# Mountain or Molehill?



## cyberev (Sep 18, 2011)

My PCA church has decided to hire a family life/youth pastor. Last Sunday, our elders in a congregational meeting announced the hire. The elders then asked if there were any questions. I asked if this new staff member comes from a reformed background. At first they looked puzzled, and the pastor answered no. The new hire was not of a reformed background. Immediately the elders said that was a concern, but they interviewed him at length citing and using the Westminster Confession during the process. They stated it would be their responsibility to make sure he adheres to reformed doctrine.

My wife and I were very troubled by the situation and spoke with one of the elders after the announcement. He said understood our concerns, but the new family life pastor was reformed at heart. Reformed at heart, but no reformed background

It should also be noted that on search was officially conducted, so only he was interviewed. He is also a friend of our music director. Of course, I asked how much pull the music director had on the decision and was told he had no influence on the decision.

We(my wife and I) have been troubled all week by this decision. Does anyone else see this hiring as a concern? I believe a Reformed church should have Reformed leaders. The new life pastor has experience, he is not a new hire out of seminary, which begs the question, Why has he never sought out a Reformed congregation?

So are we making a mountain out of a molehill?


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## TimV (Sep 18, 2011)

He's not a leader if he's not an elder or deacon. Seems strange, though.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 18, 2011)

Is his title to be "youth _pastor_" or "family life _pastor_"? If so, then I think there is cause to be much more cautious than if he's not so entitled. Regardless of that particular issue of title, I would be concerned, yes. Was the concept of hiring someone into such a position as this not discussed with the congregation at all, i.e. did this just come out of the blue? What are his responsibilities to be? Is he teaching the youth in any way? What are his "family life" duties? To what degree is he going to be participating in an informal counselling sense with married couples and families? 

I would point blank ask the elders if the man can faithfully subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith and if he will vow to uphold it in every aspect of his role with the church. I think nothing less should be accepted. Perhaps he'll be able to, but I suspect that a question of this nature might be taken poorly given how this person seems to be being brought on board.


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## Scott1 (Sep 18, 2011)

I would think that any use of the term "Pastor" would imply (in the PCA) they are a teaching elder, who went through thorough examination by Presbytery. They (teaching elders) are accountable for doctrine and morals on a primary level to their presbytery, and then also to the local congregation.

Now, if the term is "Youth Director" they might not be an ordained teaching elder, nor a ruling elder, nor a Deacon.

Is that ever okay?

I don't think there is any requirement that the Youth Director be an ordained teaching elder in the PCA, it might be desirable, but not required. A candidate might be on a path to ordination, a member of another denomination by transfer, or might have a limited function, under supervision of Session.

The question really turns on whether this person is qualified for this job situation, in this congregation, and do they really want and have evidence of calling to serve it.

By the way, I have seen non-officers serve in Youth Director type positions, accountable to Session, and do well there; also the reverse.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 18, 2011)

TimV said:


> He's not a leader if he's not an elder or deacon. Seems strange, though.



I doubt it's that strange in larger PCA congregations, at least the situation of having a staff member who is not an elder. (Not strange meaning not uncommon and not that it's correct procedure.)

We had what amounted to a reverse situation a while back at a dispensational Bible church we were attending. They announced the hire of an adult ministry asst. pastor whose parents went to that church. He had been living in the community for several months, but had been attending a PCA congregation. While this man was a Dallas Seminary grad, he had at least some measure of Reformed conviction and served on the staff of a PCA church in another state. (A similar situation to the one in the OP. Evidently this was a broad evangelical type PCA.) He was never a TE or even licensed to preach in the PCA, but I didn't know that at the time and had previously been given information by a friend in the local presbytery that led me to infer otherwise. When it was announced, they asked if there were any questions. I thought to mention that he had been a Presbyterian (or at least among them) just a few weeks before and had only started attending this church about a month prior to the announcement, likely during the time in which the hiring was being discussed with the pastor and the elders. Given that fact, I thought to make note of that and ask about his apparent sudden change in convictions, etc. (Not only an apparent change on baptism but dispyism too since technically you're supposed to abide by their doctrinal statement.) But I couldn't bring myself to do it publicly, although I did address it to some extent privately. (No one else asked questions as I recall it and there was only a short time for me to decide whether or not to do it.) Given their elder-rule polity it wouldn't have mattered anyway since the decision had already been made, although it would have made for a somewhat awkward moment. I was glad to see him come aboard regardless, and the church has since moved in a more Calvinistic direction.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------




Scott1 said:


> I would think that any use of the term "Pastor" would imply (in the PCA) they are a teaching elder, who went through thorough examination by Presbytery. They (teaching elders) are accountable for doctrine and morals on a primary level to their presbytery, and then also to the local congregation.
> 
> Now, if the term is "Youth Director" they might not be an ordained teaching elder, nor a ruling elder, nor a Deacon.
> 
> ...




My understanding is that there is a distinction made between asst. and assoc. pastor. One has to be a TE accountable to the Presbytery and the other only has to be accountable to the session. Evidently this was the case with the brother I noted earlier. He was on the staff of a PCA church for several years, but never ordained, in part because he didn't meet the language requirements. 

I don't know what the case is in the church in question in the OP. But over the years I've come to understand that there are a good many churches in the PCA with TE's (not to mention RE's) who have little practical regard for the Westminster Standards. It's not uncommon to see it emphasized that they do not strictly subscribe to the confession. In such cases, the question in the OP wouldn't be an issue at all so long as they thought they could work with the man. Those asking such questions are sometimes just dismissed as being TR's who strain gnats and get in the way of real ministry.


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## cyberev (Sep 18, 2011)

toddpedlar said:


> Is his title to be "youth _pastor_" or "family life _pastor_"? If so, then I think there is cause to be much more cautious than if he's not so entitled. Regardless of that particular issue of title, I would be concerned, yes. Was the concept of hiring someone into such a position as this not discussed with the congregation at all, i.e. did this just come out of the blue? What are his responsibilities to be? Is he teaching the youth in any way? What are his "family life" duties? To what degree is he going to be participating in an informal counselling sense with married couples and families?
> 
> I would point blank ask the elders if the man can faithfully subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith and if he will vow to uphold it in every aspect of his role with the church. I think nothing less should be accepted. Perhaps he'll be able to, but I suspect that a question of this nature might be taken poorly given how this person seems to be being brought on board.



His title is both family life pastor/youth pastor. I am not certain how many members of the congregation knew about the plans to hire or create the position. I knew we wanted to hire for the position, but I thought it was in the planning stages. My question is why would some one from a non-reformed background even be considered for the position.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 18, 2011)

cyberev said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > Is his title to be "youth _pastor_" or "family life _pastor_"? If so, then I think there is cause to be much more cautious than if he's not so entitled. Regardless of that particular issue of title, I would be concerned, yes. Was the concept of hiring someone into such a position as this not discussed with the congregation at all, i.e. did this just come out of the blue? What are his responsibilities to be? Is he teaching the youth in any way? What are his "family life" duties? To what degree is he going to be participating in an informal counselling sense with married couples and families?
> ...



I would make some serious inquiries, then, about the title "pastor". That, to me at least, would be greatly disturbing if the man was not ordained. It implies leadership and oversight. It seems to me that if this person is hired, called a "pastor", then it is really problematic if he is not, further, officially regarded under the BCO as an "assistant pastor" - in which case subscription to the WCF is part of the vows under which he would be installed. "Pastor" is a very loaded title, and implies much more than someone who is merely someone hired to be "on staff".


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## lynnie (Sep 18, 2011)

If it was me, for a family life pastor working with marriages and kids, which means helping with interpersonal relationships regularly, the real question would be how they approach personal counseling. What books do they recommend. CCEF? Dobson? Do they talk about self esteem and setting boundaries, or repentance and sinners needing a savior? Do they believe in husband headship or are they egalitarian? What materials would they like to use with the kids. Sinclair Ferguson? Garbage? 

I know people that swear by the WCF and use Beth Moore for the ladies. And I know people that couldn't tell you the name of a confession who read everything Piper wrote and want to be God centered, bible centered, missions centered. 

You'll have to wait and see. It could turn out great and it could turn out awful, or somewhere in between. Pray for the guy, maybe the Lord will use you for his good.


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## Jack K (Sep 18, 2011)

The "pastor" designation is not usually given in PCA churches unless the man is elder-qualified. So that does sound a bit odd.

Regardless, I think you have to be careful to look at the fellow for what he is now, not what his background was before now. I know a PCA church that hired a missions director who'd been on staff with the Baptist church across town but was frustrated there and was changing his views. He turned out to be a wonderful addition, an experienced and mature believer, and a more staunchly Reformed staffer than some of the guys who'd grown up Reformed but didn't appreciate it as much.

Familiarity with a Reformed church certainly ought to be a plus on any staffer's resume. But it is hardly the only godly trait I would look for from a man hired to help lead my family and especially my teenagers. Faced with a decision between a newly Reformed guy with much life experience and an always-Reformed guy fresh out of school, I wouldn't necessarily pick the always-Reformed guy.

What I'm suggesting is that you give the new fellow a chance. If he turns out to teach bad doctrine or to be clueless in a Reformed environment, then you have something you have to deal with. But if not, you've worried over nothing.


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## Scott1 (Sep 18, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> My understanding is that there is a distinction made between asst. and assoc. pastor. One has to be a TE accountable to the Presbytery and the other only has to be accountable to the session. Evidently this was the case with the brother I noted earlier. He was on the staff of a PCA church for several years, but never ordained, in part because he didn't meet the language requirements.



This gets into details of the PCA which take time to become familiar with.

You are correct, there is a distinction between associate pastor (who is a member of his presbytery, like the senior Pastor) and an assistant Pastor who is a member of the church and called by the Session of the particular church.

But both assistant Pastor and associate Pastor would be ordained, and subject to examination. My observation is both are thoroughly examined both for doctrine and life testimony, but much more detail is required for Assistant than Associate. 



Pilgrim said:


> I don't know what the case is in the church in question in the OP.


 We need to know the exact case here.



Pilgrim said:


> But over the years I've come to understand that there are a good many churches in the PCA with TE's (not to mention RE's) who have little practical regard for the Westminster Standards.



That, of course, in anecdotal.

(My observation has been just the opposite, examination, while not perfect, is very extensive and thorough. Even for church officers such as ruling elders and deacons, the process is extensive with many checks and confirmations.)



Pilgrim said:


> It's not uncommon to see it emphasized that they do not strictly subscribe to the confession.



The standard in the PCA is sometimes called "good faith" subscription. An officer (even a ruling elder or deacon) is under oath, continuing binding oath to state differences with any statement and/or proposition of doctrine in the Westminster Standards (including the Larger and Shorter Catechism).

If the position in the original post is something like a youth director, there will be lots of supervision and shepherding possible outside of that position so I don't think it has to be ordained. To use the title "Pastor," yes. May be beneficial, but it really depends on the strategic plan and structure set by Session of the particular church.

But, it is always right and good for congregational members, and, in this case particularly parents, to be involved, to give input through and to their Session. Dealing with youth in any capacity is very important.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack K said:


> The "pastor" designation is not usually given in PCA churches unless the man is elder-qualified. So that does sound a bit odd.
> 
> Regardless, I think you have to be careful to look at the fellow for what he is now, not what his background was before now. I know a PCA church that hired a missions director who'd been on staff with the Baptist church across town but was frustrated there and was changing his views. He turned out to be a wonderful addition, an experienced and mature believer, and a more staunchly Reformed staffer than some of the guys who'd grown up Reformed but didn't appreciate it as much.
> 
> ...



I agree that it would be good to give some latitude here - BUT... the title "pastor" is not lightly to be tossed about. If it is possible to give someone an official title like "pastor" without ordination and installation, then one comes into all kinds of trouble - and this is exactly what allowed a woman into an office of "Minister of Congregational Care" at City Presbyterian PCA in Denver not long ago.


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## au5t1n (Sep 18, 2011)

The solution to these kinds of dilemmas is to limit offices in the Church to offices the Scripture prescribes, on the grounds of the sufficiency of Scripture for church government.


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## elnwood (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't see what the big deal is. The elders interviewed him at length using the Westminster standards in the process, and said they take responsibility for making sure the Westminster standards are upheld. What more do you want?

To me, this seems like a cut and dry case of trusting and submitting to your elders in uncertain matters. They know more about the candidate, and they are elders because they are wise, knowledgeable and experienced church leaders ordained by God.

To require that a candidate comes from a "Reformed background" sounds like a nepotistic, "old boys" network to me where you have to have the right credentials and graduate from the right schools.

If it comes to your attention that the guy is or has taught false doctrine that the elders don't know about, bring it to their attention. Otherwise, I'd say trust your elders.


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## au5t1n (Sep 18, 2011)

elnwood said:


> I don't see what the big deal is.



For what it's worth, my comment pertains only to the dilemma of sorting out how to distinguish between elders and "non-ordained staff members that we call 'pastor' of such-and-such and give teaching roles," not necessarily to whether the elders of this particular church know the candidate and have examined him well. We don't have enough information to know that, so I'm not sure the OP is a profitable question. Rather than asking if he has a Reformed background, I'd ask if he agrees to the Westminster Standards...but then again, I don't agree with a role of youth pastor in the first place. Just my opinion.


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## Scottish Lass (Sep 18, 2011)

Is the PCA different in that none of this came before the congregation for a vote? Assuming he will receive a salary, isn't that usually of an amount that needs congregational approval? Wouldn't they vote to extend a call?


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## Pilgrim (Sep 18, 2011)

To answer the question of mountain or molehill--as someone who could be said to have made a mountain out of a molehill more than once, I'd say it's at least a foothill. 

Whether or not one is a Baptist or a Presbyterian and whether or not one is a two office or three office man, the language of "Minister of Music" or "Youth Pastor" or "XYZ pastor" used to refer to those who are not ordained to the gospel ministry (or at least elder-qualified, including apt to teach) is problematic, not to mention the multiplication of staff positions to begin with. A Baptist pastor friend of mine was at another church for some reason, probably to preach. At some point he asked the Minister of Music if he ever preached. (It may have even been a question as to whether he ever taught in any context.) He replied, "No." "Then how do you justify the title of Minister?" As I recall the story, the response was silence and perhaps some confusion. And on one level, you can't blame the music leader because that's they way so many evangelicals do it, operating somewhat unthinkingly with an eye toward whatever works. I have however been acquainted with at least one "Worship Pastor" who was also a good preacher and teacher.


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> Is the PCA different in that none of this came before the congregation for a vote?



In the PCA, only senior pastors and Associate Pastors are called by the congregation. Assistant pastors are called by the session. And the same is true in the case of ending the call - no congregational vote is required in the case of the assistant; one is required for an associate or senior pastor.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 19, 2011)

Assistant pastors are examined by Presbytery and members thereof. This thread really isn't a good idea.

1. Please talk about this more with your Session.
2. If, at the end of the day, you think the appointment is out of accord with the BCO then file a complaint to the Presbytery.

The problem with a thread like this is that insufficient information has been given to make any kind of judgment and, on top of that, an internet forum isn't the right place to be hashing that kind of stuff out. We have people reading into the information you've given in the worst possible light while we have others speculating that the session is examining the guy properly.

According to Scripture, we're not to bring a charge against an Elder except by two or more witnesses but the charges have been free-flowing here.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2011)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Assistant pastors are examined by Presbytery and members thereof. This thread really isn't a good idea.
> 
> 1. Please talk about this more with your Session.
> 2. If, at the end of the day, you think the appointment is out of accord with the BCO then file a complaint to the Presbytery.
> ...


Exactly. I would also add that if the OP believed that he could not get an objective assessment from his Session, the next place to go is a minister in the Presbytery, not an internet board.


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