# The Problem of Pain



## cupotea (Apr 19, 2004)

&quot;Premise 1: If God was an all-good being, he would desire the greatest amount of possible goodness and happiness to exist in the world. 

Premise 2: If God desired the greatest amount of possible goodness and happiness to exist in the world, then the greatest amount of possible goodness and happiness would exist in the world (since he is all-powerful). 

Premise 3: The greatest amount of possible goodness and happiness does not exist in the world. 

Conclusion: God is not all-good (or maybe not all-powerful, either way, it would not be the Christian god).&quot;



A little help with this?

Colin,
Please update your signature as per board requirements. This to include: Affiliation, area of residence, church home and full name.

[Edited on 4-20-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

Or pain is good.


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## JonathonHunt (Apr 19, 2004)

Brilliant, Mark!


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 19, 2004)

Paul is right on here.
Pain, suffering, death, and evil are all dilemmas for an unbeleiver, but not a believer. We know that God works all things according to His will. And since all deserve wrath and judgment, who are we to complain if God meets out justice to some and witholds it till later for others? And as Christians, we have no reason to doubt or complain because God will use evil for our good. The dilemma for the beleiver is resolved in person and work of Christ.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Apr 19, 2004)

Pain is not the problem, pleasure is. We are fallen, why would God allow us to experience pleasure??

See John Gerstner in &quot;Primitive Theology.&quot;:smug_b:


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## ChristianTrader (Apr 19, 2004)

Bahnsen's solution to the problem can be found here: 

http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa105.htm


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## ChristianasJourney (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:dd11c865b8][i:dd11c865b8]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:dd11c865b8]
Pain is not the problem, pleasure is. We are fallen, why would God allow us to experience pleasure??

:smug_b: [/quote:dd11c865b8]

:biggrin:

Does it say in the Bible that God desires the greatest amount of happiness? &quot;Goodness&quot; yes. (I had to put that in quotes, otherwise it would've sounded like an exclamation. Goodness, yes!  ) We are to be full of joy, even in trials...but happiness?

We are often asked why does God allow pain and suffering? It's good to be reminded that pain and suffering is the default, the natural way that &quot;we've&quot; chosen. And as Matt stated, the real question is &quot;why is it that a perfect God gives us the ability to have joy and to come to him in our imperfect state?&quot;


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

Pleasure can be painful.

blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

I was thinkning more along the line that when I sin involving a fleshly pleasure then realize the ugliness of this sin then I feel pain for what I have done.

blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

Yes


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

:lb::lb:


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

Paul, I did not mean to imply pain being good categorically and unilaterally.

In this world, and in this Church age, God uses pain to purge us from sin, and glorify His name in all the earth.

Would you agree there is a difference between temporal good and eternal good ? ?


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

So pain could be used as a form of discipline?

blade


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

Marriage is a temporal good. Yet Christ said there would be no marriage in heaven. 

The pain that accompanies discipline is good, or at leat necessary.

Hebrews 12:11 
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. 

What did Solomon mean when he said &quot;Sorrow is better than laughter&quot; ??

There are many good things in this life that might not be eternal.


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

So how do we relate how a non christian feels and handles pain? 

blade


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:d9a6450167]
So how do we relate how a non christian feels and handles pain? 
[/quote:d9a6450167]

Forgive me for not turning to the Scriptures here.

At this point I find Dante's &quot;Divine Comedy&quot; very helpful.

The sufferings of Inferno are very much the same as the sufferings in Purgatorio. The difference is in how the suffering is handled. 

Those in hell experience the torment without hope and without change. They hate God and hate the means He uses to Redeem man. They hold fast to their precious illusion of sin, and the burning reality of holiness becomes an unbearable light.

Those in Purgatory see the catharsis at work. It is a difference of repudiation. They are &quot;purged&quot; from the selfish sins of the flesh by seeing the futility of seeking satisfaction apart from God.

Someone has said that the pains of hell are the monotonous unsatisfying lusts of the damned ever feasting and never being satisfied.

(Compare Inferno III:124-126 with Purgatorio XXI: 65-66)



[Edited on 4-20-2004 by Wintermute]


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

I didnt exacttly mean that I was thinking more like muslims or other non believers.


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:8f646c523a]
....or think of this...if adam had never fallen would God have ever had to discipline him or cause him pain?
[/quote:8f646c523a]

God created him to fall.

If not, we would have no central nervous system.


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## Saiph (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:3d830ca437]
I didnt exacttly mean that I was thinking more like muslims or other non believers. [/quote:3d830ca437]


That is what I am talking about too.


Hell (The Inferno) is life without Christ.
Purgatory is New Life in Christ.
The suffering is redeemed.

We purchase pain with all that joy can give.


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

So theres two types of pain:

1.) Discipline

2.) Punishment


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2004)

no


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