# Usefulness of philosophy to the study of theology



## cih1355 (Mar 21, 2009)

What is the usefulness of philosophy to the study of theology? I was thinking that philosophy can help one find the presuppositions behind an idea or draw out the implications of an idea. Do you have any thoughts on this?


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Mar 21, 2009)

I just ordered _Reasons for Faith: Philosophy in the Service of Theology_. It'll be here in a couple of days . Anyway, it may answer your questions  

Reasons for Faith: Philosophy in the Service of Theology :: Scott K. Oliphint :: Contemporary Authors :: Modern Authors :: Monergism Books :: Reformed Books and Resources for Christians


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## CatechumenPatrick (Mar 21, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> I just ordered _Reasons for Faith: Philosophy in the Service of Theology_. It'll be here in a couple of days . Anyway, it may answer your questions
> 
> Reasons for Faith: Philosophy in the Service of Theology :: Scott K. Oliphint :: Contemporary Authors :: Modern Authors :: Monergism Books :: Reformed Books and Resources for Christians



  
In fact, I am of the opinion that this book of Oliphint's is the best single work directly on the topic that can help we Reformed understand this question.


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## BrianLanier (Mar 22, 2009)

Here are some useful words from Professor Michael Sudduth:

“Taking the Fabric to the Cleaners”

It is my opinion that Christians need WAY more philosophical training, especially, critical thinking and logic.


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## Grymir (Mar 22, 2009)

Theology is the queen of the sciences, and philosophy her handmaiden. From philosophy comes the sciences. (Biology, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Physics, Psychology)

The scientists of today have it backwards. They work from the sciences to philosophy to theology. That causes all kinds of problems. Take evolution for example. The questions of man's origins is a question of history, not science. Do we move from the particulars to the universals? Or do we move from the universals to the particulars? These are some of the questions that philosphy answers.


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## BrianLanier (Mar 22, 2009)

Grymir said:


> Take evolution for example. The questions of man's origins is a question of history, not science.QUOTE]
> 
> This seems false. Why can't it be both?


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 22, 2009)

BrianLanier said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > Take evolution for example. The questions of man's origins is a question of history, not science.QUOTE]
> ...


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## BrianLanier (Mar 22, 2009)

ChristianTrader said:


> BrianLanier said:
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> > Grymir said:
> ...


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## Davidius (Mar 22, 2009)

Aside from any particular philosophical construct, I think that the most basic benefit of philosophical training is the ability to think in terms of implication. Most people say all kinds of things without taking a moment to think of what follows naturally from what they're saying.


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## charliejunfan (Mar 22, 2009)

Philosophy is very important when studying scripture, the loss of philosophy in Bible study is one of the main reasons why Arminians and the like who are actually saved are blinded to what the Bible actually says, instead of studying the bible they just "read" it, there is no logical conclusions or consistancy between verses


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## BrianLanier (Mar 22, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> Philosophy is very important when studying scripture, the loss of philosophy in Bible study is one of the main reasons why Arminians and the like are blinded to what the Bible actually says, instead of studying the bible they just "read" it, there is no logical conclusion



The only problem with this is the fact that the majority of _philosophically trained_ Christians (professional philosophers of religion) are *not* reformed with respect to salvation.


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 22, 2009)

BrianLanier said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> > Philosophy is very important when studying scripture, the loss of philosophy in Bible study is one of the main reasons why Arminians and the like are blinded to what the Bible actually says, instead of studying the bible they just "read" it, there is no logical conclusion
> ...



Which implies that because one is a professional does not imply that one does good work in all areas.

CT


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Mar 22, 2009)

charliejunfan said:


> Philosophy is very important when studying scripture, the loss of philosophy in Bible study is one of the main reasons why Arminians and the like are blinded to what the Bible actually says, instead of studying the bible they just "read" it, there is no logical conclusion



I thought Arminians were blinded by the devil and/or their depravity...


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## charliejunfan (Mar 22, 2009)

You be right yo, thats why we have guns

I guess I should clarify, the church needs Van Til or even Gordon Clark thinking

To Jonathan, yes they are, but a cause has means, you know what I means? Lol....sorry, that was lame


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## CubsIn07 (Apr 9, 2009)

I would recommend Diogenes Allen's "Philosophy for Studying Theology"


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## DonP (Apr 9, 2009)

My experience has been ministers who have strong philosophical minds and enjoy the study of philosophy make poor preachers. 

They tend to speak over the heads of most people, and all the children, they are often less practical, applicatory and experiential and stay up in the clouds of hypothetical and abstract doctrinal and apologetic. 

Were one to be able to control this passion and ground oneself during thr sermon I think it has some use and benefit. 

But I do not need to know all of the errors and proof for them of all of the philosophers for the last 4000 years to advance my walk with Christ. 

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other's well-being. 
NKJV

Just the opinion of some people in the pew. Not saying it is right. Don't need to be corrected or philosophized. Just sharing what many express and why they leave churches if it may be of help to anyone reading. 
Because most people are intimidated by these men and will not speak up to tell them this oversight they may be blind to. 
God has not made us all philosophical minded or highly intellectual. 
So preach as to be understood by these sheep:
1 Cor 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. NKJV


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 9, 2009)

Logic is probably one of the most important tools when studying scripture as several of our members have mentioned here already. There is a lot of logical conclusions that occur from making several assertions. Good thinking must always be inline with good exegesis. Not to mention the study of semantics will help out anyone in any field.


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## CatechumenPatrick (Apr 9, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> My experience has been ministers who have strong philosophical minds and enjoy the study of philosophy make poor preachers.
> 
> They tend to speak over the heads of most people, and all the children, they are often less practical, applicatory and experiential and stay up in the clouds of hypothetical and abstract doctrinal and apologetic.



Such as philosopher-ministers like Jonathan Edwards, Augustine, Van Til, even Calvin? I'm assuming you mean ministers alive today, in which case I would say most of the problems of bad preaching today seem to have less to do with being philosophically inclined, more to do with being theological inept and a-literate. See Professor Clark's recent comments on that note: Why Johnny Can’t Preach (3) Heidelblog


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 9, 2009)

CatechumenPatrick said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > My experience has been ministers who have strong philosophical minds and enjoy the study of philosophy make poor preachers.
> ...



I completely agree. Most of the "bad teaching" isn't based on over intellectualism but because of lazyness and ignorance. The "preachers" that tend to have megachurches are those that seem more like life coaches more than ministers of God works. In order to articulate God's work precision is essential, peoples attention span now a days is short they rather have someone tell them that God wants them to have a nice car and a big house rather than to spend 3 hours trying to figure out theological systems.


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## DonP (Apr 9, 2009)

ChristianTrader said:


> BrianLanier said:
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> > Grymir said:
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## CatechumenPatrick (Apr 10, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> We can never reason ourselves to God, or truth. It is only by Grace we can know God.
> Therefore the premise of philosophy or flawed. They can't know truth. They will always be limited by their fallen nature which impairs the mind and the deception of the devil on top of it.



What do you mean "we can never reason ourselves . . . to truth"? And do you mean that non-Christians cannot know any truths, or any truths about God? Can't non-Christians know that if P, then Q--P--therefore, Q? Can't they know many truths of mathematics, physics, science? 



PeaceMaker said:


> and in the last 5-10 years the advances in sciences like biochemistry, and glycobiology have pretty well proven we could not have evolved from monkeys and that there has to be intelligent design.
> 
> But most people do not know enough biochemistry to know this.
> 
> So please be careful to elevate philosophy above other fields of study just because you like it or have knowledge of its value. It may just be a bias if you do not have a similar experience with advanced recent biochem and glycobiology.



In some sense, for the Christian, philosophy is closer to theology than any other discipline. E.g., for the Christian, metaphysics at bottom is theology proper and the doctrine of creation. Epistemology is constituted by our doctrines of revelation and illumination. Ethics is, well, that one should be obvious. 
And by the way, biochemistry cannot *prove* intelligent design. That requires philosophical arguments as well. Biochemistry makes and rests on philosophical assumptions; philosophy does not rest on assumptions of biochemistry.


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