# MA: Covenant Seminary or WTS?



## SynodOfDort (May 2, 2014)

I am currently enrolled in the BS in Business Management program from Liberty University - Online and am now starting to look at seminary. My goal is to pursue a PhD in Historical Theology -or- Old Testament, and my plan is to do a MA instead of the MDiv track to a PhD. I have just about narrowed my options down to Westminster Theological Seminary's MAR track in Theological Studies ($455/credit hr) and Covenant Seminary's MATS ($480/credit hr) as the best options for the direction I feel led to pursue. (WSCal is out of the question, as I have been too influenced by Rushdoony and Bahnsen to be welcomed there ) Westminster's MAR is 74 credits and Covenant's is 48 hrs. Would the difference between the two have any affect on entering a doctoral program at an institution such as Calvin Seminary or SBTS? 

Thanks in advance for any input!


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## iainduguid (May 2, 2014)

SynodOfDort said:


> I am currently enrolled in the BS in Business Management program from Liberty University - Online and am now starting to look at seminary. My goal is to pursue a PhD in Historical Theology -or- Old Testament, and my plan is to do a MA instead of the MDiv track to a PhD. I have just about narrowed my options down to Westminster Theological Seminary's MAR track in Theological Studies ($455/credit hr) and Covenant Seminary's MATS ($480/credit hr) as the best options for the direction I feel led to pursue. (WSCal is out of the question, as I have been too influenced by Rushdoony and Bahnsen to be welcomed there ) Westminster's MAR is 74 credits and Covenant's is 48 hrs. Would the difference between the two have any affect on entering a doctoral program at an institution such as Calvin Seminary or SBTS?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input!



To start with the obvious, the Covenant MATS doesn't include the Biblical languages (which is why it requires so many fewer hours). If you want to get a Ph.D. and be a theologian (even of the historical variety), it seems to me that basic competence in the original languages of the Bible is a _sine qua non_. My 2c is that for someone thinking of a Ph.D. WTS has the advantage of numerous Th.M. and Ph.D. courses which you can audit or even take for credit, which will really help you prepare for your future goals. I would also add that there are very few jobs out there for Ph.D.'s and many of them are at seminaries, which will generally prefer to recruit someone with an MDiv rather than an MA (and sometimes pastoral experience as well). The MDiv takes a little longer but makes you more employable and perhaps also more useful for the kingdom. For what it's worth.


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## SynodOfDort (May 2, 2014)

iainduguid said:


> SynodOfDort said:
> 
> 
> > I am currently enrolled in the BS in Business Management program from Liberty University - Online and am now starting to look at seminary. My goal is to pursue a PhD in Historical Theology -or- Old Testament, and my plan is to do a MA instead of the MDiv track to a PhD. I have just about narrowed my options down to Westminster Theological Seminary's MAR track in Theological Studies ($455/credit hr) and Covenant Seminary's MATS ($480/credit hr) as the best options for the direction I feel led to pursue. (WSCal is out of the question, as I have been too influenced by Rushdoony and Bahnsen to be welcomed there ) Westminster's MAR is 74 credits and Covenant's is 48 hrs. Would the difference between the two have any affect on entering a doctoral program at an institution such as Calvin Seminary or SBTS?
> ...



Thanks for your counsel! I had not considered the possibility of an MDiv providing advantages over a MA program I had planned on studying Greek/Hebrew on the side anywho, but classes that include delving into the nitty-gritty of the original Greek texts does sound quite appealing. Perhaps an MDiv would provide a wider skill set and thus enable me to have a more effective kingdom inpact


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

Not to muddy the waters but have you considered Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? They are far more affordable than either of the options you mention (at $250 per credit hour), offer a wonderful M.Div program, and have an incredibly strong emphasis on Historical Theology. It would set you up well for further studies even if you headed to someplace like Westminster later for your PhD. In any case, if PRTS is off the table I would definitely vote for WTS over CTS.


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## SolamVeritatem (May 3, 2014)

Ben,

Having attended neither, why would you definitely vote for WTS over CTS? Just curious. 

In Him,

Craig


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

SolamVeritatem said:


> Ben,
> 
> Having attended neither, why would you definitely vote for WTS over CTS? Just curious.
> 
> ...



Hopefully this won't get me into too much trouble but several reasons come to mind:

1) WTS is cheaper than CTS.

2) WTS has a fantastic reputation in the academic community and is the go-to place for many Reformed types who are doing post M.Div work.

3) WTS has Carl Trueman. For someone interested in pursuing Historical Theology, need I say more?

4) This is anecdotal, but most of the recent CTS grads I've run into just don't have the same theological acumen and knowledge of your average WTS grad. 

5) CTS has a very definite theological/ecclesiastical agenda and that tends to show up in their grads views and practices. 

I've probably gotten myself in enough trouble for now so I'll just stop there.


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (May 3, 2014)

From what i know, which is little, I'd support Westminster over Covenant.

However, I'll always support Greenville Presbyterian Seminary over any other!


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## reaganmarsh (May 3, 2014)

PointyHaired Calvinist said:


> From what i know, which is little, I'd support Westminster over Covenant.
> 
> However, I'll always support Greenville Presbyterian Seminary over any other!



As another brother said above, the WTS grads I know have a particular theological acumen that is lacking in my CTS friends. That being said, I too have been very, very impressed with the GPTS men I've met. (And PRTS is fantastic.)


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

My top three as I was looking were PRTS, GPTS, and WTS.


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## SynodOfDort (May 3, 2014)

Hamalas said:


> Not to muddy the waters but have you considered Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? They are far more affordable than either of the options you mention (at $250 per credit hour), offer a wonderful M.Div program, and have an incredibly strong emphasis on Historical Theology. It would set you up well for further studies even if you headed to someplace like Westminster later for your PhD. In any case, if PRTS is off the table I would definitely vote for WTS over CTS.



Thanks! If my memory serves me correctly, PRTS is unaccredited by ATS. I am afraid that would restrict postgraduate work 



Hamalas said:


> SolamVeritatem said:
> 
> 
> > Ben,
> ...



WTS certainly seems like the best option! And Trueman is the primary reason for that  (Although studying NT under Beale won't be bad either!)
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## SolamVeritatem (May 3, 2014)

Ben/Pastor Marsh,

I don't profess to be a scholar or anything of the sort, neither do I believe that I have enough experience or aptitude to question what you gentlemen are saying. I'm sure that based on your education and expertise you are probably dead on with these statements. So, I say that up front to let you know that I in no way mean to stir up the pot. 

I do, however, want to know what you mean when you say "particular theological acumen" or "definite theological/ecclesiastical agenda". What exactly are you getting at? 

I may just be too much of a novice to understand, but I've looked at the respective curriculums of both schools, and what I see from both are very stringent and challenging requirements that are necessary to prepare men for gospel ministry. Ben, I grant you 1-3 on your list because those are facts, but wouldn't you say both 4 and 5 are a bit subjective? Is there something I'm missing?

Perhaps PM is the best choice for these conversations, because I don't want to derail the thread at all. I will say that I have plenty of anecdotal experience from both sides as well. In fact, it may be safe to say that is more than anecdotal. My family and I sat under a Westminster Philly grad who had just begun a fast-growing church plant for 2 years, and I am literally best friends with a CURRENT Covenant Theological Seminary student. 

Again, I'm definitely not interested in debating or causing trouble of any sort, but I would just like to know what is meant by these terms. I mean this in all respect to the both of you and what God has accomplished in your ministries. 

In Him,

Craig


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## Hamalas (May 3, 2014)

Craig I appreciate your note. I'll send you a PM in the next couple of days fleshing out my (admittedly subjective) thoughts. 

Jacob, PRTS actually _just_ got ATS accreditation a few months ago: https://puritanseminary.org/about-prts/accreditation/


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## SynodOfDort (May 3, 2014)

Hamalas said:


> Craig I appreciate your note. I'll send you a PM in the next couple of days fleshing out my (admittedly subjective) thoughts.
> 
> Jacob, PRTS actually _just_ got ATS accreditation a few months ago: https://puritanseminary.org/about-prts/accreditation/



Accredited!?  Well that throws a monkey wrench in my plans  Now PRTS is definately a _very_ tempting option!


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## reaganmarsh (May 3, 2014)

Hi Craig, 

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll reply briefly here and if you'd like to respond we can move this to PM or email. 

I'm definitely not a scholar, so I hope I'm not sounding like I think I am. As regards any "definite theological/ecclesiastical agenda," that you'll have to take up with Ben; I don't know anything about that! 

All I intended to say by my comment re: WTS grads having a "particular theological acumen" is that -- in _my_ circle of friends -- the Covenant guys tend to be more "engage the culture" / "missional" / "contemporary," while the WTS guys tend to be more theologically and exegetically driven. My WTS friends are the special forces, black-ops Bible guys. 

No disrespect or disparagement intended toward CTS, or any CTS brethren, in any way. Just something I've observed in _my_ friends.

All the best in your pursuit of seminary, Jacob. Grace to you.


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## SynodOfDort (May 4, 2014)

reaganmarsh said:


> All the best in your pursuit of seminary, Jacob. Grace to you.



Thanks! I'll need that (grace)!


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## reaganmarsh (May 4, 2014)

SynodOfDort said:


> reaganmarsh said:
> 
> 
> > All the best in your pursuit of seminary, Jacob. Grace to you.
> ...



Jacob, 

Far more than you know!


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## Alan D. Strange (May 4, 2014)

Jacob:

To get the oar in the water, Mid-America Reformed Seminary (Welcome to Mid-America Reformed Seminary) has high academic standards (we are accredited with ATS) and fine pastoral training (in the M.Div.), as well as requiring the languages in the M.T.S. (Master of Theological Studies). We are reasonably priced and have a diverse faculty (from the continental Reformed and Presbyterian traditions--we are small but it's not a one-man show). We've had students go on for Ph.D. studies. 

If you are thinking of something other than WTS (several of us received our M.Div. degrees from there and one is set to get his Ph.D. from there), give us a look if you would. I'll be happy to PM with you if I may be of further assistance. 

Peace,
Alan


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## reaganmarsh (May 5, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> we are accredited with ATS



I didn't realize that MARS was accredited. That's wonderful.


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## SolamVeritatem (May 5, 2014)

Pastor Marsh,

Thanks for the clarification! 

It was extremely helpful, and I completely understand the distinction now. 

In Him,

Craig


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## SolamVeritatem (May 5, 2014)

Ben,

Thank you again, and I look forward to interacting with you via PM. 

I can also then send you my email for us to converse if you'd like. Thanks. 

In Him,

Craig


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 5, 2014)

Mid America! Just had to put in my two cents and bias.


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 5, 2014)

SynodOfDort said:


> My goal is to pursue a PhD in Historical Theology -or- Old Testament, and my plan is to do a MA instead of the MDiv track to a PhD.



Why not plan to do a PhD in religious history? This plan would seriously widen your options with respect to what school to attend, as you will be able to do it at most ordinary universities with a decent history department.


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## Alan D. Strange (May 5, 2014)

Yes, we've been accredited for some time, including with ATS (we are in process of a new self-study, as part of having our ATS accreditation renewed). 

Peace,
Alan


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## reaganmarsh (May 5, 2014)

SolamVeritatem said:


> Pastor Marsh,
> 
> Thanks for the clarification!
> 
> ...



Glad it made sense!


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