# "Advent" Candles, circumstance or will worship



## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

I know this already has come up this month but this was a Facebook memory so I thought I'd post it on PB too.
Advent candles. 
Opinion: A candle is either a circumstance or a part of worship. If a candle is for lighting it is a mere indifferent circumstance. If it is only used for _special _times (and that being times long steeped in will worship), has a _special _name, is invested with some kind of meaning and there are actions aka ceremonies attached to it, it is not a circumstance; thus it is a part of the worship, and none of those things being prescribed by God’s Word, it is will worship.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 20, 2019)

What if the candles were lit prior to the call to worship?


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## Romans922 (Dec 20, 2019)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What if the candles were lit prior to the call to worship?



As a former PCA Pastor, that sounds like a very PCA thing to do so one doesn't get in trouble. "Well, technically, we didn't light it during worship..." But in the end, you are lighting the candle for worship without it being a circumstance.

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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What if the candles were lit prior to the call to worship?


What difference does that make? It's lit to give light or it is lit as a ceremony.

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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

1. What if the candle is _only_ used for lighting at certain times? No special ceremony attached to it, and no special name.

2. What if the congregation is gathered at night and goes outside of the church building and sings worship songs, with candles as the outdoor light source?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

Why is it used only at certain times? Is it really just part of the broader added ceremony of adding times and seasons of our own devising? If it's for light, one can argue the wisdom of that maybe with kids, or the effectiveness in weather; but again, why? Is it because its December and a certain pretended holy day is near? These types of things are not done in a vacuum. These things are driven by underlying presumptions that there is something special about the time because we say there is. We add special light, music, way of doing things, to underscore that belief. 


Rutherglen1794 said:


> 1. What if the candle is _only_ used for lighting at certain times? No special ceremony attached to it, and no special name.
> 
> 2. What if the congregation is gathered at night and goes outside of the church building and sings worship songs, with candles as the outdoor light source?

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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Why is it used only at certain times? Is it really just part of the broader added ceremony of adding times and seasons of our own devising? If it's for light, one can argue the wisdom of that maybe with kids, or the effectiveness in weather; but again, why? Is it because its December and a certain pretended holy day is near? These types of things are not done in a vacuum. These things are driven by underlying presumptions that there is something special about the time because we say there is. We add special light, music, way of doing things, to underscore that belief.



Okay. I’m just trying to think if there are any situations where it’s not so black and white, and you know much more than me about it. 

What if candles are used as replacements for lightbulbs? Okay in June, not okay in December?

What if lanterns are used in place of lightbulbs? 

When does a light source change from circumstance to element? Only in December?


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## James 1689 (Dec 20, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> If it is only used for _special _times (and that being times long steeped in will worship), has a _special _name, is invested with some kind of meaning and there are actions aka ceremonies attached to it, it is not a circumstance; thus it is a part of the worship,


I agree with your thought on this subject. As a former SBC pastor, we had a room full of seasonal worship props. There was the cross with a purple piece of fabric for Easter. Candles for Christmas, and of course the fall festival was its own unique beast with Pumpkins and cornucopia for the remembrance table. These are nothing more than sermon illustrations that are used to set the ambience of a particular holiday or worship service. No different than when a church turns down the lights and plays music to create a mood for worship. These take away from the sufficiency of scripture and try to motivate or persuade the congregation into worship not relying on the Holy Spirit. I once had someone tell me they could not get their worship on because we sang hymns.


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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

James 1689 said:


> I once had someone tell me they could not get their worship on because we sang hymns.


Same argument used by EP’ers. Interesting. I didn’t realize they had anything in common with seeker-sensitive evangelical “churches”.

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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

I think the issue is choosing candle light, particularly the last 100 years in Protestant churches, was/is to make the worship special. If it is a regular lighting option in a culture that is not associated with such thinking, the choice becomes a non issue. But we in first world countries only talk about candle light in December. So it is sort of a mute point. No one does xmas in July but the stores. Candles are part of the broader over arching added ceremony of xmas or Advent.



Rutherglen1794 said:


> Okay. I’m just trying to think if there are any situations where it’s not so black and white, and you know much more than me about it.
> 
> What if candles are used as replacements for lightbulbs? Okay in June, not okay in December?
> 
> ...

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## Tom Hart (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Same argument used by EP’ers. Interesting. I didn’t realize they had anything in common with seeker-sensitive evangelical “churches”.


What EPers say that they can't "get their worship on" because of hymns?

I have to assume your comment is intended as a joke, but it's hard to determine the tone. It comes off as an uncharitable jab.

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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> What EPers say that they can't "get their worship on" because of hymns?
> 
> I have to assume your comment is intended as a joke, but it's hard to determine the tone. It comes off as an uncharitable jab.



Not a joke in the slightest. EP’ers don’t worship by singing old hymns, and nor do a lot of seeker-sensitive churches. Just an interesting thought. I don’t see the need for offense. None was intended. 



NaphtaliPress said:


> I think the issue is choosing candle light, particularly the last 100 years in Protestant churches, was/is to make the worship special. If it is a regular lighting option in a culture that is not associated with such thinking, the choice becomes a non issue. But we in first world countries only talk about candle light in December. So it is sort of a mute point. No one does xmas in July but the stores. Candles are part of the broader over arching added ceremony of xmas or Advent.



Understood.

If the Lord’s Day fell on December 24, and the power went out for the evening service, would you feel comfortable using candles?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

Of course; why not? It is necessary for light at that point. They could even be old left over advent candles from the church's unReformed past if that was all that could be had. 


Rutherglen1794 said:


> Not a joke in the slightest. EP’ers don’t worship by singing old hymns, and nor do a lot of seeker-sensitive churches. Just an interesting thought. I don’t see the need for offense. None was intended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

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## Tom Hart (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Not a joke in the slightest. EP’ers don’t worship by singing old hymns, and nor do a lot of seeker-sensitive churches. Just an interesting thought. I don’t see the need for offense. None was intended


If you do really think that we sing psalms only because we "can't get our worship on" with hymns, you are quite uninformed about the EP position, and you would do well to learn a bit about it before making hasty remarks.

Indeed, the comparison between EP and seeker-sensitive churches is an odd one. One aims to be true to Scripture, the other aims to please.

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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Of course; why not? It is necessary for light at that point. They could even be old left over advent candles from the church's unReformed past if that was all that could be had.


That has all the makings of a slanderous Pulpit & Pen article waiting to happen. 

“Lakewood Presbyterian Church Holds Candlelit Christmas Eve Service.”


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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> If you do really think that we sing psalms only because we "can't get our worship on" with hymns, you are quite uninformed about the EP position, and you would do well to learn a bit about it before making hasty remarks.
> 
> Indeed, the comparison between EP and seeker-sensitive churches is an odd one. One aims to be true to Scripture, the other aims to please.


Do you realize how easily offended you are being?

I obviously didn’t mean that the exact words and the exact grammar from that post are the exact way that someone holding to EP would express themselves. 

Stop getting hung up on the “can’t get our worship on” part. I was commenting on the shared general dislike of old hymns by two diametrically opposed groups. The fact that for many people the EP position is arrived at after searching the Scriptures only adds to the point. 

It is you who needs to watch before making hasty remarks.


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## Smeagol (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Same argument used by EP’ers. Interesting. I didn’t realize they had anything in common with seeker-sensitive evangelical “churches”.


Says the guy trying to find a place for candles

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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> That has all the makings of a slanderous Pulpit & Pen article waiting to happen.
> 
> “Lakewood Presbyterian Church Holds Candlelit Christmas Eve Service.”


I haven't read much of them but that's sort of the MO of a lot of slander. I've been at LPC since 2007 and at least since then I know they have not had an xmas eve or special services. The xmas nod has minimized down now to a few innocuous decorations and some stubborn traditional hymns. I'll know this week if we get an advent sermon or not. The pastor is not a big church calendar guy. If he wants to do a resurrection sermon or nativity sermon at those times he does; if he doesn't he doesn't. He knows my views (sister's husband).

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## VictorBravo (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> If the Lord’s Day fell on December 24, and the power went out for the evening service, would you feel comfortable using candles?



Not me. People these days don't know how to use candles. But cellphone flashlight apps would probably do in a pinch.

An aside on the candle-safety issue. Back in the late 90s we attended an evangelical church on the island where we lived. They always had the standard Christmas eve candle service.

2:30 AM after one such service, the church building was fully engulfed in flames. It turns out someone forgot to blow the last candle out. It was in a metal candle holder until the little flame got low enough to reach the metal. Wax melted and what was left of the wick fell to the side and touched off one of the carol pamphlets. Away it all went.


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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

G said:


> Says the guy trying to find a place for candles



A hypothetical place, mind you. Just making sure the armour is sound, checking it in different areas.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 20, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Do you realize how easily offended you are being?


Offended? Not at all. I pointed out that your comment appeared uncharitable. Personal offence has nothing to do with it.


Rutherglen1794 said:


> I obviously didn’t mean that the exact words and the exact grammar from that post are the exact way that someone holding to EP would express themselves.


That wasn't obvious, I think, since you said it was the "same argument" (which, to be plain, it is not).


Rutherglen1794 said:


> It is you who needs to watch before making hasty remarks.


I have noticed that you have written some apparently unkind or uncharitable comments. ("PB is just poison sometimes" is one recent example.) I would urge you to have greater care concerning matters with which you disagree.

I'll add that this is an internet forum, and tone is not as straighforward as in spoken language.

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## W.C. Dean (Dec 20, 2019)

This advent season is the first that I've been Reformed at all, and also the first (consequently) I've had a relatively negative view of 'enhanced' worship time or special holiday services, like the candlelight service our church is having on Christmas Eve. I'll point out, this is not my OPC church, rather an SBC church I attend with my mother on Sabbath mornings. The pastor is Reformed, a dear friend, and has mentored me, but we break on a few issues, namely baptism and worship. 

I actually won't be participating in any candle lighting this year however, because I'll be upstairs changing the slides for all the Christmas carols we'll be singing! Ideal? No, but I signed up for that job long before I ever had any convictions about Psalm-singing and worship services. 

Mr. Coldwell, do you have any advice on relaying how I feel about a special candlelight service to my pastor? I'd like to understand a little bit more of the objection to it, beyond the "it's not a prescribed service in Scripture", which my Reformed Baptist pastor doesn't care about, he espouses John Frame's view of worship. Thank you, and have a happy and merry normal December month!

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## Username3000 (Dec 20, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Offended? Not at all. I pointed out that your comment appeared uncharitable. Personal offence has nothing to do with it.
> 
> That wasn't obvious, I think, since you said it was the "same argument" (which, to be plain, it is not).
> 
> ...



Please forgive me. I will try to be mindful of this moving forward.


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## Eoghan (Dec 20, 2019)

When Luther popularised candles on trees did he do so at home privately or in church?


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 21, 2019)

Christmas is the most wonderful time of the year. While not holy, it is helpful. I thank God for the cultural occurrence that enables me to have a very natural segue into the application of spiritual truth to human malaise brought on and accentuated by the cultural push for the “Christmas spirit.” 
Of course we light Advent candles - and prior to the call to worship during announcements, and regardless of what naysayers say, that’s a perfectly legitimate practice.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Dec 21, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> While not holy, it is helpful.


Agreed.


SolaScriptura said:


> Of course we light Advent candles - and prior to the call to worship during announcements, and regardless of what naysayers say, that’s a perfectly legitimate practice.


Disagreed.

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.—Deuteronomy 12:32

The acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.—WCF 21.1; BCF 22.1

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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Please forgive me. I will try to be mindful of this moving forward.


I appreciate this gracious reply, and I'll add that I am at least as guilty of uncharitable language here. There's one member of the PB to whom I owe thanks for pointing it out in a private message.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> Christmas is the most wonderful time of the year. While not holy, it is helpful. I thank God for the cultural occurrence that enables me to have a very natural segue into the application of spiritual truth to human malaise brought on and accentuated by the cultural push for the “Christmas spirit.”
> Of course we light Advent candles - and prior to the call to worship during announcements, and regardless of what naysayers say, that’s a perfectly legitimate practice.


That is an opinion without support. What of elements and circumstances (per the OP)?


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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

Pastor Ben,



SolaScriptura said:


> Christmas is the most wonderful time of the year. While not holy, it is helpful.


Are you not making it holy by having a full worship service and adding candle lighting during announcements?



SolaScriptura said:


> Of course we light Advent candles - and prior to the call to worship during announcements, and regardless of what naysayers say, that’s a perfectly legitimate practice.


Would you also be willing to light Incense before the the call? Why or why not?

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## Ed Walsh (Dec 21, 2019)

W.C. Dean said:


> Mr. Coldwell, do you have any advice on relaying how I feel about a special candlelight service to my pastor?



I can tell you what I did. I quoted Chris's original post and sent it to my pastor and elder. Whether they disagree or agree doesn't change the clear logic of the syllogism.


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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

Often it seems otherwise faithful Pastors try to find some way to uphold the candle lightings because of congregational pressure. Otherwise the congregations might maul them. I doubt any faithful Reformed Seminarians would invent the practice themselves.

Here is a good question: Why can’t you try to intentionally drop the practice for 1 year?

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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 21, 2019)

Because as you say, they would be mauled/fired. It is often if not the case most of the time that Reform cannot be made overnight. Calvin was banished from Geneva in the context amongst other things of the re imposition of 5 holy days at the insistence of the City of Bern (Bern had saved Geneva's bacon, and felt owed its conformity to Bern's practices), which he and Farel had abandoned for only the Lord's Day two years earlier in 1636. Four years later when Geneva had descended into anarchy and had enough of that and pleaded with Calvin to returned, he allowed the days to be retained even though at that point he had the moral authority to order them away again. He did so because the Reformation in the city itself was in peril. It took a decade with continued attempts to minimize the days before they were outlawed and a much more reduced compromise was in place that retained only a nativity sermon at the end of December. So I don't want to minimize as valid that sometimes some actions must be measured or delayed or one's ability of doing any good at all will cease when folks move on to the next guy who will give them what they want much as Geneva had done. The difference between Calvin and today, is he recognized he had compromised and knew he had to continue to work for reform. 


G said:


> Often it seems otherwise faithful Pastors try to find some way to uphold the candle lightings because of congregational pressure. Otherwise the congregations might maul them. I doubt any faithful Reformed Seminarians would invent the practice themselves.
> 
> Here is a good question: Why can’t you try to intentionally drop the practice for 1 year?

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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The difference between Calvin and today, is he recognized he had compromised and knew he had to continue to work for reform.


This would indeed make me feel a lot better than actually defending the practice are perfectly okay.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 21, 2019)

If you are having conscience about your participation, come to clear conviction so you know it is yours and not from what others say, and while you don't need to defend a thesis, at least be able to explain what the doctrine is guiding your conscience and that while you don't have everything worked out or can answer every question, you need to reduce your participation. 


W.C. Dean said:


> Mr. Coldwell, do you have any advice on relaying how I feel about a special candlelight service to my pastor? I'd like to understand a little bit more of the objection to it, beyond the "it's not a prescribed service in Scripture", which my Reformed Baptist pastor doesn't care about, he espouses John Frame's view of worship. Thank you, and have a happy and merry normal December month!





Ed Walsh said:


> I can tell you what I did. I quoted Chris's original post and sent it to my pastor and elder. Whether they disagree or agree doesn't change the clear logic of the syllogism.

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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

I make a motion that @W.C. Dean change his avatar because I keep mistaking him for @JimmyH (who has seniority)

Or is it just me!


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## JimmyH (Dec 21, 2019)

G said:


> I make a motion that @W.C. Dean change his avatar because I keep mistaking him for @JimmyH (who has seniority)
> 
> Or is it just me!


@G Seniority aside, I've changed mine ... better picture of me anyway ...

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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> @G Seniority aside, I've changed mine ... better picture of me anyway ...


Nice to finally see the real you!

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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> Christmas is the most wonderful time of the year. While not holy, it is helpful.



Umm, I wonder if what you said is true? If it is "the most wonderful time of the year" how is it set apart as "not holy"?


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## W.C. Dean (Dec 21, 2019)

G said:


> I make a motion that @W.C. Dean change his avatar because I keep mistaking him for @JimmyH (who has seniority)
> 
> Or is it just me!



I thank Mr. JimmyH for changing his! I love Dr. Murray, also I feel it represents my situation. An exclusive psalmist within the OPC.

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## Smeagol (Dec 21, 2019)

From _A Practical Exsposition of the Ten Commandments _by James Durham, RHB & Naphtali Press Corrected and Revised Edition/ pg. 57

Under ways we break God’s 2nd Commandment.



> (2) Men sin against this command when they practice will-worship and superstition in serving God by duties He never required. Whether [1] It be will-worship in respect of the service itself, as when that is gone about as duty which is not in itself lawful, as when such and such pilgrimages and penances are appointed by men to be done as service to God.





> [4] When it is without a divine warrant tied to such a time only, as Christmas (commonly called Yule), Easter, Pasch, etc., which is an observing of times that God has not appointed.

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## Ed Walsh (Dec 21, 2019)

Ed Walsh said:


> I can tell you what I did. I quoted Chris's original post and sent it to my pastor and elder. Whether they disagree or agree doesn't change the clear logic of the syllogism.


 @NaphtaliPress 

One of the elders wrote back to me and responded with these words:

Interesting. Not being defensive here (because I’m surprisingly sympathetic to the RPW), but how would this principle be distinguished between non-structural design elements of the sanctuary? Chamfered baseboards, for example?​
Here's what I wrote in reply:

Dear Ted, [_not his real name_]​
We don't call the "Chamfered baseboards" by a special name, at a special time of the year and draw attention to them and read Scripture around them. Clearly, you must realize the difference between Chamfered baseboards and the advent wreath and candles. Take thought for yourself about a powerful, almost irresistible force at work in the human heart. Consider the words of Jesus as He explains the real reason why people did not accept His teaching. There were no metaphysical difficulties. Just this one reason. "because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:45) It was *because* He told the truth that men would not believe.

Ted, the truth is, you know the difference between Chamfered baseboards and the advent wreath. I will not try to convince you that special names and special seasons and drawing attention to an object makes it an element of worship. You already know the truth. If I tried to persuade you of that truth, it would give you an out. "Well, Ed thinks I might not know the truth of what he says, and that's the way I like it. Maybe he's right? Maybe I don't know."​

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2019)

Ed Walsh said:


> @NaphtaliPress
> 
> One of the elders wrote back to me and responded with these words:
> 
> ...


It’s great that you’re able and willing to communicate these things with your church, Ed. May the Lord bless your efforts.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 21, 2019)

If all that is going on is a church lady has put plastic holly and a red candle on each windowsill then we can talk about whether decorations (which are a circumstance) associated with the holy day season are appropriate in the church. That brings in the rules that govern something allegedly indifferent (how the church is decorated and when). But something brought into the worship service with functions and meaning put upon them are part of the worship of God and there is no allowance for ceremonies of man's devising. Will worship is not circumscribed by the call to worship. That is insane to my Presbyterian ears. Or at least it is a rejection of the regulative principle and insisting on a normative principle outside the call to worship. No where is that taught in a Reformed understanding of what the Scriptures have to say about the worship of God. 


Ed Walsh said:


> @NaphtaliPress
> 
> One of the elders wrote back to me and responded with these words:
> 
> ...


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