# Revelation 12



## Romans922 (Nov 14, 2010)

> Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; *and the dragon fought and his angels, *
> Rev 12:8 *And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. *
> Rev 12:9 *And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. *
> Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: *for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. *



My question is this: At the point of Christ's Resurrection/Ascension did the battle take place at that time and Satan was cast out of heaven to which he can no longer appear before God and accuse us before Him? 

OR 

At the point of Christ's Resurrection/Ascension did the battle take place at that time and Satan was cast out of heaven but he can still accuse us before God?

OR

Another option (Describe please)?


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 14, 2010)

There's a lot of recapitulation going on Rev.12, and symbolism. I don't think the whole is strictly chronological, because there is too much to be said, and trying to say it with temporal logic wouldn't be possible.

The great casting out of the dragon from heaven, with a third of the once-angels/now-demons is a "prehistoric" event. Or, at least I suppose it to be temporally "pre-fall". There is some sense in which the fall of Satan and Man is bound up, so either Satan has already rebelled and been cast out by the time Adam and Eve are tempted, or else his open attack on God commences with his temptation in Eden.

But, in any event, it would seem as if the Job-tableaux (chs 1&2) takes place after the conflict, with man of course already fallen. Satan no longer has that access, since our Lord's great victory: cross--grave--resurrection--ascension. The Father only has ears for his Son. Once justified by a sinless Christ, "who is it that condemns?" Satan can talk to the walls of an empty court-room in that case. This is why there can be no Satan present at a supposed "future-justification"--there can't even be a "future-justification." There is no case to hear.

So, in a sense I think John in Rev.12 conflates the expulsion of rebels from heaven with the final restriction of Satan from repeating the Job-scene. In support of this wholistic, symbolic understanding, note Jesus' visionary statement on on the Seventy's return, having gone forth preaching, healing and casting out demons, etc., Lk.10:17-18. I think his statement is both backward and forward looking. Satan _did_ fall from heaven long ago in a cataclysmic war; and he's _about to_ get taken out again individually like the trash. The signs of victory are the defeat of Satan's power "on his own turf."


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## Peairtach (Nov 15, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> > Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; *and the dragon fought and his angels, *
> > Rev 12:8 *And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. *
> > Rev 12:9 *And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. *
> > Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: *for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. *
> ...


 
You've got to remember also that although we're told about Satan appearing before God and accusing Job, Job if he was a believer, which he was, was just as much justified as we are in the New Covenant era. So God was just as much on Job's side in the Patriarchal era, as He was on e.g. David's side in the Old Covenant era, and as He is on our side in the New Covenant era. 

Even if we deduce from the Book of Job that Satan then had some special access to Heaven, which he has since lost, he had no more real power over the saints whom God Himself had declared just than he does today, because God was always on their side and determined to save them.

The language of Satan being cast out to the Earth (Rev 12), and this from Revelation 20



> And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.



is consistent with an amillennial or postmillennial eschatology which sees Satan's power being somewhat curtailed at Christ's First Advent, if not further curtailed as the Gospel-chain advances during this Inter-Adventual Period.


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## Romans922 (Nov 22, 2010)

Will someone with some Greek Resources help me out? All of mine are packed in boxes.

Revelation 12:10: [FONT=&quot]. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Of the two things underlined, could you give me the Tense, Voice, and Mood of the two verbs?
[/FONT]


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## Romans922 (Nov 22, 2010)

*bump


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## Phil D. (Nov 22, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> Will someone with some Greek Resources help me out? All of mine are packed in boxes.
> 
> Revelation 12:10: [FONT=&quot]. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
> 
> ...



See for yourself here!


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## Peairtach (Nov 22, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> Will someone with some Greek Resources help me out? All of mine are packed in boxes.
> 
> Revelation 12:10: [FONT=&quot]. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
> 
> ...



Just to repeat in a slightly different manner.

The quality of being the accuser(Satan) isn't qualified by the throwing down, as far as I can see. Other apects of Satan's power are being indicated to be restricted/limited by the expression "thrown down". "He who accuses them" merely identifies the being as Satan.

The passage isn't saying that in an earlier era e.g. the Patriarchal or Old Covenant eras, Satan had more power to persuade God by his accusations against the elect. That would be theologically impossible.

It is just saying that the one who constantly accuses God's elect from the beginning of the world up to today (Satan) has had his powers curtailed. But his power to accuse isn't curtailed, it has always been totally ineffective in its goal of bringing one of God's justified ones down to Hell, whether he was, metaphorically-speaking, stomping around, Heaven, Earth or Hell doing his accusing.


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## Elimelek (Nov 25, 2010)

I suspect that the whole life of Jesus (his birth, death and resurrection) is conflated in Revelation 12:5. Heaven cannot contain the Accuser and Jesus. I think the accuser is so restricted by his new lower status that he now tries any means on earth to get people away from God. I tend to read this passage with Colossians 2:13-15 in mind:


> And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities [Probably demonic rulers and authorities] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (ESV)



Revelation 12, as I understand it, testifies about a "palace revolution" where Satan is disarmed and don't have the powers he had before.


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