# How Many PBers attended fundamentalist schools?



## JBaldwin (Feb 19, 2009)

A few comments about Greenville, SC and Bob Jones University in another thread made me wonder...How many PBers are former fundamentalists? And did you attend a fundamentalist college or university?


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## a mere housewife (Feb 19, 2009)

I went to two fundamentalist colleges.


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## CharlieJ (Feb 19, 2009)

I attended BJU.

BTW, a poll might not be a bad idea.


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## Kim G (Feb 19, 2009)

I graduated from Bob Jones University in 2006. My husband just graduated in December.


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## ww (Feb 19, 2009)

1992 BJU Graduate with a BA in Bible. I was also notably an APC, PC, and a Hall Leader at BJU. I worked at Brokenshire desk for a time as well.


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## ManleyBeasley (Feb 19, 2009)

Does Liberty Univ count? they're relatively laid back compared to some of those schools.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 19, 2009)

ManleyBeasley said:


> Does Liberty Univ count? they're relatively laid back compared to some of those schools.



My fundamentalist university wouldn't have considered your fundamentalist university separated enough . Third degree separation or something. Besides with a name like 'Liberty' it's probably not the kind of place where you get exponentially increasing demerits if someone comes to *visit* you wearing slacks.


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## DMcFadden (Feb 19, 2009)

Sorry . . . went to an evangelical college and "evangelical" (sortof . . . Fuller) seminary.

I'm not sure what leaves a bigger mark, the scar from a fundamentalist boot on your back or the whiplash coming from jerking back and forth saying "on the one hand, but on the other hand" the way my evangelical profs taught me?

Either way, the two flavors of Arminianism (both fundy and evangelical) that most of us on the PB grew up with left a bad taste in most of our mouths. Praise God for his sovereign grace and cultivating in us a taste for something far more satisfying than the bitter brittle certainty of legalism or the sugary syrup and intellectual lassitude of broad evangelicalism.


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## ManleyBeasley (Feb 19, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> ManleyBeasley said:
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> > Does Liberty Univ count? they're relatively laid back compared to some of those schools.
> ...


 
Hahaha! That is correct! We had people from BJU and PBC who transferred to LU and they acted like they had just gotten out of prison!


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## Josh G (Feb 19, 2009)

> Hahaha! That is correct! We had people from BJU and PBC who transferred to LU and they acted like they had just gotten out of prison!



Being under the law of man can feel like prison. I grew up in the BJU atmosphere since the 5th grade. When you are brought up hearing that rock music, alcohol, and anything without their stamp of approval is wrong, that is binding.

I am just thankful to not be under man's law anymore.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 19, 2009)

ManleyBeasley said:


> a mere housewife said:
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Ah, the re-entry into society. 

Dennis *gasp* my fundamentalist university would have given me demerits for knowing you -- in the future! It is difficult to know which error is more damaging/harder to shake.


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## ww (Feb 19, 2009)

Well I wouldn't be married to my wife if I would have met her at BJU as I wouldn't have been permitted to marry someone of Asian decent. That came to a head several years back if I recall from seeing Bob III on Larry King Live and from what I hear now you are permitted to date those from other races as long as you have permission granted by your parents on file. Talk about a man made law, regardless of your preference, not buying any Biblical arguments, take it up with Moses folks.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 19, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> ManleyBeasley said:
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 That re-entry into society for me was like a space ship re-entering the atmosphere after a long trip to the moon. I went to BJU and another small Keswick (but still fundamentalist) Bible institute


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## Albatross (Feb 19, 2009)

I did not go to a fundamentalist school. Is my impression correct, though, that if the opportunity came again, other schools would be chosen?


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## ww (Feb 19, 2009)

Albatross said:


> I did not go to a fundamentalist school. Is my impression correct, though, that if the opportunity came again, other schools would be chosen?



David,

You ask a most interesting question and one in which you will find those on both sides. I found my experience at BJU one of great joy and even now when I think of my time there I have many fond memories. I received a great education. I met my Best Friend there and keep in touch with a few others as well. If you stick me in a room with a bunch of my fellow students from BJU we'd probably go into the wee hours of the morning recounting the Good Times we had and the Professors etc. Lots of Laughter would ensue. They were in a sense the Best of Times so I struggle with that question. 

However I don't believe I would be considered in any sense a "friend of the University" as they are called due to my Evangelical, Reformed, and non-fundamentalist lifestyle with regard to consumption of alcohol in moderation, movies, etc. I wouldn't recommend it to folks nor will I be sending my children there. This is in contrast to a couple of alumni like Dr Sean Lucas, Chief Academic Officer and Associate Professor of Church History at Covenant Theological Seminary, who wouldn't have any issues with recommending or sending his children there (according to remarks and comments on his blog I've read) yet look at his current role within my denomination the PCA. He's training Pastors in an Evangelical, Reformed, Presbyterian denomination. 

Also I'm not sure if Dr Bob Gonzales would like to comment as he may also have a more open view to BJU as he received his Ph.D from there and also met his wonderful wife there. Dr Bob no not Bob III if you are reading this would be curious as to your vantage point to this question????


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## JBaldwin (Feb 19, 2009)

Albatross said:


> I did not go to a fundamentalist school. Is my impression correct, though, that if the opportunity came again, other schools would be chosen?



Given the opportunity to go to school there, I wouldn't. I would find a good reformed school to attend. Having been away from there for a very long time (about 25 years), I've watched the school change and become even more ingrown than it was when I was there. While I don't regret my time there (I believe every stop on my journey with the Lord was important), I wouldn't choose to go there on purpose, especially knowing what I know now. 

Having said that, the school has much to offer, and I have taken my girls there for some of their community outreach classes (music and swimming) and concerts simply because I know that they are not going to get a worldly view of things. I also take advantage of their wonderful art gallery which is one of the largest collections of religious paintings in the southeast, if not the US.


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## ReformedChapin (Feb 19, 2009)

California State University Los Angeles

for Engineering

Hopefully WSC for Grad School after I graduate.


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## Kevin (Feb 20, 2009)

I spent 2 years at PCC & then graduated from TTU.

I would not recomend or send a kid to BJU or PCC. Liberty or TTU probably, but it would depend on the kid.


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## Ivan (Feb 20, 2009)

Far from a fundamentalist school, I graduated from Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville, Illinois. In the past I've thought it would have been great to have attended a conservative, confessional college. At the time I really didn't have the opportunity. It just wasn't on the radar screen. I didn't even consider a Christian college. Under the circumstances at that point in my life SIU was the best option. The benefit in attending a secular university was that it "toughen" me up considerably and solidified my Christian beliefs. Also, with a scholarship, SIU was virtually free compared to today's prices.

I butted heads with a few professors, which I'm sure comes at no surprise. However, the class I enjoyed the most was a "Special Readings" course. It consisted of choosing a topic, reading tons of material on it, sitting down with the professor a couple hours a week to discuss what I read, and then write a lengthy paper on the subject. It was great!

After graduating from SIU, I went directly to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas, which was the most conservative Southern Baptist seminary at the time. When I got there the seminary was moving from the Naylor administration to the Dilday administration. In my estimation, if SWBTS had continued down the path that President Dilday was leading the seminary, it would have become basically your run-in-the-mill liberal seminary. At the time, Southern was already there and moving farther down the abyss. Mohler saved Southern.


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## A5pointer (Feb 20, 2009)

whitway said:


> Well I wouldn't be married to my wife if I would have met her at BJU as I wouldn't have been permitted to marry someone of Asian decent. That came to a head several years back if I recall from seeing Bob III on Larry King Live and from what I hear now you are permitted to date those from other races as long as you have permission granted by your parents on file. Talk about a man made law, regardless of your preference, not buying any Biblical arguments, take it up with Moses folks.



Fillapina? My wife is.


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 20, 2009)

I went to Bob Jones Academy. College was Calvary Bible College. I was raised to be a bitter, angry, KJV only, separated, separated, separated, neve-happy-unless-I-am-comdemning-other-believers, pre-trib, pre-mil, soul-winning, Dispensational, Fundamentalist. Presbyterians were eeeeeeeeeeeeevil. Evangelicals were eeeeeeeeeeeevil.

Praise God I have been delivered. I just wish Presbyterians would lighten up a bit and say "Amen" in worship service once in while.


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## Herald (Feb 20, 2009)

I did! Word of Life.


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## Anne (Feb 20, 2009)

What about those who didn't go to a Fundamentalist school and wish they had?

I always wanted to go to one, but because of my vocation as a pianist I've had to attend a public university that had an excellent music program. There is something to be said of Christians and the arts. Apparently, it isn't possible for us to have very many Christian artists because that would mean they would have to attend to a non-Christian school! I hope to help remedy this problem after I finish my Ph.D. 

Ryken says, "In the realm of the arts, Christians should be able to go beyond the stars!"


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 20, 2009)

Only in 3rd grade...sure beat ps.


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## Rich Koster (Feb 20, 2009)

I was at Word of Life (summer camp) for a week. That was enough to let me know that I would be thrown out of the Bible Institute after about a week. When I heard the teens were forbidden PC (personal contact) including a "High 5", my mind began to say HOW STUPID, but I remained silent and left them to their manlaws.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 20, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> I was at Word of Life (summer camp) for a week. That was enough to let me know that I would be thrown out of the Bible Institute after about a week. When I heard the teens were forbidden PC (personal contact) including a "High 5", my mind began to say HOW STUPID, but I remained silent and left them to their manlaws.


You couldn't "high five"? Why not? Was it too "ghetto" for them?


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## Grymir (Feb 20, 2009)

I went to a secular-humanist fundamentalist high school, does that count?

And yes, I'm talking about public schools.


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## Rich Koster (Feb 20, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> Rich Koster said:
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> > I was at Word of Life (summer camp) for a week. That was enough to let me know that I would be thrown out of the Bible Institute after about a week. When I heard the teens were forbidden PC (personal contact) including a "High 5", my mind began to say HOW STUPID, but I remained silent and left them to their manlaws.
> ...



No, if a male and female "High 5'd" it was personal (physical contact between 2 genders) contact...which may lead to something else


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## rgray (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

No I didn't go to a fundamentalist school, but an Evangelical school (Taylor University).

I thought I'd point this out as history: Fundamentalism and Dispensationalism both had their proponents within the reformed camp. In fact before Covenant Seminary was established many of that faculty came out of the Bible Presbyterians -- Including my Grandfather who attended Faith Seminary -- and they were self consciously Fundamentalist and Pre-mil (Some historic and some with dispensationalist leanings.) And the BP's originally came out of the OPC ... 

I just think it is interesting. I realize that Fundamentalism means different things. George Marsden is brilliant on the subject.

-Rob


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 24, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> LadyFlynt said:
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Well, one of our highschool teachers did tell hubby and I that holding hands leads to babies...


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## JBaldwin (Feb 24, 2009)

Anne said:


> What about those who didn't go to a Fundamentalist school and wish they had?
> 
> I always wanted to go to one, but because of my vocation as a pianist I've had to attend a public university that had an excellent music program. There is something to be said of Christians and the arts. Apparently, it isn't possible for us to have very many Christian artists because that would mean they would have to attend to a non-Christian school! I hope to help remedy this problem after I finish my Ph.D.
> 
> Ryken says, "In the realm of the arts, Christians should be able to go beyond the stars!"



Anne, you might be interested to know that in the 1950s, the only school in the country besides Julliard that offered a degree in Harp performance was Bob Jones University. Even when I was thinking about becoming a professional musician in the late 1970s, my non-christian music teachers were recommending either Julliard, University of Illinois, or Bob Jones. 

Sadly, their music department, though still quite good, is not what it was 30 years ago, but it is still turning out fine musicians. 

By the way, this does *not* mean that given the choice, I would go back to school there.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 24, 2009)

Not me. I went to a Church of Christ affiliated school. 1-12 grades Harding Academy, Searcy, Arkansas and then Harding University. We had some transfer students from BJU. They had some really interesting stories!


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## Rich Koster (Feb 24, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


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Why....do joined hands attract storks?


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## ThomasCartwright (Mar 5, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> A few comments about Greenville, SC and Bob Jones University in another thread made me wonder...How many PBers are former fundamentalists? And did you attend a fundamentalist college or university?



I am not a former one - I am happy to have the label with reservations based on the textual position I hold. After reading through this thread, it is amazing the crass caricaturing of godly men and women who (horror of horrors) have decided that going to movies and abstaining from alcohol makes them "legalists." It would be an interesting thread to define that word biblically.

A quick review at the music, comentaries and school material produced by historic fundamentalism should delineate that some balance and Fruit of the Spirit would not go amiss on this thread.


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## Kim G (Mar 5, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> I am not a former one - I am happy to have the label with reservations based on the textual position I hold.


 If we can qualify the word "fundamentalist," any of us could say we are fundamentalists. Because, yes, I believe the fundamentals of the Christian faith. But the word "fundamentalist" has changed and carries more baggage than the label is worth, in my opinion.



> After reading through this thread, it is amazing the crass caricaturing of godly men and women who (horror of horrors) have decided that going to movies and abstaining from alcohol makes them "legalists."


 Many of my family and friends do not go to movies and do not drink alcohol. That doesn't make them a legalist. But if they insist on binding other people's consciences to their point of view and say that "good Christians" don't do X, Y, and Z, then they are legalists. They are saying that we must conform to a set of man-made standards in order to be right with God.



> A quick review at the music, comentaries and school material produced by historic fundamentalism should delineate that some balance and Fruit of the Spirit would not go amiss on this thread.


 Once again, you qualified the word "fundamentalism" by saying "historic fundamentalism." Historic fundamentalism and today's fundamentalism are two different things, and I want nothing to do with today's.


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## nicnap (Mar 5, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> a mere housewife said:
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Do you mind if I ask what was the other small Bible Institute?


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## py3ak (Mar 5, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> A quick review at the music, comentaries and school material produced by historic fundamentalism should delineate that some balance and Fruit of the Spirit would not go amiss on this thread.



The _music_? I have consulted several commentaries published by BJU Press - I hadn't noticed anything of particular value in them. Perhaps you could be more precise.


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## ThomasCartwright (Mar 6, 2009)

> Many of my family and friends do not go to movies and do not drink alcohol. That doesn't make them a legalist. But if they insist on binding other people's consciences to their point of view and say that "good Christians" don't do X, Y, and Z, then they are legalists. They are saying that we must conform to a set of man-made standards in order to be right with God.



I am sorry but when does holding a conviction based on a doctrinal understanding that watching people committing fornication and blaspheming the name of God make you a legalist? I would be very confident that most here would admit that they have watched movies that contain such material but could they give me a BIBLE VERSE that permits it? Also, how can anyone bind another person's conscience? If you do not like the rules, start your own local Church or move elsewhere. If the local Church has a set of rules for it membership on polygamy is that "binding a member's conscience?"

Historic Fundamentalism held to the same principles. Just because many "Reformed" Churches have rejected the traditional understanding of personal separation does not mean that you are right. Fundamentalism has also been historically committed to personal separation. George Dollar wrote in 1966,



> The fundamentalists of 1875–1900 were very outspoken about the apostasy of their times and the sins from which Christians should separate. Indeed, one is surprised to find in their sermons and lectures such sharp rebukes to saints for their worldliness. They saw the world worsening as we approach the rapture. The particular sins then prevalent were named....card table, horse racing, dancing, stage plays, theater, and wine. The church was condemned for being wholly worldly and worldly holy [a phrase used by A. T. Pierson at the 1886 Prophetic Conference].... The business of the Spirit was to make him [the Christian] distinct from the unregenerate and this included his enjoyments, recreation, business, and his use of time and money.



Another early Fundamentalists openly opposed the theater because its,
"chief themes...are now, as they ever have been, the passions of men—ambition and jealousy, leading to murder; lust, leading to adultery and to death; [and] anger, leading to madness." (Editorial, “The Theater,” Watchword, July 1896, p. 189.) 

Although Joseph Parker and CH Spurgeon had exchanged pulpits, he split with Spurgeon over private condemnation by Spurgeon of his attendance to the secular theatres which Spurgeon regarded as immoral. Joseph Parker complained of Spurgeon, “The only colours Mr. Spur¬geon knew were black and white. In all things he was definite. You were either in or out, up or down, alive or dead.” 

No doubt Spurgeon was a big legalist by holding to such a position!

-----Added 3/6/2009 at 01:52:12 EST-----



> The _music_? I have consulted several commentaries published by BJU Press - I hadn't noticed anything of particular value in them. Perhaps you could be more precise.




I agree but I never mentioned BJU. Off the cuff, I would say most of the books from Ambassador Emerald in Greenville are excellent. In particular, I would recommend anything by Michael Barrett or Alan Cairns. They both proudly wear the title of a Fundamentalist and both are excellent scholars and writers.


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## py3ak (Mar 6, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> I agree but I never mentioned BJU. Off the cuff, I would say most of the books from Ambassador Emerald in Greenville are excellent. In particular, I would recommend anything by Michael Barrett or Alan Cairns. They both proudly wear the title of a Fundamentalist and both are excellent scholars and writers.



I know them both: of course, they would also use the title Reformed quite freely with regard to themselves. I think you will find that in the hybrid world of calvinistic fundamentalists, the good things usually come from the Reformed side of their ancestry, and the bad things come from the fundamentalist side.


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## kevin.carroll (Mar 6, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> > No doubt Spurgeon was a big legalist by holding to such a position!
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## py3ak (Mar 6, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> Also, how can anyone bind another person's conscience? If you do not like the rules, start your own local Church or move elsewhere. If the local Church has a set of rules for it membership on polygamy is that "binding a member's conscience?"



I didn't have time to reply to this earlier. First, I do hope that you don't encourage everyone who finds something they disagree with to start their own local church. *That* is by no means the solution to problems.

You may want to ask Christ how anyone can bind someone else's conscience: see Luke 11:46. When people misuse the word of God, those who are sensitive to the word of God are not always clear and vigorous enough to see the misuse and despise it.


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## ww (Mar 7, 2009)

No matter how you slice it a true Fundamentalist always believes that he/she is living a more righteous life than his Evangelical or Reformed counterparts, it's part of the lifestyle. I'll never forget the endless debates on Primary, Secondary, and infinity Separation which ultimately leads one to become a recluse where everyone pats themselves on the back for not "smoking, drinking, or chewing, or going with girls who do." And I'm not one of those students who went against the grain or who went to a Fundamentalist school because my parents forced me or paid my way. I chose it for myself, became a Leader on Campus, obeyed the rules only receiving 5 demerits in 4 years because I missed a class due to illness and didn't report right away to the Campus Hospital. I appreciate the Education. I appreciated the focus on the Arts. I made lifelong friends, but I never learned how to live and that is where an artificial environment like BJU fails. It teaches you how to live in a protective, bubble environment, but it doesn't teach you how to live in the outside world. The Real World! 

And yes I sat under some great Reformed Fundamentalists, Dr Michael PV Barrett, Dr Terry Rude, Dr Beale to name a few. However eventually their Reformed views for a couple of them became a stumblingblock for the University. I remember going to Dr Barrett to ask him about Calvinism several times and he brushed me off because he wasn't permitted to speak about it. I became one in spite of those brush offs however I could never embrace the Fundamentalism of the Free Presbyterian or Bible Presbyterian Church because of the attitude I referenced above.


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## ThomasCartwright (Mar 7, 2009)

> I know them both: of course, they would also use the title Reformed quite freely with regard to themselves. I think you will find that in the hybrid world of calvinistic fundamentalists, the good things usually come from the Reformed side of their ancestry, and the bad things come from the fundamentalist side.



Reuben

It is somewhat strange to me that you would call yourself a Free Presbyterian and then undermine their membership covenant demanding total abstinence publicly. I also know both men and I am sure both would categorically reject your arbitrary dichotomy. You cannot simply separate their Reformed beliefs from their orthopraxy when they believe one defines the other and would say so in much stronger terms than what I have.



> Spurgeon smoked...
> 
> Fundamentalism's obsession with separation was what really drove me away from it. When I was in college a pastor had me read "Heart Disease in Christ's Body" by Jack Van Impe. (I know, I know). It chronicled the death of Fundamentalism as a movement because the second and third generation Fundamentalists were more concerned with being earnestly contentious about the faith, than earnestly contending for it. That really resonated with me.
> 
> At the same time I was reading another fundy book (don't recall the author) called "Biblical Separation" that touted the need to quite literally separate from everyone and their dog who might possibly even know a liberal. I recall wondering, "Why does no one in our camp talk about biblical unity?"



Spurgeon also gave smoking up for his testimony sake. You such read a little more. As for your point about separation, I am sure you believe in separation from SOMEONE. So it is a matter of where we draw our lines of separation. You clearly don't believe that the essential truths of the gospel is necessary for Christian unity. I for one would profoundly disagree as the gospel was purchased at such a great price that it is not mine to dilute for the sake of some unbiblical "unity." 

I have spent all of my life in fundamentalism and do not recognise your characterization that they are obssessed with separation. A quick survey of the sermons of leading fundamentalist speakers would delineate how worthless your observation is. Ironically, the very term "fundamentalist" normally means that you are inter-denominational in focus and fellowship, whereas the term "Reformed" is a more restrictive term. 



> No matter how you slice it a true Fundamentalist always believes that he/she is living a more righteous life than his Evangelical or Reformed counterparts, it's part of the lifestyle.



Firstly what is wrong with seeking to live the best way you know how according to the Scriptures. The standards that I embrace were those of many of our illustrious forefathers and it certainly never did them any harm. Secondly, your statement is rather silly as by declining or choosing to abstain from alcohol, movies, smoking etc requires a conscious moral choice. As such, whatever side you come down on must be regarded by you as objectively the better one and ergo anyone who disagrees must be "less righteous." 

Secondly, you say "I never learned how to live and that is where an artificial environment like BJU fails" - we always here these subjective arguments when coming to this subject. I could as equally logically say that I never took drugs and never learned how to live! Also, it is incredibly patronising of you to say that because believers choose to abstain from alcohol, smoking and movies that they have never learned how to live!


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## py3ak (Mar 7, 2009)

ThomasCartwright said:


> I also know both men and I am sure both would categorically reject your arbitrary dichotomy. You cannot simply separate their Reformed beliefs from their orthopraxy when they believe one defines the other and would say so in much stronger terms than what I have.



Except that you evidently can, because multitudes who have Reformed beliefs, indeed, who hold them in more historically Reformed ways, have not come to the same practical conclusions.


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## ThomasCartwright (Mar 7, 2009)

py3ak said:


> ThomasCartwright said:
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> > I also know both men and I am sure both would categorically reject your arbitrary dichotomy. You cannot simply separate their Reformed beliefs from their orthopraxy when they believe one defines the other and would say so in much stronger terms than what I have.
> ...



Do you know any historic Reformed figure who would have advocated sitting in a movies theatre watching a film in which the name of Christ was blasphemed? As for the multitudes (questionable to say the least) who disagree with my conclusions, is that how we determine doctrine? 

This discussion is somewhat academic as the accusation I was defending was the right of Reformed Churches today to demand abstinence from their membership without being labelled "legalists." Am still waiting for a Biblical defence of that accusation. In fact no one has even defined "legalist" yet. Would a Session of a local church be legalist if they refused non-immersion baptism?


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## py3ak (Mar 7, 2009)

Paul, I'll plead guilty to starting a tangent thread within this one. You praised some aspects of fundamentalism, I asked you for more information and then disagreed with you. So the question of the movies really has nothing to do with anything you and I have talked about.


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## Marno (Mar 7, 2009)

kevin.carroll said:


> I just wish Presbyterians would lighten up a bit and say "Amen" in worship service once in while.



A little straying off topic  :

Teach them to. That's what I did for the two OPCs I pastored. It worked out very well.
I told them I wasn't going to be like a tv preacher with "...and God's people said --?", they should just follow my amens with an amen, as agreement in prayer. Also I told them to feel free to say "amen" during the sermon if they wished. Without carrying that "freedom" too far, of course.


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