# Christian Establishmentarianism Throughout the Ages



## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Oh, Be careful little eyes what you see!

Interesting resource with historical quotations, etc.

Cheers,


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 30, 2009)

Who runs the site?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

Are you sure this thread doesn't belong under Computers and Technology forum as an example of how not to design a web site?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Are you sure this thread doesn't belong under Computers and Technology forum as an example of how not to design a web site?





-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:05:37 EST-----



NaphtaliPress said:


> Who runs the site?



Not sure. That's why I said "Oh, Be careful little eyes!"


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## Whitefield (Jun 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Oh, Be careful little eyes what you see!
> 
> Interesting resource with historical quotations, etc.
> 
> Cheers,



You owe me two aspirins for the headache those graphics gave me.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 30, 2009)

It is pretty ugly.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

NaphtaliPress said:


> It is pretty ugly.



It's reassuring to know that we all have such important priorities!


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## Confessor (Jun 30, 2009)

I was hoping to see some comments that didn't have to do with the graphics of the site...

So what is a good working definition of establishmentarianism?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 30, 2009)

That's right; all establishment needs is another ugly site promoting it. And anonymously on top of that. 


Christusregnat said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > It is pretty ugly.
> ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism

Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

NaphtaliPress said:


> That's right; all establishment needs is another ugly site promoting it. And anonymously on top of that.
> 
> 
> Christusregnat said:
> ...



Glad you got my joke.

Cheers,

-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:17:45 EST-----



Semper Fidelis said:


> On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism
> 
> Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?





In the _English_ dictionary.


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## toddpedlar (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism
> 
> Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?



I think so... 

but here's what was once regarded as the longest place name in the word... would love to hear Derek Thomas pronounce it


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Confessor said:


> I was hoping to see some comments that didn't have to do with the graphics of the site...
> 
> So what is a good working definition of establishmentarianism?




This might be a good starting point:



> Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; yet he has authority, and it is his duty, to take order that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordainances of God duly settled, administrated, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he has power to call synods, to be present at them and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.



Cheers,


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

The original WCF is establishmentarian while the American revisions strip out those portions. I know Rev. Winzer faithfully represents the establishmentarian view on the PB.


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## Confessor (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks, Adam and Rich. Turns out I already knew what it was (and affirmed it) without linking the concept to its specific name.


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## Josiah (Jun 30, 2009)

Who owns this website?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> The original WCF is establishmentarian while the American revisions strip out those portions. I know Rev. Winzer faithfully represents the establishmentarian view on the PB.



It could be argued, however, that the revision merely represents a non-denominational establishment. I agree that it does preclude the original version of the establishment, and that the trajectory was toward what we see in the modern world. But, for a magistrate to be called a "nursing father" to the church, and still be required (in the catechetical explanations) to support and maintain the church is a mild form of establishmentarianism which every office bearer in revised WCF churches agrees to (barring, of course, exceptions).

Cheers,


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

I really haven't studied the issue in great depth but I know that Rev. Winzer has repeatedly noted that it really requires a Christian magistrate to work itself out in the way that the WCF intended and it would be difficult under our current form of government to have the current administration calling a Synod to resolve a theological controversy.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I really haven't studied the issue in great depth but I know that Rev. Winzer has repeatedly noted that it really requires a Christian magistrate to work itself out in the way that the WCF intended and it would be difficult under our current form of government to have the current administration calling a Synod to resolve a theological controversy.



I believe Rev. Winzer is right.

However, the same agument about the difficulty of such an arrangement would have seemed very real to the Christians in the late 200s, early 300s, and yet they were emancipated not long thereafter, with Nicea being called within a quarter of a century.

It reminds me of something I read recently about many of the presbyters at Nicea having mutilated faces, ears, etc. from the persecution throughout their lifetime, to then command kings and empires.

Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

How could a civil magistrate be a nursing father in a church? What role would you want your senator to play in your congregation? How would you safeguard poor dissenting baptists?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I really haven't studied the issue in great depth but I know that Rev. Winzer has repeatedly noted that it really requires a Christian magistrate to work itself out in the way that the WCF intended and it would be difficult under our current form of government to have the current administration calling a Synod to resolve a theological controversy.
> ...





True enough. Historically there are some questions about Constantine's motivations in calling the Council but I believe the Lord used the Providence, whatever his personal motivations, for the good of the Church. Not all was good out of that involvement as he introduced the idea of vestments into the Church as well but I don't want to get off track. 

I think the interesting discussion is how a government such as ours could deal with heresy or if it requires a radical Reformation. Part of me wouldn't mind seeing the government protecting people from heresy but they don't really have the tools necessary to detect it given our culture's captivity to non-Christian philosophies.

I'm not against the notion of Establishmentarianism in principle but am weary of certain types.


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?



I'm skating on thin ice here but I think the particular clauses with respect to the Magistrate could be modified a bit to talk about how the principle would operate when the Magistrate is completely hostile to the Christian religion. It doesn't seem like that's the pre-supposition in the original.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> How could a civil magistrate be a nursing father in a church? What role would you want your senator to play in your congregation? How would you safeguard poor dissenting baptists?



Pergamum,

The prophet's description is concerning the Messianic age being a time when the kings will be like nursing fathers to God's children. To see what a nursing father is like would not require much more than reading 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 & 2 Kings, concerning the "good things" that were done by kings.

What role would I want the senator to play in my congregation? I suppose that would depend on what my congregation was doing, teaching, promoting, etc.

A magistrate may safeguard poor dissenting baptists by helping them see the error of their ways 

Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?
> ...



So you would favor a 3rd revision on this point? Maybe something in between the original and the 1788 revisions?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?
> ...



I think the same could be stated concerning Romans 13. The principal that the magistrate is God's servant, and to administer His vengence is universally applicable, regardless of the personal or official status of a given magistrate. Just as the rules don't change for faithless husbands; the rules are the same. The church's task is to warn the adulterer, as well as the adulterous magistrate.

Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > How could a civil magistrate be a nursing father in a church? What role would you want your senator to play in your congregation? How would you safeguard poor dissenting baptists?
> ...



What methods would he employ?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?



It depends in what point of the spectrum one stands.

-----Added 6/30/2009 at 05:56:14 EST-----



Pergamum said:


> What methods would he employ?



Synods, councils, instruction, warning, rebuke; that would be a good start.

Were you hoping I'd go Zwinglian on you? 

Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?
> ...



"a good *start*"? GULP. 

If you start there, where will you end?





By the way, sensing the unpopularity and steam of that other word "theonomy," is your use of the term establishmentarianism a new trend for the same platform?


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> By the way, sensing the unpopularity and steam of that other word "theonomy," is your use of the term establishmentarianism a new trend for the same platform?



I spell God with a capital "g" 

Did you read the cite I sent? I introduced a thread on establishmentarianism throughout the centuries. I don't care if Theonomy is an unpopular term.

Cheers,


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## Prufrock (Jun 30, 2009)

For those looking for a good description of the Reformed establishmentarian conception, see Turretin's _Institutes_, Topic 18, Question 34. Be sure to read the whole chapter. It will sum it up nicely.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 30, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> For those looking for a good description of the Reformed establishmentarian conception, see Turretin's _Institutes_, Topic 18, Question 34. Be sure to read the whole chapter. It will sum it up nicely.



Do you have an electronic version? I can't find Turretin online.


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## Prufrock (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Do you have an electronic version? I can't find Turretin online.



I don't. As far as I know, there are no electronic editions of Turretin in English; only Latin. But, check your PM box.


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## Pergamum (Jun 30, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have an electronic version? I can't find Turretin online.
> ...



Can I check my PM box too, I would love to read this. ME TOO ME TOO!


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## Prufrock (Jun 30, 2009)

Some main points:

1. Although princes may not compel any to faith or religion, nevertheless they have the duty to establish, nourish and protect the true faith. While he may not compel any, he is, however, as a caring father to admonish and encourage his subjects to the faith, and to admonish those ministers delinquent in their duty, and also through external means to ensure good order in the church.

2. Even as bishops may not legislate nor plead in court, so the magistrate may not take upon himself the ministry of the word or sacrament; nor is he concerned with religion as it is internal and pertains to the conscience, but only externally, as to good order in the kingdom.

3. Private belief and conviction may not be punished; only public and outward teaching and subversion. Therefore, while the true faith and church is to be established (and no other religion), nevertheless not only are none to be compelled thereunto, but private belief and scruple (and practice) are outside his sphere.

4. Even as the magistrate is not to punish all sins, neither is he to punish all heresies, nor to punish all equally, remembering that his duties are to nurture his subjects, and to maintain good order, whereby only the most notorious and subversive, irreconcilable heretics are to be punished with extreme measures.


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## Hippo (Jun 30, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism
> 
> Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?



The mighty Wikipedia states that:

Longest word in English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

antidisestablishmentarianism is the longest non-coined and nontechnical word in the English dictionary.

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is the longest word in a major dictionary, which according to the Oxford English Dictionary is, "a factitious word alleged to mean 'a lung disease caused by the inhalation of very fine silica dust, causing inflammation in the lungs.'

While the longest word in a Shakespear play is "Honorificabilitudinitatibus"


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## Confessor (Jun 30, 2009)

189819 letters for the longest ever word?! That _has_ to be a typo.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 30, 2009)

Confessor said:


> 189819 letters for the longest ever word?! That _has_ to be a typo.



No..... that has to be ............... WIKIPEDIA!!


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## Romans 8 Verse 28 (Jul 1, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Are you sure this thread doesn't belong under Computers and Technology forum as an example of how not to design a web site?


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