# Adam's concept of death



## Berean (Dec 25, 2010)

God warned Adam that if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die (Gen. 2:17). But what was Adam's understanding of death? Did he have any idea of what it meant to "surely die"? No creature had yet died, correct? Thanks.


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## Peairtach (Dec 25, 2010)

> No creature had yet died, correct?



Those who believe the days are longer than 24 hours would dispute this.

I think there is little if any biblical evidence that the days were anything but 24 hours.

This problem is the same as any with someone coming into the world at the age of 18, 21, 25, 33 or older, as Adam did. How would he know much or any of what God meant when e.g. He told him to labour, to keep the Sabbath, to make love to Eve, etc.? God would supply Adam with all the knowledge he needed. God knew what death was and could communicate the necessary knowledge to Adam either when He created him or in His daily and weekly special meetings with Adam or at some other time in between.


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## Berean (Dec 25, 2010)

So Adam was basically pre-programmed or hardwired (to use modern terminology) to know and understand what death would be?


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 25, 2010)

Do we need to experience death to have some comprehension of it, to fear it?

When we are young, frequently we can go for twenty years or more, and not know anyone who dies around us. I had Great-grandparents die before I was twenty, but most of them were not part of my life everyday, they simply stopped being in my life even infrequently. Not much different than if a kid I knew one year in school wasn't there next year, because the family moved away.

We scarcely know what death is intimately, until someone close to us dies. But that doesn't mean we don't know what death means, or what it is. Would it be surprising to know if God told Adam what death entailed, and not just that he would "die"? Why wouldn't he? It's not as though Adam wasn't created in possession of many faculties that his own children would need to be taught--language, for instance.

How did Adam conceive of death? Did he think of it in terms both of physical expiration, and spiritual alienation from God? Our minds and brains today are a wonder of construction. A brain functions (even in a fallen state) in a way that surpasses man-made supercomputers. Why would it surprise us that Adam could wisely contemplate the terminal results of the ending of life, even absent an empirical example? And who is to say that God might not have made a "creaturely example" for Adam's observation, assuming he needed one?

Isn't it most reasonable to say that God gave Adam everything he needed to know, to understand what should happen to him, if he disobeyed? Whether his understanding was a product of ratiocination, or experimentation, he knew enough to make his responsibility undeniable.

All we need to know is that Adam was given sufficient information to make the right choice. Whatever Adam contemplated concerning the promise of death, he didn't weigh the consequences deeply enough, he didn't consider the God of Threats to be true to his word.


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## amg (Dec 25, 2010)

The fundamental question at hand is not the _quantity_ of Adam's knowledge, but the _quality_ of God's communication. Certainly, the Scriptures contain many hard sayings but we must conclude that the Word of God is comprehensible because it has been revealed to us and God has not revealed to us senseless gibberish (Deuteronomy 29.29; 2 Peter 3.15-16). Rather, everything which God has recorded for us serves a purpose and has been recorded for our benefit and for our learning, that we may be throughly furnished unto all good works (Romans 4.23-24, 15.4; 2 Timothy 3.16-17). This is why the Word of God always accomplishes its purpose, because it is always full of purpose and meaning- it is a sharp and it is a living Word from the Holy God Jehovah (Isaiah 55.11; Hebrews 4.12).

As the confession affirms, what God has communicated in His Word is sensible, though at times difficult to fully grasp (perhaps you can help me grasp Ezekiel? or, Revelation? or, the gospel of John? Who can plumb the depths of God's Word?). Take John 3.16, it is so simple that a child can understand it, but at the same time, who can reach the depths of that overwhelming love which God loved us with? Who can reach the depths of that little word "_so_"? I pray that my heart will never cease to be thrilled by that little word "_so_" all the days of my life. We have fallen minds and the Scriptures are within our realm of understanding, how much more so Adam, who had a _perfect _ and an _unfallen _mind? When God spoke- Adam understood _perfectly._

This alone teaches us something concerning our own conversation. How often do we engage in mindless banter? How often do we talk solely to talk? What about our blog posts, or our forum posts? And, Facebook? When God speaks He speaks with purpose and there is always an end in sight- His own glory. Can we say the same? Much to my shame I know that I cannot.

Forgive my digressions. Furthermore, your question presupposes that knowledge is _a posteriori_, or based on experience. However, Scripture makes it plain that Adam was created perfect in _every way,_ including knowledge, yet he was without sin (Ecclesiastes 7.29; Colossians 3.10). This would indicate that knowledge is _a priori,_ because it was implanted by God and it was not based on his experience. When God covenanted with Adam the stipulations were perfectly clear and therefore Adam was without excuse (Romans 3.19). Adam knew what God had commanded him because God's communication is faultless and Adam knew what had been commanded him because he had a perfect understanding of what death was, though he had likely never witnessed death (Romans 5.12).


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## Zimon (Dec 27, 2010)

Richard Tallach said:


> > No creature had yet died, correct?
> 
> 
> Those who believe the days are longer than 24 hours would dispute this.
> I think there is little if any biblical evidence that the days were anything but 24 hours.


 
Well but do we know hoch many days or years were between Adams creation on the sixth day and the fall of Adam? I think the Bible doeas not give any information on this, so the Fall of Adam could have taken place many, many years after his creation, am I right? And if this was the case, some animals might have died already.


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## Peairtach (Dec 27, 2010)

> Well but do we know hoch many days or years were between Adams creation on the sixth day and the fall of Adam?



True. But it appears to have taken place before Havah (Eve) conceived, otherwise, I presume they'd have given birth to a sinless child. I don't know if this gives some indication of when Adam might have sinned after his creation.

Those who believe the days are 24-hour days tend to also believe that there was no animal death before Adam sinned, that being part of the curse.

Those who believe that the days are long periods of time tend to argue that animal death isn't part of the curse because the long ages that they posit tend to be in order to explain e.g. fossils that are reputed to be millions of years old.

The above are somewhat generalisations but tend to be some of the differences between YECs (Young Earth Creationists) and OECs (Old Earth Creationists).

The other alternative is theistic evolution, which is Liberal theology.


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## amg (Dec 27, 2010)

It would seem, from my study at least, that animals did not die until after the fall- because Adam and Eve were apparently vegetarians before the fall (Genesis 1.29-30, 9.3). Death entered the world when sin did and I don't think that we can limit this to spiritual death, the death mankind fell into was spiritual and physical and it affected animal life as well (Genesis 3.21; Romans 5.12). Additionally, I think the fact that the millennium is described with imagery of a predator not attacking what we know to be his prey points us to the pre-fall dispensation (Isaiah 11.6-7, 65.25).

While the Bible is relatively silent on the length of time that passed between Adam's creation and his fall into sin and misery, I think that we can safely say that it was a relatively short period of time. Perhaps, no more than a few months. I would base this conclusion on three things primarily.

Firstly, the fact that there is very little recorded in the Scriptures concerning man before the fall, which tells me that there was not a very long period of time before the fall.

Secondly, the fact that God has covenanted with the earth and as the night and day time were established so were the seasons and this leads me to believe that the fruit would have only been on the tree for the season and then it would have fallen and grown again the next season- but the fact that the Scriptures do not indicate any passing seasons leads me to believe that there was not any substantial length of time (Genesis 8.22; Jeremiah 33.20, 25).

And thirdly, the fact that Adam and Ever were given the command to be fruitful and multiply. Now we must remember that they were perfect in _every _way, and this leads me to believe that they were very virile: Eve could not have conceived before the fall or else the child would have been sinless (Genesis 1.28).

More or less, I think that years or even months is definitely out of the question, especially in light of the aforementioned reasons. I will refrain from sharing my own point of view in such a public forum, but either way, I would not stand too dogmatically on the issue.


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## au5t1n (Dec 27, 2010)

In _A Body of Divinity_ (the first of the three-part _A Body of Practical Divinity_), Thomas Watson argues that Adam and Eve probably fell on the day they were created, before the Sabbath even occurred. I found it very interesting, but not totally convincing. To be fair, he only says he is _inclined_ to believe so.

Thomas Watson, _A Body of Divinity_, Chapter 4 "The Fall," Section 2 "Adam's Sin:"



> How long did Adam continue in paradise before he fell?
> 
> Tostatus says, he fell the next day. Pererius says, he fell the eighth day after his creation. The most probable and received opinion is, that he fell the very same day in which he was created. So Irenaeus, Cyril, Epiphanius, and many others. The reasons which incline me to believe so are,
> 
> ...


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