# Gospel ministry to illegal immigrants: Conflict?



## Puritan Sailor

How is a Christian to go about this? At what point do we draw the line with obeying God verses obeying men when ministering to illegal immigrants. We all have a calling to share the gospel and this includes sharing with illegal immigrants. Yet we are called to obey the just laws of our land. I don't see anything necessarily unjust with a nation limiting immigration. So perhaps we could discuss this. I personally am thinking that we don't even look for someone's immigration status. We just share the gospel and minister to them because they need it. 

But what happens when we find out their illegal status? What is a Christian or the Church to do? Anyone with first hand experience in this issue? I would particularly like to hear from pastors and elders.


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## VictorBravo

Puritan Sailor said:


> How is a Christian to go about this? At what point do we draw the line with obeying God verses obeying men when ministering to illegal immigrants. We all have a calling to share the gospel and this includes sharing with illegal immigrants. Yet we are called to obey the just laws of our land. I don't see anything necessarily unjust with a nation limiting immigration. So perhaps we could discuss this. I personally am thinking that we don't even look for someone's immigration status. We just share the gospel and minister to them because they need it.
> 
> But what happens when we find out their illegal status? What is a Christian or the Church to do? Anyone with first hand experience in this issue? I would particularly like to hear from pastors and elders.



Two things: You have not been given authority as a magistrate to enforce the law, and the law does not require you to report their status, so your decision to not report them is not an actual conflict.

Second, in most states there is a legal privilege related to ministerial counseling. This means that you, if you are acting as a minister, are not breaking any laws by withholding the information. This privilege is not absolute, for instance, if someone confesses that he is running a child prostitution ring, or is planning violence, the privilege usually does not apply.

Of course, I would expect part of your counsel would be to exhort a person in illegal status to become legal or otherwise obey the laws of the land.


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## Bandguy

For what it's worth,

I don't, personally, see a conflict between witnessing to illegals and following the law. It might not be too seeker sensitive, but it would be the right thing to do. Witness to them and then report them if they refuse to obey the law.


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## Herald

I am in general agreement with Vic. I would minister to illegal aliens with no strings attached. I would not, however, provide protection from the authorities or help the illegal alien escape justice.


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## Theoretical

victorbravo said:


> Two things: You have not been given authority as a magistrate to enforce the law, and the law does not require you to report their status, so your decision to not report them is not an actual conflict.
> 
> Second, in most states there is a legal privilege related to ministerial counseling. This means that you, if you are acting as a minister, are not breaking any laws by withholding the information. This privilege is not absolute, for instance, if someone confesses that he is running a child prostitution ring, or is planning violence, the privilege usually does not apply.
> 
> Of course, I would expect part of your counsel would be to exhort a person in illegal status to become legal or otherwise obey the laws of the land.





BaptistInCrisis said:


> I am in general agreement with Vic. I would minister to illegal aliens with no strings attached. I would not, however, provide protection from the authorities or help the illegal alien escape justice.



 That seems like a wise and reasonable balance.


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## Puritan Sailor

Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?


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## Davidius

I suppose if you were to turn them in the the prison ministry would be able to rightfully handle them.


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## Bandguy

Puritan Sailor said:


> Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?



If Jose is truly converted, he will not want to live in open rebellion of the law. I would encourage him to repent of his lawlessness and take steps to become a legal immigrant. Not only is Jose, in open rebellion to the law of the land, but also to the law of God. He is also, BTW, enabling the employer to continue his oppression of other illegals and legal citizens of this nation by allowing him to take jobs away from legal citizens who he would have to pay more and afford them the same civil rights as others by paying illegals way less than what he should and treating them like slaves. If Jose is so self-centered that he is willing to stay silent and allow this to happen, then he needs to repent and get right with God.


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## Herald

Puritan Sailor said:


> Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?



I would inform Jose that he has been dealt with unjustly by his employer, but he is breaking the law by being here illegally. I would counsel Jose to find an immigration attorney and arrange to turn himself in to the authorities. I would not turn Jose over to the authorities myself, at least not initially. It would depend on Jose's actions. I certainly would not aid Jose in his continuing to hide his illegal status in the United States.


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## Pergamum

"You shall not oppress a resident alien;. you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 23.9)

‘For the Lord your God is God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.’ (Dr 10:17-18)

‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.’ (Lv 19:33-34 cf Dt 10:19)



Why have a missionary opportunity in our very midst - we need not even go anywhere..they are coming to us!!!


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## calgal

Bandguy said:


> If Jose is truly converted, he will not want to live in open rebellion of the law. I would encourage him to repent of his lawlessness and take steps to become a legal immigrant. Not only is Jose, in open rebellion to the law of the land, but also to the law of God. He is also, BTW, enabling the employer to continue his oppression of other illegals and legal citizens of this nation by allowing him to take jobs away from legal citizens who he would have to pay more and afford them the same civil rights as others by paying illegals way less than what he should and treating them like slaves. If Jose is so self-centered that he is willing to stay silent and allow this to happen, then he needs to repent and get right with God.



 If Jose has been truly converted, he would want to live and walk with integrity.


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## Pergamum

Sanctification is progressive, it takes years to give up some sins (if this be a sin)..and the "sins" which feed one's poor family back home would probably be the last ones to go....


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## Puritan Sailor

Yes, the issues are not as simple as we would like to paint them are they?


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## Herald

trevorjohnson said:


> "You shall not oppress a resident alien;. you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 23.9)
> 
> ‘For the Lord your God is God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.’ (Dr 10:17-18)
> 
> ‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.’ (Lv 19:33-34 cf Dt 10:19)
> 
> 
> Why have a missionary opportunity in our very midst - we need not even go anywhere..they are coming to us!!!



Trevor, with all due respect, the aliens you cite in are not the same type of aliens we are facing today. National borders were easily crossed in the ancient world. Aliens were allowed to settle in the land of Israel. The aliens we are facing today are breaking the established law of the land. We are to obey the authorities over us, are we not? Illegal aliens are just that, illegal. They are breaking the law.

That said, I agree they are a missions opportunity. I do not believe we should actively seek to turn illegal aliens in to the I.N.S. But if an illegal alien confides in us that they are illegal, we have a obligation to appeal to their conscience. If they are a believer they should do the right thing.


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## Pergamum

My calling is not political. 

If a US citizen came to me asking about salvation I wouldn't ask him if he had any unpaid parking tickets and, oh yeah, go and pay those first before I give you the bread of life. 


I would minister to him and let Ceasar take care of Ceasar's realm. 

I have no obligation to report him, I would probably pursue a don't ask don't tell policy and I would not shrink from ministering to him. If he asked I would give him my opinion. There are plenty of legal non-US citizens and they look the same as illegals....why would I pry?

Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.

It is also illegal in muslim countries to preach the Gospel to Muslims...are we sinning to break that law? the civil realm only goes so far.


Aliens back then usually belonged to neighboring tribes who, if in great enough numbers, would try to conquer your land by force and often did. Times were even rougher back then and yet Israel was told to be hospitable.



I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.


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## py3ak

Good posting, Trevor.


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## etexas

trevorjohnson said:


> My calling is not political.
> 
> If a US citizen came to me asking about salvation I wouldn't ask him if he had any unpaid parking tickets and, oh yeah, go and pay those first before I give you the bread of life.
> 
> 
> I would minister to him and let Ceasar take care of Ceasar's realm.
> 
> I have no obligation to report him, I would probably pursue a don't ask don't tell policy and I would not shrink from ministering to him. If he asked I would give him my opinion. There are plenty of legal non-US citizens and they look the same as illegals....why would I pry?
> 
> Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.
> 
> It is also illegal in muslim countries to preach the Gospel to Muslims...are we sinning to break that law? the civil realm only goes so far.
> 
> 
> Aliens back then usually belonged to neighboring tribes who, if in great enough numbers, would try to conquer your land by force and often did. Times were even rougher back then and yet Israel was told to be hospitable.
> 
> 
> 
> I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.


 I agree, I will obey the laws of Christ first. Our goverment takes our tax dollars to go after illegals, so let Caesar handle that aspect. I am not border patrol. I preach the Gospel. Grace and Peace


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## Davidius

All of that sounds very inspiring and very spiritual, but what if any other kind of "fugitive" were to come to you? Would you report a murder suspect?

The "don't ask don't tell" policy sounds good to me, but that's different from "don't need to ask, already know (that you are a criminal)."


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## etexas

I live in Texas......if I spent all my time reporting illegals I would not have time to breathe.


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## SolaGratia

*Malachi*

For those who know the Lord,

Defrauding labores of their legal wages, isn't just a legal matter it is SPIRITUAL MATTER. Oppressing the vulnerable, commiting injustice against those who have no power to protect themselves, all of these things that the Lord mentions here are SINS. Don't FOOL YOURSELF or let yourself be FOOL, America! Oops,I mean Christians.

-"Love your neighbor as your self" that includes Illegal Immigrates.


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## Herald

> Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.



And families in the United States are not trying to better their situation? Consider this fact: the millions of illegal aliens in the United States drive up the cost of social programs, including health care. Illegal aliens depress wages, especially in border states. If illegals immigrated legally employers would have to pay American workers more, this improving the economic situation of many of the minimum wage earners in our country. The cost to the US tax payer is enormous. Add to the fact that having so many illegals in this country makes it easier for terrorists to hide among their number. These terrorists are bent on destroying this nation. While the opportunity-seeking illegal alien may not be responsible for terrorism, the presence of millions of illegals _*does*_ threaten this nation. 

Trevor, please undestand my words. I am not saying we should not show illegals the love of Christ by presenting to them the gospel. We should. I am not advocating Christian vigilantes who round up illegals and turn them over to the I.N.S. But if we find out they are illegals, we have a responsibility before God to encourage them to do the right thing. Consider this:

*Matthew 22:19-21* 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." 

*Romans 13:1-7* Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience ' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. 

Citizens of this country _and_ illegal aliens have a responsibility to pay taxes. Illegals don't pay federal income or state taxes. They are breaking the established law and violating scripture. We are to obey the ruling authorities, so long as they are not commanding us to violate scripture. I don't believe asking illegal aliens to do the right thing is violating scripture.

Summary: proclaim the gospel to all. If we come into contact with illegals, call on them to do that right things, for this pleases God. If the don't I may not personally hand them over to the authorities, but I will not offer them assistance in maintaining their secrecy.


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## SRoper

I am involved in a ministry that reaches immigrants. I don't ask them if they have their papers in order; that's not my concern. Frankly, if a law interferes with the free proclamation of the gospel the law should go. While it may not have been Trevor's intention, I believe that the scripture that he cited above strongly suggests that current immigration policy is unjust. Deporting an immigrant because he doesn't have some piece of paper is not treating him "as one of your native-born."


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## Herald

I find this thread amazing. I am getting the feeling that some believe it is okay to pick what scriptures to obey and which ones not to obey.


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## Herald

SRoper said:


> I am involved in a ministry that reaches immigrants. I don't ask them if they have their papers in order; that's not my concern. Frankly, if a law interferes with the free proclamation of the gospel the law should go. While it may not have been Trevor's intention, I believe that the scripture that he cited above strongly suggests that current immigration policy is unjust. Deporting an immigrant because he doesn't have some piece of paper is not treating him "as one of your native-born."



Scott - I believe deporting legal immigrants is wrong. Deporting illegal immigrants is just. My family (on my mothers sides) saved five years wages in order to immigrate from Sicily. They came here legally. 

btw thanks be to God for your ministry to illegals. Continue to minister to them as God gives opportunity. I don't want anyone in this thread to misconstrue my words and suggest I do not have compassion for illegals. I do, for the cause of Christ and His kingdom.


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## Pergamum

If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern. 

Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.

Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.


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## Puritan Sailor

trevorjohnson said:


> I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.



This has become a major concern for me about the Church in America. Too often we look at ourselves as Americans first rather than Christians first. So when it comes to an issue of illegal immigration, we think first as American citizens and law enforcement, rather than an opportunity to spread the gospel. I'm not trying to argue against the idea of law enforcement and obeying the magistrate, just expose the gut reactions of some American Christians, and how that indicates a misplaced priority perhaps in their hearts. We could argue the same thing with the Iraq War. Do you think of it first as a Christian and how it will affect the global Church? Or first as an American and how it affects your home? (Don't make this a war thread PLEASE! It's just another illustration). That's the kind of discussion I was hoping to provoke with this thread.


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## Herald

trevorjohnson said:


> If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern.
> 
> Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.
> 
> Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.



Trevor, I'm in Maryland, not Texas so your first paragraph is moot. 

I disagree with your second paragraph. Your previous post cited illegals coming here to better their situation. Is it moral to better your situation at the expense of others? I think not. Regarding the gospel being our first priority, we are not in disagreement. I thought I made that clear in previous posts.

We're not talking about 1,000 other things. We are talking specficially about illegals. I'm not on a witch hunt for illegals. I wouldn't even ask a person is they are legal. But what if the person tells us? That was the point of the OP.


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## Davidius

BaptistInCrisis said:


> And families in the United States are not trying to better their situation? Consider this fact: the millions of illegal aliens in the United States drive up the cost of social programs, including health care. Illegal aliens depress wages, especially in border states. If illegals immigrated legally employers would have to pay American workers more, this improving the economic situation of many of the minimum wage earners in our country. The cost to the US tax payer is enormous. Add to the fact that having so many illegals in this country makes it easier for terrorists to hide among their number. These terrorists are bent on destroying this nation. While the opportunity-seeking illegal alien may not be responsible for terrorism, the presence of millions of illegals _*does*_ threaten this nation.
> 
> Trevor, please undestand my words. I am not saying we should not show illegals the love of Christ by presenting to them the gospel. We should. I am not advocating Christian vigilantes who round up illegals and turn them over to the I.N.S. But if we find out they are illegals, we have a responsibility before God to encourage them to do the right thing. Consider this:
> 
> *Matthew 22:19-21* 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
> 
> *Romans 13:1-7* Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience ' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
> 
> Citizens of this country _and_ illegal aliens have a responsibility to pay taxes. Illegals don't pay federal income or state taxes. They are breaking the established law and violating scripture. We are to obey the ruling authorities, so long as they are not commanding us to violate scripture. I don't believe asking illegal aliens to do the right thing is violating scripture.
> 
> Summary: proclaim the gospel to all. If we come into contact with illegals, call on them to do that right things, for this pleases God. If the don't I may not personally hand them over to the authorities, but I will not offer them assistance in maintaining their secrecy.


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## Davidius

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> All of that sounds very inspiring and very spiritual, but what if any other kind of "fugitive" were to come to you? Would you report a murder suspect?
> 
> The "don't ask don't tell" policy sounds good to me, but that's different from "don't need to ask, already know (that you are a criminal)."





BaptistInCrisis said:


> I find this thread amazing. I am getting the feeling that some believe it is okay to pick what scriptures to obey and which ones not to obey.





trevorjohnson said:


> If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern.
> 
> Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.
> 
> Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.





BaptistInCrisis said:


> Trevor, I'm in Maryland, not Texas so your first paragraph is moot.
> 
> I disagree with your second paragraph. Your previous post cited illegals coming here to better their situation. Is it moral to better your situation at the expense of others? I think not. Regarding the gospel being our first priority, we are not in disagreement. I thought I made that clear in previous posts.
> 
> We're not talking about 1,000 other things. We are talking specficially about illegals. I'm not on a witch hunt for illegals. I wouldn't even ask a person is they are legal. But what if the person tells us? That was the point of the OP.



Nobody seemed to care about what I said after posting twice, but I just want to say again that Bill is right.

The "witch hunt" accusation is just a straw man. Nobody's talking about going on a witch hunt for illegal immigrants. We're talking about how we should approach someone who we know to be living a life in opposition to law. Why would we deal with an illegal immigrant any differently than a thief or any other kind of person living in sin against God as well as the civil authorities?


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## Archlute

Illegals are knowingly in violation of the law of the land.

Ministers are appointed both to preach the Gospel, as well as to teach their people to live lawfully, as a good testimony of their faith.

It is the minister's _obligation_ that he instruct illegals in the church that they return to their country if they are to have a credible profession.

If a minister fails to do this, he is encouraging them to live as hypocrites, professing righteousness while at the same time living in sin and rebellion against a God appointed government.



Btw, illegals are not just a bunch of honest, hard working folk who are desperately trying to feed their families, yet are being oppressed by the "great whore" America. I have friends who work on border security teams, and they will let you know that illegals are a huge drug trafficking problem, as well as sustainers of child prostitution. The crime statistics down here in SoCal are also telling. The LA Times ran a report last year that set forth a few of these statistics:


95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens. 

Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers. (yes, I consider this the sin of theft)

The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border. 

The list could easily go on...



So, yes, it is the church's obligation to evangelize them, but it is also her obligation to then teach them how to live according to Christian ethics (regarding which some on this board seem to be a little hazy...).


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## Bandguy

trevorjohnson said:


> Sanctification is progressive, it takes years to give up some sins (if this be a sin)..and the "sins" which feed one's poor family back home would probably be the last ones to go....




I certainly do not mean to imply that sanctification is instant and complete at conversion. We all struggle with sin, myself included. The answer, however, is not to indulge those sins or even justify them. The answer is accountability.


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## Bandguy

Puritan Sailor said:


> Yes, the issues are not as simple as we would like to paint them are they?



The issue of right and wrong is that simple. Overcoming sin is not simple. It is a struggle everyday. Indulging and justifying sin, however is not the answer. If there is no struggle, only rationalization, then one might question their conversion.


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## Bandguy

trevorjohnson said:


> My calling is not political.
> 
> If a US citizen came to me asking about salvation I wouldn't ask him if he had any unpaid parking tickets and, oh yeah, go and pay those first before I give you the bread of life.
> 
> 
> I would minister to him and let Ceasar take care of Ceasar's realm.
> 
> I have no obligation to report him, I would probably pursue a don't ask don't tell policy and I would not shrink from ministering to him. If he asked I would give him my opinion. There are plenty of legal non-US citizens and they look the same as illegals....why would I pry?
> 
> Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.
> 
> It is also illegal in muslim countries to preach the Gospel to Muslims...are we sinning to break that law? the civil realm only goes so far.
> 
> 
> Aliens back then usually belonged to neighboring tribes who, if in great enough numbers, would try to conquer your land by force and often did. Times were even rougher back then and yet Israel was told to be hospitable.
> 
> 
> 
> I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.



1. Nobody said that we go out seeking the secret sins of those we witness to. However, if you know the person is committing a crime, as is the premise of this thread, and do nothing about it, you are, in my opinion, complicit in the rebellion and sin by indulging it and even justifying it.

2. Let Ceaser take care of Ceasar's realm. Let's see...I think this is the same kind of arrogant thinking the Catholic Church showed recently when they turned a blind eye to the criminal behavior in their own church. What a shame. Granted, being here illegally is not the same as raping a child. The indulgence of criminal behavior, however, is basically the same.

3. He is breaking the laws of our land by being here illegally. Why do you strive so hard to indulge and justify sin?

4. Preaching the Gospel is a command from a higher authority, namely God himself. Illegal immigration is not anywhere commanded by God. Why you are so committed to indulging and justifying sin that you would make a silly argument like this is way beyond me.

5. I fear your willingness to indulge and justify criminal, rebellious, and sinful behavior has led you to make several illogical and unbiblical arguments.


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## Bandguy

SolaGratia said:


> For those who know the Lord,
> 
> Defrauding labores of their legal wages, isn't just a legal matter it is SPIRITUAL MATTER. Oppressing the vulnerable, commiting injustice against those who have no power to protect themselves, all of these things that the Lord mentions here are SINS. Don't FOOL YOURSELF or let yourself be FOOL, America! Oops,I mean Christians.
> 
> -"Love your neighbor as your self" that includes Illegal Immigrates.


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## etexas

Bandguy said:


>


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## Bandguy

I follow Jesus said:


>




Of course, to put that Amen into context, it is not loving to indulge and justify sin which results in the oppression of not only him, but other illegal immigrants and legal immigrants and citizens and allows their employer to continue to oppress them.


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## VictorBravo

Puritan Sailor said:


> Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?



Personally, I'd take the case and sue the contractor, but I wouldn't lend money. I'd do it without any qualms at all. Jose has a cause of action, plain under the law. His status as an illegal alien does not change that. It is very unlikely that he'd be arrested for pursuing that claim. I see it quite often around here.

That sort of thing really burns me. 

Still, Jose is facing the consequences of flying under the law. I wouldn't help him continue to do that because that is a violation of our laws.


----------



## calgal

I would consider reporting the employer (and effective sanctions need to be applied to those who KNOWINGLY employ illegals) and would counsel with said alien to turn himself or herself in.  The employer's actions and blackmail of his employees would be a bigger concern than the immigration status of the workers in my opinion.


----------



## Davidius

Bandguy said:


> Of course, to put that Amen into context, it is not loving to indulge and justify sin which results in the oppression of not only him, but other illegal immigrants and legal immigrants and citizens and allows their employer to continue to oppress them.





Letting someone live in sin is not loving.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

I'm not sure why this is turning into an accusation of "Americans being against immigration" thread.

Can we not acknowledge, as Adam aptly put it, that a minister ought to require that a converted Christian obey the law so that he is not a hypocrite?

Leaving aside the issue of initial conversion - let's assume you know an American man that you have ministered to and is now a Christian.

Let's say this man (American) is cheating on his taxes and has for years because he believes that the tax code is unjust.

Do you confront the Brother according to Matthew 18 or not?

It seems it's easier to see than when you make the man pitiable.

I think the issue is certainly stickier if the man is not a brother in the Lord and you don't have a requirement to report him. Even if he's a brother now, you still don't have a requirement to report him.

Patrick's question is hard enough (I would probably personally confront the slavemaster). What about this question:

Shouldn't a Church take disciplinary steps if a brother remains impenitent of a sin? Isn't a brother sinning if, when taught about Romans 13, openly defies the law and refuses to obey God's Word? Perhaps they don't have to report him but shouldn't he eventually be put out of the Church if he refuses to repent?


----------



## etexas

Bandguy said:


> Of course, to put that Amen into context, it is not loving to indulge and justify sin which results in the oppression of not only him, but other illegal immigrants and legal immigrants and citizens and allows their employer to continue to oppress them.


Of course I can put your comment into context and say you do misrepresent me by saying Max endorses sin as a loving thing. Is that is what I am saying. Read all my post on this before you judge me!


----------



## Bandguy

I follow Jesus said:


> Of course I can put your comment into context and say you do misrepresent me by saying Max endorses sin as a loving thing. Is that is what I am saying. Read all my post on this before you judge me!



I was merely clarifying my position. If I implied something incorrectly in the process about what you believe, then I apologize and repent.


----------



## etexas

It's all cool man! I probably read little much into it! I am half-Irish! I have to watch my temper. Sorry if I was a bit touchy.


----------



## Pergamum

Bandguy:

I am sure you can see the difference in turning a blind eye to rapes and Jose stocking shelves illegally. 

I am not required to report him. My concerns are not politics. If the topic comes up I will mention his obligations. Christians need not be flag-waving Republicans who want all Mexicans kicked out. It is impossible to tell an illegal from an legal alien many times. If you know they are illegal, fine, tell them their responsibilities...but if you don't know, then why pry?

Yes, I agree with Rich when he mentions confronting the "slavemaster".. if you want to confront some sin, go to this fella.


Sin is sin, but some sin is more pitiable and there are more ameliorating factors. Because I see that there are nuances and that this is not merely black and white does not make me a justifier of any sin. I pity these lawbreakers and I can see why they do what they do.

Do you work with people who have unpaid parking tickets? This is illegal. Are you constantly confronting people due to their known sins...probably not. There are more important things..that is all I am saying. I endorse no sin.


----------



## Bandguy

trevorjohnson said:


> Bandguy:
> 
> I am sure you can see the difference in turning a blind eye to rapes and Jose stocking shelves illegally.
> 
> I am not required to report him. My concerns are not politics. If the topic comes up I will mention his obligations. Christians need not be flag-waving Republicans who want all Mexicans kicked out. It is impossible to tell an illegal from an legal alien many times. If you know they are illegal, fine, tell them their responsibilities...but if you don't know, then why pry?
> 
> Yes, I agree with Rich when he mentions confronting the "slavemaster".. if you want to confront some sin, go to this fella.
> 
> 
> Sin is sin, but some sin is more pitiable and there are more ameliorating factors. Because I see that there are nuances and that this is not merely black and white does not make me a justifier of any sin. I pity these lawbreakers and I can see why they do what they do.
> 
> Do you work with people who have unpaid parking tickets? This is illegal. Are you constantly confronting people due to their known sins...probably not. There are more important things..that is all I am saying. I endorse no sin.



Trevor,

Of course I see the difference. I even mentioned that in my post. My point is that they are both criminal behaviors and sin in the eyes of God. And ignoring either sin results in the oppression of not only the person in question, but many others as well.

As has been said many times before, nobody is going on a witch hunt to find out who is illegal and who is not. The premise of this thread, however, is that we already know that he is illegal because he has confided in us that his employer (slavemaster) is abusing him and blackmaling him. I don't know if I work with anyone who has unpaid parking tickets. Nobody has confided to me about that. If I know about a sin, especially of a Christian brother, I think we have an obligation to confront them,whether we are comfortable doing so or not. Otherwise, we end up with a situation similar to the SBC where there is no discipline and everyone looks the other way for the sake of "unity" and "peace". 

Finally, when you pity the sinner by understanding why they do what they do, then you are justifying their sin, whether you recognize it or not. They don't need to be pitied. They need to be rebuked and disciplined. Any other response to open sin is indulgence and justification.


----------



## kvanlaan

OK, try this one on for size: If this is about the concept of ministering to illegals, and not just about Mexicans in the US, what about the following? This sort of thing _happens all the time_ here. And, if it is different, then why?

A family of North Koreans makes it into China. They are cold, penniless, and in need of food and money. They are breaking the law both in N Korea and in China by their presence in China. What do you do? Do you minister to them and show Christian compassion, feeding them, clothing them, and try to get them to the S Korean embassy in Beijing? _Or_ do you turn them over to the civil magistrate (China) who will turn them over to the N Korean civil magistrate (Kim Jong Il) who will then imprison them (best case scenario) or use their entrails as playthings (more likely)? 

I don't know that I would want to stand in Judgment for bowing to the civil magistrate on this one.

Granted, Mexico is a different story. But if this thread is about a concept and not a specific scenario, I don't know that I can follow the prevelant line of reasoning. 

I am the son of a _legal_ immigrant to Canada. For the most part, I can't abide by the illegal Mexican immigration into the US. Why is it OK for Jose to walk across the border into the US while the equally desperate couple in Bosnia has to wait possibly years for form after form and pay dozens of processing fees? But surely we can't condemn the whole concept on the basis of what is going on in the Southern US.


----------



## Bandguy

kvanlaan said:


> OK, try this one on for size: If this is about the concept of ministering to illegals, and not just about Mexicans in the US, what about the following? This sort of thing _happens all the time_ here. And, if it is different, then why?
> 
> A family of North Koreans makes it into China. They are cold, penniless, and in need of food and money. They are breaking the law both in N Korea and in China by their presence in China. What do you do? Do you minister to them and show Christian compassion, feeding them, clothing them, and try to get them to the S Korean embassy in Beijing? _Or_ do you turn them over to the civil magistrate (China) who will turn them over to the N Korean civil magistrate (Kim Jong Il) who will then imprison them (best case scenario) or use their entrails as playthings (more likely)?
> 
> I don't know that I would want to stand in Judgment for bowing to the civil magistrate on this one.
> 
> Granted, Mexico is a different story. But if this thread is about a concept and not a specific scenario, I don't know that I can follow the prevelant line of reasoning.
> 
> I am the son of a _legal_ immigrant to Canada. For the most part, I can't abide by the illegal Mexican immigration into the US. Why is it OK for Jose to walk across the border into the US while the equally desperate couple in Bosnia has to wait possibly years for form after form and pay dozens of processing fees? But surely we can't condemn the whole concept on the basis of what is going on in the Southern US.



Question: What would happen to this fellow if he were turned over to the South Korean Embassy? In this case, I would think it would be immoral to turn him over to an oppressive regime where he would be unjustly tortured. Of course, like you said, this is not the case in America.


----------



## Pergamum

Bandguy:

Listen, I don't think we disagree a great deal here. All I am saying is that in am imperfect world you cannot rebuke every sin no matter how big or little or else you would never get a rest. 

We are not always obligated to give our two cents, to give our counsel or to give our rebuke. 

Gospel ministry focuses on Christ and not mainly on obedience to civil laws. 

I am not saying that you are wrong, but when given time-limited chances with sinners, more good could be done by speaking of Christ them on rebuking an illegal and urging him to turn himself in.

You are not wrong, I am merely arguing for keeping our priorities in line.


----------



## etexas

trevorjohnson said:


> Bandguy:
> 
> Listen, I don't think we disagree a great deal here. All I am saying is that in am imperfect world you cannot rebuke every sin no matter how big or little or else you would never get a rest.
> 
> We are not always obligated to give our two cents, to give our counsel or to give our rebuke.
> 
> Gospel ministry focuses on Christ and not mainly on obedience to civil laws.
> 
> I am not saying that you are wrong, but when given time-limited chances with sinners, more good could be done by speaking of Christ them on rebuking an illegal and urging him to turn himself in.
> 
> You are not wrong, I am merely arguing for keeping our priorities in line.


I agree. I, like you do not endorse sin! But as I stated here in Texas if I asked EVERY Hispanic to show me his card, I would not have time to sleep.


----------



## Bandguy

trevorjohnson said:


> Bandguy:
> 
> Listen, I don't think we disagree a great deal here. All I am saying is that in am imperfect world you cannot rebuke every sin no matter how big or little or else you would never get a rest.
> 
> We are not always obligated to give our two cents, to give our counsel or to give our rebuke.
> 
> Gospel ministry focuses on Christ and not mainly on obedience to civil laws.
> 
> I am not saying that you are wrong, but when given time-limited chances with sinners, more good could be done by speaking of Christ them on rebuking an illegal and urging him to turn himself in.
> 
> You are not wrong, I am merely arguing for keeping our priorities in line.




You are correct that the first prioroty should always be with the eternal: Seek ye first the Kingdom of God. In the example cited, however, we are dealing with someone who is a converted Christian confiding in you about his illegal status and his issues with his slavemaster's abuse. In this particular case, it seems clear to me that we are obligated to rebuke sin and use Biblical discipline to bring him to repentance and stand for justice.


----------



## Bandguy

I follow Jesus said:


> I agree. I, like you do not endorse sin! But as I stated here in Texas if I asked EVERY Hispanic to show me his card, I would not have time to sleep.



Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I have been saying by implying that I am on a witch-hunt to track down all illegal immigrants? I don't have to ask anyone to show me their card if they are confiding in me that they are here illlegally on their own. That is the premise of this thread. Where you came up with this fantasy of me going on a crusade to check all green cards, I am not sure. It is not, however, based on reality or in anything I have written.


----------



## etexas

I, Max Crim, humbly ask that the moderators close this thread. It is VERY hot button issue, I had to reconcile with a brother over the whole issue. I live in a boarder state. The issues are complex and not as cut and dried as we could wish. For the sake of civility and continued Reformed orthodox discourse I plee a closure. Grace and Peace.


----------



## RamistThomist

Puritan Sailor said:


> make this a war thread PLEASE!



Since you asked: Let me tell you what I think about the war! Ok, kidding.

Ditto to everything Vic said.


----------



## etexas

Main problem with this thread. It can never have ANY closure here! Look everyone got in their  But This involves a volatile combo: Politics,Theology,Philosophy,Law,Individual Conscience,State Versus Church,(oh , I can add about a dozen more factors) but in the end.......hurt feelings and no final satisfactory conclusion. No good can come from letting this go on forever. Just my


----------



## Semper Fidelis

kvanlaan said:


> OK, try this one on for size: If this is about the concept of ministering to illegals, and not just about Mexicans in the US, what about the following? This sort of thing _happens all the time_ here. And, if it is different, then why?
> 
> A family of North Koreans makes it into China. They are cold, penniless, and in need of food and money. They are breaking the law both in N Korea and in China by their presence in China. What do you do? Do you minister to them and show Christian compassion, feeding them, clothing them, and try to get them to the S Korean embassy in Beijing? _Or_ do you turn them over to the civil magistrate (China) who will turn them over to the N Korean civil magistrate (Kim Jong Il) who will then imprison them (best case scenario) or use their entrails as playthings (more likely)?
> 
> I don't know that I would want to stand in Judgment for bowing to the civil magistrate on this one.


Man, where are the ummin and thummim when you need them!


----------



## Semper Fidelis

I follow Jesus said:


> Main problem with this thread. It can never have ANY closure here! Look everyone got in their  But This involves a volatile combo: Politics,Theology,Philosophy,Law,Individual Conscience,State Versus Church,(oh , I can add about a dozen more factors) but in the end.......hurt feelings and no final satisfactory conclusion. No good can come from letting this go on forever. Just my



Max,

You'll probably want to stay clear of the Politics and Government forum. Things can get pretty heated here at times. I'm not condoning it but, by and large, many learn to be more patient and to sharpen their arguments.


----------



## etexas

SemperFideles said:


> Man, where are the ummin and thummim when you need them!


I had a really nice Ummin and Thummim set! I think I lost them during our last move! Itold my wife to double check!


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation. 

What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

puritancovenanter said:


> Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.
> 
> What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.



That is a good point. To flesh it out a bit more, though, Paul did end up having Onesimus return but he beseeched, Philemon, as a brother in the Lord, to release his legal claim to Onesimus. He called in a favor as the man who led him to the Lord as Philemon owed him all.

There is no question that the issue is one that requires a lot of wisdom and does not lend itself to pat answers.

Thanks for bringing up that example.


----------



## etexas

puritancovenanter said:


> Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.
> 
> What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.


That is good stuff! Complicated issue, no silver bullet, but for my part this a bit of scripture I had not thought to reflect on. Thank you!


----------



## kvanlaan

Rich, I have some Mormon neighbors that I think can hook me up with an ummin and thummim set real quick like.


----------



## kvanlaan

> Question: What would happen to this fellow if he were turned over to the South Korean Embassy? In this case, I would think it would be immoral to turn him over to an oppressive regime where he would be unjustly tortured. Of course, like you said, this is not the case in America.



When you bring them to the S Korean Embassy, they would be taken to S Korea and integrated into society (their ultimate destination anyway). The reason they go through China is that there are a few million landmines and some guys with guns sitting at the border so, strangely enough, China is the "safe" option.


----------



## etexas

kvanlaan said:


> Rich, I have some Mormon neighbors that I think can hook me up with an ummin and thummim set real quick like.


How much them Mormon sellin' ummin and thummin fer? Really? Do Mormond "have" that type of thing. I know they think they are to a degree  OT Israel......but.


----------



## kvanlaan

Well, it's what Joseph Smith found in the box with the gold tablets on the hilll in upstate New York where there was an epic battle in ancient America where thousands were killed around the time when Christ visited the US...etc. etc. etc.

So your average Mormon could not likely get their hands on 'em, BUT they're out there somewhere...maybe in SLC?


----------



## VictorBravo

I follow Jesus said:


> How much them Mormon sellin' ummin and thummin fer? Really? Do Mormond "have" that type of thing. I know they think they are to a degree  OT Israel......but.



Guys, ummim and thummin are a dime a dozen. I keep a set in my pickup. You are looking for a _urim_ and thummim.

As for the morman version, they are a bit pricier:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/HistoricalArchive/belchersmithdibble.htm


----------



## etexas

victorbravo said:


> Guys, ummim and thummin are a dime a dozen. I keep a set in my pickup. You are looking for a _urim_ and thummim.
> 
> As for the morman version, they are a bit pricier:
> 
> http://www.rickgrunder.com/HistoricalArchive/belchersmithdibble.htm


Hey Vic. If I spell it different are they cheaper are more expensive??????


----------



## Puritan Sailor

puritancovenanter said:


> Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.
> 
> What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.



Excellent observation. Some great material for meditation upon this current topic. Thank you!  

Didn't the Romans have strict laws about run-away slaves too? I seem to remember something about that. The apostle Paul's treatment of Onesimus could probably further shed light on how a Christian should respond to a brother who is breaking the law (assuming it is a just law....).


----------



## Puritan Sailor

I follow Jesus said:


> Main problem with this thread. It can never have ANY closure here! Look everyone got in their  But This involves a volatile combo: Politics,Theology,Philosophy,Law,Individual Conscience,State Versus Church,(oh , I can add about a dozen more factors) but in the end.......hurt feelings and no final satisfactory conclusion. No good can come from letting this go on forever. Just my



No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron. 

Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.


----------



## Bandguy

puritancovenanter said:


> Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.
> 
> What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.



I think Rich answered it quite correctly when he mentions that Paul called in a favor, but did follow the law.


----------



## etexas

Puritan Sailor said:


> No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron.
> 
> Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.



You are right Patrick. It is the duty of Reformed Believers to reflect on these issues. Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.


----------



## Bandguy

Puritan Sailor said:


> No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron.
> 
> Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.




I don't need a study committee to figure this out. I sure hope you aren't seriously waiting with baited breath to figure out what we have known since the great commission. I am going to witness to the lost no matter who they are. If one of those people get saved, however, and come to me and confide that they are here illegally and being abused and blackmailed by their slavemaster while they lower the wages of honest, hard working Americans and legal immigrants who wait an average of 10-12 years to do things the right way and enable the slavemaster to abuse and blackmail other illegals, I am going to first rebuke the brother and encourage him to do the right thing, which would be to turn himself and his slavemaster in, repent, and apply to come legally. If they are not willing to do this, they are showing the selfishness of an unregenerate man and should be turned in along with the slavemaster. They are criminals, not honest, hard working folk.


----------



## Puritan Sailor

Bandguy said:


> I don't need a study committee to figure this out. I sure hope you aren't seriously waiting with baited breath to figure out what we have known since the great commission. I am going to witness to the lost no matter who they are. If one of those people get saved, however, and come to me and confide that they are here illegally and being abused and blackmailed by their slavemaster while they lower the wages of honest, hard working Americans and legal immigrants who wait an average of 10-12 years to do things the right way and enable the slavemaster to abuse and blackmail other illegals, I am going to first rebuke the brother and encourage him to do the right thing, which would be to turn himself and his slavemaster in, repent, and apply to come legally. If they are not willing to do this, they are showing the selfishness of an unregenerate man and should be turned in along with the slavemaster. They are criminals, not honest, hard working folk.



I'm not waiting with baited breath. I think the answer is pretty clear and agree with your summary in principle. But too often we stick our head in the sand, or unwittingly fall into the thinking of nationalism rather than confront these issues as Christians first. I think it is more of a daily battle to sanctify our thoughts. We all know what the Great Commission says. The question (at least for this issue) is, is the ideal of the great commission the first thing that comes to mind when addressing an issue like illegal immigration? Or is it first an American border control issue? What view takes priority in our daily conversation about the issue (especially in Church)? I think how one honestly answers that question may reveal some inner presuppositions that we haven't thought through. So I ask the question to make people more conscious of their default presuppositions so that they can refine them according to Scripture.


----------



## Bandguy

I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.


----------



## Davidius

Bandguy said:


> I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.




No one has said anything that resembles the nationalism/witch hunt strawman and at this point it's unfair and unnecessary to keep resurrecting it.


----------



## RamistThomist

Puritan Sailor said:


> . Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well.



Spanish is easier than Hebrew. Much easier. Spanish-speaking people talk fast, though, and that can be difficult. You have been living in the South for the past few years. While you may not realize it, you probably talk slower than you did in the past. Other than that, since yo uhave several languages under your belt, Spanish shouldnt be too hard.


----------



## Bandguy

Draught Horse said:


> Spanish is easier than Hebrew.



I guess it depends on the person because for me, Hebrew was a lot easier to learn than Spanish. As a matter of fact, after two years of Spanish in High School, I came out basically knowing the absolute essentials to survive:

Taco
Fajita
Nacho
Burrito  

Seriously, for me, Hebrew was very easy in comparison.


----------



## Puritan Sailor

Bandguy said:


> I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.




I'm speaking in general, not trying to point fingers at you. Relax brother. And nationalism is a problem in American churches. There are more people who read these threads than just those who post. My hope is that others think the issue through.


----------



## Puritan Sailor

Draught Horse said:


> Spanish is easier than Hebrew. Much easier. Spanish-speaking people talk fast, though, and that can be difficult. You have been living in the South for the past few years. While you may not realize it, you probably talk slower than you did in the past. Other than that, since yo uhave several languages under your belt, Spanish shouldnt be too hard.



I've actually been meeting with a Mexican missionary the last couple days. He has given me some pointers on how to learn the language quickly and be conversational in it within a few months. It's definitely easier than Hebrew.


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## RamistThomist

If you are italian (part of my ancestry), then all you need is "mas vino, eh?"

Has anyone heard the country-western song by Blaine Larson on learning Spanish: I don't know what she said, but I sure love the way that she said it."

Spanish is fun. German is fun, too, but it is hard. Hebrew was a nightmare. I suffered with you on that one.


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## MrMerlin777

Puritan Sailor said:


> I'm speaking in general, not trying to point fingers at you. Relax brother. And nationalism is a problem in American churches. There are more people who read these threads than just those who post. My hope is that others think the issue through.




This takes me back to a singular experience Trevor Johnson related awhile back. Somthing about a Church he was at that practically had a "worship" service to the American flag.

It's in this old thread. http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=17118&highlight=flags


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## Ivan

Puritan Sailor said:


> I've actually been meeting with a Mexican missionary the last couple days. He has given me some pointers on how to learn the language quickly and be conversational in it within a few months. It's definitely easier than Hebrew.



I'd like to hear about the pointers. I took Spanish in High School for a couple of years. Still remember some, but I'd like to be at least conversational. Believe it or not, we need associates who speak Spanish at Wal-Mart. It happens several times a deal.....in Wisconsin!!


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