# Young People's Attraction to Emergent 'Reformed' Churches



## Sherwin L. (Oct 23, 2013)

I've noticed that a lot of people in my age range (18-24) and the group above (generally college or young working adults) tend to be drawn to churches that are emergent and more seeker-friendly. Theologically, these churches are more or less reformed and aren't necessarily teaching heresy, but have essentially claimed non-denominational status and are very focused on cultural relevancy. These are the ones that offer free coffee, have well-rehearsed worship bands, and use video technology like crazy. Nothing necessarily wrong with these elements, but my observation is that without them, many young parishioners would be much less likely to attend.

One consequence of this is that because droves of young people are attracted to these types of churches, the multigenerational aspect of the church has been cut out. It's one thing to desire fellowship with people your age, but another to _only_ fellowship with them. I think this is troubling, as it has eliminated a crucial stratum of older spiritual leaders/mentors who are important to discipleship within the church.

I'm curious to know if this describes what fellow PB'ers have observed, and if there are other young adults out there who have chosen to stay away from these churches. If so, how have you balanced the desire to fellowship with fellow young people with the need to be mentored under older faithful believers? I realize that many people here are more elderly, so input from more experienced and wiser selves is also welcome.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 24, 2013)

You've got to look high and low these days to find a church without a "praise band," even among Presbyterians in some places. (A well rehearsed band that plays and sings with unction is harder to find in my experience, For what it's worth. With the prevalence of praise bands, nowadays it's probably almost as easy to find a "dead" "contemporary" service as a "dead" "traditional" one.) 

Emergent generally would be opposed to Calvinism or any other well developed system of doctrine and is basically the old liberalism mixed with postmodernism. So it's basically not going to be compatible with any sort of "Calvinism" or Reformed theology at all. (I forget what the distinction between Emergent and Emerging was supposed to be.) The question here seems to be one of methodology. What we have now is a mixture of Calvinistic theology with seeker sensitive methodology. When I was converted in the late 90's and very shortly thereafter adopted Calvinistic soteriology, it was generally understood that "contemporary" worship was associated with charismaticism and seeker-sensitive evanjellyfishism (e.g. Warren and Hybels.) That the "New Calvinists" have managed to combine the two in large part explains their success, at least from my perspective. (Not surprisingly, many of them are continuationist if not charismatic as well.) By contrast, some of us back in the day preferred to sing the old hymns to the old tunes and tended to equate that with sound theology and practice. That cut against the grain of contemporary evangelicalism just as much as Calvinism did. 

Some would question the legitimacy of youth ministry altogether and would identify it as part of the problem. This is especially the case in churches with youth oriented worship services. (I know of one church that had a youth service that included High School seniors! This service was held at the same time as the main service.) You've put your finger on it with the multigenerational aspect of the church being cut out. There are not too many widows and orphans in churches that cater to There has been a widespread abdication of responsibility on the part of parents who have been too willing to hand over their children to the "experts." Thus, the rise of the Family Integrated movement. 

This kind of thing is also reflective of what a church planting guru called the Homogenous Unit Principle years ago. The idea is that people like to fellowship with others who have similar interests. So now you have biker churches, cowboy churches and similar things.


----------



## JoannaV (Oct 24, 2013)

There are several churches like this in my area. I'm not sure I know enough to evaluate the situation though. It seems there are a mixture of reasons people go to them. A lot of people might be credobaptists with a broadly evangelical background who are looking for a little more depth in theology. Perhaps they will move on to more established churches or perhaps the church will age with them. I haven't really seen _non_-Christians flocking to these churches. If we were able to survey the members of non-denominational reformedesque coffee-band-video churches I don't know what the statistical breakdown would be as to how many came from a Reformed background and how many came from a more mainstream evangelical background and so on.


----------



## SinnerSavedByChrist (Oct 24, 2013)

JoannaV said:


> I haven't really seen _non_-Christians flocking to these churches.


Yep that's my feeling too... Our church has not had one person come because of our seeker sensitivity. I think it can be over-emphasised as an ordinary means of saving people. Prayer, Confrontational evangelism with the true gospel, more prayer and sacrificial love are the biblical mandates for evangelising the lost. 

@Sherwin: Great question!! Here are my two cents. Yes indeed this interesting phenomena of Calvinistic soteriology + seeker sensitivity is very common. My churhc is one actually . If we had more resources, we would look much more like Mars Hill. But right now we're small and the music/multimedia team is humble. 

Regarding our concerns with seeker-sensitivism, we must also concede that they have *some* biblical warrant in their seeker-sensitivism. Consider these:

*"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake..." *(1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

*"Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek."* (Acts 16:3)

I hate "indie" music. I hate weird harmonies which feels Bluesy. I love my traditional tunes. Powerful tunes of old. But my pastor says "Our tunes should reflect what society is singing so that the old tunes and hymns which may seem eccentric to the population we are trying to reach, does not end up being a stumbling block." 

I wholeheartedly disagree with my pastor on this one. Has anyone proved definitively by a community survey that glorious tunes such as "Crown Him with many Crowns?" would be their obstacle for not coming to church? I think not. The real reason people don't walk into churches and also the reason that we shouldn't use the church service as our primary evangelism, is that people hate God. (We don't believe Total Depravity for nothing). In fact, my atheistic housemate said that he _EXPECTS_ churches to sing tunes which are sober and sanctified such as _Nicaea_ in "Holy Holy Holy." 

But one must acknowledge that these young, seeker-sensitive, calvinistic churches are _trying to be faithful_ in applying those particular scriptures. They just want to remove unnecessary stumbling blocks! It would be unwise to criticise them for being weak theologically. Many of these churches preach a *hard* gospel of repentance and faith, of Lordship Salvation, of eternal judgment and the necessity of holiness in every believer.

Although I think seeker-sensitivism is often overdone, the converse can also be true. May I not rile the traditional brethren on PB too much. If the KJV is simply HARD TO UNDERSTAND by even genuine Christian brethren who are by no means weak in the English language, how is using the KJV becoming all things to all people? That is why I don't understand the practice of reading of KJV passages in the open-air. 

I have come to appreciate the exceeding excellencies of the fidelity of the KJV. But we must become all things to all people. Does that mean we use the CEV? Heck no!!! The NLT? Maybe. Maybe for tradesmen or cleaners whom we are leading to Christ in a bible study, it is beneficial to begin in the NLT. Then with greater understanding of the beauty of Christ Jesus, we might move on to the NASB/NKJV/KJV. When we evangelise, our words MUST be comprehensible to our hearers. That is why I don't read the Greek New Testament out in the open-air!!

There's also the classic case of a IFB preacher wearing a suit n tie standing in the middle of a jungle village reading the KJV out loud... This is a straw-man extreme, but you get the point.



Sherwin L. said:


> my observation is that without them, many young parishioners would be much less likely to attend.


In a sense, it is judgment on all those young men that they cannot simply worship with traditional hymns and tunes. *The root of all of our problems is the TOTAL absence of the Scriptural principle of worship today.* I recall an argument with the music directors of our church earlier this year. I was "for" hymns. They were for "indie" type modern worship songs. I had no scriptural ground to stand on. It was after this most bitter discussion that I began to look into the *RPW*. And I saw how foolish I was before!!! If every single young Calvinist were to learn and apply the RPW, there would be a lot less church hopping because of "contemporary worship." 



Sherwin L. said:


> as it has eliminated a crucial stratum of older spiritual leaders/mentors who are important to discipleship within the church... how have you balanced the desire to fellowship with fellow young people with the need to be mentored under older faithful believers?


My church has virtually NO elderly men. We barely even have married couples with children. I can assure you, I would be rebuked way more often and thus sharpened by God, if there were many more Godly elders in my church. That said, our church does not necessarily _seek_ to be a young-person's church. It just _happened to be_ one.


----------



## Jack K (Oct 24, 2013)

"Emergent" is not necessarily the same as "seeker-sensitive," and neither is necessarily in force if you run into a church with a "praise band." But without offering a critique on either of those three trends, I will agree with you that much is lost when a church ends up appealing to only one generation.

It isn't always the church leadership's fault, though. Often, churches try hard to be multi-generational. But people go where they feel most comfortable and that is, regretably, limited to where they're surrounded by those their same age. To overcome this cultural phenomenon can require much deliberate effort on the part of a church. It isn't easy, even when churches want it badly... which some, admittedly, do not.


----------



## GloriousBoaz (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm 29 yrs old and I've just recently left this very type of church, for me we live in an entertainment driven culture so to me less is more and I see this lining up with the scripture. the balance no dead traditionalism but not catering to our culture but rather redeeming it. 



Pilgrim said:


> Some would question the legitimacy of youth ministry altogether and would identify it as part of the problem.


 I would I don't think the family should be divided.


JoannaV said:


> Perhaps they will move on to more established churches or perhaps the church will age with them.


 This is what I did, moved on, since the church I was attending leaned reformed but thought the Aminian vs. Calvinistic debate caused unnecessary strife and division and in their own words "wasn't worth fighting over" I opted to leave instead of digging in and sticking it out to see if they would eventually grow as a congregation, them being a very young church in relation to inception. 


Sherwin L. said:


> One consequence of this is that because droves of young people are attracted to these types of churches, the multigenerational aspect of the church has been cut out. It's one thing to desire fellowship with people your age, but another to only fellowship with them


This is exactly what I've been wrestling with, i've been picking apart their theology because I don't want to get legalistic and say they can't do church a certain way but with the lights and cameras and music and video all those things not being inherently evil, yet something was still amiss and the generational thing pegs it down, i never connected the fact of the media keeping out the elderly (loud music yes) but I hadn't contemplated how Presentation Software and text messaging Q and A (which I really like the concept of though) could detract from an older generation attending that is vital to have amongst us. 


SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> Although I think seeker-sensitivism is often overdone, the converse can also be true.


 I think if you look at how Spurgeon handled church there is a lot of value there. 


SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> If the KJV is simply HARD TO UNDERSTAND by even genuine Christian brethren who are by no means weak in the English language, how is using the KJV becoming all things to all people? That is why I don't understand the practice of reading of KJV passages in the open-air.


 I 'll support you on that one brother, I got your back 

I wanted to add a thought just riffing off of Michael with me I love the theological content of hymns and pretty much depise the content (or lack thereof) of contemporary praise music, but I am not a big fan of hymn tunes, I can't connect with them. With that said I can't connect with praise tunes either. My music choice is rap and metal, so their is a lot of humility on my part to "fit in" (by the way christian rap like, Shai Linne, Jovan Mackenzy who's albums are free online http://jovanmackenzy.com/downloads/, IV Connery, Humble Beast which is free too, Plumpline Collective, is all deep theological stuff to quote Shai Linne: "Praise God the Son second person of the Trinity you're distinct from the Father yet you share in His divinity, fulfilling an eternal covenant you came to the planet earth to save who? All the Father gave you." and a different song off the top of my head:

"Ask Nadab and Abihu, 
Rahab and the Spies knew, 
check psalm 76 Asaph will remind you
A loud singing choir flips in the heavenlies
The proud King Uzziah stricken with leprosy
Those who don't fear get the harshest of punishment
Like Uzzah when he touched the ark of the covenant
Yo, the Lord struck him down?
Because he was a guilty man who assumed his filthy hands
were cleaner than the dusty ground!

Last thought a lot of these seeker sensitive reformed churches are using the pastor as the evangelist instead of the Biblical method of gathering Sunday Lord's day's being the place we gather in to praise God and be equiped to go out into the world and evangelize the lost, not fill the church with tares, yes not be a stumbling block to those who come in, but also not shift our responsibility to give a reason to the hope within us to the pastor or elders. 

Also there are 4 streams of Emergent, the mildest is those like Driscoll who hold basically historical orthodox theology and just make their services more relevant and the other extreme is like Rob Bell and Brian Maclaren who have full out postmodern relativistic worldviews, the new veneer of liberalism in its most "purist" of forms.


----------



## Hemustincrease (Oct 24, 2013)

I have no comprehension of why young people (or any age group for that matter) who have been born again and are as such ‘new creations’ continue to hunger after the things which appealed to them in their lost estate. I distinctly remember (as a new believer) standing alone in a room full of professing Christians, looking on in horror, as they all rocked the night away to the exact same beats and styles of music I had happily sinned away to for the last decade of my life. Apparently the lyrics were Godly. I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t hear what they were singing about. All I knew was that the music, the environment, the atmosphere was exactly that from which the Lord has saved me and I needed to get out quick. I didn’t stick around long with ‘Christians’ whose way of ‘church' reminded me of my old self and my old life, something which I had almost overnight lost all my previous appetite for. 

As believers we hunger and thirst after righteousness and we long for fellowship with God’s true people. Their age is no matter. It is the world which teaches us to believe that we need to be hanging around with people the exact same age as ourselves. The church never teaches such a thing. If we are born again of the Spirit, we will be as happy (if not happier) to worship God in Spirit and truth with 2 or 3 elderly believers as we would with a thousand of our own age. Church (both in corporate worship and individual lives) is to be defined by the culture of Scripture, along with it’s commands, instructions and principles, not by the culture of the lost world around us. 

Young people who decide where to worship God based on what _they find attractive_ are young people, who in my mind, need the fellowship of older and wiser saints badly. The older men are instructed to teach the younger men to be sober minded. The older women are to teach the younger women to be chaste etc etc. These things cannot happen when one part of the body of Christ has segregated themselves (with the encouragement of those who ought to know better) such that they are likely to be forever spiritually immature and at the same time leave bereft of younger believers the obedient local church whose goal is to worship God according to His precepts, not according to the passing tastes of any one group of people.


----------



## SinnerSavedByChrist (Oct 25, 2013)

Hemustincrease said:


> I have no comprehension of why young people (or any age group for that matter) who have been born again and are as such ‘new creations’ continue to hunger after the things which appealed to them in their lost estate


Oh this is a sharp rebuke... I am afraid to examine my daily schedule, to review my last week. For I will be confronted with how much precious time I have wasted "in the things of which you now are ashamed." (Romans 6:21). How often do we dive right back into all these worthless activities and attitudes which have NONE of the aroma of "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done." .... 



Hemustincrease said:


> Young people who decide where to worship God based on what they find attractive are young people, who in my mind, need the fellowship of older and wiser saints badly. The older men are instructed to teach the younger men to be sober minded. The older women are to teach the younger women to be chaste etc etc. These things cannot happen when one part of the body of Christ has segregated themselves (with the encouragement of those who ought to know better) such that they are likely to be forever spiritually immature and at the same time leave bereft of younger believers the obedient local church whose goal is to worship God according to His precepts, not according to the passing tastes of any one group of people.


 could not have said it better. But please be merciful and patient with us young people. This kind of teaching regarding Age-integrated church, elderly men discipling younger men, Titus chapter 2 women stuff... this kind of conviction is *NOWHERE TO BE FOUND* in broad evangelicalism (and not always practiced well in reformed christianity too). Apart from the admonitions of brother Paul Washer, I would have NO IDEA of the manifold blindspots of the modern church.


----------



## SinnerSavedByChrist (Oct 25, 2013)

GloriousBoaz said:


> I 'll support you on that one brother, I got your back


Thanks Peter!!  I still reminisce those street evangelism threads where you valiantly demonstrated the Biblical mandate. 



GloriousBoaz said:


> "Ask Nadab and Abihu,
> Rahab and the Spies knew,
> check psalm 76 Asaph will remind you
> A loud singing choir flips in the heavenlies
> ...


Shai Linne… his rap is better teaching than a lot of Sunday sermons for sure!



GloriousBoaz said:


> Last thought a lot of these seeker sensitive reformed churches are using the pastor as the evangelist instead of the Biblical method of gathering Sunday Lord's day's being the place we gather in to praise God and be equiped to go out into the world and evangelize the lost


I totally agree with your sentiments. But beware!!! Last I checked, the hard-line confessional Presbyterians on this board aren’t too keen for laymen to evangelise in the open air. The words that you hear stifling lay evangelism are “ordination, local church, oversight, officers”… Some would go so far as to say that the responsibility to “Preach the gospel to every tribe tongue and nation” only applied to the Apostles. But the “average believer” is only to do a passive 1 Peter 3:15: “…give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you…”
I just don’t see that in the Scriptures. I do see the urgency to get the message out and to plead with ALL to repent. Oh that God would empower us… we are so ashamed of our Lord…


----------



## GloriousBoaz (Oct 25, 2013)

Hemustincrease said:


> I distinctly remember (as a new believer) standing alone in a room full of professing Christians, looking on in horror, as they all rocked the night away to the exact same beats and styles of music I had happily sinned away to for the last decade of my life. Apparently the lyrics were Godly. I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t hear what they were singing about. All I knew was that the music, the environment, the atmosphere was exactly that from which the Lord has saved me and I needed to get out quick.


 This makes me think of how the apostle Paul said


> And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


 which he is saying that if he lived for Christ and He wasn't real he wasted his life. But contemporary American christians can't say that, even if Christ weren't true (and this is hyperbole bypothetical because I would never argue for the existence of God by first denying Him or talk about Christ as if He weren't real, He very much is, but this is Paul's line of reasoning) even if they died and there was no God this life was pretty good, great concerts and coffee, conferences great friends etc. By the way I learned that lesson from Piper FYI. 


Hemustincrease said:


> It is the world which teaches us to believe that we need to be hanging around with people the exact same age as ourselves. The church never teaches such a thing.


 Integrated worship is the only way to go! (and by worship I mean your whole life). I believe integrated culture is good though too, for instance not having one church full of hipsters, another for the bikers, another for metal head etc, so with that said and though yes i smashed all my secular music with a samarai sword and burnt all my books when I first got saved now I listen to christian rap as I mentioned earlier which is some of the most edifiying music out there, and I still indulge in christian metal occasionally b/c I think Paul Washer hit it spot on when he said: "So you listen to secular music? I don't care. What is in those lyrics? Can you fall down and worship God while those lyrics play? If not get rid of it." Here is a lyric for the song that happens to be playing right now:



> "So hold your head up high and know it's not the end of the road
> Walk down this beaten path before you pack your things and head home
> At the end of the road you'll find what you've been longing for"



Which I think is a lot better than stuff I used to listen to 9 yrs ago like an album called dechristianize here's a lyrics I assure you I have pulled out the more milder parts of this song:


> "Strike the death knell of the pandemonium
> Imbrue one's hands in the blood of Christ
> Washing away all filth of righteousness
> The dimming of the light
> ...



See how impossible and actually vile and sick it would be to try to worship God while the latter lyrics played in the background, but the former lyrics from a Christian metal band doesn't resemble anything so blasphemous. 


Hemustincrease said:


> the obedient local church whose goal is to worship God according to His precepts, not according to the passing tastes of any one group of people.


 Very well said!


Hemustincrease said:


> Young people who decide where to worship God based on what they find attractive are young people, who in my mind, need the fellowship of older and wiser saints badly. The older men are instructed to teach the younger men to be sober minded.


Agree wholeheartly, I just wanted to balance it out a bit by saying that we are to still worship God with our emotions, don't let satan take that away, but we aren't to be into emotionalism either. 

I gave the above example about metal music because though it might not be appropriate for sunday morning I do not see any prohibition in Scripture for it as a style, maybe if you say it is loud and damages your eardrums and that's not being a good steward of your temple or if you sense too much anger, or something, but i'd challenge you to listen to a song like this and read the historical context of it and I dare you not to weep. Oh, Sleeper - Hush Yael - YouTube here's the history Hush Yael by Oh, Sleeper Songfacts By the way if you actually check this out, Kuntar the terrorist was hailed as a hero in his country, you can read more about that at Samir Kuntar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia tragic tale of human depravity.




SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> How often do we dive right back into all these worthless activities and attitudes


 I think the key here is "worthless" for instance forever I decried philosophy as from satan because of Colossians but I never exegeted that text correctly it only decries worldly philosophy not according to Christ. 


SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> this kind of conviction is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in broad evangelicalism


 True 


SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> I totally agree with your sentiments. But beware!!! Last I checked, the hard-line confessional Presbyterians on this board aren’t too keen for laymen to evangelise in the open air. The words that you hear stifling lay evangelism are “ordination, local church, oversight, officers”… Some would go so far as to say that the responsibility to “Preach the gospel to every tribe tongue and nation” only applied to the Apostles. But the “average believer” is only to do a passive 1 Peter 3:15: “…give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you…”
> I just don’t see that in the Scriptures. I do see the urgency to get the message out and to plead with ALL to repent. Oh that God would empower us… we are so ashamed of our Lord…


 I am very aware of that my friend, and I am done fighting over it, you can't change a person's presuppositions, so now I just pray for them, but I won't be silent either any more than Jeremiah could (20:9). 

Sorry I rambled on here i'm going keep it shorter from now on (I don't have time to ramble anymore than you do to read my ramblings lol). Although I did feel it was important to try and make a case that balances the need to be pilgrim's passing through and conformed to the image of Christ and His standards, and how He looks, not like how our culture looks; yet while at the same time also not sliding toward legalism calling things unclean that are not unclean. Hope this is helpful, be strong saints!


----------



## SolaSaint (Oct 25, 2013)

Hemustincrease said:


> I have no comprehension of why young people (or any age group for that matter) who have been born again and are as such ‘new creations’ continue to hunger after the things which appealed to them in their lost estate. I distinctly remember (as a new believer) standing alone in a room full of professing Christians, looking on in horror, as they all rocked the night away to the exact same beats and styles of music I had happily sinned away to for the last decade of my life. Apparently the lyrics were Godly. I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t hear what they were singing about. All I knew was that the music, the environment, the atmosphere was exactly that from which the Lord has saved me and I needed to get out quick. I didn’t stick around long with ‘Christians’ whose way of ‘church' reminded me of my old self and my old life, something which I had almost overnight lost all my previous appetite for.
> 
> As believers we hunger and thirst after righteousness and we long for fellowship with God’s true people. Their age is no matter. It is the world which teaches us to believe that we need to be hanging around with people the exact same age as ourselves. The church never teaches such a thing. If we are born again of the Spirit, we will be as happy (if not happier) to worship God in Spirit and truth with 2 or 3 elderly believers as we would with a thousand of our own age. Church (both in corporate worship and individual lives) is to be defined by the culture of Scripture, along with it’s commands, instructions and principles, not by the culture of the lost world around us.
> 
> Young people who decide where to worship God based on what _they find attractive_ are young people, who in my mind, need the fellowship of older and wiser saints badly. The older men are instructed to teach the younger men to be sober minded. The older women are to teach the younger women to be chaste etc etc. These things cannot happen when one part of the body of Christ has segregated themselves (with the encouragement of those who ought to know better) such that they are likely to be forever spiritually immature and at the same time leave bereft of younger believers the obedient local church whose goal is to worship God according to His precepts, not according to the passing tastes of any one group of people.



Jo-Anne, this is one of the best responses I have ever heard towards this type of worship/church programs. You put into words what I had stuck in my brain. Very nicely said. I have always said that people expect a church to be a church and not a church that looks like a social club or bar. I actually belonged to a church who decorated their basement to look like a very dark bar scene and the youth even pretended to drink by chugging root beer until they puked. Most everyone thought it was so cool to have a bar in the basement. By the way I never heard the gospel preached to any of these kids. 

I was saved in my twenties and I never expected a church to look like the world, I expected a church, why the change?


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 25, 2013)

Sherwin L. said:


> I'm curious to know if this describes what fellow PB'ers have observed, and if there are other young adults out there who have chosen to stay away from these churches. If so, how have you balanced the desire to fellowship with fellow young people with the need to be mentored under older faithful believers? I realize that many people here are more elderly, so input from more experienced and wiser selves is also welcome.



I'm one of those young folks (23) who has chosen to stay away from the "contemporary churches," or whatever you want to call them. I have many friends in these churches, and even my parents are involved in one.

One of the main reasons why I keep my distance is that these churches are not at all Reformed in ecclesiology. Rather than seeking out God's design in Scripture for the worship and government of the Church, they act pragmatically, doing what they think will be helpful.


----------



## kvanlaan (Oct 25, 2013)

Is this not the product of 'youth ministry' on the whole? Create disinterest in grownup church by having youth pastor lead sheep down path of cool and 'alternative' worship and hermeneutics, feed sheep on steady diet of 'relevant' music and causes, and soon enough one goes from a gospel message to social justice. Also love this one:

Robbed Hell C.A.S.T Pearls Presents - YouTube

It is not just entertaining; I love the part where he says "why not just talk like an idiot and wrestle over contours of meaning"? That is where the emergents have taken seemingly 'deep' road and sound like philosophical gurus while we knuckle draggers are content to quote God's word in its most sensible form, instead of adding to it this 'historical context' that redefines what it means but sounds very clever.


----------



## SolaSaint (Oct 26, 2013)

Unbelievable, that guy in the video is a pastor? Maybe his mentor was John Shelby Spong.


----------



## kvanlaan (Oct 26, 2013)

It was actually a parody on Rob Bell and his ilk, but this is quite often what is fed to the youth who go 'seeking' for something newer, more spiritual, etc. Try listening to Doug Pagitt for more than five minutes and you will find much of the same nonsense. But for some reason it is very appealing to the youth.

Just ran across this about Doug: As in other emerging churches, Solomon's Porch stresses participation and relationships. Fast-paced computer images and contemporary music keep the digital-age young people involved. On his personal website, Pagitt refers to himself as "a social and theological entrepreneur."


----------



## GloriousBoaz (Oct 27, 2013)

Yeah you don't quite get the full impact of that "Robbed Hell" video unless you know the context. The context is that it is a parody for satire to expose the foolishness of this video Rob Bell - LOVE WINS: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. - YouTube which is a real video advertising for a real book, a book that is jam packed full of universalistic heresy. Rob Bell is the "pastor" leader of the most insidious form of the emergent church, the modern liberal mystic new agers basically. What the video if you haven't seen it for Rob Bell's book, it'll probably make to weep and want to punch something at the same time. There is a lot of praying that needs to be done for our American "Christianity", because as much as most of these people just want their ears scratched and heap for themselves these heretical teachings, they are still souls that will burn in hell for all eternity and we don't know how many of them are elect and are just not regenerate yet, they need prayed for. I was one of these people. I went from catholic, to lutheran, to prosperity, to signs and wonders seeking, to evangellyfish and now I have "emerged" (lol) into sound doctrine. But I wasn't lost and unregenerate for all of those phases I was just ignorant and on milk with no one to care enough to come along side me and disciple me and teach me sound doctrine. God's Spirit moved me to press into the Word and then by His instruction come out from among them. We do need to labor in the mission field of the wreckage of these false church, because make no mistake it is a mission field; just as much as the catholic church or the Jews are.


----------



## kvanlaan (Oct 27, 2013)

Yep, sorry, I should have given more background, but there was just something about the question in the OP and a couple of the comments that reminded me of parts of that video - I think that it shows a lot of what is drawing people away from the true church and into these quasi-church, quasi-Christian organizations. Like he says in the video, people hate that orthodox Christianity comes along and takes down the hard questions, so they have to move the goalposts and reinvent the Christian religion so that they can infuse it with uncertainty and raise a whopping crop of questions from which you will never emerge, but will feel so very intelligent posing to others. (And you can always refute heresy claims with "you don't know my heart; just because I am not in a church doesn't mean I don't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!" The other handy standby is to make sure that you answer any charges of heterodoxy with "it's not a salvation issue!") The "Why I hate religion, but love Jesus" is another one the emergents seem to love.


----------



## kvanlaan (Oct 27, 2013)

Wow, just watched the Rob Bell video that the parody is based on and truly, this man is deceived. And taking others with him.


----------



## GloriousBoaz (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah Rob Bell is scary.

That parody really hits the crux of Rob Bell though when it says "I know i'm a pastor and all, but I could make a lot more money puzzling over silly questions than I could preaching actual answers. and I think that is why so many people want to have nothing to do with the christian faith, it keeps providing answers, when its so much more fun to puzzle over silly questions."

That is brilliant I will remember that for a long time because that is the heart of all that is wrong in Rob Bell, and those a kin to his "theology".


----------



## SolaSaint (Oct 29, 2013)

kvanlaan said:


> It was actually a parody on Rob Bell and his ilk, but this is quite often what is fed to the youth who go 'seeking' for something newer, more spiritual, etc. Try listening to Doug Pagitt for more than five minutes and you will find much of the same nonsense. But for some reason it is very appealing to the youth.
> 
> Just ran across this about Doug: As in other emerging churches, Solomon's Porch stresses participation and relationships. Fast-paced computer images and contemporary music keep the digital-age young people involved. On his personal website, Pagitt refers to himself as "a social and theological entrepreneur."



Well I feel like an idiot. That video sailed right over my head. I thought the guy was for real....LOL

I agree about Pagitt, he is real hard to listen too. I heard him interview Spong once and it was very difficult to listen to.


----------



## JimmyH (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm grateful that I belong to a traditional Church, the congregation singing out of the doctrinally rich hymnal with piano or organ accompaniment. No widescreens, electric guitars, or praise bands. Traditional but _not dead_, with a congregation of young, middle aged, to older folks such as myself. Give me that old time religion. It's good enough for me.

Reactions: Like 1


----------

