# Help with friend caught up in charismatic 'church'



## govols (Jul 23, 2004)

uzzled: 

I have a good friend from my old church (Arminian), which is typical S. Baptist, that got married to a woman that is charismatic. It is also a health and wealth 'church'. The irony is that they are one of the 'sickest' couples I've ever met. Also, he has been in and out of jobs for the past 5 years, mostly out of a job. They have had problems in their marriage from the get-go. They are the opposite polarities. They've been married about 8 years and have struggled most of the time together. They started going to Liberty Church (http://www.libertychurch.org) not long after they were married. 

The last job he had took him from Atlanta, GA and moved him to the west coast of Michigan. His wife stayed at home. After about 7 months up there he gets an e-mail from his wife saying that she was ready for a divorce. E-mail, not phone call or wait until he got home on the weekend. There does not seem to be any adultery or anything like that involved.

What can I do to help them. Prayer first and foremost but what can I say or give them. I want to give him MacArthur's Charismatic Chaos but would that be a slap in the face? I guess I could always say that they need more faith b/c they get sick too much and aren't wealthy yet but that is what their leaders are saying I'm sure. I've shared with him about the doctrines of grace but he doesn't agree with it. I don't believe he is all that charismatic, per se, but his wife definitely enjoys the 'experience'. I guess she needs a new and better experience and he is keeping her from it.?


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## govols (Jul 28, 2004)

*Do you know of a book from a former charasmatic?*

Joshua,

Do you know of a book from a former charasmatic? MacArthur's book is great. Read it twice. But I guess it would be nice to be able to have a book to give him from someone who was mixed up in the movement and by God's grace was taken out of it.

A book to say, man I was there, I know what you're feeling.

I don't understand how conclusions could be made like that from his church. I guess it is easy if you are not reading God's word exegetically. I mean who, to whom, what, when, where, why and how Acts and 1 Corinthians were written puts the Truth in perspective.

Thank you for your reply.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 28, 2004)

The best thing you can do for charasmatics is simply to get them to read their Bibles. Make them ask questions. Build on what good they have (i.e. Scripture being infallible, the Bible doesn't contradict, man could be wrong, not all "good" experiences are of God, etc.) This is really the only way to get them to change. They do not think rationally when it comes to interpreting Scripture but emotionally. Until they can transition to a mode of letting Scripture speak for itself, no arguments will ever work because it's "just your interpretation" or you are trying to dig too deep into the "mysteries" of God, or the extremists would say "the Holy Spirit doesn't tell me that." Avid study of the Word is what got me out of the charasmatic movement, and it is the common streak among all the former charasmatics I know. 

As for their marriage, letting 8 years of weeds grow up into their garden is not going to be easy at all to fix. But it's possible if they are both willing to submit to the Word of God. Granted, I don't know the details, but it doesn't seem like a wise choice to me for a husband to move away from his wife for work when they are having marriage problems. Seperation is hard enough on a good marriage. Sounds like they both need to reassess their priorities and get them back to their biblical foundation. But again, this is just a brief observance based on scanty info. I'm sure there's much more to the problem.


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## Craig (Jul 28, 2004)

You may want to try Hank Hannegraff...he has 2 books on the extremes of the charasmatic movement. Both are very good at exposing the lies of people like Benny Hinn. This would be a good start. You may, while he's reading that, give him Scriptures to read. It's one thing to own a bible, but a friend giving you specific scriptures will give the greater liklihood of someone reading.

Your friend is in a desperate situation. I do hope he realizes this. You may want to turn him to sources on the net. There are so many great places to listen to sermons.


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 28, 2004)

[quote:4689e4f344="puritansailor"]The best thing you can do for charasmatics is simply to get them to read their Bibles. Make them ask questions. Build on what good they have (i.e. Scripture being infallible, the Bible doesn't contradict, man could be wrong, not all "good" experiences are of God, etc.) This is really the only way to get them to change. They do not think rationally when it comes to interpreting Scripture but emotionally. Until they can transition to a mode of letting Scripture speak for itself, no arguments will ever work because it's "just your interpretation" or you are trying to dig too deep into the "mysteries" of God, or the extremists would say "the Holy Spirit doesn't tell me that." Avid study of the Word is what got me out of the charasmatic movement, and it is the common streak among all the former charasmatics I know. 

As for their marriage, letting 8 years of weeds grow up into their garden is not going to be easy at all to fix. But it's possible if they are both willing to submit to the Word of God. Granted, I don't know the details, but it doesn't seem like a wise choice to me for a husband to move away from his wife for work when they are having marriage problems. Seperation is hard enough on a good marriage. Sounds like they both need to reassess their priorities and get them back to their biblical foundation. But again, this is just a brief observance based on scanty info. I'm sure there's much more to the problem.[/quote:4689e4f344]

Having run in these circles myself for a few years (oh how I hate to admit that now!) I must say that Patrick is 100% on the money here!


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## turmeric (Jul 28, 2004)

Don't forget prayer in all this, the Holy Spirit can do amazing things!


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## govols (Jul 28, 2004)

*Thank you for your replies*

Thank you all, ya'll down here in GA, of which all ya'll is the plural rendering, for your replies. I have been praying for them for a long time and will continue.

They both have a lot of "issues" that they brought into their marriage. Both were from very broken homes, etc. My wife was too but by God's divine grace we were brought together. I praise God for my wife and four children.


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## Puritanhead (Dec 28, 2004)

Heck God can rebuke a "Health and Wealth" Gospel believer when they found themselves devoid of both, and an Arminian on their knees can become a most useful instrument of God as they become a soverign grace Calvinist. Pray for em. Witness to em with the Word!


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## PASSION4TRUTH (Jan 2, 2005)

*Prayer*

James 5:16

I am praying too!


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm praying too. Recommend them to a Sovereign Grace Ministries Church. Reformed AND Charismatic, but without the circus act.... and much of the fellowship that they experience they won't miss.


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## king of fools (Apr 20, 2005)

*Soverign Grace Church*



> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> I'm praying too. Recommend them to a Sovereign Grace Ministries Church. Reformed AND Charismatic, but without the circus act.... and much of the fellowship that they experience they won't miss.



I have some friends that are getting involved with Soverign Grace. They are convinced that the gifts were not done away with with the closing of the cannon.

Anyone have any insight into this group? I'll do some searching on my own about the end of the gifts, I'm sure that Patrick has something to say about it.


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## turmeric (Apr 20, 2005)

They're Charismatics who are becoming Reformed. So far, they've accepted the 5 points of Calvinist soteriology. Still not with us on the cessationist thing.


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## Poimen (Apr 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by govols_
> Joshua,
> 
> Do you know of a book from a former charasmatic? MacArthur's book is great. Read it twice. But I guess it would be nice to be able to have a book to give him from someone who was mixed up in the movement and by God's grace was taken out of it.
> ...



I have a book for you: "A Search For Charismatic Reality: One Man's Pilgrimage." Written by Neil Babcox: Multnomah Press, 1985.

The book is simple, well-written and authored by a former charismatic. 

Here is an online summary and sample from the book:

"As a practicing Charismatic who prophesied himself, he came to see ever more painfully the glaring contrast between authoritative biblical prophets and his own fallible pronouncements based as they were on mere intuition or subjective impressions. The spiritual battle that raged within him is well captured by what he writes: "Thus saith the Lord: How I struggled with those words! As the angel wrestled with Jacob in the dark of the night so I wrestled with these words. As the angel wounded Jacob, so these words wounded me ... I would never prophesy again. Now there would be no more rationalizing. No more closing my eyes. The burden of the prophet was gone forever." 

http://rec.gospelcom.net/TF-Sept92RCAu.html

If you know someone in the UK they can purchase the book for you.

http://www.wakemantrust.org/MySearch.html


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## Poimen (Apr 20, 2005)

It appears that Multnomah doesn't publish this book anymore since I couldn't find it on their website. However Wakeman Trust does and here is their US affiliate's address: 

300 Artino Drive, Oberlin, OH 44074-1263 

Also it looks like you can buy it on Amazon for $1.00! 

Just type in the title in their search box. However they may not actually have it in stock...


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## govols (Apr 21, 2005)

Daniel,

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll hunt it down today.

Much appreciated !


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## Poimen (Apr 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by govols_
> Daniel,
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation. I'll hunt it down today.
> ...



You're welcome.


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## Augusta (Apr 21, 2005)

I am gonna get that book for my sister. Thanks Daniel!


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by king of fools_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by OS_X_
> ...


I'm not too familiar with them. But it has been my experience so far that those who are Reformed and Charasmatic are so only transitionally, on the path to Reform, or sadly the other direction on the path to fullblown charasmania. 
Just encourage them to study the sufficency of Scripture, the soveriegnty of God, and the biblical roles of the apostles and prophets in redemptive history. The rest will fall into place.

That book does sound interesting. I'll have to look into it. 

[Edited on 4-21-2005 by puritansailor]


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## Poimen (Apr 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> I am gonna get that book for my sister. Thanks Daniel!



If you can't find a copy I'll give you mine. I've read it several times and I think it has outlived it's usefulness for me. Besides better to give it someone who will use it for a good purpose than have it on my shelf collecting dust.


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## nonconformist (May 1, 2005)

> Heck God can rebuke a "Health and Wealth" Gospel believer when they found themselves devoid of both, and an Arminian on their knees can become a most useful instrument of God as they become a soverign grace Calvinist


 i know from experience that is the truth.


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## Puritanhead (May 1, 2005)

Some might disagree with me-- as a good starting point, but I think tossing in R.C. Sproul's _The Holiness of God_ might be a good way of giving them a sound and Scriptural understanding of the Almighty. _Charismatic Chaos_ is constructive critique of charismatic theology, so you need to throw out some alternative affirmation of a sound theology to supplant their charismatic fluff theology as well. God is love-- true enough, but His overarching nature is His holiness. From God's holiness emanates not only his love but also his divine justice... We as believer satisfy God's justice through an alien righteousness imputed to our account-- through faith. I recommend you read as well if you haven't already. Boice and Ryken's _Doctrines of Grace_ is a good start as well, but I think Sproul's book lays good foundations for the Reformed faith. It deals with thorny issues--- and helps people get past that cliche-- "God is just so much nicer in the New Testament..."

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2005)

Sovereign Grace Ministries is a very good group of churches. We almost joined with them. Their ecclesiology is a bit too Episcipalian for my convictions. Theologicaly, they are in very good shape. I'd have to disagree with the assessment that this and similar groups are for transitional Christians. There is a bit of that in these groups, but it is small. Just because someone is reformed but does not hold the same pneumatology or eschatology as you does not mean that are in transition to a more mature plane. That not only comes across as prideful it also has a bit of a gnostic ring to it. Being 'fully reformed' does not mean being a conservative Presbyterian. One could argue that there are still some unreformed areas in Presbyterian practce, but then that is another thread.


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## Me Died Blue (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Sovereign Grace Ministries is a very good group of churches. We almost joined with them. Their ecclesiology is a bit too Episcipalian for my convictions.



Really? I was under the strong impression that they essentially had congregational ecclesiology, since they do not even identify themselves as a denomination but rather as a "family of churches," and also because on their site, in listing the marks of traditional Reformed churches that they do not embrace, they include "church government" as one of those things.



> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Theologicaly, they are in very good shape. I'd have to disagree with the assessment that this and similar groups are for transitional Christians. There is a bit of that in these groups, but it is small. Just because someone is reformed but does not hold the same pneumatology or eschatology as you does not mean that are in transition to a more mature plane. That not only comes across as prideful it also has a bit of a gnostic ring to it. Being 'fully reformed' does not mean being a conservative Presbyterian. One could argue that there are still some unreformed areas in Presbyterian practce, but then that is another thread.



Being Reformed indeed does not necessarily mean being a conservative Presbyterian, as there have historically been many confessional, Reformed churches of other traditions, notably Dutch Reformed and Reformed Baptist. Non-cessationism, however, has always been rejected by all of those groups at large, and is also considered by the majority of historic Reformed theologians to be a serious error at that, much more so than something like eschatology or even ecclesiology. That is corroborated by the fact that there is not a single historic Reformed confessional document that is sympathetic to charismatism, and its centrality to Sovereign Grace Ministries forces me to disagree with you about them being in very good theological shape, as well as them being essentially "Reformed." That view is not gnostic in nature any more than the view that Arminian and Dispensational churches are in error and are non-Reformed, since charismatism has not been supported by the historic Reformed churches and their confessions any more than those two errors have been - and ironically, it is actually the charismatic phenomena that has the most in common with Gnosticism, as Michael Horton demonstrates well in his book _In the Face of God_.


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2005)

Chris, 
Re: church government. One of my best friends in a very good friend of the pastoral staff of C.J. Mahaney's former congregation. The reason that he is not a member of C.J. congregation is directly because of the structure. It is not overt, but it is there nontheless.

Re: 'charamatism' the modern day wierdness in not that to which I refer. Embracing the work of the Holy Spirit and charamania are not the same. More later given time.


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## Me Died Blue (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Chris,
> Re: church government. One of my best friends in a very good friend of the pastoral staff of C.J. Mahaney's former congregation. The reason that he is not a member of C.J. congregation is directly because of the structure. It is not overt, but it is there nontheless.



That's interesting.



> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Re: 'charamatism' the modern day wierdness in not that to which I refer. Embracing the work of the Holy Spirit and charamania are not the same. More later given time.



I fully acknowledge that the strange Brownsville-revival-esque things going on in many churches are absolutely not representative of all or even most Pentecostal churches, much less most charismatic ones - and when I say "charismatic," in my above post and any other time, I simply mean the belief that the Spirit still directly reveals anything new to believers through continued prophecy and tongues in addition to what is revealed in Scripture. And that belief alone, even without all the contemporary revivalistic baggage attached, is what I fail to see given sympathy by any of the historic Reformed confessions or significant groups, be they Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptist or other Independent.

On a random note, this morning in my Sunday school class I met a married couple of Underwoods, and asked if they were related to you, but they didn't have anyone in their family by your name. At least you're not alone heritage-wise, though!


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2005)

Well, then we are agreed regarding relevatory issues. The Canon is closed. In that limited area I would be a cessationist.

I have some Underwood relatives in the Memphis area. My brother is a pastor in Hernando, MS. I also have some cousins, who probably don't know me in Memphis. We lost touch with them in the '20s as a family. If you run into any Vamplins. . . well that is my sister and her husband. They are the only ones in Shelby county! I think they've attended River Oaks once or twice.

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by LawrenceU]


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## Me Died Blue (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Well, then we are agreed regarding relevatory issues. The Canon is closed. In that limited area I would be a cessationist.



I am not merely talking about "adding to Scripture," since nearly all evangelicals believe that the canon is closed as you noted. I am talking about the belief that there are still forms of direct revelation _other than_ Scripture - in other words, by "in addition to Scripture," I do not mean adding things to the Scriptures themselves, but believing that in addition to the means of Scripture, there are still other means of revelation as well, such as tongues and prophecy. And that is the view taken by SGM, and which is not sympathized with in any of the historic Reformed confessions (Westminster, TFU, LBC, Savoy, etc.).


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2005)

Whilst there are some who adhere to that within SGM I know of several who would not agree with that either in theory or in practice.


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## Me Died Blue (May 1, 2005)

Do they not all believe in and practice "prophecy" and "tongues"?


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2005)

Prophecy and tongues do not have to be seen as relevatory gifts. I know that in classical Pentecostalism they took on this role. But, that is taking on an extrabiblical emphasis.

A few questions. Does God still lead an individual via the Holy Spirit on a personal level? Does he enlighten his Scripture through the ministry of a gifted individual? Does God ever intervene in the normal course of natural law?


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## Me Died Blue (May 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> Prophecy and tongues do not have to be seen as relevatory gifts. I know that in classical Pentecostalism they took on this role. But, that is taking on an extrabiblical emphasis.



Well, this raises a disagreement all its own, so I won't start debating it in this thread. I would just note that that belief itself has been rejected by historic Reformed church and her standards, which affirm that all of biblical prophecy and tongues were revelational. And again, since it's beyond the scope of this thread, I'm not going to attempt here to show that to be biblically the case, but what I do not think can be denied is that even if non-revelational tongues and prophecy _could_ be shown to be biblical, the historic Reformed confessions of all traditions have never been sympathetic to that classification, and thus if some charismatics were correct on that non-revelational concept of prophecy, it would mean that historic Reformed theology has been wrong on that point, _not_ that that view is compatible with Reformed theology. Two threads I recall in which this was discussed are here and here.



> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> A few questions. Does God still lead an individual via the Holy Spirit on a personal level? Does he enlighten his Scripture through the ministry of a gifted individual? Does God ever intervene in the normal course of natural law?



1) Yes, through providence and sanctification, especially when we openly pray for such to happen

2) Absolutely - which is where the traditional Reformed difference between illumination and revelation comes into play. It has been explained by others here far better than I could, but for one thing the former is always completely attached to, and focused on, specific Scripture passages being understood, whereas the latter usually operates independently from (though not against, of course) specific Scripture text being referenced.

3) I would never deny this, and I don't see a denial of it in Scripture or in any of the historic Reformed conventions, either, as He is free to work beyond His normal means of providence whenever He chooses - and none of the confessions even imply that we have any reason from Scripture to doubt that He still does.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 2, 2005)

It's good to see an irenic conversation on this for a change, instead of folks simply bashing folks because they don't match up to traditionally reformed viewpoints.

Thanks Chris and Lawrence.

Chris - have you read anything by Grudem ?


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## Me Died Blue (May 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> Chris - have you read anything by Grudem ?



I have his _Systematic Theology_, and have read the parts on spiritual gifts many times, as well as some articles. For over a year after embracing Calvinism, I considered his views and arguments to be an excellent biblical defense of tongues and prophecy today, especially in the "Reformed" community.

Having been raised in an Assemblies of God church that was actually relatively conservative on their weekly practice of tongues and prophecy, and rejected a lot of the weird excesses of our day, I had no intention of giving up my views on the gifts' relevance today. In fact, for quite awhile I was set on joining a Sovereign Grace church as soon as I went to college, and I had become really familiar and enthused with their ministry and resources - Robin Boisvert, one of the pastors at Covenant Life, helped me out with a lot of my doubts and objections regarding Calvinism at that point via a few telephone conversations, and sent me a copy of Packer's introduction to _Death of Death_, which proved to be immensely helpful.

Obviously, I eventually came to reject the charismatic views of Sovereign Grace and Grudem. While the study that led me to do so involved several books and articles and much comparing of biblical texts, one of the key works that convinced me against it was O. Palmer Robertson's _The Final Word_. In particular, the significant portion of the book directly responding to Grudem's own arguments forced me to rethink much of what I had held over the past year or so.

To be honest, when I was first convinced of cessationism at that time, I was predominantly saddened and sorrowful - not even because I missed the charismatic doctrine itself, but because I realized I was never going to be able to be a part of Sovereign Grace Ministries in good conscience, and I had become so familiar with them over the past year that I had previously planned on spending a lifetime there. I had no such "familiarity," enthusiasm for, or personal connections with Dutch Reformed or Presbyterian churches, even though I knew that was where I had to turn at that point.

Sorry if I went too far into my personal pilgrimage on this matter. Kerry, have you ever read Robertson's book? It's short, but strong and exegesis-focused as well, and I particularly think Robertson did a great job analyzing and critiquing Grudem's views on the issue.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 3, 2005)

It's on my list to get. I'm still going through Grudem's argument and learning it (I have his book on Prophecy). I visit CovLife every once in a while (though I won't be doing so very much anymore, since as of this Sunday, I'll be at Gaithersburg Community Church - www.gchurch.org ) and still think that they have the BEST Christian bookstore bar NONE in the area (all those puritan works!). 

I'm still not convinced of Grudem's use of 1 Cor. 14 as a justification for tongues as 'ecstatic speech'. I think that Paul was simply using hyperbole. But some of his (Grudem's) arguments do seem to carry some good weight to them and I can see _why_ he believes what he believes. I can't wait to see what Robertson's responses are. 

No problem on the personal experience w/SGM. My question to you - have you found the Dutch Reformed and other Presbyterian folk to be personally as open, dynamic and 'loving' as the SGM folks ? Do you feel the same 'hearts-knit-together' type of feeling (the family 'warmth') that the folks in SGM seem to just exude from the time you step through the door and watch them interact with each other... and you ?

This was a HUGE selling point for me with SGM. But regardless, I'm still a cessationist, for the most part... and like you, I couldn't in good conscience, be at an SGM church. As soon as someone were to break out in tongues I'd be like.....


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## BlackCalvinist (May 3, 2005)

Oh yeah.... I'm busy reading Reymond's systematic in between all of this.


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## Me Died Blue (May 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> No problem on the personal experience w/SGM. My question to you - have you found the Dutch Reformed and other Presbyterian folk to be personally as open, dynamic and 'loving' as the SGM folks ? Do you feel the same 'hearts-knit-together' type of feeling (the family 'warmth') that the folks in SGM seem to just exude from the time you step through the door and watch them interact with each other... and you ?



Well, right now the only two communities I've been a part of that have a number of Reformed Presbyterians are my current church and this board. We all know the answer to your question regarding the second of those! And I must say I have felt very welcomed and loved by the people of my home church. From the pastors and ruling elders to people in classes to other people I've either come to know somewhat well or else just run into a time or so, I could never thank God enough for blessing me with that congregation.

I hope you find the same at whatever congregation you join in the days to come.

P. S. Have you read C. J.'s _The Cross Centered Life_? While I do not believe them to be a healthy group of churches overall largely because of their non-Reformed and (I believe) very unhealthy views on some of the spiritual gifts, I thought he definitely had some helpful and important reminders in that book.


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## LawrenceU (May 4, 2005)

That is an excellent little book. 

Sorry to have bailed on the thread, but I've been insanely busy.

Chris, my sister may show up this Sunday. I'll let you know for sure later.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 4, 2005)

Nope, haven't picked up Cross-Centered Life yet, but I probably will one day soon.

I have too many other books I'm still working my way through.


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