# Calvin or Christ?



## ServantofGod (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry if somebody already has this topic,(new here), but I just can't understand why Calvanists are so cocky. I'm a calvanist,though not by choice, and I see alot of us getting so caught up in these doctrines that we fail to do what truly matters;feeding the hungry, helping the poor, clothing the naked, ect... I have actually found more sincere believers on the Arminian side of the camp. What does Jesus truly desire? Yes His truth is of utmost importance. But where in the Bible are people commended for converting people to Calvinism? No where. It's about living your life for Christ, giving and doing for the least of these. What are we supposed to be? Calvanists, or Christians? 

If Calvinism is a Biblical doctrine, like we claim, and not something we made up, shouldn't we trust the Holy Spirit to lead the Arminians to truth? Who really is our leader, Calvin or Christ?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 27, 2006)

"I'm a calvanist,though not by choice" Man, that is profound Ian.

Arminian churches are incubators for Calvinists. There is some truth in what you have observed, however, to discuss the issues exclusively in terms of calvanists and armenians is to create a false dichotemy. 

You asked too many questions and you really need to think about your questions again for you are assuming the answers in the way you are phrasing your questions.

Calvinism is NOT a biblical doctrine. However, a Calvinist would say that the Gospel is best expressed in the system of doctrines that some call 'Calvinism'. Remember, Calvinism is a loaded term, some folks hear, 'the five points', some folks think it's about predestination.

Ian, you are young and you have plenty of time (God willing), take some time to do some more reading through the threads on this board. Read some of the writings on A Puritans Mind, and then form your questions and even give your analysis. Be patient Ian.


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## MeanieCalvinist (Mar 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> "I'm a calvanist,though not by choice" Man, that is profound Ian.
> 
> Arminian churches are incubators for Calvinists. There is some truth in what you have observed, however, to discuss the issues exclusively in terms of calvanists and armenians is to create a false dichotemy.
> ...



 Very sound advice


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## polemic_turtle (Mar 27, 2006)

Calvin was a follower of Christ, so it'd be like following Paul instead of Christ if we were to follow Calvin as Calvin instead of Calvin insofar as he follows Christ.

*1Co 11:1* _Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ._

I liked what Andrew Fuller said: "I don't believe everything that Calvin taught and nothing _because_ he taught it."


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## ServantofGod (Apr 14, 2006)

Well, I've read around a bit, and I've come to a conclusion. No offense to any one person, but there is a whole lot of arrogance in here. The "We're followers of Calvin's ideas, and we're right, and those messed up Arminians are wrong" attitude seems to rule some people.

Sorry, but thats what I've read.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 14, 2006)

You know,
Calvinists _can_ be pretty arrogant folks. I've met plenty of them. I'm positive that I've not only come accross as arrogant before, but I've actually been arrogant--about Calvinism, about Christianity, about the military... you name it. Pride is a universal vice. And the more you grow in grace, the easier it is to see just how much of it is still left inside you.





What about the claim that, unaffected by any work of regeneration, one chose life in Jesus while another chose to die? For this guy, that one act of his own uninfluenced will separates him from all the pathetic losers who will spend eternity in hell. Kind of arrogant.... I guess its a universal affliction.





Most calvinists I know give sacrificially to their little churches. They keep plugging away in ways that no one sees, that no one on earth recognizes. People who don't love the truth run away and start their own churches. They get hundreds of members with their soft-pedalled gospel. And they give their money to those places, instead of that little calvinist church. So the calvinist church with 100 families, that started that soup-kitshen 100 years ago, had to close it down 40 years ago.

But that church-of-the-watered-down-gospel---they openned one. And the po' folks shuffle in there, get their soup, and maybe a gospel tract. And that church congratulates itself on "doing God's work." And that public ministry gets praised in the newspapers, and on web-boards. And the little calvinist church gets slighted, for being too concerned about truth, and not concerned enough about the poor.

Because they're arrogant, you know...


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## ServantofGod (Apr 14, 2006)

I wasn't making a heart judgment. I was just saying what I noticed around here. I'm not even going to get into the second part of your response.


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## blhowes (Apr 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> If Calvinism is a Biblical doctrine, like we claim, ...


Do you think Calvinism is biblical? (when you use the word 'if', sounds like there's an element of doubt)



> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> ...not something we made up, shouldn't we trust the Holy Spirit to lead the Arminians to truth? Who really is our leader, Calvin or Christ?


There are of course different ways for the Holy Spirit to lead somebody to the truth. He can bring it to a person in the privacy of their own home as they read the scriptures, or He can use other people to teach them. Don't you think we should have the same attitude when we bring the food, clothing, and other things you mentioned to those in need, as when we bring the truth to others? God can use us as instruments in both cases...and in both cases it can be done with the wrong attitudes/motives (sinners that we are)


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## blhowes (Apr 14, 2006)

...and, BTW, welcome to the forum.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> ...



First: Yes I believe that Calvin's teachings are based on God's Word. But then it's not really Calvin's teachings, but Christ's. 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

Second: God has many different ways to reveal truth, and I will always defend the doctrines of grace. It's the attitude that some have that is completely un-Christlike.


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## turmeric (Apr 14, 2006)

One thing you will not find on this thread is perfection - in fact, you won't find it on *any* thread because sinners post on them. So you'll probably find arrogance and bad temper on a lot of them. I have a question for you - how many theology discussion boards have you participated in? From what I've seen, the problem isn't Calvinism - it's amateur internet theologians of all stripes, and yes, we're guilty. The blogosphere and internet forums are full of people with too much time on their hands who often don't actually take time to read and reflect. It's a point-and-click world, not the sort of climate that produced Calvin or Luther or St. Paul.

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by turmeric]


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## ServantofGod (Apr 14, 2006)

You're right of course Meg. I'm sorry for my attitude. I just have a horrible expierence of people trying to shove Calvinism down my throat.(I was only 13, how was I supposed to believe it?) Plus, I have met plenty of Christians whose faith rests on their knowledge of Calvinism, and their lives show no fruit. Please excuse my rantings...


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## DanW (Apr 15, 2006)

I´ve been lurking here since December, and have found this board to be very useful. For example, without it I would never have learned about the lectures available from Covenant Theological Seminary´s web site. 

In February I switched from Armenian to Calvinist. What put it over the top for me was a series of messages I listened to by John Piper on TULIP.

However, I get the distinct impression that the consensus on this board would be that the four following "heretics" are being tormented in hell right now: (listed in the order I've read them):

The dispensationalist C.I. Scofield.
The Roman Catholic St. Therese (the "œLittle Flower").
The Arminian C. S. Lewis.
The liberal Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

All four of the above are heroes of mine. I fully expect to see them all in heaven. And I will thank them all profusely. 

If I took these four plus Calvin, and ranked them by how much each has helped me understand what it is to be obedient to Christ, I would rank Calvin fourth of the five!


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## BobVigneault (Apr 15, 2006)

Welcome Daniel,
It's so good to see you here on the board. It's exciting to hear of your personal 'reformation' in the last three months. It has not been so long for myself and so it's easy to remember my own response to those who espoused (r)eformed and (R)eformed thought. I would get angry and indignant but then go to the scripture and dig for myself and usually come to the conclusion, "Wow, that person is right. How did I miss that all these years?"

I was thrilled as the lights came on and then yes I met a few folks who grew up in a reformed church and I was disappointed to find they took these exciting truths for granted. They seemed to sit around and nit pic and no matter what one would say they would most often be contrarian. I would ask them, "do you realize what God has revealed to you, this is real meat?" It was frustrating at times. 

The key is to keep checking yourself against the scripture and never, never let your theological "filter" spin what the scriptures are saying. Obviously, interpretation is never up to one individual and the main focus of this board is to seek TRUE truth together. This is not a church and it's not conducted as such, but we are all part of the church and so we study, we exhort, we rebuke, we laugh and we grieve all in love. Hopefully we conduct ourselves in a manner worthy of the Gospel. We have feet of clay, we are children of our times, (though some of us are very close to 1517), some are young, some are old and it's pretty hard to find a consensus.

But in debate I believe none of us would push too hard to say a particular person is in hell. We may stir up a debate by expressing something like that but what we are really asking is, "If this person believed certain unscriptural things, then is it a an indication that they were not really regenerate and sanctified?"

I have seen on different web sites the very things you speak of. 'CS Lewis is in hell', 'Mother Teresa is there', insert whomever. On this site the argument is usually directed away from the individual to a more doctrinal context. For example, 'if a person believes that Mary is a co-redemptrix and shares Christ's atoning work, can that person saved'. We know from scripture that even being burned for preaching the gospel or giving all to the poor but without love means nothing. So we will debate 'love'. Isn't 'love' simply God setting his preference on one of the elect? Isn't love the outworking of the Spirit, a sign of the vital connectiveness with Christ.

Now a newbie could look at that argument and summarize it to their friends, "Hey, their saying Mother Teresa is in hell on the PB." Context is everything. Finding shortcomings on the PB or on any board or in any church is like shooting fish in a barrel.

What I believe a person WILL find on the PB is a variety of men and woman who are discontent with the state of that large portion of the church that has embraced the culture, the pattern of this world. We seek orthodoxy (right thinking) and we seek a purity of worship (though we can't agree on how that should be manifested). However we take the 5 Solas very seriously. 

Once again, I am so pleased that you are here Daniel and I look forward to your input.

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> Sorry if somebody already has this topic,(new here), but I just can't understand why Calvanists are so cocky. I'm a calvanist,though not by choice, and I see alot of us getting so caught up in these doctrines that we fail to do what truly matters;feeding the hungry, helping the poor, clothing the naked, ect... I have actually found more sincere believers on the Arminian side of the camp. What does Jesus truly desire? Yes His truth is of utmost importance. But where in the Bible are people commended for converting people to Calvinism? No where. It's about living your life for Christ, giving and doing for the least of these. What are we supposed to be? Calvanists, or Christians?
> 
> If Calvinism is a Biblical doctrine, like we claim, and not something we made up, shouldn't we trust the Holy Spirit to lead the Arminians to truth? Who really is our leader, Calvin or Christ?


When you find the Church or the Internet forum that does not consist of sinful people let me know.

Want arrogant? Try your average teenager who thinks he is experienced, a good judges of character, and well informed in matters of religion and politics. You can find tons of them on most internet discussion boards (I'll point you to a few upon request). Thankfully, they are few and far between here.

From my _limited_ experience, I have found calv*I*nists to be very humble and self-effacing compared to every Christian and non-Christian demographic I have encountered worldwide. Exceptions exist in every group. I speak as one who would be very grateful to God if my parents were Calvinists. As it is, they were Roman Catholic and are divorced. I am the only Protestant in my family by the Grace of God. Calvinism is a treasure to me because, after decades of worrying how I would save myself, I was awoken to the fact that I could only be saved by relying on not my arrogant self-reliance but by resting upon Christ's righteousness alone.

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## ServantofGod (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> .
> 
> Want arrogant? Try your average teenager who thinks he is experienced, a good judges of character, and well informed in matters of religion and politics. You can find tons of them on most internet discussion boards (I'll point you to a few upon request). Thankfully, they are few and far between here.
> ...




You're implying me aren't you? You know, I believe God Himself has a more open ear to my questions then you guys do. I have more support and grace from my arminian friends then I do my calvanist friends. I'm not at all bringing into question any of the truths of the doctrines of grace. But if you were implying me in the above statement, then you proved my point.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by SemperFideles_
> ...


I consider you to be more naive and disrespectful than arrogant.

Were I to imply you directly, however, it would make no such logical point. There is a difference between being cocky and arrogant (something I am very experienced with being a Marine) and pointing out obvious faults in the questions of others. Regarding my statement about teenagers on discussion boards, it is a fact. Most are overrun by them and they are very arrogant. As I said, I have the URL's if you are interested to compare.

If you want better answers to your questions, assume you know less than your elders. Statements like: "Why is this board full of such cocky people? I think this must be true of Calvinism..." are immature. The fact that "it seems to you" that your Arminian peers are more supportive of you does nothing to inform me. It neither changes my mind regarding the Truth of the Scriptures nor does it impress me as my life experience, while limited by some standards, far outstrips yours.

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## ServantofGod (Apr 15, 2006)

How does questioning peoples kindness disrespectful? I am speaking from great expierence about the way some Calvanists are. The satement "Seems to me" proves that it is my veiw, and mine only. It is my expierence, and mine only. I speak for noone but myself. Do you treat all searchers of answers like this? What is the big deal if I've been hurt and I need to vent? I need other Christians to walk me through this not condemn me as being "disrespectful". I have no intention of being disrespectful. We're all spiritual siblings aren't we? Or does my lack of wisdom place me below you?


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> How does questioning peoples kindness disrespectful? I am speaking from great expierence about the way some Calvanists are. The satement "Seems to me" proves that it is my veiw, and mine only. It is my expierence, and mine only. I speak for noone but myself. Do you treat all searchers of answers like this? What is the big deal if I've been hurt and I need to vent? I need other Christians to walk me through this not condemn me as being "disrespectful". I have no intention of being disrespectful. We're all spiritual siblings aren't we? Or does my lack of wisdom place me below you?


The answers to all of your questions are in the Proverbs. You have no "great experience" and, until you admit your relative inexperience and ignorance, any advice I give you will not be useful. I am above no man and love teaching young brothers.


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 15, 2006)

Ian, believe me, I understand what you are saying. 



> 1 Corinthians 8:1
> ... we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.



I have struggled with the apparent lack of charity (a kindly and lenient attitude toward people), a spirit of arrogant smugness and bulldogged righteousness displayed on this and other boards.

... but I am trying desperately to put these ungracious tendencies to death in myself.

There needs to be more grace and forebearance when dealing with brethren that are earnestly seeking - and even bullheadedly ignorant - because we practice a doctrine that is indeed the truest alignment of the revealed character of God and Scripture. This truth should enforce great grace for others, even as God has been long-suffering in our attempts to know Him and be obedient. 



> Matthew 22
> 
> 37And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
> 
> ...



...so I take your words to heart and ask that you agree with me in the desire that we can continue to be justly concerned about the things you posted and at the same time grow in grace and knowledge to be living examples of knowledgable, practical and loving followers of Christ to the glory of God.

Hope this has been helpful and I pray that your heart is not bruised too badly by stern "instruction" as you seek to understand and keep a commitment to the "kind word".

-pax-

-JD

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by jdlongmire]


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 15, 2006)

Ian, I believe you are reading Rich wrong...I do not believe he was implying you. We have had teenagers here and elsewhere that have shown this attitude. I believe what you have shown is your heart and been open with your questions.

Three things with the PB...

1) you will ALWAYS get a VERY direct answer...with this being computer-land, one cannot judge voice or attitude very well...what is meant to be informative or food-for-thought CAN come across as arrogant when it is meant only to be direct.

2) many of these men have been places in their lives you wouldn't imagine, have experience, and have had to learn to defend their positions. But they are gracious (they had to deal with me when I was just coming out of an independant Dispensational church with messianic leanings... ).

3) The ppl on this board take strong stands, and like a bunch of Jewish Rabbis they like a good discussion (debate sometimes). But they also can disagree and still sit and smoke their pipes with laughter with one another afterwards. So what appears as arrogance is sometimes just a strong stand...which is stable in comparison to being swayed by every wind of doctrine. Things do get heated, but we don't forget that we are part of Christ's church.


Here's my comments on the situation...

There are those that have all the "outer workings" that you are listing, and yet think they are doing it of themselves and God is patting them on the back. They seem humble in what they DO, but their pride is arrogance in and of itself (I know, I've been there myself!!! Remember Steve's, "point your finger at someone and three more fingers are pointing right back at you".

There are those that delve into doctrine and all it's intricies and yet denying any outer workings (I will get into my ditch story at the end of this). They take pride in what they've read...but lack any heart.

There are those on both sides that are learning scripture and it's doctrines and through Christ's changing in them are showing forth fruit...

however, the fruit is going to be different for us all. You may bear peaches and I may bear apples. I have never gone with hubby on the street. It's not that I don't have a heart for those ppl, but my fruit has been to be the support for my husband at home and to train my children...that season will pass and something else will be handed my way. As you know, hubby's time on the street had been limited and he is waiting to see what will open to him next. He also has taught Sunday School before, but there was only a season for that. 

We don't know what all others have done...some is done in secret. Those that go proclaiming have their reward. Therefore we must be careful not to judge what a person is doing or not doing, when we may have no knowledge of it.

I can say this though...

Please take the time to learn...don't let your zeal get ahead of what God has to teach you.


The ditch story...

A friend once told me that the Christian walk is a narrow path...not many tell you though that there seems to be a ditch on either side of this path. One is called Legalism and the other is called Liberalism (or being legalistically liberal). Sometimes we run so far from one that we fall blindly or intentionally in the other. Legalistically liberal are those that refuse to do anything with outer workings because it might "appear" legalistic.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 15, 2006)

Ian, you may want to read this thread http://puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5276


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## ServantofGod (Apr 15, 2006)

Thanks for the uplifting JD and Mrs. W. I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant and/or disrespectful Rich. I had no intention to do so. All people are arrogant at heart, both Arminians and Calvanists. As I said before, my issue isn't with the heart, but with the attitude. An Arminian can be the most arrogant person on earth inwardly, but if he is graceful and loving in speech, he'll get my vote.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 15, 2006)

Roger Ian. No sweat. I have a weakness at being impatient with young people sometimes. Forgive me if I was unduly harsh.


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 15, 2006)

Wow Ian...I know how you feel. I being 36 may not relate to you on the same maturity level but believe me when I say I know how you feel. For years I spent all of my time with Arminians because I was a proud Arminian. The predestination stuff was garbage because no god of mine would choose for people to go to hell! 

What convinced me more than anything that Arminianism was correct was what I precieved to be arrogance, or "an attitude" amongst those stuffy Calvinists. They thought they knew it all, they thought their degrees and years of study made them better than others! I would have nothing to do with them!

As the years went forward I noticed something. Many of my warm fuzzy Arminian friends were supporting things I found to be "off the wall". At first it didn't seem so bad. Benny Hinn seemed to help people so it wasn't a big deal if his theology wasn't right on the money. Larry Lea had a National call to prayer so why should it matter if he said some strange things? Do preachers have to be perfect?

This went on for many years. I would begin to read certain books, enjoy certain teachers, etc. but as time went on the things my Arminian brothers and sisters were believing kept getting stranger and stranger. What turned me off completely was when the majority of them began to talk about "carnal Christians". I found that entire notion to be complete foolishness. 

So what was I to do? Where was I to turn? First of all I had to turn to someone who didn't believe in "Carnal Christianity". That would be my first requirement. Well, that's when I found this place! A board full of people who thought "Carnal Christianity" was foolishness. Praise the Lord!

As I got to know people here I argued with a few, namely Paul Manata. He looked to be full of himself standing in front of a picture of Jerasulem burning smoking a pipe! But a funny thing happened....he convinced me of his arguments! He did so by being patient with me, but stubbornly holding to his arguments.

Over time I began to realize that these people with all their education and degrees were the ONLY people I could turn to! The confessions, based on their extensive knowledge of Scripture were the only things I could trust in regard to biblical commentaries. Why here after all this time I learned that it wasn't arrogance that I had seen, but confidence in the TRUTH and insistance upon STUDY rather than FEELINGS when it comes to God and His word.

What happened then was that I began to go back to my Arminian friends and try and convince them of the truth. I tried to share with them what I had learned. However, I was attacked. I was called names, many of the message board moderators even contacted those in charge here and told them that a member of this board was harassing them! Scott Bushey understood what was happening and called me personally to discuss it! I never had an Arminian friend on a message board do that before!

Ian, one of the greatest weapons Satan uses against believers is "anti-intellectualism". He wants to convince believers that education, and intellectualism is prideful and sinful. He wants us to believe that you and I can be as learned as one who dedicates his life to the study of God's word. That's why many Arminian churche's have pastors pulled from the congregation with no training because they "feel" lead by the Lord to make such an appointment.

Arminian churches are not dangerous only because they are not Calvinist. Not at all! They are dangerous because they have no real standards other than what they "feel" and "experience". We must stand on the word of God and the word of God must be taught to us by those who have given their life to it's study with others who have done the same.

Do I make any sense?

Thanks and please contact me if you have a personal concerns.

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by houseparent]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 15, 2006)

Wise words, Adam.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Wise words, Adam.



 

Especially this: 



> They are dangerous because they have no real standards other than what they "feel" and "experience". We must stand on the word of God and the word of God must be taught to us by those who have given their life to it's study with others who have done the same.


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## 3John2 (May 13, 2006)

Add me to that list. I came from a Catholic background. Heard the Word preached at a Baptist church. Eventually left the Catholic church & went WOrd of Faith/Charismatic. I was there for 12 years. Then at a Dake bible forum I met a wonderful Reformed man who started e mailing on some questions I had. He came out of an actual "Dake church" & wound up Reformed & even became a pastor. Anyways he knew MY side & the Reformed side. He didn't knock me or anything on the contrary he encouraged me to continue to SEEK God. I did & he recommended some books. Now here I am. I now am PROUD to say I'm a Reformed christian. A follower of Christ but Reformed in my beliefs ON Christ. I attend a REformed church & I'm EXTREMELY happy. 
I think what bugs people , as it bugged me, is that on the average your "average" Calvinist ( I HATE that term I prefer Reformed) is more THEOLOGICALLY prepared to discuss the Word. Most pentecostals etc have many beliefs but for the most part can't LOGICALLY back many of them up. I found myself like that & I very arrogangly (ignorantly?) THOUGHT I "knew" the Word fairly well. I wound up alone with God one day feeling like a total idiot. THAT was when I made a turn for the better. I admitted I was wrong & repented & God has very graciously opened my eyes. Now I wonder as my fellow brother here posted earlier saying "WHY didn't I SEE that BEFORE?!"
Anyways I'm ramlbing now but I wouldn't say Reformed people are arrogant. The are some of the sweetest people I've met. They were PLENTY patient with me.


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## 3John2 (May 13, 2006)

Also just out of curiosity why do you have a pic of Amy Lee ? I'm a musician so I'm just curious.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by 3John2_
> Also just out of curiosity why do you have a pic of Amy Lee ? I'm a musician so I'm just curious.



See this thread.


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## 3John2 (May 13, 2006)

Ok thanks for that!


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