# Decision, choose, receive....Jesus



## earl40 (Mar 17, 2010)

Two words that bug me (decision,choose) and a third one (receive) that can do the same if it is connected with the the first two.

When in church and the pastor says "believe in Jesus" I smile, but if he says something to the effect "If you never have received Jesus into your heart" knowing full well he means that you need to make an volitional choice I want to yell out that faith in Jesus is a gift from God and not of ourselves. Now many here think this is a rant...well yes it is, but I hear this in EVERY protestant church I attended over the years including PCA churches.

There I feel better. Brrrppp


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## PresbyDane (Mar 17, 2010)

Well both you and I know that belief in God is a gift from him, but at the same time he has called us to make a call to believe in Christ and be saved. like Paul says to the jailor in acts.
The news that faith is a gift from GOD really means the most to a believer that is afflicted and in doubt, because then it is the news that even the faith is something God does.
To one that is not afflicted it only seems confusing, and I believe that we need not bring this up ahead of time, God will save him despite of wrongfully conceived theological convictions, because as you and I say, God is the one that saves, despite of what the individual person thinks.


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## Jack K (Mar 17, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Two words that bug me (decision,choose) and a third one (receive) that can do the same if it is connected with the the first two.
> 
> When in church and the pastor says "believe in Jesus" I smile, but if he says something to the effect "If you never have received Jesus into your heart" knowing full well he means that you need to make an volitional choice I want to yell out that faith in Jesus is a gift from God and not of ourselves. Now many here think this is a rant...well yes it is, but I hear this in EVERY protestant church I attended over the years including PCA churches.
> 
> There I feel better. Brrrppp



Right you are. "Decisionism" is a default doctrine in the American evangelical church. Many people, even pastors, accept it and its language without ever thinking it through.

I fight it every time my church tries to cooperate with other churches in the children's programs I oversee. "What? You don't want to present the gospel?" they say when I object to an altar call inviting kids to say a prayer and "accept Jesus into your heart." I patiently explain that I love the gospel, have a deep desire to see kids converted, but don't believe such an invitation has much to do with either the gospel or conversion. It can be very harmful, actually.

So I explain. Again and again. I feel I've gotten pretty good at it. It's hard to fight an accepted wisdom that's been entrenched now for more than a century, and even in my small town where I can personally know many of the pastors, progress is slow. But some seem to be starting to understand. They've noticed the "converts" from their altar calls seldom become active church members. They've read passages, like John 3, that clearly say we can't conjure up our own conversion. Some people _do_ listen when their error is pointed out clearly and patiently.

Brother, your rant is correct. I would encourage you to voice your concerns and to practice presenting them in a in a manner that people will listen to, which for me has taken significant preparation. You already have one appreciative listener here.


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## MarieP (Mar 17, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Two words that bug me (decision,choose) and a third one (receive) that can do the same if it is connected with the the first two.
> 
> When in church and the pastor says "believe in Jesus" I smile, but if he says something to the effect "If you never have received Jesus into your heart" knowing full well he means that you need to make an volitional choice I want to yell out that faith in Jesus is a gift from God and not of ourselves. Now many here think this is a rant...well yes it is, but I hear this in EVERY protestant church I attended over the years including PCA churches.
> 
> There I feel better. Brrrppp


 
Deut 30
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Paul uses this text in Romans 10
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”


Joshua 24
4 “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Isaiah 55
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.
5 Surely you shall call a nation you do not know,
And nations who do not know you shall run to you,
Because of the LORD your God,
And the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you.”
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon. 

John 1
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 2:41
1 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Our Old Covenant counterparts couldn't choose to forsake their idolatry apart from the sovereign grace of God any more than an unregenerate man can receive Christ. And yet God commands them to choose life. The Confessions describe our coming to Christ as being "most willingly" (and of course by God's grace.). No one is drug kicking and screaming into heaven. I chose Christ, but only because He first chose me.

I once held to your position, Earl, and I marveled at all the closet Arminians! But then a faithful brother graciously pointed out to me that God commands things in Scripture that we as good Calviniists know that we can't do apart from the sovereign grace of God.

He even says in Ezekiel 18
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

And yet we know Ezekiel 36 says
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.


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## raekwon (Mar 17, 2010)

MarieP said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Two words that bug me (decision,choose) and a third one (receive) that can do the same if it is connected with the the first two.
> ...


 
Yup.


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## MarieP (Mar 17, 2010)

For the record, I am not defending the abuse of Revelation 3:20 or the decisionalism of today that merely calls sinners to tip their hat to Jesus and get their ticket punched for heaven. But I am saying that there is a decision, a choice involved. Natural man always, apart from the saving grace of God, willfully chooses to reject Christ. When God by His Spirit sovereignly awakens one of His elect, they freely accept Christ as He is offered in the Gospel and repent of their sins and choose the way of life.


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## rbcbob (Mar 17, 2010)

John 1:12 But as many as *received* (λαμβάνω the verb here is aorist/*active*/indicative) Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
This receiving is something that the person is actively doing. Now theologically we understand that God has already moved the heart. Nevertheless the person really is receiving Christ.


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## Jack K (Mar 17, 2010)

There _is_ a receiving, a choosing, an accepting. Of course. It's all over the Bible.

But I appreciate what Earl is saying because the altar call system so widely in use today abuses the biblical concept of accepting Christ and choosing to live for him. It turns this into an easy formula that, if completed correctly with a sincere attitude, is supposed to assure the convert he's done what it takes and God will surely respond. It emphasizes quickly won numbers over the hard work of discipleship. It tends to confuse fear of punishment with true sorrow for sin. To often, it barely touches on the Spirit's tools for bringing repentance (the preaching of the gospel of Jesus), preferring to focus on man-made techniques of revivalism.

Absolutely we must choose to serve God. And yes, Jesus invites us to come to him. But this is to be accompanied by a Spirit-worked repentance and faith that includes deep sorrow for sin and great joy in the gospel, leading to radical transformation. The "invite Jesus into your heart" stuff Earl was ranting against is usually more an attempt to take people through motions that will conjure up a less messy salvation that's more neatly packaged.


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## Steve Curtis (Mar 18, 2010)

> *They've read passages, like John 3, that clearly say we can't conjure up our own conversion.* Some people _do_ listen when their error is pointed out clearly and patiently.



I see that being where the lines really get blurred. Most of the preachers I hear advocating decisionalism actually use John 3 as a proof text! That passage is distorted to say, "You don't get it, Nicodemus, because you haven't been 'born again.' So get born again - what are you waiting for?!?" I, too, attempt to point out the exegetical errors "clearly and patiently." But it is all too often like trying to herd cats.
Of course, it is true that there are ample verses that indicate we must "choose, receive, etc." and we know that such active responses are only possible _after_ the sovereign work of God. These verses _do_ stress the person's role. A preacher who preaches these passages and fails to include the sovereign "pre-decision" work of God is not preaching the _whole_ truth, but he is preaching truth insofar as he goes.
My greatest concern is with the terrible way in which much of contemporary evangelicalism interprets the passages that aren't even secondary decisional passages, such as John 3 and Revelations 3:20. To preach that these are discussing the person's "role" in salvation is categorically _not_ preaching the truth. This is, I think, far more harmful because it sets a hermeneutical precedent that is not easily set right.


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## earl40 (Mar 18, 2010)

Jack K said:


> There _is_ a receiving, a choosing, an accepting. Of course. It's all over the Bible.



Would you say any of those passages have to do with "choosing" as the moment we are justified via faith?


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## DeborahtheJudge (Mar 18, 2010)

kainos01 said:


> > *They've read passages, like John 3, that clearly say we can't conjure up our own conversion.* Some people _do_ listen when their error is pointed out clearly and patiently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This totally happened to me! We read John 3 and I said, "You can't birth yourself" and the leader went right into talking about 'getting born again'!  And I've seen the revelations 3:20 passage used in similar ways as well.


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## Jack K (Mar 18, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > There _is_ a receiving, a choosing, an accepting. Of course. It's all over the Bible.
> ...



We can quibble about the extact moment of justification, which is solely an act of God, but these passages _are_ about the larger picture of becomming a Christian. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" is about becoming a Christian. Paul's appeal to the Philippian jailer to believe involved a choice on the jailer's part, and he became a Christian that night.

Earl, I think you can admit this and still hold to your original rant, which is in essence good and insightful. Here's Berkhof: "While God works alone in regeneration and man is entirely passive, man cooperates with God in conversion. That man is active in conversion is quite evident in such passages as Isa. 55:7; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11; Acts 2:38; 17:30, and others. But this activity in man always results from a previous work of God in man."

The problem with most of the "pray Jesus into your heart" appeals today is they suggest if _we_ take action God is obliged to respond. In fact, it is God who takes action and we who respond. You recognize the difference, and this is why I like what you wrote. But it doesn't mean no choices exist at all. Our saving faith is conscious, volitional, even eager. And it involves intentional choices. I think that's what some of the other posters wanted to point out.


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## Rich Koster (Mar 18, 2010)

The traditions of Finney live on


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## earl40 (Mar 18, 2010)

Jack K said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Jack K said:
> ...


 
I guess I understand where you are coming from. What I think is getting me is that "choice" is nowhere in the bible so far as a man can sit in a pew and choose Jesus. Yes we do believe but I read somewhere that we didn't "choose" Jesus but He "chose" us. Once again I do understand what you are saying, it is just that faith does not come by us "choosing" Jesus or making a "decision" at all. To even suggest such is simply not biblical. I think the problem is the word "receive" because of our religious culture and how people do not understand that someone can "receive" something with out any active participation on their part.

I don't want to "quibble" but beveling Jesus is not something we can do by "choice". If it were so Ephesians would be wrong. Faith is supernaturally given and is not of ourselves.


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## MarieP (Mar 18, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...


 
How would you explain the texts I gave in my first post? Also, in your definition, what does it mean to repent and believe? More specifically, what happened when you came to faith in Christ. Did you not find yourself desiring to follow Christ and walk in His ways and trust in Him for salvation? Did you not willingly lay your sins on Christ and receive His righteousness and die to yourself and take up your cross and follow Him? Did you not look up, with your own eyes, to Christ to be healed?


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## MarieP (Mar 18, 2010)

Although Wesley was no Calvinist, I believe he paints a Biblical (and Reformed, I would add!) picture of conversion in his hymn "And Can it Be"

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.


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## rbcbob (Mar 18, 2010)

Good observation Marie. Maybe Charles didn't know he was a Calvinist!


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 18, 2010)

I think we need to be careful to understand that the Reformed confessions do not teach that man has no volition. They teach that there is no such thing as man acting with arbitrary volition. Man chooses freely according to his nature and the nature of a regenerate man is to choose Christ:



> I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.
> 
> II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
> 
> ...


I was just listening to Ligon Duncan on WCF IX the other day tell a story of a man who came to a Presbyterian minister in the 19th century and was incensed:

"You Calvinists are the most contradictory people in the world. You constantly tell me to have faith in Christ but believe that man is incapable of choosing apart from God's grace."

The minister replied: "I don't know what the fuss is all about, if you believe you can put your trust in Christ then I would suggest you do so."

To which the man replied: "I've been trying for days and I cannot."

"That, sir, is a different matter, and I suggest that you and I take that to the Lord."

We never preach to people with the announcement of the Gospel that they cannot believe the Gospel. We leave such things to God. His Word has the effect upon men that, when the Scriptures are proclaimed to believe upon Christ that the will of some men is converted to produce that which they would be incapable of doing in themselves.


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## earl40 (Mar 19, 2010)

MarieP said:


> Although Wesley was no Calvinist, I believe he paints a Biblical (and Reformed, I would add!) picture of conversion in his hymn "And Can it Be"
> 
> Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
> Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
> ...



Is this a song on the faith that was given John after he believed? I ask this because it can appear one might be advocating that following Jesus and keeping His commandments are required to become justified. Which I don't think John did here. What a stubborn man he was and we are. 

The confusion arises in the misconception on how we "get" or "receive" faith. I was thinking about this as I was driving to work and thought of the question.....Did you choose to believe the sky is blue? Or did you believe that it was when you leaned what the color blue was and saw the sky was indeed that color? In a way believing Jesus is the same thing.....the scales were lifted and you believed in Him but you did not choose because you could not not believe in Him. Just like today, you could not not believe the sky is blue because you now see. It is a natural "thing" you can do and it is impossible for you to turn it off no matter what you do.


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## earl40 (Mar 19, 2010)

MarieP said:


> For the record, I am not defending the abuse of Revelation 3:20 or the decisionalism of today that merely calls sinners to tip their hat to Jesus and get their ticket punched for heaven. But I am saying that there is a decision, a choice involved. Natural man always, apart from the saving grace of God, willfully chooses to reject Christ. When God by His Spirit sovereignly awakens one of His elect, they freely accept Christ as He is offered in the Gospel and repent of their sins and choose the way of life.


 
So they "choose the way of life"? Now I do believe you are not saying man who is born dead and in sin can choose, but I think you may be alluding to men can follow The Lord by obedience or be disobedient in sin (as per the passages you cite). I am speaking of justification not sanctification. We can choose to follow God after we believe and that choice flows from the ability in that once you do have faith one can either sin or not. Impossible if you do not already posses faith.

Faith is not of yourself, but is a gift of God that He gives, so that we can not boast that we "chose" Him or "decided" to believe.

Did you decide the sky is blue or choose to believe such?


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## Scott1 (Mar 19, 2010)

DeborahtheJudge said:


> kainos01 said:
> 
> 
> > > *They've read passages, like John 3, that clearly say we can't conjure up our own conversion.* Some people _do_ listen when their error is pointed out clearly and patiently.
> ...


 
When you look at the text in context, right before John 3:16 and after you realize that our Lord was speaking of something impossible with men, but possible with God only. The "the world" meant especially the Gentile world, e.g. all sorts of people in the world...

This common passage, putting Scripture in its context and in the context of the rest of Scripture, helped me greatly understand the doctrines of grace.



> John 3
> 
> 1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
> 
> ...


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## MarieP (Mar 19, 2010)

earl40 said:


> MarieP said:
> 
> 
> > Although Wesley was no Calvinist, I believe he paints a Biblical (and Reformed, I would add!) picture of conversion in his hymn "And Can it Be"
> ...



I'm afraid you've lost me here...how could this verse be anything but conversion? The believer is not fast bound in sin and nature's night. Our heart is no longer chained by our sins and by the devil.

Whenever the Gospel goes out in Scripture, people are commanded to do something. In Acts 16. when the Philippian jailer asks, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved," the answer isn't "Do? You can't do anything to be saved!" The answer is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." 

How does Jesus answer the Rich Young Ruler in Luke 18? "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” Was Jesus teaching works righteousness? Of course not! He was pointing out that the man had the idol of possessions in his life that needed to be dealt with.

And Luke 13:24 says, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

Acts 2:21 and Rom 10:14 say "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Acts 3:19 says, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

The Scripture also talks about "obeying the Gospel" (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)

Acts 5:32 says, "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

In Acts 11:18, when the Jews hear of the salvation of Cornelius' household, they conclude that "God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."



earl40 said:


> The confusion arises in the misconception on how we "get" or "receive" faith. I was thinking about this as I was driving to work and thought of the question.....Did you choose to believe the sky is blue? Or did you believe that it was when you leaned what the color blue was and saw the sky was indeed that color? In a way believing Jesus is the same thing.....the scales were lifted and you believed in Him but you did not choose because you could not not believe in Him. Just like today, you could not not believe the sky is blue because you now see. It is a natural "thing" you can do and it is impossible for you to turn it off no matter what you do.


 
Just as it is God who grants repentance unto life, and yet we are spoken of as having repented, so too faith, while a gift of God, is something that we actually do. Willingly do.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------




earl40 said:


> MarieP said:
> 
> 
> > For the record, I am not defending the abuse of Revelation 3:20 or the decisionalism of today that merely calls sinners to tip their hat to Jesus and get their ticket punched for heaven. But I am saying that there is a decision, a choice involved. Natural man always, apart from the saving grace of God, willfully chooses to reject Christ. When God by His Spirit sovereignly awakens one of His elect, they freely accept Christ as He is offered in the Gospel and repent of their sins and choose the way of life.
> ...



I was born under a blue sky but I naturally wanted the sky to be orange and refused to acknowledge its blueness. I indeed could not and would not acknowledge its blueness. The orange colored glasses were solidly adhered to my face (I was proud of them too....polished them every day!). Then, one day, I heard that whoever believes that the sky is blue will be blessed. As I heard this, God took off my orange glasses, and I saw how gloriously blue the sky was, and I liked it!! I cried aloud, "Lord, I believe the sky is BLUE!!!! I want to live in light of that reality every day!" God blotted out all my lies of the sky being orange and then granted me the status of being a perfect blue-sky-acknowledger. And I find that my heart loves that blue sky more and more every day.

(The analogy breaks down somewhat in the area of faith/works distinction, but that's not my point...)

Still wondering how you would explain the verses I cited....

Here is another to ponder

Proverbs 1
20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “ How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28 “ Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
 And be filled to the full with their own fancies.
32 For the turning away of the simple will slay them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 But whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
And will be secure, without fear of evil.”


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## earl40 (Mar 20, 2010)

MarieP said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > MarieP said:
> ...


 


Just one thing I would like to make sure we agree on before we go any further. I say one cannot "receive" Jesus by "choice" or "decision" and you are saying a person can. Is that right?


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## MarieP (Mar 20, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Just one thing I would like to make sure we agree on before we go any further. I say one cannot "receive" Jesus by "choice" or "decision" and you are saying a person can. Is that right?


 
A person can (and indeed will!) when God by His special grace reveals Christ to them, yes. Without that special grace, a person will choose to reject Christ every time.


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## earl40 (Mar 20, 2010)

MarieP said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Just one thing I would like to make sure we agree on before we go any further. I say one cannot "receive" Jesus by "choice" or "decision" and you are saying a person can. Is that right?
> ...



Thank you. I agree that a person will indeed reject Jesus every time without special grace.

My contention is that ...."8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves (such as a choice or decision), it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Is this not clear?


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## MarieP (Mar 20, 2010)

earl40 said:


> MarieP said:
> 
> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...


 
Yes, Ephesians 2:8 does say that grace, salvation, and faith is a gift of God and not of ourselves, and therefore we have no ground for boasting. God is the one who has granted us faith and repentance. He is the one who opened our eyes and made us alive in Christ, which we could never do on our own because we were bound by our sin and captive to the devil to do his will. The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be! But we are not sticks floating down a stream or puppets on a string (which is ironically what Arminians accuse us of believing). Luke records in two places (Acts 11:23 and 13:43) that when the grace of God was seen, they were encouraged to continue in it! There is something we indeed "do" on our part. In response to God, yes, but we are not passive in either our conversion or in our sanctification, which is just as much by the grace of God.


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## Skyler (Mar 20, 2010)

If, while we are a slave to sin, we make choices to sin, it makes sense that when we are a slave to God, we make choices to do good.

The "choice" to have faith was a choice, yes--but it happened because, and only because, God freed us from the bondage of sin and bound us to himself. It was at that point inevitable, as choosing to sin had been before.

An important distinction here is between "regeneration" and "believing in Christ". We are regenerated/born again before we can believe in Christ--we can't just lump the two together.


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## MarieP (Mar 20, 2010)

2 Timothy 1:12
for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day

Note that Paul doesn't say "for I know that God believed for me and made a commitment for me" In the broader sense, yes it was God who procured this for Paul, and therefore he says in Eph. that there is no room for boasting. But did Paul believe and commit His life and cause to Christ? Sure he did!


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## earl40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Skyler said:


> If, while we are a slave to sin, we make choices to sin, it makes sense that when we are a slave to God, we make choices to do good.
> 
> The "choice" to have faith was a choice, yes--but it happened because, and only because, God freed us from the bondage of sin and bound us to himself. It was at that point inevitable, as choosing to sin had been before.
> 
> An important distinction here is between "regeneration" and "believing in Christ". We are regenerated/born again before we can believe in Christ--we can't just lump the two together.


 
True we are regenerated before we believe but this is the logical order of things not temporal. That is my point in that if there is a period of time between regeneration and us believing then we could say a choice was made by our selves to believe. Granted many would say it was by His grace, but if so, it would be against what Ephesians says that faith a gift and NOT of ourselves. No matter what we think the relation between what faith is and how we get it the passage says it is not of ourselves.


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## MarieP (Mar 20, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> > If, while we are a slave to sin, we make choices to sin, it makes sense that when we are a slave to God, we make choices to do good.
> ...


 
2 Cor. 6:1- "We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain."

2 Cor. 8
6 So we urged Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also complete this grace in you as well. 7 But as you abound in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us—see that you abound in this grace also.

2 Cor. 9
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

The fact that God has shown grace to us does not mean we are inactive. I see commands in Scripture to "believe" and "strive to enter" and "choose life" and "obey the Gospel." We must not neglect the fact that these commands are in our Bibles.

Paul understood that men have a conscience that must be addressed.

2 Cor. 4
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

And I don't think anyone is denying the distinction between the logical and temporal order of faith and regeneration. There is no such thing as a believing person who isn't regenerated and a regenerated person who isn't believing.


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## earl40 (Mar 20, 2010)

MarieP said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Skyler said:
> ...


 
I think I can see where the confusion is arising. The ability to believe in God we both agree is from God alone via regeneration. Now the faith we get or "receive" is also from God alone as Ephesians points out clearly. Now can faith or belief in Jesus become stronger in us by doing His will and suffering with Him....of course it can which I think you would agree with. So if we "choose" to follow Jesus by obeying Him our faith becomes stronger but if we "choose" to sin this show that we are not being faithful when we make a "decisions" not to follow Him. Faith, which is given to us by God, can and is indeed increased or decreased by a volitional "choice" or "decisions". I say this with the mind that Ephesians says that faith is NOT of our selves (choice or decisions) but is a gift of God we "receive" not of works so that we may boast.

This analogy helps.....Did you decide or choose the sky is blue? No, you simply believe it because you have eyes to see it and you know what the color blue is. Faith in God is the same way. You believe because your scales have been removed from your eyes and faith is a natural connection given to you by God. Think about it for a second.....Did you decide or choose to believe the sky is blue? (even the question sounds silly) The same can be said about faith in The Lord Jesus....did you decide or choose to have faith in Him as if the was a moment in time where you went, eenie meenie miny mo I choose the very best one and you are it. This is the correct presupposition if one insist that one can "choose" or make a "decision" to believe in Jesus.


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## MarieP (Mar 20, 2010)

earl40 said:


> This analogy helps.....Did you decide or choose the sky is blue? No, you simply believe it because you have eyes to see it and you know what the color blue is. Faith in God is the same way. You believe because your scales have been removed from your eyes and faith is a natural connection given to you by God. Think about it for a second.....Did you decide or choose to believe the sky is blue? (even the question sounds silly) The same can be said about faith in The Lord Jesus....did you decide or choose to have faith in Him as if the was a moment in time where you went, eenie meenie miny mo I choose the very best one and you are it. This is the correct presupposition if one insist that one can "choose" or make a "decision" to believe in Jesus.


 
Ok...I agree with the statement "You believe because your scales have been removed from your eyes and faith is a natural connection given to you by God. "

But it seems that if you say faith is volitional in the entire Christian life, it is also volitional at the beginning of it.

I think there's an issue with the blue sky analogy.

I see the primary issue not as "This person doesn't know that the sky is blue" but "This person doesn't want to acknowledge that the sky is blue nor live in light of it"

Romans 1 says
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 

Matthew 28
11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Acts 4 says
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.” 

Paul is able to say in Acts 26
24 Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!”
25 But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”

James 2 says
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

(It just struck me that it says do you *want* to know. He's not asking if the man knows this, that faith without works is dead, but if he *wants* to know it (which is more than giving mental assent but also embracing it as truth.)

---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------




earl40 said:


> The same can be said about faith in The Lord Jesus....did you decide or choose to have faith in Him as if the was a moment in time where you went, eenie meenie miny mo I choose the very best one and you are it. This is the correct presupposition if one insist that one can "choose" or make a "decision" to believe in Jesus.


 
First, I am not saying that we can choose the hour of our conversion. That's God's sovereign work. But there is a weighing in the balance of things whenever one comes to faith in Christ.

The rich young ruler knew what he needed to do, and he refused to give up his idols. In Acts 2, not all those who asked "What must we do to be saved?" received the word gladly.

Jesus explains in Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.


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## MarieP (Mar 21, 2010)

This morning I thought of a verse from Hebrews 11. Faith is active throughout, but I think this one is particularly pertinent.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 *choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin*, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.


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## earl40 (Mar 21, 2010)

MarieP said:


> This morning I thought of a verse from Hebrews 11. Faith is active throughout, but I think this one is particularly pertinent.
> 
> 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 *choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin*, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.


 
"By faith" Moses chose to follow God I agree. This makes my point in that Moses HAD faith in God which he exercised. This was exactly what I posted about that we can be faithful or faithless. 

Let me ask a quick question....Do you still have faith in Jesus when you sin?
How you answer this will clear up what the essence of faith is.


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## jogri17 (Mar 21, 2010)

Just because we know that sinners are in bondage to sin and have no hope unless they are monergistically regenerated, that does not mean we are obligated to preach that to them when preaching evangelistically. I may prefer some terms over others but at the end of the day The offer to repentance is given to all the world reprobate and elect alive. The universal offer is apart of the universal offer of the Love of God.


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## earl40 (Mar 21, 2010)

Beliefs & Choices: Are Beliefs Like Actions? Why Arriving at a Belief is Not Like Engaging in an Action Here is an article written by an atheist though I may not agree with all his points he makes some good ones such as this...."The act of concluding something isn't a choice of a belief — here, the term is being used in the sense of a logical result a reasoning process, not simply a "decision." For example, when you conclude or realize that a table is in the room, you aren't "choosing" to believe that there is a table in the room. Assuming that you, like most people, value the information provided by your senses, your conclusion is a logical result of what you know. After that, you make no extra, identifiable steps to "choose" to believe that there is a table there. "


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## py3ak (Mar 21, 2010)

Earl, if I may interject, it seems to me that you are treating faith as though the idea of faith, or belief, is exhausted by recognition or assent. But there is an element of _fiducia_ as well, a trusting, a resting, a committing of oneself. When I believe in Christ, I recognize Him as the Saviour of the world, to be sure; but beyond that, I actually entrust my salvation to Him.


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## earl40 (Mar 21, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Earl, if I may interject, it seems to me that you are treating faith as though the idea of faith, or belief, is exhausted by recognition or assent. But there is an element of _fiducia_ as well, a trusting, a resting, a committing of oneself. When I believe in Christ, I recognize Him as the Saviour of the world, to be sure; but beyond that, I actually entrust my salvation to Him.



I hear you. Of course I would include all three points that you point out though and I am not trying to conveying what you think I am. Maybe I can add that the table in the room is a functional piece of furniture one can use.


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## py3ak (Mar 21, 2010)

If you're trying to convey this, then I'm fairly sure we are all in agreement:


> I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.


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## earl40 (Mar 21, 2010)

py3ak said:


> If you're trying to convey this, then I'm fairly sure we are all in agreement:
> 
> 
> > I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, *being made willing* by His grace.



As long as we understand that we are regenerated before we believe in logical order and not temporal.


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## py3ak (Mar 21, 2010)

A cause either precedes or is simultaneous with its effects.


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## earl40 (Mar 22, 2010)

py3ak said:


> A cause either precedes or is simultaneous with its effects.


 
I am interested to hear any thoughts you have on "choosing" and "deciding" to believe in Jesus when one is converted?


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## Bern (Mar 22, 2010)

To go back a few posts:



> John 1:12 But as many as received (λαμβάνω the verb here is aorist/active/indicative) Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
> This receiving is something that the person is actively doing. Now theologically we understand that God has already moved the heart. Nevertheless the person really is receiving Christ.



Receiving can never be equated to saying a superstitious prayer then being declared born again. The real issue that is overlooked by the majority of western Christianity today is the character of God. People don't know anything about this God they have supposedly sinned against, and therefore they do not regard sin as important. They do not realise that God is infinitely holy and perfect in every way. It is not clear to them that they must forsake their sin, neither is it clear why they must forsake it. Receiving Jesus is believing what He said and trusting in Him alone for salvation. Accepting His message that we have rebelled against the perfect Creator and all that is left for us outside of Him is wrath.

All this decisionism makes me sick.... having said that, I think it is important that we still make a clear offer of the gospel that people can repsond to. I'm not saying I agree with alter calls because I don't.... but I do think that some calvinists are so preoccupied with God's sovereignty that it becomes fatalsim. Just my experience.


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## earl40 (Mar 22, 2010)

If I say that belief is involuntary, what I would like to say is that we cannot “choose” to believe something against the evidence or that we could not believe something we know is true based on good evidence. The latter situation is exactly what happens to us when our eyes are opened and our ears hear from regeneration. We are now able to discern spiritual realities with our new birth, and thus faith in God is a natural gift which is from Him and not of our natural fallen nature.


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## MarieP (Mar 22, 2010)

earl40 said:


> If I say that belief is involuntary, what I would like to say is that we cannot “choose” to believe something against the evidence or that we could not believe something we know is true based on good evidence. The latter situation is exactly what happens to us when our eyes are opened and our ears hear from regeneration. We are now able to discern spiritual realities with our new birth, and thus faith in God is a natural gift which is from Him and not of our natural fallen nature.


 
But you haven't dealt with the fact that the unregenerate are actively suppressing the truth. They KNOW that God is one day coming to judge the world in righteousness but they refuse to believe. Belief is not just mere intellectual assent to something. There is the faith of demons, and there is the faith of Christians, as James says. Yes faith is a gift of God that God grants to us sovereignly. No, we can't decide the hour of our conversion, but when God grants those gifts of faith and repentance, there is a decision involved in that we willfully take up our cross and follow Christ. We believe, which is more than mere intellectual assent.


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## py3ak (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm not sure what you're looking for, Earl. God's power is showed in regeneration in that a dead person is raised to life; or again, in that a hostile person becomes a willing subject. It is a remarkable instance of His omnipotence, not that He causes belief to "happen" to people against their will, but rather that His chosen become willing in the day that He exercises His power. Paul was not unwilling to acknowledge Jesus as Lord when the Lord appeared to him on his way to Damascus; but that appearance, and the power exerted in Paul's heart made him willing, where he wasn't before. Again, since faith involves _fiducia_, it is not exhausted by _notitia_ and _assensus_.


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## MarieP (Mar 22, 2010)

earl40 said:


> We are now able to discern spiritual realities with our new birth, and thus faith in God is a natural gift which is from Him and not of our natural fallen nature.


 
Agreed in that is not an act of our fallen natures but of our spiritually awakened natures

Buy do you believe repentance is just as much of a gift as faith? Do we volitionally repent?


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## earl40 (Mar 22, 2010)

MarieP said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > We are now able to discern spiritual realities with our new birth, and thus faith in God is a natural gift which is from Him and not of our natural fallen nature.
> ...


 
So did our "spiritually awakened natures" generate faith? This would imply a temporal time period between regeneration and faith. In other words, there would be true seekers out there looking for God.

I would think that repentance is part of true belief and yes we can choose to repent or not, like we can choose to believe to be faithful or not to God after we receive faith.

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------




py3ak said:


> I'm not sure what you're looking for, Earl. God's power is showed in regeneration in that a dead person is raised to life; or again, in that a hostile person becomes a willing subject. It is a remarkable instance of His omnipotence, not that He causes belief to "happen" to people against their will, but rather that His chosen become willing in the day that He exercises His power. Paul was not unwilling to acknowledge Jesus as Lord when the Lord appeared to him on his way to Damascus; but that appearance, and the power exerted in Paul's heart made him willing, where he wasn't before. Again, since faith involves _fiducia_, it is not exhausted by _notitia_ and _assensus_.



My contention is that He causes belief to "happen" to people who are willing. So did you "choose" or "decide" the sky is blue? Or this example "If you realize that a child is about to fall into water which they don't see, no extra steps are needed to believe that the child is in danger. You don't "choose" to believe this, it simply because your belief due to the force of the facts in front of you."

Also can you explain to me how someone can assent and not trust in Jesus. If there is a missing trust in Him I think there would be a lack of assent. I have heard the "chair" analogy before in how one must sit in it (trust) to show assent is present. That is a good one, but how much trust is required to be justified? That is like asking how much faith is required to be justified knowing it is God who gives some people more faith than others. They BOTH have faith that justifies by His grace Who is the author and finisher of such.


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## MarieP (Mar 22, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Also can you explain to me how someone can assent and not trust in Jesus. If there is a missing trust in Him I think there would be a lack of assent.


 
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,* who suppress the truth in unrighteousness*, 19 *because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.* 20 *For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse*, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 *But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away*. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 *But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. *

Luke 13
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 *“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. *25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, *‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ *and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘*We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ *27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 

Matthew 7
21 *“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.* 22 Many will say to Me in that day,* ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ *23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 28
11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Acts 4
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? *For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.* 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

Acts 26
24 Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!”
25 But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 *King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”*
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for *those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,* 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 

Hebrews 11
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, *and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
*

James 2
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. *Even the demons believe—and tremble! *20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

There is a belief/faith that is mere assent that falls short of genuine saving faith. God can also work great things through those who are not converted. I've known people who could quote you the Bible, Reformed theology, presupp apologetics who have proven to be reprobate and now no longer walk with the Lord.


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## py3ak (Mar 22, 2010)

It would appear that we are talking at cross purposes.

You contend that God causes belief to happen to those who are willing. Willing what or to what? I'm not persuaded that any of the analogies you've mentioned so far have been helpful or illuminating. But consider again what was quoted from the Confession: in effectual calling, God so works that people come (which definitely includes believing) most freely: as God's grace has made them willing, they choose to do so. It is therefore not confessional to argue _against_ a volitional element in faith. 

You might find these old threads to be of some help:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f50/clarkian-knowledge-archetypal-ectypal-theology-20450/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f30/joh...ential-calvinism-29884/index2.html#post373584


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## earl40 (Mar 22, 2010)

py3ak said:


> It would appear that we are talking at cross purposes.
> 
> You contend that God causes belief to happen to those who are willing. Willing what or to what? I'm not persuaded that any of the analogies you've mentioned so far have been helpful or illuminating. But consider again what was quoted from the Confession: in effectual calling, God so works that people come (which definitely includes believing) most freely: as God's grace has made them willing, they choose to do so. It is therefore not confessional to argue _against_ a volitional element in faith.
> 
> ...


 
I appreciate your understanding of the confessional statement makes what I am suggesting wrong. Now from my current viewpoint you must advocate that believers "chose" and "decided" to have faith in Jesus while as yet not believing. Once again I am speaking of the initial element of receiving faith not the exercise of it after it is there. As it is written " 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, *as God has allotted to each a measure of faith*." So just from this one verse we see that it is God Who allots faith and the amount one receives. How can we say it is by our volition we *get* faith when it clearly say God is the One Who gives it.


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## py3ak (Mar 22, 2010)

Earl, who has said that it is by our own volition that we get faith? And again, God "causes 'belief' to happen to those who are willing" - what or to what?


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## earl40 (Mar 22, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Earl, who has said that it is by our own volition that we get faith? And again, God "causes 'belief' to happen to those who are willing" - what or to what?


 
What or to what? I don't catch you here.

Also there are various posts within this thread that say we "choose" to believe.


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## earl40 (Mar 23, 2010)

py3ak said:


> It would appear that we are talking at cross purposes.
> 
> You contend that God causes belief to happen to those who are willing.


 
No, I am contending that God gives people faith by His volition not theirs. I am not saying that people do not believe in Jesus, but I am saying that the belief in Jesus (faith) is not a decision one chooses or decides to have.


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## Bern (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I remember reading a spurgeon sermon/ letter once where he said that at his conversion he believed he was choosing to put his faith in Christ once he saw the truth, but after years as a Christian he could then see that God arranged his situation so that he would have no choice but to believe. Unfortunately I can't remember which of his writings I found that in.

From mans perspective at the time of conversion it appears to be a choice that involves a surrenderring of the will, but in reality it is a God wrought change in the heart.


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## jayce475 (Mar 23, 2010)

Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but I think that Earl's position is not necessarily against the confession. Faith is a gift of God in the sense of Him giving it to us unconditionally and irresistibly. The necessary repentance that accompanies faith is an evangelical grace that is also given by God. Regeneration, defined as the point in time that God changes a person, necessarily takes place before conversion logically, and we all agree that it is fully monergistic and without any active participation on the part of the believer. Based on the scriptures and the WCF, we are also necessarily persuaded that the acts of the believe possessing true saving faith and repenting are also monergistic. However at the same time, believing and repenting are active actions that will always be performed by a person who has been regenerated. Therefore, believing and repenting are both active as well as monergistic. To suggest that they are passive would be fatalistic while suggesting that they are synergistic undermines God's election and irresistible grace. What exactly does "volition" mean? Wiki says that it is "the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action". If calling believing and repenting volitional means that they are active, then I absolutely agree. If it also includes the idea of synergism, then it's unreformed.


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## MarieP (Mar 23, 2010)

Bern said:


> I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I remember reading a spurgeon sermon/ letter once where he said that at his conversion he believed he was choosing to put his faith in Christ once he saw the truth, but after years as a Christian he could then see that God arranged his situation so that he would have no choice but to believe. Unfortunately I can't remember which of his writings I found that in.
> 
> From mans perspective at the time of conversion it appears to be a choice that involves a surrenderring of the will, but in reality it is a God wrought change in the heart.


 
The problem is finding out which ones he *doesn't* mention both. He preached the free offer of the Gospel/responsibility of man liberally *and* the sovereignty of God boldly!


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## Bern (Mar 23, 2010)

I haven't read Spurgeon for a long time!  Sometimes I think we can get too hung up on the details of certain things though. When we believe, surely what matters is that we realise that we haven't worked up enough goodness to believe.... acknowledging that it is only God's mercy and grace that has led us to repentance. I think using terms such as "decision" or "receieve Jesus" is only really a problem when it is coupled with the teaching of incorrect doctrine, or lack of teaching correct doctrine. If people are led to understand that they can say a little prayer then carry on as they were, in their sinful lives, then thats not the gospel... but if people are given the truth then compelled to respond to it, well thats fine as far as I can see.


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## py3ak (Mar 23, 2010)

Earl, you say that God causes belief to "happen" to people who are willing. _What_ are they willing? Or _what_ are they willing _to do or experience or undergo_? You're concerned that people are undermining God's initiative in giving faith by saying that faith has a volitional aspect, but that statement taken by itself does more to undermine monergism than any remarks by those who hold that faith is a response of the whole man.

Are you retracting this statement from post #48?

"My contention is that He causes belief to "happen" to people who are willing."​Because the statement from your last post (#54) sounds like you are contradicting yourself: 

"No, I am contending that God gives people faith by His volition not theirs."​
If you're retreating from the contention that God causes belief to happen to people who are willing, that's fine - but it would be easier to interact with where you are right now if you let us know you've moved! 

"Also there are various posts within this thread that say we "choose" to believe. 

No, I am contending that God gives people faith by His volition not theirs. I am not saying that people do not believe in Jesus, but I am saying that the belief in Jesus (faith) is not a decision one chooses or decides to have. "​ (Posts 53 & 54)

Of whose will are we born? Everyone on this thread, thinking about John 1:13, would say, "Of God's will." No one is denying that God has the initiative, that He sovereignly determines who believes. However it seems to me that you are assuming that this happens through the mechanism of conviction, that is, we "see" something, and therefore we don't "decide" to believe it, but belief in it is simply there. That's where I'm coming in, pointing out that faith is volitional as well as intellectual: it involves an actual entrusting of oneself. That doesn't undermine God's sovereignty, because God rules my will every bit as much as He rules my mind. And if we can return to the Biblical text for a moment, John 1:13 explains _why_ in v. 12 some received Christ. Though His own rejected Him some did not: what was the difference? The difference was God, because those who received Christ were born of God. But though God caused them to receive Christ, yet He did not receive Christ for them, nor indeed, without them.


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## earl40 (Mar 23, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Earl, you say that God causes belief to "happen" to people who are willing. _What_ are they willing? Or _what_ are they willing _to do or experience or undergo_? You're concerned that people are undermining God's initiative in giving faith by saying that faith has a volitional aspect, but that statement taken by itself does more to undermine monergism than any remarks by those who hold that faith is a response of the whole man.
> 
> Are you retracting this statement from post #48?
> 
> "My contention is that He causes belief to "happen" to people who are willing."​



I agree this was worded poorly. I believe God gives faith to those that are regenerated. This faith He gives includes the knowledge of Him, the assent to Who He is, and the trust we have in Him. Thus the measure of faith He gives us is not of ourselves but a gift one receives not by choice or decision. Now granted this is a tad difficult to understand but we can understand when we are sinning we are indeed acting out of a lack of faith in God, right? If so are we totally faithless? In other words, when we sin can we still trust God to be our Savior while we sin? The reason I point this out is that faith is either present or not, and if God gives only a small amount of faith to a person is he or she still not saved though they lack many elements of trust?

Once again I am not saying faith or belief does not include trust. I am saying that you do believe because faith is given to a person as a gift which is not of yourself,Ephesians 2. Now the faith is yours and it is part of you once you have it but the verse does say "8For by grace you have been saved through faith; *and that not of yourselves*, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast". All I have read in reformed writings say that faith is the gift that is being spoken of. Logic says that if it is faith being spoken of then that faith "is not of ourselves" if the reformed writings are correct.


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## earl40 (Mar 23, 2010)

Matthew Henry is much more eloquent and is saying what I am trying to convey here....."Here the apostle begins his account of the glorious change that was wrought in them by converting grace, where observe,I. By whom, and in what manner, it was brought about and effected. 1. Negatively: *Not of yourselves, v. 8. Our faith,* our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not the mere product of any natural abilities, nor of any merit of our own Not of works, lest any man should boast, v. 9. *These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us*, and therefore all boasting is excluded; he who glories must not glory in himself, but in the Lord. There is no room for any man’s boasting of his own abilities and power; or as though he had done any thing that might deserve such immense favours from God.


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## py3ak (Mar 23, 2010)

earl40 said:


> I agree this was worded poorly. I believe God gives faith to those that are regenerated. This faith He gives includes the knowledge of Him, the assent to Who He is, and the trust we have in Him. Thus the measure of faith He gives us is not of ourselves but a gift one receives not by choice or decision. Now granted this is a tad difficult to understand but we can understand when we are sinning we are indeed acting out of a lack of faith in God, right? If so are we totally faithless? In other words, when we sin can we still trust God to be our Savior while we sin? The reason I point this out is that faith is either present or not, and if God gives only a small amount of faith to a person is he or she still not saved though they lack many elements of trust?



Yes, God gives faith: and though that faith is logically inconsistent with sin, in actual fact they do coexist within us in our pilgrim state. 



earl40 said:


> Once again I am not saying faith or belief does not include trust. I am saying that you do believe because faith is given to a person as a gift which is not of yourself,Ephesians 2. Now the faith is yours and it is part of you once you have it but the verse does say "8For by grace you have been saved through faith; *and that not of yourselves*, it is the gift of God;
> 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast". All I have read in reformed writings say that faith is the gift that is being spoken of. Logic says that if it is faith being spoken of then that faith "is not of ourselves" if the reformed writings are correct.



No one is claiming that faith is of yourself; obviously our faith in Christ is something God has given us (Phil. 1:29). If some member on the board doesn't agree with your Matthew Henry quote, they are here under false pretences. Why do I believe when others don't? Because God worked that faith in me. And hence as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48). You seem to be trying to go a step further, though, claiming that our wills are passive in originally believing, which you curiously attempted to demonstrate from the imperfections of faith. _That_, not the sovereignty of God, or the true source of our faith, is what is in dispute. Now if we're misunderstand you on that point, that's fine: but your commendable opposition to the awful error of decisional regeneration can't be allowed to bring you to muzzle or avoid texts like "choose you this day whom ye will serve", "let him be your fear", "trust in the Lord with all thine heart", etc., etc. Scripture plainly requires us to act or exercise faith in Christ - to believe, in short.


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## earl40 (Mar 23, 2010)

py3ak said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree this was worded poorly. I believe God gives faith to those that are regenerated. This faith He gives includes the knowledge of Him, the assent to Who He is, and the trust we have in Him. Thus the measure of faith He gives us is not of ourselves but a gift one receives not by choice or decision. Now granted this is a tad difficult to understand but we can understand when we are sinning we are indeed acting out of a lack of faith in God, right? If so are we totally faithless? In other words, when we sin can we still trust God to be our Savior while we sin? The reason I point this out is that faith is either present or not, and if God gives only a small amount of faith to a person is he or she still not saved though they lack many elements of trust?
> ...


 
It sounds like we are just one page apart in what we believe about how we get faith. I do not disagree with most of what you have written other than that the faith in God we have was not a conscious choice in my opinion. Not to sound redundant (no doubt I am) but the faith we have was not generated by us. Now again I say, the faith we *exercise* is of us because it was given to us by God. Thus the verses you cite in your example to being faithful in our daily walk. The below is an imperfect example though not totally analogous to our conversation

"Once a person realizes what they must believe beyond all doubt, what other steps do they take in order to have that belief? None, it seems — there is nothing left to do. Thus, there is no extra, identifiable step which we can label the act of "choosing." If you realize that a child is about to fall into water which they don't see, no extra steps are needed to believe that the child is in danger. You don't "choose" to believe this, it simply because your belief due to the force of the facts in front of you. "


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## py3ak (Mar 23, 2010)

If I understand you correctly, you are trying to distinguish between faith exercised after conversion and the faith bestowed in conversion. However, all faith is the gift of God, the one as much as the other, and I don't believe they differ in kind at all. It seems to me that you are attempting to distinguish them by into the psychology of faith, and distinguishing the varying motions we make as God illumines our minds and renews our wills. If you want to pursue that, you might want to consult B.B. Warfield, "On Faith in its Psychological Aspects" (available here). 
Now I believe that your example commits an equivocation that was addressed previously in the thread. That example uses faith in the sense of conviction; but this doesn't reflect that faith involves or includes trust. You say that there is no distinct step that involves choice; but committing or entrusting yourself doesn't happen without your will. If you attempt to limit that entrusting to being posterior to "faith" you are simply narrowing the definition of faith to assent. If you attempt to argue that this only happens after conversion, that ignores all the texts about coming or looking to Christ. I don't know how important it is to consider this as a distinct step, because here I would guess that the causes are simultaneous with their effects; but the root error is in thinking that since it is of God, our wills cannot be involved in any way. Christ came by the will of God, not by the will of man; but His coming was still an answer to prayer (see Psalm 20).


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## earl40 (Mar 24, 2010)

py3ak said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are trying to distinguish between faith exercised after conversion and the faith bestowed in conversion. However, all faith is the gift of God, the one as much as the other, and I don't believe they differ in kind at all. It seems to me that you are attempting to distinguish them by into the psychology of faith, and distinguishing the varying motions we make as God illumines our minds and renews our wills. If you want to pursue that, you might want to consult B.B. Warfield, "On Faith in its Psychological Aspects" (available here).
> Now I believe that your example commits an equivocation that was addressed previously in the thread. That example uses faith in the sense of conviction; but this doesn't reflect that faith involves or includes trust. You say that there is no distinct step that involves choice; but committing or entrusting yourself doesn't happen without your will. If you attempt to limit that entrusting to being posterior to "faith" you are simply narrowing the definition of faith to assent. If you attempt to argue that this only happens after conversion, that ignores all the texts about coming or looking to Christ. I don't know how important it is to consider this as a distinct step, because here I would guess that the causes are simultaneous with their effects; but the root error is in thinking that since it is of God, our wills cannot be involved in any way. Christ came by the will of God, not by the will of man; but His coming was still an answer to prayer (see Psalm 20).


 
Thank you. I will look into the Warfield link. I hope you understand I believe ,by my will the faith we have is volitional. I also believe the faith we recieve at conversion is the same faith we have after. No doubt the faith we posses now is the same faith that saves us. I understand that we were justified when we first got it and that faith is the same faith that endures in us with our entire walk with The Lord.

Just one question, why do you think in Epesians it say that faith is "not of ourselves"?


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## py3ak (Mar 24, 2010)

Because faith is the gift of God.


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## earl40 (Mar 24, 2010)

Faith is knowledge,assent and trust.

Knowledge is knowing Who and what He did. (from The Word or from preaching of His word)
Assent is acquittance that the knowledge is true.
Trust is when we depend the Object of the knowledge.

OK, now we can see knowledge is from God via the preaching of His truth. Assent comes from the rebirth (I believe another topic altogether) as does trust. So can I say that the gift of faith is of me since I assented and trusted the knowledge preached to me?.....just typing this out to the logical conclusion which appears to contradict Ephesians. Now this appears to me that man believes to believes in God. That is the "problem".

So how can I phrase this....#1. Man believes to believe in Jesus. Or man chooses (or decides) to believe to believe in Jesus.
#2. Man believes in Jesus.

Concerning #1. I do realize that the contention is that this is all generated from a regenerated person which is OK but this does require a temporal period of time between regeneration and faith.
Concerning #2 If man is given assent and trust to the knowledge he knows one can say that faith is all from God. Along with knowledge of course.

The "problem" is that can God not grant assent and trust to a person without man doing something?

I really not asking questions here but just typing out my thought process because the statement "I believed to believe" just does not sound correct or look correct as is required if one says a person "chooses Jesus" or "decides to believe in Jesus" as per my original post in this thread. Just to reiterate I do believe faith is volitional but the statement is I am having trouble squaring how faith is not of our self (volition) but all of God as spoken in Ephesians. 

py3ak.....I am just starting to look into the Warfield article. Thanks.


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## py3ak (Mar 24, 2010)

earl40 said:


> OK, now we can see knowledge is from God via the preaching of His truth. Assent comes from the rebirth (I believe another topic altogether) as does trust. So can I say that the gift of faith is of me since I assented and trusted the knowledge preached to me?.....just typing this out to the logical conclusion which appears to contradict Ephesians. Now this appears to me that man believes to believes in God. That is the "problem".



Why does it appear that way to you?



earl40 said:


> The "problem" is that can God not grant assent and trust to a person without man doing something?



Sure. Does God grant obedience? 



earl40 said:


> I really not asking questions here but just typing out my thought process because the statement "I believed to believe" just does not sound correct or look correct....


Yes, that statement seems like gibberish to me as well. 



earl40 said:


> I do believe faith is volitional but the statement is I am having trouble squaring how faith is not of our self (volition) but all of God as spoken in Ephesians.


 
Because God gives it to us in its totality. When Paul writes, _For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness_ (Romans 10:10) he clearly identifies something that a man does; but he in no way contradicts himself in Ephesians 2:8,9 or in Philippians 1:29, or Ephesians 1:19 (according to the way some take it, that our belief is in accordance with, implicitly a result of, His almighty power).


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## earl40 (Mar 25, 2010)

py3ak said:


> [
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> ...


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## py3ak (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, I gathered that; but I don't think such an equation is legitimate, for reasons discussed previously in the thread.


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## jjraby (Mar 25, 2010)

Could it not be said that when Our heart of stone is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh, that we freely receive Christ. For who can resist whom God has called?

But yes, Alter calls annoy me as well. But if we can resist Christ, can we not receive him alternately?


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## kvanlaan (Mar 25, 2010)

Hang on a sec here. I have attempted to read through every post in this thread but am rather befuddled at this point. Only those who are appointed to faith will believe (Acts 13:48). Faith is irresistible, if we believe that God predestined our faith before the world was formed. We, in our sin, may seek to reject the God who made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is, but you can no more do that than you can lick you own elbow. He set the stars in motion. Do we really think that He can then be defeated by one puny man's sinful nature? That God is knocking at your heart, but if we don't open the door, He will go and sulk in the corner because He just can't make you believe? Every bit of faith is indeed a gift, but we simply cannot get away from it - even a mustard seed of faith is a powerful work of the Holy Spirit. He is changing a reprobate, God-hating heart that is dead in sin into one that loves Him. Such a heart is incapable of receiving Him before it is regenerated, in which case it is an act of the Holy Spirit and not one of personal will or decision. Those who 'reject' Christ were never of Him in the first place.


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## earl40 (Mar 26, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> He is changing a reprobate, God-hating heart that is dead in sin into one that loves Him. Such a heart is incapable of receiving Him before it is regenerated, in which case it is an act of the Holy Spirit and not one of personal will or decision. Those who 'reject' Christ were never of Him in the first place.


 
I think you have hit on the point I was trying to make (rather poorly of course) in that the act of "choosing" Jesus before one believes is how I see it. Now I have heard, and as this thread probably proves, is that regeneration comes before we believe in logical order but not in temporal order.

How this works out in making a "choice " or "decision" for Jesus while unregenerate is impossible of course,but as per my point that the temporal time period,I think one has to agree that if we use the words "choice" or "decision" in the context of justification we may be forcing "time" between regeneration and actually believing in Jesus. In other words, are there really seekers out there? From my understanding of this matter there are none.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2010)

> In other words, are there really seekers out there? From my understanding of this matter there are none.



No reprobate seeks a holy God. They run from Him. Only the regenerate seek Him (that is, He draws them to Him - John 6:44).


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## earl40 (Mar 26, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > In other words, are there really seekers out there? From my understanding of this matter there are none.
> 
> 
> 
> No reprobate seeks a holy God. They run from Him. Only the regenerate seek Him (that is, He draws them to Him - John 6:44).



I so am happy you are posting on this topic because does your post "imply" that there are seekers out there that are regenerate and as of yet do not believe?


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2010)

> I so am happy you are posting on this topic because does your post "imply" that there are seekers out there that are regenerate and as of yet do not believe?



I'm not sure; I'd rather tiptoe around that one and lean on R.C.:

Regeneration Preceeds Faith by R.C. Sproul


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## earl40 (Mar 26, 2010)

....../ -----------


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## Simply_Nikki (Mar 26, 2010)

Just jumping in and throwing my 2 cents worth. 

There seems to be major equivocation going on, one that Ruben has already pointed out. It would be absurd to think that anyone on the _puritan_board would deny the doctrine that faith is a gift from God and that his call to faith and repentance is irresistible once God regenerates a man's heart. So lets give the benefit of the doubt that we are all reformed or reforming here and that the issue is a matter of semantics rather than substance. 

From my point of view it seems that the point of contention is whether we can use the word "choose" or "recieve" to describe a man whose heart has been regenerated to believe the gospel (though all of us here know that the call is irresistible for the regenerate). It almost seems like some are arguing for the "imputation" rather than "impartation" of faith. Is there any volition in saving faith? It would seem that the bible and all of the historical reformed confessions would indicate so. Though we know the volition itself is a direct result of God's changing of our heart and granting us the ability to believe. Was our choice already made for us? Yes, but are we still making a choice (in the sense that our volition to put our trust in Jesus is present)? I would think Yes. 

So the question then becomes, does this need to be stated when one is presenting the gospel or giving an outward call to repent and believe? I lean on probably not. I know that coming from an Arminian word-faith background myself, hearing words like recieve and choose will quickly spring to mind negative connotations from the erred theology of my past. But if I hear this kind of language in a sound confessionally reformed church, which I have, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt that I know the theology behind what needs to precede this "choice" (regeneration), so for me it does not trigger such alarm. I don't think when presenting the general outward call of the gospel that one needs to say.. "put your trust in Jesus only if you've been regenerated, if not, then sorry but you can't" or something to that effect. 

Nevertheless, I could be wrong, though I don't think I am. But should I be I'm willing to be corrected by elders/teachers in the church.


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## py3ak (Mar 26, 2010)

Thank you, Nikki, that was very good.


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## earl40 (Mar 26, 2010)

py3ak any thoughts on on the apparent time period between regeneration to believing and how using the words choose or decide implies such?


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2010)

> Though we know the volition itself is a direct result of God's changing of our heart and granting us the ability to believe. *Was our choice already made for us?* *Yes, but are we still making a choice* (in the sense that our volition to put our trust in Jesus is present)? I would think Yes.



Then how is this a choice, as we generally understand the word? If we are simply going through actions which were in fact set in motion by the Holy Spirit, how can we call it a 'choice'? I am not of the opinion that we have Arminian dissenters in the PB ranks or any such thing, but I don't think that the word 'choice' (or 'decision') is such a great way to describe it, hence the flurry of responses to verses able to be used by Arminians to support their views. This term *must* be couched in explanation. No, not at the time of initial contact with an unbeliever, but there is so much heresy in the 'church' these days (and oh so much of it in precisely this area) that clarity on what exactly we believe is imperative, hence the need for the confessions, strict adherence thereto, and strict instruction therein.

If Arminianism was enough of an issue for almost a hundred Reformed pastors, elders, and other to get together and NOT argue with each other, but instead turn their collective talents on the Remonstrants, then surely the semantic whiff of it is enough to bring out a well-meaning few who are willing to stand on another believer's windpipe (in love) in order to keep the church pure.


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

earl40 said:


> py3ak any thoughts on on the apparent time period between regeneration to believing and how using the words choose or decide implies such?


 
What apparent time period?


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> Then how is this a choice, as we generally understand the word? If we are simply going through actions which were in fact set in motion by the Holy Spirit, how can we call it a 'choice'?



Because by the decree of God the liberty or contingency of second causes is not taken away, but rather established. Regeneration renews our wills, and hence we embrace Christ freely offered to us in the Gospel. (WCF III.1; IX.4; X.1,2; XIV.2). If you look again at WCF X, the chapter on effectual calling, it becomes quite clear that human volition is secured, rather than superseded, by God's work: their wills are renewed and by God's almighty power determined and effectually drawn - yet they come most freely; man is enabled to answer God's call and embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. 



kvanlaan said:


> If Arminianism was enough of an issue for almost a hundred Reformed pastors, elders, and other to get together and NOT argue with each other, but instead turn their collective talents on the Remonstrants, then surely the semantic whiff of it is enough to bring out a well-meaning few who are willing to stand on another believer's windpipe (in love) in order to keep the church pure.


 
They did argue with one another, Kevin. Maccovius had 50 charges brought against him at the Synod of Dordt.


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## earl40 (Mar 27, 2010)

py3ak said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > py3ak any thoughts on on the apparent time period between regeneration to believing and how using the words choose or decide implies such?
> ...


 
Here is the quote that I was referring to, In other words, regenerate unbelievers seeking Jesus, which I am post with with absolutely no animosity at all to kvanlaan


kvanlaan said:


> No reprobate seeks a holy God. They run from Him. Only the regenerate seek Him (that is, He draws them to Him - John 6:44).




---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

Here I found the terms of the misunderstanding. 

Regeneration is it "mediate" or "immediate"?


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

So you're asking if there can be a time period between regeneration and faith? I would suspect that the answer is no, with regard to the existence of faith, but yes, with regard to the awareness of faith.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> They did argue with one another, Kevin. Maccovius had 50 charges brought against him at the Synod of Dordt.



This was a separate issue before Synod as I understand it, not infighting that went on during the Synod's dealing with the Arminian heresy.


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

Sure, but you see the Synod didn't have to choose. They squashed Arminianism and fought among themselves, and so can we!


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> Sure, but you see the Synod didn't have to choose. They squashed Arminianism and fought among themselves, and so can we!



Maccovius, as I understand it, was appealing his teaching of supralapsarianism to the Synod after Friesland laid charges against him - this was not an issue of splitting hairs over Arminianism, and that is what my comment referred to; as far as I can see, they presented a united front against the heresy of Arminianism.

Yes, we will argue over this. Indwelling sin does funny things to the well-intentioned.


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> Yes, we will argue over this. Indwelling sin does funny things to the well-intentioned.


 
You could always stop arguing.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> You could always stop arguing.



Actually, I cannot. I am spurred on almost against my 'will'. The truth must be told!


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

Your will is enslaved to argumentativeness?


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

My will is in bondage to the truth. It's almost as though I have no choice in the matter...


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

'The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.'


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

To take my turn in speaking truth, yes, indeed, just as we are right now. But by the influence of the Spirit I am _bound_ to speak truth. I may fall into sin and speak falsely, but for this I must repent.



> WCF Chapter 5
> 
> 5. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;(19) and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.(20)


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

Which is why you should affirm that _with the heart man believeth unto righteousness_.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

Did Esau make a choice in rejecting the Lord? Did he reject Him of his free will?


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes. Esau was under no compulsion to despise his birthright. If you're taking the line of argument I suspect, then you are beginning to confound election with conversion.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> Which is why you should affirm that _with the heart man believeth unto righteousness._



That's true. Who is at work in that heart to fulfill that? To whom does the heart belong?

---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------




> "neither can there be any more or less good in the counsels and actions of any man, than God of His own free grace chooses to produce in them; nor can the will of any creature be inclined in any other direction than that which seems good to the eternal and gracious counsel of God."



Now within that, the actions may be performed freely, but is there a real, autonomous, choice, when bracketed within the above?


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

God works that faith in the heart, which is to say, causes that person to believe through His sovereign, effectual call in which He illumines the mind and renews the will.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

And once He has worked that faith in the heart, He sits back and waits to see what will happen?

Also, can you be regenerated and not receive Christ? Is that possible?


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

No: to quote what I referenced before from the Westminster Confession, when God has illumined the mind and renewed the will, the subjects of this operation are determined "to that which is good, and effectually drawn to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace." (IX.1). 

Again, _with the heart man believeth unto righteousness_, and that faith _is the gift of God_. I don't understand why it's at all hard to accept both, or why it should seem difficult to affirm that God makes man willing, and that man comes freely.

I think your quote in post #98 was miscopied - or at least that some punctuation is missing.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> I think your quote in post #98 was miscopied - or at least that some punctuation is missing.



True. Fixed. I was typing it from the commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism, it is not online.

But answer this: Can man be regenerated and _not_ receive Christ? I think that will answer the big question here. If the answer is no, then is there _really_ a choice involved, as we understand choice (and if it is a different meaning, then please explain)? I don't think you can have a real choice if there is only the inevitable. If the answer is yes, I'd like to know how we get there Scripturally.


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

No. All the regenerate receive Christ. But since when does the power of contrary choice determine the validity of a volition? Do you disagree with the Confession's statement that we come most freely? Do you agree that our embracing of Christ is volitional?

Perhaps Turretin can put an end to this discussion, speaking to the question, _Whether in the first moment of conversion man is merely passive or whether his will cooperates in some measure with the grace of God. The former we affirm and deny the latter against all Synergists._ 



> The question does not concern the second stage of conversion in which it is certain that man is not merely passive, but cooperates with God (or rather operates under him). Indeed he actually believes and converts himself to God; while being acted upon, he acts; and being regenerated and moved by God, he moves himself to the exercise of the new life. Rather the question concerns the first moment when he is converted and receives new life by regeneration. We contend that he is merely passive in this, as a receiving subject and not as an acting principle.


 (XV.5,2)

I am given life, my mind is illuminated, my will is renewed, without any kind of involvement on my part; but that illumined mind and renewed will (my 'heart') believe in Christ: I know, assent, and trust. My whole nature is active in that faith. Being sovereignly acted upon, I freely act. And so God's decision does not replace mine, but infallibly secures it, and that without compulsion. Again, a little later (XV,6,16) Turretin says what I've been trying to say from my first involvement on the thread, "God gives us no only the power of believing or of doing well, but the very act...." He adds the latter part of what I've been trying to maintain in paragraph 30 of this section, "The act of obedience which is produced by that efficaciousness (which being posited, the act cannot but exist) does not cease to be free and so a true act of obedience, if that efficaciousness neither brings any violence to man, nor introduces a brute and physical necessity, but leaves to him his own spontaneity and purpose (which we maintain grace does). For man does not cease to will most freely what he wills, although he wills it necessarily; nor does the grace which makes him willing from unwilling, take away, but rather restores liberty because it is liberty willingly and with joy to serve God. The fundamental error of our opponents is that liberty is placed in indifference and cannot consist with necessity (which we have frequently refuted by the example of the angels and saints in heaven, whose act of obedience is indeed necessary and infallible, but still most free)."


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

Sorry, must read more first to properly answer your first question. I think it is more subtle than we're both banging away at, but not so plain as we both think.

Actually, I can answer part of it. Do we come most freely? Yes. We come as we are called, but _only_ because the Holy Spirit has done a work in us. Do we come of our _own_ natural will? No, as we are a new creation in Him, we come to Him of His calling. We fish, we are called, we drop our nets, we come. Five minutes before, we would not have, we were God-hating and unregenerate. But as we have been changed, we come.


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## py3ak (Mar 27, 2010)

I added some more Turretin to my post while you were answering.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2010)

> The question does not concern the second stage of conversion in which it is certain that man is not merely passive, but cooperates with God (*or rather operates under him*). Indeed he actually believes and converts himself to God; while being acted upon, he acts; and being regenerated and moved by God, he moves himself to the exercise of the new life. Rather the question concerns the first moment when he is converted and receives new life by regeneration. *We contend that he is merely passive in this, as a receiving subject and not as an acting principle*.



This part I think helps a lot with my POV and how I feel about it. In practice, my Christian walk is not entirely of my own volition, but is an act of the Spirit acting upon and through me. The product is works of the Spirit. My sin I claim as my own.

I find this mildly relevant at this point:



> ARTICLE 24 – OUR SANCTIFICATION AND GOOD WORKS
> 
> We believe that this true faith, worked in man by the hearing of God’s Word and by the operation of the Holy Spirit,1 regenerates him and makes him a new man.2 It makes him live a new life and frees him from the slavery of sin.3 Therefore it is not true that this justifying faith makes man indifferent to living a good and holy life.4 On the contrary, without it no one would ever do anything out of love for God,5 but only out of self-love or fear of being condemned. It is therefore impossible for this holy faith to be inactive in man, for we do not speak of an empty faith but of what Scripture calls faith working through love (Gal 5:6). This faith induces man to apply himself to those works which God has commanded in His Word. These works, proceeding from the good root of faith, are good and acceptable in the sight of God, since they are all sanctified by His grace. Nevertheless, they do not count toward our justification. For through faith in Christ we are justified, even before we do any good works.6 Otherwise they could not be good any more than the fruit of a tree can be good unless the tree itself is good.7
> 
> ...


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## earl40 (Mar 28, 2010)

py3ak said:


> So you're asking if there can be a time period between regeneration and faith? I would suspect that the answer is no, with regard to the existence of faith, but yes, with regard to the awareness of faith.


 
I have found this to be true. In other words, I have found that the majority of believers often mistake when they believed because of this reasons in this discussion we are having here.


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## py3ak (Mar 28, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > The question does not concern the second stage of conversion in which it is certain that man is not merely passive, but cooperates with God (*or rather operates under him*). Indeed he actually believes and converts himself to God; while being acted upon, he acts; and being regenerated and moved by God, he moves himself to the exercise of the new life. Rather the question concerns the first moment when he is converted and receives new life by regeneration. *We contend that he is merely passive in this, as a receiving subject and not as an acting principle*.
> 
> 
> 
> This part I think helps a lot with my POV and how I feel about it. In practice, my Christian walk is not entirely of my own volition, but is an act of the Spirit acting upon and through me. The product is works of the Spirit. My sin I claim as my own.


 
But it's also important to emphasize that you are not passive in your Christian life. In effectual calling, yes; but not in conversion nor in mortification. In our opposition to decisional regeneration, or to Arminianism, we can't make the mistake of granting their definition of terms, or accepting their views about what's possible or consistent. Which is why I quoted this from Turretin above:


> The act of obedience which is produced by that efficaciousness (which being posited, the act cannot but exist) does not cease to be free and so a true act of obedience, if that efficaciousness neither brings any violence to man, nor introduces a brute and physical necessity, but leaves to him his own spontaneity and purpose (which we maintain grace does). For man does not cease to will most freely what he wills, although he wills it necessarily; nor does the grace which makes him willing from unwilling, take away, but rather restores liberty because it is liberty willingly and with joy to serve God. *The fundamental error of our opponents is that liberty is placed in indifference and cannot consist with necessity* (which we have frequently refuted by the example of the angels and saints in heaven, whose act of obedience is indeed necessary and infallible, but still most free).


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## Jeremy McKeen (Mar 29, 2010)

The WCF ... "the principle acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace." 

When I tell people that they must accept and receive Christ, I do so with a deep rooted understanding that if they do, it is because Christ has accepted and received them and given them the ability to do so. Giving the command does not nullify God's power to fulfill it.


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## dudley (Mar 29, 2010)

*I praise God for this ,it is not by my doing!*



PresbyDane said:


> Well both you and I know that belief in God is a gift from him, but at the same time he has called us to make a call to believe in Christ and be saved. like Paul says to the jailor in acts.
> The news that faith is a gift from GOD really means the most to a believer that is afflicted and in doubt, because then it is the news that even the faith is something God does.
> To one that is not afflicted it only seems confusing, and I believe that we need not bring this up ahead of time, God will save him despite of wrongfully conceived theological convictions, because as you and I say, God is the one that saves, despite of what the individual person thinks.



I agree with PresbyDane when he says: "To one that is not afflicted it only seems confusing, and I believe that we need not bring this up ahead of time, God will save him despite of wrongfully conceived theological convictions, because as you and I say, God is the one that saves, despite of what the individual person thinks." 

I was saved despite my wrongfully conceived theological convictions having been raised as a Roman catholic. However my faith in Christ and my sincerety to know the truth guided me through Gods grace to receive effectual calling and by my own violition accepted the call and became one of the elect and I converted to the Reformed Faith and became a Presbyterian. I am justified by my faith in Jesus Crist alone and His saving act on Calvary as are all who accept His call and become one of the elect. I praise God for this ,it is not by my doing!


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## py3ak (Mar 29, 2010)

dudley said:


> I am justified by my faith in Jesus Crist alone and His saving act on Calvary as are all who accept His call and become one of the elect. I praise God for this ,it is not by my doing!


 
I know you know this - I just thought it might be worth while to point out that one doesn't become one of the elect: effectual calling, etc., happens because God has from the beginning chosen one to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


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## dudley (Mar 29, 2010)

py3ak said:


> dudley said:
> 
> 
> > I am justified by my faith in Jesus Crist alone and His saving act on Calvary as are all who accept His call and become one of the elect. I praise God for this ,it is not by my doing!
> ...



I agree with you Ruben and I thank you for pointing that out. I am still learning more each day about our beautiful Reformed Protestant faith. I thank God I am now a Protestant. I thank you and others for helping me understand further about our faith.

I went to a Roman catholic college and was required to take theology and philosophy courses. All of course were oriented to the Roman catholic teachings and perspectives. I however was introduced to a thought in a course which in Latin is "credo ut intelligum" translated to English it means “I believe to understand”

This phrase was popularized by St. Anselm and describes the Christians endeavor to understand what he or she already believes. I believe It is a good concise definition of what Christian theology truly is. This phase was originally based on Augustine of Hippo’s maxim crede ut intelligas, “believe so that you may understand.” Also related to this is Anselm’s fides quaerens intellectum “Faith seeking understanding.” All these phrases are used to aid in our understanding of faith's relationship to reason.

I did not know it at the time but I believe that was the beginning of my effectual calling that God had destined me to be one of the elect and by my faith not my efforts I was guided by Gods grace to the true Gospel and the Reformed faith. The Reformed theology gives an understanding of faith's relationship to reason. It is in my estimation the only Christian theology that relates to reason and is based on reason and mans limited finite ability to try and understand the infinite and awesome greatness of a wonderful God. It is one of the reasons I became a Presbyterian and why I am today a Reformed Protestant. One of my favorite hymns is 'How Great Thou Art".


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