# Calvinist or Reformed?



## J. Dean (Mar 31, 2012)

At what point is somebody one but not the other? I've always understood them to be one and the same, but the impression I've gotten here is that there is a distinction between the two.

Obviously, being Reformed implies being Calvinist, and "Reformed" is not a title held by only one denomination. But what makes you say "so-and-so is Calvinist but not reformed"? Is it a crucial distinction or more of a secondary matters one?

Thanks!


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## rbcbob (Mar 31, 2012)

For some the distinction is intended to express that "Reformed" embraces more than "Calvinist". In such cases where this distinction is being made "Calvinist" may mean no more than "embraces God's sovereignty in salvation" but does not necessarily embrace a full orbed confessionalism. Furthermore "Reformed" in this distinction embraces reformed in church, in home and in heart.


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## Jake (Mar 31, 2012)

It depends on who you ask. The common distinction is that Calvinist means holding to the five points and Reformed is the full confessional system. However, this is not always the case. For example, in many Baptist circles I have run in, everyone says Reformed for meaning the five points without being confessional, as Calvinism is a dirty word in much of the SBC. So they both mean nothing without qualifiers.


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## KingofBashan (Mar 31, 2012)

As I understand things "being Calvinist" means holding to the five points laid down by the Synod of Dort, "being Reformed" means attempting to restructure our lives according to the whole word of God, specifically in line with the historic tradition. So a Calvinists can be a fundamentalist charismatic, but they certainly aren't Reformed. Reformed is a broader term than Calvinist and would include all areas of ecclesiology, covenant theology, theology proper, hermenteutical approach, etc etc, and not just the soteriological aspects of sin and grace. Of course, as a Reformed Baptist, I would want to point out that this doesn't meant "Reformed" is a denomination, or that every Christian seeking reformation agree on every detail within these categories.

Someone else might be able to articulate this point with greater clarity.

I find it somewhat humorous that given the above definition, Calvin himself was not a Calvinist but Reformed, since the Synod of Dort came years after his death.


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## Bill The Baptist (Mar 31, 2012)

I would agree with many of the above statements. John Macarthur would be Calvinist but not reformed.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Mar 31, 2012)

I believe Al Mohler would be Calvinist, but not Reformed as well, they way I understand "Reformed." I have always understood "Reformed" to mean: Calvinist + covenant theology + confessional.


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## John Bunyan (Mar 31, 2012)

and whats the difference between presbyterianism (as a denomination, not only a church policy) and reformed churches?


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## Rufus (Mar 31, 2012)

Equation: Calvinist + Covenant Theology + Confession of Faith = Reformed



> and whats the difference between presbyterianism (as a denomination, not only a church policy) and reformed churches?



Westministerian v.s. Continental Sabbath for one thing.


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## Gforce9 (Mar 31, 2012)

Someone here illustrated the point very well with a question: "How can one call themselves Reformed and then deny the Reformed Confessions?"


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## lynnie (Mar 31, 2012)

Good question.

I think it is best to use the word Calvinist if you are not confessional and hold to Calvin's view of the Sabbath (ie so fulfilled in Christ that we don't set apart the Lord's day). And despite the influence of Grudem and Piper in using the word Reformed for continuationists ( ie charismatics) - and I am one of them-it can be misleading to say you are Reformed when you believe in modern day non canonical prophecy and are speaking to a diehard cessationist. Deceptive almost, if you know what the word means to them.

A lot depends on your audience. Around a Calvary Chapelite I use the word Reformed because they have been exposed to such a butchered evil view of Calvinism. Talking to somebody from Westminster Seminary I would say I am Calvinist. With some people I use the words "the great doctrines of grace and God being sovereign". Or I say I am old fashioned like the great Reformation guys ( that usually goes over fine ).

Would you say you are gay- meaning happy- to somebody who would interpret it as sodomy? Of course not. Words change and you have to think of what it means to the people you are speaking to. Some people swear that Calvinism makes us total puppets with zero responsibility to obey. You have to be careful with your words around them because if you say you are Calvinist you misrepresent yourself. And I often cannot say I am charismatic even though I suppose I am, because I reject so much of Pentecostalism. ( I sometimes say I am Lloyd Jonesy or Vern Poythrossy and then I have to explain that!). 

Complicated subject, eh?


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## Peairtach (Apr 4, 2012)

Calvin wasn't as Calvinist as some make him out to be, as Spurgeon once said.



> Calvinism -1560s, from John Calvin (1509-1564), Protestant reformer. Alternative form Calvinian was in use in 1566. Generalized association with stern moral codes and predestination is attested since at least 1853. Related: Calvinist.



I don't think Calvin would be happy with this use of his name. Maybe we owe it to him to use the word "Reformed".


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## KMK (Apr 4, 2012)

Peairtach said:


> Calvin wasn't as Calvinist as some make him out to be, as Spurgeon once said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did Spurgeon really say that?


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## JS116 (Apr 4, 2012)

I agree with those who posted above. I think it's safe to say that one should only honestly and rightfully consider themselves Reformed ONLY if they hold to a historic confession of faith such as the ones required to subscribe to before joining this forum. Ex. Westminster Standards, LBC Original and LBC1689, 3 Forms of U, etc. If you have (1) a historical confessional heritage that firmly believes in the 5 solas, (2) doctrines of grace and (3) covenant theology, than you can be considered reformed. When one breaks away from any of those 3 you are no longer reformed but conformed.

Now on a another note, some would say Baptist's cannot be considered reformed, that I disagree with.I think the Baptist's could probably say the same for Presbyterians! What I mean is that the Baptist's, just as Presbyterians, have a historical confessional heritage that firmly believed in the 5 solas, doctrines of grace and covenant theology. Also from my understanding not all dutch reformed churches(correct me if im wrong) practice Presbyterianism, are they also "un-refomed" ? The answer would be no, because they have the same strong faithful confessional heritage that consists in the 3FU.


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## Jake (Apr 5, 2012)

Acts 29 churches, including some PCA churches, has the following as part of their basic statement of faith.

Fourth, we are Theologically Reformed

We believe that God created the heavens and the earth. We believe that God created man and woman in a state of sinless perfection with particular dignity as His image bearers on the earth. We believe that our first parents sinned against God and that everyone since is a sinner by nature and choice. Sin has totally affected all of creation including marring human image and likeness so that all of our being is stained by sin (e.g. reasoning, desires, and emotions). We believe that because all people have sinned and separated themselves from the Holy God that he is obligated to save no one from the just deserved punishments of hell. We also believe that God in His unparalleled love and mercy has chosen to elect some people for salvation. We believe that the salvation of the elect was predestined by God in eternity past. We believe that the salvation of the elect was accomplished by the sinless life, substitutionary atoning death, and literal physical resurrection of Jesus Christ in place of His people for their sins. We believe that the salvation of the elect, by God’s grace alone, shows forth in the ongoing repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ that leads to good works. We believe that God’s saving grace is ultimately irresistible and that God does soften even the hardest heart and save the worst of sinners according to His will. We believe that the gospel should be passionately and urgently proclaimed to all people so that all who believe may be saved through the preaching of God’s Word by the power of God’s Spirit. We believe that true Christians born again of God’s Spirit will be kept by God throughout their life, as evidenced by personal transformation that includes an ever-growing love of God the Father through God the Son by God the Spirit, love of brothers and sisters in the church, and love of lost neighbors in the culture. We believe that God is Lord over all of life and that there is nothing in life that is to be separated from God. We believe that the worship of God is the end for which people were created and that abiding joy is only to be found by delighting in God through all of life, including hardship and death which is gain.


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## Peairtach (Apr 5, 2012)

KMK said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > *Calvin wasn't as Calvinist as some make him out to be, *as Spurgeon once said.
> ...



Spurgeon said the bit in bold, not the other bits. I'd have to get the exact quote but it's in Spurgeon's, _Commenting and Commentaries_.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 5, 2012)

Here is an old blog post i had to update. We have discussed this a few times on the Puritanboard. Also read Matthews post on what it means to be Reformed.


http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/covenantal-baptists-reformed-historical-understanding-reformed-theology-316/

http://www.apuritansmind.com/covena...o-be-reformed-really-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/


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## Scott1 (Apr 5, 2012)

"Reformed Theology" is, at minimum, as Rufus stated:

Doctrines of grace ("Calvinism") + covenant theology + confession

A communion might have leadership that espouses "Calvinism" at particular point in time, but is not accountable for it by confessed theology (Confession). A minimalist "statement of beliefs" is not a Confession, which is a more complete systematic biblical theology based on the truths restored during the Protestant Reformation.

A Confession (of faith) is necessary because reformed theology holds that the unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement. This is related to having a "high view" of the church, which is accountable to the Word of God, and to the authority God has appointed for its benefit (Word, church officers).

Another aspect is that even the doctrines of grace have implications for covenant theology (vs. dispensationalism).

It took me a long time to understand, it is not easy truth, but "Calvinism" is not consistent with a dispensational framework of Scripture. (Read for example, _Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth_ , Gerstner)http://www.christianbook.com/wrongl...f-truth/john-gerstner/9780977851690/pd/851690

So, a communion such as Sovereign Grace Ministries might have leadership that presently espouses "Calvinism," but does not hold (or have clear) the covenant theology that is related to it. Further, they do not have a Confession that it is accountable to it. It may have a "Calvinist" soteriology, but it is not "reformed."

"Reformed" believes that believers are covenanted together to serve God in this world based on a confessed biblical theology. This relates to having a "high view" of the church, church discipline, etc. which are related concepts.

Many churches and some believers are quite rightly awed about understanding something of the "five points" of Calvinism, and how that relates to God's sovereignty. After the alternative views, that man initiates his salvation and is really at center, it is quite liberating to discover that God is, indeed, sovereign.

And we are utterly, totally, 100% dependent on Him for salvation (and everything else).

While that is very important, its not the whole picture, not even the complete basis for reformed theology which is, at least Calvinist + Covenant theology + Confession

"Reformed," after all refers to the confessed and accountable doctrines restored to the church during the Protestant Reformation.

It is not merely understanding the "five points" in isolation, important though those are.

An excellent resource on this subject, is _What is Reformed Theology?_ by RC Sproul.http://www.cepbookstore.com/p-3672-what-is-reformed-theology-un.aspx


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## C. M. Sheffield (Apr 6, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I have always understood "Reformed" to mean: Calvinist + covenant theology + confessional.



And I would add the Regulative Principle of Worship to your list and call it complete. It's hard to imagine defining the Reformed tradition apart from its principles of worship which were often at the center of their reforms and the controversies surrounding them.


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