# Polemics against Rome?



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

Hi everyone! I wish everyone a blessed Lord's Day!

I'm looking for books that are polemical in nature arguing against the Romish church.

I have "The Roman Catholic Controversy" by James White, but I found it to be rather superficial on some topics.

I'd like something which is very meaty and systematically and rigorously goes through the major doctrines of Rome one by one and gives a full rejoinder.

I've read "Roman Catholicism" by Loraine Boettner which was excellent, yet many of his arguments address the body of doctrine present at the time of the Vatican I council.
It was written before the Vatican 2 council which introduced and redefined numerous doctrines. An updated version of the book would be ideal. I noticed there are many anti-Protestant and anti-Reformed polemical works written by Catholic apologists in the past 10-30 years, yet almost nothing of vice versa! That is a real shame.

I also have read "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History" by Webster. This book was good and addressed some Vatican 2 doctrine, yet I feel he was often holding back and I wanted a more polemical work.

BTW, I've just ordered "Earnest Hours, to Which Is Added: The Bible True, and Infidelity Wicked -And- Rome Against the Bible, and the Bible Against Rome" by Plumer.

You can download the highly regarded "Evangelical Theological Perspectives on Post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism" by Leonardo De Chirico as his PhD dissertation here: https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/2934796/401303.pdf


----------



## RaderSDG00 (Sep 25, 2022)

Acts of the Council of Trent with the Antidote - John Calvin

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

RaderSDG00 said:


> Acts of the Council of Trent with the Antidote - John Calvin


Thanks. Anything by Luther?


----------



## RaderSDG00 (Sep 25, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Thanks. Anything by Luther?


I don't think there's anything by Luther that fits your criteria of "something which is very meaty and systematically and rigorously goes through the major doctrines of Rome one by one and gives a full rejoinder." I could be wrong though. Perhaps someone more studied in this area could chime in. I'd start with that work by Calvin.


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

RaderSDG00 said:


> I don't think there's anything by Luther that fits your criteria of "something which is very meaty and systematically and rigorously goes through the major doctrines of Rome one by one and gives a full rejoinder." I could be wrong though. Perhaps someone more studied in this area could chime in. I'd start with that work by Calvin.


No worries!


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 25, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Hi everyone! I wish everyone a blessed Lord's Day!
> 
> I'm looking for books that are polemical in nature arguing against the Romish church.
> 
> ...


Leonardo De Chirico also runs the Reformanda Initiative which includes a variety of resources including a podcast https://reformandainitiative.buzzsprout.com/

Gregg Allison's book 'Roman Catholic Theology and Practice : An Evangelical Assessment' has been praised in Reformed circles and Dr Chirico devotes one of his podcasts to this work.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Leonardo De Chirico also runs the Reformanda Initiative which includes a variety of resources including a podcast https://reformandainitiative.buzzsprout.com/
> 
> Gregg Allison's book 'Roman Catholic Theology and Practice : An Evangelical Assessment' has been praised in Reformed circles and Dr Chirico devotes one of his podcasts to this work.


Much thanks. The podcast looks wonderful. I ordered the Allison book!


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 25, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Much thanks. The podcast looks wonderful. I ordered the Allison book!


My pleasure brother. I actually started a thread on this a few years ago. You may find some of the other recommendations helpful. https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/informative-books-on-roman-catholicism.99202/

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phil D. (Sep 25, 2022)

Leonardo De Chirico,_ Evangelical Theological Perspectives on Post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism_

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

Stephen L Smith said:


> My pleasure brother. I actually started a thread on this a few years ago. You may find some of the other recommendations helpful. https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/informative-books-on-roman-catholicism.99202/


Excellent! BTW, I've written some Reformed poetry I wanted to share with the group, but I'm not sure which sub-forum is appropriate for that.


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 25, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> I've written some Reformed poetry I wanted to share with the group, but I'm not sure which sub-forum is appropriate for that.


Go to Litery Forum and look for the sub forum 'poetry and song' 





Poetry and Song


A Forum for the Discussion of song and poetry and to share your own original works.




www.puritanboard.com

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phil D. (Sep 25, 2022)

For an older, comprehensive, well-organized English language polemic against Tridentine Catholicism, Willet's _Synopsi Papismi_ is a classic.


----------



## Stephen L Smith (Sep 25, 2022)

Phil D. said:


> For an older, comprehensive, well-organized English language polemic against Tridentine Catholicism, Willet's _Synopsi Papismi_ is a classic.


I'm sure it is a classic but be aware that it may not help with understanding Rome post Vatican II.


----------



## Phil D. (Sep 25, 2022)

Stephen L Smith said:


> I'm sure it is a classic but be aware that it may not help with understanding Rome post Vatican II.


Tridentine Catholicism is still foundational to Roman Catholicism as a whole.


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 25, 2022)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Go to Litery Forum and look for the sub forum 'poetry and song'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much thanks!


----------



## LadyCalvinist (Sep 25, 2022)

R. C. Sproul wrote something on Roman Catholicism.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## RamistThomist (Sep 25, 2022)

LadyCalvinist said:


> R. C. Sproul wrote something on Roman Catholicism.


Sproul is probably the best short book on it

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Before (Sep 25, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> I've read "Roman Catholicism" by Loraine Boettner which was excellent, yet many of his arguments address the body of doctrine present at the time of the Vatican I council.
> It was written before the Vatican 2 council which introduced and redefined numerous doctrines. An updated version of the book would be ideal. I noticed there are many anti-Protestant and anti-Reformed polemical works written by Catholic apologists in the past 10-30 years, yet almost nothing of vice versa! That is a real shame.


This is interesting and is a polemic in and of itself since Rome 'allegedly' does not change.


----------



## Rome2Geneva (Sep 26, 2022)

I would also recommend reading some of Rome's primary sources as well as Her approved dogmatic theology manuals. I've found that understanding your opponent's position as deeply as possible really sharpens your apologetics against them. I would recommend the Catechism of the Council of Trent, Certain papal bulls and encyclicals such as _Pastor Aeternus, Mystici Corporis Christi, and Divino Afflante Spiritu. _I would also recommend _Sources of Catholic Dogma _by Denzinger and _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma _by Van Ott.

Having this foundation allows you to read post Vatican II sources so as to familiarize yourself with just how much the "unchanging church" has changed over the last 60 years.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## retroGRAD3 (Sep 26, 2022)

I believe this is the Sproul book being referenced: 


https://www.ligonier.org/store/are-we-together-hardcover

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 26, 2022)

Before said:


> This is interesting and is a polemic in and of itself since Rome 'allegedly' does not change.


Indeed!


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 26, 2022)

Rome2Geneva said:


> I would also recommend reading some of Rome's primary sources as well as Her approved dogmatic theology manuals. I've found that understanding your opponent's position as deeply as possible really sharpens your apologetics against them. I would recommend the Catechism of the Council of Trent, Certain papal bulls and encyclicals such as _Pastor Aeternus, Mystici Corporis Christi, and Divino Afflante Spiritu. _I would also recommend _Sources of Catholic Dogma _by Denzinger and _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma _by Van Ott.
> 
> Having this foundation allows you to read post Vatican II sources so as to familiarize yourself with just how much the "unchanging church" has changed over the last 60 years.


Thanks. I've ordered the catechism as well as _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma _by Van Ott!


----------



## RamistThomist (Sep 26, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Thanks. I've ordered the catechism as well as _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma _by Van Ott!



That's good. The official _Catechism of the Catholic Church _is the single best resource. It's fairly cheap and well-organized.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 26, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> That's good. The official _Catechism of the Catholic Church _is the single best resource. It's fairly cheap and well-organized.


Thanks! BTW, I just read your blog post on the killing of JFK. I agree with many of your points. The radio program "Coast to Coast AM" has had some great discussions of the case over the years.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## aaronsk (Sep 26, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> That's good. The official _Catechism of the Catholic Church _is the single best resource. It's fairly cheap and well-organized.


I became a protestant after reading it in its entirety when approaching confirmation in high school. You can imagine the stir this caused in my family.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Sep 26, 2022)

aaronsk said:


> I became a protestant after reading it in its entirety when approaching confirmation in high school. You can imagine the stir this caused in my family.


Both sides of my family have been Catholic for generations! My parents became born again (and Protestant) in 1972 sending shockwaves through the families! I thank God for granting them repentance and faith!

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


----------



## ReformedChristian (Sep 27, 2022)

Francis Turretin has some good work on Catholicism.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## alexandermsmith (Sep 27, 2022)

The more modern (and thus relevant to Vatican II) a work is, the more likely it is to hold back I would fear. I actually thought White's book was pretty good and it's what I would recommend to someone who wanted a starter book on the fundamental differences between Christianity and Rome. I would also highly recommend his many debates with RCs which cover individual doctrines.

_The Two Babylons _by Hislop is also a classic work on Rome but focuses on the pagan origins of the system. It's not a systematic theological interaction with Rome. But it's definitely worth reading at some point.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## RArmor (Sep 27, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Hi everyone! I wish everyone a blessed Lord's Day!
> 
> I'm looking for books that are polemical in nature arguing against the Romish church.
> 
> ...


I thought this work by Perkins to be quite insightful-





A Reformed Catholic (eBook) | Monergism


by William Perkinsin ePub, .mobi & .pdf In this book, Perkins sought to give a "declaration showing how near we may come to the present Church of Rome in



www.monergism.com

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ZackF (Sep 27, 2022)

To the OP, are these materials only for personal study and edification? Are you training to engage Roman Catholics?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## jwright82 (Oct 10, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> Thanks. Anything by Luther?


Luther's "Babylonian Captivity Of The Church" is good plus his and Melancthon's student Martin Chemnitz wrote several books on the council of Trent. "Examination Of The Council of Trent" I believe.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## greenbaggins (Oct 10, 2022)

I recommend Sproul's _Are We Together?_ first; then De Chirico's book mentioned by Phil above, then Allison's book _Roman Catholicism_. I do NOT like Boettner's book at all, and not just for reasons of being published pre-Vatican II. He took mystics of the Roman Catholic church as the standard-bearers for it, instead of the Baltimore Catechism and Ludwig Ott. He gets quite a few facts incorrect, and, like so many others in the evangelical world, atomizes Roman Catholicism instead of treating it like a system (this is the substance of De Chirico's outstanding work). Ott is an excellent representative of Thomistic pre-Vatican II theology. As mentioned above, Denzinger's _Enchiridion_ is essential original source material. Get the latest edition (43rd edition) in order to have access to lots of recent bulls and encyclicals. Understanding Catholicism today means understanding the impact of Vatican II and the controversy over its interpretation. To understand the impact of Vatican II, I recommend the following: _What Happened at Vatican II?_ by John O'Malley, and _Vatican II: Renewal Within Tradition_, edited by Matthew Lamb and Matthew Levering, which will give you both sides of the debate today.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> The more modern (and thus relevant to Vatican II) a work is, the more likely it is to hold back I would fear. I actually thought White's book was pretty good and it's what I would recommend to someone who wanted a starter book on the fundamental differences between Christianity and Rome. I would also highly recommend his many debates with RCs which cover individual doctrines.
> 
> _The Two Babylons _by Hislop is also a classic work on Rome but focuses on the pagan origins of the system. It's not a systematic theological interaction with Rome. But it's definitely worth reading at some point.


Thanks!


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

RArmor said:


> I thought this work by Perkins to be quite insightful-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good! Thanks!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

ZackF said:


> To the OP, are these materials only for personal study and edification? Are you training to engage Roman Catholics?


Yes to both questions! Sadly, both sides of my family have been Roman Catholics for hundreds of years. My parents, 2 sisters and I are the only ones who are not Roman Catholics. And in my nuclear family, I am the sole Reformed.


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

greenbaggins said:


> I recommend Sproul's _Are We Together?_ first; then De Chirico's book mentioned by Phil above, then Allison's book _Roman Catholicism_. I do NOT like Boettner's book at all, and not just for reasons of being published pre-Vatican II. He took mystics of the Roman Catholic church as the standard-bearers for it, instead of the Baltimore Catechism and Ludwig Ott. He gets quite a few facts incorrect, and, like so many others in the evangelical world, atomizes Roman Catholicism instead of treating it like a system (this is the substance of De Chirico's outstanding work). Ott is an excellent representative of Thomistic pre-Vatican II theology. As mentioned above, Denzinger's _Enchiridion_ is essential original source material. Get the latest edition (43rd edition) in order to have access to lots of recent bulls and encyclicals. Understanding Catholicism today means understanding the impact of Vatican II and the controversy over its interpretation. To understand the impact of Vatican II, I recommend the following: _What Happened at Vatican II?_ by John O'Malley, and _Vatican II: Renewal Within Tradition_, edited by Matthew Lamb and Matthew Levering, which will give you both sides of the debate today.


Thanks. _Are We Together? _arrived last week!


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

jwright82 said:


> Luther's "Babylonian Captivity Of The Church" is good plus his and Melancthon's student Martin Chemnitz wrote several books on the council of Trent. "Examination Of The Council of Trent" I believe.


Thanks!


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 13, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> I'm looking for books that are polemical in nature arguing against the Romish church.



Pope Francis's Twitter account.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


----------



## retroGRAD3 (Oct 13, 2022)

I just started reading George Salmon's "_Infallibility of the Church". _It seems like it could also be a good book on the topic.

James White also wrote a book called "Mary, Another Redeemer?" which was an informative read to me.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## retroGRAD3 (Oct 13, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> Pope Francis's Twitter account.


Funny, but also true.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> Pope Francis's Twitter account.


LOL


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> I just started reading George Salmon's "_Infallibility of the Church". _It seems like it could also be a good book on the topic.
> 
> James White also wrote a book called "Mary, Another Redeemer?" which was an informative read to me.


Thanks! Just ordered White's book!


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 13, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> I just started reading George Salmon's "_Infallibility of the Church". _It seems like it could also be a good book on the topic.



George Salmon was a very brilliant man; I read some of his personal papers in the Old Library at Trinity College Dublin.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## totorodaisuki (Oct 13, 2022)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> George Salmon was a very brilliant man; I read some of his personal papers in the Old Library at Trinity College Dublin.
> 
> 
> retroGRAD3 said:
> ...


I just purchased that book by Salmon on Kindle! Can't beat the price, 99 cents!!!
https://www.amazon.com/Infallibility-Church-George-Salmon-ebook/dp/B008QO3F72

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## retroGRAD3 (Oct 13, 2022)

totorodaisuki said:


> I just purchased that book by Salmon on Kindle! Can't beat the price, 99 cents!!!
> https://www.amazon.com/Infallibility-Church-George-Salmon-ebook/dp/B008QO3F72


That's the same way I bought it

Reactions: Like 1


----------

