# Just debated a sem-pelagian(sp?)



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 10, 2005)

I just debated a semi-pelagian about a minute ago. He is now sleeping on my floor actually....

But I want to throw up what happened while it is fresh in my mind.

Obviously he didn't really have scripture to back up his belief, but he was being very honest and open and seeking to learn why I believed in predestination.

He rightfully believed that we all deserve hell, and that if God did choose some and reject other that he could do so rightfully.

I mentioned total depravity to him and that we are spiritually unable and unwilling to do anything good or acceptable to God. If we are unable to do anything good or acceptable to God then how could we choose God to be accepted or repent-which would be good and acceptable-in our own doing? Faith must be granted to us and so must repentance (i cited verses for these) when someone is not going to be saved by God or reprobate, they do not have the Holy Spirit applying a new nature in them. Therefore all they have is their flesh. God said through Paul in Romans 8:7 “7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” The mind can either be set on the flesh or Spirit. The former can do no good and nothing acceptable to God, the latter can. How can one repent and have faith in God without the Holy Spirit? They can’t 

He said that he thought God just granted faith and repentance to everyone and to some more than others. I responded that the only way we can do good is to yield to the Holy Spirit. Ability to do good is dependent on the new nature applied by the Holy Spirit. So if everyone can have faith and repent, then they must all have the Holy Spirit to yield to. Unless you choose not to believe Romans 8:7. Also if we don’t choose God by ourself, then we are not spiritually dead or helpless in our sin. My southern Baptist grandpa who seems to have zeal in being an “uneducated country preacher” (but is the most loving person I’ve ever met, and who evangelizes left and right, and is pretty saturated with scripture, just bad hermeneutics) would define dead as separated from God. I said dead means that and it means we are helpless to join back to God, dead is helplessness. We are spiritually helpless. 

I then mentioned that to be saved based on a decision from ourselves would be merit. Grace is unmerited favor. God doesn't reward us with salvation based on a decision we make by ourselves. If this was so we could boast that we were worth more than others because of what we did. Thus sharing the glory with God, and not being totally helpless. 

I mentioned that if Christ died for the entire world

a.) He didn't die for the sin of unbelief, because if we have the ability to reject him (unbelief) which is a sin, then he didn't die for that one unless you believe everyone goes to heaven or that unbelief isn’t a sin.

b.) Christ took the punishment of many people in vain. Which means his death wasn't strong enough or that God duped him, but if God duped him then God would not be just, and not God. ( I duno about this defense though… Didn’t Christ just take the equivalent of eternal damnation in hell and then apply that justice to some? I can see this defense breaking apart if that is so.)

After writing this post I realize that my premise to Semi-Pelagians is that unconsciously they are believing God to be injust and nonomnipotent and thus not the God of the Bible. 

Anyway, he was exhausted so he took a nap, and seemed open to it. He said he would sleep on it. I then told him that many times we have unconsious presuppositions that we must filter out and examine and refine.


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## SmokingFlax (Feb 10, 2005)

ok ....now you'd better go take a shower...


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 10, 2005)

> Anyway, he was exhausted so he took a nap, and seemed open to it.



Man, thats some debating there. You tired the guy plum out. I am glad he was open to the nap he is taking!

hahahahahahahahahabuwhahahahahahaha:bigsmile:hahahahahaha

I'm sorry Tim; I'm in a silly mood.


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