# Lutherans and idolatry



## saintandsinner77 (Oct 24, 2011)

I recently watched a youtube clip in which a Lutheran pastor was seen burning incense to a crucifix during worship. In another instance I saw Lutherans kneeling before the eucharist.

Would brothers and sisters here agree that these practices are idolatrous? If the answer is yes, why do you think some Reformed folks are willing to overlook these practices and assume Lutherans are our brothers and sisters in Christ (and I'm not saying none are)? Is it due to the fact that we share a common agreement concerning total depravity and sola fide?


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## Moireach (Oct 27, 2011)

The first thing is definitely idolatry, certainly a crucix in and of itself is blasphemous. I don't agree with the kneeling but I don't know enough about the subject to comment on whether it's idolatry.

Luther's theology on justification was excellent and that's a big thing. He was wrong on other things but on this very key issue he was bold on condemning the Roman church. 

So when it comes to regarding Lutherans as brothers and sisters, I would take each case individually. I'd be surprised if they all did these things. Anglicans regard the Queen as the head of the Church. I suppose for me these areas are a wee bit grey but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to say that there are surely many Christians in the Lutheran and Anglican church. Though you are right to be a bit more skeptical in these cases.


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## J. Dean (Oct 27, 2011)

Luther was also a lot closer to Calvinism than some Lutherans are willing to admit.


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## jwithnell (Oct 27, 2011)

My parents are Lutheran. I've never been sure if Lutherans coming forward and kneeling is kneeling in prayer, or kneeling in relation to the elements. The latter would, in my opinion, be idolatry


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## Jack K (Oct 27, 2011)

jwithnell said:


> I've never been sure if Lutherans coming forward and kneeling is kneeling in prayer, or kneeling in relation to the elements.



That's a good point. Sometimes you just can't tell from a youtube clip what's going on. You need to be able to ask the pastor or the worshipers.

I was in a faithful Presbyterian church once when the pastor suggested the congregation kneel (in their pews) and pray prior to receiving Communion. One of those people who was always eager to accuse the church of wrongdoing complained that this was worshipping the elements. No. It was just prayer.


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## Weston Stoler (Oct 27, 2011)

I am sure you can find many videos about Presbyterians (especially PCUSA Presbyterian's) doing something idolatrous. Are ALL Lutherans that way? Are their main doctrines idolatrous? With that decide if they commit idolatry. On Youtube videos an accusation we should not make (pulled a yoda lol)


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## Peairtach (Oct 27, 2011)

The Lutherans have always had a broader and an unbiblical view of worship compared to the Reformed. What is not forbidden in Scripture is permitted in Luther's principle of worship.

This does not mean we should write them off as unconverted, just that they are sinners like the rest of us.

If we have a better doctrine of worship, as I believe we have, we should thank God for that, and remember that with greater light comes greater responsibility.

The fact the Lutheran (and the Presbyterian) Church have been infected by liberal theology, is a more fundamental test of whether there are likely to be true believers in any particular Lutheran congregation. Is the Lutheran congregation liberal or not?


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## Stargazer65 (Oct 27, 2011)

I never had much contact with Lutherans until recently. I assumed most were very liberal until I had contact with a large contingent of evangelical lutherans at a Ken Ham AIG conference. I was surprised that there were Lutherans that were on fire for the gospel, and even believed in a literal Genesis account. Each person, each local church is a separate case.


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## jwithnell (Oct 28, 2011)

In this case, the denominations are vastly different. The Evangelical Lutheran Churches are way out there accepting everything liberal and even RC. The Missouri and Wisconsin Synod denominations lean toward reformed churches in many ways. At one point, some credits from Missouri Synod seminaries were accepted at some reformed seminaries. 

Quite frankly, I like the idea of kneeling for some prayers, or at least being comfortable if people choose to do so. I've wondered if we've swung so far toward being anti-RC that we've abandoned practices that might be fully appropriate.


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## jwright82 (Oct 28, 2011)

I was a attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church here in town and they did not in anyway expressly worship the elements the way the RCC does.


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## Christoffer (Oct 29, 2011)

Lutheranism is the dominant denomination in my country. Over here there is definitely a tendency towards catholicism with crucifixes, baptismal regeneration, Mary worship.

However there are many who I see as brothers and sisters in the faith, but it is not always mutual. Sometimes it feels as you can be anything as long as you are not a calvinist


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## Rufus (Oct 29, 2011)

There are often different movements within a theological system (such as those we find in the Reformed as well as Lutheranism), so some may tend to be more towards the Roman Catholic type of worship and others to Reformed worship (this is the same for Anglicanism with the High Church and the Low Church).


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