# Calvinism and Spiritual Pride



## steadfast7 (Nov 16, 2011)

I've been "called out" on what appears to some of my friends as being spiritual pride, hypercriticalness, and a judgmental attitude because of my Reformed way of thinking. I attend a church here in Seoul that is not Reformed by any means - quite the opposite. My views and my approach at sharing my perspective and inviting discussion is rubbing people the wrong way. Others, however, have benefited from my explaining the doctrines of grace with them, or challenging them to another interpretation as what was presented on the pulpit.

anyone else have similar experiences, or advice?


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## Weston Stoler (Nov 16, 2011)

Is their not another church you can attend in a 50 mile radius?

---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

I found most of my spiritual pride left when I went to a PCA church and realized even the younger men were light years ahead of me.


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## Gforce9 (Nov 16, 2011)

I heard Dr. J. Ligon Duncan comment that anyone who knows anything about doctrine comes across as arrogant because most folks don't know very much, if anything. He also said it was incumbent upon us to adorn the DoG (presumably as they cause the most conflict) with gentleness, kindness, and humility. I believe he is correct on both counts. What is troubling about this generation of churchgoers, is the allergy to the polemic and to sound doctrine.


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## steadfast7 (Nov 17, 2011)

I could leave and go to another church, but are there other options that involve engaging people as well as possibly working on my own pride, if that is fact there? 

Are Calvinists especially prone to this folly?


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## steadfast7 (Nov 17, 2011)

Good words Josh. Thanks.


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## Pergamum (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis, are you hoping to be sent back into the mission field from such a church?


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## jogri17 (Nov 17, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Are Calvinists especially prone to this folly?



maybe, maybe not. If you look at the KJV only folks they seem pretty arrogant to me especially dismissing textual criticism as liberalism. Also, the revivalist/fundamentalist who looks down upon those who dance, drink in moderation, or read Harry Potter come accross the same way in my mind. 

When I talk to those who use only modern contemporary music in worship they are quite polemic against hymns let alone Psalms as being not from the heart, etc... 

That being said, it is rude and a bit obnoxious in my mind when Calvinists go around and try to convince people about the doctrines of grace especially those older in the faith. Chances are they have heard it before from a young guy, and if they havn't they just don't care. Even I get annoyed with some young calvinists obsessing over the ''tulip'' and wanting nothing more than to try to convince others.


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## Unoriginalname (Nov 17, 2011)

Many people I have run into seem to think that knowing what you are talking about is something bad. It seems that a lot of times when people get into disagreements in church the best way to win is to call the other arrogant. I think Joshua is right, the best course of action when dealing with people in church is to use some discernment to see if they truely are insulted or merely feigning it.


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## CharlieJ (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis, from thousands of miles away, I can't speak to your spiritual state. I do have a generally good impression of you. I had a similar experience, since for a while I was Calvinist and covenantal in the midst of an Arminian and dispensational group. Now, I'm in a Catholic university. My advice is to take extra care not to be branded the "Calvinist" guy. That is, don't drive all the conversations toward the issue where you disagree. If you establish your reputation as a careful reader and teacher of Scripture, as a faithful practitioner of Christian virtue, and as someone who cares for the lost and the marginalized in your community, then people will listen to just about anything you have to say. In other words,, people will begin to accept your "weird" belief if they like the rest of the package.

In one sense, that's an impossible burden to put on anyone. It's not fair to make you the representative for Calvinism among those people. Yet you are. I trust that Christ will sustain you and give you a humble spirit in the many times that you fail. Sometimes godly repentance from sin is as good a testimony as not stumbling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## steadfast7 (Nov 17, 2011)

Without a doubt, we are living in Barthian, anti intellectual and existential age. Propositional truth is not in vogue. Calvinism has been demonized for it's lack of experiential vigor. Evangelicalism more concerned with harmony than correctness. These are our times.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Nov 17, 2011)

Let me share my experiences with this sort of thing. 

Several years ago I entered a program called Teen Challenge, which is a drug rehab ran by The Assemblies of God, but supported by many denominations. While I was in the program the induction center as they call it was reformed. The program sends you to the induction center first, then sends you to the 2nd phase when all induction centers are merged into one location. My induction center was located in Pittsburgh, but there are centers in Rochester, NYC, Buffalo, Philly, Virgina, NC ect.. All of the inductee's are sent to central PA after you have been in the porgram for 4 months. 

Because my induction center was predominately reformed we clashed a lot with other induction centers. I had the same experiences as you. Some people thought we were arogant, while others accepted what we claimed to be truth. I believe its three things:

1.) The Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the person you are talking to
2.) The way you present the information. If you present in a way that says, "I am right and you are wrong" it rubs people the wrong way. 
3.) The way your personality works with the individual you are presenting to. 

When I talk to people I don't bring to light that I am reformed. The reason is because when you say I am reformed, and this is what I believe, makes it sound like you have secret knowledge. Plus being a "Calvanist" has a bad rap as it is. I would suggest providing your view while using scripture to support it. When people argue your view just respond with questions with how they came to that conclusion, and ask them how it works with the scriptures you just introduced. 

There is a big difference between discussing and arguing. However, I do not know you so I am not sure how you react. But that is what helped me out.


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## JM (Nov 17, 2011)

This...



> I found most of my spiritual pride left when I went to a PCA church and realized even the younger men were light years ahead of me.



and this.



> Often, Dennis, people choose to be offended where it need not be a cause of offense.


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## Derick Dickens (Nov 17, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> I've been "called out" on what appears to some of my friends as being spiritual pride, hypercriticalness, and a judgmental attitude because of my Reformed way of thinking. I attend a church here in Seoul that is not Reformed by any means - quite the opposite. My views and my approach at sharing my perspective and inviting discussion is rubbing people the wrong way. Others, however, have benefited from my explaining the doctrines of grace with them, or challenging them to another interpretation as what was presented on the pulpit.
> 
> anyone else have similar experiences, or advice?



The battle of spiritual pride is rooted deeply in Calvinism and rooted deeply in my own walk. Great knowledge is often accompanied with a strong burden towards pride and should be battled with as much vigor as we battle false doctrine. 

Granted, sometimes knowledge comes across as arrogant when there is not arrogance; however, our responsibility in communicating truth should be rooted in communicating truth lovingly, humbly, and boldly. 

I love the Doctrines of Grace! Unfortunately, I have often communicated the doctrines in ways that have taken away their glory.


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## Romans922 (Nov 17, 2011)

Are you living in Seoul Korea? If so, I can help get you to a reformed congregation (possibly). Message me (I don't want to take away from the issue of pride...).


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## nicnap (Nov 17, 2011)

Quote Originally Posted by CharlieJ View Post
In other words,, people will begin to accept your "weird" belief if they like the rest of the package.
I heartily concur with Charlie here. Winsomeness goes a long long way.

I concur with Joshua's concurrence.


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## seajayrice (Nov 17, 2011)

Quotes from Spurgeon on Calvinism: 

On Calvinism

It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170)

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, p. 164-165)

I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 168)

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124)

I do not ask whether you believe Calvinism. It is possible that you do not. But I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter heaven. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 92)

Calvinism is the Gospel. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 50)

Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298)

I am not a Calvinist by choice, but because I cannot help it. (Sermons, Vol. 18, p. 692)


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## arielann81 (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis I'm in the same boat as you, however I have the advantage of at least knowing my Pastor believes in the Doctrines of Grace. He doesn't use outright language of Tulip when preaching however. This last Monday night I went to a home group and the leader is a free-willer. I discovered this when I shared about being chosen by God. Of course people had questions and I would answer and then the leader would rebuttal. My husband gave a bit of a disclaimer for me since I'm pretty passionate and in the end the Leader actually apologized to me. I don't think he wanted the other members to see him being outright divisive. He asked me if I "felt squashed?" I said no. In fact I was encouraged that there was a discussion at all. I think the leader may also have said something due to my husbands comment that "she is not going to come off it." lol And I don't think anyone would like to make my husband upset by disagreeing with me to openly. Plus, the leader is our worship leader and my husband is the principle drummer for our congregation.

I think we should share enough to make people hungry. Perhaps if we introduce some controversy then people will go home and think about it and ask questions themselves. In the end it is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth or not in someone's heart. Our job is to love people, even when its hard.

I'm actually finding benefit in the responses to this tread and am glad you stared it. It's been interesting to see the types of questions that arise.

For example someone asked me about the book "love wins" and their question was: "is this book an example of what you are talking about?" That God chooses and so everyone will be saved because that is his choice? Of course my response was that I have strong opinions about that book and that is not what it means to believe in reformed theology. Of course then this brought up the question by the leader over limited atonement and he stopped me before I could answer that one since he said we were rabbit trailing. Examples of Jonah and Rahab came up. All within a meeting centered around the second part of James 2. It was an interesting night.


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## py3ak (Nov 17, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Calvinism has been demonized for it's lack of experiential vigor.



_Supposed_ lack of experiential vigor. It can actually be a quite effective introduction to doctrinal Calvinism, to bring the comfort of those truths into conversations relating to Christian experience. In the letters of spiritual counsel from our tradition, and in the experiential uses of Puritan sermons, for instance, there is a great mine of resources that are useful along those lines. The Scriptures give comfort (Romans 15:4), and comfort is something that Christians want. Present the faithful exposition of Scripture that is Calvinism in the context of their comfort, and people are often willing to listen.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Nov 17, 2011)

Gforce9 said:


> I heard Dr. J. Ligon Duncan comment that anyone who knows anything about doctrine comes across as arrogant because most folks don't know very much, if anything. He also said it was incumbent upon us to adorn the DoG (presumably as they cause the most conflict) with gentleness, kindness, and humility. I believe he is correct on both counts. What is troubling about this generation of churchgoers, is the allergy to the polemic and to sound doctrine.



I just spent 10 minutes trying to say essentially this, and gave up, as this is more concise than I could put it. I think that today, anyone who has a strong opinion about doctrine, no matter how winsome they may be in presenting their opinions, runs a risk of being labled arrogant/elitist/proud. It is the drive to eccuminism, run amok.


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## Peairtach (Nov 17, 2011)

It's only of God's grace that we are Calvinists, but it's other believers' responsibility for not being Calvinists.


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## elnwood (Nov 17, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> I've been "called out" on what appears to some of my friends as being spiritual pride, hypercriticalness, and a judgmental attitude because of my Reformed way of thinking. I attend a church here in Seoul that is not Reformed by any means - quite the opposite. My views and my approach at sharing my perspective and inviting discussion is rubbing people the wrong way. Others, however, have benefited from my explaining the doctrines of grace with them, or challenging them to another interpretation as what was presented on the pulpit.
> 
> anyone else have similar experiences, or advice?



You'd have to be more specific about "your approach at sharing your perspective and inviting discussion" for me to comment on its relation to "spiritual pride, hypercriticalness, and a judgmental attitude." Are you critiquing or criticizing the leaders, or other people at the church, for their theology and/or practice? If so, are you doing in it in a way that also shows respect and appreciation for them? I would be slow to criticize a pastor's sermon to the other members of his flock. It can "sow discord among brethren" and be disrespectful of the elder.


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## jwithnell (Nov 17, 2011)

If you know me, you know I can be very straight-forward. However, one time I basically shut up for two years: While in Alaska, an independent Baptist congregation was the only local church that accepted the authority of the scriptures. I did not think it was my place, particularly as a woman, to try to challenge the church leadership. Debating what had been preached seemed out of line. If questioned, I'd answer directly and enjoyed many wonderful hikes/talks with one or two friends. Others began to catch on to my theology and would jibe me occasionally, but I didn't say much.


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## Zach (Nov 17, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Without a doubt, we are living in Barthian, anti intellectual and existential age. Propositional truth is not in vogue. Calvinism has been demonized for it's lack of experiential vigor. Evangelicalism more concerned with harmony than correctness. These are our times.



I think this is the sad truth.


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## steadfast7 (Nov 17, 2011)

elnwood said:


> You'd have to be more specific about "your approach at sharing your perspective and inviting discussion" for me to comment on its relation to "spiritual pride, hypercriticalness, and a judgmental attitude." Are you critiquing or criticizing the leaders, or other people at the church, for their theology and/or practice? If so, are you doing in it in a way that also shows respect and appreciation for them? I would be slow to criticize a pastor's sermon to the other members of his flock. It can "sow discord among brethren" and be disrespectful of the elder.



I think you've hit it on the head as to my own personal fault in all of this. The preaching at my church is quite atrocious. Not only is it decidedly Arminian, one can see the text being twisted right before one's eyes. For example, last week, he preached on Jesus appearing to Thomas. His main point: Thomas proclaimed "My Lord and my God" because of Jesus' love in appearing to him after the resurrection, NOT because (and this is an emphatic NOT) Jesus had given Thomas tangible evidence of being alive. 

So, when asked, "what did you think of the sermon?" I'm not sure what else to utter except a critique. I've been thinking more and more that the best thing to do if I'm not able to hold my tongue is simply to change church. This might be an act of sanctification. thoughts?


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## Pergamum (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis, why are you there? 


Just any old church will not do as a sending base if you want to return to the mission field. You need to be uniting with solid folks who understand and willl support you.


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## FedByRavens (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm in the same predicament you are brother. And I'm stuck here. I hear about this "spiritual pride" all of the time. It seems like the more i conform to the bible, the more unpopular I get, even among church members. I go to a very small church, so small that open discussion is inevitable. I'll hear different teachers speak of things like "the age of accountability" or things pertaining to salvation and they will be so wrong that it is demeaning to God or His word, and I'll try to take them to the bible and I'm always treated like a prideful radical. However, having a lot of biblical knowledge around such unbiblical people can stimulate you into sin. It's happened that way with me. It starts out in frustration with them, which leads to aggravation, which leads to pride. Paul Washer speaks about that here.... Dangers Facing the Young and Reformed by Paul Washer | illbehonest.com However, i think you should find a biblical church if possible.


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## elnwood (Nov 18, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> So, when asked, "what did you think of the sermon?" I'm not sure what else to utter except a critique. I've been thinking more and more that the best thing to do if I'm not able to hold my tongue is simply to change church. This might be an act of sanctification. thoughts?



Hey Dennis,

Unless there is another VERY compelling reason for you to stay at the church (and I can think of a few), I would go elsewhere. If you cannot in good conscience respect your elders, which is a Biblical command, it's a serious issue, to say nothing of your own spiritual health.


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## steadfast7 (Nov 18, 2011)

Don and Perg, I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I believe there is one reformed congregation in Seoul, however I think they are small, and won't be the best sending/supporting launch pad for missions, but anything's possible.


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## arielann81 (Nov 18, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Don and Perg, I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I believe there is one reformed congregation in Seoul, however I think they are small, and won't be the best sending/supporting launch pad for missions, but anything's possible.



Just remember that no matter how small a church may seem, God will provide for your needs and if He has called you to missions the resources will be there.


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## Pergamum (Nov 18, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Don and Perg, I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I believe there is one reformed congregation in Seoul, however I think they are small, and won't be the best sending/supporting launch pad for missions, but anything's possible.



A sending church need not even give the majority of your funding. The main thing is mentoring, moral support, advocacy on your behalf, etc.

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My sending church gives less than a quarter of what I gather per month but are an anchor to us and give us so much more. 

Smaller churches often appreciate their missionaries more.


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## brandonadams (Nov 21, 2011)

Hi Dennis,

Here's a great quote from Jonathan Edwards:



> Those who are most zealous in the cause of God are the most likely to be targeted as being filled with pride. When any person appears, in any respect, to be noticeably excelling others in his Christian walk, odds are ten to one that it will immediately awaken the jealousy of those about him.
> 
> They will suspect (whether they have good reason or not) that he is very proud of his goodness and that he probably thinks no one as good as he is, so that everything he says and does is observed with this prejudice.
> 
> ...



And here's a great sermon I heard last week at church: Dealing With the Poison of Pride


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## Moireach (Nov 21, 2011)

jogri17 said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> > Are Calvinists especially prone to this folly?
> ...


I'd be careful here to be sure that you're not the one looking down on them. My girlfriend's family don't do these things, they might have a very occasional drink, but it's an incredibly common misconception that people like them look down on Christians who do do them. I think those more liberal are very often the ones who look down on conservatives and not the other way around. I see it *all* the time.
I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying to be careful and keep it in mind.


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