# Reading of the Law and Kyrie



## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

As I contemplate the depth of worship with reverence and awe with a holy fear I have started to rethink somethings further about worship and have been studing in more detail Reformed Worship. As most of you know this has led me to Exclusive Psalmody, A-Cappela Singing, and Some Corporate Prayers. I have also seen and find biblical the benediction at the end of the Worship. I have read countless books and research many articles on the topics. I have read Knox, Gill, Directory of Public Worship and John Calvin. It is John Calvin that has brought me to this point of this thread. As I read John Calvin and his Worship I have learned that he thought that the Reading the Law should be in every worship, because through the law comes the knowledge of sin and our need for Christ. In the beginning he had it sung but later said that it should be read since singing was for only the psalms. He also felt that a Corporate Biblical response was needed either after each commandment or at the end of the reading of the law. The Kyrie "Lord have mercy".

I know that the law was read during worship according to the scriptures and the kyrie is a biblical response lifted right out of the scriptures.

So my question is to all of the PB, what are your thoughts about the Reading of the Law by the Corporate Body or by the Pastor and the response of the Kyrie by the corporate body.. Tells us why you are for it or against it and your best biblical defense. 

I am starting to lean this way and I do not see any problems with it according to the RPW and find Calvins arguments for it very logical.


Coram Deo,
Michael


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## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

Any takers?


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## Dieter Schneider (Apr 11, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Any takers?


Please refer to N Needham (Audio Materials) on my blog http://calvinismonline.blogspot.com/ on Calvin's liturgy. Exclusive Psalmody cannot be traced to Calvin!


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 11, 2007)

Calvin's liturgy was great. No violation of the RPW there.


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## dannyhyde (Apr 11, 2007)

thunaer said:


> As I read John Calvin and his Worship I have learned that he thought that the Reading the Law should be in every worship, because through the law comes the knowledge of sin and our need for Christ. In the beginning he had it sung but later said that it should be read since singing was for only the psalms.



Michael,

Where did you find the above in Calvin? In his liturgy the singing of the Ten Commandments followed by the Kyrie as well as the singing of the Creed before the Holy Supper was in his liturgy of Strasbourg, while in Geneva they sang the Creed but not the Commandments.

Not sure where you are reading this?


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## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

A few sources.. I will mention one and quote the source...

Spindlework.com



> In the year after Calvin's return to Geneva, an important book by Calvin about liturgy was published; in it he made mention in the title already that he would like to go back to the custom of the early church. He was aiming to continue what he had written already before in his Institutes, and what he had worked out in Strasbourg. Accordingly there were five ways in which it was different from the order of Strasbourg:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Michael 





dannyhyde said:


> Michael,
> 
> Where did you find the above in Calvin? In his liturgy the singing of the Ten Commandments followed by the Kyrie as well as the singing of the Creed before the Holy Supper was in his liturgy of Strasbourg, while in Geneva they sang the Creed but not the Commandments.
> 
> Not sure where you are reading this?


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## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

I really don't want to turn this thread into about Exclusive Psalmody.. 

The thread is about Reading the Law in Worship and the Kyrie response.

I will repeat the question...

"So my question is to all of the PB, what are your thoughts about the Reading of the Law by the Corporate Body or by the Pastor and the response of the Kyrie by the corporate body.. Tells us why you are for it or against it and your best biblical defense."


Michael


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 11, 2007)

I think the reading of the law is great. We are commanded to read Scripture so in reading it there is no violation of the RPW. Calvin's intent was right as well in holding up the law, not only to shw us our sin and lead us to Christ but in showing us the rule of righteousness we live as Christians. The Kyrie is fine too. as a form of prayer there is no violation of the RPW. I do think though that to adopt Calvin's liturgy would require some congregational education. I attended some Dutch Reformed churches which followed it pretty closely and I found it great. But it does tend to create a longer service which many Americans unfortunately don't like.


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## MW (Apr 11, 2007)

Methinks if the minister reads from Old and New Testament he will read both law and gospel in biblical balance.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

Personally I love longer services.. the longer the better..... 

Michael




Puritan Sailor said:


> I think the reading of the law is great. We are commanded to read Scripture so in reading it there is no violation of the RPW. Calvin's intent was right as well in holding up the law, not only to shw us our sin and lead us to Christ but in showing us the rule of righteousness we live as Christians. The Kyrie is fine too. as a form of prayer there is no violation of the RPW. I do think though that to adopt Calvin's liturgy would require some congregational education. I attended some Dutch Reformed churches which followed it pretty closely and I found it great. But it does tend to create a longer service which many Americans unfortunately don't like.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 11, 2007)

Most of the churches I have been in have been long... An hour, sometimes an hour and half just for the sermon. Another hour for the prayers, singing, collection, reading of old and new testaments, call of worship psalm, etc.

Thats over 2 hours and sometimes beyond that if the sermon goes longer... I still crave for more and sad when it ends... I have no problem going for 3 hours or even the 4 hour puritan services....

Another example for me anyway was my Marriage Covenant service. It took us over 3 hours to be wedded. We even cut some music out of our wedding in order to bring the time down to 3 hours... We had 3 sermonettes, Unity Candle, Charge, Foot washing between husband and wife, congregational singing, Covenant vow exchange, ring exchange, and tons of music which consisted of duets and solos and instrumental, and other typical wedding stuff.. 

It was a joy because we were covenanting between us and God and we were worshipping God. We did not want it to end, Sort of  .

The same goes for Sabbath worship.. I care less how long it goes.. I crave it and do not want it to end.. The more the better... It is a Day of Worship that we are suppose to give not just an hour.. Which lead into another topic for another thread about Sabbath Night Worship.... Anyway, The more the better should be any Christians response to Worship, after all It is the chief End of Man.

Michael



thunaer said:


> Personally I love longer services.. the longer the better.....
> 
> Michael


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 11, 2007)

Anyone remember that mid-80s rock song by Mr. Mister called "Kyrie"?

Forever and ever I thought it was a catchy tune with a stupid lyric that said "Carry a Laser", I finally figured out the chorus actually says "Kyrie eleison" as in Lord, have mercy.

"Kyrie eleison down the road that I must travel
Kyrie eleison through the darkness of the night."

The song is here for anyone in need of a memory jog:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb0Gak88lDA"]YouTube - Mr. Mister- Kyrie[/ame]


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Personally I love longer services.. the longer the better.....
> 
> Michael



I definitely agree


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