# On Being Black and Reformed, by Anthony J. Carter



## Puritan Sailor (Dec 28, 2005)

I know I posted this in the library, but I hopefully more fruitful discussion will result than just book comments. 

I just finished reading this book and found it quite insightful and helpful. I'm curious what others have thought after reading this book. But, I am especially curious to hear the opinions of our black Reformed brethren. I know we have a few on the Board. I am curious if you have found his struggles similar to your own, and how we could work to be more sensative to that and help the Reformed faith transcend cultural lines. 

He didn't have alot to say on the differences in worship style, though he acknowledges it. But, I think that would probably have to make a seperate volume itself. But he definitely has helped open the door to expanding our understanding of theological development. 

Thoughts?

[Edited on 12-28-2005 by puritansailor]


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## BobVigneault (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm over half finished with the book. I'm enjoying it very much. I have been intrigued with the comparison made between the reformation (Luther et al.) and the birth of the African American church in America. The African Americans had to come out of the white dominated churches whose doctrine was correct but held to a double standard in it's application.

I think Carter does have a lot to say about worship style in that he seems to be saying that we (Presbyterians) are ignoring the exuberance that African Americans bring to worship and therefore are creating a barrier to them. Obviously I'm paraphrasing and my book is at home so I can't pull out the quotes.

Carter's conclusion is that the American church will better understand God's dealings with his people when we begin to understand the faith of our darker brothers and sisters that has formed out of and developed through oppression.

For the African American, Carter demonstrates how a Black theology finds it's true foundation in the Reformed faith.


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## refbaptdude (Dec 28, 2005)

I thought you guys might find this interesting in light of the current topic:

http://www.blackpuritan.com


Grace to all,
Steve Clevenger


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> A different and helpful perspective for me, a corn-bread fed Midwestern guy who didn't even have a black schoolmate until our school got ONE in grade school (and we immediately asked him if he liked to play basketball).



I hear you. I have one black freind (from Uganda) who I was very close to, but I didn't meet him until college, and he was a Christian. But there were none in the town I grew up in. I didn't start to meet them until I joined the Navy. But most (though not all) people I met in the Navy, white, black, or other, were not Christians at all, even if they went to Church. They mostly cared about alcohol, sex, and the lastest sports games. It was pretty much the same in college. I would love to meet more brothers in other cultures and help move the Church above the cultural fray, especially if I end up pastoring a church in the city.


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## Presbyrino (Dec 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> I met the author and found him very charitable. I heard him preach and read his book as well. A great sermon and a good book. He likened the black experience to the Hebrew slaves in Egypt and how faith sustained many.





I recently met the author at a conference in Chicago and heard him preach and he is a great preacher and a very gracious man. I bought his book and look forward to reading it asap.

He has two websites:
Blog: Non Nobis Domine
Cyrene Ministries


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 28, 2005)

Boy, ya'll were secluded! My closest friends have generally been black. My step-dad didn't understand why I couldn't make friends with any of the white kids as a child (well, hey, I wasn't born in that redneck town and the only kids accepting of others that were "outsiders" were the black kids, duh). Found them to be more open and real. Of course, I had just come from 3yrs in a situation where I was the minority (one of two blonde kids in a classroom full of a mix of asian kids).

I'll have to get that book for hubby. He also grew up around black culture.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## BrianBowman (Dec 28, 2005)

Trevor, 

You mention Winston-Salem - no wonder I like you so much, since I'm a North Carolina guy myself (who was raised in the mid-west)! I too have had a number of close black friends and for several years I was immersed in playing Rhythm & Blues/Jazz on guitar. It's been a few years now since I've been around this "vibe" and I kind of miss it. I can really see why blacks, with their often exuberant worship styles would feel alienated in our predominately white Reformed Churches.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## Presbyrino (Dec 28, 2005)

I think just from a historical perspective alone, Reformed and Presbyterian Churches do not have a good reputation in the black community. A black pastor from Bethleham Baptist Church, Sherard Burns, did a great talk on the legacy of Johnathan Edwards in reference to the black community, at the Jonathan Edwards Conference a couple of years ago. It's been a couple of years, but if I can recall some of his points, he stated that Reformed/Presbyterian Churches have always had the correct biblical hermeneutic, but when it came to their relations to the black community, they (Reformed/Presbterian) adopted an inconsistent cultural hermeneutic. Reformed/Presbetrians churches always seemed to shy away or be silent on issues affecting the black community (slavery, civil rights, racism etc) . Sherard also said that, the challenge for blacks was to take on the theology of their captors all the while denying the theology of their liberators. Sherard wrote a chapter in the book "A God Entranced
Vision of All Things" titled "Trusting the Theology of a Slave Owner." that would be an interesting read.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by Presbyrino]


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## Bladestunner316 (Dec 29, 2005)

to Coleen when I was in elemantary school my friends were black and my best friend is filipino. 

blade


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## BrianBowman (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Brian Bowman:
> 
> Yep, I went to Piedmont Baptist College for one year in Winston-Salem....... never mix with the rabid Fundies! They're CRAZY I tell ya....CRAZY.
> ...



Trevor - we are quite a ways from Pisgah Forrest. Yep, rabid Fundies - don't even get me started. I once considered a distance seminary program from Pensacola Theological Seminary, until I heard one of their leaders make an evangelistic appeal based on "the sovereign free-will of man". This was the last straw that fell in my own Arminianism. Withing a few weeks I became a full-blown Five-Pointer.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BrianBowman_ I can really see why blacks, with their often exuberant worship styles would feel alienated in our predominately white Reformed Churches.
> 
> [Edited on 12-29-2005 by BrianBowman]



 I agree that we seem to insist upon a culturally "european" form of worship. One reason why the Reformed Bible Church helped me with my switch over...I was used to the worship style. The PCA church was singing songs that were very difficult for me to follow (the flow was uneven and sorry...but there was no rythymn to follow, I felt lost through half the music). The OPC we are in now, we expected the same out of, but suprisingly they mix the music, so it helps.


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## AdamM (Dec 29, 2005)

> I think just from a historical perspective alone, Reformed and Presbyterian Churches do not have a good reputation in the black community. A black pastor from Bethleham Baptist Church, Sherard Burns, did a great talk on the legacy of Johnathan Edwards in reference to the black community, at the Jonathan Edwards Conference a couple of years ago. It's been a couple of years, but if I can recall some of his points, he stated that Reformed/Presbyterian Churches have always had the correct biblical hermeneutic, but when it came to their relations to the black community, they (Reformed/Presbterian) adopted an inconsistent cultural hermeneutic. Reformed/Presbetrians churches always seemed to shy away or be silent on issues affecting the black community (slavery, civil rights, racism etc) . Sherard also said that, the challenge for blacks was to take on the theology of their captors all the while denying the theology of their liberators. Sherard wrote a chapter in the book "A God Entranced
> Vision of All Things" titled "Trusting the Theology of a Slave Owner." that would be an interesting read.



I agree. I have also had the pleasure of hearing Reverend Burns speak and he certainly has a message we need to hear today.

I also think the strong emphasis the Reformed have historically placed upon a formally educated clergy played a role in there being virtually no Reformed influence in the black community. If up until 50 years ago in many parts of the country it was nearly impossible for a black man, because of the color of his skin to attend a major university (not to mention our seminaries) then how were they supposed to get the credentials to be ordained in our denominations? Compare that to the Baptists and Methodists who would ordain a gifted man to the ministry even though he lacked a formal seminary eduction and I think it is one factor in how the Reformed lost the black community as well as much of country west of Ohio and Michigan.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> 
> 
> > I think just from a historical perspective alone, Reformed and Presbyterian Churches do not have a good reputation in the black community. A black pastor from Bethleham Baptist Church, Sherard Burns, did a great talk on the legacy of Johnathan Edwards in reference to the black community, at the Jonathan Edwards Conference a couple of years ago. It's been a couple of years, but if I can recall some of his points, he stated that Reformed/Presbyterian Churches have always had the correct biblical hermeneutic, but when it came to their relations to the black community, they (Reformed/Presbterian) adopted an inconsistent cultural hermeneutic. Reformed/Presbetrians churches always seemed to shy away or be silent on issues affecting the black community (slavery, civil rights, racism etc) . Sherard also said that, the challenge for blacks was to take on the theology of their captors all the while denying the theology of their liberators. Sherard wrote a chapter in the book "A God Entranced
> ...



Now, Adam, you are starting to sound like Gary North! 

And you will have Dr. Clark chastising you for suggesting that anyone should minister without an accredited academic degree from an established university.


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## AdamM (Dec 29, 2005)

Here's another thought..

Many of the churches, especially the ones with strong ethnic roots tend to not be focused on outreach. Perhaps some of it is caused by distorted covenant theology, but I think it's more a result of our struggling with the effects of remaining sin, where we are most comfortable with folks who surprise -- look and sound alot like we do. 

I once was a member of a church who had mainly members with a Dutch background. These were the nicest, most caring folks and they had a real sincere desire to please Christ in all of life. The problem was that they simply had no idea how to go about doing outreach. It wasn't that they didn't want to do it, but growing up in that environment it was not something they had any experience doing. (I often thought that if you could combine the passion for outreach that my Ev Free friends had with the truly faith nurturing environment of the small Reformed church that we were part of you would have an ideal situation.) 

I think some of that applies to the lack of African Americans in our congregations. We often speak about the need to be inclusive and to reach out to others who are different, but when push comes to shove folks on all sides default into a comfort zone where we feel the pull to hang with others who are the same race, age and economic status. It's a real problem and one we really need to praying to overcome, especially for the witness to our kids.


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## youthevang (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BrianBowman_ I can really see why blacks, with their often exuberant worship styles would feel alienated in our predominately white Reformed Churches.
> ...



My bachelor's degree is in church music and I have learned a lot in my own study of the different worship styles. I can understand why most black people may feel out of place in a worship setting that may be unfamiliar to them. But should a difference in worship style matter? I believe it is more of an educational issue. One must be educated in what are proper ways to approach God. There is only an audience of one in worship and He is the King who sits on the throne. In my humble opinion exuberance in worship is not really reverent. What does everyone else think?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

Joshua,

I'm not saying let's pull out the rock band...trust me. But sometimes I think there can be more than a monotone type singing. Sometimes, it's not even the music, but the ppl...they sing like they are scared. Singing with the children throughout the week helps them enjoy worship (we have endless requests from the kids during family devotions...LOL). Some of these ppl sing like they never sing unless they are being forced to and church forces them to. So maybe it's attitude? There are worshipful songs, there are songs to praise Him, there are songs that throw you to your knees (not suggesting this literally). I don't suggest that we run around the church and jiggle on the floor like the pentacostals do...but does it hurt to have a song make you cry or to make you actually feel worshipful...or are we all just practicing to get the notes right for heaven, KWIM?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

BTW, I agree, that there are other issues on why Reformed churches haven't made much headway into black communities. I was just agreeing with the one issue that had been stated at that time.


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## AdamM (Dec 29, 2005)

> Now, Adam, you are starting to sound like Gary North!



LOL! Excuse me while I clean the coffee off the monitor.

I'm not against academic credentials, but I do think when you look at why in our circles there is little influence in the African American community you can't ignore the fact up until 50 years ago it would have been virtually impossible for a black man to be ordained in our denominations. The reasoning behind having an educated clergy is good, but as with all actions, there are unindented consequences. 

For what it's worth, at my previous job, I worked alongside of very godly black man who was (is) a COGIC pastor, struggling in his "spare" time to get a church started in the most dangerous part of the city. What he lacked in any kind of formal theological training he made up for by knowing his Bible. I'm not setting formal training against Bible knowledge, but I think in our circles there needs to be a way for us to accommodate people like my friend. If the only answer is for him to go back and get a four year college degree and spend another four years in seminary, that's a non-answer. Or we're stuck with having to rationalize how God seems to mysteriously call mainly middle class white guys to be His pastors.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

This is frustrating for any truely "working class" citizen. I know a few men that have never been to seminary, but have a better understanding of theology and scripture than some men that have. It would be nice if seminaries didn't require 1) a four year previous degree in whatever and 2) didn't charge so much that many men with seminary degrees have to drop out of ministry to pay off their debt, let alone alot of men have trouble going if they already have families and a SAHW or a wife that can't earn enough to support them.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> 
> 
> > Now, Adam, you are starting to sound like Gary North!
> ...



Sorry, Adam, to make you make a mess!!






I actually think you are right (and so is North in this instance) about the need to accommodate the cultural difficulties involved. I am very much in favor of the movement that the PCA is starting in this area, while at the same time a proponent of an educated clergy.

I think that we also need to be willing to accommodate some differences in our own churches as well. For example, I would preach interrupted by "amens" and "preach it" if it meant that a number of African Americans would attend my church. I have had to do it - see my sermon on the 6th commandment on my webpage - and it is not easy. Worth it, but not easy.


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## crhoades (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> 
> 
> > Now, Adam, you are starting to sound like Gary North!
> ...



I think we are approaching the ability to receive seminary training without 4 year degrees etc. Check out this thread for a list of courses that can be listened to at home. Again, not to get into the certification or distance ed debate. Just saying that there are ways to get the 'teachin' without paying $1000 a class.

General question:

In theory...if a person could stand in front of presbytery for 12 hours fielding questions etc. including langauge requirements and do extremely well (defined as better than sem. grads)...would he be allowed to be ordained? Are we ordaining for degrees or trusting that they are a marker to show that they have acquired certain knowledge?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

Chris, I'm talking about enough training to make one acceptable for ordination into the ministry not just home edification. We spent a small fortune in books last year for that, but how does that help one who has had a heart for the ministry but has been prevented from simply due to finances?

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## crhoades (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Chris, I'm talking about enough training to make one acceptable for ordination into the ministry not just home edification.


These _are_ actual seminary courses taught by seminary profs. If they listened to the courses and read the material and wrote papers to be reviewed then I would see that as comparable. There are enough courses within the links to cover a complete seminary training. Oversight would be needed of course.



> We spent a small fortune in books last year for that, but how does that help one who has had a heart for the ministry but has been prevented from simply due to finances?


Definitely understand the small fortune part! In cases where finances play a part...This might be my idealism showing through but I would hope that if said person went to the session and expressed his desires the session would provide books and training to determine call and giftedness. If they determined that he was I would think that from within a presbytery there would be people willing to help fund their coursework. Plus there are grants and scholarships available. I guess what I'm saying is, in most cases I wouldn't think finances should be a problem. Again, might be idealistic and I'm sure there are exceptions.


[Edited on 12-29-2005 by crhoades]


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 29, 2005)

OK. Let's get back to the topic please. Have you read the book? If not, then please do not post on the thread  
If so, please explain your thoughts about it.


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## youthevang (Dec 29, 2005)

I've read it and believe it to be quite good. I especially like his fresh perspective of slavery in viewing it in light of God's providence, and he encourages our black brothers and sisters to join him in that perspective.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by youthevang_
> I've read it and believe it to be quite good. I especially like his fresh perspective of slavery in viewing it in light of God's providence, and he encourages our black brothers and sisters to join him in that perspective.



Sorry, I haven't read the book, but that comment intrests me. Being white I have only discussed my view on this with my mother and wife. I am curious to know if this author's views are the same as mine. Can you elaborate?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 29, 2005)

Yes, please elaborate...I apologize...I thought, mistakenly, that we were discussing the issues from the book, not just the book. (makes note to self to get the book)


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## youthevang (Dec 29, 2005)

Well, one of the questions Carter sought to answer in his book was Where was God in the Atlantic Slave Trade?

One quote from Carter is


> Yet the truth is that Reformed preaching is the best means for putting the African-American experience into historical as well as biblical context. pg 71



Also, Carter states,


> For example, the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty demands acceptance that the kidnapping and subsequent enslavement of Africans in America was according to [His] eternal and sovereign will. pg 87



When I first starting reading this book months ago, I began to discuss this book with some people in choir. (BTW our choir is predominately caucasian.) As I began to discuss this book, they were quite fascinated with the author's conclusions. They were also intrigued with Carter's fresh perspective. Carter, I believe mentions somewhere at the beginning of the book that the majority of African-Americans have the wrong perspective with regards to slavery. The majority of African-Americans must understand that all things were ordained by God even if we do not understand why.

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by youthevang]


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 29, 2005)

YES! That's exactly what I have believed for years, but do you know why? One of the most Godly men I know is an older black man. I often went to him for advice and prayer. He reminds me so much of my own grandfather who died years ago (almost 20 years ago).

One night it came to me that if not for the evil of slavery it may have been that I would have never met or known the man. That drove me into deeper prayer and bible study about it.

I have shared this thought with a few black children I worked with in the past when they were angry about slavery and it calmed them down and caused them to ponder. One young lady even got tears in her eyes and hugged me!


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## BobVigneault (Dec 29, 2005)

I particularly enjoyed his quoting of Carl Ellis Jr as he was contextualizing Van Til for the African American culture and language. He writes, 

(Commenting on the "I AM" of Ex. 3:14) "God was saying that his existence is the most obvious and fundamental thing in human experience. There can be no 'is' without God's 'is'; and since 'is' is, God is, because God is is... The only way anyone can declare that God "ain't'" is to declare that 'is' ain't. And if 'is' ain't, there never was a God "ain't" declaration in the first place." p.76

This jazz theology as Ellis calls it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from the baptist preacher Shadrach Meshach Lockridge on creation.

"œGod came from nowhere, for there was nowhere for Him to come from. And coming from nowhere, He stood on nothing for there was nowhere for Him to stand. And standing on nothing, He reached out where there was nowhere to reach and caught something where there was nothing to catch, and hung something on nothing, and told it to stay there."

That is rich!


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## turmeric (Dec 29, 2005)

RTS distance-learning has a thing where the church can put up part of the tuition and RTS knocks off a matching ammount, so you can end up only paying a third of the cost. Maybe an "accelerated" 2-year program could be designed for folks who have a basic good knowlege of the Bible, plus some experience, e.g, the COGIC guy, that would focus on systematic theology and/or be tailored to the student's particular needs. This way we could get some more educated black clergy on the ground planting churches, then we could have sister-churches that had joint activities and get to know each other.


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## py3ak (Dec 30, 2005)

I like that quote Bob --I'll have to keep it.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 30, 2005)

Didn't president Clinton have difficulty with the word is?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm just curious if any more folks have read this book yet. I know I posted this thread during the "holiday" break. I'm sure some folks are back now from vacation. Any more reflections and comments on this book?


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 23, 2006)

Related to this thread:
http://reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/?vobId=1966&pm=114

Also, Lig had blackpuritan.com listed, but at the time, the domain had expired. I called James up and let him know his domain was down, so it's back up now. Just waiting for the Alliance's blog to re-link to it.


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## ChristianTrader (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> I wonder what our black reformed brethren think of the oft-repeated instances of reformed churches and pastors romanticizing the Old South and the Confederacy - even from the pulpit.
> 
> 
> ...



Well there is a problem with romanticizing anything, because no time period or person was perfect. But there are many worse places to romanticize than the Old South and the Confederacy.


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