# How much to be considered "Reformed"?



## WaywardNowHome (Mar 18, 2009)

_(Please forgive me if this thread is in the wrong place. I'm still learning my way around here!)_

Ever since 2 years ago, when God in His grace opened my eyes to the doctrines of grace, I've been listening to a lot of sermons by men who are associated with the Reformed movement, including Johns Macarthur and Piper and James White and Paul Washer. I find myself standing firmly on the 5 points of Calvinism and I don't see how the God of Scripture can be seen in any other way. That's about as far as I thought Reformed theology went.

Since joining PB, I've been reading a lot about different issues, including the regulative principle of worship, various eschatological matters and material related to various Confessions. My question is, how much does one need to agree with in order to be considered "Reformed"?


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## QueenEsther (Mar 18, 2009)

Depends on who you ask.


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## ww (Mar 18, 2009)

Welcome Joel from the Home of Tenth Presbyterian PCA! Being a 5 Point Calvinist is where many of us started in our Reformed Journey however Calvin taught more than just the 5 points in his Institutes and other writings. He taught a Covenantal view of our relationship with God which Presbyterians such as myself believe includes Paedobaptism (Infant Baptism). He taught that how we worship God is important and that God has given us the way He desires to be worshipped in His Word. He also taught that we are to live out our Faith in the public sphere and influence the Culture for Christ. In other words the fleshing out of our Faith in our families, our vocations, and in the Church flows from a Heart which has been redeemed by God through His effectual calling and Grace. 

There will be others who will provide a more detailed explanation as well as provide the Baptist perspective of Reformed Theology however I hope I have given you a brief and basic overview of what is means to be "Reformed". Check out the Links on the side "Why Reformed Thelogy" and also the Reformed Confessions to learn more about us.


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## A.J. (Mar 18, 2009)

Joel, Rose is right in saying that it depends on whom you ask. Some people would say that to be Reformed, one must hold to the Three Forms of Unity or the Westminster Standards. Therefore, a Reformed person must believe in infant baptism as well. Others would say that you can be Reformed and Baptist (denying infant baptism) at the same time. Hence the term Reformed Baptist. Reformed Baptists hold to the 1689 London Confession of Faith. James White is a Reformed Baptist elder. 

You will find people who hold either of these views in this discussion forum.

P.S. There is also a Reformed view of the Lord's Supper (explained in the Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgic Confession) which many Reformed Baptists (not all) will not accept. So the main disagreements are really on the doctrines of the church and the sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper).


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## ReformedChapin (Mar 18, 2009)

It does depend who you ask. I have been studying reformed theology for 3 years now and I have visited various churches. I hope that I am not misrepresenting anyone here but All the URC, PCA and OPC ministers I have talked to pretty much say that our baptist friends here are not reformed. The only real reformed people are those who hold to reformed confessions which is usually 3 forms of unity or the westminster standards.

I know a lot baptist who strongly disagree with this assessment so take it for what it is. I don't really want to take a position myself.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 18, 2009)

"Reformed" denotes that wing of the Protestant church hailing from the Reformation and generally falling within the tradition known as Calvinistic or Presbyterian. In popular parlance, those within conservative Reformed circles differentiate themselves from each other by noting those who are Truly Reformed (TR) and those who are Barely Reformed (BR). 

To the outsider or casual observer, this may sound arcane and a little nit picky. However, if you can just consider the way canines fulfill the same goal by sniffing each others' hind quarters, you will gain a new appreciation for the rather refined process used in Reformed communions. 

Those of us in the Baptist wing of the church rely upon a more primitive system of employing our shibboleth testing: 

1. How much water was used in your baptism?
2. How do you pronounce "b-a-p-t-i-s-t"? [hint: extra credit awarded for knowing how to say "babtist" without coaching]

[My old prof Geoffrey Bromiley used to say that the problem with Baptists is that they "hire" their pastors and therefore end up with hirelings for pastors.]


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## UKPuritan40 (Mar 18, 2009)

Welcome Joel, 
It does indeed depend on who you ask and some folk you ask may sound as if there is a club for the "TR's" (Truly reformed) which might involve secret handshakes and possibly whisky and cigars, but don't believe those folk. In my youth I occasionally heard folk say "Reformed" and then substitute the word "Biblical" implying the words are synonymous which is a quick way to annoy and possibly eliminate all your "non-reformed" friends.

I would like to say that after 36 years in reformed circles of various stripes, that I have come to the conclusion that not unlike sanctification, being reformed seems to involve an ongoing process wherein one is seeking with God's aid, to be more and more faithful to the truth of scripture. (Semper Reformanda)

I like the phrase "in the reformed tradition" because it isn't a matter of "just Calvin" or "just Luther" as well, there is a pretty good difference between the traditions of the Continental and the Scottish Reformation. For myself I favor the Scottish but does that make me more "reformed" than the Dutch or German? (-:

It seems that what happens too is that we are "introduced" to reformed thinking and we start with certain authors or teachers and as we have learned what we can from them, we move on and become more "hardcore reformed"...you'll know you get there when you keep Oliver Cromwell on a different bookshelf from the Covenanters, just out of respect. Until then, enjoy the wonderful joy and liberty that comes from knowing that the God who loved Jacob and hated Esau has in mercy chosen you!

Being "reformed" also involves more than simply a theological understanding of the head. One becomes reformed in life and practice. I have known folk who are not members of "reformed" conregations who respond in a more "reformed" manner to hard providences in their lives (Ala The Lord Giveth and the Lord taketh Blessed be the name of the Lord) than some who are full fledged secret handshake members of the "reformed church"(but by all means find a reformed church)..so as I've gotten older I would say that one's relationship to providence is a pretty good indicator of how "truly reformed" you or I are. 

On a side note, I'd say one of the most important goals for those more newly reformed, is to remember that Calvin taught that there is no such thing as a "proud calvinist" (I don't detect ANY such in you, just noting it is a risk for "the reformed)...some of us can remember our "cage stage" years and blush to think of those our enthusiasm might have offended. I certainly pray and trust that as a reformed individual God continues to "reform" my heart and practice alone with my theology. I'd say it takes far less time to have the intellect reformed than the life and person. 

When we are new to the wonders of reformed teachings, we can spend so much time talking about the particulars that we choke on them...don't forget your soul...we aren't the frozen chosen...ask like the Scottish Hebrideans of yesterday "Do you love Him more today than yesterday" and pray for God to give you a warm spirit as well as a firey theology!
Every Blessing to you on your reforming! I'd do the handshake but I have only the right hand of fellowship to offer any...
Susan Nye Ferrell
Member Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Boise (OPC)


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## KMK (Mar 18, 2009)

See this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/who-defines-reformed-32093/


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## Grymir (Mar 18, 2009)

In my nook of the woods, anybody who caries a KJV and thinks Barth's theology is seriously flawed.


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## CatechumenPatrick (Mar 18, 2009)

KMK said:


> See this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/who-defines-reformed-32093/



And more specifically: Richard Muller "How Many Points?"


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## Scott1 (Mar 18, 2009)

Generally, at a minimum one needs:



> The doctrines of grace ("five points of Calvinism") + covenant theology + a confession of faith.



Many of us would like to include a few others:

"spiritual view of the sacraments" + "church discipline." Charitably, infant baptism is for most, but not all, communions as it reflects our understanding of covenant community.


Understand the alternative:

"Arminian influenced (imagines, e.g. 'three point' Calvinism) + dispensationalism + no confession of faith as basis of unity or for accountability.

Also, "memorial" only view of the sacraments + "low view" of visible church (e.g. independent individuals loosely bound together by consent only; also view churches are all or mostly will be apostate, in the independent judgment of the individual).

There's also an aspect of reformed theology that all of Scripture affects all of life, and that it is transformational of individuals, families, and cultures (versus a notion in "broad evangelicalism" of a function more of gospel only (not discipleship for all of life) and separation from the world. Dispensationalism adds a certain pessimism towards the end effects, eschatologically and otherwise.

As you are aware, reformed theology was the majority historically and is making some come back now, but the alternative is the popular majority in this generation.

I recommend:

"What is Reformed Theology"? by Dr. RC Sproul


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## WaywardNowHome (Mar 18, 2009)

Thank you all very much! All of your responses have been helpful in shining some light on the topic of what "Reformed" really means. I guess this is the part where I dive in and spend more time in Scripture as well as read up on some Reformation history.


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 18, 2009)




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