# Should Pentecostal churches be considered Protestant?



## cih1355

I have W. David Buschart's book, _Exploring Protestant Traditions_, and he says that a Protestant church is a church that traces its origin either directly or indirectly to the European reform movements outside of the Roman Catholic Church in the early-to-middle sixteenth century. He calls the following churches Protestant: Reformed, Lutheran, Wesleyan, Baptist, Anglican, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, and Dispensational. Do you have any thoughts on this?


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## LadyFlynt

More like post-protestant.


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## Iakobos_1071

> Should Pentecostal churches be considered Protestant?


There are a lot of people who would think so.. I personally do not. I was raised in pentecostal churches (UPC and a few other ones). But there are so many churches that fall under the "Pentecostal" umbrella. I have even seen pentecostal - charismatic catholics that speak in "tongues" and dance etc. In my experience.. I classify all pentecostal denominations under charismatic, works based, extra biblical atonement religion. A false doctrine. Sorry I am ranting.. _my personal answer is_ *NO*.. I do not think they should be considered Protestant. But a general assertion of the question would be *yes* because the general umbrella of the pentecostal movement is not catholic.


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## TimV

Curt, what do you think of the author's definition? Because by his definition most everything in the Western world not RC is Protestant, and he would be right.


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## Jimmy the Greek

The Roman Catholics love to point at the fragmentation and widely varying theological positions in Protestantism-at-large as the pitiful result of leaving the more stable monolithic Mother Church.


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## shackleton

The Pentecostals themselves would not say they came out of the Reformation, but then again most Baptists would say the same thing.


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## Jon 316

> Curt, what do you think of the author's definition? Because by his definition most everything in the Western world not RC is Protestant, and he would be right.



To be fair Tim, being outside the RC church was not the only criteria given in the author's definition. 



> I have W. David Buschart's book, Exploring Protestant Traditions, and he says that _a Protestant church is a church that traces its origin either directly or indirectly to the European reform movements outside of the Roman Catholic Church _in the early-to-middle sixteenth century.






> There are a lot of people who would think so.. I personally do not. I was raised in pentecostal churches (UPC and a few other ones). But there are so many churches that fall under the "Pentecostal" umbrella. I have even seen pentecostal - charismatic catholics that speak in "tongues" and dance etc. In my experience.. I classify all pentecostal denominations under charismatic, works based, extra biblical atonement religion.



UPC is hardly a good example. They reject the trinity. Oneness pentecostalism needs to be seperated from pentecostalism. This was an error which arose in the early days of pentecostalism which caused most pentecostals to seperate from the 'oneness' advocates. AoG, the largest worldwide Pentecostal took a strong stand against the 'oneness' doctrine and took a strong trinitarian stance. 

Your other accusations against the movement are also false. AoG (again the largest worldwide pentecostal group) has the following statement on salvation as one of their core doctrines



> 5. The Salvation of Man
> Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God.
> 
> Conditions to Salvation
> 
> Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> Luke 24:47 [KJV/NIV]
> John 3:3 [KJV/NIV]
> Romans 10:13-15 [KJV/NIV]
> Ephesians 2:8 [KJV/NIV]
> Titus 2:11 [KJV/NIV]
> Titus 3:5-7 [KJV/NIV]
> The Evidence of Salvation
> 
> The inward evidence of salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit.
> 
> Romans 8:16 [KJV/NIV]
> The outward evidence to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness.
> 
> Ephesians 4:24 [KJV/NIV]
> Titus 2:12 [KJV/NIV]



Regarding scripture



> 1. The Scriptures Inspired
> The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct.
> 
> 2 Timothy 3:15-17 [KJV/NIV]
> 1 Thessalonians 2:13 [KJV/NIV]
> 2 Peter 1:21 [KJV/NIV]



Fundamental Truths (Full Statement)

Regarding Charismatics David Bebbington Church historian makes the following observation.



> A study of restorationism has located it (Charismatic Renewal) firmly in the Evangelical Protestant tradition. Furthermore, as a Scottish Roman Catholic Bishop has remarked the effect of renewal on a catholic was usually to give him ‘something of the Evangelical emphasis on Jesus as his personal Saviour’. If the Charismatic movement brought Christians of different backgrounds together, it did so on a basis that was discernibly Evangelical in appearance.



Bebbington, D.W., Evangelicalism in Modern Britain: A History from the 1730s to the 1980s, (London, Unwin Hyman, 1989),

While pentecostalism is not 'reformed', it is certainly 1) not a cult 2) not apostate as in purest form a) holds scripture as the final authority b) holds to justification by faith c) preaches the need for the new birth. Has, in Scotland, been more faithful in preserving a cross centred Christianity than the liberal institutional CofS (as well as many of the other more established churches).

I'm not arguing that the movement is ideal, it is far from it. Its current condition concerns me enough that I recently seperated myself from it. However slander and misrepresentation of a fellow comminity of believers is a sin grevious to the Lord. To tread this road is to make fellowship with the leaven of the sadducees and pharisees which Jesus warned his disciples strongly against.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 12:30:33 EST-----



> The Pentecostals themselves would not say they came out of the Reformation, but then again most Baptists would say the same thing.



Not quite so. 

"At least five strands of Christian tradition are observable in the pentecostal movement and ministry. ...They are the Evangelical Faith, the Revivalist element, the Holiness movements, the Healing phenomena and the brethren impact...The Evangelical Faith It is from the reformation with its emphasis on returning to New Testament Christianity and the Word of God, that Pentecostals get their evnagelicalism. They preach firmly, with evangelistic fervour, the reformation theology of justification by faith. Unlike the reformers however Pentecostal preachers tend to favour arminianism with its emphasis on human responsibilty. along with the basic Reformed tradition of the necessity of the Atonement of Christ and the application of salvation to the heart of penitent sinners. There is some affinity too with the Puritans and their emphasis on purifting the church of all wordly practices, the simplification of worship...Traditionaly then Pentecostals have placed themselves within the protestant tradition with their emphasis on the need of salvation as an individual experience."

Harry Letson: Catalysts of the Spirit: An introduction to Pentecostal History

p.s this will be my last post on this thread. I did not come to the puritanboard to engage in charismatic controversy debates. I came to learn more about the doctrines of grace and the puritans.


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## Poimen

Pentecostalism is not a historical Protestant movement (read Luther and Calvin on the Anabaptists) but they are certainly are protesting against the Reformation in word and deed. And those amongst its adherents who are sympathetic to Reformed doctrine need to continue to reform. 

BTW, I don't think questions like these should be asked or answered in a proud or self-exalting way as in 'I am protestant and you are not' but historical and doctrinal integrity requires us to make distinctions and the Pentecostal movement in its origins and in its practice undermines so many fundamental Protestant doctrines that it is contrary to the very spirit of the Reformation.


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## Prufrock

Poimen said:


> BTW, I don't think questions like these should be asked or answered in a proud or self-exalting way as in 'I am protestant and you are not' but historical and doctrinal integrity requires us to make distinctions and the Pentecostal movement in its origins and in its practice undermines so many fundamental Protestant doctrines that it is contrary to the very spirit of the Reformation.




Well said.


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## BertMulder

cih1355 said:


> I have W. David Buschart's book, _Exploring Protestant Traditions_, and he says that a Protestant church is a church that traces its origin either directly or indirectly to the European reform movements outside of the Roman Catholic Church in the early-to-middle sixteenth century. He calls the following churches Protestant: Reformed, Lutheran, Wesleyan, Baptist, Anglican, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, and Dispensational. Do you have any thoughts on this?



Strictly speaking, only the Lutheran churches are protestant. Loosely speaking, those of the history of the reformation would be included, which would mean the reformed churches, with possible inclusion of the wesleyans and anglican. All the others, no.


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## beej6

To me this is much like the apostolic succession debate. It's one thing to be able to trace the origin of a church back in time in history; but I believe one can also by way of confession be "grafted" onto the true remnant of the faithful.

To the OP, I would say broadly if the (a) Pentecostal church protests against the wrongs of Catholicism, then perhaps they could be considered Protestant. But narrowly, in tracing doctrinal roots to the Reformers, esp. justification by grace alone through faith alone (missing in the AoG quotes in post #7), it may not be.


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## Iakobos_1071

Jon 316 said:


> UPC is hardly a good example. They reject the trinity. Oneness pentecostalism needs to be separated from pentecostalism. This was an error which arose in the early days of Pentecostalism which caused most pentecostals to seperate from the 'oneness' advocates. AoG, the largest worldwide Pentecostal took a strong stand against the 'oneness' doctrine and took a strong trinitarian stance.



I do not disagree or anything, but I am very interested in more of your opinion on this. Also I have never heard of Pentecostals believing in the Trinity. I know I am ignorant of this because I was raised in Oneness Pentecostal Churches and still have many family members in these churches.. they teach that people that believe the trinity are not 'real' Pentecostals. 

I seriously want to know your opinion about the Oneness Pentecostal doctrine. You can PM me if you like to avoid others debating you..  



Jon 316 said:


> Oneness pentecostalism needs to be separated from pentecostalism.


This is most likely why I get a lot of flack when I make comments about Pentecostalism..LOL I honestly never knew there was a difference. 



> I did not come to the puritanboard to engage in charismatic controversy debates. I came to learn more about the doctrines of grace and the puritans.


AMEN!!


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## Clay7926

Wanted to suggest this as a good resource for folks interested in Oneness Pentecostalism:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-without-Cross-Salvation-Pentecostalism/dp/1581125844]Amazon.com: Christianity without the Cross: A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism: Thomas A. Fudge: Books[/ame]


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## Zenas

No.

Albeit I am not certain of my understanding of their source, but I am quite confident that they are either a deviation of a Protestant group or a new creation all their own.


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## PastorTim

The ones I have been acquainted with are closer to heretical with their many additions of man's teachings.


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## CDM

Saying "Baptists" (without qualification) descend from the Reformation can be problematic. "Particular", or most often in the States, "Primitive" Baptists deny they descend from the Reformation and confess they are not Protestant.


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