# Christians and the Military



## stevestutz (Apr 26, 2010)

I have a legitimate question about military service, and I want the opinions of fellow believers of biblical theology. I myself am in the military, but ironically I have always struggled with this question (more on this if desired). In light of the United States today, especially her interests, is it right for a Christian to join the military and fight in America's wars? 

If you are simply going to cite the just war theory or, on the other hand, condemn service outright, don't bother to answer. I am looking for thoughtful answers that are not tainted by overly emotional involvement or naive adherence to political rhetoric. 

Please share, this is a very difficult thing for me, as you can imagine.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 26, 2010)

Well Brother as someone who has served and am praying to go back in as a chaplain I don't see a problem. With not getting into the Just War theory and approaching this from a 9th Commandment angle I don't see a problem. The men appointed over you as leaders take an oath just as you do. They have the right and are expected not to follow illegal orders just like you. Therefore I don't believe that they would intentionally put our men and women into harms way simply because they want to. If they did there are mechanisms in place to keep this from occurring. While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people. I spent 4 years with the Marines as a Navy corpsman (medic) and have not seen that level of integrity as a civilian. It is expected for one to lie, cheat, and steal as a civilian at least as a military contractor that appears to be expected.

Okay...recruiting rant over.


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## SRoper (Apr 26, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people. I spent 4 years with the Marines as a Navy corpsman (medic) and have not seen that level of integrity as a civilian. It is expected for one to lie, cheat, and steal as a civilian at least as a military contractor that appears to be expected.


 
Recruiters from two of the branches of the military urged me to lie on my application. I've never had a civilian recruiter do that, but I guess they aren't as desperate.


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## Andres (Apr 26, 2010)

My biggest qualm with the military has nothing to do with wars, etc. I am more concerned with the lengthy deployments and how that affects families. I have never been in the military but my father was in the Air Force for over 20 years. During that time he was often out of the country for months at a time and I unfortunately think it had a tremendous effect on our family. (I do need to add that my family was not Christian during this time) I would be interested to hear how some of our the fine military men here handle this obstacle.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 26, 2010)

SRoper said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people. I spent 4 years with the Marines as a Navy corpsman (medic) and have not seen that level of integrity as a civilian. It is expected for one to lie, cheat, and steal as a civilian at least as a military contractor that appears to be expected.
> ...


 
Yeah, recruiters are in a tough situation and far too many decide to take the low road. I know many great Christians who have foregone recruiter duty specifically because it's all about the numbers and to do whatever needs to be done to get bodies in. There are quite a number of recruiters who are honest and upright. Not sure how well they do but mine was honest with me. He dropped me like a hot potato once I signed the dotted line but that's to be expected....just kinda hurt.


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## Montanablue (Apr 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> My biggest qualm with the military has nothing to do with wars, etc. I am more concerned with the lengthy deployments and how that affects families. I have never been in the military but my father was in the Air Force for over 20 years. During that time he was often out of the country for months at a time and I unfortunately think it had a tremendous effect on our family. (I do need to add that my family was not Christian during this time) I would be interested to hear how some of our the fine military men here handle this obstacle.


 
It has been a lot of work for my friends in the military to take care of their families - not financially, but emotionally. I'm not saying it can't be done, but its definitely worth doing a lot of thinking and praying about. It takes commitment.


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## Jack K (Apr 26, 2010)

Military strength is a necessary evil in this world. Your nation (the U.S.) doesn't have a perfect military, but its principles are better than many. It values fighting for good causes in honorable ways that respect the enemy and protect the innocent. We may not agree with some particular military actions, and on too many occasions they may be conducted dishonorably. But the right principles are in place.

The military actions we have underway right now stem, ostensibly, from a desire to protect ourselves, our friends and other innocents from terrorism and to curb the growth of terrorist-sponsoring regimes. We might argue over the accuracy of that assessment or the wisdom of our approach or the purity of our motives, but the basic premise is just. So serving in the military is allowed.

I think the larger question for those who serve is "will _you_ act honorably in the midst of very stressful situations and a military culture that sometimes forgets its honorable principles?"


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 26, 2010)

I've had problems in regards to the question of whether the Christian should participate in militaristic actions too. After reading the scripture and even the chuch fathers, such as Tertullian, I've become VERY pacific in my theology. However, I do not think it right to condemn those who disagree with myself on such a sensitive issue and I do sincerely wish you safety and the Lord's blessing.


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## TimV (Apr 26, 2010)

If you're going to chuck Just War Theory from the start, you'll end up somewhere in la-la land. Christian thinkers ten times smarter than you or me have been working on it for ages, tweaking it here and there, but it's been a foundation teaching for 1,500 years for Christians.


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## darrellmaurina (Apr 27, 2010)

I live outside Fort Leonard Wood. That's the home of the Army Engineer School, the Military Police School and the CBRN (chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear) School, and has long since expanded from the basic training post that some people remember from their own Army days. In short, it's where everything from defending against improvised explosive devices to training Guantanamo guards gets conducted, and was a central focus coordinating the hunt for weapons of mass destruction a few years ago in Iraq.

While there are obviously problems in any organization including the military -- and as a reporter, I see some of the absolute worst the military has when I cover court martials and occasional horrible spousal violence cases exacerbated by deployments -- I can say unequivocally that speaking as a class, I have never seen in civilian life or the typical church world anywhere close to the high level of standards, commitment and dedication that I am now used to seeing in the military.

Those who live in the South may not see much difference between the level of Christian commitment in the military and what they see in civilian life, though they probably will see a substantially higher standard of personal discipline and work ethics. However, because our modern all-volunteer force is heavily Southern and rural, it draws from the segments of American society that are most likely to be conservative and Christian.

That Christianity is obviously broadly evangelical, and for some of the stricter Calvinists here that may be a reason not to join the military. I respect that.

But for those who don't mind rubbing shoulders with Bible-believing Baptists and Pentecostals (and yes, Hispanic Roman Catholics and a fair number of Mormons) in an environment where basic morality and personal discipline are not just tolerated but encouraged, the military seems a whole lot better than most of civilian life. Yes, it's civic morality and not necessarily biblical obedience, but that's a whole lot better than most of American civilian life.

And by the way, there's usually a Reformed church of some type near stateside Army installations, though there's a good chance it is small and may be pastored by a man who is retired from the military and using his Army pension to support himself in a church that otherwise could not pay a full-time pastor. The Reformed faith tends to generate the level of personal discipline and work ethics that make a successful military career, and it's interesting to see how many colonels and sergeants major (the highest enlisted rank) have last names of "Van-something" or have a Southern Presbyterian background and pictures of Stonewall Jackson on their office shelves.

---------- Post added 04-27-2010 at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-26-2010 at 11:31 PM ----------

Just another word on the stress of deployments raised by several people other than the initial questioner: There's no question in the world that deployments create problems for family life. I see that every day in this community where the Army is far and away the largest employer in the county.

However, the Army does a better job of trying to help families through FRGs, various support services, and formal aids such as free child care and counseling than virtually any other employer except perhaps those in the law enforcement community. The days of "if the Army wanted you to have a family, it would have issued you one" are long gone. The Army understands that it enlists soldiers but re-enlists families, and spouses have a huge impact in re-enlistment decisons. "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" applies to the military -- and does so with a vengeance, since spouses are going to have to carry the burden of home life for extended periods when the soldier is gone.

My basic question is this -- the Army is not for everyone. I understand that. But if somebody isn't willing to train to fight, we're going to have al-Qaeda at our doorsteps in a very short time. America's reputation for military might was forged in the early 1800s when we went "to the shores of Tripoli" to destroy the power of Islamic pirates when the nations of Europe preferred to pay tribute and bribe the pirates to leave Mediterranean shipping alone. Our tiny newborn nation did in the early 1800s thousands of miles from our shores what the nations of Europe were unable to do in their own back yard of the Mediterranean, namely, defeat the Islamic pirates, refuse to pay tribute, and make the sea safe for civilian shipping.

The military exists for a reason, and we need to thank our soldiers for their work in making it possible for us to do things like discussing theology on this message board in peace without worrying about being tracked down and tortured for our faith.


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## Whitefield (Apr 27, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people.


 
Not to detract from the excellent points you make, I would like to respond to this challenge: firefighters.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 27, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people.
> ...


 
Not true. I've known too many firefighters. Duty, honor, country, etc., are NOT drilled into them.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 27, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > SemperEruditio said:
> ...



Gotta agree with Ben. Now I don't want it to be misunderstood that I am saying that other people do not have core values because that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the military prides itself and has it as their code of military justice that such things as adultery can have a person discharged. There is the catch-all which is "conducting unbecoming an Officer." There are mechanisms in place that demonstrate to me that the military expects high levels of integrity and you can be punished severely for violating the trust placed upon you as a leader all the way down to a PFC.

Having been a corpsman I worked in the hospital. My watch was on the ambulance crew and for my last 6 months stationed at the hospital I worked alongside firefighters. Now there was talk about honor and then there was the CAPT committing adultery. It was not a secret and he was considered "real" because he "kept it real." I was married right before I left and his advice to me was to "always keep one on the side...keeps things exciting..." These were not military firefighters but civilians working on the base.

I need to get out of this rabbit hole I've dug. My point is, I believe that Christians should serve in the military. I have been exposed to so much in my time in the military that I think it should be mandatory to join. My time was not a cakewalk and I had the highest highs (Sailor of the Year) to the lowest lows (almost courtmartialed) but I have met and continue to meet some of the finest people. It ain't for everyone and I can respect those who choose not to. The thing is that IME it is those who choose not to serve who are the loudest about others joining yet have no clue what they're talking about. My last sentence is not directed at anyone in particular...I'm just sayin!


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 27, 2010)

TimV said:


> If you're going to chuck Just War Theory from the start, you'll end up somewhere in la-la land. Christian thinkers ten times smarter than you or me have been working on it for ages, tweaking it here and there, but it's been a foundation teaching for 1,500 years for Christians.



A while back I read an article by a very smart ethicist, the Mennonite John Howard Yoder, who asked his readers if there is even such an idea as just war based upon the criteria for military action. He concluded, of course from his background, that there is no instance when all the criteria for a Just War have been met and it's hard to recognize a situation in which there could be a Just War, based upon the criteria. If one seeks to be true to scripture, and truly practice _sola scriptura_, then one must base their own 'Just War Theory' from scripture. I'm not saying there couldn't be one found in scripture, but I am saying that we can't just take something just because it's been there for 1,500 years, because some might ask why it hasn't been there for 2000 years.

In article I mentioned, Yoder lists the criteria for a Just War:

1. The intention must be good. Intention may sometimes mean the long-range goal. That is, a war must be undertaken for the peace of the world, and not for some less worthy cause. It may be more subjective: you shouldn't wage war out of hatred or selfishness. 
2. Only a just authority can wage a just war. A bandit can't wage a just war; a private citizen can't wage a just war. Only a legitimate governmental agent can do that. 
3. The cause must be justified. That could be broken down into many sub-cases. 
4. The means must be limited. They must be limited by the intrinsic rights of some people not to be harmed. That would include the immunity of noncombatants, neutrals, and third parties. The means must be limited as well by stated rights, for instance, by the existing laws. That especially includes the modem treaties on the conduct of war that have been signed by all civilized nations. Limits are imposed also by inner logic, by proportionality. The war must not do more harm than good. 
5. Just war must be winnable. If there is no reasonable likelihood of winning, then it is wrong to wage a war even for a good cause. 
6. It must be a matter of last resort. If there is any other way to obtain a goal without the use of war, then the war is not justified.

Here's a link to the article http://www.jesusradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/can-there-be-a-just-war.pdf


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## TimV (Apr 27, 2010)

> A while back I read an article by a very smart ethicist, the Mennonite John Howard Yoder, who asked his readers if there is even such an idea as just war based



Mennonites are cultists. Going to a Mennonite to learn about Just War is like going to a Mormon to learn about the Trinity.


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## Whitefield (Apr 27, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > SemperEruditio said:
> ...


 
Please note he did not say "duty, honor, country". He said "honor, courage, & commitment". The three traits he lists are found in the fire service. Come ride on a fire call at 3 a.m. to a house fire with children suspected to be inside. You will see lots of honor, courage, & commitment.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 27, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> SolaScriptura said:
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> > Whitefield said:
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Actually, I'll see a bunch of adrenaline junkies who can't wait to get to the ER to do immoral things with the er nurses. Again, I've known too many firefighters... and it is why in the past I get frustrated when people speak or write as if the military is "super immoral."

Please note that I'm not saying that ALL firefighters are devoid of a sense of honor, courage, or commitment. Indeed, any employee anywhere who does his job to the best of his ability is exhibiting these types of things.
But, to return to the case of the firefighter, their field does not codify these traits or drill them in or expect them 24/7... and punish violations with the force of law.


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## Whitefield (Apr 27, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> Whitefield said:
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> > SolaScriptura said:
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Good thing nothing like that happens in the military. Ending my off topic input.


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 27, 2010)

TimV said:


> > A while back I read an article by a very smart ethicist, the Mennonite John Howard Yoder, who asked his readers if there is even such an idea as just war based
> 
> 
> 
> Mennonites are cultists. Going to a Mennonite to learn about Just War is like going to a Mormon to learn about the Trinity.



Mr. Vaughan,

You are correct if you are saying that there are many theological problems with the Mennonite position, but to say that Mennonites are cultists I think is somewhat overboard. Moreover, to simply make the analogy that the Mennonites are just as heretical as a Mormon because he denies the Trinity is over the top. The Mennonites do have MANY theological problems, but that doesn't bar them from participating in the arena of ideas, and that includes theological issues. I'm not saying I agree 100% with the Mennonites, but I don't think one should bar them by simply saying they are Mennonites therefore they can't contribute to the discussion.


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## smhbbag (Apr 27, 2010)

> But, to return to the case of the firefighter, their field does not codify these traits or drill them in or expect them 24/7... and punish violations with the force of law.



I guess this would explain why there are so much fewer strip clubs, seedy bars, and prostitutes planted in military towns. With all the honor around, there is just no demand for it.

In fact, I'm considering moving to Fayetteville, NC just so I can live in the safe, quiet, peaceful, and morally-upright communities surrounding Ft. Bragg and the 82nd Airborne.

Edited to add:

Eleanor Roosevelt summed it up best, not just for the Marines, but for all the hard-charging front-line types:



> The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!



They are extreme people, by nature. The physical honor, courage, and commitment they display is beyond admirable. But those traits simply do not cross over to personal lives to the extent that many would like to think. On the whole, their internal moral reasoning processes have been broken.

This is evidenced by the institutional support and pride in the very quote I gave. 

It hangs in the barracks at Parris Island, and in both of the Marine recruiting offices I've seen. It is not something to be proud of. There are only two moral guidelines on base: follow your orders regardless of the hardship, and stay true to your fellow Marines. If you follow those, _anything_ else is fair game. It takes more than that to be honorable.


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 27, 2010)

Is there a war that fits all 6 criteria for the Just War Theory? Should one only hope to get a majority of the criteria? Is it possible to check off all 6 criteria for a Just War? I'm just wanting others input.


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## smhbbag (Apr 27, 2010)

I also think there is something of a halo effect here, which has been documented in other areas.

For example, experiments and studies have shown that people are more likely to cheat and steal after purchasing so-called "Green" products than conventional ones. The researchers reason that the consumers feel they have stored up some good deeds in their karma-bank, and can then afford an immoral action or two.

Do Green Products Make Us Better People

With soldiers, it's not just a single purchase - it's their whole lives. When people have such a high view of the nobility of their profession, it puts a halo over everything else. So, by the same process as these Greenies, the soldier's halo allows him to indulge in sin with no consequence in his conscience.


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## Prufrock (Apr 27, 2010)

*[Moderator]*
*Let's keep this one on the topic of the OP*
*[/Moderator]*


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## Andrew P.C. (Apr 27, 2010)

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by calling a just war "theory" since the divines themselves used the term as fact (I.E. Ch 23.2 of the WCF). But since I'm in the military myself(Marine Corps) I'd like to chime in this discussion.

I have asked myself that same question. Since I'm in the infantry I've been asking myself if it's murder or if it's just to pull that trigger. Why are we really in this war? I'm not totally sure. On one end, if someone was coming into my country and trying to force certain regulations upon me, I would truly be offended. How this goes into the subject of defending my country is how certain situations turn out... but that's besides the point. At the end of the day, there are guys shooting at us FIRST, so in defense, I shoot back at them. I'm still not totally sure if it's right or not... but in all honesty... I have no choice in the matter. I'm told what to do and when to do it. No questions asked. I believe I'm in the right, but I must be convinced from scripture alone. Am I? I think so.... I joke around a lot and say I wish I had a different MOS so I wouldn't have to make that decision. I don't really think anyone on this board can understand my situation, unless, you have served in the infantry as a Christian with a biblical conviction about these matters. Officers and/or POGs(it's a term used to describe all other people outside of the 0300 MOS's... it stands for "person other then grunt") don't understand the things we go through as an infantry unit (no offense to some on the board that I know are officers, but it's true... we see it first hand that a lot of officers are ignorant of things that go on even within their own platoons).

There are just a lot of things to be considered when coming to this topic... so to take it lightly or to throw out certain things isn't the wisest choice to make.

I pray that you will be able to find an answer that it truly convicting from scripture alone. May God bless your study, prayer, and meditation upon the scriptures for an answer.

Soli Deo Gloria.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 28, 2010)

smhbbag said:


> > But, to return to the case of the firefighter, their field does not codify these traits or drill them in or expect them 24/7... and punish violations with the force of law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually, you're wrong. Regarding Fayetteville... you may be surprised to learn that the "off limits" list is over 4 pages long - Fayetteville has a very parasitic relationship with the military. (By contrast, the Ft. Riley off limits list had only 1 entry... not all army towns are equal.) Are a great many Soldiers immoral. Yes. But it should be pointed out - and I thought this was the purpose of the thread- that institutionally, the military does NOT endorse and condone it, and by placing things on the off limits list Soldiers have been given an order to NOT frequent the place and they do so at the risk of UCMJ punishment. 

And your silly, "It only takes 2 things to be considered honorable" nonsense is just that... nonsense.

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------




Andrew P.C. said:


> . Officers and/or POGs(it's a term used to describe all other people outside of the 0300 MOS's... it stands for "person other then grunt") don't understand the things we go through as an infantry unit (no offense to some on the board that I know are officers, but it's true... we see it first hand that a lot of officers are ignorant of things that go on even within their own platoons).


 
I agree - folks like to hide their wickedness from their leadership. And unless the leader does an inordinate amount of rooting around in the weeds, it is easy to miss. I know because once upon a time I too was an enlisted man in an infantry unit.


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 28, 2010)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Well, I'm not sure what you mean by calling a just war "theory" since the divines themselves used the term as fact (I.E. Ch 23.2 of the WCF). But since I'm in the military myself(Marine Corps) I'd like to chime in this discussion.
> 
> I have asked myself that same question. Since I'm in the infantry I've been asking myself if it's murder or if it's just to pull that trigger. Why are we really in this war? I'm not totally sure. On one end, if someone was coming into my country and trying to force certain regulations upon me, I would truly be offended. How this goes into the subject of defending my country is how certain situations turn out... but that's besides the point. At the end of the day, there are guys shooting at us FIRST, so in defense, I shoot back at them. I'm still not totally sure if it's right or not... but in all honesty... I have no choice in the matter. I'm told what to do and when to do it. No questions asked. I believe I'm in the right, but I must be convinced from scripture alone. Am I? I think so.... I joke around a lot and say I wish I had a different MOS so I wouldn't have to make that decision. I don't really think anyone on this board can understand my situation, unless, you have served in the infantry as a Christian with a biblical conviction about these matters. Officers and/or POGs(it's a term used to describe all other people outside of the 0300 MOS's... it stands for "person other then grunt") don't understand the things we go through as an infantry unit (no offense to some on the board that I know are officers, but it's true... we see it first hand that a lot of officers are ignorant of things that go on even within their own platoons).
> 
> ...


 
Mr. Cunningham,
I would say that simply because the divines considered Just War a fact in the WCF does not make it a fact. They also considered the pope as the antichrist and I think that most of us on this board do not take it as a fact that the papacy is the antichrist. So, just because the confession contains that doesn’t make it scripturally correct. 
Also, I would disagree with you when you state that you have no choice in the matter of whether you participate in the war. You do have a choice, and whether you believe this current engagement just or unjust you must stick with your conscience. You are correct that I don’t know your predicament, and so you have my best wishes as a brother in Christ.


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## py3ak (Apr 28, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people.


 
Engineers.


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## Blue Tick (Apr 28, 2010)

stevestutz said:


> I have a legitimate question about military service, and I want the opinions of fellow believers of biblical theology. I myself am in the military, but ironically I have always struggled with this question (more on this if desired). In light of the United States today, especially her interests, is it right for a Christian to join the military and fight in America's wars?
> 
> If you are simply going to cite the just war theory or, on the other hand, condemn service outright, don't bother to answer. I am looking for thoughtful answers that are not tainted by overly emotional involvement or naive adherence to political rhetoric.
> 
> Please share, this is a very difficult thing for me, as you can imagine.



How about bring the question one step deeper. Is it biblical for a society to have a standing military?


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## Skyler (Apr 28, 2010)

py3ak said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me another organization that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people.
> ...


 
This is true. American freedom is way more dependent upon engineers than the military.

If it weren't for them, the military would still be fighting with stone knives and bearskins!


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 28, 2010)

py3ak said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > While the military is not the pinnacle of honor I would like for someone to show me *another organization* that does puts honor, courage, & commitment as their core values and expects that from their people.
> ...





If Dilbert were an organization I'd say I would agree.

Man oh man has this thread gone off point.


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## TimV (Apr 28, 2010)

It shouldn't be an organisation. It should be the active manpower of a nation.

Still, the California's licensed contractors have an organisation, and we're twice as well educated and physically stronger than military personnel. As to personal behavior, I'd say on the order of 3 times more moral, and we make 4 times as much money. 

There are a lot of great military guys out there (the women tend to be loose), but more often then not they are motivated by economics (they can't find better jobs) so in general they are in inferior class of people to contractors.

;-) After reading this, (and it's true) keep in mind, you military types, what it's like to those reading when you wax hagiographic about yourselves.


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## Andrew P.C. (Apr 28, 2010)

Mr Snow
I'm curious, have you ever served in the military? Since you do not understand my predicament, then how would you know military rules and regulations on what freedoms I do and do not have? Do you understand how orders are given and must be carried out? By your comments I would think not. In all honesty Mr. Snow, I take offense to your comments. If you truly think I can just go around and tell higher ranking individuals "no, I will not go" then you are quite ignorant.


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## JML (Apr 28, 2010)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Coming from a particular baptist, with all due respect, I don't take your comment that seriously.



Can you clarify this statement?


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## Andrew P.C. (Apr 28, 2010)

John,

That was a bit rash. I was just making that comment out of frustration of his comments. I'm removing as we speak.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 28, 2010)

TimV said:


> Still, the California's licensed contractors have an organisation, and we're twice as well educated and physically stronger than military personnel. As to personal behavior, I'd say on the order of 3 times more moral, and we make 4 times as much money.



Wow! That's amazing that you can quantify it like that! You're TWICE as well educated... wow! Since virtually every NCO has at least an Associates and most senior NCOs have at least a Bachelor's degree... and most officers have a master's degree... you guys must be OUTSTANDING if you're _twice_ as well educated! And physically stronger... perhaps stronger than some, not stronger than others, but to make an across the board assessment of strength is really silly.




> There are a lot of great military guys out there (the women tend to be loose), but more often then not they are motivated by economics (they can't find better jobs) so in general they are in inferior class of people to contractors.



Ok, I'll have to hand it to you regarding the females in the military... just kidding... well, some are, but not all or even most. But motivated by economics? And contractors aren't? You're kidding me right? I've met many many folks in the military who are motivated by things other than economics. I'd love to meet the contractor who does what he does primarily out of a sense of patriotism.

The bottom line is that if you're going to talk about the honorability of an institution, you need to look at the rules and systems in place - what kinds of values do they want in their people, and what do they do in order to help their people live those values. You anti-military types might be surprised to learn that YES there is a lot of immorality, but almost all of it is contrary to rules and people are routinely disciplined for breaking those rules. People get punished for underage drinking ALL THE TIME. Drinking and driving? Man, the civil punishment is just the beginning of your problems. Drugs? Few (if any) civilian employers are as rigorous or thorough in their testing, and as far as punishment goes... I've seen people put in jail for using (not dealing)... this combines to result in the military consistently having a much lower usage rate than the civilian population. Adultery? Yep, it happens, but in the military they can really run you through the wringer for it. Abandoning and/or neglecting to care for your family? The military will (at the drop of a hat) take money from you to give it to your family if you neglect them. Don't pay your bills? Again, the military will MAKE you pay your bills. The whole foreclosure crisis? Not very many military folks in that predicament- for many of us, that kind of thing would result in our clearance getting revoked, and thus we'd lose our job. Beat your spouse? The military has something for you...

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is that institutionally, organizationally, the military has rules in place oriented towards honorability and respectability. No other employer will be (or can be) as intrustive into your life in order to instill a code of honor and decency. Sure, individuals may violate it, but that isn't the institution's fault.
Critiquing servicemembers and critiquing the military are two different things. 



> ;-) After reading this, (*and it's true*)


 
I think I've established that it isn't.


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## TimV (Apr 28, 2010)

> I think I've established that it isn't.



That's the funniest thing so far on this thread.



> Wow! That's amazing that you can quantify it like that! You're TWICE as well educated... wow! Since virtually every NCO has at least an Associates and most senior NCOs have at least a Bachelor's degree...



I thought we were talking about everyone in the military? Were you or were you not? You can't even apply for a contractor's license in CA without a Bachelors. We're easily twice as educated as people in the military. Unless you feel the need to start being tricky. Why don't you restrict it on only generals?.



> I could go on and on. But the bottom line is that institutionally, organizationally, the military has rules in place oriented towards honorability and respectability. No other employer will be (or can be) as intrustive into your life in order to instill a code of honor and decency.



You are thoroughly brainwashed. We have to have a 10,000 dollar bond promising we'll keep our word. And we add to the economy rather than acting parasitically.


> I'd love to meet the contractor who does what he does primarily out of a sense of patriotism.



So, killing heathen who've never done anything thing to you for the sake of Israel is more patriotic than making nice places for people to live?




> And physically stronger... perhaps stronger than some, not stronger than others, but to make an across the board assessment of strength is really silly.



I'll even add better with weapons. My friends at Vandenberg only shoot every couple years.


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## TimV (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm not doing anything except to try to hold a mirror up to certain people who for some reason think their professions are more honorable than others.


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## py3ak (Apr 28, 2010)

Closed for lack of a sense of humor.


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