# Do Muslims and Jews Both Worship same God as us?



## Dachaser

The Muslims and Jews both pray to and claim to know God, but my understanding is that the Jews know of the true God, Yahweh, but are in darkness as regarding their Messiah Jesus, while the Muslims really worship a false god period?


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## Ryan&Amber2013

I think that sounds okay. One thing I think of though, is Jesus basically saying that if you don't know Him, you don't know the Father. So apart from Christ, the true God seems to be outside of one's grasp in the present aga.


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## Contra_Mundum

Those who claim to know God, but deny the Son; neither do they know the Father. None of them know God; and those who do not know him do not worship him. They don't simply mistake a false mediator for the True. They have NO Mediator.

1Jn.2:23, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

Messiah Jesus spoke thus to the Jews:
John 8:18-19, "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

They who say they know the true God, but deny the Son, are liars.
John 8:54-55, "Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: yet *ye have not known him*; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying."

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## RamistThomist

Allah is a self-enclosed monad

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## KMK

WSC *Q. 2. What rule hath God given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him?*
A. The Word of God, which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, is the only rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him.

One can only worship God by means of the rule He has given us in the Old and NEW Testament. What ever other religions do, it is not 'worshipping God'. It makes one wonder what it is they are worshipping.


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## jwithnell

God reveals himself as one in three and three in one. The trinity cannot be pried apart. If one does not believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one does not believe in the one true God as he has revealed himself in scripture.

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## Dachaser

jwithnell said:


> God reveals himself as one in three and three in one. The trinity cannot be pried apart. If one does not believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one does not believe in the one true God as he has revealed himself in scripture.


The Jewish people know of the real God, but deny His Son, so not in a saving fashion, but Islam does not even have the true God to start with , correct?


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## Dachaser

Contra_Mundum said:


> Those who claim to know God, but deny the Son; neither do they know the Father. None of them know God; and those who do not know him do not worship him. They don't simply mistake a false mediator for the True. They have NO Mediator.
> 
> 1Jn.2:23, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."
> 
> Messiah Jesus spoke thus to the Jews:
> John 8:18-19, "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
> 
> They who say they know the true God, but deny the Son, are liars.
> John 8:54-55, "Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: yet *ye have not known him*; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying."


Do both of them pray than to a false god, or is it that the Jews pray to real one, but are not in a saving relationship with Him unless receive Yeshua, while Muslims pray to a false god period?


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## jwithnell

You might say the Jews see Yawah in types and shadows. The NT acknowledges an advantage because they received the word first. Legalism stiffles apprehending the gospel. I have spoken with people using the common language of the OT. I have encountered disdain because I am Goyim, or have become bogged down by the Jews arguing among themselves about nuances regarding the fencing of tbe law. (How many hours after eating beef must you wait before drinking milk?)

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## Contra_Mundum

Dachaser said:


> Do both of them pray than to a false god, or is it that the Jews pray to real one, but are not in a saving relationship with Him unless receive Yeshua, while Muslims pray to a false god period?



_*Anyone *_not praying to "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," is petitioning a false god. According to the Son himself, you cannot acknowledge the first element apart from the second. And the Apostles agree, by echoing the Lord's teaching or repeatedly demonstrating it by an active confession.

Jesus said, "[Ye] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life," Jn.5:39-40.

In other words: to come to the God revealed in the Scriptures of the OT and NT, is by definition to find Christ there. So, if Christ is not found of them who "own" the correct text--or even just a portion of them--they are not meeting the truth, nor the true God which is Truth itself. To know the Truth and the True God is to know Christ, Jn.14:6.

Men not acted upon by the Holy Spirit do not know God or seek him. They may take his Name upon their lips, or quote his reliable revelation; but just as with the calf they substituted for Jehovah at the foot of Mt.Sinai, the god they address is not Him who brought them out of Egypt.

The knowledge such persons have is not (in the main) the kind that the demons have, which know the God of Truth and tremble having no Savior (Jas.2:19). We are talking about sincere but ignorant people, who employ the "map" of the Way to a futile end. So much worse, then, for those who have glimpsed the Way of Truth unto Life in the Bible, and have suppressed it. How can these be said to pray to the One Lord God, and not to an idol?

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## KeithW

Contra_Mundum said:


> 1Jn.2:23, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."


Islam is completely against Jesus being the Son of God; against his crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection; and claims the Christian Bible is corrupt and Christians in their doctrine have gone to great excess.

Let's contrast what the Bible says about Jesus being the Son of God and what the Quran says, by looking at one brief Bible passage vs. what the Quran says about the same thing.

Bible - Luke 1:26-27 And in the sixth month *the angel Gabriel* was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
​Bible - Luke 1:31-32 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name *Jesus*. He shall be great, and *shall be called the Son of the Highest*: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 

Bible - Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee *shall be called the Son of God*.​
The Quran was written 600 years later. It claims that the Quran eternally existed. It claims that the same angel Gabriel gave the Quran.

Quran 2:97 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to *Gabriel – it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down* upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."​
So what did their angel Gabriel say about Jesus?

Quran 9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?​
Do we all worship the same God? The Islamic "god" offers mercy and forgiveness, declared he has the right way and the truth, declared that Jesus ascended and will return as judge, declared there is a heaven and a hell. But the Islamic "god" kept changing the revelation Muhammad was given for the 22 years of his life, this revelation supposedly written in eternity past. And it is amazing that many of the revelations just happened to give Muhammad permission to indulge his latest carnal/fleshly desires. 

Also, the Islamic "god" declares that the only way to be right with god is through the law of Islam -- yes only by law. And don't forget what I mentioned earlier, that their god denies Jesus is the Son of God.

With all of this, and there's more, do Christians and Muslims have the same God?


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## Von

Dachaser said:


> Do both of them pray than to a false god, or is it that the Jews pray to real one,


Pro 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.


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## Dachaser

KeithW said:


> Islam is completely against Jesus being the Son of God; against his crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection; and claims the Christian Bible is corrupt and Christians in their doctrine have gone to great excess.
> 
> Let's contrast what the Bible says about Jesus being the Son of God and what the Quran says, by looking at one brief Bible passage vs. what the Quran says about the same thing.
> 
> Bible - Luke 1:26-27 And in the sixth month *the angel Gabriel* was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
> ​Bible - Luke 1:31-32 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name *Jesus*. He shall be great, and *shall be called the Son of the Highest*: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
> 
> Bible - Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee *shall be called the Son of God*.​The Quran was written 600 years later. It claims that the Quran eternally existed. It claims that the same angel Gabriel gave the Quran.
> 
> Quran 2:97 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to *Gabriel – it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down* upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."​
> So what did their angel Gabriel say about Jesus?
> 
> Quran 9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?​
> Do we all worship the same God? The Islamic "god" offers mercy and forgiveness, declared he has the right way and the truth, declared that Jesus ascended and will return as judge, declared there is a heaven and a hell. But the Islamic "god" kept changing the revelation Muhammad was given for the 22 years of his life, this revelation supposedly written in eternity past. And it is amazing that many of the revelations just happened to give Muhammad permission to indulge his latest carnal/fleshly desires.
> 
> Also, the Islamic "god" declares that the only way to be right with god is through the law of Islam -- yes only by law. And don't forget what I mentioned earlier, that their god denies Jesus is the Son of God.
> 
> With all of this, and there's more, do Christians and Muslims have the same God?


I do not think that we worship the same God, as Muhamed received false revelations from satan, but regarding the Jewish peoples, would they not at ;east be dealing with the father of Jesus, but know of Him, but not in a saving sense?


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## Dachaser

Contra_Mundum said:


> _*Anyone *_not praying to "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," is petitioning a false god. According to the Son himself, you cannot acknowledge the first element apart from the second. And the Apostles agree, by echoing the Lord's teaching or repeatedly demonstrating it by an active confession.
> 
> Jesus said, "[Ye] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life," Jn.5:39-40.
> 
> In other words: to come to the God revealed in the Scriptures of the OT and NT, is by definition to find Christ there. So, if Christ is not found of them who "own" the correct text--or even just a portion of them--they are not meeting the truth, nor the true God which is Truth itself. To know the Truth and the True God is to know Christ, Jn.14:6.
> 
> Men not acted upon by the Holy Spirit do not know God or seek him. They may take his Name upon their lips, or quote his reliable revelation; but just as with the calf they substituted for Jehovah at the foot of Mt.Sinai, the god they address is not Him who brought them out of Egypt.
> 
> The knowledge such persons have is not (in the main) the kind that the demons have, which know the God of Truth and tremble having no Savior (Jas.2:19). We are talking about sincere but ignorant people, who employ the "map" of the Way to a futile end. So much worse, then, for those who have glimpsed the Way of Truth unto Life in the Bible, and have suppressed it. How can these be said to pray to the One Lord God, and not to an idol?


I agree with the truth that God ONLY has a saving relationship with those who acknowledge the Biblical Jesus, but would not the big difference between Jews and Muslims ne that at least the Jews are talking about the real God?


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## Von

Dachaser said:


> at least the Jews are talking about the real God?


Is an unbeliever talking about the real God when he talks about "God"? Well, that probably depends on what he means with the term "God". If this is a god of his own making (ie without Christ), then no, but if this means God as revealed in the New testament - yes, we're talking about the same God. 
What is the reason/question behind your question?


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## Dachaser

Von said:


> Is an unbeliever talking about the real God when he talks about "God"? Well, that probably depends on what he means with the term "God". If this is a god of his own making (ie without Christ), then no, but if this means God as revealed in the New testament - yes, we're talking about the same God.
> What is the reason/question behind your question?


Think that the jews are talking about the real God, while islam is not!


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## Steve Curtis

Dachaser said:


> Think that the jews are talking about the real God, while islam is not!


As has already been noted, the "real God" is the *Father of our Lord*. If *anyone* (how much clearer can it be said?) denies this truth, they are not talking about the "real God," irrespective of how much you seem to wish otherwise. In fact, they rejected the "real God" when they rejected His Son.


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## Dachaser

kainos01 said:


> As has already been noted, the "real God" is the *Father of our Lord*. If *anyone* (how much clearer can it be said?) denies this truth, they are not talking about the "real God," irrespective of how much you seem to wish otherwise. In fact, they rejected the "real God" when they rejected His Son.


The Jews have the God of the Old testament that they are dealing with though, which is the real One, they just are ignorant to the truth of Jesus as their Messiah!


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## Steve Curtis

They are not "dealing" with Him. They have shaken their collective fist at Him and effectively said that He is a liar to say that Jesus is His beloved Son. They are not confused or misguided; they are in active rebellion against Him and, because of the opportunities they had to know Him and acknowledge Him, which they neglected, they are all the more culpable. Yes! Pray for the conversion of Jews - and of Nigerians and Malaysians and Ecuadorians. All are justly condemned unless they place saving faith in Christ alone.

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## KeithW

Dachaser said:


> I do not think that we worship the same God...



The Jews claim their God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exod. 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.​
The Christians claim their God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?​
The Muslims claim their God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Quran 2:136 Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."​
Quran 3:84 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."​
Their are much better arguments to answer "Do Muslims and Jews Both Worship same God as us?" than saying,



Dachaser said:


> Muhamed [sic] received false revelations from Satan



I will provide an example in my next post.


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## KeithW

(This is not an original idea by me...)

Approaching the question posed in the title of this thread from a different perspective, the Jews and the Christians claim their God is all-knowing.

Bible - Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 
Bible - Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.​
If Muslims worship the same God, then their god is also all knowing. How can we test this claim? Lets look at the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The claim of the Muslim god in the Quran is that the Christians have gone to excess in saying God is "three".

Quran 4:171 O *People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth*. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And *do not say, "Three"*; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.​
Quran 5:73-75 *They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three."* And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.​
The Quran describes this Christian "three" as,

Quran 5:116 And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O *Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'*" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.​
If the Muslim god is all knowing then why does this god not even accurately know what the Christian belief of the Trinity was at the time of Muhammad?


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## Justified

If you want a thorough, thoughtful examination of the question, check out this two part interview: http://trinities.org/blog/do-christians-muslims-worship-same-god-part-1/. It is not an easy question. It's difficult even to pin down what the question means, and it brings up important questions about reference.


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## Dachaser

kainos01 said:


> They are not "dealing" with Him. They have shaken their collective fist at Him and effectively said that He is a liar to say that Jesus is His beloved Son. They are not confused or misguided; they are in active rebellion against Him and, because of the opportunities they had to know Him and acknowledge Him, which they neglected, they are all the more culpable. Yes! Pray for the conversion of Jews - and of Nigerians and Malaysians and Ecuadorians. All are justly condemned unless they place saving faith in Christ alone.


God though used their unbelief as part of His plan to bring we gentiles into the fold with Jesus the Messiah, and that blindness was for a purpose and was temporary basis?
Doesn't Paul mention how much greater will be once those who are natural roots get grafted back in?


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## Dachaser

KeithW said:


> (This is not an original idea by me...)
> 
> Approaching the question posed in the title of this thread from a different perspective, the Jews and the Christians claim their God is all-knowing.
> 
> Bible - Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
> Bible - Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.​
> If Muslims worship the same God, then their god is also all knowing. How can we test this claim? Lets look at the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The claim of the Muslim god in the Quran is that the Christians have gone to excess in saying God is "three".
> 
> Quran 4:171 O *People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth*. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And *do not say, "Three"*; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.​
> Quran 5:73-75 *They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three."* And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.​
> The Quran describes this Christian "three" as,
> 
> Quran 5:116 And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O *Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'*" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.​
> If the Muslim god is all knowing then why does this god not even accurately know what the Christian belief of the Trinity was at the time of Muhammad?


The Muslims cannot be dealing with Yahweh though, as the revelations that their prophet received contradicted what the Holy Spirit inspired to us concerning salvation, trinity, and the work and person of Jesus Christ!


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## Contra_Mundum

David,
You seems to be casting the issue, of "which God someone is affirming," as one of "insufficient data." *As if:* it once was possible to be a true believer, having just 39 books of the Bible (so to speak); therefore, now those who maintain just those same 39 books are in the same relative position to the truth as those living prior to the Incarnation. Their chief problem in this perspective is that they lack--for a variety of reasons--the remaining 27 books (the NT), and therefore are simply continuing with the "old" belief system.

Jesus himself explained: that wasn't then, and therefore it isn't now, the issue.

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## Von

Would a dispensationalist be more inclined to reason that the Jews are serving the same God as Christians (albeit in ignorance about Christ)?


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## Pergamum

*Chapter (17) sūrat l-isrā (The Night Journey)*




*Sahih International*: And say, "Praise to Allah , *who has not taken a son *and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification."

*Pickthall*: And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.

*Yusuf Ali*: Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"


Seems pretty clear to me that the Muhammadan God is different.


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## KeithW

Pergamum said:


> Seems pretty clear to me that the Muhammadan God is different.


Agreed. This is where Christians need to be very clear about some key points on what the Muslim sources say, like the verse you quoted.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.​
Islam sources allow that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, but absolutely deny Jesus is the Son.


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## Dachaser

Contra_Mundum said:


> David,
> You seems to be casting the issue, of "which God someone is affirming," as one of "insufficient data." *As if:* it once was possible to be a true believer, having just 39 books of the Bible (so to speak); therefore, now those who maintain just those same 39 books are in the same relative position to the truth as those living prior to the Incarnation. Their chief problem in this perspective is that they lack--for a variety of reasons--the remaining 27 books (the NT), and therefore are simply continuing with the "old" belief system.
> 
> Jesus himself explained: that wasn't then, and therefore it isn't now, the issue.


Agree with you that the jews need to accept Yeshua in order to be saved...


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## Dachaser

KeithW said:


> Agreed. This is where Christians need to be very clear about some key points on what the Muslim sources say, like the verse you quoted.
> 
> 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.​
> Islam sources allow that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, but absolutely deny Jesus is the Son.


The interesting thing is that the Koran supports that Jesus was born of a virgin, sinless, did miracles, was second greatest prophet, and even called Messiah, so why would Muhhamed rate over him?


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> The interesting thing is that the Koran supports that Jesus was born of a virgin, sinless, did miracles, was second greatest prophet, and even called Messiah, so why would Muhhamed rate over him?



Because none of those things prove he was fully God (if taken in isolation from the biblical narrative). This is why evidential apologetics is so weak.

On another note, regarding Jews today--we can use biblical categories: they do not worship the true God. They are covenant-breaking apostates. Jesus said their father was the Devil.


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> Because none of those things prove he was fully God (if taken in isolation from the biblical narrative). This is why evidential apologetics is so weak.
> 
> On another note, regarding Jews today--we can use biblical categories: they do not worship the true God. They are covenant-breaking apostates. Jesus said their father was the Devil.


They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!


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## ZackF

Dachaser said:


> They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
> And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!



What do you mean "dealing" with Yahweh? In fact they are not dealing with God. That is the issue. Have you considered the passages that others have brought to this discussion?

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## Dachaser

ZackF said:


> What do you mean "dealing" with Yahweh? In fact they are not dealing with God. That is the issue. Have you considered the passages that others have brought to this discussion?



Yes, and I do agree that the Jewish people have no special relationship with God today, apart from being saved by the New Covenant One that Jesus installed with His death/resurrection, but think that them at least knowing about the true God by their OT scriptures is different than Muslims, who have a false god revealed to them in the Koran.


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
> And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!



They are apostate, so they can't be worshipping Yahweh.


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> but think that them at least knowing about the true God by their OT scriptures is different than Muslims



What do they gain by that?


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> They are apostate, so they can't be worshipping Yahweh.


True, as they would be in vain approaching Yahweh, as they would need to come through Yeshua for that to be acceptable to God.


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> What do they gain by that?


They have the inspired OT scriptures that tell them about the real God, and my point is that they do have a witness to the true God in their scriptures, unlike the Muslims, who have no revelation to them in the Koran!


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## ZackF

Dachaser said:


> They have the inspired OT scriptures that tell them about the real God, and my point is that they do have a witness to the true God in their scriptures, unlike the Muslims, who have no revelation to them in the Koran!



In some ways that makes there situation worse. The Jews have the 'oracles of God.' You're committing category errors. The OP was about worship not the veracity of Scripture. In the same vein JWs and Mormons have the Bible as well but don't worship him.


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## Dachaser

ZackF said:


> In some ways that makes there situation worse. The Jews have the 'oracles of God.' You're committing category errors. The OP was about worship not the veracity of Scripture. In the same vein JWs and Mormons have the Bible as well but don't worship him.


You are right about expanding my own Op, and think the answer would be what all basically have shown me here, that the Jews and Muslims are not worshipping Yahweh....Whether they even have a revelation/knowledge of Him from their scriptures would be a different thing altogether...


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## RamistThomist

Concerning their definitive apostasy in 70 AD, Josephus notes:

Josephus bears eloquent testimony to this, writing repeatedly of God's wrath against the apostasy of the Jewish nation as the cause of their woes:

"These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the laws of God; and as for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning the rewards of virtue, and punishments of vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country." "Neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitJul in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." "When the city was encircled and they could no longer gather herbs, some persons were driven to such terrible distress that they searched the common sewers and old dunghills of cattle, and ate the dung they found there; and what they once could not even look at they now used for food. When the Romans barely heard this, their compassion was aroused; yet the rebels, who saw it also, did not repent, but allowed the same distress to come upon themselves; for they were blinded by that fate which was already coming upon the city, and upon themselves also."

Chilton concludes:

Finally, St. John summarizes Israel's crimes, all stemming from her idolatry (cf. Romans 1:18-32). This led to her murders of Christ and the saints (Acts 2:23, 36; 3:14-15; 4:26; 7:51-52, 58-60); her sorceries (Acts 8:9, 11; 13:6-11; 19:13-15; cf. Revelation 18:23; 21:8; 22:15); her fornication, a word St. John uses twelve times with reference to Israel's apostasy (Revelation 2:14; 2:20; 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2 [twice]; 17:4; 18:3 [twice]; 18:9; 19:2); and her thefts, a crime often associated in the Bible with apostasy and the resultant oppression and persecution of the righteous (129).
_The Great Tribulation_


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> Concerning their definitive apostasy in 70 AD, Josephus notes:
> 
> Josephus bears eloquent testimony to this, writing repeatedly of God's wrath against the apostasy of the Jewish nation as the cause of their woes:
> 
> "These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the laws of God; and as for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning the rewards of virtue, and punishments of vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country." "Neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitJul in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." "When the city was encircled and they could no longer gather herbs, some persons were driven to such terrible distress that they searched the common sewers and old dunghills of cattle, and ate the dung they found there; and what they once could not even look at they now used for food. When the Romans barely heard this, their compassion was aroused; yet the rebels, who saw it also, did not repent, but allowed the same distress to come upon themselves; for they were blinded by that fate which was already coming upon the city, and upon themselves also."
> 
> Chilton concludes:
> 
> Finally, St. John summarizes Israel's crimes, all stemming from her idolatry (cf. Romans 1:18-32). This led to her murders of Christ and the saints (Acts 2:23, 36; 3:14-15; 4:26; 7:51-52, 58-60); her sorceries (Acts 8:9, 11; 13:6-11; 19:13-15; cf. Revelation 18:23; 21:8; 22:15); her fornication, a word St. John uses twelve times with reference to Israel's apostasy (Revelation 2:14; 2:20; 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2 [twice]; 17:4; 18:3 [twice]; 18:9; 19:2); and her thefts, a crime often associated in the Bible with apostasy and the resultant oppression and persecution of the righteous (129).
> _The Great Tribulation_


There still though seems to be in the Scriptures the hope for the Jewish peoples coming back to Yahweh right before the Second Advent of Jesus, so the nation on the whole is in darkness, but there might still remain the light of the Messiah to shine upon them...

Reactions: Edifying 1


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> There still though seems to be in the Scriptures the hope for the Jewish peoples coming back to Yahweh right before the Second Advent of Jesus, so the nation on the whole is in darkness, but there might still remain the light of the Messiah to shine upon them...



Sure, but right now they are _covenantally dead_.


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> Sure, but right now they are _covenantally dead_.


Agreed!


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## KMK

The question is, who are _they_? All those who can trace their ancestry back to Jacob? All those who still keep the ceremonial laws of Moses? All those who worship at the Temple? Those people no longer exist. What are the distinguishing characteristics of the Israel for whom there is a future?


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## MW

It might help to distinguish between "God" as a proper noun and "Godhead" as a generic common noun used to refer to the divine nature. Anyone who believes in a "God" who is not the one only living and true God subsisting in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, merely believes in Godhead or Godhood.


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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> The question is, who are _they_? All those who can trace their ancestry back to Jacob? All those who still keep the ceremonial laws of Moses? All those who worship at the Temple? Those people no longer exist. What are the distinguishing characteristics of the Israel for whom there is a future?


They would be the Jewish Race, who has no hope apart from the New Covenant, but God has not finished His plans to have them saved and woken up to their Messiah right before His second coming.


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## Steve Curtis

Dachaser said:


> They would be the Jewish Race


But how do you define those who are of the Jewish race?


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## Dachaser

kainos01 said:


> But how do you define those who are of the Jewish race?


By their birth...


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## KMK

Dachaser said:


> By their birth...



Can you be more specific?


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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> Can you be more specific?


They would have at least 1 parent to have been Jewish!


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> They would have at least 1 parent to have been Jewish!



Are they Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews or Abrahamic Jews?


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## KMK

Dachaser said:


> They would have at least 1 parent to have been Jewish!



Are those parents 'Jews' because of their culture, their ethnicity, their address, their politics, their genealogy, or their personal choice? Or is it a combination of some of these?


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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> Are those parents 'Jews' because of their culture, their ethnicity, their address, their politics, their genealogy, or their personal choice? Or is it a combination of some of these?


I am referring to Jews based upon ethnic traits!


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> Are they Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews or Abrahamic Jews?


What are the differences?


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> What are the differences?



Abrahamic Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There aren't many today, since they happened to lose every war they fought since the first century.

Ashkenazi/Khazars were sex-slavers in the middle ages around the Black Sea. They converted to Talmudic Judaism because it matched their barbarism. They have little ethnic identity with Semitic Jews. Most Eastern European Jews are Khazars


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## KMK

ReformedReidian said:


> Abrahamic Jews are the descendants of Abraham.



How do they even know this? They no longer have genealogies that go back that far.

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## KMK

Dachaser said:


> I am referring to Jews based upon ethnic traits!





Dachaser said:


> They would be the Jewish Race





Dachaser said:


> By their birth...



Are they Jews by their ethnicity, their 'race', or their 'birth'? 

According to Webster's, 'ethnicity' means "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition." 

'Race' means "each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics."

By 'birth', I assume you mean by a genealogical relationship to Jacob.

I admit that I struggle with the WLC Q 191, where it says we should pray that the Jews are called. I have no problem praying that all sorts of people are called, but who were these 'Jews' to which the Reformers referred? Who are the 'Jews' to which modern day Dispensationalists refer? I heard a prominent Calvary Chapel pastor once say that we don't know who they are. If that's the case, then maybe they already have been called and we don't know it because we don't know who they are.


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## RamistThomist

KMK said:


> How do they even know this? They no longer have genealogies that go back that far.



I'm speaking hypothetically.


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## Von

KMK said:


> then maybe they already have been called and we don't know it because we don't know who they are.


Sounds like the 144000 of the Jehovah's Witnesses...


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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> Are they Jews by their ethnicity, their 'race', or their 'birth'?
> 
> According to Webster's, 'ethnicity' means "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition."
> 
> 'Race' means "each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics."
> 
> By 'birth', I assume you mean by a genealogical relationship to Jacob.
> 
> I admit that I struggle with the WLC Q 191, where it says we should pray that the Jews are called. I have no problem praying that all sorts of people are called, but who were these 'Jews' to which the Reformers referred? Who are the 'Jews' to which modern day Dispensationalists refer? I heard a prominent Calvary Chapel pastor once say that we don't know who they are. If that's the case, then maybe they already have been called and we don't know it because we don't know who they are.


I would assume those would the Jews who are now back in the land!


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## KMK

Dachaser said:


> I would assume those would the Jews who are now back in the land!



Not to belabor the point, but what do the 'Jews' that live in today's nation of Israel have to do with the 'Jews' of Paul's day? The distinguishing characteristics of 'Jews' before 70 AD was that they worshipped according to the OT ceremonial laws, in a Temple, by means of a Priesthood, and could trace their ancestry back to Jacob. None of these things are true of those who claim to be Jews in modern day Israel.

I have no problem praying for the salvation of all people everywhere, regardless of race, ethnicity, or genealogy. But I don't understand the point, in this day and age, of singling out one group of people above another.

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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> I would assume those would the Jews who are now back in the land!


 
But they really aren't ethnically the same as Abraham's descendants. They descend from the Khazars, a Black Sea pagan tribe that converted to Talmudic Judaism in the 800s. I don't doubt there are Semitic Jews today, but I don't think they are the majority.

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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> Not to belabor the point, but what do the 'Jews' that live in today's nation of Israel have to do with the 'Jews' of Paul's day? The distinguishing characteristics of 'Jews' before 70 AD was that they worshipped according to the OT ceremonial laws, in a Temple, by means of a Priesthood, and could trace their ancestry back to Jacob. None of these things are true of those who claim to be Jews in modern day Israel.
> 
> I have no problem praying for the salvation of all people everywhere, regardless of race, ethnicity, or genealogy. But I don't understand the point, in this day and age, of singling out one group of people above another.


The Lord , in my understanding of the scriptures, seems to be still to be doing a work with the Jewish people, as He will bring them to a saving faith in Jesus as the real Messiah in end times...


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## Dachaser

ReformedReidian said:


> But they really aren't ethnically the same as Abraham's descendants. They descend from the Khazars, a Black Sea pagan tribe that converted to Talmudic Judaism in the 800s. I don't doubt there are Semitic Jews today, but I don't think they are the majority.


Either way, would be those who see themselves as being Jewish in Israel...


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## KMK

Dachaser said:


> Either way, would be those who see themselves as being Jewish in Israel...



So 'the Jews' which shall be brought to faith in the future are all those who see themselves as 'Jews', and also happen to live in the modern day nation of Israel at the time?

Is this the consensus among Dispensationals?


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## Dachaser

KMK said:


> So 'the Jews' which shall be brought to faith in the future are all those who see themselves as 'Jews', and also happen to live in the modern day nation of Israel at the time?
> 
> Is this the consensus among Dispensationals?


Yes, but also that right now the Jews must receive Jesus as their messiah to be saved, but that the Great Tribulation will be the way God brings them to saving faith in Christ in end times!


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## Ask Mr. Religion

Dachaser said:


> Yes, but also that right now the Jews must receive Jesus as their messiah to be saved, but that the Great Tribulation will be the way God brings them to saving faith in Christ in end times!


When is the Great Tribulation you refer to above?


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## RamistThomist

Dachaser said:


> Either way, would be those who see themselves as being Jewish in Israel...



Is that what Paul meant? Did Paul have Khazars in mind?


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## Gforce9

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> When is the Great Tribulation you refer to above?



Isn't this referring to the time when China and Russia (Gog & Magog) saddle up after a few Hinterland Luna Coffee Stouts and ransack the Middle East with their locusts....errr...I mean Mil Mi-24Hind D attack helicopters?


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## Dachaser

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> When is the Great Tribulation you refer to above?


To Dispensational, that would be the last 7 years before the Second Coming Event, as there will always be tribulation, but Jesus stated that Great one would be a time like none before it, as all of the elect themselves could perish, and all life if he did not come back!
Historical Premil would see it in a similar fashion, except that we tend to not see any Rapture, and that the church endure the Tribulation by Grace of God!


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## hammondjones

Gforce9 said:


> Isn't this referring to the time when China and Russia (Gog & Magog) saddle up after a few Hinterland Luna Coffee Stouts and ransack the Middle East with their locusts....errr...I mean Mil Mi-24Hind D attack helicopters?



Hey, to be fair, China is building that highway of peace between Assyria and Egypt....

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