# 1 Timothy 4:9



## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 24, 2009)

[bible]1 Timothy 4:9[/bible]

Does this refer to the previous verses (6-8)? or the following verse (10)?


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## Nathan Riese (Oct 24, 2009)

> 1 Timothy 4.9.
> This is the third of the “faithful sayings”; the formula here is exactly the same as in 1.15. It is difficult to be certain as to what saying is being referred to. There are at least two possibilities:
> (1) It refers back to verse 8, namely, the value of spiritual exercise. This seems to be the position reflected in TEV (so also Barclay [Brc] “This is a saying which you can believe and accept absolutely”; Phps “There is no doubt about this at all, and Christians should remember it”).
> (2) It refers forward to verse 10 or a part of it. This position is difficult to maintain because verse 10 begins with the connective “For” or “Because.” However, those who take this position restructure verse 10 in such a way as to avoid the problem. NEB, for instance, translates verse 10 as a proverbial saying by transforming the first clause that begins with “For” into a complete statement: “Here are words you may trust, words that merit full acceptance: ‘With this before us we labor and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God who is the Savior of all men …’ ” NIV, on the other hand, takes the “For” clause as a parenthetical statement and identifies the second half of verse 10 as the faithful saying: “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.”
> ...



Those are the UBS handbook guys, so they're pretty nifty in their Greek knowledge if you know what i mean.

But then again...


> 4:9 What is the “trustworthy saying” to which Paul referred? Guthrie agrees with the NIV translation and suggests that the weighty subject matter of v. 10 makes it a more likely candidate to be the saying.101 Most other interpreters (Fee, Ward, White) feel that the saying is a reference to the content of v. 8. Fee clarifies the issues when he indicates that the nature of the saying of v. 8 is more epigrammatic, while the statement of v. 10 is actually a reflection on the latter part of v. 8.102 He locates the “saying” as the latter part of v. 8. This is the better option. For additional discussion on “trustworthy sayings,” see the initial presentation at 1:15.
> 
> Thomas D. Lea and Hayne P. Griffin, vol. 34, 1, 2 Timothy, Titus, electronic ed., Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2001, c1992), 135.



then this commentary says this


> 4:9 With the citation-commendation formula πιστὸς ὁ λόγος Paul designates what precedes as a saying (λόγος) and commends it as trustworthy (πιστός). With καὶ πάσης ἀποδοχῆς ἄξιος he also urges a full personal appropriation of the saying (see comments above on 1:15).
> A question that remains is the punctuation at the end of this verse (see the UBSGNT apparatus). This question is related to the identity of the saying and is inevitably intertwined with it (see the solution given in the discussion of v. 8 above). A period before and at the end of the verse (RSV, NASB, NEB margin) distinguishes it and its formula from both v. 8 and v. 10 and does not commit the translation either way with regard to the identification of the “saying.” But a colon at the end of the verse (NEB text) virtually identifies v. 10 as the “saying” (NIV parenthesizes the first clause of v. 10 and places a paragraph break between vv. 8 and 9, thereby identifying the rest of v. 10 as the “saying”). For reasons given above, the “saying” should, however, be identified as v. 8. A comma at the end of v. 9 would present v. 10 as a more personal (note first person plural “we”) and theological concurrence with the formula of v. 9.
> George W. Knight, The Pastoral Epistles : A Commentary on the Greek Text (Grand Rapids, Mich.; Carlisle, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1992), 201.



And this is what the New Bible Commentary says...


> A problem arises over the trustworthy saying in v 9, for it is not certain whether this relates to v 8 or v 10. V 10 contains the more theological statement and could well have formed a proverbial saying. On the other hand, it has been pointed out that the second half of v 8 has the nature of a proverbial statement and that v 10 is really a development of this.
> D. A. Carson, New Bible Commentary : 21st Century Edition, Rev. Ed. of: The New Bible Commentary. 3rd Ed. / Edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer. 1970., 4th ed. (Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill., USA: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), 1 Ti 4:6.




So...it seems the majority leans to the prior verse (v. 8) and not the following verse (v. 10).

Hope that answers your question!


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 25, 2009)

Nathan Riese said:


> So...it seems the majority leans to the prior verse (v. 8) and not the following verse (v. 10).


As does Calvin...

Verse 9 
"_This is a faithful saying He now sets down, at the conclusion of the argument, what he stated twice at the beginning of it; and he appears to do so expressly, because he will immediately subjoin the contrary objection. Yet it is not without good reason that he employs so strong an assertion; for it is a paradox strongly at variance with the feeling of the flesh, that God supplies his people, in this world, with everything that is necessary for a happy and joyful life; since they are often destitute of all good things, and, on that account, appear to be forsaken by God. Accordingly, not satisfied with the simple doctrine, he wards off all opposing temptations by this shield, and in this manner instructs believers to open the door to the grace of God, which our unbelief shuts out; for, undoubtedly if we were willing to receive God’s benefits._"

AMR


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