# The Earth: The Center of the?



## JWJ (Jun 9, 2004)

Folks,

Reading various threads on creation I have a noticed many stereotype the past church age as either thinking the earth was the center of the universe or the center of the solar system. Only one is correct. In other words it is true as far as &quot;science&quot; and observation goes that the earth is not the center of the solar system. Moreover, the bible never claims implicitly or explicitly this point. 

However, as far as being the earth being the center of the entire universe goes, this remains the question. Science and observation, for obvious reasons, cannot answer this question. The bible appears to be silent on this issue (though some claim one can implicitly deduce the truth of this from scripture) and therefore we should not be so quick to judge in either direction. My personal opinion is that the earth is the center of the universe.

Jim


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## Ianterrell (Jun 9, 2004)

How could the earth be the center of the universe. That would mean everything in the universe was revolving around the earth. Which clearly is not the case.


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## JWJ (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:03e166c968][i:03e166c968]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:03e166c968]
How could the earth be the center of the universe. That would mean everything in the universe was revolving around the earth. Which clearly is not the case. [/quote:03e166c968]

The earth is not the center of the solar system. How do you know that everything needs to revolve around the earth if it is the center of the universe? Moreover, how does any finite being know what or where the center of the universe is? 

Jim


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## JohnV (Jun 9, 2004)

What is the difference between the &quot;observational&quot; centre of the universe, the &quot;perceived' centre of the universe, and the actual centre of the universe?


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## a (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:4bdbb97771][i:4bdbb97771]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:4bdbb97771]
How could the earth be the center of the universe. That would mean everything in the universe was revolving around the earth. Which clearly is not the case. [/quote:4bdbb97771]


i really doubt we are in the center of the universe by any measure, but your conclusion would need more foundation, at least scientifically...

in order for your statement to be &quot;universally&quot; correct (pardon the pun), you would have to first prove the universe is indeed revolving or rotating...


this is perhaps a fun idea to ponder, but i don't think we'll have any way of knowing...

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by ace]


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## Ianterrell (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:3cd149bd89][i:3cd149bd89]Originally posted by JWJ[/i:3cd149bd89]
[quote:3cd149bd89][i:3cd149bd89]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:3cd149bd89]
How could the earth be the center of the universe. That would mean everything in the universe was revolving around the earth. Which clearly is not the case. [/quote:3cd149bd89]

The earth is not the center of the solar system. How do you know that everything needs to revolve around the earth if it is the center of the universe? Moreover, how does any finite being know what or where the center of the universe is? 

Jim [/quote:3cd149bd89]

How can any finite being know where Utah is on a map. How can any finite being know anything? I'm sorry but you are going to have to provide some hardcore refutation of modern astronomy for me to concede on this one. 

Let's reason together. The earth is moving in a regular cycle around the sun. At best you can say that our solar system is maybe near the center of the universe. But to say that this orb is [b:3cd149bd89]the[/b:3cd149bd89] center universe...well the burden of proof is on you. The universe hasn't last time I heard been moving around the earth. If the earth was the center the universe would have to be doing exactly that.


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## JohnV (Jun 10, 2004)

For my part, Ian, I trying to make hay out of the observation that everything is moving away from us, not whether it's going around us. It's kind of hard to stand on, say, Alpha Centauri and observe that everything is going away from the earth, but not from where you are standing. But even at that distance the difference would be too small to draw conclusions. 

Right now, for scientists, the earth is the centre, because it's the same distance in every direction for them. And from their theories, from their vantage point, they draw conclusions about the origin and age of the entire universe. What the actual physical centre is, well who knows that?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 10, 2004)

Does it really matter what the relation is?


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## JWJ (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:0b477d8ff8][i:0b477d8ff8]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:0b477d8ff8]
For my part, Ian, I trying to make hay out of the observation that everything is moving away from us, not whether it's going around us. It's kind of hard to stand on, say, Alpha Centauri and observe that everything is going away from the earth, but not from where you are standing. But even at that distance the difference would be too small to draw conclusions. 

Right now, for scientists, the earth is the centre, because it's the same distance in every direction for them. And from their theories, from their vantage point, they draw conclusions about the origin and age of the entire universe. What the actual physical centre is, well who knows that? [/quote:0b477d8ff8]

JohnV,

You are thinking well!! No scientist knows nor can know the center. No person can know if the universe is expanding or contracting. As a matter of fact, the &quot;science&quot; and theories of cosmology / astronomy is at best always relative and always changing as they always depend on changing frame of references and presuppositions.


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## New wine skin (Jun 10, 2004)

Assuming there is a center, that could imply a bounded universe (so I am told physics and math suggest). The bounded/unbounded issue makes expanding contracting theories difficult because laws such as gravity,behavior of light and friction would be affected and sensitive to any cosmological model. If the universe is not bounded and evolved as the bigbang model suggest good luck explaining why the average temp in space is nearly uniform and galaxies spin in different directions. Since gravity causes the solar system and galaxies to rotate, is it so hard to imagine that the universe rotates on a larger scale??? if it rotates it must have center ??? My guess is that the universe has a center and we are near it and since everything moves in relation to eveything else its probably safe to assume if there is a center and we are in it, we are better to suggest we are always near it in proximity as was said earlier. Now I am just a simple caveman and will re-read some cave paintings and spend some more time thinking of this after my hunt... in the meantime i suggest the inquisitive mind read Starlight and time by Russell Humphreys. Khouse dot org also has some fun articles on this subject. 

actually the center of the universe is in a pineapple under the sea....


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## JWJ (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:b0823e75bd][i:b0823e75bd]Originally posted by New wine skin[/i:b0823e75bd]
actually the center of the universe is in a pineapple under the sea.... [/quote:b0823e75bd]

I always wondered why I like Sponge Bob Sqaure Pants :yes:


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:8210ada0dd][i:8210ada0dd]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:8210ada0dd]
For my part, Ian, I trying to make hay out of the observation that everything is moving away from us, not whether it's going around us. It's kind of hard to stand on, say, Alpha Centauri and observe that everything is going away from the earth, but not from where you are standing. But even at that distance the difference would be too small to draw conclusions. 

Right now, for scientists, the earth is the centre, because it's the same distance in every direction for them. And from their theories, from their vantage point, they draw conclusions about the origin and age of the entire universe. What the actual physical centre is, well who knows that? [/quote:8210ada0dd]


many scientists would tell you the center of the universe is where the big bang occured - the concentration of all physical matter in one small microscopic place... from the time of the big bang, the universe has been expanding at the speed of light in all directions simultaneously...

what a faith! hahaha


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## kceaster (Jun 10, 2004)

I would argue that earth is the center of the universe based on the fact that God created it and has focused His plan of redemption on the inhabitants He's put here.

Did Christ visit any other planets? I'm sure if we ever send an expedition to Mars, a guy named Joe Smith will find some plates with engravings.

It is not egocentric to believe ourselves to be the center of God's universe. From the light He's given to us, we are the center of His attention.

Don't put too much faith in what Astronomy and Science teach. They are speculative at best. They even create things that don't exist, like dark energy.

When man looks at the heavens, he should see God, instead he sees what he believes to be true from his wicked heart. It would be just like God to bend light and shade it so that man cannot see it like it really is.

But when it comes down to the science of it all, what do they really see? They can see stars and the things with telescopes, but beyond that, God could really be throwing them a curve ball on all these things they supposedly discover. How they see &quot;mathematically&quot; is beyond me. Who checks their answers?

In Christ,

KC


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:1b20cdc8d6][i:1b20cdc8d6]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:1b20cdc8d6]
I would argue that earth is the center of the universe based on the fact that God created it and has focused His plan of redemption on the inhabitants He's put here.

Did Christ visit any other planets? I'm sure if we ever send an expedition to Mars, a guy named Joe Smith will find some plates with engravings.

It is not egocentric to believe ourselves to be the center of God's universe. From the light He's given to us, we are the center of His attention.

Don't put too much faith in what Astronomy and Science teach. They are speculative at best. They even create things that don't exist, like dark energy.

When man looks at the heavens, he should see God, instead he sees what he believes to be true from his wicked heart. It would be just like God to bend light and shade it so that man cannot see it like it really is.

But when it comes down to the science of it all, what do they really see? They can see stars and the things with telescopes, but beyond that, God could really be throwing them a curve ball on all these things they supposedly discover. How they see &quot;mathematically&quot; is beyond me. Who checks their answers?

In Christ,

KC [/quote:1b20cdc8d6]



i guess it might be cool if we were in the center... kind of like Kansas!

but really we don't have any evidence in scripture suggesting that we are in the physical, or geographical, center of the universe... statistically, it would be much more natural to believe that we aren't - since there is only one center, and infinite non-centers....

we might be &quot;near&quot; the center... but maybe i'm taking the word &quot;center&quot; too literal, or with some other meaning... we have what God has given us in His word... anything more is speculative as well...

ace


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

There is no reason from scripture to be certain that earth is the center of the universe. Certainly the center of God's attention. 

I'm not convinced by arguments that have been put forth that I should consider earth the center of existence. The universe is so wonderfully organic, beautifully constructed what's being discovered now about the seas of stars is fantastic. I do not feel less loved if the earth exists on the edge, bottom, top-left, or bottom left hand corner of the universe. Neither should anyone else. Location doesn't necessarily indicate importance. Where scripture is silent...perhaps we should follow suit?


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:59fe6c40cb][i:59fe6c40cb]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:59fe6c40cb]
There is no reason from scripture to be certain that earth is the center of the universe. Certainly the center of God's attention. 

I'm not convinced by arguments that have been put forth that I should consider earth the center of existence. The universe is so wonderfully organic, beautifully constructed what's being discovered now about the seas of stars is fantastic. I do not feel less loved if the earth exists on the edge, bottom, top-left, or bottom left hand corner of the universe. Neither should anyone else. Location doesn't necessarily indicate importance. Where scripture is silent...perhaps we should follow suit? [/quote:59fe6c40cb]


 exactly...


BUT, it's a warm fuzzy feeling to think we are the center of His attention as well... Isn't HE the center of His attention? What SCRIPTURE do we have that suggests we are?


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## Dan.... (Jun 10, 2004)

Hmmm......

If the earth were the center of the universe, then....

the universe is wobbling! 

The earth is approx. 93 million miles from the Sun. Hence, relative to position of the Sun, the earth spans a total distance of approximately 186 million miles every six months.

Since &quot;the center of the universe&quot; is orbitting the sun then, either the the universe itself is wobbling, or all of the stars within the universe are wobbling.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:37f01ff252][i:37f01ff252]Originally posted by ace[/i:37f01ff252]
[quote:37f01ff252][i:37f01ff252]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:37f01ff252]
There is no reason from scripture to be certain that earth is the center of the universe. Certainly the center of God's attention. 

I'm not convinced by arguments that have been put forth that I should consider earth the center of existence. The universe is so wonderfully organic, beautifully constructed what's being discovered now about the seas of stars is fantastic. I do not feel less loved if the earth exists on the edge, bottom, top-left, or bottom left hand corner of the universe. Neither should anyone else. Location doesn't necessarily indicate importance. Where scripture is silent...perhaps we should follow suit? [/quote:37f01ff252]


 exactly...


BUT, it's a warm fuzzy feeling to think we are the center of His attention as well... Isn't HE the center of His attention? What SCRIPTURE do we have that suggests we are? [/quote:37f01ff252]

Oh yeah right how could I forget! God is the center of his attention. So maybe the center of the universe is...heaven?


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:11001e9a59][i:11001e9a59]Originally posted by Dan....[/i:11001e9a59]
Hmmm......

If the earth were the center of the universe, then....

the universe is wobbling! 

The earth is approx. 93 million miles from the Sun. Hence, relative to position of the Sun, the earth spans a total distance of approximately 186 million miles every six months.

Since &quot;the center of the universe&quot; is orbitting the sun then, either the the universe itself is wobbling, or all of the stars within the universe are wobbling. [/quote:11001e9a59]

That is precisely what I was trying to [i:11001e9a59]say[/i:11001e9a59]! It just doesn't make any sense.


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:0b26f60570][i:0b26f60570]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:0b26f60570]
[quote:0b26f60570][i:0b26f60570]Originally posted by ace[/i:0b26f60570]
[quote:0b26f60570][i:0b26f60570]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:0b26f60570]
There is no reason from scripture to be certain that earth is the center of the universe. Certainly the center of God's attention. 

I'm not convinced by arguments that have been put forth that I should consider earth the center of existence. The universe is so wonderfully organic, beautifully constructed what's being discovered now about the seas of stars is fantastic. I do not feel less loved if the earth exists on the edge, bottom, top-left, or bottom left hand corner of the universe. Neither should anyone else. Location doesn't necessarily indicate importance. Where scripture is silent...perhaps we should follow suit? [/quote:0b26f60570]


 exactly...


BUT, it's a warm fuzzy feeling to think we are the center of His attention as well... Isn't HE the center of His attention? What SCRIPTURE do we have that suggests we are? [/quote:0b26f60570]

Oh yeah right how could I forget! God is the center of his attention. So maybe the center of the universe is...heaven? [/quote:0b26f60570]



well, i'm not very theological really, but i just felt like God's ways are so much higher than ours, and His thoughts so much higher... He needn't concentrate on this physical universe to even hold it together... He could have other things of above, or elsewhere, where He may pay attention to as well...

hahaha, it sounds like i'm saying there's aliens or something, hahaha... no way! not at all... it's kind of like trying to prove a universal negative - it's not possible...

it's impossible for us to determine if we are any center of the universe... but what a fun thing to think about... :yes:


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## JohnV (Jun 10, 2004)

Ian and Dan:

I've reread this thread, and I find no one is actually stating that the earth is the physical centre of the universe, to the extent that the sun, and so all the universe, is wobbling around the earth. What seems to be argued, rather, is that man cannot know anything about the universe except from his central location. That is a horse of a different colour. I think that maybe we've been missing each other here.

I just finished writing a piece in the Six-Day thread in which I set out a couple of my concerns about modern scientific theory, and how it reflects upon itself, not inviolable theology. In this thread, all I've done is change the emphasis in the observation &quot;everything is moving away&quot; from &quot;away&quot; to the implied &quot;from us&quot; because of the observational starting point. 

I will admit freely that the distances are too great to determine that our earth is not also moving away from some theoretical centre. That is not the question I was addressing. It's just that whether we are or not, there is no way of knowing this, for our reference is ourselves, and not the moving universe. We can theoretically date a snapshot of the stars back to the time it was taken, and make generalizations about the earth's movement, but there is no degree north, south, or degree east or west that we can put a place name to, so as to determine our rate of movement. For all intents and purposes, the earth is the observational centre of the universe from our position. 

It has been stated that some galaxies spin in an opposite direction to others. But how do we know whether they are not merely upside down? Again, an observation in reference to our observation deck.

It makes no difference to our importance to God where in the universe we are situated. To the right would make more sense than the centre. But for observing man, the earth is the centre of reference.


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:62ce5db1f5][i:62ce5db1f5]Originally posted by Dan....[/i:62ce5db1f5]
Hmmm......

If the earth were the center of the universe, then....

the universe is wobbling! 

The earth is approx. 93 million miles from the Sun. Hence, relative to position of the Sun, the earth spans a total distance of approximately 186 million miles every six months.

Since &quot;the center of the universe&quot; is orbitting the sun then, either the the universe itself is wobbling, or all of the stars within the universe are wobbling. [/quote:62ce5db1f5]



unless the center of the universe is 186 million miles (or aproximately 16 light minutes) in diameter!

would the center of the earth have to be the center of the universe? or the general vacinity of earth as the &quot;center&quot;... which, literally would make the sun the center of the universe... but figuratively, since there's no life that we know of on the sun, earth would be the center of the universe - just about 8 light minutes off center! hahaha 
:bs2:


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:a0619ea499][i:a0619ea499]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:a0619ea499]
Ian and Dan:

I've reread this thread, and I find no one is actually stating that the earth is the physical centre of the universe, to the extent that the sun, and so all the universe, is wobbling around the earth. What seems to be argued, rather, is that man cannot know anything about the universe except from his central location. That is a horse of a different colour. I think that maybe we've been missing each other here.

I just finished writing a piece in the Six-Day thread in which I set out a couple of my concerns about modern scientific theory, and how it reflects upon itself, not inviolable theology. In this thread, all I've done is change the emphasis in the observation &quot;everything is moving away&quot; from &quot;away&quot; to the implied &quot;from us&quot; because of the observational starting point. 

I will admit freely that the distances are too great to determine that our earth is not also moving away from some theoretical centre. That is not the question I was addressing. It's just that whether we are or not, there is no way of knowing this, for our reference is ourselves, and not the moving universe. We can theoretically date a snapshot of the stars back to the time it was taken, and make generalizations about the earth's movement, but there is no degree north, south, or degree east or west that we can put a place name to, so as to determine our rate of movement. For all intents and purposes, the earth is the observational centre of the universe from our position. 

It has been stated that some galaxies spin in an opposite direction to others. But how do we know whether they are not merely upside down? Again, an observation in reference to our observation deck.

It makes no difference to our importance to God where in the universe we are situated. To the right would make more sense than the centre. But for observing man, the earth is the centre of reference. [/quote:a0619ea499]


very nice JohnV...
it's all relative.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

JohnV,

First of all I [i:9c19e9e96e]do[/i:9c19e9e96e] see people saying that we can't know if the earth is the physical center of the universe. I disagree with this kind of agnosticism and pessimistic view of science. Yes, there is an element of uncertainty but I do believe God has given us tools to understand some things about this universe. I believe that some of our observations are correct and we can be positively certain the earth is neither the center of the solar system nor the center of the universe. This idea is absurd for reasons already just briefly touched upon.

For observing man the earth is the center. But what about the universe? Can we trust our senses to tell us anything about how the bodies move through the heavens? I know, I know...Theory of Relativity etc. But speed, and location are different things altogether.

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:e75aca1641][i:e75aca1641]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:e75aca1641]
JohnV,

First of all I [i:e75aca1641]do[/i:e75aca1641] see people saying that we can't know if the earth is the physical center of the universe. I disagree with this kind of agnosticism and pessimistic view of science. Yes, there is an element of uncertainty but I do believe God has given us tools to understand some things about this universe. I believe that some of our observations are correct and we can be positively certain the earth is neither the center of the solar system nor the center of the universe. This idea is absurd for reasons already just briefly touched upon.

For observing man the earth is the center. But what about the universe? Can we trust our senses to tell us anything about how the bodies move through the heavens? I know, I know...Theory of Relativity etc. But speed, and location are different things altogether.

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:e75aca1641]


i'm not sure what you are saying, but i sure hope you aren't accusing me of being agnostic or pessimistic... i'm just sharing my opinion that i don't really think we can prove the earth is or is not the center of the universe, since we haven't even ever found any ends to the universe... it's just too big, obviously... while i feel the odds of actually being the center are not realistic, i can't prove that we aren't... 

i'm not saying we won't know in the future, but there is NO evidence available now to suggest EITHER.

if you disagree, i would certainly be interested to be shown ANY passages of scripture or ANY evidence in science to support your claim...

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by ace]


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

Ace that is what I mean by agnosticism, a kind literal kind of agnosticism. You and others in this thread are saying that you have no knowledge (a-gnostic) to point you in one direction or the other. You guys are also somewhat skeptical of our ability to tell whether or not the earth is the center of the universe from observation based on human limitations. I am disagreeing with this idea. I think it is abundantly clear that the earth could not be the center of the universe! It's possible our solar system could be near the universe's center. It's possible that the route our little planet takes through universe is near the center of the universe but for a planet to actually be the center of the universe would mean as someone said earler that the universe was literally [b:d1b4e06b68]wobbling[/b:d1b4e06b68].

:blah1:

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

Sorry for not being clear about what I meant with the &quot;agnostic&quot; comment Ace.

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:63a5d8b342][i:63a5d8b342]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:63a5d8b342]
Ace that is what I mean by agnosticism, a kind literal kind of agnosticism. You and others in this thread are saying that you have no knowledge (a-gnostic) to point you in one direction or the other. You guys are also somewhat skeptical of our ability to tell whether or not the earth is the center of the universe from observation based on human limitations. I am disagreeing with this idea. I think it is abundantly clear that the earth could not be the center of the universe! It's possible our solar system could be near the universe's center. It's possible that the route our little planet takes through universe is near the center of the universe but for a planet to actually be the center of the universe would mean as someone said earler that the universe was literally [b:63a5d8b342]wobbling[/b:63a5d8b342].

:blah1:

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:63a5d8b342]


ah, very well...
allow me a moment to split hairs:

i did state that i felt that we are NOT the center based on statistics and probability. but conceded my view since we do not presently have the capacity to make such measurements...

just a thought, but if we are not at/near the center, then we are more near one side or end... how near that end we are, we do not know, but even being nearer to one side, we still have yet to find that end... all the more large and vast is the remaining opposing side... i think that &quot;talk&quot; of this nature if very much fun - fun to imagine the vastness of space... but from here on earth, all we can do is look out into ancient history that has traveled here at the speed of light (not to forget the mature universe God created, i know the light did not have the historical time to actually travel here...but i digress)...

all we can do is look out to what appears to us as something without end... so how can we know the shape, size, or motion of the universe - even relative to the earth?

while i do think that space studies are magnificent, i am usually skeptical of what i hear - many of the scientists have atheistic motivations to explain the universe - they assume an ancient universe, and &quot;explain&quot; from that assumption... so i'm usually not quick to accept theories in this domain...

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by ace]


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## a (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:f4d0403397][i:f4d0403397]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:f4d0403397]
Sorry for not being clear about what I meant with the &quot;agnostic&quot; comment Ace.

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:f4d0403397]


my dear friend ian, i was first unsure of who you were talking about, and then certainly i misinterpreted your meaning...

you are correct though: no-knowledge


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## JohnV (Jun 11, 2004)

Remember too, Ian and Ace, that a boundless universe with a centre is just as odious as a wobbling universe.


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## a (Jun 11, 2004)

[quote:924d61f4a7][i:924d61f4a7]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:924d61f4a7]
Remember too, Ian and Ace, that a boundless universe with a centre is just as odious as a wobbling universe. [/quote:924d61f4a7]


odious = Arousing or meriting strong dislike, aversion, or intense displeasure



how so?

[Edited on 6-11-2004 by ace]


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## JohnV (Jun 11, 2004)

To the intellect.


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## a (Jun 11, 2004)

[quote:e9ec5cfa0c][i:e9ec5cfa0c]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:e9ec5cfa0c]
To the intellect. [/quote:e9ec5cfa0c]



do you mean &quot;intellect&quot; as in the intellectual? or &quot;intellect&quot; as any person's capacity for knowledge?



but still, how so? why?


why would an intellectual person consider it a bad thing to admit we have not yet found the ends of the universe? or even know that ends exists? or even how it would end if it is finite? if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? etc...

why are these unanswered questions &quot;odious&quot; to the intellect or the intellectual?


or, if this is not what you are implying - then why is a wobbling universe or a boundless universe &quot;odious&quot; to anyone? why concern do we have as far as the design goes - can't we just accept God's creation as wonderful, pleasing, and happily fascinating?

(i'm just thinking out loud - trying to figure out what it is that you meant)


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## JohnV (Jun 11, 2004)

[quote:fde756c3b7][i:fde756c3b7]Originally posted by ace[/i:fde756c3b7]
[quote:fde756c3b7][i:fde756c3b7]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:fde756c3b7]
To the intellect. [/quote:fde756c3b7]



do you mean &quot;intellect&quot; as in the intellectual? or &quot;intellect&quot; as any person's capacity for knowledge?



but still, how so? why?


why would an intellectual person consider it a bad thing to admit we have not yet found the ends of the universe? or even know that ends exists? or even how it would end if it is finite? if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? etc...

why are these unanswered questions &quot;odious&quot; to the intellect or the intellectual?


or, if this is not what you are implying - then why is a wobbling universe or a boundless universe &quot;odious&quot; to anyone? why concern do we have as far as the design goes - can't we just accept God's creation as wonderful, pleasing, and happily fascinating?

(i'm just thinking out loud - trying to figure out what it is that you meant) [/quote:fde756c3b7]

Ace:
Look at Dan's argument carefully. It is a wonderfully articulated argument, in that it says little, while at the same time it says a lot. All he says is that if the earth is the centre, then that would mean that the universe must be wobbling around it. He doesn't give a vlaue judgment on that scenario. The impact is of it is great. The universe, as great as it is perceived to be at present, doing a wobble routine around our comparatively insignicantly little earth; it just boggles the mind. The mind will not accept it. 

In the same way, if the universe is theoretically infinite in every drection, then &quot;centre&quot; is inconceivable. The mind cannot accept that either. 

But neither of these are obviated by the fact that the intellect does not accept them. For we have the same difficulty with the concept of Trinity, but we all do believe that. And once we know more about it, it becomes much more reasonable, to the point that the idea of Trinity becomes irrefutable, from a Christian's point of view. It may yet be that the earth is the centre of the universe, and that the wobble effect is non-existent, that it's just a smokescreen. And limitless space may still have a centre.

For example, if the earth is the third planet from the sun, and the larger planets orbit at a further distance, and there is a Pluto on the outer rim, and the earth is the only habitable planet, all these things being carefully put in place, then, though the sun is the central location of the solar system, the earth is yet the focal point of the whole system. It's like a man's heart: it's not in the very centre of his body, but it is central for a lot of things. Are not scientists looking not just for planets, but for planets in a particular orbit in relation to their sun? So in a sense one could say that the earth is the centre of the solar system, for all things are in place to sustain life on earth.

The universe does not have to wobble around the earth for the earth to be central to the universe. Nor does the earth have to be in the exact centre for the earth to be central to the universe. Of course you know that I am talking about the Biblical importance of the earth, in that God deigned to send His Son to live among us, and to die for us, in order that He may demonstrate His great love for us. He also wrote His Word for us, and gave us an account of the beginning of all things created, as if the earth was His focal point for the entire universe. It is as if all things exist just for us. 

I am not going to be accused of allowing my ego to run amok for saying these things, and believing them. For I am not self-elevated by the consideration of these things, but rather humbled by the extent and value of His boundless love for us. In my estimation it is less that all the universe exists for our sake than that God sent His Son for our sake. The latter is a greater wonder, a greater importance, a greater blessing, and inspires a greater sense of humble awe. 

And that brings me back to the wobble argument. It is so beautifully simple, that it just deflates all our argument either way, to my mind; and put us right back to where we should be, on an erath that needs to be third from the sun, and on an orbit at its' present rate, around a sun at its' present size and intensity, as well as needing the moon and stars, etc.


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## a (Jun 11, 2004)

ok john?!
i'll give you the last word on this one...

though it all still seems a bit &quot;wobbly&quot; to me! :bs2:


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