# Jews for Jesus



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 27, 2004)

Jews for Jesus is in the midst of a major evangelistic campaign across US cities and was recently the subject of a National Public Radio story (occasionally, I tune in to liberal news radio to learn what the opposition is saying). The story focused on the offense that their message causes to Jews who feel that one cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. I have no problem with the concept of Messianic Jews; however, I am curious as to what kind of gospel this group espouses - is it Reformed or Arminian? Does anyone know?


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## tcalbrecht (Sep 27, 2004)

[quote:83710f13df="VirginiaHuguenot"]Jews for Jesus is in the midst of a major evangelistic campaign across US cities and was recently the subject of a National Public Radio story (occasionally, I tune in to liberal news radio to learn what the opposition is saying). The story focused on the offense that their message causes to Jews who feel that one cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. I have no problem with the concept of Messianic Jews; however, I am curious as to what kind of gospel this group espouses - is it Reformed or Arminian? Does anyone know?[/quote:83710f13df]

I've interacted with MJs of various stripes for over 10 years. Given their presuppositions, I'd be surprised if they admitted to being in either camp for the simple reason that such distinctions are a "Greek" invention.

BTW, I do believe the Jews for Jesus and MJs (ala the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations) are two different things. J4J is an evangelistic outreach of "gentile" churches to Jewish people. MJs are their own "denomination", or set of "denominations".

I have no issue with a person being culturally Jewish and a Christian. If they wish to keep certain practices because of their background/heritage, that is fine. As an Italian-American on my mother's side I keep many Italian traditions as a sense of culture, some of which originally had religious connotations.

But I do have a problem with a person claiming to be religiously Jewish and a follower of Jesus Christ. This is the category where most MJs fall. They wish to perpetuate the old covenant practices because they believe they please God in going so. They admit they do not do it to "earn their salvation", but because God has prescribed certain things are eternally binding on Jews, dietary laws, circumcision, observance of OT holy days, etc. They wish to keep these practices as a religious dividing line between Jews and gentiles.

The problems with such an approach seem obvious to me, given the nature of the New Covenant and the church as catholic and apostolic. It seems also that most of their practices which they wish to import into their religion as not based strictly on the Bible, but come from years of rabbinic traditions that have crept into Judaism, e.g., men wearing heading coverings.


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## Me Died Blue (Sep 27, 2004)

I'm not sure whether most MJ's are Arminianistic in their soteriology or not, but I absolutely agree that trying to hold onto some Jewish customs with any intent of pleasing God--even in a minor sense--is a misunderstanding of Christ's fulfillment and the relationships between the various administrations of the Covenant of Grace.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 28, 2004)

Thanks, gentlemen. This is a helpful perspective. 

Especially to learn more about the distinction between J4J and MJ. Are both relatively recent in terms of church history or is there a historical movement along these lines? Where does Steve Schlissel and his Messianic congregation fit into this movement? Just wondering further...


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## Ianterrell (Sep 28, 2004)

Jews for Jesus began in the 70s. Messianich Jewish congregations I believe in the late 80s early 90s. Steve Schlissel is in no way related to either groups. He was formerly in the CRC I think, and now Messiah's Congregation is independent.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 19, 2004)

Further on this topic, I am just wondering what Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews practice with regard to Sabbath-keeping. Do they meet on the seventh day of the week or first?


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## LarryCook (May 15, 2005)

Usually Friday evening, some meet on Saturday.


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## Scott Bushey (May 15, 2005)

I wonder what they do with the idea that the NT church explicitly met on _the Lords Day_???


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 15, 2005)

From what I understand, Messianic Jews are dispensational out the wazoo. So, I doubt they're very "Reformed" in any sense of the word.


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## Puritanhead (May 15, 2005)

How many different Gospels are there anyway?


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## Scott (May 16, 2005)

"I wonder what they do with the idea that the NT church explicitly met on the Lords Day???"

Just guessing, but I expect they define "Lord's Day" as the Saturday Sabbath.


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## Texas Aggie (May 16, 2005)

I know several Christians who observe the Sabbath (7th Day) as well as the OT Holy Days prescribed by God (especially Passover). What is even more strange, they are not Seventh Day Adventists... they strongly believe in much of the reformed faith (with the exception of the "times" listed in the ceremonial law). 

They do not condemn the idea of the church meeting Sunday morning either (for they also attend regular church service). A very good buddy of mine insists that the ceremonial law has in fact changed as a result of Christ's atonement. But, he only believes the priesthood and animal sacrifices have been done away with... implying the times have not changed (Sabbath as well as OT Holy days such as Passover).

Speaking of Passover, he has a compelling argument against Easter. His family observes the Passover (I was even invited over once). We had a nice meal, had communion and a bible study concerning how Christ died according to the scriptures (the Gospel). I must admit I was somewhat impressed. Since then I have moved to San Antonio and have met other people who proclaim the same idea.

Has anyone heard of such a practice? I know this is a little off the subject; however, I think it somewhat fits with the topic of Christians observing OT law.


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## BobVigneault (May 16, 2005)

"I wonder what they do with the idea that the NT church explicitly met on the Lords Day???"

Scott, you know I can't let you get away with a new definition of explicit.

Explicit - expressly stated, leaving nothing merely implied; stated in detail.
(of knowledge, a notion, etc.) definite, clear.

Implicit - implied though not plainly expressed ; virtually contained.

Switch to the 'i' word and I'm in full agreement with you. Seventh day hugs and kisses!


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## BobVigneault (May 16, 2005)

I'm one of those weirdos (my word) Matt. I'm reformed with a small 'r'. I don't hold to any of the Jewish rituals or days but because the MUCH DEBATED seventh day sabbath is a creation ordinance I have long held to that conviction. Three big advantages are, I can go to the store and buy you some groceries on the Lord's day, fix you a meal after church on the Lord's Day and tell you who is winning the football game in real time. But on the sabbath (Saturday) please let me rest and enjoy fellowship, unless of course your ox falls in the ditch, then I'll be there for you.


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## Scott (May 16, 2005)

There are a variety of arguments for a Sunday Lord's Day. The strongest are precedent in the NT and in the secondary sources. I don't expect to convince Bob, so I won't make a defense. I will share that I have always found the theological and typological reasons appealing. The first concerns the creation week. Justin Martyr, who died about A. D. 160, says that the Christians



> "neither celebrated the Jewish festivals, nor observed their Sabbaths, nor practiced circumcision" (Dialogue with Trypho). In another place he says that they were "all accustomed to meet on the day which is denominated Sunday, for reading the Scriptures, prayer, exhortation and communion. The assemblies met on Sunday, because this is the first day on which God, having changed the darkness and the elements, created the world, and because Jesus our Lord on this day arose from the dead," etc.



There are others, such as the prominence of the eigth day in Old Testament typology.


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## Scott (May 16, 2005)

BTW, we have some gentile neighbors who are really into the messianic Jewish stuff. They observe the feasts and ceremonies, and the like. They are preoccupied with ethnic Jews and Israel (the nation) and plan to move there. He and his wife are moving to Israel. 

Some people from his group were talking to my pastor who is Jewish from his father's side. They treated him with an almost awe until during the conversation they found out his Jewishnewss came from his father's side, not his mother's. They believe that Jewishness descends from the mother's side. On finding out that his mother was gentile, he became an instant persona non grata. Verd weird. These people were gentiles too. 

They love to debate the proper date of the Sabbath.


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## BobVigneault (May 16, 2005)

"They love to debate the proper date of the Sabbath."

I don't, I just love the Sabbath.

I know what you mean though. I have some relatives who call themselves Evangelical Zionists. There are enamored with anything Jewish and are so intensely dispensational that they'd make Scofield sit up and take notes. Oy vey iz mir!!!!!


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## Scott (May 16, 2005)

Bob: Let me make clear that I am not lumping you into the description above. Not even close! The discussion just reminded me of my neighbors who are a bit unusual.


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## BobVigneault (May 16, 2005)

I knew you had left me unlumped Scott but thanks for making it clear. Furthermore, if you were MY ruling elder I would want YOU to be the one to take me aside and advise me to stop being a smart alleck. Blessings.


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## Consistent (May 28, 2005)

A couple of years ago I had a manager who was MJ, actually she was completely gentile but her and her family attended a MJ synagogue. Her congregation was very much hyper-Dispensational...wow...really bad. Over the year that I worked with her we discussed different theological issues, particularly God's dealings with national Israel. One MJ rabbi, who teaches in my area at St. Petersburg Theologial Seminary, actually believes and teaches that the midrash and other non-canonical jewish writings are inspired! 

This movement in my opinion is very cultic in how it works. They treat gentile Christians as if they are secondary citizens and inferior...."silly Gentiles, Torah is for Jews". The ironic thing about this movement is, at least in my area, that more Gentiles are a part of this movement than Jews! Actually, Jews find them repulsively offensive.

One of my elders said that it is dispensational movements like these that helped to gain Israel their own state in 1948. They believed that Israel needed to be a soverign nation and had to rebuild the temple in order for Christ to return...is he correct on this?

Another thing that I saw is that they attend EVERY jewish feast and ceremony,...some that I have never seen in the OT. These feast and ceremonies are to point to Christ, who they say they serve. Then why worship in the Shadows intead of the reality?

Consistent


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## ReformedWretch (May 28, 2005)

> One of my elders said that it is dispensational movements like these that helped to gain Israel their own state in 1948. They believed that Israel needed to be a soverign nation and had to rebuild the temple in order for Christ to return...is he correct on this?



I would like to know the answer to this as well!


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## bond-servant (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > One of my elders said that it is dispensational movements like these that helped to gain Israel their own state in 1948. They believed that Israel needed to be a soverign nation and had to rebuild the temple in order for Christ to return...is he correct on this?
> ...



My MIL is a Dispensational and she also believed that Israel had to again become a nation before Christ would come back. Came from the verse:

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


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## ReformedWretch (May 28, 2005)

Oh yes, my family believes that as I once did. I wonder though, did dispensational CHristians help bring about the Nation in 1948? Were they actually "involved".


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## larryjf (May 30, 2005)

From what i have seen, Jews For Jesus focus on evangelism. They are not a "church" per-say. They actually encourage converts to go to a local protestant church, there is no special Jews For Jesus church.

Messianic Jews are very Jewish oriented. They keep the Friday night/Saturday morning sabbath. They have their own "church" that they call a Messianic Synagogue. They focus on keeping their Jewish roots while professing Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. They believe in the Trinity. They seem to be more in the dispensational and charismatic camp.

It's interesting because the Messianic Jews have very lively worship with Jewish dancing, and modern music. Some of the music, like "My Jesus, my Savior" they change around to be "Yeshua, Meshiac" - So they definitely try to keep the Jewish flavor.

Their communion is a bit different too. A married couple gets up and takes communion representing the whole congregation. Then after worship, all can come to another room and partake of the rest of the loaf and juice.

I seem to be going on and on and on and on and....there i go again.


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## Consistent (May 31, 2005)

HP-

I am going to meet with my elder this week and ask him more on the involment, if any, on the establishing of the Israeli state...Ill let you know what he says.


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## calgal (Jun 13, 2005)

Um what do these folks do with Galatians?  I find MJ's and J4J's a bit annoying. There is a difference between being in touch with ones roots and the adopting the methods of the Judaizers that Paul fought so tenaciously in the 1st Century AD. I have the lineage but prefer to worship with fellow Christians (Gal 3:26-28)


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## turmeric (Jun 13, 2005)

My mom was involved with MJ's for a while. Their "synagogue" had a split when the very heresy Paul was addressing came in - insisting that Gentiles convert to Judaism, start keeping kosher (with the 2 sets of dishes) etc. When the arch-heretics left the lesser eroneous ones were small in number and are still limping along. Mom was into all things Jewish at that time (she did not convert however), and would probably still insist if I were to ask, that we will all speak Hebrew during the millennium as it is the original language and the one God prefers. All of this gives me the heebie-geebies and started making me seriously re-evaluate Dispensationalism, but the straw that broke the camel's back was the supposed re-institution of animal sacrifices during the millennium. When my Dispie pastor couldn't assure me that only the kookiest Dispensationalists believe this, that this is somewhat mainstream for them, I started moving away from it.


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## default (Jun 13, 2005)

There is now therefore no more Jew nor Gentile, as we have all been adopted into the Family Of God! 

With that said.... There are so many topics being disucssed in this one thread, Jew vs Christian (which ought not to be a division), the Sabbath, Law vs Grace as well as a few others. I've joined myself the last three years with a local Jewish Congregation to partake in their Passover Sedar. Yes! I do! And I've witnessed both the Jewish strengths and weaknesses, but don't we have them all? They still pray "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" which is NOT found in the New Testament. (NOw, mind you, this is only one congregation). They still pray and talk in the Hebrew language, but usually translate it for those of us who are not fluent in that, most I know is Shalom!... But every year the Pastor begins by welcoming those of us who are not of the Jewish decent, and makes known to everyone there is no more Jew and Gentile! Every year he has the Gospel not just mentioned, but the ENTIRE EVENING is based on Christ and Christ alone! For those of you who don't understand, when we partake of the evening, we remember what God did for the Nation Israel, but each thing DEPICTS what Christ did for us and that is tied in, and focused on! What surprised and grieved me is that a lot of congregations are taking the Lamb (the most important part of the meal) out, and replacing it, with what I don't recall, it started a few years ago. P raise God the congregation I attend that once a year has not and does not intend to change this aspect! 

What's more, it was mentioned above, is their music. I was going to say worship, but the sermon, the prayers are all a part of worship. It's a sight to behold. NOt only can they dance, and dance gracefully, but they do so with fervent desire to worship God alone. And what makes it so special is they do it as a family! I've joined in every time, quick to learn the steps and they are patient and gentle in helping those of us who don't know, to learn! 

For us, My friend Kathy and I, during the dinner (which is free talk, not part of the program) engage the members at our table into doctrinal discussions. I have befriended more than one from these dinners, and yes, they do desire the pure word, not corruption, they desire truth, not tradition! 

You know, perhaps we "gentiles " could be a bit more understanding to these our brethren! How will they learn, lest they be taught? I've often said and will say again here, I believe God has His people in ALL denominations, to spread the Word! The Truth! (not saying all in all denominations are saved, not at all!)

PS... The sabbath? That's Christ! Please see Hebrews 4!


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> For those of you who don't understand, when we partake of the evening, we remember what God did for the Nation Israel, but each thing DEPICTS what Christ did for us and that is tied in, and focused on! What surprised and grieved me is that a lot of congregations are taking the Lamb (the most important part of the meal) out, and replacing it, with what I don't recall, it started a few years ago. P raise God the congregation I attend that once a year has not and does not intend to change this aspect!



Are you speaking of a physical lamb at the meal?


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## default (Jun 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> 
> Are you speaking of a physical lamb at the meal?



YES, THEy are taking the physical lamb and replacing with another kind of meat.


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> ...



Why would any Christian want to participate in a ceremony that uses shadowy, old covenant images for Christ? 

Christ gave to His church a sensible way of remembering His sacrifice. It's called the Lord's Supper. Through the image of bread and wine we remember what He did for His church. "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

In this age, to continue to try to represent Christ in a slain lamb is an abomination.


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## default (Jun 13, 2005)

Tom,

Partaking of the LORDS Supper... notice, supper, a dinner, Christ gave the command AT the passover! and notice, it was ONLY then that He did command! And he said "As often as ye do this..." do what? partake. WE DO eat of the Lord's supper (the bread and wine) at the passover. It's NOT going back under law. But thank you for your concerns.

Why WOULDN'T someone participate in the way the Lord administered thereof?

Lori


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 13, 2005)

*is having a dejavu moment*

didn't we  a few months ago???


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Loriann_
> Tom,
> 
> Partaking of the LORDS Supper... notice, supper, a dinner, Christ gave the command AT the passover! and notice, it was ONLY then that He did command! And he said "As often as ye do this..." do what? partake. WE DO eat of the Lord's supper (the bread and wine) at the passover. It's NOT going back under law. But thank you for your concerns.
> ...



Well, obviously if you continue to use a dead animal as a picture, then you are living under the shadow of the old covenant. Bloody animal images were part and parcel with that covenant. This covenant passed away in favor of the new (Heb. 8:13). The blood image we recall today is pictured by the cup of wine. "Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" Jesus institutued His continuing sacrament of bread and wine, as testified by Paul in 1 Cor. 11. There is no further evidence that the apostolic church included animal sacrifices in the communion meal. In fact to do so is a denial of Christ's finish work. That's why unbelieving Jews continue to do it. But Christians do not.

On Matt. 26:26, Calvin wrote:


> "_And while they were eating, Jesus took bread. _I do not understand these words to mean that with the paschal supper was mixed this new and more excellent supper, but rather that an end was then put to the former banquet. This is still more clearly expressed by Luke, when he says that, Christ gave the cup after that he had supped; for it would have been absurd that one and the same mystery should be broken off by an interval of time. And therefore I have no doubt that, in immediate succession, after having distributed the bread, he added the cup; and what Luke relates particularly respecting the cup, I regard as including also the bread. While they were eating, therefore, Christ took bread, to invite them to partake of a new supper. The thanksgiving was a sort of preparation and transition to consider the mystery. Thus when the supper was ended, they tasted the sacred bread and wine; because Christ had previously aroused them from their indifference, that they might be all alive to so lofty a mystery. And, indeed, the nature of the case demands that this clear testimony of the spiritual life should be distinguished from the ancient shadow."



[Edited on 6-14-2005 by tcalbrecht]


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> *is having a dejavu moment*
> 
> didn't we  a few months ago???



New errors sometimes die harder than old ones.


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## calgal (Jun 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Loriann_
> ...



 Um this reminds me of Acts and Galatians (the Judaizers were heretics)  and Paul's response works for me. I found Judaism empty and dead (sort of like the PCUSA as a matter of fact.... ) from a very early age and what point is there to animating zombies (unless one is playing D&D)


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