# Best books refuting Post Modernism?



## arapahoepark (Apr 8, 2020)

What are some of the best books or resources refuting post modernist notions of relativism and their moral code? If I ever become a teacher, I want to be prepared to challenge the students on their thoughts since many seem pretty far gone that the LGBT needs rights, the only wrong is being told what to do and all that garbage.


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## jwright82 (Apr 8, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> What are some of the best books or resources refuting post modernist notions of relativism and their moral code? If I ever become a teacher, I want to be prepared to challenge the students on their thoughts since many seem pretty far gone that the LGBT needs rights, the only wrong is being told what to do and all that garbage.


There's no shortage of bad books on postmodernism. Most evangelical books are bad on acedimic postmodernism. They are good on the street level PM. I'll get a list together later of what I have.

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## RamistThomist (Apr 8, 2020)

By postmodernism do you mean the sophomore in college who smokes weed and says, "It's all relative, bruh."? Or do you mean academic French post-structuralism?

I have some severe problems with James KA Smith's _Who's Afraid of Postmodernism: taking derrida to church_? That said, he does a good job in presenting what they are and aren't saying.

Kevin Vanhoozer's _Is There a Meaning in this Text?_ is the best all around take.

We also need to make a distinction between the emerging church and postmodernism The emergent guys found postmodernism about 15 years after the French discarded it. They aren't very academic and mixed and matched everything. 

It's best to kind of see the flow of epistemoogy over the last century. I'll see what I can do on it.

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## arapahoepark (Apr 8, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> By postmodernism do you mean the sophomore in college who smokes weed and says, "It's all relative, bruh."? Or do you mean academic French post-structuralism?
> 
> I have some severe problems with James KA Smith's _Who's Afraid of Postmodernism: taking derrida to church_? That said, he does a good job in presenting what they are and aren't saying.
> 
> ...


Probably somewhere in between...I certainly wouldn't mind refuting the latter though.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 8, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> Probably somewhere in between...I certainly wouldn't mind refuting the latter though.



I know we use the phrase "Cultural Marxism" a lot (like, per se, the Gospel Coalition). I do think, however, that a critical analysis of Marx on things like fetishism, etc., might be fruitful.

You won't find many (any?) pure postmodernists today. I think it has mutated into Critical Theory. It's a combination of postmodernism and AK-47s and molotov cocktails. I'll see if I can run a genealogy on it later.

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## jwright82 (Apr 8, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> By postmodernism do you mean the sophomore in college who smokes weed and says, "It's all relative, bruh."? Or do you mean academic French post-structuralism?
> 
> I have some severe problems with James KA Smith's _Who's Afraid of Postmodernism: taking derrida to church_? That said, he does a good job in presenting what they are and aren't saying.
> 
> ...


James K. A. Smith, Vanhoozer, and Michael Horton are some of the only Christian thinkers who get it, not saying they're aren't others.
My litmus test is how they deal with Rorty, Nietzsche, and the later Wittgenstein. To call Rorty and Wittgenstein relativists is just irresponsible reading of their works. And if I read one more evangelical call Nietzsche a nihilist I'm going to puke. Central to his work is a critique of Chritianity and central to that critique is that it led, in his opinion, to Nihilism (which he thought was bad). I'm not saying he's not a nihilist just that to show it is easier said than done.


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## jwright82 (Apr 8, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I know we use the phrase "Cultural Marxism" a lot (like, per se, the Gospel Coalition). I do think, however, that a critical analysis of Marx on things like fetishism, etc., might be fruitful.
> 
> You won't find many (any?) pure postmodernists today. I think it has mutated into Critical Theory. It's a combination of postmodernism and AK-47s and molotov cocktails. I'll see if I can run a genealogy on it later.


Genealogy, I see what you did there. Man I love philosophy jokes.


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## jwright82 (Apr 8, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I know we use the phrase "Cultural Marxism" a lot (like, per se, the Gospel Coalition). I do think, however, that a critical analysis of Marx on things like fetishism, etc., might be fruitful.
> 
> You won't find many (any?) pure postmodernists today. I think it has mutated into Critical Theory. It's a combination of postmodernism and AK-47s and molotov cocktails. I'll see if I can run a genealogy on it later.


It's funny because in the general church you and I are probably among a hand full of people who don't think we live in a postmodern world. I've had endless discussions with well meaning people about this. It's one of the only situations where I throw in the philosopher card. And anyone who's paid attention to my posts knows that I seek, maybe not successful, to take the time to explain things for the non philosopher. Except when you and I are engaged in one of our technical discussions and to do that would take too much space.

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## VictorBravo (Apr 8, 2020)

jwright82 said:


> It's funny because in the general church you and I are probably among a hand full of people who don't think we live in a postmodern world.



Some folks still think we live in a modernist world.



BayouHuguenot said:


> I think it has mutated into Critical Theory.



I used to think, as a rule of thumb, that culture/politics lagged behind law and law lagged behind philosophy. But now it's all mixed up. In law, Critical Legal Studies reach a zenith around the early 90s, and then started its natural decline into what I sometimes think is a reversion to a variation of modernism based upon personal feelings rather than empiricism.

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## jwright82 (Apr 8, 2020)

VictorBravo said:


> Some folks still think we live in a modernist world.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to think, as a rule of thumb, that culture/politics lagged behind law and law lagged behind philosophy. But now it's all mixed up. In law, Critical Legal Studies reach a zenith around the early 90s, and then started its natural decline into what I sometimes think is a reversion to a variation of modernism based upon personal feelings rather than empiricism.


I see your point, funny btw. But, putting philosopher hat on, as an historical moment modernism is behind us. It ended with the nuclear bomb. My disertation, had I ever had the chance to write one, was gonna be on this subject. But we do live in "modern" times, maybe Charlie Chaplin could narrate my thesis?


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## VictorBravo (Apr 8, 2020)

jwright82 said:


> It ended with the nuclear bomb.



That's as good a reference point as any.

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