# Arminianism = Will Worship?



## jd.morrison (Dec 26, 2008)

Hey all!

I was checking out some media at www.cprf.co.com and there is a Rev. Angus Stewart on there who was debating an Arminian (he himself being of the Reformed camp) and in it he referred to it as Will Worship. I have never heard it called that and was wondering what people thought about it.

You can check out the debate here...

Calvinism Resources

Disclaimer - I do not agree with everything on this site, that being said it does have a wealth of information that is quite edifying...


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 26, 2008)

While there are some brilliant minds here that will discuss arminianism (as a thread I posted last night proves) it's my opinion (NOTE: This is simply my opinion and not just about the PB!) that many Calvinists/Doctrine of Grace people will not delve too deeply into the heresy of arminianism because it's too difficult to consider that it might be damnable. 

For example, when I've tried to discuss such with family/friends they will get very defensive (even if they themselves are not arminian) but when I compare the works idea to Romanism they demand that it's not the same. While that's basically true, arminians today insist that they contribute to their salvation and can contribute to the loss of it upon their will as well. While Romanists believe in works far deeper than that it's still belief in works.

Many people I love are staunch arminians and I don't want to believe they are lost but I can't help but wonder if it's a possibility.


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## jd.morrison (Dec 26, 2008)

PuritanBouncer said:


> While there are some brilliant minds here that will discuss arminianism (as a thread I posted last night proves) it's my opinion (NOTE: This is simply my opinion and not just about the PB!) that many Calvinists/Doctrine of Grace people will not delve too deeply into the heresy of arminianism because it's too difficult to consider that it might be damnable.
> 
> For example, when I've tried to discuss such with family/friends they will get very defensive (even if they themselves are not arminian) but when I compare the works idea to Romanism they demand that it's not the same. While that's basically true, arminians today insist that they contribute to their salvation and can contribute to the loss of it upon their will as well. While Romanists believe in works far deeper than that it's still belief in works.
> 
> Many people I love are staunch arminians and I don't want to believe they are lost but I can't help but wonder if it's a possibility.



That is the thought tugging in the back of my mind. How can someone be among the elect and get things soo terribly wrong. I just left the P.C.(U.S.A.) in which I was told that the Wesley's efforts in the Church would be hard to surpass. But if they hated the true Gospel then how have they put forth any faithful effort to aid the Church, they have done everything to hinder the Church. I was quietly told that they are believers they are just wrong about said issue. I don't think this is an area where Christian Liberty can be taken...

While I am not convince one way or the other as to the correct answer, I think that it is a question that people are sweeping under the rug and avoiding...


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 26, 2008)

Absolutely! Look where it's gotten the Church today. Jesus said the path is narrow and few find it, right? Like you, I am not completely convinced but I lean heavily towards arminianism being damnable heresy.


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## Theogenes (Dec 26, 2008)

Read the Canons of Dort. They don't mince words regarding Arminianism.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 26, 2008)

About 20 years ago, my brother-in-law wrote a scathing 80-page book (not widely circulated outside our part of SC) which in part addressed this issue. He has been black listed by many ministers in our area, and even by some in our presbytery because of some of his harsh words on will-worship. It is a touchy subject.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 26, 2008)

Any way to get that book?


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## Confessor (Dec 26, 2008)

As has been implied on this thread, there are degrees of Arminianism, in terms of how vehemently the belief is held. Also, from what I have seen, the more Calvinism is misunderstood, the more it is disliked.

I can imagine that belief in Arminianism is damnable, but only insofar as people properly understand Calvinism and subsequently reject it -- but that is just so uncommon, making it difficult to state a general principle about Arminians' being saved or damned.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 26, 2008)

Which is why I said in my other thread I think it comes down to arminians saying that they wouldn't serve a God like "that", meaning the God that predestines/didn't die for all/etc. I used to be one of those people and believed I was saved spouting such garbage.


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## TaylorOtwell (Dec 26, 2008)

Confessor said:


> As has been implied on this thread, there are degrees of Arminianism, in terms of how vehemently the belief is held. Also, from what I have seen, the more Calvinism is misunderstood, the more it is disliked.
> 
> I can imagine that belief in Arminianism is damnable, but only insofar as people properly understand Calvinism and subsequently reject it -- but that is just so uncommon, making it difficult to state a general principle about Arminians' being saved or damned.



I agree. 

Honestly, I have met very few people who *consistently* reject the doctrines of grace. I'm not sure I would consider the confused system they end up believing damnable - as they still may, in my opinion, receive and rest in Christ as the propitiation for their sins. 

However, consistent Pelagianism is so opposed to the gospel, I don't see how it could not be damning.

May we pray that the Lord would open their eyes to the riches of his grace, and make us humble that he has opened ours!


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## JBaldwin (Dec 26, 2008)

PuritanBouncer said:


> Any way to get that book?



The book was self-published, but I can see if he still has a copy around somewhere.


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## jd.morrison (Dec 26, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> May we pray that the Lord would open their eyes to the riches of his grace, and make us humble that he has opened ours!


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## Confessor (Dec 26, 2008)

PuritanBouncer said:


> Which is why I said in my other thread I think it comes down to arminians saying that they wouldn't serve a God like "that", meaning the God that predestines/didn't die for all/etc. I used to be one of those people and believed I was saved spouting such garbage.



What I was saying is that they are not rejecting a pure, properly understood Calvinism, but rather a foolish caricature of Reformed theology, i.e. that God makes us robots, that we have no freedom whatsoever (meaning no sense of choice at all), that a limited atonement is actually _less_ than an unlimited atonement (the same effect but to fewer people), etc.

Seriously, if every single person on Earth understood Reformed theology for what it is, and all other doctrines for what they are, there would be a ridiculously large number of Calvinists. Too many people accept what a one-sided and shallow source may tell them without searching further. It's sad.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 26, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> PuritanBouncer said:
> 
> 
> > Any way to get that book?
> ...



Cool, just let me know


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## Confessor (Dec 26, 2008)

As a bit of an extension of what I said above, Gordon Clark wisely notes how people tend to view determinism, to the type that Calvinism adheres:

Before quoting a second contemporary, it is well to note and emphasize that the reason - and has anyone found any other really basic reason? - for introducing the concept of freedom, either in its most extreme form of power of contrary choice or in some more modified form, is to hold man responsible. Could it be shown that man’s responsibility does not necessarily depend upon freedom, theology would be freed from an annoying problem.​
Determinism and Responsibility


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## jd.morrison (Dec 26, 2008)

PuritanBouncer said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > PuritanBouncer said:
> ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 26, 2008)

Back to the original question about whether Arminianism is will worship. I believe it is. Its theology essentially replaces one doctrine of God with another as to His foreknowledge, decree, and plan for redemption. Will worship is really another term for idolatry where the God of the Scriptures is replaced by another God that is more palatable or controllable to the human mind. In the case of Arminianism, God's nature is changed to reflect a less repugnant notion to the human mind that doesn't do injury to a desire by men to make God's work dependent upon their free will actions.


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## jd.morrison (Dec 26, 2008)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Back to the original question about whether Arminianism is will worship.



Sorry, I will chalk that one up to ADD! LOL!


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