# Lifelong Presbyterian is now Baptist



## Reformation Monk (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, I've been Presbyterian for 40 years and I'm now a Baptist. 

I won't get into it too much, I realize it's a touchy subject. 

But for me, after spending many many hours of study; I had to conclude that I no longer agree with infant baptism. There's a lot to be said there, but at the end of the day, I am convinced that the New Covenant is for disciples only. 

Anyway, just thought I would share, again, I'm not boasting and there is no "hard feelings", this isn't a rant or anti-infant baptism thread. I just feel good about my decision. Now I need to get baptized.


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## KMK (Jun 24, 2011)

You will also need to edit your profile to reflect your change in confessional subscription.


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## JonathanHunt (Jun 24, 2011)

This is one of those threads one wants to reply to with some words of encouragement but fears to in case the same is misinterpreted as gloating!


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## matthew11v25 (Jun 24, 2011)

Out of curiosity...

Did you only change views on Baptism, or Church Government as well?

Most of the time I hear of Credos going to a Paedo position...not the other way around! So I am curious what argument, etc, caused the light bulb moment?


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## Reformation Monk (Jun 24, 2011)

matthew11v25 said:


> Out of curiosity...
> 
> Did you only change views on Baptism, or Church Government as well?
> 
> Most of the time I hear of Credos going to a Paedo position...not the other way around! So I am curious what argument, etc, caused the light bulb moment?



Well, it isn't just my change in views on Baptism; it does have to do with the whole Reformed Presbyterian Perspectives, but as far as actual "Church Government." that doesn't really have anything to do with my change. The actual running and organization process for me has never been an issue... although it is a product of the doctrinal views. 

For me; I personally spend hours almost everyday either listening to scripture or online sermons. I find myself almost always gravitating to Baptist preachers. I guess for me, I tend to put a lot of emphasis in the Gospel. 

I don't have anything against Good Reformed Presbyterianism. Again I'm not becoming a Baptist because I have any issues. 

For me though, I just think that Presbyterianism still kind of holds on to some old Traditionalism. At the end of the day, infant baptism to me is putting a little too much focus on the Church and the Sacraments. It's hard to explain. 

I've read and have listened to many many books and lectures on Covenant Theology. I just don't really see the New Covenant being just a continuation of the Old. I think that the New Covenant was meant to be and is a lot different. I have come to the conclusion that for me Baptism wasn't the New Covenant form of circumcision.

So it is because of my biblical views, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual church government.


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## JoyFullMom (Jun 24, 2011)

So, would you say that you have left Covenant Theology for New Covenant Theology?


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 24, 2011)

> I guess for me, I tend to put a lot of emphasis in the Gospel.



Is this to say that Presbyterians do not?


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## Reformation Monk (Jun 24, 2011)

JoyFullMom said:


> So, would you say that you have left Covenant Theology for New Covenant Theology?



absolutely not.

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> > I guess for me, I tend to put a lot of emphasis in the Gospel.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this to say that Presbyterians do not?



For, me week in and week out, Baptist's seem to be a little more focused on the gospel; this is as much as I'm going to say on that point. Again, this isn't a rejecting/accepting issue for me. I'm not saying that I don't approve of Reformed Presbyterianism. I'm just saying that I personally am more comfortable with Reformed Baptist's Biblical perspectives now.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jun 24, 2011)




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## nicnap (Jun 24, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


>


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 24, 2011)

Reformation Monk said:


> JoyFullMom said:
> 
> 
> > So, would you say that you have left Covenant Theology for New Covenant Theology?
> ...



I think you should say more. You are leveling the accusation that Presbyterians will stand behind a pulpit and preach something other than the Gospel at times.


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## Andres (Jun 24, 2011)

Reformation Monk said:


> For, me week in and week out, Baptist's seem to be a little more focused on the gospel; this is as much as I'm going to say on that point. Again, this isn't a rejecting/accepting issue for me. I'm not saying that I don't approve of Reformed Presbyterianism. *I'm just saying that I personally am more comfortable with Reformed Baptist's Biblical perspectives now*.



No, this isn't what you're saying. You have yet to give any type of scriptural support for why you decided to change positions. Now, I realize you may say that you are not required to do so, but I think that by starting this thread and then making some of the (mis)characterizations against Presbyterians you have made that the onus is in fact on you to further explain yourself or retract some of your statements with an apology.


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## Herald (Jun 24, 2011)

Reformation Monk said:


> JoyFullMom said:
> 
> 
> > So, would you say that you have left Covenant Theology for New Covenant Theology?
> ...



David, there aren't many Baptists on this board who are more Baptist than I am, but I just can't let this comment pass unchallenged. I understand that you don't want to get into a baptism debate; but making that sort of comment followed by, "this is as much as I'm going to say on that point" doesn't fly. I disagree with my Presbyterian brethren on baptism and polity, but I embrace them in their love for the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I really think you should explain your comment because it is quite offensive to Presbyterians.


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## Andres (Jun 24, 2011)

> If I'm not mistaken, folks, Mr. Sumner comes from a PCUSA background; ergo, that might explain his "gospel emphasis" comment. It doesn't _justify_ it, but it might help us understand why he could, in good conscience, say such a thing if all the Presbyterianism he's known has been the PCUSA.



He said he spends hours each day reading and listening to sermons. You mean to tell me in all those hours upon hours, he's never stumbled upon Sinclair Ferguson, R.C. Sproul, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, or Derek Thomas?


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## Andres (Jun 24, 2011)

> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > You mean to tell me in all those hours upon hours, he's never stumbled upon Sinclair Ferguson, R.C. Sproul, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, or Derek Thomas?
> ...



Josh, I thought you knew it all?  I understand and I will await David's further comments. David, have you listened to/read any Presbyterians other than liberal PCUSA "ministers"?


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jun 24, 2011)

With all due respect to the OP (Welcome to the Dark Side) *I request that the moderators take this thread down.* I know I am a simple low life sophomore (almost junior!!) but the comments thus far have left much to the imagination in regard to intent so I think the possibilty for 9th commandment violations is large.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 24, 2011)

Unashamed 116 said:


> With all due respect to the OP (Welcome to the Dark Side) *I request that the moderators take this thread down.* I know I am a simple low life sophomore (almost junior!!) but the comments thus far have left much to the imagination in regard to intent so I think the possibilty for 9th commandment violations is large.



I would agree. He said he is not looking to debate but he posted in this forum, which is basically a debate forum. He said he doesn't want to get into it, but the board being what it is, that will be unavoidable if the thread remains open. Yes, the comment about Baptists focusing more on the gospel is controversial, but I don't think the thread is likely to improve at this point.


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## matthew11v25 (Jun 24, 2011)

Very good point! I get so used to thinking of Presbyterian in terms of RPCGA, PCA, OPC, etc...NOT PCUSA


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 24, 2011)

**Moderating**
Responding to several suggestions for closing the thread: *No*, not at this time.

Personally, I haven't seen anything (starting with the OP) that would move me to add input the thread.
And if the Reformation Monk indulges the replies or queries with more extensive answers, rather than ignoring them, then he's changed his own stated purpose for beginning the thread. It is posted in the "Baptism" forum... Don't engage if you can't be patient and civil, especially when dealing with a fellow member who is congealing his theology, really for the first time.

Everyone, behave yourselves.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 24, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> **Moderating**
> Responding to several suggestions for closing the thread: *No*, not at this time.
> 
> Personally, I haven't seen anything (starting with the OP) that would move me to add input the thread.
> ...



Well said.


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## TimV (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, paedobaptists are still ahead 99 to 1 in numbers, so I personally don't feel threatened.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 24, 2011)

His opening thread on the board says he was from the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod.


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## bookslover (Jun 24, 2011)

David: You DO know that, now that you've switched from Presbyterianism to Baptist, when you get to heaven, your beer will be slightly warmer than everyone else's, and your dwelling place will be moved back to where the generators and air conditioning units are, right? KIDDING! LOL

Also, your cigars will NOT be gen-u-wine Cubans, natch!


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 24, 2011)

> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > > If I'm not mistaken, folks, Mr. Sumner comes from a PCUSA background; ergo, that might explain his "gospel emphasis" comment. It doesn't _justify_ it, but it might help us understand why he could, in good conscience, say such a thing if all the Presbyterianism he's known has been the PCUSA.  If all I knew about Presybterianism was from the PCUSA, I'd become a baptist too.
> ...



I was attempting to state that because he has spent time in the PCA (according to his bio), Missouri Synod, and Wisconsin Synod, one cannot use the excuse of being in the PCUSA as reason for making the claims he made in this thread.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jun 24, 2011)

TimV said:


> Well, paedobaptists are still ahead 99 to 1 in numbers, so I personally don't feel threatened.



99 to 1 based on what numbers? and what exactly would there be to be threatened by?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 24, 2011)

bookslover said:


> David: You DO know that, now that you've switched from Presbyterianism to Baptist, when you get to heaven, your beer will be slightly warmer than everyone else's, and your dwelling place will be moved back to where the generators and air conditioning units are, right? KIDDING! LOL
> 
> Also, your cigars will NOT be gen-u-wine Cubans, natch!



Even though we might be Backseat Baptists we will still enjoy the finer things of life.


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## VictorBravo (Jun 24, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > Well, paedobaptists are still ahead 99 to 1 in numbers, so I personally don't feel threatened.
> ...



Bill, I think this might be considered a hyperbolic joke. The numbers may be inexact, but they might be close for all I know. But the most important thing is that TimV is not easily threatened by anything and he is not unfamiliar with some hardcore Baptists. . . .


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jun 25, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> **Moderating**
> Responding to several suggestions for closing the thread: *No*, not at this time.
> 
> Personally, I haven't seen anything (starting with the OP) that would move me to add input the thread.
> ...



Fair enough. This is why I am not a moderator...yet. I am planning a mutiny! Not really.


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## Reformation Monk (Jun 25, 2011)

Well, as to my tobacco and ale preferences, I actually like Nicaraguan Puro's over Cuban, I prefer a good VaPer like Escudo and I like my Shiner Bock ( I'm from Texas )

Again, this isn't an anti-presbyterian thread.... I was just stating that I've been personally convinced by Scripture to be Credo Baptist. 

I have spent time in the Lutheran Church but I've never been Lutheran. 

I've spent most of my life in the PCUSA but I have been in the PCA for a couple of years.

I've been Reformed for nearly 10 years. 

I have an extensive Library of Reformed Books and have learned my Reformed Faith and again I have listened to countless hours of sermons and lectures online.


All I ment by my earlier statement, is that most Reformed Baptists tend to put a little more emphasis on the gospel message in their weekly sermons then the Presbyterians do, that's all.... Presbyterians tend to be a little more expository, but over all no less gospel centered. 

Again, wasn't trying to make a "negative statement" about Presbyterianism... I was just trying to draw a Baptist distinctive or tendency. 

After listening to many Reformed Baptist preachers on SermonAudio.com and then many PCA and OPC pastors, over and over again... it has just been my observation that Baptists tend to have a little more focus on the efficacy of the "pronouncement of the gospel" or the "gospel call". Presbyterians seem to put a little more focus on the efficacy of the Church and Sacraments....

But I'm probably wrong; anyway... again this has influenced my decision but just a little, again, it's mainly just boiling down to I just think that the doctrine of infant baptism is a stretch. Again I know Covenant Theology very well, I could get a lot more theological, but that wasn't the intent of this thread, I just wanted to share with everyone that I've decided to become Baptist. Sorry I didn't mean for it to be negative in anyway.


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## JonathanHunt (Jun 25, 2011)

Sounds reasonable to me. Time to let it rest, I'd say.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 25, 2011)

Ditto.


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## Wannabee (Jun 25, 2011)

Another fine post by Bruce.

I trust the transition will be a smooth one for you David.


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## Weston Stoler (Jun 26, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> >



 

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 PM ----------




Unashamed 116 said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > **Moderating**
> ...



All us Baptist will one day pull a mutiny anyways. It is in our blood


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## Pilgrim (Jun 26, 2011)

matthew11v25 said:


> Very good point! I get so used to thinking of Presbyterian in terms of RPCGA, PCA, OPC, etc...NOT PCUSA



And I think even today the PCUSA still has more churches and members than all other Presbyterian churches put together. However that's not likely to be the case in a generation or two.

---------- Post added at 01:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------




Contra_Mundum said:


> **Moderating**
> Responding to several suggestions for closing the thread: *No*, not at this time.
> 
> Personally, I haven't seen anything (starting with the OP) that would move me to add input the thread.
> ...



Good points all the way around, brother.


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## pianoman (Jun 27, 2011)

very true concerning PCUSA. Very shaky in areas as I have come to know from being around them a little in the past 2 years. Hopefully the Lord will awaken those who may be his in PCUSA to His glory and HIS message


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## DAW (Jun 27, 2011)

I should like to point out that to be accurate, our new Baptist is not rejecting Presbyterianism but Covenant (paedobaptist) Baptism. Congregationalists (yours truly), Swiss/German/Dutch/Hungarian Reformed and Reformed Anglicans all share with Presbyterians a commitment to Covenant Baptism teaching.

Thee are other paedobaptists on this forum besides Presbyterians.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Jun 27, 2011)

I genuinely regret hearing this decision. I think more important is this: I hear you saying that Pres folk focus on the efficacy of the sacraments over the Gospel. I would encourage you to watch what you're saying, to wit, "it has just been my observation that Baptists tend to have a little more focus on the efficacy of the "pronouncement of the gospel" or the "gospel call". Presbyterians seem to put a little more focus on the efficacy of the Church and Sacraments...." Of course, just before that you say, "Presbyterians tend to be a little more expository, but over all no less gospel centered." I appreciate the latter, but I see it as in conflict with the first quote. We Pres love Christ and his Word and say without a doubt that neither sacraments nor the Church are the foundation of our faith or the center of the message we preach. We love the Gospel above all else, no matter how big a shame it would be to not preach the whole counsel of God, to wit WCF "The Church, IV. ...particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them." The emphasis would be, if all else failed, that the Gospel is foremost. WCF "Baptism. V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated." At any rate, you are apologizing for negativity but then simultaneously saying that the Gospel call isn't emphasized as well in the Pres church as in the Baptist. Who wouldn't bristle at that? Wouldn't you if someone slighted Baptist emphasis of the Gospel? I certainly wouldn't say that about the Baptists what you say about the Pres. and I would hope that no other Pres on here would. Some of the most powerful Gospel preachers of all times are Baptist and all Christians, Pres included (maybe Pres especially!), would do well to examine their ministries and follow those big footprints left by these Christian giants.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jun 29, 2011)

AlexanderHenderson1647 said:


> I genuinely regret hearing this decision. I think more important is this: I hear you saying that Pres folk focus on the efficacy of the sacraments over the Gospel. I would encourage you to watch what you're saying, to wit, "it has just been my observation that Baptists tend to have a little more focus on the efficacy of the "pronouncement of the gospel" or the "gospel call". Presbyterians seem to put a little more focus on the efficacy of the Church and Sacraments...." Of course, just before that you say, "Presbyterians tend to be a little more expository, but over all no less gospel centered." I appreciate the latter, but I see it as in conflict with the first quote. We Pres love Christ and his Word and say without a doubt that neither sacraments nor the Church are the foundation of our faith or the center of the message we preach. We love the Gospel above all else, no matter how big a shame it would be to not preach the whole counsel of God, to wit WCF "The Church, IV. ...particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them." The emphasis would be, if all else failed, that the Gospel is foremost. WCF "Baptism. V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated." At any rate, you are apologizing for negativity but then simultaneously saying that the Gospel call isn't emphasized as well in the Pres church as in the Baptist. Who wouldn't bristle at that? Wouldn't you if someone slighted Baptist emphasis of the Gospel? I certainly wouldn't say the about the Baptists what you say about the Pres. and I would hope that no other Pres on here would. Some of the most powerful Gospel preachers of all times are Baptist and all Christians, Pres included (maybe Pres especially!), would do well to examine their ministries and follow those big footprints left by these Christian giants.



I think his reaction may be against the liturgical aspects of Presbyterianism and not their theology. I may be wrong but I don't think he meant any offense in his statements.


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## JOwen (Jun 29, 2011)

JonathanHunt said:


> This is one of those threads one wants to reply to with some words of encouragement but fears to in case the same is misinterpreted as gloating!



No need to gloat. For me it went the other direction. Lifelong baptist, now a paedo.

Blessings!


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## pianoman (Jun 30, 2011)

Just my 2 cents, let us not forget that whether we are Southern or Reformed Baptists or Presbyterians does not matter. Yes, they both have their strong points. Even as a Baptists, their are many times we as a denomination miss what is right. But for those of us who are truly Christ Followers, we have one thing in common and that is Jesus. I watch Presbyterian Sandy Willson of 2nd Presbyterian in Memphis and love what he has to say. I do not believe that either side has heretical issues. Paedo and Credo baptism does not save a person anyway I have come to realize. What matters is if we have truly been born-agian as in John 3 with Nicodemus. I think our friend needs to be able to go where God leads him. He is still a brother is Christ.


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