'm just saying it out loud because it is a Roman Catholic view to think of grace as something that God dispenses and, philosophically, it is thought of as some kind of substance and we tend to think in those categories. Union with Christ is a mystery to us but I think the Scriptures call us to think in terms of being brought into contact with the indestructible life of Christ. Thus, when I'm tempted, I need to think in terms of the Scripture you just quoted. God the Spirit has vitally united me to Christ and I have the indestructible life of Christ that gives me strength in time of temptation. I'm not precisely sure how praying upon that Truth helps me in temptation but it does and the Scriptures testify to it. That's the soundest answer I can provide. I simply wish I remembered it more often which is why I'm preaching it to myself as I respond to you here.

By the way, if you'd like to listen to Sinclair Ferguson's most recent sermon it is here and he speaks much more eloquently than I about the grace of Christ:

The Grace-Giving Word - SermonAudio.com

I think it was a Systematic Theology lecture from somewhere that I first heard it from Sinclair about how we ought to think about grace and it's been very helpful.


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## Randy in Tulsa (Jan 3, 2013)

Chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession of Faith appears to clearly distinguish between the state of grace, which is irresistible and perpetual for God’s elect, and the means of grace, which are resistible and actually neglected by the elect. In short, the elect can neither resist nor revoke the state of God’s grace. However, the elect do resist and neglect the means of God’s grace, thereby incurring the wrath of God in this life, which is why they are admonished to diligently pursue the means of grace. Likewise, when the elect choose to sin and continue in it, God can and will deprive them of “some measure of the graces,” which I would interpret as meaning we lose some measure of the fruit of the Spirit, including the joy of our salvation, for a time.


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## earl40 (Jan 3, 2013)

Randy in Tulsa said:


> Chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession of Faith appears to clearly distinguish between the state of grace, which is irresistible and perpetual for God’s elect, and the means of grace, which are resistible and actually neglected by the elect. In short, the elect can neither resist nor revoke the state of God’s grace. However, the elect do resist and neglect the means of God’s grace, thereby incurring the wrath of God in this life, which is why they are admonished to diligently pursue the means of grace. Likewise, when the elect choose to sin and continue in it, God can and will deprive them of “some measure of the graces,” which I would interpret as meaning we lose some measure of the fruit of the Spirit, including the joy of our salvation, for a time.



This reminds me in that we can grieve the Holy Spirit. In other words, how can we grieve Him unless he has given us grace to do what we now know what is right.....which can only be so if we are regenerate.


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## earl40 (Jan 3, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Yes, it is grace. Remember that grace is the Holy Spirit's work to unite us to and strengthen us in Christ. It is a personal abiding in a Person and not to be thought of as some sort of substance that is detachable or abstracted from the Person and work of Christ. I'm not saying you're thinking that but I'm just saying it out loud because it is a Roman Catholic view to think of grace as something that God dispenses and, philosophically, it is thought of as some kind of substance and we tend to think in those categories. Union with Christ is a mystery to us but I think the Scriptures call us to think in terms of being brought into contact with the indestructible life of Christ. Thus, when I'm tempted, I need to think in terms of the Scripture you just quoted. God the Spirit has vitally united me to Christ and I have the indestructible life of Christ that gives me strength in time of temptation. I'm not precisely sure how praying upon that Truth helps me in temptation but it does and the Scriptures testify to it. That's the soundest answer I can provide. I simply wish I remembered it more often which is why I'm preaching it to myself as I respond to you here.
> 
> By the way, if you'd like to listen to Sinclair Ferguson's most recent sermon it is here and he speaks much more eloquently than I about the grace of Christ:
> 
> ...



So far as "dispensing grace" I know that God is in charge of how obedient each of us are by the amount of faith we are given. Though I am not sure what exactly you may think I am thinking in RC terms I can see in 2 Corinthians 6 that it is indeed possible to neglect God's grace in vain.

6 And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 3, 2013)

earl40 said:


> Though I am not sure what exactly you may think I am thinking in RC terms I can see in 2 Corinthians 6 that it is indeed possible to neglect God's grace in vain.


Earl,

I qualified and stated that I wasn't accusing you of thinking in RC terms but only that it's our collective tendency to think of grace in those terms.


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## earl40 (Jan 4, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Though I am not sure what exactly you may think I am thinking in RC terms I can see in 2 Corinthians 6 that it is indeed possible to neglect God's grace in vain.
> ...




Yes you did and I thank you for the dialog. 

To sum up I think it is interesting how we (reformed protestants) can come to dislike a word when it appears next to another word. To say "resistible grace" in the proper context is not only biblical but a reality.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 4, 2013)

earl40 said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...



I don't think it's a matter of dislike Earl but simply that "irresistible grace" has taken on sort of a shorthand for a whole set of doctrines regarding the regenerating power of God in salvation. It's not that the Reformed are unaware or never talk about the fact that we battle sin and that the Scriptures condemn those who resist the Holy Spirit, it is just that it depends upon the context of the dialog one is in.

If I'm in a dialog with someone and speaking about the fact that God's grace in the effectual call and internal regeneration accomplishes His sovereign purposes and the person responds with "...yeah but we see God's grace resisted all over the Scriptures..." then he's failing to distinguish the contexts in which God's work is being spoken of. It's the same problem with those who confuse justification and sanctification and argue that we see works all over the Scriptures as being important.

We could speak about God's grace being resisted in at least a few ways:

1. Those who repeatedly hear the Word of God and harden their hearts to its command to repent and believe. The unregenerate in Church constantly resist Christ as He is offered in Word and Sacrament.

2. As we already noted, in our battle with indwelling sin, we who are believers do not avail ourselves of the means of grace. We are called to pray and we are lazy. We are called to be attentive to the Word and we fail to prepare ourselves. We're invited to the Table of the Lord and we neglect to properly examine ourselves. The Lord will discipline us as a Father does His child but, Today, we are called to hear.

3. Some will speak of the grace of God being resisted in salvation. God offers His son and we choose not to accept Him. I only bring this one in because it is part of the "is grace resistible" question as I noted. Again, the person who makes this point is failing to distinguish that the person spoken of in the Scriptures in point 1. is not regenerate and the person spoken of in point 2. is regenerate but the "resistance" in both cases is for different reasons and the activity of the Holy Spirit is also different.

In conclusion, the reason why we have to talk this out for so long and make all these distinctions is because of the abuse of the idea that God's grace can or cannot be resisted.


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## moral necessity (Jan 4, 2013)

earl40 said:


> To sum up I think it is interesting how we (reformed protestants) can come to dislike a word when it appears next to another word. To say "resistible grace" in the proper context is not only biblical but a reality.



It comes across to some like the phrase "our God is an unloving God" would. By the time one sends out enough qualifiers to justify the expression, it might have been better to just describe what they wanted to say in a different manner, that he is unloving towards the reprobate. Certain phrases and expressions are best left alone for the benefit of the doctrine they are meant to defend.

It is true that we may refuse to place ourselves in circumstances that invite grace into our lives, such as attending church or communion, and so we may say that, in some sense, we are resisting grace. Yet, on another level, if one disects things a little more, it is grace itself that either prompts and directs our hearts towards this behavior, or it's lack of influence that allows us to be driven away from this behavior. Grace is what works on our wills to make us want to be in church and at communion. Our refusal to go merely comments on the fact that grace is not moving us very actively at this moment; and a greater presence of grace would instead prompt our wills to go. It's acting upon us is always irresistible. 

John Owen writes much about this sort of thing. It is my hope that the phrase "irresistible grace" be maintained for its rightful purpose, to describe the role of God's Spirit upon our hearts. This helps lessen the confusion of what the reformed believe, and maintains the proper distinction from the opposing arminian view.

That's how I tend to think of the topic...

Blessings and fellowship...


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## earl40 (Jan 5, 2013)

moral necessity said:


> John Owen writes much about this sort of thing. It is my hope that the phrase "irresistible grace" be maintained for its rightful purpose, to describe the role of God's Spirit upon our hearts. This helps lessen the confusion of what the reformed believe, and maintains the proper distinction from the opposing arminian view.
> 
> That's how I tend to think of the topic...
> 
> Blessings and fellowship...



I tend to think like you do also  though I see this as not an excuse to say there is no such thing as resistible grace. Do we throw this concept out (resistible grace for the regenerate) just because the mongenistic work in indeed ireistable? I simply am saying that most of the reformed Christians completely throw out any notion of resistible grace. Just an observation.


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## TylerRay (Jan 5, 2013)

Earl,

Define grace, please.


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## earl40 (Jan 5, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> Earl,
> 
> Define grace, please.



"God's unmerited favor". Is not God being gracious when He provides "a way out" of sin and He still considers you a child of His even when you do not take that way out?

6 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says,
“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”

Here we have the apostle saying (urging) us not to think of anyone as being any different than us. If we think we are any more special than an unbeliever we err. He is urging us to not think such and there would be no need to urge us to receive His grace in vain if it were not possible to do so.


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## TylerRay (Jan 7, 2013)

The Bible uses words in different ways in different places, and also uses figures of speech. The Church has done the important task of giving us a _lingua franca, or common language, for us to use when discussing theology. Grace, in the sense that it has been understood by Reformed theologians, is not resistible--as it is tied to salvation in particular. 

However, many of God's benevolent dealings with us are not efficacious for our salvation, and are thus can be received in vain, in the sense that, apart from His grace, we will respond with a lack of thankfulness._


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## earl40 (Jan 7, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> The Bible uses words in different ways in different places, and also uses figures of speech. The Church has done the important task of giving us a _lingua franca, or common language, for us to use when discussing theology. Grace, in the sense that it has been understood by Reformed theologians, is not resistible--as it is tied to salvation in particular.
> 
> However, many of God's benevolent dealings with us are not efficacious for our salvation, and are thus can be received in vain, in the sense that, apart from His grace, we will respond with a lack of thankfulness._


_

I am happy for this exchange because as you pointed out....."Grace, in the sense that it has been understood by Reformed theologians, is not resistible--as it is tied to salvation in particular."
I am not sure if the early reformers had the same thoughts you have here. It may be so because they were fighting a fight against Rome on the issue of Justification. If so I do understand coming from Rome myself. What I am trying to discuss is that the justified person receives grace "in vain". I would venture a guess the early reformers would have indeed at least had the idea in mind of the regenerate resisting grace. It would be an interesting study. I will attempt to do so by looking into some commentaries on the verse I referenced earlier.


Also so far as "many of God's benevolent dealings with us are not efficacious for our salvation" I can only say when we are unfaithful He is._


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2013)

moral necessity said:


> It is my hope that the phrase "irresistible grace" be maintained for its rightful purpose, to describe the role of God's Spirit upon our hearts


The term arises from an acrostic to help, in shorthand, describe the responses of the Council of Dordt to the Remonstrants. I hardly consider it to be something that has to be maintained when the Scriptures don't speak in such terms unilaterally. The Scriptures speak plainly of the people of God giving battle to indwelling sin. Our is not an a-historical faith where we only dwell upon the hidden work of God in regeneration but is a revealed religion where we're called, Today, to hear His voice and harden not our hearts.


TylerRay said:


> Grace, in the sense that it has been understood by Reformed theologians, is not resistible--as it is tied to salvation in particular.


If one conflates Jusitication with the term salvation then this is true but it is not habitual for the Reformed to speak of salvation solely in terms of the work of the Spirit in regeneration and justification. Salvation encompasses sanctification ("being saved") as well as future glorification. A study of the Confessions (which is what defines what is Reformed after all) notes what the means of grace are and how it is the saints' duty to avail themselves of them. A study of the Confessions also notes that we advance and falter in sanctification. 

For example, the preaching of the Word is a means of grace. Why would the Confessions (and Directory) encourage us to prepare our hearts for the receiving of the Word if our sloth and indwelling sin was not something that may lead to some want? 

In the section I quoted on Sanctification, it is quite clear that there is an irreconcilable _war_ between the Spirit and our indwelling sin. That's the strongest possible language to note that our indwelling sin not only resists but is in complete rebellion against the work of the Spirit through the means of grace. It is a struggle that our union with Christ enables but let us not ignore the clear statements of our Confession that clearly state that a war is ongoing in our sanctification.


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## moral necessity (Jan 7, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> moral necessity said:
> 
> 
> > It is my hope that the phrase "irresistible grace" be maintained for its rightful purpose, to describe the role of God's Spirit upon our hearts
> ...



Blessings to you, Rich!

Thank you for your input. I agree as well that Scripture doesn't use the term specifically. I suppose I was referring more to the primary causes of behavior instead of secondary causes and their motivations, when I wrote my post. irresistible grace, in my mind, seems to describe well the work of the Spirit in regeneration, as well as his irresistible work in Sanctification too.

Thanks again for your thoughts...

Blessings and fellowship...


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2013)

moral necessity said:


> I suppose I was referring more to the primary causes of behavior instead of secondary causes and their motivations, when I wrote my post.



Thank you for the irenic reply. I wholly agree we need to maintain the Scriptural testimony that our justification is grounded in a grace that raises dead sinners to life that they might embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I simply want us to consider that part of our definitive sanctification is a battle. In one sense, it's a resolve (born by the Spirit) that is evidence of evangelical life. The battle is certain because we have the earnest of the Spirit but we are called to abide and that's such a desperate battle that we're called to close ranks upon one another in the Church and encourage one another daily in that struggle. It's the means God has granted to ensure that His Bride will be presented to Him on that glorious day!


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## TylerRay (Jan 7, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> TylerRay said:
> 
> 
> > Grace, in the sense that it has been understood by Reformed theologians, is not resistible--as it is tied to salvation in particular.
> ...



The Word is, indeed, a means of grace; but it is not grace itself. The means can be ignored, twisted, and resisted. The grace that is received through the means of the word by the instrumentality of God-born faith, however, is irresistible. God gives sanctification. Christ purchased the right to our sanctification from the Father, as well as the right to send the Spirit, who applies that gift which Christ merited, our sanctification (the fruit of the Spirit).

That's my understanding, anyhow. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on where I'm wrong, if I am.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 7, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> That's my understanding, anyhow.


Your understanding is incorrect. Yes, sanctification is a fruit of our union with Christ and it is definitive but let me quote again the Westminster Standards on Sanctification:



> CHAPTER XIII.
> 
> Of Sanctification.
> 
> ...



From the WLC


> Q. 75. What is sanctification?
> A. Sanctification is a work of God’s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit314 applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them,315 renewed in their whole man after the image of God;316 having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts,317 and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened,318 as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.319
> 
> Q. 77. Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?
> ...


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## TylerRay (Jan 8, 2013)

Rich, I still don't see how my view contradicts the Standards on these things. Our failings are because of our sin. Our victories, in so much as they are victories, are entirely the result of His grace; we cannot claim them. We battle, but He is the one who give the strength to overcome. Sanctification, in my view, is monergistic. 

We receive sanctification in different amounts at different times, according to God's good purposes. But, in the great mystery of it, we are driven to Christ (by grace) to seek sanctification, and we find it in Him, through His ordinances (we abide in Him, and so bear fruit). But He sees fit to allow us to sin and to backslide, and He renews us again to repentance by grace.

Can you show me exactly how my view is at odds with the confession?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 8, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> Rich, I still don't see how my view contradicts the Standards on these things. Our failings are because of our sin. Our victories, in so much as they are victories, are entirely the result of His grace; we cannot claim them. We battle, but He is the one who give the strength to overcome. Sanctification, in my view, is monergistic.
> 
> We receive sanctification in different amounts at different times, according to God's good purposes. But, in the great mystery of it, we are driven to Christ (by grace) to seek sanctification, and we find it in Him, through His ordinances (we abide in Him, and so bear fruit). But He sees fit to allow us to sin and to backslide, and He renews us again to repentance by grace.
> 
> Can you show me exactly how my view is at odds with the confession?



Tyler,

When you state:



TylerRay said:


> The Word is, indeed, a means of grace; but it is not grace itself. The means can be ignored, twisted, and resisted. The grace that is received through the means of the word by the instrumentality of God-born faith, however, is irresistible.



This is simply not the case. In fact, the very statement that the means themselves are somehow divorced from the graces they signify is counter-confessional on the point, for instance, that the Sacraments are said to really convey the graces signified them by the Holy Spirit.

You also have a faulty understanding of the term monergistic as it is properly understood. All of salvation is assured, of course, because God's decree ensures that it happens but what we're dealing with here in sanctification is the historical application of God's grace in history as revealed in the Scriptures. Regeneration is said to be monergistic because the will of the unredeemed sinner is incapable of responding to the command of the Gospel altogether. It cannot be stated, in any way, that the person has any power within him to accomplish the command. Consequently, the notion of monergism is to uphold the idea that man plays no part in the electing and regenerating work of God by which the man becomes alive, sees his sin, repents, and turns to and is united to Christ.

Note that the reason why ideas of eternal justification are condemned by the Reformed traditions is that, once a man is regenerated by God (monergistically), he now has life within him to obey the call of the Gospel and the Scriptures declare that he must and will repent and turn to Christ. It is his will, not God's, that turns from sin and embraces Christ. It is not the mind of God repenting and turning in faith for us. It really does matter that the person turned and believed but God granted the condition by which it was enabled. 

It should also be said, then, that the man now united to Christ has been set free to obey. When he does obey, then, it is really his will obeying as he resists temptation (in the strength of Christ). Yes that obedience is out of the fount of Christ's indestructible life, through the Spirit, but it is still the believer's will obeying. It should not be implied that the believer can only sin and that sanctification therefore only means that, in spite of man only sinning, God obeyed for the person.

You seem to be treating grace as some sort of force or object divorced from its means. Secondly, you seem to also want to divorce our wills from any part of salvation and so, when the Confessions speak of our wills being involved or giving battle to the Spirit, you want to speak as if God has somehow been the one obeying for us in sanctification and that our wills are not engaged. Somehow, then, you are missing the clear language about this irreconcilable war in our members as if it is not our will that is making the choice to either sin or obey.

Let us examine again the differences between justification and sanctification to see if you might notice:

Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification,330 yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;331 in sanctification of his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;332 in the former, sin is pardoned;333 in the other, it is subdued:334 the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation335 the other is neither equal in all,336 nor in this life perfect in any,337 but growing up to perfection.338

Note that:

*Justification*
1. imputeth the righteousness of Christ
2. sin is pardoned 
3. equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation

*Sanctification*
1. infuseth grace and enableth the exercise therof
2. sin is subdued
3. neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any, but growing up to perfection.

Let us consider for a moment your notion that sanctification is "monergistic". Is God the one in sanctification that is enabled to exercise grace? Why, if monergistic, is sanctification not perfect in all or equal in all as it is with justification? Where, in God's "monergistic" work, would there be any lack of perfection?

Perhaps you are stuck on thinking that monergism somehow means that God's grace is present from beginning to end. The fact that grace is present from beginning to end is not in dispute. The fact that union with Christ produces sanctification is not in dispute. But this is not what "monergism" means.

As I noted (and you may have missed it) I stated that sanctification is _definitive_. That is to say that it is certain because the believer is united to Christ. This is what grace means after all - being united to Christ where sin as power is put to death on the Cross and we are united to His indestructible life in the resurrection.

All evangelical fruit springs from the fact that the sinner is united to Christ. He abides with and bears fruit in the Vine. All life and holiness springs forth from that.

That said, however, the Scriptures don't simply reveal union with Christ but they also reveal how, historically, the believer is strengthened and what it means to abide in Christ. The means of grace are given because the Spirit works through those means to strengthen us in Christ. When we pray, we are promised that we are transported by the Spirit into the very throneroom of grace. When we neglect those means due to indwelling sin then this has real consequences. We are not to, at that point, simply opine that sanctification continues to progress because God, after all, doesn't really care whether or not we sinned in the moment because we were made more holy by God whether we prayed or not.


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## Zach (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks, Rich. That was a really helpful delineation of the differences between justification and sanctification. The more and more I read discussions within the Reformed community about sanctification it seems that the most essential doctrine to our understanding of the Christian life is the union with Christ.


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## earl40 (Jan 8, 2013)

Zach said:


> Thanks, Rich. That was a really helpful delineation of the differences between justification and sanctification. The more and more I read discussions within the Reformed community about sanctification it seems that the most essential doctrine to our understanding of the Christian life is the union with Christ.



Indeed Rich was and is a most treasured resourse here. As a former RC I have and am learning that without the correct understanding of Justification one can never be sure of one is a child of God. I also find this one of the most important lessons that leads to the understanding how santification is defined as synergistic and regeneration is monoginistic.


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## Cymro (Jan 8, 2013)

Turretin wrote--"the expressions,"resistibility" and "irresistibility" of grace, are both barbarous."
He also penned,"God gave Adam the power not to sin,but He did not on that account give
him the act of not sinning."
The fact that Christians sin,reveals that sin in our members (or in the flesh),often conquers the law in our
minds,and brings us into captivity to sin in our flesh. Paul does not teach that we are free from sin, but 
from "the law of sin." A law governs and condemns. But through Christ its tyrannical power and dominion 
is broken and made us free. Yet sin still lurks in the labyrinthian recesses of our being,and continually seeks
to rise and revolt against the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. 
Because of our continuing imperfections in this life, then disobedience always remains a probability. Would
it not be better that instead of speaking of resisting grace, we ought to speak of disobedience? 
Christ has given us the power not to sin, but He did not on that account give us the act of not sinning.


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## TylerRay (Jan 8, 2013)

Semper Fidelis said:


> TylerRay said:
> 
> 
> > Rich, I still don't see how my view contradicts the Standards on these things. Our failings are because of our sin. Our victories, in so much as they are victories, are entirely the result of His grace; we cannot claim them. We battle, but He is the one who give the strength to overcome. Sanctification, in my view, is monergistic.
> ...



You have misunderstood me. God makes his means of grace efficacious as He sees fit. Therefore, we can have the Word and twist or ignore it, and not receive any grace in the hearing of it, if God chooses not to bless it. Or, God can bless the Word and make it effectual for our good. That is what I meant.



Semper Fidelis said:


> You also have a faulty understanding of the term monergistic as it is properly understood. All of salvation is assured, of course, because God's decree ensures that it happens but what we're dealing with here in sanctification is the historical application of God's grace in history as revealed in the Scriptures. Regeneration is said to be monergistic because the will of the unredeemed sinner is incapable of responding to the command of the Gospel altogether. It cannot be stated, in any way, that the person has any power within him to accomplish the command. Consequently, the notion of monergism is to uphold the idea that man plays no part in the electing and regenerating work of God by which the man becomes alive, sees his sin, repents, and turns to and is united to Christ.



Thank you very much for clearing the meaning of the term. I was using it wrongly.



Semper Fidelis said:


> Note that the reason why ideas of eternal justification are condemned by the Reformed traditions is that, once a man is regenerated by God (monergistically), he now has life within him to obey the call of the Gospel and the Scriptures declare that he must and will repent and turn to Christ. It is his will, not God's, that turns from sin and embraces Christ. It is not the mind of God repenting and turning in faith for us. It really does matter that the person turned and believed but God granted the condition by which it was enabled.
> 
> It should also be said, then, that the man now united to Christ has been set free to obey. When he does obey, then, it is really his will obeying as he resists temptation (in the strength of Christ). Yes that obedience is out of the fount of Christ's indestructible life, through the Spirit, but it is still the believer's will obeying. It should not be implied that the believer can only sin and that sanctification therefore only means that, in spite of man only sinning, God obeyed for the person.



But without the work of God in regeneration, and then the grace of God upholding the believer, he will not obey.



Semper Fidelis said:


> You seem to be treating grace as some sort of force or object divorced from its means. Secondly, you seem to also want to divorce our wills from any part of salvation and so, when the Confessions speak of our wills being involved or giving battle to the Spirit, you want to speak as if God has somehow been the one obeying for us in sanctification and that our wills are not engaged. Somehow, then, you are missing the clear language about this irreconcilable war in our members as if it is not our will that is making the choice to either sin or obey.



I hope that I have cleared these issues up. This is not representative of my position at all.



Semper Fidelis said:


> Let us examine again the differences between justification and sanctification to see if you might notice:
> 
> Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification,330 yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;331 in sanctification of his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;332 in the former, sin is pardoned;333 in the other, it is subdued:334 the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation335 the other is neither equal in all,336 nor in this life perfect in any,337 but growing up to perfection.338
> 
> ...



As I noted, I was misusing the term "monergism." What I meant was that our growth in grace (sanctification) is produced by God alone, so that the resulting good works are good works done by us that He alone gets glory for. Why is it not equal in all? Because God does not give to all equally (remember, though--our sin is still our sin).


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 8, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> You have misunderstood me. God makes his means of grace efficacious as He sees fit. Therefore, we can have the Word and twist or ignore it, and not receive any grace in the hearing of it, if God chooses not to bless it. Or, God can bless the Word and make it effectual for our good. That is what I meant.


Thank you for the clarification. As I noted in my first response, I don't typically speak in terms of whether or not grace is resistable. Suffice to say, from the standpoint of our response, we either give attention to the Word in our wills or we disobey. Insofar as we choose to disobey, we don't then turn back to God and say: "Had you enabled this means of grace to be irresistible in this case, I may have not been slothful today in the hearing of the Word." 

God's ways are inscrutable so it is best to simply note that we disobeyed and leave the speculation about how God's increase works in some cases and it doesn't in others.




TylerRay said:


> But without the work of God in regeneration, and then the grace of God upholding the believer, he will not obey.



It is axiomatic that, if a believer has never been born from above, he cannot even respond to the Word. I never stated otherwise. Sanctification implies that the person has been united to Christ and there is no such thing as growing in grace without first having repented and believed by God's power.



TylerRay said:


> What I meant was that our growth in grace (sanctification) is produced by God alone, so that the resulting good works are good works done by us that He alone gets glory for. Why is it not equal in all? Because God does not give to all equally (remember, though--our sin is still our sin).


Again, however, we speak according to things revealed and the reason for increase is not ours to know. I nowhere claimed that there is any room for boasting as if the fruit can boast of its increase apart from the Vine. I'm simply trying to underline the Biblical testimony that we are to abide and, by abiding, we must exercise our wills in the resistance against sin and temptation and obey by the power Christ gives us. We can safely state that, from the creaturely standpoint, that we may not expect any increase if we disobey. If I do not pray, then I am not availing myself of the bounties of grace as I'm transported into the very throneroom of God. The Word declares: _You have not because you ask not...._ Viewed rightly, there is a responsibility inherent in obeying that Word and not speculating as to why God has ordained that we sometimes ask not.

Just to make clear, however, all glory belongs to God for any increase and nothing I have written ought to have been interpreted otherwise.


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## TylerRay (Jan 8, 2013)

Rich, I think we're saying much of the same things. The one place where we seem to be disagreeing is on the subject of whether there is real grace that God would give the believer, if only the believer will choose to receive it--and that the believer _can_ resist God's would-be work.

what I have been arguing is that when there is grace that God intends to show toward the believer, He (graciously) subdues the will of the believer, so that the believer _does_ choose to receive it.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 8, 2013)

TylerRay said:


> Rich, I think we're saying much of the same things. The one place where we seem to be disagreeing is on the subject of whether there is real grace that God would give the believer, if only the believer will choose to receive it--and that the believer _can_ resist God's would-be work.
> 
> what I have been arguing is that when there is grace that God intends to show toward the believer, He (graciously) subdues the will of the believer, so that the believer _does_ choose to receive it.


Nowhere are we given warrant from the Scriptures to claim that a believer's disobedience is the result of Christ withholding the power of His indwelling Spirit to resist a particular temptation.



> [3]Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [4]We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
> [5]For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [6]We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [7]For one who has died has been set free from sin. [8]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [9]We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. [10]For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. [11]So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
> 
> [12]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. [13]Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [14]For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
> ...



Paul speaks in "human terms" because we are not the Creator. From our perspective, we are to definitively understand ourselves as set free from the bondage to sin and consider ourselves slaves to righteousness. We are to consider ourselves able to resist in the time of temptation. Any speculation about how God operates that directly contradicts the notion that we are, indicatively, set free from sin by our union with Christ is a violation of Deuteronomy 29:29. We live by the things revealed. Your speculative notions would have us, at the times of our failure, not united to Christ and devoid of this grace.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 9, 2013)

Owen on the Necessity of Mortification:



> If the Spirit Alone Mortifies Sin, Why Are We Exhorted to Mortify It?
> 
> Secondly, *if this be the work of the Spirit alone, how is it that we are exhorted to it?—seeing the Spirit of God only can do it, let the work be left wholly to him.*
> It is no otherwise the work of the Spirit but as all graces and good works which are in us are his. He “works in us to will and to do of his own good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13); he works “all our works in us” (Isa. 26:12)—“the work of faith with power” (2 Thess. 1:11; Col. 2:12); he causes us to pray, and is a “spirit of supplication” (Rom. 8:26; Zech. 12:10); and yet we are exhorted, and are to be exhorted, to all these.
> ...


From _OF THE MORTIFICATION OF SIN IN BELIEVERS_​, Chapter 3


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