# Tithing



## Osage Bluestem

How much should a family tithe?

Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?


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## smhbbag

> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?



If the income is $100.00 per week, it's a perfect tithe


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## Osage Bluestem

smhbbag said:


> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the income is $100.00 per week, it's a perfect tithe
Click to expand...


Do you believe that the bible requires a 10% tithe of Christians?


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## Daniel Haley

DD2009 said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the income is $100.00 per week, it's a perfect tithe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you believe that the bible requires a 10% tithe of Christians?
Click to expand...


No


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## KMK

The word 'tithe' means ten percent. Specifically, ten percent of one's 'increase'. Technically, any offering of an amount other than 10% cannot be called a 'tithe'.

Is your question, "Is $10 a week an example of a good 'offering'?"


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## KMK

Joshua said:


> It seems God believes that we should tithe:
> 
> Malachi 3:6-8
> 6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
> 7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
> 8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?* In tithes and offerings*.
> 
> Matthew 23:23
> 23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: _*these ought ye to have done*_, and not to leave the other undone.



I would add that the Bible nowhere _forbids_ tithing.


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## KMK

I think the problem with the question is in the word, 'requires'. To be a Christian, it is not 'required' that you tithe, but only that you be found in the righteousness of Christ. 

If you are asking whether a Christian _should_ tithe, then that is a different matter. God does say that Gospel preachers should be supported just as the Levitical priests were supported. (1 Cor 9)


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## au5t1n

While tithing (10%) to the Levitical priesthood appears ceremonial in nature, it's worth noting that both Jacob and Abraham are seen giving tithes in certain circumstances before Moses. As for the new covenant, 10% is as good a place as any to start. Give generously and sacrificially.

A church needs more support than $10/wk from each member. Unless you are starving, that number is way too low, in my opinion.


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## Osage Bluestem

KMK said:


> Is your question, "Is $10 a week an example of a good 'offering'?"



People just call giving money to the church a "tithe". So, you always hear about tithing etc...

So whatever you call it, what is an acceptable/normal amount to give to a Church every week given a normal middle class income?

I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.


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## KMK

DD2009 said:


> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.



But, does the Bible teach we _should_ give 10% of our increase to the Church?


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## Tripel

DD2009 said:


> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.



As do most church-goers. That probably explains why giving is so low in churches across the country.


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## Osage Bluestem

KMK said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, does the Bible teach we _should_ give 10% of our increase to the Church?
Click to expand...


I can't remember where in the New Testament it says that Christians should give 10% of their increase.

What is the increase?


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## KMK

Tripel said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As do most church-goers. That probably explains why giving is so low in churches across the country.
Click to expand...


Agreed. But it could be that in some cases, those who disagree with tithing do so because they believe giving 10% is too little.


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## Osage Bluestem

KMK said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As do most church-goers. That probably explains why giving is so low in churches across the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed. But it could be that in some cases, those who disagree with tithing do so because they believe giving 10% is too little.
Click to expand...


Or it could be that they are using all of their money to live on.


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## KMK

DD2009 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe that the Bible teaches we must give 10% of our total income to the Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, does the Bible teach we _should_ give 10% of our increase to the Church?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't remember where in the New Testament it says that Christians should give 10% of their increase.
> 
> What is the increase?
Click to expand...


Be careful with this line of reasoning. The NT does not say that Christians should baptize their infants either but I assume you believe they should.

As to the increase, its exact particulars are often debated but it appears to be those earthly things of which God has provided for your 'living'. 



> Deut 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.


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## Tripel

DD2009 said:


> Or it could be that they are using all of their money to live on.



I agree with that--it is very well likely that those people who don't tithe are living on that extra money. But how well are they living? Your comment makes it sound like the vast majority of church-goers are scraping by and cannot survive as a family if they give 10% of their firstfruits. While I am certain that is the case for some, I don't think that is the case for most.


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## Osage Bluestem

We have a lot of laws we don't follow in the OT books of the law. How do we know which ones we are to follow and which ones we are freed from?


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## au5t1n

Regardless of whether 10% is mandated, our churches are in dire need of financial support among a nation that lives in luxury (think of all the technology we carry around). We must give sacrificially.


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## Scottish Lass

David,
What do you think your money pays for?


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## au5t1n

DD2009 said:


> We have a lot of laws we don't follow in the OT books of the law. How do we know which ones we are to follow and which ones we are freed from?



We are commanded to give for the support of the Church in numerous New Testament passages (New, not Old). Here's one example of an offering being taken for the financial support of the Church, its ministers, and its needy on the Lord's Day:



> Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
> -1 Cor. 16:2



We know from other passages ([KJV]Acts 2:45[/KJV] being one of many examples) that they gave extremely generously.


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## Andres

DD2009 said:


> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?



David, 
I believe you have poorly worded your question and therefore I am not sure exactly what you want to know. Perhaps if you would like to rephrase your question with a more specific understanding of what you would like to know, myself or others may be better able to help you. 
My understanding is that tithe means 10%, therefore to ask how much one should tithe doesn't make sense because the answer is automatically 10%. 
Are you asking if tithing is biblical? My answer is yes, it is found in the bible. Are you asking if the tithe is required of believers today? No, it is not required of believers today. 
Are you asking how much someone should give in a weekly offering to the local church? There is no set answer. This is something you and your wife should decide upon. The best scriptural advice I find for giving to church and in general is found in 2 Cor 9:6-8 which states: _"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."_
Based upon that passage, I believe you should give generously and always cheerfully. If a person is giving reluctantly or out of compulsion, then they need to examine their heart.


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## Osage Bluestem

I'm just wondering what is normal for an average middle class income, that is all. 

Somewhere in there I mentioned that I don't believe the bible teaches that Christians must give 10% which is correct. However, yes, I believe that we should give what we can. I usually don't give very much, and should probably give more. Maybe I'm just cheap.


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## au5t1n

DD2009 said:


> I'm just wondering what is normal for an average middle class income, that is all.
> 
> Somewhere in there I mentioned that I don't believe the bible teaches that Christians must give 10% which is correct. However, yes, I believe that we should give what we can. I usually don't give very much, and should probably give more. Maybe I'm just cheap.



But that's the answer to your question. 10% of your income is the expected norm. Our churches need our support, and that's a good place to start.


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## Scott1

There have been some good threads on this topic you may find useful (cf search feature).

The "tithe" and even "offering," strictly speaking were part of the Levitical law, that is civil law given Israel as a church under age.

Here's where the Westminster summary of the doctrine of Scripture helps us. Basically, equitable principles contained in these laws may still apply, though the exact application of the law, required as a standard of righteousness in the Old Testament, does not apply to us today.



> Chapter XIX
> Of the Law of God
> 
> .....
> 
> IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]



The tithing laws were quite detailed involving things like money, animals, produce and increases from year to year. 

Remember also that God organized Israel with land grants to tribes except the Levites (priests) got no land because they were to be supported through the tithe. Obviously, no other nation is constituted that way, where one "tribe" is prevented from owning land.

Offerings were often designated for buildings. The actual tithe for the Jew under the Old Testament law was much more than 10 percent, because there were multiple tithes.

Does the Malachi principle of giving to support the local church, people and building still apply?

You bet.

And you see that continued in the New Testament.

If anything, 10 percent is a starting point for giving back to God... not an end in itself (because now we see more explicitly revealed in the excellency of Christ that God owns absolutely everything... absolutely all of it).


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## Scottish Lass

"Normal" in our household is 10%. But that's obviously not what you're looking for.

Again, what do you think your money pays for?
Define "normal" and "middle-class," please.


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## Osage Bluestem

Scottish Lass said:


> "Normal" in our household is 10%. But that's obviously not what you're looking for.
> 
> Again, what do you think your money pays for?
> Define "normal" and "middle-class," please.



Thanks.

-----Added 11/16/2009 at 05:07:46 EST-----

Ok. Here's a question.

Is the 10% people pay after bills and living requirements or before?


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## ChariotsofFire

DD2009 said:


> We have a lot of laws we don't follow in the OT books of the law. How do we know which ones we are to follow and which ones we are freed from?



Whichever laws were not abrogated, (repealed by authoritative act). We know from Hebrews that the ceremonial laws of Moses were abrogated.


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## Christusregnat

DD2009 said:


> Ok. Here's a question.
> 
> Is the 10% people pay after bills and living requirements or before?



Firstfruits were the best of what you have. Think of it this way; how much does a full time teaching elder need to live? Probably 10 households' x 10% = one regular income. Plus, churches have other expenses. If you have benefitted from the ministry, should you not give generously to it? 10% is just the start.

Cheers,

Adam


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## ReformingFlatlander

What I keep coming back to is 2 Corinthians 9 and the reference of giving out of the cheerfulness of our hearts. This does seem to in some ways advocate what your saying in that 10% is not what is required. In this case of giving we are asked to give cheerfully and without a feeling of obligation. The definition of tithe is the giving of one tenth of something, often in regards to taxation. Allbeit the word tithe in English is one that comes out of Old English origins (I believe) and thus may be only 1000 or so years old. So seeing as God has asked in the OT for the tithes of our first fruits it does seem that He is pleased with giving of this nature. On the other hand, He wants us to give generously, cheerfully, and without obligation in the New Testament. I wouldn't say that this is a tearing down of the Old Testament law, but instead expounding on what was previously laid out and asking for giving to be done generously and without grumbling, questioning, or spirit of compulsion. I imagine that the church at Corinth was at the time experiencing questions similar to this and thus Paul was trying to address the church with love in this way.


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## KMK

The principle in 1 Cor 9 seems to relate specifically to the gospel ministry. First and foremost our desire as Christians should be the preaching of the Gospel. Preachers of the Gospel are _supposed_ to be supported by Christians. The amount Christians give to support Gospel ministers is a reflection of how much Christians value the Gospel.

Christians value cel phones and they, therefore, support phone companies.
Christians value satellite television and they, therefore, support satellite providers.
Christians value cars and they, therefore, support car manufacturers.
Christians value a plumber's services and they, therefore, pay the plumber.

Where your money goes is a reflection of what you value in your life. 

However, when a Christian becomes convicted that they should be supporting Gospel ministers more than they have been, it takes time for them to rearrange their spending habits to match their conviction. I think most Christians are playing 'catch up' with their desire to support Gospel ministers. That is perfectly fine because what is in the heart is the important thing.


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## Osage Bluestem

KMK said:


> .
> 
> However, when a Christian becomes convicted that they should be supporting Gospel ministers more than they have been, it takes time for them to rearrange their spending habits to match their conviction. I think most Christians are playing 'catch up' with their desire to support Gospel ministers. That is perfectly fine because what is in the heart is the important thing.



That's what I need to do is play catchup. I want to support the forwarding of the word more but I have limited additional funds with my current budget.


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## steadfast7

Does the tithe need to be paid to the local church per se, as the "house of God"? or can tithes and offerings be given to missionaries, ministries, Christian agencies, itinerant preachers, etc?


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## HokieAirman

I am strongly convicted that 10% of my gross income is required. I also believe that God will bless us the more we give. He actually asks us to test Him in this and see if our store rooms do not overflow (I'm sure someone out there has a reference).

I take this at face value. If I have a low income, I simply take the 10% out and don't even miss it. In one church I went to, if the members tithed $10/wk, there wouldn't be a church and the pastor would starve.

As a deacon, it is apparent that $10 per household is not adequate to support a church. It would quickly shrivel and die for lack of funds to pay rent and a pastor, not to mention communion supplies, or supporting a missionary or two.

If each Christian tithed 10%, the Christian church would be an extremely powerful entity to be reckoned with in this world.

-----Added 11/16/2009 at 06:43:21 EST-----

To answer Dennis, I do believe that a 10% tithe should go to the local church in which you hold membership. Extra would go to missionaries, plus most churches support missions on your behalf. For me personally, 10% is a tithe that goes to the local church. Anything above 10% is classified as an offering in my mind and can go to the local church or other Christian entities.


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## Brian Withnell

DD2009 said:


> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?



Hmmm...

Is the tithe part of the moral law, ceremonial law, or civil law when given in Israel?

-----Added 11/16/2009 at 07:18:25 EST-----



DD2009 said:


> I'm just wondering what is normal for an average middle class income, that is all.
> 
> Somewhere in there I mentioned that I don't believe the bible teaches that Christians must give 10% which is correct. However, yes, I believe that we should give what we can. I usually don't give very much, and should probably give more. Maybe I'm just cheap.



The needs of the church are fairly fixed, but the ability of the church to minister is tied to what the people give.

I can speak only to what I see as a deacon, but if everyone in the church gave only $10, there would not be enough to provide the pastor of our church with the median salary of those in the congregation (which I consider a reasonable salary ... he should neither be poor or rich compared to the congregation).

The deacons fund what they do out of offerings that are given above the "standard" support of the church. If your church is reasonable, you should be able to tell where all the money is spent. I am presently going through preparing the yearly report to the congregation for our yearly congregational meeting. At that meeting, we will also be presented with the budget for the prior year, and the coming year. It is fairly easy from that, and the number of families in the church (also reported) to figure what the average need is for the budget (the deacons' fund is separate). I will report on what we dispersed, and what ministries we supported (while I do not reveal the names of those within the church that we help, I do state what we have done).

With about 100 people in the congregation each week, and a budget that is well over $150,000 per year (and we have no mortgage) it is obvious that we need on average more than $30 from each person per week. That is per person, as when I said "100 people" I include even children. There are those that have given more than a 10th, those that give less.

When we (the deacons) collect the offerings each week, we pray that God would use them, not as all of what we give, but as a token of our giving ourselves, and that we desire that all of what we have and all of our lives are an offering to Christ, who died for us, out of our gratitude. If you know you have little, then little is asked of you. If you have been given much, much will be asked of you (not by us, but by God).

So if you want to know if what you are giving is "okay" then it is okay if you are giving what you ought to give, by God's grace in your life, and you see all that you have and are as at God's disposal, and that you are sensitive to the work your church is doing, the needs of others, what your church might need for ministry.

Look at what you spend. I dare say that $10/week is probably less than what many people spend on going out for lunch every day (you can easily spend $10 on a single meal out for one person around here). Is that what you think your church is worth?


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## NRB

It took me a long time to accept the concept of a tithe for the modern christian, this due to the fact that a former SBC preacher basically scolded the congregation one Sunday morning, used Malachi, and told us that anyone one of us not tithing at least 10% of our gross income to the church is not blessed by God, and we are indeed robbing Him. Poppycock!

Now, my attitude is different, we give what we can every week, with our goal being an actual 10% of my wife's and my own paycheck.
As a member of a local church, it's a duty In my humble opinion.
Somebody has to pay the Pastors(if the presbytery pays them, then the light bills is quite important too).


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## Edward

DD2009 said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much should a family tithe?
> 
> Is $10.00 per week a good example of a tithe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the income is $100.00 per week, it's a perfect tithe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you believe that the bible requires a 10% tithe of Christians?
Click to expand...


No, the Scriptures teach us that ALL we have belongs to God. 

And if someone only gives $10 a week, the session should probably investigate to see what assistance they might need from the diaconate. 

When I had no income, I gave no regular contribution. I did not need help from the church, but the elders were aware of my circumstances, and one stayed in touch with me about them. Now that I'm employed again, I try to pull my weight.


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## MW

Tithing -- that is the church's way of getting people to do in the flesh what they should be willing to do in the Spirit.

If one believes the Old Testament tithes still apply as a law of Christian giving then they are bound to give alot more than 10% because there was more than one tithe.


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## William Price

Dave Goodgame, a brother at Mills Road Baptist Church, just finished a series on tithing. You can find the complete list of messages here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Dave^Goodgame


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## Scottish Lass

DD2009 said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Normal" in our household is 10%. But that's obviously not what you're looking for.
> 
> Again, what do you think your money pays for?
> Define "normal" and "middle-class," please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -----Added 11/16/2009 at 05:07:46 EST-----
> 
> Ok. Here's a question.
> 
> Is the 10% people pay after bills and living requirements or before?
Click to expand...


I'm reluctant to pursue your question until I better understand your position by your answers to my questions...for example, is middle-class $30K or $50K?


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## Zenas

I again find myself in the awkward position of totally agreeing with Tripel. 

I find arguments against tithing more than a few dollars out of necessity unconvincing in light of Christ's words regarding the poor widow in both Mark and Luke. Even in her poverty, she still gave it all, and because it was all she had, it was far more than those who gave amounts of more worth. Moreover, God tells us in 1 Timothy, verse 6, 



> "Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content."



I am led to believe from what I have read that those who refuse to give in their poverty suffer from a lack of faith and contentment. I also think that I would never want to be put under the same test as I think I suffer the same.


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## Mushroom

Give as much as you can cheerfully give.

It's all the Lord's anyway. Tripping yourself upon a percentage is not constructive. As you grow in the Lord, your love for His Bride will grow as well, and your desire to give all you can will grow right along with it. I sure wish I could give more.


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## Jack K

Here’s Jesus scolding the Pharisees: “You tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others” (Mat. 23:23).

Jesus affirms the Pharisees’ tithing as good, but not good enough. Even these super-diligent tithers were not obeying God’s law far enough. They did what all our hearts are prone to do. They picked pieces of God’s law—like tithing—that, with some real determination, they could actually keep pretty well. They let this satisfy them. They let it make them feel proud.

Our own financial giving can easily make us like the Pharisees. But where determined effort fails to please God, a heart changed by Jesus succeeds.

You see, we have no record that Jesus himself ever tithed. Just one short story about him paying the temple tax (Matthew 17:24-27), but nothing more. Perhaps Jesus did tithe, but none of the gospel writers thought it important enough to mention what he did with ten percent of his money. Their accounts are consumed with how he gave 100 percent of his life.

What if our lives, too, were so immersed in justice, mercy and faith that we gave far more than ten percent of our money to God without even thinking about it? It would take a heart like Jesus, but this is what he offers every believer through his Spirit.


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## Sweaty Deacon

HokieAirman said:


> I am strongly convicted that 10% of my gross income is required. I also believe that God will bless us the more we give. He actually asks us to test Him in this and see if our store rooms do not overflow (I'm sure someone out there has a reference).



That would be Malachi 3:10

7 From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say, ‘How shall we return?’ 8 Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

I think others have hit upon all the right buttons. The tithe is literally 10%. Giving of your firstfruits indicates your gross not your net. 

All that being said, it is hard to go from $10 to 10%. You have to re-evaluate your priorities and decide if God rates an increase. Speaking from experience, when my wife and I have stepped out in faith and given more, God has always provided more. You can't give up real responsibilities like the mortgage or groceries or the light bill in order to tithe but, if you are committed to give more to the church you'll be surprised what "necessities" you can suddenly do without.


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## beej6

HokieAirman said:


> I am strongly convicted that 10% of my gross income is required.



I was taught 10% of net income (net = gross salary minus taxes). But then I was never a good economist, and at times I confess I have had difficulty with even the 10% net standard... not so much now, thanks be to God. Anyone else?


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## KaphLamedh

Does Tithing only means money? 

If it is 10% of incomings I think it´s different situation if you get 100USD a week and give 10USD than get 1000USD and give 100USD. Yes it is 10% but for poor sometimes 10% is bigger than for rich.

Luke 21:1-4
_1. And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. 2. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. 3. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; 4. for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."_

On the other hand, when we give we should give to God and be glad.

2.Cor. 9:6-7
_6. Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. _


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## KMK

KaphLamedh said:


> Does Tithing only means money?
> 
> If it is 10% of incomings I think it´s different situation if you get 100USD a week and give 10USD than get 1000USD and give 100USD. *Yes it is 10% but for poor sometimes 10% is bigger than for rich.*
> 
> Luke 21:1-4
> _1. And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. 2. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. 3. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; 4. for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."_



If this were true then God would be guilty of laying a greater burden on the poor of Israel than the rich. The whole point of tithing is that the gospel ministry is supported by an equal burden among rich and poor.


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## louis_jp

Jack K said:


> Here’s Jesus scolding the Pharisees: “You tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others” (Mat. 23:23).
> 
> Jesus affirms the Pharisees’ tithing as good, but not good enough. Even these super-diligent tithers were not obeying God’s law far enough. They did what all our hearts are prone to do. They picked pieces of God’s law—like tithing—that, with some real determination, they could actually keep pretty well. They let this satisfy them. They let it make them feel proud.
> 
> Our own financial giving can easily make us like the Pharisees. But where determined effort fails to please God, a heart changed by Jesus succeeds.
> 
> You see, we have no record that Jesus himself ever tithed. Just one short story about him paying the temple tax (Matthew 17:24-27), but nothing more. Perhaps Jesus did tithe, but none of the gospel writers thought it important enough to mention what he did with ten percent of his money. Their accounts are consumed with how he gave 100 percent of his life.
> 
> What if our lives, too, were so immersed in justice, mercy and faith that we gave far more than ten percent of our money to God without even thinking about it? It would take a heart like Jesus, but this is what he offers every believer through his Spirit.




I appreciate your point here, but Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly, so I would assume that he tithed as required by law.


----------



## Andres

KaphLamedh said:


> Does Tithing only means money?
> 
> If it is 10% of incomings I think it´s different situation if you get 100USD a week and give 10USD than get 1000USD and give 100USD. Yes it is 10% but for poor sometimes 10% is bigger than for rich.



 huh? I don't understand what you are saying here. 10% would always be the same, whether rich or poor because it is a percent and not a fixed number. Are you arguing it is harder to give when one is wealthier or poorer? Either way, I wouldn't buy the argument.


----------



## ForHisGlory

Wow. Quite interesting to see us debating over what the minimum standard is to please God.....10%, less, or more.....net or gross.......I wonder if this attitude pervaids other aspects of our lives? Or is it just "our" money?

What happened to a changed heart that realizes the tremendous mercies and grace of God? What happened to humble surrender of our lives...."Here I am Lord! Send me!"? What happended to:

"their *abundance of joy* and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a *wealth of generosity* on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, *begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints *- and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves *first to the Lord *and then by the will of God to us."

Is our joy so limited? Is our joy so shallow that it's not worth giving as much as we can to send forth the glorious gospel? Why aren't we asking questions like, "how little can we live on?"

I pray that the gospel will be seen as the true treasure it is.......and that we will love our neighbor so much as to pay whatever it takes for them to hear the gospel.


----------



## BertMulder

Talking about tithing, there are a few things to remember. First of all, to get this out of the way, the tithing in the OT was not only for the needs of the church proper, but also for the needs of the nation, just like we pay taxes to the government.

In the NT reality, the ceremonial laws have been done away with. We no longer live by precept upon precept.

Our guidelines for our giving for Kingdom causes is set by the principle of thankfulness. Thus, we give to these causes as the Lord has blessed us, realizing that we have to be good and sound stewarts over everything He gives us to use, not as if we possess it as our own property to do with as we please. It is still His.

Many churches have church budgets. It is certainly our obligation to give according to the church budget. That should properly be the first line item on our own household budget. 

If it be so that that absorbs our budget so that we cannot feed our family properly, for that cause the Lord, in His inscrutable wisdom, has given us the deaconate. And if we bring home the bacon with our paycheque, or if the deacons provide the bacon, still, in both cases that bacon comes from the same source, in that it is the Fatherly provision of our covenant God for our temporal needs.

Over and above the church budget, there are many other Kingdom causes, such as the deaconate, missions, etc. To those we give as the Lord blesses us. Out of thankfulness, and not with a calculator, saying, well, I have done well again, as I have given 10% to the penny....


----------



## kvanlaan

I find it sadly hilarious that we slavishly cling to 10% (and focus time and energy on making sure that we're giving just that much), but if we look to the NT, we see the rich young ruler being told to give all his money away (perhaps more because it was an idol to him, not because that is a prescriptive standard for us, not sure), we see many in the church selling property and giving the proceeds to the church, we see all manner of nearly inhuman sacrifice, the giving of the wodow's mite, and yet we quibble over the necessity of 10% gross/net/if _I_ can afford it.


----------



## KMK

BertMulder said:


> First of all, to get this out of the way, the tithing in the OT was not only for the needs of the church proper, but also for the needs of the nation, just like we pay taxes to the government.



Can you elaborate? Which OT tithe are you speaking of?


----------



## BertMulder

KMK said:


> Can you elaborate? Which OT tithe are you speaking of?



This all proceeds from the fact that OT Israel was a theocracy. The needs of the church proper were intertwined with the needs of the Jewish nation.

In the first place, read Deut 26:12, which was speaking of tithes and offerings for the care of the poor, the widows, the strangers.

In the second place, it was the Levites particularly who had the right to the tithes, according to Numbers 18:24. Now, what was the function of the Levites? Besides being helpers to the priests in the tempel service, they acted as teachers of the people, as judges, etc.


----------



## KaphLamedh

Andres said:


> KaphLamedh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Tithing only means money?
> 
> If it is 10% of incomings I think it´s different situation if you get 100USD a week and give 10USD than get 1000USD and give 100USD. Yes it is 10% but for poor sometimes 10% is bigger than for rich.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huh? I don't understand what you are saying here. 10% would always be the same, whether rich or poor because it is a percent and not a fixed number. Are you arguing it is harder to give when one is wealthier or poorer? Either way, I wouldn't buy the argument.
Click to expand...


I mean that when I was student, I got about 400€/month student money and my house rent was about 200€. When I gratuaded and I got job, my incoming was 2000€/month and I lived in same house. So it was harder to give 40€/month tithing than it was 200€/month tithing. Food price was the same etc. I quess you get the point. And I said sometimes, not always.

In Finland when you are member of Lutheran church, from incomings taken 1,30% for the church. btw. I don´t know is it tithing? At least it´s not 10%.


----------



## Damon Rambo

There are several "Tithes" spoken of in the Old Testament.

#1 The Levitical tithe (which, since early Israel was a Theocracy, is roughly equated to a governmental tax); 

#2 a festival tithe, which really isn't a tithe in the sense of something you have to give up, since it was to buy "whatever you like" for yourself and your family, 

#3the third year tithe to the poor (welfare, basically)

So, other than giving for yourself, and giving for the government, which we pay through other means now, the only giving left would be that of the 3 1/3 percent welfare tax, which some would say is also being paid to the government (thank you, dems). 

The Christian is not being disobedient when they do not give. We are commanded to "give whatever we want." (2 Corinthians 9:7) In fact, we are FORBIDDEN to give according to laws and customs (Greek "anagke", referring in this instance to giving according to "laws and customs" {Thayers}).


So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.


----------



## KMK

BertMulder said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you elaborate? Which OT tithe are you speaking of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This all proceeds from the fact that OT Israel was a theocracy. The needs of the church proper were intertwined with the needs of the Jewish nation.
> 
> In the first place, read Deut 26:12, which was speaking of tithes and offerings for the care of the poor, the widows, the strangers.
> 
> In the second place, it was the Levites particularly who had the right to the tithes, according to Numbers 18:24. Now, what was the function of the Levites? Besides being helpers to the priests in the tempel service, they acted as teachers of the people, as judges, etc.
Click to expand...


Which of the three tithes were used for the needs of the Jewish nation?


----------



## KMK

Damon Rambo said:


> The Christian is not being disobedient when they do not give. We are commanded to "give whatever we want." (2 Corinthians 9:7) In fact, we are FORBIDDEN to give according to laws and customs (Greek "anagke", referring in this instance to giving according to "laws and customs" {Thayers}).



Do you, therefore, add it all up and make sure that every time you make and offering it is NOT 10%? 9% is OK; 11% is OK; but it better not be 10%. Is that what you are saying?




Damon Rambo said:


> So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.



Is this a practice you have found in the Bible?


----------



## KaphLamedh

KMK said:


> KaphLamedh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Tithing only means money?
> 
> If it is 10% of incomings I think it´s different situation if you get 100USD a week and give 10USD than get 1000USD and give 100USD. *Yes it is 10% but for poor sometimes 10% is bigger than for rich.*
> 
> Luke 21:1-4
> _1. And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. 2. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. 3. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; 4. for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this were true then God would be guilty of laying a greater burden on the poor of Israel than the rich. The whole point of tithing is that the gospel ministry is supported by an equal burden among rich and poor.
Click to expand...


Well, I didn´t mean Israel when Jesus was in flesh, but rather today. It is true that someone has problem with money and someone doesn´t. I believe that God looks to our heart and attitude when we are giving tithes. With that Luke´s verses I meant that attitude of poor widow.
Sorry, I wrote in great hurry my message. I shouldn´t do that...


----------



## BertMulder

KMK said:


> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you elaborate? Which OT tithe are you speaking of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This all proceeds from the fact that OT Israel was a theocracy. The needs of the church proper were intertwined with the needs of the Jewish nation.
> 
> In the first place, read Deut 26:12, which was speaking of tithes and offerings for the care of the poor, the widows, the strangers.
> 
> In the second place, it was the Levites particularly who had the right to the tithes, according to Numbers 18:24. Now, what was the function of the Levites? Besides being helpers to the priests in the tempel service, they acted as teachers of the people, as judges, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which of the three tithes were used for the needs of the Jewish nation?
Click to expand...


As I said, the tithes in Deut 26:12 was for the poor people in general, and thus for what we would equate with the deaconate (which is never the subject of tithing in our case). The tithes referred to in Numbers 18:24 was for the maintenance of the Levites, so this was a 'blend' of the needs of the nation and the needs of the church.

The NT imperative is that we 'lay aside as the Lord has blessed us', quoting the apostle Paul...

To expand on my answer, 

All that is not done out of faith, is sin. Thus giving out of an outward conformation to a tithe is outward slavish obedience, and hence sin.


----------



## au5t1n

BertMulder said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> This all proceeds from the fact that OT Israel was a theocracy. The needs of the church proper were intertwined with the needs of the Jewish nation.
> 
> In the first place, read Deut 26:12, which was speaking of tithes and offerings for the care of the poor, the widows, the strangers.
> 
> In the second place, it was the Levites particularly who had the right to the tithes, according to Numbers 18:24. Now, what was the function of the Levites? Besides being helpers to the priests in the tempel service, they acted as teachers of the people, as judges, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which of the three tithes were used for the needs of the Jewish nation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said, the tithes in Deut 26:12 was for the poor people in general, and thus for what we would equate with the deaconate (which is never the subject of tithing in our case). The tithes referred to in Numbers 18:24 was for the maintenance of the Levites, so this was a 'blend' of the needs of the nation and the needs of the church.
> 
> The NT imperative is that we 'lay aside as the Lord has blessed us', quoting the apostle Paul...
> 
> To expand on my answer,
> 
> All that is not done out of faith, is sin. Thus giving out of an outward conformation to a tithe is outward slavish obedience, and hence sin.
Click to expand...


But 10% can be a good standard to hold us accountable, since left to ourselves we would often give less, right? It may be different for you, but if you told most evangelicals today they don't have to tithe, they wouldn't give. Sad, but true. So the solution is to encourage people to give cheerfully and sacrificially, with 10% being a useful number if you don't know where to start. It may not be a rule, but it can be a helpful measuring rod for us if we are not giving as much as our church needs. And as I pointed out early in the thread, we have examples of tithing before the Mosaic covenant (Abraham and Jacob).


----------



## Damon Rambo

KMK said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Christian is not being disobedient when they do not give. We are commanded to "give whatever we want." (2 Corinthians 9:7) In fact, we are FORBIDDEN to give according to laws and customs (Greek "anagke", referring in this instance to giving according to "laws and customs" {Thayers}).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you, therefore, add it all up and make sure that every time you make and offering it is NOT 10%? 9% is OK; 11% is OK; but it better not be 10%. Is that what you are saying?
Click to expand...


Nope. I just say "I want to give this much" without thinking of percentages at all. Sometimes special things come up and I say "I want to give 50 bucks to that!" 
There is no thought of "percentage" at all.



> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a practice you have found in the Bible?
Click to expand...



Sure; a combination of passages.

2Co 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart..

Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 


The part about putting your paycheck is not in scripture, but I thought it was a nice touch.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 12:05:29 EST-----



austinww said:


> But 10% can be a good standard to hold us accountable, since left to ourselves we would often give less, right?



No. I think that this is so stigmatized, it cannot HELP but lead to legalism. Any "percentage" system is going to lead to law keeping.


----------



## Frank Brito.

There is no such thing as tithing *money* in the Bible...


----------



## au5t1n

Damon Rambo said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> 
> But 10% can be a good standard to hold us accountable, since left to ourselves we would often give less, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I think that this is so stigmatized, it cannot HELP but lead to legalism. Any "percentage" system is going to lead to law keeping.
Click to expand...


But if one will be giving month after month, and one has a regular income, it doesn't seem unbiblical that the generous givers in the NT could decide to give a regular, set contribution, with more if desired at the time. We can give ourselves a guideline, can't we?

And I could argue just as well that doing it your way can't help but lead to giving dreadfully little for the majority of churchgoers. Of course, that's not your fault - It's a heart issue we have.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 12:10:15 EST-----



Frank Brito. said:


> There is no such thing as tithing *money* in the Bible...



Not to make myself sound like a three-year-old, but...Yuh-huh!


----------



## Frank Brito.

"A tithe of everything *from the land*, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD...The entire tithe of *the herd and flock*—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod—will be holy to the LORD". - *Leviticus 27.30,32*

That is the Law of tithing. There was money going around. But tithing was specifically agricultural. 

The reason for this is simple...

Tithing was mainly the means for supporting the Levites. The Levites didn't own land so they needed this. 

When Malachi and Jesus talk about tithing this is the law they are talking about. The law in Leviticus. If you pay attention to Jesus' argument he doesn't talk about money. "...ye pay tithe of mint and *anise and cummin*" (Matt 23). Money existed but it was not part of tithing simply because the Law according to Leviticus was not about money but about supporting Levites with no land. It was therefore an agricultural law.

"And verily they that are *of the sons of Levi*, who receive the office of the priesthood, *have a commandment to take tithes* of the people according to the law...For the priesthood being changed, *there is made of necessity a change also of the law*". (Hebrews 7.5,12)


----------



## Damon Rambo

austinww said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> austinww said:
> 
> 
> 
> But 10% can be a good standard to hold us accountable, since left to ourselves we would often give less, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I think that this is so stigmatized, it cannot HELP but lead to legalism. Any "percentage" system is going to lead to law keeping.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But if one will be giving month after month, and one has a regular income, it doesn't seem unbiblical that the generous givers in the NT could decide to give a regular, set contribution, with more if desired at the time. We can give ourselves a guideline, can't we?
> 
> And I could argue just as well that doing it your way can't help but lead to giving dreadfully little for the majority of churchgoers. Of course, that's not your fault - It's a heart issue we have.
> 
> Since the Bible tells us to give whatever we want, not giving anything is not sinful. Legalism, however, is sinful.
> 
> -----Added 11/17/2009 at 12:43:53 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...is going to lead to law keeping.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yikes! Law-keeping?!!? We can't have that now. This is a bit off topic, but are you really tying law-keeping to legalism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By law keeping, I do not mean honoring and following Gods word. "Law Keeping" in this context, is the means by which one trys to curry favor with God, by keeping a list of made up rules (like the "10 percent" rule, made up by many Christians).
Click to expand...


----------



## KMK

Joshua said:


> _Should_ invokes a moral imperative, so when someone who doesn't believe in tithing/giving, whatever you want to call it, a standard amount, yet uses the word _should_, aren't said persons still binding the conscience of one to give to some degree? And if the said invoker believes that one should give whatever they want, but one doesn't want to give anything, shouldn't the invoker stop using _should_ as a directive?



Very clever.


----------



## KMK

Damon Rambo said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Christian is not being disobedient when they do not give. We are commanded to "give whatever we want." (2 Corinthians 9:7) In fact, we are FORBIDDEN to give according to laws and customs (Greek "anagke", referring in this instance to giving according to "laws and customs" {Thayers}).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you, therefore, add it all up and make sure that every time you make and offering it is NOT 10%? 9% is OK; 11% is OK; but it better not be 10%. Is that what you are saying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope. I just say "I want to give this much" without thinking of percentages at all. Sometimes special things come up and I say "I want to give 50 bucks to that!"
> There is no thought of "percentage" at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a practice you have found in the Bible?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure; a combination of passages.
> 
> 2Co 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart..
> 
> Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
> 
> 
> The part about putting your paycheck is not in scripture, but I thought it was a nice touch.
> 
> -----Added 11/17/2009 at 12:05:29 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> austinww said:
> 
> 
> 
> But 10% can be a good standard to hold us accountable, since left to ourselves we would often give less, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. I think that this is so stigmatized, it cannot HELP but lead to legalism. Any "percentage" system is going to lead to law keeping.
Click to expand...


You have created an impossible situation for he who has 'decided in his heart' to give exactly 10%. On the one hand you say he is FORBIDDEN from tithing, but you also say he must give he has 'decided in his heart'.


----------



## KMK

Damon Rambo said:


> By law keeping, I do not mean honoring and following Gods word. "Law Keeping" in this context, is the means by which one trys to curry favor with God, by keeping a list of made up rules (like the "10 percent" rule, made up by many Christians).



So you are saying that all those who tithe are doing so because they wish to "curry favor with God"? Is this really what you mean to say?


----------



## KMK

BertMulder said:


> As I said, the tithes in Deut 26:12 was for the poor people in general, and thus for what we would equate with the deaconate (which is never the subject of tithing in our case). *The tithes referred to in Numbers 18:24 was for the maintenance of the Levites, so this was a 'blend' of the needs of the nation and the needs of the church*.



I agree with you that the nation of Israel and the church of Israel were very similar, but at this time there was no king. What were the needs of the nation spoken of Deut?


----------



## Damon Rambo

KMK said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> By law keeping, I do not mean honoring and following Gods word. "Law Keeping" in this context, is the means by which one trys to curry favor with God, by keeping a list of made up rules (like the "10 percent" rule, made up by many Christians).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying that all those who tithe are doing so because they wish to "curry favor with God"? Is this really what you mean to say?
Click to expand...



What happens when the person has a bad week/month/year and CANNOT give ten percent? They are going to feel guilty; guilt is a result of not doing something you "should" or "have to" do.

Also, they may let financial obligations go (Like the light bill), in order to keep up with a self imposed standard.

The point is to determine what amount you are going to give, with the amount you have "in your hand", not to make some kind of future rule for you to follow, which you may or may not be able to fulfill. If you have 100 dollars, and you want to give ten bucks, great. If however you say "I HAVE to give 10 bucks, because I have determined this is the amount I should give"...then that is different.


----------



## he beholds

If you see a need, you should try to help fill it, church budget included.


----------



## Amazing Grace

Damon Rambo said:


> So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.




Damon, I suggest you rethink this thought process. If everything I did for the Lord was based upon what I felt He has done for me on any given day, I would give Him nothing because of my sinful pride. I do not offer anything to God because of what I get out of Him, instead it is done solely to radiate His Glory. It is not about us, but about God. The scriptures are the revelation of God, not man. What you say above is a subtle form of Christian humanism. 

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, *and for thy pleasure they are and were created.*


Everything is this world is for His pleasure alone. If we think for one second it is about us, then wasnt it rather odd of God to make the earth the way it is where it is uninhabitable in 75% of the area? We cannot hear certain sounds but dog;s can. Eagles can see better than us. A baby horse can walk at birth but it takes us a year. Galaxies we cannot even see. 

Give to God because of who He is, not because of how it impacts us.


----------



## KMK

Damon Rambo said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> By law keeping, I do not mean honoring and following Gods word. "Law Keeping" in this context, is the means by which one trys to curry favor with God, by keeping a list of made up rules (like the "10 percent" rule, made up by many Christians).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying that all those who tithe are doing so because they wish to "curry favor with God"? Is this really what you mean to say?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when the person has a bad week/month/year and CANNOT give ten percent? They are going to feel guilty; guilt is a result of not doing something you "should" or "have to" do.
Click to expand...


Guilt is a result of not understanding the Gospel. We are all continually "not doing something we should or have to do." We do not feel guilt because we know all of the guilt and punishment for our sinfulness was born by Christ. No one on this thread (that I can remember) is advocating feelings of guilt.

Besides, you have stated that tithing is FORBIDDEN. Are you trying to make tithers feel guilty?



Damon Rambo said:


> Also, they may let financial obligations go (Like the light bill), in order to keep up with a self imposed standard.



Is it a sin to choose, like the widow, to give _all_, even if it means no lights?



Damon Rambo said:


> The point is to determine what amount you are going to give, with the amount you have "in your hand", not to make some kind of future rule for you to follow, which you may or may not be able to fulfill. If you have 100 dollars, and you want to give ten bucks, great. If however you say "I HAVE to give 10 bucks, because I have determined this is the amount I should give"...then that is different.



Then you concede that tithing is not necessarily FORBIDDEN?


----------



## BertMulder

KMK said:


> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, the tithes in Deut 26:12 was for the poor people in general, and thus for what we would equate with the deaconate (which is never the subject of tithing in our case). *The tithes referred to in Numbers 18:24 was for the maintenance of the Levites, so this was a 'blend' of the needs of the nation and the needs of the church*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that the nation of Israel and the church of Israel were very similar, but at this time there was no king. What were the needs of the nation spoken of Deut?
Click to expand...


Do not exactly know what you are driving at, but suspect you have at least as good a knowledge as I do as to what the governmental needs were in those days, king or no king....


----------



## KMK

BertMulder said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, the tithes in Deut 26:12 was for the poor people in general, and thus for what we would equate with the deaconate (which is never the subject of tithing in our case). *The tithes referred to in Numbers 18:24 was for the maintenance of the Levites, so this was a 'blend' of the needs of the nation and the needs of the church*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that the nation of Israel and the church of Israel were very similar, but at this time there was no king. What were the needs of the nation spoken of Deut?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do not exactly know what you are driving at, but suspect you have at least as good a knowledge as I do as to what the governmental needs were in those days, king or no king....
Click to expand...


I am wondering because I have heard this argument against tithing to gospel ministers before. It seems kind of shaky since no seems to know what portion of the Levitcal tithe went where. I would argue that comparing their infrastructure costs to modern day America is not a fair comparison. They had no public transportation, public education, standing military, bureaucracy, endowment for the arts etc etc.


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## BertMulder

KMK said:


> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that the nation of Israel and the church of Israel were very similar, but at this time there was no king. What were the needs of the nation spoken of Deut?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not exactly know what you are driving at, but suspect you have at least as good a knowledge as I do as to what the governmental needs were in those days, king or no king....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am wondering because I have heard this argument against tithing to gospel ministers before. It seems kind of shaky since no seems to know what portion of the Levitcal tithe went where. I would argue that comparing their infrastructure costs to modern day America is not a fair comparison. They had no public transportation, public education, standing military, bureaucracy, endowment for the arts etc etc.
Click to expand...


Well, if you read my original post, that was not at all MY argument. I am not into comparing financial needs of Israel of old to the needs of the church today.

My argument is, that we do not possess anything for us to do with as we please, but that everything comes to us from God, for us to use in His Kingdom, and for us to exercise stewardship over.

Does that mean we may enjoy the earthly, temporal blessings: yes, but not at the expense of Kingdom causes.

Does that mean we have to give 10%? No, maybe one that is well to do should give 25% or even 50%, while a poor widow can only give her mite....

As Paul said, let each one lay up as the Lord has blessed him...

And that should be the first thing on the family budget...


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## DMcFadden

I have practiced 10% gross giving to our church since childhood. As the Lord has blessed my family with additional money we tried to go well beyond that stingy minimum by adopting missionaries and Christian institutions we felt committed to and wanted to support.

I think that much of the discussion in this thread is framed inartfully and backwards. We should be asking how much of the Lord's money may we legitimately keep, not how much do we "hafta" give.


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## KMK

BertMulder said:


> Well, if you read my original post, that was not at all MY argument. I am not into comparing financial needs of Israel of old to the needs of the church today.



This is from your original post:



BertMulder said:


> Talking about tithing, there are a few things to remember. First of all, to get this out of the way, the tithing in the OT was not only for the needs of the church proper, but also for the needs of the nation, just like we pay taxes to the government.



I am just trying to figure out what bearing this has on tithes today.



BertMulder said:


> My argument is, that we do not possess anything for us to do with as we please, but that everything comes to us from God, for us to use in His Kingdom, and for us to exercise stewardship over.
> 
> Does that mean we may enjoy the earthly, temporal blessings: yes, but not at the expense of Kingdom causes.
> 
> Does that mean we have to give 10%? No, *maybe one that is well to do should give 25% or even 50%, while a poor widow can only give her mite....*



The point with the poor widow was that she gave %100. The percentage one gives is in relationship to their 'increase', not the church budget. (Which is what it sounds like you are saying.)


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## Rogerant

Matthew 6:1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly"

Take heed that you respond with an answer from scripture or the confessions to what we are required to give. That is what the question was. NOT what do you give!


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## BertMulder

KMK said:


> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you read my original post, that was not at all MY argument. I am not into comparing financial needs of Israel of old to the needs of the church today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from your original post:
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talking about tithing, there are a few things to remember. First of all, to get this out of the way, the tithing in the OT was not only for the needs of the church proper, but also for the needs of the nation, just like we pay taxes to the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am just trying to figure out what bearing this has on tithes today.
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> My argument is, that we do not possess anything for us to do with as we please, but that everything comes to us from God, for us to use in His Kingdom, and for us to exercise stewardship over.
> 
> Does that mean we may enjoy the earthly, temporal blessings: yes, but not at the expense of Kingdom causes.
> 
> Does that mean we have to give 10%? No, *maybe one that is well to do should give 25% or even 50%, while a poor widow can only give her mite....*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point with the poor widow was that she gave %100. The percentage one gives is in relationship to their 'increase', not the church budget. (Which is what it sounds like you are saying.)
Click to expand...



Sounds to me you are trying to pick an argument, or to fit something into a legalistic framework where it does not belong...

How many times do I have to repeat: "We do not own any of it"....


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## KMK

BertMulder said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you read my original post, that was not at all MY argument. I am not into comparing financial needs of Israel of old to the needs of the church today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from your original post:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just trying to figure out what bearing this has on tithes today.
> 
> 
> 
> BertMulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> My argument is, that we do not possess anything for us to do with as we please, but that everything comes to us from God, for us to use in His Kingdom, and for us to exercise stewardship over.
> 
> Does that mean we may enjoy the earthly, temporal blessings: yes, but not at the expense of Kingdom causes.
> 
> Does that mean we have to give 10%? No, *maybe one that is well to do should give 25% or even 50%, while a poor widow can only give her mite....*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point with the poor widow was that she gave %100. The percentage one gives is in relationship to their 'increase', not the church budget. (Which is what it sounds like you are saying.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds to me you are trying to pick an argument, or to fit something into a legalistic framework where it does not belong...
> 
> How many times do I have to repeat: "We do not own any of it"....
Click to expand...


We must be talking past each other because I have not once suggested that there is some kind of 'law' involved in the issue of tithing. I agree with you that in one sense we do not 'own any of it'. However, as Dennis has pointed out, God has sovereignly given us our wealth and and it does belong to us. The question is, how much of what God has blessed us does he intend for us to keep for our own living and how much should be used to support the Gospel ministry?

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the church budget should be a high priority in the minds of all the church.


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## Damon Rambo

Amazing Grace said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon, I suggest you rethink this thought process. If everything I did for the Lord was based upon what I felt He has done for me on any given day, I would give Him nothing because of my sinful pride. I do not offer anything to God because of what I get out of Him, instead it is done solely to radiate His Glory. It is not about us, but about God. The scriptures are the revelation of God, not man. What you say above is a subtle form of Christian humanism.
Click to expand...


No, it is following what the scriptures say. The scripture say for us to give what we WANT, what we desire "in our heart." What you are saying, is that we should go back to the old Covenant and do it that way. That is incorrect.

Also, this is not a simple matter of what we "feel" but what we "want." If you have a single day, where you say "I want to displease God today." then I suggest you have a heart problem (not saying that you do, of course.)

Scripture says God gives us a new heart; one that desires to give all to Him. Either that is true of an individual, or it is not; either way, forcing some silly rules on them, that were never given to us, will not fix the problem.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 05:57:51 EST-----



DMcFadden said:


> not how much do we "hafta" give.



But when you start putting percentages to things, that is the inevitable result. People should just say "Give what you want" and leave the Holy Spirit to work on His people's hearts to get them giving.

He is quite capable, friends.


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## PointingToChrist

Damon Rambo said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how much should we give? I think every time we get paid, we should meditate on what Christ has done for us for about an hour with our paycheck sitting in front of us, and then write a number down on a piece of paper; and give that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon, I suggest you rethink this thought process. If everything I did for the Lord was based upon what I felt He has done for me on any given day, I would give Him nothing because of my sinful pride. I do not offer anything to God because of what I get out of Him, instead it is done solely to radiate His Glory. It is not about us, but about God. The scriptures are the revelation of God, not man. What you say above is a subtle form of Christian humanism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *No, it is following what the scriptures say. The scripture say for us to give what we WANT, what we desire "in our heart." What you are saying, is that we should go back to the old Covenant and do it that way. That is incorrect.*
> 
> Also, this is not a simple matter of what we "feel" but what we "want." If you have a single day, where you say "I want to displease God today." then I suggest you have a heart problem (not saying that you do, of course.)
> 
> Scripture says God gives us a new heart; one that desires to give all to Him. Either that is true of an individual, or it is not; either way, forcing some silly rules on them, that were never given to us, will not fix the problem.
> 
> -----Added 11/17/2009 at 05:57:51 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> not how much do we "hafta" give.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But when you start putting percentages to things, that is the inevitable result. People should just say "Give what you want" and leave the Holy Spirit to work on His people's hearts to get them giving.
> 
> He is quite capable, friends.
Click to expand...


The heart of man is corrupt. The Old Testament clearly lays out that we should tithe 10% of our firstfruits (which in America and Western Europe are dollars, pounds sterling, Euro, and so on; no one is exchanging mint, dill, and cumin), and Jesus shows the widows' mite.

Let's see what happens when a church congregation gives $10 a month each member. You will probably no longer have a church.

Mitch


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## Peairtach

I think if we ignore tithing we're left with little guidance as to "normal" weekly giving to Christ's Church i.e. His Cause and Kingdom.

If tithing is no guide to us, one believer could ordinarily give 1% a week and feel quite pleased with himself, whereas another could give 90% and still be racked with guilt, that he was not giving enough.

The fact that Abraham, our father in the faith, and Jacob tithed and that this is repeated in the New Covenant, Book of Hebrews, persuades me that tithing is an ongoing principle. 

Melchisedec received the tithes and brought forth bread and wine; the imagery is unmistakeable. All communicant members should tithe, and teach their children to tithe.

I'm not persuaded that under the Mosaic period there were extra-tithes. If there were, we should learn from that, but it is Old Covenant anyway, unlike the passages on Abraham and Jacob. The lessons we learn from the typological Old Covenant period may be different from those thing that were established before.

Tithing also isn't a simple matter. In an ideal world the Church would be responsible for "HEW" (Health, Education, Welfare) from the tithe.

Therefore, if someone deducts from his tithe those taxes and/or insurance he pays for HEW, this is a perfectly legitimate way of doing things. In an ideal world the state would have as little as necessary to do with HEW.

All these calculations etc, may smack of carnality to the SS, Super Spiritual, for some reason.

You can obey something *because it is commanded* out of a good and renewed heart, as we Reformed should know.

We are not limited to the tithe and may give our whole weekly income some weeks if we wish, like the Poor Widow.

The Widow and her Mites is sometimes cited when this comes up. One of the things that should be kept in mind, is, if this widow had done this each week she might have ended up starving and/or dead. And if that wasn't the case with her, it might be with some widows. So what does this have to do with any guidance from God's Word on normal, regular giving.

We should all be happy to do the Poor Widow thing, from time to time and on occasion, because God in Christ has been so good to us. 

But should we advise people to do it every week? Seems much more reckless than saying tithing is a standard?

In the Old Covenant, and more importantly in the Abrahamic period, there were tithes and offererings. Are we saying that in the New Covenant period there are only offerings?

Without the tithe to guide us we are left to the clueless and carnal motions of our own partially-sanctified wills.


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## KMK

Those who advocate reassessing the giving situation every pay period according to your heart's desire, how can you expect a church to make a budget? How can the gospel minister be assured he will be able to pay his light bill?

Is you gospel minister worthy of his hire? Try hiring a plumber and telling him you are going to pay him whatever you want. He will laugh in your face.


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## Contra_Mundum

Fact:
There is no mandated % or any specific demand of regular offering by God outside the Siniatic administration. 

1 Cor:6:19-20, "your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price."

God owns you, lock-stock-and-barrel.

"Tithing" is a good lesson for teaching the grace of giving, relying on God, etc., and it has the advantage of Scriptural example and precedent. But calling this amount _God's legal obligatory "minimum" on Christians_ amounts to legalism. I would rather a person *not give*, rather than reckon his spirituality (or the spirituality of another) according to this measure of "obedience."

If Christians will not give to maintain a Minister among them, then that Minister (if he is faithful) will be provided for by God--either extraordinarily, or by moving him to a position where he is provided for.


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## Christusregnat

Contra_Mundum said:


> Fact:
> There is no mandated % or any specific demand of regular offering by God outside the Siniatic administration.



I suppose that depends on whether the examples of the partiarchs are mandatory. For instance, is tithing to the holy ministry built into God's created order, or was Adam instructed in it after the fall?

Also, are the gospels included in part of the Siniatic dispensation? If not, then tithes are commanded in the New Covenant.

Cheers,


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## Contra_Mundum

Adam,
Re. para.1, the issue should be further divided between the question "does God teach the requirement of giving/maintenance of worship," and the question of a set amount. The latter seems to be the issue of the thread.

Re. para.2, the issue is not whether the gospels are a "part of the Siniatic dispensation," but whether Christ's specific words to his Pharasiaic detractors "You tithe... and these are things you should have done..." (which is certainly true of them as men under the Siniatic) have a prescriptive ring for the prospective kingdom. Such conclusion certainly would need a deliberate alteration of the tense of the words.

Again, the issue is neither wisdom, nor practicality, nor whether or not there is an obligation to competent maintenance for the ministry of worship. The question is entirely focused on whether there is a divinely ordained "spiritual quotient" for a believer to fulfill, namely 10% (of something: net worth, net pay, gross pay, increase, etc.).


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## Wanderer

*Are Christian to Tithe?*

Is very sad. Every time I hear about this subject, I see where Christians have been improperly taught by men who do not understand that we are no longer under the law. And do to the fact that we are no longer under the law, we are not to give a tenth of what the land yields to the Levitical Priests.

Say what, is that what they are preaching. Not exactly. But for some reason or another, pastor think that they have replace the Levites and that us "lay" folk are to give them money.

This can be further from the truth.

Additionally, if you examine the scripture carefully, you will find that the tithe had nothing to do with money. It had everything to do with what the land yielded. Meaning if you were a farmer, you gave a tenth of your crop. If you were a Shepard, you gave a tenth of your sheep. However, if you were as fisher, you did not give a tenth of your fish. Get it. The tithe came from the land. 

Unfortunately, many preach that the tithe in the Old Testament was whatever your increase was. This simply was not so. A good example is the fisherman. 

Now, what I do firmly believe in is that we are to give generously. And our giving is a free will offering to the Lord. By preaching that men are to tithe, these men are preaching that God mandates a "free will offering" from us. By doing this, they are tarnishing the work of the believer, and they are also forcing many to comply to their demands in order to give the appearance of a changed heart.

I would suggest that everyone check out Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct . This man states these issue much clearer than I can.


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## Amazing Grace

I was always under the impression the tithe was part of the ceremonial law. Does this have any bearing on the subject? Since the CL is abrogated, where and why does the concept of tithe still find its way into the NC? If this has been discussed I apologize.


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## Contra_Mundum

Here is a recommendation of mine from a previous thread:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/tithing-today-13554/

oppses a "legal tithe" principle under the gospel


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## KMK

Wanderer said:


> Is very sad. Every time I hear about this subject, I see where Christians have been improperly taught by men who do not understand that we are no longer under the law.



After having read all the posts in this thread, do you really believe that is what is being taught? Who here is teaching that tithing is a legal requirement? Could you please interact with specific posts instead of making broad brush accusations?


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## Wanderer

KMK said:


> Wanderer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is very sad. Every time I hear about this subject, I see where Christians have been improperly taught by men who do not understand that we are no longer under the law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After having read all the posts in this thread, do you really believe that is what is being taught? Who here is teaching that tithing is a legal requirement? Could you please interact with specific posts instead of making broad brush accusations?
Click to expand...


KMK:

Anyone who advocates a tithe is advocating that God's law requires a 10th of their increase. 

A tithe is not a free will offering, it is a mandated requirement on Israel in order to support the Levitical Priests. And the tithe was to come from the land. Remember, the Levites did not receive an inheritance, they were made Holy to the Lord, and the Lord instituded the tithe and gave it to them as their portion.

We do not have a Levitical Priesthood anymore. We are all Priests. Therefor anyone that advocates a tithe is in essence bringing the believer back under the Law. 


Now if you want to advocate that believers are to give generously, and supporting your local church is a good start to give generously so that the Gospel might go out, I'm all for that. But I would also say, do not forget the poor in your giving. Also, I am a firm believer that you give to actual needs.


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## KMK

Wanderer said:


> Anyone who advocates a tithe is advocating that God's law *requires* a 10th of their increase.



This simply isn't true. That is like saying anyone who advocates recycling is advocating God's law 'requires' it. 

I see a great deal of wisdom in the tithing to gospel ministry, just as I see wisdom in eating shellfish in moderation. Aren't we allowed to glean 'general equity' from OT law without making it a 'requirement'?


----------

