# Stealing: Question on loans/creditcards



## Romans922 (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 30, 2009)

I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:



> Q. 141. What are the duties required in the eighth commandment?
> A. The duties required in the eighth commandment are, truth, faithfulness, and justice in contracts and commerce between man and man;801 rendering to everyone his due;[801a] restitution of goods unlawfully detained from the right owners thereof;802 giving and lending freely, according to our abilities, and the necessities of others;803 moderation of our judgments, wills, and affections concerning worldly goods;804 a provident care and study to get,805 keep, use, and dispose these things which are necessary and convenient for the sustentation of our nature, and suitable to our condition;806 a lawful calling,807 and diligence in it;808 frugality;809 avoiding unnecessary lawsuits,810. and suretiship, or other like engagements;811 and an endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own.812
> 
> Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
> ...


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## Romans922 (Sep 30, 2009)

I've been reading that, can you bold the areas you specifically had in mind? 

So far in my thoughts about these two things, I believe it unwise to take part in these things (although for home loans, you really can't help it these days). 

Because over the long haul, you are paying way more than you have to and more than what you are buying is worth (because of interest). This in my opinion is not procuring and furthering your estate, but hindering it. These are my initial thoughts. 

And your borrowing of money is unnecessary in some ways. To buy a car, you can plan ahead and save. I don't believe you have to use a CC, although to gain benefits from some CC companies, it might be wise to use CC, as long as you pay it off quickly so no interest is accrued.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm not sure where you wanted to go with it. I assumed you might have read the WLC but wasn't certain. I think it provides a number of points that could be drawn out about debt with especial emphasis on lust for earthly possessions, covetousness, and preserving our estate in a Godly fashion. I don't think there's a problem using a CC if you're paying off the balance every month. I also think taking out loans for things that have real equity (like homes) is fine.


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## Peairtach (Sep 30, 2009)

You could also mention that in a properly organised church and society the poor (non-commercial) loan would be administered by the deacon's court of churches, whereby suitable individuals would be helped _in extremis_ or where they needed help with a valid project by their Christian brothers and sisters lending them money at no interest as per what was started in the OT.

Of course we know from Jesus' parables and elsewhere that lending money commercially at interest is not evil in itself, but loan-sharking and extortionate interest is. In a more Christianised society this whole area would have to be looked at to bring it into line with God's Word. 

Ideally Christian brothers and sisters should be looking out for each other financially as an expression of _agape_ rather than having to depend too much on state welfare and commercial lenders. This is another way in which the church could grow stronger, if it was done properly.


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## Rich Koster (Sep 30, 2009)

Use credit cards only as electronic money. 
Never write yourself a loan, it's self deception.
Don't pay interest or fees (bad stewardship), there are freebies.


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## Andres (Sep 30, 2009)

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"


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## Christusregnat (Sep 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:



Yeah, but that was the _*Old *_Testament!


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2009)

Andres said:


> credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need.



To some extent, the same thing can be said of churches who go deeply in debt to build facilities that they want, but don't need.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:
> ...



Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...


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## Christusregnat (Sep 30, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...



Name'a Adam Brink partner! Howdy!


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## py3ak (Sep 30, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?



I would think you would not go a hair beyond what you are fully persuaded of and can clearly manifest from Scripture. If you miss something this time around, the Bible speaks about theft a lot so you'll have other opportunities. But it would be wise to be very careful about sniffing out sin in something (though there's no harm in making sure you understand how something works so that you can see more clearly whether there is sin or not).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...
> ...



Fancy meeting you in these parts!


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## OPC'n (Sep 30, 2009)

As a member of a church, I would have to see consistency in your preaching in order to take you serious and be obedient. For example if you feel that loans are a sin, then all loans have to be.....not just the ones *you* feel are. So you either can or can't have a loan to buy a house and other things as long as you have enough income to pay the bills you loans incur. Or you feel that having loans is unbiblical period.


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 30, 2009)

py3ak said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?
> ...



Ruben beat me to it. Just to echo these wise words, I'd encourage you to preach strongly against what you are convinced is sin, but be careful about side commentary. Since you are speaking as a messenger from God in His pulpit, don't add "advice" that isn't clearly grounded in God's Word. Bounce some of these application sections off your wife and ask for her honest opinion whether the connection is strained or immediately apparent. I think pastors' helpmeets are often particularly good with such helpful honesty.


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## Andres (Sep 30, 2009)

Edward said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need.
> ...



I wouldn't say to some extent, I would say completely the same and true. I won't sugar coat it - churches should not being going deeply into debt for buildings they can't afford and dont need!


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## JBaldwin (Oct 1, 2009)

Dearly Bought said:


> py3ak said:
> 
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> > Romans922 said:
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I agree. 

At the same time, I think it is important to do the research on the credit card system and find out what is really there. When we finally did some research ourselves (after we had a terrible credit mess), my husband and I were shocked when we realized how much fraud, deceit, theft and outright crime is part of the credit system. Most people are clueless as to what they are really doing when they sign on the dotted line, and the credit card companies are busy making sure folks don't know. It is important that believers know this and decide for themselves if they feel they can in good conscience participate. 

While it is an issue, it is a topic that would take the time of an entire sermon to explain to folks, and it would be a diversion from the Scriptures. Rather than spending the time, I would suggest mentioning that folks look into it themselves and then be ready on the side to offer advice or refer them to someone who could educate them more thoroughly.


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## Peairtach (Oct 1, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:
> ...



I think that all the Reformed should believe in learning from the Old Testament case laws, and everything else in the OT and NT, II Timothy 3:16.

We will not necessarily see eye to eye on what is learnt in every area. But thankfully oftentimes we will. The Church, even the Reformed Church, hasn't reached a fully mature understanding and application of every part of Scripture, Ephesians 4:7-16.


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## Edward (Oct 1, 2009)

Andres said:


> Edward said:
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> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



I agree. I was trying to be nice - for a change.


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## lukeh021471 (Oct 2, 2009)

Jame Montgomery Boice as a good chapter 204 in his Romans expositional commentary on debt and sins of neglection.


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## turmeric (Oct 2, 2009)

In my humble opinion the credit-card companies are practicing usury. I am certain that debtors who can pay and don't are stealing, but lots of debtors cannot pay, particularly when hit with uxorious interest-payments. I don't think these people are stealing, but they have behaved unwisely. Again, just my opinion.


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## Blue Tick (Oct 2, 2009)

Joe Morecraft has a good teaching on debt free living. This may help.


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## coramdeo (Oct 2, 2009)

Not to go off thread too far, but as far as honesty in business goes (not loans, etc.) there is an excellent prayer in the appendix of my Geneva Bible that I have copied and posted in my office and that I pray each day. I'll paste it here in hope that it may be useful,

A prayer to be said before a
man begin his work.
O Lord God most merciful Father and Savior, seeing
it hath pleased thee to command us to travail, that
we may relieve our need, we beseech thee of thy grace so
to bless our labors, that thy blessing may extend unto
us, without the which we are not able to continue, and
that this great favor may be a witness unto us of thy
bountifulness and assistance, so that thereby we may
know the fatherly care that thou hast over us.
Moreover (O Lord) we beseech thee that thou
wouldest strengthen us with thy holy Spirit, that we
may faithfully travail in our estate and vocation, without
fraud or deceit, and that we may endeavor ourselves
to follow thine holy ordinance, rather than to seek to
satisfy our greedy affections or desire to gain.
And if it please thee (O Lord) to prosper our labor,
give us a mind also to help them that need, according
to that ability that thou of thy mercy shalt give us: And
knowing that all good things come of thee, grant that
we may humble ourselves to our neighbors, and not by
any means lift ourselves above them which have not
received so liberal a portion as of thy mercy thou hast
given unto us. And if it please thee to try and exercise
us by greater poverty and need than our flesh would
desire, that thou wouldest yet (O Lord) grant us grace
to know that thou wilt nourish us continually, through
thy bountiful liberality, that we be not so tempted, that
we fall into distrust, but that we may patiently wait till
thou fill us, not only with corporal graces and benefits,
but chiefly with thine heavenly and spiritual treasures,
to the intent we may always have more ample occasion
to give thee thanks, and wholly to rest upon thy mercies.
Hear us O Lord of mercy, through Jesus Christ thy Son
our Lord, Amen.


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## rpavich (Oct 2, 2009)

Andres said:


> credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"



So nobody here owns a house or car that they didn't pay cash for?


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## Peairtach (Oct 2, 2009)

It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?

When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?

Does anyone here believe that lending money at interest should be banned?

What would a Christianised financial system look like?


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## rpavich (Oct 2, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?
> 
> When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?
> 
> ...



I might be wrong but the bible admonition is against "making a killing off of others misfortune" as in "you need this loan and you are over a barrel? Good...it's at 45%!" type of thing.


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## Puritan Sailor (Oct 2, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?
> 
> When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?
> 
> ...



In the OT, it was wrong to charge interest to the needy. You were not allowed to profit from your brothers affliction. But commercial interest was allowed when dealing with foreigners in matters of commerce. 

Regarding the issue of modern loans though, I think we need to make a distinction between investments and loans. A mortgage is really an investment if done wisely. Same with cars or _necessary_ things. But using credit to indulge in our greeds would not be an investment in our estate but ultimately damaging our estate and soul.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 2, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?
> 
> When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?
> 
> ...



Borrowing money to buy a house or car at a fixed interest rate is a whole lot different than credit cards which have no fixed rate (they don't, because the credit card companies reserve the right to change the interest rate any time they wish). When you borrow money from a bank to make a house or car purchase, there is a truth-in-lending agreement required by law which spells out the details of the loan. 

In my humble opinion, the whole monetary system where you borrow money and pay interest so that bank can loan out more money is crooked. For the Christian who loans out money, any interest (and it should be small), should cover the cost and time of administering the loan. 

The few times my husband and I have loaned out money, we've laid down a few rules:

1) Don't lend what we can't afford to loose.
2) If we charge any extra, it's a small fee based on the amount of time and effort it costs to administer the loan. 
3) Don't lend money to someone who we don't think can pay it back, unless we want them to have it anyway. (for example, we once loaned a fairly large amount of money to a friend who we thought probably would never be able to pay us, but he desperately needed it, and he wouldn't take it without a loan. By the way, he paid back every dime.)


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## Edward (Oct 2, 2009)

rpavich said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"
> ...



Liquidity is not something to be ignored. Just because I can afford something doesn't mean that I should use available cash to acquire the asset. The difference between interest paid and interest received is the price I'm currently willing to pay for liquidity. 

And for those who believe that current policies will contribute to inflation, long term debt at current fixed rates may mean that inflation will eventually give you a negative cost for your money.


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## py3ak (Oct 2, 2009)

turmeric said:


> In my humble opinion the credit-card companies are practicing usury. I am certain that debtors who can pay and don't are stealing, but lots of debtors cannot pay, particularly when hit with uxorious interest-payments. I don't think these people are stealing, but they have behaved unwisely. Again, just my opinion.



I think you meant exorbitant, Meg. Although no doubt a lot of people in debt are excessively submissive to their wives.


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## OPC'n (Oct 2, 2009)

rpavich said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"
> ...



My dad but he's got lots of cash with which to do this. I don't know any other person who has bought a house with cash.


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## turmeric (Oct 2, 2009)

Ruben! I meant usurious, but misspelled it.


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