# RC...not the dad, not the cola...but RC Jr.



## Richard King (Oct 26, 2005)

I have recently listened to some of RC Sproul Jrs. basement tapes and thoroughly enjoyed them. I was wondering what the people on this list thought of the ideas and more importantly the teaching and theology of RC JUNIOR.


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## heartoflesh (Oct 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Richard King_
> I have recently listened to some of RC Sproul Jrs. basement tapes and thoroughly enjoyed them. I was wondering what the people on this list thought of the ideas and more importantly the teaching and theology of RC JUNIOR.



Not sure about his theology, but I don't think his voice is as cool as Sr's.


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 26, 2005)

I'm not too familiar with much of his material, except that he unfortunately holds to paedocommunion, even though he fortunately does not agree with the FV crowd on the surrounding issues.


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> I'm not too familiar with much of his material, except that he unfortunately holds to paedocommunion, even though he fortunately does not agree with the FV crowd on the surrounding issues.



From what I have heard, he does hold to PC. The RPCGA does not allow for PC within their ranks, hence RC jr. does not practice what he preaches!


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 26, 2005)

Neither Sproul is a strict RPW guy are they? One of them I heard was not opposed to incense (sorry, some years back and don't recall the details), and of course the holy day question....


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## fredtgreco (Oct 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Neither Sproul is a strict RPW guy are they? One of them I heard was not opposed to incense (sorry, some years back and don't recall the details),



that is true of both


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## brymaes (Oct 27, 2005)

I actually enjoy most of what I have read from Jr. In particular, I am sympathetic to his agrarian convictions. Although he is a little more separatistic than I like.

His church, St. Peters, is quite ceremonial-liturgical, if I understand things correctly. He is a proponent of "covenant renewal" worship, and accordingly rejects Puritan RPW.

He is postmillenial, but not Theonomic, which I can respect.


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## brymaes (Oct 27, 2005)

> Not sure about his theology, but I don't think his voice is as cool as Sr's.



No, it's not.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 27, 2005)

he comes across angry to me. His Dad whom I have to thank for singlehandedly educating me, making me read, "Augustine, Plato, Calvin, Luther", comes across much more patient, fatherly and methodical.


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## heartoflesh (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> ...His Dad whom I have to thank for singlehandedly educating me, making me read, "Augustine, Plato, Calvin, Luther", comes across much more patient, fatherly and methodical.



It's all in the voice.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 27, 2005)

I met the man once...a run-in in a homeschool bookstore. (embarrassingly, I thought he was working there...had never seen a picture of him before...LOL). Hubby spoke with him for a bit while I shopped (yes, I continued shopping after knowing who he was...wanted hubby to have that time with another man). Hubby found him to be very down to earth. He definately was not the angry sort. I've listened to him on some Vision Forum CDs and found him to speak very well and to hit right on the issues. We've been reading one of his books and are enjoying it.


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## Arch2k (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> *Neither Sproul is a strict RPW guy are they?* One of them I heard was not opposed to incense (sorry, some years back and don't recall the details), and of course the holy day question....



I appreciate Sproul senior, but this is definately one bone I have to pic with him.


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## heartoflesh (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> ...



Does Sproul articulate his position regarding RPW anywhere? In any book, paper, tape?


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## daveb (Oct 27, 2005)

I read the Highlands Study Center Squiblog that he writes and find it quite good.


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## wsw201 (Oct 27, 2005)

> I actually enjoy most of what I have read from Jr. In particular, I am sympathetic to his agrarian convictions. Although he is a little more separatistic than I like.



He spoke at my church years ago and the "separatist" and "agrarian" views came out big time. Very much against a church incorporating, home schooling only (church members should be disciplined if they do anything but home school) and seems to have a view of the family that is very patriarchal.


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## Arch2k (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> ...



Not that I am aware of. I do know that he is non-EP, uses instruments, and has a choir in his church. Incense poses an even bigger violation In my humble opinion.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 27, 2005)

Well, Jeff, Calvin held incense to be in the same category as organs and pianos. I don't think it is "any worse," but it is definitely NOT good.


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## fredtgreco (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> 
> He spoke at my church years ago and the "separatist" and "agrarian" views came out big time. Very much against a church incorporating, home schooling only (church members should be disciplined if they do anything but home school)



It was this view on schooling that prevented his acceptance into a PCA Presbytery.


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 27, 2005)

Not that I am able, but I agree with his theory on schooling the child. I suppose he would say that I am in sin in that regard.


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## brymaes (Oct 27, 2005)

> Very much against a church incorporating



As is his denomination, the RPCGA, which denounces church incorporation as Erastianism.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Well, Jeff, Calvin held incense to be in the same category as organs and pianos. I don't think it is "any worse," but it is definitely NOT good.



Gabriel, I agree about the organs, but pianos weren't around until about 1700. Did Calvin despise all instruments? (pitchpipes even?) I can't remember. 

It's a funny thing. I trained as a church organist and played in churches long before I was saved. Now, I don't want to hear an organ in worship at all.

Vic


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## Arch2k (Oct 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by wsw201_
> ...



Interesting.


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## alwaysreforming (Oct 27, 2005)

I have heard RC Jr. speak on a few occassions, and I found him to be VERY good. 

He is a huge proponent of catechising small children, which I think is great, and on a personal side, I know he has a young daughter who has very special needs (I can't remember what the problem is), and when I've heard him speak about this issue it comes across very plainly that this man is the "real deal", making the most of what providence God has consigned him to, and doing all he can to glorify God by means of it. 

Sure, maybe his theology isn't going to get agreement by every theologian out there or on this board, but in my opinion, by the way he conducts his life, ministry, and family, he is a hero.


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## Saiph (Oct 27, 2005)

I just checked out the RPCGA web site. There seems to be no church in Colorado. I was interested in adding to the list in my Church hunt.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 27, 2005)

Isn't Matt McMahon part of the same (RPCGA)? (yep, he's listed as is A Puritan's Mind...okay, waiting for Matt to come back...have questions)

Pretty much, I'm in line with him on education and partriarchial families. I don't understand the deal with incorporating, so I can't comment there.

None listed in PA either. Would have liked to have added them in our hunt also. Guess the OPC is going to be the best we can get...and I'm not complaining.



[Edited on 10-27-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## wsw201 (Oct 27, 2005)

> I don't understand the deal with incorporating, so I can't comment there.



It has to do with the Church subjecting itself to the State for recognition.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 27, 2005)

ahh, okay. I can understand that.


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## Richard King (Oct 27, 2005)

Regarding public schooling. You better check out what goes on there. You might agree very much with RC JR. 
I substituted in public schools most of last year thinking about going back into teaching. ( I taught in the seventies) After seeing what all the high tech equipment was used for I was very disillusioned. Every class here has cable tv and computers with internet access. 
I have had teachers leave me notes saying... "bargain with the kids, if they behave and do their work for part of the class time...reward them by letting them watch MTV." 
Some teachers in certain parts of town allow the kids to watch BET network as a bargaining chip and some allow cartoons. (cartoons aren't like they were in the hanna-barbera days) Believe it or not this is done more in the classes with "problem kids" who are failing at learning. Also the internet had filters to keep out p0rn but the time was largely used by kids to look up websites of famous rappers which ends up being profane and perverse anyway. Dpn't even get me started on cheerleaders and pep squads and their carwashes for fundraisers that draw leering old geezers etc.

Public school teaching is a babysitting job and the really idealistic and dedicated and sincere teachers burn out or settle for helping the three or four kids who apply themselves. Our culture is dying and separatists may be on to something.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 27, 2005)




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## LadyFlynt (Oct 27, 2005)

As I stated, I DO agree with RC on homeschooling. Public school is not an option for our family.


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## LawrenceU (Oct 27, 2005)

I was able to spend a good bit of time with RC, Jr. several years ago in Kansas at a discussion forum. He would most likely not remember me, but I came away very favourably impressed. On many issues we line up well. On others, well I'm not a Presbyterian so that will clue you in


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## Myshkin (Oct 28, 2005)

Jr.'s book "Tearing Down Strongholds" is a good read.

How much of Jr.'s focus/emphasis (separatism, agrarianism, homeschooling, etc.) is a reflection of his dad, and how much of it is him going in a different direction? Sr. does not come across as dogmatic about these issues, and I am not even sure that he agrees with him on them.

Sproul Sr. makes learning theology exciting, as he is methodical, clear, and concise. He was instrumental in my conversion and I can imagine he was for many on the PB.


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## Arch2k (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> I was able to spend a good bit of time with RC, Jr. several years ago in Kansas at a discussion forum. He would most likely not remember me, but I came away very favourably impressed. On many issues we line up well. On others, well I'm not a Presbyterian so that will clue you in



Just out of curiosity, where was it? It wasn't in Wichita at Evenagel Presbyterian Church was it?


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> As I stated, I DO agree with RC on homeschooling. Public school is not an option for our family.



You agree with him that this isn't within the realm of Christian liberty?


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

Liberty, fine...but liberty should not cause the neglect of our obligations. In this case the obligation to bring up our children in the admonition of the Lord, the obligation to make certain that our children receive a christian education rather than a pagan one with christianity on the side, and the obligation of father's being the authority over their families. You relinguish all rights to your child as soon as they step foot through the door of the government schools as many families have found out the hard way.

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Liberty, fine...but liberty should not cause the neglect of our obligations. In this case the obligation to bring up our children in the admonition of the Lord, the obligation to make certain that our children receive a christian education rather than a pagan one with christianity on the side, and the obligation of father's being the authority over their families. You relinguish all rights to your child as soon as they step foot through the door of the government schools as many families have found out the hard way.
> 
> [Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]



Well, should there be Church discipline if someone sends their children to Public schools?


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm admittedly on the line about that. The things we need more of first:

1) The government to get their nose out of our families in the rest of the states

2) More churches to provided a way for families that for one reason or another think they "can't" homeschool or school through the church.

If we particularly fix #2 or are already in a church that does this, then yes, I do believe accountability is in order. If I sent my child to a strictly Islamic school, I would expect my husband to be called out onto the carpet. Why not the same for sending a child to a school that teaches atheism, homosexuality, paganism, wicca, feminism, etc?


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I'm admittedly on the line about that. The things we need more of first:
> 
> 1) The government to get their nose out of our families in the rest of the states
> ...



Ok, lets take it a step further then.

Why then should we not discipline those that join the military in defending a secular, liberal, and bassical heathen country?


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

That one would depend on if you are a pacifist or if you believe you should be involved in trying to change the government back to a republic.

I believe we have the right to defend our homes and our land. The military is part of that.


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> That one would depend on if you are a pacifist or if you believe you should be involved in trying to change the government back to a republic.
> 
> I believe we have the right to defend our homes and our land. The military is part of that.



So you are saying "military enlistment" is in the realm of Church discipline?

I don't know of any reformed creeds that are pacifist, but my point is that it seems as if this is in the realm of conscience.


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## fredtgreco (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I'm admittedly on the line about that. The things we need more of first:
> 
> 1) The government to get their nose out of our families in the rest of the states
> ...



What about using an atheist or Muslim as a tutor to teach your children Arabic? A Jew to teach them Hebrew so that they could read the OT in the original language? A Chinese Buddhist who teachers advanced calculus to a homeschool group?

Better yet - a homeschool group that includes Adventists? Christian Scientists? Catholics?

Are all these disciplinable offenses?

Please don't answer that homeschooling is better, or that it is not as bad as public schools. I'm really not interested in that debate - we homeschool and I personally think that public schools do a horrible job of education, in addition to the corrupt morals. What I am interested as an elder is in wat we call sin, and what I am obligated to enforce by means of discipline.

That is the important issue, and that is what caused the rejection of RC Jr. Not the merits of homeschooling vs. public schooling.

[Edited on 10/28/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> Better yet - a homeschool group that includes Adventists? Christian Scientists? Catholics?
> ...



Or even worse, a Baptist. 

It scares me that I need the approval of the Church on deciding my child's education. I send mine to private school, and I am sure plenty would object to the CHurch that runs it.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

I believe, I basically stated, that military service is an act of conscience.

I'm not debating the hs vs ps either. I also stated I was on the line on that issue (calling one a sin) due to various other issues that creep up. For our household, yes, I believe it would be a sin to send my children to public school. A public school does more than teach calculus and language. If I hired someone for those specific reasons, then that would be all that was taught. However, that is not what happens in the government school system. They train a child how to think in a manner that runs over and is destructive of the belief system of the Christian, and of several other religions for that matter, by promoting other various "religious beliefs", "lifestyles", and universalism.

On the matter of co-ops...I am not part of any co-op that permits mormons, adventists, oneness pentacostals, christian scientists, catholics, etc. We have a statement of faith that must be signed. We are not all reformed, however, there is a certain amount of agreement that is expected. I also do not place my child in every class available and those classes are focused on the topic at hand, not on training a child's thought processes that affect what he accepts to be truth. I teach sewing, that is all that is taught. I do not discuss theology, various religions, or universalism in my class...I teach them simply what they need to know to put a dress together.

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## fredtgreco (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I believe, I basically stated, that military service is an act of conscience.
> 
> I'm not debating the hs vs ps either. I also stated I was on the line on that issue (calling one a sin) due to various other issues that creep up. For our household, yes, I believe it would be a sin to send my children to public school. A public school does more than teach calculus and language. If I hired someone for those specific reasons, then that would be all that was taught. However, that is not what happens in the government school system. They train a child how to think in a manner that runs over and is destructive of the belief system of the Christian, and of several other religions for that matter, by promoting other various "religious beliefs", "lifestyles", and universalism.
> ...



Colleen,

I understand what you are saying, and I have some sympathy, but how could something be a sin for you and not for me? Is sin relative?

I don't think so. That is why I would prefer to speak of the wisdom of how one educates one's children, rather than assign sin.


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

(LadyFlynt goofed and edited someone else's post...my apologies)

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

No, I don't believe sin is relative...that is why I do lean that direction. However, I do recognize certain issues that arise through no fault of the parent. Thus the reason I am "on the line" with this particular topic.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

ooops!


did I press a wrong button?!


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

The only class I can think of that my children are in led by an armenian is Health and Safety...as stated: they are not in her care the entire day or being trained to think like her. I am still in charge of their education. I would not be if I sent them to a government school. Co-op is not a free for all...I carefully consider what class I am sending my child into. Latin was being taught by our minister. TOG last year was being taught by women from our Reformed church. I have intentionally kept my children out of the Character First class as I do not wish them to taught by a Gothardite. I would have kept them out of the biology class for the same reason (they were not old enough for the class, therefore it did not matter).

This is where discernment comes in. And with co-ops, unlike with the public schools, you have the option as to what you choose to do. Time in a co-op is limited...I have my children the entire week to train their minds. Not true of the government schools. One of the intents of the government school system (not neccessarily an individual teacher here and there) is to undermine the authority and spiritual teachings of the parent. So unless there were extenuating circumstances or ignorance, I do not see why a Christian parent would place their child in one. Please realize, I grew up in various public schools. I've seen the teachings, experienced their various forms of attempting to retrain our thinking away from that which we had at home, and I also experienced physical abuse there. There is no way I would leave one of my children in the government's hand knowing what they are capable of.

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> The only class I can think of that my children are in led by an armenian is Health and Safety...as stated: they are not in her care the entire day or being trained to think like her. I am still in charge of their education. I would not be if I sent them to a government school. Co-op is not a free for all...I carefully consider what class I am sending my child into. Latin was being taught by our minister. TOG last year was being taught by women from our Reformed church. I have intentionally kept my children out of the Character First class as I do not wish them to taught by a Gothardite. I would have kept them out of the biology class for the same reason (they were not old enough for the class, therefore it did not matter).
> 
> This is where discernment comes in. And with co-ops, unlike with the public schools, you have the option as to what you choose to do. Time in a co-op is limited...I have my children the entire week to train their minds. Not true of the government schools. One of the intents of the government school system (not neccessarily an individual teacher here and there) is to undermine the authority and spiritual teachings of the parent. So unless there were extenuating circumstances or ignorance, I do not see why a Christian parent would place their child in one.
> [Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]



Two points here LF. First of all, it is good that you have liberty to discern. It is not the Church's job to do that for you. Secondly, it is neither the CHurch's job to understand why a parent would send their children to public skool, watch sponge bob, or eat too much sugar. What you are talking about here, borders on the mideival Catholic Church.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

I understand what you are trying to say. 

I think parents sending their child to public school shows a lack of discernment in most cases. I do believe there is a difference between church discipline and accountability also. You will have to forgive me, I am new to how Reformed churches handle things to begin with.

Question, if you sent your child to a religious Islamic school, you would not to ever expect to be called into question?

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## raderag (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I understand what you are trying to say. Question, if you sent your child to a religious Islamic school, you would not to ever expect to be called into question?



That is an interesting hypothetical, but one that I can't imagine being true. I suppose if I lived in Iran, Palestine, or Saudi Arabia, it might be a good question. The answer would depend on what it mean to attend one of these schools. The secular public schools do not demand that you pledge allegiance to its religion. 

Having said that, the Church, reformed included, is doing very little to help those that have no choice (i.e. the poor). I don't mean to sound insulting, but I am incredulous that Christians take this view, when most Christians have little or no choice about this. (hint most Christians are working class, and many have one parent) 
Aside from telling people how bad they are for sending their kids to public School, what can we do to make the situation better?

My Church has founded a school that tries to be a school for everybody including the poor.
I haven't seen too many like it. Tuition is based on a sliding scale of income, and everybody pays something.

http://www.cityschooltexas.com/



> What if there existed a school that"¦
> 
> - Provides an education that is as unique as your child.
> - Acknowledges the key role of the family in educating children.
> ...



[Edited on 10-28-2005 by raderag]

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by raderag]


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

You hit on the point I made before...and the reason I won't totally jump the line.

I DO understand the extenuating circumstances more than you can imagine.

There are churches that are making headway in this area. There are also ministries that are attempting to make headway in this area as well (HSLDA's widows' fund, Vision Forum-see the tape Defending the Fatherless and their Uniting Church and Home Series). I would love to see this continue till there is NO need for a christian to send their child to the public school.


As a side note on a child pledging allegience to certain ideas in the government schools...do you realize the consequences of NOT accepting those ideas that some of the students face? I've been slapped in the face by a teacher for refusing to state that I accepted the teacher's beliefs on homosexuality.

[Edited on 10-28-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## Pilgrim (Oct 28, 2005)

Is RC Jr's position Homeschool only, or does he allow for Christian schools?


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 28, 2005)

That, I do not know.


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## LawrenceU (Oct 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> ...



No, it was at McPherson, Ks. At the school there. They advertised all over the area and there were only seven men there, including RC. We were the only ones under 45 years of age. We were also by far the most theologically conservative men there. Shoot, one fellow didn't even believe in the ressurection. I am not sure why he was even there. Our discussions were interesting and fun!


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