# Leave and Cleave and Visiting Parents/Inlaws



## Bristol-H (Jan 21, 2022)

Looking for a little bit of biblically-based input.
My wife and I have been married for under a year and she agreed to move to where I could financially support a household. Her family is about five hours away and she gets pretty homesick. We have been working on being together as much as we can when we do go for weekend visits there and agree to be together for church, but occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.
Our pastor informs us that this does not meet God's design for both parties to leave and cleave as in Gen 2:24 and she should not be going over to visit without me.

Is there room for a wife to visit family in the absence of her husband and yet remain obedient to God's principles for marriage?

Thoughts, comments, scriptural references, or resources would be appreciated.

For clarity sake:
-We are attending the same church I had been before getting married
-We attend a reformed, 1689 LBC confessing church that holds to the Five Solas
-This same pastor and his wife had provided in-depth pre-marriage counseling during our courtship and engagement period.
-My wife and I are spending on average six to eight weeks together then we agree that she may go and visit for about five days
-Her parents support me as head of my home and do not try to usurp leadership from me
-It is not a situation of her trying to get away from me and we both love being together and she feels cared for provided for by me when she leaves to visit because I don't guilt her for leaving for a while.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 21, 2022)

Hi Bristol-H, please fix yourself a signature so folks can properly address you and per the board rules. See the link how at the bottom of the page. 


Bristol-H said:


> Looking for a little bit of biblically-based input.
> My wife and I have been married for under a year and she agreed to move to where I could financially support a household. Her family is about five hours away and she gets pretty homesick. We have been working on being together as much as we can for weekend visits there and agree to be together for church, but occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.
> Our Church Sheppard informs us that this does not meet the leave and cleave mandate and she should not be going over to visit without me.
> 
> ...


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## Anti-Babylon (Jan 21, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> Our Church Sheppard informs us that this does not meet the leave and cleave mandate



What is this? What is a "leave and cleave mandate"?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 21, 2022)

What kind of church do you go to? 

I don't see a problem with the occasional week visit. I wouldn't get carried away but it seems innocent. As long as her absence isn't causing you to sin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## D.L. Arter (Jan 21, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> Looking for a little bit of biblically-based input.
> My wife and I have been married for under a year and she agreed to move to where I could financially support a household. Her family is about five hours away and she gets pretty homesick. We have been working on being together as much as we can for weekend visits there and agree to be together for church, but occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.
> Our Church Sheppard informs us that this does not meet the leave and cleave mandate and she should not be going over to visit without me.
> 
> ...


I'm not really certain that this has anything to do with Genesis 2:24 (and honestly, I wouldn't necessarily consider Genesis 2:24 a mandate). I would argue that Genesis 2:24 (and several other passages) does make it clear that when a woman marries a man her primary responsibility is to that man and no longer to her own parental units (just like the husband's primary responsibility would be to his wife and not his parental units). As long as your in-laws aren't trying to dictate how you and your wife ought to live your life, then I don't really see her visiting them as an issue. When my wife and I lived 10 hours from my in-laws, she occasionally visited without me (particularly when there was a major surgical operation or for the graduations of her siblings), but her parents never attempted to disrupt our marriage in any way.

Now if her parents are trying to control your marriage, then that is a problem and you should be clear with your in-laws about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andres (Jan 21, 2022)

There is nothing inherently sinful for a wife to visit her family without her husband. If she is wanting to "get away" from her husband for periods then that would be concerning but it doesn't read that way in your post. Wisdom would dictate how often a wife should be apart from her husband apart from providences requiring such. You mention "occasionally" - how often does she stay the week with her parents?


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 21, 2022)

My wife is from Maine and we live now in Arizona. Typically when we go back east to visit her family, she'll go a week before me and I will join her there and then we'll come home together, or else we will both go at the same time and she'll come back a week later than I do. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 21, 2022)

All these previous answers say it’s ok. But I say unto you that there IS a problem if your wife longs for her family of origin more than she longs for you. In these early years of marriage it is absolutely vital to establish strong bonds - those bonds end up being tested over time. So occasionally visiting family - a few times a year - is fine, but if she’s abandoning you multiple times per month to go see mommy and daddy then there is a huge problem. Fix it!

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 1 | Amen 2


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## ArminianOnceWas (Jan 21, 2022)

It seems like insufficient information. This is a young marriage going through the trials of relocation. It seems pastoral counseling is more necessary *if* there is a problem. Otherwise, the unspecific comments of this "Sheppard" could make matters that are *relatively* insignificant and manageable much worse. 

I wonder what this "Sheppard" proposes you do? Remember, this is YOUR marriage and ultimately YOUR responsibility. Outside perspectives CAN be helpful, but not necessarily accurate.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ArminianOnceWas (Jan 21, 2022)

Furthermore, I can't help but wonder how active your church family was before you were married in counseling you and your wife through the process? I assume you must be in a different church now. How do you assess the levels of support compared to the former church and the current one?


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## Caroline (Jan 21, 2022)

I'm honestly a little disturbed that someone is inserting themselves into your marriage enough to suggest that this is a problem. A husband is called to love his wife, and if your wife is emotionally helped by having time occasionally with her family, then that is a loving thing to do. We are also called to honor our parents. In some cultures, it is common for parents to live with their adult children. Certainly, it is not unusual for children to frequently visit their parents.

If a husband moved his wife very far from her family and refused to permit her visits home and demanded she stay always with him and never be anywhere without him, I'd be very concerned about her well-being. Isolation from friends and family is the first warning sign of abuse. So I'd say that not only is it acceptable for her to return home to visit her friends and family, but it is a sign of a healthy marriage.

Reactions: Like 7


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 21, 2022)

After reading scores of books and articles and receiving formal training and counseling thousands of people and hundreds of couples and myself being married 25+ years… More than most people: I know a thing or two because I’ve seen a thing or two.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 21, 2022)

By the way there is no such thing as a leave and cleave "mandate". It's _descriptive _of that which is _normative_, not _imperative_.

Reactions: Like 3 | Love 1


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## Pergamum (Jan 21, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> Looking for a little bit of biblically-based input.
> My wife and I have been married for under a year and she agreed to move to where I could financially support a household. Her family is about five hours away and she gets pretty homesick. We have been working on being together as much as we can for weekend visits there and agree to be together for church, but occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.
> Our Church Sheppard informs us that this does not meet the leave and cleave mandate and she should not be going over to visit without me.
> 
> ...


Your pastor sounds like a meddler. This is your own family's decision, not his. Who is head of your house? You, or some other guy butting his nose where it doesn't belong?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jan 21, 2022)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> By the way there is no such thing as a leave and cleave "mandate". It's _descriptive _of that which is _normative_, not _imperative_.


Naw.... I think you are wrong here. It is prescriptive. But it does look different culturally.

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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 21, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Naw.... I think you are wrong here. It is prescriptive. But it does look different culturally.



Regardless, even if it is prescriptive, it doesn't mean "wife can't visit her parents without her husband's presence".


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## Pergamum (Jan 21, 2022)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Regardless, even if it is prescriptive, it doesn't mean "wife can't visit her parents without her husband's presence".


If he permits it, sure. Not whether the pastor permits it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 21, 2022)

Maybe I’m misreading it, but the OP seems to me like they’re traveling to be with her parents nearly every weekend, and on top of that she’s sometimes staying with her parents while he returns home alone to face the week without his supposed helpmeet. If I’m reading that correctly, then that’s ridiculous. Y’all desperately need to establish your own identity as a family unit and a big part of that is learning to have fun together and create your own “traditions” and activities in your weekend down time. If your weekend downtime is primarily spent with her mommy and daddy then that means the only time you two are really having together is the midweek time during which the preoccupations of work affect your ability to do stuff together.

Reactions: Like 6


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 21, 2022)

Your “Church Sheppard” (whatever that is) may be doing it clumsily, but this person at least intuitively understands that something is amiss.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Edward (Jan 21, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> and she should not be going over to visit without me.





Bristol-H said:


> occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.


Two separate issues. On the second, I'll join the "not enough info" camp. On one hand, if you are happy and she is happy, why is anyone else even involved? On the other hand, too many visits / too much time might become an issue.

On the first - most folks I'd suggest that they start looking for a decent church and flee that one, but I realize good churches are scarce in your part of the world, and you may be stuck with the best of a bad lot. In any event, the absolute rule given is absolutely wrong. Sounds like a person that may be controlling to the point of abuse of their spouse.


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## Nick H (Jan 21, 2022)

How long have you lived 5 hours away from your in-laws? 
Of the time you have lived 5 hours away how many weekends have you spent at your in-laws? 
Of the weekends spent at your in-laws, how many has your wife stayed the week and you returned home?


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## David Taylor (Jan 21, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> Looking for a little bit of biblically-based input.
> My wife and I have been married for under a year and she agreed to move to where I could financially support a household. Her family is about five hours away and she gets pretty homesick. We have been working on being together as much as we can for weekend visits there and agree to be together for church, but occasionally we agree that she can spend a week with them as I return home to work.
> Our Church Sheppard informs us that this does not meet the leave and cleave mandate and she should not be going over to visit without me.
> 
> ...


I do not see any reason a woman, or a man, cannot visit their family without the other.


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## retroGRAD3 (Jan 21, 2022)

David Taylor said:


> I do not see any reason a woman, or a man, cannot visit their family without the other.


The issue is if it's happening all the time and if the husband and wife are apart more than they are together

Reactions: Like 1


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 21, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The issue is if it's happening all the time and if the husband and wife are apart more than they are together



But even then, _that_ it is happening is less important than _why_ it is happening.

Reactions: Like 1


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## reformed grit (Jan 21, 2022)

I'm not one with personal experience - I've never been married. I know in general that marriage norms today fluctuate greatly from Biblical norms. However. I know my brother's marriage fell apart over something like this. Her parents moved into their house and refused to leave. They interpreted the "mandate" as only the husband leaving his father and mother, not the wife. The wife's father took control of their relationship, and the 'wife' wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Ben Zartman (Jan 21, 2022)

It's very possible that the pastor here sees the OP as a not very strong head, and the young wife as not able to detach emotionally enough from her family to submit to him as her head. Perhaps he's trying to head off a bad situation at the pass. Every situation is different, and every pastor deals differently, but most pastors have seen enough marriages wind up among shoals to detect warning signs. I don't see that he can _forbid, _but he can advise, and pastoral advice should not be lightly rejected.
We lived for a time with my wife's father, as a matter of economic expediency, and I'm thankful that he did not attempt to usurp my place as head of my wife, even though he was an unbeliever. It was his house, but we were our own family, and we got along famously. So to leave and cleave plays out differently in different contexts.

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## Bristol-H (Jan 21, 2022)

I have edited this post and apologize for the initial lack of information.


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## ZackF (Jan 21, 2022)

Well, I liked Ben Zartman's answer.

From what you are describing I think your pastor is overstating but not necessarily overstepping in giving the advice if he is concerned. Not God's design? If your wife was taking turns with other family members in taking care of a sick parent or grandparent would he think the same? What if you were deployed in the military?

The post war nuclear family proliferated due to increased societal wealth. It is not an iron clad biblical promise. The leaving and cleaving are spiritual and authoritative transfers. It was not unusual for there to be multiple generations under one roof in prior generations. This may be the best for some today. For others it would be totally inappropriate and dangerous.

I wish my wife could see her family more. If I could afford fly to her and the kids out there a few times a year while renting them a car for a week, I'd gladly do so. Nothing gives me the concern of violating God's design.

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## Edward (Jan 21, 2022)

After reading the update, I certainly have more concerns about your pastor than I do about your marriage. If you in-laws haven't given you cause for concern, and you are happy and your wife is happy, then enjoy your happy marriage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ArminianOnceWas (Jan 21, 2022)

In our tradition (Reformed), men often feel very threatened and insecure by women. I consider you blessed that you don't feel threatened by your wife's affection for home.

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## retroGRAD3 (Jan 21, 2022)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> But even then, _that_ it is happening is less important than _why_ it is happening.


Agreed


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## LilyG (Jan 22, 2022)

I think it really does depend. I have wonderful, God fearing parents, and was very close to them. I lived at home until I got married. When I married a man 2 states away, and we visited them once a year as we could afford, it was hard. Looking back, as much as I missed them, it was the best thing for me. I needed it. I feel like it would've hindered my growth in learning to be a wife to my new husband. It is a big, sometimes difficult transition to make for the girl, changing authorities and care. 

That said, visiting often could be helpful. And I know plenty of women who live near their parents early in marriage and do just fine!


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## Bristol-H (Jan 22, 2022)

LilyG said:


> I think it really does depend. I have wonderful, God fearing parents, and was very close to them. I lived at home until I got married. When I married a man 2 states away, and we visited them once a year as we could afford, it was hard. Looking back, as much as I missed them, it was the best thing for me. I needed it. I feel like it would've hindered my growth in learning to be a wife to my new husband. It is a big, sometimes difficult transition to make for the girl, changing authorities and care.
> 
> That said, visiting often could be helpful. And I know plenty of women who live near their parents early in marriage and do just fine!


Your perspective on what was best for you, in the long run, is similar to what our pastor and his wife had said "Failure for the wife to detach from her family may likely stunt the growth of the marriage" 

We as a couple are working out solutions to continue her detachment, but for the time being my mind keeps going back to:

1st Peter 3:7 "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." and Ephesians 5:28-29, Colossians 3:19.

I can't see a scenario where I tell my wife "No more seeing your family unless I go with you" and not be treating her harshly.

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## Jeri Tanner (Jan 22, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> Your perspective on what was best for you, in the long run, is similar to what our pastor and his wife had said "Failure for the wife to detach from her family may likely stunt the growth of the marriage"
> 
> We as a couple are working out solutions to continue her detachment, but for the time being my mind keeps going back to:
> 
> ...


Does your wife agree that she is too attached to her parents? (And willing and eager to overcome it?)


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## Bristol-H (Jan 22, 2022)

I have seen some good advice on here in both directions and I am very slow to reject the advice of my pastor who has poured so much love and care into helping us already. 

I have been reading a bit from Voddie Baucham, John Gill, and John MacArthur on this matter.
Can anyone recommend some good resources, commentaries, or sermons surrounding Genesis 2:24, Ephesians 5:22-33, and Colossians 3:19?


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## Bristol-H (Jan 22, 2022)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Does your wife agree that she is too attached to her parents? (And willing and eager to overcome it?)


Willing to overcome her attachment, yes, and willing to reduce visits to the inlaws gradually yes, but she would not concede to being "too attached"
we both saw this being a potential issue during the courtship but one of the reasons I was so excited to have her as my wife and the mother of my children is the way she is so loyal, dedicated, and committed to her family. I would have been more concerned if she was excited to get away from them.

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## ZackF (Jan 22, 2022)

Bristol-H said:


> and I am very slow to reject the advice of my pastor who has poured so much love and care into helping us already.


You surely can see how utterly disingenuous your request for advice is then. You should have stated that up front. Bad form man!

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 22, 2022)

@Bristol-H

Brother, I think that the important thing here, and it may well be the case, is that you remain as open and fully disclosive with your pastor as you are with this board.

Has the pastor talked at length with you _and_ your wife and laid all his concerns out, and have you both laid out all your concerns to him in return? It may be that he's overreaching, as some have suggested; on the other hand, he may see some real concerns here that you don't see.

Are there other reliable and trustworthy parties there that can be brought into the discussion? Perhaps local elders? You need people that know both of you well, to whom you have accountability, and who can speak honestly and lovingly about the issues in each of your lives. This board can only give a certain sort of input, especially given that you didn't set all the facts before us initially and still may only partially have done so now, even if unwittingly. 

Bottom line: you need good, caring, pastoral counsel here. We can only make some perhaps helpful reflections and point you in some fruitful directions. 

Peace,
Alan

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## Bristol-H (Jan 22, 2022)

ZackF said:


> You surely can see how utterly disingenuous your request for advice is then. You should have stated that up front. Bad form man!


Well then, in light of receiving some rebukes towards my apparent ignorance I shall rephrase again.
If anyone knows of any sound exegetical resources based on Gen 2:24 and Ephesians 5:22-23 and cares to share I would appreciate it. 

It was not my intention to either aggravate or disclose the entirety of my personal conversations. Thank you for the input and I extend my apologies, I am still fairly new to the puritan board and it seemed a good place to get some advice.
Sincerely, Bristol H.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 22, 2022)

Caroline said:


> I'm honestly a little disturbed that someone is inserting themselves into your marriage enough to suggest that this is a problem. A husband is called to love his wife, and if your wife is emotionally helped by having time occasionally with her family, then that is a loving thing to do. We are also called to honor our parents. In some cultures, it is common for parents to live with their adult children. Certainly, it is not unusual for children to frequently visit their parents.
> 
> If a husband moved his wife very far from her family and refused to permit her visits home and demanded she stay always with him and never be anywhere without him, I'd be very concerned about her well-being. Isolation from friends and family is the first warning sign of abuse. So I'd say that not only is it acceptable for her to return home to visit her friends and family, but it is a sign of a healthy





Bristol-H said:


> Well then, in light of receiving some rebukes towards my apparent ignorance I shall rephrase again.
> If anyone knows of any sound exegetical resources based on Gen 2:24 and Ephesians 5:22-23 and cares to share I would appreciate it.
> 
> It was not my intention to either aggravate or disclose the entirety of my personal conversations. Thank you for the input and I extend my apologies, I am still fairly new to the puritan board and it seemed a good place to get some advice.
> Sincerely, Bristol H.


What I believe you should also be doing is coming to grips with the fact that the spirit of the age has ensured that “loving your wife” a la the passages commonly cited functionally have become the pious sounding cop out of negligent or weak men to have their wives be the de facto leader in the home.

Reactions: Like 4


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## David Taylor (Jan 22, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The issue is if it's happening all the time and if the husband and wife are apart more than they are together


Agreed, but I don't think that is the situation being described here unless I am missing something?


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## Tom Hart (Jan 22, 2022)

ZackF said:


> You surely can see how utterly disingenuous your request for advice is then. You should have stated that up front. Bad form man!


How is it bad form to look for input on a difficult real-life issue?


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## ZackF (Jan 22, 2022)

Tom Hart said:


> How is it bad form to look for input on a difficult real-life issue?


Not when the input request is framed as check on his pastor’s advice but then later speaks of his pastor “pouring love”.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 22, 2022)

ZackF said:


> Not when the input request is framed as check on his pastor’s advice but then later speaks of his pastor “pouring love”.


I do not see the OP “framed as [a] check on his pastor’s advice.”


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