# Self-Esteem



## greenbaggins (Jul 28, 2017)

"The problem of self-esteem seems to be evergreen. There are those on the left who, like a broken record, will claim that almost all our problems are due to a low self-esteem. The solution seems to be that everyone should find a way to raise their own self-esteem, feel good about themselves, such that they will no longer feel depressed."

Full content posted over at GB.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Pergamum (Jul 28, 2017)

Thanks. Nice read.

I know people that like to go on and on about how depraved they are or how unholy they are. It seems like just so much pious talk. I ask, "How are you doing?" and they'll say something like, "Better than I deserve" and add, "we all deserve hell." True. But it gets old. 

Should believers primarily identify themselves as saints or sinners? It seems the Apostle Paul did speak of how sinful he was on occasion, but he addresses the churches as saints.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Jack K (Jul 29, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> Should believers primarily identify themselves as saints or sinners?



Believers should primarily identify as saints. This is not due to natural goodness, but due to being joined to Christ and to his work in us. The work of Christ always wins out over other realities. It is primary.

The article above dealt with the issue of our sinfulness vs. our creation in God's image. We might also consider the believer's re-creation in Christ, and how it too affects our view of ourselves. I like to call it "Christ-esteem." It's the confidence, courage, and security we get from knowing we are in Christ. It accomplishes everything the proponents of self-esteem wish for but fail to achieve.


----------



## Dachaser (Jul 29, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> Thanks. Nice read.
> 
> I know people that like to go on and on about how depraved they are or how unholy they are. It seems like just so much pious talk. I ask, "How are you doing?" and they'll say something like, "Better than I deserve" and add, "we all deserve hell." True. But it gets old.
> 
> Should believers primarily identify themselves as saints or sinners? It seems the Apostle Paul did speak of how sinful he was on occasion, but he addresses the churches as saints.


I think that "self esteem" derives for us now in our new identification in Christ, and realizing that he loves us and saved us. It is not that we were worthy in ourselves, as many say that it is, but that He died and saved us due to His great love for us despite what we were as sinners.


----------



## jw (Jul 29, 2017)

I appreciate Sibbes' pastoral direction. For example (Works, Vol. 1, pp. 28-29):

1. We must have two eyes, one to see imperfections in ourselves and others; the other to see what is good. _I am black_, saith the church, _but yet comely_. Those ever [lack] comfort, that are much in quarrelling with themselves, and through their infirmities are prone to feed upon such bitter things, as will most nourish that distemper they are sick of. These delight to be looking on the dark side of the cloud only.

2. We must not judge of ourselves always according to present feeling: for in temptations we shall see nothing but smoke of distrustful thoughts. Fire may be raked up in ashes, though not seen; life in the winter is hid in the root.

3. Take heed of false reasoning; as because our fire doth not blaze out like others, therefore we have no fire at all, and by false conclusions come to sin against the commandment in bearing false witness against ourselves. The prodigal would not say he was no son, but that he was not worthy to be _called_ a son. We must neither trust to false evidence, nor deny true; sot so we should dishonour the work of God’s Spirit in us, and lose the help of that evidence which would cherish our love to Christ, and arm us against Satan’s discouragements. Some are so faulty this way, as if they had been hired by satan the accuser of the brethren, to plead for him, in accusing themselves.

4. Know (for a ground of this) that in the covenant of grace, God requires the truth of grace, not any certain measure, and a spark of fire is [still] fire, as well as the whole element. Therefore we must look to grace in the spark as well as in the flame. All have not the like strong, yet the like precious faith, whereby they lay hold, and put on the perfect righteousness of Christ.— A weak hand may receive a rich jewel; a few grapes will shew that that the plant is a vine, and not a thorn. It is one thing to be wanting in grace, and another thing to want grace altogether. God knoweth we have nothing of ourselves, therefore in the covenant of grace he requireth no more than he giveth, and giveth what he requireth, and accepteth what he giveth.​

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## jw (Jul 29, 2017)

For what it's worth, I am one of those who often answers "Better than I deserve," but it has nothing to do with my self-esteem. My reasons:

1. It is _*always*_ true, and -regardless of how I feel- I am not lying to someone who asks me.
2. It usually opens up interesting conversations regard just desserts, grace, judgment, and mercy.
3. It is _*always*_ true.​


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Jul 29, 2017)

I was reared in a rather dysfunctional Calvinistic baptist church in which it was common to speak of oneself in the worst of ways (as Lane and others above mention). On a theoretical level, these dear folks regularly acknowledged how sinful they were. 

I say theoretical because, on a practical level, if you confronted anyone with sin (we were especially guilty of those sins associated with censoriousness), these same dear folk customarily fought you tooth and nail over it. In other words, we were the biggest theoretical sinners extant (and despised self-esteem in any form), but were quick to plead "not guilty" when confronted with particular actual sin. 

It's not a phenomenon that I have never witnessed again (we all tend to it in the flesh), to be sure, but not so strikingly as I did in that church. I suppose all this is to say that professions of abject sin (which have an important place that is sadly missing these days) do not guarantee that one is prepared, as WCF 15.5 says, to repent of one's particular sins particularly. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Herald (Jul 29, 2017)

Alan,

I am keenly aware of my sin, but I am not wont to wear it as a badge of honor. I am ashamed of it, for sure, but thankful that it has been paid for at the Cross. In a strange sort of way, there is a pride that comes from poor self-esteem. You see this in people who rejoice in the failure of others. If they cannot lift themselves up, they have a perverted joy in seeing others fail. I pray that God grants all of us a right view of ourselves; not in competition with each other, but so that we know which sinful areas of our lives need to be mortified.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Jul 29, 2017)

Amen, Brother Bill! May God grant you and all the brethren here a blessed Lord's Day.

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Pergamum (Jul 30, 2017)

This is a great thread. I know people from church when I was growing up who regularly had a "woe is me, I am a terrible worm" attitude. It is really off-putting. As if true belief makes one into a depressive. Where's the joy and the happiness over a changed life? They often quote Paul and (after the manner of Paul) assert that they are the very worst of sinners. I just try to ignore it or say, "Okay, you ARE pretty bad."

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ZackF (Jul 30, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> This is a great thread. I know people from church when I was growing up who regularly had a "woe is me, I am a terrible worm" attitude. It is really off-putting. As if true belief makes one into a depressive. Where's the joy and the happiness over a changed life? They often quote Paul and (after the manner of Paul) assert that they are the very worst of sinners. I just try to ignore it or say, "Okay, you ARE pretty bad."



Be sure that you recognize them for their humility and give them the opportunity to deny such lest you the cause them to stumble!


----------



## bookslover (Jul 30, 2017)

It's interesting that the Bible assumes that we all love ourselves: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


----------



## OPC'n (Jul 30, 2017)

I have found in myself that the problem of constant sayings of "woe, is me I'm a poor worm" is that one's eyes are still fully on self. Either pride of "lowly " state arises or despondency arises keeping me from rejoicing in God's grace. I'm learning that security lies in rejoicing in the knowledge that no one is able to do good accept Christ works it in a person, and that he wants and wills to do that good work.


----------



## Jack K (Jul 30, 2017)

Right. The more we look at Christ, the more inclined we are to see our lives as victorious _in him_.

But... repentance takes many shapes and each of us is in a different place along the path to glory. So I try not to be too critical of those who emphasize their sin. Some of us, at some times, really need to repent of our pride and come to grips with our sinfulness, so that looking at Christ may bring a perfectly appropriate sorrow over sin that for a season looks rather self-abasing. Others of us need to stop our woeful introspection and raise our heads to find joy and confidence in the fact we belong to Jesus. Most of us, in fact, could use some of both.


----------



## OPC'n (Jul 30, 2017)

Yes, everyone is different and at different places in their life which is why i only talked about myself in what i said


----------



## Jack K (Jul 30, 2017)

OPC'n said:


> Yes, everyone is different and at different places in their life which is why i only talked about myself in what i said



Yet I think that what you said was spot on, and helpful to most believers.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 30, 2017)

bookslover said:


> It's interesting that the Bible assumes that we all love ourselves: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


I have a problem with the term of self love and self esteem. Not that they can be interpreted correctly or incorrectly. Self is a reality. Love is a reality. Esteem or treasuring something is a reality. All of those things are real and important. But I think it is more important to focus on dignity. When a person makes their life centered upon self something is amiss and a fallen man has a false understanding of his image. It can be from one end of the spectrum of self loathing depression to the other end of being a demigod where all things and everyone is made to serve your lusts and whims.

Something that has kept me focused is seeing that all things come to me from outside of me. Even my self. It comes from God. All things come from outside of me. I might be mistaken because he has placed some truths in me like his Law but even that comes from outside of me even though he placed it in me. He has given and proven my dignity based upon His person and work. I also think we are to protect that dignity in the best possible way we can by trying to understand it and loving God.

I love Jeremiah Burroughs on that.
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/the-great-honor-that-god-puts-upon-human-nature/



> Portions of Gospel Conversation by Jeremiah Burroughs
> 
> There’s nothing in the world that God ever did that reveals the worth of man’s immortal soul as the gospel of Jesus Christ does. There God manifests to all the world what a price He puts upon Man’s soul.
> p. 119
> ...


----------



## Pergamum (Jul 30, 2017)

ZackF said:


> Be sure that you recognize them for their humility and give them the opportunity to deny such lest you the cause them to stumble!


I am not sure it is humility. If it is possible, they almost seem to boast of it.


----------



## mvdm (Jul 31, 2017)

"God commands us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought, but to think with sober judgment. Sober judgment also entails not thinking more lowly of ourselves than is true. This may be counterintuitive, especially to many in the Reformed church, who sort of feel that the more evil, wicked, disgraceful, and grotesque they are, the closer they are to the Kingdom. We have to be careful, as we may in fact be saying things about ourselves that God does not." ~ Mark Jones' lecture "Does God Reward Our Good Works? Or How Not to Be an Antinomian"

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Steve Curtis (Jul 31, 2017)

_Simul Justus et Peccator._

A proper apprehension of both realities is essential to understanding - and expressing to others - who we are (and how we see ourselves). The former testifies to God's grace; the latter, to our desperate need for it.


----------



## reaganmarsh (Jul 31, 2017)

Joshua said:


> I appreciate Sibbes' pastoral direction. For example (Works, Vol. 1, pp. 28-29):
> 
> 4. Know (for a ground of this) that in the covenant of grace, God requires the truth of grace, not any certain measure, and a spark of fire is [still] fire, as well as the whole element. Therefore we must look to grace in the spark as well as in the flame. All have not the like strong, yet the like precious faith, whereby they lay hold, and put on the perfect righteousness of Christ.— A weak hand may receive a rich jewel; a few grapes will shew that that the plant is a vine, and not a thorn. It is one thing to be wanting in grace, and another thing to want grace altogether. God knoweth we have nothing of ourselves, therefore in the covenant of grace he requireth no more than he giveth, and giveth what he requireth, and accepteth what he giveth.​



This is absolutely lovely. Thanks, Joshua.


----------



## Pilgrim (Jul 31, 2017)

greenbaggins said:


> "The problem of self-esteem seems to be evergreen. There are those on the left who, like a broken record, will claim that almost all our problems are due to a low self-esteem. The solution seems to be that everyone should find a way to raise their own self-esteem, feel good about themselves, such that they will no longer feel depressed."
> 
> Full content posted over at GB.



I'm not sure this is correct unless you're working with some non-standard definition of self-esteem or non-standard definition of "the left."

Those on the left (both politically and theologically) tend to blame societal factors such as poverty, greedy capitalists, structural racism or whatever and argue that this needs to be remedied by government action in order for those who are failing or disadvantaged to succeed. No amount of self-esteem is going to help many of the disadvantaged in the eyes of the left. (It takes a village to raise a child, you didn't build that business, etc.)

On the other hand, a strong emphasis on self-esteem is a staple of an industry that is typically associated with right wing political causes, or at the least not typically left wing. (Norman Vincent Peale, W. Clement Stone, a major Nixon donor who gave him much money that it provoked campaign finance legislation, Robert Schuller, and arguably James Dobson, Tim LaHaye and other evangelicals to a slightly lesser extent, etc.) It also has a lot of overlap with Word Faith type charismaticism. It is a common theme in sales training.

A strong emphasis on self esteem is really another way of saying you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, that if you just have the proper attitude, success will follow and you can literally ordain your destiny. That's not associated with any kind of left wing point of view in the way that the term is used by practically everyone. It has more in common with Ayn Rand's objectivism than it does with anything on the left unless we're going to say that any kind of unbiblical view is "leftist." Rand's erstwhile associate, Nathaniel Branden, was a big promoter of it in the psychology "space."

Needless to say the modern self-esteem movement (which often at least gives Christianity a nod, although Napoleon Hill at one point compared Islam favorably to Christianity!) is shot through with damnable heresy and a ready rebuke is required. (The recent phenomenon "The Secret" was the latest manifestation. It is merely a rehash of the New Thought teaching popularized by so many others in the early-mid 20th Century.)

When you use the term self-esteem, it cannot be divorced from that movement and the self-help industry as a whole, even if you're wanting to zero in on some overreaction in the Calvinist or conservative evangelical subculture. That one can overreact to one error and fall into some other error is obvious, just as you can overreact to Arminianism by slipping into hyper-Calvinism or overreact to Romanism by accepting the arguments of the SDAs (or some other cult) or overreact to attacks on Christ's divinity and inadvertently neglect or diminish his humanity and so on.

Although I've had the book for years, I haven't read Dr. Richard Pratt's "Designed for Dignity" but I have wondered if perhaps he wasn't subtly pushing back against what he saw as an overreaction against the modern self-help movement making inroads into evangelicalism. But many reprobate any talk of "self-image," in some cases perhaps rightly so, at least insofar as some of those teaching it go astray on some issue or another. Francis Schaeffer spoke much of the dignity of man, but that was in the context of dehumanizing trends in the academy and the culture, such as the teaching of B.F. Skinner.

Is there anything objectionable in Jay Adams' "Biblical View of Self-Esteem, Self-Love and Self-Image?" If so, I doubt he overreacts to the extent that he ends up in the kind of mindset described by Dr. Strange and Pergamum. Adams is not a huge fan of the Puritans (particularly certain ones) but it is an easy choice between Adams and Dobson, LaHaye (not to mention Schuller) and other pop evangelical promoters of self-esteem and similar things.


----------



## Jack K (Aug 7, 2017)

I like Josh's quote from Sibbes. It reminds me of what Sibbes said in _The Bruised Reed_—that God gives us small beginnings to keep us humble, but if this leads to discouragement we should consider how Christ sees us. "Christ values us by what we shall be, and what we are elected unto. We call a little plant a tree, because it is growing up to be so" (p. 17 in the Banner of Truth paperback).


----------

