# Lucid Dreaming



## Cheshire Cat (Feb 4, 2007)

Lucid dreaming is kind of getting popular and trendy in some philosophical circles these days. It is basically when one realizes that they are dreaming while dreaming. Yet, that's just where it starts. After much practice one can get to where they can control their dreams, and pretty much do whatever they want. It's not always associated with new age, but they are pretty big on it. My point is that it doesn't have to be associated with new age. 

Here is a website on it: http://www.dreamviews.com/

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 4, 2007)

It sounds pretty strange to me to use dreams as a recreational activity. The concept does remind me of a poem by Edgar Allan Poe: _A Dream Within a Dream_:



> All that we see or seem
> Is but a dream within a dream.


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## SRoper (Feb 4, 2007)

From my own experience I have found that upon discovering that I am dreaming I gain limited control over the dream. There are some interesting implications to this phenomenon. One is I'm never quite sure if I'm culpable for the actions I perform in my dreams. I guess I'll leave it at that.


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## Vytautas (Feb 4, 2007)

Since dreams are as real as the rest of creation, is it possible to sin when dreaming?


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## Cheshire Cat (Feb 4, 2007)

Scott and Richard bring up an interesting question. Personally, I think that it is possible to sin while dreaming. Like Scott, I can sometimes have limited control over my dreams. I think that if one is able to do anything that they want in a dream (i.e. they have control over their lucidity), then they can also take part in sinful behavior on purpose in their dreams. So if one is lucid and in control, I think one can definitely sin (being responsible for such mental events). Now if one isn't lucid and in control, then I'm not quite sure, although I am leaning towards 'no'.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Vytautas said:


> Since dreams are as real as the rest of creation, is it possible to sin when dreaming?


Sure, every aspect of us is tainted with corruption so I would say yes. Sexual fantasy, harming people you dislike, criminal actions, you name it and you can probably dream it with a lusty appetite.


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## Cheshire Cat (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Sure, every aspect of us is tainted with corruption so I would say yes. Sexual fantasy, harming people you dislike, criminal actions, you name it and you can probably dream it with a lusty appetite.


Well I guess a question would be, what are the differences in terms of responsibility when one is lucid and in control as compared to when one is not lucid and in control? It seems that one would be at least more responsible while lucid and in control.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

caleb_woodrow said:


> Well I guess a question would be, what are the differences in terms of responsibility when one is lucid and in control as compared to when one is not lucid and in control? It seems that one would be at least more responsible while lucid and in control.


It would seem if you are conscientious of your dream and you steered it purposefully into deviant waters then you have pondered corrupt thoughts on purpose and not simply because the unchecked flesh will drift that way naturally.

The real question would be is voyeurism sinful, if so and certainly most would agree instances of it are then dreams would potentially hold the same description.


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## VaughanRSmith (Feb 4, 2007)

SRoper said:


> From my own experience I have found that upon discovering that I am dreaming I gain limited control over the dream.





Also, when I realise I'm dreaming and I don't like it, I try to open my eyes really wide in the dream, which ends up waking me up. Its awesome.


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## SRoper (Feb 4, 2007)

Augustine writes that we are not culpable for what happens in our dreams. However it is clear from his reasoning that he is not aware of (or does not consider) the possibility of lucid dreams. I think he is right that if it is not the result of an act of the will we are not culpable.


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## Richard King (Feb 4, 2007)

I can't speak from personal experience but my oldest son got very very VERY into this and it did not benefit him. 
I can't discuss this without sounding like the old fogey but I think my son would tell someone now that playing in some realms of the mind or the consciousness/subconciousness is dangerous. 
Maybe that warning doesn't go for everyone. Maybe he had underlying issues that were just intensified by lucid dreaming but it can become a little mushroomy if you know what I mean...
if nothing else, you aren't getting actual restful sleep


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## Croghanite (Feb 4, 2007)

caleb_woodrow said:


> Scott and Richard bring up an interesting question. Personally, I think that it is possible to sin while dreaming. Like Scott, I can sometimes have limited control over my dreams. I think that if one is able to do anything that they want in a dream (i.e. they have control over their lucidity), then they can also take part in sinful behavior on purpose in their dreams. So if one is lucid and in control, I think one can definitely sin (being responsible for such mental events). Now if one isn't lucid and in control, then I'm not quite sure, although I am leaning towards 'no'.


 
As a matter of fact, I can have great control over some of my dreams. There are some recurring dreams that I have where I can stop, rewind, restart, and give it a different outcome. Its crazy! 
The dreams I have some control over usually have some aspect of what has recently happened to me (mostly the day of the dream). Its just blown way out of porportion. I need a doctor


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## Cheshire Cat (Feb 4, 2007)

Richard King said:


> I can't speak from personal experience but my oldest son got very very VERY into this and it did not benefit him.
> I can't discuss this without sounding like the old fogey but I think my son would tell someone now that playing in some realms of the mind or the consciousness/subconciousness is dangerous.
> Maybe that warning doesn't go for everyone. Maybe he had underlying issues that were just intensified by lucid dreaming but it can become a little mushroomy if you know what I mean...
> if nothing else, you aren't getting actual restful sleep


From what I have read it takes much practice and effort. I could definitely see how it could be dangerous. Personally, I think I am too lazy to try to develop total control. I would disagree with you that one isn't getting restful sleep though. Everybody dreams (from what I've heard, and I could be wrong), just many people don't remember them. I don't see how lucid dreaming would affect recuperation much more than regular dreaming.


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## turmeric (Feb 4, 2007)

I was getting all anxious about somethng when I realized I was dreaming - what a relief! When you have limited control over your dream, you are not sleeping deeply, in my experience.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 4, 2007)

I've done this sort of thing all my life. I never knew it had a name (or, for that matter, a website!). It really is helpful when learning a new skill. Maybe it takes practice, but I started doing it deliberately when I was in my early teens.

For instance, when I was learning to fly, I practiced touch and goes in my mind while dreaming. When I was learning tennis, I repeated serves over and over again. The next day it was as if I had spent all that time practicing for real. It really worked.

I've done it with memorizing scripture and I even learn Hebrew verbs this way. 

But now that it has become trendy, I guess I'll have to give it up.


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## Pergamum (Feb 5, 2007)

Wow...

Now I can learn how to remember my pants and show up on time for my 8th Grade Math exam!!!


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## BobVigneault (Feb 5, 2007)

Vytautas said:


> Since dreams are as real as the rest of creation, is it possible to sin when dreaming?



Only if you are a sinner.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 5, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Wow...
> 
> Now I can learn how to remember my pants and show up on time for my 8th Grade Math exam!!!




Hey Trevor, remember last week that guy you stuffed in his locker so he missed the 8th grade math test? THAT WAS ME! Stay out of my dreams and while you're at it.... GIVE ME MY PANTS BACK! PS, where's the stupid bathroom in that school? I can't find it anywhere.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 5, 2007)

*Silent Lucidity*
(Chris DeGarmo)

Hush now don't cry
Wipe away the teardrop from your eye
You're lying safe in bed
It was all a bad dream
Spinning in your head
Your mind tricked you to feel the pain
Of someone close to you leaving the game of life
So here it is, another chance
Wide awake you face the day
Your dream is over...or has it just begun?

There's a place I like to hide
A doorway that I run to in the night
Relax child, you were there
But only didn't realize it and you were scared
It's a place where you will learn
To face your fears, retrace the tears
And ride the whims of your mind
Commanding in another world
Suddenly, you hear and see
This magic new dimension

I will be watching over you
I am gonna help you see it through
I will protect you in the night
I am smiling next to you...in silent lucidity

If you open your mind for me
You won't rely on open eyes to see
The walls you built within
Come tumblng down, and a new world will begin
Living twice at once you learn
You're safe from pain in the dream domain
A soul set free to fly
A round trip journey in your head
Master of illusion, can you realize
Your dream's alive, you can be the guide but...

I will be watching over you
I am gonna help you see it through
I will protect you in the night
I am smiling next to you...in silent lucidity


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## VictorBravo (Feb 5, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Wow...
> 
> Now I can learn how to remember my pants and show up on time for my 8th Grade Math exam!!!



LOL. I forgot about my recurring dream about having to go to a final exam for a class I never attended. Even so, I just imagined myself as passing. That showed them. . . .


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## SRoper (Feb 5, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> LOL. I forgot about my recurring dream about having to go to a final exam for a class I never attended. Even so, I just imagined myself as passing. That showed them. . . .



Those are the dreams I never realize are dreams until some time after I wake up. You'd think I'd catch on now that I've been out of school for several years.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 5, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> LOL. I forgot about my recurring dream about having to go to a final exam for a class I never attended.



Why is THAT dream so universal?
How universal do you suppose it is?
Do you think Jesus' classmates in Deuteronomy School had a similar dream later on?
Do aborigines dream about showing up in class with clothes ON?


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## Archlute (Feb 5, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> I've done it with memorizing scripture and I even learn Hebrew verbs this way.



Ughh... I've had lengthy dreams in the past where I was working on Hebrew translation and memorization.  Definitely _not_ restful for the seminary student.


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## Augusta (Feb 5, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Why is THAT dream so universal?
> How universal do you suppose it is?
> Do you think Jesus' classmates in Deuteronomy School had a similar dream later on?
> Do aborigines dream about showing up in class with clothes ON?


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## polemic_turtle (Feb 5, 2007)

So, so.. I see I'm not alone. I read about this a month ago or so and recognized it pretty fast as something I've done on occasion. Are you being serious, Victor? If so, I'm interested. I need to catch up on my reading, you see...  Seriously, now..


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## VictorBravo (Feb 5, 2007)

polemic_turtle said:


> So, so.. I see I'm not alone. I read about this a month ago or so and recognized it pretty fast as something I've done on occasion. Are you being serious, Victor? If so, I'm interested. I need to catch up on my reading, you see...  Seriously, now..



Actually, I'm sort of serious about it. Just before going to sleep I'd focus on what I was trying to learn and repeat it in my memory over and over again. Even when I was asleep it kept going. 

But I get to sleep very easily (except before a trial), so I would be rested even with all this effort.

As for reading while I sleep, I haven't figured that out yet. Wish I could.


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## polemic_turtle (Feb 5, 2007)

Now, having visited the site referenced above and the forum thereof, I'm disturbed. "Dream guides"? "Come back soon!"? These fellows who are by all indications unregenerate are fascinated with all this stuff. Truly spooky. Lord help us.

It reminds me of Frank Peretti, to be honest. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?


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## SRoper (Feb 5, 2007)

I went to the site linked in the first post. They claim that they are not new agey, but they still mention astral projection and collective dreaming.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 5, 2007)

After all my comments, I want to make sure everyone knows that, while I think intuition and steering your dreams (as in merely a form of conscious concentration) are fine things for certain tasks, I am absolutely against "dream guides" or astral projection or any of that foolishness. My mother has been into that stuff for 40 years and she is sadly blinded. It is of Satan.


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## Cheshire Cat (Feb 6, 2007)

Yeah many people who are into new age are into lucid dreaming. It doesn't have to be, but it just so happens to be. Its definitely alluring to those who believe this life here and now is all there is.


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## bookslover (Feb 6, 2007)

Then there's the all-time classic dream, the one where you're falling...

I hate it when I remember my dreams, because they're just so either weird or stupid. My wife is of the same opinion about her own dreams.


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## bookslover (Feb 6, 2007)

A more general question: _Why_ do we dream? Did God have anything particular in mind by giving us humans the capacity to dream? 

What is the purpose of a dream? Some researchers think that dreaming is the brain's way of catching up on it's "filing," so to speak, something the brain is too "busy" to do when we're awake. Others admit they have no idea what the answer to this question is.

We know that, in Scripture, God sometimes communicated by dreams. Beyond that, does the Bible have a "theology" of dreams (seminary course: "Dreamology 101")?


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## Theoretical (Feb 6, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Then there's the all-time classic dream, the one where you're falling...
> 
> I hate it when I remember my dreams, because they're just so either weird or stupid. My wife is of the same opinion about her own dreams.


See, I get the one where I'm falling not when I'm even remotely asleep, but when I'm wide awake lying in bed. Go figure.


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