# Is God immutable?



## JM (Dec 19, 2006)

Is God immutable or does God change His mind? Does God hate us as sinners then change His mind when we believe and then loves us? Does God love and hate us after we are covered by the blood of Christ? Does the blood of Christ remove wrath but not hate?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 20, 2006)

We confuse our definition of Biblical love by trying to bring sentiment and emotion into it. Love is simply the preference of one for another. God's love is a choosing love (preference) and, in fact, election is a good equivalent for the word 'love'. God's love is uncoditional and unchanging and therefore what it is in eternity it must remain in time, hence, election.

When we choose a spouse we are choosing, electing and prefering one over all others. When we love a brother or sister in Christ we are choosing to prefer that person even at the risk of our own self interest.

The one sentence would be - Love is the preference of one for another.

So God does not change. Election is from eternity and it demonstrates God's unchanging love and mercy just as his wrath is set from eternity to demonstrate his justice. Both his love and wrath are qualities of God's holiness and glory.


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## Blueridge Believer (Dec 20, 2006)

Hbr 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: 
Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 
Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 
Hbr 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


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## alwaysreforming (Dec 20, 2006)

One way in which I think about God's immutability is this: since God is absolutely perfect in all of His ways/attributes/etc., he can't change. If He changed, would He be moving towards something inferior or superior? Certainly, He would not be getting worse. And if there were a better way, God would already BE like that.


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

> God's love is uncoditional and unchanging and therefore what it is in eternity it must remain in time, hence, election.



Agreed. If God doesn't change His mind concerning us, does He always view us as saved?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> Agreed. If God doesn't change His mind concerning us, does He always view us as saved?



I guess, technically I would say 'no', it that we are saved and we are being saved (justification and sanctification).

We are elected in eternity but we are called in history, those would be the distictives I see in the logical order of salvation. See other threads on the 'ordo salutis'.


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## toddpedlar (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> Agreed. If God doesn't change His mind concerning us, does He always view us as saved?



There is such a thing as temporal fulfillment of God's electing purposes... so perhaps a better way to put it is that He always views us as HIS, but not all necessary things have come to pass in our individual lives, until we are taken to be with Him. Recall God's words in Acts 18:10 - 'for I have many people in this city'. Paul was not to be hurt, because there were many in the city (Corinth) yet to be taught, and to come to faith. Those people, even before the Word was preached to them, God viewed as His - even though it would be improper to view them technically as "saved". 

my


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 20, 2006)

Bibliography on Open Theism here.

rsc


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 20, 2006)

No, God does not change. 

He accommodates himself to our weakness, however, by describing himself in pictures that we can understand. Thus he says he has ears, eyes, a nose and so forth.

We're to read such anthropomorphic and anthropopathic passages in the light of the texts that tell us that God, in himself, does not change. Perhaps the classic case/text in this regard is Mal 3:6-7 to which Muller (1983!) pointed as his early and definitive response to Clark Pinnock. Either God doesn't change or he an incompetent, Marcionite, god. In fact, as Mal 3 shows, God's relations to us, in which he speaks of himself as changing, are logically premised on his changelessness. We can trust him only in the case that he is changeless and therefore faithful to his promises.

This doesn't mean that God is unfeeling or remote. He is both "with us" (Immanuel!) and transcendent. He is able to do and be both. He feels everything that is appropriate for him to feel all the time from all eternity, but he doesn't move from one feeling (e.g., joy) to another (e.g., rage) as we do. Those images (e.g., his "repenting" in Gen 6) of him moving from one state to another are to illustrate his holy wrath against sin. If we had no such illustrations we would know much less about God and that would defeat the purpose of revelation wouldn't it?

It's perverse, however, to use God's kind accommodation to our weakness against him to make him into a virtual member of the Greco-Roman pantheon.

rsc


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

Then we are justified from eternity, right!


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> Then we are justified from eternity, right!



No. We are elect from eternity, outside of time. Justification is applied inside of time. 

Revelation 13:8 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Example: Was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? Outside of time, yes. Inside, it occurred at Calvary 2000 years ago.

Justification occurs in time following conversion.

I suggest Matt's book "The Two Wills of God". The book will reconcile the seemingly contradictory statements found in scripture.


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> No. We are elect from eternity, outside of time. Justification is applied inside of time. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> So (and please correct if I ill define), We can look at Justification (once we come to Christ in time) as a "pronouncement" in time of what was decreed in eternity. And Sanctification as our continual growth in grace (by the power of the Holy Spirit) until the final "consummation" when we will finally be glorified (Glorification).
> ...


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 20, 2006)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Scott Bushey said:
> 
> 
> > No. We are elect from eternity, outside of time. Justification is applied inside of time. QUOTE]
> ...


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks Scot.


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> No. We are elect from eternity, outside of time. Justification is applied inside of time.
> 
> Revelation 13:8 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
> 
> ...



The Two Wills of God will be added to my ever growing list of must reads. 

So, God in eternity views us as His elect and chooses us, but in time, God hates us as sinners until we have faith? 

~JM~


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> The Two Wills of God will be added to my ever growing list of must reads.
> 
> So, God in eternity views us as His elect and chooses us, but in time, God hates us as sinners until we have faith?
> 
> ~JM~



Yes; Until the time we are converted, we are separated by sin.

Romans 5:8-10 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 20, 2006)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Bibliography on Open Theism here.
> 
> rsc


Is God, God?


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> Yes; Until the time we are converted, we are separated by sin.
> 
> Romans 5:8-10 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.




I'm just trying to understand, God sees us as separated by sin and then changes His mind when we believe so that we are not seen as separated by sin?


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## toddpedlar (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> I'm just trying to understand, God sees us as separated by sin and then changes His mind when we believe so that we are not seen as separated by sin?



No, not at all. What's wrong with God changing an evaluation? That's not changing His mind. 

When we say that God is immutable, it does not mean that He is incapable of evaluating us differently depending on how our circumstances change IN TIME. Justification is NOT a state that characterizes a person throughout eternity, just as a person who is elect is not regenerated until such a time as the Holy Spirit works in his heart. The fact that a person is born unregenerate and dies regenerate does not mean that in some way God changed His mind about the person. Rather, it (as in the case of justification) is simply something that reflects the fact that we finite creatures live IN TIME, and move from one state (unregenerate to regenerate, or unjustified to justified) to another. 

Again - the fact that we are finite beings, that are subject to time and temporal changes does NOT (I repeat, NOT) say ANYTHING about who God is and whether His mind is being changed or not. 

When you watch a child grow up, and on one day he is 4 (and you say "he is 4") and the next day he is 5 (and you say "Aha, he is 5!") does that mean you have changed your mind? NO, of course not. You are simply attributing an appropriate age to that child because of circumstances in his life - that is, that he passed from his 4th year into his fifth. NO CHANGE took place in YOU. 

Same is true for God. I hope that's clearer...


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

Could you define evaluation? I looked it up and evaluation seems to be the collection and analysis of data needed to make decisions, if this is true, then God changes His decision based upon His evaluation. Websters reads, "to determine or fix the value of" and "to determine the significance, worth, or condition of usually by careful appraisal and study." If this is true, God sees us as sinners then changes His mind based upon "careful apprasial and study" of us. God changes how He values us from sinner to saint. 

It all seems like a word game, I apologize and will sit back and think on it.


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## toddpedlar (Dec 20, 2006)

JM said:


> Could you define evaluation? I looked it up and evaluation seems to be the collection and analysis of data needed to make decisions, if this is true, then God changes His decision based upon His evaluation. Websters reads, "to determine or fix the value of" and "to determine the significance, worth, or condition of usually by careful appraisal and study." If this is true, God sees us as sinners then changes His mind based upon "careful apprasial and study" of us. God changes how He values us from sinner to saint.
> 
> It all seems like a word game, I apologize and will sit back and think on it.



Well, you really ought not to apply Webster's definitions (which involve man, and human decisionmaking) to God. He's beyond such characterization, and it's always wrong to make God into human image. Besides, when I said "evaluate", I wasn't being that precise with the language - i was simply trying to make the point that what changes is our status IN TIME. The point of this whole discussion is that God does NOT change, even when he changes ways IN TIME of dealing with people. 

God sees us as ELECT in eternity past. That does NOT mean he sees us as JUSTIFIED in eternity past. Will all the elect be JUSTIFIED in eternity future? An unqualified YES. Will all the elect be SANCTIFIED in eternity future? Another unqualified yes. Are ALL the elect JUSTIFIED NOW? NO. Does this mean God changes?

NO

NO

It's really quite simple. Does our change of status from unjustified to justified at some point IN TIME mean that God has changed his mind somehow based on data he didn't know before? Of course NOT. Does this change of status mean that God changed his mind at all? NO. There is no "change of decision" that you're talking about. I don't know where that language is coming from. He's not changing decisions... but regarding us differently IN TIME. That is NO change in God at all.

Did you read my analogy about the changing age of another person? Did that make any sense to you? 

When one goes from "unjustified" to "justified" IN TIME through God's action, that reflects NO change in God. I can't state it any more plainly than that.


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## JM (Dec 20, 2006)

toddpedlar said:


> Well, you really ought not to apply Webster's definitions (which involve man, and human decisionmaking) to God.



I need to understand what you mean when you use different words, or show how it's used in the Bible, etc. 



> He's beyond such characterization, and it's always wrong to make God into human image.



Agreed, but that's not the issue. I'm seeking to understand what you wrote and how you characterized God.



> Besides, when I said "evaluate", I wasn't being that precise with the language - i was simply trying to make the point that what changes is our status IN TIME.



I fully understand that you were not being precise, that's why I asked you to explain.



> The point of this whole discussion is that God does NOT change, even when he changes ways IN TIME of dealing with people.



We're not talking about how God deals with people in time but how God views His elect. 



> God sees us as ELECT in eternity past.



Agreed.



> That does NOT mean he sees us as JUSTIFIED in eternity past. Will all the elect be JUSTIFIED in eternity future? An unqualified YES.



Then God, according to what you wrote, changes how He views His people. 



> Will all the elect be SANCTIFIED in eternity future? Another unqualified yes.



Lets stay on topic, we're talking about justification, not sanctification.



> Are ALL the elect JUSTIFIED NOW? NO. Does this mean God changes?
> 
> NO
> 
> NO



If all the elect are not seen as in Christ now, God then must change how He views His elect.



> It's really quite simple.



Then why am I still confused as to what you're saying!  



> Does our change of status from unjustified to justified at some point IN TIME mean that God has changed his mind somehow based on data he didn't know before? Of course NOT.



Ahhhhh, but is God's view of the unjustified and justifed affected by time or is God's knowledge and wisdom timeless? It seems we are looking at justification from our point of view IN TIME as you wrote and not from eternity, where God's decree to save the elect are not affected by time, but do take place in time.  Don't get upset if my questions seem silly, I hope to get to the bottom of this, with your help if you're willing. 



> Does this change of status mean that God changed his mind at all? NO. There is no "change of decision" that you're talking about.



So you agree then, God views the elect as saved and doesn't change His mind concerning the status of His elect? From eternity through time the justified are understood by God to be justified?



> I don't know where that language is coming from. He's not changing decisions... but regarding us differently IN TIME. That is NO change in God at all.



According to Webster regarding means, "to consider and appraise usually from a particular point of view." This would mean that God's particular point of view, in time or eternity, changes...?



> Did you read my analogy about the changing age of another person? Did that make any sense to you?



I understood it, but will respond with, "He's beyond such characterization, and it's always wrong to make God into human image." 



> When one goes from "unjustified" to "justified" IN TIME through God's action, that reflects NO change in God. I can't state it any more plainly than that.



Then God must view us, if there is no change in God, as justified from eternity. I think. I'm not trying to be a jerk but this topic has been kicking around in my little [tiny] brain for a few years and I can seem to sort it out. I pray and talk to a few people around me but no one seems interested. 

~JM~


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 21, 2006)

JM said:


> I need to understand what you mean when you use different words, or show how it's used in the Bible, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If God decrees that I die at 50 years old, am I already dead; does God see me as dead already. If God decree's that I will be justified _in time_ at age _whatever_, does God see me already justified prior to that age? No. Prior to the propitiation of Christ, we were all enemies of God. When God looks upon me now, He see's His son Christ Jesus, the mediator.


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## toddpedlar (Dec 21, 2006)

JM said:


> We're not talking about how God deals with people in time but how God views His elect.



I beg to differ. We live IN TIME. How God deals with us IN TIME is completely relevant.

What is wrong with God changing the temporal way he deals with us (which is the only way he can interact with us, by the way) in terms of our justification? Why do you insist that this means God is not immutable? The fact that God steps into time to deal with us, and deals with us DIFFERENTLY as time goes on is NOT a sign of changes WITHIN the GODHEAD. 



> Lets stay on topic, we're talking about justification, not sanctification.



Actually this is very much on topic - for this is another change IN TIME of God's elect. Again, as we are progressively sanctified, does this mean GOD changes? NO. The fact that, in time, God knows that we are being changed by Him does NOT mean God is changing in any way. 



> If all the elect are not seen as in Christ now, God then must change how He views His elect.



Fine. What's wrong with this? Why is this a "change in God"? It's not. We are IN TIME. There is a time in which our sins are covered, and before that time our sins were NOT. Does this mean God changed? NO. How much plainer can I be with this? God already has for us the whole chain of salvation, from calling to glorification. Are we glorified now? NO. Will we be in eternity future? YES. Does this mean that God is mutable? NO, NO a thousand times NO.



> Ahhhhh, but is God's view of the unjustified and justifed affected by time or is God's knowledge and wisdom timeless?



Of course it is timeless, however WE ARE IN TIME. Time progresses. Does this mean God changes? NO. How does God deal with us? IN TIME, there is no other way. When God deals with us today, he is faithful to deal with us appropriately. When He deals with us tomorrow, there may be a different way in which he deals with us, according to various things that have happened in the intervening day. Does this mean God changes? NO. Does this mean God deals with us differently (possibly) on different days? YES. 



> It seems we are looking at justification from our point of view IN TIME as you wrote and not from eternity, where God's decree to save the elect are not affected by time, but do take place in time.



Justification IS A TEMPORAL ACT. It can't be separated from history. Does God view one of the elect as one who WILL BE JUSTIFIED? Yes. Always. Forever, from eternity past. Does he view the elect as perpetually justified? NO, because Justification is something that takes place in the realm of time. 



> So you agree then, God views the elect as saved and doesn't change His mind concerning the status of His elect?



Please define "change his mind concerning the status of his elect", and why God's temporal dealings with us signal a change in God's being that would make him mutable.



> From eternity through time the justified are understood by God to be justified?



Absolutely not.



> Then God must view us, if there is no change in God, as justified from eternity.
> 
> ~JM~



I just don't get it. Since we aren't at all times justified, God simply cannot view us as at all times justified. We WILL be justified (and sanctified, and glorified) at the appropriate time. God knows this, and foreknows this, and predestines this... but He never changes in any of that. It is not GOD who is doing the changing, but us. 

I can't say it any more plainly. If you can't accept this, then I suggest we move on to different conversations. It's really starting to be pointless, I fear.


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## turmeric (Dec 21, 2006)

Y'all quit tryin' to scrute the inscrutible!


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 21, 2006)

Jason,

This idea is very difficult. From a strictly "man-thinking" philosophical viewpoint, God must either be completely transcendent or completely immanent. God, as He reveals Himself to us, is both transcendent and immanent. He is both a God that is not bound by time but is aware of time and can interact with man in time. Philosophers cry foul over such a concept but God is not bound by human limitations with respect to our limited premises with which to make logical conclusions regarding the nature of God.

This much we know: God is not a man that He should change His mind. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Nevertheless, He does Covenant with man, He interacts with man, He communes with man, and has been among us in time.

It is enough for me to know both. There is a bit more to it but that's the basic idea of it.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 21, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> Yes; Until the time we are converted, we are separated by sin.
> 
> Romans 5:8-10 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.




Scott, Romans 5:8-10 does not say that God hates us until we are converted. It says just the opposite. He loves us 'while we were yet sinners'. God hates sin, and God's hates the reprobate but I do not see where God's hates his elect. Isn't his love for the elect part of his eternal covenant with them?

You are correct in saying we are separated by sin, how ever that separation is limited to certain respects.


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 21, 2006)

That's very funny. 

I didn't know there was such a dialect in Portland. I guess, you are South of Washington.

rsc



turmeric said:


> Y'all quit tryin' to scrute the inscrutible!


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## JM (Dec 21, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Jason,
> 
> This idea is very difficult. From a strictly "man-thinking" philosophical viewpoint, God must either be completely transcendent or completely immanent. God, as He reveals Himself to us, is both transcendent and immanent. He is both a God that is not bound by time but is aware of time and can interact with man in time. Philosophers cry foul over such a concept but God is not bound by human limitations with respect to our limited premises with which to make logical conclusions regarding the nature of God.
> 
> ...



Thanks Rich, I think I understand your response. You're saying that I'm beginning with philosophy and trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, right? Instead of accepting both the decree from eternity with the action in time, as the Bible states it, I've been trying to “scrute the inscrutible!”

Instead of a pile facts placed before me, as others have done, you've shown me I started off on the wrong foot...at least that what I got after thinking and rethinking your post.

Thanks folks.

~JM~


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 21, 2006)

I think Dr. Matt said it well, speaking in this vein:

We aren't ever viewed all alone, but in connection to our federal head. As we are "in Adam" we are objects of his wrath--deservedly so. For the elect this is not an eternal, forever condition; for the non-elect it is. For our experience in Adam, however, God is eternally angry toward that. He punished Christ in our place for that.

As we are "in Christ," God loves us in him, in his love for him. Since we are elect in him from all time, he loves us in him from all time, but in time we aren't always in him.

We experience changes in time, for we are bound temporally. God, who is eternal, never adjusts to our temporal changes. We change in respect to him.

Hope this is helpful. (Thanks Matt)


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## AV1611 (Dec 21, 2006)

JM said:


> Is God immutable or does God change His mind? Does God hate us as sinners then change His mind when we believe and then loves us? Does God love and hate us after we are covered by the blood of Christ? Does the blood of Christ remove wrath but not hate?



Good thread Jason  

Well what I can understand is that we are eternally justified 

A good article: http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/Justification2.htm


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 21, 2006)

JM said:


> Thanks Rich, I think I understand your response. You're saying that I'm beginning with philosophy and trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, right? Instead of accepting both the decree from eternity with the action in time, as the Bible states it, I've been trying to “scrute the inscrutible!”
> 
> Instead of a pile facts placed before me, as others have done, you've shown me I started off on the wrong foot...at least that what I got after thinking and rethinking your post.
> 
> ...



It is not irreconcilable. It is Gods two wills that refine the thinking and clearly reconcile the idea..


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 21, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> Scott, Romans 5:8-10 does not say that God hates us until we are converted. It says just the opposite. He loves us 'while we were yet sinners'. God hates sin, and God's hates the reprobate but I do not see where God's hates his elect. Isn't his love for the elect part of his eternal covenant with them?
> 
> You are correct in saying we are separated by sin, how ever that separation is limited to certain respects.



Bob,
I hear you. Thats why I provided that verse. However, Does God love His enemies. Romans also calls us 'enemies'. In the divided sense, God hates His enemies; in the compound, he does not.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 21, 2006)

Thank you Scott, I'll have to fire up my steam powered concordance and do some more thinking on this. Maybe I'll even find some time to read Matt's book.


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## AV1611 (Dec 22, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> It is not irreconcilable. It is Gods two wills that refine the thinking and clearly reconcile the idea..



Two wills? Surely you meant one will but one which must be viewed in two ways.


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## JM (Dec 23, 2006)

What does it mean for God to have "two wills?"


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 23, 2006)

JM said:


> What does it mean for God to have "two wills?"



As I have earlier stated, it reconciles the struggle you seem to be wrestling with. Read Owen or get Matts book.


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