# The sinner's prayer



## Pergamum

I meet people that actually do not know how to pray. I lead them in the sinner's prayer. I explain to them how to pray. 

I tell them that if one knocks then the Lord will open the door to them. 

I encourage them to start a life of prayer and study and to repent and believe and ask the Lord to allow them to do this if they cannot.

I give them Christ's invitation to sinners, "Come unto me all that labor..."


If someone tells me that they want to accept Christ, I rejoice instead of telling them that this is such a wrong concept. I explain what it means to "accept Christ and receive him as Lord..." Sometimes I explain that we accept him only because he first loved us, sometimes I don't, but just speak of the way that God has provided in His Word for all sinners who desire salvation to be saved.



However, when rubbing elbows with the "Truly Reformed" I hear many of them show bitter disdain for the sinner's prayer.


What do you all think? 

Should we explain to people how to pray? When we do will or won't this resemble many "sinners prayers" when we do?

And if we are to disdain the sinner's prayer, what do we do with people that desire to know the path of salvation? 

What is wrong with the sinner's prayer?


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## Semper Fidelis

I don't know if one has to be "Truly Reformed" to have a _Biblical_ problem with the Sinner's prayer.

Why do you believe in immersion Pergamum?


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## Sonoftheday

I think that the sinner's prayer can be used in a proper way. However it is quite often missused and because of that many reformed folk dislike it. 

I think it is fine to use in a one-on-one counselling situation with an individual who does not know how to pray as long as it is used to teach them to repent, and not done as the means by which God saves them.

Its totally wrong to use it as the youth evangelists at the camps I went to in highschool did. Theyd stand in front of the large crowd and say repeat after me all who want to be saved, now everyone who prayed that prayer you are saved and dont let the devil tell you otherwise. Now anyone who questions thier salvation because the lifestyle they live is the devil and they wont hear otherwise.


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## Pergamum

RICH:

So what is the Biblical problem with leading others in prayer and teaching them how to pray for salvation, in the manner of the following:


"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


And then telling them further truths about prayer and encouraging them to pray themseles to God. 

Note that this does not give them assurance THAT they are ALREADY saved. But if one prays and seeks the Lord with their whole heart, then there is an assurance that they will be saved.




What's that have to do with immersion?


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> RICH:
> 
> So what is the Biblical problem with leading others in prayer and teaching them how to pray for salvation, in the manner of the following:
> 
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> 
> And then telling them further truths about prayer and encouraging them to pray themseles to God.
> 
> Note that this does not give them assurance THAT they are ALREADY saved. But if one prays and seeks the Lord with their whole heart, then there is an assurance that they will be saved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's that have to do with immersion?



First, answer my question: Why do Baptists believe immersion is the appropriate mode for baptism?


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## Pergamum

I think I asked the questions first...what's wrong with the prayer?


But...if you must: The greek hints at dipping and the baptism accounts in Acts hint at much water rather than little water.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> So what is the Biblical problem with leading others in prayer and teaching them how to pray for salvation,



The problem is the false idea which is being conveyed to the sinner's mind that the prayer is "for salvation." One would like to know something more about the situation. E.g., what has been said in order to encourage the sinner to join in such a prayer? or what is said after the prayer in terms of reassuring the sinner? It is usually the false assurance which is offered in relation to praying "for salvation" that causes all the problems.


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> I think I asked the questions first...what's wrong with the prayer?
> 
> 
> But...if you must: The greek hints at dipping and the baptism accounts in Acts hint at much water rather than little water.


Oh, so you're saying that you are looking to Scripture for an example of how baptism occurred in the New Testament?

You apply that principle to your sacramentology - so much so that you don't believe you could responsibly serve in a Church that didn't baptize according to your convictions - but then you don't seem to have a problem with a soteriological approach that has no Biblical example nor didactic principle undergirding it.

What I don't understand is why you have to insist that everything that a Reformed person might disagree with is because they're just stodgy and mean and don't have a Biblical reason for something. Yet, you insist something is Biblical and that anyone who disagrees with you is stodgy and mean.

Why aren't you the imperialistic one with your convictions that the Sinner's prayer _must_ be acceptable?


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## Presbyterian Deacon

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the Biblical problem with leading others in prayer and teaching them how to pray for salvation,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the false idea which is being conveyed to the sinner's mind that the prayer is "for salvation." One would like to know something more about the situation. E.g., what has been said in order to encourage the sinner to join in such a prayer? or what is said after the prayer in terms of reassuring the sinner? It is usually the false assurance which is offered in relation to praying "for salvation" that causes all the problems.
Click to expand...



Right. I agree whole-heartedly! I don't see a problem in leading someone in prayer, that God might be pleased to have mercy on their soul, but so much of the "four spiritual laws" and other modern approaches to evangelism become little more than a "formula for salvation."

It's the "A-B-C, 1-2-3, now you're a Christian just like me" mentality that leads to so much of the false assurance, and what the puritans used to call "gospel-hardened hearts" of our time.


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## panta dokimazete

I've always found this to be effective:

Romans 10:8-10 

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


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## aleksanderpolo

In many cases, the sinner's prayer becomes the work a sinner performs to save himself. I think that's the biggest problem. Similar to walking the isle, or raising their hands when the evangelist call.


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## Pergamum

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the Biblical problem with leading others in prayer and teaching them how to pray for salvation,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the false idea which is being conveyed to the sinner's mind that the prayer is "for salvation." One would like to know something more about the situation. E.g., what has been said in order to encourage the sinner to join in such a prayer? or what is said after the prayer in terms of reassuring the sinner? It is usually the false assurance which is offered in relation to praying "for salvation" that causes all the problems.
Click to expand...



Okay, so it sounds like you object to the abuses that occur when people are taught how to pray. 

I too do not like these abuses. The sinner's prayer is not an act that saves, it is a prayer for salvation. Even the Purtians spoke of "closing with Christ."


There need be no altar call or mourner's bench associated with this.


I gave my practice above. Instead of making up supposed abuses, use my example above and tell me if I am doing anything wrong.


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## Zenas

I abhor the idea of the sinner's prayer for a couple of reasons.

For one, it's not Scriptural at all. 

Granting that though, it has been horribly misused and has been a tool to lead untold numbers of souls into the mouth of Hell with an attitude of complacency because they thought that the Holy God would excuse what we are in exchange for a mere "sinner's prayer" throughout a lifetime of God-hating and rebellion. 

Repent and believe, not accept and pray.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> Okay, so it sounds like you object to the abuses that occur when people are taught how to pray.
> 
> I too do not like these abuses. The sinner's prayer is not an act that saves, it is a prayer for salvation. Even the Purtians spoke of "closing with Christ."



I don't object to prayer as a means of grace; but as soon as one associates the prayer with "closing with Christ" they have fallen into the very error that Puritan expression was designed to protect against -- formalism. "Closing with Christ" is the personal taking of Christ to be one's prophet, priest, and king, and can in no sense be equated with the repetition of a form of words.


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## Herald

Besides having no didactic support in scripture, I simply detest the sinners prayer. That said, I do believe prayer can play a helpful and encouraging part of presenting the gospel and after calling on the individual to repent and believe. First, the person sharing the gospel should pray. Pray that God will reveal himself to the individual you are sharing with. Ask God to give them understanding of the scriptures and to display to them his mercy and grace. Encourage them to begin a lifetime of prayer immediately. Basically I would instruct them and encouraging them to go the Father in prayer in the name of the Son. At no time would I ask them to verbalize their commitment to Christ in any way that could be misconstrued as a sinners prayer. I do not want hope placed in a prayer. Even if you provide a detailed disclaimer that saying this prayer in no way saves, some individuals will still view efficacy in the prayer itself. If they give a positive affirmation that they believe the gospel then I would do my utmost to get them into church so they can feast upon God through his word, sacrament, prayer and fellowship.


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## Zenas

I echo the above. People place their hope in the prayer, not in Christ. Rather than looking to the Cross as the time of their salvation, they mark it with when they said the "sinner's prayer".

Moreover, I would argue that it is not important whether or not we claim to know Christ. What's important is that Christ knows us. When He seperates the sheep form the goats, the goats are going to be wondering what in the world their dear old pal is doing. I pray I'm not among them.


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## Pergamum

SemperFideles said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I asked the questions first...what's wrong with the prayer?
> 
> 
> But...if you must: The greek hints at dipping and the baptism accounts in Acts hint at much water rather than little water.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you're saying that you are looking to Scripture for an example of how baptism occurred in the New Testament?
> 
> You apply that principle to your sacramentology - so much so that you don't believe you could responsibly serve in a Church that didn't baptize according to your convictions - but then you don't seem to have a problem with a soteriological approach that has no Biblical example nor didactic principle undergirding it.
> 
> What I don't understand is why you have to insist that everything that a Reformed person might disagree with is because they're just stodgy and mean and don't have a Biblical reason for something. Yet, you insist something is Biblical and that anyone who disagrees with you is stodgy and mean.
> 
> Why aren't you the imperialistic one with your convictions that the Sinner's prayer _must_ be acceptable?
Click to expand...




RICH:


Peter told his hearers to repent. Obviously this repentance will take the shape of either a mental or a verbal repentance.

This is not a act that guarantees salvation, this is a plea for salvation.





My Biblical basis is:


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation ..." (2 Corinthians 7:10)

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord." (Acts 3:19)

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5)




And the example of the pharisee and the Publican where he pleads, "Oh Lord have mercy on me a sinner..." Sounds like a prayer of a sinner asking for salvation to me.


Of course, we all would oppose a formulaic approach where a person is assured of salvation after mouthing words, but we do have the duty to teach sinners how to pray.

Instead of knocking down straw men, take my example I have given above of my own practice and evaluate that. 


More info for you to evaluate: Also, when I teach how to pray, I point to Christ's instructions on how to pray (his model prayer) and the prayer of this sinner in Luke, "Oh Lord have mercy on me a sinner.." as examples of how to pray. 


If the person still does not know how to pray or is afraid to try, I give them suggestions as to the elements of prayer: thanksgiving, to God, petition to God, and pleading to God for true faith and true repentance...etc. If they want an example I give them examples and I pray in front of them.


It seems that to give the Gospel must entail inviting one to the Gospel and when one desires to come they must be shown the way in greater detail.


Actually, I am shocked at the harshness of the responses here...



Imperialistic? Are you trying to give off heat or light here? Remember, your the one carrying a gun on foreign soil where the locals don't like you. I merely opened up this post with my own practice and asked for thoughts.


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## Mushroom

I think, Perg, there is a distinction between the formula prayer recited at some large youth conference and the leading of an individual who by all appearances is sincere in desiring to know what to say when praying. The situation you describe does not sound errant to me.


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> Actually, I am shocked at the harshness of the responses here...
> 
> Imperialistic? Are you trying to give off heat or light here? Remember, your the one carrying a gun on foreign soil where the locals don't like you. I merely opened up this post with my own practice and asked for thoughts.



Am I to assume this was intended as a compliment to the members here:



Pergamum said:


> However, when rubbing elbows with the "Truly Reformed" I hear many of them show bitter disdain for the sinner's prayer.



You habitually throw out terms like that as a byword.

I like you. What I don't like is that you insult the community I keep here unnecessarily.


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## panta dokimazete

Allright, fellers - we are all brothers, here - let's remember to give one another grace and seek purity *and* peace - textual discussions sometime lack nuance and dilute the Christ-like charity we would use with one another in person.

Trust me on this...


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## Zenas

I think a rousing chorus of kum-baya is in order.


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## Semper Fidelis

panta dokimazete said:


> Allright, fellers - we are all brothers, here - let's remember to give one another grace - textual discussions sometime lack nuance and dilute the Christ-like charity we would use with one another in person.
> 
> Trust me on this...



This is not a matter of lacking grace in my response. I'm challenging Pergamum with the presupposition of his question.

I want folks to reflect on the _reasons_ that Confessing Christians believe a certain thing rather than assuming that their objections to it have a basis in disdain or even merely human tradition. Now, it is possible that the reason is rooted in this fact but none of the responses so far have argued merely from the Confession. Note that all objections are based on Biblical convictions and concern that the sinner hear the correct Gospel (which is my own).

Now, we may disagree on Biblical principles but there's not usually a group of people sitting in a corner folding their arms on this board refusing to read the Word of God.

I, and others, see no pattern or warrant for what is common approach of the sinner's prayer to "lead a person to Christ". That doesn't make me an un-Biblical Christian just because my "truly Reformed" convictions in this matter differ from the person making the original assertion that it is simply a matter of disdain.


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## Zenas

I do simply disdain the practice, but I think I do so for Biblical reasons.


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## Pilgrim

SemperFideles said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am shocked at the harshness of the responses here...
> 
> Imperialistic? Are you trying to give off heat or light here? Remember, your the one carrying a gun on foreign soil where the locals don't like you. I merely opened up this post with my own practice and asked for thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I to assume this was intended as a compliment to the members here:
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, when rubbing elbows with the "Truly Reformed" I hear many of them show bitter disdain for the sinner's prayer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You habitually throw out terms like that as a byword.
> 
> I like you. What I don't like is that you insult the community I keep here unnecessarily.
Click to expand...


Pergy throws off more heat than half of the board combined. His m.o. over the past few months seems to be to slam Reformed practice any way he can and then cut the conversation short when questions are put to him that he can't or won't answer. Instead of seeking to understand, his typical reaction is to vent his spleen at anyone who differs with him. I asked him 4 or 5 questions in the recent thread on confessionalism and he didn't seriously answer any of them. My first thought was that it was a complete waste of my time to have responded, but hopefully it was helpful to others on the list or some of the many lurkers.


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## Pergamum

OKay, you call me imperialistic...I throw stuff at you too. Maybe Panta is right...let's try this question again without the tones and attitudes....I can delete the imperialism bit I wrote if you do the same (of course, you got the big guns as the admin, so you can delete both if desired).


Many of those I run across do self identity as "Truly Reformed" and they do show displeasure for all forms of sinner's prayers. The replies I got from you and Mr. Winzer are much along those same lines. 


Here is the question again:

If we are to teach an unsaved sinner who is seeking the Lord (if you buy into that term even) how to pray, how similar or how distant will your sample prayer be from many examples of the "sinner's prayer" - like the one referenced on the pCA web site on a recent thread.

If displeaure is shown at these sample prayers, which are often clumped into the category of "A sinner's prayer" then what do we put in its place if we are to tell people to repent and believe and this repentance and belief is done either mentally or (after Romans 10) done even verbally in prayer.



Again, for some reason, people assumed that I was advocating a formula, or giving false assurance that this prayer actually procures salvation as an act itself (though we are to be praying for our salvation). Another valid question if, why did the respondees assume this right out of the shoot instead of dealing with the example of my own practices that I gave. This certainly gives off the impression of a "knee-jerk" response, dos it not?


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## larryjf

I really dislike the idea of telling somebody what to pray.

If they are being drawn to Christ then they would probably be drawn to their knees in utter repentance. And i don't know how "real" the repentance would be if they were fed their lines.

If my pastor told me exactly what to say to apologize to my wife it wouldn't mean anything to her...but if it came from my heart she would accept it.


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## Herald

Pergamum said:


> OKay, you call me imperialistic...I throw stuff at you too. Maybe Panta is right...let's try this question again without the tones and attitudes....I can delete the imperialism bit I wrote if you do the same (of course, you got the big guns as the admin, so you can delete both if desired).
> 
> 
> Many of those I run across do self identity as "Truly Reformed" and they do show displeasure for all forms of sinner's prayers. The replies I got from you and Mr. Winzer are much along those same lines.
> 
> 
> Here is the question again:
> 
> If we are to teach an unsaved sinner who is seeking the Lord (if you buy into that term even) how to pray, how similar or how distant will your sample prayer be from many examples of the "sinner's prayer" - like the one referenced on the pCA web site on a recent thread.
> 
> If displeaure is shown at these sample prayers, which are often clumped into the category of "A sinner's prayer" then what do we put in its place if we are to tell people to repent and believe and this repentance and belief is done either mentally or (after Romans 10) done even verbally in prayer.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, for some reason, people assumed that I was advocating a formula, or giving false assurance that this prayer actually procures salvation as an act itself (though we are to be praying for our salvation). Another valid question if, why did the respondees assume this right out of the shoot instead of dealing with the example of my own practices that I gave. This certainly gives off the impression of a "knee-jerk" response, dos it not?



Brother,

FYI as a fellow Baptist I appreciate your front line work. If you go back and read my first post in this thread I agree we should teach new believers to pray. I don't believe in a sinners prayer model, but we should teach them to pray. I believe it is YOU, the one who shared the gospel that should model that prayer. A new believer is never too "new" to learn how to pray. Why not consider the model presented in the Lord's prayer?


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## VictorBravo

Rich, check PM.


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## Pilgrim

Where do we find even one example in the Scriptures of someone praying something like the sinners prayer? 

In my humble opinion the only way you can find the modern idea of a "sinner's prayer" in passages like Rom. 10 is by reading current practice into the text. It says nothing about prayer. I think it points more to something like what we see with the Ethiopian Eunuch.


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## panta dokimazete

Rich said:


> This is not a matter of lacking grace in my response.



I think there is an opportunity for grace from both sides.

Someone may abhor the "sinner's prayer", but you cannot say that it is never a means the Lord uses to call His elect. I think folk get hung up on the whole "accept" deal, but look below:

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 

13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 

Just as the the natural man cannot _accept_ the things taught by the Spirit (the Gospel), the elect will _accept_ the Gospel and Jesus as Savior and Lord as truth.

Now, as at least a "Strongly Reformed" person, I personally would eschew the "Sinner's Prayer" in general as it is traditionally presented or at least caveat it with - "Just saying this prayer does not make you saved - your assurance will come from growing in Christ, honoring Him as your Lord and giving Him glory through a fruitful life."

But is leading someone in a "sinner's prayer" _de facto_ wrong or sinful? I'd say context and intent are everything...


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## Kevin

Hello, my name is Kevin. (Hello, Kevin)

I have said the sinners prayer! (gasp)

I have encouraged others to say the sinners prayer! (we love you, Kevin!)


OK. I don't really like the "sinners prayer". And, I really, really don't like the theology of the "sinners prayer". But... I LOVE the concern for lost souls that most people who promote the sinners prayer seem to have.

A story. 

About 10 or 12 years ago I had an unsaved friend over for the evening. Also present was an other friend who was the (lay) youth pastor at the local SBC church. My pagan friend had grown up in the SBC & had attended an SBC college.

For several months I had tried to get my pagan(sbc) friend to admit that he was "lost". He was aware that God would not allow him into heaven because he had taught Sunday School. He knew that his fornication was an insult to Gods Holiness. He often said, "If I was a Christian I could not do x, y, z "

*long story short* At some point in the evening my pagan friend said "I am not a Christian". I thought "Great headway! Admission of lost condition!" My other friend asked, "but have you ever said 'the sinners prayer'? Well then you have nothing to worry about! You are on your way to heaven!"

Fast forward several years. The youth pastor friend has accepted the reformed faith and today is chairman or the diaconate in a PCA church. He has also apologised for "screwing up" the gospel presentation to my other friend. 

I don't really blame him. If all that was reguired to make peace with God was to say a certain sequence of words in the correct order...then who would not do as he did?

But if God requires true repentance? 

That is why I have a "love-hate" relationship with the "sinners prayer".


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## Pergamum

Pilgrim said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am shocked at the harshness of the responses here...
> 
> Imperialistic? Are you trying to give off heat or light here? Remember, your the one carrying a gun on foreign soil where the locals don't like you. I merely opened up this post with my own practice and asked for thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I to assume this was intended as a compliment to the members here:
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, when rubbing elbows with the "Truly Reformed" I hear many of them show bitter disdain for the sinner's prayer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You habitually throw out terms like that as a byword.
> 
> I like you [Pergamum]. What I don't like is that you insult the community I keep here unnecessarily.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pergy throws off more heat than half of the board combined. His m.o. over the past few months seems to be to slam Reformed practice any way he can and then cut the conversation short when questions are put to him that he can't or won't answer. Instead of seeking to understand, his typical reaction is to vent his spleen at anyone who differs with him. I asked him 4 or 5 questions in the recent thread on confessionalism and he didn't seriously answer any of them. My first thought was that it was a complete waste of my time to have responded, but hopefully it was helpful to others on the list or some of the many lurkers.
Click to expand...




By the use of the term "Truly Reformed" I am not labelling another group but put this in quotes because I have had people self-identify as "truly Reformed" - as opposed to being not truly reformed I guess. On the same occasions, I have been reminded that a "Reformed Baptist" is not really "reformed" at all.

So, I am using the terminology that I have been giving and not labelling someone against their will. 

And one characteristic of this group is that they do not like examples of prayers, such as the PCA one given on a previous thread and most such examples are categorized under the label as "sinner's prayers". 


So, I began this thread to explore why this is and what sort of examples do we give to people when they desire to learn about how to pray, especially when they are unsaved and want to approach God for the first time.


As far as questions on confessionalism I am sorry if I did not answer each and every question you posed to me. I can go back and try if you would like. I had no idea I snubbed you.




As far disturbing the little community we have here on the PB, let me say a few words:

We are not just "reformed" but we are always reforming. Therefore, we should be examining and critiquing our own practices quite often. There are many things merely assumed and to disturb these assumptions is often unwelcome to people. Therefore, if someone posts something out of line with these assumptions, there is often a circle the wagons approach.

Some of these issues that I have taken a lot of flak on recently are:

(1) challenging people when they speak of all arminians as heretics or spreaders of a vile false Gospel. 

I find this very distateful. We show little charity to others and then when I critique parts of the reformed world - often in too broad of a brush stroke - this gets labelled as unfair, even when everything outside of our little world gets all manner of uncharitableness hurled at them.


(2) The belief that says that the civil magistrate is to get involved in ecclesiastical matters and enforce orthodoxy (i.e. some strains of theonomy). This is a constant area of dispute on this board, but not just for me.

(3) reformed mission practices that stress the particulars of reformed ecclesiology such that is there is little room for local growth or even local circumstances of worship.



It appears that these issues has caused a lot of friction this past month. It does appear that to be in the "in crowd" sometimes we ry to say "AMEN" louder than all of our peers. On threads against arminians, many people try to emphasize just how wrong they are...and the next person tries to top that. 

I think it might be productive to see where we are wrong, what practices we could improve, where we don't give some of these practices a fair shake and where we assume things instead of taking all things from Scripture.

There is an underlying "culture" and "mood" to this board. And I do not always fit it. I think that this might be a healthy thing.



Finally, whether I "slam" reformed practices or not and how harshly I do this or not is not cause to circle the wagons against me but give me biblical justifications. Maybe there are many errors in reformed practice...perhaps we should learn from these errors instead of silencing critics. This is, in part, the purpose of the PB, to discuss these issues.


As far as this thread goes, what is there that is helpful or hurtful about the Reformed tradition in its many shades (from "Barely Reformed" to "Truly Reformed") when it practices teaching people how to pray?


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## Herald

panta dokimazete said:


> Rich said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a matter of lacking grace in my response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is an opportunity for grace from both sides.
> 
> Someone may abhor the "sinner's prayer", but you cannot say that it is never a means the Lord uses to call His elect. I think folk get hung up on the whole "accept" deal, but look below:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:13-15
> 
> 13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
> 
> 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
> 
> Just as the the natural man cannot _accept_ the things taught by the Spirit (the Gospel), the elect will _accept_ the Gospel and Jesus as Savior and Lord as truth.
> 
> Now, as at least a "Strongly Reformed" person, I personally would eschew the "Sinner's Prayer" in general as it is traditionally presented or at least caveat it with - "Just saying this prayer does not make you saved - your assurance will come from growing in Christ, honoring Him as your Lord and giving Him glory through a fruitful life."
> 
> But is leading someone in the sinner's prayer _de facto_ wrong or sinful? I'd say context and intent are everything...
Click to expand...


JD,

I appreciate your quoting 1 Corinthians 2, but I don't see where that is a positive command to recite a sinners prayer. In fact, I can't find a single place in scripture where that type of command (or model) is presented. I understand the caveat that you would add to take away the idea that there is something salvific in the prayer itself. But people being what they are, disclaimers or caveats fade. I believe Acts presents what is required of an individual when presented with the gospel:



> *Acts 16:31 * 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."



I would call on the individual to believe. Specifically I would call on them to repent and believe. Would I pray with them afterwards? Certainly! I would pray for their encouragement and for the grace of God to be with them.


----------



## panta dokimazete

I think the "Truly Reformed" are concerned that the "sinner's prayer" seems like a tragic and abhorrent first step towards an unnecessarily imprecise walk in the Lord, thus delaying, or eliminating, the opportunity that a true believer can dwell more fully in Reformed truth.


----------



## panta dokimazete

BiC said:


> I don't see where that is a positive command to recite a sinners prayer.



...and never intended as a proof for it. 

I like the "formula" in Romans 10:8-10, but who can argue with "Believe and Repent!"?


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## Herald

panta dokimazete said:


> I think the "Truly Reformed" are concerned that the "sinner's prayer" seems like a tragic and abhorrent first step towards an unnecessarily imprecise walk in the Lord, thus extending, or eliminating, the opportunity that a true believer can dwell more fully in Reformed truth.



JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.

In my humble opinion of course.


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## moral necessity

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I would call on the individual to believe. Specifically I would call on them to repent and believe. Would I pray with them afterwards? Certainly! I would pray for their encouragement and for the grace of God to be with them.



Right. It's like Moses telling the people to look to the snake on the pole. It's not a matter of asking or praying, but of turning in faith to look. They can speak to God about it all they want, and ask for him to help their unbelief. I certainly would encourage conversation with the Lord regarding this and other concerns they might have.

Blessings!


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## Poimen

Unless I missed it, no one has actually cited the text of the sinner's prayer. Is there a set form?


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## turmeric

Let's see if I can say this kindly...it does seem, Pergy, that you have some deep-seated "thing" for want of a better word, about Presbyterians and non-Baptistic species of Calvinists, that they don't really get out there and try to evangelize, that they're too doctrinaire, etc. I'm guessing (only a guess) that your feelings got hurt during one of those "Are Baptists Really Reformed" threads. My personal take is that we all try to live the Gospel and share it with whoever shows interest. Granted, most of us aren't doing that in a foreign country at this point.

My problem with the PCA website, (and I'm a member of the PCA.) is that the whole page characterized the problem of sin as one of not being in relationship, which is kind of like saying that dead people can't talk to people. They can't, of course, but that's hardly the most pressing problem. I felt like the prayer said "Lord, help me stop sinning and let me into Heaven." without mentioning (in the prayer) Jesus Christ at all, let alone closing with Him. Also, they said if a person prayed this, that person could know he/she was going to heaven.

Please don't assume we do this just to be mean or to think we're better. I do it because I spent twenty years of my life thinking I was a Christian when I wasn't. Thank God He straightened me out. I hate to talk like an Arminian, but I don't want to see the look of horror on someone's face when he finds out (too late) that he's not a believer.


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## panta dokimazete

BaptistInCrisis said:


> JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.
> 
> In my humble opinion of course.





Brother, you are going to be a sho' 'nuff Puritan before it's all over! 

My point was exactly that - Reformed truth = Christ's truth (or Biblical truth) in the eyes of the "TR", whereas others might demur to the implied assertion. (...not me, though! )


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## Herald

panta dokimazete said:


> BaptistInCrisis said:
> 
> 
> 
> JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.
> 
> In my humble opinion of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, you are going to be a sho' 'nuff Puritan before it's all over!
> 
> My point was exactly that - Reformed truth = Christ's truth (or Biblical truth) in the eyes of the "TR", whereas others might demur to the implied assertion. (...not me, though! )
Click to expand...


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## panta dokimazete




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## Pilgrim

turmeric said:


> I hate to talk like an Arminian, but I don't want to see the look of horror on someone's face when he finds out (too late) that he's not a believer.



There's nothing Arminian at all about that concern. I fear that multitudes are going to split hell wide open who thought they were going to heaven since they prayed the "sinners prayer" and some "soul winner" told them they were saved.


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## panta dokimazete

Matthew 7:21-23 
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum,

My apologies for inadvertently mentioning that which should not be mentioned. 


Kevin said:


> Hello, my name is Kevin. (Hello, Kevin)
> 
> I have said the sinners prayer! (gasp)
> 
> I have encouraged others to say the sinners prayer! (we love you, Kevin!)
> 
> OK. I don't really like the "sinners prayer". And, I really, really don't like the theology of the "sinners prayer". But... I LOVE the concern for lost souls that most people who promote the sinners prayer seem to have.
> 
> A story.
> 
> About 10 or 12 years ago I had an unsaved friend over for the evening. Also present was an other friend who was the (lay) youth pastor at the local SBC church. My pagan friend had grown up in the SBC & had attended an SBC college.
> 
> For several months I had tried to get my pagan(sbc) friend to admit that he was "lost". He was aware that God would not allow him into heaven because he had taught Sunday School. He knew that his fornication was an insult to Gods Holiness. He often said, "If I was a Christian I could not do x, y, z "
> 
> *long story short* At some point in the evening my pagan friend said "I am not a Christian". I thought "Great headway! Admission of lost condition!" My other friend asked, "but have you ever said 'the sinners prayer'? Well then you have nothing to worry about! You are on your way to heaven!"
> 
> Fast forward several years. The youth pastor friend has accepted the reformed faith and today is chairman or the diaconate in a PCA church. He has also apologised for "screwing up" the gospel presentation to my other friend.
> 
> I don't really blame him. If all that was reguired to make peace with God was to say a certain sequence of words in the correct order...then who would not do as he did?
> 
> But if God requires true repentance?
> 
> That is why I have a "love-hate" relationship with the "sinners prayer".



Kevin,

I _love_ the zeal and concern that many people have that might otherwise not have all their facts straight.

Some always confuse a condemnation of the messenger and the message. Not so for me. I do think we need to help people who are otherwise zealous be zealous about the right things.

I know I sometimes joke about some things I used to see when I was charismatic like the Royal Rangers who gave points toward advancement for every body they won for Jesus. My humor could be misunderstood as disdain but sometimes humor is also used as a way to take the edge off of something you're really sad about too. Unfortunately, it becomes less of an issue of merely having sorrow for erring messages the more that theology is rooted in downright rebellion.



> Hebrews 5
> 1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
> 
> 2*Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.*


Notice the limit that the Scriptures themselves place on the proper abode of compassion for error: for the ignorant or those that are out of the way but are not being outright rebellious in that. I obviously have more of a problem with a Dave Hunt type who would use and defend the sinner's prayer in open repudiation of the nature of man and the Gospel.

My point is that I'm not the type to throw out babies and bathwater but just because I love babies doesn't mean that every time I want to throw out their bathwater means I didn't consider them babies.

I sort of hear a common thing here that states: "Well God can use anything so what's our concern...."

We have a recent member on the PB who used to be a JW minister. I used to be Roman Catholic. God can use _anything_. In fact, I remember this one lady that used to belong to my Church that used to frustrate me to no end. She concluded that Reformed people should not dislike the Roman Catholic Church so much because she learned so much of the Bible from them. Well, yeah, me too. I wasn't biblically ignorant when I was converted from the Roman Catholic Church but it doesn't mean that every means shouldn't be taken captive. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean I'm going to suggest to parents that they raise their kids in Roman Catholicism hoping that a chain of Providence leads them to the Reformed faith.

Why can't we all just agree, first, on what the _ordinary_ means of Grace are for salvation?

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but you mentioned some things that I wanted to make sure folks know I understand it's not all a "us v. them" world.

I have a brother in my local Church that mentions that there are things he used to believe and, therefore, do that he believed were honoring to God that he is now ashamed of. That's my experience as well. I've always been a fairly zealous person and had a concern for the life and growth of the Church but my ideas about what those things used to be were very wrong. I used to be a Worship Team leader, for instance, that knew just how to craft an entire service to bring people to a place where they "...just wanted to worship the Lord...."

I still have a concern and desire for the lost but that concern has been deepened and my desires have been re-shaped by the Word. My conception of what really converts the soul makes it hard for me to accept a measure that I can just simply conclude that God will work around. I believe for me to do that would be to tempt God and say: "I know you said to convert the soul with these means but this seems to get results too. If I'm being a bit sloppy then you'll just use whatever means you can anyway...."


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## matthew11v25

Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray. 

Perg said:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.

Sounds modeled after scripture to me. 

While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.


----------



## Davidius




----------



## Pergamum

I think I am starting to see the basic reasons why I have clashed with many this past month...


I have been dialoguing with several that fall squarely into the "Truly Reformed" camp and their abiding concerns are precision. I think I have discovered the broad difference betwen BR and TR and I now can label myself as "broadly reformed". So that where the TRs see precision, I see rigidity, where I see freedom they see a loosey gooseyness on my part.

It does appear that much of these clashes occur when dealing in issues where TRs and BRs diagree. For instance, my TR friends' solutions for every doctrinal error is more of the WCF and more catechism. This corresponds to Rich's answers to me on a previous thread. So, I am seeing some trends in responses. Whee I rejected confessionalism as a cure-all, this struck the more TR oriented people as wanting to base my theology on the air. There seems a fundamental difference in going about issues from these two camps I am discovering.

So, here this past month I have been exploring these issues where BRs and TRs disagree most widely. And these issues seem to have the greatest potential at "fiery-ness" because in these issues we are, sort of, fighting over the very definition of reformed. 

For instance, my friends keep telling me that I am not "reformed" enough and when I ask them what they mean the answer is usually one of greater precision in ecclesiology, even when I think the Scripture warrants more freedom, etc.


So, I am profiting from these discussions, even if a lot of heat occurs.



So, again, does anyone (divorcing one's self of the boogeymen that the term "sinner's prayer conures up) have any problems with my stated practice of leading people in prayer and teaching them how to pray?


Turmeric: I understand your concerns. Can you see anything wrong with what I mentioned as myown practices though?




Also, again:

How are we to teach people to pray. Can we teach lost people to pray for their salvation. Of course, we are not to teach any act as saving, but only faith...but how are we to teach people to pray since with the mouth confession is made and in the heart on believes unto salvation?


And, if we give people model prayers to pray (such as Jesus' or the publican's in LUke) or one of our own, then how closely would this resemble some sinner's prayers:


A sample prayer:


Lord, I want to be saved. I am a sinner. Please grant me true faith and true repentnace and help me to trust in you truly. Please have mercy onme a sinner..."


Is it okay to teach people to plead this as they are seeking the Lord?




Finally, I love you guys! I mean that. Every important discussion should have some intensity. And every one of our assumed truths should be challenged. What is it thatis both good and bad when we give others examples of how to pray. And, am I doing anything wrong?


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## Pilgrim

There isn't any problem with teaching people to pray. Indeed the Lord himself did it! Others use the A.C.T.S. model in teaching prayer--Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication (did this originate with the Navigators?) The popular _Valley of Vision_ published by the Banner of Truth Trust is a collection of Puritan prayers. Writers like Phillip Doddridge included prayers in books like _The Rise and Progress of Religion in the Soul_. 

The biggest issue I have with the practice is that typically the evangelist or preacher will immediately assure the person who prayed that he has been saved. "If you just prayed that prayer...." I would also take issue if someone were to say that it was necessary to pray something akin to the "sinners prayer" in order to be saved.


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## PilgrimPastor

larryjf said:


> I really dislike the idea of telling somebody what to pray.
> 
> If they are being drawn to Christ then they would probably be drawn to their knees in utter repentance. And i don't know how "real" the repentance would be if they were fed their lines.
> 
> If my pastor told me exactly what to say to apologize to my wife it wouldn't mean anything to her...but if it came from my heart she would accept it.



This is exactly my biggest trouble with formula "sinners prayers." genuine repentance is reflective of the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the teaching of a formula prayer.

I actually know of a Pastor who ends every service by asking everyone in the congregation to prayer with him, he doesn't call the "sinners prayer" but that is exactly what it is. It is as though his parishioners are supposed to be coming to church every Sunday morning to "get saved" all over again from the sins they have committed that week.

What has happened to discipleship when it merely consists of feeling guilty and praying a prayer that if it indeed saves, then why must I pray it again just as I did last Sunday? Have I been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and repented unto salvation or have I merely been made to feel guilty by the words of a foolish man and asked to pray a formula prayer? 

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." (2 Corinthians 7:10 NKJV)

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1 NKJV)


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## Iconoclast

*post1 vs post 17*

Perg,
There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
vs. post 17\
We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.

Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?

The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved! 

So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ. 
I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
As far as what happens if someone says I have * accepted *Christ.
I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]

Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose


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## No Longer A Libertine

Perg mentioned meeting those who don't know how to pray, truthfully friend I don't know if anyone truly does all the time.

I'm exasperated and at a loss to talk to the Lord at times, I plod on the best i can but I think it comes from our disposition, one that thinks prayer always has to be eloquent and when you are coming to grips with your wretchedness there is little eloquence to summon.


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## kvanlaan

Some previous "Sinner's Prayer"/evangelism throwdowns:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f52/trick-sinners-prayer-28209/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/another-question-about-witnessing-2090/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/how-do-you-evangelize-reforming-evangelism-9947/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/dr-matt-question-about-wild-boar-quote-13812/ (and the link to the apuritansmind article, which includes the Jonathan Edwards' 'Sinner's Prayer')

http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/close-your-eyes-repeat-prayer-after-me-12423/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/sinner-s-prayer-16346/

The only personal addition I might have is this: I saw a previous post talking about how we must be 'constantly reforming'. AGREED, 100%. But taking the historical meaning of that term to heart means ejecting cultural/personal/etc/etc/etc baggage and turning to scripture _alone_. If that's the context we say it in,


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## Pergamum

Iconoclast said:


> Perg,
> There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
> vs. post 17
> We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
> The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
> Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
> Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.
> 
> Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?
> 
> The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!
> 
> So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
> In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
> I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
> As far as what happens if someone says I have * accepted *Christ.
> I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
> New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]
> 
> Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
> Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
> Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose




Thanks for the input. Yes, the term "sinner's prayer" is like hanging a kick me sign around one's neck - even when one qualifies it, like I did to some degree (not enough I guess) and then a few posts down, when I give an example of my "sinner's prayer" that I teach others:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


Do you see anything wrong with giving an example such as this? As far as assurances of salvation, these should never be given to anyone,, but as far as given someone a form or an outline when they are still unsaved, it just seems wise, biblical and practical.


One need not buy into all the excesses of Finneyism as they help someone with praying as they first approach Christ.


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## turmeric

Sorry, Perg, I was asleep. No, I don't see anything wrong with the prayer you teach people, it's way better than the "sinner's prayer" they use in the States, it seems entirely orthodox. It's true, people who come from other religions often don't know how to pray. They might wonder; what direction should I face, how many times must I bow, how does one address Jesus Christ, should I use beads, it goes on and on. I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching people to pray, or with your sample prayer. May God continue to bless your work!


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## matthew11v25

Couple random thoughts:

I find this topic fascinating because it is surrounding evangelism. I cant put my finger on it but there seems to be conflict of pragmatics vs principle (or maybe no conflict at all), such as when someone confesses Christ or says they want to be a Christian...what do you do with them? Since many believers understand the importance of apologetics and dealing with objections but when someone finally says "I Believe!" we may be taken back: "really?". 

Obviously they must understand what they confess (such as the gospel, etc). But I believe at some early point a Confessor's/Believer's Prayer (maybe a better way of saying Sinner's Prayer) is in order because Christians must pray and the "how to" may be foreign to people especially from other cultures, etc. By confessors prayer I mean nothing that is a one time thing but primarily continued through out their life. Such as praying for forgiveness, faith, wisdom, etc. 

I think everyone agrees that faith is a gift, not earned by a prayer model (it seems we agree to set aside the idea that praying when you confess Christ is NOT the catalyst to becoming a Christian), thus I think is important that if you are going to pray with a budding believer and teach them to pray should also include guiding them to scripture that teaches them such (Lord's prayer).

Again, I have been around people that have confessed Christ but are completely unaware of things like how to pray, etc, as some have much trouble wrapping around their mind around some of the details and "how to" of the faith but believe in the Gospel and Christ. If the church is the body of Christ I do not think we can expect a new Hand on the body to immediately pick up a pencil and start writing, but to be taught and shown...discipled in prayer. 

The Sinners Prayer has baggage as a name, but I do think praying with a new confessor/believer is a very biblical thing...nothing like having a brother to help walk you through the intimate aspects of the faith.


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## Herald

Brethren, my problems with the sinners prayer is on two fronts: theological and experiential. I am a graduate of the Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, New York. It was founded by the late Jack Wyrtzen. Wyrtzen was a Billy Graham type of evangelist, but was more Wesleyan in his attitude towards separated living. Word of Life presents the gospel through stage productions, street evangelism, youth camps and activity outreaches such as "Scare-Mares" and regional youth rallies. At the end of each activity is usually a "Romans Road" type gospel presentation, a sinners prayer and a call to raise hands. It culminates with a Graham-like altar call. When I was a student at WOLBI I bought into most of this hook, line and sinker. I saw troves of "converts" who were emotionally moved by a Passion Play performance that tugged on their heart strings. They would come up to the stage and meet with student-counselors who would confirm that they "prayed the prayer." We would then get them to fill out their "spiritual birth certificate" and a enroll in a study of the gospel of John by correspondence. As I look back on it my heart is grieved. I told people, "You are now in God's family. You're saved!" God forgive me for my ignorant presumption. How did I know they were saved? On what basis did I make such an authoritative decree? The recidivism rate of these so-called converts was huge. The Word of Life evangelism model only served to dumb down the gospel and make faith in Christ a formula, not on the basis of _sola fide_. Did God gloriously save people who heard the gospel at WOL events? Absolutely! Is bad soteriology justified because some are saved? Absolutely not!

I don't think it is wrangling over semantics. It doesn't matter whether you are "BR" or "TR." What is the content of the gospel and how is a person saved? In other words, what is the biblical model and how can we best follow it?


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## Reformed Covenanter

armourbearer said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so it sounds like you object to the abuses that occur when people are taught how to pray.
> 
> I too do not like these abuses. The sinner's prayer is not an act that saves, it is a prayer for salvation. Even the Purtians spoke of "closing with Christ."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't object to prayer as a means of grace; but as soon as one associates the prayer with "closing with Christ" they have fallen into the very error that Puritan expression was designed to protect against -- formalism. "Closing with Christ" is the personal taking of Christ to be one's prophet, priest, and king, and can in no sense be equated with the repetition of a form of words.
Click to expand...


As I did on another thread, yet again I will cite an example of my experiences in fundamentalist circles in Northern Ireland. There are many who think that they are converted just because they have prayed "the sinners prayer", yet these people have not embraced Christ as Saviour and Lord. They think that because they have repeated a set of words that this means they are saved. Consequently, there are many people who visit nightclubs at the weekends, indulge in pre-marital sex, ignore the word of God on just about everything, shun the means of grace, and so on. Yet these people think that they are saved because they have recited a prayer.

Sinners are to be exhorted to seek the Lord and to accept Christ, however, getting them to repeat the sinners prayer is giving them a false hope.


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## JBaldwin

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19,20 ESV)

As I've read through this thread, these verses come to mind. Our call in evangelizing is to make disciples. One of my personal concerns with the reformed church in general is our general lack of concern when it comes to evangelizing. While we sit here and argue over the "sinners prayer" I wonder how many of us (me included) are concerned about finding the lost sheep? Is it not our job to find the sheep that God has called and make disciples of them? And shouldn't we be concerned that there are some out there that haven't heard yet? When we find those sheep "as we are going" we need to instruct them to repent and turn to the Lord, if they want to know what to say, we should, at least, give them some direction. 

If we don't follow up with that person in some way to make sure they are being discipled, (and if they are truly converted, it will come out eventually), then we have not fulfilled the command in these verses.

Our problem is that we are so busy teaching, that we haven't taken the time to find out if they have been converted. While those on the other end of the spectrum are so busy making converts that they haven't bothered to find out if they are truly converted.


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## panta dokimazete

Thank you, Joshua for posting this...a mighty word.


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## ChristopherPaul

kvanlaan said:


> Some previous "Sinner's Prayer"/evangelism throwdowns:
> 
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/dr-matt-question-about-wild-boar-quote-13812/ (and the link to the apuritansmind article, which includes the Jonathan Edwards' 'Sinner's Prayer')



Wow, thanks Kevin for the links. The "Edwardsian" version of the sinners prayer is worth quoting:



> Dear God, whom I hate with all my being precisely because you hate and threaten me with hell, I hate this punishment perhaps even more than I hate you. Or, maybe I should say that I love my comfort even more than I hate you. For that reason I am asking a favor of you. I want you to make me love you, whom I hate even when I ask this and even more because I have to ask this. I am being frank with you because I know it is no use to be otherwise. You know even better than I how much I hate you and that I love only myself. It is no use for me to pretend to be sincere. I most certainly do not love you and do not want to love you. I hate the thought of loving you but that is what I'm asking because I love myself. If you can answer this 'prayer' I guess the gift of gratitude will come with it and then I will be able to do what I would not think of doing now—thank you for making me love you whom I hate. Amen.


----------



## moral necessity

Pergamum said:


> Lord, I want to be saved. I am a sinner. Please grant me true faith and true repentnace and help me to trust in you truly. Please have mercy onme a sinner..."
> 
> 
> Is it okay to teach people to plead this as they are seeking the Lord?




Apply this exact question to the situation with Moses and the serpent on the pole. If you were in the crowd with those who were bitten by the snakes, and you had looked at the pole for the cure, what would you say to someone next to you to present the good news of how you were cured? Would it make sense to lead them to do what you're saying here? If so, then it very well may be appropriate. If you would not say this, then what would you say?

Personally, I would encourage them to turn and trust what God said regarding how to get cured, that he does not lie, and that if they turned in faith to look to the snake on the pole, it would work, but they must abandon all other options. If they didn't have faith to look to the pole, but kept their focus on their medicines and physicians, I would tell them that they're going about being delivered in the wrong way, and that they are rejecting the savior that God placed there for them, and that their prayer of "wanting to be saved" and for God to "have mercy on me" lacks trust in the God who they are praying to, for he has already provided for their salvation and has granted them mercy via the pole. Our prayers would then be needed for God to give them faith to believe such and to turn to God's savior up on the pole.

Our assurance in such a one who has turned to trust in Christ originates upon their confession that they have genuinely done so. It rests in the assurance of Christ to keep his promise that, if they come to him, he will not cast them out. We can offer this assurance that Christ offers, that if they genuinely turn to him for salvation, and truly rest their hope only upon him and his merits to stand before the Father in their stead, then he will not leave them or forsake them, and he will own them as his for all eternity.

Blessings!


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## Semper Fidelis

matthew11v25 said:


> Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray.
> 
> Perg said:
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.
> 
> Sounds modeled after scripture to me.
> 
> While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.



What do you think about this? It's a prayer asking for God to show the Truth too:



> I would exhort you that when you read these things, that you would remember how merciful the Lord has been to the children of men, from the creation of Adam even until today. Ponder this in your heart.
> 
> And when you receive these things, ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are true; and if you ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it to you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> And by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.


----------



## Iconoclast

Pergamum said:


> Iconoclast said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perg,
> There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
> vs. post 17
> We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
> The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
> Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
> Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.
> 
> Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?
> 
> The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!
> 
> So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
> In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
> I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
> As far as what happens if someone says I have * accepted *Christ.
> I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
> New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]
> 
> Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
> Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
> Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input. Yes, the term "sinner's prayer" is like hanging a kick me sign around one's neck - even when one qualifies it, like I did to some degree (not enough I guess) and then a few posts down, when I give an example of my "sinner's prayer" that I teach others:
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> 
> Do you see anything wrong with giving an example such as this? As far as assurances of salvation, these should never be given to anyone,, but as far as given someone a form or an outline when they are still unsaved, it just seems wise, biblical and practical.
> 
> 
> One need not buy into all the excesses of Finneyism as they help someone with praying as they first approach Christ.
Click to expand...


Perg,
I do not see anything wrong with this form or attempt to "frame out" how to pray. This is simple yet deals with heart matters. To me alot depends on how much saving truth you have been able to sow.
If the plow of the law has been used to discover personal sin, the idea of a Holy God bringing a 100% righteous judgment on the last day,
It is only proper to point to The Divine remedy, Look and live.
Knowing that God is sovereign , if we are praying to be used in our daily contacts, God will provide salvation many times in spite of us.
Sometimes I think that a meeting has gone well, and yet it does not seem to yield much fruit. Other times I lamented that I did not say this ,or that, and yet later on have found that what God used was not how I would have planned things.
I have recently met a man in the city who is a retired corrections officer with charasmatic tendencies, to say the least. He has a radio program on a spanish station, that has one half hour in english each week that gets broadcast into a local prison.
I listened and taped it a couple of times. Most of the content was theologically defective, He was binding satan,commanding angels to set the prisoners free,[ he never mentioned that they should repent before being set free] etc.
I saw Him the following week. I told Him I had taped the program, and that if he had time I would like to go over it with Him. Instead of just totally ripping into him, I explained that I liked the fact that in a 30 minute program, he was able to offer up alot of good verses,that he read over the air.
I told Him that i liked that he did not shrink back from discussing how God intends to punish sin,and that only those who look to Jesus will be saved.
Although there was much to be critical of, I was very conscious of the fact that he was on the radio,and I was not. He had access to the prisoners and I did not. Planted seed in his mind was the best i could do short term.
I told Him about sermonaudio. He tried it out and came back the following week and said- most all the men on there were..... reformed.
This led to a discussion on the reformation, and the scripture as truthJN17;17
I pointed out that charasmatics seem more interested in going outside the scripture,while all truth is contained in it.
As we began to discuss the scripture my heart sank a bit as he seemed reluctant to want to set aside time to look more closely at spiritual truth.
I have seen him a couple of times since, but I still have learned that until I am doing as much as he is,maybe I have not earned the right to be over-zealous to correct him. I wanted to encourage the parts that were according to truth and plant some seed about what i saw was lacking.
I have to just continue to pray for him that the 1689 confession I gave him will take root in the providence of God.
His radio presentation was positive as he attempted to set forth Jesus as Lord. He seemed to know that there were issues that I would not agree on .
Again far from advocating pragmatism,sometimes we are used to point the way, or maybe to water the seed in someone's life.
As long as you are actively serving Our Lord. I will actively pray for you.
Hopefully , iron sharpens iron, and faithful are the wounds of a friend, but maybe even through the means of heated discussion/debate/rebuke/ ad hominem attacks,repentance,  love covering a multitude of sins we will all make progess in our presentation of truth and our interaction with those we differ with.
Perg, you do not have to answer to me or anyone else . To your own master you stand or fall. Sometimes I like the issues you raise, sometimes I am not sure if you are just trying to get a reaction, or if you have a concern for some in here.
If the truth be known, we all have our own little idosyncrasies. Some are very consistent. Some a bit rigid.Some too loose.
As far as the actual form any prayer should take,pray about it, and be trying to reform even this type of basic presentation.
The closer we are to the light of scripture, we dispell darkness.


----------



## MW

Iconoclast said:


> I have seen him a couple of times since, but I still have learned that until I am doing as much as he is,maybe I have not earned the right to be over-zealous to correct him.



We need to be careful about how we evaluate Christian work. These sound words from G. I. Williamson's Shorter Catechism study are worth pondering:



> Many preachers preach false doctrine and do not glorify God. And many Christians do their daily work in the factory or place of business in such a way that they do glorify God! The true view is that when a person seeks to glorify God, he seeks at all times and in all activities alike to do that which is well pleasing in God’s sight.


----------



## matthew11v25

SemperFideles said:


> matthew11v25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray.
> 
> Perg said:
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.
> 
> Sounds modeled after scripture to me.
> 
> While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about this? It's a prayer asking for God to show the Truth too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would exhort you that when you read these things, that you would remember how merciful the Lord has been to the children of men, from the creation of Adam even until today. Ponder this in your heart.
> 
> And when you receive these things, ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are true; and if you ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it to you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> And by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I think you are quoting a mormon teaching on prayer used as part of the mormon testimony. Though I am not sure of your purpose in doing so. Lyrically I am sure we could dig up prayers in various sects that are orthodox in physical word though the one praying may be heretical in doctrine.


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## Semper Fidelis

Don't you think it is interesting that the form is very similar? Also, there is no "form" in the Scriptures that you can "dig up" that resembles the Sinner's Prayer. The fact that the Sinner's Prayer resembles Moroni 10:3-5 should tell you something.

Is it your contention that the form of the prayer is orthodox then? If so, why doesn't the prayer in Moroni cause Mormons to have the Truth of the Gospel revealed to them?


----------



## matthew11v25

It is interesting, but I do not consider them that similiar. The quote I gave from Perg doesnt sound theologically off to me as the mormon quote does. The mormon use of a "sincere heart" "real intent", and "having faith in Christ, he will..." seems in line with the mormon's view of works-salvation and I can imagine, sadly, that many professing Christians would not have a problem with it.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

So you don't really agree that we can find pagan prayers that are orthodox? I'm not sure what your position is now.

I actually do see a parallel to the Sinner's prayer here. The assumption with both is that, through the prayer itself, God will show them the Truth and that it will dawn upon them what that Truth is. It assumes that God uses that prayer as a means of Grace to impart saving knowledge in an immediate way:


> Grant me understanding of who you are...





> ...manifest the truth of it to you, by the power of the Holy Ghost


By immediate, I mean to imply "without medium". There is a neo-Gnostic assumption about how God's Spirit functions in both cases.

The orthodox view is that the reading or especially the preaching of the Word performs that function.


----------



## matthew11v25

I do believe we can find prayers by pagans that are lyrically sound. 

Just realized you edited a prior post so let me address that:

I would agree that a prayer modeled in a works-salvation format is unbiblical. I am fine with the form I quoted above because it is in my estimate a petition for repentance and faith. I may have forgotten what I wrote previously but I do not believe I spent much time on "form". 

What do you consider unbiblical regarding the *form *in the quote I provided below?

I may have not made it clear before but I am not in agreement with the idea that any prayer by man brings or initiates salvation. 

I originally addressed this quote by perg:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."

what do you see that is unbiblical with this prayer?


----------



## Semper Fidelis

matthew11v25 said:


> I do believe we can find prayers by pagans that are lyrically sound.
> 
> Just realized you edited a prior post so let me address that:
> 
> I would agree that a prayer modeled in a works-salvation format is unbiblical. I am fine with the form I quoted above because it is in my estimate a petition for repentance and faith. I may have forgotten what I wrote previously but I do not believe I spent much time on "form".
> 
> What do you consider unbiblical regarding the *form *in the quote I provided below?
> 
> I may have not made it clear before but I am not in agreement with the idea that any prayer by man brings or initiates salvation.
> 
> I originally addressed this quote by perg:
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> what do you see that is unbiblical with this prayer?



I already addressed what I see wrong in it. It assumes an immediate work of illumination rather than through the preaching or reading of the Word of God. How, precisely, do you believe God illumines the mind of the praying party in this case?


----------



## Pergamum

turmeric said:


> Sorry, Perg, I was asleep. No, I don't see anything wrong with the prayer you teach people, it's way better than the "sinner's prayer" they use in the States, it seems entirely orthodox. It's true, people who come from other religions often don't know how to pray. They might wonder; what direction should I face, how many times must I bow, how does one address Jesus Christ, should I use beads, it goes on and on. I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching people to pray, or with your sample prayer. May God continue to bless your work!



Yes, exactly.

An example: A___ is a new believer from the religion of peace. After confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord he begins his Christian life. Three months later, his newborn dies. He comes to the missionary and asks, "In Islam we have a prayer to repeat for everything, what prayer do I recite to take away this pain..."

A sad but true case that demonstrates that we are not just to describe prayer to new believers but we can actually lead new believers in prayer and guide them into praying themselvles, all the while resisting any misconceptions that prayer works the same as a mantra or a ritual that mechanical "does something".


----------



## Pergamum

joshua said:


> Here's an interesting series on You Tube that might relate to the subject matter. Parts 5 & 6 are particularly germane to the subject of "the sinners pray." I don't think the guy is Reformed (I could be wrong), but he's definitely not "shallow" concerning these things. He has written a book upon which he based these videos. _The Graham Formula_ by Patrick McIntyre can be downloaded in PDF form here.
> 
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 1 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 2 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 3 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 4 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 5 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 6 of 7
> YouTube - The Graham Formula -- Part 7 of 7




Looks awesome brother! I wish I could download this, but cannot from where I am at. Is there a dvd that this is drawn from?


----------



## Pergamum

matthew11v25 said:


> Couple random thoughts:
> 
> I find this topic fascinating because it is surrounding evangelism. I cant put my finger on it but there seems to be conflict of pragmatics vs principle (or maybe no conflict at all), such as when someone confesses Christ or says they want to be a Christian...what do you do with them? Since many believers understand the importance of apologetics and dealing with objections but when someone finally says "I Believe!" we may be taken back: "really?".
> 
> Obviously they must understand what they confess (such as the gospel, etc). But I believe at some early point a Confessor's/Believer's Prayer (maybe a better way of saying Sinner's Prayer) is in order because Christians must pray and the "how to" may be foreign to people especially from other cultures, etc. By confessors prayer I mean nothing that is a one time thing but primarily continued through out their life. Such as praying for forgiveness, faith, wisdom, etc.
> 
> I think everyone agrees that faith is a gift, not earned by a prayer model (it seems we agree to set aside the idea that praying when you confess Christ is NOT the catalyst to becoming a Christian), thus I think is important that if you are going to pray with a budding believer and teach them to pray should also include guiding them to scripture that teaches them such (Lord's prayer).
> 
> Again, I have been around people that have confessed Christ but are completely unaware of things like how to pray, etc, as some have much trouble wrapping around their mind around some of the details and "how to" of the faith but believe in the Gospel and Christ. If the church is the body of Christ I do not think we can expect a new Hand on the body to immediately pick up a pencil and start writing, but to be taught and shown...discipled in prayer.
> 
> The Sinners Prayer has baggage as a name, but I do think praying with a new confessor/believer is a very biblical thing...nothing like having a brother to help walk you through the intimate aspects of the faith.





Great reply, brother.

Some thoughts:

If something is Biblical, isn't it also practical? If it is Biblical, we need not worry whether it will not "work" right? The Bible is immensely pragmatic.


Also, looking into methodologies and not merely theoretizing does not mean that one has fallen into pragmatism. 

The principles are the foundation that God has given us to develop strategies to reach people, to present a clear message, etc. Being practical and zealous and enthusiastic does not mean one has fallen away from the principles - only that they rightly see that the principles are there for us to build our work upon. Now, a house with no foundation will fall, and arminian evangelism falls into this category. But a well formed foundation with no walls or building, well that is also an error.


I think you are right. The Sinner's Prayer terminology causes people to have quite a heated reaction. Perhaps your terminology would be better to avoid the baggage. I fear that out of reaction to the Arminians that some may be tempted not to model prayer and even teach the specifics of prayer to new believers.

Thanks for the post.


----------



## Pergamum

SemperFideles said:


> matthew11v25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray.
> 
> Perg said:
> 
> "Lord,
> 
> I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
> 
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.
> 
> Sounds modeled after scripture to me.
> 
> While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about this? It's a prayer asking for God to show the Truth too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would exhort you that when you read these things, that you would remember how merciful the Lord has been to the children of men, from the creation of Adam even until today. Ponder this in your heart.
> 
> And when you receive these things, ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are true; and if you ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it to you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> And by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




That sounds very good too, Rich. 

Jesus says knock and it will be opened to you, and the way in the Greek (and I am NO expert in Greek) does seem to speak of not merely a single knocking. 

So to pray for truth is to keep knocking. And if one keeps knocking for the right reasons, it does appear the says that it will be opened.

It does some that totally unchurched people sometimes do need a model of what prayer is, and often the simpler the better at first.


----------



## Pergamum

Rich:

We can and should pray for greater illumination. We can and should pray that God would grant us true faith and true repentance. We can and should pray that God would show us the truth. 


The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, doesn't it? We are told to pray for many things great and small....does true faith, true repentnace, our verysouls somehow slip through a loophole or something?

And if we pray for salvation, isn't this indicative of God moving in us already? And if so, won't he illuminate us by contact with the Word or a preacher?


Rich, let me ask you: If a man with a sincere heart and true intent really does pray for God to save them, will God not save them? 

It appears the you tried to bait me with the Moronic Prayer, and it appears that you might not like all the "sincere heart" business - but will God deny a man who is truly seeking the Lord? Of course, if He is truly seeking the Lord, the Lord is already moving, so why object when a seeker proclaims the desires of his heart?



Again, the models of prayer that I gave in no way guaranteed salvation to those who mouthed the words.


----------



## kvanlaan

Joshua, thanks for that Washer clip - I _love_ that one (among many).


----------



## ServantofGod

I speak with little wisdom, and a lot less learning then about 99% of those on this board, but after reading all 50,000!! of the replies(I've never been part of a forum this big and intense), I felt I earned the right to reply.


If the issue here is, can one be saved by the sinners prayer, I believe that has already been put to rest through the contradictions of many here. You say that faith is a gift, repentance is from the heart, ect... Very good then. Saying the sinners prayer does not save you, nor can it hinder you. I am not a fan of it by any means, but who is the Ruler of hearts? You or God? Who knows what is happening in the heart of those who are praying! We tell them to repeat words. Their mouth repeats, but God transforms the heart! It doesn't really matter how it has been abused, for the Sovereign Lord will save those whom He will, and that is that.

Now, if the issue is whether it is Biblical or not, what can be said here? It is not Biblical, but it is not prohibited by Scripture. There are many things done by the saints that are not "Biblical", but they do not dishonor or mar the name of Christ. Is it not the same with this prayer(though some may argue it does mar)? But my point is the same as before. I spent an entire semester in college taking an evangelism class that taught us about "methods" and the such. I hated the class, and though it was worthless, I came away better off. It is not us who saves. It is not our way of preaching. We agonize over technicalities such as the sinners prayer, but it is He who saves. Did not Jesus Himself say, "He who is for me is not against me"? Check out Mark 9:38-41

I do not presume to know more then any of you, but watching the bashing going on(and I am very sensitive to things like this) I felt I should reply. Now, do two things with it, throw it out and intellectually obliterate me(which is not that hard), or lets sit back and speak of the grace of our Saviour, who does not require prayers nor anything else to save us.


Securely His, 

Ian K.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> Rich:
> 
> We can and should pray for greater illumination. We can and should pray that God would grant us true faith and true repentance. We can and should pray that God would show us the truth.
> 
> 
> The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, doesn't it? We are told to pray for many things great and small....does true faith, true repentnace, our verysouls somehow slip through a loophole or something?
> 
> And if we pray for salvation, isn't this indicative of God moving in us already? And if so, won't he illuminate us by contact with the Word or a preacher?
> 
> 
> Rich, let me ask you: If a man with a sincere heart and true intent really does pray for God to save them, will God not save them?
> 
> It appears the you tried to bait me with the Moronic Prayer, and it appears that you might not like all the "sincere heart" business - but will God deny a man who is truly seeking the Lord? Of course, if He is truly seeking the Lord, the Lord is already moving, so why object when a seeker proclaims the desires of his heart?
> 
> Again, the models of prayer that I gave in no way guaranteed salvation to those who mouthed the words.



Again, you should ask yourself: if the prayer itself provides illumination toward the end you're talking about then why don't we support Mormon missionaries who are essentially encouraging people to pray to ask Christ to illumine their hearts and for God to reveal Himself to them? Inadvertently, are they not Christian missionaries in your view since there might be some earnest men out there praying for such salvation and illumination?

In fact, since you believe the prayer from Moroni is essentially sound, why doesn't it produce conversions to true Christianity?

I think what you're missing here is that these type of prayers give away an underlying assumption that God's revelation to us works immediately, apart from the Word itself. Now, I don't have a problem with praying to God, before the studying or the preaching of the Word to ask that He would open our eyes to the Truth therein but I believe it is the Word that God has revealed is His means to the end you keep talking about. You insist it is prayer. Show me in the Scriptures where this is the case. Don't merely assert it. Demonstrate it. If you cannot substantiate the insistence that God makes men wise unto salvation through prayer then what are we debating here?


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## Pergamum

SemperFideles said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rich:
> 
> We can and should pray for greater illumination. We can and should pray that God would grant us true faith and true repentance. We can and should pray that God would show us the truth.
> 
> 
> The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, doesn't it? We are told to pray for many things great and small....does true faith, true repentnace, our verysouls somehow slip through a loophole or something?
> 
> And if we pray for salvation, isn't this indicative of God moving in us already? And if so, won't he illuminate us by contact with the Word or a preacher?
> 
> 
> Rich, let me ask you: If a man with a sincere heart and true intent really does pray for God to save them, will God not save them?
> 
> It appears the you tried to bait me with the Moronic Prayer, and it appears that you might not like all the "sincere heart" business - but will God deny a man who is truly seeking the Lord? Of course, if He is truly seeking the Lord, the Lord is already moving, so why object when a seeker proclaims the desires of his heart?
> 
> Again, the models of prayer that I gave in no way guaranteed salvation to those who mouthed the words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you should ask yourself: if the prayer itself provides illumination toward the end you're talking about then why don't we support Mormon missionaries who are essentially encouraging people to pray to ask Christ to illumine their hearts and for God to reveal Himself to them? Inadvertently, are they not Christian missionaries in your view since there might be some earnest men out there praying for such salvation and illumination?
> 
> In fact, since you believe the prayer from Moroni is essentially sound, why doesn't it produce conversions to true Christianity?
> 
> I think what you're missing here is that these type of prayers give away an underlying assumption that God's revelation to us works immediately, apart from the Word itself. Now, I don't have a problem with praying to God, before the studying or the preaching of the Word to ask that He would open our eyes to the Truth therein but I believe it is the Word that God has revealed is His means to the end you keep talking about. You insist it is prayer. Show me in the Scriptures where this is the case. Don't merely assert it. Demonstrate it. If you cannot substantiate the insistence that God makes men wise unto salvation through prayer then what are we debating here?
Click to expand...




Huh?

When did I ever say that the prayer works without the Word? Show me.

The pretty good sounding Moroni prayer is, in fact, a pretty good sounding prayer - but to a Christ that is not God of very God. 

Of course, when a seeker comes and wants salvation, the basics of the Gospel will be told to them. Follow up will be done. In fact, in model prayers where I help people to pray I usually stress that Jesus is the God man, both fully God and fully man.

Again, what do you see objectionable about my practice?

Perhaps I should not have entitled the thread the "Sinner's Prayer" due to the baggage involved and the knee jerk reactions that it would gather. But, I want to assert that we should model prayer and not merely speak of the importance of prayer but even be willing to show sinners how to pray, have them practice praying and describe in detail the elements of prayer.

Two Biblical models to teach people to pray would be the Lukan publican, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner..." (wait, no mention of Scripture was involved here and yet he went away justified) and the Lord's Prayer itself. Romans 10 does speak of confession being made with the mouth. And for immersionists, this confession and profession of faith precedes baptism.



Prayer is important, isn't it? God coordinates his providence in such a way that there are "results" that often even occur after prayers, right? 


My question to you then: Should we pray for our salvation? What is wrong with praying for illumination, for truth, for greater light, for Christ to show Himself to us, for God to grant us true faithand true repentnce? 

You are trying to create a false dichotomy, as if my practice somehow ignores Scripture. 


This is not a substitute for Bible reading or trying to hear the Gospel from others. However, if someone truly desires salvation, then they will knock so that the door may be opened to them. And if they are truly knocking then they will be knocking on the right door and with the right means, that is prayer and study of the Scripture.

If the old woman convinced the unjust judge to act in her favor, then the Lord - rich in mercy - will be quick to answer the prayers of all that He Himself is moving to prayer for salvation.


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## panta dokimazete

For consideration:

Philippians 1:18-20 
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.


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## Semper Fidelis

Prayer is important, Pergamum. What I'm making sure we distinguish here what its function here, especially as related to the OP.

I asked what are we debating here because I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Some are making a general rule that, somehow, the prayer itself revives the mind and that God uses immediate revelation to make His Gospel known to the person by the asking apart from the mediation of the Word toward that end.

You sort of set this thread off on a bad foot and it's been hard for me to shift trails, especially since there is so much misunderstanding about prayer that has been mixed up over time. You initially asked:


Pergamum said:


> I meet people that actually do not know how to pray. I lead them in the sinner's prayer.


I don't know why that would immediately come to your mind to think of the Sinner's Prayer.

If the person does not know Christ, and that was the intent of your OP then I don't agree with it. If they had a desire to know Christ, I would start by praying with them that, as you opened the Word with them, that the Spirit would illumine their hearts and minds through the Word. I would then proclaim the Gospel to them. Either open up the Word to them or speak the Truth of it to them. In this case, this is not the "Sinner's Prayer" but it is a request that God attend His Word with salvation. I have no problem with this.

If, on the other hand, you had a person who was already a believer coming to you then I would not use the "Sinner's Prayer" either. Why? There are better models for prayer not the least of which is the answer Christ gave to the same question. I would rather teach them through the Lord's prayer and note some of the elements there. I might also integrate some other examples of prayer and include some devotional thoughts on the Ten Commandments, the Apostle's Creed, and such as elemetns to teach them how to pray.

So, if you're asking me about the Sinner's Prayer, by itself, which is what this thread was about initially and has never really departed from, then I remain unconvinced that it stands alone as a good prayer to give to someone who is coming to me to ask me how to pray either for conversion or for devotion/supplication.

You keep wanting to back into the Sinner's Prayer and convince me that there are examples in the Scriptures of prayers that look like the Sinner's Prayer but just because there are certain resemblances does not mean that the situations are compatible with the original question nor do some of the examples from the parables give a didactic pattern for prayer but are offered in the course of a narrative as an example of contrition vs. hypocrisy or about earnestness. I believe strongly that prayer ought to be both so I have no problem with any of the examples of prayer in the Scriptures but neither do they teach then that this is the pattern for prayer when someone asks us how to pray.


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## Pergamum

Maybe the term "Sinners Prayer" has too much baggage. 

I should rephrase: I have people asking me to teach them how to pray and the form of the prayer I give (when I do not give the Lord's Prayer or the prayer of the publican in Luke, "Have mercy on me, a sinner") very much resembles what passes for the sinner's prayer by most. 

Of course, it appears from this thread that the false promises of assurance are usally tied up with this sinner's prayer and this is far from my practice. However, the basic info is much the same.

So, perhaps the baggage of the term is just too strong.


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