# Scottish Presbyterian Collar?



## Romans922

Is there such a thing as a Scottish Presbyterian Collar?

A missionary in Peru told me that the missionaries down there wear collars. To be all things to all people because down there Roman Catholicism is strong. So to reach the people they wear collars, but they say it is different than a Roman Catholic collar, it is they say a Scottish Presbyterian Collar. I have never heard of such a thing, what do the board's historians say on this?


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## LawrenceU

I have a friend who pastors a church in Scotland. When he wears a collar it is either a band or a collar which has a wider 'tab' than what most RC priests wear. I don't know if there is 'rule' or not.

-----Added 12/8/2008 at 02:05:46 EST-----

Here's a blog which discussed this 

Do You Wear the Cloth? « Backwoods Presbyterian


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## Christusregnat

Romans922 said:


> Is there such a thing as a Scottish Presbyterian Collar?
> 
> A missionary in Peru told me that the missionaries down there wear collars. To be all things to all people because down there Roman Catholicism is strong. So to reach the people they wear collars, but they say it is different than a Roman Catholic collar, it is they say a Scottish Presbyterian Collar. I have never heard of such a thing, what do the board's historians say on this?



The Geneva Bands used to be worn by all Reformed ministers; they are symbolic of the 10 Commandments:

geneva bands - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Geneva bands

Cheers,


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## Romans922

Christusregnat said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there such a thing as a Scottish Presbyterian Collar?
> 
> A missionary in Peru told me that the missionaries down there wear collars. To be all things to all people because down there Roman Catholicism is strong. So to reach the people they wear collars, but they say it is different than a Roman Catholic collar, it is they say a Scottish Presbyterian Collar. I have never heard of such a thing, what do the board's historians say on this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Geneva Bands used to be worn by all Reformed ministers; they are symbolic of the 10 Commandments:
> 
> geneva bands - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
> Geneva bands
> 
> Cheers,
Click to expand...


Would that be considered a Scottish Presbyterian Collar? (the picture that is)? 

Or would one looking like a Roman Catholic collar be considered that?


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## R. Scott Clark

this is the Protestant "dog" collar:







The Roman tab collar:


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## Christusregnat

Romans922 said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there such a thing as a Scottish Presbyterian Collar?
> 
> A missionary in Peru told me that the missionaries down there wear collars. To be all things to all people because down there Roman Catholicism is strong. So to reach the people they wear collars, but they say it is different than a Roman Catholic collar, it is they say a Scottish Presbyterian Collar. I have never heard of such a thing, what do the board's historians say on this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Geneva Bands used to be worn by all Reformed ministers; they are symbolic of the 10 Commandments:
> 
> geneva bands - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
> Geneva bands
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would that be considered a Scottish Presbyterian Collar? (the picture that is)?
> 
> Or would one looking like a Roman Catholic collar be considered that?
Click to expand...


If I'm not mistaken, these are the tabs that would be worn on the "dog" collar pictured above.

Cheers,


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## LawrenceU

I have a friend that makes the following observation regarding the different collars. If it takes two people to put it on it is for protestants. If it takes only one is is for RC priests. They don't have wives.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

But seriously what are the good or bad arguments for collars from both Scripture and Reformed Confessions?


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## N. Eshelman

There are some American Presbyterians that wear collars as well. I believe that the WPCUS wears them as well as some of the other micros. 

The Free Church (continuing) wears them as well... at least in Scotland. I saw a picture of their presbytery once and it surprised me. 

Anyone wear one?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I have considered it but have not done very much research into it. My Pastor wears one when he preaches and when he does visitations.


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## LawrenceU

I'm not Presbyterian, but there are occasions when I wear a collar. For instance, it really helps at the hospital if you have to visit during non-normal hours.

Now, ducking from fellow Baptists pitching stones.

Also, let me clarify something: I wear more than just the collar. Just wanted to make that clear. One never knows.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian




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## Christusregnat

LawrenceU said:


> Now, ducking from fellow Baptists pitching stones.



Before they cast stones, let them look up John Gill's photos:

Image:John Gill.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Benjamin Keach:

Image:Benjamin Keach.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

etc.

-----Added 12/8/2008 at 03:37:21 EST-----



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> But seriously what are the good or bad arguments for collars from both Scripture and Reformed Confessions?



Benjamin,

The ministers of the Old Covenant were all robed in official garb, in order to mark them out as "superiors" to whom the people ought to look for instruction in the law and holiness.

In the days of our Lord, teachers of the law wore similar garb to mark them out as voices to be listened to. You will notice that the Apostle Paul could be cited in a crowd as one of these teachers:



> Acts 13:14-16 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.



Everywhere Paul went, he was detected as a teacher, as a Rabbi. I will let you figure out how.

The Reformed ministers all understood this, but our modern egalitarian way has overrun the historic and biblical practice of clerical garb.

Cheers,


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## Marrow Man

Christusregnat said:


> Before they cast stones, let them look up John Gill's photos:
> 
> Image:John Gill.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Benjamin Keach:
> 
> Image:Benjamin Keach.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> etc.



I would also add:






What name is given to those sorts of collars? Are those like the "Scottish collars"?


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## Classical Presbyterian

I "converted" over to wearing collars for preaching and public services at other locations back when I was serving a church in Texas. It was for several reasons, some personal, some theological. First, I wanted to be done with attempting to look like a banker or lawyer. Second, I longed for a way to demonstrate that worship is not a casual thing to be taken lightly. Third, I wanted to visibly represent the teaching office, so I paired a collar shirt with my Geneva gown.

The other reasons were more mundane. I hate ties and having to try to 'outdo' with fashion and I abhor the very idea that the Lord's Day has anything to do with the business world or stock holder meetings. The collar did a nice job of taking away any careless ideas (at least of mine) that what we do when we come to a place of worship is an everyday thing.

Since I moved to Pennsylvania I have been slow to wear the collar. The congregation I now serve was previously led by a pastor who did not even wear a robe much of the time and who liked to roam around while he preached. So, my staying in the pulpit, berobed and such was quite enough of a difference!

It is my goal to get back to wearing the collar on a regular basis. If anything else, it prohibits visitors getting the impression that worship should be a 'jam session' or a casual gathering of fashionable people doing what comes easiest.

In the closet, I've got my armada of gray shirts, crisp white collars and metal tabs just waiting for me to get the guts to set them loose on the world...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

but why is this in "cults/world religions"?


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> but why is this in "cults/world religions"?



My thoughts exactly.
Is it because Presbyterians are a cult? Or could it be because it's related to practice in another part of the world?


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## LawrenceU

Phew, I'm glad my collars are Baptist. I wouldn't want to be in a cult.


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## Grymir

The Cult of Catholicism down in Peru? I couldn't post if it was in the pastoral concerns forum.

As a layman, I like Pastors to where the full garb. It does show reverence. And my Pastor is My shepard. I expect him to act/dress as such. Blue jeans and a shirt just don't cut it. It shows his lack of reverence.

Wear the Collar, be proud, and lead us sheep!


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## N. Eshelman

Grymir said:


> It does show reverence. And my Pastor is My shepard. I expect him to act/dress as such....
> 
> Wear the Collar, be proud, and lead us sheep!



Why not have a shepherd's staff then? 






Frankly, I do not think that there is any NT evidence that the ministry is to be in any extra garb. Those things went out with the Old Covenant.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

What I would like to know is when did the "garb" go out of style in the Covenanter world? Because it seems at least the Geneva Gown was to be found in 100% of the Presbyterian/Reformed World.

By the way what has been the tradition in the Dutch Tradition?


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## N. Eshelman

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> What I would like to know is when did the "garb" go out of style in the Covenanter world? Because it seems at least the Geneva Gown was to be found in 100% of the Presbyterian/Reformed World.
> 
> By the way what has been the tradition in the Dutch Tradition?



Here is a quote from Nathaniel Pockras' blog (he is an RP and a good RP historian): 

*"While reading today from the Reformed Presbyterian (one of two RPCNA denominational magazines in the 1840s and 1850s), I read an article by then-future RP minister J.L. McCartney, father of the prominent Presbyterian preacher Clarence Macartney. This article consisted of travel notes as McCartney travelled in Europe, primarily in Scotland, where he met Miss Catherine Robertson, the future Mrs McCartney; in many of these paragraphs, he deals with religious questions. Here's a quote from a year in the late 1850s (don't remember the year for sure), perhaps 1859:

The "badges of idolatry"—gown and bands—are worn by all Presbyterian clergymen, except Cameronians [RP Church of Scotland]."*

The Covenanters were never into these collars and dresses. My pastor wears one, I know of a few others who do, but historically this was not the practice in the Covenanter church. 

As for the Dutch tradition: I have never been to a Dutch Reformed service (HRC, FRC, URC) where the pastor wears one. I heard that they used to wear 'preaching pants' which was black with pin stripes. (My pastor was given Prof. Van Tils preaching pants from Van Til as a little joke. He still has them. Pastor Lanning said there were still Dutch mints in the pockets when he got them!). Some of the old school NRC guys wore tails on their coats when they preached. 

I think my good friend, Julio, who is an Eastern Orthodox seminary instructor, summed it up best- "We are all in vestments, it just happens that a suit is the protestant vestments!" 

Point well taken.


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## Galatians220

nleshelman said:


> The Free Church (continuing) wears them as well... at least in Scotland. I saw a picture of their presbytery once and it surprised me.


 
...But not here, not in the Presbytery of the United States.


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## N. Eshelman

Galatians220 said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Free Church (continuing) wears them as well... at least in Scotland. I saw a picture of their presbytery once and it surprised me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...But not here, not in the Presbytery of the United States.
Click to expand...


Right. I know a number of the ministers, and have never seen them wear one.


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## Igor

LawrenceU said:


> Now, ducking from fellow Baptists pitching stones.


Well, I am a Baptist and I introduced the subject in my Church . The thing is that the others seem to be reluctant to wear it, so I have to be persistent at least for the big Church holydays and the Lord Supper. I myself always wear it while preaching.
In other Churches they somehow prefer "traditional" suit and tie; very few ministers wear a tab collar for funerals or for the Easter and Christmas services.


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## Marrow Man

It isn't a collar and this is a bit  but...

We have an African couple (from Ghana) attending our church. I wear the "Protestant vestments" of a suit/tie. One Lord's Day they gave me a present: a beautifully-colored stole (lots of reds, greens, and yellows). It has no symbols or any sort of liturgical color symbolism. I am very much anti-liturgical seasons/colors and the like, but I have worn this on a couple of times in worship, mainly out of respect for the couple. Would any of you have a problem with wearing this?


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## Romans922

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> but why is this in "cults/world religions"?




As someone already said, it stemmed out of a Roman Catholicism thought.


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## R. Scott Clark

> As for the Dutch tradition: I have never been to a Dutch Reformed service (HRC, FRC, URC) where the pastor wears one. I heard that they used to wear 'preaching pants' which was black with pin stripes. (My pastor was given Prof. Van Tils preaching pants from Van Til as a little joke. He still has them. Pastor Lanning said there were still Dutch mints in the pockets when he got them!). Some of the old school NRC guys wore tails on their coats when they preached.



I believe that the Dutch Reformed ministers used to wear a sort of swallow-tail coat, not unlike a tuxedo. That practice existed in the 19th century continued, in some quarters, through the mid-20th century.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Romans922 said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> but why is this in "cults/world religions"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As someone already said, it stemmed out of a Roman Catholicism thought.
Click to expand...


Actually the Romans stole (no pun intended) the tab collar from the Anglicans.

-----Added 12/9/2008 at 06:46:13 EST-----

It runs in my mind that Kim Riddlebarger said once on the WHI that he wears a Geneva gown. Can anyone confirm this?


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## LawrenceU

> It runs in my mind that Kim Riddlebarger said once on the WHI that he wears a Geneva gown. Can anyone confirm this?



Yep. He does. If you go to the church website you will see him in the pulpit wearing a gown with Doctoral bars.

I think all the members of WHI preach in a robe.


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## Classical Presbyterian

nleshelman said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does show reverence. And my Pastor is My shepard. I expect him to act/dress as such....
> 
> Wear the Collar, be proud, and lead us sheep!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not have a shepherd's staff then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I do not think that there is any NT evidence that the ministry is to be in any extra garb. Those things went out with the Old Covenant.
Click to expand...


I only would use a shepherd's staff when working with the kids. Great idea! (But I'd hope I did not look like the dorky guy in the picture...)


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Too late Toby...


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## Marrow Man

nleshelman said:


> Why not have a shepherd's staff then?



When I first saw that photo, I instinctively thought of someone at a Benny Hinn "Crusade" tossing away his cane....


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## R. Scott Clark

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> but why is this in "cults/world religions"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As someone already said, it stemmed out of a Roman Catholicism thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually the Romans stole (no pun intended) the tab collar from the Anglicans.
> 
> -----Added 12/9/2008 at 06:46:13 EST-----
> 
> It runs in my mind that Kim Riddlebarger said once on the WHI that he wears a Geneva gown. Can anyone confirm this?
Click to expand...


Yes, he does. Mike now preaches in a black Genevan gown. I do - when I'm preaching at Oceanside URC or in other pulpits where it is the practice. Danny Hyde preaches in a black Geneva gown. 

The real questions are whether there is a ministerial office in the church and whether it is appropriate for the minister to wear some symbol of that office? The Reformed in the 16th and 17th century answered yes to both questions. As far as I can tell the principal reason for abandoning the uniform attached to the office was democratic, egalitarian, second-great- awakening revivalism.


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## N. Eshelman

R. Scott Clark said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As someone already said, it stemmed out of a Roman Catholicism thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Romans stole (no pun intended) the tab collar from the Anglicans.
> 
> -----Added 12/9/2008 at 06:46:13 EST-----
> 
> It runs in my mind that Kim Riddlebarger said once on the WHI that he wears a Geneva gown. Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, he does. Mike now preaches in a black Genevan gown. I do - when I'm preaching at Oceanside URC or in other pulpits where it is the practice. Danny Hyde preaches in a black Geneva gown.
> 
> The real questions are whether there is a ministerial office in the church and whether it is appropriate for the minister to wear some symbol of that office? The Reformed in the 16th and 17th century answered yes to both questions. As far as I can tell the principal reason for abandoning the uniform attached to the office was democratic, egalitarian, second-great- awakening revivalism.
Click to expand...


My understanding was that the gown was taken from the academy and was to represent the role of the teacher, and was not related to the office, per se, but a cultural symbol of one who teaches? 

This is still seen to some degree in the academy, but mostly during graduation, when men wear their full teaching garb. (Do you have a photo of you in yours that you could share?) 

So, I am not sure that it is so much the office, but the teacher, aspect of teaching-elder.


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## Christusregnat

LawrenceU said:


> Phew, I'm glad my collars are Baptist. I wouldn't want to be in a cult.





-----Added 12/9/2008 at 02:58:24 EST-----



nleshelman said:


> So, I am not sure that it is so much the office, but the teacher, aspect of teaching-elder.



By the bye, as I mentioned here or somewhere else, this is why Paul and Barnabbas were recognized as rabbins in the synagogues: they wore teacher's garb.

Cheers,


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

R. Scott Clark said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As someone already said, it stemmed out of a Roman Catholicism thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Romans stole (no pun intended) the tab collar from the Anglicans.
> 
> -----Added 12/9/2008 at 06:46:13 EST-----
> 
> It runs in my mind that Kim Riddlebarger said once on the WHI that he wears a Geneva gown. Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, he does. Mike now preaches in a black Genevan gown. I do - when I'm preaching at Oceanside URC or in other pulpits where it is the practice. Danny Hyde preaches in a black Geneva gown.
> 
> The real questions are whether there is a ministerial office in the church and whether it is appropriate for the minister to wear some symbol of that office? The Reformed in the 16th and 17th century answered yes to both questions. As far as I can tell the principal reason for abandoning the uniform attached to the office was democratic, egalitarian, second-great- awakening revivalism.
Click to expand...


Do the TFU have anything to say on the matter Dr. Clark?

And does this discussion have underlying it how we understand the number of offices in the Church? (i.e.- whether or not the Minister is a separate office from the Ruling Elder)


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## R. Scott Clark

> My understanding was that the gown was taken from the academy and was to represent the role of the teacher, and was not related to the office, per se, but a cultural symbol of one who teaches?



Yes, this is true. Luther adapted the black academic robe in the 1520s. He needed an alternative to priestly vestments. He adapted the black robe, which has ironically come to be known as the Genevan gown. Even more ironically, so much do some Lutherans hate us that they won't wear it! That's just stupid, of course.



> This is still seen to some degree in the academy, but mostly during graduation, when men wear their full teaching garb. (Do you have a photo of you in yours that you could share?)



There are some photos on facebook, I think. There might be some on wscal.edu. My doctoral robes are red and blue. My genevan robe is very simple and unadorned.

The loss of distinctive clerical clothing is symbolic of the erosion of the minister's office.

Yes, I favor the three-office view. You can see it defended in John Armstrong, ed. The Compromised Church. Derke Bergsma laid out a version of the three-office view there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christusregnat

Joshua said:


> And Jesus as well."Rabbi," "Master," "Good Teacher," or examples of him teaching in the Temple, etc. I think there's a way of recognizing Jesus' authority, even if one had not yet met him or seen him teaching in the temple.



Excellent point! I was avoiding the WWJD, because someone would pipe up with Veggie Tales themed music and say "Well, that's cuz He was Messiah" or something like that.

Cheers,


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