# Does God hate the SINNER and not just the sin?



## alwaysreforming (Jan 3, 2005)

I believe I've seen some info on this before here, but a search did not yield the results I was looking for.

Basically, a Christian sister of mine told me this morning that she wrote a coworker a note and in it wrote, "God loves you." I asked if this person was a Christian, and he is not.

She was very adamant about God NOT hating ANYBODY, and quoted a few Scriptures. I told her I would forward her some information on the subject (to which she replied she was already convinced she was right and would pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten me.)

Anyway, who wants to take a shot at this? Any info on the meaning of the Hebrew word for "hate" would be useful as well, as she said this word is not what we purport it to be. Please avoid the philosophical arguments because these would prove useless to her. (Sorry, Paul! :bigsmile


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 3, 2005)

That study (including hate) is here:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/UnconditionalElection.htm


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## BobVigneault (Jan 3, 2005)

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."


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## BobVigneault (Jan 3, 2005)

Sorry, Matt was posting while I was pasting.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 3, 2005)

Lots of important verses have been cited already, including one of the most important, in my view, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9.13) and this before either one of them had been born. Also, there is Psalm 7.11: "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." Perhaps the person in question should read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards. 

As a side note, in reading our Webmaster's excellent article, I noted with interest that quotes from Pascal were included in a list of Puritan quotes on the subject. I think highly of Pascal but I wouldn't refer to him as a Puritan. Just a side note of some interest to me as a fan of Pascal's writings.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 3, 2005)

I saw a book in the local Christisan book store's theology section titled "Sinners in the hands of a loving God".

I just rolled my eyes.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 3, 2005)

God sends the sinner to hell, not the sin.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 3, 2005)

Yea, and I suppose during Noah's day, _God so loved the world_ that He destroyed everyone but Noah's family becaue he loved them......


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## alwaysreforming (Jan 3, 2005)

Thanks for all the input so far, guys!

Now about the verse:
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"

Is this the same kind of "hate" as in the other verses? It would seem to not be as strong a case because there's not a lot to hate before someone is even born. The Arminian exposition of this verse that I've heard in the past is simply that God was "contrasting" His election of Jacob by using the opposite to describe Esau. 

In a way I hate to even reply back to this sister because she can be so volative and unreasonable that I think she'll write me something like this, "Don't ever write me again until you've learned not to impune God's character and have stopped following all those false theological teachers that you've filled your mind with!"

Something worse happened last time when I sent her an article on the false teachings of Oral Roberts (Her letter began with, "Dear Lost Child,"). And believe me, I tread VERY gently with this sister and RARELY input my opinion into her views. She was just telling me today how she wants to be a pastor, and how much she likes John Haggee. I've been biting my tongue on the female pastor issue for two years now! Help!!!


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 3, 2005)

Chris,
As I have suggested before to members, when a person is interested in your position, your opinion, they will concientiously inquire. She is already on-guard. The profit from your conversation thus far is limited; wouldn't you agree. Why throw your pearls before the swine? My opinion, when it comes to discussing things with woman one on one, woman should deal with them.....


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Jan 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
> 
> Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
> ...



Please, go to www.youthontherock.com, join the forum, and show them those verses. That site is filled with "Jesus loves everyone equally, especially witches!" and "God loves you, you cute little satanist!".

I have been trying to show them verses like that since June and I have only changed a few minds.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Jan 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I saw a book in the local Christisan book store's theology section titled "Sinners in the hands of a loving God".
> 
> I just rolled my eyes.



I would have picked it up and thrown it across the room, and would have made a big scene (but I am a filthy sinner, don't listen to me).


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## alwaysreforming (Jan 3, 2005)

I smell a big thread distraction coming on, but...

Posted by Scott Bushey:
"Chris,
As I have suggested before to members, when a person is interested in your position, your opinion, they will concientiously inquire. She is already on-guard. The profit from your conversation thus far is limited; wouldn't you agree. Why throw your pearls before the swine? My opinion, when it comes to discussing things with woman one on one, woman should deal with them..... "

Scott,
I appreciate your godly wisdom. She goes to a mega church where there is not much wise leadership for her. She is in a leadership position herself (in charge of the Prayer Ministry). Usually she asks my opinion, but when I can tell that she will not receive it well (which is the vast majority) I sidestep it (like the female pastor idea). Today I gave my opinion when it wasn't asked for "and received in myself the due penalty for my indiscretion." But she did ask me about John Hagee, and I tried not to say anything other than I didn't "like" him. {Time to move the thread probably, but...} what do you do when there is a member of your church (or elsewhere) that has a REAL hard time maintaining relationships with others because of their very intense and unyielding personalities and you feel that in some way you are needed to "shepherd" them? And if you don't then you know that that person will have NO ONE in their life that will stick with them through it all and the only relationships they will ever have are NEW ones! What should I do?


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## Scott (Jan 3, 2005)

God hates the sinner as well as the sin. Anyone intimately familiar with the Psalms through prayer and song knows this intimately. This theme is repeated several times.

God hates the sinner so much that he makes the elect into new creations. The old man, the natural man, dies. The new man is born again into spiritual life. God destroys all sinners somehow, whether through conversion or judgment.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> My opinion, when it comes to discussing things with woman one on one, woman should deal with them.....



Amen Scott! Let the older women teach the younger women... Titus 2:4

I have seen many a man fall because of violating the bounderies. I have also seen so called counselling sessions turn into sin because this precaution wasn't taken.

Oh, the deceitfulness of sin.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 3, 2005)

Well, I work with young girls! But my wife works with me.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 3, 2005)

Adam,
Do you have all girls there at your home? How many?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 3, 2005)

I understand that. Your situation is a paternal one. You wouldn't be allowed to work with girls if you were not married. Your wife probably plays a large role in your job. 

I don't think you can be legalistic about it but a guy ought to be very careful and ready to hand off a counselling situation to an older woman. I am not saying you can't have friends that are girls either. There just needs to be a lot of caution exhibited. Boundaries for instance.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 3, 2005)

> Scott,
> I appreciate your godly wisdom. She goes to a mega church where there is not much wise leadership for her. She is in a leadership position herself (in charge of the Prayer Ministry). Usually she asks my opinion, but when I can tell that she will not receive it well (which is the vast majority) I sidestep it (like the female pastor idea). Today I gave my opinion when it wasn't asked for "and received in myself the due penalty for my indiscretion." But she did ask me about John Hagee, and I tried not to say anything other than I didn't "like" him. {Time to move the thread probably, but...} what do you do when there is a member of your church (or elsewhere) that has a REAL hard time maintaining relationships with others because of their very intense and unyielding personalities and you feel that in some way you are needed to "shepherd" them? And if you don't then you know that that person will have NO ONE in their life that will stick with them through it all and the only relationships they will ever have are NEW ones! What should I do?



Serious question requiring serious answer: Are you inclined toward her in the least?


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ConfederateTheocrat_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



The impulsivness of youth...you'll get over it...


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I saw a book in the local Christisan book store's theology section titled "Sinners in the hands of a loving God".
> 
> I just rolled my eyes.



I say we start a thread quoting Bad Book Titles!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Adam,
> Do you have all girls there at your home? How many?



We are almost full, and by the end of this week most likely will be. We will be up to 12 girls ages 13-18. The Lord has been good and protected me from even the slightest of acusation, but then again I work smart with my girls as well!

As I said my wife is with me 90% of the time and I never close a door when in a room alone with a girl (on the rare ocasion that happens at all.)

We have built some incredible relationships with many of our girls past, and present. We keep in touch with many some now being as old as 26! (We've been here 12 years).

I love working with high school girls! They are always open to counsel and seek advice often. From my experience with boys (5 years) they don't seek advice or counsel nearly as often instead choosing to fight with each other and see who can talk the biggest game and be believed.

It's great when these abused kids come into my home hating and not trusting most men, but almost instantly light up and become excited to meet a man who actually loves them in a non-sexual or threatening way. I am proud to restore my girls faith in men and Lord willing God as well.

I can't imagine doing anything else.


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## Ivan (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> God sends the sinner to hell, not the sin.



Whoa! Good point!


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## Ivan (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ConfederateTheocrat_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



 Now that is funny.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> I understand that. Your situation is a paternal one. You wouldn't be allowed to work with girls if you were not married. Your wife probably plays a large role in your job.
> 
> I don't think you can be legalistic about it but a guy ought to be very careful and ready to hand off a counselling situation to an older woman. I am not saying you can't have friends that are girls either. There just needs to be a lot of caution exhibited. Boundaries for instance.



I agree, but either God has blessed me with a gift or made me unattractive to anyone besides my wife.

I have had deep relationships with many females young and old. It does indeed help tremendously that my wife works with me, but a few female staff have come to me many times for advice and counsel as well and never so muched as hinted at flirting.

It always seems like the female halves of our friendships (the wives and girl friends) develop closer relationships with me than the males do. I have no idea why.

My mother told it's because I am very good at listening and many husbands and boyfriends simply are not. She tells me to be careful because many women fall for a guy because "He listens to me."

The Lord is with me as is my wife. I am not prideful, less I fall!


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## Ivan (Jan 4, 2005)

God hates sin so much that He will discpline His children, taking whatever measures are necessary to correct His child.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2005)

women build closer relationships faster and deeper than men do by nature anyhow...

All the men I hear complaining "why don't I have any friends" that's usually why...cause you're all scared of eachother and busy providing for your families....women, open books-telephones-talk-subjects are typically more personal than men's subjects, etc.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> women build closer relationships faster and deeper than men do by nature anyhow...
> 
> All the men I hear complaining "why don't I have any friends" that's usually why...cause you're all scared of eachother and busy providing for your families....women, open books-telephones-talk-subjects are typically more personal than men's subjects, etc.



Oh I absolutely agree with that!

I don't have many (maybe 1-2) deep friendships with males because they SEEM to be afraid of talking about anything other than sports and cars!


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## Ivan (Jan 4, 2005)

I have a number of good, close friendships with other men, but that is through the ministry. They are all fellow ministers, so that may account for it. Otherwise, I have better relationships with women. I work better with them. I get along better with them. Just like 'em better!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 4, 2005)

> I have better relationships with women. I work better with them. I get along better with them. Just like 'em better!


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## Irishcat922 (Jan 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > I have better relationships with women. I work better with them. I get along better with them. Just like 'em better!



They smell better!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 4, 2005)

I have a feeling I would get along with most, if not all of you guys HERE! I can't seem to find anyone (outside my pastor) like you guys.:bigsmile:


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## alwaysreforming (Jan 4, 2005)

*Mainly for Scott Bushey*

Scott, previously you asked:
"Serious question requiring serious answer: Are you inclined toward her in the least?"

My immediate answer is NO. However, I decided to move this to a more private forum just in case she ever decides to visit this board, she wouldn't feel exploited. Any others who wish to input in this situation are invited to attend as well. Thanks! I think I'll call it "Difficult People"


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2005)

I think the only place she won't see it will be in the Dad's only place...so I guess I'll bow out....HONEY! You're needed in Dad's Toolshed!!!! LOL!


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