# Is the celebration of christmas an issue of adiaphora?



## earl40 (Dec 7, 2014)

I have seen those who favor the celebration of Dec. 25 say it is. Curious to see those that oppose such if they think it is adiaphorous.

In my thinking it is not adiaphorous if one thinks it is a sin to celebrate that day.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 7, 2014)

Are you speaking of observing the day like Thanksgiving or are you talking about a religious observance of the day, public worship, etc.


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## earl40 (Dec 7, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Are you speaking of observing the day like Thanksgiving or are you talking about a religious observance of the day, public worship, etc.



The second instance, as the entire world view it as such. Personally I enjoy Thanksgiving.....a tad too much if you get my drift. Burp.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 7, 2014)

Okay; a religious observance like that is not a matter of indifference or adiaphora. N.B. Let's not derail this over simply preaching a sermon about Christ's birth; all other things being as they should.


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## earl40 (Dec 7, 2014)

N.B.?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 7, 2014)

N.B.=_nota bene_=note.


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## KMK (Dec 7, 2014)

earl40 said:


> The second instance, as the entire world view it as such.



The entire world sees Christmas as a religious holiday? Are you saying Santa is religious?


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## nick (Dec 7, 2014)

KMK said:


> The entire world sees Christmas as a religious holiday? Are you saying Santa is religious?



He is an idol for millions of kiddos.


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## earl40 (Dec 8, 2014)

KMK said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > The second instance, as the entire world view it as such.
> ...



I will go out on a limb and say "yes" all who know the right hand from the left hand know Santa is connected to some type of religion. Now in saying this I understand they may not have this in the view many times as evidenced by our nonreligios culture but In my most humble opinion they know Santa is connected to a religion especially with all the mangers and angels that come with the trappings of this season.

Curious, do you see this differently?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 8, 2014)

We need to separate out cultural attachments from worship. Otherwise these discussions turn into a discussion of pagan practices and the much more important question of purifying worship on biblical principles never gets traction. Take care of worship practices and the tree, presents, Santa, light gazing, red and green M&Ms, and all of the rest takes care of itself.


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## earl40 (Dec 8, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> We need to separate out cultural attachments from worship. Otherwise these discussions turn into a discussion of pagan practices and the much more important question of purifying worship on biblical principles never gets traction. Take care of worship practices and the tree, presents, Santa, light gazing, red and green M&Ms, and all of the rest takes care of itself.



I agree that none of the periphery belongs in the church for Sunday or Dec. the 25th which falls on Thursday and thus is not adiaphorous. Is there warrent in your opinion to place this periphery as adiaphorous outside the church? In other words, I understand this is not a RPW issue but to observe this holiday anytime seems to somewhat synchronistic and not an issue of adiaphora because of the religious connotations.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 8, 2014)

If it is not worship it needs to be judged as anything else that is alleged to be indifferent in theory. I'm not saying that everything about xmas observance culturally outside the church is indifferent; I'm saying let's show some level of discernment over priorities. Sure, you can get a consortium of folks who hate the xmas tree as a pagan idol or Santa as the devil, but they will just as likely be a majority of "let's put Christ back into xmas".


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## KMK (Dec 8, 2014)

earl40 said:


> I will go out on a limb and say "yes" all who know the right hand from the left hand know Santa is connected to some type of religion.



You could probably stretch the term 'religion' to include just about everything from Santa to the American Flag to the NFL. What is your definition of 'religion'?


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## earl40 (Dec 8, 2014)

KMK said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > I will go out on a limb and say "yes" all who know the right hand from the left hand know Santa is connected to some type of religion.
> ...



Football is secular, as is the American flag. Of course we may enjoy when FSU beats Alabama in the NC and stand and face the flag when they play the national anthem before the game to the glory of God. In other words, I can separate these activities from any type of religious observance while still enjoying the good Our Lord provides. Now with Santa, candy canes, and the trapping of Christmas I believe it is not as easy to separate these trappings from the idea that men are setting apart a day (holi or holy day) to observe the incarnation.


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## johnny (Dec 8, 2014)

I like Xmas, waking up and opening pressies, going to church and singing carols, having a big lunch and just generally feeling happy, on the one day that the western world comes together and entertains the possibility that there might actually be a God.

I praise God for Xmas, what a wonderful gift to the world is this small holiday.
A great opportunity to talk about Christ at a time when people are more receptive to the gospel message.
Merry Christmas to all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ on the puritanboard


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## arapahoepark (Dec 8, 2014)

johnny said:


> I like Xmas, waking up and opening pressies, going to church and singing carols, having a big lunch and just generally feeling happy, on the one day that the western world comes together and entertains the possibility that there might actually be a God.
> 
> I praise God for Xmas, what a wonderful gift to the world is this small holiday.
> A great opportunity to talk about Christ at a time when people are more receptive to the gospel message.
> Merry Christmas to all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ on the puritanboard



When you work retail, you *will* hate Christmas but not for its intended meaning. You see all the godless consumerism and the working of other holidays to make these people, who likely know nothing of the meaning of Christmas, happy to buy gifts for themselves for a couple bucks less (if, of course, they win a fist fight to get it).


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## jwithnell (Dec 8, 2014)

_If_ a church wishes to emphasize the incarnation of Jesus at a certain time of year_ then_ I wish they wouldn't skip over the historic practice of setting aside time to celebrate the escatological hope the church has had throughout the ages.


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## Dearly Bought (Dec 8, 2014)

johnny said:


> I like Xmas, waking up and opening pressies, going to church and singing carols, having a big lunch and just generally feeling happy, on the one day that the western world comes together and entertains the possibility that there might actually be a God.
> 
> I praise God for Xmas, what a wonderful gift to the world is this small holiday.
> A great opportunity to talk about Christ at a time when people are more receptive to the gospel message.
> Merry Christmas to all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ on the puritanboard



I enjoy waking up on the Sabbath morn, going to church and singing psalms, having a shared lunch with my brethren in Christ, and just generally feeling joyful. Even from a purely pragmatic perspective, I don't think Christmas aids receptivity to the Gospel message, particularly since it associates the discussion of the incarnation and the birth of Christ with so much baggage. Try extricating a simple word such as "manger" from thoughts of fireside caroling, wooden nativity scenes, and children's pageants. What about the account of the magi and singing claymation camels?

It drives me nuts, as one aspiring to preach, that such excellent portions of God's Word have been clouded by a Thomas Kinkade haze.


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## Elizabeth (Dec 8, 2014)

jwithnell said:


> I wish they wouldn't skip over the historic practice of setting aside time to celebrate the escatological hope the church has had throughout the ages.



Our church does both, for which I am grateful.


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## MW (Dec 8, 2014)

Christmas.

Luke 21:8, "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them."


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 8, 2014)

Sadly many "Presbyterians" have forgotten their reforming ideals. How is letting the surrounding superstitious culture influence our worship by bringing in those idol holy days contrary to the second commandment and other rules in Scripture any better than those churches that violate the fourth commandment by having super bowl parties? As the Westminster Standards say, "THERE is no day commanded in scripture to be kept holy under the gospel but the Lord's day, which is the Christian Sabbath. Festival days, vulgarly called _Holy-days,_ having no warrant in the word of God, are not to be continued."

This decline simply proves the rule that one of the Scots commissioners to that assembly articulated at the time of the 2nd Reformation in Scotland and Calvin and others before:_[FONT=&amp]All things and rites which have been notoriously abused to idolatry, if they are not such as either God or nature has made to be of a necessary use, should be utterly abolished and purged away from divine worship, in such sort that they may not be accounted nor used by us as sacred things or rites pertaining to the same.[/FONT]_
​_[FONT=&amp]But the cross, surplice, kneeling in the act of receiving the communion, &c., are things and rites, &c., and are not such as either God or nature, &c.[/FONT]_
​_[FONT=&amp]Therefore they should be utterly abolished, &c.[/FONT]_ Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies (Naphtali Press, 2013) 149-156

*The Nassau Confession of 1578 on Monuments of Idolatry.*
“It were much to be wished that suitable steps against this evil had been taken in the Protestant churches soon upon the initial purification of doctrine. And moreover, that the idolatrous images, which have been and still are one of the principal abominations under the Papacy, had been everywhere abolished by the Protestant estates for the recovery and preservation of the proper service of worship and for the possible prevention of various disgraces to the Christian religion and to its reputation…

“And even if all the people of this age had their eyes opened so widely that there would now be no more residue of offence or scandal on account of images, nevertheless all manner of injury could be sustained among their descendents no less than formerly as a result of the surviving idols.

“And even if this were not encountered, still it is right in itself. And, as has previously been often stated, it is commanded by God that one should do away with the monuments of idolatry or memorials by means of which great idolatry was being promoted a few years ago. And this accords with the approved example of Holy Scripture.

“For King Hezekiah broke up the brazen serpent after the children of Israel had burned incense to it, though Moses had made it at God’s command as a type of Christ, 2 Kgs. 18[:4]….”

The Nassau Confession of 1578, translated by R. Sherman Isbell, in _Reformed Confessions of the 16th and 17th Centuries in English Translation Volume 3 1567-1599_. Edited by James T. Dennison (RHB, 2012), under the head “The Christian Magistrate not only has the power to remove Idolatrous Images, but is obliged to do so on account of his office,” 531.

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*The Bremer on Ceremonies (1595).*
“II. Some ceremonies are devised and established by men are properly called _adiaphora_, that is, a thing neither evil nor good, or an act which is left free, or an ecclesiastical rule. … They do not take the place of the indispensable worship service, such as the use of the holy sacraments and the hearing of God’s Word. Rather, they are external ordinances of men and thus they serve only for a convenient performance of the worship service. Beyond this, no necessity should be placed in them for conscience sake, nor any confidence or special reverence or sanctity, for as soon as that occurs such ceremonies will be much too highly elevated above their ordinary allowed use and are made into an evident superstition….

5. Fifth and similarly, should the ceremonies ordained by men come to be regarded no longer as something left free, and if one makes them to be a service especially pleasing to God or wants to insist upon them as if they were necessary for conscience sake, or if one wants to persuade the people that it would be meritorious or an action by which one could obtain grace with God, reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins, or satisfaction from some transgression, then on that account and in such circumstances they should be entirely abolished. This should be done regardless of the preceding custom and regardless of its past beneficial use because by this time they have been so greatly altered that they henceforth are a thing repugnant to the truth and liberty of the gospel and rob Christ of His glory.

6. Sixth, if the ordinances of men in the church assume a form that, for the sake of similarity, is closer in these matters to the enemies of the truth than to the orthodox so that the weak are offended by this and kept in error and the enemies would become more stiff-necked, then it is best to remove them, in part to obviate offence and in part to avoid dangers either present or apprehended as future. When there is a form with fasts, days of the deceased saints, vestments, wafers, elevation, images and the like, these are nothing other than papal ensigns and the colors of his court. They should no more be retained than a respectable woman should be accustomed to going thoughtlessly clothed among immodest people or than soldiers should undertake to carry the ensigns of the enemy.”

“The Bremen Consensus (1695),” translated by R. Sherman Isbell, in _Reformed Confessions of the 16th and 17th Centuries in English Translation,_ edited by James T. Dennison, Jr. (RHB, 2012) 700–701.
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*Calvin on Removing Idolatrous Filth from the Church*
“Similarly, what is alleged of an Italian writer, that abuse does not take away good use, will not be true if one holds to it without exception: because it is clearly commanded to us to prudently watch that we would not offend the infirm brothers by our example, and that we should never undertake what would be illicit. For Saint Paul prohibits offending the brothers in eating flesh that was sacrificed to idols [1 Cor. 10:28], and speaking to this particular issue he shows a general rule that we are to keep ourselves from troubling the consciences of the weak by a bad or damaging example. One might speak better and more wholesomely if he were to say that what God himself ordains may not be abolished for wrong use or abuse that is committed against it. But even here, it is necessary to abstain from these things if, by later human ordinance, they have become corrupt with error, and if their use is harmful or scandalizes the brothers. 

“Here I marvel how this “Reformer,” after granting that superstitions sometimes have such strong popularity that it is necessary to remove from the realm of man those things once ordained by public authority (as we read of Hezekiah doing with the bronze serpent), finally does not consider even a little that his shrewdness is a horror to the ways of good action: as if in defending supportable rituals, he would oblige that all superstitions should be considered as safe and whole because they are weighty. For what is there in the papacy now that would not resemble the bronze serpent, even if it did not begin that way [Num. 21:9]? Moses had it made and forged by the commandment of God: he had it kept for a sign of recognition. Among the virtues of Hezekiah told to us is that he had it broken and reduced to ash [2 Kings 18:4]. The superstitions for the most part, against which true servants of God battle today, are spreading from here to who knows where as covered pits in the ground. They are filled with detestable errors that can never be erased unless their use is taken away. Why, therefore, do we not confess simply what is true, that this remedy is necessary for taking away filth from the church?” Cf. Raymond V. Bottomly, “Response to a Certain Tricky Middler” (Responsio Ad Versipellem Quendam Mediatorem, [French] “Response a Un Certain Moyenneur Rusé,”), _The Confessional Presbyterian_ 8 (2012) 264.]​


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Dec 8, 2014)

The reason we have these discussions every year is because for so many otherwise careful Christians, the celebration is "cozy". A few posts even in this brief thread have said as much. The love of that kind of "feeling" is very powerful to our fallen humanity. However, obedience on the other hand is not "cozy", and often difficult and costly. This is further exacerbated because the desire of many is that their loved ones, especially their children, ought to enjoy this pleasurable feeling--again, obedience taking the back seat. Until we deal with our base desires for this kind of coziness and love for the traditions of men (make no mistake, that is what the Christ-mass is) we will continue to have these discussions. Christ-mass does not honor Christ, and Christ has no desire to be put "back into Christmas", as He was never there. I mean not to offend anyone. I mean not to sound "mean". But the simple fact is Christ-mass is a man-made celebration, with all of its appeal to the flesh (that coziness and nostalgia) that comes with human invention. Please, my dear brethren, seek to honor Christ in the way that He has appointed to be honored, and avoid every appearance of evil.


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## TylerRay (Dec 8, 2014)

KMK said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > The second instance, as the entire world view it as such.
> ...



Let's not forget that this figure is Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is an important religious idol for many of the antichurches of the world.


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## Free Christian (Dec 8, 2014)

I wish they'd stop showing the wise men around the manger!


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## KMK (Dec 9, 2014)

TylerRay said:


> KMK said:
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> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...



I am not arguing against the fact that some might turn Santa into a religion. I am wondering if it is indeed true that "the entire world views it as such." The entire world views Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc as religions. But 'Clausism' is something I have never heard mentioned as a world religion.


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

KMK said:


> TylerRay said:
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> 
> > KMK said:
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Is it not the point that it is impossible to separate "Santa" from Dec. 25th? The connection is that both ,Santa and Dec. 25th, are set apart to which Paul speaks of in Galatians 4.


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## KMK (Dec 9, 2014)

earl40 said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > TylerRay said:
> ...



I agree with you that Santa is an idol in some people's lives. I am not defending anything Santa. However, 'the entire world' does not view Santa as the god of some religious sect. There might be some who have faith in Santa, but I think most of the world sees those types as kooks, not disciples. If we the Reformed are going to argue against Santa, we cannot base it on the same grounds as our arguments against Buddhism or Islam.


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

KMK said:


> earl40 said:
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> > KMK said:
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I understand that the connection of a statue of Buddha to Buddhism is indeed woven together but the point is that Santa is connected to Dec 25th which sets apart that day which The Lord has not set apart. Now do not get me wrong I in no way wish to be looked at as a legalistic Grinch but what I have read is that in the early reformed churches such as Geneva and Scotland saw what I am conveying as not legalism but what is right in the eyes of God.

I am here for correction if I err....Pastor Winzer, Josh?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm just not following why the focus of your concern is on Saint Nick. You'll find many Christians who object to Santa but do the rest of the nine yards.


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I'm just not following why the focus of your concern is on Saint Nick. You'll find many Christians who object to Santa but do the rest of the nine yards.



Is Santa not St. Nick? Or are you saying Santa is totally a cultural phenom?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

What I"m saying is that Santa/St. Nick is separable from xmas observance for many who otherwise embrace it and so I'm not sure that placing all the emphasis on that is going to be some sort of determining factor.


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## whirlingmerc (Dec 9, 2014)

I like Christmas around the darkest night of the year ... seems appropriate to remember the light of the word to shining 
I also like Hanakah (festival of lighrts) is also the 25th of the month (Jewish month)

However, I would not emphasize the particular day or even insist one observe it.
I think Calvin didn't do special Christmas sermons but continued where he was as he preached and that's fine... according to conscience.


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> What I"m saying is that Santa/St. Nick is separable from xmas observance for many who otherwise embrace it and so I'm not sure that placing all the emphasis on that is going to be some sort of determining factor.



I hear you and guess my point is many if not all who "display" Santa do so around Dec.  Of course I have no problem reading of the contibutions of the saints.....year round.


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## whirlingmerc (Dec 9, 2014)

I would like to hear a sermon on how at the Council of Nicea St Nick slapped Areas in front of the emperor and had to sit out the council in jail
If you do the crime you do the time, even if you're Santa.... and the dark dwarf, Athenasius, saved Christmas in his place


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> I like Christmas around the darkest night of the year ... seems appropriate to remember the light of the word to shining
> I also like Hanakah (festival of lighrts) is also the 25th of the month (Jewish month)
> 
> However, I would not emphasize the particular day or even insist one observe it.
> I think Calvin didn't do special Christmas sermons but continued where he was as he preached and that's fine... according to conscience.



"I would not emphasize" like you just did?


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## earl40 (Dec 9, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> I would like to hear a sermon on how at the Council of Nicea St Nick slapped Areas in front of the emperor and had to sit out the council in jail
> If you do the crime you do the time, even if you're Santa.... and the dark dwarf, Athenasius, saved Christmas in his place



I wonder if he used an open fist?


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## whirlingmerc (Dec 9, 2014)

Well... would it be a slap if it was closed? I assume plea bargain to a lesser offence was not yet popular

Yes... to clarify... I would not insist someone emphasizes it... or insist on that day..

Related controversy https://www.gci.org/church/holidays/passover


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

"I desire; I like; I think it is cool" etc. drives out "God commands."


> 2 Kings 16.4 "[Ahaz] sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree." Matthew Henry, commenting (my emphases added):
> 
> "He forsook God's house, was weary of that place where, in his father's time, he had often been detained before the Lord, and performed his devotions on high hills, where he had a better prospect, and under green trees, where he had a more pleasant shade. It was a religion little worth, which was guided by fancy, not by faith . . . His superstitious invention, at first, jostled with God's sacred institution, but at length jostled it out. Note, Those will soon come to make nothing of God that will not be content to make him their all."


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## Abeard (Dec 9, 2014)

Would Romans 14 principle of the stronger and weaker brother apply to those who choose to observe or not to observe christmas?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

Outside of the church like a holiday? Or outside the church as a private religiously significant observance? 


Abeard said:


> Would Romans 14 principle of the stronger and weaker brother apply to those who choose to observe or not to observe christmas?


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## Quatchu (Dec 9, 2014)

I would say adiaphora, even for a church to celebrate in a minimalist fashion. My own church does advent, more in name then in practice. The pastor will often do a write up on what it is and how its been understood. We then also have a Christmas Eve Carol Sing. Its seems emphasized that this is not worship. Personally I think its Christian Liberty.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

I can't help but thinking, we sure would have lost the second reformation if we were in the shoes of Henderson, Rutherford, Gillespie et al. It sure seems true we have "lost" the second reformation as far as its principles.


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## Abeard (Dec 9, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Outside of the church like a holiday? Or outside the church as a private religiously significant observance?
> 
> 
> Abeard said:
> ...


Outside the church like a holiday.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 9, 2014)

I don't mind having a day off and I don't mind a free meal at my sisters. However, all these things have to be judged whether they are truly indifferent (I may or may not do it by choice) and will differ between individuals and the circumstances of each action. So no automatic _no,_ but not an automatic, _sure, do anything you want. _


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## MW (Dec 9, 2014)

Abeard said:


> Would Romans 14 principle of the stronger and weaker brother apply to those who choose to observe or not to observe christmas?



The observances in Romans 14 were connected with the divine commands of the Old Testament which were still in the process of being removed. "Christmas" is a religious day of human appointment and to be opposed because it leads astray in the name of Christ.


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## Mr. Bultitude (Dec 10, 2014)

jwithnell said:


> _If_ a church wishes to emphasize the incarnation of Jesus at a certain time of year_ then_ I wish they wouldn't skip over the historic practice of setting aside time to celebrate the escatological hope the church has had throughout the ages.



What are you referring to?


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## inactivemember125 (Dec 13, 2014)

For myself, Christmas is mixed baggage. One i am so ready to unload and move away from. It holds both good warm memories at my grandparents house, and it holds great pain, when I was in the extremists cult world and after. either way, I was delighted to learn that the original Pilgrim Puritans (according to this site ) did not celebrate christmas at all, they just went to work on that day as any day, and called it foolstide
When Americans banned Christmas - The Week

Though my children and husband will continue on in the practice of traditional Christmas, and I wont contend with them on it, for I am to do whatever to follow after peace with all, however, I must say, that having read this history to Christmas and did some more reading online to all the pagan and heathenish practices taken and used for Christmas, i am glad to relieve myself of the yoke of feeling conscience bound to attend to Christmas and if not to be seen as some sinner sinning some gross sin for not being a full participant in it, especially with regards to being and feeling in bondage to the a man made holiday or tradition, what a relief! to know its not needful


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## Warren (Dec 15, 2014)

Can't be adiaphora if it violates moral law. The moral law is God's to judge, not ours to amend. One day a week was set aside to worship him and cease our labors. I was reading the Westminster last night, because I was told to set up the tree, which I did... a little more reluctantly than usual.

_This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy._ chp 21

Christmas isn't difficult for me to refuse. I'm Protestant, Christmas is Roman foolishness. What challenged me is that I have a favorite Passion movie, which retells the Gospel of John word for word, and otherwise depicts a joyful, powerful Jesus with dignity. Something like that is harder to refuse, though I have.


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## Miss Marple (Dec 15, 2014)

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's "cozy." I celebrate because I believe first of all I have the freedom to do so (or I wouldn't), and, I think it is one of the best aspects of American/European culture - a cultural reflection of a Christian faith this is truly part of our past AND our present. Imperfect, yes, but still there.

As a child being raised in an atheist home, I had two sources of information about Jesus. One source was the Laura Ingalls Wilder books. The other was Christmas, i.e., a nativity set, Christmas carols, Charlie Brown Christmas special. . . I believe our cultural celebration of Christmas is overall commendable, although certainly not required for anyone.


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## earl40 (Dec 15, 2014)

Warren said:


> Can't be adiaphora if it violates moral law. The moral law is God's to judge, not ours to amend. One day a week was set aside to worship him and cease our labors. I was reading the Westminster last night, because I was told to set up the tree, which I did... a little more reluctantly than usual.



You also. I am finding this much more difficult to practice, with consistancy, than I thought it would. My wife may kill me if I don't set up the tree so I chose the lesser of two evils this year. I plan on telling my wife and inlaws this years christmas eve service is the last I plan on attending.


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## Cymro (Dec 15, 2014)

I think it was Rev John Brown said, when holy days come in the Sabbath goes out!


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 15, 2014)

If can get rid of it then do so but the tree is not a hill to die on. First reform the actual religious observances and practices. Once you are convinced and accomplishing that reform the cultural, familial and sentimental baggage comes in due course In my humble opinion.


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## whirlingmerc (Dec 15, 2014)

"Come let us adore Him" sure sounds like worship to me....
But I leave it to conscience and consider it part of 'priesthood of believers' 

It is an opportunity to publicly reach out and making the most of the time and opportunities to family neighbor city and world is a good thing


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 15, 2014)

I can't speak to others' practices but as far as Presbyterians from the PCUSA variety, we got all this liturgical worship contrary to our excellent biblical principles attained during the first and second reformations and at Westminster, when it came in under liberalism the same time they were undermining the gospel and word of God. When the OPC and PCA came out from the apostate church they did not reform their worship practices back to what it should have been, either because they remained ignorant or they didn't wanna or don't wanna still. We'd rather have Dan and Bethel's calves and Jeroboam's days set up from his own imagination than Jerusalem's altar and God's Sabbath.


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## Cymro (Dec 15, 2014)

Phillip Henry ( Matthew' father) wrote," Every Lord's day is the the true Christian's Easter day."
Why introduce a special day when the Sabbath is a constant reminder of our Lord's resurrection?
Why invent a Christmas Day when the voice has said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." What has jingle bells to do with,
Oh Lord, thou art my God and King;
Thee will I magnify and praise:
I will thee bless, and gladly sing
Unto thy holy name always.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 17, 2014)

Is it a matter of indifference to decorate the sanctuary with evergreens, wreaths, candles, lights etc. for this holiday? If so, is it indifferent to decorate the sanctuary with flags and patriotic decorations for July 4th (here in the US)?


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## earl40 (Dec 17, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Is it a matter of indifference to decorate the sanctuary with evergreens, wreaths, candles, lights etc. for this holiday? If so, is it indifferent to decorate the sanctuary with flags and patriotic decorations for July 4th (here in the US)?



Allow me to answer....no.


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## inactivemember125 (Dec 17, 2014)

Cymro said:


> Phillip Henry ( Matthew' father) wrote," Every Lord's day is the the true Christian's Easter day."
> Why introduce a special day when the Sabbath is a constant reminder of our Lord's resurrection?
> Why invent a Christmas Day when the voice has said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the
> Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." What has jingle bells to do with,
> ...



that is awesome to read. I did not know that Matthew Henry's father also wrote. I would be vastly interested in reading any thing he wrote. I walk daily with Matthew Henry through the bible, have for many long years.


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## Cymro (Dec 17, 2014)

Pat ---Banner of truth produced a joint biography of Phillip and Matthew. To my mind
Phillip was more eminent than his son. Of course he lived during the repression 
of Purititans, so his preaching was restricted really to his home. But he was renowned
for holiness. Interestingly he was born in a little village 2 miles from where I live, his family
moved to London whilst he was still young. If memory serves me right he was not persecuted 
as others because his father became the keeper of the water gate from which the King would
board his barge to travel the Thames. Phillip would often play with Charles 2nd on the steps
down to the Thames, and so providentially knew the favour of that friendship, when he became
a preacher.


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## Cymro (Dec 17, 2014)

Personally I believe that until we return to Reformed worship the church
will continue to decline in standards and influence. The purity of worship
is the one area of attack that the Lord's people are ignoring, and treat it
as something of indifference. Such an attitude will only foster more accretions 
on the noble edifice which is the habitation of the Spirit, and incur the chastisement 
of the Highest. He will be worshipped according to His will not ours, and by the
pattern he has prescribed.


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## earl40 (Dec 17, 2014)

Cymro said:


> Personally I believe that until we return to Reformed worship the church
> will continue to decline in standards and influence. The purity of worship
> is the one area of attack that the Lord's people are ignoring, and treat it
> as something of indifference. Such an attitude will only foster more accretions
> ...



In my most humble opinion most or at least many of our pastors have the cart before the horse, in that they seem to be more concerned of the elect that are to be called and not the sheep in church. Of course both are important but as a lay man I sure do wish the pastors would take care of the sheep in the fold already and treat them like The Lord treats His children. This message has been provided by a lay member of a PCA church. You may return to you regular programing.


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## PaulMc (Dec 17, 2014)

Cymro said:


> Phillip Henry ( Matthew' father) wrote," Every Lord's day is the the true Christian's Easter day."
> Why introduce a special day when the Sabbath is a constant reminder of our Lord's resurrection?
> Why invent a Christmas Day when the voice has said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the
> Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."



Amen brother, I very much agree.

As for your John Brown quote, George Gillespie says something similar - "let it be observed, whether or not they keep the festival days more carefully, and urge the keeping of them more earnestly, than the Lord's own day".

I agree with C H Spurgeon when he said:
"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called _Christmas_: first, because we do not believe in the _mass_ at all, but abhor it… and, secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Saviour; and, consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority."


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## Free Christian (Dec 18, 2014)

Im amazed, like today when someone said it to me "have a happy christmas" and I replied "I don't do christmas, but thanks for the thought, you have a nice new year" and the look of shock on their face when I say I don't do it. Mostly from non Christians, which this person was. It kind of makes me think "hang on there, you don't believe in anything, I should be the one shocked that you go to all the trouble you do on a day that is supposed to be for a God you don't even believe in!" But I don't


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## SeanAnderson (Dec 18, 2014)

I really grappled with the festivals a few months ago. 

But, I admit, I enjoy Christmas or Yule or whatever you wish to call it. I always emphasise to people that it is not a holiday (holy day), as only God can hallow days. Only the Sabbath is set apart as a holy day. And whenever someone calls the Puritans 'killjoys', I always explain the real reasoning behind their prohibition of Christmas.

I now take Christmas for what it is: a man-made festival. I wear Christmas jumpers, I eat turkey, I even sing carols. I am fine with the continental Reformed position that, in Christian liberty, the churches may moderately observe Christmas and use a public vacation as an opportunity for a sermon to remember the meaning of the Incarnation and to give thanks.

If I went to a church which did not observe any man-made festivals, I'd also be perfectly happy with that.


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## earl40 (Dec 18, 2014)

SeanAnderson said:


> I really grappled with the festivals a few months ago.
> 
> But, I admit, I enjoy Christmas or Yule or whatever you wish to call it. I always emphasise to people that it is not a holiday (holy day), as only God can hallow days. Only the Sabbath is set apart as a holy day. And whenever someone calls the Puritans 'killjoys', I always explain the real reasoning behind their prohibition of Christmas.
> 
> ...



Sean May I ask (of course I am asking) but will you respond to this question? As a person with a continental Reformed position on christmas are you unhappy for the push to take Christ out of christmas?


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## SeanAnderson (Dec 18, 2014)

earl40 said:


> SeanAnderson said:
> 
> 
> > I really grappled with the festivals a few months ago.
> ...



If the Christ disappears from Christmas and it would simply be Yule again, without any Christian elements, then I would be inclined to say there's no point in restoring it. If these festivals, these crutches, naturally fade away, then so be it. 

But while Christ is still part of Christmas in the public conscience, if only in an extremely diluted fashion, I see no harm in using that as an opportunity to be an advocate for the real Christ.


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## earl40 (Dec 18, 2014)

SeanAnderson said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > SeanAnderson said:
> ...



Is not Yule what you observe anyway in that it is a man-made festival? Is Yule some type of Thanksgiving like we have here in the USA or is it some type of pagan man-made festival? I simply am ignorant of what Yule is.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 18, 2014)

Diluted? If it was only just that. Calvin had the principle of what to do with things abused to idolatry, but there was not a consistent application of it to holy days by others such as Zanchius who granted those who got rid of them held the apostolic practice, but thought they were fine to retain if disabused of their idolatry. The Presbyterians were correct and have been proven correct that having these observances around are a constant enticement to superstition, will worship and idolatry which is why they insisted they be tossed into the bats' cave. 


SeanAnderson said:


> But while Christ is still part of Christmas in the public conscience, if only in an extremely diluted fashion, I see no harm in using that as an opportunity to be an advocate for the real Christ.


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## SeanAnderson (Dec 18, 2014)

earl40 said:


> SeanAnderson said:
> 
> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...



It's just an alternative word for the same occasion, really. The Anglo-Saxons called it 'Midwinter' mostly, back when the Solstice officially occurred on the 25th December (OS). 'Geola' ('Yule') usually referred to the two months of Yule, December and January. We also see the word 'Geoholdæg' referring to any of the twelve days of Christmas. In the 11th century, the day itself began to be called 'Cristesmæsse' in England. 

It's all ultimately heathen of course.


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## SeanAnderson (Dec 18, 2014)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Diluted? If it was only just that. Calvin had the principle of what to do with things abused to idolatry, but there was not a consistent application of it to holy days by others such as Zanchius who granted those who got rid of them held the apostolic practice, but thought they were fine to retain if disabused of their idolatry. The Presbyterians were correct and have been proven correct that having these observances around are a constant enticement to superstition, will worship and idolatry which is why they insisted they be tossed into the bats' cave.



I concede you make a sound point. The main issue is that Christmas is everywhere and man does cling to vain things. If there existed good Christian governments to abolish it totally, then I think few Reformed Christians would protest.


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## Puritan Scot (Dec 20, 2014)

*Candles Up, Preaching Down*

Rev. John J. Murray has compiled a timely and discerning critique on the consequences that have now resulted from the Church having departing from the Old Paths once faithfully upheld by the Reformers, the Puritans and our forefathers regarding Christmas. 

Let us forsake such man made holy days and instead strive to follow the biblical injunction clearly laid out for us on numerous occasions throughout scripture and to "call the Sabbath a delight". Romans 12v1-2.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks for posting that. I shared it on FB. Robert L. Dabney pegged the problem more than 100 years ago in the southern Presbyterian church. He said it on occasion of the pipe organ coming into use in the PCUS but it can be applied broadly. "The reader has by this time seen that I ascribe this recent departure of our Presbyterian churches from the rule of their fathers in no degree to more liberal views or enlightened spirit. I know, by an intuition which I believe every sensible observer shares, that the innovation is merely the result of an advancing wave of worldliness and ritualism in the evangelical bodies. These Christians are not wiser but simply more flesh-pleasing and fashionable." Review: Dr. Girardeau’s Instrumental Music in Public Worship (The Presbyterian Quarterly, July 1889).


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## earl40 (Dec 20, 2014)

SeanAnderson said:


> I concede you make a sound point. The main issue is that Christmas is everywhere and man does cling to vain things. If there existed good Christian governments to abolish it totally, then I think few Reformed Christians would protest.



What if a government abolished all signs of christmas for the reason that holiday is offensive to the "nonreligious"? I think many otherwise Reformed Christians would protest, with myself not being one of them in that I think it would be a swell thing to do even if the motivation is incorrect.


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## CJW (Dec 21, 2014)

earl40 said:


> SeanAnderson said:
> 
> 
> > I concede you make a sound point. The main issue is that Christmas is everywhere and man does cling to vain things. If there existed good Christian governments to abolish it totally, then I think few Reformed Christians would protest.
> ...



I would certainly not object. In the true spirit of Scrooge, abolish the day off with pay as well.

Ebenezer: You'll want the whole day off tomorrow, I suppose.
Bob Cratchit: If quite convenient, sir.
Ebenezer: It's not convenient. And it's not fair! If I stopped you half a crown for it, you'd think yourself ill used, wouldn't you? But you don't think me ill used if I pay a day's wages for no work, hmm?


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2014)

Now in keeping with the original intent of the OP here is an aristotelian line of reasoning. If one believes the observance of christmas is adiaphorous then who is the weaker brother? The one who abstains from the observance or the one who observes? If the one who abstains is the weaker brother why do you practice the observation of christmas in front of the person who does not do because of conscience?


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