# Persecution by fellow brothers!?!



## shackleton (Jun 28, 2007)

I expect to ridiculed by non-believers, but not by my own Christian brethren. I am finding that when I mention that I take the Bible literally, believe in six days of creation, and now the worst of all... Calvinism, (OOOH NOOO!), that I am having to defend myself from what are supposed to be my brothers in Christ...what gives?


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## Gloria (Jun 28, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I expect to ridiculed by non-believers, but not by my own Christian brethren. I am finding that when I mention that I take the Bible literally, believe in six days of creation, and now the worst of all... Calvinism, (OOOH NOOO!), that I am having to defend myself from what are supposed to be my brothers in Christ...what gives?



Haha...Join the club.


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## polemic_turtle (Jun 28, 2007)

Eh? What's this? Aren't you looking for fundi-land, son? ;-)

It sounds as though you're keeping company with some liberal / "contemporary" Christians. Surely this isn't at your home church, right?


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## tellville (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't think there is a single person at my church who:

1. Believes in a 6-day creation,
2. Is a Calvinist

However, there are some, probably most, who take the Bible 'literally' (literally as the genre dictates). 

Maybe there are some 6-dayers on the Chinese side, but I highly doubt there are any Calvinists. 

However, there is no 'persecution' towards Calvinist or 6-day creation beliefs at my church and these views are considered well inside the realm of Orthodoxy.


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## Staphlobob (Jun 29, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I expect to ridiculed by non-believers, but not by my own Christian brethren. I am finding that when I mention that I take the Bible literally, believe in six days of creation, and now the worst of all... Calvinism, (OOOH NOOO!), that I am having to defend myself from what are supposed to be my brothers in Christ...what gives?



As an ex-ELCAer I empathize. There are people in my present congregation still healing from the brutal beating they took at the hands of those liberals because they actually _believed_ what the Bible says. 

However, your situation is somewhat different in that you are being beaten up on by "Christian brethren." Are you sure that's what they are? Given their ridicule of the 6 days of creation - and especially Calvinism - are you sure they don't really belong to the ELCA?


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## toddpedlar (Jun 29, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> As an ex-ELCAer I empathize. There are people in my present congregation still healing from the brutal beating they took at the hands of those liberals because they actually _believed_ what the Bible says.
> 
> However, your situation is somewhat different in that you are being beaten up on by "Christian brethren." Are you sure that's what they are? Given their ridicule of the 6 days of creation - and especially Calvinism - are you sure they don't really belong to the ELCA?



Hey Kevin -

Seems you might have two posters mixed up - the one who spoke of the lack of 6-day creationists and Calvinists at his church is at a Baptist church in Canada, while the OP was put forth by someone at a PCA church (I presume, since I know there's a "Redeemer" in Kansas in the PCA). 

As one who teaches at an ELCA college, believe me I know how much disdain is lofted towards Calvinists within the ranks of mainline Lutheranism... though here my Calvinism doesn't raise any more eyebrows than does my belief, say, in the plenary inspiration of Scripture...

Todd


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## Blueridge Believer (Jun 29, 2007)

I have a cousin who is a high school teacher and claims to be a believer. He is a calvinist who belonged to a PCA church. He left it for a somewhat liberal (in my opinion) SBC church a couple of years ago. He totally rejects a literal belief in the 1rst few chapters of Genesis. For the life of me I can not reconcile it. I can not believe that you can reject the literal account of creation and still lay calim to the name christian. I could be wrong and often am though. I know that if I were in a church where the literal 6 day creation story was not taught and believed by the pastor and staff I would reject them as apostate and move to another church. In my thinking if Genesis in not true, what other portions of the scripture are we free to reject. No offense to anyone here, just my


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## govols (Jun 29, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> I have a cousin who is a high school teacher and claims to be a believer. He is a calvinist who belonged to a PCA church. He left it for a somewhat liberal (in my opinion) SBC church a couple of years ago. He totally rejects a literal belief in the 1rst few chapters of Genesis. For the life of me I can not reconcile it. I can not believe that you can reject the literal account of creation and still lay calim to the name christian. I could be wrong and often am though. I know that if I were in a church where the literal 6 day creation story was not taught and believed by the pastor and staff I would reject them as apostate and move to another church. In my thinking if Genesis in not true, what other portions of the scripture are we free to reject. No offense to anyone here, just my



He didn't happen to teach Chemistry or Biology, did he?


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## govols (Jun 29, 2007)

govols said:


> He didn't happen to teach Chemistry or Biology, did he?



I ask b/c I have known two gents, one was a Chemistry teacher and the other a Biology teacher. Both believed in the DoG yet both believed that the order of creation should be reversed, the first 3 days would actually be the last 3 days, etc.


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## Blueridge Believer (Jun 29, 2007)

govols said:


> He didn't happen to teach Chemistry or Biology, did he?




I think he teaches math. I know its not chemistry or biology.


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## shackleton (Jun 29, 2007)

I wasn't referring to my church, (although my pastor does believe in long creation days), I was specifically referring to people I work with who are "Christians." One guy even compared my being a Calvinist to being in a cult!!! What is interesting is that another guy I talk to at work _is not_ a Christian, but still somehow heard that Calvinism was bad news, and stated,"Your not one of those, _Calvinists_ are you!?!


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## tellville (Jun 30, 2007)

I was a chaplain intern at a inner city ministry in Edmonton. My boss was a female (who they called pastor), and by the end of my stay there anybody with any semblance of conservative belief was purged. To give you an idea of how liberal it really was:

Not only was she a universalist, she believed that Jesus didn't even need to come and die for our sins for everyone to go to heaven. I was constantly forced to stop giving the gospel to clients. We weren't allowed to "force our beliefs" on anyone else and I was viewed as very naive and stupid. And yet this was suppose to be a Christian ministry? 

Actually, pretty much all the inner city ministries have been taken over by liberals in Edmonton. People sometimes accuse conservatives of caring more about doctrine and less about people, and that it is the liberals who truly live Christ's message of love. But at the ministry I was in all the conservatives were forced out by the liberals. Some of these people had been working at this church for years and years. It was truly a sad state of affairs.


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## CatechumenPatrick (Jun 30, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I expect to ridiculed by non-believers, but not by my own Christian brethren. I am finding that when I mention that I take the Bible literally, believe in six days of creation, and now the worst of all... Calvinism, (OOOH NOOO!), that I am having to defend myself from what are supposed to be my brothers in Christ...what gives?



I've had the same experiences. I live at a secular university's campus fellowship house during the Fall and Winter, and the only worldview or belief they show distinct hatred toward is Calvinism. Talk about Roman Catholicism, liberalism, fundamentalism, or even non-Christian worldviews, and even if by the rare chance they show disagreement, they still have a measure of respect, tolerance, or acceptance of them. But when it comes to Calvinism, especially predestination, they explode in disagreement, anger, even downright hatred. It has taught me the need to be a witness even to other Christians, the dire need to edify them and be edified. I suppose the main thing to remember is to not respond in an emotional outburst, but with patience and respect in an attempt to teach them or at least defend the faith. It is also good to remind myself that I was once (and probably often still am) in their position, with hatred toward any view that directly opposed my own man-centered worldview.


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## martyrologist (Jul 7, 2007)

Ignorance is the name of the game. Those persecutors have a whole construct in their minds of what a Calvinist is and believes. That construct was not formed, most likely, by research and dialogue. It was by listening to sermons and speeches by Hunt and Caner and that one preacher with the deep voice in Texas whose name escapes me.

I know because I was in the same boat. Until I actually sat down with the materials of Calvinists, written by their own hands, and listened to them present their beliefs and practices, I was a fellow ignorant persecutor. But oh how God has made a change. It took a long time and a lot of reading and study and praying and so on. Now look at me.

The intra-faith persecution reminds me of the reformation era, where you had Anabaptists being persecuted by Catholics and Protestants. Now that's some tough stuff there. But be strong, stay to your God led conscience, and educate them in love.


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