# Landmark Baptists



## TimV (Feb 17, 2005)

Is this another subject that has been done to death? I've had trouble lately with a fellow who's name I wont post at this time, although I might later.

There are a fairly large group of churches out here in Ca. that are totally Calvinistic in their soteriology but believe any church that practices things like infant baptism are all daughters of the Great Whore of Babylon.

This one fellow, who is based in the South, seems to have influence in some of the more orthodox churches. This influence seems to consist of, at least in part, emails between himself and housewives.

I started to engage him in debate, but he ran. His big thing is that Calvin, and by association ourselves, murdered Servetus because he held to "the Sonship" of Christ, and we hate that doctrine so much we tortured Servetus to death. Another gem was "Luther had his peasants go out and kill Baptists".

My first attempts to reason with him proved fruitless, in part because he refused as sources, anything written by anyone having anything to do with a paedobaptistic church or tradition.

The Bible of these people, at least out here, is a book by Bill Downing "The New Testament Church". I read it 20 years ago, and the man didn't even check his own footnotes, which were often taken from secondary sources and contraditory.

Have any of you read this book? And do any of you have experience with these people? 

Thanks


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## RamistThomist (Feb 17, 2005)

I have a little dealings with this topic. They do church history by selectively reading heretics.


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## turmeric (Feb 17, 2005)

Is this that Baptist Bride thing? There seem to be zillions of these things out there. You wonder why I'm an amillenialist...If we aren't in the time of the Great Apostacy, dude, what time is it?


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## TimV (Feb 17, 2005)

I am not familiar with this, sorry.

It's more a sort of Baptist apostolic succession, with little groups like the Bogomils, Paulations, Albesingians etc... that have existed outside the rest of the Church, which is pretty much 99.99% of all church members. They even rebaptise people baptised at adults in Presbyterian and other Reformed churches because they say that the origial wasn't valid sense is wasn't done in a New Testament Church.


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## Bryan (Feb 17, 2005)

Baptists Sucessionalism has large holes in it. When I read their stuff I have the impression that they feel a need to historically validate their beliefs, but instead of going to history as objectivly as possible they read their beliefs into it. So you have them accepting anyone into their history that held to certain beliefs of theirs while not giving any consideration as to what other beliefs that person or group held to. Since they often consider Adult Baptism and martyrdom marks of the true believer/group of believers they overlook all sorts of weird beliefs. 

Do a search online for the book by JM Carroll called "The Trail of Blood" . It's a lot of talk, not much evidance.

Bryan
SDG


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## heartoflesh (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TimV_
> ... They even rebaptise people baptised at adults in Presbyterian and other Reformed churches because they say that the origial wasn't valid sense is wasn't done in a New Testament Church.



Sounds like a church in my neck of the woods. In their statement of faith it reads: 

"....therefore, all valid baptism must be administered by the authority of a true New Testament Baptist church, and any so-called Baptist church which knowingly receives alien immersion is not a scriptural Baptist church, and its ordinances are not valid." http://www.mnvbc.org/


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## TimV (Feb 17, 2005)

Thanks, Bryan.

Rick, I think you've got one there. I guess it's a heady thing to be part of "The only true church" in the whole area.

I just wish they wouldn't run from debate, although I guess we should expect it from cultish ignorant people.


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)

> _ Originally posted by TimV_
> 
> His big thing is that Calvin, and by association ourselves, murdered Servetus



Even worse, we killed Christ, and that includes this fellow you speak of, wonder which he considers the greater transgression?:bigsmile:

[Edited on 2-18-2005 by lwadkins]


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## rmwilliamsjr (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bryan_
> Baptists Sucessionalism has large holes in it. When I read their stuff I have the impression that they feel a need to historically validate their beliefs, but instead of going to history as objectivly as possible they read their beliefs into it. So you have them accepting anyone into their history that held to certain beliefs of theirs while not giving any consideration as to what other beliefs that person or group held to. Since they often consider Adult Baptism and martyrdom marks of the true believer/group of believers they overlook all sorts of weird beliefs.
> 
> Do a search online for the book by JM Carroll called "The Trail of Blood" . It's a lot of talk, not much evidance.
> ...



i studied the issues for a Sunday School class on Calvin.
The page for that class is at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/lesson15_essay.html
perhaps there is something of value in my research footnotes.

And i second _Trail of Blood_ as being a very good example of these anti-Calvinist arguments from a very rightwing Baptist-separatists viewpoint.
it is at:
http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm
What is most interesting about the arguments is that he systematically uses heretics as his model. Apparently a case of "the enemy of my enemies is my friend" reasoning.

We had a discussion on this exact topic awhile back on TheologyWeb, i am not sure (as i am new here) if links to other discussion groups are allowed. it is at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24766 (please delete the link if it violates the rules)
i did a lot of research, including reading _Trail of Blood_ and several like sites for the postings in this thread.

btw there is a nice reformed reply to _trail of blood_ at:
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/pbh.htm


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## Puritanhead (Feb 27, 2005)

Calvin was right in condemning some of the continental baptists for their libertinism... Bear in mind that the English or British Baptist tradition was aloof from their theological errors, and most Baptists in the U.S. are heirs of the British Baptist tradition.

I'm not going to debate the charges that heretics were sought after. I can't give thumbs up to punishing heretics at any time in history by anything other than excommunication. We can't reconcile anything else with our Lord's commandments.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 27, 2005)

Here's another thread on this site with resource:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3415#pid40313


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## TimV (Feb 28, 2005)

Richard, thanks for your link

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm

To the Trail of Blood online.

Just reading through the outline on the first page, one wonders whether or not a frontal lobotomy is required either before or after subscribing to this school of thought. 

You could point out that Judaism was religio licita, that the Roman Empire didn't rule China, etc.. but it would probably bounce off those guys.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Mar 17, 2005)

There is a prominant Landmark Baptist in the League of the South (Greg Wilson). They are, as mentioned, commited to TULIP but denounce Calvin and Luther as Babylonians, and Protestantism as the wicked persecuter of Baptists.

Revisionist history like that makes me want to wear a bishop's robe and hat, move to Ireland, and chant while walking up a dark ivory tower. Pray for me.


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