# Marriage Covenant Cup?



## Coram Deo (Dec 3, 2007)

Apparently the Jews had a custom that proceeded with the following...

With the presence of two witnesses, The bride consents, a cup of wine is shared and finalized. Which represents a covenant being made and is so called a Covenant Cup since wine represents blood, etc.....

What do you all think of this?
What do you think of the concept?

I finding it interesting.....

So What Saith Ye?


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## JBaldwin (Dec 3, 2007)

I have a small book entitled "The Ancient Jewish Wedding" written by Jamie Lash, a messianic Jew, which has a few pages about the "Cup of the Covenant". The cup of the covenant was part of the engagement ceremony. The bride accepted the bridegroom's proposal, and this covenant was sealed with the cup of wine that they shared. Lash claims that the words Jesus spoke at the last passover He celebrated with His disciples (the institution of the Lord's Supper) were the same used in this ceremony. 

You can purchase a copy of this online here The Galilee Experience: The Ancient Jewish Wedding by Jamie Lash for $5.


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## Coram Deo (Dec 4, 2007)

So knowing what it represents... Wine represents blood and the sharing of the cup represents a sealing of a covenant, etc.. Should this be revived in Christian Marriage Ceremonies to show visibly what is taken place?


By the way, thanks for the link....


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 4, 2007)

thunaer said:


> So knowing what it represents... Wine represents blood and the sharing of the cup represents a sealing of a covenant, etc.. Should this be revived in Christian Marriage Ceremonies to show visibly what is taken place?
> 
> 
> By the way, thanks for the link....



How will adopting Jewish customs improve a Christian ceremony? Is there any biblical mandate for such an approach?

There is an obvious problem with trying to read the rabbinic tradition back into the NT accounts, that is, the tradition was not codified until long after the NT was given. Edersheim points out in _The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah_ that there was much fluidity in the practices utilizing the so-called "oral tradition" along side the Torah. And we know from Jesus’ own testimony that the rabbis didn’t always get it right.

I also checked Edersheim and he does not mention marriage ceremonies or any "cup of the covenant" wrt the activities of the Last Supper. Having watched Neil and Jamie Lash for some time with their "Jewish Jewels" program, I’m not always convinced that their rabbinic overlay of the NT gives us an accurate explanation for what we read. Like many messianics, they tend to filter their interpretation though 2000 years of Jewish history, practices, and theology. If the rabbis were wrong, even just a small bit, from the beginning, image how that error will magnify through 2000 years.


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## Coram Deo (Dec 4, 2007)

I would agree that adopting jewish custom is not always right nor to follow modern critics (I have learned this much more in the past year).. 

I guess I was thinking that since Marriage is a covenant, How do we represent that and how do we make it appear to be a covenant to the world.. It seems to be that our society and the world at large as lost sight of the covenant aspect to Marriage. They might hear it once in awhile but it goes in one ear and out the other. Since Wine has always represented blood which goes along with Covenant making it does show a very important aspect of Marriage.. That it is a covenant that can not be broken accept for Adultery and that it is sealed by this token which represents the joining of a couple into one body or one flesh. They share this cup together as one flesh. Wine is used to represent blood in the New Covenant when Christ said "This is my blood" shed for you to represent ourselves joining the one body of Christ within the Eucharist.

By the way, with what I said above, I see more biblical approach to what I written above then 99% of what takes place in Christians ceremonies today.. 





tcalbrecht said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > So knowing what it represents... Wine represents blood and the sharing of the cup represents a sealing of a covenant, etc.. Should this be revived in Christian Marriage Ceremonies to show visibly what is taken place?
> ...


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 4, 2007)

thunaer said:


> I would agree that adopting jewish custom is not always right nor to follow modern critics (I have learned this much more in the past year)..
> 
> I guess I was thinking that since Marriage is a covenant, How do we represent that and how do we make it appear to be a covenant to the world..



I don’t see how this can be accomplished without inventing the equivalent of a Christian Talmud. 

Marriage is a covenant of sorts, but it is not a covenant in the sense of the covenant God made with Christ on our behalf. That covenant is memorialized to us in the symbols of bread ad wine (not just wine). And the bread and wine are not symbols to the world, they are symbols to the believer, to strengthen their faith.

In marriage, we take vows to faithfulness, etc to our spouse. The WCF is clear on the nature of these vows, and says nothing about needing some external symbols to represent the nature of the vow. 

in my opinion, the best way to represent the marriage vows to the world it to be faithful to those vows in every respect.


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## Coram Deo (Dec 4, 2007)

So the ring exchange ceremony along with other external signs are not the equivalent to a christian talmud or when directories for public worship give details for weddings, funerals, etc with alot does not come out of scripture but is for decent and order?

We do take vows to each other, but also to Christ as we form a covenant with one another.. Of course the marriage covenant cup is not to symbolize the church or Christ body since that is symbolized in the Lord's Supper but I do see a much deeper understanding with a covenant cup in marriage which by the way Marriage symbolizes are union with Christ in a visible way...




tcalbrecht said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > I would agree that adopting jewish custom is not always right nor to follow modern critics (I have learned this much more in the past year)..
> ...


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 4, 2007)

thunaer said:


> *So the ring exchange ceremony *along with other external signs are not the equivalent to a christian talmud or when *directories for public worship give details for weddings*, funerals, etc with alot does not come out of scripture but is for decent and order?
> 
> We do take vows to each other, but also to Christ as we form a covenant with one another.. Of course the marriage covenant cup is not to symbolize the church or Christ body since that is symbolized in the Lord's Supper but I do see a much deeper understanding with a covenant cup in marriage which by the way Marriage symbolizes are union with Christ in a visible way...



The ring thing is not a uniquely Christian practice. Neither is it universal among Christians. I may be wrong but I don’t think that most Reformed Church Orders give precise formulas for wedding ceremonies. Marriage is not a sacrament. Wedding ceremonies are common to all men. I’m not sure there is a right way or wrong way of building one from Scripture. 

One can do things decently and in order without the need to introduce elements that are no expressly commanded in the Word of God, things that are often introduced simply because they appear spiritual.


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