# How Sovereign is God? really



## shelly (May 22, 2007)

I have some questions about the sovereignty of God. I don't like these questions but they are still there. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If there is another thread that covers these questions I just didn't see it.

Does God plan everything or does he allow some things? Is there an aspect of the sovereignty of God that is foreknowledge but not his actual plan?

Did God plan for Adam and Eve to sin in the garden or just know about it?

If he didn't plan it; was it just something he knew about ahead of time and so made a plan for our redemption?

It seems to come down to the question, ''How sovereign is God?"
I've been having trouble with this for the last several months.

shelly


----------



## staythecourse (May 22, 2007)

*Just one point on futililty*

Regarding did God know or plan the fall, he planned it.



> Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God


----------



## BobVigneault (May 22, 2007)

Shelley,
don't feel guilty or alone in asking those questions. Those are great questions- those are the BIG questions that have puzzled man for thousands of years. Obviously there are no simple answers or answers that will solve every level of mystery in God.

Believe it or not, the question is not really answered by addressing God's sovereignty. That answer is simple - God is sovereign over all things. There is no place in the universe where he is not owner and Lord.

Here are the questions that will help you get to the root of the puzzle:

1. How can God reveal the full spectrum of his attributes, his power and his perfections (His Glory) to mankind and the angels?

2. How far will God go to redeem his covenant people, his sheep?

3. How can God transform ruined sinners into the image of his Son?

4. Is God just?

5. How destructive and ugly is sin and how can it's nature be revealed?

These are some questions to ponder and meditate on. Consider how they relate to God's sovereignty. If you need some more help, just ask. The problem with questions like this is not that the answers are not there but that the answers need to rest on a solid foundation. Understanding God's nature and purpose(s) will go a long way in answering your question. Unfortunately most churches today do not lay down a good doctrinal foundation to support the answers to the big questions. People want sound bite answers. There are no sound bite answers to theological questions.


----------



## Greg (May 22, 2007)

Hi Shelley,

Also if I could recommend a little reading for you, check out The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. Be sure to get the edition published by Baker Books.


----------



## panta dokimazete (May 22, 2007)

Or even better, read it online for free!


----------



## Jimmy the Greek (May 22, 2007)

The Westminster Confession may be helpful by way of explanation:

III.1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably *ordain whatsoever comes to pass*; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

III.2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

. . . and so on.


----------



## IanWatson (May 22, 2007)

Greg said:


> Hi Shelley,
> 
> Also if I could recommend a little reading for you, check out The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. Be sure to get the edition published by Baker Books.



 This is a very good book. I definitely recommend.


----------



## KMK (May 22, 2007)

IanWatson said:


> This is a very good book. I definitely recommend.



 I will jump on the bandwagon as well. It changed my life. Pastor Moorcraft admited in a sermon once that it did the same for him.

In fact it might be time to reread it...


----------



## JM (May 22, 2007)

Try this.



> In this examination I will make brief comments concerning the following passages:
> 
> Isaiah 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, {10} Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: {11} Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
> 
> ...



Peace,

j


----------



## Me Died Blue (May 22, 2007)

Here is an earlier thread I started entitled, "Scriptures Supporting God's Full Providence and Sovereign Ordination of All Events," which is simply a list containing just that.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (May 22, 2007)

Shelly,
Pastorally, I think one of the greatest perplexitites faced by God's people comes when they see (and experience) the tragedies of life--"Where," they often ask, "was God, or is God, in this event, or in _my_ suffering?"

This is made more difficult, very often, by the fact that the Sovereign God does not loom large over all their previous experience. Thus, when the events come, God is NOT thought of immediately as being "there". The Bible's God, however, is always "there", and is not disinterested, distracted, or a mere observer. Instead, he is the Ruler.

Consider what it would mean if God was NOT sovereign, down to the details, even in pain. That means that either: 1) God simply "lets bad things happen," and himself "finds" purpose and meaning in them through working around them; or 2) God "can't keep bad things from happening," and there is absolutely no purpose and meaning that such events have. In neither case does God's intent--which is to work ALL THINGS for the GOOD of those who love him, to his elect--play a part in that pain.

When we consider the pain that Joseph went through (see Gen. 39), and his father, we are appalled at the sheer awfulness of the crimes against persons, against God, and against grace. But in Gen. 50:19-20, Joseph teaches his brothers an profound lesson in faith:


> "Am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."


Do not miss what Joseph says there about God's *intent*. Salvation came about for God's people, and for the entire world, because God put Joseph through a metaphorical hell. Joseph didn't simply have to say, "God I trust that you will fix this," but rather, "God, I know you have a REASON for this, and that keeps me going and trusting in you."

As a pastor, I could not be effective ministering to people in pain if all I could tell them was, "God will feel his way through this with you to a happy conclusion; he could have prevented this, but he just felt it would be better for you to muddle through." No, for one thing I don't find that God in the Bible. And thankfully, too. Instead, it is a God of interested and willful sovereignty, who is choosing the things of both pain and pleasure that will bring him the most glory and his particular man or woman the most good, as they fit into his grand scheme. When we say otherwise, we are claiming to be wiser than he is. Our task is to believe, as Job learned to believe that God knows what he's doing. Because he's God.

Blessings, sister.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 22, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> Here is an earlier thread I started entitled, "Scriptures Supporting God's Full Providence and Sovereign Ordination of All Events," which is simply a list containing just that.



Chris' list is a great resource. There is one verse that has often made me ponder and it is cited by the Westminster Assembly in support of their proposition that



> 2. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly,a yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.b
> 
> a. Acts 2:23. • b. Gen 8:22; Exod 21:13 with Deut 19:5; 1 Kings 22:28, 34; Isa 10:6-7; Jer 31:35.



It is 1 Kings 22.34 (see also 2 Chron. 18.33).



> 28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.
> ...
> 34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.



What seemed to be a random event on a battlefield was in fact part of God's plan, eternally known (Acts 15.18), prophesied and effected by second causes, and therefore nothing done in creation could have thwarted God's eternal decree. 

The hairs on our heads are numbered and even the sparrows do not fall to the ground apart from the will of the Father (Matt. 10.29-30). There is nothing that is outside of his sovereign control. He truly governs the world and by him all things consist (Col. 1.17). By his works of creation and providence he brings all things into existence and sovereignly brings everything to pass according to the counsel of his will. He is not a puppet-master, but he is the potter and we are the clay (Rom. 9). 

What are we that he is mindful of us (Psalm 8)? What a humbling truth to know that God is God and he rules all that is. Read the end of Job and let us all confess that God is the Lord, we cannot add to his glory, but we can and should praise him who governs all things from the greatest to the least, whether we are going through hard providences or whether the "lines have fallen unto [us] in pleasant places" (Ps. 16.6).


----------



## caddy (May 22, 2007)

^
I always find myself saying "Amen" after Pastor Bruce's comments.

Once again: "Amen"


----------



## shelly (May 22, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Shelly,
> Pastorally, I think one of the greatest perplexitites faced by God's people comes when they see (and experience) the tragedies of life--"Where," they often ask, "was God, or is God, in this event, or in _my_ suffering?"


exactly my thought




Contra_Mundum said:


> This is made more difficult, very often, by the fact that the Sovereign God does not loom large over all their previous experience. Thus, when the events come, God is NOT thought of immediately as being "there". The Bible's God, however, is always "there", and is not disinterested, distracted, or a mere observer. Instead, he is the Ruler.


yet it seems to be the One who did nothing.




Contra_Mundum said:


> Consider what it would mean if God was NOT sovereign, down to the details, even in pain. That means that either: 1) God simply "lets bad things happen," and himself "finds" purpose and meaning in them through working around them; or 2) God "can't keep bad things from happening," and there is absolutely no purpose and meaning that such events have. In neither case does God's intent--which is to work ALL THINGS for the GOOD of those who love him, to his elect--play a part in that pain.


This is what I am considering. I take things all the way out either direction; and on one end I find a God that is either powerless or uncaring, but on the other end I find a God that plans evil. I don't know where or who God is on that line. ? "those who love him", does that mean the elect? What if you didn't love God at the time of pain, does this verse still apply even though you weren't yet a believer?




Contra_Mundum said:


> When we consider the pain that Joseph went through (see Gen. 39), and his father, we are appalled at the sheer awfulness of the crimes against persons, against God, and against grace. But in Gen. 50:19-20, Joseph teaches his brothers an profound lesson in faith: Do not miss what Joseph says there about God's *intent*. Salvation came about for God's people, and for the entire world, because God put Joseph through a metaphorical hell. Joseph didn't simply have to say, "God I trust that you will fix this," but rather, "God, I know you have a REASON for this, and that keeps me going and trusting in you.".


It's the trusting that's so hard and nearly impossible at times.




Contra_Mundum said:


> As a pastor, I could not be effective ministering to people in pain if all I could tell them was, "God will feel his way through this with you to a happy conclusion; he could have prevented this, but he just felt it would be better for you to muddle through." No, for one thing I don't find that God in the Bible. And thankfully, too. Instead, it is a God of interested and willful sovereignty, who is choosing the things of both pain and pleasure that will bring him the most glory and his particular man or woman the most good, as they fit into his grand scheme. When we say otherwise, we are claiming to be wiser than he is. Our task is to believe, as Job learned to believe that God knows what he's doing. Because he's God.
> 
> Blessings, sister.



I don't know how to just _turn on _the belief and trust. I try, but it just doesn't work. 

It'll take some time to go through your posts. Thanks for the book link. I think we have that book but I packed everything I wasn't currently reading in preparation for moving.

Whenever I hear someone talk about God's protection, I get up and leave if I can. Is that really something God does? If so, how is protection being defined?


----------



## caddy (May 22, 2007)

...ah, how true, but He can even help us here, as can the spirit who can intercede for us when we can do nothing more than mutter in our deepest pains! Reading Thomas Watson some time ago, I found a simple selection from his work that beautifully illustrates how God wants us to trust Him Shelly. It brings tears to my eyes every time I read it. To think a young girl could even utter this is almost beyond comprehension, but nonetheless, whether it is something Watson took from an actual event in a young girls life or is simply an illustration, it is powerful:

*A Godly man loves God, though he is reduced to straits. A mother and her 9 year old child were about to die of hunger. The child looked at its mother and said, “Mother, do you think God will starve us?” “No, Child,” said the mother, “He will not.” The child replied, “But if He does, we must love Him, and serve him.”*


*Job 13:15 * Though he slay me, I will hope in him;

My thoughts are: if we cannot trust our heavenly father, who loves us beyond our own comprehension, where can we turn for comfort?

Even in our darkest hours of pain, hunger, sickness, and even death, He is our all in all, our refuge, our very life and hope.



shelly said:


> It's the trusting that's so hard and nearly impossible at times.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 22, 2007)

caddy said:


> ^
> I always find myself saying "Amen" after Pastor Bruce's comments.
> 
> Once again: "Amen"



SAME HERE!!


----------



## Contra_Mundum (May 23, 2007)

shelly said:


> yet it seems to be the One who did nothing.


Nothing? That's where you're letting your _perspective_ control your _interpretation._ I'm hopeful that you will start your revision about the issue right here, right exactly where tonight you are thinking "God was doing _nothing_ in my situation." For as paradoxical as it may seem, I do not think you will start to feel the full measure of divine peace until you begin to view your situation as one in which God was involved as a participant. No, not as one violating his own holy will, but as first of all decreeing those events, and governing their outcome (proceeeding from the wicked heart of a man) at every moment.

You will ask, "Why would he do that?" And the only answer I have is that he is God; and he is good, and everything he does is good, and you ultimately benefit immeasurably as his elect because of his plan. I do not know (perhaps you can ask him in heaven when you arrive) but perhaps you would not have been converted, had your life been any different. Or not been a wife, or a mother, or..., or..., or... The point is, none of us gets to choose a different life. And Scripture tells us that our days were written in the book, before as yet there was a single one of them (Ps. 139:16).

I know one other thing: on Judgment Day, there will be thousands of those who were abused by others standing there, who all went under similar attacks in this life. Some of them will use that as an excuse to justify their lingering rebellion against God. And in reply God will say of those (perhaps like you), "Those there, like shelly, did not use their circumstances to justify themselves against me. Therefore, it is not the case that you wicked were "compelled" to sin further due to your "hard circumstances. Otherwise all of them would be rebellious, just like you lot."



shelly said:


> This is what I am considering. I take things all the way out either direction; and on one end I find a God that is either powerless or uncaring, but on the other end I find a God that plans evil. I don't know where or who God is on that line. ? "those who love him", does that mean the elect? What if you didn't love God at the time of pain, does this verse still apply even though you weren't yet a believer?


Again, the first step, it seems to me, to discover peace, is to acknowledge his sovereignty. Because every other option is ultimately *hopeless*. No matter how appealing it might seem at first, to have a "weaker" God, if you conceive of him less than he is you will eventually lose corresponding confidence in him.

"Those who love him," are the ones who now can appreciate what Paul is saying about him. But they are the SAME group as "the called, according to his purpose," a reference to their unconditional election before all time. So, all the events of a person's life, even those before his/her conversion form the whole constitution of God's saving purpose in that life. It is true that "the miseries of this life" are a part of the general curse on rebelious mankind for sin (so there's a sense in which we deserve all such pain as just desert for being in rebellion). But for the elect, God has salvific intent of allowing every incident of life, even the difficulties.



shelly said:


> It's the trusting that's so hard and nearly impossible at times.


Yes, the life of faith is not the easy life. How much easier it is to not struggle and persevere in the face of the temptations of Satan to distrust. He has to expend so much less energy on you. Satan wants you to give up on believing. For some reason he thinks your faith is important enough to God's kingdom that he MUST try and destroy it. Will you fight him?



shelly said:


> I don't know how to just _turn on _the belief and trust. I try, but it just doesn't work.
> 
> Whenever I hear someone talk about God's protection, I get up and leave if I can. Is that really something God does? If so, how is protection being defined?


You are concentrating on one (extended) particularly horrid episode in your life. True, it seems to have been greatly defining. I wouldn't question that. But I would like to challenge you--to think on how much protection God has shown, and continues to show, toward you. Can you even calculate it? And, isn't it true that he even protected you _*through*_ even the painful episodes of your life, so that you did not suffer MORE, or worse, committ suicide? Or are you minded that it was your own strength that got you through those awful days and times? Was God not providing strength to your body and character, even in the midst of what would otherwise have been soul-destroying?

Hope you have time to reflect further. And please consult your pastors.
Blessings,


----------



## Iconoclast (May 23, 2007)

*Our Great High Priest Is completely Sovereign*

Shelly,
Many have already offered you some fine verses and book recommendations.
Recently I have had a chance to consider Our Lord Jesus Christ as our Great High Priest who eternally loves and cares for all the Father has given to Him. 
In Hebrews 4 we are instructed :
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
When the writer to Hebrews offers these instructions,those to whom he was writing were undergoing severe trials in there lives, so much so that they were in danger of shrinking back from their profession of faith.
They were instructed to consider the fact the Jesus came to earth,because His children were flesh and blood Hebrews 2:9-17. So he likewise took part of the same. He came to die for us, but we are told that as our High Priest He completely understands us and our infirmities. You can think of Him weeping at the death of Lazarus,even though He would soon call Him forth.

33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. 

34And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 

35Jesus wept. 

36Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 

37And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died

Later on in Hebrews we are told that He will never leave us or forsake us. Never, No never leave or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5
When everyone left Jesus before He went to the cross, Jesus said that He was never alone, because the Father was always with Him.
Jn 16:3-33
32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 

33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
It is this Great High Priest who we are to consider, as those martyr's did who suffered with there lives being taken from them ,mentioned in Rev.6;9-11
they were told to rest for awile;
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 

Sometimes we are called to suffer cruel and sinful treatment in this life and yet it is all working for our eternal good.
John the baptist asked "are you He that should come ,or should we look for another? Maybe when he was arrested he could not understand how the kingdom was unfolding on schedule. But it was.

Shelly, take God and His promises contained in His word as the believing children did, in Matthews gospel. I hope I did not ramble on too long.
When I go in prayer to The Lord, I look in Revelation 4 and 5 at the vision of the Lamb that was slain upon the throne. I read of the heavenly worship and I believe in prayer we can come confidently and take part in that worship, and then the peace of God will surround our hearts,like it says in Phillipians 4:6-13


----------



## Semper Fidelis (May 23, 2007)

Shelly,

When you initially asked this question, I thought it was more of a speculative question. I really cannot improve upon what others have said but do want to try to offer you another perspective to the fine perspectives offered.

Job has been brought up 3 times already. I want to offer up the book of Job as a perspective yet again.

One of the reasons that Job is so useful is that it approaches the question from two different angles: the wrong way and the right way. We learn a lot, sometimes, by saying what something is not rather than what something is.

First, we see Job introduced as somebody who is upright, loves God, and prosperous. What does Satan do but accuse Job before God that, the reason Job trusts God, is because only good things happen to Job. So, in language accomodated to our understanding, God permits (plans if you will) that Job will lose everything and then, if that is not enough, his body is wracked with painful boils. Certainly there are few other examples in the Scriptures (other than Christ and Joseph) where something so horrible happens to a man that doesn't seem to deserve it from the perspective of man. Job is one of those books where the world's wisdom will say: trust in this God is foolish. But the Scriptures don't shy away from God revealing that he intends it to demonstrate something.

Next, Job's friends appear on the scene. They're good friends at first. They don't say a thing to Job for seven whole days but just sit silently and grieve with him. That is worth reflecting upon in an of itself how physical presence in another's suffering is so important.

But then they open up their mouths. This is what came to my mind the moment I heard you say people speaking of God's protection. I don't know how they said it to you but some people have a theology just like Job's friends. You really have to take in a ton of material here in terms of the debate that ensues between Job and his "friends" at this point but here's what it boils down to: "Job, people reap what they sow. God is good. Good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. God protects the good and doesn't protect the bad. Therefore, Job, although it seemed you were good, you were really quite bad. You need to repent of this great sin that you've committed Job. Everything that happened is because of your sin."

But Job is rightfully adamant that he cannot repent of a hidden sin because he is not aware of any sin that has brought this on. He is insistent that he's done nothing wrong.

You see, in one sense, Job is right. The reason for the suffering wasn't particular sin - we know the reason for it. What Job gets in some trouble for is failing to glorify God in it.

Elihu, the youngest present, finally is the one who quits focusing on specific sin and simply extols the goodness of God without impugning Job's character as the cause of the suffering.

Finally, God speaks. Finally, we'll get some answers. After all, we kind of know the end from the beginning as to the reason God allowed it. But we're not really satisfied with that answer are we? We don't like the idea that Satan is permitted to destroy Job's flesh. We don't like the idea that all of his kids die. God's speaking now and so we look forward to profound answers, that will satisfy our judgment. God is now going to give account, to us, for "...why bad things happen to good people."

Do you know what He says to Job? In a nutshell, his answer is this: I'm the God that created the heavens and the earth. Can you give account for how I did any of it?

Shelly, I don't know how this consoles you, but Job knew exactly what to do at that point. He placed his hand over his mouth and realized he ought to sit quietly and trust the God that did all of these things. In one sense the answer was that the answer is too great for you to understand while another part of the answer was that: I'm God and you're not.

I hope nobody has ever counselled you with cheap words when they ought to just grieve with you over a tragedy that has befallen you. Many just want to fill in the void of silence because they are uncomfortable with the darkness that comes with suffering. They don't want to endure and grieve with the person suffering. They don't want to be near as the person groans with all her might and pleads for God's comfort. So they'll say something trite. They'll say something about God's protection and provision as if they're Job friends giving the formula for blessing and cursing.

So, finally, I don't have Biblical warrant to pinpoint God's purpose in all circumstances and how that glorified Him or worked to my benefit but I do yet trust Him that He is able and strong to bring about the promise that He works all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes.

And so, when I watched as Anna was gasping for every breath at her birth and thought she might die, I thought of the trust of Job. When I learned she had suffered 3 strokes and might be blind and severely retarded, I thought of the words of Job. I didn't ask God why it happened to me and not someone more deserving of evil than I. That didn't even cross my mind. I was scared, I was grieving, I cried with my wife. But I knew, by the tender mercies of God, that He works all things together for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. How much more terrible would that news have been if He had been impotent to prevent it or work any of it to any good end.


----------



## toddpedlar (May 23, 2007)

Iconoclast said:


> Sometimes we are called to suffer cruel and sinful treatment in this life and yet it is all working for our eternal good.



Hi Shelly -

It is one of the hardest things for someone to understand why God has the things in His plan that He does. I can't begin to comprehend your own pain and won't attempt to sound as though I can. Only know that I'll pray for healing and God's mercy to be showered upon you like the rain.

So many have posted excellent things, and it's hard for me to expand much upon what has already been done - so I only offer this particular thought. The most awful, cruel and hideous act that has ever been performed in history - both because of its physical ugliness and most importantly because of the utter innocence of the victim - was the crucifixion of our Lord. None deserved cruelty less - yet his mistreatment and murder was planned from eternity by God Himself. The men who tortured and killed Christ were responsible for their own actions, but GOD HIMSELF planned and wrote the history of it all before time began. Witness Acts 2:22-23 -


> "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, *being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God*, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"


 and Acts 4:24-28 -


> "And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, _'Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.' _For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, *for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.*"



This grisly act of cruelty on an utterly innocent man was planned in the foreknowledge and determined counsel of God. If so, what does that say for us today? God is the same, today, yesterday and tomorrow - God holds all of history in the finest detail in His hands; including the cruel acts of sinful man, for which they are nevertheless responsible and for which they nevertheless bear the wrath of God (unless the cruel perpetrators repent and are saved through the blood of Christ). God has His purposes for whatever he has seen fit to do. We are often blind to what that purpose is, but this we do know - God is good, _and_ God is sovereign over all His creation, and despite our inability to see through the veil, God works all things together for the good of those who are His. 

My prayers are with you.


----------



## panta dokimazete (May 23, 2007)

I want to further concur with the godly counsel you have received.

Take Romans 8:28 as a guiding principle:

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 

...and, as Todd said, take Christ as the finest example of that principle:

From - Isaiah 53

4Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted. 
5But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;

To - Revelation 5

11Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" 13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

So - apply this principle to your life:

Romans 5

2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 

James 1

2Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
....

12Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Blessings in Christ.


----------



## shelly (May 29, 2007)

Still working through this. I didn't "post and run". 
Thank you for the replies.


----------



## dalecosby (Aug 3, 2007)

KMK said:


> I will jump on the bandwagon as well. It changed my life. Pastor Moorcraft admited in a sermon once that it did the same for him.
> 
> In fact it might be time to reread it...



While the bandwagon jumping is going, I will say that this book had quite an effect on me.
Though I actualy listened to it on my iPod. THere is an audio version on iTunes from Audible.com

It is a great work.
Or should I say it is a great work on grace?


----------



## shelly (Nov 12, 2007)

I was reading through this thread again. Thank you is just not adequate. I keep coming back here. I'm really hanging on to God and trusting in His goodness, even though I don't know what His purpose is. He has been allowing me some glimpses here and there of His working in our family's life and mine in particular.

Thank you for the thoughtful posts. They have been an ongoing encouragement to me and source of learning too.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (Nov 12, 2007)

Exerpt from "The Sovereignty of God"

How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence.[1] To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

A.W. PINK


----------



## Augusta (Nov 12, 2007)

shelly said:


> I was reading through this thread again. Thank you is just not adequate. I keep coming back here. I'm really hanging on to God and trusting in His goodness, even though I don't know what His purpose is. He has been allowing me some glimpses here and there of His working in our family's life and mine in particular.
> 
> Thank you for the thoughtful posts. They have been an ongoing encouragement to me and source of learning too.



I am so glad to hear this. I pray for you often Shelly and your son. We are here for you whenever you need us. God is working and there is a reason you are in this valley.


----------



## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2007)

KMK said:


> IanWatson said:
> 
> 
> > This is a very good book. I definitely recommend.
> ...



Are you talking about the Joe Morecraft message on the Westminster standards? I distinctively remember him referencing that book.


----------



## Amazing Grace (Nov 12, 2007)

shelly said:


> I was reading through this thread again. Thank you is just not adequate. I keep coming back here. I'm really hanging on to God and trusting in His goodness, even though I don't know what His purpose is. He has been allowing me some glimpses here and there of His working in our family's life and mine in particular.
> 
> Thank you for the thoughtful posts. They have been an ongoing encouragement to me and source of learning too.



Shelly:

You have received much wisdom from others in this thread. I am always VERY cautious that I am not as Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite. Job's story does not give us the answers we expected. It does not leave us saying, 'Ah-ha! Now I understand everything.' The mystery of suffering is great, it clouds our simple answers, our narrow speculations. There are, in fact, many things in this life that are well over our heads. Mysteries remain. But we are not entirely abandoned. God is the best and only answer to our suffering. 

The thought of divine judgment becasue of personal sin has been a plague since this book was written, through mediaevil times, and to the present. The puritans grievously erred on this point. They all lived as Jobs friends did. Good crop this year, I must have been good, bad crop, divine judgment against sin. I wonder how they could have strayed so far from the truth.

John 9:1-5
1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, *"Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.*
4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."


Shelly, this is your journey. We can pontificate of imitating the patience or faith of people in scriptures, but this is the very wrong course. You are not Job, you are not Abraham. Neither am I. When we look at what others did or do, we will only fall becasue we are looking to ourselves and some sort of life evidence of blessing and cursing. Look to Christ alone. Do not focus on sin and who is a sinner. Those who do this are sin-conscious and not Son-conscious. 

Job was self righteous during this whole ordeal. His friends were condemning him becasue of some unconfessed sin, JOb was pleading his innocence, how common this is for all of us. And yet the Lord says:Isaiah 54:17
17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
*And their righteousness is from Me*,"
Says the LORD.


Our good intentions are not enough. It is not enough for me to want to help you, but I must also be able to give you Christ.. 

Job's three friends.
Eliphaz was the fruit inspector friend, the Behaviorist. His attitude. Insulting. "Who can keep you from speaking?" Falsely religious? "I had a vision." Arrogant. "It's true. Hear it and apply it. My wisdom comes from personal observation.
1> God rewards those who obey him.
2> He punishes those who sin.
3> Job is suffering - he must have done something wrong.
b) God is discipling Job. 
1> Come clean and God will bless you again. 
2> Blessing means no harm whatsoever.

Bildad,was the Traditionalist. His attitude. Heartless. "Your kids died due to their sin." 
His argument. My wisdom comes from previous generations.
1> God has always worked this way. 
2> Job is forgetting God and acting godless. 
b) Job needs to put his trust back in God. 

C. Zopharis the Religionist. His attitude.... Ticked off at Job. "Will no one rebuke you?" Most arrogant friend.
2) His argument.
My wisdom comes straight from God. Some sin already forgotten - how does Zophar know? Don't question God. Get right with God and put away your sin. 


Henri Nouwen, in "Out of Solitude," says, "When we honestly ask ourselves which persons in our lives mean the most to us, we often find that it is those who, instead of giving much advice, solutions, or cures, have chosen rather to share our pain and touch our wounds with a gentle and tender hand." 

Shelly: Pray, argue, yell, scream, do whatever you feel compeeled to do, but in the end God knows, God is with you. His sovereignty is not a stumbling block. He is ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN. For me to speak more would be to specualte beyond my capacity. I will nto make false assumptions about your life. I will never say,"I know how you feel.." I will not make false assumptions or speculate God's purpose behind lifes circumstances. I have no clue what He is trying to teach me when my life sucks. And still dont after I get through it...All I know is He is God and I am not. They ONLY comfort I have is Christ as a mediator. Thats what Job needed. Job could not cleanse himself, Job could not mask his pain, job could not impugn God and expect to win. His solution was a mediator, and Christ is that person. Someone to come between us and the Father. He has been there, He knows what pain is and how Sovereign God is....

He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch.” He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. *Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will*.” (Mark 16:33-13)


Turn to Him who drank the cup, acknowledging that He drank the cup of wrath that was meant for you. Turn to Jesus, praising Him for the completeness of the sacrifice that is too great for us to comprehend.

God has a plan for your plan shelly!!!!!!!! Acknowledge His control to the utmost. This side of the grave may never give you the answers you are looking for. Still believe.


----------



## Puddleglum (Nov 12, 2007)

Shelly . . . {hugs} . . . something that is as bewildering, but in a good way, as all my questions about how God could have let {fill in the blank} happen is this verse, it's in Isaiah 53 I think, talking about Jesus and how "it pleased the Lord to crush him". That makes no sense to me. I wonder how it could please God to cause that kind of agony to His Son - and yet I know that there is my - and your - only hope.


----------

