# Mixed Martial Arts and the Christian Life



## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 5, 2011)

I would enjoy hearing perspective on a topic that is question mark in my mind right now. 4 years ago someone had a similar discussion here that didn't go very far. But I wasn't here then and it got limited response so let me refresh it: *Can a believer watch and/or participate in mixed martial arts?*

I will tip my hand: I am currently participating in Shotokan Karate and watch MMA (as well as other fight sports like boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, submission wrestling, etc) But I ask this with no loaded motive. My intention is (assuming I see convincing Biblical support and/or Confessional support) to to place myself under the care of my session.

Many times I hear wild conclusions drawn about what goes on in MMA so let me make disclaimers here:

1) I'm not talking about unsanctioned events (no street fights)
2) I'm not asking about the culture around it (pretty Godless! Promotes party life, uses ring girls, etc)- all these things I filter for by watching edited events or self editing
3) I am aware of dementia pugilistica and what can happen with repeated strikes to the head (though if this is the main of your argument, I'd be glad to listen)
4) I discount for the Eastern mysticism in many arts (I make no use of them nor approve in any way and none are presented in my training or the sports I view)
5) I understand there is a risk of injury or death involved (though vastly smaller than most full contact sports out there, believe it or not); but again, if this is the main of your argument, I will gladly consider.

I wonder also for those who disagree with MMA:

1) do you think that ALL full contact sports are sinful or just MMA?
2) if I wrestled one hour and did kickboxing on a separate hour would that be equally sinful?
3) shouldn't the Christian man ready his body for self defense in case, God forbid, he should have to defend an innocent cause?

Thoughts?


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## raekwon (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes and yes.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 5, 2011)

AlexanderHenderson1647 said:


> Can a believer watch and/or participate in mixed martial arts?



Yes... but only if, after having beat his opponent into bloody submission, the Christian bows a knee and crosses himself and prays in the ring thanking God for enabling him to beat the other guy to within an inch of his life.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 5, 2011)

SolaScriptura said:


> AlexanderHenderson1647 said:
> 
> 
> > Can a believer watch and/or participate in mixed martial arts?
> ...


Debate settled!


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## JM (Aug 5, 2011)

I thought we couldn't talk about MMA. I have my nidan in Shotokan.

Apply the same arguments used against MMA to boxing and football.


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## JML (Aug 5, 2011)

JM said:


> Apply the same arguments used against MMA to boxing and football.



Good point that gets overlooked because football and boxing are more "popular" sports. It's easier to give up something you don't like.


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## Rufus (Aug 5, 2011)

One argument against it I've heard is that your not loving your enemies or that it's all about hate, however, back when I did watch MMA (a lot, I don't anymore because the fights cost 40$ on PPV) the fighters would hug each other and congratulate the winner after the match, the majority of them had respect for each other.

*What I would like to know is what what has been said against or for boxing in the past (boxing as we know it today developed in Great Britain in the 19th century I believe).*

Also, as far as boxing, Evander Holyfield and George Foreman are both Christians (and George is ordained from my knowledge), and in MMA I remember many of the fighters thanking God and giving credit to him after a fight, as well as Matt Hughes being a Christian.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 5, 2011)

Joshua said:


> While it's difficult to be dogmatic, I can't help but question the propriety of direct contact violent sports such as UFC, MMA, and often times less seemingly physically violent sports in light of all that is required and forbidden in the Sixth Commandment. Considering the WLC (my emphases added):
> Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
> A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.​
> Ex. 20:13.
> ...



I appreciate this - I've heard many of these thoughts, though not any better put than you. I'm certainly weighing (and had been considering these points) as I wrestle through this. Pun intended.


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## raekwon (Aug 5, 2011)

Joshua said:


> So, one part of keeping the Sixth Commandment is defense against those who would do violence against us or our neighbor unjustly. In order to be ready for such, obviously some preparation is required in that regard. I would submit, however, that sparring in pads, learning self-defense, etc. is a far different cry from getting in the ring and going blow after blow against another with no protection from the impact from punches, kicks, and slams. I realize this is not an easy subject, but when we consider the commandment in all its implications and applications, fighting, *without proper protection*, etc., especially for competition and entertainment's sake, is questionable.



Good post, Josh. I would contend that the numerous regulations and precautions (ie: ringside physicians, banned holds and moves, etc) that are now part and parcel of sanctioned mixed-martial arts may well constitute "proper protection," especially considering MMA's no-holds-barred days in the early 90s.


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## Rufus (Aug 5, 2011)

I looked into the history of boxing from Art of Manliness:



> In the latter half of the 19th century, boxing found advocates within the “muscular Christianity” movement which saw sports as a way to increase not only a man’s physical, but also his moral strength. Many churches ran their own gyms and supported fighters. Theodore Roosevelt, advocate of living the strenuous life and forever concerned about American men going soft and losing their manliness, was also a keen advocate of the sweet science. TR argued that “powerful, vigorous men of strong animal development must have some way in which their animal spirits can find vent.” As NY’s police commissioner he encouraged his officers to train in the ars pugandi, and he later sought its implemetation in the character-building program of the YMCA and in the training for men of the Armed Services. He himself boxed as a young man, throughout his years of college, and into his presidency, only stopping when a pugilist’s blow detached his left retina, leaving him blind in that eye (not one to let something like blindness dampen his fun, TR then took up jujitsu). Roosevelt especially recommended the sport to city dwellers who had limited space but wished to build up their strength and vigor.




Logically if we accept boxing than mma is acceptable.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/ucl-views/0805/shoreditch


> In 1880, the British Amateur Boxing Association was founded with the motto, ‘Box, don’t fight’, and with this in mind, social and religious reformers encouraged the establishment of boxing clubs in working-class areas. The violence of the street, it was thought, could be redirected into the gym, bringing the public school ideal of Muscular Christianity into poor neighbourhoods.



From my understanding football was made popular for similar reasons, during the interwar period Patton created the first military football team to keep soldiers from drinking and gambling.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 6, 2011)

John Lanier said:


> JM said:
> 
> 
> > Apply the same arguments used against MMA to boxing and football.
> ...



Agreed, that was one of the counterpoints I offered: 'what about other full contact?'

But, again, I'm opening myself up for genuine inspection. I've been introspective already and now I'd like to hear from my brothers/sisters. I want to believe the truth. If MMA is wrong and consequently others are equally so, I want to turn from them and seek Christ's loving face, whatever the sport, however popular. But I do think it is up to those who dismiss MMA and not other full contacts (boxing, rugby, football, kickboxing, etc) to show consistency here. Statistics show, for example, that vastly more serious brain and spinal injuries occur in football than in MMA (discounting somewhat for the relative novelty of modern MMA.) Football cannot say the same even given the same spread of years, say since the UFC first started in 1993 (though in Japan it was already going before then.)

I'm not saying this to end the discussion, just make sure the playing field is level on criticism. Pun intended.


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## TimV (Aug 6, 2011)

When Paul uses athletic metaphors he's only talking about swimming.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Aug 6, 2011)

I have had doctors tell me boxing is actually worse long term than MMA w/finger gloves, because of the weighted gloves in boxing. However, being kicked in the head is kicked in the head no matter what gloves you have on at the time.  I practiced karate (and a little judo) for many years, and one of my instructors was a Christian. I never had an issue with it. Under this instructor, it was as divorced from mysticism as you could get. No "bowing" to the "goddess" of the style, etc. However, I am not sure that some styles, like Aikido and Kung Fu can even be separated from the "mystic" side. 2 cents.


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## steadfast7 (Aug 6, 2011)

Attempting to separate Karate from Kungfu according to level of mysticism is a little arbitrary. 
Attempting to separate acceptable from non acceptable according to the amount of padding is silly.
in my opinion.
I watch MMA, btw, with no conscience problem, but I'm open to hearing anymore reasons why it might be wrong. Josh's quotes from the WLC are the strongest so far, but we need to determine the motive behind the strikes and blows: are they tending toward the taking of life?


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## elnwood (Aug 6, 2011)

I used to do Tae Kwon Do, so hand-to-hand combat interests me, but several years ago I decided that for myself I wasn't going to watch MMA. The simple reason was that I felt it glorified violence, and I didn't think I ought to be promoting that. I can't pinpoint exactly what part of it offends me, but I think it's more that as a whole, the culture of it glorifies violence.

I think it's a conscience issue, and I wouldn't be dogmatic on that or pass an SBC resolution against it or criticize my MMA-watching friends or anything.

Some other random thoughts:

When I did Tae Kwon Do tournaments, it was about exercising to skill to win points, not about hurting the other person and having people cheer when you do.

There's a time for war (Ecclesiastes 3:8), and I believe in training to fight, but I feel uncomfortable with it as a exhibition for entertainment.

David was prevented from building the temple because he was a man of war and bloodshed. I'm still not sure what exactly this means theologically though.

The early Christians didn't participate in the violent Roman entertainment at the time, which included gladiator fights, although in general it was far more violent and bloody than MMA.

I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this.


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## JM (Aug 6, 2011)

My first introduction to non-Christian philosophies, including the practice of zen, were through the study of karate. Before and after every class we did zazen.


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## TimV (Aug 6, 2011)

> Josh's quotes from the WLC are the strongest so far, but we need to determine the motive behind the strikes and blows: are they tending toward the taking of life?



Take a man who's done MMA or similar all his life around 50 years old, like Randy Couture. Take someone around 50 who thinks MMA is bad for your health. Compare the two. Who's healthier? These threads are all so ridiculous. I used to get mad, now I just shake my head. I'm 51 and have 4 All-Americans in wrestling. Yes, I've been on crutches. Big deal. I compare myself physically to people I meet my age and wonder where on earth people get such outrageous notions. I've posted this before, but our pastor's sister, a member in good standing at my OPC church is an undefeated cage fighter, mom of two, gentle, sensitive woman, wonderful wife, sharp as iron etc.... and I wonder how many of the men who think MMA is unChristian are as healthy as her.


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## JM (Aug 6, 2011)

TimV said:


> > Josh's quotes from the WLC are the strongest so far, but we need to determine the motive behind the strikes and blows: are they tending toward the taking of life?
> 
> 
> 
> Take a man who's done MMA or similar all his life around 50 years old, like Randy Couture. Take someone around 50 who thinks MMA is bad for your health. Compare the two. Who's healthier? These threads are all so ridiculous. I used to get mad, now I just shake my head. I'm 51 and have 4 All-Americans in wrestling. Yes, I've been on crutches. Big deal. I compare myself physically to people I meet my age and wonder where on earth people get such outrageous notions. I've posted this before, but our pastor's sister, a member in good standing at my OPC church is an undefeated cage fighter, mom of two, gentle, sensitive woman, wonderful wife, sharp as iron etc.... and I wonder how many of the men who think MMA is unChristian are as healthy as her.


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## TimV (Aug 6, 2011)

Josh, do you think striking a child is against the confession? Can we agree that striking in the confession is with the intent to do something a little different? And what's annecdotal about pointing out fighters are healthier than the general population??? Have you seen what those guys older than you look like?


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## TimV (Aug 6, 2011)

Sorry, Josh!! No problem  

It's just so hard, what with everyone in my church being either in the military or fighters.


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## Edward (Aug 6, 2011)

JM said:


> Apply the same arguments used against MMA to boxing and football.



Agree as to boxing, disagree as to football. With MMA and boxing, the purpose is to hurt/incapacitate your opponent. With football, the purpose is to advance/retard the advance of the ball, with significant bodily protection and complex rules to try to prevent injury/incapacitation. Football should be likened to riding a bicycle with a helmet, not sports which glorify violence.


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## TimV (Aug 6, 2011)

Didn't have many football playing friends, Ed?


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## JM (Aug 6, 2011)

Edward said:


> Agree as to boxing, disagree as to football. With MMA and boxing, the purpose is to hurt/incapacitate your opponent. With football, the purpose is to advance/retard the advance of the ball, with significant bodily protection and complex rules to try to prevent injury/incapacitation. Football should be likened to riding a bicycle with a helmet, not sports which glorify violence.



I take you've never played football. lol Ask a QB what he thinks of your response or a lineman what he is trying to do on the football field. There is evidence that football and boxing are more dangerous then MMA.


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## Edward (Aug 6, 2011)

JM said:


> I take you've never played football.



Yes, I have.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Aug 6, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Attempting to separate Karate from Kungfu according to level of mysticism is a little arbitrary. ?


Hmmm, wonder why the primary teachers of (wushu) the first institutionalized style of kung fu were BUDDIST monks? Versus peasant farmers in Okinowa who developed what became known as karate?  



steadfast7 said:


> Attempting to separate acceptable from non acceptable according to the amount of padding is silly.
> in my opinion.
> ?



Then using the head for a spear in football is acceptable? Or hockey? How about in rugby with no pads? Different? 

Having spent a few years getting hit in the face regularly, and helped carry a paralyzed person off the field at football practice, I don't find it "silly" at all. your mileage may vary.


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## cih1355 (Aug 6, 2011)

JM said:


> I thought we couldn't talk about MMA. I have my nidan in Shotokan.
> 
> Apply the same arguments used against MMA to boxing and football.



The object of the game of football is not to hurt people nor to be violent.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Aug 6, 2011)

Respectfully, one cannot PLAY football without hurting people or being violent.


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## Damon Rambo (Aug 6, 2011)

I have participated in many tournaments, including in the ring. I have a second degree black belt, and used to teach Tae Kwon Do. All that to say this:

I certainly have no problem with practicing martial arts and self defense (being careful not to participate in any eastern mysticism!). I think it is a good idea to know how to defend yourself and your family. However, since Christ has saved me, something has happened to me, and I simply can no longer bear watching two men beat the tar out of each other. I have no problem with point sparring, but watching UFC matches just makes me a little sick to my stomach. I feel empathy for the man on the bottom, who is often spitting teeth or (in some UFC matches), suffering from severe brain trauma or broken limbs after the match.

I just cannot bring myself to cheer, watching a man tear apart, piece by piece, the image of God.


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## JML (Aug 7, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I have participated in many tournaments, including in the ring. I have a second degree black belt, and used to teach Tae Kwon Do. All that to say this:
> 
> I certainly have no problem with practicing martial arts and self defense (being careful not to participate in any eastern mysticism!). I think it is a good idea to know how to defend yourself and your family. However, since Christ has saved me, something has happened to me, and I simply can no longer bear watching two men beat the tar out of each other. I have no problem with point sparring, but watching UFC matches just makes me a little sick to my stomach. I feel empathy for the man on the bottom, who is often spitting teeth or (in some UFC matches), suffering from severe brain trauma or broken limbs after the match.
> 
> I just cannot bring myself to cheer, watching a man tear apart, piece by piece, the image of God.




Very well said.


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## TimV (Aug 7, 2011)

Something cool from 1Kings about leaders and what's expected of them. They trained by what????????  yoga? Poetry reading?  Sometimes I wonder what Western civilization has come to.

13 Suddenly a prophet approached Ahab king of Israel, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Have you seen all this great multitude? Behold, I will deliver it into your hand today, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’” 
14 So Ahab said, “By whom?” 
And he said, “Thus says the LORD: ‘By the young leaders of the provinces.’” 
Then he said, “Who will set the battle in order?” 
And he answered, “You.” 
15 Then he mustered the young leaders of the provinces, and there were two hundred and thirty-two; and after them he mustered all the people, all the children of Israel—seven thousand. 
16 So they went out at noon. Meanwhile Ben-Hadad and the thirty-two kings helping him were getting drunk at the command post. 17 The young leaders of the provinces went out first. And Ben-Hadad sent out a patrol, and they told him, saying, “Men are coming out of Samaria!” 18 So he said, “If they have come out for peace, take them alive; and if they have come out for war, take them alive.” 
19 Then these young leaders of the provinces went out of the city with the army which followed them. 20 And each one killed his man; so the Syrians fled, and Israel pursued them; and Ben-Hadad the king of Syria escaped on a horse with the cavalry. 21 Then the king of Israel went out and attacked the horses and chariots, and killed the Syrians with a great slaughter.


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## Damon Rambo (Aug 7, 2011)

TimV said:


> Something cool from 1Kings about leaders and what's expected of them. They trained by what????????  yoga? Poetry reading?  Sometimes I wonder what Western civilization has come to.
> 
> 13 Suddenly a prophet approached Ahab king of Israel, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Have you seen all this great multitude? Behold, I will deliver it into your hand today, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’”
> 14 So Ahab said, “By whom?”
> ...



Nobody here is condemning defending oneself (I carry a .380 with me everywhere I go. In the real life game of "rock paper scissors", gun beats punch or kick every time...), or even training for it. But that is different from sitting down in front of the T.V. and cheering as teeth go flying, or as a man has his elbow snapped from an arm bar...


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## TimV (Aug 7, 2011)

The refs stop things before the arm snaps. It's really rare that that sort of injury occurs. And who's talking about defence only? Another man from our church teaches hand to hand to soldiers, and the CA National Guard sends him to MMA tourney's all over the country, as part of his job. I can't claim to know what super elite units do for training, but I can bet they're not too different from MMA training. Would anyone here object to special ops going through that sort of training?


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## Damon Rambo (Aug 7, 2011)

TimV said:


> The refs stop things before the arm snaps. It's really rare that that sort of injury occurs. And who's talking about defence only? Another man from our church teaches hand to hand to soldiers, and the CA National Guard sends him to MMA tourney's all over the country, as part of his job. I can't claim to know what super elite units do for training, but I can bet they're not too different from MMA training. Would anyone here object to special ops going through that sort of training?



The training received by special ops soldiers, and MMA ring fights, have little to nothing in common. In training, your goal is not to hurt your opponent, even in sparring sessions. And no, I have seen countless arms and legs broke, a complete set of front teeth knocked out (after a mouth gaurd went flying), and heads split open.


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## TimV (Aug 7, 2011)

I've seen ice hockey too.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 8, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I have participated in many tournaments, including in the ring. I have a second degree black belt, and used to teach Tae Kwon Do. All that to say this:
> 
> I certainly have no problem with practicing martial arts and self defense (being careful not to participate in any eastern mysticism!). I think it is a good idea to know how to defend yourself and your family. However, since Christ has saved me, something has happened to me, and I simply can no longer bear watching two men beat the tar out of each other. I have no problem with point sparring, but watching UFC matches just makes me a little sick to my stomach. I feel empathy for the man on the bottom, who is often spitting teeth or (in some UFC matches), suffering from severe brain trauma or broken limbs after the match.
> 
> I just cannot bring myself to cheer, watching a man tear apart, piece by piece, the image of God.



I appreciate that thought, especially given your experience. Now, if I may ask, what are you qualifying as "severe brain trauma?" I read the post fight dr's reports as I have never heard of anything like that. Are we talking concussions? Or are you just talking the unseen neurological effects ie, Muhammad Ali. Again, I'm not taking away from what you're saying in general, because I am very near pulling myself away from it on similar grounds that have pushed you away, to wit, "Am I watching two people with hateful motives attempting to tear away at God's image in each for wicked ends - has it ceased being sport and become strife?" Genuinely curious.

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------




cih1355 said:


> JM said:
> 
> 
> > I thought we couldn't talk about MMA. I have my nidan in Shotokan.
> ...



Having participated in varsity football through high school, I promise you that violence is integral to the sport. I was never instructed to "not hurt or not be violent." I was trained to pound as hard as I can, hit those who are not expecting to be hit, hold nothing back. All legal, all accepted, all EXPECTED. Certainly I never wanted for anyone to die or suffer any injury when attacking them. I was the first to help an opponent up and concerned if an opposing player was hurt. Thank God that he gave me a conscience on that matter. But in general, *some* of the hitting stops once the objective is reached and it ends after the play is over, and that only after a slaughterhouse of bone jarring hits have been delivered. Again, I can assure you as mentioned earlier, there are FAR more significant injuries (life altering like paralysis - non life altering like ankles, knees, etc) in football than in MMA. There may be a ball and pads there but that doesn't take away from the repeated attacks delivered down after down. I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I believe you are misguided. Soccer, sure. Track, certainly. Tennis, sure. But, full contact is full contact. Helmets prevent abrasions, but they allow for heads to slam harder actually permitting for worse brain trauma, a la a recent autopsy of a former pro player. His brain was jello.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 8, 2011)

Here's an article that I believe puts into perspective what is becoming my biggest concern. Incidentally, it lumps in boxing, football and several others though it focuses on MMA. Fistic Medicine: Dementia Pugilistica & MMA - SpursTalk


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## steadfast7 (Aug 9, 2011)

The Puritans would never have condoned MMA, but then again, they wouldn't have condoned the idolatry that is English Premier Soccer, American NFL, or Canadian hockey either. They were simply too busy engorged in God's word, in holy meditation, in religious exercises, in catechizing their children, and their daily work routine, etc, to be bothered with worldly activities.

Football and MMA are in the same category. Can every football fan really say that 100% of the enjoyment comes from seeing the ball cross the line, and 0% from the aggression?


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## clinpep05 (Aug 9, 2011)

humility is a virtue.....


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 9, 2011)

clinpep05 said:


> humility is a virtue.....


I'm sorry, what are you saying?


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## FCC (Aug 9, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I have participated in many tournaments, including in the ring. I have a second degree black belt, and used to teach Tae Kwon Do. All that to say this:
> 
> I certainly have no problem with practicing martial arts and self defense (being careful not to participate in any eastern mysticism!). I think it is a good idea to know how to defend yourself and your family. However, since Christ has saved me, something has happened to me, and I simply can no longer bear watching two men beat the tar out of each other. I have no problem with point sparring, but watching UFC matches just makes me a little sick to my stomach. I feel empathy for the man on the bottom, who is often spitting teeth or (in some UFC matches), suffering from severe brain trauma or broken limbs after the match.
> 
> I just cannot bring myself to cheer, watching a man tear apart, piece by piece, the image of God.



I very much agree with this quote. I work as a police officer and I teach officers self defense. I have no problem with being in shape, working out and occasionally going hand to hand with an opponent. I do this routinely in my line of work and it is a necessary evil in our day and age.

I say that to say I do not agree with participating in any sport that requires violent acts towards our fellow image bearers. I have played football, I have wrestled, and I have gone toe to toe with violent criminals in street fights, so don't throw up any sophisms. I can't see where Scripture allows us to indiscriminately attempt to pummel another human being into submission. It violates the 6th commandment and the commandment given by Christ to love one another!

Question 134: Which is the sixth commandment?

Answer: The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Question 135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and* avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any*; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; *a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations;* by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge;all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and: Whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.


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## Andres (Aug 9, 2011)

Guys, there's an easy way to settle this discussion - in the octagon!


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## Tripel (Aug 9, 2011)

I have a problem with MMA and boxing, for reasons others have expressed.

I don't consider American football and other sports to be anything similar. The goal in MMA and boxing is essentially to inflict greater damage to your opponent than he inflicts on you. 

The goal in football is very different. It's all about scoring more points than the other team. And please, you don't need to tell me how players try to hit their opponents as hard as they can. I realize that they do that, but that is not the ultimate goal. I consider the aggressive hitting to be a negative aspect of the game of football rather than the defining characteristic. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I DON'T watch football for the big hits -- I consider them completely unnecessary. I would much rather that football did away with all of the pads and keep the game about strategy and athleticism.


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## Andres (Aug 9, 2011)

Tripel said:


> I would much rather that football did away with all of the pads and keep the game about strategy and athleticism.



That's called soccer.


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## Tripel (Aug 9, 2011)

Andres said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > I would much rather that football did away with all of the pads and keep the game about strategy and athleticism.
> ...




Soccer players could probably stand to use more padding, what with all of the screaming and writhing in pain after every bit of contact.


...and I say that as a soccer fan. American football needs to eliminate the excessive hits, and soccer needs to eliminate the drama. It's embarrassing.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks, I'm really grateful for you bringing in this perspective. That's is very convincing, as several others who have shared.

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------




Andres said:


> Guys, there's an easy way to settle this discussion - in the octagon!




---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------




Andres said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > I would much rather that football did away with all of the pads and keep the game about strategy and athleticism.
> ...


Andres, you're quickly becoming my favorite person on PB.


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## Andres (Aug 9, 2011)

AlexanderHenderson1647 said:


> Thanks, I'm really grateful for you bringing in this perspective. That's is very convincing, as several others who have shared.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------
> 
> ...



Such a kind compliment! Thank you sir.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Aug 9, 2011)

Actually, football without the pads is rugby....


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## JoannaV (Aug 10, 2011)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> Actually, football without the pads is rugby....


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## Apologist4Him (Aug 10, 2011)

My thoughts, there is some grey area on this subject, Romans Chapter 14 comes to mind. One of the most boring UFC fights I've watched took place in UFC 5, Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shammrock. The fight lasted around 30 min, and because both had such great respect for one another, it turned out to be little more than a "hugging" match. In some fights there is anger, while in others not so much. Often a fight is more about "doing business" working for a paycheck, winning to advance to rise in rank and be a regular. As has already been mentioned, the objective in MMA is not to kill, but to win. With doctors on the spot, a referee, a few rules, judges scoring points, it is a competitive contact sport. Part of it's appeal is the mixing of Boxing, Kickboxing, Martial Arts, and Wrestling all rolled into one. The respect the fighters have for one another has impressed me many times, and the fighters that have shown concern for their opponents after a match. As far as attitude goes, one fighter whom impressed me, was Igor Vovchanchyn. The guy had a humility about him, even a gentleness, but when he stepped into the ring, he was all business. I could never be an MMA fighter even if I wanted to (I've been blind in my life eye since 3-4 yrs old), have never been in the physical condition of most MMA fighters, especially these days. George St. Pierre has to be one of the greatest athletes I have ever watched. His conditioning, speed, power, desire to win are incredible. I think part of what makes it a grey area, is the involvement of non-Christians in the sport and the influence it has on young non-Christian minds (obviously the sport is not about turning the other cheek). Further, and this is my opinion, the exciting parts about MMA, do seem to appeal to the sinful nature that remains until I die, and that is why I struggle with it (especially as entertainment) sometimes as Joshua does.


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## Apologist4Him (Aug 10, 2011)

Tripel said:


> I don't consider American football and other sports to be anything similar. The goal in MMA and boxing is essentially to inflict greater damage to your opponent than he inflicts on you.



Depends on the fighter really. Some like Royce Gracie wanted to end a fight as quickly as possible by tapout giving and receiving as little damage as possible. A quick TKO also while jarring, ends a fight quickly, without inflicting great amounts of damage. Some fighters though, like the pain...they don't even feel comfortable unless they've been hit a few times...gives them a feel for their opponent. The level of conditioning is incredible for most fighters these days. I am amazed (and a little horrified) at the punishment many can take. Unfortunately poor sportsmanship is too common in American professional sports. I couldn't tell you know how many times I've watched clips of fights from hockey games. And people go crazy over them. We shouldn't be surprised though that controlled violence has become popular and acceptable. It's scary to think about how much violence a person will be exposed to (through all kinds of media) by the time they become an adult. It's all sin to God I suppose...but then again God ordained much violence in the O.T., I understand the differences, doesn't take away from the nature of it though.


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