# Casting lots



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

It seems as though both Old (Prov. 16:33) and New (Acts 1:26) Testament saints cast lots. Is there any biblical warrant for why we shouldn't cast lots today?


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 11, 2004)

There is a Biblical way of casting lots and an unBiblical way. Compare Pur in Esther with the example you noted from Acts, for instance. See also the Westminster Larger Catechism's expostion of the Third Commandment. These matters were discussed recently in this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7516#pid112016


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Dec 11, 2004)

While I'm not prepared to state that there are zero appropriate uses for the lot today, I am certain that it's _purely_ religious use has all but vanished. This is why: use of the lot in the days of the Bible (both Old and New Testament) involved a direct appeal to God for infallible guidance, "Those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased" (WCF 1.1). It borders on the presumptuous for us to assume that, in matters of moment, God will relieve us of the task of biblical decision making, as we just toss the matter "upstairs" into his lap. Desperation might make us willing to use the means of lot, but how exceptional that would have to be!

Even the choice of Matthias (Acts 1) is quite a special circumstance, as well as falling within the era of special revelation. I think it would be a grave error for a church (for instance), following suit, to pull the name of its new minister out of a hat--whether a pool of 100, or 20, or 2 eminently qualified men--and say, "We know this one's the best for sure! Thus said the Lord!" God could be judging the church's reckless presumption...

On the other hand, using the lot to make a choice, and recognizing that such a choice necessarily involves uncertainty as well as providence, is not in and of itsef a sinful act. "Shortest straw drives, longest one gets shotgun." "Heads Hyway 60, tails Hyway 40." That's providence, sure as life. However, we still do not know infallibly that this was the best thing we could have done, the best means of choosing, or that God was most pleased by that selection in those circumstances.


----------



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Even the choice of Matthias (Acts 1) is quite a special circumstance, as well as falling within the era of special revelation.



So you would say then that lots ended with the completion of the canon?


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 11, 2004)

Yes, I believe that the Word is Final. We don't need lots today - just good exegetes.


----------



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> Yes, I believe that the Word is Final. We don't need lots today - just good exegetes.



What about a decision where exegesis doesn't give you the answer (i.e. choosing between 2 very equivalent seminaries). What about when you don't have a clear answer either from Scripture or from the council of your elders?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Dec 11, 2004)

But exegesis does help us _generally_ in all our decisions. The better we know the Word, the wiser we are in all of life's decisions. 

Is flipping a coin really the best way to make your final decision between the two? Or do you have to buckle down a little more, do a little more homework, visiting schools, examining curriculum, judging professors, self-analysis, asking hard questions of people who have been here/there for guidance, etc, etc.

But no matter what, if you do flip and go with that choice, while you can be sure of God's prescriptive will (i.e. whatever _does_ happen _is_ predestined) you can never be sure God approved of your haphazard way of making the selection. In the days of continuing revelation, the lot was both useful and necessary for the church under age. Today, since we are thoroughly equipped and have everything necessary for life and godliness (including wise biblical decision-making), we are not to depend to any significant degree on the lot. Today's lot is no infallible guide to God's smiling blessing.


----------



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Is flipping a coin really the best way to make your final decision between the two? Or do you have to buckle down a little more, do a little more homework, visiting schools, examining curriculum, judging professors, self-analysis, asking hard questions of people who have been here/there for guidance, etc, etc.




Contra,

I've been looking at seminaries the past few moths, visiting them, talking with students, professors, my elders, my close brother and sisters, examining curriculums, prices, etc. As of now, I have absolutely no idea which one I should choose, and the choice needs to be made ASAP. I do believe that through continued study, prayer and fasting that the Lord will make known to me where I should be.

As I was talking with a brother about this, the issue of lots came up, and I didn't have a biblical case for why we cannot use lots in our decision making today. If there isn't one, then why shouldn't we biblically use the casting of lots in certain decisions?

So, to follow up on your comments, you've said that making a decision based on the casting of lots would be a _"haphazard way of making the selection."_ Why? Obviously this assumes what you need to prove, i.e. that lots are not to be used in decision making today. 

I would like to see a formal argument if you could, from the Scriptures to prove that _"Today's lot is no infallible guide to God's smiling blessing."_


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 11, 2004)

I am of the opinion that there are today valid occasions under weighty or extraordinary circumstances for the proper and Biblical use of lots. 

See this paper called Considerations on Lots by John Mason for further elucidation: http://www.covenanter.org/JMMason/masononlots.htm


----------



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

Paul,

First of all, thanks for the advice on the charts. I'm working on doing that and still in the process of accessing. But one question with regard to one of your statements:




> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> The casting of lots doesn't mean that the outcome will be beneficial, for you (in the narrow sense of the "better" school).



Would this have been true for the disciples in Acts 1 as well? What assurance did they have that Matthias was truly the "best" choice? Also, was this the same way lots worked in the Old Testament? If so, why cast lots at all? 

I'm admitting my ignorance on lots here (which is why I haven't prayed and flipped a coin for seminary). I don't know how lots functioned in the Old Testament, and I'm not sure how they fuction in the New either. What Scriptures can we look at to shed more light?


----------



## Monergism (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I am of the opinion that there are today valid occasions under weighty or extraordinary circumstances for the proper and Biblical use of lots.
> 
> See this paper called Considerations on Lots by John Mason for further elucidation: http://www.covenanter.org/JMMason/masononlots.htm



Thank you. That paper is full of information! I will get to digging as soon as I can.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Monergism_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



You're welcome!


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> ...But, the lot casting may not choose the best school for you. Maybe God will want you to learn to not cast lots and so the lot you pick will be a school that wasn't the best for you. God's will would be done. You would pick a school. But your original question as to deciding between Schools (with the hidden assumption, I'd supose, is that you want to go to the best school) would not be answerd. The casting of lots doesn't mean that the outcome will be beneficial, for you (in the narrow sense of the "better" school).
> 
> 
> Why don't you chart out what you want in your education. Make it detailed. Then put the competeing schools into the diagram (the appropriate ones into the sections you've created). See which school is in more sections. If two end up tying and so are equal in scholastic pay-off, then choose "lesser things." Such as weather, location, closer to friends and family, etc. Think about what you want in these areas. Make a chart. then put the two competing schools into this chart.



EXACTLY.

Careful on those lots!


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 11, 2004)

> Would this have been true for the disciples in Acts 1 as well? What assurance did they have that Matthias was truly the "best" choice? Also, was this the same way lots worked in the Old Testament? If so, why cast lots at all?



Brett, go back to the initial question surrounding having the canon completed...


----------



## Puritanhead (Dec 30, 2004)

We should cast lots for that impressive theological library that C. Matthew McMahon has in all his pictures. He has too many books-- he won't miss them.


----------



## Scott (Dec 30, 2004)

Casting lots is not necessarily an appeal to special revelation. The thinking behind it may be that God proveidentially controls all its outcomes. That seems to be the thrust of Proverbs 16:33: "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Proverbs 16:33 is as true after the close of the canon as it was prior to its close.

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Scott]


----------



## Scott (Dec 31, 2004)

Paul: I have never used a lot and would not recommend it for others. Although, I would be interested to know Andrew's position and plan to read the paper at some point.


----------



## andreas (Dec 31, 2004)

Lev 16:8 "He is to cast lots for the two goats--one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat." 

Num 26:55 "Be sure that the land is distributed by lot." 

1 Chron 24:5 "They divided them impartially by drawing lots, for there were officials of the sanctuary and officials of God among the descendants of both Eleazar and Ithamar." 

Jonah 1:7 "Then the sailors said to each other, "Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity." They cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah." 

Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles." 

Prov 18:18 "Casting the lot settles disputes and keeps strong opponents apart." 

Prov 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." 

We are now kings and priests,we have the bible, and more importantly we have direct access to the throne,so we do not need lots to find out the will of God,for as Pro.16:33 says, EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.

andreas.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 1, 2005)

God makes himself known in ways that do not undermine the sufficiency of Scripture or the completeness of the canon. Such ways include his works of creation and providence. The right use of lots is enjoined in the third commandment as expounded by the Westminster Assembly. Scripture is in fact replete with examples that show this proper use, which do show themselves bound to an age when miracles occurred or special revelation was continuing. Following are two divines who find a lawful use for them today.

Thomas Ridgeley, _Commentary on the Larger Catechism_: 



> 4. It is farther observed in this Answer, that men take the name of God in vain, by sinful lots. This subject, however, needs explanation. Let it be considered, then, that when lots were an ordinance, by which God in an extraordinary manner determined things which were before unknown, they being an instituted means of appealing to him for that end, as in the case of Achan and others, were not to be used in a common way; for to have used them so would have been a profaning of a sacred institution. But as this extraordinary ordinance has now ceased, it does not seem unlawful, so as to be an instance of profaneness, to make use of lots in civil matters; provided we do not consider them as an ordinance which God has appointed, in which we think we have ground to expect his immediate interposition, and to depend upon it as if it were a divine oracle. In this view it would be unlawful, at present, to use lots in any respect whatsoever.



John Mason, _Considerations on Lots_:



> When is the lot proper?
> 
> In cases of importance; which cannot be decided by other means in the exercise of our reason; and for the prevention or termination of strife.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ivan (Jan 1, 2005)

Andrew,

You are an incredible source of information. As a former reference librarian, I stand in awe!


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> Andrew,
> 
> You are an incredible source of information. As a former reference librarian, I stand in awe!



Thank you, brother!


----------



## Ivan (Jan 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Ivan_
> ...



Would you mind sharing your educational background? I believe I call that you said your father was a professor.

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Ivan]


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



That's right. The Lord has blessed my family in many ways, and I'm praying for them in other respects. 

My father is a professor of anthropology. He was also a Rhodes scholar. He has written pieces which are published in USAToday on all sorts of topics, but generally dealing with pop culture. 

My brother is a permanent student, or so it seems. He got a PhD in an interdisciplinary field that combined math, artificial intelligence and biology (cognitive and neural systems). He then graduated from Harvard Medical School and is on his way to becoming a radiation oncologist. 

My mother is a registered nurse. 

They are very gifted, but not believers. 

I graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill with a BA in English. I also have a paralegal certificate. That's about the extent of my credentials. I like to read and write and consider myself a student of history. I have self-published some poems and written some published articles. I was a product of the public school system so don't hold that against me. I am homeschooling my children and hope to teach them that true wisdom is found first and foremost in God's Word. With that foundation, I hope they will learn much more and put what they know to use in the service of Christ's kingdom.

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


----------



## larryjf (Jan 1, 2005)

I casted a lot, and it told me to post in this thread.
But it didn't tell me what to say 

I find the Acts 1:26 reference interesting because this happens before the Holy Spirit comes upon the apostles.
I also find it interesting that they chose Matthias as the 12th apostle with the lot, but it seems that God wanted Paul instead. So i'm not so convinced that this is an example of casting lots working to discern God's will - maybe why that's the last record of it in the NT.


----------



## Scott (Jan 3, 2005)

"How should the lot be conducted? 

As it is an act of worship, the glorious majesty of Him with whom they have to do, should be present to the minds of the worshipers."

An act of worship? That is surprising. How common was the view that casting lots was an act of worship?

BTW, the other parts were helpful and made sense.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2005)

I can say how it shouldn't be conducted...

The mennonites and amish (sorry, I have some background here, LOOOONNGGG Story!) cast lots for ministry positions, they place a piece of paper in a hymnal, mix them up, and have the men each choose a hymnal, TADA...your next minister!

The glitch is...not all the men get to choose a hymnal...the men are chosen by vote or ministry...so you are always guarenteed that the next minister or deacon or bishop will be the son of a minister or someone of import in the congregation...and no one who is first or second generation into the church will EVER see the pulpit! ARGH! (Can you tell I have had issues with this or them or whatever?)


----------



## Arch2k (Sep 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I am of the opinion that there are today valid occasions under weighty or extraordinary circumstances for the proper and Biblical use of lots.
> 
> See this paper called Considerations on Lots by John Mason for further elucidation: http://www.covenanter.org/JMMason/masononlots.htm



This is a great article, thanks Andrew!


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...


----------

