# Is Rap for the church?



## Redness (Jul 4, 2011)

In my previous post(s) I displayed my hostility toward rap which perhaps could have been more sensitive. But hey, no one is perfect. I do tend to make bad first impressions as I'm a bit... passionate about what I believe. Forgive me. Below is an article that pretty much says what I did, but is more kind in it's delivery. May God grant us all eye to see and ears to hear.

Reformed Rap: My Thoughts at Christian Research Net

Btw, I'm not a racist, I'm a cultural-ist!


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## Kim G (Jul 4, 2011)

Use the search bar on the right to type in "Reformed Rap." You'll see lots of threads about this already. Praise God for our brothers in Christ preaching the gospel to the hip hop culture. Here is reformed rap artist and pastor Shai Linne who already addressed this issue in another forum where a bunch of old white men chatted on for thirty pages against this music although they knew nothing about it. I challenge you to read it.

************

'Wow, what a fascinating discussion! With this being my first time posting here, I guess I should introduce myself. My name is Shai Linne. I found this forum because it was linked from a Christian Hip-hop website (yes, they do exist). I'll come clean immediately and let you know that I am a Christian Hip-hop artist myself and I count Curtis "Voice" Allen as a personal friend and a dear brother in Christ. I've followed this thread from the beginning. I was tempted to post when the discussion was still around 4 or 5 pages long. At that point, there had already been so many over-generalizations, false assumptions, factual inaccuracies and downright offensive statements that it would have been almost laughable had it not been so grieving. As the Lord's providence would have it, I had other obligations to tend to and had to wait until today to post. Little did I know that it would explode into more than 30 pages!

'Honestly, it's a good thing that I didn't post yesterday, because I would have posted in anger, which obviously would not have been honoring to God. As the thread got longer, I continued to watch in amazement at the things that were being discussed concerning rap by people who were clearly uninformed concerning the genre. People who seemed to be otherwise intelligent and knowledgeable in the Scriptures said some of the most baffling things! I chuckled more than once as nearly everyone prefaced their statements by saying something to the effect of "I don't listen to rap", "Personally, I hate rap", "I'm not defending rap. We would never use rap in our church...", etc. Even those who sided with Piper were quick to acknowledge their disdain for the genre. So there you have it. If you can't agree on anything else, you were universally united in your negative opinion of rap! Who said there was no unity here?

'As I signed up to post on this site, I gladly concurred with the fundamentalist doctrinal statement. I love Jesus Christ! I am passionate (though not nearly as I should be) about the glory of God, the supremacy of Jesus Christ in all things, sound doctrine, the doctrines of grace and discipleship. I am also passionate about reaching out to those who are either a part of or influenced by Hip-hop culture. In light of that final passion, there is much to be discouraged by in this thread. It was amazing how, among those who have such a high view of Scripture, how biblically uninformed this discussion has been! I'm grateful for the few who at least attempted to bring Scripture to bear on the conversation, even if I disagreed with some of the conclusions. I was also discouraged by how few people actually did any research at all about Hip-hop culture. I mean, If you're going to reject something with little to no biblical support, I would at least hope that you would do a little research, so as to give an informed opinion about what you're rejecting. I do appreciate the brother who took the time to look up "hip-hop" in wikipedia, only to come to the (incorrect) conclusion that "holy" and "hip-hop" are mutually exclusive. Very disheartening indeed.

'I'm really not here to either present a defense or even address your arguments. That would take more time than I have, considering that the thread is about to close. However, the the more I thought about it, the more I realized that you all have very valid reasons for having the opinions that you do. I absolutely understand why you reject rap and question the integrity of someone who would use it in a Christian context. I understand why many of you consider rap to be "aesthetically bankrupt". I understand why some of you believe that anyone who could possibly think of using rap to glorify God obviously needs more discipleship. What other conclusion could you come to? Here's what I mean:

'Of course you paint all "rap" with a broad brush. How could you make any differentiation at all? You have no idea that there have been at least 5 distinct eras in rap's brief, thirty-plus year history. Of course you see rap as a profane medium. What has your exposure been? The only exposure some of you have had is when you've walked into the room and caught your teenager watching MTV and told them to cut it off. Or when a car pulls up next to you blasting rap music at an obscenely high level- to the point where you can't even hear the music in your own car!

'Of course you view rap music as "aesthetically bankrupt". Your ear is not trained to hear the brilliance of the cadences, rhythms and structure of the songs performed by the best Hip-hop lyricists. You haven't been exposed to the multisyllabic poetic forms of the best rappers that would put some of the best hymn writers to shame, in terms of verbal dexterity and lyrical complexity. All you hear is a loud beat with profanity being shouted over it!

'Of course you believe that all rap is "intrinsically erotic in composition". (By the way, I'll refrain from telling Curtis that presumably older, caucasian men found what he did at Piper's church to be erotic. That might be more information than he needs) What are your examples? You've only been exposed to the crass, over-sexualized rap songs that typify much of the popular secular rap. Your conclusion is absolutely reasonable, based on how uninformed you are.

'How could you possibly think that the rap's medium is appropriate for carrying the weight of the triune God's eternal truth? You could only believe that to be true if you've been exposed to rap lyrics such as the following:

"God doesn't just save us for forgiveness of sins
He takes us to shape us into an image of Him
Christ fulfilled the law when we were doomed with Satan
So believers get His righteousness through imputation
Now there's no condemnation for His consecrated
I know the process stated seems complicated
But it's the Holy Spririt's keen medication
All by His washing and regeneration"
(Timothy Brindle, "Sanctification")

'Of course you don't believe that rap is appropriate for worship! You haven't been exposed to rap songs with lyrics such as this:

"On Mt. Sinai when He appeared the assembly near
Shouted violent cries and trembled in fear
And you can trust He'll delete and crush and delete
All lust and deceit, the clouds are the dust of His feet
Ask Nadab and Abihu, Rahab and the spies knew
Check Psalm 76, Asaph will remind you
A loud singing choir flips in the heavenlies
The proud King Uzziah stricken with leprosy
Those who don't fear get the harshest of punishment
Like Uzzah when He touched the ark of the covenant
The Lord struck him down?
Because he was a guilty man who assumed his filthy hands
Were cleaner than the dusty ground!
It defies your reasoning to try conceiving Him
His foes will flee and hide when the Son comes
My eyes have seen the King and I'm an evil thing
Woe is me for I am undone!"

Holy, holy, holy is the LORD!
Holy, holy holy is our God!
Holy, holy, holy is the LORD!
The whloe earth is filled with His glory!
(from "The Holiness of God" by Vessels of Mercy)

'You have no idea that there is a group of young, Christ-exalting, theocentric, passionate, missions-minded believers in our generation who see Hip-hop not just as a genre of music, but a culture that shapes the worldview of a distinct people group that needs to be reached with the gospel. How could you know this? You haven't been to the evangelistic services in the Chicago area that featured Christian Hip-hop and culminated with gang members laying their guns on the altar as they weeped in repentance, crying out for the Savior. You haven't been privy to the multitudes of emails that testify of believers being led into sound doctrine and away from churches that promote false teaching because God's grace led them to actually look into the Scriptures for themselves to see what that Christian rap artist was talking about. 

'Of course you believe that rap can't be used for edification. You have no idea that calls are coming in from places as far as China and Brazil for Christian rap artists to help teach local pastors about discipleship because of the clear fruit that is abounding to God's glory in urban areas like Philadelphia, St. Louis, Dallas and Memphis. You are not aware that many in the Hip-hop generation are currently enrolled in or have graduated from some of the most elite seminaries and Bible colleges in our country. How could you know this? 

'Forgive me for being so long-winded. I just want to let you know that I absolutely understand your concerns. They are borne out of ignorance. And you are to be excused for that. However, your lack of basic Christian charity, lack of grace, cultural pride and refusal to acknowledge that God is glorified whenever the person and work of His glorious Son Jesus Christ are clearly explained, believed, understood and rejoiced in is inexcusable. And for that, some of you in here need to repent.

Soli Deo Gloria,
shai'

************
I personally believe that rap/hip hop is one of the best mediums for Christian songs because it is basically preaching set to music. There are SO MANY lyrics compared to a hymn or praise song. Here's my personal favorite: a breakdown of the entire book of Romans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2r4ujFeuqk


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 4, 2011)

Introduce Yourself is for just that; it is not for discussions such as this. Moving to General Discussions.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 4, 2011)

Redness,

1) We're now talking about the performing of, or listening to, rap music outside of a worship service, right? I doubt you'll find many on the PB who would think that rap was appropriate as part of a Sunday morning service.

2) Why single out rap? Do you believe that rap, or the "culture" associated with it, are any more sinful that that of rock, or country-and-western? 

I'm not a fan of rap, but trying to be fair, I would think that the cadence and structure of rap would make conveying a message lyrically easier for rap than for many other styles of music. 

I get that a Christian rap artist would have to be careful not to become absorbed by the worldliness around him, and that we are influenced not just by lyrics but by the music itself, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why you think this entire style of music is unredeemable.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Jul 4, 2011)

I admit that Christian rap, as it _tends_ to be, involves a lot of sinful habits and motives. But leaving those things aside, "rap" (call it whatever you want) can be an effective way of delivering the truth; the rhythm and especially the rhymes make messages very easy to memorize! Here is a great example by Shai Linne:

[video=youtube;7RUciHVpCbw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RUciHVpCbw[/video]


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## Andres (Jul 4, 2011)

Redness, I appreciate you phrasing this argument in a much more respectable manner. I read the article you shared and I would agree with it. I don't care for rap, but I especially don't care for Christian rap. Here is a thread I started last year. You can see most people will disagree with us, but I am with you and I believe that rap music is something we should leave for the world.


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## Redness (Jul 4, 2011)

Andres said:


> Redness, I appreciate you phrasing this argument in a much more respectable manner. I read the article you shared and I would agree with it. I don't care for rap, but I especially don't care for Christian rap. Here is a thread I started last year. You can see most people will disagree with us, but I am with you and I believe that rap music is something we should leave for the world.



Fantastic!!

---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------




ericfromcowtown said:


> Redness,
> 
> 1) We're now talking about the performing of, or listening to, rap music outside of a worship service, right? I doubt you'll find many on the PB who would think that rap was appropriate as part of a Sunday morning service.
> 
> ...



I feel the same about Rock, Punk and Pop etc. Leave them to the world.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------




NaphtaliPress said:


> Introduce Yourself is for just that; it is not for discussions such as this. Moving to General Discussions.



Thanks!!


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 4, 2011)

Redness said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Redness, I appreciate you phrasing this argument in a much more respectable manner. I read the article you shared and I would agree with it. I don't care for rap, but I especially don't care for Christian rap. Here is a thread I started last year. You can see most people will disagree with us, but I am with you and I believe that rap music is something we should leave for the world.
> ...



You forgot country and western. Lots of drowning in the bottom of a wiskey bottle and rebellion there, too. I like Hank Williams music, but he was also an alcholic and pill popper who slept around. Does this mean that country and western should also be verboten for the Christian?

I think that I would agree with you that the Christian needs to be more discerning and that we (the church) often land up falling prey to worldliness. What I'm trying to figure out is at what point does a musical style become unredeemable? At one point does the fact that artist A is a fornicator or artist B is an atheist mean that the musical style is inappropriate?

Are you concerned more with the lifestyles and the sin surrounding many in the genre, or is it the formulation or instrumentation etc... that is your primary concern?


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## Redness (Jul 4, 2011)

You forgot country and western. Lots of drowning in the bottom of a wiskey bottle and rebellion there, too. I like Hank Williams music, but he was also an alcholic and pill popper who slept around. Does this mean that country and western should also be verboten for the Christian?

I think that I would agree with you that the Christian needs to be more discerning and that we (the church) often land up falling prey to worldliness. What I'm trying to figure out is at what point does a musical style become unredeemable? At one point does the fact that artist A is a fornicator or artist B is an atheist mean that the musical style is inappropriate?

Are you concerned more with the lifestyles and the sin surrounding many in the genre, or is it the formulation or instrumentation etc... that is your primary concern?[/QUOTE]

I thought the article nailed it with regard to the style when the author talked about the aggressive attitude and nature of the music itself. This would go for rock and punk as well.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 4, 2011)

Redness said:


> I thought the article nailed it with regard to the style when the author talked about the aggressive attitude and nature of the music itself. This would go for rock and punk as well.



Actually, the author discusses a number of reasons why he doesn't like rap. Most of the article seems concerned with the sin and worldliness of many in the genre and then draws conclusions based on this, which is why I asked about Hank. 



> The first problem I see with Christian rap is that rap as a genre has a lot of baggage. I don’t think anyone would deny that. Secular rap celebrates and glorifies things that are antithetical to the gospel; things like drugs, crime, promiscuous sex, hate, rebellion, and violence. In addition to these more obvious things, rap, and the culture that surrounds it, celebrates pride and arrogance. The clothing, the cars, the attitude, and more, all reflect self-centeredness and self-glorification.



Just to clarify, your concern has more to do with the nature of the music (the instrumentation and the beat) than the culture surrounding the genre?


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## JM (Jul 4, 2011)

Personally I have mixed feelings. 

In grade school and high school I was in a dance troop and rap group. I've won contests for dancing and rapping. When I became a Christian I started to find rap very distasteful and in time stopped listening to music in general. I was happy to find hip hop with sound theological leanings but still do not listen to it often. The music, for me, just brings up past sins, everything from violence to fornication so in general I avoid it. 

Is it bad for the church? I can't speak for the church at large but for me...the music has a negative affect on me. I'm weak in this area. A familiar baseline or sample in a song and I'm rattling off lyrics that I thought I forgot and these lyrics are not God glorifying. 

I pick a banjo now and sing hymns of praise, thanksgiving and sorrow over sin.

jm


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## Goodcheer68 (Jul 4, 2011)

I am not claiming to know God's mind, but Im wondering if any have considered that God in His sovereignty has ordained rap music to stem from the ghetto so that at some point He could use it to reach those in the Ghetto? Genesis 50:20 comes to mind. If you have never been to the ghetto, don't come to the ghetto you don't belong in the ghetto, but Shai Linn and the Voice have and are reaching those people in a biblical way, where Christ is preeminent in all that they proclaim. Their lyrics are amazing and drenched is doctrinally sound theology, and it seems to put to shame (lyrically speaking) most of all the CCM out today.


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## Scottish Lass (Jul 4, 2011)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Their lyrics are amazing and drenched is doctrinally sound theology, and it seems to put to shame (lyrically speaking) most of all the CCM out today.



I agree. I can't stand most CCM for this reason, but every example of reformed rap/hip hop I've heard has been lyrically and theologically sound.


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## Andres (Jul 4, 2011)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Their lyrics are amazing and drenched is doctrinally sound theology, and it seems to put to shame (lyrically speaking) most of all the CCM out today.



Perhaps this is more telling of the state of CCM today though.


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## Philip (Jul 4, 2011)

> I thought the article nailed it with regard to the style when the author talked about the aggressive attitude and nature of the music itself.



Which would only eliminate certain forms of rap. So ones with a soul or R&B beat would be fine?


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## ryanhamre (Jul 4, 2011)

If the style in which the lyrics were presented were removed to only put forth the text as a poem or a literary piece, would you then be OK with it?


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## lynnie (Jul 4, 2011)

The problem is the presupposition that music is morally neutral.

There is much research about the soothing qualities of certain music, and the good and bad emotional and physiological impacts of various music. All the way back to the Greek and Roman philosophers it was understood that music has a great impact on the soul and is not morally neutral at all.


It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 4, 2011)

I didn't realize that savages were rappers. Can you show me where this is true?


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 4, 2011)

lynnie said:


> It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.



Hmmm. Is this a "cultural-ist" statement?

As I mentioned earlier, I am definitely not a fan of rap. But, I certainly didn't envision the above when listening to Curt Allen rap about the Heidelberg Catechism.


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## Quickened (Jul 4, 2011)

lynnie said:


> It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.



What? Would you care to elaborate?


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## calgal (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks Eric! Good stuff!


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## Quickened (Jul 4, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> > It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.
> ...



Ha! That's one of the funnier posts i read here!


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## Rufus (Jul 4, 2011)

lynnie said:


> It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.



People can use music with pianos and other classical western instruments to put in the background of there anti-Christian movies or the background to any type of immorality, its not the music that makes it wrong but the act itself.


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## calgal (Jul 4, 2011)

lynnie said:


> The problem is the presupposition that music is morally neutral.
> 
> There is much research about the soothing qualities of certain music, and the good and bad emotional and physiological impacts of various music. All the way back to the Greek and Roman philosophers it was understood that music has a great impact on the soul and is not morally neutral at all.
> 
> ...



Are you joking? Please say you are being sarcastic.


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## Goodcheer68 (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow? That is quite baffling? I would venture to say that if someone who had never heard or knew anything about Rap music prior to hearing it for the first time, would probably never think of naked savages. That only comes with ones own presuppositions that anything with a beat comes from Satan. Could you explain how Rap = pictures of naked savages.


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## Herald (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm a 50 year old white guy who doesn't like rap. That said, I am not prepared to put rappers in Satan's camp. If you have a scruple regarding rap, that's fine; but be careful about painting word pictures that may offend Christian brothers or sisters.


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## Pergamum (Jul 4, 2011)

Some things that are fine for personal use are not fine for the official worship music of the church. That goes for all genres of music.


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## Reformed Roman (Jul 4, 2011)

I have very strong feelings about this. Rap is one of the things that no, God did not use to redeem me, but God has used to sanctify me. I listened to some of the worst hip hop imaginable before God saved me, but after I got saved rap helped me further understand what God really did in my salvation. It helped me understand how much God did for me. I would listen to many songs, weeping because of how great God is. Songs about the gospel. 

When I get greedy, and I just want things, and want things, I think of a song that says, "things could be better, but they could be worse, it's good to be last sometimes and not first...." and later, "be content, I'm not saying be complacent, but some things aren't for you, watch what your chasing". (By Young Joshua)

A song that can remind me to be content as God has commanded me. Or through the Atonement QnA song above, I learned what imputation was. 

The majority of us listen to music outside of church. And I love listening to hip hop. Lecrae has a song called "Desperate" and it's pretty much going over Psalm 51 and has been a comforting song to me in times I've sinned. 

It's just a way to bring out the gospel. God is using hip hop to reach a generation none of us expected to be reached, and a people that most people just give up on. 

Because God uses His Word.... and Christian hip hop uses the Word of God to change lives, and help us grow in Christ.

Without Christian Hip Hop, I never would have gotten around solid believers. Without Christian Hip Hop, I never would have known John Piper, Paul Washer, John Macarthur, Jerry Bridges, John Owen, Jonathan Owens, or any solid teachers. I was in a Christian church for years that taught you had to be baptized to be saved and you could lose your salvation. Through God placing biblical people in my life and growing me, I learned of the doctrines of grace. 

Yes, some things can come with Hip Hop. Just like they can come with Preaching. Being on a stage in front of people, and rapping, you can get caught up in coming up with the nicest rhymes. You can get prideful, but you can do that in any occupation or thing you do. When you submit to the LORD and use your gifts in humility, He can do wonders.

I praise God for hip hop. Without hip hop I wouldn't have met some of my best friends, people who lived in the hood but people who God redeemed. People who if you just looked at how they dressed, you would think they might be thugs. Just because they might wear their hat backwards. But they are people who love the LORD. People who LOVE His Word. Reformed brothers who I dig into the scriptures with. In fact, these guys are the most solid people I know.

Is it okay in a Worship Service? I don't see why not. As the main and official worship music? I wouldn't go that far. I would still myself be 50/50 on that. I would rather just sing hymns. We can get caught up in a genre of music we like and not get caught up in the SAVIOR.

Just because people use forks to kill people, doesn't mean we can't use them to eat. We show them how to use forks to the glory of God. Lame illustration, but it's the same thing with hip hop or any genre of music. Humility is key though, and making sure the Word is the thing that changes people, and not just people trying to do it on their own.


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## Curt (Jul 4, 2011)

If it wasn't translated from Latin.... Just saying....


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## ryanhamre (Jul 4, 2011)

Redness said:


> Reformed Rap: My Thoughts at Christian Research Net


This article is a good example of legalism.


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## Reformed Roman (Jul 4, 2011)

Also

This is quoted from the article

"To deny that words have meaning is to deny the authority of Scripture. Likewise, individual musical notes and sounds are not right or wrong in and of themselves, but the message they convey, and the spirit of that message, can have moral significance."


Exactly. What makes you think they are talking in arrogance? Because the guy is wearing sunglasses? Joyful Noise, the song in the video you posted, always made me grateful for what God did. I didn't listen to it getting man centered. I listened to the lyrics, and just because they were on a catchy beat and got my head bobbing, doesn't mean that the song was sinful or brought pride. 

Dancing while your singing, or even dancing in a different fashion then people are used to, doesn't mean there was pride involved.

It's about the words, and the content. Music is neutral. How you use the music is a different issue.


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## Reformed Roman (Jul 4, 2011)

In fact, I've probably cried multiple times listening to that song thinking of what Christ did for me, and used it in "personal worship" just reflecting on the goodness of God. 

And as a Christian Hip Hop song says,

"I came from it, you can label me dirt, but don't call me fake because I don't wear suits to the church,

the dude who wears jeans or a suit, who's worse? Clothes don't make up a mans worth,

Pimps wear suits, drug dealers too, but you don't see us labeling those things on you". 

Trust me, this song is extremely Christ centered, but I think an important concept can come from the song.

We can't get legalistic. Some people look different. They sound different. Different cultures do things differently. Just because people wear suits doesn't mean they are drug dealers or pimps. Many drug dealers and pimps give a bad name to people who wear suits. Just like people who rap can give a bad name for rap. That doesn't mean wearing a suit is wrong. That doesn't mean rapping is wrong.


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## Pergamum (Jul 4, 2011)

I would rather hear Lecrea in church than to hear the schmaltsy "In the Garden"... "As he walks with me and he talks with me..." or "I know that Jesus lives, because He ...lives...within...my ...heart..." Aargh, those 1910-1920's hymns are some of the worst.


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## Andres (Jul 4, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> Just because people use forks to kill people, doesn't mean we can't use them to eat.



Actually, it means exactly that. Ever been to prison? I'm not trying to be funny here either.


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## Reformed Roman (Jul 4, 2011)

Maybe they can't use forks in prison. With good reason. That doesn't mean I can't use forks to the glory of God in my home.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1rm89CO2raZYdo_FdFun3YGS6aYQYUgdy5y-3R3WXaZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b-0SfOgy8c&playnext=1&list=PLF5EB469B3FE78C21

The first link is the lyrics... R.C Sproul is on the introduction to the song. Every single line minus a couple was talking about a certain scripture directly. 

Christian Hip Hop has some of the most theologically sound lyrics out of any genre of music at all. Even more sound then most worship music.

We don't need to be legalistic and run from many means to share the gospel. Yes, it's completely about the Word of God and the gospel. But we can use genres of music, poetry, writings, movies, or many other things to turn people to the Word of God and the gospel. I just hope people here can realize that


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## Philip (Jul 4, 2011)

> It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.



So you would object to Christians who listen to Stravinsky?


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## Scottish Lass (Jul 4, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> I would rather hear Lecrea in church than to hear the schmaltsy "In the Garden"... "As he walks with me and he talks with me..." or "I know that Jesus lives, because He ...lives...within...my ...heart..." Aargh, those 1910-1920's hymns are some of the worst.



I'd rather hear neither in worship, but on my own time I'll pick Lecrea or Shai Linne, etc. every time.


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## ChristianTrader (Jul 5, 2011)

Joshua said:


> Typically, the poor influence of music upon a particular person is attached to the lyrics or sinful nostalgia associated with that music.



According to whom?

CT


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## davenporter (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, here are my responses to your points. And sorry I haven't read everyones' replies yet, but I was interested so I decided to reply.

1. Christian music as a genre has a lot of baggage, including hymns and especially contemporary worship songs. Look at all the hymns and modern Christian songs that are totally devoid of gospel and honor for God. At least unbelievers know what they're worshipping -- the "Christian" radio station is more of a "feel good about ourselves" station rather than a worship God station. Just saying. Paul found a catalyst on Mars Hill to reach the Gentiles; can't Christians today use music as a catalyst for reaching sinners?

To your second problem: Rap musicians tend to preach more gospel than worship musicians do. Often they take breaks in between songs to PREACH, and their "mini-sermons" tend to be more powerful and gospel-filled than a lot of the pulpit preaching I've heard! Plus, rap music is closer to speech than music in song, and therefore as a genre it is the closest to "preaching" in the sense that the Scriptures describe.

Third, what? How does this show that speech-music (i.e. rap) is inherently sinful conduct?

Why would you limit the gospel like this? Can God use music for His glory? Does God use music for His glory? Can God use musicians who preach the gospel to spread the gospel? Does God use musicians who preach the gospel to spread it? What about black culture where preaching almost becomes rapping sometimes? I've heard it where they start getting into a rhythm and their preaching really sounds like a rap song. Is that wrong? Do we need to reform black culture because it is less than godly since they aren't "dignified" like us? Just sayin'.

Now, your last paragraph is understandable. I can see how you could have issues with that video-- but I don't think the situation is as grave as you think it is. Or maybe it's worse -- a lot of musicians and worship leaders can get pretty cocky. Anyway, your last few paragraphs were a lot better than your outline of reasons. I'd reconsider your post and whether you really want to leave it as is: Reformed Rap: My Thoughts at Christian Research Net


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## Moireach (Jul 5, 2011)

I haven't read any of the comments, but my thoughts are rap doesn't sound like a method of singing that is suitable for a whole congregation to sing in union, and I don't see a place for a singular performance in the church. So for these reasons alone, no.


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## Redness (Jul 5, 2011)

A while ago I heard a fantastic, very convicting sermon by ...I think Angus Stewart, called Pitching Your Tent Sodom. For a long time after hearing it I would ask myself while watching tv, 'am I pitching my tent toward Sodom?' No, I can't watch shows like Sex in the City, No, I can't watch shows like Scrubs, etc (even if they're funny and don't cause ME to sin, but in the watching). Now if you watch the performance video you have to consider, are we encouraging our kids to pitch their tent toward Sodom? It looks like the typical night club scene. 

This idea that God is using rap to reach people is unbiblical (in my opinion). God said _preach _the gospel and not to depend on man's wisdom and eloquence in oratory. This is entertainment plain and simple (in my opinion). To those who say the rap caused them to reach an emotional state I say... why does it take the rap or any music? Isn't the Bible enough? What about the preaching? Just as with the average evangelical, the music created by men gets elevated and the Bible gets diminished. Now along side the Bible in every pew is the man-made hymn book. Try taking that book away and you'll have a war on your hands.

The danger is seen in the video, our children are being conditioned to that scene. This is where it will lead them, the night club. Tell your kids after you've allowed them to buy the CD that they can't go watch the performances. It is in our chruches being used to "reach" the young. Why do our young NEED this to be reached? Again, music is being elevated above the Word. Why are our churches beginning to trust in entertainment to keep our kids in the faith or to enhance it and make it more appealing? 

But that's just me, I don't really listen to music anymore anyway. I've thrown that over for the Bible and Sermon Audio and I only let my children listen to classical/instrumental. And because of my instruction, they don't even like the other styles. Rap is particularly repugnant as I was raised in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's and this was the musical style of the gangs that ran around killing people and terrorizing the City.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 5, 2011)

Moireach said:


> I haven't read any of the comments, but my thoughts are rap doesn't sound like a method of singing that is suitable for a whole congregation to sing in union, and I don't see a place for a singular performance in the church. So for these reasons alone, no.



I am glad you feel this way. You are in harmony with the rest of the board. No one is advocating rap in church service.

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Redness said:


> A while ago I heard a fantastic, very convicting sermon by ...I think Angus Stewart, called Pitching Your Tent Sodom. For a long time after hearing it I would ask myself while watching tv, 'am I pitching my tent toward Sodom?' No, I can't watch shows like Sex in the City, No, I can't watch shows like Scrubs, etc (even if they're funny and don't cause ME to sin, but in the watching). Now if you watch the performance video you have to consider, are we encouraging our kids to pitch their tent toward Sodom? It looks like the typical night club scene.
> 
> This idea that God is using rap to reach people is unbiblical (in my opinion). God said _preach _the gospel and not to depend on man's wisdom and eloquence in oratory. This is entertainment plain and simple (in my opinion). To those who say the rap caused them to reach an emotional state I say... why does it take the rap or any music? Isn't the Bible enough? What about the preaching? Just as with the average evangelical, the music created by men gets elevated and the Bible gets diminished. Now along side the Bible in every pew is the man-made hymn book. Try taking that book away and you'll have a war on your hands.
> 
> ...



Well you better not let your kids listen to Tchaikovsky. He probably died of syphilis and we know how one gets that. Don't listen to Chopin, he lived his life fornicating with a woman who cross dressed and lived her life as if she was a man. Don't listen to Liszt because he was a playa before the term was invented. He even made his way into the beds of queens and princesses. Don't listen to Bach. He was accused of sleeping with the organist in the practice room during Sunday morning sermons. Don't listen to Russian composers because they were communists and we all know how bad they are. Don't listen to Mozart, he liked to write graphic love letters to women and would include graphic drawings with them. Schubert had syphilis as well. 

These composers were homosexuals so make sure not to listen to them either.

And a couple from Broadway.

Peter Tchaikovsky, Symphony 6, First Piano Concerto, Swan Lake (ballet), 1812 Overture

Benjamin Britten & Peter Pears (Beloveds) Serenade, Les Illuminations, Nocturnes, Peter Grimes, Four Sea Interludes, Suite on English Folk Tunes,

Aaron Copleland, Rodeo, Appalachian Spring, Fanfare of the Common Man, Lincoln Portrait

Lou Harrison, Elegy in Memory of Calvin Simmons *, Solstices, Symphony No. 4, Guitar & Percussion, Serenade
*Calvin Simmons was the First African-American Conductor and first conductor of the Oakland Symphony, who drowned in a boating accident
.Samuel Barber, Violin Concerto, Adagio for Strings, Symphony No. 1

Leonard Bernstein, West Side Story, Mass, 

John Ireland, Download Suite, The Forgotten Rite, The Overlanders Suite, Satyricon, Tritons, A London Overture, These Things Shall Be, Greater Love Hath No Man, the Holy Boy, Vexilla Regis, Epic March



Cole Porter, Anything Goes, I Get a Kick Out of You, Let's Do It (Let's Fall in Love), I've Got You under My Skin, My Heart Belongs to Daddy

Francis Jean Marcel Poulenc, Les Biches, Dialogues of the Carmelites, Sinfonietta, Concerto for Organ, Strings and Timpani in G minor, Stabat Mater, Gloria, Deux poèmes d'Apollinaire

Charles-Camille Saint-Saëns, The Organ Symphony (#3), Carnival of Animals, Danse Macabre, Samson & Delilah. 

Stephen Sondheim, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,Company, Follies, A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods and Assassins, as well as the lyrics for West Side Story and Gypsy.

Georg Philipp Telemann, Cantatas, Chamber Music, Orchestral Suites


So with all this sinful lifestyle that classical music composers live, maybe you shouldn't listen to classical music either.


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## Andres (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow! I'm thoroughly impressed by your composer/classical music knowledge. I've learned quite a bit in reading that post.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 5, 2011)

That article was terrible and I find it hard to believe that it was on a website labeled "Christian Research". It was nothing but opinion and preference. Your basic argument is that because "the world" has twisted something and is done in a sinful manner more often than not, then don't do it. Well, if that is the case Christians must cease marital sexual intimacy, driving cars, and eating food (along with..well other things). I may be wrong but I thought part of the Gospel story was that God was using the Church to bring about His new creation and that part of that included "redeeming" certain things that had been taken by the world, like music.


> The reason this concerns and troubles me is because God saved me out of the punk rock culture


 Then you have a personal weakness for "punk rock" music. It cause's you to sin. It doesn't cause me to sin. So no, I won't take you to a "Christian Punk Rock show" but at the same time I am not going to cease listening to music which can give glory to God in a punk rock style. Why does this article not decry the hypocritical lifestyle of country western? A genre where an artist can sing a great hymn on one track and then turn around and sing about lewd behavior with a girl they met at a bar on the next track? 



> The second problem I see is that mediums such as Christian Rap are often justified because they are “reaching” people. This is a big problem– it is clearly unscriptural to view music as a tool for evangelism. Scripture unequivocally states that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe for the very reason that it shouldn’t work (1 Cor. 1:21). When it does, God gets the glory and not man.



So, God never used any other means than expository preaching from a pulpit to bring someone to himself? False. The Ethiopian eunich was brought to faith by someone explaining the Scriptures to him on a road in the middle of the desert. Now, I believe that Scripture is the primary means but not the sole means to bring people to faith.

What you have to show is that a music style is, on its own, sinful. That no matter what you can say through it that that musical style is sinful. You, basically, have to show that the Bible has a list of musical styles that are sinful and a list of those that are not. There is no such list.l


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 5, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jkHZP0UPrY&feature=related

Look at all this showboating. How proud and sinful this is! (Sarcasm). Lecrae is one of the most humble and Godly musicians I have ever listened to.


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## Redness (Jul 5, 2011)

In the end we shall see for a tree is know by it's fruit.


Here's some fruit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCIbq0Vs4I4


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## Andres (Jul 5, 2011)

Joseph Scibbe said:


> That article was terrible and I find it hard to believe that it was on a website labeled "Christian Research". It was nothing but opinion and preference. Your basic argument is that because "the world" has twisted something and is done in a sinful manner more often than not, then don't do it. Well, if that is the case Christians must cease marital sexual intimacy, driving cars, and eating food (along with..well other things). I may be wrong but I thought part of the Gospel story was that God was using the Church to bring about His new creation and that part of that included "redeeming" certain things that had been taken by the world, like music.



I don't know if your examples completely line up. For example, we know sexual intimacy was created good, by God, for His glory. Same thing with food. Cars might be a bit more debatable, but they are pretty ambiguous. You can use cars for good or for evil, so I see your point there. 
You say we are to redeem certain things, but why are we to assume rap music is one of them? This is my issue. As others have mentioned no, I don’t view music as inherently evil. Yes, people can change rap lyrics and make them edifying rather than destructive. But why do we presume we need to do this? Where I agree with the OP and the linked article is that rap is so intimately associated with violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc. that I say just leave it to the world.


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## Reformed Roman (Jul 5, 2011)

The fruit? He said everything was built around Jesus. If you listened to the lyrics you would see that's true.

Is jumping up and down sinful? Seriously? 

Is dancing sinful? Just because people dance a certain way in a night club doesn't mean it's sinful to dance in any similar way any way else...

Now I would say bumping and grinding is dead wrong, and dancing like that,

but just because this music reminds you of things from your past you assume it's sinful. This music is God centered, and just because people dance or just because people dress differently, and might dress like someone you might see in a night club, again, doesn't mean it's sinful. 

This might be how this music affects you. Every time you listen to this type of music it might fully remind you of your old lifestyle of whatever the case may be. All the jumping around might remind you of old sinful ways. Well, that's you, and I'd advise you to listen to different music.

But me? I can jump around in WORSHIP of God. Just thanking God for what He's done. I listen to the lyrics, and these lyrics impact me, and bring me back to the Word of God.

The lyrics are full of humility, right after a song you will see the humility. The only pride you seem to see is because they jump, or because they will use their hands expressively when they rap. Again as many are saying your just jumping the gun on rap because your past experiences with it.


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## ryanhamre (Jul 5, 2011)

Andres said:


> Where I agree with the OP and the linked article is that rap is so intimately associated with violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc. that I say just leave it to the world.


I do not agree in the least. If your standard of association for anything is its relation to violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc., than anything outside of God is going to fit this mold of association.

Singing, dancing, going to work, the mall, internet, eating, etc.


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## Zenas (Jul 5, 2011)

lynnie said:


> The problem is the presupposition that music is morally neutral.



I don't see how that is a problem, but a necessary baseline that any question begins at. Until shown otherwise, is anything any different? The burden is on the party asserting that it ought to be immoral to show what moral maxim exists that music or a particular genre violates. It's only logical to me, but perhaps I'm not thinking of the issue clearly. 



> There is much research about the soothing qualities of certain music, and the good and bad emotional and physiological impacts of various music. All the way back to the Greek and Roman philosophers it was understood that music has a great impact on the soul and is not morally neutral at all.



I don't see how this relates to the question of music being inherently moral or immoral. Will you explain a little? 



> It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.



Maybe rap music brings that to mind for you, but it doesn't for me. That has more to do with your subjective experiences and biases than anything else. I certainly don't think of that when I listen to rap. 

I'm a white upper-middle class guy with two children and a wife in a suburb out on the country. I appreciate rap music very, very much despite the sterotypes associated with me and with rap music. If I were to turn rap music off because it is worldly, my radio would have to be tuned to... well it'd just have to be off or playing sermons from my iPod (which isn't a bad option either). To reject rap but still listen to any other genre of music is extremely inconsistent. Even the sappy CCM that is circulated around mimics a worldly genre, usually country or pop music. There is no "CMM" genre of music that exists because of the style of music that it is. CMM is so as a result of the lyrical content. The musical style is still a (very dim) shadow of a worldly musical style. 

The arguments against rap music are so tied to the culture that surrounds it that I can't see how they apply to a group of rappers who are completely seperate from that culture; who go so far as to reject it and use rap to preach against it. If the culture surrounding rap is abandonded, then all you're left with is a style of music that focuses on beat-driven lyrics rather than a repetitive melody and celebrates, moreso than other forms of music, clever lyrical ability.

I don't see the requirement that the whole genre be tossed out but we retain country music. I think we as Reformed folk do ourselves a disservice when we try to argue as such and expose a deep-rooted cultural bias that has no grounding in God's Word, but merely flows from personal preference, which we then try to use to bind the consciences of others. We appear foolish, and for all the wrong reasons.

Past that, the "Reformed Rap" crowd is just about the only "contemporary Christian" artists I can enjoy. There are some other groups or CDs that have new takes on hyms that I enjoy, but a large portion of the CMM that I've heard that is self-composed and not using a hymn suffers from two problems: Bad or shallow theology and terrible music overall that simply tries to "ape" a worldly genre (and poorly at that).

I don't find this problem with the rappers. Whereas CCM artists poorly mimic whatever genre they're trying to employ, the Reformed Rappers own it. They're good rappers by anyone's standards. Were they not "Christian" artists, they'd still be considered talented. I don't think too many CCM artists would necessarily have music careers if they weren't singing "Jesus Take the Wheel" or "I Can Only Imagine". Which brings me to my next point: strong theology. Other than Derek Webb, I'm not familiar with any CCM artists who delve terribly deep into any theological issues. Conversely, the rap artists are addressing heavy theological issues in the middle of a rap song that'd be difficult to compose without using theological terms from the 17th century. That's not only talent, but it's edifying.


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