# Do you say 'Amen' after public prayers?



## Travis Fentiman (Jul 8, 2015)

Do you say 'Amen' at the end of public prayers? Why or why not? If it is of interest, the link below contains some of scripture's teaching about it. 


Saying 'Amen' After Public Prayers ​


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## Edward (Jul 8, 2015)

It depends.


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## Philip (Jul 8, 2015)

Yes. Because it is just and right so to do.


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## Edward (Jul 8, 2015)

Philip said:


> Yes. Because it is just and right so to do.



Unconditionally? Without regard to content or delivery?


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## Philip (Jul 8, 2015)

Edward said:


> Unconditionally? Without regard to content or delivery?



It is unclear what you mean by delivery. As to content, the number of prayers to which I could not assent is so small as to be negligible.


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## Romans922 (Jul 9, 2015)

Yes, it is the example of Scripture for the congregation to say Amen.

1 Cor. 14:16
2 Cor 1:20 - notice specifically the use of the definite article before "yes" = "the Yes"
Neh. 8:6
Ps. 106:48
Rev. 19:4


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## MW (Jul 9, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Yes, it is the example of Scripture for the congregation to say Amen.
> 
> 1 Cor. 14:16



Must we all become unlearned?


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## johnny (Jul 9, 2015)

Our Church also sings Amen after singing Hymns and Psalms.
Amen is also used after public confession of the Lords Prayer.
We also close every service with singing Amen.

Thats around six Amens per service, 
I have noticed that little children particulary like singing Amen.
I am mindful that it should always be done with reverence.


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## earl40 (Jul 9, 2015)

MW said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it is the example of Scripture for the congregation to say Amen.
> ...



Can you explain what you mean by your reply? The context in1 Cor. 14 appears to be that it would be appropiate to say amen if one can comprehend and agree with what is said.


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## crixus (Jul 9, 2015)

I always say..._in Jesus name. Amen._


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## Jake (Jul 9, 2015)

crixus said:


> I always say..._in Jesus name. Amen._



Does the whole congregation or just you?


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## KMK (Jul 9, 2015)

Being a TR guy, I stick with the WSC:



> Q. 107. What doth the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer teach us?
> A. The conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer, which is, For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen, teacheth us to take our encouragement in prayer from God only, and in our prayers to praise him, ascribing kingdom, power, and glory to him; and, *in testimony of our desire, and assurance to be heard, we say, Amen.*


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## Cymro (Jul 9, 2015)

Recalling that Samuel Miller had a section on this topic in his book
on Public Prayer, I dug it out and read it again. He does not seem to favour 
a public response, although he does give examples of use in the early church,
"It would seem from 1Cor14:16, that it was customary in the Apostolic Church
for those who united in prayer, to signify their assent to what had been uttered,
by saying Amen at the close. And if this were done wisely and soberly,and with a truly
devout spirit, it might still be useful. ---------In all Presbyterian churches throughout
the world, the officiating Minister, it is believed, is in the habit of pronouncing this
word himself, which all his fellow worshippers are expected to silently to adopt and make
their own. In the directory of prayer which our blessed Lord gave to his disciples, he adds 
the Amen himself, precisely in the manner customary among us. He did not leave it to be supplied
by him who heard or adopted the prayer. Why should not then the man who leads in prayer pronounce
this emphatic word himself?"---- he goes on to stress that it must be emphatic and not said with
with a dismissive tone, but with a distinct,tender,emphatic manner, which indicates real feeling
and earnest desire.
What interested me is the pronounciation of Amen. I have always thought to pronounce it A-men 
(A- as in amiable)was an American import by Billy Graham and that kind of evangelist, but Miller
informs "that in the word Amen both syllables ought to be accented. It is the only word in the
English language of two syllables, that has two consecutive accents. If this be so,then the first syllable or letter should be pronounced as, a, in amiable, and be marked by a strong accent; 
and the second with equal distictness of accent, thus making a clear, distinct, and strongly
Marked utterance of A-Men."


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## Jack K (Jul 9, 2015)

That article linked in the OP seems to state the case a bit too strongly in saying that if we fail to speak an audible "amen" it is the equivalent of not praying, and that we should not expect the full blessings God might otherwise grant from our prayer unless we pray aloud. Did anyone else find that to be overreaching?


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## johnny (Jul 9, 2015)

I found this article by R D Anderson Jr interesting.
In the article he argues against the use of Amen in public worship.

http://www.opc.org/OS/html/V7/4d.html

I post the link by way of interest only.
I am happy to stand with KMK and the WCF on this one.


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## JimmyH (Jul 9, 2015)

Cymro said:


> It is the only word in the
> English language of two syllables, that has two consecutive accents. If this be so,then the first syllable or letter should be pronounced as, a, in amiable, and be marked by a strong accent;
> and the second with equal distictness of accent, thus making a clear, distinct, and strongly
> Marked utterance of A-Men."


 That is an interesting point. I once pointed out, semi tongue in cheek, that moving from the Baptist (SBC) persuasion, to the Presbyterian (OPC) I found the biggest difference to be Baptists say A-men, and Presbyterians say Ah-men. I get annoyed with some pastors, mostly heard on the radio, though I've known some Baptist pastors in the past, who interject Amen into every other sentence. 



Jack K said:


> That article linked in the OP seems to state the case a bit too strongly in saying that if we fail to speak an audible "amen" it is the equivalent of not praying, and that we should not expect the full blessings God might otherwise grant from our prayer unless we pray aloud. Did anyone else find that to be overreaching?


I to find that to be 'overreaching.' God knows our heart. In the church I attend I say a quiet Amen at the end of public prayer. I understand Edward's caveat in post # 2 of this thread. I've never heard a prayer at my congregation that I couldn't heartily say Amen to, but I surely listen to the content, and do not just respond in a 'knee jerk' manner. When I say Amen, I mean it.


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## MW (Jul 9, 2015)

earl40 said:


> Can you explain what you mean by your reply?



The unlearned is that part of the congregation which has not been endowed with the gift of languages or the ability to translate.


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## Andrew P.C. (Jul 9, 2015)

MW said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Can you explain what you mean by your reply?
> ...



Isn't Paul making the point to speak in the common language when praying so that one can say "Amen"? The one speaking is to pray with the spirit and the mind, not just the spirit (this is what I assume you are referring to by the unlearned). IF Andrew is writing this in the affirmative, then I guess I'm confused on your response. 

Sorry, sometimes I'm just a little slower then others.


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## MW (Jul 9, 2015)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Isn't Paul making the point to speak in the common language when praying so that one can say "Amen"? The one speaking is to pray with the spirit and the mind, not just the spirit (this is what I assume you are referring to by the unlearned).



It is part of the overall argument for the importance of prophecy and the interpretation of tongues over unintelligible speech. The unlearned are those who are unskilled in these things. They are placed with unbelievers in vv. 23-25, and form a distinct group who witness the exercise of the charismata. For this to be a precedent for the congregational "Amen," the congregation will have to be regarded as uninitiated spectators of the manifestation of spiritual gifts.


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## JimmyH (Jul 9, 2015)

MW said:


> Andrew P.C. said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't Paul making the point to speak in the common language when praying so that one can say "Amen"? The one speaking is to pray with the spirit and the mind, not just the spirit (this is what I assume you are referring to by the unlearned).
> ...


So Reverend Winzer, if I am understanding your point correctly, it is that the verses, 1 Cor.:14-16, are not applicable in proving that Scripture dictates an Amen from the congregation following public prayer ? If I am understanding you correctly, are there any verses which do recommend the Amen from the congregation that you are aware of ?


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## MW (Jul 9, 2015)

JimmyH said:


> If I am understanding you correctly, are there any verses which do recommend the Amen from the congregation that you are aware of ?



None. The minister is the voice of the congregation in prayer. His "Amen" suffices for a testimony of the congregation's desire and assurance to be heard.


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## psycheives (Jul 10, 2015)

Does anyone practice any differently in public non-Church prayers? I am open to sharpening on this one, but currently I choose to rarely close with "in Jesus' name, amen" because I find that so many people use this like a formula and actually put no thought into their words. Additionally, they think that if they don't close like this, their prayers won't be heard. Sometimes they forget to say "in Jesus name" and so they panic and throw it on after they are done, as if it were a requirement. The same with "Amen." I find mixing it up and closing differently causes people to pause and think and recognize the meaning behind the words.

Also, "amen" is Hebrew and when asking people what it meant, they would give different answers and weren't sure. Why add a foreign language to add confusion? Why wasn't "amen" translated to English? If I exchange an English equivalent of "let it be so" or "truly," then in regular English, I wouldn't actually use it. Imagine praying and throwing on "truly" or "verily" at the end. What does that even mean? Or even "let it be so" or "so be it"? Why would I pray and say "let it be so"? What would my meaning be behind it? That I really meant what I prayed for? Well, I hope I really meant what I prayed for as I prayed it. Throwing on these words wouldn't seem to change or add anything. Thus, currently, I refrain. I don't speak Hebrew at any other time, why here? Especially when it leads to confusion and misunderstanding among many Christians?

[Thanks to Travis for Hebrew correction]


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## earl40 (Jul 10, 2015)

MW said:


> JimmyH said:
> 
> 
> > If I am understanding you correctly, are there any verses which do recommend the Amen from the congregation that you are aware of ?
> ...



May I assume we in the congregation are "allowed" to say amen from the heart in agreement with our pastors prayers, and that you believe it is not proper to say Amen out loud as regulated by the RPW?


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## Travis Fentiman (Jul 10, 2015)

psycheives said:


> ..."amen" is Greek and when asking people what it meant, they would give different answers and weren't sure. Why add a foreign language to add confusion? Why wasn't "amen" translated to English?
> ...I don't speak Greek at any other time, why here? Especially when it leads to confusion and misunderstanding among many Christians?




Psyche,


Great thoughts. These are all certainly things we should consider. I personally wish we had a popular English equivalent to Amen, which may be more suitable than the Hebrew word. Regarding the Amen being in a different language, if it is of interest, William Gouge gives some reasons to continue its use. I thought it may be something to consider.


_A Guide to Go to God_, 1626, reprinted by Reformation Heritage Books, 2011


Objection: Amen is a Hebrew word: that language is understood of very few: why then is it used of all nations, of all people in all nations, learned and unlearned?

Answer: 

1. The apostles, though they spoke, and wrote not in Hebrew, but in Greek, yet they used this Hebrew word (Rom. 1:15): so as we have an express warrant for retaining this word in another language. 

2. Continual use has made it familiar to all persons, of all languages, in all nations. So as it is everywhere as a proper vulgar, mother word. Thus these two titles Jesus Christ, though the one be Hebrew, and the other Greek, are made so familiar, as in all languages they are retained.

3. No other one word so fit for the purpose, can in any other language be invented, as Amen is. Not without reason therefore, and just cause is it, that it has been made a word of all languages. It comprises under it whatsoever is expressed or understood in and by the speech whereunto it is added. These words (‘Cursed be he that confirms not all the words of this Law to do them’) had a large extent: yet the Amen, which the people were to say thereto, extended itself as far.​

Here is a link to the larger context of the Gouge quote, if it is of interest.



William Gouge on Saying 'Amen'
​


What do you think?


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## MW (Jul 10, 2015)

earl40 said:


> May I assume we in the congregation are "allowed" to say amen from the heart in agreement with our pastors prayers, and that you believe it is not proper to say Amen out loud as regulated by the RPW?



Yes; if one assents, a silent but hearty Amen is appropriate. Of course, if he does not assent to all that has been said, he is equally permitted to ponder his doubts when he has time. In the same respect, if the "Amen" were vocal, one would have to provide liberty for a vocal dissent, which would lead to all sorts of disorder.


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## Afterthought (Jul 10, 2015)

MW said:


> It is part of the overall argument for the importance of prophecy and the interpretation of tongues over unintelligible speech. The unlearned are those who are unskilled in these things. They are placed with unbelievers in vv. 23-25, and form a distinct group who witness the exercise of the charismata. For this to be a precedent for the congregational "Amen," the congregation will have to be regarded as uninitiated spectators of the manifestation of spiritual gifts.


Why would only the unskilled say "Amen"? The skilled would be able to understand what was being said and so say "Amen" but the unskilled would not be able to understand unless the speech was interpreted. It would seem strange that the group that does understand would be silent the whole time while the group that does understand (once an interpretation is given) would vocally say "Amen." Isn't it more natural to understand the passage as assuming an "Amen" will be given, but that the unskilled cannot join in that "Amen" unless there is an interpretation? Unless you view the "Amen" as non-vocal in this passage?

Also, what about the OT precedent for a vocal Amen? There are a handful of passages where an "Amen" is given after prayer or some other activity.

Finally, in light of that there is historical precedent for a vocal, congregational "Amen" (after prayer and after the blessing), could you point to any historical precedent for the view that the "Amen" is not vocal?



MW said:


> if the "Amen" were vocal, one would have to provide liberty for a vocal dissent, which would lead to all sorts of disorder.


Couldn't the "vocal" dissent just be silence? That is, not joining in vocally like is ordinarily expected is considered dissent?


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## MW (Jul 10, 2015)

Afterthought said:


> Unless you view the "Amen" as non-vocal in this passage?



In 1 Cor. 14 the Amen is individual, not congregational. The unlearned are classed with unbelievers as witnesses of the prophetic activity, and the prophetic activity was serving a specific function in the history of redemption. It thus affords no precedent for a congregational Amen, then or now.



Afterthought said:


> Also, what about the OT precedent for a vocal Amen? There are a handful of passages where an "Amen" is given after prayer or some other activity.



This kind of "reaching" with proof-texts is the sure way to make a mockery of the regulative principle. Exegete the passages and apply them with care, and I think it will be seen there are no passages to support the practice.



Afterthought said:


> Couldn't the "vocal" dissent just be silence?



Vocal silence. Square circles. It is amazing what men are able to imagine, but such things do not exist in the real world.


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## Grant Van Leuven (Jul 14, 2015)

KMK said:


> Being a TR guy, I stick with the WSC:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I appreciate this answer (and the question of the post as its impetus), because I just came to the conviction to invite the congregation to join me in "Amen" at the end of corporate prayers when I finished a Westminster Larger Catechism series last Lord's Day evening, Q&A 196, What doth the conclusion of the Lord's prayer teach us? Same OT Scriptures given as are on this post, but perhaps what was humbly developed there may be of interest to some (at the end of the message): "Pray with Hope and Happiness." 

It might be relevant also to share that I preached on Leviticus 10 that morning in which I emphasized the negative aspect of the Regulative Principle of Worship as it is so soberly spoken and illustrated there (after emphasizing the positive aspect of the RPW the week before in chapter 9), so, whether or not all would agree I was being logically consistent, the RPW was fresh on my mind and being considered while coming to such a conclusion for the evening message which in part encouraged a corporately audible conclusion of "Amen".


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## crixus (Jul 17, 2015)

Jake said:


> crixus said:
> 
> 
> > I always say..._in Jesus name. Amen._
> ...



Yes we all do it along with the Pastor, after the opening prayer.


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## Afterthought (Jul 21, 2015)

MW said:


> Vocal silence. Square circles. It is amazing what men are able to imagine, but such things do not exist in the real world.


I meant to take a look at the passages and return here, but I have not gotten to it yet. So that may have to wait for another day or thread. To clarify this though, the "vocal" was not meant literally. For marriages, people are asked to speak or hold their peace. Silence in this case stands for one's voice of approval. Likewise, the idea is that if in prayer, vocalization is the expected norm, then silence stands for one's voice of disapproval. However, as I've thought about the matter, I've been wondering whether silence standing for disapproval is not equal with silence standing for approval; if one disapproves and is silent, then nothing can be done about the matter, but if one gives a silent approval, well, one already agrees so there is nothing one desires to change about the situation? And what if a prayer was mixed? Does one's vocal "amen" mean all of the prayer is approved or only portions? A silent "amen" would admittedly deal with this case.


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