# Wrestle a girl



## TimV (Feb 17, 2011)

So what would you advise your son? I know what I would do since I've already let mine go against a girl in a grappling tourney. Still seems a bit strange, though.

Iowa wrestler defaults rather than face girl - Welcome to Charter.net


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## Skyler (Feb 17, 2011)

I wouldn't wrestle a girl.


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## ericfromcowtown (Feb 17, 2011)

My first thought is that coed sports of this sort are not appropriate and that I'd advise my son to default. I'm interested in hearing what others say, though.


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## JML (Feb 17, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> My first thought is that coed sports of this sort are not appropriate


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## Skyler (Feb 17, 2011)

Aside from the obvious--the possibility of sexual temptation--I personally wouldn't wrestle/hit/fight/etc. a girl/woman unless there was absolutely no alternative. I try to cultivate a more (possibly antiquated, but still, I think, appreciated) chivalrous attitude.


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2011)

I'd say that unless the boy was trying to protect _himself_, say from lust from closeness in a singlet to girl, he wouldn't have to defaut. She signed up for it--she doesn't need his protection or permission. I think it's fine to default if the touching makes one uncomfortable, but not because one's afraid of hurting his opponent or if one's afraid to lose to a "weaker" opponent. The link did not explain why he objected.

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------




ericfromcowtown said:


> My first thought is that coed sports of this sort are not appropriate and that I'd advise my son to default. I'm interested in hearing what others say, though.


 
Oh, and I totally agree with you! My thoughts are based on her already being permitted.


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## Marrow Man (Feb 17, 2011)

One thought immediately came to mind: Andy Kaufman.


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## Berean (Feb 17, 2011)

Totally inappropriate. The comments are interesting on this article. I'd never heard of anything similar before. 

Wrestler defaults against Cassy Herkelman for 'family beliefs'


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## ericfromcowtown (Feb 17, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> One thought immediately came to mind: Andy Kaufman.


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## Oecolampadius (Feb 17, 2011)

Has it always been a practice in wrestling to have boys and girls wrestle each other? Or, is this perhaps brought on by the egalitarian feminist philosophy of the "modern" era?


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## Curt (Feb 17, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> One thought immediately came to mind: Andy Kaufman.


Another thought came to my mind: Eric Liddell.

I do not think it appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in a physical encounter for sport. 1 Tim. 5:1-2 also come to mind:
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.​
It's difficult to maintain purity when reaching for a girl's crotch in order to throw her on a mat and mount her, or to reach across her chest to bring her down.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------




Oecolampadius said:


> Has it always been a practice in wrestling to have boys and girls wrestle each other? Or, is this perhaps brought on by the egalitarian feminist philosophy of the "modern" era?



feminism.


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2011)

High school athlete refuses to wrestle female opponent – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
here's an article that goes a bit deeper.


> "As a matter of conscience and my faith, I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner," Joel Northrup said in a written statement,


 and


> "I have a tremendous amount of respect for Cassy and Megan and their accomplishments. However, wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times. ... It is unfortunate that I have been placed in a situation not seen in most of the high school sports in Iowa."


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## Tripel (Feb 17, 2011)

I'd probably allow my son to wrestle her, since I wouldn't want his aspirations to be shot down simply because he was paired against the girl. I'd probably just tell him that it's his choice, but if he decides to go through with it, pin her as quickly as you can and move on.


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2011)

I guess I'm stuck in a double standard; I'd allow my son to wrestle her (if he wanted) but I'd NEVER let my daughter wrestle.


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## AThornquist (Feb 17, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> One thought immediately came to mind: Andy Kaufman.


 
I YouTubed that to get the joke.  That was ridiculous. 

To the OP: I agree with others here that males and females wrestling in this manner is simply wrong. That is a perfect way to give opportunity to the flesh, plus I don't think this activity is representative of biblical femininity in any sense. I am thankful and glad that the boy in question chose not to compete.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 17, 2011)

Nope, wouldn't do it. That's why our son didn't take Krav Maga (they'd want him to spar and grapple with a girl on a regular basis). Women are not men. But society is doing everything it can to make them interchangable. Don't cooperate with this - they are to be honoured and treasured, not pinned. Think abour your wife taking this up as a 'hobby'. No way is some guy in a body suit going to pin my bride, why would you want your son to do so?


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## AThornquist (Feb 17, 2011)

Here's a question to folks who would let their sons compete in this situation: is protecting your son's wrestling aspirations more important than his purity? Seriously - if he is getting close and physical with a girl that day, what will he think of that night? Perhaps something very similar.

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------




kvanlaan said:


> Think abour your wife taking this up as a 'hobby'. No way is some guy in a body suit going to pin my bride, why would you want your son to do so?



Good point, brother. Just kind of thinking out loud here, but if I would _never_ want my daughter or future wife to be pinned down and manhandled like this, how dare I ever think it is okay for someone else's daughter or future wife to be handled this way?


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> So what would you advise your son? I know what I would do since I've already let mine go against a girl in a grappling tourney. Still seems a bit strange, though.
> 
> Iowa wrestler defaults rather than face girl - Welcome to Charter.net


 
I think he made the right decision.

What makes me sad is the girl's rejection of her own femininity.


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## jwright82 (Feb 17, 2011)

I tend to side with the don't wrestle her crowd but I was raised that way. I was raised as a southern gentleman so I always push in chairs and open doors for girls. But that said I wonder if we could divide this question up into two seperate considerations married and unmarried people. I would say that hands down the only person a married man or women should be wrestling is their spouse. An unmarried person needs to realy asses the situation and figure out what the most Godly course of action is, for them in small cases I would chaulk this up as a freedom of conscience thing.


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## Skyler (Feb 17, 2011)

jwright82 said:


> An unmarried person needs to realy asses the situation and figure out what the most Godly course of action is, for them in small cases I would chaulk this up as a freedom of conscience thing.



Agreed, and I don't think we're laying down a strict rule so much as saying Really Bad Idea.


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## AThornquist (Feb 17, 2011)

jwright82 said:


> I would say that hands down the only person a married man or women should be wrestling is their spouse.



Only in highly moderated competition.


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## Skyler (Feb 17, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that hands down the only person a married man or women should be wrestling is their spouse.
> ...


 
I would not want to be the moderator. Just sayin'.


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## jwright82 (Feb 17, 2011)

Skyler said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> > An unmarried person needs to realy asses the situation and figure out what the most Godly course of action is, for them in small cases I would chaulk this up as a freedom of conscience thing.
> ...


 
Exactly and I could not agree nore Jonathan.

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AThornquist said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that hands down the only person a married man or women should be wrestling is their spouse.
> ...


 
I am not saying that husbands and wifes should hurt eachother only that the only person a married person should get hot, sweety, and gropy with is their spouse.


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## Tripel (Feb 17, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> Here's a question to folks who would let their sons compete in this situation: is protecting your son's wrestling aspirations more important than his purity? Seriously - if he is getting close and physical with a girl that day, what will he think of that night?



I don't see this as an issue of purity. My reservations about a boy wrestling a girl is much more about the basic issue of fighting a female than it is anything sexual relating to the physical contact. 
Is it possible for impure thoughts and feelings to result from said physical contact? Sure, I'm certain there are some boys for whom that may be an issue. But I don't think that's the majority of cases. Even in my teenage years, I can guarantee you that sexuality would have been the last thing on my mind in that ring. I'd be doing my best to get that match over with as soon as possible, and prepare myself for the onslaught of jokes I'd get from the rest of guys about how I had to fight a girl.


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## AThornquist (Feb 17, 2011)

Tripel said:


> I don't see this as an issue of purity. My reservations about a boy wrestling a girl is much more about the basic issue of fighting a female than it is anything sexual relating to the physical contact.
> Is it possible for impure thoughts and feelings to result from said physical contact? Sure, I'm certain there are some boys for whom that may be an issue. But I don't think that's the majority of cases. Even in my teenage years, I can guarantee you that sexuality would have been the last thing on my mind in that ring. I'd be doing my best to get that match over with as soon as possible, and prepare myself for the onslaught of jokes I'd get from the rest of guys about how I had to fight a girl.



I see. Thanks for expanding on your line of thinking.


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## JM (Feb 17, 2011)

I've rolled with women before in judo and jujitsu, many times...it is very uncomfortable. You never know what is acceptable so you end up getting choked and arm barred. 

You have nothing to gain by wrestling with a women.


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## EverReforming (Feb 17, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> Good point, brother. Just kind of thinking out loud here, but if I would _never_ want my daughter or future wife to be pinned down and manhandled like this, how dare I ever think it is okay for someone else's daughter or future wife to be handled this way?



Physical assault can be a very serious threat to many people. If one's wife/daughter were to be forced upon unwillingly, they're likely to find themselves in a position where such skills may be necessary, and having trained against a 200 lb man can better prepare one against resisting a 200 lb man than training with another 130 lb woman.

However, the situation from the OP is regarding someone doing this as sport and not for self-defense training. If it were me, I too would probably have issues about it within the context of the given setting. Within a self-defense course, as long as everything is kept professional and you're not alone with the instructor, I would have less an issue with it.


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## Fly Caster (Feb 17, 2011)

Deut. 25:11-12 comes to mind. A little different situation, but the principle still applies.

The Geneva Bible comment reads-- _"This law imputes that godly shamefacedness is preferred: for it is a horrible thing to see a woman past shame."_

I would want no son of mine to have any part in it.


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## mvdm (Feb 17, 2011)

At the risk of sounding impolite, I'd like to ask those who think this is a temptation issue: would it make a difference if the girl is structured such that she is not the least bit attractive to the young man?


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## AThornquist (Feb 17, 2011)

mvdm said:


> At the risk of sounding impolite, I'd like to ask those who think this is a temptation issue: would it make a difference if the girl is structured such that she is not the least bit attractive to the young man?



 I'm afraid to answer.


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## Theogenes (Feb 17, 2011)

Only after they get married...


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## seajayrice (Feb 17, 2011)

You gotta be joking. How about boxing a woman, it’s all good.


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## mvdm (Feb 17, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > At the risk of sounding impolite, I'd like to ask those who think this is a temptation issue: would it make a difference if the girl is structured such that she is not the least bit attractive to the young man?
> ...



I don't blame you. I was afraid to ask. 

I'm just thinking: could a man really have a *temptation problem* if he was given a golden opportunity to employ a choke-hold on, for example, a Roseann Barr or a Bella Abzug?


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## Grillsy (Feb 17, 2011)

Why is no one worried about cooties?


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## TimV (Feb 17, 2011)

Cooties!!!

The time David went to a tourney and a girl was there it was just hilarious. He was so confused on the mat. Afterwards he said he couldn't figure out which parts he could touch, and his facial expressions were classic.


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## Marrow Man (Feb 17, 2011)

mvdm said:


> I'm just thinking: could a man really have a *temptation problem* if he was given a golden opportunity to employ a choke-hold on, for example, a Roseann Barr or a Bella Abzug?



You should watch the Youtube video of Andy Kaufman wrestling the woman.


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## mvdm (Feb 17, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just thinking: could a man really have a *temptation problem* if he was given a golden opportunity to employ a choke-hold on, for example, a Roseann Barr or a Bella Abzug?
> ...



I am quite familiar with it. And love it. Hence, my line of questioning.


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## smhbbag (Feb 17, 2011)

I _hated_ even playing baseball with girls (scared to throw inside pitches, break up double-plays, make a hard tag, etc.) - this would be out of the question for me.

The coach of our varsity girls basketball team regularly asked male varsity players to participate in his practices. He wanted his girls to learn to deal with opponents who have a big advantage over them in size, speed and roughness. I did it because he asked me, but soon I stopped even that. Even though I was a guard, I practiced against them at post positions, and playing properly involves far too much contact (and roughness).

I would forfeit the match. But if somehow forced, I would have a strong, fleshly impulse to use that match to convince her that she should never get on the mat again. It seems like it's an all or nothing deal. Wrestling half-way isn't an option.


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## seajayrice (Feb 17, 2011)

Truly remarkable, a question such as this would appear on the “Puritan Board.” Only in a godless postmodern community could one be confused to this extent.


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## Skyler (Feb 17, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> Truly remarkable, a question such as this would appear on the “Puritan Board.” Only in a godless postmodern community could one be confused to this extent.



I'm curious as to why you hang around if you feel the Puritan Board is such a godless postmodern community.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 17, 2011)

I actually had to face this question during Jr. High. My son was smart. He purposed in his heart to totally avoid it. And it wouldn't matter what she looked like. A girl is a girl. And we have hormones and such. Have you seen some of the positions those guys get in? 

Plus, it is a contact sport. My sons arm was broken in a match. I am totally opposed to mixing girls and guys in this event. Now if you want to talk tennis, well, that is another thing.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 17, 2011)

> > Truly remarkable, a question such as this would appear on the “Puritan Board.” Only in a godless postmodern community could one be confused to this extent.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious as to why you hang around if you feel the Puritan Board is such a godless postmodern community.



I think he's saying that he's confused that anyone would be OK with it. He drank the kool-aid and is now under the RPE (Regulative Principle of Everything).

Also, boxing a woman? That's simply not on. Striking a woman for sport is not something I can stomach. Two men striking each other is a matching of equals, though I am not sure that it is an appropriate use of the gifts given to an image-bearer of God. A man matched against a woman is what should be a protector of a daughter of God striking down said daughter. How does one congratulate themselves for KO'ing a woman?


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## au5t1n (Feb 17, 2011)

The Puritanboard is not a godless postmodern community, but the members of it live in one and we have all to some degree or another been affected by it. I agree with CJ's point. 50+ years ago this would not have been a question. No offense intended to anyone. That's just the way I see it.

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------




PuritanCovenanter said:


> Now if you want to talk tennis, well, that is another thing.



One of my first thoughts upon reading this thread was that even in tennis, a sport where the players do not contact each other at all, there are a different number of sets in a match for women than for men; and yet here young men and women are wrestling each other. Personally, I'd sooner see equal sets in tennis than men wrestling women.


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## py3ak (Feb 18, 2011)

EverReforming said:


> However, the situation from the OP is regarding someone doing this as sport and not for self-defense training. If it were me, I too would probably have issues about it within the context of the given setting. Within a self-defense course, as long as everything is kept professional and you're not alone with the instructor, I would have less an issue with it.



That is a very important distinction, and I agree with you on it.

How come no one has mentioned the number one reason not to wrestle a girl? If you lose, you will never live it down.


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## Romans922 (Feb 18, 2011)

py3ak said:


> EverReforming said:
> 
> 
> > However, the situation from the OP is regarding someone doing this as sport and not for self-defense training. If it were me, I too would probably have issues about it within the context of the given setting. Within a self-defense course, as long as everything is kept professional and you're not alone with the instructor, I would have less an issue with it.
> ...



Probably because that isn't the #1 reason not to do it (that is a peer pressure reason not a principled reason).


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## Tripel (Feb 18, 2011)

austinww said:


> 50+ years ago this would not have been a question.



What does that matter? I realize a lot of people look back 50+ years fondly as the golden years, but puh-leaze. Despite societal regression in some areas, there has been plenty of progress in others.


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## Fly Caster (Feb 18, 2011)

Tripel said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > 50+ years ago this would not have been a question.
> ...



Yes, there have been good progresses, but the progress of cultural Androgyny ain't one of them.


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## Skyler (Feb 18, 2011)

austinww said:


> 50+ years ago this would not have been a question.



50+ years ago, in many parts of the country, racism would not have been a question either.


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 18, 2011)

The answer is simple. Move to Texas and will never have to wrestle a female.


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## au5t1n (Feb 18, 2011)

Tripel said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > 50+ years ago this would not have been a question.
> ...


 
I think the problem is I am not referring to just the state of things in America around 50 years ago, but the idea of men and women wrestling for sport everywhere for most of history 50 years and farther ago. So in other words, I am not talking about just one period in one place.

Also it's not that "long ago" is considered a golden age in every respect, but that morals have disintegrated since then in almost every area.

Maybe if I were a fully convinced postmillennialist I would have said, "500 years from now this won't even be a question."


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## Tripel (Feb 18, 2011)

Austin,
I get what you're saying and appreciate the clarification. I'm just pointing out that an argument based upon how it was in the past assumes that the past must have been right. Even if it was a certain way for the vast majority of history, that doesn't prove that history was correct.

That said, I'm not arguing on behalf of women and men being lumped together in competitive wrestling. Rather, I firmly think they should be separate. But my argument has nothing to do with past generations or the notion of sexual temptation. My argument is for respect of the different genders and the general fairness of pairing men against women.

In this specific case (and I don't know all the details, so I could be wrong) it seems like this is an odd occurrence that the boy be paired against a girl. And if my son was competing in a major tournament and was unfortunate enough to be paired against a girl (for all the weirdness that it brings), I'd allow him to wrestle her so that he can continue in the tournament. I'd allow it granted that my son signed up for wrestling team that did not anticipate having to wrestle girls. But since those girls signed up for it, and their parents are clearly in favor of it, I'd let him. And then afterwards I would firmly advocate for a change in team/school/district/state policy that puts girls and boys in the ring together.


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## Phil D. (Feb 18, 2011)

I guess you'll just have to put me down as a prude with respect to this kind of thing. I personally don't think it is morally appropriate for (unmarried ) men and women to engage in a full contact, grappling sport like wrestling.


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## SRoper (Feb 18, 2011)

In middle school we had a girl on the wrestling team. It was quite controversial.


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## Pergamum (Feb 18, 2011)

I just got an annoying email forward about domestic violence a week ago. 

It is funny that a culture which promotes wearing colored ribbons to stop domestic violence, and will badger their friends to "forward this email to 10 other people within 24 hours", etc, will promote a situation where aggression and close bodily contact with women is encouraged. I am sure there is correlation even if not a causation between rising rates of violence towards women and our being able to treat them either merely as sexual objects (due to the pill and wide-spread promiscuity) or competitors (due to competition in the workplace and now, competition on the mat). 

Chivalry is officially dead when a young boy has to choose between losing a match (and yearly win-loss statistics are huge to a young man) and getting a girl in a full-nelson while wearing spandex in front of hundreds of people, which both may mar his sensibilities about protecting girls and also anger him at the ridiculousness of the situation, and embarrass him due to the close and very public contact he is having with a female (a thing that does not go unnoticed) while wearing only spandex.


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## JM (Feb 18, 2011)

I had to teach guard passes to women in the past, it was very difficult. I was a new believer at the time and eventually got out of teaching all together.
[video=youtube;JhwkxXNPwEQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhwkxXNPwEQ[/video]


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## AThornquist (Feb 18, 2011)

That is quite invasive, Jason.


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Feb 18, 2011)

I'd wrestle her if she was ugly. =)


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## AThornquist (Feb 18, 2011)

awretchsavedbygrace said:


> I'd wrestle her if she was ugly. =)


 
She wouldn't let _you_ wrestle her unless she were ugly.


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Feb 18, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> awretchsavedbygrace said:
> 
> 
> > I'd wrestle her if she was ugly. =)
> ...


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## Pergamum (Feb 18, 2011)

I just noticed the new "Like" feature....is that like a thumbs up on steroids?


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 18, 2011)

The sexuality issue is important, but unfortunately our culture is so sexually charged and teen sex is so pervasive that in this situation the issue of potential sexually inappropriate touch seems almost moot.

As I see it, the broader underlying matter is that women are conceived of and treated as if they are something other than persons to be cherished, protected, provided for, and nurtured. When you think of them as just another body to be competed with and conquered, then that fundamentally and inherently makes no room for seeing them as "special" by virtue of their gender. We see the effects of this whenever you see a man treat a woman in utilitarian manner, assaulting a woman, forcing a woman to work outside the home, or abandoning her. In my line of work I almost weekly encounter males who have grown up having no sense of obligation to provide for or protect a woman. (So much so that I've been told more than once, "If she wants to eat she better get a job.")

Our females can't have it both ways - they can't claim on every front to be a competitor with men and then complain when they are in fact treated as competitors (with all that entails). Our males cannot be expected to think they owe their females their protection and provision when they are encouraged by every cultural force to consider them something to be bested in every field of endeavor. 

The church needs to really step up the game on articulating and modeling and instilling biblical manhood and womanhood. 

Thus I applaud the young man for realizing that it is important to not engage in combative behavior with a young woman. (Even if she's asking for it.)


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## kvanlaan (Feb 18, 2011)

I hate to dog-pile on Ben's point here (in a positive way) but this sort of thing also promotes violence against women. I've always thought it was wierd how there is to be no differentiation between sexes and yet there is violence against "women". There's violence, nothing more. If there are no more absolutes when it comes to not striking a female, why should I not be as ready to deck a girl in a bar fight as a guy? They are the same thing, apparently.

And for those who are scoffing at the '50 years ago this wouldn't have been a question' statements, we are talking about this issue among gospel-understanding Christians, not among society in general. It should not have been, nor should it be, a question.


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## Gforce9 (Feb 18, 2011)

awretchsavedbygrace said:


> I'd wrestle her if she was ugly. =)


 
I had a mouthful of Cap'n Crunch and milk when I read this.........not good.....


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## toddpedlar (Feb 19, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> Truly remarkable, a question such as this would appear on the “Puritan Board.” Only in a godless postmodern community could one be confused to this extent.


 
I agree that there should be no confusion or openness to the idea of a boy accepting a wrestling match with a girl. However, my concern is with your slanderous statement. 

So, CJ, feel free to leave. Nobody's forcing you to stay here. The exit door is wide open and perhaps you'd best take this opportunity not to be polluted by the likes of godless, postmodern people like us.


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## Timothy William (Feb 19, 2011)

I wrestled a woman once, in Army Basic Training. The wrestling was usually men against men, women against women, however our platoon had an odd number of males and females, and I was about the weakest of the men, she the strongest of the women. I still defeated her easily though. I am surprised that there are many competitive male-female fights for that reason alone. I didn't enjoy the experience, though I wasn't the least bit tempted to think lustfully about her.


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## Jared (Feb 20, 2011)

mvdm said:


> At the risk of sounding impolite, I'd like to ask those who think this is a temptation issue: would it make a difference if the girl is structured such that she is not the least bit attractive to the young man?



I was actually going to say the same thing. I know this stereotype probably wouldn't always ring true, but I would assume that most of the girls that are wrestling would look more "butch".


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