# Redeemer Seminary Changes



## bushums

Does anyone know what is going on over at Redeemer in Dallas? I had contacted their admissions office a couple months ago and, after a long silence, just got an email from the interim president referencing some internal disagreements and a bunch of changes in staff.

I ask because they are on my short list (well, maybe my medium-sized list) for seminary options in the next year and I'm not sure I want move my family out of state to go to a seminary that is imploding.


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## Romans922

Take them off of your short list NOW.


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## NaphtaliPress

What's going on?


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## Romans922

Well this is Redeemer Seminary's take on it all. http://theaquilareport.com/a-messag...minary-board-of-trustees-executive-committee/ There was a post out there critiquing the seminary in early march that has been taken down. 

Needless to say, a few faculty and 3-4 board members resigned over what I would call 'seeming bad leadership from the top' (seminary president) and what some may call a power trip. That's what has been said about it.


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## Edward

What little I have gleaned would, at this point, probably fall into the category of gossip. I'd refer you to the official statement of the seminary. 

A Message from the Redeemer Seminary Board of Trustees Executive Committee

I haven't had a chance to talk to anyone yet who knows the score and is in a position to talk. I do know that an anonymous letter was sent about March 2, there were some special called board meetings, and that there were resignations both by staff and board members. 

With anything like this, there is always a bit of tension between the expressed area of contention, and the real underlying issues. May send you a PM. 



Romans922 said:


> Take them off of your short list NOW.



Certainly, it would not be a good choice for someone that was TR or leaning that way.


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## Romans922

Nope, there are better seminaries that aren't going through internal conflict.


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## PhillipJLee

Certainly biased response here but I highly recommend RTS  Although, I'm sure it's already on your list!


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## Andres

This is just one of many reasons why seminaries should be under the authority of an actual church/denomination.


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## Romans922

That can be dangerous too. Seminaries are known to go liberal first, pumping out ministers who are liberal, and eventually turn denominations. 

Examples: Princeton, Union, and more modern day ones.....


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## Wayne

This was posted today on The Aquila Report:

A New Way Forward for Redeemer Seminary in Dallas


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## arapahoepark

Romans922 said:


> That can be dangerous too. Seminaries are known to go liberal first, pumping out ministers who are liberal, and eventually turn denominations.
> 
> Examples: Princeton, Union, and more modern day ones.....


I think his idea of it being under a denomination is to curb those tendancies.....

Anyway, here is this: A New Way Forward for Redeemer Seminary in Dallas


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## bushums

Thanks allot for your responses. The article "A New Way Forward for Redeemer Seminary in Dallas" is what I got from the admissions office yesterday but had no context for. Reading the article from March was really helpful in understanding where they are at.

There are other reasons they were at the bottom of the short list, but the general uncertainty around the current conflict definitely takes them out of the running. I really love the vision they seem to have for investing in the spiritual health of their students and raising up church planters and will pray that God brings unity and relational restoration to the faculty and staff.


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## Romans922

Go to GPTS. Their investing in the spiritual health of their students can't be compared to other seminaries. They go above and beyond and employ the old princeton model.

At RTS, I believe I went over (was invited) to my professor's home 1 time (I'm sure some others were/are being invited more). At GPTS you will have ample time in their homes, with their families, and be provided a good church home as well. Included will be ample opportunities to test your gifts at preaching in local churches. And the education itself is top of the line.


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## bushums

PhillipJLee said:


> Certainly biased response here but I highly recommend RTS  Although, I'm sure it's already on your list!



It is! Right now the decision is really between Southern and RTS-Orlando. Since I cant start full-time until at least next year I'm planning on doing some first year courses with Southern online that I can transfer to RTS if I decide to go with their program in the end.


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## bushums

Romans922 said:


> Go to GPTS. Their investing in the spiritual health of their students can't be compared to other seminaries. They go above and beyond and employ the old princeton model.



Thanks for the advice. I hadn't look at GPTS before, so I'll have to check them out.


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## Romans922

GPTS has online courses as well (which are actually more of a live interaction with the actual class/professor in your home from your PC) and cheaper than RTS or Southern.


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## SolamVeritatem

Romans922 said:


> Go to GPTS. Their investing in the spiritual health of their students can't be compared to other seminaries. They go above and beyond and employ the old princeton model.
> 
> At RTS, I believe I went over (was invited) to my professor's home 1 time (I'm sure some others were/are being invited more). At GPTS you will have ample time in their homes, with their families, and be provided a good church home as well. Included will be ample opportunities to test your gifts at preaching in local churches. And the education itself is top of the line.



Elder Barnes,

I say yes and amen to the above in all respects. I had a chance to experience a taste of this when I attended the Spring Theology Conference last year. All of the professors have pastoral hearts, and the preaching was phenomenal. 

However, I think there may only be two areas of consideration for David. One is location and the other is accreditation. GPTS seems to be roughly 10 hours or so from Pembroke Pines (while Orlando is estimated at 3hrs by comparison), and both Southern and RTS-O are ATS accredited. These things may not be an issue at all for David, as I think GPTS would be an excellent choice otherwise. I just thought I would add it for informational purposes. 

In Him,

Craig


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## Romans922

Location doesn't seem to be an issue, at least not a great one if he is considering Southern. Accredidation is really only that important if one is going to pursue PhD level academics. But I know many GPTS grads who have gone on and gotten PhDs with no problem...

On their website they state why they are not accredited and it seems to make sense. https://www.gpts.edu/academics/admin.php As a graduate of RTS, who has accredidation, I saw the struggle of trying to teach what they want to teach and yet the give/pull of working with accreditors (spelling?) to make them appeased.

Their academics are not loose by any means and one will find more rigorous than most reformed seminaries. And they are a charter member of The Association of Reformed Theological Seminaries.


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## SolamVeritatem

Elder Barnes,

My apologies, I should have been more clear. 

I should have said location would only be an issue if his choices came down to RTS-O vs. GPTS should he want a school that was much closer to where he lived, worked and worshipped. 

I'm in agreement with you on the other aspects. I'm just saying that accreditation might mean more to some than others for various reasons. I sat in on several classes, so I know that the academics are top-notch. My comment about accreditation wasn't meant as a stab at their challenging and very rigorous academic standards by any means. 

For what it's worth, I think ARTS is great as well, but even PRTS--- a solidly confessional school that we know and love here at the PB---was not opposed to obtaining ATS accreditation.

https://prts.edu/about-prts/accreditation/

Again, I'm not sure how this will change how they are able to unabashedly teach the whole counsel of scripture and theological instruction at the school. I'm just saying that it carries a higher level of importance for some. 

In Him,

Craig


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## bushums

Romans922 said:


> Location doesn't seem to be an issue, at least not a great one if he is considering Southern.



Location has actually been one of the more challenging points for me since I have three kids, family in town and am really well connected with my church. If I can avoid relocating that would be a huge plus. Orlando is not too terrible since I grew up there and still have lots of connections to the city, but it would take some convincing for me to commit to moving to Louisville for seminary when there are much closer schools. The only reason I'm starting online with Southern is because I get the Baptist discount and they offer a fully accredited online degree so I have the best chance of transferring the credits elsewhere if I do decide to do RTS (or now, perhaps, GPTS) and I have the option to do the whole degree online if I need to.



Romans922 said:


> Accredidation is really only that important if one is going to pursue PhD level academics.



I don't plan on doing PhD work, but might like to get my DMin someday. Would an unaccredited MDiv be a barrier for that, or would a congregation look at it differently then one with accreditation?


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## arapahoepark

Romans922 said:


> On their website they state why they are not accredited and it seems to make sense. https://www.gpts.edu/academics/admin.php As a graduate of RTS, who has accredidation, I saw the struggle of trying to teach what they want to teach and yet the give/pull of working with accreditors (spelling?) to make them appeased.


Mind fleshing this out some?


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## Romans922

I would assume, though you could ask Dr. Pipa (PM for his email, he is the President of GPTS), that if it is not difficult for those going for PhD elsewhere, to get a DMin elsewhere would be fairly simple. I'm pretty sure RTS would take it as well as Southern, but Dr. Pipa would know specifically these answers.

And yes, President of GPTS will talk to you personally.  I know him personally and he is a good friend.


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## SolamVeritatem

bushums said:


> Would an unaccredited MDiv be a barrier for that, or would a congregation look at it differently then one with accreditation?



David,

In addition to Pastor Barnes' sound response already given, let me direct you to some other threads that might be helpful.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f55/accreditation-how-much-does-matter-why-25199/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f55/observation-accreditation-orthodoxy-6544/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f55/seminary-accreditation-58004/

Some lengthy reading, but if you can plow through it you might find some nuggets that will prove useful. 

In Him,

Craig


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## Edward

Andres said:


> This is just one of many reasons why seminaries should be under the authority of an actual church


Well, while legally it isn't, functionally it pretty much is.


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## DMcFadden

As tempting as online education is in this digital age, there are some significant downsides. Seminary is about informing the student, certainly. But it is also about forming you into a minister. I have looked favorably on distance learning + intentional mentoring as a substitute for those who cannot afford seminary. However, since few churches have established the infrastructure for this kind of intentional mentoring to date, an education in this decade may need to default to the traditional model. If someone would create a model using inexpensive digital options PLUS VERY INTENTIONAL mentoring and apprenticeship, that might give the old brick and mortar places a run for their money. But, until then . . .

Also, if you plan on spending the $$$ for a traditional education, make sure that the profs are CAPABLE of forming you into a pastor. Many people race through college to seminary to terminal degree and a seminary teaching berth with a scant experience in pastoral ministry. If all you want is content, you can get that on the internet. If you want to become a pastor, select a school that excels in creating them.


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## bushums

DMcFadden said:


> If someone would create a model using inexpensive digital options PLUS VERY INTENTIONAL mentoring and apprenticeship, that might give the old brick and mortar places a run for their money.



Thanks for the advice. I have slowly come to this conclusion myself. The only reason I can see that I would do the whole degree online would be if I was working as an intern in my church while receiving significant mentorship and oversight.



DMcFadden said:


> If you want to become a pastor, select a school that excels in creating them.



Perhaps this is a question for a separate thread, but how do you figure out which schools are good at making pastors?


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## Romans922

arap said:


> Mind fleshing this out some?



RTS had to work to make their classes/education fit in the box of the accreditors. So it wasn't exactly what they wanted.


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## Romans922

Schools don't make Pastors, God does. However there are some seminaries that are more apt to give a better education to one who is going to be a pastor compared to one who wants to be a teacher. Ask people's opinions on where they went if it was the best seminary for teaching one who believed he was called to be a pastor.


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## DMcFadden

bushums said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone would create a model using inexpensive digital options PLUS VERY INTENTIONAL mentoring and apprenticeship, that might give the old brick and mortar places a run for their money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I have slowly come to this conclusion myself. The only reason I can see that I would do the whole degree online would be if I was working as an intern in my church while receiving significant mentorship and oversight.
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to become a pastor, select a school that excels in creating them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is a question for a separate thread, but how do you figure out which schools are good at making pastors?
Click to expand...


1. Interview graduates of seminaries, particularly pastors you view as exceptionally competent in ministry. Ask them to evaluate the school they attended and where they would go if they had it to do over again.
2 Visit the campuses of a few of your choices. Sit in classes, interview students. If possible, get into conversations with profs. Ask them how they see their teaching preparing men for ministry.
3. I am one of those who is a also a fan of GPTS. From what you can see from outside, they take formation of pastors very seriously.
4. Recognize that the school you attend will leave an imprint upon you. It will not only open (and close) doors of opportunity to you in the future; it will also shape the kind of minister you become. Southern may be cheaper for tuition due to the discount, but it could make some of your denominational choices more difficult, depending on your polity.
5. Most people emerge from seminary with a kind of instinctive loyalty to the place that trained them (I may be an exception in that rebelling against my seminary alma mater for its liberalism has been one of my tropes for nearly four decades). Expect that if you attend a paedo baptist school, you will probably come out that way; if you attend a credo baptist school, you will probably lean in that direction.


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## Andres

bushums said:


> Right now the decision is really between Southern and RTS-Orlando.



You realize there is a significant difference between a Baptist seminary and a Presbyterian seminary? Your profile doesnt have any info about you, so are you a Baptist or a Presbyterian? If you want to be a pastor, I think it's important to attend a seminary most in-line with the denomination you desire to hold credentials with.


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## SolamVeritatem

bushums said:


> The only reason I'm starting online with Southern is because I get the Baptist discount



Andres,

I'm assuming from the above quote that David is Baptist. 

I would assume Baptists are welcome at RTS-O, no?

In Him,

Craig


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## arapahoepark

SolamVeritatem said:


> bushums said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I'm starting online with Southern is because I get the Baptist discount
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andres,
> 
> I'm assuming from the above quote that David is Baptist.
> 
> I would assume Baptists are welcome at RTS-O, no?
> 
> In Him,
> 
> Craig
Click to expand...


Yes,
Correct me if I am wrong but, I believe Orlando has some Reformed Baptist thing going named after Roger Nicole....


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## Edward

arap said:


> I believe Orlando has some Reformed Baptist thing going named after Roger Nicole



The Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies
The Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies at Reformed Theological Seminary Orlando Introduction


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## bushums

SolamVeritatem said:


> I'm assuming from the above quote that David is Baptist.
> 
> I would assume Baptists are welcome at RTS-O, no?



I actually am a baptist! Which is why Southern is such a great option. RTS-O is actually very baptist friendly; they have an institute for baptist studies and you can even get an MDiv with an emphasis in baptist studies. The real reason RTS is on the map for me is how close it is to home, and the option to do a dual MDiv/DMin.


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## DMcFadden

David,

Just be sure that your branch of the Baptist family is accepting of a M.Div. from RTS. What school you go to can open or close doors in your circle of churches.

For instance, an acquaintance had a ThM from Dallas Seminary and had a very difficult time with placement in a mainline denomination. Some denominations will not accept a person at all unless he attends one of their approved schools. Most Baptists are opportunistic enough to approve of a degree selection because it was cheaper or more convenient, regardless of denominational label. Still, it is worth asking denominational leaders if they have any issues with your ultimate choice.


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## TylerRay

DMcFadden said:


> If someone would create a model using inexpensive digital options PLUS VERY INTENTIONAL mentoring and apprenticeship, that might give the old brick and mortar places a run for their money.



Wouldn't The Free Church Seminary and Whitefield Theological Seminary meet these criteria?


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## SolaScriptura

Romans922 said:


> At RTS, I believe I went over (was invited) to my professor's home 1 time (I'm sure some others were/are being invited more). At GPTS you will have ample time in their homes, with their families, and be provided a good church home as well.



Um, at the risk of sounding like a meanie...

You say that at GPTS he'd have "ample time in their homes," etc. You also say that at RTS you're "sure" others were invited to the professor's home more than you - since you were only invited once. Um, could it be that it isn't an institutional problem, but rather a reflection of a more personal issue? (i.e., that for whatever reason the professor didn't like having you in his home?)

Also, this is probably the weakest reason I've heard for going to a seminary - you'll get to hang out in their homes, with their families, and be "provided" a good church... What is this, a nanny state?
Seriously, I go to seminary to learn academic things from the faculty. If you want to hang out in homes and be with good Christian families - which I fully support - then establish a solid relationship with one's pastor or elders.


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## TylerRay

bushums said:


> It is! Right now the decision is really between Southern and RTS-Orlando. Since I cant start full-time until at least next year I'm planning on doing some first year courses with Southern online that I can transfer to RTS if I decide to go with their program in the end.



See this thread for opinions about RTS Orlando. I wouldn't recommend it, primarily because of their Systematic Theology professor's hostility toward important distinctives of Reformed faith.


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## Romans922

SolaScriptura said:


> Um, at the risk of sounding like a meanie...



I was meaning today it may be different compared to when I went 10 years ago. 

And yes of course one goes to seminary to learn academics. But positives at both of these seminaries are the many (RTS) and most if not all (GPTS) of the professors are Pastors. They are not just PhD Professors (that they are) but they are also Pastors who have pastored churches. There is much to learn from such men and being close to them is a great blessing. 

I was not speaking of me vs other students at the time I was at RTS. But me and others at (2005-2008 time frame) compared to what may be now today.


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## DMcFadden

Ben,

No, we do not need a nanny state seminary. But, the purpose of seminary is the formation of pastors. If all you want is graduate courses in Bible and theology, go to a grad school.

In my seminary orientation one professor warned us that he was a busy scholar and did not suffer fools gladly. He had posted office hours so that anyone with ACADEMIC questions about the OT could come and get their questions answered. He was not there for us to waste his time with our personal problems. For that, we should see a therapist. Another prof announced that we were in school to learn academics. He did not look favorably on students who were late on papers due to conflicting church commitments. We were in school to learn Bible and theology; we had the rest of our lives to do ministry. A third scholar was famous for his withering humiliation of students in class who asked "stupid" questions (he was British, but does the term "Prussian martinet" mean anything?). In my M.Div., I think that only two teachers even knew my name and one of them had been my prof in college and transferred to the seminary (BTW, I was a very good student who participated in class a lot). In fairness, several profs were fairly pastoral, but that was an exception.

Wrenching a verse out of context a bit (but the principle is true in this setting as well): "when a man is fully taught, he will be like his teacher." We were and it was. That is NOT the purpose of seminary. Unless a brick and mortar seminary excels at the formation of pastors, why not do it all online?


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## Edward

If a Presbyterian is TR, the list of seminaries that they consider should look a bit different than the list of seminaries considered by someone who is BR. 

Depending on what sees as one call going in (which may change over time) accredited vs non-accredited may or may not be a significant factor. 

The list for reformed Baptists is going to look a good bit different than the list for Presbyterians. 

And finally, it probably isn't particularly helpful to someone asking questions to always recommend a single seminary, (or even the same two seminaries) to everyone who inquires. 

My


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## Edward

DMcFadden said:


> Unless a brick and mortar seminary excels at the formation of pastors, why not do it all online?



With homiletic, I would think some classroom exercises might be good to supplement the theory. 

But I do agree that the current delivery system for education (not just seminary) is not sustainable.


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## SolamVeritatem

Edward said:


> And finally, it probably isn't particularly helpful to someone asking questions to always recommend a single seminary, (or even the same two seminaries) to everyone who inquires.


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## DMcFadden

Edward said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless a brick and mortar seminary excels at the formation of pastors, why not do it all online?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With homiletic, I would think some classroom exercises might be good to supplement the theory.
> 
> But I do agree that the current delivery system for education (not just seminary) is not sustainable.
Click to expand...


Not to be misunderstood, I AGREE that pastoral formation requires face-to-face shaping, and not just in the technique of preaching. But, if all you want is the delivery of academic content, without the pastoral and professional training and such, a grad school (or online) would suffice. Hence, *pastoral* candidates should seek out a school that delivers top-notch academics AND excels at pastoral formation.


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## SolaScriptura

DMcFadden said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless a brick and mortar seminary excels at the formation of pastors, why not do it all online?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With homiletic, I would think some classroom exercises might be good to supplement the theory.
> 
> But I do agree that the current delivery system for education (not just seminary) is not sustainable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to be misunderstood, I AGREE that pastoral formation requires face-to-face shaping, and not just in the technique of preaching. But, if all you want is the delivery of academic content, without the pastoral and professional training and such, a grad school (or online) would suffice. Hence, *pastoral* candidates should seek out a school that delivers top-notch academics AND excels at pastoral formation.
Click to expand...


I disagree that if "all" one wants is academics then one can do it sufficiently online. A significant portion of one's academic formation comes by way of interaction.


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## DMcFadden

Ben,

Perhaps my point was still unclear and muddled. Start reading at the "hence." 

Pastors need PASTORAL formation, not mere academic competence. Pastoral formation is not likely to occur in places that are not . . . well . . . "pastoral." If a fellow wants to be a pastor, he will need more than competent PhDs. You need PASTORS who will make the formation of the future generation of pastors more than an academic exercise. A place that will focus on those relational aspects of ministerial education will be more valuable than places that ONLY deal with the academics.


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## rpeters

Dennis, 
Great points! I do think the current model which uses more of assembly line model is just not getting the job done. But if were all honest the future of theological education is a uncertain one at best. there are those who are so sold on the brick and mortar that they cannot see their flaws and others who want something new that may cause just as much damage if not more then the brick and mortar. One thing were trying to do is use a more blended format. We see this has the benefits of both online and sight while limiting the downfall of each. Class is seen more like a lab and every student is mentored by their pastor. The board which is comprised of pastors determine what gets put in the curriculum not some full time faculty personnel.


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