# New Heavens during the time of the apostles



## Scott (May 7, 2007)

For those, who believe that the New Heavens and the New Earth began in some sense during the time of the apostles and is reflected in their writings, what texts would you use to support this? Please not I am not asking for preterist views that NT passages point toward the destruction of Jerssalem. I am asking for passages that dmeonstrate that the apostles themselvs understood that they were presently existing in the New Heavens / Earth.

Thanks


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## Robin (May 7, 2007)

Ephesians 2:5-7
...and *raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places *in Christ Jesus... (note the present tense)

Colossians 3:1-3
If then you *have been raised *with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

These are a few examples that the Apostles had a "already/not yet" eschatalogical grid. There's much more of course.

Please read the entire chapters to get context.

Blessings,

Robin


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## Robin (May 7, 2007)

PS...

Another wonderful example is Jesus' resurrection is the "reverse of the curse" the "firstfruits" - evidence that the "age to come" is already at work. 

Any time a miracle "intrudes" into man's time/space realm, it is a sign The Kingdom is coming. Use all the OT events, too.

The miracles and actions of God in human history are not arbitrary. They point to what is to come.

r.


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## Davidius (May 7, 2007)

Robin said:


> Ephesians 2:5-7
> ...and *raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places *in Christ Jesus... (note the present tense)



This is actually in the simple past tense (in English at least, I have no idea what the Greek verbs are). I suppose that helps your case even more.


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## Robin (May 7, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> This is actually in the simple past tense, denoting the prior completion of the action (in English at least, I have no idea what the Greek verbs are). I suppose that helps your case even more.



Thanks for the correction...you're right!

The point I hoped to make was the "Two Age" model actually does appear in the the language of Jesus, Paul and other Apostles. Much like the Trinity, evidence of this concept is throughout the entire Bible: hinted in the beginning and gets clearer/stronger Redemptive history progresses. Most importantly, the revelations are tied intimately to Covenant theology - so knowledge of what "covenant" means in Scripture is essential.

Another great example is at the Last Supper where Jesus says "this IS my body;...IS my blood..." Etc., in an act of covenant renewal/ratification on the anniversary of the former ratification ceremony. "IS" not "is a symbol" meaning Christ's real blood in a spiritual sense, as He is truly PRESENT living in the hearts of His people through the Holy Spirit. (mysterious and awesome!)

All to say, don't think it's a matter of how many verses pro/con. It is consistent and evident throughout the entire story of Redemption.

 

r.


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## Answerman (May 7, 2007)

See also Isaiah 65:17-25. Note the creation of a new heavens and earth in verse 17 yet death still occuring and sinners still present in verse 20.


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## tcalbrecht (May 7, 2007)

> But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (Heb. 12:22-24)



Seems to be related to Isaiah 65:



> 17 "For behold, *I create new heavens and a new earth*; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; *For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. *20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. *They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the Lord.*


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## Robin (May 7, 2007)

Yeah...these are great examples, too.

It also reminds me we need to be aware of the special qualities of prophecy: having multi-fulfillment; to warn God's people; and is not only about future telling. 

Daniel 7 as an example, fortells the coming of the Age to Come. Then in chapter 9, the Messiah; being cut-off; resurrection and ultimate vindication.

Again, keep reading in context but realize prophets frequently did not understand what they were seeing; what they were seeing had unclear chronological specifications; prophets were to simply report what they were given.

Pondering..... 

r.


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## VanVos (May 7, 2007)

And as a orthodox preterist we have 2 Pet 3:10-13. Although not all orthodox preterist interpret this as AD70. Read more here

VanVos


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## Scott (May 16, 2007)

> Ephesians 2:5-7
> ...and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus... (note the present tense)
> 
> Colossians 3:1-3
> ...


There is nothing here about being raised to the new heavens. Could be the same heavens that have always been around.


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