# Syllogism for the non-existence of God



## Authorised (Jan 26, 2005)

What do ya'll think of this syllogism?



1. God is omnipotent (all knowing and all powerful); he is capable of creating a cosmos in which evil does not exist.
2. God is all good; God desires a cosmos in which evil does not exist.
3. Therefore evil cannot exist.
4. But we observe that evil does exist.
5. Therefore God does exist.

D.R. Griffin, God, Power and Evil (Philadelphia, 1976).


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## RamistThomist (Jan 26, 2005)

Begs the question. He assumes, falsely and without proof, that he can evaulate what is Evil.
He just proved the existence of God


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 26, 2005)




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## Authorised (Jan 26, 2005)

What if we revised it to say thus:


1. The Christian God is omnipotent (all knowing and all powerful); He is capable of creating a cosmos in which His definition of evil does not exist.
2. The Christian God is all good; He desires a cosmos in which His definition of evil does not exist.
3. Therefore His definition of evil cannot exist.
4. But we observe that it does exist.
5. Therefore the Christian concept of God is self-contradictory.

[Edited on 27-1-2005 by Authorised]


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## Authorised (Jan 26, 2005)

I accidentally put this in the wrong forum. Sorry, mods.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jan 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> 2. The Christian God is all good; He desires a cosmos in which His definition of evil does not exist.[Edited on 27-1-2005 by Authorised]



How can fallible man presume to know what an omnipotent, holy God desires in the immediate moment? This is sheer presumption. It's also presumption to dismiss the idea that he desires to bring about a good world through a process that temporarily allows the intrusion of evil. If you aren't God, how do you know? If you aren't all good, then who are you to say what someone who is all good would desire?


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## Authorised (Jan 26, 2005)

I agree, the argument fails if:

1. God is evil
2. God is not all good
3. God is not omnipotent
4. God does not exist
5. God desires evil to exist.

but who wants to assert any of this?


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ex Nihilo_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Authorised_
> ...



2"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3Dress for action[a] like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.



4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements--surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



8"Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?



12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.



16"Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.



19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!



22"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?



25"Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?



28"Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.



31"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth* in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?



34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, 'Here we are'?
36Who has put wisdom in the inward parts[c]
or given understanding to the mind?[d]
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?



39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food? 

1"Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.



5"Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.



9"Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?



13"The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?[a]
14For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18When she rouses herself to flee,
she laughs at the horse and his rider.



19"Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21He paws[c] in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear and the javelin.
24With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25When the trumpet sounds, he says 'Aha!'
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.



26"Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it afar off.
30His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he." 

Job 40

1And the LORD said to Job:


2"Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it."*


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## RamistThomist (Jan 26, 2005)

you never said what his definition of evil is. And upon defining it, I would ask, "how do you *know*?" By what standard?

1. He is indeed capable. I would ask specifics.
2. You have never defined what his defintion of evil is.
3. Silly premise
4. By what standard do we know what is evil? remember, this question was never answered.
5. the premises are insufficient to support the conclusion.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> I agree, the argument fails if:
> 
> 1. God is evil
> ...



Read the other stuff we posted. the argument is inherently faulty, and I only touched on the outside of it.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> What if we revised it to say thus:
> 
> 
> 1. The Christian God is omnipotent (all knowing and all powerful); He is capable of creating a cosmos in which His definition of evil does not exist.


Capable sure. but you have to deal with God HAS done and revealed to us about it in Scripture. You must deal with what the Bible says about God, otherwise you are only dealing with a straw-god. 


> 2. The Christian God is all good; He desires a cosmos in which His definition of evil does not exist.


This presumes what it means for God to be all good without being informed from Scripture what is means for God to be all good. He designed a cosmos in which His definition of evil is both conquered and eradicted for eternity through the various means He desired to use in His infinite wisdom. 


> 3. Therefore His definition of evil cannot exist.
> 4. But we observe that it does exist.
> 5. Therefore the Christian concept of God is self-contradictory.


Therefore, the argument hasn't dealt with how the Christian God has revealed in Scripture why he sovereignly made the world and uses evil for His good purposes. It only deals with a hypothetical "Christian" god, a straw-god. 

You can't use logic truthfully to disprove the Christian God. It's designed to reflect His own perfect wisdom and truth. Logic will only disprove false gods (including "Christian" false gods). 

[Edited on 27-1-2005 by puritansailor]


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## Authorised (Jan 26, 2005)

I didn't mean this to argue against anyone...I'm just trying to find good articulate responses.

Sorry for playing the devil's advocate.


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## ChristianTrader (Jan 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Authorised_
> ...



How can an atheist be top notch if he doesnt even exist 

CT


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## ChristianTrader (Jan 26, 2005)

Paul,

Thanks for posting Bahnsen's dissection of the issue. There are so many ways to make the argument from evil look silly.

Here is Vincent Cheung's attack on the so called problem: 

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/ProblemEvil.htm


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