# Confused on Love, and Prayer



## Reformed Roman (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm really confused honestly. On how to approach certain things, I was wondering if you all could shed some light here, clearly I'm being unloving and prideful, and have a heart issue, I just want to know more and address it,

A friend texted me telling me that her cousin got into an accident, and that everyone should pray for her.

Then it came across my mind, Why pray? Once again, doubts from satan entering my mind. Of course God using our prayers many times as a means to make His will happen. And many times without prayers God wouldn't have allowed something to happen. But then it came in my mind, well how much does it really matter? Will my prayers really mean that much in this situation??? That when I'm extremely busy with work, school, and other things that I should take a lot of time to labor in prayer over this? How often would you spend praying in a situation like this?


Furthermore, if God doesn't even love everybody, why should I have this extreme love for someone else? If God doesn't love them why should I? Because God loved a sinful person like me? I think the exclusivity of God's love really tends to make me want to be exclusive with my love too. I know it's wrong. For sure. But I do it. Because of this it creeps into my prayer life and I am not as caring as I should be.

Any thoughts on prayer? And how you think of prayer? How often you tend to pray in situations like that? Why to pray? And any thoughts on God's love, and how we should love as well?

I just think even when you have some answers and even when your experiencing doubts, I think it's best to combat it with as much truth as you can. Not to mention I thought it would be a good discussion as well.


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## Andres (Mar 14, 2011)

I think (if I'm understanding you correctly) I struggled with some of your same concerns at one point. When I become a Calvinist and came to understand predestination and the sovereignty of God, I was confused on how our prayers affected things in this world. However, it's important to remember that God ordains both the means and the end to everything. Therefore, yes, it's true God has already decreed from before the foundation of the world that the young lady would get into an accident, and He also decreed how her recovery would go. But He has also ordained the means to that end, and that includes your prayers. 

As for the fact that you didn't want to pray because you were busy with other things, I think you already admitted that your response was prompted by a selfish heart. So you may not know the young lady, but if you really are a good friend to the person who texted you, then a loving thing to do would be to pray for their request. Remember James 5:16 - "The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

As for the question of praying for someone that God doesn't love, I would seriously question how you are privy to the knowledge of whom God loves and doesn't love.


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## Tim (Mar 14, 2011)

We are commanded to pray, are we not?


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## Christopher88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Zach,
Do you struggle with the concept and practice of prayer regularly? Or are you struggling with prayers for people you do not know?


The one thing of being of this "young reformed crowd" is that we have knowledge of God but God has not yet been placed on our hearts. This is a true worship disorder, its the idolatry of theology. Our theology should impact our hearts not just our minds, but like you I'm young and lack wisdom. Reading your post, I would say these are issues that need to brought to your Pastor and men in your church. 

Your humility in confession, is a good sign that God is working in you. Now just bring this to the discipline of your church elders. They can help you in their wisdom.


Off the subject, sort of. 


"Our theology should impact our hearts not just our minds" I mentioned this in my post because your statements sound like this is part of the problem that is hindering your prayers, and possibly your prayer life. Do not be discouraged, your not the only Christian to struggle with this area. Its a battle that needs to be fought with truth.


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## Reformed Roman (Mar 16, 2011)

Yes and no. Since doubts have plagued me at times, yes, I do struggle with the practice of prayer. Included in that is praying for others, as I don't really think it will make much of an impact. Why pray for something when God ordained it to happen? 

Why pray for the victims in Japan right now? Should I love them? Didn't God in His sovereignty want this to happen? If God didn't love them, and die for them, why should I love them? I understand I was just like them, and dead in my sins, but these are all of the questions that have been posed to me, whether from my flesh, or the devil.


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## Andres (Mar 16, 2011)

Zach, I'm not sure where you are picking up on this idea that we are only supposed to love other Christians, but it's not at all biblical. In fact, Christ said the opposite of what you are saying:



> But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6:27-36


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2011)

I agree with Andrew.....


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## Reformed Roman (Mar 16, 2011)

I completely agree. That's my point. Christ told us to love all. Yet I'm sure most of you believe God doesn't love all and didn't die for all, and didn't atone for all, clearly. 

Yet why would Christ love all, and expect us to, when ultimately the Father doesn't?

I just want you all to explain this to me. I know the thoughts that have popped into my mind are unbiblical. I would like to renew my mind and change that though.


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## Notthemama1984 (Mar 16, 2011)

Why do you say God does not love everybody? Is God able to turn off his "love" switch?


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## Reformed Roman (Mar 16, 2011)

I wasn't sure how we all pictured God's love.

So God loves the antichrist and Esau? As Romans 9 says God loves Jacob, but hates Esau


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## Notthemama1984 (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't have the reference in front of me, but in _Chosen by God_ Sproul makes the point that the text is saying that God did not love Esau in the same way he loved Jacob. It is not saying that He did not love Esau at all.


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## py3ak (Mar 16, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> I completely agree. That's my point. Christ told us to love all. Yet I'm sure most of you believe God doesn't love all and didn't die for all, and didn't atone for all, clearly.
> 
> Yet why would Christ love all, and expect us to, when ultimately the Father doesn't?
> 
> I just want you all to explain this to me. I know the thoughts that have popped into my mind are unbiblical. I would like to renew my mind and change that though.



Zach there are several different points that might be of assistance here, and hopefully someone more versed than I am can step in to help. But just as some food for thought, I'd like to throw out there that God's word is the rule of our actions, not His decree. That is necessarily so, because we don't know the full content of God's decree; but His precepts are literally contained in an open book. The rule of our actions is clear and accessible, and it is our wisdom to cling to that without meddling with what is too high for us.
Secondly, love is often distinguished into a love of benevolence, and a love of complacency. The love we are commanded to have towards others is a love of benevolence; and _in the sense of manifesting benevolence_ God is our example: Matthew 5:43-48; Acts 14:17; Psalm 145:9. Consider in this regard p.550 of Samuel Rutherford's _Christ Dying and Drawing Sinners to Himself_ where Rutherford writes:


> There is a second love and mercy in God, by which he loves all men and angels, yea, even his enemies; makes the sun to shine upon the unjust man, as well as the just, and causeth dew and rain to fall on the orchard and fields of the bloody and deceitful man, _whom the Lord abhors_; as Christ teacheth us, Matt. 5:43-48. Nor doth God miscarry in this love; he desires the eternal being of damned angels and men; he sends the gospel to many reprobates, and invites them to repentance, and, with longanimity and forbearance, suffereth pieces of froward dust to fill the measure of their iniquity; yet does not the Lord's general love fall short of what he willeth to them.


On the preceding page Rutherford had said, "He loves all that he has made, so far, as to give them a being, to conserve them in being as long as he pleaseth...."


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## Prufrock (Mar 16, 2011)

Zach, it would be hard to add much else worth saying after Ruben's fine words; perhaps a few further things are in order, however. One needs to remember that man may be considered under various aspects: one aspect is as he is sinful; another aspect is merely as he is creature. This lies at the root of the second quote provided above from Rutherford. Insofar as you, I and anyone else _are creatures_ and _belong to God their Creator_, you and I owe them love. This is non-negotiable. As a fellow creature, we ought always to seek their good. As Christians, we recognize that all good comes from God who orders all things: therefore, prayer to God on their behalf is foundational to all seeking of their good.


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## py3ak (Mar 16, 2011)

Paul, would it be fair to add that even considering man as sinful he can be considered with regard to the _guilt_ of his condition, and also with regard to the _misery_ of his condition? And while his guilt certainly vindicates the justice of God in punishing man, the misery of man also calls forth our compassion.


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## Prufrock (Mar 16, 2011)

Ruben, so long as such compassion stands within context of and in submission to the right of our King and his purposes, I would say "Absolutely." Would you care to shed additional light with a better answer?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2011)

> (Deu 29:29) The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.



If God commands me to love someone or sacrificially lay down my life in some manner He ultimately is loving that person to some degree through me. I am merely suppose to act according to His will. I am to be merciful and caring and in so doing those things commanded by Him, He is exhibiting His love in some small fashion also through me. I can't bother to know the deeper things. They are too wonderful and awful at the same time. Those things belong to Him.


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## Reformed Roman (Mar 17, 2011)

I was just curious, because I thought some on this forum would believe God doesn't love at all, and it's just a hard thing for me to grasp God's love.

Before reformed theology and early in conversion I really loved God and just wanted to love other people because of all that He's done for me,

but it seemed the deeper into reformed theology I got, as I know reformed theology is the truth of scripture, it's not that God has less love. I know that's not true. But I guess I'm re-learning His love all over again. I used to get powdered down with love so much. And I hated that because I knew sin, and repentance were talked about all over scripture,

So I started to emphasize wrath, and sin, and punishment, and try to balance it out, but as I tried to do this, with and for others, or for myself in my mind, I started to put love at such a low importance, since God does everything for His glory (I realize love is also a motive in that).

It's just been really hard for me, struggling with sin, and then it's been just hard to see God for who He is. I continually see Him as a high and holy God and yet forget about His love and grace towards us as men, I just am not grasping it in my heart,

and because of this, it's clouded my prayer life as well, and made my heart harder towards others and praying for them, as it's been difficult to see God's love, it's also been difficult for me to love as well.


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## Tim (Mar 17, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> I was just curious, because I thought some on this forum would believe God doesn't love at all



Zach, can you perhaps include some statements (or the essence thereof) that led you to get this impression? What was the topic of discussion when it seemed to you that this was what people were saying?


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## Reformed Roman (Mar 18, 2011)

It wasn't anything in particular on the forum. I just know that some in reformed theology believe it, so I figured some would here too.


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## Tim (Mar 19, 2011)

If someone does not believe that God loves, they do not hold to reformed theology. I am quite puzzled about where you would have come across this.


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