# The 2 Beast



## Reformed 78 (Sep 14, 2019)

I have always understood the 2nd Beast of Revelation 13 to be the Papacy. And I do think it’s important to understand the Anti-Christ to be the Pope of Rome.. However I have recently heard some make a very good case that the 2nd Beast in Revelation 13 to be the United States of America, starting out with lamb-like characteristics but begins speaking like a dragon... Any thoughts..

I guess this post would be more for those who lean toward an Historicist interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

Thanks!


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## hammondjones (Sep 14, 2019)

If that is true, then that part the book had very little meaning to the church, and would not be understandable, until however many years ago the USA became dragon-like. I'd tend to think that the letter was written to the church in every age, and interpret along those lines, so that the 2nd beast represents all false and man-made religion.

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## Poimen (Sep 14, 2019)

I love my American brothers and sisters in Christ but I must observe that as a non-American, I am often struck by the tendency (need?) for my southern neighbours to see the fulfilment of prophecies as particularly relating to their nation and current predicament. I suppose that is only a human reaction (and others in other times and places have done the same) but it would be helpful to consider that these passages are written to 7 churches of Asia Minor. The United States is not the centre of the world.

The matter of the beast appearing like a lamb and speaking like a dragon is, in fact, a ecclesiastical matter before it is a national matter. It is Christ who is being mimicked (see vs. 8) and it is God and his people that are under attack (vs. 6). The reverence given to the dragon (vs. 4) is a form of deception which leads to more false worship (vs. 14). Clearer passages in the NT, which parallel Revelation 13 by description, catalogue a deception and war being fought within the church (2 Thessalonians 2:3ff.; 1 John 2:18ff.) -though it has implications for the world. The early or proto-gnosticism which seems to be at the heart of the coming apostasy ("coming" from the perspective of the apostles) was an ecclesiastical corruption that found its seat in the blasphemous and antichrist papacy of the succeeding generations (1 Timothy 4:1ff).

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## Tom Hart (Sep 14, 2019)

Poimen said:


> America is not the centre of the world.


Ahem.

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## Poimen (Sep 14, 2019)

Okay, you got me there. But I distinctly see Canada as above (superior to) the United States.

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## hammondjones (Sep 14, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Ahem.View attachment 6272



Mercator is a decidedly unwoke projection.


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## RJ Spencer (Sep 15, 2019)

I believe that the First beast is the anti-Christ Pope. I believe the second beast is the Charismatic movement. 
From Revelation 13 we know that the two beasts work together with the second beast getting people to worship the image of the beast. To me the idea of these beasts working together disproves the SDA Church in it's insistence that the second beast is America. However they don't work in complete harmony. The second beast doesn't get the world to worship the first beast, look at verse 14 - "make an image for the beast". It does NOT say that the second beast caused people to worship the first beast. But it's image.
The first beast rose out of the sea (from among the nation's.) This second beast will rise out of the Earth. How are we to interpret earth? If we established that 'Sea' represents nation's, than it would be odd to use different symbols to represent the same thing. From a reformed perspective the term world is sometimes used to only include the elect. And Christians can be found on every single track of land. I believe that v. 11 is saying that the second beast will rise out of the Church. Also notice it has two horns like a lamb. A lamb clearly symbolizes the church, we are His Sheep. Horns symbolize power. So this false prophet will have power, and it will appear that this power is the same power given to the real church. In other words it will appear to be the true church that this beast rises out of. BUT we know that it will only appear that way, because it will speak like a dragon. The dragon throughout Revelation represents Satan. This beast will speak blasphemous things like Satan... Such as claiming to speak for God. Claiming even to be God (many in the radical NAR claim to be little gods. Creflo Dollar first claimed this). Even claiming that God can't do anything unless we allow Him to (Jesse Duplantis is the first one that said this).
V. 12. This second beast exercises all the authority of the first beast...This authority was given to the first beast by the dragon. This authority allows the beasts to trick all of the non elect. Interestingly the NAR and other charismatics are the fastest growing religious movement in the world. They are growing at an alarming rate, but no real conversions seem to take place. We know that no conversions take place because a vast majority stay in the movement, even while the leaders blaspheme God. I don't believe it would be possible for the Holy Spirit to allow a truly regenerated person to sit under false teaching without any conviction. The second beast makes the world worship the first beast, I already explained my thoughts here and verse 14. This would not necessarily mean that the NAR wants the world to worship the Pope... Although, many in this movement speak a lot about unity with the Catholic Church ie the ecumenical movement. A few years ago they had a big event at the mall of America, where the Pope and many charismatic leaders spoke together about unity. So it is possible that in the future we may see the charismatics and Catholics working together. V 12 whose mortal wound was healed. Since I was leaving it up to you to look into the Historicist view of the first beast from wiser men than myself, I will just say that most historicists are united in the view that the Reformation was the fatal wound to the head. Some however, do think the fatal wound was the great schism between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic church.
V. 13 is one of those WOW verses, that should convince people that the Charismatic church is the second beast. Also interesting that Rev 16:13 calls the second beast the false prophet, and the movement is all about prophecy chalked full of false prophecies. 
'It performs great signs' - some of the signs used in charismania include fake gold dust falling on people, "angel" feathers falling out of the vents, growing people's limbs (funny, you should watch the video),fake healings, etc etc. 'Even making fire come down from heaven. - fake Pentecost. Acts 2, the chapter used most by charismatics to promote their tongues speaks of tongues of fire that came down from heaven. There is a video of a Charismatic preacher standing on stage repeating the word "fire" over and over at the crowd making them shake and dance about. One leader was to give a sermon, he yelled the word fire over and over for 15 minutes and that was his entire message.
What is the point of all of these fake signs? Two points. 1. To make money. 2. To get people to accept a false theology. That, in my opinion, is the image of the first beast. A false theology that is centered on man and his attempt at self salvation, works salvation. Is there any worse, or more pagan idea than the idea that man can save himself? That is why Catholicism is so evil, they replace the Grace of God with rules and regulations. The same thing is going on in charismania and they've even gone more extreme with it. Pelagianism and Arminianism was bad enough, but now they promote open theism, universalism, and they even claim that God is bound. They say God can only act if we allow Him to. The first beast, the Pope, claimed to be God the 'vicar of Christ'. The second beast, charismatics, claim that we are all gods. What is more pagan than that? Pagans have gods for everything, so to do charismatics, they claim that there is a spirit behind everything. My own father in law is a Pentecostal preacher, he talks about spirits and demons all of the time. Oftentimes these spirits seem to be demi gods. Just to bring up one other thing, The Greek in Revelation 13:18 does not have a definitive article. So I do not believe that 666 is the number of A man, I believe that it is the number of mankind. I think that 666 being Nero is the best argument that the preterist school likes to use and I don't believe that it is true to the text. The seal does not have to be literal because we see God stamp believers in a similar way. The number being a representation of mankind fits with the idea that the "image of the beast" is this man centered works based religion.

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## RJ Spencer (Sep 15, 2019)

Sorry for such a long reply, I have been sharing these things with someone else in private chat and rather than rewriting everything I decided to just copy and paste.


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## Ed Walsh (Sep 15, 2019)

Poimen said:


> But I distinctly see Canada as above (superior to) the United States.



But it's pink.

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## Reformed 78 (Sep 15, 2019)

hammondjones said:


> If that is true, then that part the book had very little meaning to the church, and would not be understandable, until however many years ago the USA became dragon-like. I'd tend to think that the letter was written to the church in every age, and interpret along those lines, so that the 2nd beast represents all false and man-made religion.



I don’t know.. I mean, I lean toward a progressive parallelism in Book of Revelation. But, Daniel lived on into the Persian empire. (Kingdom of silver Dan 2/Bear Dan 7) and the third and fourth beast(Greece/Rome) we’re still future to him.. John sees all four of Daniel 7 beasts together as one conglomerate beast. You can’t say the first conglomerate beast of Revelation 13 has no historical referent because Daniel has already shown it does. Therefore the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 should have historical referent as well...


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 15, 2019)

Poimen said:


> I love my American brothers and sisters in Christ but I must observe that as a non-American, I am often struck by the tendency (need?) for my southern neighbours to see the fulfilment of prophecies as particularly relating to their nation and current predicament. I suppose that is only a human reaction (and others in other times and places have done the same) but it would be helpful to consider that these passages are written to 7 churches of Asia Minor. The United States is not the centre of the world.
> 
> The matter of the beast appearing like a lamb and speaking like a dragon is, in fact, a ecclesiastical matter before it is a national matter. It is Christ who is being mimicked (see vs. 8) and it is God and his people that are under attack (vs. 6). The reverence given to the dragon (vs. 4) is a form of deception which leads to more false worship (vs. 14). Clearer passages in the NT, which parallel Revelation 13 by description, catalogue a deception and war being fought within the church (2 Thessalonians 2:3ff.; 1 John 2:18ff.) -though it has implications for the world. The early or proto-gnosticism which seems to be at the heart of the coming apostasy ("coming" from the perspective of the apostles) was an ecclesiastical corruption that found its seat in the blasphemous and antichrist papacy of the succeeding generations (1 Timothy 4:1ff).



That is a really good point!! That helps as I think through this!


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## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 16, 2019)

Hello Adam,

The general consensus in the Amillennial (or _present_ millennium) school is that the beast from the sea (Rev 13:1-9) at the time John wrote, is Rome—the military/political entity that persecutes the saints—and that the beast from the land (Rev 13:11ff.) signified the false teachings or philosophies supporting the first beast. The second beast is also referred to as the false prophet (Rev 16:13; 19:20; 20:10).

The original WCF, from 1646, states,

There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, the man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself, in the church, against Christ and all that is called God” (art. 25.6).​
The 1689 London Baptist Confession, at 26.4, follows the older 1646 WCF.

The American version of the Westminster Confession, however (used by the PCA and OPC), omits the second half of the second sentence:

There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof.​
The pope loomed large in the 1600s and 1700s, whereas now that is not the case, or so it appears at the moment, though the papacy does indeed bear close watching.

Back to the two beasts: the contemporary amils view any Christian-persecuting governments since John wrote as continuing manifestations of the beast, and all false teachers supporting these beast entities as recapitulations of the second beast or false prophet. Most of these amils anticipate a final manifestation of both the first and second beasts at the end of the last days, that is, at the time of Armageddon (the global war against the saints). The American Presbyterians wanted to leave room for other contenders for the title of a final antichrist, lest we be blind-sided by a limited focus only on Rome.

It is understood by some that the final Babylonian empire—generally understood as the entire world system against God and His people—has a headquarters nation, even as the Babylonian empire of Chaldea had its headquarters (the vast city of Babylon) and the Roman Empire had hers (the city-state of Rome). The American Empire which militarily, economically, and culturally dominates most of the world (though it is in decline now) is seen by some amils as the present headquarters nation of latter-day Babylon.

I attach a paper on the topic fleshing out this viewpoint, _The Fate of Babylon: 
A Study in Determining the Identity and Demise of Babylon in John’s Apocalypse_:

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## hammondjones (Sep 16, 2019)

Reformed 78 said:


> I don’t know.. I mean, I lean toward a progressive parallelism in Book of Revelation. But, Daniel lived on into the Persian empire. (Kingdom of silver Dan 2/Bear Dan 7) and the third and fourth beast(Greece/Rome) we’re still future to him.. John sees all four of Daniel 7 beasts together as one conglomerate beast. You can’t say the first conglomerate beast of Revelation 13 has no historical referent because Daniel has already shown it does. Therefore the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 should have historical referent as well...



I'm no expert, certainly, but it seems like we view the book's audience/purpose slightly differently. It also kind of strikes me as a form of "chronological snobbery" to see the USA in there at all, besides other considerations, as we are assuming that we are at the pinnacle (nadir?) of history. And actually, since no one asked me, I'd also say that I personally hesitate to call the RCC "THE Antichrist", as how do I know how history will play out? What if we are still in the early church? Should the Lord tarry 10,000 years, how do I know that Rome isn't a minor player, long-term? Maybe there'll be a second Reformation better than the first. Maybe for most of history the center of Christianity will be China. Anyways, just not eager to pin this down to one time/nation, but again, I know very little.


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 23, 2019)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Adam,
> 
> The general consensus in the Amillennial (or _present_ millennium) school is that the beast from the sea (Rev 13:1-9) at the time John wrote, is Rome—the military/political entity that persecutes the saints—and that the beast from the land (Rev 13:11ff.) signified the false teachings or philosophies supporting the first beast. The second beast is also referred to as the false prophet (Rev 16:13; 19:20; 20:10).
> 
> ...



THANK YOU!

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## RJ Spencer (Sep 23, 2019)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Adam,
> 
> The general consensus in the Amillennial (or _present_ millennium) school is that the beast from the sea (Rev 13:1-9) at the time John wrote, is Rome—the military/political entity that persecutes the saints—and that the beast from the land (Rev 13:11ff.) signified the false teachings or philosophies supporting the first beast. The second beast is also referred to as the false prophet (Rev 16:13; 19:20; 20:10).
> :



My belief in a charismatic second beast ties in with this very historical understanding. I expand on the idea of Rome being the first beast to include the Roman catholic church, and view the second beast as a continuation of that (catholic) man centered belief system. To me the largest group promoting man centered theology is the Charismatic movement. As Sinclair Furgeson once said, "The greatest threat facing Christianity today is modern Christendom."
Perhaps I should expand on my view that Charismania is the second beast to include man centered Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism.


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 24, 2019)

Having been saved in 2001 in an AoG Church and cut my teeth in Pentecostal and Word of Faith Theology before eventually becoming Reformed (long story). And being very aquatinted with the Charismatic Movement I would definitely Amen Sinclair Ferguson’s words that you quoted above!


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 24, 2019)

The Charismatic Movement is an absolute disaster and WoF teacher Kenneth Copeland standing with Pope Francis and arrogantly declaring the Reformation to be over is a sure mark of apostasy!

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