# Christ’s mediation to covenant children



## deleteduser99 (Mar 31, 2018)

I’ve done a little searching on PB and still desire a bit more insight into the question: how does Christ mediate for covenant children who are unconverted?

For a few practical reasons I’ve cut down the content of the original post drastically, and have decided it’s best to relegate myself to only inquiring.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 31, 2018)

There's two ways of relating to the covenant: internal and external.

Jesus is THE Mediator of the covenant. His mediator-functions are exercised both toward the visible, as well as toward the invisible church. The other side does not agree that the New Covenant has a visible and mixed aspect. They take the "all will know me" declaration as a complete description of the covenant-state, and exclude any faithless (purely external) participation.

So, there's no "blood of the covenant" to trample underfoot, that has even in an external manner "sanctified" such persons. That statement is rendered a hypothetical. Because in that view, Jesus has never been in any conception their Mediator.

Is there mediation for unconverted, but (known to God) elect persons? For all of them, there is an historical moment when passing from death to life they are "owned" as it were by Christ. Even prior he was working upon them in this way or that. But in the case of an elect and baptized infant, that "ownership" is declared almost as soon as he is brought into the world, and ideally begins that submission to the means of grace that will be for his eternal salvation--without undue fretting over when that inflection point precisely is for him.

Christ is the Mediator for his church, and the child has been formally admitted to the church. Every member, regardless of when they joined the church, must say from the heart "THE Mediator is MY Mediator." for the assurance that those Benefits: life, salvation, heaven, are his. That is the exercise of faith, by which the means are effectual.

Perhaps the best way to say it is: Christ is the Mediator for the elect infants, in the same way he's the Mediator for the elect adults. He simply acts toward all individually according as he exercises his works of grace toward them, according to his own timetable and promise. And for all the rest he is simply the Mediator of that covenant which they pretend association through the administration of the church, while secretly despising him and his benefits. The are like ground that drinks in the rain, but bears thorns and briers.

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## Cymro (Mar 31, 2018)

Were not the children baptised into the cloud and water and received the benefits as well as the adults? Christ mediates His goodness, for God is good to Israel. Goodness being what He is and not an attribute. The Psalmist wrote,” oh how great( abundant)is His goodness”; and forebearance, longsuffering, loving kindness all spring from that fountain. But the verse continues, “which Thou hast laid up for them that fear Thee, which Thou hast wrought for them that trust in Thee.” He mediates that which is profitable to His elect, whether adult or child, for their salvation, preservation, sanctifiactation, and glorification. His goodness provides the necessary grace and faith.
But He is also “good to all”, a universal goodness over all His works. Rather than style that common grace, I would hold that it is a manifestation of His goodness or beneficence. So the unconverted Israelite did experience His goodness in provision, deliverance from Pharoah, and derived benefits from being associated with the elect, and many other blessings. But they squandered His blessing and rejected the goodness extended to them, though He was long suffering to them.

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## dtaylor3 (Apr 1, 2018)

Harley said:


> I’ve done a little searching on PB and still desire a bit more insight into the question: how does Christ mediate for covenant children who are unconverted?
> 
> For a few practical reasons I’ve cut down the content of the original post drastically, and have decided it’s best to relegate myself to only inquiring.


I think the first thing I need to be answered before providing an adequate response is what does mediate mean when you use the term?


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 1, 2018)

dtaylor3 said:


> I think the first thing I need to be answered before providing an adequate response is what does mediate mean when you use the term?



The question is typically posed by Reformed/Covenantal Baptist brethren, so I’m just as interested to know the RB definition.

Though, I would say mediation is the representation of the interests of both God and man to each party. God does not bless any man, and no man has any access to God or benefit from Him, except through Christ.

So would you agree or alter this?


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## dtaylor3 (Apr 1, 2018)

Harley said:


> The question is typically posed by Reformed/Covenantal Baptist brethren, so I’m just as interested to know the RB definition.
> 
> Though, I would say mediation is the representation of the interests of both God and man to each party. God does not bless any man, and no man has any access to God or benefit from Him, except through Christ.
> 
> So would you agree or alter this?



My view is he only mediates on behalf of the elect if you use mediate in that terminology. Just because someone's parent is elect does not mean he mediates on their behalf as well.


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 2, 2018)

dtaylor3 said:


> My view is he only mediates on behalf of the elect if you use mediate in that terminology. Just because someone's parent is elect does not mean he mediates on their behalf as well.



Actually, that definition leaves the door wide open for the non-elect to be blessed by the mediation of Christ as well, even if it’s not savingly.

Will respond to other posts later.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 2, 2018)

Do unregenerate children in Credo churches receive blessings, i.e. living under a gospel oriented family, prayer, etc., church family and mentoring, the love of the brethren? This may be secondary mediation or (m)ediation-whichever u prefer.

Christ mediates for both the elect and non-elect: for the elect, as His people; for the unregenerate and reprobate, to condemnation.


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 2, 2018)

Brothers Bruce, Jeff, Scott, I think you’ve each touched the common thing I’m getting at, so I have one response to all three posts.

Does all this mean He does not mediate the substance only, but also the administration of the Covenant of Grace? Thus, the covenant ordinances (preaching, prayer, worship, baptism, Lords Table) coming to false brothers and their acceptance in the visible membership is Christ’s doing as well?

There is another mediation I am curious about: Christ in Genesis 1. In verse 1:2 it says the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters; but we know the Spirit does not proceed from the Father only, but the Father and the Son. Taken further, not only does Christ send the Spirit for creation, but we know too that the Spirit holds all things together even now, and it’s by Christ all things in the created world are held together even now (Hebrews 1:3). In Genesis 6 the Spirit strives with men who would never be converted, and again He comes from Christ.

It can’t possibly be denied that Christ is the one who does all these things, The Spirit as His agent. However, I’m not aware that in these contexts there is any kind of covenant in place. So the Spirit by Christ as far as I can see sent preachers to those who would be destroyed, but there’s no covenant relationship with God.

Yet Christ is the one administrating the means of biological life and conversion. The order as I understand is that (forgive me if this is simplidtic), the Father decrees all that comes to pass, Christ bridges the gap between God and the created world and brings the decreed blessings to the created world, and the Spirit is His agent to execute the blessings. So, it looks entirely like mediation. Do I have that right?

But then there is this language from the Westminster:

_The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant._

So how did God condescend without a covenant context? Unless the Covenant of a Life is how He did it before the Fall, appointing Adam as Federal head and as head of all creation, with sin touching him and his children only (in regards to guilt)? Might all the created world somehow also be mediated for in some sense by the Covenant of Grace if only for the fact that God would hold the world together for the sake of the elect?



dtaylor3 said:


> My view is he only mediates on behalf of the elect if you use mediate in that terminology. Just because someone's parent is elect does not mean he mediates on their behalf as well.



I saw you’re new to the Board. Welcome!

How do chapters such as 1 Corinthians 10 fit in with your view? The Israelites who would be destroyed had received the same spiritual meat, same spiritual drink, and the rock which followed them was Christ? Do you find still that the sense of it cannot be that Christ cannot have mediated these ordinances to them? If not, why do you believe they are called spiritual, why is Christ the rock given to them, and why were they were delivered to those who would die in the wilderness unconverted? I’d also be interested in your thoughts on Jude 4-5 and Exodus 14 with the angel of the Lord leading them out.

Your thoughts are welcome on everything I said earlier in the post too.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 3, 2018)

Just because God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit does something for someone, does _not_ make it "mediation." It is not necessarily for covenant-relations.

Eph.1:22, "and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,"

I have no urge to extend the Covenant of Grace proper to include everything and every creature, particularly rebellious men. Christ does rule over all things, he does so as Lord of heaven and earth. Here is WCF ch.5.7_ Of Providence,_
VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, *after a most special manner*, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.​It is a special covenant-relationship that Christ has with his church.

Now in regard to the church, being a covenant of divine_ favor,_ his mediatorial function conveys all that benevolence he has toward those who are recipients eschatologically. In the most basic sense, there is no eschatological favor extended to anyone who will never believe. Instead, they are storing up wrath for themselves, and even more if they have intruded upon holy things.

Christ is OUR Mediator (so says the believer), and he is THE Mediator, meaning he is the one and only and is so no matter what some party thinks of him. In the means of grace of the Lord's Supper, we confess (over against the Lutherans, as well as Romanists and the like) regarding _unworthy _recipients
VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament; yet, *they receive not the thing signified thereby*; but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto.​
Christ most certainly is the covenant mediator_ administratively,_ yet by virtue of his ministers in the church, and not directly. It's true because he does not separate himself transcendently from their service. Because it is His Name (indicating his Person) that is connected with the outward and ordinary means that it really is a BIG DEAL when they are mistreated, whether by those performing the tasks, or by those participating.

And yet, the abusers do not affect the substance behind the means. Christ is beyond their reach, and they can do him no harm, nor any violence to his covenant spiritually.

Anything beyond this, you need to consider divine activity toward and in the world by another category than divine mediation. Christ's or the Spirit's engagement with the world does not entail the concept of covenant mediation. That ch.7 of the WCF speaks of man's having some "fruition," some blessing or reward intelligibly apprehended and embraced through knowledge of him. God must take the initiative, or else man can't attain to the first notion of what might bring it about.

The covenant of grace has inception, or conception, in time and space at Gen.3:15. We can say it is living and operative, but "gestational" for the first 11 chapters. When Abraham appears ch.12, the labor pains begin, and in ch.15 comes the birth of that covenant by way of God's formal setting out the terms of it. ch.17 gives the sign of it; ch.22 is a grand exhibit of confirmation regarding it.

Obviously, God holds everything together in this world for nothing else (that we know of) than his redemptive purposes. So his covenant of preservation for the world (see Gen.9) is tied to the covenant of grace, though subservient to it. But is there a "mediator" for this covenant? It doesn't especially need mediation, and were it necessary to invoke it there is One in the "higher" covenant of grace to appeal to.

But once again, I do not think it fit to use the category of mediation to classify all divine action. Just a we shouldn't identify all God's work as "grace," even if there is inherent "graciousness" is just about anything God does for creatures.


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## TylerRay (Apr 3, 2018)

Harley said:


> Yet Christ is the one administrating the means of biological life and conversion. The order as I understand is that (forgive me if this is simplidtic), the Father decrees all that comes to pass, Christ bridges the gap between God and the created world and brings the decreed blessings to the created world, and the Spirit is His agent to execute the blessings. So, it looks entirely like mediation. Do I have that right?


I wish I had more time to give to this thread--perhaps I will later. For now, I'll just note that Christ's mediation is a function of his Messianic office. His acts proper to his being the Eternal Son of God and Second Person of the Trinity are not mediatorial in a covenantal sense. His mediatorial acts are, as I said, proper to the Messianic office that he takes on in the Covenant of Grace.

Further, note that the Confession's teaching is not that the creature can have no relation to God whatsoever apart from covenant, but that "they could never have any fruition of him *as their blessedness and reward*, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant."


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 3, 2018)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Just because God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit does something for someone, does _not_ make it "mediation." It is not necessarily for covenant-relations.
> 
> Eph.1:22, "and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,"
> 
> ...



To be sure I’ve understood this, there needs to be a clear line between between how the covenant is mediated to those who receive the benefits, and how it is to mediated to the hypocrite who comes in? For the believer, they are the “intended recipients” for the ordinances and the blessings, but for all others, it may be mediation only because Christ is the head of the ordinances and sacraments, and purely as a course of administration Christ has mediated it to them?

[Deleted two paragraphs for irrelevancy - mediation assumes that parties are at odds, which creation is not with the God, but only man]

I think my struggle is in just what is Christ’s intention for the reprobate in the visible membership? They are pretended members because they are not sincere, and yet I’m trying to make sense of passages where it seems that Christ in some manner “works with them” and gives them means to fruitfulness. It’s not saving mediation, but He gives privileges patiently.

First, 1 Corinthians 10 when the Israelites who would die in the wilderness were given spiritual meat, spiritual drink, they were baptized in the Red Sea, and the rock which followed was Christ, though they routinely manifested themselves to be unbelievers.

The parable of the fig tree. The master sees no fruit, is ready to cut it down, but agrees to another year of time.

Christ says in a John 15 “every branch in me that does not bear fruit is cut off.” There is some relationship to them, and it’s there in the olive tree in Romans 11. Some relationship is applied, and from other contexts Christ seems to have a way of delivering means to make them fruitful anyway.

Hebrews 6, apostates are partakers of the Spirit, they receive the rain and drink it up, and Christ sends the Spirit. Obviously He strives with them in some manner. And also Hebrews 10, they have insulted the Spirit of grace.

(I had originally included the Spirit striving with man in Genesis 6, but now I see the context there is too different without covenant relationship).

The struggle is this: Administratively, on one hand it’s not “You’re in the Covenant so you’re safe,” but neither is it, “You are not really regenerate even though you look like it so you are not supposed to be here.”


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 3, 2018)

TylerRay said:


> I wish I had more time to give to this thread--perhaps I will later. For now, I'll just note that Christ's mediation is a function of his Messianic office. His acts proper to his being the Eternal Son of God and Second Person of the Trinity are not mediatorial in a covenantal sense. His mediatorial acts are, as I said, proper to the Messianic office that he takes on in the Covenant of Grace.
> 
> Further, note that the Confession's teaching is not that the creature can have no relation to God whatsoever apart from covenant, but that "they could never have any fruition of him *as their blessedness and reward*, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant."



So, like how none of us profits God, and so to even reward Adam’s obedience wasn’t rewarding a profitable work, but God finding a way to stoop down and bless Adam anyway? Whatever means, God has to give it, it is never deserved, and beyond the reach or merit of any creature. The Covenants are simply how God decided to do it?

I think I realized how my application of Mediator was faulty. Mediation assumes that the parties are at odds, and there needs to be a go-between who can represent both sides. There’s no way Christ does that for a world that groans under the burden of sin and wants release (unlike man). That doesn’t mean He delivers no blessings outside a covenant.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 3, 2018)

Understand that the reprobate have experienced REAL, though purely external, mediation. We speak thus because we find it necessary to say that the faithless have done deservedly blamable offense, more than merely theoretical.

A Christian (professing) despising the means of grace, is something like an American (professing) burning the symbol of the flag, or using the Constitution as toilet paper. It's "just" a symbol, right? Or maybe not. Courts are required to arbitrate on the issue because people demand the right to express themselves forcefully (if it meant little generally, they'd hardly use the tactic), and others take great offense. People are attacking old monuments today, and succeeding, because they claim harm from them; but even more they wish to harm those who are attached to them.

So, how it works is that Christ is THE Mediator, and he has an earthly form of his government and authority in the institutional church--his embassies. So the whole church receives outwardly whatever his servants disseminate. He is represented by them, so his mediation is indirect, but for that reason also external.

Meanwhile, conjoined is the Spirit's presence and mediation. We speak of "common operations" of the Spirit, but we wish to describe only his effectual operation as strictly mediatorial (in behalf of Christ, as his Spirit). However, we men lack the perception to divide between one Spirit work and another. "You cannot tell," Jn.3:8. So we are left with describing his work simply, or compoundedly, and not dividedly.



Harley said:


> I think my struggle is in just what is Christ’s intention for the reprobate in the visible membership? They are pretended members because they are not sincere, and yet I’m trying to make sense of passages where it seems that Christ in some manner “works with them” and gives them means to fruitfulness. It’s not saving mediation, but He gives privileges patiently.


What is the word "intention" doing in the first sentence? Clearly, we could bring in a distinction in "intentions" by reference to Gen.50:20. But why are we proposing divine "intention" regarding a relationship that is unholy? It sounds like mixing the revealed will of God, and the secret will of his decree. If I may put it bluntly: stop doing that. It will save you lots of headache.

It isn't for us to know or worry why Christ has permitted (and that ever since the formal setting up of his covenant, with an outward human-involved administration) limited "erring" on the side of inclusion, for the sake of kindness and the better exhibition of his mercy, appointing his mark of ownership, his covenant-sign also for believer's children. In fact, for anyone who professes a sincere interest in attachment to his covenant, which (as history teaches) includes the fake and deluded.

Why doesn't Christ prevent the reprobate from ever entering his public fellowship? Because... that's not the world he instantiated. We are firmly established in a world with lots of uncertainty, and even more than otherwise because sin has beclouded it.

But just because they are found within the church, does not mean they enjoy (in any fundamental sense) Christ's mediation. The best that can be said for them is that they experience the general effects of his kindness _intended _for his elect within the proper sphere of those operations. Get rid of the notion that there's _gracious intention_ for the reprobate.

The Protestant Reformed will tell you all about the error of divorcing covenant and election, from their perspective dealing with the deliberate expansion (within the CRC) of the concept of covenant-mercies to include the reprobate. I'm not saying I know all about their split, or if there were faults to go around on all sides, or anything. Only that in this point, the PRC fathers seem to have been prescient.

Is God good and patient to repeatedly give his good gifts to those who he knows will despise them in the end? Of course, because he still shows to all his essential goodness, and exposes these and their unreasonable defiance. We don't need that these types say, "my Mediator" of a truth in some sense. It is enough for the Judge to be able to say, "He was THE Mediator, you had some wide exposure to his benefits, and still you denied him."



Harley said:


> The struggle is this: Administratively, on one hand it’s not “You’re in the Covenant so you’re safe,” but neither is it, “You are not really regenerate even though you look like it so you are not supposed to be here.”



To resolve the struggle, simply admit that some statements in Scripture are "administratively" or publicly true. And that's as far as it goes, as far as we can take it. They are given for the sake of our limited human judgments, and they express in general and indiscriminate terms _accurately_ what nevertheless is _precisely_ true only when the external and the internal are in alignment. For our part, we make earthly judgments according to charity. 

Take the positive statements of Scripture, and set them right beside the warning statements; and don't minimize either. Give them each their due weight. We don't make judgments of men according to their election or reprobation. We accept the terms as descriptions and categories; we employ them for theological clarity. In terms of the church, they assist us in making discriminating statements about what is true for this kind of member or that kind, without deciding who is this or that, or what is in the heart.

We're back to the effect of the Spirit's work in the church. He comes down like rain upon the field. The sower has been over it. There are results, but only the harvest shows how these matters are finally disposed. Evangelistically, we do not need to promise the unbeliever that "his" Mediator has brought gifts for him along with everyone else, and invite him to move from unworthy partaking to worthy. No, "the" Mediator has brought his gifts for believers to enjoy, so repent and believe the gospel, which is to find him as "my" Mediator.

Otherwise, they shall not escape who turn from him who speaks from heaven, that consuming Fire.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 3, 2018)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Understand that the reprobate have experienced REAL, though purely external, mediation.



Amen, Bruce.


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 4, 2018)

Bruce, thank you much for your response. I want to take some more time to study what you have said, but if you would say I've set my eyes on things too great and marvelous for me, I would say you're right.

In other areas we know better than to find a one-to-one correspondence with God's decrees and precepts. If we assume that God's election and intended audience in the Great Commission are the same, we become hyper-Calvinists. If we fight to reconcile God's sovereignty and man's voluntary choice, we become Arminians or fatalists. If we try to reason from supposed consequences and how people may twist and abuse doctrines, we'd never believe election (or free grace for that matter).

So, it is also a mistake to assume there is a one-to-one correspondence between God's election and the visible church before Christ's return when Scripture is plain even in the New Testament there is not, but neither is it my responsibility to explain or rationalize it so long as God says it is so.

The reprobate may experience a real, purely external mediation, though Scripture is plain it is NOT any kind of mediation of the substance of the covenants. It is enough that God says that there is. Why He chose it this way is up to Him.

But in relationship to the original question, what does Christ mediate for covenant children who will never be saved, it's enough to say that Christ indeed does have an external administration in which unbelievers partake, though it is by no means saying they partake in the substance, and Hebrews speaks clearly enough to both of those points. Thus, the inclusion of covenant children is not problematic in concerns to His mediation.

Though, I cannot bear the idea that the broken off wild branches in Romans 11 or the warnings in Hebrews 6 are merely hypothetical and nullify their own point. Let God be true.

I'll run with this for now and think it through. I'll probably have a few questions later. Thank you much.


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## brendanchatt (Apr 8, 2018)

Harley said:


> I’m not aware that in these contexts there is any kind of covenant in place.



Some of these discussions are a little beyond me, but isn't everyone under the curse of the covenant of works/life, if out of Christ?


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 10, 2018)

brendanchatt said:


> Some of these discussions are a little beyond me, but isn't everyone under the curse of the covenant of works/life, if out of Christ?



That’s true, though I was grappling with the Spirit striving with unconverted people. In context of the Covenant of Grace, the Spirit effectually works on those who have the inward benefits, and it’s by the Spirit that the benefits of Christ come to them. I was trying to figure out what exactly the Spirit does with those who have no CG relation to God at all, or are external CG members only, and what in what sense—if any—external members receive any mediation from Christ.

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## brendanchatt (Apr 13, 2018)

Harley said:


> That’s true, though I was grappling with the Spirit striving with unconverted people. In context of the Covenant of Grace, the Spirit effectually works on those who have the inward benefits, and it’s by the Spirit that the benefits of Christ come to them. I was trying to figure out what exactly the Spirit does with those who have no CG relation to God at all, or are external CG members only, and what in what sense—if any—external members receive any mediation from Christ.



Thank you, that helped me to understand.


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