# RPW, Water and Feast of Tabernacles



## AV1611 (Mar 30, 2008)

How would you defend the RPW against the criticism that water was poured out as part of the Feast of Tabernacles and this [the pouring of water] had not been commanded and was in fact Jewish Tradition?

John Gill notes:

...and on this day they had also the ceremony of drawing and pouring water, attended with the usual rejoicings as on other days; the account of which is this (w): "the pouring out of water was after this manner; a golden pot, which held three logs, was tilled out of Siloah, and when they came to the water gate, they blew (their trumpets) and shouted, and blew; (then a priest) went up by the ascent of the altar, and turned to the left hand, (where) were two silver basins--that on the west side was filled with water, and that on the east with wine; he poured the basin of water into that of wine, and that of wine into that of water.'' At which time there were great rejoicing, piping, and dancing, by the most religious and sober people among the Jews; insomuch that it is said (x), that "he that never saw the rejoicing of the place of drawing of water, never saw any rejoicing in his life.'' And this ceremony, they say (y), is a tradition of Moses from Mount Sinai, and refers to some secret and mysterious things; yea, they plainly say, that it has respect to the pouring forth of the Holy Ghost (z). "Says R. Joshua ben Levi, why is its name called the place of drawing water? because, from thence שואבים רוח הקודש, "they draw the Holy Ghost", as it is said, "and ye shall draw water with joy out of the wells of salvation", Isa 12:3.'' Moreover, it was on this day they prayed for the rains for the year ensuing: it is asked (a), "from what time do they make mention of the powers of the rains (which descend by the power of God)? R. Eliezer says, from the first good day of the feast (of tabernacles); R. Joshua says, from the last good day of the feast.--They do not pray for the rains, but near the rains;'' that is, the time of rains; and which, one of their commentators says (b), is the eighth day of the feast of tabernacles; for from the feast of tabernacles, thenceforward is the time of rains. The Jews have a notion, that at this feast the rains of the ensuing year were fixed: hence they say (c), that "at the feast of tabernacles judgment is made concerning the waters;'' or a decree or determination is made concerning them by God. Upon which the Gemara (d) has these words, "wherefore does the law say pour out water on the feast of tabernacles? Says the holy blessed God, pour out water before me, that the rains of the year may be blessed unto you.''

(w) Misn. Succa, c. 4. sect. 9. 
(x) Misn. Succa, c. 5. sect. 1, 4. 
(y) T. Zebachim, fol. 110. 2. Maimon. in Misn. Succa, c. 4. sect. 9. & Hilthot Tamidin, c. 10. sect. 6. 
(z) T. Hieros. Succa, fol. 55. 1. Bereshit Rabba, sect. 70. fol. 62. 3. & Midrash Ruth, fol. 32. 2. Caphtor, fol. 52. 1. 
(a) Misn. Taanith, c. 1. sect. 1, 2. 
(b) Bartenora, in ib. 
(c) Misn. Roshhashana, c. 1. sect. 2. 
(d) T. Bab. Roshhashana, fol. 16. 1.​
Alfred Edersheim writes in _The Temple: Its Ministry and Services_:

It will have been observed that the two most important ceremonies of the Feast of Tabernacles— pouring out of water and the illumination of the Temple— of post-Mosaic origin. According to Jewish tradition, the pillar of cloud by day and of fire by night had first appeared to Israel on the 15th of Tishri, the first day of the feast. On that day also Moses was said to have come down from the Mount, and accounted to the people that the Tabernacle of God was to be reared among them. We know that the dedication of Solomon's Temple and the descent of the Shechinah took place at this feast (1 Kings 8; 2 Chron 7). Nor can we greatly err in finding an allusion to it in this description of heavenly things: 'After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God, which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb' (Rev 7:9,10).​


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## A5pointer (Mar 30, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> How would you defend the RPW against the criticism that water was poured out as part of the Feast of Tabernacles and this had not been commanded?



 watching


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 30, 2008)

Good question.


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## AV1611 (Mar 30, 2008)

joshua said:


> So sorry, Richard. I didn't mean to post that above or by itself. I'm gonna delete those posts. K?



No worries! I do have some follow up questions but will post them on the morrow and allow some others to respond.


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## MW (Mar 30, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> How would you defend the RPW against the criticism that water was poured out as part of the Feast of Tabernacles and this [the pouring of water] had not been commanded and was in fact Jewish Tradition?



I cannot see anything from which the RPW needs defending. Jesus Christ teaching spiritual lessons from Jewish tradition would be akin to Paul and Jude mentioning traditional facts derived from non-canonical books. In either case there is no endorsement being given to the primary source as if it were of divine authority.


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## AV1611 (Mar 31, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> I cannot see anything from which the RPW needs defending. Jesus Christ teaching spiritual lessons from Jewish tradition would be akin to Paul and Jude mentioning traditional facts derived from non-canonical books. In either case there is no endorsement being given to the primary source as if it were of divine authority.



Would you say that the Jewish tradition in doing this was sinful as it was not commanded? i.e. it is an uncommanded element of worship.


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## MW (Mar 31, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> Would you say that the Jewish tradition in doing this was sinful as it was not commanded? i.e. it is an uncommanded element of worship.



It was certainly uncommanded; but I don't usually brand persons who perform uncommanded actions in worship to God as "sinful," seeing as that word carries subjective connotations which goes beyond the action itself. Further, it is difficult to pinpoint "additions to God's worship" with respect to the Jews because the church/state relationship tended to be meshed. Tabernacles (as with Passover) was a social as well as an ecclesiastical event; so it is not a simple matter of saying that their additions were "innovations to prescribed worship."


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## AV1611 (Jul 13, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Further, it is difficult to pinpoint "additions to God's worship" with respect to the Jews because the church/state relationship tended to be meshed. Tabernacles (as with Passover) was a social as well as an ecclesiastical event; so it is not a simple matter of saying that their additions were "innovations to prescribed worship."



Would you mind expanding on this a bit?

In Scripture we find broad commands of what the Jews were to do at the feasts (e.g. Deut. 16 and Lev. 23) but the details we have not (there is no command to sing Pss. 65, 81 & 95 at Tabernacles but we can reasonably infer from Scripture that they were). So either they were commanded and not recorded in Scripture or the Jews were free to add to the worship of God, hence the addition of the water pouring ceremony. Both solutions would, seemingly, overturn the RPW.

This is the big problem I have been having recently regarding the RPW, I just can't see how they can be reconciled.


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## MW (Jul 13, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> In Scripture we find broad commands of what the Jews were to do at the feasts (e.g. Deut. 16 and Lev. 23) but the details we have not (there is no command to sing Pss. 65, 81 & 95 at Tabernacles but we can reasonably infer from Scripture that they were). So either they were commanded and not recorded in Scripture or the Jews were free to add to the worship of God, hence the addition of the water pouring ceremony. Both solutions would, seemingly, overturn the RPW.



I am not sure what you are asking me to expand. All I can say in answer to your concern is that narrative is not normative. The fact that the Jews added to the commands of God is no example for us to follow unless it is commended in Scripture. That our Lord did not explicitly condemn it does not argue that He accepted it. He majored on majors. His focus was on teaching them what they needed to know concerning Himself, and not with reforming the ceremonial worship which He had come to fulfil and ultimately abolish by His death on the cross.


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