# Seeing God



## Scott (Mar 14, 2007)

The Bible says that God is invisible (eg. Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) and nobody at any time has seen God (eg. 1 John 1:18). Yet in the Old Testament God appears to people and they see Him (eg. Isa. 6). How is that consistent?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 14, 2007)

They saw theophanies, or images of God. They saw his angel/messenger or they saw the visible part of his glory (shikina). But of course they didn't see God in his essential state for he is spirit.


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## Scott (Mar 14, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> They saw theophanies, or images of God. They saw his angel/messenger or they saw the visible part of his glory (shikina). But of course they didn't see God in his essential state for he is spirit.


What does that mean?


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## satz (Mar 14, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> They saw theophanies, or images of God. They saw his angel/messenger or they saw the visible part of his glory (shikina). But of course they didn't see God in his essential state for he is spirit.



Will we be able to see God in heaven? I know we will see God though the person of our savior Jesus Christ, but will we see God the father in his, as you put it, 'essential state?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 14, 2007)

No we will not be able to see God because he is Spirit. HOWEVER, and I'm speculating now, scripture does say that now we see through a glass dimly but later we will see more clearly. Perhaps in our glorified state we may have a great perception that would allow us to see more of God. We will certainly apprehend more of his attributes but we will never comprehend (fully understand) God.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 14, 2007)

Scott said:


> What does that mean?



One, God cannot be seen because he is holy and we are not worthy to look at him,

Two, God is invisible, he is spirit,

hence, God has always dealt with his people through mediators. The closest men came to seeing God was when they would see the Angel of the Lord. This was a messenger that spoke for God and even reflected God's glory. Some think this particular angel was pre-incarnate Christ.

No one could look at God and live. Just seeing a reflection of his glory messed up Moses for a good time.

God appeared IN things and THROUGH things. God chose things that we could understand and apprehend - a burning bush, a fire on the mountain, a pillar of fire, the sound of a mighty wind.

For us, the way to see God the Father most clearly is through experiencing Christ in His Word as interpreted by His Spirit. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."


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## Scott (Mar 15, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> No one could look at God and live.


What does that mean - shouldn't it just be "no one can look at God" and end it there? If God is invisible, then it is not possible to look at Him. So, there should be no fear of death in seeing God, as in principle we cannot see Him even if He were right next to us and we were staring right at Him.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 15, 2007)

Scott said:


> What does that mean - shouldn't it just be "no one can look at God" and end it there? If God is invisible, then it is not possible to look at Him. So, there should be no fear of death in seeing God, as in principle we cannot see Him even if He were right next to us and we were staring right at Him.



Ex. 33:18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”


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## Scott (Mar 15, 2007)

I am familiar with the passage. But if God is invisible (cannot be seen), how is it consistent to see that we should fear seeing His face? If it can't be seen, there should be no worries.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 15, 2007)

Scott, what we are protected from is the full WEIGHT of His Glory. God is invisible yet there is a visual aspect to his glory. A comparison is the way that we perceive God's attributes. We understand them as much as we are able in our finiteness. We are also limited by being dependent on what God is willing to reveal to us. As God reveals himself to us he will not go beyond our ability to apprehend him. We don't really need to fear seeing God, these passages are telling us something about the WEIGHT of God's being - that he is beyond finding out. We understand God more by negation, we know what he is not than we know what he is. "To what will you compare me?"


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 15, 2007)

Heaven is the place where God's attributes are manifested to us most. That does not mean He is not manifested in His eternal power and glory here on earth, but in heaven we will percive those attributes more readily than we do in fallen bodies now.

God, however, is no more visible in heaven than He is here.

He does, however, leave "fingerprints" behind, as I would like to think about them, even though God does not have fingers.

When you see a burning bush, the theophany, or presence of holiness in the messgenger (Angel of the Lord) is exegeting God's attributes physcially to the dullness of our mind. Moses sees a burning bush. The burning bush is not God, but rather exegetes God's attributes and tells Moses something about God's holiness.

Abraham saw a flaming torch and smoking firepot. Contrary to converted hippies, no, God is not a flaming torch or smoking firepot. But those objects give us a physical representation of God's attribute, not God Himself.

Moses catches a glimpse of the "hind parts" of God. Did he "see" God? As much as you "see" God in Scripture. So yes, He "saw God face to face." Actually, if you read Scripture today, so did you. 

All these various "means" demonstrate to us the attributes of God.

The place, though, where we will "see" God most is in the face of Jesus Christ. He is the exact image of His glory and being.

The Father, however, will be as visible as He is right now, for all eternity. That means as a Spirit, he is invisible. However, He, the Son and the Spirit will be glorified and "exegeted" by the presence of Christ, and through Christ.


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 15, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Moses catches a glimpse of the "hind parts" of God. Did he "see" God? As much as you "see" God in Scripture. So yes, He "saw God face to face." Actually, if you read Scripture today, so did you.



Would you interpret the "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face" passage in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 as Paul referencing the final and complete word of God, i.e. the closing of the canon?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 15, 2007)

I would.

(PS - thanks for the correction - updated. OOOOps.)


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## Ivan (Mar 15, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> *Moses catches a glimpse of the "hind parts" of God. Did he "see" God? As much as you "see" God in Scripture. So yes, He "saw God face to face." Actually, if you read Scripture today, so did you. *
> *The place, though, where we will "see" God most is in the face of Jesus Christ. He is the exact image of His glory and being.*




 and


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## Scott (Mar 16, 2007)

Matt/Others: If seeing God can cause death, what exactly would someone see that would cause death? As we all agree God is invisible and cannot be seen, tt seems, that someone would be seeing something other than God, such as His glory. So, would it be more precise to say, if one sees God's glory he will die (as opposed to "if someone sees God he will die")? 

Are there any good analogies to explain what it means to "see" an invisible God? For example, we cannot see the wind. Yet, if there is smoke in the wind, we can see where the wind is, how fast it is moving, etc. And people would normally say, "I can see the wind," b/c of the smoke, even though it is really the smoke they are seeing, not the wind in its essence. Does that work - any problems?


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