# The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world



## Mayflower

What Does it mean, The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

*Revelation 13:8 *"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the *Lamb slain from the foundation of the world*." 

Does this vers shows that we are justified from eternity ?
I always thought that we are justified at moment in time, but elected in eternity ?

Any help !


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## Amazing Grace

Mayflower said:


> What Does it mean, The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
> 
> *Revelation 13:8 *"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the *Lamb slain from the foundation of the world*."
> 
> Does this vers shows that we are justified from eternity ?
> I always thought that we are justified at moment in time, but elected in eternity ?
> 
> Any help !



The book of life is that book which contains those elect in Christ. Christ being the first, has always been the surety of His children, given by the father. Also there is a big differnce in saying from eternity vs In eternity. 

There is NO remission without the shedding of blood. Christ did not bleed before the world was created.


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## Contra_Mundum

If this is the correct reading of the text, then this refers unquestionably to the _intent_ of God to have the Father send the Son to the cross as an atonement. It puts Redemption clearly in the mind of God before the world began, before Adam's sin, not contingent upon anything in or of this world.

There is some dispute over _what_ in the verse was "before the foundation of the world." Are "our names written" before the foundation, or is "the Lamb slain" before the foundation? For example, here is the ESV rendition:


> Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.


 And so also the ASV. The question would come down to the precise subject of the phrase: is it stating something directly regarding the pre-creation intent of the Atonement or of Election? Obviously, both are expressed in the verse with relation to one another. And both are also true.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Contra_Mundum said:


> If this is the correct reading of the text, then this refers unquestionably to the _intent_ of God to have the Father send the Son to the cross as an atonement. It puts Redemption clearly in the mind of God before the world began, before Adam's sin, not contingent upon anything in or of this world.
> 
> There is some dispute over _what_ in the verse was "before the foundation of the world." Are "our names written" before the foundation, or is "the Lamb slain" before the foundation? For example, here is the ESV rendition:
> 
> 
> 
> Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
> 
> 
> 
> And so also the ASV. The question would come down to the precise subject of the phrase: is it stating something directly regarding the pre-creation intent of the Atonement or of Election? Obviously, both are expressed in the verse with relation to one another. And both are also true.
Click to expand...


Are you a superlapsarian?


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## Contra_Mundum

In the last analysis, the decree of God is _*one*_.

Supra- and infra- are ways of breaking down and analyzing the one decree into manageable portions, logical and historic relations, etc. I'm with Dabney in saying that taking a hard position one way or the other is unfruitful.


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## JM

Truth Defended by Gill is about the supra vs. infra debate.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Contra_Mundum said:


> In the last analysis, the decree of God is _*one*_.
> 
> Supra- and infra- are ways of breaking down and analyzing the one decree into manageable portions, logical and historic relations, etc. I'm with Dabney in saying that taking a hard position one way or the other is unfruitful.



I heard R.J. Rushdoony say that the whole debate is pointless. I tend to agree.


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## Thomas2007

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I heard R.J. Rushdoony say that the whole debate is pointless. I tend to agree.



Was this is an audio file or something, or in one of his books? As I don't remember reading that, but would be interested in the audio file, if that is where you heard it. There is a ton of those on Chalcedon, but I struggle to make time to listen to them.

Thomas


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## Sydnorphyn

*justified?*



Mayflower said:


> What Does it mean, The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
> 
> *Revelation 13:8 *"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the *Lamb slain from the foundation of the world*."
> 
> Does this vers shows that we are justified from eternity ?
> I always thought that we are justified at moment in time, but elected in eternity ?
> 
> Any help !



Where does the concept of justification come from this verse?


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## Augusta

If he was slain from the foundations of the world, and he was slain for our justification, and our names were written in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world....


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## moral necessity

If you keep in mind that all of time (past, present, and future) exists before the eyes of God simultaneously, it all makes sense. God is outside of time, and all of eternity exists before him as one unit. The future Great White Throne judgment is as present tense to him as the initial creation of the heavens and the earth.

As the famous hymnwriter, Isaac Watts, said:

Nature and time quite naked lie
To thy immense survey,
From the formation of the sky,
To the great burning day.

Eternity, with all its years,
Stands present in thy view;
To thee there's nothing old appears -
Great God! there's nothing new!

Great God! how infinite art thou!
What worthless worms are we!
Let the whole race of creatures bow,
And pay their praise to thee!


From God's perspective he could say that we were justified from all eternity, just as he could say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God sees it all instantaneously. It's similar to the paradox that Christ could literally take my sins upon himself that I didn't commit until 2,000 years later, and that the sins I'll commit ten years from now were bore by him as well as the ones yesterday. But, from within the perspective of time, justification didn't take place until Christ literally died on the cross. And, from our perspective, justification is not realized by us until we are able to believe it by faith.

Blessings!


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## Reformed Covenanter

Thomas2007 said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard R.J. Rushdoony say that the whole debate is pointless. I tend to agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was this is an audio file or something, or in one of his books? As I don't remember reading that, but would be interested in the audio file, if that is where you heard it. There is a ton of those on Chalcedon, but I struggle to make time to listen to them.
> 
> Thomas
Click to expand...


It was on one of the free lectures that Chalcedon have made available; I am not sure which one exactly, but he said it in one of the first four:

The Chalcedon Foundation - Faith for All of Life


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## MW

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I heard R.J. Rushdoony say that the whole debate is pointless. I tend to agree.



How pointless is it to clarify the basis on which Adam and his posterity were ordained to eternal life? Rom. 5:14, Adam was a figure of Christ to come. Adam was ordained to fall in order to magnify the rich grace of Christ.


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## Reformed Covenanter

armourbearer said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard R.J. Rushdoony say that the whole debate is pointless. I tend to agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How pointless is it to clarify the basis on which Adam and his posterity were ordained to eternal life? Rom. 5:14, Adam was a figure of Christ to come. Adam was ordained to fall in order to magnify the rich grace of Christ.
Click to expand...


He thought it was above human reason; presently I do not know enough about the subject to comment any further.


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## MW

Daniel Ritchie said:


> He thought it was above human reason; I do not know enough about the subject to comment.



 Blessings!


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## Reformed Covenanter

armourbearer said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> He thought it was above human reason; I do not know enough about the subject to comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blessings!
Click to expand...


Thanks; I remember reading Robert Reymond's discussion of it in his Systematic Theology a while back. When he presented the infalapsarian view he nearly convinced me of it, but then he turned round and provided a defence of superlapsarianism that was so good I was almost converted!


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