# Dwarfed but confidently growing



## blhowes (Jun 25, 2003)

I've been attending this forum for a while now and I must say that its a blessing in so many ways. What an excellent resource for learning new things (and for meeting a lot of nice folks).

Not to puff (no, I'm not talking about you-know-what) any of you up, but I must admit that at times I feel like an real intellectual dwarf. I sometimes wonder if a person, like myself, that doesn't have the kind of training (Bible school, seminary, knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, etc) that many/most of you have can really decide whether covenant theology or the reformed baptist theology (or NCT or ...) is correct? Is this something that a &quot;laymen&quot; should expect to be able to figure out?

I come from the baptist tradition and won't change until I convince myself (or I should say the Lord teaches me) that the tradition is incorrect. As I mentioned a while ago, I sometimes wonder what things would have been like if the Lord had used a Presbyterian or a reformed congregationalist to witness to me instead of a baptist. Perhaps I'd be in the same boat, except I'd be trying to figure out if I should change to the baptist tradition.

Bob

[Edited on 6-26-2003 by blhowes]


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## wsw201 (Jun 25, 2003)

Bob,

There are folks on both sides of these various issues that have been to Seminary and know Greek and Hebrew backwards and forwards and graciously disagree with each other. Whether Baptist, Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed it comes down to the Gospel. And the Gospel should not be that complicated, though it seems sometimes we make it that way.

PS - If you had started out Presbyterian you wouldn't think about going Baptist 

Wayne


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## puritanpilgrim (Jun 25, 2003)

[quote:88b0573349]
If you had started out Presbyterian you wouldn't think about going Baptist 
[/quote:88b0573349]

Ba Humbug


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## lkjohnson (Jun 25, 2003)

blhowes:

No, seminary is not required. My father had a seventh grade education and he understood this stuff better than I do with my M.Div. 

A big part of the problem is that we no longer teach substantive doctrine in most Baptist churches. (As a Baptist pastor, I speak from experience.) Furthermore, we don't apply most of the doctrine that we do teach. My suggestion is for you to stay with us here. Lurk around and listen. Learn what you can and start reading some good materials. I would start with the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. (I bet KC and Fred never expected me to recommend that.) It is a good teaching tool and a great place to start. If you don't understand something or want further clarification, post a question. We will be glad to help you understand.

Don't give up. [color=Red:7cb1f2f2ba]&quot;If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.&quot;[/color:7cb1f2f2ba] (James 1:5) That is a great promise of God. Don't let it get away.


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## doulosChristou (Jun 25, 2003)

[quote:ce2b9a26bd][i:ce2b9a26bd]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:ce2b9a26bd]
I've been attending this forum for a while now and I must say that its a blessing in so many ways. What an excellent resource for learning new things (and for meeting a lot of nice folks).

Not to puff (no, I'm not talking about you-know-what) any of you up, but I must admit that at times I feel like an real intellectual dwarf. I sometimes wonder if a person, like myself, that doesn't have the kind of training (Bible school, seminary, knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, etc) that many/most of you have can really decide whether covenant theology or the reformed baptist theology (or NCT or ...) is correct? Is this something that a &quot;laymen&quot; should expect to be able to figure out?

I come from the baptist tradition and won't change until I convince myself (or I should say the Lord teaches me) that the tradition is incorrect. As I mentioned a while ago, I sometimes wonder what things would have been like if the Lord had used a Presbyterian or a reformed congregationalist to witness to me instead of a baptist. Perhaps I'd be in the same boat, except I'd be trying to figure out if I should change to the baptist tradition.

Bob [/quote:ce2b9a26bd] Bob,

No, I do not believe that one need be seminary-trained, know Greek and Hebrew, have read Witsius, VanMastricht, Kline, et al. in order to comprehend the basic teachings of Scripture regarding God's covenants with men and Christ's ordinance of Baptism. Any layman can read Scripture and discern these things plainly. In fact, it is often the seminaries and multitude of book writers who introduce our minds to grandiose ideas and concepts designed to explain or describe Scripture but that are, in the final analysis, inadequate and sometimes even misleading. I make it a habit of drawing my own conclusions prayerfully directly from a careful study of the Scripture alone and only then compare and check it with what other men have had to say. Statistically speaking, if a mere man writes 7 volumes of commentary on the book of Hebrews, rest assured that many of its thousands of pages contain contradictions, internal inconsistencies and errors. The living God, who indwells all believers, makes the best teacher of his perfect and transforming revelation given to us in the Old and New Testaments.

Grace and peace, dC


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## grace2U (Jun 25, 2003)

Bob,
Don't let anyone make you feel dwarfed!! Just check out what people are saying against your Bible (NOT NIV!), buy yourself a Young's Analytical Concordance and don't let anyone look down on you. Dusting off dead men's brains and serving them up cold is all very well, but the dead men themselves went to their Bible with much prayer and relied on the Holy Spirit for illumination.
William Tyndale gave his life for the translation of the Bible so that, &quot;the boy who wields the plough may know the Scriptures&quot;. If only those who know the original languages can properly study the Bible then Tyndale died in vain.
Having said that, to know the original languages is certainly very helpful, but don't let not knowing them intimidate you.
Every blessing,
Steve


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## luvroftheWord (Jun 25, 2003)

I get the impression that a few people are a little perturbed.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 25, 2003)

Surely, all of us are at various stages in their Christian walk. Just think about where each of us, individually, will be in 10 years from now if the Lord tarries? What will we have studied? What will we have ventured into? What will we have debated and learned from? How will others have sharpened us? What ideas will be learn that we may not even have a clue about today?

Remember Christ's words, that some will reap 30, some 60, and some 100 fold. It is by his ordination and decree. Is it not all by his grace, and all by his help? Who makes us differ one from another? Shall any of us say, &quot;It is I?&quot; He would be rebuked for such in a moment.

Also remember that all of the world's teachers, from all of history, are &quot;ours.&quot; 1 Cor. 3:21, "For all things are yours." God has given them to us to help us in our own reading, our own study and our own conclusions. There are men throughout history that dwarf us - they will always be there. Some people are more attune to Hebrew, Greek, systematic theology, NT, OT, or whatever discipline the Lord blesses them in. This is clearly seen just from those who have the privilege of going to seminary - there are OT teachers, NT teachers, Greek Teachers, History teachers - you see, no one can know it all. There are different teachers for each discipline because information about Jesus Christ is enormous. Few are gifted enough to know more than one. But all are gifted by the same Spirit who renders to each one as he sees fit.

Let us all be encouraged, that no matter where we are at on the &quot;theological spectrum of truth (and I mean that we know the truth but in varying degrees of it) that Christ is pleased with his work in us - his Son working in and through us. And yet, we strive ever onwards to reach the goal and attain the prize.

Let us study, let us learn, let us continue in our efforts to be more intimate with Christ, not simply intellectually ready. Tyndale, as Steve rightly said, purposed his whole life around putting the Scriptures in the hands of those who may not have been the brightest or the most intelligent - the plougboys - the dung swingers. That is why God gives us the Tyndales of our day. But every ploughboy should be able to pick up the word, read it, and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He has, in His word, given us everything that pertains to life and godliness. We can find it in there if we are prepared to do so by His Spirit. And the more we read it, the more we master it. The more we master it, the more we are always ready to give an answer. The more we are ready to give an answer, the more we can do to affect the kingdom of Heaven. The more we can affect the Kingdom, the more people will be saved and edified in the truth. The more people are saved and edified, the more glory we bring to God. And all of us, at any stage in our walk, have the ability to influence or be influenced. 

Romans 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

1 Corinthians 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Colossians 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


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## pastorway (Jun 25, 2003)

Keep in mind that Jesus was always most attentive to the &quot;least of these&quot; and He taught that the first will be last and the last first. Those who want to lead must do so by serving and those who want to live to God must die to themselves. 

Jesus came for sinners, not the sanctimonious......those who are well (in their own minds eye anyway) don't have any need for the Great Physician. 

Our knowledge must drive us to a deeper love for Christ. If instead it leads to love of self (pride) then that knowledge only adds to our accoutability before the Throne!! The more you know the more accountable you will be held (Luke 12:48).

And remember, knowledge is nothing without [i:a98a009d68]understanding[/i:a98a009d68]. We should all pray that we understand what we know!!!

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so if you fear Him you are already more wise than most!


Phillip :biggrin:

[Edited on 6-26-03 by pastorway]


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## Drdad (Jun 25, 2003)

Bob,

The best thing to do, I have found, is to get together one-on-one with other people. This board is good and has much to offer, but the one-on-one is best. See if you Pastor can help you along. 

For me, there are some things the Presbytereans discuss that are foriegn to a Baptist. This has been a challenge to me and in some ways I have seen that though we have the same theology in some areas, our thought process to get to those areas are different. For instance, I am an exegetical lover. Thus, I tend to be more NCT because the traditional CT has some assumptions on the text that my pure exegesis cannot deduce and other areas where they align I sometimes think we get there very much differently. This exegetical focus I have almost got me kicked out of my first Seminary (I guess they don't like it when you tell them that there is no Biblical basis for their strongly held belief). 

The key is to study the Scripture and obtain a good theology book to help keep you on track. If you are having trouble with CT and NCT and all that it entails, you probably also are having problems with other areas. Don't focus too much on NCT and CT until you have built a base in other areas. Why? NCT and CT build on a lot of other theology (Grace/Law, nature of a covenant, etc...). 

Finally, there is a line between philosophy and exegesis. Pure exegesis of texts takes precedence over philosophy. Many people in CT, NCT, Disp, Prog Disp, and the like sometimes forget this basic idea.


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## Rev. G (Jun 25, 2003)

[quote:9b40aee760]
PS - If you had started out Presbyterian you wouldn't think about going Baptist 
[/quote:9b40aee760]

wsw: 

Maybe that FRPS topic wasn't such a bad idea after all! 

Hope you know I'm laughing out loud!


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## Rev. G (Jun 25, 2003)

You feel dwarfed too? Fuhgettaboutit!

We are all at different levels. The thing for the more mature to remember is that they are to help those who are less mature to grow (not to be puffed up with knowledge). Those who are less mature need to remember that they need to grow, and need the help of the more mature to do so. We all need each other! Besides, those who are &quot;mature&quot; don't have it all figured out yet. That won't happen until our Lord Jesus returns!

Hang in there, friend!

:biggrin:


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## blhowes (Jun 26, 2003)

Thank-you everybody for the encouraging thoughts and the edifying scriptures shared. They all helped put things into perspective.

Dwarfed but confidently growing,
Bob


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## JasonGoodwin (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> Surely, all of us are at various stages in their Christian walk. Just think about where each of us, individually, will be in 10 years from now if the Lord tarries? What will we have studied? What will we have ventured into? What will we have debated and learned from? How will others have sharpened us? What ideas will be learn that we may not even have a clue about today?
> 
> Remember Christ's words, that some will reap 30, some 60, and some 100 fold. It is by his ordination and decree. Is it not all by his grace, and all by his help? Who makes us differ one from another? Shall any of us say, "It is I?" He would be rebuked for such in a moment.
> ...



Brother Matthew,

Thanks for clearing this up. I really appreciate this. Now I have a better understanding about growing in Christ's grace.


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## Average Joey (Feb 5, 2005)

All of you think you are dwarfed?I`m a highschool drop-out.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> All of you think you are dwarfed?I`m a highschool drop-out.



Technically so am I and a woman to boot....so better you feel like a dwarf than a






We can't afford college for dh let alone seminary...and yet from dh's years of studying the scriptures his friend in seminary is actually challenged by him....and dh is challenged by his friend. Steve is also studying Hermeneutics and Systematic Theology on his own with the hopes of our pastor teaching him Greek soon and eventually training him for the ministry. (I know, lawful calls and all that...go argue it on THAT thread)


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 5, 2005)

All of my spiritual education has been essentially private. The Holy Spirit has filled me with truth. When I first was saved by Gods grace, the Lord saw fit to plant within my mind the desire to know the truth. This desire was to the point of obsession. At one time, I left Florida and drove clear across the country in search of this truth, settling in Grace Community Church (J. MacArthurs congregation). I imagine the best gift the Lord has given me (outside of the obvious, my salvation, Tina and my daughters, family) is my friendship with Matt. It has been a benefit to be close to matt and his wife Therese. This personal tuteledge could not have been had in any seminary or university of higher learning. Still, I believe that all men of God should endeavor to be challenged in these academic settings; it is profitable, no doubt. We are all at different levels; faith has come to each of us in different proportions (some 30, 60 or 90%). In this, we must trust God that all of us are where we should be according to His gifts. To HIM all the praises.


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