# LDS, works of the law, and Romans



## martyrologist (May 13, 2005)

I dialogue with LDS members a lot online. I have been in a discussion on justification sola fide and what Paul has written in Romans. Now, they present that "works of the law" specifically refers to "works of the Law of Moses" and not works in general (for instance, Romans iii); in fact, believing is a work (and so on they say). So when the text says that no man is justified by works or works of the law, they agree because the law was fulfilled in or by Christ.

At this point they bring in James ii and say that justification is by faith and works. 

I am only presently dealing with the Romans passage. I let them know that if you want to bring into the discussion another passage and apply an interpretation of the new passage to the one we are presently dealing with, we will have to go to that passage, exegete the text and see what the text is actually saying first. But, Romans is clear enough in my view.

I am looking for how others would respond to this idea in Romans, that works (i.e. as is mentioned in Rom. iv.1-6) only speaks of works of the Law of Moses, which have been fulfilled, so we are left to be justified by our faith and works.

Thanks.


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## Larry Hughes (May 13, 2005)

Eddie,

Yep, they will pull out and twist James with the best of the legalist.

First, you might concentrate on what is mean't by "faith". That is so confused today. A simple way is replacing the term "faith" with "trust", due to "faiths" abused use today. Faith to many simply means believing in the facts yet not trusting or resting in them for one's self.

Second, maybe focus on the fact that "faith and trust" in another is completely and utterly self emptying for that which it trusts. That is by definition it is the exact antithesis of works. It is singular defined and finds it being by the object in which it "looks to" and "trust into". As soon as faith/trust ceases to fix upon its object, faith/trust cease to be. In this case the object is Christ Jesus. And for what does it trust entirely, singularly and absolutely into Christ Jesus? His fulfilling of the Law in our stead (paying our penatly for sin and giving us His righteousness).

Faith/trust cannot be a work since it trusts entirely into something alien to the one trusting. 

Thirdly, faith (trust) is so self emptying that faith does not even "look" or "see" itself. It never looks to itself for said trusting (that would make it a work). If faith/trust looks to anything but its object, Christ Jesus in His pure saving office, then we are no longer speaking of faith.

ldh


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## Puritanhead (Jul 25, 2005)

A Mormon girl once paid for my meal at a little French cafe while in Europe while I was with an American tour group in 2002... it was her "good deed for the day"... Yeah, I'm not above letting women pay for my food... it wasn't the last time. Our theological debate turned into the Mormon kids bashing the Trinity and affirming that Christ is just a "being."


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 25, 2005)

What would the antithesis be to works of the law? Romans 1 has a list that condemns. Also look at Titus 3:5.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> A Mormon girl once paid for my meal at a little French cafe while in Europe while I was with an American tour group in 2002... it was her "good deed for the day"... Yeah, I'm not above letting women pay for my food...



that's like Dwayne Tyler purposely letting his white friends what movies of slavery, so that they can pick up the lunch and dinner tab whenever they eat


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