# Thornwell and Theocracy



## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2005)

A quick question:
Did Thornwell have theocratic views?
If so, what was the occasion that he voiced them? I am thinking he did so at the writing of the Confederate Constitution. Andrew and Chris, do yall have any info on this?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

Yes, he was a theocrat or a Christocrat as some might say.

He did propose a preamble to the Confederate Constitution which was rejected: 

"Nevertheless we, the people of these Confederate States, distinctly acknowledge our responsibility to God, and the supremacy of His Son, Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords; and hereby ordain that no law shall be passed by the Congress of these Confederate States inconsistent with the will of God, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures."

He also wrote _The Relation of the State to Christ_.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2005)

Can you give me the bibliographic reference to the preamble in detail, pagination, publisher, date? I am writing a reference paper and if you could help me out on that I will mention you in a footnote along the lines of:

"I am indebted to Andrew Myers for pointing this out to me."

If you don't mind.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2005)

If you can't, I think I can figure it out. I have parts of the pages of Thornwell's volume four with me at the moment.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

The proposed premable is cited in: James Henry Thornwell, _The Collected Writings of James Thornwell_ (Carlisle, PA, 1974), p. 556. 

Here's another worthy quote from this great man: "Our standard of right is that eternal law which God proclaimed from Sinai, and which Jesus expounded on the Mount. We recognize our responsibility to Jesus Christ. He is Head over all things to the Church, and the nation that will not serve Him is doomed to perish" - [James Henley Thornwell, _The Collected Writings of James Henley Thornwell_, Vol. IV, p. 517f.]


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## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2005)

Brilliant
Bingo
I am set!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

Cool!


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## crhoades (Apr 18, 2005)

Sermon by Thornwell to the House of Representatives of South Carolina

Excerpts:

You are a citizen of the commonwealth"”a member of her legislative councils. Are you, or are you not, an enemy to God by wicked works? Have you kissed the Son"”have you been redeemed by the blood of the cross? Depend upon it, that the personal character of those who are placed in authority, have much to do, from the very nature of moral government, with the prosperity of the State. The rulers are the representatives of the land, and in God´s word no more tremendous judgment is threatened against any people than the sending among them of ignorant, debauched and wicked counsellors. 
__________

The best servant of the State, is the faithful servant of God; and you would do more to-day, my brethren, for the prosperity and glory of this great Commonwealth which we love, by consecrating each man himself upon the altar of religion, than by all your eloquence, prudence and skill. Verily, there is a God that judgeth in the earth, and He does visit a people for the sins and iniquities of their rulers. Virtue is power, and vice is weakness, and every corrupt Senator, every debauched councellor, every wicked man, is like a. crumbling stone in the foundation of an edifice. They weaken infallibly"”they mazy destroy. In your official relaÂ­tion to the State, therefore, it is a matter of the last imporÂ­tance that you should all be friends of God. Imagination can hardly conceive the strength and beauty and glory of that Commonwealth in which the people should all be righteous"”in which no rivalry should be found but the rivalry of excellence"”no selfishness, ambition or partizan zeal"”no demaÂ­gogues nor placemen.
________________

On blasphemy/profaneness as national sin:

This offence cannot go unpunished. If there be a God, He must vindicate His own majesty and glory. There must be a period when all shall tremble before Him, when every knee shall bow and every heart shall do reverence. The sword of justice cannot always be sheathed, nor the arm of vengeance slumber, and who shall say that the pestilence which has been walking amongst us, and slaying its thousands upon the right hand and the left, has not received its commission on account of the abounding profaneness of the land? Who shall deny that the deep has been evoked in storm and deluge to proclaim the name of the Lord as terrible and glorious? In the sight of angels there can be no greater sin than that of profaneness. They know something of what God is. They fear that dreadful name, and their imaginations, lofty and expanded as they are, cannot measure the height and depth of that iniquity which can make light of so tremendous a being. It is the very spirit and core of all evil"”the quintessence of ungodliness.

and wow!

*Now whatever representations diminish the authority of the Divine law as the supreme rule, and make the State the creature and organ of popular will, as if an absolute soveÂ­reignty were vested in that, are equally repugnant to reliÂ­gion and the true conception of our government. An absoÂ­lute democracy is the worst of all governments, because it is judicially cursed as treason against God, and is given over to the blindness of impulse and passion. I am afraid that in this matter we have trodden upon the verge of error"”we have forgotten that the State is ordained of God, and that our relations to each other are those of mutual consultation and advice, while all are absolutely subject to Him.*


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

Would that men would preach to our civil magistrates like that today!


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## crhoades (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Would that men would preach to our civil magistrates like that today!



Would that Christians would want men to preach like that to our civil magistrates like that today!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

This is from Hetherington's _History of the Westminster Assembly of Divines_:



> From this time forward, it was customary to appoint similar fasts, and public sermons before the Houses of Parliament; which sermons were printed by order of Parliament, frequently with prefaces before, or postscripts appended to them by their authors; and having been preserved, they form an admirable mass of information regarding the actual sentiments and state of feelings predominant in both the Parliament and Assembly, characterized by all the freshness and trembling earnestness, and intensity of hopes and fears, called forth by the varying vicissitudes of those eventful and fluctuating times. The same circumstance proves, that on the part of the Parliament,6 the struggle in which they were engaged was by themselves regarded as to the full as much of a religious as of a political character; and that they were not ashamed to acknowledge that they looked to the favor and the protection of God for ultimate success in the perilous and important contest. It may be added, that however vehemently the king and his adherents asserted the divine source of the royal prerogative, we do not find that they attempted to hallow their cause, or to seek divine aid, by solemn religious acts; but, on the contrary, that in order to draw the utmost possible breadth of distinction between themselves and the Puritans, they delighted to indulge to excess in every kind of licentiousness and immorality; so that they frequently alienated those counties which were otherwise friendly to the royal cause, and drove the oppressed people into the ranks of the parliamentary armies, as the only way to rescue themselves and their families from the vicious brutalities of the proud and tyrannical cavaliers.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2005)

Chris,
Can you give me the date of that sermon?


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## ARStager (Apr 18, 2005)

I just want to brag that I go to Thornwell's old church.

And B.M. Palmer's, for that matter.


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## crhoades (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Chris,
> Can you give me the date of that sermon?



SATURDAY, DEC. 9, 1854

Check the link.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> I just want to brag that I go to Thornwell's old church.
> 
> And B.M. Palmer's, for that matter.



Cool!


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## turmeric (Apr 18, 2005)

The Roundheads were a Christian government which lasted about 20yrs.
The Southern Confederacy appears (if Thornwell is any example) to be a godly nation - they lasted 5yrs(?)

If theonomic principles are true - what gives here?

The US has existed over 200yrs. and we are one of the most wicked nations on earth, getting worse every day. God doesn't have a covenant with the US like He did with ancient Israel - what's goin' on here?

Maybe it's because Christ's kingdom is not of this world...


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## crhoades (Apr 19, 2005)

Or maybe because Christians have not sought out biblical principles for government and have left it for the unbelieving pagans to. 

So you would rather be ruled with autonomous/secular/pagan law than God's law? Murderering rapists' sentences to be reduced from capital punishment to life because jurors sought out what God said about it. Homosexual marriage. Abortion. p0rnography everywhere. Unbridled capitalistic greed. Corrupt government bloat that intrudes everywhere. 

Please do some exegesis and read commentaries on the verse that Christ's kingdom is not of this world. You will find that it carries a different meaning than the one you are giving it if I am reading you correctly.


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## turmeric (Apr 19, 2005)

Man, you're touchy! I didn't say what I'd rather be ruled by - I'm asking why these presumably godly experiments don't appear to have been successful. Please don't presume a lot of stuff I didn't say and don't believe.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> The Roundheads were a Christian government which lasted about 20yrs.
> The Southern Confederacy appears (if Thornwell is any example) to be a godly nation - they lasted 5yrs(?)
> 
> ...



For one, Andrew is not a theonomist. Your position seems to suggest that since we haven't seen a sucessful godly government, let's just let the pluralists have america. We do not advocate a godly civil magistracy because it will work or is expedient, quite the opposite in reality. We advocate such a government because it is right.

Anyway,
Roundheads? More than one factor was involved and it would be absurd to suggest that they failed because the wanted a Christian nation.

Confederacy? Crushed from without. One cannot argue pro or con on the theocratic elements within. Had they been given time, slavery would have reformed to the extent that it would have become exticnt.

America's wickedness? See Constitution thread.


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## turmeric (Apr 19, 2005)

Why didn't God protect them? That is what I'm asking.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 19, 2005)

Because Cromwell was Independent and not Presbyterian. If he sought a republican, representative government after the Presbyterian struggle, who knows what would happen.

The Confederacy? Lincoln destroyed it. While close to theocratic, the Confederacy had an unbiblical form of slavery and God brought the scourge of Lincoln to purify the South. Read Dabney's "The Duty of the Hour" and the "New South" in volume four of his discussions.


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## turmeric (Apr 19, 2005)

Thanks.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 19, 2005)

Meg,
You asked a question that has troubled me for a long time. God used it in part connected with my own sanctification and in reading the Psalms. Many times in our lives and in history, those in the Right get overrun by tyranny, internal strife, self-righteouness, and pettiness. While technically better than the other guy, God uses the wicked to chasten us. Dabney's volume four says this better than I could. If God uses such in our own personal sanctification, is it not too far-fetched to think that he would do that for a Christian people?

But we should not fear.
The South will rise again. Amsterdam will Rise again. Scotland will rise again. We will see the Shire again.


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## turmeric (Apr 19, 2005)

Yes, the True King will come.


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## crhoades (Apr 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Man, you're touchy! I didn't say what I'd rather be ruled by - I'm asking why these presumably godly experiments don't appear to have been successful. Please don't presume a lot of stuff I didn't say and don't believe.



You're completely right. Please forgive me. Yeah, I've been touchy lately...Completely stressed out. I even took today off of work to unwind. I also allowed my thoughts and interactions on other threads to end up on yours here as well. I also confess that I'm upset that we have a rich reformed heritage both confessional and systematic on the civil magistrate and I feel that it has been lost. Again, I'm sorry for presuming.


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## turmeric (Apr 19, 2005)

It's okay, and understandable! I had to take a week off from work 2 weeks ago, so I wouldn't come unglued on someone. I am also frustrated with the way things are going - can't imagine much good ahead for this country. But Jacob is right - we should not fear.

In Christ.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> I also allowed my thoughts and interactions on other threads to end up on yours here as well. I also confess that I'm upset that we have a rich reformed heritage both confessional and systematic on the civil magistrate and I feel that it has been lost. Again, I'm sorry for presuming.



Sounds familiar. I do that all the time.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 19, 2005)

When I forsee the dangers of the future, especially that of political america and feel that nothing can get better, I do two things:

1) I watch Two Towers and Return of the King

2) I read Isaiah, especially chs. 6-8


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Meg,
> You asked a question that has troubled me for a long time. God used it in part connected with my own sanctification and in reading the Psalms. Many times in our lives and in history, those in the Right get overrun by tyranny, internal strife, self-righteouness, and pettiness. While technically better than the other guy, God uses the wicked to chasten us. Dabney's volume four says this better than I could. If God uses such in our own personal sanctification, is it not too far-fetched to think that he would do that for a Christian people?
> 
> ...





I find the Book of Judges instructive. God brings his people and indeed all nations into judgment for their sins. But the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. His promises that the nations shall honor Zion have been, are being, and will be fulfilled (Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.; Rev. 21.24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.) The failures of the Hebrews, Covenanters, Huguenots, Puritans, Confederates, etc. are a reminder that the best of us are not without sin and therefore judgment but that does not mean we should not aspire to their Cause. The banner of Christ's Crown & Covenant will be lifted high again among the nations, and that is a goal to work towards in the realization that it can only truly be accomplished by the Spirit of God working in us. The fact that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church still means that the seed will grow and the Church will indeed be triumphant according as she holds to the Word of God and is moved by the Spirit of God. The meek _shall_ inherit the earth.

[Edited on 4-19-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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