# Dealing With Calvinists, and a Strange Closing Prayer



## Blue Tick (Sep 23, 2009)

"Make sure they understand the gospel" -- what is he talking about? 

Strange prayer??? 7:14




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GKDpC_taDk&feature=related]YouTube - Dealing With Calvinists, and a Strange Closing Prayer[/ame]


----------



## Ivan (Sep 23, 2009)

What's he talking about? After listening to him, I don't think he knows what he's talking about it, especially after hearing his prayer.


----------



## charliejunfan (Sep 23, 2009)

WOW! I guess we believe that one has to be a Calvinist to be saved, I wasn't aware that I thought this until I watched this video


----------



## Ivan (Sep 23, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> WOW! I guess we believe that one has to be a Calvinist to be saved, I wasn't aware that I thought this until I watched this video



LOL We'll now we know something about ourselves that we didn't know before!


----------



## Berean (Sep 23, 2009)

"for those who are unsaved but are Calvinists"?  I don't think he knows what he's talking about either. I wonder where he went to seminary.


----------



## Marrow Man (Sep 23, 2009)

He prays that no one would fall into the ditch of Calvinism nor Arminianism.

Why do so many Arminians deny that they are Arminians while using the same arguments as Arminians? I would dare say that classical Arminians probably had a better hold on the nature of original sin than do many of the contemporary variety.


----------



## Ivan (Sep 23, 2009)

Berean said:


> I wonder where he went to seminary.



From the church's website:



> Pastor-teacher Dennis Rokser came to trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior at the age of 18 through the faithful witness of some friends. Upon later attending Beacon Bible Church in Aurora, Minnesota, he was spiritually fed and grounded in the Word of God through the expository, grace-oriented bible-teaching of Pastor Leonard A. Radtke. Dennis was further prepared for the ministry by attending Appalachian Bible College in Bradley, West Virginia, along with graduate studies from Tyndale Theological Seminary.


----------



## CharlieJ (Sep 23, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> He prays that no one would fall into the ditch of Calvinism nor Arminianism.
> 
> Why do so many Arminians deny that they are Arminians while using the same arguments as Arminians? I would dare say that classical Arminians probably had a better hold on the nature of original sin than do many of the contemporary variety.



Well, many are right about declining the term Arminian. Calvinists have an annoying tendency to describe all conflicting ideas of the will as "Arminian," whether or not the appellation is accurate. Balthasar Hubmaier, an Anabaptist theologian, was anticipating many of the positions of modern evangelical theology before Arminius was born. Personally, I've stopped referring to most non-Calvinists as "Arminians" and instead call them "Semi-Pelagians," which is historically accurate.


----------



## Marrow Man (Sep 23, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> Personally, I've stopped referring to most non-Calvinists as "Arminians" and instead call them "Semi-Pelagians," which is historically accurate.



Good point. However, aren't semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism technically different from one another at some point along the spectrum?


----------



## Confessor (Sep 23, 2009)

I like to use the term free-willists and free-willism when people are not self-pronounced Arminians, because it stresses where the idolatry is located.


----------



## cih1355 (Sep 23, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I've stopped referring to most non-Calvinists as "Arminians" and instead call them "Semi-Pelagians," which is historically accurate.
> ...



Semi-Pelagianism teaches that man can come to Christ without God taking the initiative to draw him. Arminianism teaches that a person cannot come to Christ unless God takes the initiative to draw him. Arminianism teaches that the drawing of God is a necessary condition for man to come to Christ, but not a sufficient condition. In their view, the drawing of God does not guarantee that anyone will come to Christ. They believe that the drawing of God merely makes the person capable of coming to Christ.


----------



## charliejunfan (Sep 23, 2009)

I like to call them synergists because whether one is an arminian or a pelagian they are still synergistic in their theology


----------



## Confessor (Sep 23, 2009)

I do not think there is a cogent distinction to be made between semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/worthless-distinction-between-arminianism-semi-pelagianism-51447/


----------



## Michael Doyle (Sep 23, 2009)

I thought it funny that this is on their "what we believe" portion of their website:


> TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN
> 
> 
> 
> We believe that man was originally and directly created in the image of God, and that he fell through sin. We believe that God’s intention in the creation of man was that man should glorify God, enjoy God’s fellowship, live life in the will of God, and by this accomplish God’s purpose for man in the world (Isaiah 43:7; Colossians 1:16; Revelation 4:11). As a consequence of his sin, Adam was relationally separated from God in trespasses and sins, and he became subject to the power of the devil. We also believe that his spiritual death and total depravity of human nature has been transmitted to the entire human race of man, the Man Christ Jesus alone being excepted. Hence, every child of Adam is born into the world with a nature which not only possesses no spark of divine life, but is essentially and unchangeably bad apart from divine grace. Thus, man is a sinner by imputation, nature, and choice, and is guilty before God. Man has both dignity [He is created in the image of God] and depravity [He is corrupted in every part of his nature through the Fall] (Gen. 1:26; 2:17; 6:5; Psalm 14:1-3, 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9; John 3:6, 5:40, 6:53; Romans 3:10-19, 23, 5:12, 8:6-7; Eph. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 5:6; 1 John 3:8).



Followed by salvation is solely by God alone through grace alone...


----------



## CharlieJ (Sep 23, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I've stopped referring to most non-Calvinists as "Arminians" and instead call them "Semi-Pelagians," which is historically accurate.
> ...



Right. They are different. That's why I say semi-Pelagian instead of Arminian. The suggestions of "synergism" and "free-willers" are also very good, since they strike at the problem. Arminianism is a historically identifiable system of doctrine (not without variation), just like Calvinism. The belief in unconditional election, for example, does not make someone a Calvinist. Unconditional election is a belief shared by Augustine, Aquinas, Bradwardine, Wyclif, Hus, Gregory of Rimini, Staupitz, and (I think) Pascal. That does not make them Calvinists. In the same way, we shouldn't call people Arminians unless they buy the whole system. It's both offensive and inaccurate.

Ben, as a monergist, I agree with the main point of your post. On the other hand, there is usefulness in keeping the ideas distinct. From a Christian perspective, one can say that there are only two religions, God's (Christianity) and the Devil's (everything else). Even though that is true, it doesn't justify us calling Catholics Muslims or atheists Buddhists. There are distinct incarnations of error, and a Semi-Pelagian like Gabriel Biel arrives at and articulates his position quite differently than an Arminian like Wesley.


----------



## Blue Tick (Sep 23, 2009)

> "Make sure they understand the gospel" -- what is he talking about?
> 
> Strange prayer??? 7:14


The throne of man... The "Free Willer" montra... _God's precious gift to mankind is giving man free will..._ Actually God's precious gift to mankind is HIS SON Jesus Christ! Therefore, repent and believe the gospel!


----------



## Just1covenanter (Sep 23, 2009)

My favorite part, after his puzzling assertion that failing to adopt a Calvinistic theology results in a failure to "persevere in the faith," leaving them unregenerate and damned, is this one: "See, now we have a place in our understanding of the Bible for people to be saved and doctrinally screwed-up. But, I don't know that they really do." 

I can say that after three full years of seminary, this is news to me. I've never heard my professors deal anything but humbly and charitably with, ahem, non-Calvinists. I've always thought of them as slightly theologically off-center brothers in Christ, and so do most Calvinists I know.


----------



## SolaSaint (Sep 23, 2009)

I loved the part where he was stating how Calvinism is growing today with the likes of R C Sproul, John MacArthur and John Piper. Isn't it funny how he named (in my opinion) the three best expositors of scripture we have today. I felt like he was mentioning the likes of Joel Osteen, T D Jakes and Benny Hinn as we would consider false teaching today. I really started laughing, but I guess we should pray for this guy and the people he is corrupting.


----------



## Just1covenanter (Sep 24, 2009)

God grant that we might converse with our opponents like this:

A 250-yr-old Model: How Calvinist Simeon Related to Wesley :: Desiring God


----------

