# exclusive psalmody



## GillespieWestminster (Mar 21, 2021)

Happy Lord's Day!

Brothers, I ask for help in an issue that left me thoughtful, I believe that uninspired hymns cannot be sung in public worship of the LORD, however in my church sings uninspired-hymns and psalms, what should I do when these hymns are sung?
My beloved Church does not reach 20 members and not always all go, so stop singing can cause some scandal, I ask for a sincere help in our common Lord Jesus Christ.

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## Smeagol (Mar 21, 2021)

If of the EP conviction, I believe one is to hold the tongue, maintain reverence, and dwell on the truths of the Lord. Outside of this, there are loving and respectful ways to encourage a session to include the Psalms and avoid the majority error of Exclusive Hymnody. I am in a similar boat brother. The above reflects my current practice. Be joyful and thankful when a Psalm is selected, do not become cynical, pray, and express thankfulness to your minister/REs when a Psalm is chosen.

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## Romans922 (Mar 21, 2021)

Can you do something against your conscience? No, it would be sin to do so.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 21, 2021)

Just politely remain silent during the hymns. I realise that it can be frustrating, but it is better than causing disunity in your congregation. One of the few good things to have come out of the last year is that - for extended periods - I have been able to regularly attend a church in the evenings that only sings psalms. Since it is a confessional Baptist church that is too far from where I live, I could not join it. But it has been nice to be able to sing in church every week.

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## Edward (Mar 21, 2021)

GillespieWestminster said:


> hat should I do when these hymns are sung?


Wear a mask and breathe through your mouth. I attended an EP service a few months ago. I knew a couple of the tunes and sang along enthusiastically. I didn't know a couple of tunes, so I was silent behind the mask. No scandal created - at least that I ever heard of. 

Even my non-EP church will spring something novel on me from time to time (or something not really designed for congregational singing). I find masks to be very useful then. 

I see you are in Brazil. Do you all not mask there?


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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

I would prefer that my church be EP but it isn't. I go to church to worship God and to worship with the brethren. If you're not participating in your church's worship, then you aren't worshipping God with his children which we are commanded to do. In Revelation, there were churches which were corrupt but there were also some in those church that were not corrupt and God blessed them in their continuance of church attendance and participation of worship. Those services most likely were worse than a church today that isn't EP, but they were faithful to the call of worship and the leadership in those churches. 

I think the Psalms are beautiful and full of inspired truth....what more could you ask for? However, I'm not leaving my church because it's not EP. We don't sing songs that are heretical or speak untruths about God. They aren't inspired truths, but the pastor starts preaching uninspired truths once he's done reading the Scripture and begins to teach God's people. The pastor doesn't stand behind the pulpit and just read Scripture for the whole hour. He teaches in his own words what it means. So although I would prefer EP, I'm not about to say I can't participate in worshipping God because hymns come from man which is a teaching about God's word. 

Personally, I think it's an act of rebellion against God and your church to not participate in the worshipping of God when you gather together for worship. It would be better for you to find an EP church than to stay in that rebellion.


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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> Personally, I think it's an act of rebellion against God and your church to not participate in the worshipping of God when you gather together for worship. It would be better for you to find an EP church than to stay in that rebellion.


This is not right at all. If the OP thinks it’s corrupting the worship of God to introduce uninspired hymns into it, then it would actually be sin (i.e., rebellion) for him to violate his conscience by singing them anyway, as @Romans922 said above. I am not EP, but I just cannot square in my mind how someone who is EP refraining to sing uninspired hymns is somehow now in rebellion in doing so.

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## Smeagol (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> I would prefer that my church be EP but it isn't. I go to church to worship God and to worship with the brethren. If you're not participating in your church's worship, then you aren't worshipping God with his children which we are commanded to do. In Revelation, there were churches which were corrupt but there were also some in those church that were not corrupt and God blessed them in their continuance of church attendance and participation of worship. Those services most likely were worse than a church today that isn't EP, but they were faithful to the call of worship and the leadership in those churches.
> 
> I think the Psalms are beautiful and full of inspired truth....what more could you ask for? However, I'm not leaving my church because it's not EP. We don't sing songs that are heretical or speak untruths about God. They aren't inspired truths, but the pastor starts preaching uninspired truths once he's done reading the Scripture and begins to teach God's people. The pastor doesn't stand behind the pulpit and just read Scripture for the whole hour. He teaches in his own words what it means. So although I would prefer EP, I'm not about to say I can't participate in worshipping God because hymns come from man which is a teaching about God's word.
> 
> Personally, I think it's an act of rebellion against God and your church to not participate in the worshipping of God when you gather together for worship. It would be better for you to find an EP church than to stay in that rebellion.


That would seem to deny or erase the confession’s stance on a believers conscience. Sarah if your elders asked the congregants to light a candle during your called worship services as an act of worship, would you perform the act? Let’s assume all the congregations in your travel radius did the same.

Secondly, for many there are no EP congregations around. Example: Zero EP congregations in Mississippi.

Lastly, from the EP perspective and in light of the RPW, hymn singing would NOT be worship. Thus, abstaining is not rebellion toward God, but rather seeking to be faithful and rebelling against will-worship. For the record, I am not arguing for EP, but seeking to explain the EP perspective, which you did not represent correctly. We do not view it as refusing to worship, but rather as seeking to obey what God has commanded. According to the RPW, an element is not based on a Session’s opinion, but must come from a command of God, which is the rub for the whole EP/IP debate (are hymns commanded).

From the Confession’s perspective when man’s command conflicts with God’s, we are to rebel against man rather than the Lord as the Lord is the supreme Authority of the conscience.

P.S. If no one ever reverently and lovingly rebels, to a degree, how can we hope for reform in light of the truth that we should always be reforming?

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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 21, 2021)

The notion that we should just sing whatever our elders appoint is highly problematic from a confessional point of view. If the matter of our praise has not been instituted by God, then our Confession requires us to abstain from joining in such unauthorised worship:

God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in anything contrary to his Word, *or beside it, in matters of faith or worship*. So that to believe such doctrines, *or to obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience*; and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also. (Westminster Confession 20.2)

But *the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself*, and so limited to his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations *or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture*. (Westminster Confession 23.1)

*Q. *108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
*A. *The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and *keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word*; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him: *as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it*, and all monuments of idolatry. 

*Q. *109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
*A. *The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, *all devising, counselling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself* ... (Larger Catechism)

I have noticed repeatedly over the years that there seems to be an authoritarian streak among certain strands of American Presbyterianism that is simply not reconcilable with the Westminster Standards' teaching on both worship and liberty of conscience. A while back, one ministerial brother here said that he did not try to coerce exclusive psalmody people in his congregation to sing the hymns because for them to do so would involve them sinning against their consciences. This approach is the right one. Condemning peaceable EP people in non-EP churches as "rebels" simply for not singing material that they consider to be unauthorised is going too far. Would we adopt the same view if someone refused to sing a hymn because they believed it contained serious doctrinal error? The person may be misinformed but they hardly deserve to be labelled a rebel.

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## Edward (Mar 21, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> *A. *The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, *all devising, counselling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself*


As a matter of curiosity, what translation do you use, and how does it translate Ephesians 5:19?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 21, 2021)

Edward said:


> As a matter of curiosity, what translation do you use, and how does it translate Ephesians 5:19?



Come now, Edward. You know that I am an NIV-only extremist.

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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Grant said:


> That would seem to deny or erase the confession’s stance on a believers conscience. Sarah if your elders asked the congregants to light a candle during your called worship services as an act of worship, would you perform the act? Let’s assume all the congregations in your travel radius did the same.
> 
> Secondly, for many there are no EP congregations around. Example: Zero EP congregations in Mississippi.
> 
> ...


"Sarah if your elders asked the congregants to light a candle during your called worship services as an act of worship, would you perform the act? Let’s assume all the congregations in your travel radius did the same." This is a straw man's argument. No where in Scripture does it instruct us to engage in an activity that is something like candle lighting but we decided to light candles instead as a part of worship (i.e pretend God told us to light incense but we decided to light candles instead), but it does tell us to worship God through singing. EP people are saying you have to sing the Psalms or don't sing at all. That isn't what God has instructed us to do he instructs us to come together and worship him. 

In any case, this post isn't about whether or not EP is right or wrong so I'm not going to debate this subject. What I will say and continue to say is that when you go to a service and refuse to worship God, I want people to think about how that is a form of rebellion against him and the leadership of your church. No one is asking people to sing songs that are untruths or heretical in nature. Hymns are not inspired truths but neither is the preaching of God's word yet God commands us to do both in service to him. I don't expect to change anyone's mind about EP and actually that isn't my wish to do so. I would just be very caution about not participating in worship. Americans tend to be lone islands who are always right in their own mind about their views. I would be cautious about undermining your church leadership while you're under their authority and refusing to come before God with his people to worship in unison before him.


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## Smeagol (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> "Sarah if your elders asked the congregants to light a candle during your called worship services as an act of worship, would you perform the act? Let’s assume all the congregations in your travel radius did the same." This is a straw man's argument.


No, it was a hypothetical question and not an argument in and of itself. You can avoid the scenario (that is realistic) or substitute for incense lighting. But I will respect your wish not to debate, though I feel you largely missed the point. Several have already shown where your reasoning, EP aside, contradicts Westminster.


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## timfost (Mar 21, 2021)

GillespieWestminster said:


> Happy Lord's Day!
> 
> Brothers, I ask for help in an issue that left me thoughtful, I believe that uninspired hymns cannot be sung in public worship of the LORD, however in my church sings uninspired-hymns and psalms, what should I do when these hymns are sung?
> My beloved Church does not reach 20 members and not always all go, so stop singing can cause some scandal, I ask for a sincere help in our common Lord Jesus Christ.



I'm not at all EP, but we've had EP visitors who refrained from singing. I don't think anyone saw it as an act of rebellion. If you are of this conviction, I would simply speak about it with your session, asking how they think you should proceed with your convictions. I would hope that this conversation would foster understanding and they would see that you are being humble in your convictions and not trying to cause a stir.

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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> ...when you go to a service and refuse to worship God...


You are not understanding this issue, or EP, at all. It’s actually harmful to this thread.

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## Edward (Mar 21, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Come now, Edward. You know that I am an NIV-only extremist


The watered down pandering version, or the pure TNIV?

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## ChristianLibertarian (Mar 21, 2021)

GillespieWestminster said:


> Happy Lord's Day!
> 
> Brothers, I ask for help in an issue that left me thoughtful, I believe that uninspired hymns cannot be sung in public worship of the LORD, however in my church sings uninspired-hymns and psalms, what should I do when these hymns are sung?
> My beloved Church does not reach 20 members and not always all go, so stop singing can cause some scandal, I ask for a sincere help in our common Lord Jesus Christ.


My family is in the same position, small church and all. We refuse to sing hymns and so we remain silent when they are sung. I take things a step further by refusing to stand for them, in large measure because we don't stand for the singing of psalms. In any event, a conviction is a conviction.


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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> You are not understanding this issue, or EP, at all. It’s actually harmful to this thread.


I appreciate your opinion on the subject of your perceived enlightenment of my ignorance on this subject, and I'm sorry if you feel like I've placed you in an unsafe zone. I have to obey God's Scripture and make a "call out" to others by pointing them to Scripture on his command to worship him with psalms (psalms is better translated as "praise" from the Hebrew word תהלים), hymns, and spiritual songs. The majority of the reformed church disagrees with EP. If Scripture was black and white on this subject, the whole of the reformed church would be EP. Yet you would rather throw out a clear command from God to worship him through song by not singing what you perceive to be the wrong song and hold to EP which is an unsettled argument. In my opinion, you're choosing a man's argument over clear biblical instruction and that is harmful. Again, I'm not saying EP is wrong or right. I'm cautioning against rebelling against God's command and the leadership of your church. The WCF also has something to say about church leaders and discipline but that seems to fall by the wayside with EPers when they choose.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 21, 2021)

The opinion that the fifth membership vow of the OPC requires 100% obedience as to worship is a minority position, and an extreme one. Saying one should sing psalms against conscience requires implicit faith and denies liberty of conscience. It puts the person in the impossible position of no option but to sin because what we don't do in faith that it is right (rather believing it is actually wrong) is sin. See this previous thread. https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...-100-performancce-of-worship-practices.93778/

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## Smeagol (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> I appreciate your opinion on the subject of your perceived enlightenment of my ignorance on this subject, and I'm sorry if you feel like I've placed you in an unsafe zone. I have to obey God's Scripture and make a "call out" to others by pointing them to Scripture on his command to worship him with psalms (psalms is better translated as "praise" from the Hebrew word תהלים), hymns, and spiritual songs. The majority of the reformed church disagrees with EP. If Scripture was black and white on this subject, the whole of the reformed church would be EP. Yet you would rather throw out a clear command from God to worship him through song by not singing what you perceive to be the wrong song and hold to EP which is an unsettled argument. In my opinion, you're choosing a man's argument over clear biblical instruction and that is harmful. Again, I'm not saying EP is wrong or right. I'm cautioning against rebelling against God's command and the leadership of your church. The WCF also has something to say about church leaders and discipline but that seems to fall by the wayside with EPers when they choose.


Except Taylor does NOT hold to EP. Sarah I think you are talking past the points being made from the standards. It also sounds like you have some undertones of wanting to debate EP, which is not the focus of the OP. Again, this is not about EP vs. IP It is about how to respond when your conscience to God Almighty binds you to a command that is in conflict to a Session’s Liturgy given the RPW. You can fill in the blank with same question Psalms/Hymns, Responsive Readings, Christmas candle lighting, choirs, unison responsive prayers, collection of alms, and even infant baptism, and the Lord’s Supper.

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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> I appreciate your opinion on the subject of your perceived enlightenment of my ignorance on this subject, and I'm sorry if you feel like I've placed you in an unsafe zone.


Sister,

This escalation right here is exactly why I said a moment ago that you are harming this thread. Please reconsider your approach.

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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The opinion that the fifth membership vow of the OPC requires 100% obedience as to worship is a minority position, and an extreme one. Saying one should sing psalms against conscience requires implicit faith and denies liberty of conscience. It puts the person in the impossible position of no option but to sin because what we don't do in faith that it is right (rather believing it is actually wrong) is sin. See this previous thread. https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...-100-performancce-of-worship-practices.93778/


"I am being told the fifth vow of membership in the OPC requires 100 percent participation in all parts of the public worship service and thus, folks who in conscience can only sing the psalms, cannot take this vow or be OPC members, or at least in a congregation that is not EP.
"Do you promise to participate faithfully in this church’s worship and service, to submit in the Lord to its government, and to heed its discipline, even in case you should be found delinquent in doctrine or life?"
I assume such are taking "faithfully" to mean 100 percent participation in whatever is done in the public worship; however, they also say members do not have to be committed to Sabbatarianism because the OPC does not have confessional membership. So basically singing fanny crosby is a necessity if the session puts it in the service, but the Sabbatarianism in the standards is not and one can go home an watch TV, the game, etc.? Somehow I have to think that is simply not what that vow is supposed to mean. It diminishes liberty of conscience it tends toward an implicit faith in the session's imposing of what is done in worship." ~NaphtaliPress. 

Sabbatarianism is a part of worship in that when anyone comes to service he is observing the Sabbath in that moment in time IF he is actually participating in worship. Once people leave the service, they are outside of worshipping with the brethren in unison before God and what they do with the rest of the Sabbath does not immediately impact God's call to worship (I'm a Sabbatarian but a sinner in the end and thus I do not uphold the Sabbath perfectly the way God commands. But I repent of this sin and do ask God to work within me the obedience of keeping it holy). So comparing Sabbath keeping with EP singing vs hymnal singing is not comparable when placed within the subject of worshipping God in unison with the brethren unless you are breaking the Sabbath by not coming to church or not participating in worship. If a person refuses to worship God through song during the service, they are immediately impacting God's call to worship and the fifth vow of membership by undermining the leadership set over them. 

EPers keep referring to "I have to do what my conscience tells me to do" yet their conscience doesn't seem to be bothered by a lack of worshipping God through song and submitting to their leaders who are the caretakers of their souls. Again, Scripture is not crystal clear on the subject of EP, otherwise, the whole of the reformed church would be EP (at least on a leadership level) and would not be able to make a case for singing hymns along with Psalms. Yet people are willing to throw out God's very clear command to worship him through song and not sing hymns because they are convinced of an unclear doctrine of EP. Shouldn't the safe thing be to obey God's clear command of worshipping him in unison with the brethren while submitting to the leaders of your church than to possibly be wrong about EP (it's not crystal clear in Scripture) and not worship God because of some "ill conceived idea" (not saying EP wrong or right) about worship? People cannot use "liberty of conscience" to abstain from worshipping God when God has given this clear command because they are not just impacting themselves they are impacting Christ's body during church worship. In God's eyes, we are not in unison with our worshipping of him if some are singing and some are not which is very serious.


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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Sister,
> 
> This escalation right here is exactly why I said a moment ago that you are harming this thread. Please reconsider your approach.


Tylor, if you feel that there is an escalation in this thread it may be due to the fact that you feel defensive after calling me ignorant and you feel that I am not really accepting your opinion on that subject when in fact it's ok if you think I'm ignorant because I realize your opinion doesn't necessarily make me ignorant. If you feel like I'm reacting negatively towards you, please reconsider your approach as well since you started the negative personal approach.


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## Charles Johnson (Mar 21, 2021)

Sarah, we're both in the OPC in Wisconsin. I am EP, and I attend one OPC congregation in the morning and another in the evening. The elders at both congregations know that I am EP and respect that, and do not see it as a rebellion against their authority, against biblical doctrine, or against the standards of the OPC. Nothing in the standards of the OPC requires singing uninspired hymns, and the OPC historically has had and does have EP congregations and elders. I suspect that your elders would not characterize abstaining from uninspired hymns the way you do.

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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> EPers keep referring to "I have to do what my conscience tells me to do" yet their conscience doesn't seem to be bothered by a lack of worshipping God through song and submitting to their leaders who are the caretakers of their souls.


Sister,

I would ask that you take a step back and be analytical about this.

The OP believes that God has only prescribed the singing of Psalms in public worship, and that therefore anything else is a corruption of worship. To sing anything else, in other words, is a _severe_ violation of his conscience. He _literally_ cannot do it before God (Rom. 14:23). He attends a non-EP church. In so far as this church mixes Psalms with uninspired hymns, in his conscience the worship is impure. Instead of raising a ruckus and causing division (which would be _actual_ rebellion), he has come here asking how he may engage in worship given this dilemma. This is not an uncommon situation on this board. Daniel has already expressed his situation, and as far as I know Grant is in a similar situation. This is _not_ an instance of our brothers "rebelling" against authority, and to continue to insist that it is is wrong and frustrating.



OPC'n said:


> Tylor, if you feel that there is an escalation in this thread it may be due to the fact that you feel defensive after calling me ignorant and you feel that I am not really accepting your opinion on that subject when in fact it's ok if you think I'm ignorant because I realize your opinion doesn't necessarily make me ignorant. If you feel like I'm reacting negatively towards you, please reconsider your approach as well since you started the negative personal approach.


Sister,

I am going to challenge this. Where have I called you any name at all? I have reviewed all the posts I have made in this thread and I can find nothing in them of the character you have ascribed to them. I said you are not understanding the issue, but that is the only thing even remotely "negative" I have said. I believe I have been more than cordial.

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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Charles Johnson said:


> Sarah, we're both in the OPC in Wisconsin. I am EP, and I attend one OPC congregation in the morning and another in the evening. The elders at both congregations know that I am EP and respect that, and do not see it as a rebellion against their authority, against biblical doctrine, or against the standards of the OPC. Nothing in the standards of the OPC requires singing uninspired hymns, and the OPC historically has had and does have EP congregations and elders. I suspect that your elders would not characterize abstaining from uninspired hymns the way you do.


They wouldn't see EP as going against the standards of the OPC because it doesn't go against the OPC standards neither are those standards for EP. I'm not arguing against EP I'm arguing against not worshipping God in union with the brethren. You're right the OPC standards do not *require *the singing of hymns, but they do allow both Psalms and hymns. I'm unsure about the OPC being historically EP since it's a relatively new offshoot from the northern Presbyterian church in 1936. I'll have to research that fact. However, my pastor and elders would have a problem with me not participating in the worshipping of God. Here is a good summation of historical EP vs hymnody written by a OPCer on the OPC website which I find supportive in not abstaining from worshipping God through song. https://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=923


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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> my pastor and elders would have a problem with me not participating in the worshipping of God.


But the whole point being made is that for EP refraining from singing hymns is coming from the desire to purify worship. Your demand that they sing out of obedience to church authority begs this entire question.


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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Sister,
> 
> I would ask that you take a step back and be analytical about this.
> [...]
> ...


Taylor, you are the only one here who has been reacting condescendingly towards me by calling me ignorant (not understanding an issue is to be ignorant of an issue), being bossy and calling me harmful to a discussion. I'm not sure how you wanted me to react to that? But that has been your way with me in the past and I know that it's just your way of expressing your frustration. It's ok...it doesn't impact my life but let's let it go......


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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> Taylor, you are the only one here who has been reacting condescendingly towards me by calling me ignorant (not understanding an issue is to be ignorant of an issue)...


I never called you ignorant, nor have I been condescending. Please stop lying about me. I noted your misunderstanding of EP, which others have noticed both in the thread and privately to me.



OPC'n said:


> ...being bossy and calling me harmful to a discussion.


Again, I'm not sure where I've been "bossy." And I can assure you, with all due respect, that your misunderstanding of EP—which, again, I am virtually certain everyone else here has noticed—has indeed been harmful to this thread. I never said _you_ are harmful. But a brother has come here looking for help regarding a serious matter of conscience, and all you have done is practically accuse him of rebellion. Do you consider that edifying?



OPC'n said:


> But that has been your way with me in the past...


This is unnecessary. Sister, if I may, might I suggest that perhaps you take pushback a little too personally? I have been extra, extra careful to ensure all my words are charitable and in order, as well as non-confrontational, yet your reaction to my attempt at this discussion has been...odd.


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## Charles Johnson (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> They wouldn't see EP as going against the standards of the OPC because it doesn't go against the OPC standards neither are those standards for EP. I'm not arguing against EP I'm arguing against not worshipping God in union with the brethren. You're right the OPC standards do not *require *the singing of hymns, but they do allow both Psalms and hymns. I'm unsure about the OPC being historically EP since it's a relatively new offshoot from the northern Presbyterian church in 1936. I'll have to research that fact. However, my pastor and elders would have a problem with me not participating in the worshipping of God. Here is a good summation of historical EP vs hymnody written by a OPCer on the OPC website which I find supportive in not abstaining from worshipping God through song. https://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=923


In the 1940's the OPC appointed a study committee on the issue and the committee was split, with the majority writing in favor of hymns and Professor John Murray writing a minority report in support of exclusive psalmody. Neither is official OPC doctrine.


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## OPC'n (Mar 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I never called you ignorant, nor have I been condescending. Please stop lying about me. I noted your misunderstanding of EP, which others have noticed both in the thread and privately to me.
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure where I've been "bossy." And I can assure you, with all due respect, that your misunderstanding of EP—which, again, I am virtually certain everyone else here has noticed—has indeed been harmful to this thread. I never said _you_ are harmful. But a brother has come here looking for help regarding a serious matter of conscience, and all you have done is practically accuse him of rebellion. Do you consider that edifying?
> ...


Yet it is only you and I that are having trouble while the rest are just imparting their facts to me and me to them. You called me ignorant by stating I do not understand the issue. A better way to say would be to say, "I'm wondering if you understand EP?". If you don't understand an issue, it's because you're ignorant... they mean the same. You continue to call me ignorant by claiming "everyone else here has noticed". You're being bossy when you tell people what to do as in, "Please reconsider your approach", and you were being and continue to be condescending by calling my posts harmful in order to shut me down. You haven't been cordial. You and I haven't been having a good dialogue full of facts. You're pleased only to put me in my place. I've asked that we stop.....


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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> I've asked that we stop.....


Fair enough.


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## Tom Hart (Mar 22, 2021)

To return to the OP, I am in agreement with those who have advised remaining silent during the singing of uninspired praise.

Don't worry too much about what people think. The command is first to worship God. If they notice you not singing, be prepared to gently express your convictions. Some people will react positively, respecting your stand, and might even ask to hear more about exclusive psalmody. Others might think you a bit odd and will leave the matter alone. Still others will react more negatively and try to persuade you from your convictions. Whatever the case, we do not bow to the pleasure of men.

If you are a layman, do not attempt to reform your church. Pray sincerely for reformation according to the word of God. In the meantime, be humble and gentle, and maybe have one or two books available to recommend to anyone who thinks your views are novel or harmful.

Your conscience is in line with God's word. Follow it.


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## Stephen L Smith (Mar 22, 2021)

Tom Hart said:


> the singing of uninspired praise.


Tom I think this language is a little loaded. In a service of worship a EP church has uninspired prayers and uninspired sermons. 
Let me explain the key issue here. The esteemed Welsh pastor, the late Graham Harrison (a personal friend) made this comment in the preface to his hymnbook 'Christian Hymns' (1977 ed): "The progressive nature of biblical revelation imposes a necessary historical limitation upon the Psalmist". I agree with this. Obviously those of EP conviction differ. 


Tom Hart said:


> The command is first to worship God.


Amen


Tom Hart said:


> Some people will react positively, respecting your stand


I am one of them. I think it is right that those of EP conviction refrain from singing hymns if their conscience binds them on this. 


Tom Hart said:


> Pray sincerely for reformation according to the word of God.


Amen. For the record I am closer to my EP brethren than some modern forms of Reformed worship I see nowadays where reverence and awe in worship gives way to 'contemporary' styles of worship. In this regard Banner of Truths "Selected Practical Writings of Robert Traill" has an excellent sermon on reverence and awe in worship. It is worth a careful and prayerful read.


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## kodos (Mar 22, 2021)

Anytime you mandate words to be put into the mouths of God's people - you must be very careful about conscience. 
Uninspired sermons and prayers are not in the same league at all. As a matter of the _Regulative Principle_, they are regulated differently. 

But this is not an argument about EP but of conscience. In that, I can reject what the minister says in the preaching. I can withold my 'amen' from his prayer if I disagree.

But you put my conscience in a bind when you *force *me to sing, "the little Lord Jesus no crying he makes". That is compulsion. It is ungodly and sinful.

This is Worship 101, or it should be. Especially for Presbyterians.

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## Romans922 (Mar 22, 2021)

This is a key component of the reformation, namely liberty of conscience, and cannot be denied lest we fall into an antichrist/papist faith.

"2. God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in anything contrary to his Word, or beside it, in matters of faith or worship. So that to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and *the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also."*

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## timfost (Mar 22, 2021)

Just a couple things as they relate back to the OP. Sarah (@OPC'n ), I don't know what your church officers have said to you, but it sounds to me from reading your posts that you believe EP/non-EP is unclear in scripture, though you _lean _EP (please let me know if I've misunderstood you). If I were asked as an elder by someone in your shoes, I would encourage them to sing uninspired hymns unless/until their conscience is convinced it is sin. In this case, I would encourage them to remain silent so as to not violate their conscience while of course offering to think through the issue with them. However, in the OP, @GillespieWestminster seems to be in a different circumstance than you, both in a) personal conviction and b) denomination. I really think that the thread has gone off course. Many here know that I am decidedly non-EP. Yet, I think we should all be able to agree that we do not desire that one violates their conscience. Since the OP is concerned with a matter of _conscience, _I think it would be wise to leave disagreements over EP and focus on the matter at hand, not only because it is the subject of the OP, but because it is a matter that I think we can all agree on. Let's save the debate for another day and focus on edifying one another where we can and may.

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## OPC'n (Mar 22, 2021)

timfost said:


> Just a couple things as they relate back to the OP. Sarah (@OPC'n ), I don't know what your church officers have said to you, but it sounds to me from reading your posts that you believe EP/non-EP is unclear in scripture, though you _lean _EP (please let me know if I've misunderstood you). If I were asked as an elder by someone in your shoes, I would encourage them to sing uninspired hymns unless/until their conscience is convinced it is sin. In this case, I would encourage them to remain silent so as to not violate their conscience while of course offering to think through the issue with them. However, in the OP, @GillespieWestminster seems to be in a different circumstance than you, both in a) personal conviction and b) denomination. I really think that the thread has gone off course. Many here know that I am decidedly non-EP. Yet, I think we should all be able to agree that we do not desire that one violates their conscience. Since the OP is concerned with a matter of _conscience, _I think it would be wise to leave disagreements over EP and focus on the matter at hand, not only because it is the subject of the OP, but because it is a matter that I think we can all agree on. Let's save the debate for another day and focus on edifying one another where we can and may.


I have multiples times said that I am not debating if EP is right or wrong and have also said that I wasn't doing that because I have no interest in changing anyone's mind about EP. So to tell me that I "would be wise to leave the disagreements over EP and focus on the matter at hand" is to tell me to do something that I have been doing all along which indicates to me that you haven't read my posts very well. The topic of my posts addresses the concern of abstaining from worshipping God through song if that song is a hymn. I've been very clear on my posts concerning this. 

I realize that I am in the minority on my view here on PB (although I doubt I would be in the general reformed public), however, I disagree that one can claim conscience when one wants to disobey God especially on multiple levels. When God commands us to worship him corporately it's not a suggestion. Part of the call to worship is to sing. If God wasn't concerned about corporate worship, he wouldn't have issued a command for us to not forget the gathering of the brethren and we could stay home and do our own thing. But he is concerned about corporate worship. He wants us to worship him by gathering together and lifting our worship to him in unison. Corporate worship is about God it's not about individuals who have a statement to make on how reformed they are. 

If EP is correct and the church leaders are not following EP, then they will answer to God in some fashion (i.e. God teaching them EP discipling them etc). Our duty is to obey God's command to worship him through song and to obey God's command to submit to church leadership. You can't have a unified body of Christ that worships him when individuals are doing whatever they want during service. 

I feel like I have explained my position quite clearly on all sides and to continue is to just *repeat *myself multiple times to multiple people (because they aren't reading well what I'm writing) and to remind them that I'm not debating EP but touching on the subject of not obeying God's command to worship him/submit to church leadership. I leave you all to it.


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## Smeagol (Mar 22, 2021)

I agree with much of the sentiment here. @OPC'n I think you have brought distraction by providing an assessment based on your opinion of just how “clear” the EP position is from scripture. You can find people that find it “very clear” from both perspectives. Your sense of clarity on the matter has zero bearing on the OP who cleary stated they are EP. One’s conviction of just how clear EP is in scripture was not asked for in the OP and likely unintentionally distracts readers into an unnecessary temptation to debate a separate topic. For the record, I do associate and practice EP, but it is largely still new for me and less clear.

Your post read as being overly defensive and also miresprensentative of @Taylor. Further, you have not really engaged in the major issue your logic implies, which is a destruction or at least a silencing of Liberty of Conscience for the saint, which doctrine get its own chapter in Westminster. You have also been unwilling to answer questions about other form’s of worship that in reality get imposed on the saints from time to time by crying “straw man”. You have also not engaged with the portions of Westminster that have been cited in opposition to your conclusion. In fact, I do believe your comments are riddled with straw-man type statement and claims. I think out of respect for the OP, the off-topic post should be deleted (including my own if necessary).

Sister Sarah, maybe it is time to pause and ponder because several wise and gracious members (myself excluded) have pointed out similar concerns in your post.


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## Jeri Tanner (Mar 22, 2021)

@OPC'n Sarah, moderating here: there are several points being made in the discussion that I can tell from your responses you’re not quite getting. I always appreciate your no-compromise stances but in this case, your comments are unintentionally derailing the thread. Better in this case to take a step back even if you disagree! Thanks.


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## Romans922 (Mar 22, 2021)

Put it in the perspective, if one is EP and the Session is not EP. And if EP is what God commands only, then 1) the Session will answer for it and 2) so will anyone who participates in non-EP for they are sinning against God. If one were singing, in this hypothetical, man-made hymns only and not psalms only then whoever is doing that is sin no matter if one's authority were calling them to it or not. Same with a child or a boss. If a parent tells the child to lie, and the child lies, both the parents and the child who is a liar has sinned - they will be held to account. If your boss tells you to steal from people, and you do it, you are in sin. If the Church says to recant of your errors (which are not errors) and you recanted, you are in sin and will be held to account. You are basically saying to Luther to recant. But Luther cannot go against his conscience, he must stand there and do no other but his conscience. To go against conscience is against reason and sense and is therefore sin as your own confession teaches.

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## OPC'n (Mar 22, 2021)

Jeri Tanner said:


> @OPC'n Sarah, moderating here: there are several points being made in the discussion that I can tell from your responses you’re not quite getting. I always appreciate your no-compromise stances but in this case, your comments are unintentionally derailing the thread. Better in this case to take a step back even if you disagree! Thanks


My last statement indicated my intentions of leaving the conversation but it seems it's just one of many that people didn't read since they continue to engage me in dialogue on how "I'm just not getting it". If people want me to stop talking, they should stop engaging me. Thanks.

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## timfost (Mar 22, 2021)

OPC'n said:


> So to tell me that I "would be wise to leave the disagreements over EP and focus on the matter at hand" is to tell me to do something that I have been doing all along which indicates to me that you haven't read my posts very well.


Sarah, I apologize if it wasn't clear that this statement in particular was a general admonition for the thread, not directed to you in particular. I tried to speak about the whole group by saying "I think we should all be able to agree" prior to writing the portion that you cited, but I definitely could have been more clear.


OPC'n said:


> The topic of my posts addresses the concern of abstaining from worshipping God through song if that song is a hymn. I've been very clear on my posts concerning this.


I understand and hear your concern.



OPC'n said:


> I realize that I am in the minority on my view here on PB (although I doubt I would be in the general reformed public), however, I disagree that one can claim conscience when one wants to disobey God especially on multiple levels.


I think this is where there is a disconnect. I don't believe that this representation is true or charitable, if I'm correctly understanding you. Nobody here "wants to disobey God." Rather, everyone here is seeking to _obey_ Him. 



OPC'n said:


> When God commands us to worship him corporately it's not a suggestion. Part of the call to worship is to sing.


We all agree that the command to worship is not a suggestion. We all agree that part of our worship is to sing. Our EP brethren, to my knowledge, sing whenever Psalms are present in worship. They _desire _to sing even when they refrain. When I'm sick and I stay home from worship, I _desire _to be there, even though the circumstance prohibits me. In a very real way, an EP attending public worship with those who sing hymns _desire _to sing, though the circumstances of the worship service _with_ their conscience would prohibit them from singing. This is not using conscience as a license to sin, but rather seeking to obey God in a circumstance where they believe _part _of the worship is not honoring to God. 



OPC'n said:


> If God wasn't concerned about corporate worship, he wouldn't have issued a command for us to not forget the gathering of the brethren and we could stay home and do our own thing.


I fear this is a straw man argument. EP proponents put themselves in a worship service that includes singing of hymns, not because they think they can "do [their] own thing" but because they believe that public worship is important enough that they attend even when their consciences do not allow them to participate in every aspect of the worship service. 



OPC'n said:


> But he is concerned about corporate worship. He wants us to worship him by gathering together and lifting our worship to him in unison. Corporate worship is about God it's not about individuals who have a statement to make on how reformed they are.


A matter of conscience is not necessarily a statement about "how reformed" one is. I really hope you can be more charitable towards those you are seeking to represent.



OPC'n said:


> Our duty is to obey God's command to worship him through song and to obey God's command to submit to church leadership.


EP proponents worship publicly because they believe that public worship is commanded. If church leadership makes their singing/not singing a matter of obedience to church leadership, they bind the conscience and are not properly shepherding the flock. But even if those in church leadership commanded that members obey their mandate to sing against their conscience, the EP ought to say "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). 



OPC'n said:


> You can't have a unified body of Christ that worships him when individuals are doing whatever they want during service.
> 
> I feel like I have explained my position quite clearly on all sides and to continue is to just *repeat *myself multiple times to multiple people (because they aren't reading well what I'm writing) and to remind them that I'm not debating EP but touching on the subject of not obeying God's command to worship him/submit to church leadership. I leave you all to it.


I appreciate that you are not trying to debate EP in this thread. 

I hope that I have clarified things a little. Please let me know if I've misunderstood you.

Blessings,

Tim

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## brendanchatt (Mar 22, 2021)

GillespieWestminster said:


> Happy Lord's Day!
> 
> Brothers, I ask for help in an issue that left me thoughtful, I believe that uninspired hymns cannot be sung in public worship of the LORD, however in my church sings uninspired-hymns and psalms, what should I do when these hymns are sung?
> My beloved Church does not reach 20 members and not always all go, so stop singing can cause some scandal, I ask for a sincere help in our common Lord Jesus Christ.


Just don't sing. That's what I do. Same church size. You can tell your pastor you can't sing em. He'll probably understand

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