# 1 Timothy 2



## Scott Shahan (Sep 15, 2007)

Is this passage written specificly for this church, was Paul just addressing this church with this issue? 

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

And in verse 12 Paul speaks and say's "I do not permit" are those the words of Paul and not specificly God's Word or teaching on the issue? But Paul speaking for himself in that given situation.

thanks


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## Iconoclast (Sep 15, 2007)

*all scripture/from God*

Even as Paul addessed this church,as an Apostle he was being guided into all truth, by The Spirit of God. In chapter 3 he explains in part what "must" take place in the church;

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 

The word oughtest is the word must. Like you must be born again. Or Jesus saying I must go to Jerusalem. It was not cultural,it is still binding today.

Paul would sometimes differentiate when He repeated a teaching he heard directly from Jesus, or when He was speaking on His authority as an apostle.like here in 1 cor 7;

10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband. 

If it is written in scripture,it comes from men as they were borne along,or moved by God,
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


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## Mathetes (Sep 15, 2007)

Douglas Moo has an article on this very subject, with his usual attention to detail:

What Does It Mean Not to Teach or Have Authority Over Men


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## AV1611 (Sep 15, 2007)

Scott Shahan said:


> Is this passage written specificly for this church, was Paul just addressing this church with this issue?
> 
> 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
> 
> ...



I think Rich needs to devise a new smilie of a "hot potato" 'cos this certaiinly is one. St Paul was writing to Timothy who Paul told to "abide still at Ephesus...that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine". This was part of Timothy's teaching mission so to speak. This is to do with the worship of God and specifically public worship or worship within a congregational setting. Paul wrote this but "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction" and Paul was also writing as an Apostle with authority and his doctrine was apostolic and the early Jerusalem church "continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine" as should we. Women are _not_ to teach for the very reason mentioned by Paul.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 15, 2007)

Mathetes said:


> Douglas Moo has an article on this very subject, with his usual attention to detail:
> 
> What Does It Mean Not to Teach or Have Authority Over Men



Check out also R. Fowler White's excellent article on the same... George Knight's commentary on the Pastoral Epistles in the NIGTC series is also well worth having.


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## greenbaggins (Sep 15, 2007)

I have a somewhat lengthy scholarly article on the passage, which I am trying to get published. An unrevised version (it doesn't deal with Towner's new commentary, or the second edition of Women in the Church, or Roman Wives, Roman Widows, or the commentaries by Ryken and Barcley) is on my blog here, here, and here. If anyone wants the revised version, shoot me a private message with your email on it, and I will send it.


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## Mathetes (Sep 16, 2007)

Now that I think of it, I think it's odd that the article I linked to is by Douglas Moo. Moo is Lutheran, and as far as I know, Lutherans allow female ministers. I dunno, maybe he's a 'conscientious objector' or something, but it seems strange that he would stick with a denomination that holds to unbiblical worship princples


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## Scott Shahan (Sep 17, 2007)

I am in a discussion with someone right now over "Paul saying that those are his words" this person is trying to make a distinciton between Paul's words and God's words. He doesn't subscribe to Inerrency and he uses this text to support his claim;

And in verse 12 Paul speaks and say's *"I do not permit*" are those the words of Paul and not specificly God's Word or teaching on the issue? But Paul speaking for himself in that given situation.


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## Iconoclast (Sep 17, 2007)

Scott,
I tried to address that issue in post #2. I think that the lengthy article offered in post #3 goes into detail on this. If the Spirit brought back to Paul's mind a teaching he heard directly from Jesus,or if he spoke on his own apostolic authority it was still binding as the word of God.
It is not like a red letter bible has the words of God in red, but the ones in the black print are optional. Take a stand with the person you are speaking withand pray that The Spirit will give him a heart to receive the truth,rather than to continue to oppose himself

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


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## Scott Shahan (Sep 17, 2007)

Iconoclast said:


> Scott,
> I tried to address that issue in post #2. I think that the lengthy article offered in post #3 goes into detail on this. If the Spirit brought back to Paul's mind a teaching he heard directly from Jesus,or if he spoke on his own apostolic authority it was still binding as the word of God.
> It is not like a red letter bible has the words of God in red, but the ones in the black print are optional. Take a stand with the person you are speaking withand pray that The Spirit will give him a heart to receive the truth,rather than to continue to oppose himself
> 
> ...





thanks Anthony


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