# "Prevenient Grace" in the Wesleyan/Arminian sense



## biblelighthouse (Apr 22, 2005)

*\"Prevenient Grace\" in the Wesleyan/Arminian sense*

I was raised as a Wesleyan/Arminian/Nazarene. And as you know, they pay lipservice to the doctrine of original sin. But instead of coming to the logical conclusion of unconditional election, they invent the idea of Wesleyan "prevenient grace", which enables man to believe, but doesn't cause him to believe. And while their theory may sound nice, there is of course no Biblical warrant for such a belief.

Since becoming a Calvinist, I have been unpleasantly surprised at how few resources are available which deal *directly* with the idea of Arminian prevenient grace.

Here is a short article with some thoughts I have on the subject: http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm

Also in the article are links to 4 appropos articles I found on the web. There is also a reference to an article Thomas Schreiner wrote, refuting Arminian prevenient grace.

Can any of you point me to some more good books/articles/websites that deal *directly* with the Arminian version of the "prevenient grace" doctrine? Of course there are numerous Calvinistic books that touch on the subject in one way or another. But do you know of any good resources that deal *directly* with it?

Thank you in advance,
Joseph M. Gleason

[Edited on 4-22-2005 by biblelighthouse]


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## The Lamb (Apr 23, 2005)

Joseph. Abraham Kuyper does an excellent job on this topic and shows it was confessed by Reformed folk first. 

I personally believe in a prevenient, "first cause" type grace provided by the Holy Spirit. 

I will try to find the link for you.

it is on ccel somewhere


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## Puritanhead (Apr 23, 2005)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." -Romans 9:16


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

http://www.ccel.org/k/kuyper/holy_spirit/htm/vi.iv.htm


Joseph. Read this please


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Joseph. Abraham Kuyper does an excellent job on this topic and shows it was confessed by Reformed folk first.
> 
> I personally believe in a prevenient, "first cause" type grace provided by the Holy Spirit.




Joseph, whether we are on a thread about covenant theology, or a thread about "prevenient grace", it would certainly be helpful if you would start paying closer attention to my posts, reading *everything* I type *before* you respond.

Look at my original post. I specifically said that I am looking for good resources that refute the "*Arminian version* of the 'prevenient grace' doctrine. 

OF COURSE I believe that God acts first and alone. That's what monergism is all about! If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be a calvinist, I wouldn't make so many posts about calvinism and covenant theology, and I doubt that I would even be allowed to participate on this forum. My post was in regard to the *Arminian version* of prevenient grace, not the biblical, reformed, irresistible version of it.

In addition, the term "prevenient grace" (as far as I can tell) has been hijacked by the Wesleyan/Arminians. It seems to me that the term "prevenient grace" is most often used by Wesleyan/Arminians, and that modern calvinists generally use terms like "irresistible grace" instead. Of course a calvinist can still use the term "prevenient grace" if he wants to, but it is likely to cause confusion, since so many followers of John Wesley do not believe that prevenient grace is 100% effective.

Joseph, in the future, please read my whole post, and consider the context in which I make statements. If you thought I was talking about prevenient grace in general, instead of specifically the Arminian version of prevenient grace, then you weren't paying attention to my post. And if you thought for a moment that I don't believe in the preeminience of God's grace in man's salvation, then you haven't been paying attention at all.


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> http://www.ccel.org/k/kuyper/holy_spirit/htm/vi.iv.htm
> 
> 
> Joseph. Read this please



Thank you for the good article. I liked it.


Now . . . does anyone know of some good articles that directly address and refute the Arminian version of the "prevenient grace" doctrine?

Thanks,
Joseph


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



Joseph. I fyou believe that I believed that you believed what you think I thought you believed. Well I dont believe it. hahahaha

I just presented the article Joseph. I know where you stand.


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## doulosChristou (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> Now . . . does anyone know of some good articles that directly address and refute the Arminian version of the "prevenient grace" doctrine?
> 
> Thanks,
> Joseph



Yes, the Schreiner article referenced above refutes the "prevenient grace" doctrine head on. It is the ninth chapter in the book _Still Sovereign_, edited by Thomas Schreiner and Bruce Ware.

dC


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> ...



Where is the article DC? I do not see it....


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## doulosChristou (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> Where is the article DC? I do not see it....



There is no link to it; reference was made to it above. As far as I know, it is not online. You have to buy the book. 

dC


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## john_Mark (Apr 25, 2005)

*Maybe some info here*

Take a look here at this search on monergism.com.

What's funny is that the Arminian prevenient grace is irresistible or else they'd be pelagian by having to act outside of God's grace prior to receiving it.


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

The Arminian postion states the this prevenient grace brings the person back to a neutral state. Allowing them to choose Christ or not choose Christ.

Joseph


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> The Arminian postion states the this prevenient grace brings the person back to a neutral state. Allowing them to choose Christ or not choose Christ.
> 
> Joseph



Yup. And that idea is not only unbiblical, but is logically incoherent!!!

First of all, if a person is totally "neutral", then he could make no choice at all, in either direction. Because if he was totally "neutral", then there would be absolutely nothing causing him to lean in one direction or the other. 

Second, Arminians forget that neutrality itself is actually evil. It is *sinful* to not be 100% bent on serving God wholeheartedly at all times. So the very idea of moral "neutrality" is pure nonsense. The moment that Arminian prevenient grace made someone morally "neutral", the person would immediately be lost in sin again, due to the fact that neutrality toward God is wicked.

Arminians are nuts!


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## john_Mark (Apr 25, 2005)

*Joseph (The Lamb)*



> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> The Arminian postion states the this prevenient grace brings the person back to a neutral state. Allowing them to choose Christ or not choose Christ.



Were you replying to me? Sorry, I don't follow.


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by john_Mark_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



No, just a general statement


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## Peccant (Jul 11, 2005)

I do hope Biblelighthouse, you won't be to upset if I tag on a little question here.

The question is about "Richard Baxter" of "Reformed Pastor" fame. I always thought he was one of the good guys. Recently I came across this statement in the Church Mag. quote; "Both wesley and Baxter taught that faith itself, rather than the righteousness of Christ, is the ground of justification."

I've not come across such a stated "affinity" between Baxter and Wesley. Its a little surprising. Any of you experts care to comment??


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## Scott (Jul 13, 2005)

"First of all, if a person is totally "neutral", then he could make no choice at all, in either direction. Because if he was totally "neutral", then there would be absolutely nothing causing him to lean in one direction or the other."

Be careful where you go with this. In his original innocence, Adam was in a state in which he could choose good or evil. Since he was not inclined to sin, and did not have even the remnants of a sin nature, it is hard to understand how he could sin. Yet he did. It has puzzled theologians.

He was not "neutral" as his original estate embodied an obedient relationship with God, but I suspect that the Arminians are basically saying that man is enabled to be in a position a bit like Adam's - namely that they now have the moral power to choose good or evil.


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## Scott (Jul 13, 2005)

"What's funny is that the Arminian prevenient grace is irresistible or else they'd be pelagian by having to act outside of God's grace prior to receiving it."

But its a different thing, right? For Arminians, the irrestiable aspect of prevenient grace is that they cannot resist sufficient grace to enable them to choose to believe (somewhat like Adam in his original state). For Calvinists, being drawn to faith in Christ is irresistible.


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## JKLeoPCA (Jul 13, 2005)

From RC Sproul's book, "Chosen by God", pg.123 and following

"Prevenient Grace
As the name suggests, prevenient grace is grace that "comes before" something. It is normally defined as a work that God does for everybody. He gives all people enough grace to respond to Jesus. That is, it is enough grace to make it _possible_ for people to choose Christ. Those who cooperate with and assent to this grace are "elect." Those who refuse to cooperate with this grace are lost."

"The strength of this view is that it recognizes that fallen man's spiritual condition is severe enough that it requires God's grace to save him. the weeknes of the position may be seen in two ways. If this prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails in the same manner that the medicine and the life preserver analogies fail. What good is prevenient grace if offered outwardly to a spiritually dead creature?"

"On the other hand, if prevenient grace refers to something that God does within the heart of fallen man, then we must ask why it is not always effectual. Why is it that some fallen creatures choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose not to? Doesn't everyone get the same amount?"

"Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is is that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous then they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn't God give the same gift to everybody?"

"Perhaps it wasn't becuase you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Becuase you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?"

"To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, 'No I chose Christ because I recognize my desperate need for him.'"

"That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn't? Was it because you were more righteous then your neighbor, or more intelligent?"

"The $64 question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others don't. How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is."

"the $64,000 question is, "Does the Bible teach such a doctrine of prevenient grace? If so, where?"

"We conclude that our salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom he regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject him. God's saving grace effects what he intends to effect by it."


-RC Sproul



-mine


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## Scott (Jul 13, 2005)

Jospeh - Let us know what you find.


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## Greg (Sep 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JKLeoPCA_
> 
> 
> "On the other hand, if prevenient grace refers to something that God does within the heart of fallen man, then we must ask why it is not always effectual. Why is it that some fallen creatures choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose not to? Doesn't everyone get the same amount?"
> ...




Reading something very much like this over at monergism.com, while beginning a study on the doctrine of Total Depravity and on regeneration, was the major turning point for me.

If person A and person B both recieve equal amounts of grace, and both are supposedly brought to a point where they can freely respond either to receive or reject Christ, then exactly why does one person believe and the other continue in their unbelief, though both received an equal amount of grace? Did the one make better use of that grace than the other did? Was he wiser or more prudent? More discerning? A better intellect or more spiritually inclined?

As was said, if the answer is yes to any of these, then this man does have something to boast about over the other man who rejected Christ, as there was something within himself that the other lacked even though the both of them received the same equal amount of grace.


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## BJClark (Sep 10, 2005)

I haven't searched through all the many various articles here, but they may offer something of what your looking for.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/contemporary.html


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## BJClark (Sep 10, 2005)

Some links from the above posted website:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=226

http://www.the-highway.com/arminianism.html

http://members.aol.com/RSISBELL/soul.html

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by BJClark]


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