# new harry potter book



## Reed (Jul 18, 2005)

Can anyone understand why this latest harry potter book is so popular? Is the writing in these books any good? Are they good stories? I can't understand all the hype...


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 18, 2005)

never read them, but I know from the mass appeal of left behind books, that anything is possible. heck i have about 9 left behind books at home.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2005)

The so-called occultic content aside, the writing is superb. Say what you will about the "witchcraft" in it, the story lines are brilliant beyond comparison.


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## Reed (Jul 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> The so-called occultic content aside, the writing is superb. Say what you will about the "witchcraft" in it, the story lines are brilliant beyond comparison.



Whoa! High praise indeed! -- you're saying brilliant compared to all genres or just compared to other fantasy/ficition?
Reed

[Edited on 7-18-2005 by Reed]


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2005)

Consider that most fantasy is written to pubescent adoloscents who want nothing more than to read stories of violence and sex. Harry Potter has neither. Honestly, if my child were having trouble with animal sacrifices, etc. I would probably caution against reading it.

consider this old thread
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=11778#pid169888

Ex Nihilo had written:



> Honestly, the biggest thing we can draw from the Harry Potter phenomenon (because, as you pointed out by mentioning your boredom, I don't think it can be fully explained by the books themselves) is how desperate people are for a good/evil hero narrative. We have one that's much better.



Then I rejoined:



> And we take that Universal need for a good/evil fairy tale and immediately move to apologetics/evangelism. We say, "You like this narrative don't you? It touches something inside you that transcends you but you don't know what it is, right? In some way or another you like fairy tales. You might not call them that, but the same point is still there. Can I tell you about the Fairy Tale that Came True?" And then, having memorized Greg Bahnsen's Sermon: Greg Bahnsen's Sermon: The Fairy Tale that Came True, I open the discussion.[


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 18, 2005)

I've read them all up to the point of the most recent. I can, personally, set aside the "occultic" elements and look at the larger story (good v. evil). Those who object to the books based solely on this often fail to see the inconsistency in their position of hating Potter but loving Tolkein or the C.S. Lewis.

In any eveny, I will say that as the series has progressed, not only have the books become longer, but they have also become darker, more pessimistic, and more violent. Sorcerer's Stone is a light-hearted romp, compared to the dark anger and violence of Order of the Phoenix.


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## Craig (Jul 18, 2005)

They are very good stories...I'm two books behind.

I'd encourage anyone to peruse the adolescent section of a Barnes and Noble: what is truly dangerous and perverse there? It's not the fiction ala Potter...it's the books pretending to be about young adult life and reflects horrible sins: gossip, premarital sex, cursing, etc.

The Harry Potter books, while certainly not Christian, are worthy of being read.

It's especially fun to read them as a Calvinist...to me, any non-reformed folk are Muggles


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> 
> 
> It's especially fun to read them as a Calvinist...to me, any non-reformed folk are Muggles



That is so profileing!!!!!!!!!
LOL, I hear that.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 18, 2005)

I think I have read one of them.

The story was captivating and kept you interested although the magic failed to have much internal logic and so lost some 'believability' (that can be good and bad).

The telling of the story was good although for English grammar puritans I would have some doubts about how much you will like it.

Want I want are some good Reformed writers to start writing books like this (with better moral but not overtly Christian content) that a) get kids reading b) gets them thinking about matters concerning good and evil etc... c) is of a high enough quality to endure. Tolkien and C.S Lewis are good enough although they are not Reformed.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are in luck, my friend
Binding of the Blade

Published by the illustrious P & R Publishing.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 18, 2005)

wow I never heard of them before. They look interesting. I am just reading through the authors "reflections" and you can see how the stories are influenced by his worldview in some way or another.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> They are very good stories...I'm two books behind.
> 
> I'd encourage anyone to peruse the adolescent section of a Barnes and Noble: what is truly dangerous and perverse there? It's not the fiction ala Potter...it's the books pretending to be about young adult life and reflects horrible sins: gossip, premarital sex, cursing, etc.



I've been saddened to see a friend of mine, who was raised in a conservative Christian household, come to accept homosexuality because of young adult books than portrayed it sympathetically.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 18, 2005)

Yes most people do not realise how subtil these influences can be and they do not change you in an instant. I have had times when I have been shocked how much I have changed through reading etc... and I can trace back where I have got weird ideas from. It is not that they convince you these things are true. It is that they make you sympathetic to the ideas themselves.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> Yes most people do not realise how subtil these influences can be and they do not change you in an instant. I have had times when I have been shocked how much I have changed through reading etc... and I can trace back where I have got weird ideas from. It is not that they convince you these things are true. It is that they make you sympathetic to the ideas themselves.



Precisely. My friend, for instance, readily admits that she can't intellectually defend her position nor reconcile it with her belief in the Bible (actually, I think her belief in the inerrancy of the Bible may have been damaged by this), but she still "feels like it isn't wrong." The most dangerous arguments are the ones that are never out in the open, but whose conclusions are assumed to be true. It's a blatant attack on the presuppositions that underly the gospel, and even if they don't cause a young person to abandon the faith, they can certainly corrupt doctrine.

In case any parents are curious, I believe that the author most to blame in my friend's case is Francesca Lia Block. And though I'm not sure if she deals with homosexuality, Tamora Pierce seems dangerous, as well; she is certainly not a Christian and (according to reports) has many characters involved in premarital sex. Tamora Pierce also has dangerous and downright idiotic ideas about the genders and about women in combat.

[Edited on 7-19-2005 by Ex Nihilo]


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## matt01 (Jul 18, 2005)

When the first book came out I was of the persuasion that the books were inherently bad--that they idealized witchcraft and all of that other garbage. I began to read them in order to prove my point. Now, as I begin the read the most recent publication ("...Half-Blood Prince"), I have changed my view somewhat. I won't say that they are the same as "The Lion, the witch..." or "Lord of the Rings...", but I will say that they are interesting reading. Rowling does have the ability to craft very interesting stories, keeping people from a number of generations interested. 

Whether or not I would allow my son or daughter to read them would depend on the maturity of the child--as with reading Lewis or Tolkien. A young child who might become enamored in the "witchcraft" and "spell-casting" would probably not be allowed, while a child who could take the whole and sift out the good would probably be able to read them.


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## Plimoth Thom (Jul 18, 2005)

My wife was introduced to these books in a elementary ed. class she took in college, and became interested in them. I tried reading the first one and was extemely bored with it. Because of the subject matter (I've never really been interested in magic or science fiction), and because I strongly believe it was poorly written and at an elementary level.

If I'm going to read fiction, I'd rather read Joseph Conrad or Kenneth Roberts. Really any classic literature, over this stuff.


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 19, 2005)

> I tried reading the first one and was extemely bored with it.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 19, 2005)

*You wana couple good books?*

*Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick*






*White Fang by Jack London*


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 19, 2005)

For all you greek students out there, I notice that the first Harry Potter book has just been published specially in ancient greek...

Pity its not koine....

JH


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## LawrenceU (Jul 19, 2005)

Do these books really warrant the precious time that God has given us? I fail to understand why any Christian would waste his time on such drivel. Yes, I've read some of it after I was challenged about my stance; and came away even more convinced that they have no place in the life of a Christian or his children. Why expose any of our children or ourselves to a book that is written with a base line theme of something that is detestable to God?


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 19, 2005)

No, Lawrence, tell us what you really think...


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## Ivan (Jul 19, 2005)

Never read Potter or Left Behind...never will.


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## Reed (Jul 19, 2005)

Here's some good Reformed juvenile fiction:

Duncan's War 
King's Arrow 
by Douglas Bond

review at:

http://www.homeschooltoday.com/articles/book_reviews/duncans_war.php


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Do these books really warrant the precious time that God has given us? I fail to understand why any Christian would waste his time on such drivel. Yes, I've read some of it after I was challenged about my stance; and came away even more convinced that they have no place in the life of a Christian or his children. Why expose any of our children or ourselves to a book that is written with a base line theme of something that is detestable to God?



One could argue that the PB is a waste of precious time...yet here we are...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Here's some good Reformed juvenile fiction:
> 
> Duncan's War
> ...



 Also, G.A. Henty historical fiction or Inheritance Publications Huguenot historical fiction.


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## Reed (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm sure some of you have seen this cartoon in Todd Wilson's homeschooling cartoon book:

Mom and kid are walking by cinema marquee with Harry Potter 

Kid says:

"Why would any one want to see a movie about an guy who makes earthenware and needs a hair cut?"


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## Craig (Jul 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> ...


Word.

I'll tell you why it's worthy of spending time reading: 
We are human beings and we like stories...and this is a good one. I will read them for the same reason I drink Miller High Life: It's quite good!


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## BobVigneault (Jul 20, 2005)

Craig!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You had better be joking brother!
If you are drinking Miller when Bell's Kalamazoo Stout is right there in your back yard then you have a COMPLETE lack of discernment and your argument falls flatter than a Miller High Life left open for 3 days in the hot sun. Come on Craig, life is too short to drink bad, cheap beer.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 20, 2005)

> One could argue that the PB is a waste of precious time...yet here we are...



Sometimes it is, especially in some threads. But, you are comparing two distinctly different usages of time. This board is set up discuss the Word of God and its application in the life of the Christian. HP books are anything but that.

Craig, your logic is miscongruant. Because we are human and like good stories? Come now. Yes, we are human; but, that is actually liability. We will if not controlled by the Spirit of Christ inevitably choose poorly. Liking good stories is not a reason to read one that contains such themes as are offensive to God. There are multitudes of 'good stories', well written, with fabulous plots that of no use in the life of a Christian.


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Do these books really warrant the precious time that God has given us? I fail to understand why any Christian would waste his time on such drivel. Yes, I've read some of it after I was challenged about my stance; and came away even more convinced that they have no place in the life of a Christian or his children. Why expose any of our children or ourselves to a book that is written with a base line theme of something that is detestable to God?



I can't say it loudly enough! AMEN! 

as I read through the replies up to this point (will go back and read more) the scripture "and they shall call evil good" came through my spirit! It is so grievous that Christians so easily "set aside" the "occult" in such things. LIke watching tv, "I just bypass the sexual scenes for the story behind it." ARGH>! 

Guard your heart! The time is at hand! REDEEM THE TIME! 

And yes, I will say the same thing about the Left behind series, and the Lion the witch and the wardrobe series! What blasphemy!


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## Reed (Jul 20, 2005)

Not to be "Puritanical," but why would any one want to read something that celebrates what God abhors?

I find the fascination with the occult similar to the progression our culture made from humorous sexual innuendo to explicit, overt sexuality and celebration of fornication in the span of our life time -- remember when we were kids the movie Grease was pretty risque? Compare that to what's on at 7:00 PM on any tv show and Grease looks like Little House on the Prairie! I think this is the way interest in the occult is going. Our culture is titillated with hairy potter now and in twenty years human sacrifices will be the in thing...


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Not to be "Puritanical," but why would any one want to read something that celebrates what God abhors?
> 
> I find the fascination with the occult similar to the progression our culture made from humorous sexual innuendo to explicit, overt sexuality and celebration of fornication in the span of our life time -- remember when we were kids the movie Grease was pretty risque? Compare that to what's on at 7:00 PM on any tv show and Grease looks like Little House on the Prairie! I think this is the way interest in the occult is going. Our culture is titillated with hairy potter now and in twenty years human sacrifices will be the in thing...



For apologetic reasons. I answered this elsewhere on the thread.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Craig!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> You had better be joking brother!
> If you are drinking Miller when Bell's Kalamazoo Stout is right there in your back yard then you have a COMPLETE lack of discernment and your argument falls flatter than a Miller High Life left open for 3 days in the hot sun. Come on Craig, life is too short to drink bad, cheap beer.



Not to get off-subject, but is Keyston and Old Milwaulkee good, quality beers?


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Not to be "Puritanical," but why would any one want to read something that celebrates what God abhors?
> 
> I find the fascination with the occult similar to the progression our culture made from humorous sexual innuendo to explicit, overt sexuality and celebration of fornication in the span of our life time -- remember when we were kids the movie Grease was pretty risque? Compare that to what's on at 7:00 PM on any tv show and Grease looks like Little House on the Prairie! I think this is the way interest in the occult is going. Our culture is titillated with hairy potter now and in twenty years human sacrifices will be the in thing...


IT'S CALLED DESENSITIZATION! (not meaning to overuse the term!) But isn't that how Satan gets his hooks into us?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Reed_
> ...



Whatever you want to criticize HP for, sexuality is not one of them. Let's make sure we get our criticisms right. It makes our arguments that much stronger.

BTW, can you show me the chapters and page numbers where the human sacrifices take place in Harry Potter?

[Edited on 7--20-05 by Draught Horse]


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> 
> 
> > One could argue that the PB is a waste of precious time...yet here we are...
> ...



Oh, I agree. It's just a tough sell to my wife sometimes, who views this as "wasting time."


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## Reed (Jul 20, 2005)

I'm just trying to make a correlation between one form of sin and another form of sin -- my correlation was explicite sexual content on primetime TV started as subtle innuendo and has progressed to blatant in your face examples and demonstation.

In the same way the increase in occultism will be tied to the introduction and acceptance of HP until eventually witchcraft is a normal and celebrated part of our culture.

There are already wicken chaplains in our military!

Reed


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> I'm just trying to make a correlation between one form of sin and another form of sin -- my correlation was explicite sexual content on primetime TV started as subtle innuendo and has progressed to blatant in your face examples and demonstation.
> 
> In the same way the increase in occultism will be tied to the introduction and acceptance of HP until eventually witchcraft is a normal and celebrated part of our culture.
> ...



You are playing "connect the dots" and are stretching your case too far. Furthermore, correlation does not necessarily = causation. 

I don't get it. Wicked chaplains,perhaps. But what does taht have to do with the thread?


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

> You are playing "connect the dots" and are stretching your case too far. Furthermore, correlation does not necessarily = causation.
> 
> I don't get it. Wicked chaplains,perhaps. But what does that have to do with the thread?



I disagree, it's not mere "connecting the dots" but rather stating facts. As the TV, movies, music all have gone from the hint of sexual conduct to outright sexual content so to has satan begun to infiltrate, move beyond the senses into the spiritual realm to captivate the audience with his tactics. The tv, radio, movies are SCREAMING with occult activities, as do the series of this thread. They have brought it into shows like law and order more than once, where the villian was of some cult or another. But what's worse is it's moved further, to where the entire series is about such, Medium, Lost just to name a couple,. There's a new one coming out this season though I forget it's name. So, to bring out how the sexual content of the media has gone from "short shorts" to outright nudity is not far fetched in the argument that the agenda behind the puker series is to introduce, or further bring home the acceptance of the occult activities. 

Psalm 19 speaks of the sin of presumption. To presume it ok to view, read, hear, listen to, speak, meditate or any other form things that go against scripture and truth is a sin. When we allow these things into our mind we are conforming to the world rather than transforming by the renewing of our mind. Rom 12. See not, taste not, speak not that which is unbecoming to Christ.

In all things that we do ought to give God the Glory. So, if you can explain how reading such garbage is glorifying God than perhaps I may change my mind. But since I am confident that you can not do so, I stand firm on the foundation of Christ.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 20, 2005)

Pharisees are not people to immitate.


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

Paul, I agree, and I noticed that wth Moby dick. My son enjoys Huck Finn, and I've taken a stand on that as well. If your child is into this series, and you read it in order to show them where it goes against God's word, that's one thing, but to just read it and soak in it's trash is dangerous ground and also flirting with the devil. So this slippery slope only stands if someone holds to one and against another! 

When David saw bashiba he didn't just see her and take her, no, more like he kept looking, first was a "peek" then it turned to lust, which eventually turned to adultury and murder. I'm sure it was not David's intention to ever murder the guy when he first looked upon bashiba, but one thing leads to another.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> 
> 
> > You are playing "connect the dots" and are stretching your case too far. Furthermore, correlation does not necessarily = causation.
> ...



That's nice, but you end up proving too much. How many hear saw Revenge of the Sith? End of debate. Revenge of the Sith is about as dark as Harry Potter (remember many of you Potter critics, you don't exactly *know* how dark Harry Potter is) and has MUCH, MUCH more violence, and much worse acting and story line.

Why do you keep bringing up the sexual content part? Harry Potter has none in it, at least, all the books until now and I haven't finished this one.

You say that when we "wallow" in it we are being decieved, or whatever. You are probably correct, but for your case to stand you woudl have to find which comments from me suggesting that. There are none and there are quite a few comments suggesting that I read it for apologetic reasons.


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

Um, Jake, FYI, I've also taken alot of flack from the folks here for my stand AGAINST the Star Wars movies! IT too has a lot of cultic theologies taught in it "the force". (And please don't go into "the force of good and evil"). 

And I never said that Harry puker has any sexual content, I was saying it's cult! Satanic! WITCHCRAFT! I was merely using the correlation of how the media has gone from simple things like kissing to full fledged nudity and sexual acts to compare to what's going on in the cultish world, in that they are robbing the minds of all who let it soak into their brains! And yes, just casual reading it DOES get into your mind! 

So, my dear Jake, My case does stand!


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> Um, Jake, FYI, I've also taken alot of flack from the folks here for my stand AGAINST the Star Wars movies! IT too has a lot of cultic theologies taught in it "the force". (And please don't go into "the force of good and evil").
> 
> And I never said that Harry puker has any sexual content, I was saying it's cult! Satanic! WITCHCRAFT! I was merely using the correlation of how the media has gone from simple things like kissing to full fledged nudity and sexual acts to compare to what's going on in the cultish world, in that they are robbing the minds of all who let it soak into their brains! And yes, just casual reading it DOES get into your mind!
> ...



Perhaps. Point granted that you did take a stand against Star Wars. I have no doubt that casual reading could get into your mind, except i am not reading this casually. I have made it clear that whenever I read any type of literature, apologetics is in the back of my mind. That being the case, my mind is quite active in what I read.

Anyway, as bad as witchcraft is, Harry Potter is not a perfect analogy to modern day practices of witchcraft.

Also, is Lord of the Rings wrong? I mean, it doesnt mention Jesus anywhere and some characters do appear to have magical powers.


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## default (Jul 20, 2005)

Again, I do not like Lord of the Rings and yes, I've seen some of the movie and also read some of the book (BECAUSE I have a 15 yr old who is actively interested!) It too has witchcraft in it! I guess I don't like this even more so than the Puker series because it has been so readily accepted by the vast majority of the religous realm. 

Like arminiasm, with this many people accept it as truth because it's what they want to believe, not because Scripture proves it. so too, the Lord of the Rings has a lot of cultish activities in it yet people are blinded to it. 

I am NOT against entertainment, but I am against filling the mind will vanity!


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## Larry Hughes (Jul 20, 2005)

> For apologetic reasons


 and to capture every thought to Christ. Unbelieving thoughts ignored and unaddressed tend to linger and fester until defeated!

Jacob, 

Exactly. Blind ignorance is why the church was side swiped by evolution post-darwin and much scientific thought. It has taken many many decades for the church to catch up. And too many so called "calvinist" tend to forget that before regeneration that a man is totally depraved. ANYTHING will and can become a door way to further denial of the truth (that is the nature of total depravity) - it doesn't have to be Harry Potter. 

Jesus told the Pharisees, "You read the Scriptures and think that by them you have eternal life, but it are these that continually bear witness of me." Fallen man even uses the word of God to proffer his supression of God and Christ. Not to mention God's creation for the same end.

Gabe, BTW, I agree!

L


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> Again, I do not like Lord of the Rings and yes, I've seen some of the movie and also read some of the book (BECAUSE I have a 15 yr old who is actively interested!) It too has witchcraft in it! I guess I don't like this even more so than the Puker series because it has been so readily accepted by the vast majority of the religous realm.
> 
> Like arminiasm, with this many people accept it as truth because it's what they want to believe, not because Scripture proves it. so too, the Lord of the Rings has a lot of cultish activities in it yet people are blinded to it.
> ...



Hey...I was checking my concordance...and I found witchcraft in 1 Samuel... Maybe I should cut it out and burn it a la Jefferson.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 20, 2005)

The Potter books draw far more from "regular" paganism--Greek, Roman, and Celtic mythology--than from real witchcraft-related folklore. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing a book like Harry Potter, but witchcraft, as it is depicted in the books, is not similar to Wicca or other contemporary witchcraft practices. It is quite vague in nature and can only be performed by those who are born with the talent. It is, essentially, a natural force and is not spiritual in nature. It relates more to medieval superstitions. I'm certainly not suggesting they are harmless, but implying that they are always a gateway for Satanism is like implying that alcohol is always a gateway to drunkenness. 

With few exceptions, the books do not describe rituals or processes of magic. They are far more about characters and their actions in a world where the rules of nature as they are in our world can be violated. A person is certainly not going to learn how to do real-world Wiccan spells by reading the books. 

Reading the books, I think, comes down to a matter of individual conscience. I can see how the books could be a problem for unbelievers, but there could be a legitimate apologetic purpose for (some) believers to read them, and, as Larry says, to take the ideas captive and measure them against the Word of God. And, as Craig French has said, they are good stories and can (In my humble opinion) perhaps help in learning to appreciate more fully our much better Christian narrative.



> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> Also, one could say this about almost any non-Christian piece of literature. Moby Dick, for example, is a story of *revenge and hate.* Revenge and hate is anti-Christian, we have redemption and love.



I was thinking of Moby Dick myself, which depicts practices that are actually much more similar to real-world witchcraft (from what little I know of it). A very disturbing book on many levels, but not without literary merit. I find it particularly interesting to read it for the purpose of having an imaginary dialogue with Melville about the underlying ideology. (Yes, that probably sounds odd...) If I'm not mistaken, it's one of R.C. Sproul's favorite books.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Consider that most fantasy is written to pubescent adoloscents who want nothing more than to read stories of violence and sex. Harry Potter has neither. Honestly, if my child were having trouble with animal sacrifices, etc. I would probably caution against reading it.
> 
> consider this old thread
> ...



I thought that reposting this would get my point across. Evie said it better than anything I could have said. Yes, Moby Dick is one of RC's favorite books. We can draw two deductions from this:
1) Sproul has abandoned the faith.

OR

2) Secular literature can be used for good purposes.

3)Sproul has not abandoned the faith,
Therefore,
-------------------------------------------------
4)Secular literature can be used for good purposes.
5)Harry Potter is secular literature;
6)therefore, Harry Potter can be used for good purposes.

my line of reasoning was
Disjunctive syllogism (1 OR 2)
Deny 2,
Affirm 1.
Modus Ponens (4,5,6)

[Edited on 7--20-05 by Draught Horse]


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## Craig (Jul 20, 2005)

While I won't waste time defending my love of Miller High Life, I do think the parallel I made stands.

This could become a huge tangent, so I'll mention it in passing:
I think story-making many times is our way of understanding the Fall and our relation to the universe and our responsibilities when it comes to ethics. Themes like these exist in the Potter series. Far from vanity, these are crucial issues and actually affirm certain standards of right and wrong. The magic is a means, not an ends...and isn't central to the storyline.

Seeing, as I do at least, that story telling/making is part of our way of understanding human nature, the concern isn't so much "is there magic in the story", but what is its purpose? When asking these, the irrelevant points about the stories being vanity falls flat. Far more vain are books relating to design (whether fashion, home improvements, etc) than a series like HP. Who immerses themselves in the latest PC magazines, or Time, or People? This is truly vanity. Harry Potter delves into dark, but necessary themes. 

Many may disagree with my premise about the origin of story telling, but it makes sense. How do we come to understanding God and the world around us? Many times through anthropomorphism and...in short, these are typically untrue at face value yet convey the truth nonetheless, and typically the truth is conveyed in a more penetrating, and dare I say _more truthfull_ way? Stories are how we come to grips with experience. What deals more honestly with human experience? A story involving magic? How about a dancing bear? Either of these can be vain, but given a context there may be something valuable in their use.

Lets go a step further...who here has ever sat down with an older person to hear a string of stories you're just about sure never really happened? Was your sitting there utter vanity? Did you learn anything about the person while listening? Do you feel you wasted your time?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> While I won't waste time defending my love of Miller High Life, I do think the parallel I made stands.
> 
> This could become a huge tangent, so I'll mention it in passing:
> ...



Check out this awesome article by Brian Godawa showing how we can use themes like Craig just mentioned for delving into the real issues. 

PS: This is not to say that Godawa would necessarily agree with HP, but I think his article is most helpful.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> While I won't waste time defending my love of Miller High Life, I do think the parallel I made stands.
> 
> This could become a huge tangent, so I'll mention it in passing:
> I think story-making many times is our way of understanding the Fall and our relation to the universe and our responsibilities when it comes to ethics. Themes like these exist in the Potter series. Far from vanity, these are crucial issues and actually affirm certain standards of right and wrong. The magic is a means, not an ends...and isn't central to the storyline.





Very well stated. The Potter books are not about magic; they contain magic as part of the setting. They are about characters. 

And excellent point about how literature helps us understand the Fall. (I think this is a central theme of _Hamlet_, for instance.) And at the same time, an understanding of the Fall helps us understand literature.

Whatever you make of the appropriateness of such stories, the popularity of fantasy literature is (in addition to an illustration of our need for narrative) evidence of our longing for a world that is something more, something better than this one now is--what this one ought to have been.

[Edited on 7-21-2005 by Ex Nihilo]


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## LawrenceU (Jul 20, 2005)

> Pharisees are not people to immitate.



Advocation of biblical discernment in lifestyle is not Phariseeism.

Loriann, I applaud your stance.

Fellows, drawing a connection between HP books and Moby Dick is ludicrous. The two do not even compare to one another. And, despite the statment of Evie, I know several wiccans who absolutely love the HP books for several reasons. Among them are: they make those who pracitce magick more palatable to the modern culture (Loriann's argument about wiccan chaplains falls here.) they although not perfectly do expose their world view, and (their words here) 'function as a great door into the reality of the unseen world'.

Please here me, the nature of my ministry has put me in contact with many people over the year who for a variety of reason have been damaged by occultic activities. Except of three people that I can recall, none of them began their involvement with a decided step. Deception opened the door. Funny thing about deception; you don't recognise it until it is too late.


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## fredtgreco (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 4)Secular literature can be used for good purposes.
> 5)Harry Potter is secular literature;
> 6)therefore, Harry Potter can be used for good purposes.
> ...



Sorry Jacob,

This is severely flawed reasoning. It makes all secular literature equal - which it is not.


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## fredtgreco (Jul 20, 2005)

How about if it is just severly rotten writing?

After reading some of this, I wanted to vomit.


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## Craig (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> How about if it is just severly rotten writing?
> 
> After reading some of this, I wanted to vomit.


I don't think it's severely rotten writing...I wouldn't put it in the category of literature, but I wouldn't call it severely rotten.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

Pastor Lawrence: I understand your words of caution. I can assure you that I am not into Wicca. Working as a Dorm Adviser and Resident Assistant to college students, I too, have delt with people who have destroyed their lives on wicca. I am not unaware of the dangers.

Honestly, yall are acting like I am sacrificing goats right now and drinking their blood. If you really want to get down to it, Star Wars has the potential to be ten times more dangerous. But no, nobody (or few, anyway) take offense at Star Wars just because (fill in blank). HOnestly, there is even a religion called "jediism". Only a few people got their feathers ruffled when Revenge of the Sith came out. Why the double standard? Force or magic? Half a dozen with one or six with the other?


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## Craig (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> 
> 
> > Pharisees are not people to immitate.
> ...


I appreciate keeping temptation at bay, and being discerning...I just don't think that these books are "gateway" books to the occult. 

It's like saying old school Carman rap songs were gateways to smacking promiscuous women while drinking malt liquor from a paper bag because of the lifestyle associated with rap music.

***just to be clear: I'm not a Carman fan...anymore.

[Edited on 7-21-2005 by Craig]


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Fellows, drawing a connection between HP books and Moby Dick is ludicrous. The two do not even compare to one another.



In one sense, no, they do not. HP mixes some vaguely Christian values with overtly pagan mythology. Moby Dick is explicitly and rather violentlly anti-Christian and particularly anti-Calvinist. (Although it does contain descriptions of pagan worship and practices and a very disturbing scene involving the collection of all the crew members' blood onto a harpoon, which is then baptized in the name of the devil.)



> And, despite the statment of Evie, I know several wiccans who absolutely love the HP books for several reasons. Among them are: they make those who pracitce magick more palatable to the modern culture



And this is something to be careful of. If one does read the books for whatever reason, one should make sure that it doesn't cause any softened stance whatsoever on the despicable practice of witchcraft. And I would certainly advise that anyone who begins to feel anything less than outright condemnation of real-world witchcraft should stop reading the books. I'm not really attempting to defend the books for everyone; I'm simply taking the position that this is a matter of individual conscience. I would not attempt to persuade someone who had convictions against it to read the books. 

For people who do choose to read something like HP, we have to be very careful to draw lines somewhere. I'm not open to reading just anything. I was once reading a fantasy novel that had descriptions of magical practices that included cutting oneself and using this process of self-wounding to perform magic. I felt extremely uncomfortable with this and had to stop reading the book--it was waaay too much like real-world witchcraft. I say this to explain that I understand why some strongly object to HP, but I do feel it can be read without tempting a person to engage in Wicca. (After all, as I've said before, the books contain little description of magical processes.) People have to be willing to read with _constant_ discernment and to put the book down if necessary. And for some, this might mean never picking the book up to begin with.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2005)

Last post on HP: I am going to repost this from earlier in the thread.




> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Consider that most fantasy is written to pubescent adoloscents who want nothing more than to read stories of violence and sex. Harry Potter has neither. Honestly, if my child were having trouble with animal sacrifices, etc. I would probably caution against reading it.
> 
> consider this old thread
> ...



Yeah, even using apologetics I can get sucked in by the magic of Harry Potter (no pun intended). Sure, I understand. I don't lose any sleep over it. I mean, if my presuppositonal, transcendental worldview can't handle Harry Potter, we ought to throw in the towel now. If my Van Tillian reasoning can't then construct an apologetic scenario and immediately move into evangelism, I mean, do we just talk apologetics in the safe confines of Puritanboard or do we go to the streets with it? When I read secular literature I am always thinking about apologetics and evangelism.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Honestly, yall are acting like I am sacrificing goats right now and drinking their blood. If you really want to get down to it, Star Wars has the potential to be ten times more dangerous. But no, nobody (or few, anyway) take offense at Star Wars just because (fill in blank). HOnestly, there is even a religion called "jediism". Only a few people got their feathers ruffled when Revenge of the Sith came out. Why the double standard? Force or magic? Half a dozen with one or six with the other?



Well, I don't know about ten times more dangerous--however, the Jedi religion in the Star Wars films very closely resembles Zen Buddhism. In fact, most practitioners of Jediism consider it a form of Zen Buddhism. All of these things are more dangerous for unbelievers, of course, because they don't have the truth to help them discern.

And, of course, Lucas doesn't claim to be a Christian at all, while Rowling (to many people's increased offense) does... But I think this is why Star Wars presents more of a relativistic ethic and HP is _usually_ (though not as often as I'd like!!) better about portraying good and evil as real, distinct entities. If you'll notice, however, and this is part of the reason I do read the books, I immensely enjoy analyzing the underlying ideology of both series... 

This question presents itself: Should we be willing to read books with pagan ideologies? As I've made clear in this thread, I am, but with certain limitations. After all, some pretty great stuff has been written from a pagan worldview. I imagine most people here are willing to read Homer and recognize their ability to do so without becoming polytheists. I see it as a matter of discerning the point at which one's own morals and beliefs would actually be negatively shaped by the literature, and this includes the point at which we become comfortable with a particular sin--even if we think we would never commit it. After all, comfort with the act precedes the act itself in most cases. And this is precisely what we have to be careful of in literature. Can you read _Anna Karenina_ without becoming comfortable with adultery? If not, you should avoid it.

Don't forget that many, if not most, of the people who object to HP (such as Loriann) also object to Star Wars. And I appreciate the consistency in this stance.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> I see it as a matter of discerning the point at which one's own morals and beliefs would actually be negatively shaped by the literature, and this includes the point at which we become comfortable with a particular sin--even if we think we would never commit it. After all, comfort with the act precedes the act itself in most cases. And this is precisely what we have to be careful of in literature. Can you read _Anna Karenina_ without becoming comfortable with adultery? If not, you should avoid it.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

One more point to address: I notice that most of the HP objectors are placing a heavy emphasis on the potential impact of the books on society as a whole. 

My stance on this is that the books may or may not have a negative impact on society as a whole. I think it will take some time and a lot of analysis to even begin to prove this point. As I've stated before, I have no doubt that they could be dangerous for some unbelievers.

However, even if this is true, what Jacob and Craig seem to be arguing is that HP may be safe for _some_ believers to read.

So, essentially, we have two different debates going on... And even if the point is conceded that it's harmful to society, what, really, can we do about it? We don't have the power to ban it or prevent unbelievers from reading it, so how do we best deal with the situation? How do we engage a pagan society? 

(And here, hopefully, is where Paul Manata steps in and does his thing.)


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> 
> 
> > Pharisees are not people to immitate.
> ...



Thank you Lawrance, But I'm not the one that was advocating the Wiccan chapplains!


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

Here is a sermon by Spurgeon on Presumption! PLEASE READ: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0022.htm


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

If one is to spend time reading, why not read something like A.W. Pink, Spurgeon or my ALL TIME FAVORITE William Gurnall? No, I'm not saying we are to be so closed off that we are no eartlhy good, or we don't know whats going on in the world today, BUT why the need to follow the world, do as they do, read as they print, view as they show? Why can we not be SANCTIFIED? Afterall, we are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Joshua 1:8 tells us to "meditate day and night." 

Wether one wishes to acknowledge the fact, the truth remains that that which we allow into our minds does get into the very pores and cells of the being.


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## fredtgreco (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> 
> However, even if this is true, what Jacob and Craig seem to be arguing is that HP may be safe for _some_ believers to read.




If this is true, then what do we say about the fact that the books are directed/marketed toward 9-12 year olds? Would you let you 9-12 year old read a graphic account of a Vietnam firefight?


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



excellent analysis. I never read the books myself, but my impression of them, is that they are an expanded type of the Enid Blyton books that I enjoyed reading.

Besides fairytales have endless magic. The whole Eurocentric culture, and all cultures in the world for a matter of fact is undergirded by tales of magic and fantasy, thereby, if Snow White, and Cinderella are to be enjoyed as innocent fun, so too does Harry Potter. If Ali Baba and Alladin are to be enjoyed, so too does Harry Potter.

Now there is a difference between reading of magic and practicing such. A difference between reading about spells and actually casting such spells.

[Edited on 7-21-2005 by Slippery]


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Honestly, yall are acting like I am sacrificing goats right now and drinking their blood.



Hmmmm do ya drink the blood of the first deer you kill in deer season? 



> If you really want to get down to it, Star Wars has the potential to be ten times more dangerous. But no, nobody (or few, anyway) take offense at Star Wars just because (fill in blank). HOnestly, there is even a religion called "jediism". Only a few people got their feathers ruffled when Revenge of the Sith came out. Why the double standard? Force or magic? Half a dozen with one or six with the other?



It is a double standard. Burrying our head in the sand and ignoring popular culture robs us of points of contact with the lost. "Spoiling the Egyptians" is a valid tool in engaging the world around us, something Paul did himself when he studied and used pagan literature. Obviously we could take it too far, but shouldn't be afraid of it. Evie mentioned Hamlet. From a literary standpoint there is no comparison between Shakespeare and Rowling, but consider the elements in Hamlet: murder, revengem deceit, witchcraft (!), communicating with the dead...Those elements aside, I would not discourage someone from reading it. I would, however, encourage them to read it with discernment.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Actually, they did ceremonially paint my face with blood. Kind of like a redneck rite of passage.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

you guys really live it up in Louisiana. The only rights of passage up north is using the subway by oneself.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> you guys really live it up in Louisiana. The only rights of passage up north is using the subway by oneself.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> you guys really live it up in Louisiana. The only rights of passage up north is using the subway by oneself.



That deer owed it to me to die. I spent too many hours in the stand that day. I nailed it right at dusk. I hit it in the neck and it was dead before it hit the ground. However, I was aiming for the shoulder.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> ...



And herein are the double (or at least inconsistent) standards exposed. Many parents who won't let their kids read HP will let them play violent video games or watch graphic movies. The eye gate is the eye gate but some don't see it that way.

Have you read the HP books, Fred? The first four were pretty innocent. I'm pretty sure I don't want my kids reading the fourth book (Order of Phoenix) for precisely the reasons you just mentioned. The issue is not so much content as age appropriateness. HP: OP, while written for 9-12 year olds is waaaaaaaaay to dark for that age group. There is no way I will let my 12 year old read Halfblood Prince before I screen it first, given the direction that OP was heading.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> That deer owed it to me to die...I hit it in the neck and it was dead before it hit the ground. However, I was aiming for the shoulder.



And THAT is why the South lost The War!


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Touche. I renounce all previous arguments.


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

KEVIN, that is precisely what I've been saying. I've been reading this posts as well as many others on other sites and my heart grieves for the Body of Christ, that we so easily and readily conform to their standards, way of thinking by reasoning within ourselves "it's all innocent" by convincing ourselves that that book, or half hour tv show of friends (or was it an hour, I dunno) or that movie is all good and will not effect us. IT DOES. Same thing with music! it soaks into us! 

So, if you think it's alright to take in things such as the puker series, may I ask then what it is you believe the passage "purify your hearts" means?


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> And THAT is why the South lost The War!


when they aim wrong, they hit the perfect spot, when they aim at the perfect spot, they hit the wrong spot


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> KEVIN, that is precisely what I've been saying. I've been reading this posts as well as many others on other sites and my heart grieves for the Body of Christ, that we so easily and readily conform to their standards, way of thinking by reasoning within ourselves "it's all innocent" by convincing ourselves that that book, or half hour tv show of friends (or was it an hour, I dunno) or that movie is all good and will not effect us. IT DOES. Same thing with music! it soaks into us!
> 
> So, if you think it's alright to take in things such as the puker series, may I ask then what it is you believe the passage "purify your hearts" means?



No, you haven't been reading what I have been posting. If I were to conform to the world's standards on this, I would be sacrificing goats right now (deer don't count). I would be dressing up my brothers and sisters and vampires and warlocks and casting evil spells on mean neighbors, but I am not doing that. 

And I realize that you have been more consistent on this point than most, but if we take the morality in HP and say, "we draw the line here," we end up proving too much. I know, and have never said, that Moby Dick or Hamlet are on the same quality level as HP. All I am saying is that if you compare what "goes on behind close doors" in all three books, HP is quite tame.

And quality? Let's go to movies. HP had much better acting than Stars Wars 2 and 3. Watching Anakin act was slightly better than getting kicked in a sensitive spot.

Lori, I know that you are more consistent on this than most on pB. Still, read what I say. I have never said that "it is just okay." There are dark and uncomfortable elements in it. But there are also dark and uncomfortable elements in real life as well. If we just shield ourselves and pretend that it doesn't exist, we paint a sentimental and utopian version of reality.

What about that great narrative of the Christian faith, Beowulf? That has monsters and slaughter galore, yet it is one of the finest poems in history?

What about Edmund Spenser, my personal favorite? CS Lewis claimed Spenser had more of an influence on him than any other. But read Spenser. You cannot read him without blushing, but this passes for "much needed ammo" in today's culture war, or so says World Mag columnist Gene Veith.


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## fredtgreco (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Kevin,

I agree that double standards are bad. That is why my kids do not do either.

Some of the first book was enough to convince me I was right that Rowling is just a bad writer with a good PR agent. The fact that I would have to read the books to screen them is enough to keep me from letting the kids read them. I'd rather write a paper on Frame.






[Edited on 7/21/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 21, 2005)

> I'd rather write a paper on Frame.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> KEVIN, that is precisely what I've been saying. I've been reading this posts as well as many others on other sites and my heart grieves for the Body of Christ, that we so easily and readily conform to their standards, way of thinking by reasoning within ourselves "it's all innocent" by convincing ourselves that that book, or half hour tv show of friends (or was it an hour, I dunno) or that movie is all good and will not effect us. IT DOES. Same thing with music! it soaks into us!
> 
> So, if you think it's alright to take in things such as the puker series, may I ask then what it is you believe the passage "purify your hearts" means?



Let me counter by asking you why you think Paul studied and could quote pagan mythology/poetry?


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> Some of the first book was enough to convince me I was right that Rowling is just a bad writer with a good PR agent. The fact that I would have to read the books to screen them is enough to keep me from letting the kids read them. I'd rather write a paper on Frame.
> 
> ...




Ooooooo, I'd love to critique said paper!  Fred, on a more serious note, I need to tell you what a stumbling block your smileys are to me. They constantly cause me to break the 10th Commandment. A more considerate brother would make them widely avaialable to the PB (or refrain from using them) so as not to be a stumbling block.


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Loriann_
> ...



I don't know that he did study them, rather he knew of them before his conversion, not to mention that he was kept informed of what was going on in the world around him. Either way, even if he did study them, that doesn't mean he read fantasy books to try and say "this is what they are up to." The HP books are just one way for satan to get his hooks into us and keep us fromdigging into what we ought to, a relationship with Christ.

Let me ask this also (Kevin, you avoided my question prior, please answer) those of you who DO read HPUKER, or Lord of the rings, or even the magicians nephew, do you also listen to what is considered "Christian Rock"?


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

I do have to say that as much as I despise H Puker, I much more despise Lord of the Rings and the Magicians Nephew series. REASON: HP does not pretend to be Christian literature as do the latter! What's more dangerous, out right worldism or that which has taken the Lord's name in vain? What I'm saying is that I'd rather someone know something is not scriptural than someone passing things off as parallels to scripture when what it does is draw them so convincingly into the story so as to deceive them!


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

Technically speaking, Tolkien did not pretend to be Christian in the allegorical sense. I think you are robbing yourself of a very useful apologetic/evangelistic tool in rejecting those two narratives.

Actually, I think Paul did read fantasy books (the Iliad and the Odyssey; you want to talk about slaughter and physicality not to mention magic, let's go there). Paul knew them before his conversion? Keeping in mind that he was a strict Pharisee. Also, if they were bad before his conversion, why did he use them afterwards? Also, as for filling our minds with good things, Paul had pagan poetry memorized. That suggests that it is possible to read so-called pagan literature without sinning.

I do not listen to Christian rock. It is a joke that attempts to pass off as music. I like Celtic stuff (the Chieftains). Also, we can really lower our guns at Beethoven, Mozart, etc. using your standard of reasoning.

[Edited on 7--21-05 by Draught Horse]


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

We know Beethoven was a Secular Humanist and Mozart a Catholic and Mason. oops


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## fredtgreco (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Firefox 1.0.6 + Smiley Xtra 3.1

http://www.mozilla.org/

https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=375


Both are free. Ye covet because ye download not.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi Draught can you list me the references where Paul used references to Greek mythology? Much thanks.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> Hi Draught can you list me the references where Paul used references to Greek mythology? Much thanks.



Acts 17:28
The first quotation is sometimes attributed to Epimenides, the second quotation is from Aratus' Phaenomena. Cleanthes in his Hymn to Zeus is also somewhere in there.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 21, 2005)

thanks a lot.


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



I don't, but probably not for the reasons you are trying to lead me to admit. Our basic difference is that you and I disagree on the extent to which Christians ought to engage culture. Some believe we should avoid it and what results is a neo-monasticism that manifests itself in movements like home-schooling. (Before I get flamed on that, I'm not criticizing those who home school. But I do oppose the movement). Some believe we should oppose culture. This manifests itself in a lot of the Chrisitan activism that we see going on in groups like Focus on the Family. They will never change society...though I do agree with many of their stances. Others (incuding myself) believe we should engage and infect culture. Honestly, I think that is closer to the Reformed ideal than the other two. I am not the first to lament the lack of Christian engagement of all areas of our society: education, arts, government, etc.

BTW, the point you make about *when* Paul might have studied pagan literature is irrelevant. The fact is that he *used* it in his proclomation of the gospel.


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Technically speaking, Tolkien did not pretend to be Christian in the allegorical sense. I think you are robbing yourself of a very useful apologetic/evangelistic tool in rejecting those two narratives.
> 
> Actually, I think Paul did read fantasy books (the Iliad and the Odyssey; you want to talk about slaughter and physicality not to mention magic, let's go there). Paul knew them before his conversion? Keeping in mind that he was a strict Pharisee. Also, if they were bad before his conversion, why did he use them afterwards? Also, as for filling our minds with good things, Paul had pagan poetry memorized. That suggests that it is possible to read so-called pagan literature without sinning.
> ...




If my standard of reasoning is off, I'd rather err to the side of caution.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

Aww, Kevin.
We almost had perfect agreement except for that last post! :bigsmile:
I agree. Neo-monasticism will gut the church, and I expect a sudden return to it. As many react to the vices of culture, they often swing the pendulum too far the other way.

Since you asked to get flamed on homeschooling, here goes:   mad:


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Slippery_
> ...



Let us not forget Titus 1: 12 nor Jude's intriguing use of the Apocrypha in vss. 14-15...


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Aww, Kevin.
> We almost had perfect agreement except for that last post! :bigsmile:
> I agree. Neo-monasticism will gut the church, and I expect a sudden return to it. As many react to the vices of culture, they often swing the pendulum too far the other way.
> ...



The one is a symptom of the other, I believe.

STILL, I accept your measured compliment and tell you now, it is my goal in life to have you say, "Man, Kevin, that was an AWESOME post!"


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Man, Kevin, that was an awe...awes....


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## kevin.carroll (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> ...



I'd say it's bad that the books are marketed toward 9-12 year olds (if indeed this is the case), and I know I wouldn't allow a 9-12 year old to read it. However, I don't see this as compelling reason to say that no adult believer can read them.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



No, because it is terrible music.

Loriann, I am grieved that you would be grieved over my action in reading the book. If it brings any comfort to you, I am quite certain it will not occupy my time in the future. Also, I hope that you can take comfort in the fact that, even if some PBoard members do read the books, the Holy Spirit does protect us. Granted, this would NOT be an excuse to read it if they were a danger, but hopefully, from your perspective, it may help you to be somewhat less disturbed... because it doesn't seem that most on the board are actually going to change their opinions on this. 

To be honest, I'm not sure how productive this discussion is at this point. I continue to believe that reading the books lies within the bounds of Christian liberty, but we are grieving a sister by doing so... So I'm not sure what to do about that.


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## default (Jul 21, 2005)

Evie,

Please, Please, Please don't stop reading your books due to my grieving. If the Holy Spirit convicts you it is wrong and you stop, great. I think perhaps what I was trying to say has not been well formulated. Perhaps sometime take a look into the sin of presumption. It's not a sin to take lightly, though that's what we do, take sin lightly. We reason within ourselves why something we want to do is "OK", after all, it isn't a sin. Sometimes a mere act isn't a sin, but when we get caught up into it, it begins to rob us. 

With this, I step back.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> Evie,
> 
> Please, Please, Please don't stop reading your books due to my grieving. If the Holy Spirit convicts you it is wrong and you stop, great. I think perhaps what I was trying to say has not been well formulated. Perhaps sometime take a look into the sin of presumption. It's not a sin to take lightly, though that's what we do, take sin lightly. We reason within ourselves why something we want to do is "OK", after all, it isn't a sin. Sometimes a mere act isn't a sin, but when we get caught up into it, it begins to rob us.
> ...



Well, what I meant, actually, is that I've already read all six of the books and see no need to read them again. As an English major, a history major, not to mention an ill-educated Presbyterian, I have sooooooo many other things I have to read besides rereading the Potter books.

That said, sure, I'll read book 7 when it comes out. I do want to find out what happens.

I also intend (not on the basis of your remarks, though they help) to avoid the HP message boards. While actually reading the books takes little time for me, it's easy to waste hours and hours debating theories on the message boards. (And it's one thing to debate theology here, because theology actually matters.. what happens in HP decidedly does not.) 

Thank you for your stance and your warnings!! I did read that Spurgeon sermon you posted this morning and very much appreciated it. 

[Edited on 7-22-2005 by Ex Nihilo]


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## calgal (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> Evie,
> 
> Please, Please, Please don't stop reading your books due to my grieving. If the Holy Spirit convicts you it is wrong and you stop, great. I think perhaps what I was trying to say has not been well formulated. Perhaps sometime take a look into the sin of presumption. It's not a sin to take lightly, though that's what we do, take sin lightly. We reason within ourselves why something we want to do is "OK", after all, it isn't a sin. Sometimes a mere act isn't a sin, but when we get caught up into it, it begins to rob us.
> ...


I do see HP as an issue of Christian Liberty and I am enjoying the story. Frankly it is a shame that most Christian fiction is on the level of Left Behind.  I cannot read that nonsense and want stupid escapist fantasy worlds from time to time. For someone who is coming out of a pagan lifestyle these would be a poor choice of reading. But then again, I do not own anything by Rick Warren or Joel Osteen (although it would be nice firewood this winter). :bigsmile:


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## Wrigley (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reed_
> Can anyone understand why this latest harry potter book is so popular? Is the writing in these books any good? Are they good stories? I can't understand all the hype...



I wish I knew. The lines were amazingly long the first night.


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## calgal (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Wrigley_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Reed_
> ...



I have the book and you can read it in August (you did say you would be bored before the wedding.......)








[Edited on 7-28-2005 by calgal]


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## Wrigley (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by calgal_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Wrigley_
> ...



Bored? Between packing all your stuff and other tasks you'll have for me, I won't have time to be bored. 

[Edited on 7-28-2005 by Wrigley]


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## calgal (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Wrigley_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by calgal_
> ...



Packing ALL my stuff? NOT! Of course if you offer beer, help may come (note to self: must find more tasks for Wrigley...) :bigsmile:


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## Wrigley (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by calgal_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Wrigley_
> ...



Wasn't this thread about Harry Potter, not your "honey-do" list?


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## calgal (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Wrigley_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by calgal_
> ...



Yup! The books are entertaining BUT for someone unable to separate fantasy and reality, they are inappropriate (so Tim La Haye could NOT read HP...or much else above a third grade reading level.....)


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## JasonGoodwin (Sep 4, 2005)

[quote/]
Some of the first book was enough to convince me I was right that Rowling is just a bad writer with a good PR agent. The fact that I would have to read the books to screen them is enough to keep me from letting the kids read them. I'd rather write a paper on Frame.





[Edited on 7/21/2005 by fredtgreco] [/quote]

Fred,

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "Frame"? I've never heard of it. From the way you're describing it, it sounds just as bad as what everyone on this thread was quibbling about with regards to literature.

Jason


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## crhoades (Sep 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JasonGoodwin_
> [quote/]
> Some of the first book was enough to convince me I was right that Rowling is just a bad writer with a good PR agent. The fact that I would have to read the books to screen them is enough to keep me from letting the kids read them. I'd rather write a paper on Frame.
> 
> ...



Fred,

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "Frame"? I've never heard of it. From the way you're describing it, it sounds just as bad as what everyone on this thread was quibbling about with regards to literature.

Jason [/quote]


Eagerly anticipating Fred's answer to this one.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 4, 2005)

Ok, since this thread is not yet dead, I have though we just don't know what a witch is. Here are some good definitions:

1) A hideous old woman who is in a wicked league with the devil; or
2) A stunningly beautiful young woman in a league of wickedness beyond the devil (most women would fit this one).


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