# Help me counter this argument



## Richard King (Feb 14, 2006)

My oldest son (who is 25 so I can't just send him to his room)
will argue ANYTHING with me but especially scripture. How would you answer these challenges:

first if God's will is always done why does Christ pray that it will be done. Wouldn't that be unneccessary?

and

If no one can be "saved" in the evangelical sense of snagging a sinner from the jaws of Satan by a fiery testimony etc. why does Luke 15:32 say this...

Luke: 31 And he said to him, "˜Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.´"


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## BobVigneault (Feb 14, 2006)

Christ prayed that the Father's will be done because the prayer was not closed circuit, there were witnesses, us. Jesus is praying to set an example just as we see him do it in Luke at the raising of Lazurus.
"And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "œFather, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me."

I'm not sure I understand your second question. I think your son is questioning the anthropopathic character of the scriptures that describe God's emotions. Is that it?


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 14, 2006)

Three things:

First, this isn't the first time you've posted about your contentious son... I'm sorry that he treats you with such disrespect. 

Second, (and pertaining to your first question): We are not fatalists. That is, we don't believe that we go through life just saying "whatever will be will be." No, we believe that God's will _will_ be done... but God has ordained that his will is (usually) done through instrumental means. Thus, for example, it may be that He has decreed to cure aunt Susie from her cancer... but what if God also ordained that the execution of his decree to heal comes in response to prayers for her healing? Similiarly, God ordains that certain people be saved... but God has also ordained that they will be saved by means of the gospel being proclaimed to them.

Third, (and pertaining to your second question): I don't really understand your question. The passage from Luke 15 is simply a part of a parable... we need to be careful to not interpret the story for more than something to illustrate a Kingdom principle. (For instance, some make much of the fact that in this parable no mention is made of the need for attonement of sins in order for reconciliation to occur.) However, the verses you post simply recount what the father says to the older son, which amounts to: "Your brother has come to his senses and come home! We had to celebrate!"


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Richard King_
> My oldest son (who is 25 so I can't just send him to his room)
> will argue ANYTHING with me but especially scripture. How would you answer these challenges:
> 
> ...



Short answer: Teach him how to read in context  

Long answer: 
God's "will" is used in different senses in Scripture. There is his will of decree, which is never altered. There is his will of precept or law, what He commands us to do. In this particular instance in the prayer of Christ, it is an act of submission on His part. He is willfully submitting to the task the Father has appointed to Him, despite all the suffering and agony He must face. He was after all fully man as well as fully God, and the horror of having to face hell was real. None of us will experience it the way He did, because He knew fully the infinite measure of God's wrath He must endure. It was so horrifying and terrible, that even as a perfect man, He desired another way, but before He could sin in this respect, He fully submitted to the will of God, to accomplish what He came to do. 

Regarding the parable of the prodigal Son, and the words to the elder brother, this must be read in context. The whole point of the parable was confronting the self-righteous attitudes of the Pharisees. Jesus was in essense telling them, that by their judgmental reactions to sinners coming into the kingdom, they were showing themselves to be lost as well. And we must be careful not to go beyond the intent of Jesus in the parable. The ultimate purpose of the parable is to teach them what God is really like, that he is seeking sinners to return to Him and warmly welcomes them, unlike the Pharisees. With any parable, you must ask, what is the immediate context? Who is the audience? What is the original audience suppose to be learning from it? The narrative context before and/or after the parable will give the answer most of the time. 

Hope my  helps out....


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## Scott (Feb 15, 2006)

"first if God's will is always done why does Christ pray that it will be done. Wouldn't that be unneccessary?"

God has two wills, His revealed will and his decreetal (decrees) will. His decreetal will is always done. His revealed will (his law) is not. So when Christ prays that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven, he is meaning that people obey God. It is sort of like a movie in which the director makes an appearance as a character. His will as a director will be done. The final product movie will be based on his plan, screenplay, and direction. Yet, his will as a character internal to the movie might not. He might say "stop that" to someone who does not stop. In his role as a director, he choose that course of action. In his role as a character he may be sad that the person does not follow his command.

Webmaster Matt wrote a book on the two wills of God. You might search for an article by him or send him a U2U in case he is not reading this thread.


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## Scott (Feb 15, 2006)

Patrick and I must have been typing at the same time! Good answer, Patrick.


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## larryjf (Feb 20, 2006)

I would just like to say "amen" to what Ben Duncan said in his post.

God not only decrees the ends, He also decrees the means to that end.


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