# Shaken



## D. Paul (Jun 21, 2004)

If ever any of you venture into shall we say [i:56f0af78b4]antagonistic[/i:56f0af78b4] forums i.e. [u:56f0af78b4]ExChristian.net[/u:56f0af78b4]:no: how do you keep from being shaken? It really does seem sometimes that they have valid criticisms of Christianity. I can always regain my composure by getting back into Owen, Warfield...

but don't any of you have difficulty resolving some of the issues of the atheist/agnostic? I get so discouraged after reviewing them but I don't want to bury my head and pretend they don't exist. They expect most Christains to NOT have answers. Dr. Matt???


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 21, 2004)

I can definitely relate to what you are saying. This may sound circular, but simply put, what reassures me is faith. Think about how many everyday things we are &quot;certain&quot; of that we really are just taking by faith: When you're taking a walk, it's only by trust that you know a car isn't going to run you over. When you're sleeping, it's only by trust that you know your parents, roommate or spouse isn't going to take your life. When you eat fast food, it's only by faith that you know they didn't put anthrax in it.

1 John 3:20 (ESV) reads, &quot;By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.&quot; This mention of our heart condemning us would include its condemning us for the sin of doubt. And since the Spirit bears witness to my spirit that the Gospel is true and the Scriptures are divinely inspired, I am secure even when I come up with some seemingly rational doubt in my mind. Furthermore, if we think about it enough, there usually is also a direct logical argument refuting it; but even when there is not, we have the witness of the Spirit to our hearts and the security that is not based on our brilliance or strength, but solely on God.

In Christ,


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## staythecourse (Jun 21, 2004)

D. Paul,

As a brother I would tell you not to go in areas if they will undermine your faith. It's not bad to know your limits and we shouldn't take on too much.

I could make a list of spiritual topics I would be foolish to take on. If you do want to address something - take them on in small bits. 

Also, what is the purpose? - are you addressing your own doubts to Christiananity(which is fine because God and the Word will win!) or are you planning to go into these websites - a lost cause if you ask me - to convert people?

Use your time wisely!


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 21, 2004)

The thing to remember when talking to those them is simply to attack their false assumptions. Their arguments are built on pure speculation. Atheists/agnostics/liberals all assume that the Bible is flawed and corrupted, that evolution is true etc. Simply attack their assumptions with their own &quot;empirical methods.&quot; 
This is why Machen dealt such devastating blows to the liberals. And why Bahnsen &quot;tore up&quot; the atheists. Unelievers all build up their arguments on false assumptions. Just tear down their foundations and put them on the defensive.


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## SmokingFlax (Jun 22, 2004)

Patrick,

You mentioned that &quot;Machen dealt such devastating blows to the liberals&quot; ...where can I get ahold of these devastating items? Books? I'd like to see this.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 22, 2004)

&quot;Christainity and Liberalism&quot; by machen, its about $8.

Why not jsut ask them why THEY are burrying their heads in an &quot;agmiostic and atheisitic&quot; forum when they could be writing against soem of the great works that bury their &quot;views&quot; in the dust? 

If you have not mastered the information it is intimidating to talk with others, on any level. They almost never do any work themselves, and usually are &quot;opinionated&quot; without substance. 

Was there a particular article or something that made you aware of your feelings in this way?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 22, 2004)

[quote:89b2f4d903][i:89b2f4d903]Originally posted by SmokingFlax[/i:89b2f4d903]
Patrick,

You mentioned that &quot;Machen dealt such devastating blows to the liberals&quot; ...where can I get ahold of these devastating items? Books? I'd like to see this. [/quote:89b2f4d903]
Matt already noted [i:89b2f4d903]Christianity and Liberalism[/i:89b2f4d903]. There are several others. [i:89b2f4d903]The Origin of Paul's Religion[/i:89b2f4d903], [i:89b2f4d903]What is Faith[/i:89b2f4d903], and his magnum opus, [i:89b2f4d903]The Virgin Birth of Christ[/i:89b2f4d903]. All are excellent works. The Virgin Birth is out of print but can be found online used. It should be reprinted soon though from what I understand.


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## luvroftheWord (Jun 22, 2004)

D. Paul,

Perhaps if you shared with us some of the arguments the atheists were raising we would be able to help you. I know I would be more than happy to talk about it. A few years ago when I was just beginning my undergrad work, I began to be faced with criticisms of Christianity for the first time and for about 3 years straight I was severely shaken. I lived in a constant state of doubt and despair with my stomach constantly in knots. So I can understand what you are feeling. Those times were some of the darkest times in my entire life. I shed many tears and lost many hours of sleep thinking through the many different arguments and criticisms offered by atheists. One of the best things I ever did was talk about my doubts with other believers, those that I trusted and who I believed were intelligent enough to help me. It may be that you don't feel comfortable talking to us in the PB, but I would recommend you find somebody you can trust. Don't hold what you're thinking and feeling inside. If you'd rather not say anything publicly, then you can U2U me or somebody else here if you'd like.

I feel ya, though, brother. I am saying a prayer for you.


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## D. Paul (Jun 22, 2004)

Thank you all. 
It's not so much their alleged contradictions in the Bible that bother me as much as it is their use of history against us. (I suppose anyone can come up with quotes from somebody to solidify a position) 

Others: So why ARE there so many denominations w/ each one claiming to have &quot;truth&quot;? Personally, I am becoming more and more convinced that Doctrines of Grace are the only sound &quot;system&quot; of belief. There simply cannot be 10 differing yet correct interpretations of passages! WHen they bring this up it is to say basically &quot;No one knows!&quot;

I've read Machen's Christianity and Liberalism, Sproul's Why are there Atheists, Nicholl's THe Question of God and Johnson's The Right Questions. I feel I'm well armed but still get deeply discouraged at their ridicule. I can't simply ignore this for I think it is foolish for the Christian to neglect developing answers. I refuse to be the &quot;Ignorant, pie-in-the-sky, cliche' ridden morons&quot; they love to call &quot;Fundies.

E. Craig, I would LOVe to spend time talking about our similarities. I've come to admire your posts. Patrick Severson, thanks for your help also. And Dr. Matt...well, yours has been my home page for months now.


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## luvroftheWord (Jun 23, 2004)

That's cool Paul. If you want, you can send me a U2U or send me an email (the link is below). I'd love to tell you how the Lord brought me to where I'm at in my faith and my confidence in the God of Israel.


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 23, 2004)

D. Paul,

First things first, I haven't seen you post much before, so welcome!

I'm a college student (are you?) in a history major, as you can tell by my signature. And more than anything in a debate, I hate arguments from history, as if history meant anything in the discussion of ideas alone. History can have a major impact, but in a debate on ideas, the ideas must be judged, not their histories. Of course, if an idea has a chronic failure like communism, then that certainly can have some bearing on the idea, but those failures cannot refute the idea.

As far as the interior of Christianity, history can also be important as far as synods levelled against a particular heresy (synod of Dort, the agreements at Chalcedon), or as understanding orthodoxy, or whatever. In that sense history is extremely important. But those agreements or beliefs are the result of theological practice that could be replicated today.

How often do the atheists talk about their own histories? I've never seen an atheist talk about the violent Soviet League of the Militant Godless, or perhaps the atheist undertones of the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution. Or perhaps the Soviet answer to the Prague Spring in Czechoslovakia 1968? Stalin's abuse of human rights?

Atheists love to play on the faults of professing Christian history as if they have none of their own.

Anyways, feel free to IM me, the link is below.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 22, 2004)

I can relate to this. I used to visit and in a way still do visit a game forum which can be very hostile to Christians. (http://www.starkingdoms.com) You do not have to be on the forums long before you realise how some factions are strongly antiChristian.

A few years ago two of us decided we should be there to counter the slanderous remarks people made against Christ and that while we may never get anywhere debating with the atheists, pagans and agnostics themselves then atleast if someone who was visiting and never joined in came along, they would see answers to all the accusations.

But yes my faith has been shaken a lot but it grows me because they you have to find answers etc... and not just sit at your computer chair all day and play games  It is good training. What is worse is Religious Studies 101 at University... I am never doing that again. I am two weeks into it and am already shaken about uzzled: I take conselation in the fact the lecturer uses cheap attacks on Christianity which means he cant come up with any good attacks but they still wear you down after 2 hours of listening to them. Even more funny was when he made a refrence to Jesus being born in Jerusalem


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## RamistThomist (Jul 22, 2004)

I understand Eoh about the Religious studies class. I go to a [quote:2d992eaf85]Christian[/quote:2d992eaf85] college. We had to read the [i:2d992eaf85]Oxford Companion to the Bible[/i:2d992eaf85]. That might qualify for worst book ever written. In my opinion, however, university professors mount the most cliched attacks against Christianity. It is people like NT Wright, who use Scripture and attack liberals yet deny historic justification, that leave you speechless.

Regards


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## Theophilus (Jul 28, 2004)

[quote:231f075306="D. Paul"]If ever any of you venture into shall we say [i:231f075306]antagonistic[/i:231f075306] forums i.e. [u:231f075306]ExChristian.net[/u:231f075306]:no: how do you keep from being shaken? It really does seem sometimes that they have valid criticisms of Christianity. I can always regain my composure by getting back into Owen, Warfield...

but don't any of you have difficulty resolving some of the issues of the atheist/agnostic? I get so discouraged after reviewing them but I don't want to bury my head and pretend they don't exist. They expect most Christains to NOT have answers. Dr. Matt???[/quote:231f075306]
Matt;

We must remember that we are engaging in a conflict between two antitheses, i.e., two mutually exclusive worldviews. The Christian worldview has as it's foundation the authoritative self-disclosure of God in scripture: the "anti-theistic" worldview (all non-Christian systems) has man and his autonomous reason as the final reference point for truth and possibility.

In apologetic encounters, we must remember that there is no "neutral" common ground upon which our assualt can be conducted. We must reason in such a way that does not compromise our own submission to the absolute/exclusive authority of God's word while exposing the anti-theist arguments as irrational and self-defeating.

It is easy to become distracted by the unbeliever's assaults on the alleged contradictions of scripture or the inconsistent behavior of professing Christians throughout history; but we are not defending the interpretation of scripture or the personal actions of particular believers. We are defending "the faith, once for all delivered to the saints," and we can only do this by conforming our own reasoning to what that faith says.

Unbelievers are not misinformed or ignorant; they KNOW God (Rom. 1:18 ff) and they are in active rebellion against him, seeking to suppress this knowledge to justify their own sin. They are lying to themselves and they this everytime they make a statement about any fact, which knowledge is inexplicable from any anti-theistic starting-point.

This consistency on our part is not easy and takes a mature faith as well as experience in apologetics.


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## Theophilus (Jul 28, 2004)

[quote:2455b4735f="D. Paul"]So why ARE there so many denominations w/ each one claiming to have &quot;truth&quot;? Personally, I am becoming more and more convinced that Doctrines of Grace are the only sound &quot;system&quot; of belief. There simply cannot be 10 differing yet correct interpretations of passages! WHen they bring this up it is to say basically &quot;No one knows![/quote:2455b4735f]

First, do not debate theology with unbelievers - they are self-deceived and are not seeking knowledge.

Second, and more important, does the bible provide an answer to your questions? Not necessarily a single text, but the SYTEM OF TRUTH revealed in scripture. 

This was the genius of the Puritans, i.e., their ability to reason FROM scripture, i.e., to take the general doctrines and apply them to specific questions. You need to settle this yourself before you try to argue with others.


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## luvroftheWord (Jul 28, 2004)

Theophilus,

First of all, welcome to the board. Are you a friend of Paul's?

Also, be sure to include the proper info in the signature line of your posts. This is a board rule to help the community aspect of our board.

I greatly look forward to your contributions to the board.


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## LarryCook (Aug 8, 2004)

the


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## Authorised (Aug 12, 2004)

The only arguments that really bother me are when atheists pit two different accounts of the same event against each other, especially in the Chronicles versus Samuel and Kings. What bothers me more is when "apologists" assert there are "copyist errors" in the Bible. While I recognize this could happen, there are manuscripts which support the alternate correct reading. That answer is sadly, trite, and even moreso shallow. 

Dr. Kent Hovind, despite his bad theology and sometimes sketchy scientific assertions, has some good articles on his website about Bible difficulties.


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