# Episcopal church: 1) 'heresy' of "individualistic" salvation; 2) NT Wright article



## beej6

My reaction to the first item was anger and sorrow... am I justified? Ms. Schori 
sounds like she is attacking (some?) evangelical churches and her believers:

Associated Baptist Press - Episcopal presiding bishop terms individualistic salvation 'heresy'

The second item is not related but I found to be refreshing if basic. NT 'Tom' Wright writes about the (US) Episcopal church's leaving the communion:

The Americans know this will end in schism | Tom Wright - Times Online


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## Philip

"Archbishop" Schori is a heretic plain and simple (besides the point that her "ordination" is invalid).

As for the second article, I have to say, right on, Bishop Wright! It's your stand on these kinds of issues that shows us to be brothers in Christ despite our theological differences.


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## gkterry

Looking back now, it was rather clear that when she was "elected" as Presiding Bishop, it was for this issue. At the time, she was a dark horse candidate that was little known. The liberal, apostate faction of TEC shoved her to prominence. 



I am greatly saddened by all this, though not surprised.

It is also good to see that Bishop Wright has the proper convictions on this subject. Bishop Wright has always been one to which the more evangelical Anglicans can look (even despite his New Perspective on Paul theology).


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## beej6

I am certainly in agreement with both of you.


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## DMcFadden

All seven mainline denoms are facing the same issues. They simply describe it and process it through their diverse polity structures. 

Any experts out there want to venture a prediction on what the next 5 years will bring in the Episcopal Church US???

It does amuse me that someone who spends so much of her professional time denying that the term "heresy" has currency in our pluralistic and diverse marketplace of ideas should trot it out when she wants to bash conservatives.


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## TimV

> It does amuse me that someone who spends so much of her professional time denying that the term "heresy" has currency in our pluralistic and diverse marketplace of ideas should trot it out when she wants to bash conservatives.



And it amuses me that someone who co-authored the COE's official paper defending woman Bishops gets on his high horse when it comes to homo Bishops.

They all deserve each other.


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## Hawaiian Puritan

DMcFadden said:


> Any experts out there want to venture a prediction on what the next 5 years will bring in the Episcopal Church US???




I think this "church" may face a demise much quicker than it believes, for financial reasons. For example, their latest budget included $4 million for litigation against departing congregations. It also completely eliminated any money for "evangelism" in the denomination:

Father T. Listens to the World: Time to Update My Resume

(That probably is a good thing, from a believers' standpoint.)

Just recently I read that fully 25% of Episcopal parishes have 35 members of less. Fully half have less than 67 members. In my opinion, there's no way you can support a church on a long-term basis on that kind of membership, especially when the membership is heavily aging and there are no young people to replace them. Certainly you are not going to have any responsible parents wanting to have their families go there.

I'm sure they believe that their latest moves to promote homosexual clergy, authorize same-sex marriage ceremonies and oppose traditional marriage are going to bring yet more wealthy homosexuals into the denomination, and in line with their "gospel of inclusion," that is going to be their salvation. But I doubt it. 

With the present national economic situation and the demographics listed above, I think you are probably going to see numerous parishes starting to shut their doors in the near future.


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## gkterry

If it wasn't already bad enough, it has gotten worse - officially sanctioning "same sex unions":

Episcopal Church moves toward blessing gay unions - Yahoo! News

My wife and I have been discussing this a bit and we are to the point of requesting termination of our membership in TEC. We are unsure where that may lead at this point.


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## Hawaiian Puritan

gkterry said:


> If it wasn't already bad enough, it has gotten worse - officially sanctioning "same sex unions":
> 
> Episcopal Church moves toward blessing gay unions - Yahoo! News
> 
> My wife and I have been discussing this a bit and we are to the point of requesting termination of our membership in TEC. We are unsure where that may lead at this point.




As a former Episcopalian, I sympathize with you. I still follow what is going on quite closely, partly because I see the same spiritual contamination destroying the denomination of which my church is still a part and I need to be aware of what is coming.

If you make up your mind to leave, one suggestion that has been made on the Anglican boards is that people who leave should write a letter to the rector and vestry making it clear why they are going. Otherwise, the churches will just continue to pretend that nothing is going on. A big reason that the Episcopal Church has gotten where it is is that the people in the pews are kept ignorant of what is happening.


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## MW

beej6 said:


> Associated Baptist Press - Episcopal presiding bishop terms individualistic salvation 'heresy'





> She said in order to be faithful, "we need to be continually rediscovering that my needs are not the only significant ones."



Who needs to be continually rediscovering this? That would be the individual. And who is held accountable for the "heresy" of individualistic salvation? That would also be the individual who teaches it. Hence we have the anathematiser of individualistic salvation proving that individualistic salvation is an inescapable element of the Christian religion because she herself invokes the ideas of individual discovery and accountability in order to make "moral" demands on others.


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## kvanlaan

> Just recently I read that fully 25% of Episcopal parishes have 35 members of less. Fully half have less than 67 members.






One other thing: the idea of 'ubuntu' as she lays it out is referenced in Ch. ? v. ? in the bible?


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## Jennie

In my city, I'm aware of two formerly Episcopal churches which have joined with Anglican groups in Rwanda. One of these congregations has 250-300 people.


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## Hawaiian Puritan

kvanlaan said:


> One other thing: the idea of 'ubuntu' as she lays it out is referenced in Ch. ? v. ? in the bible?





Ubuntu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)

Excerpt: "Ubuntu is an ethic or *humanist philosophy* focusing on people's allegiances and relations with each other."


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## kvanlaan

I actually remember studying the concept during postgrad work in Africa - the idea of 'community', etc. and yes, there's no basis in scripture for it.


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## gkterry

> If you make up your mind to leave, one suggestion that has been made on the Anglican boards is that people who leave should write a letter to the rector and vestry making it clear why they are going. Otherwise, the churches will just continue to pretend that nothing is going on. A big reason that the Episcopal Church has gotten where it is is that the people in the pews are kept ignorant of what is happening.



Thanks for the suggestion, I had already made up my mind that was the proper course of action. It really saddens and angers me a great deal how the TEC has been hijacked by those promoting this agenda instead of the Gospel.


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## a mere housewife

armourbearer said:


> beej6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Associated Baptist Press - Episcopal presiding bishop terms individualistic salvation 'heresy'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She said in order to be faithful, "we need to be continually rediscovering that my needs are not the only significant ones."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who needs to be continually rediscovering this? That would be the individual. And who is held accountable for the "heresy" of individualistic salvation? That would also be the individual who teaches it. Hence we have the anathematiser of individualistic salvation proving that individualistic salvation is an inescapable element of the Christian religion because she herself invokes the ideas of individual discovery and accountability in order to make "moral" demands on others.
Click to expand...


Well that utterly confuted her. Someone should let her know.


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