# Notre Dame



## Joseph Scibbe (May 8, 2011)

Must one be Catholic to attend the University of Notre Dame? I am looking at different schools to study literature/English and education. Any other suggestions would be helpful. I am looking for something Midwest or New England and big. I would like to have a school that has graduate degrees available. Not really too hung up on whether they are a Christian college or not (either are welcome of course).


----------



## Philip (May 8, 2011)

Unashamed 116 said:


> Must one be Catholic to attend the University of Notre Dame?



You don't even have to be Catholic to be on faculty there (Alvin Plantinga wasn't: Peter Van Inwagen isn't). I'm actually starting to think in that direction for grad school.


----------



## Rufus (May 8, 2011)

I've talked to a catholic seminarian before and he said that catholic schools have a generally better education because there not usually looking for your money compared to a secular school. Would you have to attend mass or is even that optional?


----------



## CharlieJ (May 8, 2011)

Many of the Catholic schools are good places to get a humanities/liberal-arts/traditional-classical education. They have maintained a tighter bond with tradition than have the liberal Protestant schools, and they tend to have greater resources and prestige than evangelical schools. 

However, I strongly suggest you reconsider majoring in English. English is the kooky catch-all major of the liberal arts. All sorts of "progressive," off-the-wall educational ideas are the norm in English/lit departments. Education is not much better. If you want a real grounding in the liberal arts, then classics, history, humanities and philosophy are all better choices.


----------



## Kevin (May 8, 2011)

No. A friend of mine did an MA & a PhD there.


----------



## seajayrice (May 8, 2011)

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
Groucho Marx


----------



## ClayPot (May 8, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> However, I strongly suggest you reconsider majoring in English. English is the kooky catch-all major of the liberal arts. All sorts of "progressive," off-the-wall educational ideas are the norm in English/lit departments. Education is not much better. If you want a real grounding in the liberal arts, then classics, history, humanities and philosophy are all better choices.



I have to agree with Charlie on this one about not majoring in English. The knowledge obtained is certainly valuable, but jobwise, you are setting yourself up for failure. Really. I am a university professor, and I have been shocked at home many instructors (not professors) in English departments are PhDs, toiling away for a few thousand dollars per class, simply because they can't find other jobs. Though knowledgeable, they don't get a lot of skills that translate to employability in the real world.


----------



## Joseph Scibbe (May 8, 2011)

As a hopeful English teacher, in what would you suggest I major? The best out of what I see you posted would be Major in Classics and minor in Communication. Any ideas?


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

Why don't you go to Purdue or Indiana instead?


----------



## MLCOPE2 (May 9, 2011)

Osage Bluestem said:


> Purdue



I can second that one! (*hint: I live in the heart of Boiler country!)

David,

Are you from Indiana?


----------



## CharlieJ (May 9, 2011)

Well, if your heart is set on teaching English (on the high school level?), then you simply make the best of it. Most often, you would major in English or something similar, then get a M.S. in Ed. or, probably better, an MAT (Master of Arts in Teaching). 

Definitely check out the school's department to make sure you won't just spend four years awash in a sea of post-liberalism, post-colonialism, post-structuralism, post-reading, post-grammar, and post-education.

If you want to teach English on the college level, just .... don't. Find a more secure career, like shark wrestling.


----------



## Philip (May 9, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Definitely check out the school's department to make sure you won't just spend four years awash in a sea of post-liberalism, post-colonialism, post-structuralism, post-reading, post-grammar, and post-education.



Charlie, in all fairness, this is good stuff to be aware of and engage with and even learn from. I spent a while with this stuff in a continental philosophy course and it actually made certain things clearer.


----------



## J. Dean (May 9, 2011)

Bah. Go to the University of Michigan. Everybody knows you look better in maize and blue.

Plus, our football coach doesn't wear a vest


----------



## Galatians220 (May 9, 2011)

Having gotten, for my first degree, a double major in history and English, I would not do it over again, not without a business and ed minor and/or just planning on a master's from the start. The second degree, in legal administration and with some post-grad studies, made a "career" for me.

About Notre Dame: I was just there several weeks ago because I was invited to serve as a judge in the Regional (Midwest) Mock Trial Tournament hosted by the American Mock Trial Association. I had an absolute blast doing this. It was great to meet other legal professionals and especially those in the Indiana state bar, and also to help the students who were deciding to go to law school. The ND staff couldn't have been nicer. The city of South Bend, however, is in rather sad shape. I'd been there about 10 years ago and then, it was thriving and vibrant. It's been hit hard by the economic travails of the last few years. It's obviously not suffering as much as Flint or Detroit, but still, I was surprised.

ND is only nominally Catholic. It looks great on anyone's resume, in my opinion, but so do a lot of other schools. (I've occasionally had to go through stacks of resumes submitted for legal positions to decide who would be interviewed, and first looked at alma maters... A Notre Dame grad would make it to the second level; a Michigan State grad would not...   )


----------



## CharlieJ (May 9, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> > Definitely check out the school's department to make sure you won't just spend four years awash in a sea of post-liberalism, post-colonialism, post-structuralism, post-reading, post-grammar, and post-education.
> ...



Sure. I'm hardly against learning from others. I'm doing a Master's in theology at a Roman Catholic university. But all the people I know who are doing grad work in English tell me that an English undergrad degree at anything other than a very conservative school is an exercise in frustration. There are simply no boundaries. Studying those -isms in a philosophy department is very different than spending several years studying English literature _through_ them. It's one thing to recognize deconstructionism, another to practice it. 

One problem with English departments is the breadth of the subject area and lack of methodological boundaries. You may end up studying the theme of alienation in teen vampire novels or class warfare in animal fiction. What you actually do is quite dependent on the interests of the professors, so you either research your department thoroughly or take a gamble. 

Joseph, there are good English programs out there, if you look for them. It might make sense to at least consider some related majors - journalism, communications, writing. All of these mesh nicely with an English minor, prepare for a MAT in English, and offer career fallback opportunities should teaching not work out.


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

MLCOPE2 said:


> Osage Bluestem said:
> 
> 
> > Purdue
> ...



I'm from Oklahoma originally. I'm a big Sooner fan. I live in Texas now though.


----------



## Joseph Scibbe (May 9, 2011)

I am an Illinois resident so I am planning on attending a school there when I leave the Army. If I leave the state, however, I want to go to a school who has a name that has a "punch".

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------




J. Dean said:


> Bah. Go to the University of Michigan. Everybody knows you look better in maize and blue.
> 
> Plus, our football coach doesn't wear a vest


 
I am going to fight you now


----------



## Philip (May 9, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> It's one thing to recognize deconstructionism, another to practice it.



Indeed: one is academic and the other is fun. There is a definite time and place for deconstruction.


----------



## MLCOPE2 (May 9, 2011)

Osage Bluestem said:


> MLCOPE2 said:
> 
> 
> > Osage Bluestem said:
> ...


 
Ah. Just curious about your Purdue recommendation. It's not a university that's name is thrown around a lot on here so I thought you might be a fellow hoosier (but I'll forgive you for not being )


----------



## he beholds (May 9, 2011)

Unashamed 116 said:


> As a hopeful English teacher, in what would you suggest I major? The best out of what I see you posted would be Major in Classics and minor in Communication. Any ideas?


 
I did English Ed Bachelors Degree because I knew from the start that I wanted to teach Secondary English. My husband didn't know what he wanted to do, so he majored in English and History. Two useless Bachelors degrees. When he decided he wanted to teach h.s. English, he _had_ to get a Master's in English Ed. That had some pros: during undergrad at a great but not highly reputable Reformed Presbyterian Christian school, where the types of teachers really count, he got a more thorough English education (we went to the same college and I know that he took more and cooler English classes while I had to have room to also take pointless education classes--mind you, he did have to take these same pointless ones in Grad school). Then he went to grad school at a Catholic University--though I have no idea how prestigious it is or isn't. But it is a bigger name than our undergrad--so may have helped with his finding a job.

It took him the 4 years of undergrad plus 2-3 years of grad (already married at this point, so wasn't full-time every semester--think about that, too. Will you be married in the next 6 years?) to get the same certification that I got in 4.5 years. But his was with a Masters which is more marketable. Plus makes more money. But how many years will it take for the extra two grand or so you'd receive/year for having a Masters actually pay for the Masters? 

Also, if you got English Ed Bachelors and got a job, many schools pay for some grad credits. So you could work on a Masters with the help of the school, who;d then possibly pay you more for having that masters.

Anyway, in my opinion, the bottom line is time. If you don't care about being in school for six years, shooting for a Masters is fine. But if you know now that what you want to do you can do with a Bachelors, as long as you get the right one (English Ed), then maybe just take that route. I think my husband wishes he would have just thrown education into the mix in undergrad--though his Masters was paid for by his job at the time (Ikea, oddly enough). So the money and the timing was fine, but he could have potentially had three extra years of full-time salary if he taught right out of undergrad.

If this is convoluted, my apologies! I have a throbbing earache and it's messing with my thinking abilities : )


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 9, 2011)

Unashamed 116 said:


> I am an Illinois resident so I am planning on attending a school there when I leave the Army. If I leave the state, however, I want to go to a school who has a name that has a "punch".




Well, for all things football, I recommend Oklahoma 

If you are limited to school in Illinois what about Northwestern?


----------



## Joseph Scibbe (May 9, 2011)

Actually, I think UofI looks pretty good. What about linguistics and a minor in Ed and Communication? Linguistics seems to be a bit more "respectable" than English. Any suggestions?

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------

And by UofI I mean the University of Illinois...which happens to have the largest public academic library in the country (and maybe the world but I am not totally sure.


----------



## he beholds (May 9, 2011)

Unashamed 116 said:


> Actually, I think UofI looks pretty good. What about linguistics and a minor in Ed and Communication? Linguistics seems to be a bit more "respectable" than English. Any suggestions?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------
> 
> And by UofI I mean the University of Illinois...which happens to have the largest public academic library in the country (and maybe the world but I am not totally sure.


 
I think in most states if you want to teach English, you have to have a degree in English (Lit, Language, Composition...the stuff you'd be teaching). Then you have to take Praxis test(s) in the same subject matter. The English Praxis tests are easy, but I'm guessing that's largely due to the fact that I was trained in Lit, Lang. and Composition in order to be an English major. Linguistics would no doubt help you be a good teacher, but I don't think it would help you get certified. 

In some states, I think, communication is a certifiable subject, enabling you to teach Speech class. So if you aren't interested in teaching literature and writing, that could probably work. In other states, an English Ed certificate enables you to teach speech. I don't know if an ed. minor would be enough to allow you to be certified. 

In some states, once you have one certificate, it is easy to add "endorsements" by taking further Praxis exams. So if you wanted to teach history but were certified in English, you could take the required Praxis tests (varies by states...huge money maker). You'd then be "qualified" to also teach history. I don't know of a secondary education certificate in linguistics. I've also never checked! But I've never seen "Must have linguistics certificate in order to apply." You could pick a specifc language that you'd like to teach and major/minor in that, then take the Praxis for that. It's all about the Praxis. That's the key to being certified. Being certified is the key to getting applications even looked at.


----------



## Edward (May 9, 2011)

If you want to teach English at the secondary level, major in Education. You'll need that for certification unless you go the alternative cert. route. (Around here, there's much more demand for science and math teachers than for English). If you want to teach English in college, learn a trade to fall back on. Unless you get a Ph.D. from a top school and establish good liberal credentials, I wouldn't hold out much hope, unless you want to go to China.


----------



## Philip (May 9, 2011)

Edward said:


> Unless you get a Ph.D. from a top school and establish good liberal credentials, I wouldn't hold out much hope, unless you want to go to China.



Or to a small Christian liberal arts school.


----------

