# A Question on Good Works



## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 22, 2011)

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 

It just puzzles me how Jesus could talk this way. Jesus didn't really mean we could, with the power of God's Spirit, keep His commandments, did He? Obviously Jesus was talking about performing good works, as evidence of being born again -- not letting us rely on _His_ law-keeping in this case. It would be absurdity to suggest Jesus expected _perfect_ obedience to His commandments ("love your neighbour as yourself"), even if we were strengthened by the Spirit. So, I'm left very confused by His words. I wonder how the disciples understood and reacted as they heard those words.


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## jwithnell (Mar 22, 2011)

> not letting us rely on His law-keeping



That is our only hope: that Jesus kept the law perfectly and imputed His righteousness to us.


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## sevenzedek (Mar 22, 2011)

I bet the disciples wrestled with a lot of what Jesus had to say. The people who don't wrestle with what he says do just what those did who left him as soon as he said, "Eat my flesh." The difference between true and false disciples is a godly sincerity. The people of of God are people who struggle to fight the good fight of a _sincere_ faith. However, they say, "I believe. Help my unbelief." They struggle. We struggle.

I don't think Jesus expects perfect obedience for the simple reason that he knows the hearts of all men and knows better than to expect perfection. What I do believe is that he commands perfect obedience, demands godly sincerity, and expects us to fail because he knows us intimately. After all, it was the Spirit of Christ who inspired the words of 1 John 2:1 where he says, "if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

BTW, it is precisely by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are to keep God's commands:


1 Peter 4:11 (NKJV)
11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

--in my humble opinion--


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 23, 2011)

jwithnell said:


> > not letting us rely on His law-keeping
> 
> 
> 
> That is our only hope: that Jesus kept the law perfectly and imputed His righteousness to us.


 
But, Sister, we cannot trust we are true believers just because we trust in Christ, we must have evidence/fruit of a sanctified way of life.

---------- Post added at 07:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 AM ----------




sevenzedek said:


> BTW, it is precisely by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are to keep God's commands:


 
Of course. But what troubles me is the fact that in this life we cannot do anything without sin, we cannot please God by our works, our repentance, our faith -- it must be Christ plus nothing! The only way I can ever understand Jesus' words, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love," is by assuming that even in this case God is requiring from us nothing but utter dependance and clinging to the righteousness of Christ. That done, we can say, "HERE, MASTER! I KEPT YOUR COMMANDMENTS!"


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2011)

Jesus has already told the disciples that apart from him they can do nothing and that he is the vine and they are the branches. The emphasis of verse 10 should be on the 'HOW' of keeping his commandments. Jesus gives the comparison, "Even as I have kept the Father's commandments and abide in His love." Jesus doesn't even claim the power to do good but as our brother he says "I abide in the Father's love and so the commandments are kept through this relationship." The evidence that we love Christ, abide, remain, rest in Him is that he produces the fruit of obedience in us. We can't forget for a moment that Christ is our mediator and our representative. We keep the commandments in Christ. We produce fruits in Christ. By remembering that he has set his preference on us in gracious election, given us his Spirit, imputed his obedience to us, we are the keepers of the commandments. The result of the imputation and our abiding in his love is that God sees us as not only keepers of the law but as those who have kept the law perfectly. Hence, the least of those in the Kingdom are greater than John the Baptist who was the greatest of all earth born men.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 23, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> Jesus has already told the disciples that apart from him they can do nothing and that he is the vine and they are the branches. The emphasis of verse 10 should be on the 'HOW' of keeping his commandments. Jesus gives the comparison, "Even as I have kept the Father's commandments and abide in His love." Jesus doesn't even claim the power to do good but as our brother he says "I abide in the Father's love and so the commandments are kept through this relationship." The evidence that we love Christ, abide, remain, rest in Him is that he produces the fruit of obedience in us. We can't forget for a moment that Christ is our mediator and our representative. We keep the commandments in Christ. We produce fruits in Christ. By remembering that he has set his preference on us in gracious election, given us his Spirit, imputed his obedience to us, we are the keepers of the commandments. The result of the imputation and our abiding in his love is that God sees us as not only keepers of the law but as those who have kept the law perfectly. Hence, the least of those in the Kingdom are greater than John the Baptist who was the greatest of all earth born men.


 
Thank you for explaining the passage for me, Brother! This was very helpful!


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 23, 2011)

If you still answered a few more questions, I would greatly appreciate it. 

Am I right in thinking that the "fruit" that we bear as "good trees" refers not to the deed offered to God as a whole (which is helplessly sinful), but the virtue that is bestowed to the deed by the Holy Spirit (i.e. love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance)?

I think this would make a lot of sense. To put it in a way that even a child could understand: A "Good Work" = Our Effort (evil) + The Fruit of the Holy Spirit (good)

But still a further question: Does the Bible call these Spirit-powered works "good" just because of the good that is in them due to the Spirit, or because of Christ's righteousness? (This idea, of course, presumes that a "good work" is always done in faith. But is that necessarily the case in all "good works?")


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 24, 2011)

Please, help here!


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## BobVigneault (Mar 25, 2011)

Samuel, it sounds like you're trying to make the 'good work' a synthesis of our effort and God's anointing. It could be modeled that way I suppose. It's better to think of the good as an attribute that comes from God alone, we are simply the channel for God to work through. Jesus said, "apart from me you can do nothing". That's not a poetic way of saying that 'you need me' but it means just what it says, that have totally inability apart from a vital connectedness (faith) in Christ. The problem with the rich young ruler was that he thought he could perform a good work. Jesus in saying "why do you call me good, only God is good" was alluding to Psalm 14, a passage the young man should have been familiar with.

Our nature, apart from Christ, can only sin. In Christ we are free to not sin, or in other words, we can now be the transmitter of God's grace to others. A good work is any work that adds to the redemption purpose of the Kingdom. We are ambassadors of a good message and we are sanctified (set apart) for a good purpose.

Ephesians 2 answers your questions in my opinion. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by our works but the work of Christ as our High Priest and sacrifice. We are not the works, we are God's workmanship, his vessels for his works. We are created in Christ for good works, not our efforts but his effectual work. Finally, the works we do were prepared beforehand, before we were even saved. So we work out what God has already worked in. I hope this helps Samuel.


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## MarieP (Mar 25, 2011)

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> we cannot please God by our works, our repentance, our faith



Yes, as the Psalmist said, our goodness is nothing apart from God, and yes, our only hope is the death, resurrection, and merits of Christ. As Ephesians 2 says, we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. It is not by works, so none can boast. Yes, I know that Hebrews 11 says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

But doesn't Romans 8 say:



> 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
> 9 *But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit*, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.



And 2 Corinthians 5:8-9-10 "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Matthew 6
Do Good to Please God
1 “Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you."

Gal. 6:2- "Bear one another’s burdens, *and so fulfill the law of Christ*"- Galatians 6:2

Col. 1
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 *that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him*, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Col. 3:20- "Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord."

1 Thess 4
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us *how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.*
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 13:15-16 "Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. But do not forget to do good and to share, *for with such sacrifices God is well pleased*."

Hebres 13:20-21 "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, *working in you what is well pleasing in His sight*, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

1 John 3:22- "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because *we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight*."


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 25, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> Samuel, it sounds like you're trying to make the 'good work' a synthesis of our effort and God's anointing. It could be modeled that way I suppose. It's better to think of the good as an attribute that comes from God alone, we are simply the channel for God to work through. Jesus said, "apart from me you can do nothing". That's not a poetic way of saying that 'you need me' but it means just what it says, that have totally inability apart from a vital connectedness (faith) in Christ. The problem with the rich young ruler was that he thought he could perform a good work. Jesus in saying "why do you call me good, only God is good" was alluding to Psalm 14, a passage the young man should have been familiar with.
> 
> Our nature, apart from Christ, can only sin. In Christ we are free to not sin, or in other words, we can now be the transmitter of God's grace to others. A good work is any work that adds to the redemption purpose of the Kingdom. We are ambassadors of a good message and we are sanctified (set apart) for a good purpose.
> 
> ...


 
Bob, let me try to clarify my position. I believe that in regeneration we are given a new nature with a new desire for godly things (by which I mean the exercise of the fruits of the Spirit). But since the _presence_ of sin doesn't vanish in regeneration, all the good attributes that are implanted/applied to us by the Spirit are _tainted_ by sin. So, when we compare the works of the regenerate and the unregenerate, we see that the unregenerate person has absolutely no desire for godly things, whereas the regenerate person _always_ has _some measure_ of godliness, because God has planted His seed in him (1 John 3:9). Nevertheless, these works cannot be accepted by God just because they involve _some measure_ of godliness -- sin totally outweighs them and nullifies their merit -- they are accepted solely by virtue of Christ's virtue and merit. But here is a couple of questions I would like to have answered:

Do the renegerate _always_ do "good works", or only _at certain times_? If the Spirit is always working in us, and besides, we have the seed of God in us so that "[we] cannot sin", isn't it appropriate to conclude that all our works are regarded as "good works?"

Do "good works" _always_ involve faith? If you answered "always" to the previous question, then the implication would be that we always have some measure of true, saving faith in Christ. But frankly, I do not believe that, because I do not see Christ all that glorious at times due to my spiritually blind and dull heart.

I hope we will progress in our conversation.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 25, 2011)

The regenerate do sin and so no, our works are not all good works but the works of the flesh. Romans 7 describes the struggle between the desire to do good and the old nature that inhibits us. This is why I said that in Christ we are free not to sin but still very capable of sin. 

I wouldn't define 'godly' as a 'seed' of good inside us. I define godly as our having our emotional focus on God, our thoughts are god-ward. If we actually possessed any good then we would be 'god-like'. We are in no ways 'god-like'. We have attributes that reflect God's nature and the image he has stamped on us points to his glory but we are not god-like. Godliness is the quality of focusing upon the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and Christ bearing fruit through us. 

You are seeking a technical understanding of this that goes beyond a practical need but then again, this IS the PURITAN board and it's that desire for precision that sets this community apart isn't it?


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 25, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> This is why I said that in Christ we are free not to sin but still very capable of sin.



Could you somehow clarify what you mean "in Christ", "free not to sin" and "cacable of sin" mean _in practise_?



> I wouldn't define 'godly' as a 'seed' of good inside us. I define godly as our having our emotional focus on God, our thoughts are god-ward.



You have misunderstood me. I don't define 'godly' as a 'seed' of good inside us. I define 'godly' as god-likeness. But I do think that in regeneration God sets His mark/seed/principle (call it whatever you want) into our inner being, so that in effect we have a new desire for godliness. Furthermore, how do you interpret 1 John 3:9 (especially, focusing on the meaning of the "seed")?



> If we actually possessed any good then we would be 'god-like'. We are in no ways 'god-like'.



But isn't sanctification about mortification of sin in us so that we are becoming gradually less sinful and more Christ-like? To say that we are "in no ways 'god-like'" is to say that we are not being sanctified, right?



> We have attributes that reflect God's nature and the image he has stamped on us points to his glory but we are not god-like. Godliness is the quality of focusing upon the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and Christ bearing fruit through us.



I think our difficulty in understanding each other is due to the fact that I believe God works in us to produce good fruit ALL the time. I see that these new god-ward desires are good, but that they are tainted by our sinfulness, so that they are rendered unacceptable before God's holy standard. These things come from God, so they must be good! But when they are mixed with our remaining sinfulness, they are... well, sinful.


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## sevenzedek (Apr 5, 2011)

Dear Samuel,

I have been following this thread. I notice some amount of miscommunication. Perhaps I may help.

You said,


> and besides, we have the seed of God in us so that "[we] cannot sin"



When 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin...and he cannot sin," John does not mean to say what it appears to say, i.e. that Christians _never_ sin. Evidence of this is the fact that he said in 2:1, "_f anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ." What John means by "does not sin" is that the one born of God does not make a continual ongoing practice of sinning. This conclusion is also evidenced in the Greek, I am told. Sin, in 3:9, is, in the Greek, in the aorist tense. This Greek tense puts "sin" in the continual ongoing action sense. The believer does not continue in making a practice of sinning. This is why 2:1 makes sense. If a true child of God sins, he has an Advocate. This is further evidenced in Proverbs 24:16, "...a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again..."

You asked,



Do the renegerate always do "good works", or only at certain times?

Click to expand...


The regenerate do not always do good works. Evidence of this is where Paul admonishes Titus...



those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.
Titus 3:8 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


And in the example of Peter's denial of Jesus...



31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."
Luke 22:31-32 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


Of course, we all know that Peter did deny Jesus and that his faith did not fail and that he returned.

Peter did not always maintain good works, yet he had genuine faith that caused him to return. Believers do not always maintain good works even though they are God's children--hence the command from Paul to Titus to maintain good works. There would be no need to tell Titus to maintain good works if there were no danger in not maintaining them. Therefore, the regenerate do not always do good works and only do them some of the time. Again, this is why 1 John 2:1 makes sense. If a true child of God sins, he has an Advocate.

You asked,



Do "good works" always involve faith?

Click to expand...


Good works always involves faith. Evidence of this is found throughout the NT. But the one that seems to show this most obviously is in James 2:17, 18.




...faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead...I will show you my faith by my works. 
James 2:17-18 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


You said,



the implication would be that we always have some measure of true, saving faith in Christ. But frankly, I do not believe that

Click to expand...


Believers always have some measure of true saving faith in Christ. Evidence of this is in Peter's denial of Christ. Jesus confirmed Peter's true saving faith in Matthew 16.



[Jesus]said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matt 16:15-18 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


Yet Jesus told Peter in Luke 22:32, "I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Yes. Peter had true saving faith and trusted that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He acted for a moment in disobedience and denied Christ. But his faith did not fail. Peter eventually returned and strengthened his brethren. It could be said that Peter's faith was weak but did it not fail.

You said,



I do not see Christ all that glorious at times due to my spiritually blind and dull heart.

Click to expand...


Peter, when he denied Christ three times, had a moment of blindness to God's glory as well. If you are not seeing Christ as glorious at all times, your faith may be evidenced in the fact that you are

1. dissatisfied with your lack of affections for him
2. that you continue to trust him to save you from your lack of affections for him and from your remaining sins
3. that you continue to believe that he is more satisfying and glorious to you than the many things you deny in your life for his name's sake.
4. that you continue to deny yourself and take up your cross daily

If these are in your life, they do give some evidence of true faith and genuine affections for his glory. You keep following him because you continue to believe that he is your exceedingly great reward. Thus you keep seeking him because of your unperfected yet sincere faith in him.

However, there is a danger here. You said,



But, Sister, we cannot trust we are true believers just because we trust in Christ, we must have evidence/fruit of a sanctified way of life.

Click to expand...


The danger is that we risk looking at our "evidence" and "fruit" so much that we begin to trust in these more than we trust Christ. Evidence, fruit, and good works spring forth from our trust (faith) in Christ. If one begins to doubt their salvation because of a temporary lack of good works, the answer is not that they try to do more good works. The answer is that they trust that Jesus paid all their debt on the cross. Do we trust in Christ or do we trust our "evidence/fruit?" Trust Christ.

You said,



we cannot please God by our works, our repentance, our faith

Click to expand...


Oh, but we can please God. But don't take my word for it. Take God's word.



20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21 (NKJV)

Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
Col 3:20 (NKJV)

And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1 John 3:22-23 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


I hope these truths assure your heart and help you to maintain good works and encourage you in your walk with Jesus. There is so much more that could be said here. If there is any way that I may be of any more assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me. I struggle too.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2 Cor 1:3-4 (NKJV)_


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Apr 5, 2011)

sevenzedek said:


> Dear Samuel,
> 
> I have been following this thread. I notice some amount of miscommunication. Perhaps I may help.



As I read through your response (and I mean this response that I'm now responding to) , I also noticed there, indeed, is miscommunication here. You misunderstood me on many points, but you did also help me see certain truths that I wasn't aware of before.



> You said,
> 
> 
> > and besides, we have the seed of God in us so that "[we] cannot sin"
> ...


_

By saying, "we have the seed of God in us so that '[we] cannot sin,'" I didn't mean the apparent, but simply quoted Scripture by its own words (hence the quotation marks). I'm fully aware of the variety of interpretations of this passage, including the arguments from a grammatical point of view. And I've for a long time trusted that the passage talks about an ongoing action, not an individual deed. I've just lately come to question a lot of things that I've believed before, because of my problem in understanding what Scripture means by "good works."




You asked,



Do the renegerate always do "good works", or only at certain times?

Click to expand...


The regenerate do not always do good works. Evidence of this is where Paul admonishes Titus...



those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.
Titus 3:8 (NKJV)

Click to expand...



Click to expand...


I know now that we do not do "good works" always, because the very definition of "a good work" is a deed that is accompanied with sincere, saving faith.




And in the example of Peter's denial of Jesus...



31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."
Luke 22:31-32 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


Of course, we all know that Peter did deny Jesus and that his faith did not fail and that he returned.

Peter did not always maintain good works, yet he had genuine faith that caused him to return. Believers do not always maintain good works even though they are God's children--hence the command from Paul to Titus to maintain good works. There would be no need to tell Titus to maintain good works if there were no danger in not maintaining them. Therefore, the regenerate do not always do good works and only do them some of the time. Again, this is why 1 John 2:1 makes sense. If a true child of God sins, he has an Advocate.

Click to expand...


I loved the following sermon by John Piper on the "sifting" of Peter: The Sifting of Simon Peter - Desiring God How encouraging must it have been for Peter to hear Jesus Himself say He's praying for him that he will not fall utterly from faith, though he will publicly deny him three times.




You asked,



Do "good works" always involve faith?

Click to expand...


Good works always involves faith. Evidence of this is found throughout the NT. But the one that seems to show this most obviously is in James 2:17, 18.




...faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead...I will show you my faith by my works. 
James 2:17-18 (NKJV)

Click to expand...



Click to expand...


Thank you for clearing this up for me. Though I knew faith is death without works, I had totally forgotten the opposite fact that works are worthless without faith!




You said,



the implication would be that we always have some measure of true, saving faith in Christ. But frankly, I do not believe that

Click to expand...


Believers always have some measure of true saving faith in Christ. Evidence of this is in Peter's denial of Christ. Jesus confirmed Peter's true saving faith in Matthew 16.



[Jesus]said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matt 16:15-18 (NKJV)

Click to expand...


Yet Jesus told Peter in Luke 22:32, "I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Yes. Peter had true saving faith and trusted that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He acted for a moment in disobedience and denied Christ. But his faith did not fail. Peter eventually returned and strengthened his brethren. It could be said that Peter's faith was weak but did it not fail.

Click to expand...


I totally agree with what you said and admit my error in claiming that we do not always have true, saving faith, in some measure. The reason I couldn't accept it was due to my misconception that true, saving faith must always be sincere, that is, in full comformity to one's conscience. Well, that cannot be true if we have true, saving faith even when we knowingly sin against God and our conscience which is, in some measure, conformed to the Word of God. In other words, we may practise saving faith even without knowing it -- and I just remembered that's exactly what the Westminster Confession of Faith states in the XVIII. Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation, 3.: "*This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith*,"




You said,



I do not see Christ all that glorious at times due to my spiritually blind and dull heart.

Click to expand...


Peter, when he denied Christ three times, had a moment of blindness to God's glory as well. If you are not seeing Christ as glorious at all times, your faith may be evidenced in the fact that you are

1. dissatisfied with your lack of affections for him
2. that you continue to trust him to save you from your lack of affections for him and from your remaining sins
3. that you continue to believe that he is more satisfying and glorious to you than the many things you deny in your life for his name's sake.
4. that you continue to deny yourself and take up your cross daily

If these are in your life, they do give some evidence of true faith and genuine affections for his glory. You keep following him because you continue to believe that he is your exceedingly great reward. Thus you keep seeking him because of your unperfected yet sincere faith in him.

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Thank you for these encouraging words. I really appreciate it.




However, there is a danger here. You said,



But, Sister, we cannot trust we are true believers just because we trust in Christ, we must have evidence/fruit of a sanctified way of life.

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The danger is that we risk looking at our "evidence" and "fruit" so much that we begin to trust in these more than we trust Christ. Evidence, fruit, and good works spring forth from our trust (faith) in Christ. If one begins to doubt their salvation because of a temporary lack of good works, the answer is not that they try to do more good works. The answer is that they trust that Jesus paid all their debt on the cross. Do we trust in Christ or do we trust our "evidence/fruit?" Trust Christ.

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I've stopped trusting in my own works, repentance and faith a long time ago. God has demonstrated my weakness so greatly through my life that it has left deep marks on my soul. I may never trust in myself. But I don't want to deny Scripture either, that it says we must time to time look at our lives to see whether we are growing in grace or not. If we are not, we shouldn't think we are Christian. But it somehow doesn't feel right, that we should not literally look at Christ and His work continually. So, I've decided that this is not a contradiction -- that we must examine ourselves doesn't mean we cannot keep our eyes on Christ -- it may be our logical conclusion, but I don't believe we should look anywhere else, AT ANY MOMENT, than Christ.




You said,



we cannot please God by our works, our repentance, our faith

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Oh, but we can please God. But don't take my word for it. Take God's word.



20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21 (NKJV)

Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
Col 3:20 (NKJV)

And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1 John 3:22-23 (NKJV)

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I'm sorry, my mistake again! When I said, "we cannot please God *by* our works, our repentance, our faith" I meant our works, repentance and faith cannot please God, in and of themselves (which I thought you would figure out from the context).




I hope these truths assure your heart and help you to maintain good works and encourage you in your walk with Jesus. There is so much more that could be said here. If there is any way that I may be of any more assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me. I struggle too.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2 Cor 1:3-4 (NKJV)

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I thank you for your concern. You were of great help to me! That was a beautiful passage of Scripture at the end. Again, thank you! I highly appreciate it!

In Christ,
Brother Samuel_


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