# multiracial churches



## Notthemama1984 (Nov 28, 2009)

What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?

December 19, 2008 ~ Interracial Churches | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly Video


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video. 
First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?


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## MarieP (Nov 28, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?
> 
> December 19, 2008 ~ Interracial Churches | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly Video



Thanks for posting that!

My 

First, God adds to the church whom He wills. And I sometimes wonder if a church is actually more diverse than they think- are not all the nations in Europe different...nations, although they are all white? Plus, shouldn't the makeup of a church naturally reflect the area in which it meets? If a town is predominantly white, then so are the churches. If a church is in, say, the west end of my city, it would naturally be black.

That being said, you also have to ask why there are black churches and white churches in areas where it is unnatural. I would agree with the idea that it is indeed a gospel issue. If there is a place that should not be divided by race or class, it is the church.

I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.

we have: 
92.4% white (various- Italian, German, Dutch, English, Slovak)
5.3%- Hispanic
2.3%- black (including one of my pastors- that makes 20% of my pastors! when one of them leaves for Zambia, then it will be 25%!)

The racial makeup of my church's neighborhood is: 

* White Non-Hispanic (85.5%)
* Black (8.7%)- Louisville as a whole is 33%
* Hispanic (2.5%)- Louisville as a whole is 1.9%
* Two or more races (1.5%)
* Other race (1.1%)
* Asian Indian (0.8%)
* American Indian (0.6%)

taken from City-Data

Well, my pastor has some American Indian blood in him too, as well as Italian. So that makes us a little more diverse. I guess.

Maybe we shouldn't so much talk about the church not being diverse as much as why the second largest group of ethnicities (plural because not all black people have ancestors from the same nation) are not better represented among us?

By the way, I forget the figures, but in a matter of years, at the rate that the faith in growing in Africa and Asia, whites will be the minority group in Christendom!


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## Reformed Thomist (Nov 28, 2009)

Personally, I have never worshipped in a church that _wasn't_ multiracial (this includes various suburban and inner-city Romanist parishes, an SBC church plant, a PCA church plant, an old-school Reformed Baptist church, and an evangelical Anglican parish). But then, multiraciality is an unavoidable reality in the Greater Toronto Area... although I imagine some of the old mainline churches, in certain neighborhoods, to be noticeably white.


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## Edward (Nov 28, 2009)

Andres said:


> Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American?



The easy answer to that is 'yes'. I visited one PCA church south of Atlanta a few years ago where my father and I were the only white faces in the room. Inform and Transform| Redemption Fellowship

I think Redeemer in Jackson would meet the criteria, but it is more racially mixed. I believe there are also churches in Baltimore, Birmingham, and Chattanooga that have large Black memberships. 

And, of course, there are multiple ethnic Korean presbyteries in the PCA, scattered ethnic Mexican congregations, and a sprinkling of other ethnic groups. 

There are at least two Black PCA teaching elders in the North Texas Presbytery. Both are at predominately white churches.


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

Edward said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American?
> ...



thanks Edward. I guess I just need to get out more! 
On a serious note, I am happy to hear this and fully expected that to be the case, just had never experienced it myself.


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## Jack K (Nov 28, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Note: I didn't watch the video due to other things going on.
> 
> That said, I think a church that is multiracial is great. Where I have a problem is when a church's drive/goal is to be multiracial (or any other singular minded drive). A church's goal should be to be a true church, and let God do the growing. Preach the gospel. Love the lost. Take care of the widows and orphans. Invite your friends. Invite your not-so-much friends. Let the Lord do the building and the chips fall where they may.
> 
> ...



I would humbly suggest we ought to be more proactive than this. I really do appreciate that we don't want to become like those churches that lose the gospel in a sell-out to be socially "correct." But a reading of Acts suggests to me that being multi-racial is right up there with loving the lost, caring for widows, etc. The leveling of class, ethnic and racial distinctives is a foundational part of the church's witness to the gospel. Christ died for all men. We share a grace that ought to break down barriers.

In Acts 2, the Holy Spirit formed the first church. A key part of that account is the multi-racial nature of the Spirit's work; 15 different racial/ethnic groups listed, one by one, by name! This mingling of classes and races was considered scandalous in those early days and brought the church great criticism. Today, the church in my neck of the woods is far more likely to be accused of being exclusive and racist. How have we fallen this far?


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## kvanlaan (Nov 28, 2009)

God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way... 

Our church is mostly Dutch farmers and tradesmen (read: not just white, also blond). When my wife talks to other moms in nursery, some talk about how 'dark' their children are because of their brown hair and not-quite-lily-white skin. That being said, there has been not a racist word to any of our boys. To me, that's an incredible work of grace. How many black dairy farmers do you know? Black pig farmers? I asked my cousin the first question and he said that in all his years, he'd never even met one.  Not that they would b predisposed to be racist, but it is a new situation for them, and it has been interesting to see that no-one has really even blinked in this rural, conservative church.

That is all to say - it doesn't matter a bit. Witness to all you meet. Don't go out of your way to witness to other ethnicities to bring 'people of color' into the congregation.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 28, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Note: I didn't watch the video due to other things going on.
> 
> That said, I think a church that is multiracial is great. Where I have a problem is when a church's drive/goal is to be multiracial (or any other singular minded drive). A church's goal should be to be a true church, and let God do the growing. Preach the gospel. Love the lost. Take care of the widows and orphans. Invite your friends. Invite your not-so-much friends. Let the Lord do the building and the chips fall where they may.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying and agree. We should not be singling out a specific ethnic group. Dr. Woo (who happens to be my NT Professor) talks about actively evangelizing those from "the other side of the tracks." When we are putting forth an effort to do this, we are discarding our own prejudices. It is much easier to talk to people who look like me, act like me, and have same hobbies as me. If you let the "chips fall where they may," you run the risk of creating a church that looks like you. 

It is true that God builds his church, but it is also true that the visible church varies in terms of purity through the ages. Thus however we want to label the phenomenon, our sin prevents the church from being perfect. This means we cannot just go through life thinking God will figure it all out and make it work. 

I honestly believe if we refuse or even reluctantly minister to an ethnic group, we are sinning. I would also say that if we are creating an atmosphere where an ethnic group cannot worship with us, we are also sinning. 

I am not advocating selling out to culture and making a service culturally relevant with jeans, t shirts, and rock bands. So don't think that. I am thinking of churches that I have grown up in that were not overtly racist, but viewed the "black church" down the street as outsiders. Not substandard to their church, just different. This difference was considered just a fact that could not be avoided. They liked things their way and we liked ours a different way. It is the way it always has been and the way it always will be. Their was no attempt to bridge the racial gap. This is what I mean about an atmosphere where they cannot worship. Walking into our church, they would immediately know that they were outsiders. They were not treated the same. They were not treated as brothers and sisters. 

So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group. As true as this may be, it can unfortunately become an excuse to avoid interacting with other ethnic groups.

Just food for thought.


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

Boliver, you stated what I wanted to much, much better than I could have. Thank you for your input.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 28, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group.
> ...



I know you did not say that we should only reach out to one group. If it came off that way, I apologize. Not my intentions. 

In Dr. Woo's case, his church is in Alief part of Houston. It is basically the ghetto. 30% of the Houston murders happen in that district. In the school district 70 different languages are represented as the students' primary language. He is in an extremely diverse area, but when he started his pastorate the church was overwhelmingly white. The church did not represent the ethnic diversity that was in walking distance of the church. It was his desire to fix this problem. This meant a long hard struggle dealing with racism. 

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial. 

I would add that God is not preventing. The blame falls squarely on the church.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 28, 2009)

Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.


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## Grillsy (Nov 28, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Chaplainintraining said:
> ...



Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Joshua said:
> ...



Unless a church is in a town with 90% of one race, then yes, I do see a problem if a church is only 90% of one race. My reason is because this is not indicative of the universal church, so why should it be so in local congregations? 
As for the whole argument of location having alot to do with it, I think that is a silly excuse. Since when do we all attend the church that is nearest our house?


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 28, 2009)

Andres - I fail to understand why race is even important. Can you define how you're using the term?


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## Grillsy (Nov 28, 2009)

Andres said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > Chaplainintraining said:
> ...



Okay take a place like eastern Kentucky where the location in 98% white, that is what I am talking about.

Perhaps churches in Zimbabwe should have at least 40% of white people? That is not likely. Because there just aren't that many whites there.

Or when I lived in Panama and I was the only white guy in any of the churches I attended. Should I lecture them on racial diversity? NO because the predominate area was Hispanic? With a small black and Chinese population!

So yes location DOES have a lot to do with it.

Of course it is not indicative of the universal church because the universal church stretches far beyond any borders, it has none, it is universal!

Also with regards to the race mixture of the universal church we really have no idea what it will be. So there really is no need to comment on it.

Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.


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## Kevin (Nov 28, 2009)

boschertjd18 said:


> Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.



So it's the GOVERNMENTs fault that all my kids look like me. And here I was thinking that it was DNA. I am going to log off now so I can start rejecting me some notions.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 28, 2009)

Kevin said:


> boschertjd18 said:
> 
> 
> > Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.
> ...



Race is often associated with words such as "White", "African-American", "Asian-American". Those words mean nothing. All physical characteristics are becoming increasingly blurred in our shrinking global culture. Imagine that a man from Kenya and a woman from Ireland get married and have children in the US. What and how do you label the "race" of these children? "Race" and DNA have nothing to do with one another...


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## Edward (Nov 28, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.



Yes, it's called worship style. How many Black churches have you visited?


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## Montanablue (Nov 28, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group.
> ...



A problem I have seen (and one that I think we often miss), is that we often target whites/Caucasians without really realizing we're doing so. (Note: When I say "we" I'm speaking broadly of Anglo-American Christians - but I realize that I'm painting with a broad brush, so please don't think I'm speaking of anyone specifically). I think this is a natural thing to do - we just feel more comfortable reaching out to people that we perceive to be similar to ourselves. Nevertheless, I think we need to be sure that when we make our efforts that we're not just reaching out to people "like us." 

I am really pleased to hear about some of these multi-ethnic congregations in the PCA. That's really encouraging.  I


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Grillsy said:
> ...


I apologize for taking your question out of context, becuase up until this point we were only talking about churches in the US (or I assumed we were). You are correct about your comments about a church in Zimbabwe or Panama, but that is why I specifically prefaced my comments that if a church is in a town/city/area where there is more than 90% of one race, then of course it would be unreasonable to expect a church to be completely blended evenly. However, I think this is not the norm in the more diverse US, although I realize there are still some places that are like that. 



Grillsy said:


> Also with regards to the race mixture of the universal church we really have no idea what it will be. So there really is no need to comment on it.


I disagree! Rev 5:9,10 states, "And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were slain, and *with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.* You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." 



Grillsy said:


> Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.


 I agree that in a perfect world, race would not be an issue, but we are far from a perfect world. In fact, I think this is precisely the problem. So many times when confronted with racial issues too many people just want to ignore them and hope they will go away, but the fact of the matter is, they won't.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 28, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?
> 
> The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.



The location excuse is extremely lacking. Many on this board (myself included) travel a great distance every Sunday to attend a Reformed church. Are you to tell me that 90% of people within a one hour radius of the church is of one ethnic group? It is true that many are not willing to drive an hour, but most would drive ten to fifteen minutes. Very few churches are only one ethnic race or overwhelmingly of one race for a fifteen minute driving radius from the church. 

There is not a quota that is needed in each church to show that it is diverse enough. I am not saying that at all, but the fact that there is only one black minister and one multiracial church church in my presbytery (which covers the states of TX, LA, AR, IL, MS, AL, and TN) points to a huge problem. Are we to say that only white people live in these states? The EPC is not unique here either. If they were Anthony Carter would not have to write a book _On Being Reformed and Black_. Think about it. We do not write reformed books that are geared towards white people. Why? because they are being witnessed to and ministered to. Brother Carter on the other hand has to write this book to show the black community that Reformed Theology is for them just as it is for the white community. Why? because the black community is not being witnessed to or ministered to. 

Acts six shows us that the church cannot be blind to race. One group of widows was receiving special treatment over another. This was a problem and the apostles got together to correct this. If statistics show that our churches are so ethnically lopsided (and I would add in Presbyterian circles we don't even have black churches and white churches. Minus a few, they are all white churches sprinkled with the token black family), we should take a hard look at ourselves and ask why. Is it because of our community? Is our community that lopsided ethnically? Or is it a sin problem. Do our mouths preach racial equality, but our actions say otherwise? It is something that we have to look at.


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## JBaldwin (Nov 28, 2009)

> Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.



While race should be a non-issue in the church, the church should at least to some extent reflect the community where it is located. 

I think within reformed churches, there is a tendancy to ignore acceptable cultural differences, i.e. style of music and worship. We have noticed in our little church which is located in the heart of a small rural/mountain community, that the local folks respond better to styles of singing that are more like what they are used to hearing. That can happen without compromising content (which is usually what happens).


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## Andres (Nov 28, 2009)

boschertjd18 said:


> Race is often associated with words such as "White", "African-American", "Asian-American". Those words mean nothing. All physical characteristics are becoming increasingly blurred in our shrinking global culture. Imagine that a man from Kenya and a woman from Ireland get married and have children in the US. What and how do you label the "race" of these children? "Race" and DNA have nothing to do with one another...



You seem to be arguing from a technical aspect only. I will freely admit that I have no clue the backgrounds of the cultures/ancestry of the people at my church (nor do I care) but what I do know is that when I walk in on Sunday morning and everyone has blond hair,blue eyes, and fair skin and I walk in with black hair, brown eyes, and brown skin, I stand out.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Edward said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.
> ...



Style is a cop out answer. If we believe that Scripture dictates our worship (the RPW), then style does not come into the equation. If we are willing to educate our white brothers on the RPW and how it plays out, then what is preventing us from doing the same to our black brothers? 

Are they too ignorant to understand? Are they too mule headed to recognize its validity? Seriously if style is holding them back, then you are saying that blacks are theologically deficient. If true, then why isn't the Reformed community correcting this deficiency? (Just to be clear, I do not think our black brothers are too ignorant or the like. Just making a point that style is not a valid argument for having ethnically lopsided churches)

As to your question, I have visited several black churches. Was invited to preach in one, but schedules prevented it.


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## Grillsy (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?
> ...



It is not lacking and I drive an hour to my OPC congregation. And I can honestly tell you that YES one ethnic group is a HUGE minority both where I am from and where I drive to. I can honestly tell you that.

I can also say that they do not discriminate at all even if the congregation is largely white. My wife is Hispanic she is there and our ministerial candidates wife is Syrian. That makes up our diversity but that doesn't not mean that our church is spending too little time reaching out to certain ethnic groups (I realize that you are not accusing us of doing).

I'm talking about large geographic areas as a whole. The census statistics speak for themselves. All I am trying to say is that sometimes racial expectations are not fair to certain areas.

____________

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.


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## Jack K (Nov 29, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Key phrase: _the Spirit's work_, which I would never deny. But an all out effort to target certain groups is, In my humble opinion, wrong. Target all and any.



That's right, of course. I would just add that in America today (and in many other times and places) to effectively target all and any we will probably have to make a particular effort to reach out to those different from us. We should do this without compromise, but nevertheless with much humility and a teachable attitude.


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## Andres (Nov 29, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.



Brother, how the exact numbers will be divided is not important, but if you or anyone else will try to convince me that heaven is going to be filled with predominantly any one race, then I have a huge problem with that. The point is not in specific percentages, the point is in diversity. I full admit that earlier I did bring up some percentages but I was just trying to make that point that if a congregation has 20 familes that are all the same race and then one family that is another, they would be foolish to say, "oh we're diverse cuz we have this one family!"


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Grillsy said:
> ...



It is lacking, census statistics point to fewer and fewer places that are 90% of one ethnic group. Are their places? Sure. But not 90% of places. The fact that the percent of one sided churches is so high points to the problem. If the number was less, even 70%, the argument of location and ethnic separation would be more valid. 

Every year whites are becoming less and less of the majority. I read somewhere that by 2050 or something that the USA will no longer be a white majority. Although these facts are true, this is not showing up in our churches. Our churches are not becoming more and more diverse.


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## Kevin (Nov 29, 2009)

Silliest. Thread. Ever.

This entire discussion is SO SWPL ( Stuff White People Like )

Get over yourself. Of course races exist, God after all does take credit for creating them.

Of course the gospel is for all people.

Of course Presbyterian churches are full of white people. It is called "the covenant" for a reason people. Why anyone would pretend to be surprised that a church founded by Scots, would be full of their descendants, is beyond me.

Get over youself & preach the gospel to whomever you meet. Why would you worry if suburban churches are full of suburbanites? Do you also worry that Korean churches are full of Koreans?


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## newcreature (Nov 29, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way...
> 
> Our church is mostly Dutch farmers and tradesmen (read: not just white, also blond). When my wife talks to other moms in nursery, some talk about how 'dark' their children are because of their brown hair and not-quite-lily-white skin. That being said, there has been not a racist word to any of our boys. To me, that's an incredible work of grace. How many black dairy farmers do you know? Black pig farmers? I asked my cousin the first question and he said that in all his years, he'd never even met one.  Not that they would b predisposed to be racist, but it is a new situation for them, and it has been interesting to see that no-one has really even blinked in this rural, conservative church.
> 
> That is all to say - it doesn't matter a bit. Witness to all you meet. Don't go out of your way to witness to other ethnicities to bring 'people of color' into the congregation.




For the record... I believe it is true that the color of the farmer's skin would strongly reflect the demographics of the farming community in which he or she lives. I grew up in a rural/ industrial area of Michigan, where many black men were dairy, pig, produce, and beef farmers. It was nearly as common to see blacks and whites equally represented in farming and industry. The difference that was noticeable, however, was that whites were the predominant face of college degree holders and professionals. 

I do, however, agree with the rest of your statement.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.


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## Kevin (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.



Are you complaining that God has kept his word?

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Silliest. Thread. Ever.
> 
> This entire discussion is SO SWPL ( Stuff White People Like )
> 
> ...



As the Revelation passage pointed out, it is a covenant full of diverse races and tongues. 

It isn't surprising that Presbyterian churches are full of Scottish descendants. It is surprising that after a few hundred years, the church has failed to branch out to other ethnic groups.


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## Grillsy (Nov 29, 2009)

Andres said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.
> ...



Andres please don't think that I am saying that it will be predominantly one race. All i'm pointing out is that 1. We don't know and 2. ULTIMATELY it will not matter.

Besides i'm doing my part. My wife is hispanic, our children will be multiracial by default. Maybe that is the solution to all this...:


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.
> ...



I am not sure what I am suppose to take from your quote. God is faithful and keeps his covenant. Are you implying that the whole Great Commission thing was only for white people because the Scots kept the covenant? 

Sure God is faithful to those that keep it, but that does not mean that once your race has broken the covenant there is never a chance for anyone else of your race to ever come into the covenant again. Come on.


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## Andres (Nov 29, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Grillsy said:
> ...



It's all good brother.  And for the record, I remembered that your wife was hispanic from a previous thread! My wife is white, so we are the reverse you!


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## newcreature (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?



I think this video is media propagation. As Christians, I don't think our priority should be on the race of the person sitting next to us in church. That is racism. We are to love all men, just as Christ came to save all nations. I have attended and been members at "white" churches, "black" churches, and multiracial churches. I have not found that any of the churches I have attended have been more or less Biblical based on the race of the pastor or the majority of the congregation, but rather based on the theology and how true they are to the Bible. 

Of course, we should witness and reach out to all nations. But what time do we have to pick and choose who we will and will not worship with whether they be of the same or of a different race. I say go to the nearest church in your neighborhood that is faithful to biblical truths. Then reach out to everyone in your neighborhood, work, local grocery store, and wherever you may go. 




newcreature said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> > God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way...
> ...


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## Grillsy (Nov 29, 2009)

Andres said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



LOL. Does that mean we cancel each other out!


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

How is it media propaganda? We are called to be a unified body. If our churches do not reflect unity but rather segregation, how is this a good thing? 

Rosa Parks could have stayed in the back of the bus. The bus went to the same places whether she sat in the back or in the front. The same could go for our churches. If the same theology is being taught at the black church and the white church, why bother going to the other one? It is all the same in the end right? Wrong. Parks chose to sit in the front as a protest because segregation was wrong. It was wrong on the buses and it is even worse in our churches. We may not be forcing other groups to attend other churches, but we sure are not opening our arms to them either. To continue with the bus analogy, we are telling people, "sure you can sit in the front of the bus, if there is a seat available. you have to do the work to get it though." When we should be saying, "Hey why don't you take my seat."


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## kvanlaan (Nov 29, 2009)

> A problem I have seen (and one that I think we often miss), is that we often target whites/Caucasians without really realizing we're doing so. (Note: When I say "we" I'm speaking broadly of Anglo-American Christians - but I realize that I'm painting with a broad brush, so please don't think I'm speaking of anyone specifically). I think this is a natural thing to do - we just feel more comfortable reaching out to people that we perceive to be similar to ourselves. Nevertheless, I think we need to be sure that when we make our efforts that we're not just reaching out to people "like us."



I actually find it easier/more comfortable to share the gospel in Chinese. There's something about witnessing in another language that is oddly freeing. Does this mean I should target Hispanics to fight the urge to speak to the Chinese?



> For the record... I believe it is true that the color of the farmer's skin would strongly reflect the demographics of the farming community in which he or she lives. I grew up in a rural/ industrial area of Michigan, where many black men were dairy, pig, produce, and beef farmers. It was nearly as common to see blacks and whites equally represented in farming and industry. The difference that was noticeable, however, was that whites were the predominant face of college degree holders and professionals.



In our area there are none. Farming in SW Ontario is pretty white (save for Mexican field hands that are here in the summer - we have some really fun outreach programs that we do with them). The only other non-caucasians that I've seen are Chinese (a few farmers here and there) and Jamaican fruit pickers. It's just the way it is.


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## DMcFadden (Nov 29, 2009)

MarieP said:


> I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.



Church (425-470 avg. Sunday attn.)
45% Asian
30-35% Hispanic
20-25% Other (white, black, etc.)

Community
45% Asian
35-40% Hispanic
15-20% Other


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Dennis your church is a breath of fresh air. It would seem though that this diversity did not just happen by itself or at least happen to the extent that it has. I say this because you have a intercultural minister. Would you agree that Mr. Reyes has helped cultivate the diversity?


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## DMcFadden (Nov 29, 2009)

No. It is mainly the vision of the senior pastor. He was raised as a dirt-poor migrant farm worker in the Central Valley of CA. He is not afraid of cultural differences. Our worship leader is hispanic, two part timers are Chinese (both with seminary degrees), one associate pastor has a Korean wife, we have a hispanic doing ministry to hispanics, and my wife is on staff and she is married to a white trash guy .

Regardless of its defects, it is a model of racial inclusion in an intentional but not PC way. I credit the pastor's courage, patience, and that EdD in leadership that taught him how to be a master of discipling, deploying, and coordinating the gifts of the congregation for outreach and community impact.

Actually, it is so broadly evangelical that it hurts my reforming head. Warren, Blackaby, and dispensational eschatology is not *exactly* where I'm at theologically .


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## rpeters (Nov 29, 2009)

As someone who has a passion for multicultural churches and a member of a PCA Multicultural church. It is just plain fact that we go to churches where we feel we can relate. Right? Youa re seing a couple things immagrants are moving more to the city and even now to the suburbs and one can estemate in 10 yrs to rural areas. What are the white churches going to do when you have alot of different races in your back door how will you minister to them? The theme of diversity of God's people and promises of God are blantant in scripture. Genesis 12. If we take the great commission seriously we MUST reach out to those who are different than us! To look at the great commission and not see the the diversity in judea, sumaria, and the outer regions with is diversity. So if we seek to live the great commision we will will seek diverse churches. Second, the millions of mixed couples and families how can we minister to them both. I think the key is multicultural churches. This will cause us to get out of our comfortzone, but didn't God do this to Peter with Cornelius,


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## KaphLamedh (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, I don´t see any problem in multiracial churches as far as they are not based on cultural grounds. We have Chinese, African-American, Russian, Caucasian, Finnish, Japanise Swedish in one church in my home town. Greater Grace World Outreach-church is one (and only) of "multiracial church" and I think it works very well. USA is still quite different and much more multiracial country than Finland...


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 29, 2009)

MarieP said:


> I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.



25-35 regulars:
80% people of primarily African lineage.
10% people of primarily European lineage. (my family included here)
10% other

I honestly don't even like breaking it down into these categories because I think it's irrelevant.



Kevin said:


> …Get over yourself. Of course races exist, God after all does take credit for creating them…



Race does not exist and you haven't even defined what that terms means. God scattered people in different regions which created different social norms. Again, race is a socially construed concept.


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## newcreature (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> How is it media propaganda? We are called to be a unified body. If our churches do not reflect unity but rather segregation, how is this a good thing?
> 
> Rosa Parks could have stayed in the back of the bus. The bus went to the same places whether she sat in the back or in the front. The same could go for our churches. If the same theology is being taught at the black church and the white church, why bother going to the other one? It is all the same in the end right? Wrong. Parks chose to sit in the front as a protest because segregation was wrong. It was wrong on the buses and it is even worse in our churches. We may not be forcing other groups to attend other churches, but we sure are not opening our arms to them either. To continue with the bus analogy, we are telling people, "sure you can sit in the front of the bus, if there is a seat available. you have to do the work to get it though." When we should be saying, "Hey why don't you take my seat."



I do believe that a church or minister going on TV to do a detailed interview based on the cultural diversity in their congregation is media propaganda. The video was not about theology, but merely diversity. 

With that said, you make good points in your Rosa Parks illustration. And I agree, that churches should be diverse. However, I do not think it should be our primary purpose. If we are seeking to make churches multicultural by catering to the cultural preferences of those different from us, then we run the risk of making our churches relative. Our first priority needs to be that we are preaching the gospel and worshipping in a way that holds true to scripture. 

I am now in a "white" church. My husband is white, all of the congregation and both pastors are white. My two children and I are the _only_ individuals in the church who are not white. We have recently had some Hispanic visitors, and it is nice to have them there... not because of their color, but because they share in our desire to serve the Lord. But we don't feel slighted because of that. We are in a place where we are being preached the unadulterated word of God. That is so much more important than being in a place where people look like us. 

If people don't want to come to church because the church is not diverse, then they are serving their own ungodly motives. The church should NEVER make anyone feel uncomfortable because of their race, gender, age, level of education, or any other reason. We should have open arms and welcome all people into our churches. But we can't make them come. That is a choice that each person has to make.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference. 

Also I would not trade the Word rightly divided for a crayon box congregation. Being multiracial is not number one priority.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference.
> 
> Also I would not trade the Word rightly divided for a crayon box congregation. Being multiracial is not number one priority.



How are you using this word "multiracial"? What does that mean?


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

> If people don't want to come to church because the church is not diverse, then they are serving their own ungodly motives.



Maybe and as a general rule I would say yes. But if the church is saying, "no jew, no greek, no male, no female," but through their actions the church is saying, "only white. If you are of a different color, you can join but you have to talk like us, dress like us, have the same hobbies, same education, basically be us but with a darker tan," alot of people are not going to stay. It is not for ungodly reasons or motives. It is because although the church talks about being a part of the covenant community, these people do not feel that are a part of it. 

When I first started attending presbyterian churches, I attended two of the worst possible churches I could think of. At the first one, my wife and I were treated as complete outsiders. No one talked to us except one lady and that was after the sermon. It wasn't even a meaningful conversation.

The second church was even worse. I traveled nearly 50 miles to attend this church. I got there early and sat down. The only person that talked to me was a guy who was filling in for the pastor who was sick. He wasn't even a member of the church!

It did not matter really how the rest of the service went. I wasn't coming back because it was obvious that I wasn't welcome. This is the kind of thing I am referring to in this thread. I do not know of a single church where a family of a different race is told they cannot worship there, but I know of several churches that treat people in such a way that they know they are not a part of the group. 

We are the family of God. All brothers and sisters. One giant covenant community. We should not be divided into clics as if we are in high school again.

-----Added 11/29/2009 at 09:29:55 EST-----



boschertjd18 said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference.
> ...



A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.


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## py3ak (Nov 29, 2009)

Boliver, in reference to your bad experiences, I would suggest that you read James M. Ault's, _Spirit and Flesh: Life in a Fundamentalist Baptist Church_. He spends some time there dealing with the differing expectations that people have of what a welcoming church looks like, and it is very eye-opening. The fact is that what we perceive as welcoming or unwelcoming has as much to do with us as with the congregation. So for instance, the church I felt _most_ comfortable in as a visitor was a Mexican Presbyterian congregation where no one spoke to me until I obtruded myself on the notice of the pastor and a ruling elder because I wanted to ask a question. The churches you visited sound really nice to me. So it raises the possibility that you felt unwelcome because of how you would try to make a visitor welcome, rather than because that church was trying to discourage you from ever returning. By the same token, churches that creeped me out because of their invasive and aggressive welcoming techniques were probably just trying to make me feel at home.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thank you for the book suggestion. I will try to obtain a copy of it. 

As for the welcoming. Although it can go overboard at some churches, the visitors should feel welcomed and at least someone should say hello. 

If my brother knocks on my door today, I am not going to open the door, let him in, and ignore him. I am going to say hello and see how he is doing at a bare minimum. If this is the case with our physical brothers, why should our spiritual brothers be any different?


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## py3ak (Nov 29, 2009)

But I would ignore my brother. That's the point. We come from different backgrounds with different patterns of expectations.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Then I guess Southern Hospitality is a unique phenomenon.


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## Montanablue (Nov 29, 2009)

py3ak said:


> But I would ignore my brother. That's the point. We come from different backgrounds with different patterns of expectations.



So you don't speak to visitors at church?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that most people would find that a little off putting.


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## JoyFullMom (Nov 29, 2009)

We have actually had the privilege of meeting Anthony Carter, author of "On Being Black and Reformed". He spoke at our former church. One thing he addressed was the fact that here, in the south, so many churches within the black community are more politically based. He has a real burden to see sound doctrine taught...*period*. If you are not from the south...and even then, certain *areas* of the south, you cannot understand this. There is alot of pressure for these pastors to be very political in their pulpits. This is certainly a matter of prayer. It seems to be a situation of generations of just doing things the way they've always been done, many have never even *thought* it should be otherwise. We are praying for God to open hearts and eyes. Mr. Carter has a burden to see more reformed pastors and churches within the black community. There are some reformed thinking pastors...and they need prayer. They are definitely going against the flow.

I hope this does not sound prejudiced...I am merely repeating the burden we heard from Mr. Carter. I do not have a racist bone in my body.


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## py3ak (Nov 29, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> So you don't speak to visitors at church?
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that most people would find that a little off putting.



Heidi said this would happen - people would take my description of what I'm comfortable with other people doing toward me as a description of my own conduct towards others. 
In fact, I have invited people who have come to our church for the first time over for dinner.
But the point, very simply, is that some people perceive not being introduced to the 12 tribes of Israel the first time they visit as haughtiness and a lack of hospitality, based largely on what they are used to; but others perceive being noticed and approached as a sign of aggressive proselytizing and a lack of respect for personal boundaries. Both people are likely wrong. But the practical application is that if you go to a church and nobody greets you, be grateful for the opportunity to scope it out without awkward conversations, understand that people are shy, and if you want to talk to someone strike up a conversation without putting the onus on them. And if you go to a church and people pin you down in long and uncomfortably personal conversations, and you are forced to introduce yourself in public to the whole congregation, understand that, however bizarre it seems, they are trying to make you feel at home not humiliate you.


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## Montanablue (Nov 29, 2009)

py3ak said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > So you don't speak to visitors at church?
> ...



Ah ha! I see. Thank you for the clarification. I did, indeed, misunderstand and you make a very good point.

And although I am a more gregarious person, I have also been trapped in awkward and personal conversation upon my first visit to a church, so I can understand somewhat your discomfort. (Once someone asked me if I was adopted as I do not favor either of my parents. This took a particularly hilarious turn when she talked about how much my brother - who is, in fact, adopted - looked like my father.)


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## calgal (Nov 29, 2009)

Then maybe there should also be a discussion about churches that welcome well vs those who exclude. A loving caring church family who can at least acknowledge "outsiders" and have a way to make them not feel like something scraped off the bottom of their shoe might be a good start.


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## py3ak (Nov 29, 2009)

That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.


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## calgal (Nov 29, 2009)

py3ak said:


> That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.



True but there is a difference between welcoming and being fake. And that might be a good start.  Sorry to try and derail the OP: multicultural churches are good as long as being multicultural does not become an idol.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

calgal said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.
> ...



At the sake of being repetitive, we are talking about multiracial churches, not multicultural. As Anthony Carter has said before, the church needs a culturally neutral service where all races can come together and join in worship.


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## calgal (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > py3ak said:
> ...



True but how (given cultural norms for worship) can that be done without discounting anyone's traditions or culture?


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

I am by no means an expert, but both Dr. Woo and brother. Carter have talked to me about how it is a constant process. A process of tweaking. There is not a one size fits all.


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## Edward (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Style is a cop out answer.



Since I don't do flame wars on the Lord's day, I'll respond to you tomorrow.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

Edward said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Style is a cop out answer.
> ...



Fair enough.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.



race=ethnic group=some cultural elements?

So if a bunch of bikers (specifically Harley riders, since I'm from WI) form a "culture", is the church supposed to specifically reach out to them? What about vampire groups? Or sports oriented folks? The list goes on...

If instead you want to focus on pigmentation, how exactly do you go about that? Do you reach people by shades of color? Ancestral region?


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

boschertjd18 said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.
> ...



Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.

Again, I am not advocating some affirmative action style church. I am talking about actively engaging all of the ethnic groups and subcultures that are present in the area of the church instead of focusing primarily on one group and every so often half heartily reaching out to the people who are not like us.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.
> 
> Again, I am not advocating some affirmative action style church. I am talking about actively engaging all of the ethnic groups and subcultures that are present in the area of the church instead of focusing primarily on one group and every so often half heartily reaching out to the people who are not like us.



But this is part of my point - how do you reach out to all of the subgroups and subcultures before it turns into "everybody".

I'm also assuming that when you say ethnic groups, it means 1st generation immigrants from their respective host country. Otherwise it gets really messy trying to target ethnic groups if you're a mutt like me.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 29, 2009)

boschertjd18 said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.
> ...



I am not sure where we are missing each other in the discussion. The Gospel does not need to be packaged differently for different groups. It simply needs to be presented. I am not advocating a special outreach program for bikers, another for sports guys, another for the guys who play chess in the park, etc. 

We simply need to be aware of all the various groups that are out there and make sure we are witnessing to those groups just as much as we are to groups that look like us.


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## newcreature (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Thank you for the book suggestion. I will try to obtain a copy of it.
> 
> As for the welcoming. Although it can go overboard at some churches, the visitors should feel welcomed and at least someone should say hello.
> 
> If my brother knocks on my door today, I am not going to open the door, let him in, and ignore him. I am going to say hello and see how he is doing at a bare minimum. If this is the case with our physical brothers, why should our spiritual brothers be any different?



I think you hit the nail on the head here. As Christians, we should make our brothers and sisters feel welcome. I don't think it should matter their race, ethnicity, or any other background. It is not necessary to look like or act like someone in order to make them feel genuinely welcome in your church, home, workplace, or any place. 

I do agree with you that we need to be careful of how we interact with the world. They should see something in us that sets us apart. We need to be kind, patient, demonstrating the fruit of the spirit. If we are truly loving in this way, then all people should feel welcome in our congregations regardless of race or culture.


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## VilnaGaon (Nov 30, 2009)

Christianity is the only Monotheistic Faith in which different races actually get along with each other. Any Sephardic or Ethiopian Jew would be ostracised and have his Jewishness questioned in a white Ashkenazic Synagogue. Similiarly with a Pakistani Muslim in an Arab Mosque. No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.


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## Montanablue (Nov 30, 2009)

> No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.



This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.


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## tlharvey7 (Nov 30, 2009)

brother Voddie does a great job on this subject:
SermonAudio.com - Grace Family Baptist Church


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## Kevin (Nov 30, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> > No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.
> 
> 
> 
> This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.



Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?


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## CovenantalBaptist (Nov 30, 2009)

I think that this is more an issue in more ethnically homogeneous areas that have had more recent historical segregation than heterogeneous cities which have a more integrated history. Our church began in 1974 and was reflective of the city of its day - mostly white. Now, like the city of Toronto today, it is thoroughly mixed to the point where it doesn't really make sense to even identify people by groups. About a third of our married families are what some would call "interracial"- I think that's a misnomer (see the article below). Our largest minority is Filipino and probably its white after that. According to some estimates, the city of Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world. Our 911 Emergency service answers calls in 140 different languages!

However, on the "race" issue, biblically, I think we need to talk in terms of one race not these artificial divisions that are created by minor variations in skin color and facial features. I think this article by AiG is helpful Are there Really Different Races?.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 30, 2009)

> Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?



I haven't seen it, and as far as I know, the "Sons of Ham Curse" line has been dead for aeons.

This view may change, as our big test is still ahead. Being black and being friends with your son is often fine. But when your son has a sister of roughly the same age as the friend who is overly friendly with said friend, things can change...


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## A.J. (Nov 30, 2009)

These papers are helpful too: 

OPC's Report of the Committee on the Problem of Race

PCA's Pastoral Letter on Racism

Both contain Scriptural refutations of the ideology that undergirds racism. They also address contemporary issues Reformed churches are facing especially in the area of missions and evangelism. 

FYI, racism is alive and well in my own region (and probably in other Asian regions too), and most don't even realize it in my opinion!


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## Montanablue (Nov 30, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > > No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.
> ...



I could give you numerous anecdotes from my own experience, but I won't bore you with the particulars. Suffice it to say that I have run into numerous Christians who tie unbelief or paganism to a particular "race" or culture and say that it is God's judgment on those people. (Usually, they use the term race, but really they're speaking of a culture). Generally the verse I've heard used is the one about God visiting judgment on the descendants of those who hate him. 

And then there are the legions of individuals who, while they believe that God may save black individuals, also believe that those same individuals are too simple minded to fully understand and comprehend complex doctrine and are therefore unfit for any type of Christian leadership. It is the responsibility of Caucasians to shepherd them. 

I'm astounded that no one else has encountered this. Perhaps its my rural upbringing?


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 30, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > > No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.
> ...



Unfortunately yes, I have heard deacons in a church question the salvation of the black church down the street. His reasoning was because, "all blacks do is hoop and holler, they don't preach the Word." When in reality the black pastor was probably the most knowledgeable person about the Bible in town. The deacon was making the statement based purly upon his racist beliefs.


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## SemperEruditio (Nov 30, 2009)

I brought this issue up before. What I have come to conclude based on my experiences is that God is actively opening the eyes Black/Brown people to the DoG. We then join the Reformed church and then look around after the honeymoon period and realize we're the only "ones" around...then we get on our soapbox about where are the brothers at? I did and so did a few of the guys I've spoken with.

This is the thing, most people are scared regardless of what color they are. In the US there is so much emphasis placed on race that our Anglo brothers are afraid to say the wrong thing, or have what they say get misconstrued, and their trepidation appears as though they are inhospitable. Those of us, Black/Brown, have the burden to approach our Anglo brothers and sisters. In the safe confines of the church or our/their homes we can then show each other we have little to fear and through fellowship we can help each other communicate and reach out to the lost regardless of color.

There will be a disproportionate low number of Black/Brown pastors in Reformed denominations but that coincides with the low numbers of the same group who attend university. It is even lower for Latinos. So the only thing I see is that we will primarily be RE's for the next decade. As those of us who are Black/Brown speak to and help our White brothers/sisters to speak to more people of color and they help us, we can all from there encourage all our young men to stay in school and then they will be better prepared to attend seminary. There are many Presbyteries which have the LAMP program which I think is helping in this regard.

Yes I see the lack of "color" in some of the Reformed churches I have visited. Again I also see that it is those of us who are Black/Brown who need to be proactive in seeking to fellowship with our Anglo brothers. I'm not saying Anglos do not need to seek to fellowship with us but I think it is disingenuous to come into predominantly Anglo denominations and then have a problem that they are predominantly Anglo. 

Listen, I am not the most approachable guy because of my "look." I look intimidating. I was recently asked by HR to stand-in a meeting with an employee who was threatening others in order to intimidate him with my presence. This is something the Lord has brought to my attention and I am praying and working to correct. I am actively working in being a people-person because I do not want to be "that" guy and repel other races because of a "look."

I've had some not so nice experiences with a few of our Anglo brothers/sisters as recent as the GA in Orlando. It happens. Doesn't make it right but we have not been called to match hate or fear with hate or fear. The longer I'm in the PCA the more proud I am of its heritage to including the ugly times in its history.


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## charliejunfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Andres said:


> I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
> First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?



Welllllll, I think it depends on where a person grew up and in what kind of "church" setting, for instance, if a person is used to pentecostal type worship(and lets be honest and admit that most people in the world are used to this shallowness) they will most likely have a fit that the worship music is reverent and simple. I don't buy AT ALL the whole "continued diversity" thing just because of Revelation 5:9 and the out of every tongue, nation, tribe part. It seems very obvious to me at least that throughout scripture God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". Me being an Exclusive Psalm singer makes how I look at the issue differ as well, for example, should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? NO, they should not! Should they adopt Japanese hymns? NO, they should not! However, a Psalms only singing church can adapt to culture to a certain extent in the melodies used along with the Psalms, and should they do that? Sure. 
So I don't think that Psalms/noninstrument only churches should adopt certain "worship" practices from each culture, rather it should conform to scripture and the unity/conformity therein.
I have attended a PCA and I think they should be more diverse if they really are free to sing anything within certain guiding principles, they should have Negro Spirituals and all that stuff, but I don't think it'll happen in most cases because of the focus on reverence, people who grew up around pentecostal type worship will most of the time denounce a more simple/reverent worship style. This is why whether a PCA, OPC, or RPCNA I think we as Reformed must show the world just how important proper, biblical worship is, It is a VERY serious thing which takes alot of sacrifice and study to accept!!! I say out with the "seeker friendly" churches and in with the churches who will stop at nothing to show the world the reverence and seriousness in WORSHIP of God.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Nov 30, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...



No, you're not the only one. I encountered it all the time in the South. I don't think there is overt racism in the church, but there is a good deal of subtle racism.

Interestingly, even in an extremely diverse population like New York, Redeemer is about 45% White (the exact proportion of Whites in NYC), 40% Asian, and the remainder are mostly Black with a very few Hispanics. All the pastoral staff are White or Asian. I think it's stylistic more than anything else, but I would like to see more Blacks and Hispanics in our congregation...


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## Andres (Nov 30, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
> ...



Brother, I am not sure if you wrote this post in haste or perhaps I read it in haste, but some of your comments seem particularly ignorant. 
You say, "God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". For the sake of clarification we are not talking about diversity in worship styles here. While we may not all be EP, I believe the majority of us on this board hold to RPW. 
You seem to be basing cultural diversity solely on the type of worship a church holds. Are you saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and Asians can't understand RPW? No one ever asked any church to adpot negroe spirituals so why would you make the connection that this is what would be needed to draw in African-Americans? I personally find these sentiments offensive.


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## charliejunfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Andres said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



Sorry that you are offended brother, I know this thread isn't about adapting to other worship styles and I guess I quoted you only to try and give the reason I think there is a shortage of other races in Reformed churches. I guess all I should say is that I think it definitely IS a matter of music Worship style and since it is I think that we Reformed have to be stronger in convincing the shallow evangelicals of our rich and biblical worship heritage. 
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Again sorry I offended you, I hope I made sufficient clarification brotha


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## Andres (Nov 30, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > charliejunfan said:
> ...



Sorry for rehashing, but I don't want to make any assumptions about what you are getting at. Just for my own clarification, you truly believe that the reason Presbyterian churches aren't racially/culturally diverse is because black/brown people don't like the RPW and "ordered" worship?


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## steadfast7 (Nov 30, 2009)

This is a topic that's close to my heart. I'm Korean-Chinese and would consider myself Reformed Baptist, but attend a Korean Presbyterian Church, as part of my Korean heritage and being a part of the immigrant population in Toronto where our circle of friends all grew up in the same church together.

If we're all frank about ourselves, we'll easily discover that we feel most comfortable with people who are most like us; who look like us, think like us, speak like us and worship like us. This is true of we fallen human beings in every sphere of life and church preferences is not any exception to that. This is one area in which we have brought our psychological makeup and culture into the church automatically without much consideration as to whether the gospel speaks to this and/or challenges it.

I believe the gospel does speak to racial and socio-economic segregation (whether intentional or not), in a profound way. It is far from God's ideal that our churches are 10 times more racially segregated than the neighbourhoods in which they find themselves (as the video reports). We have chosen to be comfortable and turn a blind eye to our weaknesses rather than aggressively seeking to live out the gospel in all its visible fullness. 

I'm speaking from a highly diverse metropolitan context of Toronto, so granted, not all neighbourhoods have that kind of make-up and need not worry about having every tribe in their sanctuary on a Sunday morning. But that video and the testimony of that church is amazing and I believe that all who find that situation relevant to their context should pray that our churches can look more like that.


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## Jake (Nov 30, 2009)

It bothers me that whenever I am with others, whether it be a small group of friends, a classroom, large environment, etc. the only time it is all one race is at church. In my area there is more than half white, but there is a good amount of diversity as well. 

However, I feel like a lot of our ministries are those that would only reach out to other people like us. Our biggest outreach ministry is probably our recreation program. Considering how much that costs for the participants, it is only going to attract the more wealthy. We do have a clothes closet, but we never actually bring people into the church through that somehow.


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## VilnaGaon (Nov 30, 2009)

Andres said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...


I mean no offence ---- but most Black, East Indian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic and even Portugese and Italians do not generally like the RPW and ordered worship. I know this because many of them tell me so. For that matter white teenagers and white people in their 20s do not like it either. The reasons are cultural not racial.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 30, 2009)

Sorry, but what I am getting from Charles is not that minorities cannot 'understand' the RPW, but that there are certain cultural practices that go along with race that may make it unusual for certain races to worship in an RPW kinda way.


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## Andres (Nov 30, 2009)

okay well then the church (which we make up) has a responsibility to teach and help the minorities understand. And for the record, this minority _loves _the RPW


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## kvanlaan (Nov 30, 2009)

But brother, I speak to those who I meet about the gospel. It just happens that because I grew up and work in a Dutch community, I meet mostly Dutch people. They are CRC or URC or FRC and that encompasses about 80% of the people I meet. Another large percentage are Ethiopian and Chinese, and we do talk to them as well. Those we meet outside of that also get the gospel, same as anyone else (I think my son is fairly close to getting disciplined at work for spreading the gospel in the packing line at the greenhouse). And yet our church is 99% white and Dutch. Is the gospel failing us? No. Do we discriminate in who we witness to? No. But I am also not going to move into another cultural community because I want to see more variety in the faces at church. It is just a natural consequence of our background. I love my black/hispanic/asian/middle eastern brothers in Christ. But the culture that goes along with their ethnicity tends to keep them in a certain mode of worship that may make our method of worship unpalatable. I realize that we see more to it than method/style, but to many, that's all it is.


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## boschertjd18 (Nov 30, 2009)

VilnaGaon said:


> I mean no offence ---- but most Black, East Indian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic and even Portugese and Italians do not generally like the RPW and ordered worship. I know this because many of them tell me so. For that matter white teenagers and white people in their 20s do not like it either. The reasons are cultural not racial.



I definitely agree the issue is cultural, and not about ancestral background or skin color/features. But then the question becomes whether or not the church should be culturally sensitive and/or target certain cultures. And if so, how and which ones?


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## AThornquist (Nov 30, 2009)

It truly disgusts me when churches are intentionally separated by race. However, most often I don't think people separate by race "intentionally." Perhaps people fail to reach across boundaries though.

For my own little church out in northern California, we are 95% white for one reason only: there are two groups in the area, white and Hispanic. Many of the Hispanics don't speak English. Thus, the Hispanics mostly go to the Spanish services at the Catholic, SDA, and JW facilities. Several in my congregation (I am one) are in the process of learning Spanish so that we can reach out to them.


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## Wayne (Dec 1, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > . . . should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? . . .
> ...


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## charliejunfan (Dec 1, 2009)

Andres said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



No, what I am saying is that for most people whether white, black, or rainbow, Reformed worship is boring to alot of people!!!. So instead of just convincing people of TULIP and leaving them at that we should teach them about TRUE worship.

Oh, and I think convincing people of Reformed theology is hard enough with ones own race, so trying to convince someone of another race seems even harder therefore we stick with what we think will be an easier target.

I am also not accusing anyone here, I am just sayin ;p


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## steadfast7 (Dec 1, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> No, what I am saying is that for most people whether white, black, or rainbow, Reformed worship is boring(until understood I guess). So instead of just convincing people of TULIP and leaving them at that we should teach them about TRUE worship.



True worship is worship is Spirit and _Truth_. Orthodoxy means "right opinion" and can also be translated as "right worship."



> Oh, and I think convincing people of Reformed theology is hard enough with ones own race, so trying to convince someone of another race seems even harder therefore we stick with what we think will be an easier target.
> 
> I am also not accusing anyone here, I am just sayin ;p



With God, all things are possible. He knows who are his.


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## raekwon (Dec 1, 2009)

Y'know, just about any "worship style" can be brought into line w/ the RPW. Maybe the reason (or one big reason) that there aren't many culturally/racially diverse (or largely black/latino/etc) presbyterian churches around is that the prevailing culture of American presbyterianism -- largely white and affluent -- is being unduly imposed.

Thoughts?


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## kvanlaan (Dec 1, 2009)

> presbyterian churches around is that the prevailing culture of American presbyterianism -- largely white and affluent -- is being unduly imposed.



I don't understand 'imposition' here. We use confessions that are hundreds of years old and Northern European in nature. That sort of locks us into a form that is not ethnically diverse. It's nobody's 'fault', it is just a form that we follow. I know that even our hymnal was last revised in 1959 (and those of you who are EP may have much older versions). 

If you look at just about any TR church, you will find this sort of thing. I know of FRC churches where not only are they all white, they're mostly related! And yet, there is outreach, there are missions, these people are not slouches. But that form of worship (EP, quiet, reverend) does not 'fit' with many people. So while they may have been saved through preaching by an FRC pastor, they attend an evangelical church. No problem there, it's just an issue of cultural practise, In my humble opinion.


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## raekwon (Dec 1, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > presbyterian churches around is that the prevailing culture of American presbyterianism -- largely white and affluent -- is being unduly imposed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True enough, but what I'm talking about has nothing to do with any confession. What I'm talking about has more to do with stylistic things -- things in which we have freedom (which is what the RPW exists to preserve). Things like musical style, length and manner of preaching, overall character of the worship service (for instance, you mentioned "quiet" and "reverent", as if to say worship can't be reverent if it's not quiet*). These are matters to which the Regulative Principle really doesn't speak, and that's a good thing!

The imposition I'm talking about is the imposition of a particular style of worship upon a people, as if style is a matter of God's command. It's not. I'm not ignorant enough to say that "anything goes" in worship, of course -- but like I said, almost any stylistic variance can easily be done in a way that falls into line with the RPW.

* And I know you didn't say that, but that's an implication that can be readily drawn there.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Dec 1, 2009)

raekwon said:


> Y'know, just about any "worship style" can be brought into line w/ the RPW. Maybe the reason (or one big reason) that there aren't many culturally/racially diverse (or largely black/latino/etc) presbyterian churches around is that the prevailing culture of American presbyterianism -- largely white and affluent -- is being unduly imposed.
> 
> Thoughts?



Rae, I think you're right on. When most PCA members think of a worship service they probably think hymns or relatively "subdued" spiritual songs with a soberly delivered sermon with no interaction by the congregation. I think most PCA churches could do more to consider the stylistic preferences and cultural heritage of ethnic minorities. 

But it is a two-way street - just as predominantly White churches shouldn't worship in an exclusively "White" style, so Blacks and Hispanics (and others) shouldn't seek out only worship styles that they prefer. Both mistakes are forms of selfishness and narcissism.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 1, 2009)

> * And I know you didn't say that, but that's an implication that can be readily drawn there.



Nope, didn't. I don't think that at all. But see, I'm also not a dyed-in-the-wool RPW guy. We're of the Dutch tradition, and don't have the same focus on the codification thereof as the Presbyterians (I think). But it does mean that my way of worship likely won't fit with a recent convert who is Latin/Philippino/whoever that comes from a different culture. I'm not against more exuberent forms of worship in their entirety, but just see it as more of a balancing act once you go down that road. For some reason, the headcoverings, dark suits, and so on do not lend themselves to that sort of thing. 



> I think most PCA churches could to more to consider the stylistic preferences and cultural heritage of ethnic minorities.



I just don't see the need to change it. We have non-Dutch members in the URC, but they conform to this style of worship - that's what a URC church is. We shouldn't be monolithic, but neither do I think we need to cater to other styles of worship because of "felt needs*". I just think that if this is why we are doing it, the motivation is off, because we are changing to be more palatable to others, and not to be closer to a scriptural model.

* And I know you didn't say that, but that's an implication that can be readily drawn there.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Dec 1, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > * And I know you didn't say that, but that's an implication that can be readily drawn there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see your point, but what's the difference in singing Psalm 19 to the tune of an English folk song and singing it to the tune of a Negro Spiritual? If there is no Scriptural difference, why not engage in all types of styles and cultural preferences when it comes to worship services?


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## Fly Caster (Dec 1, 2009)

*From Dabney's Letter to Gen. Howard*

...this might explain some things-- at least in the South.



> Nor has our section neglected that noblest and highest interest
> of all races, the spiritual interest of the negro. She has
> diffused among the blacks a pure gospel. She gave him the
> Christian Sabbath, and fortified the gift with laws and penalties,
> ...



http://dabneyarchive.com/Discussions%20V4/To%20Major%20General%20Howard.pdf


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## charliejunfan (Dec 1, 2009)

VilnaGaon said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > charliejunfan said:
> ...



 Brotha! May we all strive to be a Christian race rather than a cultural one!


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## kvanlaan (Dec 1, 2009)

> I see your point, but what's the difference in singing Psalm 19 to the tune of an English folk song and singing it to the tune of a Negro Spiritual? If there is no Scriptural difference, why not engage in all types of styles and cultural preferences when it comes to worship services?



I guess for no real reason besides that's how we've always done it, and _why_ are we changing it? The nasty truth of the matter is that culture plays a part in how we worship. I would not feel comfortable in an SBC "Night of Praise" service, so I never went when I was in university. I just don't feel that that is how I am to come before the Lord. I'm not saying that it is scripturally without warrant on every point, but I am not comfortable with certain aspects of it. I do feel that the reformed notion of doing things, while naturally influenced by the culture at the time (to an extent) was a return to the Bible/early church in as close a way as possible.

In regards to the early church services, I found some of the quotes in this thread fascinating:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/what-did-early-church-service-look-like-55751/

Found this on Wiki (can't comment on its validity):


> Worship
> 
> first worship services were liturgical gatherings, which followed essentially a "Christianized" synagogue liturgical framework, and met in sections of homes quartered off especially for worship. Christians considered each other to be brothers and sisters, each contributing their respective gifts to the community. Gatherings featured hymns, prescribed prayers, and readings, especially from the scriptures (Old Testament). The first thirty to sixty years would not have known the writings of the new covenant as they had not yet been written, Christ's teachings being transmitted through the liturgy, its hymns and prayers and through oral Tradition. Eventually, once they had become known, Paul's epistles and later the gospels and other texts were read during the initial liturgical services. The Lord's Supper comprised a communal meal with prayers in memory of Jesus. Services were known as agape feasts or love feasts.
> 
> ...



If the argument is to reject our traditions in favor of returning to those early church practises, I am more for it. But just to substitute one traditon for another? Not sure that I can get behind that.


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## charliejunfan (Dec 1, 2009)

steadfast7 said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> > No, what I am saying is that for most people whether white, black, or rainbow, Reformed worship is boring(until understood I guess). So instead of just convincing people of TULIP and leaving them at that we should teach them about TRUE worship.
> ...



I don't know what your point is with the worship in Spirit and Truth thing unless you're referring to John Frame in which case

And as far as me sayin it's easier to speak to ones own race, maybe I should have said cultural upbringing, but anyways, I know all things are possible with God but I'm merely suggesting that cultural phobias is something alot of people struggle with and I definitely wouldn't classify it as racism. In fact, I have spoken to many people of different races about Reformed Theology/Reformed Worship etc...I just didn't want to brag before, but now I am


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## Romans922 (Dec 1, 2009)

Edward said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American?
> ...



Redeemer in Jackson is still predominately white, I might guess 75-85% white.


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## charliejunfan (Dec 1, 2009)

I attended a PCA in Tucson where there was both a black girl(Simply Nikki on pb) an indian guy, Alex(cool guy and friend), and a few latin people!


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## Southern Twang (Dec 1, 2009)

I think we often confuse race with culture. I particularly don't want to go to a "black" church. By black I mean the stereotypical singing and preaching I've experienced first hand and seen on the television. Nor do I want to go the stereotypical "white" church where there is hardly any enthusiasm.

But in both cases, am I not attracted to these places because of race? Ultimately it's because of the culture I was brought up in. I am not saying that one culture is wrong or right, but I should maintain the right to choose a congregation where the majority of a people happen to be of one particular race without being hinted as a racist, even a subtle one at that.

People of color (if that phrase even means anything) often do stick out like a sore thumb in a white church. Often times, from my experience, the majority race in the room doesn't care.


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## Edward (Dec 1, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Redeemer in Jackson is still predominately white, I might guess 75-85% white.



Thanks for the correction of my post.


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## aadebayo (Dec 2, 2009)

The church that I fellowship here in Luton (My church is in Dunstable) is 95% caucatian. I prefer the church because the bible teaching is sound and there is no error. I have been to many black majority churches and I only know of 2 that are sound in doctrine. I believe that doctrine should be the first priority in deciding where to fellowship. This is because issues such as race and the like will not be a problem if the doctrine preached by such Church is osund.


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## bradofshaw (Dec 2, 2009)

Edward said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Redeemer in Jackson is still predominately white, I might guess 75-85% white.
> ...



But who's counting? 

I should add that I say this because many people, being earnest but misguided, ask about numbers as if our church's goal is to achieve some sort of racial equilibrium. The goal is to preach the gospel to our community and see the lost saved and the people of God built up as one body. Praise God that He is bringing blacks and whites together into one body in our church!

In all humility, I struggled with whether to post this. I don't mean to ruffle feathers or offend any. This is my perspective on the race issue based on the privilege I've had to be a part of Redeemer Church in Jackson (who some might label "multicultural"). I admit I did not grow up in the south and may not have the whole picture. I know many on this board have experienced far more of the South than I (whether black or white). I am also no expert in reaching out across racial lines. I admit I struggle to do this well in my own personal life. Setting the RPW issue aside (which I admit is important)...

In answer to the discussion of whether diversity matters, it should be noted that there is considerable cultural divide, generational sin (among both blacks and white), and false teaching (in both the black and white church) in Jackson that supports the notion of a separate black church and white church. One of the regrettable things in our city's history is that the church as a whole (including the PCA) has let the black community fall into disarray and failed to pursue it with the true gospel. Many in our city are trapped in a very false gospel (health & wealth/social/political gospel), which often exacerbates some of the considerable social disorder in the black community (i.e. drugs, crime, abuse, single motherhood, failing schools, etc.). 

I am amazed at the fruit God is bearing among black students at Jackson State University (A historically black college) through RUF, which was recently started by one of our black members. Many of these young people are hungry for the true gospel and are eager to learn. Most have never interacted with preaching like this, and have heartbreaking stories of abuse or manipulation by the religious leaders they've had on campus in the past. Whether prevailing cultural changes are just now allowing a ministry like RUF at Jackson State to flourish or whether the Lord has just seen fit to work at this time, it is startling the fruit that is being born by earnest but meager efforts to reach out with the reformed gospel into the black community. For what it is worth, the Lord has raised up several faithful, committed, reformed black leaders in our church and is using them in the work at Redeemer. 

I don't say this as though there were never any such efforts prior to Redeemer's founding. Far from it, Redeemer exists because of the efforts of its predecessor, Trinity PCA. I do say this because there is good reason for the church to purposely pursue the lost across racial lines, and when people see blacks and whites worshipping together in a city with Jackson's racial history, it says something about the gospel and the God we serve. The prayer is that the Lord will show his power in redeeming this city, and that necessarily includes healing the racial divide.


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## Mushroom (Dec 2, 2009)

From what I understand, Rome in Paul's day was pretty racially diverse, yet I read nothing in the scriptures that addresses racial disvision in the Church then. I wonder what the difference is between then and now that Churches were planted all around the Mediterranean that apparently had fellowship and mutual respect for one another over the first several centuries of Christian history? Is it purely cultural, or was there something different about evangelization that we're missing? Doesn't the Gospel transcend culture?


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## Montanablue (Dec 2, 2009)

Brad said:


> From what I understand, Rome in Paul's day was pretty racially diverse, yet I read nothing in the scriptures that addresses racial disvision in the Church then. I wonder what the difference is between then and now that Churches were planted all around the Mediterranean that apparently had fellowship and mutual respect for one another over the first several centuries of Christian history? Is it purely cultural, or was there something different about evangelization that we're missing? Doesn't the Gospel transcend culture?



Actually, I think there's a fair amount talking about racial and cultural differences in the New Testament. Ephesians particularly seems to be addressing divisions in the church because of these problems. Also, there's the constant tension between Jewish Christians and gentile Christians - some of which is religious/theological issue, but some of which (I think) was also racial and cultural.


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## Edward (Dec 2, 2009)

bradofshaw said:


> I don't say this as though there were never any such efforts prior to Redeemer's founding. Far from it, Redeemer exists because of the efforts of its predecessor, Trinity PCA. I do say this because there is good reason for the church to purposely pursue the lost across racial lines, and when people see blacks and whites worshipping together in a city with Jackson's racial history, it says something about the gospel and the God we serve. The prayer is that the Lord will show his power in redeeming this city, and that necessarily includes healing the racial divide.



I'm going on dim recollection here, so if someone has more accurate info, I'll welcome any correction. When what became Northpark moved to the location east of I-55, there was some work done toward acquiring their old property in West Jackson and planting a Black church there. For several reasons, most of them unknown to me, that project never came to fruition. But there were PCA men working toward the goal in the mid or late 1980s.


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## bradofshaw (Dec 3, 2009)

bradofshaw said:


> I am amazed at the fruit God is bearing among black students at Jackson State University (A historically black college) through RUF, which was recently started by one of our black members. Many of these young people are hungry for the true gospel and are eager to learn. Most have never interacted with preaching like this, and have heartbreaking stories of abuse or manipulation by the religious leaders they've had on campus in the past. Whether prevailing cultural changes are just now allowing a ministry like RUF at Jackson State to flourish or whether the Lord has just seen fit to work at this time, it is startling the fruit that is being born by earnest but meager efforts to reach out with the reformed gospel into the black community. For what it is worth, the Lord has raised up several faithful, committed, reformed black leaders in our church and is using them in the work at Redeemer.



I should amend this to say that the work being done at Jackson State's RUF is by no means meager. I should have used a better word. Strategic or targeted is really what I was trying to get at. Elbert McGowan, who leads the RUF, and the others who help out, pour their time and energy into the ministry. However, I am amazed that the Lord is using something as seemingly small as an on-campus Bible study to accomplish big things which are largely unprecedented as far as a reformed work being established in the black community in Jackson.


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