# Eastern Orthodox Critique of Calvin on Icons



## Pergamum (Dec 6, 2008)

Interesting. Any thoughts? I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.

Where does this article go wrong?


Liturgica.com | Liturgics


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## GTMOPC (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't think Calvin was wrong, even if he may have "overstated" his case. I say this because I'm not a hardliner when it comes to images. In other words I don't see a problem with crosses, art, certain images in church or in the home, film, etc. These things are fine when they are respected in the right manner, not as idols or substitutes for God. That's my personal opinion though and I wouldn't suffer lose if I had to give up that conviction.

The Eastern Orthodox make their case form Icons by making a difference between worship and veneration. You might say we worship God but we venerate Paul. Or that's their understanding no matter whether it's Mary, Paul, a saint, or an image of Christ. They would say we are worshipping God when we venerate an image of Christ as the image is an aid to our worship. In an extreme sense that might fly, but I wonder if the average lay EO Christian understands that? Personally I'm not comfortable with the difference between worshipping an Idol and venerating one. My conscience tells me it is wrong to do either! In fact that was my original red flag when I was flirting with EO and RC before coming to know the reformed faith. I simply could not worship/venerate Mary, pray to her, or look on pictures of saints in hopes they might pray for me, etc. The word of God gave me a better conception of who God was even before I understood that was the only place to look that I might 'know' God.

I'm not an authority but my gut tells me the article is skewed by the authors presupposition that icons are biblical and thus Calvin must be wrong. This is similar to what I think the Helsinki schools attitude to Luther was on the subject of Theosis. Their presuppositions blinded them into painting the early Luther teaching Theosis. Whether he may have isn't as important as whether the Bible teaches the doctrine. And in the same fashion does Calvin get it wrong on the matter of Icons? I don't think so. But does that really matter if the word of God teaches otherwise? I say we consult sources like Calvin and WCF, but let scripture have the final say.

I hope that someone will give a detailed critique of the article since I'm not qualified to comment. I'd like to know if in fact he was 'overstating' his case or not particularly.


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## dannyhyde (Dec 6, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Interesting. Any thoughts? I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.
> 
> Where does this article go wrong?
> 
> ...



Sometime in early '09 my book on images will be out. I do seek to deal with Orthodoxy's main claim for images being the Incarnation itself. Until then, you can read a great article by David VanDrunen of Westminster Seminary California that deals with Orthodoxy's claims: "Iconoclasm, Incarnation, and Eschatology: Toward a Catholic Understanding of the Reformed Doctrine of the ‘Second’ Commandment." _International Journal of Systematic Theology_ 6:2 (April 2004): 130–147.

If you have problems opening this let me know . . .


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## Zenas (Dec 6, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.



Does anyone?


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## Prufrock (Dec 6, 2008)

Schaff's introduction to the Second Council of Nicaea in the last volume of his Post-Apostolic Fathers has a nice, brief introduction to the matter. It can be found many places free online.


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## GTMOPC (Dec 6, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.
> ...



Good point!

The Eastern Orthodox, I understand, don't consider any doctrine outside of the context of the church. In other words, it must be addressed in the sphere of the sacramental life of the the church. Outside of that the EO theology of icons, theosis, and monasticism suffers misrepresentation. Whether they are right in that belief or not I don't know. But I think it is profitable to give them the benefit of the doubt and address things like icons in the broader context of their soteriology. What I mean is, I think the other doctrines are informed or guided by their larger theological understanding of salvation and anthropology. With that being said, we know their soteriology is seriously flawed and unbiblical, so should we give much attention to things like icons?

As a side note, I've always been interested in their doctrine of Theosis. I understand what they say is unbiblical but I wonder if there is any truth to it within the context of reformed thought.


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## dannyhyde (Dec 6, 2008)

GMcClain20 said:


> As a side note, I've always been interested in their doctrine of Theosis. I understand what they say is unbiblical but I wonder if there is any truth to it within the context of reformed thought.



Michael Horton addresses _theosis_ and its relation to glorification in Reformed theology in chapter 12 of this book:

Amazon.com: Covenant and Salvation: Union with Christ: Michael S. Horton: Books


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## Jon Lake (Dec 6, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.
> ...


Nice!


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## RamistThomist (Dec 6, 2008)

Robert Letham's book on EO is superb: _Through Western Eyes_. He avoids misrepresentations, pot shots, and straw men. He honestly convinces certain difficulties with both Reformed and EO _presentations_ of certain positions. I found it to be very informative and charitable.

-----Added 12/6/2008 at 12:07:06 EST-----

Why not get it from the horses' mouth?

Amazon.com: Three Treatises on the Divine Images (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press Popular Patristics Series): of Reading John, of Damascus, Saint John, Andrew Louth: Books

St John of Damascus, like almost all writers of the period, wrote simply and clearly without sacrificing depth. The book is relatively cheap and can probably be read in one day. And you get to say you have read some of the church fathers, which is always cool. Disagree with him at the end--I have some problems with some of his proof-texts and conclusions but I respect him.

On theosis:
Amazon.com: Athanasius (The Early Church Fathers): Khaled Anatolios: Books

One of the world class scholars on St Athanasius. It shows how theotic his theology is. If you are writing a general paper on EO, then you will be expected to quote Vladimir Lossky. Lossky can be weird at times--he is like EO's version of Meredith Kline--but on theosis he is rather straightfoward.

Amazon.com: In the Image and Likeness of God: Vladimir Lossky, John H. Erickson, Thomas E. Bird: Books

The first and last books listed can easily be read in a week without denting the pocketbook. Khaled's book is kind of hefty in more than one way.


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## Pergamum (Dec 6, 2008)

Wow, Jacob - you've been studying the east a lot lately haven't you? 

Can you recommend anything about the Cossaks of the Don who fought the Ottoman's? I am reading about Lepanto and the siege of Malta and the battles in the Crimea between Mslms and "Europeans" is fascinating to me right now.


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## dannyhyde (Dec 6, 2008)

Amazon.com: Three Treatises on the Divine Images (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press Popular Patristics Series): of Reading John, of Damascus, Saint John, Andrew Louth: Books

Amazon.com: Athanasius (The Early Church Fathers): Khaled Anatolios: Books

Amazon.com: In the Image and Likeness of God: Vladimir Lossky, John H. Erickson, Thomas E. Bird: Books

Thank you for the recommendations!


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## RamistThomist (Dec 6, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Wow, Jacob - you've been studying the east a lot lately haven't you?
> 
> Can you recommend anything about the Cossaks of the Don who fought the Ottoman's? I am reading about Lepanto and the siege of Malta and the battles in the Crimea between Mslms and "Europeans" is fascinating to me right now.



*DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX*

I had to write that disclaimer because somebody was sure to make that accusation. It has happened before. 

Yes, I have been studying the East lately. I fell in love with them when I realized it was they who held the line against the Islamic hordes (usually when the West was caving in), both in the middle ages and today. The story of Holy Serbia and Prince Lazar in 1389 is one of unparalleled beauty and heartache. I have a few sites on the Cossacks/Crimea and Ottomans, which I will send to you in a PM


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## Pergamum (Dec 6, 2008)

Audio Lectures Download


Cool site of MP3 links that were given to me...but can anyone here burn cds into a disk - my computer won't do it here?


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## JM (Dec 6, 2008)

I attended a Greek Orthodox Church off and on for two years...still have my Ikons.

Welcome - Ancient Faith Radio


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## Poimen (Dec 6, 2008)

Ivanhoe said:


> *DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX*
> 
> I had to write that disclaimer because somebody was sure to make that accusation. It has happened before.



I still think you are EO. I had to write that because I wanted to be a jerk. And that too has happened before.


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## JM (Dec 6, 2008)

http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Heaven-Introducing-Protestants-Catholics/dp/1587431092

Windows to Heaven link


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 6, 2008)

2nd Commandment Violation above...


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## Scott1 (Dec 6, 2008)

> Pergamum
> The MacDaddy
> 
> Eastern Orthodox Critique of Calvin on Icons




It's not really about Mr Calvin. It's about what the Holy Spirit speaking through Scriptures says about "icons" in worship.



> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Q. 107. Which is the second commandment?
> 
> A. The second commandment is, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.[517]





> [517] Exodus 20:4-6. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.



-----Added 12/6/2008 at 04:57:33 EST-----



> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
> 
> A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[529] counselling,[530] commanding,[531] using,[532] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[533] tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[534] *all worshipping of it*,[535] *or God in it or by it*;[536] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[537] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,[538] *all superstitious devices*,[539] corrupting the worship of God,[540] adding to it, or taking from it,[541] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[542] or received by tradition from others,[543] *though under the title of antiquity*,[544] custom,[545] devotion,[546] good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;[547] simony;[548] sacrilege;[549] all neglect,[550] contempt,[551] hindering,[552] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[553].



The Scripture basis for this is overwhelming. It is one thing that displeases our God:



> [529] Numbers 15:39. And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring.
> 
> [530] Deuteronomy 13:6-8. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.
> 
> ...



The rationalization of the worship being "indirect" versus "direct" and therefore that it is acceptable to God (man deciding "directness") is, to be charitable, nonsense.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 6, 2008)

JM said:


> I attended a Greek Orthodox Church off and on for two years...still have my Ikons.
> 
> Welcome - Ancient Faith Radio



Ancient Faith Radio is okay. There are almost too many programs there to be helpful. Our Life in Christ is pretty good. The others are of medium quality.


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## TimV (Dec 6, 2008)

Perg, the Cossacks have had many of their ancient perks reinstated, and they fought as independent units in the last war between Georgia and Russia, and I noticed that many in-depth news reports carried lots of info on Cossack history, so Google News will get you lots of good information quicker and cheaper than books.

Thanks, Ivanhoe, for your posts on this thread.


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## Jon Lake (Dec 7, 2008)

I have a 500 year old Icon, I figure it is "safe" I don't worship it, to me it is a piece of art.


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## Igor (Dec 7, 2008)

I am not Orthodox, but I live among them so I am a little bit familiar with their theology and practice. As for the icons, the theology thereof is based on the concept of Incarnation, the revelation of the Image of God in Jesus Christ. And, of course, the icons are not to be worshiped, but venerated, as has already been said. But as you can guess, there is little (if any) difference for the vast majority of "traditional" believers, who may trully worship an icon of the Mother of God if it is believed to be miracle-working.


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## Ivan (Dec 7, 2008)

Jon Lake said:


> I have a 500 year old Icon, I figure it is "safe" I don't worship it, to me it is a piece of art.



How did you come to get that?


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## Jon Lake (Dec 7, 2008)

Ivan said:


> Jon Lake said:
> 
> 
> > I have a 500 year old Icon, I figure it is "safe" I don't worship it, to me it is a piece of art.
> ...


My Aunt, who was not a deeply religious woman got the piece from her Mother-In-Law, sadly...my Aunt felt anything remotely Christian was uncouth, low-brow, and was ashamed for even a Bible to be in her penthouse, in this case she did not like what " it stood for" so...who better than to her Nephew who is "into all that Jesus mess", so she gave it to me, the intent was a tongue in cheek insult, I cheerfully took it, showed it to a friend who once owned an art gallery, he at first glance said "Dude, this is MAJOR old." He was correct it is in fact around 5 centuries old. Her loss...


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## JM (Dec 7, 2008)

St. Pachomius Library


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## Hippo (Dec 7, 2008)

My undersatanding is tha as the EO do not really hold with original sin they do not recognise the inherant idolitry that Calvin was (rightly) so aware of.

You can just imagine the Jews before the golden calf arguing that they were just venerating the statue.


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## JM (Dec 8, 2008)

The EO does not believe in orginal sin, and reject the doctrine as the invention of Augustine, they would be in line with John Cassian. 
[video=youtube;q6wGElO62B0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGElO62B0[/video]
[video=youtube;lynylykrFao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lynylykrFao[/video]


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## RamistThomist (Dec 8, 2008)

TimV said:


> Perg, the Cossacks have had many of their ancient perks reinstated, and they fought as independent units in the last war between Georgia and Russia, and I noticed that many in-depth news reports carried lots of info on Cossack history, so Google News will get you lots of good information quicker and cheaper than books.
> 
> Thanks, Ivanhoe, for your posts on this thread.



There are two interesting youtube vids on the Cossacks. One is done from the standpoint of Mother Russia, the other from the standpoint of Enlightnemnt democracy. Unfortunatley, I can't access youtube from work. 

Cool about the cossacks involvement in the war against Geogia. Here is a neat video on Cossacks training (begins about 8 minutes into the video)

[video=youtube;X8uDi8Agkf8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8uDi8Agkf8[/video]


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## Jan Ziska (Dec 26, 2008)

In my research on the matter, EO will point to the images of cherubim stitched into the walls of the tabernacle, or the statues and images on the ark of the covenant as two examples of images being rightly used in the worship of God.


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