# Question about the word, "determinism"



## cih1355 (Feb 19, 2008)

Should the word, "determinism", be used to describe the fact that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass? Wayne Grudem does not like using the word, "determinism", to describe God's ordination of all events because determinism implies that our choices are not real, that the ultimate cause of things is impersonal, and that it confuses the biblical view of God's providence with non-Christian deterministic systems.


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## Civbert (Feb 19, 2008)

I think we should embrace the term. It does not imply personal or impersonal causes. But a rejection of the term could lead to a view that God has not determine the future. As for choices being real - if they were not real, then I didn't really eat that chocolate chip cookie instead of the peanut-butter cookie. When presented with an option, you must choose one or the other, prior to acting. If there is no choosing, there is no acting. God, however, has already determined what my choice would be. He did not choose for me - I was not forced against my will to choose one over the other. 

The same is true of non-Christian deterministic systems. The only difference is that we know that God determines the future. For the non-Christian, it is "chance".


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Feb 19, 2008)

cih1355 said:


> Should the word, "determinism", be used to describe the fact that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass? Wayne Grudem does not like using the word, "determinism", to describe God's ordination of all events because determinism implies that our choices are not real, that the ultimate cause of things is impersonal, and that it confuses the biblical view of God's providence with non-Christian deterministic systems.



I have no problem using the word. In fact, I believe the word is most appropriate. We should never shy away from using correct terminology just because some non-Christian systems use those same terms incorrectly.


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## Brian Bosse (Feb 19, 2008)

Hello Curt,

In a strict sense, 'determinism' does not imply "that our choices are not real, that the ultimate cause of things is impersonal, and that it confuses the biblical view of God's providence with non-Christian deterministic systems." I think what Grudem is saying is that most people will understand the term in this way, and as such in normal discourse we might want to use a different term. 

My personal opinion on the matter is that the term is perfect precisely because of what it evokes in people. God's _absolute_ control over every aspect of the created order is often times blurred. Using such terms as 'determined' and 'absolute' is one way of communicating what we mean when we say God is sovereign. Our choices are not real, if by 'real' we mean that our choices are goverened by a free will in the libertarian sense. Every created thing is completely dependent upon God. God ordains every event - both ends and means. There is not one molecule or thought not goverened absolutely by God. This is the Biblical view of the Creator. To communicate anything less is to not paint an accurate picture. I can appreciate Grudem's concern, but I think it is misplaced. 

Sincerely,

Brian


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## Grymir (Feb 19, 2008)

Civbert - Good point that modern determinism is Chance. They also seem to make it all powerful too!


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## moral necessity (Feb 19, 2008)

Even within our own beings, our choices are determined according to our given natures. Runners choose to run because they have a strange bent towards it. I choose to not run, because my inclination is away from it. We all choose to do according to our own individual wiring, according to what we perceive to be the highest good or pleasure. If we could see into our thought patterns and our motivations and desires, we would easily be able to determine ahead of time our own choices that we make. This is how the devil gets the upper hand. He has much experience, after 6,000+ years of studying humans, of all of the varieties of wiring that we humans have. This is why his baits are successful. He can predict, with near pinpoint precision, how each of us will determine our choices when various forms of temptation are presented to us. And so, he suits the temptation most appropriate to us. He would probably be the first to agree that we are very deterministic within our own beings. As our choices are determined according to our own characteristic nature, I don't have a problem with saying that God determines what characteristic nature we will have. His sovereignty fashions and molds our nature according to his desire, and we choose according to it, without an ability to choose otherwise. Regeneration begins the process of reforming that nature, and our choices follow and are determined accordingly.

Blessings!


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## larryjf (Feb 19, 2008)

Personally i don't like using the term "determinism." One of the reasons for my dislike of the term is because it does not presume the notion of an intelligent cause for the determination.

That's why i prefer terms like "God-ordained"


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## Civbert (Feb 20, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Civbert - Good point that modern determinism is Chance. They also seem to make it all powerful too!


I almost capitalized Chance too. It makes the subtle point that some people worship the impersonal gods of Science or Chance or Fate.


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