# a question about Hebrews 11:33-38



## a mere housewife (Jul 22, 2011)

I have had a question for some time, and hope it won't disturb the order of the universe if while I am visiting today, I ask it. It is about all the other things in Hebrews 11 that were done by faith, in vs. 33-38. In the first half of that list, people are by faith exercising a certain power over their circumstances. In the second half of it, 'by faith' their circumstances are exercising a certain power over them. Is there a significance to that structure, besides the more surface observation that the same power which enables some people to move mountains is operative in other people being sawn asunder? Is faith itself in the last half of the list to be seen more sharply not only as the enabling power, but as the miracle?


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## rbcbob (Jul 23, 2011)




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## Reformation Monk (Jul 23, 2011)

I've been contemplating this question all last night and this morning. It's very thought provoking. 

So I thought I would share my thoughts, even though I'm sure I'm not going to provide an answer to the question. I hope you don't mind. I have to be honest, I understand the whole post up until the last word. I'm really not sure what you mean by miracle. 

All through these last chapters in Hebrews the Church is being "exhorted and encouraged." This is an interesting thought.

From a sovereignty standpoint, why would anyone who is truly of God and has the "right" to the kingdom, a true adopted child, an inheritor; someone who has been justified and is being sanctified.... need to be exhorted and or encouraged?

This of course leads us to ponder upon free will. It seems that because the Church and true believers are being exhorted and encouraged, that they have the free will to exorcise and therefor build, strengthen and establish their faith or to be weak in their faith and eventually lose it. 

This is the expression we get simply from the fact that the writer to the Hebrews has to exhort and encourage. 

But, I believe that exhortation, encouragement, fellowship, worship, the sacraments... etc.. etc.. are all physical means that build up and establish faith in a sovereign way. 

These last chapters in Hebrews are words to a persecuted Church.

It seems very hard for many Christians today, especially Christians in countries where there is very little persecution, to understand how serious following Christ is. Why would people be willing to suffer horrendous deaths in the name of Christ? Until people are put into a position to where there is no more running, to where their faith means everything to them, they will always have a tendency to see faith as something they exorcise rather then given to them of God. 

Anyway, faith is grace, an undeserved gift. It's something we exorcise, but only by His strength and not of our own. It's something that is built up in us. 

~ just some thoughts ~


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## py3ak (Jul 23, 2011)

By faith certain marvellous things happened, such as women receiving back their dead. By faith, likewise, people suffered through horrendous things. It is apparent, then, that faith enables us to endure, as well as to act, and that we please God both by working and by suffering.
But does the structure of the passage, the movement from amazing deliverances, like the mouths of lions being stopped, to amazing torments, like being sawn asunder, teach us something beyond that?


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## a mere housewife (Jul 23, 2011)

David, thanks for those thoughts. I too have been thinking about the persecuted church. I'm afraid my questions are often very unclear. Ruben is better at speaking clearly than I am.  In this case, what he said at the end of his post is very much what I'm wondering about -- throughout this chapter, the statements are expressed so that it is easy to see that certain things are effected by faith. People obey, conceive children, invoke blessings, foretell the future, are kept alive, choose to value affliction with God's people more than pleasure in a passing world, cross seas on foot, etc -- up to this crescendo of all the other things, where people conquer kingdoms, enforce justice, quench fire, escape death -- but the crescendo all leads up to these final expressions of what faith does, in which people seem to effect nothing at all. They are sawn asunder. They are homeless. They are stoned. The only thing that stands out as a wonder in these last circumstances of what seems to be no deliverance and nothing effected, is the faith itself. It seems the chapter drives to this point in a sense, and I am wondering if there is something to be learned from that.

And Bob, thanks for eating popcorn on my thread. I always like to find those little pieces of popcorn shreds lying around.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 23, 2011)

There may be some things to be gleaned from the order. I think that's a "second-level" interpretive deduction. Primarily, the author is taking the biblical material largely "in order,' beginning from the start, moving ahead.

I think, perhaps, it might be safe to say that the farther along in the whole story of the Covenant of Grace we go, the more the message becomes clear that this world is not our permanent dwelling. In fact, it becomes hostile to us, and our "power" over our circumstances becomes less important. The vital thing is God's power over all circumstances, and his works on our behalf, entirely outside of us. Endurance becomes more important than effectiveness, just as we age, and lose our "powers" to accomplish things in the body. Faith still drives us to act, to love our neighbors, to do good to friends and enemies--to work, in other words. But faith is contrary to work, at the most basic level.

But one thing that I like to stress (as I preach through the life a Jacob, one of the early saints of Scripture), is that the name "Israel" is a witness not to our strength, but to God's. Remember, Jacob overcomes in his wrestling with God/prayer, not by winning but by losing. Even to fight with the Angel like that required supernatural strength from elsewhere (as Calvin says: he comes against us, as it were by the left hand, while his right hand upholds us with invincible strength). But the point of the name "Israel" (God Strives) is to show that salvation is not going to come--directly--by Jacob's striving, or anyone else'. But it will happen by an essentially monergistic divine work.

So, our contributions to this effort are 1) non-existent, so far as actually accomplishing anything; 2) done in the power of God when we are incorporated in the work; 3) childlike and ineffectual when evaluated on their own merits; 4) graciously and lovingly received when done for Christ's sake; 5) overruled and turned to a good end by a sovereign design when they are contrary for any reason.

So, the longer we evaluate the whole, the more evident that our primary efforts are best put toward developing and deepening our faith and prayer, looking to see what God is doing in my, and despite my, weaknesses. Patience and endurance do more to bring glory to God than the ground covered by my steps of faith, than my exercise of power in the circumstances.


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## Reformation Monk (Jul 23, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I think, perhaps, it might be safe to say that the farther along in the whole story of the Covenant of Grace we go, the more the message becomes clear that this world is not our permanent dwelling. In fact, it becomes hostile to us, and our "power" over our circumstances becomes less important. The vital thing is God's power over all circumstances, and his works on our behalf, entirely outside of us. Endurance becomes more important than effectiveness, just as we age, and lose our "powers" to accomplish things in the body. Faith still drives us to act, to love our neighbors, to do good to friends and enemies--to work, in other words. But faith is contrary to work, at the most basic level.



I am going through a season of my life and my families life right now of pretty intense spiritual warfare. In the last couple of months, I've been lead over and over again to rely and trust in the Lord through prayer rather then through action. Even though there is still an importance upon what I do and say.... what I do and what I say that is keeping in step with the Spirit; It is very obvious to me that, everything that has happened in my life and my families life recently is the direct result of the power and moving of the Spirit. 

I really appreciate Rev. Buchanan's wisdom here, because the more intense the Spiritual Battle get's, the more I'm brought to my knee's and into humility. I'm in a battle against the principalities of this age, against Satin and as a humble servant, life for me here in my earthly tabernacle really isn't that important anymore. Gaining victories for me now isn't about earthly things, it's much more about spiritual things.... even unto death. 

So I'm kind of thinking about martyrdom here in these last couple of versus and how this might be a seemingly defeated situation from an earthly standpoint, but from a Spiritual standpoint I believe it is a vary big victory? 

So maybe this thought lends itself to the "beyond" idea of the passage. But maybe I'm still stuck on the obvious meaning. Not sure.  either way, it has been a good exploration none the less.


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## a mere housewife (Jul 23, 2011)

Rev. Buchanan, I'm glad you commented (I was hoping you might have something to say about this). I will have to copy some of those things out. If I understand then, if one could take away something secondarily from the structure of the passage, we might say that in the final analysis it is not so much what faith does but that faith is -- and faith by virtue of what it is -- by virtue of what it receives -- endures. I'm sure that's a very stammering and inadequate paraphrase.

David, I have had similar thoughts on this (and incidentally I think the 'obvious' meaning of the passage is one never to get beyond). There is such an incredible 'jar' to reading that by faith they were homeless and swords hurt them and saws cut them and they were destitute of proper clothing -- _by faith_. It is even more jarring to realise that this is the 'windup' of the impressive narration of the miraculous that has gone before. I have been thinking of their sheepskins and goatskins in context of Christ's statement about the lilies of the field -- 'shall he not much more clothe you, _O ye of little faith_?' I suppose that to me there is a deep rest in realising that by faith, God clothes some of His people with nakedness. I struggle with feeling that unless faith effects something that looks more like the first half of the chapter, either it is too 'little' -- or worse, God is really the false friend of Psalm 55. I look at the persecuted church and struggle with doubt. So there is, oddly enough, a great and quite simple peace in understanding that faith is such that fire can burn it and stones can hurt it; that these things do not in fact assault the very nature of what it is -- or of its Object.


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## Wayne (Jul 24, 2011)

Four sermons located on the Hebrews 11:33-38 text:

11:34
Spurgeon, C.H., "God's Cure for Man's Weakness," #697, _MTP_ 12.349-360.

Spurgeon, C.H., "The Best Strengthening Medicine," #2209, _MTP_ 37.325-336.

11:37
Spurgeon, C.H., "They Were Tempted," #1528, _MTP_ 26.169-180.

11:38
Jenkin, William, untitled, _Farewell Sermons_, pp. 61-74.

Of those, the one by Jenkin begins this way:



> The apostle in this excellent chapter, (that by some is deservedly called a little book of martyrs) discovers the triumph of faith, or victory against all difficulty we meet with.
> I. Faith assents to truths be they never so improbable.
> II. It puts men upon duties, be they never so irrational, or against carnal interest.
> III. It enables to sufferings, be they never so afflictive. These worthies went through all by the victory that overcame the world, the bitterness as well as the sweetness thereof.
> ...


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## a mere housewife (Jul 24, 2011)

Thank you for those references and for that quote especially. 'Faith assents to truths be they never so improbable' does seem to accurately describe the impression those last verses leave. And that last sentence (the thirdly) especially is very helpful to me. God is indeed our greatest earthly comfort.


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## Wayne (Jul 24, 2011)

If Ruben doesn't have a copy of that volume of _Farewell Sermons_ in his library (for shame!), 
it is available over on archive.org, specifically at 

http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924029358789


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## Peairtach (Jul 24, 2011)

> "stopped the mouths of lions" (KJV)


This possibly refers to Daniel.



> "Quenched the violence of fire"


This possibly refers to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.

It takes faith to think you may die for the Lord and yet be saved out of it after all.



> They were stoned, they were sawn asunder,





> were slain with the sword



It takes faith to die for the Lord without being saved from death.



> And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:





> were tempted





> they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
> (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.



It takes faith to live for the Lord in difficult circumstances or less difficult circumstances.


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