# Is it wise to attend a pagan worship service?



## Hamalas (Sep 19, 2011)

Hey y'all, I'm wondering what wisdom you can offer me about worship services. Basically my question is this: is it ok to attend a Roman Catholic Mass, an Eastern Orthodox worship service, or even a Muslim service? I'm not talking about attending regularly nor am I talking about missing the gathering of God's people to attend a non-christian service. But I am curious about what y'all think of attending such a gathering for experience/research/apologetics reasons. What say ye?


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## Covenant Joel (Sep 19, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Hey y'all, I'm wondering what wisdom you can offer me about worship services. Basically my question is this: is it ok to attend a Roman Catholic Mass, an Eastern Orthodox worship service, or even a Muslim service? I'm not talking about attending regularly nor am I talking about missing the gathering of God's people to attend a non-christian service. But I am curious about what y'all think of attending such a gathering for experience/research/apologetics reasons. What say ye?



For the purposes of research and understanding, I think it can be fine. Just be careful that you don't participate in any way. Contact someone beforehand, or arrive early, and explain why you are there. I have learned a lot about Mslm friends from observing how they worship.


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## pianoman (Sep 19, 2011)

The first thought that comes to me with this is the 3 Hebrew children in Daniel not bowing down to the image the Babylonians had set up. I think going to observe is fine as long as it's one time, and as long as, one does not partake in the actual sacraments such as communion, etc. It just seems going along with it seems to put one's approval to others. I have wondered about this myself many times. I've heard of two or three stories of exmuslims going into mosques and witnessing to muslims and the muslims coming to Christ. You cannot get much more awesome than that.


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## Scott1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm not convinced a Christian ought attend, intentionally a false religion service.

There might be some extraordinary reason, but in general- where is the biblical pattern of attending false religion corporate worship "to learn more about it"? How does one attend without participating? What is participation?

When one looks at avoiding the appearance of evil, how it might cause a weaker brother to stumble, the true demonic power that can deceive, it all militates against it.

We think we know our heart, our own weaknesses, but getting sucked in is a very real prospect, getting influenced even more so.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them. Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 19, 2011)

What takes prudence is the fact that when visiting non-Christian worship gatherings we can, either out of ignorance or trying to be inconspicuous or in an attempt to be respectful to the attendees/worshippers, inadvertantly do something that is participatory rather than merely observatory.

For instance... Though I'm almost certain they exist, I've never been into a synagogue where there _wasn't_ a polite request for visitoring men to don a yarmulke out of respect for their tradition.

If one complies have they inherently participated?

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Chaplainintraining said:


> I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. *I even took communion at some of them.* Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.



WHAT?!?! _PLEASE_ say you are kidding me. It is one thing to show respect. It is quite another to participate and engage in their worship with them. And yes, if you worship _with them_ in accordance with their practice... despite your protestations to the contrary you ARE approving of their religion. You cannot drink the cup of demons and the cup of the Lord.


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## SolaSaint (Sep 19, 2011)

I understand your desire to learn from them to be able to defend our faith by exposing their errors, but remember there is darkness in false worship. I have experienced much darkness and even depression from studying false religions. Be careful and make sure it is for the right reasons, not your own but God's.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

The Rabbi was giving Oreo's and wine. It sounded like a good combo.


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## Romans922 (Sep 19, 2011)

It may be wise to read Joshua 23, Judges 1 and prior to that reading Exodus 23:23-33; 34:11-16; Deut. 7:1-5.


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 19, 2011)

No, it is not wise, and may even be immoral. Each of God's commandments requires certain good actions as well as prohibiting some evil actions. As the Heidelberg Catechism explains from the Scriptures, we may not merely sit silently in the face of blasphemy and idolatry:



> Question 100. Is then the profaning of God's name, by swearing and cursing, so heinous a sin, that his wrath is kindled against those who do not endeavour, as much as in them lies, to prevent and forbid such cursing and swearing?
> 
> Answer: It undoubtedly is, (a) for there is no sin greater or more provoking to God, than the profaning of his name; and therefore he has commanded this sin to be punished with death. (b)
> 
> ...





> "Attendance at the Mass shows the link between doctrine and worship because it is a silent acquiescence in blasphemy that denies and subverts the very gospel itself."
> 
> ("Can a Protestant attend Mass?" from the Holdfast blog)



God's Law does not recognize a "neutral" position towards false worship.


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them.



I've been, but I'd never take communion at a Mass or a LDS service. In fact, last time I worshiped with dispensationalists, I realized in the middle of the service that they weren't rightly administering the sacrament, and put aside the cup. I'd urge you to expand your educational horizons after you get your degree.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

In which manner?


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## dudley (Sep 19, 2011)

Dearly Bought said:


> No, it is not wise, and may even be immoral. Each of God's commandments requires certain good actions as well as prohibiting some evil actions. As the Heidelberg Catechism explains from the Scriptures, we may not merely sit silently in the face of blasphemy and idolatry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen Bryan! I am an ex Roamn catholic and now a Reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian. It is more obvious to me that the Roman church teaching and worship of the “sacrifice” of the mass is incorrect and a denial of our salvation from the work of Christ alone on Calvary for our Justification and we are made righteous by that connection to Christ by our affirmation of faith; no merit of our own, nor is their anything we can do to merit our salvation.
I read in ………
Hebrews 7:23-24; Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 10:11-12; Hebrews 10:14; Hebrews 10:18 New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 2011 

Hebrews 7:23-24
23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 
Hebrews 7:27
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 
Hebrews 10:11-12
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 
Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 
Hebrews 10:18
18 And where these have been forgiven, “sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.” 

The above passages were very enlightening to me ( “sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.” )
as I read them this morning and I believe they give further evidence to me that the Protestant position of the Lords Supper as a memorial is correct as so many things in the Protestant fold and in the Presbyterian church are; which make good sense and have strengthened my faith and my understanding of what it means to be a Christian. To me I now believe as a Presbyterian the Lord's Supper is the sign and seal of eating and drinking in communion with the crucified and risen Lord. 
The Roman catholic mass is a denial of Christs one time sacrifice on Calvary and denies the vary act of salvation Christ made for all who place their faith in Him alone.It is an abomination, a balsphemy and a false form of worship!It is as John Knox said Idolatry!


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

I didn't say I had communion at Mass. That isn't allowed unless you are Catholic.


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I didn't say I had communion at Mass. That isn't allowed unless you are Catholic.



So the reason you don't is because they won't let you?

Your quote was that you have been to masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. And that you'd "_even_" taken communion at some of them.


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## nicnap (Sep 19, 2011)

Is it wise to taste poison (not enough to kill you, mind you) -- just to taste it? We have the truth; no need to immerse yourself in error. It will come to your door soon enough, and the better you know the truth, the more you'll be able to spot their error and defend your position to them.


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## dudley (Sep 19, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Is it wise to taste poison (not enough to kill you, mind you) -- just to taste it? We have the truth; no need to immerse yourself in error. It will come to your door soon enough, and the better you know the truth, the more you'll be able to spot their error and defend your position to them.



Amen brother , the Roman catholic bread wafer is poison to the truth!


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

SolaScriptura said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't say I had communion at Mass. That isn't allowed unless you are Catholic.
> ...



No, I don't worry about hypotheticals. I don't know what I would or would not do and am not going to waste my time attempting to determine what my hypothetical actions would be. 

I have partaken in Jewish services, Mormon services, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Free Methodist, Christian Church, non-denominational, community church, and even Pentecostal communion services (at least those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head).


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them. Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.



I'm having a hard time believing you are not playing devil's advocate or something here. When are you going to say, "Gotcha! I really had y'all going!"? A couple months ago you were saying Leonard Ravenhill is a heretic because he's Arminian. Now you are saying it's okay to take communion at Jewish and Mormon services. I'm confused. Has Boliver gone soft??



SolaScriptura said:


> You cannot drink the cup of demons and the cup of the Lord.



Ben is quoting from 1 Cor. 10 here. How do you understand this passage as it relates to taking communion at Jewish and Mormon services? I don't mean to pile on, but I'm really confused about where you're going with this, Boliver. Help us out.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Is it wise to taste poison (not enough to kill you, mind you) -- just to taste it? We have the truth; no need to immerse yourself in error. It will come to your door soon enough, and the better you know the truth, the more you'll be able to spot their error and defend your position to them.



If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots. 

The list can go on and on. Poisons have their purpose. So to learning from poisonous theology is beneficial. If it wasn't then why do we learn about various heresies in seminary and why are we examined on our knowledge of such heresies during ordination examination?


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

austinww said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them. Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.
> ...



Nope, I haven't gone soft. I would not attempt to learn theology from an Arminian. It is pointless. I am not going to a Mormon service to learn theology. That would be stupid. 

I am not playing devil's advocate either. There was quite the discussion on FB when I went to the Mormon service a few weeks back. Maybe someone here can vouch that conversation?


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 19, 2011)

Also relevant:


> Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
> A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word;518 particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;519 the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word;520 the administration and receiving of the sacraments;521 church government and discipline;522 the ministry and maintainance thereof;523 religious fasting;524 swearing by the name of God;525 and vowing unto him;526 as *also the disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship;*527* and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.*528
> 
> 527 Acts 17:16-17. Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Psalm 16:4. Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
> ...


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

But Boliver, with all due respect you are philosophizing here. How can a Christian partake from the communion rooted in darkness? I am not addressing your attendance, just your consumption. One does not have to partake from the eucharist, for example to observe and learn what they are doing.


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Nope, I haven't gone soft. I would not attempt to learn theology from an Arminian. It is pointless. I am not going to a Mormon service to learn theology. That would be stupid.
> 
> I am not playing devil's advocate either. There was quite the discussion on FB when I went to the Mormon service a few weeks back. Maybe someone here can vouch that conversation?



I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect. If this does not violate the spirit of 1 Cor. 10:21 ("Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."), I don't know what does.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

Again, one cannot partake of the Eucharist unless you are Catholic.


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Again, one cannot partake of the Eucharist unless you are Catholic.



Again, you mentioned masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services in your original comment. So we've ruled out masses. At which of the other two do you think it's all right to partake in communion?


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

Not so, Boliver. They don't screen and check your card at the "altar."


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

austinww said:


> I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.



Maybe you should reread my original. I said that those who I went with, know that I do not approve of their religion. In my eyes it is no different than wearing proper clothing in a Jewish or Muslim service. I am not approving of anything. I am simply eating a little cracker to help with my hunger cravings.

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caoclan said:


> Not so, Boliver. They don't screen and check your card at the "altar."



I said from the beginning about respect. How would it be respectful to attend with my Catholic friend who knows I am Presbyterian and pretend to be Catholic? I am not going to lie.


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.
> ...



Huh??? That comes across as a bit disingenuous. Did you grab a handful, if you were so hungry?


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## nicnap (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots.
> 
> The list can go on and on. Poisons have their purpose. So to learning from poisonous theology is beneficial. If it wasn't then why do we learn about various heresies in seminary and why are we examined on our knowledge of such heresies during ordination examination?



Being obtuse isn't the way to go on this one. You know precisely what was meant by the poison analogy. He can very well learn of those religions without participating in them. There are books abounding on the subject.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

If you believe that what is happening is not true worship, then it isn't true communion. It is just a cracker and juice (or Oreo and wine for the Rabbi).

It was just an attempt at humor. No need to get your blood pressure elevated.


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.
> ...



Maybe you should reread 1 Cor. 10 (and I say that without malice). Paul says eating meat sacrificed to idols would be nothing to a Christian, except that it means something to the person watching you do it, whether a pagan or a believer who might stumble. So Paul concludes "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?" (vv. 28-29).

So in other words, the cracker may have been nothing but sustenance to you. But in that context, around those people, "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils" (vv. 19-21).


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.
> ...




To partake of unChristian rites is to partake of them. To have _koinonia_ with them. Telling yourself "I'm just having a snack" is absolutely ridiculous. And it reflects an immature and unbiblical sujectivism that wants to pretend our voluntary actions and participation in the activities of a group are devoid of any meaning outside our private opinion. But the biblical model is: if you go to the Asherah pole and eat the raisin cakes with worshippers of Asherah, then you too have worshipped Asherah by your actions.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots.
> ...



Not my fault it was a bad analogy. I don't go to these services to "learn of those religions" so that aspect does not apply.


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 19, 2011)

One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> If you believe that what is happening is not true worship, then it isn't true communion.



Maybe not "true communion", but truly communing. (With what you are communing is another matter.)


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## nicnap (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Not my fault it was a bad analogy. I don't go to these services to "learn of those religions" so that aspect does not apply.



As it wasn't a bad analogy, but you are indeed, merely being obtuse ... you should take a bit of your own advice; as you have told others to "go back and reread" your original postings, I shall say the same to you. I did not specify what the poison was for, but was for "pleasure drinking" of an individual. It was to satisfy their curiosity -- tasting for tastings sake. So, stop being obtuse.


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

SolaScriptura said:


> One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.



Right, Paul said don't ask questions, meat is meat. But if you are told, "This has been sacrificed to idols," then you abstain for the others' sake because even though to you it is just meat, to the pagan it is meat sacrificed to devils, and the Christian must give testimony against the table of devils.


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## extolHIM (Sep 19, 2011)

I've went to a Mosque, a Jewish Synagogue, a Hindu Temple, a Sikh Temple, and a Buddist Temple and was a part of their services. Didn't actually join in whatsoever, just observed. It was for a World Religions course that I took at the Christian college I was going to. All the places knew in advance that our group was coming and even took time either before or after to talk with us, tell us about what they believe, and let us ask any questions we wanted to. Of course, our professor instructed us not to get argumentative, but to keep to a learning experience. Anyways...it was a very interesting and memorable experience in all those cases and I'm glad I got to experience it.


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## Covenant Joel (Sep 19, 2011)

Scott1 said:


> I'm not convinced a Christian ought attend, intentionally a false religion service.
> 
> There might be some extraordinary reason, but in general- where is the biblical pattern of attending false religion corporate worship "to learn more about it"? How does one attend without participating? What is participation?
> 
> ...



I would say a couple of things:

(1) If it violates one's conscience, he shouldn't go. I can understand that, and that's fine. But I think we ought to be careful about being dogmatic about all circumstances with this (so long as one isn't going there _to worship_, which is, in my opinion, definitely out of line).

(2) There does need to be clarity, honesty, and full disclosure when going. I.e., yes, I think it would be a huge problem to go to a worship service from any of the above-mentioned groups and participate. For Muslims, that would include sitting in their rows with them, kneeling, bowing, etc, when they do, reciting anything with them, etc. I would not do that, because that does seem to compromise our witness. However, if one is curious to understand how they worship, or if one wants an opportunity to meet some Muslims in order to develop relationships, I don't think it is inherently wrong to go, respectfully explain to whoever is leading that you are a Christian, that you have no desire to be a Muslim, but that you would like to understand what they believe, and so could you sit at the back/off to the side (the mosque here has a side viewing room for visitors) and simply observe them. And then if you really want to get to know them, invite the leader or one of the men you might meet out for coffee afterwards to discuss Islam and Christianity. 

Trust me, some great relationships and honest discussions can come out of this, most of which can lead to a great gospel witness. Would it be unwise to keep going back? I think so. I have seen some do that here, where they attend every week for a couple of years, and that does seem to me to compromise their witness. But to observe once or twice to understand them and to meet people seems to me at least to be an entirely different matter. But as I said, if your conscience is offended, or if you are otherwise wrongfully influenced by it, I would definitely avoid it and find another way to meet some Muslims so you can get to know them.


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 19, 2011)

austinww said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.
> ...



Exactly. While the context is as you observe, the principle of Paul's words has application to participating in pagan worship rites directly. (Again, you can't be in fellowship with both demons and Jesus.)


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I didn't say I had communion at Mass. That isn't allowed unless you are Catholic.



Since Jews don't celebrate the Lord's supper (and your description of the oreo cookie event sounds like a purely evil caricature of a means of grace - you should have walked out at that great offense), by process of elimination you must have had communion at a Mormon service. 

I do want to cut you a bit of slack, since I know where you go to seminary, but brother, acknowledge your sin and repent. Don't try to talk your way out of it.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

I gave a list of places I took communion at. No need to guess.

Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.


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## Jack K (Sep 19, 2011)

To answer the original question...



Hamalas said:


> Is it wise to attend a pagan worship service?



It might be wise, but only...

1. On rare occasions...

2. For a godly purpose (such as outreach or education)...

3. And if there's a way to attend, be gracious, and still not actually participate in the worship or appear to do so.

I'd say all three conditions must be met and then it _might_ be a wise thing. Still might not either. Personally, I've attended a Greek Orthodox service at the urging of Orthodox friends my wife and I were trying to reach out to and get to know better, but abstained from communion. We, of course, invited them to our church as well.


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

caoclan said:


> Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?



I'm sorry if this is poor form, quoting myself, but my post ended up as the last post on page 1. I would appreciate it if you addressed this, Boliver.


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## BertMulder (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I gave a list of places I took communion at. No need to guess.
> 
> Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.



Your behavior at non-christian services was blasphemous, and your conversation here is extremely disrespectful.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 19, 2011)

You know what? The scriptures are always right. 


> (1Co 10:19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
> 
> (1Co 10:20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
> 
> ...


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 19, 2011)

caoclan said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> > Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?
> ...



I am not committing spiritual adultery. That would imply that I actually worshiped someone other than God.


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## caoclan (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> > caoclan said:
> ...



Thank you for skating around another question. Why you are acting in this manner is beyond me, and probably many others.


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## au5t1n (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I am not committing spiritual adultery. That would imply that I actually worshiped someone other than God.



I doubt anyone thinks you would worship another God. However, Scripture is "the only rule of faith and obedience" (LC 2), so let's quit going in circles and approach this debate like good Reformed men: with exegesis. I and others have given an application of 1 Cor. 10 to the situation of taking communion at a pagan assembly, which you have encouraged as an acceptable practice. If you see a flaw in the logic behind our application of 1 Cor. 10, please show where you think our interpretation is lacking.


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 19, 2011)

And once more, the testimony of the Reformed confessions to the teaching of Scripture:


> But at the same time we admonish me to be on guard lest they reckon among things indifferent what are in fact not indifferent, as some are wont to regard the mass and the use of images in places of worship as things indifferent. "Indifferent," wrote Jerome to Augustine, "is that which is neither good nor bad, so that, whether you do it or not, you are neither just nor unjust." Therefore, *when things indifferent are wrested to the confession of faith, they cease to be free; as Paul shows that it is lawful for a man to eat flesh if someone does not remind him that it was offered to idols; for then it is unlawful, because he who eats it seems to approve idolatry by eating it (I Cor. 8:9 ff.; 10:25 ff.)*.
> (Second Helvetic Confession, Chapter XXVII)


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.


 I suppose that the DTS grads that I saw tolerating improper administration of the Lord's Supper *might* have learned it somewhere else. And that you might have learned improper attitudes about the sacrament somewhere else. But for someone to be as far along in their studies as you to have such a wrong approach does not speak well for the institution or some of its faculty. We are talking some fairly basic theology here. 




Chaplainintraining said:


> I gave a list of places I took communion at.



Which post is that?


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## Galatians220 (Sep 19, 2011)

We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.) We are not to dandle it upon our knees or give the evil that is false worship an extra head to count or sustenance in the form of seeming assent while we sit in its filthy halls. We deal the Lord of Glory, Who saved us by His precious blood, a vicious, undeserved and grievous blow on top of what He already spent for the joy of having us in heaven with Him, when we even consider attending a mass or other evil liturgical rite.

Some of us have willingly undergone ostracism, ridicule and shunning by family and friends because we refuse to attend services that pertain to the "life" (really spiritual death) that God raised us from when we were given saving faith. I have two more such services that I'll have to decline looming imminently in front of me, one being a niece's wedding. This is not a laughing matter to many here on this board. It is, however, small potatoes and really *absolutely nothing* compared to the eternal significance of either attending or not attending a pagan rite. Once you do it, you can't take it back, and if you don't do it, well, it would be better not to miss the blessing that might come from that.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them. Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.



I am going to have to agree that this practice is wrong Boliver. It isn't respectful to partake of something you don't approve of. In fact if you aren't a Christian and you partake of the Lord's Table vainly it will bring judgment upon you. If you go to someone else's service and partake of something that is sacred to them not giving due reverence in their understanding that is disrespectful. Plus, you are violating the scripture in 1 Corinthians 10 I believe where it states if you know it is something that is attached to pagan idolatry you are not to partake. 

Love ya buddy, But I sincerely believe you have done incorrectly here according to scripture and common sense. You might not have realized it but you were disrespectful on both accounts.


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## calgal (Sep 19, 2011)

Boliver & Ben:

Some BIG problems you are not aware of: 
1. Jews Don't.Do.Communion.EVER. In fact they would be LIVID for many reasons (google Blood Libel and Pogrom for a couple very good reasons this would enrage and insult any practicing or secular Jews) at any implication that they do so. The oreos and wine after the service are called an Oneg Shabbat and are lie coffee and cookies after church. 
2. It is one thing to attend a service for another religion or a wedding for a friend (a cousin had a lovely unitarian wedding DH and I attended a couple years ago and we went to more than 1 Catholic wedding mass) BUT taking communion is NOT acceptable. 
3. Not sure about Eastern Orthodox holy bread being ok (would consult with an elder before attending their church) but I would not touch the LDS wonderbread and water. Meat in front of idols indeed: LDS are tritheistic modern gnostics at best. 
4. Eastern Orthodox and Catholics have a closed communion.
5. Learning about other faiths is admirable. Going in ignorantly and blatantly insulting said faiths is something else entirely.


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## Scott1 (Sep 20, 2011)

There are several aspects that make this a difficult question, and difficult to propose that a believer can attend false worship to "learn more about it." For reasons to show respect for "the people," or even "so a Christian can witness better."

1) As the Westminster Standards summarize the doctrine of Scripture- God absolutely detests worship of other Gods. When one attends, sings, recites words, stands in respect, segregates according to its practice, it's hard to say one is not worshipping. What will an outsider think?

2) Scripture tells us we must love the sinner, hate the sin. 
One of the many things in the Christian life that is impossible to do, we must rely in faith on God's grace to do what we cannot do. Somehow we must separate the person from the (false) religion. If we identify a person by their religion, we can be getting into a trap of mixing the two. E.g. Is a person a "Moslem," or are they an individual created in the image of God, in sin, and given over to false worship of a false God?

If we accept them as their religion, aren't we showing respect for what is detestable, damnable and evil in God's sight?

If we accept them as a human being created in the image of God, lost in sin, then don't we try to not support or respect anything that shows disrespect to God and harms them?

I can imagine some extraordinary cases that might except some sort of nominal attendance, and know these lines can sometimes be blurred, e.g. attending a wedding ceremony, funeral, etc. but I just don't see a pattern in the Old or New Testament a pattern of God's people attending or engaging in false worship (again, maybe an extraordinary example of going in to preach).

This whole notion seems foreign to the Puritans as well.

It certainly seems contrary to the Confessions, summarizing the doctrine of Scripture.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 20, 2011)

Edward said:


> In fact, last time I worshiped with dispensationalists, I realized in the middle of the service that they weren't rightly administering the sacrament, and put aside the cup.



Out of curiosity, what did they do that constituted wrong administration?


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## Stargazer65 (Sep 20, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, last time I worshiped with dispensationalists, I realized in the middle of the service that they weren't rightly administering the sacrament, and put aside the cup.
> ...



Sounds like hyper-dispensationalism. Unlike mainstream dispensationalists, they may reject the cup, or the entire Lord's Supper altogether...as well as baptism.


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## J. Dean (Sep 20, 2011)

I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.


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## Scott1 (Sep 20, 2011)

*The color palate does not seem to be working so I'll try to bold for response, rejoinder: *



Covenant Joel said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not convinced a Christian ought attend, intentionally a false religion service.
> ...


.


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## Phil D. (Sep 20, 2011)

About a year ago I attended the funeral service of a friend who was Catholic, which included a funeral Mass. I did this to show respect for the family, but still felt like a fish out of water. I did not participate in the mass or even the corporate response portions of the service, since I wasn't familiar with the content and did not want to find myself affirming something false or blasphemous. 

So what would the brothers and fathers here on the PB think of a situation like this? Was I wrong in attending a Roman Catholic service at all? At the time I felt it was the right thing to do, but I am no longer so certain.


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## Scott1 (Sep 20, 2011)

Phil D. said:


> About a year ago I attended the funeral service of a friend who was Catholic, which included a funeral Mass. I did this to show respect for the family, but still felt like a fish out of water. I did not participate in the mass or even the corporate response portions of the service, since I wasn't familiar with the content and did not want to find myself affirming something false or blasphemous.
> 
> So what would the brothers and fathers here on the PB think of a situation like this? Was I wrong in attending a Roman Catholic service at all? At the time I felt it was the right thing to do, but I am no longer so certain.



This sounds like one of the possible exceptional situations, particularly if you knew the deceased and his family and friends. And, were right to abstain from the several practices. And right to be uncomfortable about it.

I had one similar circumstance, and God arranged it so I was given 10 minutes to clearly present the Gospel, relate it to the deceased's life, to 1,000 Roman Catholics! What was even more astounding was it got back to me later, the "priest" liked what I said.


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## au5t1n (Sep 20, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.



You mean where Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 10 NOT to eat meat sacrificed to idols if they were told that's what it was?


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## Ruby (Sep 20, 2011)

For other ex-Roman Catholics, how do you handle marriages and deaths when nuptual and requiem masses are involved? especially with close famly members? No communion of course, but do you attend?


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## Stargazer65 (Sep 20, 2011)

Ruby said:


> For other ex-Roman Catholics, how do you handle marriages and deaths when nuptual and requiem masses are involved? especially with close famly members? No communion of course, but do you attend?



I'm ex-RC so I have RC family. We attend an occasional wedding or funeral. We aren't there to participate in a mass, we go to rejoice with or comfort other family members. These days half the people in attendance at a Catholic wedding or funeral don't participate in the mass either.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Sep 20, 2011)

Given the huge population of Catholics here on the Coast, it is not unusual for me to feel obligated to attend a couple of RC funerals a year. I don't "participate" in the mass, or intinction (Honestly, they don't seem to be real picky about screening non-Catholics, not that I would even think about it), shake off the dust when its over, and go on with life.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 20, 2011)

austinww said:


> J. Dean said:
> 
> 
> > I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.
> ...



I believe the τις in verse 28 refers to a weaker believer. Paul is saying that he should not make a practice of eating the meat for the weaker brother's conscience.


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## Galatians220 (Sep 20, 2011)

My father died in 2003, a lifelong, self-professed atheist. He was a baptized Catholic and a generally mean individual who attended church only as my mother made him do it. When I was converted in 1995, he told me - as he had so many times over the course of my life - that I was "stupid to believe in God." I tried to attend his funeral, but, with the open casket at the back of the church and the priest saying, "As ****'s parents presented him for baptism as an infant and as he then became a child of God, so we return him to his heavenly father," I got suddenly severely nauseous. This was about a minute into the funeral. My husband whispered to me, "You've had enough, haven't you? Let's go." We left and sat in the vestibule for the rest of the requiem mass, out of earshot of the whole thing. Now there are to be weddings and funerals of family members and friends' parents, respectively. I will not sit through a "Scripture service" (held the night before an actual funeral) as the rosary is always recited in those things, nor will I attend a nuptial mass, even for a family member. I intend to make an appearance at the church and then slip out the side door when the mass starts, rejoining the family hopefully before the "priest" says, "The new Mr. and Mrs. ********!" I hope no one notices but if they do, too bad. I'll, uh, "slurp it up."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hamalas (Sep 20, 2011)

Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:

1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition. 

The words that have already been spoken are wise ones, I will *not* be participating in the liturgy, communion, or worship of these bodies but simply observing. As such, I would probably let the "church" know in advance who I am and why I am coming.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 20, 2011)

Josh,

I do appreciate your words of caution. They come across as well thought out and sincere.


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## Scott1 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:
> 
> 1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)
> 
> ...



Ben, there is plenty of food for thought here, and you are to be commended for inquiry here- this can be difficult in light of our calling.

One final two cents worth,
consider the difference between "observing" and "participating," from the true God's standpoint.

And also, new media allowing one to research without "going."

Blessings.


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## M21195 (Sep 20, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots.
> ...



Roger that! I don't have to shoot myself in the leg to find out if it hurts


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## elnwood (Sep 20, 2011)

Galatians220 said:


> We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.)



This is actually a KJV mistranslation. εἴδους is best translated in context "every form of evil" (NASB, HCSB, ESV, NKJV) or "every kind of evil" (NIV). It doesn't mean to abstain from anything that appears to be evil.

I agree with most of you in that we ought not take communion in churches which do not preach a true gospel.

I am curious, though: Did Paul and the other Apostles participate in the Jewish worship services when they preached in the synagogues?


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## au5t1n (Sep 20, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Galatians220 said:
> 
> 
> > We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.)
> ...



That used to be a legitimate use of the word "appearance," so it was not technically a mistranslation. In fact, we sometimes use it similarly today, whenever we use appearance in a way that means occurence, i.e. not a literal visual appearance.

Judaism as it exists today has nothing to do with the Jewish worship in Christ's time. It was invented long after. However, the synagogues had not rejected Christ when Paul visited them. When they rejected Christ, Paul would start a church elsewhere. I have heard my pastor (Rev. Todd Ruddell) say if the synagogue in a given city had received Paul's message, it would have become the church in that city, albeit allowing Gentiles full participation.


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## Edward (Sep 20, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> Out of curiosity, what did they do that constituted wrong administration?



The folks administering the sacrament were not ordained. Table wasn't fenced properly, etc.


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:
> 
> 1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)
> 
> ...



Ben, I strongly urge you to forgo even attendance upon this false worship. As I mentioned previously, God's Law is not neutral with regard to idolatry and blasphemy. There is a positive requirement that we must disapprove, detest, and oppose all false worship. Please, I ask others to present Scriptural arguments for tolerant attendance. Can anyone present a Biblical commendation of anyone who attended upon false worship? The only reason for which godly Israelites drew near to false worship was to destroy the false altars and Asherah poles.

From a personal standpoint, I know that I can have the sinful tendency to want to approach such things as a "neutral" observer to satisfy my curiosity. I cannot speak from any moral high ground since I have indeed shamefully attended upon Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Mormon false worship in the past with silent tolerance. It is certainly true that such attendance will break down relational barriers with adherents of these faiths. However, it is at the cost of the truth and honoring God. As a fellow struggling sinner, I plead with you to cultivate a holy abhorrence of idolatry and blasphemy such that you may find your spirit stirred within you as that of the Apostle Paul (Acts 17:16). If Nadab and Abihu were consumed with fire for their false worship, should we not learn to stand far clear from the like?


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## jennywigg (Sep 20, 2011)

Joshua said:


> Even if you hold sincerely to it, Friend, your seemingly defensive and smart alecky dismissal of others' warnings - especially from other ministers of the Gospel - is troublesome.



I think that's the part that disturbs me the most. The responses seem to be smart aleck and disrespecful and the spirit unteachable. Not good indications of what may or may not be going on in the heart.

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> I do appreciate your words of caution. They come across as well thought out and sincere.



I think everyone's comments come across as well thought out and sincere.  Wow...this whole thing is odd.


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## Andres (Sep 20, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:
> 
> 1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)
> 
> 2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition.



Ben, I think it's commendable that you desire to grow in knowledge of false religions that you might witness to others better, but why can't you just read some books on Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism to better educate yourself about their practices/beliefs?


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 20, 2011)

jennywigg said:


> I think everyone's comments come across as well thought out and sincere. Wow...this whole thing is odd.



What is odd is the idea that everyone needs a pat on the back and told a good job. 

Just because I spoke to Josh does not reveal my feelings one way or another about anything else that was said by everyone else.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 20, 2011)

This whole thread has aspects about it that leave me puzzled, as if some folk here are privy to some inside joke, to which I remain outside.

At any rate, Ben, I wonder why someone as young as you, someone who is a student, would be teaching, or perhaps I should say, would be asked to teach, a class on Eastern Orthodoxy. Should this not be taught by someone more mature (the pastor?) who is steeped in the faith, who has studied EO over the years, and can deal with this in a way edifying to the whole class? And a whole class on this? I would think that a few well-planned sessions would be able to convey what the class needs to hear. 

I was asked in my church several years ago to teach several lessons on Roman Catholicism, along the lines of its historical development and how we might best engage our RCC friends biblically and theologically. There was a convert from Catholicism who wanted to teach it, but the church wanted someone with signficant historical and theological experience to teach it. 

The best thing that most laymen should do with respect to EO and RCC (for example) is to know your own faith well--the Reformed faith, I mean--to be assured, and contented, in it and to read a bit about those other faiths or study a bit with someone who knows about them and who is solidly Reformed. I would never ask someone to teach on these in the church unless they were either seminary trained in the faith and in the error or something close to it. 

This is fire and those who handle it should be well trained in our faith, in signficant depth. And in how to identify, understand, and deal with error. I have known very capable men who have taken up the study of these things and have gone over to Rome (or Greece). One's motives have to be right, one's heart has to be right, and one's head has to be right. I regard this all as daunting and I am experienced in these areas. This is not for the weak. You should be very careful, brother. I would not want to see you go astray.

Peace,
Alan


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## Weston Stoler (Sep 21, 2011)

I am sorry if this is off topic (and it is) however did anyone have shawshank redemption pop into their minds when they said *obtuse*. like every time it was crazy!

Anyways, I would agree with the majority of this thread. I am in serious need of repentance daily so I am saying this in love, just repent dude. It will be okay. Pride will be hurt and God's will will be done.


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## Reformed Roman (Sep 21, 2011)

Am I one of the few who doesn't quite think Bolivar was on the wrong? 

Really what Bolivar brought about, and the points he brought about weren't even addressed in this thread at all. They were avoided and people just brought their own points, and then when Bolivar avoided them, they were bewildered by it.

Worship can be done at home, you can worship the true God in a Jewish service, or a Catholic service. I definitely don't advise attending these places, but still.

Communion is a specific thing you do according to the Word, for worship, yes. But he wasn't partaking in communion in these churches. Their communion was false, and really all they were doing was eating some bread and drinking some wine. Many things in this thread were assumed against Bolivar, like what people knew about him, why he was there, etc. 

Much of the things seen against Bolivar that might be seen as wrong I honestly see as just trying to have a sense of humor about things. It doesn't necessarily mean he was trying to come across as prideful or arrogant. Typing online, through emails, or really anything online can be deceiving, because you don't hear, or see a persons reaction, and you can't hear their true tone. 

I think Joshua gave great food for thought for Bolivar, and perhaps he was a little prideful and in sin during this discussion, however this shouldn't be assumed in my mind, and definitely not obvious. And I'm also not trying to give him an excuse if he was in sin. My point is perhaps he was trying to come across differently then he did. I know there have been times where I have been so prideful in responses, people came at me and I repented afterwards. There have been sometimes though that I was misunderstood, and people assumed many things and beat me down when it wasn't the case. 

But pertaining to the topic, Everything we do is worship. We are around people worshipping themselves everyday. We are around people disgracing God every day. Being around them during their worship service is no different. Elijah had people sacrificing to their god right next to him. Now he was so close to their sacrifices and acts of worship yet he was right there and had his own act of worship to God. While this isn't necessarily a worship service, all a worship service is, is people coming together to glorify God through song and praise, and edify one another, along with God working through His Word, preaching, sacraments, etc. But this is all worship in itself. And other things we do are worship. Church isn't just a building, it's us believers. 

Eating a few crackers and being in or near a worship service during it I wouldn't see as wrong. 1 Corinthians 10 is really based off not wanting another brother to stumble. And we don't know enough details about the situation to claim Bolivar did such.


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## au5t1n (Sep 21, 2011)

Zach, I think I was a little harsh on Boliver, and there were too many people on him at once so I should have let them handle it, but I believe you have missed the points we were making. It really did not require knowledge of who Boliver was with or why. 1 Cor. 10 does not just mention a weaker brother, but unbelievers also. That also isn't the only argument that's been put forth. Bryan Peters' points did not depend on 1 Cor. 10, for instance.

In any case, I think my friend Josh addressed it better than I did.


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## nicnap (Sep 21, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> But pertaining to the topic, Everything we do is worship. We are around people worshipping themselves everyday. We are around people disgracing God every day. Being around them during their worship service is no different.



Zach, there is a difference between daily, private worship (and all goings on, for that matter), and the stated, called, corporate worship of God (and in the case of the others -- Jews, Mormons, whatever else -- false god). This needs to be grasped in this discussion. To be in the midst of a stated, called, corporate worship service of a false god, and to partake in the sacraments of such is to partake in/give homage/credence to a false god (intentionally or not).


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## cajunhillbilly53 (Sep 21, 2011)

In Catholic churches one can actually go forward when they adminster the Mass and place your hands across your chest in an X. This indicates that you do not wish to partake of the elements, and the priest will then bless you in the name of the Trinity. That way you show respect but do not partake of the Mass. That from an Anglican.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 21, 2011)

I chose to address Ben in his OP (and follow-up comments) because he posed a serious question meriting serious discussion and answers.

My "I don't get the inside joke" remark had to do with Boliver's part in all of this, which I find baffling.

I don't know if Boliver is saying that he took part in a Jewish or Mormon service and if so what he did in those services. I can't really speak to him or his behavior because it is all unclear to me. Perhaps he was seeking simply, in some way, to be jocular. If so, it was lost on me (my attempts to do so are also sometimes abortive).

If he means that he went to, say, a Mormon service and partook sacramentally, I believe that would be clearly wrong, and I think, at least in some degree, some here have shown that. But this consideration has not been offered, as far as I can tell: we don't get to define what those who regard, wrongly, to be a holy rite, as not subject to the third commandment and something that we may treat as we please. This is like taking an oath not according to the _animus imponentis_, the mind of the imposing body (how those who are administering it see it), but in a jesuitical fashion, or like Newman did (see Hodge's _Church Polity_, p. 319). In other words, we can't properly partake of a pagan ritual and disavow guilt because it "meant nothing to us." 

The early church did not accept an excuse from those who gave way and burned incense to the genius of the emperor (or bought a document saying, falsely, that they had done so). Some who did alleged that it meant nothing to them because they were not really engaging in emperor worship. But the church replied that such burning meant emperor worship and was interpreted by all of society as that, both pagans and Christians, believing that to do so meant that one was not a Christian, willing instead to worship the emperor. Some food for thought.

Let me repeat: I do not assume that any of us know clearly what Boliver did, if he did anything at all, given his (playful?) evasiveness. And since this is not an ecclesiastical court, he does not have to answer our questions if he chooses not to. I think that it would be helpful for him to clear things up (I would not want things left in confusion) but that's up to him.

Peace,
Alan


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## jennywigg (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't see anyone is wanting a pat on the back. You missed my point. My point was that you were giving short, testy, nonchalant answers to everyone, then suddenly decided to accept one person's answer as valid, which seemed odd. And that was just my take. You're free to blow my take off, too.


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