# Suicide and "Went to be with the Lord"



## Pilgrim (Sep 14, 2019)

Recently I've seen a number of obituaries, death notices and have heard sermons confidently stating that a professing Christian who committed suicide "Went to be with the Lord." I find this troubling. This is often in the case of ministers who have committed suicide, but it is seen with the suicide of others as well.

I'll say at the outset that I do not take the Arminian or traditional Roman Catholic view that all suicides are damned. I'm not saying that it is an unpardonable sin. But I wonder if we are too confident to, in effect, preach them into heaven, especially if they are on "our team" theologically.

For the better part of two decades in Reformed circles (more or less) I've heard that the only person's salvation we can have true assurance of is our own. Yet today professing Christians who commit the sin of self-murder are confidently said to be in heaven by Calvinistic Christians who have continually denounced "cheap grace" and "easy believism." What is the basis for this?

I'll admit that my knee-jerk reaction to those who without hesitation assert that professing Christian people are in heaven is that they should apologize to those who they have denounced as purveyors of "cheap grace" and "easy believism" such as Charles Ryrie if not Zane Hodges. By taking this position, haven't they shown that they really believe the same thing, especially when it comes to their friends? (His teaching on discipleship and sanctification notwithstanding, contrary to popular opinion, Ryrie _did_ teach that the believer must produce fruit, although he said that this may not be visible to anyone but God.)

I wonder if these assertions of suicides going to be with the Lord actually leads some to commit suicide by assuaging their conscience? How many in the past have decided against suicide because they feared they'd go to hell if they committed this sin?

Didn't some Puritans and Reformers teach that suicide is a sign of apostasy? I can't find anything offhand right now, however, besides the more recent resources here, (starting about halfway down the page) here, and here, which appear to me to be sounder approaches.

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## Pergamum (Sep 14, 2019)

Isn't it their families who write the obituaries? Obits turn a lot of bad people into saints, after all. Why single out suicide. 

I am not willing to say suicide is apostasy. It is a grievous momentary mistake, which they cannot correct.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Sep 14, 2019)

With suicide, there are so many variables to be taken into consideration, but I would personally rather err on the side of being graceful. But, suicide is a serious sin on many levels, not only effecting the one who kills him/herself, and most often is much deeper than a one-time act of self murder.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 14, 2019)

As Ryan has indicated, when such things happen we make a judgment of charity and judge the deceased person according to their best actions, not on the basis of their worst.

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## Pilgrim (Sep 14, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Isn't it their families who write the obituaries? Obits turn a lot of bad people into saints, after all. Why single out suicide.



You are right about the families. But in the cases I have in mind it has been accompanied by confident pronouncements by ministers, and not ones of the "decisional regeneration" or "easy believism" variety.

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## Pilgrim (Sep 14, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> As Ryan has indicated, when such things happen we make a judgment of charity and judge the deceased person according to their best actions, not on the basis of their worst.



If we can't really be sure if someone else is a real Christian, (which is what I've heard _ad infinitum_ for as long as I've been in Calvinistic circles) how can we be so confident in death, especially under these circumstances? I'm not referring to cases where a hope is expressed based on the profession of faith of the deceased or some statement about a merciful God doing what is right. I'm referring to cases where it is asserted that the deceased is in heaven without any qualification whatsoever.


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## Bill The Baptist (Sep 14, 2019)

Pilgrim said:


> Recently I've seen a number of obituaries, death notices and have heard sermons confidently stating that a professing Christian who committed suicide "Went to be with the Lord." I find this troubling. This is often in the case of ministers who have committed suicide, but it is seen with the suicide of others as well.
> 
> I'll say at the outset that I do not take the Arminian or traditional Roman Catholic view that all suicides are damned. I'm not saying that it is an unpardonable sin. But I wonder if we are too confident to, in effect, preach them into heaven, especially if they are on "our team" theologically.
> 
> ...



I would say this is true anytime someone who claimed to be a Christian passes away, and for that matter even those who never claimed to be such. I don’t think the manner of death makes much difference in people’s opinion of the final destination of their deceased loved one. As Edwards pointed out, “Every natural man who hears of hell flatters himself that he shall escape it.” Apparently this is true even in a vicarious sense.


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## alexandermsmith (Sep 14, 2019)

We have no Scriptural warrant to believe that a true Christian profession and suicide are compatible. There are no examples of the godly committing suicide and indeed it is some of the worst individuals in Scripture who are recorded as having committed self-murder. That doesn't mean those who commit suicide should be "preached into Hell" but it certainly means that we cannot assume they are in Heaven. As regards such an individual he is in the hands of the Lord now and as regards those who remain it should be a very solemnising thing indeed when one who professed Christ commits such a sin.

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## Goodcheer68 (Sep 14, 2019)

alexandermsmith said:


> We have no Scriptural warrant to believe that a true Christian profession and suicide are compatible.



Romans 8:31-39. Suicide is not the unpardonable sin.

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## earl40 (Sep 14, 2019)

Suicide is indeed a grievous sin and there is the passage that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Of course that passage may pertain to those who practice such, and it is indeed impossible to practice such if one is dead. The tension is there, and I can see where in the history of the church the idea that suicide is unpardonable...not that I agree with that.


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## alexandermsmith (Sep 14, 2019)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Romans 8:31-39. Suicide is not the unpardonable sin.



Did I say it was? Whether or not this is the "unpardonable sin" is not at issue in this dicusssion and bringing it up merely muddies the waters. Instead of trying to be more clever than Scripture let us keep _to _Scripture.

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## alexandermsmith (Sep 14, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Suicide is indeed a grievous sin and there is the passage that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Of course that passage may pertain to those who practice such, and it is indeed impossible to practice such if one is dead. The tension is there, and I can see where in the history of the church the idea that suicide is unpardonable...not that I agree with that.



The discussion around suicide as relates to this issue has not been whether it is, in itself, unpardonable but the inability to repent of it. And those who commit suicide _are_ murderers.


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## Jack K (Sep 14, 2019)

People are quick to assert that someone is "with the Lord" because it's a feel-good statement. Wise ministers should avoid making pronouncements one way or the other.

This even includes cases of suicide. A suicide is not a good sign, perhaps. But no sin is greater than God's grace, and we know that true believers do sometimes sin grievously—and who are we to be speculating about a man's heart, anyway? We certainly are not Catholics, believing that some sins automatically are "mortal sins."


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## Chad Hutson (Sep 14, 2019)

alexandermsmith said:


> There are no examples of the godly committing suicide and indeed it is some of the worst individuals in Scripture who are recorded as having committed self-murder.


Samson comes to mind, albeit different circumstances. Nevertheless, repentant Samson did kill himself.
Suicide is an awful, selfish act. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It rightfully has a stigma attached to it. But yet, there are sometimes complicated and convoluted issues behind some suicides, i.e. mental disorders, extreme grief, prolonged physical pain, and so on. Remember, the cancer-stricken chain smoker killed themselves as well. Overeating, overworking, or general disregard for one's health are just some examples of what we do to kill ourselves, although they are not overt, deliberate, immediate acts. It's a complicated subject that requires grace, tact, and absolute trust in an unfailing, good God who knows best.
Having dealt with this subject many times over the years (one dreadful Christmas Eve shotgun suicide in front of the kids' presents comes to mind), I will say unequivocally that* no one* has the right to put their family through such trauma nor sully the good name of God or His family.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 14, 2019)

Samson's case was not a suicide; it was an act of self-sacrifice in godly warfare against idolatry.

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## greenbaggins (Sep 14, 2019)

Suicide is a very serious sin. There is no getting around this fact. Murder of self is a heinous offense against God, against self, and against our neighbors and family. However, we CANNOT hold to a theology that believes that one's eternal destiny hangs on the completely variable state of either the sin or righteousness a person was doing at the time of death. While no one has stated this (and I'm not assuming anyone believes it either), we must beware its subtle influence. Don't we believe that if a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ, then ALL their sins are forgiven: past, present, AND future? While we should never encourage anyone to see that fact as an excuse or justification for suicide, that fact should not scare us away from extending the benefit of the doubt to people in good standing in our churches who commit such a sin. 

While suicide could be a sign of apostasy, I would disagree that it is a certain sign. I would need to see other corroborating signs of apostasy in someone before I would be at all confident in saying that such a person was not a Christian. After all, Christians sometimes also commit murder of someone else. If murdering someone else is not the unforgivable sin, then neither can suicide be so. At any rate, the pastoral implications of suicide are enormously important: how vital it is for the pastor to preach the gospel and call on all who hear to repentance.

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## Chad Hutson (Sep 14, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Samson's case was not a suicide; it was an act of self-sacrifice in godly warfare against idolatry.


I agree with you, which is why I wrote "albeit different circumstances." Nevertheless, his conscious act led to his immediate death. That is within the definition of suicide. I am not an apologist for suicide by any means.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 14, 2019)

A few things need to be distinguished for the sake of clarity.

1. Someone who commits suicide can have no assurance of salvation, as suicide is such a heinous sin as to preclude the possibility of assurance on the part of one who commits it.

2. It is generally valid to presume that most of those who commit suicide are headed to a lost eternity. Both the biblical examples of those who committed suicide and the general principle that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God support this presumption.

3. Despite this general principle, there are exceptions to the rule. Suicide is not recognised in scripture as the unpardonable sin, so we cannot dogmatically assert that a professing Christian who commits suicide is in hell. Even a true believer such as King David could fall into the sin of murder, but we do not judge the general course of David's life, which was lived as a man after God's own heart, on the basis of his worst actions.

4. Suicides do differ from the case of David somewhat in that the person who has committed suicide does not have the opportunity to express repentance. Still, it is not correct to say that dying before having expressly repented of a specific sin automatically means that the person is not saved. (The consequences of the opposite opinion would drive everyone to despair. See Lane's post above for more on this issue.) Moreover, we need to be wary of dogmatically asserting that the person did not repent. I have heard (albeit anecdotal) accounts of people who attempted suicide but repented in the midst of leaping to their deaths. In one case, the man survived hitting the water after jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. He said that he immediately became penitent right after jumping off the bridge.

5. There is a significant difference between someone killing themselves as a result of an inability to cope with the pain of severe melancholy, and someone killing themselves or someone else out of pure hatred for God and their fellow man. Both are heinous sins, but not all heinous sins are equally heinous.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Sep 14, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> 5. There is a significant difference between someone killing themselves as a result of an inability to cope with the pain of severe melancholy, and someone killing themselves or someone else out of pure hatred for God and their fellow man. Both are heinous sins, but not all heinous sins are equally heinous.


I think this is a really important point. Thanks!


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## JH (Sep 14, 2019)

Agreeing greatly Rev. Keister, I just wanted to add to what he was saying about our justification. That the sins we commit are often impulsive ones, suicide is also an impulsive decision, just like many other presumptuous sins; it just so happens to be one that is irreversible.

Again once adding to the fact that once a person by justified by God, nothing can undo that. He has purchased us in the Covenant of Redemption, the Lamb slain for us before the foundation of the world, surely His blood is sufficient to cover even such an unfortunate sin as this.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 14, 2019)

One issue here, as I think about it, is this: We all know that the greatest saints may commit grievous sins. But in Scripture, whether it's Abraham, Moses, David, or Peter, they are given space for repentance. My Confession puts it this way,

_The believer "may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end."—_Baptist Confession of Faith, XVII, 3.​
In the case of suicide, an individual ends their lives with no hope of "renewing their repentance." Instead they make a conscious choice to end their life by a heinously sinful act which admits of no space for repentance. Could they be saved? With all my heart I hope they are! But I believe there is more reason to doubt their interest in Christ than for it to be affirmed.

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## bookslover (Sep 15, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Isn't it their families who write the obituaries? Obits turn a lot of bad people into saints, after all. Why single out suicide.
> 
> I am not willing to say suicide is apostasy. It is a grievous momentary mistake, which they cannot correct.



"A permanent solution to a temporary problem" - as the saying goes.


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## bookslover (Sep 15, 2019)

alexandermsmith said:


> We have no Scriptural warrant to believe that a true Christian profession and suicide are compatible. There are no examples of the godly committing suicide and indeed it is some of the worst individuals in Scripture who are recorded as having committed self-murder. That doesn't mean those who commit suicide should be "preached into Hell" but it certainly means that we cannot assume they are in Heaven. As regards such an individual he is in the hands of the Lord now and as regards those who remain it should be a very solemnising thing indeed when one who professed Christ commits such a sin.



I know of a man who was a sincere Christian who committed suicide about 15 years ago due to extremely agonizing cancer pain. He is in heaven now in the presence of his Lord because Jesus died even for the sin of suicide. Of course, even in His omniscience, God chose this person as a member of the elect knowing that he would kill himself. God's mercy to us is very gracious.


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## Brian Withnell (Sep 15, 2019)

It would seem that we have a very narrow view of our sinfulness if we think we ever are without accompanying sin in all we do. Which of course means we have a very low view of the holiness, righteousness and purity of God. No matter how one dies, no matter where and when, are we even when doing what is good, doing what is absolutely pure and right? I am reminded of Romans 7; is not Paul's great distress over his sin that he sees it always before him?

If we ever speak of someone being in heaven, if we ever have any assurance of our own salvation, do we not do so despite our certain knowledge that nothing we do is pure in his sight? There are those we have certain knowledge of their salvation ... those whose faith and destiny are attested to by scripture.

While I have scriptural testimony that my first wife is saved, I have hope from her life and testimony of faith that she is in fact in heaven. That I hope that her destiny is heaven, I also know that what she deserves is hell ... as is true for all Adam's race save one. If one holds that any professing Christian can by a single unrepentant sin condemn themselves, then hold to all who die in the midst of sin (all of us, for we sin even in our best action) are bound to hell.

For me, I see as one of the most wonderful rewards of heaven is that I no longer have any sin ... that I have written upon my heart the law of God. If in this age we always sin ... if in our best acts we also like Paul can cry out:

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 
(Rom 7:21-25 NIV)​
How then can we ever have assurance? Our assurance is not based in us or what we might do, but in Christ Jesus and what he has already completed. If a person is in good standing with the church at the time of his death, then we must presume that even in self-murder they are in Christ. This of course presumes that the church does her job, and continually cares for and nurtures her children, disciplines those that appear to be straying. But we presume the grace of God for all those within the church, knowing they are constantly doing that which is not pure in itself all the time. This is true of all we might say pass into glory; to do otherwise is to cheapen grace.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Sep 15, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> One issue here, as I think about it, is this: We all know that the greatest saints may commit grievous sins. But in Scripture, whether it's Abraham, Moses, David, or Peter, they are given space for repentance. My Confession puts it this way,
> 
> _The believer "may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end."—_Baptist Confession of Faith, XVII, 3.​
> In the case of suicide, an individual ends their lives with no hope of "renewing their repentance." Instead they make a conscious choice to end their life by a heinously sinful act which admits of no space for repentance. Could they be saved? With all my heart I hope they are! But I believe there is more reason to doubt their interest in Christ than for it to be affirmed.


I ask with sincerity, what of someone who dies right after telling a lie, or someone while thinking a lustful or unbelieving thought, and they are not repentant of it? Would you place suicide on a whole other degree of seriousness of sin that it needs to be repented of before one can be cleansed? I think of Jesus saying to the disciples "you are clean but your feet need to be washed."


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 15, 2019)

Here is a post that is tangentially relevant to the present discussion:

Francis Turretin on believers never repenting of specific sins

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 15, 2019)

Perhaps the shortest answer to the question raised by the OP is that we should look at each instance of suicide committed by a professing Christian on a case-by-case basis. The danger of making a blanket statement that someone who dies as a result of suicide is "with the Lord" is that it could encourage others to go and do likewise unless such a statement is carefully qualified. 

Several years ago, the wife of one of the ruling elders in a neighbouring RP congregation to mine took her own life after falling into a severe bout of depression. At the funeral, her minister did say that he believed that she was with Christ, but only after a) explaining that suicide was a gross breach of the sixth commandment (something that the person in question herself recognised when thinking more clearly), and that b) this person displayed obvious marks of grace in her life. No one could have come out of the funeral thinking that it was okay for a professing Christian to commit suicide, but neither were we driven to despair as to the person's spiritual state.

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## Ed Walsh (Sep 15, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> The danger of making a blanket statement that someone who dies as a result of suicide is "with the Lord" is that it could encourage others to go and do likewise unless such a statement is carefully qualified.



Note: I think I am OK by squeezing in this question about David because I see some similarity in the subject to suicide. But if anyone thinks it is too far off-topic, let me know, and I will be happy to delete it. 

I have often said that during the year or so that David lived with the unconfessed sin and guilt of adultery and murder, maybe Nathan as a prophet but no one else could have (or should have) assured David of his salvation. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

What do you think?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 15, 2019)

Ed Walsh said:


> Note: I think I am OK by squeezing in this question about David because I see some similarity in the subject to suicide. But if anyone thinks it is too far off-topic, let me know, and I will be happy to delete it.
> 
> I have often said that during the year or so that David lived with the unconfessed sin and guilt of adultery and murder, maybe Nathan as a prophet but no one else could have (or should have) assured David of his salvation. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
> 
> What do you think?



Judged by Psalm 51, I do not believe that David could have any assurance of salvation when living in such heinous, unconfessed sin. Hence, he cries out to God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation. It is similar to the case of Peter, who could only have assurance after he renewed faith and repentance. Thus, Christ told him, "when you are converted, strengthen your brothers."

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## JTB.SDG (Sep 16, 2019)

All Christians make stupid mistakes. If a persons life is characterized by the fruit of the Spirit and walking humbly with the Lord, and at the end they take their life, I don't see why that should be an exception to the point we're not allowed to say the person is with the Lord. We look at the entirety of the persons life and tend toward a judgment of charity, and we let the Lord sort it out in the end.

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## cmt72 (Sep 16, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> One issue here, as I think about it, is this: We all know that the greatest saints may commit grievous sins. But in Scripture, whether it's Abraham, Moses, David, or Peter, they are given space for repentance. My Confession puts it this way,
> 
> _The believer "may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end."—_Baptist Confession of Faith, XVII, 3.​
> In the case of suicide, an individual ends their lives with no hope of "renewing their repentance." Instead they make a conscious choice to end their life by a heinously sinful act which admits of no space for repentance. Could they be saved? With all my heart I hope they are! But I believe there is more reason to doubt their interest in Christ than for it to be affirmed.


What about the mentally impaired? Are they capable of making a conscious decision? What if they lived their entire life for the Lord and became completely unstable in their later years resulting in taking their own life? Jesus said “I know my sheep”. I trust Jesus. He alone will judge.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 16, 2019)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I ask with sincerity, what of someone who dies right after telling a lie, or someone while thinking a lustful or unbelieving thought, and they are not repentant of it? Would you place suicide on a whole other degree of seriousness of sin that it needs to be repented of before one can be cleansed? I think of Jesus saying to the disciples "you are clean but your feet need to be washed."


While I would not say "it needs to be repented of before one can be cleansed," I would say it is "on a whole other degree of seriousness of sin" than telling a lie or having a lustful thought. If a believer tells a lie or indulges in lustful thoughts, ordinarily they do not believe this will end their mortal lives and put them beyond all hope of repenting of that act. In suicide, one makes a conscious decision to end one's life by a sinful act which ensures there will be no more earthly opportunities to repent of that act. They resolve to go to God by that sin and in that sin. That, I think, sets it apart from other sins as to its heinousness. Could they be saved? Nothing is impossible with God. But are there strong reasons to doubt their eternal destiny? Very sadly, there are.

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## alexandermsmith (Sep 17, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> All Christians make stupid mistakes. If a persons life is characterized by the fruit of the Spirit and walking humbly with the Lord, and at the end they take their life, I don't see why that should be an exception to the point we're not allowed to say the person is with the Lord. We look at the entirety of the persons life and tend toward a judgment of charity, and we let the Lord sort it out in the end.





cmt72 said:


> What about the mentally impaired? Are they capable of making a conscious decision? What if they lived their entire life for the Lord and became completely unstable in their later years resulting in taking their own life? Jesus said “I know my sheep”. I trust Jesus. He alone will judge.



The two are not analogous. In the case of the mantally retarded their understanding and comprehension is impaired. We see from Scripture (John being regenerated in the womb, David's belief that his dead child was with the Lord) that mental impairment or the lack of a fully developed mental capacity does not inherently disqualify one from being regenerated. There is of course a mystery surrounding this but we have Scripture testifying to its fact. But it would certainly be more challenging in examining such an one if they made a profession.

There is accidental suicide, where one who is suffering from a mental disorder does something without a proper understanding of the consequences, or intending to stop whatever it is before it becomes fatal (but is unable for whatever reason). Such a suicide lack the intent of self-murder and is a distinct category.

Deliberate suicide as a result of a severely deformed mental state is distinct from a simple suicide. But playing the two against each other doesn't help much. And to be clear it is not someone like myself who is making categorical judgements about the fate of individuals. It is those on the other side who feel quite confident in declaring that professing Christians who commit suicide _are_ with the Lord. Such declarations have no Scriptural warrant and if Scripture suggests anything either way it is the opposite. But it is not necessary for me to say that all those commit suicide _must_ now be in Hell. My point is that we have no reason to believe a professing Chrisitan who commits suicide is in Heaven.

People have argued the "preponderance of the evidence" view that a life of seeming godliness which ends in suicide, being charitable, should be considered sufficient evidence for the person being in Heaven. But surely how we end our life is a pretty strong indicator of how we lived it? Perhaps it was only _seeming_ godliness. The Christian life is a life not just one moment of professing. How we end that life says something about its nature.

Furthermore people approach this topic from the wrong direction. The focus of the conversation is usually on the fate of the individual who committed suicide. This is actually of secondary importance _to us_. He is in eternity in one place or the other. Nothing can change that now and it's not particularly profitable trying to determine which it is. What is far more important is how we who remain in this world view suicide and what it means if a professing Christian commits it. If suicide does not _ordinarily _signify a lack of grace then why shouldn't Christians who are going through hard times just kill themselves to end it? We can say it's tragic and appalling and a sin all we like but if the church's teaching is that "well it's not the unpardonable sin, and if you've lived a godly life then why should we think this one act at the ends changes that, and we don't need to repent of _every_ sin we've ever committed because then how could we go to Heaven, and Christ died for our sins past, present and future" then why would a Christian going through a very hard affliction not be justified in concluding that suicide was a legitimate way out?

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## cmt72 (Sep 17, 2019)

alexandermsmith said:


> The two are not analogous. In the case of the mantally retarded their understanding and comprehension is impaired. We see from Scripture (John being regenerated in the womb, David's belief that his dead child was with the Lord) that mental impairment or the lack of a fully developed mental capacity does not inherently disqualify one from being regenerated. There is of course a mystery surrounding this but we have Scripture testifying to its fact. But it would certainly be more challenging in examining such an one if they made a profession.
> 
> There is accidental suicide, where one who is suffering from a mental disorder does something without a proper understanding of the consequences, or intending to stop whatever it is before it becomes fatal (but is unable for whatever reason). Such a suicide lack the intent of self-murder and is a distinct category.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your taking the time to write back on this. I don't disagree with everything you say here. I completely understand that suicide is never a good thing according to scripture. I'll end my comments with this; Jesus alone will judge every heart with His righteous judgment. I am thankful it is in His hands. Thanks for sharing!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 17, 2019)

alexandermsmith said:


> There is accidental suicide, where one who is suffering from a mental disorder does something without a proper understanding of the consequences, or intending to stop whatever it is before it becomes fatal (but is unable for whatever reason). Such a suicide lack the intent of self-murder and is a distinct category.
> 
> Deliberate suicide as a result of a severely deformed mental state is distinct from a simple suicide.



Alexander, what, exactly, would you consider as a mental disorder in this context? Does extreme melancholy count?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 17, 2019)

I would be of the opinion that if a professing Christian _who is of sound mind_ commits suicide then I would hold out little hope for them. In all but one of the six or so cases of professing Christians who have committed suicide that I have known the person had struggled with mental illness. In one case, the situation was not helped because the person in question was under the mistaken impression than depression was in and of itself a sin.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 17, 2019)

I have not been following the thread so apologies if someone has said something similar. A PCA minister put out this video regarding actual middle age crazy syndrome that hits men who do all sorts of things out of character. My niece's husband committed suicide out of the blue and it seems to fit the sort of profile he mentioned (it's been a year and more since I've viewed it). 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10160612797360038

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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 17, 2019)

Psychiatrist Dr Alan Thomas in his insightful book "Tackling mental illness together" (ivp) says "we should acknowledge that troubled souls suffering from mental illness are vulnerable to sinful temptations. They need compassion and help. Sin is not excused, but neither is coldness and lack of sympathy. There is no contradiction in blaming them for their sin while also expressing compassion and offering help. Rather the opposite - we should be both firm on responsibility for sin, and kind to them, supporting them ..." pp 98-99.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 17, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Psychiatrist Dr Alan Thomas in his insightful book "Tackling mental illness together" (ivp) says "we should acknowledge that troubled souls suffering from mental illness are vulnerable to sinful temptations. They need compassion and help. Sin is not excused, but neither is coldness and lack of sympathy. There is no contradiction in blaming them for their sin while also expressing compassion and offering help. Rather the opposite - we should be both firm on responsibility for sin, and kind to them, supporting them ..." pp 98-99.



That analysis seems balanced; if someone with severe depression commits suicide, their condition may be a mitigating factor, but the act of committing suicide is still a heinous sin.

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## alexandermsmith (Sep 18, 2019)

cmt72 said:


> I appreciate your taking the time to write back on this. I don't disagree with everything you say here. I completely understand that suicide is never a good thing according to scripture. I'll end my comments with this; Jesus alone will judge every heart with His righteous judgment. I am thankful it is in His hands. Thanks for sharing!



And just to reiterate: I'm not concerned with trying to figure out where individual Christians who have committed suicide are. My concern is how we approach this issue, pastorally, with those still alive.

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## alexandermsmith (Sep 18, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Alexander, what, exactly, would you consider as a mental disorder in this context? Does extreme melancholy count?





Stephen L Smith said:


> Psychiatrist Dr Alan Thomas in his insightful book "Tackling mental illness together" (ivp) says "we should acknowledge that troubled souls suffering from mental illness are vulnerable to sinful temptations. They need compassion and help. Sin is not excused, but neither is coldness and lack of sympathy. There is no contradiction in blaming them for their sin while also expressing compassion and offering help. Rather the opposite - we should be both firm on responsibility for sin, and kind to them, supporting them ..." pp 98-99.



I'm not an expert in the area of mental disorders so I'm not going to attempt to draw a line. Speaking theoretically- as we are here- it is sufficient for my thinking to acknowledge that i) mental illness is very real and ii) extreme mental illness can produce drastic psychological and personaliy changes and warp the individual's understanding and grasp of reality. It is not surprising that such conditions can lead to people killing themselves- either purposefully or accidentally. But people can also be preserved and we do have examples in Scripture which, whilst not totally analogous, would suggest that the Lord preserves His people through the most horrendous afflictions under which the temptation to self-harm is very strong (I'm thinking particularly of Legion, whilst, as I said, recognising this has the additional element of demonic possession).

Certainly we should show much support to our people suffering from these afflictions. But we also shouldn't allow the medical community to define our understanding of sin, suffering and what is and isn't "expected" or "permissable" for a Christian suffering mental illness.

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