# America Is a Theological Wasteland



## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

What has become of Christianity in this country? It is very discouraging that tripe like this passes for meaningful spirituality (since, you know, we all have this voice in us, and that is "God").

***Video Removed by Moderator (me)***

There is a story and a point behind this complaint. I stumbled across this video while doing a Google search. I should have been searching for "interview with God." I eventually found this.

Last night, in the undergrad theology class in which I am a grad assistant, the students were supposed to give group presentations. They had to take a chapter from Tim Keller's _The Reason for God_ and do a presentation on the objection to Christianity given in that chapter. The last presentation was by three women who did theirs on "How Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?" It was a very brave topic, and by far their presentation was the best of the groups. However, at the end, they said that they had talked about such bad news, they wanted to give the "good news." But, instead of the gospel, they played the video (the second one) I linked above.

There were, of course, problems with their presentation. They wanted to distinguish between thinking of God as a God of Wrath instead of a God of Hate, and that God's wrath is not contradictory to His love. Good enough, but then they stated that hate would be, and "God doesn't hate." After the presentation, I asked them to look up Psalm 5:4. They were drop-jawed, as if they had never heard such a thing before. At this point I can only pray that God uses His word to transform their faulty notions about God.

A faulty notions abound. The video above is but one indication. Complete tripe once again. No gospel given (but yet it is supposed to be "good news"). Only mindless sentimental manmade aphorisms (which are meant to pass for a substitute for revelation, I suppose). If this is any indication, America is a theological wasteland, and it is breaking my heart.


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## OPC'n (Aug 5, 2009)

Well, not a wasteland....after all we have Sproul! Oh, and my pastor who also ROCKS!!!


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## JoyFullMom (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm not even sure what this had to do with their assignment.....but.....I will admit that I thought "uh oh, here comes another "Shack" book!" LOL!

Someone recently gave me a book called "Jesus Calling". The author said basically the same thing. She sat and wrote what *Jesus* said to her in her quiet time. The book is written as a daily devotional with *Jesus* speaking to you each day...she argues that although there is no scripture quoted, it is *based* on scripture. 

Soooo.....now *we* can say it better than GOD said it in His Word? He didn't communicate *clear* enough so we have to do a better job? I get frustrated also with this notion that God can't draw people to Himself on his own, so we have to dress him up and put a bow on top. 

This is all disturbing. Don't you think it comes from a people who would rather watch and read and listen to just about anything BUT the actual scriptures? sigh.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Yes, Polly, that was exactly my assessment as well. And I thought exactly the same thing you did -- this is like another _Shack_.


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

"All we need to do is..." upgrade our props -- the scene of the woman working at the computer (0:46) -- she's using a Mac PLus!



-----Added 8/5/2009 at 12:02:30 EST-----



Marrow Man said:


> Yes, Polly, that was exactly my assessment as well. And I thought exactly the same thing you did -- this is like another _Shack_.



Yep -- since it's my personal _experience_, it cannot be questioned.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Dan, for us non-Mac people, please explain the Mac-plus comment.

Perhaps I should change the name of the thread to: America is a Microsoft Wasteland.


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Dan, for us non-Mac people, please explain the Mac-plus comment.
> 
> Perhaps I should change the name of the thread to: America is a Microsoft Wasteland.




Sorry -- the Mac Plus is an _ancient _(circa 1988) version of the Macintosh.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

DanMcCormack said:


> Sorry -- the Mac Plus is an _ancient _(circa 1988) version of the Macintosh.





So, this would be roughly the equivalent of featuring a 486 PC with a 14" CRT monitor...

Maybe that scene is supposed to be a flashback???


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## Reformed Thomist (Aug 5, 2009)

Still... things could be worse. There's probably more good theology coming out of the U.S. than any other nation today, at least in terms of books. We have much to be thankful for in the presence of men like Carson, Sproul, Piper, Keller, Mohler, Dever, Ferguson, and Horton; the work is there and readily available for those who are called to profit from it.


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> So, this would be roughly the equivalent of featuring a 486 PC with a 14" CRT monitor...



Try *2*86.



Marrow Man said:


> Maybe that scene is supposed to be a flashback???



Hmmm.... maybe. But the film won't be in my NetFlix list anytime soon....


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

DanMcCormack said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > So, this would be roughly the equivalent of featuring a 486 PC with a 14" CRT monitor...
> ...





Maybe more like my old Radio Shack/Tandy Color Computer (the old CoCo).

Or a Timex Sinclair 1000... (yes, I had one of those too).


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Maybe more like my old Radio Shack/Tandy Color Computer (the old CoCo).
> 
> Or a Timex Sinclair 1000... (yes, I had one of those too).



Ouch...

I started out with an Atari 800XL.







"Programs" came in a cartridge similar to the game console (but were not compatible). We once drove all the way to Rochester, NY (an hour's drive) to find a small office supply store that sold 5 1/2" floppies.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 5, 2009)

America isn't exactly a theological wasteland... fortunately, we have the PB.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

My mom ordered the TS 1000 for me as a birthday present. She also got the memory pack (the box-shaped device that plugs into the back) that boosted it up to a whopping 16 KB of memory! You had to use a tape recorder to store programs. But I did learn BASIC on the thing.

She ordered it over the phone from J and R Electronics. They're still in business. My camcorder is supposed to be arriving today, and I ordered it from them!


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> America isn't exactly a theological wasteland... fortunately, we have the PB.



OK, it's a wasteland with some very, very nice oasises. (how do you pluralize "oasis"?)


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## Knoxienne (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > America isn't exactly a theological wasteland... fortunately, we have the PB.
> ...



I think it's oases. 

Bill would kid around and say oasi.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 5, 2009)

JoyFullMom said:


> I'm not even sure what this had to do with their assignment.....but.....I will admit that I thought "uh oh, here comes another "Shack" book!" LOL!
> 
> Someone recently gave me a book called "Jesus Calling". The author said basically the same thing. She sat and wrote what *Jesus* said to her in her quiet time. The book is written as a daily devotional with *Jesus* speaking to you each day...she argues that although there is no scripture quoted, it is *based* on scripture.
> 
> ...



I think it goes to the issue that many today don't want to have Truth mediated to them by the Word but trust their hearts and the immediate impulses that they count as a more sure foundation.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I think it goes to the issue that many today don't want to have Truth mediated to them by the Word but trust their hearts and the immediate impulses that they count as a more sure foundation.



Well said.


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## Curt (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I think it goes to the issue that many today don't want to have Truth mediated to them by the Word but trust their hearts and the immediate impulses that they count as a more sure foundation.
> ...



I think it goes to Romans 1. We will seek out anything but the True and Living God. Subjective is better than objective because if I don't like something I can actualize it with my own experience.

We need to just continue to preach the Gospel. Man is without excuse.


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> My mom ordered the TS 1000 for me as a birthday present. She also got the memory pack (the box-shaped device that plugs into the back) that boosted it up to a whopping 16 KB of memory! You had to use a tape recorder to store programs. But I did learn BASIC on the thing.
> 
> She ordered it over the phone from J and R Electronics. They're still in business. My camcorder is supposed to be arriving today, and I ordered it from them!





In 1983 my Section NCO tried the convince me to buy a "computer."

I said, "Why do I need one of those?"

"You can write letters, store recipes...."

"Right -- I sure do need a computer..." 

I finally took the plunge for the Atari in 1984 after I was out of the Air Force and a student at Houghton College.


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## R Harris (Aug 5, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> Still... things could be worse. There's probably more good theology coming out of the U.S. than any other nation today, at least in terms of books. We have much to be thankful for in the presence of men like Carson, Sproul, Piper, Keller, Mohler, Dever, Ferguson, and Horton; the work is there and readily available for those who are called to profit from it.



But even the men you list above also have problems/issues with several of their doctrinal positions.

Look, when the 16th and 17th century reformers would not even bother to dawn the doorstep of the churches of the above men, you know we have serious, serious problems and are in dire straits. 

Sometimes I have asked people, "do you know what the major doctrinal debate/issue was of the Southern Presbyterian church, causing significant strife and division, in the 1870s and 1880s?" No one knows. When I tell them "the use of musical instruments in the worship service," most are dumbfounded. They can't believe such a "minor, quibble point" could lead to such contention. And besides, haven't churches always used musical instruments in the past 1900 years?

My intent is to use the musical instrument issue as an example, not to hijack the thread. But my point is this: why are doctrinal issues in past ages not issues today? Are we so much more brilliant exegetically than they were?

No, for as C.S. Lewis once said, it is always easy to become victims of the "spirit of the age" and to exercise a good dose of what he called "chronological snobbery."

What we need is what God told Jeremiah in Jeremiah 6:16 - if you really want wisdom, return to the old paths, where wisdom really exists.


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## Iconoclast (Aug 5, 2009)

This is disturbing on so many levels that I am sure it damages brain cells


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 5, 2009)

As Matt Chandler says "The Church has never had a glory day... there is going to be a glory day..."


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## Blue Tick (Aug 5, 2009)

Gnosticism repackaged under the guise of truth. 

Ecclesiastes 1:8-10

8 All things are full of weariness;
a man cannot utter it;
the eye is not satisfied with seeing,
nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there a thing of which it is said,
“See, this is new”?
It has been already
in the ages before us.


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## DanMcCormack (Aug 5, 2009)

R Harris said:


> My intent is to use the musical instrument issue as an example, not to hijack the thread. But my point is this: why are doctrinal issues in past ages not issues today? Are we so much more brilliant exegetically than they were?



No, but maybe we're not willing to go to the mat over issues that seem (to us) less than essential.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 5, 2009)

Curt said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Semper Fidelis said:
> ...



I don't disagree. It's just that, today, many call that rebellion "being led by the Spirit". It is actually preferable to me when rank pagans act like pagans rather than those who name Christ call pagan thinking "...the Spirit is telling me...."


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## Pergamum (Aug 5, 2009)

I am more optimistic.


Now, more than ever before, Christianity has become a global religion. And though the light seems to be departing the West, there is still much light going forth from our spot on the globe.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 5, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> I am more optimistic.
> 
> 
> Now, more than ever before, Christianity has become a global religion. And though the light seems to be departing the West, there is still much light going forth from our spot on the globe.



When so much of that "light" seems to be really wacko charismatic... pardon me for not sharing your optimism.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 5, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I am more optimistic.
> ...



Look at this. Perg, the Baptist, has postmillenial optimism!

Ben, the Presbyterian, is the pessimistic Amil!


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 5, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



I have plenty of long-term, big-picture optimism... I'm just not so optimistic about the present situation.


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## Pergamum (Aug 5, 2009)

Semper Fidelis said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



I think Ben is on the verge of breaking. I'm going to see him next month and apply Credo-Water-Boarding as the final measure to bring him over to the Dark Side....err Deep Side.


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## py3ak (Aug 5, 2009)

R Harris said:


> Look, when the 16th and 17th century reformers would not even bother to dawn the doorstep of the churches of the above men, you know we have serious, serious problems and are in dire straits.



Is "dawn the doorstep" similar to mooning? If so, I can well imagine that few among the 16th and 17th century theologians (perhaps only Maccovius) would do such a thing.


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## Pergamum (Aug 5, 2009)

py3ak said:


> R Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Look, when the 16th and 17th century reformers would not even bother to dawn the doorstep of the churches of the above men, you know we have serious, serious problems and are in dire straits.
> ...



PIE-THREE-ACK:

The mental imagery of Calvin mooning Arminius has now got me laughing.

-----Added 8/5/2009 at 06:12:38 EST-----

we need a smiley of THAT one!


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## Rich Koster (Aug 5, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> DanMcCormack said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...



TRaSh80?

-----Added 8/5/2009 at 08:49:25 EST-----

Oh, as far as the OP video...

People on 'ludes should not produce God movies


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> The mental imagery of Calvin mooning Arminius has now got me laughing.



Since Calvin died when Arminius was around four, I don't like the image of a 50ish man mooning a baby/small child.


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## kvanlaan (Aug 5, 2009)

> Yep -- since it's my personal experience, it cannot be questioned.



Oh, you Emergent guru...



> I finally took the plunge for the Atari in 1984 after I was out of the Air Force and a student at *Houghton College*.



Hey, did you know Dr. Pollock? I met him several times and read his book on TCKs. I also spent some quality time with his son in China.



> It's just that, today, many call that rebellion "being led by the Spirit". It is actually preferable to me when rank pagans act like pagans rather than those who name Christ call pagan thinking "...the Spirit is telling me...."



 One is a natural consequence of sin, the other is a twisting and perversion of something beautiful.



> Look, when the 16th and 17th century reformers would not even bother to dawn the doorstep of the churches of the above men, you know we have serious, serious problems and are in dire straits.



Yep, WWJOD? (What Would John Owen Do?) He sure wouldn't grab a latte after the service, for one thing.



> Sometimes I have asked people, "do you know what the major doctrinal debate/issue was of the Southern Presbyterian church, causing significant strife and division, in the 1870s and 1880s?" No one knows. When I tell them "the use of musical instruments in the worship service," most are dumbfounded. They can't believe such a "minor, quibble point" could lead to such contention. And besides, haven't churches always used musical instruments in the past 1900 years?
> 
> My intent is to use the musical instrument issue as an example, not to hijack the thread. But my point is this: why are doctrinal issues in past ages not issues today? Are we so much more brilliant exegetically than they were?



No, we prefer to focus on "keeping the main thing the main thing" and the rest is just 'divisive'.


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## Sven (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't know about America being a theological wasteland; there are theologies galore here, but I catch your drift. Really, though, it is all, as Luther called it, theology of glory, rather than the theology of the cross. The theology of glory tries to see God in His glory apart from the Word and apart from suffering and the cross, but the theologian of the cross comprehends God through suffering and the cross. Here is a great explanation of the theology of the cross: Luther's Theology of the Cross 

As I see it, the problem is in the foundations. According to the Reformed dogmaticians, there are two principia theologia or theological foundations: the foundation of being, i.e., God, and the foundation of knowing, i.e., the Word of God. If we truly want a theology that is God-glorifying and God-centered, we will build on no other foundation. But many in America have built upon the foundation of either reason or feeling and have thus constructed a man-made, man-centered theology. Building upon reason will lead us to rationalism; building upon feeling will lead us to mysticism. If we understand the foundations of being and knowing correctly we will find that the Word of God points us to Christ and that we can only know God through Christ; hence, when we build upon these two foundations our theology will be Christ-centered. This is why there is, as Horton has powerfully shown, a lot of Christ-less Christianity in America; many are not building on the proper foundations. Paul said, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:11


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## Marrow Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Spot on, Steven.


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