# J. P. Moreland a Charismatic?



## bookslover (Oct 9, 2007)

According to a blog post at Reclaiming the Mind Ministries (the post title is "intellectual rise of the charismatics"), Moreland now considers himself a charismatic, identifying himself with the Vineyard movement. Now, that's something totally out of left field! I'll bet there's an interesting story there...

When you click on the site, click on the "pen and parchment" blog on the right=hand side, which will take you to the post.


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## sastark (Oct 10, 2007)

Who is the author of this blog?

Edited to add:
Never mind. C. Michael Patton wrote that article.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 10, 2007)

Fascinating. Moreland is a tough intellectual scholar. I have nothing but respect for his works.


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## bookslover (Oct 11, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> Fascinating. Moreland is a tough intellectual scholar. I have nothing but respect for his works.



The Vineyard is the group that goes in for "holy laughter" and laying on the floor barking like dogs, isn't it? Hard to figure Moreland going for wacky stuff like that.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 11, 2007)

I had not heard anything out here in CA about Moreland identifying with the charismatics. He did do his ThM at Dallas. Jack Deere left his gig as a prof at Dallas when he went for the Vineyard.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 14, 2007)

Regardless,
I am downloading his audio on Kingdom Triangle. I want to see where he goes with this. Normally, I would dismiss anyone else, but this is a top-rate, analytical philosophical theologian. I just don't see him getting "duped."

Downloadable Audio :: Kingdom Triangle :: J.P. Moreland


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## Pilgrim (Oct 14, 2007)

Here's a link to the post: The Intellectual Rise of the Charismatics


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## Pilgrim (Oct 14, 2007)

See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 14, 2007)

Pilgrim said:


> See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.



Thanks for the link.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 14, 2007)

This is too funny:



> Q2. Do you endorse a postmillennial reconstructionist viewpoint? Dominion theology or restorationism? One gets this impression by your call to "restore the Spirit's power?" If not, why not. Moreover, you act as though American evangelicals should run the world for God (The "we" in the book seems to mostly be Christians in America). Do you hope for an Americanized Christiandom where conservative family values run the world?
> 
> JP: I am not a reconstructionist in any sense of the term. The church and the state have different divinely appointed spheres of authority. My language in KT is about being the church as best we can, not directly about the state or political issues (though, of course, being a Kingdom-triangle Christian will impact the broader culture by out thought and lives). We have the resources in the Bible, the Kingdom, and the Spirit to become individuals and communities that lead the way as to how to live a life pleasing to God and conducive the ideal (divinely designed) human flourishing. In the book I indicate with considerable joy how the body of Christ outside North America is taking the lead worldwide. I speak to American Christians primarily because I understand our history and cannot write with authority about the history of Christianity in other countries, and because it is largely American Christians who purchase Zondervan books. Thus, I address those most likely to read my writings.



Never mind that no reconstructionist would disagree with his answer, note that the questioner gave him the same objection that questioners give theonomists--and Moreland gave the exact same answer as theonomists give! 

Excellent answer, btw.

Kingdom Triangle Discussion


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## RamistThomist (Oct 14, 2007)

this folliwng message didn't convince me of continuationism, but it was still fun and challenging to listen to.

Here is a powerful Piper message on Martin Lloyd-Jones. This is electric preaching at its best (I am not a Piperite but this is top-notch). The text is available, althuogh the true force is in listening to it (click on "listen" or "download").
A Passion for Christ-Exalting Power :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library


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## KMK (Oct 14, 2007)

Pilgrim said:


> See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.



I have to agree with him here:



> While I find many of the biblical and theological arguments of cessationism compelling, I would be the first to admit that the primary reason I remain a cessationist is because I have never experienced any miracles, signs, or wonders and I have never seen or heard of a legitimate prophet.



I have been reading through the statement of faith for the Sovereign Grace Ministries (Mark Dever). It is very interesting stuff.


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## KMK (Oct 14, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> > Fascinating. Moreland is a tough intellectual scholar. I have nothing but respect for his works.
> ...



It is my understanding that Wimber et al kicked the Toronto Airport Vineyard out in 1983. It has been my experience with Vineyards around here that they are more "Third Wavers".


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## RamistThomist (Oct 14, 2007)

KMK said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.
> ...



is this it?
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/holy_spirit.pdf


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## KMK (Oct 15, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Pilgrim said:
> ...



That's the one.


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## bookslover (Oct 15, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> I had not heard anything out here in CA about Moreland identifying with the charismatics. He did do his ThM at Dallas. Jack Deere left his gig as a prof at Dallas when he went for the Vineyard.



Actually, Deere was fired.


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## bookslover (Oct 15, 2007)

Pilgrim said:


> See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.



Zounds! Sounds like it's time for another reprinting of Warfield's _Counterfeit Miracles_. I'm a "hard cessationist" and plan to remain so.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 15, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.
> ...



I might reread it as well. But I am a soft cessationist, if that now.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 15, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.
> ...



Trinity Foundation sent out a flier that it is reprinting this. Supposed to be out around November.


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## bookslover (Oct 15, 2007)

I just read Biola's doctrinal statement (at Biola University - A Private Christian University in Southern California) and was surprised to see that it's not as "hard cessationist" as it used to be.

After the usual language about the extraordinary gifts being used by God to authenticate the biblical writers and their message, there's this: _Beyond the foundation era, God, in His sovereignty, may grant any spiritual gift and work miraculously for the benefit of His Church at any time._ To me, in this context, this seems to be a significant softening of Biola's historic "hard line" position against the charismatic gifts.

Too bad.

I guess that statement also means that one can't use Biola's doctrinal statement to have Moreland, shall we say, move on, employment-wise...


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## Pilgrim (Oct 16, 2007)

KMK said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > See comment here from Moreland himself, where he describes himself as a Third Waver.
> ...



Dever is a Southern Baptist and most likely a cessationist. C.J. Mahaney is the leader of Sovereign Grace Ministries.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 16, 2007)

bookslover said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > I had not heard anything out here in CA about Moreland identifying with the charismatics. He did do his ThM at Dallas. Jack Deere left his gig as a prof at Dallas when he went for the Vineyard.
> ...



Sorry. I didn't intend to get into the details of his departure, merely the fact of it. Describing it indefinitely was an attempt to avoid the harsher facts. You are, of course, correct that his employers were most unhappy with his "conversion" to the Vineyard philosophy and he was quickly gone. My point was that both Deere and Moreland have a Dallas connection. Yineyard devotees can come with interesting pedigrees, don't you think?


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## KMK (Oct 16, 2007)

Pilgrim said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Pilgrim said:
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Sorry, Dever is part of "Together For the Gospel" along with Mahaney. Sovereign Grace Ministries also promotes Dever's new book, "The Gospel and Personal Evangelism"


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## Robin (Oct 17, 2007)

Having studied under Moreland, he's a self-avowed "mystic" too. Though I've always known him to be an admirable gentleman, scholar and fervent defender of Christ, he has some troubling ideas (as does Dallas Willard.) I recall a class where he promoted "prayer vigils" - one could feel closer to God by praying all night, standing up (12 hours) a la the tradition of ancient knights/crusades. Lots of pietistic ritual stuff.

If anyone imagines intellectual vigor is protection against false beliefs or misreads of Holy Scripture - think again.

Meanwhile, Dr. Moreland is still a wonderful gentleman, admirable teacher and leads an exemplary life style.

Reactions: Like 1


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