# 1 John 5:16-17 concerning purgatory?



## Scott Shahan

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God [1] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

What does John mean when he say's that there is sin that does not lead to death? I have been talking to a Roman Catholic seminary student and this is his understanding of theses verses concerning purgatory,

"For Catholics, the scriptures are broken up into readings which are distributed throughout a 3 year cycle. If you would go to Mass everyday for three years, you would hear all of the Holy Scriptures preached. (with a few exceptions) So imagine my amazement this morning to hear from 1 John 5: 16-17."

"If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

1. This describes the state of a person that would fit the discription of purgatory.
2. Again, I must be perfect to see God face-to-face.
3. If this was me and I died with sin that is not deadly, I would need to be cleansed of the sin.
4. Purgatory is the state where the soul is purified or "purg"ed.

Here is another verse used,*1 Corinthians 3:13 *each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

I have seen Roman Catholics use the 1 John 5.16-17 passage to justify the distinction between venial and mortal sins, which they take for grounds to suppose purgatory (a separate but related issue), but it is not exactly a foundational text for them to prove purgatory. 

1 Cor. 3.13 is more commonly used by Catholics to support the doctrine of purgatory. In Matthew Poole's _Dialogue Between a Popish Priest and an English Protestant_, p. 162, the popish priest relies on that verse heavily but is refuted by the protestant. I would encourage you to read that section on purgatory and the chapter on purgatory in Loraine Boettner's _Roman Catholicism_ to better understand where the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory comes from and then consult Matthew Henry's commentary, Matthew Poole's Annotations (John Howe wrote on 1 John), and John Calvin's commentary on 1 John 5:16-17 and 1 Cor. 3, and Calvin's _Institutes_ on purgatory/mortal v. venial sins as well.

Hope this helps a bit.


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## Scott Shahan

Also I have been reading through James White's debate on Purgatory, Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White


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## Poimen

1 John 5:16-17 indicates that these things are happening now, and not in a future state. The answer to prayer is only future insofar as the prayer is offered and then the request is granted _not_ that it would occur sometime after death. 

This is clearly indicated in the following verses which relate to us the born again status of the children of God who cannot commit the sin leading unto death. 

For more on the meaning of this verse check out this thread:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/1john-5-16-a-20964/ Personally I think Rev. Winzer's argument is most persuasive.


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## Poimen

1 Corinthians 3:13 is simple. 'The day' is referenced and it is emphatic in the original. There is only one day which could be spoken of this way: "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:8 

The events described here are happening at the same time. There is no indication that the purification is happening before Christ comes but _as_ or when Christ comes. This is indicated by the reward that Christ gives, which shall be manifest only on the last day.


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## moral necessity

I think the verse refers to apostasy, as that is one of the main subjects of the letter. The "sin unto death" would represent that. "Sin not leading unto death" would be sin that does not lead to one apostasizing from Christ. 

That's what I think for now.

Blessings!


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Another resource based on 1 Cor. 3.15 is Edward West, _Purgatory a Groundless and Dangerous Doctrine_, in _The Morning Exercises_, Vol. 6, p. 126ff, available online here.


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