# Something seems to be happening in Africa and Asia



## timmopussycat (May 1, 2014)

Why Muslims Are Becoming the Best Evangelists | Christianity Today

Most here will know of this phenomenon, but the extent is surprising.


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## Pergamum (May 3, 2014)

Much of it is over-reporting by evangelicals.


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## Leslie (May 3, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> Much of it is over-reporting by evangelicals.



I disagree. I see this with my own eyes in my own country. If anything, this is under-reported. There were two separate events within easy driving distance from my location, where in one case hundreds and in the other case thousands of M's became believers, in both cases without any Christian evangelists involved. In the hundreds case, a Christian was brought in early, but those involved were discipled directly from the scriptures, which they (being educated people) could read. In the other case, after a vision, the group was discipled by Christian radio for 2 years before having any contact with a church. In both cases a substantial body of believers arose in a M community, with no evangelist on site to even think about bragging. There have been sporadic single conversions like this also; several of my associates heard the testimony of a guy who spoke in our town. They all gave the same account of what was said. The guy was risking his life to speak thus. Just a few weeks ago a roving missionary-to-nomads, over a guest house supper, conveyed his need for non-US-passport disciplers to go to a location in North Africa where a new church numbering 5000 is located. The new believers were keen to evangelize the rest of the Aarub world, but they need training. In this case no Westerners were allowed in the country other than for very short periods as tourists. There were no evangelists there to brag. In my humble opinion it seems that the Lord is harvesting some of the elect from the M nations before M supremicism completely engulfs the world. It's a profound example of divine sovereignty, His zapping individuals according to His choice.


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

Mary, has the Insider Movement made many waves in your part of the world? From my time and contacts in Asia I know that it has been a major concern over there but I wasn't sure if it was as big of an influence in Africa as well. Thanks for sharing about what God is doing there!


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## Leslie (May 3, 2014)

Hamalas said:


> Mary, has the Insider Movement made many waves in your part of the world? From my time and contacts in Asia I know that it has been a major concern over there but I wasn't sure if it was as big of an influence in Africa as well. Thanks for sharing about what God is doing there!



There is some insider stuff here, but not a lot. In the case of the over-100 who came to Christ inside of 3 days (after which the church grew rapidly), many were M clergy. At first they all stayed in their closets, but then they came out, each in his own time and manner. Some kept quiet for a time; others started teaching the forgiveness of sins through the atonement to their parishoners. They met together for prayer and Bible study, supporting each other, but initially not making contact with the local church. I don't know if they have made such contact since then. 

When I was associated with them, it was when some were just starting to come out. I did a clinic in the back rooms of an MBB-owned restaurant. My function was to keep people waiting, while the MBB's gossiped the gospel as they sat on the benches in the yard. Then they built a meeting place. At first it looked like an ordinary maahsk, minus the minaret. Jerusalem and Mecca are about in the same direction from here. After a while (while the mud plaster was still wet) a crude crucifix appeared on the walls, scratched with a nail. Then a pulpit appeared, with a prominent cross. Then crosses appeared in charcoal on the outside of the building. I saw a fellow walking around with a black T shirt with"Jesus is Lord" in white on it. A few years before he would have been killed. The M beanies were replaced with bare heads or baseball caps. The MBB's met on Saturdays; they didn't want to be identified as M's, but they weren't ready to be identified with the local church. It was fascinating to watch this all happen over months. I had pictures of all this. If my broken computer gets fixed and anyone is interested, I can send copies. 

In the case of the several-thousand, after the initial epiphany, they were discipled exclusively by radio. For two years the local church and this group were unaware of each other. In the same community there were a couple dozen MBB house churches, small and struggling, not growing much at all. Then the two groups met: the several-thousand who needed a church infrastructure, and the small house churches who were all set to receive an influx of new believers. A friend of mine lived in that community and watched this happen. This group is not insider at all, except that their meeting places are square like maasks are in the culture, not rectangular like Protestant churches. I don't know what day they meet. 

BTW: These dream and vision phenomena are NOT extra-canonical revelation. They teach nothing that is not taught in the Bible. It is just an auditory version of a conversion as a result of a billboard: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

Thanks for sharing! It's always encouraging to hear of God's Spirit at work to see his Kingdom go forth to ALL the nations!


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## Leslie (May 3, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> Much of it is over-reporting by evangelicals.



It just occurred to me that maybe you don't hear of this in your parts for the same reason that I don't hear of Shaman John's snake charms in my parts. We both have socioeconomic status in our areas of ministry. It is only human nature for people to NOT tell us what they think we don't want to hear. I don't believe in shaman snake charms. You don't believe that dreams and visions from God happen. So I don't hear about snake charms and you don't hear the other.


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## TylerRay (May 3, 2014)

> Here's the combination: their worldview, the conviction the Holy Spirit promised they would be under, and a missionary knowing how to respond to it. *Not reading to them or preaching to them or trying to tell them.* Self-discovery is a big part of these movements. Hand them a New Testament. Let them read it for themselves.



To this, Paul says:


> How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ... So then
> faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
> -Romans 10



If God has chosen to do something extraordinary, that is his prerogative and we should praise him for it; but let's not base our practice on the extraordinary. God has revealed his ordinary means.


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## Pergamum (May 3, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Much of it is over-reporting by evangelicals.
> ...



Dreams happen here, too. I don't believe they are revelatory but are rather "unusual providences" like the Cornelius example where such dreams prepared the person to receive the Gospel or a messenger of the Gospel.

Here is a critical review of David Garrison's book, "Church Planting Movement." I think a lot of the reporting is false and where I serve several "Isa Prayer Groups" were counted as successes (and no doubt included in CPM studies) even though they all still believed the Koran to be the Word of God, did not believe in the Trinity, and still practiced animistic practices. They did pray in the name of the Prophet Isa, however, and the missionary swore that they were "in the kingdom." Tacking on Jesus to other beliefs, even if they spread that new form of syncretism to others, is not evangelism. I do rejoice where God does, in fact, seem to be working, however. I am glad He seems to be working in your corner of the world. 


http://www.baptisttheology.org/baptisttheology/assets/File/Massey_Wrinkling_Time_SWJT.pdf


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## Free Christian (May 3, 2014)

Hello Tim. I read the link and where it says "that's the guy, that's the guy from my dreams" are they saying that in their dreams they saw a visual representation of Christ? Do you know what they mean in saying that, because if it was a actual visual, with a face to it then we would all know the validity of it all.


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## Pergamum (May 3, 2014)

Brett:

Many claim to see Christ, 15-20% of Sundanese Christians in Indonesia who come to Christ speak of dreams as being instrumental as part of the (long) process many of them experience as they first become open and then curious about Christianity, until they finally believe. We can conclude this is either demonic, the work of the dreamer's conscience or thoughts through providence, or Christ Himself revealing Himself. The second option seems most likely. We have a biblical precedent of dreams preceding a Gospel messenger in the case of Cornelius and Peter.


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## timmopussycat (May 3, 2014)

Free Christian said:


> Hello Tim. I read the link and where it says "that's the guy, that's the guy from my dreams" are they saying that in their dreams they saw a visual representation of Christ? Do you know what they mean in saying that, because if it was a actual visual, with a face to it then we would all know the validity of it all.



I don't know anything more than the article, I'm afraid.


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## Free Christian (May 3, 2014)

Thanks Tim and Pergamum. I did a search and found only limited things. One was just a being of light.
The second you mentioned Pergamum does sound the most logical or likely.


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## Leslie (May 4, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



This is logical. The dreams, visions, and epiphanies are a mixed bag. By their fruits we can know them. Those that result in genuine conversions that bear fruit have to be from God, not the devil, per Luke 11. Those that do not are not from God. Is this reasonable? In the two cases that I'm aware of here, there were lights and voices, possibly an image, but no photographable being. In both cases all those experiencing the epiphany initially became believers. In both cases many bore fruit, to the extent of suffering for the faith. In the one case the violence of the persecution (but not labelled as such) made international news. In the other case the persecution was low-key; it fizzled after some ophthalmologists came into the area and restored sight to some of the old M leaders who were blind from cataract. That changed the situation to the extent that the teenager could walk around with "Jesus is Lord" emblazoned on his T shirt and not be killed.


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## Free Christian (May 4, 2014)

Leslie said:


> the teenager could walk around with "Jesus is Lord" emblazoned on his T shirt and not be killed.


Things like that remind us of just how much freedom we in other countries have and should be thankful for!


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