# Paying Pastor and and Paying for Spiritual Material



## Kinghezy (Jan 11, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I maybe am misunderstand[ing] the concept of a "workman is worth for his hire". I simply can not imagine Paul selling for hire one of his letters back then.....or even in our day.
> 
> I also would give the benefit of the doubt the Pastor may not have any financial stake in his writings at all.



@earl40 I will bite. 


Regarding a pastor being paid, how would you interpret the following as not expecting payment? Paul not being paid, to me, seems to be the exception , but then again what he was doing was unique._1 Corinthians 9:8-14 "Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain. Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, i*s it too much if we reap material things from you*? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless*, we have not made use of this right, *but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that *those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel*. "_
The thing you were responding to was a journal article, not a pastor's letter to the congregation. I think they are two different categories. If we are engaging about a journal that covers spiritual things, didn't the Reformation eliminate the view that there are two classes: the professional Christians and the lay Christian? If so, if secular journal can expect money, shouldn't a spiritual journal as well?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 11, 2019)

Conversely, if a pastor should not accept payment for his labors on an article or book, either one must say, I as a publiser should expect to be provided for free commentaries etc. to publish for profit for myself, or neither should I publish for a profit (as the goal). Is something like the late Dr. Sproul's ministry automatically classed as selling the gospel for gain because they sell stuff to support that ministry, raise enough to build a big fancy church, build a legacy ministry, etc.? It may be there is a line somewhere between saying the pastor cannot make anything, and crossing over into self-seeking and making a gain out of the gospel, as Paul was to be accused of by the Corinthians and why he chose not to receive anything from them, but who is fit to draw that line? The lesson from Paul is that we should allow offense to dictate on this question, but that is not the normal situation but the abnormal one.

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## earl40 (Jan 11, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> @earl40 I will bite.
> 
> 
> Regarding a pastor being paid, how would you interpret the following as not expecting payment? Paul not being paid, to me, seems to be the exception , but then again what he was doing was unique._1 Corinthians 9:8-14 "Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain. Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, i*s it too much if we reap material things from you*? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless*, we have not made use of this right, *but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that *those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel*. "_
> The thing you were responding to was a journal article, not a pastor's letter to the congregation. I think they are two different categories. If we are engaging about a journal that covers spiritual things, didn't the Reformation eliminate the view that there are two classes: the professional Christians and the lay Christian? If so, if secular journal can expect money, shouldn't a spiritual journal as well?



Regarding your first point I agree a Pastor is allowed to receive wages for his ministry and have absolutely no problem with such.

Towards your second point and questions. I would say the Reformation kept kept the officers of the church, with their duties, separate than the laity. Also I would say a publishing house would be a business and not a ministry in the biblical sense of what a ministry is with it's Ministers.


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## Kinghezy (Jan 12, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Regarding your first point I agree a Pastor is allowed to receive wages for his ministry and have absolutely no problem with such.
> 
> Towards your second point and questions. I would say the Reformation kept kept the officers of the church, with their duties, separate than the laity. Also I would say a publishing house would be a business and not a ministry in the biblical sense of what a ministry is with it's Ministers.



My apologies then, I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I took what you said to mean that you were equating the article in question with a letter from a pastor to a congregation. But sounds like you are keeping them separated and your concern is a pastor who has a pay per each service he does in his work?


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## earl40 (Jan 14, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Conversely, if a pastor should not accept payment for his labors on an article or book, either one must say, I as a publiser should expect to be provided for free commentaries etc. to publish for profit for myself, or neither should I publish for a profit (as the goal).



If asked I suspect many Pastors would be willing to teach and write articles for free. What I am saying overall to think a Pastor expects payment for ministering seems off. As to what I referenced before.....Can you imagine asking Jesus or Paul to write or teach anything with an expectation of payment for a particular service.






NaphtaliPress said:


> Is something like the late Dr. Sproul's ministry automatically classed as selling the gospel for gain because they sell stuff to support that ministry, raise enough to build a big fancy church, build a legacy ministry, etc.?.



I personally would label his "ministry" a business, like your publishing is a business. Now in saying this I have no problem with either businesses.



NaphtaliPress said:


> It may be there is a line somewhere between saying the pastor cannot make anything, and crossing over into self-seeking and making a gain out of the gospel, as Paul was to be accused of by the Corinthians and why he chose not to receive anything from them, but who is fit to draw that line? The lesson from Paul is that we should allow offense to dictate on this question, but that is not the normal situation but the abnormal one.



I hear you and totally believe a workman should be recomposed for his work. The question remains....When would one label that work a Ministry or a business?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 14, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I personally would label his "ministry" a business, like your publishing is a business. Now in saying this I have no problem with either businesses.


So a minister nowadays can sell a set of lectures or sermons he's preached if he calls it a publishing business like Paul had a tent business, but if he simply adds the money to his personal income support in the work of the gospel without that distinction, it is not okay? I think that is a rather artificial distinction and sort underscores the difficulty in what you are trying to maintain.

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## Jack K (Jan 14, 2019)

Let's say we establish that a minister (or even some other worker in the church) may be paid by his church and ought to be paid if the resources are available. This seems clear to me not only from a handful of New Testament verses but from the Old Testament pattern that had the Levites receiving various shares. They got paid out of the tithes of others so they could devote their attention to the Lord's work.

Now the issue becomes not the paying of ministers by a church, but the propriety of a minister making side income out of his gospel teaching. There are some ministers who insist on providing books and other recourses they write for free. There can be many good reasons to do this, especially if they can find a low-cost way to distribute those books and articles and such.

But if a minister wants to use a Christian publisher, there are many practical reasons why it is good for the publisher to pay him royalties or otherwise compensate him. It is not only fair payment for his skills and efforts, it also adds a level of financial accountability that encourages deadlines to be met, provides legal protections, and promotes cooperation at all stages between the publisher and the writer. The financial incentive in Christian publishing is usually rather small, just enough to provide that accountability but not something that makes many writers or others in the business rich.

The question, then, is whether there ought to be a Christian publishing industry at all. Maybe churches or denominations should be overseeing, funding, and providing all our written resources and paying pastor-authors as they see fit. That is an intriguing thought. It already happens to an extent. But to make it exclusive would require better cooperation than we have now and an unselfish commitment to minister to people outside of a church's own congregation or denominational camp. I like the thought, personally, if it would work. But I don't see it working anytime soon, and the system we have now is not such a bad one. We do have unprecedented access to great Christian writing.

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## earl40 (Jan 15, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> So a minister nowadays can sell a set of lectures or sermons he's preached if he calls it a publishing business like Paul had a tent business, but if he simply adds the money to his personal income support in the work of the gospel without that distinction, it is not okay? I think that is a rather artificial distinction and sort underscores the difficulty in what you are trying to maintain.



My contention he (Pastors) should not be in the business of selling ones sermons. Now if you sell them, fine and dandy. Making and selling tents is categorically different than selling The Word from a Minister.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> My contention he (Pastors) should not be in the business of selling ones sermons. Now if you sell them, fine and dandy.



The origin of this thread came from Chris stating he had permission to quote from an article by David VanDrunen.

So the concern that prompted all this was whether a pastor can claim control over his work. If it is OK for RC Sproul to make that claim, how is it different for DVD?

And further, what would one think of a publisher who routinely borrowed from another's work without permission?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 15, 2019)

earl40 said:


> My contention he (Pastors) should not be in the business of selling ones sermons. Now if you sell them, fine and dandy. Making and selling tents is categorically different than selling The Word from a Minister.


So if I sell them and pay him a royalty it is okay, but for him to sell them directly, it is not okay? Or do you mean he should not even get a royalty for them?


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## Bill The Baptist (Jan 15, 2019)

There is no question that ministers deserve to be paid a fair and decent wage. I think this is clearly established in Scripture. I do sometimes question if there is a line somewhere that some may have crossed. Most of the very prominent pastors with large publishing ministries (MacArthur, Sproul, etc.) are or were millionaires.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 15, 2019)

It's a nice if modern problem to face. Spurgeon's ministry ensured he enjoyed some of the finer things, correct? Let the few that attain superstar status like this face the problems of wealth and temptations of a legacy ministry which are somewhat unique to that status, but let's not deny the ability of the vast majority of ministers to choose how they utilize their materials they first delivered in their pulpit ministries. 


Bill The Baptist said:


> There is no question that ministers deserve to be paid a fair and decent wage. I think this is clearly established in Scripture. I do sometimes question if there is a line somewhere that some may have crossed. Most of the very prominent pastors with large publishing ministries (MacArthur, Sproul, etc.) are or were millionaires.

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## JimmyH (Jan 15, 2019)

Perhaps it is beside the point of this topic, but it irritates me that this came up, because of three pastors, whom I know personally, who don't always get a paycheck for their pastoral ministry and preaching. This due to their congregations waxing and waning in size, and in finances. 

If I know three pastors in my little corner of the world, from two different denominations, who are not only not getting rich, but are struggling, how many more are selflessly giving of themselves to shepherd and feed the flock ?


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## Kinghezy (Jan 15, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Let the few that attain superstar status like this face the problems of wealth and temptations of a legacy ministry which are somewhat unique to that status, but let's not deny the ability of the vast majority of ministers to choose how they utilize their materials they first delivered in their pulpit ministries.



Some of those ministries (for lack of a better word), serve as an additional resources for local churches or for personal use. I do not buy that it is all vain-glory.


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## py3ak (Jan 15, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Spurgeon's ministry ensured he enjoyed some of the finer things, correct?



I am not sure how long it lasted, but he wasn't insulated from financial worries at all times. For instance, I recall reading that he wrote the book _Eccentric Preachers_ in order to make some money. But he was able to travel to France for his health as needed.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 15, 2019)

Agreed; but problems with such are public enough to grant we cannot be blind to the fact that that kind of success brings on its own share of issues, temptations, etc. I'm just saying that that should not negate the rights of all pastors to discern how to best use the materials they produce in the course of their regular ministry.


Kinghezy said:


> Some of those ministries (for lack of a better word), serve as an additional resources for local churches or for personal use. I do not buy that it is all vain-glory.


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## Kinghezy (Jan 15, 2019)

@NaphtaliPress I do not disagree. I was thinking of Ligioner and how it fits @Jack K example of being able to distribute low cost material and I think they have some initiatives for non-English content. They have some "gift of any amount" at times that you can get some good resources, not that I need more of a backlog to read/listen to.

I obviously cannot speak for Sproul himself.


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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

Is Paul talking about a local pastor or a church planting evangelist?

Should the sheep pay to be discipled ?



Kinghezy said:


> @earl40 I will bite.
> 
> 
> Regarding a pastor being paid, how would you interpret the following as not expecting payment? Paul not being paid, to me, seems to be the exception , but then again what he was doing was unique._1 Corinthians 9:8-14 "Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain. Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, i*s it too much if we reap material things from you*? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless*, we have not made use of this right, *but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that *those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel*. "_
> The thing you were responding to was a journal article, not a pastor's letter to the congregation. I think they are two different categories. If we are engaging about a journal that covers spiritual things, didn't the Reformation eliminate the view that there are two classes: the professional Christians and the lay Christian? If so, if secular journal can expect money, shouldn't a spiritual journal as well?


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## Kinghezy (Jan 15, 2019)

BG said:


> Is Paul talking about a local pastor or a church planting evangelist?


I do not see him differentiating the two. It seems like his criteria is those who "proclaim the gospel". That seems to fit someone with a settled congregation and someone planting.


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## iainduguid (Jan 15, 2019)

BG said:


> Should the sheep pay to be discipled ?


According to Paul, the answer is yes: Galatians 6:6:
The one who is taught the message must share all his good things with the teacher. (Gal. 6:6 CSB)

(Of course, Paul is also eager to offer discipling free of charge under certain circumstances, as he says in 1 Cor. 9:18, but he sees that as the exception not the norm.)

But I haven't seen anyone arguing for charging admission to church (though seat rents were a thing in church history). The issue is what a pastor may legitimately do outside the regular responsibilities of ministry to a local congregation. If he can't get paid for writing an article, or revising a series of sermons for publication, then he shouldn't get paid for speaking at a conference (or even as a visiting preacher?). Is it possible to abuse that privilege and neglect the local flock in pursuit of more lucrative tasks? Sure. But very few men are in that situation, and some who are may choose to donate large portions of their royalties without making a public show if it. Each minister should be accountable to his local Session and ultimately to the Lord for how he spends his time. In many cases, Sessions are glad to see their ministers gifts shared with the wider kingdom, and happy to see his family modestly better provided for as a result.

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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

The context is church planting/ missionary work not a local pastor. Offering the gospel free of charge is the right example to follow. 



Kinghezy said:


> I do not see him differentiating the two. It seems like his criteria is those who "proclaim the gospel". That seems to fit someone with a settled congregation and someone planting.


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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

If you sow spiritual things you should reap material things?

If Paul (greater) offered the gospel for free should not a local pastor (lesser) do the same and even more so?



iainduguid said:


> According to Paul, the answer is yes: Galatians 6:6:
> The one who is taught the message must share all his good things with the teacher. (Gal. 6:6 CSB)
> 
> (Of course, Paul is also eager to offer discipling free of charge under certain circumstances, as he says in 1 Cor. 9:18, but he sees that as the exception not the norm.)
> ...


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## iainduguid (Jan 15, 2019)

BG said:


> If you sow spiritual things you should reap material things?
> 
> If Paul (greater) offered the gospel for free should not a local pastor (lesser) do the same and even more so?


That's almost exactly what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:11: "If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much that we reap material things from you?" Paul's whole premise in this chapter was that his offering the gospel without asking for support in Corinth was irregular and anomalous. He has the right to choose to do so, but he also had the right to receive support from those to whom he is ministering, as the other apostles did (and as he did on other occasions).


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## TheInquirer (Jan 15, 2019)

The only thing around this issue that has ever bothered me has been the use of honorariums in some circumstances. For instance, a pastor goes on vacation, contacts a local pastor he knows in the area so he can preach, recycles a sermon that his congregation already paid him to produce, gets paid an honorarium which he uses to pay for vacation to that area. Then pastors start getting reciprocal arrangements with each other to perpetuate the whole thing. Something about it seems a bit off but I haven't been able to quite put my finger on it. Maybe I am wrong to be bothered but it seems to be done more out of a way to generate side income (we'd call that a "side hustle" in the entrepreneur world) rather than necessarily dong what is best for the flock - but then again, maybe I am wrongly judging motives.


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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

If what your saying is true then this follows:

1. Paul is sinning

2. We should not follow his example

3. We should hinder the gospel

4. We should be a burden to the church





iainduguid said:


> That's almost exactly what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:11: "If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much that we reap material things from you?" Paul's whole premise in this chapter was that his offering the gospel without asking for support in Corinth was irregular and anomalous. He has the right to choose to do so, but he also had the right to receive support from those to whom he is ministering, as the other apostles did (and as he did on other occasions).


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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

Great point. 
Should we pay widows?
Should slaves pay their masters?




TheInquirer said:


> The only thing around this issue that has ever bothered me has been the use of honorariums in some circumstances. For instance, a pastor goes on vacation, contacts a local pastor he knows in the area so he can preach, recycles a sermon that his congregation already paid him to produce, gets paid an honorarium which he uses to pay for vacation to that area. Then pastors start getting reciprocal arrangements with each other to perpetuate the whole thing. Something about it seems a bit off but I haven't been able to quite put my finger on it. Maybe I am wrong to be bothered but it seems to be done more out of a way to generate side income (we'd call that a "side hustle" in the entrepreneur world) rather than necessarily dong what is best for the flock - but then again, maybe I am wrongly judging motives.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 15, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> The only thing around this issue that has ever bothered me has been the use of honorariums in some circumstances. For instance, a pastor goes on vacation, contacts a local pastor he knows in the area so he can preach, recycles a sermon that his congregation already paid him to produce, gets paid an honorarium which he uses to pay for vacation to that area. Then pastors start getting reciprocal arrangements with each other to perpetuate the whole thing. Something about it seems a bit off but I haven't been able to quite put my finger on it. Maybe I am wrong to be bothered but it seems to be done more out of a way to generate side income (we'd call that a "side hustle" in the entrepreneur world) rather than necessarily dong what is best for the flock - but then again, maybe I am wrongly judging motives.


Is this a hypothetical?


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## iainduguid (Jan 15, 2019)

BG said:


> If what your saying is true then this follows:
> 
> 1. Paul is sinning
> 
> ...


Perhaps the confusion arose because I said 1 Cor 16:11, when I should have said 1 Corinthians 9:11:
Paul's argument in this chapter is as follows: 
1. Apostles and other traveling evangelists have a right to be supported in their labors, with food, drink and support for their families. (1 Cor 9:4-5)
2. Barnabas and he are unusual in not exercising the right to refrain from working for a living while serving God (v.6)
3. This is common sense (v.7)
4. It has divine warrant in the OT (v.8-10)
Conclusion (v.11): "If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much that we reap material things from you?" 
5. Others have a rightful claim to this support, and so do Paul and Barnabas, even though they have chosen not to exercise it (v.12-13)
Principle: "Those who proclaim the gospel should get their living from the gospel" (v.14)

So in answer to your questions:
1. Paul is not sinning.
2. he doesn't tell us to follow his example; he explicitly says that his example is abnormal.
3. We should not hinder the gospel, but God's normal method of providing for pastors is through those who benefit from their ministry. (Of course there are exceptions. I'm a bi-vocational pastor myself)
4. Pastors are not a burden to the church when the church supports them; it should be the church's delight to be able to provide well materially for those who bless them spiritually. WLC Q.108 includes the maintenance of the ministry as one of the duties required by the second commandment. 

Is that perhaps clearer?

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## TheInquirer (Jan 15, 2019)

> Is this a hypothetical?



No (and to be clear, it isn't something our pastors do).


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## KMK (Jan 15, 2019)

Bill G, Dr. Duguid's interpretation of 1 Cor 9 is not controversial. I suggest you read a few commentaries on the passage. I have never heard of a commentator that has come to the conclusion that Paul is sinning.

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## BG (Jan 15, 2019)

If Christ commanded that traveling Apostles and evangelist are to be paid and he refused then?

Most commentators get paid from congregations, so why would they agree? 







KMK said:


> Bill G, Dr. Duguid's interpretation of 1 Cor 9 is not controversial. I suggest you read a few commentaries on the passage. I have never heard of a commentator that has come to the conclusion that Paul is sinning.


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## Jack K (Jan 15, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> a pastor goes on vacation, contacts a local pastor he knows in the area so he can preach, recycles a sermon that his congregation already paid him to produce, gets paid an honorarium which he uses to pay for vacation to that area. Then pastors start getting reciprocal arrangements with each other to perpetuate the whole thing.



Perhaps sometimes. But I suspect a far more common scenario is this:

An overworked pastor badly needs a vacation. He picks a destination, but word gets out that he's coming, or out of courtesy he lets a church there know. He gets asked to preach, and since he knows the pastor of that church also badly needs a break, he agrees to spend part of his vacation reviewing an old sermon and preaching. He receives a modest honorarium, which causes someone to suspect the whole thing is a side hustle and to complain that the churches are not getting enough effort for what they pay their pastors. The overworked pastor just gets more discouraged.

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## TheInquirer (Jan 16, 2019)

Jack, I was speaking to a specific context and group and was told that the way I described it was how it worked in that particular context. I will withhold any further details publicly.


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## KMK (Jan 16, 2019)

BG said:


> If Christ commanded that traveling Apostles and evangelist are to be paid and he refused then?
> 
> Most commentators get paid from congregations, so why would they agree?



I don't understand these questions.

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## iainduguid (Jan 16, 2019)

BG said:


> If Christ commanded that traveling Apostles and evangelist are to be paid and he refused then?
> 
> Most commentators get paid from congregations, so why would they agree?


Bill, if you wish to continue the debate it might be helpful if you presented an alternative exegesis of the relevant passages. Are you really arguing that local pastors should never be paid by their churches but should always support themselves through another profession? That would be a position contrary to the Westminster Standards and the historic practice of all reformed churches of which I am aware, including your own RPCNA. But perhaps I have misunderstood you. Could you clarify?

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## Herald (Jan 16, 2019)

Bill The Baptist said:


> There is no question that ministers deserve to be paid a fair and decent wage. I think this is clearly established in Scripture. I do sometimes question if there is a line somewhere that some may have crossed. Most of the very prominent pastors with large publishing ministries (MacArthur, Sproul, etc.) are or were millionaires.



Ligonier Ministries often provides works for free or at a reduced cost. They also make works available online at no cost. Grace to You is similar. One thing that both ministries do well is to provide an efficient distribution chain for works that benefit Christians. Both ministries have boards that provide spiritual and financial oversight. This is a topic where Christian liberty comes into play. If a person has a scruple against purchasing published material from a pastor or ministry, they can refrain from purchasing.


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## earl40 (Jan 16, 2019)

Herald said:


> Ligonier Ministries often provides works for free or at a reduced cost. They also make works available online at no cost. Grace to You is similar. One thing that both ministries do well is to provide an efficient distribution chain for works that benefit Christians. Both ministries have boards that provide spiritual and financial oversight. This is a topic where Christian liberty comes into play. If a person has a scruple against purchasing published material from a pastor or ministry, they can refrain from purchasing.



Now just imagine Jesus or The Apostles charging anything for their work. I personally can not imagine Jesus having a conference with toll takers at the gates or charging anything for The Gospel outside the context of the official church.

I would like to say I AM NOT SAYING a Pastor is not to be paid for Ministering to the sheep. What I am saying a Pastor should be supported by the sheep in the context of a local church...or at least a Presbytery. A case in point would be is how I love how the OPC does missions (supported by the OPC) vs. the PCA which most times has the missionary ask for donations.

Now I understand what I am saying is shocking to many hear but just imaging if Jesus, The Apostles or any Ministry before the turn of the last century doing what we do today as seen below. I understand times are different, but should they be that different?







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We must have each person's name, address, phone, and email. Once a group has been registered the group will receive a single group confirmation number via email, or by phone when registering. Please ensure that all information is given on each individual of the group.
There are no refunds for group registrations, but group member registrations can be transferred if a member of the group is not able to attend. Just take confirmation letter to the registration desk at the conference and they will print you a new name badge.

The group rate is $139 per person and is good until December 31st 2018 (8 p.m. ET). Meal plans for groups are $69 per person. You will also receive 1 complimentary registration per 15 registered attendees.


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## earl40 (Jan 16, 2019)

VictorBravo said:


> The origin of this thread came from Chris stating he had permission to quote from an article by David VanDrunen.
> 
> So the concern that prompted all this was whether a pastor can claim control over his work. If it is OK for RC Sproul to make that claim, how is it different for DVD?
> 
> And further, what would one think of a publisher who routinely borrowed from another's work without permission?



Just to be clear my intent was not to disparage Chris from asking permission which I think is proper. I had nothing in my mind that David VanDruden would be holding on to that article for only paid customers to read.


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## KMK (Jan 16, 2019)

Herald said:


> Ligonier Ministries often provides works for free or at a reduced cost. They also make works available online at no cost. Grace to You is similar. One thing that both ministries do well is to provide an efficient distribution chain for works that benefit Christians. Both ministries have boards that provide spiritual and financial oversight. This is a topic where Christian liberty comes into play. If a person has a scruple against purchasing published material from a pastor or ministry, they can refrain from purchasing.



Agreed, but someone somewhere is paying for the man-hours and materials needed to make such affordable access possible. Is it the Lord's intention that "other men be eased, and ye be burdened?" No, "But by an equality..." (2 Cor 8:13,14)

The bottom line is that all of us should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Doesn't each of us want a fair compensation for our work that we may be good stewards of what God has given us? Then we should want that for our pastors and teachers (and the publishers) as well.

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## Bill The Baptist (Jan 16, 2019)

Herald said:


> Ligonier Ministries often provides works for free or at a reduced cost. They also make works available online at no cost. Grace to You is similar. One thing that both ministries do well is to provide an efficient distribution chain for works that benefit Christians. Both ministries have boards that provide spiritual and financial oversight. This is a topic where Christian liberty comes into play. If a person has a scruple against purchasing published material from a pastor or ministry, they can refrain from purchasing.



I’m certainly not arguing that these resources are not beneficial, I’m just wondering if a pastor is truly living up to their calling if their endeavors have led them to being millionaires. I’m honestly not making any judgment, I’m just wondering.


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## Herald (Jan 16, 2019)

KMK said:


> Agreed, but someone somewhere is paying for the man-hours and materials needed to make such affordable access possible. Is it the Lord's intention that "other men be eased, and ye be burdened?" No, "But by an equality..." (2 Cor 8:13,14)
> 
> The bottom line is that all of us should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Doesn't each of us want a fair compensation for our work that we may be good stewards of what God has given us? Then we should want that for our pastors and teachers (and the publishers) as well.


Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I believe ministries like Ligonier and Grace to You have every right to charge for their material. After all, it costs money to make these resources available. My point is that in addition to items they sell, they also discount items or offer them for free. It's not all about the money.


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## Herald (Jan 16, 2019)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I’m certainly not arguing that these resources are not beneficial, I’m just wondering if a pastor is truly living up to their calling if their endeavors have led them to being millionaires. I’m honestly not making any judgment, I’m just wondering.


It's a stretch to go from having a work published to being a millionaire. Once we start judging motives and bank statements the problem becomes ours, not the ones we are questioning. I know you say you are not judging, just wondering, but I think wondering can be a subtle way of tipping our hand. Do any of us have a valid reason to even wonder about the motives of renowned authors such as the late R.C. Sproul, or John MacArthur and John Piper? For that matter, what of the pastor who labors in relative obscurity who has been blessed with the opportunity to be published?

Matthew 7:20 state, "So then, you will know them by their fruits." This is the tale of the tape. If the man of God is in ministry for the purpose of turning a dollar, what type of fruit will he produce? If his motive is to proclaim the Gospel and to see the saints mature in their faith, won't that yield better fruit?


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## KMK (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I believe ministries like Ligonier and Grace to You have every right to charge for their material. After all, it costs money to make these resources available. My point is that in addition to items they sell, they also discount items or offer them for free. It's not all about the money.



I am in agreement with you. It is not all about the money.

However, when Ligonier discounts their materials, the loss is covered by someone. Someone is being 'burdened' so that the consumer can be 'eased'. That may be merciful, but it is not just.


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## Herald (Jan 17, 2019)

KMK said:


> I am in agreement with you. It is not all about the money.
> 
> However, when Ligonier discounts their materials, the loss is covered by someone. Someone is being 'burdened' so that the consumer can be 'eased'. That may be merciful, but it is not just.


Who is being burdened? Ligonier is a non-profit ministry. Whatever employees they have are still being paid. Whatever financial arrangement was made with the authors probably doesn't change.


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## Kinghezy (Jan 17, 2019)

May I suggest this thread has run its course. We are getting past the original discussion and I do not see us interacting with scripture anymore.


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## Herald (Jan 17, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> May I suggest this thread has run its course. We are getting past the original discussion and I do not see us interacting with scripture anymore.


Chris, the thread may have strayed a bit, but I don't think we should close it prematurely. You started the thread about whether it is permissible for a pastor to be paid for things outside of his normal pastoral duties (i.e. a "spiritual journal"). Some pastors are paid or receive honorariums for writing articles, officiating weddings, and marriage counseling. As long as we're not roasting each other over hot coals, I think a decision like this causes us to check our understanding and motives. It's possible for a pastor to become so involved with earning money that his ministry suffers. But there are plenty of pastors who are tent-makers; working full or part-time jobs because their congregation can't support them. When we discuss organizations like Grace to You, Ligonier, or Banner of Truth, we're focusing on organizations that are gospel-oriented, but fall outside the scope of a local church. The organizations provide valuable resources to the church and individuals. Much of the content produced by these organizations is authored by pastors. That's the connection. Some pastors choose to donate what they've written and some are paid. Is that for us to judge? If we do judge, what is our motive for doing so? Could there be some latent jealousy at play? I think the questions we ask and the answers/conclusions we come up with reveal more about ourselves than the one we're asking questions about.

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## earl40 (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> You started the thread about whether it is permissible for a pastor to be paid for things outside of his normal pastoral duties.



This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.


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## Herald (Jan 17, 2019)

earl40 said:


> This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.


I wrote outside his "normal" pastoral duties.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 17, 2019)

earl40 said:


> This line sums up my thoughts. How can a Pastor claim an article that is teaching something about spiritual matters be considered "outside" his duties. The dichotomy in thinking such goes beyond my thinking.



That gets somewhere. It's a question of duty, and scope of duty.

Consider an example: a pastor is engaged by a local church to preach, teach, and do all the local things a pastor ought to do.

Someone asks him, in his spare time, to compile his Romans series into a book. It takes time. After it is published, people write him with their own personal problems, he graciously writes back. Some now call upon him to compile other sermons.

Meanwhile, he is continually fulfilling his original duties with his local church. I sounds like you would be OK with him receiving compensation for his additional efforts that occur outside of his original duties.

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## KMK (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> Who is being burdened? Ligonier is a non-profit ministry. Whatever employees they have are still being paid. Whatever financial arrangement was made with the authors probably doesn't change.



Assuming it is true that "the labourer is worthy of his hire," research, writing, editing, publishing, and distribution come with a cost. When spiritual material is given at a discount, someone somewhere is being burdened--someone is not receiving what they are worthy of receiving. 

I gladly and willingly spent 10 years as a 'tent-making' pastor. I did not receive what I was worthy of receiving. I was burdened while others were eased. I was happy to do it, but it was not ideal according to 1 Cor. 9:14.

Charity is a virtue, but so is justice. A Christian is not in sin when he requires a just wage for services rendered.


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## Herald (Jan 17, 2019)

KMK said:


> Assuming it is true that "the labourer is worthy of his hire," research, writing, editing, publishing, and distribution come with a cost. When spiritual material is given at a discount, someone somewhere is being burdened--someone is not receiving what they are worthy of receiving.
> 
> I gladly and willingly spent 10 years as a 'tent-making' pastor. I did not receive what I was worthy of receiving. I was burdened while others were eased. I was happy to do it, but it was not ideal according to 1 Cor. 9:14.
> 
> Charity is a virtue, but so is justice. A Christian is not in sin when he requires a just wage for services rendered.


Ken,

I don't mean to appear obtuse, but who is being burdened? If wages due are being paid by a non-profit, who is on the short end of the stick? Answer: no one. Non-profits are supposed to direct all revenue to operations. This includes payroll, utilities, license fees etc. If a non-profit provides something at a discount, or even free, so long as their expenses are covered, no one suffers. I guess I'm just not following your logic.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## KMK (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> Ken,
> 
> I don't mean to appear obtuse, but who is being burdened? If wages due are being paid by a non-profit, who is on the short end of the stick? Answer: no one. Non-profits are supposed to direct all revenue to operations. This includes payroll, utilities, license fees etc. If a non-profit provides something at a discount, or even free, so long as their expenses are covered, no one suffers. I guess I'm just not following your logic.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk



It is not important. I am in agreement with you.


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## TheInquirer (Jan 17, 2019)

Costs of services need to be covered. Conferences can be expensive to put on. Additionally, if they are using the profits from the conferences to help extend their ministry elsewhere and/or absorb the cost of the free material they put out, I personally have no problem whatsoever with those modest charges. btw, Ligonier Connect is ridiculously cheap for what they are offering.



> Do any of us have a valid reason to even wonder about the motives of renowned authors such as the late R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, or John Piper?



If he still lives in the same house he did 15 years ago when I walked by it, Piper lives in one of the poorest sections of Minneapolis in a corner house right above the freeway. It is my understanding that he doesn't personally receive any book royalties but they go into the non-profit. He also frequently holds garage sales to sell extra things (a friend of mine went to his church for many years and knew him).

Now, compare that approach to wealth with John MacArthur, who in 2015, according to Charity Navigator, was paid nearly $250,000 from Grace to You alone:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877

From someone I know who worked at his house, he lives in a VERY nice place in a very nice neighborhood (unless he has moved since then).

Are the donors who give to Grace to You really interested in all that extra money going into MacArthur's pocket? Is that really why they are giving?

I understand these kinds of questions are for the board of directors but MacArthur happens to be the CEO and chairman of the board. I understand that for CEO pay this is pretty meager, but add in his normal pastor salary, royalties, and whatever else, is that kind of salary from GTY really necessary?

Of course, MacArthur isn't a normal pastor and I would probably bet most pastors are underpaid and under appreciated.

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## earl40 (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> I wrote outside his "normal" pastoral duties.



I would consider writing articles (teaching), and marriage counseling as normal pastoral duties. Did Luther, Calvin, Augustine charge for the writing they did? I understand time are different, but I strongly suspect they would not charge or expect extra compensation for their duties they may have done outside of their local congregation.

Correct me if I am wrong if this phenomena (being paid for writing books or a pamphlet) has some history beyond the past 70 or so years.


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## Herald (Jan 17, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I would consider writing articles (teaching), and marriage counseling as normal pastoral duties. Did Luther, Calvin, Augustine charge for the writing they did? I understand time are different, but I strongly suspect they would not charge or expect extra compensation for their duties they may have done outside of their local congregation.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong if this phenomena (being paid for writing books or a pamphlet) has some history beyond the past 70 or so years.


Earl, I see this issue completely different from you and some others in this thread. If my pastor decides to write a commentary on the book of Habakkuk, and the writing of that book does not in any way take away from his pastoral duties, what grounds do I have to object? If he contracts with a publisher and is paid royalties on book sales, so what? What is the problem? I do not think that going back to 16th Century practices among Reformation-period preachers and theologians has any relevance. We are not discussing a theological controversy. If you can show me where a pastor is allowing greed and avarice to corrupt his calling, then we have something to talk about.

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## earl40 (Jan 17, 2019)

Herald said:


> Earl, I see this issue completely different from you and some others in this thread. If my pastor decides to write a commentary on the book of Habakkuk, and the writing of that book does not in any way take away from his pastoral duties, what grounds do I have to object? If he contracts with a publisher and is paid royalties on book sales, so what? What is the problem? I do not think that going back to 16th Century practices among Reformation-period preachers and theologians has any relevance. We are not discussing a theological controversy. If you can show me where a pastor is allowing greed and avarice to corrupt his calling, then we have something to talk about.



I am simply stating in my opinion Ministry is not a business. I understand I am in the minority, and the lack of history of such I believe is relevant.


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## py3ak (Jan 18, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong if this phenomena (being paid for writing books or a pamphlet) has some history beyond the past 70 or so years.



Correction! There were different mechanisms by which people got paid for their labor in producing books, but some form of compensation for an author is not at all unusual. For example, C.H. Spurgeon not only was paid £50 for his book _The Saint and His Saviour, _but decided not to have more to do with that publisher when he realized that what they paid him was in no proportion to what they made from selling the book. Spurgeon was publishing books by 1855, so well before your time limit. Indeed, it was the revenue from the sale of his printed sermons that enabled him to secure the freehold of a house. (See _Autobiography of C.H. Spurgeon, _2:179 & 306-307.)

In general, instincts, feelings, or preferences are poor substitutes for investigations of fact.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 18, 2019)

I've been thinking about offering some trenchant and insightful historical and theological comments on this subject, but will do so only if compensated. 

The mods know how to get in touch with my agent. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Funny 5


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## earl40 (Jan 18, 2019)

py3ak said:


> Correction! There were different mechanisms by which people got paid for their labor in producing books, but some form of compensation for an author is not at all unusual. For example, C.H. Spurgeon not only was paid £50 for his book _The Saint and His Saviour, _but decided not to have more to do with that publisher when he realized that what they paid him was in no proportion to what they made from selling the book. Spurgeon was publishing books by 1855, so well before your time limit. Indeed, it was the revenue from the sale of his printed sermons that enabled him to secure the freehold of a house. (See _Autobiography of C.H. Spurgeon, _2:179 & 306-307.)
> 
> In general, instincts, feelings, or preferences are poor substitutes for investigations of fact.



I thank you for the information.  So Spurgeon was the first you know of?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 18, 2019)

After the first edition published in London in 1675, it was not a publisher but Mrs. Durham who sought the right to import the work into Scotland, as once a printer published a work they assumed the right to perpetually publish it (Milton proves the growing demise of this practice for _Paradise Lost_). Mrs. Durham was granted the right for import and any other printing of it prohibited in Scotland. Subsequently two printers published several editions. Patronage was still the main avenue for book publishing as the seventeenth century opened and few formal contracts survive that show what the practice was. But generally an author would have been paid some not particularly significant fee and or some copies. *This article* on payment of authors in the Seventeenth Century is my source generally for the above; see the introduction to Durham on the ten commandments regarding his wife's petittion.


py3ak said:


> Correction! There were different mechanisms by which people got paid for their labor in producing books, but some form of compensation for an author is not at all unusual. For example, C.H. Spurgeon not only was paid £50 for his book _The Saint and His Saviour, _but decided not to have more to do with that publisher when he realized that what they paid him was in no proportion to what they made from selling the book. Spurgeon was publishing books by 1855, so well before your time limit. Indeed, it was the revenue from the sale of his printed sermons that enabled him to secure the freehold of a house. (See _Autobiography of C.H. Spurgeon, _2:179 & 306-307.)
> 
> In general, instincts, feelings, or preferences are poor substitutes for investigations of fact.

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## Herald (Jan 18, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I've been thinking about offering some trenchant and insightful historical and theological comments on this subject, but will do so only if compensated.
> 
> The mods know how to get in touch with my agent.
> 
> ...


Alan, if you need an accomplished salesperson to help you, I'm your man! LOL


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## Goodcheer68 (Jan 18, 2019)

I think that you are misunderstanding what is considered ministry. A pastor caring for his flock is ministry. A pastor writing a commentary for public consumption is not.


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## py3ak (Jan 18, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I thank you for the information.  So Spurgeon was the first you know of?



No, that's still _presupposing_ (without any attempt at demonstration) that ministers being paid for their literary labor is some kind of innovation. If you have any basis for that other than your feelings, I'd be interested to hear it; but if you maintain that position, it's your job to do the research rather than assuming that you're right until you're proven wrong.

It's easy to correct that assumption in the case of Spurgeon, because precise information is fairly readily available. Also, in his case the mechanism of payment was fairly straightforward: publishers paid him either to secure the copyright or in light of sales. But many authors would publish a prospectus in a catalog for a book they planned to write, and then people would subscribe to fund the production of the book. As Chris mentioned, many other books were produced by individual patronage, whether secured before the book was written or sought by the dedication. 

Consider J.H. Merle d'Aubigne's remarks in the introduction to _The History of the Reformation in the Time of Calvin_:



> There is a circumstance connected with the present publication which has also given satisfaction to the author; it is made with his consent and concurrence, and in consequence of an arrangement with the editor. A foreign author can not find in the United States the same advantages that he meets with in England, in France, and in other parts of the Continent, where all literary property is protected by law. It is, nevertheless, only justice to recognize (even where the law does not), that literary works are the property of their authors, acquired by an intellectual labor more toilsome than that of the husbandman. “By the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat bread,” is applicable to a writer as well as to the sons of toil. It is a satisfaction for an author to know that his writings will be transmitted to a distant nation by virtue of an honorable commercial arrangement This the author has found in his dealings with Messrs. Carter & Brothers; and he puts it to the honor of the American nation, that these editions published by the Messrs. Carter, from which alone he derives some advantage, will be purchased by the citizens of the United States, and that they will not countenance the pirated editions that other booksellers may issue, without his consent.



The author would naturally prefer that people purchase the edition whose purchase rewards him, rather than a pirated version that does nothing to compensate his work.

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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 19, 2019)

Just by way of notation, as far as my reading goes, and if memory serves, the first full time English Divine who was able to live off writing as a means of sustaining himself, was Henry Hammond, a Westminster Divine. I recall reading that when putting together his bio.

As I recall, he wrote 58 works, and many of them quite long.

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## earl40 (Jan 19, 2019)

py3ak said:


> No, that's still _presupposing_ (without any attempt at demonstration) that ministers being paid for their literary labor is some kind of innovation. If you have any basis for that other than your feelings, I'd be interested to hear it; but if you maintain that position, it's your job to do the research rather than assuming that you're right until you're proven wrong.
> 
> It's easy to correct that assumption in the case of Spurgeon, because precise information is fairly readily available. Also, in his case the mechanism of payment was fairly straightforward: publishers paid him either to secure the copyright or in light of sales. But many authors would publish a prospectus in a catalog for a book they planned to write, and then people would subscribe to fund the production of the book. As Chris mentioned, many other books were produced by individual patronage, whether secured before the book was written or sought by the dedication.
> 
> ...



It would be hard to prove a practice that was not around before it occurred, right? This is a problem with trying to prove uninspired hymns were sung in the early church. I am speaking of a principle that makes my feelings so.


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## py3ak (Jan 19, 2019)

earl40 said:


> It would be hard to prove a practice that was not around before it occurred, right? This is a problem with trying to prove uninspired hymns were sung in the early church. I am speaking of a principle that makes my feelings so.



Earl, being cute is not an argument. You may have heard the phrase, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." As the one apparently maintaining that proper pastors don't charge for written teaching, the burden of proof is on you to show that this is the case. You speculated (with no basis in fact) that this was an innovation in the past 70 years. It was shown that you were wrong in that, not by a rounding error of 10 or 15 years, but by more than double your guess. And now you admit that your only basis for a historical claim is your feelings. My feeling is that I will not accept a historical claim proffered with a complete lack of evidence.

No principle makes your feelings so. That is not how Biblical inquiry goes, where we ask about what God said in the text, not what we think he should have said. That is not how theological inquiry goes, where we ask about what the truth is, not what would feel right to us. That is not how historical inquiry goes, where we ask what did happen, not what our preconceived notions suggest should or must have happened. Your method is bootless, and vaguely asserting that some principle undergirds your instincts does nothing to make your instincts correct. As we have seen, your instincts have already misled you on this topic.

If you want to argue that no pastor _should_ charge for written or recorded material, open Scripture, open the Confessions, open the books of church order, and spell out the arguments. If you want to argue that pastors have not done so, you need to research the history. Your feelings may be interesting as psychology or autobiography, but they're quite unrelated to historical fact.

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## earl40 (Jan 19, 2019)

py3ak said:


> Earl, being cute is not an argument. You may have heard the phrase, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." As the one apparently maintaining that proper pastors don't charge for written teaching, the burden of proof is on you to show that this is the case. You speculated (with no basis in fact) that this was an innovation in the past 70 years. It was shown that you were wrong in that, not by a rounding error of 10 or 15 years, but by more than double your guess. And now you admit that your only basis for a historical claim is your feelings. My feeling is that I will not accept a historical claim proffered with a complete lack of evidence.
> 
> No principle makes your feelings so. That is not how Biblical inquiry goes, where we ask about what God said in the text, not what we think he should have said. That is not how theological inquiry goes, where we ask about what the truth is, not what would feel right to us. That is not how historical inquiry goes, where we ask what did happen, not what our preconceived notions suggest should or must have happened. Your method is bootless, and vaguely asserting that some principle undergirds your instincts does nothing to make your instincts correct. As we have seen, your instincts have already misled you on this topic.
> 
> If you want to argue that no pastor _should_ charge for written or recorded material, open Scripture, open the Confessions, open the books of church order, and spell out the arguments. If you want to argue that pastors [you]have not done so[/you], you need to research the history. Your feelings may be interesting as psychology or autobiography, but they're quite unrelated to historical fact.



I hear you. Does a lack of evidence of Jesus or The Prophets charging for what they said or wrote count?  So far as me using a date, which I chose off the top of my head, was simply an inquiry as to when the practice of charging for Pastors teaching began.

As I was thinking about this today I wonder if Jesus turning over the tables was something that might bare some line of thinking on my part. Was the practice of exchanging different currency for exorbitant rates all Our Lord was upset about? Was another reason _all_ those that sold doves also sold them at exorbitant rates?

I totally understand why I am getting so much push back on this issue, and really wonder why people think to charge for a Christian Conference, or to help the church with good teaching is OK.

I think I may send a few dollars to Pastor Strange to look into the history of this practice.


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## py3ak (Jan 19, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I hear you. Does a lack of evidence of Jesus or The Prophets charging for what they said or wrote count?  So far as me using a date, which I chose off the top of my head, was simply an inquiry as to when the practice of charging for Pastors teaching began.
> 
> As I was thinking about this today I wonder if Jesus turning over the tables was something that might bare some line of thinking on my part. Was the practice of exchanging different currency for exorbitant rates all Our Lord was upset about? Was another reason _all_ those that sold doves also sold them at exorbitant rates?
> 
> ...



The reason you are getting so much push back from me has a great deal to do with your methods. Choosing a date off the top of your head is simply _not_ an acceptable way to make historical claims. It doesn't bother me that you can't imagine our Lord or his apostles charging for their teaching; but the ninth commandment calls upon you, as a Christian, to do better than to make assertions about matters of historical fact on no basis other than your feelings or what you can imagine.

If you're willing to do the work (or pay to have the work done!) of making an argument, biblical, theological, or historical, I invite you to do so and suggest that you put it on a new thread for the sake of focus. But there needs to be considerably more to it than guesswork and suppositions. If you want to make a Biblical argument, you could begin by rereading the NT with the question in mind: from whence did the Lord and the apostles get the money for their expenses? That would probably be more productive than wondering if a text is relevant.

On the historical side, to help you get started, I'll point out that during the disruptions of WWII, Westminster Chapel did not feel able to pay its ministers a salary in quite the usual way; so they switched to paying a fixed per-sermon fee. The more Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones or Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, preached the more they made during that time. This led Morgan to encourage the Chapel to have Lloyd-Jones preach as often as possible, since Morgan was in a better position to survive without the help of the sermon fee.

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## Kinghezy (Jan 19, 2019)

I would be interested in a biblical or theological argument, assuming there was one (even for devil's advocate purposes). Historical would tell that something occurred but not the validity. 

Yes, there are temptations with money. Yes, there are possibly people who have abused the situation. But that does not indicate that that act itself is wrong. The bible is able to show both the danger of wine (Gen 9:22) and the joy of wine (Gen 27:28) without saying "everyone must avoid it". Perhaps there is a similar concept here.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 19, 2019)

*Moderator Note:*

Thread is closed for the time being.

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