# Trueman, "No Country for Old Men?" at Reformation 21



## NaphtaliPress (Jul 18, 2012)

No Country for Old Men? - Reformation21
Just read this. The section below; does it cut only against the liberal PCUSA (which is I assume the church in question in the piece)? Second, I responded to the gentleman by asking what exactly it means for the standards to remain in place. We need, after all, to be wary of what we might call the 'ecclesiastical root' fallacy which sees the orthodox origins of the denomination as permanently sanctifying, or at least relativising, any subsequent developments regarding confessional documents and their function. ​​Thus, if a church never enforces its confessional standards, or so attenuates its ministerial vows that the substance of the standards has no practical significance, then those standards have gone, whatever nostalgic function they might still fulfill on paper. To put the matter in blunt, judicial terms: you can tell a church's real confessional standards, theological and moral, by looking at the minutes of disciplinary proceedings and seeing what the church disciplines people for teaching or doing. When a church's procedures are uncoupled from orthodoxy, the game is more or less over. If I can hold office in a church and teach with impunity that the Virgin Birth is a fiction or that there is universal salvation, then these things are part of the functional creed of that church.​​


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## Unoriginalname (Jul 18, 2012)

I saw that a couple days ago and I had a sneaking suspicion that it was more about the RCA because he was stating the the split has not happened yet. That said I thought it was a great article and helped me get a good glimpse at why people stay in churches like that.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 18, 2012)

I was part of a Baptist congregation that had a Calvinistic statement of faith, but non-confessional. The big problem was that several elders held to semi-Pelagian (former AoG) doctrine, and taught accordingly. The problem comes down to what I would call "truth in advertising". Don't claim to hold to stated doctrine if you do not. I would say the OP is an "if the shoe fits, wear it" address to people/congregations/denominations that are inconsistent with what is written and what is believed/taught.


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## Marrow Man (Jul 18, 2012)

I also thought he gave a nice tip of the hat to the ARP (and RTS-Charlotte) in the article. Denominations can become more orthodox/conservative, but it requires a return to the word of God, and godly ministers have to be trained up in that word.



> Practically, however, if a denomination has no institution for training ministers in a manner consistent with the historic confessions, the potential for developing a realistic strategy for turning things around is next to none. Denominations which have become more orthodox - the American ARP's being the most obvious recent example - typically owe their transformation to good ministerial training institutions; in the ARP's case such came primarily from RTS-Charlotte. Confessionalists in a mixed denomination which requires all candidates to be funneled at some point through a less-than-solid denominational institution have a major strategic problem.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 18, 2012)

I'll just say that I know one of the men who was a commissioner to the "mixed denomination" synod prior to which Trueman spoke. (kudos Eric)


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## J. Dean (Jul 18, 2012)

Trueman, I fear, is right about the denominational splits to come. Though they're not Calvinist, I see the Nazarene denomination going in this direction, as there is a small but vocal liberal number that seems to be getting more and more influence among the members. Also, the Assemblies of God have opened the door for theistic evolution in their doctrine of Creation, and that in and of itself is a foothold for doctrinal liberalism to take and begin its spread.

We talked about this somewhere else, but it's true no matter what: the first step away from orthodoxy is a failure to hold to the Scriptures as the inspired and inerrant Word of God. When a lack of faith in the sufficiency and authority of Scripture takes hold (or when people start saying "Well this passage doesn't _really_ mean this...", it's the beginning of trouble.


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## SRoper (Jul 18, 2012)

I believe Dr. Trueman is referring to the RCA Integrity Leadership Conference.


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## mvdm (Jul 18, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> When a lack of faith in the sufficiency and authority of Scripture takes hold (or when people start saying "Well this passage doesn't really mean this...", it's the beginning of trouble.



This would be the core of the issue. As Trueman said, no denomination is immune to the problem. I already see some clouds on the horizon in our young federation, but by God's grace working through faithful men, they will dissipate.


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## Marrow Man (Jul 18, 2012)

SRoper said:


> I believe Dr. Trueman is referring to the RCA Integrity Leadership Conference.



I've now downloaded the audio. Thanks for posting!


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## sgemmen9 (Jul 18, 2012)

Hey! This actually is not referring about PCUSA at all in this RARE instance. I was just an RCA Integrity Conference and Carl Trueman was speaking. All of the points that he stated at the conference are reiterated here. He was actually dealing more with issues in the RCA/CRC, but his blog post is applied more broadly to apply to evangelicalism.

I think the orthodox root he is referring to here is the historic roots of the RCA that many are still clinging on to even though the denomination is not confessional like it once was. Moreover, the matter of church discipline was discussed. It is not strictly enforced in many RCA churches. In fact, few churches are even preaching "repentance" it seems. I hope this helps.


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## Wayne (Jul 18, 2012)

Thanks for the link, Scott. 

This was a nice touch in that conference notice:



> Does this mean Trueman is now a celebrity pastor? No. This is a very small conference and we will try to treat Carl poorly.


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