# Calvinistic question- John 15:6



## bond-servant (Jan 27, 2005)

Here is an "in the process of reforming" question. Please share your view and why: 

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not3362, 5100, 3306 in1722 me,1698 he is cast906 forth1854 as5613 a branch,2814 and2532 is withered;3583 and2532 men gather4863 them,846 and2532 cast906 them into1519 the fire,4442 and2532 they are burned.2545 (KJV)

Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. (ESV)


"œgather" #4863
G4863
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Thayer Definition:
1) to gather together, to gather
1a) to draw together, collect
1a1) of fishes
1a2) of a net in which they are caught
2) to bring together, assemble, collect
2a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)
2b) to gather together by convoking
2c) to be gathered, i.e. come together, gather, meet
3) to lead with one´s self
3a) into one´s home, i.e. to receive hospitably, to entertain
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer´s/Strong´s Number: from G4862 and G71

It appears the word "œmen" isn´t in the Greek.
There is a huge difference in implication between these two translations:

The 2nd translation implies that if one does not continue to abide in Christ, he is cast out into hell.

The 1 st implies that if one does not continue to abide in Christ, he is trampled under the feet of men, so to speak, cast into the trials and fires of life to be afflicted by other men. 

There are commentaries to support both views. There are commentaries that imply these passages are speaking of believers in Christ that do not persevere, others say if you don´t persevere you were never a believer. 

As of now, I agree that if you do not persevere, you were never a believer.

Many passages support this: 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

So what do you think: are the men that do not bear fruit being gathered and thrown into the fire by other men, or by God?

Secondly, are these believers, or non-believers?


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 27, 2005)

I want to comment on this, but have to think about it. But I know when I come back there will be so many great replies all I will be able to do is say ditto.

While that's cool in a way, it's also frustrating.

Great question though!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 27, 2005)

I think the men that gather them could be those who are not of Christ. In other words, it could be telling us how easily they are taken in by those who are not in Christ because they are not either, or only in profession, nothing more.

THis could also be angles gathering them with the tares for burning.

They are unbelievers, but part of the visable church in my opinion.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 27, 2005)

Hey, I didn't have to  anyone!

Maybe someone could  me, that hardley ever happens.


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## Ivan (Jan 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I think the men that gather them could be those who are not of Christ. In other words, it could be telling us how easily they are taken in by those who are not in Christ because they are not either, or only in profession, nothing more.
> 
> THis could also be angles gathering them with the tares for burning.
> ...



 There you go! 

As to you statement...wheat and tares thing, right?


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 27, 2005)

Right


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