# Questions Regarding Presbyterianism



## Abeard (Mar 24, 2017)

I have been talking to someone who is interested in joining a reformed Presbyterian Church but he still has few things he is wrestling with. Here is a quote of the questions he has..

"I struggle with:

1) Is a congregation a church in any sense other than those assembling together. 

2) If the final court of appeal is a Synod or council or preabytery as in Presbyterianism or the congregation as in congregationalism. ( they didn't deny the use of council's and synods just their binding power). I guess ..Who have the keys of kingdom been given too? Exgetically it seems to me that they just were given to apostles as apostles, elders, and believers.

3) Also in Presbyterian polity, how are the keys to be used. I believe after reading a little bit, the idea that merely elders have the key is not necessarily the historic position. Some Presbyterians and Dutch divines felt tell it to the church meant tell it to the actual church and if they don't listen then the elders can turn the key. In that sense the assembly holds the key with elders."

Would anyone be able to shed any light on these questions or direct me to helpful resources? He has read Bannerman and Witherow.





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## TylerRay (Mar 24, 2017)

From the Westminster Form of Presbyterial Church Government:


> The scripture doth hold forth, that many particular congregations may be under one presbyterial government.
> 
> This proposition is proved by instances:
> 
> ...

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Ed Walsh (Mar 25, 2017)

Abeard said:


> 1) Is a congregation a church in any sense other than those assembling together.



Greetings,

I'm sure it's just me, but I don't understand this question... Can someone help me out here?

Reactions: Like 1


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## TylerRay (Mar 25, 2017)

Ed Walsh said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I'm sure it's just me, but I don't understand this question... Can someone help me out here?



You know, I actually skimmed that question too quickly. I thought he was asking if anything other than a particularized congregation could be called a _church_. That was actually my primary reason for quoting the Form of Government.

I'm actually not sure what he's asking, either.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 25, 2017)

I took it to mean, is a presbytery when it meets a church, a synod, etc.


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## Abeard (Mar 25, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I took it to mean, is a presbytery when it meets a church, a synod, etc.


Yes I believe that's what he's getting at. It would lead to a question of why ministers are members of the presbytery and not the congregation.

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## TylerRay (Mar 25, 2017)

Okay, then I wasn't too far off. Notice that the Form of Government states, "The church of Jerusalem consisted of more congregations than one." This implies that a Presbytery, or any church court, may properly be called a church.

That's why Presbyterians call their denominations churches, like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, or the Free Church of Scotland, as opposed to groups with a congregational government, like the Southern Baptist Convention, or the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America.


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## Abeard (Mar 25, 2017)

Would "Just Divinum" by John Dewitt be a good resource to pass along?

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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 25, 2017)

de Witt's work is historical on the Assembly; better would be the book it tips the hat to in the title, _Jus Divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici _by the London Provincial Assembly. The 1995 Naphtali Press edition edited by David Hall is out of print but several editions are online. The 19th century one would be preferable if you cannot find a used copy of the 1995; also David has a ebook version at Amazon but he used his files before I worked with them so I have no idea what the text is like. However, Bannerman's work _The Church of Christ _(the one was it Banner that redid recently in one large volume?) would be just as good and would cover worship as well.


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## Edward (Mar 25, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I took it to mean, is a presbytery when it meets a church, a synod, etc.



My guess was visible vs. invisible church.


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## jwithnell (Mar 26, 2017)

1. Try reversing the question: people don't hang out and form a congregation. Rather, God is the actor. He carefully arranges us as living stones. On a local, visible level that means a distinguishable group that can be enumerated. The constituant members bring unique strengths that make each assembly unique. On a universal level, the church is a group of people who Jesus redeems. That assembly may not be immediately known to man.
2. The final appeal is to God Himself. Christ is the head of the church. On a practical level, that means the courts of the church starting with an elder, the session, presbytery then general assembly. But we cannot lose sight that we appeal to Christ's glory and that the courts' authority rests in God's word.

3. Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God . The church's authority rests in its rightful understanding of the kingdom of God as given in His scriptures which provide the hope of the gospel, what man is to believe concerning God, and what duties God requires of man. When the church faithfully administers the means of grace, its number is expanded and cared for. When it seeks to protect the enumerated (at any level) it does so to Christ's glory and in His authority. When it protects the members from false teaching and false teachers, from those who give false testimony, from the contentious, and from the unrepentent who continue in ruinous lives, then it handles the keys with care.


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## MW (Mar 26, 2017)

Abeard said:


> 1) Is a congregation a church in any sense other than those assembling together.



A congregation is a church in the fullest sense in which a congregation can be a church. The church meeting together has every power it needs to be able to do what it is called to do in its capacity as a congregation. But it should be obvious that the church meeting in one place is limited in what it can do, and that the unity and fellowship of the church in the ministry of the gospel extends beyond what one congregation can accomplish. Once we acknowledge there is a wider commission that is conducted on the basis of fraternity, co-operation, and parity, it should follow that the powers of the church extend beyond the congregation.



Abeard said:


> Who have the keys of kingdom been given too? Exgetically it seems to me that they just were given to apostles as apostles, elders, and believers.



The power of the keys was given to the apostles as ministers who preached the Word and administered the sacraments, and as elders with the power of oversight to administer discipline as an assembly. They ordained men accordingly; and once the men were ordained they would act in assembly to ordain men to these offices. The keys could not be given to every believer without rendering the keys useless. They serve the purpose of admitting people as believers into the visible church and its privileges.



Abeard said:


> 3) Also in Presbyterian polity, how are the keys to be used. I believe after reading a little bit, the idea that merely elders have the key is not necessarily the historic position. Some Presbyterians and Dutch divines felt tell it to the church meant tell it to the actual church and if they don't listen then the elders can turn the key. In that sense the assembly holds the key with elders."



"Tell it to the church" refers to the church in its capacity to govern, which means it concerns the government of the church. The idea that the assembly holds the key is Congregational, not Presbyterian. The Presbyterian church holds to the New Testament principle that "government" is a distinct gift with special qualifications. There are teachers and taught, governors and governed, not in a civil and lordly but in a spiritual and ministerial way under the sole Headship of Jesus Christ.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Abeard (Mar 29, 2017)

Thank you for the responses! I passed on this information and will let you know if there are any other questions.

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