# Historical evidience that Jesus existed



## Croghanite (Dec 15, 2010)

What historical references would you refer someone to that believed Jesus did not ever exist? Can't use the Bible.

I want historical evidence that Jesus existed, that He did do miracles and that he was crucified. Also any historical evidence that proves other parts of the bible would be nice ie. Apostles going around healing, etc.

I would appreciate references that can be obtained online - specific quotes from historians, etc. I will need to present excerpts instead of whole books.

Thanks


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## Phil D. (Dec 15, 2010)

Here's something for starters. [LINK]


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## KMK (Dec 15, 2010)

I have never heard of any historian, believing or unbelieving, who denied Jesus of Nazareth's existence. This sounds a little like answering a fool according to his folly. On what basis would someone argue He did _not_ exist? You may as well argue that Pilat and Herod did not exist.


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## Croghanite (Dec 15, 2010)

He would simply ask for you to prove with evidence besides the Bible that Jesus existed and claimed to be God. He believes in evolution because that is what he was taught to believe in government school. 

He was taught in school that Jesus is a man made myth and indirectly through our culture that He is a myth.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 15, 2010)

Dr. Paul L. Maier, Paul L. Maier Home Page , has written a number of good books on this subject. For example:

Amazon.com: In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks at Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (9780825433290): Paul L. Maier: Books

One of my favorite examples that he gives is the (Jewish) Talmud's recording of the arrest notice for Jesus of Nazareth. It is an example of the "embarrasment" criterion of the historian. That is, if someone with an obvious vested interest against promoting certain facts is nonetheless forced to admit or recognize them (in some sense), this is strong evidence among the remains of the day that certain facts are historically veridical.


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## Skyler (Dec 15, 2010)

Why can't you use the Bible? It's the best attested set of historical documents from the period. There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other historical figure from that era.


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## seajayrice (Dec 15, 2010)

Christmas.


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## Grimmson (Dec 15, 2010)

See Joesphus’ _Antiquities of the Jews_

Regarding Jesus’ death on the cross, regradless of the debate concering the Arabaric citation of the Testimonium Flavianu because it is still seen as parially true concerning real history of Christ's death by crucifixion, see Book 18, chapter 3.

Concerning James, the brother of Jesus, see Book 20, chapter 9.

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Skyler said:


> Why can't you use the Bible?


 
It is probably because of the bias and claims of the Bible. As a historical technique I could see why he would ask for something other then our scripture.

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Here a online link to Book 18, which includes John the Baptist:

The Antiquities of the Jews, BOOK 18 by Flavius Josephus

Here a online link to Book 20:
The Antiquities of the Jews, BOOK 20 by Flavius Josephus


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## KMK (Dec 16, 2010)

Skyler said:


> Why can't you use the Bible? It's the best attested set of historical documents from the period. There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other historical figure from that era.


 
Exactly. I wonder if this person doubts the existence of a man named Alexander the Great as well?


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## Skyler (Dec 16, 2010)

Grimmson said:


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> Skyler said:
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Think about what you just said. He's asking for historical evidence of supernatural events. Yet because the Bible claims supernatural events, he rejects it.

Is it just me? Does nobody else see anything wrong with this?

As far as bias goes, of _course_ it's biased. Show me one historian that isn't.


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## Grimmson (Dec 16, 2010)

Skyler said:


> Grimmson said:
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Joe was not claiming to reject the supernatural events of the Bible. He was just asking for secular sources that communicated the same evidence of what we find in the Bible. There is some value of this approach from an apologetic perspective when considering a historical argument outside of a religious framework and by do so reinforcing the probability and reliability of what we find in the Bible. Therefore making it that much harder for people to reject the historical claims of scripture. Yes, it shifts the basis of truth from the Bible to secular sources; however it does not provide a clear picture to the root of the problem of Man, being sin which only scripture can do. Once man has been regenerated by God, such a person will accept the truth of scripture. This approach that Joe is asking for is a form of secular accommodation of what God has revealed in history outside of his Word. God communicates his truth not just with the Bible alone because of common grace and we should accept the truthfulness of that fact. Ken and Jonathan, I think you two are over-reacting here. 

We all have our bias, and we accept and recognize the bias that we have. The world does not always recognize such clearly so let us provide some grace and evidence. We shouldnt be critizing public schools, because it is not their place to teach any religious faith. It is our job to show where their education is lacking and to do so with kindness and respect. And in regard to a school teaching that Jesus was a myth is more of a problem with the teacher then the school, because the majority historical view in the modern day believes in the existance of Jesus and his death on the cross. The place where historians disagree is in regards to the empty tomb, miracles of Christ, and the actual claims of Christ.


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## EverReforming (Dec 16, 2010)

You might check out Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" as well as CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. They should give you some useful information for your friend. Also, as was mentioned Josephus would be a good example. He was a 1st century historian and a law-observant Jew, who referred to Jesus as a teacher and miracle worker.


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## Phil D. (Dec 16, 2010)

Several people have mentioned Josephus here. At the end of his translation of Josephus' works, William Whiston has an appendix in which he marshals a number of historical sources that testify to Jesus' existence and reputation. It is available here on Google Books.

Another non-internet source that does a good job in this area of apologetics is Josh McDowell's _New Evidence that Demands a Verdict_.


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## Croghanite (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks! keep 'em coming!


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## Wannabee (Dec 16, 2010)

What year is it?

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A curiosity that might cause someone to at least ponder - How come nobody else's name is used in vain so prolifically? People don't use Alexander, Hitler, Gandhi or anyone else's name in vain. Is this because they think He's fictional and won't be bothered by it? I would propose that it's open rebellion against Him, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. The actions of men confirm the verity of Scripture.


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## Zenas (Dec 16, 2010)

The existence of Christians, while not conclusive, is persuasive evidence that Christ exists (or existed, for your friend). 

The existence of Christians leaves two possibilities: (1) Christ was a person whom people followed, religiously. (2) Christ never existed and was hastily conjured from nothing and written about in documents that date to a few decades after his supposed existence. It's much more plausible that (1) is true rather than (2).


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## puritanpilgrim (Dec 16, 2010)

> Christmas.



Now that's how you debate.


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## cih1355 (Dec 16, 2010)

Here is a quote from Tacitus concerning Jesus. Go to this link if you want to see on the Web: Tacitus - ANNALS

"Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed. " _Annals_ Book 15 Section 44


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