# Can there be any hope when dating an arminian?



## lukebailey

I am dating a very sweet, kind, Christian girl. Unfortunately, she also attends a church that is blatantly heretical. (Global Revolution Church... It's a Revolution)

Normally I would not pursue such a relationship, yet she truly does believe in the innerancy of the Bible and of God's power. She simply has a very narrow understanding.

Her faith is very much built upon the experiential, the spiritual "highs", the awe of those who speak in tongues, etc. I am in constant conflict, as I do not want to rebuke these things openly, because I know for her it would be hard to discern between me attacking her God or simply her theology.

However, I do love her very much as a sister in the faith, however corrupted hers is. I do not want to relinquish the battle for her mind. I suppose my quandry is two-fold. Firstly, is it worthwhile and right for a Calvinist, Reformed 17-year old to be dating someone who, while not knowing what Arminianism is, clings to its teachings? And secondly, if it is something allowable, how would I go about trying to change her doctrines without broaching upon her experiences, which she ties directly to God and her relationship with him?

I hope I put this in the right forum. It can be moved, of course, if neccesary.


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## Ex Nihilo

Luke, I may be wrong about this, but it seems dangerous to me for you to be in a formal romantic relationship with her until she is more grounded in sound theology. If you start teaching her Reformed theology while dating her, and no one in authority over her is doing so, you run the risk of acting as her spiritual head. You may not be ready for the attachment this could create. If you then realize that she isn't going to become Reformed and thus is not the person you want teaching your children, both of you could be seriously hurt. 

Also, I am not prepared to say that all romantic relationships between 17-year-olds are wrong, but when one of those teenagers is not well taught and possibly not well supervised, all the inherent dangers of teenage dating are magnified. That's just my assessment; I hope you'll get others from those who are older and wiser.

A couple of other issues: You aren't being honest with her in your opinion of her beliefs, and I'm not sure how much you can respect and admire her when you think her beliefs are "corrupted" and that her understanding isn't good. If and when she finds out how heretical you think her church is, she's going to be in for some shock, and may feel that you've deceived her.


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## lukebailey

I think thats a valid assessment, actually. 

I am by no means the only Christian in her life, yet the only one that is truly reformed. We are both part of a close-knit group of friends, so there is support there. However, I know I need to be cautious.

I am experienced in teenage dating, and know my limitations. However, previously theology in a relationshop was not much of a concern, as I had not yet developed. I have become more awakened.


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## TaylorOtwell

brother, in my opinion, commitment to the Reformed idea of the "means of grace" are going to be integral to sustaining a healthy marriage. However, "Pastor" Beverly is teaching a class on "flowing in the prophetic" at Global Revolution. I think you are going to have huge problems with pursuing a serious relationship with this young lady, and, although I'm sure it is difficult, I would encourage you not to continue in this.


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## lukebailey

Yea, her church is crazy. Luckily, shes a smart girl, and doesnt listen to all of it. But still. I hear you.

That church is actually an interesting story. The leader actually pastored a methodist church for 15 years... got kicked out cause he wrecked them financially.

He was charismatic to some people I suppose. My gf's parents followed him to his new church. Shes been to my church a few times and likes it... would like to make it more of a habit.

I dont want to give off the impression that I make it a habit to pick up girls simply to convert them to reformed theology. I dont. But this one strikes me as special, as odd as it seems. 

Yet the waters in which I wade are no doubt murky.


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## Repre5entYHWH

Evie about said it all, and i agree. 
upon marriage you WILL need to be the spiritual head and you WILL need to attend the same church. 

if i were you i would talk to her and express your concerns and maybe work through the issues exegetically if she is willing, but you must listen to her opinion and not just blow them off because they don't align with your Calvinistic views (even though you are correct) and who knows both of your beliefs might be refined.


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## lukebailey

Repre5entYHWH said:


> if i were you i would talk to her and express your concerns and maybe work through the issues exegetically if she is willing, but you must listen to her opinion and not just blow them off because they don't align with your Calvinistic views (even though you are correct) and who knows both of your beliefs might be refined.



Could you articulate upon this? I have a notion of listening to her (even compromise in some areas, perhaps...), yet not sure how this would be done. 

We actually had a little blow-up over this recently, as she claimed that I made a disgusted facial expression when she said certain things she believed (it wasnt intentional, I assure you.) Im trying to get better, but could you elaborate on how our beliefs might be refined? Where do i draw the line between rebuking and trying to understand?


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## Hamalas

By all means humbly ask questions about her theology and dig into the Word together....but not in a relationship. Missionary dating is rarely a good idea, and that's exactly what this sounds like. 

From one teenage guy to another.


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## Repre5entYHWH

lukebailey said:


> Could you articulate upon this? I have a notion of listening to her (even compromise in some areas, perhaps...), yet not sure how this would be done.
> 
> We actually had a little blow-up over this recently, as she claimed that I made a disgusted facial expression when she said certain things she believed (it wasnt intentional, I assure you.) Im trying to get better, but could you elaborate on how our beliefs might be refined? Where do i draw the line between rebuking and trying to understand?



if it were me and i were really interested in a pursuit of marriage (because that where all relationships should lead) i would tell her "I have some concerns about your theology and i'm sure you have some concerns with mine... will you be willing to search the scriptures with me and we can discuss our conclusions" 

your beliefs will be refined because you will be forced to look at both sides of the issue instead of what a reformer has to say and your main concern is with the scripture. 

i would start with what you would think to be the important stuff... things that could lead her in a bad path if taken to it's logical conclusion. i would have charity on somethings with her. 

the churches belief statement looks kind of troubling... make sure she is saved. (but not in an accusing way). i don't see the gospel in there.


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## DMcFadden

lukebailey said:


> Yea, her church is crazy. Luckily, shes a smart girl, and doesnt listen to all of it. But still. I hear you.
> 
> That church is actually an interesting story. The leader actually pastored a methodist church for 15 years... got kicked out cause he wrecked them financially.
> 
> *He was charismatic to some people I suppose.* My gf's parents followed him to his new church. Shes been to my church a few times and likes it... would like to make it more of a habit.
> 
> I dont want to give off the impression that I make it a habit to pick up girls simply to convert them to reformed theology. I dont. But this one strikes me as special, as odd as it seems.
> 
> Yet the waters in which I wade are no doubt murky.





> 9. We believe Israel is the prophetic key to the return of Jesus Christ.
> 10. We believe in signs and wonders that confirm that Jesus Christ is Lord.



Ya think?

Optimistically, most times relationships between 17 year olds do not last. However, you cannot count on that. I was 17 and Jeanette 16 when we started dating and we have been married for almost 35 years and are in our mid 50s now!!!

How grounded in THE faith is she? 17 yr. olds are known for not knowing much about what they believe and can be quite pliable, particularly when part of a seemingly successful church.

Congrats for asking these kinds of questions at 17. Follow the answers and advice you receive and they will stand you in good stead in the years to come.


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## lukebailey

How grounded in the faith is she? 

She believes that the word of God is the truth. She knows that emotions cannot be the base of religion, even if that is the major influence for her very often.

She has been poisoned, simply put. But she is faithful- in the only possible way she can be. She has a true desire to know God. It has been misapplied, as she has been taught that her emotions are how she knows God. But again, she is smart- she has grown suspicious of this.

If she did not have respect for the word of God, there would be no point in the pursuit. However, she does- and I think that is more than many could have said at 17. Therefore, I see hope on the horizon.

And as to the "ya think?", he is certainly charismatic in doctrine as well lol. I was reffering to his personality, but I suppose the two go hand in hand. I pity his followers- so many of them are just ignorant. Yet at the same time, I feel like they should have more motivation to actually study the word, especially the ones well into their years.


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## Marrow Man

OK, the discussion has progressed past the title of the OP. I just wanted to offer encouragement in that when we first starting dating, my wife (Scottish Lass) was attending a church that could not properly be called "Calvinistic." It was a PCUSA (I was also PCUSA at the time, but attending a more conservative form of that church), and she had actually been taught that Calvinism was something that Presbyterians used to believe, but not any longer (specifically, the doctrine of predestination). She didn't believe in the doctrine, per se, because it had never actually been taught to her (I the same may be true of many Arminians). Obviously, that changed after studying the Scriptures.

Now, I certainly don't want to give you false hope, only general encouragement. I does provide an opportunity for you to carefully go through Scripture with her and show her what God says about these things.


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## DonP

You might want to consider doing some internet study on the concept of courting. 
Many Christians do not think casual dating esp alone time is wise. 

They meet in groups and see each other at school or work and church functions. 

Then if one thinks another could be a potential spouse and would like to pursue and monogamous courting relationship approved by both sets of parents, then they can have a basis for Bible study and asking the questions you will need to ask her to study. 

Sine God has opened your eyes to the profound truths of PRedestination election etc, #1 you need to be studying for you to grow spiritualy and soundly so you do not get ensnared by the devil. 

And give her books, and tracts to read on these vital subjects. 

If she doesn't get it i would drop the relationship back from courting to casual friends in group settings only. 

If she isn't marriage potential for you, then she may be someone elses wife. Leave her alone and go find the help fit one God has for you. 

She will be or be open to becoming reformed. 

You can continue to give literature to this girl and see if over time she changes. 

But before God ask yourself what is it in her you like , if not her godliness and spirituality? As Evie said, she we be the instructor of you kids and 
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed? 
NKJV


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## OPC'n

I would just stay friends with her until she comes around to the reformed faith. More like a brother/sister relationship. If she comes around you can then go further. If she doesn't, then you have at least shared the Gospel with someone. Nothing would be wasted in this situation. However, you must decide that you are doing it for God's glory and not for your own reasons....that will be your lighthouse.


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## Hamalas

One idea that popped into my head today: maybe you could work your way through the Westminster Confession with her (since your profile lists that as your theological creed, good choice by the way.) There will of course be many areas of disagreement, but it would prompt conversation and give you both a guided means of digging into the Scripture together. It could serve as a wonderful foundation for a future relationship together, or clearly show that God is pushing you both down different paths. Either way, I think it would be helpful to work your way through a specific creed or book rather than just debating haphazardly!


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## Ex Nihilo

Hamalas said:


> One idea that popped into my head today: maybe you could work your way through the Westminster Confession with her (since your profile lists that as your theological creed, good choice by the way.) There will of course be many areas of disagreement, but it would prompt conversation and give you both a guided means of digging into the Scripture together. It could serve as a wonderful foundation for a future relationship together, or clearly show that God is pushing you both down different paths. Either way, I think it would be helpful to work your way through a specific creed or book rather than just debating haphazardly!





I thought about this more, and your situation is indeed complicated. As I implied earlier, if you weren't already dating her, it would be clear to me that you shouldn't date her until she is at least _becoming_ Reformed. Yet at this point, she has been encouraged by your dating status to develop feelings for you, so dropping her on the basis of a factor you knew about when you started dating her would not exactly be _honorable_. If it were at all possible to keep the relationship from progressing further until she is definitely moving towards Reformed theology, that would probably be best. Of course, relationships don't just stay in one place indefinitely... 

The problem, from an honor perspective, is that the permanence of your relationship depends on an entirely uncertain event -- her move toward Reformed theology. At the very least, she should know that this move is essential long-term so she can accurately assess whether she could accept Reformed theology _and_ so she can be cautious with her heart.


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## Timothy William

I would take Evie's last paragraph very seriously; I have often seen, and a couple of times been involved in, relationships which have floundered or ended because one party had stated or unstated expectations of the other which weren't met. It can even become a form of dishonesty, when previously agreed to changes are not met or new requirements are added. Assuming that the other will change their theological beliefs is dangerous, and could tempt them to fake agreement.

All of us who are potentially entering romantic relationships should think and pray about what theological standards we require in a partner. It is not simply a matter of Reformed vs not-Reformed; as these boards often demonstrate, there are often disagreements among Reformed folk, and also, some of us may allow differing degrees of divergence from the Confessions in a partner.

Very few people maintain all the theological beliefs they have as 17 year olds unchanged. Even if you agree with her perfectly now, it is likely that one or both of you will alter your stances on some important issues over time. So, be cautious about forming too close an attachment, but take courage that she may leave behind the nuttier views of her current church as she matures.


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## lukebailey

Hamalas said:


> One idea that popped into my head today: maybe you could work your way through the Westminster Confession with her (since your profile lists that as your theological creed, good choice by the way.) There will of course be many areas of disagreement, but it would prompt conversation and give you both a guided means of digging into the Scripture together. It could serve as a wonderful foundation for a future relationship together, or clearly show that God is pushing you both down different paths. Either way, I think it would be helpful to work your way through a specific creed or book rather than just debating haphazardly!



that thought had actually occured to me... I think its a very good idea. It would allow me to grow as well, as I admit i have not studied every finer point of the longer catachism.


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## Theognome

The question is- will she listen to your teaching in the (future) home and will she submit to your authority in areas where there may be disparity? In my own marriage, before we actually married, Toni shared with me many issues of the reformed faith that I needed to either agree or disagree with. After study, I found myself in agreement in most cases, but there were still some issues where we didn't agree. However, these issues were not confessional tenants. this is key- complete agreement is not reasonable (though submission in the household is) but as long as within the scope of the confessions you can agree, go for it! Conversation and teaching would be a great way to accomplish this- plus it establishes a habit of biblical devotion, leadership and teaching in the future home. 

Theognome


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## lynnie

I got saved in college. They handed me a bible and a Hal Lindsay book about the rapture, and I spent the next semester with the college group going to an old time Pentecostal church where they tarried up front at the altar and prayed in tongues for what seemed forever.

I met my husband right after he graduated from Westminster Seminary. We were friends for three years. He used to give me occasional books to read and tell me theological things when subjects came up. I felt drawn to him but boy did we have some theological arguements as friends!!! Looking back I don't know how he stood it, ha. I was amazed when he explained how Presbyterians understood infant baptism, I mean, I wasn't sure if people who believed in that were true Christians.

I don't know if this girl is "the one" but I suggest you give her top quality books and articles to read, or top quality CDs. Maybe start with John Piper who is accepted and liked even by many Arminian charismatics. His biographies of "men of whom the world is not worthy" are marvelous!! Or dive in with Grudem's Systematic theology and see if she'll read a chapter a week with you. He is Baptist and believes in the gifts today, but even the most ardent cessationist paedos will admit that most of his book is just great for introducing the layman to Reformed doctrines. You could start with Ch 16 on God's sovereignty which is a wonderful chapter. 

Hubby and I love each other so much, this summer will be 30 years. And I was a total fruitcake when we met  (Now I am only partly that way!)


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## Spinningplates2

Take it slow and give it plenty of time. You do not have to make up your mind to marry her this week. Keep it pure and God will turn your heart like a river.


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## Craig

I tried dating a woman when she was 17...a charasmatic, and I newly Reformed. I cared about her very deeply, but it wouldn't work out. There was a mixture of reasons why I cared for her...she was very beautiful, sort of broken, and appeared to be godly. After it didn't work out, I realized I had been making excuses for her and trying to justify pursuing her.

I met my wife about 3 months after letting go of the idea of dating the previous girl. My wife was not Reformed when we started dating...by God's grace, she became Reformed when I suggested she simpy read the book of Romans (that was about 9 months into our relationship). God used that. I remember talking to her over the phone and she kept saying "Paul said the same things you've been saying!" Do you think this fixed things for me? Actually, I became a bit distrustful. I thought she may have "changed her mind" in order to please me. Thankfully, that was absolutely NOT the case. She's a different woman from the time I met her 10 1/2 years ago. Think about this: the traits you see in this young lady now may not be the traits you would end up with if you were to marry. If this girl were to convert, you'd have a new woman.

My wife's embrace of the DoG were only an initial blessing...we were both egalitarians, and we started our married life off on the wrong path even though we had our soteriological ducks in a row. This changed, again by God's grace.

I don't think an Arminian wife is a terrible thing if she is submissive and follows where her husband leads. You have a functional Calvinist in that case. I wonder, however, if this girl you're dating is submissive. I have yet to find a woman that sits under the authority of a female pastor to be particularly submissive, in the biblical sense.

You seem to think embracing the DoG will be the clincher for getting the stamp of approval...seek wisdom on this. Ask this young lady to give you her initial response to two items: 
1) Patriarchy, 
2) Wives submit to your husbands

You'll have your answer at this point.


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## Whitefield

My  Don't treat her or give her the impression you are treating her as though she was a non-christian. Start with "she's a fellow believer in Christ", and proceed cautiously from there.


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## Iconoclast

Luke,
You have been given some good responses here. It is clear also that you must continue to grow in your own understanding also. Have you spoken to your parents , and elders in reference to this situation?
You might also be careful that you take time to carefully work through these teachings and make sure that she is not just trying to tell you what she thinks you want to hear, and that she is clever enough to put up a facade that gives a different impression than the heart reality.
At 17 you have time to slow it down quite a bit. She might not have even heard sound teaching at all at any time! Give her some good sermons to listen to. Give her a confession of faith.
Do her parents attend that church? What do your parents think of this whole situation. God has set up the home for a reason. If your parents are believer's they will be able to offer scriptural guidance.
If she makes progress over time, your friendship might progress also. If not God will provide another person for you in His own time.


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## Annalissa

Luke, 

In the past 8 years, I've asked this same question more than a few times for myself.  To  Mr. D'Arienzo, you've gotten some good replies here. I've seen the Lord work in more than several relationships where there was an Arminian/Calvinist-Reformed clash, & some of the relationships were blessed and flourished into a godly marriage. I've also seen them crash & burn when caution wasn't properly exercised. It's important to keep your eyes wide open not only to the doctrines this girl you're dating espouses personally & corporately with her church, but to the way her faith plays out in everyday life (obvious, I know). Your concerns in the possibility of hope for the relationship may not only be doctrinal (as with any relationship). However, as others have stated, you're 17...young enough to take it slow. (Definitely recommended!)

I don't want to get too gnostic or mystic in the sense of suggesting that you just "let go and let God" (although in a limited sense, you should, as He has already ordained who you'll marry), but it is so true that when you delight yourself in Christ, he will give you the desires of your heart... and He will reform those desires which don't please Him and would ultimately harm you. So it goes with relationships. If you're obeying God & seeking Him for growth in grace in Scripture study, fellowship, prayer etc., any raging insufficiencies and insurmountable flaws (whether spiritual or practical) will be made very apparent. He will also right you when you stumble & totter within your relational frames. 

One thing that I've observed as being paramount in having a successful relationship at all, especially romantically when doctrines/backgrounds haven't aligned (yet) is to make sure you're not trying to change the other person. Let the Lord do that if He so pleases. Make suggestions, provide resources, but always be aware of the "lips vs. life" issues. Even if the Arminianism goes and the Calvinism is "confessed" so to speak, you still have the obstacle of evaluating authenticity as opposed to lip service. I pray the Lord blesses you as you strive to serve Him! Kudos to you for your wisdom in seeing the importance of alignment of beliefs even in the dating stages of a possible relationship. It's really awesome to see in younger generations...!

That's my  times like, 5. 

Blessings, brother.


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## puritanpilgrim

Have you tried inviting her to your church?


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## LeeJUk

1) I would go through the catechism or have some bible study/prayer time with her and discuss these things and even discuss your concerns. I mean if your just sitting there predicting future events and theorising what she thinks about God and how a marriage would work out then your doomed to failure.

2) Keep in mind your not married yet and to expect her to change church now or even soon, is too much. Though like I said you could perhaps discuss that with her if you've been in this relationship for long and it's looking like marriage, e.g. ask - would she willing sometime in the future to change church? 

3) Spiritual experiences are not all bad. Many reformed people have gotten over-cautious I think.

4) Share books with her concerning tongues speaking or reformed theology.

5) Reformed theology is not perfect, I don't think the fact that shes an arminian / charismatic should mean that you stop seeing each other. If she loves Jesus and is saved but just misled then I'd say go for it. 

6) Most 17 year olds aren't interested in theology as far as I know even church attending ones so it's normal that she should trust her parents who trust the teaching of that church and it's normal that she should trust the teaching of that church.

7) I'd say theres some things that must be agreed upon. The changed personality and life that comes after you get born again. Faith Alone in Christ for salvation. The persons of Godhead, the humanity and deity of Christ and perhaps the rest of the apostles creed is the minimum i'd be looking for.

Just my opinions. Though I kinda had this same situation. I went to a charismatic church for a year, got called out of it by God whilst I still had a girlfriend going there. It was pretty sound solid teaching though, it wasn't like Charismania going on. So I went on sunday to my presbyterian church and attended the youth groups with her at the charismatic church and continued to see her. It didn't work out for several reasons, none of them being that. She loved God and was well saved.

Anyway take care, hope you make the right decision. Pray for wisdom and you will get it.


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## DonP

LeeJUk said:


> 1)
> 
> 6) Most 17 year olds aren't interested in theology as far as I know even church attending ones so it's normal that she should trust her parents who trust the teaching of that church and it's normal that she should trust the teaching of that church.



Then I would say they are too young to be courting. 

I don't see that young men and women should play with each other. 

If her parents were sound in theology, or in the same denomination or church and both parents agreed the relationship would be good, then the children could court based on their parent's oversight and protection. 

But if they do not have this then they must be able to discern sound theology or wait until they are old enough to have an interest and ability. 

Again, she will be instructing is kids. Would you want a young woman not able or interested yet in sound theology, but convinced of charismatic practice teaching your children?


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## LeeJUk

Again, she will be instructing is kids. Would you want a young woman not able or interested yet in sound theology, but convinced of charismatic practice teaching your children? - they won't be getting married nor have children at age 17 though. They'res years yet to develope sound theology if he continues.

But if they do not have this then they must be able to discern sound theology or wait until they are old enough to have an interest and ability. - So every christian must come to the conclusion of reformed faith before they are theologically sound then? I think it's quite boastful if we float around thinking were the hieght of theological correctness. What if she reads the bible and comes to the conclusion of arminianism. Is she undecerning and not acceptable as a wife?


If her parents were sound in theology, or in the same denomination or church and both parents agreed the relationship would be good, then the children could court based on their parent's oversight and protection. - Denominations...yeah...for practical purposes it would be good but the church of Jesus Christ is one church therefore if they from 2 different denominations but love Jesus and are born again are you saying they're not capable of oversight in their relationship? Again I find it quite prideful.

I'm not saying they shouldnt have knowledge of their bible and lets say whats contained within the apostles creed and what faith is, and who Jesus is and lets say they accept the trinity. However calling people undecerning and unacceptable because they aren't interested in predestination, election and the doctrines of grace like we are is pride.


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## lukebailey

Some very good points here.
To Puritanpilgrim, yes, she has been to my church. Im not quite sure what she thinks of it, however.

I have talked to my parents about it. They both love her. They understand that her theology is a problem, but will solve itself if the Lord desires it.

Her parents do go to that heretical church. They are great people, very funny and delightful. Yet I really dont know how well-grounded their theology is. Probably not the most well-educated in theological affairs. I dont really consider it a problem.


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## DonP

LeeJUk said:


> Again, she will be instructing is kids. Would you want a young woman not able or interested yet in sound theology, but convinced of charismatic practice teaching your children?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> - they won't be getting married nor have children at age 17 though. They'res years yet to develope sound theology if he continues.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> *
> How do you know what they will do, what will happen??
> *
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> But if they do not have this then they must be able to discern sound theology or wait until they are old enough to have an interest and ability.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
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> 
> 
> - So every christian must come to the conclusion of reformed faith before they are theologically sound then? I think it's quite boastful if we float around thinking were the hieght of theological correctness. What if she reads the bible and comes to the conclusion of arminianism. Is she undecerning and not acceptable as a wife?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If her parents were sound in theology, or in the same denomination or church and both parents agreed the relationship would be good, then the children could court based on their parent's oversight and protection. - Denominations...yeah...for practical purposes it would be good but the church of Jesus Christ is one church therefore if they from 2 different denominations but love Jesus and are born again are you saying they're not capable of oversight in their relationship? Again I find it quite prideful.
> 
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> 
> I'm not saying they shouldnt have knowledge of their bible and lets say whats contained within the apostles creed and what faith is, and who Jesus is and lets say they accept the trinity. However calling people undecerning and unacceptable because they aren't interested in predestination, election and the doctrines of grace like we are is pride.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Its not pride. Its not about who is right. Its about would you marry a person and let them train your children with those views? 
If you would then fine. I suggest you not. Therefore I suggest you not be seeking a wife in one who you can not share these things with and let her know they will be required for the relationship to end in marriage. It would be unkind to her to lead her on thinking there was hope when there isn't.

I see no need for them to be dating, unless they are considering the other as a potential mate. 
Those who say it is fine for them to play together alone may not see this as urgent. 
There are 17 year olds who marry. 
There are 17 year olds unmarried who get pregnant, though they profess to be Christians. 
Then what? You marry a woman who is Charismatic.


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## lukebailey

Really not at all sure what Peacemaker is trying to say. I accept that dating should have the goal of marriage.

But if we say that, at age 17, when most really don't have much theology at all yet, that we wont date anyone other than 5-point Calvinists, id venture to say that that is extremely limiting. 

And im definately not going to get her pregnant...


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## LeeJUk

Well is your interpretation of the bible infallible I would ask you peacemaker? and how "right" would the person have to be before they are acceptable. 4 points? 3 points of tulip? 

I agree with the statement that it is extremely limiting to say both people in the relationship must be calvinists.

-

I would ask you PeaceMaker, how do you know that over time some parts of say Luke's theology will not be shared with her?

Right now it seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that her and her parents are charismatic and part of a heretical church, so get out of the relationship as soon as possible if shes not willing to change which I find to be an absolutely crazy view.


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## DonP

For me it would be Confessional. 

But I am not saying it has to be for anyone else. 

Please re check my posts, I said here is the limit one should seek for: 

Would you want her to teach your children. 

-----------

And Luke I was speaking in general not specifically of you.


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## puritanpilgrim

After becoming a calvinist, I never dated anyone who wasn't a calvinist. But, honestly my wife and I don't have the exact views everything. She always goes with where I stand, but I don't know that two people will always have the same views on everything. For instance, my wife doesn't agree with war. I think there are times when countries can go to war. This doens't really cause us any problems in our marriage. And neither one of us spend much time trying to convice to other of our perspective. However, calvinism, is ver divisive. I wouldn't say don't have anything to do with her, because she may have alot of great qualities. However, I think this needs to be worked out. Many times, Arminians think Calvinists have a mean hateful God. And those aren't thoughts you want to have about your spouse. I not an extremely formal person. So I think taking her to your church is a good idea. Your not making a big commitment by going to the same church. You can even go in seperate cars, if driving to church is a problem. I took my wife to my church before we started dating, and I discussed the calvinism issue. Taking her to church is a good way to see if she is open to your view of God and to help he become educated in the process. If she can't stand your church, that is proabley a sign that it's not a very good idea. Try opening the Bible to Romans 9, reading it to her, then ask her what she thinks the passage is talking about. That's what I did.


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## lukebailey

puritanpilgrim said:


> Try opening the Bible to Romans 9, reading it to her, then ask her what she thinks the passage is talking about. That's what I did.




I just texted her what she thought of the verse. Her response was "its very convincing towards predestination, but it depends on how you interpret it."

Not sure what do with that.


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## DonP

Good start. 
You might ask her how else could it legitimately be interpreted?


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## lukebailey

Way ahead of you lol. I am actually quite interested to hear a response.

Perhaps this is not the proper arena to document such a conversation play-by-play, but i will post whatever sort of meaningful conclusion we can come to, either tonight or tommorow. 

And, of course, if anyone wants to offer advice, they can post here or PM me.


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## Jen

lukebailey said:


> I just texted her what she thought of the verse. Her response was "its very convincing towards predestination, but it depends on how you interpret it."
> 
> Not sure what do with that.



She's right. Arminians will argue that God predestines a group based on his foreknowledge that they will believe (not that they believe because they are elect and have been regenerated). The issue isn't predestination in itself -- that much is undeniable from Scripture; it's what we mean by predestination that is debated.

ETA: Don't start with predestination -- the U in TULIP flows naturally, but only when it comes after the T. These discussions always start with U and tend to go badly because Arminians and Calvinists don't agree on the meaning of total depravity. Once you accept the depths of the effects of sin, the rest of the petals fall into place quite nicely.


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## lukebailey

I understand what your saying, Jen. Do you have any good verses that address the matter of total depravity directly, that would perhaps be palatable for a cordial discussion between Arminian and Calvinist, yet at the same time fruitful?

About now im wishing my dad wasnt taking his yearly study break...


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## lynnie

I just want to add that you would be walking in the false teaching of the Pharisees to hold anything at all about her parents against her once she is an adult fully accountable to God. She's there, or very close to that now, depending on when you think parental responsibility for ones faith stops. Assuming we go with the old Jewish Bar Mitzvah ages I'd say 14 or 15...or say 20 if we pick the age when a man could join the army and go to war. For me, by 11th grade (16) I know I had my mind independently and fully made up on these matters.

Regardless, whatever the age, do NOT hold the parents against her. If they are raving blasphemers or Muslims or BaHais or PETA freaks or anything else, you must not judge her for the sins of her parents. God does not hold the sins of our fathers against us any longer. So evaluate her by her own heart and mouth, not anything crazy from her parents.


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## lukebailey

lynnie said:


> I just want to add that you would be walking in the false teaching of the Pharisees to hold anything at all about her parents against her once she is an adult fully accountable to God. She's there, or very close to that now, depending on when you think parental responsibility for ones faith stops. Assuming we go with the old Jewish Bar Mitzvah ages I'd say 14 or 15...or say 20 if we pick the age when a man could join the army and go to war. For me, by 11th grade (16) I know I had my mind independently and fully made up on these matters.
> 
> Regardless, whatever the age, do NOT hold the parents against her. If they are raving blasphemers or Muslims or BaHais or PETA freaks or anything else, you must not judge her for the sins of her parents. God does not hold the sins of our fathers against us any longer. So evaluate her by her own heart and mouth, not anything crazy from her parents.



Of course. point taken.


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## DonP

One might think it is wise to consider, that unless the woman is willing to have nothing to do with her parents, the husband will be involved with her parents? 

The grandparents usually like to be involved with the kids, give them things, maybe take the kids alone at times, holidays can be a real issue. 

So you may want to seriously consider the parents of the person you marry. 

Not to hold that against the woman, but that you and your children may be involved and influenced by them. 

And isn't a young person under the headship of their parent as long as they live with them? The parents may control or influence what she believes. 
I have seen parents tell kids they can't believe that way, its wrong and you can't go to that church etc. 

So it may have to wait until she is actually in her own home or separated from parents or they give her freedom in beliefs. It can make for some unpleasant family gatherings when there is great divergence without respect.


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## lukebailey

The parents have few, if any, theological views. They are simply church attending charismatics. Yet they have little knowledge of what they believe. I doubt theological disagreements with them would be a problem, as precision is less of a neccesity.


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## puritanpilgrim

> I understand what your saying, Jen. Do you have any good verses that address the matter of total depravity directly, that would perhaps be palatable for a cordial discussion between Arminian and Calvinist, yet at the same time fruitful?
> 
> About now im wishing my dad wasnt taking his yearly study break...



Here is a nice list: taken from Travis Carden .com: Know God. Make Him known



Total Depravity Verse List

The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. (Thus the necessity of a gracious, unconditional election.) Here is a sweeping survey of the biblical support for the doctrine.
Is man basically good or basically evil?

* Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
* Romans 5:7-8 - For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
* Romans 5:12,19 - through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

c.f. Job 15:14-16, 25:4-6; Ecclesiastes 9:3
All men? Are there any exceptions?

* Psalm 143:2 - And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight no man living is righteous.
* Galatians 3:22 - the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin
* Romans 11:32 - For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
* Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
* 2 Chronicles 6:36 - there is no man who does not sin
* Isaiah 53:6 - All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
* Micah 7:2-4 - The godly person has perished from the land, and there is no upright person among men. All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; each of them hunts the other with a net. Concerning evil, both hands do it well. The prince asks, also the judge, for a bribe, and a great man speaks the desire of his soul; so they weave it together. The best of them is like a briar, the most upright like a thorn hedge.
* Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
* 1 John 1:8,10 - If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar and His word is not in us.
* Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

c.f. 1 Kings 8:46; 116:11, 130:3, 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Jeremiah 2:29; Micah 7:2-4, Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Corinthians 5:9-10; James 3:2; etc., etc.
Are people good deep down?

* Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
* Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?
Heart (Hardened, Deceitful)

* Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
* Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
* Matthew 15:19 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
* Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
* Psalm 36:1-2 - Transgression speaks to the ungodly within his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes. For it flatters him in his own eyes concerning the discovery of his iniquity and the hatred of it.
* Matthew 13:14 - "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'"
* Proverbs 28:26 - He who trusts in his own heart is a fool

c.f. Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Psalm 58:4-5; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26; Psalm 10:4, 94:11; Mark 7:21-23; Ephesians 4:17-18
Mind (Depraved)

* Romans 1:28-31 - And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
* Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
* Ephesians 4:17-18 - So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
* Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - For among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. But they are altogether stupid and foolish. Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge

c.f. Romans 8:7, 12:2; Ephesians 4:23
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

* John 8:34 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
* 2 Peter 2:19 - by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
* Titus 3:3 - For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
* Galatians 4:8-9 - However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
* Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin... Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart... For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
* Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
* Romans 6:20 - For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
* 2 Timothy 2:25-26 - if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

c.f. Isaiah 42:6-7; Psalm 51:112; John 8:31-32,36; 2 Corinthians 3:17
Affections/Desires (Perverted)

* Romans 1:24-27 - Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
* 2 Timothy 3:2-4 - For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God
* Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
* Isaiah 32:6 - For a fool speaks nonsense, and his heart inclines toward wickedness
* John 3:19 - "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
* John 8:44 - "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."

c.f. Genesis 3:16; Psalm 4:2, 52:3-4 140:8; Proverbs 10:23; 2 Peter 2:13
et al (Utter Ruin)

* Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled
* Romans 7:18 - I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
* Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head there is nothing sound in it, only bruises, welts and raw wounds, not pressed out or bandaged, nor softened with oil.

Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

* Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
* Job 11:12 - An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.
* 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'"
* Matthew 7:18 - "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." (c.f. Luke 6:43)
* Matthew 12:34 - "how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil."
* Romans 8:7 - the mind set on the flesh... does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so
* Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
* Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

c.f. Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; John 15:5; Romans 14:23; 1 John 5:18-19
Are men at least born pure? What about the "tabula rasa"?

* Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.
* Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
* Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
* Isaiah 48:8 - "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; and you have been called a rebel from birth."
* John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

c.f. Proverbs 22:15
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?

* John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
* Romans 8:7-8 - the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
* Colossians 1:21 - you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds
* James 4:4 - You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

c.f. Romans 1:28-30
What is man's relationship to God?

* Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
* Ephesians 2:12-13 - remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
* Ephesians 2:3 - Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

c.f. Isaiah 59:2
Can man then do anything to please God?

* Proverbs 15:9 - The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
* Proverbs 15:8/21:27 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
* Proverbs 28:9 - He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
* Isaiah 64:6 - For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
* Romans 8:7-8 - the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
* Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]

c.f. Psalm 50:16; Proverbs 21:4; Isaiah 1:10-15; Amos 5:21-24
Are men at least seeking God?

* Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."
* John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
* Isaiah 65:1 - "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me."
* Isaiah 64:7 - There is no one who calls on Your name, who arouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us and have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
* Romans 3:10-12 - "there is none who seeks for God"

c.f. Romans 10:20
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?

* 1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
* 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
* 1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
* Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."
* Matthew 11:27 - "no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.'

c.f. Psalm 119:18; Proverbs 4:19; Isaiah 42:6-7; Hosea 14:9; Matthew 16:17; John 8:43; Acts 22:14, 26:18; Ephesians 4:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:20
Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

* John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
* John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
* John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
* John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
* Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
* Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
* 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
* Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

c.f. Jonah 2:9; Zephaniah 3:9; John 15:16; 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 1:6; James 1:18
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?

* Romans 12:3 - God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
* 2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours
* 1 Corinthians 3:6 - I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
* Acts 5:31 - "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
* Acts 11:18 - When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
* Philippians 1:29 - For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake... to believe in Him
* Acts 18:27 - And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace
* Acts 3:16 - "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all."
* Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
* 2 Timothy 2:25 - The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, [etc.]... if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth
* 1 Corinthians 12:3 - no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit
* 2 Peter 1:3 - His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence
* Romans 11:36 - For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
* 1 Corinthians 4:7 - For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
* John 3:6 & 6:63 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing;"

c.f. 1 Chronicles 29:14; John 5:44; Romans 1:8; Ephesians 6:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:2
Can men do anything to help themselves?

* Romans 5:6 - For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
* Colossians 2:13 - When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions
* Ephesians 2:1-2 & 4-5 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

c.f. Psalm 49:7-9; Jeremiah 2:22; Ezekiel 16:6, 37:1-3
Who then can be saved?!

* Matthew 19:26 - Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

c.f. Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27
Recommended Reading

* Pink, A.W. Our Accountability to God (formerly Gleanings From the Scriptures: Man's Total Depravity). Online: The Total Depravity of Man and The Doctrine of Man's Impotence.
* Boettner, Lorraine. Total Inability. In The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.
* Boston, Thomas. The State of Nature. In Human Nature in its Fourfold State.
* Calvin, John. Book 2, Chapters 1-5. In Institutes of the Christian Religion.
* Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will.
* Edwards, Jonathan. Freedom of the Will (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 1).


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## PastorTim

Is not the God of the Arminians different than the God of the Bible just as the Jesus of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the Jesus of scripture?
The God of the Bible sent his son Jesus to account in full for the salvation of the elect. The God of Arminians merely sent him to open the door that they may save themselves, yes?


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## Whitefield

PastorTim said:


> Is not the God of the Arminians different than the God of the Bible just as the Jesus of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the Jesus of scripture?
> The God of the Bible sent his son Jesus to account in full for the salvation of the elect. The God of Arminians merely sent him to open the door that they may save themselves, yes?



There is a difference between a "different God" and the same God misunderstood. To equate the Arminian with the JW is a mistake, I think. It builds the fence a little to close to one's own house. The Arminian has the same Jesus, it's just they misunderstand how He works.


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