# Orange Order?



## ericfromcowtown (Aug 1, 2011)

I went out for a pint with an old friend this weekend who told me that he is now a member of the Orange Order fraternal organization. I know little about this group. Does anyone have any experience with it? 

When I think of groups like this I immediately think of the Masons and what I think is a wise aversion by Christians to membership in the Masons. Is this a fair comparison, or is membership in the Orange Order a legitimate activity for Christians? I half-jokingly asked if the Orange Order had a secret handshake, like the Masons, and he answered (perhaps in jest) that they do, but theirs is cooler. I am not talking about a general dislike for para-church organizations, but specifically about those organizations which might be considered "secret societies" or otherwise like the Masons in their odd rituals etc... Again, I don't know if the Orange Order would fairly fit into this category.

Orange Order in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Orange Order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Rufus (Aug 2, 2011)

From my understanding not everybody in the "Orange Order" is a truly regenerate Christian (well okay you could make that argument against a church but let me finish), in the UK I believe it still conatates to being from a Protestant background, especially in Northern Ireland, hence the color orange on the Irish flag (with the white center symbolizing division and the Green for Catholics).

http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/orange-order-3597/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/happy-orangemans-day-61879/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/will-you-wear-orange-saturday-19926/


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## JP Wallace (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm from Northern Ireland - birthplace and home to the vast majority of Orange Order Lodges and members.

It is a relatively secret organisation, and has certain traits similar to the Masons, but in my opinion it does not appear to be as syncretistic and mystical as them. It is practically only for orthodox Protestants, and professes to uphold and protect the Reformed Faith. I believe this is laughable given that the vast majority of members in my opinion are not even true believers, wouldn't know the Reformed Theology from Hinduism and are more interested in a pint of beer than a catechism, most are cultural Protestants at best.

There are true believers in it, there are a good number of ministers in it.

My biggest issue with it from a Christian point of view is that I would find it very difficult to square up how I could speak to a Roman Catholic about Christ one day and then be seen by them and perceived by them the next as being in a organisation that 'hates' them.

Here is a extract from the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland's Testimony

"There are several secret societies in existence. Some are older than others and some are more prominent than others. The Church's attitude to such organisations must be determined by a study of Scripture. From such a study we find that the teaching and practice of secret societies are in conflict with the Word of God in the following ways:-
1. Unscriptural Secrecy
The practice of secrecy is contrary to the teaching of the Word of God, and to the example of the Lord Jesus Christ. He said "I have spoken openly to the world, ... I said nothing in secret." Secrecy is also damaging to society and is contrary to its well-being. "Whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
2. Unlawful Oaths
Membership in secret societies involves taking an oath before being aware of the obligation. No man is at liberty to bind his conscience by oath without a knowledge of the nature and extent of his undertaking. In doing so he is being bound to a law other than, and, in the light of further knowledge, possibly in conflict with, the revealed law of God. "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge", "It is a trap for man to dedicate something rashly and only later to consider his vows".
3. Unsocial Benevolence
The benevolence of secret societies is confined to a "brotherhood" which is not warranted by the Word of God. Scripture gives clear direction for our good works. "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."
4. Unchristian Fellowship
True fellowship exists only between those who are united by saving faith to the Lord Jesus Christ. Freemasonry, for example, excludes the mediation of Christ and accepts, as brothers, representatives of many non-Christian religions. Scripture, however, clearly teaches that we can have fellowship with one another only because "our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.""

Then specifically concerning the Orange Order,

"The Orange Order recognises the need for a faithful witness against the errors of Roman Catholicism and that all true Protestants should be united in their faith. Nonetheless, the first three reasons mentioned above (Unscriptural secrecy, unlawful oaths, unsocial benevolence) can be cited against membership in the Orange Order. In addition, we believe that the Orange Order is in error because:-
(a) it usurps the place of the Church
God has ordained the Church as His instrument in the world for the defence of the Faith and the propagation of the Gospel. Scripture teaches that "the Church of the Living God" is the "pillar and foundation of the truth." The existence of a secret society which claims to have this authority of Christ, the Church's King and Head;
(b) of its political emphasis
The Orange Order lays great stress on the political aspect of the Revolution Settlement of 1688. By doing so it fails to acknowledge the Kingship of Christ over the nation. It was precisely because the Revolution Settlement did not acknowledge either Christ's Kingship or the doctrines of the Second Reformation that Covenanters stood aside from it;
(c) of its unqualified allegiance to the British Constitution
In becoming a member of the Order a person commits himself to support and maintain the British Constitution and the Laws of the Nation. Such allegiance denies the Crown rights of King Jesus whose kingly rule is not acknowledged by this Constitution and whose authority is flouted by unbiblical laws.
For these reasons it is inconsistent for Christians to identify with this Order.
The Reformed Presbyterian Church believes that the Christian should not become a member of an oath-bound secret society. It strongly affirms that Christians are called to show benevolence to all men (Gal.6:10), to enjoy true fellowship (1John 1:3), and to bear a faithful witness in the world (Acts 1:8). This must be done in a way which God has directed and which will honour His Son, Jesus Christ."

Source: The Church and Secret Societies


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## JoannaV (Aug 2, 2011)

Compared to freemasonry it appears positively sublime, but Wallace's quotation seems a useful one. The Canadian Orange Order's website certainly seems to focus on political and fraternal aspects whilst mixing some Protestantism in. It may be a little less pernicious in Canada than N.I. as it may not quite so injure ones testimony to Roman Catholics, although I may be wrong.
All I knew about them before this was that they marched, sometimes through controversial neighbourhoods. So I don't feel they do a good job at giving any credible testimony of anything much, even political.


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## Peairtach (Aug 2, 2011)

The Orange Order is as much (or more of) a political organisation as a religious one, motivated by concerns about Roman Catholic power in Ireland vis-a-vis Protestantism.

Many of its members are more interested in Glasgow Rangers football team and drinking than in genuine Christianity.

Some fine genuine Christians - like Rev. Ian Paisley - have been and still are members. You would have to study it closely - and the history and current situation in Ireland - to see if it is profitable to join.

Ultimately Romanism in Ireland will be eliminated by its shooting itself in the foot (paedo priests) and by the Gospel. 

Secularism is as big a problem in Ireland - or bigger - as Romanism.


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## JP Wallace (Aug 2, 2011)

Agreed Richard, other than to be pedantic and note that in fact (lessor known fact!) Paisley has never been a member of the Orange Order, he has had very close ties to the Independent Orange Order but he has never actually been a member of that institution either!

Still, your point stands - there have been and are many fine Christian men in the Order, in fact many of the most evangelical ministers in the Presbyterian Church of Ireland have been.

I could not agree more with the rest of your points.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

P.S I find it incredibly funny that I am discussing Orangism on Puritanboard - never thought I'd do that!


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## Skyler (Aug 2, 2011)

The conclusion I'm seeing here is that we, on the PuritanBoard, need to start a new *really* Christian secret society, the Banana Order.

 

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

Better - the Secret Banana Circle.


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## ericfromcowtown (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the responses, especially the extract from the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland.

I too had never heard of the Orange Order, other than vague recollections of questionable marches in Northern Ireland. Apparently, though, there are a number of lodges here in Alberta.

My friend did emphasize the social aspects of the lodge. I guess one of my questions was, is the Orange Order a Christian organization with social aspects, or a social club with Christian window-dressing? I think the latter is more the case, given the responses above.


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## JennyG (Aug 2, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I guess one of my questions was, is the Orange Order a Christian organization with social aspects, or a social club with Christian window-dressing? I think the latter is more the case, given the responses above.


I'm grateful for all the insight above into an organisation I knew little about besides the name.
In some parts of Scotland the Orange Order has such a bad name (not for the offence of the Gospel but for sectarian violence) it's hard to believe it could be truly Christian


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## JP Wallace (Aug 2, 2011)

I would have to say that in Northern Ireland the Order and Lodge members have rarely and in many places never been involved in any violence - those who attend the marches etc. may have and arguably their presence and marches have been a factor in violence - but the number of Orangemen convicted or even investigated for any violence is small I would reckon. 

Jenny, that's not to negate your comment, I think sometimes the sectarianism is stronger and more intense over in Scotland than over here - the hatred between Rangers and Celtic fans really does have to be seen to be believed (though of course a number of those fans may have travelled over from here!)

Also the Orange Lodge held huge sway in Ontario and especially in Toronto in the past - I had always heard that and then this afternoon found this on Wikipedia -

"The Orange Order became a central facet of life in Ontario, especially in the business centre of Toronto where many deals and relationships were forged at the lodge. Toronto politics, especially on the municipal level, were almost wholly dominated by the Orange Order. At its height in 1942 16 of the 23 members of city council were members of the Orange Order.[2] Every mayor of Toronto in the first half of the twentieth century was an Orangeman. This continued until the 1954 election when the Jewish Nathan Phillips defeated radical Orange leader Leslie Howard Saunders."


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## Reformed Thomist (Aug 2, 2011)

JP Wallace said:


> Also the Orange Lodge held huge sway in Ontario and especially in Toronto in the past - I had always heard that and then this afternoon found this on Wikipedia -
> 
> "The Orange Order became a central facet of life in Ontario, especially in the business centre of Toronto where many deals and relationships were forged at the lodge. Toronto politics, especially on the municipal level, were almost wholly dominated by the Orange Order. At its height in 1942 16 of the 23 members of city council were members of the Orange Order.[2] Every mayor of Toronto in the first half of the twentieth century was an Orangeman. This continued until the 1954 election when the Jewish Nathan Phillips defeated radical Orange leader Leslie Howard Saunders."



Was just going to mention this. The Order's roots in Toronto run deep indeed.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 2, 2011)

At least he isn't talking about agent orange.


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## JonathanHunt (Aug 2, 2011)

Peairtach said:


> (paedo priests)



By which he means paedophiles, not paedobaptists...

On a related note, I know Northern Irish who live here and are sorry to miss the 'marching season' (Orange order marches) for no other reason than that they are excuses to get drunk.


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## JP Wallace (Aug 2, 2011)

Sounds about right Jonathan.

Having said that there are only a few 'official' march days like the 12th July, most lodges will have a Sunday parade to a church service etc - the real drinking and debauchery takes place at the hundreds of band parades in the evenings which really are the marching season. These are the same bands who will process with the Orange Lodges, but there will be no Orange presence at the vast majority of these band parades which are mainly to a) mark territory b) raise money for the band uniforms etc. and c) sometimes annoy 'the other side'. 

Also of course there are some tremendous silver flute bands and brass bands who will only parade on the bigs days and the rest of the year are just like local brass bands in England. And well the pipe bands are just brilliant and is one of the best parts of our Ulster/Scots culture.

It really is complicated and it's only when one tries to explain it that one realises it!


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## dudley (Aug 2, 2011)

JP Wallace said:


> I'm from Northern Ireland - birthplace and home to the vast majority of Orange Order Lodges and members.
> 
> It is a relatively secret organisation, and has certain traits similar to the Masons, but in my opinion it does not appear to be as syncretistic and mystical as them. It is practically only for orthodox Protestants, and professes to uphold and protect the Reformed Faith. I believe this is laughable given that the vast majority of members in my opinion are not even true believers, wouldn't know the Reformed Theology from Hinduism and are more interested in a pint of beer than a catechism, most are cultural Protestants at best.
> 
> ...



I agree with the position of the Orange Order that ""The Orange Order recognises the need for a faithful witness against the errors of Roman Catholicism and that all true Protestants should be united in their faith." However I understand Your reservations and reasons against it I also agree with Richard Tallach when he says "Some fine genuine Christians - like Rev. Ian Paisley - have been and still are members. You would have to study it closely - and the history and current situation in Ireland - to see if it is profitable to join.

Ultimately Romanism in Ireland will be eliminated by its shooting itself in the foot (paedo priests) and by the Gospel. 

Secularism is as big a problem in Ireland - or bigger - as Romanism." it is also why I believe we Reformed Protestants should evangelize Roman catholics at this time....many are disalusioned and leaving the church but not going anywhere except to secularlism. I believe Romanism is being eliminated in the US and Western Europe....In the US 30 million catholics have left in recent years and 15 million are now Protestants like I am...but he other 15 million are lost sheep....the roman catholic church is in fact dying by its own sins!

Reactions: Like 1


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## caoclan (Aug 2, 2011)

I have never heard of this order, but agree with the sentiments that Christians should not be in the secret societies.


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## baron (Aug 2, 2011)

Skyler said:


> The conclusion I'm seeing here is that we, on the PuritanBoard, need to start a new *really* Christian secret society, the Banana Order.



Hey can I join the Banana Order. I love Banana's!

As far as Order of the Orange, the only thing I know being half Irish, my uncle told me storie's about them from my grandfather. He hated what was refered to as Orange Men, and he was not talking about the Syracuse Orange Men. If he ever came in contact with them he would get his gun. Now I do not know if the stories are true or not but they were to my grandfather. He blamed them with the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians for stealing Nothern Ireland from the Irish. He always wanted to see an Ireland governed by the Irish. Now my grandfather passed away around 1956 and as an Irish man he was discriminated against his whole life, so this probablly led to bitterness on his part..


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## JM (Aug 2, 2011)

Looks interesting. I'm more of an _odd fellow_.


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## Pilgrim (Aug 3, 2011)

Here is a site with more information on the Orange Institutions, the relation to freemasonry, etc. Secret societies of the world exposed

There have been one or more extensive threads about it on the PB in past years.


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