# Presbyterian church and universal atonement?



## Sovereign Grace (Apr 26, 2014)

A relative of my wife attends a Presbyterian church. I found that odd seeing she was raised in a free will believing home. A few weeks ago, I spoke with her. Oddly, she stated that her church didn't believe in Limited Atonement. Though not a Presbyterian, this struck me as being odd. So, are there any of these presbyterian churches who are not Calvinistic in their teachings? Or maybe she hasn't grasped their teachings? 

Thanks in advance...


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## Gforce9 (Apr 26, 2014)

There are many folks who hold the term "Presbyterian", but there is scarcely any resemblance between the OPC, for example, and the PCUSA. The USA group has basically jettisoned the essential doctrines of the faith and and the Confession while the OPC continues to contend for them. Any person or group who denies the doctrines of the Presbyterians and their confession, in my opinion, should not call themselves "Presbyterian", even if the maintain the governmental structure....


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## hammondjones (Apr 26, 2014)

Gforce9 said:


> even if the maintain the governmental structure....


which they don't


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## Free Christian (Apr 26, 2014)

Hello Willis. Yes there are many which differ. As there is many from all other denominations that differ from their original. I have been to a Presbyterian church which I left and also once to a Baptist church which had me scratching my head too.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Apr 26, 2014)

The Presbyterian Church (USA) is the largest body of (so called) Presbyterian churches in the United States.

According to Wikipedia there are 10,262 PC(USA) congregations in the country.

I would be very surprised if there are more than 500 faith churches of God in that denomination.

The PCA, I am afraid, is soon following their footsteps.


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## Ryan J. Ross (Apr 26, 2014)

Sean,

What do you mean by "the PCA … is soon following their footsteps"? Has the PCA abandoned the gospel? Are their talks within that body that they will be doing this soon?

The term Presbyterian does not imply full assent to Calvin's theology. In fact, I know of few churches that would subscribe at all points to his doctrine. It deals with polity. And while historically derived from the teachings of Calvin (and others), it does not need to adhere to (all/many of) his teachings.

Willis, there are many different presbyterian bodies. Greg and Sean, for example, have mentioned two different ones with differing histories and beliefs. To which denomination does she belong? Sadly, many denominations hold the Westminster standards rather lightly with regard to certain sections. The PCA largely ignores the confessional understanding of the 2nd and 4th commandment, for example. Recreational exceptions to the 4th commandment seem to be quite common in the OPC. Moreover, Exclusive Psalmody, which WCF 21 confesses, is not to be found amongst nearly all OPC churches.

Presbyterians aren't as uniform in their doctrinal understandings. Most, de jure, however, are governed by elders. Hence the term.


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## MW (Apr 27, 2014)

The first principle of Presbyerianism is the doctrine that Christ is made head over all things to the church, which is definite and particular. This church is His fulness, which means it is the complete accomplishment of His design as Mediator. No part of His mediatorial work is left unfulfilled or frustrated. On this basis particular redemption must be regarded as in some sense fundamental to Presbyterianism.


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## whirlingmerc (Apr 28, 2014)

Most Presbyterians in the USA are pretty liberal.. only a minority are evangelical and vary widely would be intersting to see a breakdown of how they vary liberal to conservative in some objective way

On paper the Anglical lchurch is infralapsarian reformed..... go figure...


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Apr 28, 2014)

FYI on the state of the spectrum of liberal and conservative views:

Presbyterian and Reformed Churches


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## Unoriginalname (Apr 28, 2014)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> The PCA, I am afraid, is soon following their footsteps.



I am sorry do you really have any idea of what you are talking about. Does the PCA, ordain women, allow for non Calvinist clergy, deny the trinity, promote sexual immorality or undermine the christian faith? The PCA currently has a fight over the confessions in the life of the church, that is for sure, but the Southern Presbyterian church has historically had that fight and none of the issues raised even come close to the issues in the PCUSA.


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## Unoriginalname (Apr 29, 2014)

convicted1 said:


> A relative of my wife attends a Presbyterian church. I found that odd seeing she was raised in a free will believing home. A few weeks ago, I spoke with her. Oddly, she stated that her church didn't believe in Limited Atonement. Though not a Presbyterian, this struck me as being odd. So, are there any of these presbyterian churches who are not Calvinistic in their teachings? Or maybe she hasn't grasped their teachings?
> 
> Thanks in advance...



There is a certain sense in which traditional labels mean very little in America. You could find 8 Baptist churches that believe 8 very different things, just like 8 Methodist churches or Lutherans or so on. What would give you a better picture of what is being taught there would be to find out what the actual denomination is beyond just the label Presbyterian. For example if it were a PCUSA, that is a mainline church with female clergy and apostate theology (for the most part). If it were an ARP, OPC, RPCNA, PCA or another smaller conservative body, more likely than not your relative is not grasping the theology of the church or the church is going rogue compared to the rest of the denomination.


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## Sovereign Grace (May 2, 2014)

Thank you Brethern for the useful info. As far back as ~150 years ago, a vast majority of Old Regular Baptists would have been 5 pointers. Now, most are barely a one pointer, believing babies are born w/o Original Sin and die spiritually after they willfully sin. I know, I used to be one of them. But by His grace, He showed me the better way....


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