# To Sabbatarians: What is the Pastoral response to those who can't keep the Sabbath?



## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

What would you say to someone (such as myself), who is theologically persuaded that it is necessary to keep the Sabbath, but literally live in an environment where Sundays are necessary to be worked on, in just about every field to be employed in? What happens when you absolutely _have_ to work the Sabbath, or every other Sabbath, and simply cannot find a whole 24 hours on the Lord's Day (or even Saturday for that matter) to not work? How do you counsel people in those instances? Let's assume that you can't quit your job, and there are no deals that can be worked out with your employer.


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## Parakaleo (Jan 28, 2018)

Are we talking about works of necessity?


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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

Parakaleo said:


> Are we talking about works of necessity?



Maybe I don't know of any other kind. This isn't something like doing the lawn or cleaning the garage or at home working on a presentation that could wait. Those are all tasks that can wait until another time that isn't the Sabbath.

I mean to say that the job in which you are employed requires you come in and work on Sunday, and let us also assume that you live in an area where everywhere but the bank is open on Sundays (and I'm certain that not everyone in the town is called by God to be bankers). What do you do when it is literally an impossibility to keep the Sabbath and rest, but you are forced according to your situation to work on the Sabbath?


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## Parakaleo (Jan 28, 2018)

Works of true necessity are authorized by Christ and reinforced through his teaching that the Sabbath was made for man. God gave the Sabbath as a gift for man's health and well-being, physically and spiritually. Doing any work that, if NOT done, would directly lead to the harm of men, is therefore in keeping with Sabbath observance.

What can never be in keeping with Sabbath observance is money-making ventures, driven by hope of worldly increase. This flies in the face of the Fourth Commandment and is actually base and unnatural, since God has woven the Sabbath command into the moral fabric of the universe. All men must cease from their worldly labors and recognize their Creator one day in seven, or else they do what is unnatural.

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## Scott Bushey (Jan 28, 2018)

My counsel would be to find other work-one that would allow u to be present in church on the sabbath day. I would be realistic. That being, it takes time to find a new job, but you should be actively pursuing a new position for the sake of yourself and family.

Works of necessity: There is a widening line to what this actually means in this age. For example, is it necessary that you work on the sabbath? yes, u need to pay bills, feed your family etc. This is the only day your employer is providing. So, it is necessary.

I don't believe that this is how the term is defined-at least, not properly. W of N are jobs like police officers, hospital workers, doctors, firemen, etc. However, I believe this is abused in our age as well; like there are Christians in positions as such and they accept these days without any argument. They are passive participants. It should be the goal of all believers to let our employers know that we are commanded not to work on the Sabbath day and if there is anyone else on the staff willing to work the day, it would benefit your spiritual need. We should not just accept the request to work the day just because it is necessary-what if you were told that u have to work all Sabbath days? Would that be acceptable?

Works of mercy: If you are doing a work of mercy, should u accept payment for your mercy?

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## Ed Walsh (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> What happens when you absolutely _have_ to work the Sabbath,



Here are several Questions and Answers from Fisher's Catechism:

Q. 3. What should we rest from on the Sabbath?
A. Even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days; or, which is the same thing, from all servile work, Neh. 13:15-23.

Q. 4. What is it that makes a work servile?
A. If it is done for our worldly gain, profit, and livelihood; or if, by prudent management, it might have been done the week before; or, if it be of such a kind as may be delayed till after the Sabbath, Ex. 34:21 — “Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest: in shearing* time, and in harvest thou shalt rest.”
Exodus 34:21 (ESV) (for clarity)
"Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest. In *plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.​
Q. 5. Why does God enjoin rest on the Sabbath so peremptorily and particularly, in the time of ploughing and harvest?
A. Because in these seasons men are most keenly set upon their labour; and may be in the greatest hazard of grudging the time of the Sabbath for rest.

Q. 6. If the weather is unseasonable through the week, do not reaping and ingathering, in that case become works of necessity on the Sabbath?
A. By no means; because any unseasonableness of the weather that may happen, being common and general, proceeds only from the course of God’s ordinary providence, which we ought not to distrust, in regard of his promise, that, “While the earth remaineth, seed-time and harvest —shall not cease,” Gen. 8:22.

Q. 7. If a field of corn is in hazard of being carried away by the unexpected inundation of a river, is it lawful to endeavour the preservation of them upon the Sabbath?
A. Yes; because the dispensation is extraordinary; the case not common nor general; and the damage likewise in an ordinary way, irrecoverable.

Q. 8. Are Christians, under the New Testament, obliged to as strict an abstinence from worldly labour, as the Jews were under the Old?
A. Yes, surely; for moral duties being of unchangeable obligation, Christians must be bound to as strict a performance of them now, as the Jews were then, Psalm 19:9.

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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

Ed Walsh said:


> Here are several Questions and Answers from Fisher's Catechism:
> 
> Q. 3. What should we rest from on the Sabbath?
> A. Even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days; or, which is the same thing, from all servile work, Neh. 13:15-23.
> ...



Theologically, I understand this position. But I think it is rather unrealistic in regards to our modern , secular system of capitalist productivity and employment. Such a definition, if strictly held to in a Western, rural context (such as mine in which employment is scarce to begin with) you may in effect be putting people out of any kind of labor at all, and thus effectively homeless.

I suppose that you may believe that there is simply no employment situation at all that exists that would force a person to have to work on the Lord's Day, that couldn't be immediately remedied by finding new work. I'm asking, assume that such a situation _does_ exist (which it does for many people, especially low-skilled individuals who can find little to no work to begin with), and how, in light of such a situation, a person is able to honor the Sabbath? I will certainly concede that there are many today who simply _prefer_ to work on the Sabbath, but excluding such people, what happens when you _must _or else you have no employment at all?


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## Parakaleo (Jan 28, 2018)

First Table commandments outweigh Second Table. Period. I would rather starve than keep myself fed by laboring on the Sabbath, though I am quite certain God would not allow this to happen. Could anyone believe that a man who labors tirelessly six days a week at whatever his hand finds to do, but refrains for just one day in seven, would _starve_?

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## Ed Walsh (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> I will certainly concede that there are many today who simply _prefer_ to work on the Sabbath, but excluding such people, what happens when you _must _or else you have no employment at all?



Man is not a slave of the Sabbath, for, the Sabbath was made for man. (Mark 2:27) If such a case existed, I think work would be a necessity and the person could do the best they could on another day to keep a sabbath of sorts. But, the person in that situation should do all he can to find a different situation. ASAP

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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

Parakaleo said:


> First Table commandments outweigh Second Table. Period. I would rather starve than keep myself fed by laboring on the Sabbath, though I am quite certain God would not allow this to happen. Could anyone believe that a man who labors tirelessly six days a week at whatever his hand finds to do, but refrains for just one day in seven, would _starve_?



If he doesn't show up for work at the factory or restaurant, then most certainly. His employer will not care how faithful he is 6 days a week, he will note that he doesn't show up when scheduled, or when he is needed, and thus fire him, and most likely give him a terrible reference so that what little work he could qualify for as a low-skilled worker, he will be unable to find. Even more so if he is a police officer, fireman, prison guard, doctor, surgeon, or mental health worker (the latter of which I find myself) in which someone must be attentive at all times, rain, sleet, snow, Christmas, or Thanksgiving. I'm sure the latter examples could be lumped in with Acts of Ministry or service, but the former is the issue I am really struggling with.

While my former suggestion may seem like a hypothetical, living in a very rural area in which the vast majority of employment opportunities are for low-skilled workers, and _all_ require _someone_ to be working on Sundays, I would be more than happy to provide examples of men and women who _must_ work on the Lord's Day, or their families don't eat, or they can't pay medical bills, or their home is foreclosed, or they lose their only means of transportation. Even more so, I know of those who have attempted to remain faithful to the Sabbath, and have been fired, blackballed, and subsequently left in poverty for extended periods of time until they were fortunate enough to find other work - which required Sunday labor. It just seems very easy to say we would rather starve than labor on the Sabbath when we are in professional ministry or are highly skilled and live in an environment that is sympathetic to our ideals and have never had to suffer through what others must in order to provide for their families, lest they be considered "worse than an unbeliever."


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## Adam Olive (Jan 28, 2018)

How do people respond to the situation where in the early church where something like 30%-40% of the population in the Roman empire were slaves and thus had to work seven days a week? Presumably the church reflected a similar percentage who were slaves.

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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

Adam Olive said:


> How do people respond to the situation where in the early church such a big percentage of the population in the Roman empire were slaves and thus had to work 7 days a week? Presumably the church reflected a similar percentage who ere slaves.



Excellent question! Were slaves unfaithful (potentially under church discipline) because they were forced to work for their unbelieving masters?


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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

Ed Walsh said:


> Man is not a slave of the Sabbath, for, the Sabbath was made for man. (Mark 2:27) If such a case existed, I think work would be a necessity and the person could do the best they could on another day to keep a sabbath of sorts. But, the person in that situation should do all he can to find a different situation. ASAP



That's a fair and helpful response. Thanks!


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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> Theologically, I understand this position. But I think it is rather unrealistic in regards to our modern , secular system of capitalist productivity and employment. Such a definition, if strictly held to in a Western, rural context (such as mine in which employment is scarce to begin with) you may in effect be putting people out of any kind of labor at all, and thus effectively homeless.
> 
> I suppose that you may believe that there is simply no employment situation at all that exists that would force a person to have to work on the Lord's Day, that couldn't be immediately remedied by finding new work. I'm asking, assume that such a situation _does_ exist (which it does for many people, especially low-skilled individuals who can find little to no work to begin with), and how, in light of such a situation, a person is able to honor the Sabbath? I will certainly concede that there are many today who simply _prefer_ to work on the Sabbath, but excluding such people, what happens when you _must _or else you have no employment at all?



As others have said, first table concerns outweigh second table concerns. If one is truly unable to work due to their commitment to honor God's law rather than idleness, then they should be provided for by the diaconate. Ultimately, if it's their geographical setting that is limiting their options, they should move. There are low-skilled jobs in most places where one does not have to work on the Sabbath. I'm aware of a number of cases where low-skilled individuals have made their scruples known to potential employers and have still been hired. As for things like "police officer, fireman, prison guard, doctor, surgeon, or mental health worker", those are all works of necessity. Arrangements should be made such that the burden is shared and one doesn't work on _every _Lord's Day, but labor is lawful in those cases.

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## Ed Walsh (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> Were slaves unfaithful (potentially under church discipline) because they were forced to work for their unbelieving masters?



No, they were not. Neither did the early Christians keep a First-day sabbath. I have read that the Jews continued to maintain a Seventh-day Sabbath while meeting on Sunday nights for their Christian gatherings. Remember Eutychus? (Acts 20:9) But, also remember that the Jews separated from the gentiles in the beginning until the Acts 15 council and the ministry of the Apostle Paul. The Christian Sabbath was not fully developed until afterward. But that does not mean it is not binding on later Christians. Jesus told them that he had many things yet to teach them through the Holy Spirit. (John 16:12-14) There was and is growth and progress over time.


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## OPC'n (Jan 28, 2018)

This has always been a hard one for me. I'm a Sabbatarian, and believe the Sabbaths need to be kept. I do feel for those who have jobs which are not of jobs of necessity. Luckily, I'm an RN so I have a job of necessity. I don't think it's right to ask someone else to work Sundays for you because God also commands that we don't permit others to work on the Sabbath. It's especially difficult if you don't have a trade (i.e. you work at Walmart or you're a waitress etc). I would encourage those people to try and go to college to get a trade where they either don't work on weekends or it's a trade of necessity. There are trades where you only have to go to school for a couple of months (i.e. CNA etc). I think with planning and hard work people can manage to keep the Sabbath in time when it comes to their job.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 28, 2018)

Working on the Lord's Day and not attending upon the worship of the Lord is the grossest violation of the fourth commandment from the plain words of it, as adultery is of the seventh. Coming to convictions about not working on the Lord's Day should be akin to one realizing they are in an unlawful marriage or some such. Both no doubt entail difficulties in attempting to come into conformity to God's law. So we should understand how bad it is that the Sabbath is so widely rejected that some are in difficulty finding work where violating this command is not required some way. There are circumstances like slavery where the abused are more excused in this matter, but since in this country we have the freedom to look for another job, we must do so some way, though it may be hard and take time, and not simply dismiss doing so because of the difficulty, because the violation is so great, and since we are free to find work, we carry the greater responsibility for the violation. We can't 'find another day' because the church has no authority to change the day and certainly no individual can simply choose another day and make it anything other than a physical day of rest off from work. It is not the day the Lord appointed to appear in worship with his people.

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## Pergamum (Jan 28, 2018)

We need good people as cops, nurses, doctors, and military men. I've done nursing and the army. We always had to work every other weekend. There was really no compromise. Plus, if I asked off or to switch then somebody else would have to forego their own Sunday for me. My conscience was never bothered. 

I would hate to think of rigid Christians steering clear of the helping professions due to Sabbath convictions. People are sick 24/7; we should be willing to help them 24/7. If not, your religion is worthless. Jesus could have waited until a Monday to heal all those people, after all....was He too impatient? No, He wanted to show that helping others was appropriate for the Sabbath.

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## TylerRay (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> If he doesn't show up for work at the factory or restaurant, then most certainly. His employer will not care how faithful he is 6 days a week, he will note that he doesn't show up when scheduled, or when he is needed, and thus fire him, and most likely give him a terrible reference so that what little work he could qualify for as a low-skilled worker, he will be unable to find. Even more so if he is a police officer, fireman, prison guard, doctor, surgeon, or mental health worker (the latter of which I find myself) in which someone must be attentive at all times, rain, sleet, snow, Christmas, or Thanksgiving. I'm sure the latter examples could be lumped in with Acts of Ministry or service, but the former is the issue I am really struggling with.
> 
> While my former suggestion may seem like a hypothetical, living in a very rural area in which the vast majority of employment opportunities are for low-skilled workers, and _all_ require _someone_ to be working on Sundays, I would be more than happy to provide examples of men and women who _must_ work on the Lord's Day, or their families don't eat, or they can't pay medical bills, or their home is foreclosed, or they lose their only means of transportation. Even more so, I know of those who have attempted to remain faithful to the Sabbath, and have been fired, blackballed, and subsequently left in poverty for extended periods of time until they were fortunate enough to find other work - which required Sunday labor. It just seems very easy to say we would rather starve than labor on the Sabbath when we are in professional ministry or are highly skilled and live in an environment that is sympathetic to our ideals and have never had to suffer through what others must in order to provide for their families, lest they be considered "worse than an unbeliever."


I've worked entry-level, unskilled labor, factory jobs for years. I've never been required to work on the Sabbath. One time I had to make up for it by working on a Federal holiday. I really don't think your proposed situation is realistic. Even if every company is open, that doesn't mean that every employee is on the clock. Seek to be faithful. Leave the rest to the Lord.

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## Myson (Jan 28, 2018)

TylerRay said:


> I've worked entry-level, unskilled labor, factory jobs for years. I've never been required to work on the Sabbath. One time I had to make up for it by working on a Federal holiday. I really don't think your proposed situation is realistic. Even if every company is open, that doesn't mean that every employee is on the clock. Seek to be faithful. Leave the rest to the Lord.



While your situation is a valuable one, it is just that; YOUR situation, and not representative of other areas. The world is a big place and the difficulties I shared were not hypothetical or made up worries, but very real and very harsh. Even if every employee is not on the clock, there will be a possibility that those who are convicted of working on the Sabbath need to be, and depending on where you live, a very unsympathetic employer.


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## TylerRay (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> While your situation is a valuable one, it is just that; YOUR situation, and not representative of other areas. The world is a big place and the difficulties I shared were not hypothetical or made up worries, but very real and very harsh. Even if every employee is not on the clock, there will be a possibility that those who are convicted of working on the Sabbath need to be, and depending on where you live, a very unsympathetic employer.


I don't think so, brother. There are jobs in town that wouldn't require it.


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## TylerRay (Jan 28, 2018)

There's a member of my congregation who became convinced that he had to work on the Sabbath to pay his bills. For the last couple of years, he has worked every Sabbath, all the while excusing himself from worship. He is currently under discipline for this sin. He now works two jobs, is practically homeless, and just lost his kids, who are now in foster care. Don't walk by sight. Seek to be faithful. Leave the rest to the Lord.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 28, 2018)

Amen!


TylerRay said:


> Seek to be faithful. Leave the rest to the Lord.



I do wish more elders would weigh in here; surely many have had to bring advice to this issue if it is that epidemic in churches?

I'll repeat what I said earlier; we need to understand the gravity of this. Working on the Lord's Day is the grossest violation of that command, the synedoche standing for the breadth of all violations of it, just as adultery is in the seventh. If we come to realize we are in the grossest violation of one of God's commands, I'm far more worried about those who would soft peddle that concern to me -- 'oh, let's not get too legalistic here,' than I am with possibly being too severe. Being forced to work by a godless society, family needs, local circumstances, are mitigating factors and considerations when it comes to seeking resolution, but it does not remove God's standard. As the preacher said today, we don't define God's requirements by the level of our performance. In other words,, We don't define the fourth commandment's requirements of us by our inability to keep it any more than any of the other 9. Dr. Bownd said it better,

"Lastly, though no man can perfectly keep this commandment, either in thought, word or deed, no more than he can any other; yet this is that perfection that we must aim at; and wherein, if we fail, we must repent us, and crave pardon for Christ’s sake. For as the whole law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ (Gal. 3:24); so is every particular commandment, and namely this of the Sabbath. *And therefore we are not to measure the length and breadth of it by the over-scant rule of our own inability, but by the perfect reed of the Temple* (Ezek. 40:3); that is, by the absolute righteousness of God himself, which only can give us the full measure of it." [Nicholas Bownd, Sabbathum Veteris Et Novi Testamenti: or, The True Doctrine of the Sabbath (1606; Naphtali Press and Reformation Heritage Books, 2015), 8-9.​

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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2018)

TULIPsolas said:


> It's not as easy as just saying let the diaconate provide or they should move or they should find another job. Many factors in the equation here. Life is very complicated these days. What if the person working is also caring for elderly family members in the area? Just pick them up and move across town or state or country? What about insurance and other benefits and seniority for a company? As long as we are being hypothetical here, perhaps this is something new the opening or laboring on the Sabbath. Would a diaconate take all that into consideration when it may need to supplement the family income for a longer time?
> 
> I am for keeping the commandments. However, do we err on the side of legalism when we advise things that aren't so easy to do like getting another job and moving?
> 
> ...



We act as if these things are new. They are not. Through most of history the majority of mankind lived at a subsistence level and, humanly speaking, it seemed impossible to take a whole day off per week from work and support one's family. Look at how quickly and repeatedly Israel neglected the Sabbath throughout Scripture. For instance, when Nehemiah returned to Israel in Ch 13 the Sabbath was almost entirely neglected and the people weren't even providing for the Levites. This wasn't purely a case of greed--the people of Israel were exceedingly poor at this time and no doubt many struggled to provide for themselves. They lacked faith in God's providential care.

We now live in a time when most people in our land can provide well beyond basic necessities for their families in a work week of 40 hours. This only heightens our guilt for neglecting the Sabbath. That's not to say I'm not sympathetic--I know the many times I've failed to live up to the requirements of the 4th commandment when a much lesser cost, speaking in worldly terms, would have been exacted of me for faithfulness. But God's law stands. 

With respect to advising one to move, people relocate frequently (with their families) for much less weighty reasons than the observance of God's law.

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## Herald (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson said:


> While your situation is a valuable one, it is just that; YOUR situation, and not representative of other areas. The world is a big place and the difficulties I shared were not hypothetical or made up worries, but very real and very harsh. Even if every employee is not on the clock, there will be a possibility that those who are convicted of working on the Sabbath need to be, and depending on where you live, a very unsympathetic employer.



Are you _actively _seeking employment that will preclude you from having to work on the Lord's day? I think this is key to understanding the depth of your sabbath conviction. Obviously, you have bills to pay and food to put on the table for you and your family. It will not be wise to just up and quit your job without being able to meet your financial obligations. That said, if you are putting no effort into finding another job that will allow you to honor the Lord's day, then your sabbath conviction has to be questioned. Commit yourself to prayer and action; begin a dedicated long-term search for suitable employment. Let your elders/deacons know what you are doing. Have an open mind to the type of work you are willing to take. Is there anything you can do to make yourself marketable in a different field? Take stock of your situation and develop a strategy. It may take a long time to find a job, but then again you may find one next week; the key is that you need to commit yourself to a job search no matter how long it takes. I am speaking from experience.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 28, 2018)

I would say let's not get into it. If you want to discuss in generalities if discipline is appropriate, when, how, history in the church on this, start a new thread.


TULIPsolas said:


> Perhaps this is not something you can discuss on an open forum, however I'll ask did the church leaders and members try to help him find suitable employment with the same salary without having the Sunday work day requirement? I've never heard of someone being disciplined for that and we've been in PCA, OPC and EPC.


--- Post updated ---


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## OPC'n (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson, are you trying to figure out how to find a job where you have the Sabbath off, or is this just a theoretical discussion? If you're trying to find a job where you have off on the Sabbath, I would be willing to do some online searches for you sometime. There's some good jobs out there even ones where you can work from home.​

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## Inactiver user19912 (Jan 28, 2018)

I recently resigned from the pastorate because one of my elders was convinced that I was a Pharisee (and he rebuked me as one during a session meeting) merely for confessing that which the Divines summed up from Scripture. He was able to point to the good faith view of the PCA and harangue me for being out of step with my own denomination. (There's obviously more to this story but that's all I'll say publicly about this.) 

This scenario, I've found, is not uncommon, and while it might not rise to the level that I dealt with, there is an abandonment of the Scriptures and the Standards' teaching in favor of "But what about?" thinking. We want to say "But what about" in a way that maybe reveals a desire to make our situation the one where it's OK to violate Scripture's clear teaching. I'm not accusing you of this but perhaps we'd all do well to examine why and how we answer as we do.

I would advise praying and reading seriously the Scriptures that undergird our Standards. Talk with your elders, and consider what God might do through your decision making process and how He might strengthen you through making a hard choice. What we see in the opening stages of examination is often not what we see when we look back on what God has done over the long haul.

Blessings,
George


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 28, 2018)

Your comment sparked my thought process, but it was not directed at you or I would have quoted you with attribution. I will say this since you responded. What is legalistic? to be concerned to not violate the commandment? No way. Could someone come on in a clumsy manner or with too severe a demand as to rectifying the situation at once; maybe; but I don't see that being done here. But regardless, that is not legalism. 


TULIPsolas said:


> I'm assuming these comments are directed at me. I am not an elder, I am an elder's wife. I do not believe women are supposed to be elders according to what Scripture says.
> 
> And you misquoted me. I did not write "oh, let's not get too legalistic here," I posed a question about do we "err on the side of legalism." You turned my question into a command and I did not write that.
> 
> ...


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## Pergamum (Jan 28, 2018)

A large movement of reformed folks actively persuading their church members not to seek any employment that requires work on the Sabbath means dissuading thousands from the helping professions. There must be qualifications.

We want more Christians in those professions, not less.

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## jwithnell (Jan 28, 2018)

To my knowledge, the only time I've been employed on the Lord's Day as a Christian is when I was dispatched as a wildland firefighter. Nor do I ask others to work unless I'm providentially traveling on Sunday, which we avoid. My views on the Sabbath are strong.

That said, our situation is more analogous to Rome than to the Puritan era (as much as I love 'em). At least in the New England colonies, sabbath work would have largely been an economic ploy to get ahead (I can build more widgets than my competitor), and would have been denounced both under church and civil authority. Your ability NOT to work would have been protected as well. 

Right now, a great number can seek other jobs, move (I had to make a heart-breaking move over this issue), or make other provisions to not work the Lord's Day. But I don't know how long this will be the case -- it will likely be just one of a long-list of actions (in many workplaces, "homophobics" may not be hired) to disenfranchise Christians. We have the early church as an example for some of this, but there are lines we cannot cross.

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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> A large movement of reformed folks actively persuading their church members not to seek any employment that requires work on the Sabbath means dissuading thousands from the helping professions. There must be qualifications.
> 
> We want more Christians in those professions, not less.



Do you see that here? I see the necessary qualifications for works of necessity being made. My wife and I both work in healthcare and in the past we've both worked legitimately on the Sabbath--though our positions now, thankfully, do not require it. What seems to be in consideration here is merely the "necessity" of making money rather than particular employments which are daily necessary to a functioning and just society.


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## Pergamum (Jan 28, 2018)

TheOldCourse said:


> Do you see that here? I see the necessary qualifications for works of necessity being made. My wife and I both work in healthcare and in the past we've both worked legitimately on the Sabbath--though our positions now, thankfully, do not require it. What seems to be in consideration here is merely the "necessity" of making money rather than particular employments which are daily necessary to a functioning and just society.


Yes, I have heard reformed pastors advising young people to avoid professions which require them to work on Sundays. There were no qualifications given.

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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, I have heard reformed pastors advising young people to avoid professions which require them to work on Sundays. There were no qualifications given.



Ah ok, I thought you were speaking of within this thread. I have heard the same and I agree. While I recognize that employers in fields of necessity often put greater demands on laborers than is actually necessary and would be required in a Christian society, that doesn't mean we should leave medicine, law enforcement, emergency response, etc. to the pagans.


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## Pergamum (Jan 28, 2018)

TheOldCourse said:


> Ah ok, I thought you were speaking of within this thread. I have heard the same and I agree. While I recognize that employers in fields of necessity often put greater demands on laborers than is actually necessary and would be required in a Christian society, that doesn't mean we should leave medicine, law enforcement, emergency response, etc. to the pagans.


Exactly. You said it even better than I did.


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## Parakaleo (Jan 28, 2018)

I'm going to repeat myself and simply say it's far better to die than to sin against God. Whether or not various kinds of work are sinful on the Sabbath is a secondary question that can be discussed objectively _only after_ someone comes to see the truth of the statement above.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 28, 2018)

Myson:

I've looked over your OP several times and am still not clear as to your precise objective. But let me attempt to answer in a way that I pray will be helpful. 

Christians who do work that is a work of necessity on the Lord's Day should do it as to the Lord (as we are to do on the other six days), for the good of those whom they serve and the glory of God. Such should, of course, work as little as they have to on the Lord's Day.

You say that you are a mental health worker, which is a work of necessity. Pastorally, you should know that such a work on the Lord's Day is an expression of both love to God and love to neighbor. When you are required to do it, you should do it with your whole being to the welfare of those you serve and the glory of your Savior. 

And your desire to join the people of God in worship and to keep the Sabbath, even when you cannot because you must perform this work of necessity (as is true of someone providentially hindered from worship who wishes he could be there), marks you as faithful in this duty and God does not disregard such. The Lord will bless you as you honor Him on this day even when necessity demands that you absent yourself from the public divine worship of God's people.

Peace,
Alan

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## bookslover (Jan 28, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> We can't 'find another day' because the church has no authority to change the day and certainly no individual can simply choose another day and make it anything other than a physical day of rest off from work. It is not the day the Lord appointed to appear in worship with his people.



Even under the Law (Numbers 9.6-12), those individuals who had accidentally touched a dead body or who happened to be on a long journey and were, therefore, unable to celebrate the Passover at the stated time were graciously accommodated by God to celebrate the Passover at a different time. By analogy, surely it would be possible for those who absolutely and legitimately must work on the Lord's Day to still honor God by setting aside a different day of the week (or part of a day) in order to spend time worshipping the Lord.

Let's not be less flexible than our Lord in such matters.

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## Myson (Jan 29, 2018)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Myson:
> 
> I've looked over your OP several times and am still not clear as to your precise objective. But let me attempt to answer in a way that I pray will be helpful.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your very helpful and heartfelt response. I guess if I had to clarify my objective, it is partly out of desire to learn more about my own situation (I'm a full time student who also works around 60 hours a week. This position is something I enjoy, but requires me to work every other Lord's Day to be with Schizophrenic clients who are under court order due to a crime they've committed to be under supervision) while also looking into the more pastoral response to those who are less fortunate than myself and must work on the Sabbath. I don't come from a Sabbatarian tradition but am in one now so it got me thinking. Everything I've read about the Sabbath assumes that people already don't work and are doing things like mowing the lawn, watching football, and doing laundry and that, generally, society assumes Sunday is the day off. However, the West is much more secular than that, and I see no reason in my own context to assume that is the case. Most people I know aren't resting because this is the only job they can get and have to work a double on the weekends! So, I just wanted to know, apart from my own experience, what do the Scriptures have to say to those people?

My negative reaction to some more hard-line responses is partly out of defensiveness (which is probably wrong), but also out of a difficulty in seeing how easy it is for ministers who don't punch a time card to tell others that it is better that their family starve than to work a fulfilling job on the weekend, particularly when Christ told us that the Sabbath was given for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's easy to tell people that they can find other work when you've never had to work like they do. At any rate, I hope this offers some clarification and again, thanks for your response.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 29, 2018)

I attempted to parse out 'W of N' in my earlier post and how the W of N and A of M are abused in this age; TheOldCourse provided us with some viable occupations-to which I agree. However, my concern is that many times, one calls a work on the L's D a W of N when technically it isn't. For example, is it a work of necessity if you work at Walmart? It seems as if some believe that one can work in these instances as long as they see their working is _necessary_ to provide shelter, food etc. for their families and they have no other option available, i.e. 'this work is a necessity to my family's well being!' I see this as a redefining of the term. As well, if it is an actual W of N if you do work within the confines of that which Chris provided, is it still a W of N if you work it perpetually, i.e, the job requires u work the Sabbath-your shift is Sunday through Friday.

in my opinion, even in the case of medical care, in the initial stages of a job search, it should be at the forefront of your mindset to inform the employer that you are a Sabbath keeper and you are willing to work on the Sabbath to _assist _the need, but that you should not be considered part of the infra-structure per se. Most employees do not do this in fear of being not considered for the job or a level of discrimination in the future. Employers do not like employees who have timetable scruples. It makes staffing more difficult.

Another abuse, in my opinion, is when we stretch the principle to the minutia; for example, you work for the phone company or electric company? Thats necessary! Are they within the scope of a W of N. Chris and I both have a common friend who came to worship like 6 times per year. He worked for an IT security company; he felt like it was a necessity protecting their customers financial information. I don't disregard that what he does is important, but does it fall under an occupation that is to be considered an W of N?

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## TylerRay (Jan 29, 2018)

TULIPsolas said:


> Perhaps this is not something you can discuss on an open forum, however I'll ask did the church leaders and members try to help him find suitable employment with the same salary without having the Sunday work day requirement? I've never heard of someone being disciplined for that and we've been in PCA, OPC and EPC.





NaphtaliPress said:


> I would say let's not get into it. If you want to discuss in generalities if discipline is appropriate, when, how, history in the church on this, start a new thread.


I'm going to defer to Chris on this. I'll only mention that every reasonable effort was made in the part of the elders, and that he made it clear that he had no intention to keep the Sabbath. He actually changed his theology, claiming that the Sabbath had been abrogated, and that he was under no obligation.


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## Edward (Jan 29, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I would say let's not get into it. If you want to discuss in generalities if discipline is appropriate, when, how, history in the church on this, start a new thread.



Chris, I would direct you to the original question, "_What is the pastoral response to_...", Not "what should _I_ do" 

While most (not all) of the responses have tended to answering that second question, discipline would appear to fall well within the scope of what was actually originally asked.


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## ZackF (Jan 29, 2018)

TylerRay said:


> I'm going to defer to Chris on this. I'll only mention that every reasonable effort was made in the part of the elders, and that he made it clear that he had no intention to keep the Sabbath. He actually changed his theology, claiming that the Sabbath had been abrogated, and that he was under no obligation.



If he had changed his theology why did he stick around?


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## TylerRay (Jan 29, 2018)

ZackF said:


> If he had changed his theology why did he stick around?


I'm not sure. He and the session still stay in contact. It's a truly sad situation. He was a dear member of our congregation when he was in attendance. Now he's like a stranger.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 29, 2018)

This is not an accurate analogy. Maybe this is a ground to argue that for the occasional unforeseen circumstance that is no fault of our own that we could not plan to avoid beforehand (see the many expositions of "Remember" affixed to the commandment), the church should have week day services as many do. But these are not unforeseen circumstances under discussion, and we cannot change another day into the Lord's Day and observe it as though it were fulfilling the fourth commandment. The church cannot do this, so certainly one individual has no authority to do this. This gets into the question of whether the church has the authority to move the Lord's Day for any reason the church sees sufficient. The Sabbatarian answer (and this thread was directed to such) is absolutely not. That is the perspective from which I said what I said. 



bookslover said:


> Even under the Law (Numbers 9.6-12), those individuals who had accidentally touched a dead body or who happened to be on a long journey and were, therefore, unable to celebrate the Passover at the stated time were graciously accommodated by God to celebrate the Passover at a different time. By analogy, surely it would be possible for those who absolutely and legitimately must work on the Lord's Day to still honor God by setting aside a different day of the week (or part of a day) in order to spend time worshipping the Lord.
> 
> Let's not be less flexible than our Lord in such matters.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 29, 2018)

My main concern was not to get into a specific judicial case. But, in the interest of trying to contain an already long thread from a question that deserves its own treatment given the many things as I noted which it could bring up, a new thread for this is warranted whether Myson envisioned this being a part of the discussion or not. 


Edward said:


> Chris, I would direct you to the original question, "_What is the pastoral response to_...", Not "what should _I_ do"
> 
> While most (not all) of the responses have tended to answering that second question, discipline would appear to fall well within the scope of what was actually originally asked.


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## PaulCLawton (Jan 29, 2018)

Myson said:


> What would you say to someone (such as myself), who is theologically persuaded that it is necessary to keep the Sabbath, but literally live in an environment where Sundays are necessary to be worked on, in just about every field to be employed in? What happens when you absolutely _have_ to work the Sabbath, or every other Sabbath, and simply cannot find a whole 24 hours on the Lord's Day (or even Saturday for that matter) to not work? How do you counsel people in those instances? Let's assume that you can't quit your job, and there are no deals that can be worked out with your employer.



Many responses have already been provided that surpass the following in both wisdom and persuasion, but this is a rare occasion that I might have something to add.

Taking the original question at face value, and imagining a member of our congregation coming to me as an elder asking the very same I would respond in the following way:

First, by challenging the premise, "and there are no deals that can be worked out with your employer." I do not mean to say that an employer would refuse to "make a deal" in order to give an employee Sundays off, on the contrary I know from experience this to be common. But brother, is God not able to "do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think"? Who can know what might transpire once a stand for principle has been made? I went through a similar experience a few years ago when after coming to a conviction about Sabbath keeping I went to my employer and requested a demotion, so by virtue of scheduling I thought I could avoid being scheduled on Sundays. In short I said I was willing to work until 11:59 on Saturday night and come in at 12:01 Monday morning, but I would not work on Sunday. Long story short, my superior accepted my proposal for a demotion (which would have made me less able to provide for my family) only for circumstances to conspire immediately following to make it unnecessary; I kept the position I had and have moved up from there in the years following. _Things happened that I could not have predicted, _is this not often the way providence unfolds?

Secondly, by turning to the much-loved Lord's Day 10 (Q&A 27-28) about the providence of God. Though it may sound simplistic, and often there are times where I have to remind myself of these same truths, I am convinced that much - if not all - anxiety about our circumstances are a result of a failure to understand (or perhaps imbibe) the doctrine of the providence of God. I will copy and paste them below, and may God guide you in your difficult circumstance.

27. Q. 
What do you understand by the providence of God?
A. 
God's providence is
his almighty and ever present power,
whereby, as with his hand, he still upholds
heaven and earth and all creatures,
and so governs them that
leaf and blade,
rain and drought,
fruitful and barren years,
food and drink,
health and sickness,
riches and poverty,
indeed, all things,
come to us not by chance
but by his fatherly hand.

28. Q. 
What does it benefit us to know
that God has created all things
and still upholds them by his providence?
A. 
We can be patient in adversity,
thankful in prosperity,
and with a view to the future
we can have a firm confidence
in our faithful God and Father
that no creature shall separate us
from his love;
for all creatures are so completely in his hand
that without his will
they cannot so much as move.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 29, 2018)

The "necessity" in "work of necessity" lies in the objective occupation itself, not in my subjective need for income that prompts me to do what is not, outwardly and objectively, a work of necessity. 

However, the question of what constitutes a work of necessity is, frankly, not the same in a society like ours (a highly industrial and technical one), as opposed to a primitive agricultural one, as one finds in the OT. This must be accounted for, and I do not mean that it is thereby impossible, but I do mean that it must be done in a thoughtful and charitable way. 

I think, first of all, those occupied in vocations that require them to work on the Lord's Day and that are not obviously requiring necessary work, need carefully to look into and think about the question of necessity. Secondly, conferring with their local session or consistory would be quite appropriate, and the local governors should carefully and thoughtfully address the matter, consulting others and having recourse to higher (or broader, if you please) judicatories in helping them to advise their members with respect to such. 

Even as it is not best for members to be the sole determiners in their own cases, if they are doubtful cases, it is not the remit of every other member to make the determination for their fellows as to what is and is not acceptable in this regard. Even ministers and elders acting singly here is not the ideal but acting in concert to help their member. Any given office-bearer may quickly conclude that something is not necessary work that a deliberative body of church governors may determine otherwise. 

Ever since the gospel has gone to the nations, observing the Fourth Commandment has been a particular challenge that it wasn't in Israel in the same way. Let us recognize the challenge that observing the Fourth Commandment can be for many of our people, especially in a highly secularized culture, and act in a positive way to encourage them to desire to observe it and to do all that they can to observe it. 

Peace,
Alan

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## Inactiver user19912 (Jan 29, 2018)

Myson said:


> Thank you for your very helpful and heartfelt response. I guess if I had to clarify my objective, it is partly out of desire to learn more about my own situation (I'm a full time student who also works around 60 hours a week. This position is something I enjoy, but requires me to work every other Lord's Day to be with Schizophrenic clients who are under court order due to a crime they've committed to be under supervision) while also looking into the more pastoral response to those who are less fortunate than myself and must work on the Sabbath. I don't come from a Sabbatarian tradition but am in one now so it got me thinking. Everything I've read about the Sabbath assumes that people already don't work and are doing things like mowing the lawn, watching football, and doing laundry and that, generally, society assumes Sunday is the day off. However, the West is much more secular than that, and I see no reason in my own context to assume that is the case. Most people I know aren't resting because this is the only job they can get and have to work a double on the weekends! So, I just wanted to know, apart from my own experience, what do the Scriptures have to say to those people?
> 
> My negative reaction to some more hard-line responses is partly out of defensiveness (which is probably wrong), but also out of a difficulty in seeing how easy it is for ministers who don't punch a time card to tell others that it is better that their family starve than to work a fulfilling job on the weekend, particularly when Christ told us that the Sabbath was given for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's easy to tell people that they can find other work when you've never had to work like they do. At any rate, I hope this offers some clarification and again, thanks for your response.




I must confess that if I'd known of your full situation I'd have been more inclined to speak specifically to it. There may be some of my fellow confessional brothers and sisters who would disagree but I'd commend you for enjoying the labor of helping your clients, even on the Lord's days you might have to work. So I'd encourage you to be of good cheer, to a degree, that your labor is a work of necessity. I'd also insert that this is where a church could minister to you (and others) by having an evening service. You'd be able to worship with God's people that way.

However, I must take issue with your closing paragraphs and the assumptions contained therein. You admit your defensiveness, which is always a good thing, but allow me to speak to the end of the first sentence. Please don't assume that the ministers who have firm Sabbatarian convictions haven't: A) punched a time card, even while ministering to souls, or B) suffered through not laboring on the Lord's Day during difficult circumstances. 

Many of us know the pain of our convictions from personal experience and not some sort of theological laboratory experiment. We do not minister in a vacuum; please don't assume that our views are formed in an ivory tower. 

Blessings,
George

PS- MrsM. (TULIPsolas), the scenario you described is nearly identical to what wound up happening to me. I'm so sorry your husband had that inflicted on him. And I also think it's wise to remember that, just as many of our Sabbatarian views didn't happen overnight, one's situation cannot change that way. We'd probably all do well to pray that our practical application of our theological convictions would be lined up in helpful ways to our brothers and sisters.

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## Parakaleo (Jan 29, 2018)

TULIPsolas said:


> So what about Matthew 12:1-8?



The question of whether someone could really starve because they resolved not to work on the Lord's Day is one with some pretty fascinating considerations.

Is it realistic that a man who works tirelessly six days a week, at whatever his hand finds to do, could actually starve? There may be a famine situation going on where many people are starving to death, but in normal circumstances does it seam realistic that a man could _literally starve to death _if he was willing to work and do _any kind of labor _available to him (even tending a garden or hunting rabbits) to keep his body and soul together? I find that pretty doubtful.

Psalm 37:25 suggests that God will sustain the righteous man and his family, so they will not have to beg for bread. I have also heard an interesting proposition put forward in a sermon: that if the Lord causes a righteous person to starve to death, God has still not forsaken that person since he has taken him out of his misery through death.

What about Matthew 12:1-8? Wouldn't the lawfulness of pulling a distressed animal from a pit suggest it is lawful to do what is necessary to avoid starvation on the Sabbath? Well, yes. It is lawful to do what is necessary to prevent death on the Sabbath. I wouldn't let my children burn to death in a house fire on the Lord's Day if I had strength enough to carry them out of it. However, is starvation really like that? Could someone come to a point where they _must _eat on the Lord's Day or else face certain death, and their _only _recourse for obtaining food is to do some amount of labor for it on that day? Does anyone else see how far-fetched that is?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 29, 2018)

It is certainly interesting that here with the fourth commandment, we seem to want to make all sorts of allowances for what is the grossest violation (refraining from our weekday laboring), as I think I've said more than once now; what are we going to do with the full breadth of it? understanding the commandment goes to our every thought that day? We cannot keep any of the commandments and break them daily because they are exceedingly broad in their application, but here we are not getting passed the minimum of the plan words of the commandment, which the Pharisees would have been content as fulfilling it.

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## lynnie (Jan 29, 2018)

As has been mentioned, you might enjoy a Sunday night service if you are off from work by 6:00 or 7:00. I've known people who had to work during the day but were able to make an evening service. This doesn't address the main subject of your post, but it might be nice for you. I've known parents where one stayed home with sick kids in the morning and then went out in the evening. I don't know if you mind missing church as much as having to work, but if you do, you could look into local evening options. 

Also, if you get a lunch break, it is nice to listen to a sermon. I had to miss three Sundays in a row due to weather, being sick, and being on narcotics for an abscessed tooth. I got earbuds out and listened to a sermon and audio bible and some worship songs. I won't pretend it is the same as going to church, but its a nice way to spend an hour on Sunday. There are also online classes from Reformed seminaries available and you would probably love listening to some of them. Like I said, this does not address your post about the job, but might make it nice for you.

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## Parakaleo (Jan 29, 2018)

USNCerGuard said:


> Please don't assume that the ministers who have firm Sabbatarian convictions haven't: A) punched a time card, even while ministering to souls, or B) suffered through not laboring on the Lord's Day during difficult circumstances.



Thanks for saying this, George. I think another important point is a minister's economic background is not pertinent to the way this question is answered. No minister has the authority to legislate or make concessions when it comes to God's law. The power of the church is _declarative _only. A minister who's answer to this question would be changed based on their life-experience is a minister to watch out for.

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## lynnie (Jan 29, 2018)

I know this is a confessional board, but if you read Gaffin's book "Calvin and the Sabbath", you realize that there are godly, scholarly men who genuinely hold to the "realized in Christ Hebrews 4" position with a clear conscience. And while Gaffin ends up with the mods here (and the Confessions) he at least treats such people with respect as fellow Christians within the realm of orthodoxy.

It is possible that such persons do not belong at the PB if they are not confessional about the Sabbath. But in the same way that godly scholarly men end up as Arminians or Dispensationalists, I think the OP is treated too harshly here by some. Even a reference to church discipline- which implies treating a person as a heathen and unbeliever- is horrible. You would imply an entire group of people are not saved, not going to heaven? Lumping them in with those who worship false gods is over the line in my opinion. The "continental" position on the Sabbath may be thoughtfully picked apart the way Gaffin did to arrive at a certain conclusion (which even I thought had more to do with creation than the Mosaic law), but ending up a strict Sabbath holder does not make other people guilty to the degree implied here. It may mean the OP is not Confessional in his views, but it does not make him guilty of sin if his own conscience does not condemn him.


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## TylerRay (Jan 29, 2018)

lynnie said:


> Even a reference to church discipline- which implies treating a person as a heathen and unbeliever- is horrible. You would imply an entire group of people are not saved, not going to heaven? Lumping them in with those who worship false gods is over the line in my opinion.


Lynnie,
He is not being treated as an unbeliever. He is being disciplined as a son. As far as I know, he has not been excommunicated. The purpose of the discipline is to bring him to repentance.



lynnie said:


> It may mean the OP is not Confessional in his views, but it does not make him guilty of sin if his own conscience does not condemn him.



WSC: "Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God." Our consciences don't determine what sin is. We are not our own standard, or a law unto ourselves. Instead, we are accountable to the law of God.

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## bookslover (Jan 29, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> This is not an accurate analogy. Maybe this is a ground to argue that for the occasional unforeseen circumstance that is no fault of our own that we could not plan to avoid beforehand (see the many expositions of "Remember" affixed to the commandment), the church should have week day services as many do. But these are not unforeseen circumstances under discussion, and we cannot change another day into the Lord's Day and observe it as though it were fulfilling the fourth commandment. The church cannot do this, so certainly one individual has no authority to do this. This gets into the question of whether the church has the authority to move the Lord's Day for any reason the church sees sufficient. The Sabbatarian answer (and this thread was directed to such) is absolutely not. That is the perspective from which I said what I said.



Fair enough, Chris.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 29, 2018)

*Moderator Note:*

Lynnie,

While godly men have believed this or that is not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Moreover, one's conscience is not what determines the guilt of sin. It is the revealed will of God in Scripture that defines sin,_ the want of conformity unto, or transgression of, any law of God, given as a rule to the reasonable creature (_1 John 3:4; Gal. 3:10, 12) [WLC Q24].

We are often deceived by what our consciences may provoke within, for we are fallen creatures, our walks of faith differing in maturity and discipline. Unfortunately, we are sometimes wrong, but never in doubt.

Hence the need for ongoing instruction, exhortation, and care by those ordained servants entrusted with our spiritual growth, starving our doubts and feeding our faith by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping good stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given us—including how and where our time is being spent—and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and being subject to discipline.

To infer that "_godly men_" would be refused membership at our site is an infelicitous statement at best, a cavil inferring rigidity at worst. I will assume you really did not intend the latter. Your post, cast as you have so done, appeals to our often furtive emotions, wrongly implies some have consigned another to perdition, and begs for exceptional consideration concerning the Sabbath where none are due. The mere mention of _church discipline_ should not immediately move one to assume warrant exists, for that very warrant comes from within the local church session.

If we are like minded believers at this site, and we should be, _discipline_ is a very appropriate consideration on grave matters. No one here should be reticent to suggest that considerations of the consequences of one's actions is immune from church discipline (Jude 1:22-23).

So let's reset this discussion...

If we Christians do not keep the Sabbath day, then there is no need of the church. Observation of the Sabbath is as obligatory as _thou shalt not kill_. Moreso, given the priority of the first table over the second. God's moral reflection as delineated in the commandments is not subject to relaxation or change. We are commanded to _remember the sabbath day_ and _keep it holy_. To remember the Sabbath before it comes—_preparation_—remember it when it comes—_participation_— remember it when past—_meditation_—on the _Monday_ and successive days.

That is the starting point for any further discussion.

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## lynnie (Jan 29, 2018)

Mr R-

I was under the assumption from years ago that participation here assumes agreement with basic Reformed theology and Confessional standards. As Pyack-Ruben once said long ago about something, the PB is not out to reinvent the wheel. There are godly studious Christians who sincerely believe in the Dispensational pre trib rapture, or that we can lose our salvation, or that God does miracles just like the NT today, or that the Sabbath was abrogated/fulfilled by the work of Jesus as described in Hebrews 4.

Maybe I should not have said they don't belong here, but I will say from experience that if they say anything against the standards here they will get an infraction. I've gotten at least a couple myself so I try to be careful (the continuationist position If I recall correctly...and I got a few nasty cracks when I posted Vern Poythress of all people about extraordinary providences). It is your board, your rules, and that's OK. But do godly people who hold to a continental position fit here? You tell me. I was under the impression they do not.

Tyler, I have always heard church discipline referred to as reserved for scandalous sins that lead to excommunication if not repented of. I appreciate you clarifying, but I would use words like correct or exhort if it is a matter of the church's doctrinal position, as opposed to clear unmistakable immorality or slander or crime and so forth.

I don't understand you guys throwing around the word discipline. I have been in two PCA churches myself in my life and I loved the pastors and the people. But I never saw so many exceptions to Confessional Sabbath keeping in my life among elders. There is less where I go now (Baptist Calvinist) than in the PCA. What, are you going to tell me the entire PCA needs to be put under discipline for all the presbyteries that don't agree with Confessional standards? I seriously- I am not exaggerating- did not know a single PCA elder who didn't take an exception on the Sabbath. I am no great Sabbath keeper here according to some of you (I have watched a DVD Sunday night and folded wash when it got to the point of the ox falling into a well with the wash baskets) but even I could not figure out why men even wanted to be PCA elders if they had these exceptions to the sabbath and claimed to be confessional.

Myson the OP is in the PCA. I think you could appeal to him to change his view, or go to the OPC or whatever, but I don't think anybody has the right to use the word discipline in this situation. Not for PCA people.

Anyway, going back to the subject itself, when I read Gaffin's book and he carefully lays out the continental view, and quotes all sorts of Reformed guys, it was pretty impressive and I could not for the life of me figure out how he could debate it. But then he carefully laid out why he thinks the Sabbath is still binding upon us and by the time he was done I thought he won the debate.

But having said that, discipline is for sin and error, it is not for views that are within the realm of orthodoxy. The Continental view is like Arminians who you might want to engage in extended debate with, but it isn't like Joyce Meyer lovers bringing word of faith teachings that are literally a different gospel. Continental views are not a different gospel or a sin, they are just one more thing that Machen's warrior children fight about. I think you have every right at PB to insist on holding to the Confessional Puritan view, but there is nobody who holds to the Continental view who thinks "thou shalt not kill" was abrogated. You can't equate the two in light of our Reformed church history. You can argue and debate and set the rules of the board here, but I think Myson has been too harshly treated by some.

Hey Myson.....the Gaffin book might help you think it all through without condemnation and rebuke. "Calvin and the Sabbath".

My son took a manager job at CVS with the presupposition that he went to church every Sunday. After a month people quit, sometimes he was the only guy to do pharmacy, and before long he worked almost every Sunday for a year, plus a lot of evenings. He had a wife and rent and school loans and bills to pay. We just kept telling him that the Lord could get him another job even in this rotten economy, and it took a year but now he has a Mon-Fri and they are happy to go to church on Sunday and midweek. I will pray the Lord works so you can go to church on Sunday. But don't forget that the other half of that command is to work six days, and it is a godly honorable thing to work hard as you are doing. Look up John Murray on how it is wrong to go to a five day work week instead of six and makes society go downhill if you really want to enjoy Reformed debate, ha. Probably most people here would flunk on that one. But never mind that subject, I don't want to get another infraction, if I am not already there......


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## Pergamum (Jan 29, 2018)

The reason many people hate the Sabbath is because of the manner in which some people argue for the Sabbath. They do not make it sound like a delight but a prison and they add strict measures that are not found in Scriptures.

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## Ed Walsh (Jan 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> They do not make it sound like a delight but a prison and they add strict measures that are not found in Scriptures.



Who does that? I love "the Lord his Day," as they used to call it in New England.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 29, 2018)

In my opinion, the sabbath issue will always come down to personal conscience. Conscience is based on wisdom. Wisdom comes from the Lord. All of us know what is a breech on the sabbath (as God has given us that wisdom). I do not burden myself on the Lord's day-I see it as a pleasure and a grace. The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. I try and keep my thoughts on the Lord, his mercy and grace, read and study his word, rest from the tiring week. If my daughter is playing a game on her phone, I do not 'crack' her for it, but point her to a more profitable time spent. If someone in my household is doing something typical that can be done the other 6 days of the week, I remind them that God has given freedom from such mundane tasks on His day and I do so, graciously and tenderly; with patience.

None of us keep the day as we should. Wandering thoughts would be sinful...not redeeming the time and such. None of us love the Lord with all our hearts, mind, soul and strength. Maybe we should focus more on that than items we should avoid. The day is a day of peace and quiet in the Lord. It is not a burden and shouldn't be. 

Lastly, I have not always been in this place. MY church takes the continental view (as Lynnie has mentioned about the PCA). I don't point my fingers at anyone. We are works in progress and the HS is faithful. Lets leave it to Him.

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## Pergamum (Jan 29, 2018)

Ed Walsh said:


> Who does that? I love "the Lord his Day," as they used to call it in New England.


I know plenty of folks who make the Sabbath a dreary exercise in strictness. They turn the Sabbath into a distasteful duty instead of a privilege.

I think a better approach is called for; we must call out the privileges of the day, a full day of rest and comfort in the Lord. God has loved us so much that He guards His time with us and puts guards around it so that we can enjoy him.

I remember as a kid my dad FORBIDDING me from doing homework once he got home from work. This was so that we could go walking or play together. Homework was a dreary task, but I felt I had to do it. Some schools are terrrible about homework. My dad freed me from that thought and preserved a definite cut of time for himself (and my grades never really suffered because I learned not to waste my school time but used it well for school work so that I could have home time). 

The Sabbath is like this act of love from my Dad. He loves us and so preserves the best cut of time for Himself.

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## TylerRay (Jan 29, 2018)

lynnie said:


> It may mean the OP is not Confessional in his views, but it does not make him guilty of sin if his own conscience does not condemn him.





lynnie said:


> Tyler, I have always heard church discipline referred to as reserved for scandalous sins that lead to excommunication if not repented of. I appreciate you clarifying, but I would use words like correct or exhort if it is a matter of the church's doctrinal position, as opposed to clear unmistakable immorality or slander or crime and so forth.
> 
> I don't understand you guys throwing around the word discipline. I have been in two PCA churches myself in my life and I loved the pastors and the people. But I never saw so many exceptions to Confessional Sabbath keeping in my life among elders. There is less where I go now (Baptist Calvinist) than in the PCA. What, are you going to tell me the entire PCA needs to be put under discipline for all the presbyteries that don't agree with Confessional standards? I seriously- I am not exaggerating- did not know a single PCA elder who didn't take an exception on the Sabbath. I am no great Sabbath keeper here according to some of you (I have watched a DVD Sunday night and folded wash when it got to the point of the ox falling into a well with the wash baskets) but even I could not figure out why men even wanted to be PCA elders if they had these exceptions to the sabbath and claimed to be confessional.
> 
> ...


Lynnie,

In my denomination, the boundaries of "the realm of orthodoxy"are set by the Westminster Confession. All officers have to subscribe to it in its entirety, without taking exceptions. So, if someone is violating any part of the law of God (as spelled out in the Westminster Standards) in a stiff-necked, unrepentant way, as the gentleman I described is, he will come under discipline. First, he will be rebuked (which has a broader context of counseling and pleading). If he continues in his sin, he will be barred from the Lord's Supper. Finally, if he refuses to repent, he will eventually be excommunicated. This is true for idolators, adulterers, sabbath-breakers, murderers, and anyone else who is boldly unrepentant in his habitual continuance in sin.

Think of it this way: if we had a man who join the congregation, explaining to the elders that he is a medical doctor, and it later came out that he is an abortionist, he would be disciplined. He would object that he is able to do his job in good conscience, convinced that he is only helping women with their medical issues. However, his convictions are dead wrong, and he should be shepherded to repentance.

Similar examples could be given of polygamists or peyote users. They may be able to commit their sins in good conscience, and may be convinced that the Scriptures do not forbid their sins, but they are in serious need of correction.

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## lynnie (Jan 29, 2018)

Well Tyler, while I expect to go to my grave disagreeing with you about what the grounds for being barred from the supper or excommunication should be, I have to admit that in a way it is like a breath of fresh air to hear of a group that calls themselves Confessional and actually are. At least that shows integrity. While Continental folks don't see themselves as breaking the Sabbath at all if they are resting from their works a la Hebrews 4, and I don't class that position with murder and so forth, I at least better understand where you are coming from now and thank you for explaining.


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## TylerRay (Jan 29, 2018)

lynnie said:


> Well Tyler, while I expect to go to my grave disagreeing with you about what the grounds for being barred from the supper or excommunication should be, I have to admit that in a way it is like a breath of fresh air to hear of a group that calls themselves Confessional and actually are. At least that shows integrity. While Continental folks don't see themselves as breaking the Sabbath at all if they are resting from their works a la Hebrews 4, and I don't class that position with murder and so forth, I at least better understand where you are coming from now and thank you for explaining.


Thank you for your cordiality, Lynnie. I hope our position doesn't come across as severe. We really do have a very sweet group, and the session is no exception. It's their attempt to shepherd an erring sheep, not an exercise in trying to purge the church with a heavy hand.

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## Von (Jan 30, 2018)

Myson said:


> cleaning the garage


If (for argument's sake) cleaning the garage is a very relaxing thing to an individual, would there be warrant to do this on the Sabbath?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 30, 2018)

The Lord's Day is not for our relaxation (like for many Saturday is, and for many is all Sunday is), but for taking our rest from our weekday work, chores and recreations in order to devote ourselves to worshipping and focusing our attention upon the Lord.


Von said:


> If (for argument's sake) cleaning the garage is a very relaxing thing to an individual, would there be warrant to do this on the Sabbath?

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## Von (Jan 30, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The Lord's Day is not for our relaxation (like for many Saturday is, and for many is all Sunday is), but for taking our rest from our weekday work, chores and recreations in order to devote ourselves to worshipping and focusing our attention upon the Lord.


If we look at the ten commandments, most commandments are not conscience driven. For example: You shall not steal, You shall not murder, etc are all pretty clear-cut. For a person to say "I killed the guy, but it is not bothering my conscience," is never an excuse. Is this the same with the Sabbath?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 30, 2018)

What does his have to do with the OP? This sounds like you need to start a thread to ask some questions.


Von said:


> If we look at the ten commandments, most commandments are not conscience driven. For example: You shall not steal, You shall not murder, etc are all pretty clear-cut. For a person to say "I killed the guy, but it is not bothering my conscience," is never an excuse. Is this the same with the Sabbath?


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## Von (Jan 30, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> What does his have to do with the OP? This sounds like you need to start a thread to ask some questions.


Point taken. In my mind it started out very relevant, but I think I drifted a bit...

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## Cymro (Jan 30, 2018)

Each situation is different, one more difficult than another. Yet there is nothing too hard for the Lord. My experience was this. I worked in the steel works which had to have continuous shift work otherwise furnaces etc, would collapse. I was a young Christian and had my wife and three children to support. There was no option given, shift work was required, and only the sick and elderly were granted day work. Then my elder brother was converted, and after a while he said, How are you working on the Sunday? That seared my conscience, but how could I manage a reduction of a third in my wages, and the impossibility of getting on to day work which had no Sabbath working?
My wife and I took the matter to the Lord, and we had one of those rare experiences when the word spoke powerfully and personally to us. This verse was given,Prov21:1, “The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it withersoever He will.” This is what we pleaded. Then young I, plucked up courage to approach the Engineer over 800 of us men, who had a dreadful mouth, and I told him bluntly that I had become a Christian and needed the Sabbath Free. He was a bit taken aback but did not comment. A fortnight later I had an official letter telling me to start on day work! 
Prayer, prayer, prayer is the answer to your dilemma. Your ways are not His ways and He will answer in the time of your trouble. His way will be a way that you might never have thought of.

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## JimmyH (Jan 30, 2018)

Von said:


> If (for argument's sake) cleaning the garage is a very relaxing thing to an individual, would there be warrant to do this on the Sabbath?


If your ox fell in the ditch you may in good conscience get him out. Cleaning the garage is something that you could do on another day. 
Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh _is_ the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth _any_ work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
They took Sabbath observance more seriously in those days.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 30, 2018)

If you find garage cleaning so relaxing, let's schedule a Saturday when you can come over and help me clean mine! 

Peace,
Alan

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 30, 2018)

We are taking a break until the moderator in charge of this thread comes online.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 30, 2018)

lynnie said:


> Mr R-
> I was under the assumption from years ago that participation here assumes agreement with basic Reformed theology and Confessional standards. As Pyack-Ruben once said long ago about something, the PB is not out to reinvent the wheel. There are godly studious Christians who sincerely believe in the Dispensational pre trib rapture, or that we can lose our salvation, or that God does miracles just like the NT today, or that the Sabbath was abrogated/fulfilled by the work of Jesus as described in Hebrews 4.
> 
> Maybe I should not have said they don't belong here, but I will say from experience that if they say anything against the standards here they will get an infraction. I've gotten at least a couple myself so I try to be careful (the continuationist position If I recall correctly...and I got a few nasty cracks when I posted Vern Poythress of all people about extraordinary providences). It is your board, your rules, and that's OK. But do godly people who hold to a continental position fit here? You tell me. I was under the impression they do not.


*Moderator Note*:
Lynnie,

It appears you will not let this go without implying a rigidity is afoot that needs to be repented, or to revisit past moderator actions. I want to remind you of the board's _raison d'etre_ in the words of Semper Fidelis:

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/what-this-is-a-reformed-board.24779/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/what-this-is-a-reformed-board.24779/#post-304429

The board is a decidedly confessional board, with specific confessions. As our rules state:

*9.* ...The order that the moderators help facilitate is to be aligned with their statements of faith (comprised in the _Westminster Confession of Faith, The Canons of Dordt, The Belgic Confession, The Heidelberg Catechism_, and _Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689_)​
Accordingly, the moderation staff just will not be long-suffering when anyone seeks to explicitly smuggle in, or by implication of their post's content, something outside these clear boundaries of what we all agreed to when we joined this site. I want to remind you of the company you are keeping and note that the sincerity of others who are outside these boundaries is not in dispute. That said, not a few sincere beliefs are sincerely wrong and appeals to sincerity are not the means by which we determine what is _in_ and what is _out_. For those so inclined to push against our confessional boundaries, there are plenty of internet discussion sites that will welcome their participation and views. The PB is not one of them.

As to your concern about Continentalism and the Sabbath day, their view is no less strict than the English confessional view. The Synod of Dort's doctrinal deliverance (items declared binding on all the churches), in its 164th session on May 17, 1619 stated:

1. There is both a ceremonial and moral element in the fourth commandment of the divine law. 
2. The ceremonial [element] is the rest of the seventh day after creation, and the strict observance of the same day was especially enjoined upon the Jewish people. 
3. The moral [element] is that a certain and definite day be set aside for worship, and for the purpose that as much rest as is necessary for worship and for pious reflection upon it [be provided]. 
4. The Jewish Sabbath having been abolished, Christians must solemnly keep Sunday [in the original Dutch it is "_the day of the Lord_,"] holy. 
5. This day has always been observed from the time of the apostles in the ancient Catholic Church. 
6. This day must be so set aside for worship that on it people may rest from all ordinary labors (excluding those that love and present necessity demand) together with all such recreations that hinder worship.​
- See https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/articles/synod-dordrecht-and-sabbath

Further, Danny Hyde's article on _Dordt's regulae_ in _CPJ 12_ and earlier in the _PRTS journal_ similarly proves the actual Continental view is not the current modern view that has made it a _wax nose_ to suit whatever some would rather be doing on the Lord's Day.

With this in mind and my previous reset of the conversation, the thread is now re-opened.

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## ZackF (Jan 30, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The Lord's Day is not for our relaxation (like for many Saturday is, and for many is all Sunday is), but for taking our rest from our weekday work, chores and recreations in order to devote ourselves to worshipping and focusing our attention upon the Lord.



This is something I haven't thought too much about...but should. You hear the saying 'rest and relaxation' all of the time. Does anyone even make a distinction between the two terms or is the saying just for emphasis? I am going to relax. I am going to rest. Now I wonder if I don't use the term interchangeably.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 30, 2018)

The two words are related in different ways, _rest _including _relaxing_, properly understood.
*
Rest *- Cease work or movement in order to relax, refresh oneself, or recover strength.

*Relax *- Make or become less tense or anxious.

In other words, to _rest_ is to ease work or movement in order to make or become less tense or anxious, refresh oneself, or recover strength.

Sanctify the Sabbath by _holy resting _all the day_..._(WLC #117). Then meditate upon that holy resting on Monday and the days following.

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## Myson (Jan 31, 2018)

lynnie said:


> Hey Myson.....the Gaffin book might help you think it all through without condemnation and rebuke. "Calvin and the Sabbath".



Hey thanks lynnie! As someone who hasn't really had the means to think through these things and has been kinda lost on what the "Continental View" was, I'm glad to learn more and more than willing to be corrected in what I've previously been taught (which is that the Sabbath was abrogated in my non-confessional background, but not something I've come to fully agree with since joining the PCA). Thanks for the help! Just bought it on Amazon!

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## Myson (Jan 31, 2018)

I must say that this thread has gone in many different directions, but I want to thank everyone for sharing and giving their insights. It has been tremendously helpful for me, in conjunction with my local congregation, to think through this issue and what God requires of us. I welcome any and all comments (but prefer those that directly address the question I first asked)!


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## TylerRay (Feb 1, 2018)

Myson said:


> Hey thanks lynnie! As someone who hasn't really had the means to think through these things and has been kinda lost on what the "Continental View" was, I'm glad to learn more and more than willing to be corrected in what I've previously been taught (which is that the Sabbath was abrogated in my non-confessional background, but not something I've come to fully agree with since joining the PCA). Thanks for the help! Just bought it on Amazon!


Mr. Trowbridge,

Note the following from post #75 from Patrick on the classic continental view:


Ask Mr. Religion said:


> As to your concern about Continentalism and the Sabbath day, their view is no less strict than the English confessional view. The Synod of Dort's doctrinal deliverance (items declared binding on all the churches), in its 164th session on May 17, 1619 stated:
> 
> 1. There is both a ceremonial and moral element in the fourth commandment of the divine law.
> 2. The ceremonial [element] is the rest of the seventh day after creation, and the strict observance of the same day was especially enjoined upon the Jewish people.
> ...

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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Feb 2, 2018)

ZackF said:


> This is something I haven't thought too much about...but should. You hear the saying 'rest and relaxation' all of the time. Does anyone even make a distinction between the two terms or is the saying just for emphasis? I am going to relax. I am going to rest. Now I wonder if I don't use the term interchangeably.


It is in this regard that the word often translated as "rest" in, for example, Hebrews 4.1-8 (not verse 9) can be understood with the idea of ceasing, even more than of cessation of physical activity. Remember that the Lord our God needed no "rest" for He had a "residue of the Spirit"--that is, He was not exhausted by His creation-work. It is the idea of ceasing from His creation- labor, and in our own context, ceasing those labors and other recreations, etc. that pertain to the 6-day week in which we are to do "all our work" that are more in mind here.

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