# Judgmental Attitudes in the Church



## Lincolnshire Paul

A pastor of a church I used to go to used to say a statement to the effect of (I don't remember it too clearly) : "Don't NOT join the church because it's full of hypocrites -We have room for one more". 

However, in the current church which I go to, which clearly preaches the Gospel and seems biblical, I've been having problems with some of the Christians in the Church. I had this sort of conversation recently where a brother showed me up in front of other believers about internet piracy in a rather stark manner, as well as some other little things. (Just as a side note, I totally agree with the biblical practice of encouragement, exhoration and rebuke, and know how difficult it can be to do these things with a spirit of gentleness)

The worst thing is that recently I've started to prefer spending time with non-believers, because I don't get the same rather self-righteous attitude coming from them. Is it me who is being prideful and defensive? It's getting to the point where I don't even feel like coming to church anymore.


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## Scott1

I think most believers have had this kind of experience at some time.

Try to understand it from the point of view that God has adopted you into His Body, and the covenant community is quite imperfect, as are you.

You might even have to ask God for grace to serve and love despite other people who profess Christ for a season. (Think of our Lord's experiences with His disciples).

Learning to get along is part of a lifelong process of sanctification, something that is commanded, but our Lord is most patient and longsuffering.


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## Tim

Now you have an opportunity to go to your brother and gently rebuke/encourage him in the proper way. In doing so, you will demonstrate to him how you wish to be treated. Sometimes a single instance of learning how to act from someone else can go far to instruct a believer who is off track. 

Brother, is it only one person who acts this way, or is it a church-wide problem? 

Finally, if it is to the point where you don't desire to attend church any more, I think you must speak to your elders. Do you have an elder with whom you can comfortably share this?


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## jrdnoland

I feel your pain, no one wants or needs to be treated in a way that is unloving, especially by "fellow believers". We all need to be disciplined at some point and it is the most loving thing to do, but it needs to be done in a spirit of love, forgiveness and humility.

I think if it was me I would point out the scriptures and describe the ways we are to approach this subject. I would thank them for caring enough to correct me but also tell them that the way they corrected me came across as hard and unloving. Ask if that was their intention. That might open up a dialog and help both parties.


The Pattern and Basis for Discipline

(1) The discipline of the church is first patterned after the fact that the Lord Himself disciplines His children (Heb. 12:6) and, as a father delegates part of the discipline of the children to the mother, so the Lord has delegated the discipline of the church family to the church itself (1 Cor. 5:12-13; 2 Cor. 2:6).

(2) Discipline is further based on the holy character of God (1 Pet. 1:16; Heb. 12:11). The pattern of God’s holiness—His desire for the church to be holy, set apart unto Him—is an important reason for the necessity of church discipline. The church is therefore to clean out the leaven of malice and wickedness from its ranks (1 Cor. 5:6-8). A failure to exercise discipline in the church evidences a lack of awareness of and concern for the holiness of God.

(3) Church discipline is to be patterned after and based on the divine commands of Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6). We have numerous passages of Scripture which both command and give us God’s directives on the how, why, when, and where of church discipline. Again, a failure to exercise this responsibility demonstrates a lack of obedience and belief in the authority of the Bible (1 Cor. 5:1-13; Matt. 18:17-18; Titus 3:10; 2 Thess. 3:6-15; 1 Tim. 5:20; Gal. 6:1).

(4) Another basis for the necessity of church discipline is the testimony of the church in the world (1 Pet. 4:13-19). The world observes the behavior and life of the church. When the church acts no differently than the world, it loses its credibility and authenticity (1 Pet. 2:11-18; 3:8-16; 4:1-4).


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## Tim

It may also be useful to study circumstances of public rebuke:



> Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.



and private rebuke:



> Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.



and the reasons for 'escalating' the rebuke:



> Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
> Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


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## Galatians220

I think judgmentalism and legalism are the two Achilles heels of Reformed congregations. 

Here's an extreme example: a few years ago, I had a Reformed pastor tell me in private, "It's only the saved who attend the evening worship on the Lord's Day. The unsaved attend in the morning and don't come back." _All righty!  _He must have been either privy to the Lamb's Book of Life - or extremely deluded.

During my 40 years in Catholicism (34 as more than a baby/little kid), I was mostly treated very well and I made a lot of friends, many of whom I'm still in affectionate contact with. Irish-American Catholics, especially, are known for being hale fellows, well met, albeit following a false Gospel. In the last ten years in Reformed congregations, though, I've had prayer requests ignored to the point that I don't make them anymore; I've been backstabbed by women to the extent that at times, I've had no flesh left there; I've been thrown out for no good reason; I've been ridiculed before an entire congregation for my support of the KJV. That's just the start. I've been sniffed out for "heresy," as has everyone else, so often that there's nothing left to find, for I've learned to keep my opinions and doctrinal beliefs strictly to myself unless I wish not to be fenced out when Communion is observed in a church I've been attending. Even then, I'm very guarded. I, too, seek out others for friendship, _bonhomie _and other amenities of a social life. One *MUST* give to his/her Christian brothers and sisters and so I do: I pray for them and respond to their physical needs, but at this point, I expect nothing back.

I don't know why so few of the Reformed see that Christian love is to be practiced by *actions *and not just given a nod and a smile when it's preached from the pulpit or read about in the Bible or another book, only to be forgotten an hour later. Not "feeling" love for a Christian brother or sister does not abrogate the command to love in word and in deed. _I wonder who said that originally..._

Please pardon me if I've offended anyone; I'll probably delete this sometime today anyway.

Margaret


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## christianyouth

Ms. Margaret, I think some people who have psychological issues(read: miserable people) are drawn to militant expressions of the faith. I'm serious. JBaldwin who grew up in the same movement I did, and others who were raised IFB or micro-presbyterian can testify to finding some interesting specimens in these movements. Hmmmm, thanks for sharing that experience.

Tim, great verses.


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## Galatians220

christianyouth said:


> Ms. Margaret, I think some people who have psychological issues(read: miserable people) are drawn to militant expressions of the faith. I'm serious. JBaldwin who grew up in the same movement I did, and others who were raised IFB or micro-presbyterian can testify to finding some interesting specimens in these movements. Hmmmm, thanks for sharing that experience.
> 
> Tim, great verses.



Well, I'm sure every movement has its share of nuts, and I wouldn't be there if this one didn't! The former Catholic in me would have staked a round of Bingo on that!



Margaret


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## Rich Koster

My  Sometimes immature believers like to "show off" some tidbits they have learned, or a discipline they have supposedly mastered. They cause damage because the old man, bearing pride, rubs up against the new nature and tells it "flaunt it". It is good to have learned a discipline or doctrine and apply it. It is damaging to think of yourself more highly than the brother/sister next to you and let them know about it directly or indirectly.


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## Montanablue

Margaret, I grew up in a fundamentalist church and had many of those same experiences. I think Andrew is right. There are some individuals who are drawn to be militant. They can use the reformed faith (or any faith really) to act that out. My experience in reformed circles has generally been much kinder and gentler, but I've mostly visited reformed baptist churches and PCAs. (I don't attend a "reformed" church, although our pastor is a calvinist) I've had friend who have grown up in the "micro Presbyterian" denominations and they also had some of your experiences. Just know that you're not alone. I do hope it will be possible for you to find a congregation with some joy soon. You are such a very joyous person, that I would love for you to be with other people who find true joy in Christ.


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## Jack K

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> A pastor of a church I used to go to used to say a statement to the effect of (I don't remember it too clearly) : "Don't NOT join the church because it's full of hypocrites -We have room for one more".
> 
> However, in the current church which I go to, which clearly preaches the Gospel and seems biblical, I've been having problems with some of the Christians in the Church. I had this sort of conversation recently where a brother showed me up in front of other believers about internet piracy in a rather stark manner, as well as some other little things. (Just as a side note, I totally agree with the biblical practice of encouragement, exhoration and rebuke, and know how difficult it can be to do these things with a spirit of gentleness)
> 
> The worst thing is that recently I've started to prefer spending time with non-believers, because I don't get the same rather self-righteous attitude coming from them. Is it me who is being prideful and defensive? It's getting to the point where I don't even feel like coming to church anymore.


 
Paul, you asked if people in the church are being too judgmental and self-righteous, or if you are being prideful and defensive. The answer is probably "yes."

The church is full of judgmental people who are not content to get their sense of righteousness from Christ, but feel a need to point out others' sin in an unkind way. Some churches have lots of these people and it becomes an unhealthy church culture.

On the other hand, the more deeply you come to know that Christ is _your_ righteousness, the easier it will be for you to not be bothered when your sin is pointed out, even unkindly, and even if the person is actually wrong about your sin. I don't say that to accuse you or to make you feel like a bad Christian. I just want to suggest that one way to deal with the problem you face is to recapture the joy you knew when you first believed and realized you were forgiven. No matter what others say or think of you, God says you are his dearly loved son, a prince in this world, because you are in Christ.

Meditate on that. And find those fellow believers (there always are a few, but you have to search them out) who will give you _that_ kind of encouragement. It's a safe bet you will find, in their company, a fellowship where being open about sin brings repentance without condemnation.


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## jrdnoland

Galatians220 said:


> I think judgmentalism and legalism are the two Achilles heels of Reformed congregations.
> 
> Here's an extreme example: a few years ago, I had a Reformed pastor tell me in private, "It's only the saved who attend the evening worship on the Lord's Day. The unsaved attend in the morning and don't come back." _All righty!  _He must have been either privy to the Lamb's Book of Life - or extremely deluded.
> 
> During my 40 years in Catholicism (34 as more than a baby/little kid), I was mostly treated very well and I made a lot of friends, many of whom I'm still in affectionate contact with. Irish-American Catholics, especially, are known for being hale fellows, well met, albeit following a false Gospel. In the last ten years in Reformed congregations, though, I've had prayer requests ignored to the point that I don't make them anymore; I've been backstabbed by women to the extent that at times, I've had no flesh left there; I've been thrown out for no good reason; I've been ridiculed before an entire congregation for my support of the KJV. That's just the start. I've been sniffed out for "heresy," as has everyone else, so often that there's nothing left to find, for I've learned to keep my opinions and doctrinal beliefs strictly to myself unless I wish not to be fenced out when Communion is observed in a church I've been attending. Even then, I'm very guarded. I, too, seek out others for friendship, _bonhomie _and other amenities of a social life. One *MUST* give to his/her Christian brothers and sisters and so I do: I pray for them and respond to their physical needs, but at this point, I expect nothing back.
> 
> I don't know why so few of the Reformed see that Christian love is to be practiced by *actions *and not just given a nod and a smile when it's preached from the pulpit or read about in the Bible or another book, only to be forgotten an hour later. Not "feeling" love for a Christian brother or sister does not abrogate the command to love in word and in deed. _I wonder who said that originally..._
> 
> Please pardon me if I've offended anyone; I'll probably delete this sometime today anyway.
> 
> Margaret


 

Margaret - I agree with what you are saying, it almost seems that the reformed have all the head knowledge but very little of the heart and love necessary to convey that knowledge to others. I have only been reformed a little while and I believe that theology is vital but it is also vital how you live out that theology and how you deal with others whether saved or not saved.

While there are some exceptions (you can see some very loving people on this board), I find that to be the norm among the reformed, but that is based on my limited exposure to reformed persons.


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## Galatians220

Jeff, yes! You are so right! *This forum is the beautiful, shining exception to what I said above!* I was talking only about Reformed congregations I've physically attended/been a member of. Not all of those by any means qualify as "Christian fellowship wastelands;" I could name names. There are a couple of Reformed Baptist churches around here that are full of lovely people. I just can't take the altar calls (so I guess they're not really so Reformed, but the people are so nice). Also, I don't include the churches I've attended in Grand Rapids. I can't even describe the warm and wonderful Lord's Days we've had while visiting there, for they've been grand beyond words. 

Kathleen, awww, thank you so much! You are so delightful!!!

_(Sometimes it's lonely around here...  )_

Love in Christ to all,

Margaret


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## jrdnoland

Galatians220 said:


> Jeff, yes! You are so right! *This forum is the beautiful, shining exception to what I said above!* I was talking only about Reformed congregations I've physically attended/been a member of. Not all of those by any means qualify as "Christian fellowship wastelands;" I could name names. There are a couple of Reformed Baptist churches around here that are full of lovely people. I just can't take the altar calls (so I guess they're not really so Reformed, but the people are so nice). Also, I don't include the churches I've attended in Grand Rapids. I can't even describe the warm and wonderful Lord's Days we've had while visiting there, for they've been grand beyond words.
> 
> Kathleen, awww, thank you so much! You are so delightful!!!
> 
> _(Sometimes it's lonely around here...  )_
> 
> Love in Christ to all,
> 
> Margaret



Thank you Margaret, I started this thread based on what you said.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/philemon-1-7-a-59761/#post772394


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## Lincolnshire Paul

Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.


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## Grace Alone

I certainly think Tim gave you good advice earlier in the thread to speak with an elder about it. Did you visit other reformed churches before you joined this one? Are there any others nearby?


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## calgal

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.


 
Is it a few toxic people or is it the whole church? If there are other churches around, visiting them and visiting your church might be a good idea.


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## jrdnoland

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.


 
Do not feel like you are wasting anyone's time. As fellow believers part of our purpose is to help each other work though issues.

In addition to the good advice to seek an elder; I feel that you must examine your motives for going to church. 

If this church is acting in an unbiblical way then you have two options; either try to change it or move on. If this church is acting biblically then your only choice is to adjust your attitude and feelings. 

From what you are describing if may be a combination of both things. The wisest course may be seeking out an elder or at least someone in the church that is a mature christian and may be able to give you another perspective on what is going on.

Of course all of the advice given must be added to you spending some time in your prayer closet and asking for God's help in this matter.

I will keep you in my prayers this week.


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## Jared

My brother is an Arminian and one of the reasons that he gives for continuing as an Arminian is the way that reformed people are acting toward the whole ordeal with John Piper and Rick Warren. He likes both of them and can't understand why people are so toxic in the way that they talk about another brother in Christ like that. I have to say that I can see where he's coming from. I think that's one of the things that turned me off to Calvinism. 

And it was John Piper along with Wayne Grudem and Louie Giglio that helped me see the truth of election in the Bible. Those men are different from so many other reformed people that I see. And sometimes I see those same attitudes in myself. We need to learn to love. I know that there's a place for speaking the truth in love and sometimes you have to show someone some tough love. But let's try to do it with grace. I know that many of you don't like Rick Warren, but I think that we all could learn from this twitter post from him:

Ungracious people show they don't really understand the doctrines of grace. GRACE softens your heart, [it doesn't harden] your head.


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## Rich Koster

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.


 
Talk to those who offended you. However, if there is a perceived widespread problem, ask your elders to make time to discuss the issue. Don't give up on Christian fellowship because of a few problems. We all have room to grow in grace.


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## Mushroom

You could always take my tack.... be so curmudgeonly that you couldn't care half a whit about what others think of you, and so thick-skinned that if someone were to 'show me up', I'd in fact probably enjoy it - thick skin makes it hard to scratch where it itches.

I go to Church to worship God first and foremost. Fellowship is a natural extension of that, and I enjoy it, but knowing what a hard cuss I am to get close to, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't, or who might have a negative impression of me. Acknowledging one's own prickliness is helpful in understanding why some folks might not like getting stuck.


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## Montanablue

Brad said:


> You could always take my tack.... be so curmudgeonly that you couldn't care half a whit about what others think of you, and so thick-skinned that if someone were to 'show me up', I'd in fact probably enjoy it - thick skin makes it hard to scratch where it itches.
> 
> I go to Church to worship God first and foremost. Fellowship is a natural extension of that, and I enjoy it, but knowing what a hard cuss I am to get close to, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't, or who might have a negative impression of me. Acknowledging one's own prickliness is helpful in understanding why some folks might not like getting stuck.


 
Brad, I do not mean this to be offensive, so I hope you will not take it in that manner. Perhaps your innate "curmudgeonliness" will help you with that. 

Perhaps I am misreading your statement (I hope so), but it distresses me a bit to see a Christian profess to be so curmudgeonly that they know they're hard to get close to. I think that the way we treat others, particularly our brothers and sisters in Christ, is a part of our worship of God. (Not formal worship, certainly, but I think a way that we show the love and grace of Christ.) I am a very opinionated person who is prone to criticism and when I dislike, disagree with, or feel indifferent to someone, I have a tendency to shrug them off and decide its not worth my time to try to to be friendly or particularly kind. I also have a bad habit of quietly snickering at those with whom I disagreed or disliked. A friend confronted me about this about a year ago, and I realized that I was failing to show the same grace to others that Christ had shown to me. I'm not saying we have to fall all over ourselves to be extraordinarily nice to everyone that walks through the church door (in fact, some people would find this offputting, I imagine!), but I think a certain measure of grace and charity should be shown to all, even those who are difficult to get along with. I realize this is difficult - it does not come naturally to my personality at all.


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## calgal

Montanablue said:


> Margaret, I grew up in a fundamentalist church and had many of those same experiences. I think Andrew is right. There are some individuals who are drawn to be militant. They can use the reformed faith (or any faith really) to act that out. My experience in reformed circles has generally been much kinder and gentler, but I've mostly visited reformed baptist churches and PCAs. (I don't attend a "reformed" church, although our pastor is a calvinist) I've had friend who have grown up in the "micro Presbyterian" denominations and they also had some of your experiences. Just know that you're not alone. I do hope it will be possible for you to find a congregation with some joy soon. You are such a very joyous person, that I would love for you to be with other people who find true joy in Christ.


 
What Kathleen said!


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## Mushroom

Montanablue said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could always take my tack.... be so curmudgeonly that you couldn't care half a whit about what others think of you, and so thick-skinned that if someone were to 'show me up', I'd in fact probably enjoy it - thick skin makes it hard to scratch where it itches.
> 
> I go to Church to worship God first and foremost. Fellowship is a natural extension of that, and I enjoy it, but knowing what a hard cuss I am to get close to, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't, or who might have a negative impression of me. Acknowledging one's own prickliness is helpful in understanding why some folks might not like getting stuck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brad, I do not mean this to be offensive, so I hope you will not take it in that manner. Perhaps your innate "curmudgeonliness" will help you with that.
> 
> Perhaps I am misreading your statement (I hope so), but it distresses me a bit to see a Christian profess to be so curmudgeonly that they know they're hard to get close to. I think that the way we treat others, particularly our brothers and sisters in Christ, is a part of our worship of God. (Not formal worship, certainly, but I think a way that we show the love and grace of Christ.) I am a very opinionated person who is prone to criticism and when I dislike, disagree with, or feel indifferent to someone, I have a tendency to shrug them off and decide its not worth my time to try to to be friendly or particularly kind. I also have a bad habit of quietly snickering at those with whom I disagreed or disliked. A friend confronted me about this about a year ago, and I realized that I was failing to show the same grace to others that Christ had shown to me. I'm not saying we have to fall all over ourselves to be extraordinarily nice to everyone that walks through the church door (in fact, some people would find this offputting, I imagine!), but I think a certain measure of grace and charity should be shown to all, even those who are difficult to get along with. I realize this is difficult - it does not come naturally to my personality at all.
Click to expand...

Aah, Kathleen, no offense taken at all! In fact it warms my heart to see your sincere concern. But I am 50 years old. I'm a far nicer guy than I was 10, 20, 30 years past, and thanks be to God, I have seen changes in my demeanor and behavior over that time, but I am also realistic. I don't shrug people off anymore, and I try not to snicker at people I disagree with or dislike these days (although I definitely have done so in the past, and have to fight the tendency to do so now). The issue is probably that my fallen nature combined with the type of work I do have conspired to make me less diplomatic and tactful than I could be. Construction sites are not places where diplomacy and tact are given much value, so I am not overly practiced in those arts. I recognize this, and don't let it trouble me when more tender personalities steer clear of me. I love them just the same, and maybe loving them means I should cut them more slack for keeping their distance. It's really not a problem, except when my bluntness and terseness offends, so I try to be readily apologetic and mostly keep my mouth shut. I try to let my actions speak louder than my words.

But thank you for your words of encouragement.


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## Montanablue

Thank you for the clarification  I like your comment about being "readily apologetic" - this is so helpful (and hard to do!) I think.


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## Grace Alone

Jared104 said:


> My brother is an Arminian and one of the reasons that he gives for continuing as an Arminian is the way that reformed people are acting toward the whole ordeal with John Piper and Rick Warren. He likes both of them and can't understand why people are so toxic in the way that they talk about another brother in Christ like that. I have to say that I can see where he's coming from. I think that's one of the things that turned me off to Calvinism.
> 
> And it was John Piper along with Wayne Grudem and Louie Giglio that helped me see the truth of election in the Bible. Those men are different from so many other reformed people that I see. And sometimes I see those same attitudes in myself. We need to learn to love. I know that there's a place for speaking the truth in love and sometimes you have to show someone some tough love. But let's try to do it with grace. I know that many of you don't like Rick Warren, but I think that we all could learn from this twitter post from him:
> 
> Ungracious people show they don't really understand the doctrines of grace. GRACE softens your heart, [it doesn't harden] your head.


 
Jared, I think this is important. When I am around those who might be seekers or baby believers and they make a positive comment about Rick Warren (usually in reference to his book, etc.), I would never be as critical as I might feel free to be on here. I might try to suggest another book that might be more biblical, but I do not see it as appropriate to attack a brother in Christ to someone who would not understand. There are many worse preachers on TV than Rick Warren. I think we do need to be charitable and guide people to better things as we have opportunity. When I have a family member show interest in spiritual things, the last thing I want to do is shoot down their inteterest unless it is something clearly dangerous (as in not Christian).


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Paul,
I empathize with your situation. I really do. I have been there. For many years I struggled with having a sense of belonging within the church. For every judgmental person you meet there will be many more who are very irenic and Christ like in their demeanor. Brother, this gives you four great opportunities; You can pray for those brothers and sisters who upset you so. You can also show grace to them in a very gentle and loving manner. You can also quietly teach them biblical truth. Finally, you can examine your own heart, attitudes and lifestyle. You will be a blessing to them and you will be blessed yourself. I know what it's like to not want to go to worship. I know what it's like to run straight out the door the moment the benediction is pronounced. I know what it's like to wonder why you you find more grace, decency and honesty among the children of this world than among the children of God. I can relate to to the idea that its warmer outside even on a winters day than in the frostiness of the atmosphere within the church building. I know what it is to be cold shouldered by the people of God. I even said one time that I would never set foot in a church again. God has been merciful to me. But I urge you to hang in there with God's needy, imperfect and fickle people. Study the word and bring it all to the Lord in prayer.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Galatians220:
I think judgmentalism and legalism are the two Achilles heels of Reformed congregations. 

Amen sister. How can we move on? How can we learn? I must confess that I am guilty of this. Woe betide anyone whose legalism is different from mine! May God help me to repent and love my brethren well.

PS I am so glad that you didn't delete- then I would have been annoyed.


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## SemperEruditio

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> The worst thing is that recently I've started to prefer spending time with non-believers, because I don't get the same rather self-righteous attitude coming from them. Is it me who is being prideful and defensive? It's getting to the point where I don't even feel like coming to church anymore.





Lincolnshire Paul said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.



Taking both your posts together I can't help but to see that both, you and our brother, are having some pride issues. Now I will say that since you believe your brother rebuked you inappropriately that it is incumbent on you to go back to him and speak with him. He may also be having trouble with pride in how he is seeking to rebuke others.

Yes, yes, yes...we Reformed get a bad rap and usually a much deserved one about how ungracious many of us are. The thing I have noticed in my short stint (1.5yrs) as Reformed and ~5 since God opened my eyes to the DoG is that we are a very cerebral bunch. Many of us never really were the social types and that has carried over into our Christianity. This is not an excuse. I know at the first Presbytery meeting I attended that I was impressed that one of the things the elders agreed that they needed to work on were people-skills. They encouraged us, the guys coming under care, licensure, ordination, that if we are not people-persons that we need to make a conscious effort at working at it.

Your brother who rebuked you needs you as much as you need him. While it may be embarrassing, trust me I will take a terse, tactless brother than a WWJD-clone who is too concerned about my feelings to tell me that I am living in sin and need to repent. I respond to the direct and assertive heck even the aggressive but have trouble with a man tiptoeing around my feelings if it deals with sin in my life. Would I be offended if I was called out in public? No. Like Brad I have some thick skin. It is actually thanks to Rich and bringing the WLC to bear on the 9th Commandment that when I am rebuked openly that I thank God and now presume the best of intentions. It ain't easy but I do not feel slighted when reproved by a brother because I lean toward they are doing it for my good and for the best of intentions. Others see it as naive but I'm not dumb I just chose to not see it as a negative.

Go back to Church. You are receiving the Gospel in Word and Sacrament which is what it's all about. If there are some judgmental people in the congregation then love them anyway and talk to the one who has hurt you. After all we're required to do so Matthew 18:15. I would not leave a congregation that is preaching the word simply because people are behaving like people do. You found that place for a reason...


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## Galatians220

21st Century Calvinist said:


> Galatians220:
> I think judgmentalism and legalism are the two Achilles heels of Reformed congregations.
> 
> Amen sister. How can we move on? How can we learn? I must confess that I am guilty of this. Woe betide anyone whose legalism is different from mine! May God help me to repent and love my brethren well.
> 
> PS I am so glad that you didn't delete- then I would have been annoyed.



What Josh said (the quote from Richard Sibbes, about a godly man being severe with himself and tender over others). 

Donnie, I didn't delete my post D), but now that _*Puppy_ _No. 6* _ up there looks like it still needs a lot of housebreaking, in my eyes, anyway. Truth be told, how many times have I forgotten what the Lord did for me and said and thought critical things of others? Probably way more than I've ever been criticized myself! I would be a putrid embarrassment and forever a shame to the Lord Jesus Christ -- but it was His perfect atonement that guarantees that's not what I am. *We need to grant others that same grace.* With the grace that we've been given, so He'll see to it that we give to others, if we just don't harden our hearts towards them (same as hardening our hearts towards Him, which we should never do).

I think that we need for the Lord to bring us to a certain point in our sanctification and then - only then - will we begin to "love and let live" our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can pray for it and He'll do it for us... And we'll praise Him when we see the blessed change that He has wrought in us! We owe Him that, after all, and _so much more._

Love in Christ,

Margaret


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Indeed the more love we have for Christ the more love we will have for others. 
I am particularly thin skinned and take everything personally. Perhaps, less so now than in the past. I remember hearing a great line from Professor Donald Macleod in a sermon years ago: Criticism only hurts when it's true. At the time I disagreed but now I am not so sure. 
Also we do well to try and encourage others and to help them progress in the faith and knowledge of Christ.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

Reminds me of a quote from Piper that I have to keep re-reading:



> "_I love the doctrines of grace with all my heart, and I think they are pride-shattering, humbling, and love-producing doctrines. But I think there is an attractiveness about them to some people, in large matter, because of their intellectual rigor. They are powerfully coherent doctrines, and certain kinds of minds are drawn to that. And those kinds of minds tend to be argumentative.
> 
> So the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.
> 
> I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again._"
> 
> John Piper



AMR


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## Herald

Lincolnshire Paul said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a counselling thread, but what advice would you give someone who doesn't want to show up for Church anymore because of these attitudes? I am being sincere and don't wish to waste anyone's time, but this is something I haven't ever really encountered before and it's very new for me.



Paul,

Attend church in spite of your feelings. On Saturday evening prepare your heart for worship and to meet with God. If there are certain individuals that you have problems with, prayerfully consider how you can bless them on the Lord's Day. Do you know anything about these people? Can you pray for needs they have or even meet a need directly? It's an amazing thing when you seek to embrace those who you normally like to keep at arms length. Of course, wisdom is needed, and this may not be possible with severely fractured relationships, but with those who we simply don't see eye to eye, loving them in Christ can meet with marvelous and wonderful results. Another thing you can do is evaluate your expectations. What are you seeking to do on the Lord's Day? Fellowship with the saints is important, but you are primarily there to worship God. Keep that as your focal point. Never lose sight of it. Brighten your countenance. In other words:

[bible]Psalm 100:4[/bible]

What I'm trying to do is to get you to look at yourself first. Make sure that your heart is prepared and your mind is set on the worship of God. Love your brothers and sisters in Christ as your would love yourself (Phil. 2:3). This doesn't remedy all relationship problems, but it just might provide you joy and contentment that you seem to be lacking.

What do you do if you still feel things are not getting better with others? You may need to chat with the person. But before you do, determine whether there is a real problem or if your feelings are based on perception. I have a bit more to say about this at the end of this post. Sometimes our personalities just don't click with another person. There are personalities that are like sandpaper with other personalities. It's just that way. Instead of looking for the other person to change, allow yourself to bend first. Display genuine love and humility towards these people. That's right, condescend to them if you must, but without a condescending attitude. Have the attitude of Christ (Phil. 2:5). You may never become bosom buddies, but you just might develop a new found respect and appreciation for each other. If nothing else, you will be at peace with your brother. 

Now, if there are real issues between you and another brother, say an offense done against you, you may have to talk to this brother. I've saved this one for last because I'm guessing, based on what you've said, that the real problem is one of attitude or perception of attitude. But if there is a real issue involved, the desire for Christian peace, and the love for your brother, require you to speak to him. This, also, is to be done in love, looking first to yourself, making sure you have not given the brother reason to be offended. 

Let me close with this. Personality issues exist and will continue to exist within the church until Christ returns. For all our sanctification there is still ego, hubris, and arrogance that we have to contend with. If we're honest, we don't have far to go to look for the source. That is why we are to examine ourselves first. And when it's not us, when it's the other person; deal with them in love, in the way and manner you would like to be treated. 

Blessings.


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