# God`s Sovereignty Over Adam`s Fall



## Average Joey (Nov 28, 2006)

Did God directly or indirectly choose the fall of Adam?I am in a debate on another board about predestination and I claimed this was the case.I got a lot of the robot responses.You know,"So,God made us a bunch of robots,huh?".How should I respond to this?

Joe


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## AV1611 (Nov 28, 2006)

God ordained the fall to glorify himself through manifesting his grace and truth.


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## Average Joey (Nov 28, 2006)

AV1611 said:


> God ordained the fall to glorify himself through manifesting his grace and truth.




That`s what I said too.

But,what about the robot argument?

Thanks for the reply btw.

Joe


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## BobVigneault (Nov 28, 2006)

Joe, the answer to the robot smoke screen is Rom 9:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 

So we are just robots?
No, we are just lumps of clay, for this is what the scriptures say. God is sovereign over the lumps and may do as he pleases and is not under any obligation to anyone or anything.

Our dignity comes from being created in His image and being chosen as the recipients of the revelation of his divine power and majesty and the glory of his attributes.


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## Average Joey (Nov 28, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> Joe, the answer to the robot smoke screen is Rom 9:
> 
> 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
> 
> ...




They pratically ignore the whole chapter and when they must answer it they become very wishy washy with the scripture."What Paul means to say is...."


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## BobVigneault (Nov 28, 2006)

The history of the world is the story of the Creator and redemption. I believe Romans 3 captures the purpose of history when Paul says:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The manifestation of God's righteousness to the angels and to man seems to be the purpose behind creation and the fall. How else could we know and experience the full revelation of God - his nature and his power.


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## Average Joey (Nov 28, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> The history of the world is the story of the Creator and redemption. I believe Romans 3 captures the purpose of history when Paul says:
> 
> 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
> 
> The manifestation of God's righteousness to the angels and to man seems to be the purpose behind creation and the fall. How else could we know and experience the full revelation of God - his nature and his power.




Agreed.

One asked me how God would be glorified by the fall if He ordained it.I wrote back that through this and Christ`s revelation on the cross showed more power and glory to God then anything in all of His creation.How can a righteous,just,and holy God take a completely fallen creature(man) and put him in heaven,and do it justly!?Well,He did it and at the same time justice was done.

Joe


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## BobVigneault (Nov 28, 2006)

It sounds like you have answered well Joe. You have answered from scripture and that is the best you or anyone can do. You are up against a different worldview, one where man is the center of creation, history, and theology. You can't dislodge their logic from their first principle. If you have answered according to scripture then prayer that the Holy Spirit will change their first principle is all that's left to do. That and a gracious thank you for the opportunity to debate with them.


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## Average Joey (Nov 28, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> It sounds like you have answered well Joe. You have answered from scripture and that is the best you or anyone can do. You are up against a different worldview, one where man is the center of creation, history, and theology. You can't dislodge their logic from their first principle. If you have answered according to scripture then prayer that the Holy Spirit will change their first principle is all that's left to do. That and a gracious thank you for the opportunity to debate with them.



I feel like giving up debating with them now though.Not much else to say. 

I will reply at least one more time to tell them to read through past posts to see my answers to the same questions they keep asking.


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## tdowns (Nov 28, 2006)

*I love this.....*

"You are up against a different worldview, one where man is the center of creation, history, and theology."

That sums it up.


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## JohnV (Nov 28, 2006)

Joe:

I agree that you've stuck to Scripture pretty well. But whenever you defend a Scriptural doctrine by going into the lapsarian debate, then you have to expect that you're not going to go very far with it. You don't have to explain predestination to prove that God predestines. God states that He saved us before the foundation of the world, that is before the creation, before the Fall, before Christ died. Yet all these things are integral parts of His salvation which was determined from the start. 

Each one of these is a real occurrance. We cannot be robots if He sent His son in person to die for us. There must be some kind of intrinsic created value to man for God to do that. And Adam fell into sin, by God's will, yet without attributing it to God's doing. That's really deep, and goes far beyond robotics. And God knew all this, and yet loved man so as to decree that men would be saved for eternal bliss and glory. Why, if we were so little deserving of it? We definitely are not robots if God predestined us. 

Suddenly, in this vein, the robot argument has no weight at all. And I did this without an appeal to lapsarian theory; I just stuck to clear Biblical teachings. I think this way is better, for it doesn't limit you. And it also opens the doors for you, because when you do this type of defending, out of love for the straight-forward teachings of Scripture, then the Spirit begins to reveal more of it to you as you read and study. And this, in turn, makes you all the more ready to interact with others about these doctrines.


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## BertMulder (Nov 28, 2006)

JohnV said:


> Joe:
> 
> I agree that you've stuck to Scripture pretty well. But whenever you defend a Scriptural doctrine by going into the lapsarian debate, then you have to expect that you're not going to go very far with it. You don't have to explain predestination to prove that God predestines. God states that He saved us before the foundation of the world, that is before the creation, before the Fall, before Christ died. Yet all these things are integral parts of His salvation which was determined from the start.
> 
> ...



 

And also:

Romans does not say He created as as lumps of clay, but says, what if. Who art thou to reply against God?


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## BobVigneault (Nov 28, 2006)

BertMulder said:


> Romans does not say He created as as lumps of clay, but says, what if. Who art thou to reply against God?



Gen 2:7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

I get your point though Bert, so I would change my reply to "No, we are not made like robots but like lumps of clay."


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## docrob57 (Nov 29, 2006)

Average Joey said:


> Agreed.
> 
> One asked me how God would be glorified by the fall if He ordained it.I wrote back that through this and Christ`s revelation on the cross showed more power and glory to God then anything in all of His creation.How can a righteous,just,and holy God take a completely fallen creature(man) and put him in heaven,and do it justly!?Well,He did it and at the same time justice was done.
> 
> Joe



For what it's worth, I think this is entirely correct. In my (never) humble opinion, those who insist on libertarian free will have a major spiritual problem in that they cannot accept the fact that creation is for the glory of God and not man. We are not robots, but we are tools in the hands of God. The bottom line is that it really isn't all about us, and that is where the problem comes in for the Arminian (or worse).

In all this, it is always important for mew to keep in mind that the only reason that I understand ANY of this is because the Spirit has granted me that understanding, and that for God's purposes, not for my owm glory.


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## JohnV (Nov 29, 2006)

The problem with the 'robot' idea is that this makes the atonement of Christ of little value. If we were robots, then what would be the real reason Christ died for men? We must have a view of God's creation and salvation that respects God as God and men as men. If God did not predestine, then God is not God; and if men are mere robots, then men are not men. But Christ became a real man while being real God in order to reconcile man to God.


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## BertMulder (Nov 29, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> Gen 2:7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
> 
> I get your point though Bert, so I would change my reply to "No, we are not made like robots but like lumps of clay."




He made us FROM lumps of clay.

The canons of Dordt:



> Article III/IV 1. Man was originally formed after the image of God. His understanding was adorned with a true and saving knowledge of his Creator, and of spiritual things; his heart and will were upright; all his affections pure; and the whole man was holy; but revolting from God by the instigation of the devil, and abusing the freedom of his own will, he forfeited these excellent gifts; and on the contrary entailed on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity and perverseness of judgment, became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in his affections.





> Article III/IV 16. But as man by the fall did not cease to be a creature, endowed with understanding and will, nor did sin which pervaded the whole race of mankind, deprive him of the human nature, but brought upon him depravity and spiritual death; so also this grace of regeneration does not treat men as senseless stocks and blocks, nor take away their will and its properties, neither does violence thereto; but spiritually quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully bends it; that where carnal rebellion and resistance formerly prevailed, a ready and sincere spiritual obedience begins to reign; in which the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consist. Wherefore unless the admirable author of every good work wrought in us, man could have no hope of recovering from his fall by his own free will, by the abuse of which, in a state of innocence, he plunged himself into ruin.


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## BJClark (Nov 30, 2006)

Average Joey said:


> Did God directly or indirectly choose the fall of Adam?I am in a debate on another board about predestination and I claimed this was the case.I got a lot of the robot responses.You know,"So,God made us a bunch of robots,huh?".How should I respond to this?
> 
> Joe



I believe God preordained Adam and Eve to sin, To show His GLORY!! They didn't make a wrong Choice, they made the ONLY choice they could as created beings...to sin..why? though they were created in the 'image' of Go, they were not created to be God or even god's.

They were not created to BE perfect, though they were created perfectly, lest none of us would need God at all.


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## BobVigneault (Nov 30, 2006)

Here is something I posted a couple years ago on the subject of how Adam, created in righteousness, could sin. These thoughts were prompted from reading some quotes from Dabney.

First off it's impossible to find an analogy in our experience because this problem is peculiar to only Adam and Lucifer - each were created with holy and God-ward hearts (desires). They were truly righteous in their every inclination and no tug from a fallen nature.

Most probably God righteously witheld his


> perpetual indwelling and superintendence of infinite wisdom and grace, guarding the infinite and fallible attention of the soul against sin. Dabney



In this sense God is the cause but not the culpable cause of sin.

Satan and Adam were both mutable and they placed their desires in something besides God. This was not a sin because everything God made was good. The sin took place when the desire for the thing grew stronger than the desire to obey the revealed will of God. This is where the initial sin took place and the soul was corrupted. When we desire something above God's revealed will, that is lust.



> ...while righteousness is a positive attribute, incipient sin is a privative trait of human conduct. The mere absence of an element of active regard for God's will, constitutes a disposition or volition wrong. Now, while the positive requires a positive cause, it is not therefore inferable that the negative equally demands a positive cause. To make a candle burn, it must be lighted; to make it go out, it need only be let alone. Dabney


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## Average Joey (Nov 30, 2006)

Is it just me or does man look better off in the last chapter of Revelation then we did at his creation in the garden?Plus,we are now considered adopted sons of God.Thatsounds like a much more intimate relationship with God then Adam and Eve had in the beginning.So,in other words,God`s ordaination of us to sin worked out not only for His glory through His Son,but also it worked in man`s favor also.I`m not treading on shaky ground am I?


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