# The term "Presbyterian"



## Me Died Blue (Jun 21, 2004)

One thing that has come to really fustrate me is the general public's mental definition of &quot;Presbyterian&quot; today, caused by the PCUSA. Up until less than 100 years ago, if one called themself a &quot;Presbyterian&quot; it identified them with at least the [i:b19bfb52fd]broad[/i:b19bfb52fd] Reformed faith. However, today the term is virtually meaningless except in describing one's view of church government. A Unitarian Universalist friend of mine who I was recently talking to asked me what Christian camp I associate myself with, and I told him &quot;conservative Presbyterian.&quot; He replied by saying, &quot;But Presbyterianism is pretty liberal as far as Protestant denominations go, isn't it?&quot;

I then had to go into an explanation of how that perception of his comes from the PCUSA, and how they have completely departed from the historic definition of the term &quot;Presbyterian.&quot; But because they are by far the largest &quot;Presbyterian&quot; denomination today, that is the perception the general public has of the label &quot;Presbyterian&quot;! Before I had ever studied Reformed theology, I didn't even know there was more than one &quot;Presbyterian&quot; denomination, and my opinion of Presbyterians was solely based on what I didn't know was the PCUSA. And after I had converted to the Reformed faith, and once I learned the truth about the denominations and the history of Presbyterianism, when I told my parents that I planned to join a Presbyterian church once I went to college, they replied by basically saying, &quot;But even though you disagree with a lot of the Assemblies of God, Chris, Presbyterians certainly have much more error than us, in their practices like ordaining homosexuals, supporting abortion and the like.&quot; Even they didn't know that the term &quot;Presbyterian&quot; presently or historically meant anything different from what the PCUSA represents!

How do you all briefly answer people (Christian and non-Christian) when they ask you what Christian camp or denomination you are part of? I can't see going into the above historical explanation every time someone asks me about what denomination I'm in. Furthermore, I don't just want to describe myself as &quot;conservative Presbyterian,&quot; because that doesn't convey the association with Reformed theology, but rather, to many people, that would just mean a generic evangelical who happens to not agree with a lot of the liberalism in many PCUSA churches. How do you all feel about what the PCUSA has done to the term &quot;Presbyterian&quot; in today's culture, and how we can clarify the historical truth? It makes me sick.

In Christ,


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## wsw201 (Jun 21, 2004)

Because the PCUSA, and their theology, is the largest and most widely recognized, I've gotten use to having to explain the history of the Presbyterian Church. If you figure out something else, let me know.


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## cih1355 (Jun 21, 2004)

[quote:bf365a3674][i:bf365a3674]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:bf365a3674]

How do you all briefly answer people (Christian and non-Christian) when they ask you what Christian camp or denomination you are part of? I can't see going into the above historical explanation every time someone asks me about what denomination I'm in. Furthermore, I don't just want to describe myself as &quot;conservative Presbyterian,&quot; because that doesn't convey the association with Reformed theology, but rather, to many people, that would just mean a generic evangelical who happens to not agree with a lot of the liberalism in many PCUSA churches. How do you all feel about what the PCUSA has done to the term &quot;Presbyterian&quot; in today's culture, and how we can clarify the historical truth? It makes me sick.

In Christ, [/quote:bf365a3674]

I attend a non-denominational church. When I talk with non-Christians and they ask me what church I go to, I say that I go to a Christian church that is not affiliated with any denomination and I briefly explain what my church believes. If I were to only say, &quot;non-denominational church&quot;, they would not have any idea what I'm talking about.


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## Craig (Jun 21, 2004)

I just tell people I'm Reformed...after all, the &quot;Dutch&quot; Reformed churches use a Presbyterian gov't...I'd rather call myself what reflects my theology...and yes, my theology also informs me that the Presbyterian form of church gov't is the best.

Does that make sense? Also, I do have it kinda easier than the PCA'ers...if people want to know my denom I say [i:5067d86012]Orthodox[/i:5067d86012] Presbyterian. Then they know I'm a boring, stodgy calvinist


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 21, 2004)

Most of the time I say &quot;conservtive Presbyterian&quot; or &quot;conservative Protestant.&quot; I sometimes use Reformed, but usually I get funny looks because most people have no clue what that means. If people ask further then I breifly explain the different denominations of Presbyterians adn what doctinres I hold to from the Protestant Reformation. But I never use the word &quot;fundamentalist.&quot; As Machen said, I'm a Calvinist, not a fundamentalist.


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## cupotea (Jun 22, 2004)

Excuse me if this has already been said...

&quot;Presbyterian&quot; is, really, just a term denoting a specific form of church government. It came to be applied to the State Church in Scotland and to some of the dissenters in England because their view of church government was the distinguishing feature of their dissent from the established episcopal church and it should be added more pointedly from the puritans who remained in communion with Canterbury. 

Thus the Cumberland Presbyterians, who split from the Southern Presbyterian Church during the 2nd Great Awakening specifically over the doctrine of limited atonement are nonetheless Presbyterians since they are ruled by elders acting in congress and subject to a General Assembly. And this is regardless of their doctrinal nonconformity to the WCF.

It might be better to say that you are Reformed since there is no essential difference either in doctrine or in polity between the continental and the British church. Also...even though there are a couple of liberal churches who bear the word &quot;Reformed&quot; in their denominational appellation, they are nowhere near as large and as well known as the PC(USA). Also, they seem to be dying out.

Again, I said the [b:0c5bbcd3d5]liberal[/b:0c5bbcd3d5] Reformed of Dutch heritage (The RCA and parts of the CRC, specifically), [i:0c5bbcd3d5]not[/i:0c5bbcd3d5] the conservative strands (URC, PRCNA, etc.). If there is a real crime, it's not that liberals call themselves Presbyterian but that some actually have the gall to consider themselves Reformed.


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 22, 2004)

But even though the term [i:bdb29d03a1]theoretically[/i:bdb29d03a1] and [i:bdb29d03a1]linguistically[/i:bdb29d03a1] refers to church government, historically it has always meant much more than that; and it is that further meaning that the PCUSA has misrepresented and made utterly meaningless. Nonetheless, I do see the wisdom in going by the label &quot;Reformed,&quot; but that still doesn't remove my frustration at the PCUSA for disrupting the [i:bdb29d03a1]historical[/i:bdb29d03a1] meaning of the term &quot;Presbyterian.&quot; I like the responses to this thread - keep 'em coming.


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## Irishcat922 (Jun 22, 2004)

I wonder if it has any better of a conotation in say Scotland or Europe. Are their mainline Presbyterians as liberal as the usa church here?


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## cupotea (Jun 22, 2004)

Irish,

The State Churches in Scotland and the Netherlands are pretty liberal but both countries boast burgeoning free Presbyterian and Reformed Church movements.

The same is true of Northern Ireland, home to the redoubtable Dr. Iain Paisley, a Presbyterian of some muster.

I mention this last because of your nick...and because I like Dr. Paisley...


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## Irishcat922 (Jun 22, 2004)

Where in Northern Ireland? Maybe, Lord willing I'll go visit one day. I'd like to go to Donegal we probably have family still there.


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## grace2U (Jun 25, 2004)

In [b:c85217f526]England[/b:c85217f526], Presbyterianism has all but disappeared. The original Presbyterian church had become almost entirely unitarian by about 1715, and faded away altogether. A Presbyterian church was set up again in the 19th Century, but became thoroughly liberal, and in the 1970s it united with the equally liberal Congregational Church, to become the [i:c85217f526]United Reformed Church[/i:c85217f526]. Well, united they may be; but reformed they are not! The URC is fighting it out with the Methodists to be the most liberal denomination in the UK.

I don't suppose that there are presently more than 20 reformed presbyterian congregations in England. The [i:c85217f526]Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales[/i:c85217f526] has ten congregations. I have attended the one in Durham in the past. It is (or was) thoroughly reformed. www.epcew.org.uk

Outside of that, there are two or three Free Church of Scotland congregations around London and half a dozen church plants by Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterians from Northern Ireland. To the best of my knowledge, that it!

The Welsh Presbyterian Church is also wretchedly liberal. The evangelical congregations seceded in the 70s and are now Congegational. Proper Reformed Presbyterianism is found in Scotland (the 'Frees', the 'wee Frees' and the even wee-er Frees) and in Northern Ireland.

The only Reformed churches in England with a continuous history are the Particular Baptists. There is a Baptist church near where I live which dates from 1652 and has a continuous history of Reformed worship since that date.

An interesting discussion would be to ask why Presbyterian churches
1. Tend to become liberal after 2 or 3 generations (eg. PCUSA).
2. Constantly split. (OPC, PCA; Free Church of Scotland etc.).

Blessings to all,
Steve


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## cupotea (Jun 25, 2004)

Those would be great questions to consider...

There must be a reason why we're known as &quot;the Split P's&quot;


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 25, 2004)

[quote:27d212d891][i:27d212d891]Originally posted by grace2U[/i:27d212d891]
An interesting discussion would be to ask why Presbyterian churches
1. Tend to become liberal after 2 or 3 generations (eg. PCUSA).
2. Constantly split. (OPC, PCA; Free Church of Scotland etc.).
[/quote:27d212d891]
#1 is the reason for #2. Truth is important. If the body will not reform, then they will split.


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## grace2U (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi Patrick,
I'm sure you're right; and it's to their credit that men are prepared to go against the flow and leave an apostate denomination.

But what's the answer to Question 1? What's the reason that they go apostate in the first place?

Blessings,
Steve


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## kceaster (Jun 25, 2004)

*Steve...*

Since I just took Presbyterian Church History, I can tell you what I've read, and these books, not all from one side.

Doctrinal subscription is the number one cause of the problem. When the standards are lowered, liberalism comes in like a flood. When the standards are upheld, the church knows peace and prosperity.

This happens over and over and over again, yet for some reason, we keep forgetting this.

Israel is a prime example. Why would the kings become corrupt after a Reformation? Because they didn't walk the way their father did. They didn't uphold the standard.

That is why I have said many times that I do not live for myself. I live for future generations. I cannot make them walk where I've walked, but I can make it painfully real to them that if they don't, they're asking for it.

In Christ,

KC


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 25, 2004)

[quote:5881280e7e][i:5881280e7e]Originally posted by grace2U[/i:5881280e7e]
Hi Patrick,
I'm sure you're right; and it's to their credit that men are prepared to go against the flow and leave an apostate denomination.

But what's the answer to Question 1? What's the reason that they go apostate in the first place?

Blessings,
Steve [/quote:5881280e7e]
I think Kevin is right on. Subscription is not enforced. Also, usually the most deviant heretics are the best politicians. they know the ins and outs of denominational rules and policies and use them to there advantage. There is also the problem of laziness and complacency. It is the job of the presbyteries to interview and interrogate every ministerial candidate coming into the denomination. Many times the presbyteries get lazy and just assume the candidate is ok because of someone's recommendation or because of the seminary they went too, or even because they would like to go home early from presbytery so they rush through the candidates exam. Over time, these untested candidates eventually accumilate and take over the denomination and soon, doctrinal fidelity weakens all for the sake of &quot;unity&quot; and &quot;brotherly love.&quot; So, there are many reasons for the apostacy, and they all contribute to some degree.


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 29, 2004)

Because no one really knows what PCA means, I usually say &quot;Presbyterian, PCA.&quot; Since it's relatively small denomination (500,000 to the SBC's 16.4 million) I usually explain it further. Reformed, Calvinist, paedobaptist, etc. By then we have to go to lunch because the other person has opened up a can 'o' worms.


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