# Jews for Judaism



## Hamalas (Dec 16, 2013)

Has anyone come across this group before: JewsforJudaismCanada - YouTube Julius Ciss apparently was a former Jews for Jesus missionary who has since rejected Christianity and embraced the Jewish faith. Any thoughts about this group or the claims they make? I have my own thoughts but would love to hear yours.


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## Eoghan (Dec 16, 2013)

see my book review for "Judaism is not Jewish"


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## Hamalas (Dec 16, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> see my book review for "Judaism is not Jewish"



I'd love to! Where can I find it?


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## Tirian (Dec 17, 2013)

I've had cause to look at the site a few times in the recent past. From what I have seen it is a site aiming to "reform" jews. They want to counter Christian evangelism to Jews - some of which (the Christian evangelism) is embarrassing.


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## Scott1 (Dec 17, 2013)

> II Timothy 4:10
> 
> 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.


.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 17, 2013)

I had some exposure to them back in the late 90s, when I was attending Moody located in Chicago. Due to the large number of Jews in the Chicagoland area, Jews for Jesus had a large ministry presence. Jews for Judaism has in mind the goal of countering the evangelistic efforts of the Christians. I once heard a Jews for Judaism spokesman rep actually say that a Jew becoming a Christian was so bad that it warranted the use of deception to keep it from happening. Ah, nothing like the desire for truth.

At any rate, while I haven't been to their website in nearly a decade, it used to contain some interesting material articulating a Jewish perspective on various issues raised by us as we go around talking about how old covenant Jews supposedly believed, etc.


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## Timobe (Dec 17, 2013)

Like Eoghan said, modern jewish people are not the jewish people of the time of Jesus... I frequent them for nearly three years now and i can say that some of them are as far from God's revelation in the Tanakh (OT) as a non-jewish is. Many of them, for example, teach reincarnation (with the Talmud and especially the Zohar, then finding reincarnation in the Tanakh is no big deal for them) because of the justification by the accomplishment of the Torah doctrine. If someone say that one can be justified by this way, he quickly discover that a man doesn't have the time nor the strength to accomplish the whole Torah in his life perfectly. So, according to many rabbi of our day, God can make you reincarnate till you access the stature of "Tsadik", Right man who accomplish the Torah and deserve salvation. One of the example of the popularity of that doctrine is in the really known Jewish sect of Nahman of Bratslav, the Hassidic rabbi, who teach that (and many jewish esoteric things). His movement is really strong. It's important to have that in mind... For me, modern Judaism is like (Tanakh [OT] = Torah, Neviim [prophets], Ktuvims [writings]) : 15% of Torah, 5% of Prophets, 5% of Writings and 75% of Talmud, Zohar,... When you compare the two, the Tanakh look really small in face of the Talmud, Zohar,... pile of jewish sacred books. And I'm not talking of the hundred movements and rabbi with each of them their own original interpretations !


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## davdavis (Dec 17, 2013)

Actually I,ve often wondered how someone, particularly a dispensationalist, would define the concept of "a Jew". If its defined religiously, are Reformed and Atheist Jews, Jewish.
If defined ethnically its even more confusing. Jews from Africa are black, From Europe often blonde and blue eyed, Middle Eastern Jews look like Arabs or other Mid Eastern peoples.
The problem seems to have been faced by everyone from the Nazis to the Israelis themselves. Exactly what constitutes the Jewish People and the nation of Israel?


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 17, 2013)

davdavis said:


> Actually I,ve often wondered how someone, particularly a dispensationalist, would define the concept of "a Jew". If its defined religiously, are Reformed and Atheist Jews, Jewish.
> If defined ethnically its even more confusing. Jews from Africa are black, From Europe often blonde and blue eyed, Middle Eastern Jews look like Arabs or other Mid Eastern peoples.
> The problem seems to have been faced by everyone from the Nazis to the Israelis themselves. Exactly what constitutes the Jewish People and the nation of Israel?



Having grown up a dispensationalist, I can assure you that you make it seem a lot more complicated than it is in their mind. For them a Jew is someone who is related by blood to Abraham.


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## Peairtach (Dec 17, 2013)

davdavis said:


> Actually I,ve often wondered how someone, particularly a dispensationalist, would define the concept of "a Jew". If its defined religiously, are Reformed and Atheist Jews, Jewish.
> If defined ethnically its even more confusing. Jews from Africa are black, From Europe often blonde and blue eyed, Middle Eastern Jews look like Arabs or other Mid Eastern peoples.
> The problem seems to have been faced by everyone from the Nazis to the Israelis themselves. Exactly what constitutes the Jewish People and the nation of Israel?



I'm not a Dispensationalist but I believe that God knows who Israel after the flesh are and has promised to always have a remnant of believing people among them (I Corinthians 10:18; Romans 9-11). This means that there is always an "overlap" between Israel after the flesh and the Israel of God (the Church, Gal.6:16). The Lord doesn't seem to be stumped in identifying nations in Scripture since He made them for His worship and glory (e.g. Ps 86:9). The Jews were already less than a "pure" Abrahamic people in our Lord's day.

What you say about false teaching among the Jews, Timobe, has of course been a reality since the time of Christ and before viz. the Pharisees and Sadducees. Pharisaical teaching was eventually gathered and written down in the Talmud.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Mushroom (Dec 17, 2013)

SolaScriptura said:


> ...when I was attending Moody located in Chicago.


From now on, whenever I listen to "Unshackled!" I will think of you, Ben. Fondly.


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## ReformedChristian (Dec 17, 2013)

Yes I have come across these people before they are anti missionaries who try to revert believers in Christ to Judaism. Tovia Singer is one of their main leaders.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 17, 2013)

Mushroom said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > ...when I was attending Moody located in Chicago.
> ...



Thanks... I think...


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## Mike Gruber (Dec 25, 2013)

Hamalas said:


> Has anyone come across this group before: JewsforJudaismCanada - YouTube Julius Ciss apparently was a former Jews for Jesus missionary who has since rejected Christianity and embraced the Jewish faith. Any thoughts about this group or the claims they make? I have my own thoughts but would love to hear yours.



Wow. That is some serious apostasy. I think, if anything, this should simply instill in us a sense of urgency. The Jew needs Jesus just as much as the Estonian. Eschatologically, the overall Jewish culture which has largely rejected Jesus as the Messiah only adds to prophecy fulfillment.


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## MichaelNZ (Dec 26, 2013)

SolaScriptura said:


> davdavis said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I,ve often wondered how someone, particularly a dispensationalist, would define the concept of "a Jew". If its defined religiously, are Reformed and Atheist Jews, Jewish.
> ...



What about someone who has undergone a halachic conversion to Judaism? Would they consider such a person Jewish?


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## Peairtach (Dec 27, 2013)

MichaelNZ said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > davdavis said:
> ...



These conversions have been happening since time immemorial e.g. Ruth the Moabitess. Would the Apostles have dealt with such a person as Jewish or Gentile?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 27, 2013)

With regard to Jewish anti-missionary activity spoken of in this thread, consider the following excerpts from, *A Poet Arises In Israel*. Please pardon the severity of my tone, but this is “hard-ball”.

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I say the rabbis have led my people into the curses of Moses these past twenty centuries, for if we had pleased God and were under the sure covenant blessings and protection of Deuteronomy 28, how could we possibly have been spewed from the land to be slaughtered and despised among the goyim two thousand years, and to end up in the ovens of Hitler? The truth is – and only can be! – we have followed treasonous leaders in betrayal of our King, and we have reaped their destruction. O nation of fools, we, to be blinded so long! As the prophets foretold, the Gentiles came to His light, and we followed our teachers into darkness.

Awake, O Israel, for the days further darken, and we need our Mighty One to see our way. Seek out the Messianic Jews among us, and cast off the pretenders who have slain our millions!



*SOVEREIGNITIS*

With regard to the church's – both Gentiles and Messianics – attitude to Orthodox Jewry, and their suppression of the saving knowledge of Messiah among their countrymen, I think we have been stricken with a theological malaise called sovereignitis, wherein we overlook and excuse the role and responsibility of men because of our knowledge of the overriding sovereignty of God. I am applying this to the present where the most horrible crimes of spiritual genocide are committed against a people and we are of a mind to "respect the dignity" of the perpetrators because they are clergy or religious. And we get all theological about it and dress the horror of it with verses from Romans so that it even looks sort of Biblical, whereas in reality it _far_ outstrips the horror of Herod's butchering Bethlehem's little lambs before their mothers. Those whom Messiah denounced as sealing off the door of the kingdom to others (Luke 11:52, Matt 23:13), pronouncing divine woes upon them, _we_ want to have a more nuanced view of them, granting them a Biblical dignity, while the screams of their victims resound through the corridors of Hell, and those still in the world soak the ground with their tears and their blood.



*An Alien Regime*

There is a phenomenon in the Jewish State that is matched only in nations where entrenched demonic strongholds control much of the religious and/or political life of those nations – such as those under fundamentalist Islamic or Hindu, or communist rule – and that is the legal persecution of believers in _*Yeshua*_ with government sanction, and violent persecution without government interference.

If it is indeed the case that an alien regime, whose capital is in Gehenna, wields the spiritual scepter in Jerusalem – with considerable political influence – then our strategy of appeasement by avoidance of the prophetic stance will be as effective as British appeasement prior to the Second World War. Gehennian regimes eat appeasers for breakfast.

If it is said, "But they have been the standard-bearers of Judaism for centuries, and through awful persecutions have preserved Torah for our people," it must be noted that that which they have preserved is not authentic Judaism, and all who hold to this spurious version of it shall perish, for it is the devil's snare – this version of Judaism – concocted for the purpose of destroying the nation by sealing it against Messiah's Spirit. The "Torah" they have preserved is not the Torah of Moses at all, for the instruction of Moses pointed to Messiah, and so it was with all the prophets. The "Torah" they preserved is a counterfeit, and _all_ who stake their souls on this teaching will lose them eternally.

To put it plainly, the rabbis have destroyed more souls than ever did Hitler or Hamas. They have destroyed more Jews than all the evil Gentiles and "Christians" up through the ages, by leading us into the dread curses of Moses (the Fifth Book, chapter 28; Isaiah 9:16).

The true story of these things is being suppressed in unrighteousness, and a fresh retelling of it – in the vigor of the LORD's Spirit – will provide an exposure of the evil, and a vision of God's love for His people, and it will happen, for a poet arises in Israel.


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## Tirian (Dec 27, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> These conversions have been happening since time immemorial e.g. Ruth the Moabitess. Would the Apostles have dealt with such a person as Jewish or Gentile?



Neither - rather in Christ, or not!


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## Peairtach (Dec 27, 2013)

Tirian said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > These conversions have been happening since time immemorial e.g. Ruth the Moabitess. Would the Apostles have dealt with such a person as Jewish or Gentile?
> ...



The Apostle Paul evangelised all unbelievers as unbelievers but he had a different approach in the way that he did it, vis-a-vis Jewish unbelievers and Gentile unbelievers.


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