# Struggles of a newly reformed brother.



## ReformedWretch (Apr 17, 2005)

I hesitated to post this here due to embarrassment, but I need some advice. Please go easy on me friends. I am wondering why parts of the reformed faith are such a struggle for me? Let me give you those things I am having great difficulty with.

-The Sabbath; I´ve believed for years that we are not required to esteem one day better than another and to do so was legalism. Now to shift into doing nothing on Sunday´s including watching sports or playing a game is hard for me, very hard. I feel no conviction at all for doing something on a Sunday. I do not feel as if I am sinning if I watch TV, play a game, or even go to work so long as it is after services.

-Order of worship; I feel terrible saying this, but the order of worship is so regimented that I feel bored in services. I feel as if I have been programmed in some way. Stand, sit, read, sing, group read, etc. Don´t get me wrong, the confessions are GREAT, but the whole "œorder" of things and them having to occur at certain times in the exact same way is such a struggle for me. By struggle, I mean having any heartfelt sincerity behind them. I feel like I am reading from cue cards with little meaning or emotion behind it.

-The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.

I know church isn´t for me, that it is for God and the worship of Him. I know the reformed style is based completely on the word of God. But therein lies my heartache! If that is true, why do I dislike the things I´ve mentioned so? Am I that sinful? Am I that controlled by self, pride, or "œwhat I want"? I don´t feel like I am. I love the Lord and His ways. I desire to be part of a fellowship that practices what it preaches, puts Christ first in word and DEED, and holds to the truths of God´s word without basing it on emotionalism or feelings, yet still I struggle with the things I´ve mentioned and feel like I am going to forever.

I plan on discussing this with our pastor, but it´s going to be difficult because I fear he is going to think I am just in sin. Maybe I am, but I do submit these things to the Lord, I do seek His will for my life, but in these areas I am not changing in any way. I feel stubbornly that the ways I feel about those things are not "œbad". God forgive me if I am wrong, but I feel like God understands if I work after church while humming "œHow great thou art", and wishing Sunday morning services wouldn´t feel so regimented.

Fire away"¦..(flinching)


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2005)

Adam,
What you have described are indeed _struggles_. The flesh constantly is doing battle with the spirit. 

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You are in the midst of shedding many erroneous ideas, i.e. you are truly refoming! 

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 


My suggestion is to continue reading good refomed material on the subjects. Wrestle with them; challenge them, for Christs sake, and yours. The same way God has revealed the doctrines of grace to you, He will continue to bring about the changes he has ordained for the sons of God. You are a work in progress.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Edited on 4-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Augusta (Apr 17, 2005)

Adam, coming from a charismatic background where we nearly rocked out during worship and clapped and raised hands, it was a culture shock for me initially. We went to a reformed church one or two Sundays and then we didn't go again for about two years. We thought we would hold our beliefs but we rationalized that we wouldn't uproot our kids from their Sunday school and friends and stay at our church. 

We did this for two years until as we matured in the reformed faith at home by listening to sermons etc. it actually got to where we were just nauseated by our church and we just couldn't go there another Sunday. 

Finally we made the switch and it was like a breath of fresh air. Now we just love our church and the people there and I just could never go to a pentecostal church with a band in front again. There is just no reverence at all and it is just sickening to me now. The teaching is just empty. 

Maybe you are moving too fast. It takes time to undo all of that baggage you were fed for so long. I know it did me and I am still working out some stuff. But I bet if you went to a pentencostal church again you would be really put off and sickened.  Maybe you should do it a couple of Sundays? 

[Edited on 4-17-2005 by Augusta]


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## blhowes (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> -The Sabbath; I´ve believed for years that we are not required to esteem one day better than another and to do so was legalism. Now to shift into doing nothing on Sunday´s including watching sports or playing a game is hard for me, very hard. I feel no conviction at all for doing something on a Sunday. I do not feel as if I am sinning if I watch TV, play a game, or even go to work so long as it is after services.


Why have you tried to change what you do on Sunday? Is it because its the 'reformed way', or because you're convinced from the scriptures that that's what God wants?



> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> -Order of worship; I feel terrible saying this, but the order of worship is so regimented that I feel bored in services. I feel as if I have been programmed in some way. Stand, sit, read, sing, group read, etc. Don´t get me wrong, the confessions are GREAT, but the whole "œorder" of things and them having to occur at certain times in the exact same way is such a struggle for me. By struggle, I mean having any heartfelt sincerity behind them. I feel like I am reading from cue cards with little meaning or emotion behind it.


I think if you embrace the reformed teachings regarding observance of the Sabbath, that this 'problem' would be solved. I'm speaking specifically about the mindset that Sunday is an opportunity to worship with God, and we should be preparing our hearts for that worship as we see Sunday approaching. I've found that, if I've prepared my heart properly beforehand, that the structure of the service becomes less important since I'm focused more on the content of that structure. If they want to read the scriptures at 10:15 every week, fine. If they change one week and read it at 10:35, that's fine too.



> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> -The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.


I'm with you here. I love singing hymns. In reformed circles, even on this board, there are differences of opinion whether hymns should be sung, or exclusively Psalms.


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## turmeric (Apr 17, 2005)

Some of this might be solved by trying a Reformed Baptist setting, not sure. I grew up Pentecostal and find liturgy refreshing, but that's not true for everyone.


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## believer (Apr 17, 2005)

Praying fervently for the will of God in your life, Adam


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## Craig (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> In Worship:
> 
> Spirit without truth is chaos.
> ...



I would also add...spirit w/out Truth is not the Spirit.
truth without spirit isn't of the Spirit...er something.

I will pray for you Adam. But also remember, the order of worship has significance. Understand it better and use it to your advantage. I've come to truly love hearing God's Law before our prayer of confession. By singing Psalms, I have surprisingly found many hymns to be lacking.

The other thing that I've found helpful is viewing my former way of worship as destructive. Those days were bondage for me...I don't cherish the way I used to worship, though God was faithful to me through those idols of mine (I do mean idols).

Sometimes the most frustrating, and more often comforting, thing is the fact that God's means are so ordinary.

[Edited on 4-17-2005 by Craig]


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## Puddleglum (Apr 17, 2005)

Adam, 
Even among those who have been brought up Calvinistic, there are still some of these struggles! So don't feel too bad about having them - at least you've got a good excuse! 

I've always been used to having an order of service, but I remember feeling somewhat freaked out when I started to get the impression that all churches (at least OPCs) had the same exact order of service, and sang the same exact hymns, and that it was all totally the same, and that everything was done exactly like the textbook example, so to speak . . . (I've realized that that's not totally true, btw). 

I'm with you on the singing! The singing at my church can seem pretty pathetic! And we've got about 200 people in the am service, about half of that in the evening. 
"Showers of Blessing" and "When the Roll is Called up Yonder" are in our hymnbook. I don't remember when we've last sung them, though. 
In my experience . . . up-beat hymns can be ruined by a congregation that can't sing, and dull hymns can be quite uplifting and sung with strength and vigor (that was the case at my last church . . . we would sing ancient hymns, all in common meter to ancient tunes - but they could SING, and so they didn't seem dull. Here, its the opposite - even upbeat hymns can seem like they're dragging on at times). 
I try to tell myself to have patience. What's especially difficult for me is when I'm the pianist, and we're signing a song that's written in 2 2 time, and people insist on singing it in 4 4 time (i.e. twice as slow as its written). Try as I might, I tend to lose people by the end of the first line, and have to slow down to the normal, really slow tempo. :-( Some songs deserve to be sung up-beat! (Like Hallelujah, Praise Jehovah)

Anyways . . . I guess I don't have any answers, so I'll go back to lurking!


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 17, 2005)

Adam, I can totally sympathize with you, coming from the charasmatic scene myself. I had some major factors to work through. One, I was raised in it so to me, that style of worship was "Christianity." It took quite a while to break through that mentality. Second, I also has a vested interest since I was a worship leader. Yes, I sat up there with my guitar and sang, manipulating peoples emotions through song, to make them feel like they had an experience of the Spirit. It took about 2 years to finally break away from that. I finally became so sick of the superficiality. Yet I struggled with the "dry" worship of the Reformed scene too. for me, the transition was the preaching. I loved the preaching in Reformed churches. As I began to grow, I began to see the beauty in the Reformed worship tradition, especially the singing of psalms. I also better understood the idea of elder led worship, rather than any Jo Shmo who gets to lead worship, no matter how long he's been there, just because he's "gifted." I still struggle with the unenthustiastic singing. But I think that is more a congregational thing. I've been attending a church here who sings the same Trinity Hymnal songs, and loves them. They sing with great enthusiasm. Just keep working through it brohter. And no matter what any one else does, or doesn't do, sing your heart out, pray earnestly along with the pastor, and listen intently on the preaching. You will see the beauty of it eventually 

[Edited on 4-17-2005 by puritansailor]


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 18, 2005)

Hey Adam!



> -The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.
> 
> I know church isn´t for me, that it is for God and the worship of Him. I know the reformed style is based completely on the word of God. But therein lies my heartache! If that is true, why do I dislike the things I´ve mentioned so? Am I that sinful? Am I that controlled by self, pride, or "œwhat I want"? I don´t feel like I am. I love the Lord and His ways. I desire to be part of a fellowship that practices what it preaches, puts Christ first in word and DEED, and holds to the truths of God´s word without basing it on emotionalism or feelings, yet still I struggle with the things I´ve mentioned and feel like I am going to forever.



Music was created by God and _designed_ to stir the emotions. Every style of music isn't applicable on Sunday morning. Likewise, styles of music do go a long way in helping to set the mood and attitude of the people worshipping. *There is no way around this*. This is why, for example, on the thread over on The Highway on the RPW, one person mentioned they like more 'worshipful instruments' like pipe organs. What makes a pipe organ more worshipful than a guitar ?

A lot of what I've observed among the reformed are _cultural_ preferences. There's nothing in scripture that says the _style_ in which we sing our music should be dull and lifeless. God is a God of emotions and 'realness'. Of course you should want to shout HALLELUJAH! at the top of your lungs to the God who saved you from your sins and had mercy on you! Why wouldn't you ? Likewise, you may just be in complete awe of His presence, overwhelmed by the depth and riches of His mercy upon you and can *nothing* but stand still and quietly and deeply contemplate these things.

Both responses are correct. 

I don't believe music is neutral by any means. Neither is culture. But much of what we know as 'reformed worship' reflects the european culture it was developed in, including the manner in which we sing (where's the command to never rock back and forth or raise your hands ?) and how the music should sound (style). The Westminster divines truly had a heart for God and sought to make sure their worship was biblical. No one can deny this. However, some of the practices, particular styles and choices of music, etc... that are 'done' today are cultural and traditional preferences which I believe we have a degree of liberty on, according to scripture. Some reformed realize this, and thus you have a large degree of disagreement on exactly _what_ (including style of music) the content of the RPW should contain (hence, the EP vs Hymnody arguments).

I think that many of the reformed have a *long* way to come on this issue, in my opinion. The fear (and rightly so) is that most 'modern' music can be a distraction from worship and that certain music can and does inspire certain physical/emotional responses from the person. This is true. 

_Any_ music can be a distraction away from focusing on God. A person with a classical music background may himself focusing on the chordal structure of the music, the genius of the composer and the 'beauty' of the music, etc... and never on God. Likewise, someone from a soft-rock background may have huge issues with a church like Sovereign Grace Ministries, because the music reminds him too much of his past and makes him unable to focus on God properly, despite the rich and explicitly reformed content of the music at all SGM churches. 

I like Mark Dever's approach. The music is fairly simple - a piano and three singers (praise team) to lead. They sing standard hymns and some CWM songs. On the 3rd or 4th verses at times, they have the music drop out and you just hear all 300-400 members of his congregation singing praises to God at the top of their lungs till the roof feels like it will blow off. Typically, you won't find most folks raising their hands, though.  I remember when C.J. Mahaney preached there one day, I could pick out members of his church who were visiting from members of Pastor Dever's church pretty easily 

But C.J.'s folks have been _trained_ not to focus on externals and to remember that it is God who looks at the heart, not the external. So I don't believe that CHBC having just a piano, and not a full band was a 'distraction' to them....at least not the ones I saw. 

Pick up John Frame's book _Worship in Spirit and In Truth_ and his book _Contemporary Worship Music: A Biblical Defense_. Most of the EP advocates loathe Frame's viewpoint. But he makes many good points that most EP and other RPW advocates who only advocate one style and manner of singing music don't answer in their replies.

Bob Kauflin from SGM does a SPECTACULAR job of discussing the purpose of music in worship. Take a listen at this sermon - piano playing examples included during the sermon. 

Bob Kauflin from Sovereign Grace Ministries & Covenant Life Church
http://www.covlife.org/audio/2004_10_03.mp3



> I feel stubbornly that the ways I feel about those things are not "œbad". God forgive me if I am wrong, but I feel like God understands if I work after church while humming "œHow great thou art", and wishing Sunday morning services wouldn´t feel so regimented.



When informed by the scriptures, "....to go against conscience is neither right nor safe."


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## ChristianasJourney (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> -The Sabbath; I´ve believed for years that we are not required to esteem one day better than another and to do so was legalism. Now to shift into doing nothing on Sunday´s including watching sports or playing a game is hard for me, very hard.



Here is the funny thing about legalisim. I suspect that we have all accused others of being legalistic, just like I suspect that we have all been accused of being legalistic, which causes me to conclude that "Legalisim" by today's definition is anyone more conservative than ones self. 

I bring this up now, because a lot of the points you mention are protocals and procedures, and can be viewed by other as legalistic. However, it is the heart that turns the words into a sacrifice. It is the heart that will bring glory to God. Without the action of our hearts it all becomes legalisim, if your heart is engaged (which has nothing to do with the outside activity around you, but rather with God's Spirit in you crying out for Him) than you will find the passion and thrill you're looking for. 

(And to add, because I just couldn't help it--if your heart is in the right place it's impossible to be "too conservative", because you are doing it for the glory of God, not for pride (which is probably what legalisim is based on) or selfish motives. Keep in mind 1 Cor. 8 paying special attention to verse 13.)


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## Me Died Blue (Apr 18, 2005)

Adam, I can largely relate as well, being raised in the Arminian-Dispensational-Pentecostal-Contemporary-Fundamentalist church of the Assemblies of God all my life up until this school year, and the radical differences in the Presbyterian services were and still are a definite shift for me, and I am still going through the process of training my mind and heart to respond in joy to God's truth for its own sake without "desiring" or "waiting for" the external influences to "boost" my emotions. Same with the Sabbath - I'm Scripturally convinced in an intellectual sense of the Reformed view on it being a day set apart unto the Lord, but I must admit my heart is not fully with my mind yet, as you likewise said. 

Continued prayer for God to open our eyes, continued meditation His Word, continued reading of sound Reformed authors to help us further understand it, and continual helpful discussion with believers at church and here are all things in which I try to stay regularly engaged to continue to move my heart further in the direction of His Word to which my mind has submitted.

One book that I keep going back to for helpful thoughts on Reformed spirituality is Horton's _In the Face of God_, the last couple chapters of which I have found especially helpful after one has read the whole book. I recall you saying you had read that book - what did you think of it as a whole or of certain themes or points within it? I have also heard that Beeke's _Puritan Reformed Spirituality_ is excellent, although I have not yet gotten around to reading much of my copy. And as a P.S., you might want to ask Fred for some input before spending $$$ on the Frame books on worship.


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_ And as a P.S., you might want to ask Fred for some input before spending $$$ on the Frame books on worship.



It's easy to buy books you agree with. 

Always have theology on your shelves that you disagree with. 

(and Frame's book is less than $10)


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 18, 2005)

For those who may be interested and want some more theology on their bookshelves,  Professor Frame´s book and other writings as well as the many criticisms of his worship views over the years are surveyed in an article in the forthcoming _The Confessional Presbyterian_ (see http://www.cpjournal.com for subscription information). The article, or series of articles really, also contains a pretty devastating critique of R. J. Gore´s doctrinal dissertation written against the Regulative Principle, by Dr. David C. Lachman. Gore would later rework and revise (and condense) this dissertation into his book _Covenantal Worship._ The article is called _Reframing Presbyterian Worship: A Critical Survey of the Worship Views of John M. Frame and R. J. Gore_ by By Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D. and David C. Lachman, Ph.D.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 18, 2005)

My wife and I struggle with the very same things Adam, as suggested by my confused signature. Next Sunday I'm preaching to a church on the subject of Worship. The church I am preaching at has lost all semblance of worship. Where does one begin? Obviously I can't present the gamut of RWP doctrine but I need to get them to understand that WE are not the ones who define worship.

"Fun" has become the ultimate filter of acceptable worship these days and I believe it's because folks have completely lost the image of God's identity. So that's where I will begin. Behold the God whose train fills the temple, who ordains all things, who makes alive and kills, who speaks and the mountains tremble, whose word goes forth and His people rejoice and tremble.

I believe that true worship is not something we DO, but true worship is a RESPONSE that is elicited by the majesty and supreme WORTH of the almighty creator.

Now how do I expand on those concepts, to a people who show up to have fun in a service that has been truncated to 45 minutes to accommodate the arrival of a second congregation who rents their church - the Free Will Baptist Church?


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> For those who may be interested and want some more theology on their bookshelves,  Professor Frame´s book and other writings as well as the many criticisms of his worship views over the years are surveyed in an article in the forthcoming _The Confessional Presbyterian_ (see http://www.cpjournal.com for subscription information). The article, or series of articles really, also contains a pretty devastating critique of R. J. Gore´s doctrinal dissertation written against the Regulative Principle, by Dr. David C. Lachman. Gore would later rework and revise (and condense) this dissertation into his book _Covenantal Worship._ The article is called _Reframing Presbyterian Worship: A Critical Survey of the Worship Views of John M. Frame and R. J. Gore_ by By Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D. and David C. Lachman, Ph.D.



Ooooh Lig's a contributing editor! This one sounds like it's worth getting! Thanks Chris! One of my next paychecks.....


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 18, 2005)

Kerry,
Yes; Ligon Duncan is on board as a contributing editor and he gratiously put up with my pestering him (with his busy schedule) for his book review contribution.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

Adam, 

Truly, you are not alone in your experience. The flesh wrestles against the spirit daily, but remember the devil tempts us all the more the closer we get to the altar of God. Who among us cannot say that we have been distracted or drowsy or thought sinful thoughts in the presence of God whilst at public worship? Can any Christian say I worship God perfectly in my heart and mind as well as according to the Biblical ordinances of worship? Can any Christian say I have kept the Lord's Day holy as I ought? I cannot say these things. But I pray the Lord would mortify my sinful heart and cause me to burn with love for Him expressed not only in outward obedience to his commandments but with all my inward being. 

Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. (Psalm 19.14)


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 18, 2005)

Wow, thanks guys! At first I had thought I wasn't going to get many replies. It makes sense to me that "reforming" is what I am going through and that is encouraging I suppose. I hadn't considered that the enemy would come on stronger the closer I came to the truth, I had this thought in my head that worship should come easy and I should find it simple to do.

In a way, and maybe this is wrong, but I would almost like the confession of sin to be silent. Here one could honestly reflect and renounce to the Lord their sin rather than having something written, that while good, seems very automated and forced. I suppose it doesn't help that our little body reads 4 words stanza's pausing after every fourth word as if there was a comma. 

I feel like it is going to take forever for me to learn these songs! I mumble along every week thinking "what is this?" On the rare ocasion that a song is sung to a tune I know I am so excited. It's like "Oh I know this tune!" But this is very rare. I actually do not look forward to the singing because I know I am just going to be standing there feeling stupid.

Our church has an order of service, but there are two pages we jump back and forth from and at times it's confusing. I know the order now for the most part, but I am shuffeling between my bible and those 2 pages all of the time. Then on ocasion I need to point to my wife where we are and on what paper.

Lastly, something I haven't mentioned, since services are seen as a must they are few. In other words, the idea not to burdon the body with required services causes us to have few services. I terribly miss Sunday evening, Monday evening, and Wednesday evening services!

PS- I do not miss pentecostal or charismatic services. I actually speak out against them as often as I can. What I miss are hymns and what seemed like more heartfelt prayers and announcements. So much at my church now seems automated. I hate saying these things because I love the people at our church, I am just surprised at how the order seems to be.


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## Arch2k (Apr 18, 2005)

Adam,

If your church is as ordered/reformed etc. in its worship as you lead me to believe, I am envious! Be thankful brother! Coming from a charismatic background myself, I long for more order, hymns and Psalms, less-emotional etc, etc. When I look back to my former days, I see how people's emotions deceived them, I see how they sang songs not primarily to worship God, but to entertain themselves, that the objective truth of God's Word was comprimised often times by the "inward" feelings etc. Not to say that all emotions are bad, but I definately think that mindset is more toward what worship can do for us, rather than what we can do for God.

Don't get me wrong, there is some good worship in our church, but we are in a PCA that is probably more in line with John Piper than historic reformed worship.

To some degree, I think we all have similar struggles. Through God's grace may we be constantly reforming to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.


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## AdamM (Apr 21, 2005)

Greetings Adam,

Are there other PCA, OPC or URCNA churches within reasonable driving distance? If so, I would encourage you to check them out and maybe see if your struggle is with Reformation worship as a whole or just your current church's practice. As you know, there will be differences even between conservative PCA/OPC churches in regard to worship practice. It does sounds like your current church tends toward a high church liturgical format and it may be that you would be better off with a simpler worship style in another church. 

The key will be balance. I know you don't want to give up too early just because the worship might initially strike you as too formal, but I do think there comes a time when after trying to work it out to the best of your ability and much prayer if you find yourself still struggling and stagnating that you may be better off seeking a different church within your theological grid.


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## Augusta (Apr 21, 2005)

Adam, I hear ya on the learning hymns. I am the same way. I just mumble along and finally by the last lines of the hymn I am finally getting the tune down and its over. Then I know that I probably won't hear that one again for a while so I will have forgotten it by the next time it comes up.




I don't know that anyone ever learns them all which is why we have hymnals. Well, they learn the tunes. I am also getting better at music reading. Any kind of musical training seems to help tremendously.

Ya know what scared me though? We occasionally sing songs not in the hymnal like "Our God is an Awesome God" and stuff but we sing it through once. Well last Sunday we sang "Shine Jesus Shine"



and it sort of felt really weird. I was like the weaker sister who was having charismatic flash backs. Thankfully nobody jumped a pew or started dancing. 

[Edited on 4-21-2005 by Augusta]


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm still learning those hymns and psalms too. I get frustrated when I get the tune stuck in my head that I finally remember, but then I can't remember the words! I need to buy some Trinity Hymnals...


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## Augusta (Apr 21, 2005)

This website really helps. I am going to get some more of the tunes down at home. You can also remember lyrics this way but I find the tune is the hardest then you can just read along. At church that is. When I really like one I come home and try to learn it all.


Cyber Hymnal

Chart of Trinity Hymnal Hymns

This second one has tunes and meter for different songs.

[Edited on 4-22-2005 by Augusta]


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## Puddleglum (Apr 21, 2005)

Adam,
I'm with you on the mid-week meetings! Some Reformed churches have them, others don't. I often miss the mid-week prayer meeting & Bible study (from a previous church). 
Oh, and I can understand the hymn thing, too! Different churches have different hymns that they tend to sing - even if they have the same hymnbook! And then you've also got to deal with tune (and sometimes wording) changes on the hymns you do know. I've been at my current church for a couple of years, and I still sometimes think "this is the WRONG tune", and have problems following along because what I hear in my head is not what I'm meant to be singing! Keep trying . . . 

Traci,
You go to the Lynnwood OPC (Vosteen's church), right? (I'm a member of the Kent OPC, and have been up to Lynnwood a few times). I'm kinda surprised you sang "Shine Jesus Shine" - I guess I've always associated it with youth-group type meetings. Interesting . . .


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## Augusta (Apr 22, 2005)

Hi Jessica, I didn't realize you were here in WA. Cool, yes Peter Vosteen is our pastor. One cool thing about our church is that it is also a Seminary so we can audit the evening classes and come on Monday evenings. There is another free conference coming up too. We just had one on called "Should Left Behind Theology be Left Behind?" It was a great conference. There is one coming up May 11-13. Here is a synopsis:

This biennial symposium on Biblical Theology is intended to focus on the exegetical and redemptive historical implications of the centrality of Christ in all of the scriptures. Pastors and lay persons will be challenged and nurtured both academically and spiritually.

It sounds really good. Here is a link below for more info. 

http://www.kerux.com/


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## Puddleglum (Apr 22, 2005)

Yeah, I was interested in that Left Behind conference, but I had a huge paper due the next Monday and several tests to study for that weekend, so I ended up not going! I hadn't heard of the latest conference yet (our church normally "plugs" your events pretty hard!) . . . the website does look interesting!


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## Augusta (Apr 22, 2005)

Jessica, I missed the conference too but I got it all on disc and just finished them. I have the notes too. I can lend them to you after the hubby gets a chance at them. They were really good. I learned alot. If you want your own set I am sure you can still get them. My end times teaching was messed up from my old church.  Visit our church again and I would like to say hi.


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## Reed (Apr 25, 2005)

Our little church has a small photocopied booklet of "Worship and Praise Songs" -- a little more contemporary for those who like that style -- the content of the praise songs is carefully checked, however -- no 7/11 songs allowed...

We use the red Trinity hymnal and sing all of them - including When the Roll is called up yonder -- you should hear my 3 year old daughter sing it :>

Reed


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## nonconformist (Apr 30, 2005)

> -The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.


 adam right right now i am stuck in a charismatic church until november i do enjoy the worship.BUT the lack of any solid doctrine and the UNBELIEVABLE FEMENISTIC WIMPY Jesus AT THE DOOR BEGGING YOU TO OPEN ANTILAW UNBALANCED ANTIFULLCOUNCIL OF GOD PLEASE ACCEPT ME SO I CAN MAKE YOU HAPPY PREACHING all 10 minutes of it is just about got me ready to pull every last hair out of my head.i think i would almost sacrifice my right arm for a hardcore fierce reformed sermon.hey do they still exist?sorry if i sound slightly frustrated:bigsmile:


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## turmeric (Apr 30, 2005)

[/quote] adam right right now i am stuck in a charismatic church until november i do enjoy the worship.BUT the lack of any solid doctrine and the UNBELIEVABLE FEMENISTIC WIMPY Jesus AT THE DOOR BEGGING YOU TO OPEN ANTILAW UNBALANCED ANTIFULLCOUNCIL OF GOD PLEASE ACCEPT ME SO I CAN MAKE YOU HAPPY PREACHING all 10 minutes of it is just about got me ready to pull every last hair out of my head.i think i would almost sacrifice my right arm for a hardcore fierce reformed sermon.hey do they still exist?sorry if i sound slightly frustrated:bigsmile: [/quote]

Get outta there before they turn you into Higher Life Hubert or worse...a Warren Wonk!


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## Augusta (Apr 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 
> 
> > -The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.
> ...



Listen online. 

www.sermonaudio.com

Try these two. In that order. 

God's Hell

Christ Put On


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## nonconformist (Apr 30, 2005)

i feel like a junkie that just had a fix.thanks brother


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## Robin (May 1, 2005)

Hey Chet,

Here's some more great sermons!!! There's enough there to keep you afloat for quite a while...enjoy!

http://www.christreformed.org/real/index.shtml?main

(Note: see the transcripts too....)



Robin


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## Puritanhead (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> -Order of worship; I feel terrible saying this, but the order of worship is so regimented that I feel bored in services. I feel as if I have been programmed in some way. Stand, sit, read, sing, group read, etc. Don´t get me wrong, the confessions are GREAT, but the whole "œorder" of things and them having to occur at certain times in the exact same way is such a struggle for me.



When I was at Liberty, our esteemed Chancellor Jerry Falwell used to say "...if the dead in Christ would rise first than the Presbyterians would be the first to go." At first, I would kind of get perturbed, because I saw it as just another potshot directed at Calvinists... On the other hand, I kind of found it kind of funny-- reflecting on similar experiences of monotony in some Presbyterian services. The confession readings get downright sterile and sometimes the congregations have about as much enthusiasm citing the creeds as that government teacher from _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_. Personally, I think confessional creeds could be better applied in Sunday School services, but I see the value in them. It's bad too, when the doxology becomes sterile-- we really need to reflect on what we recite-- 


Well, I really didn't help you... just offering comic relief. Don't get me wrong... I've heard some powerful and sound sermons from Presbyterian pulpits. Some of my best jokes are about Baptists...
:bigsmile:

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## ReformedWretch (May 1, 2005)

My pastor is WONDERFUL and I loive his sermons, He is passionate and driven by the word. It's the songs and over all "style" that bores me at times. It's not nearly as bad as I am making it sound here, I just feel guilty for not enjoying it ALL.


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## Me Died Blue (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 
> 
> > -The songs; Don´t get me wrong, I do not want contemporary "œGod is my girlfriend" songs in church! But oh how I miss the hymns I grew up with. The songs in church are all sung monotone and with what feels to me, with little emotion and heart. I so miss "œShowers of blessing" and "œWhen the role is called up yonder" and other songs like that. I find it very difficult to believe that God is upset when we sing those hymns in services. I definitely do not feel like it would be a sin to do so.
> ...



Hey Chet,

You can hear many of the sermons preached at Riveroaks by the Senior and Associate pastors as well as some guests - click on the link in my signature, and go to the "Sermons" section. I'd like to hear some of your thoughts if you get around to listening to some of them.

Also, Fred Greco, one of our Super Administrators on the Board, is currently filling the pulpit for Tchula PCA in Tchula, MS, and has some excellent sermons to hear at his site, TulipFaith.com in the audio section.

God bless,


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## BlackCalvinist (May 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> My pastor is WONDERFUL and I loive his sermons, He is passionate and driven by the word. It's the songs and over all "style" that bores me at times. It's not nearly as bad as I am making it sound here, I just feel guilty for not enjoying it ALL.



Well, there's always option #2.....

Go find a few good praise and worship songs that are doctrinally sound (hint: http://sovereigngraceministries.org/music/ ) and sing at home.

Sure, it'll feel like a wet blanket and wet socks when you get to church.....

and of course.... listen to the sermon by Bob Kauflin on Music and Worship that I posted above. It will change your position and have you think for a moment on how you really 'feel' about your churches' music... and it might help you to appreciate it (your church's style and the music).

(yes, them charismatic folks actually do have something you can learn from...)


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## nonconformist (May 2, 2005)

thanks robin and chris for the resources chris i will let you know just give me a little time. if anyone else has any superaggressive hell fire and brimstone preaching send me a pm


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## nonconformist (May 8, 2005)

> christopher i have been listening to ford williams on predestination,he is solid,excellent!!! great recommendation,thanks


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## nonconformist (May 9, 2005)

> Also, Fred Greco, one of our Super Administrators on the Board, is currently filling the pulpit for Tchula PCA in Tchula, MS, and has some excellent sermons to hear at his site, TulipFaith.com in the audio section.


 just listened to his sermon on "the hardend heart" excellent


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