# Lifting Up Your Hands During Worship



## blhowes

A little over a year ago, I asked this question here:
Have you ever been to a church where some of the people are lifting up their hands during worship and praising God? Not in the way you might picture charasmatics doing it, but more privately, hardly noticeable.​I got a couple helpful answers, I was wondering if anybody else has any thoughts about it.

From time-to-time, I'll notice during worship folks that have their hands raised, usually while music is being sung. Its not disruptive at all, its done very discretely. For them, it looks like the natural thing to do. For me, it would seem extremely unnatural to raise my hands (or to do anything of the sort with my hands) during worship. 

As Felix Unger once said, its not good to assume, but I'm going to assume that most here don't raise their hands during worship. If you do, what is the motivation? If you use to be charasmatic or something and did at one time, what was your motivation then?


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## he beholds

Growing up, I didn't attend church, but did go to youth group praise services and it was customary to raise our hands. I don't know why we did it, so I don't do it now, but I did like it. I think if I found that it was biblical, I would definitely lift my hands up. (But I would look strange in this RP world.)


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## Contra_Mundum

I'd say sure, everyone go for it.

No, I meant EVERYONE, the same way, right arm, left arm, or both arms, in unison, up, down, no guys don't stop at the shoulders (ok, that's little joke).

If its to be done in corporate worship, the the whole ARMY needs to act like a disciplined unit. I'll make exceptions for those who can't (literally cannot) raise their arms, like I won't ask a wheelchair-bound person to stand. But this is the army of the Lord, the host of the Most High. Not an undisciplined rabble. If you're going to adopt a certain posture, then let the whole body adopt it together.

1Tim. 2:8 "I will therefore that men pray every where, *lifting up holy hands*, without wrath and doubting."


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## blhowes

he beholds said:


> Growing up, I didn't attend church, but did go to youth group praise services and it was customary to raise our hands. I don't know why we did it, so I don't do it now, but I did like it. I think if I found that it was biblical, I would definitely lift my hands up. (But I would look strange in this RP world.)


Well, if its biblical, I'm sure the RP world would want to follow your example.


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## Notthemama1984

Contra_Mundum said:


> I'd say sure, everyone go for it.
> 
> No, I meant EVERYONE, the same way, right arm, left arm, or both arms, in unison, up, down, no guys don't stop at the shoulders (ok, that's little joke).
> 
> If its to be done in corporate worship, the the whole ARMY needs to act like a disciplined unit. I'll make exceptions for those who can't (literally cannot) raise their arms, like I won't ask a wheelchair-bound person to stand. But this is the army of the Lord, the host of the Most High. Not an undisciplined rabble. If you're going to adopt a certain posture, then let the whole body adopt it together.
> 
> 1Tim. 2:8 "I will therefore that men pray every where, *lifting up holy hands*, without wrath and doubting."




The problem I see is that not everyone does everything like a disciplined unit in church already, but this does not prevent us from continuing in our God centered ways of worship.

A perfect example is that there are several EP members here on PB who go to non-EP churches. When the church sings hymns, they stand there quietly and not sing. This is not acting like a unit, so should the church "ditch" their hymns on the basis of promoting unity (not on grounds as to who is right or wrong)?

So I cannot see where one could prohibit the raising of hands for the entire church because some do not want to do it.


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## Contra_Mundum

The fact that we have problems doesn't mean we should get rid of the RPW, right? I'm not so much advocating prohibition as I am unity. Joe wants a baptism this week. If he doesn't get to see one, or be baptized, has he been _prohibited_? Why doesn't Jane just get up *whenever *she feels like it and start singing a Psalm? Doesn't 1 Corinthians say something about this?

The conscience bound people might be right, or they might be wrong. Maybe we should ditch the hymns for this reason alone. Or maybe, the others should go to the EP church, or just comply. It's not a good testimony to _someone_ visiting at the same time, observing that patent lack of unity.

I think a lot of people who "raise their hands" know that they are not "going along with the crowd" but their issue isn't "this is biblical, therefore I'm doing it." But rather, "This is something that makes me feel good, and even better because I'm being _spiritual_ when I'm doing it." Well, bosh on that. Unity is also a spiritual good, as much or more so than raising hands.


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## Scott1

> Contra_Mundum
> "da wabbit"
> 
> But this is the army of the Lord, the host of the Most High. Not an undisciplined rabble. If you're going to adopt a certain posture, then let the whole body adopt it together.





> 1 Timothy 2:8
> 
> *I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.*



I have always understood this passage to mean it is acceptable to hold up hands during worship and a few people do occassionally in our church.

As I grow in understanding of the regulative principle of worship and how public worship is God centered I see how random styles might be distracting. One part of me says, that's okay because they are praising God in their own way. Another side, now, says it may distract worship from God and toward the person.

I now know that if Scripture teaches us anything, it teaches us that God alone is holy and worthy of worship and we are fallen, self-centered, and self-seeking creatures. And that self-seeking, especially in worship, offends God.

A common idea in broad evangelicalism, particularly with charismatic/pentecostal influence is that worship is "personal." That now strikes me as a wrong understanding. God (not me) is the center of my worship.

Having said all that, I'm still at the point where I would like to be free to lift my hands in praise during public worship.


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## Notthemama1984

Contra_Mundum said:


> The fact that we have problems doesn't mean we should get rid of the RPW, right? I'm not so much advocating prohibition as I am unity. Joe wants a baptism this week. If he doesn't get to see one, or be baptized, has he been _prohibited_? Why doesn't Jane just get up *whenever *she feels like it and start singing a Psalm? Doesn't 1 Corinthians say something about this?
> 
> The conscience bound people might be right, or they might be wrong. Maybe we should ditch the hymns for this reason alone. Or maybe, the others should go to the EP church, or just comply. It's not a good testimony to _someone_ visiting at the same time, observing that patent lack of unity.
> 
> I think a lot of people who "raise their hands" know that they are not "going along with the crowd" but their issue isn't "this is biblical, therefore I'm doing it." But rather, "This is something that makes me feel good, and even better because I'm being _spiritual_ when I'm doing it." Well, bosh on that. Unity is also a spiritual good, as much or more so than raising hands.



Oh I totally agree that we cannot have chaos in the church. I just felt that your blanket statement (or at least how I interpreted it) was a bit off.

One of the things I love about reformed circles is the refusal to dumb down worship and just go with the crowd. I personally feel that this "all or nothing" approach is a bit on the democratic/following the crowd side of things. If we deem the raising of hands as Biblical (which should be the only standard we use), then there should be no prohibition of it especially on the grounds "because Susie Joe doesn't raise her hands." 

Just my 
-----Added 11/25/2008 at 02:13:35 EST-----


Scott1 said:


> Contra_Mundum
> "da wabbit"
> 
> But this is the army of the Lord, the host of the Most High. Not an undisciplined rabble. If you're going to adopt a certain posture, then let the whole body adopt it together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Timothy 2:8
> 
> *I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have always understood this passage to mean it is acceptable to hold up hands during worship and a few people do occassionally in our church.
> 
> As I grow in understanding of the regulative principle of worship and how public worship is God centered I see how random styles might be distracting. One part of me says, that's okay because they are praising God in their own way. Another side, now, says it may distract worship from God and toward the person.
> 
> I now know that if Scripture teaches us anything, it teaches us that God alone is holy and worthy of worship and we are fallen, self-centered, and self-seeking creatures. And that self-seeking, especially in worship, offends God.
> 
> A common idea in broad evangelicalism, particularly with charismatic/pentecostal influence is that worship is "personal." That now strikes me as a wrong understanding. God (not me) is the center of my worship.
> 
> Having said all that, I'm still at the point where I would like to be free to lift my hands in praise during public worship.
Click to expand...


Although worship is God centered, it still has a human aspect to it. Worship is a human response to God for what He has done, is doing, or will do. This "personal" aspect of worship does not detract from God, in my opinion it glorifies God more and more. 

Therefore if a child of God reaches up to Heaven in a same way that a little child runs up to his daddy to give him a hug, how can this be wrong? 

Revelation 3:20 shows us that Christ wants a relationship with His children. It also shows that the relationship is two ways. We are not told to be impersonal to God and only have head knowledge about Him. I just cannot see how someone can have impersonal worship to God.

This should not be mistaken as an endorsement for mainline worship services. That is far from it.


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## panta dokimazete

in unity, decently and in order does not imply physically regimented like an army drill...


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## Notthemama1984

panta dokimazete said:


> in unity, decently and in order does not imply physically regimented like an army drill...




Agreed.


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## Prufrock

Do we ever see in scripture people raising hands _while singing?_ Isn't it only in prayer? Just my 

Maybe sometimes we misunderstand _why_ hands were being raised.


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## Scott1

Prufrock said:


> Do we ever see in scripture people raising hands _while singing?_ Isn't it only in prayer? Just my



I wonder if "singing praises" does often constitute a form of prayer (particularly singing psalms).


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## LawrenceU

Look at how many of the Psalms are actually prayer. Prayer and singing are inter-related.


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## Notthemama1984

Calvin on I Timothy 2:8

Lifting up pure hands As if he had said, “Provided that it be accompanied by a good conscience, there will be nothing to prevent all the nations from calling upon God everywhere. But he has employed the sign instead of the reality, for “pure hands” are the expressions of a pure heart; just as, on the contrary, Isaiah rebukes the Jews for lifting up “bloody hands,” when he attacks their cruelty. (Isaiah 1:15.) Besides, this attitude has been generally used in worship during all ages; for it is a feeling which nature has implanted in us, when we ask God, to look upwards, and has always been so strong, that even idolaters themselves, although in other respects they make a god of images of wood and stone, still retained the custom of lifting up their hands to heaven. Let us therefore learn that the attitude is in accordance with true godliness, provided that it be attended by the corresponding truth which is represented by it, namely, that, having been informed that we ought to seek God in heaven, first, we should form no conception of Him that is earthly or carnal; and, secondly, that we should lay aside carnal affections, so that nothing may prevent our hearts from rising above the world. But idolaters and hypocrites, when they lift up their hands in prayer, are apes; for while they profess, by the outward symbol, that their minds are raised upwards, the former are fixed on wood and stone, as if God were shut up in them, and the latter, wrapped up either in useless anxieties, or in wicked thoughts, cleave to the earth; and therefore, by a gesture of an opposite meaning,


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## BobVigneault

Paul tells Timothy that it's in prayer, and it's just the MEN.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

At my church the entire congregation is invited to raise their hands for the concluding praise which is always the Doxology. We are then invited to stretch forth our hands to receive the benediction. Almost everyone joins in.
During the other hymns/psalms there may be people who on occasion raise their hands as part of their worship to the Lord.


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## CovenantalBaptist

Contra_Mundum said:


> I'd say sure, everyone go for it.
> 
> No, I meant EVERYONE, the same way, right arm, left arm, or both arms, in unison, up, down, no guys don't stop at the shoulders (ok, that's little joke).
> 
> If its to be done in corporate worship, the the whole ARMY needs to act like a disciplined unit. I'll make exceptions for those who can't (literally cannot) raise their arms, like I won't ask a wheelchair-bound person to stand. But this is the army of the Lord, the host of the Most High. Not an undisciplined rabble. If you're going to adopt a certain posture, then let the whole body adopt it together.
> 
> "I will therefore that men pray every where, *lifting up holy hands*, without wrath and doubting."



Dr. Pipa teaches this approach in his Reformed Worship class at GPTS. His lectures are worth obtaining in general as I think he has developed a good curriculum that is sorely missing in many Reformed seminaries. One small aspect that he develops is an argument that Reformed Worship should be thoroughly engaging and thus expressed bodily as well. But, as Bruce expressed, it is a corporate act, it thus should be expressed corporately. The enagement of our bodies is proposed through spiritual postures in prayer particularly. You can find more information on it in Samuel Miller's material here in his excellent book "Thoughts on Public Prayer".


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## blhowes

Let's bring it out of the corporate setting to the private:
Psa 143:5,6 I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands. I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah. 

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.​
Am I correct that there isn't any reason to think the raising of hands here by David shouldn't be taken literally? It sounds like he was doing it in private, and raised his hands as a way of expressing to God David's desire for God, or his dependence upon God. Is that the main reason why he raised his hands towards God?


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## FenderPriest

maybe I'm a loner here, but I lift my hands up during worship - "charismatic style" if that's what we're calling it around here. You'll see in Psalm 134 a call to worship which includes the lifting of hands. Moreover, you see the passionate worship of the throne room of heaven in Revelation 4 and 5 to have angels laying prostrate before the Lord, being loud, and all the while it's all focused on God. I personally lift my hands as an expression of passion and love for the Lord. While worshipping God with his people, sometimes my whole body must respond to God. I don't see a problem with it from Scripture. Moreover, of course people can abuse such things, or raise their hands for the wrong reasons; just the same as people can refuse to raise their hands for the wrong reasons.


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## LawrenceU

I'm in the same boat with Jacob. I have been for most of my life: in an anti-charismatic church growing up, in a charismatic non-reformed church, in a charismatic Calvinist church, and in Reformed churches. It is beyond me why this is an issue. Anything can be abused. Even resistance to emotional response.


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## blhowes

FenderPriest said:


> I don't see a problem with it from Scripture. Moreover, of course people can abuse such things, or raise their hands for the wrong reasons; just the same as people can refuse to raise their hands for the wrong reasons.





LawrenceU said:


> It is beyond me why this is an issue. Anything can be abused. Even resistance to emotional response.



This is the focus I'd prefer to take in the discussion. Filter out the abuses, and focus on Biblical reasons for raising of hands. Assume its done decently and in order, with hearts prepared and ready to worship God. Assume its done for the right reasons (which is what I'm primarily inquiring about)


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## Contra_Mundum

I'm certainly not going after people who are being passionate, "feeling it", whatever.

Honestly, if JohnQPublic comes into our worship, and raises his hands at this time or that, I'm not going to say anything negative to him.

But just as honestly, I expect the majority of JohnQPublics who do that will never visit us again, "Because they are frozen-chosen, they don't emote the way I do, therefore their spirituality is defective."

*I'm not saying any of you would think that*, but I'm pretty confident that the average charismatic type (the worshipers typically with their hands up, waving them, etc) would think that about the average Reformed pew-sitter.


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## blhowes

FenderPriest said:


> You'll see in Psalm 134 a call to worship which includes the lifting of hands.


Psa 134:1 <A Song of degrees.> Behold, bless ye the LORD, all ye servants of the LORD, which by night stand in the house of the LORD. 
Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD. 
Psa 134:3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion. 

Is this speaking of everybody? The reason I ask is because verse 1 is referring to servants who stand in the house of the Lord at night time. Is this when everybody came to worship back then, or is it referring to priests who did service in the temple at night time?

(not to say it couldn't be extended to all, just wondering who the primary interpretation is about)


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## Grymir

Boy, I hate to be the fuddy-duddy here, but the 'raising up hands' usually happens in modern music settings and/or contemorary worship. I wouldn't do it. It's hard to hold up hands while holding a hymnal. (I disagree with projection screen thingy too.)

But I don't think its against the Word of God either. And I don't get bent out of shape if somebody does it.


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## blhowes

FenderPriest said:


> I personally lift my hands as an expression of passion and love for the Lord.


 Thanks for sharing your reasons. I appreciate it.



FenderPriest said:


> While worshipping God with his people, sometimes my whole body must respond to God.


Why? (hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot. Just trying to understand where you're coming from.)


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## kalawine

Prufrock said:


> Do we ever see in scripture people raising hands _while singing?_ Isn't it only in prayer? Just my
> 
> Maybe sometimes we misunderstand _why_ hands were being raised.



That's the way I understand it also Paul.
-----Added 11/25/2008 at 08:07:55 EST-----


Contra_Mundum said:


> I'm certainly not going after people who are being passionate, "feeling it", whatever.
> 
> Honestly, if JohnQPublic comes into our worship, and raises his hands at this time or that, I'm not going to say anything negative to him.
> 
> But just as honestly, I expect the majority of JohnQPublics who do that will never visit us again, "Because they are frozen-chosen, they don't emote the way I do, therefore their spirituality is defective."
> 
> *I'm not saying any of you would think that*, but I'm pretty confident that the average charismatic type (the worshipers typically with their hands up, waving them, etc) would think that about the average Reformed pew-sitter.



As an ex-charismatic I can tell you that you are right. At least as far as I'm concerned. Back "in the day" I would have walked out of your church service thinking about how "unspiritual" you were. Today, I have no desire to lift my hands. Maybe I've gone too far the "other" direction?


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## Pergamum

Contra_Mundum said:


> The fact that we have problems doesn't mean we should get rid of the RPW, right? I'm not so much advocating prohibition as I am unity. Joe wants a baptism this week. If he doesn't get to see one, or be baptized, has he been _prohibited_? Why doesn't Jane just get up *whenever *she feels like it and start singing a Psalm? Doesn't 1 Corinthians say something about this?
> 
> The conscience bound people might be right, or they might be wrong. Maybe we should ditch the hymns for this reason alone. Or maybe, the others should go to the EP church, or just comply. It's not a good testimony to _someone_ visiting at the same time, observing that patent lack of unity.
> 
> I think a lot of people who "raise their hands" know that they are not "going along with the crowd" but their issue isn't "this is biblical, therefore I'm doing it." But rather, "This is something that makes me feel good, and even better because I'm being _spiritual_ when I'm doing it." Well, bosh on that. Unity is also a spiritual good, as much or more so than raising hands.



So it sounds like you are assuming motives for those that raise their hands. I think that many are just worshipping and not trying to draw atention to themselves. There are a lot of verses about God's people raising their hands in worship, why the reluctance on our part?

Unity? If this sort of unity is good, why not have a uniform to go to church too then?


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## a1689baptist

Grymir said:


> Boy, I hate to be the fuddy-duddy here, but the 'raising up hands' usually happens in modern music settings and/or contemorary worship. I wouldn't do it. It's hard to hold up hands while holding a hymnal. (I disagree with projection screen thingy too.)
> 
> But I don't think its against the Word of God either. And I don't get bent out of shape if somebody does it.



I agree with Grymir. Perhaps that makes me a fuddy-duddy, too. A few people in our church, myself and my wife included, raise "holy hands" during the contemporary part of our worship (we sing two songs from the Trinity Hymnal--can't raise hands easily then--read from the Scriptures, and then sing, using PowerPoint, from three to five songs of a modern but very Christ-centered nature, during which I sometimes raise hands).

When asked about the appropriateness of raising hands, our pastor has said that he would like to, but he understands that some in the congregation might feel pressured to do so if he did.

I have been a member of this church for almost ten years, and I've never heard anyone mention feeling uncomfortable when others raise hands during worship.


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## Pergamum

Grymir said:


> Boy, I hate to be the fuddy-duddy here, but the 'raising up hands' usually happens in modern music settings and/or contemorary worship. I wouldn't do it. It's hard to hold up hands while holding a hymnal. (I disagree with projection screen thingy too.)
> 
> But I don't think its against the Word of God either. And I don't get bent out of shape if somebody does it.



I would say that lifting holy hands is more ancient than hymnbooks.


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## Grymir

Yeah, but did they lift up 'holy hands' to contemporary worship services?


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## Notthemama1984

contemporary is a relative term. Miriam's song was contemporary at the time.


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## Grymir

Contemporary isn't relative, it's a noun that describes a type of worship service that I disagree with because it glorifies man instead of god, and brings the world into the Church. Contemporary as you used it is an equivocation of the word as I used it. Just replace it with 'modern'


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## Notthemama1984

Grymir said:


> Contemporary isn't relative, it's a noun that describes a type of worship service that I disagree with because it glorifies man instead of god, and brings the world into the Church. Contemporary as you used it is an equivocation of the word as I used it. Just replace it with 'modern'




So did the Israelites bust out with electric guitars, drums, and pyrotechnics? HHHHMMM......No because the technology was not around


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## Grymir

Chaplainintraining said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contemporary isn't relative, it's a noun that describes a type of worship service that I disagree with because it glorifies man instead of god, and brings the world into the Church. Contemporary as you used it is an equivocation of the word as I used it. Just replace it with 'modern'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So did the Israelites bust out with electric guitars, drums, and pyrotechnics? HHHHMMM......No because the technology was not around
Click to expand...


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## Contra_Mundum

Pergamum said:


> So it sounds like you are assuming motives for those that raise their hands. I think that many are just worshipping and not trying to draw atention to themselves. There are a lot of verses about God's people raising their hands in worship, why the reluctance on our part?
> 
> Unity? If this sort of unity is good, why not have a uniform to go to church too then?


First of all, Pergy,
I think you'd be right to acknowledge that I didn't disparage raising hands, I just said my opinion of how it OUGHT to be done. I didn't ask you to agree with that, I just offered my judgment based on what I understand the purpose for the assembly of the host of the Lord, i.e. the church gathered.

I was the first person in this thread to offer the quote from 1Tim.2:8.

Since my claim that SOME motives are exactly as I've described them has been corroborated by a former holder of those opinions [see above], I don't think that highlighting the pesudo-spirituality of some of the hand-waving, and thereby noting that perhaps the abuse of a thing should be checked if possible, is a misplaced goal.

I also said I would not say a word to *anyone* who was not bothering anyone with his private moment of passion, publicly displayed. If I experience one of those, I hope no one bothers me either! Chances are, it would be just tears running down my cheeks, but that's just me. I'm not one of those "unselfconscious exuberants" who gets the joy, and raises hands and does the swaying.

But I'll tell you, if he starts to prostrate himself (because that's in the Bible lots too) someone is probably going to ask him if he needs a doctor.

I mean, at what point does worship stop being about ME and how I'M feeling about the moment, insisting that I have a right to express myself "biblically"; and become more about my BROTHERS, and the church as a unit?

Finally, the point about uniforms is just rhetorical hyperbole.
I'm serious; its not as if the Scriptures have nothing at all to say on the subject of unity, order, or decorum in worship.1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. *Let all things be done for building up*. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, *and each in turn*,... 33 For *God is not a God of confusion* but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, ... 40 But all things should be done *decently *and *in order*.​I'll simply go back to what I said at first. I have a suggestion for the raising of hands; _anyone is welcome to like it or leave it._ Here it is: Let's all do it together. Or let the leader (or the one doing the public prayer--same thing) do it for the rest. Because if it gets out of hand, if its obvious we are not all operating out of the same playbook, then our witness suffers.

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?


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## Tim

I have noticed that a common practice is to lift hands during the chorus and not during the verse. At times, you can predict when people will do it, as if on cue when the "emotional" part of the chorus occurs.

I have never really asked people why they do it. I can say that when I went to a church in the past that was more charismatic, I felt a sort of peer pressure to lift hands. 

Just some observations.


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## Pilgrim's Progeny

I too felt somewhat pressured to lift my hands, and even felt somewhat more spiritual in doing so to he extent that I lifted my hands regardless of mood and circumstance, only because it was expected.


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## FenderPriest

blhowes said:


> FenderPriest said:
> 
> 
> 
> While worshipping God with his people, sometimes my whole body must respond to God.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? (hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot. Just trying to understand where you're coming from.)
Click to expand...


Hey Bob, 
You're not putting me on the spot - and yet you are!  I try to only post on threads where I feel I can expound beyond the original post, so no worries about asking.

I think, in retrospect, saying "my whole body must respond" sounds a little more, er, ecstatic than I meant it to (i.e. shaking around, etc.). What I mean is that there'll be the desire to jump on occasion (not that often) or clap hands, stomp feet, while responding to the glory of God in the Gospel during songs at church - or at home, whichever. So, anyhow, that's just to clarify the phrase.

Part of my reason for doing so is simply that I see that pattern in Scripture. If there's anything we learn about the worship depicted for us in the Revelation in the throne room of heaven, it's that it is at least a "full person" exercise. That is, it involved a loud voice, and an active body with it. It's a conscious use of the body to express the value of God.

For me personally, the parts of worship in song that I raise my hands during, maybe a jump or two in my space, or do a little hip jiggle (j/k), are the parts where by the Spirit's illumination the glory of Christ is most precious to me, where I am more keenly aware of that invitation, "taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). And because I do taste and see that he is good, I want my physical reactions to convey to him his value. 

Does that a helpful answer?


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## he beholds

FenderPriest said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FenderPriest said:
> 
> 
> 
> While worshipping God with his people, sometimes my whole body must respond to God.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? (hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot. Just trying to understand where you're coming from.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Bob,
> You're not putting me on the spot - and yet you are!  I try to only post on threads where I feel I can expound beyond the original post, so no worries about asking.
> 
> I think, in retrospect, saying "my whole body must respond" sounds a little more, er, ecstatic than I meant it to (i.e. shaking around, etc.). What I mean is that there'll be the desire to jump on occasion (not that often) or clap hands, stomp feet, while responding to the glory of God in the Gospel during songs at church - or at home, whichever. So, anyhow, that's just to clarify the phrase.
> 
> Part of my reason for doing so is simply that I see that pattern in Scripture. If there's anything we learn about the worship depicted for us in the Revelation in the throne room of heaven, it's that it is at least a "full person" exercise. That is, it involved a loud voice, and an active body with it. It's a conscious use of the body to express the value of God.
> 
> For me personally, the parts of worship in song that I raise my hands during, maybe a jump or two in my space, or do a little hip jiggle (j/k), are the parts where by the Spirit's illumination the glory of Christ is most precious to me, where I am more keenly aware of that invitation, "taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). And because I do taste and see that he is good, I want my physical reactions to convey to him his value.
> 
> Does that a helpful answer?
Click to expand...


I do sometimes _feel_ like clapping when my pastor says something great. And I do tear up sometimes, which is also a physiological/emotional response.
I do laugh if something is funny. 
So emotions cannot be ruled out.


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## Jon Lake

I lift.....I get better reception. (Sorry...someone had to say it.)


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## blhowes

FenderPriest said:


> ...or do a little hip jiggle (j/k)






FenderPriest said:


> Was that a helpful answer?


Yes, thanks.



FenderPriest said:


> Part of my reason for doing so is simply that I see that pattern in Scripture. If there's anything we learn about the worship depicted for us in the Revelation in the throne room of heaven, it's that it is at least a "full person" exercise. That is, it involved a loud voice, and an active body with it. It's a conscious use of the body to express the value of God.


I'll have to reread Revelation 4 and 5 to better understand what you're referring to. I'm sure what you say about it is true. Given that its in there, how do we then determine if the intent was to provide information about how we are to worship now...or not?


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## FenderPriest

blhowes said:


> Given that its in there, how do we then determine if the intent was to provide information about how we are to worship now...or not?


I would simply see all of Scripture as instructive and from God for our knowledge of him. I imagine one could read Rev. 1:3, "blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" as indicating that we should follow the pattern of worship seen in the angelic beings (4 angels, 24 elders, etc.). I'm not sure about that though (since the verse speaks more to perseverance than to worship practice). However, my line of thinking on the angelic pattern as instructive for our own worship is that their worship pleases God, and thus should be a pattern we should desire to follow in desiring to do what pleases and glorifies God. Their reaction to God's glory tells a lot about their understanding of God and their value of God (that he's holy, that no one but God stands in his presence, etc.). I know that some RPW folks take these scenes as a picture of the church triumphant, and thus not for us today). I'm not convinced by that. In the end, I don't see any legitimate reason to think we _shouldn't_ follow their example, especially considering the psalmists own instructions on worship (raise hands, be loud, etc.).


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## LawrenceU

Let's see if I understand this: The matter of raising hands, laying prostrate, being moved emotionally in the worship of a holy God, who without input or merit on my part chose me from eternity past, forever became flesh, suffered the wrath of the Eternal Father which should have been mine, gave me his righteousness, and for some strange reason desires to have me serve him is inappropriate?

I don't get it. I'm not saying that anyone is less 'spiritual' or mature if they don't worship in this manner, but the opposite sure seems to be implied by some.* God made each of us different. We communicate differently, we 'emote' differently, and God loves it.

*EDIT: The apparent implication often comes across that those of who are more 'emotive' in worship are somehow less mature or spiritual than those who are less emotive.


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## Contra_Mundum

Lawrence,
I'm certainly not flipping this thing on its head and accusing the "more" emotional of immaturity.

But as soon as you tell the first person in your church, "Hey! Stop 'dancing before the Lord,' brother, you're disturbing the other 99 sheep," have you just placed a limit on the Holy Ghost? The guy was doing cartwheels in the aisle!

You might say, "Well, that's obviously..." Whoa! That's a subjective standard. How dare you impose on the Almighty... David did it.

Is the gathering of the saints just so we can loosely aggregate our "individualities", our atomized spirits, in one place for an hour? We slip in and out of the corporation, like flower children at Woodstock?

I'm suggesting that perhaps church-gathering is for a different purpose. And if so, then we need to ask "how does God want me to worship him corporately, IN BODY and spirit?" That's a question to be answered from the Bible, and not according to however I feel the Spirit is moving me. And how I worship him in the corporate body is not necessarily supposed to look the same as when I am all alone.


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## LawrenceU

Bruce, with due respect, I believe that is a red herring. The actions being discussed are not in the same ballpark as the cartwheeling that you mention. Obviously there are cultural norms in play here as well.


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## Contra_Mundum

OK, LU,
I'm tired of arguing about it.

Personally, I just wanted it clear that painting my position as one being _against_ hand raising was improper.

Then, to be clear that I wasn't taking a position on the hearts or immaturity of hand raisers.


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## LawrenceU

I understand. I wasn't trying to impune anyone. I may have been misunderstanding some of what you were saying. No offense meant. I do think that culture has more of a role to play in this than some would warrant. Case in point: I grew up in the non instrumental Church of Christ. Just about anything that would be viewed as a display of emotional response in any form was suspect if not condemned. Imagine my surprise when I went to Latin America and saw churches with the exact same theological standards clapping, smiling, raising hands, etc. when they would sing corporately! Not just one congregation, but almost all of them. It became very clear that it was a cultural difference. Those same differences exist in our nation as well. They may not be as clearly cut, but they are here nonetheless.


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## Pergamum

Contra_Mundum said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like you are assuming motives for those that raise their hands. I think that many are just worshipping and not trying to draw atention to themselves. There are a lot of verses about God's people raising their hands in worship, why the reluctance on our part?
> 
> Unity? If this sort of unity is good, why not have a uniform to go to church too then?
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Pergy,
> I think you'd be right to acknowledge that I didn't disparage raising hands, I just said my opinion of how it OUGHT to be done. I didn't ask you to agree with that, I just offered my judgment based on what I understand the purpose for the assembly of the host of the Lord, i.e. the church gathered.
> 
> I was the first person in this thread to offer the quote from 1Tim.2:8.
> 
> Since my claim that SOME motives are exactly as I've described them has been corroborated by a former holder of those opinions [see above], I don't think that highlighting the pesudo-spirituality of some of the hand-waving, and thereby noting that perhaps the abuse of a thing should be checked if possible, is a misplaced goal.
> 
> I also said I would not say a word to *anyone* who was not bothering anyone with his private moment of passion, publicly displayed. If I experience one of those, I hope no one bothers me either! Chances are, it would be just tears running down my cheeks, but that's just me. I'm not one of those "unselfconscious exuberants" who gets the joy, and raises hands and does the swaying.
> 
> But I'll tell you, if he starts to prostrate himself (because that's in the Bible lots too) someone is probably going to ask him if he needs a doctor.
> 
> I mean, at what point does worship stop being about ME and how I'M feeling about the moment, insisting that I have a right to express myself "biblically"; and become more about my BROTHERS, and the church as a unit?
> 
> Finally, the point about uniforms is just rhetorical hyperbole.
> I'm serious; its not as if the Scriptures have nothing at all to say on the subject of unity, order, or decorum in worship.1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. *Let all things be done for building up*. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, *and each in turn*,... 33 For *God is not a God of confusion* but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, ... 40 But all things should be done *decently *and *in order*.​I'll simply go back to what I said at first. I have a suggestion for the raising of hands; _anyone is welcome to like it or leave it._ Here it is: Let's all do it together. Or let the leader (or the one doing the public prayer--same thing) do it for the rest. Because if it gets out of hand, if its obvious we are not all operating out of the same playbook, then our witness suffers.
> 
> 1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
Click to expand...


Ok, guilty as charged on the rhetorical hyperbole charge.

You've won me over - the unity thing is nice. I think you are right.

About prostrating.....yes, that would be odd.

by the way, I always mispronounce and then crack up laughing at that hymn "Crown him LOrd of all..." because when they sing "let angels prostrate fall.." I always say "angel's prostates..." I guess that is a lot more distracting than some high on the Spirit fella swaying to the music in front of me.


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## LawrenceU

> I always say "angel's prostates..." I


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## blhowes

LawrenceU said:


> Case in point: I grew up in the non instrumental Church of Christ. Just about anything that would be viewed as a display of emotional response in any form was suspect if not condemned. Imagine my surprise when I went to Latin America and saw churches with the exact same theological standards clapping, smiling, raising hands, etc. when they would sing corporately! Not just one congregation, but almost all of them. It became very clear that it was a cultural difference. Those same differences exist in our nation as well. They may not be as clearly cut, but they are here nonetheless.


The culture around us, I'm sure (?) you'll agree, shouldn't dictate how we are to worship, what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. How do we put cultural differences into their proper place when determining how we should conduct ourselves during corporate worship?
-----Added 11/26/2008 at 12:52:33 EST-----


LawrenceU said:


> I always say "angel's prostates..." I
Click to expand...

I was tempted to say that this is yet another argument in support of the EP position, but I'll refrain.


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## panta dokimazete

Why? EP says nothing about culture, you could write a latin tune to a Psalm, raise your hands and dance to it, mispronounce words, etc...


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## blhowes

panta dokimazete said:


> Why? EP says nothing about culture, you could write a latin tune to a Psalm, raise your hands and dance to it, mispronounce words, etc...


As I said, "I was tempted to say". I'm glad I didn't actually come out and say it, 'cause you're right.


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## Scott1

> Contra_Mundum
> "da wabbit"
> 
> 
> "how does God want me to worship him corporately, IN BODY and spirit?" That's a question to be answered from the Bible, and not according to however I feel the Spirit is moving me. And how I worship him in the corporate body is not necessarily supposed to look the same as when I am all alone.



This is a good point. It illustrates the difference between viewing public (corporate) worship as:

God telling the Body of Christ to worship him corporately (together) in this way (regulative principle of worship, regulated by the express command of the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture) 

v.

Man doing what man imagines he, individually, will do to worship God
(worship based on personal interpretation of what the Holy Spirit is leading him to do at that moment. Unregulated principle of worship) 

v.

Man doing anything he understands is generally permissible in Scripture but without reference to the corporate worship context around him (this may still be governed by the regulative principle of worship as to form because Scripture does countenance lifting of hands, but not done decently and in order with reference to the corporate nature of the worship taking place around him).


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## panta dokimazete

blhowes said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? EP says nothing about culture, you could write a latin tune to a Psalm, raise your hands and dance to it, mispronounce words, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, "I was tempted to say". I'm glad I didn't actually come out and say it, 'cause you're right.
Click to expand...


Thanks - and just 'cause I am home between teleconferences:

Psalm 116:1-9 blues style to these lyrics


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## Confessor

Seeing as I don't doubt that the affections aroused by God in the religious revivals of past centuries were valid (_via_ Jonathan Edwards among others), I am certainly not averse to other people raising their hands or doing other minor expressions in worship -- assuming, of course, that they are being done for the right reasons.

With that, there is always a _caveat_, usually because of church unity, as Bruce said. The unity of the church can be defined and maintained with principles, but not with strict applications, as the Churches of Christ visited by Lawrence can attest to. That is, since unity is ultimately rooted in a personal feeling -- "Do I feel as part of a coherent whole with the rest of the congregation?" -- there will always be a subjective aspect to unity, but since there are many similarities between people -- e.g. I bet people would agree with my dislike of people doing cartwheels as a means of "expressing themselves" -- there is much overlap and therefore an objective aspect of church unity.

So, my view would be that emotional expressions are allowed in worship insofar as they do not disrupt unity, which is strictly up to the other people in the congregation. As one instance, it would be wrong to raise one's hands amongst a congregation that would be distracted or otherwise rubbed the wrong way by doing so, but it would be perfectly permissible in a congregation which did not care. It would be universally wrong to do cartwheels in the middle of worship, but only because that is something which would be disliked and averse to unity in all congregations (I think it would!).


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## blhowes

packabacka said:


> Seeing as I don't doubt that the affections aroused by God in the religious revivals of past centuries were valid (_via_ Jonathan Edwards among others), I am certainly not averse to other people raising their hands or doing other minor expressions in worship -- assuming, of course, that they are being *done for the right reasons*.


I guess that brings me back to square 1. Me raising hands during worship is foreign to me. If I were in a church where everybody was unified that its acceptable to express yourself by raising your hands, etc., I'd still be looking around, scratching my head (figuratively...maybe literally), wondering why I would raise my hands as an act of worship. Bowing my head during worship, I show reverence for God. Raising my hands, I show _______.


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## panta dokimazete

trust, dependence, longing...


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## blhowes

blhowes said:


> Bowing my head during worship, I show reverence for God. Raising my hands, I show _______.
> 
> 
> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> 
> trust, dependence, longing...
Click to expand...

Now that's what I'm looking for. Thanks!


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## BJClark

blhowes;4




> Have you ever been to a church where some of the people are lifting up their hands during worship and praising God? Not in the way you might picture charasmatics doing it, but more privately, hardly noticeable.
> 
> 
> From time-to-time, I'll notice during worship folks that have their hands raised, usually while music is being sung. Its not disruptive at all, its done very discretely. For them, it looks like the natural thing to do. For me, it would seem extremely unnatural to raise my hands (or to do anything of the sort with my hands) during worship.
> 
> As Felix Unger once said, its not good to assume, but I'm going to assume that most here don't raise their hands during worship. If you do, what is the motivation? If you use to be charasmatic or something and did at one time, what was your motivation then?



There are some in our church who raise hands during singing, and some who don't, I do on occasion, it's actually something I struggled with internally for awhile and wouldn't raise hands because 'nobody' else was (when really there were some, I just hadn't looked close enough), and felt it would be distracting to others, and I realized I was more concerned about man and what they would think than God, and what He was convicting me of doing.


If it was distracting someone else, why were they looking at me (just as why was I looking to see what they are doing)? Their focus, just like mine should be on God, not on what someone across the church or next to me is doing, if I am focusing on them, then my focus is not where it needs to be...On God and God alone, 

I've come to see when I stop thinking about what others might think, and place my on God where it belongs, my hands go up in praise to Him, especially when I'm singing..

So I guess my question back to you would be...why are you focusing on others who may be lifting their hands in praise to God and not God? 

If your being distracted by that, that alone should get you to thinking..wait a minute..why am I looking at what they are doing..

"God forgive me for looking at them and not You"

But I've never seen anyone get up and do cartwheels or start yelling or dancing..and have had no desire to do so myself..but I have seen others in church, including our pastors on occasion raising hands during times of singing..and even then I feel convicted, not that I am not doing the same, but because I realize, my heart is not focused on God as it should be, it's being drawn away from him...not because of what they are doing..but merely because my heart is prone to be distracted from God, even during times of corporate worship.


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## blhowes

BJClark said:


> So I guess my question back to you would be...why are you focusing on others who may be lifting their hands in praise to God and not God?


I sit in the back, they sit in the front and are in my field of vision as I look at the song leader.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

by the way, I always mispronounce and then crack up laughing at that hymn "Crown him LOrd of all..." because when they sing "let angels prostrate fall.." I always say "angel's prostates..." I guess that is a lot more distracting than some high on the Spirit fella swaying to the music in front of me. 


Pergy, 
You're such a nurse!
BTW, The words come from the 2nd line of the hymn, "All Hail the Power of Jesus Name" This is actually one of my favorite hymns.


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## Spinningplates2

First they came for those who would not raise their hands, and I said nothing. Then they came for those who would not clap their hands to the music, and I said nothing. Finally they came for those who would not give a "hand clap offering of praise" to God, and it was to late to do anything. Just kidding, but not really, kinda maybe


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## JBaldwin

I am very late to this thread, but I'll add my 

There was a time when raising of the hands was an offense to me. Then one day when I was worshipping in church, I was so overwhelmed by the greatness of God while we were singing, I wanted to raise my hands, but I kept them down for fear of what others were thinking or that it might be a distraction. 

A few weeks later, it happened again, and I kept my hands glued to my side, but to be honest, I felt a little guilty about keeping my hands down. Another time, I was alone singing and praying, and I didn't feel one bit self conscious and up went my hands. 

Then one Sunday while we were singing a particularly worshipful song, I spied the pastor raising his hands in praise to God. He was so caught up in the worship of God that I don't think he could have kept his hands down if he wanted to. I have only seen him do it once or twice since. This was no programmed response and it was not a distraction to me at all. In fact, it made me realize that discreet hand raising as an wholehearted worshipful response to God is not wrong. 

I would venture to say that if we feel compelled to raise our hands in worship now and again and don't because we are afraid, we _might_ be sinning against our conscience as I was doing.


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## SueS

Contra_Mundum said:


> But just as honestly, I expect the majority of JohnQPublics who do that will never visit us again, "Because they are frozen-chosen, they don't emote the way I do, therefore their spirituality is defective."
> 
> *I'm not saying any of you would think that*, but I'm pretty confident that the average charismatic type (the worshipers typically with their hands up, waving them, etc) would think that about the average Reformed pew-sitter.






Oy vey!!! Boy, did you ever hit that nail right on the head!!!

My charismatic son-in-law is so hung up on the fact that we don't raise our hands and * especially* that we don't clap, that it pretty much escapes him that at our church he's actually able to hear the Word of God exposited in contrast with the man-centred moralism that passes for preaching at our former church where he still goes. It's frustrating!!!


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## steven-nemes

I go to a pentecostal church and I have had discussions regarding raising hands, swaying left and right, etc., with my friends; some of them seem to believe that true worship brings about some kind of physical response, like crying, or raising your hand, or breaking into loud prayer, etc., so long as it is _something_. I think I can interpret them as having said that _not_ doing these things is not real worship. I seem to be sort of an extremist in the other direction--I don't like loud prayer, I can't remember the last time a song made me feel like raising my hands, or praying out loud, or crying, etc., nor do I associate worship with any of those things; in fact I have felt "closer to God" to use that kind of language when I have studied scripture, understood it, realized its implications in my life or in some issue I have been dealing with, and I thought about that for a while or felt good about being able to understand. My friends might feel closer to God or stronger in their faith when they have gone to a prayer meeting and have prayed and sung for a while, but I seem to feel stronger in my faith when I have a better intellectual grasp of Christianity... Am I wrong here, or am I looking at it wrongly?


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