# Question about the Sabbath for those holding to the Westminster Standards



## MichaelNZ (Jan 31, 2015)

After seeing the discussion about the Super Bowl and the Sabbath, and the objections thereof to those upholding the Westminster Confession of Faith, I have a question for those people who attend a church that holds primarily to the Westminster Confession.

*As per Chapter XXI, Paragraph VIII of the Westminster Confession, do you spend every single moment of Sunday engaged in the worship of God, reading Christian books, watching Christian videos, discussing the Christian faith* (I mean apart from time spent eating, sleeping, preparing food etc)? Would you ever, say, read a novel or watch a secular TV programme at any time on Sunday?

While my church does affirm the Westminster Confession (in addition to the Three Forms of Unity), our pastor has told me that Christ is our Sabbath rest and he doesn't seem at all legalistic with Sabbath keeping. He has mentioned that the Sabbath is supposed to be a delight.


----------



## Cymro (Jan 31, 2015)

True it is that the Sabbath is a delight, but it is delight in Christ and the things of Christ. 
It is a tithe of one in seven to the Lord, and for our spiritual improvement and comfort.

Henry Martyn's wrote that,"we may judge by our attitude to the Sabbath whether eternity
will be forced upon us." All secular activities are unnecessary as they are eclipse by more
solid joys and lasting pleasures. The things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are unseen
are eternal. One of my own country men wrote,"every Lord's day is the true Christian's Easter day."
It is a rest for the soul and the opportunity to put aside all other hindrances that prevent a closer
communion with our Lord. Someone wrote,"the decline in religion is noted by the manner of spending
the Sabbath,especially in conversation before and after the preaching." Forgive another quotation but 
itis apposite, written by Swinnock,"on other days God feeds us, on the Sabbath he feasts us."


----------



## JP Wallace (Jan 31, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> our pastor has told me that Christ is our Sabbath rest and he doesn't seem at all legalistic with Sabbath keeping



What is your definition of what it means to be 'legalistic with Sabbath keeping'?


----------



## kodos (Jan 31, 2015)

Do you keep the other 9 commandments perfectly? Or do you only expect perfection from those who love the 4th Commandment?

Your pastor is quoting from Isaiah 58. Please read it -

13 - “If you *turn away your foot *from the Sabbath,
*From doing your pleasure *on My *holy* day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The *holy day *of the Lord honorable,
And shall *honor Him*, not doing *your own *ways,
Nor finding *your own *pleasure,
Nor speaking *your own *words,

14 - *Then* you shall *delight* yourself *in the Lord*;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And *feed you *with the heritage of Jacob your father.
*The mouth of the Lord has spoken*.”

You will have to do some homework in order to show us why you consider turning all thoughts towards God on the Sabbath "legalism" and yet "not looking at a woman with lust" is not legalism?

What does it mean when God tells you in the 4th Commandment to keep the day "holy"? Where in the New Testament is this idea repealed? My question is - why do you want to spend time doing anything else? By the time the Lords Day is over I always feel like the day is too short. There's more I could have done - more I could have read. More time I could have spent with God's People. More time I could have spent in prayer. More time I could have spent discussing the Word with my family. One thing I have yet to spend time on are deeds of mercy. We are challenged in this in the church. Yet here's a day to take care of widows, the poor and orphans.

Why would I want to watch movies and read novels in comparison to that?


----------



## kodos (Jan 31, 2015)

I also find it curious that people say "their rest is in Christ", yet use that to excuse breaking the 4th Commandment to spend time apart from Him.

Jesus is present in the means of grace and communion with the body of Christ. Not in secular TV shows and books.

Interestingly enough He also promises that which is done to the "least of these" is done to Him as well, giving us an interesting view on deeds of mercy.

Christ is present so richly in the Sabbath Day, and yet some who claim to have rest in Him wish to flee from Him and run back to the World. The irony is pretty rich.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Jan 31, 2015)

kodos said:


> I also find it curious that people say "their rest is in Christ", yet use that to excuse breaking the 4th Commandment to spend time apart from Him.
> 
> Jesus is present in the means of grace and communion with the body of Christ. Not in secular TV shows and books.
> 
> ...



I have often heard the "rest in Christ" argument from fellow Baptists. I think they are mainly getting this from Hebrews 3-4, but I think it is pretty clear in those passages that the ultimate rest being spoken of is a future rest that will take place in heaven, and not one that we are already fully entered into.


----------



## Pilgrim Standard (Jan 31, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> As per Chapter XXI, Paragraph VIII of the Westminster Confession, do you spend every single moment of Sunday engaged in the worship of God, reading Christian books, watching Christian videos, discussing the Christian faith (I mean apart from time spent eating, sleeping, preparing food etc)?


On a given Lord's day, we listen to between 2 and 4 sermons, attend service, and I read to the Children. Currently Manual of Christian Doctrine. We sing Psalms, catechize and discuss the doctrine and word received that day. No we do not keep the Sabbath perfectly. However, we do delight in the Lord and his Word, and worshipping him with our Church, and as a family when at home.



MichaelNZ said:


> Would you ever, say, read a novel or watch a secular TV programme at any time on Sunday?


No. We are given a full day to rest from these things. While these are permissible on 6 other days, they are not on this day. It would be foolish in my mind, to waste the day on the things of this world, when we are given this day to turn our hearts and minds to the things of God. The world is in my face 313 days a year. The Lord has given me 52 days of rest from that. If I did have a television, I would not allow it to be turned on in a Lord's day. Why train my children that the world has something to offer that is more desirable than the things of the Lord on his Day? This is no Legalism. This is accepting what the Lord has given, and recognizing that we are due him 1 full day in 7. We have a duty to the Lord, it is especially unique duty on the Sabbath. 

I heard an illustration once. One who carried 7 gold coins came upon a destitute man. He gave 6 of his coins to the man of destitute. However the man who received the coins took it upon himself to overcome the giver of 6 to take the 7th also unto himself. What would we say of this action?


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Jan 31, 2015)

The fourth commandment is as moral as the other nine and we are bound to follow it as strictly as the Jews did, apart from the ceremonial differences where they were more burdened such as the labor involved in the sacrifices etc. On the other hand, what the Scripture proofs for acts of necessity and mercy show (the disciples eating grain-heads in the field walking along on the Lord's day from one place to the next and Christ's appeal to David eating the shewbread; and Christ's healing on the Lord's day) is that while we are as strictly to follow this commandment as the Jews, they were no less free when it came to acts of necessity and mercy.


----------



## VictorBravo (Jan 31, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> He has mentioned that the Sabbath is supposed to be a delight.



Indeed. And sometimes our focus is completely negative, as in focusing on the things we are not supposed to do. I call this "guardrail thinking," as in driving a car by looking only at guardrails rather than looking down the road. You are not going to enjoy the drive, for sure.

Maybe a lesser to the greater analogy might help: Let's say your wife's birthday is today and you have promised to enjoy it with her in her company. There are at least two approaches you can follow for the day:

1. Make a list of all the things you promise not to do, and spend most of the day scrupulously avoiding doing those things ("I won't go out for beer with my buddies today, I won't spend all day on the golf course, I won't do this...I won't do that...").

2. Focus on being together, learning more about your wife, what she likes, spending time communicating.

Which is approach is more likely to lead to "delight"?

Likewise on the Lord's Day. We can make lists of all the things we shouldn't do and go over them meticulously and constantly, and miss the delight.

Or we can commune with our Lord by reading his Word, prayer, meditation, quiet fellowship, etc. For me, sometimes sitting in a chair reading a Psalm and drifting off to a nap for a half hour is a delight beyond any thing else. 

Focus on the blessings and the means of grace and everything else seems to flow without much effort at all. The yoke is easy, the burden is light.


----------



## whirlingmerc (Jan 31, 2015)

All of life is a form of worship


----------



## VictorBravo (Jan 31, 2015)

whirlingmerc said:


> All of life is a form of worship



Maybe so, but I don't see how it relates to the topic of the 4th Commandment.

I reflect on that by saying that all my living is worship, for sure, and apart from Christ's work and apart from hearing his voice on the matter, my living worship is rebellion.


----------



## kodos (Jan 31, 2015)

VictorBravo said:


> ...apart from Christ's work and apart from hearing his voice on the matter, my living worship is rebellion.




Bravo! Victor ... Bravo


----------



## Miss Marple (Jan 31, 2015)

I would deny that time I spend reading a newspaper, or a novel, or talking to a friend about a movie, or jogging, is time "spent apart from Him." I dare say I don't spend any time "apart from Him." To characterize all thought/activity into either or a secular or sacred sphere seems wrong to me.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Jan 31, 2015)

The thing is, Michael, when I read what brothers like Rom, Chris, Jeff, Victor and others are writing, I don't hear "legalism." I hear men delighting in the Lord and His Christ and all the gracious provisions that are ours in Him. 

I grant, as I did on the sister thread to this, that this whole matter can be treated in a Pharisaical way that can make the Sabbath oppresive. Victor and others have acknowledged such and eschewed such an approach. 

In fact, it is the world, the flesh, and the devil that oppress us. I realize that we are to die to them at all times, but we do give way, sadly, and the Lord provides time in daily secret and private prayer as respites from such, and the Lord's Day in particular as a day of public, private, and secret rest. The Lord and His day are not the oppressors, and don't let the real oppressor paint them as such. 

I hope that you can come to hear a positive, delightful treatment of this day of days for what it is and not mistake it for imposing burdens, but as the day in which burdens are particularly lifted. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## kodos (Jan 31, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> I would deny that time I spend reading a newspaper, or a novel, or talking to a friend about a movie, or jogging, is time "spent apart from Him." I dare say I don't spend any time "apart from Him." To characterize all thought/activity into either or a secular or sacred sphere seems wrong to me.



Sure, God is present everywhere, David says as much - he also says that God is present in Sheol. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though.

The Question is - where are your thoughts - do they rest _on Him_? Are you spending _quality_ time with your Heavenly Father? Those of us who are married or have children know we can spend time with them in our living room, but still ignore them. How many wives plead with us to spend "quality time" with the family? This is what I'm trying to express (poorly, no doubt).

We know that God's blesses the Means of Grace - by putting His stamp on them. Christ is present in the Word of God in a way that He isn't in talking to your friend about _The Avengers_. So in a real sense, our theology teaches us that some things are set apart. The Means of Grace, and the Lord's Day are set apart. Many ministers speak of this when blessing the elements of the Lord's Supper, saying that the ordinary (bread, wine) have been set apart from an ordinary use to a sacramental use.

Talking to your friend about her spiritual walk, her physical needs, and sharpening each other is something however that is wonderful on the Lord's Day. But note how we tend to gravitate towards that which is temporal and not that which is eternal? As many have expressed - the Sabbath Day is a training vehicle to prepare us for eternity. Can we put away temporal things for a single day of the week and focus on the eternal? How will we enjoy eternal life?

Are there not six other days of the week to spend discussing novels, and movies? 85% of the week (rounding down) can be spent in these pursuits. 15% (rounding up) of the week the Lord has set apart particularly for Himself. How gracious is our Lord!

The parable that Benjamin gives is a good one.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Jan 31, 2015)

kodos said:


> Are there not six other days of the week to spend discussing novels, and movies? 85% of the week (rounding down) can be spent in these pursuits. 15% (rounding up) of the week the Lord has set apart particularly for Himself. How gracious is our Lord!


A "tithe" of the week was also mentioned in Jeff's (*Cymro*, post #2) post. As a new covenant minister I'm not an advocate of strict tithing, by any means. But I suppose it is possible to see an even closer (i.e. "more exact") sense in which the Lord's Day is his "tithe."

Consider how 1/3 of even the Lord's day is already consumed by us (somewhat of necessity) in sleep. If we assume 8hrs (1/3 of 24hrs) is given up to our own demands, and if we consider there are 21 such divisions during the week, God urges (or _commands,_ let's not soften it...) our remembrance of slightly less than 10% of the time (2 portions, 16hrs) he has provided to us in a given week mostly (+90%) to do with what we will.

Again, I'm actually among them who oppose teaching even a "voluntary evangelical tax" (the divine-legal Tithe). So, I don't think this is a "good argument" for promoting the enforcement of such compulsion of conscience. But it is an observation consistent with certain exacting demands of the old (Mosaic) covenant.

Chris's (*Naphtali Press*, post #8) is quite good, in describing how the Jews then, and we today, are to strictly keep our Sabbaths--less by noting the specific limits on our preferences; more by admiring the grace of God and demonstrating it in the opportunity. Jesus clarifies; he does not set aside the truth of the Sabbath.


----------



## Free Christian (Jan 31, 2015)

I once went to a Church and on a particular day the regular Preacher wasn't there. We were told he was not here today as there was a big market on and he was there as it was a good opportunity to sell some of his furniture that he makes! Needless to say we left that church.


----------



## Miss Marple (Jan 31, 2015)

I am not referring so much to the concept of "God is everywhere," which of course I acknowledge.

I refer more to the Christian philosophy, the Biblical philosophy, that whether I eat, or drink, or whatever I do, do it all to the glory of God. The concept of a consecrated life.

Now, that would exclude sinning. I can't murder to the glory of God.

But I would take the position of denying that I am less close to God, necessarily, when I am doing the dishes or making coffee or doing my taxes. I don't see a sacred/secular distinction prescribed in the Christian life.


----------



## Miss Marple (Jan 31, 2015)

To elaborate, may I respond to:

"Are there not six other days of the week to spend discussing novels, and movies? 85% of the week (rounding down) can be spent in these pursuits. 15% (rounding up) of the week the Lord has set apart particularly for Himself. How gracious is our Lord!"

Yes, there are six other days. But I don't discuss them in a secular way any day of the week. Whether I am discussing a novel or a movie, washing my hair, or walking the dog, I am not living a secular life. 

My point is NOT that watching the Super Bowl all day on Sunday instead of attending to the divinely appointed means of grace of worship is ok. If God commands or forbids an activity, His word should be adhered to, or I am sinning, and in that case am NOT closer to God. 

My point is that I am not necessarily less close to God when teaching my daughter a math lesson than when I am reading the Bible. I don't see my life as divided between secular and sacred activities, and I am not convinced that I should. My whole life as a Christian is sacred; unless I am sinning at a given point. At least that's the best I understand how it should be.


----------



## Peairtach (Jan 31, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> After seeing the discussion about the Super Bowl and the Sabbath, and the objections thereof to those upholding the Westminster Confession of Faith, I have a question for those people who attend a church that holds primarily to the Westminster Confession.
> 
> *As per Chapter XXI, Paragraph VIII of the Westminster Confession, do you spend every single moment of Sunday engaged in the worship of God, reading Christian books, watching Christian videos, discussing the Christian faith* (I mean apart from time spent eating, sleeping, preparing food etc)? Would you ever, say, read a novel or watch a secular TV programme at any time on Sunday?
> 
> While my church does affirm the Westminster Confession (in addition to the Three Forms of Unity), our pastor has told me that Christ is our Sabbath rest and he doesn't seem at all legalistic with Sabbath keeping. He has mentioned that the Sabbath is supposed to be a delight.



We do rest in Christ by faith and He has fully entered into His Father's and our Fathers' rest. But we ourselves have not yet entered that rest, except in principle by faith in Christ.

Therefore - as the writer to the Hebrews says - there remains the keeping of a Sabbath Day unto the New Testament people of God, For the One that is entered into His rest, He also has ceased from His own works, as God did from His.

We will never cease from the fight with the world, the flesh and the Devil, from the tasks of the Great Commission and Creation Mandate until we enter that place that is characterised by rest and worship.

Thetefore we have not reached the Sabbatical antitype, and the type remains for us until death, and for the world until the Eschaton.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Peairtach (Jan 31, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> To elaborate, may I respond to:
> 
> "Are there not six other days of the week to spend discussing novels, and movies? 85% of the week (rounding down) can be spent in these pursuits. 15% (rounding up) of the week the Lord has set apart particularly for Himself. How gracious is our Lord!"
> 
> ...



You need to read John Murray on specific and generic worship. If this distinction is broken down we could make walking the dog , teaching maths or doing the ironing part of the Lord's Day worship services.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Jan 31, 2015)

That Murray distinction that Richard cited is vital. I agree with Miss Marple that we are indeed to worship whatever we are doing, because life is religion. I wholeheartedly affirm that, but also the regulative principle, which defines worship. In life, what the Bible does not forbid (either explicitly or impliedly), we may do. The opposite is true for worship: as for elements, we are to do only what is commanded. 

I like to put it this way sometimes: I am to worship if I am watching a baseball game (generic; not on the Sabbath we assume!), but I don't play a game of baseball in public worship (specific and regulated by the Word). So I worship while shining my shoes, but I don't shine my shoes in public worship. This is the kind of simple distinction for which we are arguing. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## Miss Marple (Jan 31, 2015)

(sigh) I did not say that we can make walking the dog, teaching maths or doing ironing a part of public worship. I just said that I don't think I am necessarily farther from God when I do these or any other non-sinful activities. I guess I am not making myself clear but it does seem Dr. Strange understood my point


----------



## Andres (Jan 31, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> After seeing the discussion about the Super Bowl and the Sabbath, and the objections thereof to those upholding the Westminster Confession of Faith, I have a question for those people who attend a church that holds primarily to the Westminster Confession.
> 
> *As per Chapter XXI, Paragraph VIII of the Westminster Confession, do you spend every single moment of Sunday engaged in the worship of God, reading Christian books, watching Christian videos, discussing the Christian faith* (I mean apart from time spent eating, sleeping, preparing food etc)? Would you ever, say, read a novel or watch a secular TV programme at any time on Sunday?
> 
> While my church does affirm the Westminster Confession (in addition to the Three Forms of Unity), our pastor has told me that Christ is our Sabbath rest and he doesn't seem at all legalistic with Sabbath keeping. He has mentioned that the Sabbath is supposed to be a delight.



May I commend this excellent sermon series on the Sabbath to you...I think it will answer many of your questions. 

The Sabbath Day - by Rev Mark Koller


----------



## MichaelNZ (Feb 1, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies.

I would like to add that my church was founded by those of the Dutch Reformed tradition and a significant portion of our members are either Dutch of of Dutch descent. They seem to have a less 'restrictive' (I won't use the term 'legalistic') view of the Sabbath than most of the people on this board. We don't even use that term - instead we call it the 'Lord's Day'. Is that significant? Our pastor (who studied at Mid-America Reformed Seminary) told me that it is okay to go for a walk on the Lord's Day.

I have seen members of our church go to the supermarket or buy food from a takeout shop on the Lord's Day. I know that views of working on the Sabbath can be taken to the extreme that the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland takes them. I was told by a member of our church who was involved with them that they believe it is a sin to take public transport to church on the Sabbath (presumably because the driver is working). 

You may not consider the situations above 'legalistic', but I have obsessive-compulsive disorder and have a real problem with legalism and determining if something is a sin or not. So I do tend to focus on the things I can't do on that day. When I've asked my pastor about the Lord's Day he said it is primarily to glorify God.

I personally would observe the Lord's Day more strictly if I was living with other Christians or with a Christian wife. I think there is merit in setting one day aside to worship God and I wouldn't take a job that required me to work on the Lord's Day unless it was something in the medical field that would be a valid exception.

I'll have a listen to the sermon series on the Lord's Day. Thanks for recommending it.


----------



## kodos (Feb 1, 2015)

I just want to address the driver situation - with public transportation. I think that before we start talking about people as 'extremist' or 'legalistic', we have to understand the _heart_ of why people have an issue of conscience regarding such things.

The reason someone will have a problem with having others work for you on the Lord's Day, is that it keeps that other person _away_ from the means of grace.

Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If our employment of another keeps them from church (I have talked with some folks who tell me that they'd love to come to church sometime, but they have to work) then we are keeping them from hearing the gospel.

That is breaking Jesus' command to "love your neighbor as yourself".

This is why in Exodus 20:10 - "In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, *nor your male servant*, *nor your female servant*, nor your cattle, *nor your stranger who is within your gates*."

This is particularly poignant when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy. Look at Deut. 5:14,15 - 
"...nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant *may rest as well as you*. 15 *And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt*, and the LORD your God *brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm*; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day."

This is important, because we too used to be slaves, spiritually speaking - and were liberated by our mighty God, and entered into spiritual rest. We desire that the strangers to the promise of God would come hear the gospel, and enter into that same rest! We are committed that no such barrier should be placed by us by worldly employments.

So please, brother - I encourage you to consider that rather than being 'extremists', these brothers and sisters who might seem odd to you, may have a real heart for the lost, and those outside of the visible church.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Feb 1, 2015)

Michael:

Thanks for sharing more about yourself and your situation in #25 (and my warmest greetings to your dear Pastor, Rev. Stolte, whom I helped train at Mid-America). 

Your mention of a walk on the Lord's Day is quite instructive. No one in this discussion, of whom I am aware, has said anything to the contrary. I think it quite important that we catch the meaning of the WCF in its prohibition of "recreations" (noting the plural) as a term of art connected with the Book of Sports and not a broad prohibition of anything that anyone might suppose is such. For example, there is no prohibition of fellowship with friends around a meal or taking a refreshing walk between services or the like. That is not what we're talking about with the prohibition of "recreations." We are talking about organized games, which were held in place of what would have been afternoon services were the Puritans permitted to have them (the Stuarts thought one service per Lord's Day, and the use not only of the Prayer Book but the Book of Homilies, was best). 

Michael, I am not even suggesting that all on this Board agree in all the details of application of the Lord's Day. I've seen enough to know that we don't. Some may regard that as disturbing. I don't. We can differ on some of the applications, but it is true that the WCF teaches that the Day is His in a way that we refrain from things that we lawfully do the rest of the week (except for duties of necessity and mercy--again we'll differ in some particulars here), laying aside such to engage more pointedly in the worship of our God. 

I always say to God's people, why don't we think more about how we can bring the blessings of this one Day, that is particularly His, into the other six days of the week, rather than bringing what pertains to those days into this Day? Why not challenge a priority for Him in the other six days than for ourselves on this one Day that is His? Think about it. And every blessing on this wonderful Day!

Peace,
Alan


----------



## Peairtach (Feb 1, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> (sigh) I did not say that we can make walking the dog, teaching maths or doing ironing a part of public worship. I just said that I don't think I am necessarily farther from God when I do these or any other non-sinful activities. I guess I am not making myself clear but it does seem Dr. Strange understood my point



Sorry if I took you up wrongly.

It is right that we seek to do all things to God's glory, but, as you know, essential distinctions are made in and drawn by good and necessary consequence from Scripture between what we can do to God's glory on the Lord's Day via-a-vis the other six days, what we can do in worship via-a-vis what we can do in non-worship, and what we can do in public worship via-a-vis private worship.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Feb 1, 2015)

I like Alan’s statement focusing on propriety. It reminds me of Calvin, where we are to bring the experience of the Lord’s day into the rest of the week, and not vice versa. As he is cited by Nicholas Bownd at various points:


> When it is said, Thou shalt labor six days, our Lord would hereby signify unto us, that we ought not to complain of yielding unto Him one certain day, when He leaves unto us six for one. As if He did say, “Shall the cost and charge be great unto you, to choose one day which may be wholly given to My service? that you do no other thing in it, but read and exercise yourselves in My law, or hear My doctrine which shall be preached unto you; a day to come to the temple to the end you may there be confirmed by the sacrifices which are there made; a day to call upon My name, to declare and protest that |237| you are of the number and company of My people. Ought this to be grievous and troublesome unto you, seeing you have six days free to traffic and to do your business in? When I use such gentleness towards you, that I demand but one day of seven, is not this an over great unthankfulness on your part, if you complain of this time as being evil employed? if you be such covetous and niggardly wretches, as not to spare Me one seventh part of the time? I have given you your whole life, wheresoever the sun shines upon you; you ought to acknowledge My goodness, and how that I am a liberal Father towards you. For this sun which I make to shine is to give you a means to go and walk by, to the end that every one may do his business. And yet for all this, why is it that I shall not have one day among seven in which every one should withdraw himself from his travail and labor? that you be not wrapped in the care of the world, and so have no care to think on Me?” Now then we see that this sentence of travailing the six days is not placed as a commandment, but is rather a permission which God gives, and that to reproach the unthankfulness of men, if they observe not the Sabbath day, and sanctify it in such sort as we have spoken…. So then when men shall have well considered of this thing, they shall be convinced that God bears with them as a Father, which should show himself pitiful to His children. And therefore let us take diligent heed that we be not ungrateful, but be provoked and allured to serve our God so much the more, seeing He commands us not those things which might seem over bitter and painful unto us, but has a due regard to our power and ability. Therefore when He bears with us after this manner, and leaves unto us our profits and commodities, so much more dissolute, wicked, and inexcusable are we, if we are not inflamed to yield ourselves wholly unto Him. (Calvin, Deut. 5, Sermon 35. [Ten Commandments, 39r–39v, 40r. Sermons upon Deuteronomie, 206, 207]).
> 
> Let us know that it is not sufficient that we come to the sermon on the Sunday to receive some good doctrine, and to call upon the name of God; but we must digest those things, and that by this means we are so formed and fashioned to the thing, that all the rest of the week cost us nothing to aspire to our God, and that we need but to call to our mind, that which we shall have learned before, at good leisure, when our minds were (as it were) unwrapped from all those things which hinder us to recount the word, and works of God. (Calvin, Deut. 5, Sermon 34. [“…fashioned to this thing, that the Monday, and all the rest of the week beside, cost us….” Ten Commandments, 36v–37r. Cf. Sermons on Deuteronomie, 204]).
> 
> ...


----------



## aadebayo (Feb 1, 2015)

Free Christian said:


> I once went to a Church and on a particular day the regular Preacher wasn't there. We were told he was not here today as there was a big market on and he was there as it was a good opportunity to sell some of his furniture that he makes! Needless to say we left that church.



Excellent decision to leave a church where the Minister dare I say desecrated the Lord's day.


----------



## Free Christian (Feb 2, 2015)

That wasn't all they ended up doing. They even eventually had "young peoples music worship nights" where a lot of the older members were not happy as they couldn't even understand the music and lyrics or join in. Thankfully I missed that one. I watched it go down hill fast. They never sang the Psalms but sang older hymns, but then wanted to and did eventually bring in the Praise Worship songs which were like singing a short chorus over and over. Happy clappy stuff! At a meeting I brought up singing the Psalms, I was told, "oh the Psalms were just old Jewish folk type songs" and "the young ones wont want to sing those". Near Christmas time they had the young ones draw pictures of the nativity scene and things like that and put them up on the wall in the coffee room. I commented to the preacher "why do you have those up, the wise men were not there at the birth?" (let alone the rest of the imagery) He replied "They weren't I know, but the children like it". I didn't go to the meeting when they did a Christmas play but heard the preacher say what a wonderful angel his niece played. They were not a reformed church but were tolerable, if you know what I mean, before the rapid decline. The speed at which they went downhill though would have left a NASCAR for dead. It was sad to see.
I am so glad that God kept me and my wife from being drawn into such things and gave us the strength of conviction to turn our backs on those things and see them for what they were. I often wonder why someone as pathetic as myself is shown so much mercy.
We have a wonderful Lord that's for sure.


----------



## aadebayo (Feb 2, 2015)

These changes tend to be subtle and then the acceleration begins. We had to leave our previous church over a year ago. The church professed to be reformed, but worship (if it could be deemed as such) contained new songs and most of the old hymns have been murdered. Then the church participated in the passion for life in 2010 which was when the rapid decline began. They included supposed sermons of false teachers like Bill Hybels as "evangelistic tools". It was in 2013 that we finally left the church. I no longer trust churches that come from the grouping this church belonged.


----------



## Kaj (Feb 2, 2015)

I've had conscious scruples with some of the conversations we have on the Sabbath. While I desire to esteem the day by steering clear of common talk concerning our affairs from the rest of the week, usually the after-service fellowship seems to go this way. People will discuss marriage, education, money, etc. 

I've therefore wondered if to enjoy such 'fellowship' (for they are believers who's company I delight in) is appropriate for the Lord's Day, considering that this is the only day most of us get to meet together.

What would you brethren say about the sort of conversation we ought to have on the Lord's Day, and respond to my situation?

-Vincent.


----------



## aadebayo (Feb 2, 2015)

It is true to say that you could be forgiven after visiting some professing evangelical churches and indeed some professing reformed churches that you have just visited a comedy show or a theater. When you try and discuss what has just been preached, people look at you as if you are from Mars. An elder in a professing reformed church gave me a look that I am taking Christianity too seriously when he was trying to discuss what he watched at the cinema with me, to which I replied that we do not go to the cinemas because we are concerned that God's name is blasphemed. He did not seem concerned (I doubt if he ever thought about it) about the possibility that God's name will be used in vain. This is what worldliness does to a congregation. 

Kaj, your situation may be evidence of a wider problem at your fellowship. The question I will ask myself is how often are the doctrines of grace preached? Does the leadership of your fellowship encourage biblical separation (Separation from evil, the world and false teaching)? What about the lives of the congregation, both officers and members, is there any visible evidence that the same power that raised Christ from the dead operates in the lives of a majority of the congregation?


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Feb 2, 2015)

kodos said:


> Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If our employment of another keeps them from church (I have talked with some folks who tell me that they'd love to come to church sometime, but they have to work) then we are keeping them from hearing the gospel.



That is one reason why the magistrate must uphold the employee's right to a Sabbath day free from labour. And it also reminds me of the propriety of the magistrate enforcing church attendance as per the fourth commandment, which requires superiors in the commonwealth to ensure that all under their care keep the Sabbath holy.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Feb 2, 2015)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> > Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If our employment of another keeps them from church (I have talked with some folks who tell me that they'd love to come to church sometime, but they have to work) then we are keeping them from hearing the gospel.
> ...



Considering the direction we are heading, I would not count on any assistance from the magistrate. A better way to accomplish this would be for all professing Christians to keep the Sabbath themselves. Our economy works on the principle of supply and demand. If a significant number of people ceased to patronize businesses on Sunday, then these businesses would be much more likely to close down, or at least be more sympathetic to the requests of employees for the day off. In this sense, Sabbath keeping helps to fulfill the duties of the Great Commission by ensuring that more people will actually be able to hear the gospel being preached.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 2, 2015)

The fact we live under a wicked magistrate is ever more the reason to pray that God relieve us from His judgment and appoint a Godly ruler that would bow the knee to Christ and Kiss the Son so that the church of God would have a nursing mother and a foster father.


----------



## Free Christian (Feb 2, 2015)

Some very good points being made here by many.
Just in the last 2 weeks my family, my wife, myself, mother and sister, have been reading from the Exposition of the Confession of Faith by Robert Shaw on the Sabbath. Something struck me from the words we were reading about Gods Judgements on societies and not keeping His day.
I often hear people in general, in the media and on the street etc, comment on how bad things seem these days. They hold rallies and the likes to "end street violence" "end domestic abuse" "combat drugs in society" along with countless others. But I cant help but feel that all they do is in vain without a society returning to the Lords Day recognition and keeping of it. The same society/population that are against those evils happily trade on Sundays, hold huge sports games, markets, you name it, all on the Lords Day. Sadly and sickeningly enough one of our politicians just the other day headed a huge street march in support of Gays, on the Lords Day. They seem now to want a return to a blessed society with the benefits of living in one, in fact a Christian society from which the goodness they once knew existed and from which that goodness came, but without the central light of it, God. (they want the benefits of living in an illuminated society without a light source) I think its a no brainer that the further our society gets from God and the more His day is swept aside and trampled upon the worse it will get regardless of all the rallies and meetings held to stop the tide of violence and evil. Though I know I am probably not saying anything here everyone doesn't know already.


----------



## Free Christian (Feb 2, 2015)

aadebayo said:


> When you try and discuss what has just been preached, people look at you as if you are from Mars. An elder in a professing reformed church gave me a look that I am taking Christianity too seriously when he was trying to discuss what he watched at the cinema with me,


Hi Ademola. My mum and sister would be able to relate to that. They once went to a church and my mum asked the Minister his thoughts on natural disasters and could some be from Gods judgment on the nation or people, she thought yes but wanted his opinion. He replied that he did not know and had never thought about it. My sister asked a question on some passage in the Bible and was told "I have never read that part of the Bible before, ill have to look it up". He commented to them another time "your questions make my job difficult".


----------

