# Inaccurate Christmas Traditions/Songs/Tales



## nick (Dec 18, 2014)

I've seen a few comments on the PB about the inaccuracies of Christmas stories and songs, but they are asides to the initial thread. I didn't want to derail those threads, but I'm interested in what you guys and gals know of.

Thanks!


----------



## hammondjones (Dec 18, 2014)

Well, there's the (3?) Wise Men being at the birth, of course.

No crying he makes? Not sure about that one.

Regarding the annunciation to the shepherds, most carols follow the KJV and Textus Receptus with "Goodwill to Men", but I have heard newer carols that have "On whom his favor rests", using the genitive eudokiav in the CT instead of the nominative eudokia. (No textual position implied, just facts). However, some of the "Goodwill to Men" songs take a decidedly universalistic and/or humanistic tone, like I Heard the Bells.


----------



## Romans922 (Dec 18, 2014)

The whole thing is a sham created by men to be clever. It should all be abolished. And will be no more when Jesus returns. Guaranteed.


----------



## arapahoepark (Dec 18, 2014)

The idea of an 'inn' as some sort of motel 6 that had no room. Inn was a conjoined room to a house either on the side or on top.


----------



## Jack K (Dec 18, 2014)

The commercial inn with innkeeper is probably the one that the most Americans wrongly take for granted most often, especially given the fact that Luke's only other use of the word is for the room where the Last Supper was eaten. My understanding is that it probably ought to be thought of as "guest room."


----------



## SolaScriptura (Dec 18, 2014)

Whether it was a first century Motel 6 or a spare room at someone's house... what does it matter? The point is, there was no place for them to stay.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 18, 2014)

There is also the small detail that Jesus was not born in December...


----------



## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Dec 18, 2014)

I wonder how the "Silent the Night" was when they "Heard the Angels on High".


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 18, 2014)

"I wish it could be Christmas every day!" - now that has got to be the most inaccurate song ever!


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Dec 18, 2014)

Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> I wonder how the "Silent the Night" was when they "Heard the Angels on High".



Kind of like the "secret" rapture that will be announced with a trumpet call


----------



## Jake (Dec 18, 2014)

> False Teaching Regarding Christ’s birth
> 
> A number of songs in the Free Presbyterian Hymnal speak of Christ’s Incarnation and nativity, especially hymns 75-87. Several of these go beyond or contradict the sacred Scriptures.
> 
> ...



From here: Our Own Hymnbook Versus God's Own Hymnbook
Also, worth reading the next section, entitled: May One Sing Hymns in a Sense Different
from their Words and Intended Meaning?


----------



## nick (Dec 18, 2014)

Romans922 said:


> The whole thing is a sham created by men to be clever. It should all be abolished. And will be no more when Jesus returns. Guaranteed.



Rev. Barnes,

We are in agreement with the folks who celebrate Christmas that Jesus was born. I'm looking for examples of where the Christmas stories and songs trump our knowledge (or lack of knowledge in some cases).

Example: Up until this year - yes, this year - I thought Christ was born in a barn with animals all around, because there was no room in any inn (hotel in my mind). Oh, and last year I found out a barn is not a manger.



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> There is also the small detail that Jesus was not born in December...



Rev. Glaser,

I've heard people defend the idea of Christ being born on December 25th. That always seemed like a wonky argument. Even if you were to convince me that he was born in or around December, I still wouldn't connect the dots of assigning a day when a day was never given.


----------



## Romans922 (Dec 18, 2014)

nick said:


> We are in agreement with the folks who celebrate Christmas that Jesus was born. I'm looking for examples of where the Christmas stories and songs trump our knowledge (or lack of knowledge in some cases).



This is all confusing for me. For one, I don't agree with folks who celebrate chrismass about much anything they believe concerning chrismass because it all revolves around a lie. And God is the God of truth.

Secondly, I fail to see how stories/songs trump our knowledge. God's word is all that trumps our knowledge. I find such stories and songs with hints of lies or straight lies (which both are lies in full), and again God is a God of truth not lies. Satan is the father of lies, so such stories/songs, are not the basis for knowledge. God's word is.


----------



## whirlingmerc (Dec 18, 2014)

the men from the east didn't arrive for a couple years
the animal feeding trough manger was probably made of stone
they were probably in a cave, not a wooden building
The angels army may have spoken the words not sung them to shepherds


----------



## Romans922 (Dec 18, 2014)

See even things like that Michael are unneeded. The words 'probably' and 'may' is of the same assumptions we find in such stories/songs. Let's stick to what Scripture says.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Dec 18, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> the men from the east didn't arrive for a couple years



Not necessarily. Your assertion is based on the fact that Herod ordered all male children 2 and under to be killed, but this in and of itself is not conclusive. Herod could simply have been employing overkill to ensure success. Most scholars tell us that Jesus was born in either 5 or 6 BC, and Matthew tells us that Joseph and Mary returned from Egypt once Herod died, which was in 4 BC. Even allowing for travel time, it still seems that all the events described up to the return from Egypt had to occur over a span of no more than two years, and so it is rather unlikely that Jesus was already 2 when the wise men came to visit. There is also no really good reason to assume that Mary and Joseph would have stayed in Bethlehem for so long considering they lived in Nazareth. At any rate, this is not particularly important, but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in anyway.


----------



## jambo (Dec 18, 2014)

I always maintain that the world celebrates Christmas but Christians remember the incarnation. I would also say that a lot of modern Christmas traditions own more to Charles Dickens than the biblical narratives. The snow scenes that are often seen in a Victorian setting for example.


----------



## Jack K (Dec 18, 2014)

Although certainly there is much that people do get wrong... I disagree with the claims that references to "singing" are inaccurate. Although the songs recorded by Luke are recorded as "Mary said" or as the angels "saying," clearly they are in verse form. To refer to them as songs is not a stretch, whether or not any music was employed. (Nor would any singing in these cases damage anyone's case for what source material ought to be sung in church, in my opinion, so you can relax.)


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 18, 2014)

Why is it that we tolerate so much that is wrong, inaccurate, etc... around this particular day that we wouldn't for other days? 

Would you sing songs that spoke of Easter happening in July? 

I think it has a lot to do with the kitsch and nostalgia that is so tied into the holiday. 

One thing worth to think about as well is how nearly all of these things are Western European traditions that inevitable get confused for Biblical commands.


----------



## nick (Dec 18, 2014)

Romans922 said:


> nick said:
> 
> 
> > We are in agreement with the folks who celebrate Christmas that Jesus was born. I'm looking for examples of where the Christmas stories and songs trump our knowledge (or lack of knowledge in some cases).
> ...



Forgive me for presenting my question and follow-up comment in a confusing way. This thread is not to debate the validity of Christmas (there are tons of those already on the PB). This is specifically about Christmas songs and stories people know that are inconsistent with what the Bible says (or doesn't say) happened.

The only thing I said you agreed with Christmas believers was that Jesus was born. Nothing else. Forgive me for implying that you would agree with them on that. I do agree with them on that, even if I don't agree with anything else (which is not the case).

Christmas songs and stories are not supposed to trump the truth, but in so many cases they do. Again, I was not clear in my response, so please forgive me. I know Christmas lies or assumptions are not supposed to trump the truth, but as many responses in this thread show, they sadly do for a lot of people that claim to stand on the Word of God alone.

Again, sorry for my poorly stated question and follow-up comment. I think we agree on much, but due to my inadequacies I created unnecessary confusion.


----------



## Romans922 (Dec 18, 2014)

I understand, you mean these things "attempt to trump the truth" and/or "trump many peoples' idea of the truth".


----------



## nick (Dec 18, 2014)

Romans922 said:


> I understand, you mean these things "attempt to trump the truth" and/or "trump many peoples' idea of the truth".



Exactly.

I was just telling my wife at dinner about how I always thought I knew the story about the birth of Christ better than any story in the Bible. And why wouldn't I? I (thought I) reviewed it every year for about 30 days and sang songs about it. By God's grace in the last 5-6 years he has slowly taken away my misconceptions about how beneficial that was.

The craziest thing to me now, is that I read the story from the Bible a lot growing up, but I would read into it all of my assumed or completely false parts of the story without even considering it. How blind I was.


----------



## jwithnell (Dec 18, 2014)

A bigger problem occurs when people disassociate Jesus' incarnation from His holy life, death, resurrection, and glorification. Warm, fuzzy feelings about a baby cannot begin to capture the redemption He has wrought for us.


----------



## Rich Koster (Dec 19, 2014)

Christ-Mass. The mass is an abomination. Isn't that a lovely way to honor the supposed birthday of our Lord, by sacrificing Him afresh?


----------



## Peairtach (Dec 19, 2014)

The wise men arrived at "the house". By this time the family were in a house in Bethlehem. This could have been up to two year's after Christ's birth.

The wise men may have been from China if it took them two years to get to Judea.

That's my penny's worth and speculation.



Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## JoannaV (Dec 20, 2014)

The one that hit me a couple of years ago was Mary and Joseph (plus donkey) knocking on the door of the inn... I'd heard the Gospel accounts many times. I grew up in a home that didn't celebrate Christmas. I knew all the things about the wise men and so on. Yet still my mind sees that portion of the Nativity plays...


----------



## YoungLearner (Dec 20, 2014)

Well, how about the lyrics for "The First Noel", "Come on, Ring those Bells", and "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear"? 

Either way, if I hear any more exhortations to "Put/Keep Christ in Christmas" or "Remember it's His birthday", I think I'll scream. Not celebrating the holiday is tantamount to denying His virgin birth where I live. 

Why do people have to be so insistent on celebrating Christmas? Spending time with your family, giving (practical, not frivolous) gifts, and doing good for others can be done all year round, yet people HAVE to do it on Dec. 25th. People could pick one day a year to do all of those things, yet not do it under the pretense of 'celebrating' Christ's birth...

How they have figured out that He was born on Dec. 25th is beyond me.


----------



## Miss Marple (Dec 20, 2014)

Interesting blog post on the subject:

A Fair, Unbiased, and Slightly Grumpy Review Of Christmas Songs


----------



## Free Christian (Dec 20, 2014)

The universal idea that Christmas is associated with snow and the likes. Here it occurs in summer and can be in temperatures well above 30c or even 40c.
Snow men, reindeers, dashing through the snow  Ill go into a shop and on the sound system will be playing "frosty the snow man, or dashing through the snow in a one horse open sleigh...." then go and get into my car and put the aircon on. The older I get the more astounded I am at what people blindly do and believe in. Every day I feel more and more like a stranger in a foreign land. That's a good thing right ,....... yeah, its good.


----------



## Jack K (Dec 20, 2014)

You'd think some Aussie would write a hot-weather Christmas song.


----------



## KeithW (Dec 21, 2014)

nick said:


> Christmas songs and stories are not supposed to trump the truth, but in so many cases they do. Again, I was not clear in my response, so please forgive me. I know Christmas lies or assumptions are not supposed to trump the truth, but as many responses in this thread show, they sadly do for a lot of people that claim to stand on the Word of God alone.


Well said.


----------



## Somerset (Dec 21, 2014)

The card we received from our Polish friends has the stable covered in snow and the shepherds wearing traditional Polish clothing.


----------



## Free Christian (Dec 21, 2014)

Here you go Jack. 
Dashing through the forest, 
with bushfire closing fast, 
hope we will survive, 
hope the rain comes fast.
Santa what a joke,
snow men, seriously,
in 45 Celsius heat,
that surely cannot be.
Ooh, Christmas time, here we go, more lies on the way
Shame that so much errors mixed with what they say.
Falsehood here, falsehood there, falsehood everywhere.
Be glad when its all over, its getting hard to bear.


----------



## Jack K (Dec 22, 2014)

Well, that was just... lovely.


----------



## Brian R. (Dec 22, 2014)

M. Rothenbuhler, 

Thanks for that link! Funny, yet so true!


----------



## Warren (Dec 22, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> The wise men arrived at "the house". By this time the family were in a house in Bethlehem. This could have been up to two year's after Christ's birth.
> 
> The wise men may have been from China if it took them two years to get to Judea.
> 
> ...


Is it tradition the wise men were heathen?


----------



## whirlingmerc (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm thinking the song singing about snow 'on the feast of Steven' is a little odd to emphasize the snow being 'rich and thick and even'
I suppose a snowball fight reenacting the stoning would be naughty not nice


----------



## whirlingmerc (Dec 23, 2014)

Warren said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > The wise men arrived at "the house". By this time the family were in a house in Bethlehem. This could have been up to two year's after Christ's birth.
> ...





I don't know the tradition but the wise men remind me of Melchizadek, he just appears and disappears.... 
I think the wise men portend the nations eventually coming to Christ however God prepared them


----------



## Edm (Dec 23, 2014)

I was going to add "The First Noel"
Cold winters night...shepherds looking up and seeing a star to the East..


----------



## Warren (Dec 23, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> I don't know the tradition but the wise men remind me of Melchizadek, he just appears and disappears....
> I think the wise men portend the nations eventually coming to Christ however God prepared them


I was wondering if they were diaspora Jews, but I've always heard they were heathen...


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 23, 2014)

Why do churches that celebrate Christ's birth do it on the night before and not the day of?


----------



## kodos (Dec 23, 2014)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Why do churches that celebrate Christ's birth do it on the night before and not the day of?



Well, you got to hand it to the Roman Catholics - I think many of their churches have a Mass on the 25th. They are consistent if nothing else. Protestants - 0, Catholics - 1.

As for our family: it will be a most fitting time for us to take our turn to clean the church building!


----------



## nick (Dec 27, 2014)

Miss Marple said:


> Interesting blog post on the subject:
> 
> A Fair, Unbiased, and Slightly Grumpy Review Of Christmas Songs



Thank you for the link... The comment in reference to _Little Drummer Boy_: "What does newborn baby Jesus need most? Sleep? Food? A warm, peaceful environment? Nope! A loud drum solo! What does Mary need after spending hours in labor? A drum line!"

Hilarious.


----------



## whirlingmerc (Dec 27, 2014)

I suspect Protestants leave family time for Christmas Day and Thansgiving Day


----------



## kodos (Dec 28, 2014)

This may be veering too far Nick's stated goals for the thread. But if I may expand on the line of inquiry that Rev. Glaser started... Many Protestants (including elders in my old PCA church) call Dec. 25th a "holy day". If this were actually true, then I'd expect there to be some sort of corporate worship service.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Dec 28, 2014)

Calling xmas a "holy day" is on its face a denial of Presbyterian worship principles.


----------



## jambo (Dec 28, 2014)

Warren said:


> whirlingmerc said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know the tradition but the wise men remind me of Melchizadek, he just appears and disappears....
> ...



No one knows of course who the magi were, where they came from or how many there were other than they were from the east and there were more than one. (It's possible there were only two) I have often wondered whether they came from Babylon. With the Jews spending 70 years in captivity there, did they leave any OT writings there? All speculation but the Lord led them to the HOUSE where the CHILD was.


----------

