# Al Mohler: Is Matriarchy the Shape of the Future?



## panta dokimazete (Jan 19, 2008)

article here - very sad trend, but not an unexpected one in a declining society - what are the young men doing? I suspect it is both "metrosexualization" and extended adolescence.


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## Zenas (Jan 19, 2008)

Scary. I think of my own future children, particularly my daughters (should I be blessed with any). How will we find a man for them to marry who can lead them the way they are supposed to? My fiancee' and I have often remarked that it's really sad, even amoung the Christians our age that we know, how under-motivated the men are at pursuing an education in a timely manner, or even period. The women are especially upset at this, because they see no real prospects for them to marry, only 25 year old men who act like they're 16. 

When I was in undergrad, the trend was noticable. The men that I knew would either fail out of school, drop out, or just take 8 years to get a 4 year degree, whereas the women were motivated to succeed. They graduated in 5 or 6 years, where it took the men 8. There was a girl I knew who was graduating in 5 years with the intent to go to law school, whereas her boyfriend was going to be in school for 6 or 7 years to get a degree in "film" (totally useless degree unless you want to make a 5 minute film that will be breifly shown at the Sundance Film Festival). Not only are men being out performed, but those who do graduate, can't do a thing with their degrees. It is the women who are striving for the law degrees, accountant degrees, etc., whereas the men want "film" and "criminal justice" (I'm guilty), or "poly sci" degrees. 


Sad but true.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 19, 2008)

Matriarchy is the primary reason for the decapitation of the African American family structure.

In addition public school swill encourage the trend. I am a firm believer that when a boy reaches 12 his educational curriculum should be different from a girl's. I have seen the results of this mis education in my life, but thanks to God's providence I came to the reformed faith.


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## SRoper (Jan 19, 2008)

I never saw this when I was studying electrical engineering (I think the ratio of men to women was about 30:1 when I graduated a few years ago), but I definitely see it now. At my church the women my age are far more educated than the men. In our group most people have a bachelor's degree, but it's the women who are going to graduate school. It makes finding a wife more complicated because most of the women I talk to don't want to "waste their education" by staying at home with the kids.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 19, 2008)

SRoper said:


> ... most of the women I talk to don't want to "waste their education" by staying at home with the kids.



Which is why though in the near long-term this matriarchalism looks omninous, I don't believe in the far long-term it will survive. 

Patriarchalism will win in the long run because we're the ones having the babies and passing on our values.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2008)

There has to actually be a family to have matriarchy.


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## SRoper (Jan 19, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> > ... most of the women I talk to don't want to "waste their education" by staying at home with the kids.
> ...



I'm not as optimistic. Children are a status symbol again. I'm seeing large families where both parents work full-time. Since mom has an advanced degree they can afford the child care. Also, it is more common for dad to stay home.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> There has to actually be a family to have matriarchy.



there just has to be a sexually-driven man and a woman wanting to have sex regardless of the consequences. 

Of course, many might not want babies, but that sometimes happens when boy meets girl.


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## Quickened (Jan 19, 2008)

SRoper said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > SRoper said:
> ...



After reading that article and dwelling on it. I guess i could see it being a possibility that the dad's will revert into a less domineering role. Perhaps a stay at home dad or even a dad that works part time. 

Part of me sees the fact that men have their priorities all wrong. In days of old it seems that men focused on education and getting a good solid career to help start a family with a wife. Now-a-days men are more focused on blowing off college or having dismal attendence while they try to party it up and have numerous partners. Its as if "family" isnt a focal point. Its as if that these two activities take front and center stage so if they dont make boat loads of money its no real big deal to them. As long as they have the basics.

On the other hand i think women have the idea that they have been repressed throughout the history of the world and now is the time to advance one's self. 

What we see isnt as dangerous to the family as it will be to our country. Dont get me wrong the "family" part will be screwed up but lets face it.... alot of people are question the institute of marrage given the recent increases in divorce. People are getting married for the wrong reason and then divorce happens. Another case of poor priorities.

I would be curious to see how the secular world approaches this in thought. The christian response to this is what any of us would expect.

Its not good but i dont see it being or getting really bad until maybe 20-30 years when these college grads have their own kids and those kids see the example set by their parents. I would like to see the numbers then.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 19, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Scary. I think of my own future children, particularly my daughters (should I be blessed with any). How will we find a man for them to marry who can lead them the way they are supposed to? My fiancee' and I have often remarked that it's really sad, even amoung the Christians our age that we know, how under-motivated the men are at pursuing an education in a timely manner, or even period. The women are especially upset at this, because they see no real prospects for them to marry, only 25 year old men who act like they're 16.
> 
> 
> Sad but true.



We are living in the midst of a revolt against maturity; the church is contributing to this as there seems to be a tendency to perpetuate immaturity among the young people. This is especially sad to see in young men.


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## Zenas (Jan 19, 2008)

Yeah, I see it running rampant in college youth groups. No one is in the mindset of "I want to get married in the next 3 to 4 years, I'd better start preparing now." Rather, they're thinking "I have to get married at some point, I'd better have fun and hang out with my friends now."


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 19, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Yeah, I see it running rampant in college youth groups. No one is in the mindset of "I want to get married in the next 3 to 4 years, I'd better start preparing now." Rather, they're thinking "I have to get married at some point, I'd better have fun and hang out with my friends now."



Yes, I dread to think what sort of husbands and fathers such men will make.


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## Zenas (Jan 19, 2008)

They won't. The girls won't consider them and they're willing to marry older men.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 19, 2008)

Zenas said:


> They won't. The girls won't consider them and they're willing to marry older men.



I hope you are right.


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## Zenas (Jan 19, 2008)

My fiancee's dad was trying to get her to marry much older than herself until I came along. I'm a year younger than her.  I kind of wrecked hiswhole idea of what he was looking for in a son in law.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 19, 2008)

Zenas said:


> My fiancee's dad was trying to get her to marry much older than herself until I came along. I'm a year younger than her.  I kind of wrecked hiswhole idea of what he was looking for in a son in law.



You can't be that bad or else he would have pulled the plug on the courtship.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 19, 2008)

I don't have demographic statistics, but I see a counter-trend in my small circle. There are a lot of grunge-tatoo-"slacker" types around here who are getting married, working hard, buying houses, going to school, etc. The husbands are men and natural leaders, and the women, while driven and happy to work, often express a goal to get to the point to be stay at home moms. I'm seeing this in twenty-somethings--girls with nose rings tenderly bouncing obviously well cared-for infants during the day while going about errands. It is a remarkable difference from just 10 years ago.

So maybe there is a swing we don't see yet.

Another thing about this area is that many have pretty good jobs with a two-year degree. They see that learning a trade is more cost-effective (in terms of starting work sooner than a directionless college student). Kids seem quite focused compared to a decade ago. 

I hope so, maybe we are trendsetters on the left coast, demographicly--or maybe I'm just in an odd backwater.


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## Zenas (Jan 20, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > My fiancee's dad was trying to get her to marry much older than herself until I came along. I'm a year younger than her.  I kind of wrecked hiswhole idea of what he was looking for in a son in law.
> ...



Well he was thinking a child raised in a covenant family, raised Reformed, groomed to lead a family...

What he got was a kid that was converted at 20, raised by an Arminian and a Pelagian (though they don't know what that is), having had no notion instilled in him of proper Biblical headship. 

This isn't to say I do not have that idea now, nor am I not Reformed to the core, but he simply had something different in mind. 

We also never technically dated or courted. In their eyes, we went form being friends that just "hung out" with each other for like 3 years, to being engaged. And they did threaten to cut us off a few times, an encouraged her to find someone else.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 20, 2008)

Slippery said:


> Matriarchy is the primary reason for the decapitation of the African American family structure.



Very sad but true. I often think it is very sad that others helped create this situation but now it is a full-flung disaster. The "White American" family structure is only a couple of generations behind.

If you "look behind the green curtain" of many Churches in the inner city it is incredibly frightening. My friend taught in a Chuch in Raleigh and he recalled that there wasn't a single inner city Church where there wasn't some major sexual scandal among the pastors and elders there.

I'm not relating this to "point fingers" as if white Christians are somehow better but it is a frightening trend that will soon mark the Church at large in America (and already is).

I sometimes feel like I came from a completely different era even when I look around at people in my own peer group. Men today want to remain children forever and they "date" and live with women that allow them to act like that. Women are completely objectified in society and have come to accept it, in large measure, as normal to be used sexually by men.

My wife was asked if she needed a certain test to be run during pregnancy. She asked what it was for and the doctor said it really wasn't necessary if she hadn't been through multiple sexual partners. The doctor (a female) was amazed (and you could tell envious) that Sonya had only one in her entire life. It is very heartbreaking that even when I was a kid (teenager) that was still normal for women to *not* have pre-marital sex but my same peers in twenty years went through an entire societal transformation where it's abnormal if one has not.

I suppose I could go on but I'll simply note one last decline that concerns me from a societal level and that is that mostly what is left in society today are effeminate men and men who only express natural male agression in very violent ways. On the one hand we have generations of boys who were cowed by the idea that dodgeball is bad and were treated like mutants if they ever got into fist fights and they've had no fathers at home to teach them how to redirect and discipline that energy into constructive ways or toward the idea that they protect the weak. 

I think I told some of you the story recently where James (5) was at a kids play area and Sonya looked over and he had jumped on a 3 year old boy and was punching him yelling "leave my sister alone". Sonya was initially horrified but the child's mother ran up telling her son to stop kicking Sophia (my 1 year old). The boy had, out of the blue, knocked down James' sister and was kicking her. Sophia was helpless but James would have none of it and knocked the boy down and punched him. I don't know how many of the MOA (Mothers of America) who don't have fathers around would be able to tell what was really great and what needed to be focused for James to make sure he understood that what he did was fantastic from a certain aspect but he also needed a few things explained to him.

Anyhow, I think we're likely to have a society of men that will not only be completely ambivalent toward truth but there will be a divide between the criminally violent and the effeminate with very little Biblical masculinity in the middle. It will be like a trough instead of a bell curve. Enter Islam and other forces of evil in this world that will continue to outpace the population growth of a society that hates children and we're in for some real violence ahead. Many connect the emasculation of French Society during her Bohemian era with her decline from a once formidable power to her current whiny, cowed, and socialized society that has been defeated repeatedly and handily by a fierce foe.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 20, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Scary. I think of my own future children, particularly my daughters (should I be blessed with any). How will we find a man for them to marry who can lead them the way they are supposed to?


By the time it comes to searching for husbands for my daughter I make a prediction that we'll probably see fora like this turn into places where we're arranging marriages using PM's.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 20, 2008)




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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 20, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > Scary. I think of my own future children, particularly my daughters (should I be blessed with any). How will we find a man for them to marry who can lead them the way they are supposed to?
> ...



Tried that; no joy so far.


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## Zenas (Jan 20, 2008)

I wouldn't be against the idea honestly.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jan 20, 2008)

After reading through the article, I have a few observations:

Are we trying to equate a college education with a man's ability to be the leader in his home? I am sure that there are lots of men in the trades who would disagree with that. Here in Alberta, tradesmen frequently command a greater income than their classmates and otherwise have better job prospects. Sometimes choosing not to go to college is the correct decision, based on the man's gifts and goals.

Second, in my experience in the sciences, I certainly didn't notice women taking over at school. There might be lots of women taking education or the social sciences, but when it comes to engineering and the geosciences the trend the author is pointing out doesn't seem to correspond at least to my experience.

Having said that, my boss is a woman (granted she is tough as nails and smart a any guy), and I think that there is unfortunately a generation of women of college age right now who have been brainwashed into thinking that being a mother and home-maker isn't a valuable and respectable career. That, and the general slackness and lack of vision that many young people seem to exhibit (maybe I'm getting old and my parents thought the same thing about my generation) do not bode well for the future.

Eric in Cowtown


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 20, 2008)

Matriarchy found empowerment, to use a word valued by secularism, through the counter culture feminist movement and the nation's embarrassing penchant for divorce.

Divorce made it common place and acceptable, often necessary in the face of deadbeat fathers.


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## BJClark (Jan 20, 2008)

> The girls won't consider them and they're willing to marry older men.



Or they will opt to remain single and never marry..

My daughter is 19, she is in college and desires to marry one day..just not right now..

She looks around at friends she graduated with, many of who are pregnant, and not married..these same friends, last year wanted to 'fix' her up with one of these boys they are friends with...she wasn't interested..they all call her snobby and claim her "Standards are to HIGH". I continually tell her NO THEY AREN'T!!

She refuses to date men who have no goals for their lives, she refuses to date men who would rather party than study or place work as a priority, who do not think about their futures and what they want out of life, and what they can contribute to life...

She has been asked out by many guys whom she considers boys..because they are not emotionally mature..they, like her friends tell her she needs to lower her standards, or she'll never get married..She just tells them the same thing she tells me, "well, if it takes lowering my standards to get a date, then I guess, I'll never date or get married, and I'm okay with that." And she is not afraid to tell them, maybe they need to start raising their own standards and start thinking about what they want to do in life..

And I pray for her, that if it is in God's plan for her life, that in HIS time, He will bring a man into her life who has the same values and beliefs she does..who is both emotionally and spiritually strong..and if it's not, that He will help me as her mom to accept it as she seems to have accepted...


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## Zenas (Jan 20, 2008)

The maxim of "lower your standards" seems to be exactly what got everyone into this mess. It's amazing how people can't step back and look at their lives and the consequences of their decisions and analyze them objectively. If they did, perhaps they wouldn't wander around giving such shoddy advice. 

She should definitely wait. My fiancee' claims that it will pay off, albeit I don't think I'm much of a reward.  Men like those she is looking for are looking for a woman like her as well, niether of which are terribly common, and so it takes some time. In my case, God had a lot of work to do with me and my life before we came to this point, so maybe that's what's going on.

At any rate, 19 years old certainly isn't the point to pre-determine that there just isn't a godly man to be a husband out there, nor is it the time to "lower your standards". Does a diamond miner lower his standards and accept a rose quartz because it is common and the diamond is not? Certainly it would take longer to find the diamond, but that's why it's rare anyway.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 20, 2008)

I resonate (unfortunately) with much of what has been said. But, trends do not tell the full story. Kids in Christian homes often do better than these averages.

My oldest two sons, married Godly women, at the end of their junior years in college (age 21 and all four virgins). Both of them hold masters degrees, one also has a J.D. The older son has his third son due any week now (31 years old); the second boy has a nearly 1 yr old (29 years old).

My older daughter went through college and seminary, dating sparingly for some of the reasons mentioned in the trends identified. She refused to lower her standards, however. When she was training for cross-cultural missionary service (mentoring teenage daughters of missionaries at a German boarding school), she met a young man 3 years her senior who was preparing to be a missionary teacher in Bolivia. They have been married a year now (29 and 26 years old).

My fourth child dropped out of college, moved in with a girlfriend, broke my wife and my hearts, and seemed destined to fit in with the cultural trends. Surprise of surprises, they got married this past summer and are making signs of walking with the Lord (go figure). He is 23, she is 26 and a university graduate.

So, one of my kids sounds like the cultural norm; three of them bucked the trend; one is still at home. We have limited power to change cultural trends. However, we have real opportunities to make a difference in our own homes.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 20, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> We have limited power to change cultural trends. However, we have real opportunities to make a difference in our own homes.


 I think my concern is more about the kind of society that my children and I will have to live in that continues to degenerate due to this cultural norm.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 20, 2008)

ericfromcowtown said:


> After reading through the article, I have a few observations:
> 
> Are we trying to equate a college education with a man's ability to be the leader in his home? I am sure that there are lots of men in the trades who would disagree with that. Here in Alberta, tradesmen frequently command a greater income than their classmates and otherwise have better job prospects. Sometimes choosing not to go to college is the correct decision, based on the man's gifts and goals.
> 
> ...



Eric,

You do know that Cow Town is Fort Worth, Texas right? 

Anyway, massive social trends are hard to predict. No indicator is perfect but the fact that women are pursuing higher education at a rate of 1.5 to men is a huge trend.

Look, I know full well that a college degree is not a magic pill that means that the person will succeed. People ignoring the larger picture will always bring out the High School graduate that "did well" compared to the bum with the Masters Degree.

Nevertheless, while statistics can be made to lie it is simply indisputable that those who pursue higher education outstrip those who do not in almost every measurable category. You can so closely correlate the amount of education that a social group receives to criminal behavior or other kinds of things that it is hard to dispute.

I've thought about why it is that something like education would seperate a person so much and I have concluded that it has something to do with self-discipline. Again, there are always exceptions, but schooling requires a level of commitment and regular discipline of your time and resources to graduate that those who complete higher education tend to have more self-discipline than those who give up on it. It's reflected in their lives, their work ethic, and ultimately their families. There may be other things that contributed to this but I think this is probably the key issue.

By the way, I'm not at all against women pursuing higher education. My problem with this trend has to do with men remaining infants and/or becoming effeminate or violent. I think the general trend has to do with sloth among men.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 20, 2008)

sad to say if I had a daughter today I would definitely encourage her to pursue her education as a means of insurance if she does not get a Biblical Husband. But in addition to encouraging my "supposed daughter" to pursue education, I will also try to ensure that she is also trained in the ways of a Biblical woman, so that when and if married she can perform her God given duties with competence.

As for boys, one time I was in the gym and the guys were all talking. I told them point blank, if my son gets a girlfriend at 16, I am breaking them up.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 20, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> By the way, I'm not at all against women pursuing higher education. My problem with this trend has to do with men remaining infants and/or becoming effeminate or violent. I think the general trend has to do with sloth among men.


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## Poimen (Jan 20, 2008)

Slippery said:


> Matriarchy is the primary reason for the decapitation of the African American family structure.



Curious: could you explain/expand on this a little more?


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## BJClark (Jan 20, 2008)

Zenas;



> The maxim of "lower your standards" seems to be exactly what got everyone into this mess. It's amazing how people can't step back and look at their lives and the consequences of their decisions and analyze them objectively. If they did, perhaps they wouldn't wander around giving such shoddy advice.



I can certainly look back at my own life and know I did just this...lowered the bar..and I try to take what God has taught me, and teach my kids..




> At any rate, 19 years old certainly isn't the point to pre-determine that there just isn't a godly man to be a husband out there, nor is it the time to "lower your standards". Does a diamond miner lower his standards and accept a rose quartz because it is common and the diamond is not? Certainly it would take longer to find the diamond, but that's why it's rare anyway.



She's not in any hurry, and she really hasn't pre-determined there just are no Godly men out there, she knows there are..she just acknowledges she hasn't met the right one yet...and she's fine with that..

And I keep telling my kids, God is preparing the right person for you..don't try and step ahead of him...if you do, it will only lead to pain and heart ache and many more struggles that can easily be avoid if you just wait on Him..Not that they won't have pain, heart ache and struggles, but they can be fewer..


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## Zenas (Jan 20, 2008)

I was one of those infantile, violent men that was spoken of above.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jan 20, 2008)

*Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics*



> Anyway, massive social trends are hard to predict. No indicator is perfect but the fact that women are pursuing higher education at a rate of 1.5 to men is a huge trend.
> 
> Look, I know full well that a college degree is not a magic pill that means that the person will succeed. People ignoring the larger picture will always bring out the High School graduate that "did well" compared to the bum with the Masters Degree.
> 
> ...



I agree that no indicator is perfect, but I believe that it's an oversimplification to equate less men achieving an undergraduate degree to a crisis of leadership in our homes and churches. I think that we need to dig into the 1:5 statistic and see what types of education men are not pursuing. If they're not pursuing English Literature and Basket Weaving degrees that will lead them nowhere but being a highly educated barista, then hooray! I'd rather my future daughter be engaged to a boiler maker with his sights set on becoming a journeyman or operating his own business than the above any day. This isn't to say that I don't value a university degree, I do, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

Furthermore, as I wouldn't count lack of an undergraduate degree against someone becoming an elder in my church, I wouldn't want to suggest that someone without an undergraduate degree will not provide leadership in his home. So, I'm not convinced that there is necessarily a correlation between less men achieving degrees with the apparent lack of leadership men are showing at home.

I think that the flip-side, that more and more women are achieving degrees, is perhaps more troublesome. Not that I think that there is anything wrong with an individual woman wanting to educate herself, but perhaps there is a correlation between more-and-more women pursuing higher education with women not wanting to submit to their husband's leadership or not viewing motherhood as a respectable calling.

Interesting statistic, though. What I'd be interested in is the changing average age that men are leaving home as a bell weather of this generation's maturity. Milestones like leaving home, getting married, and buying a home seem to be happening later and later in life.


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## Zenas (Jan 20, 2008)

I would be interested in seeing what kind of degrees women are pursuing.

I know a lot of women at my school are pursuing the classic nursing degree, whereas others are pursuing those underwater basket weaving degrees (Poli. Sci., English, History, Crim. Justice.) The Engineering school appears to be predominately male, with the business school predominately male too. My Law School also seems to be more male than female. 

That's the way it seems to me, at least. It might be true that more women are in college, but that they're not pursuing degrees with any value or meaning.


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## Herald (Jan 20, 2008)

My daughter is 17 and I have given a lot of thought as to what she will do after high school. College? If so, why? If yes, what major? Is she going to be a career woman or to be a well educated mother who will raise children? How much of this is my decision? I have a good friend of mine who ruled his family by decree. There was no doubt that he loves his six children, but the desires they had for school and career were secondary. He never told his two oldest what college to attend but only offered to pay for their education if they went to the college of his choice. As a result both children rebelled, left the house and are financing college on their own. Their relationship with their father and mother is strained. 

I want to influence my daughters choices while respecting her as an individual. I also want to help her figure out what she wants to do with her life. I would be pleased if she went on the mission field or decided to raise a family. Perhaps the Lord has a different direction for her, one that I have yet to see. She has been raised to be a godly young woman who will bring glory to God in womanhood. Maybe I should become postmil because I believe godly families play a strong part in rescuing the family in general, not just from matriarchy but for all manner of ills.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 20, 2008)

My older daughter majored in Communications in college and took her M.A. in "Spiritual Formation and Discipleship." She now teaches at a large Christian high school. My younger daughter is on the net tonight checking out colleges with a view to business administration majors.


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## BJClark (Jan 21, 2008)

Zenas;




> I would be interested in seeing what kind of degrees women are pursuing.



My daughter is pursuing a degree in Early Childhood Education, with a Business Minor, she wants to own a daycare. She already has her CDA; she got that while in High School taking Childcare courses.



> Child Development Associate, the CDA Credential awarded to those in the Early Care & Education by The Council for Professional Recognition to work with Infants, Toddlers, or Preschoolers



her cousin, same age goes to Embry Riddle, started out wanting to be an Aeronautical Engineer, and has since changed her major, and now wants to be an Air Traffic Controller..

And some of their friends who are in college are getting their degree's in Education and Nursing..

My younger sister who is in college as well, started out wanting to be a Vet, now wants to be a Department of Defense Teacher over seas..but then she also wanted to get a degree in Business for awhile too..so I honestly don't think she really knows what she wants her degree in, but I think it may change back to Business or something to do with banking, as she's been working at a bank and loving it...and that just seems to suit her better than teaching, for who God has created her to be..

One of my younger daughters friends who is going to be graduating high school this year wants to go to college to 'find' a husband, as she wants to be a homemaker..I let her know that is a wonderful goal, but she needs to be praying about the kind of husband she wants to 'find', as she doesn't want just any man for a husband..


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 21, 2008)

ericfromcowtown said:


> > Anyway, massive social trends are hard to predict. No indicator is perfect but the fact that women are pursuing higher education at a rate of 1.5 to men is a huge trend.
> >
> > Look, I know full well that a college degree is not a magic pill that means that the person will succeed. People ignoring the larger picture will always bring out the High School graduate that "did well" compared to the bum with the Masters Degree.
> >
> ...


I think if you removed the chip off of your shoulder you might actually understand and appreciate the point that was already made. For ever 1 male getting a "Basket Weaving" degree there are 1.5 females getting one. Incidentally, neither of my grandfathers had a college degree. I don't despise a man for his lack of a college degree nor do I hold him in higher esteem. I take men as they come. Even as you are concerned about oversimplification, I found your counter analysis to be more of the same.



> Furthermore, as I wouldn't count lack of an undergraduate degree against someone becoming an elder in my church, I wouldn't want to suggest that someone without an undergraduate degree will not provide leadership in his home. So, I'm not convinced that there is necessarily a correlation between less men achieving degrees with the apparent lack of leadership men are showing at home.


Thank you for the soliloquy. I'm not aware of anyone who suggested otherwise.



> I think that the flip-side, that more and more women are achieving degrees, is perhaps more troublesome. Not that I think that there is anything wrong with an individual woman wanting to educate herself, but perhaps there is a correlation between more-and-more women pursuing higher education with women not wanting to submit to their husband's leadership or not viewing motherhood as a respectable calling.


I'm not sure how this correlates as they are simply getting degrees in basket weaving. This is a useful skill around the home.

Again, if I had to guess I'd say you do not have an undergraduate degree and that any suggestion that higher education as a general rule is an indicator of anything probably strikes you as very personal. As I stated, every statistic has its exception but general rules are what they are. I'm sure there were probably some Cretans that weren't liars at the time Paul repeated the general rule of thumb.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 21, 2008)

Zenas said:


> I would be interested in seeing what kind of degrees women are pursuing.
> 
> I know a lot of women at my school are pursuing the classic nursing degree, whereas others are pursuing those underwater basket weaving degrees (Poli. Sci., English, History, Crim. Justice.) The Engineering school appears to be predominately male, with the business school predominately male too. My Law School also seems to be more male than female.
> 
> That's the way it seems to me, at least. It might be true that more women are in college, but that they're not pursuing degrees with any value or meaning.



There's a small secret that society doesn't really tell you: with few exceptions it really doesn't matter where you went to school or the degree you received - you just gotta have one to get your foot in the door to most places. Certainly some places require a certain type of degree to measure technical acumen in a certain area but you still have to be trained in whatever work it is you'll be doing. The plan fact is that you also either use much of the stuff you learn in college or you lose it (not completely but a great deal of it is lost). I have a BS in Nuclear Engineering and an MS in Electrical Engineering. It doesn't mean that I could jump right into designing a circuit board or a digital signal processor but it does mean that I once could and understand that stuff.

More generically, though, people will get hired for certain jobs as long as they have Bachelor's Degrees and then be able to advance on the basis of performance. Nobody really cares, at that point, where you went to school or what your degree was but they care about performance. The only time the discussion of alma matters comes up in the workplace is when people are talking about College Football.


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## BJClark (Jan 21, 2008)

SemperFideles;




> There's a small secret that society doesn't really tell you: with few exceptions it really doesn't matter where you went to school or the degree you received - you just gotta have one to get your foot in the door to most places. Certainly some places require a certain type of degree to measure technical acumen in a certain area but you still have to be trained in whatever work it is you'll be doing. The plan fact is that you also either use much of the stuff you learn in college or you lose it (not completely but a great deal of it is lost). I have a BS in Nuclear Engineering and an MS in Electrical Engineering. It doesn't mean that I could jump right into designing a circuit board or a digital signal processor but it does mean that I once could and understand that stuff.



I agree, it doesn't matter what college you went to as long as you go. I don't have a degree in Electrical Engineering, but I could repair a circuit board, if I had the schematics to look at, and the equipment to test which diode or electrode needed to be replaced..but in that I don't have a piece of paper saying I have a degree in doing this...I couldn't get a job in that field..

Doesn't matter that I had various classes in Electronics teaching me how, or that I have hands on experience..employers want that piece of paper.

Just as it doesn't matter how much life experience you've had in dealing with depression or healing through various life issues, if you don't have a piece of paper from a college and take the state required exams, you can't open a practice in counseling..

Just as with my daughter working in a daycare center, she needs at least 120 hours of training and taking the test's showing she knows what she's doing in order to get a job working in a daycare center in Florida..and to get her Directors License she needs to go take one more class, but she has to be at least 21 to take that course.

So yes, there is that unwritten rule in some fields that you need a degree, even in the Construction Field, if you want to go up the career ladder, there are certain training classes you need to take to be a Superintendent or a Project Manager, they don't do the OTJ anymore on teaching you which paperwork you need to fill out, or how to bid a job, they send you to classes for that now..but they will teach a secretary how to type a job contract, type a job bid, notice to owner, release of lien, and how to bill a draw on the job..about the only thing they will send you to class for is if they also want you to be a Notary as that comes from the State, and requires you know certain state laws to be a Notary.


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## BJClark (Jan 21, 2008)

BaptistInCrisis;



> My daughter is 17 and I have given a lot of thought as to what she will do after high school. College? If so, why? If yes, what major? Is she going to be a career woman or to be a well educated mother who will raise children? How much of this is my decision?



If she is not sure what she wants to do, encourage her to at least attend a Community College to get her AS or AA, employers look at that as well. The classes for the first two years are pretty much the same at any college. English, Math, Science, Humanities, History, Electives, and at least one Computer class teaching MSWord...and soforth..and the community college courses are typically less expensive per credit hour than a 4 year college. And then if she decides to further her education later those credits should transfer over to pretty much any University, be it three years from now, or 10 years from now..they never go away..

And in that most college students change their degree on average about 3 times during the years they are in college, it really doesn't matter what she wants to do at this point..if she marries after those two years, she could always go back later and not have to take those classes again..

Something else you may want to consider, even if she wants to be a SAHM, she may decide to homeschool or need to help her kids with homework in various subjects, and not that you need a degree to homeschool your children, it could be helpful with some of the math and science classes.

What grade is your daughter in now? And do any of the community colleges in your area offer Duel Enrollment? If so, she could take college classes while still in High School, getting credit for both high school graduation and college, and she wouldn't need to take those classes again, but the classes and books are free at that point. Or if she could take AP or IB classes while in High School, some of those can also take the place of college classes depending on her grades...


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 21, 2008)

Poimen said:


> Slippery said:
> 
> 
> > Matriarchy is the primary reason for the decapitation of the African American family structure.
> ...


The African American community is largely Matriarchal. There are many reasons proffered for this, one of the reasons put forward is absentee dads, but absentee dads could be a result of matriarchy. But all that is irrelevant, what we do know is that most African American households are single parents of which the woman is the head.

This has a deleterious effect on the male and the female children but mostly the male. The male child seeing his mother as the head of the household sees that as normal but his natural instincts of manhood tortures him. He knows that there is something that manliness is but being subjected to a woman in all aspects of his life militates against this. As a result he goes into gangs to find male camaraderie. This results in many other negative things. In addition since school, work and responsibilities seem to be of the domain of women, the male seems to try to seek out his manhood in non woman domain of which the only positives are athletics and music.

More can be added but the above is simply a glimpse. Rich can deal more thoroughly with the subject. But the reality is that Matriarchy is against Biblical principles and it is against Western Civilization. And any family that inculcates such whether wittingly or unwittingly will suffer judgment of God. Today it is getting even worse since we are not only inculcating Matriarchy but we are inculcating two mommy's and two daddy's households.


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## BJClark (Jan 21, 2008)

Slippery;

I would agree with what you've said above, and to add to that even in relation to the education system today. Teaching, for whatever reason is mostly a female dominated field, so even in the positions of Principal and Vice Principal, there are more women in those roles now than men..

Something I have witnessed first hand concerning my son is that many of these women have an attitude that is against most males, unless those males are more effeminate, those that aren't, they try and tear down and destroy their masculinity, as if it is a crime to be masculine, (unless of course your female, then it's okay to be masculine, and the moreso the better).

My son who is very masculine, has had maybe 4 women teachers who have not tried to destroy his masculinity..and he excelled in all of those classes, and he rebels against the others..so what do they do the next year? They put him in a class with a teacher who hates masculine men even more than they did, trying to break him. The only reason he had the four other teachers to begin with was because they switched classes and those were the only teachers he could have for those subjects in that grade.

I know many women who are looking for outlets for their son's, so they have that positive masculine male role model, but even those more masculine men that volunteer to be coaches, are only volunteering on the little kid leagues, and not the fifth, sixth, seventh graders and above, when these boys don't make the jr high or high school sports teams, they still need an outlet, so if they don't make the team at school, they have no other place to go..so they head to the streets trying to make a name for themselves there, and since they are critized at school for being masculine, they rebel there too. 

And for whatever reason, the dad's are not stepping up to the plate to volunteer at those age levels...and they too start getting angry at their son's for trying to figure out where they belong in society today.

So other than prayer and fasting, what will get these men to realize, they need to step up and be MEN, and know there is NOTHING wrong with it????

How do we train our men? 

How can I, as a mother help my son in this area, when he feels the entire world is against HIM being a boy??? The sad thing is, he actually made a comment to this the other night, so even at 13 he notices it..and even when my husband tries to encourage him, he rejects it, because "he's not his dad". And his dad is not around, and even if he were, he was never into sports, like my son is and wants to be..


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 21, 2008)

Bobbi sorry to hear. I fully understand what you are going through and I am afraid of what the culture of our country next 20 years is going to be like. I am at a lost as to what to do, but God has been gracious is letting me see the light and providing me with one son to be a godly father to.

The best thing we can do at this point is pray and ask God to provide us with wisdom to mitigate these effects.


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## Carolyn (Jan 21, 2008)

I tried to Google to find out what the male to female ratio is for graduate education and was unsuccessful. Does anyone have statistics for medical school, law school, MBA, programs, etc.? Also, what are the figures for the service academies? 

There are certainly ways males can provide well for their families without a university degree. However, I think where we'll see a lot of the "matriarchy" effect is in public policy areas if the legal, business, medical, military, and church leadership is heavily female. Typically leadership at that level requires university degrees and beyond.

(I found it interesting that most of my hits were pages discussing how to get more women into the science and technical fields at the graduate level.)


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 21, 2008)

Slippery said:


> Bobbi sorry to hear. I fully understand what you are going through and I am afraid of what the culture of our country next 20 years is going to be like. I am at a lost as to what to do, but God has been gracious is letting me see the light and providing me with one son to be a godly father to.
> 
> The best thing we can do at this point is pray and ask God to provide us with wisdom to mitigate these effects.



After reading this thread, I have a great desire to study R.J. Rushdoony's book _Revolt Against Maturity_.


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## SemperEruditio (Jan 27, 2008)

Allow me to expand on a trend in the thread which seems to be that women are not going into the sciences. Now I cannot comment on all the fields except medicine and research. Having been about to apply to medical school before seminary I can say the ratio of women to men is increasing in favor of women. You can find it here: AAMC: FACTS Table 7: Applicants, First-Time Applicants, Acceptees, and Matriculants to U.S. Medical Schools

You can see that female matriculants started in 1996 at 42.7% with an increase to 48.3% last year. There was a peak of 49.6% in 2003. Now with a 97% graduation rate at medical schools doesn't seem to matter who graduates. A lot of the increase is coming from middle-aged women either coming back into the workforce or switching careers. I also work at a research center where the women to men has been steadily increasing in the 12 years I have been there. Where once it was strange to find a female department head, now half of the dh's are women. 

Especially in my liberal and downright crazy seminary we have an inordinate amount of women. So much so that the Dean addressed the entire class urging the men to encourage more men to attend.  The words constantly echoed by the professors and students are that God will "anoint" anyone and since men are not standing up obviously God is calling women. 

The issue I have and raise constantly, since the Bible doesn't seem to be the ultimate authority, is what message are we giving to children when the spiritual head in the family is the mom? "They" insist that the children are smart enough to understand the difference between church and home... How is that possible? If the father tells the kids that they have to go speak to the pastor on a matter....then the kid turns to mom and asks her for the answer since momma is the pastor....??

I guess that is off topic. However since I attend a historically black university I see first hand the matriarchy within the black nuclear family in the Virginia area. So unfortunately this problem is not limited to single mother households. Tolerance is replacing truth and permissiveness is masking as love.


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## kvanlaan (Jan 27, 2008)

I just can't believe what I'm reading - I guess in some ways I grew up in the Netherlands in the 1940's (had immigrant parents that mostly stuck to the old ways and I also spent a lot of time with my grandparents) BUT I still can't understand why men have just given up the ghost and abandoned their ordained positions. 

Yes, society teaches us this, that, and the other BUT it is up to the listeners to decide whether or not to give in and internalize this teaching. Where did the backbone go?

I must admit that here abroad, it is much easier to get away from this sort of thing. We now live in a society that is still rather male-dominated, and we don't have a TV, so we miss a lot of the 'progressive' social commentary. 

I can see from this thread _what_ happened. But the _why_ of it I still don't understand - how was the natural desire to lead, to grow, to succeed, stripped from him? Men today seem like nothing more than neutered shadows of the men I grew up admiring.

I know that most of it is the siren song of society which is fully acceptable to non-believers. But what of mainstream evangelicalism? Does it truly just come down to liberalism in the church leading to a watering down of _every_ message coming from the pulpit (or influencing to such a great degree what is considered acceptable to come from the pulpit)?


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## DMcFadden (Jan 27, 2008)

> But what of mainstream evangelicalism? Does it truly just come down to liberalism in the church leading to a watering down of every message coming from the pulpit (or influencing to such a great degree what is considered acceptable to come from the pulpit)?



Kevin, 

The evangelical church has the oddest fascination with baptizing current societal fads and treating them not only as "normal" but normative. Grudem has done an excellent job showing that evangelical feminism is a new path to liberalism in a book oddly of the same title. In it, he shows that there are "evangelical" seminaries such as my alma mater (Fuller) that contribute to this trend.



> Though Fuller began as a conservative evangelical seminary, it removed the doctrine of biblical inerrancy from its statement of faith in 1971, and today there is significant influence from theological liberalism among its faculty. In addition, full-fledged advocacy of the ordination of women reigns on campus, and I doubt that Fuller would hire as a professor anyone holding another position (or if someone were hired, I doubt that he would be allowed to express his opposition to women’s ordination publicly).
> 
> As long ago as 1987, the egalitarian viewpoint was so firmly entrenched at Fuller that even a responsible academic statement of a complementarian view was effectively silenced by a barrage of protests.



Grudem proceeds to recount a tale of a complementarian adjunct prof (Bill Mounce of the Greek text fame) who experienced the following:



> What reminded me to write this letter was the class on the Pastorals that I am teaching at Fuller. . . . Boy did I get in trouble. One lady walked out, incredibly irate. The Women’s Concerns Committee sent a letter to all my students, claiming that I should never have been allowed to teach this and that they would try to censor any further teaching along traditional lines of interpretation. So much for academic freedom and inquiry. I wrote to the dean and will be interested to see how the actual administration will react. I find it incredibly interesting, and inconsistent, that they allow the teaching of universalism . . . but our view of the women’s passage must be banned . . . For two and a half weeks I was slandered up and down campus. I was the major subject on the declaration board, etc. It was a real mess. . . . The vast majority of the letters were from students who were not in the class. . . . 2 1/2 weeks after the fact . . . [the dean] finally called and we had dinner together. . . . He asked if I would be willing to retell the class what my actual intention was, and without groveling or backtracking, say that to whatever extent I was responsible for the misunderstanding, I apologize. . . . So I agreed and it went very well. . . . The next day [the dean] was deluged with letters and visits from my students who were very upset at the committee and his handling of the situation. . . . [the dean] never apologized, said that he or the school had behaved improperly, or that anything was mishandled except that I was allowed to teach what I thought. He accused me of such dastardly deeds as presenting my personal views with more force than the other views. . . . People need to be aware of what will happen at their schools if this situation is not dealt with properly


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## Wannabee (Jan 27, 2008)

One of our elders just had a daughter graduate from TMC with a Home Ec degree. This was seen as preparing her for marriage.

What we see happening is the curse being lived out in modern society. Men avoid responsibility. Women usurp responsibility. We all see it, and we've all been guilty of it to some degree. The only way to overcome it is to teach a biblical perspective on headship and embrace a multi-generational patriarchal perspective on the family. Our families are divided and our children see themselves as independent when they're legally adults. It's an abomination. 

We've raised our sons to be godly husbands and fathers first. The older one we pushed on the education and it's caused a bit of a backlash. He's still focused on being a godly husband, but his ideas have been massaged by the secular education. The second one is still in progress and seems to have things in perspective.

Very few kids can handle the indoctrination that happens in modern day universities. Who here would actually be willing to sacrifice their children's spiritual welfare on the altar of education and affluence? We don't need to overcome this statistic so much with men pursuing educations, but with training men to be men and women to embrace the glorious position God has ordained for them. Matriarchy is alive and well throughout the country and in an overwhelming number of churches (just about every church I've been to, on one level or another). If it's not overtly then it's covertly through manipulative relationships that undermine the husband's authority while making him "feel" like he's leading. In othe words, it seems like a large number of the men who wear the pants in the family only do so because the wife lays them out for them each morning.


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## SRoper (Jan 28, 2008)

Kevin, most people don't believe that Scripture defines gender roles. Even many who call themselves complementarian minimize what Scripture teaches -- they say only men can be elders and a husband is head of his wife, but other than that anything goes. To them it's fine if a women speaks from the pulpit as long as we don't call it preaching. It's fine if a man wants to stay at home with the kids while he has his wife work. Those who have abandoned the traditional roles believe the conservatives are just trying to impose their preferences on others.


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## Zenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Wannabee,

I agree that it's very difficult to avoid the indoctrination of the secular worldview in their educational setting. I think the only reason I dodged that bullet is that I didn't; I was indoctrinated and then later converted mid-way through my trip through undergrad.

Without God's hand in my life I would be lost in more ways than one. I think that's it's important to train our kids to be nothing less than apologists, among other things. Without a firm grounding in the faith, logic, and worldview, I don't think our children will be able to cope with the devious tactics of those seeking to destroy their faith and be able to respond in a meaningful manner. After study, I have now been able to discern other's positions and what sort of presuppositions they are sneaking in the back-door when they say something. This is impossible to do without understanding what to look for, or what certain words or phrases mean and what is required to consistently hold those positions. If nothing else, it gives one a bit of confidence in their faith; to see the absolute logical consistency of Christianity, in contrast to the failure at every level of secular humanism.


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## Wannabee (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks Andrew. Me too. I was a mess; but now I'm a mess in progress of being cleaned up. As I speak with kids (from mid-twenties down) I find that very, very few of them can defend their faith adequately. Even with the training I've given my sons I am challenged often as they say things and think in manners they got from the world. I am baffled at how it slips through. So, when do you thrust them out into the weeds? To toss them to the wolves when they graduate from high school is, more often than not, to sacrifice them to Babylonian captivity. Many never return...


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 29, 2008)

Maybe the Reformed should create communities like the Anabaptists 

(okay, I await for Tom to come and inform everyone why this absolutely wouldn't work  It was a joke, Tom, a joke! I'm kidding!)


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## Zenas (Jan 29, 2008)

I have oft suggested that we need to collectively buy an Island and name it New Geneva.

Of course, we'd have to have a Baptist side and a Presbyterian side.


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## Wannabee (Jan 29, 2008)

Zenas said:


> I have oft suggested that we need to collectively buy an Island and name it New Geneva.
> 
> Of course, we'd have to have a Baptist side and a Presbyterian side.


With a small strip in the middle, bordered by fences, for all the fence sitters. It could be the EVFree zone. The Baptists should get the southern half though...


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## kvanlaan (Jan 29, 2008)

Scott, I think I've been away too long. I can understand when the world takes this view, that's not surprising. But those who call themselves part of the visible church of Jesus Christ? Kinda blows my mind. I don't know how you can read a bible and not get some definite gender role definitions out of it, but maybe it's just me.


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## Zenas (Jan 29, 2008)

Those who adhere to God's mandate for gender-roles are in the minority here in America.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 29, 2008)

I understand what alot of you are saying here. But with me I have no desire to be married at this point in my life. I've never had a relationship with a female. I've been prodded by so many and its utterly anoying. Yet I see with them nothing but anger towards their wives. I dont want that. Ive been raised by my grandma and mom. They are very much apart of my life. But frankly thats enough female in my life I dont think I could stand having another in my life outside of casual friendships. I know for a fact I'm too immature or selfish? for a serious relationship-but as time moves on my desire to be in a serious relationship withers away. Id rather be on my own.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 30, 2008)

Bladestunner316 said:


> I understand what alot of you are saying here. But with me I have no desire to be married at this point in my life. I've never had a relationship with a female. I've been prodded by so many and its utterly anoying. Yet I see with them nothing but anger towards their wives. I dont want that. Ive been raised by my grandma and mom. They are very much apart of my life. But frankly thats enough female in my life I dont think I could stand having another in my life outside of casual friendships. I know for a fact I'm too immature or selfish? for a serious relationship-but as time moves on my desire to be in a serious relationship withers away. Id rather be on my own.


I have to say, it is refreshing to hear this kind of honesty and not have someone jumping into marriage for all the wrong reasons.


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## Wannabee (Jan 30, 2008)

LadyFlynt said:


> Bladestunner316 said:
> 
> 
> > I understand what alot of you are saying here. But with me I have no desire to be married at this point in my life. I've never had a relationship with a female. I've been prodded by so many and its utterly anoying. Yet I see with them nothing but anger towards their wives. I dont want that. Ive been raised by my grandma and mom. They are very much apart of my life. But frankly thats enough female in my life I dont think I could stand having another in my life outside of casual friendships. I know for a fact I'm too immature or selfish? for a serious relationship-but as time moves on my desire to be in a serious relationship withers away. Id rather be on my own.
> ...



Well said! Too many churches are pushing youngsters to marry when they really don't want to. Then they "feel" guilty because others tell them they "need" to get married. God will provide the maturity and bride. Rest in and trust Him.


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## SRoper (Jan 30, 2008)

Kevin, I share your amazement but no longer share your surprise. You may be interested in the thread Woman as Primary Bread Winner?


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2008)

Much of it is along similar lines of something Rich said in another thread...boys are stripped of boyhood/manhood early on.

How many men in this country are raised by single mothers (single by intent in many cases...not by widowhood or the husband leaving, but because they simply think they can do it better without a man)? How about a feminised school system and one that punishes anyone that holds the concept of gender roles (from physical slaps by teachers, to forced 'counseling', to withholding of diplomas). Avoidance of issues instead of dealing with issues (yeah, we'll just forbid handholding instead of actually dealing with the real sexual offenders). The height and popularity of the metrosexual "gentleman" (thankfully polls now show that women want REAL men...beards, flannel shirts, rifles, and all). The restrictions on society. If your kid is allowed out of your sight or makes any mistake or has any kind of accident, someone will call CPS on you...thus enters enforced helicopter parenthood.

Good luck, society.


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## JBaldwin (Jan 31, 2008)

I have come to this thread a bit late, and most of what is on my mind has already been said. 

Ultimately, it is sin that has brought us to the point where we are. As I read through this, I could not help thinking about my own experience as a single woman in the 80s and early 90s. I went to college expecting to get a degree that would help me should I not get married. What I found in the working world for a women at that time was that a college degree was no good unless you had chosen a profession which brought in a high salary. The salaries for traditional "women's jobs" for women holding college degrees (secretary, bank teller, day care worker) were so low, a woman could not support herself on them. 

I remember going to a job interview one day. This job required a college degree. When we got down to discussing salaries, and I was told the salary, I looked at the man who was interviewing me, and I said, "How do you expect someone to live off this salary?" His reply to me was that a woman shouldn't be working, and if she was, she would be married so it was a second income salary. In that particular case, I finally ended up taking one of the lower paying salaries and took on some piano students to make up the difference in my income. This kind of response to a single woman going to work in the 80s and early 90s was typical. My single Christian women friends (who did not hold professional degress) were forced to share apartments, drive cars that were falling apart and go with out medical insurance, if they wanted to survive financially. None of these women were flashy dressers or spent money on frivolities. None of these women were purposely staying single, they simply had not met anyone to marry at this point. A lot of these women eventually married, but also went back to school to get professional degrees so they could support themselves should anything happen to their husbands. 

When I look at the combination of the impact of feminism on society, the growing irresponsibility of young men, the way society encourages young men to have fun and not work, the growth of divorce, and the fear of young women of being "stuck" supporting themselves on a "second income" salary, I'm not a bit surprised that women pursue college degrees.


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## Pergamum (Jan 31, 2008)

This is no surprise...girls have always been better at school. Now, as our society shifts from a stake-out-the-frontier to a sit-behind-a-desk society, women will excel. 

Women should do as well as they can. I am not sure that it is evidence of a declining society if more women than males graduate college. They are better suited to academic environments.


The only trouble is, our society does not expect that they will be the primary caretakers of the children and take all that patience and ability to deal in indoor environments where nurturing skills, patience and feminine traits make one excell and apply it to our next generation.


P.S. the decapitation of the African American family was due to ill formed welfare policies that empowered jobless fertile women but did not empower fathers. 


Where does Mohler say matriachy is coming from? I don;t usually here about the global threat of matriarchy. It appears that most dictators and tyrannical regimes were all fairly patriarchical. The rising threat of matriarchy is hard to take serious.


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## Pergamum (Jan 31, 2008)

I am starting to appreciate a little dose of light feminism after living in cultures were women are treated like property, married at 11, paid for with livestock and beaten for minor offenses. This creeping "threat of matriarchy" is a welcome change from clubbing your woman and dragging her back to the cave to rape her.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 31, 2008)

ladyflint,
I would say my mother did so by choice through the help of both her parents. This was the wise choice as my father has 'issues' some which affect me biologically, others spiritually. But it was the wise choice. Albeit my grandparents were pentecostal-lite I was raised in a christian home where I was shown to read the bible,believe it, and pray to Christ. Which I'm so thankful for.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2008)

Bladestunner, I'm refering more to the women that just didn't want to work at their marriage or have gone out and intentionally gotten pregnant with some man just so they can have a baby. We are seeing more and more of this kind of single mommyhood. You were also blessed with a grandfather that had an active role in your life. Many young men do not have that.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 31, 2008)

I understood that you were not jabbing at me.  Yes I just wish the Lord did not take him home in 1988. But that is life.


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## Pergamum (Jan 31, 2008)

Ladyflynt: 

Women really like beards and flannel shirts? Who have you been interviewing?


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## Zenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah, I don't own a flannel shirt, nor can I grow a beard, but I would if I could.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2008)

LOL! There was an article about 2yrs back about it. Created a stir.

As for me...my rule was taller and older. As for my hubby...he has a beard, a bald head (most of the time...bald by choice ) and flannel shirts is his thing. A "suit" to him is black jeans or dress pants (under wifely pressure) and a nice button down shirt. I finally gave away his ties. Let alone, he doesn't understand wasting $300 for a suit when he works in a cabinet shop.


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## Wannabee (Jan 31, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I am starting to appreciate a little dose of light feminism after living in cultures were women are treated like property, married at 11, paid for with livestock and beaten for minor offenses. This creeping "threat of matriarchy" is a welcome change from clubbing your woman and dragging her back to the cave to rape her.



This needs to be rethought. I don't know that anyone caught it, but it shows a sort of "either/or" mentality that is foreign to a biblical understanding of male/female roles. Both choices above are abominations. There's nothing about feminism that is superior to chauvinism, regardless of the degree. Both are horribly sinful.

Christianity brings dignity to the woman's role in both the home and society. This is not because of anything we do or have achieved, but because it is God's design. Both genders are created in the image of God and therefore inherit a certain dignity as image bearers. But, just as our worth is not based on color or gender, neither is it determined by our roles. A woman who bucks against her God given role is just as much an abomination as a man who abuses his. And the same can be said for the man who fails to embrace the responsibility God has given him. 

Personally, I can find nothing more beautiful, encouraging or glorious on this earth than a woman who fully embraces the wonderful position God has given her and blooms there. Such precious submission to God makes even a plain woman shine with a brilliance that causes wonder and brings great honor to both her husband and God almighty. May more women seize this precious treasure, becoming great treasures in their homes, churches and communities.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2008)

We were explaining this to our children the other week. What the strong role of men in society was and ways that it plays out (under God's standards). And the strong role of women society as God created their role. Society does need both...but in their proper role. Both being equally important...but important to be properly placed. Patriarchy does not mean women are not vital...they are VERY vital. Women are also communicators and the ones that pass on from one generation of women to the next what they need and need to know. With women trying to ursurp men's roles (the kind that do it out of desire, not necessity) and rejecting motherhood in manner it was created to be, leave the next generation with little to go on. Do you know how much backpeddling and figuring things out on my own simply because my mother worked, couldn't cook, etc? I even had to have a neighbour teach me to boil water. My daughters will have it easier than I. At the same time, we need to be careful that there isn't an inbalance where the idea of men's roles negate any female. Instead they are supposed to revere them in their roles and encourage them just as a wife if to encourage her husband in his.


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## JBaldwin (Jan 31, 2008)

LadyFlynt said:


> We were explaining this to our children the other week. What the strong role of men in society was and ways that it plays out (under God's standards). And the strong role of women society as God created their role. Society does need both...but in their proper role. Both being equally important...but important to be properly placed. Patriarchy does not mean women are not vital...they are VERY vital. Women are also communicators and the ones that pass on from one generation of women to the next what they need and need to know. With women trying to ursurp men's roles (the kind that do it out of desire, not necessity) and rejecting motherhood in manner it was created to be, leave the next generation with little to go on. Do you know how much backpeddling and figuring things out on my own simply because my mother worked, couldn't cook, etc? I even had to have a neighbour teach me to boil water. My daughters will have it easier than I.



Wow! LadyFlynt, I can't imagine my mother not teaching me these things. We were taking turns cooking dinner for the family by the time I was 12 years old. My mother is/was an amazing woman. She managed to teach all of us (girls, had not boys) to cook, clean, sew and manage a household. I am doing the same for my daughters. She also taught us the importance of being able to support ourselves if and when it was necessary, but that family comes first. My mother also had a profession, but kept it to a few hours a week while we were home, so that she could be there for us. She, along with my father of course, made sure we had a Christian education. I am thankful for that upbringing.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2008)

You were very blessed, J.


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## SRoper (Jan 31, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Ladyflynt:
> 
> Women really like beards and flannel shirts? Who have you been interviewing?



Yeah they like beards. Don't know about flannel shirts, though.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 31, 2008)

SRoper said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Ladyflynt:
> ...



Some like them if they are kept trimmed up. I think the results will be different with the RL Dabney/ZZ Top style beard. Well, that's what my wife says anyway.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 31, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> This is no surprise...girls have always been better at school. Now, as our society shifts from a stake-out-the-frontier to a sit-behind-a-desk society, women will excel.
> 
> Women should do as well as they can. I am not sure that it is evidence of a declining society if more women than males graduate college. They are better suited to academic environments.



Based on what? 



> The only trouble is, our society does not expect that they will be the primary caretakers of the children and take all that patience and ability to deal in indoor environments where nurturing skills, patience and feminine traits make one excell and apply it to our next generation.
> 
> 
> P.S. the decapitation of the African American family was due to ill formed welfare policies that empowered jobless fertile women but did not empower fathers.
> ...



With posts like this sometimes it is hard to take you serious.  

But seriously I think this is more of a problem in the West. (As you note, things are to the opposite extreme in many parts of the world.) To boil it down Mohler basically says it is due to rejection of the Bible. He doesn't blame women so much as he blames men. Nature abhors a vacuum, etc. We are now faced with a situation where men are increasingly either beasts or wimps.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 31, 2008)

Abortion on demand and no fault divorce were sold on the basis that they would help and liberate women but on balance the opposite has happened. These have been two more avenues by which men have been able to shirk their responsibility.


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## Wannabee (Jan 31, 2008)

SRoper said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Ladyflynt:
> ...


My wife does. In fact, I'm wearing both right now, plus flannel lined blue jeans. And if I smell like camp fire.... watch out.... grrrrrrr....


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 31, 2008)

OT: Im happy to see you here Joe


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## Pergamum (Jan 31, 2008)

I post many things to counter PB Group-think.

Here is what I often see happening in Christian circles: An article comes along knocking something and then this thing becomes the new public enemy number one. Hary Potter, the Passion of the Christ, etc.... one's orthodoxy then becomes how violently we throw rocks at the infidel.

It is often Group-Think, plain and simple.

Among Christian cirlces, every week a new cause for the decline of the West pops up, evolution, feminism, no prayer in school, the Gubbermint, Aspartame, women preachers, etc and many folks then collectivley form a lynch mob and decry this great evil.


I want to again challenge that matriachalism is the cause for the decline of Western civilization. It is a tertiary symptom at the most.


A lot of women graduating college is certainly not a sign that we are doomed. In fact, I think it is a sign that we are an open and free society - and these are GOOD things for which I praise God.

Again, most of the evil regimes of the world are patriarchal. The biggest threats to the world are male led threats. Men wreck the world much more efficiently than women do.

Feminism is a slight nuisance, but even feminism has some good points about it and Christian teachings on women provided the impetus for many of the early "feminists".

This issue is definitely more of a problem in the West. In many countries, I would applaud some victories for feminists.


Matriarchalism is not the New Red Menace. The problem lies deeper.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 1, 2008)

> polls now show that women want REAL men...beards, flannel shirts, rifles, and all



Amen. 

I've got the beard, rifle, and basically cycle through a collection of wool shirts in winter. My wife likes to trim my beard once a week to keep it managable but would wonder who I was if I ever shaved it off. 

Namby-pamby nancy boys do seem to be on the decline for the most part. I could never wrap my head around why the 'metrosexual' look ever gained any ground; it's just not normal. A bit queer, actually.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 1, 2008)

Pergy, while I don't think it is the rise of the New Red Menace (though I do like that phrase), and agree it is a symptom of something deeper, I don't see a good angle to it. I don't know that there is such a thing as a good angle when a secular solution is applied to a spiritual problem.

I see the violent redneck patriarchal dictators as the devil in a red bodysuit with a goatee, trident, and a bifurcated tail.

The rise of the matriarchy is a 'progressive' devil in a business suit who uses genteel lingo, is well mannered, and is just making the best of a bad situation.

The first devil jolts you and you see it for what it is while the second soothes you into complacency as you die.

As for throwing rocks at the infidel, it is more an issue of _why_ you are throwing them. If it is group think, then you are indeed off-target. But if it is because you have a conviction that these things are wrong, then by all means warn your brothers.


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## Pergamum (Feb 1, 2008)

Wow...that was quite the picture-esque post KVANLANN! 

I am picturing a beer-swilling hillbilly in red leotards and horns now! 

.....It's going to haunt my dreams!!!!


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## kvanlaan (Feb 1, 2008)

No, you're not (at least your pictures suggest nothing of the sort). I was trying to counter your portrayal of the wicked patriarchal tin pot dictator and the not-so-bad feminist theorist and leader. I just don't see it this way.

So please don't take that as my pointing a finger at _you_. I am simply saying that this is a _subtle_ move of wickedness on the earth by the Prince of the air, it is just not a blatant and in-your-face issue like the aforementioned patriarchal dictator. I do not agree with your assessment of the situation, I see it as more sinister.

As for you yourself, you haven't shaved your beard down to a goatee and grown a tail, have you?


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## kvanlaan (Feb 1, 2008)

Beer swilling I can handle.

Hillbilly I can handle.

But if you're wearing red leotards with any sort of regularity, I'm going to an administrator, and I mean fast.


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## Pergamum (Feb 1, 2008)

Nope....I'm only a hillbilly.... no leotards, no goatee, and sweet tea is about as strong as I go....


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## Wannabee (Feb 1, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I want to again challenge that matriachalism is the cause for the decline of Western civilization. It is a tertiary symptom at the most.
> 
> A lot of women graduating college is certainly not a sign that we are doomed. In fact, I think it is a sign that we are an open and free society - and these are GOOD things for which I praise God.


These are good comments. Matriarchy is a symptom and a judgment, not a cause.



> Again, most of the evil regimes of the world are patriarchal. The biggest threats to the world are male led threats. Men wreck the world much more efficiently than women do.


Remember this in four years if your favorite female democrat candidate becomes president of the western empire. 



> Feminism is a slight nuisance, but even feminism has some good points about it and Christian teachings on women provided the impetus for many of the early "feminists".
> 
> This issue is definitely more of a problem in the West. In many countries, I would applaud some victories for feminists.


Again, there is a problem with this line of thought. The term "feminist" needs clarification. Perhaps reading the wiki definition will help narrow down exactly what aspect of feminism you are speaking of here. After looking over all of them listed here I can't find one I would consider "positive" (though there are some positive aspects/fallout).

Let's consider women's right to vote. Is this positive or negative. On the surface, it's neutral. Some, from a seculary perspective, would call it positive. And, if women are submissive to their husbands then they can support their husbands with their votes. This is good. However, if they are not then the wife has the ability to completely obliterate her husband's voice. This makes her vote an abomination because she has risen up and neutralized her husband. 

Again, this is a symptom, not a cause. When men fail to assume their responsibility they leave a void that women sense they must fill. Even more, they desire to assume the role of men even when men rise up in obedience to God. We must keep in mind that this is judgment, not virtue. A woman who assumes the God given/delegated role of a man is not virtuous. She is willful and dishonoring God.

Feminism is more than the pursuit of women's equality with man. It is the usurping of man's role in society as prescribed by God. It is a rebellion against gender defined roles, which God has assigned according to His good will and pleasure. It adulterates the beauty of the relationship between a man and a woman, a relationship that mirrors the glorious union of Christ and His church. Shall the church rise up and claim rights that are Christ's only? Shall Jesus rise up and assert His will in opposition to the Father. Shall man rise up and assert his will against his Creator. These are all inherent in God's design, just as the woman's role in the home and society is glorious within the confines of what God has established. If all she does truly honors her husband then she is honoring God. If she does anything to dishonor her husband and show any amount of disrespet to him then she has rebelled against God and, without repentance, judgment must follow.

Feminism flies in the face of this and asserts the woman's position in society as not only equal to man's in every way, but the same as man's in every way. Her voice is considered as equal in every aspect to her husbands. A daugher's voice is considered equal in every aspect with her father's. The model of headship that God has prescribed becomes denigrated and lost in the pursuit of worldly virtues. This is an abomination and a curse upon our society.



> Matriarchalism is not the New Red Menace. The problem lies deeper.


Matriarchalism (is that really a word? I like it!) is a symptom and a confirmation of God's judgment on a people. And it's not alone. It's joined by a host of rebellions against God including children rising up against parents, homosexuality, other sexual perversion, laziness, etc. Romans 1 is reflected in this clearly.


> *Romans 1*
> 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
> 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
> 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
> 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but *also approve of those who practice them.*


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2008)

Have any of you heard of this program or the book they offer?

Hold On to Your N.U.T.s™ offers men what they need most: the truth…about themselves, their relationships, their responsibilities as men, and the power they have to be BetterMen® for themselves, their families, and in their communities.

BetterMen®


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## Wannabee (Feb 1, 2008)

BJClark said:


> Have any of you heard of this program or the book they offer?
> 
> Hold On to Your N.U.T.s™ offers men what they need most: the truth…about themselves, their relationships, their responsibilities as men, and the power they have to be BetterMen® for themselves, their families, and in their communities.
> 
> BetterMen®


I did a search of the web site for the name "Jesus" and didn't find anything. From what I can see it's another self-help program. It might have some good info, but I'm a bit wary of it.


 


Bladestunner316 said:


> OT: Im happy to see you here Joe


Thaks Blade. And contrats on the debt.


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## SRoper (Feb 1, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> Abortion on demand and no fault divorce were sold on the basis that they would help and liberate women but on balance the opposite has happened. These have been two more avenues by which men have been able to shirk their responsibility.



I would add the routine use of contraception to these two.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I post many things to counter PB Group-think.
> 
> Here is what I often see happening in Christian circles: An article comes along knocking something and then this thing becomes the new public enemy number one. Hary Potter, the Passion of the Christ, etc.... one's orthodoxy then becomes how violently we throw rocks at the infidel.
> 
> ...



Who said it was _the_ primary cause? Mohler certainly doesn't say that. It is a symptom. I attended two messages given by Mohler on manhood last week. He didn't blame women, he blamed men for this predicament and said that much of matriarchy is due to men shirking and avoiding their responsibilities and, nature abhorring a vacuum, women naturally take on those roles. I posted this earlier but perhaps in your haste to "post things to counter PB Group-think" you apparently did not read it.  

I agree that some of what could be called feminism is commendable (i.e. overcoming the abuses you cite, women not being treated as property, etc.) but that's not what Mohler and others are decrying. And they are not representatives of the heavy handed so called patriarchy that some are pushing today. 

Group-think can indeed be a problem, but there is no virtue in knee jerk contrarianism either.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 1, 2008)

Thank you Joe!!


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