# Matthew 23:9 stumper



## Richard King (Dec 23, 2005)

How would you respond to your first born son if he decided that you are NOT his father based on this:


Matt. 23:9 
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

When I pointed out "honor thy father" as something he should consider...he responded with those words from Jesus.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 23, 2005)

I'd spank him.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 23, 2005)

smart mouth....ooohhh!!!!


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## kevin.carroll (Dec 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> I'd spank him.



 Or explain the text to him...and THEN spank him! 

[Edited on 12-23-2005 by kevin.carroll]


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## non dignus (Dec 23, 2005)

I'd say,


"Jesus was just anticipating the Roman Catholics. Now clean up your room!"


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 23, 2005)

After you correct him, you need to tell him to reconcile the Matthew 23:9-10 passage with 1 Cor. 7:23, Romans 13:1, 1 Peter 2:13-15, Ephesians 5:7, and Hebrews 13:17.

We are to submit to no man as God. The soul and conscience should not be subject to man, but to God. Therefore we call no man father or leader as *supreme *masters. Yet we are to submit to our leaders and to the ruling government as *subordinate *masters. As Samuel Bolton said, we obey God in man, but not man as God.

Jesus, in Matthew 23 is referring masters according to the spirit, not according to the flesh.

I highly recommend reading Samuel Bolton's 1645 work _The True Bounds Of Christian Freedom_. Chapter 8 is the shortest of all the chapters and addresses this point specifically and thouroughly.


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## Richard King (Dec 23, 2005)

Well I would love to but he is 25 years old. 

Which brings up another question. Is the honor your father commandment over once someone leaves his family to become one with another? That is another thought that apparently makes sense to him. He uses scripture skillfully in all of his arguments. Just has no real understanding. Because I cannot argue well quoting scripture and verse he ends up feeling quite pleased with "winning" the arguments using God's word.


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## gwine (Dec 23, 2005)

> Is the honor your father commandment over once someone leaves his family to become one with another? That is another thought that apparently makes sense to him. He uses scripture skillfully in all of his arguments. Just has no real understanding. Because I cannot argue well quoting scripture and verse he ends up feeling quite pleased with "winning" the arguments using God's word.



Even the non-believing Romans at the time of Christ understood that the father was head of the house and that his son was to obey him all the days the father lived.

The WLC q.123-133 addresses the question of who fathers and mothers are as well as the honors due them, _etc_. You can find this with proof texts here. (Warning: PDF file) This was from the OPC web site. Perhaps you can find what you need.

And, I would add, he is sinning if he uses Scripture against you in such a matter.


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## kevin.carroll (Dec 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Richard King_
> Well I would love to but he is 25 years old.
> 
> Which brings up another question. Is the honor your father commandment over once someone leaves his family to become one with another? That is another thought that apparently makes sense to him. He uses scripture skillfully in all of his arguments. Just has no real understanding. Because I cannot argue well quoting scripture and verse he ends up feeling quite pleased with "winning" the arguments using God's word.



Mark 7:10-13 is pretty clear that the Fifth Commandment applies to adult children as well.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 23, 2005)

Honoring is also different than obeying.


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## non dignus (Dec 23, 2005)

Richard, 

My heart goes out to you. Would it be helpful if you showed your son these posts on PB and how we assumed he was much younger? I only say that because he is handling the word unskillfully. 

And don't feel bad because we've all been tied in knots by Jehovah's Witnesses at some time or other.

All our prayers,
Dave


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## satz (Dec 23, 2005)

Colleen,

could you possibly elaborate a little on what you mean?



> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Honoring is also different than obeying.


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## kevin.carroll (Dec 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Colleen,
> 
> could you possibly elaborate a little on what you mean?
> ...



If I may jump in, the concept of honoring includes obedience, to be sure. But it also refers to holding in high regard. It implies as well the idea of caring for our parents (which means $$) in their old age. That is precisely the point of Mark 10.

While I believe there is a time, when children leave their home, that they no longer are under the authority of their parents (and no longer bound to obedience), yet the obligation to honor never goes away.

You have never said what type of church your son is in, or where he is getting this from. I ask because my father grew up in a cult that used the Scripture you have mentioned (and others) to create a rift in our family that lasted more than 20 years.

Some background might help.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Richard King_
> ...



Exactly. Also 1 Tim 5:1 indicates respectful differentiation is due to our parents...
Likewise, 1 Tim 5:4-8 refers to the care we are to give to our parents... this reflects an ongoing obligation to honor them...


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## fredtgreco (Dec 24, 2005)

This might be of some help:

Sermon on Fifth Commandment


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## Richard King (Dec 24, 2005)

Thank you all. 
I am watching a life unravel. My oldest son is a brilliant young man extremely gifted in computer programming and misunderstanding scripture.
I may be looking at some components of mental illness in him. 
Your advice is very much appreciated.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 24, 2005)

Richard,

You may also want to consider Paul's words in 1 Cor 4:!5 and Phil. 2:22. If the injunction against using the term "father" were universal and for all occasions, then that Scripture is sinful.

It is interesting how being "disobedient to parents" s listed amongst the worst of all sins, and is a sign of the end times (Rom 1:28-32; 2 Tim 3). I also think James 3:9 applies here-- how can we bless God and curse men with the same mouth?


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