# What makes marriage?



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

What makes marriage?

We generally say a wedding.

But what constitutes this? Does it have to be in a church? Does it need a minister? Who can perform it? Does religion have to be involved?

In another thread it was mentioned that marriage is for everyone. We encourage unbelievers to get married. But what does this involve? If two loving atheists "get married" are they only married if it is in a church? Or would you accept the marriage if it is done in a civil ceremony?

To take this further then, lets say Jack and Jill live in a socialist/atheist country. They are believers but need to get their marriage registered and to do this they must get everything done in a registry office. As they exchange vows, sign of the documents etc... they are attended to by a uniformed government official and behind them hangs the red and yellow hammer and sickle. After this are they married? Or do they need some minister to say some special words with them in private when the government isn't watching?


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## saintjonny (Jan 27, 2009)

On what biblical basis could we say that two atheists in a civil ceremony aren't married? Or the commies for that matter, how can we biblically say that they wouldn't be married? In fact if we were being over the top, then we could point out that in the NT church no one would have been married by a minister because they wouldn't have had that power, nor would they have got married in a church building, because they didn't have any. The Christians then would have had civil ceremonies (not that they wouldn't have celebrated them as a church afterwards). In fact there's no indication in the NT that it is the role of a minister to conduct marriage ceremonies. 

The biblical basis for marriage is a man and a woman publicly leaving their parents to be joined to each other in exclusive union for as long as they live. And that can be for people who love God or for people who are at enmity with God. And that is how gracious and loving God is that he even allows those who don't believe in him to enjoy his common grace.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

So if I have a civil ceremony will I be married with my "wife"?


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## OPC'n (Jan 27, 2009)

As far as unbelievers go, they should get married by someone outside of the church. As for believers, it doesn't have to be in a church. Many nations are too poor to have churches. If their government requires that they sign papers in front of them, then they need to follow those laws since those laws don't conflict with the Bible. I would think that they need to go before a pastor to make their oaths before God. And I do believe it needs to be a pastor who marries believers.


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## saintjonny (Jan 27, 2009)

Yes! But I don't know why she is in speech marks!

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 04:12:59 EST-----



sjonee said:


> I would think that they need to go before a pastor to make their oaths before God. And I do believe it needs to be a pastor who marries believers.



On what basis?

I think there is great value in marriage within a church context and conducted by a minister/elder, I got married by a pastor myself and with the church present and in their building, but I don't by any means think that it is required because there's no biblical requirement for it.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

because if i am not married to her I can't call her my wife 

The answer to my question would have been there in the wording.


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## OPC'n (Jan 27, 2009)

saintjonny said:


> Yes! But I don't know why she is in speech marks!
> 
> -----Added 1/27/2009 at 04:12:59 EST-----
> 
> ...



Because your pastor is your leader and shepherd and he is the earthly representation of Christ or a spokesman for Christ. I'm not trying to sound Catholic in anyway...he isn't the vicar. But he is your head. What if your wife wanted to do something and claimed that she could without your consent because she couldn't find in Scripture anything that kept her from doing it? Your answer to her would be that you are her head and she is to submit to you. Our pastors function in the same way in matters such as this. I could be wrong but I don't think so.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

But if you follow that argument, your wife might ask you if she can do something, but you don't have to do it for her. So in the same way a young man could ask his minister for advice etc... but it doesn't require the minister to marry them. I just don't see the logical connection there.


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## OPC'n (Jan 27, 2009)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> But if you follow that argument, your wife might ask you if she can do something, but you don't have to do it for her. So in the same way a young man could ask his minister for advice etc... but it doesn't require the minister to marry them. I just don't see the logical connection there.



I don't understand what you are trying to say here.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 27, 2009)

http://www.rufatbaylor.org/admin/files/Marriage Is Death.mp3

http://www.rufatbaylor.org/admin/files/Marriage_ A Picture of The Gospel.mp3


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## TimV (Jan 27, 2009)

Marriage doesn't have to be in a church, nor does the oath have to be administered by an Elder. In the OT something as simple as telling the city council you've married, and giving them your shoe is enough.

But, Frasier, the oath has to be PUBLIC. Two young people with all sorts of romance in their heads, even with a justifiable resentment towards of the parties parents, running off and claiming that they are married doesn't cut it.

There are a million reasons for this. One traditional reason is to prevent seduction by a smooth talker. Or eloping, or one party hiding something from the other that the community would know about.


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## Classical Presbyterian (Jan 27, 2009)

Marriage was given to all of humankind in the Bible, as we have already had affirmed in this thread. So, when a human community recognizes the vows of a man and a woman as a marriage, they they are married. 

The only difference I see from this and the Christian community is that we have certain additional Biblical qualifiers: not marrying unbelievers, close relatives, etc. Also, it would be hard to justify two Christians who wanted to get married outside of their community of faith, as our confession make pretty clear the Biblical mandate for marriage to be a public covenant honored by all.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 27, 2009)

Mal 2:14 But you say, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though *she is your companion and your wife by covenant*.

Marriage is a "covenant of companionship." It is a social structure, a cultural artefact. There are obvious connections to religion, however it is not automatically a "religious" ceremony. Of course, if the non-Christian culture around basically abolishes marriage, they are committing suicide, and Christians are not obligated to kill their own society along with the pagans. So, Christians will have to preserve the cultural element even if everyone else is not. But that is a function of the _Christian,_ not the _Church._

The vital thing of any marriage declaration (hawever it is accomplished) are the public vows. As far as possible, we should desire that the rest of our society--however close or broadly that is defined--acknowledge our union, and hold us accountable. We are establishing a new "brick" in the edifice of society, one that will stand, one that will not crumble from within, so help us God.

So, Fraser, I would say do what you have to do to get married, and get recognition from the society in which you seek the marriage to occur. And if you move, then whatever you need to do to get recognition in the new situation, that is what you need to do. If you wish, have a "church wedding" later before a congregation. Nothing like that is illegitimate, but neither is it required somehow by the Bible.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 27, 2009)

One thing I think that is missing here is that the Bride is to given away by her father. I believe this is wrapped up in the 5th commandment and the fact that his daughter is his nakedness.

I am not sure I can back this up but there are implications laid out in the books of Moses that seem to imply this.

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 04:40:30 EST-----

I also found this....



Poimen said:


> According to OT law one is _betrothed _to their husband or wife to be (Deuteronomy 22; cf. Matthew 1:18) which includes the 'bride-price' (Exodus 22:15-16) paid to the father. This indicates a commitment on the part of the man, even a promise to leave his father and mother and cleave with his wife. And thus, by implication, we may speak of an oath to be taken on the part of the man if not the woman.
> 
> Was not even Christ wedded to His bride by an oath? Psalm 2:7-8


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the input. 

Just to be clear I am not planning on running away, I am just wondering what marriage requires. I will be unable to do all the formal things before a minister and a congregation but I havn't looked into whether something could happen afterward in semi-secret.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 27, 2009)

semi-secret? Is this marriage not being announced or some such?


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jan 27, 2009)

I mean there could be no open meeting of Christians, so I would need it performed at a civil ceremony in public, but then afterward if I wanted a minister to do anything it would have to be in semi-secret with only carefully selected guests in a small gathering that shouldn't be noticed.

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 11:10:44 EST-----

So I guess the question is: is a Christian such as myself married when the civil authorities say you are, or when you go before a minister.


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## TimV (Jan 27, 2009)

When you are PUBLICALLY pronounced married by the local civil authorities you are married. The same as any other contract.

You've said that you are in business, and that should help you set your mind at rest. Today I contracted with a man to plant 55 trees for a certain price. The deal is DONE. It's true that without an official contract recognized by the State I would have a harder time collecting if the guy didn't pay, but even in liberal California an oral contract legally made is still a contract. It's also true that until the deal is "consummated" there are lesser penalties for backing out.

It's less romantic that way, but at the end of the day there are good reasons that such contracts are entered into in the local customary way.

When Rev. Buchanan writes of a *cultural artifact*, he's being insightful as usual. The hammer and sickle or a picture of an exitinct California brown bear... it doesn't really matter.


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## satz (Jan 27, 2009)

TimV said:


> When you are PUBLICALLY pronounced married by the local civil authorities you are married. The same as any other contract.



I am more thinking aloud here than trying to argue a position, but what is the biblical basis for this? I am not aware of any bible verses that actual deal with this topic. 

In Genesis 24 there did not seem to be the need for any public ceremony or pronouncement for Issac and Rebekah to become married. It would appear to me that what is necessary is the private covenant of the man and woman before God. Of course, this should be undertaken in the context of the guidance of parents and church, and in the normal course of events, a public ceremony and vows should be used to fulfill propriety, but if there are extreme circumstances, I do not see how the bible necessitates such a requirement before a couple may become married.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 27, 2009)

Mark,
His point is: _there *isn't* a Bible verse,_ so do whatever the law tells you to do.


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## brianeschen (Jan 27, 2009)

satz said:


> It would appear to me that what is necessary is the private covenant of the man and woman before God.


How would you prove they were married in the first place . . . taken vows, etc? You need at least two witnesses according to the Bible.


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## satz (Jan 27, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> How would you prove they were married in the first place . . . taken vows, etc? You need at least two witnesses according to the Bible.



Where does the bible say you need two witnesses for any vow? I was under the impression (and ready to be corrected) that was for "court" cases in Israel.

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 11:54:57 EST-----



Contra_Mundum said:


> Mark,
> His point is: _there *isn't* a Bible verse,_ so do whatever the law tells you to do.



Thanks, that makes sense.

However, wouldn't that be more a case of fulfilling propriety, and submission to governmental authority rather than what actually makes the marriage legitimate?


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## TimV (Jan 28, 2009)

> Where does the bible say you need two witnesses for any vow? I was under the impression (and ready to be corrected) that was for "court" cases in Israel.



Read through Number chapter 30 carefully. A woman living in her father's house has to have her father's approval for a binding contract.


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## satz (Jan 28, 2009)

TimV said:


> Read through Number chapter 30 carefully. A woman living in her father's house has to have her father's approval for a binding contract.



Hi Tim,

I apologise, but I am confused as to what that as to do with either marriage or the need for two witnesses at any vow - in my first post I believe I did say that this covenant is made in the context of parental guidance (and hence authority).

Numbers 30 does not seem to say a woman needs her father's approval to enter into a contract, rather it gives the father (or husband) authority to annul a vow/oath/contract she makes. However, it does not say he must actively approve the vow, after all if he holds his peace, i.e. does nothing, the vow stands.

But again, I don't see what this has to do with the question of what makes a legitimate marriage...


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## brianeschen (Jan 28, 2009)

satz said:


> brianeschen said:
> 
> 
> > How would you prove they were married in the first place . . . taken vows, etc? You need at least two witnesses according to the Bible.
> ...


So if you had to go to court regarding some marriage issue . . . how would you establish that you were actually married in the first place. Would you simply be able to say, "God, my wife and I were there when we made our vows"?


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## TimV (Jan 28, 2009)

Mark has some views on the marriage vow that he summarizes here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/ethics-strange-question-concerning-marriage-38751/index2.html


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## satz (Jan 28, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> So if you had to go to court regarding some marriage issue . . . how would you establish that you were actually married in the first place. Would you simply be able to say, "God, my wife and I were there when we made our vows"?



The OP was asking what constituted a marriage, and was asked in the context of a situation when it may not be possible or safe to do things the normal way. I wondered if, given the example of Issac and Rebekah, it was possible to say that marriage can conducted as a private covenant and be legitimate in the sight of God.

I think I already said that in the general course of life, a public ceremony and vows should be performed.

-----Added 1/28/2009 at 09:48:18 EST-----



TimV said:


> Mark has some views on the marriage vow that he summarizes here:
> 
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/ethics-strange-question-concerning-marriage-38751/index2.html



I am not sure what that thread has to do with this one, or how the view I expressed there would affect my view on the issue in this thread...

(If I was wrong there, I would want to know, but no one anwered my questions, unless I missed something)


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## TimV (Jan 28, 2009)

> If I was wrong there, I would want to know, but no one anwered my questions, unless I missed something



Several answered your question from a Reformed, and I dare say an orthodox perspective as well, but you have a philosophy which seems to pit Law against Mercy, so you don't agree with the answers you got. And you're doing the same same thing here, as far as I can see. In both thread, dealing with the same principles, you make statements like



> In Genesis 24 there did not seem to be the need for any public ceremony or pronouncement for Issac and Rebekah to become married.



and assume that there was no public contract/covenant. And it boggles my mind that a young man so intelligent and well read can read the account you yourself cited and *CAN'T* see a traditional, public marriage contract was made. So I have to assume there's something else that's bothering you.



> Gen 24:33 Then food was set before him to eat. But he said, "I will not eat until I have said what I have to say." He said, "Speak on."
> Gen 24:34 So he said, "I am Abraham's servant.
> Gen 24:35 The LORD has greatly blessed my master, and he has become great. He has given him flocks and herds, silver and gold, male servants and female servants, camels and donkeys.
> Gen 24:36 And Sarah my master's wife bore a son to my master when she was old, and to him he has given all that he has.
> ...



And part of the dowery



> Gen 24:52 When Abraham's servant heard their words, he bowed himself to the earth before the LORD.
> Gen 24:53 And the servant brought out jewelry of silver and of gold, and garments, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave to her brother and to her mother costly ornaments.
> Gen 24:54 And he and the men who were with him ate and drank, and they spent the night there. When they arose in the morning, he said, "Send me away to my master."


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## Wanderer (Jan 28, 2009)

This is an issue that I have given some great thought to over the years. 

It seems the main issue is, does the couple in question hold themselves out to be married. Meaning that at some time they needed to demonstrate to witnesses that there intent is to be married. And once this is done they are. End of story!

Whether they are in the sight of the Civil Magistrates is another story. One could be married, and for some oversight the Civil Magistrates do not view you has being marriage. Maybe the check you used to pay for the marriage license bounced. Who knows. But recognition by Civil Magistrates I do not believe is to be a requirement, though a Christian could be harming his wittiness to the World in that people might be seeing the couple as living in sin if they didn't do all reasonable customary things in order to be *publically* recognized as being married.



I take my argument back to Genesis:

Did Adam and Eve have to obtain a wedding license?

Wasn't Issac married to his wife, once he took her into the tent?

As far as Jewish customs, my understanding is that the thing that showed that a couple was married was acceptance of the bride price and the sealing of the contract before a public ceremony.

So my argument is thus, if a couple takes vows before others, and says they are married, they are indeed married. 

As to the state, Christians are to obey the state as long as obeying the state does not cause them to break God's commands. So if the state requires a marriage license, and you be married before a civil magistrate or a licensed preacher, pay your twelve dollars and be happy that the state didn't require much more.

If the state forbids marriage, this is clearly against Gods law. Get a preacher or someone to be a master of ceremony of sorts, say your vows before others and be married. But at the same time, be prepared to suffer any punishment that the state might inflict upon you for being married. And if you are asked if you are married, do not lie.......

Marriage was given to man by God. The state may reasonably regulate it, but they can't take it away......

One other thing. I would STRONGLY advise that all couples follow the Jewish Custom and draft up PRENUP and or POSTNUPS. States in the US are rapidly redefining what it is to be married, marital responsibilities, and changing the laws on divorce. Christians need to have the bible define what marriage is, and what grounds it may it be dissolved and how property is owned. Also, with our society becoming ever so more egalitarian a man can now easily be accused for rape,abuse, controlling behavior, and so forth even though he is perfectly in line with God's word. Remember, we live in a sinful world, and the angle that you married could get tainted with sin and turn on you. Ya need to have some rock solid promises. At one time society firmed up the promises, but with 75% of all marriages ending up in a divorce, and there be no difference in percentage wise between Christians and not Christian marriages, a firm agreement of what marriage is, and how it can be or can not be dissolved is an important thing to have in a contract. Otherwise your wife will be constantly enticed by the state and other to divorce you since the women is clearly in the advantage when the matter goes to court. No matter how perfect of a husband your are, and how bad of a wife she was....


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## satz (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Tim,

I think I see what you mean and I admit I missed that - I was focusing (maybe too much) on v65-67 when Issac and Rebekah just seemed to meet and head into the tent.

Its bedtime here, I'll see if I have anything worthwhile to add in the morn.


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## reformed trucker (Jan 29, 2009)

"What makes marriage?" (op)

A covenant... ending only by death.

The rest is legal formalities and trappings of men.


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