# Close Down the Puritanboard?



## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

What do you think?


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 23, 2005)

With us soon to enter a Presbyterian church...I'm going to have lots to talk about. I'm still learning.


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> With us soon to enter a Presbyterian church...I'm going to have lots to talk about. I'm still learning.



With all due respect Colleen, should it be done here? I'm trying to understand the whole thing and want to do what Christ would want us to do. As I mentioned to matt earlier, the question is, is the board becoming so devisive because we have exhausted things to talk about that would be encouraging? 

I wrote this earlier today:

Have we reached the end? Seriously, is there anything left to be said here? Are we doing more damage than this thing is worth? Mass exoduses, banning, crushed and beaten brethren as a result of trying to prove you are correct. People are possibly destroyed over some of the things that have been done in the name of this board. I wonder if it is worth it. Granted, it has been a blessing, however it has as well brought grief to some. 

A friend told me that everyone needs to get a thicker skin. I don't know if I agree with that anymore. We need to be sensitive to each others feelings. Where has the tenderness, kindness and love gone? I can cry. Seriously.


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## Herald (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> What do you think?



A resounding "no"! This board allows me the privelege to interact with reformed minds. I am still searching in the Reformed area. While my pastor and I are both Calvinists, our church would not be classified as Reformed. For me, this board has been invaluable.

Bill

[Edited on 10-23-2005 by BaptistInCrisis]


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## Herald (Oct 23, 2005)

> Have we reached the end? Seriously, is there anything left to be said here? Are we doing more damage than this thing is worth? Mass exoduses, banning, crushed and beaten brethren as a result of trying to prove you are correct. People are possibly destroyed over some of the things that have been done in the name of this board. I wonder if it is worth it. Granted, it has been a blessing, however it has as well brought grief to some.



In my humble opinion, the negative experiences on this board are symptomatic of greater problems with certain individuals. To close down the board because of a few people would be tragic. There is no debate that the PB is NOT the church. Could we go on with our lives without the PB. Certainly. Are there those who should leave? Undoubtedly. But there is much good on this board. Not all of us attend Reformed churches. It is not that easy to say, "well go find one." I find myself becoming more and more Reformed as time passes. The PB has been invaluable to me. At the risk of being redundant from my previous post, the PB allows me to pick the brains of Reformed brethren. 

Maybe the right question to ask is, "How can we 'reform' the PB?" I would rather see that happen then to close it down.


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## street preacher (Oct 23, 2005)

You know, I can't get on most of the time anymore because I have to be out of town alot otherwise I would have. I have been hearing alot about what has been going on from Colleen and I can understand all of your feelings right now. Whether it is a church, a board like this, the work place, different ministries that are out there, or what ever, go through these times of difficulty. You guys cannot just give up on this and neither can any brother of sister out there. I challenge each and every one of you to stick it out in love. We are family. There isn't a whole lot out there to promote the reformed faith in any arena. This board has helped me and the wife tremendously and we love you all. I have found that sometimes God moves some on and brings new people in that really do need to talk these things out. This board has always had a turn over. Look at the list of people that are registered but do not post anymore, not because they were mad but circumstances probably didn't permit it like in my case. I really do think that because of the situation with long term ppl leaving it has magnified the situation. This to will pass. It does hurt but we need this board. We all need to remember that we are here and that this board is here by God's providence and we all need to remember that we are all directly connected to one another in Christ and that we need to remember not to let the devil have his way in a situation but to realize that we all need each other in this time of pain and to grow together to become a stronger board, a stronger pillar of truth on the internet. This is a world wide ministry and one of a kind at that! We are a world wide family on this board! Please, do not make a rash decision. Either way you go with a decision will have a big impact on this board. May God be with you and strengthen you as He already is.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 23, 2005)

I understand your feelings, Scott. I agree with Bill though that this board has been instumental in helping me bridge over to the Reformed faith and work out things that I struggled with coming from a partially-messianic Baptist background. You have also been there to warn me of things that I had never heard of before and challenged me to research.

Maybe there are a few things that we need to reform on the PB. Perhaps the administrators and moderators should talk and figure some of these things out. Maybe mention ahead of membership which things are not acceptable. Work on how we are going to handle disagreements and make it clear that attitudes aren't acceptable.

If you do feel the need to shut down the board to just prayer...then please keep the threads up for read only. Mayhaps we could also leave open the general discussions. I've noticed the lull in the board lately (other than one or two really active topics). I agree with my husband, that this board will go through it's ebbs and flows and turnovers. I believe that is just the way of most things. This has been the most active AND beneficially sound christian board I've ever run across.

Keeping ya'll in prayer on this decision.
Humbly,
Colleen


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Can we keep it, Daddy?



 That's how I feel.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

I can't believe this is even up for discussion.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 23, 2005)

Keep it as is. I think some need to chill out. Heard a great sermon today on The Unity of the Church which if not exactly applicable may be edifying for many here to listen to. I won't have webpages fixed before tomorrow as I wasn't given the order of worship in a file this week with the pastor being out of town, so this direct link is it for now.
Rev. Todd Ruddell, Assistant Pastor FPCR
The Unity of the Church (EPH 4:1-12)
http://www.fpcr.org/fpdb/Audiofiles/2005/A51023P.mp3


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## bond-servant (Oct 23, 2005)

Oh no....Keep it, please keep it.

Yes, there have been some rough times and threads as of late. But some of the most wonderful people reside here. It is in no way a substitute for our church or church fellowship, and there IS still a lot to talk about. 

Okay, there have been many doctrines beaten into the ground...baptism being one of them... probably submission too (guilty on that one) ..along with a host of others....but considering that mankind (on this side of eternity) will always have more to learn from the Bible ...He will have more questions, more thoughts as He studiously and prayerfully tries to understand...therefore, there should be new things to discuss. This is a great forum for it. And, certainly prayer needs are always changing.



Please don't close it. There's nothing like this out there. This is a special board with special people.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> A friend told me that everyone needs to get a thicker skin.



I believe your friend is correct. A hallmark of all the wishy washy Arminian feel good purpose driven churches I was a part of over the years had one thing in common, they never wanted to offend anyone. If someone attending didn't like something that was done or said there were meetings called to see what could be done about that.

Even if someone misapplied what was said, or misinterpreted it we still had to do something about it to make the person feel better. It was rather silly. I say if someone is so offended here that they can't get over it, let them leave. We are all smart enough and honest enough to spot a genuine trouble maker and I am certain and confident they would be dealt with.



> People are possibly destroyed over some of the things that have been done in the name of this board.



Then it is those people who place too much stalk in this board. That is no ones fault but there own. We should not be made to feel guilty over someone placing actual life feelings and emotions into an internet message board. I am sorry if that doesn's sound loving enough but I have some personal experience in this area and these conversations are beginning to sund like they are being held by people I lose respect for, not by sound men of the faith who I have come to admire and respect.



> the negative experiences on this board are symptomatic of greater problems with certain individuals.



*ABSOLUTELY*



> This has been the most active AND beneficially sound christian board I've ever run across.



YEP!



> I think some need to chill out.


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## bond-servant (Oct 23, 2005)

Also: Colleen and I were brainstorming what might be helpful, and thought maybe if there was a closed section of the pb where specifically where you can store a copy of all the hot topics/dead horses and when newcomers ask, we can direct them to that area rather than rehashing old debates?


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bond-servant_
> Also: Colleen and I were brainstorming what might be helpful, and thought maybe if there was a closed section of the pb where specifically where you can store a copy of all the hot topics/dead horses and when newcomers ask, we can direct them to that area rather than rehashing old debates?



Generally, that is what all the mods and admins do. The person is redirected via a provided link.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

I do not want to sound like I am asking for a position here guys, but if you ever want a mod who isn't afraid to "sic" someone let me know. I am not as knowledgable as many of you are, but if there is a poster who you deem a trouble maker and no one wants to be "mean" just let me know and I'll do it without hesitation.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 23, 2005)

I was thinking more of an archive. Then you can list the dead topic and put all like threads under it. ie, all EP threads go under EP. Then there is a whole Archive of EPs that is easier to search on ones own than being redirected.


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## Richard King (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I can't believe this is even up for discussion.




Adam took the words right out of my mouth.


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## ChristianasJourney (Oct 23, 2005)

My $.02

Personally, I don't think dissension and disagreement is necessarily the problem. As long as there are ideas there will be disagreement. However, it's our failure to consider what the other person is saying that leads to continued strife. Often the attitude "I'M RIGHT" is shouted without care or consideration for the other person's argument. 

We whip out theological quotes, like pistols in a gunfight, ready to battle with anyone who dissents from our opinion. Yet, how often do we resort to scripture to affirm our stand?...yet SCRIPTURE is our foundation, but sometimes we appear to rely more on a Confession or some dead puritan's writing.) We walk around trying to show others in no uncertain terms their "blind spot" while whacking them in the forehead with our own log.

It seems to me that rules are created to get rid of divisiveness, and immediately half the members are in violation of those rules. Tensions increase, the roster is culled, more rules are created--and where there are many rules, there are many lawbreakers. (What we need is a savior.) In the Bible this played out to be Pharisees and rebels. In real life, it will reach the point where only one point-of-view is expressed. And while One point-of-view may make for a pleasant board, with a nice Sunday school type of atmosphere where the chosen teacher may teach the students as he sees fit...it doesn't make for a fair and balanced opinion. 

Arguments do show both sides of the story, they cause people to think, people who are open may even change their minds, or they may become more firm in their beliefs. All of these are a good thing. 

I think the owners should decide the direction they want to take the board in. They own the land. (in my opinion the way it's going it will soon affirm a single viewpoint anyway, not through argument but through eradication.) Matt and Scott need to make the decision. If it's a prayer board fine, if it's a board that primarily reflects reformed PCA doctrine--it should be planned as such and not happen by default. However, it they want it to be what it used be, then in my opinion everyone needs to lighten up and remember that "pride" comes before destruction (including Matt and Scott--sorry, but as long as I was expressing my opinion...), and half the rules need to relaxed. 

 So there are my thoughts, prayerfully added.


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## bond-servant (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I was thinking more of an archive. Then you can list the dead topic and put all like threads under it. ie, all EP threads go under EP. Then there is a whole Archive of EPs that is easier to search on ones own than being redirected.



Thank you. You MUCH more clearly stated what I was trying to write! 

Can I vote again? Keep it open. Tweek what you feel needs to be tweeked, but keep it open. You can hire Adam to be the PB Bouncer!


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 23, 2005)

Some of the best minds on this board are men I disagree with in something or other. Generally, I just won't go back and forth with people I want to have fellowship with. I stay away (more or less) from Baptism threads, from Politics, t(T)heonomy, whatever. I state an opinion on something like EP, and try to move on.

We need to avoid causeless disputes, vain janglings (1 Tim. 1:4, 6), foolish and ignorant arguments (2 Tim. 2:23), unprofitable and useless contentions and strivings about the law (Titus 3:9). Getting involved in heated exchanges is a personal decision about what is worth going to the mat over. Even then we have to be gracious, a quality that is sometimes lacking. This is a maturity issue (as some have already pointed out) and a spiritual one, and much more so than an intellectual one, for one can be quite bright and not be either of the more important things. Many desire "to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say, nor the things they affirm" (1 Tim. 1:7). But even elders in the church can be sinful in these things, and moreso when they do not recognize their error and repent as publicly as their fault. Moderators should hold the reins both with discretion *and* as directed, according to the situation.

I would like to see the board stick around. I think it is still servicable. I would rather see it shut down because the owner/operators decided to quit (reasons specified or unspecified), and not because it had become an ugly and unruly place. I don't think we are at that point.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Seriously though, I am not worried about hurting someones feelings if it's the mission of this board being violated.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Ok, all of us in favor of it remaining open have spoken, most of us several times. Would it be too much to ask those who voted to close it or change it drastically to speak up for them selves?


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## Average Joey (Oct 23, 2005)

I ask,please keep it open.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Some of the best minds on this board are men I disagree with in something or other. Generally, I just won't go back and forth with people I want to have fellowship with. I stay away (more or less) from Baptism threads, from Politics, t(T)heonomy, whatever. I state an opinion on something like EP, and try to move on.
> 
> We need to avoid causeless disputes, vain janglings (1 Tim. 1:4, 6), foolish and ignorant arguments (2 Tim. 2:23), unprofitable and useless contentions and strivings about the law (Titus 3:9). Getting involved in heated exchanges is a personal decision about what is worth going to the mat over. Even then we have to be gracious, a quality that is sometimes lacking. This is a maturity issue (as some have already pointed out) and a spiritual one, and much more so than an intellectual one, for one can be quite bright and not be either of the more important things. Many desire "to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say, nor the things they affirm" (1 Tim. 1:7). But even elders in the church can be sinful in these things, and moreso when they do not recognize their error and repent as publicly as their fault. Moderators should hold the reins both with discretion *and* as directed, according to the situation.
> ...





> EPH 4: 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, F7 beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
> 
> *2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.* 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; *15 But speaking the truth in love,* may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


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## BrianBowman (Oct 23, 2005)

I love the fellowship and opportunities to be challenged and learn here on PB. Coming out of a combined 20 years of "charismania/dispyism" PB has really helped me sharpen my ever growing understanding and appreciation of the Reformed Faith. I've especially been helped in the areas of Ethics and Familial morality, mainly because many of you seem to have been blessed with solid backgrounds in this that reach deep into your childhoods and adolescent/young adult educational and social experiences.

I've also made some friends on this board that regularly EMAIL and some I may even meet this side of heaven. Finally, there's is a good chance that I'll enroll in Whitefield Seminary's distance program as a result of several interactions with folks on this board.

Former_evangelyfish_snatched_from_the_fire_of_not_loving_God_with_ALL_my_ MIND


Brian

P.S. Out of all the folks that God has used to humble me on PB, I admire Rev. Buchanan's honesty and intelligence the most!

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Now it's up to 5 people who want it shut down, but refuse to speak up. in my opinion that says it all right there about the so called "problems".

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by houseparent]


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## bond-servant (Oct 23, 2005)

If someone wants the board closed, why do they stay??


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## Herald (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I do not want to sound like I am asking for a position here guys, but if you ever want a mod who isn't afraid to "sic" someone let me know. I am not as knowledgable as many of you are, but if there is a poster who you deem a trouble maker and no one wants to be "mean" just let me know and I'll do it without hesitation.



Adam, now that is my personality style. Born and raised 10 miles west of Manhattan. New Yorker at heart.


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## Herald (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Now it's up to 5 people who want it shut down, but refuse to speak up. in my opinion that says it all right there about the so called "problems".
> 
> [Edited on 10-24-2005 by houseparent]


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## youthevang (Oct 23, 2005)

In my beginnings of being reformed, which was approximately eight months ago, this board has helped me out tremendously. I have read what others have commented on various topics. Those topics spring boarded me to search the Scriptures and to see what the church fathers had to say as well. I have read and learned about topics that I have not heard of before, and I have learned about what books to buy on certain subjects discussed here on the board. This board has helped me not only with understanding what Calvin, Zwingli, Luther and others were fighting for, but I have learned that the fight still goes on. I believe this is the heart of every person here.

Yes, there may have been disagreements every now and again, but this is the consequence of our fallen state, which should constantly remind us that grace abounds. This board is not our church nor should we view it as such. But this board is part of our fellowship with many brethren across the great divide.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



What's driving me nuts Bill is the fact that a few whiners (sorry if that's harsh) seem to be causing a ton of greif and some, or even a most of it is going on behind the scenes.

These people even refuse to bring it into the light when a thread like this would enable them to do so. Here is there chance to speak their peace but they hide behind their monitors whimpering for this place to be closed in order to make them feel better about their precious feelings being hurt in a baptism (or insert your topic here) debate. It's really rather sickening to me.

There are views that I am not even decided on, but one thing I loved about this place was the ability to get many different views that weren't heretical. I could then turn to scripture, prayer, and my local church home to help me take a stand.

The fact that a few over emotional people want to rob the rest of us from what we get from the PB makes me angry,and as Dr. Banner would say, "trust me, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> If a person is disgruntled with your church do you just ask them to leave? Or are you instead seeking to have the Sprit produce the fruit of LONGSUFFERING in your life as you work with them to help them bear their burdens



Pastor Way;

You know how I respect you. But my isue with that kind of thinking is so deep that I am not certain that I can even begin to lay it out here. 

It depends why the disgruntled person feels the way that they do. If they are upset that we have communion every week then I would not seek to comfort them by changing it. If they were unhappy with real wine being used with grape juice as well, again I believe they should seek to get over it.

Would I be rude to them? I would hope not. But, I would not seek to coddle them. If they stood against something our church believed to be the Gospel truth I would seek to explain our position as best as possible, invite them to remain but quietly disagree with the practice, but they would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that causing discension would not be tolerated.

If they were going around causing greif for members who were being fed and blessed by our church I would not only ask them to leave, I would demand it.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Moderate:

Original referenced post deleted. No longer necessary or germane.

[Edited on 10/24/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 23, 2005)

{Moderate}
OK. Let me moderate just a sec, and politely insist that some of the highly charged rhetoric be toned down. I don't think that the votes for doing away with the board are winning the day or persuading the webmaster right now. Its simply belligerent to berate someone for voting his opinion. If you don't agree with it, ... you don't agree with it! The reasons (if they were explained) might even be something you were forced to agree with, in spite of yourself! Wow. In any case, snap judgments could be part of why whomever they are don't feel the board is worthwhile.

So, no more name calling.

Love you all...


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

{MODERATED}

Deleted post. Unneedful. Keep on track. Just a simple vote and why.


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## Presbyrino (Oct 23, 2005)

My vote is "NO", don't shut down and keep the board as is. 

"Maybe" it would probably be helpful to refer new folks to archived threads on the hot topics : baptism, theonomy, EP, etc. 

For the admins, as hard as you try you won't be able to prevent folks from getting their feelings hurt. Perhaps, folks should be more careful as they enter into debates here on the PB. If folks are going to make statements, then they should be prepared, in some instances, to have them challenged. If this bothers you, then don't enter into hot-topic debates. As much as the admins try to monitor the board, folks should also take up the responsibility to monitor themselves as well. 

My


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 23, 2005)

I would second many of the thoughts and suggestions that have been given thus far, especially by Steve. Any beneficial group such as the Puritan Board, and even every church as well, is bound from its inception to go through difficult times. Right now is indeed one of those times at the board in many ways. But in one sense it is precisely because of that state that I believe it is important to press on, in order to get through it in a way that glorifies God and benefits people here both through the struggling process and in looking back later.

My pastor preached a sermon last Lord's Day from Joshua 7 about the result of Achan's sin at Ai, and the temporary defeat and pain it caused the whole people. But they persevered in the defeat, and God eventually brought them to victory. Though the Church is what is directly in reference in the passage, I believe it has something to teach every believer about any group, and what can temporarily happen to the whole as a result of the sin and misplaced intents and actions of a small amount. As has been pointed out, the spirit that can often take over some discussions here has currently brought that spirit to much of the board as a whole, but as has also been pointed out, that means we need to repent, reform and persevere, rather than give up.

Personally, the people I have met on this board and the advice I have received as a result have been invaluable to me in my journey to and in the Reformed faith. In fact, quite contrary to becoming a distraction from the local church's central importance to my spiritual life, it was because of connections I made on this board that I discovered any good Reformed churches at all. John Schultz connected me with my home church, and Fred Greco got me in-touch with the church I now attend whenever I go back from Cincinnati from time to time. I know I would not have the church foundation I currently have had it not been for my connections here, as well as my initial learning of the nature and importance of the Church.

And as has been pointed out in this thread, there will never stop being new people in the same boat many of us were in two years ago, not knowing of any Reformed churches to join or even what is important to look for in doing so. So let us continually persevere and indeed talk about areas that currently need repentance and reforming.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

PW, this section of your post makes it sound as if you voted to close.



> those of you who think that anyone who voted "Close it" should just leave really need an attitude check. Instead of being defensive you should be wondering what has been done to make people want the board to close! If a person is disgruntled with your church do you just ask them to leave? Or are you instead seeking to have the Sprit produce the fruit of LONGSUFFERING in your life as you work with them to help them bear their burdens.....like I said.....very telling.



If not then I am sorry but it reads that way.

Now as for this;



> There is a picture of some of the problem of late. When an opinion is offered, even if in a vote, if it is unacceptable to others or not fully justified to those who disagree then people immediately begin to condemn. This is not edifying nor is it a proper way to try to relate to those with whom you disagree.



I run into this in childcare all the time. People insist that to discipline in love means one must always be sweet and mushy. That somehow the person causing greif is to be dealt with in such a way that proves to him or her that they are cared about. 

You know what?

I agree with that 99% of the time. But there comes a time when we have to be wise enough to call a spade a spade and remove a person before they can damage others. The goal can still be restoration, but restoration when the offending member repents of his trouble making and agrees to return in humility and submission.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

> And as has been pointed out in this thread, there will never stop being new people in the same boat many of us were in two years ago, not knowing of any Reformed churches to join or even what is important to look for in doing so. So let us continually persevere and indeed talk about areas that currently need *repentance and reforming.*



Sound and wise.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> PW, this section of your post makes it sound as if you voted to close.
> 
> 
> ...



{MODERATE}

Adam, I very much appreciate your input, but keep on track. Let's allow for "yes" and "no" and leave it there. Just a simple post.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> 
> > And as has been pointed out in this thread, there will never stop being new people in the same boat many of us were in two years ago, not knowing of any Reformed churches to join or even what is important to look for in doing so. So let us continually persevere and indeed talk about areas that currently need *repentance and reforming.*
> ...


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



Ok, ok...calming down.


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## Average Joey (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by webmaster_
> ...



Two words "Rapture Ready".

Sorry couldn`t resist.:bigsmile:


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Oh man, that was completely loving, calm, and subdued compared to what those people over there drove me to.


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## Average Joey (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Oh man, that was completely loving, calm, and subdued compared to what those people over there drove me to.



I know,just teasing to bring a laugh or two out of this thread.


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## JohnV (Oct 23, 2005)

My personal opinion is that this Board is just around the corner from coming into it own. I can appreciate some of the sentiments; I can even appreciate that some think its time to prune the Board by making more stringent discussion rules in addition to the doctrinal rules. Maybe I'm one of the culprits: I have been seriously working on the ideas of certain threads, and I have felt perhaps too free to engage my thoughts. Though I ought to be free about differing opinion-wise, yet some things are sacrosanct to some people, things I don't mind contradicting. So some could feel like they are being attacked underhandedly. Its something we could all keep in mind in what we say on this Board. We should not make our particular perspective a mark of orthodoxy for others. 

So maybe we need referees too. I would think that the moderators are doing a good job of things, and that we don't need referees. What we need more is a plain sense of what ought to be on the block and what ought not to be. Not thicker skins, but less thick heads on secondary matters. I am applying this to myself as I think through this. 

What I see going on is that some of our ivory palaces are tumbling because of all the interaction that we've had. That was our goal. If we're achieving that, what is the reason to close it down? If some of the things that need tearing down are being torn down, then it has been to good purpose. But if we came here to tear down everyone else's ivory palace and leave our own intact, then our intention was wrong from the start. Putting things out for discussion can also include correction. Are we afraid of that instead of joyful about it? Is that the reason behind some of the want of Christian behavoiur? 

I came on this Board at a time when I was utterly despondent, being excluded from the life of the church for quite some time. This Board did not replace that need, but it did help me to find my footing. 

I think that we still have a great role to play. With all that's happening in our churches, and the fact that here we can hash things out in a manner that is unique, and which allows for greater depth of study and carefully made arguments, I think that we are just beginning to find our place in the world as a discussion Board.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

I want to issue an apaology to Pastor Way for getting overly worked up in this thread. I understand his issues and concerns. I hope he continues to post here and even debate from time to time. I honestly do. I learned much from his participation.


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## pastorway (Oct 23, 2005)

I really should not have said anything in this thread earlier and apologize for even opening my mouth. I have deleted my posts accordingly.

I do have one question, hopefully on topic, for Matt and Scott.

I do not know what prompted you to ask the question, but the answer I would think should not be found in a poll of members but in a prayerful meeting with those who oversee your ministry Matt. Is this board not under the direct oversight of those who oversee you? What do they say?

I think it should be a question for them and not for us. To ask us seems a bit _congregational._ (that was a joke, because as we all know, the PB is not and has never been a church). 



Phillip

[Edited on 10-24-05 by pastorway]


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## Herald (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> ...



Adam, we can only deal with the situations put before us. If a brother or sister on the PB has a specific problem, then we can isolate it and deal with it/them in love. We may never see eye to eye, but that is not a requisite for being a member of the PB. What does matter is how we deal with disagreements. What Matt and Scott need to see (and I am sure they do), is how the preponderance of the PB is blessed by the give and take type dialog. I can only imagine how many U2U's they must receive from folks who are offended at whatever landed in their Wheaties. 

We should deal with those who disagree with us in love. Perhaps we are the one who is wrong. If that is the case, then we should be willing to do the right thing and move on. But once in a while we run into someone who is a contrarian by nature. There is nothing...NOTHING that will sway them. I have learned (by the school of hard knocks) to just leave them to God and move on. No jabs. No parting salvo across the bow. I just bless them and leave them to the Lord. And then I move on. I will not be shackled , no...I will not. There are brothers and sisters whom I can bless and be blessed by. I also have a lot to learn. I recently posted on "theological relevance." I want my life to resemble my theology. The PB has helped with insight that I often lack. 

So what to do from here? Move forward with business as usual. If the mods and admins wish to address specific issues...so be it. But until then, let's continue the exchange of ideas and fellowship between brothers and sisters who are united in Christ.







[Edited on 10-24-2005 by BaptistInCrisis]


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> I do have one question, hopefully on topic, for Matt and Scott.
> 
> I do not know what prompted you to ask the question, but the answer I would think should not be found in a poll of members but in a prayerful meeting with those who oversee your ministry Matt. Is this board not under the direct oversight of those who oversee you? What do they say?
> ...






> To ask us seems a bit _congregational._ (that was a joke, because as we all know, the PB is not and has never been a church).





[Edited on 10-24-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## daveb (Oct 23, 2005)

I actually thought about whether the time was right for the PB to close earlier this week. There certainly are issues with the board (and with any board) and there are discussions that I've had my fill of and choose not to engage in. I did have a sense that the board had come "full term" exploring issues and having discussion on most every topic, but this is only from my perspective.

I may had read the major topics over the last few years but there are always new people joining. Even though I view certain topics like beating a dead horse there are others who are engaging them for the first time and eager to learn. I may think that rehashing an old topic is not worthwhile but I don't think that's shared by those participating in the thread.

Overall I think that the board is beneficial. Many know that I have no Reformed church of any sort to go to right now and know of no other Reformed Christians to discuss things with. The PB has been wonderful in providing me a place to learn from others. I look back to when I first joined and how much I was able to learn. The PB was and still is my favourite place on the web.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

> Even though I view certain topics like beating a dead horse there are others who are engaging them for the first time and eager to learn. I may think that rehashing an old topic is not worthwhile but I don't think that's shared by those participating in the thread.



Thank you!



> The PB was and still is my favourite place on the web.


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## tdowns (Oct 23, 2005)

*Keep it open for learning.*

Human beings are social animals, there are tons of articles and books and archives to read that cover every single thing ever written on this board, and most of it probably better than what is written here. And yes, I can try to find my pastor or someone to talk to in person about theology at any given moment of the day...not! I probably read more scripture here than my daily reading because it's quoted so much, I've learned of the confessions (and read them from quotes) here. (And then downloaded them to read from link here). The banter, discussion, rants, and propaganda put out on this board spurs me to read more from the sources, including the bible.....but......without this board, would I be interested in reading Calvin, would I want to read about covenant theology, would I care about baptism....no....And I probably wouldn't just go and read archives. It's fun to watch debates unfold, to discuss, to ask stupid questions, to say stupid things. Do we really think that all was pure and edited and quickly moderated when the ancients were hammering out stuff around a table over a beer. I do think moderators need to discern those new to the flock, point them to proper doctrine, encourage them to ask questions, but allow them to grow. Several times it seems to me that someone jumps in with both feet AND ARE WRONG in doctrine, only to be shot down so fast they may never return again to learn the truth. Tough balance to be sure, and I'm rambling from stream of consciousness here, but it would be a grave loss for many if you were to close this board.....or to so inhibit re-discussions of issues that it just becomes a library. People are social, they like to interact, allow those that want to discuss again instead of read old posts do so. And not all can handle heated discussion around a table in a bar over a beer, and not all can handle the board...so be it.

Not only that, I'll use the "Officer and a Gentlemen quote again...."I'VE GOT NO PLACE ELSE TO GO!"

I love you guys! Keep posting Pastor Way!

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by tdowns007]


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## BlackCalvinist (Oct 23, 2005)

I haven't voted yet. I will by the time I get to the end of this post. I pray my post is allowed to stand unedited. If you are thinking of editing after reading, please save a copy for me and PM it to me.

The major problem with the PB is that a lot of folks still act as though they're in the 'cage stage'. Yes, men like Spurgeon, Edwards and other spoke the truth passionately. Yet, these men were also known as great lovers of sinners - and even lovers of non-Calvinistic believers. That's a huge issue over here and a LOT of folks need a check-up from the neck-up on it.

Biblical love is a lot more patient than 'if you need me to sic anybody, just let me know'. We're dealing with BRETHREN, not folks in the temple turning the Lord's house into a house of merchandise! Put the whip away.

A lot of us need to GROW UP (Hebrews 6 grow up). As I recently read on a blog.... Christ did not die for the the RPW or EP. Yet there was an EP thread that ran pages upon pages with cut-and-paste arguments all over the place. I came on the board as a progressive dispensationalist and instead of feeling the love of Christ, I got 'Why are dispensationalists even allowed to post on this board' ? WHAT kind of 'love for the brethren' is that ?

Any 'Calvinism' that promotes these kind of disagreements, this type of attitude and simply passes it off to 'people need to develop thicker skin' is SELFISH, ARROGANT AND SINFUL. It is focused on 'pleasing self' rather than 'pleasing a brother' :


> 1We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. (Romans 15:1-2)



focused on being RIGHT rather than encouraging and edifying and focused more on SECONDARY ISSUES than primary ones. The tendency among some on this board (and to be honest, I saw it more on the-highway than on here) is to think that 'mature Christianity' looks like an OPC worship service. Sorry - the entire world is a lot broader than this and the body of Christ is a lot broader than this. Yes, there are 'reformed churches' (in Africa) that don't do things the way reformed churches in Scotland, England or the US do. Yes, there are some 'praise and worship songs' that are VERY Biblical and deserve to be sung right alongside some of the old reliable favorites because they communicate biblical truth. Yes, it's okay to actually FEEL JOY because of the God who saved you. It doesn't mean you have to shut your mind down, contrary to the false dichotomy constantly put forth by some former charismatics-turned-reformed.

Yes, there is a difference between being 'nice' and being 'good'. Love is not always 'harsh', but seeing as though the bulk of us have not interacted in person with folks, let's be real...... would you talk to people on the PB in person like you do on here ? Look in your heart and answer this question honestly. If you can't say 'yes' legitimately, you're a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

So yes, we wonderful reformed folk have our own 'sin' issues that run beyond basic biblical doctrine. Love without truth is worthless, but truth without love is just as worthless. Last year, my Pastor told me I needed to spend more time with PEOPLE and less time on the computer. There is something a lot more beneficial to interacting with people IN PERSON instead of exclusively via a message board. You _learn_ how to deal more properly with people and with those who disagree with you - and most importantly, if you're consistent, you'll learn how to _love_ a whole lot better.

All that said...

Keep the PB.  There is still much good here and perhaps the moderators and ownership can lead the way in showing others how to better treat their brothers and sisters in Christ who visit this board. From the standpoint of knowledge, there has been much learned here. And prayerfully, in the future, many of the 'issues' we have can be resolved if we spend more time with PEOPLE and less time on PB. 

Don't end it - mend it.

Here's a starting point:

A Kinder, Gentler Calvinism (you know....the article you skipped over in the revised 5 Points book by Steel, Thomas and Quinn, because you wanted to see what book recommendations they had so you could make your list)

and Razormouth's old article http://web.archive.org/web/20040212060052/http://www.razormouth.com/archives/00000084.htm - Why I Left Calvinism....well, not really, but I thought about it! (for all you cage-stagers ------- 2 years or less as Calvinists...better extend that to 3.5 years or less....)

While some of this was 'vent', I'm praying that it generates an equal amount of heat AND light. I don't speak as though I'm innocent on some of the points above - I'm just leaving my 'cage stage' and I became a Calvinist in 2000. Hopefully, the heat will burn away some of the dross of human pride and misdirected zeal and the light will show the areas where we SHOULD focus and grow.

This is why R.C. Sproul can invite MacArthur to speak.

It's also why MacArthur recently invited C.J. Mahaney to speak out of his pulpit. 

These are examples we can and should emulate, despite disagreeing on here. and this board can serve as a place to catch some 'internet Calvinists' who just found out about the doctrines of grace and now fight with ALL THEIR MIGHT against the dreaded Arminian boogie men all around them 

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by OS_X]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> Is this board not under the direct oversight of those who oversee you?



Phillip great question.

First it is under the Session's oversight of CCRPC. Then it is under the oversight of the Westminster Presbytery of RPCGA if CCRPC can't handle or needs help/counsel or is in doctrinal deviation from the Scriptures and 1647 WCF.

Its noted here:

"This Website is under the immediate oversight of Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church and the Westminster Presbytery of the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly."
cf.: http://www.puritanboard.com/Admins.htm

Also, the reason I made this poll was not for the (tongue in cheek) congregationalism of the board, but that there are many who support the board monetarily and we would not want to immediately overthrow them as well (if we were to close it down). The board is supported by donations (people pay for it) though I may take the brunt of "paying" for it (most proceedes come through extra donations from APM.)



[Edited on 10-24-2005 by webmaster]


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Kerry;

I just want to say that I don't think it's fair to cite a comment I made that I've apalogized for because I was overly "worked up". That being said I will say that I am not upset, my feelings aren't hurt, and I won't leave because of it.


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## BlackCalvinist (Oct 23, 2005)

If anyone's reading, I *did* edit and add some stuff to the end.


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## Michael Butterfield (Oct 23, 2005)

May I say this respectfully? I think many are taking themselves and this board far too seriously. It is, after all, the web. Now I would not argue that many have been helped here and many have developed some real friendship here, but this is not the place to establish anything that even approaches the communion of the saints that you find in Church. *I have voted to keep it going*, but I have no real "œreason" for voting that way other than I simply enjoy the interaction whether positive or negative. Closing the board would fundamentally change nothing in those who are always the "œargumentative" types. Quite frankly, while I have thought some things posted here bordered on the ridiculous and inane I cannot say that things have ever risen to the levels of seriousness indicated on this thread as it relates to those who are offended, angry, rude, or otherwise. Everyone picks and chooses their battles and if you happen to get into one that is particularly heavy then your skin had better be a little thicker. It is quite common on the web and in e-mail for people to wear their emotions on their sleeves and get offended at the inoffensive. You see as much digital ink has been spilled on the web the one thing many people have not understood about how poor this medium is, is that it has no voice. Consequently, what people will do is impute a voice to the post or email. The voice could be correct or it could be incorrect, however, if you do not recognize that dynamic then you are setting yourself up to be offended. This dynamic is, of course, only exacerbated because most of us have never heard the other person speaking in person, on the phone, or otherwise. These "œoffenses," then, are more inevitable than they would otherwise be. As I end this, the PB is not the church and it does not seem, to this weak mind, that there is anything about the PB that is fundamentally inimical to the church, but it would be a mistake to quash dissent as long as it fell within the bounds of orthodoxy and I do not just mean Reformed orthodoxy. Certainly, it is right to place certain restrictions on joining members in a type of membership covenant, which would only serve as a help to preventing aberrations to the stated purpose of the PB, but there is no way to stop all dissent proper and otherwise in this present context except by "œTHE BAN" (to use a little Amish lingo) or by shutting the whole thing down. So, what will it be? Keep it going and recognizing the practical outworking of a standard Reformed doctrine that begins the beloved TULIP or discipline the egregious and repeat offenders with THE BAN or discipline all participating members by shutting the whole thing down. Obviously, if it is a matter of finances or some other issue like time that is a different subject, but for the stated or presumed reasons I offer the above.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Here's the thing...

*MANY* of us did not know there were any serious issues going on. Maybe we were stupid? Maybe we were foolish or blind? But the truth is, we simply didn't know. I still wouldn't know had I not chosen to e-mail a member and ask them if they would please tell me what this was all about.

In case any of you don't know, much of this "issue" is over a private discussion where a statement was made and stood behind that shocked and frustrated the person it was made about, as well as some others.

To present this problem as if it's about a few debates here on the board is problematic in my opinion. As I said, I would still be in the dark if I had not sought to find an answer from someone.


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## BlackCalvinist (Oct 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Kerry;
> 
> I just want to say that I don't think it's fair to cite a comment I made that I've apalogized for because I was overly "worked up". That being said I will say that I am not upset, my feelings aren't hurt, and I won't leave because of it.



You're not ?
















Well, in that case, I have a few choice words for you, Adam!













I apologize if you feel I wrongly cited you. I wasn't trying to be unfair, just using it as an example (specifically since some 'agreed' with you there - and usually, that means there might be more folks who agree, but just ain't sayin' nothin'). Please forgive me if you feel slighted in the least.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

No biggie and others DO feel that way but they feel that way for the reason I posted above your last post.


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## turmeric (Oct 23, 2005)

Given that the vast majority of Christians in this country are still the products of Revivalism, we're going to keep getting newbies here for a while, people who are beginning to be attracted to Reform -but haven't made it all the way across. There needs to be a way to interact with these folks, just as people have been patient and interacted with us. Most of us come from an Evanjullyfich background, and we didn't change all by ourselves.

I don't think it's a good idea to keep sending people back to the old threads on "dead horse" topics because people learn by discussing, as many a college prof can tell us. The PB certainly isn't a church, I see it as more of a student lounge, an online "bull session" (no profanity intended). That's why I don't understand all the banning and revoking of privileges going on. Of course it's probable that the owners don't see this as a "student lounge" where anything goes.

As for the "thick skin" thing, what keeps me from discussing things is not that people will disagree with me, it's that they'll do it in a contentious, frankly fleshly way. Two years ago the mods had to close a contentious thread on...sanctification! I still  thinking about that one!

I apologize for this, I personally helped to draw attention to a poster who was still struggling with Dispensationalism - and shortly thereafter he was banned - because he wouldn't get over it in just a few posts. I still feel convicted about it. It's been a 3-year shift for me from Dispensationalism and Keswick spirituality (which I was never good at, BTW) to Reform - I think. We aren't giving people their 3 years.

BTW; I didn't vote to shut it down, so don't call me a whiner or I'll call you a...a...Superlapsarian!


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## Michael Butterfield (Oct 23, 2005)

Now there is a reason for thicker skin. :bigsmile:


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 23, 2005)

Hey, calling you a whiner is nothing! In my past I once made a whiners necklace. I stapled a peice of twine to the ends of a kleenex box. If you whined too much you had to wear it for the day. (Keep in mind this was YEARS ago when stuff like this was acceptable and I believed it worked.)


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 23, 2005)

{MODERATE}

Keep on track.


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## tdowns (Oct 24, 2005)

*Outreach or in house discussions?*

I think it's a good point about people not having time to learn about reformed thinking before being banned or scorned. But, maybe emails or u2u's are being sent, I don't know? It seems it comes down to whether or not this is intended to reach out to those in serious error.

If this is only about discussing theology that is within the tight framework, then let the banning begin and that's fine. 

But if it is a tool to draw the flock toward truth, to disciple? Then some strategies (which may already be in existence) should be in place. Like U2u's pointing out serious error. Gentle rebukes. Allowing one to post questions and be on board as long as they are not propagating their errant ideas. ETC.

I just think, if the truth is here, then the longer people stick around, the better.

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by tdowns007]


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## pastorway (Oct 24, 2005)

a side note on the banning issue - the owners, admins, and mods need to be encouraged to set, follow, and explain to the board the protocol for restricting privileges or banning.

Problems follow when people either do not know what is going on, do not know the procedure that is being used, or see the procedure being thrown out the window without due cause or without explanation.

When the rules are set and explained, *everybody* should have to follow them. 

Phillip


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## Robin (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> I really should not have said anything in this thread earlier and apologize for even opening my mouth. I have deleted my posts accordingly.
> 
> I do have one question, hopefully on topic, for Matt and Scott.
> ...



A very wise counsel......

Robin


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## Robin (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> I think it's a good point about people not having time to learn about reformed thinking before being banned or scorned. But, maybe emails or u2u's are being sent, I don't know? It seems it comes down to whether or not this is intended to reach out to those in serious error.
> 
> If this is only about discussing theology that is within the tight framework, then let the banning begin and that's fine.
> ...





Robin


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## dswatts (Oct 24, 2005)

Absolutely not! Close down the Puritan board?!?! May it never be! 


My 

Dwayne


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## SmokingFlax (Oct 24, 2005)

From a purely selfish vantage point ...keep it as it is. I still have SO MUCH to learn.

Also, about the only things that bug me about the PB are:

1) People who type whole pages of comments or notes without breaking them up into easy-to-read, small (two sentence or so) segments. Forget the paragraph structure -this is the internet not a book! Give our eyes a break!!!

2) Similar to above: The need of some to compulsively paste the entire thread to every other post thus overwhelming my sluggish ghetto computer!


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 24, 2005)

Uh no dont close the board down. Should we shut down churchs because fo trials and tribulations?? NO. Should we stop being christians because of trials and tribulations???NO. this is a board not a church and thus doesnt replace physical fellowship but for many like myself need this outlet to freely discuss reformed thinking with like minded brethren. Quiting would only make the job easier for satan. That would be one less area of the internet world he ouwldnt have to worry about because the people who most admire there brethren puritans who gave willing their own lives for the gospel of Christ Jesus !!! Gave up because of difficulties!!! 

Iam better for the Lord allowing a place like this to exist.

In Christ,
Blade


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## fredtgreco (Oct 24, 2005)

I am finally getting around to giving some of my thoughts on these matters. I hope that my (relatively) silence on the board the past week or so has not unduly concerned anyone. I have been very busy with other matters of work, school and visiting family that I (rightly) view as more important than the Puritanboard.

First, I would like to say that I don't think that the Puritanboard should be shut down. I think that it exists as a useful resource for many people learning about the Reformed faith. I have always believed (and I think consistently commented) that I believe the number of active _readers_ of the is much greater than the active _posters/writers_. The Puritanboard has almost 900 members. Even granting the number of "members" who probably haven't signed on in months (how many sites are you a "member" of only because you wanted to see something once or twice?) there are still a great many members on this Board that you never "see." I get occasional emails or U2Us from these "silent readers" and generally then tend to be new to the Reformed faith (although not always), here to read and learn about the basics of Reformed theology - the main things. Even this little "world" of our is much bigger than we think. It should say something that this thread has almost 1,000 views and only 45 (right now) votes.

Second, I would admit that for myself, and I would challenge many of the most frequent posters that we spend too much time on the board in a fashion to carry on "normal" theological debate. Many of us (I believe) get on and surf the web in between other things - cooking, classes, work, etc. That means that we do not, and _cannot_, carry on a "debate" with anything like the precision or care needed for fine line issues. I am often amazed - more at myself than anyone else - at how *fast* replies come on the most abstruse topics, and how heated they are (again, I speak here of myself). It is hard to believe that a great deal of listening is being done, let alone thinking. I wonder how many of us would continue in a normal conversation if every 2 minutes or so, the other person said, "Oh yeah? Here, read these 15 paragraphs." "Now read these 20 quotes I have cut and pasted."

Does that mean that we should not use supporting authority? No! There is nothing wrong (indeed much is right) with standing on the shoulders of giants. But I wonder if we do it so much (and so quickly) that it causes passions to rise.

Third, I think we take the Board too seriously. I agree wholeheartedly with Bruce and Mike Butterfield here. I believe we get offended far too quickly at what is said, and that should stop. I would personally suggest that the next time someone feels that way they should contact the person involved OUTSIDE of the THREAD. Use email. Use U2Us. Keep it low-key. Keep it restrained.

Fourth, I too have had my frustrations with the Board. That might seem counter-intuitive, because I am a Super Administrator. I have invested a great deal of time in the board, having completely reinstalled it on several occasions, converted it to Phpbb, converted it back to XMB, been with umpteen web hosts, etc. I am the only Administrator now outside of the owners/founders (Matt & Scott). So why would I be frustrated?

Plain and simple, I think it is because while all the while I have harped that the Board is not a church (and it isn't) there is a sense in which I act differently. Not that it keeps me from church, mind you - I'm more ecclesiastically involved than probably anyone here, with a membership in one PCA church, service in that Presbytery, associate membership in another PCA church, and regular preaching in a third church that involves me in a second Presbytery. But that I have come, more and more, as I have labored _within the Church_ to serve and love God's people by God's grace. At the risk of sounding sappy, my normal role in the church is to work with and explain the Bible to those who don't understand it, and with whom others don't have a lot of time to spend. I have a special passion then for our "silent readers." 

So much of my discussion, especially of late as I have been overwhelmed with work and time demands, has been to make sure that in many cases a counterpoint is heard, not because I am interested in the topic. In fact the opposite is generally true - I have been posting lately in topics that I would never discuss at church and find of little to no interest at all. Many times I view the topic as an almost complete waste of my time. If this sounds harsh, then so be it, but it is the truth. Sometimes that has worked out to God's glory, other times to my sin. Man proposes but God disposes, or so the proverb goes.

Why all the vetting here? Because as I have studied my own interaction on the Board, I think it has given me some thoughts about the board in general. I think we need to listen to (and practice) what Bruce said. We need to be involved in building up, and where *we* (or I) cannot build up, we should simply walk away. In a church, I would not have that luxury - because elders don't walk away. But here, I can. I don't watch over anyone's soul here. I am here to help, and be as pastoral as I can, but I am not committed to addressing every issue.

So for me, and I hope for you, what it comes down to is talking and thinking about important matters and dealing charitably with others. If we are honest with overselves, it is harder to be charitable the further we get off the main things and page. Does that mean we should all only talk about absolute core issues? NO! But it means we are more likely to schism and cause harm. If we ask ourselves how many denominations were formed and how many breaks occurred over monergism, or inerrency on the one hand, and how many over headcoverings, eschatology or other tertiary (even quadriary!) matters on the other hand, I think we have our answer. 

The Board is what we make it, and frankly, it has not been a place I have enjoyed reading lately. This is not because of Matt, Scott or me, or anyone else. It is not because of "attitudes." I think it is because I have been discussing things for two years, and have shied away from revisiting main issues that come up again and again because I've "already addressed them." But that is not the point. We learn (and teach) through repetition. It bothers me when the last time people had concerns, Matt tried to do something about it and started a dozen or so good threads about good and important issues and little interest was generated. And yet at the same time in the past month there have been at least 20 EP threads, and dozens more in the past months that revolve around the right/obligation to drink alcohol.

To my "silent reader" friends, I have to say that I have been given a good dose of my own (misplaced) self-importance. I'm going to try and practice what I preach, and be helpful and spend my time where it is warranted. I hope that you will not see my "silence" on certain issues as weakness or agreement. If so, I can live with that. But I am going to try and avoid posting simply as "preventative maintenance." You'll not see another post by me on any exclusive psalmody thread. There will be others.

So I say KEEP the board OPEN. But do something about it. Ask good questions. Think about important things. Be charitable. Assume the best. All that good stuff.

May God richly bless you all as you study His Word, and serve His people.

[Edited on 10/24/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## BobVigneault (Oct 24, 2005)

It's all been said, but because of the importance of the question I'll add my couple of thoughts. Those who are angry enough about the discussions and debates here that they would leave have exagerated the importance of the board. This is the internet, it's not a church or a denomination. This the the realm of ideas, good ideas, great ideas and the gathering of people who seek true truth. No one is going to be burned at the stake here.

On the other hand many don't understand the real importance of a board like this. This isn't the 'I am His, and He is mine and doesn't make you feel good' kind of community. If you can't learn here, if you can't hold your own in the arena of debate then you will not be an effective defender of the faith anywhere.

For example, do you call yourself a calvinist. I was eager to wear that title and then I visited David Clouds website. Man, he shredded my calvinistic apoligetic. You can call yourself anything you want but if you can't back up your conviction from scripture you are an empty shirt. If you can't take a punch in your personal convictions then you are destined to double-mindedness and doubt.

Iron will never be sharpened by using a mink glove.

The PB offers the freedom to compete on what ever level of depth you feel you are ready for. It will urge you on or encourage you to wait until you are ready to take your next stand. I usually write light hearted things because they are safe but I learn so much from the deeper and sometimes pointed debates that take place. I am always surprised to see how much deeper the rabbit hole goes that I had ever imagined. 

I have met so many pastors over the years and my favorites are those who have strong convictions and can defend them from the scriptures. I may disagree with them 180 degrees but what joy it is to open and wrestle from the scriptures with someone who loves the Word as much as I do. Give me that 1 in a 1000 good shepherd who will stand in the gap with the Word of God exalted high rather than those 999 people pleasers any day.


Keep the board the way it is!


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## heartoflesh (Oct 24, 2005)

Maybe we should require a special password for the theological/debate sections?


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## bond-servant (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> Maybe we should require a special password for the theological/debate sections?



Good thought...I thought about that too, but I don't think that would work well because *every* thread has the potential to turn into a debate.. even the seemingly 'harmless' ones. Each time it turned to a debate the mods would have to move it. So the question becomes, "where is the line between discussion and friendly debate?"


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## gwine (Oct 24, 2005)

Thank you, Fred. A breath of fresh air in the swamp.

I, too, would vote to keep the PB, but changing the focus and the attitudes would be a welcome benefit. I have seen people in the distant past disappear due to what I felt were the harsh and sarcastic remarks made by others, and I even questioned (not long after I joined) why I was even here. To learn, for sure, but my beliefs will most likely not be changed through human coercion.

Perhaps Bob (maxdetail) is right - if you don't like a thread then don't read it. But how will I ever learn to refute wrongs if all I ever do is read just one side of the issue? And so, like a radio station, I keep reading, hoping the next song (issue) will be better than the last one. Humans are like that - random (providential) positive reinforcement keeps us more focused.

It has been a ride, but I will stay and continue to learn.


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## Michael Butterfield (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> Maybe we should require a special password for the theological/debate sections?



That sounds like a bad idea and rather draconian to me.


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## gwine (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Michael Butterfield_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> ...





Its already bad enough that 1984 has visited us so many times during this and other recent threads.


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## heartoflesh (Oct 24, 2005)

Perhaps a basic exam that needs to be passed to get the password. Basic theology, Debate Ethics, etc.

Of course, I mention this tongue in cheek.

Despite all its shortcomings, the benefit of this board is that there really is a relative unity of belief. Venture on to your average "Christian Messageboard" and you will be encounter never-ending debates with Arminians and Open-Theists.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 24, 2005)

I voted to keep the forum. But if the energy spent on the board is taking away from local responsibilities then some things need to be reevaluated. I have been in leadership roles and know that there are continual criticisms being leveled toward leaders. This does drain some people. The moment that Scott, Matt, and moderators are being drained by criticism and responsibility to the board I wonder if their local congregational responsibilities are being dragged down. This is not beneficial that they spend time deflecting and waisting energy away from their local responsibilities.

I admit that I have benefitted greatly here and consider myself to have been an extension of this ministry. It may not be a church or local congregation but it definitely is a ministry of teaching and fellowship. I do not wish that we become a hinderance for Scott, Matt, or any of the moderators. We have no right to weigh them down and take from their local congregations that which they will already owe to the bodies they serve in.

If they find it needful to step down from this responsibility because the weight of it is taking from their home life and church life we ought to be able to be gracious in helping them see this. If it isn't weighing them down let's keep the party going.


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## Ivan (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Richard King_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...


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## Augusta (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> It's all been said, but because of the importance of the question I'll add my couple of thoughts. Those who are angry enough about the discussions and debates here that they would leave have exaggerated the importance of the board. This is the Internet, it's not a church or a denomination. This the the realm of ideas, good ideas, great ideas and the gathering of people who seek true truth. No one is going to be burned at the stake here.
> 
> On the other hand many don't understand the real importance of a board like this. This isn't the 'I am His, and He is mine and doesn't make you feel good' kind of community. If you can't learn here, if you can't hold your own in the arena of debate then you will not be an effective defender of the faith anywhere.
> ...





I have learned so much here. Reading and learning has helped me to have answers to the questions that people ask me. My whole sphere of relationships prior to attending the OPC consisted of pentecostal/arminian/Church of Christ people. 

We stick out like sore thumbs now and when I am questioned I have an answer. I think my answers would not have come so easily without the knowledge that I have gained here. 

Just learning the nomenclature of the orthodox/reformed church has been invaluable because it is totally different from my old church. I understand my pastor now!

Don't shut it down.


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## Swampguy (Oct 24, 2005)

Don't even consider closing this board. I learn alot here and would like to contribute more but I still getting the hang of this reformed thing. So, what if there are a few immature members who call names and make disparing remarks. Thats life and you ignore them and move on. Just my opinion, Tim


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## Myshkin (Oct 24, 2005)

I do not consider myself to be a significant person/member on the PB, but I appreciate the public opportunity to be heard as if my opinion really does count in some way. But I do submit this as opinion and not with an attitude of "good, now I can be heard and can influence others to my views". Take my opinion for whatever it is worth, and only as a furtherance of what has already been said.

So far I agree with what several have stated (Fred, JohnV, Robin, Randy, Phillip, Bruce, and Meg). 

Ultimately if this board is distracting the owners from their callings in the face to face callings God has laid upon them, then it should be shut down as a matter of providence and circumstance. We should all agree as to what is more important here, and admit the obvious that afterall, this is _their_ board.

I think part of the problem has been a false dilemma from the beginning of the recent back and forth. There are those who side with the "thick skinned' argument and those who side with the "never offend me" argument. I believe both are wrong, and to side with either extreme is to reveal more about yourself than it does the person you side against. When some accuse others of being too "thin- skinned" (or similar assumptions), it is possible that in those cases the accuser himself is too thin-hearted and is reading too much into the person's complaint. Not all complaints are registered with a heart of hostility. And those who hear the complaints need to recognize that. You never know when you could be missing a legitimate "Nathan" coming to you. Some people seem to think they are above criticism, whether it is because of position or because of ones's older age. Just because feminism is so strong in our day and prevalent, let us not forget that the movement does have its reasons for reacting the way it does, and that many men find comfort in being one of thsoe types that the feminists have overreacted against. Others think they are above criticism simply because God has not providentially shown them that they are not as important as they think they are and do not know as mucht as they think they do. This is true for the old and the young. Pride is not a respecter of age.

In other words, it is possible that the accuser and the offender both have thin skin. The offended may take everything personally, while the offender may take his correction personally. Some times an offense is really an offense. And sometimes a criticism is a way of reconciliation and peace for and with the offender.

Some complain that people don't speak up; while others chastise publicly those who do. With this, people are getting mixed messages, and take the wise route in just keeping quiet, perhaps hoping that those who are taking offense to another being offended will notice that they are proving the offended's point, and are being hypocritical by being so offended that someone was offended! There is pride on both sides.

Things that may help would be:
1. If those who wanted to debate a topic, would make it clear from the beginning of the thread that they wanted debate and not discussion, and if so then those allowed in the debate would be restricted so as to keep threads on pace and topic.

2. Otherwise the thread should be seen as a discussion, because afterall this is what the PB advertises itself to be, "a board where Christ can be discussed". Aside from the fact that Christ is discussed very little, shoved aside for the finer points _within_ reformed evangelical orthodoxy(it is not enough for us that Christ divides, we must follow his "example" and divide over lesser issues), there is little chance for discussion due to all the interruptions, unnecessary comments, and challenges. As another has said, learning comes from discussion. When discussion is thwarted (and discussion is the purpose of the board in the first place), a person I think has a legitimate right to be frustrated and upset. This is why I have phased out more and more and have pondered leaving. Discusssion just seems impossible sometimes, so I have thought I could spend my time better elsewhere. I am sure others can concur and do not register this as a personal problem, but simply that this is the way things are, no hard feelings, move on.

3. Learn the fine art of distinction. We need to learn the difference between debate and discussion, and the difference between truth that divides by its very nature and our nature that likes to be divisive. Discussion is for sharpening, with give and take and should be open to learning even if not open to change. Debate is by its nature a competition to see who can prove who is right and wrong, and who has the best technique at doing so. I think we can see the difference in roundtable discussions and debates that theologians and universities often host for their students. If we join this PB or a thread to prove somebody wrong or to correct them, perhaps the best way would be to u2u them in private or ask them to debate. And then check ourselves as to why we feel the need to prove others wrong all the time. And a discussion should not involve cut and paste as much as it does. This is a discussion board primarily, and not a billboard. Obviously one could go find these quotes or ask for them if he needed them and was researching them. But otherwise the person wouldn't be on the board in the first place. It is time consuming and fiancially straining to always buy the next book or read the full version online (this does not mean study should be simple and quick). It is like playing chess vs. a human or computer. The computer may be stronger and have better information, but you will be severely lacking if you do not hone your skills and knowledge against real flesh and blood. Perhaps it is a fear that this real interaction might change us, or we may be found to have a mistake in our thinking afterall. A wise man once told me that if you are confident in your beliefs you will not be afraid to expose it to scrutiny, because you know it will hold up. Perhaps we fail to discuss because we doubt our ability or our convictions.

4. Stop the rhetoric towards those we disagree with. Obviously if we disagree with someone that means we think they are wrong. That does not mean we need to retort with "youre wrong!", "youre unfaithful!", "will worshipper!", etc. Let God the Holy Spirit teach them that in their conscience. Let us just expound what we belive and why we belive it without the subtle personal attacks. If we cannot give a full response that builds up and clarifies, then we should avoid response. While some certainly may be offended too easily, others are rightly trying to point out that it isn't always another person's disagreement that hurts, but rather the _way_ in which it is said. Big difference. We need to be more sensitive to people's providence/circumstances before we mouth of what is right and wrong. You never know where people are at in life, and our words have the huge potential for destruction of those who struggle due to ignorance, confusion, pain and the like. Truth is hard to take sometimes, but it is not for us to make it harder than it already is.

5. Curb the narrowness that is creeping in. Although there is not one thing I disagree with in Berkhof's sytematic or the reformed confessions (for the most part), I sometimes have a hard time feeling as if I am truly reformed on the PB. Much more important issues to be discussed should be law/gospel, just./sanct., Christ's person and work, etc. This is ultimately what divides us from the reprobate. I fear however the possibility though that some who are so divisive over their pet issues might fall on the wrong side of the just mentioned essentials. This is not a call for liberalism and anti-confessionalism. But rather the opposite. Confessionalism is a boundary not a comprehensive absolute. While liberals are those who deny a confessions truth, ultra-conservatives tend to use the confessions as a springboard to speculate and add to the confession. We should hold no less than the confessions, but no more than them either (dogmatically or divisively). In our legit desire to not allow the everpresent threat of liberalism creeping in, let us make sure we know what "theological liberalism" actually is in historical context, and not overreact to the word "liberal" in general by swinging towards a narrowness that might be labeled "theological Donatism". All christians can fall of either side of the horse; it isn't just the liberals who are prone to these sins.

To sum up, we should all look at ourselves first before we accuse others of offending us, and before we accuse those offended of being thin skinned. If I have done wrong to anyone, please contact me. 

I chose "not" to close this board down, because I find it helpful as an _aid_ to my studies (not the _source_ of my studies), an encouragement through the prayer forum, and I have met a few people I hope to meet in person someday, and hopefully I have encouraged others when they needed it.


Thank you to Matt and Scott for providing this board and to all the administrators and moderators who try to maintain it. Your work does not go unnoticed and is appreciated.


Coram Deo





[Edited on 10-24-2005 by RAS]


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## fredtgreco (Oct 24, 2005)

I am thankful for the participation here in thise thread.

If I might ask - there are 10 people (as of 3pm Central) who have vote to close the board and 5 who voted to make it into a prayer board (essentially to close it as it is).

I would ask that you confidentially send me an EMAIL, not a U2U, explaining to me briefly your reasons. I am not trying to "find you all out," nor am I interested in providing a mere opportunity for venting your spleen. I am truly interested, as one who has had frustrations, and yet loves the Board and many on it. In your "complaint" might be some helpful comments. It is also possible that it would provide an opportunity for me to point out something to you that could be helpful and edifying.

So please send me an email at my board address (fredtgreco at gmail dot com) - just click the email button or put the email in normal format - and I will promise to read your thoughts, reply and keep them as private as you desire.

Thanks,


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 24, 2005)

Sounds like a good idea, Fred. Then they can exchange ideas and possibly some legitimate concerns without feeling scapegoated. Perhaps we can glean some ideas from this.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> I am finally getting around to giving some of my thoughts on these matters. I hope that my (relatively) silence on the board the past week or so has not unduly concerned anyone. I have been very busy with other matters of work, school and visiting family that I (rightly) view as more important than the Puritanboard.
> 
> First, I would like to say that I don't think that the Puritanboard should be shut down. I think that it exists as a useful resource for many people learning about the Reformed faith. I have always believed (and I think consistently commented) that I believe the number of active _readers_ of the is much greater than the active _posters/writers_. The Puritanboard has almost 900 members. Even granting the number of "members" who probably haven't signed on in months (how many sites are you a "member" of only because you wanted to see something once or twice?) there are still a great many members on this Board that you never "see." I get occasional emails or U2Us from these "silent readers" and generally then tend to be new to the Reformed faith (although not always), here to read and learn about the basics of Reformed theology - the main things. Even this little "world" of our is much bigger than we think. It should say something that this thread has almost 1,000 views and only 45 (right now) votes.
> ...



 This says it better than I could. 

And Fred, I think you're right on about the number of viewers vs. posters. I used to view PB occasionally before I even registered as a member.


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## hpedlar (Oct 24, 2005)

I have been reading this board for about 2 weeks, during which time I have seen many discussions on some esoteric and finer points of reformed doctrine. I am amazed how much time and energy seem to be spent on these issues. Yet some of the more "pracitcal" issues are hardly replied to at all. I would like to respectfully ask a few questions: Does all the time spent debating issues like EP (just a current example) really edify us? Is it iron sharpening iron, or is it us trying to convince people of our own positions. I have been (until our current residence) in very intellectual church environments, much like this board, and I have to say that it can be very wearying. My 2 weeks on this board have been wearying in the same way. My pastor's wife recently reminded me we are obligated to redeem the time God has given us. Are we redeeming our time while on this board? I know that reading endless debate has not been wise use of my time. I am sure others are getting much-needed help honing their views, but as a woman and as a mom to young children, I was looking for something else. I will be spending much less time here as a result. I do think the questions you are all asking about the value of this forum are good. Blessings to you all as you work it out.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 24, 2005)

Keep the board. 

I think it's most helpful for those who are investigating the Reformed faith or are struggling with certain issues. Several here have testified to being helped in finding a church, etc. But we also need to keep things in perspective and hopefully the recent discussions will be helpful in that regard, and I hope we will all be more mindful of using our time wisely and in the importance of being involved in a local church. 

I've had the same problem with other groups/boards where you see the same arguments offered over and over again, seemingly ad nauseum, becoming very tendentious. But there are always new people coming to the board for whom the discussion may be new. You don't have to read every thread. 

I think listing everyone's post count may in some cases be counterproductive, since some (including myself at times, I'll admit) seem to make posts just so our post count will go up.


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## JohnV (Oct 24, 2005)

May I suggest something? What about a forum in which we can discuss and analyze the dynamic of a discussion board? It seems to me that some may benefit from something like that. 

This is not a normal discussion venue, because there is so much that can be done that normal conversation does not allow, or that takes a great deal too much time when talking person to person. It can be narrowed to one or two threads, it can be as wide as the whole array of discussions, all in the wink of an eye or click of the mouse. There can be discussions we have no interest in; there can discussions we have a great deal of interest in; and many in between. We have a host of resources available at a click of the mouse. 

We can erase and edit certain parts of what we say before we click the "Post Reply"button, something we only wish we could do in our everyday conversations, so that we wouldn't have to apologize so much for those unintened and unguarded slips. What gets printed here, and appears on your screen, is a lot more impactful because of it, and so can be taken more seriously as intended and guarded slips or slurs. 

There is so much about this venue that makes it different, calling for disciplines that we may not be used to.

[edit]
I should add that this venue also makes a great place, more than any other, to ask ourselves why we are getting upset over certain things. I find that I get upset because I am being stricken exactly where I should get stricken, and I'm bucking it. When I settle down again, I find that instead of being angry I ought to be thankful. 

[Edited on 10-24-2005 by JohnV]


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## pastorway (Oct 24, 2005)

Fred has made an excellent point about those who read the board but do not participate. I want to expand on that if I can.

I will start by admitting that I did vote to close the board, but if I could change my vote I would. However, there is not an option for how I feel about the PB. At the time I voted, close was the closest choice to what I think needs to happen.

I really do not want to close it. I do think though that it needs a cooling off period and it needs to be _reformed_ a bit. The board is valuable as a resource for getting massive amounts of information in short time. It is valuable for discussion and even for debate when that debate is engaged in by people who act, think, and talk like Christians. 

In saying we need a cooling off period though I really think that the owners need to decide the purpose(s) for this board's existence. We have no clear direction or vision other than that we are here to discuss reformed theology. And therein lies part of the problem, because to be blunt, there is disagreement even among the owners, admins, and mods as to what it means to be "reformed." So if we are answering questions and helping people discover truths about reformed theology then we need to come to a consensus as to what it means to be reformed, since we are a "reformed discussion group." 

The truth is that there are areas of disagreement between people who are all equally reformed! We tend to act like a disagreement at all with (insert theologians name here) is to prove oneself NOT really reformed! Even the so called "divines" were not unified on many points and that is precisely why the confession leaves so much territory uncovered!

Are Baptists reformed/reforming? Are Calvinistic charismatics reformed/reforming? Are Anglicans, Lutherans, Non-denoms reformed/reforming? You see, the definitions have become so narrow that the majority view (or at least the LOUDEST view) on the board appears to be that only Presbyterians (and even then only certain groups within the Presbyterian world) are really and truly _reformed_.

It is true that the confessions we hold to in order to particpate here disagree at points. But the issues of discussion of late have often been so narrow that we are even arguing over what the writers of the confessions meant. It is no longer about interpreting Scripture, but about interpreting an interpretation of Scripture! And whoever knows the mind of the divines wins the argument. (roll eyes)

I am not asking for ecumenism. But since the theology of the board's owners has narrowed significantly over the last year, and since that theology is prevelant now on _A Puritan's Mind_ too, there is an overflow where people on the outside looking in are believing that the theology of Matt and Scott is _the theology_ of The Puritan Board. When I was an admin, I was asked almost on a weekly basis if I agreed with new things posted on A Puritan's Mind or why I supported the PB since the prevailing views that are being _heard_ by many who "listen" but would never post or even join the board is a message of (as has been said to me many times) "unless you agree with Matt McMahon then you cannot claim the title reformed."

I would suggest that if the Purtian Board continues, and I am sure that it will and that it can be useful if it does, then the owners need to be clear about what the purpose(s) and direction of the board will be, who is to be included and excluded in the discussions and debates, and that the board leadership work to keep a balance of views instead of a monopoly view on key issues of debate.

This is not at present the "Presbyterian Board." But it seems that that is exactly what it is becoming. When people who are not Presbyterian, or who are not considered to be "really reformed" by others, voice their views and even work to back them up from Scripture they are either shouted down, attacked, ignored, locked out, kicked out, buried by cut and paste jobs, or told to go read a massive amount of books and previous threads. 

There are much fewer non-Presbyterians participating than there was a year ago. Why is it so lopsided? If we really want to discuss these things then we need to be a bit more inclusive when it comes to who is allowed to speak to these topics. If we are going to debate then we need to be sure that all sides to an argument (within the reformed community) are considered and given an opportunity to be stated!

One final note, it is so true that one HUGE downfall on the forums has been that when people disagree with someone they attack them personally. "Well if that is what you believe then your worship is an abomination to God", etc. There is a difference between debating ideas and judging, and we are told explicitly in the Scripture that we are not to judge the servant of another. We can disagree. We can debate. But we must not judge!

My 
Phillip


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## LawrenceU (Oct 24, 2005)

Well said, Fred and Phillip. I really have nothing to add except that I'd hate to see the board close, but it must be reformed. More later. Gott run.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 24, 2005)

To Phil. 

I don't believe being credo unqualifies me from being reformed. I hold to the five sola's which were the beginning of the reformation and the most important elements of it. Many others would agree with me concerning this point. Well, maybe I agree with them. I don't believe I am schismatic either. I try to promote unity more than most of the Presbyterians. But according to some I am schismatic because I am credo in my conviction. Well, I believe that Reformed Baptist Ministers are as much ordained for ministry as a Presbyterian also. Non of us stands on our own. We all have a tie that binds.


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## Archlute (Oct 24, 2005)

The board has been a great encouragement to me, having come from churches where doctrinal discussion was supressed in order to retain the unbiblically supportable status quo within a mega-church setting. There are certainly things that we should find more worrisome than sinful outbursts of the flesh in conversation (which should be gently rebuked and corrected, by all means); one of those is the corruption of the Truth. The more heterodox writings that I must read for critique in my studies, and the more subtle the error that tries to gain a foothold in the church, the more I realize that theological error is truly damning, and that not only for oneself, but also for the upcoming generations in the Body of Christ. Why else do you think that Paul told Timothy that in taking heed to himself and to the doctrine that he would save both himself and his hearers (1 Tim. 4: 16)?

I just had a conversation with an old friend from that former church this weekend, and I continued to hear about the teaching that is slowly destroying families and causing the more discerning among them to leave the church. Much of the problem is found in the corrupted doctrine that comes into that church from the seminary that I left to attend WSC. That seminary provides many of the "ministers" and "counselors" to that body. Some of their new hires had been classmates with me, classmates who I would not allow to teach VBS, mush less hold an ordained position. Much of the reason that such corruption has occurred in that seminary is due to nobody speaking out about the doctrinal defection among the faculty. I would prefer false teachers to cry and lose their life's career than to see the bride of Christ corrupted by their worldliness and tolerance. Gentleness among true brothers? Yes. Tolerance for error, even among brothers? Be very careful.

BTW, for those of you thinking about attending a serious seminary to prepare for the Ministry of the Word, get used to it. Much of the arguments on this board don't hold a candle to what you'll occassionally receive from professors and fellow students in doctrinal debates, both in and outside of class; nor will it get any easier on the floor of presbytery. Nobody cares a whit about your feelings there, if they see that you're in error, they want to see if you're going to become a wolf in sheep's clothing to the church.

So while I can sympathize with those who have been unecessarily trodden upon (I've been there too, outside of this forum), thinking of shutting down the board is a concession to faintheartedness. I do, however, like JohnV's idea of a discussion forum for evaluation of the board's direction; a step in the right direction.


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## Rich Barcellos (Oct 24, 2005)

If we vote to close it down, does that mean we should exit the board if it does not?

PS: I voted to keep it, in case you are wondering.


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## alwaysreforming (Oct 24, 2005)

The only possible reason I could see for closing the Board is if its causing the owners too much work, too much distraction, and too much grief to offset it benefits.

It seems that the majority opinion is clear: keep the Board open.

The fact that debates get out of hand, that feelings get hurt, that topics get too narrow, etc. are not big enough reasons to cancel the huge advantages this Board offers. They are reasons to be sorrowful, but not to close the Board.

I enjoy the fellowship here, I learn a lot, I am GREATLY more aware of just how ignorant and unlearned I am, and am more humbled because of my participation here.

This is where I first discovered my current church, because one of the members who posted here drew me to it. 

One suggestion is that perhaps we could ease up on the banning and the constant worrying that someone is going to "introduce error" and "lead people astray". Sure, if someone is simply argumentative, then that is counterproductive. But if someone holds to a certain view and does their best to back it up with Scripture, then we don't need to be as "narrow" as perhaps our history has been. Let the dialogue continue; we don't mind seeing a well-reasoned argumentation given from the opposing side. I miss several of the people who have been banned, and I thought they contributed a lot to the Board.

There was a girl in our "Bible study" who one night handed everyone this "written prophetic word" and said it was from God and she "proved" it be backing it up with a "miracle" (she couldn't talk <supposedly> and talked that night to prove it had God's blessing). I went home and read it over and found it to be severly lacking. At any rate, I thought the whole group was going to be thrown into a bad state and that error would quickly overtake us all and the group would be ruined. What happened was that after a week went by, no one even mentioned the supposed "prophecy", the girl never showed back up, and everything has been smooth sailing. The moral of the story is: sometimes opposition to error lends more publicity than the error itself could earn on its own, and if we can learn to let certain things slide, time will show who really is "from among us."

<disclaimer> the above is not a hard and fast rule how I think error should be dealt with, its only to point out that we don't ALWAYS have to jump to fix a problem; a lot of them go away by themselves.




I love the PB; if the owners can accommodate us, then lets forge ahead!


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## matt01 (Oct 25, 2005)

I voted to keep it open.


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## Herald (Oct 25, 2005)

You know what the real kicker is? Those who voted to close the PB, had to log onto the board to read the thread If they really wanted it closed, maybe they should just individually resign...quiet and peaceably.


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## gwine (Oct 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> You know what the real kicker is? Those who voted to close the PB, had to log onto the board to read the thread If they really wanted it closed, maybe they should just individually resign...quiet and peaceably.



Maybe the key word is 'really'. I am no psychologist but perhaps those that voted in favor of closing are crying for help in a lost world, and the PB, at some level, meets one of their needs in an imperfect manner.

As I said earlier, the PB is like a radio station - some of us keep listening (reading), hoping the next song (thread) will be better than the last one, and when it isn't we continue to listen (read) and say to ourselves 'if the next one is not good I'm turning it off.' But we keep coming back because we know in our hearts that there is some good.

I hope this thread will help the PB to get better.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 26, 2005)

We will not be closing the board. 

More later.


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