# Hands in Worship



## jwithnell (Aug 27, 2009)

What should your hands be doing during worship? Because of the emotionalism of some branches of Christianity, I think we reformed folks have concluded: sit on them. But I'm not sure that's what we see in scripture. There, we see hands lifted in prayer and praise. So what do you understand to be the most Biblical practice here?


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

I often lift my hands in prayer during the service, but I am the pastor. As far as the congregation goes, there should be uniformity (or unity) in whichever action is taken, In my humble opinion. If only a few people lift hands, that is distracting from worship. On the other hand (no pun intended), the Missus and I once attended a PCA church where virtually everyone (congregation around 200) lifted hands during the doxology. It was not distracting (though surprising the first time we saw it!) and very reverent.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 27, 2009)

I dont think that we can set a rule of you must or must not lift your hands. Personally I am not much of a hand raiser but I know people who are and it is not distracting to me as I am well used to it.


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## Guido's Brother (Aug 27, 2009)

Depends on what part of the worship service you're talking about. For instance, your hands might be doing something different during the sermon (which is also "worship") than during prayer, song, or offertory.


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## ewenlin (Aug 27, 2009)

Guido's Brother said:


> Depends on what part of the worship service you're talking about. For instance, your hands might be doing something different during the sermon (which is also "worship") than during prayer, song, or offertory.



Raise your hand during the sermon? Got a question? Hahaha. sorry


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 27, 2009)

Guido's Brother said:


> Depends on what part of the worship service you're talking about. For instance, your hands might be doing something different during the sermon (which is also "worship") than during prayer, song, or offertory.



If you want to go this route... our whole lives are an act of worship so..... oh never mind.


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

Why must there be uniformity? Why are some distracted by the (biblical) actions of others during worship? If you are raising your hands to draw attention to yourself, that's clearly problematic. But I think it is also problematic to hinder biblical expressions of worship. Sometimes I think we risk losing the individual in our attempt at unity. That I worship with you doesn't mean that I don't also worship individually. If I'm having to refrain from biblical expressions of worship to avoid distracting or offending you, then you've distracted me by putting an unbiblical restraint on my worship. I have to be thinking about you instead of God. Distraction works both ways.


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## Knoxienne (Aug 27, 2009)

Just my opinion, but... 

The lifting of holy hands mentioned in scripture, like many things, is tied to the temple, before Christ. So many outward things were done to point to Christ back then. We have clean hands because of Christ's redemption and we have the real thing, not just the symbol now. Why do we need to raise our hands? I can understand the pastor doing it during the invocation and benediction, since it's just the pastor and he's praying for us (acting as a priest). And I actually don't like to see a pastor do it too much either, because it seems Romish.

I don't do it and I don't like to see it in church. To me, it's hyper-emotional and and has ties with charismania and a feminized, matriarchal church-structure, i.e., emotionalism, sentimentality and subjectivism. 

Again, that's just the way I see it. I'm not judging anyone with another view and I'm not judging anyone who does it or advocates it of being unorthodox. I'm just a minimalist and like the bare essentials in worship.


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

1 Tim. 2:8 -- not old testament


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## Knoxienne (Aug 27, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> 1 Tim. 2:8 -- not old testament



The temple wasn't destroyed yet.


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## LeeJUk (Aug 27, 2009)

Yeah I think we've over-reacted to the charismatic movement. So much so that we are all very pious and nicely dressed and such but really I mean a lot of time our worship can just be deadness. In fact I think that one thing we need to get back to is really considering the cross, if the cross doesn't make us emotional you know, maybe there's a problem with us. 

We must worship in truth, but we must also worship in Spirit.

Also knoxienne, even if the temple wasn't destroyed yet. Did Paul ever say the reason you are to raise your hands is because the temple is still there, or that this practice should cease when the temple has gone?


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> chbrooking said:
> 
> 
> > 1 Tim. 2:8 -- not old testament
> ...



By this line of reasoning, we are free to accept what we want and reject what we don't like.


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## rbcbob (Aug 27, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> What should your hands be doing during worship? Because of the emotionalism of some branches of Christianity, I think we reformed folks have concluded: sit on them. But I'm not sure that's what we see in scripture. There, we see hands lifted in prayer and praise. So what do you understand to be the most Biblical practice here?



I try to make the distinction between the private and the corporate. When in my "prayer closet" I may kneel, stand, sit, lay prostrate, or any combination of the above. But when I enter the public assembly I check my personal preferences at the door in order to meet the "all things done decently and in order" principal.


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## Megan Mozart (Aug 27, 2009)

My church is pretty mixed I think. Maybe slightly more than half of the people don't raise their hands, and the other half do. 

I raise my hands sometimes. Actually, during most songs, I am often doing something with my hands, whether they're raised with arms outstretched, or just simply one arm with an open palm, or I clap my hands, or a fold them together. I don't really think about it. I get pretty emotional during worship (a mixture of love for God and I am always one to get into the music) and naturally for me what follows as an outpouring my emotions is a variety of movements. 

I have never thought about if the bible asks us to do it a certain way. To me I've always thought of it as, to some people it's natural to be physical, to others, it's natural to stay put.

If scripture doesn't say we should do it one way or the other, maybe we could all benefit from trying the opposite thing. That's how I started. But then you're not focusing on Christ. Or maybe this doesn't matter at all and we don't have to think about it. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

1 Timothy 2:8 is also tied to the lifting up of hands in prayer, not in song.

As far as uniformity goes, should that not be a characteristic of worship? Hopefully, everyone is singing the same songs, listening to the same prayers, etc. I would think we would critical of churches were some of the congregation is embroiled in liturgical dance, some is singing, some is painting pictures, etc. etc.

I will confession that the "unity/uniformity" idea is not original with me. I heard Joey Pipa make that point several years ago and it has always stuck with me, For what it's worth.


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## SemperEruditio (Aug 27, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> 1 Timothy 2:8 is also tied to the lifting up of hands in prayer, not in song.
> 
> As far as uniformity goes, should that not be a characteristic of worship? Hopefully, everyone is singing the same songs, listening to the same prayers, etc. I would think we would critical of churches were some of the congregation is embroiled in liturgical dance, some is singing, some is painting pictures, etc. etc.
> 
> I will confession that the "unity/uniformity" idea is not original with me. I heard Joey Pipa make that point several years ago and it has always stuck with me, For what it's worth.



That's a bit of a stretch no? How far are we taking uniformity? Dress code? How about assigning people to pews based on height? Should it be tall in the front or in the back?


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

Prayer or song -- both part of worship. And there's plenty of evidence in the Psalms. I just chose this b/c it is NT. Shouldn't we assume continuity unless discontinuity is explicit? I don't recall there being a prohibition or reversal of the many places in the Psalms that call us to lift our hands in song.

As for unity/uniformity, where is the line to be drawn? Should we all wear the same things, too? Should we only pray in unison? Is there no place for individual prayer or reflection? I'm all for order, but order does not require absolute uniformity. Demanding utter uniformity for the sake of unity risks, In my humble opinion, making our worship mechanical. As I said, I worship with the body, and in the same Spirit. But nevertheless, *I* worship.

-----Added 8/27/2009 at 02:18:58 EST-----

Sorry Frank,
you beat me to post


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

SemperEruditio said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > 1 Timothy 2:8 is also tied to the lifting up of hands in prayer, not in song.
> ...



No, it would be a bit of a stretch to take the analogy too far. It is _actions _in worship being discussed, not dress or seating order. What takes place in worship should be done to promote the unity of the body of Christ, not facilitate divisions within. And certainly we should not promote the idea that those who lift their hands are more pious than those who not, which is the proverbial elephant in the room in this discussion. I know you are not saying this, but it is a possible concern if such a division takes place within the context of worship.


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

So I should be thinking about how you may be thinking about what I'm thinking when I worship? Wow! This is just the problem! You (plural) are suggesting that raising hands is distracting, but so is a restriction on it. And such a restriction isn't biblical. In fact, if anything, those who aren't doing what the Bible has indicated is appropriate in worship, are on the thinner ice than those who are.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> Prayer or song -- both part of worship. And there's plenty of evidence in the Psalms. I just chose this b/c it is NT. Shouldn't we assume continuity unless discontinuity is explicit? I don't recall there being a prohibition or reversal of the many places in the Psalms that call us to lift our hands in song.



The question was posed about how this relates to Temple worship, you responded:



> 1 Tim. 2:8 -- not old testament



And I merely pointed out that verse is tied to prayer, not lifting hands in songs of praise unto good. I do not disagree with your comments about the psalms, but lifting that verse out of its immediate context can also be problematic. I was pointing out there is a distinction to be made so that we do not view 1 Timothy 2:8 as an exegetical magic bullet.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> So I should be thinking about how you may be thinking about what I'm thinking when I worship? Wow! This is just the problem! You (plural) are suggesting that raising hands is distracting, but so is a restriction on it. And such a restriction isn't biblical. In fact, if anything, those who aren't doing what the Bible has indicated is appropriate in worship, are on the thinner ice than those who are.



Let me make a correction in my use of terminology. "Unity" and "uniformity" do not mean the same thing, and I should not be conflating the two. More properly speaking, we should have "unity" in worship, but "uniformity" may be quite another thing.

Raising hands can be distracting. So can not raising hands. There should be broad agreement and understanding in the church. Obviously, anyone reading my first post on this thread would see that I am not in objection to it, since I do it and since I once attended a church which did it (in unity). But I also became a Christian in the late 1980s and was quickly exposed to a neo-charismatic culture where is was _expected _you do such things in "worship" and if you did not you were not viewed as being as spiritual as others. This is something I, as a pastor, would want to guard against. But I have suggested it be "restricted," either.


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## SemperEruditio (Aug 27, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...



Then help me understand. Seems as a bit of a false dilemma in that we either all do it or we all do not. There would also be the issue of at which joint do we raise our hands? Do we raise in only bending the elbow or do we raise via the shoulder? In sticking with just the action of raising our hands do we then not also have to discuss palm placement? Do the palms face up, with the back of the hand facing the congregant or do the palms face up with the back of the hand facing away from the congregant? Can the palms be in a parallel position to each other?

If unity of action is the goal then with all these variables it would seem to me that the better option is not to have the hands get involved.

Is this a RPW issue? Not being funny. I'm interested and thanks to PB have realized how out of whack corporate worship has become. This hands issue however seems a bit much but whole regulated worship is as well.

-----Added 8/27/2009 at 02:40:57 EST-----

Nevermind. I see I was talking about uniformity and not unity. My bad.


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks Tim, that clarified a lot. I don't think we are in great disagreement. The only place we might disagree is this -- I don't think it would be appropriate for the church to ask people NOT to raise their hands in worship. I'm all for unity. And I appreciate your distinction. Even uniformity isn't a bad thing -- unless it, itself, is a distraction or a hindrance to worship.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

SemperEruditio said:


> Nevermind. I see I was talking about uniformity and not unity. My bad.



No, I am one who was being imprecise in my terminology, and did not mean to cause dissension or misunderstanding. I was trying to convey an idea and was clumsy with my word choice.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> Thanks Tim, that clarified a lot. I don't think we are in great disagreement. The only place we might disagree is this -- I don't think it would be appropriate for the church to ask people NOT to raise their hands in worship. I'm all for unity. And I appreciate your distinction. Even uniformity isn't a bad thing -- unless it, itself, is a distraction or a hindrance to worship.



If the situation comes up in a church (hopefully a mature church), I think that teaching on these things would be helpful. For example, as you have pointing out, if you do so by showing biblical patterns, etc., you could bring along a congregation into greater unity so that there is not misunderstanding.

I know this will be a shock (!), but Christians can be quite guilty of jumping the gun and misunderstanding things. Someone could come into your service and see an infant baptism and leave thinking you are a crypto-Catholic. You could rail against a premillennial dispensational view of the rapture, and someone could misunderstand and think you are a liberal denying the second coming of Christ. You could emphasize the bodily resurrection to such a degree that someone might think you are denying heaven (or even promoting "soul sleep"). While we should certainly not give quarter to immaturity and sloppy thinking among our members, we should also (and with great patience!) endeavor to instruct them so that they may be brought, by the Holy Spirit and the Word, to a place where there is broad agreement and understanding of these things. Including worship.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

Joshua said:


> They should be holding the Psalter.



Better yet, they could have it memorized and then use both hands. 

We always end presbytery and Synod meetings with the singing of Psalm 133 (ours is probably slightly different to yours, with a different tune, but based on the Scottish Psalter version). It astounds me that so many godly men have to pick up the psalter to sing it! In our denomination, that one should be like breathing!


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## Herald (Aug 27, 2009)

Perhaps we should rephrase the question. Does scripture prohibit the raising of hands in worship?


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## Whitefield (Aug 27, 2009)

Follow-on issue to this one: Should you tap your feet to the music in worship?


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## Herald (Aug 27, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Follow-on issue to this one: Should you tap your feet to the music in worship?



If our music had a tune to tap feet to, I would. If I received any stares, I'd stare back. Either that or do the funky chicken. Bob taught me how to do it in a very dignified Reformed manner.


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## Peairtach (Aug 27, 2009)

Lifting hands during a prayer by an individual man while leading prayer is acceptable. See what our Apostle, Paul, says. Also the pastor or elder may at the benediction.

There is nothing in Scripture about collective "wave-offerings" while singing.


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## toddpedlar (Aug 27, 2009)

Joshua said:


> They should be holding the Psalter.



That approximates my answer, which was going to be "at the ends of your arms".


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## Wayne (Aug 27, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > They should be holding the Psalter.
> ...



I was going to say, "Limp, hanging at your sides, in good Presbyterian fashion."


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

Herald said:


> Either that or do the funky chicken. Bob taught me how to do it in a very dignified Reformed manner.



I must have missed that day in the Moderator 101 class (or I stepped out to power my wig). You must share!


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## Pergamum (Aug 27, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> I often lift my hands in prayer during the service, but I am the pastor. As far as the congregation goes, there should be uniformity (or unity) in whichever action is taken, In my humble opinion. If only a few people lift hands, that is distracting from worship. On the other hand (no pun intended), the Missus and I once attended a PCA church where virtually everyone (congregation around 200) lifted hands during the doxology. It was not distracting (though surprising the first time we saw it!) and very reverent.



Does there need to be uniformity in all thing?

-----Added 8/27/2009 at 05:47:48 EST-----



Joshua said:


> They should be holding the Psalter.



I suppose you could raise your hands and tap your feet to the Psalter too...those Genevan jigs are pretty catchy.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 27, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > I often lift my hands in prayer during the service, but I am the pastor. As far as the congregation goes, there should be uniformity (or unity) in whichever action is taken, In my humble opinion. If only a few people lift hands, that is distracting from worship. On the other hand (no pun intended), the Missus and I once attended a PCA church where virtually everyone (congregation around 200) lifted hands during the doxology. It was not distracting (though surprising the first time we saw it!) and very reverent.
> ...



No, but there needs to be unity. I distinguished between the two in a later post and apologized for my clumsy use of the two terms.


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## coramdeo (Aug 27, 2009)

for what it's worth, my Exegeses Ready Research Bible renders Psalm 9:1 thus...

_I will praise thee_ *shall extend hands* ._ O Lord,_ *Yah Veh,*
with my whole heart; 
_I will shew forth_ *shall scribe* all thy marvelous works.

I haven't taken the time to look it up but I am sure it occurs other places in the Psalms as well. So lifting hands in worship seems to this layman to have warrant.


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## blhowes (Aug 27, 2009)

Megan Mozart said:


> I have never thought about if the bible asks us to do it a certain way. To me I've always thought of it as, to some people it's natural to be physical, to others, it's natural to stay put.
> 
> If scripture doesn't say we should do it one way or the other, maybe we could all benefit from trying the opposite thing...


I'm one of those "stay put" types. I think if I were to try the opposite thing, and started raising my hands, after a few seconds I'd probably be asking myself, "Why do you have your hands up in the air?". It'd be such an unnatural thing to do. 

I am, though, interested in trying to understand the "other side". For those who do raise your hands while singing or during other times of worship, why do you do it? What are you expressing to God when you raise your hands?


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## Peairtach (Aug 27, 2009)

What's wrong with aged and holy men - full of the sap of the Spirit (Psalm 104:16) - with long flowing white beards reverently leading the prayers with arms held aloft like the patriarchs, prophets, priests, kings and apostles of old. 

What's not right with it?


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## Spinningplates2 (Aug 27, 2009)

During Worship when a person lifts their arms it cannot help but be noticed and takes away focus from God. Even if that is not the purpose of the person whos lifted their arms some people will wonder if that person is more spiritual, or they may think that is what it takes to get noticed as someone "who is not afraid" to Praise the Lord.

Clapping the hands...no way. 

People have been worshipping the Lord for two thousand years and it seems a common link down a possible wrong road, i.e. Montanist, Shakers, Anti-baptist is the mocking of God "Chosen Frozen" for the way the simply sit and listen to the Word being preached.

That being said, I know a ton of people who I love disagree and lift their hands all the time in the Churches they attend. But they also love to wear cutoffs and sandlles to Church also.


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## chbrooking (Aug 27, 2009)

I am amazed at how worshipers are being judged -- and with absolute confidence -- as to their motives and thoughts. I am also amazed at how the persnickety judges are more focused on what OTHERS are doing, and are so easily distracted. When I was in school, we had a way of dealing with distractions -- SIT UP FRONT. If someone's hands in the air is going to take your mind off God, then sit closer to the front. Get the speck out of your own eye before you presume there's a log in another worshiper's. Don't ridicule them for worshipping in a biblical manner. Just because you aren't comfortable with it -- or just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong. The Bible condones (prescribes?) it; who are you do disapprove? Some have indicated that they wouldn't feel natural worshipping with their hands raised. Okay, but you can't determine what is "natural" for someone else -- especially when, not only is there no prohibition, there is explicit permission (command?).

I apologize for what may be perceived as venom -- it's not really. But the matter hits kind of close to home for me, for reasons I won't go into.


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## jwithnell (Aug 27, 2009)

Wow! I didn't realize I was going to be away from the computer so long. Thanks for this marvelous discussion!

Many of you have raised ideas or concerns that have gone through my own mind -- the need for worship to be dignified and in order, the unity of the body, and so forth. Someone asked why? Two thoughts come to mind; one, if there does seem to be some Biblical basis. Secondly, it is a reaction of my own in private worship.

I was purposely vague about _when_ in worship to see what folks would say. The closest we come to any of this in my own church is a fella that opens his hands up slightly in front of himself to "receive" the benediction. (We're not exactly foot stomping, waving kind of folks, but a great group of believers.)

Sometime in the last year or so, I heard a respected teacher say that he hasn't seen a place in the Bible where everyone is sitting down with their heads bowed in prayer -- the modern most common "manner." Lifting hands, kneeling, or both might be more appropriate. (Although I understand the public/private distinction -- going down on your face might not be the most orderly thing to do in public.)

I think this is a valuable discussion. Thanks!


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Aug 27, 2009)

At my church we are invited to raise our hands for the singing of the doxology. We are also invited to stretch forth our hands to receive the benediction. This is a corporate action. But is the unity destroyed when there are people present who do not raise their hands? Similarly if someone chooses not to sing is the unity destroyed? Should we then not sing?


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## jwithnell (Aug 28, 2009)

> But is the unity destroyed when there are people present who do not raise their hands?



I guess that's the 90 million dollar question. God is our audience and our worship is to be orderly. We worship together, but it is (or should be) also an expression of own adoration and love. So I'm really stumped on this one!


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## Honor (Aug 28, 2009)

I would like to know how you can not raise your hands??? When you are standing with your brothers and sisters worshipping the Most Holy God, singing praises to Him how an you not raise your hands or stop the tears of love and emotion? When I watch a football game I jump up and yell when my team makes a great play. When my son works hard to accomplish something I praise him with hugs and our little happy dance. I play air guitar in the car on a new spring day after a long winter.... How then can we not praise our God... the Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Savior of our wretched soul with even an ounce of emotion. David danced till he was naked. The Lord had special angels flying around the throne night and day praising Him, why should we who have waaaay more to be grateful for than the angels go into corprate worship and stand there like our hope, our joy is no more than a cod fish?


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## rbcbob (Aug 28, 2009)

*Responses to God's presence may vary.*



Honor said:


> I would like to know how you can not raise your hands??? When you are standing with your brothers and sisters worshipping the Most Holy God, singing praises to Him how an you not raise your hands or stop the tears of love and emotion? When I watch a football game I jump up and yell when my team makes a great play. When my son works hard to accomplish something I praise him with hugs and our little happy dance. I play air guitar in the car on a new spring day after a long winter.... How then can we not praise our God... the Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Savior of our wretched soul with even an ounce of emotion. David danced till he was naked. The Lord had special angels flying around the throne night and day praising Him, why should we who have waaaay more to be grateful for than the angels go into corprate worship and stand there like our hope, our joy is no more than a cod fish?



Responses to God's presence may vary.



> Isaiah 6:1-5 Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!" 4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts."


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## Honor (Aug 28, 2009)

yep... that about sums it up


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## Prufrock (Aug 28, 2009)

I have a series of questions to pose, but will begin them by stating that I have no strict problem with the raising of hands while singing _per se_; and I also feel that this is an issue which needs to be handled with great care and delicacy. The first question is this:

For those who _do_ raise hands while singing in public worship, do you also do the same during the reading and/or preaching of the word?


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## Marrow Man (Aug 28, 2009)

rbcbob said:


> Responses to God's presence may vary.


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## chbrooking (Aug 28, 2009)

No. Why is that significant?



Prufrock said:


> I have a series of questions to pose, but will begin them by stating that I have no strict problem with the raising of hands while singing _per se_; and I also feel that this is an issue which needs to be handled with great care and delicacy. The first question is this:
> 
> For those who _do_ raise hands while singing in public worship, do you also do the same during the reading and/or preaching of the word?


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## Scottish Lass (Aug 28, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> No. Why is that significant?



My answer may vary from Prufrock's, but I would say because the reading and preaching of the Word are also worship. Why would one limit it to music (if one does so)?


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## Prufrock (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for weighing in, Clark (and note, I am not attempting with this question to argue or convince: this really is simply a question on my part).

I find it significant because I don't see the difference. In both elements, the content is the Word of God: the difference is two fold: 1.) The subject -- in the reading of the Word, the subject being the pastor; in singing, the congregation; and 2.) The form -- in the former, the Word is read simply; in the latter, rhythmically.

I don't understand why the two should produce differing emotional responses. If we feel a burning to desire to do so when singing the Word, why not also when reading or hearing the word? (Since, I imagine, no one wants to say its the same emotional quality of music which one would find during the singing of Free Bird at a Skynyrd concert that makes us sway or lift our hands).


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## eqdj (Aug 29, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> What should your hands be doing during worship?



Holding the hymnal, duh!

j/k


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## Marrow Man (Aug 29, 2009)

eqdj said:


> jwithnell said:
> 
> 
> > What should your hands be doing during worship?
> ...



I heard someone joke once that this is the reason why so many churches have switched to PowerPoint -- so that your hands are free to wave during the service!


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## Vonnie Dee (Aug 29, 2009)

I agree that no one should be forced to raise their hands if they choose not to. However, I would feel stiffled if I was banned from it. As it is now, no one has said not to raise my hands but there are about 10 people who raise their hands high as we sing on Sunday. I generally don't raise my hands higher than my shoulders if I do. I appreciate not having to hold a hynmal, even though we sing hymns, so that my hands are free to lift if I so choose. I don't raise my hand during Bible reading. However, I do say, "Amen" if I'm moved to do so.  And this tidbit is free. If we wanted to kneel during worship there are lots of orderly ways to do it. The Catholics and the Muslims come to mind. Finally, when I read about worship in the Bible, the picture in my mind is very different than what I participate in on Sunday. Oh, and here's one more  on the unity, everybody the same topic. I am the only woman in my church that covers for worship. My husband and I think that is required. Do I not wear it because everyone else isn't?


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism. That and I just feel uncomfortable doing it. 
So I construct an argument to vindicate my tastes and establish my opinion as being pious.


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## he beholds (Aug 29, 2009)

I know that I would prefer to lift my hands but don't, because I am thinking about other people. So that is also distracting. 

And there, now you all know that I am self-conscious. 

I think the reading of the word varies from the singing of it. If it didn't, why do we sing? I think they are all a part of worship, but I do think they have different roles. Singing is, as far as I understand, our chance to physically worship God, while hearing the word is our chance to mentally. 

I do believe that singing involves our minds, as well, but I don't see how one can say there is no distinction. We are offering something to God with song, where as with hearing the word, we are accepting something from him.


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## chbrooking (Aug 29, 2009)

Paul,
It's funny how so many issues on the PB are intertwined. This touches the EP issue a bit. Even so, I would say you have outlined a significant difference yourself, in that the ministry of the word is passive (not that we listen passively, but that we only participate receptively). Singing is, by definition, active -- physically active. Beyond that, though, I know there is biblical warrant with regard to prayer and song. I'm not aware of anything that would parallel the sermon or scripture reading. But you've given me a new lens through which to search, so thanks.


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## Knoxienne (Aug 29, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism.



Exactly. And my rhetorical question is if we're reformed and semper reformanda, why would we want anything to do with stuff like that? What's the point of being reformed, then?


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## busdriver72 (Aug 29, 2009)

Simple raising of hands doesn't bother me.
It's when they look like they're swatting flies.....and the persons next to them have to start ducking....that's a bit much.
I especially like the raising hand technique where they repeatedly stab their hand in the air and flick their wrist like they're trying to sling a booger off their finger.


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## chbrooking (Aug 29, 2009)

I wouldn't agree with the assertion that it is out of conformity with reformation principles. Nor with the presumption that it is done to emulate the pentecostals. I don't think we should proscribe a biblical practice by association. If it's biblical, it's biblical. If it's not, it's not. But if you are convinced that it's not biblical, then make the case. 



Knoxienne said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism.
> ...


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## ChariotsofFire (Aug 29, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism.
> ...



Just because the pentecostals are in error on a number of issues, that doesn't mean their practice regarding raising hands in worship is wrong. Now it very well may be wrong, but we have to deal with each issue individually, and look at what Scripture says. The point of being reformed is not being the opposite of a Pentecostal. The point of being reformed is living by Scripture alone.


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## Montanablue (Aug 29, 2009)

> The point of being reformed is not being the opposite of a Pentecostal. The point of being reformed is living by Scripture alone.



Well said.


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## he beholds (Aug 29, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism. That and I just feel uncomfortable doing it.
> So I construct an argument to vindicate my tastes and establish my opinion as being pious.



Since you are now being quoted for the "hands are sinful" side, can I ask if you were being slightly facetious? I assumed so, which is why I thanked you.


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## nicnap (Aug 29, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> > The point of being reformed is not being the opposite of a Pentecostal. The point of being reformed is living by Scripture alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.


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## Brian Withnell (Aug 29, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...



<sillyness>
I think we should choreograph the hands, so we can not only pray verbally, but with semaphore.
</sillyness>
(Jean is going to hit me for that one!)

I think the Bible allows for many things, but I think some of it is possibly cultural in nature. But then I could be wrong on that.

There is nothing in scripture that says we have to have our heads bowed and hands folded. There is nothing that says we have to raise our hands. There is a lot of room for variance. And while I think people gravitate toward similar expression (a single person lifting their hands in prayer will probably feel out of place at times, while those that do not will probably go where they feel comfortable). As an individual, I might raise my hands, but it "feels" wrong in front of others. There are times where I have knelt in prayer is small groups, and when I was a child, I remember there used to be kneeing bars (?) I don't know what they are called, but they were padded, and during certain times of the service, it was expected that everyone would kneel in prayer.

-----Added 8/29/2009 at 05:52:58 EST-----



ChariotsofFire said:


> Just because the pentecostals are in error on a number of issues, that doesn't mean their practice regarding raising hands in worship is wrong. Now it very well may be wrong, but we have to deal with each issue individually, and look at what Scripture says. The point of being reformed is not being the opposite of a Pentecostal. The point of being reformed is living by Scripture alone.



One cannot escape one's culture, and that is why I believe the reformers were saying that the pope was the Antichrist. (Sorry, I'm an American WCF holder, and I don't think Obama ought to be the one calling councils to correct doctrine in the church!) We in the same way see so much error in the pentecostal church, that we much like the reformers, tend to go overboard on issues that related to the major visible church errors of our time.


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## blhowes (Aug 29, 2009)

This has been an interesting thread. The raising of hands during worship, as I've mentioned, is foreign to me.
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.​In this verse, worshipping God with my head bowed, and my face towards the ground, makes sense to me. Being curious about the raising of hands, I looked up verses related to raising of hands. Among the verses was this one;
Lam 3:41 *Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God* in the heavens.​
Is this the reason people raise their hands during worship? They are lifting up their hearts with their hands unto God, as if to offer up their heart to God to do with it as He pleases.


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## Montanablue (Aug 29, 2009)

blhowes said:


> This has been an interesting thread. The raising of hands during worship, as I've mentioned, is foreign to me.
> Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.​In this verse, worshipping God with my head bowed, and my face towards the ground, makes sense to me. Being curious about the raising of hands, I looked up verses related to raising of hands. Among the verses was this one;
> Lam 3:41 *Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God* in the heavens.​
> Is this the reason people raise their hands during worship? They are lifting up their hearts with their hands unto God, as if to offer up their heart to God to do with it as He pleases.



I obviously can't speak for everyone, but this is a large part of why I raise my hands at times. I generally raise my hands during the benediction and sometimes during songs and prayers. Most of my church raises their hands during the benediction - its a posture that indicates that we are receiving a blessing. I usually only raise my hands during prayer or song if it is a prayer or song of thanksgiving. During other types of prayer/song (such as confession, repentance, mourning etc) a more somber posture seems more fitting. 

Didn't the Puritans pray with their faces lifted to the sky? (This is an honest question - I think someone told me this once, but I'm not certain if its correct)


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## chbrooking (Aug 29, 2009)

brian withnell said:


> i think we should choreograph the hands, so we can not only pray verbally, but with semaphore.



. . . Y . . . M . . . C . . .a



er, uh, maybe . . .W . . . W . . . J . . .D


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## Brian Withnell (Aug 29, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> eqdj said:
> 
> 
> > jwithnell said:
> ...



I'd rather be part of the frozen chosen than not have four part harmony during singing. There is no way I can sing the melody of most hymns (or any other music for that matter). All these "unison" songs make it almost impossible for me to participate (I just can't sing that high).

I wish those that want all the modern "happy clappy" music (even if it were psalms) would realize that everyone is supposed to be able to participate, and unison songs make that difficult to impossible.


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## chbrooking (Aug 29, 2009)

That's one reason I sit to the side or up front (or mute my mic if I'm up front). I can't sing harmony, and you DON'T want to hear me sing the melody. Hopefully only God hears me sing -- and as the HS fixes my prayers, I'm hopeful that he also fixes my pitch.


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## Honor (Aug 29, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> I have a series of questions to pose, but will begin them by stating that I have no strict problem with the raising of hands while singing _per se_; and I also feel that this is an issue which needs to be handled with great care and delicacy. The first question is this:
> 
> For those who _do_ raise hands while singing in public worship, do you also do the same during the reading and/or preaching of the word?


I do not raise my hands during the reading and preaching of the Word because I do not want to be called on in the middle of a sermon. However, I do nod vigorusly and say uh huh and Amen. albeit very quietly because the whole verse women should be quiet in church thing. oh and I nudge my husband when I srongly agree or feel moved by the preaching of the Word.

Hi my name is Jessica and I'm a nudger.


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## Montanablue (Aug 29, 2009)

Honor said:


> Prufrock said:
> 
> 
> > I have a series of questions to pose, but will begin them by stating that I have no strict problem with the raising of hands while singing _per se_; and I also feel that this is an issue which needs to be handled with great care and delicacy. The first question is this:
> ...



I am also a nudger! I've also be known to nod vigorously without realizing I'm doing so...


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## JBaldwin (Aug 29, 2009)

Brian Withnell said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > eqdj said:
> ...



While I agree with you about the 4-part harmony. We are currently trying to figure out a way to get more of it in our church. However, it is possible to "pitch" unison songs so that they are singable to all the congregation. It does require a little work on the part of those chosing music, but it can be done.


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## Brian Withnell (Aug 29, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> That's one reason I sit to the side or up front (or mute my mic if I'm up front). I can't sing harmony, and you DON'T want to hear me sing the melody. Hopefully only God hears me sing -- and as the HS fixes my prayers, I'm hopeful that he also fixes my pitch.



I'm sure he groans too deep to express with words.


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## BJClark (Aug 29, 2009)

Why does it sound like we should hide our emotions during worship, as if that is a bad thing?

Granted men may not react as 'emotionally' as women, but they are emotional beings as well, should we completely stifle our emotions re: the love we feel towards God and what He has done for us? 

I, for one, raise my hands when singing praises to God. If God has placed it on my heart to raise my hands in praise to Him, why should I be concerned what 'others' think? I'm not there for them, I'm there to worship God.

This is actually something I struggled with, and the same question kept coming to mind, am I here to please God or man? If God through the Holy Spirit is putting on my heart to raise my hands in praise during song, and I don't then I am ignoring the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and basically telling God, that the opinions of people in the church and 'how it might be frowned upon' is more important to me..than what He is prompting me to do, so lift my hands in praise and thanksgiving.

And re: do I also raise my hands during the reading and preaching of the word, no, I don't.


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## Brian Withnell (Aug 29, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> While I agree with you about the 4-part harmony. We are currently trying to figure out a way to get more of it in our church. However, it is possible to "pitch" unison songs so that they are singable to all the congregation. It does require a little work on the part of those chosing music, but it can be done.



I'm not sure it is unless it is of very limited range. If you have high voices that range from E on the low with F (one octave higher) on the high for sustainable singing, and low voices that range from A to C (again an octave higher) for low voices, then the combined sustainable range is from E to C ... much less than an octave. And it seems the other problem (for me at least) is that the songs that are unison are typically high voice songs, not low, so I'm almost always out of a sustainable range in unison singing (unless I drop it an octave, but that songs just horrid).


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## OPC'n (Aug 30, 2009)

I use mine to hold my hymnal, liturgical pamphlet, or the Bible.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 30, 2009)

I don't like the raising of hands in worship. The raising of two hands is a near universal sign of defeat, surrender, submission, receptivity to the will of another.... _weakness_. We can't have that in our worship. We must maintain our composure and dignity, people.

Raising only one hand is slightly better since it only implies _half_ defeat, etc.


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## AThornquist (Aug 30, 2009)

Madcow said:


> I use mine to hold my hymnal, liturgical pamphlet, or the Bible.



It's clear that I'm the holiest. I redeem the time by waving and raising my hands in praise while exercising by doing cleans and presses _with_ my ESV Study Bible.

The motion is a lot like this:

[video=youtube;YD5APlgpbBQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD5APlgpbBQ[/video]

Now I should also start a thread about how humble I am...


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## OPC'n (Aug 30, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Madcow said:
> 
> 
> > I use mine to hold my hymnal, liturgical pamphlet, or the Bible.
> ...



Hey! You get that going with music and you've got something there!


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## Matthew1034 (Aug 30, 2009)

Is there a Scripture which forbids the raising of hands in corporate worship? If not, can it be convincingly implied from any Scripture?

If not, on what authority do you forbid the raising of hands during the singing portion of a church service?


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## AThornquist (Aug 30, 2009)

Madcow said:


> Hey! You get that going with music and you've got something there!




Perhaps the ESV Study Bible is just for biblical heavy-weights. If you want the results to be more internal and don't yet feel comfortable with letting everyone see the results from three intense months at church, just "get your heart involved" and stick with cardio. The simplest, safest, sauciest solution is to go thinline and increase reps and speed. _But remember!_ A runner can't win the prize without obeying the rules! So good form is a must.


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## Brian Withnell (Aug 30, 2009)

Hmmm... RPW. How does it apply to this particular practice?


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## blhowes (Aug 30, 2009)

Perhaps we could just borrow a tradition that's commonly used today and use it for a different purpose. When its time to sing, the leader simply says, "Would you please bow your heads and close your eyes. With all eyes closed, and nobody looking around..."


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## nicnap (Aug 30, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> I don't like it. It smacks of pentecostalism. That and I just feel uncomfortable doing it.
> So I construct an argument to vindicate my tastes and establish my opinion as being pious.





SolaScriptura said:


> I don't like the raising of hands in worship. The raising of two hands is a near universal sign of defeat, surrender, submission, receptivity to the will of another.... _weakness_. We can't have that in our worship. We must maintain our composure and dignity, people.
> 
> Raising only one hand is slightly better since it only implies _half_ defeat, etc.


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## Jake (Aug 30, 2009)

I know when I am in worship sometimes I have to grip the pew in front of me to stop myself from lifting my hands or moving around some. For some reason it is hard for me to just stand there with hands by my side when praising God! Such joy just overwhelms my soul. 

(No one else in my church is doing this and I'm not from a Charismatic background--I just have such joy)


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## LeeJUk (Aug 30, 2009)

Well I think this has been a good thread.
My conclusions are this

1) We're encouraged in Scripture to do so in the old and new testaments. It's absolutely optional.

2) Having church unity is important but not on silly things like raising your hands, if were gonna stretch unity that far how much more could we be united on, where would it end?
We must take the context as a whole of where the unity of the church is mentioned in these passages. Was Paul asking for unity on a doctrinal issue, a leadership issue etc...? What was the problems the church was having? e.g. corinthians and their crazy communion services etc.. We could really easily end up in legalism if we ran with this unity thing.

3) We must be sure that we are not trying to conform people to our image, rather than allowing those people to be conformed to Christs image.


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