# UnderAge Marriage?



## Coram Deo

I had a conversation with a Man this week who was from Africa. This man's tribe allows for underage marriage to 8 year old girls. I find that morally sickening. But he asked me to prove from the scripture how it would be morally wrong and not just in our culturally biased understanding..... He said he searched the scriptures from stem to stern and he can not find any limitation on underage marriage...

How would you answer this gentlemen? What scripture would you use? How would Theonomy handle this situation? I understand the whole law of the nation understanding but his tribe legally allows this..... 

Any thoughts,


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## RamistThomist

I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back. 

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."


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## Coram Deo

I did use the "Girl hasn't matured physically" reason.... But he was looking for scripture.... As he said the bible speaks about immoral sexual sins and punishments for them.. Bestiality, rape, adultery, divorce, sodomy, incest, Necrophilia, Whoredom, etc.... But where is the law against taking a wife from a underage, underdeveloped girl......

Another question, How young is to young?





Spear Dane said:


> I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.
> 
> ~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.
> 
> ~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."


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## Pergamum

Women menstruate at 10 in the US.... a pure physical reason won't fly.


I know of many groups here that buy their wives as soon as they grow breasts and menstruate. Most wait until there is proof she knows how to cook.


As far as moral disgust goes, we in the West wait so stinking long that I read the average man has 7 sex partners in his life and the average woman 4. 

Probably at least some of these partners might be due to the difficulty of being ready for "it" but having your culture tell you that you need to finish another 4 years of college before you are ready to marry.


The Jews had a Bar Mitzah and a somethingfor girls right? Some sort of ritualized entrance into adulthood. It would seem that one would need to enter into adulthood according to that people before marriage could be seen as legit. That COULD happen much younger than the West is willing to concede.


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## Dena

yes. there is something to be said for "commen sense" here. there is no reason to marry someone who is 8. they are not physically or emotionally/mentally, etc. ready to be married. 

it says nothing in the Bible, verbatim, about not marrying an infant, yet we wouldn't say thats ok, would we?


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## BobVigneault

You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.

What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. Why is this being done?

If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.

If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.

Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.

Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.


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## Pergamum

How about this:


Many arrange their marriage even while the woman is still an infant, but the actual act of marriage waits until she is ready? This happens in Asia I have read, and have heard of 2 cases myself. If one has no moral qualms against arranged marriage, then how could they object to this?


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## Pergamum

Bob: I think a large part of the question is "What exactly IS "underage"', right?


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## BobVigneault

It may be possible to make an argument that the practice constitutes promiscuity and then Romans 13:13 could be used as a foundation.


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## BobVigneault

Pergamum said:


> Bob: I think a large part of the question is "What exactly IS "underage"', right?



Right, but that's like asking "What is p*rn?", and as you demonstrated a couple weeks ago, it depends on the setting and culture. There is something in the Bible referred to as 'decency'. That is not a definite quantity but where would we be without decent people and a sense of decency. Taking a child bride just seems so indecent.


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## Me Died Blue

Spear Dane said:


> I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.
> 
> ~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.
> 
> ~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."



Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?


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## Wannabee

Another consideration: A young lady (girl) is under the headship of her father until he gives her away. The giving of daughters to husbands is obviously Scriptural. It is the father's responsiblity to both find a suitable husband for the daughter and protect her by not giving her away until both she and the groom are ready. This may be waiting until she is spiritually strong enough, and trained in the matters of homekeeping. It may be when the man has shown that he is capable of supporting a wife and providing for her. I would submit that it should be all of the above. This may be when she's 14, and it may not be until she's 40. 
Central to this issue is the fact that fathers must step up to the plate and assume the responsiblity that God has given them. If they are not tending to the needs of their daughters then this, and much worse, will happen (is happening).


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## BobVigneault

You know what, when it comes to these tricky issues I'm going to start borrowing from Jefferson.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident!!!!"

If Jefferson saw it, there must be an argument somewhere. I mean, the man who invented dumbwaiters for wine bottles, the hideaway bed, macaroni and cheese, not to mention a macaroni extruding device can't be wrong, can he??? MAC AND CHEESE PEOPLE!!!!!


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## py3ak

I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:



> And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. *And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown*; yet you were naked and bare.
> 
> "When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, *you were at the age for love*, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.


 (Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)

The _age for love_ is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.


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## Pergamum

So, what is the acceptable and decent and reasonable age?

Say, the average onset of puberty and menses for a people is 13-14. Is that then the acceptable lower range and the rare 10 year old that begins menses early is thus still considered not ready?

Or for a people whose neccessary life skills can all be taught by a girl's 12th birthday.If she can cook by 12 is she marriageable by 12?

Being reasonable, there must be reasons to deduce that 14 is okay but 12 is too young beyond mere subjectivity?


It seems that there are physical reasons (menses and reproducibility), cognitive reasons (ability to master the skills of the home) and social reasons (a people's definition of child and adult and at what age the initiation into adulthood is made). But the minimum age at which these factors could be fulfilled could vary from 12-14. Weird for us.


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## Pergamum

Ruben: What is all this happens at 11?


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## VirginiaHuguenot

It is interesting to read Calvin's perspective (his comments on 1 Cor. 7.36):



> By the flower of her age he means the marriageable age. This lawyers define to be from twelve to twenty years of age.


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## Coram Deo

Ok, this is the first attempt at a scriptural argument.... Very interesting..... Sounds Plausible... Let me think on this and consider and read a few comments on it..... It makes sense..... But what is the context of the passage?

Even if this to be true, which would prevent marriage under the age of 12, but does this deal with other so-called Child-Brides between the ages of 12 and 16 that happens around the world and even in our own country out west in Utah? Is our country's morality higher then God's Standards? Most people believe that marriage under 17 is immoral yet along to a 13 year old. People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...

VirginiaHuguenot , That Calvin quote is very interesting......




py3ak said:


> I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. *And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown*; yet you were naked and bare.
> 
> "When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, *you were at the age for love*, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
> 
> 
> 
> (Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)
> 
> The _age for love_ is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.
Click to expand...


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## Amazing Grace

thunaer said:


> People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...




Where, as far as I know there is no law preventing this action. They are in jail for having sex with them, but not marrying them. Once married, you are allowed sexual relations.


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## Gloria

Spear Dane said:


> I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.
> 
> ~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.
> 
> ~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."



 The thought of an 8 year girl being married sickens and saddens me.


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## Gloria

BobVigneault said:


> You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.
> 
> What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. *Why is this being done?*
> 
> If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.
> 
> If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.
> 
> Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.
> 
> Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.



Wisdom. Very wise question to ask.


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## py3ak

Obviously when this age is attained is going to vary from climate to climate and culture to culture. What I would emphasize is the completion of maturation. Has vertical growth stopped (you became tall)? Is puberty finished (full adornment)? 

Although I personally have never known an 11 or 12 year old who had arrived, I suppose it's possible. And since mental maturity is not determined by physical age, I suppose you could have someone mature enough in a psychological sense to be married at that age.


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## Calvibaptist

Not to throw a wrench into the monkeys or however that phrase goes...

1) Don't a lot of biblical scholars believe that Mary (the mother of Jesus) was probably in her young teen years (like 13-15)?

2) Didn't a lot of Western societies (like America) allow for younger girls to marry older men as late as 100 years ago when the average life expectancy was a lot shorter?

3) Doesn't it make you sick to think of someone wanting to marry a 12-year old, let alone an 8-year old?


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## LadyFlynt

It depends upon many factors. It was not uncommon for a 13yr female and 15-17yr male to marry in the US (heavens, they are still have relations outside of marriage in post modern era at these ages!). At one time it would not have been uncommon to marry a 14-16yr to a man in his mid 20's just as it wasn't uncommon for a 18-20yr to marry a man in his 30's pressing 40's at one time. Many marriages working out.

Much of this is cultural issue. In today's western world, we have tried to keep children as such well past maturity...into their 20s and 30s! Of course I have the same said issues on FORCING young men to remain in a classroom setting when they are of prime age to move on to trade school (many do not go to college, and colleges are open to people of highschool age even without a diploma...so no, that would not keep them from it). We've instead decided to determine everything by YEARS rather than by ABILITY and CAPABILITY...a very faulty premise.

Personally, no, I would not be in a hurry to marry my daughter off at a young age. However, I will state that we are doing no good to the morals of our society by keeping those capable and in need of marriage from marrying when it would do them the most good. I will have to search for the article where a gent discusses the affect of our age limit on our societies mores. I met my own husband when I was 15...and yes, we courted with the intent of marriage when I was that age.


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## RamistThomist

Here is the post I was looking for. Read it slowly. Then ask him if this is what he wants for his daughter. Is this what you want for your daughter? 



> I think its an issue of maturity both physical and character. Just because an 11 year old may be biologically capable of conceiving a child doesn't mean it is healthy. *Women are still growing well into late teens and sometimes early twenties.* Very often, early pregnancy is dangerous and results in the death of both mother and child.
> 
> I remember watching a special on TV about a particular culture in Africa that m
> 
> 
> 
> arried off their women very early, and most ended up physically damaged from the first pregnancy, especially bladder damage. This resulted in incontinence, which in a society which doesn't bathe often results in smelling awful, which leads eventually to the husband sending the woman back home to the parents, who as well can deal with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The women become outcasts. It's a horrible situation. I
Click to expand...


http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/different-cultural-marriage-customs-25712/#post314502


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## RamistThomist

Me Died Blue said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.
> 
> ~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.
> 
> ~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
Click to expand...


Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?


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## Coram Deo

I did not, not agree with you.... In fact it was a very logical argument.... But I was looking for a scriptural argument....

Just because something seems logical or by natural law seem correct sometimes does not agree with scripture.... By all means it is a powerful argument but scripture is our final arbiter of right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral... I once heard it said this way... "Where scripture is silent, we are silent and where scripture speaks, we speak." 

Without the scripture we can come up with all sort of extra biblical morality for which some Christians are guilty of.. I know I have been guilty of that in the past....

I know someone who claims natural law for against drinking wine.... Saying that nature tells us it is too dangerous to attempt to drink a glass of wine.... But scripture never tell us that.. It condemns drunkenness, but not drinking wine...

So natural law is a good argument, and I have used it, but it must be backed up with scripture.....





Spear Dane said:


> Me Died Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.
> 
> ~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.
> 
> ~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
Click to expand...


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## No Longer A Libertine

Isn't it strongly speculated that Mary was between 12-16 when she gave birth to Christ?


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## Coram Deo

Internet Search revealed to me that most scholars believe she was 14 or 15 years old......





No Longer A Libertine said:


> Isn't it strongly speculated that Mary was between 12-16 when she gave birth to Christ?


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## RamistThomist

My natural law comment was tongue in cheek. But does every ethical position have to be backed up by overt scriptural references? If so , what about forensic evidences, ovum transplants, organ transplants, giving blood, certain sexual practices _within_ the marriage bed other than procreative intercourse, etc.?



thunaer said:


> I did not, not agree with you.... In fact it was a very logical argument.... But I was looking for a scriptural argument....
> 
> Just because something seems logical or by natural law seem correct sometimes does not agree with scripture.... By all means it is a powerful argument but scripture is our final arbiter of right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral... I once heard it said this way... "Where scripture is silent, we are silent and where scripture speaks, we speak."
> 
> Without the scripture we can come up with all sort of extra biblical morality for which some Christians are guilty of.. I know I have been guilty of that in the past....
> 
> I know someone who claims natural law for against drinking wine.... Saying that nature tells us it is too dangerous to attempt to drink a glass of wine.... But scripture never tell us that.. It condemns drunkenness, but not drinking wine...
> 
> So natural law is a good argument, and I have used it, but it must be backed up with scripture.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me Died Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Puritan Sailor

Scripture has high standards for the duties of wife and mother. A child is completely incapable of beginning to meet such standards. She is in no way able to be a helpmeet to her husband, and a husband can certainly never bear his own soul to a child-wife and get any consolation. It's simply a practical impossibility. There's more to marital union than just male sexual gratification. And I can't imagine how such a marriage to children would not begin with an act of rape. If you want further Scriptural basis, simply go back to Gen 2. Eve was designed as a helpmeet, that is a woman who perfectly complements her husband, both in function and dignity. Proverbs 31, though poetic, certainly requires more than a child could ever give. Now, I think it is entirely possible for a girl 13-15 years to be capable of such maturity (though biologically it's pushing it for some girls), but it is a rare thing in our culture. Certainly anyone younger, should wait. They must be mature enough to perform their spiritual and social duties, not just biological.


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## Coram Deo

Can you be more specific about the certain sexual practices that the scripture does not talk about, that would be wrong?



Spear Dane said:


> certain sexual practices _within_ the marriage bed other than procreative intercourse, etc.? I have been curious about this in the past year and would like feedback.....
> 
> 
> 
> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not, not agree with you.... In fact it was a very logical argument.... But I was looking for a scriptural argument....
> 
> Just because something seems logical or by natural law seem correct sometimes does not agree with scripture.... By all means it is a powerful argument but scripture is our final arbiter of right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral... I once heard it said this way... "Where scripture is silent, we are silent and where scripture speaks, we speak."
> 
> Without the scripture we can come up with all sort of extra biblical morality for which some Christians are guilty of.. I know I have been guilty of that in the past....
> 
> I know someone who claims natural law for against drinking wine.... Saying that nature tells us it is too dangerous to attempt to drink a glass of wine.... But scripture never tell us that.. It condemns drunkenness, but not drinking wine...
> 
> So natural law is a good argument, and I have used it, but it must be backed up with scripture.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Amazing Grace

thunaer said:


> Can you be more specific about the certain sexual practices that the scripture does not talk about, that would be wrong?



Michael, let's not push the envelope here. Or else Rich will have to come up with a rating system for certain threads. Lets at least keep this PG 13


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## Coram Deo

A PM would suffice.... Thanks.... 





Amazing Grace said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you be more specific about the certain sexual practices that the scripture does not talk about, that would be wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael, let's not push the envelope here. Or else Rich will have to come up with a rating system for certain threads. Lets at least keep this PG 13
Click to expand...


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## Herald

Amazing Grace said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you be more specific about the certain sexual practices that the scripture does not talk about, that would be wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael, let's not push the envelope here. Or else Rich will have to come up with a rating system for certain threads. Lets at least keep this PG 13
Click to expand...


**MOD HAT ON*

Thank you for that. Yeah, let us avoid this type of discussion. It's not necessary. 

*MOD HAT OFF**


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## LadyFlynt

Interesting 4 page article...

Marriage Culture

If you scroll down, click on 4. it discusses age differences.


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## satz

Spear Dane said:


> My natural law comment was tongue in cheek. But does every ethical position have to be backed up by overt scriptural references? If so , what about forensic evidences, ovum transplants, organ transplants, giving blood, certain sexual practices _within_ the marriage bed other than procreative intercourse, etc.?



I do believe that every moral position we take must be backed up by scriptural principles... even if overt references are not there, the principle must at least be directly inferrable from the bible. I think Patrick(PuritanSailor)'s post just above is a good example of such inferrence. However, I do not find much biblical merit in the reasoning that is sometimes used by christians today where they say: 'Well, obviously XYZ is wrong, it is against nature' since once we leave the bible, what is or is not unatural quickly degenerates into mere discussion of opinions.


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## Richard King

BobVigneault said:


> You know what, when it comes to these tricky issues I'm going to start borrowing from Jefferson.
> 
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident!!!!"
> 
> If Jefferson saw it, there must be an argument somewhere. I mean, the man who invented dumbwaiters for wine bottles, the hideaway bed, macaroni and cheese, not to mention a macaroni extruding device can't be wrong, can he??? MAC AND CHEESE PEOPLE!!!!!



Mac and cheese? That reminds me of a song I heard once about casseroles at a Pot Luck.


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## Coram Deo

Ok, After careful study and consideration I think the passage you quoted "Ezekiel 16:6-8" would be the best scriptural inference against underage marriage.... One must be past the sexual maturation phase of life. 

I looked up what scientist and medical doctors had to say regarding puberty and it surprised me that the end of most puberty for females is an average of 14.5 years of age. Most begins at 10 to 12 but finishes by 14 to 14.5. Ezekiel 16 makes it clear that it is when the maturation is complete and everything is finished, Then the age to love comes.

That sounds about right with what the experts say about Mary the mother of Jesus being between 14 and 15 years of age when having our Dear Lord and Savior.

It does sound strange in our society since our country views it above 17 years of age. But aleast I have something now to tell the gentleman. I think John Calvin's view of 12 years of age is a bit drastic and off since alot of females are starting maturation at 12. 

This topic has open a whole can of  for me... As a Reformed credobaptist I have held that maturity and adulthood to be about 17 years of age.. So we per my strain of credobaptism we hold off baptism until 17 years of age... But if the scripture holds that 14 or 15 years of age is adulthood and is entitled to marriage then they would be entitled to baptism and church membership as well... Much to consider from this forum and the Ezekiel passage being mentioned...



py3ak said:


> I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. *And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown*; yet you were naked and bare.
> 
> "When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, *you were at the age for love*, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
> 
> 
> 
> (Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)
> 
> The _age for love_ is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.
Click to expand...


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## RamistThomist

satz said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> 
> My natural law comment was tongue in cheek. But does every ethical position have to be backed up by overt scriptural references? If so , what about forensic evidences, ovum transplants, organ transplants, giving blood, certain sexual practices _within_ the marriage bed other than procreative intercourse, etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe that every moral position we take must be backed up by scriptural principles... even if overt references are not there, the principle must at least be directly inferrable from the bible. I think Patrick(PuritanSailor)'s post just above is a good example of such inferrence. However, I do not find much biblical merit in the reasoning that is sometimes used by christians today where they say: 'Well, obviously XYZ is wrong, it is against nature' since once we leave the bible, what is or is not unatural quickly degenerates into mere discussion of opinions.
Click to expand...


I sort of agree. Of course, when scripture is quite clear on a subject, then we have scriptural warrant. But given the change in cultures, technology, etc., we no longer have a one-to-one parallel. At this point, we must seek Scriptural underpinnings and ask what the general equity (oops, maybe not the right word.  ) of a passage is.


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## BJClark

Interesting question...

We were visiting my grandparents last year and they were asking my daughters when they would be getting married. My oldest was 18, and the others were 13 and 14...my grandparents married when my grandmother was 16..and have been married some 70+ years..(I think they just want to still be alive to see great-great grandbabies, see another generation of their family line, but they aren't Christian's so I guess it's important to them to know there will be another generation started before they die)

My daughters looked at my grandparents as if they were crazy, and said probably when they were in their mid 20's.. then they asked if they have anyone in mind to be marrying..again the girls looked at them as if they were crazy...and I had to explain to my kids how years ago, folks married earlier, and typically didn't date a lot of different people..and how in some cases the parents even picked out a spouse for them...it was a different way of life years ago..


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## Thomas2007

Dear Brother Daniels,

I can give my opinion in applying the general equity of Scriptural case law to the subject.

The seventh Commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" Ex 20:14, Deut 5:18

Marriage in the Biblical context prescribes marital sexuality, for the "two shall be one flesh." God has placed many restrictions upon the lawful utilization of sexuality, I believe a case can be made from Biblical law concerning this issue.

The basic institution is the family and the family is the custodian of children, for they are told to honor their father and mother, and this is the first commandment with Promise. The family has a responsibility to raise a godly seed, provide for and care for them, with all the duties intendent upon that responsibility.

There are laws against rape, seduction and other like things. Take rape, for example, a virgin that was raped in the city and didn't cry out was assumed to be involved in the act and not a case of rape. Deut 22:23-29 Likewise a virgin that was seduced damages the family and restitution is required so that she would have a double dowry and be perceived as having a value to offer a subsequent suitor in lieu of her virginity, if the man is rejected as a husband by her father. Exodus 22:16-17

In Deuteronomy 22:13-21, we have a case where a father has given his daughter to wife, subsequently the husband charges her with not being a virgin. The parents of the damsel are then to defend the honor of their daughter by bringing before the Priests the tokens of her virginity.

All of these laws deal with sexuality, violations of that sexuality in terms of virginity as well as engagement, so the situations are subject to marriage covenants not yet fulfilled.

The clear implications of all of these laws is the familial responsibility, as well as the societal responsibility, to protect the honor of women. Biblical law seems to indicate familial engagements and the like, but it clearly indicates that virgins remain in their fathers homes under his dominion until a time in which they are given to the husband. The case above extends it so far that the parents are to maintain relevant evidentiary proofs to a damsels virginity.

In the circumstances you describe, we must ask ourselves, is an eight year old child being forced into these situations by her family, or by the prospective suitor? Is she willingly going along with this, or is she crying out against it and being forced? Is the family maintaining her honor?

If the spirit of the law is being broken in terms of a child of eight years of age, then it is certainly an unlawful act, but it is not based solely upon the age - but her virginity and the expansive meaning of that virginity whereby she can be joined unto her husband and they two can be one flesh.

It sounds to me, presuming the worst of African society derived from its grotesque animism that governs everything else they do, that the intentions and circumstances around these child brides is occurring in violation of the spirit of the laws and is adulterating the family.


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## LadyFlynt

I think we must understand why Calvin came to his early age conclusion...that being that it was common for many girls to be married at 12-14yrs...and even amoung the nobility to be married at 4-6yrs and bedded at maturity. Thus he would see "young but able" differently than most. On Mary, I would agree with about 14yrs.


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## py3ak

So we actually have 3 scriptural arguments. 
1. The Biblical definition of the age for love, taken from God's example in Ezekiel 16. 
2. The divine intention for marriage requiring more than sexual maturity in Genesis 2.
3. The parental responsibility to protect their daughters from Exodus 22 and Deuteronomy 22.

This may challenge our thinking as to what is a marriageable age, but we can also see that it is not God's will that little girls should be delivered over to a lifetime of a debilitating and humiliating relationship.


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## Coram Deo

One problem with number #3.. In most society's that allow very young brides (example would be 10 years of age), it is usually the father giving over his daughter to a man to be his wife...... All done with Parental consent... In a depraved world as ours we need a firmer understanding of marriageable age like found in Ezekiel 16.

Michael





py3ak said:


> So we actually have 3 scriptural arguments.
> 1. The Biblical definition of the age for love, taken from God's example in Ezekiel 16.
> 2. The divine intention for marriage requiring more than sexual maturity in Genesis 2.
> 3. The parental responsibility to protect their daughters from Exodus 22 and Deuteronomy 22.
> 
> This may challenge our thinking as to what is a marriageable age, but we can also see that it is not God's will that little girls should be delivered over to a lifetime of a debilitating and humiliating relationship.


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## Puritan Sailor

thunaer said:


> One problem with number #3.. In most society's that allow very young brides (example would be 10 years of age), it is usually the father giving over his daughter to a man to be his wife...... All done with Parental consent... In a depraved world as ours we need a firmer understanding of marriageable age like found in Ezekiel 16.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we actually have 3 scriptural arguments.
> 1. The Biblical definition of the age for love, taken from God's example in Ezekiel 16.
> 2. The divine intention for marriage requiring more than sexual maturity in Genesis 2.
> 3. The parental responsibility to protect their daughters from Exodus 22 and Deuteronomy 22.
> 
> This may challenge our thinking as to what is a marriageable age, but we can also see that it is not God's will that little girls should be delivered over to a lifetime of a debilitating and humiliating relationship.
Click to expand...


Number 3 is grounded in the truth of numbers 1 an 2. 
Add to that the biological/developmental considerations from general revelation which Jacob quoted from me above (which also matches the Scriptural data) and I think you have a clear cut case to answer your freind.


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## py3ak

Michael, I don't think it's so much a problem with #3 as sinful people not following God's laws. Some fathers have sold their children into prostitution: God will judge them for that, precisely because they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. Number 3 defines their responsibility, which as Patrick pointed out, they must fulfill according to the Scriptural guidelines with regard to marriageable age.


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