# Should I Learn Classical Greek or Skip to Koine?



## Davidius (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi all,

Foreign Language is one of my favorite subjects. I took three years of Latin in high school and will be picking it back up this summer, am almost fluent in German, and have a working knowledge of Dutch. I would love to learn biblical Greek and Hebrew at some point even if I don't go to seminary but I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to learn Attic Greek before studying Koine, perhaps to be able to trace the evolution of words, not to mention being able to read great ancient Greek literature in the original language. If I were to do that, would the transition to Koine be difficult? How different are they and is Koine substantially easier than Attic? I have heard of Machen and Mounce's books but am not familiar with any Attic textbooks that would be good for personal study. Is anyone familiar with one?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2006)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Foreign Language is one of my favorite subjects. I took three years of Latin in high school and will be picking it back up this summer, am almost fluent in German, and have a working knowledge of Dutch. I would love to learn biblical Greek and Hebrew at some point even if I don't go to seminary but I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to learn Attic Greek before studying Koine, perhaps to be able to trace the evolution of words, not to mention being able to read great ancient Greek literature in the original language. If I were to do that, would the transition to Koine be difficult? How different are they and is Koine substantially easier than Attic? I have heard of Machen and Mounce's books but am not familiar with any Attic textbooks that would be good for personal study. Is anyone familiar with one?



Here are a couple of threads where I comment generally on the issue of Koine/Attic:
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=1213
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=2221
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=11805

Here is a thread with good resources on the internet (I especially like the textkit site):
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=2230

Here is a thread where I give some advice (see post 3):
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=10259

The bottom line is that if you have the time and background (and Latin counts), then I would learn Attic. It makes Koine easier (downright simple) and gives you access to a broad range of literature. Also, it helps you to avoid pitfalls and crutches that seminary Koine men fall into - "I don't have to learn that word, it's only used 3 times" "I don't need to know that grammar," etc


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi David,

Practically, it's not really necessary. It's useful to some degree, especially in reading Luke/Acts and Hebrews but it won't help you in the johannine lit or Matthew or even much in Paul (except maybe a little in Philippians).

So, it's a matter of goal and vocation. If your goal is to become as learned as possible and/or to develop your gifts to their maximum, then go for it.

If your goal is to accomplish a task (read NT Greek) then it's helpful not necessary.

Whatever you do, don't use the JACT texts. It's a horrible system. I think Basil Gildersleeve (Machen's prof at Johns Hopkins) did a classical text. I know he did a Latin Grammar. I can remember an old black greek grammar, but I can't recall the author or title. That was the one they used at my University before they switched to the JACT texts. 

Best,

rsc



CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Foreign Language is one of my favorite subjects. I took three years of Latin in high school and will be picking it back up this summer, am almost fluent in German, and have a working knowledge of Dutch. I would love to learn biblical Greek and Hebrew at some point even if I don't go to seminary but I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to learn Attic Greek before studying Koine, perhaps to be able to trace the evolution of words, not to mention being able to read great ancient Greek literature in the original language. If I were to do that, would the transition to Koine be difficult? How different are they and is Koine substantially easier than Attic? I have heard of Machen and Mounce's books but am not familiar with any Attic textbooks that would be good for personal study. Is anyone familiar with one?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2006)

These grammars/texts are good old texts (and free):

http://www.textkit.com/greek_grammar.php

in my opinion, you do not sufficiently know Greek unless you can at some level do Greek composition. Most ministers know less Greek than the Sophomore Classicist. I was just laughing yesterday with a friend about the state of languages in the Church today. When I was in Grad School, we were reading the equivalent of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians and 1 Timothy combined each day in Greek. And that included Thucydides, who makes Hebrews or Luke look like See Spot Run.


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

Dear Fred,

As one who deals with sometimes discouraged Greek students (my office is right next to Steve Baugh's so if he's not in and I am...) let me say that asking of them to be able to compose is a little much.

It's a fine goal and minister should aim at that goal, to becomes excellent in their grasp of the biblical languages. We consider that students graduating are just beginning (rather than finishing) their education.

In a day when many seminaries are simply teaching student to use BibleWorks or whatever, we continue to insist that students actually learn to read Greek and to be able to sight-read (for final exams, such as advanced Bib Studies or Systematics courses where English Bibles are not permitted). Significant progress can be made in 3-4 years of study (when students are also learning Hebrew and sometimes Latin at the same time!).

I'm often impressed with the level of proficiency that our students have attained and I'm thankful for their hard work and dedication.

Still, I don't want to discourage beginners and those still struggling to master paradigms and vocabulary by sending the message: You really haven't done anything yet. 

My word to them is: keep going. Some day you'll get to where Fred is. He didn't get there overnight. He got there by years of hard work and diligent study. Keep going and you can catch up to Fred.

rsc



fredtgreco said:


> These grammars/texts are good old texts (and free):
> 
> http://www.textkit.com/greek_grammar.php
> 
> in my opinion, you do not sufficiently know Greek unless you can at some level do Greek composition. Most ministers know less Greek than the Sophomore Classicist. I was just laughing yesterday with a friend about the state of languages in the Church today. When I was in Grad School, we were reading the equivalent of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians and 1 Timothy combined each day in Greek. And that included Thucydides, who makes Hebrews or Luke look like See Spot Run.


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## Davidius (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Hi David,
> 
> Practically, it's not really necessary. It's useful to some degree, especially in reading Luke/Acts and Hebrews but it won't help you in the johannine lit or Matthew or even much in Paul (except maybe a little in Philippians).
> 
> ...




Perhaps I should just go all the way then, since while accomplishing the task of reading NT Greek is a goal of mine, I am interested enough in the study of language in general to assume that I'd appreciate the benefits of learning Attic as well. 

Could you explain what a JACT text is?


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## Davidius (Dec 29, 2006)

fredtgreco said:


> These grammars/texts are good old texts (and free):
> 
> http://www.textkit.com/greek_grammar.php
> 
> in my opinion, you do not sufficiently know Greek unless you can at some level do Greek composition. Most ministers know less Greek than the Sophomore Classicist. I was just laughing yesterday with a friend about the state of languages in the Church today. When I was in Grad School, we were reading the equivalent of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians and 1 Timothy combined each day in Greek. And that included Thucydides, who makes Hebrews or Luke look like See Spot Run.



Thanks for all the links and advice, Fred!

Are you familiar with this text by any chance? 

Amazon.com: Introduction to Attic Greek: Books: Donald J. Mastronarde

I can get it on Amazon Marketplace for a little cheaper than the one I saw you had mentioned by Hansen and Quinn on one of those other threads, and it has great reviews as well. However, if Hansen and Quinn is better I'd be willing to pay the extra few dollars. I'll definitely keep the Textkit handy for reference, too, although I'd rather have a textbook in front of me when I'm actually plowing my way through things.


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

JACT = 

Joint Association of Classics Teachers. As I recall, it was a British system. It was adopted at UCLA, Nebraska, and others.

Another benefit of learning classical Greek is that will expose you to some foundational W. lit in its original language.

rsc



CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Perhaps I should just go all the way then, since while accomplishing the task of reading NT Greek is a goal of mine, I am interested enough in the study of language in general to assume that I'd appreciate the benefits of learning Attic as well.
> 
> Could you explain what a JACT text is?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Dear Fred,
> 
> As one who deals with sometimes discouraged Greek students (my office is right next to Steve Baugh's so if he's not in and I am...) let me say that asking of them to be able to compose is a little much.
> 
> ...




Scott, I agree with you. It is way too much to ask a man in the midst of seminary to attain even to a rudimentary knowledge of the languages. I have been doing Greek for more than 20 years now. My comments was towards those who somehow feel that they have done all they need to do if they pass the seminary level language courses. That is indeed just the beginning. A couple of semesters of a language, learning a few dozen words, and reading a minuscule amounts of the language does not permit someone to stand in front of people and say "this would be _much better_ translated..." As soon as I hear than from a young minister, I am wearied and hindered in my listening.

I also think composition is not beyond upper level seminary students. Obviously, you start small. Get out your NASB, and pick a really easy passage, like something in 1 John. Try and translate a couple of sentences into Greek. Use helps (Bibleworks) if necessary. The key to composition (which was standard a century ago, and virtually unheard of today) is that it helps you to _think_ in the foreign language.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Dear Fred,
> 
> As one who deals with sometimes discouraged Greek students (my office is right next to Steve Baugh's so if he's not in and I am...) let me say that asking of them to be able to compose is a little much.
> 
> ...





CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Thanks for all the links and advice, Fred!
> 
> Are you familiar with this text by any chance?
> 
> ...




I don't know this text specifically, but the reviews look good. Many of the reviewers also compare it to Hansen & Quinn and it seems the two are relatively similar.

If you live anywhere near a major university, I would suggest going to its library (if they have a copy) and seeing the two side by side. You also might want to check some bookstores. The bottom line is that both seem good, and you can supplement some of the grammar with online aids like textkit (i.e. you want to read more about substantive participles, so you can check several pdf files on textkit, or even print those pages out).


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, I agree with most of what you say, but based on what I see in exams and papers our students have to gain a little more than a rudimentary level of proficiency in order to pass even their non-language classes. 

Yes, Sr students (3rd or 4th year) can probably do a little composition. I agree with you re the value.

Yes, the pulpit is no place for such comments by novices and even experts should be circumspect about giving folk reason to doubt good English translations.

rsc



fredtgreco said:


> Scott, I agree with you. It is way too much to ask a man in the midst of seminary to attain even to a rudimentary knowledge of the languages. I have been doing Greek for more than 20 years now. My comments was towards those who somehow feel that they have done all they need to do if they pass the seminary level language courses. That is indeed just the beginning. A couple of semesters of a language, learning a few dozen words, and reading a minuscule amounts of the language does not permit someone to stand in front of people and say "this would be _much better_ translated..." As soon as I hear than from a young minister, I am wearied and hindered in my listening.
> 
> I also think composition is not beyond upper level seminary students. Obviously, you start small. Get out your NASB, and pick a really easy passage, like something in 1 John. Try and translate a couple of sentences into Greek. Use helps (Bibleworks) if necessary. The key to composition (which was standard a century ago, and virtually unheard of today) is that it helps you to _think_ in the foreign language.


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