# For those that smoke or drink (or eat) - how much is too much?



## Pergamum (Jul 19, 2009)

Some here smoke and some here drink. Some of us like to eat too.

Any advice on how to know how much to limit these activities? What are some physical and psychological indicators of how much we allow ourselves to enjoy?

Example: I like coffe. I define addiction as a physical complex of symptoms that produces greater and greater tolerance to a substance and, if withdrawn suddenly, produces symptoms of withdrawal. By my own definition of addiction therefore, I have been addicted to caffeine at various stages in my life. Being addicted to anything seems contradictory to the Bible's words not to let anything master us.

Also, I am heavy. I used to lift heavy, heavy weights, and now I am thick, over 200 lbs at 5'8''. How serious is this as a theological issue? How much is my sanctification tied to my ideal BMI?

For those that smoke, do you need a cig in the am or after a meal? Is there a "choice" to then you smoke, or are you compelled to smoke? Do you get a sore throat, and yet persist in smoking despite ill health effects? For those that drink, what is the line between sanctified buzz and drunkenness?

I do not want to be legalist or libertine. And I am mostly curious concerning the physical and psychological evidences by which you self-monitor your activities. 

What are your personal guidelines by which you monitor your own intake of pleasurable substances? Include coffee to, if you would.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 19, 2009)

"I've always appreciated Thomas Aquinas' answer to the question of how much alcohol one may drink without sinning:

His reply: _"usque ad hilaritatem,"_ to the point of cheerfulness.

Which seems consistent with Psalm 104:14-15

He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.​


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## smhbbag (Jul 19, 2009)

Likewise, I find alcohol to be the easier issue. I had not heard Aquinas' answer before - it's a good one.

My standard has always been (excluding the cases of numbing extreme physical pain): sinful drunkenness occurs when one is no longer able to clearly articulate a prayer, offer a clear presentation of the gospel, etc because of the drink. In light of the above, doing so with a slightly bigger smile on your face is fine


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## Ivan (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't drink enough to make a difference. I don't smoke either, although I'd have consider the bowl and the cigar. I have smoked some in the past. 

Eating...well, I don't eat a lot, but I don't eat very good food either. It's hit and miss, especially since I've started working third shift. I really don't have time at work to sit down and eat...even in a 12 hour period! I've lost about four pounds since working third shift. 



> Also, I am heavy. I used to lift heavy, heavy weights, and now I am thick, over 200 lbs at 5'8''. How serious is this as a theological issue? How much is my sanctification tied to my ideal BMI?



I really don't think there is any problem here unless what you are doing is greatly affecting you to the point that you are not able to fulfill your obligations. Or, on the other hand, you are so involved in your fitness and appearance that you aren't able to fulfill your obligations. That was my problem at one time.


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## dr_parsley (Jul 19, 2009)

I think that's a really good question, and I'd like to suggest a clarification - that too much is sin. This is not a lifestyle decision; it's a sin decision and it should impact on repentance and assurance.

Let's take the examples in turn and I think all I can do is present my judgments, and not what I think to be infallible ones.

Smoking - waste of money; demonstrates poor stewardship. This is because I can't imagine smoking to be pleasurable, so I just can't understand it. If it is a good pleasure to some, then the use of money would be more reasonable. On the other hand, it is clearly addictive and it's clear (to me) that any addiction is weaking ones potential to be available for God and to discern sinful desires from non-sinful ones. That would go for caffeine as well.

Alcohol - obviously if one is not able to have fellowship with God then he has gone too far. My personal judgment for myself is that a long way before then is too far because of health concerns - it is dehydrating and calories that don't help me. That's sin - to take myself away from usefulness to God for my own pleasures. I like it too much though and so I've made my wife my "gatekeeper". I don't allow myself to drink more than her (and she is very moderate) so I won't get into bad habits.

Food - I believe this is a cultural blind spot where we don't see the sin that is there. Speaking as one who is 25 pounds overweight (but who has lost 35 pounds in the past 9 months) I was deep in an habitual besetting sin when I was overeating. This fact should not be minimised, because (assurance of) salvation itself depends on it or it should depend on it if we have a right understanding of repentance and assurance - without true repentance will any of us enter the kingdom of God? I was feasting without God; I was indulging my own desires without reference to God. I'm not saying everyone overweight is in sin, but for each person it should be a personal indicator to examine themselves carefully. On the other hand, someone skinny can be deep in sinful eating as well, such a person needs to be extra careful to not sin, just as someone who doesn't easily get drunk needs to be extra careful with alcohol.

-----Added 7/19/2009 at 03:43:20 EST-----



Ivan said:


> > Also, I am heavy. I used to lift heavy, heavy weights, and now I am thick, over 200 lbs at 5'8''. How serious is this as a theological issue? How much is my sanctification tied to my ideal BMI?
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think there is any problem here unless what you are doing is greatly affecting you to the point that you are not able to fulfill your obligations. Or, on the other hand, you are so involved in your fitness and appearance that you aren't able to fulfill your obligations. That was my problem at one time.



I would go further than that. Even if you're able to meet your obligations, if you're not reaching the potential that God is making available to you, you are refusing his blessings and sinning. Your point though about being over-involved in fitness is great; our potential involves being healthy and energetic, not necessarily super-fit.


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## buggy (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't smoke because smoking is viewed as a vice by a significant portion of the population... and I wouldn't want to give the wrong signals to other believers. Besides as a sports guy I certainly don't want tobacco smoke to wear down my performance.

Drinks... never really drank in my youth as I was then in strongly anti-alcohol fundyland. Only when I left then I start to drink... like once every few days and during special celebrations. For myself the most I have ever drank is two glasses of wine. But I can live without it!

As for food... I'm now trying to lose weight as my vice during my younger days was gorging. I must slim down!

The main point I believe is about self-control and also, can you live without it? Spurgeon smoked cigars, but never once did he lived as though as he cannot live without it. That's my 2 pennies...


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## historyb (Jul 19, 2009)

I enjoy my pipe, I can enjoy a good drink, and I love good food. How much is to much? Each person must decide where sin in those areas begin for them


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## Ivan (Jul 19, 2009)

So...I don't smoke. I don't drink enough to get wet. I'm not overweight. I'm in relatively good health and condition.

So, I'm good to go.


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## dr_parsley (Jul 19, 2009)

Ivan said:


> So...I don't smoke. I don't drink enough to get wet. I'm not overweight. I'm in relatively good health and condition.
> 
> So, I'm good to go.



Good to go where?


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## Ivan (Jul 19, 2009)

dr_parsley said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > So...I don't smoke. I don't drink enough to get wet. I'm not overweight. I'm in relatively good health and condition.
> ...



Out the door!


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## Pergamum (Jul 19, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> Likewise, I find alcohol to be the easier issue. I had not heard Aquinas' answer before - it's a good one.
> 
> My standard has always been (excluding the cases of numbing extreme physical pain): sinful drunkenness occurs when one is no longer able to clearly articulate a prayer, offer a clear presentation of the gospel, etc because of the drink. In light of the above, doing so with a slightly bigger smile on your face is fine



In cases of extreme physical pain, drunkenness is okay? Like self-medication? I think I agree due to the verse about giving strong drink to the dying.

Does this also include psychological pain as well (i.e. grief)?


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## Reformed Thomist (Jul 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> For those that smoke, do you need a cig in the am or after a meal? Is there a "choice" to then you smoke, or are you compelled to smoke?



I am addicted to cigarettes -- I smoke about a pack (20) a day. Were I to 'quit' right now (9:30-ish in the morning), I would probably begin to undergo significant withdrawal symptoms by late afternoon or early evening, which would probably 'convince' me to have a cigarette. But this does not mean that I would not have a 'choice' in the matter; I always have a choice. My choice would just not be free from compelling or determining factors. But what choice ever is? 

Everything that I do -- that I choose -- can be _explained_ (entailing determination) by untold physical/psychological factors, which cause me to _desire_ this or that end under the guise of the good (whether what I desire _is_ actually 'good' [moral] is irrelevant to this point -- what matters is that I _perceive_ the end to be good, which is the means by which any course of action is taken by a moral agent). What I desire for myself, caused, is what I end up doing. 'Freedom' just consists of never being _forced_ from without to choose counter to what I desire for myself... which, strictly speaking, never happens. 

Long story short, the fact I am compelled to smoke does not contradict the fact that I choose to smoke, and vice-versa. I just do not choose as I would were 'libertarian' freedom true... which it isn't.


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## rpavich (Jul 19, 2009)

I guess I'm in the minority here in that I don't think that anything we've been discussing is wrong/sinful.

I don't smoke, but those who do aren't any less sinful than those of us who watch too much TV instead of bible study, eat more than we should, eat prepackaged foods, live in the city where the air is so polluted it hurts to breath in the afternoon, sleep more than we need, keep our mouth closed when we should open it, etc.

Isn't there a verse about all foods being ok?


I guess I just see that by these standards we would all have to live in a monastery, eat only whole foods grown by ourselves without pesticides, and read / study the bible 24/7 to keep from sinning and then we'd just find new ways to sin!


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## Gord (Jul 19, 2009)

My understanding is that *anything* we do to please us, is sin.

Everything we do should be with the Glory of God in mind.


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## smhbbag (Jul 19, 2009)

> In cases of extreme physical pain, drunkenness is okay? Like self-medication? I think I agree due to the verse about giving strong drink to the dying.
> 
> Does this also include psychological pain as well (i.e. grief)?



I believe that Proverbs 31:6-7 does allow for it. 



> "6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
> wine to those who are in anguish;
> 
> 7 let them drink and forget their poverty
> and remember their misery no more.



About 10 months ago, I had two terrible pinched nerves in my back. The only solution for those is rest, and some massage. There was no possible position I could lay in that would allow for sleep, and the pain was causing my muscles to tense and making the pain worse. Motrin, Tylenol, and a few stronger painkillers from previous dental work were completely ineffective. Didn't even touch the pain. I couldn't sleep, eat, or rest in any way because of it. 

So, on a Friday, I told my wife to go pick me up a fifth of Jack Daniel's, and that I would see her on Sunday. The strong drink allowed me to sleep heavily for 2 straight days, only waking up when the pain returned, which was then doused with more liquor so I could go back to sleep. Sunday afternoon, I woke up and 90% of the pain was gone, and I was good for work on Monday. 

In my mind, if strong pharmaceuticals that knock you out completely are fine in these cases, so is a more natural (and effective) method.

Psychological pain - possibly. I would be open to it, but it's a much more dangerous animal. The verse describes someone "giving" the drink to the one in suffering, rather than the one who is suffering taking it on himself. I think this could show an amount of "supervision" of the situation by one who is not in the pain. If my wife were not around, the intentional drunkenness would have been more dangerous and possibly ill-advised. I think this would apply even moreso for those with psychological issues (during a limited time - it's not a long-term treatment).


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## ww (Jul 19, 2009)

I drink, smoke cigars, and eat. 

It is eating which has been my family and my demise. We like food and eat way too much of it. I am 5'7" and was 228 lbs about a year ago and got down to 163 lbs about 4months ago. Due to bad decisions to start eating the old way after some personal tribulations in my life I gained back 30 lbs of it and have been back eating the right way for 2 weeks and am now around 190. I'm determined to be at 157 which is a normal BMI by age 40 and maintain it. 

All this to say overeating is sinful and is harmful to the Temple especially if you have a family history of health issues. I'm not saying you have to have a perfect BMI but get out of the danger zone before it's too late. 

As far as drinking I can consume up to 4 (12 oz) beverages (beer) over a period of 4 hours or so usually with food and still be within my moderate range. Anything more than that for me is excessive. I will say that I've consumed less and stopped based on my internal gague. Wine is 1 or 2 at the most for moderate consumption, anything more and I've crossed the line. 

Cigars. I smoke 1 or 2 a week and do not inhale. However as the wife and I consider trying to get pregnant in a month or so the Cigars will cease, more weight will come off, and less consumption of alcohol will ensue as it impacts sterility. 

Now that's more than you wanted to know I'm sure but I'm particularly expressive for some reason this morning.


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## jwithnell (Jul 19, 2009)

Heard a good sermon recently the gist of which was that anything we turned to for comfort, or to sustain us, is potentially an idol ... that an idol is more likely to be a pint of Ben and Jerry's than a golden statute. When he mention the term "comfort food," I had to wince.

God has given us many things to support us physically, food and drink among them. And part of our enjoying God, is enjoying what he has provided us in His creation. But crying in our beer or turning to a pound of M&Ms to get us over the hump is a different matter. I guess like so many other things, we have to examine our motivations.

Not sure what to say about smoking. It seems like we find out more and more how harmful it really is. I like the smell of a good pipe tobacco, and know many who enjoy an occasional good cigar. I really don't know what to think on this one.


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## ww (Jul 19, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> Heard a good sermon recently the gist of which was that anything we turned to for comfort, or to sustain us, is potentially an idol ... that an idol is more likely to be a pint of Ben and Jerry's than a golden statute. When he mention the term "comfort food," I had to wince.
> 
> God has given us many things to support us physically, food and drink among them. And part of our enjoying God, is enjoying what he has provided us in His creation. But crying in our beer or turning to a pound of M&Ms to get us over the hump is a different matter. I guess like so many other things, we have to examine our motivations.
> 
> Not sure what to say about smoking. It seems like we find out more and more how harmful it really is. I like the smell of a good pipe tobacco, and know many who enjoy an occasional good cigar. I really don't know what to think on this one.



Excellent Points. Emotional Eating, been there done that. My own personal rule with alcohol is it is only consumed when in good spirits and never to be consumed to comfort (except to relax after a hard day's work) or when in a poor mood.


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## Poimen (Jul 19, 2009)

If I covet it I quit. I if I want it I ask myself 'why'? If I enjoy it I praise God.


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## JOwen (Jul 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> > In cases of extreme physical pain, drunkenness is okay? Like self-medication? I think I agree due to the verse about giving strong drink to the dying.
> ...


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## JBaldwin (Jul 19, 2009)

All I can say about all this is that I'm glad God didn't tell us exactly how many ounces of food we can have a day or how many glasses of wine we can drink each day.

Too much eating is when I eat and then next day I step on the scale and I've gained weight. If I eat until my stomach hurts, I've eaten too much. These days, if I eat until I'm full, I've eaten too much.


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## calgal (Jul 19, 2009)

historyb said:


> I enjoy my pipe, I can enjoy a good drink, and I love good food. How much is to much? Each person must decide where sin in those areas begin for them



That sounds like a hobbit!


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## TeachingTulip (Jul 19, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> All I can say about all this is that I'm glad God didn't tell us exactly how many ounces of food we can have a day or how many glasses of wine we can drink each day.
> 
> Too much eating is when I eat and then next day I step on the scale and I've gained weight. If I eat until my stomach hurts, I've eaten too much. These days, if I eat until I'm full, I've eaten too much.



Amen! This is because . . .

*" . . . The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Romans 14:17*

Worrying about set limits of food and drink is to dwell on the negative, and dictates issuing limitations or prohibitions of food and drink, is just more temporal law.

Such is not the positive message of gospel and grace, which focuses on the spiritual and the eternal.


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## Kevin (Jul 20, 2009)

I think that I might be addicted to eating. When I skip b-fast I feel irritable & short-tempered! I find that when I go a day or two without food all that I can think about is eating!! 

PLEASE PRAY FOR ME THAT I MIGHT HAVE *VICTORY* OVER THIS IDOL!!!

Sounds silly doesn't it?

In my humble opinion we are so much influneced by our modern (& post-modern) society that we are (almost) unable to think in Biblical categories.

What does a currently popular theory about "addiction" have to do with sin? Either an action is a sin, or it isn't. Period. Full-stop.

Now I do not (now) smoke. I used to smoke pipes, cigars, & 2 pack of cigs a day. About 3 years ago I stopped. NB I didn't "quit" after all "no one like a quitter!" I just stopped. My smoking was not a "sin" it was just wasteful, so I stopped.

I do drink. Mostly because I am thirsty! (Opps, is that a craving?)

Did you ever pause, from calculating how many oz's of wine or beer is "OK" for a christian, to consider that at the time the scripture was written most people drank a couple of x's more than the modern average?

Our obsession with the "proper amount of wine one may drink with out sin" would strike those who recieved the scriptures first hand as... strange. Our obbsesion would be more of a conceren to them then the number of glasses of wine you consumed.

Perhaps because they knew first hand what it meant to "be drunk" In our day we focus on BAC, while the scripture focuses on behavior.

Happy? Disctracted from your problems? The scripture says this is one of the "Blessings" of wine. But the RCMP may differ if your BAC is too high! 

Now I agree that driving a motor vehicle signifigantly alters the issue. The increased risk to others if you had 4 vs 3 glasses of wine, does come into play if you are driving a car or walking a couple of hundred yards home. But the issue has shifted to judgment, and away from how much is a sin to drink.


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## Edward (Jul 20, 2009)

The question of stewardship hasn't been directly explored on this thread. (Several posts have touched on the issue.) On my last visit to a 7-11, I glanced up and was surprised by how expensive cigarettes had gotten. Some alcohol isn't cheap, either. 

Now some folks here can easily afford those costs. But is it good stewardship to drop over $40 on something that you plan to burn up?


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## WaywardNowHome (Jul 20, 2009)

Kevin said:


> I think that I might be addicted to eating. When I skip b-fast I feel irritable & short-tempered! I find that when I go a day or two without food all that I can think about is eating!!
> 
> PLEASE PRAY FOR ME THAT I MIGHT HAVE *VICTORY* OVER THIS IDOL!!!
> 
> Sounds silly doesn't it?



I don't think that's a fair analogy. For one thing, food is necessary for life. Tobacco and alcohol are not.



Kevin said:


> Either an action is a sin, or it isn't. Period. Full-stop.



I disagree. Maybe some actions are binary by nature (murder, adultery, etc.): either you're a murderer or you're not. However, too much focus on a good "thing" and being too consumed by an acceptable "activity," so much so that your focus is stolen away from God, can turn those perfectly normals "things" and "activities" into great idols. I believe everyone on the PB can say something similar from experience alone.


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## Dieter Schneider (Jul 20, 2009)

May I direct you to Greg Nichols.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 20, 2009)

Do have a clear conscience, don't have an addiction.


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## rpavich (Jul 20, 2009)

> Now some folks here can easily afford those costs. But is it good stewardship to drop over $40 on something that you plan to burn up?



Or not shop for the best bargain

Or not use all the coupons you could

Or not walk to work when it's humanly possible


I'm being a little sarcastic but I have to say once again...though smoking is gross smelling, and expensive (I don't smoke) we tend to point fingers at these types of things as sin and would never say that "throwing a pair of shoes away before they were literally falling off of our feet" as "no big deal" when it's exactly the same.

I just don't agree.


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## JML (Jul 20, 2009)

As far as eating is concerned, we should exercise self-control as it is a characteristic of a Christian. Truth is, some people can eat more than others without gaining weight. Some people are more active and therefore require more food to fuel their active lifestyles. One thing is that if we are grossly overweight, we don't exactly scream self-control. 

Pastor Al Martin spoke on this. He said this (paraphrased): our weight is a result of what goes in (eating) minus what is worked off (exercise) minus what comes out (bathroom). So if too much is staying on then we must either eat less or exercise more (didn't mention anything about laxatives ) 

And yes, some people have to work harder than others because of genes. Eating is not the sin, lack of self-control in eating is a sin.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 20, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> As far as eating is concerned, we should exercise self-control as it is a characteristic of a Christian. Truth is, some people can eat more than others without gaining weight. Some people are more active and therefore require more food to fuel their active lifestyles. One thing is that if we are grossly overweight, we don't exactly scream self-control.
> 
> Pastor Al Martin spoke on this. He said this (paraphrased): our weight is a result of what goes in (eating) minus what is worked off (exercise) minus what comes out (bathroom). So if too much is staying on then we must either eat less or exercise more (didn't mention anything about laxatives )
> 
> And yes, some people have to work harder than others because of genes. Eating is not the sin, lack of self-control in eating is a sin.



How about us folk who are semi-disabled with sit down jobs who want to stay off the system????


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## rpavich (Jul 20, 2009)

Ok....I'm going to play devil's advocate here...don't take offense....


What scripture support is their for this statement:



> As far as eating is concerned, we should exercise self-control as it is a characteristic of a Christian. ...Eating is not the sin, lack of self-control in eating is a sin.


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## JML (Jul 20, 2009)

rpavich said:


> Ok....I'm going to play devil's advocate here...don't take offense....
> 
> 
> What scripture support is their for this statement:
> ...



2 Timothy 3:3
2 Peter 1:6
Titus 1:8
Acts 24:25
Galatians 5:23
Titus 2:2
Titus 2:4
1 Timothy 3:2

These have different contexts and use different terms (sober, temperance, self-control) but the concept is the same, that Christians are to be self-controlled, possess temperance, be sober and not ruled by self and its desires. This would apply to eating as well as everything else in life.


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## steven-nemes (Jul 20, 2009)

Paul also says something along the lines of " 'All things are lawful for me', but I will not let anything take control of me" in 1 Cor.


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## JML (Jul 20, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> John Lanier said:
> 
> 
> > As far as eating is concerned, we should exercise self-control as it is a characteristic of a Christian. Truth is, some people can eat more than others without gaining weight. Some people are more active and therefore require more food to fuel their active lifestyles. One thing is that if we are grossly overweight, we don't exactly scream self-control.
> ...



Obviously, it becomes more difficult when disabilities are brought in to the equation. I would say that one should do whatever exercise they can and a person wouldn't need to eat as much because of the fact that they don't burn many calories. But for extreme disabilities we would run into a problem because in order to exhibit self-control you must be able to "control" self. If one is unable to control self in the way of exercise then it would be a problem.

Why do you have to ask such difficult questions!!!


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## Pergamum (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry guys, I did not mean for the thread to lead into a debate of whether these things were sin, but how much. 

I did not want to spark a debate on legalism/libertinism but wanted some personal guidelines by which you self-regulate your behavior. My aim is not to run down other views but to gain wisdom so that I may live smarter. 

If things are lawful for me, as long as they do not take control of me - how does one take back and re-establish control. This would include many things besides the big three of smoking, drinking, over-eating. This would include tv watching, working too much etc, spending too much money or shopping for items not really needed. 

At one point has control been gained over me, and what are some things we do to keep our control?


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## rpavich (Jul 21, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> rpavich said:
> 
> 
> > Ok....I'm going to play devil's advocate here...don't take offense....
> ...


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## GTMOPC (Jul 21, 2009)

With regard to alcohol, I have a 2 drink median with a variance which depends on the alcohol content. But the average is 2. This figure is preconceived. So when I do enjoy a few drinks if I get to 2 and still desire more I may opt for a third. But if I get there and desire a fourth I know I'm compromising my preconceived limit and stop at that. Kind of a good way for me to override the inhibition. But as I said it all usually depends on if it's beer, wine, or say a mixed drink.

Smoking for me means either abstinence or addiction, there's no way for me to casually smoke.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 21, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> > John Lanier said:
> ...



I guess I'm a fat, difficult, semi-disabled person


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## rpavich (Jul 21, 2009)

> I guess I'm a fat, difficult, semi-disabled person



Man oh man...are you sinning big time


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## Rich Koster (Jul 21, 2009)

rpavich said:


> > I guess I'm a fat, difficult, semi-disabled person
> 
> 
> 
> Man oh man...are you sinning big time



Put me in the same room with Spurgeon, we can smoke a stogie & chat while we shed a few pounds.

Hypothetically speaking.....I know he had his Day of the Lord already.


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## Webservant (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't smoke, and I have about 3 or 4 beers a month. My problem? I really like to eat. Too much for me? About the amount I typically eat. Yes, it is a problem, and I struggle with it daily.


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## Skyler (Jul 21, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Some here smoke and some here drink. Some of us like to eat too.
> 
> Any advice on how to know how much to limit these activities? What are some physical and psychological indicators of how much we allow ourselves to enjoy?
> 
> ...



I don't smoke or drink(alcohol), but I do eat usually and frequently imbibe in a can or two of soft drink(probably my biggest potential problem). I don't know that I'm addicted--I rather think I might be--but I think I'm going to find out by going without for a month or two.


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## Laudante (Jul 24, 2009)

*It would be convenient to make some divisions*

I think the issues debated here are indeed important, and it´s justified to be concerned about them. Very frequently the roaring lion finds an easy way to our soul in seemingly minor aspects of our lifes. 

First, I think there´s no biblical basis for saying that something that harms the body ALONE is sinful. I think this is the meaning of: "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." (Mt. 15:11). For example, to eat oily food, not to make physical excercise, etc. are not sins in themselves, because nothing that proceeds from them touches the spirit, and sin can only exist in the realm of the spirit. It is also in this sense that the kingdom of God is not food and drink. But Paul is not speaking here of the sinful cases in which food and drink become indeed a corruption of the soul. 

What I mean is that there are some sins that do touch the body and the spirit at the same time, and in that case they are sins in the full sense of the word. 
Among the whole spectrum of sins, I find four major divisions of those related with the body: gluttony, laziness, drunkness and fornication. 

Fornication comprises all those sins that defile the human body, basically desecrating its chastity and sacredness through sexual behavior. 

Laziness includes among other actions (or lack of actions, better said) sleeping too much, especially when it comes to the point of violating the "watch and pray with clear minds" commandment (1 Pet. 4:7, et al.) 

Now we come to the two classes of sins more directly dealt with in this thread. Gluttony is related with furnishing ourselves with usually innocent pleasant thinks, but not anymore in a moderate way that can contribute to the glory of God, but without self-control, and only to satisfy lower emotions, i.e. more like animals than like rational souls. 

Drunkness doesn´t only have to do with alcohol or other illicit substances consumption, but with anything that could attempt against SOBERNESS. There´s no time here to make a deep study into the concept of sobriety or soberness (sophrosyne), but it means literally "soundness of mind or judgment". It has to do also with dignity, austerity, awareness. Some kinds of music, and of course dance, can be as harming to these virtues as alcohol or any other drug. Also fornication includes the sin of drunkness most of the times. 

When pleasurable things become sinful? When the desire for them proceeds from our animal part, and not from our redeemed spirit. How can we notice when we reach that point? The same new born spirit will make us know it clearly, if it has really been awakened by the Spirit of God, through our conscience. Giving heed to it is another story. 

Sorry for the long lecture, but I would just like to tell you what I do regarding the issues dealt with here.

I, for example, love cigar and pipe smoking. I have never found a legitimate way to produce the doctrine that a moderate consumption of these goods is sinful in itself. Cigars, I smoke only two or three in a year, not only because they are expensive, but also because they can be cultural symbols of pretentiousness, power, vain glory, wealth, worldliness, etc., all of which are not suitable to a Christian. So the few times I do it, is in private. I also take seriously Rom. 14, which warns us against doing things that could potentially harm other´s souls. Pipe smoking has completely different cultural implications. It is related with tranquility, introspection, judgment, seriousness (J.S. Bach has a beatiful aria called "When my pipe I smoke", in which he uses pipe smoking as a metaphor for the brevity of life). So I´m not as much concerned with others watching me smoking a pipe. Many ancient puritans enjoyed their pipes and no one seemed to complain about it. Besides, believe it or not, it can have positive health effects. The General Surgeon in USA and Canada has published many statistical studies since the 70´s that show that pipe smokers tend to live more than those who don´t smoke anything at all. This is not really important, but I mention it just for those that cling to the health-problem argument against smoking. Obviously, intense cigarette smoking can have serious health effects and, above all, it can be very easily a serious case of gluttony (not related with drunkness, because it never affects sobriety). 

Regarding alcohol, I drink a couple of beers, and two or three glasses of wine or Cognac in a whole month. I never get even close to Aquinas´ limit.

Sorry again for the long post, but I´m a sort of compulsive writer...


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