# Machen and Segregation



## A.Joseph (Sep 26, 2018)

https://oldlife.org/2018/09/05/machens-unpardonable-sin/

This is going to be used to further push social justice. Not sure why....? God uses flawed, imperfect men to preserve and advance gospel truth .....

This may be a stretch, but I wonder if Machen held to a more literal creationist perspective would he have been on the right side of this issue from the beginning... ?

Political activism is alive and well in today's church unfortunately... with the purpose of sowing discord and distracting from the gospel, theological clarity, and biblical orthodoxy... (?) Seems a bit orchestrated and deliberate...
https://twitter.com/tisaiahcho?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1036452900875063296&ref_url=https://oldlife.org/2018/09/05/machens-unpardonable-sin/


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 26, 2018)

I guess we may soon expect to see calls to remove the Machen name from any buildings on a campus.

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## Ed Walsh (Sep 26, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> I guess we may soon expect to see calls to remove the Machen name from any buildings on a campus.



I almost rated this "funny," but it is not funny what is happening in our culture. Stalin et al. were big on getting rid of the past. This trend is dangerous.

Wow! was that ever off the subject.

BTW Patrick, are you still up? Or did you beat me getting up?

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 26, 2018)

Ed Walsh said:


> BTW Patrick, are you still up? Or did you beat me getting up?


Still up, Ed. I have been struggling to get more than four hours of sleep most days.


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## smhbbag (Sep 26, 2018)

I don't see any reason to call that sin at all.


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## Dachaser (Sep 26, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> I guess we may soon expect to see calls to remove the Machen name from any buildings on a campus.


We already have seen calls to do the same for Presidents such as Jefferson.


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## Dachaser (Sep 26, 2018)

A.Joseph said:


> https://oldlife.org/2018/09/05/machens-unpardonable-sin/
> 
> This is going to be used to further push social justice. Not sure why....? God uses flawed, imperfect men to preserve and advance gospel truth .....
> 
> ...


he would just be a primary example to us that while he was a strong Christian, who resisted liberalism seeking to destroy the Faith, he still had real flaws in his theology. I would suspect all of us here have some area where either we have a bad theology, or else a misapplication of our theology.

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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 26, 2018)

People need to stop digging through the midden heap of history.

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## Taylor (Sep 26, 2018)

I'm telling you, brothers, this isn't going to stop with just Twitter posts; this is going to go much, much further in the church.

Observe...

1) A Desiring God article is written lamenting the fact that Dabney's works are still even published and sold.

2) I respond, remarking that this is, in practicality, denying justification by faith_ alone_.

3) The author (finally) responds. Even though he denies denying justification by faith alone, his rhetoric goes further, claiming, "I personally do not have utmost confidence in his salvation. […] [G]iven the evidence we have, it doesn’t look good." Notice the extreme escalation.

Don't think this will end well for anyone...

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## ZackF (Sep 26, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I'm telling you, brothers, this isn't going to stop with just Twitter posts; this is going to go much, much further in the church.
> 
> Observe...
> 
> ...



What he “personally” reckons is irrelevant.

If we go by what is in scripture and the “evidence”, can we pass judgment on St. Peter? In his heart what did he truly think of the Gentiles as drew his last breath?

Reactions: Amen 1


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## TylerRay (Sep 26, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I'm telling you, brothers, this isn't going to stop with just Twitter posts; this is going to go much, much further in the church.
> 
> Observe...
> 
> ...


"He is still quoted in our own books without caveat or qualification."

_As R. L. Dabney (who was a racist, so watch out!) once said, ..._

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## Taylor (Sep 26, 2018)

ZackF said:


> If we go by what is in scripture and the “evidence” can we pass judgment on St. Peter? In his heart what did he truly think of the Gentiles as drew is last breath?



You're right. Although Peter acknowledged Gentiles will be saved just as Jews will (Acts 15:11), is there any hard evidence he ever repented from the view of Gentiles with which he was no doubt taught to have due to his upbringing?



TylerRay said:


> "He is still quoted in our own books without caveat or qualification."



Of course, as I point out, this standard is not applied to Edwards. Yes, they have published several things that point out that he was a slaveholder, but I've never seen a "caveat or qualification" in a footnote citing Edwards—or about Calvin regarding Servetus, or about Augustine regarding some of his statements on women with which some take issue, etc., etc.

Of course, my issue is that, for Mr. Klevin (the author of that article), it would seem that, if someone held to a particular sin which our modern society hold to be particularly egregious, even their very salvation needs "caveat and qualification." In the words of Donald Trump, "Sad!"


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## Taylor (Sep 26, 2018)

> It bears repeating, the Rev. Matthew Henry Commenting on Ecclesiastes 7:
> 
> “_Make not thyself over-wise._" Be not opinionative, and conceited of thy own abilities. Set not up for a dictator, nor pretend to give law to, and give judgment upon, all about thee. Set not up for a critic, to find fault with every thing that is said and done, nor busy thyself in other men’s matters, as if thou knewest every thing and couldst do any thing. _Why shouldst thou destroy thyself_, as fools often do by meddling with strife that belongs not to them? Why shouldst thou provoke authority, and run thyself into the briers, by needless contradictions, and by going out of thy sphere to correct what is amiss? "_Be wise as serpents; beware of men._”​



Brother, this is pure gold! Thank you.


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## ZackF (Sep 26, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> You're right. Although Peter acknowledged Gentiles will be saved just as Jews will (Acts 15:11), is there any hard evidence he ever repented from the view of Gentiles with which he was no doubt taught to have due to his upbringing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I pray that Mr. Klevin realizes that Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover whatever sins he may be committing that future generations will deem unpardonable.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


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## TylerRay (Sep 26, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> You're right. Although Peter acknowledged Gentiles will be saved just as Jews will (Acts 15:11), is there any hard evidence he ever repented from the view of Gentiles with which he was no doubt taught to have due to his upbringing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sad? No--ridiculous!! If I ever have any reason to quote Mr. Klevin, I'm going to give him some caveats and qualifications of his own. See how he likes it.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 26, 2018)

Much as I loathe the Social Justice Gospel, we need to be wary of not veering off in the other direction. While "racism" is often wrongly seen as the unpardonable sin, we must also affirm that anyone advocating racial segregation among Christians is in grave error and is practically denying the catholicity of the church. The views of men like J. G. Machen and R. L. Dabney on this issue are not acceptable. And we should make no effort to atone for their errors on this subject, especially as to do so would give more ammunition to the Leftists.

Does that mean that such people were not saved? Or does it render everything they ever did or wrote worthless? I do not believe that it is either wise or necessary for us to make such pronouncements. The simple fact is that we do not know the state of other people's hearts and it is easy for us in our generation to be self-righteous on this issue. Had we been brought up in a "racist" or segregationist culture, would we have been any better? Still, that point does not excuse the church in the past for not discouraging such ungodly sentiments. And, by the way, that includes those arguing for racially segregated black or Asian churches nowadays.

Reactions: Like 5 | Amen 3


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## A.Joseph (Sep 26, 2018)

I agree 100%, but also keep in mind that this is not wholly organic...I would dare to suggest pockets of this movement are funded....
The sins of our heart and the hearts of our brethren are personal and individual matters and should be dealt with accordingly. Take the celebrity out of the equation, the systematic out of racism, and promote the universality of our deep depravity...even if it hurts book sales and our social media status.


> At the risk of illustrating the fool Henry references:
> 
> This cuts in all directions. Whether you're the "social-justice" type, its polar opposite, or somewhere in between, one should spend some time thinking about how to best user their time. It is my mere opinion, and my own anecdotal observation, that the modern "movements" of note, do little for secret, private, and local progress in the growth in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and -instead- foment dis-ease, discontent, disregard for _office_ of authority, _etc._, regardless of the earnestness or intent with which _some _may be executing this "duty."
> 
> ...


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## Taylor (Sep 26, 2018)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Much as I loathe the Social Justice Gospel, we need to be wary of not veering off in the other direction. While "racism" is often wrongly seen as the unpardonable sin, we must also affirm that anyone advocating racial segregation among Christians is in grave error and is practically denying the catholicity of the church. The views of men like J. G. Machen and R. L. Dabney on this issue are not acceptable. And we should make no effort to atone for their errors on this subject, especially as to do so would give more ammunition to the Leftists.
> 
> Does that mean that such people were not saved? Or does it render everything they ever did or wrote worthless? I do not believe that it is either wise or necessary for us to make such pronouncements. The simple fact is that we do not know the state of other people's hearts and it is easy for us in our generation to be self-righteous on this issue. Had we been brought up in a "racist" or segregationist culture, would we have been any better? Still, that point does not excuse the church in the past for not discouraging such ungodly sentiments. And, by the way, that includes those arguing for racially segregated black or Asian churches nowadays.



These are my feelings exactly, brother. I love Dabney, but I would never ask someone, myself included, to dismiss his sin as something light or inconsequential. It wasn't! My issue is not that we are noticing these things about our forefathers in the Faith. However, what I_ am_ asking is that we dispense, as you remarked, with our self-righteous attitudes toward others—both living and dead—as if we are any better before God without Christ as a garment of righteousness over our naked and exposed bodies. It is one thing to take note of our brothers' and sisters' sins; it is a whole different thing to begin the process of their public condemnation, even suggesting that these objects of our wicked wrath are now the objects of God's perfect wrath in hell. That, to me, seems not only over-the-top, but entirely out of the bounds of Scripture.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 26, 2018)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> People need to stop digging through the midden heap of history.


Indeed.

I wonder about the motivations of those that set about spending the time granted them by God to do this sort of thing. I suspect for not a few their agenda is not for the glorification of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Reactions: Amen 1


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## De Jager (Sep 26, 2018)

One time I yelled at my mother. As a clear violator of the 5th commandment who is not fit for the presence of God, should anyone listen to anything I have to say about doctrine?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 26, 2018)

De Jager said:


> One time I yelled at my mother. As a clear violator of the 5th commandment who is not fit for the presence of God, should anyone listen to anything I have to say about doctrine?


Too bad we do not have a _Funny, yet Sad_ smilie. 

Contact Gloria Allred immediately. Hearings on the matter of your fitness are imminent.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 26, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Contact Gloria Allred immediately. Hearings on the matter of your fitness are imminent.

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## Ben Zartman (Sep 26, 2018)

Anyone else see the irony in there being a huge 2nd Commandment violation right on the page that's grousing about Machen's error?
"Let him that is without sin among you cast the first stone"
and then there's the bit about motes and beams in folks eyes....

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## A.Joseph (Sep 27, 2018)

"Finally, this episode is a good reminder of the importance of distinguishing between _history_ and _theology_ (or ethics). As a matter of theology and ethics we should reject Machen’s prejudices. We should determine to apply our theology (e.g., our doctrine the image of God) consistently. As a matter of Christian ethics, we should determine to love our neighbor as ourselves without regard to ethnicity. We rightly regard this as basic Christianity. As a matter of _history_, however, we need to interpret figures in light of _their_ time, _their _circumstances_, their_ location in history and not in light of ours. This too is a matter of basic Christian ethics. This is how Christian historians love their neighbor as themselves. Anachronism is the result of impatience and even intellectual laziness. This is an American disease. We tend to want results now. We tend to agree with Henry Ford, “history is bunk.” Christians, however, cannot afford to indulge their impatience and pragmatism. " - RSC

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## Regi Addictissimus (Sep 27, 2018)

A.Joseph said:


> I would dare to suggest pockets of this movement are funded.



This is sadly true and can be demonstrated to be so.


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## jwithnell (Sep 27, 2018)

A.Joseph said:


> https://oldlife.org/2018/09/05/machens-unpardonable-sin/
> 
> This is going to be used to further push social justice. Not sure why....? God uses flawed, imperfect men to preserve and advance gospel truth .....
> 
> ...


This is NOT accurate. The University itself did not admit any blacks until World War II. When a black student showed up in 1935, Princeton ran him out under a vague supposition that southern students would not be comfortable. Mr. Machen grew up in Baltimore (which had more social mobility than just about any other US city at the time) and died long before dormitories housed blacks. 

Note: the website in the OP is badly infested with mal code.

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## Tom Hart (Sep 27, 2018)

I find the comments by the author, Timothy Isaiah Cho, to be nothing short of racist. See the section entitled "White Theology Unmasked". No examples given or sources cited in this register of offences against "people of colour".

https://faithfullymagazine.com/amp/tale-of-two-machens/


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## Dachaser (Sep 27, 2018)

jwithnell said:


> This is NOT accurate. The University itself did not admit any blacks until World War II. When a black student showed up in 1935, Princeton ran him out under a vague supposition that southern students would not be comfortable. Mr. Machen grew up in Baltimore (which had more social mobility than just about any other US city at the time) and died long before dormitories housed blacks.
> 
> Note: the website in the OP is badly infested with mal code.


Intersting that the more socially liberal university was not allowing for diversity on their campus.


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## Taylor (Sep 27, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> No examples given or sources cited in this register of offences against "people of colour".



This is one of the grievances I have with Mr. Klevin’s article against Dabney (see my first comment in this thread). In his response to me, his talks about “dismantling white supremacy” in “evangelical spaces and institutions,” yet not once does he cite any example of _actual_ white supremacy (except criticizing MLK, Jr. in any way at all). This habit of accusation without hard evidence example is a common theme among these types, I have found.

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## jwithnell (Sep 27, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Intersting that the more socially liberal university was not allowing for diversity on their campus.


That's just it. At the time, many of the top universities did not admit blacks or women, and capped the number of Jews. In many places, especially on the West Coast, people with Asian ancestry could not own land. In Alaska, it was OK to post signs that said no Indians could enter a place of business. This is a part of our past that should not be forgotten.

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## Dachaser (Sep 27, 2018)

jwithnell said:


> That's just it. At the time, many of the top universities did not admit blacks or women, and capped the number of Jews. In many places, especially on the West Coast, people with Asian ancestry could not own land. In Alaska, it was OK to post signs that said no Indians could enter a place of business. This is a part of our past that should not be forgotten.


Today, it appears that the only groups excluded by the Schools such as Harvard and Princeton and Yale would be Christians and Conservatives.

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## bookslover (Sep 28, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I'm telling you, brothers, this isn't going to stop with just Twitter posts; this is going to go much, much further in the church.
> 
> Observe...
> 
> ...



When Dabney died in 1898, he was buried in his Civil War uniform - 33 years after the end of the war. The old boy never did figure it out. I have no doubt he is in heaven. Like all of us, however, he was a man of his time and place.


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## sc_q_jayce (Sep 28, 2018)

jwithnell said:


> That's just it. At the time, many of the top universities did not admit blacks or women, and capped the number of Jews. In many places, especially on the West Coast, people with Asian ancestry could not own land. In Alaska, it was OK to post signs that said no Indians could enter a place of business. This is a part of our past that should not be forgotten.


Fun fact, Wyoming, Kansas and New Mexico repealed their Alien Land Laws back in in the 2000s and Florida has it up on their ballot this year.

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## Edward (Oct 1, 2018)

This thread got me to thinking (always a bit risky). 

Who can identify this speaker:



> "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."


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## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 1, 2018)

Edward said:


> This thread got me to thinking (always a bit risky).
> 
> Who can identify this speaker:



Abraham Lincoln. I think it was from the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Indeed, I suspect that may have been one of the "gobbets" I was going to get my students to analyse when I was preparing my course on the ACW. 

My memory is a bit sketchy at the minute, but I think that comment was made in response to extreme race-baiting by his Democratic opponent. Anyway, it is little wonder that some unhinged Leftists have attacked monuments of President Lincoln for failing their purity tests.

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## Edward (Oct 1, 2018)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I think it was from the Lincoln-Douglas debates



Impressive. 4th Debate. September 18, 1858. 

I probably should have read it on a college campus a few weeks ago on it's 160th anniversary. It probably would have sent a lot of snowflakes running for a safe space.

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## hammondjones (Oct 2, 2018)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Anyway, it is little wonder that some unhinged Leftists have attacked monuments of President Lincoln for failing their purity tests.



Elihu Yale was a slave trader. Their Calhoun College was easy to rename, but when Yale University renames itself I'll be impressed.


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## Edward (Oct 2, 2018)

hammondjones said:


> Elihu Yale was a slave trader. Their Calhoun College was easy to rename, but when Yale University renames itself I'll be impressed.



Don't forget the perhaps most illiberal (in the historic sense of the word) of the lot, named for slave trader, smuggler, and election rigger Nick Brown.


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