# Christian approach to sex education.



## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

What should it be in this day and age? Abstainence until marriage. Or Abstainance until marriage, but in case you slip up safe sex.


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## SolaScriptura (Oct 11, 2005)

My guess is that most the folks here will say that if you go with the latter option then you've somehow yielded the principle and have somehow enabled or empowered or legitimatized premarital sex in the mind of your child.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

Depends on how it is taught. Most people who teach abstainence, but safe sex if you slip up, do so in a way that clearly says "No one waits, so here's a condom".


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 11, 2005)

As I told my pediatrician, my son will learn to keep his pants on or get what he deserves. I know that sounds cold...but really, there is no such thing as "safe sex" other than abstinence.


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## Average Joey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> What should it be in this day and age? Abstainence until marriage. Or Abstainance until marriage, but in case you slip up safe sex.



Give examples why not to have sex before marriage.Not just diseases and pregnancy.Stress it`s importance in marriage.Explain the regrets one will have for not staying pure before marriage.Explain how a person is more likely to commit adultery after marriage because of past experiences with other partners.


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## Average Joey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Depends on how it is taught. Most people who teach abstainence, but safe sex if you slip up, do so in a way that clearly says "No one waits, so here's a condom".



I like your new avatar Adam.Congratulations on your daughter`s marriage.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> As I told my pediatrician, my son will learn to keep his pants on or get what he deserves. I know that sounds cold...but really, there is no such thing as "safe sex" other than abstinence.



Not disagreeing with you one bit, and I do admire your bluntness on this subject. But I have to ask, since we are all fallible and sinful creatures, that do fall into sin every now and again, shouldn't we as Christians in the least teach sex education in mind that there will at times where our children will fall, hence we should cater for this fall, not that it would make their sin right, but at least mitigate the short term effects.

On one hand, we have to teach clearly, that Adulterers, Fornicators etc will not inherit the kingdom of God, but with the temptation is there a way where we could say, but if you slip being human, eventhough you will still be liable for punishment, at least practice it safe.

Let me use another example in the case of Divorce. God hates Divorce and in the beginning it was not so, but for the hardness of the hearts of man, He permitted it. This in no way makes divorce every right, nor does it do away with the consequences, but space is given.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



Thanks Joe. I always see those pictures of dad's holding their baby and they are pretty cool. SInce we adopted Alisha, I'll never have one of those, I figured this was as close as I may get!


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



Excellent points!


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 11, 2005)

I do not believe in teaching a child how to be a "safer fornicator". "well, honey, if you want to steal from the store, here's how you do it without getting caught"/"if you do fornicate, here's how to be safe about it" Sorry, but not happening.

Yes, we are all fallen creatures, but it is not too much to ask that one wait till they are married. We all pay the consequences for our actions. Make the consequences known. Add in any form of "possible" loophole (not that they neccessarily work) and you've set a greater stumbling block before your child.


Other than that, they WILL learn most of these things through discussions with you. I had open and frank discussions with my parents. My step-father was very open about the topic and my mother learned to be when she realized that my brother and myself knew terms that she was clueless on (you should have seen her blush when dad whispered the definition in her ear!). So please understand that I am not advocating ignorance. I was not ignorant...but I knew the consequences and knew no one would feel a bit of sympathy for me if I made wrong choices...because I WAS informed. (it did help that I had been threatened with a shotgun if ever caught...not a threat I would ever make...just the threat of natural consequences)


[Edited on 10-11-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 11, 2005)

It is hard enough to stay sexually pure in this day and age having parents who would likely threaten to kill you if you did slip up ... if you had parents that made provisions for you to slip up, well you can just _forget_ having virgin children. Completely.

[Edited on 10-11-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree with Colleen and Keon! If that makes any sense. Your point about stealing is a good one too Colleen, but the culture doesn't teach kids to steal, not really, unless you want to talk about digital music.

It's tough raising kids. I don't believe in sheltering kids (my wife suffered badly from that) but I don't believe in giving up and giving in either. So like I said, I agree with both points.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 11, 2005)

I did edit my post.


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## Average Joey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I do not believe in teaching a child how to be a "safer fornicator". "well, honey, if you want to steal from the store, here's how you do it without getting caught"/"if you do fornicate, here's how to be safe about it" Sorry, but not happening.
> 
> Yes, we are all fallen creatures, but it is not too much to ask that one wait till they are married. We all pay the consequences for our actions. Make the consequences known. Add in any form of "possible" loophole (not that they neccessarily work) and you've set a greater stumbling block before your child.



Yes I agree 100 percent.If we give children any tiniest excuse to do something,they will do it.So,no,there is no such thing as teaching kids safe sex before marriage(in case they fall into sin) without the outcome being what you did not want.

Always stress the importance of sex only in marriage.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> 
> Yes, we are all fallen creatures, but it is not too much to ask that one wait till they are married. We all pay the consequences for our actions. Make the consequences known. Add in any form of "possible" loophole (not that they neccessarily work) and you've set a greater stumbling block before your child.


That's the thing, I believe that "safe sex" i.e fornicating and adultering oneself with a condom, can be considered a loophole. But I don't want my child if he slips up to catch Stds and be bogged down with a child from a pyschotic woman.

I pray every night, that he lives a pure life, and to be kept from evil (heck the kid is barely 2 yrs 11 months), but this stuff is really on my mind. He's a very handsome scamp, and all the kids usually flock around him wherever he is, and he is very sociable, so I know that he is in for some major temptation as he gets older.


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## Average Joey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



Well,most likely he`ll find out all that stuff when he gets older anyway,but you can always be there to counteract everything that he sees and hears every day.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> Well,most likely he`ll find out all that stuff when he gets older anyway,but you can always be there to counteract everything that he sees and hears every day.


that's the thing, his mother and I are separated, and let me put it this way, "our value system is not the same".
He can actually and will be cheered for having many women. Of course I pray, but sometimes your faith fails.

I remember one time I was taking him for a walk, and our neighbor has a 2 yr old daughter, and the girl was outside. she said, "I wove you", and he responded, "I wove you too". stupid Barney  But you get the drift.


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## Average Joey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> ...



Ooooh I see.I`m sorry to hear that about your wife and you.Do you have custody?That does make your position much much tougher.

That`s funny about the "I wove you" thing.

[Edited on 10-11-2005 by Average Joey]


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> 
> That`s funny about the "I wove you" thing.


Your turn is coming 

My wife has custody, I get visitation.


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## Richard King (Oct 11, 2005)

This is what I told my sons...
If the child will not take this issue to God then there are these
consequences that young men do not think of:

There are many young ladies who will have sex who have no intention of marriage.

So...if one risks getting them pregnant

the GIRL makes the call on abortion whether you believe in it or not, they have all the rights in this area.

or...the girl choses to have the child and abandon the father EXCEPT for a great portion of every paycheck he gets for the next 18 years.

or the child or mother or both die in childbirth

Or none of this happens, the couple sometimes gets married out of guilt or responsibility or a feeling of being trapped and the blessings of marriage are never fully known.

There really is no safe premarital sex.
HOWEVER it is important to me to point out that as long as people "having to get married" is a bigger taboo than abortion we are messed up.


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## tdowns (Oct 11, 2005)

*education*

I think one issue is the age kids get married nowadays. It's one thing to say, sex is a natural great thing that one day soon you'll enjoy with your wife. Knowing that the child will marry between 13-20, only having to maintain control for a short time once the body kicks in. Which was the case up until very recently in almost all cultures. Today when as the issue arises around 13-15 years of age, we say wait till marriage, but the world and the church says, "Go and experience life first, then settle down." People are getting married at 26-30 now. I think part of the education should be spent on encouraging earlier relationships, GUARDED CLOSELY BY PARENTS, so that the high school sweet heart can be the college bride and the two can become one flesh and enjoy all life together, not life after "experiencing" the world through college and early twenties. 
Some people can stay pure for years, but if you don't have the gift of celibacy, then asking kids to wait for 10-15 years after their body is saying go...not going to happen. I'm all for parent and church guided late teen early twenty marriages. 


By the way, Adam, I too like your new Avatar, there's the smile someone was asking for.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

Trevor, and you are RIGHT! My wife and I got married at 19.


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## raderag (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> What should it be in this day and age? Abstainence until marriage. Or Abstainance until marriage, but in case you slip up safe sex.



Well, if the we actually let the schools teach sex, I wonder if the students would be as bad at it as they are at math or reading?


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Trevor, and you are RIGHT! My wife and I got married at 19.


that's when you intimidated Rolly Rolex


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> I think one issue is the age kids get married nowadays. It's one thing to say, sex is a natural great thing that one day soon you'll enjoy with your wife. Knowing that the child will marry between 13-20, only having to maintain control for a short time once the body kicks in. Which was the case up until very recently in almost all cultures. Today when as the issue arises around 13-15 years of age, we say wait till marriage, but the world and the church says, "Go and experience life first, then settle down." People are getting married at 26-30 now. I think part of the education should be spent on encouraging earlier relationships, GUARDED CLOSELY BY PARENTS, so that the high school sweet heart can be the college bride and the two can become one flesh and enjoy all life together, not life after "experiencing" the world through college and early twenties.
> Some people can stay pure for years, but if you don't have the gift of celibacy, then asking kids to wait for 10-15 years after their body is saying go...not going to happen. I'm all for parent and church guided late teen early twenty marriages.
> 
> ...



Very good point. Calvin said that the marriageable age ("flower of her youth") for women was 12 - 20 years old (commentary on 1 Cor. 7).


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by raderag_
> 
> 
> Well, if the we actually let the schools teach sex, I wonder if the students would be as bad at it as they are at math or reading?


of course they'll be bad at it   The Asian students will excel


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



 That story sure left an impression. I can't imagine if you had been there!


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> As I told my pediatrician, my son will learn to keep his pants on or get what he deserves. I know that sounds cold...but really, there is no such thing as "safe sex" other than abstinence.


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## mistresninos (Nov 5, 2005)

I agree with the people who have basically said that to say "here, just in case" is giving you child a liscense to sin.

When I was 15 my mother told me "I don't believe in abortion but if you ever became pregnant and weren't married I might have to change my mind." That was about the stupidest thing anyone has ever said to me...and the most detrimental.

God never says "Look I want you to be holy as I am holy but since we know that's just not possible, here is a way to protect yourself from your stupidity." God commands us to be holy and when we disobey him we must repent and turn from our sin AND deal with the consequences of our sin. Whether that sin was going above the speed limit and thereby getting a speeding ticket or committing fornication and thereby getting a STD or an "unwanted" pregnancy.

For my own children it will basically be as Lady Flynt said. I also add "You are never too old to be disciplined."

I know this is difficult for you in your situation but you are still given the opportunity to train your son while he is with you. Talk to him and tell him about the Lord's commands. Teach him to respect you and he will listen to you. A boy needs his father to give him direction. Make sure you are giving him the right directions.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 5, 2005)

9th Circuit Court Ruling on Parents' Rights re: Sex Education


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 5, 2005)

I didn't even know about sex in the 1st and 3rd grades! That questionaire alone would have traumatized me. As it was, I experienced a traumatic exposure when coming back to the states in 4th grade and boys were pushing girls up against bell towers. The principal refused to do a thing about it. You would rarely see overseas what you see here in the US. (I had previously been in the Pacific amoung asians...they are pretty protective of their children)


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## bond-servant (Nov 5, 2005)

I think I was around 3rd grade when my friend and I found out the very basics. I remember her reply as being something like :

"oh NO...my parents would NEVER do that!!"

Needless to say those questions would have been damaging to our innocence and 'childhood'. 

Most children now don't have much of a "childhood" (innocent, playing,light-hearted) as it is.


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## BJClark (Nov 5, 2005)

There are some really good books out there for teens to read from a Christian perspective that go over God's design for relationships. Two of which are:

Boundaries in Dating--Townsend and Cloud

Dating Intimacy and Teenage Years--Karl Duff

The second one is really good for parents to read as well, it has like 3 or 4 questions that you can discuss with your child at the end of each chapter.

It's for both Boys and Girls, even explains to girls their need for protection by the fathers and why fathers need to hold boys accountable for how they 
treat their daughters while dating.

It covers the lies people believe about sex and relationships and why girls can't prove they love a boy by having sex with him (boys don't bond emotionally to girls by having sex with them; boys bond when they know the value of the girl, when they are willing to die (even to self) for their lady, and what it destroys for both of them if they do.

it covers God's design for men to be a shield; the protector, and the womans design as a breast; one who nurtures and comforts.

A shield is used in combat, protecting the family from lifes arrows,
The breast nurture from a mother to child and wife to husband.

It discusses how roles in relationships are reversed when sex is practiced outside the confines of marriage.

How it destroys the womans' ability to trust her husband
How it destroys a man's manhood, when his wife isn't secure and can't trust him to protect her. 

"If a boy can't deny himself sex in order to protect you, He can't protect you"

If you have children I'd highly recommend this book!!

I gave a copy of it to our Youth Minister recently, he's going to see about using it as one of the studies for the teens.


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## LawrenceU (Nov 5, 2005)

I'm late in this, but here is my stance:

Sexual education, in a Christian home, is soley the job of the parents. Period. Each child is different and situations in the home will affect timing. Shoot, I knew the basics from ever since I can remember. Raising livestock will do that.

Also, NEVER deviate from the Standard, read Bible. Doing otherwise always leads to license.



> That's the thing, I believe that "safe sex" i.e fornicating and adultering oneself with a condom, can be considered a loophole. But I don't want my child if he slips up to catch Stds and be bogged down with a child from a pyschotic woman.



This sort of thinking is suspect. Slipping up is not purchasing prophilactics ahead of time for use later. That is planning.


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## StudentoftheWord (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Slippery_
> ...



 and !!!!


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## StudentoftheWord (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> ...



I'd get a better lawyer and *FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!* for my child, that he raised in a Godly home! Does she do drugs? I'd tell the judge that, if she does...

-Chuck


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## BrianBowman (Nov 6, 2005)

The Biblical "picture" for entering the Covenant of Marriage as virgins is amazingly simple. Under normal cirustances, a "seal" is broken and blood comes forth. What a picture this is of Christ's redemption and exclusive fidelity toward his Bride. Only the Scriptures give us the correct training on sexual purity and its place in God's plan. I cannot agree more that not only Sex Education, but also the creation of an home environment where sexual purity continually is reinforced, should be the exclusive purview of the Christian home. In fact, it is my sincere conviction that parents who are deficient in this will be judged by God.

It is the parent's responsiblity (under normal circumstances) to provide the Scriptural foundation for life necessary to prepare their children to properly contract, avow, and consumate the Holy Covenant of Marriage. This a very serious matter!

[Edited on 11-6-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## bond-servant (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BrianBowman_
> .
> 
> It is the parent's responsiblity (under normal circumstances) to provide the Scriptural foundation for life necessary to prepare their children to properly contract, avow, and consumate the Holy Covenant of Marriage. This a very serious matter!
> ...


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## BJClark (Nov 6, 2005)

LawrenceU




> Sexual education, in a Christian home, is soley the job of the parents. Period. Each child is different and situations in the home will affect timing. Shoot, I knew the basics from ever since I can remember. Raising livestock will do that.



I agree in part with this, I believe that YES it is the parents responsibility, I also believe it is the CHURCHES Responsibility to TEACH THE PARENTS and the Children Gods design for Sex in marriage.

I think Youth Leaders need to teach the boys they ARE accountable to the not only the girls father, but the Pastor, the Youth Leader and the congregation for how they treat the girls they date. 

I think they need to teach the girls if a boy is treating you disrespectfully it is your right and obligation to tell your parents, youth leader and your Pastor so that *they* can hold the boy accountable. (matthew 18) 

Unfortunately though most mothers and girls have a problem with this, because they don't want to see their sons or boyfriends suffer what they deem as painful consequences, because they are nurtures by nature.

Parents and church leaders need to teach Boundaries not just in dating but for relationships in general. 

People in general need to learn it's *okay* to hurt someone's feelings if it's not done with malice. And that hurting their feelings is not going to make them suffer in agony, and that by hurting their feelings it serves two purposes: Brings about growth in their walk with Christ, and allows them to learn to work within the feelings God created them to feel instead of walking around acting as if they should never show emotion because feelings are somehow wrong.

Maybe Churches could use these books with both parents and teens have a class for fathers/sons and mothers/daughters so that they can all learn together what boundaries are and what they look like within relationships. And that it really is OKAY to say NO.

[Edited on 11-6-2005 by BJClark]


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## BrianBowman (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BJClark_
> LawrenceU
> 
> 
> ...



Yes ... this all very true. Some parents are ignorant or cavalier about these matters and how serious they are. How about doing away with the "dating model" within the Covenant community? Is it really necessary for teens to date? They are not yet quite ready for marriage (at least in most instances). Time alone for "dating couples" just increases pressure to give into a physical relationship - the least of such God considers fornication - which futher tempts young people to practice the thing that rhymes with exacerbate. Then all of this gets projected and magnifed into adulthood. Otherwise well-taught young people wind up in marriages where sex becomes a "battle ground" and we wonder why there is so much divorce - even in the Church? This is the reality of current age folks, as the lives of our young people go merrily along without truly understanding the terrible consequences of breaking God's covenantal order. The Law, Psalms, and Prophets are replete with warnings about this - as are the Gospels and Epistles. We must stop sacrificing our young people to today's "furnace of Molech" - the lustful, wordly cutlure that is destroying their foundation for sexual purity in marriage.

[Edited on 11-6-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 6, 2005)

to LawrenceU!!


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## LawrenceU (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BJClark_
> LawrenceU
> 
> 
> ...



So far so good.



> . . . and the Children Gods design for Sex in marriage. I think Youth Leaders need to teach the boys they ARE accountable to the not only the girls father, but the Pastor, the Youth Leader and the congregation for how they treat the girls they date.



Now, I have to disagree. Show me one 'youth leader' in Scripture. Duet. chapter six is aimed at fathers; not church staff experts. This is common malady in the church today. We have gutted the parents' role in discipling their own.



> I think they need to teach the girls if a boy is treating you disrespectfully it is your right and obligation to tell your parents, youth leader and your Pastor so that *they* can hold the boy accountable. (matthew 18)
> 
> Unfortunately though most mothers and girls have a problem with this, because they don't want to see their sons or boyfriends suffer what they deem as painful consequences, because they are nurtures by nature.
> 
> ...


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## BJClark (Nov 6, 2005)

> Now, I have to disagree. Show me one 'youth leader' in Scripture. Duet. chapter six is aimed at fathers; not church staff experts. This is common malady in the church today. We have gutted the parents' role in discipling their own.



I can't speak for other churches but one of our Youth Leaders is also a Pastor, and I didn't say Parents shouldn't also be a part of teaching their children about sex.

But even beyond that, IF the Preacher or Youth Leader is teaching the Bible, God's design for Marriage and SEX IN Marriage SHOULD be part of that teaching. 

As the Youth Leader (whether mentioned or not) they are still a member of congregation, and as a member of the congregation they still are to hold other members accountable in their walk, be it a youth or an adult.

So yeah, I think they need to teach them how accountablity works.


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## Readhead (Nov 16, 2005)

I think someone should write a book for parents about all this from a Christian reformed perspective and email me - I'll pass you on to the right people.
I'm cutting this post short as there is a mouse under my desk and it's VERY noisy!
Readhead


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