# Origin(s) of sinful choices



## Leslie (Apr 9, 2014)

God turns our hearts toward Him and toward doing what is right. He does so by means of the Spirit, teaching us to distinguish the morally good from evil, making us inclined to choose the good. Is there a comparable/analogous manner in which Satan inclines humans (at least unbelievers, maybe believers also) to choose evil? In other words, are our sins merely a function of our innate depravity, or are they also a function of evil spiritual influences eminating from personal beings?


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## Scott1 (Apr 9, 2014)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter VI
> Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof
> ...


.


> Scripture Proofs
> 
> [1] GEN 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 2CO 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
> 
> ...


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## earl40 (Apr 9, 2014)

I asked the same question though how you phrased it is exellent. No one answered my same question because I think Chapter VI answers it. In other words, the "how" is answered from the fall. Satan influnences us by his direct work on Adam and Eve and ultimatly, though not directly, by our flesh which will not be eradicated till glory.


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## moral necessity (Apr 9, 2014)

Leslie said:


> God turns our hearts toward Him and toward doing what is right. He does so by means of the Spirit, teaching us to distinguish the morally good from evil, making us inclined to choose the good. Is there a comparable/analogous manner in which Satan inclines humans (at least unbelievers, maybe believers also) to choose evil? In other words, are our sins merely a function of our innate depravity, or are they also a function of evil spiritual influences eminating from personal beings?



I don't think Satan has an ability to incline our hearts directly. He is not a god. 
Our hearts are naturally inclined towards sin already, ever since the fall. 
He is, however, able to present various temptations before us to arouse our inclinations and stir them up.
The severity of his influence can certainly amount to a hardening, and sometimes even a possession.
But, overall, I think God alone is able to bend or incline the heart, like channels of water.
His seasonal wanings certainly allow our indwelling sin to be readily felt, and leave it more vulnerable to temptation.

Blessings!


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## Leslie (Apr 9, 2014)

I was thinking about Job. It seems clear that when the raiders came and killed all his sons and daughters, that there was more than innate depravity inspiring these raiders. Then there was the evil spirit from God that got into Saul. 

My thinking on this was inspired by all the wanton killing going on by the ROPeace, with renewed persecution of Christians. It is even risky to use the M/I words spelled correctly in posts. I have a sense that there is more to this than just random expressions of depravity, kind of like the glimpse we get in Job about what lay behind his multiple disasters. Is there something sinister behind this sudden outpouring of supremicism? Was there with the rise of brownshirts of the 1930's in Germany and Hitler?


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## earl40 (Apr 9, 2014)

moral necessity said:


> I don't think Satan has an ability to incline our hearts *directly*. He is not a god.



I agree.


moral necessity said:


> He is, however, able to present various temptations before us to arouse our inclinations and stir them up.
> The severity of his influence can certainly amount to a hardening, and sometimes even a possession.



So satan is able to somehow "present various temptations before us to arouse our inclinations" in an indirect way?

I would say our "inclinations" can be defined as our "heart".


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## earl40 (Apr 9, 2014)

Leslie said:


> I was thinking about Job. It seems clear that when the raiders came and killed all his sons and daughters, that there was more than innate depravity inspiring these raiders. Then there was the evil spirit from God that got into Saul.



The Lord withdrawing His restraining grace and allowing the evil of men to do what they want also can explain such.


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## Free Christian (Apr 9, 2014)

I wonder at times how we, mankind, can be as we are. Some sin is learned and yet some seems to just be there. If some incredible way some babies were placed some where on their own and incredibly be able to grow to adult, yeah I know would never be possible, but say they did. Would they know no sin? All act nicely? How would they act, a mixture of both? With no outside influence from others or media to show the way. I believe sin would grow from their own hearts.
How much and to what degree who knows but what would be guaranteed is it would be enough to separate them from God.


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## Scott1 (Apr 10, 2014)

Leslie said:


> I was thinking about Job. It seems clear that when the raiders came and killed all his sons and daughters, that there was more than innate depravity inspiring these raiders. Then there was the evil spirit from God that got into Saul.
> 
> My thinking on this was inspired by all the wanton killing going on by the ROPeace, with renewed persecution of Christians. It is even risky to use the M/I words spelled correctly in posts. I have a sense that there is more to this than just random expressions of depravity, kind of like the glimpse we get in Job about what lay behind his multiple disasters. Is there something sinister behind this sudden outpouring of supremicism? Was there with the rise of brownshirts of the 1930's in Germany and Hitler?



.


> Job 1
> 
> 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
> 
> ...


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## lynnie (Apr 10, 2014)

When you read about terrible killings where the criminal claims that voices told him to kill, like mothers drowning their babies, and otherwise nice, hardworking men killing their families when a voice orders them to, I suspect it is probably demons, as opposed to a split personality and one inner person speaking to the other inner person.

Demons in the bible made people cry out and cut themselves. I tend to think the modern thing with "cutting" ( 20% of all teens they say) is demonic, like the prophets of Baal gashing themselves. 

If you mean more ordinary and typical sins, I think we need to treat them as our sin nature. Galatians in the works of the flesh lists even sorcery as a work of the flesh. I would be slow to blame demons unless there are those voices coming at them, or frenzied self mutilating, or maybe gross perversions that could be an unclean spirit.


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## Leslie (Apr 10, 2014)

I wonder if Ephesians 6 bears on this. It is kind of hard to interpret that as Paul struggling against his own innate sinfulness. It appears that his worldview included evil spirit beings that actually do things.


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## a mere housewife (Apr 10, 2014)

The devil entered into Judas but he was no less morally culpable: his moral actions invited Satan's agenda. If we de-emphasise moral agency for magical views of the evil we are capable of, we are just playing games with evil.


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## Free Christian (Apr 10, 2014)

Yes Heidi, no one will ever be able to say "the devil made me do it".


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## earl40 (Apr 10, 2014)

a mere housewife said:


> The devil entered into Judas but he was no less morally culpable: his moral actions invited Satan's agenda. If we de-emphasise moral agency for magical views of the evil we are capable of, we are just playing games with evil.



Calvin below speaks how Satan effects people and it is not by not magical means as you have correctly pointed out Heidi. 

27. Satan entered into him. As it is certain that it was only at the instigation of Satan that Judas formed the design of committing so heinous a crime, why is it now said, for the first time, that Satan entered into him, who had already held the throne in his heart? But as they who are more fully confirmed in The faith which they formerly possessed are often said to believe, and thus an increase of their faith is called faith, so now that Judas is utterly given up to Satan, so as to be hurried on, by vehement impetuosity, to every extremity of evil, Satan is said to have entered into him. For as the saints make gradual progress, and in proportion to the new gifts by which they are continually enlarged, they are said to be filled with the Holy Spirit; so, in proportion as wicked men provoke the anger of God against themselves by their ingratitude, The Lord deprives them of his Spirit, of all light of reason, and, indeed, of all human feeling, and delivers them unreservedly to Satan. This is a dreadful vengeance of God, when men are given up to a reprobate mind, (Romans 1:28,) so that they scarcely differ at all from the brutes, and -- what is worse -- fall into horrid crimes from which the brutes themselves would shrink. We ought, therefore, to walk diligently in the fear of the Lord, lest, if we overpower his goodness by our wickedness, he at length give us up to the rage of, Satan.


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## Leslie (Apr 11, 2014)

Against exactly what or whom was Paul wrestling, or was it an internal struggle in his own soul?


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## Scott1 (Apr 11, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Against exactly what or whom was Paul wrestling, or was it an internal struggle in his own soul?





> Ephesians 4
> 
> 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
> 
> ...


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## earl40 (Apr 11, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Against exactly what or whom was Paul wrestling, or was it an internal struggle in his own soul?



The effects of the fall which is the result of satan.

14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away _by their own evil desire_ and enticed


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## py3ak (Apr 11, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Against exactly what or whom was Paul wrestling, or was it an internal struggle in his own soul?



Paul, like all Christians, was wrestling against the forces of darkness. The life of Christ furnishes an illustration of how that wrestling takes place. Paul wrestled as Christ did, when he said to his own disciple and dear friend, "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." The solicitation to spare oneself - to think that one is too elevated or too pure or too special to undergo the cross is a diabolic suggestion, even when it is prompted by natural affection or arises from loving believers. This should put us on our guard lest we give place to the devil, whether by hearing his solicitations from others, or whether by becoming ourselves his agents of deceit and offense.


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## Marcus417 (Apr 11, 2014)

a mere housewife said:


> The devil entered into Judas but he was no less morally culpable: his moral actions invited Satan's agenda. If we de-emphasise moral agency for magical views of the evil we are capable of, we are just playing games with evil.



Exactly The possession was a consequence of his sin and he was morally responsible for that consequence. A good parrellel is alcoholsim (or any addiction). even though there may be other contributing factors that speed up the process at its basic level addiction occurs from consistent immoral choices and the addiction is a consequence. To not hold Judas morally responsible would be akin to a judge accepting alcoholism as a reason to dismiss a DUI.


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