# Reformed Theology School in the East



## ReformedWretch (Jan 19, 2005)

Ok all, I am praying about and considering a major move within the next year or two.

The desire I have to learn is pushing me toward seminary. I have always longed to learn more about the bible and theology, but never has the passion over taken me like it has since becoming reformed.

My wife and I only have the one child we adopted and she graduates college this May! After that we can start making plans officially.

What school are there for me to at least look into on the East Coast? Any at all in the North East? I am really considering moving, getting a small appartment, a job that pay enough to pay the bills, and gettting a degree (or two  )

Any info will be appreciated as well as your prayers of course!


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## Ivan (Jan 19, 2005)

Westminster?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 19, 2005)

Reformed Theological Presbyterian Seminary in Pittsburgh:

http://www.rpts.edu/


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 19, 2005)

You got a couple choices up there.

Westminster in Philedelphia
Gordon Conwell in Mass
Ref Pres (the one Andrew just noted)

You also could do distance learning through 
RTS, Whitefeild, or Greenville. 
RTS has an MAR degree you can do thorugh distance learning. You just have to fly in for a couple weeks at the beginning and end of your degree. 

It all depends on what you want to accomplish Adam. You have a goal in mind with this?

[Edited on 20-1-2005 by puritansailor]


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 19, 2005)

A solid goal? Well, I hesitate to sound silly, especially at this point in my life and learning. But I have always dreamed of being a traveling preacher. Ever since I was a child I used to "play" preacher! Yes, my mom can tell you stories of how I would stand on the landing of our stair case and "preach" to my stuffed animals that I placed below me. I was around 4 years old!

I grew up in a Weslynian "Church of God" and we always had "revival" preachers that I loved. As an early teen (13-14) I was puzzled as to why all of our services couldn't be just like those revival services. No, they were not charismatic. They focused on sin and repentance, growing closer to the Lord and walking in His statutes. But after that week, the services went back to being dry, boring, ho-hum services where sin was rarely mentioned.

I love to write. It's one of my strongest passions. I know I need some "English" courses because my spelling and grammer suffer badly at times. It's laziness more than it is ignorance though.

I would love to be a traveling, writing, preacher of God's word. I have an absolute passion againt Dispensationalism that stole years away from me and still keeps my loved ones within it's grasp.

I dream of becoming a respected theologian asking the Lord to use me to spread His truth through preaching, teaching, and if He will, writing.

I know it's a big dream, but I am only 35. I figure that by the time I am 50 I could possibly be doing what I dream of after obtaining the degree(s) it would take to garner the respect I would need in order to do it.

Maybe I am crazy, but it's been on my mind for some time now.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

Adam, I know a pastor who didn't start until he was in his 50's. God can use you no matter how much time we have left. Andrew Gray was a Scottish Presbyterian minister in the 1600's. He died at age 23 I believe and only pastored for about 2 years but was used greatly in his ministry. Pursue you're desires. Talk to your pastor and elders about them too. They may be able to help you test out those gifts to help confirm that the calling is genuine. :twocents:


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## ARStager (Jan 20, 2005)

That's good advice for me too. I keep forgetting that if I'm not in seminary by this time tomorrow, all is not lost. Keeping my focus on my here-and-now vocation is one of my biggest areas of temptation and sin.


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## crhoades (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> That's good advice for me too. I keep forgetting that if I'm not in seminary by this time tomorrow, all is not lost. Keeping my focus on my here-and-now vocation is one of my biggest areas of temptation and sin.



Visiting in California has killed me this week. I got to visit WTS CA for part of the day yesterday and I can't tell you what spending a few hours in the library does to a person that has to work the next day! Let's all pray for each other that God will give us wisdom and direct our steps.


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## SmokingFlax (Jan 20, 2005)

That's a great ambition Adam. Definitely look into it's possibilities.

I can totally understand your passion to learn more (since becoming reformed). I'm also tossing around the idea of seminary but at this point I don't have any burning ambition to be a preacher or pastor. I don't know what that says about me (spiritually) but I just feel like I NEED to have a greater understanding. My hesitation at this time is just this: I don't know what I want to do with such a degree so it seems very self-centered at this point. 

I can also totally relate to feeling like I've wasted so many years submerged in dispensationalism, etc. It's all VERY humbling especially as I thought that I had a good grasp of Scripture before.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

Whew, you guys don't think I'm crazy!

I will pray for you all and asking you do the same for me. My pastor is on vacation, but I am going to run it by him when he returns!

Chris, I thought I knew the bible very well too, then I found out there was a wealth of knowledge no one ever told me existed. I have to fight actually being angry about it.


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## JonathanHunt (Jan 20, 2005)

Let those of us born into 'reformed' homes and churches count our blessings. I cannot imagine what it is like to change your theology after many years. Seismic.

And Adam, go for it, if the wise counsellors around you agree, and the Lord leads. You might be suprised about what the Lord wants you to do at the end of seminary/studies - but so long as you are willing to be used, and submit to Him, you will be used.

JH


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 20, 2005)

Adam,

GPTS in South Carolina is probably the best seminary on the East Coast. 

RPTS, I think, is the best one that is close to you currently. 

I think PRTS in Grand Rapids, Michigan may be the best seminary in the country. 

I would strongly discourage you from considering Gordon-Conwell. 

Westminster is not what it used to be, but I reckon one could glean some good from that education. ~

I would also encourage you to take time to think this decision through. As you rightly mentioned, it warrants prayer by yourself and those around you. A call to the ministry is a weighty thing. You should consider both the internal and the external call. If those are both discernable, and all other things in your life are equal, then by all means proceed. But although you can certainly go the long-distance education route, I would also add an encouragement to visit campuses personally and interact face-to-face with the folks there. There is much to be said for thinking of seminary education as more than just vocational training; it's a life dedicated to the ministry of God's Word, which means interacting with people. In the meantime, you might consider taking/auditing one Bible class at a local or long-distance campus just to get your feet wet. If you are indeed called to serve God in the ministry, He will make straight your paths and enable you to complete that which is begun.

May the Lord grant you wisdom and direct your steps. God bless!


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JonathanHunt_
> Let those of us born into 'reformed' homes and churches count our blessings. I cannot imagine what it is like to change your theology after many years. Seismic.
> 
> And Adam, go for it, if the wise counsellors around you agree, and the Lord leads. You might be suprised about what the Lord wants you to do at the end of seminary/studies - but so long as you are willing to be used, and submit to Him, you will be used.
> ...



Yes! Talk to your pastor, elders, wife, etc. If you feel God leading you....GO FOR IT!!!!


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## bond-servant (Jan 20, 2005)

Adam,

Pursue your dream! If it has been on your heart and won't go away, it's probably God. Never know how He'll use this to bless and grow your life and others too.:bigsmile:


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## daveb (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I think PRTS in Grand Rapids, Michigan may be the best seminary in the country.



Sorry, what does PRTS stand for? I'd be interested in checking it out with a recommendation like that.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

I am gonna guess Puritan Reformed Theology Seminary?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I am gonna guess Puritan Reformed Theology Seminary?



Correct! 

See http://www.hnrc.org/gr/Ministries/PRTS/prts.html


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I am gonna guess Puritan Reformed Theology Seminary?



You are correct Adam. 

They are good if you want to learn about Puritans, that's for sure. But they still have some kinks to work out. They only have two professors at present. Though they just finished a new building and plan to add more faculty.


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## JOwen (Jan 20, 2005)

PRTS is a wonderful school. It would however be a shock for many in the "moderate" Reformed camp. PRTS is anti TV, anti movies, and anti new ideas. Pro KJV, regulative principle of worship, and big on holiness, etc. They run a very tight conservative ship. My advise would be to go down and check it out first. Talk with the teachers and students. PRTS is not your typical seminary of ecletcic students from a mosaic of backgrounds. Most that attend are Free Reformed, Heritage Reformed, Free Church (Continuing), Presbyterian Reformed etc., from the very or ultra conservative denominations. I would think that mainstream Reformed students would find it a bit restrictive there. And I do not think you can just decide to "go". It is quite a process to get in. Not based on accedemics alone, but wether the aplicant would "fit" into PRTS.

Having said that, if you can do it ...DO IT! It is the best there is right now in the USA. 

Kind regards,

Jerrold


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

I would want to visit the entire "area" as I would need to know what the job market was like as well.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I would want to visit the entire "area" as I would need to know what the job market was like as well.



Grand Rapids is nice. Housing is affordable. Lots of reformed churches, and I mean lots! And lots of places to get books too! I visited there quite frequently the last few years because my friend lives there. I've also visited the seminary a few times and considered going there. Like I said, they still have some kinks to get worked out, primarily interacting more with the theological developments of the last hundred years or so. The Puritans are great, but the Church has had some struggles since then that we need to learn from as well. Not saying it's a bad school at all. They have a rather rigorous load. You just may have to supplement some stuff for yourself with extra reading where they don't cover it, as you would with any other seminary. And they also are not accredited yet, so if you wanted to do some higher education elsewhere that may be a consideration for you.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

Honestly, South Carolina appeals to me but that's mostly because I love Myrtle beach.


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## JOwen (Jan 20, 2005)

> Like I said, they still have some kinks to get worked out, primarily interacting more with the theological developments of the last hundred years or so. The Puritans are great, but the Church has had some struggles since then that we need to learn from as well. Not saying it's a bad school at all. They have a rather rigorous load. You just may have to supplement some stuff for yourself with extra reading where they don't cover it, as you would with any other seminary.




I am wondering what these kinks are? Which struggles are so important that RTS would give them time when PRTS would not? Seems to me that the great plight in today's sem's is a lack of the past. PRTS has said from the outset it wishes to train pastors, not academicians.

Kind regards,

Jerrold


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

The Michigan school sounds very intresting but their newness makes me a bit nervous. I would eventually want to go to the seminary that garnered the most "respect" amongst the bretheren.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I love to write. It's one of my strongest passions. I know I need some "English" courses because my spelling and grammer suffer badly at times. It's laziness more than it is ignorance though.
> 
> I would love to be a traveling, writing, preacher of God's word. I have an absolute passion againt Dispensationalism that stole years away from me and still keeps my loved ones within it's grasp.
> ...



Adam, I don't think I could better sum up my thoughts on my own future goals! Those three paragraphs are pretty close to my general thoughts at this point on what I want to do, although in my situation I would change the last one to "spread His word through writing, teaching, and if He will, preaching."

Personally, I'm thinking of going to either RTS-Jackson or one of the Westminster branches. What are your thoughts on moving somewhere further from where you currently are - or is that basically not something you're considering?

In any case, I'll pray for you as you endeavor on these decisions and the journey as a whole, and I'd appreciate your prayers as well over the next several years.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JOwen_
> 
> I am wondering what these kinks are? Which struggles are so important that RTS would give them time when PRTS would not? Seems to me that the great plight in today's sem's is a lack of the past. PRTS has said from the outset it wishes to train pastors, not academicians.



I'll be glad to talk about them via U2U if you wish to get more specific. The ultra conservative mentioned issues above are one thing to consider. There are some personal reasons which made me choose RTS over PRTS and others. It really depends on where you want the emphasis of your theological education to be. If you love the Puritans and want to really know them well, and don't mind the unaccredited degree, then PRTS is where you want to go. I guess that's all I'll say for now.


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## JOwen (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> The Michigan school sounds very interesting but their newness makes me a bit nervous. I would eventually want to go to the seminary that garnered the most "respect" amongst the brethren.




I would suggest that respect does not come through a piece of paper from a reputable School, but through the Spirit's anointing on your ministry. I know of no minister/pastor/teacher/theologian who garnishes more respect that Rev. Dr. Joel Beeke. His ministry, which is only just beginning, is truly global in the Reformed world. He's a minister who trains ministers. It does not get any better than that.
If at all possible you should try and stay home in your local Church to train for the ministry and do most of your work by distance ed under the tutelage of your Session/Presbytery. This is the best model In my humble opinion. I have an article on Seminary Ed and the Church here : http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/experientia/distanceeducation.htm

kind regards,
Jerrold


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JOwen_
> I would suggest that respect does not come through a piece of paper from a reputable School, but through the Spirit's anointing on your ministry. I know of no minister/pastor/teacher/theologian who garnishes more respect that Rev. Dr. Joel Beeke. His ministry, which is only just beginning, is truly global in the Reformed world. He's a minister who trains ministers. It does not get any better than that.



First of all, I agree whole-heartedly with the first sentence. Second, Beeke's recent book on spirituality demonstrates the anointing of the Spirit on his ministry!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



That's pretty cool Chris! You can take the West coast while I am on the East and then we can meet in the middle to divy up the rest!

I appreciate the encouragement and prayers and you can be certain I will do the same for you.

As for moving, I would be up to it if needed. I would be slightly nervous about being somewhere I've never been but if it was the Lords will...sure!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

Jerrold and Ivan;

I am certain a "peice of paper" is not "needed" but for years I have disregarded a formal education as being important at all. I now have a passion to become as educated as I can be in the word of God, and I trust less those that are not.

I am sorry if this is wrong of me, maybe I am more paranoid that I should be but when you have been in error as long as I was you tend to be over protective I guess.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

Adam, I think the "peice of paper" they were refering to is accreditation. PRTS and Greenville are not accredited schools. They are also 4 year MDiv programs rather than the normal 3 year plans at the accreditted schools. If you want to pursue PhD work then you probably want the accreditted school, unless of course you are going for an unaccredited PhD. It just depends on what you want to do with the degree that's all.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 20, 2005)

Hmmmmm

Patrick, do you believe it really matters in regard to the respect you can attain within the body? I mean if one wishes to become trusted and respected I know his teaching is most important! But lets say one has a accreditted PhD and one does not but both teach soundly, do you believe one would gain more respect or be trusted/called upon more than the other?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Hmmmmm
> 
> Patrick, do you believe it really matters in regard to the respect you can attain within the body? I mean if one wishes to become trusted and respected I know his teaching is most important! But lets say one has a accreditted PhD and one does not but both teach soundly, do you believe one would gain more respect or be trusted/called upon more than the other?



No, I don't think so, at least not with most people. In fact, at least in the OPC, you don't even need a degree to get licensed, so long as you display to the presbytery sufficient detailed knowledge of the required subjects (i.e. Greek, Hebrew, Theology, Apologetics, etc.) and display the required gifts. Obviously they highly encourage seminary but it's possible to get through the process without it. Certainly their are gifted men, perfectly good pastors who haven't been to seminary (i.e. Spurgeon) let alone have unaccredited degrees. So if pastoring is all you wish to do, then don't worry so much about the type of degree, just find a seminary that emphasizes the things you feel are important. 

But if you wanted to teach in a seminary, the standard is higher. They _usually_ require a doctorate in the particular area you want to teach. And in order to get a doctorate you usually need to go through an accredited program somewhere. 

Like I said, it all depends on what you want to do.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 21, 2005)

Westminster Theological Seminary in Philly, hands down. I used to dream of getting a Ph.D. from there. The only reason I don't anymore is because I'm going a different direction with my life than I was before. You would get a tremendous education from there. I mean, I don't understand what kind of standards people are holding to seminaries that would cause them to say WTS isn't all that. I mean, it's Reformed, the staff is great, and the school is committed to academic excellence. A school doesn't have to have Van Til and Murray to be excellent.

WTS = 

[Edited on 21-1-2005 by luvroftheWord]


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 21, 2005)

Well that would be great Craig as it is about 90 minutes from me!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 21, 2005)

One objection to WTS is their teaching of the framework hypothesis of creation.

Another is the support found within the seminary for NT Wright.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Another is the support found within the seminary for NT Wright.


and Norman Shepard.....


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## Ivan (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> Adam, I think the "peice of paper" they were refering to is accreditation.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> One objection to WTS is their teaching of the framework hypothesis of creation.
> 
> Another is the support found within the seminary for NT Wright.



My , the whole debate over the Framework Hypothesis is blown way out of proportion by those who oppose it. I have more of a problem with the people who want to anathemize advocates of the FH than I do with the advocates themselves.

Also, who do you know of at WTS that advocates the NPP?


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



The seminary doesn't condemn Shepard because when they were examining him, Gaffin was convinced that Shepard was essentially teaching that works are the evidence of saving faith, though he was using different language to do so. I've already had this discussion with John Frame because I was concerned about it as well, and Frame was present when Shepard's views were being examined.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> Also, who do you know of at WTS that advocates the NPP?



I didn't say "advocates"; I said supports. I have in mind Doug Green.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 21, 2005)

What does Prof Green say about the NPP?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> What does Prof Green say about the NPP?



Here is a paper that he wrote on the subject. As I meant to suggest, his is not a complete endorsement of Wright's views but it is way too charitable, In my humble opinion. 

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Green_Westminster_Seminary_Perspective.pdf


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



You probably won't like hearing this, but I believe the Framework Hypothesis is blatant heresy and a cancer in the Reformed Church. The following articles address it well:

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_83.html

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/ch/ch3_06.htm

http://capo.org/wp/declartn.htm


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 21, 2005)

Thanks for the links. Can you briefly in a couple of paragraphs explain why you think the FH is heresy? What cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith does it overthrow? How does it overthrow the gospel?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> Thanks for the links. Can you briefly in a couple of paragraphs explain why you think the FH is heresy? What cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith does it overthrow? How does it overthrow the gospel?



Start another thread guys. Thanks!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> ...



Understood. Response posted in the Natural Revelation and God's Creation Forum.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 22, 2005)

Since this is an "east-coast" thread: here's a plug for Greenville. 

Greenville's goal is the production of preachers for the church. They have advanced programs (ThM, ThD), but those are secondary, and are really also designed for the "pastor-scholar" rather than for scholars with other callings. The school produces MDiv credentialed men who are well educated in the basic skills of a minister. One may not necessarily be called, but he will be prepared. 


> Aside:
> PRTS and GPTS are quite friendly; they have obvious differences, but a common ethos. And lately, because of the laws of the state of Michigan, PRTS was not allowed to confer its own legitimate MDiv degrees, and to entered into an arrangement with GPTS whereby PRTS students would receive honest, legal degrees. Typical state bureaucratic overregulation...


Greenville is a Presbyterian Seminary. The school has usually a fair representation of Dutch Reformed students, and even a Reformed Baptist on occasion, but it has a _distinctively_ Presbyterian identity. The Westminster Standards are an integrated element of the curriculum. Presbyterian Polity and Ecclesiology are taught as part of the Systematic Theology course work. Why? Well, there are plenty of other seminaries out there that have a broad appeal. Why not a conservative, *confessionally strict,* _old school Presbyterian_ seminary? With a little van Til apologetics thrown in just to freshen things up?

If these distinctives appeal to you, if you like this part of the country, check it out. Spring Theology Conference is a perfect time to vist (week of Mar. 14) with special events for prospective students.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 22, 2005)

Sounds good Bruce! Maybe I will put in for vacation during that time.


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