# OPC Michigan and Ontario Presbytery



## GraceOverwhelmsMe

My wife and I are currently members of an EPC congregation. The longer we stay in the denomination and the church specifically, and as we grow more Confessional, we find ourselves noticing the liberalism that continues to plague the denomination as it continues to take in more and more PC(USA) congregations as they leave their denomination.

As such, I've begun looking around at churches in the area and there is an OPC church that my wife and I will be visiting on Sunday, but I'm not very familiar with the Michigan & Ontario Presbytery. Does anybody have any opinions on this particular presbytery? I understand that there can be a lot of variation in congregations based on which presbytery they are a member, and I'm not finding a lot of information through Google.

Thanks a lot!


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## Calvinbeza

I would recommand the PCA as well there is New City Presbyterian Church in Royal Oak(http://www.newcitypc.org), as well as Redeemer Presbyterian Midtown Detroit(http://redeemerdetroit.com) Dan Milward is a very good preacher.
And in harrison Township there is Knox Presbyterian which come from the EPC to the PCA.see	http://www.knoxpca.org


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## Hamalas

Calvinbeza said:


> I would recommand the PCA as well there is New City Presbyterian Church in Royal Oak(http://www.newcitypc.org), as well as Redeemer Presbyterian Midtown Detroit(http://redeemerdetroit.com) Dan Milward is a very good preacher.
> And in harrison Township there is Knox Presbyterian which come from the EPC to the PCA.see	http://www.knoxpca.org



Um...as a PCA man, I'd say stick with the OPC. You're more likely to find a solid and confessionally Reformed church among those brothers than in the churches listed. The one in Royal Oaks even has deaconesses!


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Hamalas said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would recommand the PCA as well there is New City Presbyterian Church in Royal Oak(http://www.newcitypc.org), as well as Redeemer Presbyterian Midtown Detroit(http://redeemerdetroit.com) Dan Milward is a very good preacher.
> And in harrison Township there is Knox Presbyterian which come from the EPC to the PCA.see	http://www.knoxpca.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um...as a PCA man, I'd say stick with the OPC. You're more likely to find a solid and confessionally Reformed church among those brothers than in the churches listed. The one in Royal Oaks even has deaconesses!
Click to expand...


Yeah, I've looked into every PCA around here. There is also Presbyterian Free Church of Livonia that I could almost walk to, but (don't shoot me), I'm not completely sold on a capella EP, and it looks like they haven't had a solid pastor for quite awhile and it's actually a student at Puritan Theological Seminary teaching right now. That's just based on what I got on the website - if somebody attends there, and this is wrong, feel free to correct me.

In any case, based on my research, the OPC is where I'd be most comfortable. I just wanted to know where this presbytery stood in contrast to some of the most conservative ones around the country.

Just for reference, we're looking at Oakland Hills Community Church in Farmington Hills. Worst case scenario, we'll go check out Covenant in Brighton.

Thanks!


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## Romans922

I asked a friend who knows the area well he responded:

ohcc http://ohcc.net/ might as well be epc
that's where my parents go
last time we were there, he preached a sermon on how Jesus abrogated the sabbath and was free to break the law
i grew up in livonia, mi, and my parents live in northville. if i still lived in the area, i'd go either http://www.pfclivonia.org/tp40/Default.asp?ID=263404 or http://reformed.com/

from what little i know of the other two opc's http://popc.org/ http://www.opcbrighton.org/ i wouldn't recommend them
​but i don't have as much experience with them as oakland hills


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## Parakaleo

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> We find ourselves noticing the liberalism that continues to plague the denomination as it continues to take in more and more PC(USA) congregations as they leave their denomination.



As someone outside the EPC and not familiar with the denomination (other than the fact they allow women "elders" and "ministers"), I wonder if you could elaborate on this for me? With some specifics?


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## Jack K

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> There is also Presbyterian Free Church of Livonia that I could almost walk to, but (don't shoot me), I'm not completely sold on a capella EP, and it looks like they haven't had a solid pastor for quite awhile and it's actually a student at Puritan Theological Seminary teaching right now.



I'm not EP either, but I will say you shouldn't count out a church just because of its psalm-singing tradition. Perhaps they don't sing psalms exclusively, and anyway, you could do much worse than to find a church that sings psalms. Lack of a pastor might be an issue, but walking distance is a huge benefit!

In any case, you probably ought to visit a few of the best options and ask questions directly. That's really the way to pick a church. And give extra consideration to whichever churches inquire about your current membership and are concerned that you leave your current church peaceably. That's a sign of godly leadership, and good character in leadership ought to be high on your list of criteria.


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## Tim

Brian, my church is about five miles from you. Solidly confessional. Just sayin'.


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## Contra_Mundum

I'm from this Presbytery, and I would happily recommend most any of the OPC churches in the Detroit metro, even if ours (way out in the boonies of No.Mi.) happens to be _slightly_ more straight laced than one or another of them. Few OPCs would seem otherwise than fuddy-duddy to an outsider.

http://opc.org/locator.html

The OPC Southfield ( http://popc.org/ ) pastor was a faithful man in a liberal church, before he had to leave, kind of like you. He might be a good fit for you.

The Brighton pastor ( http://www.opcbrighton.org/ ) is a gracious man.

Oakland Hills is both the largest in that area, and probably the least "conservative," but you might find it comfortable there. Rev.Barnes' contact's experience notwithstanding, if I were you, I would make visits and have personal conversations and ask the pastor key questions before accepting report of faults third hand.

A bit further away, Pilgrim OPC in Metamora ( http://pilgrimmetamora.org ) is in the midst of receiving a new minister this month, happens to be an old friend of mine from seminary days. He is as confessional as they come.


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## Nate

I attended the Brighton OPC for 4 years. Our family was blessed and experienced much growth in the Reformed faith during our time there. The preaching was solid and the saints in the congregation live commendable Christian lives.


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## yeutter

The OPC is a solid confessional body; but it is also a solidly VanTillian body.


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## Andres

Tim said:


> Brian, my church is about five miles from you. Solidly confessional. Just sayin'.



Run, don't walk, to this church!


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## Reformed Covenanter

yeutter said:


> The OPC is a solid confessional body; but it is also a solidly VanTillian body.



Is it solidly VanTillian? Carl Trueman is not a VanTillian and is a minister in the OPC.


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## Edward

If the OPC is too liberal for you, you probably should go to one of the churches recommended. If the OPC isn't too liberal for you, then you should find it a solid body. It doesn't have the range of the PCA (which is a good thing). 

As for PCA, 'Redeemer' churches tend more evangelical, and 'City' churches tend toward hipness and diversity. But PCA churches at this point need to be judged on a congregation by congregation basis (except, perhaps Westminster Presbytery which is very conservative). You shouldn't need that level of care with the OPC.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Jack K said:


> I'm not EP either, but I will say you shouldn't count out a church just because of its psalm-singing tradition. Perhaps they don't sing psalms exclusively, and anyway, you could do much worse than to find a church that sings psalms. Lack of a pastor might be an issue, but walking distance is a huge benefit!
> 
> 
> In any case, you probably ought to visit a few of the best options and ask questions directly. That's really the way to pick a church. And give extra consideration to whichever churches inquire about your current membership and are concerned that you leave your current church peaceably. That's a sign of godly leadership, and good character in leadership ought to be high on your list of criteria.



Oh, I'm not ruling them out. Although I'm not EP, I actually see it as perhaps more wise than not, but EP isn't a non-starter for me. It would be foolish of me to say, "No - I refuse to only sing songs that are theopneustos". I'm more concerned about their lack of a solid committed, educated pastor, but we haven't ruled them out just yet.



Contra_Mundum said:


> I'm from this Presbytery, and I would happily recommend most any of the OPC churches in the Detroit metro, even if ours (way out in the boonies of No.Mi.) happens to be _slightly_ more straight laced than one or another of them. Few OPCs would seem otherwise than fuddy-duddy to an outsider.



I'm looking for a lot of fuddy, but only just a little duddy. 



Contra_Mundum said:


> The OPC Southfield ( http://popc.org/ ) pastor was a faithful man in a liberal church, before he had to leave, kind of like you. He might be a good fit for you.



I don't know why I thought Southfield was further than it is. I didn't even give Southfield a look. My current church is out west (Northville), so I kind of just kept looking out that direction. This widens my scope for search.



Contra_Mundum said:


> The Brighton pastor ( http://www.opcbrighton.org/ ) is a gracious man.



I considered this, but this is kind of on the "far" distance for what my wife and I discussed. 



Contra_Mundum said:


> Oakland Hills is both the largest in that area, and probably the least "conservative," but you might find it comfortable there. Rev.Barnes' contact's experience notwithstanding, if I were you, I would make visits and have personal conversations and ask the pastor key questions before accepting report of faults third hand.



I have an e-mail out to the pastor with several questions (questions I wish I would have known to ask before I became far more conservative and joined an EPC congregation). One of the questions I did ask is about a couple of "issues" in RPW that I noted on their website. For example, I asked where on the spectrum (RSC to Frame) of RPW they'd say they lie since they use contemporary instruments and music in their services as well as if they try to get a good mix of Psalms/Hymns/Contemporary or if various services lean heavy one way week by week, along with others. 

In any case, thank you all very much for your recommendations. I hadn't originally considered the RPCNA, but based on your solid reviews, I may look into those as well. I was pretty much leaning towards OPC exclusively at this point.

Thanks!


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## Tim

Brian, let me know if you ever wish to visit my church. We would be delighted to welcome you some Lord's Day.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Tim said:


> Brian, let me know if you ever wish to visit my church. We would be delighted to welcome you some Lord's Day.



Much appreciated!


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## Moos

We visited the Presbytarian Free Church in Livonia. We had a very good service! The preaching student called us and told us he is staying longer in that church. 

I was wondering why the church in Farmington Hills is the least conservatice OPC church?


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## Contra_Mundum

Moos said:


> I was wondering why the church in Farmington Hills is the least conservatice OPC church?



I put "conservative" inside quote-marks for whoever renders such a value judgment (_least_) is necessarily subjective and imprecise.

I also compared it *only* to the other three churches I mentioned, and kept in mind the previously offered descriptions said to come from a man reporting his own experience.

I said it was _probably_ so (and comparatively), mainly because of worship aesthetics, and not doctrine (strictly speaking). In the USA, urban congregations may be more likely than rural ones to seek variety in presentation, hoping to have a broad community appeal. I'm not claiming FHCC even does this, and for any reason.

I do not accept, on a third hand report, the claim that the pastor denigrated the Christian Sabbath. I know him, and do not think him an innovater.

To repeat my point: the only way to have a fair comparative impression of a place is to visit it, preferably more than once, and ask questions.


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## Moos

We do contra_mundum, tomorrow again [emoji6].


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Contra_Mundum said:


> Moos said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering why the church in Farmington Hills is the least conservatice OPC church?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I put "conservative" inside quote-marks for whoever renders such a value judgment (_least_) is necessarily subjective and imprecise.
> 
> I also compared it *only* to the other three churches I mentioned, and kept in mind the previously offered descriptions said to come from a man reporting his own experience.
> 
> I said it was _probably_ so (and comparatively), mainly because of worship aesthetics, and not doctrine (strictly speaking). In the USA, urban congregations may be more likely than rural ones to seek variety in presentation, hoping to have a broad community appeal. I'm not claiming FHCC even does this, and for any reason.
> 
> I do not accept, on a third hand report, the claim that the pastor denigrated the Christian Sabbath. I know him, and do not think him an innovater.
> 
> To repeat my point: the only way to have a fair comparative impression of a place is to visit it, preferably more than once, and ask questions.
Click to expand...


My wife and I visited OHCC today and had a nice chat with Pastor Rebrandt for about an hour, and I've had email communication with him as well. I had asked him to tell me what RPW looks like to him, and he sent me a 29 page position paper that he had written about 20 years ago. I think all of the complaints come from various definitions of RPW. They perform contemporary music (that has been vetted for both theological soundness and that the music matches the theological implications). His argument for inclusion of contemporary music and instrumentation is an argument to consistency. He argues that if a church's definition of RPW includes hymns and an organ, but bars the use of newer songs as if hymns and organs weren't "contemporary" at one point or another, they are being inconsistent with their definition and are appealing to preferences over Biblical mandate or example. 

The preaching is expositional in nature, doctrine is preached from the pulpit, and from what I've seen, they take the Sabbath seriously. They are Confessional and take Chapter 21 seriously - they just don't do music the way a lot of Reformed folks like. He would say, "You either have to be a capella EP, or you have to allow for contemporary music with contemporary instruments to be consistent." The music (and use of juice rather than wine) is thing I think you'd find would define is as least "conservative."

I'll be returning this evening for their 6pm worship service. 

Have a good Lord's Day all. Just wanted to hop on to give my take on the church.


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## Contra_Mundum

I, for one, and very happy to hear you had a gracious and blessed visit there.


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## Moos

Thank you, Graceoverwhelmsme, that is clear to me. How was your 6M service? [emoji6]


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## Tom Hart

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> There is also Presbyterian Free Church of Livonia that I could almost walk to, but... it's actually a student at Puritan Theological Seminary teaching right now...



I might encourage you to try it. Pray, of course, but maybe the congregation could use some solid people. By your description, it sounds like it's probably a smallish church. And I'd bet the student pastor fellow could use some encouragement.

Ordination does not guarantee good teaching, nor does age. I've had experienced pastors who don't know the first thing about preaching the word. I wouldn't assume that this student pastor is the next Calvin or Ursinus, but he might be good.

In any case, trust that God will answer your prayers for wisdom and discernment. You might have to pop in to a few places before you decide.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Moos said:


> Thank you, Graceoverwhelmsme, that is clear to me. How was your 6M service? [emoji6]
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk



It was great - sang some hymns from the Trinity hymnal and did an overview of Ezekial. Key chapters/verses, Who/What/When/Why, etc... Really big book to get through in 40 minutes, but was really informative.

Thanks for asking


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