# Fred Phelp's son leaves the faith



## Pergamum (Apr 27, 2009)

The Incredible & Brave Nate Phelps!

Nate Phelps

What, he had such great role models too!



Note: Fred Phelps is an orthodox five pointer it seems. 

Question: Do you think Fred Phelps is saved?


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## Jon Peters (Apr 27, 2009)

I would leave the faith of Fred Phelps as well, though I wish that Nate had fled to Christ and not to nihilism and atheism.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 27, 2009)

Anecdotal though it is, does this not reflect in many ways the life stories of notable/vocal atheists out there today? A terrible religious upbringing results in extreme reaction against religion. Or is this not similar to the testimony of the "been there, done that" folks who profess to be "Christian" but don't want to darken the door of a church b/c of some past bad experience therein? The missus is always fond of saying that just because you you have one bad experience at a restaurant doesn't mean you stop eating out.


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## Pergamum (Apr 27, 2009)

Most folks who are anti-christian are not that way due to Christ, but due to those who claim to follow him. This sounds weird, but when I meet these sort of folks I give them an apology for all Christians,for the Crusades, for the Inquisition, for anti-semitism, and I beg them please do not disregard Christ because of the sins of his people. Many people are hurt by the church and they harden themselves against Christ. 

Oh Lord, save us from "your people."










Excerpt from Nate Phelps:



_My father is a self-styled Primitive Baptist, adhering to the teachings of John Calvin. The acronym TULIP defines the basic tenets of this branch of Protestantism. 

“T” stands for “Total Depravity”
“U” stands for “Unconditional Election”
“L” stands for “Limited Atonement”
“I” stands for “Irresistible Grace
And “P” stands for “Perseverance of the Saints”

But the heart of Calvinism is the doctrine of absolute predestination, which posits that in the council halls of eternity past, an omniscient and omnipotent god preordained who would be saved, and who would be damned. Mankind would have no say or choice in this, since they are dead in their trespasses and sin. If you are selected you gain eternal life. If you lose, you suffer the most extreme physical and mental anguish forever. My father has simply refined Calvin’s doctrine to the point where the vast majority of us are going to hell. And he and his followers are among the privileged few chosen by God.

This doctrine is very important to understanding the Westboro Baptist Church. My father, and those who follow him, are not preaching to try to convince people of their truth. Unlike street evangelists, who are trying to convert people, my father has no intention of converting anyone, since conversion is impossible. You’re either chosen, or you’re not. To illustrate, in the mid 90’s my father was a guest on a radio talk show hosted by a popular Christian apologist named Rich Buehler. Mr. Buehler suggested that my father’s failure at bearing any fruit from his evangelizing efforts might point to some error in his theology. With typical aggression my father barked back at him: “That’s not the test!! The test is fidelity in preaching!”_


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## shackleton (Apr 27, 2009)

I would imagine after being under someone that is filled with so much hatred for so many years you would believe that God is much like him. Since all he talked about was how much God hates. Maybe atheism or nihilism seem tame compared to his father's religion.


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## ww (Apr 27, 2009)

This is where confusion of the Law and Gospel leads. Law without Gospel is Hopeless and leads to Pride for those who think they are Law-keepers and the Gospel without the Law is no Gospel at all.


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## Berean (Apr 27, 2009)

Such a sad "family". 
I feel for the children.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 27, 2009)

Let's pray for him. After being raised by that demonic monster perhaps an existential vacuum is a good place to start. I pray he has not become so calloused that he cannot see the beauty and majesty of God. May God in mercy, grant him repentance.


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## a mere housewife (Apr 27, 2009)

He is rejecting the god of his father but I don't think that 'the god of his father' as presented in his father's ministry, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I do pray _that_ God will have mercy on him.


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## BJClark (Apr 27, 2009)

BobVigneault;



> Let's pray for him. After being raised by that demonic monster perhaps an existential vacuum is a good place to start. I pray he has not become so calloused that he cannot see the beauty and majesty of God. May God in mercy, grant him repentance.



And for his other siblings, that God will use the two brothers who have left home..to open their hearts to their other siblings as they too look to leave home, either by running away or just leaving..that God may reconcile them all to Himself...and may they all learn to forgive their father who sinned against them..

I also hurt for their mother, his wife, may she not be bitter towards her children for leaving her behind knowing the beatings that would befall her after they left. 

I've known a few women who have carried that kind of bitterness towards their children after they left home, feeling the kids abandoned them, when they did not have the strength to leave on their own.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 27, 2009)

What an unutterably sad tale.

What a stain on Calvin's good name is that hideous father. That man would have been defrocked long ago, in any well ordered (and more than one disordered) church--assuming he could have been ordained in the first place.

Him being accountable to no one, picking and choosing his religious dogmas, a stranger to the God of mercy.

What I couldn't help was thinking of my own children. Being a sinner myself, I hope my sins don't drive them away from the Refuge.

I think, at some point, my kids should read this man's "testimony," or someone's like him.


The other thing I thought of: how about all the nightmare scenes in the lives of kids growing up in some atheist homes? See, this man's tragic tale is not a post hoc indictment of religion. Unless it is also a post hoc indictment of irreligion also, which exposes the fallacy.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 27, 2009)

Contra_Mundum said:


> What an unutterably sad tale.
> 
> What a stain on Calvin's good name is that hideous father. That man would have been defrocked long ago, in any well ordered (and more than one disordered) church--assuming he could have been ordained in the first place.



Excellent point. If he truly were a follower of Calvin, his abuses would have been dealt with long ago.


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## Theoretical (Apr 27, 2009)

Contra_Mundum said:


> What an unutterably sad tale.
> 
> What a stain on Calvin's good name is that hideous father. That man would have been defrocked long ago, in any well ordered (and more than one disordered) church--assuming he could have been ordained in the first place.
> 
> ...


Or meet an old friend and her "husband" (read: lesbians). Both were raised strict Catholic (Jesuit-trained dads), in strict military families, and where lots of guilt and legalism were all throughout their makeup. It was so tragic talking with them because I've known LOTS of people raised strict moralist who are as thoroughly non-Christian as they are now. The most telling comment from my roommate on seeing them - "I knew the moment I saw them that they'd been raised in a Christian home".

May the Lord have mercy on these very seared souls who are warning beacons for those of us in the Church.


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## AThornquist (Apr 27, 2009)

There are some serious horror stories on Nate Phelps' website. It truly breaks my heart to hear of what Fred Phelps has done to his wife and children. Absolutely disgusting.


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## chbrooking (Apr 27, 2009)

Should I know who Fred and Nate are?


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## jogri17 (Apr 27, 2009)

He is an excellent example of hyper calvinism and the danger of supralasperianism


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## Marrow Man (Apr 27, 2009)

Careful, Joseph -- not every supralapsarian is a Fred Phelps, or even close!


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## OPC'n (Apr 27, 2009)

Don't know the guy. Could there be another side to the story? Different members of my family (immediate and not immediate) state things that happened to them which didn't and they really believe it did. I really don't know. This story could be completely true, but I wonder if there is a another side to the story. Anyone really know the father?


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## Rich Koster (Apr 28, 2009)

jogri17 said:


> He is an excellent example of hyper calvinism and the danger of supralasperianism



I know several hypers who are not vicious. Fred Phelps is in a classification that we have not even labeled properly yet.


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 28, 2009)

"You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where it's at. You had no faith to lose, and you know it!" - Bob Dylan.

I can't bring myself to call what this son was brought up in _a faith_ much less _the faith_.


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## chbrooking (Apr 28, 2009)

MrMerlin777 said:


> "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where it's at. You had no faith to lose, and you know it!" - Bob Dylan.
> 
> I can't bring myself to call what this son was brought up in _a faith_ much less _the faith_.



Sadly, it seems those words will haunt Bob Dylan


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## MrMerlin777 (Apr 28, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> MrMerlin777 said:
> 
> 
> > "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where it's at. You had no faith to lose, and you know it!" - Bob Dylan.
> ...



 But true enough. And it is indeed sad.


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## Staphlobob (Apr 28, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> _ Mr. Buehler suggested that my father’s failure at bearing any fruit from his evangelizing efforts might point to some error in his theology. With typical aggression my father barked back at him: “That’s not the test!! The test is fidelity in preaching!”_


 
Yet, say what we will, Fred Phelps is correct at this point.


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## steven-nemes (Apr 28, 2009)

I am finding it amusing that all the atheists find his experience "inspiring" and that he is "brave" for becoming an atheist being raised by hypercalvinist parents. Wow, big deal; Alvin Plantinga says it thus: "religion-bashing in the current Western academy is about as dangerous as endorsing the party's candidate at a Republican rally."


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## kalawine (Apr 28, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Anecdotal though it is, does this not reflect in many ways the life stories of notable/vocal atheists out there today? A terrible religious upbringing results in extreme reaction against religion. Or is this not similar to the testimony of the "been there, done that" folks who profess to be "Christian" but don't want to darken the door of a church b/c of some past bad experience therein? The missus is always fond of saying that just because you you have one bad experience at a restaurant doesn't mean you stop eating out.



Right on Marrow man! It's so stupid! I've had some bad jobs in the past and I've worked with some lousy people. But I've always continued to work!

-----Added 4/28/2009 at 08:55:34 EST-----



Marrow Man said:


> Careful, Joseph -- not every supralapsarian is a Fred Phelps, or even close!



Thank you sir! And not every supralapsarian is a HyperCalvinist.


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## AThornquist (Apr 28, 2009)

For those who don't know who Fred Phelps is--he is the patriarch of the Westborough Baptist Church, aka "God Hates F*gs" church. These are the folks who protest all sorts of events with their hateful signs. Nate Phelps, who is one of Fred's sons who escaped the cult, actually had (has?) PTSD because of his father's violence. Goodness...


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## Berean (Apr 28, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> For those who don't know who Fred Phelps is--he is the patriarch of the Westborough Baptist Church, aka "God Hates F*gs" church. These are the folks who protest all sorts of events with their hateful signs. Nate Phelps, who is one of Fred's sons who escaped the cult, actually had (has?) PTSD because of his father's violence. Goodness...



They particularly like to "protest" at the funerals of our military heroes who are slain in battle.


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## py3ak (Apr 29, 2009)

What I don't understand is why no one will press charges against the man. I don't know what the statute of limitations is, but you would think that such a long track record of violence would be enough to get the State to intervene.

The article should also remove any lingering doubt that atheism is a religion - not a particularly logical one, at that; but it also shows that we need to be careful to distance ourselves from the Fred Phelps types - they do nothing but bring reproach on the name of Christ, and blaspheme that worthy name by which they pretend to have been called. And one vitally important way to do that is to address the problems of authoritarianism and its accompanying abuses. We are shocked by the violence of Phelps against his wife and children; but is it _altogether_ impossible that some nice family with obedient children in our church has gotten that external appearance of Reformed togetherness through some very unreformed methods involving systematic temper tantrums on the part of the patriarch?

I don't wish to encourage anyone to engage in evil surmisings; but we need to realize that men are sometimes admired at church who are devils at home.


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## Pergamum (Apr 29, 2009)

the main lesson I took away from reading Nate Phelps' blog was how we need to live our faith instead of merely hold to "orthodoxy" and think that more cognitive info equals more holiness. 

I also took from it that evil men will use any club to beat others with, and Calvinism is a very good Logic Club to smack folks around with.

Reading through I John while reading Nate Phelp's blog put the issue into perspective in that John wrote simple and also wrote much about love as an apologetic.


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## calgal (Apr 29, 2009)

py3ak said:


> What I don't understand is why no one will press charges against the man. I don't know what the statute of limitations is, but you would think that such a long track record of violence would be enough to get the State to intervene.
> 
> The article should also remove any lingering doubt that atheism is a religion - not a particularly logical one, at that; but it also shows that we need to be careful to distance ourselves from the Fred Phelps types - they do nothing but bring reproach on the name of Christ, and blaspheme that worthy name by which they pretend to have been called. And one vitally important way to do that is to address the problems of authoritarianism and its accompanying abuses. We are shocked by the violence of Phelps against his wife and children; but is it _altogether_ impossible that some nice family with obedient children in our church has gotten that external appearance of Reformed togetherness through some very unreformed methods involving systematic temper tantrums on the part of the patriarch?
> 
> I don't wish to encourage anyone to engage in evil surmisings; but we need to realize that men are sometimes admired at church who are devils at home.



1. The kids were well behaved, middle class (sort of) and those families rarely were investigated for abuse. 
2. The mandatory reporting laws were not around back then. 

As for whether there is abuse in our churches, there very likely is and from the least likely sources.


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## Parsifal23 (Apr 29, 2009)

Fred Phelps is an hyper-Calvinist who runs an spiritually abusive cult it's not a surprise his son became an Unbeliever. Fred Phelps is no more saved then I am an Turnip.


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## BJClark (Apr 29, 2009)

> Fred Phelps is an hyper-Calvinist who runs an spiritually abusive cult it's not a surprise his son became an Unbeliever. Fred Phelps is no more saved then I am an Turnip.



It appears the father probably lives more in fear of God's judgment than he does in the peace of God's grace and mercy...


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 29, 2009)

Perhaps I am missing something then...if Phelps is an extremist-hypercalvinist then why the protests? Why does "his" church drive throughout the country protesting at military members funerals? If God is indeed punishing the US for the unregenerate what does Phelps hope to accomplish by protesting at the funerals of fallen soldiers? Awareness that they would have died anyway? I mean if homosexuals are chosen vessels for God's wrath what does a protest rally accomplish? Seems Phelps ain't buying into his own theology and needs media attention instead of the Gospel. Perhaps if he knew the Gospel and preached the Gospel to homosexuals with love and respect it would make more sense. I don't see anywhere in the word of God where we are to protest using hate and disdain.


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## Pergamum (Apr 29, 2009)

Maybe Phelps wants to be "persecuted" for his faith, a strange psychology that says the more people hate you, the more correct you must be (I have heard other Calvy preachers, too, brag when their preaching drives people away)


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## Montanablue (Apr 29, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Maybe Phelps wants to be "persecuted" for his faith, a strange psychology that says the more people hate you, the more correct you must be (I have heard other Calvy preachers, too, brag when their preaching drives people away)



I think this is such an interesting phenomenon. When I was in college, I had a conversation with a girl about Christianity and religion in which I probably spoke too harshly. Afterward, I was reflecting on the conversation and talked to a friend about it, noting that I needed to work on incorporating a little more grace into my conversations. I commented that I was concerned that the girl to whom I had spoken wouldn't want to have a future conversation, because of the way I had spoken. My friend's response was, "Well, if she hates you now, than you know you did it right." I thought she was joking, but she was absolutely serious. I'm not sure I understand why people think that this is a good barometer of one's "godliness."


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## py3ak (Apr 29, 2009)

Courage involves a willingness to offend, _if that is necessary for the sake of the truth_. Some people get confused and think that a _willingness to offend_ can be equated with courage. But being a jerk doesn't mean you're brave - just inconsiderate.


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## py3ak (Apr 29, 2009)

calgal said:


> 1. The kids were well behaved, middle class (sort of) and those families rarely were investigated for abuse.
> 2. The mandatory reporting laws were not around back then.
> As for whether there is abuse in our churches, there very likely is and from the least likely sources.



I don't think the social status of the family is really relevant for that sort of _pseudo-religious_ abuse. Rich or poor, educated or not, if your self-righteousness as the man of God is such that violence is an acceptable method of "ruling your own household" that's going to overpower other factors.

One point in the profile would probably be obsessiveness: the article does reveal Fred Phelps as a _focussed_, indeed at times insanely so, individual. Mix obsessiveness with some legalism and an uncontrolled temper, and your Molotov cocktail is coming right up.


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## Pergamum (Apr 29, 2009)

py3ak said:


> Courage involves a willingness to offend, _if that is necessary for the sake of the truth_. Some people get confused and think that a _willingness to offend_ can be equated with courage. But being a jerk doesn't mean you're brave - just inconsiderate.



Well put.


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