# Total Depravity



## The Author of my Faith (Aug 22, 2009)

How would you give a simple, but thorough explanation to someone who asked you "Why did God make man with the ability to become totally depraved?".

Does the bible address the reason WHY God made man with the ability to sin? Is this one of the questions that really cannot be answered since it is trying to understand why God does what he does? Is this a "Who are you O man to answer back to God" kind of question?

Please keep it simple I am trying to answer a friend as best I can and though I am a student of the word I still am by no means a scholar.


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## ewenlin (Aug 22, 2009)

I think we discussed something along this line here.


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## OPC'n (Aug 22, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> How would you give a simple, but thorough explanation to someone who asked you "Why did God make man with the ability to become totally depraved?".
> 
> Does the bible address the reason WHY God made man with the ability to sin? Is this one of the questions that really cannot be answered since it is trying to understand why God does what he does? Is this a "Who are you O man to answer back to God" kind of question?
> 
> Please keep it simple I am trying to answer a friend as best I can and though I am a student of the word I still am by no means a scholar.



Ok, my . God did not create us to sin since that would make Him evil. I believe He withheld His attribute of perfection from Adam and Eve. He made them innocent of any sin but not perfect. Perfection denotes accomplishing an act without flaw or in their case without sin. As soon as their temptation confronted them, they were without perfect ability to overcome the temptation and fell. So I don't think of sin as something created by God and added to mankind's nature just waiting to be preformed, but instead a lack of something in mankind's nature that being perfection. Hope that makes sense.


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## Skyler (Aug 22, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> How would you give a simple, but thorough explanation to someone who asked you "Why did God make man with the ability to become totally depraved?".
> 
> Does the bible address the reason WHY God made man with the ability to sin? Is this one of the questions that really cannot be answered since it is trying to understand why God does what he does? Is this a "Who are you O man to answer back to God" kind of question?
> 
> Please keep it simple I am trying to answer a friend as best I can and though I am a student of the word I still am by no means a scholar.



He made Adam and Eve "free" in the sense that they could choose either good or evil. He did this, knowing that they would fall, and that he could then show forth the attributes of grace and mercy. It's inherently for His glory.


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## OPC'n (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't believe anyone has ever had a free will including Adam and Eve. That would have put God out of control of what would happen and left it up to Adam and Eve. Even now we are assigned good works which were decreed from before the foundations of the world. We will do them bc God has decreed it and not because we choose to do them....Eph 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

-----Added 8/22/2009 at 02:55:12 EST-----



Joshua said:


> TranZ4MR said:
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> > He made them innocent of any sin but not perfect. Perfection denotes accomplishing an act without flaw or in their case without sin. As soon as their temptation confronted them, they were without perfect ability to overcome the temptation and fell.
> ...



Many reformed believers believe that they were only made innocent not perfect. We find our perfection in Christ's work.


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## toddpedlar (Aug 22, 2009)

Sarah - 

We do will things... it's in our nature. Our will is free - not in the autonomous sense, but everything we choose we do so because we want to, according to our nature and the limitations that places on us, and not because we are compelled by some external force. When God decrees, he does not manipulate. Adam and Eve were decreed to sin - AND they did so freely, of their own volition. You should check the WCF on this point, chapters 4 and 9 in particular. 

Adam and Eve were created with every resource they needed to reject the temptation to sin. There was no flaw in them that meant that being presented with a temptation they could not help themselves. They willfully sinned and did so despite the fact that as creatures without sin there was no necessity that they sin. After the fall, there is necessity, because we are flawed with a sinful nature that is different than that of Adam and Eve. See chapter 6 for this.


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## OPC'n (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm not going to argue with you guys on this.


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## Hippo (Aug 22, 2009)

God created Man in the certainty under his divine decree that they would fall, become totally depraved and those he elected would be saved so as to glorify himself.

In order for God to be gloryfied in the way he desired he decided that he would save man monogistically, which required that man be totally depraved. In that way salvation was all to the glory of God with none of the work of salvation giving glory to man.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

I think it's fairly clear that Sarah's aversion to free will is not to the notion that man is free but to the notion that man always possesses the libertarian brand of freedom. She is certainly in accord with the Reformed understanding of man's freedom.

As for whether Adam and Eve were created perfect, I cannot maintain that. Every effect has an efficient cause, and if they sinned, then they could not have had morally perfect characters prior.


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## Skyler (Aug 22, 2009)

Sarah,

You're equivocating on two different definitions of "free will"--the freedom to choose either good or evil, and the freedom to make choices independently of any outside influences. 

The latter is what men do not have, while the former is what I(and, I believe, the WCF) was referring to in saying that Adam and Eve had free will.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I think the problem here is the conflation of _perfect_ and _immutable_. They are not the same. Neither are _immutable_ and _imperfect_. Adam and Eve were created perfect in that they were complete (i.e. as to how God wanted them to be created). They were morally perfect, inclined toward obedience to God's Law, etc., not merely _neutral_ or _just_ free.



If you want to define "perfect" like that, I guess that's okay, but I would personally find such a definition misleading. It is obvious in the first place that Adam and Eve were created as God wanted them to be created, and therefore to call them perfect simply because they are in accord with God's decretive will seems odd, perhaps superfluous.

Also, we will be in a superior moral state compared to Adam and Eve when we are glorified, in which case Adam and Eve couldn't accurately be called perfect, as perfection implies the impossibility of improvement. That is why I define moral perfection as including the inability to sin.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> They lacked nothing to fulfill God's commands.



Are you familiar with Jonathan Edwards's distinction between natural ability and moral ability?


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## Skyler (Aug 22, 2009)

Confessor said:


> Joshua said:
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> > They lacked nothing to fulfill God's commands.
> ...



I think what we're trying to point out is that Adam and Eve were both naturally able and morally able to obey God's commands, but sinned instead.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Skyler said:


> Confessor said:
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The point I was about to make is that it is impossible to be both naturally and morally able to do something, and not do it.

Or, to put it another way, per the definition of freedom, we never freely perform an action unless we desire to do it. Therefore, in some manner or another, Adam had to desire to fall, but obviously he could not have chosen this desire. Every effect has an efficient cause.


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## Skyler (Aug 22, 2009)

Confessor said:


> Skyler said:
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Well, it wasn't impossible for him to be tempted. Since he had both the ability to choose to sin and to choose not to sin, when temptation came, there was a clash of interests. So yes, he did have a desire to fall--but he had the ability to overcome that desire and chose not to.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Skyler said:


> So yes, he did have a desire to fall--but he had the ability to overcome that desire and chose not to.



I think this is at root an appeal to a libertarian notion of freedom. This can be shown by asking the following: Did he have a moral ability to overcome his desire to fall? If so, then how did he possibly fall? If not, then he had only a _counterfactual_ ability not to fall (i.e., if his desires had been different), not any kind of real or absolute ability not to fall.


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## Skyler (Aug 22, 2009)

Confessor said:


> Skyler said:
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> > So yes, he did have a desire to fall--but he had the ability to overcome that desire and chose not to.
> ...



So if person X has a real or absolute ability to do Y, he must of necessity do Y at some point or another?


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Skyler said:


> Confessor said:
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Not given the libertarian schema, but given the compatibilist schema, yes. An action can be carried out if and only if the agent has the natural ability to do the action and the desire to do it. If he has both, he'll do it; if he doesn't, he _can't_ do it.


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## toddpedlar (Aug 22, 2009)

Confessor said:


> Skyler said:
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> > So yes, he did have a desire to fall--but he had the ability to overcome that desire and chose not to.
> ...



Ben -

I think you're making too much of nothing.

Adam was created with the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. He chose upon temptation to cave. This does NOT mean he was, as unregenerate man is, unable not to sin. Adam was created with the ability to obey God's commands and to be confirmed in his state of innocence, and rewarded with eternal life. He failed that test - not for inability, but because he chose to disobey God. I'm not sure what you're going after with what Skyler said - his remark was perfectly reasonable.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> Confessor said:
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> > Skyler said:
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I have more work to do in defining and conceptualizing how "moral ability" operates. Thanks for your post, Todd.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Thanks, Todd, for getting across what I apparently failed miserably in doing.  It's difficult to discuss such weighty matters while also driving.



You're _driving_?


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## toddpedlar (Aug 22, 2009)

Confessor said:


> Joshua said:
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> > Thanks, Todd, for getting across what I apparently failed miserably in doing.  It's difficult to discuss such weighty matters while also driving.
> ...



He's got prehensile earlobes, so he doesn't need two hands to operate his i-Phone.


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## Confessor (Aug 22, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> Confessor said:
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## The Author of my Faith (Aug 25, 2009)

*Free Will*

So What is the Reformed View for fallen man. I am getting confused in certain things I read. I hear some say fallen man does not have free will. His will is enslaved to his sinful nature therefore any action is influenced by sin therefore his will is not "free will" but he is free to make choices according to the ability his nature enables him. 

Others say man is free and able to make free will choices and accountable to God. 

So is his will free or is it not?










Joshua said:


> TranZ4MR said:
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> > I don't believe anyone has ever had a free will including Adam and Eve.
> ...


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## A.J. (Aug 25, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> So What is the Reformed View for fallen man. I am getting confused in certain things I read. I hear some say fallen man does not have free will. His will is enslaved to his sinful nature therefore any action is influenced by sin therefore his will is not "free will" but he is free to make choices according to the ability his nature enables him.
> 
> Others say man is free and able to make free will choices and accountable to God.
> 
> So is his will free or is it not?



I think the Westminster Confession gives a thorough answer to your question. And this *is* the confessional Reformed view. 



> Chapter 9. Of Free Will.
> 
> 1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.a
> 
> ...


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## The Author of my Faith (Aug 25, 2009)

Joshua said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > So What is the Reformed View for fallen man. I am getting confused in certain things I read. I hear some say fallen man does not have free will. His will is enslaved to his sinful nature therefore any action is influenced by sin therefore his will is not "free will" but he is free to make choices according to the ability his nature enables him.
> ...





So then he does not have free will. If his will is limited it is not free then is it. A prisoner is free to walk about anywhere within the prison but he is still confined to the prison and cannot chose to walk outside the prison unless someone sets him free. 

So to say he is free when his freedom is depedent upon the other faculties such as his nature and desires then isn't his will subject to those faculties thus not being free??

I am just trying to make sense of this.


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## toddpedlar (Aug 25, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> Joshua said:
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> > His _freedom_ of will is a limited freedom, in that he's "free" to act as he so chooses; however, the truth is he will only choose that which is evil, because he is, by nature, totally depraved. On the other hand, Adam & Eve were _not_ sinful by nature. They were created upright, and inclined toward godliness. So there's a difference between Original Adam & Eve and all other people born to woman of man.
> ...



But there is no difference between will and desire. Will is not some autonomous thing within you which is opposed to desire. 

The example of a prisoner in prison is not apt because the constraint in prison is EXTERNAL to the prisoner. The prisoner is not free because the boundaries and limits are imposed by someone else.

In our case, WE are the only limitation to ourselves. Every single choice we make is free in that never is a decision made under compulsion. We ultimately do everything that we truly want to do - every decision is made (admittedly under different critiera depending on the circumstances) according to what we most want to do, and according to what we ultimately decide to do.

You are right when you say we are not free - but you are right only because you define freedom as autonomous freedom (meaning there is NO constraint)... but there is no such freedom. GOD HIMSELF is not free in that sense. He is every bit as much as we are constrained by His nature. We are as free as it is possible to be. (Arminian thought, though, wants to make us MORE free than it is possible to be, and even more free than God is)


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## The Author of my Faith (Aug 25, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > His _freedom_ of will is a limited freedom, in that he's "free" to act as he so chooses; however, the truth is he will only choose that which is evil, because he is, by nature, totally depraved. On the other hand, Adam & Eve were _not_ sinful by nature. They were created upright, and inclined toward godliness. So there's a difference between Original Adam & Eve and all other people born to woman of man.
> ...



But there is no difference between will and desire. Will is not some autonomous thing within you which is opposed to desire. 

The example of a prisoner in prison is not apt because the constraint in prison is EXTERNAL to the prisoner. The prisoner is not free because the boundaries and limits are imposed by someone else.

In our case, WE are the only limitation to ourselves. Every single choice we make is free in that never is a decision made under compulsion. We ultimately do everything that we truly want to do - every decision is made (admittedly under different critiera depending on the circumstances) according to what we most want to do, and according to what we ultimately decide to do.

You are right when you say we are not free - but you are right only because you define freedom as autonomous freedom (meaning there is NO constraint)... but there is no such freedom. GOD HIMSELF is not free in that sense. He is every bit as much as we are constrained by His nature. We are as free as it is possible to be. (Arminian thought, though, wants to make us MORE free than it is possible to be, and even more free than God is)[/QUOTE]

SO then we are not free. I feel this is a war on semantics. If man's will is contrained by his nature then it is not free will. Correct? I understand that a prisoner is contrained by outward. I get that part. I understand Adam had free will. But it seems i keep hearing "yes you have free will but it is contrained free will" Well that is not free will then. My brain is about to explode LOL!! 



-----Added 8/25/2009 at 03:41:41 EST-----



The Author of my Faith said:


> toddpedlar said:
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> > The Author of my Faith said:
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SO then we are not free. I feel this is a war on semantics. If man's will is contrained by his nature then it is not free will. Correct? I understand that a prisoner is contrained by outward. I get that part. I understand Adam had free will. But it seems i keep hearing "yes you have free will but it is contrained free will" Well that is not free will then. My brain is about to explode LOL!! 

[/QUOTE]

So is it safe to say that when we are Born Again we gain back our Free Will?


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## toddpedlar (Aug 25, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> SO then we are not free. I feel this is a war on semantics. If man's will is contrained by his nature then it is not free will. Correct? I understand that a prisoner is contrained by outward. I get that part. I understand Adam had free will. But it seems i keep hearing "yes you have free will but it is contrained free will" Well that is not free will then. My brain is about to explode LOL!!



In the sense of complete autonomy, i.e. that your will is governed by NOTHING, then that is correct. We do not have free will. But then neither does God.



> So is it safe to say that when we are Born Again we gain back our Free Will?



Absolutely not. We do not change one whit in regard to how free our will is. What changes in regeneration is our nature, and thereby what changes is that which governs our will. We are able to choose good, whereas previously we could do nothing but sin.


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## The Author of my Faith (Aug 25, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > SO then we are not free. I feel this is a war on semantics. If man's will is contrained by his nature then it is not free will. Correct? I understand that a prisoner is contrained by outward. I get that part. I understand Adam had free will. But it seems i keep hearing "yes you have free will but it is contrained free will" Well that is not free will then. My brain is about to explode LOL!!
> ...




So if I was trying to explain to somoene who is arminian what Free Will is and without trying to lose them in terminologies would I be safe to say to them "we do not have free will because our will is subject to our sinful nature and we can only do what our nature enables us to do"?


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## toddpedlar (Aug 25, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> toddpedlar said:
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You also should emphasize, I would think, that we are completely free to do whatever we actually want to do, and are never compelled to make decisions and do things that we don't actually want. Our choices are real. 

At the same time as WE are constrained by our nature, so too is God. this is also very important to emphasize. God is a perfectly pure spirit, perfectly holy and righteous. He CANNOT choose contrary to His nature. He always chooses that which is in accord with His attributes. His will is no more free than ours. He is constrained by His nature. 

This second point blows Arminians away all the time, and gives them at least some pause to consider how tightly they demand autonomous free will.


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## Webservant (Aug 25, 2009)

Joshua said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > So What is the Reformed View for fallen man. I am getting confused in certain things I read. I hear some say fallen man does not have free will. His will is enslaved to his sinful nature therefore any action is influenced by sin therefore his will is not "free will" but he is free to make choices according to the ability his nature enables him.
> ...


Hey Josh - I had this conversation with my pastor, and I made the remark that Adam and Eve were "perfectly able to obey" and he told me that I was incorrect, that if they were perfectly able to withstand and obey, they would have. If they were created _good_, my understanding is that God meant _GOOD_ - not kinda good, not ok - but *good*. If they were anything but perfect, God would not have called them good... right? What am I missing?


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## Webservant (Aug 25, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Webservant said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Josh - I had this conversation with my pastor, and I made the remark that Adam and Eve were "perfectly able to obey" and he told me that I was incorrect, that if they were perfectly able to withstand and obey, they would have. If they were created _good_, my understanding is that God meant _GOOD_ - not kinda good, not ok - but *good*. If they were anything but perfect, God would not have called them good... right? What am I missing?
> ...


LOL the last time I checked he still knew more than me... so he may have thought I was referring to immutability.


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## JennyG (Aug 25, 2009)

If you ask me, the real problem is with the human logical faculty.
It is inadequate to this purpose. 
No wonder you, Steve, think your brain is going to explode!
humanly speaking , I really doubt if the sum can be made to balance.

The best answer is given in the book of Job chapter 38-41.
Actually, when someone first told me that, I was very disappointed to find only a long disquisition on the wonders of Creation. What sort of answer is that!!!!
But the more you consider and meditate on it in your heart, the more you will find (if my experience is anything to go by) that it really does give the only answer to this and all other such conundrums of life and death.


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