# Jazz Jamming in the Christian



## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 22, 2016)

In a discussion I had with a Christian brother, they concluded that Jazz was a great musical venue to listen to "because it's neutral."

He said "Musical notes are not sinful."

He hates Christian music and defaults to Jazz.

What are your thoughts?


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## Afterthought (Feb 22, 2016)

I would think that musical notes are not in themselves sinful, but they are arranged by a creature that is rational and morally responsible, and so there is some basis for moral evaluation? Kind of like how sounds are not in themselves sinful, but certain sounds combined into words and a language can be sinful (e.g., blaspheming God)?

I remember seeing this, which more specifically looks at rap and rock music, If I recall correctly: http://www.puritans.net/articles/discerningmusic.htm


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## MW (Feb 22, 2016)

Doesn't something that is "neutral" assume a form of indifference to God, and isn't that sinful?


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## Philip (Feb 22, 2016)

No I wouldn't say that Jazz is neutral. Jazz is good and worthy of being enjoyed.

And well-played jazz is certainly preferable to a lot of so-called "Christian rock." Though there are obvious exceptions.


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## Peairtach (Feb 22, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> In a discussion I had with a Christian brother, they concluded that Jazz was a great musical venue to listen to "because it's neutral."
> 
> He said "Musical notes are not sinful."
> 
> ...



Hans Rookmaaker wrote on jazz. See also Schaeffer's little book on art. As Christians we listen to and interpret music as new creatures.

How "neutral" music is as opposed to other forms of communication, like painting, or literature, is a Q. 

Sometimes some pieces of music seem to be saying little more than "enjoy me, if you like me" as part of the creation, just as we might enjoy birdsong, and to listen to them is an innocent pursuit if not given excessive heart and time.

Some jazz may have a sensual flavour, particularly singing, but that may largely go over the heads of some listeners, including some Christians, and what they get out of it.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Edward (Feb 22, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> He hates Christian music



Does he hate it because it is bad music (and a lot of 'Christian' music is) or does he hate it because it is Christian?


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## ZackF (Feb 22, 2016)

Philip said:


> No I wouldn't say that Jazz is neutral. Jazz is good and worthy of being enjoyed.
> 
> And well-played jazz is certainly preferable to a lot of so-called "Christian rock." Though there are obvious exceptions.



I hear you brother. Got started on Jazz from Groothius' blog and haven't looked back since. Love it!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 22, 2016)

He says he likes Jazz because it's neutral, i.e. there are no lyrics. He doesn't like Christian music. I'm more interested in thoughts about music being neutral. 

He says he would rather listen to Metallica than listen to Christian music (Jesus is my girlfriend music). So he opted for prudence with music that is "neutral".


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## timfost (Feb 22, 2016)

I see what he means about it being neutral. In this sense, classical music is neutral. In this sense, pop music in a language I don't understand is neutral. 

There can be a real benefit to music of these categories, but it's not difficult to make an idol out of anything. One is not immune from sin by listening to something "neutral." 

Personally, I dislike most Christian music. Much of secular music has more to offer musically, though the trade-off is not worth it because of the immorality it tends to promote.

We should all try Rachmaninoff as a good alternative.


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## TylerRay (Feb 22, 2016)

Not that I necessarily agree with these quotes, but they are pertinent:



> The background of Negro culture is African and magic, and the purposes of magic are control and power over God, man, nature, and society. Voodoo or magic was the religion and life of American Negroes. Voodoo songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive. --R. J. Rushdoony, _Institutes of Biblical Law,_ 60-61.





> First of all, it has been my experience more than once that, when I preach the pure truth of sovereign grace, the gospel that salvation is of the Lord and in no sense of man, there are those who, as the children on the market place of which our Lord speaks, will pipe this hymn to me [i. e., _Whosoever Will May Come_], evidently convinced that the words of it contradict and overthrow the doctrine that God sovereignly saves whomsoever He wills, and the will of man does not at all cooperate in his own salvation; and evidently intending that to the tune of their piping I shall perform an Arminian dance. *And seeing that I hate all Arminian jazz music, that proudly extols the free will of the sinner, and could not possibly dance to the tune of it*; considering, moreover, that it is my sincere desire to warn believers against the danger of the error that would attribute salvation to the choice of the sinner's will, and to instruct them in the truth of salvation by the sovereign grace of God, I feel that it might be beneficial and instructive to take the theme of the hymn and expound it in the light of Scripture. - Herman Hoeksema, _Whosoever Will_, 11-12


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## py3ak (Feb 22, 2016)

The question of music was discussed in 2009. I'm a little surprised at how feisty I used to be, and these days I would probably reference Gaelle Arquez rather than Rolando Villazón as an irrefutable instance of ability to sing, but it might still be profitable.


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## bookslover (Feb 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Not that I necessarily agree with these quotes, but they are pertinent:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are not pertinent. Neither Rushdoony nor Hoeksema knows what he's talking about when it comes to jazz. These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise.

Jazz is creative. The musician interacts improvisationally with the melody, the harmony, or the chords of a particular song, exploring those structures in order to create new music based on them, and does so more or less on the spur of the moment. Jazz is not descended from voodoo, but rather has Negro spirituals as part of its original basis. And I laughed when I read "Arminian jazz music." I'd be willing to bet that Hoeksema couldn't tell an Arminian jazz musician from a Reformed one. What a joke.

Jazz musicians - just like any other creative artist - honor and glorify God (even if he or she is not a Christian) because they are using the creative talent God gives them.


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## Peairtach (Feb 23, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> He says he likes Jazz because it's neutral, i.e. there are no lyrics. He doesn't like Christian music. I'm more interested in thoughts about music being neutral.
> 
> He says he would rather listen to Metallica than listen to Christian music (Jesus is my girlfriend music). So he opted for prudence with music that is "neutral".



It often has no lyrics. But you can get jazz singers and crooners like Sinatra.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Feb 23, 2016)

> And seeing that I hate all Arminian jazz music, that proudly extols the free will of the sinner, and could not possibly dance to the tune of it ..- Herman Hoeksema, Whosoever Will, 11-12



So, would Herman have danced to Calvinistic Jazz?


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## Cymro (Feb 23, 2016)

Only if he was predestined too,Daniel!


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## timfost (Feb 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Not that I necessarily agree with these quotes, but they are pertinent:
> 
> 
> 
> > The background of Negro culture is African and magic, and the purposes of magic are control and power over God, man, nature, and society. Voodoo or magic was the religion and life of American Negroes. Voodoo songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive. --R. J. Rushdoony, _Institutes of Biblical Law,_ 60-61.



I find this incredibly distasteful, if not racist. To attribute African magic to Jazz because it was created by people of African decent is utterly outrageous. What about Spirituals? Is Wager off limits because he was anti-Semitic, thus making his music inherently anti-Semitic? Is Scriabin's music off limits because of his mysticism? What about twelve-bar blues? The use of _IV_ (subdominant) to _I_ (tonic) in the final cadence of twelve-bar blues was rebellion against Western music's _V_ (dominant) to _I_ final cadence (authentic cadence). And yet a IV to I (plagal cadence) is identical to the "Amen" cadence of hymns. How about ragtime? The term "ragtime" was first used by Ernest Hogan, popularized in his racially charged song titled "All Coons Look Alike To Me." Ragtime was popularized, in part, because such racialy charged music was appealing to white culture. Am I racist if I listen to Joplin's _The Entertainer_ or _Maple Leaf Rag_?

I hope I've illustrated how problematic such reasoning quickly becomes. We could spend all of our time digging up historical dirt to bind people's consciences in regards to various styles of music, and after throwing out all music, we read Romans 14.


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## Bill The Baptist (Feb 23, 2016)

bookslover said:


> These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise



I think we are all guilty of this from time to time. I recall C.S. Lewis remarking about how incredibly incompetent Freud was when he spoke on areas outside his expertise. Sadly, Freud was a great deal more influential than most of us will ever be.


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## Philip (Feb 23, 2016)

> Voodoo songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive. --R. J. Rushdoony, Institutes of Biblical Law, 60-61.



Ah yes, this is clearly a voodoo message here. Or would Rushdoony say that Mr. Taylor and Mr. Alexander are engaging in syncretism?


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## earl40 (Feb 23, 2016)

What would be the difference between Christian music, and music that is sung by a Christian? I believe how one answers such may show one that there is a difference between sacred music and secular music. I use the word secular to say music that is not sacred is simply secular which in of it self is not bad.

To attach any music form to Christianity be it jazz, rock, or whatever In my most humble opinion is silly because many hate jazz or rock and thus one runs the risk of bringing aspersion upon Christ.


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## TylerRay (Feb 23, 2016)

timfost said:


> TylerRay said:
> 
> 
> > Not that I necessarily agree with these quotes, but they are pertinent:
> ...



Tim, the statement is not racist. He's talking about the culture and religion of the blacks by whom Jazz was developed, not their genetics.

Actually, I would not be surprised to learn that Rushdoony rejected Wagner, Scriabin, or anyone associated with the Romantic movement, as it was a vehicle for the overthrow of Christian morality. He would trace 12 bar blues and ragtime to the same root as Jazz, I would imagine.

I don't fully agree with Rushdoony on these issues (I'm still working through some of these things myself--I love the music of the Grateful Dead, but I want to guard myself and my family from identifying with deadhead or hippie culture, and I haven't fully worked that out yet), but I do want to be fair to Rushdoony.


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## bookslover (Feb 23, 2016)

Bill The Baptist said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise
> ...



Turns out Lewis was right. Most, if not all, of Freud's major theories have been debunked as telling more about him than about anyone else.


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## TylerRay (Feb 23, 2016)

bookslover said:


> They are not pertinent. Neither Rushdoony nor Hoeksema knows what he's talking about when it comes to jazz. These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise.
> 
> Jazz is creative. The musician interacts improvisationally with the melody, the harmony, or the chords of a particular song, exploring those structures in order to create new music based on them, and does so more or less on the spur of the moment. Jazz is not descended from voodoo, but rather has Negro spirituals as part of its original basis. And I laughed when I read "Arminian jazz music." I'd be willing to bet that Hoeksema couldn't tell an Arminian jazz musician from a Reformed one. What a joke.
> 
> Jazz musicians - just like any other creative artist - honor and glorify God (even if he or she is not a Christian) because they are using the creative talent God gives them.



Mirriam-Webster defines pertinent in this way: "relating to the thing that is being thought about or discussed." I think the quotes qualify.

Like it or not, I think it's pretty standard that a lot of the roots of jazz lie in traditional African music which carried religious import. No one denies there are other influences. Furthermore, Jazz arose in New Orleans, the hotbed of American voodoo. And it's pretty unlikely that many New Orleans blacks were singing Negro spirituals. The Roman Catholicism of the are wouldn't have facilitated the development of such songs.


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## TylerRay (Feb 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > They are not pertinent. Neither Rushdoony nor Hoeksema knows what he's talking about when it comes to jazz. These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise.
> ...



Note: I'm not endorsing the statements of either Rushdoony or Hoeksema, but I don't think that Rushdoony is too far off on the origins of jazz. My main reason for posting them was to show that there have been some formidable Reformed thinkers who have maintained that jazz is a distinctly unchristian genre of music.


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## timfost (Feb 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Like it or not, I think it's pretty standard that a lot of the roots of jazz lie in traditional African music which carried religious import. No one denies there are other influences. Furthermore, Jazz arose in New Orleans, the hotbed of American voodoo. And it's pretty unlikely that many New Orleans blacks were singing Negro spirituals. The Roman Catholicism of the are wouldn't have facilitated the development of such songs.



Likewise, the root of all western music, including Bach, was developed in the medieval Catholic church. If your confession is correct (25.6), could we argue that the root of western music as a whole is that of Antichrist?

Regardless of the sinful influences surrounding the development of a particular musical genre, we should be clear that the sin is not in the thing itself but the heart. 

PS. Originally the term "rock 'n' roll" was a euphemism for sexual intercourse.


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## Philip (Feb 24, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Like it or not, I think it's pretty standard that a lot of the roots of jazz lie in traditional African music which carried religious import.



And the Negro Spiritual has its roots there too. Rushdoony's reasoning is based on the genetic fallacy that because a musical practice's ultimate origin is in a particular religious practice, any subsequent development must also be tainted. That's just blatantly fallacious.



TylerRay said:


> And it's pretty unlikely that many New Orleans blacks were singing Negro spirituals.



Actually, it's very likely that they were. New Orleans is a crossroads of the south and it was the exchange of cultures there that produced jazz.

Years ago I attended a concert by one of the premier traditional New Orleans Jazz bands still performing in the city and around fifty percent of the tunes played were Gospel or Jazz renditions of hymns.



TylerRay said:


> Tim, the statement is not racist. He's talking about the culture and religion of the blacks by whom Jazz was developed, not their genetics.



Technically the term here would be cultural snobbery.


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## timmopussycat (Feb 24, 2016)

bookslover said:


> They are not pertinent. Neither Rushdoony nor Hoeksema knows what he's talking about when it comes to jazz. These are the kinds of statements one makes when one steps out of one's area of expertise.



Agreed that R & H were our of their expertise, but music used to be my field and the effects of instrumental music on listeners was an interest. One key premise that has not been discussed is the usual effects of certain genres of music on human mood and whether those effects are desirable. That certain genres usually have certain effects is clear - the music therapy profession is built on this premise and, (to give an obvious example), the regimental marches of military band music will have certain characteristics in common and pieces written in that genre are written to produce certain effects in the mood of the hearers. 

And yes, one must be careful applying this insight to "jazz." Although jazz may be said to have some commonalities that make it jazz, jazz is big enough that it is not monolithic. Early Louis Armstrong has significant differences from Ornette Coleman.



bookslover said:


> Jazz musicians - just like any other creative artist - honor and glorify God (even if he or she is not a Christian) because they are using the creative talent God gives them.



The mere use one's God given creative talent, may not in itself glorify God. One may use one's talents to give glory to something else.


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## ZackF (Feb 26, 2016)

Interesting thoughts on this thread. 
To directly address the OP, nothing is neutral. God gives talents to the elect and non-elect whether they are artists or oncologists. Not even the motives of a believer are pure as to how he invests his talents. 

The genetic fallacy aside, I think a good question could be why didn't Rushdooney take his analysis of Jazz back further. If it's influenced by Voodoo, then what's influenced Voodoo? Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism is also a syncretistic product. One of the components of Roman Catholicism is..... Christianity. Ergo, Jazz has it's roots in Christianity.


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## MW (Feb 26, 2016)

timmopussycat said:


> One key premise that has not been discussed is the usual effects of certain genres of music on human mood and whether those effects are desirable. That certain genres usually have certain effects is clear - the music therapy profession is built on this premise and, (to give an obvious example), the regimental marches of military band music will have certain characteristics in common and pieces written in that genre are written to produce certain effects in the mood of the hearers.



Tim, I hope you have an opportunity to build on this line of thought. Too little attention is given to it. Now that we have numerous organisations using multi-media presentations to convey biblical and theological subjects, I would say it is a very important area of study. What "mood" is being set by the background music? What kind of "resonance" is being created with the intended audience? How sensitive should the Christian message be to these kinds of cultural associations?


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## timmopussycat (Feb 26, 2016)

MW said:


> timmopussycat said:
> 
> 
> > One key premise that has not been discussed is the usual effects of certain genres of music on human mood and whether those effects are desirable. That certain genres usually have certain effects is clear - the music therapy profession is built on this premise and, (to give an obvious example), the regimental marches of military band music will have certain characteristics in common and pieces written in that genre are written to produce certain effects in the mood of the hearers.
> ...



Thank you for your encouragement. You are correct that these matters receive little attention from Christians, but I am probably not the one who could best do the work necessary to transform the thought into a foundation for practical application. It's thirty years since I last seriously addressed these questions. Even then, I was vividly aware that the question is difficult as the interplay between music and human cannot be fully and scientifically described in terms of provable cause and effect. 

But I can start with one point which does turn on something measurable. What happens to the pulse and brain waves when exposed to different musical rhythms? And what are the pulse and brainwave rhythms doing when someone is fully attentive to a speech? Any Music Therapists on the board?


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