# Saving versus Sanctifying Grace?



## Kim G (Jul 28, 2008)

Yesterday my pastor preached on Deuteronomy 8. During our SS hour afterward (in which he answers questions about the message), he made some references to God's grace that confused me.

Here's what he basically said:

God provides *saving *grace. It is all of grace that we are justified.

However, *sanctifying *grace is of works. We must have the desire to be sanctified and keep God's commandments, we must work out our salvation, and if we take all the right steps, God gives us the grace to be sanctified.

If a Christian does not want to be sanctified, he doesn't have to be. God will leave him alone and not help him. God will treat that child like he's an unbeliever and will not extend grace to him until he desires to be sanctified.

????Where is this coming from?

What came to mind was Galatians 3, which calls men "foolish" who think they can be saved by the Spirit but perfected in the flesh. Also Ephesians 2, which says that though we work out our salvation, God works both the will-ing and the do-ing of His pleasure. We don't have to "work up" some good desires in us--God works them in us.

Am I seeing this incorrectly? Any thoughts or advice regarding these statements?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Kim G said:


> Am I seeing this incorrectly? Any thoughts or advice regarding these statements?



I think both you and your pastor are seeing things correctly, though he is emphasizing man's responsibility and you're emphasizing the work of the Holy Spirit. WCF XVI.3 sums it up pretty well:



> Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces that they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.



There are quite a few proof texts, the key being John 15:4-6, Philippians 2:12-13, II Peter 1:3,5,10-11.


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## Kim G (Jul 28, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> I think both you and your pastor are seeing things correctly, though he is emphasizing man's responsibility and you're emphasizing the work of the Holy Spirit.



That may be. But what bothered me was this:

1) He was very adamant that sanctification STARTS with us. We have to work it in ourselves. We have to desire it. (Not, we SHOULD desire it, but we MUST work it in ourselves to get any grace at all.) We are being "saved" by works, not faith.

2) He specifically stated that someone can be a Christian and want nothing to do with sanctification, and God will withhold His grace from them and treat them just like an unbeliever. Does God treat His children like unbelievers? Does He leave us to our own devices? I thought that God chastens His children who do not follow Him. Lack of chastening (i.e., being left alone like an unbeliever) would indicate lack of saving grace in the first place, right?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jul 28, 2008)

1. Sancitification is of the Holy Spirit - if he says it is purely of the flesh he is wrong.

2. What he's saying is an impossibility. Any regenerate believer will desire sanctification on some level. If he does not desire sanctification, God will treat him like an unbeliever because he is an unbeliever! So yes, a lack of desire for sanctification indicates a lack of saving faith to begin with.


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

Kim,

That idea is very, very popular in our neck of the woods. I'm not surprised that your pastor preaches that. It's no different than the "How Do We Get Grace" variety of preaching we heard "on campus." :/

C


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## Scott1 (Jul 28, 2008)

I know there are theological distinctions to be made here and I'm not clearly understanding what you are being taught.

In trying to understand and apply this as a rule of life, start with the definition of "grace." "Grace" is God's unmerited favor. It applies to salvation and it applies to other aspects of life also.

Salvation is by "grace" alone- 100% a work of God that only He can do. 

Sanctification, if I understand it correctly, is a cooperative effort. God certainly provides "grace" but we also make our own choices (sometimes described as "secondary causes" to acknowledge God's overarching providence) but they are our choices in a very real sense.

The Reformers summarized the doctrine of Scripture to say that we are commanded to avail ourselves of the "ordinary means of Grace" (Word, prayer, and the sacraments) to strengthen our faith. This is sanctification. This is why personal, family and corporate worship are so important- they are the ordinary ways God provides the "ordinary means of Grace" for His people.

In a sense, Christians "prove out their salvation" by their works. They don't cause it, but the miraculous change of nature God alone does in the Christian inevitably results in change on the outside. Ordinarily, over time one can see the change "proved out" in the life of one who has been truly converted (by God alone). This is why church discipline is important- to help clarify this with the person involved, for the church watching, and for outsiders.

Remember also that the Bible speaks of gaining rewards and suffering loss in heaven based on what we did on earth. This is not for salvation- nothing could even possibly result in that except Christ's righteousness alone. While the Bible doesn't give us many specifics of the rewards and loss, it is biblical to view our sanctification with that in mind and use the "free will" we are given by God to further it.


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

Scott -- 

What's being taught here is NOT the standard Reformed "We work because God works." What's being said is the usual Keswick/Dispensationalist/Holiness idea that "You do your part and only then God'll respond." 

The clearest exemplar of this idea is stated in this sermon: SermonAudio.com - Getting Grace from God

I blogged about that here as well (with some transcriptions of the sermon itself).

C


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## Kim G (Jul 28, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> In a sense, Christians "prove out their salvation" by their works. They don't cause it, but the miraculous change of nature God alone does in the Christian inevitably results in change on the outside.



Yes. I agree. That is why I was so confused. What can we do to merit "God's unmerited favor"? I would say nothing. My pastor would pull out a list of things.

Obviously, I don't believe in sitting on my couch until God's grace pulls me off and kicks me into doing good works. But God's Spirit inside of me will "inevitably" result in changing me.



queenknitter said:


> What's being taught here is NOT the standard Reformed "We work because God works." What's being said is the usual Keswick/Dispensationalist/Holiness idea that "You do your part and only then God'll respond."
> 
> The clearest exemplar of this idea is stated in this sermon: SermonAudio.com - Getting Grace from God
> 
> I blogged about that here as well (with some transcriptions of the sermon itself).



I know. I read your blog every day. When I heard this from my pastor, I was in a state of shock and immediately remembered what you've been blogging about recently.


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## Scott1 (Jul 28, 2008)

Since this is important to understand, I would find out if the church holds to a confession or statement of faith that addresses this. This might help clarify if this teaching is in line with that or an exception to it. If there is no confession or statement of faith, it may be only the leadership's belief at this point in time and it would be prudent to clarify this with the church leader (maybe ask detailed questions during the "question time"). I think the Ninth commandment would presume we give him the benefit of the doubt now, be charitable, but gain more information.

By the way, I like the idea of a "question time" after the service!


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

I'll be praying for you, Kim. It's tough. We left a year ago yesterday. It's been good because God is good. But that doesn't mean it's easy.

May God give you the discernment, the words, the opportunities, and the courage! 

C


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## moral necessity (Jul 28, 2008)

Kim G said:


> Yesterday my pastor preached on Deuteronomy 8. During our SS hour afterward (in which he answers questions about the message), he made some references to God's grace that confused me.
> 
> Here's what he basically said:
> 
> ...



I'm with you on this, Kim. My former pastor emphasized this in the same way. It was frustrating to me. I called it a Calvinistic justification, with an Arminian sanctification. in my opinion, it leads down the wrong path. I understand why they tend to emphasize things in this way, for they are mainly striving to eliminate us from being passive in sanctification, and just sitting back and waiting on God and not lifting a finger. But, the danger to me was that I didn't end up depending on God enough. My prayer life was poor, and I looked for my strength from within rather than from without. I find God often uses these "sanctification strategies" to get us to the end of our ropes with our efforts, until we finally crash and turn the whole project over to him. He wants the glory in sanctification, and when we acknowledge and honor his responsibility for that work in us is when we're on the right track.

I found it best to understand the dynamic of sanctification with the illustration of 2 dominoes. He pushes the first and it falls into and moves the second. There are first causes and there are second causes. He is the first and we are the second. But, the one is dependent on the other, and ours is never independent apart from his. And so, we become active because he activates us. He causes us to cause. He does not violate the will within us, but he does change our affections so that our will is now moved in a different direction. This keeps all the glory of sanctification where it ought to be........with God.

Hang in there, and be gentle in your dealings with him, as he is beloved by Christ as well.

Blessings and prayers!


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## jwithnell (Jul 28, 2008)

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility must be held in very careful balance in both justification and sanctification. Man is fully responsible for his rebellion against God just as God is fully sovereign in bringing that man to saving faith (justification). God is fully sovereign in our sanctification just as we are fully responsible to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling ..." and to "run the good race." 

I do not believe it is possible for a person to be justified without showing signs of sanctification -- the Bible is clear that we are known by our fruits. 

Also, some of the errors in "New Perspectives" comes from dividing justification and sanctification and by not holding the balances mentioned above. In fact, error in many camps comes from these unbalances. Take, for example, the liberal and neo-orthodox churches that gloss over the need for justification and move on the do-goodisms (usually social activism) of a gospel-less sanctification. Or, in the other extreme, churches that teach how-to-be-saved week after week, but never press their congregations on to maturity and the meat of the scriptures.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> Sanctification, if I understand it correctly, is a cooperative effort. God certainly provides "grace" but we also make our own choices (sometimes described as "secondary causes" to acknowledge God's overarching providence) but they are our choices in a very real sense.
> 
> The Reformers summarized the doctrine of Scripture to say that we are commanded to avail ourselves of the "ordinary means of Grace" (Word, prayer, and the sacraments) to strengthen our faith. This is sanctification. This is why personal, family and corporate worship are so important- they are the ordinary ways God provides the "ordinary means of Grace" for His people.



I agree with the second paragraph that worship, sacraments, and certain Christian practices are important for sanctification, and are the instruments God uses to santfity us. And I agree with part of the first paragraph that we make our own choices. However, I would say that the only reason we make those choices is because of a supernatural transformation of our heart by the Holy Spirit. I'm not disagreeing with you really, just saying that the only way we make the choice to do those practical things that sanctify us is through a regenerated heart.


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## a mere housewife (Jul 28, 2008)

How could we desire to be sanctified unless we had received grace to do so? The desire is from grace, because God has changed us and is renewing our wills. Certainly they're our wills and we use them, but we have Him to thank for our new inclinations, and not ourselves. If we have no new inclinations, then we aren't new creatures. Even as new creatures, we're left in a pretty hopeless situation if we have to work for grace. Rather grace makes us work.

Truly I would be a basket case under such preaching. I am already inclined to be a practical Romanist by nature. This sort of thing would have me living in constant guilt, trying to attain in my own inadequate strength what apparently Christ could not (or would not) attain for me.


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## moral necessity (Jul 28, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> Truly I would be a basket case under such preaching. I am already inclined to be a practical Romanist by nature. This sort of thing would have me living in constant guilt, trying to attain in my own inadequate strength what apparently Christ could not (or would not) attain for me.



As I certainly was!!!

Blessings!


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## JBaldwin (Jul 28, 2008)

queenknitter said:


> Kim,
> 
> That idea is very, very popular in our neck of the woods. I'm not surprised that your pastor preaches that. It's no different than the "How Do We Get Grace" variety of preaching we heard "on campus." :/
> 
> C



Kim, 

This is very popular in our neck of the woods. It is because of the BJU influence in the community. It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"


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## JBaldwin (Jul 28, 2008)

By the way, Kim, if you ever get a notion to come out our way to hear a good message on the grace of God, we'd love to have you. I know our church is too far to drive on a regular basis, but the preaching is refreshing. 

Yesterday, the sermon was on the grace of God, and the pastor reminded of us that without God's grace, we can do nothing, not even accomplish our sanctification. 

This discussion makes me think of Phil. 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (ESV) It seems to me that this verse indicates that what God starts in a person's life, He will complete.


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## wsw201 (Jul 28, 2008)

This sounds like the old Lordship Salvation issue from a while back, or the idea of the carnel christian, ie; the Bill Bright/Campus Crusade view. Either way, what he is saying is not the Reformed view.


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## Ivan (Jul 28, 2008)

Good thread.


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"



Well. . . . how far? Seriously. I'm honestly asking. Sigh. . . . 

My husband and I risked everything professionally to stand up against this stuff. God planned it all, I know. That's so clear. 

Sigh. . . . So? How far?

C


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## py3ak (Jul 28, 2008)

Sanctification is also by grace. Hosea 14 sets that out. The best book on the subject is Walter Marshall, _The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification_. If at all possible, I would recommend that you give this book to your pastor (and of course read it yourself).


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## JBaldwin (Jul 28, 2008)

queenknitter said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"
> ...




I really don't know how far, but be encouraged there are many out there who have not bowed their knees to this theology. You are much closer to it than I am. By the way, it might be fun sometime for you, Kim and I to meet for lunch somewhere. I'm in the Greenville area nearly every week. It's great to have Christian sisters so close by.


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

I would love that! The closer to a playground, the better!! 

C


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## Scott1 (Jul 28, 2008)

Westminster confession of faith



> chapter xvi
> of good works
> i. Good works are only such as god has commanded in his holy word,[1] and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.[2]
> 
> ...


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## turmeric (Jul 28, 2008)

What's BJU? This sounds like some sort of Keswick stuff, but it's hard to imagine that taking root in the PCA.


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## jwithnell (Jul 28, 2008)

BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.


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## queenknitter (Jul 28, 2008)

jwithnell said:


> BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.



BJU = Bob Jones University. The founder was Methodist, but it has since gravitated to a dispie, indy, fundy Baptist market.

C


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## Josh G (Jul 28, 2008)

jwithnell said:


> BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.



You mean you have never heard of BJU?  They say that they are non-denominational, but independent baptist sums it up. 

They are like the buckle of the "Bible Belt."


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## TaylorOtwell (Jul 28, 2008)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and *cause you to walk* in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

*Thy people shall be willing* in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (Psalm 110:3)

The Lord gives us a new heart; therefore, we are willing to obey His commandments. The Lord works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (from Phil 2:13)


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## moral necessity (Jul 28, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and *cause you to walk* in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)
> 
> *Thy people shall be willing* in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (Psalm 110:3)
> 
> The Lord gives us a new heart; therefore, we are willing to obey His commandments. The Lord works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (from Phil 2:13)



Excellent verses, Taylor. My thoughts exactly!


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## Kim G (Jul 28, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I really don't know how far, but be encouraged there are many out there who have not bowed their knees to this theology. You are much closer to it than I am. By the way, it might be fun sometime for you, Kim and I to meet for lunch somewhere. I'm in the Greenville area nearly every week. It's great to have Christian sisters so close by.



That's very sweet. I'd enjoy it very much. I'd just have to plan in advance since I'd have to take a longer lunch break from work.


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## moral necessity (Jul 28, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Sanctification is also by grace. Hosea 14 sets that out. The best book on the subject is Walter Marshall, _The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification_. If at all possible, I would recommend that you give this book to your pastor (and of course read it yourself).



You inspired me to order this tonight, Reuben! I look forward to reading it. Thank you, brother!

Blessings!


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## JBaldwin (Jul 29, 2008)

turmeric said:


> What's BJU? This sounds like some sort of Keswick stuff, but it's hard to imagine that taking root in the PCA.



As was mentioned, Greenville SC is a hot bed for both fundamentalism and Keswick teaching. I attended BJU for a number of years and graduated from a Keswick/Deeper life teaching Bible Institute which is also in Greenville, SC. Many graduates of these schools tend to stick around and join local churches. They are everywhere, and a lot of them have found their way into the local PCA churches. It's sad, but that's the reality of it.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 29, 2008)

Lot of people want sanctification. That's a good thing. People who are serious about religion want to know: "How can I be ethical?" But its usually some form of "what do I have to DO," and not (as it ought to be), "what do I need to BELIEVE?"

I can look at WHAT you do, and come pretty close to being able to tell you what you believe. Don't boast to me about what you believe, show it to me (James 2:18). The irony is, that DOING in order to SHOW OFF (to man? to God?) what you believe will inevitably show how little you believe in the power of God.

Romans 7:9-24 will teach you the frustration that comes when someone says: "OK! Great, now that I am justified, I can finally keep the law, and be God-pleasing!"

The law can't justify, or bring you to the point where God will justify you. Neither can the law sanctify, or bring you to the point where God will give you more grace for more sanctification. "Make the most of what you have" theology is a terrible heartbreaker.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 29, 2008)

Kim G,

I think your summary of what he taught would cause me to ask your Pastor this question:

[KJV]Galatians 3:1-3[/KJV]: _1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?_ 

If this is what he is teaching, I suggest you find a Church that understands that the Gospel is clearly understood by our view of justification and sanctification.

I do not want to minimize our responsibility to strive toward the holy ends we have been set upright for but to state that God gives us grace but that our sanctification ultimately rests on our desire is complete bunk.


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## regenerated (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi Kim G,
A typical arminian approach to the subject of sanctification.
I would ignore it and concentrate on the reformed understanding of sanctification.

cheers


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## Kim G (Jul 29, 2008)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Kim G,
> 
> I think your summary of what he taught would cause me to ask your Pastor this question:
> 
> [KJV]Galatians 3:1-3[/KJV]: _1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?_



I _did _ask my pastor that very question. I read him those specific verses. And he said what queenknitter always said would happen--he said that Galatians is talking about specific Judiazers in Galatia, and that the situation doesn't apply to us.



> If this is what he is teaching, I suggest you find a Church that understands that the Gospel is clearly understood by our view of justification and sanctification.
> 
> I do not want to minimize our responsibility to strive toward the holy ends we have been set upright for but to state that God gives us grace but that our sanctification ultimately rests on our desire is complete bunk.



Thank you for the advice. My husband and I are very new at all of this. We don't want to have a "knee-jerk" reaction by jumping out of one church and into another without having solidified what we believe and what kind of church we ought to attend. Not to mention, we love our church family and the thoughtfulness that our pastor usually exhibits. (And and my hubbie still has another semester at Bob Jones University before we can leave.)


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## Scott1 (Jul 29, 2008)

> Kim G
> Puritanboard
> 
> Thank you for the advice. My husband and I are very new at all of this. We don't want to have a "knee-jerk" reaction by jumping out of one church and into another without having solidified what we believe and what kind of church we ought to attend.


You're right. As I read the Ninth Commandment questions in the Westminster Larger Catechism, it says we generally first owe giving people the benefit of the doubt, trying to see the best and be charitable, particularly toward those in the household in faith. This is another high aspect of God's law we cannot possibly keep but only try by God's grace. But it means we are careful, and charitable generally, even in assessing doctrine. We all have a tendency, in our fallen nature, to find instant fault, even in small detail, leave a church, slander the believers there, and then repeat the pattern. There are many who, in doing this, never really submit to the Body of Christ nor fully participate in it.

One of the things I have found to be of great benefit are Confessions and (substantive)Statements of Faith. They provide a basis for unity and can further the peace and purity of the church. If the church holds to one of the historic confessions, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Baptist Confession of Faith, one has an idea of what they officially believe, at least, regarding major doctrine.

Without a Confession of Faith or substantive statement of faith, the teaching and beliefs tend to fall back on what the denominational leader or local leader believes at that time. This can change as the leader either grows in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, goes off on wrong doctrine, or apostasizes. Because the church is so centered on the person of the leader, with no clear doctrine memorialized, it can benefit but it can also harm a lot of people.

Having a Confession is not intended to cover every doctrine but something as significant as sanctification needs to be defined- for the peace and purity of the church.


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## Kim G (Jul 29, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> One of the things I have found to be of great benefit are Confessions and (substantive)Statements of Faith. They provide a basis for unity and can further the peace and purity of the church.



My husband found a copy of our church's constitution, which includes a statement of faith. I have bolded the section on sanctification. This is a complete contradiction to what the pastor very explicitly stated on Sunday (even after being questioned).



CBC Statement of Faith said:


> *Section 1: Scripture*
> We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Since the Scriptures are God-breathed in the original autographs, inspiration extends to the very words of the Bible so that the entire Bible, and only the Bible, is the Word of God.
> 
> As such, the Bible is infallible, inerrant, and our only rule of faith and practice.
> ...


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## Scott1 (Jul 29, 2008)

> Contra_Mundum
> 
> Romans 7:9-24 will teach you the frustration that comes when someone says: "OK! Great, now that I am justified, I can finally keep the law, and be God-pleasing!"
> 
> The law can't justify, or bring you to the point where God will justify you. Neither can the law sanctify, or bring you to the point where God will give you more grace for more sanctification. "Make the most of what you have" theology is a terrible heartbreaker.



Is this a fair summary of sanctification?

Would it be fair to say the reason the law cannot justify us is that we cannot _possibly _keep it?

Would it be fair to say Romans 7:9-24 speaks of someone who misunderstands his ability- he cannot possibly perfectly keep the law, which Jesus expanded upon particularly in the Sermon on the Mount, to say that it applies broadly in thought, word, and deed and that we violate it all the time in these ways.

Jesus alone could perfectly keep the law, that's why our faith must be directed toward Him because there is no other basis for justification other than Christ's perfect righteousness alone.

Our sanctification is a process of "getting better at it" (keeping God's law) realizing that we are dependent on God througout the process and we will never fully attain it in this life. Yet we are exhorted, indeed are commanded to move toward that end and are responsible to God for trying to do so. In part, the visible church holds us accountable toward that end.


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## Scott1 (Jul 29, 2008)

Maybe Reverend Buchanan and some others can comment on the Statement of Faith.



> C. Sanctification—Whereas regeneration is a one-time event in the life of the believer, sanctification is a continuing process by which God gradually transforms him into the image of Christ. This process will be completed when believers join Christ in heaven, perfected in holiness.
> (John 17:17; II Cor. 3:18; Eph. 5:26; I John 3:2; Acts 20:32)
> 
> D. Preservation—Since salvation is based solely upon the grace of God and not on the merit of the individual, everyone who truly accepts Christ as Savior is eternally secure in his salvation and is kept by God’s power. Scripture, however, gives a solemn warning to those who profess salvation but whose lives give no evidence of change because of the willful, continual practice of sin.
> (John 6:37, 39; 10:27-30; Rom. 8:38-39; I Pet. 1:5; II Pet. 1:10; I John 3:7-10; James 2:14-26)



The sanctification section (and the preservation) statements while minimal, look biblical.

The Separation section may be more indicative of what is going on here.



> Section 7: Separation
> We believe that Scripture commands God’s people to be holy and separate from all polluting influences, including sin, disobedient brethren, and false teachers.



"Separation" (separatism) is related to Sanctification. This is more difficult for me to understand clearly because there is certainly some truth in separating from sin, the world system, but it's not the whole story.

Fundamentalism tends toward "separatism" while Reformed theology tends toward "transformation" of peoples, cultures and institutions. Reformed theology leans more toward transformation also because of eschatological views, that is that Christ is actually redeeming culture, too. "Transformational" is appealing, but hard to live out.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 29, 2008)

Kim G said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Kim G,
> ...



Galatians very much applies to anyone who would add to the Gospel - whether of the Judaizing variety or a different sort. Very alarming that a person would feel immune to this danger. Paul was writing to Gentiles when he asked them that question.

I agree with your sentiment not to be knee-jerk. I didn't intend by my comments that you ought to jump ship next weekend. I am simply concerned that this pattern of the Gospel is being taught. I have only your report of what was taught to go by. I realize it is a second-hand report so I want to be careful, which is why I stated that, based on your summary of what he taught, it would not be a place I would likely stay at for very long if the Pastor had this idea of sanctification fully ensconced. It is another Gospel.


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## wsw201 (Jul 29, 2008)

> I did ask my pastor that very question. I read him those specific verses. And he said what queenknitter always said would happen--he said that Galatians is talking about specific Judiazers in Galatia, and that the situation doesn't apply to us.



Kim,

Just for your own edification, you might want to ask him what other parts of Scripture do not apply to us. It could be very telling.


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## queenknitter (Jul 29, 2008)

wsw201 said:


> > I did ask my pastor that very question. I read him those specific verses. And he said what queenknitter always said would happen--he said that Galatians is talking about specific Judiazers in Galatia, and that the situation doesn't apply to us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My husband and I made this church sign at churchsigngenerator.com to memorialize that identical response we got from current BJU president, Stephen Jones.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 29, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> Maybe Reverend Buchanan and some others can comment on the Statement of Faith.
> 
> 
> > C. Sanctification—Whereas regeneration is a one-time event in the life of the believer, sanctification is a continuing process by which God gradually transforms him into the image of Christ. This process will be completed when believers join Christ in heaven, perfected in holiness.
> ...



The statements are unobjectionable in themselves. The prooftexts focus on the WORK of God, regarding sanctification. And the last 3 'preservation' texts speak of living righteously. Nothing there about how they confess God works to grow us in grace.

Bottom line, if you start off with a synergistic understanding of salvation, you will end up with synergism everywhere.


> A. Regeneration—*When* an individual responds in faith to the Gospel, repents of his sin and turns to Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit [*then*] causes a spiritual change...


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## queenknitter (Jul 29, 2008)

Semper Fidelis said:


> It is another Gospel.



It's reassuring to me to hear you say it that clearly. I know this is Kim's thread, but she's facing the same exact thing that my husband and I faced at year ago in the exact same place. And sometimes when you're in the middle of it, and you've got out your Bible and your Berkhof, and you hear it you think, "That's not right! . . . Or am I crazy?" And everyone says that you're crazy -- everyone! But you go back to Scripture. . . . 

That's one of the things I find such a relief in the Presbyterian churches I've visited. The Gospel is just stated as clear as day. 

C


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## py3ak (Jul 29, 2008)

It's ironic that that's the reply, "well, that was specific to Galatians and doesn't apply to us." So egalitarians, "Well, that was specific to Corinth and doesn't apply to us." So, to a fundamentalist, why does the remark, "Well, separation was specific to the situation in Rome and doesn't apply to us" not quite cut it? How long do we have to wait before some interested crowd starts saying, "Well, discipline for incest was peculiar to Corinth and doesn't apply to us"?


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## queenknitter (Jul 31, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> II Peter 1:3,5,10-11.



Help me out here. In this part of Christendom -- Kim's and my former part -- this passage is one of the KEY passages used to prove that you've gotta work, work, work to earn sanctifying grace. In fact, a book just came out a few weeks ago about that very passage. And I can't shake that fundy interpretation of that passage. 

I don't know if I'm even making my question clear here. At the very least, can you all point me to a Reformed article or understanding of the passage so I can clear my head?

Thanks.

C


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## JBaldwin (Jul 31, 2008)

I think the key is verse 1:3 _*His divine power has granted to us **all things *that pertain to life and godliness, *through the knowledge of him *who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence,_


It says that all things that pertain to life and godliness are granted by God. To me that pretty much sums it up. It is also "through the knowledge of Him who called us." I haven't done a study on the word "knowledge", but I would be willing to guess that it has something to do with experiential knowledge and not head knowledge. Living godly is all about knowing Christ. 

My


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## Bygracealone (Jul 31, 2008)

I recommend the following work concerning this subject:

"The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification" by Walter Marshall This is a classic work which provides the Biblical basis for understanding sanctification to be a monergistic work of the Lord in our lives. 

It can be purchased here: Reformation Heritage Books


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 31, 2008)

Bygracealone said:


> I recommend the following work concerning this subject:
> 
> "The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification" by Walter Marshall This is a classic work which provides the Biblical basis for understanding sanctification to be a monergistic work of the Lord in our lives.
> 
> It can be purchased here: Reformation Heritage Books



 It's also online here:

Links and Downloads Manager - Christian Walk Links - The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification - The PuritanBoard


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## queenknitter (Jul 31, 2008)

Heeeey! Thanks! I had just put Marshall's book on my Wishlist per someone's earlier recommendation on this thread. But free and immediate is even better!! THANKS!!!

C


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## moral necessity (Jul 31, 2008)

queenknitter said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> > II Peter 1:3,5,10-11.
> ...




I had problems escaping the fundamentalist perspective on this passage as well until more recently. Their approach said that God has given you all of the tools, and now you must go and use them to work out your sanctification. There was no more grace needed to be sought after any longer for it. No prayer really necessary. Just get up and start doing, they would say. And, if you don't, then you are bringing doubt as to your calling and election. But, the passage is not saying that at all. I think it's saying the exact opposite, that the reason one does not have these qualities added much into their lives is because they doubt their forgiveness, and that they have left the cross (verse 9).

in my opinion, as said above, everything we need for life and godliness is granted to us, but it is throught the knowledge of him. So, how are we to better know him? Well, we need to try to not steer ourselves away from Christ and the cross in the first place. These qualities that we strive to add to our faith in the work of Christ, as verse 8 says, tend to keep us from doing so, from being ineffectual in our knowing of Christ, and keep us from being unfruitful in that knowing of Christ. Behavior and thoughts that are opposite tend to divert us from Christ and the cross, and make us ineffectual in knowing him more fully. Verse 9 adds that, if these qualities are lacking, the reason is not necessarily because one is not a Christian, but because one who is has forgotten that he already is one, because he has been diverted from the cross. Their eyes have been turned from the reality of their justification and right standing with God (that they have already been cleansed from their former sins), for the reality of our justification produces an increasing affection for Christ that causes us to strive to add these qualities in our lives. Grace teaches us and motivates us to deny ungodliness, etc... So, therefore verse 10 says that we are to resolve the issue of our calling and election, to make it sure in our minds by resting our assurance on the finished work of Christ, and rest in faith in that, as verse 9 says, we have already had our sins washed away. For, out of assurance flows a freeness to love Christ, to practice holiness so as to not be distracted back into the world away from the cross, and thereby become unfruitful in our knowledge of him. And therefore, the stumbling of our faith will be lessened, and our walk will be more rich and lively, and we will be more established in our knowledge of Christ, which, as verse 3 says, is where everything that pertains to life and godliness for us is to be had. That's how I tend to see it for now.

Blessings!


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