# When good works are sin



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 30, 2005)

In presenting the true gospel to people, they often find many ideas troubling or confusing, especially in regards to God's sovereignty as it relates to man's responsibility, the eternal decree by God of all things, etc.

In discussing soteriology with a non-Calvinist, I have encountered many times an objection when I am defending and presenting the Biblical gospel. The objection relates to the issue of total depravity/inability.

In essence, people often object that if we are totally depraved, completely sinners through and through, and not capable of willing to perform any good and holy work, how is it that so many pagans do "good deeds" all the time? For example, many pagans love their children and would give up their lives for them. Is this not a good deed? The list could go on and on, obviously.

For a while, I had a hard time answering this objection, other than simply saying "well, when sinners do good things, it is not considered righteous to God" with the simple Biblical defense that our best righteousness is dirty menstrual rags to the Lord.

However, as I was reading through Calvin's _Institutes_ tonight on a plane to Memphis, I realized just *why* these seemingly "good deeds" - even things that are directly fulfilling the Law in some way and should, by all means, be holy and acceptable to the Lord - can be, in a sense, "evil" deeds. The heart.

If an unbeliever does a "good deed" towards another or towards the Lord, unless they are regenerate, they are not doing this deed for the Lord. In other words, this deed is not an act of loving obedience to God and for His glory, but it is a selfish action.

Without doing things, even God's Law, with a regenerate heart, the end result will always be evil in the eyes of the Lord. We are not capable, in any way, of pleasing the Lord unless we are at peace with Him through Christ. When we are at peace with God through Jesus Christ, we do things out of our love for Him, and with a heart inclined to please Him and to do His commandments.

It is truly possible to do God's law and be doing an evil action. I don't think it is going too far to call it a form of idolatry or self-worship, either. This is the fundamental difference between an unregenerate person doing a good work and a believer in Christ Jesus doing a good work - One works for himself, and the other works for the Lord.

Thoughts?


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## Puritan Sailor (May 30, 2005)

Heidelburg Catechism



> Question 62. But why cannot our good works be the whole, or part of our righteousness before God?
> 
> Answer: Because, that the righteousness, which can be approved of before the tribunal of God, must be absolutely perfect, (a) and in all respects conformable to the divine law; and also, that our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin. (b)
> 
> (a) Gal.3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Deut.27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. (b) Isa.64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.





> Question 91. But what are good works?
> 
> Answer: Only those which proceed from a true faith, (a) are performed according to the law of God, (b) and to his glory; (c) and not such as are founded on our imaginations, or the institutions of men. (d)
> 
> (a) Rom.14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (b) Lev.18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. 1 Sam.15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. Eph.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (c) 1 Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (d) Deut.12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Ezek.20:18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: Ezek.20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; Isa.29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Matt.15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, Matt.15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Matt.15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



[Edited on 5-31-2005 by puritansailor]


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## Me Died Blue (May 31, 2005)

Exactly. "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31). That is a _universal_ command, and thus it applies _specifically_ to _every_ single act, including acts of doing and of thinking. In other words, the command essentially becomes an infinitude of individual commands: "When you discipline children, do it to the glory of God. When you give money to this charity, do it to the glory of God. When you give to that charity, do it to the glory of God. When you babysit, do it to the glory of God. When you compliment someone's dress, do it to the glory of God. When you give someone a ride, do it to the glory of God," and so on, covering every possible act.

But because of their sinful nature and constant suppression of the truth, unbelievers do not acknowledge God with their hearts at any time, and thus _no_ act of theirs is done with the intention of glorifying God - and therefore _every_ single act of theirs, in deed or thought, whatever good it might have otherwise been, is a direct and explicit case of breaking of the commandment given in 1 Corinthians 10:31.


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## D Battjes (May 31, 2005)

Even in the case of a regenerate person their "good works" are also tainted with sin. THe Lord is pleased because it is through Christ that He sees te deeds He ordained. But we all have a little piece of Cannan left in our mortal bodies.


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## Me Died Blue (May 31, 2005)

"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment" (Is. 64:6), and furthermore, we certainly do not keep the command of 1 Corinthians 10:31 with _so many_ of our thoughts and deeds (speaking mainly from personal, inward experience).


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 31, 2005)

> Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


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## Texas Aggie (May 31, 2005)

Only God can provide the means to satisfy Himself. He has done this through His Son. Obedience to the law is merely a requirement for His creation. The elect as well as the non.


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## Preach (May 31, 2005)

John Gerstner called the works that an unregenerate person does either "bad-bad works" or "bad-good works". 

An unregenerate person's motive is always evil=bad work. Then, the outward work can be good in and of itself, or bad.

For example, it is better for the unregenerate to go to church and read his Bible and farm faithfully, and pay his bills, and take care of his family, etc. These outward works are good, but the motive is bad.

"Her name was Edith, and she is surrounded on the north, south, east, and west, by Edith". Edith, as an unregenerate person, gestates her baby, and takes care of her family, and is concerned about her children's behavior for sinful purposes. Those children are a reflection of her.

Gerstner's position simply reflects the Divines position on the subject of good works. Read the WCF. I just happened to read this and listen to Gerstner's commenatry on it yesterday.

"In Christ",
Bobby


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## wsw201 (May 31, 2005)

Gabriel,

Have you considered starting with the imputation of Adam's sin and the fall as the root of our inability?


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## D Battjes (May 31, 2005)

All our works are as filthy rags.

This thread appears to be making a distinction between regenerate vs unregenerate and doing Good.

Even obedience is not done for pure motives in most. 


Yes, anyone can do good.

I know many non Christians who do good things for society and their neighbor. 

SOmetimes even more good than believers, which is a terrible shame, including myself.

There is no such thing as the moral self imporovement plan. THose in Christ Jesus will not even think or recognize when they have "done well".

If you notice Matt 25. Both the sheep and the goats did not know when they did or didnt do what is required.

I never realized this until someone pointed it out to me a few months back.


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## coxcorr (Jun 3, 2005)

Romans 14:23b "everything that does not come from faith is sin." 

Since the unbeliever has no faith everything he/she does is sin. 

<><

YIC,


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## Larry Hughes (Jun 3, 2005)

Gabriel,

One needs to be careful here because not even a Christian´s works are considered good in and of themselves, post-conversion, they are accepted due to faith/trust, or strictly speaking on account of Christ. This is why a vigilant understanding of the Law and Gospel is necessary. The external work is nebulous as to the Law even if you gave your very life for another. In order to truly be fulfilled it must come from a pure heart that is utterly altruistic devoid of ALL self-interest "“ that is the heart of the Law and THIS is summed up in the Great Commandment. That is why neither the pagan or Christian fulfills the Law, certainly not pre-conversion and neither post-conversion. Furthermore, we (Christians) strictly speaking add to our sin debt daily though we are forever covered by the blood of Christ. What separates a believer and all others, open sinners and false saints, is faith in Christ alone. Without this there is no difference. Or as CS Lewis aptly put it by the Law Christianity does not stand out from any other religion or philosophy. 

This, Christ as Christ, pure Redeemer/Gospel, is the stumbling block to the Jew/religious and the foolishness to the Gentile/irreligious. It cannot make sense except under a correct understanding of the Law and the Gospel that fulfilled it. It is also why we have, today, a difficulty in looking back at say David and wonder in astonishment with all his horrible outward sins why he was righteous. Because he was covered by Christ, though a great sinner, his sin was never EVER counted against him as horrible as it was. To hear this apart from faith one RAGES against God and the Law in essence saying, "œWHAT, you mean David the adulterer, murderer, liar, multi-wife sleeping with sinner is righteous and I the guy who is basically good and cheats only a little on my taxes, job and occasionally curses am under wrath! This is foolishness!" Far from David´s example being a license to sin but rather to teach and reveal unto us the real depth of the grace given us through Christ Jesus.

This is where the whole confusion over the Law & Gospel distinction seems to come to fruition. It is necessary to understand the right or wrong understanding in what actually motivates Christian living to understand why we live under grace and still in this life never fulfill the law and how we exercise works/deeds. No one in any form of right orthodoxy would proffer that "˜we are saved by works´, but the issue/debate concerning Law/Gospel is more confused internally within the church considering what motivates true Christian living, and by extension to unbelievers. 

On the one hand some would say that fear of punishment/hope of reward for obedience is a right motivation (typically Wesleyan and other holiness type movements, other Armenian type movements, pietism and some strains of legalist reformed movements who would deny they are really legalist). But others teach from Scripture that gratitude (typically traditional Lutheran and Reformed) is the true and only motivation. Which is it? For this is no small issue to the sheep and eternity "œturns" on this issue because ultimately one is a false teaching that is dictating the Christian life and resurrects a false gospel which is no gospel at all. And it matters greatly how one declares Law and Gospel to the sheep and to the lost world at large.

If we say that fear of punishment/hope of reward is the motivation, then what do we mean by fear of punishment/hope of reward? That is the next logical, natural and common sense question to ask. For we must openly and honestly answer what is the "œfear" and what is the "œreward" in view that motivates? There must be an object of the fear of punishment or hope of reward. To speak of such without an object is meaningless altogether. So what is its object? If by this we mean ultimately justification (or salvation narrowly), then have we not said point blank that salvation is by works and obedience to the Law? Have we not re-laid the heavy burden back upon the backs of the believer? Have we not sent them back into a protestant purgatory? 

However, what else could be the fear/reward that motivates? For some avoid this clear "˜works´ salvation by changing the fear/reward motivation a bit. So, what else could it be? Temporal punishments/rewards? Perhaps but is this not as well as the afore mentioned motivation, which is clearly works salvation/maintenance, selfish which is in direct conflict and opposition with the heart of the Law "“ to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. The heart of the Law is utter selfless charity. Yet this is impossible as long as any motivation to obey it is fear of punishment or hope of reward for fear of punishment and hope of reward necessarily through it back onto and into the one "œobeying the law".

Furthermore, even if the fear/reward motivation is merely some temporal reason and not justification, is that not really another version of "œI´m doing the law to earn favor and not altruistically for God or neighbor"? Isn´t my objective, then, in "œdoing the Law" a selfish object either way "“ negatively/positively? Isn´t that the nature and essence of any fear/reward motivation scenario? Are we not saying, "œThis is really why I´m doing it"? One may say it is right to fear punishment for disobedience and seek or expect reward for obedience to God´s Law (keep in mind we are speaking post-fall). However, one can never escape the fact that such reasoning (i.e., basis, foundation, root, source) for obeying God´s law actually is violating the very heart of the Law it seeks to obey "“ the Law which requires true heart, unselfish and altruistic "œdoing" in order to be fulfilled. 

To look at it from another angle if you as a Christian "œdo" something externally good for me as your neighbor, then were honest enough to turn around and tell me your heart´s motivation as fear/reward thus, "œThe only reason I´m doing this is that I fear God´s punishment for not doing it and He will reward my doing it." - you have just supremely insulted me. In essence you have said, "œYou are insignificant to this "˜good work´ I am doing for you. If I had no fear of punishment/hope of reward motivating me (whatever it may be) I would not have done and would rather have not done this "˜good work´ for you at all." One might rightly respond, "œPlease, don´t do me anymore "˜favors´, I´m overwhelmed by your love for me (with much sarcasm)". Thus, we see the real and repugnant idea behind such a motivation driven by fear of punishment or hope of reward by any object for the same (e.g., justification, temporal, etc"¦). In such a scenario the recipient of the good work of the Law becomes in the heart of the "œdoer" a mere object to be used by the "œdoer" and not a charitable recipient of the good law from a pure self-less heart. Such is cold and callus, and violates the very heart of the Law altogether even though externally the Law is obeyed. <<<This is no different than the hypocrisy of pagans.>>> If this kind of motivation is this nauseating concerning the Law toward neighbor, then how much more sinful and revolting is such a motivation for obeying the Law toward God "“ to love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. How can one love God with all their heart when their heart´s motivation is fear of punishment and hope of reward (what ever it is) which is definitively and necessarily self-centered, self-seeking, and self-interested?

However, did not Paul himself say that the Gospel is the power and the Law has not the power to do what it commands? Did he not always front all exhortation to Christian living with a view to the mercy you have received, in light of the Gospel, in light of the declarative reality of what Christ did for you, in light of all righteousness gained by Christ for you already! Note: The gratitude motivation here is not a motivation to gain these things, but motivated because one has decidedly and assuredly, via Christ alone, already, really and truly without chance of lose gained them - such that one doubts not that they are gained and secure eternally. Is not the real motivation for Christian living, serving God and neighbor, out of an increasingly assured and reassured heartfelt joy and gratitude for the great immeasurable grace and mercy shown to the believer? Real gratitude does not do a good work or work of the Law by explicitly seeking to say, "œI´m doing this out of gratitude for the grace given me." No that would be a return to selfish motivation and making gratitude a kind of law in and of itself. True Christian gratitude operates without even "œseeing itself" but rather arises naturally from and as a result of a fixed sight of firm faith and trust on Christ alone and His work on "˜my´ behalf. As one is increasingly fixed upon Christ as redeemer as proclaimed in the Gospel (both as sin bearer and giver of all righteousness necessary/it is finished!), this wonderful gratitude arise naturally. Just as true sanctification arises not from itself or a view of itself, but naturally from a firm and fixed view of justification. It requires no effort or work, yet it lives and works. Just as I am factually and truly alive, I breath naturally due to the reality of being alive. Yet, I do not have to actively think and do breathing in order to live or make myself live, breathing is a result of already being alive. 

It goes back to our relationship with God. As all wars, hatred, murders, thefts and sin fundamentally arise from our fallen sinful relationship with God (under wrath), so does all the fruits of the Spirit and true good works and true obedience to the Law arise from our new relationship to God through Christ as pure redeemer. To love the Law truly is to love Christ Whom alone fulfilled the Law. The Law, which is a reflection of God in His holiness, like God, cannot be approached nakedly or apart from Christ. That is why Christ as Christ/Redeemer said, "œI am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." Neither can we come to the Law and "œdo the Law except through Christ as Redeemer alone. For sure the Law must be declared. But, the Gospel pure and true, and unmixed and confused with the Law must be declared if true holy living is desired among Christians. Our remaining sin nature allows us not to come to the Law without festering up sin and self-righteousness. We must come by the Spirit Who bears witness of Christ, the Gospel, then and only then can we even begin to live, greatly imperfect as it will be, in the glorious freedom Christ purchased for us.

Grace and Peace In Christ,

Larry


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