# Carl Trueman: "99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should..."



## ReadBavinck (Jan 27, 2006)

Derek Thomas at reformation21.org asked ref21 bloggers if they agreed with this:



> "Truth to tell, exposing sin is easier than applying grace; for, alas, we are more intimate with the former than we sometimes are with the latter. Therein lies our weakness." (from Sinclair Ferguson's leading article this month).



Carl Trueman responded with this today. A friend of mine recently said the same thing. What do you think?



> *For what it's worth*
> 
> 1/27/2006
> 
> ...


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## crhoades (Jan 27, 2006)

> My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.



Perhaps they should go into the workforce when they graduate college and spend 10 years working, all the while studying their Bible, reading tons, listening to seminary courses on tape/mp3/cd while being mentored by men in the presbytery and session and _then_ go to seminary.


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> > My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.
> ...



 I want to be careful here because this could sound bad, BUT frankly I think seminaries should require men to be a certain age before the come to seminary. Many of my classmates have never been anything in their lives except students. Yet when they graduate they are supposed to be properly to minister. I disagree. I think there is certain wisdom that comes from experience and age. I look back on myself at 23 and now at 38 and see an ENORMOUS difference that has pastoral implications.


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## R. Scott Clark (Jan 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> > My solution: 99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should go back into the workplace, spend time as members of churches, learn to deal with real people, Christian and non-Christian, in real situations, and wait for their inner call to be confirmed by recognition of their actual gifts by the congregation in which they are placed.
> ...



Carl is a dear friend (we did a book together!) and I understand his point. Having taught a fair number of second career students, I enjoy teaching younger seminary students. 

The younger students and graduates do lack experience, but they do have energy and a willingness to serve and suffer. 

My experience with second career students might be a little different from Carl's. I've enjoyed their maturity, but it is much more difficult for them to learn than it is for the younger students to learn. Some of them have been impatient about learning "minutia" such as Greek and Hebrew. 

Sem students and graduates do need maturity. That's why we send our students into internships for 700 hours (and more). Our churches would do well (as the OPC and RCUS) to require internships/apprenticeships of their graduates. I spent two years with a minister close to retirement and I thank God for that invaluable opportunity.

We also need our churches to select and catechize prospective sem students carefully. There is no reason why pastor's cannot invest themselves in a young man before seminary. Most of the time, however, sem students come to us without having such preparation. Sometimes local churches don't care what happens outside their congregation. Others refuse to "turn loose" (as Grandma said) of young men so they can be properly trained. Most of the time, local churches haven't taken the time to encourage and prepare young men for ministry. 

The church has a long history of sending young men to college and then on to theological education. One difference between the 17th century and now is the culture within which those young men have been raised. In certain aspects, emotional and psychological maturity is delayed in our culture and that hinders preparation. In other aspects (e.g., sexual development) it arrives too early.

Carl is ALWAYS interesting and stimulating.

rsc


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## crhoades (Jan 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by crhoades_
> ...



For whatever a personal testimony is worth from me, I echo your experience. when I graduated college I immediately visited a couple of seminaries. Providentially I joined the work force and have been at it for 6+ years in a corporate environment. The pressures and politics that I've faced and sometimes overcome in a large World 100 company (Bridgestone) has no doubt matured me and will help me when/if I go into the ministry. I have used my time since college (I'm 30) with reading and listening to lectures with all available opportunities. I'm also trying to redeem the time by learning Hebrew so that I'll be able to test out. I'm also involved in a pastoral internship/mentored for ministry program under my pastor that is invaluable. All of this to say, everyday that I have not went to seminary I am thankful. Now granted, I'm eager to go but I will be better suited to be there when I get the opportunity.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 27, 2006)

Chris,
How old were you when you graduated college?24, 25?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 27, 2006)

I agree with some of his concerns, but also with some things Dr. Clark noted as well. For me, I know that if I do end up obtaining the confirmed inner and outer call to pastoral ministry, I would not (during or right after seminary) seek out a position of senior pastor to start off with, but would seek and internship and even then likely an Assistant or Associate Pastor position, as I believe that would be the best way to refine my experience with serving and with receiving counsel before putting a congregation under my primary care for teaching.


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## crhoades (Jan 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Chris,
> How old were you when you graduated college?24, 25?


23

I was on the 6+ year plan due to switching from pre-pharmacy to Chemistry/Biology and then adding secondary education as well as experimenting too much extracurricuarly...I didn't become a Christian until halfway through college...

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...


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## cupotea (Jan 27, 2006)

> The younger students and graduates do lack experience, but they do have energy and a willingness to serve and suffer.
> 
> My experience with second career students might be a little different from Carl's. I've enjoyed their maturity, but it is much more difficult for them to learn than it is for the younger students to learn. Some of them have been impatient about learning "minutia" such as Greek and Hebrew.



As a second-career pastor I find myself in agreement with you on both counts. The younger seminarians I encountered were - universally - immature emotionally, relationally, and spiritually. 

But as an older student and pastor I was TOTALLY unprepared to be a pastor. I feel sorry for those "first call" congregations that are inevitably saddled with the likes of us. It was only through many years of hard knocks (due to my own ignorance) that I first began to understand what it means to be a pastor. And this was *after* a full year of internship.

Furthermore, I didn't even begin to develop theologically until well after I was out of the seminary and into the pastorate. Maybe this was due to the fact that I'd spent 8 years in two liberal, historical-critical dominated seminaries who gave me a political indoctrination instead of a theological education. 

I'm not sure what the solution is. But I know that seminaries need our prayers.


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## Romans922 (Jan 27, 2006)

I understand all that is being said, and I don't necessarily disagree. But for a second let me be the immature 23 yr old that I am and put forth something from the otherside of the fence.

Kevin said that he has matured a great deal from 23 to his current age 38. But I ask, won't you look back when you are 55 and think, "Man I really matured since I graduated from seminary."

Or might I ask, when is someone 'mature' enough to ever be qualified to be a leader over a congregation/flock? I don't think any of us would be qualified for such a task. But it is all upon Christ where we have our wisdom, strength, power. 

However, I can say...if I were to begin shepherding a flock as a pastor right now, I would be absolutely stupid to do it on my own, and I think for even older ministers it is foolish. But especially if I was the age I am now, I would most certainly seek the wisdom of my fellow elders. I would not be so stupid as to not seek them and their wisdom. Even if I was in my 40's I would be seeking men who are older and far wiser than me for guidance. But let us also again not forget that we must always seek the counsel of Christ, who gives us the grace to do anything. 

I don't know what to think of what has been said. I understand it, but I don't know what I am to do about it. 



Well, despite this, I am off to go to First Pres for the Men's rally, that Al Mohler was supposed to speak at. However, his father in law is sick/dying maybe and isnt going to be there. Keep him in your prayers.


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## crhoades (Jan 27, 2006)

This is not directed to anyone in particular more of a self-reflection again...

The above started out with a person being elected a ruling elder when 33...

I'm 30 (and I understand that age is relative to maturity) and I would not qualify as an elder right now. In the sense that I need maturation and a better hold on my household financially and I'm sure my wife would say that I need to be a better spiritaul head (I'd agree!). So would it not be logical that if I would count myself out of a ruling elder position that I shouldn't hop into becoming a TE yet? Should I not wait until my session deems me ready to send me? It's been idententified that I have a desire to go to seminary and I'm currently under evaluation as to giftedness etc. and a part of that is me being shepherded in more than the confession.

I guess what I'm stumbling around is should men go to seminary for training to become TE's when they wouldn't be considered to be RE's in their home church? 

Please take my inquries as what they are, probing questions that I'm wrestling through existentially. Please don't think that I'm projecting out to anyone on this board - I have friends on this board and also outside of the board who are younger than I and are in seminary. And again, I know it is hard to make a hard and fast rule because age itself is arbitrary - I'm not looking for a "you can't go to seminary until your 28" type reply but more of a theoretical one.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Jan 27, 2006)

Turn the question around a little bit.
How do we mature? by going through trials and experiences and learning from them.

How do you learn to be a Pastor?
by experiencing the different pieces that make up a Pastor's job description. It appears to me that lots of those pieces can be learned in part in seminary, but the depth of knowledge and experience is only going to be learned OJT.

hence the postings pointing out the essentialness of working with an experienced Pastor.

Now i sacrificed a lot to go to seminary at 28, only to find after 2 years of pain that the church did not see an outer call. I really appreciate what i learned there but i regret the pain i put my wife and family through. There really ought to be a better way.
(i'm 52 now, kids are all gone and i'm back to reading theology, but i'll never go back to seminary. however i deeply enjoy and profit from teaching Sunday School [and appreciate the opportunity])


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## R. Scott Clark (Jan 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr_
> Turn the question around a little bit.
> How do we mature? by going through trials and experiences and learning from them.
> 
> ...



I agree, much of what I've learned could only be learned by sitting in consistory/session and presbytery/classis meetings, making house visits, and standing in the pulpit. There's nothing like grey/gray hair.

I have noticed, however, that men who have served on a session/consistory before going to sem seem to be a little better grounded. That helps a lot. It lets them know the realities of church life before they come. They realize how important this stuff is, that it isn't purely theoretical, that it's life and death in some cases.

Maybe I miss out on the conversations in the student lounge -- I'm sure I do; but I hear about some of them and there is immaturity -- but I am impressed with the maturity of even our younger students. These are fellows who could be doing something else, men of ability and energy who have given up lucrative careers (in some cases at least) for Christ and his church. I'm impressed with their devotion and passion (in the colloquial sense) and with their self-control, most of the time. I always tell new students, when I get the chance, to listen to other students and determine who is worth listening to and who isn't. It doesn't take too long to figure out. It's usually the one's who talk all the time who aren't so worthy of rapt attention.

I see these fellows mature over three or four (or even 5) years. We put them through the fire as best we can. They serve in congregations in various ways. Some even serve on sessions/consistories.

It is interesting and instructive to compare their pictures from when they entered to when the graduate. The lines on their faces mean something and their bearing and demeanor changes. 

For what it's worth, we don't get a lot of reports back saying, "Hey, this fellow isn't ready...." 

I do wish that sessions/consistories would call us before they call a man (if he's an alum). They rarely do, however. 

rsc

[Edited on 1-28-2006 by R. Scott Clark]


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## Puritanhead (Jan 27, 2006)

"99 out of a 100 seminary graduates should..."

...marry a female law school graduate so they won't be so poor the rest of their life...


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## fredtgreco (Jan 27, 2006)

Two comments:

1. I think the level of "readiness" is seen in the length of pastorates. The average in Reformed circles is (I believe) 3 or 4 years. It is relatively the same across the board. This is how the Church "deals" with the problem - it doesn't say anything to the seminaries, Presbyteries avoid it (citing "different philosophies of ministry" or the magical "I believe God is calling me to a nearly identical church one state over"), and pastors only whisper it to friends. That is reality.

2. I think this also reflects the level of commitment and maturity of ruling elders. If we truly believe in a plurality of elders, a (relatively) young pastor should not be a major problem. The REs should support and help train him, even as the young TE can help train them. Example: the young TE brings seminary experience, language experience, a wealth (usually) of reading. The REs bring age, world experience, relationship experience, etc.

The problem is that too often REs view the TE as the "expert" because "he went to seminary." Yeah....ok... and that means? Young TEs can come out and think that because they can parse verbs and recite the latest in redemptive historical theory, that REs need to be put in their place.

Personally, the most important preparation for my ministry is my service as an RE. Second most is my experience as basically Interim Pastor of a church.


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## ReadBavinck (Jan 27, 2006)

What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?


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## satz (Jan 28, 2006)

I don't think the issue is so much that secular work prepares men for the ministry. Rather, men should be given the chance to mature spiritually and emotionally before setting out on a path or enter the ministry. While not impossible, i think it is very rare that a young man below 25 just out of university or something similar can know for certain he is called. As someone else mentioned, it is simply a fact that in our society today, men ( and women) mature slower than they did in previous generations.

Would it not be wiser for young men with a desire for the ministry to (generally) enter the workforce and start earning a living like everyone else? At the same time, their pastor should be monitoring their service in church and maybe assigning them special duties and tasks that will allow him to test their qualification to the ministry.

Now there may be special exceptions and the like, but i feel this is a good general rule? Wasn't Jesus around 30 when he began his own ministry?


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## R. Scott Clark (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka_
> What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?



That's where consistories/sessions and presbyteries/classes come into play. They need to help the candidate make an honest self-assessment. They need to evaluate him honestly. They need to season him. 

It's not a purely subjective judgment made by the candidate himself. It's a judgment made with others in the church.

In some respects, one is never old enough, never experienced enough. I've seen very senior men do and say very immature and destructive things.

This life is a constant dying to self and living to Christ. 

rsc


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka_
> What does this maturity look like, sound like? How would a seminary grad, young or old, know that he is mature enough?



Read the requirements of the pastoral epistles to see what maturity is required. Then read the book of Numbers and the epistle to Corinthians to see why that maturity is required and what kind of people we are called to minister to.


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## Romans922 (Jan 28, 2006)

If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.



I agree. I'd love to have a mentor. There are so few these days. Even the professors of seminaries usually don't have time to mentor students.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



Agreed. My senior year of college my pastor, in an informal way, took me under his wing and showed me, granted in very small measures, how to use the Confession and the Reformed faith pastorally. I learned SO much.


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## wsw201 (Jan 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Two comments:
> 
> 1. I think the level of "readiness" is seen in the length of pastorates. The average in Reformed circles is (I believe) 3 or 4 years. It is relatively the same across the board. This is how the Church "deals" with the problem - it doesn't say anything to the seminaries, Presbyteries avoid it (citing "different philosophies of ministry" or the magical "I believe God is calling me to a nearly identical church one state over"), and pastors only whisper it to friends. That is reality.
> ...



Very, very true. I really feel for some young men who get into a church plant and are usually left to their own devices. On the whole they don't have any experienced RE's and they are sitting out there on an island.

To me the key for first time pastors, regardless of age, is that they need a big dose of humility. 

Pastors are called primarily by a church to preach the Gospel. That is their primary gift. No one really considers that they may have no organizational/administrative or financial skills. This is where humility comes in. In a small church, the pastor will be expected to do a lot, because he is the guy who is always there. I have seen pastors who actually believe that a line item in a budget thinks that "hey we have the money because its in the budget!" and start spending money the church doesn't have. Or have no idea how to organize themselves much less anything in the church. They need help, but won't admit it.

Also, the pastor has to realize that he is not the "leader" of the church. The leadership belongs to all the officers of the church, including Deacons. This is how Christ has set things up. If you go against it, the church will fail sooner or later. I have been around some very arrogant TE's who think they can do it all, and with that type of attitude, they end up doing it all and fall flat on their faces because the Session let them do it (it goes like this, "If he wants to make all the decisions, he can do all the work!"). 

This is why humility is very important. A pastor must learn to "submit to the brethern". And this doesn't mean other TE's. It means the Session. If a pastor shows this type of humility, he shouldn't have too many problems, regardless of age or experience.

 for an old RE.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 29, 2006)

Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:

The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
John the Apostle: ? (His age may range from 17-31??)
Aurelius Augustine: 37 
John Calvin: 22 (He had his first chaplainry at age 12)
Christopher Love: 27
Jonathan Edwards: 15
Richard Baxter: 23

Careful: maturity cannot be simply measured in years.


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:
> 
> The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
> ...



Jesus, of course, had the advantage of being the Eternal Son of God.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 30, 2006)

Rev. Kevin,
Thats a minor detail 

blade


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## CDM (Jan 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> Here are Some young Elders who knew their Bible well:
> 
> The Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus Christ: 30 years old.
> ...



Agreed. I am made to think of Paul writing to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:11-16:

11 Command and teach these things. 12 *Let no one despise you for your youth*, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.


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## satz (Jan 30, 2006)

I still think caution is called for...

All those examples are well and good but as the Carl Trueman quote in the original post said, for every spurgeon (or calvin, or edwards etc) there are probably a 1000 who are not as qualified.

Its a simple fact that as far as men are concerned 'they don't make them like they used too' and we should take that into account before ordaining men to the ministry.

1 Tim 4:11-16 was written by Paul to Timothy, a man who Paul had already given his 'stamp of approval' to. I don't think the words can we applied to simply any young man who desires the ministry, because just like not every man is a spurgeon, most certainly not every man is a Timothy. If you are called, and happen to be young then by all means do not let men despise your youth. But if you are simply a young man desirous of a role in ministry, i believe it is wise to be humbly consider if you are ready at the moment.


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## fredtgreco (Jan 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Its a simple fact that as far as men are concerned 'they don't make them like they used too' and we should take that into account before ordaining men to the ministry.



I think this is a very interesting point in our culture in general today. Men get married later than they used to, and have children later. The single biggest factors in this is a reluctance on institutions (high school, parents, employers, etc) to make them grow up and the change in higher education. The enormous debt load is one thing, but today in order to get a decent job, often graduate work is required. Two generations ago, a high school education was sufficient (and most high schools did a better job than most colleges today). One generation ago, college was enough. Now even in the engineering fields graduate work is becoming the norm. That means older graduates, older husbands, etc.

Men often don't start "real life" until their late 20s now.


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## satz (Jan 30, 2006)

Fred, 

I think you raise a good point about how men in our generation leave school later and how that might contribute to lower levels of maturity amongst young men.

This is getting a little OT, but i just wanted to say it really is sad that this necessarily has to be the case. I certainly believe young males can start to be men (as opposed to boys) even when they are in university or college. Sure, studying is not as tough as working, but then some men have easier jobs then others. They might have to push themselves more because life won't push them (so much) during student life, but i think it is possible for young men to start maturing both spiritually and professionally even whilst completing their education.

Looking back, i certainly regret wasting away my late teens and early twenties on childish frivolities.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Looking back, i certainly regret wasting away my late teens and early twenties on childish frivolities.


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## polemic_turtle (Oct 17, 2006)

This is certainly a sobering thread. I'm contemplating a call to the ministry myself. Subjective experience is so hard to sort out, but I've been unnaturally sure about it before, having arrived there from formerly thinking that the pastorate was one of the worst decisions a man could make, financially speaking, and thus something I would hate to be called to do. Ahhh, hard to say.

As far as maturity goes, that is a serious concern for me. As of right now, I'm 17 and am about to enter into a business partnership with my father building a house. I've been working as a framer, job cleanup, handy man, etc from the time I was 11 and seriously since I was about 15 or 16. School has been neglected for work, but with a vision for College in the next year or two, I've a vision to prevent my perishing, so to speak, so school will become a priority. I hope I can be an exception to the general lack of maturity in this generation, which gives me hope that if I can wish that before it's too late, perhaps I shall be blessed to escape it. Lord help me!

As for the help of the local church in determining a call, I think that's sound doctrine, but difficult to apply in my situation. You see, my church's theological heritage is HyperCalvinist and they deny duty-faith, have a very low view of human responsiblity, etc, so while my burning desire is to preach evangelistically, I'd choke on every invitation or exhortation to the impenitent if I were to speak in their pulpit. I will not speak ill of my pastor, God bless him, but would mention that he has quite an admiration for Herman Hoeksema's theology, with which I'm appalled at many places. It's not easy to disagree at so early a stage in your theological development with your pastor; there is much temptation to overreact into something equally unwise, as I'm sure you'd agree. Please pray for me.

I'm looking into a university where I can major in classics and then use that to study theology more thoroughly, perhaps at a seminary. Oh, this will be a decision the Lord will have to guide me in, because I'm in over my head as far as certainty goes!

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by polemic_turtle]


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

A very interesting discussion.

As one who was a young seminarian (graduated @ 24, and now almost 35), but had a lot of second career friends, I can see relative strengths and weaknesses for both sides.

As has been noted above, the second career phenomenon is relatively new. The advantages of being young and unmarried in seminary are great: the ability to focus on one's studies and not neglect a family, the inexpensive nature of single living, etc. Some (by no means all) of the 2d career men with wife and children perpetually complained of the workload (I know this wasn't true of you Fred, but you are sui generis yourself!). 

But, as Fred rightly noted, an inexperienced pastor should not be a problem, IF he is surrounded by a well-trained and active eldership. IN my experience, however, such sessions are rare. Dutch Reformed consistories, in my experience, tend to be better, taking far more responsibility than your average PCA session. 

That is how, for instance, Seventh Reformed Church in Grand Rapids, when it had 1000 members, could run very well with only a senior pastor, a part time visitation minister, a youth guy, and a hapless intern (me). 

And, there are churches out there who are great training grounds for younger men. My first solo pastorate was like this. I buried 15 people in 3 years in a church of about 60 active members. I did a lot of hospital visits. And, the folks were very patient and appreciative. They knocked off my rough edges, too.

Unlike Fred, I do not see short pastorates as necessarily a negative thing. If you ever have to follow a long-term pastor, you will see why this is the case. Human weakness being what it is, people tend to get attached to particular men. I see this when I am gone for a Sunday, and people complain that the fill-in was "just not Ken." That is a sad commentary. Now, multiply that out over a number of years (I have been senior here for almost 4). Likewise, my predecessors have cadres who are loyal to them! They don't get that Paul and Apollos and Peter are simply servants. I try to remind people that the truth, and not who brings it, is paramount. But, they just don't get it!

We have come to embrace the idea that long-term pastorates are, in and of themselves, good things, perhaps on the models of Lloyd-Jones or Wm. Still. But, those were singular men. I remain unconvinced. Paul did not remain long anywhere. Even Titus, who was to organize the church on Crete, was not intended to stay there long (read the letter closely, if you don't believe me!).

I've rambled off topic long enough. I think one way the church can remedy the current situation (a glut of men, many who are unqualified, far too many ministers for churches, at least in the PCA) is to take a more proactive role in who goes to seminary, and not just rubber stamp every 23 year old college grad who doesn't know what to do with their life. Put them to work in the church first. Have them be mentored by the pastor, and prove their giftedness. Then, when the call is tested, PAY THEIR WHOLE WAY! 

Seminary should not saddle people with any debt, especially with the meagre salary of most pastors. And, seminaries should not accept anyone who can sign the check (not that all are like this, of course). Men should have a liberal arts background for ministry --no question about that-- or make non liberal arts folks take remedial courses in things like logic and grammar. They should not accept people with zero real ministry experience, either.

Okay, rant over.


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## CDM (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by CJ_Chelpka_
> ...



Well said, as usual Dr. Clark. "It's not a purely subjective judgment made by the candidate himself. It's a judgment made with others in the church." 



> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> If they are called by God to said office, maybe they should be mentored like Timothy was by Paul.





My church session confirmed my call and sent me to Presbytery to be confirmed as a candidate for the gospel ministry. This past July, it was confirmed, and I came "under care" of my Presbytery.

Around this time, I was asked by not a few TE's, "Why haven't you been in Seminary yet" or "How come you've waited".

"Well," I said, "I do not trust myself enough to confirm my own call. I trust God and his ministers and the authority over me to confirm it and send me to Seminary." "If you brothers saw fit I was not qualified or I needed more time then so be it".

The point is, I really believe that one ought to go through the process in order to make sure his call is legitimate. The man called needs to be discipled, needs to be checked up on, and needs close scrutiny of his entire life. 

Can anyone here imagine anything worse than flattering oneself into the Ministry only to discover at the Judgment God never sent you and you mistreated and abused His people?

I can't!


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## Romans922 (Oct 18, 2006)

Charles Spurgeon was 18 I believe.


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## CDM (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Oh...great idea......
> 
> Advise countless young men to fiddle away their most energetic years in secular pursuits while most of the world has little or no viable Gospel witness.



Who is a advising that?


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## py3ak (Oct 18, 2006)

If the PCA has too many ministers why don't they send out more missionaries?


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

Ruben,

We should. But, right now, missionaries and would-be missionaries I know and respect are having a very hard time raising enough $ to go. There are reasons for that. One is that missions agencies place a heavy burden on missionaries for administrative expense. Another is the oppressive expatriate taxes in countries like the UK and South Africa. And, yet another is that, since 9/11/2001, many church budgets continue to hurt.

We are doing some good things with mission though. The PCA has more missionaries than the PCUSA, though we are about 1/16th the size, and have no sizeable endowment like our wayward mother. Also, the partnership with nationals in various countries, and entrusting leadership to them, I regard as a very positive development.


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## wsw201 (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by KenPierce_
> Ruben,
> 
> We should. But, right now, missionaries and would-be missionaries I know and respect are having a very hard time raising enough $ to go. There are reasons for that. One is that missions agencies place a heavy burden on missionaries for administrative expense. Another is the oppressive expatriate taxes in countries like the UK and South Africa. And, yet another is that, since 9/11/2001, many church budgets continue to hurt.
> ...



One of the problems I have always had with the PCA and other churches is that they make their missionaries become fund raisers. Someone may be a good fund raiser but not a good missionary.

Sorry for getting off topic.


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## Romans922 (Oct 18, 2006)

So if we want to talk about missionaries and money we could start another topic. I am somewhat more concerned about me as a 24 yr old being a pastor, well I wouldnt be until 26 if I graduated and immediately was ordained.


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

The best missionaries are not good fundraisers. They are too busy working overseas! God has wired them for that, not for gladhanding little old ladies.

[Edited on 10-18-2006 by KenPierce]


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

Andrew,

I graduated from RTS Jackson @ 24 years old. Was I ready to be a pastor? No. But, there is something about being shoved out of the nest. What you need is a good internship, and I would also heartily counsel you to seek an assistant pastorate somewhere --one with a broad range of duties, not just a niche like youth. 

Then, attach yourself to your senior pastor. Pepper him with questions. Ask him for books. Get him to read through The Work of the Pastor, Preaching and Preachers, and Fairbairn's Pastoral Theology with you, and discuss his work.

Trust me, you will flatter him. He will love you, and build you into a pastor.


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## Romans922 (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm starting my internship this Feb. Books huh? Well, that is not possible, I don't even have money to pay for school let alone books.


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

Have your boss buy them for you! Most are very willing to do this. If you worked for me, I'd buy you books! ;-) Plus, the above would probably total about $35.

My first senior pastor (John R. de Witt) did this often --give me $100 for books. He was a fantastic mentor.

Will you be interning @ Redeemer?


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## py3ak (Oct 18, 2006)

Yes, I understand that fundraising is a problem. I think that mission boards need to revise some estimates sharply downwards. I am currently in Mexico City; of promised support we get $500.00 a month, although most months we get more like $700.00.
We have paid for a surgery for a little girl: large amounts of supplements for a very sick lady: a guy's bail; another guy's car (only means of income) payment; and given out books, small gifts, etc., etc.
One mission board I asked said that for a childless couple (which my wife and I are) the support norm per month is $3000.00.
Right now I don't pay rent or electricity: those are nice perks. Say those were added in. I would need $1000.00 a month (given that I've run through my savings since being here I do think the $700.00 figure is a little low. Make it $1200.00 so I can go the dentist and buy a waterproof jacket.
Where is that extra $1800.00 a month going?

P.S. I should add that Mexico City is a lot more expensive than some other parts of Mexico.

[Edited on 10-18-2006 by py3ak]


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## Philip A (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> Charles Spurgeon was 18 I believe.



Now there's an argument for waiting if I ever saw one....


/Ducks behind  to avoid the tomatoes



But to be serious for a moment, less than a year ago, I was on track for the eldership, preaching and teaching in my church, and serving as a deacon. It would have been a terrible thing for me to have entered the office, and the fact that I'm now a paedobaptist is the _least_ of the reasons. The lessons that I have learned in just a short amount of time - lessons about humility, suffering, the reality of living in a sin-cursed world, preaching, dealing with people, teaching people, being mistreated and slapped across the face by dear brethren in the faith - I would consider indispensable were I to ever be a pastor. There was a day when most of the people in my church thought me qualified. Some even told me that they were conviced that I would be their elder, and that very soon.

I now thank God that he kept both me and the church from that awful fate. It would have been disastrous for me and for them. The reality is that I'm not qualified to do much more than lurk on the PB and make silly, meaningless quips.

Didn't some well known person once say that they had to endure severe affliction and maturation before they were qualified and able to serve as a pastor? Who was that, I wonder?
:Owen:


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## backwoodspresbyterian (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritan Sailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



Amen Sailor. I come from a Church where my liaison to session has not called me or e-mailed once in two years to even check if I was still alive. My liaison to my Presbyteries CPM has wrote me a letter once in nearly two years. My previous liaison was relieved of his pastoral duties at his church. I yearn for some type of mentoring from someone.


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## KenPierce (Oct 18, 2006)

Trevor,

I agree with you that most churches commitment to missions is somewhere between pathetic and downright shameful. I don't have a better system to offer than itineration, but I do think it's sad that it does seem to favor newer missionaries over those with years of established faithfulness in the field.

And, some missions agencies take more than others. I don't think missionaries are overpaid, it is just that they don't get enough of what it costs to send them! 

Just out of curiosity, do you serve under the aegis of a mission board? If so, which? What do you see as its relative benefits over others?


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## py3ak (Oct 18, 2006)

Trevor, again I agree with you. $3000.00 is not a whole lot; and there is money for it. My point was simply that it can be done on even less. So it seems very difficult to imagine that money is the issue.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> On age and ministers:
> 
> I do not think that inexperience or lack of knowledge are the chief things hurting our churches....but lack of zeal.


As one who attends a Church where zeal, not according to knowledge, abounds I could not disagree more with this statement.

The emaciated nature of most Evangelical Churches is precisely due to this sickness. It is very "Warren"-esqe to assume that we need less doctrine and more action but that action is usually mis-directed.

I have respect for you and I don't want that fact to be lost but I really must remind you that saying "...well what about Spurgeon?" really has no bearing upon the Scriptural mandate.

I'm a bit hyper-sensitive to this kind of "just get out there and work" attitude right now because the ill effects the Franklin Graham crusade is having on our Church. The guest preacher we had for a number of months (who worked for the Graham organization) was de-frauding the Church of monies owed for months. The deacons refused to do anything about it until I found out about it because two women, who knew about the lack of integrity, could not stand to sit in the Church while he preached any more. I finally confronted the deacons with this ethical lapse and the high standard for Biblical leadership. The individual finally, when confronted sternly, paid the money owed.

Well the Deacons let him preach one last time. Do you know what his message was? He completely butchered the meaning of a passage to use as a segueway into what he wanted to talk about (a common practice among the poorly _trained_ Graham missionaries) and told us that we need to focus on the _important_ things. What were the important things: Telling people about Jesus. That's it. Everything else is unimportant.

I brought the deacons into an office after he left that Sunday and began laying out, in detail, what Scripture views are the _important_ things. The command at the end of the Gospels is to make _disciples_ after all.



> Ephesians 4:11
> 
> 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.



There is absolutely no getting around the requirement for maturity and training for such a standard. I respect certain zeal but some of it is just plain folly. I have more to say about the thread in general but I simply cannot let this idea go unchallenged. That idea that we need to just "...get out there and do..." is poisonous to the Evangelical faith. Every other organization that does anything with consequence does not put novices in charge of things. Yet we think that somehow the world gets turned upside down when a man becomes a minister and leave it to the realm of amateurs.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2006)

I agree with Rich but I raise a question to something else Trevor brought up that hasn't been discussed: the issue of working for a secular boss for an indefinite period of time. Paul had his tentmaking skill. Times might come where one cannot be in ministry for any number of reasons for any amount of time. He needs to find some other way to support his family.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 19, 2006)

With that specific concern off my chest I'd like to weigh in on this discussion. It seems there are a lot of old threads being resurrected these days.

I've been a Marine Officer for 16 years and a zealous Christian for most of those years but only Reformed and a serious student of the Word for about 10 years. As I've studied more about the role of Elders (something I've been nominated for on a couple of occasions) and matured in my leadership, I've always been struck at how compatible the concepts of leadership are between military leadership and the leadership of elders. All truth is God's truth after all and, because all men are created in His image, it ought not to surprise us that effectively leading and persuading a person is pretty much the same in any sphere of activity. The type of leadership is different and the oaths are different but the principles are pretty consistent.

My response to Trevor might have some believe that I am against young leadership. I am not. I was responding to, primarily, a specific concern. I am a huge believer in young leadership but, as I have evaluated leadership among most Churches and Presbyteries (independent of denomination), I generally believe that the amount of energy devoted to developing leadership is shameful. 

Leaders are made but they are also groomed. They are also mentored. The reason I believe in young leadership is I have witnessed countless 18 year old kids take responsibility for the lives of others and done so with self-sacrifice and with great results. I've seen countless 23 year old Lieutenants care for dozens of Marines in their charge. They've trained them, disciplined them, and counselled them.

Do they make mistakes? _All the time_. It is a bit amusing to me now to see young leaders in action. I love their zeal but, and this is important, I and other more senior leaders are there to keep them from doing to much damage when their zeal is mis-directed. Sometimes they take initiative and step beyond the bounds of their authority. Sometimes they want to hammer a Marine and write him off as a "dirtbag" when the Marine needs more attention.

If you've ever been in a large organization, you probably had this thought: "If I ever get into a position to change things then I will do this...." I used to be that young Officer who said the same thing and then found myself making the same decision when I was in the position to change it. Why? My perspective had changed. My maturity had increased. You learn certain things over time: people will lie to your face, the "nicest" men beat their wives, some zealous leaders steamroll over others and wreck their careers.

If you compare the amount of time and energy the Marine Corps spends on leadership development with a typical Presbytery, the comparison is shameful. Out of my 16 year career, the Marine Corps has sent me to school for about 4 years of that time. Professional Military Education is a constant process and that doesn't even count the amount of time I, and others, spend sitting down with our younger Marines and giving them course adjustments to their leadership.

I think, first of all, that far to many men are not exposed to high expectations and the stress that really refines and brings out leadership (or causes some to run away). Where is the mechanism in most Churches to pull a pastor aside and take him to task for his poor leadership in a constructive way? Honestly, if you're going to call a young TE then you better have a mature Session but do those who are more mature think of it as their responsiblity to help a young leader mature or do they just assume "...he'll figure it out."

In fact, just because a person has a lot of time in a leadership role doesn't mean he has matured in that role. I was appalled at one Church I attended at both the lack of knowledge that the elders had as well as their aloofness from the congregation. It wasn't that they didn't care but they never really sought out people in the congregation to get to know them. They didn't visit people in their homes. They didn't do anything to develop leadership in the men of the congregation except an Elders and Deacons class if somebody happened to be learning on their own. I was shocked at the ignorance of 13 year old boys that I taught Sunday School to. They were raised in that Church and some of them were completely ignorant of not only the Catechism but even of basic Biblical literacy. But their fathers seemed, in some cases, to be doing OK. How would the Elders know any different if they never sat down with them and led them.

There is just so much to say here. There are just so many fundamentals of leadership that are neglected that to go over all of them would be time prohibitive. I think my thoughts boil down to this:

1. Young leaders with initiative and zeal are extremely important
2. Young leaders need mentorship
3. If the Church has no mechanism to mentor them then even time pursuing secular goals is not going to necessarily teach them about leadership.
4. The Church needs to invest more time and energy developing leadership in all men to be in a position to notice those with special gifts and devote specific energy to mentoring those.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 19, 2006)

Fair Enough Brother.

You were probably typing while I formed my next reply to the thread in general.

I agree that there is a certain level of equipping, prior to the person becoming refined in all things, that we need to get them out the door and work. I also believe, however, that young leadership requires supervision because it gets misdirected and is naive in some cases.

I think that the idea of a professional ministry where the Pastor is seen as the fully prepared leader that has no need of growing is a bad model. New pastors need some care and the occasional loving "smack down" just like any other leader growing in wisdom.

I afford new Pastors the respect of their office but, with age and some experience, I see the common tells of new leadership among many of them. The benefit that a new Marine leader has is that he is instilled with the idea that he needs to seek advice. Many pastors are stilted with the notion that they're fully equipped and, combined with the confidence of youth, that can be dangerous sometimes.

There's an old joke that says that it's really dangerous when a Lieutenant says: "Based on my experience...."


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