# Poll:Herman Witsius,The Economy of the Covenants...



## blhowes (Jun 29, 2004)

Its common knowledge that 'The Economy of the Covenants between God and Man' by Herman Witsius may be one of the best explanations/defenses of covenant theology. I was just wondering if you, as a baptist or CT, have read it and what you thought of it? Were you a baptist when you read it and did it help 'convert' you? Were you a baptist and it didn't sway you one way or the other? Were you a CT when you read it and did it just confirm what you already believed?

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by blhowes]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 29, 2004)

[quote:5ce6577cd7]
Its common knowledge that &quot;The Economy of the Covenants between God and Man&quot; by Herman Witsius may be one of the best explanations/defenses of covenant theology.
[/quote:5ce6577cd7]

It is, unless you want to read through Calvin's institutes or Turretin's Institutes. However, I think Witsius is more theologically precise on this issue (and interrelated issues) than both Calvin and Turretin combined.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2004)

I've never read this book but from hearing things like this about it:

[quote:f593c7d181][i:f593c7d181]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:f593c7d181]
I think Witsius is more theologically precise on this issue (and interrelated issues) than both Calvin and Turretin combined. 
[/quote:f593c7d181]

I'll certainly have to place it high on my list. It's right after I finish Watson (Divinity) and the Institutes.


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## blhowes (Jun 29, 2004)

I've never read the book either, but I think I'd like to someday, maybe after I finish Calvin's Institutes, which won't be anytime soon. For now, I'll be satisfied to just read the [u:6327377ea5]summary[/u:6327377ea5] that Matthew wrote.

Bob


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## blhowes (Jun 29, 2004)

[b:ffd118594a]Matthew wrote:[/b:ffd118594a]
However, I think Witsius is more theologically precise on this issue (and interrelated issues) than both Calvin and Turretin combined.

I take it from the poll results (assuming you voted) that you read this when you believed in CT. Thinking back to your mindset back in the &quot;good old days&quot; when you were a reformed baptist, do you think this work of Witsius would have influenced you to change camps sooner if you read it as a baptist?

Bob


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2004)

[quote:62a769a0a8][i:62a769a0a8]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:62a769a0a8]
I've never read the book either, but I think I'd like to someday, maybe after I finish Calvin's Institutes, which won't be anytime soon. For now, I'll be satisfied to just read the [u:62a769a0a8]summary[/u:62a769a0a8] that Matthew wrote.

Bob [/quote:62a769a0a8]

I hadn't seen this, thanks for posting it. I think I can manage reading that right now. :thumbup:


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## Irishcat922 (Jun 30, 2004)

I've been trying to find a copy of it and the ones i've found ain't cheap! And being pesently unemployed it's hard to justify spending $$60-70 on two books. Anyone want to donate any to the Jones family library?


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## Bladestunner316 (Jun 30, 2004)

Capt Kirk has it on his site http://www.federaltheology.org/

blade


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## blhowes (Jun 30, 2004)

[b:fc01bb055e]Sean wrote:[/b:fc01bb055e]
I've been trying to find a copy of it and the ones i've found ain't cheap! And being pesently unemployed it's hard to justify spending $$60-70 on two books. Anyone want to donate any to the Jones family library?

Did you happen to see what Ian wrote in another thread recently. &quot;You can order a copy of Witsius' Economy of the Covenants at cvbbs.com. It's like 30 bucks.&quot;

BTW, how's your job search going? Any prospects? 

Bob


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## blhowes (Jun 30, 2004)

[b:f51538e242]David wrote:[/b:f51538e242]
I hadn't seen this, thanks for posting it. I think I can manage reading that right now. 

You bet. I too think I can manage reading that now. For me, its best to start with the training wheels before trying to pop a wheely. 

Bob


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## blhowes (Jul 1, 2004)

This is just a question for my fellow baptists? All the votes probably haven't been counted yet, and there are some questionable chads, but I found it interesting how few baptists have read most or all the book? If you're like me, size of the book and personal reading speed are definitely two reasons why I haven't read it yet. 

For those who haven't read most or all of it yet, is this a book that you eventually want to take the time to read? A part of me doesn't want to read it because it may be the most convincing book out there and I'm not sure I want to be convinced that his position is correct (just being honest). At the same time, if CT is correct and the book clearly and convincingly presents that correctness, then another part of me wants to read it so I can know the truth. Anybody else ever thought this way?

If you're a baptist and, like me, haven't read most or all of it, and your reasons are different from mine, what are your reasons for not reading it? 

Bob


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## Irishcat922 (Jul 1, 2004)

BTW, how's your job search going? Any prospects? 

I have a couple of things in the Works. Thanks for asking.


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## daveb (Jul 1, 2004)

[quote:9bb798005b][i:9bb798005b]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:9bb798005b]

A part of me doesn't want to read it because it may be the most convincing book out there and I'm not sure I want to be convinced that his position is correct (just being honest). At the same time, if CT is correct and the book clearly and convincingly presents that correctness, then another part of me wants to read it so I can know the truth. Anybody else ever thought this way?

[/quote:9bb798005b]

Bob, this is [b:9bb798005b]exactly[/b:9bb798005b] how I feel. To me this seems to be a must read book, especially after reading the summary you posted. I am a little fearful of changing my position (mostly of the side-effects) but at the same time I want to know the truth. This is a book I have to deal with, I just can't avoid it.


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 1, 2004)

[quote:2dbd05561d][i:2dbd05561d]Originally posted by daveb[/i:2dbd05561d]
[quote:2dbd05561d][i:2dbd05561d]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:2dbd05561d]

A part of me doesn't want to read it because it may be the most convincing book out there and I'm not sure I want to be convinced that his position is correct (just being honest). At the same time, if CT is correct and the book clearly and convincingly presents that correctness, then another part of me wants to read it so I can know the truth. Anybody else ever thought this way?

[/quote:2dbd05561d]

Bob, this is [b:2dbd05561d]exactly[/b:2dbd05561d] how I feel. To me this seems to be a must read book, especially after reading the summary you posted. I am a little fearful of changing my position (mostly of the side-effects) but at the same time I want to know the truth. This is a book I have to deal with, I just can't avoid it. [/quote:2dbd05561d]

Dave, 
I hated the side effects! Let me summarize them: First it was the wart on the end of my nose. Then the constipation. Then came the nausea and vomitting..........ooooohhhhhh. I can barely think of it....

Jus kiddin pal. Sorry, I'm in rare form tonight.


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## daveb (Jul 1, 2004)

[quote:9cfc5b890a][i:9cfc5b890a]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:9cfc5b890a]

Dave, 
I hated the side effects! Let me summarize them: First it was the wart on the end of my nose. Then the constipation. Then came the nausea and vomitting..........ooooohhhhhh. I can barely think of it....

Jus kiddin pal. Sorry, I'm in rare form tonight. [/quote:9cfc5b890a]

LOL! 

Thanks for the laugh!


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## blhowes (Jul 1, 2004)

[b:b371420b35]Dave wrote:[/b:b371420b35]
To me this seems to be a must read book, especially after reading the summary you posted. I am a little fearful of changing my position (mostly of the side-effects) but at the same time I want to know the truth. This is a book I have to deal with, I just can't avoid it.

I don't know about you, but if I should end up changing, I think it'll be a fascinating journey. It just seems like my thinking will have to change in so many different areas. First, there's the different way that baptists and CTs approach the interpretation of scripture. Then there's the differences in the way they view the church structure (unless I went to a reformed congregational church), not to mention the sacrament vs ordinance differences. 

But, you never know. We may end up reading Witsius' book, or Calvin's institutes, or the like, and not changing, but be more convinced that the baptist way is the correct way. I suppose there's only one way to find out.

Bob


[Edited on 7-2-2004 by blhowes]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 1, 2004)

[quote:4b778a10f1]
A part of me doesn't want to read it because it may be the most convincing book out there and I'm not sure I want to be convinced that his position is correct (just being honest). At the same time, if CT is correct and the book clearly and convincingly presents that correctness, then another part of me wants to read it so I can know the truth. Anybody else ever thought this way?
[/quote:4b778a10f1]

I have a whole stack of books on Exclusive Psalmody I have yet to pick up. They stare at me in the night like those pictures in the Haunted Mansion that follow you with thier eyes no matter where you walk in the room!


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## blhowes (Jul 2, 2004)

[b:5acd49a1a4]Matthew wrote:[/b:5acd49a1a4]
I have a whole stack of books on Exclusive Psalmody I have yet to pick up. They stare at me in the night like those pictures in the Haunted Mansion that follow you with thier eyes no matter where you walk in the room!

Matthew, I can't for the life of me understand why you don't just buckle down and read those books...you know, during your &quot;free time&quot; (1). See definition if necessary.

Couldn't you read them then?

Bob

[b:5acd49a1a4]Glossary:[/b:5acd49a1a4]
[b:5acd49a1a4](1) Free time,[/b:5acd49a1a4] from the Latin phrase freedamos timotheos, meaning those times during the day when you have nothing to do and you sit around stairing into space, wishing you could find something to do to occupy your time?


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## Ianterrell (Jul 2, 2004)

Somebody said they were having a difficult time finding a cheap copy of Witsius. Its about 30 dollars at Cvbbs.com. Enjoy.

Matt,

I'm really intrigued by accappella exclusive psalmnody myself. I'm really interested in this topic but I cannot expend too much time on it right now. I'll pick up a few articles on the way to a good book on this theme though God willing. 

In Christ,


Ian


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## Ianterrell (Jul 2, 2004)

Oh and I'm more than a third of a way through Witsius's work. Excellent reading! Logic on fire!


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## blhowes (Jul 2, 2004)

[b:744432a37c]Ian wrote:[/b:744432a37c]
Oh and I'm more than a third of a way through Witsius's work. Excellent reading! Logic on fire!

Just wondering if you've also read Calvin's Institutes and, if so, how would you compare the two? What strengths or weaknesses (if any) do you see in each? If you had make a recommendation, which would you say should be read first? Are they both equally as clear defending covenant/reformed theology?

I'm slowly reading Calvin's Institutes now and its such a blessing so far. 

Bob


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## Ianterrell (Jul 2, 2004)

Bob,

I've only read a fraction of Calvin at this point. A few chapters from his doctrine of God, a few on prayer, and his section on the sacraments. I use his book as a reference right now but I'm planning on finishing it after Witsius. I enjoyed both Calvin's and Witsius teaching on paedobaptism. I don't know how I'd compare them, sorry. Witsius has more of a context for the sacrament I feel than Calvin naturally because the work concerns the covenants. So with that in mind though I'm not 100% I'd probably say that Witsius has a better build up and follow through.


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## blhowes (Jul 2, 2004)

[b:7ea71867cb]Ian wrote:[/b:7ea71867cb]
Witsius has more of a context for the sacrament I feel than Calvin naturally because the work concerns the covenants. 

Now that's interesting. In an earlier post, I mentioned that there are several things that would need to change in my thinking if I were to change camps someday. One is the different way that the scriptures are viewed/interpretted and another was the different view of the sacraments or ordinances. Looks like two birds would be killed with one stone.

Bob


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## Ianterrell (Jul 4, 2004)

[quote:3a79aae044][i:3a79aae044]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:3a79aae044]
[b:3a79aae044]Ian wrote:[/b:3a79aae044]
Witsius has more of a context for the sacrament I feel than Calvin naturally because the work concerns the covenants. 

Now that's interesting. In an earlier post, I mentioned that there are several things that would need to change in my thinking if I were to change camps someday. One is the different way that the scriptures are viewed/interpretted and another was the different view of the sacraments or ordinances. Looks like two birds would be killed with one stone.

Bob [/quote:3a79aae044]

Yeah. That's what makes Witsius' book important to me. I'm glad that I've been exposed to his work so early in my considerations.


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## twogunfighter (Jul 22, 2004)

For Witsius vets:

I have just started the book. Iniatially there is alot of stuff about the covenant of works etc. that I already aggree with. I am sorely tempted to skip and go to the stuff that I think will be more interesting. Should I do this in the interest of reading time or continue to slog through so I don't miss some building stones?


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## LauridsenL (Jul 22, 2004)

Thanks in large part to recommendations by folks on this board, I'm looking forward to reading Witsius. I just ordered his Economy of the Covenants from the RTS Bookstore for about $36 -- for some reason I thought I'd checked CVBBS and that they didn't have it, but I was wrong. Wish I'd paid more attention to this thread!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 22, 2004)

Chuck,

I would NOT suggest skipping the CoW. There is quite a bit of information there that will "click" later on (things you may not have thought about) that are vitally important to Christ's role as the 2nd Adam.


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## twogunfighter (Jul 23, 2004)

Figured that was the case. Will continue chewing.


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