# Can you eat with Catholics? PRC brethren, I need some help.



## Bondman (Feb 25, 2007)

WCF 29.6
That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transsubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason; overthroweth the nature of the sacrament, and hath been, and is the cause of manifold superstitions; yea, of gross idolatries.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler - not even to eat with such a one.

Here is my situation: I live with a Roman Catholic, who I have great affection for, and whom I have for some time considered an actual believer because of her statements concerning her understanding of salvation. This person happens to be my 78 year-old grandmother. 

After reading the WCF and Rome's catechism on this issue, I am convinced that their practice is idolatry.

At this point I see only two options: 

1) Tell my grandmother that since, according to God's Word, the doctrine and practice of her church, and herself as well by her association with it, are guilty of idolatry, I can no longer eat meals with her.

2) Reconsider how genuine a person's faith can be after buying into the Roman lie. 

This is a very hard issue for me. I would appreciate your advice as well as your prayer as I seek to, by God's grace, obey His commandments.


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## Herald (Feb 25, 2007)

Matthew - me thinks you are taking the passage from 1 Corinthians 5 out of context. Consider the whole passage:

*1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. *

The key here is Paul's usage of the phrase, "so-called brother." A person who remains in the Roman system for a lifetime is going to have similar sound-bytes to you and I. In her mind your grandmother may actually believe she is a Christian. That is not that same as the immoral person being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 5. Is your grandmother sexually immoral, a drunkard or a swindler? That is the context of of this chapter. Furthermore, Paul specifically states:

*10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. *

Verse 10 (above) describes the unsaved. Even our Lord ate with these people. Consider this:

*Luke 5:29-32 29 And Levi gave a big reception for Him in his house; and there was a great crowd of tax-gatherers and other people who were reclining at the table with them. 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax-gatherers and sinners?" 31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." *

Unless your grandmother was a member of a true Christian church, and then committed these imoral acts, you have nothing to worry about. In addition, where is church discipline under Matthew 18? Has the church gone to her to confront her of idolatry? I would guess the answer is no, because she is a not part of the church.

Continue eating with your grandmother. Continue to be a witness to her for Christ. The WCF may rightly label transsubstantiation as idolatry, but in this cae it is idolatry by one who is lost, not one who is in the church.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree with Bill. Look over the whole of 1 Cor. There is counsel about not taking communion with unbelievers, yet eating with them, counsel about the uselessness and nothingness of idols, and about how to behave in the presence of weak brothers.

Either your grandmother is not a believer, in which case you should not abandon her, or she is a very weak and ignorant believer, in which case she needs your fellowship and help.


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## etexas (Feb 25, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> I agree with Bill. Look over the whole of 1 Cor. There is counsel about not taking communion with unbelievers, yet eating with them, counsel about the uselessness and nothingness of idols, and about how to behave in the presence of weak brothers.
> 
> Either your grandmother is not a believer, in which case you should not abandon her, or she is a very weak and ignorant believer, in which case she needs your fellowship and help.


Ditto here. I stand foursquare with the remarks made above your grandmother needs your witness and prayers.


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## beej6 (Feb 25, 2007)

Matthew, may I just add my "ditto." Of course you shouldn't partake of the "Eucharist" if you should happen to accompany your grandmother to "Mass." But I wouldn't stop sharing ordinary meals with her. I sympathize as 95% of my family are Catholic. I continue to pray for them to be saved *despite* their church.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 26, 2007)

I also agree with Bill's comments. It would be sinful to participate in a Roman Catholic mass, which is idolatry, but having dinner with a Roman Catholic grandmother (I have one too  and was raised Roman Catholic myself), unless there are other factors to be considered, is not what Paul has in view in that passage. I think she would fall into the category described in verse 10. She does not profess the true religion; rather, I think Paul is speaking of one who does or has professed the true religion but by their impenitent sinful conduct falls into the category of someone who is or should be excommunicated from the true visible church. With such, the intimacy of fellowship at the dinner table should be avoided but with the family and the world, there is no apostolic requirement here to abstain. Even with one who is excommunicated but is family there is no requirement to abstain from dinner if you live with that person. If there is active idolatry going on at the dinner table, that would be a different matter, but I think what Paul has in mind is not per se applicable to this situation.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with the consensus here, too. As long as there's life there's hope of conversion. You don't know that she is elect, but you don't know that she isn't. Don't forgot those other remarkable examples very close to you!Do not participate in any idolatrous practice, and don't go to Mass. Other than that whatever you do, do not destroy this precious relationship - if you do, you will regret it for the rest of your life.


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## Kevin (Feb 26, 2007)

It seems everyone is in agreement here. So let me add my  don't partake of the mass with your grandmother but in all other ways honour her and trust God for her conversion.


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## calgal (Feb 26, 2007)

If I recall correctly, the Free Presbyterian Church makes a distinction between celebrating with family and friends and attending the mass. The latter will result in an Elder being removed from office. The problem being the mass, not associating with Catholics.  And this is not an RC friendly church......


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## Bondman (Feb 26, 2007)

Many thanks. 

Here is how I understand the consensus position:

The prohibition against eating with professed believers guilty of idolatry does not extend to those who one may suspect to be a true believer and yet are members of a false religion because of the fact that such a one is not a member of the true church and not under it's authority.

Thanks again.


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## Herald (Feb 26, 2007)

Bondman said:


> Many thanks.
> 
> Here is how I understand the consensus position:
> 
> ...



Matthew, I will add this: if one is not a member of the true church, they are not of Christ. Profession is worthless without evidence.


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## Bondman (Feb 26, 2007)

Isnt there a distinction between the visible and invisible body of Christ though? 
Are you saying that one must be a member of an orthodox church to be saved?


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