# Date of your salvation



## Jvictory15 (Aug 11, 2021)

I had a somewhat strange conversation today. The conversation was with another professing believer and the topic was on salvation, more specifically the role of salvation in terms of Gods sovereignty vs. human responsibility. This professing believer from the beginning was obviously Arminian in his theology but then took it to a whole other level with a certain comment. We were speaking on the ‘sinners prayer’ and they commented, “I believe if one does not know the date of their salvation then most likely they aren’t saved”. While I realize many know the very day of their salvation, there is a large portion that are unaware of the exact time of their justification. I was pretty awestruck, and didn’t really know what to say except “I disagree.”

My question is, where does this line of theology originate from? Is this simply something they made up in their own line of thought or is this something that may have historically been taught?


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## Sgt Grit (Aug 11, 2021)

In every Pentecostal and Armenian church I attended they had alter calls, raising your hands or just repeating a prayer. It's not hard to know the date of your salvation when you have to actually do something. I have no idea when I was saved, there are many times in my life that I can look at possibly being the moment, but I'll never know.

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## Pilgrim (Aug 11, 2021)

Jvictory15 said:


> I had a somewhat strange conversation today. The conversation was with another professing believer and the topic was on salvation, more specifically the role of salvation in terms of Gods sovereignty vs. human responsibility. This professing believer from the beginning was obviously Arminian in his theology but then took it to a whole other level with a certain comment. We were speaking on the ‘sinners prayer’ and they commented, “I believe if one does not know the date of their salvation then most likely they aren’t saved”. While I realize many know the very day of their salvation, there is a large portion that are unaware of the exact time of their justification. I was pretty awestruck, and didn’t really know what to say except “I disagree.”
> 
> My question is, where does this line of theology originate from? Is this simply something they made up in their own line of thought or is this something that may have historically been taught?


It originates from an extreme form of revivalism, albeit one that was all too common in the past. It is too widespread today as well, I'm sure, but the sense I have is that it was worse in the past. (The "seeker-sensitive" practices that replaced this in some cases aren't necessarily a significant improvement.)

It is a way to obtain "decisions." "You don't know the day and the hour? Let's clear that up right now!" It might have been seen more often with itinerant evangelists/revivalists, (something else that has largely fallen by the wayside) but it is in local churches too. If you are on campus you can mention this to some of the older professors to get an idea how widespread this mentality was and how widespread it might be today.

Some people will think that you have to come down the aisle before you can really be regarded as saved as well. I mentioned this in a Southern Baptist FB group a while back. Most of the pastors and others said I was crazy, but a few of them had encountered this mentality. At least what the Campbellites overemphasize is a biblical ordinance rather than a man-made one!

While I do believe the SBC is truly declining as most denominations are, I think that this kind of thing becoming somewhat rarer than it was a generation or two ago is probably one factor in the lower baptism numbers.


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## jwithnell (Aug 11, 2021)

I can give an "around Sept. 1, 1980," and that wasn't enough for one fella I was starting to see who wanted me to pray the sinner's prayer so he could feel better about it. Hmmm, what about doing all for the glory of Christ?

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## Taylor (Aug 11, 2021)

This is just Finneyism. Plain and simple. The ironic and sad thing is that this way of looking at salvation completely dismisses, even trashes, the wonderful providence of God toward a person who was brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord in such a way that they cannot remember a time that they didn’t know him. To look at such a person and say, “You therefore must not be saved,” is not only a sin against them, but is also in my view an unconscionable blasphemy. The wind blows where it wishes, and we do not know where it comes from or where it goes. Thus it is for everyone who is born of the Spirit.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 12, 2021)

I had some extensive experience with Chas. Finney and John Wesley back in the late 1960s and early 70s – and along with some other bad teaching made a real mess of my spiritual life for a long while. The LORD did rescue me from it though, and when I became Reformed it was with a passion – a good bit of it _against_ semi-Pelagianism and Arminian perfection, as well as _for_ God's provision of righteousness and holiness for the wretched seeking Him and His saving mercies!

Finney brought a very bad element into the Presbyterian churches of his day, and hurt many godly ministers and flocks.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Aug 12, 2021)

There is an easy way to deal with this teaching: Ask its advocates where do they get such a notion in the Bible?

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## Phil D. (Aug 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> The wind blows where it wishes, and we do not hear the sound of it. Thus it is for everyone who is born of the Spirit.


Not to overly nit-pick, but the verse you are citing says we _do_ hear the sound of it (John 3:8). I agree with your overall point though.

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## RamistThomist (Aug 12, 2021)

Let's carry the logic a step further. What if I get amnesia? Since I can't remember the date anymore, I must not be saved.

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## Taylor (Aug 12, 2021)

Phil D. said:


> Not to overly nit-pick, but the verse you are citing says we _do_ hear the sound of it (John 3:8). I agree with your overall point though.


Good catch. I was going from memory, and I conflated _hearing_ and _not knowing_ where it comes or where it goes. I will edit it to reflect that. Thank you!


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## Ed Walsh (Aug 12, 2021)

Jvictory15 said:


> This professing believer from the beginning was obviously Arminian in his theology but then took it to a whole other level with a certain comment. We were speaking on the ‘sinners prayer’ and they commented, “I believe if one does not know the date of their salvation then most likely they aren’t saved”.



That's an easy one. On the day (if you even have such a day) that you become aware that you have faith, you can be sure that your regeneration happened at some point previously.

You must be born again even to see the kingdom of God. etc.

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## Tom Hart (Aug 12, 2021)

Here is Bavinck, in _The Certainty of Faith_, discussing a chief error of Methodism:



> "[T]he Methodists felt it was necessary to shock the soul out of its false security. Faith ought to be preceded by a deep sense of guilt evoked by passionate speeches, by terrifying descriptions of death and hell, and by emotional, stirring songs. But immediately thereafter, grace was preached and there was an offer of salvation.
> 
> "From the descent into hell of self-knowledge, the soul ascended into the heaven of knowing God. Methodism compressed all experience of salvation into one moment. The deepest misery and the highest blessedness lay side by side. He who sat down in the sinner's seat as a lost soul was in that moment found by Christ. He sat down guilty and deserving hell, and he stood up pardoned and having inherited heaven.
> 
> "Faith was therefore an immediate, full certainty, because it originated suddenly out of deep woe and derived its total certainty from the contrast with the state that preceded it. Faith was born in the bright light of awareness. The Methodist knows the day and hour of his rebirth. John Wesley was converted on May 24, 1738 at 9:15 P.M. Anyone who came into the certainty of faith by this route never need doubt his own condition. There was no longer any need for continual self-examination, looking inward to test the reality of one's faith. One knew that one had passed from death into life and now had more important things to do. Justification was for once and always, finished, but sanctification lay before him. And around him lay a world full of lost souls who needed to be saved in the same manner. Converted himself, he now had no higher calling than to convert others and win as many souls for Jesus as possible."


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## Santos (Aug 12, 2021)

What great providence! I was just discussing this very topic with my children last night during our catechism study. 

We had an interesting situation last night when we were at a "Meet the Teacher" event at my son's junior high school. 
We ran into an old friend and his family that we used to go to church with who has a son the same age as mine. As we were catching up
my friend went on to tell us how his son was about to be baptized after making a "decision" at summer camp. I did not have the time nor the words
to dive into this with my friend, though I hope to soon.

My son was baptized last October after the Holy Spirit did something incredible in his heart during a sermon about abiding in The Vine at a men's meeting. The difference was there was no "alter call". There was no flashy preacher. We were not sitting near any children ( my son is 12 almost 13) his age. This was not even an evangelistic type of sermon. My son had always been a well behaved boy. Never rebellious. Never in trouble. He has always been interested in things of the Lord. He has always asked good questions. He has memorized his catechisms Q/A and been able to articulate them well over the last 3 years that I have been teaching them to his younger sisters and him, by God's grace. But at this moment he realized that he believed everything that I taught him over the years yet his faith was mine. And in that very moment he began to believe for himself. I am amazed by God's goodness.

I was raised in Pentecostal decisionism. This took quite a bit of deprogramming over the last 4 years. God is merciful.

Well, when we returned home we went to our catechism study. 
*Q:* How is the word to be read and heard, that it may become effectual to salvation?
*A:* That the word may become effectual to salvation, we must attend thereunto with diligence,1 preparation,2 and prayer,3 receive it with faith4 and love,5 lay it up in our hearts,6 and practice it in our lives.7 (Taken from Westminster Shorter Catechism Project)

This presented a wonderful opportunity to discuss the difference between "decisionism", and what the Lord had done in my son Avi. ( This is not to say that the Holy Spirit did not do an actual thing in my friends son.) And to discuss the danger of decisionism. Such as why repent of sin if you have already prayed a prayer and made a decision when you were 8 at vacation bible school. It also gave us the opportunity to talk about "the wonderful providence of God toward a person who was brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord in such a way that they cannot remember a time that they didn’t know him." As my brother Taylor mentioned above. It was a wonderful time. 

Oh, that I would have been catechized as a child. Yet, God is merciful!

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## JM (Aug 12, 2021)

Dr. Barnhouse preached a sermon some time ago called “Eternal Indentification.” The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals was hosting the file at the time so it might still be there.

He had the following to say.



> *First*, when the Holy Spirit placed me in Christ before the foundation of the world.
> *Second*, when the lord Jesus Christ cried, it is finished.
> *Third*, when I was actually made alive by the quickening of the Holy Spirit,
> and the *fourth time*, which has not yet occurred, will be when the last vestige of the Adamic nature is gone forever and the image of Christ has become completed within.

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## Branson (Aug 12, 2021)

I also had a conversation with a friend recently concerning the same topic. His conversion experience happened while he was serving as a Deacon and was unconverted while doing so. When the Lord opened his eyes, it was quite dramatic and memorable to him. You could tell it was a sweet Providence to him, and he knew he had been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light. My own conversion wasn’t that dramatic, and I know it isn’t with many others as well, yet it is every much of a reality as his.

I have been reading Flavel lately, and he said this about the circumstances of conversion:

“Conversion, as to the subjects of it, may be considered two ways; either as it is more clearly wrought in person of riper years, who in their youthful days were more profane and vile; or upon persons in their tender years, into whose hearts grace was more imperceptibly and indiscernibly instilled by God’s blessing upon pious education. In the former sort, the distinct acts of the Spirit, illuminating, convincing, humbling, drawing them to Christ and sealing them are more evident and discernible. In the latter, these are more obscure and confused. They can remember that God gave them an esteem and liking of godly persons, care of duty and conscience of sin; but as to the time, place, instruments and manner of the work, they can give but a slender account of them. However, if the work is savingly wrought in them, there is no reason they should be troubled because the circumstances of it are not so evident to them as they are to others. Let the substance and reality of the work appear and there is no reason to afflict yourselves because of the lack of evidence of such circumstance.

But where the circumstances as well as substance are clear to a man, when we can call to remembrance the time when, the place where, the instrument by whom that work was wrought, it must needs be exceedingly sweet, and they cannot but yield a fresh delight to the soul every time they are reflected upon.”


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## JimmyH (Aug 13, 2021)

Knowing the date of our salvation must certainly be an individual experience, and not de rigueur for all. Coming as I did from being raised by atheists I didn't come to a saving knowledge until I was 37, and that through reading the NT. My purpose in reading it was to prove to myself that it was not valid. So in Kearny NJ one night in September of 1986, as I was reading through Romans, I knew the Bible is true, I realized I am a sinner in need of a savior, and there you have it. So "I can tell you the time, and I can show you to the place, where the Lord saved me, on that wonderful day" ... as the Stanley Brothers so eloquently put it ....

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## C. M. Sheffield (Aug 13, 2021)

As a youth, I remember an evangelist who came to our church for a revival meeting and while giving the altar call, he loudly declared, "I believe if you're ninety-nine percent sure that you're saved, then you're a hundred percent lost."

It was also common to hear preachers say things like, "If you can't tell me when the Lord of glory stepped out of heaven and into your heart, than I don't believe you've been saved!"

It's just appalling to think what sadness and despair these kinds of statements must have inflicted on so many weak and struggling saints.

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## RamistThomist (Aug 13, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> As a youth, I remember an evangelist who came to our church for a revival meeting and while giving the altar call, he loudly declared, "I believe if you're ninety-nine percent sure that you're saved, then you're a hundred percent lost."
> 
> It was also common to hear preachers say things like, "If you can't tell me when the Lord of glory stepped out of heaven and into your heart, than I don't believe you've been saved!"
> 
> It's just appalling to think what sadness and despair these kinds of statements must have inflicted on so many weak and struggling saints.



Agreed. It is a vile and evil tactic. And from a philosophy/epistemology, standpoint, it's bunk. Ultimately, that approach will lead to an infinite regress of reasons:

Do you know that you know that you are saved?
Do you know that you know that you know that you are saved?
Do you know that you know that you know that you know that you are saved?

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## RobertPGH1981 (Aug 13, 2021)

Jvictory15 said:


> My question is, where does this line of theology originate from? Is this simply something they made up in their own line of thought or is this something that may have historically been taught?



I know people who are reformed who hold to this line of thinking. I believe this comes from a few places and mixed theologically as well.

1. Some key passages of conversion in the New Testament highlight radical changes in the character and thoughts of the believer. The primary example is the Apostle Paul and a few others can be deduced from Acts. This radical change is when a person outside of God's grace realizes his need for God (Romans 3:10-18) and comes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. Most people I run into that take this stance have a few characteristics that can be identified. I realize this isn't true for all since I basing this on a pattern but this is what I noticed:
a. They are Credobaptist. These baptist friends typically feel that paedobaptism gives children a false assurance and hope in salvation. In their minds everybody should know the time of their conversion. If they don't know it then it wasn't the radical change that the bible describes of moving from death to new life. 
b. most of the people I know that hold this line of thinking take Regeneration and rebirth to an extreme form of determinism which can be akin to Hyper-Calvinism.
c. lastly, most of them also work in street preaching ministry and reach out to inmates and prison ministry and drug addicts. They always experience dramatic conversations in their ministry and eliminate the outwardly worldly good of society by equating all the rich/suburbanite's as being lost and lovers of money. 

Just a few observations from what I personality noticed.

Do you desire to be like Christ?
Do you strive to be holy/set apart from the world not to earn God's favor but because your inward convictions and leading you there. 

Just read this in the morning which is a great contrast between the Demon who believes Jesus is the Son of God, and a believer who believes Jesus is the Son of God and they trust in his promises.

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith rapart from your works, and I will show you my faith sby my works. 19 tYou believe that God is one; you do well. Even uthe demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 vWas not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that wfaith was active along with his works, and faith was completed xby his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, y“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a zfriend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also aRahab the prostitute justified by works bwhen she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


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## KMK (Aug 13, 2021)

Jvictory15 said:


> I had a somewhat strange conversation today.



This is why we introverts say conversations should be avoided at all costs.

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