# Comprehensive Catechism in print



## JM (Apr 21, 2005)

Does anyone know where I can find, in print, the longer & shorter Catechism as well as the Westminster confession in one volume? Does such a thing exist? 

The Newbie....


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## wsw201 (Apr 21, 2005)

You can find it at Great Commissions web site (GCP.org). It also includes all the Scripture proofs written out!


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 21, 2005)

Check the Free Presbyterian Press. They publish just such a volume along with the Sum of Saving Knowledge and a couple other documents of that time. You can probably find it cheapre thorugh a Reformed book seller like heritagebooks.org.


Also, please click the link in my signature to "Signature Requirements." 

[Edited on 4-21-2005 by puritansailor]


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## RamistThomist (Apr 21, 2005)

Ligonier also has the volume that Mr Wylie is thinking of. That book might have been the most useful thing I have read in the past year.


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## ARStager (Apr 21, 2005)

Another thing you might be interested in is _Reformed Confessions Harmonized_ prepared by Beeke and Ferguson, I believe. It has the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, and the Second Helvetic Confession side-by-side according to topic. My great wife got if for me for my birthday.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 21, 2005)

As noted the best volume that fufills what you want currently in print is the Free Presbyterian edition of the Westminster Standards. These are of course the unchanged Scottish texts. They are not perfect though, and eventually I hope to published a corrected text of the WCF and Catechisms making use of the MSS of all three and noting the differences in the various American versions. For the most part the FP edition is a photo reprint of a 19th century edition, but they have swapped out the WCF text for S W Carruthers critical text of 1937. However even Carruthers made some mistakes in that work, and I note some of these in my article in the forthcoming journal, _The Confessional Presbyterian,_ entitled, _Examining the Work of S. W. Carruthers: Justifying a Critical Approach to the Text of the Westminster Standards and Correcting the 18th Century Lineage of the Traditional Scottish Text._ Buy it now! http://www.cpjournal.com


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## Peter (Apr 21, 2005)

Old paths publications has a facsimile reprint of the WCF, WLC, WSC, Directory for public worship and revisions to the 39 articles.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 21, 2005)

Peter is correct; and the OPP facsimile is also available or was on CD as well (but the resolution is not so great). Both are facsimiles of the 17th century text; so be prepared for the funky typestyles and conventions. Interestingly even these early editions had problems in the text.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 21, 2005)

Patrick mentioned the _Sum of Saving Knowledge_ attributed to David Dickson and James Durham (and transcribed by Patrick Simson, George Gillespie's cousin, who raised him after the death of Simson's father). The inclusion of this in the traditional form of the Westminster Standards was through the mistaken belief that it was an official document. This was because of a printing error that implied so. It is simply traditional such as Manton's epistle and some of the other items.

[Edited on 4-22-2005 by NaphtaliPress]


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 21, 2005)

BTW, my favorite edition of the FP text is their first edition of 1958 (the preface refers to a 1933 edition, but this apparently is the Grahmn & Hisop edition out of Belfast which also printed for the Free Church). It is reduced in size (about 5 by 7.5), has a nice heft and is a better carrying around edition. The 1973 edition is similar size but the text of the WCF is the MS text published by Carruthers in 1942. The FP abandoned this for a plain reprint of the 19th century text of Johnstone and Hunter (the fancy 1855 library edition) because they concluded evidently the MS was not necessarily the official text (I agree as I attempt to prove in my article mentioned earlier). Then beginning in the early 1990s they began using the Carruthers 1937 critical text for the WCF. A bit complicated history. They are the only church to publish both the traditional Scottish text (as culminated in the Johnstone & Hunter editions), the MS text of the WCF, and finally the critical text of Carruthers for the same.

[Edited on 4-22-2005 by NaphtaliPress]


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## Arch2k (Apr 22, 2005)

The Free Presbyterian Edition is what we use for Bible study. I find it very helpful to know who wrote the other standards, because so often they are mistaken to be official standards of the divines.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 22, 2005)

It is certainly a good edition; just can be improved upon. Now that I've got the first issue of _The Confessional Presbyterian_ off to the printer, I need to get back to my study of the texts of the WCF and catechisms, a study which indulges two of my faults, pursuing minutia, and collecting books (I am using about 120 various editions of the Standards).


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## Robin (Apr 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> ..._Reformed Confessions Harmonized_ prepared by Beeke and Ferguson, I believe. It has the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, and the Second Helvetic Confession side-by-side according to topic.



 THIS is the one, guys!

Amazon.com: Reformed Confessions Harmonized: Books: Joel R. Beeke,Sinclair B. Ferguson


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## Arch2k (Apr 22, 2005)

Chris,

What is the best history of the Westminster Standards in your opinion. I have Schaff (Creeds of Christendom) and Warfield (Works). I would just like to know where to start for a more in-depth history.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 22, 2005)

Good question. Work has been done of course on the history of the Assembly. On textual matters, the works are fewer, and they are all older works. Warfield is good. Schaff is simply alright and wrong on a few things. The Carruthers are the standard. David Hay Fleming did some work on some minor points. Chad Van Dixhoorn's doctoral dissertation should be a good addition if he publishes it. Chad rediscovered many of the MSS of the Assembly hiding in plain or not so plain sight as it were in the last few years. My article(s) in _The Confessional Presbyterian,_ dig some new ground. My suggestion, if I can continue my advertising mode, is to get the first issue of _The Confessional Presbyterian._ I reference most of the std works there and add my twists/new research. Is this a practical question? Well, perhaps. For instance, when a church is going about to determine what text of the WCF and Catechisms, or the other historical documents, they should use, should they go with a critical approach, or simply use any MSS that have survived? The RPCNA adopted Carruther's critical text of the WCF in the 1940s I think; the OPC, the MSS published by Carruthers in 1942. And I've outlined above the multiple stances of the FPCS in the 20th century.
My article _Examining the Work of S. W. Carruthers: Justifying a Critical Approach to the Text of the Westminster Standards and correcting the 18th century lineage of the traditional Scottish Text,_ attempts to answer that question of how to arrive at the most historically accurate text. Subscribe now! at http://www.cpjournal.com

[Edited on 4-22-2005 by NaphtaliPress]


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## Arch2k (Apr 22, 2005)

Thanks Chris!

The Confessional Presbyterian sounds good. I have looked at it when you first posted it. I hope to get it.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

Perhaps also of interest since this is a thread on the Westminster Standards, I should also mention that my church sells a set of Shorter Catechism Memory cards with the Q/A on one side and one of the scripture proof texts as a memory verse on the other. Many if not most of the children in our church have memorized the 109 Answers to the WSC as well as 109 scripture proofs; some have memorized a second set of 109 scripture verses or over 200 verses. One young lady memorized the Larger Catechism, which one of the men of the church did as well some years back; and one elder is memorizing it now as well. Sorry, no cards for the WLC.
See http://www.fpcr.org/catalog/catalog-online.htm and page down once. 1 set is $4.95 plus s&h. Business card size.


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## Arch2k (Apr 23, 2005)

Our Sunday evening Bible study will be starting the WSC/WLC soon. We will be studying the larger and shorter, and as we study, we will endevour to memorize the shorter. We are all 20 somethings and want to catechise our children. There is also the 1st 20 questions put to song.

I am thankful for the recent discovery of the Westminster Shorter Catechism Project which will be invaluable during this study.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> I am thankful for the recent discovery of the Westminster Shorter Catechism Project which will be invaluable during this study.


Yes; kudos to John Dyck et al for this effort.


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