# HEY! You're tearing apart my roof!!



## blhowes (Jun 8, 2011)

I have to admit, sometimes when I read stories in the Bible, my imagination gets the better of me, and I wonder things that are really unimportant, but still I wonder nonetheless. This happened to me this morning when I was reading this familiar story:

Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 
Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 

My mind fast forwards to the end of the day when the house has cleared, everybody's gone back to their own homes, and the owner is by himself (or with his family), looking up at the roof with a big hole in it. Anybody know any details about how the roofs were constructed back then? If this'd happened in our day and time, we're talking major repairs. I wonder if anybody offered to help repair the roof (doesn't say, can only wonder).

Another question:
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 

The scribes rightly reasoned that only God can forgive sins. Someone might say by Jesus' answer that Jesus wasn't saying that He was God, but that God had given him permission to forgive sins. How would you show from these verses that Jesus was indeed saying that He was God and therefore had authority to forgive sins (does that make sense?)?


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 8, 2011)

I would point to the fact that it says that only God can forgive sins. It does not that only those whom God allows can forgive sins.


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## athanatos (Jun 8, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I would point to the fact that it says that only God can forgive sins. It does not that only those whom God allows can forgive sins.



I've had this question a while. I am having a hard time finding the other passage in mind, but here is a passage I don't know how to interpret:

John 20:22-23
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


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## Calvin87 (Jun 8, 2011)

athanatos said:


> I've had this question a while. I am having a hard time finding the other passage in mind, but here is a passage I don't know how to interpret:
> 
> John 20:22-23
> And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”




While Christ enjoins the Apostles to forgive sins, he does not convey to them what is peculiar to himself. It belongs to Him to forgive sins. This honour, so far as it belongs peculiarly to Himself, he does not surrender to the Apostles, but enjoins them, in his name, to proclaim the forgiveness of sins, that through their agency he may reconcile men to God. In short, properly speaking, it is he alone who forgives sins through his apostles and ministers.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

I meant to credit that to Calvin***. It's from his commentary on John.


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## athanatos (Jun 10, 2011)

Okay, fair enough. (for the record, I am not an Arian) My question is then, why can't someone say --by the same reasoning-- that Christ is in the same position that we see the apostles? Why can't we say that God forgives sins, and in God's name Jesus (a mere man) proclaimed the forgiveness of sins? It could then be read:

"While God enjoins Jesus to forgive sins, He does not convey to him what is peculiar to Himself. It belongs to Him to forgive sins. This honour, so far as it belongs peculiarly to Himself, He does not surrender to Jesus, but enjoins him, in His name, to proclaim the forgiveness of sins, that through his agency He may reconcile men to God. In short, properly speaking, it is He alone who forgives sins through his faithful prophet."


I don't believe that the Father and Son relate this way, I am just speaking hypothetically.


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## py3ak (Jun 10, 2011)

blhowes said:


> My mind fast forwards to the end of the day when the house has cleared, everybody's gone back to their own homes, and the owner is by himself (or with his family), looking up at the roof with a big hole in it. Anybody know any details about how the roofs were constructed back then? If this'd happened in our day and time, we're talking major repairs. I wonder if anybody offered to help repair the roof (doesn't say, can only wonder).



If I remember correctly the reading I did on this some years ago, I believe the balance of probability is that they either dug through a mud roof or that they uncovered an area that was thatched or covered with lathes. So not quite the same kind of difficult repair that making a hole in a roof would imply for us. On this, as on all points connected with the narrative of the Gospels, Alfred Edersheim will deal with it intelligently and very learnedly in his _Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah_.


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## blhowes (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks, Ruben.


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