# Wesley quote



## cih1355 (Jun 19, 2006)

According to Wikipedia, Wesley said that he never loved God. Can anyone verify that he really said that?

Here is the quote from Wikipedia:

"Despite his achievements he never quite overcame profound self-doubt. At the age of 63, he wrote to his brother, (possibly speaking in metaphors) "I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word." (Quoted, Tomkins John Wesley: A Biography (Eerdmans, 2003) 168.)"


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## Puritanhead (Jun 19, 2006)

I think Wesley was a Christian.


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## Larry Hughes (Jun 19, 2006)

This is the great irony concerning John Wesley. Because he so sought his assurance in the subjective, the fruits, the good works, proof of his "regeneration", the holy and sanctification that he stole FROM HIMSELF the greatest comfort that he especially shows in this confession. If he would have looked to the objective cross he would have rested more and been assured rather than "fruit policing" his and everyone esles lives.

Ironically, this quote, which I´ve read before, is the greatest proof that John Wesley was a Christian. Only a true Christian could say such a thing and confess such a thing. Yet, Wesley missed it in his inward and subjective searching. By his own mouth this precious comforting gift was given him. But his old man kept getting in the way and would not let him see it.

The quote reminds me of Luther. He too said something similar but his focus was on the objective Cross for comfort. This allowed him to later explain that in the monastery that he said, "œLove God? Sometimes I hated Him."

This contrition of Wesley´s is the best proof that he really was a Christian even though he taught some horrible doctrine and his doctrine should be thrown out. None-the-less, this contrite statement of his, to me, is the best comfort that he is in heaven, not vice versa. The most suspect are those not willing to admit this and think "œI really love the Lord and nobody loves the Lord like I do."

If one cannot confess this as Wesley did, even as a Christian, then one ought to really consider whether or not one is really in the faith, for the opposite is the Pharisees prayer. In this quote I hear John Wesley say, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." When he says, "I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word", that's because he has a wrong definition of "christian" with all his subjective assurance and "getting better" false sanctification. This confession of his, though at the time he was blind to it, was the confession of one saying, "I'm the greatest of sinners."

Ldh


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## Laura (Jun 20, 2006)

Mm, that's very helpful, Larry, thanks. I thought for a while that this sort of Wesleyan contrition was a true mark of sanctification, too, only I couldn't reconcile it with the fact that we are supposed to be joyful. How can I be joyful if I'm still sinning and not loving God supremely? on what basis can I be assured that I'm a Christian? So joy was a sign of presumption. *sigh* The balance here shouldn't be so hard to grasp...I've joked before that people tend to talk as if they look forward more to a glorified body than anything. But give me my glorified mind, I say!


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## polemic_turtle (Jul 3, 2006)

I once sadistically thought I could use that quote to disqualify the whole Wesleyan tradition. What a lack of sensitivity, using a private quote from a man in depression! I suppose most of us don't have the honesty he had at that moment.


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## Laura (Jul 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by polemic_turtle_
> I once sadistically thought I could use that quote to disqualify the whole Wesleyan tradition. What a lack of sensitivity, using a private quote from a man in depression! I suppose most of us don't have the honesty he had at that moment.



Well, I take a look at the blogosphere and can't bring myself to agree...men and women of all ages and callings and attainments in maturity spout off such things regularly there, throwing their deepest fears and convictions out into the void to be answered back by echoes at best, and severely confused self-appointed priests at worst. It seems that your example is good to remember. It is encouraging that there is still some vestige of the idea that a person reserves such thoughts for the person to whom the letter is written or the words spoken...

Off topic. Sorry.


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## Theoretical (Jul 6, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> This is the great irony concerning John Wesley. Because he so sought his assurance in the subjective, the fruits, the good works, proof of his "regeneration", the holy and sanctification that he stole FROM HIMSELF the greatest comfort that he especially shows in this confession. If he would have looked to the objective cross he would have rested more and been assured rather than "fruit policing" his and everyone esles lives.
> 
> Ironically, this quote, which I´ve read before, is the greatest proof that John Wesley was a Christian. Only a true Christian could say such a thing and confess such a thing. Yet, Wesley missed it in his inward and subjective searching. By his own mouth this precious comforting gift was given him. But his old man kept getting in the way and would not let him see it.
> ...



 The Wesleyan Arminian view of salvation is definitely one that tears into one's soul and makes spiritually dark moments much, much darker than they have to be. If anything, Wesley's personal error is one that was more self-mutilating than anything else. It neutralizes so much of the comfort of grace and creates far more internal insecurity than one can imagine. A spiritually self-assured Methodist is an utter oxymoron and not really a Methodist. The classical emphasis on perfectionism is great for creating tremendously charitable people, but the very fact people aren't perfect, and can't be in this life (save Christ Himself) most definitely creates great fear and even despair in a believer. Methodism is certainly not the cure for a melancholy temperment, that's for sure (speaking as a former Methodist who has a definite melancholy side to him). I will agree with several of the other posters that Wesley was a believer, just a horribly mistaken one who wounded himself spiritually with his errors. Nevertheless, I have little doubt he is in the company of believers with the Lord.


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## bigheavyq (Jul 6, 2006)

Maybe, he said this after a convicting letter from whitefield on the gospel.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 6, 2006)

Larry,
I think that is a very insightful analysis.

Wesley came to the belief in total sanctification (perfectionism)--which is where I suppose the only ones deserving the name "Christian believers" were to be discovered, they having belief unmixed with any doubts, which would be sinful. And he also came to the cognition he never had attained such sinlessness. He wouldn't let go the doctrine (of perfectionism), so he had to class himself as an "unbeliever" of a sort. What a miserable treadmill!

Less than 100 years after the great ejection of the Puritans from their pulpits, such was the general state of spirituality in the national church that people flocked by the _thousands_ to Methodism, which was calling men to faith in Christ. However, Wesley's rejection of Whitefield's calvinism (and the 39 Articles containing a version of that reformed system) probably brought many (eventually) to faith in Methods.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 6, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Larry,
> I think that is a very insightful analysis.
> 
> ...



Yes, to boil it down I think we can perhaps say that Methodism is the triumph of methodolgy over theology. I think that's what Dr. Clark meant when I once saw him write that (if I recall correctly) American evangelicalism today is basically Methodist in character.


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## MW (Jul 6, 2006)

Wesley was a great admirer of the Puritans, notwithstanding all his faults. This is seen in the massive Christian library which he edited and published. Regrettably he veered towards the mystical side, as is seen in his choice of the Fathers and Episcopal authors.


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