# Beer, wine, and Church fund raising



## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

My wife and I went to our local Greek Orthodox Church’s annual ‘Greek Glendi’ this past weekend.

It’s their yearly shindig and fund-raiser held on the grounds of the Church. 

They had something like a flea market with lots of Greek food and goods for sell. The food was great, the culture was interesting, and the music with the traditional Greek dancing was a lot of fun to watch also.

Now, I’m no fan of Eastern Orthodox “Theology” whatsoever (Don’t get me started on their “Iconography” and Church traditions)

But as I was sitting there, staring at the two Budweiser trucks with draft taps on the side, along with the tables full of Greek wines and beer, for sell, I started thinking…

…”Is it okay for a Church to have a community fund raiser like this?” and if so…

…”Is it acceptable to sell wine and beer at that Church fund-raiser?” 

I know that it’s fine to MODERATLY drink wine and beer, that’s not the issue. Something just doesn’t seem right to me about this, but I can’t put my finger on it. 

So here’s the question: 

Are my old SBC ‘Fundy’ ways of seeing things messing with me, or is there something scripturally wrong with all this? 

Btw..I had a bottle of Greek beer (Mythos brand-with a little unicorn image on the bottle), it paired fantastically with the Greek Salad.


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## Poimen (Feb 12, 2008)

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser as beer. That is a lie.


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

The Mythos was fantastic though. It's a Greek lager.


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## Blue Tick (Feb 12, 2008)

> No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.


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## Stephen (Feb 12, 2008)

joshua said:


> Rev. Kok is right. Selling Budweiser is like selling water. What a ripoff that would be!



 Budweiser beer tastes like water with a little taste added to it, so it is wrong to sell that stuff for profit. Now if you are talking about selling Guiness or a real nice lager, then it is perfectly fine. I think it is deplorable that anyone would drink Bud and try to pass if off as beer.


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## Amazing Grace (Feb 12, 2008)

Poimen said:


> No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.



Exactly. I would not be offended as a believer, but seriously offended as a beer drinker..


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## Stephen (Feb 12, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> Poimen said:
> 
> 
> > No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.
> ...


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## Stephen (Feb 12, 2008)

joshua said:


> Ale! Ale! I like Ales! (repeat x 4 for effect)
> 
> I am in Bud Light, Miller Lite, Budweiser, Coors Light, etc. so on so forth country. It's terrible. Amber Bock is about the only bearable Beer on tap here. There's a new place in town that has New Belgium's _Fat Tire_, though.




I am not familiar with New Belgium, but I would be going to the next town to find a good beer.


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

joshua said:


> Ale! Ale! I like Ales! (repeat x 4 for effect)



I've always been partial to George Killian's Red Ale myself.

So the opinions I'm hearing in this DEEP theological discourse  is:

Community-wide Church Fund-raiser - No problem

Selling REAL beer and wine at said fund-raiser - No Problem


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2008)

No theological problem at all. May cause a cultural problem if you are in North America. However that does not mean we should not do it. As Islam advances in our culture it will be more important for us to openly promote the biblical view of wine, spirits & beer AS A CHURCH, not only as individuals. in my opinion.


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## Stephen (Feb 12, 2008)

Steve, the Greek Orthodox churches know how to put on good events. The food is always fantastic and the events are always fun, especially for the family. I have no objection to a church having an event like this, especially if there is alcohol. I do not think that churches should use these events as fundraisers to raise money for the church. The Scriptures teach that the church and its ministry should be supported by the tithes and offerings of God's people. If a church wants to charge for an event like this to defray the cost of the food and drink that is fine, but not to raise money for its ministry and work. Certainly all forms of gambling and games of chance at church events should be avoided because this is a violation of the eighth commandment.


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

Stephen said:


> Certainly all forms of gambling and games of chance at church events should be avoided because this is a violation of the eighth commandment.



I failed to mention that part. They had a raffle also. $100 per ticket to win a Lexus or other cash prizes. They only had 1900 tickets for sell. We ran the numbers and figured they cleared $100,000 just from the raffle.

But now I'm wondering...is a raffle stealing?

Commandment VIII: “You shall not steal. Ex 20:15 (ESV)


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 12, 2008)

Poimen said:


> No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser as beer. That is a lie.


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## Davidius (Feb 12, 2008)

Seb said:


> Are my old SBC ‘Fundy’ ways of seeing things messing with me[...]



Yep!


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## Herald (Feb 12, 2008)

The dynamic of alcohol being sold at this festival is secondary. We had members of our church suggest fund raisers as a way of meeting our budget. I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world. We can't stop an unbeliever from putting a check into the offering plate but I am completely against soliciting from those who may be enemies of our Lord. I've heard the argument of, "Well Israel plundered the Egyptians before the Exodus.". The only problem with that is a little thing called context.


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world[...]



I have heard that from others before and I have the same 'feeling' but is there any scriptural basis for this? Especially when you are providing goods / services for the money and not just passing the plate for a 'donation'?

Doesn't this fall into the same vein as a car wash for a youth fund-raiser? I know I have my thoughts on it, but where does Scripture side on this?


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## Philbeck (Feb 12, 2008)

You should be appaled by Bud being sold for profit. Budweiser is an abuse of our ability to make beer.


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## Herald (Feb 12, 2008)

Philbeck said:


> You should be appaled by Bud being sold for profit. Budweiser is an abuse of our ability to make beer.





Budweiser is a horrible thing to do to water.


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## Herald (Feb 12, 2008)

Seb said:


> BaptistInCrisis said:
> 
> 
> > I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world[...]
> ...



I think a case could be made that God's covenant people were the only ones required to make sacrifices and bring offerings. Neither were expected from the Gentiles. Paul appealed, commended and chastised churches for their giving, not unbelievers. Phil 4:18, 1 Cor. 16:3, 2 Cor. 9:5 come to mind.


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## KMK (Feb 12, 2008)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Seb said:
> 
> 
> > BaptistInCrisis said:
> ...



I would also add that there are no positive commands in the NT for churches to go out and seek money from the unbeliever to help with the ministry of the word, prayer and mercy to the poor.

I would suspect that the need for 'fundraising' stems from a lack of importance placed on tithing and giving and perhaps an overinflated budget.


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## N. Eshelman (Feb 12, 2008)

A couple of things:

1. What biblical basis would you see this being sinful? 
2. If it was sinful, the fact that you purchased and consumed a beer there makes you guilty as well 

I have no problem with this. I think that the church needs to get beyond some of this extra-biblical piety. It is unhelpful.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 12, 2008)

No ouza???


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 1. What biblical basis would you see this being sinful?
> 2. If it was sinful, the fact that you purchased and consumed a beer there makes you guilty as well
> ...



So you don't a problem with the fund-raiser nor the beverages?

I'll admit my initial knee jerk reaction was against the beer and wine, even though I drink a little myself. I thought what if someone gets drunk and the church makes money from that? (There's that fundy in me) 

But I've concluded in my opinion it's about the same as a glutton over-eating the food and the church profiting from that. It becomes a personal responsibility issue at that point. Jesus didn't sin when he made the wine that I think some of those in attendance probably over-indulged in.


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> No ouza???



They probably had some, but I don't think that's my kind of thing. 

Anise-flavored liqueur just doesn't sound good to me.


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## Amazing Grace (Feb 12, 2008)

Seb said:


> jaybird0827 said:
> 
> 
> > No ouza???
> ...



Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap. If I am feeling fiesty, then the Sambucca comes out


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## PilgrimPastor (Feb 12, 2008)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> The dynamic of alcohol being sold at this festival is secondary. We had members of our church suggest fund raisers as a way of meeting our budget. I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world. We can't stop an unbeliever from putting a check into the offering plate but I am completely against soliciting from those who may be enemies of our Lord. I've heard the argument of, "Well Israel plundered the Egyptians before the Exodus.". The only problem with that is a little thing called context.



I was the Pastor of a church which (unbeknownst to me prior to some time spent with them) had written fund raising (bake sale) money into their budget. At the first bake sale the church had after my moving to serve them I asked the naive question, "what are we raising money for?" They said "your salary!" WOW was I concerned. It is unhealthy on so many levels, Scripturally, community image, etc. when a church abandons the Scriptural teaching to support its ministry from within by way of tithes and offerings. 

I lived for a couple of years in Tarpon Springs, Florida where there is a large Greek population and a large cathedral. Was this festival in Tarpon Springs?


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## Seb (Feb 12, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap.



Coffee as a nightcap? Man, that's hardcore! 




PilgrimPastor said:


> [...]Was this festival in Tarpon Springs?



No, but I've heard of that one. From what I understand that area has a lot of retired Greek sponge divers.

The one we went to was at St Barbara's Greek Orthodox in Sarasota. They had a HUGE turn out over a four day period. There were at least three Greyhound type buses shuttling people back and forth all day to off site parking.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 12, 2008)

I do and I don't have a problem with the idea.

I've attended events like this before. Beautiful Church in Northern VA. The event was more of a "let the community in to see what we're about..." kind of thing. I imagine they probably made a profit on the event but that wasn't the reason for it. I loved the Greek food and music.

I agree with Bill and others that a Church's work ought to be supported by its members. People asking for the "thou shall" or "thou shall not" are asking the wrong questions with regard to the principle. The Church should be taken care of itself from within and there are both preceptive ideas in the OT law as well as the idea of caring for the poor and pastors in the NT.

As to the "outreach" kind of idea, I don't think a Church's members ought to have a problem with inviting people "in the world" to have some fun with them in an extra-Church activity like a picnic. In our OPC in SoCal one year we submitted an article to a local newspaper announcing our Reformation Day party we'd be having. We yearly got dressed up like Puritans or Reformers on Oct 31st and had food and fun together. I even performed a puppet show for the kids. Friends and neighbors from the community were invited to join us. We didn't charge anything for the event but I'm simply expressing that the basic idea of inviting the community to a meal and other kinds of activities is simply a form of hospitality and there's nothing wrong with that basic idea.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 12, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> ...
> Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap. ...


 


A man after my own heart! And nothing like a shot of anisette to chase down the valerian capsules.


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## Herald (Feb 12, 2008)

SemperFideles said:


> I do and I don't have a problem with the idea.
> 
> I've attended events like this before. Beautiful Church in Northern VA. The event was more of a "let the community in to see what we're about..." kind of thing. I imagine they probably made a profit on the event but that wasn't the reason for it. I loved the Greek food and music.
> 
> ...



Rich, I'm glad you added the part about outreach to the community. I support that type of activity. My objection is when activities are used to solicit funds. We have something to GIVE THEM - the gospel!


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## DeaconHardwick (Feb 12, 2008)

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 12, 2008)

DeaconHardwick said:


> There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.





Sure there is _a_ good reason for the use of alcohol.

The Lord's Supper is at least one.

I also think you need to reflect on the motivation for sobriety. Our motivation for righteousness is not "taste not, touch not" but the Gospel. The end of the Law is not reflected in your statement.


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2008)

DeaconHardwick said:


> There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.



Granted, I have just started my second whiskey & soda...so if you would like you can ignore everything else I have to say.

THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS TO DRINK BECAUSE THE WATER HAS BACTERIA! 

It says to drink to make the heart glad. It says to drink because you are celebrating. It says to drink because you are sad. It says to drink to worship God. It says to drink to enjoy Gods blessings. 

Nothing however, that I have ever found, about little paisley shaped creatures swimming in the cistern.

Enough already with the transplant of Muslem ethics into the Church of Jesus Christ. If you were googling "Dar El Islam" and stumbled across the PB you might want to try the back button.

**rant off**

BTW you should join the deacons forum. We are trying to get a conversation going about our calling over there. Welcome. We are always glad to see new members.


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## moral necessity (Feb 12, 2008)

Seb said:


> But I've concluded in my opinion it's about the same as a glutton over-eating the food and the church profiting from that. It becomes a personal responsibility issue at that point. Jesus didn't sin when he made the wine that I think some of those in attendance probably over-indulged in.



I think you found your answer here. It's socially acceptable to overeat, but not to overdrink; yet both are sin. So, why is the one shyed away from while the other is done as often as yard sales? It wouldn't surprise me if more leave events like this with bellies filled with food than with tolerances filled with alcohol. It shows that we often look at what offends culture more than what offends God.

Blessings!


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## JBaldwin (Feb 13, 2008)

KMK said:


> I would also add that there are no positive commands in the NT for churches to go out and seek money from the unbeliever to help with the ministry of the word, prayer and mercy to the poor.
> 
> I would suspect that the need for 'fundraising' stems from a lack of importance placed on tithing and giving and perhaps an overinflated budget.



I would add that need for fundraising also comes fear and lack of faith that God will provide for the needs of the church.


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## Stephen (Feb 13, 2008)

KMK said:


> BaptistInCrisis said:
> 
> 
> > Seb said:
> ...



 Usually Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not teach stewardship or kingdom work, so they usually have to raise money, especially through their casinos and gambling.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 13, 2008)

Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.



DeaconHardwick said:


> There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.


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## Stephen (Feb 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
> 
> Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.
> 
> ...



 We often take the passage out of context that deals with the weaker brother. The weaker brother is not the one who is offended by your drinking alcohol or Jesus would have sinned.


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## Herald (Feb 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
> 
> Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.
> 
> ...



Bob, I think you meant to say Jesus NEVER caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 13, 2008)

No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.



So, it's OK to drink alcohol as long as we're not stumbling?

By the way Re: previous post by Jaybird, it is Ouzo (ούζο), not Ouza, and it is an acquired taste.


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## Herald (Feb 13, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.



"How dry I am. How dry I am. *hic* Nobody knows, how dry I am."


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