# Getting the toddler to sleep through the night



## asc

Hello all,

I would really appreciate some advice from moms out there.

My 15 month old, Elijah, still isn't sleeping through the night, and it's really starting to wear on me and my wife. Most nights he still wakes up 2-3 times. On one or two of those times, it's difficult to get him to go back to sleep without giving him a bottle of milk (we use formula in the middle of the night for convenience). Sometimes he just keeps crying without milk that it's hard to deny him, and in the past when we've tried to not give him milk he cries so hard that he vomits.

Thanks for your help.


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## JBaldwin

How much of a nap does he take during the day? Both of my children are high energy children, and I found they could not sleep more than two hours in the afternoon (and be up by 4) in order to get them to sleep all night. 

Here are some other things to consider:

If a child is teething, his mouth may be hurting and the milk makes him feel better. 
If a child is not getting enough to eat, he may be waking up hungry. 
Check to see if he is warm enough or too hot

In general, with my children, I took into consideration all the reason why I couldn't sleep and tried it on them. 

Chamomile or lavendar oil can also calm a child and help them sleep.


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## Guido's Brother

We've had tough kids and I have to say that I really sympathize with you. Our newest addition is five months old and she's angelic -- I guess we finally hit the baby jackpot. 

But as to what to do, my only advice is patience (this won't last forever) and if you can, trade off on the night duties with your spouse.

I've heard Christians argue that parents should ignore their children in cases like this because God ignored Jesus' cries on the cross. Not only is that a poor exegesis, it's also cruel. I think there may be a point where you have to wonder if you're being manipulated, but if your kid is going to start vomiting or passing out because of his crying, I can't see how a loving parent would not get up and give some comfort. Especially at 15 months, I think your child just needs some extra TLC and patience from mom and dad.


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## LadyFlynt

JBaldwin said:


> How much of a nap does he take during the day? Both of my children are high energy children, and I found they could not sleep more than two hours in the afternoon (and be up by 4) in order to get them to sleep all night.
> 
> Here are some other things to consider:
> 
> If a child is teething, his mouth may be hurting and the milk makes him feel better.
> If a child is not getting enough to eat, he may be waking up hungry.
> Check to see if he is warm enough or too hot
> 
> In general, with my children, I took into consideration all the reason why I couldn't sleep and tried it on them.
> 
> Chamomile or lavendar oil can also calm a child and help them sleep.



 and try a Lavender bath before bed with plenty of water play (they sell lavender baby bath).

And very much ditto to Guido's brother...whatever someone else tells you, don't CIO, a child that age usually has a reason for crying or being awake. You're the adult and will need to figure it out or deal with it for now. They grow up all too quickly, so it's just for a time


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## BJClark

asc;



> My 15 month old, Elijah, still isn't sleeping through the night, and it's really starting to wear on me and my wife. Most nights he still wakes up 2-3 times. On one or two of those times, it's difficult to get him to go back to sleep without giving him a bottle of milk (we use formula in the middle of the night for convenience). Sometimes he just keeps crying without milk that it's hard to deny him, and in the past when we've tried to not give him milk he cries so hard that he vomits.
> 
> Thanks for your help.



Sometimes it's that they are hungry, how much is he eating at night for dinner? How much solid food? 

If you are still bottle feeding him formula at night have you considered mixing a bit of rice cereal in the bottle? Maybe try that before you put him down at night so that his tummy is full..and see if that helps.

I know when my kids were babies I'd put cereal in the last bottle of the night and they would sleep--all night..


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## Augusta

The cereal in the bottle was helpful for us with our oldest, gives them a nice full tummy.


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## asc

Thanks for the questions and suggestions everyone.



JBaldwin said:


> How much of a nap does he take during the day? Both of my children are high energy children, and I found they could not sleep more than two hours in the afternoon (and be up by 4) in order to get them to sleep all night.



He usually naps just once during the day, about 1-2 hours.



> Here are some other things to consider:
> 
> If a child is teething, his mouth may be hurting and the milk makes him feel better.
> If a child is not getting enough to eat, he may be waking up hungry.
> Check to see if he is warm enough or too hot
> 
> In general, with my children, I took into consideration all the reason why I couldn't sleep and tried it on them.



He's been fussier at times, when he's been teething, but even at his best he's still waking up 1-2 x a night.

He's a fussy eater at meals sometimes, so we tried a snack at bedtime recently with his last bottle. It didnt seem to make a difference.

He maybe a little cold with it being winter; he hates blankets and always kicks them off. But again, putting him in more clothes didn't help.



> Chamomile or lavendar oil can also calm a child and help them sleep.



What does one do with the oil? Rub it on them? Thanks.

-----Added 1/24/2009 at 08:06:57 EST-----



Guido's Brother said:


> We've had tough kids and I have to say that I really sympathize with you. Our newest addition is five months old and she's angelic -- I guess we finally hit the baby jackpot.
> 
> But as to what to do, my only advice is patience (this won't last forever) and if you can, trade off on the night duties with your spouse.
> 
> I've heard Christians argue that parents should ignore their children in cases like this because God ignored Jesus' cries on the cross. Not only is that a poor exegesis, it's also cruel. I think there may be a point where you have to wonder if you're being manipulated, but if your kid is going to start vomiting or passing out because of his crying, I can't see how a loving parent would not get up and give some comfort. Especially at 15 months, I think your child just needs some extra TLC and patience from mom and dad.



Not being very experienced, I don't know if it's cruel to push him to sleep through the night. We're checking to make sure there's nothing serious keeping him up and haven't been able to find anything. So I don't know if we've just gotten him into a bad habit or if he really needs the attention and formula in the middle of the night.

Lately at night we haven't been making him cry much because it's much quicker just to give him a bottle.


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## JBaldwin

LadyFlynt's suggestion of bathing them in lavendar baby bath probably works the best. If they baby has lots of time to play and relax, it helps them wind down and rest. 

Another thing you can do is by some lavendar essential oil which can be purchased at most health food stores. I used to put a drop of it on cloth and place it near the head of the bed so my children could smell it while they slept. I would not put it directly on the baby's skin unless it was diluted with some massage oil, and then I would check a spot to make sure he's not allergic to the oil.


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## BJClark

asc;




> He's a fussy eater at meals sometimes, so we tried a snack at bedtime recently with his last bottle. It didn't seem to make a difference.



What type of food are you feeding him? is he still eating baby foods, or are you giving him table food? 




> Not being very experienced, I don't know if it's cruel to push him to sleep through the night. We're checking to make sure there's nothing serious keeping him up and haven't been able to find anything. So I don't know if we've just gotten him into a bad habit or if he really needs the attention and formula in the middle of the night.



No, it's not always cruel to let them cry--unless like your son they are making themselves vomit, if you ignore it.

However, It could be he's just wanting a little more attention, is the baby waking up in the middle of the night as well? 

How much one on one attention is he getting during the day? do he and the baby take naps at different times or at the same time? 




> Lately at night we haven't been making him cry much because it's much quicker just to give him a bottle.



Well, stop pinching him and maybe he'll sleep through the night..

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the wording on that one..'making' him cry, 


It could also be that he's just one of those children who don't require a lot of sleep, maybe try cutting his nap time down during the day and see if that helps..


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## asc

BJClark said:


> What type of food are you feeding him? is he still eating baby foods, or are you giving him table food?



He's eating table food and drinks whole milk, except in the middle of the night, when we use formula because it's simpler.



> is the baby waking up in the middle of the night as well?
> 
> How much one on one attention is he getting during the day? do he and the baby take naps at different times or at the same time?



? I'm not sure what you meant, as it's the "baby" I've been talking about. But you might be getting confused by my avatar picture. It's almost a year old, so this is the baby in the picture, who's now a toddler. Thankfully, his older brother is generally sleeping through the night. They nap about the same time daily.



> Well, stop pinching him and maybe he'll sleep through the night..
> 
> I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the wording on that one..'making' him cry,



doh, poor word choice. But usually when he first stirs in the middle of the night, he doesn't start crying immediately. He's sorta whiney and sometimes calls out for milk. Often if he's given milk quickly, he'll just drink it and go right back to sleep.



> It could also be that he's just one of those children who don't require a lot of sleep, maybe try cutting his nap time down during the day and see if that helps..


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## LadyFlynt

Also, is he going to bed at a regular time or when tired? If going to get after ALREADY tired, fizzled, etc, that can interfere with sleep...they are so tired that they just don't know what to do with themselves. Also, the bath is a good buffer and wind down to bed time rather than going from activity to bed.


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## christiana

If that is the older one he may be having a little trouble with his place in the family due to the younger one. Nothing wrong with allowing him more milk, more time to adjust to life changes. He may be clinging to his babyhood. If milk in the night is all it takes that would be a very easy fix!!


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## he beholds

Guido's Brother said:


> We've had tough kids and I have to say that I really sympathize with you. Our newest addition is five months old and she's angelic -- I guess we finally hit the baby jackpot.
> 
> But as to what to do, my only advice is patience (this won't last forever) and if you can, trade off on the night duties with your spouse.
> 
> I've heard Christians argue that parents should ignore their children in cases like this because God ignored Jesus' cries on the cross. Not only is that a poor exegesis, it's also cruel. I think there may be a point where you have to wonder if you're being manipulated, but if your kid is going to start vomiting or passing out because of his crying, I can't see how a loving parent would not get up and give some comfort. Especially at 15 months, I think your child just needs some extra TLC and patience from mom and dad.



I've only heard of one person ever making that argument, not "Christians," but I agree it is a bad argument! God was not ignoring Christ!



LadyFlynt said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much of a nap does he take during the day? Both of my children are high energy children, and I found they could not sleep more than two hours in the afternoon (and be up by 4) in order to get them to sleep all night.
> 
> Here are some other things to consider:
> 
> If a child is teething, his mouth may be hurting and the milk makes him feel better.
> If a child is not getting enough to eat, he may be waking up hungry.
> Check to see if he is warm enough or too hot
> 
> In general, with my children, I took into consideration all the reason why I couldn't sleep and tried it on them.
> 
> Chamomile or lavendar oil can also calm a child and help them sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and try a Lavender bath before bed with plenty of water play (they sell lavender baby bath).
> 
> And very much ditto to Guido's brother...whatever someone else tells you, don't CIO, a child that age usually has a reason for crying or being awake. You're the adult and will need to figure it out or deal with it for now. They grow up all too quickly, so it's just for a time
Click to expand...


We did let our older son cry it out, and we were still adults who loved our baby. Our younger, she didn't need to CIO, because she just slept. 

I don't have advice, so sorry for posting here, (well, accept, maybe put him to sleep later) but I did want to mention that I have heard that lavender gives boys breasts. You might want to check on that yourself, obviously, to see whether you believe it.


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## SemperWife

You sound like you have been pretty thorough in your investigation of the problem. And others seem to have given some pretty good advice.

One thing not mentioned was the possibility of a physical issue. It may be a shot in the dark, but have you thought of acid reflux/heartburn? If not that, maybe some other physical problem. It may be worth a trip to his doctor to check it out. It might not hurt to try.

I mentioned in a routine exam that my son had a raspy voice. The doctor thought it was no big deal. However, in a later conversation with a colleague, she was told that maybe he should get checked out just to be sure. It turned out he had Acid Reflux....all from a quick mention of his raspy voice. You just never know...

I hope you find a successful solution! Losing sleep is always difficult. And not knowing how to help your little one is really frustrating! May God be gracious to you and your family!


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## Hamalas

No advice, but I'll be praying!


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## Honor

I'm with Sonya... my son had acid reflux (he grew out of it) but it made life horrid. (there were lots of other issues too). if it is the acid reflux the milk might be soothing him. I would try putting two books or something under the bedframe at the head of the bed to elvate his head slightly... not dramatically just a little..and if he sleeps on his tummy try getting him to sleep on his side... the tummy will push the acid up.
good luck and try everything... can't hurt


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## moral necessity

Is he perhaps a light sleeper? Are either of you two light sleepers? We ran a quiet fan in the room of our child, and it drowned out the noise of other things, and even the noise of silence (if that makes any sense), and created an atmosphere that sort of soothed them to sleep. We also kept the door nearly shut, so as to keep most of the light out of the room.

Blessings and prayer!


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## SpokenFor

Organic Night Night Balm by Badger - A Natural Sleep Aid for Children
^^great stuff... apply to the feet!

Sleep begets sleep. Make sure he is actually getting a long enough nap during the day. (Napping toddlers are happy toddlers)

The waking up for milk may have become a habit at this point, rather than a need for food. Also, having milk/formula in the middle of the night can lead to cavities, even if not all the teeth have come in yet. Offer water instead. You can also slowly begin to water down the milk until it no longer tastes so yummy.

Does he co-sleep with you or with his older brother or does he have his own bed? When my youngest was that age, we got a queen sized bed for her and her older sister and they both began sleeping through the night almost immediately, all cute and cuddled up together. They now have their own twin beds, but insist that we keep their beds pushed together.

Hope that's helpful.


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## asc

he beholds said:


> We did let our older son cry it out, and we were still adults who loved our baby. Our younger, she didn't need to CIO, because she just slept.



I'm not familiar with CIO; cry it out? What was it like?


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## Honor

we let both the boys cry it out when they were little... 1 year old for child #1 and 9 months for #2.. we would do our normal bedtime routine and make sure they were good and fed... then we would say goodnight and that was it... they would cry until the would go to sleep... if they threw up then we would silently go in there and clean them up and walk out the room. With #1 I couldn't do it... Hubby had to tackle me outside the door... he then gave me a roll of quarters and told me to go down the block to the local pool hall and play pool until he called when the baby was a sleep... I was there 2 1/2 hours.. the next night I was there only 2 hour and 15 mins. and slowly VERY SLOWLY the time decreased. by the end of a week and a half he was asleep 5 mins after we lay him down and with no cring and no waking in the middle of the night. it was the same story with #2 but this time I had the resolve and didn't have to go to the pool hall... In my humble opinion it was WELL worth it.


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## he beholds

asc said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> We did let our older son cry it out, and we were still adults who loved our baby. Our younger, she didn't need to CIO, because she just slept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not familiar with CIO; cry it out? What was it like?
Click to expand...


Well, CIO (yes, cry it out) is like Jessica said above. 
I don't think it is something you would start out of nowhere with a 15 month old (I think that is your son's age), as it is more what you do with the baby at first. Also, it is what you do when you put them down to bed at the beginning of the night, more so than in the middle. If a baby is crying when you put them down, you have just seen him and know all is well. In the middle of the night, you would probably want to check on him, like you do. However, with our children, when they would consistently wake up at a specific time (say 3 am) every morning, then at some point, we might have let them cry then, so as to break that pattern. 

I have a 14 month old. If she was waking in the middle of the night, every night, this is probably what I would try:

The first night, I'd go in, pet her until she is calm, and leave. Maybe even pick her up, this first time. But I wouldn't really rock her. They say, start how you want to end up. I do not want to have to rock my daughter to sleep when she's four years old. 
So I go in, calm her down (very quickly), and leave. I don't get very far, b/c she's probably going to cry again immediately. 
She cries, I go right back in, pet, leave.
She cries, I go right back in, pet, leave. 
Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Eventually she will get that I am not taking her out of bed, giving her milk, etc. This is what she gets. It may take three or so nights of doing this repeatedly for it to work. 

For your son, this is out of nowhere, maybe, so he might be really confused, so it might take _a lot_ of petting. 
My daughter went through this stage around 7-8 months,_ after sleeping through the night from seven weeks on_, so it was a shock to my system, but this is essentially what we did. 

Now if she awakes, I go in and give her a pacifier, and she is fine. 
As you can see, every baby is different and lots of different things work. I would try to find _Secrets of the Baby Whisperer_ from the library, if you think you'd like to try the petting approach. That's where I got it, and I'm sure she explains it much better! 

Also, if you give the baby a bottle before naps and before bedtime, you might want to try to break that habit. That could be why he needs milk in the middle of the night, as well. If that's what cues him to sleep, he really may NEED that to sleep. With my daughter, she "needs" a pacifier. If she wakes up and cannot find it herself, then she may cry. I am going to have to work on cutting this out eventually as well--it just isn't a nightly problem, so I haven't worried, yet! 

From the start, we did what the BabyWhisperer called EASY: Eat, activity, sleep, you time. So baby eats when he wakes up, then plays or bathes or some activity, then sleeps, (and thus you have "you" time). You follow this pattern for nap time, too. She, and other people who believe in sleep training (controversial!), say to separate bottle and bedtime. This way, baby is not dependent on the bottle for bed. When they are really young, you do give them their final feeding right before bed, but at 15 months, I think you could manage to give him his last milk a while before bed, that's what we do, anyway.

IF our daughter is having an off night and does cry when we put her down, and the petting doesn't work, then we might let her cry it out, but honestly with this one, we haven't had too much of that. With our two and a half y/o, we had tons and tons of nights with him crying himself to sleep. Looking back, I prefer the calming method.


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## Jesus is my friend

Well

Many of the other folks seems to have seems seasoned advice esp. the mothers,Thank God for them! (My wife is the best) anyway she would have the best tips but she,like children is sleeping

We noticed what we though was one huge thing with Joshua our second he was a horrible sleeper for the first 8-9 this was very hard on my wife and then we moved into our first houseand the very first night and then on an amazing sleeper,why?,we believe it had to do with the smell and proximity of the Mother,I am not a brillianthowever there have been studies showing the powerful bond between mother and child esp. if mom is the only one who feeds and even moreso with breastfeeding moms,My boy Joshua could no loger smell my wife in the crib next to our bed and whammo! he slept like a adult.he had his own room and free from mamas wonderful smell

Grace and Peace to you


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## Honor

i think I need to ad two things...
1.) we started when our boys were much younger so I have no idea how well this would work for you or even if it's a good idea.
2.) we had a ton of binkies in the bed with our son. when he would wake up it wasn't hard for him to find one... and if you are a mom with a child who has a binkie you know that it's a pain in the patookis to try and find that one measley little binkie at 3am in the dark.... we took 5 or 6 packages of binkies, cleaned them then dumped them in the crib.


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## puritanpilgrim

The best book I found on the subject of children's sleep is called Babywise. Using the method I have gotten all my children to sleep through the night by 2 months.


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## PresbyDane

God in his mercy gave us a sleeper so I cannot help you sorry


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## he beholds

Honor said:


> i think I need to ad two things...
> 1.) we started when our boys were much younger so I have no idea how well this would work for you or even if it's a good idea.
> 2.) we had a ton of binkies in the bed with our son. when he would wake up it wasn't hard for him to find one... and if you are a mom with a child who has a binkie you know that it's a pain in the patookis to try and find that one measley little binkie at 3am in the dark.... we took 5 or 6 packages of binkies, cleaned them then dumped them in the crib.



Hahaha...flash to the middle of last night, in our house: 
Me: (basically still asleep seeing my husband walking around with a flashlight!) "What the heck are you doing?"
Jeremy (DH):"I can't find a binkie anywhere!"
Me: "She has at least two of them in there with her."
Jeremy:"I know, but I can't find them!" 
He disappears, and I guess found one with the flashlight, because all was well again!



puritanpilgrim said:


> The best book I found on the subject of children's sleep is called Babywise. Using the method I have gotten all my children to sleep through the night by 2 months.



We did use Babywise with number one, but switched to the method I described above for number two, and they BOTH slept through the night before seven weeks. I would recommend every parent reading _Babywise_, but tweaking it. I like how they stress scheduling, esp. for feeding, but I think one can go too far if they don't use their own instincts! 
And don't tell the lactation nurses!


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## puritanpilgrim

> . I would recommend every parent reading Babywise, but tweaking it



I agree with the tweeking. It's is a bit too rigid.


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## LadyFlynt

he beholds said:


> We did let our older son cry it out, and we were still adults who loved our baby. Our younger, she didn't need to CIO, because she just slept.



My advice wasn't an implication that parents who CIO don't love their children. There are sound reasons why one shouldn't CIO for the health of the child.

-----Added 1/26/2009 at 04:53:15 EST-----



puritanpilgrim said:


> The best book I found on the subject of children's sleep is called Babywise. Using the method I have gotten all my children to sleep through the night by 2 months.


The Ezzos are one of the WORST people, next to Gothard to go to for raising children. And yes, I took courses. And yes, I have horror stories of those that propound this stuff to be "God's Way" of "training" a child (see Pavlov's dog...I believe they actually used this as an example during our class). They are also known for propagating unsound "health" information on breastfeeding, sleeping, and babywearing...as well as comments during videos that are borderline racist on these issues.

That is all I will say on the subject: the view of children by the Ezzos, Gothard, and Pearls is somewhere no covenant family should go.

http://www.ezzo.info/



And if you are breastfeeding, a babe isn't meant to sleep through the night given how breastmilk and a babe's digestive system are.


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## queenknitter

First of all, it's just tough. No sleep and all that. It's tough all the way around. So my sympathies. . . . Neither of my boys were great sleepers in the beginning. I talked with my mother-in-law about it, and she remembered that none of her kids were good sleepers. And then she remembered that HER mother-in-law told her that none of her TWELVE kids were good sleepers either. I finally concluded that it was a genetic thing, bred into my children from my inlaws' Ozark background. I mean, think about it -- who's going to get the attention every baby needs in order to survive the harsh life of the prairie? It's the one who cries! :-D I think we've messed up our thinking about what God designed these little ones for -- to be near Mommy, to crave human touch, to eat, eat, eat.

That being said, you're still exhausted. (((you)))

I had the best luck with _The Happiest Baby on the Block_'s techniques. Those worked the best for us. 

And quite honestly, that second year of life -- from about 12 months to 24 months -- is rough on sleep. All those molars are coming in. And it hurts! So you don't want the little one suffering alone away from you. 

Also those milestones are tough too. Often they'll be restless until they master walking or talking.

As I sit here and type this, my little 2.5yo guy is sitting next to me on the counter messing up my sudoku game.  He sleeps great now!! Really great. But just a year ago, I was in your shoes with a really restless, teething toddler. It was tough. My dear husband helped me by taking over the morning routine so I could sleep an extra few hours. There were nights I never thought I'd sleep again.  I was wrong, of course. We both got through it. It's one of the rougher patches of parenting, that's true.


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## Honor

the sleepless nights is the thing that makes me NEVER want any more kids EVER again... I get cold chills just thinking about the sleepless nights.
HUGS


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## Augusta

he beholds said:


> We did use Babywise with number one, but switched to the method I described above for number two, and they BOTH slept through the night before seven weeks. I would recommend every parent reading _Babywise_, but tweaking it. I like how they stress scheduling, esp. for feeding, but I think one can go too far if they don't use their own instincts!
> And don't tell the lactation nurses!



I was gonna say that the EASY schedule you were mentioning sounded a lot like the basic premise of babywise without all the Ezzo junk. That one part about the scheduling did work for my children. You feed them, you play and keep them up as long as you can and then they nap. Once this cycle is down they just start sleeping through the night. It sets their clock or something.


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## queenknitter

he beholds said:


> You feed them, you play and keep them up as long as you can and then they nap. Once this cycle is down they just start sleeping through the night. It sets their clock or something.



It does work for some babies who it'll work for!  It didn't work at all for my boys who were eat-play-eat-sleep-eat-sleep-eat-eat-eat-eat-sleep-eat-eat. You get the idea. 

And even once that "routine" (as Ezzo is insistent we call it) is established, life does intervene. Growth spurts, milestones, teeth -- that's the way it goes.

It is rough. . . . I was thinking this morning as I was puttering around the house that it really is like our own growth in Christ. Once we think we've got a routine all established that is just perfect, Somebody throws a wrench in the works. It keeps us humble, attached, and growing.

C


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## Wanderer

All I can say is that a good routine goes a long way in getting children to sleep regularly through the night.

Young children find lots of comfort in knowing what's next and what is expected of them. I remember my son John who had a certain time of day for meals, play, walk, story time, naps, and being tucked in to sleep, and waking up. It took time to get the routine down,(and time to modify the routine) but once our routines were established, John was the happiest and most secure child you would ever come across. 

One funny thing about routine and force of habit with John. About when John was two years old, even though he could not tell time, when 8pm rolled around he was ready for bed and would come and get myself or his mother to read to him and tuck him in. And if for some reason or another do to company or something else we were not ready to read to him, he would just go to his room, climb into bed, and if we didn't catch him before he fell asleep to read him his story he would be out like a light until morning.

One other tip. I have always found it helpful to talk to my children about what was coming up and what was expected of them. Telling your child even weeks old that it's time for bed and that you will be in the home and are there for them is comforting to them. Also telling them that they will sleep or rest quietly until you say it's time to get up, or telling them what conditions that they are allowed to get up, lets them know what the ground rules are. So in short, you need to talk to your children. Don't let them wonder if mommy is still in the house, and I need to cry to check on her. And never tell them a lie. If you are going out for the night and have a sitter, tell them so. Don't go out with the child asleep and allow them to wake up and find mom is not around. The world is a scary place and children need to have as much of an idea of what to expect.

Oh well, that my two cents on getting a child to sleep through the night. I think it has more to do with developing a trusting relationship with the child.


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## Denton Elliott

We used gripewater and that helped a lot. Also, you must let the child cry and if the child is simply being defiant, spank until the child realizes you are serious about staying in bed...


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## queenknitter

We all have trouble in our lives when we can't sleep. It's not an issue of defiance. I had trouble a few nights ago. It wasn't defiance. Honestly? I think God wanted me up to pray for some people. . . .

It's so easy to think of our children as a nuisance or a hindrance to getting our own needs met. We are so enamored with our modern trappings. God isn't annoyed by our cries. He carries us through. . . .

It's really the very least we can do to minister that same grace to the weakest among us.

C

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 11:13:11 EST-----



Wanderer said:


> I think it has more to do with developing a trusting relationship with the child.



Exactly. They know that we respond when they need us. Fifteen months is so little. There's so much they can barely express at that age. 

C


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## Semper Fidelis

My .

There are no hard and fast rules but we learned with each kid not to indulge them too much and teach them how to fall asleep without having to be held. If a child is still accustomed to having someone near him when he's falling asleep then that can be one of the problems.

Even when you get them used to the idea that they can fall asleep without Mom and Dad, we still go through phases where the child is teething. I'm wondering, based on the age, if that's the issue. We sometimes realize, if they're acting out of schedule, that could be the issue.

One thing you may want to try is setting up a play yard next to the dryer and using white noise to calm down your child and helping him to learn how to fall asleep on his own.

Final advice: wisdom is not didactic teaching. Lots of great ideas and some good principles but kids aren't closed systems that are always predictable. Try to pick a couple of good ideas and then consistently stick with them. If you don't like mine then I don't claim to have the "raising Toddlers God's way" method but it works for us and other's ideas might work for you.

Blessings!


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## queenknitter

Semper Fidelis said:


> If a child is still accustomed to having someone near him when he's falling asleep then that can be one of the problems.



That's a bit of myth. . . . We heard it too when our boys were little. They always fell asleep near me or my husband. And they fall asleep just fine now -- often near a sibling or sometimes alone, but they fall asleep!

Again, history and anthropology show that we 20th-21st-century Americans are oddballs in this idea of solitary sleep. It's just impractical in the larger picture, so this goal, it seems, is not the way God made us.

C


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## Semper Fidelis

queenknitter said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a child is still accustomed to having someone near him when he's falling asleep then that can be one of the problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a bit of myth. . . . We heard it too when our boys were little. They always fell asleep near me or my husband. And they fall asleep just fine now -- often near a sibling or sometimes alone, but they fall asleep!
> 
> Again, history and anthropology show that we 20th-21st-century Americans are oddballs in this idea of solitary sleep. It's just impractical in the larger picture, so this goal, it seems, is not the way God made us.
> 
> C
Click to expand...


Thank you for your opinion on this matter Camille but it is not a "myth" that _my_ children have a bit of difficulty adjusting to falling asleep by themselves if they've grown accustomed to being cradled to sleep. I'm not opining in the abstract about 21st Century Americans but talking about my kids. If that makes me an "oddball" in your mind then I don't much care but we have happy children who love their parents in spite of our crazy childrearing ideas.


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## queenknitter

Semper Fidelis said:


> Thank you for your opinion on this matter Camille but it is not a "myth" that _my_ children have a bit of difficulty adjusting to falling asleep by themselves if they've grown accustomed to being cradled to sleep. I'm not opining in the abstract about 21st Century Americans but talking about my kids. If that makes me an "oddball" in your mind then I don't much care but we have happy children who love their parents in spite of our crazy childrearing ideas.



I'm sorry I have irritated you. I wasn't calling *you* an oddball in the least. I was calling Americans oddballs in the grand scheme of world cultures. There's a difference. And Americans *are* odd!! 

I did read your original statement as a generalization, yes. That all kids who sleep with someone will need to sleep with someone. So I was countering that generalization. Of course I can't speak to your situation.  And I wasn't trying to.

Sorry for the frustration.

C


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## Semper Fidelis

I'm not sure how somebody is suppose to observe the general trend that Americans are "oddballs" for teaching their toddlers to fall asleep in their own bed and, being an American that does, avoid the specific conclusion that one is on a fool's errand.

Anthropology is interesting but it is data and can be interpreted many different ways. I avoid trying to be prescriptive or make blanket statements that "God designed us this way..." unless the Scriptures indicate that, indeed, we have been made a certain way. Parental wisdom has some key principles and the worst thing that can be done with wisdom is to come up with every answer for parents who will take those broad ideas and turn them into laws.

I have no problem with people who decide to parent in a certain way and I offer our way as one way that we believe is consistent with our children's constitution as well as the time we have available (especially a home-schooling Mom). If others have great ideas then I'll evaluate and integrate them but I find it a bit presumptuous, in any sphere, when somebody pronounces that "God made it this way...." Wisdom is very dense and has many applications. It doesn't always lend itself into the tidy, predictable package. Were this not true then the Proverbs would simply be a "How to" guide and not a collection of aphorisms.


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## he beholds

Semper Fidelis said:


> I'm not sure how somebody is suppose to observe the general trend that Americans are "oddballs" for teaching their toddlers to fall asleep in their own bed and, being an American that does, avoid the specific conclusion that one is on a fool's errand.
> 
> Anthropology is interesting but it is data and can be interpreted many different ways. I avoid trying to be prescriptive or make blanket statements that "God designed us this way..." unless the Scriptures indicate that, indeed, we have been made a certain way. Parental wisdom has some key principles and the worst thing that can be done with wisdom is to come up with every answer for parents who will take those broad ideas and turn them into laws.
> 
> I have no problem with people who decide to parent in a certain way and I offer our way as one way that we believe is consistent with our children's constitution as well as the time we have available (especially a home-schooling Mom). If others have great ideas then I'll evaluate and integrate them but I find it a bit presumptuous, in any sphere, when somebody pronounces that "God made it this way...." Wisdom is very dense and has many applications. It doesn't always lend itself into the tidy, predictable package. Were this not true then the Proverbs would simply be a "How to" guide and not a collection of aphorisms.



Probably the best post on the PB, applicable to much more than parenting.


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## LadyFlynt

Yes, even my children prefer not to have a room to themselves because they are used to being near siblings in their sleep and they sleep better that way. There is nothing wrong with this. Other families are smaller and there isn't much room for this unless the child is sleeping in the parent's room. Most cultures are used to cosleeping in one form or another, so yes, America is one of the "oddballs" technically...it's not an insult, however, unlike how the Ezzo's view it, it doesn't make Americans to be "higher" culturally than other people.


Back to the OP...a child doesn't wake up crying out of defiance or manipulation. It sounds like there is something bothering them just as we tend to have things disturbing our sleep as well. Sometimes we know why and sometimes we don't. Also might want to rub their legs as I and my children have been known for severe leg cramps (charlie horse).


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## Semper Fidelis

I'll agree with that aspect Colleen. Our kids share rooms and prefer it that way. If that was all Camille was pointting out that we're social by nature then I think that's certainly true. Calvin sleeps in the same room as James and the two girls sleep together.

My only point was with respect to my toddlers having to grow accustomed to not being held during sleep. There is always a "weening" process that has to occur in our family.


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## he beholds

LadyFlynt said:


> Yes, even my children prefer not to have a room to themselves because they are used to being near siblings in their sleep and they sleep better that way. There is nothing wrong with this. Other families are smaller and there isn't much room for this unless the child is sleeping in the parent's room. Most cultures are used to cosleeping in one form or another, so yes, America is one of the "oddballs" technically...it's not an insult, however, unlike how the Ezzo's view it, it doesn't make Americans to be "higher" culturally than other people.
> 
> 
> Back to the OP...a child doesn't wake up crying out of defiance or manipulation. It sounds like there is something bothering them just as we tend to have things disturbing our sleep as well. Sometimes we know why and sometimes we don't. Also might want to rub their legs as I and my children have been known for severe leg cramps (charlie horse).



I am not a fan of Growing Kids God's Way (I've never read it, but from what I've heard) and I'm not a fan of the Ezzos themselves. But I don't remember in _Babywise_ anything about kids sharing rooms. Are you sure that they are against this? 
I think a kid could wake up out of manipulation. Wait, I have a two year old, I KNOW they can.


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## LadyFlynt

he beholds said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, even my children prefer not to have a room to themselves because they are used to being near siblings in their sleep and they sleep better that way. There is nothing wrong with this. Other families are smaller and there isn't much room for this unless the child is sleeping in the parent's room. Most cultures are used to cosleeping in one form or another, so yes, America is one of the "oddballs" technically...it's not an insult, however, unlike how the Ezzo's view it, it doesn't make Americans to be "higher" culturally than other people.
> 
> 
> Back to the OP...a child doesn't wake up crying out of defiance or manipulation. It sounds like there is something bothering them just as we tend to have things disturbing our sleep as well. Sometimes we know why and sometimes we don't. Also might want to rub their legs as I and my children have been known for severe leg cramps (charlie horse).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a fan of Growing Kids God's Way (I've never read it, but from what I've heard) and I'm not a fan of the Ezzos themselves. But I don't remember in _Babywise_ anything about kids sharing rooms. Are you sure that they are against this?
> I think a kid could wake up out of manipulation. Wait, I have a two year old, I KNOW they can.
Click to expand...


No, the something caused the child to wake up. The child doesn't just decide in their sleep, I'm going to wake up. The Ezzo's are very against any form of cosleeping. They may not be against the sharing of a room between siblings, but the example is simply a broader sense of the same habit/comfort.

I believe that is what Camille was pointing out, Rich. That this is normal to our nature and the other learned.


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## he beholds

The idea of family bed is not the same as kids sharing a room. Unless a family is wealthy, large families will have to have rooms being shared. I don't think that it "is simply a broader sense of the same habit/comfort." I don't think it's sinful for parents to co-sleep with their children, but *I* don't think it is wise. But that doesn't mean that the logical conclusion of my philosophy is that it is unwise for siblings to do so.


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## LadyFlynt

he beholds said:


> The idea of family bed is not the same as kids sharing a room. Unless a family is wealthy, large families will have to have rooms being shared. I don't think that it "is simply a broader sense of the same habit/comfort." I don't think it's sinful for parents to co-sleep with their children, but *I* don't think it is wise. But that doesn't mean that the logical conclusion of my philosophy is that it is unwise for siblings to do so.



I'm sorry, but you aren't getting what is being said. This isn't about family bed, large families, etc. It's about a natural comfort zone in children vs learned (or insisted upon) behaviour. A toddler is a toddler. It is normal for them to react based on their natural comfort zone. They are not always being defiant by wanting this...it's merely something that comforts them. As someone else mentioned, there is a trust issue that sometimes takes time to establish (ie., mama is going to lay you down, but mama isn't going anywhere...this is a learned and sometimes time consuming thing).


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## SpokenFor

Please do not read Babywise!!!! As a postpartum doula I have seen more than one child diagnosed as failure-to-thrive because their parents follow the Ezzo's methods.

I know that crying it out is controversial, but please let me share this: my oldest daughter would not sleep through the night starting at 4 months of age. She would wake up screaming literally every half hour. My husband and I did everything we could. We even tried homeopathics, melatonin, cranial sacral therapy, baby massage, etc. Nothing worked. We were all exhausted. At age three, one night my daughter had a grand mal (tonic clonic) seizure. Through testing (48-hour Video EEG) we came to find out that she has a rare, severe form of epilepsy called Landau Kleffner Syndrome. She has invisible seizures near constantly. Her brain misfires every 5 seconds that she is awake, and during sleep she is in a constant status seizure. THIS is why my daughter did not sleep. Now, the night she had the big seizure, she had just crawled into bed with us. We had been trying to let her cry it out for several months prior to that - insisting she stay in her bed. I cannot help but wonder how many other seizures she may have had during that time that we did not know about because we made her cry it out. 

I know our story is rare and I'm not telling you because I want pity or because I think your child has some terrible rare disease. I just don't want you to let your child CIO and look back at it with regret later.

The best thing you can give your child is patience and time. This won't last forever. At 15 months he is still a baby.

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 02:07:44 EST-----



he beholds said:


> I think a kid could wake up out of manipulation. Wait, I have a two year old, I KNOW they can.



Sorry for being dense.._how_ exactly is that possible?


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## queenknitter

I am still frustrating you, and I am sorry. That's not my intention. Believe it or not, I think we agree more than disagree. This:



Semper Fidelis said:


> Wisdom is very dense and has many applications. It doesn't always lend itself into the tidy, predictable package. Were this not true then the Proverbs would simply be a "How to" guide and not a collection of aphorisms.



I couldn't agree more!

Peace.

C

-----Added 1/27/2009 at 02:14:47 EST-----



LadyFlynt said:


> I believe that is what Camille was pointing out, Rich. That this is normal to our nature and the other learned.




 Yes.  That's all I was saying. Thanks for clarifying that for me. 

C


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## PuritanCovenanter

Heck,

I let my kids sleep with me until they didn't want to any longer. But I was a single parent most of the time. No biggy. Some people just need to get a life. Raise your kids the way you want to if it isn't mandated or has a biblical principle that indicates something is wrong.

I have always advocated that there is no single formula. Different kids grow and mature differently.


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## Mushroom

Yep, Randy, and different kids can have different preferences in this area. My eldest was never happy in bed with us or anyone else, prefers to be in her own bed in her own room. My son would stay with us some, but eventually got to be like his older sister. But my two youngest, both girls, would stay forever in Mom and Dad's bed, and can't sleep w/o each other in the same room, often in the same bed.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Brad said:


> Yep, Randy, and different kids can have different preferences in this area. My eldest was never happy in bed with us or anyone else, prefers to be in her own bed in her own room. My son would stay with us some, but eventually got to be like his older sister. But my two youngest, both girls, would stay forever in Mom and Dad's bed, and can't sleep w/o each other in the same room, often in the same bed.



I am sure the two girls will out grow it someday. Privacy becomes an issue the older they get. Eventually, if mine wanted to stay in my room they slept on the floor. I pulled out the quilts and blankets. Sam can sleep anywhere now. And he prefers a hard surface. LOL


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## he beholds

LadyFlynt said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> The idea of family bed is not the same as kids sharing a room. Unless a family is wealthy, large families will have to have rooms being shared. I don't think that it "is simply a broader sense of the same habit/comfort." I don't think it's sinful for parents to co-sleep with their children, but *I* don't think it is wise. But that doesn't mean that the logical conclusion of my philosophy is that it is unwise for siblings to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but you aren't getting what is being said. This isn't about family bed, large families, etc. It's about a natural comfort zone in children vs learned (or insisted upon) behaviour. A toddler is a toddler. It is normal for them to react based on their natural comfort zone. They are not always being defiant by wanting this...it's merely something that comforts them. As someone else mentioned, there is a trust issue that sometimes takes time to establish (ie., mama is going to lay you down, but mama isn't going anywhere...this is a learned and sometimes time consuming thing).
Click to expand...


I guess you are right--I was not getting what you were saying. I thought you were meaning that people who were for kids sharing a bedroom should also be for kids sleeping with parents. Sorry

I was typing so late last night myself b/c my own 14 month old was (randomly--I think she was reading the boards yesterday and wanted to tease me) having trouble sleeping, so I was holding her. 

I do not see anything wrong with a mom holding her child *or* with the mom trying to get the child to sleep on her own. 



SpokenFor said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a kid could wake up out of manipulation. Wait, I have a two year old, I KNOW they can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for being dense.._how_ exactly is that possible?
Click to expand...


A baby could cry when nothing is wrong. That's all I meant. My son doesn't always want to nap when it is naptime. If he cries it may be there's something wrong, or it may be that he wants me to come get him so we can go back to painting, or playing, or reading. He could even beg to go potty, just to get out of bed. I am sure that he can fight sleep just to get me to get him. That does not mean that he should not take a nap. 

We do a lot of things that our natures tell us to. I do think it is the parents job to change that in children. 

I am not saying do not hold children or anything like it, I am saying that just b/c a baby wants to be held in the middle of the night, doesn't mean that that is always the best thing for him.


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## Semper Fidelis

queenknitter said:


> I am still frustrating you, and I am sorry. That's not my intention. Believe it or not, I think we agree more than disagree. This:
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wisdom is very dense and has many applications. It doesn't always lend itself into the tidy, predictable package. Were this not true then the Proverbs would simply be a "How to" guide and not a collection of aphorisms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more!
Click to expand...


Thank you for clarifying Camille. I wasn't frustrated as much as I wanted to make sure I drew out where our own views on the nature of children can go astray and come across as insisting on _a_ child-rearing formula. I certainly never turn down advice (and I'm not saying you believe this) but some people baptize their advice as the insight to children.

There was a time, I think, when we took some of this advice and made it somewhat mechanistic and then realized that our children were much more unpredictable and unique than the books implied.

I appreciate your clarification.

Shifting trails a bit, I think it is dangerous when folks write books about this kind of stuff. I think the "How to" Baby-guides appeal to the fundamentalist in many Christians that want the kind of rules/response that the Ezzos will offer. It's not that every idea the Ezzos and others have as far as _techniqe_ is wrong but, without mentorship, people become Pharisaically rigid in their discipline.

We're going through a pretty good book on men with my Church and the author is doing everything he can to write a book that is not a "fix the man" kind of book because we're always looking for steps. With any book, however, it is inevitable that the insights get turned into rigid rules and we forget the fundamentals of the Gospel in the conversion of the heart. Techniques are tools toward an end but can become an end to themselves and forget that point - a wooden spoon or a child who is sleeping with Mom and Dad is not a means of grace. It's just an outgrowth of a Mom and Dad who are either guided by the Gospel on the one hand or following a formula that is going to produce a "happy, obedient child" on the other.

This forum allows better interaction than a book so it's not as dangerous as a book but I'm always weary of being too prescriptive. We get calls from friends sometimes who have new kids and want to know "how to" and we are really careful with that. We give them pointers but we always want to ground them in the goal. Thus, somebody once asked me if it is sinful not to spank your kid and I gave them a somewhat complicated answer because I didn't want them to start "spanking by numbers". 

I think this is the way advice should be dispensed: relationally and with qualifications. The better I know someone and their situation, the more I'm likely to offer more ideas. The less I know, the less I want to be too prescriptive.


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## he beholds

I recognized that desire for a new law:"just tell me what to do to be a good mommy," when I did try to read all that I could when I began parenting! I agree that how-to books can become that new law. If the end goal of the reader is, in fact, "tell me what to do to be a good mommy," then the book will not work, but if it is "how to make pudding," or "how to run a marathon," or yes, even, "how to get a routine that helps your kids sleep," I don't think that is becoming a law, b/c steps _can_ bring about an expected effect. 
Does that make one a better parent? NO! And _Babywise_ fails miserably by asserting that it does!! 
What I like about that book is that it does offer the idea of routines, whereas much of the other parenting advice out there does not. And that is what I took from it. But others may breathe every word of a book like that, and end up in agony, when life is still not perfect!


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## queenknitter

Semper Fidelis said:


> I wasn't frustrated as much as I wanted to make sure I drew out where our own views on the nature of children can go astray and come across as insisting on _a_ child-rearing formula.



Yeah, see -- we really do agree more than not on this point.  A friend of mine was saying the other day at how *few* child-rearing formulas are in the history of Christianity. She had been studying/reading Jonathan Edwards and . . . . I can't remember who else. And she just was impressed with how _un_formulaic it all is. 

It's like formalizing food/diet. Not everyone likes chicken or chocolate or coffee. Some people eat bugs. Drinking motor oil is generally a bad idea. And that's about as general a formula as we can make about it.

Anyway, I'm glad we worked through the seeming conflict. As my hubby says, looks like we were having a heated agreement. 

C


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## LadyFlynt

You spoke to several concerns I've had, Rich, thank you.

On the fundamentalism: Many parents start with good intentions down one of these paths (Ezzo, Gothard, Pearl) looking for THE Method to raising children. Unfortunately it becomes more of a child responding to the consequence rather than the principle. The Method doesn't take into account that each child is different and we should be working on a relationship with our children to raise them, not a method to train them to act as we demand (yes, we need obedience...but it's the why they are obeying, because dad said or because dad is going to this, that, or the other if I don't?). Some of us have either experienced or seen the results of these methods that worked so well in the younger years blow up in everyone's face later and have damaged relationships (and in some cases, the health/life of a child).


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## Semper Fidelis

Amen to all three.

I think we ought to be wise enough to recognize the common grace in ideas wherever they come from. I've learned people skills and leadership ideas from rank pagans. When we note that man is created in the Image of God, we don't have to have a rigid "proof texting" approach to wisdom that is no wisdom at all.

Rather, we stay grounded in the Scriptures and try to integrate good _ideas_ or _techniques_ that not only help our kids learn certain things or keep us sane but are tools toward the _end_ we have in mind. It's not the tools that are bad but how we use them and what kind of child, by God's grace, we are aiming to raise. 

The reason why these books fall short for me is that I'm not convinced many of the authors even know what that end is.


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## queenknitter

Semper Fidelis said:


> The reason why these books fall short for me is that I'm not convinced many of the authors even know what that end is.



Sadly, I agree. Sigh. . . . But that's another discussion and probably a long one. 

C


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## Honor

my youngest STILL crawls in the bed with us every night sometime in the middle of the night... when? I have no idea I don't wake up anymore.


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## he beholds

Honor said:


> my youngest STILL crawls in the bed with us every night sometime in the middle of the night... when? I have no idea I don't wake up anymore.



Haha! My husband and I were actually more excited to put our son in a real bed than he was, because now _we_ can crawl into bed with _him_!


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## Grace Alone

I'm late to this question, but I'd recommend that you stop feeding him milk during the night. By doing this, you are bascially training him to be hungry at that time, so he might wake up and be hungry during the night forever! You may have a few rough nights once you take that away, but he'll eventually get the message that you're not going to feed him in the middle of the night. It's just not necessary at that age.


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## Theognome

I am kidless, but my mom used to add some dry oatmeal to my formula (and give it time to saturate) before bedtime. According to her, it gave some substance to my evening meal and caused me to sleep the night.

Theognome


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