# If you "came out" as a Calvinist to Arminian friends and relatives...



## J. Dean (May 24, 2011)

What was/is their reaction?

I ask this because a woman at the Bible study I attend said her (Arminian) family has treated her as if she had joined a cult-and that's deplorable to hear.

While I realize that not all Arminians would react in such a way, I was wondering if any of you here-particularly later converts to Calvinism-ran into such strong reactions.

The church I happen to attend is Arminian (I'll have to explain that one on another threa), but to be honest I doubt if that many of the people in the church would even know or care about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism (which is very sad). On the one hand, they don't care, so long as one is a Christian. On the other hand, it makes for some very poor discernment among members, as the church I attend has a bad track record of jumping on the latest fads and trends in Christendom (Beth Moore seems to have gotten a foothold. When I addressed another Sunday School teacher about it, she dismissed out of hand the concerns I had about Moore being unscriptural).

So when you came clean, did you get strong reactions? Heated arguments? Apathy? What happened?


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## torstar (May 24, 2011)

I'm very big in height and girth and have a pleasant disposition so people generally don't get upset with me.

Usually I get a comment about how they just can't accept some point of TULIP as being logical. 

It's all about them and their view. 

Not sure if they really want to declare themselves as the epitome of logic for the human race, I sure wouldn't nominate them.


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## NB3K (May 24, 2011)

My family has put me off as "delusional". They want to keep force feeding me their garbage of "free-will" and I cannot stomach it to hear that God has to respect man's free-will.


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## Marrow Man (May 24, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> The church I happen to attend is Arminian (I'll have to explain that one on another threa), but to be honest I doubt if that many of the people in the church would even know or care about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism (which is very sad).




This is the EPC Church that you list in your signature?


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## fishingpipe (May 24, 2011)

My wife and I have gotten the cold shoulder in some measure for our beliefs. We both grew up in a Southern Baptist church. Though they have never used the word "cult" it does seem that is how they see our beliefs. Wow, you should have seen the reaction when we told them we were baptizing our babies! It never got heated, but we had discussions and what we learned about their belief systems surprised us, as they seemed more semi-Pelagian than Arminian in nature. Here's a tip: Never tell your MIL her beliefs sound more Roman Catholic in nature than they appear to agree with the SBC. 

My wife's youngest brother is in seminary at Southeastern Baptist Seminary. He is sympathetic and may even consider himself a 4-pointer, though lately he seems to be taking a liking to Molinism. Sigh.


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## J. Dean (May 24, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> J. Dean said:
> 
> 
> > The church I happen to attend is Arminian (I'll have to explain that one on another threa), but to be honest I doubt if that many of the people in the church would even know or care about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism (which is very sad).
> ...


No-no. I attend a Bible study at an EPC church and am affiliated with them, but because of my wife and in-laws' duties to a Nazarene church (that seems to be becoming more and more non-denominational each day), I'm stuck there. My wife and in-laws are Arminian, and I started off being Arminian. Believe me, if an opportunity came for me to leave, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


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## Marrow Man (May 24, 2011)

OK, gotcha.


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## Kim G (May 24, 2011)

We weren't treated quite as badly as if we had joined a cult, but we have definitely received our share of lectures from both sides of the family. Since it's been three years, they have backed off a bit and we mostly don't discuss theology. But then our families are both baptist fundamentalists, and we disagree on a lot more than just reformed theology.


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## VictorBravo (May 24, 2011)

Actually, I'd be pretty thrilled if anyone in my extended family proclaimed Christ at all. To them we are merely dangerous fundamentalists.


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 24, 2011)

I feel for you brother. Some in my family were Nazarene. I imagine you look like you have a third eye to them. How is that entire sanctification thing working for them?


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## Jeffriesw (May 24, 2011)

I have only been a Christian for less than 3 years and started moving in the reformed direction about 1.75 years ago. My wife's initial reaction was la la la la la with her hands in her ears the first couple of times I tried to explain it to her as best I could. After 4 or 5 times tying to explain what little I knew, I sort of just let it drop for a while. She came to me with a list of scripture verses and asked "is this what you were talking about ?" (predestination) I said yes tentavely and she said ok, thanks. A couple of days later she asked me about TULIP, again I explained it the best I could ( still a newbie myself) and she said ok. 
After that we have both been moving steadily forward, I thank the Lord daily for opening our eyes together, it makes it a lot easier when you have each other to study and grow with.

The rest of my Family and friends reaction ran the full range from mildly annoyed (all you really need is Jesus, don't worry about Theology) to looking at us like we joined a cult and not only drank the kool aid, but are actively making It. 

Sent from my iPhone


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## ericfromcowtown (May 24, 2011)

My wife grew up pentacostal and the church her parent's still attend is arminian. She did get some resistance and arguments from her parents when we became members of a reformed church. The issue for them was more that our church doesn't have a worship band (we're small and "old fashioned" in comparison to what they're used to) and that we "baptize babies." It would make no difference to them if we were reformed, lutheran, or anglican. I suspect that not many people at their church even knows what the term "arminian" means.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 24, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I suspect that not many people at their church even knows what the term "arminian" means



Sadly, most Christians could not tell you the difference between an Armenian and an Arminian, and may even use the two interchangably


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## J. Dean (May 24, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I feel for you brother. Some in my family were Nazarene. I imagine you look like you have a third eye to them. How is that entire sanctification thing working for them?


 
Now you see, that's an interesting point you raise up. The Nazarene church I attend is looking more and more like a non-denominational church, so the whole idea of entire sanctification is either lost or redefined. Only the older members of the church have any understanding of the doctrine, and it's been softened a bit because many of them realize that perfection isn't such an easy thing to accomplish 

What's actually sad about the church is that there seems to be no sense of doctrine at all, other than "I love Jesus." Doctrine is really downplayed, so if I were to stand up and say "Hey! Calvin rules!" most of them (again, except for some of the old timers) would give me weird looks or just shrug their shoulders about it. The theology really doesn't go past the membership class; it's glossed over, then forgotten. Everything is about works, service, doing good deeds, and it's to the point where I'm actually sick of hearing about it-not because good works in and of themselves are bad, but because that seems to be all that the church is about.

And then, to top it off, the church is having "spiritual renewal" services coming up (read: revival). And I know what's going to happen: a speaker will come in and give an emotionally pumped service for the purpose of having people flood to the altars. 

I really pray that God presents an opportunity for me to get my family out of that church and into a Reformed church, preferrably the one I attend for Bible study.


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## NB3K (May 24, 2011)

I am still on the fence as to the fact where my mother is between Pelagianism & Arminianism. On one hand she is absolutely pelagian in the matter of Free-will. She's Wesleyan concerning prevenient grace, and as he claims to believe in God's Sovereignty, she does not trust in it, because she thinks if she trusts good in all matters, it will be the same as testing Him.

As a child, I remember my mother saying things to the effect that America needs to return to their "christian" roots. I tried to explain to her that those roots she speaks about is the Faith I hold. And not just that, but if our founding father's that stepped off the Mayflower were to hear your statement of faith, they would regaurd you as a heretic. And a vile one to say the least.

I said this in love, for those that will be ready to bring swift rebuke. 

In the last 2 years I have grown to stay away from people that defile God's Grace.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 24, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> I ask this because a woman at the Bible study I attend said her (Arminian) family has treated her as if she had joined a cult-and that's deplorable to hear.



My family reacted this way. Some have cut ties over my Reformed convictions.


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## Andres (May 24, 2011)

VictorBravo said:


> Actually, I'd be pretty thrilled if anyone in my extended family proclaimed Christ at all.



This is pretty much my case too, my father-in-law being the exception. He is a good Baptist (non-reformed) deacon but his personality is very non-confrontational. I assume he disagrees with my wife and my beliefs at times, but he's never brought it up. He loves Christ and he knows I do too so he's happy I do my best to lead his daughter in a Christian household. I'm actually looking forward to the day we baptize our baby because one reason is that I hope my FIL and MIL will come experience their first Presbyterian service.


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## christiana (May 24, 2011)

My family treated me as though I'd joined a cult as well and totally object to any conversation at all on spiritual matters, in fear I will speak Calvinism! It was really painful at first until I worked through the 'counting the cost'! God knows and I pray daily for each of them to search for truth!


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## BenjaminBurton (May 24, 2011)

When the Spirit opened my eyes to what the Word said, I once asked my grandma if she had experienced much Calvinism when she was in school (she and my grandpa went to Philadelphia College of the Bible - now Philadelphia Biblical University - a hotbed for dispensationalism then; they attended/served at Tenth Pres, though, so I'm not sure about that) Anyways, her response was "No, not much. If anyone came into the school thinking like that, they likely had it beat out of them by the time they left." I knew then this wouldn't ever be a dinner time conversation with my family. My dad is Seventh Day Adventist and my mom, a faithful Baptist (somewhat fundamentalist, showing some semi-pelagian tendencies) and speaking in terms of covenants and sovereignty doesn't go over well. 

I was blessed to see such faithfulness in each of their lives but they've all been swallowed up by Bible Belt dispensationalism and legalism


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## Notthemama1984 (May 24, 2011)

Calvinism was bad enough, but when I mentioned that I believe in baptizing babies........


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## FCC (May 25, 2011)

A very interesting thread! I visited at a Mennonite church a short time ago and an older gentlemen who sat beside me, turned at the end of the service and shook my hand and introduced himself. After asking where I was from he asked what church I attended. I explained to him that I was a Reformed Presbyterian and he immediately launched into an attack on Calvinism. He did it very meekly and mildly but it was an attack. He kept returning to the "whosoever will" passage, even after I explained it. When he wouldn't stop and his brother, who had invited me was looking very uncomforable kept trying to stop it I turned to Romans 9, "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?" He said, "Well, you don't have to be angry!" I said I wasn't angry, I was just quoting Paul from Romans. He wasn't even aware that verse or passage was there. 

My family, Southern Baptist, has been extremely stand offish about my Calvinism and infant baptism, let alone the Regulative Principle of Worship. They avoid talking about anything dealing with Christianity when I am around and it has led to some uncomfortable confrontations. As was said in a prior post, count the cost! He is not willing to leave mother or father or brother or sister for Christ is unworthy! It can be difficult but Christ is worth it all!


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## TimV (May 25, 2011)

My favorite story is when the wife of a very prominent Family Radio staffer said I was in a cult because Calvinism was a "name" and not just "Christian". She was Plymouth Brethren


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## Jeffriesw (May 25, 2011)

Andres said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I'd be pretty thrilled if anyone in my extended family proclaimed Christ at all.
> ...




As that day approaches, their might be a good time that will present itself to sit them down and explain it to them.


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## Andres (May 25, 2011)

Jeffriesw said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > VictorBravo said:
> ...


 
Bill, I hope the opportunity does present itself! In the past I have shared online articles w/my FIL regarding infant baptism but he has never mentioned anything about them. I guess at least he isn't opposed! He did once send me a FB message and asked me to tell him about Tim Keller. Not sure where he came across Keller or if he even knows he's a Presbyterian. He might have just asked me because he knows I read a lot.


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## FCC (May 25, 2011)

I pray that the opportunity presents itself also! That would be an excellent way to have them experience a Presbyterian service and also to hear the gospel! As a side note, my father, again a Southern Baptist minister actually began my journey to infant baptism by loaning me Berkhof's Systematic Theology. We were discussing books we had read and he pulled out Berkhof and said I should read it because he was reformed too. He actually studied it in seminary! My wife read the section on infant baptism and book marked it. When I returned home from work she present me with the book and said I should read that section. Praise the Lord, he opened my eyes to His wonderful provision for children! My Dad later was arguing with me about infant baptism and I told him, "Well, it is your fault I am an infant baptist, you gave me Berkhof!" He clammed up then. I keep praying for him.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 25, 2011)

FCC said:


> I keep praying for him



Your last sentence here seems to imply that holding a credobaptist position is somehow tantamount to heresy. I would simply point out that there are many of us on this board that respectfully disagree with the Prebyterian/Reformed view of baptism. One of the things that make this board work is that we all agree on certain issues, while we agree to respectfully disagree on others. I am certainly not praying for the paedobaptists on this board to "convert".


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## fishingpipe (May 25, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Your last sentence here seems to imply that holding a credobaptist position is somehow tantamount to heresy. I would simply point out that there are many of us on this board that respectfully disagree with the Prebyterian/Reformed view of baptism. One of the things that make this board work is that we all agree on certain issues, while we agree to respectfully disagree on others. I am certainly not praying for the paedobaptists on this board to "convert".




Just curious - If we believe that what we know and understand of the scriptures is the truth, should we not pray that others would also see it as the truth, as well? 

For example, in my church we have several Psalms only families. I know they are praying that the others in the congregation would agree with them. That doesn't necessarily mean they are calling the rest of us heretics. Among the myriads of things I can pray for, can I not pray for someone to agree with what I hold as true without someone thinking I am labeling them as a heretic? I would think it would be a very positive thing, as a truth seeker. And I don't believe FCC was trying to label anyone as such in his post.


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## FCC (May 25, 2011)

I most certainly was not labelling him a heretic for being credo baptist. I am sometimes amazed at the leaps made on this board by innocent posts and statements. I am praying for his conversion to Calvinism, or as others would label it, Biblical soteriology. I am also praying for his growth in grace in numerous areas in his life (which includes baptism! . I pray for all my brothers and sisters in the Lord, that He would continue to cause them to grow and prosper under His care and grooming.


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## Jeffriesw (May 25, 2011)

fishingpipe said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > Your last sentence here seems to imply that holding a credobaptist position is somehow tantamount to heresy. I would simply point out that there are many of us on this board that respectfully disagree with the Prebyterian/Reformed view of baptism. One of the things that make this board work is that we all agree on certain issues, while we agree to respectfully disagree on others. I am certainly not praying for the paedobaptists on this board to "convert".
> ...


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## FCC (May 25, 2011)

fishingpipe said:


> Just curious - If we believe that what we know and understand of the scriptures is the truth, should we not pray that others would also see it as the truth, as well?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I am certainly not praying for the paedobaptists on this board to "convert".



Why not?


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## Bill The Baptist (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Why not?



Because I do not believe that the mode or timing of baptism in any way effects our salvation. Salvation is by faith alone through the grace of our Lord. Baptism is but a symbol of this, and so ultimately whether you were baptized as a child or as an adult is inconseqential.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> not? Because I do not believe that the mode or timing of baptism in any way effects our salvation. Salvation is by faith alone through the grace of our Lord. Baptism is but a symbol of this, and so ultimately whether you were baptized as a child or as an adult is inconseqential.



Amen Brother! Those in the Church that argue over infant baptism or believer's baptism are just plainly fighting in the flesh. I love both of my brother's in Christ whether they were baptised as an infant or after they first believed. There are many more monumental things to contend for in the Christian Church besides how one is baptised!


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > not? Because I do not believe that the mode or timing of baptism in any way effects our salvation. Salvation is by faith alone through the grace of our Lord. Baptism is but a symbol of this, and so ultimately whether you were baptized as a child or as an adult is inconseqential.
> ...


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## CharlieJ (May 25, 2011)

I was raised in hardcore Baptist fundamentalism. My family took it hard at first, as did my friends. I certainly didn't handle everything correctly, but over time, many of them have come to accept and even to sympathize with my faith. Much of their change in attitude came through pointing out that my new beliefs were compatible with their own priorities, sometimes even more compatible than their current beliefs. For example, my parents have always valued studying the Bible and always believed that Jesus is the center of Christianity. They realized that the expository, Christ-centered preaching at my church reflected those beliefs more strongly than the moralistic, topical (ranting) preaching at their church. None of them are as Reformed as I am, but I think now they would rather go to a Reformed church than back to a hardcore Fundamentalist one.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

torstar said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> > Bill The Baptist said:
> ...


 
Why the eek, eek, eek,? When I first read Augustine's Treatise on Free Will & Grace, a brother critized me for falling in love with Augustine. I had to give a defense for why I loved Augustine, because I was made aware of Augustine's other teachings that are heresy.

But I say Augustine tought Grace just like the Bible teaches Grace and I did not care about how Augustine teaches that we can pray to the dead. But I knew that within Augustine's teachings there was the Gospel of Grace!

So therefore my defense was, (because I would never give people like Joel Osteen such a pass) that where me and the Arminian & the Pelagian are against in the matter of Grace, I stood in rank and file with Augustine!

So we must always know what is the hill you are really going to die on.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Why not?
> ...


 
This is like saying, "I know that lying and killing is a sin, but seeing that salvation is by grace and not works it is inconsequential." God has told us how we are to live our lives. As Christians we should be striving to live our lives accordingly. Obeying God is never inconsequential.

Are my credo brothers Christians? Absolutely! Do I think paedobaptism is the truth? Absolutely! Am I going to pray for my credo brothers that they will come to understand this truth? Absolutely! Am I going to break fellowship over this issue? Absolutely not!


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## Kim G (May 25, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> They realized that the expository, Christ-centered preaching at my church reflected those beliefs more strongly than the moralistic, topical (ranting) preaching at their church. None of them are as Reformed as I am, but I think now they would rather go to a Reformed church than back to a hardcore Fundamentalist one.


 
I wish that were the case with my family. My mom has been to my church a number of times when she helped me after my son's birth and my surgery. Our church is very conservative, and she always enjoyed the preaching, but she CANNOT wrap her mind around the fact that we have people with differing standards (i.e., looser than hers) and theological views who all seem to get along just fine. She has been stuck in churches she hates all her life, but she won't go anywhere but a Fundamentalist church. She has even told me that she would rather go to a hyper-Fundy church with wrong theology as long as the standards were conservative and the pastor was nice.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > NB3K said:
> ...


 

It makes all the difference how you perceive it. 

You should know that if you want to run with people who believe covenant theology and how it applies to their infants...

Just saying...


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Am I going to break fellowship over this issue? Absolutely not!



Would you stand in one accord with someone that prays to the dead too, or would you regard them as a heretic. Because I stand with Augustine and consider him a true christian father, that God sent. But as for the Osteens, Meyers, and such, I regard them as horrible heretics that need to be refuted in public and on a massive scale. Do you see what I am saying?


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

I would not blame people for breaking fellowship (to some extent) over baptism issues. Have seen it all the time. 

The saddest is people who stick around and won't accept the rules of the sanctuary they wish to worship at, when they have options in town.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Am I going to break fellowship over this issue? Absolutely not!
> ...



Do you see that I have never talked about heretics? I merely asked why one would not pray for those with different baptismal views?


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

That's a good point, Boliver.

I will reflect on whether praying for people with different views is something to add to quiet time.

Good examples do help me sometimes.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

torstar said:


> It makes all the difference how you perceive it.
> You should know that if you want to run with people who believe covenant theology and how it applies to their infants...
> Just saying...



I understand that in the realm of Reformed Theology, Infant Baptism is nothing more than a seal of the covenant promise, as the Isrealites had circumcision, the Church on this side of the Cross has Baptism as the seal or sign of the promise given to them from God.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> I understand that in the realm of Reformed Theology, Infant Baptism is nothing more than a seal of the covenant promise, as the Isrealites had circumcision, the Church on this side of the Cross has Baptism as the seal or sign of the promise given to them from God.



I would state that it is much more that just a seal.

Also it is not a seal or sign; it is a sign AND seal. Romans 4:11


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Do you see that I have never talked about heretics? I merely asked why one would not pray for those with different baptismal views?



Yes I see your point, but my point is that this is something that I would never even think of drawling a line in the sand. On the matter of grace, on the other hand, we are in one spirit INSEPARABLE! I hope and pray. This is why I used the analogy of Augustine. The doctrine of grace is the hill I will die on to defend.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> Also it is not a seal or sign; it is a sign AND seal. Romans 4:11



Thank you for the correction.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > It makes all the difference how you perceive it.
> ...


 

"Nothing more" isn't the best way to put it... but I understand where you are coming from.

Have you really studied the understanding of Reformed views on the sacraments? Especially the Lord's Supper, way more difficult than baptism...

Could you survive a grilling by elders on it if you were pretending to seek membership at a Reformed church?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Do you see that I have never talked about heretics? I merely asked why one would not pray for those with different baptismal views?
> ...


 
I don't think you are seeing my point. I am not drawing a line in the sand and I am not saying baptism is a hill to die on. I simply stated that I pray for my credo brothers. I pray for them just as I pray for my Dispensational brothers, my pictures-of-Jesus in the sanctuary brothers, my NPW brothers, and a whole host of other brothers who I think are wrong.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I would state that it is much more that just a seal.



I don't know.I think Calvin was of the opinion that one may be baptised but if they have not faith their baptism meant nothing. Or is it faith that makes the sacrament worth of any value.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> I don't think you are seeing my point. I am not drawing a line in the sand and I am not saying baptism is a hill to die on.



I am not saying you, but there are a host of "so-called" believers in the baptist church that believe that people who baptise their infants are utter children of the devil. I think they are completely crazy, just like they would think I am crazy for loving Augustine.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

Invoking Augustine and Calvin isn't solidifying your point amongst people who live it....


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> I don't know.I think Calvin was of the opinion that one may be baptised but if they have not faith their baptism meant nothing. Or is it faith that makes the sacrament worth of any value.



It isn't that their baptism meant nothing. It simply does not have any eternal value. Baptism is a means of grace and I believe that grace is received on all that are baptized whether they ever come to saving faith or not. I Cor. 7:14


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

torstar said:


> Invoking Augustine and Calvin isn't solidifying your point amongst people who live it....



Can you elaborate please?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> I am not saying you, but there are a host of "so-called" believers in the baptist church that believe that people who baptise their infants are utter children of the devil.



Ah so you know my family?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> Can you elaborate please?



He is just stating that you cannot appeal to Augustine or Calvin as an argument against paedos. Those guys are at odds with you.


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## FCC (May 25, 2011)

Well, I am sorry that the thread fell apart because of my statement! If the discussion is going to continue down these lines then possibly another thread should be started entitle, "What issues should separate brethren?" 

Apart from that, I have family that are Southern Baptist. I have friends that are Anabaptist. I have co-workers that don't believe anything at all. I do not have the same sort of fellowship with any of them that I enjoy with my fello infant baptist, reformed brethren. I pray for each of them in different ways and love them each in different ways. I always stand for the truth and never back down, even though it does cause hard feelings from time to time.

One another note, the Baptist position is historically the stricter of the two baptism positions. In Presbyterianism a prior Baptist can join the church based on his creedal, immersion baptism, whereas in MANY (caps for clarity, I don't know if it is all) creedal baptist churches, the believer has to be re-baptized because they do not recognize infant baptism (or sprinkling or pouring) as valid. Whom is seperating from whom in that area? 

Now, my rant is done. May we hear from more who exposed their Calvinism to an Arminian?


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## CharlieJ (May 25, 2011)

Kim G said:


> She has been stuck in churches she hates all her life, but she won't go anywhere but a Fundamentalist church. She has even told me that she would rather go to a hyper-Fundy church with wrong theology as long as the standards were conservative and the pastor was nice.



Right, this is the irony of Fundamentalism. The movement purports that it doesn't put up with any ****, that it's free from that. But many of the individuals in those churches do nothing but put up with ****, and they admit it. But, they rationalize it away. It's spiritual Battered Woman Syndrome. I can't count how many BJU students have confided in me that they don't like their school or their church, but they refuse to do anything about it. All that talk about separation apparently doesn't matter when it really counts.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Kim G said:
> 
> 
> > She has been stuck in churches she hates all her life, but she won't go anywhere but a Fundamentalist church. She has even told me that she would rather go to a hyper-Fundy church with wrong theology as long as the standards were conservative and the pastor was nice.
> ...


 

It is very hard to go through life that combative, drawing up powers of anger and zeal constantly for public demonstration.

Eventually you will hit a whirlwind that will knock you on your behind and you just won't be able to summon up that anger and zeal.

And then you can begin to seek out the Sovereign God. I sure did.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

torstar said:


> Could you survive a grilling by elders on it if you were pretending to seek membership at a Reformed church?



My own church "claims" to be Reformed, but they're in effect actually Semi-Pelagian. I am trying to get the doctrine of reprobation listed on our statement of faith. When people hear this, they say oh no we can't do that, that would divide the church. But I said to them, that you cannot be called Reformed without believing in Reprobation. I mean Paul believed it

Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

Has anyone been demanded why they believe in Reprobation to an Arminian?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > Could you survive a grilling by elders on it if you were pretending to seek membership at a Reformed church?
> ...


 
If they are truly semi-Pelagian, then reprobation is the least of your problems. Semi-Pelagianism is rank heresy. I would run from that church as fast as I could.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > Could you survive a grilling by elders on it if you were pretending to seek membership at a Reformed church?
> ...


 


Keep up the good fight, Jason.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> If they are truly semi-Pelagian, then reprobation is the least of your problems. Semi-Pelagianism is rank heresy. I would run from that church as fast as I could.



Article 11 - Election
11-1 Election is a free act of the sovereign God in which from eternity,1
for reasons known only to Himself,2 and apart from any foreseen faith
and/or goodness found in man,3 He graciously chose from among the
fallen mankind a people unto salvation, that they might be conformed
to Christ’s image.4 Those so chosen He redeemed by His Son5 and seals
by His Spirit.6

I want Reprobation added to that above article, because you cannot have Election without Reprobation.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > If they are truly semi-Pelagian, then reprobation is the least of your problems. Semi-Pelagianism is rank heresy. I would run from that church as fast as I could.
> ...



Then why did you call them seminPelagian?


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## VictorBravo (May 25, 2011)

Moderation

I was hoping the discussion would drift back to the original question, but it seems to want to wander.

Please get back to the original subject of this thread:


> If you "came out" as a Calvinist to Arminian friends and relatives...
> What was/is their reaction?



Thanks.


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## NB3K (May 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Then why did you call them seminPelagian?



If you heard the preaching you would know what I mean. My church is Semi-Reformed "on the letter", but in spirit they are a bunch of free will loving heretics. There are a handful of truely reformed men there I must admit, but the greater majority I can't stand to listen to.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------




VictorBravo said:


> Please get back to the original subject of this thread:



Yes sir. Is that gavel in your hand? Lol!


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## Notthemama1984 (May 25, 2011)

NB3K said:


> in spirit they are a bunch of free will loving heretics.



Then run.


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## torstar (May 25, 2011)

This is a good example about dealing with people with differing views, and we are basically on the same side here.

Make it 50-fold for a cage match coming back from "them."


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## fishingpipe (May 25, 2011)

I sometimes get to the point that I reply to those who incessantly oppose Calvinistic/Reformed/Covenant theology much like RC Sproul Jr. once replied to a man who pressed him on Calvinism being heretical. I cannot remember the exact words, but he said something to the effect of, "Sir, if you believe Calvinism to be heresy then, for the sake of your soul, keep far from it."


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## moselle (May 25, 2011)

Both my family and in-laws will occassionally throw some barbs at us (like making ignorant comments about something Calvin supposedly taught, infant baptism, or a "person's responsibility to make their choice for God), but we are not included in any spiritually related conversation at all, despite the fact that both our families are heavily involved in church, and some are pastors. We have no credibility with them. So in many ways, although they are usually polite, we feel like strangers in our own homes. Holidays with the family are very, very lonely.

On the other hand, my dad has become just the slightest bit open to discussing things, if not outright reformed, at least in a round-about way. He read an RC Sproul book the last time they visited us ("Now That's a Good Question"). I did find out that his parents brought him to a Presbyterian Sunday School when he was little - that might explain why he doesn't panic at the word "Presbyterian". He and my mom both actually enjoy our (comparitively) boring, non-entertaining services. My mom, however, can also listen unquestioningly to Bill Johnson or C. Peter Wagner and "enjoy" their teaching just as much.  With my in-laws, and our brothers and sisters, we get the silent treatment.


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## tman (May 25, 2011)

I am regarded as a freak. I come from a Pentecostal family with many pastors therein. I am a heretic that believes that once a person is "saved" they are secure for eternity. When in fact I am worse than they could possibly imagine. I am a hyper- calvinist that believes that the elect are secure from eternity and that God's people are justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ alone, and are forgiven by His once and for all sacrifice for them and them alone. Christ did not suffer and die for the reprobate.


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## NB3K (May 26, 2011)

About a year ago, my mother told me that the pastor at her church (Christ Wesleyan Church) teaches a "calvarminianism" and that I should come and listen. I sinned when I laughed at her. But when she asked why I was laughing, I told her it was because "Calvinism" & "Arminianism" cannot be reconciled. Then she asked what I meant, and I told her, Calvinists believe grace abounds to the chief of sinners, and Arminians believe grace abounds only if man makes a right use of it. And I said therefore the Arminian system destroys grace. SHe didn't like that one. She always thinks that I am personally attacking her, when I attack her Arminian views that are totally against Scripture.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 26, 2011)

tman said:


> I am a hyper- calvinist



To the Arminian, there is no other kind of Calvinist.


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## NB3K (May 26, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> To the Arminian, there is no other kind of Calvinist.



Everyone that I heard teach against our doctrine is say,

The hyper-calvinist believes in Total Depravity, [Really its total inability], Uncondtional Election, Limited Atonement [I prefer Particular Redemption], irresistible Grace [Which should be Effectual Grace] , & Perserverance of the Saints. [Which is just God keeping his promise to His people]


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## Berean (May 26, 2011)

NB3K said:


> She always thinks that I am personally attacking her, when I attack her Arminian views that are totally against Scripture.



As do Roman Catholics. (i.e., my mother and my relatives).


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## NB3K (May 26, 2011)

Berean said:


> She always thinks that I am personally attacking her, when I attack her Arminian views that are totally against Scripture.



She has no idea that I care so much for her salvation. I cannot tell her how much I abhor her church because she will not see why, but only that I am against everything she believes therefore being against her. I pray to God every time this passes my mind that He would open her eyes and make ears hear, and bless her with a heart to understand so she will turn. This should be all of our prayers for everyone, even though we know that if a false prophet comes and deceives people It is God who sent the false prophet!


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## Christopher88 (May 26, 2011)

My family had no thoughts but Christianity is more on the back burner for them. 
My friend when I told her and had our lovely conversation thought I was wrong but could not argue her point well. Now when I mention something she shrugs it off or gives me one of those baptist looks. LOL. 
A para church ministry I ran with for most of my early Christian years flipped out when I started preaching/talking of Calvinism and reformed theology. (This was last year way before I became reformed, I was just a five pointer than anything else) I'm not happy to say this but our relationship has been cut. I and other Calvinist reformed folk are not welcomed in there fellowship and if they are they are told to shut up in short. 

Being reformed in a non reformed Christian circle is always a tough fight.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 26, 2011)

Sonny said:


> Being reformed in a non reformed Christian circle is always a tough fight.



The tide is turning and there is a reformation of sorts going on, at least in the SBC. I attend seminary at Southeastern Baptist seminary and almost everyone I talk to is Calvinist to one degree or another. I would not say that they are neccesarily reformed, but the days of rabid Arminianism and vitrolic anti-calvinism are on the way out in the SBC. Praise God that the efforts of so many godly men are coming to fruition.


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## NB3K (May 26, 2011)

Sonny said:


> Being reformed in a non reformed Christian circle is always a tough fight.



I love giving a defense for why I believe to be the true hope that dwells in my heart. I think there is nothing greater in this world then standing among wicked men(me my self also being one of them) and proclaiming what is the Real Love of Our Good God & Why we ought to Love HIm & Cherish Him.


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## ryanhamre (May 26, 2011)

It got me kicked out of Calvary Community Church, Phoenix.

Within a year of my salvation, someone reported that I was speaking reformed theology that contradicted the almighty mega-pastor Mark Martin, within 2 months I received an audience with a senior pastor, who notified me that I was either not to speak or that I could leave. He was very up front with the fact that I would never be able to pursue deacon or elder positions (... like they even understand the roll of deacons or elders), and about 2 months after that we were in a new church.

My family has been graciously placed in a new, God glorifying, true church; one that believes what the Bible says...


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## Calvinist of the Ozarks (May 27, 2011)

In the small town where I live people don't know what Calvinism is but the do know whatever it is they have heard that it is all bad.


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## Apologist4Him (May 27, 2011)

When I talk to my parents about Reformed Theology, my mom is in agreement, while my dad still mostly holds to what he was taught through the Assemblies of God denomination. I enjoy the discussions with my parents, and I think my parents mostly enjoy them too. My wife was not Reformed when we got married, but she agrees with most everything I've taught her thus far. I try to answer her questions as she brings them up, but I always leave her room to disagree. I try not to press people _too_ hard, I _try_ to leave a little room for disagreement (even if we have to agree to disagree lol) and prefer a friendly discussion. I think with many people, it takes time for things to sink in, I know it did with me. I would really like to see my dad come to embrace the doctrines of grace, even if he does not, I am confident he will be in heaven with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


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## gordo (May 27, 2011)

Hard to say. My Mom is a 'spiritual' women. She believes in Jesus, but I think she is a universalist. And I don't mean a Christian Universalist. I am meaning to talk to her about her beliefs. I don't think my Dad believes in anything. I should also talk to him. My wife is kinda impartial to reformed theology. She is game for finding a reformed church. My in-laws are Baptists. Not sure what they would think. After posting this I am realizing I should share my faith more with my family hehe. Please pray for me that I do!


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## Bill Hier (May 28, 2011)

In my experience, the teaching of what we know as Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, et. al., has met with a strong resistance in the local community of the church here, which is primarily made up of many of the non-denominational denomination, Calvary Chapel.

We have a small home church of people that have come out of one of the local ones, and I more or less regularly hear that we are "stealing" people from their congregation.

It is sad and amusing at the same time: Sad, because it is an outright falsehood; amusing, because what they have done to people, over the years I have known of that church, is exactly what has resulted in their going from 3 full services down to 1 partially filled service, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the teachings of the truth of God, but rather, the mistreatment of those who sat under them

Perhaps that second reason should be listed as sad as well, and this is the amusing part: We have from 5-9 people attend on any given Sunday and Monday, and if what these people claimed were true, we could not seat all that have left their church!

I find the teachings of these people more Pelagian than Arminian, and their joining themselves to such evangelical luminaries as Dave Hunt, Norman Geisler, Rick Warren, along with not taking strong stands against the rising tide of relativistic humanism that is invading many churches is a very frightening sign; however, that there are those who do what they often advise - read the bible - and so leave their denomination, when they see the truth of God that disagrees with their piece-meal approach to the Scriptures, is encouraging, in these days.


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## ReformedChapin (May 29, 2011)

Looked at me like I was insane. Thanks to the Lord, I managed to (well the Lord did) help them understand the 5 points and cleared several of their preconcived notions. 3-5 new Calvinists came out of my talks with my friends and family. Since I came out of Calvary Chapel people just resorted to tell people in my church not to talk to me anymore because I was "leading people away from the truth."


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## interalia (May 30, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Calvinism was bad enough, but when I mentioned that I believe in baptizing babies........


 
...the response from my in-laws was "oh, then they will just get baptized by immersion after they choose to become Christians and make a real profession of faith? The baby water ting is just like a dedication? *sigh*


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## cajunhillbilly53 (May 31, 2011)

I told my dad and he just said, Okay. He remained a dispensationalist all his life and nothing I said about covenant theology would change his views. He is now where he can clearly see the error of his views. Plus he is enjoying what the early theologians refer to as the beautific vision of God.


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## Calvin87 (Jun 8, 2011)

My best friend at the time told me that I was going to get a millstone hung around my neck...that is until he became a Calvinist himself. .


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## Reformed Elder (Jun 9, 2011)

I came to the Doctrine of "Divine" Grace (Augustinian expression) while serving as a youth pastor in an IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) church. I actually opened up the Bible and started studying it (as opposed to just reading it). It is a mazing what you can "read" in the Bible. Of course this church is highly "free-will/semi-Pelagius and dispensational and I found myself recognizing the tenets of 'Open Theism' and out right heresy (i.e. "Since Satan is called the prince of the power of the air, then it must be that Satan has control over the weather and storms." Thus Katrina was the work of the devil.). My wife was a staunch IFB as is my family and most of hers. When I revealed to her (in layers of time) that I was no longer a KJV-onliest, I was Calvinist, and that I was (at the time) leaning (I am now there) toward Covenant Theology (she had NO idea what that was), I basically caused her to have a break down. It took two years of praying and studying and explaining (and yes arguing) before God brought her to where I went. But not without first being labeled a heretic, compromiser, New-evangelical, and (secretly with my family and hers) deceived and a cult. It has come be accepted that she and I are, "out there" and my mother-in-law will say, "We believe about the same, you just take man's free-will out of salvation". I had to resign my position at the church (my FIL was also on the pastoral staff) and started looking to pastor a reformed baptist church. I have been Elder of Preaching for 3 years and have been growing with the church (a former IFB church) in sound, Bible doctrine. Our families mark us off and we hardly ever speak of spiritual/theological things when together (which is really hard for me. I LOVE SCRIPTURE AND THEOLOGY!) I knew no one 5 years ago who was reformed. Now I am finding people everywhere (even from my IFB College) who are YR&Reforming. The cross comes with the Gospel's Truth.


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