# Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary



## wsw201 (Jun 18, 2003)

I was reading in the paper this morning that a Paige Patterson is expected to be named president of SWBTS in Fort Worth. They say he is a conservative Baptist. Does this mean he is a Reformed Baptist or just Arminian Lite? And if he is reformed, what does this mean for the Seminary?


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## Drdad (Jun 18, 2003)

Paige is the current president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in North Carolina. He is conservative but he is not Reformed. 

SWBTS is currently under conservative control so there will be little change by way of doctrine. He will probably change other things about the Seminary.

Derick


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## fredtgreco (Jun 18, 2003)

Does anyone remember who the SBC guy was that bemoaned the Founders' Calvinistic influence in the SBC?


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## wsw201 (Jun 18, 2003)

Thanks for the info Drdad. 

Say, are there any Reformed Baptist Seminaries out there? I know WTS-CA is working with a group to use their campus.


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## fredtgreco (Jun 18, 2003)

There was a good one run out of Trinity by Al Martin, but it went by the wayside. If I wanted to find out the best place for an RB to go, I would call either Martin or Chantry or Waldron.


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## Drdad (Jun 18, 2003)

[b:580f9aa264]WSW[/b:580f9aa264]

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY is reformed. Albert Mohler is a good man with a good foundation theologically. 

[b:580f9aa264]Fred[/b:580f9aa264]

Take your pick. Adrianne Rogers is often saying slanderous things to that effect. Paige Patterson is not a friend of the Founders either. Yet, I know people who know him personally and say his bark is much louder than his bite... that in class he is very respectful of reformed belief. I do not know him personally so I must rely on 2nd hand information.

Derick


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## doulosChristou (Jun 18, 2003)

[i:ce1aad92b9]&quot;Certain of the traditional five points of Calvinism, specifically limited atonement and irresistible grace, seemed always to lack sufficient Scriptural evidence, and indeed, to be unable to explain much Scriptural evidence to the contrary.&quot;[/i:ce1aad92b9] - Paige Patterson, 2001, explaining why he considered and ultimately rejected Calvinism. 

wsw201 asks: &quot;Say, are there any Reformed Baptist Seminaries out there?&quot;

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY (the flagship seminary of the SBC) has been Reformed ever since Al Mohler took over and kicked out all the Arminians. 

Toronto Baptist Seminary is also Reformed.

dC


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## Christopher (Jun 18, 2003)

[quote:dcc5c249e1][i:dcc5c249e1]Originally posted by Drdad[/i:dcc5c249e1]
[b:dcc5c249e1]WSW[/b:dcc5c249e1]

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY is reformed. Albert Mohler is a good man with a good foundation theologically. 

[b:dcc5c249e1]Fred[/b:dcc5c249e1]

Take your pick. Adrianne Rogers is often saying slanderous things to that effect. Paige Patterson is not a friend of the Founders either. Yet, I know people who know him personally and say his bark is much louder than his bite... that in class he is very respectful of reformed belief. I do not know him personally so I must rely on 2nd hand information.

Derick [/quote:dcc5c249e1]

SOUTHERN SEMINARY ID NOT REFORMED! I am a grad from that seminary (May 2002). Even by the baptist standard it is not reformed. Thereare many prof.s who are not even Calvinists. Al Mohler is a Calvinist but that is it! He also headed up the comittee for the Lousiville Billy Graham Crusade a few years ago. Sure there are some Baptists there who are &quot;Reformed&quot; (by Baptist standards) but the Seminary is NOT Reformed.

With that said I will now say this: It is an excellent school!

[Edited on 6-18-2003 by Christopher]


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## Drdad (Jun 18, 2003)

Christopher,

I know there are some prof's who are not reformed like Leon Poddles and others. A close friend of mine is getting his Ph.D. there and got hist M-Div from there. He grants me that there are left-overs still there but he mentions many who are reformed teaching at Southern. I know Tom Nettles is strongly reformed and there are many there who are reformed.

Granted, you have first hand experience and I am coming from 2nd hand experience. But the number of prof's from Southern who contribute to the Founder's Movement are many.

Derick


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## pastorway (Jun 18, 2003)

Southern with Mohler is not reformed, it is calvinistic and reforming southern baptist.

Paige Patterson was president at the Criswell College while I attended. I know him well. He is not reformed or a calvinist, but he is also not an arminian. More like a 3 pointer who fears hyper-calvinism and will not stand for anyone who refuses to witness and preach the gospel at every opportunity!

He is a true scholar and a godly man. The stuff about him and the founders has been blown out of proportion by liberals who want to take back over the SBC or at least cause division by pitting the conservatives against one another.

There are not many men at all on the planet that I would put in the league of Patterson and Mohler for the work they do and the stands they take. Patterson will be an asset to SWTBS if he comes. He is one of the best evanglists I have ever heard, with a true burden to preach the gospel and real enthusiasm about missions. In fact, he is one of the greatest preachers I have ever heard preach.

Anyone with an opportunity to hear Patterson preach will be blessed and never forget the occassion.

Phillip


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## SteelYankee (Jun 18, 2003)

*Pastorway is Right about Paige Patterson*

I graduated from SEBTS under Patterson and was also on staff at church he joined while there (Mt. Vernon Baptist in Raleigh, NC). I know him well and he is a great man. Pastoway got him exactly right. He is the most irenic man I know with those he differs with theological arguments, as long as you are not heretical. He is perhaps the smartest man with whom I've ever conversed. I have the utmost respect for Paige Patterson.


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## Rev. G (Jun 18, 2003)

Here are quotes from the man who will be named the president of my beloved seminary, a seminary founded by a &quot;Calvinist&quot; -- B. H. Carroll -- , next week.


[quote:b8102d1fa5]
I do not believe the Founders group is as forthcoming as it should be when it calls itself the Founders group, because the suggestion here is that all Southern Baptists were Calvinists at the inception of the convention. Nothing could be further from the truth. There have always been two strong tributaries flowing into the Southern Baptist river, one of them Charleston, one of them Sandy Creek. Now, Charleston is heavily Calvinistic, Sandy Creek is highly revivalist. Most of the people doing the writing were Calvinists. I admit that. But most of the people growing the denomination were Sandy Creekers who were out winning people to Christ. So both things are there and to suppose that the Convention was founded only by Calvinists is a total misrepresentation.
[/quote:b8102d1fa5]



[quote:b8102d1fa5]
Now, I don't care what any Calvinist has to say about it. Calvinism, as a doctrinal commitment, has always had the effect of being a drag, to put it the best way, kindest way, a drag on missions and evangelism. 

All you have to do is prove me wrong, but you have to do it in some other way than citing Spurgeon because he's been cited often enough and it is not really impressive to cite Spurgeon and one or two others and say we've proved you wrong. No, look at the whole. Look at what has happened across the centuries. Wherever Calvinism takes a strong root, evangelism begins to suffer and world missions begin to suffer. And it is understandable why. Here is a man who believes that God has created this number of people over here to be saved and, because he believes in irresistible grace, they're going to get saved no matter what. So what is the necessity of my going to them? Well, in my mind of course I treat it this way: I say, Well, I've got to go to them because God's told me to go to them. So the fact that I'm a Calvinist doesn't make any difference really. God has told me to do it, so I've got to go to them. But let me tell you what. In your heart, if you don't think it's going to make any difference to begin with because what's done is done in eternity past, you [aren't] going to go. That's just the truth of the matter. Very seldom do people go. The fact that there are some exceptions only underscores the rule. 
[/quote:b8102d1fa5]


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## Rev. G (Jun 19, 2003)

Don't you mean BaptistLiar.com? 

Talk about misrepresentation!


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## lkjohnson (Jun 19, 2003)

Actually, the Baptist Liar is better known as the Baptist Standard. I went to college with the Editor in Chief and he hasn't changed a bit. Since he took over, the Baptist Standard has become an opinion page rather than a reporting tool.


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## wsw201 (Jun 19, 2003)

Interesting quotes Rev G. See you this Saturday :smile:


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## Christopher (Jun 19, 2003)

[quote:4aadd66190][i:4aadd66190]Originally posted by Drdad[/i:4aadd66190]
Christopher,

I know there are some prof's who are not reformed like Leon Poddles and others. A close friend of mine is getting his Ph.D. there and got hist M-Div from there. He grants me that there are left-overs still there but he mentions many who are reformed teaching at Southern. I know Tom Nettles is strongly reformed and there are many there who are reformed.

Granted, you have first hand experience and I am coming from 2nd hand experience. But the number of prof's from Southern who contribute to the Founder's Movement are many.

Derick [/quote:4aadd66190]

yes. it is the closest thing to reformed southern baptist sem. you will find. it is getting better all of the time. in my opinion it one of the greatest seems in the country. more power to the Founders!


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## pastorway (Jun 19, 2003)

When I was an SBC pastor we referred to the &quot;Baptist Standard&quot; as the &quot;Baptists Slandered&quot; ! 

[b:f26bdcba3e]We need to have a Texas Puritan Board Fellowship before the summer is over!!![/b:f26bdcba3e]

Phillip


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## lkjohnson (Jun 19, 2003)

[quote:01b36d0eae]
We need to have a Texas Puritan Board Fellowship before the summer is over!!! 
[/quote:01b36d0eae]

Absolutely! Your place or mine?


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## Rev. G (Jun 19, 2003)

My friends and I still call it &quot;The Baptist Slandered.&quot; :wr30:


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## Rev. G (Jun 19, 2003)

BTW, I was not referring to any individual as the &quot;Baptist Liar.&quot; Just wanted to make that clear. Just a play on words (&quot;Baptist Fire&quot.


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## Rev. G (Jun 19, 2003)

[quote:2175f8c5cd]
We need to have a Texas Puritan Board Fellowship before the summer is over!!! 
[/quote:2175f8c5cd]

Who's coming? We've got folks from Ft. Worth, Dallas, Round Rock, Denton, Texarkana and.....??? 

Just fellas, or fellas and wives? 

What's on the agenda?


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## wsw201 (Jun 24, 2003)

Count me in on a Texas Puritan Board get together


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## Rev. G (Jun 25, 2003)

*It's official.*

It is now official. Paige Patterson is the new president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He begins his term on August 1st.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 25, 2003)

DMan,
You are most definitely on the right side of the border!

Go Hogs Go!

Lawrence


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## pastorway (Jun 25, 2003)

Texas Puritan Fellowship

If you are in Texas or nearby...within driving distance of Dallas....

email me and let us see what we can put together later this summer before class starts up in the fall!!!!

Seriously.

[email protected]


Phillip


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## smellingsalts (Oct 21, 2004)

I am thinking about attending Southwestern Bapt. , Midwestern Bapt. in Kansas City or Bethel Seminary in Minnesota. How good are the classes at Southwestern?


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## puritanpilgrim (Oct 25, 2004)

Go to southern. It is the best deal for your money.


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## matt01 (Oct 25, 2004)

Paul,

I realize that your question was specifically about Southern... but having sat under three graduates of Bethel I can safely say "Go anywhere but there." It is a liberal school to put it nicely.


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## lkjohnson (Oct 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by smellingsalts_
> I am thinking about attending Southwestern Bapt. , Midwestern Bapt. in Kansas City or Bethel Seminary in Minnesota. How good are the classes at Southwestern?



While I must admit that things have improved some since I graduated from Southwestern in 1986, I would not recommend it. It is academically weak, theologically nebulous, and politically manipulated. Almost any other school would be a better choice.


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## smellingsalts (Oct 26, 2004)

What Seminary would be good then? I am looking to get a job in the Financial aid department and work full-time and do seminary part-time. Looking at various websites, Bethel has a decent program for full-time workers and that is why their on my list, plus I have family in Minnesota too.


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## Ranger (Nov 15, 2004)

I respectfully disagree with pastor Lance. I go to Southwestern right now, so I have a better view of what's going on inside. Even if the trustees and Paige Patterson are wrapped up in politics, it doesn't flow into the lives or education of the students. Admittedly, Southwestern isn't an academic beacon, nor does it desire to be. Then again, it is no DTS either where the teachers are more concerned with writing their next book instead of teaching their class. 

As far as the claims of being theologically nebulous, I guess pastor Lance is right if you mean that they teach all sides of the issues. There is no doubt where most of the professors fall, and it is always to the conservative side. The vast majority of my professors are full 5 point Calvinists, and many that are not are 4 pointers who deny Limited Atonement through the union with Christ argument that many claim is found in Calvin's work.

Southwestern has never desired to be a stuffy, academic atmosphere, but has always been dedicated first and foremost to missions and evangelism. That is why over half of the world's Baptist missionaries are from Southwestern. That's their passion, and means that they will never be an Oxford or Princeton, where academics reign supreme. It's just secondary at SWBTS.

Anyways, I hope this helps your pursuit. Also, if you live in Texas, consider Westminster over in Dallas. It's very, very small, but will give you a great education. I'm probably doing my ThM through the main WTS campus.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Nov 15, 2004)

I read a quote from Paige where he stated that election refers to God forseeing who would choose him.


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## Ranger (Nov 18, 2004)

That's one of the reasons why so few students/faculty that like Paige. There really is a rift forming in the SBC between the more Reformed and the Arminians.


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## puritanpilgrim (Dec 8, 2004)

you are welcome to listen to his sermons here 

http://www.nobts.edu/Chapel/Archives/Spring2004.html


He spoke at my school last semester. I disagree with him, but I do have respect for him because of he influence in the conservative resurgence in the SBC. Without his work, Southern would not be the Southern it is today.

[Edited on 8-12-2004 by puritanpilgrim]


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## Ivan (Dec 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by smellingsalts_
> What Seminary would be good then? I am looking to get a job in the Financial aid department and work full-time and do seminary part-time. Looking at various websites, Bethel has a decent program for full-time workers and that is why their on my list, plus I have family in Minnesota too.



I heard that Bethel is into Open Theism! 

Southern is a very good seminary. Dr. Mohler is as Reformed as you are going to get as a Southern Baptist. 

Although I graduated from SWBTS, I don't know much about it now, but I'd say it's better than a lot of seminaries, but not Reformed.


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