# Ministers All?



## R. Scott Clark (Dec 15, 2007)

On the HB


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## Bygracealone (Dec 15, 2007)

Very refreshing! Thanks Scott. Keep up the good work brother!


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## Theoretical (Dec 16, 2007)

bygracealone said:


> Very refreshing! Thanks Scott. Keep up the good work brother!




After some coworkers were surprised I hadn't already preached at my church, and that "well, the apostles didn't have many qualifications, now did they?" - this is very refreshing.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Dec 16, 2007)

Great blog Dr. Clark. I preached a series of sermons on this topic about a year ago, and, not surprisingly, covered the same texts. What a wonder it is, even in some reformed churches, that we have left this precious Apostolic model for an egalitarian view of the Church and her members which robs her of her strength. May the Lord bless you for your efforts, dear sir, in speaking the truth, no matter how unpopular.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 16, 2007)

Dr. Clark - from what I understand - you would disagree with this definition of ministry:



> Ministry is the use of a person's gifts and talents, time and energy, in the service of others. It involves the exercise of roles designated by the Church to fulfill its mission in different works of service, such as in worship, teaching, leadership, the sacraments, welfare, and stewardship.



correct?


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## Pergamum (Dec 16, 2007)

What is preaching and how does it differ from telling others the Gospel, evangelizing (Gospelling) or witnessing....and WHO can do it?

What is the laity's role besides sitting passively?

All are not ministers, but do not all have a ministry in their particular spheres of life?


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## BJClark (Dec 16, 2007)

Scott,

Maybe I am mis-understanding what you are saying here, but in many respects it sounds like what the RCC teaches, that only those who work in an ordained capacity of The Church are supposed to minister to others.


Where does this fit with 1 Corinthians 12? Doesn't that speak to all members being needed to fullfill certain functions within the Body of Christ? Or is the rest of the body not to function in any capacity at all in ministering to others? 

1Cr 12:3-7



> Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.



Doesn't everyone have some Spiritual gift to be used to minister or serve others?

Who was being spoken to in Hebrews 5:12-14



> For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.



Now, I agree, that Titus and Timothy are concerning specific offices within the Body, and how they are to function, teaching and training others. But aren't they specific to equiping the Saints, so that the saints can go into the world and serve/minister where God has called them to serve/minister to those they come in contact with on a daily basis, be it the butcher the baker or candlestick maker? Aren't they supposed to be training the Saints so that the saints are prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks them the reason for their hope per 1 Peter 3?



> But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.


 
what of 1 Peter 4:10-11



> As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.






> Finally, on this point, how likely is it that Paul is saying that Timothy and the other officers are to train what was almost certainly a largely illiterate congregation to do the work of ministry?



I think it is VERY likely that they are being called to train a largely illiterate congregation to do the work of ministry...why? Because the congregation was illiterate to the things of God. Who else would train them up? Again isn't that what the pastor/teachers responsibility is...to make disciples within the congregation training them up in the things of God so they are prepared to fight the battles where they work in the world? Are they only going to train up those who are literate? 


Now, again, I may be mis-understanding what your saying in terms of being ministers, but it certainly sounds like you are agreeing with the RCC here, that only those ordained should minister to others the things of God. If a Pastor/Teacher has trained and discipled his congregation well, the congregation should be able to take that and minister to and make disciples of others, should they not?


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## Pergamum (Dec 16, 2007)

What is ministry? 

And is ministry different from THE ministry? 

It appears that all are gifted to minister in certain capacities, but only some are gifted to minister in an official role.


Every-member-ministry does not mean that every member is a pastor. 
Every-member-ministry is NOT every-member-EVERY-ministry. Only a few advocate this.


What are you advocating? The priesthood of a FEW of the believers?.....

Is this a case of the eye saying to the nose, "You are not needed?..."


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## BJClark (Dec 16, 2007)

Pergamum;



> Is this a case of the eye saying to the nose, "You are not needed?..."



This is what I understood him to be saying as well, which is why I was asking for clarification...


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## JonathanHunt (Dec 16, 2007)

Dr Clark

Gordon Cheng is Australian, not Austrian..


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi J. D.,

I don't know. I can't understand the quotation without context, without knowing who wrote it, why, and to whom. Can you fill in the picture a bit?

rsc



jdlongmire said:


> Dr. Clark - from what I understand - you would disagree with this definition of ministry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi Perg,

What is the biblical and confessional basis for claiming that every member is involved in ministry?

As I argued in the post, which you'll notice if you look at it again, Christians all have a vocation to fulfill. That vocation involves loving one's neighbor. I'm arguing that Christian service to one's neighbor, fulfilling the Christian vocation to loving one's neighbor does not need to be described as "ministry" to make it significant.

If we define "ministry" to refer primarily to the administration of the Word, sacraments, mercy, and discipline, then, no, every member is not active officially in these.

You will also notice that I make a distinction between special and general office.

Priesthood? If you read the essay again, you'll see that, in fact, I argue that the EMM model actually takes us back to the medieval view of priesthood. I'm arguing for the Reformation view of priesthood of all believers, which is distinct from EMM. I won't repeat it all here. 

The Roman view of priesthood makes human mediation, other than Christ's human nature, essential to the dispensation of grace (which they define as a substance) and to the memorial sacrifice of Christ. Of course the Reformation rejected all that but it did not reject the idea of mediation altogether. Christ is our Mediator before God and he has ordained ministers and office through which his favor (not substance) is mediated to the church in the ministry of Word and sacrament. Where the Roman view has the priests making things so, e.g. "I absolve you" the Reformed view has the minister speaking the Word of God which announces what is true according to the Word. Not all mediation is Roman. See Berkhof's Systematics on his definition of "means of grace" as "channels" (his word) through which the Spirit ordinarily operates. No one has ever accused Berkhof of being Romanist.

rsc

rsc



Pergamum said:


> What is ministry?
> 
> And is ministry different from THE ministry?
> 
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 16, 2007)

Thanks Jonathan! I knew something was wrong there but I couldn't see what it was. 

rsc



JonathanHunt said:


> Dr Clark
> 
> Gordon Cheng is Australian, not Austrian..


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi Bobbi,

It seems that there is a little bit of both. I've replied to the "Roman" question above.

I think it's unhelpful to use the word "ministry" to refer to the calling (as I mentioned above) to all Christians to fulfill their vocation to love and serve their neighbors. By referring to this as "ministry" and to the "work of the ministry" with the same word we equivocate and create confusion between the general and special office.

This is quite consistent with 1 Cor 12. The EMM model seems to want to flatten everything out rather than allowing the different parts of the body to be what they are. This is exactly the opposite of saying to one part, "I don't need you." It is saying, "I need you to be what you are." There are lots of gifts in the church that ought to be exercised appropriately but not every gift is preaching and administration of the sacraments, mercy, and discipline (which belong officially to the minister, elders, and deacons). 

It's also helpful to distinguish between the canonical and post-canonical contexts. We aren't in the apostolic, canonical period of (redemptive) history. We don't observe deacons traveling by being moved around by the Spirit. No ministers have put anyone to death or raised anyone to life. So, the question is what post-canonical official ministry and the fulfillment of every member vocation looks like. It probably looks like 1-2 Timothy, Titus, etc.

As to Hebrews 5, this is part of what I dislike about the EMM. It is premised, if you'll excuse me for being direct (blunt even), upon poor biblical exegesis. That passage is not given to establish the doctrine of EMM and EMM isn't a good and necessary consequence. The intent of that passage is to rebuke the hearers (assuming it was intended to be read, perhaps as a sermon to a congregation) for their lack of maturity, for giving in to the temptation to go back to Moses etc. The preacher uses a little hyperbole at the end of the passage to bring his point to a rhetorical climax. To seize on the word "teachers" there and to take it out of context this way does no credit to the EMM case. The same is true, it seems to me, with the appeal to 1 Peter 4. Clearly not everyone is to "speak" but all are to suffer as Christians. I think that's exactly what I'm saying.

As to what Timothy and Titus are to be doing, your question assumes the exegesis of Eph 4:11-12 that I reject. Ministers are called to preach, administer the sacraments, and to cooperate with the elders in discipline and with the deacons in the ministry of mercy to the end that Christians might become more mature, more Christ-like and that they might learn to love their neighbors more fully. Yes, as I wrote, Christians ought to give witness to the faith and their faith, but to describe the fulfilling of vocation and giving witness as "ministry" is not helpful but has more to do with the democratization of our culture since the 1820s and with the rise of American revivalism than it has with the Reformed confession or Scripture.

rsc


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## BJClark (Dec 16, 2007)

R. Scott Clark;



> As to what Timothy and Titus are to be doing, your question assumes the exegesis of Eph 4:11-12 that I reject. Ministers are called to preach, administer the sacraments, and to cooperate with the elders in discipline and with the deacons in the ministry of mercy to the end that Christians might become more mature, more Christ-like and that they might learn to love their neighbors more fully. Yes, as I wrote, Christians ought to give witness to the faith and their faith, but to describe the fulfilling of vocation and giving witness as "ministry" is not helpful but has more to do with the democratization of our culture since the 1820s and with the rise of American revivalism than it has with the Reformed confession or Scripture.



With all due respect, Why is not helpful for the believer to have his vocation called his ministry? If it is just a vocation, then how is he to really see himself serving God in that profession?

more importantly how does the term ministry in anyway shape or form take away from the importance of the Teaching Elders ministry of teaching and equiping the saints for their own calling out in the world in which they
serve God on a daily basis out on the front lines of battle? 

Again, maybe I am missing your meaning..but I don't see how calling someone's vocation their ministry in anyway takes away from the TE's ministry of teaching and equiping the saints for service, or how the things you listed as ministry are the only things a 'minister' of the Gospel does.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 16, 2007)

Dr. Clark, I believe you have addressed my original question through your dialog with the others here.

It seems to me there are distinctions between vocation as ministry, ministerial office or ministry _as_ vocation and ministry as service through good works. 

I tend to agree with you that vocation as _ministry_ is a stretch - it is true that all we do should glorify God, but glorifying God is not ministry _per se_. For example, working as a paid church secretary is not a ministry (with apologies to church admins everywhere!), although it may glorify God. So in that sense, every member *is not* a minister.

Now I do believe that service through good works *is* ministry. Particularly upon examination of the root of the word - ministry. All Christians do indeed " execute(s) the commands of another, esp. of a master": specifically *the* Master. In that sense every member (of the church)* is* a minister inasmuch as they fulfill the general calling of the servant.

Now, as far as vocational ministry and ministerial office is concerned - I think Scripture is clear that not all are called or qualified to the ministry of the word or servant leadership. So in that sense, every member *is not* a minister.

My point is I don't think there is a clear enough distinction to toss out the "every member a minister" paradigm. That is - every member may not be a Minister (in the formal sense as officers of the church), but they are ministers in the sense of serving one another (the church) through love.

Blessings!


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## Pergamum (Dec 16, 2007)

Piper on "Why the Saints Minister to the Body." 

This sermon concerns how every member does, in fact, minister and can be called a minister of the various graces given him or her - though all are not Ministers in the sense of being ordained. 

All saints are given some gifts and are to minister with those gifts, but all are not given the gift of teaching as a pastor, elder, etc:

Why the Saints Minister to the Body :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library



A quote:

_Is Every Member to Minister to the Body of Christ?

But before we can take up either question I need to justify the assumption that every member is to minister to the body of Christ. Why do I think that? 

The answer is found in verse 7 and verses 11–12. In verse 7 Paul talks about how each individual Christian is gifted by Christ with various measures of grace; and in verses 11–12 he talks about how the church is gifted by Christ with certain ministering people who equip the saints to minister to the body. 

Every Believer Is Gifted by Christ with Varied Grace 

Verse 7: "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Here the focus is on Christ's giving each believer varied grace. You are uniquely graced with Christ's gift. This means that you are not an accident in the body of Christ. When you received grace, it was because Christ gave it in a measure suited to his good purposes for you and for the body. 

This does not yet prove that every member is to be a minister to the body. But it does lay the foundation for it when it comes in verses 11–12. "Each of us" is given grace not according to the measure of our worth or merit, but according to the measure that Christ decided to give. Romans 12:6 says almost the same thing: "We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us." Our different giftedness is owing to sovereign grace, bestowed according to the will of Christ, the head. The Head knows what is good for the body. 

The Church Is Gifted with People in Varied Offices 

Now verses 11–12 make the point of every-member ministry explicit. After describing (in vv. 8–10) how Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven like a triumphant general with his wagons full of booty, ready to distribute it to his troops, Paul says, "And He [Christ] gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." 

This is different from verse 7. There the point was that every believer is gifted by Christ with varied grace. Here the point is that the church is gifted by Christ with people in varied offices: "some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers [probably one office]." These gifts to the church—these people—are charged with equipping the saints, that is, the believers. (All believers are saints in the New Testament; they are set apart for God.) 

The Need for Equipping 

The word for equipping usually means fixing something that's broken (as when nets are torn, Matthew 4:21) or supplying something that is lacking (as in 1 Thessalonians 3:10, "We desire to supply, or equip, what is lacking in your faith"). So the point of verses 11–12 is that Christ not only gives varied grace to each believer in the church, he also gives leaders to the church whose job is to repair what's broken and supply what's lacking in the believers. 

We will talk more about this next week. But think how significant this is for the nature of the church. Each of you is personally gifted by Christ with varied grace, and yet not so perfectly that you are not in need of fixing and supply by apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. No one may say: "I am gifted and graced by Christ himself, I have no need of apostolic authority (which I believe comes through the New Testament), or prophetic encouragement, or evangelistic training, or pastoral nurture, or human teachers to apply the Bible to my life." This text makes plain that all of you are gifted with a measure of grace, and all of you are in some measure lacking the improvement of grace. The one proves that you are vitally needed by the church, and the other proves that the church is vitally needed by you. 

For the Work of Service/Ministry 

But the main point still hasn't been made. Verse 12 goes on to say that the leaders equip the saints for a specific purpose, namely, "for the work of service," or, "for the work of ministry." The fixing of what is broken and the supplying of what is lacking in the saints is not an end in itself. The leaders don't stop then and say, "O good, now we have fixed and supplied saints. The work is done." No, the fixing and supplying are meant to make the saints into servants, or ministers. 

So this finally is the justification of the assumption I started with, namely, that every saint—every Christian—is a minister. This is why today's message can be titled, "Why the Saints Minister to the Body," and next week's message can be titled, "How the Saints Minister to the Body." _


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## Pergamum (Dec 16, 2007)

On a practical note: 

Christians are often passive. There are many "pew potatoes" who think that they have fulfilled their Christian duty by sitting through a Sunday lecture. They respect their pastors and do, in fact, listen to them. But they are trained that ministry is something that the elite do and they gain a "that's not my job" approach.

But the NT always stresses the duties of all believers. Prayer is a type of ministry, encouraging others, etc are all ways in which the body builds itself up.

It seems that one of the aims of the Pauline verse about the building up of the church is that EVERY member has a role. That role might be different, but none are unimportant.


No one wants to "flatten" this out and make everyone do the same ministry. Instead, a good church will help each member realize his role and how the Spirit has gifted him.

I certainly do want to stress that all the saints are gifted and have a role. 

Respect of the high office of pastor/elder need not come at trying to remind the "lower" members that "No, you are not a minister." 

"But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

And there is nothing wrong with calling this "ministry". Is prayer not a type of ministry? And who is to do this? Every saint.

To minister is to serve. Who is to do this? NOt all do this the same way, but all do minister/serve the church do they not?


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## Blue Tick (Dec 16, 2007)

That was a great essay Dr.Clark!


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## jaybird0827 (Dec 17, 2007)

Blue Tick said:


> That was a great essay Dr.Clark!


 
 Thank you for the HB!


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## KMK (Dec 17, 2007)

Amen and amen, Dr. Clark! 



> The “every member ministry” model hangs by a very thin biblical reed. It depends upon how one reads Eph 4:11-12:
> 
> And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ…(ESV)
> 
> ...



The same could be said for those who eliminate the comma as well, could it not?



> I’ve heard it argued that Acts 8 reflects the apostolic approach to “every member ministry” in as much as the church was scattered and “those who were scattered went about preaching the word.” One difficulty with the application of this narrative to this question is that the only Christians named in the narrative are special officers (Stephen and Philip). The first example of this preaching to which Luke turns is Philip. It is not at all clear that the intent of his narrative is to supply a ground for the “every member” ministry model.



In order to be consistant, wouldn't those who hold to the EMM need to also be continuationists?



> Therefore, I think it’s helpful to speak about the witness of the laity to the faith (that which is objectively revealed in the Word and confessed by the Reformed Churches) and their witness to their faith, i.e. to their subjective appropriation of the biblical faith. Yes, we should speak to our neighbors, friends, and co-workers about the faith and our faith, but we should distinguish lay witness from the official proclamation of the gospel. *God the Spirit is free to act through popular witness or public proclamation, but as has been noted, it is to the latter that he has attached promises.*



Excellent point! By honoring the biblical model for preaching we do not diminish the value of the witness of individual believers! They are two seperate things.


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## DavidGGraves (Dec 17, 2007)

I think one element that is lost in tranlsation from Dr. Clark's Post is his use of vocation. He is using this in its older sense of calling. And thus a persons calling or vocation is from God. They do not need a "ministry" to give it value. It has its value because God has called them to that and thus some are called to the ministry of the Word and Sacrament, while others are called to be a Mom. Both are inherently valued and esteemed by the Lord. We do not need to call them both "ministry" to give them value. They have value because God has called the individual to that vocation.


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