# What Governments are in Mind in Romans 13?



## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

Greg Price listed at least 10 things that disqualify nations from being counted as ministers of God to be submitted to and taxes to be paid:

Biblical Civil Government Versus the Beast; and, the Basis of Civil Resistance by Greg Price

a. Legal protection of idolatry and false worship within a nation that has been enlightened by the gospel, together with a refusal to establish the true reformed religion as the only established religion within that nation.

b. Refusal to affirm in constitutional documents that God's moral law is the supreme law of the land (within a nation enlightened by the gospel), but to the contrary, the legal declaration of an immoral constitution to be the supreme law of the land.

c. Refusal to nationally acknowledge Jesus Christ as the supreme Ruler of the nation whom all civil magistrates are obligated to "kiss" (i.e. to publicly honor) in their official functions (Ps. 2:12).

d. Legal protection of public blasphemy against the name of the Lord in all forms of media.

e. Refusal to prohibit all unnecessary work on the Lord's Day.

f. Tyranny exercised over families in prohibiting corporal discipline and home education without government certification.

g. Legal endorsement of the slaughter and murder of unborn children.

h. Legal protection of gross immorality, sexual perversion and heinous p0rnography.

i. Habitual theft through unjust and excessive taxes and through inflated paper currency.

j. Habitual covenant breaking. (and he added a long list of requirements to this) 

IF Greg Price is correct, no nation on the face of the earth could require our submission as in Romans 13.


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## Romans922 (Jan 23, 2014)

David, I believe you need to add a signature.


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## stephen2 (Jan 23, 2014)

Whatever you may think of Greg Price and his movement or of this particular list, I think it is important to recognize that Paul gives two key reasons why we must submit to our leaders. First, they are ordained of God. Second, they are ministers for good. Good in the Bible means nothing apart from the 10 commandments; and any other time we speak of an office ordained by God we think qualifications... we don't assume anyone who holds the office is to be submitted to (see for example pastors and elders). Rather we assume that those only who meet the Biblical qualifications belong in that office and are therefore on that basis deserving of our submission. 

How we apply this (ie. paying taxes, etc.) is up for debate but it seems to me rather obvious that Paul wasn't referring to leaders (president or prime minister, for example) like the ones we have for whatever we may call them they are certainly not ministers for good. 

I would recommend William Symington's _Messiah the Prince_.


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## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

stephen2 said:


> Rather we assume that those only who meet the Biblical qualifications belong in that office and are therefore on that basis deserving of our submission.
> 
> I would recommend William Symington's _Messiah the Prince_.



But what nations do you think have qualified under Romans 13?


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## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

All rulers are to be submitted to. And all rulers do rule for the good of His people. Even tyrants are sent by God for the good of the church.


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## Mushroom (Jan 23, 2014)

Oooh, this needs to be moved before I start getting into trouble... Please take it where I can't go!


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## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

Could you provide a link to the user control panel? I can't seem to find it.


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## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

Where does this belong?


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## Mushroom (Jan 23, 2014)

One of the mods will move it to politics and gov't, especially if you ask, and even more especially if I start to comment, so out of respect I am refraining. 

Cheers, brother!


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 23, 2014)

Paul's immediate reference was to Rome. Therefore, I don't believe Rom 13 can be construed in such a way as to suggest we must only submit to a "godly" government.


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## KMK (Jan 23, 2014)

SolaScriptura said:


> Paul's immediate reference was to Rome. Therefore, I don't believe Rom 13 can be construed in such a way as to suggest we must only submit to a "godly" government.



Although that sure would make life easier!




David Shedlock said:


> Could you provide a link to the user control panel? I can't seem to find it.



Click on 'Signature Requirements' under my own signature.


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## David Shedlock (Jan 23, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> Could you provide a link to the user control panel? I can't seem to find it.



Click on 'Signature Requirements' under my own signature.[/QUOTE]

There is no box or link on that page to change your signature.


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## Peairtach (Jan 23, 2014)

Rome was clearly a beastly power, as are our godless civil governments, and as was Babylon. The Lord will bring such beastly goverrnment to an end in His own time, by the outpouring of His Spirit, the growth of His Church, the spreading of His Word, and His Providence.

*E.g.*


> The letter was sent by the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent to Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. It said: “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. (Jer. 29:3-7)



Beastly government has also received a non-lethal blow which is a manifest token of its ultimate demise:


> One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marvelled as they followed the beast. (Rev 13:3)



Possibly the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity.


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## MW (Jan 23, 2014)

> a. Legal protection of idolatry and false worship within a nation that has been enlightened by the gospel, together with a refusal to establish the true reformed religion as the only established religion within that nation.



WCF 23.4, "Infidelity, or difference in religion, doth not make void the magistrate’s just and legal authority, nor free the people from their obedience to him: from which ecclesiastical persons are not exempted."



> b. Refusal to affirm in constitutional documents that God's moral law is the supreme law of the land (within a nation enlightened by the gospel), but to the contrary, the legal declaration of an immoral constitution to be the supreme law of the land.



WCF 23.2, "in the managing whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each commonwealth..."



> c. Refusal to nationally acknowledge Jesus Christ as the supreme Ruler of the nation whom all civil magistrates are obligated to "kiss" (i.e. to publicly honor) in their official functions (Ps. 2:12).



WCF 23.1, "*God, the Supreme Lord and King of all the world*, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him over the people." WCF 30.1, "*The Lord Jesus, as king and head of his Church,* hath therein appointed a government in the hand of Church officers, distinct from the civil magistrate."


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## Tyrese (Jan 24, 2014)

1 Peter 2:13-17 also deals with this issue. Vs 13 says, "Therefore submit yourselves to EVERY ordinance of man..."

I think what's happening here is that many people are so upset with our current government here in America, that they're looking for any reason to disregard these passages. I agree that some of the things the liberals stand for is wrong, but I also think some of the things the republicans stand for is also unjust. Thank God our hope is in Christ who is "the ruler of the kings of the earth", and not a political party here in America. Perhaps we keep getting wicked men in office to teach us to trust in God, and not a polital agenda.


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## stephen2 (Jan 24, 2014)

Is there any chance that this discussion can be moved so that Brad would feel free to participate? 

Symington writes


> Indeed, it would be difficult to conceive a more cutting sarcasm on Nero and his associates in power, than is here furnished. None but the most blinded devotee to the exploded doctrine of passive obedience and non-resistance would ever think of interpreting this passage of the then existing government. Nor is it easy to conceive a greater insult that could be offered to the Holy One of Israel, by whom kings reign, than to represent such a monster as Nero as "the minister of God for good," or his government as "the ordinance of God" which could not be resisted on pain of damnation.


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## Mushroom (Jan 24, 2014)

stephen2 said:


> Is there any chance that this discussion can be moved so that Brad would feel free to participate?
> 
> Symington writes
> 
> ...


Brad is not free to participate in discussions such as this, but I appreciate your sentiment, brother.

I'd just get into trouble and offend brothers I love anyway, so its probably best.


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