# Can man want a right relationship with God before regeneration



## JMC (Nov 8, 2022)

My question is in light of passages in Acts where the unbelievers ask what they must do. The response is for them to repent and believe. Then they do. So my questions are:

1) is there a lot of time between regeneration and faith? I thought that faith happened immediately after regeneration.

2) if there is no time between regeneration and faith, then it seems people in Acts are desiring God before they are regenerated. Therefore is man able to desire salvation with pure motives before regeneration?

Obviously no, (right?) I’m not sure how to answer this argument I received from someone.


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 8, 2022)

No. Regeneration and faith can be logically distinguished but there is very little in the temporal. A man who is outside of Christ (having not exercised faith in Him yet) and yet being labelled as being regenerate/having new life is odd. Life is only found in union with Christ.

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## jw (Nov 8, 2022)

JMC said:


> My question is in light of passages in Acts where the unbelievers ask what they must do. The response is for them to repent and believe. Then they do. So my questions are:
> 
> 1) is there a lot of time between regeneration and faith? I thought that faith happened immediately after regeneration.
> 
> ...


Desiring to want a _right_ relationship with God, _God's way_, is indicative of regeneration. The natural man wants no such thing. Further, it is a sign of our very decisionalistic age to try and discern things which are indiscernible. Some men may _profess_ an interest, join the church visibly, even have a credible profession, partaking of the table, and yet not be regenerate. Then, perhaps, years later, they may be regenerated, not having an exact sense of when that actually happened. It's the Lord's strange work. (Conversely, some may know of an exact moment there was a change in mind & heart in themselves).

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## JMC (Nov 8, 2022)

I do believe that, but I’m having trouble understanding the Acts passages. These men were cut to the heart and wanted to be saved, yet were not. This seems to mean that either 1) there’s a gap between regeneration and faith or 2) that someone can want to be saved but not be regenerated. I don’t believe either of these, but can’t figure out these verses.


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## jw (Nov 8, 2022)

JMC said:


> I do believe that, but I’m having trouble understanding the Acts passages. These men were cut to the heart and wanted to be saved, yet were not. This seems to mean that either 1) there’s a gap between regeneration and faith or 2) that someone can want to be saved but not be regenerated. I don’t believe either of these, but can’t figure out these verses.


How do you know they were not "saved"? Regeneration and faith are inseparable, because the one _guarantees_ the other, though it may not be so sensibly tied in our understanding. It's a golden chain. A man who God regenerates will _inexorably_ exercise faith. The being _saved_ language is the problem, not the biblical narrative. This _threshhold _Christianity we've come to adopt is not the _salvation_ that is described in Scripture.


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## davejonescue (Nov 8, 2022)

It may have to do with semantics. When we say, as Christians, "can men want a right relationship with God before regeneration;" we mean, "can men want to put their faith in Christ before having a renewed Spirit?" But I would go as far to say a majority of the world seeks a right relationship with a god or gods just off general revelation, since Gods existence is unavoidable; but lacking special revelation through regeneration, they do not seek a "right" relationship with the true God, through Christ. This is why 80% or more of the world practice a form of "spirituality," but only a fraction practice authentic Christianity.

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## Polanus1561 (Nov 8, 2022)

JMC said:


> I do believe that, but I’m having trouble understanding the Acts passages. These men were cut to the heart and wanted to be saved, yet were not. This seems to mean that either 1) there’s a gap between regeneration and faith or 2) that someone can want to be saved but not be regenerated. I don’t believe either of these, but can’t figure out these verses.


Even if there is a gap, it is a minimal gap.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 8, 2022)

Are you speaking of the mini-Penecosts and their respective groups (Samaritans, God-fearinf Gentiles, etc.)?


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## JMC (Nov 8, 2022)

Yeah, for example Acts 2:37-41. I can’t figure out when they were regenerated and believed. It couldn’t be when they were cut to the heart because they didn’t even know how to respond. (In order for this to be the case there would have to be a gap of regeneration and faith that is as long as it take Peter to tell them to repent and be baptized. But since there isn’t a gap that long it can’t be true) But then it seems weird to me that it would be after they asked that question because it seems they are exhibiting a pure desire to be in union with Christ but doesn’t that only come after regeneration? Its certain I don’t fully understand this doctrine of total depravity, so please bear with me. 

It seems from this text we must assume that these people are not exhibiting a true desire to know God or that seeking God can be done by an unregenerated person. The former seems to be stretching the text to say what we want. But the latter seems to be in contradiction with other passages.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 8, 2022)

Hello James,

I gather the passage in Acts 2:32-37 where Peter is preaching is one of those you refer to:

This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.​For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:​The LORD said to my Lord,​Sit at My right hand,​Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.​Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.​*Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”*​

Cut to the heart by what? I think we see similarly in Acts 4:21ff after the release of John and Peter by the high priest and his council, as they met with their fellow believers and all prayed, and the place they were in was shaken and the Holy Spirit came upon them, in Acts 4:33 it is written,

*And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.*​
In both of these accounts we have the supernatural power of the resurrected Saviour manifest – "He poured out this which you now see and hear" (Acts 2:33).

Acts 4:33, with great power the apostles gave witness of the resurrection.

They were cut to the heart by the presence of the resurrected Saviour whose crucifixion they were parties to. They *saw* Him with the eyes of their hearts. His glory, majesty, and love cut them deeply. This was the onset of their regeneration, and in their confusion, guilt, grief, and pain they asked Peter what should they do, and he said repent – turn from your dark hearts and ways to His light – for this is the promise to you and your children...*even as many as the Lord our God shall call*.

By His appearing to them in His glory, Jesus was calling them to Himself. They were regenerated when the Lord appeared to them in the preaching of His resurrection. Even as ancient Abraham was regenerated when "The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia" (Acts 7:2).

That's all it takes, the God of glory appearing to us, making us alive to Him in love.

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## Sovereign Grace (Nov 9, 2022)

Can man want a right relationship with God before regeneration?​
I think we can see throughout the bible (and even observing the lost all around us) the resounding answer is no. The unregenerate stand opposed to all things of God, as Romans 8:5-9 clearly bears outs. The unregenerate cannot please God, as they are still in the flesh, Romans 8:8.

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## JMC (Nov 9, 2022)

Sovereign Grace said:


> Can man want a right relationship with God before regeneration?​
> I think we can see throughout the bible (and even observing the lost all around us) the resounding answer is no. The unregenerate stand opposed to all things of God, as Romans 8:5-9 clearly bears outs. The unregenerate cannot please God, as they are still in the flesh, Romans 8:8.


I would certainly agree, but Acts 2:37-41 is confusing me. For instance it seems like they are wanting a right relationship with God in Verse 37, but they don't even know how to respond and therefore have not responded(?) and therefore have not been regenerated. Therefore from this verse it seems people can be unregenerated and want a right relationship with God. BUT that can't be because it denies Romans 8 as you have pointed out. This is causing me to look more into what faith and repentance really are and i'm starting to wonder if these people are regenerated before their question in verse 37. I'm wondering if maybe they have already been granted repentance and faith before Peter tells them that that is what they need to do. So then the question is, can someone repent and believe before they are commanded to?

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## Sovereign Grace (Nov 9, 2022)

JMC said:


> I would certainly agree, but Acts 2:37-41 is confusing me. For instance it seems like they are wanting a right relationship with God in Verse 37, but they don't even know how to respond and therefore have not responded(?) and therefore have not been regenerated. Therefore from this verse it seems people can be unregenerated and want a right relationship with God. BUT that can't be because it denies Romans 8 as you have pointed out. This is causing me to look more into what faith and repentance really are and i'm starting to wonder if these people are regenerated before their question in verse 37. I'm wondering if maybe they have already been granted repentance and faith before Peter tells them that that is what they need to do. So then the question is, can someone repent and believe before they are commanded to?


Ppl are begotten by the word. So no one would be granted faith and repentance without having heard the word of God. Look at Romans 10 for instance…_How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ._[vss 14-17 NASB]


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## itsreed (Nov 9, 2022)

"Repent and be baptized" are the external actions that follow the internal conversion. Given other passages clear ordering of regeneration internally before external expression of that, it seems appropriate to read their question, "what shall we do?" as the first external expression of their prior conversion.

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## JMC (Nov 9, 2022)

Sovereign Grace said:


> Ppl are begotten by the word. So no one would be granted faith and repentance without having heard the word of God. Look at Romans 10 for instance…_How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ._[vss 14-17 NASB]


yeah, I would agree with this. but I think the distinction would be that someone needs to hear the gospel in order to believe it but doesn't need to hear how they need to respond in order to respond correctly. That's only way I can reconcile the Acts 2 passage because it seems like they have already had an internal conversion (Been regenerated and have believed and repented) by the time they are asking what they must do.


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## JMC (Nov 9, 2022)

itsreed said:


> "Repent and be baptized" are the external actions that follow the internal conversion. Given other passages clear ordering of regeneration internally before external expression of that, it seems appropriate to read their question, "what shall we do?" as the first external expression of their prior conversion.


is the internal conversion regeneration and the gifts of faith and repentance? or just regeneration?

This is what I was thinking, but now that I'm reading the passage again, Peter is saying for them to do this for forgiveness of sins and the indwelling Holy Spirit. Meaning they have yet to receive forgiveness of sins and the promised holy Spirit. But doesn't forgiveness of sins and being sealed by the Spirit happen right after Faith? if so, then these people have not had Faith yet, therefore the internal conversion is just regeneration. If its just regeneration then there is a gap between regeneration and faith, but there is not a gap, therefore it can't be regeneration. But they are seeking God, therefore it has to be regeneration, but it can't be. The more I look at it the more confused I get because, how can an undegenerated person seek reconciliation with God or how can a regenerated person not have their sins forgiven?


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## Knight (Nov 9, 2022)

JMC said:


> I would certainly agree, but Acts 2:37-41 is confusing me. For instance it seems like they are wanting a right relationship with God in Verse 37, but they don't even know how to respond and therefore have not responded(?) and therefore have not been regenerated. Therefore from this verse it seems people can be unregenerated and want a right relationship with God. BUT that can't be because it denies Romans 8 as you have pointed out. This is causing me to look more into what faith and repentance really are and i'm starting to wonder if these people are regenerated before their question in verse 37. I'm wondering if maybe they have already been granted repentance and faith before Peter tells them that that is what they need to do. *So then the question is, can someone repent and believe before they are commanded to?*



I would argue yes. Here's how:

In epistemology, a distinction is made between occurrent and dispositional beliefs. For example, when we sleep, we don't occurrently believe the gospel, but we are disposed to believe it in that if someone were to wake us up and ask us whether we affirmed the gospel, we would occurrently do so.

Likewise, infants may be regenerated before being able to express faith. When they develop the capacity to express what they are taught - e.g. the gospel - then if they have been regenerated, their already present dispositional belief in the gospel can and will be articulated occurrently.

Just so, those in Acts 2:37 appear disposed to do what Peter is about to command. The hearts have been changed, and this is the essence of faith. Such faith will always eventually mature into articulation and occurrent belief in the gospel, but often it starts in incipient or dispositional form.

That's my thoughts, anyway.


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## JMC (Nov 9, 2022)

Knight said:


> I would argue yes. Here's how:
> 
> In epistemology, a distinction is made between occurrent and dispositional beliefs. For example, when we sleep, we don't occurrently believe the gospel, but we are disposed to believe it in that if someone were to wake us up and ask us whether we affirmed the gospel, we would occurrently do so.
> 
> ...


This makes a lot of sense and I am leaning in this direction. but I am still a little confused. It definitely seems like they already have been regenerated and have faith before they ask the question in verse 37, but do they have the forgiveness of sins and have the Holy Spirit indwelling them by the time they ask the question? Peter tells them to repent and be baptized so that they will receive forgiveness and the seal, as if to say they are still needing to do something in order to be forgiven and sealed. So then is there a gap between regeneration and repentance?


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## Knight (Nov 9, 2022)

JMC said:


> This makes a lot of sense and I am leaning in this direction. but I am still a little confused. It definitely seems like they already have been regenerated and have faith before they ask the question in verse 37, but do they have the forgiveness of sins and have the Holy Spirit indwelling them by the time they ask the question? Peter tells them to repent and be baptized so that they will receive forgiveness and the seal, as if to say they are still needing to do something in order to be forgiven and sealed. So then is there a gap between regeneration and repentance?



That's the thing about dispositional beliefs and repentance: because we can't witness dispositions, we don't know if they're there until there is a public confession of faith. Say you have an infant. Do you know he has been regenerated? No. He may grow up and die faithless, he may grow up faithless but later repent and believe, or he may grow up having already been regenerated unto dispositional repentance and belief. The point is, until we see how someone responds to the gospel presented to them, we have no evidence of their regenerative status. Therefore, we shouldn't assume they are regenerated.

Likewise, Peter cannot know whether or not those in Acts 2 have been regenerated unto dispositional repentance and belief. We have the benefit of insider knowledge (Acts 2:37) that Peter could not have known at the time of his command. His duty is to command them to occurrently believe the gospel, for they have the capacity to do so. If they don't, they clearly don't have a right disposition, have not been regenerated, and have not been forgiven. If they do, he doesn't know when they were regenerated (unless divine revelation like Acts 2:37 is provided), nor does he need to know. His focus is only on evangelizing and knowing, by their responsive fruits (public confession of occurrent belief or not), who is a healthy or diseased tree.

There may be (but not always is) a gap between regeneration and _occurrent_ repentance. There is never a gap between regeneration and dispositional repentance (and/or belief).

I'm still thinking through the matter, but that's how I would answer for now, anyways.


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## JMC (Nov 9, 2022)

Knight said:


> That's the thing about dispositional beliefs and repentance: because we can't witness dispositions, we don't know if they're there until there is a public confession of faith. Say you have an infant. Do you know he has been regenerated? No. He may grow up and die faithless, he may grow up faithless but later repent and believe, or he may grow up having already been regenerated unto dispositional repentance and belief. The point is, until we see how someone responds to the gospel presented to them, we have no evidence of their regenerative status. Therefore, we shouldn't assume they are regenerated.
> 
> Likewise, Peter cannot know whether or not those in Acts 2 have been regenerated unto dispositional repentance and belief. We have the benefit of insider knowledge (Acts 2:37) that Peter could not have known at the time of his command. His duty is to command them to occurrently believe the gospel, for they have the capacity to do so. If they don't, they clearly don't have a right disposition, have not been regenerated, and have not been forgiven. If they do, he doesn't know when they were regenerated (unless divine revelation like Acts 2:37 is provided), nor does he need to know. His focus is only on evangelizing and knowing, by their responsive fruits (public confession of occurrent belief or not), who is a healthy or diseased tree.
> 
> ...


I see. That makes a lot of sense and answers my question really well. Thank you!


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## Gesetveemet (Nov 9, 2022)

JMC said:


> My question is in light of passages in Acts where the unbelievers ask what they must do. The response is for them to repent and believe. Then they do. So my questions are:
> 
> 1) is there a lot of time between regeneration and faith? I thought that faith happened immediately after regeneration.
> 
> ...


___________________________________________________________________
CHAPTER THIRTY-ONE *Regeneration *Wilhelmus a’ Brakel
___________________________________________________________________
Regeneration Defined
Regeneration is a word derived from human birth. We must not understand this to refer only to giving birth itself, but it is inclusive of all that pertains to it, such as conception, fetal growth, and the birth itself. We must not be of the opinion that man possesses life prior to regeneration, as if there were a preparation for regeneration, which we would understand to be conversion. No, man is dead prior to regeneration and receives life by way of regeneration. There is no third state between death and life, and thus also not between being converted and unconverted.
Although we can make a distinction between calling, regeneration, conversion, and sanctification, considering them to be sequential—that is, the one issuing forth from the other—Scripture does not always use this distinction. Instead, Scripture comprehends all these in either one word or the other.
___________________________________________________________________
James, I hope the above may be a little help that your riddle may be solved. God the Father reveals Christ in His time. The Lord will not forsake the works of His own hands.

The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. Psalms 138:8

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

William,

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## Ed Walsh (Nov 9, 2022)

Hi @JMC ,

Your title is interesting, so I decided to say a few words.
Can man want a right relationship with God before regeneration?​Romans chapter one is full of the many things that all men know, and that infallibly so. Nothing in an unregenerate man would make him think that a "right relationship with God" is possible. Or, frankly, even desirable. The exact opposite is true. Everything–and I mean everything that God reveals about Himself to the unregenerate–even an elect person still in his sin (Ephesians 2:1-3) is wrath, anger, and a fearful looking ahead towards judgment. I think Paul's order in relating these things is essential. Here's a partial list in order:

vs. 18 – God is every day revealing His wrath against the ungodly. And that not once in a while but every day in every way. All men, by nature, spend their entire lives subject to bondage in fear of death [and the judgment to follow]. (Hebrews 2:15)
vs. 19 – God has revealed much of Who He really is. (He elaborates starting in vs. 20)
vs. 20 – What do all men know? And by 'know,' I mean know as infallibly as they know they exist. That He is:
Creator of all things; He is a Spirit, infinite, eternal in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, goodness, and truth.
vs. 21 – Yes, all men know the True God, and all reject this knowledge and become progressively "vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart darkened."
vs. 21-23 – demonstrates the downward spiral of sin taking them from bad to worse.
vs. 24 – What is God's response to this? Does He cry and say I love you? No! God judges their sin by giving them over to yet greater sin.
vs. 25 – Open shameless idolatry increases as they "changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
vs. 26 – Their evil increases due to God's yet further judgment. Well, it only gets worse from here to the end of Romans chapter one, but I'm sure you get the picture. The whole story is far from a _cum bi ya_ moment. It's worth reading again to the end of the chapter.
And in all that God reveals and does, there isn't a hint of grace, love, or the slightest hope that forgiveness is possible.
So the answer to your question is a decided–NO!
That knowledge is revealed nowhere but by Special revelation. But that's another subject.

Ed

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## Aretha (Nov 10, 2022)

I've been thinking about the question for a few days. It's a difficult one. For I myself think that the Lord works, beyond what we think or know, in the lives of men. When I look back: I was still involved with Eastern religions, but the death of my believing grandfather created an urge to get to know His God. I certainly wasn't born again at that point. But I saw that His God was the true God and that I was guilty before this God. I wanted to seek this God at all costs. So: was there a desire to be in a good relationship with this God before I was born again? 

I could use some clarity. 
Does anyone have any good thoughts on this from God's Word?

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## Sovereign Grace (Nov 10, 2022)

JMC said:


> yeah, I would agree with this. but I think the distinction would be that someone needs to hear the gospel in order to believe it but doesn't need to hear how they need to respond in order to respond correctly. That's only way I can reconcile the Acts 2 passage because it seems like they have already had an internal conversion (Been regenerated and have believed and repented) by the time they are asking what they must do.


I see this as Peter is preaching to them the Holy Spirit is working in them.


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## Ed Walsh (Nov 10, 2022)

Sovereign Grace said:


> I see this as Peter is preaching to them the Holy Spirit is working in them.



We have the rich young ruler's mater-in-factly question of what he could do to inherit the Kingdom; while not being serious at all.
In contrast, we also have incidents like the jailer and other terrified and deadly serious gospel-struck people crying out, "What must I do to be saved?"

Those in the latter group had already seen the Kingdom of God and were obviously born again before asking the questions.
The light of the glory of God always shines in the darkness of the human heart before it can ask in earnest, "What shall we do?"

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 10, 2022)

As far as my own testimony, I reached a point where I wanted nothing to do with my sin anymore. I literally abhorred it in every way. My life was changing very rapidly and quickly for the good, as I was leaving a life of sin and pursuing righteousness. At that time I still did not have the Gospel, or Christian influences. That came later down the road. With my testimony, it was repentance, then it was faith after I learned about it. I would say that was all a work of God, but sometimes it's not easy to make a perfect system in regards to how it all works. And I'm fine with that. The point is that there was repentance and faith, and that is the Biblical requirement.

So in my case, I desperately wanted a right relationship with God, but I did not know the Gospel. So maybe one would say I was regenerated before knowing the Gospel.

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## Sovereign Grace (Nov 10, 2022)

Ed Walsh said:


> We have the rich young ruler's mater-in-factly question of what he could do to inherit the Kingdom; while not being serious at all.
> In contrast, we also have incidents like the jailer and other terrified and deadly serious gospel-struck people crying out, "What must I do to be saved?"
> 
> Those in the latter group had already seen the Kingdom of God and were obviously born again before asking the questions.
> The light of the glory of God always shines in the darkness of the human heart before it can ask in earnest, "What shall we do?"


I am not saying you are wrong, but I try to stay as close to the word of God as you do. The bible tells us that faith comes by _hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ._[Romans 10:17 NASB] So, this may be by inference, but in regards to the Philippian jailor, he must have heard the word preached, seeing that Paul and Silas were there in Philippi. Then when he saw all the doors open in prison, instead of facing persecution, torture, and death at the Romans' hands, he sought to take his life instead of going through all that. It was after Paul had called out to him that he came in trembling, asking _"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"_ Yes, I believe that God was at work at that time bringing him to faith in Christ.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 10, 2022)

Hello @Aretha ,

I would say that God’s word regarding your state before your being born again is “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him”, from John 6:44.

Is the LORD’s drawing a soul to Christ *the* moment of regeneration? Perhaps not – speaking with precision – but it is an indication of His loving kindness reaching out to you to bring you to that state. See also, Jeremiah 31:3, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.”

This drawing a soul to Christ is the operation of God melting a hard heart so as to receive Him. That receiving Him (John 1:12) is the moment of His giving you new life – making you alive to Him in love, and thankfulness.

Christ’s light in your grandfather’s heart shining into yours “created an urge” in you – a desire – to know the source of this light, Him drawing you.

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## Ed Walsh (Nov 11, 2022)

Sovereign Grace said:


> in regards to the Philippian jailor, he must have heard the word preached, seeing that Paul and Silas were there in Philippi. Then when he saw all the doors open in prison, instead of facing persecution, torture, and death at the Romans' hands, he sought to take his life instead of going through all that. It was after Paul had called out to him that he came in trembling, asking _"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"_ Yes, I believe that God was at work at that time bringing him to faith in Christ.



Hi Wills,

Well said. I couldn't agree more with your precising analysis.

Romans 10:14 (KJV)​How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?​and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?​and how shall they hear without a preacher?​
PS - I noticed the "Post-Mill" in your sig. I call myself a "65-Book" Postmill, for there is no need for the as yet unconfessed one true interpretation of the Revelation to come to a Postmill persuasion.
– _Jesus is the Savor of the World_.​

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## JMC (Nov 15, 2022)

Hey guys! This has been very helpful and has cleared up a lot of things for me. Thank you!


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