# Calvin Seminary?



## rmdmphilosopher (Jul 11, 2008)

Any thoughts on this seminary? I'm seriously looking at it. One of the main reasons is that going there from my college I would probably get a free ride, and also I'm strongly considering seeking ordination eventually in the CRC... But I've heard different reports from different quarters, some enthusiastic, some cautionary... I'm curious what the scoop is exactly?


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## Dewalt (Jul 11, 2008)

CRC--- in my opinion is not the greatest, but honestly their doctoral program in which i am and have been looking into in the next coming years seems very good! I would guess from many of the people on hear you may get a negative opinion, but their historical theology program in seminary and doc program is great! Dr. Richard Muller... enough said! I had him for a class at my seminary, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and that man is simply great! If you are looking for a seminary and are in the GR area i would love to give you a tour take you to lunch or answer any questions on PRTS and show you our programs anytime!! I have been there for 2 years and it may be one of the greatest decisions i have ever made! shot me an email or call or text anything and i'd love to help.


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## Guido's Brother (Jul 11, 2008)

From what I've heard, steer clear of the M.Div. program. There are many better options for guys looking for a confessionally Reformed seminary education. A seminary that is training women for the ministry of the Word and Sacraments should be off the list of any confessional believer, in my opinion. 

But as DeWalt said, the doctoral program is very highly spoken of, especially Richard Muller. A couple of our guys are studying there under him and I hear many good things.


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## mvdm (Jul 11, 2008)

In terms of the CRC, I'd concur that this is not a good choice if you intend to pursue ministry in a confessional Reformed denomination. 

As for Calvin Seminary, it has been the leading force to lead the CRC into its present abysmal state. To quote one minister, "_ I wouldn't let my dog play frisbee on the lawn of that campus"._

That is not to say you can't find good professors/classes there. You can. Dr. John Bolt is good, for example. But in terms of overall prepartion for the ministry---in the published words of one CRC minister---Calvin Seminary will require you to _"learn a hermenuetic that paves the way to hell."_ 

No doubt you are exposed to the CRC at the college you attend, since it is predominately founded by and populated by CRC-ers. I understand that. My sister and brother attended there. My son presently attends there as well. But I pray that you will see that heading down the Calvin/CRC path will not be a happy one if you love the Reformed faith.

Look at PRTS in GR. Or Mid-America in Dyer, IN. Or RTS in Missisippi. Just about anywhere but Calvin.

Blessings on your pursuit of God's call on your life.


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## rmdmphilosopher (Jul 11, 2008)

A hermenuetic that paves the way to hell... Wow. What, specifically, do you mean? Are we talking extreme liberal higher-criticism type stuff? Or something else so dangerous we can't name it? 

That's the kind of description I get all the time from the people who don't like Calvin, and that's what I would really like expounded upon...


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## SolaGratia (Jul 11, 2008)

RMDM Philosopher,

You don't need an explanation you need "spiritual discernment."


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## rmdmphilosopher (Jul 11, 2008)

Ouch... I'm really _trying_ to exercise some spiritual discernment here. I feel very ignorant, probably I am, but I have a lot of opposite testimonials ringing in my ears which is why I came here where I knew the general tone would be different, so I could gather some specific points to make against the other side in my internal debate... You know what I mean?

Sometimes it's not so easy just to make a call based on the authority of great fatherly wise figures whom I trust--because between them, as on this issue, they seem to differ. So in this case I thought that it would be good to have some specific idea what some people's poor opinion of the place is coming from. Mr. Van Der Molen's post was a good bit of help in that direction. 

Sorry to offend you with my lack of discernment, SolaGratia.


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## Guido's Brother (Jul 11, 2008)

rmdmphilosopher said:


> A hermenuetic that paves the way to hell... Wow. What, specifically, do you mean? Are we talking extreme liberal higher-criticism type stuff? Or something else so dangerous we can't name it?
> 
> That's the kind of description I get all the time from the people who don't like Calvin, and that's what I would really like expounded upon...



You may find helpful a booklet by Nelson Kloosterman and Cornelis Venema, A Cause of Division: The Hermeneutic of Women's Ordination. They deal specifically with developments at Calvin. Dordt College may have it in their library. If not, check out Wayne Grudem's Evangelical Feminism -- it also deals with the hermeneutical issues in the CRC and at Calvin College/Seminary.


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## rmdmphilosopher (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks! That's what I needed. I'll go check it out. To be honest, the whole issue of women's ordination is a confusing one to me (though I know that will provoke a lot of snorts at my silly failure to see the light), and the way I've settled my beliefs in regard to other confusing issues (such as paedo vs. credo--I used to be RB) was by examining the peripheral but profoundly connected issues, many of which seemed weightier than the actual issue. The book you recommend sounds like it will highlight that sort of connection. Thank you very much!


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## Dewalt (Jul 11, 2008)

k, i do not think i would bash the seminary, being that they are our brothers, but if in GR you have better choices that are just as cheep if your concerned about money. Remember though, you get what you pay for.

ps- the name is Dewalt,... not DeWalt. I am happy to be German, pronounced Dawalt, not dutch and certainly not french like, DeWalt.


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## SolaGratia (Jul 11, 2008)

rmdmphilosopher said:


> Ouch... I'm really _trying_ to exercise some spiritual discernment here. I feel very ignorant, probably I am, but I have a lot of opposite testimonials ringing in my ears which is why I came here where I knew the general tone would be different, so I could gather some specific points to make against the other side in my internal debate... You know what I mean?
> 
> Sometimes it's not so easy just to make a call based on the authority of great fatherly wise figures whom I trust--because between them, as on this issue, they seem to differ. So in this case I thought that it would be good to have some specific idea what some people's poor opinion of the place is coming from. Mr. Van Der Molen's post was a good bit of help in that direction.
> 
> Sorry to offend you with my lack of discernment, SolaGratia.



There is no offense. You came to the right place. However, is time to sharpen your sword, it is a good and wise thing to do. The bible says, irons works best (iron sharpens iron). Your asking the right questions, keep on!


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## mvdm (Jul 11, 2008)

rmdmphilosopher said:


> A hermenuetic that paves the way to hell... Wow. What, specifically, do you mean? Are we talking extreme liberal higher-criticism type stuff? Or something else so dangerous we can't name it?
> 
> That's the kind of description I get all the time from the people who don't like Calvin, and that's what I would really like expounded upon...



Wes' recommendation for reading is good. It is also good you are getting counsel from father figures you trust. But some fatherly figures can be sincere, nice men, but sincerely dead wrong, confused, or blind. You need to consider the nature of the glowing reports and why they are glowing. 

It would take way too much "ink" to go into here, but present dominant theological posture of the CRC is just an offshoot of the rotten root the "higher-criticism" liberal stuff. It's just repackaged. Read through the past 10 to 20 years of Synodical reports and you will see a consistent pattern of denying the perspecuity and authority of scripture, elevation of organizational unity over confessional orthodoxy. When Calvin College can invite Brian McLaren to its "worship institute" to gain "insight", that should make a confessional Christian nauseous. When the TNIV is adopted as fitting for worship, that should tell even you more. When the Heidelberg and Belgic are amended unilaterally to suit agendas, they break fellowship with the historic confessional churches. When NAPARC expells them and the CRC won't heed the call to repentance, you should consider these brother denominations' judgment. When the CRC is considering adopting the Belhar Confession as a fourth confessional standard, red klaxon sirens should be going off in the basement. When ministers routinely denomination bow at the alter of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels, recongnize you are witnessing a denomination that is confessional in name only. When the CRC has committees openly calling for essentially scrapping the Form of Subscription, you know the "official" end of confessionalism is in sight. 

I am only skating the surface here, but you asked for more info, so I hit just a few of the lowlights. 

If you can navigate all that and maintain your integrety in the ministry, you are a better man than I. In all seriousness, if you still are genuinely led to the ministry in the CRC, I pray that you go with a missionary spirit, for the field is teeming and there are manifold sheep without a shepherd.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 11, 2008)

Dewalt said:


> CRC--- in my opinion is not the greatest, but honestly their doctoral program in which i am and have been looking into in the next coming years seems very good! I would guess from many of the people on hear you may get a negative opinion, but their historical theology program in seminary and doc program is great! Dr. Richard Muller... enough said! I had him for a class at my seminary, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and that man is simply great! If you are looking for a seminary and are in the GR area i would love to give you a tour take you to lunch or answer any questions on PRTS and show you our programs anytime!! I have been there for 2 years and it may be one of the greatest decisions i have ever made! shot me an email or call or text anything and i'd love to help.



 

I more than likely will be in the Th.M program at PRTS in the Fall of '09 and look forward to it.


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## rmdmphilosopher (Jul 11, 2008)

Wow, mvdm. You know, I never heard the CRC described as so bad. Probably just a feature of the location of my school. I have to admit that I had looked on my desire to minister in that denomination as a sort of missionary impulse since it joined my greater, older potent sense of calling to the ministry of Christ... But now that you paint the picture that clearly--and I've been doing some research into the things you mentioned, and discovering more in the meantime--I wonder whether I would be the influence or the influenced. This is something for extended further prayer and consideration. It's a knotty and complicated issue in my case, because I have very good reasons to want to embark on just such a 'missionary' endeavor--but not, certainly, at the expense of my personal orthodox integrity. Thankyou for that clear view of the situation.

Oh--and to Dewalt, money isn't really a consideration in where I go to seminary. The free-ride to Calvin would just be a nice side-benefit. I want to go to the place that prepares me to serve God best.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Robert -

I think I'll have to echo many of the comments already made - if you're looking at ordination and an MDiv program, I'd avoid Calvin. Have you thought of Westminster West? MARS? RTS? RPTS in Pittsburgh? There are lots of options that ground themselves far more solidly than Calvin does (from what I've heard) - and others I'm sure I'm missing. Take a serious look at all your options...

Todd


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 11, 2008)

Robert,

I thought the same thing when I came to Pittsburgh Theo Sem. That I was going to be a "lamp in a dark place". Well I wasted a lot of time and effort that could have been spent going to RPTS (a place I highly recommend) for my M. Div. Thankfully I had that place to fall back on for some extra classwork.


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## Dawie (Jul 20, 2008)

mvdm said:


> It would take way too much "ink" to go into here, but present dominant theological posture of the CRC is just an offshoot of the rotten root the "higher-criticism" liberal stuff. It's just repackaged. Read through the past 10 to 20 years of Synodical reports and you will see a consistent pattern of denying the perspecuity and authority of scripture, elevation of organizational unity over confessional orthodoxy. When Calvin College can invite Brian McLaren to its "worship institute" to gain "insight", that should make a confessional Christian nauseous. When the TNIV is adopted as fitting for worship, that should tell even you more. When the Heidelberg and Belgic are amended unilaterally to suit agendas, they break fellowship with the historic confessional churches. When NAPARC expells them and the CRC won't heed the call to repentance, you should consider these brother denominations' judgment. When the CRC is considering adopting the Belhar Confession as a fourth confessional standard, red klaxon sirens should be going off in the basement. When ministers routinely denomination bow at the alter of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels, recongnize you are witnessing a denomination that is confessional in name only. When the CRC has committees openly calling for essentially scrapping the Form of Subscription, you know the "official" end of confessionalism is in sight.
> 
> I am only skating the surface here, but you asked for more info, so I hit just a few of the lowlights.



Sounds a lot like the current state of the biggest denomination here in South-Africa, the Dutch Reformed church (NGK) - in fact I looked at a CRC site yesterday after visiting the Calvin site, and the CRC building immediately reminded me of the Dutch Reformed Church. 

The Dutch Reformed church are co-responsible for the vile Belhar confession - THE social gospel confession. Most of the Afrikaners grew up in the DR church; I was baptised there, left them in 2000. They are so far to the left in everything; have completely capitulated to the world. 



> The NGK's position
> 
> The NGK's opinion of the Belhar Confession varied over the years. Initially, the NGK rejected the confession as being a political document or as a statement of so-called Liberation Theology. Some time later the NGK acknowledged that the document's contents were true, with the proviso that references in the Belhar Confession to "the poor" not be regarded as as an implicit reference to non-whites. In recent years the NGK accepted the contents of the confession without provisos.


Source:

I actually went to go see a couple of their "new style" services last year - it was shocking - in the morning they have a hypocritical "traditional" service, followed by a fleshy humanist "God loves the world" service, and at night they really let rip with band etc, "for the youth" - charismatic almost. When even the most respectable church starts going down the worldly fleshy humanist path, there's no stopping them. Strangely enough, they also were playing video of Bill Hybels, sharing his little moralistic stories, touching indeed. It just amazes me how much alike these churches have become the world over - almost like their is an Universal Confession we don't know about but they do and implement. Most of the churches here have gone that route - they change with the times incrementally, and over time there's nothing left of what they started out as, hundreds of years ago. 

To try change them from the inside I think is impossible - someone released a DVD here a while back showing what is taught in some of the "Reformed" seminaries here - an "anything goes, everone's right" humanistic concoction - nothing really matters - as one Professor said "The only thing we are certain of, is our uncertainties". (They actually show him later on at a Theosophical meeting, telling the Theosophists "You were right all along - all the gods are one and the same"). 

So I'd stay out of Calvin seminary, and look for the conservative seminaries where men are willing to stand for ALL truth (general and special revelation).


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