# "Kneelers" in a Reformed church?



## shackleton (Aug 12, 2007)

The church my wife and I have attended off and on is building a new building. They have placed "kneelers" under each pew for the purpose of kneeling during certain parts of the service, when the elders pray, and during a time of confession. Is this something else that is a part of Reformed worship that I have not heard of (like EP) or is this not that unusual?


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

Before the Puritan Era all Reformed Churches had kneelers and used them.. During the time of the Puritans vs. the Church of England it became an issue because of kneeling while taking the elements of the Lord's Supper. Soon after kneeling was completely taken out of English Reformed Churches and it followed to America.

Kneeling during prayer is not wrong and is a very biblical gesture of prayer. In fact the bible mentions kneeling as the most common practice when praying through out the bible followed by standing in worship. Prostration was mentioned during times of private grievous repentance and private worship... Sitting is never mentioned as a gesture of prayer...

I see nothing wrong with kneeling and feel we should bring it back into worship.. (as long as the are padded for my bad knees) 

Michael



shackleton said:


> The church my wife and I have attended off and on is building a new building. They have placed "kneelers" under each pew for the purpose of kneeling during certain parts of the service, when the elders pray, and during a time of confession. Is this something else that is a part of Reformed worship that I have not heard of (like EP) or is this not that unusual?


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## etexas (Aug 12, 2007)

Kneeling in worship has mention and roots in the OT, people knelt before the Lord in the NT, there are countless mentions in the early Church, we Anglicans (briefly) removed them, but quickly restored them as Biblical. I am clad to see other Churches restore this Holy and humble posture of Worship. And yes...........get padded kneelers!


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> I see nothing wrong with kneeling and feel we should bring it back into worship.. (as long as the are padded for my bad knees)



Guess which famous Southern Baptist church has kneelers? I'll betcha you'll never guess in million years. 

[You Baptists who know, stay out of this for a bit]


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## etexas (Aug 12, 2007)

Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > I see nothing wrong with kneeling and feel we should bring it back into worship.. (as long as the are padded for my bad knees)
> ...


Is it one in Fort Worth.............................


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## shackleton (Aug 12, 2007)

Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > I see nothing wrong with kneeling and feel we should bring it back into worship.. (as long as the are padded for my bad knees)
> ...



Charles Stanley or Rick Warren?


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

First Baptist Dallas
Criswell

The internet is a great search place...  though, I really never heard of him... My circles tend to be toward the Montvillian Reformed Baptist Circles and RPCNA Circles.......

Michael




Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > I see nothing wrong with kneeling and feel we should bring it back into worship.. (as long as the are padded for my bad knees)
> ...


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## etexas (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> First Baptist Dallas
> Criswell
> 
> The internet is a great search place...  though, I really never heard of him... My circles tend to be toward the Montvillian Reformed Baptist Circles and RPCNA Circles.......
> ...



That was mean!  He cheated Ivan!


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

John Calvin on Kneeling

In Calvin’s Geneva, during the corporate confession, “They knelt at the pastor’s call (It was hard for Calvin to conceive of any other posture in prayer” (Nichols, 42). [I bet they didn’t have cushy kneelers either.]


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## SRoper (Aug 12, 2007)

We sometimes kneel during confession. I think it is a perfectly acceptable practice just like standing while singing or sitting while listening to the preached word.


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## SRoper (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh we don't have kneelers, either.


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

Fingolfin said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > First Baptist Dallas
> ...



I know and he's a Baptist too. You just can't trust 'em!


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> First Baptist Dallas
> Criswell
> 
> The internet is a great search place...  though, I really never heard of him... My circles tend to be toward the Montvillian Reformed Baptist Circles and RPCNA Circles.......
> ...



Ahem! You never heard of Wallie Amos!! How can that be possible?! I'm sorry, Michael, your Baptist History is quite lacking!


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

No, My Southern Baptist History is lacking.... I pretty much know of Boyce who help start the SBC, and Al Mohler Today but that is pretty much it........

My knowledge of Baptist History tends towards Henry Jacob, Henry Jessey, William Kifflin, Hanserd Knollys, Ben Keach, Nehemiah Cox, Benjamin Cox, Hercules Collins, William Collins, , John Bunyan, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Walter Chantry, Al Martin, Mark Chanski, etc...



Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > First Baptist Dallas
> ...


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> No, My Southern Baptist History is lacking.... I pretty much know of Boyce who help start the SBC, and Al Mohler Today but that is pretty much it........
> 
> My knowledge of Baptist History tends towards Henry Jacob, Henry Jessey, William Kifflin, Hanserd Knollys, Ben Keach, Nehemiah Cox, Benjamin Cox, Hercules Collins, William Collins, , John Bunyan, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Walter Chantry, Al Martin, Mark Chanski, etc...



Ahhh...dude! You left out Jerry Vines, Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley! What am I going to do with you! 

BTW, my favorites are Charles Spurgeon and John Bunyan. Once our church gets a building and I get an study I'm putting up paintings of both of them.


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

Could it be that I am not Southern Baptist 

I just read on Wikipedia that Adrian Rogers was totally against Reformed Theology and Calvinism....




Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > No, My Southern Baptist History is lacking.... I pretty much know of Boyce who help start the SBC, and Al Mohler Today but that is pretty much it........
> ...


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Could it be that I am not Southern Baptist



You mean that there are other kinds of Baptists!! I can't believe it!!!  Frankly, I don't make a very good Southern Baptist either, but I'm going to stick to my guns and give it the good fight!



> I just read on Wikipedia that Adrian Rogers was totally against Reformed Theology and Calvinism....



Indeed, as well as Stanley, Vines, et al. Many Southern Baptist pastors feels that way.

I have a Southern Baptist friend, Roger Ellsworth, pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Benton, IL (who introduced me to the doctrines of grace over thirty years ago) who is a Founders Ministries type (he preached at their breakfast at the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention one year). He actually struck up a friendship with Adrian Rogers. As I recall I was an instigator of that friendship. Roger and I attended the Pastor's Conference prior to the annual Southern Baptist Convention in Kansas City (circa 1976 or so). Adrian Rogers was one of the preachers. Rogers preached the last sermon right before lunch. As the pastors were milling around Rogers, my friend was debating whether to introduce himself. I told him, "Roger, why not?!!" Well, long story short, he did. That started it. 

Last summer I was visiting Roger in Benton and we were discussing the passing of Adrian Rogers. Roger said, "Yes, he is with the LORD now, but I dare say his theology has greatly changed now". Adrian Rogers might have been against Calvinism, but I think I can say he wasn't against at least one Calvinist.


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## Coram Deo (Aug 12, 2007)

Well if a Southern Baptist Church around here was anything like Mark Dever's Church the SBC in DC, I might try to stick it out and give it a good fight but most of the SBCs around here are even more lamentable and I grieve just coming out of worship at one of them. 20 mins of announcements, Revivalistic Feel good Songs, pass around the tray, greet everyone, and a 20 min sermonette that is about what the pastor remembers of his young adulthood and close with everyone holding hands singing cumbalamya Lord or Jesus Loves Me this I know.

Dever's church is better but I would still grieve from the song/music and some other things....





Ivan said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > Could it be that I am not Southern Baptist
> ...


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## LadyFlynt (Aug 12, 2007)

I see kneeling much preferred to standing...Just my humble opinion.


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## Ivan (Aug 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Well if a Southern Baptist Church around here was anything like Mark Dever's Church the SBC in DC, I might try to stick it out and give it a good fight but most of the SBCs around here are even more lamentable and I grieve just coming out of worship at one of them. 20 mins of announcements, Revivalistic Feel good Songs, pass around the tray, greet everyone, and a 20 min sermonette that is about what the pastor remembers of his young adulthood and close with everyone holding hands singing cumbalamya Lord or Jesus Loves Me this I know.



Thankfully I've neither been a member of such a Southern Baptist church nor the pastor of one, but that was by my choice and God's grace. I realize that there are many, _many_ Southern Baptist churches as you have described. It's a sad thing. It's a sas thing inside and outside the SBC. I believe we live in a land of spiritual wilderness.



> Dever's church is better but I would still grieve from the song/music and some other things....



I think Dever is great! He is a bright and shining light in the SBC. We (confessional, particular, Founder Ministries Baptists) are making inroads but the journey is difficult. Pray for us!


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## JM (Aug 13, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> I see kneeling much preferred to standing...Just my humble opinion.



I agree.


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