# Understanding the times



## Wayne (Nov 3, 2012)

I've never been much on the end times prophetic portions of Scripture (perhaps an over-reaction to my dispensational early days as a young believer), but this seemed to have much in it that made sense. I'd like to see your thoughtful responses. The author is a pastor in Louisiana, used to be PCA, is now EPC.

https://www.facebook.com/rbvincentsr/posts/529991643696498


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 3, 2012)

I won't deny any of the accurate observations of the article, especially if they convey plain biblical teachings. So if you were to ask me, "Well, don't you believe _______?" I may very well say YES, but that doesn't commit me to a conclusion based on a specific concatenation of contextually unrelated parts. A *collage* by design is meant to lead an observer to "see" a picture through artful arrangement; but that's not the same thing as saying the elements were created to show that picture.

Systematics is a fundamentally different exercise, although it could lead to a conclusion that shows a picture. Systematics does not begin by trying to make sense of a current "window on the world," but is decisively descriptive, much more akin to putting a jigsaw puzzle together. Only antecedently does any sort of picture emerge, and when it does, it is not a picture that we have any control over. Instead, we then look at the world around us, and find either an exact replication of the picture (possibly THE very source), or an analogous instance, or a skewed instance of what IS (reality) rather than what OUGHT to be (the picture).

I found some of the article's exposition speculative, and at key points resting upon some confident claims about ancient worldviews--assumptions I don't share.

The author tries to build a cumulative case from the earlier portions (in which he draws together from various Scripture texts a sort-of _theology of the extrasensory world,_ or a demonology/angelology, to his latter contemporary analysis of the present era. Again, I find myself in stark disagreement with key points of his interpretation. Once he makes the leap to the Bible's alleged prophecy of Islm, I consider the article completely off the rails.


To be perfectly honest, I think "radical Islm" is a boogeyman. Believe me, I am perfectly aware of certain Mslm fanatics, and their preachers of violence, and the tactics they are wont to employ. And I'm also aware of the ease by which some people are manipulated, whether into violence, or into the belief that particular violent people are the vanguard of all the forces of riot and eventual slavery. Most of the signs of energy out of the MiddleEast are "stimulus-response" movements. Much of the violence (on any side) is the product of parties wielding _armaments_ (implements for forcing the unwilling) supplied from various external sources having private, alien designs for or from the chaos.

Ignoring the last 500 years of geopolitics in the analysis of Islm as a movement is both common, and ridiculous. Proposing that a proper analysis of it begins and ends with a Bible study is borderline lunacy. I think it is a pretty fiction that "Islm rises again." At the beginning of the 20th century, Islmic culture had been in worldwide decline for at least 250 years. The Ottomans were the last empirically dominant force. No suitable replacement existed when they fell, and none has even partially threatened a resurgence.

One of the most glaring demonstrations of the rotting Ottoman edifice was their (typical) scapegoating of the minority Armenian population. A major rule of hegemonic statecraft is: _when a bullying government is no longer capable of projecting power outward, the remaining force is inevitably turned inward._ A word to the wise is sufficient.


There is a particular narrative that governs most discussions--religious or political--in this part of the world, as they concern _that_ part of the world. It is a narrative that studiously avoids a detailed study of a rather expansive and diverse region of the world, filled with various peoples, languages, and societies (however much they have in common--one might as well say that there's a blanket set of truths that describe all Euro-Americans); and like modern evangelicalism, thinks that relevant _history_ of that vast region began in the mid 20th century, allowing for a kind-of hopscotching back through time that highlights the appropriate pillars for confirming that "The End of History" has arrived. Wouldn't you know, we're the apex of societal evolution! wheeee. Instead of insight, we are treated to a boilerplate B/W picture, built on a predetermined (_a priori_) scheme of history.

I think we (I mean the Western Church) are all due for a re-reading of Augustin's "The City of God." People were pretty confident that was the end of the world then, until it wasn't. It was the end of society as it had been for a long time. Similar attitudes continue to show themselves as the centuries roll by, as cultures and empires rise and fall. Our self-centered perspective continues to reveal its silly face, as we associate the end of the world with the downfall going on around US (b/c we're the center of the universe). Didn't Jesus offer his own disciples a corrective on that score, Mt.24? When Jesus predicted the obliteration of the gorgeous Temple, the disciples' radically ethno-centric vision showed itself in their apparent difficulty in separating the two ideas: end of Temple, and end of whole world.

Daniel and Revelation are actually pretty good books to study on the subject of the Christian's and the Church's role in the world, relative to worldly powers. The fact is, the prophet's and the apostle's observations aren't just relevant to some particular time unto which their prophecies point. They are instructive to constituents of Christ's Kingdom in every age, as they offer up analysis of Christ's power versus various manifestations of earthly power. It is the biblical writers' point to establish the antithesis.

There will be times when the cultural environment is not so toxic to the Church as at other times. Those are times when it could be most important to refresh ourselves on key points of antithesis, even as we thank God for a time of relative tranquility, even as we may find ways (as Daniel did) to interject a Christian's often contrarian perspective into the workings of worldly powers.

And there will be times when Christians need to be alerted to the great gulf that has opened between the ethics of the Kingdom, and the immorality of unbridled human lust for power. They need more desperately then, when they have sometimes been for a while quite *cozy* with the surrounding culture, to be awakened out of stupor to the radical nature of the antithesis between the death-style of this world, and the Life of the world to come.


In conclusion, I think a focus on the "spirits" that "rule" or whatever, in the unseen realm are not what we should be trying to "keep an eye on." We are in a spiritual battle, but the foes we are directed to face, as "good soldiers" of our Lord Jesus Christ, are all too human. The monsters with whom we have to do are mere men. These are still monsters of iniquity, and depraved to the core, and enemies of grace. But human they remain.

Acton's dictum still holds: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The country many of us live in today is the most powerful--economically and militarily--in the history of mankind; and evidence of its rampant corruption is not hard to spot. Does anyone think that we are "voting" next week on whether or not we are going to get a "good" spirit or a "bad" spirit in charge? Or a "better" or "worse" spirit? Will one "spirit" take on the "Islmic-spirit," and the other make an alliance? This is a bizarre distraction, whether on an earthly plane or a spiritual one. Those who would make a serf of you and me are already poised to do so, and the majority are oblivious, seeing only where their blinkered eyes are directed.

This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang,
but a whimper.


----------



## SolaScriptura (Nov 3, 2012)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I think we (I mean the Western Church) are all due for a re-reading of Augustin's "The City of God."



Ooh, thanks for reminding me. It has been about 5 years since I've even touched that great book... I need to go blow the dust off it and read it again.


----------



## KMK (Nov 3, 2012)

SolaScriptura said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > I think we (I mean the Western Church) are all due for a re-reading of Augustin's "The City of God."
> ...



The unabridged version?


----------



## OPC'n (Nov 3, 2012)

That was too long to read. Does he try to conclude that the end times are here?


----------



## Wayne (Nov 3, 2012)

No, Sarah, I don't think that's necessarily his conclusion. It was long, wasn't it?


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 3, 2012)

Some thoughts:

I didn’t like pastor Vincent’s view of 2 Kings 3:27, where he says, “The implication of the text is that when the king of Moab sacrificed the heir apparent, Chemosh came to the aid of the Moabites and poured out his fury against Israel so that they departed”. I prefer John Gill's view. And even more, Richard Hess' (scroll down a bit). Too much credit given to the demonic.

When Vincent says, “The Protestant Reformers saw Islam as the supernatural thing let loose out of the abyss in Revelation 9. The ruling spirit over it is very powerful, indeed”, this is not balanced. The word of Lord says, “I give unto you power over all the power of the enemy . . . the spirits are subject unto you” (Luke 10:19, 20). Though he does throughout reiterate the truth of God’s sovereignty and overriding power over all things in heaven and on earth.

Could the Scripture in Rev 9 (5th and 6th seals) be referring to the overspreading darkness of Islm? It’s not impossible, though I have other views on that. As I hold, in G.K. Beale’s terminology, an Eclectic, or a Redemptive-Historical Form of Modified Idealism, I can, however, see the possibility of an historical manifestation of the darkness seen in the 5th seal. This may be a progressive dynamic, demonic darkness pouring into the world throughout the age, increasing as the end nears. Or it could be some singular dynamic toward the end.

When pastor Vincent speaks of “Christendom”, I think he allows too much with regard to Rome and EO, even though the Lord does use the wicked to chasten the backsliding godly (referring here to true churches). And I wouldn’t call Rome or EO backsliding, but apostate (yes, there are some regenerated souls in both).

I share Pastor Bruce’s skepticism (too mild a word?) with respect to such an emphasis on “territorial spirits” – though I do believe there are such. And I also think too much credit given to the threat of Islm, though to give too little errs in the other direction.

I also like what Pastor Bruce says about our needing to make the antithesis clear and present, and that this is one of the themes in Revelation. I think this is a very interesting sentence of his: “A major rule of hegemonic statecraft is: _when a bullying government is no longer capable of projecting power outward, the remaining force is inevitably turned inward._ A word to the wise is sufficient.” [emphasis his]

I do think Pastor Bruce might look askance (too mild a word?) at my own eschatological view as well!

Though I am pleased to see a Reformed pastor give some attention to the reality of the demonic and their influence on the nations, and individuals therein.

I did like Vincent’s thoughts about _zeitgeist_ (spirit of the age) and _weltanschauung_ (worldview).

I see Islm as _part_ of Gog and Magog (symbolic of the unregenerate of the world turned against the church, and seeking to destroy it), but not those entities themselves. They are to many third world nations – and the Christians in them – as more multinational forces will be to the Christians in the West, and the developed countries. I’ll be writing about these things in a thread / threads shortly.


----------



## py3ak (Nov 4, 2012)

Thank you, Bruce, that was excellent. I enjoy the way you are able to draw on an eclectic variety of sources to make your points.


----------



## MW (Nov 4, 2012)

2 Peter 2:4, "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Jude 6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The Scriptures are our only rule of faith and life, but not everything in Scripture is written to be a rule to us. The ideas and sayings of wicked men are no rule to us. The world over which Christ is Lord is not a world ruled by angels and demons but a world ruled by the one only living, true, and eternal God. The ignorant and superstitious ascribe power and divinity to things which are by nature no gods. Men use the concepts of angels and demons in order to manipulate the thoughts and feelings of their fellow men to their own advantage. These things have no real power in and of themselves. It is very sad to see a Christian, and especially a Christian pastor, resorting to these carnal concepts in order to create feelings of terror and alarm in others. Christ is Lord of all! If a man will not confess that or feels a need to qualify that in any way there is something amiss with his confession of Christ.


----------



## Wayne (Nov 4, 2012)

Thank you one and all for some excellent interaction. God is indeed sovereign over all His creation!


----------



## KaphLamedh (Nov 24, 2012)

Wayne said:


> God is indeed sovereign over all His creation!



Amen, Wayne!


----------

