# Subscribing To A Confession



## JS116 (Sep 29, 2011)

What is the proper position of a confession of faith in a Christians life?I love the Westminster Confession of Faith and have been greatly edified through it by it's essential truths and biblically sound doctrines,but sometimes I find myself reading reading the articles and lazily not so much of my bible.

I do not blame the wcf for that,in fact the confession opposes my behavior clearly in Chapter 1.I guess I've have gained so much growth,knowledge and understanding of the scriptures through it I kind of let it take the place of my daily devotion to the reading the text's,when it's supposed to be a helpful resource.

One thing i'm learning to do is prayerfully continue to be one my knees asking God to humble me while he gives me understanding of these old truth's,hold fast to them,write on my heart and enable me through the spirit to live it out so I can glorify and honor him.I know the historical church confessions aren't divinely inspired but it does always exhort and encourage me to go and trust the book that is.

Any thought's,rebukes and advice is highly encouraged

Shawn J


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## Stargazer65 (Sep 30, 2011)

I commend your prayerful attitude and concern. I've done the same thing from time to time. I'd recommend using the confession as a guide for meditating on the scriptures. Instead of meditating on the confession, meditate on the scriptures that guided the confession, otherwise it'll get to be just dry theology. If you've read the WCF already, then use it as a reference, not as a bible replacement.

Also read some other books. If you like the WCF, I also recommend reading "A Body of Divinity" by Thomas Watson.


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## Andres (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi Shawn, 
The WCF is regarded as the most faithful summary of what scripture teaches. For us Presbyterians it's essentially our "statement of faith". Of course, our lovely confession is not scripture and therefore is not infallible or authoritative on the level of scripture. And you are right that it shouldn't replace regular time in the Word of God, but I say why not both? Read the scriptures daily and also study the WCF _in addition to _the bible, but never in lieu of it. 

Often times when I reference the Westminster Standards to a non-confessional Christian, they say something like, "Well I just believe the bible", but do you see the problem with that? So many different groups claim to believe the bible, including Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, but we know that all the different denominations and cults don't believe the same thing. Why is that? Well it's because they all have their own interpretation of the bible that they believe. The Westminster Standards are what we believe to be the most faithful summary of scripture. Another way of putting that is to say the Westminster Standards are how we interpret scripture or what we understand the bible to teach. So in that sense, yes, it's good to be familiar with the WCF, WLC, and WSC because if you are familiar with them, then you will have a good grasp of right doctrine/theology.


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## JS116 (Oct 3, 2011)

Appreciate it,thanks for taking the time to respond guys.I think I will use your advice Andrew and do both.I'm making it my priority to read my bible then the wcf.Then the only problem from there is the more I read that the more Presbyterian I become haha


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## Scott1 (Oct 3, 2011)

As Andres said, the Westminster Standards (Confession, Larger and Shorter Catechism) are taken as a faithful summary of the doctrine of Scripture on those doctrines to which they speak.

They are time tested, having had much godly scrutiny over 400 years.

They provide a short-hand basis of unity for the church, which must be based on doctrinal agreement because God commands His people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

The Standards do not claim to be infallible as the Scriptures are, because there were not inspired in a revelatory sense by the Holy Spirit. The Scripture is inspired in that sense.

It's not an "either/or" proposition. The Standards are not set against Scripture, nor _vice versa_. 

So, you ought spend time with both, but a lot more time in the Scriptures. 

That's not saying, "don't spend much time in the Standards because they are not important, compared to Scripture," it is saying:

Both are important, and should have substantive time, memorization and meditation directed toward them as a basic discipline of the Christian life.

Yet, the Scriptures alone are inerrant and infallible, are alone the complete special revelation of God until the end of this world, and are much, much fuller and complete.

The proper place of the Standards is as a support to the Scriptures, a valuable one indeed, but are not an end unto themselves.


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## JS116 (Oct 28, 2011)

Well guys to wrap up Reformation Month,by October 31st 2011 I will have a final decision on which historic church confession I will be subscribing to!

As I said before I first was introduced to the Westminster Confession of Faith and now I have been reading the 2nd London 1689 Baptist Confession,Both are faithful summaries of christian doctrine.I believe every christian should hold to a confession of faith,which also saves time when trying to plow out verse by verse what a person believes.I will post a new thread when I biblcally ans prayerfully come to a come to a conclusion.I just hope I dont get excommunicated by my church since some already know I'm becoming more closer to being officially confessionally reformed haha.

HAPPY REFORMATION MONTH! 

-Soli Deo Gloria


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## Tim (Oct 28, 2011)

JS116 said:


> Well guys to wrap up Reformation Month,by October 31st 2011 I will have a final decision on which historic church confession I will be subscribing to!



Don't put a date on it, brother. Take the time to come to your convictions.


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## JS116 (Oct 28, 2011)

Tim said:


> JS116 said:
> 
> 
> > Well guys to wrap up Reformation Month,by October 31st 2011 I will have a final decision on which historic church confession I will be subscribing to!
> ...



Agreed,I just personally believe that no matter which one I pick,I can't go wrong as far as the essentials,doctrines of grace and covenant theology,I pretty much agree with the worship but not strict.

If the occurrence does happen when I disagree with my choice,It will have to be a biblical conviction.


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## Curt (Oct 28, 2011)

In 1981, when I was ordained in the RP,CES, I subscribed to the Westminster Standards. I had read and studied them and knew them well. As I have aged, gained experience, read more, kerned more, I have come to appreciate them more and more.


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## JS116 (Oct 28, 2011)

Curt said:


> In 1981, when I was ordained in the RP,CES, I subscribed to the Westminster Standards. I had read and studied them and knew them well. As I have aged, gained experience, read more, kerned more, I have come to appreciate them more and more.



Your a ordained minister at a baptist church?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 28, 2011)

I have regulated Bible time to do what is called an ABC Bible Study. I *A*nalyse a portion of scripture by trying to faithfully pray over it and write the passages out in commentary style like a paraphrase bible. I use commentaries and lexical help in trying to exegete the portion I am reading also. Then I choose a passage from the portion I read and post it as the *B*est verse that I sense the Lord is impressing upon me. I try to understand *C*ovenant promises, encouragement, and application from the passage and write out those things as I should take them before the Lord and how I should perform in light of them. 

While I have been doing this I find that the Westminster Larger Catechism has a lot subject wise and application wise concerning much of what I have studied through the years. The Lord has been so gracious in using his gifts of ministers and teachers to bring things to light so that I may be a doer of the word and not just a hearer. I would whole heartedly encourage the use of the Westminster Larger Catechism along with your prayerful time with God and His Word. But the Word of God should take first place. No doubt about it. When it speaks God speaks just like St. Peter said. 



> (2Pe 1:16) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
> 
> (2Pe 1:17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
> 
> ...


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 28, 2011)

I have regulated Bible time to do what is called an ABC Bible Study. I *A*nalyse a portion of scripture by trying to faithfully pray over it and write the passages out in commentary style like a paraphrase bible. I use commentaries and lexical help in trying to exegete the portion I am reading also. Then I choose a passage from the portion I read and post it as the *B*est verse that I sense the Lord is impressing upon me. I try to understand *C*ovenant promises, encouragement, and application from the passage and write out those things as I should take them before the Lord and how I should perform in light of them. 

While I have been doing this I find that the Westminster Larger Catechism has a lot subject wise and application wise concerning much of what I have studied through the years. The Lord has been so gracious in using his gifts of ministers and teachers to bring things to light so that I may be a doer of the word and not just a hearer. I would whole heartedly encourage the use of the Westminster Larger Catechism along with your prayerful time with God and His Word. But the Word of God should take first place. No doubt about it. When it speaks God speaks just like St. Peter said. 



> (2Pe 1:16) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
> 
> (2Pe 1:17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
> 
> ...


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## JS116 (Oct 28, 2011)

Amen,I agree 100% I have been skimming through the WLC these past couple of days,it is VERY helpful and encouraging.

During the past years of intense bible studying and prayer I firmly and consciously believe through scripture God has lead me to hold to the very things the historic reformed faith has held to starting with the Solas,then the creeds,finally the confessions.None of these would encourage divine inspiration or try to be authoritative over scripture,but are a faithful summary of what we believe his word teaches us.


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## Jack K (Oct 28, 2011)

The confession defines where we stand doctrinally, and that's a good and necessary thing. But I spend much, much more time with my nose in the Bible than I do reading the confession. I think that's a good thing, too. That's studying the primary documents of our faith and soaking in God's direct Word to us.


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## Andrew P.C. (Oct 28, 2011)

Maybe it's the church I am a member at but I personally like the three forms better the the westminster standards. Even though I do love the Westminster standards, I'm still partial to the three forms of unity.


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## dudley (Oct 30, 2011)

*I also love the Westminster Confession of Faith*



JS116 said:


> What is the proper position of a confession of faith in a Christians life?I love the Westminster Confession of Faith and have been greatly edified through it by it's essential truths and biblically sound doctrines,but sometimes I find myself reading reading the articles and lazily not so much of my bible.
> 
> I do not blame the wcf for that,in fact the confession opposes my behavior clearly in Chapter 1.I guess I've have gained so much growth,knowledge and understanding of the scriptures through it I kind of let it take the place of my daily devotion to the reading the text's,when it's supposed to be a helpful resource.
> 
> ...



I also love the Westminster Confession of Faith. I was first introduced to the WCF while exploring an OPC congregation after leaving the catholic church. I experienced a conversion while in the class and believed it's essential truths and biblically sound doctrines are correct as a Christian. 

I have also read the LBC and the 3 Forms of unity. However it is scripture which for me is the final authority in faith. I was by Gods grace elected to the Reformed faith and through that grace confessed faith in Jesus Christ alone as my savior. I became a Presbyterian by Public affirmation of faith before the congregation I now belong to. I worship every Sunday and give glory to God alone; as a Presbyterian and a protestant I firmly believe in Justification by faith alone and the five solas of the Reformation. 

I believe that there is essential truth in the LBC and the 3 forms of Unity; I subscribe to the original Westminster Confession of Faith because I believe it most accurately describes the essential truths of doctrine based on biblically sound evidence. You must follow your conscience and pray that God guides you to a confession you can subscribe to with a love that is true but remember it is really the bible that holds all the essential truths of faith.


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## jwithnell (Oct 30, 2011)

Shawn, I had to convince myself to read my Bible before reading my newspaper in the morning, so you are starting out in a far better position  

Seriously, you might get confused if you don't read or refer to the WCF, but you will starve if you don't read the Bible. I would not be too concerned about pronouncing your confessional standard -- study the scriptures, use the confessions to answer the question: OK, so what have reformed folks traditionally said about XYZ? Then see where you end up. Personally, I questioned, debated, read, "argued the other side" and generally made a big deal of accepting the facets of the WCF one at a time. Thirty years later, that initial structure remains soundly intact.


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## Scott1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Maybe it's the church I am a member at but I personally like the three forms better the the westminster standards. Even though I do love the Westminster standards, I'm still partial to the three forms of unity.



I was greatly comforted a few years ago when a PCA Pastor told me the "Three Forms of Unity" (Canons of Dordt, Heidelberg Catechism and Belgaic Confession) are "the same theology as the Westminster Standards."

That's why in PCA churches, and I think in other biblical reformed Presbyterian denominations, the "Three Forms" are freely quoted and occasionally expounded upon.


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## JS116 (Nov 29, 2011)

I think I am getting closer in my journey to subscribing to a confession.It's not written in stone yet but I am leaning towards the Westminster confession as a primary secondary article of faith and the 3 Forms of Unity as personal application to the Westminster as the 3FU seems more experiential but I understand and agree with a high majority of the doctrine in the WCF.

I feel My current calvinistic progressive dispensational baptist church won't be too comforting to my new affirmations  haha

All seriousness brethren pray for me that I not be persuaded by man,but stand convicted to hold fast to the biblcal doctrines of the word of God and affirm these truth's rejoicing them and subscribing to them fully with a clear conscience.


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## Weston Stoler (Nov 29, 2011)

JS116 said:


> I think I am getting closer in my journey to subscribing to a confession.It's not written in stone yet but I am leaning towards the Westminster confession as a primary secondary article of faith and the 3 Forms of Unity as personal application to the Westminster as the 3FU seems more experiential but I understand and agree with a high majority of the doctrine in the WCF.
> 
> I feel My current calvinistic progressive dispensational baptist church won't be too comforting to my new affirmations  haha
> 
> All seriousness brethren pray for me that I not be persuaded by man,but stand convicted to hold fast to the biblcal doctrines of the word of God and affirm these truth's rejoicing them and subscribing to them fully with a clear conscience.



Their are two churches in my city. A rather large progressive Dispensational calvinist church and a Presbyterian PCA church (PCUSA's do not count. We have 3 of those). I went to the Dispensational baptistic church for a while and finally couldn't take it because I had seen so much hyper dispensationalism in my old church plus I really didn't like big churches so I made the switch. Eventually I was convinced of Presbyterian doctrines. (although I am still studying eschatology and RPW(Both of which they don't have a strict view for anyways). I understand where you are coming from.

---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

to add the other church was an amazing church. I just didn't feel comfortable.


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## Scott1 (Nov 29, 2011)

Weston Stoler said:


> I had seen so much hyper dispensationalism



Without describing itself as such, the Westminster Confession _is_ covenant theology.

I'm not sure "hyper" dispensationalism is a correct term. Dispensationalism is what it is. It originally meant a framework of looking at the whole of Scripture assuming God did redemption in substantially different ways at different times in man's history AND that there is a separate plan of redemption for those who have some Jewish blood from that of everyone else.

Dispensationalism is not that old, relatively speaking, beginning from the middle 1800's, and not "systematized" until the early 1900's, really in the form of a loose collection of Bible notes (Schofield Reference Bible) whereas covenant theology, explicitly is much older (1500's). Covenant theology was much more the way the church before that looked at Scripture, though not systematized.

In this generation, dispensationalism means primarily the latter proposition, the former having been mostly abandoned as it was challenged.

If by "hyper" you mean an undue preoccupation with "end times" speculation, that is a by product of that framework. Part of the reason is that it views the Kingdom of God wrongly, imagining it to be a wholly future thing, and first a political Kingdom involving one nation.

God's plan has ALWAYS been to redeem the nations, broadly reflecting His creation.


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## dudley (Nov 29, 2011)

*I subscribe to the Westminster Confession*

I subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith as I believe it is a full statement of what we believe as Presbyterians. The Westminster Confession I also believe basis itself on a major point which is the true difference between being a Protestant Christian and being a Roman catholic. The dividing points I think are the great Protestant doctrine of Justification and the 5 solas of the glorious Protestant Reformation. The Reformed confessions were based on the Five solas of the glorious Protestant Reformation. Scripture alone being our final authority teaches us that salvation is by His grace alone, through Faith alone in Christ alone, for the Glory of God alone.

I have also read the Three Forms of Unity and I am in agreement with those confessions and agree basically with all that is said in the 3 Forms of Unity. I have also read the LBC which in many ways is similar to the WCF however the WCF is my guide to living my Christian faith as s a Protestant because it states to me what we essentially believe as Presbyterians and I am a Presbyterian. 

As a Presbyterian I am also a Protestant and thus have read and keep all the Reformed confessions handy as guides because they define the principles of why we are Protestants. 

The final point however is to keep in my mind that the scriptures are in fact our final authority and like your statement from Luther which I also agree “"And where they disagree with Scripture, I deny Pope and council and all. A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest Pope without it.”- Martin Luther

No man man made authority ever can replace the Scriptures and the Gospels as our final authority. It is why I am a Protestant and not a Roman catholic.

Pray on the confession to follow and God will guide you.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 30, 2011)

Scott1 said:


> Andrew P.C. said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's the church I am a member at but I personally like the three forms better the the westminster standards. Even though I do love the Westminster standards, I'm still partial to the three forms of unity.
> ...



I am not that familiar with the TFU, unfortunately, with the exception of some parts of the Heidelberg. One Presbyterian elder told me that he found the Heidelberg Catechism to have a more warm, devotional quality than the Westminster Standards, although he fully subscribed to the WS.


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