# Forgiveness



## Scott Bushey (Mar 12, 2005)

I did a search and did not find anything covering this idea about forgiveness:

Nigel Lee says that the Christian is only under obligation to forgive if the one whom sinned against you repents.


Luk 17:3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 
Luk 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." 

Thoughts?


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## The Lamb (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> I did a search and did not find anything covering this idea about forgiveness:
> 
> Nigel Lee says that the Christian is only under obligation to forgive if the one whom sinned against you repents.
> ...



When Christ said from the cross, "Forgive them for they know not what they do" did He say this after they repented?


Or when Stephen said the same.


In His Grace


Joseph


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

If we are to harmonize Scripture... I think we should cast out and reject quarrelsome persons or scoffers (Prv. 22:10), after patience and several admonitions, we should cast them out (Titus 3:10) but if they seek forgiveness or repent than we should be reconciled to our brother irrespective of the number of wrongs (Luk 17:3-4; Eph 4:32).

From my experience, there are people that do not want to end the wrongs they perpetrate against you... we should forgive them and not let a root of bitterness creep in our heart, but it is probably best to heed proverbial wisdom and cast out such people (meaning we have nothing to do with them unless they seek reconciliation.)

In light of Luke 17:4, could we say forgiveness has more than one connotation? Sort of like temptation. For example, there are temptations that arise totally externally, and then there are temptations that come when we're drawn away and enticed by our own sinful desires. Christ never knew the later temptation.

Just my thoughts... I'm all ears.

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## heartoflesh (Mar 12, 2005)

Just my own thoughts here.... I don't think these passages are intended to be taken as implying circumstances where we should perhaps hold back forgiveness, until a certain condition is met, but to make sure we _do_ forgive in certain circumstances when we may not wish too. 

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Eph. 4:32 

That's a little more encompassing. I guess I say forgive another for Christ's sake above all else, not based on what they return to us in the form of repentance. God is going to be their judge, not us.

I dug up the following from M. Lloyd Jones, referring to Matt. 6:14....



> "What we have here is what we find so clearly taught in Matthew xviii, in the parable of the steward who would not forgive his underling although he had been forgiven by his master. It means that the proof that you and I are forgiven is that we forgive others. If we think that our sins are forgiven by God and we refuse to forgive somebody else, we are making a mistake; we have never been forgiven. The man who knows he has been forgiven, only in and through the shed blood of Christ, is a man who must forgive others. He cannot help himself. If we really know Christ as our Saviour our hearts are broken and cannot be hard, and we cannot refuse forgiveness. If you are refusing forgiveness to anybody I suggest that you have never been forgiven.
> 
> -Studies In The Sermon on the Mount, vol 2, pg. 75



[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Rick Larson]

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> Just my own thoughts here.... I don't think these passages are intended to be taken as implying circumstances where we should perhaps hold back forgiveness, until a certain condition is met, but to make sure we _do_ forgive in certain circumstances when we may not wish too.
> 
> "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Eph. 4:32
> ...



Good points... I see what you're saying... God is our judge... I can scarcely think of a significant number people that are geniunely quarrelsome and strident in my life... the 1-2 i can think of --we're genuinely problematic though, and not interested in reconciliation. 

Being reconciled to our brothers is paramount... and sometimes we have to take the initiative.

_Blessed are the peacemakers..._


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 12, 2005)

Scott:
The way you phrased the question is the same wording that Hank Hannegraff uses. He teaches this same thing, and adds: to forgive without the other person coming and asking you is making yourself more forgiving than God. God doesn't just forgive, a sinner asks for forgiveness and then God forgives.
He adds that one must always "stand WILLING to forgive".

To me this makes sense, in a way. I also like what others have said before me (above). In light of that, it may happen to in some way be dependent on the circumstances. For instance, if someone is continually sinning against you and is not repentant, maybe its best to not forgive until they do. This is not withholding forgiveness, for forgiveness was never sought!
But then if someone does not have the opportunity to ask, or it was a long time ago, or it is a very small matter, or there is an ongoing friendship/relationship that would make forgiveness "a given", then you forgive those things as a matter of course.
I would not take that, nor the Scriptures given above, to mean you MUST forgive everyone even if they are not repentant and are your active enemies. If a mean, vindictive person was suing you and/or trying to destroy you and you had to defend yourself and your family, it would be ridiculous to think: "Gee, I'm over here being assaulted on every side and my family is in grave jeopardy, but I forgive this person." That does not give one the "energy" necessary to properly "do battle."


And in reference to Jesus at the cross: He may have been saying "forgive them because they know not what they do" meaning "they have no idea that they are REALLY CRUCIFYING THE SINLESS SON OF MAN!"


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## Preach (Mar 12, 2005)

Who was Jesus actually praying for? This gets into particular redemption. Think it through. If Christ's prayers are always heard (answered), then precisely who was He praying for?


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Preach_
> Who was Jesus actually praying for? This gets into particular redemption. Think it through. If Christ's prayers are always heard (answered), then precisely who was He praying for?



In John 17, he was very clearly praying for the elect... When he was on the Cross, I think _Forgive them Father for they know not what they do._ more aptly applies to all of those who delivered him, crucified him, and mocked him.

If all is forgiven of us, how can we not forgive our brother?

[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> ...God doesn't just forgive, a sinner asks for forgiveness and then God forgives.
> He adds that one must always "stand WILLING to forgive".



Very well surmised... that was part of thinking behind my first post. Christ says, "least you repent ye shall all likewise perish...." Action is needed on the part of those forgiven. 2 Timothy 2:24-25 implies that repentance is all of God, and sound theologians know we can only find true repentance after we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.


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## fredtgreco (Mar 12, 2005)

Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head, And the LORD will reward you. (cf. Rom 12:20)

[Edited on 3/12/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 12, 2005)

There is, I think, a distinction to be made between a heart that is willing to forgive though the other person has not asked for forgiveness and the reconciliation that comes about when both parties give and receive forgiveness. 

If withholding forgiveness because the other person has not asked for it leads thereby to grudge-bearing and you (speaking abstractly) are not willing go to that person to seek reconciliation, then there a log in your own eye that needs fixin'. Matthew 18, after all, put the onus of reconciliation on both parties from the very beginning.

We are to be charitable to our enemies, even when they don't see their need of repentance, just as God has been longsuffering with us (and indeed love covers a multitude of sins); but there is also a requirement for proper reconciliation between men that wrongs be confessed and forgiven if they cause a real breech, or are of a public nature, so that the matter can be closed, rather than swept under the rug.

[Edited on 3-13-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

Very well stated.... I might not have articulated my first point very well, but I hardly endorse withholding forgiveness or conditional forgiveness.


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## Puritanhead (Mar 12, 2005)

*Richard Kirkland, The Angel of Marye\'s Height*



> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink...



Speaking of Prv. 25:21-- there is a fascinating story of compassion so compelling, it's worth referencing in a sermon in my humble opinion... Here is a telling story from the late war between the states... Anybody, ever hear of Sergeant Richard Rowland Kirkland? He is the so called _Angel of Marye's Heights_ at the Battle of Fredericksburg. (This is a commercial site for Mort Kunstler's renowned prints, but it tells a fascinating story nonetheless.) 

Additionally, here is another poignant account of the incident from a SCV  web site and a local community web site in Fredericksburg, VA.

Having surveyed the battlefield personally, I see Kirkland's downhill leap over the stonewall as a veritable leap into the "valley of the shadow of death."

[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## pastorway (Mar 12, 2005)

Good post Andrew.

FN Lee is wrong on this one.

We are to be tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God has fogiven us. A believer must be ready to forgive even if the person who sinned against them is not repentant. Leave the rganting of repentance up to God and do your part by forgiving.

Note though, just because you forgive a person does not mean there is reconciliation. Reconciliation is dependent upon both parties doing what is required. The offender repents and asks forgiveness, the offended forgives. And it does not have to happen in that order.

When someone sins against us and comes to ask forgiveness, we should have already forgiven them!

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> Good post Andrew.
> 
> FN Lee is wrong on this one.
> ...



I agree with you Phillip. I told Tina that he was wrong on that one.


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## twogunfighter (Mar 15, 2005)

Ok, lets apply this to a real situation. There is a person that has greviously sinned against me. That person is not a Christian, and refuses to ask forgiveness. I have considered going to him and telling him that I have forgiven him but am concerned that if I do that will exacerbate the situation because if I tell him that I forgive him then I am defacto telling him that he was sinful. He would deny that any wrong was done despite it being public and numerous people other than me believe that it was wrong. I would forgive him instantly if he asked but if I go to him I will have to be honest and tell him that he in fact did wrong and that if our relationship is to be healed then he must acknowledge that and repent.


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## The Lamb (Mar 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by twogunfighter_
> Ok, lets apply this to a real situation. There is a person that has greviously sinned against me. That person is not a Christian, and refuses to ask forgiveness. I have considered going to him and telling him that I have forgiven him but am concerned that if I do that will exacerbate the situation because if I tell him that I forgive him then I am defacto telling him that he was sinful. He would deny that any wrong was done despite it being public and numerous people other than me believe that it was wrong. I would forgive him instantly if he asked but if I go to him I will have to be honest and tell him that he in fact did wrong and that if our relationship is to be healed then he must acknowledge that and repent.





Does Christ do this with His elect? Does He wait for us to repent before He forgives us? Or do we repent because we have been forgiven?


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