# O.P.C. and Heidelberg Catechism?



## Irishcat922 (Dec 31, 2004)

I have run across a few people who have left the CRC and came over to the OPC. I was discussing the Confession with one the other day, and he mentioned that there was alot of people within the OPC who want to adopt the HC rather than using the WCF. Any one heard anything else about this? I don't like it one bit.

[Edited on 31-12-2004 by Irishcat922]


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## fredtgreco (Dec 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> I have run across a few people who have left the CRC and came over to the OPC. I was discussing the Confession with one the other day, and he mentioned that there was alot of people within the OPC who want to adopt the HC rather than using the WCF. Any one heard anything else about this? I don't like it one bit.
> 
> [Edited on 31-12-2004 by Irishcat922]



Will never happen. Practical roadblocks are immense.

But what I could see happening (and would not mind) is if Confessional Scot/English and Dutch churches (OPC, PCA, URC, etc) got together and made BOTH the standards. I would do that for greater unity. There really is no substantive difference.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 31, 2004)

That's actually how the Reformed Church of New Zealand doe sit. They combined the standards. Not a bad idea really. As to the Heidelburg being made an OPC confession, I've never heard of this happening and I've been there 4 years. I know there has been a large immigration of Dutch brethren to the OPC over the last few years due in part to the falling away of the CRC but there is no popular movement to add any Confessions. It's actually the opposite, they keep moving away from confessional subscription at all.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 31, 2004)

I agree that the HC and the WCF complement each other and could help to promote Christian unity without sacrificing orthodoxy. Speaking as a individual and not on behalf of my denomination, I'm all for combining the standards.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 31, 2004)

I think the Idea of using both is good. I think to often the WCF gets a bad wrap. I have used the HC for family devotions before, It has a good devotional quality about it.


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## Peter (Dec 31, 2004)

While a very heart warming and evangelical document, the HC lacks the theological depth and precision of the WCF. It serves its purpose as a catechism very well but as an ecclesiastical confession I think that would be just silly. A statement of Credo in basically a devotional of Q & A format?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 31, 2004)

Your point is well taken, Peter, that it is obviously a catechism rather than a confession as we understand it, but I don't think that this presents a problem. Catechism, as I understand it, was an historic method of confessing one's faith. In reading the history of the HC, it appears that this was the framework that Ursinus used: http://www.reformed.org/documents/heidelberg_intro.html 

I think the HC fails to address some things that a confession should, and I think the Westminster Assembly's catechisms are superior, but I give Ursinus much, much credit for his work and I think that if adding the HC as a constitutional document to one's denomination could promote Christian unity then I'm all for it.


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## Peter (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks for the link Andrew. Heidelberg am Rhein is actually one of my favorite cities. I toured the castle but dont remember visiting any sites significant in reformation history. Its a very beautiful city. I wish I knew more about the city's history and more about those in Germany who continued the Reformation beyond Luther and Melancthon. I suppose the Reformed in Germany dont subscribe to the Belgic Confession, so the HC would have been all they had?


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## JohnV (Dec 31, 2004)

I think the OPC already has a statement concerning the TFU, that it recognizes them as also an expression of faith. I think that means that someone can appeal to them and that the OPC will uphold it, even though the WCF is actually the primary Biblical Standard of Faith. 

And I don't agree with you, Peter and Andrew. I can see your point, but I just don't see the HC, BC, or the CD as having less theological depth. I see the difference more as being one of technical vs. practical, or head vs. heart. I think we need both, like Fred intimated. But I don't think that the TFU can be accused of lack of theological depth. I would think it the other way around, actually, with the TFU expressing a more mature faith. 

But I hope you realize that this may just be my bias showing up again. I grew up with the TFU, and being now in the OPC I am shocked at some things. It certainly does not display a greater depth theologically. So that would surely colour my view, which, I agree, is not exactly fair. I don't have a wide understanding of the OPC, admittedly.

Right now I am in a very disappointed and critical stage of life, without any real tie to any one particular set of doctrines except what my heart believes. And that does not disparage between the two sets right now. I see the value of both, as well as some of the downfalls in how both are practiced. I think that we have a lot to gain from both, but that both will require a great deal of carefull consideration by each group. They both feed off the same root system, so there is no need for the branches to gloat over the leaves, or vice versa.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 31, 2004)

Peter, 

Heidelberg looks like a wonderful place to visit! Check this out: http://www.reformationtours.com/site/490868/page/180546

I toured Germany myself once some years ago and was blessed to visit some Reformation sites before I even knew about the Reformed Faith. I visited the Castle Wartburg where Luther translated the Bible into German, Erfurt, and his birthplace in Eisenach (also Bach's birthplace) as well as some RC historical sites and Beethoven's birthplace in Bonn. 

I think you are right about the German Reformed Church adhering to the HC primarily. I'm sure there were influences from the other Reformed confessions of the day (1500s) too - Gallic, Belgic and Scots, plus the Lutheran Augsburg Confession. Germany was not even a unified nation at the time, although Luther helped to make it so. The German Reformed Church does have an interesting history, and played an important role in American church history, but has today mostly become a part of the larger ecumenical movement via congregationalism.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> And I don't agree with you, Peter and Andrew. I can see your point, but I just don't see the HC, BC, or the CD as having less theological depth. I see the difference more as being one of technical vs. practical, or head vs. heart. I think we need both, like Fred intimated. But I don't think that the TFU can be accused of lack of theological depth. I would think it the other way around, actually, with the TFU expressing a more mature faith.
> 
> But I hope you realize that this may just be my bias showing up again. I grew up with the TFU, and being now in the OPC I am shocked at some things. It certainly does not display a greater depth theologically. So that would surely colour my view, which, I agree, is not exactly fair. I don't have a wide understanding of the OPC, admittedly.
> ...



John,

My comments thus far have been confined to the HC. The BC, I think, is especially remarkable given the timeframe of its origin. The CD was specific to a situation that had to be addressed, and it was addressed very well. I don't have any complaints against any of the TFU. I do think that the Westminster formulations are superior, but I would not necessarily characterize them as more spiritually mature. I'm sure we all have our biases about the confessions, but the point I was addressing was whether it would profitable to combine in some manner the WC and the HC to promote Christian unity, and that is an idea which appeals to me. To expand on that, the WC and the TFU together could make an even stronger confession of Christian unity. I'm not as well-versed in the TFU but if there are any significant areas of disagreement I'm not aware. I know that the Reformed Churches can all profit from each other's confessions as iron sharpens iron.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 31, 2004)

Remember that the Catechism is actually just one of the standards in the Three Forms of Unity. The others are the Belgic _Confession_ and the Canons of Dordt.


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## tdowns (Jan 31, 2005)

*HC vs WMC*

Is it true that the HC does not hold to the Sabbath the same way that the WMC does?

From reading most the posts on this site, I was under the impression that "all" reformed churches held to the Sabbath being the rest day, no different from old testament, but I spoke to a friend today who said his reformed church as well as others he knows of don't hold to that. They hold to the view that our sabbath is Christ All the time, we find our rest in him, but nothing wrong with spending extra time sunday, just not a law. I think he said it was the United Reformed? Could be something diff. but he def. said HC did not speak/hold to sabath the "strict" way that the WMC did.

Seeking info, if already discussed please point me in right direction.

TDRevolver


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 31, 2005)

Here is the HC treatment on the Lord's Day:



> Question 103. What does God require in the fourth commandment?
> 
> Answer: First, that the ministry of the gospel and the schools be maintained; (a) and that I, especially on the sabbath, that is, on the day of rest, diligently frequent the church of God, (b) to hear his word, (c) to use the sacraments, (d) publicly to call upon the Lord, (e) and contribute to the relief of the poor. (f) Secondly, that all the days of my life I cease from my evil works, and yield myself to the Lord, to work by his Holy Spirit in me: and thus begin in this life the eternal sabbath. (g)
> 
> (a) Tit.1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 2 Tim.3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 2 Tim.3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim.5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Cor.9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 1 Cor.9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 1 Cor.9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 2 Tim.2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (b) Ps.40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. Ps.40:11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. Ps.68:27 There is little Benjamin with their ruler, the princes of Judah and their council, the princes of Zebulun, and the princes of Naphtali. Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, (c) 1 Tim.4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Cor.14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Cor.14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 1 Cor.14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (d) 1 Cor.11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. (e) 1 Tim.2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1 Tim.2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1 Tim.2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Tim.2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 1 Tim.2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1 Tim.2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1 Tim.2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1 Cor.14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? (f) 1 Cor.16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (g) Isa.66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.



And here is the WCF treatment on the Lord's Day:



> VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]
> 
> VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]



And the WLC:



> Question 115: Which is the fourth commandment?
> 
> Answer: The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
> 
> ...


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## tdowns (Jan 31, 2005)

*Very nice, thanks*

Thanks, a great help, I'll read them over aqain, and again, and then I def. need to add those to my daily readings, I'm going to pick them up this week.

TD


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> Thanks, a great help, I'll read them over aqain, and again, and then I def. need to add those to my daily readings, I'm going to pick them up this week.
> 
> TD



Cool!


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## future expatriate (Feb 5, 2005)

I was actually under the impression that the HC was the OPC's adopted standards for the first three months or so that I attended my church. I wouldn't have any real objections to it being adopted, but I favor the WCF.

I wonder if the strict subscriptionist debate would carry over to the HC...


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## RamistThomist (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by future expatriate_
> I was actually under the impression that the HC was the OPC's adopted standards for the first three months or so that I attended my church. I wouldn't have any real objections to it being adopted, but I favor the WCF.
> 
> I wonder if the strict subscriptionist debate would carry over to the HC...



Being new to the creeds and Confessions, I thought the same thing. Our pastor was preaching through the HC on Sunday nights.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 5, 2005)

I think that combining the two confessions would be a bad idea. Why? It would give potential pastors more to take exceptions to, and more information for presbyterians to have a theological handle around. Let's help them get ahold of the WCF first!


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## tdowns (Feb 13, 2005)

*From Scott\'s other post, tie in question*

Scott you stated,

.Question: Do you ascribe to the WCF or the LBC? It is a requirement for participation. The sabbath is clearly drawn out in both documents (as well as the catechisms).

Where does Heidleberg Cat. (HC?) fit in above?

I have gotten the feeling that some reformed camps do not hold to "Strict" Sabatarianism, but maybe there is a range in the area of "Strict".

I've read what the HC and WCF say, but, seemingly, the (United Reformed Church?) is much looser in their interpretation. 

I'm just trying to get a handle on Sabatarianism, strict sabatarianism, what's the range you on the board are acceptable with?

For example, are you saying that it is unacceptible to have Church on any day but Sunday like your Pastor example and Sat. night?

What churches or denominations do you guys consider holding to the correct view of Sabatarianism?

TDRevolver


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## Poimen (Mar 6, 2005)

As someone who has grown up in the (Dutch) Reformed churches I have a great love and respect for our 3 Forms of Unity. The longer I preach and teach from the Heidelberg the more I see why it has been adopted and adhered to by many of those in the Reformed tradition.


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## Poimen (Mar 6, 2005)

Having said that I greatly appreciate the WCF and catechisms as complimenting the 3 Forms of Unity. Look to Westminster West (my alma mater) and Mid-America Reformed Seminary who have adopted both traditions within their curriculum. 

It's wrong to drive a wedge between them. Let's use them both to work for greater Reformed ecumenicity and brotherhood.


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## JohnV (Mar 6, 2005)

As I have a foot in both places, so to speak, I agree with pastor Kok. 

The way I would like to see it is that the TFU take precedence, but not because they are better. The WS (Westminster Standards) are more technical, so to speak, or more indepth, but the TFU are more pointed to a deeper heart for the faith. Now that I've been introduced to both, I really can't see how one set of standards can be without the other. I would put the Belgic Confession or the Heidelberg Catechism before the Westminster counterparts only because they are geared more to speaking the gospel to the heart of the person seeking the truth and the witness of the Church in the faith. But when he wants to know more, or more precisely, then the Westminster Standards are there to both support and supplement what the TFU have imbedded. 

The reason I say that is because I've been in both atmospheres. The Dutch Reformed don't have near the scholarly depth the Presbyterians have; but I've found that the Presbyterians don's have near the depth of conviction and heart the Dutch Reformed have. But don't take my word for it. I am quite aware that my view of both Reformed styles, especially the Presbyterians, is jaded by the experiences. I may feel differently if I was brought up in the Presbyaterian tradition, and know that what I've experienced is more a modern anomoly than regular practice. 

You will never ever find some things in the Dutch churches that you find quite easily in the Presbyterian churches, and vice versa. At least that's my experience so far. The bottom line for me is that both standards have become only more dear to me as I compare them, or as I do without the one in favour of the other, depending on the church denomination I am attending. I missed the TFU in the OPC at times, and now I miss the WS at times. But you can be sure that I carry both sets with me all the time. And its never one against the other, but one supplementing the other.


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## bigheavyq (Apr 20, 2005)

I seem to be naive here, but what is the "3 forms of unity"? please give a detailed answer.


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## Poimen (Apr 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bigheavyq_
> I seem to be naive here, but what is the "3 forms of unity"? please give a detailed answer.



They are three confessional documents of (Dutch) Reformed churches. Instead of having one (such as the WCF) we have adopted three over time to supplement the breadth and depth of Reformed theology.

The first is the Belgic Confession, written in 1561 by Guido De Bres, a pastor-theologian of the Reformed churches in the Lowlands (Belgium/Holland). He studied under Calvin and came back to defend his faith against the Spanish who sought to impose Catholicism on the Dutch. Legend has it that he threw the confession over the wall of the city of Doornik and then ran for his life because he was considered a heretic. He was later marytred for his faith. The confession was written largely to suppress the slander that the Reformed were just another form of Anabaptists, as well as refuting the Catholic faith and promoting the true Christian religion.

The second is the Heidelberg Catechism, written in 1563 by Caspar Olevianus and Zacharias Ursinus. These two men were appointed by Frederick III of the Palitinate (a province in Germany) to write a catechism which espoused central Christian, Protestant truths. Particularly the catechism addresses the Lutheran understanding of the two natures of Christ and it's relation to the Lord's Supper and promotes the Reformed teaching of the Supper. This catechism is one of the most widely disseminated and translated of all Reformed catechisms.

Third and final, we have the Canons of Dordrect which were written as a response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants in 1618-1619. The (Dutch) state called a Synod in Dordrecht, Holland wherein representatives from all over the country met to discuss the particulars of the Calvinist understanding of the doctrines of sovereign grace. It was an ecumenical synod which drew from dozens of countries and their Reformed representatives, such as England, Germany, the Czech Republic, France, Poland and the like. The end result is what we commonly call the five points of Calvinism and it is enshrined as one of the documents to which all Reformed people subscribe.

The Three Forms of Unity are available at:

http://www.burlingtonocrc.com/Confessions.html

(not a little subtle plug for my congregation!).


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## Me Died Blue (Apr 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> They are three confessional documents of (Dutch) Reformed churches. Instead of having one (such as the WCF) we have adopted three over time to supplement the breadth and depth of Reformed theology.



The Presbyterian churches have three as well of course, since the Larger and Shorter Catechisms accompany the WCF.

Personally, I agree that it would be a good idea to use both sets of three in the same church for greater unity with uncompromised doctrine - the main issue that would likely be brought to the front if that ever happened would be church government.


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## Poimen (Apr 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by poimen_
> ...



Yes I should have been more clear. What I meant was that the (Dutch) Reformed churches have adopted their standards over time and place and persons, whereas the Presbyterian tradition has their documents from one time and one place and one group of persons.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 18, 2005)

Interesting quote:

"The Synod of Dort, representing as it did almost all the Reformed Churches and containing a great proportion of theologians of the highest talents, learning and character, is entitled to a larger measure of respect and deference than any other council recorded in the history of the church." -- William Cunningham, _The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation_ (The Banner of Truth Trust, Edinburgh, 1967), p. 367


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## raderag (Aug 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> ...



We could call it the four forms of unity.


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## JohnV (Aug 18, 2005)

Or Heidelminster.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 18, 2005)




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