# Christian Liberty



## Jordycbc23 (May 21, 2005)

my can of worms that i want to open is on our liberties as Christians. what liberites do we have as Christians (Hypothetically) do we have the right to smoke if we are of legal age and same goes for drinking in the lines of legal age and not abusing it. explain 

also what are other christian libirties that are taken for granted i.e. eating to much...


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## RamistThomist (May 21, 2005)

Christian liberty is the Freedom to obey Christ

[quite](Hypothetically) do we have the right to smoke if we are of legal age and same goes for drinking in the lines of legal age and not abusing it.[/quote]

It is more dangerous for you to eat a Big Mac than to smoke a cigar; same goes for drinking. More detail later.


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## Solo Christo (May 21, 2005)

Col 2:13-23

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. 

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations"” 21 "œDo not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)"”according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.


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## Solo Christo (May 21, 2005)

This is *not* a license to sin. The latter half of verse 23 is most important.


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## RamistThomist (May 21, 2005)

Luther is great help here:

"Do not suppose that the abuses of a thing may be avoided by prohibiting the thing itself. Men go wrong with women as well as wine. Should we then ban women?"


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## Puritan Sailor (May 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jordycbc23_
> 
> 
> my can of worms that i want to open is on our liberties as Christians. what liberites do we have as Christians (Hypothetically) do we have the right to smoke if we are of legal age and same goes for drinking in the lines of legal age and not abusing it. explain
> ...



1) Remember moderation: drinking, smoking, eating, is all fine. but abusing it is sin. Gluttony and drunkeness are sins. 
2) Remember your weaker brother. Not everyone, especially those from Fundamentalist backgrounds, understands Christian liberty the same way. You have to be aware of that and not flaunt your liberty and injure their conscience in the process.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 21, 2005)

to what has been said already. 

The best treatment I have ever read on Christian liberty is that by J.G. Vos here called The Separated Life.


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## Solo Christo (May 21, 2005)

Great reference, Andrew!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 21, 2005)

Thanks! I hope it is a blessing to others as it has been to myself.


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## Jordycbc23 (May 21, 2005)

is it a falsehood to say the wine in the NT is unfirminted (not a speller) in south arkansas this is what is said as a rebutle to drinking and is seen as almost the extent of an unforgivable sin but on top of that at the same time the same congregation puts a dip in their mouth or lights up a smoke outside the church but excommunicates (lack of better word) christians that are seen drinking is this a fair situation


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## turmeric (May 21, 2005)

No, or we wouldn't have been told not to be drunk on it! J.Vernon McGee (of otherwise sainted memory) has spread that yarn himself though I don't remember where he got it.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 21, 2005)

On the subject of the lawfulness of drinking alcoholic beverages, I would recommend Ken Gentry's _God Gave Wine_.


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## Jordycbc23 (May 21, 2005)

hey josh no the name doesnt ring a bell but iv only been around here three years i grew up in your area... magnolia area


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## Jordycbc23 (May 21, 2005)

so the big question "When do we take it to far" (Christian Liberties)


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## Jordycbc23 (May 21, 2005)

true


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## Arch2k (May 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jordycbc23_
> so the big question "When do we take it to far" (Christian Liberties)



A good sign that people have taken "it" too far, is when they get addicted. As christians, we are called not to be addicted to earthly pleasures. This raises these things above God who is to be first in everything.


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## matthew11v25 (May 22, 2005)

I agree with moderation (food, beer, etc). the question seems to then become what are we moderating? and what profit is it to our soul or survival? For example, many men have "moderatly" drank beer (not becoming addicted) but what profit is beer? it is not needed for survival such as food and so should be moderated much tighter. I believe christian liberty should be sharply taken in light of stewardship regarding things such as finance.


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## Robin (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jordycbc23_
> so the big question "When do we take it to far" (Christian Liberties)



Scripture and the Holy Spirit will "tell" you.

Enjoying my 20% ruby Port.....

:bigsmile:

Robin


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 22, 2005)

God's gifts are meant to be enjoyed (cf. Ps. 104.15), not flaunted (Rom. 14). That said, our consciences are not bound by the brother with the least understanding of Christian liberty because then there would be no Christian liberty for anybody. Rather, weak brethren should be educated -- compassionately -- so that we do not draw lines of demarcation regarding good and evil conduct that God has not drawn. We ought to be discerning about those around us, but we ought also to give testimony to the gifts of God and not treat them as evil because others think them so. 

Wine and tobacco are part of God's creation and wine in particular is commended by the Word of God in that it is repeatedly designated a blessing and especially in the context of the Lord's Supper where wine is ordained to represent the blood of Christ. 

It is not necessary for everyone to have a taste for wine or tobacco, but it is wrong to denigrate them or treat them as vices because fundamentalists see them that way. God's creation is good and these gifts redound to his glory when used lawfully.

Drinking With Calvin and Luther by Jim West


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## Craig (May 22, 2005)




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## Jordycbc23 (May 22, 2005)

is there anything that people try and label as a liberty not truely a liberty?


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## Solo Christo (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jordycbc23_
> is there anything that people try and label as a liberty not truely a liberty?


People use Rom 8:1 to defend all sorts of sin. For example, certain sexual activities.


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