# Ice bucket challenge.



## jambo (Aug 22, 2014)

The ice bucket challenge seems to have taken off big style. I've known a few ministers and friends and even my own son have had the water tipped over them. I'm just wondering if anyone on the PB has been nominated and if so, did you pay up or go through with it. You can even post it for us to enjoy or share your pain.


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## Tim (Aug 22, 2014)

There are concerns that this organization funds embryonic stem cell research:

AFA - The ALS Challenge kills babies

Pouring Cold Water on the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge | Dr. Georgia Purdom's Blog

What’s wrong with the ALS bucket challenge?

These links pertain to the US association. One of my friends pointed out that the Canadian organization may be different in their funding and I do not know anything about other countries.


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## Free Christian (Aug 22, 2014)

I get what goes on with charities trying to raise awareness but with so many youtubing, twittering or whatever else goes on with everything people do these days when they do something its sort of creating the opposite mindset amongst the world populations to 1 Corinthians 1's teachings. It raises money for good I know and im not totally rubbishing it all, its just that everything charitable people do these days seems to need to be seen and shouted from the rooftops.


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## jwithnell (Aug 22, 2014)

I haven't been that comfortable with all this either for the reasons stated above.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 22, 2014)

I think the idea sounds dumb.

"Hmm... let me think of some stupid act and say that if you care about a given cause then you'll do that stupid act in order to prove your support."

I'm not such a sheep as to go along with such stupidity.


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## Tim (Aug 22, 2014)

SolaScriptura said:


> I think the idea sounds dumb.
> 
> "Hmm... let me think of some stupid act and say that if you care about a given cause then you'll do that stupid act in order to prove your support."
> 
> I'm not such a sheep as to go along with such stupidity.



In some ways, it is similar to those "chain letters" of years past because it relies on a form of peer pressure to keep the chain going.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 22, 2014)

Tim said:


> In some ways, it is similar to those "chain letters" of years past because it relies on a form of peer pressure to keep the chain going.



Agreed, Tim. As well, I have the concerns that you mentioned in #2, above (with respect to the use of embryonic stem cells). 

I was talking to my children about this yesterday and said that, as a matter of principle, just as I've never responded positively to a chain letter, I do not yield to such pressure to support certain causes. It's somewhat like what I say to phone solicitors: "my wife and I give regularly to our church and other causes that we support and do not do so on the basis of phone solicitations." 

Peace,
Alan


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## Jack K (Aug 22, 2014)

This does have a chain letter feel, and I generally don't respond to those, or to phone, doorbell, or email solicitations. The addition of dumping a bucket of ice water on one's head seems to increase the appeal only for those who're trying to beat summer boredom... or maybe for those who subconsciously feel an urge to _do something_ to prove to themselves that in their heart they are good people. But true righteousness is not so easily proven, nor the cost of winning it so light.

However, an exception to my say-no-to-solicitations rule is when one of the kids I teach does the asking. The other day, a 9-year-old girl from my Sunday school class did the bucket challenge. My cynicism left me, and I appreciated her cute video and the kind intent behind it. Had she challenged me (she didn't!), there's even a chance I'd be out today with a video camera rolling and bucket in hand. One could take the challenge, I would think, without passing along the "chain letter" and without self-justification in the heart. And it seems there are ways to donate that show mercy to ALS sufferers without funding stem cell research.


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## jambo (Aug 22, 2014)

If I was nominated I just would not do it. I feel it's almost like giving because someone is pointing a gun at you. However everyday more and more folk, celebrities, politicians included, are going ain't wth it.

However, it is part of growing trend that is going to affect our young people more and more in days to come. Social media is now a huge part of a young person's life. Walk into a room with a few young people in it and they are not talking to each other but all have their eyes on their phones as they send messages or watch youtube clips posted on their Facebook page. If they are talking, within a few seconds the phone indicates a message has been received or something posted tha needs their attention. There is a pressure now for young folk to respond, conform etc to such nominations. I know that down through all centuries Christians have been under pressure to conform to the world around them. But now it's stepped up a gear as pressure is now being applied from cyberspace, which is unseen by parents.


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## Mindaboo (Aug 22, 2014)

I posted on my Facebook that I would not do it before anyone did challenge me. My daughter posted a link about the use of embryonic stem cells for the research, so I posted that article along with the reasons why I would not participate. I've seen several friends post links to organizations you can donate to that do not use embryonic stem cells. I still won't do the challenge. I don't like cold water or peer pressure.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 22, 2014)

In my effort to not appear like the stereotype of the mean Reformed guy, I abstain from offering my opinion.


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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 22, 2014)

jambo said:


> Ice bucket challenge.


Stuart was there an agenda here? You were wanting our Presbyterian friends to get used to large volumes of water?


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## Andres (Aug 22, 2014)

Jack K said:


> The other day, a 9-year-old girl from my Sunday school class did the bucket challenge. My cynicism left me, and I appreciated her cute video and the kind intent behind it. Had she challenged me (she didn't!), there's even a chance I'd be out today with a video camera rolling and bucket in hand.



I know you already know this, but adults shouldn't always pander to children. Children can, and should, be told no on occasion. If a child I knew asked me to do the challenge, I would respectfully decline and use it as a teaching opportunity to explain the importance of the sanctity of life and not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing when giving.


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## Edward (Aug 22, 2014)

Stephen L Smith said:


> You were wanting our Presbyterian friends to get used to large volumes of water?



As long as it is poured and the Trinitarian form followed, the volume doesn't matter.


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## Free Christian (Aug 22, 2014)

I sometimes wonder if others from the other side of the world are trying to mess with our Aussie minds. Christmas in the hottest part of our year with temps often around the 30's to 40c singing songs about dashing through the snow and snowmen. Now an ice bucket challenge in our winter when we do actually have snow!


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## Jack K (Aug 22, 2014)

Andres said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > The other day, a 9-year-old girl from my Sunday school class did the bucket challenge. My cynicism left me, and I appreciated her cute video and the kind intent behind it. Had she challenged me (she didn't!), there's even a chance I'd be out today with a video camera rolling and bucket in hand.
> ...



Depending on the teacher and kid involved, the better thing to model might be a humble willingness to join in the fun and/or show an interest in the activities they're interested in. In my case, I do LOTS of scriptural analysis of stuff with kids, and generally I could stand to be less full of myself. Given who I am and how I usually act, none of them is likely to get the idea that I'm a guy who just panders to them. I'm very much their teacher and I run a pretty tight ship.

If one of those kids _were_ to dare to challenge me I certainly might discuss the sanctity of life issue or, even more likely, the concern I have that some people are practicing self-righteousness through the challenge. I'm just saying it's also possible (unlikely, given my arrogance, but possible) that I might decide, somewhere along the way, to dump a bucket of water on my head.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 22, 2014)

So, sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake about social media, pop culture, and the like. But, this ALS ice water challenge makes no sense to me. I think the African boy in the picture gets it just about right. And, following the crazy Americans and their fad or agreeing with this perfectly sensible third world commentary, I find myself saying . . . in the immortal words of Delmar in "O Brother Where Art Thou" . . . "Okay... I'm with you fellas" (the Africans, NOT the Americans!). 

It reminds me of the 1970s bummper sticker: "Honk if you love Jesus" which inspired the counter sticker: "Tithe if you love Jesus, any fool can honk." If the identification included a sacrificial financial gift, then THAT would have impressed me. But, doing the challenge INSTEAD of giving the money takes me back to the picture of the African boy in the photo cited.

In my mind "fund raising" is a thoroughly serious business, not a fad or a gimmick. Raising money for good and important causes deserves our best efforts and most thoughtful attention. The charitable giving Jeanette and I do is some of the most important work we will ever do. This past week, Jeanette and I met with a capital campaign manager for our congregation's new effort. If he proposed anything as silly or unsubstantially gimmicky as the ice water challenge, I would have walked out.

Like pledge per mile fundraisers and other "creative" ways of getting people's attention and interest, I'm perfectly fine with throwing ice water on your head to raise money. But I do not understand the logic of throwing ice water on your head to AVOID making a contribution. Yes, the "viral" aspect of it in social media is dramatic and that is what pushes it along and has drawn public attention to the issue out of the clutter of other worthy causes and bringing in more than $40 million (and counting). Still, Ice + $$$ = sacrifice; Ice + selfie = indulgent.

On another point, while it did not enter into my initial reaction to the ice water challenge per se, I do agree with Kevin McCullough that this particular charity is not one for a pro-life person to support. See his "The ALS Challenge Kills Babies." I do NOT support creating human life to use for lab experiments, particularly when adult stem cells are also available. As McCullough notes: 



> Embryonic stem cell research has proven zero percent effective in combating diseases like ALS and other neurological degenerative diseases.
> 
> Adult stem cells--which can be harvested from living humans without them being killed--have on the other hand--proven vastly effective in making progress towards slowing down and in some cases seeing remission or reversal of degenerative defects.



Even if you do not go all the way with McCullough's argument, I would suggest that there might be other charities that would be worthy of your charitable support that do not involve things morally offensive to a Christian conscience.

[For instance, here are some ALS researchers that do not use embryonic stem cells: 
ALS Therapy Development Institute
John Paul II Medical Research Institute
Midwest Stem-Cell Therapy Center]


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## Jack K (Aug 22, 2014)

DMcFadden said:


> If the identification included a sacrificial financial gift, then THAT would have impressed me. But, doing the challenge INSTEAD of giving the money takes me back to the picture of the African boy in the photo cited.



I thought it _was_ about doing both; that people also gave a gift. Still, the whole bucket of ice water thing sounds pretty silly to me, too.


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## jambo (Aug 23, 2014)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Stuart was there an agenda here? You were wanting our Presbyterian friends to get used to large volumes of water?





I did actually think of making some reference to this in the original post but decided not to. However, I knew that it was only a matter of time before someone else would do so.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 23, 2014)

Jack K said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > If the identification included a sacrificial financial gift, then THAT would have impressed me. But, doing the challenge INSTEAD of giving the money takes me back to the picture of the African boy in the photo cited.
> ...



My kids have explained to me that when you "challenge" someone, they have a set period of time to either pour the water on their own heads OR pay $100 to the [embryonic stem cell supporting] ALS charity. The idea is that you challenge 3 people and the result will be that some folks would rather donate than get iced. With more than $40 million raised, I guess that they are correct in their assumption.

It all reminds me of the scene in Blazing Saddles when the sheriff points a gun at his own head and tells the crowd to desist or he would shoot the sheriff. I have been "challenged" and do not intend to succumb to the peer pressure of icing myself or giving to a charity with which I have moral problems.

ALS is a vicious and ugly disease (e.g., Steven Hawking), as deserving as any disease to receive research funding. But, is it any more vicious and ugly than certain forms of bone cancer or pancreatic cancer? It is amazing to me to see how social media, fads, and the equivalent of a flash mob phenom can mobilize otherwise sensible people to move in a particular direction at the same time.

Since I retired last month, it is even more important to watch the $$$. We already have several ministries we support on a regular basis, and a few on a once per year practice, in addition to our church. Adding one that uses embryonic stem cells . . . ain't gonna happen.


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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 23, 2014)

Free Christian said:


> I sometimes wonder if others from the other side of the world are trying to mess with our Aussie minds.


Well Brett, the All Blacks did mess with the Wallaby minds last night. In this kiwi's humble opinion they did a pretty good job too


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## jambo (Aug 24, 2014)

I have to laugh as my wife has just discovered that she has been nominated. Despite what I wrote above, I must confess I am disappointed she is refusing to go through with it.


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## Peairtach (Aug 24, 2014)

Take the "Quietly open a monthly standing order and give to sick kids or persecuted Christians or another good cause, Challenge"


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## jambo (Aug 24, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> Take the "Quietly open a monthly standing order and give to sick kids or persecuted Christians or another good cause, Challenge"



Good thinking.


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## Free Christian (Aug 24, 2014)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Well Brett, the All Blacks did mess with the Wallaby minds last night. In this kiwi's humble opinion they did a pretty good job too


  Yeah, we gotta throw you guys across the ditch a bone or two now and then. Besides, its the Haka, that's unfair, it'd freak anyone out Ill give you that one though.
Hey Stephen I reckon its time we from south of the Equator return the favour to those from across the globe. I suggest the creation of the Heater Wall Challenge where they stand in front of a stack of heaters on the hottest day of the year wearing fur coats and we make up Tropical Day where they are made to go outside and sit in lounge chairs wearing shorts and Hawaiian shirts whilst its snowing and pretend to sunbake!


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## OPC'n (Aug 25, 2014)

I agree!!! i think doing anything to raise money to help ppl with diseases is very ungodly.....shame shame! 

Also, it doesn't look like the ALS organization is convinced about stem cell therapy and they are also concerned about the ethical issues of embryonic stem cells.link

"Overview

The discovery that human embryonic stem cells can be isolated and propagated in the lab with the potential of developing into all tissues of the body is a major medical breakthrough. But it has raised ethical concerns. Stem cells are also present in adults, scientists now find. If there were a way to stimulate resident stem cells to replace dying cells, the limitations of transplantation could be overcome, as well as the ethical issues."

That's just the overview statement there's an article to read too.


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## Free Christian (Aug 25, 2014)

Hi Sarah. To me its not the issue of raising money to help people in need but the mindset it creates amongst the general population. And its a growing trend to have people "seen" for what they do these days as opposed to how God wants us to do our charity works. I have come across people raising money for things and stopped to donate only to be told by them "no, you have to do this or buy that from us". I have replied to them "no, I just want to give you a donation to help it" and believe it or not they have declined my offer! Seriously, unless I did it the way they wanted they would not take my donation! If someone came to me and asked me to do a dance and make a donation along with posting it on youtube I would say no, but here's some money for the charity you represent.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 25, 2014)

I have this problem with ice water...
[video=youtube;WfO8LR_VosI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfO8LR_VosI[/video]


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## Free Christian (Aug 26, 2014)

That poor guy, no wonder he uses so much Old Spice, he cant wash himself properly!


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## jerubbaal (Aug 26, 2014)

This thing has really taken on its own life in social media, to the point that it's really more about belonging to the trend than the research/fundraising/whatever. It's weird thinking about the ways our children are compelled by the media environments they live in differently than our own - quite honestly, it's a different game now. Conformity and belonging, which were crushing forces even in my HS days (when cellphones were just on the rise and not _everybody_ had one yet), have, through social media, gained a frightening transcendance that I find it genuinely difficult to understand. This is just how things go now - they catch and spread with compelling force.


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## lynnie (Aug 26, 2014)

Have you ever been to Hurricane Harbor when the giant bucket tips over?

https://www.google.com/search?q=hur...actions%2Fhook%25E2%2580%2599s-lagoon;400;400

My daughter thought it would be a super fun way to meet the challenge, so she went with a friend to stand under the bucket. 40 bucks each to get in, 25 to park, 18 for a locker, and rediculous food prices. (They had a fun day and I had no idea about the stem cells).

It does remind me of the book "Extraodinarily Popular delusions and the Madness of Crowds." Rather frightening if it was something anti Christians.


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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 26, 2014)

Free Christian said:


> Besides, its the Haka, that's unfair, it'd freak anyone out


I am not a fan of the Haka myself. Like the KJV bible it needs updating  That was cheeky 

But I do like your Northern Hemisphere challenge


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## joejohnston3 (Aug 26, 2014)

Tim said:


> There are concerns that this organization funds embryonic stem cell research:
> 
> AFA - The ALS Challenge kills babies
> 
> ...



I have had a problem with this since I saw it on Facebook and I will add another article concerning the issue as it hits a lot of why I am against it.

Nathanael King: Why I Cannot Accept the Ice-Bucket Challenge


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