# Don't Let This Happen To Your Church!



## NaphtaliPress (Jul 2, 2009)

This is wrong on *so *many levels. Give me the fixed palette of the regulative principle.

This was spotted in The Wave: Quarterly Magazine of the Anglican Mission (June 2009). The caption on the picture reads:

"Deacon Lisa Schwandt, Pastor of Worship Arts, plays the character of the Parable Princess for children's worship."

The attached article, "Worship Arts at HopePointe" says it all in the first paragraph:

"Creative expression through the ministry of Worship Arts has been part of the DNA of HopePointe since the Rev. Clark Lowenfield became Lead Pastor five years ago. 'When you begin a new church, you have a blank palette and endless possibilities to work from. Our people were really open to the arts coming in,' shares the Rev. Lisa Schwandt, Deacon and Pastor of Worship Arts." [emphasis added]


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## toddpedlar (Jul 2, 2009)

Looks like my daughters playing dress-up.


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## AThornquist (Jul 2, 2009)

What the  This is disgusting. Those flower sleeves totally clash with the pink tutu. ...Oh yeah, and the other stuff is bad too, whether or not you hold to the RPW.


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## LeeJUk (Jul 2, 2009)

R.......
...o....
......f....
.........l.....


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## Scott1 (Jul 2, 2009)

> Deacon Lisa Schwandt, Pastor of Worship Arts, plays the character of the Parable Princess for children's worship.



Let's see if we can dissect the multiple errors and compounded errors in this one sentence.

1) The office of Deacon is qualified as men (and, if married, their wives are examined as Deacon wives)
2) Deacons are not Pastors
3) "Lisa" is a good name, just not an authoritative sounding name
4) "Parable Princess" is not about God, and thus not a focus of true worship
5) The focus is on the music/acting talent of "Lisa's" impersonation, rather than our Triune God
6) "Worship Arts" is not a biblical function
7) Corporate worship is corporate worship, art is art
8) Children should not have separated "worship" (particularly under the pretenses "Lisa" is operating under)
9) God destroyed thousands in Israel for such abomination, though it seemed right "in their own eyes."

Pray for Lisa's repentance... that she will see how offensive this is to her God, and that she will find a biblical, reformed church to serve God in a way He has prescribed.

(I could not have articulated all this a year ago, praise God for Puritan Board)


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## Confessor (Jul 2, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> 1) The office of Deacon is qualified as men (and, if married, their wives are examined as Deacon wives)
> 2) Deacons are not Pastors
> 3) "Lisa" is just not an authoritative sounding name
> 4) "Parable Princess" is not about God, and thus not a focus of true worship
> ...



The possibilities are endless!


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## Michael Doyle (Jul 2, 2009)

Its a travesty....
Its a sham....
Its a mockery....





Its a traveshamockery.

But seriously, I agree Scott, this is a violation of Gods worship on so many levels. Where do you begin but to pray for the perpetrators.


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## Repre5entYHWH (Jul 2, 2009)

wow...

the church i left is having a 4th of July celebration this Sunday, i attended last year... it pastor talked about independence and our forefathers and being a christian nation... i think our scripture reading was replaced with the constitution reading. 

thanks be to God i am now worshipping with the RCUS


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## Mushroom (Jul 2, 2009)

Urk!


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## Knoxienne (Jul 2, 2009)

Eww


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## Christusregnat (Jul 2, 2009)

So, I envision this in N Ca Presbyterian some time soon. One ... ehem... church had a Beavis and ******** "worship" service a few years back in our Presbyterian... but I'm sure even B&B could easily see through Lisa the fairy god deacon/pastor/nutjob...

Cheers,


LOL, it didn't let me say Beavis's companions' name! ahahahahahah


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## Josiah (Jul 2, 2009)

At least it wasnt a man though. 



> One ... ehem... church had a Beavis and ******** "worship" service a few years back in our Presbyterian...



Is that for real?!


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## LadyCalvinist (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh my!   

That church needs to read William Ames _A Fresh Suit against Human Cereemonies in God's Worship_.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 2, 2009)

Pretty in Pink.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 2, 2009)

LadyCalvinist said:


> Oh my!
> 
> That church needs to read William Ames _A Fresh Suit against Human Cereemonies in God's Worship_.



Oh, she had on a pretty fresh suit, alright!


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## D. Paul (Jul 2, 2009)

*"Don't Let This Happen To Your Church!"*

OK...so what to do *when it already has*?

Someone asked me "Well, if the Arts have no place in the church, wouldn't it be wrong to engage in them period?"


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## Christusregnat (Jul 2, 2009)

Josiah said:


> At least it wasnt a man though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes.


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## PresbyDane (Jul 2, 2009)




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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 2, 2009)

God has given us all things richly to enjoy, in their place.
I'd change churches if this were to start in my church. 



D. Paul said:


> *"Don't Let This Happen To Your Church!"*
> 
> OK...so what to do *when it already has*?
> 
> Someone asked me "Well, if the Arts have no place in the church, wouldn't it be wrong to engage in them period?"


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## a mere housewife (Jul 2, 2009)

I richly enjoyed that picture here, for instance.


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## christiana (Jul 2, 2009)

Hmm, I've not been there but that 'church' is about 1/4 mile from my house. It was formerly a bible church but sold out to the Anglicans, who do have female 'ministers'. Sad that so many choose to do their own thing and avoid scriptural guidelines.


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## D. Paul (Jul 2, 2009)

It would seem that this is purely a "Reformed" issue. Churches in general give it no thought. However, since it is a Principle of the Church, how can the myriad congregations call themselves "churches" when violations concerning this (and the Lord's Day) are so evident?


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## jwithnell (Jul 2, 2009)

If you see worship as a blank slate to be filled by man (or woman as the case may be) then I suppose being open to the "arts" would seem innovative and refreshing. Sadly, this has nothing to do with honoring God.


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## Wayne (Jul 2, 2009)

Anyone thinking of taking the moniker "Parable Princess"? 
Hear tell there's a great avintar handy too, if anyone needs one.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 2, 2009)

1) She didn't have a tambourine.
2) She wasn't slaying people in the spirit.
3) She wasn't imitating a dog or staggering drunk "in the spirit".

It was bad, but could have been worse.


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## Archlute (Jul 2, 2009)

christusregnat said:


> So, I envision this in N Ca Presbyterian some time soon. One ... Ehem... Church had a Beavis and ******** "worship" service a few years back in our Presbyterian...



Wha?!?!?!?


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## Josiah (Jul 2, 2009)

Archlute said:


> christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > So, I envision this in N Ca Presbyterian some time soon. One ... Ehem... Church had a Beavis and ******** "worship" service a few years back in our Presbyterian...
> ...



Thats what I said...


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## Pilgrim72 (Jul 2, 2009)

Wow... Scary. 

Those poor kids. They're certain to be scarred for life...


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## Augusta (Jul 2, 2009)

Reminds me of my old church. Someone from my old church just put on her FB quote:


> I was talking to God today. . . .and I called him dude. Then I realized, I do that a lot. You know your relationship with God is tight when you can call him dude! ;-D


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## Scott1 (Jul 2, 2009)

D. Paul said:


> *"Don't Let This Happen To Your Church!"*
> 
> OK...so what to do *when it already has*?
> 
> Someone asked me "Well, if the Arts have no place in the church, wouldn't it be wrong to engage in them period?"



One way you might approach this is explaining there is nothing wrong with "arts", God gave people the gift of artistic expression. But they are not the center of corporate (public) worship. That may lead to a good engagement about the second commandment.


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## Curt (Jul 2, 2009)

LadyCalvinist said:


> Oh my!
> 
> That church needs to read William Ames _A Fresh Suit against Human Cereemonies in God's Worship_.



That congregation needs to get a clue.


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## Scott1 (Jul 2, 2009)

D. Paul said:


> It would seem that this is purely a "Reformed" issue. Churches in general give it no thought. However, since it is a Principle of the Church, how can the myriad congregations call themselves "churches" when violations concerning this (and the Lord's Day) are so evident?



I think a lot of churches would have problems with aspects of this. Many churches do not ordain women and among those that do officially, many local congregations do not. But there are other issues, too. Confusing the Pastorate with the Diaconate would violate most church polities. Others would not be comfortable with the fact there is not an effort to use biblical characters for children. There are others who might actually not like separating children to a separate "minister." Others are going to think, this is just plain weird.


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## Berean (Jul 2, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Reminds me of my old church. Someone from my old church just put on her FB quote:
> 
> 
> > I was talking to God today. . . .and I called him dude. Then I realized, I do that a lot. You know your relationship with God is tight when you can call him dude! ;-D



What relationship?


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## Pergamum (Jul 3, 2009)

Michael Doyle said:


> Its a travesty....
> Its a sham....
> Its a mockery....
> 
> ...



It's also ludicrous....

traveshamockuliculous


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## AThornquist (Jul 3, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Reminds me of my old church. Someone from my old church just put on her FB quote:
> 
> 
> > I was talking to God today. . . .and I called him dude. Then I realized, I do that a lot. You know your relationship with God is tight when you can call him dude! ;-D



That is unspeakably reprehensible. God is *not* our homeboy. If you think He is, then you know not the God of the Bible. 

(What a wonderful opportunity to practice being angry and yet not sinning! The not sinning part is where it's difficult.)


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## ClayPot (Jul 3, 2009)

I was reading Michael Horton's book on covenant theology yesterday and he said something significant about hearing God speak: in the Bible, when God spoke to the people directly, they were afraid. Think of the Israelites and Moses. The Israelites didn't want to hear God speak to them. It was only when they made their own gods that they were comfortable with "god" speaking to them.


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## Pergamum (Jul 3, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Michael Doyle said:
> 
> 
> > Its a travesty....
> ...



It is also tom-foolery!

It is a tomtraveshamockuliculousoolery!


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## Confessor (Jul 3, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > Reminds me of my old church. Someone from my old church just put on her FB quote:
> ...



Jonathan Edwards can be, though.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 3, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Reminds me of my old church. Someone from my old church just put on her FB quote:
> 
> 
> > I was talking to God today. . . .and I called him dude. Then I realized, I do that a lot. You know your relationship with God is tight when you can call him dude! ;-D



You know you're a presumptuous, blasphemous twit when you call God "dude"...


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## ClayPot (Jul 3, 2009)

Joshua said:


> You're all a bunch of Pharisees!
> 
> Here's this woman just worshipping God in her own way. So it's strange fire, so what? It's still fire! C'mon! You can tell by the wince on her face that she _really_ means it. Plus, I'm sure it blesses those little kids' hearts, not to mentioned gives some hearty laughter to the adults.
> 
> Bunch of legalists!!!



It's hard being a white washed tomb sometimes. Sigh.


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## ewenlin (Jul 3, 2009)

This is what happens when the bible is not taken seriously. Although many confess it to be infallible, inspired etc, it holds no real significance in how they live their lives much less run churches and conduct worship.

The bible is clearly not sufficient as a rule or guide here. Whatever goes on the blank slate right? The sad thing is that the people I've spoken to regarding RPW are totally convinced in the justification of their position and have no regard for biblical truth. In fact I've just only been called a legalist today by a friend I was trying to introduce to the RPW. It is quite heart breaking to watch these kind of things go on in a church but as all signs point toward, its here to stay.


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## jwithnell (Jul 3, 2009)

Um Josh, you are kidding right? Right?


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## Skyler (Jul 3, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> Um Josh, you are kidding right? Right?



Don't be ridiculous. Josh never kids. He engages in pointed satire.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jul 4, 2009)

The first three words that came to my mind upon seeing that picture was what the sheol....?

and I thought that because this is probably the only place that such an idea could have come from.

Come quickly, Lord.


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## jonmo (Jul 4, 2009)

This kind of thing makes me uncomfortbale but I went to the church's website and, in fairness to them, they have signed up to the Gafcon declaration, which is the sound element of worldwide Anglicanism. 

This specific church uses the term "pastor" very loosely - the sound & lighting guy and the photography are also listed as pastor (with virtually everyone else on the staff team), as listed on the ministry team pastors links. The church's mission statement is pretty reasonable as Anglican churches go:

HopePointe Church- The Woodlands, Texas


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## toddpedlar (Jul 4, 2009)

jonmo said:


> This kind of thing makes me uncomfortbale but I went to the church's website and, in fairness to them, they have signed up to the Gafcon declaration, which is the sound element of worldwide Anglicanism.
> 
> This specific church uses the term "pastor" very loosely - the sound & lighting guy and the photography are also listed as pastor (with virtually everyone else on the staff team), as listed on the ministry team pastors links. The church's mission statement is pretty reasonable as Anglican churches go:
> 
> HopePointe Church- The Woodlands, Texas



Their mission statement may be relatively sound (compared to other Anglican churches, which isn't saying much) but as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. What we see in that picture and the caption associated with it is evidence of a blatant denial of their actual commitment to several of the points listed in their mission statement.


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## William Price (Jul 4, 2009)

Just remember folks, anything in The Woodlands is not associated with Houston.


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## jonmo (Jul 4, 2009)

Yes, well I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt in the absence of having ever set foot in the church or met anyone who has. The crazy parable prophetness would do my head in and I couldn't listen that every week but the general belief statement of the particular congregation here appears to be reasonable.

And while we are on the subject of Anglican churches, there are hundreds of sound Anglican churches in the UK, Australia, Africa and elsewhere, so let's not dismiss them carte blanche. I know several Anglican churches in London with many reformed folks in them. You can argue whether or not John Stott was right or wrong to tell evangelicals to stay in the Church of England, but let's not dismiss the entire denomination.


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## jwithnell (Jul 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted by jwithnell View Post
> Um Josh, you are kidding right? Right?



Whewwwwww, all is right with the universe again


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## Christusregnat (Jul 5, 2009)

Archlute said:


> christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > So, I envision this in N Ca Presbyterian some time soon. One ... Ehem... Church had a Beavis and ******** "worship" service a few years back in our Presbyterian...
> ...



Are you upset that they deleted daehttuB's name from my post? 

Indeed. This actually happened. I think the (former) pastor left the church after being convicted of adultery (not that the one necessarily caused the other, since the one form of adultery was far more serious; I mean the kind against God); I can get the whole story if you're interested. Suffice it to say N Ca has had some problems in the past, but there are some good things happening as well.

Cheers,


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## toddpedlar (Jul 5, 2009)

jonmo said:


> Yes, well I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt in the absence of having ever set foot in the church or met anyone who has. The crazy parable prophetness would do my head in and I couldn't listen that every week but the general belief statement of the particular congregation here appears to be reasonable.



Again, though, the fact that that church has the belief statement it does is rather meaningless, given their demonstrated practices. The words have no weight when many of them are denied in what we observe. It isn't as though this woman is some anomaly - she's an officially recognized deacon in the church, and seems from what is described to be a regular part of their worship services. Hence a number of their statements of belief are denied explicitly from the get-go - and we haven't even explored what is taught from the pulpit.


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