# The Beard - Symbol of manhood and token of the superior nature?



## Coram Deo

Early Church Father Clement of Alexandria wrote,

“How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest–a sign of strength and rule.” 2.275

“This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” 2.276

“It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment.” 2.277





What does fellow Puritans think of these quotes and the merits of them?


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## Coram Deo

Well, I guess the question would be, does it mean any type of beard or does it have to be a full fledged beard.......

Right now, I have a pretty good chin/upper lip beard going on with a long sideburns on each side, but I have to shave an 2 inch area between the chin and the side burn because I have pockets of no hair in between....





joshua said:


> Well, seeing as how not all men are endowed with the ability to grow thick, acceptable, beards, I think the quotes are nonsense. It really irks me to see some guy who's incapable of growing a beard try to do it anyway. They're chin looks like teen boy's armpit. Yeck!. But it certainly doesn't bring into question their manhood. That's absurd.


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## tcalbrecht

Hmmm, didn't Bill Gothard teach that beards indicate a lack of humility and were a symbol of rebellion.


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## Coram Deo

Does anyone believe anything that Gothard says... 





tcalbrecht said:


> Hmmm, didn't Bill Gothard teach that beards indicate a lack of humility and were a symbol of rebellion.


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## Coram Deo

To Clements concept of beard = manhood and token of superior nature....





joshua said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I guess the question would be, does it mean any type of beard or does it have to be a full fledged beard.......
> 
> 
> 
> To what/whom does "it" refer in this sentence?
Click to expand...


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## toddpedlar

Coram Deo said:


> Early Church Father Clement of Alexandria wrote,
> 
> “How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest–a sign of strength and rule.” 2.275
> 
> “This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” 2.276
> 
> “It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment.” 2.277
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does fellow Puritans think of these quotes and the merits of them?



I think we have much better and more important things to be concerned about than whether "true men" have beards.

As for paying much attention to Clement's comments on adiaphora like beardedness, you perhaps can guess my opinion. Token of a superior nature? Get real!


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## Coram Deo

Also, who says that a beard HAS to be acceptable. If a man can only grow a teenage arm pit style on his chin  then who am I to say if it is not acceptable..


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## Davidius

joshua said:


> Well, seeing as how not all men are endowed with the ability to grow thick, acceptable, beards, I think the quotes are nonsense. It really irks me to see some guy who's incapable of growing a beard try to do it anyway. They're chin looks like teen boy's armpit. Yeck!. But it certainly doesn't bring into question their manhood. That's absurd.



Yeah, that pretty much sounds like me.  I wish I could grow a beard.

And I agree. The quotes are absurd.


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## BobVigneault

"But the embellishment of smoothing (for I am warned by the Word), if it is to attract men, is the act of an effeminate person,—if to attract women, is the act of an adulterer; and both must be driven as far as possible from our society. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered," says the Lord; those on the chin, too, are numbered, and those on the whole body. There must be therefore no plucking out, contrary to God's appointment, which has counted them in according to His will."

According to Clement any hair removal at all violates providence. Let's face it, he was a 7 point Calvinist.

This is why the other kids wouldn't let him leave his letters in the Bible.


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## VictorBravo

BobVigneault said:


> "But the embellishment of smoothing (for I am warned by the Word), if it is to attract men, is the act of an effeminate person,—if to attract women, is the act of an adulterer; and both must be driven as far as possible from our society. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered," says the Lord; those on the chin, too, are numbered, and those on the whole body. There must be therefore no plucking out, contrary to God's appointment, which has counted them in according to His will."
> 
> According to Clement any hair removal at all violates providence. Let's face it, he was a 7 point Calvinist.
> 
> This is why the other kids wouldn't let him leave his letters in the Bible.





All I have is my personal experience. When I had a full bushy beard, store security men would follow me around when I was shopping, and young Jewish kids would come up to me to ask for my understanding of the Torah.


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## Coram Deo

Todd,

I am going to politely disagree with you... I am not saying I believe what Clement is saying... I thought it was an interesting quote to discuss... But What I disagree with is saying that whether or not a beard is less important or the implicit underlying (maybe I am wrong how I read it) statement that outward issues are unimportant... But I don't agree that outward issues are unimportant or straining at gnats.. I believe that both inward or internal and outward or external needs to be kept in balance but both are important... Nor do I believe that such topics are a waste of time.. Anything that is in scripture, whether someone thinks they are the smallest of issues are important to discuss, and I believe Clement might be getting some of his understanding from the passage about not shaving the beard... So part of his statement is in the scriptures and worthy to discuss....

Where we come out on the passage is a different matter... I see the beard passage as a type of shadow of new testament realities of sanctification and separation..... Of course I could be wrong and Clement could be right... So I believe it is important to discuss the matters.... So I don't see it as unimportant... 

I also have very little love for cultural arguments... If I were to throw away the modesty issue, the headcovering passages, and other token passages that people label cultural aspects I might as well throw out the rest.... It becomes a very slippery slope when you start to label things as cultural....

Again, I am not saying I agree with Clement, but it is a very fascinating Quote and I believe worth discussing....




toddpedlar said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Early Church Father Clement of Alexandria wrote,
> 
> “How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest–a sign of strength and rule.” 2.275
> 
> “This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” 2.276
> 
> “It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment.” 2.277
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does fellow Puritans think of these quotes and the merits of them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we have much better and more important things to be concerned about than whether "true men" have beards.
> 
> As for paying much attention to Clement's comments on adiaphora like beardedness, you perhaps can guess my opinion. Token of a superior nature? Get real!
Click to expand...


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## Coram Deo

victorbravo said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> "But the embellishment of smoothing (for I am warned by the Word), if it is to attract men, is the act of an effeminate person,—if to attract women, is the act of an adulterer; and both must be driven as far as possible from our society. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered," says the Lord; those on the chin, too, are numbered, and those on the whole body. There must be therefore no plucking out, contrary to God's appointment, which has counted them in according to His will."
> 
> According to Clement any hair removal at all violates providence. Let's face it, he was a 7 point Calvinist.
> 
> This is why the other kids wouldn't let him leave his letters in the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I have is my personal experience. When I had a full bushy beard, store security men would follow me around when I was shopping, and young Jewish kids would come up to me to ask for my understanding of the Torah.
Click to expand...


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## Coram Deo

Agreed, Sorry... Still trying to get moving and mind fogging from little sleep in the night... 


Leviticus 19:27

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.





joshua said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anything that is in scripture, whether someone thinks they are the smallest of issues are important to discuss, and I believe Clement might be getting some of his understanding from the passage about not shaving the beard... So part of his statement is in the scriptures and worthy to discuss....
> 
> 
> 
> A citing of this passage to which you refer would have been helpful, Brother. Surely, you're not quoting Clement as the Scripture?
Click to expand...


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## Herald

Coram Deo said:


> Todd,
> 
> I am going to politely disagree with you... I am not saying I believe what Clement is saying... I thought it was an interesting quote to discuss... But What I disagree with is saying that whether or not a beard is less important or the implicit underlying (maybe I am wrong how I read it) statement that outward issues are unimportant... But I don't agree that outward issues are unimportant or straining at gnats.. I believe that both inward or internal and outward or external needs to be kept in balance but both are important... Nor do I believe that such topics are a waste of time.. Anything that is in scripture, whether someone thinks they are the smallest of issues are important to discuss, and I believe Clement might be getting some of his understanding from the passage about not shaving the beard... So part of his statement is in the scriptures and worthy to discuss....
> 
> Where we come out on the passage is a different matter... I see the beard passage as a type of shadow of new testament realities of sanctification and separation..... Of course I could be wrong and Clement could be right... So I believe it is important to discuss the matters.... So I don't see it as unimportant...
> 
> I also have very little love for cultural arguments... If I were to throw away the modesty issue, the headcovering passages, and other token passages that people label cultural aspects I might as well throw out the rest.... It becomes a very slippery slope when you start to label things as cultural....
> 
> Again, I am not saying I agree with Clement, but it is a very fascinating Quote and I believe worth discussing....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Early Church Father Clement of Alexandria wrote,
> 
> “How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest–a sign of strength and rule.” 2.275
> 
> “This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” 2.276
> 
> “It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment.” 2.277
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does fellow Puritans think of these quotes and the merits of them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we have much better and more important things to be concerned about than whether "true men" have beards.
> 
> As for paying much attention to Clement's comments on adiaphora like beardedness, you perhaps can guess my opinion. Token of a superior nature? Get real!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Michael,

When it's not a scriptural argument (and this one isn't) it becomes purely subjective. To you it's important and relevant. To others it's not. It does seem that the consensus of posts in this thread (other than yours) indicates it's not relevant to the majority. That's neither good or bad. It simply, "is what it is."


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## Coram Deo

That is what I accept right now, that it is ceremonial law that foreshadowed New Testament realities.. But I could be wrong and Clement could be right....

Just Pondering....




joshua said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, Sorry... Still trying to get moving and mind fogging from little sleep in the night...
> 
> 
> Leviticus 19:27
> 
> Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> A citing of this passage to which you refer would have been helpful, Brother. Surely, you're not quoting Clement as the Scripture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So would this be ceremonial law? No mixing of two different materials? Eating no flesh with blood in it (like my favorite sirloin)?
Click to expand...


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## Coram Deo

That is your opinion... I think Clement would disagree with you whether it was a scriptural argument or not.... 



North Jersey Baptist said:


> When it's not a scriptural argument (and this one isn't) it becomes purely subjective.


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## Coram Deo

Hmm, my favorite too... "Pittsburg style" Put it on, turn it over, take it off... Hmmmm...

Of course I have not had it that way in while since I have to be more careful with my immune system... Most of my meat has to be cooked done now... 

Of course, didn't the counsel in Acts say that Gentile believers were to abstain from blood.... 





joshua said:


> Eating no flesh with blood in it (like my favorite sirloin)?


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## BobVigneault

To Clement it was scriptural:

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered"

However, that is a misapplication of the verse. He's trying to make it walk on all fours and he goes too far. It is a verse about God's omniscience but he uses it as a prooftext about hair.


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## Herald

BobVigneault said:


> To Clement it was scriptural:
> 
> "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered"
> 
> However, that is a misapplication of the verse. He's trying to make it walk on all fours and he goes too far. It is a verse about God's omniscience but he uses it as a prooftext about hair.



Spot on, professor Bawb.


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## JOwen

I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have. 

Father of 9.


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## DMcFadden

Of course God intended real men to have beards! Now, hair on top of their heads . . . that's another story. Why would you ask?






Actually, I'm with the other old guys in thinking that Clement must have been smoking something when he made that comment.


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## tcalbrecht

I always wanted a beard like these guys:






... and the hat and sunglasses ...


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## Thomas2007

Clement was a Platonist and it this syncretism between Hellenic thought and Christian teaching that you are reading in his quote. (i.e., token of superior nature)


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## JOwen

joshua said:


> I suppose, then, Pastor Lewis, that Jesus and Paul weren't men?
> 
> (I know your post was tongue-in-cheek, right?)
> 
> Beautiful family, BTW.





Think again brother!

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 



Blessings!


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## greenbaggins

I think, in all honesty, that the principle is still valid of having men look different than women. I don't think it has to be by means of beard, although that is certainly a rather decisive indication of what sex a person is. The point is that men should not look like women. 

On a side note, if I shaved my beard off, not only would I look like I'm 16 years old, but my children would be scared to death!


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## puritanpilgrim

> Also, who says that a beard HAS to be acceptable. If a man can only grow a teenage arm pit style on his chin then who am I to say if it is not acceptable..



It is determined by the same measure that Clement determined: Subjectivity. Esau was hairy, Jacob was not...was Esau more of a man. Esau liked to hunt, Jacob liked to cook. Does that make Esau more of a man?


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## greenbaggins

tcalbrecht said:


> I always wanted a beard like these guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... and the hat and sunglasses ...



I prefer the Gandalf look more.


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## tcalbrecht

greenbaggins said:


> On a side note, if I shaved my beard off, not only would I look like I'm 16 years old, but my children would be scared to death!



Last time I shaved was when my daughter was about 4, and when I came out of the bathroom I did scare her to death. She cried for the longest time about the "strange man in the house".


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## JOwen

joshua said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose, then, Pastor Lewis, that Jesus and Paul weren't men?
> 
> (I know your post was tongue-in-cheek, right?)
> 
> Beautiful family, BTW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think again brother!
> 
> Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
> 
> Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
> 
> 
> 
> Blessings!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, what if one is unable to physically have children, and is not called/qualified to raise spiritual children? Does that mean such a one is not a man, albeit due to Providential hindrances?
Click to expand...


Errr, this is not going the right direction. My post was simple fun, nothing more intended. Of course a man's masculinity is not tied to the number of children he has.


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## Coram Deo

Greenbaggins,

I agree with most of what you said.... And you have put into words what I was thinking (Principle is still valid), though I might say that it well could be the beard as one determining factor... To say "I don't think it has to be by means of beard" is like those say that the headcovering principle is the same, but that we use a ring on a finger instead of a headcovering".. I don't accept that argument...

But the point remains, men should not look like women, whether one accept a beard as a factor or not and how one comes out on the passages regarding the beard......

By the way, I agree, I like Gandalf's beard a lot better.... 



greenbaggins said:


> I think, in all honesty, that the principle is still valid of having men look different than women. I don't think it has to be by means of beard, although that is certainly a rather decisive indication of what sex a person is. The point is that men should not look like women.
> 
> On a side note, if I shaved my beard off, not only would I look like I'm 16 years old, but my children would be scared to death!


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## JOwen

JOwen said:


> Errr, this is not going the right direction. My post was simple fun, nothing more intended. Of course a man's masculinity is not tied to the number of children he has.



It's how many gophers he can shoot.


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## Coram Deo




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## joeholland

I agree with Lane.

In posting the quotes from Clement early this morning I was doing so in jest. We could pull up other pro-beard verses from men like Spurgeon and others that would be equally humorous based solely on the difference in societal norms. 

If you're really worked up about it, I suggest you go read the entire chapter from which the quotes come. You can find it in volume 2 of ANF in chapter three book three of _The Instructor_. Celement is, as Lane suggests, arguing mainly against the confusion of gender roles and secondarily against lavish living that carried with it effeminate overtones. You'd be surprised at how much he actually does quote Scripture and not just the ceremonial law.

Surely no one would argue with the importance of gender roles. We are simply left with the unassailable fact that God has given each gender biological distinctions to remind us that gender roles are important. The beard just happens to be one of the more prominent options for men whether it is utilized or not.

For more info on the history of beards and how World War I changed the American perception of beards, see this article.


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## JOwen

joshua said:


> Are Gophers tasty?



No, but they do help you grow a beard!

Back on topic!


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## Southern Presbyterian

So, what would clement do with this?


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## DMcFadden

JOwen said:


> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.



Pastor Jerrold, 

Excuse meeeeee. But, based on the best critical and exegetical study of Psa 127:5, it has been determined that you are over the quiver quota limit for "arrows." You have been advised by the magisterium of Calvinistic PooBahs to either pay your annual Exceeding the Approved Quiver Quota Surcharge or . . . throw one of them back. Personally, I would suggest the hairy white one on the far right.


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## JOwen

DMcFadden said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pastor Jerrold,
> 
> Excuse meeeeee. But, based on the best critical and exegetical study of Psa 127:5, it has been determined that you are over the quiver quota limit for "arrows." You have been advised by the magisterium of Calvinistic PooPahs to either pay your annual Exceeding the Approved Quiver Quota Surcharge or . . . throw one of them back. Personally, I would suggest the hairy white one on the far right.
Click to expand...


ROFL


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## DMcFadden

joshua said:


> Are Gophers tasty?



*Delmar O'Donnell*: Care for some gopher? 
*Ulysses Everett McGill*: No thank you, Delmar. One third of a gopher would only arouse my appetite without bedding it down. 
*Delmar O'Donnell*: Oh, you can have the whole thing. Me and Pete already had one apiece. We ran across a whole... gopher village.

Back on topic . . . I agree with Lane that the point was that men and women should dress differently and appear as members of their own sex. The issue of the bearded lady, while tragic, does not impact the topic under consideration. There are all sorts of genetic deformities and anomalies (from our perspective) that occur in our fallen world. The ratio of estrogen cascading over the fetus, for example, can have profound effects on the development in utero. But, none of that impringes upon how God designed men and women to be or how we are to behave in this fallen world.


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## Coram Deo

Please, Do Post them....... 



joeholland said:


> We could pull up other pro-beard verses from men like Spurgeon and others that would be equally humorous based solely on the difference in societal norms.


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## joeholland

I'll add one from Spurgeon because I know exactly where to find the reference. I'll see if I can come up with others. 

Excuse the length of the quote. I want to include enough so that you would see some the similarities with Clement. In discussing laryngitis and other throat ailments that preachers face, Spurgeon suggests,



> "From personal experience I venture with some diffidence to give this piece of advice. If any of you possess delightfully warm woolen comforters, with which there may be associated the most tender remembrances of mother or sister, treasure them--treasure them at the bottom of your trunk, but do not expose them to any vulgar use by wrapping them round your necks. If any brother wants to die of influenza let him wear a warm scarf around his neck, and then one of these nights he will forget it, and catch such a cold as will last him the rest of his natural life. You seldom see a sailor wrap his neck up. No, he always keeps it bare and exposed, and has a turn-down collar, and if he has a tie at all, it is but a small one loosely tied, so that the wind can blow about his neck. In this philosophy I am a firm believer, having never deviated from it for these fourteen years, and having before that time been frequently troubled with colds, but very seldom since. *If you feel that you want something else, why, then grow your beards! A habit most natural, scriptural, manly, and beneficial. One of our brethren, now present, has for years found this of great service. He was compelled to leave England on account of the loss of his voice, but he has become as strong as Samson now that his locks are unshorn.*"
> - CH Spurgeon, _Lectures to My Students_ (repr., Zondervan: Grand Rapids, 1954), 125.


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## DMcFadden

Coram Deo said:


> Please, Do Post them.......
> 
> 
> 
> joeholland said:
> 
> 
> 
> We could pull up other pro-beard verses from men like Spurgeon and others that would be equally humorous based solely on the difference in societal norms.
Click to expand...


In addition to Joe's great quote, here are some for fun.

At 34 years of age was he sacrificed for our sins; he was then hale and strong, although his body may have been emaciated by suffering, and his face more marred than that of any other man yet was he then in the perfection of manhood. Methinks I see him then. His goodly beard flowing down upon his breast, I see him with his eyes full of genius, his form erect, his mien majestic, his energy entire, his whole frame in full development,-a real man, a magnificent man-fairer than the sons of men, a lamb not only without blemish, but with his powers fully brought out. Such was Jesus Christ--a Lamb of the first year-not a boy, not a lad, not a young man, but a full man, that he might give his soul unto us. 
Spurgeon, C. H. (1998). Vol. 2: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 2.

You cannot measure a man’s grace by the length of his beard, nor by the number of his years.
Spurgeon, C. H. (1998). Vol. 41: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 41 .

One of the old Puritans said that some men are born with beards; and, certainly, there are some believers who, almost as soon as they are converted, seem to take great strides, and to make speedy advances, so that they soon become very useful, and are able even to teach things which others only learn after long years of experience. 
Spurgeon, C. H. (1998). Vol. 44: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 44 .


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## SRoper

tcalbrecht said:


> Hmmm, didn't Bill Gothard teach that beards indicate a lack of humility and were a symbol of rebellion.



Yep, one of my friends was an ATI kid and she informed me of this.


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## KMK

> Pro 20:29 The glory of young men [is] their strength: and the beauty of old men [is] the gray head.



I don't have a lot of glory left, but I am getting more and more beauty everyday. 

Since we are commanded to do all things for the glory of God, I actually think this is a good topic to think about. And the question should not be, "Why should I grow a beard?" because I don't have a choice about that. The question should be, "Why should I shave?"

Perhaps men have perfectly legitimate reasons for shaving, but since the Bible does say _something_ about it, it is a question worth asking.

BTW, how do we come to conclude that the Levitical law against 'marring' the beard was ceremonial? Not arguing, just curious.


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## Coram Deo

The separation of male and female clothing is moral and I would place under the seventh commandment.... Deuteronomy 22:5

So why not the beard for the same reason?


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## KMK

joshua said:


> If we take the beard law as being moral, we must also do so with the bloody animal law, the no fabric mixture law, etc.



I don't disagree, but am asking why.

And even if it is ceremonial, is there any general equity therein?


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## Coram Deo

If a man cannot grow a beard? 

Providentially Hindered? 


What of the rounding off of the hair?

I knew the Amish had to be right about something... 





joshua said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The separation of male and female clothing is moral and I would place under the seventh commandment.... Deuteronomy 22:5
> 
> So why not the beard for the same reason?
> 
> 
> 
> And if a man cannot grow a beard? What of the rounding off of the hair?
Click to expand...


----------



## KMK

joshua said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The separation of male and female clothing is moral and I would place under the seventh commandment.... Deuteronomy 22:5
> 
> So why not the beard for the same reason?
> 
> 
> 
> And if a man cannot grow a beard? What of the rounding off of the hair?
Click to expand...


So, your saying that the beard law cannot be a 'moral' law because some, due to providence, cannot abide by it?

But if a man cannot grow a beard then he cannot break this law. Only men who have been given facial hair by God are capable of breaking this law. Therefore, your reason does not seem to explain why it is considered a 'ceremonial' law.


----------



## KMK

joshua said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if a man cannot grow a beard? What of the rounding off of the hair?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, your saying that the beard law cannot be a 'moral' law because some, due to providence, cannot abide by it?
> 
> But if a man cannot grow a beard then he cannot break this law. Only men who have been given facial hair by God are capable of breaking this law. Therefore, your reason does not seem to explain why it is considered a 'ceremonial' law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, Pastor Klein. My post was unclear.
> 
> I shouldn't have put that quip there. My main reasoning for it _not_ being a ceremonial law is how can the literal understanding of the bear admonitions in Leviticus 19 be extrapolated from the Moral Law.
Click to expand...


That I don't know, other than the 'general equity' which you mentioned earlier.


----------



## LadyFlynt

I could so see this with you 



tcalbrecht said:


> I always wanted a beard like these guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... and the hat and sunglasses ...


----------



## Coram Deo

Thank You brother.. I try.  






Joshua said:


> Michael, you make the fastest growing threads.


----------



## Augusta

Yeah, you said "Father of 9." The hairy one on the far right doesn't count.  



JOwen said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pastor Jerrold,
> 
> Excuse meeeeee. But, based on the best critical and exegetical study of Psa 127:5, it has been determined that you are over the quiver quota limit for "arrows." You have been advised by the magisterium of Calvinistic PooPahs to either pay your annual Exceeding the Approved Quiver Quota Surcharge or . . . throw one of them back. Personally, I would suggest the hairy white one on the far right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL
Click to expand...


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot

http://www.puritanboard.com/f39/big-beards-3496/


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

tcalbrecht said:


> Hmmm, didn't Bill Gothard teach that beards indicate a lack of humility and were a symbol of rebellion.



That's because Gothard can't grow a good beard. He's jealous!


----------



## tcalbrecht

KMK said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we take the beard law as being moral, we must also do so with the bloody animal law, the no fabric mixture law, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree, but am asking why.
> 
> And even if it is ceremonial, is there any general equity therein?
Click to expand...


Is there general equity in the ceremonial law? This is one of the differentiations in the WCF between ceremonial and civil/judicial. The general equity clause only applies to the judicials.

"All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament."


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

I have friends who have argued stuff like this before. Some of them are heavy into picking apart Scripture to figure out the End Times. Others focus specifically on the gifts of the Spirit so they can look spiritual. In fact my son Joshua Caleb and I just studied the tounges issue because some of his friends are pentecostal. I taught him that inward holiness should be his pursuit instead of seeking for spiritual Gifts. I agree with something that Robert Murray M'Cheyne said, "What my people need is my holiness."

I have seen so many guys get off track on outward appearances and studying things that really don't promote holiness of character that it burdens me. If you are in sin because you don't have a beard grow one and start working on inward holiness. That is a battle that is much more noble in God's sight as far as I see it. BTW, I don't believe my beard has ever personally promoted any holiness of character in my person. In fact it has been more of a vanity issue saying notice me. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## KMK

tcalbrecht said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we take the beard law as being moral, we must also do so with the bloody animal law, the no fabric mixture law, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree, but am asking why.
> 
> And even if it is ceremonial, is there any general equity therein?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there general equity in the ceremonial law? This is one of the differentiations in the WCF between ceremonial and civil/judicial. The general equity clause only applies to the judicials.
> 
> "All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament."
Click to expand...


Is the beard law ceremonial because there is no penalty attached to it?


----------



## KMK

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I have friends who have argued stuff like this before. Some of them are heavy into picking apart Scripture to figure out the End Times. Others focus specifically on the gifts of the Spirit so they can look spiritual. In fact my son Joshua Caleb and I just studied the tounges issue because some of his friends are pentecostal. I taught him that inward holiness should be his pursuit instead of seeking for spiritual Gifts. I agree with something that Robert Murray M'Cheyne said, "What my people need is my holiness."
> 
> I have seen so many guys get off track on outward appearances and studying things that really don't promote holiness of character that it burdens me. If you are in sin because you don't have a beard grow one and start working on inward holiness. That is a battle that is much more noble in God's sight as far as I see it. BTW, I don't believe my beard has ever personally promoted any holiness of character in my person. In fact it has been more of a vanity issue saying notice me.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



It is not my intention to argue. I just am not satisfied with the statement made by some when they say, "Obviously...clearly...we all know...that the beard law is ceremonial and therefore is meaningless to us today."

I don't know if the beard promotes holiness or not, but is it possible that there is some wisdom in the law?

Following the dietary laws do not promote holiness but many believe there is wisdom in them.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

KMK said:


> It is not my intention to argue. I just am not satisfied with the statement made by some when they say, "Obviously...clearly...we all know...that the beard law is ceremonial and therefore is meaningless to us today."
> 
> I don't know if the beard promotes holiness or not, but is it possible that there is some wisdom in the law?
> 
> Following the dietary laws do not promote holiness but many believe there is wisdom in them.




It is warmer in the cooler seasons. And warmth is good during that time. And my beard has never been an issue for me during the summer months as it is for some. 

If you ride a bike a long beard feels really neat rubbing your neck. But it forms into a weird bird's nest looking thing when you get off of your bike. Definitely take a comb or brush with you if you do ride a motorcycle. LOL


----------



## DMcFadden

PuritanCovenanter said:


> If you ride a bike a long beard feels really neat rubbing your neck. But it forms into a weird bird's nest looking thing when you get off of your bike. Definitely take a comb or brush with you if you do ride a motorcycle. LOL



Martin, with your Dabneyesque look, a bird's nest would be the least of your possibilites. You could play hide-n-seek in that thing, not to mention using it as a really cool place to hide snacks.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

DMcFadden said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you ride a bike a long beard feels really neat rubbing your neck. But it forms into a weird bird's nest looking thing when you get off of your bike. Definitely take a comb or brush with you if you do ride a motorcycle. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin, with your Dabneyesque look, a bird's nest would be the least of your possibilites. You could play hide-n-seek in that thing, not to mention using it as a really cool place to hide snacks.
Click to expand...


I do retrieve seconds from it sometimes. 

Just to really chime in on the beard issue, I would have to say it would have to be more of a moral law (separation and distinction of the sexes) than a ceremonial law. But it wouldn't be a major issue if you paralleled the issue with long hair as Paul mentions in the following passage.

(1Co 11:14) Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

(1Co 11:15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

(1Co 11:16) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Maybe that is out on a limb. But this passage is about hair and the sexes.


----------



## ModernPuritan?

victorbravo said:


> All I have is my personal experience. When I had a full bushy beard, store security men would follow me around when I was shopping, and young Jewish kids would come up to me to ask for my understanding of the Torah.



Thats a wonderful opportunity to witness to the Jewish folk!


----------



## ModernPuritan?

PuritanCovenanter said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you ride a bike a long beard feels really neat rubbing your neck. But it forms into a weird bird's nest looking thing when you get off of your bike. Definitely take a comb or brush with you if you do ride a motorcycle. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin, with your Dabneyesque look, a bird's nest would be the least of your possibilites. You could play hide-n-seek in that thing, not to mention using it as a really cool place to hide snacks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do retrieve seconds from it sometimes.
> 
> Just to really chime in on the beard issue, I would have to say it would have to be more of a moral law (separation and distinction of the sexes) than a ceremonial law. But it wouldn't be a major issue if you paralleled the issue with long hair as Paul mentions in the following passage.
> 
> (1Co 11:14) Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
> 
> (1Co 11:15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
> 
> (1Co 11:16) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
> 
> Maybe that is out on a limb. But this passage is about hair and the sexes.
Click to expand...



but then what hair does it refer to- most folk today definitely would agree to the top and back of the head, but does it imply facial hair also?


----------



## Zenas

I don't have a beard and can't grow one and I gaurantee I could beat the snot out of Clement. 

I win.


----------



## Zenas

greenbaggins said:


> I think, in all honesty, that the principle is still valid of having men look different than women. I don't think it has to be by means of beard, although that is certainly a rather decisive indication of what sex a person is. The point is that men should not look like women.
> 
> On a side note, if I shaved my beard off, not only would I look like I'm 16 years old, but my children would be scared to death!



You do have a boyish quality to you. 

As a side note, 3 years into my parent's marriage my father shaved his beard off. My mother, up until that point, had never seen her husband without a beard.


----------



## Eoghan

*Are beards really a design flaw?*

When God designed Adam He was designed to have a beard. Why is there so much prejudice about them? I had a mustache until I was married and made a point of NOT shaving it off until I got married.

If we were meant to have facial hair why remove it? Cultural prejudices aside, ignoring all the gillette adverts etc... why do we (men) shave? 

Where does the pressure preventing me regrowing my beard come from?
a) My wife who does not like them
b) My wife who says I will look older
c) My daughter (prompted by my wife) who says she does not like them

Can anyone spot a pattern


----------



## Zenas

My fiance hates them. I told her I would grow one anyway one day and if she won't kiss me, her loss.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

Zenas said:


> I don't have a beard and can't grow one and I gaurantee I could beat the snot out of Clement.
> 
> I win.






> beat the snot out of Clement


 Is that before or after he died?!


----------



## DMcFadden

Zenas said:


> My fiance hates them. *I told her *I would grow one anyway one day and *if she won't kiss me, her loss*.



Wooooo. Can I get dibs on the marital counseling contract?


----------



## lwadkins

I shaved mine a year ago and both my wife and son insisted I grow it back....sheesh


----------



## Quickened

I havent shaved in a while. I think i may just grow one! Good thread gentlemen


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

I've posted this quote in other threads recently, but it seems appropriate here, so hopefully you won't mind the repeat:

Martin Luther wrote to Spalatin on May 14, 1521:


> After being captured I was stripped of my own clothes and dressed in a knight's cloak. I am letting my hair and beard grow so that you would hardly know me...Now I am living in Christian liberty.


----------



## Pergamum

Men grow more armpit hair than women...why couldnt this be a sign of manliness instead. 

Or chest hair! I am a hairy bear and thus could take the cake as the most hairy...i.e. the most manly!


----------



## DMcFadden

JOwen said:


> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.



Ah, er, hmmm . . . you aren't related to Warren Jeffs are you? Do the letters FLDS mean anything to you? Have you ever lived in Utah? 

Actually, that is a mighty fine looking family. What a blessing!


----------



## Pergamum

Eoghan said:


> When God designed Adam He was designed to have a beard. Why is there so much prejudice about them? I had a mustache until I was married and made a point of NOT shaving it off until I got married.
> 
> If we were meant to have facial hair why remove it? Cultural prejudices aside, ignoring all the gillette adverts etc... why do we (men) shave?
> 
> Where does the pressure preventing me regrowing my beard come from?
> a) My wife who does not like them
> b) My wife who says I will look older
> c) My daughter (prompted by my wife) who says she does not like them
> 
> Can anyone spot a pattern




Under this rationale of design, why would we ever cut our hair or trim our finger or toenails either?


----------



## kvanlaan

> So, what would Clement do with this?



Run screaming from the room like everyone else?


----------



## Zenas

Pergamum said:


> Eoghan said:
> 
> 
> 
> When God designed Adam He was designed to have a beard. Why is there so much prejudice about them? I had a mustache until I was married and made a point of NOT shaving it off until I got married.
> 
> If we were meant to have facial hair why remove it? Cultural prejudices aside, ignoring all the gillette adverts etc... why do we (men) shave?
> 
> Where does the pressure preventing me regrowing my beard come from?
> a) My wife who does not like them
> b) My wife who says I will look older
> c) My daughter (prompted by my wife) who says she does not like them
> 
> Can anyone spot a pattern
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under this rationale of design, why would we ever cut our hair or trim our finger or toenails either?
Click to expand...


You're right. Let's stop.


----------



## k.seymore

Lesser known Early Church Father Steve of Sardis wrote, “How womanly it is for one who is a man to manicure himself and clip his nails with a clipper, for the sake of fine effect, and to take a file and smooth them!"

Paul of Tarsus (not the Apostle, but a similarly named church father from the other side of Sardis) wrote, "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man hath short nails, it is a shame unto him?"

And that's all I have to say about that. And yes, my wife complains about my quite long nails regularly.


----------



## bob

This is an intriguing question. My facial hair is short and I shave my cheeks, thus leaving only a goatee, if such it might be called. I have pondered this issue in times past.

Regarding things strangled and blood, I would argue that this law is moral. A similar law was issued in Genesis 9 and was also repeated at the Jerusalem counsel. 

When meat is butchered, the juglar vein is sliced and the blood is drained from the carcass. There is no sin in eating steak as God intended - medium rare. That red liquid seen on the plate isn't blood, it's water. Pagan cultures often ripped right into it, sometimes even before cooking it. Of course, blood has often been drank during pagan sacrifices. I would argue that it is sin to eat meat that has not had the blood drained out.

I do think the issue of the beard is ceremonial - it is not given elsewhere in the Scriptures and would seem to be packaged as laws pertianing to Israel as opposed to laws applied universally to all men. Thus my view is that if you don't desire a beard, shave the whiskers off to the glory of God.

bob


----------



## servantofmosthigh

Then, by Clemente's standard, a "real man" with "superior nature" would be...






Cousin Itt?


----------



## Blue Tick

How about a Mark Twain Avant-garde style?


----------



## Gloria

JOwen said:


> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.



Oh my! You win this one  Beautiful family.


----------



## Nse007

*hi*

I like beards...


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=henv2naXuGo]YouTube - Growing a beard[/ame]


----------



## CatechumenPatrick

I am quite thankful God has blessed me with a thick beard at the age of 20, even one that connects to my unibrow (thanks to my German genes). I plan to grow it out for at least my next two years studying philosophy in school (beards and philosophy go well together I think). Were there any reformed who argued against having a beard? It does seem to be both an unattractive and unprofessional feature in today's society (unless you are in philosophy!).


----------



## Eoghan

*Puritan hair*

Anyone else notice how long the puritans grew their hair? They wouldn't look out of place in a rock band :ROFL:

I guess the length of a mans hair is relative to the womans - so short female hairstyles and I will have to get a crew cut like the army


----------



## Eoghan

If you work in McDonalds and have a beard you have to wear a beard net don't you?


----------



## brymaes

> Anyone else notice how long the puritans grew their hair? They wouldn't look out of place in a rock band :ROFL:


They wore wigs.


----------



## TimV

How do you know you could whoop Clement?


----------



## Zenas

TimV said:


> How do you know you could whoop Clement?



Well, a few reasons actually.

1. I am 6'4 and 255 pounds. I can beat a lot of people up. Unless Clement was exceptionally large or skilled in hand to hand combat, it's unlikely he'd give me much of a fight.

2. People were much smaller back then. Take into account the fact that Clement was an Alexandrian and I am predominately German and you're guaranteed a disproportionate match-up in size and general body build. 

3. I am a Calvinist. We have cold, black hearts which fuels our blood-lust for Arminians, universalists, and Alexandrians. 

4. He didn't have guns. I have a Browning A-5 12 gauge shotgun. 

There are other reasons, but these should prove sufficient to show that I would, with little doubt, absolutely beat Clement with his severed left arm despite my "unmanliness" (in his opinion) in a lack of beard.


----------



## TimV

*this is now in fun*

But like most Alexandrian movers and shakers Clement was Greek, and haven't you seen Hercules on TV? As to body type Greeks tend to be very stocky and have always been good at hand to hand. Besides, you can't pick a guy at a late time in his life and compare him with yourself in your prime. What if the guy was an expert at _pankration_ in his youth? And the idea they "we're bigger now" does have an element of truth, but not as much as some people think. The volcano statues of Pompey have shown us that the people who lived there then were bigger than the people who live in the same area now, and Roman legionaires had to be at least 5 foot 9 before they could inlist. And if you get to take your gun, then it's an escalation that moves away from personal manliness to technological advantage.


----------



## Zenas

TimV said:


> *this is now in fun*
> 
> But like most Alexandrian movers and shakers Clement was Greek, and haven't you seen Hercules on TV? As to body type Greeks tend to be very stocky and have always been good at hand to hand. Besides, you can't pick a guy at a late time in his life and compare him with yourself in your prime. What if the guy was an expert at _pankration_ in his youth? And the idea they "we're bigger now" does have an element of truth, but not as much as some people think. The volcano statues of Pompey have shown us that the people who lived there then were bigger than the people who live in the same area now, and Roman legionaires had to be at least 5 foot 9 before they could inlist. And if you get to take your gun, then it's an escalation that moves away from personal manliness to technological advantage.



However, your data is skewed because it only examines those famous for their physical stature and then presumes that same nature for every Greek. There is no evidence that Clement was of campare to the mythological Hercules, or Pompey. 

Secondly, it's not escalation. He can bring his prized beard, I'll bring my A-5. Fair to me. 

Thirdly, I'm confident I can beat him in his prime. A man of 5'9 is of average size. I am a full 7 inches taller than him. The fact that he might be stocky is of little consequence. As a result of my Germanic heritage, I am broad shouldered and broad chested with a strong lower body.

Call his agent and get him to the States, we'll thrown down right here right now.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian

We're not going to have call the Puritan Bouncer, are we?


----------



## DMcFadden

Zenas said:


> I'm confident I can beat him in his prime. A man of 5'9 is of average size. I am a full 7 inches taller than him. The fact that he might be stocky is of little consequence. As a result of my Germanic heritage, I am broad shouldered and broad chested with a strong lower body.
> 
> Call his agent and get him to the States, we'll thrown down right here right now.



You know, Andrew, you might just have the temperament for a liti*gator*.







On the other hand, if this legal thing doesn't work out, you may have a nice career in the WWE Smackdown.


----------



## Theogenes

Isn't the true test of manhood found in how many bearded children you have...


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

Zenas said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know you could whoop Clement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, a few reasons actually.
> 
> 1. I am 6'4 and 255 pounds. I can beat a lot of people up. Unless Clement was exceptionally large or skilled in hand to hand combat, it's unlikely he'd give me much of a fight.
> 
> 2. People were much smaller back then. Take into account the fact that Clement was an Alexandrian and I am predominately German and you're guaranteed a disproportionate match-up in size and general body build.
> 
> 3. I am a Calvinist. We have cold, black hearts which fuels our blood-lust for Arminians, universalists, and Alexandrians.
> 
> 4. He didn't have guns. I have a Browning A-5 12 gauge shotgun.
> 
> There are other reasons, but these should prove sufficient to show that I would, with little doubt, absolutely beat Clement with his severed left arm despite my "unmanliness" (in his opinion) in a lack of beard.
Click to expand...


All those reasons, and of course, (a fifth reason you forgot to mention), the fact that Clement is DEAD should make him no trouble at all for you!


----------



## KMK

I was reminded of this story this morning:



> 2 Sam 10:4,5 Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, [even] to their buttocks, and sent them away. When they told [it] unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and [then] return.



Notice that the men were ashamed. But by David's answer it seems they were more ashamed of their marred beard than the fact their 'buttocks' was showing!


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Theogenes said:


> Isn't the true test of manhood found in how many bearded children you have...




My seventeen and sixteen year old boys are shaving now.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian

PuritanCovenanter said:


> My seventeen and sixteen year old boys are shaving now.





Brother Snyder,

I really like your latest avatar.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Southern Presbyterian said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> My seventeen and sixteen year old boys are shaving now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother Snyder,
> 
> I really like your latest avatar.
Click to expand...


Here ya go....

I just ordered a plastic helmet. Will post pics when it come in.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> My seventeen and sixteen year old boys are shaving now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother Snyder,
> 
> I really like your latest avatar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here ya go....
> 
> I just ordered a plastic helmet. Will post pics when it come in.
Click to expand...



How could any real helmet (plastic or otherwise) top this? It is original and very creative.


----------



## nicnap

DMcFadden said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pastor Jerrold,
> 
> Excuse meeeeee. But, based on the best critical and exegetical study of Psa 127:5, it has been determined that you are over the quiver quota limit for "arrows." You have been advised by the magisterium of Calvinistic PooBahs to either pay your annual Exceeding the Approved Quiver Quota Surcharge or . . . throw one of them back. Personally, I would suggest the hairy white one on the far right.
Click to expand...



 pfffffttttttbuahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## ServantofGod

JOwen said:


> I thought the true test of manhood was how many kids you have.
> 
> Father of 9.



My dad is more of a man then you are then!

Beautiful family. When I first saw it, I felt a pang of pity for your girls, having to grow up with all those boys! My three sisters have to put up with all seven of us boys, and that is a  better left closed. 


Sir, I highly doubt that you need any advice as a father, from someone as young and inexpierenced as me, but if I could presume upon you for a second: *A man's views and treatment of women depend on how he was raised to treat his sister/s.* Demand respect, protectiveness, and adoration for your daughters from your sons, and demand modesty and mutual respect from your girls. If you want to see a home where the/my parents just missed some of those basic points, you're invited over for a few days to my house.


----------



## raekwon

I just shaved and only have one child. Woe is me!


----------

