# Deacons



## Gforce9 (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm trying to understand why various folks come to different conclusions as to who is eligible for the office of Deacon. I'm ultimately looking for why (reasons; biblically even if using poor hermeneutics) folks think women as office-bearing deacon is acceptable. I'm looking for how they get there using or mis-using the Bible.....


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## Jake (Apr 23, 2013)

This thread I started last month might be of interest if you are specifically looking at the female issue: http://www.puritanboard.com/f116/practices-female-deacons-presbyterian-reformed-denominations-78354/

I see you commented there, but I think some of the commentary and links might help if you take another look.


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## SRoper (Apr 23, 2013)

What I've heard argued is that 1 Timothy 2:12 is speaking only of roles of authority while the office of deacon is one of service. First Timothy 3:11 is understood to be referring to women rather than the wives of deacons. Phoebe in Romans 16 is thought to have held a recognized office in the church, "a servant/deacon of the church at Cenchreae."

Others take the approach that deaconess is a separate office from deacon. They see the position described in 1 Timothy 5.

There's the outline of the arguments as I understand them. I don't find them to be persuasive.


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## Scott1 (Apr 24, 2013)

I Timothy 3 and Titus I explicitly qualify the church offices, whether by name of minister, bishop, elder or deacon, and one of those qualifications is men. Note I Timothy 3 does not refer to the wife of one husband, but only the husband of one wife.
The creation order patterns it and it flows from it, implicitly.

Women served in the church, and there is a servant widow model I Timothy 5 (aged 60 widow, vow of celibacy, destitute). That's the closest to having an office in the Scripture- and it is not the I Timothy 3, Titus I offices.

Historically the church did not ordain women, it is why this is a relatively recent invention, flowing from human notions of modernism.

An excellent summary of the history and Scripture on this is here:
http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/schwertley/deacon.html


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## FenderPriest (Apr 24, 2013)

Like I said in that thread, I wrote an essay on the topic if you're interested. It's not public right now for various reasons, mainly due to other priorities on my right now that keep me from editing it for public use. The OPC Report of the Committee on Women in Church Office is a good place to start since it has the majority opinion (against women in any office) and the minority opinion (allowance for women in diaconate office) presented.


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## Scott1 (Apr 24, 2013)

FenderPriest said:


> The OPC Report of the Committee on Women in Church Office is a good place to start since it has the majority opinion (against women in any office) and the minority opinion (allowance for women in diaconate office) presented.



And of course, the minority report was not adopted as it would have been a huge change from past doctrine and polity, and is not confessed or practiced by OPC.


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## Edward (Apr 24, 2013)

Gforce9 said:


> I'm ultimately looking for why (reasons; biblically even if using poor hermeneutics) folks think women as office-bearing deacon is acceptable.



Because some folks ignore the teachings of scripture that don't fit their world view.


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## Gforce9 (Apr 24, 2013)

Edward said:


> Gforce9 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm ultimately looking for why (reasons; biblically even if using poor hermeneutics) folks think women as office-bearing deacon is acceptable.
> ...



I think some would point to Phoebe as Scott mentioned and would probably say "See, Scripture says it's ok". I'm certainly not advocating women deacons, but am trying to understand the biblical logic (or misuse thereof) to come to the conclusion. I agree that the motivation is often tainted with the desire for that which is to be proved.......



SRoper said:


> What I've heard argued is that 1 Timothy 2:12 is speaking only of roles of authority while the office of deacon is one of service. First Timothy 3:11 is understood to be referring to women rather than the wives of deacons. Phoebe in Romans 16 is thought to have held a recognized office in the church, "a servant/deacon of the church at Cenchreae."
> 
> Others take the approach that deaconess is a separate office from deacon. They see the position described in 1 Timothy 5.
> 
> There's the outline of the arguments as I understand them. I don't find them to be persuasive.


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## Scott1 (Apr 24, 2013)

Gforce9 said:


> I think some would point to Phoebe as Scott mentioned and would probably say "See, Scripture says it's ok"



We need to be careful in what we are assuming.
Phoebe was a servant of the church, could have been a servant widow type like I Timothy 5, or just a reputable servant in the church.

The office of Deacon is more than a substitute word of 'servant.'
It's an office explicitly qualified (to men) mentioned often in the context with the other church offices, whether they are termed minister, bishop, elder or deacon.
Offices have authority, and are part of the governance of the church, and from that flows a pattern from creation that God establishes, which ordinarily is men having that authority over members, it is not normal for women to have that authority over men, and that part goes right back to creation.
Lots of godly women serve in the church, no doubt Phoebe was one of them,
but that's not the same as being a Deacon, in that office.
When Deacon's started in Acts 6, seven men were chosen, just as twelve men were chosen for apostles.
There is no denying it biblically.


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## Gforce9 (Apr 24, 2013)

Scott1 said:


> Gforce9 said:
> 
> 
> > I think some would point to Phoebe as Scott mentioned and would probably say "See, Scripture says it's ok"
> ...



This is valuable, Scott. Just for clarity, I'm not "assuming" anything in this, but trying to understand others may.


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## FenderPriest (Apr 24, 2013)

Scott1 said:


> FenderPriest said:
> 
> 
> > The OPC Report of the Committee on Women in Church Office is a good place to start since it has the majority opinion (against women in any office) and the minority opinion (allowance for women in diaconate office) presented.
> ...


 Certainly, but I find it helpful that it's at least voiced even if the majority (by obvious implication) didn't affirm it. Even still, it's an issue being worked out in the PCA in similar ways.

Many sound and Biblical Reformed brethren affirm women deacons without affirming women in authoritative office in the church, and if the original post is asking anything, it seems to be wanting to understand how those people think through the issue. 

Regarding the exegetical work of people who affirm women deacons - whether one agrees with it or not - is most succinctly and convincingly presented in Jennifer H. Stiefel's essay, "Women Deacons in 1 Timothy: A Linguistic and Literary Look at 'Women likewise...' (1 Tim 3.11)" in New Testament Studies Vol. 41, 1995, pp. 442-457. 

Also, Bethlehem Baptist Church has the practice of women deacons, and you can read through their articles about the office and their thinking about women serving in it here.

I don't mean to be divisive on this, just trying to connect folks with the resources in helping them understand the other side of the argument.


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## Scott1 (Apr 25, 2013)

FenderPriest said:


> Many sound and Biblical Reformed brethren affirm women deacons without affirming women in authoritative office in the church,



The difficulty is many argue for no distinction between the I Timothy 3, Titus 1 office and a I Timothy 5 servant widow, as if they are interchangeable- they are not and were not historically.

For example, Mr. Calvin's consistory at Geneva had women deacons, it is often asserted without the distinction "of a different class," as Mr. Calvin made. These were destitute widows who took a vow of celibacy and were, as best we can tell, understood to be under the authority of the Deacons and Elders of the church.

Although Scripture, I Timothy 5 says the destitute widow servant must be at least 60 years old, the church gradually lowered the age, younger women were naturally restrained to not marry at younger and younger ages, and the servant widow office gradually was abandoned because of it.

The modern advocates are either not aware or misrepresent this in the modern debates on this. They are not arguing for a I Timothy 5 servant widow, charged to the church, but rather women serving in the ordained authoritative office of Deacon under pretenses that can only be said to be modernist, that is the ideas of man, not God's commands or order.

In addition, much shallow modern argumentation tries to reduce the office of Deacon to having no authority, or being merely a substitute word for 'servant,' or 'helper."
That's not biblical, even if other theology is sound.


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## FenderPriest (Apr 25, 2013)

Scott1 said:


> They are not arguing for a I Timothy 5 servant widow, charged to the church, but rather women serving in the ordained authoritative office of Deacon under pretenses that can only be said to be modernist, that is the ideas of man, not God's commands or order.
> 
> In addition, much shallow modern argumentation tries to reduce the office of Deacon to having no authority, or being merely a substitute word for 'servant,' or 'helper."
> That's not biblical, even if other theology is sound.


I'd argue exegetically for women deacons and neither of those positions you present represents my argument clearly, nor the best arguments that I've read from others for this function. This, I think, is a concern I'd have about this and like discussions - when opinions one disagrees with aren't presented so that those who hold them would affirm them as fair and accurate. Hence, the resources I pointed to do represent the argument in its best form for to meet the OP's request and leave it to him to decide.


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## Scott1 (Apr 25, 2013)

Also, it might be helpful, a search (advanced search) of previous threads as there have been substantive discussions about the topic before.


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