# Pagans and Cut Flowers



## ChristopherPaul (Dec 20, 2006)

As disciples of Christ, how are we to view cut flowers in our homes knowing that Pagans misuse God's creation in their worship?

Sufism and Universal Worship:


> It is an uncomplicated altar, featuring just 10 candles and almost as many types of scriptures.
> The three worship leaders are dressed in white, sitting with others on folding chairs in a semi-circle. There is a simple bouquet of cut flowers, and soothing background music that disappears as the monthly ritual begins.



It is advised to give flowers to "Saint Expedite"


Flowers are brought to the altar during a Druid Worship Ceremony:


> Depending on the season, people may bring fresh cut flowers or recently harvested fruits and vegetables to be used as sacrifices, but most of the time our rituals, like those of the Reformed Druids before us, use small branches cut from trees. These do not contain enough psychic energy to be very effective sacrifices by themselves, but they make an excellent Focus of attention for sending the energies raised by singing, music and other artistic offerings by the congregation. These energies constitute the real sacrifice in our ceremonies.


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## Kevin (Dec 20, 2006)

The anti-christmas brigade better not get ahold of this or wives will never get flowers from husbands again.


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## polemic_turtle (Dec 20, 2006)

Hmm, this pattern of inference is almost as good as my abuse of "Give not thy strength to women". :-|


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## heartoflesh (Dec 20, 2006)

This is a joke, isn't it?


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

Hey I'm a guy and I'm not afraid to admit. I LOVE FLOWERS!!!

"What a lovely thing a rose is"&"We have much to hope from the flowers."Sherlock Holmes in A.C. Doyle's "The Naval Treaty"


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 20, 2006)

Merry Christmas


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## bradofshaw (Dec 20, 2006)

Did pagans ever use the festivus pole in their worship, or am I still good?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 20, 2006)

I knew when I saw this earlier exactly what was being led to...and you are wrong.


There is a difference between having a tree in your home and having a Christmass Tree in your home. You can have cut flowers, just do not partake in the ceremonies etc. involved. The Christmass Tree is a particular, decorated in a certain manner, certain ceremonies ensue (placing gifts under, other particular greenry in the home, etc). Having an ornamental tree in a corner is different. Thus the difference also between having cut flowers in a vase as decor or for scent, and having it there for meditation, ceremony, particular placement, etc.


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

This thread is  and 

Sorry to quote Rodney King but, "Can't we all just get along?"

There are strongly felt, logical arguments on both polar opposite sides of this thing. 

Let's not goad each other ok?

PLEASE? Pretty please?

(And I'm talking to all of us including myself.)


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 20, 2006)

MrMerlin777 said:


> This thread is  and


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 20, 2006)

If pagans created a special day where they place flowers in a vase, then should we refrain from doing likewise?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 20, 2006)

There is a difference between a pagan taking an everyday common occurance (yes, in many homes it is) and thinking there is religious signifigance in it vs. a Christian taking a pagan celebration and all it's trappings and calling it good (ie., well, they used it to worship so and so, but we'll just rename it and give "new" meanings to the same day/ceremony/items).


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## kvanlaan (Dec 20, 2006)

What if Hitler had liked Corn Flakes?

(it's not supposed to be a non sequitur, but I guess it sounds that way)

Today, if we...

Eat Corn Flakes: OK. 

Eat Corn Flakes while coming up with a "final solution" to the "Jewish question": very, very, evil.


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

MrMerlin777 said:


> This thread is  and
> 
> Sorry to quote Rodney King but, "Can't we all just get along?"
> 
> ...




PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE?

I know I don't need to reply to these posts and all. That I can bow out of this and not participate is very true. But there is somthing that is concerning me about the whole spirit of this (and other) threads on this board (particullarly since the whole season has started) It seems to me (and please correct if I'm wrong) that there are brethren (and thats what we are folks, brethren) on "both sides of the aisle" of certain issues that keep posting certain threads to bait folks into a fight about the same (in my view usually petty) issues over and over and over again. I find this all very disheartening(sp?) We're Christians! (supposed to be anyway to be on this board) And we all hold (supposedly also to be on this board) to the doctrines of God's sovereign grace. In my humble opinion we shouldn't be goading each other into fights over side issues. It's uncharitable, and In my humble opinion most un-Christian.

This is how we know we've passed from death to life, that we love the brethren..........

I'll step off of my soap box now.... 

Ban me Mods if you want but it truly (yes truly) hurts my heart to see people not just debating but obviously baiting people into heated arguments on the same issues over and over.

Pray for me brethren.

You will remain in my prayers.. I think this board on the whole is a good work.

Grace to you all.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 20, 2006)

Donald,

Don't you think my post defines, summarizes, and effectively kills the entire thread?  

Yes, levity is the way to approach this one, otherwise we'll need a very high-powered microscope to split hairs this finely.


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

kvanlaan said:


> Donald,
> 
> Don't you think my post defines, summarizes, and effectively kills the entire thread?
> 
> Yes, levity is the way to approach this one, otherwise we'll need a very high-powered microscope to split hairs this finely.



I appologize if I seemed to be answering your post. I was really posting as a response to the thread as a whole.

And yes your post does effectively define the thread. As far as killing it however, probably, until the next thread, and the next, and the next ad nauseam.

I do agree that levity is probably a good way to approach it though.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 20, 2006)

No offense taken, I know none was intended and I've got to say that I agree 100%. I was just telling another member the other day that we too often sharpen our swords by means of our brothers' and sisters' intellect (good) and then once they're ready for battle, we have a tendency to stick the pointy end into said brothers and sisters (bad).

There are definitely questions _similar_ to this that need to be asked, and I think it was CP's intent to try and define where we should stand as believers, not to see who among us is the most Pharasaetically (sp?) "holy" among us. We just tend to take things a little too far and our human (and sinful) nature gets the best of us; we don't stop at doctrinal answers, we throw in our gut feelings as well, and then the problems start. 

I like to just keep it simple, hence the Corn Flakes example; it can be applied to many situations. Though it may be doctrinally unsound and lacking in many and sundry ways, it works for me as a layman in the real world. Maybe one day I'll get me one of those snazzy dee-grees in theology (I'd actually _really_ like to someday) but for now, common sense and a Bible does just fine. 

That's one thing (among others) that I like about your post, *lots* of common sense.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 20, 2006)

I am asking an honest question. No fight intended. At what point do we stop letting Pagans determine what we can and can't do?

Perhaps people will come into my house, see cut flowers, and get the wrong idea?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 20, 2006)

How about thinking of it this way...at what point will we obey or not obey God?


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 20, 2006)

kvanlaan said:


> That's one thing (among others) that I like about your post, *lots* of common sense.



Cheers. Thank you.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 21, 2006)

In our first apartment in China, there were no traps in the bathroom piping. Hence, sewage "fragrances" remained within our home 24/7. To cover the odor a bit, we used to burn incense (there wasn't much else here at the time - it was 1997). This is the mark of a Buddhist in China and a couple of people told us as much (as in "the locals will think you're Buddhist, put it away.") We found it a source of conversation to tell our Ayi (house help) for one, that we weren't Buddhist, we were Christian and _why_ that was so different, so very different, from Buddhism. Though her mother was a steadfast Buddhist all her life, our Ayi is a believer today. I don't know that we helped that along, but I don't think we delayed that transformation with our burning of incense.

One question: Are the flowers in such a prominent position that they would lead people to believe that they are in some way the focal point of worship? It is a Christian church after all, and even the most iconoclastic among us would likely have a cross (or several) present in the sanctuary.

I think that when we look at what the pagans or even the world does and how that may lead others astray due to the examples we set (should they be too close to pagan/worldly practices), we have to look at what we are doing and its context. 

Saying that I listen to Black Sabbath to help lead into conversations with non-believers is absolute rubbish. But flowers are an unadulterated part of His creation, I don't know that I can find a fault there, save if they are too prominent or there are so many that they distract from the worship service (i.e. does the front of your church look like a TBN studio?). Then, yes, they should be removed. If that is not the case, it would be more important to me to make sure that they were donated and not purchased with church funds - there's a hair that I can see worth the splitting... (We all have our vices!)


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> How about thinking of it this way...at what point will we obey or not obey God?



At all points we obey God.

At what point do we stop letting Pagans determine what we can and can't do?

Perhaps people will come into my house, see cut flowers, and get the wrong idea?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

Really? You take that which is evil and call it good? I know Christians that use the Christmass Tree and say they use it to teach their children about Christ and salvation. I've seen the same done with easter egg and yule logs and jack o lanterns. Yet in scripture we have the Israelites that created an image with the INTENT of it representing the true God and they were punished for it. We have a man who tried to keep the ark from falling...his intent was good...but he did that which was reprehensible and was destroyed. And you know as well as I do that a pagan can enter your home and think nothing of cut flowers...but you also know as well as I do that pagans DO question why Christians have Christmass Trees. Why? Because they know what we should know and that is that we should not be taking part in what is obviously KNOWN to be a pagan practice. Regardless of it being pagan...what is the point of setting up a tree, decorating it, and offering gifts from under it? Does that not alone sound off? Hmmm, let me go stick a statue of buddah in my garden and lay flowers on him...you know, it's just garden art....


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> Really?



What is this in response to? I asked a question. 



LadyFlynt said:


> You take that which is evil and call it good? I know Christians that use the Christmass Tree and say they use it to teach their children about Christ and salvation. I've seen the same done with easter egg and yule logs and jack o lanterns. Yet in scripture we have the Israelites that created an image with the INTENT of it representing the true God and they were punished for it. We have a man who tried to keep the ark from falling...his intent was good...but he did that which was reprehensible and was destroyed.



Amen, no problem here. The tree in my house represents nothing but a decoration; same with the flowers. I never said it should represent anything. It is not used to aid in worship at my church or my house.




LadyFlynt said:


> And you know as well as I do that a pagan can enter your home and think nothing of cut flowers...but you also know as well as I do that pagans DO question why Christians have Christmass Trees. Why? Because they know what we should know and that is that we should not be taking part in what is obviously KNOWN to be a pagan practice.



I have never met a pagan yet who questioned why Christians have Chistmas trees. I myself formerly being a pagan, never questioned it. In fact the pagans I know think it strange for Christians to not have trees during the holidays. Have you ever met a pagan who questions having cut flowers in your home? I am sure no, but that does not negate the fact that they have used God’s creation in their ungodly worship.



LadyFlynt said:


> Regardless of it being pagan...what is the point of setting up a tree, decorating it, and offering gifts from under it? Does that not alone sound off? Hmmm, let me go stick a statue of buddah in my garden and lay flowers on him...you know, it's just garden art....



What is the point of decorating stair railing with evergreen and cards? Or even a wall with pictures? Does that sound off? To me it sounds like decoration. It looks nice.

Personally, sticking a lifeless statue of Buddha in my garden is certainly permissible and indeed garden art if so desired. Would it be wise? I think not. The world in general associates that statue with Buddhists. The flower issue is not so cut and dry (no pun intended). Most people are not aware of the pagan uses of cut flowers, so you never know who may enter your home and be ignorant or familiar. I know of no one who will associate cut flowers with those who believe in say, Sufism, but then again I know of none who associate indoor trees with Nimrodism (?) or solstice whatever-ism. That does not mean such people do not exist, but I suppose someone out there can pervert any part of God’s creation. Does such perversion mean we should abstain from everything – just in case?

I appreciate the interaction.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

You know as well as I do that you are just trying for a false set up. There is no truth in your story. Yes pagans use cut flowers...it's what they do with them and how they think of them that is different. A Christmass Tree has had and still has pagan and idolatrous attributes to it. You CHOOSE to ignore. I have known plenty of pagans and cultists that have discussed the Christmass Tree and put one up every year (solstice). I interact with these ppl on an almost daily basis. There are plenty of Christians that recognize it as such as well...including many of those in the Reformation era. Why did they kick out the "holy day", because it was of Rome...why was that considered "bad", because Rome had become pagan.

You made a statement before you made a question.

Oh, and I believe you are wrong about it being okay to set up a buddah in your garden...scripture speaks on that as well.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> You know as well as I do that you are just trying for a false set up. There is no truth in your story. Yes pagans use cut flowers...it's what they do with them and how they think of them that is different. A Christmass Tree has had and still has pagan and idolatrous attributes to it. You CHOOSE to ignore. I have known plenty of pagans and cultists that have discussed the Christmass Tree and put one up every year (solstice). I interact with these ppl on an almost daily basis. There are plenty of Christians that recognize it as such as well...including many of those in the Reformation era. Why did they kick out the "holy day", because it was of Rome...why was that considered "bad", because Rome had become pagan.
> 
> You made a statement before you made a question.
> 
> Oh, and I believe you are wrong about it being okay to set up a buddah in your garden...scripture speaks on that as well.



What is false exactly? My story? If Buddhism is so much associated with a statue of Buddah then it is wise to not have one in your house (although it is permissible being it is a lifeless hunk of metal).

But if Sufism is not so widely associated with cut flowers, then until flowers are clearly associated with some pagan ritual, then it is ok to display them in the home?

Trees are widely associated with pagan worship, therefore it is not wise to have them in our homes? That is the question I suppose. Are Christmas Trees widely associated with Pagan worship? Are cut flowers, hung pictures, or lighted candles widely associated with pagan worship? So is this the deciding factor to determining whether or not to decorate with God’s creation? Wide acceptance as to pagan meanings?

You are accusing me of choosing to ignore the cut trees pagan and idolatrous attributes. I don’t appreciate the false accusations. I am seeking answers to my question and not looking to start a fight, but looking for a clear defense to why we can indeed decorate with flowers even when Pagans misuse them for their worship.

I was never aware of these idolatrous attributes until I came across them at the Puritan board. Many of my friends (believers and non-believers) do not know of these “obvious” rituals you are talking about. That does not mean it is not true, but shows that the tree’s pagan ties are not as obvious as the Buddhist statue’s pagan ties.

If you know and interact with so many pagans and cultists who do revere the home decoration as an idol to some god, then it is probably not wise for you to set one up in your home. I suppose if I interacted with many druids and sufists who revere cut flowers, then I should refrain from them as well? Of all the lifeless idols that Paul walked by in Greece, suppose one of them was a carving of a person or child or animal. Would that prevent Paul or us from placing some form of nick-nack in our home as decoration?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

If you only knew how plain my house is...it's pretty dutchified...let's just say, I won't be offending any Amish anytime soon.


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## bowhunter1961 (Dec 21, 2006)

how far do we take this "do's and donts" list?
pagans use words, both writen and spoken in their woeship....does that mean we should note speak or write because they do?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

There is a difference between a do and don't list and living by certain principles.

I'm doing a poll right now in a diverse arena...the results should be enlightening...


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

So is the deciding factor to determining whether or not to decorate with God’s creation wide acceptance as to pagan meanings?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

No, you said that you never knew of any pagans and thought that most Christians automatically do not associate the tree being used in this manner as a pagan practice. Let's see if you are right.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> No, you said that you never knew of any pagans and thought that most Christians automatically do not associate the tree being used in this manner as a pagan practice. Let's see if you are right.



You insist on avoiding my questions. So what is the deciding factor to determining whether or not to decorate with God’s creation? Why can I place cut flowers in my house along with hung pictures, lighted candles, incense, etc. but not decorated greenery and trees?

Help me out here; you are on the defense when all I am doing is asking questions and search for answers.

You say wide acceptance to pagan meanings is not the deciding factor, so what is?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

Are you creating a shrine or high place by placing all of those things together in an obvious religious manner and central focus upon. Is there an entire season and Holy Day associated with those objects?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

So far, 3 Pagans, 5 Christians, and 2 Neither...all voting that it's pagan. Interesting.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 21, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> Are you creating a shrine or high place by placing all of those things together in an obvious religious manner and central focus upon. Is there an entire season and Holy Day associated with those objects?



Are you talking about my flowers or my tree?

Building a shrine to anything is forbidden. You inserted “obvious religious manner” and “central focus”. So is wide acceptance or obviousness the deciding factor? Why flowers, pictures, candles, incense, and nick-nacks but no tree? All these items are used in various pagan ceremonies and have been centrally focused upon.



LadyFlynt said:


> So far, 3 Pagans, 5 Christians, and 2 Neither...all voting that it's pagan. Interesting.



Tell me what is pagan? Is pulling flowers up out of the ground and placing them on display biblical? If it is not Christian, then it must be pagan, no? Are you trying to prove from your sample of ten that most people recognize that the Christmas tree is not found in the Holy Bible?


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 21, 2006)

Again, I don't have a problem with a tree in the corner of a living room. I have a problem with decorating it in a pagan manner and using it in the same practice and manner as the pagans. That is what you are doing with a Christmass Tree.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 23, 2006)

Any more thoughts on this? 

What makes a pagan practice sinful? Is it or is it not wide recognition by the general world? Why or why not?

I appreciate the insight.


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