# New good Seminary? Piper



## jogri17 (May 20, 2008)

In the future John Piper's TMI (The Bethleham Institute) intends to have accredation and offer the standard degrees. It will be under the care of the local Church. You can read more here: A TBI Update and Announcement :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

What is your opinion on John Piper and this news? I'm excited as a young person planning on going to seminary.


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## turmeric (May 20, 2008)

Did you mean to say TMI? 

Looks interesting.


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## Dearly Bought (May 20, 2008)

If I were still a predestinarian Baptist, this might hold some interest for me. I actually have a whole shelf of Piper's books. Like so many from the Baptist fold, his writings helped to stir a fire in my soul for a vision of the sovereign God.

However...

For all the amazing good that John Piper and Bethlehem Baptist Church are doing there are still many grave concerns to be raised. From my reading of his works, Piper's theology is most heavily influenced by a blend of Jonathan Edwards and Daniel Fuller. From my viewpoint, I think this bears some bad fruit, particularly in an overly charismatic bent (a la Edwards) and some alarming Law-Gospel issues at times (a la Fuller). More broadly speaking, Piper is no covenant theologian (at least not in the historic Reformed sense) and he's not about to sign even the 1689 LBC.

If you're a broadly evangelical Baptist who has come to love the doctrines of grace, then it sounds like you should start to put TBI on your radar next to Southern. If you're a "Reformed" Baptist who subscribes the 1689, Piper and TBI will give you a number of headaches on issues such as:
The Sabbath (no sabbatarians there)
The 2nd Commandment (check out Desiring God's children's materials)
The Regulative Principle (Christian rap solos anyone?)
The Apostolic Sign-Gifts (no cessationists there either)​
If you're Reformed according to the Reformed confessions, I don't think TBI should be particularly attractive at all. Again, I have great respect for Piper and his ministry. I'm sure that there are more than a few of us who owe a lot to him for starting us on our journey to a Reformed confession. Glory be to God that I didn't stop there.

Take a look at the Reformed seminaries which are faithfully teaching the full counsel of God. We are blessed here in North America to have quite a few to choose from.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 20, 2008)

Great advice Bryan. Good Stuff...


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## lenflack (May 20, 2008)

Dearly Bought said:


> If you're a broadly evangelical Baptist who has come to love the doctrines of grace, then it sounds like you should start to put TBI on your radar next to Southern. If you're a "Reformed" Baptist who subscribes the 1689, Piper and TBI will give you a number of headaches on issues...


Thanks for that. This may be slightly off-topic, but as a newly reforming guy, I guess I personally fall into the former category, rather than the latter. However, your description of the difference between the two, and the list of logical issues to wrestle with, are helpful.

That said, I've been devouring Piper's work lately, and intend to check out TBI now.


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## SolaScriptura (May 20, 2008)

If I was a Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist... 

I'd recommend Southern over TBI any day of the week.


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## CDM (May 20, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> If I was a Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist...
> 
> I'd recommend Southern over TBI any day of the week.


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## Ivan (May 20, 2008)

I don't know a thing about TBI, but I believe Piper is capable of forming a good seminary. However, as a Southern Baptist, and that's what I am, I can't imagine going to any other seminary other than Southern. And what a tremendous change has been wrought at Southern. Once one of the most, if not the most, liberal Southern Baptist seminary has become not only conservative, but the champion of the doctrines of grace within the SBC. 

The change is astounding.


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## Pilgrim (May 20, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> If I was a Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist...
> 
> I'd recommend Southern over TBI any day of the week.



 for many of the reasons listed above. I think I might even add a few of the other SBC seminaries to the list as well but I am not as well acquainted with them. Then there is the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at WSCAL and the Midwest Center for Theological Studies for a more confessional Reformed Baptist focus.


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## christianyouth (May 21, 2008)

Can someone explain the difference between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist? I think I may be a Calvinistic Baptist because I love Piper and MacArthur.


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## FenderPriest (May 21, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> If I was a Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist...
> 
> I'd recommend Southern over TBI any day of the week.



While there might be some theological concerns that some would have with a seminary built around Piper's theology (i.e. Bought's concerns), I do not think I would be so quick to suggest Southern over TBI. If I'm understanding the information correctly, that TBI would be centered in the local church, and the attendants would be trained accordingly, in my estimation this factor gives TBI a lot more weight in value of education over other seminaries. 

I think it is in the long run hurtful to the church as a whole to have her pastors trained in a context separated from that which they are called to serve. I think we should keep our pastors-to-be in the context of the church as they are trained and equipped to serve the local church. I don't see this negating seminary training, I just wish there was a clearer, deeper connection between seminaries and the local church instead of a class or two of co-op training for class credit. 

Anyhow, I think there is great value to having training in the local church context over a separate institution apart from the church which makes me put a lot of weight on TBI and such models.


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## SolaScriptura (May 21, 2008)

christianyouth said:


> Can someone explain the difference between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist? I think I may be a Calvinistic Baptist because I love Piper and MacArthur.




Well, the definitions vary by individual... but I think that a good rule of thumb (hence the reason I employ this definition!) is that a Calvinistic Baptist is someone (like Piper, CJ Mahaney, etc...) who holds to the Doctrines of Grace in terms of soteriology, but beyond that there is little to no adherence to other traditionally Reformed doctrines. On the other hand, a Reformed Baptist is one who at least maintains general agreement with traditional Reformed doctrines set forth in documents such as the 1689 LBCF.

That is what I mean when I make the distinction.


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## christianyouth (May 21, 2008)

Ahh, thanks SolaScriptura.


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## jogri17 (May 21, 2008)

I think we agree though a mildly charismatic, non-regulative principal and non sabbathartian (Lord's day they prefer) it certainly is better than Fuller, Princeton, Union, and Asbury theological seminary. LOL


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