# Is It Still Possible To Rob God?



## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

I did not want to hijack any present threads so I started a new one.

Obviously, from Mal 3 we see that it was possible in the OT to rob God. This of course is established by the fact that we are taught in Lev and Deut that the tithes and the firstfruits already belonged to God before they were even brought to the priest. 

Many say that we are no longer bound by tithes and firstfruits. Does that mean that God no longer owns a portion of our increase? Is it still possible to rob God?


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## Ivan (Aug 15, 2007)

All that I have is God's. I'm His steward. I am to use what God has given me for His Glory...all of it.


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## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

Ivan said:


> All that I have is God's. I'm His steward. I am to use what God has given me for His Glory...all of it.



But wouldn't that have been true of OT Israel? Yet God said they had robbed Him in tithes and offerings.


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## satz (Aug 15, 2007)

I think that while the tithe, in terms of its formal administration and the exact percentages required was indeed a part of the law that is now done away with, the principle of giving to God is something that exists above and beyond that. So Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (sp?) before the Law, and Solomon in his proverbs did address the idea of giving. Paul also shows us in his epistles to the Corinthians that giving as a prinicple contiunes into the NT even if the tithe itself does not.

So yes, I think it would be possible to rob God today.


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## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

satz said:


> I think that while the tithe, in terms of its formal administration and the exact percentages required was indeed a part of the law that is now done away with, the principle of giving to God is something that exists above and beyond that. So Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (sp?) before the Law, and Solomon in his proverbs did address the idea of giving. Paul also shows us in his epistles to the Corinthians that giving as a prinicple contiunes into the NT even if the tithe itself does not.
> 
> So yes, I think it would be possible to rob God today.



How does one know when they have robbed God?


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## satz (Aug 15, 2007)

I don't know if we can nail down an exact figure or percentage. I think we should give proportionate to income and that God loves a cheerful giver. I think what Pastor Ivan said about everything we have belonging to God is a good guiding principle. I do not think it is wrong for the rich to remain rich per se, but they are to always be ready to give as the need arises as 1 Tim 6 commands them.


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## KMK (Aug 16, 2007)

satz said:


> I don't know if we can nail down an exact figure or percentage. I think we should give proportionate to income and that God loves a cheerful giver. I think what Pastor Ivan said about everything we have belonging to God is a good guiding principle. I do not think it is wrong for the rich to remain rich per se, but they are to always be ready to give as the need arises as 1 Tim 6 commands them.



If it is still possible to rob God then it would of course still be a sin to rob God as well. If it is a sin to rob God, then is it a sin that should come under church discipline? If there is no exact percentage that dictates whether a man is robbing God, how does an elder enforce this disicpline? Shepherd: "You're robbing God." Sheep: "How do you know?" "Ummm, your not giving cheerfully." "How much do I need to give to be a cheerful giver?" "Uhhh, I mean, you're not ready to give as the need arises! Yeah, that's it!" "How much am I required to give when the need arises?" "OK. Let's try this agian. You are robbing God because you are not giving everything to God!" "So everyone in the church needs to give everything to the church? Good luck!"

I am not saying that it is sinful not to tithe but am just thinking about the ramifications of Mal 3 in regards to the tithe. You have to admit it was a lot easier to figure out in the OT!


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Aug 16, 2007)

As I have revealed in another thread, I do believe the tithe is God's standard of giving for all ages. I understand the arguments about the Israelites giving more, etc. but I hold to the classical understanding of distinctions within the Law as revealed in the OT: Moral, Judicial, Ceremonial. Certain aspects of the OT saint's giving was ceremonial, and has passed away, but the tithe was moral. This is why it was in force in the days of the patriarchs, before the establishment of the ceremonial law under Moses. 

That being said, I also believe that tithing is an act of private worship, and that while it is within the purview of the church to admonish, encourage, teach, instruct, etc. the flock to give God His due, and to be generous over and above the tithe as other needs arise, that one's personal finances are not subject to ecclesiastical review, unless the family is willing to undergo such a review as a part of pastoral care. 

The Lord will get His tithe--He is quite capable of "blowing on your money" if you refuse to give Him His due--to rob Him. When people come to me and state that things are tight, they're struggling with finances, etc. my first question is "Are you tithing?" I am convinced that many people struggle financially because they are robbing God and are under His fatherly chastisement. Note this from Haggai 1:

5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. 6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages_ to put it_ into a bag with holes. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. 8 Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the LORD. 9 Ye looked for much, and, lo,_ it came_ to little; and when ye brought_ it_ home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that_ is_ waste, and ye run every man unto his own house. 10 Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed_ from_ her fruit. 11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon_ that_ which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands. 

We need not, as churchmen, inspect the folks' checkbook and make such judgments. Be vocal about giving, tithing, etc. Preach it when it arises in your sermon text, or is a good application therefrom. Counsel those in the Church that habitually struggle financially about covetousness, and tithing. And, remember that the Lord is capable of exacting His due by various means.


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## KMK (Aug 16, 2007)

Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> The Lord will get His tithe--He is quite capable of "blowing on your money" if you refuse to give Him His due--to rob Him. When people come to me and state that things are tight, they're struggling with finances, etc. my first question is "Are you tithing?" I am convinced that many people struggle financially because they are robbing God and are under His fatherly chastisement.



I agree. But if there is not tithe anymore, it very difficult to help people in this way because everything is so ambiguous. Most of the people you deal with are struggling with bringing God too little, not too much. The tithe makes for a great starting point. My life totally changed for the better when I finally submitted to my conscience regarding the tithe.

As for the public vs. private debate I am knew to this. I will have to learn. I always to it for granted that it was a part of public worship because it certainly was done publicly in the OT.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Aug 16, 2007)

Dear Ken, 

Thanks for the reply. I always look forward to discussing things with you because you make me think, and because your replies are irenic and thoughtful. 

As for the public/private debate, the argument does settle on Matthew 6.1-4. I understand that others have discounted this argument because of the parallels to prayer and fasting in that passage, but I humbly and respectfully disagree for the following reasons:

1. All these, prayer, fasting, and tithing/giving can be done either publicly, or privately. An individual, when he participates in these activitives, is to do so in secret, so as not to draw attention to himself and be tempted to the sin of pride. 
2. If a Church desires to give to a ministry, or an individual, or to pray, or to fast, this must be public so as to involve all parties. So, we sometimes, as a Church, take a special offering for someone--the people give privately, and we as a Church give publicly to the ministry or person. We all must know of the opportunity, and the gift in that case is a public gift. The same is true of fasting and prayer--it *must* be public, for we all do it together. 
3. But, for a man to pray, fast, or give individually, and publicly, this is forbidden by the Lord. 

This is why the Directory for Family Worship (Concurrently issued by the Westminster Assembly with the Confession and Catechisms) referred to what we call family worship as "private worship" and what we call private worship (individual) as "secret worship". Note:

I. And first, for secret worship, it is most necessary, that every one apart, and by themselves, be given to prayer and meditation, the unspeakable benefit whereof is best known to them who are most exercised therein; this being the mean whereby, in a special way, communion with God is entertained, and right preparation for all other duties obtained: and therefore it becometh not only pastors, within their several charges, to press persons of all sorts to perform this duty morning and evening, and at other occasions; but also it is incumbent to the head of every family to have a care, that both themselves, and all within their charge, be daily diligent herein. 

Note--every one apart. This is in keeping with Pauls command in 1 Corinthians 16.1-2 The original is clear, and well represented in the KJV: "let every one of you lay by him in store" perhaps more clearly "Let every one of you *himself* lay by in store..."

Good to hear from you, Ken!


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## KMK (Aug 17, 2007)

Thank you for the kind words Todd. I appreciate your summary of your position. It gives me much on which to meditate. 

I wonder, however, if this is a matter of propriety and not precept. We take it for granted that we can have a box by the door and an individual could drop in his paper currency and might come very close to doing so in complete privacy. A church could even forbid checks as offerings in order to promote secrecy. But certainly in some cultures this would not be possible. In the OT and even in contemporary cultures where currency is not regularly used, an individual might be bringing in a tithe of apples in a basket or even pig or a goat! There is no way to have a box by the door for something like that! 

I am not being argumentative, nor am I challenging your convictions, but am just thinking out loud.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Aug 17, 2007)

KMK said:


> Thank you for the kind words Todd. I appreciate your summary of your position. It gives me much on which to meditate.
> 
> I wonder, however, if this is a matter of propriety and not precept. We take it for granted that we can have a box by the door and an individual could drop in his paper currency and might come very close to doing so in complete privacy. A church could even forbid checks as offerings in order to promote secrecy. But certainly in some cultures this would not be possible. In the OT and even in contemporary cultures where currency is not regularly used, an individual might be bringing in a tithe of apples in a basket or even pig or a goat! There is no way to have a box by the door for something like that!
> 
> I am not being argumentative, nor am I challenging your convictions, but am just thinking out loud.


 
I hear you, and appreciate these questions. I do not believe that the offering can be *entirely* secret, even in the days of the Apostle Paul, who wrote of a collection (1 Cor. 16.1-2) This presupposes an organization for collection, and persons to do the collecting. Certainly in other cultures the argument would be stronger for not having the offering as a part of public worship in the middle of the service--what chaos! Eggs and fruit, and forget about that goat! He doesn't fit in the basket! 

I believe the point is that we ought to use some sanctified sense as we approach this matter. If we believe, as I do, that the offering is private worship, then we make it as private as circumstances will allow. If as others believe it belongs in the worship service, then they will have judgments to make on the manner of procedure (WCF 1.6) I have made the case above for it being a private act. So, at CCRPC, we have a box in the back. No fanfare, no offertory, etc. If one is paying attention, one will see, throughout the day, folks placing their offerings in the box. For our part, we pray together in the Pastoral Prayer in each Lord's Day AM service, using the outline of the Lord's Prayer, that the Lord would make us a thankful people for His abundant care over us, and that we wold not rob Him, and that we would further exercise generosity above the tithe.


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## KMK (Aug 17, 2007)

Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for the kind words Todd. I appreciate your summary of your position. It gives me much on which to meditate.
> ...



I am sure your congregation is thankful for having such a dedicated and thoughtful pastor. (If they are not, I will come out and tell them that they better be!) Your use of the word fanfare made me laugh because of the imagery it evoked of a couple of herald trumpets up front blowing their brains out to announce the offering. 

I appreciate your summary of your position, are there any other more exhaustive resources that you recommend?


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