# Just How Bad are These Evangelical Outreach Techniques/Slogans?



## Theoretical (Jan 17, 2007)

http://www.godlovestheworld.com/ - the Four Spiritual Laws

http://www.thegoodnews.org/FriendsForever/Index.asp - From the SBC website.

The reason I post these is that it is only now, after being removed from much of the hoopla and jargon of evangelicalism that I really now can see the issues with things like these. Previously, I just saw the Arminianism and the "God Loves Everyone, but Is Pretty Helpless" mantra. Especially in the latter "series" I linked to, I think both are outright Semi-Pelagianism by the specific way they approach man trying to reach God. Am I missing something or reading too much into these?

My main reason for asking is that even just a year ago, I didn't see too much wrong with it other than the standard Arminian-Calvinist differences and language. The fact I'm only now really seeing some of the worst of it *so I think* leads me to wonder what else I'm missing in this sort of stuff.

It definitely does show how subtle some error can be in the Church, especially when it becomes a sacred cow like the 4 Spiritual Laws.


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## Ivan (Jan 17, 2007)

Here is the first paragraph to the SBC link above:

*"Hi, I'm Jack, a happy Christian. Let me share with you the best, happiest, and most beneficial experience of my life. If you read and respond positively to this dialogue, I guarantee that you will be glad. God can speak to you! You can have ETERNAL LIFE! The benefits are incredible! Don't miss this OPPORTUNITY! Not only will you and I become friends forever, but you will find the BEST FRIEND IN THE UNIVERSE!"*

Amazing!

It sounds like a sales pitch. Kinda embarrasing for me. Believe me, I don't subscribe to such tripe. 

Jack, the happy Christian, has got a deal for you!....the benefits are great!...don't miss this opportunity!

Makes me want to


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## Theoretical (Jan 17, 2007)

Ivan said:


> Here is the first paragraph to the SBC link above:
> 
> *"Hi, I'm Jack, a happy Christian. Let me share with you the best, happiest, and most beneficial experience of my life. If you read and respond positively to this dialogue, I guarantee that you will be glad. God can speak to you! You can have ETERNAL LIFE! The benefits are incredible! Don't miss this OPPORTUNITY! Not only will you and I become friends forever, but you will find the BEST FRIEND IN THE UNIVERSE!"*
> 
> ...


Yeah, I noticed that too. I showed these to a now-Christian, former atheist friend and her immediate reaction was visceral disgust, and it wouldn't surprise me to see that elsewhere, given the atheists and agnostics in my circle.


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## Ivan (Jan 17, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too. I showed these to a now-Christian, former atheist friend and her immediate reaction was visceral disgust, and it wouldn't surprise me to see that elsewhere, given the atheists and agnostics in my circle.



It's idiotic. Makes me want to stay at Wal-Mart all my life!

I have to admit, when I read what was on the webpage it made me wonder. All I can do is be a faithful witness where I am. But suffice it to say, I find the SBC webpage very troubling.


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## Chris (Jan 17, 2007)

Last summer I took a break from work and went to Asia to teach for a couple of months. 

The school I was at had about a gazillion tracts made available to students. 

The most popular was the 'happy' tract. It was pushed because students seemed to respond the best to it. It basically outlined how Jesus would make everyone's life happier. 

None of this really, truly bothered me at the time (This was May-June. I became a Calvinist in February and was still struggling with Limited Atonement at the time - it was logical, I just hadn't accepted it yet, and as such, I hadn't had all my other modern-baptist theology come crumbling down yet).

One thing that bothered me: 

Another volunteer there strolled though one day bragging about how she had just led someoen to Jesus. I was thrilled, so I asked how it happened. She explained how she was teaching a class on 'the purpose driven life' and she started the introductory session by telling the class that God didn't have a puprose for anyone's life unless they were a Christian, so the girl said she wanted to be a Christian, and prayed a prayer. 

Anyway, at the time, it annoyed me. As time has went on, it botheres me more and more, to the point that it makes me sick to think of it. 

I can't tell you how many times I have sat and wondered if that person truly got saved. i can find no peace about the matter, except to leave it in God's hands.


edit: Trevor, do you ever sleep????


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## ajrock2000 (Jan 17, 2007)

wow...that is just sickening to look at...especially the second one  

I find it typical that when they say (first link)
"When we receive Christ, we receive a new birth (Read John 3:1-8)" 
They don't type out that passage as they do all the other verses, which tells about the wind blowing where it may, so are those who are born of the spirit. And of course, just like all the others, they leave out v13 of John 1.


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## Theoretical (Jan 17, 2007)

Ivan said:


> It's idiotic. Makes me want to stay at Wal-Mart all my life!
> 
> I have to admit, when I read what was on the webpage it made me wonder. All I can do is be a faithful witness where I am. But suffice it to say, I find the SBC webpage very troubling.


It grieves me a lot to see a denomination where lots of thoroughly faithful brothers and sisters in Christ reside also have this sort of nonsense being propagated so heavily. Much of modern evangelicalism could best be called the "Cult of the Pathetic" I'd say.


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## calgal (Jan 17, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too. I showed these to a now-Christian, former atheist friend and her immediate reaction was visceral disgust, and it wouldn't surprise me to see that elsewhere, given the atheists and agnostics in my circle.



Sounds like my atheist and pagan friends' reactions.   The road to hell certainly is paved with good intentions.....


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## larryjf (Jan 17, 2007)

This picture from the SBC website ...





makes it look like you get part of the way to God by self-effort.


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## Theoretical (Jan 17, 2007)

larryjf said:


> This picture from the SBC website ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I noticed that too. It seems to scream blatant Semi-Pelagianism.


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## Ivan (Jan 17, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too. It seems to scream blatant Semi-Pelagianism.



I can tell you that they would say that they do not believe that and for the most part I believe that's true. No Southern Baptist pastor that I know of would say we work part of our way to heaven, although I can see how that graphic would give that impression.

Just another very bad idea not thought through.


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## Ivan (Jan 17, 2007)

BTW, I've never seen this graphic before. It's a stupid one!


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 17, 2007)

Ivan said:


> Here is the first paragraph to the SBC link above:
> 
> *"Hi, I'm Jack, a happy Christian. Let me share with you the best, happiest, and most beneficial experience of my life. If you read and respond positively to this dialogue, I guarantee that you will be glad. God can speak to you! You can have ETERNAL LIFE! The benefits are incredible! Don't miss this OPPORTUNITY! Not only will you and I become friends forever, but you will find the BEST FRIEND IN THE UNIVERSE!"*
> 
> ...


Remove the word God and it sounds like the dozen or so home business junk mails I delete daily from my in-box.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 17, 2007)

Most of these methods are just shortcuts for true evangelism, which involves actually getting to know people and their situation, not just handing them a tract and a 2-bit prayer. True evangelism usually takes a long time of seed planting and prayer. There are those rare exceptions but most come to Christ through friends who take the time to get involved with them and actually love them and eventually bring them under the preaching of the Word.


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## elnwood (Jan 17, 2007)

> This diagram illustrates that God is holy and man is sinful. A great gulf separates the two. The arrows illustrate that a man is continually trying to reach God and the abundant life through his own efforts, such as a good life, philosophy, or religion - but he inevitably fails.



This is from the Four Spiritual Laws. It's similar to the bridge example. The problem with the diagram that goes with this is that the arrows are pointing the wrong direction.


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## bowhunter1961 (Jan 17, 2007)

the ones where they imply that Christ is sheepishly standing at the door realy makes me ill...cos its more like He kicks in the door where you dead heart was , invading you, giving you life and conforming you to die to self.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

Ivan said:


> Here is the first paragraph to the SBC link above:
> 
> *"Hi, I'm Jack, a happy Christian. Let me share with you the best, happiest, and most beneficial experience of my life. If you read and respond positively to this dialogue, I guarantee that you will be glad. God can speak to you! You can have ETERNAL LIFE! The benefits are incredible! Don't miss this OPPORTUNITY! Not only will you and I become friends forever, but you will find the BEST FRIEND IN THE UNIVERSE!"*



I highly recommend that latest discussion on _The White Horse Inn_. The program is called _Truth and Arrogance_ and can be downloaded here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the_white_horse_inn/

I had never really considered the similarities in natural religion before in the way they draw this out. Men understand, very naturally, the "you must do" but what they repress is "God has done".

The above presentation of the "Gospel" is arrogant. What does it tell the listener: Believe the Gospel because of what it has done _for me_. Look at me. Look at my life. Trust Christ because of my example.

The Gospel is not therapy. It is not Chicken soup for the soul. The Gospel is a proclamation of what God _has done_. It is a historical declaration that Christ came, died, and rose again and proved Himself to be God incarnate. It is something outside of us to be believed upon.

The type of herald above is indistinguishable from the Mormon prayer that causes a burning in the bosom that confirms its truth. Truth is found and confirmed within the human heart in such scenarios. This type of Arminian theology can give no expression as to why the Mormon's burning in the bosom should be rejected in favor of his own "heart belief".


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## elnwood (Jan 17, 2007)

Rather than just sit around criticizing other's evangelical material, techniques, and methods ... does anyone here have a tract or something similar that they would recommend for evangelism?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Rather than just sit around criticizing other's evangelical material, techniques, and methods ... does anyone here have a tract or something similar that they would recommend for evangelism?



http://www.baptistchurch.jp/gospel.html (MacArthur's not mine but I put it on our site)

I'll attach a tract my former Church had too.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 17, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Most of these methods are just shortcuts for true evangelism, which involves actually getting to know people and their situation, not just handing them a tract and a 2-bit prayer. True evangelism usually takes a long time of seed planting and prayer. There are those rare exceptions but most come to Christ through friends who take the time to get involved with them and actually love them and eventually bring them under the preaching of the Word.



 &  

I try to get to know those around me.

I believe it was Glenn Kaiser that once said,"Being a Christian means you begin to care about the people around you that are hurting!"


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Rather than just sit around criticizing other's evangelical material, techniques, and methods ... does anyone here have a tract or something similar that they would recommend for evangelism?



Incidentally, Don, the OP asked for a critique of the approaches. Hence, critiques were offered. There is nothing wrong with highlighting error. Paul's Epistles teach more about correct doctrine by putting down false doctrine. Some things are learned best by negation especially since there are so many "natural" ideas that flow out of the sinful human heart that need to be rejected as false.


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## elnwood (Jan 17, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> The above presentation of the "Gospel" is arrogant. What does it tell the listener: Believe the Gospel because of what it has done _for me_. Look at me. Look at my life. Trust Christ because of my example.



And yet that is exactly how I came to faith. I heard the gospel, and yet I was not saved until after I witnessed faithful Christians living out the gospel.

If that presentation is arrogant, then Paul was very arrogant, because he instructed others to follow his example. I recently taught a bible study on Philippians 3.

[Bible]philippians 3:18[/bible]

In 1 Thessalonians, Paul, Silvanus and Timothy's example was effective to the Thessalonians along with the sharing of the gospel.

[bible]1 thessalonians 1:5-7[/bible]

Holding up ourselves as examples, both for unbelievers and believers, is not arrogance because our example as Christians points to Christ.

[bible]1 corinthians 11:1[/bible]


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## elnwood (Jan 17, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Incidentally, Don, the OP asked for a critique of the approaches. Hence, critiques were offered. There is nothing wrong with highlighting error. Paul's Epistles teach more about correct doctrine by putting down false doctrine. Some things are learned best by negation especially since there are so many "natural" ideas that flow out of the sinful human heart that need to be rejected as false.



Oh, I know that. I wasn't criticizing the criticism; I even offered up my own. But don't you agree that holding up positive examples would be beneficial for this discussion?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Most of these methods are just shortcuts for true evangelism, which involves actually getting to know people and their situation, not just handing them a tract and a 2-bit prayer. True evangelism usually takes a long time of seed planting and prayer. There are those rare exceptions but most come to Christ through friends who take the time to get involved with them and actually love them and eventually bring them under the preaching of the Word.





MrMerlin777 said:


> &
> 
> I try to get to know those around me.
> 
> I believe it was Glenn Kaiser that once said,"Being a Christian means you begin to care about the people around you that are hurting!"



 by the way. I'm gratified that the new pastor at my Church understands the defects in the Evangelism approach that predominates the SBC. We were talking about this last night at Wed Night Bible Study. It is very telling that, after 50 years on the island of Okinawa, there is not a single whole Japanese family that attends our Church. The only Japanese that attend are women - no men. After *50 years*!

Much of that has to do with a faulty premise that is commonplace among many that I share my faith, get the person to make a decision, and I have evangelized. I've shared before that there are those that claim that they know of several people that are supposedly "believers" now from the Franklin Graham Festival in November. None of them, however, come to Church. Almost all of them are still participating in the normal rituals of Buddhism and Shintoism that pervade Japanese culture.

Evangelism has to be understood within the larger context of a healthy Church body that is nurturing households of faith so that members are healthy and strong in the faith and leadership grows from within. When a Church is vital from the ministry of good Pastors then it naturally begins to grow because things like tracts or sharing the Gospel along the way bring people into a well kept garden. 

Most Churches, unfortunately, resemble neglected gardens where weeds are allowed to flourish and folks just keep throwing seed on the ground expecting a harvest.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 17, 2007)

> *"Hi, I'm Jack, a happy Christian. Let me share with you the best, happiest, and most beneficial experience of my life. If you read and respond positively to this dialogue, I guarantee that you will be glad. God can speak to you! You can have ETERNAL LIFE! The benefits are incredible! Don't miss this OPPORTUNITY! Not only will you and I become friends forever, but you will find the BEST FRIEND IN THE UNIVERSE!"*



*But WAIT, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour RIGHT NOW, we'll throw in a BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT for ...wait for it...wait for it...ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!! How can you STAND THERE and not JUMP at this OFFER???? - c'mon - operators are STANDING BY!!!!!!!!*


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

elnwood said:


> And yet that is exactly how I came to faith. I heard the gospel, and yet I was not saved until after I witnessed faithful Christians living out the gospel.


Unless salvation is by something other than faith alone, then, No, you were not saved by witnessing Christians live out the Gospel. You were saved by a faith, gifted by God, which rested on Christ's merits. I understand what you're trying to say. I'm not negating the importance of living lives that bear the fruit of our conversion but the fruit is not the object of our witness. Christ is the object.



> If that presentation is arrogant, then Paul was very arrogant, because he instructed others to follow his example. I recently taught a bible study on Philippians 3.
> 
> [Bible]philippians 3:18[/bible]
> 
> ...



There is a difference between heralding the fruit of the Christian life and for Paul to say "follow me as I follow Christ" and the type of "witness" that is presented in the excerpt.

Paul never points to his heart and says "Look how happy I am. My life is wonderful now. Your life can be wonderful too." His obedience, his faith, his running is toward an object which he never fails to herald. He never "gives his testimony" to put his life on display as an object to be treated as "I want to believe so I can have a life like that" but, rather, when he infrequently uses himself as an example it is always as an arrow to Christ. 

Testimonies like the one I critiqued stop at themselves. They don't point, objectively, to a work of God. As I stated before, there is nothing in that presentation that is distinctly Christian. It focuses on the heart of a man and how he feels and not upon faith that rests on an object.


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## elnwood (Jan 17, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Unless salvation is by something other than faith alone, then, No, you were not saved by witnessing Christians live out the Gospel. You were saved by a faith, gifted by God, which rested on Christ's merits. I understand what you're trying to say. I'm not negating the importance of living lives that bear the fruit of our conversion but the fruit is not the object of our witness. Christ is the object.



I agree. I very deliberately did not say that I was saved by witnessing Christians live out the gospel. Neither I nor the tracts above teach this. But God causes all things to work towards his glory, and the witness of other Christians was clearly a means he used to bring about my salvation.



SemperFideles said:


> There is a difference between heralding the fruit of the Christian life and for Paul to say "follow me as I follow Christ" and the type of "witness" that is presented in the excerpt.
> 
> Paul never points to his heart and says "Look how happy I am. My life is wonderful now. Your life can be wonderful too." His obedience, his faith, his running is toward an object which he never fails to herald. He never "gives his testimony" to put his life on display as an object to be treated as "I want to believe so I can have a life like that" but, rather, when he infrequently uses himself as an example it is always as an arrow to Christ.
> 
> Testimonies like the one I critiqued stop at themselves. They don't point, objectively, to a work of God. As I stated before, there is nothing in that presentation that is distinctly Christian. It focuses on the heart of a man and how he feels and not upon faith that rests on an object.



I think we may be arguing different points. I think Paul did deliberately point to his obedience and faith, and speaks of how his obedience galvanized the other believers (Philippians 1:13). Therefore, I must insist that holding up yourself as an example is not selfish or arrogant.

Perhaps your main concern is not with examples per se, but the example that is being held up. I'll agree with you with this one. Paul was not holding up himself as an example because he was *happy*. He was, after all, persecuted and in prison when he wrote to the Philippians. In this sense, the tract is flawed. On the other hand, Paul's contentedness in his circumstances was clearly something Paul held up to the Philippian believers to follow.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

The only distinction I would also draw out is that we're also talking about the difference between the heralding of the Gospel and teaching within a body of believers. We're talking, properly, about the Gospel call in this thread where the passages cited are admonitions to existing disciples. In the presentation of the Gospel, there are no examples of people pointing to their own lives. The Gospel is heralded as a command to repent and believe.

Yes, we are commanded to live quiet and obedient lives that bears witness to the fruit of who we are in Christ but people are not converted by looking at us. The person may ask you "what hope lies within you?", which is a good thing if Christ's work is so evident within us to set us apart. When we answer the question, however, we're not pointing to our example but share the hope: Christ died and rose again.

It is hardly possible for Paul to say to an unbeliever: imitate me as I imitate Christ. The unbeliever has not believed. The Gospel precedes those examples given to _disciples_ to help them see a mature example of fruit bearing. The fruit of a believer creates interest in some unbelievers but you cannot ask the unbeliever to imitate your fruit because they're in Adam. Further, your example is not an object they can rest upon.

Thus, I don't dispute that language of "imitate me" exists but I dispute that it is used in presentation to unbelievers.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 17, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> *But WAIT, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour RIGHT NOW, we'll throw in a BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT for ...wait for it...wait for it...ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!! How can you STAND THERE and not JUMP at this OFFER???? - c'mon - operators are STANDING BY!!!!!!!!*



      
      

Do I get a Sledgeomatic and a set of Ginsu knives as well?


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## toddpedlar (Jan 17, 2007)

larryjf said:


> This picture from the SBC website ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems to me to be somewhat more accurate this should be, rather, 






sorry for the rapid rendering, but I just had to post this. The original
picture, as kind of an "evangelistic effort" makes me


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 17, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Seems to me to be somewhat more accurate this should be, rather,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Get rid of the self effort and replace it with the Tower of Babel.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 17, 2007)




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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


>


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## Davidius (Jan 17, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> It is hardly possible for Paul to say to an unbeliever: imitate me as I imitate Christ. The unbeliever has not believed. The Gospel precedes those examples given to _disciples_ to help them see a mature example of fruit bearing. The fruit of a believer creates interest in some unbelievers but you cannot ask the unbeliever to imitate your fruit because they're in Adam. Further, your example is not an object they can rest upon.
> 
> Thus, I don't dispute that language of "imitate me" exists but I dispute that it is used in presentation to unbelievers.



Exactly. "Follow me as I follow Christ" was not within the context of preaching to unbelievers.

Sometimes I get tired of the push for "friendship evangelism," although I see the importance of being kind, loving, honorable and respectable people to the world around us. The fact is, Jesus said the world would hate us and I don't like the idea that I need to be someone's friend for six months before sharing the Gospel with him in order that his 'heart might be softened' and that it will be 'easier' for him to accept the Gospel message. He can see me do good works all day, but faith comes by _hearing_ the word of Christ.


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 17, 2007)

Rich,

I’m looking forward to that installment of the WHI, have but have not listened yet. Dr. Norman Nagel makes a great point concerning man’s seeking God in general and trying to “find Jesus” in particular Vs. God’s seeking us that really drove home what idolatry is and what the Gospel is.

The question was, “If God is God as people think about him, then he’s going to be everywhere all the time. That’s how people normally think. But is the omnipresence of God necessarily good news for us?”

Dr. Nagel’s answer was clarion and very eye opening:

“Well the fact that God is every where leaves us in the position of having to hunt him down and find him. And if you are looking for something, you really wouldn’t know that you’ve found it unless you knew what you were looking for. That’s the problem with ‘hunting for God’. It’s not as if we know what God is like and then when we find him (and) we (then) say, “Ahhh, here he is”, that would be fulfilling what we expect God to be like. The distance between us and God is not something we cover, we don’t find God. The question is, “Is he interested in finding us?” And if he finds us then we are simply at the receiving end of the sort of God that he is. Other wise we are left with making up a god for ourselves and saying, “Well, could I find a god like that somewhere?” And a god that we make up for ourselves would be the sort of god that would best suite our need. But that would only be a god as big as we expected him to be or wanted him to be, or worst of all manage to control him. And if he didn’t fit our definition of god we then would say, “Oh, I’ll have nothing more to do with him, we will hunt for another god (to meet the definition we need).” And that’s the way with idols. With idols you have to change them one after another as they fail you. The only one that is there for you is the one who finds you and comes to where you are at and we’ve just been to Bethlehem, in a manger (celebrating Christmas)…no one would have EVER expected that’s where he would be for us to be our Saviour. And at New Years it’s the name of Jesus and His circumcision where He comes to be our Saviour, when first His blood is shed (circumcision) when He is on His way to Calvary. Would anybody expect that the man hanging on the Cross (to be), “that is what God is like”? We don’t look at Jesus and say, “Look he qualifies”, we see Jesus, hang around with Him in the Gospels, and then we exclaim surprised, “So THAT is what God is like”, the one who loved us cared for us so much that he would come to be one of us. Born in Bethlehem carrying our sins to the Cross and answering for them, to bear our sins and be our Saviour - as it says in the liturgy.” 

Follow up question: 

“So in a nutshell we don’t come up with a definition of God a then go looking (for him), we let God define who HE is and He is the one who finds us in His Son Jesus Christ. Well then, someone says, “how do I find Jesus? Where is He?” 

Dr. Nagel, “Well he is where He put Himself for us that’s the Good News we’ve just been rejoicing over so much at Christmas time and at New Years we rejoice that He was given His name the name of Jesus. For Jesus you recall the message to Joseph was, “You will call his name Jesus for he will save his people from their sins.” That’s the Jesus we are looking for the one who saves us from our sins. If (you think to yourself) you don’t have any sins you don’t need any saviour of course and if you have no sins, then you have no need for him and you then can answer for your own sins and then you will try to find some other sort of a god. I was just reading in the wise heathen philosopher Cicero, many people who learn Latin read a bit of Cicero, and he said, “You know that god is being most like god when he is giving you orders and prohibitions.” And so when you’ve got a god like that you’ve got a god whose really doing it the way you would expect god to be. Then I was reading 1 Kings 8, you remember when Solomon dedicated the Temple and this was his prayer. He recognized that God is not some kind of God that we can box in and say get control of, “Will God indeed dwell on earth? Behold heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain Thee. How much less this house that I have built. Yet have regard to the prayer of Thy servant and his supplication O’ Lord my God, harkening to the cry and to the prayer that Thy servant prays before Thee this day. May Thy eyes ever be both night and day toward this house, the PLACE, for which Thou has said, ‘MY NAME SHALL BE THERE’, that Thou mayest harken to the prayer that Thy servant prays toward this place and harken Thou to this supplication of Thy servant and Thy people Israel when they pray toward this place YEA hear Thou in heaven in Thy dwelling place and when Thou hearest FORGIVE.” 

The best thing that God can do for you, the one that makes ALL the difference is a God who FORGIVES. Not the god who you know he is being god when he’s bossing you about and giving you commands and prohibitions, BUT the One Who forgives your sins. And that’s the One Whose name is Jesus. And when Solomon prayed the prayer of the Temple he acknowledged that the Temple was the place where the Lord (not Solomon or man) put His NAME. Where the LORD PUTS His name, THERE is where the Lord is for you. And you remember in the NT we are told that we are Temples of God. How come you are a Temple of God? Well, HE put his name on you with the water of Baptism His name went on you (God did so via the hands of the pastor). And that’s where He is at, where He puts His name. And when He puts His name on you where your life is going on is where He has put His name and from that name you can draw the resources of all that is in His name for you. Most of all, His name “Jesus”, for He will save His people from their sins.”


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## Davidius (Jan 17, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


>



excellent work!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 17, 2007)

Alleluia! That quote was wonderful Larry!


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 17, 2007)

Rich,

When I first heard it, it was so wonderful, man I tell you it made you just praise God in His grace. 

I played it for my wife and she just stood there, "Wow", dazed by it!

I thought, tweak it a bit and you could produce a wonderful tract that captures a whole lot in pretty short order and very capturing for folks today "seeking god".

It's very capturing in the way its laid out so simply.

L


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## turmeric (Jan 18, 2007)

Someone should ask Dr. Hagel if it could be adapted.


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## elnwood (Jan 18, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> The only distinction I would also draw out is that we're also talking about the difference between the heralding of the Gospel and teaching within a body of believers. We're talking, properly, about the Gospel call in this thread where the passages cited are admonitions to existing disciples. In the presentation of the Gospel, there are no examples of people pointing to their own lives. The Gospel is heralded as a command to repent and believe.
> 
> Yes, we are commanded to live quiet and obedient lives that bears witness to the fruit of who we are in Christ but people are not converted by looking at us. The person may ask you "what hope lies within you?", which is a good thing if Christ's work is so evident within us to set us apart. When we answer the question, however, we're not pointing to our example but share the hope: Christ died and rose again.
> 
> ...



That's an interesting view. For me, I see talking about Christ's work in us in evangelism as linked to the commands to be a light in the world. Non-Christians ought to notice the distinctiveness of Christians, and pointing to evidence of God's work in our lives is following that command.

I don't think the tract is saying "imitate me," but "look at God's work in my life" (and granted, in a really shallow way). I was using the "imitate me" as an example that is not wrong to point to God's work in you, not that we should call unbelievers to imitate us (because, as you pointed this out, this is impossible without a new birth!).

So, Rich and Chris, does that mean that you never share your testimony to unbelievers as a part of your evangelism (in addition to preaching Christ crucified and a call to repentance)? Or do you eschew this as being self-centered?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 18, 2007)

elnwood said:


> That's an interesting view. For me, I see talking about Christ's work in us in evangelism as linked to the commands to be a light in the world. Non-Christians ought to notice the distinctiveness of Christians, and pointing to evidence of God's work in our lives is following that command.
> 
> I don't think the tract is saying "imitate me," but "look at God's work in my life" (and granted, in a really shallow way). I was using the "imitate me" as an example that is not wrong to point to God's work in you, not that we should call unbelievers to imitate us (because, as you pointed this out, this is impossible without a new birth!).
> 
> So, Rich and Chris, does that mean that you never share your testimony to unbelievers as a part of your evangelism (in addition to preaching Christ crucified and a call to repentance)? Or do you eschew this as being self-centered?



Don,

Notice that I do not disparage the notion that we _should_ be living lives that reflect our hope. What I share, however, is not how happy I am but "...the hope that lies within me...." That hope rests on the finished work of Jesus Christ, that He reigns on high as evidenced by the Resurrection, and that He will come again. That's my testimony and I am contrasting it with many who begin and end with how much _they_ love Jesus and that, if you believe, you too can have a _personal_ relationship with Him.


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## Ezekiel3626 (Jan 28, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Rather than just sit around criticizing other's evangelical material, techniques, and methods ... does anyone here have a tract or something similar that they would recommend for evangelism?



This link should take you to a page on a friends site. The tract is in Word format, and it is a noble effort by a gifted, dedicated servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. Having come out of the SBC, I feel blessed to be free of their man-centered, "cheap grace" theology.
http://http://www.edlacyministries.org/websites/EdLacyMinistries/EdLacyMinistries/Default.asp?PN='Documents'&DivisionID='725'&DepartmentID=''&SubDepartmentID=''&DocumentID='685'


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## Chris (Jan 28, 2007)

Ezekiel3626 said:


> This link should take you to a page on a friends site. The tract is in Word format, and it is a noble effort by a gifted, dedicated servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. Having come out of the SBC, I feel blessed to be free of their man-centered, "cheap grace" theology.
> http://http://www.edlacyministries.org/websites/EdLacyMinistries/EdLacyMinistries/Default.asp?PN='Documents'&DivisionID='725'&DepartmentID=''&SubDepartmentID=''&DocumentID='685'



Linky no worky!


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## Ezekiel3626 (Jan 28, 2007)

Chris said:


> Linky no worky!



 Sorry about that, lets try this: http://www.edlacyministries.org/websites/EdLacyMinistries/EdLacyMinistries/Default.asp take the link labeled "eternal life", then open the tract as a word document.


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