# How to Protest Christmas at Work



## Catechist (Nov 9, 2006)

Dear Reader,

For those of you that are convinced that celebrating Christmas on 12/25 is wrong in your homes and at church, how do you best, legally, protest the celebration day at work.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 9, 2006)

Avoid, ignore, keep busy. If somebody says "Merry Christmas" say "enjoy your holiday." with a slight emphasis on *your*. If somebody really pushes it, you might get an opportunity.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 9, 2006)

There is nothing to protest...

The boss is Beachy and gives his workers the day off as it is a religious holy day for them (though they bann the tree and decor...they have service that is required attendance). So for the boss to attend to his religious duties, he pays his workers (all two of them) to stay home


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## Kevin (Nov 9, 2006)

Catechist said:


> Dear Reader,
> 
> For those of you that are convinced that celebrating Christmas on 12/25 is wrong in your homes and at church, how do you best, legally, protest the celebration day at work.



Here are a few ideas I came up with... 


10)Wear grinch costume to office (be sure NOT to purchase from halloween store)

9) Refuse to allow Cratchitt any extra coal for office stove.

8) say "go stuff your turkey, pagan boy!" to any client who wishes you a merry Christmas.

7) get can that looks like mixed nuts only has fake snake inside to give to any carolers who stop by.

6) "Kwanza Cards for everybody!"

5) suggest that company send out xxxmas cards this year!

4) threaten co-workers with 'aunt Nellie's famous fruitcake' if they play "Frosty the Snowman" over office PA system one more time.

3) Say; "stay at home with the family and reminise about the 'good ol days' when pagans like you were burned at the stake." when asked if you have any special plans for the holidays.

2) Visit orphanage dressed in santa suit and then yell "CHRISTMAS IS A ROMANO-PAGAN FESTIVAL" at the kids before giving them an (unwrapped) copy of the WCF.


And the number one way to protest Christmas this year is....

Say " I'm jewish" to anyone who wishes you "Merry Christmas".


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## crhoades (Nov 9, 2006)

Post pictures of the Grinch and Scrooge all over your cubicle with cartoon bubbles that say "Leave me alone"


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## caddy (Nov 9, 2006)

Kevin said:


> Here are a few ideas I came up with...
> 
> 
> 10)Wear grinch costume to office (be sure NOT to purchase from halloween store)
> ...


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## KenPierce (Nov 9, 2006)

Kevin,

Is that taken from the book, Winsome Truly Reformed Christians in an Age of Obviously Non-Elect Pagan Broad Evangelicals?

          

Some of us will look for any excuse to celebrate, especially God's great saving acts towards the Hell-deserving children of men.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 9, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> There is nothing to protest...
> 
> The boss is Beachy and gives his workers the day off as it is a religious holy day for them (though they bann the tree and decor...they have service that is required attendance). So for the boss to attend to his religious duties, he pays his workers (all two of them) to stay home


 
I know the author of this thread. He may be working on the 25th due to the profession that he's in.

Which reminds me. In situations where I take my turn in an on-call rota, I usually offer to do it that week since it can be a workday for me.


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## Theoretical (Nov 9, 2006)

Kevin said:


> Here are a few ideas I came up with...
> 
> 
> 10)Wear grinch costume to office (be sure NOT to purchase from halloween store)
> ...


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 9, 2006)

I'm going to Christ-mass at the local Catholic church and light candles while wearing a scarlet robe with half a grapefruit on my head and thank them for giving us this joyous occasion!


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## BobVigneault (Nov 9, 2006)

I feel sorry for the heathens when they encounter the 'big R' Reformed. Three fourths of the church are trying to get them to acknowledge the 'reason for the season' and 'keep Christ in Christmas' and then we show up. We tell them we don't want any part of their pagan festival, we light a cigar and down a half tumbler of 12 year old scotch. They are so confused regarding what we christians want. They can't be expected to track what the whole visible church is doing.


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## KenPierce (Nov 9, 2006)

James,

What's the significance of the half of grapefruit?

Why not come over to Draper's Valley, and commune with the people of God on Christmas Eve, which, in God's providence, falls on the Lord's Day this year.       by      

Okay, I am too in love with these emoticons.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 9, 2006)

I will joyfully go to service, sing hymns (wishing it were the psalter though), and listen to exhortation...as long as they keep the idols out of the foyer.


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## caddy (Nov 9, 2006)

How true this is....




BobVigneault said:


> I feel sorry for the heathens when they encounter the 'big R' Reformed. Three fourths of the church are trying to get them to acknowledge the 'reason for the season' and 'keep Christ in Christmas' and then we show up. We tell them we don't want any part of their pagan festival, we light a cigar and down a half tumbler of 12 year old scotch. They are so confused regarding what we christians want. They can't be expected to track what the whole visible church is doing.


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 9, 2006)

KenPierce said:


> James,
> 
> What's the significance of the half of grapefruit?
> 
> ...



That's so I can look like the Pope!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 9, 2006)

Every year I wear my "You're a mean one Mr. Grinch" tie to work to mark the festivities.


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## Catechist (Nov 9, 2006)

Andrew, I like the new avatar, you and Jessica are looking good having not seen you for some time. Guess I'll have to get me an ole' Grinch tie while frowning upon the upcoming popish/pagan ceremonies. 

Jay, thanks for opportunity tip, I'm be sure to take it if available.


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## rjlynam (Nov 9, 2006)

BobVigneault said:


> I feel sorry for the heathens when they encounter the 'big R' Reformed. Three fourths of the church are trying to get them to acknowledge the 'reason for the season' and 'keep Christ in Christmas' and then we show up. We tell them we don't want any part of their pagan festival, we light a cigar and down a half tumbler of 12 year old scotch. They are so confused regarding what we christians want. They can't be expected to track what the whole visible church is doing.






And we espouse the "we should celebrate our Savior's advent everyday". Do we? Let's be honest here. I'm not saying I agree with any of the pagan aspects of Christmas, but shouldn't we use the opportunity to be a witness to those may not have "arrived", so to speak? I wonder why we get all balled up in our shorts over such things.


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## Gregg (Nov 10, 2006)

Refuse the $$ when your boss gives the office/shop the day off with pay. Or refuse being paid the extra money for working on a holiday. (If you're protesting, then why should you benefit at all by it).


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 10, 2006)

Every time somebody says Merry Christmas to me, I'll smile as they walk by as if I appreciate the comment. I will then jump them from behind, put them in a blood choke and knock them unconscious. I'll then take out my indellible black marker and write all over their face:
"POPE LOVER!!"

I ask myself all the time: WWUPD - What Would an Unbalanced Presbyterian Do?


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## BobVigneault (Nov 10, 2006)

It's time to insert the chorus from Steve Taylor's song "Smug":



> All you smug-starved millions in the thick of the search
> Welcome to our church
> Whatcha wanna solve?
> We can help you evolve from merely self-righteous
> To perfectly smug


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 10, 2006)

Catechist said:


> Andrew, I like the new avatar, you and Jessica are looking good having not seen you for some time. Guess I'll have to get me an ole' Grinch tie while frowning upon the upcoming popish/pagan ceremonies.



Thanks Kevin! It's good to see you on the board brother!  

As a reminder as to who this thread is directed to:



Catechist said:


> Dear Reader,
> 
> *For those of you that are convinced that celebrating Christmas on 12/25 is wrong in your homes and at church*, how do you best, legally, protest the celebration day at work.


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## BJClark (Nov 10, 2006)

Gregg;




> Refuse the $$ when your boss gives the office/shop the day off with pay. Or refuse being paid the extra money for working on a holiday. (If you're protesting, then why should you benefit at all by it).



I agree, so if your going protest, you should also refuse to take the year end Christmas Bonus some companies give...


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## kvanlaan (Nov 10, 2006)

Over here we still celebrate it - it is simply too critical a witnessing tool and so many are searching at that time of year. It is a new celebration to the locals and the commercialization of the season is already hitting disturbing levels here. 

Count me in with the papist heretics for now...


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## Kevin (Nov 10, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Every time somebody says Merry Christmas to me, I'll smile as they walk by as if I appreciate the comment. I will then jump them from behind, put them in a blood choke and knock them unconscious. I'll then take out my indellible black marker and write all over their face:
> "POPE LOVER!!"
> 
> I ask myself all the time: WWUPD - What Would an Unbalanced Presbyterian Do?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 10, 2006)

KenPierce said:


> James,
> 
> What's the significance of the half of grapefruit?
> 
> ...




If God permits, I will be there brother!!! Without the half a grapefruit on my head. You gonna get me a present???


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 10, 2006)

Gregg said:


> Refuse the $$ when your boss gives the office/shop the day off with pay. Or refuse being paid the extra money for working on a holiday. (If you're protesting, then why should you benefit at all by it).



Because if it were your choice you would be working and can't afford the lost day of wages against your will. The boss is paying for the inconvenience.


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## BJClark (Nov 10, 2006)

Why not instead of protesting against it completely, use it as a time to volunteer your time and resources to help those less fortunate? (as is the calling of Christians anyway)

if you don't agree with the tree and gift giving to your own family, why not go to a soup kitchen and give of your time, or give a gift to those who don't have things you do? 

Isn't that what God did for us, gave to us something we needed but didn't have, and could never get without His help? 

Instead of judging those who don't hold your view, be the example to them by your actions. Live your faith, instead. 

Instead of giving snide remarks if they ask you what you'll be doing (which is certainly NOT Christ-like), you could let them know, well, as a family we don't celebrate the day by giving gifts to each other, but we will be giving of our time to these things...as Christ calls us to help the poor among us.


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## BobVigneault (Nov 10, 2006)

Hey you guys, let's remember to apply the proper hermeneutic to this thread. I'm relatively certain that 99% of this thread is meant to be tongue in cheek. IT'S FUNNY! So have some fun with it. 

A very small minority, taking advantage of 'internet bravado', are showing us their bluster and talking tough but they will conduct themselves in a manner worthy of the gospel in real life.

Most of our brothers and sisters on the board will follow BJ's excellent advice because that's how we are in real life. That is the working out of good doctrine.

But watch those hairy triggers everyone. Don't be afraid to laugh and have some fun.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 10, 2006)

Catechist said:


> Dear Reader,
> 
> For those of you that are convinced that celebrating Christmas on 12/25 is wrong in your homes and at church, how do you best, legally, protest the celebration day at work.


In the Life of John Murray the following incident is retold by Norman Shepherd:On one occasion several of us were standing with Professor Murray by the bulletin board in Machen Hall in which at that time virtually the whole seminary, exclusive of the library were housed. As we talked informally, a mother and her four- or five-year-old son came up to us. It was the Spring of the year, and the boy had carefully decorated an Easter egg for Professor Murray and now wanted to make the presentation. We watched as the good man accepted the gift with hearty thanks, reinforced with a hug for the child. Pharisees that we were, as soon as mother and child were out of ear-shot, we pounced on the teacher (in a nice way, of course). How could one who was opposed to the observance of religious holiday accept the gift of an Easter egg? Was this not compromise with principle? His answer: 'Receive all things with thanksgiving, asking no questions for conscience for conscience sake.' He walked away with the egg, leaving us devastated and properly rebuked. Iain H. Murray, _Life of John Murray, _Works 3, p. 102.​That said, if I may drop the other shoe. Maybe I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and left my sense of humor snoozing, but I do not find the humor of this thread void of offense; it has really gone to ridicule in my opinion. Are we unhinged Presbyterians, those of us who've struggled with this, simply because we consider such a question worth asking and taking seriously?


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## BobVigneault (Nov 10, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Every time somebody says Merry Christmas to me, I'll smile as they walk by as if I appreciate the comment. I will then jump them from behind, put them in a blood choke and knock them unconscious. I'll then take out my indellible black marker and write all over their face:
> "POPE LOVER!!"
> 
> I ask myself all the time: WWUPD - What Would an Unbalanced Presbyterian Do?



Come on Chris, now that is a funny word picture. I keep running this vignette over in my mind and I laugh every time. Lt. Col. Rich in uniform blind siding some unsuspecting starry eyed neophyte and scratching "Pope Lover!!" on his forehead with a Sharpie. I'm dying! Then he gets up off the guy, brushes out the wrinkles and walks away saying smugly, "and a Happey New Year too." That's FUNNY because it's so out of character for our dear brother!


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## caddy (Nov 10, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Every time somebody says Merry Christmas to me, I'll smile as they walk by as if I appreciate the comment. I will then jump them from behind, put them in a blood choke and knock them unconscious. I'll then take out my indellible black marker and write all over their face:
> "POPE LOVER!!"
> 
> I ask myself all the time: WWUPD - What Would an Unbalanced Presbyterian Do?


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 10, 2006)

Bob,
I guess it's lost on me. I read it as an exaggeration ridiculing those even pondering the question of whether we should protest the holy day at work. There is still plenty of exasperation with the Xmas Tree thread I guess and it appears to me some have hijacked this thread as another vehicle to express it.



BobVigneault said:


> Come on Chris, now that is a funny word picture. I keep running this vignette over in my mind and I laugh every time. Lt. Col. Rich in uniform blind siding some unsuspecting starry eyed neophyte and scratching "Pope Lover!!" on his forehead with a Sharpie. I'm dying! Then he gets up off the guy, brushes out the wrinkles and walks away saying smugly, "and a Happey New Year too." That's FUNNY because it's so out of character for our dear brother!


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 10, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Bob,
> I guess it's lost on me. I read it as an exaggeration ridiculing those even pondering the question of whether we should protest the holy day at work. There is still plenty of exasperation with the Xmas Tree thread I guess and it appears to me some have hijacked this thread as another vehicle to express it.


 
Thank you, Chris. I thought I was the only one who had that concern; but was thinking I might be better off not posting anything further on this thread, having set myself up previously when I attempted to answer the author's question. Dec 25th is apparently an emotional issue across the diversity of options on how to spend it. I'll probably end up regretting that I posted this message as well.


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## BobVigneault (Nov 10, 2006)

I understand what you are saying Chris and Jay. I bailed out of the Christmas Tree thread when I saw the long knives come out. I am amazed every year at the shrill noises created by the subject of Christmas.

I'm bailing out of this thread as well.

“Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."


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## Gregg (Nov 10, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> Because if it were your choice you would be working and can't afford the lost day of wages against your will. The boss is paying for the inconvenience.



I see your point here. Why not ask the boss if you can work then? (In the case of a woodworking shop, there are always machines needing oiling/cleaning, and other maint. tasks that cut into production time that could always be done on a non production day).

Or in office work, there is always paperwork/tasks to be caught up on.


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## Gregg (Nov 10, 2006)

BJClark said:


> Gregg;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't think of that. I wonder how many of the die hard protesters would turn that down?

(note: I'm not against celebrating or not celebrating).


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 10, 2006)

Gregg said:


> I see your point here. Why not ask the boss if you can work then? (In the case of a woodworking shop, there are always machines needing oiling/cleaning, and other maint. tasks that cut into production time that could always be done on a non production day).
> 
> Or in office work, there is always paperwork/tasks to be caught up on.


Because for them it is a required religious observance. They HAVE to attend meeting. The shop is on the family property (next to the house). It just isn't done (dealing with amish culture here). They could get into trouble if they have him on the property working Christmas day...unless he was helping birth a calf or milk a cow. But it's a woodshop. They can't have him there.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 10, 2006)

I do not see any requirement to openly protest or call unnecessary attention to ourselves.

For those of us opposed to the prevailing customary celebrations that take place on December 25th, I think we can make that clear to others without having to become self-righteous or obnoxious and uncharitable about it. Ridicule and scorn will happen, sadly even within the church and yes lately, even here on the Puritanboard, but why should we act in such a way as to provoke others to express it?

This is a recap of what I've learned over the years:

From Thanksgiving until after December 25th, my goal is to draw as little attention to myself as possible. Like

work heads down
keep conversations as brief and to the point as possible
avoid wearing red or green
eat lunch in my cubicle
be friendly, but no more nor less than at any other time of the year
I do offer to swap with people in on-call rotations. I do not insist on working that day. December 25th is a day off, courtesy of the state, as is July 4th. I will take a paid day off from work on any one of the 259-261 weekdays any time my employer or Uncle Sam or the governor cares to give it to me, and I will be most thankful for it!

If my employer offers me a bonus, a gift, or a meal out; that's also fine with me, I'll gladly accept it with thanks. OTOH, if it's a "Christmas party", I simply regret.

The typical unavoidable question at work: "So, are you all set for Christmas?" "Well, no, I'm not." There may be an opportunity. If they assume control of the conversation, I politely excuse myself. Usually an answer to the first question terminates the conversation, hopefully on still friendly and open terms.

And then there are the post-mortems:
"Did you have a good Christmas?" "No, we skipped it as usual."
"Was Santa Claus good to you?" "No."
"What all did you do for Christmas?" "I took the 25th off like everybody else and did (whatever)."


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## Average Joey (Nov 10, 2006)

Guys,these posts have been pretty funny but there are really some problems with all of this.What about giving and accepting gifts?This will be our child`s first.I am a part of a Reformed church and we have many special ways of celebrating Christmas.But,it has nothing to do with the whole catholic paganism thing.Don`t you think in many ways we are being very legalistic in this matter?It is a totally different holiday from what it began as.We celebrate His life,death,and resurrection.It has nothing to do with Christ-Mass.It`s just in word only.


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## Catechist (Nov 10, 2006)

I had hoped to get some good comments and appreciate those who have answered the question soberly. This is obviously a hard subject for us all and I have had many of my own struggles with trying to get through the "season".
Having such convictions as I do, I should rather ask, if such convictions should be brought into the civil workplace at all? Is it an uneccessary offence to do so?

I received an email that caused me to ponder the above question more soberly, myself. I do sincerely apologize if I have caused anyone any undue offence. I am as much learning about this subject as anyone else who struggles with working out their faith and practice over such an issue. I do not tend to portray that someone is more spiritual because they have more strict principles. Often the case, I have found the opposite to be true. 

Consider, "there is a sense in which all of life ought to be "religious" insofar as it ought to be lived in every context to the glory of God. I realise, though, that we usually use that term "religious" to mean something more directly related to matters of salvation and worship. Our society tends to view "Christmas" as a "religious" holiday in that latter sense." 

"But while all of life is "religious" in the former sense (pertaining to the glory of our Creator), not all of life is ecclesiastical! That which is ecclesiastical (i.e., proper to the Church as such) comes under the special care and scrutiny required by the second commandment. Thus, while it would be sin for the Church to pretend to institute extra-biblical holy days, it is not sinful for other societies to mark out special days of celebration."

"Families celebrate birthdays. Nations tend to commemorate the birth of their founders or other famous rulers. It seems to me that the civil sphere is really a very appropriate context for celebrating the birth of the King above all kings."

"Now I grant that our society has no more right motives for Nativity than they do for the Thanksgiving holiday. But, as *civil* holidays, neither of those is morally objectionable -- if restricted to societies other than the Church."

I hope to tender this thread for all who might engage their insight to an end in which we hope to help one another.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 10, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Bob,
> I guess it's lost on me. I read it as an exaggeration ridiculing those even pondering the question of whether we should protest the holy day at work. There is still plenty of exasperation with the Xmas Tree thread I guess and it appears to me some have hijacked this thread as another vehicle to express it.



Perhaps Chris. I'll let those who look for opportunities to be offended to be offended. I used humor as a form of rebuke in the thread. I don't believe we are those who are called to "protest". I frankly find the idea that somebody is going to go around work and tell people that Christmas is a pagan and Roman Catholic festival and dishonoring to God to be incredibly rude and non-Christian.

Frankly, there are at least a thousand other things throughout the year, on a daily basis, that are much more worthy of our consternation. The regular blasphemy, woman chaplains, daily Mass celebrated in the chapel, etc. Why on Earth would I single out Christmas to make Presbyterians look like so many Pharisees?

My purpose was not offense but rebuke. People need to quite straining out gnats. The idea of protesting Christmas is patently ridiculous and not just a little bit of navel gazing as if our religious sensibilities are worthy of public display.

In the same way I don't want a Muslim Marine running through the hallways yelling at women for not covering their bodies in full garb, I'm not going to single out Christmas to tell all the non-particular Presbyterians to "be just like me or you're not a Christian!"


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## Average Joey (Nov 10, 2006)

joshua said:


> It depends on what you're saying. Since there is no command to observe "Christmass", then it would be binding upon one's conscience if the Church had a stated "Christmas" service, as if to distinguish it from any other Lord's Day (i.e. set it apart, i.e. make it holy) service. Jesus is not merely the "reason for the season", He is the reason for all times, everywhere. He holds all things, and in Him all things consist. It is reprehensible to set aside a time in which we exalt Him moreso than the rest of the year, when it ought to be our every waking breath in which we do this...and particularly, the Lord's Day, which He has set apart for congregational worship. To force the celebration of Christmas in a Christian sense on a Christian's conscience is to go beyond Scripture...thus, the Church should avoid doing so...and to do such, my friend, is making doctrine out of the commandments of men...Legalism.
> 
> It's amazing to me that this thread was to be for those who do not celebrate Christmas in sense of it being a "Christian" holy day, and yet, more criticisms and jokes are directed at those who have, by conscience, decided they will not. There are multiple other threads in which one's disagreements with such a stance can be discussed, but this isn't that one.
> 
> ...




Now,I do agree with you.I am just confused by some of the posts beforehand which say for us to not be polite to others who do say "Merry Christmas" and celebrate it somewhat.If somebody says "Merry Christmas" it is polite to say it back.Not to be some stuck up theological prude(not directed to you Joshua).That is way to modern fundamentalist-like.Maybe if you are friends you can explain your views about it but not shooting a person down for making this comment.Remember we are the salt of the earth.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 10, 2006)

Rich,
_LOOK _for opportunities for offense? Are you serious!? Give me a break brother. You have construed and caricatured "protest" as something that has to be carried on in the worst possible manner. Clearly it does not as the advice for the most part shows. The thread was about the "how" after all was it not? And the question was only directed to those convinced it was a question to even be concerned about! Good grief Charlie Brown (yea, that is probably a minced oath; didn't look it up).




SemperFideles said:


> Perhaps Chris. I'll let those who look for opportunities to be offended to be offended. I used humor as a form of rebuke in the thread. I don't believe we are those who are called to "protest". I frankly find the idea that somebody is going to go around work and tell people that Christmas is a pagan and Roman Catholic festival and dishonoring to God to be incredibly rude and non-Christian.
> 
> Frankly, there are at least a thousand other things throughout the year, on a daily basis, that are much more worthy of our consternation. The regular blasphemy, woman chaplains, daily Mass celebrated in the chapel, etc. Why on Earth would I single out Christmas to make Presbyterians look like so many Pharisees?
> 
> ...


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## historyb (Nov 10, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Perhaps Chris. I'll let those who look for opportunities to be offended to be offended. I used humor as a form of rebuke in the thread. I don't believe we are those who are called to "protest". I frankly find the idea that somebody is going to go around work and tell people that Christmas is a pagan and Roman Catholic festival and dishonoring to God to be incredibly rude and non-Christian.
> 
> Frankly, there are at least a thousand other things throughout the year, on a daily basis, that are much more worthy of our consternation. The regular blasphemy, woman chaplains, daily Mass celebrated in the chapel, etc. Why on Earth would I single out Christmas to make Presbyterians look like so many Pharisees?
> 
> ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 10, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Rich,
> _LOOK _for opportunities for offense? Are you serious!? Give me a break brother. You have construed and caricatured "protest" as something that has to be carried on in the worst possible manner. Clearly it does not as the advice for the most part shows. The thread was about the "how" after all was it not? And the question was only directed to those convinced it was a question to even be concerned about! Good grief Charlie Brown (yea, that is probably a minced oath; didn't look it up).



OK, I am prone to using hyperbole. Here is the issue as I see it: my hyperbole and the humor represents a difference of _degree_ and not of _desire_. If it were up to the "Non-Christmas Tree-ers" the point of their protest is "knock it off, I have a problem with Christmas and I don't want you celebrating it either...."

This goes to the heart of liberty of conscience. The standard should never be: "Prove to me that you have liberty to do something that I have a problem with...." Rather, the standard is: "Keep your convicted mouth shut unless you have divine warrant to bind the consciences of others with your conviction...."

I have a number of problems with the discussion of Christmas Trees.

1. You think my hyperbole is bad? How about all the other Pharisees calling me an Idolater because I innocuously have a tree in my living room? Yes, I called you Pharisees and you need to knock it off.

2. The genesis of the prohibition against Christmas trees is oft ripped out of its historical context as well as the cry for liberty concerning it. It is one thing to be protesting against being _forced_ to celebrate a religious festival based on the convictions of others in a State. It is quite another thing to _force_ other people to _not_ celebrate a secular custom because you have a problem with it.

3. Secular custom: that's all Christmas and Christmas trees are to most people these days. Assume I'm a Marine walking the ruins of Ancient Babylon (which I have by the way - very cool) and I find a stick under some rubble. The curator says: "Hey thanks for liberating this town. Saddam planted his palace on top of the hill and we're glad to see him gone...." (this is 2003 so they still liked us then after all). In his gratitude he lets me keep the stick. I bring the stick home and display it on my wall as some cool looking stick. Years later, some professor of Middle Easter antiquity visits my home for dinner and remarks: "Wow! Where _did_ you get that Asherah Pole?!

The question is: Was I an idolater because I had a pole in my house that was once worshipped by people a few thousand years ago?

That question comes up after all in the Epistles and Paul tells people that its OK to eat meat that, within their own lifetime, they once attached religious significance to.

It drives me nuts how some Presbyterians like to dig up old texts and learn stuff from folks and quote Puritans like they're quoting Scripture, out of historical context, and then be like the curator that's telling people that their trees are pagan symbols as if they symbolism adheres to the tree itself! It almost seems like some are digging in old texts looking for things to be more scrupulous about. One day I have a tree with lights but I'm not content to live with the liberty of conscience to have a tree with lights in my house, I need to find a Puritan tell me that it's an idol so I can take away something that was once indifferent.

Of course, I'm not content to stop there. Now that it's my conviction, I need to tell everybody in the Church what I learned about Christmas Trees. I want to make sure they don't have liberty either now that it's become a scruple for me. In ever larger concentric circles, I want to go to the pagan himself and bind his conscience with the same conviction.

Give me a break!

4. The larger issue is what "rights" do we have to bind others' consciences with our convictions. If they're Biblical then it is up to the Church to declare such convictions as they comport with the Scriptures. It is not enough to cite Gillespie. If you're going to bind the consciences of believers to say that a tree with lights is idolatry then you need to present the Scriptural case and not merely point to a historical abuse of the symbol as if everybody is still living in the 16th Century and being put in the stocks for refusing to celebrate Christmas in their Churches.

As an _individual_ however among other believers, you have the liberty within your own conscience to be convicted that _for you_ it is sin. For other believers - YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Do you suppose the Jews might have had a _problem_ with the Gentiles bringing Chitlins to Church meals? The _stronger_ brethren (in this case the GENTILES and not the Jews) should not flaunt their liberty if they know it offended the Jews or caused them to sin. BUT, the Jews had no right to turn around and bind the conscience of the Gentiles with their convictions - THAT is Pharasaism and we should WITHSTAND THAT SPIRIT TO ITS FACE.

IN CONCLUSION:

If you have a conviction that Christmas Trees are a sin for you then for you it is sin. You are the weaker brother and I will not flaunt my liberty and wear Christmas garb in your home. BUT DON'T YOU DARE think that you have any right before God to bind the conscience of a man where the Word has left it free. In so doing you are denying the Gospel of Christ and I suggest you read Calvin's commentary on Romans 14.


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## rjlynam (Nov 10, 2006)

Interesting points about the tree idea Chris.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 10, 2006)

Rich, I'm not going to address your post in detail, or go over old ground, except to say, it was a long way of admitting that you brought considerable baggage to Kevin B's question from a thread, that as far as I recall, he had no input at all. You know where I stood on the whole question of the tree, and I have little sympathy for the "it's still a pagan god" argument. I was content not to express all my mind as folks could read pretty much my research in my AmericanXmas article. However, the truth of the matter is, we would not have the church calendar now in the worship of Presbyterian churches if the Christmas parties in Sunday School had not been allowed in the latter part of the 19th century. This is practically indisputable. So there are valid reasons to be concerned about allowing (now retaining) seemingly innocuous cultural expressions regarding the season. Does history have to repeat itself? Can we jettison superstition and will worship without having to jettison now seemingly merely cultural observances? Dunno; and we can disagree on the answer. But it is a legitimate question in light of the concern to ask how we handle the matter at work and with co workers, and one is not a Pharisee simply for having that concern; which was the point of the thread. That's my last word and my .


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 10, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Rich, I'm not going to address your post in detail, or go over old ground, except to say, it was a long way of admitting that you brought considerable baggage to Kevin B's question from a thread, that as far as I recall, he had no input at all. You know where I stood on the whole question of the tree, and I have little sympathy for the "it's still a pagan god" argument. I was content not to express all my mind as folks could read pretty much my research in my AmericanXmas article. However, the truth of the matter is, we would not have the church calendar now in the worship of Presbyterian churches if the Christmas parties in Sunday School had not been allowed in the latter part of the 19th century. This is practically indisputable. So there are valid reasons to be concerned about allowing (now retaining) seemingly innocuous cultural expressions regarding the season. Does history have to repeat itself? Can we jettison superstition and will worship without having to jettison now seemingly merely cultural observances? Dunno; and we can disagree on the answer. But it is a legitimate question in light of the concern to ask how we handle the matter at work and with co workers, and one is not a Pharisee simply for having that concern; which was the point of the thread. That's my last word and my .


Perhaps it is baggage. The issue, as I saw it developing, is one of "...is Christmas for me..." with movement toward "...now that it isn't for me, how do I go about making sure nobody celebrates it...."

My simple answer to the question is this: DON'T protest it. It's none of your business how other people live in the liberty of their consciences. If it's a problem for you then don't celebrate it.

I need to post more clearly also. I end up, in my arguments, seeming to attribute things to people that I should not. I need to acknowledge that you were reasonable in the other thread and were arguing for liberty in the matter. I sometimes make general observations in response to individuals that they interpret I am ascribing to them. I was not aiming my entire post at you. I was developing the idea of "living quiet lives" in matters where God has not given us authority to bind so I had to build the argument for people who didn't have the backdrop.

There is also the fact that I tend to muse on these things while I'm running. I had just returned from a 6 mile run where I was running this, and the previous thread, through my mind and a lot of things kind of came together for me so I was "firing for effect" on the subject. I'm sorry you got hit by some of the fragmentation. 

I do think, however, that this issue of liberty is a very important one and strong words need to be spoken to those who are dipping their toes into the pool of applying their convictions to others. They are dangerous waters and I want to speak plainly about them to all.

I consider you a scholar and a wise person so, although it seemed I was coming after you, I was not.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 10, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> I do think, however, that this issue of liberty is a very important one and strong words need to be spoken to those who are dipping their toes into the pool of applying their convictions to others. They are dangerous waters and I want to speak plainly about them to all.


It is a very important issue certainly, and there is no question there is a strain in the Anti holy day camp that is prone to this. I have known folks who tended to be simply destructive with the issue than constructive. There is a desire I believe for a easy answer to lop off any dissent; and that is usually going to end up being an oversimplification of the issues involved. 



SemperFideles said:


> I consider you a scholar and a wise person so, although it seemed I was coming after you, I was not.


Well, ok. Flattery will get you places. Seriously, on this issue I do think I have moderated my first formed views in light of an understanding of the multiple principles involved, as well as of history. I'm not particularly smart nor sure I'm absolutely right but as far as I can see the principles (RPW, liberty, offense, etc), I'm ok with where I am. I don't have any religious regard for Christmas time, but tolerate some family traditions, including the evergreen. 25 or so years ago I drew the line at not giving presents and gathering around the tree; not that that is the absolute line but that is what I decided I would not do. I simply stay in the kitchen and clean up or do something useful. I do think we have a problem. Culture changed the worship of the Presbyterian churches; so it is not a non issue. How we deal with it, well that may have a variety of opinions on the solutions. I think ignoring it as far as worship in the church is of first importance, and the reform of what should be done in the home will follow and take care of itself. In the history of my church, at least as it was formerly constituted everyone to different degrees determined what they could put up with and made those decisions themselves. We did not have the church police going into homes hunting for evergreens. With mostly newbie members to the whole issue now, it will be interesting to see if the same pattern occurs.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 10, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> It is a very important issue certainly, and there is no question there is a strain in the Anti holy day camp that is prone to this. I have known folks who tended to be simply destructive with the issue than constructive. There is a desire I believe for a easy answer to lop off any dissent; and that is usually going to end up being an oversimplification of the issues involved.


I agree we need not oversimplify but I am for simplicity in this principle: BE VERY CAREFUL about personal convictions. Calvin believed, rightly, that denial of liberty is a denial of the Gospel. I think that debates can get so complicated over something as simple as a tree that it overshadows the question of liberty of conscience. Those with convictions need to remember that the burden of proof does not lie with those guarding liberty but with those who would make a matter of seeming indifference binding on anyone but themselves.



> Well, ok. Flattery will get you places. Seriously, on this issue I do think I have moderated my first formed views in light of an understanding of the multiple principles involved, as well as of history. I'm not particularly smart nor sure I'm absolutely right but as far as I can see the principles (RPW, liberty, offense, etc), I'm ok with where I am. I don't have any religious regard for Christmas time, but tolerate some family traditions, including the evergreen. 25 or so years ago I drew the line at not giving presents and gathering around the tree; not that that is the absolute line but that is what I decided I would not do. I simply stay in the kitchen and clean up or do something useful. I do think we have a problem. Culture changed the worship of the Presbyterian churches; so it is not a non issue. How we deal with it, well that may have a variety of opinions on the solutions. I think ignoring it as far as worship in the church is of first importance, and the reform of what should be done in the home will follow and take care of itself. In the history of my church, at least as it was formerly constituted everyone to different degrees determined what they could put up with and made those decisions themselves. We did not have the church police going into homes hunting for evergreens. With mostly newbie members to the whole issue now, it will be interesting to see if the same pattern occurs.


I agree that worship can get polluted by custom but the issues need to be kept distinct or it leads to all sorts of problems. Perish the thought, however, that we become like the Southern Baptist Convention and turn an extra-Scriptural tradition into a test of orthodoxy (re: the recent ruling on consumption of alcohol).


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