# I was challenged by an Arminian



## king of fools (Sep 4, 2005)

Recently an Arminian family member (who by the way hasn't gone to church in a year) challenged me to discuss why Reformed Theology is wrong. What followed was a three-hour face-to-face discussion that was pretty one sided in terms of emotional arguments (theirs) and clear-cut logical defense with scripture used to back-up each of about 15 points.

The next day, I was challenged to listen to a sermon by Jack Graham, the pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church, who preached against the doctrines of grace. I'll tell you what, I am very glad that I heard this message.

First off, it's been a while since I've heard this type of preaching before. When a pastor preaches at my church, typically there is at least a full chapter of scripture read before the message is delivered, this ensures proper context placement. Jack Graham basiclly ready about 2 verses, and then picked and chose all the way down to a 1/2 of a verse on the several points that he made that he gave scripture to backup.

Secondly, I took this sermon as fairly mean-spirited. He called reformed theology, "elitist theology", "arrogant theology" and a "perverted form of theology." Well, why the name calling Dr. Graham? My church, even when disagreeing with outright cults like the Mormons, doesn't resort to that sort of tactic. 

He knows that 90% of his congregation has no clue over the history of this debate. It does a great disservice to them to not let them know that there are people who have a disagreement with some of these points. Name calling is just an ad hominem attack against the character of the people that hold to a different view. 

Thirdly, his illustrations are quite often based on emotionally manipulating the listener. Twenty-six minutes into his servom, when discussing the reformed view of election, he said that if he were to go to a schoolyard, he would have to tell the children that, "you're chosen, but not you." "God loves you, but not you." 

I find this to be an outrageous and disgusting method of delivering a sermon. Not only does he state that reformed theology teaches that we should go out trying to figure out who is elect and who is not, he picked an example dealing with children in a playground as the setting to make his false points. 

Finally, he provides scripture to back-up his points in small bite-sized pieces. When trying to explain that God has given a measure of faith to everyone, he jumped right into the end of Romans 12:3 "...God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." He said this was proof that God has given all people (meaning all people who have ever lived) some amount of faith, thus getting rid of limited attonment. Well, Dr. Graham, what about the FIRST PART of Romans 12:3, where Paul writes "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, by to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a mesaure of faith." -- Clearly this passage is talking about believers, but Dr. Graham clearly failed to put scripture into context, he picked and chose what he would read so that he could make his point, even if the Bible didn't say what he wants it to say.

Anyhow, I can go on and on. The end result of this is that I am on a spiritual high and am very glad that I was given this challenge, becuase God has strengthened and sharpened me through this process.


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## ReformedWretch (Sep 4, 2005)

Speaking as a former Arminian I must tell you that the problem with the doctrines of grace is that they take away your mission.

Let me explain.

As an Arminian I never stopped trying to win others to Christ. It literally kept me awake at night. I spent 98% of my time trying to reach the lost. Part of me misses it! But, I about killed myself. I was so jaded, so tired, so exhausted that Iwas ready to sit in a corner every single day and worry about nothing but ME.

You see, Arminianism gives you great passion for evangelism, but this passion comes from believing you are doing something. It makes you "feel good". The doctrines of grace threatens to take away your purpose. I never wanted anything to do with "Calvinism" because God had given me the charge to "save people".

Finally, after years, and years,and years of this life style I fell apart. I was ready to give up, sit back, and wait on the rapture so those sinners could just get what they deserved!

Then I found this place. I relaized why I was exhausted and how I had ben misapplying the scriptures and it felt wonderful.

Just keep all of that in mind when dealing with stubborn arminians.


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## LarryCook (Sep 4, 2005)

Steve,

I heard the exact same sermon on TV from the First Baptist Church in Fort Mill, SC. The same tone, content, and error was present. The only additional item was this quote, in addressing the God of Holy Scripture, "I don't want a God like this."

praying for you,
Larry


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## Augusta (Sep 4, 2005)

Adam, thanks that was a very important insight into the minds of arminians. You are exactly right. They want to be "doers" of the word and they don't even realize what that means. They take it all onto themselves instead of having true faith in the Lord. I really needed to remember this for when I deal with my arminian friends and family.


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## Robin (Sep 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> Adam, thanks that was a very important insight into the minds of arminians. You are exactly right. They want to be "doers" of the word and they don't even realize what that means. They take it all onto themselves instead of having true faith in the Lord. I really needed to remember this for when I deal with my arminian friends and family.



 Traci....what an important cue to note... Arminian doctrine can give a false-sense of security, all the while leading a "professing Christian" to the way of death.

I've also noted, many former Arminians God is calling (over to be Reformed) are re-invigorating evangelism! Leaving Aminianism seems to be as costly as perhaps it was for the Jew to become Christian, in the early church. ?? How many friends, relatives and associations have we suffered loss and denouncement from? (Whole households torn apart.) 

Selah

Robin


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## ReformedWretch (Sep 4, 2005)

> How many friends, relatives and associations have we suffered loss and denouncement from? (Whole households torn apart.)



My family hasn't been too bad with my change. Their only real struggle is with my change in eschatology. My dispensational mom is a Calvinist!

However, I did loose an entire church body due to my switch. They are not my enemies, but they certainly don't act like friends too much any more either.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Speaking as a former Arminian I must tell you that the problem with the doctrines of grace is that they take away your mission.
> 
> Let me explain.
> ...



Funny I was the exact opposite with regards to evangelism... I was never an avowed Arminian, just confused before God illuminated the doctrines of grace fully to my sinful mind. Though, when I was more man-centered with my soteriological idea of us choosing God first, I guess I tacitly had such esteem that it was in people's final hands to choose Christ-- that I wasn't very passionate about evangelism. It's up to them to be moral enough and make the choice, right?


After, I started studying Scripture more intimately, it all hit me at once. When I ascented to the doctrines of grace, The doctrines revealed the depths of his grace and mercy and our condition as a sinner. I got more passionate about evangelism, and more concerned about the nature and presentation of evangelism message... it wasn't about eliciting a confession, and cheap bare-bones Gospel proclamation-- as your man-centered Arminian evangelists proclaim.

Let no one say Calvinism deadens evangelism, when we look at who some of the most influential evangelists in history... Edwards, Owen, Spurgeon, etc. etc. Even today, it is no misjudgment to say D.J. Kennedy stands over Falwell and Robertson for his evangelist ministry...


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## BrianBowman (Sep 4, 2005)

Here are the opening words from Chapter 1 of "Van Till's Apologetic" by the late Dr. Greg Bahnsen. I quote these words because as former Arminian-turned-Calvinist, I believe that when we are truly defending the faith when we confront Arminianism. Of course, the hapless Arminian believes the _reverse_ is true.

"Contentious disputes arise," wrote John Calvin, "from the fact that many think less honorably than they ought of the greatness of divine wisdom, and we are carried away by profane audacity." Calvin was commenting upon 1 Peter 3:15, a verse that has long been taken as the biblical charter for Christian apologetics. His words were not directed, however, at the "profance audacity" of the _unbeliever_ who challenges the existence of God or the veracity of His word, but rather at those Christians _apologists_ who fall short of recognizing and submitting to the superiority of God's wisdom as revealed in the pages of Scripture. Assuming for themselves the self-sufficiency and intellectual pride of autonomy, they launch into battle with antagonistic unbelievers (who are themselves marked by the same self-sufficiency and intellectual pride) with "audacity" that is "profane" -not befitting those who live under the lordship of Jesus Christ. The sorry result, as Calvin knew, is nothing but the kind of contentious disputes that should be shunned by servants of the Lord (2 Tim 2:23-36).

Friends, these pearls of wisdom can aptly be applied to our debate with Arminians - substituting "antangonistic unbelievers" with "Arminians". It's a pity when either side of this debate resorts to "profane audacity" in mounting its defense.

Brian

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## Scot (Sep 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by king of fools_
> When trying to explain that God has given a measure of faith to everyone, he jumped right into the end of Romans 12:3 "...God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."



This past Tuesday evening, I heard the exact same argument from an old friend who was desperately trying to disprove the doctrines of grace. You're right, the text is PLAINLY speaking of believers.


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## Anton Bruckner (Sep 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LarryCook_
> in addressing the God of Holy Scripture, "I don't want a God like this."
> 
> 
> Larry


man, isn't that idolatry. Remaking God into an image that is conducive to your psychological profile?


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