# Leading Worship and Conscience



## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

For those who lead worship, I am wondering how you handle certain matters of conscience while doing so. For instance, those of you who are EP pastors in non-EP churches, do you violate your conscience by asking the congregation to turn their hymnal to such and such page even though you refuse to sing it? Or can you in good conscience ask the church to recite a non-inspired creed that you yourself refuse to recite? Or requesting general collections in worship?

Please, this is not for disputing the propriety of EP and other things. I ask these things because the answer to such questions may affect my future.


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## Cymro (Apr 18, 2016)

I don't know if this is relevant as nowadays I preach in other churches. As for EP I request the Pastor before hand that I would prefer the psalms to be sung. If there is a compromise I would ask an elder to announce the hymns, and I would announce the psalms with a brief preface of their content. As for credal statements we have no such practice, but I would consider that and a public collectoon as circumstances. .My preference would be neither. But being resident in one church requires slow and patient edifying of the session and then the members.


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## Jake (Apr 18, 2016)

Here's an RPCNA perspective on the matter of leading in worship at a non-EP church for an RP minister: http://wasdin.net/jake/main/archives/192


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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2016)

Friend, why would you be in a leadership position in a congregation where you cannot fill a membership vow to support the work and worship of the local congregation?


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> Friend, why would you be in a leadership position in a congregation where you cannot fill a membership vow to support the work and worship of the local congregation?


Interesting question. Would you think, then, that an EPer can't be a member at a non-EP church?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 18, 2016)

If you are EP in a non-EP denomination, then you cannot be a minister if you are required to tell people to sing hymns. To do so would be asking someone else to do something that you cannot in good conscience do yourself. 

As an EPer in a non-EP church, I do not sing the hymns. I do not, however, believe that it is a reason for separation.


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> If you are EP in a non-EP denomination, then you cannot be a minister if you are required to tell people to sing hymns. To do so would be asking someone else to do something that you cannot in good conscience do yourself.
> 
> As an EPer in a non-EP church, I do not sing the hymns. I do not, however, believe that it is a reason for separation.


 Thanks, that was the type of answer I was expecting. I am curious, however, how certain ministers who are in such a situating handle it. I believe Rev. Glaser is in such a situating, but I might be wrong.


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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2016)

The BOCA is an important part of the equation here, as is the question of being in a leadership role. Many laymen are members of presbyterian churches where they hold different doctrinal views. As long as they don't undermine church authority, that's fine. But the OP goes beyond a doctrinal position to one, not only of practice, but of vows. In many of the US presbyterian denominations, membership vows include supporting the work and worship of the local congregation. How can a member keep such a vow while standing mutely during worship? When it comes to being an officer in that church, and I believe someone who is in front of the congregation should be an officer, then holding to such divergent practices becomes even more difficult. It would be like having a presbyterian elder who refuses to have his children baptised because he holds to credo-baptism.  (Or maybe 75 cents)


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

Cymro said:


> I don't know if this is relevant as nowadays I preach in other churches. As for EP I request the Pastor before hand that I would prefer the psalms to be sung. If there is a compromise I would ask an elder to announce the hymns, and I would announce the psalms with a brief preface of their content. As for credal statements we have no such practice, but I would consider that and a public collectoon as circumstances. .My preference would be neither. But being resident in one church requires slow and patient edifying of the session and then the members.


 Thanks for your insight. I'm curious, in what way is reciting creeds and taking a general collection a circumstance?


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 18, 2016)

As a member of Lakewood PCA I stand mutely when anything other than at least a half way decent rendering of a psalm is sung or a creed or unison or responsal reading is going on. Session didn't think that ran afoul of any vows when I met with them before transferring. If supporting the church were to hold one to sing anything that was slated on the order of worship, that would hold true for a erroneous hymn a member was convinced of. I've heard of sessions that refuse or kick out EPs for membership because of this kind of reason; it is inherently schismatic. 


jwithnell said:


> How can a member keep such a vow while standing mutely during worship?


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> As a member of Lakewood PCA I stand mutely when anything other than at least a half way decent rendering of a psalm is sung or a creed or unison or responsal reading is going on. Session didn't think that ran afoul of any vows when I met with them before transferring. If supporting the church were to hold one to sing anything that was slated on the order of worship, that would hold true for a erroneous hymn a member was convinced of. I've heard of sessions that refuse or kick out EPs for membership because of this kind of reason; it is inherently schismatic.
> 
> 
> jwithnell said:
> ...


 That's a great point. Vowing up to support the worship of the congregation doesn't imply categorically affirming everything that is done in the congregation.

A slight aside: what is your personal convicting on reciring uninspired creeds and congregational responses? I personally refrain at the present, but perhaps I'm in error.


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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2016)

Interesting. The OP question kind of jumped out at me. I had pondered something about this because my vocal range is low and I find unison settings out of my range to sing. But it feels strange to stay silent, when unison selections are in the order of worship, because I have vowed to support the worship and the authority of my church. It seems especially odd for someone in a church leadership position. Mind you, I have a lot of respect for EP, though I don't agree it's required. I likely would be quite content in an EP church should circumstances require it, indeed would be grateful for it, but going the other way around, an EPer in a hymn-singing church, that would be the more difficult situation.

We must have been posting at the same time, I have to problem standing with the saints through the ages and affirming our creeds, and can find no fault with scripture readings that are led by the officers.


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## MW (Apr 18, 2016)

From Charles Hodge, The Church and its Polity, p. 95:



> Others again believe that the Book of Psalms was divinely appointed to be used in public worship, and that the use of hymns written by uninspired men in the service of God is a violation of his commands. With such a belief they cannot unite in worship or communion with those who differ from them in this matter. Thus the evil has gone on increasing until the Church is split into sects and independent communions almost without number. Nevertheless, the existence of such divisions is the less of two evils. When men differ, it is better to avow their diversity of opinion or faith, than to pretend to agree, or to force discordant elements in a formal uncongenial union.


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

MW said:


> From Charles Hodge, The Church and its Polity, p. 95:
> 
> 
> 
> > Others again believe that the Book of Psalms was divinely appointed to be used in public worship, and that the use of hymns written by uninspired men in the service of God is a violation of his commands. With such a belief they cannot unite in worship or communion with those who differ from them in this matter. Thus the evil has gone on increasing until the Church is split into sects and independent communions almost without number. Nevertheless, the existence of such divisions is the less of two evils. When men differ, it is better to avow their diversity of opinion or faith, than to pretend to agree, or to force discordant elements in a formal uncongenial union.



Is Hodge speaking to membership or leadership in the church? While agree with his sentiment, the difficulty is that for many of us this is not practically possible. I and many others can't just get up and move to somewhere where there is an EP congregation. Unfortunately in America there are a very small minority in the already small minority of Reformed congregations.


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## earl40 (Apr 18, 2016)

MW said:


> From Charles Hodge, The Church and its Polity, p. 95:
> 
> 
> 
> > Others again believe that the Book of Psalms was divinely appointed to be used in public worship, and that the use of hymns written by uninspired men in the service of God is a violation of his commands. With such a belief they cannot unite in worship or communion with those who differ from them in this matter. Thus the evil has gone on increasing until the Church is split into sects and independent communions almost without number. Nevertheless, the existence of such divisions is the less of two evils. When men differ, it is better to avow their diversity of opinion or faith, than to pretend to agree, or to force discordant elements in a formal uncongenial union.



Where does matters of conscience come in here? I know in the congregation I am part of the elders appear to understand some do not sing hymns because of the RPW and they do not actively try to enforce us to act against our conscience though they do passively encourage such by singing mostly hymns. I am a back row pew sitter so as to not disrupt our congregation by my non-participation. What I am grateful for is that I voiced my concerns to my Pastor and a small attempt is being made to include a Psalm now and then.


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## Afterthought (Apr 18, 2016)

Earl, fyi, there is an RP church near you ~30 min drive.

Evan, a woman on this board once prayed for me to find such a church, and here I am! I will likewise pray for you too. I will note, however, that there appears to be a Presbyterian Reformed church about an 1.75 hours drive or so, a Free church continuing congregation about 3.75 hours drive in Columbia, MO, and an RP church or two within a 1-2 hour range. If you are not able to move anytime soon, it may be helpful and encouraging for you to visit (if you are able) such a congregation from time to time.

Edit: (If you visit the Columbia station sometime, PM me. Perhaps I can arrange a visit over there at the same time.  )


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## MW (Apr 18, 2016)

Justified said:


> Is Hodge speaking to membership or leadership in the church? While agree with his sentiment, the difficulty is that for many of us this is not practically possible. I and many others can't just get up and move to somewhere where there is an EP congregation. Unfortunately in America there are a very small minority in the already small minority of Reformed congregations.



If you are convinced of EP then you regard it as something God has "prescribed." It should therefore be done in conscientious regard for His authority and blessing. Leaving it undone will create pangs of conscience. If that is the case the best course is to find a church with which you can carry out your conscientious conviction. You don't necessarily have to move there. You may join in membership, and your distance will be an encouragement for the great commission to be visibly demonstrated. It is the responsibility of the church government to provide for the spiritual needs of those under its care. And it only takes a seed to grow a tree, though the tree might take some time to develop.


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## MW (Apr 18, 2016)

earl40 said:


> Where does matters of conscience come in here? I know in the congregation I am part of the elders appear to understand some do not sing hymns because of the RPW and they do not actively try to enforce us to act against our conscience though they do passively encourage such by singing mostly hymns. I am a back row pew sitter so as to not disrupt our congregation by my non-participation. What I am grateful for is that I voiced my concerns to my Pastor and a small attempt is being made to include a Psalm now and then.



Hodge went on to mention that the PCUSA book of psalms and hymns is sanctioned, not prescribed. In other words, it is not seen as a prescribed form of worship; and where that is the case one is free to do or to leave undone as the situation requires. From an EP perspective the psalms are prescribed. In that case the word of God speaks in morally unmistakable terms, Deuteronomy 12:32, -- "thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."


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## timfost (Apr 18, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> I likely would be quite content in an EP church should circumstances require it, indeed would be grateful for it, but going the other way around, an EPer in a hymn-singing church, that would be the more difficult situation.



Excellent point! For this reason, an EPer should probably all the more solemnly consider his position as it relates to his participation in singing, since the EPer is liable to be the dividing party as embodying the less inclusive position.

I'm not seeking to portray EP negatively. I'm sure that this observation is clear from both sides, not without reason. Certainly from the standpoint of unity, the greater burden seems to fall on those who maintain the most exclusive views in this regard.


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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2016)

The whole question of conscience in this case is an interesting one. I don't think people outside of our fellowship would understand the precious concept of freedom within the constraints of God's word. I was perhaps too eager to consider the role of local authority. In any case, it is a difficult balance to reach. I wonder what our "new song" will sound like when we are all singing from the same music?


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

timfost said:


> jwithnell said:
> 
> 
> > I likely would be quite content in an EP church should circumstances require it, indeed would be grateful for it, but going the other way around, an EPer in a hymn-singing church, that would be the more difficult situation.
> ...


You have it backwards. The EPer is more inclusive because the Psalter is catholic. All Christians everywhere should have no problem at all lifting up their hearts in praise using the Lord's own words. Furthermore, the EPer doesn't bind the conscience of anyone. The non-EPer, however, must bind the conscience with uninspired material; that doesn't mean the non-Eper is wrong, but it does mean, I believe, the burden of proof is on him.


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## Justified (Apr 18, 2016)

MW said:


> Justified said:
> 
> 
> > Is Hodge speaking to membership or leadership in the church? While agree with his sentiment, the difficulty is that for many of us this is not practically possible. I and many others can't just get up and move to somewhere where there is an EP congregation. Unfortunately in America there are a very small minority in the already small minority of Reformed congregations.
> ...



Thanks, Rev. Winzer, for your insight and encouragement. I have never heard of becoming a member of a distant congregation. Does this happen?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 18, 2016)

timfost said:


> since the EPer is liable to be the dividing party as embodying the less inclusive position.



They are not the dividing party; those who wish to sing uninspired material are causing the division as they are excluding their brethren from participating in the singing. I believe it was Augustine who said that the catholics sang David's hymns, while the Donatists sang their own.

Edit: Evan beat me to it.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 18, 2016)

I don't; I'm not convinced it is prescribed; if I am at some point I'll change; but not now at this point. And, it is totally unnecessary as far as I can see.


Justified said:


> A slight aside: what is your personal convicting on reciring uninspired creeds and congregational responses? I personally refrain at the present, but perhaps I'm in error.


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## MW (Apr 18, 2016)

Justified said:


> Does this happen?



Yes, and not uncommon in Presbyterianism; and it has its own way of bringing out the catholic qualities of the church.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 18, 2016)

Good grief; Presbyterians sang psalms until the movement to omit them and expand to uninspired hymns. EP, and actually use of instruments in Presbyterianism even more so, is the more recent invention. EPs can sing the psalms wherever they are sung. If they are not divisive there is no reason on God's good earth to force them into another communion if in God's good providence they find themselves in a non EP church (IF THE WILL HAVE THEM). I am absolutely convinced non EP do not understand the regulative principle nor liberty of conscience when they take such a schismatic approach. My PCA church sings hymns; more often all psalms in a service than all hymns, and in evenings, nothing but psalms. No psalms no guts in our profession.


timfost said:


> I'm not seeking to portray EP negatively. I'm sure that this observation is clear from both sides, not without reason. Certainly from the standpoint of unity, the greater burden seems to fall on those who maintain the most exclusive views in this regard.


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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2016)

MW said:


> If you are convinced of EP then you regard it as something God has "prescribed." It should therefore be done in conscientious regard for His authority and blessing. Leaving it undone will create pangs of conscience. If that is the case the best course is to find a church with which you can carry out your conscientious conviction. You don't necessarily have to move there. You may join in membership, and your distance will be an encouragement for the great commission to be visibly demonstrated. It is the responsibility of the church government to provide for the spiritual needs of those under its care. And it only takes a seed to grow a tree, though the tree might take some time to develop.



Commuting to a EP is an option no doubt for many, myself included. Another option would be to appeal to our session with the hope the will accommodate us "weaker brothers" according to conscience? If unsuccessful one could to the Presbytery and then I guess the General Assembly if the Presbytery refuses to do what ought to be done.

Now I see where our form of government is excellent though I see the problems with doing the above process in that I believe most would look at this as sewing discord within the local congregation.


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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Good grief; Presbyterians sang psalms until the movement to omit them and expand to uninspired hymns. EP, and actually use of instruments in Presbyterianism even more so, is the more recent invention. EPs can sing the psalms wherever they are sung. If they are not divisive there is no reason on God's good earth to force them into another communion if in God's good providence they find themselves in a non EP church (IF THE WILL HAVE THEM). I am absolutely convinced non EP do not understand the regulative principle nor liberty of conscience when they take such a schismatic approach.



What makes me sad is that some do understand what they are doing and still passively "force" the hymns on the members who are EP. Even if they think incorrectly the EP are "weaker" brothers they ought to act according to the "weaker" brothers conscience. Of course if one believes there is a command in scripture to sing hymns then they ought to actively enforce all to sing hymns with the Psalms. The lack of enforcement to sing hymns In my most humble opinion shows me most know what they are doing is wrong. Of course I do not _know_ such but _suspect_ such, and shall let Our Lord decide if He shall reward a crown to Our Ministers, on that day, on this issue, for the work, that was done.


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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2016)

Afterthought said:


> Earl, fyi, there is an RP church near you ~30 min drive.



Curious...where?


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## Afterthought (Apr 19, 2016)

earl40 said:


> Curious...where?


It's over in Orlando (~30 min drive from Winter Springs): http://reformedpresbyterian.org/congregations/show/orlando


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## MW (Apr 19, 2016)

earl40 said:


> Another option would be to appeal to our session with the hope the will accommodate us "weaker brothers" according to conscience? If unsuccessful one could to the Presbytery and then I guess the General Assembly if the Presbytery refuses to do what ought to be done.



Councils err, and Presbyterianism has processes for redress, so why not exhaust all means, and may God bless it! But I would not appeal on the basis of being a "weaker brother." If one holds to psalmody he should do it on the basis that it is a New Testament ordinance, and the ordinances _ipso facto_ bind the consciences of all believers. To claim to be a weaker brother is to maintain it is a matter of indifference which requires accommodation; and as it is already treated as a matter of indifference, the appeal accomplishes nothing.


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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2016)

MW said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Another option would be to appeal to our session with the hope the will accommodate us "weaker brothers" according to conscience? If unsuccessful one could to the Presbytery and then I guess the General Assembly if the Presbytery refuses to do what ought to be done.
> ...



I agree and used the quotation marks to insinuate what the average non EP person thinks of us, and if this is so they ought to at least treat this as a matter of a weaker brother and not sing hymns around the "weaker brother". 

I agree I erred in stating one should use this as a defense of EP. Though as a matter of conscience I believe this bad argument could show the weakness of the average non-EP person that thinks this is a matter of indifference.


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