# Chance of OPC and PCA union



## Calvinbeza (Sep 18, 2015)

I think the OPC a PCA are quiet similar and when they are unite the new denomination would collect the conservative Presbyterians. The Reformed family would not be so fragmented. What do you think?


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 18, 2015)

It came close several years go but the OPC and PCA have distinct cultures. I think the chances of it happening now are much more remote than they were back in the 80's when this was a serious consideration. There is a pretty significant progressive movement in the PCA these days.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 18, 2015)

What do you mean about "significant progressive movement in the PCA these days"


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 18, 2015)

Check out the Intown PCA thread on what some think it is to be "missional" these days.

We recently had an Overture (defeated thankfully) arguing that we need to strike the language of "recreation" from the Confessional language on the 4th Commandment. Arguments on Overtures committee amounted to the idea that the exception was pretty much perfunctory and that virtually 90% of some Presbyteries took an exception to the recreation clause.

During debates about intinction 3 years ago, arguments appealing to the Regulative Principle of Worship and Liberty of Conscience to prohibit the practice of intenction were summed up as "Pharisaical" during a floor speech.

I could go on. I love my Church and there are many good men in it. I'm even friends with those whom I disagree but the fact of the matter is there is a slow slide away from the reasons that the PCA was founded.


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## Romans922 (Sep 18, 2015)

Not going to happen at this point.


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> It came close several years go but the OPC and PCA have distinct cultures. I think the chances of it happening now are much more remote than they were back in the 80's when this was a serious consideration.



I agree completely. What would be better (but I can't see even being seriously proposed) would be a general re-alignment, with about 15-20% of the PCA going to the EPC, 5 or 10% to the OPC, a few to the ARP (those that want deaconesses but are otherwise conservative), with the PCA picking up a few from each of the other denominations. That would leave the PCA as a more unified, but clearly moderate body.


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## earl40 (Sep 18, 2015)

Curious is there a procedure for a particular church within a denomination to go from PCA to OPC?


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## Clark-Tillian (Sep 18, 2015)

Hope dies slowly, but I do not see it happening anytime in the near, or even semi-distant, future.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 18, 2015)

I thought the former Southern Presbyterian churches that joined later PCA are more conservative, than the PCA churches in the Northwest(newly founded. or later joined) and the former Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod congregations that joined past 1983. Right?


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 18, 2015)

Not a chance. The PCA is untied from adherence to the Westminster Standards to an extent the OPC would not accept (as of now at least).


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2015)

earl40 said:


> Curious is there a procedure for a particular church within a denomination to go from PCA to OPC?



Fairly simple process to leave. See BCO 25-11, Basically have a congregational meeting and vote, and follow any applicable provisions of state law. 

Up to the receiving body as to what requirements they put on. Generally, they will want to re-examine the officers, may have some denomination specific training, and the receiving presbytery would likely need to approve receiving the church.


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I thought the former Southern Presbyterian churches that joined later PCA are more conservative,



'Conservative' means different things to different folks. 

There was a range in the original churches from reformed to evangelical - some of the problems today can be traced to the need at the time to accommodate a range of views. It was probably a mistake to put the denominational headquarters in Atlanta.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 18, 2015)

My friend told me that the Evangelical Synod tempered its Reformed theology to a broader evangelical stance, to be successful in evangelism, and after the Joining and receiving the "new" PCA inherited much from this. Is this tru?


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 18, 2015)

Yes; the RPCES was New School; the PCA at least was viewed by some as continuing Old School with the issue being strictness of adherence to the Westminster Standards. The tension over subscription to doctrinal standards was settled over the sizable minority's objections when good faith subscription passed in I think 2002 or 2003.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 18, 2015)

> It was probably a mistake to put the denominational headquarters in Atlanta.


The PCA bought the former headquarters Southern Presbyterian.


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> The PCA bought the former headquarters Southern Presbyterian.



I didn't recall the PCUS offices as being in the Executive Park development (I-85 and and Druid Hills?). The office park was pretty new when the PCA started, so they couldn't have been there long.


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## earl40 (Sep 18, 2015)

Edward said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Curious is there a procedure for a particular church within a denomination to go from PCA to OPC?
> ...



Thank you Edward. Even though the official process would be simple what Chris said I see to be sadly very real, and would make the that part of the process impossible for many churches here in Central Florida. I also realize it is not the laity but the leadership that has allowed this to grow into a "crisis".


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 18, 2015)

The OPC and the PCA have never been in talks for organic union. What was on the table, and failed in the PCA then the OPC, was the process of the PCA inviting the OPC to join and be received. It was not a union in view but a sort of absorption. Neither denomination is interested in that today and organic union is quite unlikely at this point.

BTW, I was in central Florida last weekend for a conference on evangelism and apologetics at New Life PCA in Mineola. Greetings Central Floridians! We had some folks from neighboring OP and PCA churches and a wonderful time of learning and fellowship. Didn't meet any PBers, however. Maybe next time.

Peace,
Alan


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## earl40 (Sep 18, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> BTW, I was in central Florida last weekend for a conference on evangelism and apologetics at New Life PCA in Mineola. Greetings Central Floridians! We had some folks from neighboring OP and PCA churches and a wonderful time of learning and fellowship. Didn't meet any PBers, however. Maybe next time.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



Well next time announce here if you are coming back to the lightning and mosquito capitol of the world. It would be really nice to meet you.


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## Gforce9 (Sep 18, 2015)

earl40 said:


> Alan D. Strange said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I was in central Florida last weekend for a conference on evangelism and apologetics at New Life PCA in Mineola. Greetings Central Floridians! We had some folks from neighboring OP and PCA churches and a wonderful time of learning and fellowship. Didn't meet any PBers, however. Maybe next time.
> ...



I can tell you first hand: You would not be disappointed. Dr. Strange is a warm, friendly man, a fantastic teacher, and a faithful minister of the Gospel.


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## Wayne (Sep 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > The PCA bought the former headquarters Southern Presbyterian.
> ...



At its formation, the PCA had no central offices, and the agency offices were scattered around the South. An office building at 1852 Century Place was purchased circa 1985 and was used up until circa 2002, when property at 1600-1700 North Brown Road was purchased and two buildings erected. The property does have room for yet another building, when needed.

The two PCA entities that remain outside of the Atlanta area are of course Covenant College and Covenant Seminary, though these are by nature different from the other agencies.

The PCA Historical Center [PCAHC] does not have agency status but rather is a ministry of the Stated Clerks Office, and was established in January of 1985, while there still was no central office location. Dr. Will Barker, president of Covenant Seminary at the time, offered free space for the Archives. The Joining & Receiving was in 1982 and the RPCES archives were already located there on Seminary property, so it made a lot of sense to put the new Archives there. 

So the PCAHC has been here in St. Louis ever since. As we are approaching capacity in the present facility, the need of a move becomes mandatory, and there could be real benefit in being near the central offices. On the other hand, being in the center of the nation has its own advantages, what with the PCA increasingly shifting from being a Southern denomination to more of a national denomination (currently about 59 or 58% weighted in the South and 41 or 42% elsewhere).


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 19, 2015)

Wayne

I just mentioned the southern origin of the PCA. You have promised my the list of OPC churches that transitioned to the PCA. Please send me the list Thanks.


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2015)

Wayne said:


> 1852 Century Place



Thanks. I was one exit off and on the wrong side of I-85. I still can't recall where the PCUS headquarters were. I was thinking more down toward Decatur, but they might have been that far north.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks, Earl. The pastor of the PCA down there (John Bopp) announced it to the neighboring churches (what they do with it, of course, is their business). I leave it up to churches to announce such (it's not the ADS show but the ministry of that local church of which I am serving). I will try to give a PM to you, however, when I am back down that way (since you asked!). 

Peace,
Alan


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 19, 2015)

PCA merger with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church?


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## Romans922 (Sep 19, 2015)

The EPC is more likely.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 19, 2015)

I don't think that there are any American Presbyterian church unions seriously viable at this point.

Andrew, is that simply a bit of a despairing remark on your behalf? I assume so. I would agree that a segment of the PCA might have such a sentiment (union with the EPC). I suppose the question is how significant a segment. I would ask your opinion on that but that might derail the thread and properly belong elsewhere. I would especially be interested to know what Wayne would think of that, but, again, probably a different post.

Peace,
Alan


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## bookslover (Sep 19, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> The OPC and the PCA have never been in talks for organic union. What was on the table, and failed in the PCA then the OPC, was the process of the PCA inviting the OPC to join and be received. It was not a union in view but a sort of absorption. Neither denomination is interested in that today and organic union is quite unlikely at this point.



I've been in the OPC for nearly 20 years (since 1996) and I wouldn't be anywhere else. I've talked to numerous OPCers over the years who've said that the OPC really dodged a bullet when the attempts at Joining and Receiving failed. And you're right: it would not have been a matter of organic union. It would have been a case of the PCA "eating" the OPC, per the PCA's obsession with bigness.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 19, 2015)

For my part, I am thankful for the good relationship that we have with the PCA. 

As a long-time member of the Board of Trustees of Great Commission Publications (GCP), and serving currently as president, I am thankful for that relationship and the Christ-centered publications that GCP, as a joint ministry of the OPC and PCA, produces for use in our and other churches. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 19, 2015)

> The EPC is more likely



Do you think that is an option? ARP and PCA are much similar. The EPC is semi-Arminian and charismatic


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## Romans922 (Sep 19, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I don't think that there are any American Presbyterian church unions seriously viable at this point.
> 
> Andrew, is that simply a bit of a despairing remark on your behalf? I assume so. I would agree that a segment of the PCA might have such a sentiment (union with the EPC). I suppose the question is how significant a segment. I would ask your opinion on that but that might derail the thread and properly belong elsewhere. I would especially be interested to know what Wayne would think of that, but, again, probably a different post.
> 
> ...





Calvinbeza said:


> Do you think that is an option? ARP and PCA are much similar. The EPC is semi-Arminian and charismatic



Disparaging? No. It is what is being talked about by the so-called 'higher ups' and has been for years. That's the way they are wanting to move. And by their actions over the past few years seems to be growing traction. 

Also, the so-called National Parternship is heavily working to move things this way as well and they have been quite vocal as well in their desire.


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Disparaging?



He said 'despairing' not 'disparaging'. 

-----

It is clear that the reins of power are held by folks who we would have labeled as 'liberals' in the PCUS in the 1960s. So many of the new ideas and new directions sound very familiar.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 19, 2015)

The parallels are depressing; and not just those; a huge factor is the character of the congregant. The PCUS on a host of issues rotted from the grassroots up. Lord's day observance is the prime example of this. The PCUS year after year for 50 60 years bemoaned the lack of fidelity in reports from their Lord's day committee (yes! they actually had a GA committee to promote Lord's day observance). The PCA? After a good statement in 1976 not much. The PCA is basically antisabbatarian; about as unPresbyterian as you can get by any measurement. 


Edward said:


> It is clear that the reins of power are held by folks who we would have labeled as 'liberals' in the PCUS in the 1960s. So many of the new ideas and new directions sound very familiar.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks, Edward. I am glad that someone caught that I was not suggesting that Andrew was "disparaging" his own denomination, though he might be somewhat "despairing" if he's distressed about matters internal to it. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Romans922 (Sep 19, 2015)

Oh sorry Alan. Was reading to quickly apparently. Either way my response is still accurate.


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I was not suggesting that Andrew was "disparaging" his own denomination



Feel free to suggest it as to me, when appropriate. But yes, I wanted to make sure there was no miscommunication.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 20, 2015)

So an uunion between these denomination has little chance.


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## Jack K (Sep 20, 2015)

I concur that many in the OPC would be concerned that a merger would introduce wider doctrines and practices they would see as a threat to their Presbyterian ideals and culture. And many in the PCA would be concerned that a merger might tighten freedoms they enjoy within the PCA and bring in more pastors who try to tell them how they must run their churches. That's how many folks would think about it. And being the case, I don't think a merger is likely in the near future. The axiom that good fences make good neighbors seems to be the rule. It feels as if we can be better friends, and more cooperative with each other, as separate denominations.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 20, 2015)

And with broader evangelical churches? Evangelical Covenant Church or Evangelical Free Church. The ECC roots are Reformed. Isn't it?


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## Edward (Sep 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Evangelical Covenant Church



ECC is Lutheran in origin, congregational in origin, and non-confessional. They would seem a poor match for any Presbyterian group. Or are you asking whether the two Lutheran congregational churches might merge.


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## Jake (Sep 20, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I don't think that there are any American Presbyterian church unions seriously viable at this point.



The PRC (the NAPARC member, not the Dutch one) has called for unity with American FCC churches. You can see here: http://presbyterianreformed.org/2015/06/presbytery-meeting-minutes-june-2015/


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 20, 2015)

> asking whether the two Lutheran congregational churches might merge.



I know that Evangelical Free Ch and Evangelical Covenant Ch was one they separated in the 20th century but I don't know the differences. The ECC has fraternal relations with its Swedish mother church the Mission Covenant Church of Sweden wich is a Reformed church member of the World Communion of Reformed Churches.See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Covenant_Church_of_Sweden


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