# Kent Hovind-- Real or Flake?



## heartoflesh

Rarely have I seen someone so attacked and ridiculed on the WWW. I don't take this as evidence in itself that he's a flake. So what's up with him? Is he to be trusted? 

And what about that Ken Hamm guy?

I need to do some research and figure out who can be trusted and who can't. Trouble is, I'm not a scientist. 

We have this book at home with drawings of people riding dinosaurs which my wife has been reading to our kids. I think it came from Hovind's organization, but I'm not sure. I don't disagree with the young earth position theologically, but I get a weird feeling in my stomach when I look at this book. I feel like I need something more reliable, and need to be a little more assured of my own beliefs on the matter before I start indoctrinating my children.


So, if Hovind is a flake, what in your opinion is the most reliable Young Earth research out there?


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## Augusta

Ken Hamm is at least reformed and takes a scientific approach. Kent Hovind is in federal prison and being tried for tax evasion because God told him he didn't have to pay taxes because he was doing His work.


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## heartoflesh

Augusta said:


> Kent Hovind is in federal prison and being tried for tax evasion because God told him he didn't have to pay taxes because he was doing His work.



[JOHNNY CARSON VOICE] *I did not know that......* [/JOHNNY CARSON VOICE]

I'm currently reading Wikipedia regarding Young Earth Creationism. It is making me dizzy.


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## Augusta

Actually he was found guilty of all counts on last Friday Nov. 3rd. Here is an article.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061103/NEWS01/611030338/1006


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## JoshCasey

That's interesting about Hovind. I'm sorry to hear about the tax evasion. I must say the videos of his that I have seen were informative (and very funny).


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## Blue Tick

I am sorry to hear that about Hovind. I knew he had some issues with taxes but I didn't realize it was this serious.

We should pray for him. 

Anyway, 2.5 years ago I saw him destroy an evolutionist at UC Davis. Hovinds a little eccentric but he sure can debate evolutionists.


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## kvanlaan

Not sure who did the entry on Wikipedia, but whoever it is has no love for the guy.


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## polemic_turtle

We have all 38~ of his DVDs. His debates are very well done, from the ones I've seen. He's got a lot of poise and one LONG Powerpoint presentation from which he draws like an encyclopedia. I'm sad to hear about his tax issues. I knew he protested such things before this; I hope he gets off light.


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## bookslover

JoshCasey said:


> That's interesting about Hovind. I'm sorry to hear about the tax evasion. I must say the videos of his that I have seen were informative (and very funny).



I notice that you're at Believer's Chapel. Did you ever hear the late S. Lewis Johnson there? I think he was a sorta/kinda Reformed teacher in some areas. And he has a _lot of archived messages on the website._


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## Pilgrim

bookslover said:


> I notice that you're at Believer's Chapel. Did you ever hear the late S. Lewis Johnson there? I think he was a sorta/kinda Reformed teacher in some areas. And he has a _lot of archived messages on the website._


_

He was a dispensationalist who was also a 5 pointer, which If I recall correctly got him into trouble at DTS and he eventually left. I haven't listened to many of his messages but I understand he was a gifted expositor. There are also some James Montgomery Boice messages on their site._


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## polemic_turtle

blessed brother Johnson! I've got some of his lectures on systematic theology and he's a very charming speaker at times with his Alabama accent. "Why, nobody but a _wild man_ would claim to remember the day of his birth!" 

..but he is dispensational, which doesn't thrill me. Still, he's got a lot of great lectures available for free; I wish more would release their material like that.


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## Pilgrim

Augusta said:


> Ken Hamm is at least reformed and takes a scientific approach. Kent Hovind is in federal prison and being tried for tax evasion because God told him he didn't have to pay taxes because he was doing His work.



I'd say flake. He's about as much of an embarrasment to evangelicalism as is Ted Haggard.


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## polemic_turtle

I think that isn't a totally fair comparison: Haggard had dealings with drugs and homosexuals; Hovind protested the tax system. Haggard has God to deal with and Hovind has the IRS. Granted, it is a moral issue when we consider that paying our taxes is an "ordinance" of man which we are to obey and be subject to, however, Hovind wasn't saying that paying taxes _per se_ was debatable, but rather whether or not they were legitimately applicable to his religious ministry.

Perhaps he was wrong and perhaps he should have born with what he considered unjust, but tell me if his ministry doesn't deserve a little better comparison than with Mr. Haggard. At least he doesn't seem on the outset to be such a hypocrite. His ministry will be missed for as long as he's gone because he really was unique. He had a standing offer to debate any number of evolutionists that dared to debate him provided that they give him an equal amount of time. He went to what he called the University of "Be-zerkly" and debated any student who would stand up to him, since no professor would. Watch the debates; he's uniformly great, from what I've seen. God bless his ministry! May he be more careful, if the Lord should bless him to get out any time soon.


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## Pilgrim

polemic_turtle said:


> I think that isn't a totally fair comparison: Haggard had dealings with drugs and homosexuals; Hovind protested the tax system. Haggard has God to deal with and Hovind has the IRS. Granted, it is a moral issue when we consider that paying our taxes is an "ordinance" of man which we are to obey and be subject to, however, Hovind wasn't saying that paying taxes _per se_ was debatable, but rather whether or not they were legitimately applicable to his religious ministry.
> 
> Perhaps he was wrong and perhaps he should have born with what he considered unjust, but tell me if his ministry doesn't deserve a little better comparison than with Mr. Haggard. At least he doesn't seem on the outset to be such a hypocrite. His ministry will be missed for as long as he's gone because he really was unique. He had a standing offer to debate any number of evolutionists that dared to debate him provided that they give him an equal amount of time. He went to what he called the University of "Be-zerkly" and debated any student who would stand up to him, since no professor would. Watch the debates; he's uniformly great, from what I've seen. God bless his ministry! May he be more careful, if the Lord should bless him to get out any time soon.



I respectfully disagree. Unique? Sure. So are "brother" Jed Smock and "Sister" Cindy, who have frequented college campuses and berated college students with their Pelagianism for several decades. Simply debating athiests and scientists and attacking evolution is not in itself commendable. This is another example where hammering the humanists is seen as more important than gospel truth. Other creationists have voiced strong objections to "Dr" Dino's methods. And he wasn't simply protesting the tax system, he flagrantly broke the law (render unto Caesar, anyone?). He also fraudently attempted to file bankruptcy in the past to evade tax liability. There appears to be a pattern of misrepresentation on a number of different fronts. May God grant him repentance.


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## polemic_turtle

Well, I don't sufficiently know the facts concerning his situation to really vindicate him, so I'll accept your response as is. I've never heard of Jed Smock or "Sister" Cindy, but then again, I hadn't heard of Hovind a short while ago, either. I don't know how well he stacks up against other creationists; I've just been impressed with the debates he's had. Before I'd be willing to give up on him, I'd have to read both sides of the story. Surely there are two sides to this, as he seems to be a Christian man, which raises him in my estimation above the likes of Haggard, whose situation admits of no vindication.

Has there been any further news about his sentencing?


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## Founded on the Rock

Pilgrim said:


> I'd say flake. He's about as much of an embarrasment to evangelicalism as is Ted Haggard.



This is post is not about Ted Haggard, but from the statement Ted Haggard made, I see the absolutely glory in the Christian faith. Obviously not anything that Ted Haggard did, because his sin was desicable and disgusting. The man should never hold leadership again and he his trust level is extremely low. 

That being said, Teg Haggard deserves our love and prayers. To come out and repent and admit to being a liar and deceiver is a truly humble thing to do. That is the glory of the Gospel right there... we are sinners and we stumble and fall and make ourselves look like complete fools, but God is always calling His people back to Himself. If the Church responds as we should to Ted Haggard, I believe there could be some great things that result inspite of his sinful actions.


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## JoshCasey

bookslover said:


> I notice that you're at Believer's Chapel. Did you ever hear the late S. Lewis Johnson there? I think he was a sorta/kinda Reformed teacher in some areas. And he has a _lot of archived messages on the website._


_

Unfortunately, I started going there some time after his teaching ministry had ended. It was very rare for him during the last stages of his life to teach. The last time that I can remember him doing so was at a ladies meeting where he could not even stand the entire time. But yes, being at Believer's Chapel I have had a good deal of his messages. He wasn't Reformed in all areas, but was a very strong 5-pointer._


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## JoshCasey

Pilgrim said:


> He was a dispensationalist who was also a 5 pointer, which If I recall correctly got him into trouble at DTS and he eventually left. I haven't listened to many of his messages but I understand he was a gifted expositor. There are also some James Montgomery Boice messages on their site.



Yeah, that's kind of the position at Believer's Chapel. I don't mind the Dispensationalism, which really isn't gone into much. It's definitely not your standard Baptist Dispensationalism either! Soteriology is much more heavily emphasized. 

What does If I recall correctly mean? I don't remember him getting in trouble at DTS - actually, from what I've heard he's rather a legend around there. He was definitely a gifted expositor... and Boice's messages are some of my favorites.


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## Pilgrim

If I recall correctly=If I Recall Correctly. 

Here's something I found on Doug Phillips blog



> One of the most gentle of these giants was Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, who departed this earth for his eternal reward on January 28, 2004. He was eighty-eight years old. Dr. Johnson was known to some as the scholar who left Dallas Theological Seminary decades ago when their discomfort with his rigorous Calvinism became clear. To other men, Dr. Johnson was the saintly Bible teacher who was involved in pastoral ministry for more than forty-five years, and who distinguished himself for his uncompromising commitment to truth. To others, Dr. Johnson was the professor whose lectures “you simply could not miss,” but whose academic requirements never failed to keep his students on their toes.



If we're going to continue to discuss Dr. Johnson, perhaps we should find an old thread about him or start a new one.


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## reformedman

flake because of his methods of logic and presentation. He uses many of the different kinds of skills that people use to win debates and can easily fool a person not knowledgable in the art of conversation and debating techniques. 
ie: 
Ad Hominem
Appeal To Authority 
Bad Analogy 
Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis
Meaningless Questions 
Poisoning The Wells 
Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension) 
Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque, You Too) 
Weasel Wording 

flake in my opinion


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## alwaysreforming

Frank,
I downloaded a debate off of SermonAudio the other day and was listening to him debate an evolutionist. I listened to maybe 20 minutes or so and nothing seemed amiss.
Then I read your above critique and continued listening to the rest of it. Lo and behold, if I didn't recognize almost everything in your list in the rest of the debate!

The evolutionist asked, "Okay, Hovind, what proof WOULD you accept, since you've dismissed all my proof so far?" (An EXCELLENT question!)
And Hovind says, "Show me an animal turning into a different kind of animal!"

And it never got any better! I was embarrassed for Hovind, and for all the Christians that must have been there, being represented by Hovind. 

His goal is obviously just to "win" the debate, regardless of what he has to do with truth or error. The evolutionist was incredulous at many of the things Hovind was saying, because it was so patently ridiculous. 

He argues the Creationist side like Dave Hunt argues Arminianism: heck with the truth, just try to win, and inflict as much damage as possible to the other side, with whatever means necessary.

I'll never waste my time listening to him again.


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## heartoflesh

I moved my response here...

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=14021


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