# Are We Babylon?



## Jerusalem Blade

In 2007 the former managing editor of _Atlantic Monthly_, Cullen Murphy, wrote the book, _Are We Rome?: The Fall of an Empire and the Fate of America_. It was a critically acclaimed entrée into the genre of understanding America and its fate by comparing it to nations of the past (reviews by salon.com and New York Times). This present piece (which shall be but a brief outline) differs in that, first, it is a _spiritual_ exploration of a _Biblical_ theme, although historical background is extremely important, and, second, because it is spiritual it can only be spiritually discerned; it may well seem foolishness to those not in Christ’s kingdom.

On the other hand, it is similar in that America is again being compared to an ancient political entity, this time Babylon. To complicate things somewhat, for the New Testament writers, particularly the apostles Peter and John, Babylon was a code name for the Roman Empire. As commentator G.K. Beale points out,

“Babylon was the ungodly world power under which Israel had to live in captivity. While Israelite saints did not go along with Babylon’s religious practices, they were nevertheless tempted to compromise. When they remained loyal to their God, they underwent trial by their oppressors (see Daniel 1-6). The ungodly social, political, and economic system dominated by the Roman Empire placed believers in the same position as Israel was in under Babylon... Therefore, here in the Apocalypse Rome _and all wicked world systems_ take on the symbolic name ‘Babylon the Great’...” [emphasis added –SMR] (_The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text_, p. 755)​
Some commentators on the Book of Revelation take the view that the mentions of “Babylon” in chapters 14, 16, 17, 18 and 19 refer to an economic, cultural, and religio-philosophical world system generally speaking, while others consider the possibility it may be based in a particular nation, which is not far-fetched as the two primary predecessors / prototypes – Chaldean Babylon and Rome – were empires controlled by specific nations from their capital cities. 

This sketch will focus on three aspects of America as a modern-day empire: the cultural, the economic, and the military / political. These aspects will have some overlap, especially the cultural and economic. I started an initial exploration of this theme in a previous Babylon thread. This is a development of that.

*Part 1, The Culture of the American Empire*

A. Sorceries

I want first to consider a point pretty much overlooked by commentators, although one – Simon Kistemaker – _does_ focus on it, and that is the statement in Revelation 18:23, giving as part of the cause for the horrific judgment meted upon Babylon, *“for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived”* (all scripture quotations will be from the Authorized Version unless otherwise noted; I may on occasion modernize the language).

Kistemaker comments on this phrase,

“. . . Babylon deceived the nations with sorcery. The expression _sorcery_ relates to the practice of magic (9:21). While it allows a person ‘to control the gods, it is at the same time a gift and revelation of the gods to men’ [Colin Brown, “Magic,” _New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology_, 2:556]. This sin is an utter abomination to God (Deut.18:10-12). All those Israelites who practiced sorcery or witchcraft were to be put to death, according to the Law of Moses (Exod. 22:18; Lev. 20:6. 27). . . And John states that those who practice the magic arts will be consigned to the lake of fire and burning sulfur (21:8; 22:15).” [_New Testament Commentary: Revelation_ (Baker 2001), p. 503].​
Merrill F. Unger in his, _Unger’s Bible Dictionary_, says “Sorcery is . . . the practice of the occult arts under the power of evil spirits or demons and has been common in all ages of the world’s history.” (p. 1039) 

Lest anyone think this is but some archaic or esoteric practice unrelated to our 21st century world, I shall proceed in a moment to show its current relevance. Other commentators (who I value greatly) often think of “sorceries” rather loosely as merely deception and deceptive practices, apart from a connection to the magic arts, but I don’t think their view does justice to the Biblical data. As this is a key reason why I see America a strong candidate for being the Babylon spoken of in Revelation, I shall be developing this point. First, for understanding’s sake, some New Testament Greek background; I excerpt from _The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament_, by Spiros Zodhiates, 

“Strong’s # 5331, _*pharmakeia*_, from _pharmakon_, a drug, which in the Gr. writers is used both for a curative or medicinal drug, and also as a poisonous one. _*Pharmakeia*_ means the occult, sorcery, witchcraft, illicit pharmaceuticals, trance, magical incantation with drugs (Gal. 5:20; _*Rev. 9:21; 18:23*_; Sept.: Ex. 7:22; Is. 47:9, 12). (pp. 1437, 1438)

“Strong’s # 5332, _*pharmakeus*_; gen. _pharmakeos_, from _pharmakeuo_, to administer a drug. An enchanter with drugs, a sorcerer (_*Rev. 21:8* [TR]) (Ibid., p. 1438)

“Strong’s #5333, *pharmakos*, gen. pharmakou. A magician, sorcerer, enchanter (*Rev. 21:8* [UBS]; *22:15*; Sept.: Ex. 7:11; 9:11; Deut. 18:10; Dan. 2:2). The same as pharmakeus (5332). The noun pharmakeia (5331) means the preparing and giving of medicine, and in the NT, sorcery, enchantment.” (Ibid.)_​_

To show why the use of “sorceries” in the Rev 18:23 passage refers to activities involving certain kinds of drugs rather then mere deceptive practices, consider the classes of transgressors in Rev 21:8 who are consigned to “the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”: “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars”. Sorcerers (from pharmakeus) here specifically means one who administers or uses a certain class of drugs to “enchant”, to cast a psychic spell upon by use of drugs and demonic power. It doesn’t mean a deceiver generally or even figuratively, but specifically one who uses sorcerous potions. Likewise in Rev 22:15 where a similar Greek word, pharmakos, is used for sorcerer, with the same meaning as pharmakeus in 21:8. So here we have real drug-dealing “sorcerers” declared liable for judgment.

Some modern examples of sorcerers as used in Revelation? Timothy Leary, for one, the Harvard psychology professor who became an evangelist for LSD in the 1960s, encouraging an entire generation to partake of the consciousness-altering drugs, of which LSD was perhaps the staple. He wrote books to guide them on their “trips” so as to experience other “wavelengths” of awareness. The world-famous poet Allen Ginsberg was likewise a sorcerer, encouraging multitudes to, in Leary’s words, “turn on [to the drugs], tune in [to the ‘cosmic consciousness’], and drop out [of the ‘straight’ world]”. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Doors, Jefferson Airplane, Grateful Dead, et al, all these promoted the acid consciousness of the sixties, exporting the use of these drugs throughout the entire world. They were indeed a generation of sorcerers. Charles Manson also was in this class, although patently demonic, while the others presented themselves as benign sages – they actually thought they were, but were themselves deceived and deceiving.

Recall Unger’s previous statement that “Sorcery is . . . the practice of the occult arts under the power of evil spirits or demons and has been common in all ages of the world’s history.” What happened in the Beat, Hippie, and Woodstock generations was no small thing. Although it was prettied up with Eastern spiritual talk and concepts, the drugs (this includes those one takes in by smoking them) were sorcerous potions that – as per their use in India by “holy” men, or shamans in Native American tribes – enabled one to make direct contact with entities in the spirit world, which we know as evil spirits. Sometimes these demons got their human hosts to “channel” them so as to speak directly to the world, and sometimes remained behind the scenes and powerfully affected the consciousness of the humans without making themselves known. Such were our singers, poets, and writers of those days. Off the top of my head I think of poets Gregory Corso and Lawrence Ferlinghetti, novelists Ken Kesey and Tom Wolfe, and a multitude of their peers. These all spread the consciousness that was a direct result of demonic activity in the human spirit through hallucinogenic drugs. This is sorcery, and these are sorcerers. Now, in the beginning of the second decade of the 21st century, this activity continues, although quietly, under cover, having permeated much of the advertising and cinematic fields, many musicians, actors, writers, and others also having “turned on”. Other nations and cultures, having been leavened from within by these sorceries, became vulnerable to satanic deception in its various forms. They became open to input from the satanic realm mentally and spiritually. The one defense against it, the Christian faith, is being slowly marginalized and even criminalized, and this latter is the purpose and design of the demonic realm. That it is allowed by the High Throne of heaven shows that it is part of His decree and plan.

Anyone who has studied the history of LSD in America knows that its use was not limited to the counter culture, but the CIA and other military agencies used it extensively, both among themselves and experimenting on others, as a prospective weapon of war. Politicians (JFK was reported by the CIA to have taken it), academics, therapists and psychiatrists, artists, men and women from a wide variety of professions all tried this new “wonder drug” – as it was touted – and were transported to another realm of consciousness, what I call “the satanic wavelength”, though others will give it a more euphemistic spin. There is a resurgence now of its supposed “therapeutic” use, per (among other sources) the NY Times of Apr 11, 2010: “Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again”. There is also a widespread campaign for the legalization of “medicinal marijuana”. It is surprising to see even some Christians saying that smoking grass is no big thing, and that the government should keep their hands out of any legislation concerning it. I have seen professing Christians say that they would have no trouble smoking it, especially if it were legalized. It remains sorcery, prohibited – on pain of eternal death – by Scripture, notwithstanding the much gainsaying by some.

Even the purported therapeutic use of LSD and medicinal use of marijuana do not evade their sorcerous properties. Whatever benefits may accrue to users – and there may indeed be some – they are outweighed by the opening of the spirit-world to their consciousness. Spirits may work lying wonders, but the end thereof is death.


*The Isaiah 47 connection*

To demonstrate this point from another angle: in Rev 18:7 “harlot Babylon” is quoted as saying, “I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow”. The retort of the Almighty to that boast is, “Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her . . . in one hour is thy judgment come” (Rev 18:8, 10).

Scholars acknowledge this image of Babylon and her judgment comes directly out of Isaiah’s chapter 47, who likewise was prophesying against Babylon – Chaldean Babylon of some 2,700 years ago. Listen to the prophet’s words:

Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness [utter obscurity], O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, the lady of kingdoms . . . And thou saidst, I shall be a lady forever: so that thou didst not lay these things to heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: 

But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection [fullness] for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments (Isaiah 47:5, 7-9).​
“Lady” in the phrase “lady of kingdoms” is the feminine of a Hebrew word for lord or master, ghebeer; it could be translated, “mistress of kingdoms”, and is equivalent to Rev 18:7’s “I sit *a queen*”. The “loss of children” means she shall not retain the vassal nations which make up her wealth and support; “I shall not sit as a widow” means she shall never be desolate and grief-stricken as widows are. In short, nothing shall disturb her peace, luxury, and dominance over the nations. And this ancient Babylon, as her incarnation some 2,700 or more years later will be, was judged for the multitude of her sorceries and abundance of her enchantments, as well as her idolatry, pride, and the cruel persecution of God’s people.

We see that not only did this ancient Babylon oppress the nations, extracting their wealth and goods by virtue of her military conquests and economic dominance, she also was greatly exercised in “sorcery”.

Regarding this word [your] sorceries in Isaiah 47:9, 12, [size=+1]%yIp;êv'K.[/size], it is clear that the classic definition accrues to it. In their respective commentaries on Isaiah,

J.A. Alexander says of it, “occult arts” (Vol 2, p. 202)
H.C. Leupold, “occult arts” (Vol 2, p. 154)
Matthew Poole, “magical practices”, “diabolical artifices” (Vol 2, p. 433)
E.J. Young, “magical practices”, “enchantments” “spells” (Vol 3, p. 238)
Keil & Delitzsch, “witchcrafts”, “magical arts”, “the black art” (Vol 7, pp. 240, 242, 243)
John Calvin, “divinations” (OT commentaries, Vol 8, p. 458)

Word Study Dictionary of the Old Testament, (Strong’s #3785) “occult magic”; also translated “witchcrafts” in 2 Kings 9:22, Micah 5:12, Nahum 3:4.

Matthew Henry, “Witchcraft is a sin in its own nature exceedingly heinous; it is giving that honour to the devil which is due to God only, making God’s enemy our guide and the father of lies our oracle. In Babylon it was a national sin . . . Such a bewitching sin this was that when it was once admitted it spread like wildfire, and they never knew the end of it; the deceived and the deceivers both increased strangely. (On Isaiah 47:7-15, IV)

Old Testament Word Studies, by William Wilson, “keshep – sorcery – ‘to practice magic arts, sorcery, charms, with an intent to do mischief to men or beasts; to delude or pervert the mind . . . magical rites’ ” (p. 405)”

With regard to the related word translated “enchantments” in Isaiah 47:7 – from, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, by Harris, Archer, and Waltke: 

“heber – bind, cast a spell – ‘The usual translation is “enchantments” referring to the means the charmers employed to influence people or the results of their charming efforts (Deut 18:11). All aspects were divinely forbidden to covenant people.’ ” (pp. 259, 260)​
What was true of ancient Babylon – a prototype – is also true of her final manifestation: a world system based in a nation with by far the mightiest military power the world has ever seen, as well as being the most culturally and technologically advanced of the nations, able to attain a political, economic, and cultural hegemony over most of the world.

Please understand that, despite my strong conjectural assertions, I am still in the conjectural stage and *not* saying America *is definitely* the Babylon of Scripture. But there are very strong correspondences between the two. Let me wrap up the sorcery connection before I go on.

It seems indisputable to me that the saying in Rev 18:23, “. . . for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived”, does find exclusive fulfillment in the United States, with its exportation of the “psychedelic” drug culture throughout the world. No other nation fits this bill.

The irreversible damage done to the nations is clear to those with eyes to see. The United Kingdom, closely connected in the sixties with American culture, and thoroughly permeated with the counter-culture music, thought, and drug use, is presently in such rapid spiritual decline, due in part to the postmodern juggernaut energized by the evolving thought-forms and ethics of that era, that it is constantly seeking to ratify legislation outlawing the Christian faith. It is on its way to becoming a truly wicked kingdom.

The consciousness of sorcery is inimical to the claims of Christ; hostile to God’s laws; intolerant to the Christian witness to these things. All over the world the church has been weakened, and in the spiritual and moral vacuum Islam has leapt in with a vengeance, flexing its satanic muscles. The only place it cannot spiritually overwhelm is the living precincts of the faithful and witnessing church. 

Into this same vacuum has leapt the homosexual vanguard, flexing its moral relativity and ensuing rights. In the public arena the faithful and witnessing church is shrunken to insignificance in the postmodern lens of society’s vision. We are a hindrance to the development and welfare of a free, just, and modern society unencumbered by “primitive fundamentalist guilt-based and psychologically unhealthy religious views”. The explosive opening of sorcery and its Pandora’s onslaught from the Pit into the common consciousness of humankind has paved the way for a new age, an age where Christ and His people are in the way, are blocking the road of “progress”.

The polyanna eschatologists may pipe up and say that in a few thousand more years this too shall pass and things will get better, but that’s a pipe dream. It was not for nothing the Lord said,

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matt 7:13, 14)​
This concludes the first section of Part 1, The Culture of the American Empire, section A. Sorceries. I would next like to look at other aspects of the culture of empire. It may be a while before I post it.

If these – and upcoming – conjectures turn out to be valid, the implications are enormous, at least for those of us who live in America (I’m not home now, but am planning to return)._


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## Turtle

I find it interesting that Babylon is repeatedly referred to as a city. That great city, that mighty city, but the other governmental organizations are referred to as kingdoms or nations. Not sure what to make of it.


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## Wayne

Bryan:

One possible lead might be to read the book by Jacques Ellul on _The Meaning of the City_.


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## Turtle

*We know Berlin is not Babylon*

Some of us are old enough to remember the city of Berlin and the unique arrangements made to have it divided in four sectors, UK, US, France, and Soviets. Berlin wouldn’t qualify as Babylon but the three sectors that made up Western Berlin raise an interesting thought. 

The great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (16:19). The great city reigned over the kings of the earth (17:18) 

If one could devise a plan to peacefully unify a single city as the seat of the three major world religions, each with a sector, coexisting in peace according to worldly terms, I could not imagine a more powerful city over the whole earth. However in order to establish such a unified city one would require alliances with men who have no scruples (an understatement), men of corruption, deceit, and doctrinal apostasies that would be unimaginable for believers. Perhaps such a city would be like a habitation of devils and a cage with every hateful and unclean bird. The metaphor of fornication would fit. The stench would go very high. For the common resident upon whom such a city was foisted, they would lament that their city had fallen. For the believer, it would probably be more grievous than any city before it. 

Though it would be grievous for many, others would prosper greatly. Merchants across the globe would have an explosion of trade on account of the new markets established with new "friends" in countries and regions they had never contracted with before. The people at the top of that city would ride a wave of revenue and think themselves to be on top of the world. No matter how desolate that city was in the past, and no matter how long they may have been called a widow by every other nation, by their own cunning they could call themselves a Queen, no longer a widow. 

That would appear to be quite a city. Imagine if the founder of that city, knowing the curse, even still blessed himself in his heart, saying, “I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart to add drunkenness to thirst.” And if the other nations raise the glass to say a toast to him..

A city like that would cast a shadow to Berlin and beyond.


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## Rich Koster

FDR initiated the UN. That is another contribution to ungodly world government.


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## Turtle

Rich Koster said:


> FDR initiated the UN. That is another contribution to ungodly world government.


 
Certainly WWI and WWII provided an impetus to push the pendulum the other way, so to speak, in order to establish world peace and new trade arrangements via the League of Nations and the UN. 

It could be argued that an alliance of the world religions is necessary to really get where the UN founders hoped to go. It sounds counter intuitive, but terrorism may well be a major impetus to accomplish such an alliance. That's another thread.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Bryan (Turtle),

Are you reading any of the amil commentators? If so, which among them are your favorites? Are your thoughts just your own speculations apart from them?

I am trying to stay close to the Biblical data as understood by the just-mentioned commentators, as I have rejected the other schools’ interpretations of Scripture, and now have little interest in them.

It may be asked, why am I going out on a limb like this? Why not just stick to the standard views and not go beyond them? To answer that I’d like to quote something from Stuart Olyott’s great little commentary on Daniel, _Dare To Stand Alone_. The angel has been telling Daniel the visions of chapter 8:

“ ‘You have heard the truth, Daniel,’ says the angel (26). ‘Now preserve the vision, because the future will need a record of what you have seen.’

“And it did. In those darkest of days, when the people of God were being hounded and killed in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, they needed and they had the comfort of this chapter of Daniel. Throughout that period they were consoled by knowing that this wicked man could not have stepped on to the page of history without divine permission and that everything he did, however awful, was nothing other than what God had predicted centuries earlier. They knew that in God’s time, and in fulfilment of verse 25, he would at last be removed. To know all this was an indescribable comfort to them in horrific times.” (p. 110)​
We shall need the comfort of the knowledge that our time of persecution has been told us beforehand. And that if indeed great calamity is to befall our nation it too has been given us to know before it came to pass. We shall suffer with our countrymen, but _spiritually_, having been sealed unto God (Rev 7:3), we are as in Goshen, untouched by the plagues, though physically we are vulnerable. We will have the inner security and abundance of love to care for those smitten by plagues, as happened in ancient Rome, and by such caring win many to Christ.

I have perused the web and seen some real nut-cases foretelling doom and destruction for America; or, maybe they’re not genuine nut-cases, but just charismatic would-be prophets spinning visions the Lord did not give them. In any event, I have been surprised to see the plethora of doomsayers around. 

My own approach – which I will further demonstrate shortly – is not to go beyond Scripture, yet to look very closely at it, and hold present developments in the world up to its light, if perchance there is a match.

There may be some who think me unpatriotic for my thoughts – after all, how dare I envision such catastrophe for our homeland? Anyone remember Francis Schaeffer’s words, “It must be taught that patriotic loyalty must _*not*_ be identified with Christianity. . . The establishment may easily become the church’s enemy.” (_The Church at the End of the Twentieth Century_, p. 79). 

It is very important that we be, as was said of the children of Issachar who joined themselves to David in the wilderness, “men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do” (1 Chron 12:32). When you see the first drop of innocent Christian blood shed by officers of the U.S. government hit the ground, know that a line has been crossed, and a new epoch will have begun.

What ought Israel to do? What I teach is that we be alert to these things, to cultivate a close walk with our God in Christ Jesus, whose presence shall be our strength in whatever comes our way, to be debt-free if possible, to preach and teach the whole counsel of God, to bear gracious witness of the Gospel of Christ to the lost of the world, and to shun the allure of Babylon’s luxurious embrace.


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## Porter

I believe, with humble and wholesome conviction, that Babylon is Jerusalem. It had already been called "Sodom and Egypt", "the great city" (Rev. 11:8), then finally "Babylon" (Rev. 16:19, 17:18, and 18:10). This fits well with the covenantal curse language of the book (application specifically targeted toward the apostate old covenant people), as well as the timing being certainly directed to an audience contemporaneous to John the Apostle (Rev. 1:1-3).


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Cameron, welcome to PB!

While the purpose of this thread is _*not*_ to contend against other millennial views, but to explore the possibilities of _*amil*_ interpretation as regards the identity of Babylon and her demise, I will briefly answer your remarks, though do not want here to enter into debate about it. Thanks for understanding.

Indeed we believe that Jerusalem, by persecuting the people of God (and executing their Messiah, Rome cooperating), has _joined_ those symbolic entities – Sodom, Egypt, and the great city, Babylon – but is not exclusively them itself. As Beale remarks,

“The great city” is “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.” That is, the ungodly world is likened not only to infamous Babylon but also to other well-known wicked nations of the OT. They were “spiritually” like Babylon, since they were also places where the saints lived as aliens under persecution. (Op Cit, p. 593)​
When John wrote (in Rev 11:8) that Jerusalem is “spiritually” called not only Sodom and Egypt, but “the great city”, this shows that earthly Jerusalem had become as those other wicked nations of the world and was of their spirit, those names symbolic appellations of evil places ripe for judgment.

Commenting on the identification of Babylon in Rev 17:18, Beale says,

“The woman” is interpreted to be “the great city, which has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.” She includes the entire evil economic system of the world throughout history. She receives power from the devil himself. Her economic-religious influence formerly even extended over the political realm (“the kings of the earth”). But their loyalty will shift toward the beast and they will become antagonistic toward her in the end time. That the “woman” has sovereignty over the world demonstrates that she must be identified more broadly than merely with unbelieving Jerusalem or the apostate church. Likewise, 18:23 reveals her universal nature by describing her as one who has “deceived the nations”. . . 

. . . It is also fatal to the preterist view that the influence of Jerusalem was at its lowest ebb in the two centuries preceding A.D. 70, whereas Babylon’s demise in Revelation 17-18 is an immediate fall from great power and prosperity. (Ibid, pp. 888, 889)​
In Rev 17 Babylon reigns over the kings of the earth, and all its peoples, and then is destroyed in one hour by the beast and his ally kings; in Rev 18 she deceives all nations by her sorceries, which matter I seek to elucidate here.

If you wish to pursue the preterist postmil view please feel free to start a new thread on that topic, though there are already some extant. Thanks.


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## Porter

Thanks for the welcome, Blade!


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## Jerusalem Blade

Some thoughts before I proceed. 

It is in the recent news that California will hold a referendum in November over the issue of legalizing marijuana; if it passes in favor of the weed we shall likely see other states follow suit – “As California goes, so goes the nation”. Grass is not what it was in the old days, it is much more powerful, genetically developed to contain more THC, its “active ingredient”. It is a very strong sorcerous potion. Its legalization would make it an issue in the churches, for not all are aware of the prohibitions that apply to it in Scripture. 

It has been fairly easy to make a case such as in the opening post on the use and meaning of “sorceries” in the Scripture, and apply it to contemporary phenomena, there being clear and precise correspondences between the Bible and current history in this instance.

But when dealing with other aspects of “the American Empire”, the “cultural, the economic, and the military / political” it is far more difficult for me, as the disciplines involved in making these assessments are not Biblical but secular. So I will not develop these to the extent I have in the first section, instead giving – as I said initially – only a brief outline of my thoughts.

I have undergone a radical change in my thinking concerning my homeland, America. It’s similar to something that Frank said in the Black Confederacy thread about aspects of our history, “I'm taking a long, hard look at what I've been taught . . . I just do not trust that the stuff I learned in school was honest.” For me it goes beyond my schooling to everything I get from my culture – through various educational and media sources – about what America is and does.

I’ve surely never been anti-American. Joined the Boy Scouts as a youth, volunteered for the USMC at 17 (1959), later was part of the 60’s counter-culture, arrested by Christ when I was 26 and on a path to destruction, and brought into His care and direction. While in the counter-culture I never was part of any radical group, just a poet and seeker.

As a Christian I eventually left the Republican Party because of its corruption and misuse of power, but never went left. Rather I identified myself as “conservative” and voted for conservatives. I have no problem with authority; valued the police (NYPD) while I drove a taxi during my days as a writer and single parent. Sort of a typical Christian, slowly moving from generic evangelicalism (“the thinnest of soups”) to the Reformed faith. 

Coming out of the counter-culture, and evangelizing those still in it (and living in Woodstock for 19 years), I realized that the drugs of our era constituted Biblical sorcery, and that made me wonder about what connection Babylon had with my country, the source of the counter-culture drug scene that was being spread throughout the world.

But it wasn’t until this past year (at ages 67/68) when I preached through Revelation, really digging into it, using the amil commentaries I’ve mentioned in the earlier Babylon thread, that I began in earnest seeking to understand the dynamics of Babylon and the hatred it engenders in the beast and the 10 kings which lead them to destroy it. As I wrote in that previous thread, I wondered what that could look like – and what was Babylon, and how could the kings destroy her in one hour by fire, and why did they come to hate this powerful figure that dominated the entire earth? I really pondered this, and asked the Lord about it, being thoroughly ignorant, and seeking His wisdom.

While in a second-hand bookstore I saw a raggedy (well-worn) book, _Why Do People Hate America?_, and picked it up for a pittance, as it seemed to speak to the burning questions I had. I read it with an open mind, even though the authors, Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies (S&D), UK citizens, were postmodernists, and Sardar a cultural (nominal) Muslim. Some of their historical / intellectual / philosophical views of Europe (as the ground of American thought) I took with a grain of salt, and yet their analyses of American culture, economics, militarism, internal history, and politics were astonishingly astute and eye-opening to me. I was prepared to listen to such a critique because of my suspicion that there may be more to America than how I had perceived her.

And this – sort of in a nutshell – is what I picked up from this book, and its sequel, _American Dream, Global Nightmare_ (There is third book in the series, but I haven’t started it yet: _Will America Change?_):

We have been subjected to a powerful mythologizing influence concerning our nation, to a very great extent through the ubiquitous film industry (TV and movies), which promotes the idea that, in the midst of enemies, we must heroically prevail through force of arms and intelligence and establish our pure and ideal democratic form of government; this prototype began with the American Indian “savages” who opposed our “divine right” to establish God’s “new Israel” here in the promised land we fled to from the oppressions of Europe. As the nation grew we developed this idea and adapted it to our place among the nations, again, we the pure, innocent, and ideal people with a superior form of governance and a divine mandate, still surrounded by hostile and primitive peoples, who we must either severely subdue, and / or paternally help attain to our understanding of being civilized. Our presidents, and the government along with industry, developed the idea of the American Empire, and we the purveyors of enlightenment and true democracy around the world. Our vision of democracy included the right of free trade among all the nations, but the benefits were mostly one-way, and we enriched ourselves at the expense of the poorer nations, leveraging great power over them, if not militarily, then through the IMF, World Bank, and World Trade Organization, all of which have been pretty much in our pocket, and could put the economic screws to any who resist our “economically developing” their countries.

Are the views of S&D thoroughly accurate and reliable? I can’t defend them as I am able to defend my Biblical positions, but I am convinced that in the main they are right on target.

What this has been a lesson in is seeing ourselves through the eyes of others; as Robert Burns put it, “O would some power the giftie gie us / To see ourselves as others see us!” It is so strange that I, a thinking man with insight into things, and a strong critical faculty, had bought into the vision of America that I had picked up from my youth, from the Westerns on TV, all reinforcing the American myth, to the detective stories, to Rambo, _Alias_, Van Dam – all touting American ingenuity, valor, technological and physical prowess, and moral rectitude. But the way our military and government, with its black and covert ops subvert countries we want to control, and the way we have supported dictatorial regimes when it was to our economic or political advantage, leaves the world wondering at the sheer hypocrisy of our stated ideals in light of our violent and self serving actions.

The way we supported the State of Israel and enabled it to oppress the Palestinians, many of whom are brother Christians, has gained us many enemies. Our leaders have bought into the Dispensationalist schema that the State of Israel is the prophetic fulfilment of Scripture and we do God’s will to arm, finance, and enable them to attain regional hegemony, aided by the unspoken but very real threat of nuclear attack (some background *here*). (I am not against the Jews, or the State of Israel – I _am_ a Jew – but I can hardly divinize a state and support actions that are against God’s law. Just solutions can be found to alleviate the much of the conflicts, though there are passions in the region which may not be amenable to reason; and this may be in the Lord’s decree as well.)

With the collapse of the Soviet Union we are now the world’s sole superpower (though China is growing), with military bases, missile sites, and forces all over the world. We think of ourselves as the righteous policeman – the myth of “the reluctant hero” S&D talk of in _American Dream..._ – keeping the world safe for democracy and free trade, and we actually are ignorant (most of us, anyway) of the horrors our government and our big corporations (tied to government) have perpetrated around the world, impoverishing peoples, intimidating them, and yet alluring them with the promise of economic prosperity and security if they cooperate with us. Far more oil has been spilled in Nigeria by our corporations than the Exxon Valdez and the current Gulf of Mexico spills, yet barely nothing has been done there, and multitudes have been ruined by the devastation of the land.

The disconnect between what we do in the world and how as a result we are perceived by all the nations – 3rd world, East and West Europeans, Muslims, Canadians, Asians, Africans, Latin Americans – and what we think of ourselves, as well as our ignorance of the other nations, frightens the world, makes them think of us as a rogue state, too big to stand up to, and thoroughly deluded as to what kind of nation we actually are.

“ . . . statistics that we come across routinely in the UNDP’s Human Development Reports: that Americans consume over half of all the goods and services of the world; that its people spend over $10 billion annually on pet food alone – $4 billion more than the estimated total needed to provide basic health and nutrition for everyone in the world; that their expenditure on cosmetics – $8 billion – is $2 billion more than the annual total needed to provide basic education worldwide. . . The three richest Americans have assets that exceed the combined gross domestic product of the 48 least developed countries. Having cornered most of the world’s resources, America now has its eyes firmly set on the last remaining resource of developing countries: the flora, fauna, biodiversity and the very DNA of the indigenous people of the world”. (_Why Do People Hate…_, p. 82)​
And the authors go on to give examples of American corporations – with government help – garnering patents on indigenous peoples’ unique plants and foodstuffs so that they lose control of their own produce if they should ever want to market it.

I am no longer an innocent American. My ignorance, my buying into the myths of America, my believing that we are a good, and noble nation, worthy to be emulated by the world, has been taken from me. I suppose that my conscious first loyalty to the Kingdom of Christ – the place of my primary citizenship – has allowed me to detach and gain perspective on my nation in the world.

I will continue to gather information, facts and figures, so as to make a clearer and more succinct brief on these things. For over 4 decades I’ve been studying the Bible and related writings, so I’m familiar with much of that material. But an assessment of the economic, political, military, and cultural history of the United States is a large undertaking!

If there is substance to my supposition that the American Empire is the Biblical Babylon – or rather to become fully transformed into such in the years soon to come – the implications for us are huge.

And certain markers as telltale signs would confirm this, such as the widespread legalization of drugs (although we have already done the damage in that area), the increasing criminalization of Christian free speech, and the outright official persecuting and outlawing of the Christian faith.

Of course the postmils are inoculated against envisioning such things – except it be as a catastrophic prelude to their “Jewish dreams” of conquering the world – and this itself is a powerful debilitating factor in our attaining spiritual preparedness for severe suffering. But that’s another thread.


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## Rich Koster

Interesting insight. There's more going on than "Speak softly and carry a big stick".


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## Philip

Steve, I totally agree that the way America has gone is utterly wrong and Godless. We really ought to be sticking up for Christians around the world, whether it be to end the persecution in Israel or to protect the Iraqi and Afghan Christians who have been decimated by our interventions.

However, I'm going to disagree by saying that Babylon is no more America than it was Rome in the 1st Century.

In Revelation and indeed throughout the Scriptures, Babylon is contrasted with Zion, the City of God. Where Zion is the body of all those whom God has called, Babylon is the body of all those who are opposed to God. When we talk about Babylon and Zion, we are talking about the two cities of Biblical history: the City of God and the City of Darkness (I would have said Augustine's two cities, except that Augustine's "City of Man" may have alliance with the City of God at times).

Now, is America a modern-day manifestation of Babylon? Maybe, maybe not---but it isn't the only one. What I will say is this: wherever the people of God praise His name, even in the midst of Babylon, there is Zion.


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## Rich Koster

"wherever the people of God praise His name, even in the midst of Babylon, there is Zion."


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## Brandon1

Mr. Rafalsky

I'm not sure I see your connection between sorcery and drug use. You cited words that had similar lexemes and then concluded that all of the times that word is used it imports that meaning of drug use. That is called illegitimate totality transfer (or transferring the total range of meaning of a word into every use of the word).

You have to prove that it means this in the context of this text and John's corpus. I for one, am not convinced that the connection you make is sound. The way to prove me wrong though is to consult lexicons and see if they agree with you, and to argue contextually that John is referencing drug use. I'm open to the evidence, but have skepticism. Consult BDAG and even perhaps Louw and Nida to see what they say. If they agree, it certainly adds strength to your case!


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## timmopussycat

No matter how bad things appear to look at a given moment or how many apparent correspondences appear between visible reality and the biblical text, one thing must be kept in mind. God has turned around entire cultures from amazing levels of degradation (18th century England to give but one example) and he is stillable to do so.


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## Peairtach

We are part of the Visible Church and the modern Visible Church in large measure is a Babylon - Romanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, rampant Pentecostalism, Liberalism, neo-Evangelicalism with Liberal stances. We should come out of denominations in which we will be contaminaed by error as the Book of Revelation tells us to.

Later on she (the Church) gets cleansed and purified and becomes the New Jerusalem.

The Book of Revelation focusses on the Church from the Destruction of Jerusalem to the return of Christ. 

Pressure is put on the Church to become a Babylon by the First Beast (Pagan and Statist persecution) and the Second Beast (the Antichrist Papacy and other antichrists, e.g. Liberal Christianity).

In Revelation the Church is sometimes described from one perspective as a city and from another as a woman, sometimes a bad woman and a bad city i.e. Babylon.

The Church is the central institution in any society in which she has been established, and in history. She is the apple of God's eye. But she often behaves like a prostitute vis a vis Christ.

And often we forget that she is the most important institution that there is.


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## Reformed Baptist

Turtle said:


> I find it interesting that Babylon is repeatedly referred to as a city. That great city, that mighty city, but the other governmental organizations are referred to as kingdoms or nations. Not sure what to make of it.


 
Vatican City perhaps.


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## Peairtach

Reformed Baptist said:


> Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that Babylon is repeatedly referred to as a city. That great city, that mighty city, but the other governmental organizations are referred to as kingdoms or nations. Not sure what to make of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vatican City perhaps.
Click to expand...


Check out Patrick Fairbairn's examination of "Babylon" in his "sane" book, "The Interpretation of Scripture". He's realistic enough to see that the message about the Church becoming Babylon extends beyond the Church of Rome, but includes that major, even central (?) apostasy.

All his books are "sane", by the way.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Philip (P. F. Pugh), you said,



> “I'm going to disagree by saying that Babylon is no more America than it was Rome in the 1st Century.”



I suppose it depends on how we are talking, for a little later in your post you say, 



> “Now, is America a modern-day manifestation of Babylon? Maybe, maybe not---but it isn't the only one.”



And when you say,



> “Babylon is the body of all those who are opposed to God . . . the City of Darkness”



I wouldn’t disagree with that. I went to some lengths seeking to define precisely what the identity of Babylon was / is in *a previous Babylon thread*, quoting a number of amil commentators to show where there is a consensus in this identification. G.K. Beale is representative when he says,

Babylon was the ungodly world power under which Israel had to live in captivity. While Israelite saints did not go along with Babylon’s religious practices, they were nevertheless tempted to compromise. When they remained loyal to their God, they underwent trial by their oppressors (see Daniel 1-6). The ungodly social, political, and economic system dominated by the Roman Empire placed believers in the same position as Israel was in under Babylon . . . Therefore, here in the Apocalypse Rome _and all wicked world systems_ take on the symbolic name ‘Babylon the Great’. [emphasis added –SMR] G.K. Beale, (_The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text_, p. 755)​
Simon Kistemaker, in his commentary on Peter and Jude (the New Testament Commentary series), remarking on 1 Pet 5:13, “the church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you...”, says,

“Babylon” is a cryptic name for Rome. In times of persecution, writers exercised unusual care not to endanger Christians to whom they wrote letters. For instance, when John was banished to Patmos during the persecution instituted by the emperor Domitian, he called Rome “Babylon” (Rev. 14:8; 16:9; 17:5; 18:2, 10, 21). (Pp. 208, 209)​
That Kistemaker does not _restrict_ the name Babylon to Rome is clear from his commentary on Revelation in chapter 17,

The woman called Babylon, sitting on many waters, which the angel interprets as the peoples, crowds, nations, and languages (v. 15), symbolizes the population of the entire world. The name _Babylon the Great_ is a figurative description of all the godless inhabitants in the world. In the second half of the first century, the city of Rome was a cesspool of iniquity and thus became a symbol of worldly pleasure, enticement, and lust. But as I have pointed out above, to focus attention only on Rome of apostolic times is too restrictive. The name _Babylon_ applies to the lasting conflict between Satan’s henchmen and the people of God . . .

Does John have in mind the destruction of Rome whereby subordinate vassals rise up against her? Hardly, for the imperial city never entirely fulfilled the words in this verse. The splendor of Rome diminished in the course of due time, and the empire came to an end in 476, but the city itself remained intact. On a broader scale, _the text applies to nations pursuing economic and political goals to the detriment of others. When wealth and riches accumulate, a sudden downturn causes these nations to collapse_ . . . 

These kings together with the beast are determined to destroy the woman _who has dominated them_.” [emphases added –SMR], Simon J Kistemaker, _New Testament Commentary: Revelation_, Pp. 466, 478.​
Getting back to your remark, Philip, “Babylon is no more America than it was Rome in the 1st Century”; I would say that Rome indeed was a _manifestation_ of the Babylonian spirit – and called on that account, Babylon, by the Biblical writers – even as America may possibly be a contemporary manifestation of Babylon. I think you agree with this in your saying, “is America a modern-day manifestation of Babylon? Maybe, maybe not---but it isn't the only one”.

Now I think this is the issue at hand: If Rome could be called Babylon because of its similarity to Chaldean Babylon, being itself a great military, economic, and cultural world power, why may not America likewise be called by this symbolic name – _if_ the shoe does fit! – in other words, if she fulfills the Biblical criteria?

In the 1st century the symbolic name was applied to a nation, as the Babylonian-type empire was centered in a nation. Thus it _could_ be applied to a nation in the end time, even though Babylon is _also_ seen as the culture of the world in opposition to the God of Heaven and earth. The name can be used in both senses. I think this was also established in the previous thread referred to above.

-----------

Brandon (Brandon1),

You said,



> “I'm not sure I see your connection between sorcery and drug use . . . You have to prove that it means this in the context of this text and John's corpus.”



Before offering some proofs per your request, let me ask, have you taken even a cursory look at the Greek usage? In both Biblical (as well classical) and modern Greek, the semantic range of these words with “similar lexemes” is pretty clear. There are three primary uses of the basic word, _pharmakon_, drug: 1) medicinal / curative, 2) poison, and 3) magic potion. That’s the extent of the semantic range. In the Biblical and the modern Greek (I’m currently living in a Greek-speaking country) the meaning depends mostly on the context the words are used in. More on that in a moment.

I trust you’ll bear with me if I refer to the BDAG (or BAGD) 2nd Edition, as I just don’t have the bucks (or a seminary library) to go for the newer 3rd edition.

With regard to _*pharmakeia*_ – BAGD says, that in Rev 18:23 the meaning is “sorcery, magic”, and in Rev 9:21, “magic arts”. It also gives usages in many other classical and LXX readings, but for brevity I’ll limit it to the NT usage, and will in the following citations also.

Concerning _*pharmakon*_ – drug – in classical use (it’s not used in the NT) there are 3 meanings: 1) “poison”, 2) “magic potion, charm”, and 3) “medicine, remedy”. These are all on page 854a of the BAGD 2nd Edition.

-----------

In the Liddell and Scott New Edition (Oxford 1940) of their, _A Greek-English Lexicon_:

_*Pharmakeia*_ – “the use of any kind of drugs, potions, or spells”, “use enchantments, practice sorcery”.

_*Pharmakon*_ – “enchanted potion, philter: hence, charm, spell”

_*Pharmakos*_ – “poisoner, sorcerer, magician”. These entries were all found on page 1917 of Liddell and Scott. 

-----------

And this is from Thayer’s _Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament_, 4th Edition:

_*Pharmakeia*_, “the use or administering of drugs . . . poisoning . . . sorcery, magical arts”.

_*Pharmakeus*_, “one who prepares _or_ uses magical remedies”

_*Pharmakos*_, “pertaining to magical arts”.

-----------

I might have another lexicon or two around the house (a little dated though they may be), but I think this should suffice to show that the semantic range is designated as I have said.

John was not talking of poisoners (murderers!) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 as he had already listed “murderers” separately; neither was he talking of murders in Rev 9:21, as there also he had listed “murders” separately. He was talking of sorcerers and sorceries in the classic sense, that having to do with magic potions, sorcerous drugs. In Rev 18:23, John was not talking about deceiving the nations through poisoning them or by giving them medicines, but by altering their consciousness through the promoting and administering of hallucinogenic drugs, those pharmaceuticals manufactured (or in the case of some, processed) to the end of making the psychedelic consciousness both desirable and available world-wide. Anyone remember the Beatles’ film, _Yellow Submarine_? That was about this very thing, changing the mental / psychic state of the whole world through enchanted music, energized by what was purported by some as the “sacrament” LSD. It was a counterfeit, though, to bring souls into communion with the devil.

As noted in the OP, Chaldean Babylon of Isaiah 47 used sorceries in the same sense as the Babylon of Revelation is said to use them, and the latter designation of Babylon is thus most appropriate.

At any rate, Brandon, I hope this makes my case – at least about the Greek usage – a little more substantial in your eyes.

----------

Richard,

Are not those who comprise the true church – those born-of-the-Spirit of Christ worldwide – already members of the New Jerusalem? I am not of the Babylonish church, even if I were in one which was greatly mixed. In fact, back in the early 90’s I was in a Reformed church (3FU) that was slowly going apostate after the regular pastor took a call in another state and an interim came in with a liberal agenda. I fought long and hard against the incoming tide, and finally when this pastor attended and interrupted my adult Sunday School class – I had just begun teaching the First Head of Doctrine of the Canons of Dort, On Divine Predestination – raising his voice with indignation and saying, “We don’t believe this old stuff any more! This is a new age, and we are more enlightened than to teach these things!”, I say, when this happened I knew it was over, for although there might have been some hope in the consistory, in the classis were some die-hard liberals who would have sided with him, despite the church constitution requiring adherence to the Confession.

I wasn’t part of Babylon, though I was in what was slowly becoming her while lifting up the standard of sound doctrine, hoping to turn the ill tide, till the Lord showed me it was time leave. Now there’s a full-time woman pastor in that church.

As I indicated in posts here and here the true church is distinct from Babylon, though I will agree she is being seduced to some degree, and it is a very dangerous time for her. I have some friends dear to me in grave danger. And what you say about leaving denominations / churches that are apostatizing – leaving Babylon – is most apt.

I’ve gained a new appreciation of and respect for your views, Richard, from watching you interact with some “Theonomists” / Christian Reconstructionists.

-----------

Tim, would you were right at _this_ time about the Lord “turning around” _our_ degraded cultures! It would be wonderful to have more time. Though it appears to me the time of the devil’s “little season” (Rev 20:3) is near to hand. Yet, one should certainly not be dogmatic about such things, for, as you say, it has looked bad in the past, and there was change for the better.


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## Philip

> In the 1st century the symbolic name was applied to a nation, as the Babylonian-type empire was centered in a nation.



And justly so. However, I am quite sure that Christians outside the Roman Empire in the Sassanid Persian Empire, whose persecution of the Church made Rome look feeble and half-hearted, made the same identification of Persia with Babylon.

I hesitate to use the term "Babylon" with regard to geopolitical superpowers. Instead, just as Zion is wherever Christ is exalted and His name praised, Babylon is wherever that name is persecuted, blasphemed, and derided. Imperialism alone does not Babylon make.


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## ReformedChristian

When it comes to Babylon and other endtime views I hold to the Historicist view of Babylon being Rome though I must admit America has become like the Roman Empire of old times.


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## Elizabeth

This whole thread has been very intriguing to my husband and myself. I wanted to thank you, Mr Rafalsky, for the time and effort you've taken here and for sharing your thoughts with us.


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## Peairtach

> As I indicated in posts here and here the true church is distinct from Babylon, though I will agree she is being seduced to some degree, and it is a very dangerous time for her. I have some friends dear to me in grave danger. And what you say about leaving denominations / churches that are apostatizing – leaving Babylon – is most apt.
> 
> I’ve gained a new appreciation of and respect for your views, Richard, from watching you interact with some “Theonomists” / Christian Reconstructionists.



Well the Old Testament Church was often described as a prostitute when she turned from the Lord. See the many references in the OT

In the New Testament period the Church has often become like a prostitute vis-a-vis Christ. Part of the message of Revelation is that the Prostitute, Babylon, who was also the Woman that went into the Desert (Wilderness), will be cleansed of every "wrinkle and spot" (Ephesians 5:22-33) and become the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ.



> Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
> 
> Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



John leaves the Woman - the Church, the Bride of Christ - in the Wilderness.



> Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.



The next time John goes into the Wilderness, something has happened to the Woman. No doubt because of presuure brought to bear by the First Beast (Statist, Pagan, Worldly Persecution) and by the Second Beast (Ecclesiatical Antichrist and antichrists with their evil compromises with the world that lies in the Wicked One and with the unsanctified and often apostate State).

Notice, also, that _both _ eschatalogical personalities are described as 

(a) Women.

(b) Cities.

The Church is the Bride of Christ _and_ the City of God. 

Babylon is the Bride of Christ gone bad and - which is the same thing from a different angle - the City of God gone bad.


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## Brandon1

Mr. Rafalsky

I'm not saying that your sources would not see a connection to the lexemes. I'm not even saying that there is the potential that sorcery involved use of potions.

My criticism is that you are unloading all the potential meaning of the word into that particular passage. From what you've said (I don't have BDAG around right now) it seems to militate against your case. If BDAG sees the meaning in this instances as being sorcery, then it rules out the other 4 possible meanings. Let me explain why.

For example, I make the statement, "That guy is sick." What do I mean? I could mean that he is actually ill. I could mean that I think he is gross. It could mean that I actually think he is cool. I could even be referring to a movie quote that the person I'm talking to would understand, which would totally change the meaning as well (though this is not so in the case we're looking at). Your response would be akin to saying, that statement means that the man is ill, and gross, but also means that the person making the statement thinks he is cool.

This is not how language works of course. Either it is sorcery or use of magical potions, it is not the two conflated. You may think the lexeme should be broader than that, but then you are arguing against all of the lexicons you've cited (who have distinguished the ranges of meaning). Obviously I think the point you're trying to prove is correct, but I think the methodology you're using to get there is flawed.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Well, Richard, I have to limit my “new appreciation of and respect for your views” to your refutations of “Theonomy”, but certainly not to your exposition of the two women, the Harlot and the Bride!

Back in ancient times during Israel’s wanderings in the desert, both Israel and the wicked nations moved in wilderness area, but they were separate and distinct, notwithstanding Israel’s fickleness and unfaithfulness.

To the holy woman of Rev 12 (who is later shown to us as the Bride), the “wilderness” is a place of nourishment and protection (verses 14-16) from the devouring dragon, who would also seek to drown her with venomous stuff from his mouth (false teachings). The spiritual wilderness is a place of protection from spiritual danger given to the woman for the 3½ “times” (aka 1,260 days, 42 months) of the entire period of tribulation during the church age. Being in this wilderness is being removed from “the world”, the area where Satan prowls (albeit restrained) uncontested by idolatrous humanity.

In Rev 17 it is not clear that the harlot woman is herself actually in the wilderness – she is just said to be sitting “upon many waters” (v. 1) – and it is John who is “carried away in the spirit into the wilderness” and _from_ there sees the whore on the beast (who is the tool and image of Satan). Beale remarks,

Possibly John is carried into the desert also because that is the place of spiritual security and detachment from the world’s dangers (see on 12:6, 13-17). Safety from the evils of the “great city” can be found in the desert, and only there can one get a good view of the Babylonian city, so that deception by her can be avoided. Only in the desert could John perceive the true spiritual colors of the whore and the beast, since there one lives in solidarity with the messianic community and evaluates all things from the perspective of that community. (Op. Cit., p. 852)​
After her judgment the whore becomes as a desert place, inhabited by demons. This is not the woman, the mother, of Rev 12, nor the bride she is later shown to be, for this woman and “the remnant of her seed . . . which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (12:17), are spiritually sealed (Rev 7:3:ff; cf. 9:4) and protected from spiritual harm. They _never_ become the whore per your scenario! They are the sealed (Cf. Eph 1:13, 14). Though it is true that the elect may be temporarily seduced or overcome, but they are regathered by the mighty Husband – through severe chastenting if need be – but they never _become_ the whore.

On top of that, “the great whore that sits upon many waters” – the waters being the nations and multitudes and peoples of the world (17:15) – “reigns over the kings of the earth” (17:18). Your purported “Bride of Christ gone bad”, an apostate church, has never reigned over the peoples and kings of the earth.

Richard, please, I don’t want to get into a ping pong match between the amil and pmil views. I respond just to answer your sayings which cloud the picture I draw.

------------


Brandon,

You said,



> “This is not how language works . . . Either it is sorcery or use of magical potions, it is not the two conflated.”



Having excluded normal medicines and poisons, we are left with magic potions, which substances and use thereof _constitute_ sorcery. Sorcery is a synonym for such drugs and their use. To use them synonymously is not to conflate them at all, for they are one and the same. I’m sorry if I have not made this clear.

-------

I'll have to hold responding any further till later Sunday, as I must give myself to sermon prep.


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## Peairtach

> Richard, please, I don’t want to get into a ping pong match between the amil and pmil views. I respond just to answer your sayings which cloud the picture I draw.



Discussing who Babylon is isn't really to do with amil/postmil, because an amil could conceivably believe that Babylon was the apostate Church. I'm postmil, but there are postmils who believe that Babylon was first century Jerusalem, the City of Rome, and maybe what you believe Babylon is.

Who you believe Babylon is, is more related to whether you're a preterist, historicist, idealist or futurist, rather than whether you're amil, postmil or premil.


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## Brandon1

You say, "Sorcery is a synonym for such drugs and their use." I'm challenging this because I think it is an (unfounded) assertion.

The lexicons show the possible range of meaning and often give their interpretation. BDAG (as far as you've listed it), claims that the range of meaning in the passages in Revelation is magic or sorcery. Now it is up to you to determine historically what that means. If that meant sorcery involved drug use, then you'd have a case. But it is not a linguistic argument per se. Instead, the argument needs to be rooted in what sorcery consisted of in the 1st century. It is impossible for the similarities in the lexemes to tell us what sorcery consisted of.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Richard, actually you’re right – Herman Hoeksema is amil and in his commentary, _Behold, He Cometh!_, takes the position Babylon is the apostate church, or rather “the false church”, which in his view never repents but is destroyed at the end of the age.

How do you understand the distinctions between amil and idealist?

---------

Brandon, I don’t really understand what your objection is. I think I have abundantly and adequately shown that _pharmakon_, the root of all the “sorcery” words, refers only – _strictly_ – to _drugs_. The derivative words _pharmakeia_ and _pharmakeus / pharmakos_ – sorceries and sorcerers respectively likewise refer to activities or persons using drugs.

The lexical data says of these words that in classical, New Testament, and early Christian literature they referred to “drugs”, “potions”, and “remedies” involved in the occult arts. It’s almost a no-brainer that the root word from which we get our English “pharmaceuticals” and “pharmacies” pertains to drugs.

I noted earlier that some modern exegetes take “sorceries” to be used in a figurative sense connoting deception, and I have presented arguments against that view.

At this point I think you’ll just have to present some evidence to refute my findings besides sheer skepticism.

Do you have a reason apart from lexical considerations for taking exception to my view? Lexically – exegetically – your position is without basis. Mere skepticism is not a sufficient ground for refutation.

---------

As I noted earlier, there are multitudes of wackos prophesying doom and destruction, and obviously “Babylon” gets included by them because of its presence in Revelation. I try to take a reasoned and scholarly approach because, first, that’s the way I operate, and second, because I want thinking people to at least consider these things. I don’t see it as far-fetched to consider if there is a spiritual aspect to the military-industrial-cultural-political entity we know as the United States in its relation to the rest of the world. Plenty of secular analysts, cultural researchers and critics reveal profoundly disturbing things about this nation, but one thing they all note is that the “American Mythos” is such we its denizens are impervious to taking hard looks at ourselves or listening to our critics and the way they see us.

This is not as much about prophecy as it is honest appraisal. I have learned to study the arguments of my opponents, and of those who make strong critiques of things I unthinkingly take for granted.

We live in a world where things are not as they seem. The safest thing is to seek how God may see things – by the light of His word. And to gather what pertinent information we can that bears on the subject.


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## The Mexican Puritan

All this is to be expected, is it not? Is the church prepared? In my denomination we have folks who believe that God did NOT create the universe in six literal days. So if we have professing Christians who get Scripture twisted up, what can we expect of the world? The Gospel needs to be preached soundly--the day will come when Christians will be seen with contempt and scorn. Drugs and homosexuality are Satan's devices to destroy men. I sat outside work and saw young gays celebrating the overturning of Proposition 8. Didn't they understand the eternal consequences of this? What Scripture says is happening right in front of me.


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## Peairtach

> the day will come when Christians will be seen with contempt and scorn. Drugs and homosexuality are Satan's devices to destroy men. I sat outside work and saw young gays celebrating the overturning of Proposition 8. Didn't they understand the eternal consequences of this? What Scripture says is happening right in front of me.



Christians are already seen with contempt and scorn by many in America, Britain and elsewhere. So far I am not aware of physical persecution by the State, but that is already experienced by Christians in other countries, so should we be surprised if it happened in e.g. America or Britain?



> Drugs and homosexuality are Satan's devices to destroy men.



They are also _God's devices_ by which to judge men, leading eventually to better days, after leading to worse days.

_*For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven *against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. *Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity*, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. *For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions*. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, *God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done*. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:18-32, ESV) _


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## Brandon1

Mr. Rafalsky

It is not skepticism. It is the fact you are not using linguistics properly. Just because there are similarities in the possible range of meaning does not mean that sorcery really is another way of saying drug use. I don't have to argue for this, it is the way proper word studies are done.

I'm not trying to argue what the meaning of the word is, but you are saying something that is potentially correct (though I have reservations), but that you haven't offered an adequate argument for. You say you've proved the connection, but you haven't. All you've demonstrated is that this particular lexeme can mean sorcery and drugs. You have to develop a better connection than that for it to be a legitimate word study. 

And BDAG clearly prefers witchcraft or sorcery in the passages in Revelation. It has chosen one of the potential meanings (within the range of meaning) in exclusion to the others. This is why appealing to BDAG actually subverts your argument the way that it is presented. For more reading on this you can read D.A. Carson's book, _Exegetical Fallacies_. I'll let this be my last post but I would just encourage you brother to consider the methodology you're employing (whether you think my criticisms are valid or not). Blessings.


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## Porter

> Of course the postmils are inoculated against envisioning such things – except it be as a catastrophic prelude to their “Jewish dreams” of conquering the world – and this itself is a powerful debilitating factor in our attaining spiritual preparedness for severe suffering. But that’s another thread.



Where's the smiley after this statement? 

No, seriously...where's the smiley?


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## Jerusalem Blade

Brandon, in post #25 you say, “Obviously I think the point you're trying to prove is correct, but I think the methodology you're using to get there is flawed.” And you continue this line of thinking through to your last post. Either I’m a little dense or you’re not being clear, or a combination of both (though I favor the 2nd explanation), but your objections aren’t supported by anything but bald claims. In a court of law that wouldn’t fly. There are many here at PB well-advanced in Greek and Greek studies – posting as I do here is roughly equivalent to peer review in scholarly journals – and anyone can critique what I have written.

I’ve been doing Biblical word studies for over 40 years now (and in the secular English before that), so it’s not unfamiliar terrain for me – nor am I too old to learn new methods. On the particular topic at hand I have given much thought and study.

I’ll close our conversation with something Os Guinness, a well-known Christian writer, said in his, _The Dust of Death: The Sixties Counterculture and How It Changed America Forever_. He had been examining in the chapter, “Counterfeit Infinity”, the phenomenon of drug use in the sixties, and in the next chapter, “Encircling Eyes”, the resultant explosion of occult activity from that drug use:



> *“Reality [of the occult –SMR] is not to be taken for legitimacy. In a day of contentless religious experiences, the appeal of powerful spiritual phenomena is far wider than their legitimacy.
> 
> Interestingly, the word used for sorcery predicted in this context in Revelation (9:21; 18:23) is the word farmakeia, from which we get our word pharmacy or drugs. It is far from fanciful to interpret this as a prediction of the prevalence of drug-inspired sorcery at the end times.”* (pp. 309, 310)



I’ll stand by the position I have taken. I may elaborate on the topic of sorcery / drug use in another post shortly. I gather it's not a topic familiar to many Christians.

----------

Hello Cam! I haven’t seen you around for a while. Listen, in all of my 1,661 posts – at the time of this writing – I’ve never used a smiley. Not once. As a poet I prefer plain words.

And then I’m not happy with the postmil position, as you have gleaned (I can be happy with postmils, though, who are my friends, despite our differences). I note that you are postmil – isn’t that unusual for a Reformed Baptist? But I’ll give you personally a smile.

When I wind down on this thread I’ll get back to work on another one, _*The Law against “Theonomy”*_, and there I’ll get into the postmil view a bit (I do realize one can be postmil without being “Theonomic”, while one can’t be “Theonomic” without being postmil).


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## Brandon1

Mr Rafalsky

Just to clarify my unclear comment. I am saying I agree that whatever pharmakeia is, it is bad (which is the broader point you were making). 

I'm disagreeing with you finding Rev. speaking to drug use though. Hopefully that clarifies where I'm at.


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## dudley

*Amen to Vatican City...I agree*



Reformed Baptist said:


> Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that Babylon is repeatedly referred to as a city. That great city, that mighty city, but the other governmental organizations are referred to as kingdoms or nations. Not sure what to make of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vatican City perhaps.
Click to expand...


I say Amen and agree with My Reformed Baptist brother, I think that the Vatican City is one possible Babylon. The Reformers saw her "Whore Of Babylon" and her pope as the antichist and the man of sin and perdition. I believe she is an untrue church and the papacy is an antichrist system.


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## Jerusalem Blade

It is to be expected that Christians generally will be ignorant – naïve – with regard to such matters as sorcery and witchcraft. And that’s as it should be. However – and it’s a _big_ however! – there are times coming upon the church (they are already here, actually) when we shall need to be acquainted with the matter or else they shall intrude upon us from the world’s culture, and we shall be unprepared to deal with them. If John and Paul the apostles had not spoken of these things perhaps we could let it go, but they did, and so it is part of “the whole counsel of God”.

There have been objections to my denominating the word (and its cognates) almost universally translated in Bible versions as “sorcery” as pertaining to a certain class of drugs and their use (NIV has “practicing magic arts” and “magic spell”). I believe these objections come from wise caution, but even more from unfamiliarity. I mean, who knows much about sorcery if one has lead either a sheltered or a godly life – or both?

But there are some among us who have been deeply involved in such, and have been delivered from their extreme dangers. I refer to the use of hallucinogenic or psychedelic drugs. The work I mentioned in my previous post by Os Guinness has a good examination and analysis of the history of such substances from ancient times until their popular use in the 1960’s in America, and then throughout the world.

When one looks in standard dictionaries, even the queen of them, the _OED (New Edition)_, one gets spare definitions such as: “Sorcery: the use of magic or enchantment; the practice of magic arts; witchcraft” (OED). To those of us who lived in the counterculture of the sixties – or even in various offshoots of the ‘70’s to the present – those brief definitions are alive and poignant with meaning. But to the uninitiated they’re kind of academic and distant.

That’s why the Scripture is of such tremendous value to us of today, for in the original Greek it goes into explicit, precise definition, and, by virtue of the almost universal consensus of the English translators, unloads this into one word: sorcery. We do not well to interpret the Greek by rather vague and inconclusive definitions of the target language, English, as it ought to be the other way around: the precision and clarity of the Greek original should inform the English. In other words, we will get our understanding of the translated word from its meanings and nuances in the Greek.

The days are coming – I noted developments in California earlier, where there is a referendum coming in November as to whether 1 oz. or less of pot should be legalized and taxed – when drugs will no longer carry the stigma of earlier days, and in some cases will be legally available (of course they are widely and easily available now, though illegal). I noted in the OP a NY Times online article stating that researchers and practitioners in the therapeutic profession are again using LSD to cure patients of various mental illnesses. It’s getting some good press.

We who came out of the sixties – and others who have partaken – are full aware that “the use of magic or enchantment; the practice of magic arts; witchcraft” are easily comprehended in the experience of getting high on acid or mescaline, and also the stronger strains of modern grass, smoked or eaten. Before we were illumined by the Lord Jesus and His Spirit, we thought such consciousness was holy and sacred, even though there were some occasions when demonic presences showed us it was not always as we thought: there were different realms and living entities in the spirit world we had to reckon with.

The primary delusion we were all taken by was that our psychedelic experiences were sacred; if we entered into demonic realms it was due to “bad environment” or our own “inner demons”; the normative state was benign, nay, the very path to spiritual illumination. It eventually became clear that it was not as it at first seemed. There were depths of wickedness in others we tripped with we could not even plumb; and we saw such terrible depths in our own selves. And then the spirits. Some purported to be divine, helpers of the human race. We see the industry of channelers that came of such encounters. Others sought to ravage us, and many, many took their lives to try to flee such horrors, or ended up in mental institutions.

We were a generation of novice sorcerers thrown into a realm way over our heads. Our teachers lied to us. They had been deceived by demons. Some lines from a poem, _Howl II_,

Most of the poets who were singing 
when I came of age 
– realizing then I knew nothing as I ought to know
for so the drugs they gave me taught me –
are gone

I listened to their voices
danced to their music
followed their visions
these who showed in the end they were lost and deluded
though dearly loved

when the blind follow the blind 
– in this realm of sorcerers and seers – 
they both fall into the abyss 
archetypal regions of terror
beneath the lettered wasteland​

The community of saints – Christ’s people – were spared the ravages of the onslaught from Hell through the opening made in human consciousness by the sorcerous drugs. If the Bible translators gave the name to this phenomenon (which is clear enough in the Greek), _sorcery_, well, that’s the name we know it by. Christ’s people may have been spared the _direct_ onslaught, but the seismic shifting of the culture’s foundations spared no one, especially not the church, which now reaps the fruit of an age where the worldview is no longer influenced by God’s word, but by a zeitgeist of vast and deep deception, reinforced by the general consciousness of people in love with the world, and the things that are in the world. The former absolutes, which people at least gave lip service to, are now targeted for destruction, along with those “primitive throwbacks” who hold to them.

It has been argued that there is no specific meaning to the Greek _pharmakon_ and its cognates. But that’s not sound. As I have shown above, it was understood by the NT writers to refer strictly to curative medicine, or poison, or demonic potion, and in their usage in Revelation and Galatians 5:20 they meant it to signify the last category, activities which used these drugs for occult purposes. Inherent in the meaning of witchcraft and sorcery is the use of potions to facilitate intercourse with “powers” in the unseen realm. Special potions are part of the stock and trade – the very craft – of these practitioners, without which they are impotent.

I realize that many Christians live in a culture pretty much isolated from what is going on in the general culture around them. Only when drastic things occur do they take notice. We have few who devote themselves to – among other godly enterprises – gathering intelligence on what’s happening in the “general culture”. Drugs may or may not find a resurgence – though it is very likely grass will (and it’s more dangerous than ever) – but the main damage has already been done.

If grass does comes back in legal vogue will we have the Biblical authority to prohibit it to our people? If we don’t acknowledge it as sorcerous we’ll have no basis on which to forbid it. It’ll end up being just another “harmless” intoxicant to be used in moderation, while opening the saints to the satanic wavelength through “lack of knowledge”.

We should not downplay the profound impact of the sixties drug culture on both America and on the rest of the world. In the psychic realm it was equivalent to a massive nuclear event; the “fissionable material”? Demonic presence, power, and intelligence sent throughout the collective consciousness of humankind.

Downplay it at the risk of not understanding the times. And the meaning of parts of the Revelation of Jesus Christ through John the apostle to the church.

--------

Addendum: yes, the papacy and the pope were manifestations of the Babylonian spirit and also the antichrist, but not the final manifestations. This is partly why amendments to the Westminster Confession of Faith were retained by the OPC, reflecting the growing awareness of the church on some points in the light of Scripture. To limit the identification of Babylon and the antichrist to Rome during the Reformation would have blinded the church to further manifestations of these in the future, leaving her unprepared to meet the need of the hour.


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## Willem van Oranje

Who is limiting the Anti-Christ to Rome of one specific era? There are clear signs of a papal resurgence in both political and ecclesiastical power. I think our forefathers had it right, and so we must keep on protesting.


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## TimV

> when drugs will no longer carry the stigma of earlier days



You'll have to rethink that one. Drugs have been used forever and usually legally until very recently. If Sherlock Holmes wanted to use coke no one cared. Jimson weed was named after Jamestown, where it was used to get high. The list goes on forever. I recently had to stop selling _Salvia divinorum_ on ebay since it's outlawed in 17 states last time I looked.

State control of stuff like that has been on the increase only for a couple generations, with exceptions.


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## Grimmson

Jerusalem Blade said:


> ---------
> 
> Brandon, I don’t really understand what your objection is. I think I have abundantly and adequately shown that _pharmakon_, the root of all the “sorcery” words, refers only – _strictly_ – to _drugs_. The derivative words _pharmakeia_ and _pharmakeus / pharmakos_ – sorceries and sorcerers respectively likewise refer to activities or persons using drugs.


 
Brandon is recognizing the difference between drug use as applied in a recreational or medical case and that of drugs used in the cult for mystical insight and experience. There can be a case made for overlap within recreational use and cultic use, but the same case of an altered mind can emerge from drunkenness as well. The use of the substance must be considered in applying the critique towards application of sorcery. The same use must be considered with the context of scripture as well, such as Revelation 18:23, as seen earlier in the thread. The real issue that Brandon was addressing was whether or not sorcery is a synonym for drug use. I would say no, because sorcery applies drug use by the making of potions or altering one’s state of mind to receive the desired effect. One, sorcery, uses the other, drugs, within a cultic application. It is not a complete synonym for application. Sorcery, broadly like witchcraft, is the practice of performing religious functions to control or gain insight over the spiritual and natural realms. Drug use is slightly different in meaning because it is a tool for such control, but only as it applies within the cultic context. As the context changes then so does the application of the drug use, such as in a medical case. Therefore, the two are not one and the name in meaning.


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## Rich Koster

Do a little research about ganja and Rastafarians. I think it provides an observable link between setting up attempted "spiritual" experiences and smoking cannabis.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hi Tim, as PB Botanist you bring some insightful nuances to my more general statements. Thanks. There is though, in the traditional / morally conservative sectors of our population, a disdain for drug use and users – albeit perhaps not that much in California, which is not an ordinary state.

Guinness, in his aforementioned book, details quite well the history of the use of marijuana (going back millennia).

--------


Hello David (Grimmson),

Your observations are good, and you force me to be clearer about the matter. I may not have done it in this thread, but I have elsewhere made the point that even the “recreational” use of these kinds of drugs constitutes sorcery. It is not the motive or intent but the action of the drugs on the heart and mind that is the determining factor.

Let’s leave the medical use of them out for a moment (will return to it). Concerning the recreational: whether it be marijuana, mescaline, peyote, or LSD, you say, “the difference between drug use as applied in a recreational. . . case and that of drugs used in the cult for mystical insight and experience” determines whether the category “sorcery” may be applied. The distinction you make between the two uses is not valid.

If you and a friend are getting in a car in order to go to a nearby town, the friend for the purpose of partying and you for spiritual activities, it remains true that you both used the same vehicle and arrived in the same place, despite your differing motives in going.

Likewise with these drugs, their psychopharmacological action within and affect upon the systems of the participants is identical regardless of reasons for taking them. Yes, one may be attuned to having some sort of “fun” and the other to some sort of mental or psychic activity but they are both in the same _*place*_ despite their varying goals and perceptions. What “place” am I talking of? It is a psychic / spiritual realm of consciousness the drugs provide a “gateway” to. Despite the focus of one’s awareness (“fun” or “higher consciousness”) one has entered a psychic wavelength where spirit entities have direct access to a person’s being. That’s the action of these drugs whatever the “reasons” for taking them! You get in the car and you’ll get to where it’s going. You may not even be aware of all that is in the place you have arrived at, but you’re still there. Many folks have arrived at _the place_ just intending to groove and play and have plunged into an abyss of horrors.

I wrote the following about grass, which someone here (a few years ago) was disputing the harm of:



> “I do not say that ‘every use of marijuana, medicinal or otherwise, is tantamount to using drugs *for the purpose* of sorcery…’ But whether that is the intended purpose or not does not matter – you go through a door you go through a door, whatever your reason. I say the motive is negligible; and you may not even be aware of the realm you are in; you may think you’re just in a fun mildly euphoric state, akin to mild alcohol intoxication. But you are on that wavelength. And there will be a toll.
> 
> In terms of psychopharmacology the properties of the THC in cannabis sativa [marijuana] put it on a level with the other psychedelics and their properties. Whatever the motives are for using it, I repeat, they do not negate the effect of the chemicals on the human system. And thus, it (grass) is equivalent to the other drugs classified under sorcery. You may deny it all you want, but the psychopharmacological effects (not necessarily in the perception of the one taking it) contradict your denial.
> 
> You are aware that many psychiatrists routinely used LSD as a therapeutic tool, and that they said it was not harmful when used wisely and under medical supervision? The damage was done to their patients despite their caveat.
> 
> Unless you are *absolutely* certain that marijuana is not in the class of sorcerous drugs, you do ill telling others it is not, for you pave the way to their committing grievous sin, and endanger their souls. Perhaps you do not have a pastoral care for them, and this is just an exercise in exploring/defending ‘Christian liberty’ to you, but your view works evil – yes, though I know you do not intend it – and I do have a pastoral care, and I know the fruit of your teaching.”



David, the “altered mind that can emerge from drunkenness” is not in the same league as the drugs we are discussing. One might as well try to equate water and gasoline.


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## TimV

> . There is though, in the traditional / morally conservative sectors of our population, a disdain for drug use and users



True, but the attitude coincides more with Prohibition mentality and Big State control than traditional morality.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Some interesting translation from the _Jewish New Testament_, by David H. Stern:

*Revelation 9:21*: Nor did they turn from their murdering, their misuse of drugs in connection with the occult, their sexual immorality or their stealing.

*Revelation 21:8*: But as for the cowardly, the untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who misuse drugs in connection with the occult, idol-worshippers, and all liars — their destiny is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, the second death.


----------


Ok, Tim, disdain is not the word _I’d_ use for _my_ attitude to “drug use and users”, having come from thence, thus having compassion on them, and also understanding why some folks go that route. But as for the drug use itself – the sorcery leading souls into the satanic realm – it is condemned by Scripture. And those that promote it, well, the word of God warns of terrible judgment in store for them unless they repent and turn to the Saviour for a new heart and life.

If I ever get back to Woodstock to live (where I lived 19 years), I will (God willing) preach the Kingdom of God and the mercies of His Christ – and take a stand against what drug use remains there. I will make it known it violates the law of God, is under His curse, and has no place among His people.

This is simply wholesome godliness.

Whether one embarks on a foolish, lustful and hedonistic sorcery (drinking deep the pleasures of the world, with demonic enhancement), or a “white” sorcery (unwittingly using demonic power to supposedly illumine and spiritually bless others), or “black” sorcery (knowingly using satanic power to control and destroy others, and exalt the devil) – it is all of the same cloth: sorcery. And it all shall end in the lake of fire.

In Revelation 18, when God’s judgment falls on Babylon and she is destroyed being “utterly burned with fire. . . in one hour”, precipitating mass death and famine, so that those in ships at sea stay “afar off for fear of her torment”, bewailing and lamenting the destruction of that great and mighty city who made all the kings and merchants of the earth rich, when this comes upon her an angel cries out, “Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her” (v. 20), the saints will rejoice – are commanded to rejoice – at the great enemy of God and His beleaguered people destroyed forever, by whose “sorceries were all nations deceived” (v. 23). Whatever this Babylon is, it is not full-blown so as to be identified with certainty _*yet*_, but we are told to rejoice over her demise. Those who do not, sympathize and identify with her, their loyalty lying with her and not with God.

As I have said, the sorceries that have gone throughout the world, undermining the Biblical worldview, reason, law and order in the nations, by means of enabling satanic infiltration and influence – those responsible for this sorcery and the perpetuation of its after-effects shall be confronted by “the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and. . . the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev 6:16, 17).

These severe attitudes to sorcerous drug use are way beyond “Prohibition mentality and Big State control” – belonging rather to the holiness of Heaven and its righteous indignation. For whatever facilitates the activity and power of the devil wars against the infinite dignity and majesty of Heaven’s King.


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## Brandon1

David, 

Thanks so much for your post.

I'm even somewhat skeptical that every time the word is used it refers to witch's taking "potions." It seems that the word (at least in its NT usage) is primarily focused on the occult. Perhaps this included drug usage (maybe even usually) but I'm skeptical that it always means they were taking potions. I don't have access to the LXX but what word is used with the witch of Endor? There is no indication that she was using drugs right?


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## Grimmson

Brandon1 said:


> I don't have access to the LXX but what word is used with the witch of Endor? There is no indication that she was using drugs right?


If this is to be discussed further, I suggest we make a new thread. 

I think it would be safe to assume some presence of Canaanite sorcery, based on their inhabitants during the time of Joshua in Endor. The phrase that used for her (the witch) is γυνὴ ἐγγαστρίμυθος, see NEW ADVENT BIBLE: 1 Samuel 28 (verse 7) for the Septuagint for conformation. According to Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint - Google Books ἐγγαστρίμυθος should be seen as a female ventriloquist or as for a descriptive noun as a woman, because of γυνὴ, familiar with spirits as a medium (yes, I added to Taylor’s description). It does not necessarily in Greek literature imply drug use in necromancy/mediums, but am not as sure regarding the Canaanite rites of the dead. It was common in Greek rites to require a blood sacrifice of sorts (such as by offering up an animal) and some type of ritualistic incantation/spell casting or prayer of invocation to bring out the dead spirit for communication. Drugs were not necessarily used in practice, such as the case in Homer’s Odyssey when Odysseus was communicating with the dead (but in that case it was not through a human medium). We cannot apply the use of drugs in the case of the witch of Endor unless we are aware of the Canaanite rite practices of mediums in that region, because the Classical Greek alone does not communicate it and I cannot tell you about the Hebrew. Talismans and objects of death (like animal/human bones and clothing) have been commonly used in various cultures, but I cannot say for sure regarding the Canaanite rites without serious study. In this case, I think it is clear to say that in the rite used in Endor sometype of spell casting was involved but I cannot say drug use was or was not applied in the ritual.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello again, Brandon, I thought you’d gone.

The woman with a “familiar [or divining] spirit” whom Saul consulted re Samuel (1 Sam 28:7 ff.) is not called a witch in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, or NIV. In the LXX there are no words referring to drug use in this passage. She is spoken of as a “medium” or “spiritist”. In popular usage she is called “the witch of Endor”.

However, in Exodus 7:11 (LXX), there the sorcerers of Pharaoh’s court are designated by the Greek _*pharmakos*_. 

And in Deuteronomy 18:10 (LXX v. 11) where the various occultists are named, the witch is designated a _*pharmakos*_. In the famous passage of Exodus 22:18 (KJV), “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, witch in the LXX is called a _*pharmakos*_, one who uses drugs for occult purposes. In the NT era we do not put witches – _pharmakos_ – to death (though “Theonomists” would), but rather the NT equivalent: “put away from among yourselves that wicked person” (1 Cor 5:13), signifying excommunication for those unrepentantly practicing wickedness.

I have been using Lancelot C.L. Brenton’s edition of the Septuagint, and the accompanying concordance by George Morrish (both from Zondervan).

I realize this teaching will meet opposition from those not willing to submit to “doctrine which is according to godliness” (1 Tim 6:3) – _not at all implying that Brandon or David are in this class!_ – but I have met those who are. They like their weed (or whatever) and are not willing to give it up. We learned from Tim there are many natural drugs unclassified by the government which people regularly use to get high, seeing as they are legal. I believe that genuine Indians belonging to the Native American Church  are legally allowed to use peyote, a powerful hallucinogen.

“In 1994 Congress--backed by the Drug Enforcement Agency and other federal law-enforcement officials--rebuked the high court by reaffirming the right to use peyote in religious ways, and by preventing states from cracking down on the transport of peyote.” [source]​
I am not at all the only Christian who has taken this position, though perhaps one of the few here at PB, but it is an important matter. When sorcery / sorcerers come into the church – even in stealth mode – it powerfully impacts the communion of the Body.

I would not presently take a position – as an officer in the church – on the genuinely medical use of marijuana, yet with this caveat: though it may very well alleviate pain, anxiety (in the face of death in terminal illness), and other symptoms (including psychopathological), it nonetheless brings the user into the spirit realms (cannot demons affect the human system for “good”?), and it is a sorcerous potion.

Yes, David, it’s a good idea to start this in another thread if you wish to continue it. And thanks for your informative comments.

I’ll have to sign off for now, for sermon preparation. Back later Sunday or so.


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## Jerusalem Blade

*If We Are Babylon . . .*

Then what are we to do? For a terrible storm is coming, tsunamis of brilliant flame razing great swaths through our land, leaving toxic what is not destroyed.

It is not settled and certain we are this dread entity, but one suspects it may well be the case. _I_ suspect it, as many items match the profile, though some remain to be realized.

What now is to be our stance toward the culture? Are we to seek its renewal, to “reweave the unraveling of creation” as one hopeful seer calls works of mercy and love in transforming the culture and our environment so as to “make this world a great place” to live in? Works of mercy and bringing justice and gladness into lives surely cannot harm, but if we do not bring the Gospel of eternal life in Christ at the same time we but give nice coats to those on the verge of entering the door to eternal torment.

A highly significant item in the Babylon profile _missing_ from the American checklist is the bloody – and official – persecution of Christians. Given the presence of most other items, I await this. Though it may come in one decade, or two (or more, or less), and I may not be here to see it.

So in the meanwhile? Teach people to walk with Christ, to know what to expect, to know how to avail oneself of grace to help in time of need. Raise up serious saints.

It is important to clear the deck of false eschatologies, which will work against being prepared for what is to come. This requires laboring in the word and in doctrine.

It is apparent that non-confessional churches drift into error and eventual apostasy, as there are no other stays to hold them fast; men come and go. And confessional churches – I think particularly of the Reformed communions – are even now facing great stress to keep their confessions intact. Like a building under pressure from gale winds creaks and groans as its supporting structure is impacted by the force of the storm, so the faithful Reformed churches strain against the forces of dissolution aimed at their integrity. In the complex of Reformed churches, many outbuildings have already fallen, or been taken over by hostiles, and the faithful labor mightily to stem the ill tide.

It is clear enough that the slide into apostasy is picking up; only those who have solid grips on the Rock of safety – or rather who cry out to Him who is the Rock to grip _them_ – do not slip into the pit.

If we set ourselves for the long haul – acknowledging that Babylon may possibly not realize her full identity for some decades – then we shall have need to think and plan strategically: How shall we organize our churches? What will be our emphases in teaching and mentoring? What spiritual and relational skills will we focus on and seek to inculcate in the disciples given into our care? What kind of material and spiritual preparations will we advise our people to seek? Do we think long-term, or only for the day or year?

Certainly community-building will be a high priority, equal to (but not greater than) sound doctrine. In the days to come we shall have need of grace-oriented communities for spiritual and material sustenance. For survival.

If indeed we are the last and greatest Babylon manifestation yet in its embryonic stage, we have the priceless gift of time. Time to order our priorities; time to prepare our hearts while yet in relative ease for the days when that ease vanishes (cf. Jer 12:5). 

And what shall we do but what we should have been doing anyway: the pastors and elders – as well the mature saints – asking the Lord for greater intimacy of communion with Him, a greater awareness of being in His presence through His promises in Scripture, and then as we realize these things feed our people with the comfort we ourselves have been comforted by, through the hearing of our faith. For all our blessings are by faith in His word.

It shall be time to teach the people that to come in the name of Jesus is not merely to see the name as a label for a person, for in Biblical days the name of God was His very presence, His character and being. To be in His name was to be in Him, clothed with Him, hid in Him, as in, “The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe” (Prov 18:10). A prudent man foresees the evil, and hides himself (Prov 22:3).

There is a great force now at work to cause those not rooted and grounded in Christ’s love and truth to fall away from “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). If our faith is pure and our walk godly in His presence we shall not succumb to the “hipster” style of Christianity – or the other modern fashions drenched in the wine of the world – for we will walk as true 21st century humans in the ancient, the eternal, paths.

Prepare for many to fall away, even dear friends and loved ones. Remain constant and gracious, reflecting the light of the eternal One who indwells us, as lighthouses in the storm.

If we are Babylon (or even if we are not!), this is how we should live. But if we are, how much the more should we, like the ants, prepare for a lean season (Prov 30:25; 6:6).

Some may think my musings foolish, and some wise, but as for me, I know how I shall live from henceforth till the end, by God’s grace.


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## Turtle

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Bryan (Turtle),
> 
> Are you reading any of the amil commentators? If so, which among them are your favorites? Are your thoughts just your own speculations apart from them?
> 
> I am trying to stay close to the Biblical data as understood by the just-mentioned commentators, as I have rejected the other schools’ interpretations of Scripture, and now have little interest in them.




Steve (Blade),

Decades ago my faith was shaken over a sharp theological disagreement among groups that profess one another to be brothers and sisters in Christ, yet treat each other with a measure of rejection. In my perplexity, I began diligent prayers and careful studies recommended by trusted teachers and preachers from each camp. Intellectual rigor required I gave preference to none. I studied diligently and wore out the pages of the recommended commentators but was disappointed to find no solace because though the commentators helped me understand the various positions, I found they too often had logical fallacies rendering them inconclusive. My hopes of finding conclusive proof were raised when I learned of the existence of books by pastors that had switched their conviction from one camp to the other. I figured surely the threshold of accuracy for these books would have to be higher than previous commentators and books, if indeed a pastor had been persuaded to change his position. The threshold was higher, however, I was disappointed more greatly because I found that these books also were inconclusive, resulting in even more perplexity. What was I to do?

I approached another pastor who listened carefully to my perplexity and the details of my studies. He said, “Of course you are perplexed. I have a book that sheds a lot of light on commentaries!” When it dawned on me why I was offended at his remark, I thanked him.




Jerusalem Blade said:


> ….
> 
> *Part 1, The Culture of the American Empire*
> 
> A. Sorceries
> 
> I want first to consider a point pretty much overlooked by commentators, although one – Simon Kistemaker – _does_ focus on it, and that is the statement in Revelation 18:23, giving as part of the cause for the horrific judgment meted upon Babylon, *“for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived”* (all scripture quotations will be from the Authorized Version unless otherwise noted; I may on occasion modernize the language).
> 
> Kistemaker comments on this phrase,
> 
> “. . . Babylon deceived the nations with sorcery. The expression _sorcery_ relates to the practice of magic (9:21). While it allows a person ‘to control the gods, it is at the same time a gift and revelation of the gods to men’ [Colin Brown, “Magic,” _New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology_, 2:556]. This sin is an utter abomination to God (Deut.18:10-12). All those Israelites who practiced sorcery or witchcraft were to be put to death, according to the Law of Moses (Exod. 22:18; Lev. 20:6. 27). . . And John states that those who practice the magic arts will be consigned to the lake of fire and burning sulfur (21:8; 22:15).” [_New Testament Commentary: Revelation_ (Baker 2001), p. 503].​
> Merrill F. Unger in his, _Unger’s Bible Dictionary_, says “Sorcery is . . . the practice of the occult arts under the power of evil spirits or demons and has been common in all ages of the world’s history.” (p. 1039)
> 
> Lest anyone think this is but some archaic or esoteric practice unrelated to our 21st century world, I shall proceed in a moment to show its current relevance. Other commentators (who I value greatly) often think of “sorceries” rather loosely as merely deception and deceptive practices, apart from a connection to the magic arts, but I don’t think their view does justice to the Biblical data. As this is a key reason why I see America a strong candidate for being the Babylon spoken of in Revelation, I shall be developing this point. First, for understanding’s sake, some New Testament Greek background; I excerpt from _The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament_, by Spiros Zodhiates,
> 
> “Strong’s # 5331, _*pharmakeia*_, from _pharmakon_, a drug, which in the Gr. writers is used both for a curative or medicinal drug, and also as a poisonous one. _*Pharmakeia*_ means the occult, sorcery, witchcraft, illicit pharmaceuticals, trance, magical incantation with drugs (Gal. 5:20; _*Rev. 9:21; 18:23*_; Sept.: Ex. 7:22; Is. 47:9, 12). (pp. 1437, 1438)
> 
> “Strong’s # 5332, _*pharmakeus*_; gen. _pharmakeos_, from _pharmakeuo_, to administer a drug. An enchanter with drugs, a sorcerer (_*Rev. 21:8* [TR]) (Ibid., p. 1438)
> 
> “Strong’s #5333, *pharmakos*, gen. pharmakou. A magician, sorcerer, enchanter (*Rev. 21:8* [UBS]; *22:15*; Sept.: Ex. 7:11; 9:11; Deut. 18:10; Dan. 2:2). The same as pharmakeus (5332). The noun pharmakeia (5331) means the preparing and giving of medicine, and in the NT, sorcery, enchantment.” (Ibid.)_​_
> 
> To show why the use of “sorceries” in the Rev 18:23 passage refers to activities involving certain kinds of drugs rather then mere deceptive practices, consider the classes of transgressors in Rev 21:8 who are consigned to “the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”: “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars”. Sorcerers (from pharmakeus) here specifically means one who administers or uses a certain class of drugs to “enchant”, to cast a psychic spell upon by use of drugs and demonic power. It doesn’t mean a deceiver generally or even figuratively, but specifically one who uses sorcerous potions. Likewise in Rev 22:15 where a similar Greek word, pharmakos, is used for sorcerer, with the same meaning as pharmakeus in 21:8. So here we have real drug-dealing “sorcerers” declared liable for judgment….._


_

I have appreciated reading this thread that asks, “Are we (the United States) Babylon?”. 

“Sorceries” is one of several useful criteria in Rev 18:23 to help assess proposals concerning the identity of Babylon, but probably is a little too narrow or subordinate to be conclusive. In 18:23, the “sorceries” of Babylon are cited as the cause of deception, proving the culpability of Babylon. It was proposed earlier in the thread that “sorceries” "refers to activities involving certain kinds of drugs”, which may account for some of the means by which all the nations were deceived. However I have to ask, is it enough to merely abstain from drugs to be not deceived in order to overcome unto the end? Or are drugs included in the experience of all that are deceived? It seems to me that the explanation of drugs does not account for the experience and persuasion of all the nations that were deceived by that great city. 

It appears that there is a direct explanation of the “sorceries” cited in 18:23, showing the activities and the means of deception of Babylon. A comparison of 13:14 (cf. 16:14 and 19:20) shows the deception and the activities (that evidence their deception) of them that dwell on the earth, of all kindreds, and tongues and nations who have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 

While the U.S. has many reasons for which it will be judged by the Lord, It does not appear to be the city that causes the deceptions for which Babylon is judged. 

Bryan_


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## Peairtach

Who is the ''we'' in "Are we Babylon?'' ? 

The Church or America? All of North and South America or just the US?


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## Jerusalem Blade

Bryan (Turtle),

I note that in your long search for a cogent eschatology, you use the phrase, “[a high] threshold of accuracy” as a criterion for what would make a view acceptable. Let me ask you, accuracy with regard to what?

I do suppose that the most important thing in this search pertains to the basic interpretive paradigm we would hold, and it seems to me there are three, the premil, the postmil, and the amil. Is it between these three you hang suspended and perplexed? Or between any two of them? Once you come to a view you think has fidelity to the Biblical data – with the remaining two _not_ having such fidelity, and thus to be discarded – there is the matter of fine-tuning your apprehension among the smaller sub-categories, as well as the minor disagreements between the best expositors of your chosen view.

So where are you in this scheme of things?

You said,



> “I have to ask, is it enough to merely abstain from drugs to be not deceived in order to overcome unto the end? Or are drugs included in the experience of all that are deceived? It seems to me that the explanation of drugs does not account for the experience and persuasion of all the nations that were deceived by that great city.”



Of course it is not enough to abstain from drugs to be free of deception and to overcome! Nor are drugs included in the experience of all that are deceived! How many “straight” people are blind to the truth and perishing? Vast multitudes! You miss my point. There was an event (the very term now used for military-caliber biological, chemical, or nuclear _events_) that befell the entire world through the drug-energized sixties generation in America, as this counterculture permeated the nations and cultures of the world through music, literature, art, film, and other culture-bearing vehicles. These nations of the world were leavened from within by the sorceries exported into them, and became vulnerable to satanic deception as a result. They became open to input from the satanic realm, mentally and spiritually. This damage done is irreversible. It was, in the psychic realm, the equivalent of a massive nuclear detonation. As noted in the OP, it came from America, and into the United Kingdom, and into all the world.

Atheism, New Age, satanic religions (the Hindu, Islamic, Confucian, et al), and various philosophies were all given a tremendous boost by this psychic explosion, either directly or indirectly. The faith of Christ was increasingly suppressed, relativized, and marginalized as the new “enlightened” thinking spread.

Many people who never had or would take drugs were influenced by the postmodern juggernaut that was energized with the new thinking.

You said you have been seeking to understand eschatology for “decades” so I assume you’re not a wet-behind-the-ears kid. Perhaps you were even alive and of age during the tumultuous ‘60s. I was in my early twenties then, a poet, and on the road.

At any rate, arriving at an interpretive paradigm you accept to the exclusion of the others is the beginning of understanding.

-------

Richard,

My conjecture is that the “we” is America, the U.S. The apostate and false church is part of Babylon, but Babylon is not limited to that apostate church. Babylon is the culture (and economic system) of the unregenerate and hostile world in opposition to God, which I think is headquartered in America, as the worldwide Babylonian system was once headquartered in Chaldean Babylon and, later, in Rome.

Observing developments, it appears that, if my conjecture is correct, the Biblical Babylon is still embryonic in its development (like the little gestating aliens in the Sigourney films), and may take a few decades, more or less, to mature into the bloodthirsty monster she truly is. Though to the unregenerate, she will be a beauty. At least until they turn against her, her promises of prosperity and ease become empty, and she will be hated, for the Lord will have “put in their hearts” (Rev 17:17) to hate and destroy her.

One last caveat: another writer has well said of these things, “God may again shuffle the deck, but the cards as they are currently dealt point to America as Babylon the Great.”

I may not be adding to this thread again (except perhaps to respond), as I am beginning to preach through Luke this week, and that’s where my attention will, to a great extent, be.


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## Rich Koster

Brother Steve, I appreciate your well thought-out answers. I'm in agreement that we should build ourselves a spiritual (and maybe physical) bunker, and warn others of the terrible blast (for lack of better terms) to come. I have been debating with some Dominionists lately, and believe they are in for a rude awakening in the near future.


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