# What are the qualifications for ordination within a Presbyterian body?



## harvelljr (May 16, 2009)

Over 6 years ago I was lead by the Lord into the doctrines of grace. Since then I have studied and studied and studied these matters. For the first 4 years I was headed towards full Calvinism and holding to the Westminster Confession of Faith. [I mean I was seriously and adamantly affirming everything in the Westminster Confession]. About a year or so ago I got sideswiped by the Baptist doctrines of believer's baptism. Up to this point I was seeing baptism as a sign that had replaced the sign of circumcision. Just as the Lord's supper took the place of the Passover meal. 

In all my other doctrines I was and still continue to be a follower of Calvin. I believe Calvin's viewpoint concerning the Lord's supper and rejected Luther's view of consubstantiation and Zwingli's view of mere symbolism and have held to Calvin's view of Christ actual presence in the Lord's supper, in his diety.

I have here recently really been struggling and questioning whether or not my switch to believer's baptism onlyism was scriptural or truly covenantal. I was adhering to covenant theology, but was actually rejecting covenant theology by holding to my Baptistic principles. I now believe that the Baptist principles are not Reformed, but are dispensational. Since I have rejected dispensationalism altogether, I cannot now adhere to it in my doctrines of Baptism.

What I am saying is that a year ago when I switched from the Westminster Confession to the London Baptist Confession and when I switched from the baptism of infants to believer only Baptism I now feel that I made a grave error. I thought that because I was holding to scriptures that stated that one must believe and then be baptized that this in itself rejected infant baptism, but this is not necessarily true. If and adult believes, then certainly he must be baptized.

I have since found that infant baptism goes back to within 80 years of the life of the Apostle John and I do not believe that the church downgraded into error that quickly. So I have returned to the full confession of the Westminster Confession of Faith. [One must remember that up till 7 months ago I was in a Pentecostal church and that when I first heard of the Reformed concept over 5 years ago I had never even heard one sermon on Baptism [believer or infant], I had never heard one sermon on the substitutionary atonement of Christ, etc, etc, etc,.......Most Pentecostals focus on the Spirit and gifts, word of faith movement, prosperity gospel, etc.... When I left the Pentecostal movement in October 2008 I had been in it since 1992 and had never heard a sermon on any of the aboved mentioned items. So one could very well understand my struggle in my learning process as I dealt with all this theology of which I had never even heard of until over 5 years ago.

My question now is which Presbyterian denomination do I need to attend and what are the qualifications of helping teach if the Lord ever allows me to? On the question concerning which Presbyterian church or denomination to attend I would need some feed back concerning this seeing that I absolutely do not agree with a woman in the Pulpit.

I am open to some help from any Presbyterians and I am here in two weeks going to attend a Presbyterian Church. I can't this coming week, seeing that I am taking an out of town trip. Any advice would be greatly appreciated and one can also email me if they want.


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## Prufrock (May 16, 2009)

Here is a list of the PCA churches in Alabama; it would be a lot quicker for you to skim the list and see which towns are close to you than for me to find them on a map! Other than that, it looks like the nearest NAPARC church is an OPC in Birmingham.


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## Jon 316 (May 16, 2009)

In Scotland? Believe in woman ministers, disregard the WCF, and promote liberal tehology... oh and go to the Island of Iona for spiritual retreats that reflect new age pantheism much more than they do Christianity


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## Edward (May 16, 2009)

Several different questions there.

I'll start with churches - I only found a couple of churches in your area, neither particularly close. There are PCA churches in Pell City (not sure if it even has a pastor at this time) and Sylacauga. Both seem small and not interested in growing in size. (No web site, for example). 

Since I am not that familiar with your part of Alabama, perhaps you can spot something I missed here:

The Churches of Evangel Presbytery

As far as who can teach and what can be taught, that would be up to the session. They shouldn't allow teaching contrary to the confession. As far as what they would want to look for in the way of track record, that's largely up to them. Larger churches are going to have a more formalized process, and perhaps a teacher's covenant.


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## Oecolampadius (May 16, 2009)

harvelljr said:


> My question now is which Presbyterian denomination do I need to attend and what are the qualifications of helping teach if the Lord ever allows me to?



I think that a person who has not had any experience in a reformed and Presbyterian environment should first desire that he himself be taught first before he is to desire being in a position of teaching others.

I used to be a fundamentalist baptist who was already on his way to finishing bible college to become a pastor. In fact, I was already sort of a youth pastor at my former home church. However, I left all that because my former denomination's practices were in conflict with my belief in the doctrines of grace. When I transferred to the OPC, it was such a surprise for me several months later when my pastor urged me to take some courses with the Ministerial Training Institute of the OPC (MTIOPC), which required me to come under care by the Presbytery. And, it was later on that I realized that being a man under care in the OPC means that one is seriously pursuing the ministry of the Word. At first I was worried because I believe that a would be minister should not only know what being Reformed means in theory (doctrine) but also in practice. It was such a relief later on when the pastors of our presbytery took on the role of mentoring me, teaching me how reformed theology connects with reformed practice. Currently, I am pursuing an M. Div. with PRTS and I do this primarily because I want to be taught.

So, my advice to you is that you must first seek to be mentored by a reformed minister and know the process that one must go through in order to become a minister in that denomination which you would like to join.


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## harvelljr (May 16, 2009)

I appreciate the feed back. I do agree with sitting under a Mentor Pastor and being taught. I am a licensed and ordained minister, but I am first and foremost a student of the word of God and subject to the authority of those over me.

I have been taking a class through the local Baptist association. This was college level but only a certificate is earned. I have recently enrolled in Ligonier/Academy Intermediate certificate program and I am having to read through twelve books on my first subject. I have also taken some college courses through a distant college, but have no degrees at all, so this is why I was asking.

I have been searching and have found that the Presbyterian USA has been on the decline because many have denied the Inerrancy of scripture and have also allowed women in the pulpit.

Oh by the way I have been sitting under a mentor since I have come to the Reformed faith over 5 years ago. I download and listen daily to R. C. Sproul's lectures. I have over 600 lectures on Cd's and now I go to the public library every Saturday in order to watch his video lectures. [I have no highspeed because I live in the bushes].

But yes definitely I would have to go to a PCA and not a USA. I looked in the phone book for those nearest me. I also found just plain Presbyterian in there and do not know particularly which denomination they are with.


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## Oecolampadius (May 16, 2009)

If you want to visit an OPC church, I believe the one nearest to you (Talladega, AL) is about an hour's drive away, in Birmingham.
Here are their details if you wish to consider visiting them: Redeemer (Birmingham, AL)
Here is their church's website: Redeemer Presbyterian Church

There is a recommended curriculum for ministerial preparation in the OPC. You can read about it through this link:
Recommended Curriculum

I hope you find that helpful.



> I have also taken some college courses through a distant college, but have no degrees at all, so this is why I was asking.



There are reformed seminaries that would perhaps be willing to let you take part in their programs even though you do not have a Bachelor's degree. There are two that I know that does this: 1) Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary (PRTS) 2) Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS)

Now, I say this because it is highly unusual for a reformed denomination to ordain one that has no degrees at all. In the OPC, they do make an exception to ministerial candidates who do not possess a Bachelor's degree but nevertheless that is an exception. And, it is usually expected of ministerial candidates to have done some seminary work or the equivalent of that. I am not trying to discourage you in your pursuit of the ministry but I would like to encourage you to pursue seminary education first before desiring to become ordained in a reformed denomination. Both of the seminaries I mentioned have distance education and their tuition are pretty low compared to other reformed seminaries. You can complete most of your seminary education online at an affordable rate.


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## Scott1 (May 16, 2009)

Lee, as your profile says, you were formerly a Pentecostal Pastor, so you came from an

Arminian influenced, dispensational communion without a confessed theology to one that is

Doctrines of grace ("five points"), covenantal, with an historic confession.

Then you struggled within "covenant" with regard to infant or believer's only baptism.

First, thank God for what He has done in leading you toward much more truth.

Before you teach in a confessional church (for example any North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council [NAPARC] church), you need to comprehensively understand and receive their doctrinal standards before you teach.

Take the time to familiarize yourself with the denominations in this association. While it does not represent every reformed denomination, all in it are biblical and reformed. Take time to study each one carefully:http://www.naparc.org/Members.html

While there are somewhat different forms of subscription standards, all the NAPARC denominations are going to require you comprehensively understand and receive the doctrine as a faithful summary of Scripture. The PCA, for example, would require you as an officer to state any difference with any statement and/or proposition of the Westminster Standards. 

As you would like to teach, this is a time to carefully study and settle some of these questions. You do not want to be revising your beliefs in the way you describe- you need to seek God and settle this. Study under or with some Pastors, ministers or elders 
and while you do, serve as a layman in the church. There are many ministry groups you can serve while doing so.

You will learn a lot and at some point, it will become clear to you if you can take the vows to be an officer in the denomination. The vows are not to be taken lightly. If you study the nature of office and the nature of vows, it is a high standard. It means more than sincerely agreeing with them in a general way at that moment. It means you have an abiding conviction that they represent the Scriptures faithfully in what they speak to. That ought not change, because the Scriptures don't change.

May God give you grace to discern that and to serve Him now without delay.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 17, 2009)

I would also say that it will not be _entirely _up to you as far as entering the ministry in a Reformed or Presbyterian church. This is not the same thing as "teaching," however a decent church still guards its sheep, and either teaches them by her officers, or oversees that instruction closely. Not many churches will let a "novice" (1Tim.3:6) do any teaching, however you may define that term.

*To be ordained requires a call*. I'm not sure that your former ordination will be recognized by a conservative Presbyterian body; but in any event you would be forced to undergo the very same rigorous examination that any man seeking or taking a call would be subjected to who was coming in _de novo_.

That is, in addition to any internal sense of Spirit-direction to pastoral ministry you may have, you must be summoned by the church--whether by a congregation, or by a Presbytery seeking to send a missionary, etc.


The Reformed world takes very seriously the call to the ministry. A man may first sense an internal desire, 1Tim.3:1. Second, he should give evidence of the gifts for that office, through his service and godliness in the church, and by training--certain indispensable qualities and qualifications for the office of elder are found (for example) in 1 Tim3:2ff.

Third, he should be called by the church to the work. This is some evidence outside of a man that God has actually called him to this service. It is a check on men who would assert themselves into the ministry, simply because they feel like it. Jer.29:9 "For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: *I have not sent them,* saith the LORD."


Just because a man is orthodox in doctrine, just because he thinks he would like to minister in the church, or "start" a church--these things do not make a minister. A godly man will cautiously pursue opportunities for service, willing to take the place of a"doorkeeper in the house" of his God (Ps.84:10) until God himself shows with unmistakable sign his calling.

James warns the headstrong, "My brethren, be not many masters, *knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation*." These words must be held in tension together with Paul's encouragement of men to follow their desire to be an office-bearer. Many a man has rushed into the ministry (perhaps he might have made a good elder), when he ought to have waited, matured, and grown in order that he be a more effective instrument in God's hands. And many of these persons end up littering the side of the road, abandoned for want of this or that, made painfully evident by their dereliction.

Mark, the youthful companion of Paul and Barnabas, came very close to being permanently ineffective by his desertion of the mission, Acts 15:38. See Zech.13:4-6 for a man ashamed of the calling he once made pretensions to having. Timothy, on the other hand, is an example of a man who, having gifts and patient in development, came to follow in Paul's work and carried it on effectively.


> 1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: 4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
> 
> 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
> 
> ...


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## harvelljr (May 18, 2009)

Contra-mundum stated:

"The Reformed world takes very seriously the call to the ministry."


I to take seriously the call to the ministry. I have lamented because of some that I have seen in the pulpits. I have also refused to support others because of a lack of desire on their part to do what the Bible commands a minister.

Again it was stated:

"Just because a man is orthodox in doctrine, just because he thinks he would like to minister in the church, or "start" a church--these things do not make a minister. A godly man will cautiously pursue opportunities for service, willing to take the place of a"doorkeeper in the house" of his God (Ps.84:10) until God himself shows with unmistakable sign his calling."


If you could have followed me through my church life you would see that, even though I ministered the word, I also would stoop to do the least things among the flock. I have went in to the church early, unlocked doors, picked paper up out of the pews, restocked the toilets, etc... When my last church bought some property next door, for more parking and that had a condemned house sitting on it, I would be there by myself tearing this house down in order that the church would not have to put out more money to have it tore down.

I may have never set in a Reformed body, but I do recognize the calling of God on one's life and I do know and see the calling of God on mine. I cannot tell you however, why God allowed me to walk the roads that I have to get to the truths that you may have growed up in church with, but I know God has a plan and a purpose and I know that if God sees fit for me to go to a Prebyterian church and sit under the teaching of the word for the rest of my life and never to teach or preach again myself, then God has a plan and I will submit to that plan, though the world collapse around me. But while it is collapsing, I will still be continuing to further my knowledge in God's word and I will be ready if and when the Lord calls on me.

I will prepare my heart to seek the Lord. I will purpose in my heart to seek the Lord. Is this not what Ezra and Daniel done?


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## Calvinist Cowboy (May 18, 2009)

If you are looking at PCA, here's a link to the Book of Church Order, which governs the ordination of individuals to the ministry. Presbyterian Church in America:  Stated Clerk / Administrative Committee

Scroll down to Chapters 17-21.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 19, 2009)

harvelljr said:


> ...God has a plan and I will submit to that plan, though the world collapse around me. But while it is collapsing, I will still be continuing to further my knowledge in God's word and I will be ready if and when the Lord calls on me.
> 
> I will prepare my heart to seek the Lord. I will purpose in my heart to seek the Lord. Is this not what Ezra and Daniel done?


Sounds like you have a good beginning. Praise the Lord.

The main reason I wrote my post was to inform you up front that becoming a minister in a Ref/Pres body is a process. And it will not happen *at all* without a recognized "call" to a specific work _*the church*_ acknowledges as hers. You wouldn't be simply received-in as a minister, or something.

A man without a call will go through a process of "care", and "licensing". When he is licensed, he is able to candidate for calls, and take a call if one is offered to him. But being licensed by a Presbytery is not the same thing as being admitted to the Presbytery as a member. At that time, you will already have been a member in one of its local congregations (ordinarily a prerequisite for licensing).

There are occasionally variations on the theme, but this is the typical process.


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## harvelljr (May 19, 2009)

I appreciate the feed back on this topic and I am certainly going to start attending a Presbyterian body. 


Thanks.


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