# Prebyterians and the state of the Elect.



## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

My question is in regard to classical presbyterian stance : What of the security of the believer in Christ? Is it held that God "if you will" preserves them? What of apostates? Augustine later decided that a "real" Christian could under certain (and rather vague conditions we glean from Augustine) walk away and never come back...that said I do not wish to create two threads in one I want some good solid Godly PB feedback in regard to Five Point Calvinist on this issue. I always thought that whole.....well if they were really saved they would not have walked away was a cop out. Augustine felt it could happen. So, my five point friends! Can a true Christian lose his/her salvation?


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## Davidius (Mar 9, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> I always thought that whole.....well if they were really saved they would not have walked away was a cop out. Augustine felt it could happen.



The Apostle John didn't think it was a cop out, and he's much more important than Augustine!  

[bible]1 John 2:19[/bible]


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> The Apostle John didn't think it was a cop out, and he's much more important than Augustine!
> 
> [bible]1 John 2:19[/bible]


Hello David, Brudder, When I used cop out I was refering to people who duck the issue you know those types! I want a "feel" for what modern five point Calvinist hold on the issue. Pax Vobiscum


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> My question is in regard to classical presbyterian stance : What of the security of the believer in Christ? Is it held that God "if you will" preserves them? What of apostates? Augustine later decided that a "real" Christian could under certain (and rather vague conditions we glean from Augustine) walk away and never come back...that said I do not wish to create two threads in one I want some good solid Godly PB feedback in regard to Five Point Calvinist on this issue. I always thought that whole.....well if they were really saved they would not have walked away was a cop out. Augustine felt it could happen. So, my five point friends! Can a true Christian lose his/her salvation?



I don't know if Augustine taught that or not. I am aware that his views developed overtime so that one could legitimately say he was, at one time, a semi-pelagian. Go here for a full presentation of Augustine's views on the matter.

As to the matter whether there are real Christians who can actually fall away and never come back, we must remember that many may profess to believe but do not. Paul clearly says that we must believe from the heart Romans 10:9. It is clear that many who profess do not have their heart 'in the right place.' John 2:23-25 "Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, _for he knew what was in a man_."

Then consider these passages:

Matthew 7:23 "Then I will tell them plainly, _'I never knew you_. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

Matthew 15:13 ""Every plant that my heavenly Father _has not planted _will be pulled up by the roots."

John 10:26 "But you do not believe, because _you are not of My sheep_, as I said to you."

Jude 4 "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have _secretly slipped in _ among you. "

A true Christian, like a true Jew, is the good soil prepared by God (Matthew 18:23); has a circumcised heart (Romans 2:28-29) and truly believes in Christ (John 8:31). All others may pretend (like the Pharisees) and behave or speak like Christians but they remain 'sons of the devil.' (John 8:44) For one is either of the seed of the serpent or the seed of the woman. (cf. Genesis 3:15) And once you are the seed of the women (or born of God) you cannot fall away. (1 John 3:19; 5:18)

For more, please see the Fifth Head of Doctrine of the Canons of Dordrecht, especially the Rejection of Errors:

http://www.start.urclearning.org/2006/07/03/the-canons-of-dortdrecht/


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> I don't know if Augustine taught that or not. I am aware that his views developed overtime so that one could legitimately say he was, at one time, a semi-pelagian. Go here for a full presentation of Augustine's views on the matter.
> 
> As to the matter whether there are real Christians who can actually fall away and never come back, we must remember that many may profess to believe but do not. Paul clearly says that we must believe from the heart Romans 10:9. It is clear that many who profess do not have their heart 'in the right place.' John 2:23-25 "Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, _for he knew what was in a man_."
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input and links brother, I will read them tonight. For the time I still wish for more input on the issue since it is one that many very conservative and orthodox theologians have been divided over.


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2007)

Max:

I have found this work helpful: http://www.reformed.com/pub/fivepts.htm

Scroll down to the fifth point (on Perseverance).


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> Max:
> 
> I have found this work helpful: http://www.reformed.com/pub/fivepts.htm
> 
> Scroll down to the fifth point (on Perseverance).


Thank you for that link as well. I wonder a lot about this whole issue. In fact I was hesitant to start this as a thread! Really out of some nagging fear on my part that I do have questions about it and feared that bringing up these questions would be a cause for people to question my orthodoxy.


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> Thank you for that link as well. I wonder a lot about this whole issue. In fact I was hesitant to start this as a thread! Really out of some nagging fear on my part that I do have questions about it and feared that bringing up these questions would be a cause for people to question my orthodoxy.



I am certain that most, if not all of us, have been challenged in one way or another concerning our convictions of the truth of the perseverance of the saints. If we are honest, portions of scripture like Hebrews 6 & 10 (for example) seem hard to square with the idea of God's unchanging and preserving purpose in salvation. But if we are seeking the truth of God's word, study and searching of the same will help us to grow in our understanding of received doctrines and refine our thinking. 

Press on Max!


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> I am certain that most, if not all of us, have been challenged in one way or another concerning our convictions of the truth of the perseverance of the saints. If we are honest, portions of scripture like Hebrews 6 & 10 (for example) seem hard to square with the idea of God's unchanging and preserving purpose in salvation. But if we are seeking the truth of God's word, study and searching of the same will help us to grow in our understanding of received doctrines and refine our thinking.
> 
> Press on Max!


Thank you for those words brother! It is in point of fact, passages such as you made mention of in Hebrews that do challenge me. I am glad not to be alone in having problems and questions at times making certain passages that seem like contradictions "dovetail". Let God be true!


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> Thank you for those words brother! It is in point of fact, passages such as you made mention of in Hebrews that do challenge me. I am glad not to be alone in having problems and questions at times making certain passages that seem like contradictions "dovetail". Let God be true!



You are most welcome. 

The key to understanding Hebrews 6 & 10 in light of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints are (as others have pointed out) verses 6:9 & 10:39. I will let you draw the proper conclusions but clearly there are some assumptions on the part of the author that we need to wrestle with before we claim that these passages teach that someone can be saved from their sins and/or regenerate and then, utterly, fall away.


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> You are most welcome.
> 
> The key to understanding Hebrews 6 & 10 in light of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints are (as others have pointed out) verses 6:9 & 10:39. I will let you draw the proper conclusions but clearly there are some assumptions on the part of the author that we need to wrestle with before we claim that these passages teach that someone can be saved from their sins and/or regenerate and then, utterly, fall away.


This is true. For me when the Holy Ghost began to work in my life I had ups and downs and struggles with sins (still struggle with some) before I read more.......I feared I had put my hand to the plow....and looked back. It used to really scare me. Sometimes it still scares me! Do I love Him? Am I his? Christians have their own little sets of "nightmares" I was once told to calm down, if I were that worried about sin then the Holy Spirit was at work.


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## Greg (Mar 9, 2007)

Max,

Here's a link for a number of helpful articles addressing your question. As was already mentioned, many of us had those same questions you have.


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Greg said:


> Max,
> 
> Here's a link for a number of helpful articles addressing your question. As was already mentioned, many of us had those same questions you have.


Thank you for the link Greg. Thank you for your words as well.


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> Max:
> 
> I have found this work helpful: http://www.reformed.com/pub/fivepts.htm
> 
> Scroll down to the fifth point (on Perseverance).


Is there something different between Calvinism's Perseverance and the expression I have heard people use........once saved always saved?


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## Poimen (Mar 9, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> Is there something different between Calvinism's Perseverance and the expression I have heard people use........once saved always saved?



As a basic statement this is true but since it has often been used in less than accurate circles (e.g. antinomian; anti-Lordship) it would be best to avoid it. 

Once we are saved Christ keeps us because He promised not to lose us, but I am often reminded that this is not contrary to works but _unto_ works (Ephesians 2:10). Indeed the Arminians brought the charge of antinomianism against the Reformed and it was answered (contradicted) in the Canons, 5. RE 6.



> Who teach: That the doctrine of the certainty of perseverance and of salvation from its own character and nature is a cause of indolence and is injurious to godliness, good morals, prayers, and other holy exercises, but that on the contrary it is praiseworthy to doubt.
> 
> For these show that they do not know the power of divine grace and the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they contradict the apostle John, who teaches the opposite with express words in his first epistle: Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. And every one that hath this hope set on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure (I John 3:2, 3). Furthermore, these are contradicted by the example of the saints, both of the Old and the New Testament, who though they were assured of their perseverance and salvation, were nevertheless constant in prayers and other exercises of godliness.


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## etexas (Mar 9, 2007)

Poimen said:


> As a basic statement this is true but since it has often been used in less than accurate circles (e.g. antinomian; anti-Lordship) it would be best to avoid it.
> 
> Once we are saved Christ keeps us because He promised not to lose us, but I am often reminded that this is not contrary to works but _unto_ works (Ephesians 2:10). Indeed the Arminians brought the charge of antinomianism against the Reformed and it was answered (contradicted) in the Canons, 5. RE 6.


Funny that you put it that way brother, the first time I heard once saved always saved expression and thought it might be open to abuse was.........you guessed it my friend.......Ryrie! Than you for helping make a distinction.


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## AV1611 (Mar 10, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> Funny that you put it that way brother, the first time I heard once saved always saved expression and thought it might be open to abuse was.........you guessed it my friend.......Ryrie! Than you for helping make a distinction.



But I would want to just add that we do not become progressively more holy 



> *XIX.* We believe in the sanctification of God's people, the term sanctification signifying a separation and setting apart by and for God. This, in the child of God, is three-fold: i, by election by God the Father (Jude I); ii, by redemption by God the Son (John 17:19); and iii, by the almighty regenerating operation of God the Holy Ghost (Rom. 15:16.) We believe that the blessed Spirit is the Author of what is styled in Scripture the new creature, or creation (2 Cor. 5:17, Eph. 4:24), or new heart (Ezek. 36:26); being, in truth, an implantation of the Divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4), through which the child of God would, according to the inner man (Rom. 7:22), be holy as God is holy, and perfectly fulfil all the good pleasure of the Father's will; but groans being burdened, being constantly opposed by the contrary workings of the old man. (Rom. 7, Gal. 5:17.) *We reject the doctrine of progressive sanctification*, or that a child of God experiences such a gradual weakening, subduing, or rectification of the old nature, called in Scripture the old man (Eph. 4:22, Col. 3:9), or such a continued general improvement as shall make him at any time less dependent upon the communications of the Spirit and grace of Christ for all goodness, or less a poor, vile, wretched, helpless sinner in himself, and in his own estimation. (John 15: part of 5, 2 Cor. 3:5, Rev. 3:17.)



From the _Gospel Standard Articles of Faith _.


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