# Posture in prayer



## Scott Bushey (Aug 7, 2005)

Does anyone have any idea where the norm, i.e. hands clasped, eye's shut, originated?


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## RamistThomist (Aug 7, 2005)

I read somewhere that the "sitting" posture was used only once in scripture.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 7, 2005)

Prostrate, kneeling, sitting! But where does the folding of hands and closing of the eye's come from. My guess is that it is of pagan origin.

[Edited on 8-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## re4md (Aug 7, 2005)

I'm wondering if it originated with Finney's "sawdust trail" "Every head is bowed, every eye is closed."

Invitations like this are thought to give the evangelist a "physical indication of the Spirit working."

Hands clasped might come from the familiar Albrecht Durer painting.

http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/print...Y=albrecht durer praying hands&OVMTC=standard


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## Laura (Aug 7, 2005)

Interesting question. It's always bugged me when pastors command the congregation to close their eyes and bow their heads. If that's what you prefer, then great - but as for me, my contacts get rather uncomfortable if I close my eyes for too long.


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## RamistThomist (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Laura_
> Interesting question. It's always bugged me when pastors command the congregation to close their eyes and bow their heads. If that's what you prefer, then great - but as for me, my contacts get rather uncomfortable if I close my eyes for too long.



I always try to look around wiht my eyes while my head is bowed, especially during the altar call. Sometimes you can tell that they are lying on how many converts: like, if nobody is raising their hand but they are saying, "Thank you, thank you; that's another one."


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## Puritanhead (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Laura_
> Interesting question. It's always bugged me when pastors command the congregation to close their eyes and bow their heads. If that's what you prefer, then great - but as for me, my contacts get rather uncomfortable if I close my eyes for too long.




I am not for putting people on the spot, or trying to embarrass them by any means, but with some preachers it is as though they think they can seduce people into believing the Gospel with a torrent of emotional organ playing or prayer-- "with every head bowed and every eye shut" -- _God works in his perfect timing..._


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## LawrenceU (Aug 7, 2005)

Jacob, surely you're kidding! I confronted a pastor about this once. He said, 'Oh, I was thanking God for the work he was doing invisibly in hearts.' I was torn between punching him and puking. So, I just walked away.


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## Laura (Aug 7, 2005)

> I always try to look around wiht my eyes while my head is bowed, especially during the altar call. Sometimes you can tell that they are lying on how many converts: like, if nobody is raising their hand but they are saying, "Thank you, thank you; that's another one."


Ahh, yes, I remember that being one of the most entertaining parts of Baptist youth camp...though I never caught anybody lying.



> I am not for putting people on the spot, or trying to embarrass them by any means, but with some preachers it is as though they think they can seduce people into believing the Gospel with a torrent of emotional organ playing or prayer...


Organ playing? Hahaha. Now it's more like crescendoing guitar riffs and constipated-sounding singers chanting nonsense about being addicted to Jesus...


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## Puritanhead (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Laura_
> ...



Well, I used to be a _bad boy_ in college-- when they would announce altar calls-- i would raise my hand and never come up... and than the preacher would prolong his service, sometimes with music playing on and on and would eventually resort to begging that "young man" (whoever he might be) to come up-- while "every eye was still closed and every head was bowed"... I just got irked at the number of altar calls, and the theology behind it's misuse, and the nature of some evangelism messages. 

Please don't scold me for this. *I stopped doing such mischevious things by the way... it's not right whether you have a problem with how altar calls are used these days or not.*

I opted to preach the Gospel myself-- rather than be a cynic about the modus operandi of your average Bible belt preacher. I tried to apply a doctrinally sound Gospel message and work on my Gospel presentation, and I did tent preaching in outreach efforts on several occasions.... I disliked the activities of some groups I evangelized with-- where they would put so much emphasis on getting them to sign a card that they would negate the presentation of their Gospel message. I really want to continue to grow in how I approach evangelism. Evangelism is also living the Word-- which I've fallen short of at times.

D. James Kennedy's _Evangelism Explosion_ is helpful. We should never treat Gospel preaching like it's some sort of seduction game, or selling insurance-- we have to fine-tune our Gospel message and be faithful to the Word and get beyond shallow seductive evangelism!... I hope I can become a more powerful evangelist-- I haven't been as diligent as I should be this past year...


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 7, 2005)

<Stay on topic>

Ok, so if clasping one's hands and closing one's eye's are not biblical commands, should we do it? Christ was specific in _how_ we should pray.

These guys prayed standing:

Mat 6:5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they* love to stand and pray* in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.

Jesus mentions an _inner chamber_ and that we should go into it!

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, *enter into thine inner chamber*, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. 

It looks like a physical location, not the closing of the eye's and creating a place.

Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 

Prostrate:

Mat 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." 

G5009
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tam-i'-on
Neuter contraction of a presumed derivative of Ï„Î±Î¼Î¹ÌÎ±Ï‚ tamias (a dispenser or distributor; akin to Ï„ÎµÌÎ¼Î½Ï‰ temnoÌ„, to cut); a dispensary or magazine, that is, a chamber on the ground floor or interior of an Oriental house (generally used for storage or privacy, a spot for retirement): - secret chamber, closet, storehouse.

I cannot find anything biblical about the typical posture of believers today. I don't believe closing your eye's and clasping the hands is sinful; unless of course it has pagan roots. Now, if we cannot rule out the pagan influence, in light of the biblical truths, should we do it? In other words, if there is a posibility that it has pagan roots, would it be sinful to utilize it in such a high calling as prayer?



[Edited on 8-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Craig (Aug 7, 2005)

I don't see a problem with closing your eyes and clasping your hands...unless you're driving at the time.

If my eyes are open, I'm easily distracted. Perhaps it's just that is how I was always instructed to pray. 

In any event, what makes you suspect it's of pagan origin?


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> I don't see a problem with closing your eyes and clasping your hands...unless you're driving at the time.
> 
> If my eyes are open, I'm easily distracted. Perhaps it's just that is how I was always instructed to pray.
> ...



Hi Craig,
Mainly because I don't see any biblical command or implication. I was thinking about it today and what we actually do when we all get together; everyone closes their eye's and fondly clasp their hands. It struck me sort of strange.

[Edited on 8-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Peter (Aug 7, 2005)

closing your eyes is a good practice in prayer b/c it removes external distractions


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## Arch2k (Aug 7, 2005)

It's interesting how Christ looked to the heavens when he prayed. I also believe that David did the same (can't remember for sure with him though).

I think that posture is a circumstance of worship and is abused when certain postures are commanded.


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## Arch2k (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> closing your eyes is a good practice in prayer b/c it removes external distractions



This is just fine, and very good for some people, but for me, I often like to stare and the floor or at the ceiling. My mind often tends to drift when my eyes are closed (daydream).


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## gwine (Aug 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> I read somewhere that the "sitting" posture was used only once in scripture.



2Sa 7:18 Then King David went in, sat in the Lord's presence, and said, "Who am I, Lord God, and what is my house that You have brought me this far?


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## gwine (Aug 7, 2005)

And why didn't I think about my own signature line?

Psalm 95
6 Oh come, let us worship and *bow down*; let us *kneel before the LORD*, our Maker!
7 For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.

Perhaps some postures are meant to acknowledge our Lord and Savior.


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## Puddleglum (Aug 8, 2005)

What about 1 Tim 2:8? ("I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands . . . ")


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## SRoper (Aug 8, 2005)

Isn't the "folding of hands" a sign of laziness?


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## just_grace (Aug 8, 2005)

*Camel knees...*

In antiquity, James the just was known as 'old camel knees' because he apparently spent so much time in prayer as such.

Great point Scott, I have often wondered.


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## Robin (Aug 9, 2005)

What about the CONTENT prayer? The attitude; understanding; heart; mind of it? Isn't that more important?

(Scott, I know you were trying to discover another thing...sorry for interrupting...)



Robin


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## cupotea (Aug 9, 2005)

Scott, feel free to move this. I imagine it'll get a brief answer, that's why I figured it wasn't worth starting a new thread, but it's up to you.



> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> I always try to look around wiht my eyes while my head is bowed, especially during the altar call. Sometimes you can tell that they are lying on how many converts: like, if nobody is raising their hand but they are saying, "Thank you, thank you; that's another one."



Um, what's altar call?

At all of the churches I've been to, the minister just says, "Let's pray" and gives thanks, asks for forgiveness of sins, etc. (in fact, it took a while before I realized I was supposed to clasp my hands and close my eyes. If I recall correctly, it was _The Simpsons_ who taught me. I believe in one episode, Lisa rats on Bart for not closing his eyes during a prayer, and when I saw that I thought, I'm supposed to close my eyes?!). So what's this "converts" business?


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## Laura (Aug 17, 2005)

Aha...

Nehemiah 8:5-6

5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people, and as he opened it all the people stood. 6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God, and all the people answered, "œAmen, Amen," lifting up their hands. And *they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.*


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## biblelighthouse (Aug 17, 2005)

"Daniel . . . went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem; and he *got down upon his knees* three times a day and *prayed* and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously." (Daniel 6:10)


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## biblelighthouse (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cottonball_
> Scott, feel free to move this. I imagine it'll get a brief answer, that's why I figured it wasn't worth starting a new thread, but it's up to you.
> 
> 
> ...



The altar call was started by the like of heretics like Charles Finney. And sadly, very many churches still do altar calls today. They are common in Arminian churches (except for perhaps Methodist churches).

Here is a helpful article regarding "altar calls":

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/ecclesiology/altar.htm


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## Augusta (Aug 17, 2005)

Here is a catacombs picture of a woman praying with eyes closed and hands lifted.






Of course maybe the carver just couldn't do eyes.


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## biblelighthouse (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> the only posture that matters is the posture of your heart



Maybe so, but if you don't pray with good posture, you'll get back problems.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> the only posture that matters is the posture of your heart
> 
> [Edited on 8-17-2005 by Paul manata]



This may be true Paul, however, there are biblical _postures_ that were taken during prayer. If they (the saints, apostles and Jesus) thought them important, should not we?

[Edited on 8-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## biblelighthouse (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> ...



Good point . . . it comes to mind how often God rebuked people for being "stiffnecked" . . . just thinking about it makes me want to bow my head before the Lord.


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## brymaes (Aug 17, 2005)

> This may be true Paul, however, there are biblical postures that were taken during prayer. If they (the saints, apostles and Jesus) thought them important, should not we?



This assumes that because a naritave describes a certain posture that the saint, apostle, etc. actually considered it important. One would be _really_ hard pressed to see those naratives as being prescriptive...


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SharperSword_
> 
> 
> > This may be true Paul, however, there are biblical postures that were taken during prayer. If they (the saints, apostles and Jesus) thought them important, should not we?
> ...




SS, I agree; I am not saying they are _prescriptive_.
Obviously, previous saints saw it as a posture of honor:


The Psalmist writes:

Psa 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker! 

Psa 138:2 I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

Jos 5:14 And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" 

Job 1:20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.

Dan 6:10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.

Act 21:5 When our days there were ended, we departed and went on our journey, and they all, with wives and children, accompanied us until we were outside the city. And kneeling down on the beach, we prayed 

Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, 

etc. etc.

Originally, I was questioning certain postures that contemporary Christians take: folding hands, closing eyes....


[Edited on 8-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## brymaes (Aug 17, 2005)

> I'm not saying that we should be irreverent when we pray, indeed, we should bow when we come into the presence of a king, how much more, *the* King.
> 
> I think "bowing a head" is an ancient sign of respect. I'm not sure about the clasping of hands. People have clasped hands for thousands of years when pleading with someone, maybe that's where it comes from. But, the heart is what's important, not the posture *per se.*


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