# What's your Eschatological Position??



## Blue Tick

What's your eschatological position?


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## Calvinist Cowboy

tentatively a partial-preterist amil


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## toddpedlar

See this poll, from about 8 months ago....


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## Beth Ellen Nagle

toddpedlar said:


> See this poll, from about 8 months ago....




Has it been 8 months? Seems like only yesterday.


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## kalawine

I grew up Premill-Dispensational (though I had no idea what the term meant). I then went to Amill and now (the more I listen to my Bahnsen mp3's) I am walking a tight rope between Amill and Postmill. Dispensational to me = a vague and impossible memory. Postmill = a definite probability.


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## AThornquist

Nicolae Carpathia uses a Mac, too.


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## Theognome

My option wasn't posted- Historical Optimistic Amillennial (Historic as opposed to Futuristic, Preterist, etc...)

Theognome


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## Repre5entYHWH

toddpedlar said:


> See this poll, from about 8 months ago....



why so many postmills? ...


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## forgivenmuch

AThornquist said:


> Nicolae Carpathia uses a Mac, too.



I knew there was a reason I use a PC.


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## nicnap

Repre5entYHWH said:


> why so many postmills? ...



Couldn't resist this one...because, here, on the Puritanboard, so many of us read our Bibles.


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## BG

Postmill


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## Rangerus

unfortunately many of my Baptist brethren are still PreTrib-Premillennial and defend it like their life depended on it. I suspect like me they were all taught this growing up in the 60's, 70's and 80's in the days of rampant dispensationalism.


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## ww

Amillennial


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## PuritanCovenanter

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> tentatively a partial-preterist amil


Me also.


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## Calvinist Cowboy

nicnap said:


> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> why so many postmills? ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't resist this one...because, here, on the Puritanboard, so many of us read our Bibles.
Click to expand...

 
Ooh! That's harsh.


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## nicnap

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> nicnap said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> why so many postmills? ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't resist this one...because, here, on the Puritanboard, so many of us read our Bibles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ooh! That's harsh.
Click to expand...


I know...but he set it up sooo nicely.


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## PuritanCovenanter

If I had two books to read on the subject I would read Clouses four views book and The Promise of the Future by President of Mid-America Reformed Seminary Cornelis P. Venema. I would also recommend a reading of Messiah the Prince by William Symington even though it doesn't discuss eschatology in the way you are looking for but it does lay a foundation that many don't have concerning Christ and His Government of this world. 

Dr. Venema discusses the history behind the doctrinal understandings that most books do not discuss. Post Mil and A mil are really classified as the same until recently, even though they differ in modern day terms of the Kingdom and it's relationship here on earth.


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## PresbyDane

Amillinial


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## Knoxienne

Postie


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## Skyler

I have no idea what you're talking about. 

Well, okay, I have SOME idea. But not enough to know which is which. That's my next planned area of study after I finish my current one.


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## Repre5entYHWH

hmm, i guess i can't harmonize total depravity and 1,000 years of okey dokieness together...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

toddpedlar said:


> See this poll, from about 8 months ago....



C'mon now this is something that needs polled about every 6 months...

-----Added 4/21/2009 at 09:11:53 EST-----

I highly recommend Venema's book. It is one of the few A-Mill books that gives a fair shake to Post-Millennial eschatology. For the interested I think the best Post-Mill book out right now is Keith Mathison's Postmillenialism: An Eschatology of Hope. I also hope (no pun intended) to pick this book up soon, also by Keith Mathison called From Age to Age: The Unfolding of Biblical Eschatology.

-----Added 4/21/2009 at 09:13:51 EST-----

Also a discussion of Eschatology cannot go without mentioning the creme de la creme of eschatology books. Iain Murray's The Puritan Hope.


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## shackleton

I would have to say that I am sort of a partial-preterist/Amil. I believe most of the prophecy in the NT pertained to the first century audience and Revelation was probably written prior to the destruction of the Temple. I also believe that all of the "Lion with lamb" verses pertain to the time when creation has been restored back to its original glory, after the resurrection.


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## DMcFadden

Having read each and EVERY one of the Left Behind books as a NON pre-tribber, I'm either a glutton for punishment or terribly confused. After decades in the historic premill camp (Gundry was my college prof for 32 units and Ladd was my prof in seminary), Riddlebarger's wonderful book won me over to the amil side pretty decisively.


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## LadyFlynt

I confess - I haven't sat down with this one lately as I was working out all my other kinks. However, a few years ago and with the help of my husband and the PB, I did pull away from my Dispensational position and into a historic premil one. I'm riding the fence of postmil while my husband seems to be between postmil and amil.


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## OPC'n

I'm is the correct one...amill!  Know a good thing when I see!


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## SolaScriptura

I used to be completely and absolutely convinced of amil eschatology... but with all the stuff going on in the world: talk of a world currency, the rise of The One.... man, I'm beginning to wonder if it is at least a little bit possible that Nicolae Carpathia is alive!


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## LawrenceU

I have taken to reading my Bible with newspaper in hand. Wait, I don't get a newspaper. I have no hope of being able to tell what is happening. I have no chance of properly interpreting Scripture.

Man, I'm glad I was never a dispensationalist.


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## Josiah

amillennial


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## Knoxienne

sjonee said:


> I'm is the correct one...amill!  Know a good thing when I see!



Oh, well, at least you drink beer!


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## Peairtach

amillennial Postmillenial.

I believe the millennium and the binding of Satan started in the first century, but I believe the Church will grow until it fills the earth and the Gospel leavens the whole earth. Then there will be another  final falling away.


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## jaybird0827

Optimistic amillennial


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## SolaScriptura

SolaScriptura said:


> I used to be completely and absolutely convinced of amil eschatology... but with all the stuff going on in the world: talk of a world currency, the rise of The One.... man, I'm beginning to wonder if it is at least a little bit possible that Nicolae Carpathia is alive!



Just in case anyone was getting worried... I was kidding.


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## steven-nemes

Amill. I think the problem of evil following the second coming of Jesus is a seriously good argument against the premil positions.


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## Parsifal23

I favoured Postmillinalism but now I would say I am an glassi s half empty cracked and leaking Amilinialist.


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## AThornquist

Parsifal23 said:


> I favoured Postmillinalism but now I would say I am an glassi s half empty cracked and leaking Amilinialist.



Ah, that's the spirit!


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## DMcFadden

Joshua said:


> My current eschatalogical position is somewhere before the end.



Josh, is that your penultimate word on the topic?


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## Rich Koster

Call me an Acts 1:11er


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## Parsifal23

AThornquist said:


> Parsifal23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I favoured Postmillinalism but now I would say I am an glassi s half empty cracked and leaking Amilinialist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, that's the spirit!
Click to expand...


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## Solus Christus

Modified Post Mil here (blame Bahnsen), though there isn't much practical difference between that and an optimistic Amil.


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## Edward

OK, it's obvious I'm going to have to learn more about how this board works. I can only figure out how to vote once, and it appears that some folks have voted multiple times.


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## swilson

*Didn't see mine...*

No love for the Pre-mill, Post-Tribs?


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## Calvinist Cowboy

swilson said:


> No love for the Pre-mill, Post-Tribs?


 
That's the historic pre-mill position.


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## Wannabee

LawrenceU said:


> I have taken to reading my Bible with newspaper in hand. Wait, I don't get a newspaper. I have no hope of being able to tell what is happening. I have no chance of properly interpreting Scripture.
> 
> Man, I'm glad I was never a dispensationalist.



Not one to stereotype, eh? 


Premil and pantrib who sees a future for ethnic Israel and subscribes to Tabletalk, but no newspapers. So much for stereotypes...


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## HokieAirman

Partial Preterist Post Mil.


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## Repre5entYHWH

panmillenialist .... it will all pan out in the end  

possible partial prederist amill


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## bookslover

kalawine said:


> I grew up Premill-Dispensational (though I had no idea what the term meant). I then went to Amill and now (the more I listen to my Bahnsen mp3's) I am walking a tight rope between Amill and Postmill. Dispensational to me = a vague and impossible memory. Postmill = a definite probability.



Keep the premil - just ditch the Dispensational.


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## pm

*It does not make a difference as far as my obedience to Christ*

I would like to see another entry in the poll, "It does not make a difference as far as my obedience to Christ" here and now.


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## steven-nemes

Parsifal23 said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parsifal23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I favoured Postmillinalism but now I would say I am an glassi s half empty cracked and leaking Amilinialist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, that's the spirit!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I think he is joking at your pessimism


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## reformedminister

Growing up in the United Methodist Church, I didn't even know Jesus was coming back. I later became a Pretrib Premillennialist because I attended a church that emphatically taught that position. Eventually I came to embrace the Amillennial position.


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## Reformed Thomist

I voted for Barac...er, Nicolae Carpathia.


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## forgivenmuch

Reformed Thomist said:


> I voted for Barac...er, Nicolae Carpathia.



I knew someone would go for it.


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## DMcFadden

You guys are ALL too late! Rayford Steele told me that you've been left behind!


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## JoeRe4mer

Amillennial with a side of pessimism please...


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## brianeschen

Postmil . . .



> Question 191: What do we pray for in the second petition.?
> Answer: In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.


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## DMcFadden

Oh, maybe I misunderstood the question.

My ESCHATOLOGICAL position??? 

Well, I anticipated being glorified, of course. What about yours?


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## brianlve

I voted pre-trib...but I could have as well said still working it out, Anyway, My hope is Pre-Trib, and looking forward to the Rapture And Christ.


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## Bern

I've always been historic premillennial. Mind you coming from a non reformed evangelical background thats probably ingrained in the fabric of my being! This is an area that I know needs very careful study on my part, as its probably the main subject I know least about.


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## kalawine

brianeschen said:


> Postmil . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Question 191: What do we pray for in the second petition.?
> Answer: In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.
Click to expand...


There ya go Brian! Not only does the Bible teach it but the WSC does too!


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## ewenlin

i am simply amazed at the level of jokes within this thread...

gotta love pb


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## Anselm

I'm new here... I have always been a dispensational pre-millennialist but have recently (within the last year or so) been leaning toward either amillennialism or historic premillennialism (wither pre-wrath or post-trib).


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## LawrenceU

Wannabee said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken to reading my Bible with newspaper in hand. Wait, I don't get a newspaper. I have no hope of being able to tell what is happening. I have no chance of properly interpreting Scripture.
> 
> Man, I'm glad I was never a dispensationalist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not one to stereotype, eh?
> 
> 
> Premil and pantrib who sees a future for ethnic Israel and subscribes to Tabletalk, but no newspapers. So much for stereotypes...
Click to expand...



Hey man, just kidding around.


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## Reluctantly Reforming

Beer-drinking partial-pre amillenialist who sometimes takes longing glances over the wall at postmil. But briefly, briefly. 

Strangely, this wasn't one of the options on the poll.


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## Jon Peters

I'm a recovering Post-Mil guy. Amil now.


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## Anselm

Wannabee said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken to reading my Bible with newspaper in hand. Wait, I don't get a newspaper. I have no hope of being able to tell what is happening. I have no chance of properly interpreting Scripture.
> 
> Man, I'm glad I was never a dispensationalist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not one to stereotype, eh?
> 
> 
> Premil and pantrib who sees a future for ethnic Israel and subscribes to Tabletalk, but no newspapers. So much for stereotypes...
Click to expand...

Pan-trib... does that mean believers are raptured throughout the tribulation? I've not heard the term pan-trib before.


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## Rich Koster

Reformed Thomist said:


> I voted for Barac...er, Nicolae Carpathia.


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## Damon Rambo

Repre5entYHWH said:


> hmm, i guess i can't harmonize total depravity and 1,000 years of okey dokieness together...




There is no Total Depravity (in the Millennium). We have been "Changed" in the twinkling of an eye...

Historic Pre-Mill. I am just too much of a literalist to take a a-mill position, and since Jesus said things would get worse, I cannot take a post mill position. However, the pre-trib rapture is a work of fantasy.

So I take the safe bet, and side with the majority of the Church for the last 2,000 years...


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## diverumve

nicnap said:


> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> why so many postmills? ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't resist this one...because, here, on the Puritanboard, so many of us read our Bibles.
Click to expand...


I believe the Postmillennial view to be correct because it gives a proper view of the relationship of the millennium and current society. Both calvin and Knox had Bible based societies in their day after the Reformation had taken place. and even though a lot of society has fallen away I believe this is because the church is coming under discipline for not preaching the gospel and running after lies. I believe God will bring revival through the preaching of the Gospel by the remnant. all we need to do is get away from the scandalous, unrepentant individuals and let God's judgment come upon them in our society. that means taking our children out of the government school system (if we have them in there), applying God's Law to our families first then to the church, then to society through God's Justice department (AKA the civil magistrate), teaching every area of life according to the Scriptures (that includes creation, the fall, ecclesiology etc...), and continuing to take dominion over the earth. http://www.puritanboard.com/images/smilies/detective.gif

-----Added 5/27/2009 at 12:43:43 EST-----



Damon Rambo said:


> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, i guess i can't harmonize total depravity and 1,000 years of okey dokieness together...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no Total Depravity (in the Millennium). We have been "Changed" in the twinkling of an eye...
> 
> Historic Pre-Mill. I am just too much of a literalist to take a a-mill position, and since Jesus said things would get worse, I cannot take a post mill position. However, the pre-trib rapture is a work of fantasy.
> 
> So I take the safe bet, and side with the majority of the Church for the last 2,000 years...
Click to expand...


brother I used to hold a premil position, but now I am a partial preterist postmillennialist because the "bad times" would be right before and during the tribulation. the tribulation as spoken of in daniel 9 was the end of the Old covenant ceremonial age and judgment on the jews for apostasy. after ward the world was getting better suggesting optimistic view. the church has always had its blunders but the world isn't getting worse its getting better but that may be just slowing down for a time until the church repents and continues its mission. if they want a solution to this apostasy of the culture just follow the general equity of the case Laws of the old testament and that problem would be solved.


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## William Price

Partial preterist/Amill here.

-----Added 6/26/2009 at 07:04:32 EST-----



DMcFadden said:


> You guys are ALL too late! Rayford Steele told me that you've been left behind!



That's where I left those!


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## Jake

I've been taught PreTrib PreMil growing up, but I'm leaning toward Postmil. However, I don't have a good understanding yet.


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## timmopussycat

Amil
Who is Nicolaie Carpathia?


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## William Price

timmopussycat said:


> Amil
> Who is Nicolaie Carpathia?



The fictional antichrist in the Left Behind series of fiction novels.


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## caoclan

Amil partial preterist.


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## The Mexican Puritan

Who can say? No one knows for sure. Just be ready for His return.


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## Grimmson

Damon Rambo said:


> So I take the safe bet, and side with the majority of the Church for the last 2,000 years...



I'm his. pre-mil as well, but the majority view of the church I think my be al-mil. Correct me please if am wrong.


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## steven-nemes

I figure this would be a good time to advertise my attempt at opening a blog: click here

I invite pre-mills to consider one objection and give a response to the "problem of evil" which I have written about above, which I find to be destructive to any conceptions of a premillennial return of Christ.


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## caoclan

Joshua said:


> I'm tellin' ya folks, everyone's current eschatological position is somewhere before the end.



Not true for the hyper-preterist!


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## Damon Rambo

diverumve said:


> nicnap said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> why so many postmills? ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't resist this one...because, here, on the Puritanboard, so many of us read our Bibles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe the Postmillennial view to be correct because it gives a proper view of the relationship of the millennium and current society. Both calvin and Knox had Bible based societies in their day after the Reformation had taken place. and even though a lot of society has fallen away I believe this is because the church is coming under discipline for not preaching the gospel and running after lies. I believe God will bring revival through the preaching of the Gospel by the remnant. all we need to do is get away from the scandalous, unrepentant individuals and let God's judgment come upon them in our society. that means taking our children out of the government school system (if we have them in there), applying God's Law to our families first then to the church, then to society through God's Justice department (AKA the civil magistrate), teaching every area of life according to the Scriptures (that includes creation, the fall, ecclesiology etc...), and continuing to take dominion over the earth. http://www.puritanboard.com/images/smilies/detective.gif
> 
> -----Added 5/27/2009 at 12:43:43 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repre5entYHWH said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, i guess i can't harmonize total depravity and 1,000 years of okey dokieness together...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is no Total Depravity (in the Millennium). We have been "Changed" in the twinkling of an eye...
> 
> Historic Pre-Mill. I am just too much of a literalist to take a a-mill position, and since Jesus said things would get worse, I cannot take a post mill position. However, the pre-trib rapture is a work of fantasy.
> 
> So I take the safe bet, and side with the majority of the Church for the last 2,000 years...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> brother I used to hold a premil position, but now I am a partial preterist postmillennialist because the "bad times" would be right before and during the tribulation. the tribulation as spoken of in daniel 9 was the end of the Old covenant ceremonial age and judgment on the jews for apostasy. after ward the world was getting better suggesting optimistic view. the church has always had its blunders but the world isn't getting worse its getting better but that may be just slowing down for a time until the church repents and continues its mission. if they want a solution to this apostasy of the culture just follow the general equity of the case Laws of the old testament and that problem would be solved.
Click to expand...


Getting better? What Earth are you living on, brother? More than half the people ever martyred for the Christian faith, have been killed just in the last two hundred years. 

Things have gotten a LOT worse. There are dictators in the last two hundred years, that have killed FAR more Christians than Nero or Domitian or any of the other supposed "anti-christs".

-----Added 6/27/2009 at 04:39:39 EST-----



Grimmson said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I take the safe bet, and side with the majority of the Church for the last 2,000 years...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm his. pre-mil as well, but the majority view of the church I think my be al-mil. Correct me please if am wrong.
Click to expand...


You are wrong. Why do you think they call it "Historic" premillennialism? The early Church fathers were premillennial, post tribulationists (Christ will come after the great tribulation, to set up the literal 1000 year reign).

Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Polycarp, and Papias, are all people who explicitly held these views (Polycarp, from the writings of Ireneaus). This view dominated the first 350 years of Christianity.

Augustine was the first to come up with Amillennialism (or more properly, arrange and express the view of Tyconius). In 430, the premillennial position was banned: by this time, though, Christianity was already beginning to be in bondage to the papacy. So, in my opinion, the next 1000 years of Christianity does not count, at least the "official" church, anyway.

Anyway, regardless of how you see it, historic premillennialism was the original, and oldest view.


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## Grimmson

Damon Rambo said:


> Augustine was the first to come up with Amillennialism (or more properly, arrange and express the view of Tyconius). In 430, the premillennial position was banned: by this time, though, Christianity was already beginning to be in bondage to the papacy. So, in my opinion, the next 1000 years of Christianity does not count, at least the "official" church, anyway.
> 
> Anyway, regardless of how you see it, historic premillennialism was the original, and oldest view.
> 
> 
> 
> There were christians during the last 1000 years of the church, so I think it should count. Clement of Alexandria and Origen denied the historic premillennialism position I think and if memory serves there were different variants of the premillennialism position by the church fathers. The rise of the historic premillennialism and popularity as we see it today was a response against the dispensationalism of the late 19 century, even though we can find baptists like John Gil in support of it much earlier. So we must consider the majority view of reformation was Amillennialism historically, from Luther and his denomation to Calvin when making our claim.
> 
> I am not saying I disagree with your position on being historical premillennialists, but I do not think we call our position historically the majority view and at the same time look at the church fathers in complete agreement on the issue at hand.
Click to expand...


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## he beholds

shackleton said:


> I would have to say that I am sort of a partial-preterist/Amil. I believe most of the prophecy in the NT pertained to the first century audience and Revelation was probably written prior to the destruction of the Temple. I also believe that all of the "Lion with lamb" verses pertain to the time when creation has been restored back to its original glory, after the resurrection.



That sounds like what I believe.
I would have voted "a-mil" but what is partial-preterist??? 
I know it is still possible, but the three and a half good years followed by three and a half bad years, then Christ returning and taking the believers but leaving the unbelievers and giving them 1000 years to come to him sounds very science-fictiony to me. (Maybe because it has become so in our culture, so I am not saying that this means it can't be true.)

I also wonder about it taking people 1000 years to come to Christ when God predestines them. It certainly could best glorify him to take 1000 years, but it doesn't make sense in my little head. Perhaps all I know of the position is hearsay of Nostradamus from standing in the grocery store check-out line too long, and I don't really understand the position.


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## Damon Rambo

Grimmson said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Augustine was the first to come up with Amillennialism (or more properly, arrange and express the view of Tyconius). In 430, the premillennial position was banned: by this time, though, Christianity was already beginning to be in bondage to the papacy. So, in my opinion, the next 1000 years of Christianity does not count, at least the "official" church, anyway.
> 
> Anyway, regardless of how you see it, historic premillennialism was the original, and oldest view.
> 
> 
> 
> There were christians during the last 1000 years of the church, so I think it should count.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Roman Catholic Papists were the ones doing the writing. So what position the "Christians" held, is up for debate.
Click to expand...


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## christianhope

Historic Postmill here thanks to Patrick Fairbairn's "The interpretation of prophecy"


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## Grimmson

Damon Rambo said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Augustine was the first to come up with Amillennialism (or more properly, arrange and express the view of Tyconius). In 430, the premillennial position was banned: by this time, though, Christianity was already beginning to be in bondage to the papacy. So, in my opinion, the next 1000 years of Christianity does not count, at least the "official" church, anyway.
> 
> Anyway, regardless of how you see it, historic premillennialism was the original, and oldest view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Roman Catholic Papists were the ones doing the writing. So what position the "Christians" held, is up for debate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You cannot blame Rome on this one, and I am most assurely anti-romanist. Amillennialism is the dominat view taken not just by the West(Rome), but also the East with the Eastern Orthodox churches( regardless if their Greek, Russian, Syrian, Armenian, and I think also Coptic even though their not techically a part the Eastern Orthodox Churches).
> 
> In fact this view of church history, if you were to be consistent negelecting the next 1000 years of the church and their theology as whole, would lead you to hold a Alexandrian text- type codex or proto version there of versuses the Byzantine text type. Thus affecting the TR and to some degree The NA27. I am just showing how your view of church history also affects are theology and transmission of the Bible that we have today. Therefore let us not be blaming Rome for the Amillennialism posistion and instead bring up our evidence biblically for the case there of for historic premillennialism. We must be careful how we use history becaue the premillennialism of our church fathers did vary, so we cannot just go back and claim a standard universal position; assuming we want to be true to the truth that we proclaim.
Click to expand...


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## Romans 8 Verse 28

Blue Tick said:


> What's your eschatological position?



Historic Amillennial.


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## Grimmson

he beholds said:


> That sounds like what I believe.
> I would have voted "a-mil" but what is partial-preterist???
> I know it is still possible, but the three and a half good years followed by three and a half bad years, then Christ returning and taking the believers but leaving the unbelievers and giving them 1000 years to come to him sounds very science-fictiony to me. (Maybe because it has become so in our culture, so I am not saying that this means it can't be true.)



This response is for Jessi, a.k.a. He Beholds, and for anyone else with a similar question. I define partial preterism as an eschatological view that looks at most of the prophesy in the New Testament and some of the Old as being fulfilled by the fall of the Second Temple. The main difference with full preterism on this point however is in regards to the future coming of Christ, which full preterists claim has already been fulfilled along with his final judgment that is ongoing after the fall of Jerusalem. It is for this reason we can still look at the partial position as being orthodox; however I want to add that that I have ran across some who claim to be partial and holds to a two Second Comings of Christ, which makes me scratch my head. The first being at 70AD, and not during the delivery of the Apocalypse of John(Revelations). The second being at another future coming. R.C. Sproul is a partial preterists, but I do not know his view regarding this partial variation. 

If you want to read why I do not think Revelations was written prior to 70 AD, please look at my postings on the link below:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/when-revelation-written-49760/

Now I think there some confusion on the Millennium or the 1000 years, which makes sense because of the three main varying views here. I myself as I have already indicated am a historical pre-mil. Preterists typically fall under the Amillennial or postmillennial view. I personally do not know where to put the full perterist camp but to the amillennial view because of the present reign of Christ based on the definition given earlier; however their denial of a physical resurrection or transformation of the body after death would place some strain on most who hold to a Amillennialists position. 



he beholds said:


> I also wonder about it taking people 1000 years to come to Christ when God predestines them. It certainly could best glorify him to take 1000 years, but it doesn't make sense in my little head. Perhaps all I know of the position is hearsay of Nostradamus from standing in the grocery store check-out line too long, and I don't really understand the position.



Your right , that does sound fishy, you must recognize that it is only the premillennium view that looks at the 1000 year reign as literal and not the others. 2 Peter 2:9, a very common passage to take out of context, suggests why Christ has not come yet and that is so none of his people, none of us, will perish.God timing is God timing, he has ordained the ends and the means, if it takes 1000 years then so be it. But let us now move to defining Historical premillennialism with the dispensational which I am sure you are familiar with. First concerning the rapture, His. Pre-mils hold to a post-trib categorically; unlike those of a dispensational perspective which vary as seen in their main difference of course between the Christian and Israel distinctions or categories that are made of the positions. Both sides hold to a rapture, but in the His. case it preceeds and is followed up by Christ's 1000 year reign and those within the rapture are not just the living saints, but also the dead who will reign with him. At this stage there is a mingling of sorts with the present and eternal stage or era. Also there will be a literal gathering in the millennial kingdom until the final rebellion and defeat of Satan. 

Hopefully, this has answered your questioned. Continue to ask on this blog or email me if you want more details on these questions.


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## he beholds

I do have one quick (probably dumb) question...Are people alive for 1000 years each (never dying in that time) or is history re-started for another 1000 years? From my very limited understanding, I've assumed that each person lives for 1000 years.

Also, is Christ living on earth with the unbelievers (whilst the rapture has taken the saints)? What does he do for those 1000 years, and what do the unbelievers do? Live with jobs and families, etc? Or try to fight Christ with Satan? Sorry for the great ignorance.


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## BoldBeliever

My position is not mentioned. I'm a Last Day Adventist. Jesus will come on the Last Day, whenever that day is. (OK, technically, I'm post-millennial and post-Gog and Magog, but that won't fit, LOL.


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## Southern Twang

Partial-preterist, postmillennial


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## Bald_Brother

Historic Amil, with some post-mil leanings.


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## Mayflower

Just changed from historic-postmillennial to Partial-preterist, postmillennial !


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## Southern Twang

Mayflower said:


> Just changed from historic-postmillennial to Partial-preterist, postmillennial !



Amen! What a blessing!

What made you change?


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## PilgrimPastor

I see a distinction in the Scriptures between Israel and the Church, but I think I am moving very much closer to the historic pre-millennial view.


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## Mayflower

Southern Twang said:


> Mayflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just changed from historic-postmillennial to Partial-preterist, postmillennial !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! What a blessing!
> 
> What made you change?
Click to expand...


Through Kenneth Gentry and his hermeneutics on eschatology, Revelation, Matthew 24 ..etc.


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## tman

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> tentatively a partial-preterist amil



I like your answer


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## Sonoftheday

I have an assumption that Amillenialism is the goto posistion for those of that were raised Dispensational premills. Most people I talk to who come out of dispensationalism go amillennial for a while and then are either confirmed in thier Amillenialism or thier further studys lead them to historic premil or postmillenial. Just something Ive noticed.


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## busdriver72

Are there any panmillennist......it's all gonna "pan" out?


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## Honor

I have no idea if there is a term for what I believe... I believe that there will be signs and things are going to get really really bad for the saints.... we will be "conquered" by satan and when there are very few of us left then the rapture will happen and we will be caught up with Him in the sky.... after which all the bowls of wrath and bad stuff will happen and people will want to die but can't and then they will form an army and try to fight against Jesus and the the saint, lose then will come the judgment. take that what you will but I don't have any clue what that's called.


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## Radical_Pilgrim

Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;

I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end. 

Who's with me? Lol..


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## JonathanHunt

Radical_Pilgrim said:


> Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;
> 
> I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end.
> 
> Who's with me? Lol..



You get a big fat Amen from me. Fed up with millennial differences causing trouble in the church.


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## Southern Twang

JonathanHunt said:


> Radical_Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;
> 
> I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end.
> 
> Who's with me? Lol..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You get a big fat Amen from me. Fed up with millennial differences causing trouble in the church.
Click to expand...


Hate to tell y'all, but eschatology is as important as any other Christian doctrine.


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## JonathanHunt

Southern Twang said:


> JonathanHunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Radical_Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;
> 
> I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end.
> 
> Who's with me? Lol..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You get a big fat Amen from me. Fed up with millennial differences causing trouble in the church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hate to tell y'all, but eschatology is as important as any other Christian doctrine.
Click to expand...


So there are no secondary issues then?


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## Southern Twang

JonathanHunt said:


> Southern Twang said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JonathanHunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You get a big fat Amen from me. Fed up with millennial differences causing trouble in the church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to tell y'all, but eschatology is as important as any other Christian doctrine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So there are no secondary issues then?
Click to expand...


My point is that Biblical doctrines are one cohesive unit. To neglect one aspect of this unit, will negatively impact other parts of the unit.

People often appeal to "pan-millennialism" not because prophecy is hard to understand, but that they do not want to put in the time and energy to understand God's plan for history and that which is to come.

Yes there are secondary issues, but I believe eschatology is not one of them. One's view of the future affects how they work in the present. Eschatology is important!


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## Radical_Pilgrim

I agree with you eschatology is important. However I think it is a secondary issue. Jesus just said be ready. I'll let you more theological saints worry about this stuff, I'm going to keep focused on trying to fulfill our Lord's commission. Much more important then if we are gonna be beamed up before or after the Trib.. Just my 2cents..


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## busdriver72

> People often appeal to "pan-millennialism" not because prophecy is hard to understand, but that they do not want to put in the time and energy to understand God's plan for history and that which is to come.



Whoa...easy there Southern Twang!
Some people may do it for that reason, but if they're that lazy and shallow I doubt they would take the time and energy to join and post on this board.
You're making a blanket judgment on folks you do not know. It's not that any of us are above judgment, but we would appreciate that when you judge you judge with righteous judgment based on clear evidence.
I find God's plan for history and the future fascinating. That is why I took our congregation through the entire books of Daniel and Revelation...verse by verse...chapter by chapter...over a period of two years. I take it very seriously, yet I am very practical with it. Whether or not I have all the prophetic events in the exact right order
1) Isn't going to affect the order of events as the Lord wants them
2) Isn't going to affect the primary need for people to be saved by grace through faith in Christ
Out of all the things we don't know, let us focus on what we DO know...
1CO 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.


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## Blue Tick

> My point is that Biblical doctrines are one cohesive unit. To neglect one aspect of this unit, will negatively impact other parts of the unit.
> 
> People often appeal to "pan-millennialism" not because prophecy is hard to understand, but that they do not want to put in the time and energy to understand God's plan for history and that which is to come.
> 
> Yes there are secondary issues, but I believe eschatology is not one of them. One's view of the future affects how they work in the present. Eschatology is important!



Dewey does have a point here: One's eschatological position does affect how one lives out their faith and the faith of preserving future generations. For instance, typically, not all, folks who hold to a Pretrib and Premill view tend to be more pessimistic about engaing society and looking forward to preserving the faith. I'm not saying all but in my experience and in my circles this has been the case. Now, take someone who is Postmill they have a optimistic view of the Church. There's more optimism about the power of the gospel to transform society.

I think what Dewey is saying is it takes alot of time and energy to consider all eschatological positions. Just studying one and then coming to the conclusion that it's right or it will pan out is neglecting the effort needed to make a valid conclusion.


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## busdriver72

> folks who hold to a Pretrib and Premill view tend to be more pessimistic about engaing society and looking forward to preserving the faith


Really? I am pretrib and premill. Please describe my tendency to be pessimistic about engaging society and looking forward to preserving the faith?


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## Blue Tick

busdriver72 said:


> folks who hold to a Pretrib and Premill view tend to be more pessimistic about engaing society and looking forward to preserving the faith
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I am pretrib and premill. Please describe my tendency to be pessimistic about engaging society and looking forward to preserving the faith?
Click to expand...


Pastor Ralph I didn't say you. I said in my circles *and in my experience* this was the case.


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## Southern Twang

busdriver72 said:


> folks who hold to a Pretrib and Premill view tend to be more pessimistic about engaing society and looking forward to preserving the faith
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I am pretrib and premill. Please describe my tendency to be pessimistic about engaging society and looking forward to preserving the faith?
Click to expand...


Ralph,

You might be optimistic, engage society, and are willing to preserve the faith, BUT, you are inconsistent with your eschatology to which I praise God.


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## busdriver72

> Pastor Ralph I didn't say you. I said in my circles and in my experience this was the case.



I didn't take it personally. I know you didn't mean me, but you did say "typically." That is stereotyping of sorts, but I need this stereotype "fleshed out."
What did you mean?

-----Added 8/25/2009 at 01:07:24 EST-----



> BUT, you are inconsistent with your eschatology to which I praise God.



How's that?


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## Osage Bluestem

I am amillennial


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## buggy

I confess that I don't hold onto any other position other than a "personal, imminent, (time) unexpected return of Christ." I'm not so sure on the specifics, whether premil, a-mil and so on.


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## historyb

Sonoftheday said:


> I have an assumption that Amillenialism is the goto posistion for those of that were raised Dispensational premills. Most people I talk to who come out of dispensationalism go amillennial for a while and then are either confirmed in thier Amillenialism or thier further studys lead them to historic premil or postmillenial. Just something Ive noticed.


That's how it is with me, though I find that the ghost of dispensationalism never completely leaves me especially the times like the election and now with the healthcare stuff. I'm getting better though


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## ericknowsChrist

Joshua said:


> My current eschatalogical position is somewhere before the end.





Radical_Pilgrim said:


> Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;
> 
> I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end.
> 
> Who's with me? Lol..



Both of your responses are excellent! I am in many ways a "Pan-Mil" as defined by Radical Pilgrim - God IS sovereign and it will all work out!! 

I consider myself a _partial-preterist, post-tribulational premilinialist_. 

_Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near._ - Rev 1:3


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## GoYouBlues

Partial preterist, Post mil.

Not that I was in need of convincing, but it was great to have Kenneth Gentry visit us in Australia as the keynote speaker of the Daniel 2:44 conference two weeks ago. Daniel 2:44 conferences are held annually in Canberra, Australia and around 100-150 (mainly post millers) attend.


Gentry presented eight lectures on the Book of Revelation and ably answered many good questions. He preached the Sunday sermon on the topic of, you guessed it, "The Greatness of the Great Commission." What a gracious man is Kenneth Gentry and what a delight it was to spend three days under his teaching.


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## Christusregnat

The Confession allows for Postmil and Amil positions (at least the sort that sees all nations converting to Christ, followed by the conversion of the Jews).

In fact, I was just reading Thomas Vincent's comments on the shorter catechism, and he located the conversion of all nations and of the Jews within Q4 on "What is God", and the infinitude of God's power.

Cheers,


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## tonyhipps

Sonoftheday said:


> I have an assumption that Amillenialism is the goto posistion for those of that were raised Dispensational premills. Most people I talk to who come out of dispensationalism go amillennial for a while and then are either confirmed in thier Amillenialism or thier further studys lead them to historic premil or postmillenial. Just something Ive noticed.



That's an interesting observation. I used to be Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil, Dispensational until about a year ago when I changed to Amil. I wouldn't call it a go-to position for me. I just read some really great books on eschatology and crossed referenced it with my Bible. 

Just seems to make more sense to me. In my humble opinion


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## Manuel

I used to be a historic-premillenialist but then I found many inconsistencies in that system with the teachings of the Bible and switched to the amillennial position.


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