# Proof Texts and Deductive Arguments for The Pastoral Prayer



## Julio Martinez Jr (Jul 24, 2012)

This is largely an issue over the second Commandment and the RPW. Given the argument that all order of worship is based on the RPW, how does one argue for the Pastoral Prayer? Having some talks with non-denominational persons—well one person really—I am having some trouble finding proof texts that support this line of thinking, e.g., deductively arguing for the RPW and its application. They obviously espouse a sharp distinction over the older covenant texts via Dispensational theology, but is there a way to argue for the RPW and its application of the Pastoral Prayer? Any help would be useful. Thanks.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 24, 2012)

How about Act. 4:24-30?

"They raised their voice [singular] to God with one accord..." How did they do this? Were they all in unison intoning (maybe under Spirit-inspiration?) the following? Were they all, one after the other, praying in like sentiments? Or the exact same words?

I think it's most reasonable that they were being led in prayer, and that they all entered in by heart (one accord) with the prayer.

It is manifestly obvious that prayer is a part of worship, and formal worship at that. If it was necessary to prove it, perhaps 1Cor.11:4 and 14:14 is sufficient, or 1Tim.2:8. Remember 1Cor.14:40, whence all things are to be done decently and in order. So, one may pray, and all others participate under his leadership.

And it is the minister's official responsibility to lead the congregation in worship; it is his main work, cf. Act.2:42 and 6:4, prayer and the ministry of the Word. When more appropriate and needful than in the public worship of God?


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## Julio Martinez Jr (Jul 24, 2012)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I think it's most reasonable that they were being led in prayer, and that they all entered in by heart (one accord) with the prayer.


Is there a particular text that prescribes this line of thinking?



Contra_Mundum said:


> it is manifestly obvious that prayer is a part of worship, and formal worship at that. If it was necessary to prove it, perhaps 1Cor.11:4 and 14:14 is sufficient, or 1Tim.2:8. Remember 1Cor.14:40, whence all things are to be done decently and in order. So, one may pray, and all others participate under his leadership.


The individual and myself are in complete agreement here. The issue however is how this may apply the RPW as normative under the leadership of an elder in the _Pastoral Prayer_. 



Contra_Mundum said:


> And it is the minister's official responsibility to lead the congregation in worship; it is his main work, cf. Act.2:42 and 6:4, prayer and the ministry of the Word. When more appropriate and needful than in the public worship of God?


I think this is more getting to the point. However I am concerned that he might retort that my presuppositions here are getting in the way of an exegetical treatment of these verses along with other assumption you previously mentioned, as noted above (see first block quote, "It's most _reasonable_...").


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 24, 2012)

Julio Martinez Jr said:


> Is there a particular text that prescribes this line of thinking?


Well, brother,
I'm not sure which of the other options I suggested for interpreting Act.4:24ff your friend might go for, or if he'd just come up with something of his own. Where does Scripture give us an different kind of example or instance? Act.20:36 has Paul knelt down and prayed with them all. If he's of a mind to be resistant, because he's got a particular "kind" of argument or prooftext that he's waiting to hear, there's just no pleasing some people. I think this text, and the others I offered make a fairly good argument, provided one is inclined to receive it.

There are some folks who, when presented with the three or four options I offered (despite what seems "outlandish" vs. "sober," and despite an unwillingness themselves to propose some other explanation that makes better, or even just-as-reasonable sense) posture themselves as undecided, as if they're too spiritual to make a commitment to a reasonable sense, when there are ANY vying interpretations. Some people just want worship to be guided, not led; want lots of "leadership-participation" rather than followership-participation; and so they tend to read every place in the the parts-of-the-Bible-they-are-willing-to-receive-as-authoritative as confirmatory of their notions.

I fear such folks are coming from a "bad place," for whatever reason--from a bad church experience, or having had poor teachers who gave only partial explanations, or they've adopted an attitude that if God wants them to believe something he makes it infallibly clear to them by tailoring all explanations to their preset certainty meter. These come too close to Paul's description of a "divisive man," Tit.3:10. These are not especially teachable people. I do not assume that your Bible-study partner is like that, but presently I'm not seeing a bona fide deficiency in my presentation, and the potential objections you are raising seem empty of any real challenge, just maybe not "open-and-shut."




Julio Martinez Jr said:


> The individual and myself are in complete agreement here. The issue however is how this may apply the RPW as normative under the leadership of an elder in the Pastoral Prayer.


Again, this is an issue of "who should lead worship?"


Julio Martinez Jr said:


> I think this is more getting to the point. However I am concerned that he might retort that my presuppositions here are getting in the way of an exegetical treatment of these verses along with other assumption you previously mentioned, as noted above (see first block quote, "It's most reasonable...").


To which I reply, "OK, let's hear your exegetical rebuttal to my proposal. And we can go from there..."


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