# Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?



## JBaldwin (Mar 16, 2008)

I have been thinking about wealth and the reformed church, as it is now (compared to the days of the apostles and the days of the reformers). In my experience, there are a lot more wealthy (and well-educated) people in reformed churches than there are those of the lower, less-educated people. Is this a misconception? Is it something that is restricted to my part of the country? If, indeed, the reformed church has a higher percentage of wealthy, educated people than poor, uneducated people, why is that so? 

Also, in my experience, folks who are well off in the reformed church tend to snub their noses at the lower, uneducated in the church. Keep in mind that my experience in the reformed church is restricted to one part of the country where financial status and education determines who you associate with. 

When I look at the apostles, I see a mixed bag of folks. On the one hand, you have well-educated Paul, on the other hand, you have poor, uneducated Peter. Status and education made no difference. 

Take this a step further. Does the reformed church (as a whole) welcome or shun the poorer, uneducated classes? If they shun them, what should we do about it?


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## Pilgrim (Mar 16, 2008)

This is a stereotype that is true in some cases but not others.


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## greenbaggins (Mar 16, 2008)

I've seen that usually smarter people tend to be Reformed. This is because good and necessary consequence is not something that uneducated people can really grasp. Fortunately for us, Reformed churches also preach the plain and simple gospel. I think in the North, Reformed church have a much larger spread of wealth and education than in the South. Even in my two churches, there is a wide variety among farmers as to wealth, social prestige, and education. This is, of course, no dig at the South (I am a born Southerner, and an emancipationist Confederate, if that makes any sense).


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## JOwen (Mar 16, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have been thinking about wealth and the reformed church, as it is now (compared to the days of the apostles and the days of the reformers). In my experience, there are a lot more wealthy (and well-educated) people in reformed churches than there are those of the lower, less-educated people. Is this a misconception? Is it something that is restricted to my part of the country? If, indeed, the reformed church has a higher percentage of wealthy, educated people than poor, uneducated people, why is that so?
> 
> Also, in my experience, folks who are well off in the reformed church tend to snub their noses at the lower, uneducated in the church. Keep in mind that my experience in the reformed church is restricted to one part of the country where financial status and education determines who you associate with.
> 
> ...



I pastor a Free Reformed congregation and almost all of them are, or were farmers. In Scotland, where I received my license, many of those members were or are crofters (farmers). There are 5 major Reformed Churches in this little town of Lacombe, perhaps as many as 2000 members, most of which are High School grads and not much further. Two of my elders are farmers, and one deacon is a plumber. The others have some secondary education. I think it might be a misnomer to think that the Reformed are better educated or better off than others, or that we look down our noses at Joe Sixpack. Truth appeals to all kinds of souls, at every station and point in life. Serious and conscientious people are from every strata in society. I'd say that 8% of my congregation have something beyond a High School diploma. Now we are country folk, and a city church would garner a different demographic. 

As to the "poor", our deacon's fund is used regularly throughout the year.


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 16, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have been thinking about wealth and the reformed church, as it is now (compared to the days of the apostles and the days of the reformers). In my experience, there are a lot more wealthy (and well-educated) people in reformed churches than there are those of the lower, less-educated people. Is this a misconception? Is it something that is restricted to my part of the country? If, indeed, the reformed church has a higher percentage of wealthy, educated people than poor, uneducated people, why is that so?
> 
> Also, in my experience, folks who are well off in the reformed church tend to snub their noses at the lower, uneducated in the church. Keep in mind that my experience in the reformed church is restricted to one part of the country where financial status and education determines who you associate with.
> 
> ...





I believe if we look to its roots, ie the Dutch, we must recognize culturally how they are. Living in "little Geneva" Holland Mi area, the dutch do have the tendancy to not be very warm people. Very unemotional. But with newer generations 'mixed breeding' dutch with non dutch, you are seeing a change in behavior. Once the old school dies off I believe we will see a resurgeance in an attitude of care for the poor and less educated. J, you are speaking of true blue bloods with deep reformed segregated roots. It is lamentable, but not a definition for all. The way some act, one could almost be led to believe that God is a segregationist, bringing the Gospel to WASPS only, yet we know this could not be farther from the truth. 

The hard part of this transition from entitlement attitude to pure compassion comes a strain of liberalism. We always pick extremes, that is our detriment.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 16, 2008)

JOwen said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > I have been thinking about wealth and the reformed church, as it is now (compared to the days of the apostles and the days of the reformers). In my experience, there are a lot more wealthy (and well-educated) people in reformed churches than there are those of the lower, less-educated people. Is this a misconception? Is it something that is restricted to my part of the country? If, indeed, the reformed church has a higher percentage of wealthy, educated people than poor, uneducated people, why is that so?
> ...



I am happy to know that what I've seen is probably more typical of my region than it is of other places in the USA. My own church is a hodge-podge, and I don't sense this "class distinction" that I have in other reformed congregations in my part of the Southern USA. Even so, the majority of the folks in my congregation are well-to-do and most have at least a college education.


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## RamistThomist (Mar 16, 2008)

It is sometimes true, but there are a lot of factors (I for one, being a school teacher, will never, ever, ever be close to "wealthy"). Many Reformed people are disciplined with their money and resources. Reformed people think covenantally--with an eye to the future. This eventually includes stuff like money. Therefore, there is a reason to save for the future. This can lead to wealth (unless you are in a socialist or hyper-inflationist economy--then no one is wealthy!  ).


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## Craig (Mar 16, 2008)

I have little experience among Reformed churches...

Our first truly Calvinistic church was Edgewood Baptist in Anderson, IN...I think there was some wealth there...but also a lot of love. People invited us over and took time to meet us...haven't worshipped there in 6 years, and we still received cards from an older lady there for some time afterward.

Our second church was Community, OPC in Kalamazoo, MI. There likely was some wealth there because the pastor received a "livable" wage from under 30 members...but the wealth was the result of Dutch thrift, hard work, and years of saving. One of our deacons was a garbage man, and his family had much respect in that church. There was also hospitality expressed there.

Our current church has a LOT of what I'd consider wealthy people...but they are often thrifty and open their homes up to many in our church or are quick to invite people they've never met before...one couple tried to pick up a homeless man on Friday, offering to take him to dinner, and then a Bible study...the man liked the idea of dinner, but not Bible Study! Sad to say, but my wealthy brothers and sisters put this man to shame by pursuing new people (no matter economic position) and inviting people over...

None of these churches is located in a booming Metropolis...I wonder if some of this may be dependent on that? Perhaps wealthy Reformed folk in big cities tend to "buy into" worldly thinking more often and with that snobbery?


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## DMcFadden (Mar 16, 2008)

> Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?



Of course they do. Why else do you think I'm a baptist? Perhaps it is "because good and necessary consequence is not something that uneducated people [like me] can really grasp." 

Actually, I suspect that the issue of social class among Protestant denominations involves a number of factors, many of them part of the historical differentiations among denominations. The _NY Times _ran an interesting article a couple of years ago. Part of it said:



> In 1929, the theologian H. Richard Niebuhr described born-again Christianity as the "religion of the disinherited." But over the last 40 years, evangelicals have pulled steadily closer in income and education to mainline Protestants in the historically affluent establishment denominations. In the process they have overturned the old social pecking order in which "Episcopalian," for example, was a code word for upper class, and "fundamentalist" or "evangelical" shorthand for lower . . . Meanwhile, evangelical Protestants are pulling closer to their mainline counterparts in class and education. As late as 1965, for example, a white mainline Protestant was two and a half times as likely to have a college degree as a white evangelical, according to an analysis by Prof. Corwin E. Smidt, a political scientist at Calvin College, an evangelical institution in Grand Rapids, Mich. But by 2000, a mainline Protestant was only 65 percent more likely to have the same degree. And since 1985, the percentage of incoming freshmen at highly selective private universities who said they were born-again also rose by half, to 11 or 12 percent each year from 7.3 percent, according to the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles.



Nevertheless, the message of Calvinism IS not typically defended by popularizers and mega church pastors other than a rare R.C. Sproul. Mega churches such as Willowcreek, Saddleback, and Osteen's place are not exactly proclaiming the Canons of Dort or preaching through the Sundays in the Heidelberg Catechism. 

Plus, the high value placed upon education among the Reformed is evident even here on the PB. Some of the laypeople here are AMAZING! Many of them know more theology and are better read than your average seminary graduate from any number of other denominations! 

Will people "self select" churches that appeal to their preferences? Duh! That does not mean that Reformed churches snub anyone. It simply suggests that those wanting a more enthusiastic, emotional, and feelings-driven worship experience are not likely to choose the Reformed Church of Somewhere. They will more likely be found at the First Bapticostal Tabernacle of the Holy Spirit . . . where poor, stupid people like me are members. 

[The last line was gratuitously tongue-in-cheek. However, leaving out the words after the elipsis marks, my point stands.]


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## timmopussycat (Mar 16, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> > Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they do. Why else do you think I'm a baptist? Perhaps it is "because good and necessary consequence is not something that uneducated people [like me] can really grasp."



Actually even educated people have a hard time with the concept. Look how many educated people erroneously think that GNC deductions from Scripture require Presbyterial govenment and infant baptism.


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## MMasztal (Mar 16, 2008)

I've moved around different parts of the country and had the opportunity to attend an OPC and PCA church in the northeast and an OPC and ARPC church in the south. 

I, too, have noticed a disproportionate number of highly educated folks attending these churches. As to why, I'd opine that the Reformed faith isn't involved in "easy believism" and the theology can be fairly demanding. the WCOF, for instance was actively being taught in all the churches I've attended. 

I've never seen us "snub" the lesser educated folks, but we don't offer much quarter to Arminians.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 16, 2008)

Which is interesting to me considering the Shorter Catechism was written for the uneducated masses and Children.


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## Ivan (Mar 16, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > > Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?
> ...



Now that made me...


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## christianyouth (Mar 16, 2008)

Jbaldwin, this is something that I've noticed to. I'm in Detroit, which is as most of you know, a pretty poor city. We don't have ONE Reformed church in the city. The only Reformed churches are in the suburbs, totally outside of my economic class. So good question, I have been wanting to know this for some time. 

*also* there is something about Reformed people being disciplined. I have noticed that since becoming Reformed about 2 years ago. I think that can be a valid explanation why the majority of Reformed people tend to be middle to higher class. But what can we do to reach the impoverished communities where Pentecostalism is running rampant? I really have a burden for my city. Thanks again Jb.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 16, 2008)

Andrew, 

You seem to have put in words some of what I am thinking. I, too, am concerned about the improverished "masses" where pentecostalism is running rampant. Where I live, there seems to be a growing separation between the wealthy educated and poor uneducated populations, and I know of few reformed churches who are reaching out to this group of people.


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## turmeric (Mar 16, 2008)

That's why we shouldn't turn up our noses at Sproul or even Piper, who are able to "put the Reformed cookies on the lower shelves" so everyone can get to them. Even Tim Keller worms has helped to plant a church in Harlem. I think it's PCA.

I was talking with some young revolutionaries from our church today, trying to interest them in a classical school program for the poor of our city - so they can at least be informed citizens. Didn't get very far.


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## bookslover (Mar 16, 2008)

MMasztal said:


> ...I'd opine that the Reformed faith isn't involved in "easy believism" and the theology can be fairly demanding.



However, in God's providence, the gospel, when properly presented, is crystal clear...and the doctors and lawyers need it just as much as the plumbers and garbage collectors do.


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## bookslover (Mar 16, 2008)

On a related topic to wealthy and educated vs. less wealthy and educated: years ago, I once saw a booklet or pamphlet written William Sanford LaSor of Fuller Seminary about how to choose a seminary. In it, Sanford had a section cautioning would-be seminary students "not to pick a seminary that you're not smart enough for" - that some seminaries are allegedly more sophisticated in the curriculum or the way they teach than others.

In other words: if you're some hick fundy, you probably don't want to come to Fuller.

I don't think I've ever seen that before in a brochure of that nature.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 17, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I have been thinking about wealth and the reformed church, as it is now (compared to the days of the apostles and the days of the reformers). In my experience, there are a lot more wealthy (and well-educated) people in reformed churches than there are those of the lower, less-educated people. Is this a misconception? Is it something that is restricted to my part of the country? If, indeed, the reformed church has a higher percentage of wealthy, educated people than poor, uneducated people, why is that so?
> 
> Also, in my experience, folks who are well off in the reformed church tend to snub their noses at the lower, uneducated in the church. Keep in mind that my experience in the reformed church is restricted to one part of the country where financial status and education determines who you associate with.
> 
> ...



This raises a number of very important questions which we in the Reformed world need to grapple with. My own denomination badly suffers from being inordinately middle-class and the whole climate (in my opinion) is off-putting to those from working-class backgrounds. Sadly, our only working-class congregation (which was in East Belfast) closed over a year ago (though there are efforts to revive it).


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## DMcFadden (Mar 17, 2008)

bookslover said:


> On a related topic to wealthy and educated vs. less wealthy and educated: years ago, I once saw a booklet or pamphlet written William Sanford LaSor of Fuller Seminary about how to choose a seminary. In it, Sanford had a section cautioning would-be seminary students "not to pick a seminary that you're not smart enough for" - that some seminaries are allegedly more sophisticated in the curriculum or the way they teach than others.
> 
> In other words: if you're some hick fundy, you probably don't want to come to Fuller.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen that before in a brochure of that nature.



Sounds like the Bill LaSor I had at Fuller! He was equally elitist in class. You could earn an A from him, speak often in class, and two years later he wouldn't even recognize you as a former student. [BTW, after a quarter studying the "Messianic Idea in the Old Testament," we still were not sure if he actually thought any of it was actually messianic!]

In my humble opinion (or maybe IMNSHO), places like Fuller practice the worst kind of elitism. They stand amazed in the presence of ideas of those who scoff at scripture and practice hard to cater to the sophisticated despisers of the Gospel. My "Reformed" profs were the ones who dissed Schaeffer, Carl Henry, Van Til, and the like. They laughed at the scholars at places like Trinity (TEDS), Gordon, and Westminster and adored the neo-orthodox (remember this was in the mid 70s) OT scholars and systematic theologians. 

After 27 years of interviewing FTS grads for ordination (300 or so), they seem to know the most about theology's fads and cul de sacs and the least about the major tenets of orthodoxy. Few, if any, know what the ordo salutis is; most cannot explain the difference between propitiation and expiation; and almost none have done any reading on anything but the egalitarian view of male/female roles. But, they KNOW their Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, and Pagitt! A few months ago, I did my annual lecture to baptist students at Fuller about ordination. On the topic of theology, they all professed admiration for and varying levels of adherence to Brian McLaren.


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## JohnOwen007 (Mar 17, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > [...] Few, if any, know what the ordo salutis is; most cannot explain the difference between propitiation and expiation; and almost none have done any reading on anything but the egalitarian view of male/female roles. But, they KNOW their Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, and Pagitt! A few months ago, I did my annual lecture to baptist students at Fuller about ordination. On the topic of theology, they all professed admiration for and varying levels of adherence to Brian McLaren.
> ...


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## Pergamum (Mar 17, 2008)

A few thoughts:

I read and found interesting Max Weber's book on calvinism and capitalism. It appears that protestantism promotes a certain industriousness (hard work, honesty and frugality). Education always increased for sure wherever the Protestant faith went.

Also, I do also notice that many reformed churches are representative of only a small slice of America as a whole, largely white. I even heard a "colored boy" joke in one calvinist church I attended and frequent quotes by Dabney and southern generals and against Lincoln. I am sure that these things have an effect against diversity. And ethnic minorities do seem to represent a large portion of the poor in the US.

I have posted several posts on the PB about issues of the poor and about 3/4th of the time, at some point, someone will mention Chilton's book that is written against Ron Sider, "Productive Christians in the age of guilt manipulators." What this means to me is that in threads about the poor, there are equal parts reaction as there are legitimate positive contributions to the discussion.

However, I am a sovereign grace baptist and most of the church members I am familiar with are not rich but are largely rural and lower middle class, and the most generous people I know.

So...I am not sure how to make many generalizations.


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## A5pointer (Mar 17, 2008)

When we look the other way it is interesting to note the people we know otherwise to be very intellegent and accomplished check their intellect at the door and follow silly evangelicalism. I am sure we all know a few.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 17, 2008)

> but the wealth was the result of Dutch thrift, hard work, and years of saving.



In the church I grew up in, it was 'old school' Dutch. There _was_ some wealth, but like that of the 'wealthy barber' - saving pennies and denying one's material urges was the name of the game. The purses came open for Christian school and church needs, but were otherwise closed. I know families of 6 kids who were raised in tiny houses but whose fathers always had lots to spend at Christian school bazaars.

I also don't think there is such a leaning toward higher education. In my home church, high school and _maybe_ technical college (in fairly rare cases) was the order of the day for my father's generation, and they were the ones who accumulated all the wealth. They were, for the most part:

1. poorly educated
2. self-employed
3. frugal

My grandfather was a dirt farmer (much plowing, little harvesting, little income) but was an elder of no little standing in his congregation. He raised five children in near-poverty (but what we would likely call 'severe' poverty today), four of whom have stood as elders or married men who have. One has fallen away from the faith.

Watching the older generation die off is, in many ways, watching the gutting of the church.


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 17, 2008)

It is amazing how we can make a vice a virtue for one of our own. Thrifty is used when describing our own, cheap and uncaring is used for others.


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## christianyouth (Mar 17, 2008)

You know, Jb, I imagine that someone has written on this somewhere. I've been searching on Google to see if anyone else has noticed this trend and my searches have been turning up blank. However, I found one article that may be able to give us a few hints on on this, though the article was about Reformed churches + minorities.

Minorities and the Reformed Churches

By John Frame, so should be a pretty good read. Reading it right now.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 17, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> It is amazing how we can make a vice a virtue for one of our own. Thrifty is used when describing our own, cheap and uncaring is used for others.



Interesting point. 

It is always right to be good stewards of what God has given us, but when I talk about wealth and education, I am not saying that these things are wrong. I believe in being a good steward, and I believe in good education. What I am observing, perhaps, is that a common vice of the well-educated and wealthy (even in reformed circles) is to equate wealth and education with holiness, as if poverty and lack of education equals unholiness. I say this, because it is something I have struggled with, and I've been both wealthy and dirt poor. 

While it IS true that if you follow Biblical principles you will be prosperous, does ir necessarily mean you will be a millionaire? Or does that mean you will be prosperous where God has put you? We were told to ask God for our daily bread. We are told that in this world we will have tribulation. In our walk with the Lord, I think we have our financial ups and downs.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 17, 2008)

christianyouth said:


> You know, Jb, I imagine that someone has written on this somewhere. I've been searching on Google to see if anyone else has noticed this trend and my searches have been turning up blank. However, I found one article that may be able to give us a few hints on on this, though the article was about Reformed churches + minorities.
> 
> Minorities and the Reformed Churches
> 
> By John Frame, so should be a pretty good read. Reading it right now.



Thanks, that is an interesting article and addresses at least one side of my what I have observed. I may make more comments later.


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## Sonoftheday (Mar 17, 2008)

> Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?



No, the reformed church I attend seems to accept me.


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 17, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > It is amazing how we can make a vice a virtue for one of our own. Thrifty is used when describing our own, cheap and uncaring is used for others.
> ...





Ill give you a personal example JB. Our church hosts a soup kitchen for lack of a better term. I facilitate it and receive more support from secular organizations than our own congregation and surrounding reformed churches. When our congregagtion comes to eat at any of the dinners, they sit at their own table and dont talk to the deserved people that do come. All they are concerned with is "Have any of them joined the church?" I say, "That is not my concern." "My concern is to feed them and point them to Christ". Being part of our roles is the wrong attitude towards the 'poor'. Going out to the byways and highways inviting them to the wedding feast, is not having them join our church!!!! They do not understand this type of kingdom thinking. And it is a shame. They look at the kingdom through the churches leneses, instead of looking at the church through the kingdom's lenses. People that come are filthy messes. Drunks, drug addicts, unwashed physically. I was brought before the consistory telling me to get them to stop dirtying the new rug they put in 5 years ago. They thought this was good stewardship. So I solved the problem. I went in one night, ripped up the rug revealing linoleum floors. Now there is no problem. I go by the motto it is always easier to ask for forgiveness instead of permission!!!!!

Let me also state that I detest liberation theology. I find it heretical. But one cannot throw the perverbial baby out with the water either. Thrifty or frugal does not mean filling ones own coffers first for an inheritence or bequeathment to the church, then giving what is left over for those in need. JB< the problem is that people who leave money, still want control over it after they are food for worms rotting in the ground. Becasue of my insisting, we will no longer allow engraved plaques, or earmarked monies that people leave to the church when they die. SOme have not given becasue of this, and that is good becasue i do not want their money. I have no tolerance of dead gepetto's still holding the purse strings when they are gone. Neither do we allow it when they are living.


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## SueS (Mar 17, 2008)

I've tried several times to post to this thread but each time my comments became too drawn out and rambling and I deleted them. Sooo.....here's another try.....

All churches have to be taken on a one by one basis - I don't think that a blanket statement as to whether or not a Reformed church is snobbish toward the poor and uneducated can be made.

However, I believe that the doctrinal differences between Reformed and, for example, charismatic churches result in discernable differences in the overall educational level in respective congregations. It's easy to attend a charismatic church - all you have to do is be willing to stand for long periods of time doing the happy-clappy routine, be open to various "spiritual" manifestations, and listen to sermons that may or may not be biblically sound and are rarely expository in nature. That's how it was in my former church - we weren't taught doctrine and those who tried to venture into the waters of deeper theological understanding were warned against becoming puffed up with knowledge.

The very structure of Reformed preaching/teaching with its emphasis upon expository teaching and creeds, confessions, and catechisms which cast further light on scriptural truths, attract people who have both an intellectual and a spiritual hunger. The weekly expositing of the Word of God serves to educate and enlighten even those without an intellectual bent. 

As to whether a church is snobbish - as I said before, it depends on the church - our new church, a PCA - is warm and giving and welcomed us with literally open arms when we first began attending. I think the title "Presbyterian" connotes elitism to some people and our church was known in previous years as snobbish, something we are trying, with much prayer, to correct. In the end, of course, it is the Lord who will change our hearts and enable us to reach out in His love to those around us for their good and His glory.


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## BertMulder (Mar 17, 2008)

No, we cathechise them.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm sure you'll all pardon me if I mention Redeemer PCA in Manhattan, and Tim Keller. The demographic groups Tim aimed at were those neglected (feared?) by many churches: young, educated, professionals (lawyers, financial workers, doctors, educators, businessmen & women), artists, intellectuals, students -- the present or future movers and shakers of the city and its culture. But there are many minorities, including the poor among them, who gladly attend and join.

One of Tim's focuses is on radical giving of one's money ("When walking with the Lord, money is _always_ an issue," he says). It is one way of showing where our true security lies, our "functional salvation". So the generosity of the congregation (congregations now) has financed and staffed many "mercy ministries" in the city and elsewhere. The emphasis at Redeemer is equally on growing in the knowledge and grace of Christ and reaching out to the disadvantaged, marginalized, and poor with the Gospel and material aid.

The plant in Harlem is _New Song Community Church, PCA_. The plant in Astoria, Queens (just across the East River from Manhattan) is in a lower to middle class neighborhood, with outreach to Hispanics, Arabs, Greeks, etc -- whoever is in the neighborhood (the church, _Astoria Community Church, PCA_, worships in a synagogue rented on Sundays).

So the church plant I am involved in here in Limassol, Cyprus [_International Evangelical Church (Reformed)_], follows the Redeemer paradigm: we welcome the poor and marginalized as well as the wealthy. We had one fairly wealthy couple here, but they had to leave due to health concerns and better medical treatment elsewhere; the poor among our people -- foreign domestic workers -- are those who give the most in their offerings. Whatever our stations in life, we all of us are family, together wending our way through a hostile world to the city of God. We look after one another, according to our gifts and abilities.

We got a young African girl out of prison (incarcerated at 17 for coming into the country on bad travel papers -- released almost two years later), and are now helping her get established in the community. We fish for souls and draw in whomever the Savior gives us.

The evening service on Sundays is primarily an Arabic-speaking congregation (I speak through translators, and an Arabic-speaking pastor frequently comes), though English-speakers often attend and are welcome. It is heartening to these Arabs that I am a Jew and have a heart for them; it is heartening for me that they take me in as a brother -- which the Lord Jesus indeed makes us!

MERF (Middle East Reformed Fellowship) provides us with some of the best Reformed literature translated into Arabic, so as to educate our people (and MERF also provides us with Farsi (Persian) Reformed lit for the many Iranian Christians here). As MERF is supporting our premises, I use a good bit of the surplus offerings to buy Bibles, and good books so our "poor and uneducated" may grow in knowledge. A lot of our folks now have Spurgeon's _Morning and Evening_, Sproul's _Essential Truths of the Christian Faith_, and Peter Jeffery's _Bitesize Theology_. I'm thinking to get William Henry Green's _Conflict and Triumph: The Argument of the Book of Job Unfolded_, and give it out because of its superb (and relatively simple) exegetical and devotional look at suffering. I want my people educated in the things of God, as well as knowing how to walk with Him in constant intimate communion.

So the stereotype of the Reformed "snubbing the poor and uneducated" is falling away in the face of those P & R churches who truly live the Gospel, which many are doing. Tim Keller and Redeemer have been a light to many in this regard.

I don't agree with him on every point, and have spoken to him concerning them; but I love and respect the man. My wife and I have been immeasurably enriched by his ministry. If we think such a man errs on things, then we should pray for him.

I'm back in Cyprus now. It was a good and productive visit to New York. I'm glad to be home with my wife!


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## Mushroom (Mar 17, 2008)

Sonoftheday said:


> > Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?
> 
> 
> 
> No, the reformed church I attend seems to accept me.



I was thinking the same thing. If anything, its not my poverty that they might look down their noses at me for, but rather my boneheadedness. That far eclipses anything else they might notice about me.


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 17, 2008)

Brad said:


> Sonoftheday said:
> 
> 
> > > Do Reformed Churches "Snub" the poor, uneducated believers?
> ...



Brad it is not the 'inreach" that is problematic at times, it is the outreach that presents barriers wo WASPS. They will dig deep to redo the narthax for 100k, but ask them for a few bucks so we can do a service for the downtrodden in their row houses and the become a grinch.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 17, 2008)

> It is amazing how we can make a vice a virtue for one of our own. Thrifty is used when describing our own, cheap and uncaring is used for others.



However, I can honestly say that almost all the old-school 'frugal' Reformed that I know have their priorities straight. That is, while they are frugal with what they spend on themselves, giving to the ministry comes first. I don't see how that is a bad thing...


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## BJClark (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't know if it's a "reformed" Church thing or not, it may be more a heart issue...I know many wealthy people at our church--some who snub those less fortunate, and some who don't.

My step-mother comes from an affluent family and she snubs those with less money and she doesn't go to a reformed church..she goes to a liberal church..with no minorities, but then we have Churches with a majority who attend them are Asian, Black, or whatever minority...and they have their own affluent groups within them..we have some minorities in our church, and many of them are highly educated and affluent as well, but I don't notice them snubbing those at our church who are less educated or affluent than themselves..like some of the others do..

So again, I don't think it's necessarily a Reformed issue, I think it may be more a heart issue..


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## SueS (Mar 17, 2008)

BJClark said:


> So again, I don't think it's necessarily a Reformed issue, I think it may be more a heart issue..





I think you're spot on there - however, rightly or wrongly, "Presbyterian" and "Reformed" both have upper crust, elitist, snob images that somehow need to be eliminated.


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 17, 2008)

Having traveled the world in the Navy for the last 20 years I've experienced both vibrant out reach from Reformed Presbyterian churches and "upper crust snobbishness". It depends on the congregation and the location often times.

Not to mention some folks are more out going than others to begin with and then there's the whole "birds of a feather" thing. People tend to congregate with people they feel comfortable around instead of going outside their "comfort zones".


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 17, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Also, in my experience, folks who are well off in the reformed church tend to snub their noses at the lower, uneducated in the church.


Before I spend some time answering this can you PM me your annual income and transcripts from your school. 

There is a problem, I think, with both class snobbery but I think some of it has to do with an inability to "be all things to all people." This is actually not restricted to Reformed people. I think the demographic that Lane describes below sort of nails it from a certain angle.



greenbaggins said:


> I've seen that usually smarter people tend to be Reformed. This is because good and necessary consequence is not something that uneducated people can really grasp. Fortunately for us, Reformed churches also preach the plain and simple gospel. I think in the North, Reformed church have a much larger spread of wealth and education than in the South. Even in my two churches, there is a wide variety among farmers as to wealth, social prestige, and education. This is, of course, no dig at the South (I am a born Southerner, and an emancipationist Confederate, if that makes any sense).



I think that the recent growth in Reformed theology owes a lot to Sproul and _Renewing your Mind_. At least 10-15 years ago it probably did but now it's getting its own traction.

I think the initial impression of Reformed theology is, by outsiders, is that it's for the smart people that care about deeper things. It has something to do with the divorce of the mind and the heart in American culture (especially in religion) but self-described Calvinists have perpetuated this myth because a good portion of them never really become Reformed but remain pre-destinarians that like to debate the 5 points of Calvinism. They never really "graduate". In my estimation, most of these folks are actually not all that intelligent or wise, which is an irony that they're perceived as "brainy".

The "cage stage", in my estimation, is really a reflection of immaturity where the person starts to believe those around him that view him as some sort of Biblical authority because he's picked up a few arguments and texts that demonstrate TULIP. I've seen this happen repeatedly here were folks show up that have had people fawn over their mastery of Scriptures and then they come to regale us with insight and either write the board off as heretics or are slowly brought to their senses that they have *a lot* to learn. I can speak with some authority hear because I'm still a fool in search of wisdom.

Anyhow, back to my initial point. I think it is the nature of the beast that there are always folks who lack an ability to think about the world outside themselves and how to relate to it. Paul speaks of being all things to all people. It's not that he compromised his beliefs but he was able to communicate truth to smart men (Greeks) and uneducated men (barbarians-he calls them that, not me).

Again, though, this is not endemic to Reformed people. Everybody has this problem. My consistent criticism of American "evangelism" is that it exports American culture as much (or more than) Christianity. I think I've told the story of a Vacation Bible School where it didn't occur to folks to cut out the pledge of allegiance to the American flag from the curriculum that was being offered to Japanese kids here. I'm sure their parents must have loved seeing their little toddlers and elementary age kids pledging their allegiance to America. Japanese people here have been asking "What does the Easter Bunny have to do with Jesus rising from the dead?' just like they asked about Santa Claus and the Incarnation.

It is a reminder to us all, then, that we need to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. If everyone in our Church is comfortable with each other because you all would pretty much be friends even if you didn't name Christ then you better be sure that that's not the "vibe" that's being put out. It's good to get out now and again and talk to people outside your social group and get to know how they think. Paul was in the marketplace and, as someone else noted, he made sure he could communicate a Truth that transcended the cultural lines that often make communication between "classes" seem impossible. It is to the Church's shame that worship is segregated on Sunday AM.


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## Grymir (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm gonna turn the tables a little. I goto a rich white church. I didn't know it when I called them up and asked whether they were liberal or conservative. A conservative answer was all I needed. I didn't care whether they snubbed me or not. It's up to us poor, uneducated believers to go into those church's. Who cares if they snub me? I wanna hear the gospel preached. I long for the days of a true 'frozen chosen' church. Hear some good old Presbyterian preaching. I wanna walk in and see icicles hanging from there noses. 

I am poor by the way. Just a cook ma'am!


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## JKLeoPCA (Mar 18, 2008)

The easy believeism message that doesn't require anything from you is always the appeal of the masses, poor or not. Give me your heart, and check your head at the door is typically why reformed churches have members. Not because they advocate the heart over the head, but because people get burned out on that stuff. The emotional rollercoaster just never ends in assurance and gratitude. Reformed churches typically ask a person to go through some form of catechism training or teaching, and that is just too much for some people, when the mega church down the street is willing and waiting to cater to their every felt need, and only require they pray a prayer and walk an isle. 

I'm not rich or all that intelectual, but I'm happy with my church, and have never felt snubbed. I find that reformed churches are only intelectual in the sence that they have taken the time to have an answer for anyone that would ask, as to the reason for their faith. Good solid, well defined answers at that, that are objective and not subjective.


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## christianyouth (Mar 18, 2008)

John, I agree with you entirely. I really got burned out on that stuff about 6 months after conversion. I'm So glad 'Renewing your Mind' started coming on NRB! 

I just wonder, how many disillusioned Christians have no idea that there is anything out there besides shallow emotionalism. I didn't. That's why I'm concerned about not having one Reformed church in my city. How many lower income, minority group people even know that there are teachers out there of the caliber of Sproul and MacArthur? My guess is that not many do. There are many people I know who feel drastically uncomfortable going to a church that is in a different economic class. in my opinion, the only way to reach these type of people is to plant Reformed churches in their areas.

So, just wondering, if the Reformed community doesn't snub the poor, uneducated, folk, wouldn't we expect them to plant churches in the poor communities, i.e. my city?


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 18, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > It is amazing how we can make a vice a virtue for one of our own. Thrifty is used when describing our own, cheap and uncaring is used for others.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I can honestly say that almost all the old-school 'frugal' Reformed that I know have their priorities straight. That is, while they are frugal with what they spend on themselves, giving to the ministry comes first. I don't see how that is a bad thing...



It is not a bad thing Kevin at all. But it also depends on what they consider the ministry and will they give their alms in private or blow the horn when they do. I have seen the latter more than the prior.


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 18, 2008)

Grymir said:


> I'm gonna turn the tables a little. I goto a rich white church. I didn't know it when I called them up and asked whether they were liberal or conservative. A conservative answer was all I needed. I didn't care whether they snubbed me or not. It's up to us poor, uneducated believers to go into those church's. Who cares if they snub me? I wanna hear the gospel preached. I long for the days of a true 'frozen chosen' church. Hear some good old Presbyterian preaching. I wanna walk in and see icicles hanging from there noses.
> 
> I am poor by the way. Just a cook ma'am!




This is not the biblical model of reaching the poor. We MUST go to where they are, not expect them to come to us. Let me also clarify that all are poor in spirit, so this is not just economical, but the poor in regards to 'wealth' are not always in our sight. We MUST also recognize that it is only up to God alone to provide the increase. Yet we are the instruments used for bringing the glad tidings.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 18, 2008)

> It is a reminder to us all, then, *that we need to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. If everyone in our Church is comfortable with each other because you all would pretty much be friends even if you didn't name Christ then you better be sure that that's not the "vibe" that's being put out.* It's good to get out now and again and talk to people outside your social group and get to know how they think. Paul was in the marketplace and, as someone else noted, he made sure he could communicate a Truth that transcended the cultural lines that often make communication between "classes" seem impossible. It is to the Church's shame that worship is segregated on Sunday AM



Rich, 

This really speaks to me. We were not called to be comfortable. We were called to be shining lights in a crooked and perverse generation (Phil 2). That requires that we step out of our comfort zones and be Christ to all around us, no matter what their class.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 18, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > I'm gonna turn the tables a little. I goto a rich white church. I didn't know it when I called them up and asked whether they were liberal or conservative. A conservative answer was all I needed. I didn't care whether they snubbed me or not. It's up to us poor, uneducated believers to go into those church's. Who cares if they snub me? I wanna hear the gospel preached. I long for the days of a true 'frozen chosen' church. Hear some good old Presbyterian preaching. I wanna walk in and see icicles hanging from there noses.
> ...



One of the things that I have noticed in those I've seen who "snub" the poor, they are quite happy to throw a few dollars at a ministry and say they have done their job, but when these same folks get into leadership positions where they make the decisions (and sadly in some churches they make to leadership), they are unwilling to start new churches or get their hands dirty when it comes to outreach. The general attitude seems to be, "I have done my part, I gave some money to the deacon's fund."


Again, every time I post a comment, I fear lest some think I am pointing fingers at someone. I am probably pointing the biggest finger at myself, because it is an area I've struggled over for many years, but an area where I am trusting God to help me get out of my comfort zone and reach out to others.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 18, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> > It is a reminder to us all, then, *that we need to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. If everyone in our Church is comfortable with each other because you all would pretty much be friends even if you didn't name Christ then you better be sure that that's not the "vibe" that's being put out.* It's good to get out now and again and talk to people outside your social group and get to know how they think. Paul was in the marketplace and, as someone else noted, he made sure he could communicate a Truth that transcended the cultural lines that often make communication between "classes" seem impossible. It is to the Church's shame that worship is segregated on Sunday AM
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excuse me, I still haven't received that PM and your college transcripts....


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## kvanlaan (Mar 18, 2008)

> It is not a bad thing Kevin at all. But it also depends on what they consider the ministry and will they give their alms in private or blow the horn when they do. I have seen the latter more than the prior.



I've seen the hardest-baked, frozenest chosenest go to Central America (paying their own way AND giving to the cause there) to do gospel-driven social outreach work (definitely not just 'a little something extra' in the plate and forgotten) up to their knees in dirt and mud, eating corn tortillas and beans of questionable pedigree for two weeks at a go. And they don't do this to feel good about themselves and let it end there - they take this attitude home to the other popsicles, and thaw them _en masse_. (And we're talking hard cases here, not just more socially oriented CRC-ers but even *gasp* FRC types - the real incorrigibles.)

But all this is anecdotal evidence that we can beat each other back and forth with. I saw this and you saw that. Thing is, you live in the environs of 'Jerusalem North' and while there are indeed many within that community who consider a cheque to the poor more than enough 'outreach' for a lifetime, there are plenty who _seem_ that way and give generously in private financially and otherwise (and see this privacy as more appropriate with respect to their convictions on giving than a highly publicized social outreach program). It does take both, but there's _much_ more beneath the surface than you're giving credit for. 

One of the most giving and Christ-like missionaries I know was sent out to this world NOT by any social justice/social gospel church, but by a black-stocking Dutch Calvinist congregation from a tiny hamlet in Canada. This is a woman who never goes _anywhere_ without a head covering and long skirt but has, it seems, almost flippantly given her life to living among the lost in great discomfort. For a lifetime. 24/7.

To look at that congregation, most would see only buttoned-up, cold, Calvinistic legalists. And while your appraisal of that particular congregation (and, I think, your community of Little Geneva) may be superficially correct, I don't see it any more accurate than those who would accuse _your_ group of running your soup kitchen to show others what great Christians you are. That is, I don't believe your motives are insincere in your outreach program, but likewise I don't think your assessment of the community is as accurate as you'd like to think. What 'they' consider 'the ministry' can be completely different from what you believe, but I think you'd be surprised at their industry towards the lost if you had the full picture.


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## Grymir (Mar 18, 2008)

Who says that's not the way to get the gospel out? The rich people need to hear the gospel too!! Are they not worthy? (It is a PCUSA church)


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## DMcFadden (Mar 18, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Who says that's not the way to get the gospel out? The rich people need to hear the gospel too!! Are they not worthy? (It is a PCUSA church)



Man, since it is a PCUSA congregation, it should be a fertile field for evangelism, so many potential converts.


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## Grymir (Mar 18, 2008)

You know it!!


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## Amazing Grace (Mar 18, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > It is not a bad thing Kevin at all. But it also depends on what they consider the ministry and will they give their alms in private or blow the horn when they do. I have seen the latter more than the prior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Kevin:

Do you not see this more and more as the old passes away and the new generation emerges? Maybe I am using too bug of a brush, but I look at it like this, it is a stereotype that is thrown out too many times to claim everyone else is wrong. There HAS to be some shred of truth in it. To constantly be accused of being starched and cold must ring true at some point or else why attack the reformed in such a way? I cant imagine lying about a groups compassion.


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## Dr Mike Kear (Mar 18, 2008)

I know I'm really late in joining the conversation. Forgive me if I get into something that has already been covered.

To me, wealth is relative. Most people who are wealthy do not consider themselves so. Many who are poor do not think of themselves as such, either. It's usually when the two are brought together that the gap is made obvious. My wife and I both work. We drive a ten year old car that we bought for cash. We have no credit cards and are not in debt. We've never made the kind of money necessary to own our own home, so we rent. To us, "wealthy" means anyone who owns their own home. To a kid in the barrio, I'm filthy stinking rich.

The church we were members of a few years ago was a tiny Baptist church with less than 80 members. The congregation - in our estimation - was quite wealthy. There were two physicians, several attorneys, and a college president who were members. Ours was the only 10 year old car in the parking lot. All the rest were new. We were always treated with the utmost kindness and were made to feel very welcome the first time we walked in the door. The church building itself is in a neighborhood that certainly isn't upper class. In fact, I would consider it to be a neighborhood exactly like my own - lower middle class. 

One of the things that impressed me so much about this little group was the amount of "social" ministries they performed. The local Habitat for Humanity was headquartered in the church. The youth went to the local mission several times a month to serve hot meals to the poor. Even the doctors went on yearly mission trips (One of them is still my personal physician. He goes to Jamaica every year on a mission trip to provide free medical treament to third world people).

I said all this because 25 years ago, when my wife and I were young parents who were really struggling to get by, we visited a church where the members were also quite affluent. The Sunday School class we were in was planning their upcoming ski trip. I remember sitting there feeling so embarrassed. We were poor. We could barely keep our kids in wearable clothes. And these folks were going to charter a plane and go skiing. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But we certainly knew right away that we would never have enough money to fit in there. We visited a few times, then left. No one ever even noticed that we'd gone.

The first church I mentioned was a theologically liberal to moderate church. The second was a very conservative church. They were both wealthy, but the moderate church treated us with respect and welcomed us with open arms. The conservative church was uncomfortable with us and we knew it, so that made us uncomfortable as well. The thing that the moderate church taught me was to welcome every person with open arms and to be blind to affluence when it comes to accepting one another in Christ.

Sorry for rambling. I just wanted to share a few thoughts.


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## bookslover (Mar 18, 2008)

JohnOwen007 said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > bookslover said:
> ...


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## JBaldwin (Mar 18, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > > It is a reminder to us all, then, *that we need to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. If everyone in our Church is comfortable with each other because you all would pretty much be friends even if you didn't name Christ then you better be sure that that's not the "vibe" that's being put out.* It's good to get out now and again and talk to people outside your social group and get to know how they think. Paul was in the marketplace and, as someone else noted, he made sure he could communicate a Truth that transcended the cultural lines that often make communication between "classes" seem impossible. It is to the Church's shame that worship is segregated on Sunday AM
> ...



Can you read French?


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## kvanlaan (Mar 18, 2008)

> Do you not see this more and more as the old passes away and the new generation emerges? Maybe I am using too bug of a brush, but I look at it like this, it is a stereotype that is thrown out too many times to claim everyone else is wrong. There HAS to be some shred of truth in it. To constantly be accused of being starched and cold must ring true at some point or else why attack the reformed in such a way? I cant imagine lying about a groups compassion.



I do see a lot of these issues with _some_ in the newer generation - they turn a blessed assurance of salvation into a coccoon to keep others out and God's sovereignty a means of never leaving that coccoon. It's wrong, no doubt about it. This is perhaps then an issue for the elders to take up with them on their next visitation. If this is a position likewise advocated by the elders, then we have a problem that dwarfs the issue of charitable acts/giving.


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