# ProLife - Work with Roman Catholics?



## aaronsk (Sep 25, 2021)

Should Christians work with Roman Catholics in the fight against abortion. I know other threads have discussed how RC visibly seems to do more than Evangelicals and this isn’t to be discussed here.

*The question is “if your community has only RC prolife presence do you join them in some activities or remain distinct as much as possible?”*

The discussion should include thoughts on both the individual and if a church were to startup a prolife ministry. Also related would be if it would be acceptable to work with a secular organization vs RC. I realize at some point the lanes intersect in that you may refer someone to a Catholic hospital or secular women’s center for ultrasound but do you get out on the street, participate in meetings, etc with papists for the sake of the unborn? My inclination is no because they preach a false Gospel in word and practice.


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## Miss Marple (Sep 25, 2021)

Is there a third way? Start a Protestant pro life presence?

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## aaronsk (Sep 25, 2021)

Miss Marple said:


> Is there a third way? Start a Protestant pro life presence?


Yes! Should that Protestant prolife ministry partner with or participate in predominantly Catholic events? Or do any such joint activities with RC?


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## Miss Marple (Sep 25, 2021)

Well, perhaps best answered by an ordained man.

My opinion, having been employed and volunteered in pro life work for decades. . . sometimes. There must be discernment of course.

Two examples:

Our protestant confession pro life center had an annual banquet every year. Every year, one table was sponsored by a pro life Roman Catholic group. They were welcomed and appreciated.

We'd picket with offers of help outside of abortion clinics. There were Roman Catholics there too, praying the rosary. Their presence didn't stop us.

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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 25, 2021)

Whether to passively cooperate or even in some sense actively may be covered in George Gillespie's Miscellany Questions, _Concerning Associations and Confederacies with Idolaters, Infidels, Hereticks, or any other known Enemies of truth, and Godliness_, specifically cooperation within a family, town, etc. of mixed religions if I'm reading him correctly. A formal cooperation though might go into the forbidden territory.

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## aaronsk (Sep 25, 2021)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Whether to passively cooperate or even in some sense actively may be covered in George Gillespie's Miscellany Questions, _Concerning Associations and Confederacies with Idolaters, Infidels, Hereticks, or any other known Enemies of truth, and Godliness_, specifically cooperation within a family, town, etc. of mixed religions if I'm reading him correctly. A formal cooperation though might go into the forbidden territory.


Thanks I’ll give this a read.


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## Pergamum (Sep 25, 2021)

Catholics do some of the best Prolife work. 

Plus they are not plagued by the stupid Reformed penchant for "abolitionism" and condemning all others as "incrementalists" as some of the AHA folks do.

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## aaronsk (Sep 25, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Catholics do some of the best Prolife work.
> 
> Plus they are not plagued by the stupid Reformed penchant for "abolitionism" and condemning all others as "incrementalists" as some of the AHA folks do.


Hi Pergamum,
Thanks for the reply. This misses what I am questioning here as the efficacy of their work is already discussed in other threads.

Also I don’t think abolitionism is stupid nor relavent to the discussion either.

I am looking more for thoughts on how much interaction do we have with RC’s as they are unrepentant in their error, preaching a false gospel, etc. The abortion issue is argued from a basis of faith and they have a different faith (that imitates our own). Since the gospel is central to fighting abortion (and they offer a false one) is this an area we can fellowship? How much fellowship can we have and when is the line crossed?

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## Pergamum (Sep 25, 2021)

aaronsk said:


> Hi Pergamum,
> Thanks for the reply. This misses what I am questioning here as the efficacy of their work is already discussed in other threads.
> 
> Also I don’t think abolitionism is stupid nor relavent to the discussion either.
> ...


We share many things with Catholics including several early church creeds. I think in general the Catholics outdo us in Bioethics and Prolife issues. I see no problem with trying to save the unborn alongside Catholics.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 25, 2021)

I have no problem cooperating with RCs as _men_ in relation to opposing abortion, but not as _Romanists_. So, if it is just a general pro-life organisation that happens to have RC members, that is not a problem for me. If it is a Roman Catholic pro-life organisation, that is a different matter, as it would be joining with them in their idolatry.

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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

What is your conscience telling you?


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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 26, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> I see no problem with trying to save the unborn alongside Catholics.





Reformed Covenanter said:


> If it is a Roman Catholic pro-life organisation, that is a different matter, as it would be joining with them in their idolatry.


I would want to go one step further and say the gospel is key here. In a day and age of hate speech the most loving thing we can do is say there is an alternative to murder - embrace the gospel. Christ is the giver of life - both spiritual life, and physical life to the unborn. One of the problems with co-operating with Roman Catholics is that when the solution to the problem of abortion is proposed, Reformed Christians and Roman Catholics give conflicting answers. We should not bring gospel confusion to an already confused world. 


hLuke said:


> What is your conscience telling you?


Proclaim the evil of abortion *and *give the gospel. One of your countrymen recently wrote an excellent submission regarding the Sexual orientation and gender identity (SOGI) Conversion Practices proposed law in Tasmania. I was really pleased he clearly brought the gospel into this submission. See https://yinkahdinay.wordpress.com/2020/12/17/submission-for-tasmania-law-reform-institute/

I believe this is also needed in the abortion debate.

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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 26, 2021)

I meant to add to my previous comments that we need to deal with the narrative that 'privileged' people are oppressing the 'under privileged' by taking away their right to abortion. How to we deal with the privilege vs oppressed argument? Surely through the gospel. No one is privileged. We all stand before a holy God as desperate sinners who need a Saviour.

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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

Thanks for sending that article. Looks detailed
I'm eager to read it properly later.


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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> One of the problems with co-operating with Roman Catholics is that when the solution to the problem of abortion is proposed, Reformed Christians and Roman Catholics give conflicting answers. We should not bring gospel confusion to an already confused world.


Would you say it's in a way more productive for a reformed Christian to co-operate with an atheist influenced pro-life organisation?


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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

I believe the cause is what matters not the way by which it is delivered. It is better to fight against molechism with RC's (some of which are probably born again anyway) than to not do anything because of doctrinal disagreement. I also believe doctrine should be a deciding factor but to defend the powerless and innocent action is more important than words.


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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 26, 2021)

hLuke said:


> Would you say it's in a way more productive for a reformed Christian to co-operate with an atheist influenced pro-life organisation?





hLuke said:


> I believe the cause is what matters not the way by which it is delivered. It is better to fight against molechism with RC's (some of which are probably born again anyway) than to not do anything because of doctrinal disagreement. I also believe doctrine should be a deciding factor but to defend the powerless and innocent action is more important than words.


Hayden, I am not sure you grasped my point. We are not talking about a mere doctrinal difference. We are talking about the gospel itself. We are talking about how a man is made right with God. Let me put it as a Reformed Law-Gospel issue. The law says murder (abortion) is wrong. It is evil. But the other side of the equation is the gospel. Look at the link I provided above by the Tasmanian pastor. Look how clearly he brings the gospel into a moral issue. I believe that is the key point here.


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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

Thanks Stephan. I look forward to reading that article in more detail. My other post was referring to OP about participating in secular vs/or RC pro life organisations as Reformed believers. I'm with the opinion that law gospel promotes active participation in _any_ pro life movement, RC or not.


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## hLuke (Sep 26, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Hayden, I am not sure you grasped my point. We are not talking about a mere doctrinal difference. We are talking about the gospel itself. We are talking about how a man is made right with God. Let me put it as a Reformed Law-Gospel issue. The law says murder (abortion) is wrong. It is evil. But the other side of the equation is the gospel. Look at the link I provided above by the Tasmanian pastor. Look how clearly he brings the gospel into a moral issue. I believe that is the key point here.


I read the article and I see now the point you expressed.
The misunderstanding for me was where the gospel comes into play when dealing with abortion and related issues like LGBT conversion. For example a Roman Catholic prolife organisation may oppose abortion primarily because of tradition influenced by scripture, but not scripture itself, thus leading to little acknowledgement of the ultimate sin issue and right standing with God to which you refer.
Whereas to tie in with your view as it relates to the article, emphasising preaching of God's moral law and pointing to Jesus' finished work at Calvary is the best tool to combat abortion as it tears through ones conscience through the Spirit's conviction. Like you say. The best alternative to murder is the cure for murder... embracing the gospel

But I think it is worthwhile partnering with R.C's for the sake of fighting a righteous cause.. Even if there is confusion with the solution, ALL true Christians and i'd like to say most RC's agree that abortion is wrong and action to stop it is better than none at all.
We can proclaim the wrath of God's law, and the gospel to _both_ R'C's and those supporting abortion.


Stephen L Smith said:


> I was really pleased he clearly brought the gospel into this submission.


I'm also pleased. I love Brendenhof's stance. And his boldness brings me joy. 

_See: Gal 1.8; Rom 12.14-21_


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 26, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> I would want to go one step further and say the gospel is key here. In a day and age of hate speech the most loving thing we can do is say there is an alternative to murder - embrace the gospel. Christ is the giver of life - both spiritual life, and physical life to the unborn. One of the problems with co-operating with Roman Catholics is that when the solution to the problem of abortion is proposed, Reformed Christians and Roman Catholics give conflicting answers. We should not bring gospel confusion to an already confused world.



Abortion is a matter of law, not of grace. Someone does not need to be saved to know that abortion is wrong. Nor do they need to be a real believer to be persuaded out of abortion. Neither does the magistrate have to be converted in order to criminalise murdering babies. For these reasons, co-operating with unbelievers _as human beings_ in order to stop people from committing the crime of murder is perfectly legitimate as far as it goes.

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 26, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Catholics do some of the best Prolife work.
> 
> Plus they are not plagued by the stupid Reformed penchant for "abolitionism" and condemning all others as "incrementalists" as some of the AHA folks do.


So are you saying abolitionism is stupid? That is the best solution and also the only one that completely outlaws abortion. And if not abolished, then by definition it is incrementalism. Hence someone who advocates for it would be an incrementalist. The incremental measures as far as I have seen, don't stop abortion at all. They just cause the clinics to become more crafty and deceptive in the way they perform their work.


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## Irenaeus (Sep 26, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> So are you saying abolitionism is stupid? That is the best solution and also the only one that completely outlaws abortion. And if not abolished, then by definition it is incrementalism. Hence someone who advocates for it would be an incrementalist. The incremental measures as far as I have seen, don't stop abortion at all. They just cause the clinics to become more crafty and deceptive in the way they perform their work.


Abolitionism is certainly unbiblical. It reflects a flawed understanding of how God works in a sinful world by demanding immediate and total perfection here and now. Real progress on any issue takes time whether it's a societal issue or personal sanctification, but "immediatists" are too busy virtue-signaling to be bothered by reality. I'm still waiting for a truly consistent abolitionist to read Deut. 7:22-23 and denounce God as a heretic for his incrementalist approach to those abortion-loving Canaanites. 

(@Pergamum I better at least get a like from you for this, since my sense of validation on here is _totally _dependent on a high like-to-post ratio. )

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 26, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> Abolitionism is certainly unbiblical. It reflects a flawed understanding of how God works in a sinful world by demanding immediate and total perfection here and now. Real progress on any issue takes time whether it's a societal issue or personal sanctification, but "immediatists" are too busy virtue-signaling to be bothered by reality. I'm still waiting for a truly consistent abolitionist to read Deut. 7:22-23 and denounce God as a heretic for his incrementalist approach to those abortion-loving Canaanites.
> 
> (@Pergamum I better at least get a like from you for this, since my sense of validation on here is _totally _dependent on a high like-to-post ratio. )


Wow, now I have seen it all. I reject your response. Unbiblical would be the incremental approach. God hates the shedding of innocent blood. If you want to play politics with children's lives that's on you. Wanting abortion to end has nothing to do with virtue signaling. Your entire post is shameful. Good day sir.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 26, 2021)

Closing till after the Lord's Day here in the US. When reopened, return to discussing the OP. If someone wants to discuss Abolitionism, start a new thread. If doing so aim to edify.

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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 27, 2021)

Thread reopened.

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## Pergamum (Sep 27, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> Abolitionism is certainly unbiblical. It reflects a flawed understanding of how God works in a sinful world by demanding immediate and total perfection here and now. Real progress on any issue takes time whether it's a societal issue or personal sanctification, but "immediatists" are too busy virtue-signaling to be bothered by reality. I'm still waiting for a truly consistent abolitionist to read Deut. 7:22-23 and denounce God as a heretic for his incrementalist approach to those abortion-loving Canaanites.
> 
> (@Pergamum I better at least get a like from you for this, since my sense of validation on here is _totally _dependent on a high like-to-post ratio. )zzYou



You are my new favorite theologian and I will name my next child after you. I will make 10 new secret accounts on the PB so I can like every post from you 11 times.


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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 27, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Abortion is a matter of law, not of grace.


I realised after my last post on this that I could have added it may be legitimate to cooperate with Roman Catholics as human beings in the common cause of fighting abortion as an evil to the human race. However I cannot see how one cannot also see abortion as a gospel issue. Romans 3:21 - 4:8 convinces me that abortion is also a gospel issue. It is the practical problem of proclaiming a false gospel to a confused world that is my concern.

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## ZackF (Sep 27, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> I realised after my last post on this that I could have added it may be legitimate to cooperate with Roman Catholics as human beings in the common cause of fighting abortion as an evil to the human race. However I cannot see how one cannot also see abortion as a gospel issue. Romans 3:21 - 4:8 convinces me that abortion is also a gospel issue. It is the practical problem of proclaiming a false gospel to a confused world that is my concern.


Cannot Christians participate with Roman Catholics (or Muslims, homosexuals or whomever) to stop a serial killer on the prowl or stop gang violence? My point is gang violence and serial killing (of born people) are illegal and yet it doesn't seem to give most Reformed folk pause if stopping these atrocities involves co-belligerence with _____. What makes abortion different- that it is currently legal?


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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 27, 2021)

ZackF said:


> Cannot Christians participate with Roman Catholics (or Muslims, homosexuals or whomever) to stop a serial killer on the prowl or stop gang violence? My point is gang violence and serial killing (of born people) are illegal and yet it doesn't seem to give most Reformed folk pause if stopping these atrocities involves co-belligerence with _____. What makes abortion different- that it is currently legal?


Zack I have explained my point in a number of posts now so nothing more to add. I have never denied we can have some cooperation with others in addressing the evil of abortion. I have simply said bring the gospel into the discussion.


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## ZackF (Sep 27, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Zack I have explained my point in a number of posts now so nothing more to add. I have never denied we can have some cooperation with others in addressing the evil of abortion. I have simply said bring the gospel into the discussion.


You added it and I commented on it. If you don't wish to be engaged on the subject anymore then why keep posting? I find that bewildering of folks on numerous threads. 

My point remains that if abortion were illegal, co-belligerence would _still_ be necessary to combat it unless one just lives in a jurisdiction with only Reformed people. This is an argument I make for the sake of clarity. I think the because abortion has been legal in some places for so long it has become this issue in a vat and over abstracted. If the murder of middle-aged balding guys were suddenly legalized, I would not oppose RCs, Muslims or anyone coming to my aid. I suppose I would even welcome GC articles declaring it a "gospel issue" if it would help convince more to uphold God's law in this matter and confess our failure to do so.


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## aaronsk (Sep 27, 2021)

ZackF said:


> Cannot Christians participate with Roman Catholics (or Muslims, homosexuals or whomever) to stop a serial killer on the prowl or stop gang violence? My point is gang violence and serial killing (of born people) are illegal and yet it doesn't seem to give most Reformed folk pause if stopping these atrocities involves co-belligerence with _____. What makes abortion different- that it is currently legal?


RC's, Muslims, homosexuals or whomever all have their own sense of justice, law, life and (maybe) redemption. Murder is on the books and well defined in most places (so far as I am aware). Abortion is not well defined in society and so anything short of God's justice would be unsatisfactory and anything short of God's gospel would leave souls lost. In another sense I don't think it would be wise to associate with Babylonians when building a tower - we seek God's standards and delight in them. Only the Christian can offer a gospel of hope to the sinner but the RC's are much like wolves dressed as sheep. They proclaim to be the true church and offer a gospel but lack the true gospel. Do the ends (ending abortion) justify the means (allowing the issue and gospel to be confused by working with RC's)? Also, we shouldn't down play the fact that the RC's do actively try to convert those participating in the abortions to RC. How can we be unified with them as they preach a gospel of infused righteousness that cannot save? Would not this house fall? Their message is steeped in RC tradition in the way they plan activities, vigils, protests, marches, evangelism, prayer, legislation, etc.


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## ZackF (Sep 27, 2021)

aaronsk said:


> RC's, Muslims, homosexuals or whomever all have their own sense of justice, law, life and (maybe) redemption. Murder is on the books and well defined in most places (so far as I am aware). Abortion is not well defined in society and so anything short of God's justice would be unsatisfactory and anything short of God's gospel would leave souls lost. In another sense I don't think it would be wise to associate with Babylonians when building a tower - we seek God's standards and delight in them. Only the Christian can offer a gospel of hope to the sinner but the RC's are much like wolves dressed as sheep. They proclaim to be the true church and offer a gospel but lack the true gospel. Do the ends (ending abortion) justify the means (allowing the issue and gospel to be confused by working with RC's)? Also, we shouldn't down play the fact that the RC's do actively try to convert those participating in the abortions to RC. How can we be unified with them as they preach a gospel of infused righteousness that cannot save? Would not this house fall? Their message is steeped in RC tradition in the way they plan activities, vigils, protests, marches, evangelism, prayer, legislation, etc.


Abortion_ used _to be on the books and "well defined" and opposed. So was euthanasia. How are both of topics doing these days? That is not my point anyway. Enforcing previous abortion laws was done by those from all walks of life. How does opposing abortion necessitate praying the Rosary? It didn't 100 years ago and it doesn't now. Sorry, I can support a Catholic clinic that is facing legal attacks for not doing abortions without praying the Rosary or Eucharist Adoration. People seem to forget (or not know) that it was the St. Thomas More Society that contributed to John MacArthur's church's successful legal action regarding COVID restrictions. Was it wrong to ask them for help, or to compensate them?

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## aaronsk (Sep 27, 2021)

ZackF said:


> Abortion_ used _to be on the books and "well defined" and opposed. So was euthanasia. How are both of topics doing these days? That is not my point anyway. Enforcing previous abortion laws was done by those from all walks of life. How does opposing abortion necessitate praying the Rosary? It didn't 100 years ago and it doesn't now. Sorry, I can support a Catholic clinic that is facing legal attacks for not doing abortions without praying the Rosary or Eucharist Adoration. People seem to forget (or not know) that it was the St. Thomas More Society that contributed to John MacArthur's church's successful legal action regarding COVID restrictions. Was it wrong to ask them for help, or to compensate them?


You are absolutely right, they used to be well defined on the books. Some states still have them on the books and others have been rid of or altered them since Roe v. Wade and thus new legislation will need to be approved. I don't think it necessitates praying the rosary or such but may require you sit on your hands a bit or listen to strange talks/teaching. I would also support a Catholic clinic that does not do abortions because of my biblical convictions not because they are Catholic nor would I need to say a rosary, etc - much like yourself. I am not familiar with John MacArthur's dealings with the St. Thomas More Society and the agreement they may have struck so I cannot say much to it. I would note that MacArthur and the St. Thomas More Society likely are not hand-in-hand engaging people on the street with their differing messages of hope and source of authority (scripture & tradition). Do you standby and listen as a Catholic offers a false hope to the parents? I could see how the Catholics and Protestants could end up co-sponsering some action. But how close do we get in the day to day operations?


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## Irenaeus (Sep 27, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> You are my new favorite theologian and I will name my next child after you. I will make 10 new secret accounts on the PB so I can like every post from you 11 times.




When the Perg delivers, he delivers! 10/10, would definitely recommend to a friend.

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