# Ammillenialism and the Mark of the Beast.



## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

Revelations 20 describes the beginning of the Gospel Era where Satan is BOUND by a mighty Angel a 1000 yrs FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS.. This 1000 yrs symbolizes the reign of Jesus Christ on the earth from the time of His Resurrection and ascension and the spread of the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. I believe we are in the "SHORT SEASON" of Satan having been LOOSED and are now experiencing his satanic chaos in the world.. To me this is exceedingly obvious. Satan was bound in order for the nations to be evangelized and become Christian. By nations becoming Christian I mean their leaders, constitutions and monarchies taking on Biblical Christianity and it's principles, laws and statutes as their foundation for their governments, societies and churches. This is also exceedingly obvious to me that this happened during the course of the last 2000 years of the reign of Christ. Of course not every member of those nations may be Christian but that is not what the text says. It says "the nations ( Gk ethnos). Also the Holy Roman Empire does not count for the Christianizing of the Nations as it persecuted to death most true Christians. Celtic and Ancient Christianity besides many other Christian groups were alive and well during the Dark Ages ( .....rumble of the Revisionists I hear)

During Satan's short season of being loosed ( prob started as early as 1850 with the Age of Enlightenment) he will go out to DECEIVE the NATIONS once more! This I observe is EXCEEDINGLY OBVIOUS! The NATIONS are being EXCEEDINGLY DECEIVED. Wow how blind can one be not to see that! Christians who are bemoaning our status and looking to the latest book, sermon or leader to point the way should look to the scriptures for clarity as well to the current state of affairs which is absolutely ghastly! When Satan during this short season goes out to gather the enemies of God to come up on the breadth of the earth ( Rev 20"7-9) and surround the Camp of the Saints, Fire shall come down from heaven from God and shall destroy them! Jesus Christ will then return with the host of heaven and the sound of the trumpet and the voice of the archangel and we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye ( new bodies) and shall be caught up to the Lord, The Christian dead will be raised too with new bodies to be with the Lord. The heavens shall be rolled back like a scroll and the earth shall be burnt up with fire ( 2 Peter 3) and a new heaven and a new earth created and the judgment will begin of all the dead. The righteous shall go into eternal life and the unsaved into the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels, hell, the grave and death. The New Jerusalem, our dwelling place forever descends upon the New Earth. There shall be no more sun or moon or sea and God and the Lamb will be the the LIGHT of this new earth. Death and tears and sad memories will be gone forever. So when you see these things we now see happening ie. Satans loosing LOOK UP dear
Christian for your REDEMPTION draws near!



I posted the above post a while back not realising there was a specific place to discuss this subject. Just to add further to this I firmly believe the current worldwide Genetically altering medical intervention so called a 'vaccine' appears to be displaying all the characteristics of the 'Mark of the Beast'. In traditional Amill frameworks this mark is relegated to a past event in history ( something to do with a pope and famine ect somewhere ect). However this has never fully satisfied me. The Jab is being mandated here in Australia to a severe degree. Hundreds of thousands are out of work ( including tens of thousands doctors, dentists, nurses and paramedics, teachers ect due to their refusal to take an untested experimental jab with no safety data. Now the boosters are being mandated, and the Australian government has 7 boosters lined up for every citizen apparently already purchased. Talk is of getting a booster every 3 months. The hospitals are full of vaccine injured victims and the death rate has gone up 25% in 10 months. Myocarditis ,Pericarditis and heart attacks have sky-rocketed in young males. I realise this is a HOT TOPIC. I wonder how much censorship exists within Christian circles with freedom to discuss these incredibly traumatising and world changing events in relation to biblical prophecy. As this situation develops with now the talk being our bank accounts will not be able to be accessed if we aren't vaxxed, medical care is being restricted, centrelink pensions cancelled, patients with Covid being offered euthanasia and even doctors being given the power to decide for the patient regarding euthanasia things are looking darker and darker each day. Now they want our children vaxxed starting with 5 to.11 yr olds and then newborn to 4. 12 to 18 yr olds started back in August /September. I am firmly convinced there's no turning back as the New World Order comes surging in. We have all been watching its gradual implementation for decades have we not? Should we be surprised? So yes, here's a hot topic as part of the discussion. I'm fully aware many are vaxxed and I am not condemning these folks. I'm definitely not condemning them to hell. I'm just raising the question. Quite often things iike prophecy fulfilling itself doesn't fit into our neat little boxes we construct. Well God bless you all folks vaxxed and unvaxxed.

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## jwithnell (Dec 29, 2021)

The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."

Now to *moderate:*
If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2021)

Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2021)

The weakness in amill that always kept me from it was the obvious fact that Satan is deceiving the nations right now. You can't have Rev 20 recap the events in Rev. 12-14 w/o having a formal contradiction on Satan's being bound. Following Kline and Heiser, I see the "being bound" referring to the final assault on Mt Zion.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

As I see it Rev 20:1 would refer to Satan being bound by Christ at the cross. Christ destroyed the works of the devil and took captivity captive giving gifts unto men. He won the victory over sin and death. Though Satan is still active, Christ has all authority and power and Satan is BOUND from DECEIVING THE NATIONS during the Gospel Millennium. AD 30 to possibly 1850 or 1920s or even 1960's? A small season compared to 2000 years could be 150 years! . This means despite persecution the Gospel spreads all over the earth. When he is LOOSED Satan goes out to DECEIVE THE NATIONS once more!.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.


As a true Ammillenialist/ Historicist I would think one would have to recognise the Pope of Rome/Papacy as the man of sin. He's been deceiving the world for a long time already.


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## Eyedoc84 (Dec 29, 2021)

I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> As a true Ammillenialist/ Historicist I would think one would have to recognise the Pope of Rome/Papacy as the man of sin. He's been deceiving the world for a long time already.



There are some difficulties in that claim. Jesus reveals a cluster of conditions that must happen before his return (Matt. 24:27, 30). If this cluster happens in proximity to the Lord’s return, then both partial preterism and historicism are ruled out. Historicism is ruled out because the birthing metaphor suggests proximity to that generation.

If the abomination of desolation was Titus's entering the Temple, as many historicists and preterists claim, then that should have started the Great Tribulation (however we gloss that). And since the Tribulation is cut short by the Lord's appearing, that means we are experiencing persecution today because of Titus's actions in 70 AD.


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## Phil D. (Dec 29, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> Just to add further to this I firmly believe the current worldwide Genetically altering medical intervention so called a 'vaccine' appears to be displaying all the characteristics of the 'Mark of the Beast'


Well, if that's the case then hundreds of millions of Christians have unwittingly accepted the mark of the beast - which is a theological absurdity and entirely unscriptural proposition.

Also, I'm not an admin, but it would be good if you would observe the proper signature requirements for the board...

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## Vernon (Dec 29, 2021)

Cyprian of Carthage (mid 3rd-century) also believed the end was near, and would be concurrent with the return of Jesus. He was not pre-millennial, as there had not as yet been enough time pass since Jesus was yet in his earthly ministry for such a perspective in time to have developed.

Cyprian was not alone. Belief that Jesus would return soon was prevalent — and I would say for good reason, considering our limited human perspective. I myself would probably have believed as well in an imminent return.

Cyprian and many other Christians of his day believed in an immediate return for many reasons. The main reason was persecution. Other bishops, believers, and fellow-confessors were subject to abuse, and often extreme persecution. It might mean prison, ostracization, confiscation of goods, death, or banishment to copper mines to be worked to death, to confess faith in Christ.

Additionally, belief in an imminent return was spurred by reasons extraneous to confession. There were continual wars, and rumors of wars. There was economic depression. There were plagues, some that decimated up to a third of certain populated areas. I might mention that Christians were often blamed for certain problems because their refusal to worship the gods brought on what was believed to be retaliation by the gods.

In short, those who insist that Jesus must be returning soon because of their interpretation of current events would do well to consider that today’s conditions are less severe (overall) than they have been in the past, especially, but not limited to the era of Cyprian.

I believe in a possible return of our Lord at any minute. It is part of my hope that is an anchor of the soul. I look forward to his return, I long for it. Should that great day not occur for an additional two thousand years, however, I will love and serve him still, with the same fervor.

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

jwithnell said:


> The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."
> 
> Now to *moderate:*
> If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.


The Lord tells us Acts 1:


BayouHuguenot said:


> Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.


I believe what the majority of the Reformers taught concerning the 'man of sin and Antichrist ' in that it is the Pope of Rome and the Papacy. Futurism (Jesuit- Francis Ribera 1585 ), and Preterism (Jesuit- Luis De Alcazar 1620 ) have done their jobs well in eliminating what the Reformers taught.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> The Lord tells us Acts 1:
> 
> I believe what the majority of the Reformers taught concerning the 'man of sin and Antichrist ' in that it is the Pope of Rome and the Papacy. Futurism (Jesuit- Francis Ribera 1585 ), and Preterism (Jesuit- Luis De Alcazar 1620 ) have done their jobs well in eliminating what the Reformers taught.



That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.

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## Andrew35 (Dec 29, 2021)

Phil D. said:


> Well, if that's the case then hundreds of millions of Christians have unwittingly accepted the mark of the beast - which is a theological absurdity and entirely unscriptural proposition.


Agreed.

And what about if they've vaxed their kids who didn't have any choice? "Sorry, buddy. You're a covenant child, but you've been unwillingly recruited to Satan's team. Nothing to do for it but call on the rocks and all that."


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The weakness in amill that always kept me from it was the obvious fact that Satan is deceiving the nations right now. You can't have Rev 20 recap the events in Rev. 12-14 w/o having a formal contradiction on Satan's being bound. Following Kline and Heiser, I see the "being bound" referring to the final assault on Mt Zion.


I see that as the strength of Ammillenialism. Looking back to our social and religious literature and history of even the 1950s or 60's shows the incredible changes in our society from a predominantly Christian influenced society to a secular society. Just looking at Census figures show us that. Again Revelations is not a Chronological timeline per se. Rev 12 shows the beginning of the Christian Era. Rev 13 the rise of the papacy ect. Rev 20 is a complete overview from the beginning of the Christian era until the end when God destroys his enemies (with fire from heaven!) who are surrounding the people of God, the Resurrection ( one and only physical resurrection ) , and the Day of judgment.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

Eyedoc84 said:


> I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.


Neither do I but diligent searching of the scriptures, commentaries and historical facts can point us in the right direction.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> There are some difficulties in that claim. Jesus reveals a cluster of conditions that must happen before his return (Matt. 24:27, 30). If this cluster happens in proximity to the Lord’s return, then both partial preterism and historicism are ruled out. Historicism is ruled out because the birthing metaphor suggests proximity to that generation.
> 
> If the abomination of desolation was Titus's entering the Temple, as many historicists and preterists claim, then that should have started the Great Tribulation (however we gloss that). And since the Tribulation is cut short by the Lord's appearing, that means we are experiencing persecution today because of Titus's actions in 70 AD.


There is some confusion over Matt 24. It appears Jesus was forecasting destruction and doom for the Jewish nation as he warns them of the sign they should be watching for in order to flee "When you the army surrounding the city". History records Titus with his army appeared a good 18 mths before to surround the city but was called away to another assignment. This gave all the disciples a good amount of time to get out which history records they all did to the City of Pella. The Tribulation upon the Jewish nation was truly terrible according to Josephus account. Parents eating their own children, daily murders and thefts ect. A million Jews thereabouts died and a million thereabouts enslaved was the result. The Lord appearing could easily be the end of this age or it could be a metaphysical appearing as in judgment upon the Jewish nation. Does Matt 24 encapsulate the entire 2000 period of the Christ's present reign? Possibly not. We have Revelations, Daniel , 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter and other scriptures to give us plenty of clues as well.

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 29, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And what about if they've vaxed their kids who didn't have any choice? "Sorry, buddy. You're a covenant child, but you've been unwillingly recruited to Satan's team. Nothing to do for it but call on the rocks and all that."


The Bible does talk about a great snare and deception coming upon the earth in the last days , so great that even the elect may be deceived but they won't be. Matt 24:24 . The whole world seem to be placing their full trust and belief in the 'State' as a virtual God in regards to the Covid Pandemic. There happens to be a sizeable few million of us who believe otherwise and understand they are blatantly lying and deceiving the entire world.


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## Andrew35 (Dec 29, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> The Bible does talk about a great snare and deception coming upon the earth in the last days , so great that even the elect may be deceived but they won't be. Matt 24:24 . The whole world seem to be placing their full trust and belief in the 'State' as a virtual God in regards to the Covid Pandemic. There happens to be a sizeable few million of us who believe otherwise and understand they are blatantly lying and deceiving the entire world.


So I'm not quite getting the connection you see between the vaccine and the mark of the beast: is this a 1:1 correlation to you?

That is, are you implying that someone who is vaccinated is not one of the elect? Because I have a huge problem with that.

Please clarify.

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

I must admit this seems to be quite an extreme position but we seem to be in a very extreme situation. Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

jwithnell said:


> The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."
> 
> Now to *moderate:*
> If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.


I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however. And in Matt 24 Jesus points out a specific sign the disciples are to look for in order to make their escape ( "when you see the armies surrounding Jerusalem") and history records their flight and complete deliverance as a Christian body to Pella in the Judean mountains. Again the Tribe of Issachar were commended for their understanding when Saul was about to lose the Kingship and David was about to take it. Revelations was written to _show_ us things which must shortly come to pass. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:18 promises a blessing to those who hear the words of the book of Revelation. The Thessalonians were comforted and warned by Paul that the Resurrection would not come until the great falling away had come first and the man of sin would arise from within the church. ( perfectly describes the pope) Paul had to speak in code but of course they all knew the Roman Empire was destined to fall ( what withholder that he might be revealed in his time) and the Kingdom of God to triumph from Dan 2, and Dan 7:13 as well of course from Christ's own teaching. A few hundred years Paul's prophetic instruction came to pass with the rise of the papacy and the gradual falling away from pure Christianity as Roman Catholicism was born. And though Jesus said in Acts 1 in response to the Apostles question " Lord, shall you restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?" he did not dismiss their question or say no but pointed them in the direction of world evangelisation. He continued to hold to his teaching on the Kingdom that it would work like yeast works throughout bread, meaning it's spread throughout the earth. It would in time cause the mighty Roman Empire to topple ( influenced by other factors we know). All scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16-17.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

Vernon said:


> Cyprian of Carthage (mid 3rd-century) also believed the end was near, and would be concurrent with the return of Jesus. He was not pre-millennial, as there had not as yet been enough time pass since Jesus was yet in his earthly ministry for such a perspective in time to have developed.
> 
> Cyprian was not alone. Belief that Jesus would return soon was prevalent — and I would say for good reason, considering our limited human perspective. I myself would probably have believed as well in an imminent return.
> 
> ...


I honestly believe there is _no way _our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society _is a lot worse off spiritually._ Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a _short work on the earth. _I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.


"The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context."
You could be right in the context I made the statement. However I was just stating what group I agreed with in my belief of who I think the antichrist is. In order to support my statement I would necessarily have to bring to the table facts and scriptures to support that statement which I can do. I like this list of statements by our most illustrious Reformation leaders https://www.challies.com/articles/a-cloud-of-witnesses/. One in particular grabs me by Charles Spurgeon

*Charles Spurgeon:* “It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description.”


BayouHuguenot said:


> That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2021)

Not sure what the Pope has to do with enforcing Covid vaccines, which would seem to be the case if he is Antichrist AND vax is mark of the beast, if indeed that is your position.


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## jwithnell (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however. And in Matt 24 Jesus points out a specific sign the disciples are to look for in order to make their escape ( "when you see the armies surrounding Jerusalem") and history records their flight and complete deliverance as a Christian body to Pella in the Judean mountains. Again the Tribe of Issachar were commended for their understanding when Saul was about to lose the Kingship and David was about to take it. Revelations was written to _show_ us things which must shortly come to pass. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:18 promises a blessing to those who hear the words of the book of Revelation. The Thessalonians were comforted and warned by Paul that the Resurrection would not come until the great falling away had come first and the man of sin would arise from within the church. ( perfectly describes the pope) Paul had to speak in code but of course they all knew the Roman Empire was destined to fall ( what withholder that he might be revealed in his time) and the Kingdom of God to triumph from Dan 2, and Dan 7:13 as well of course from Christ's own teaching. A few hundred years Paul's prophetic instruction came to pass with the rise of the papacy and the gradual falling away from pure Christianity as Roman Catholicism was born. And though Jesus said in Acts 1 in response to the Apostles question " Lord, shall you restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?" he did not dismiss their question or say no but pointed them in the direction of world evangelisation. He continued to hold to his teaching on the Kingdom that it would work like yeast works throughout bread, meaning it's spread throughout the earth. It would in time cause the mighty Roman Empire to topple ( influenced by other factors we know). All scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16-17.


Read carefully through Mark and the first chapter of Acts and you will see the disciples, religious leaders, and Roman leaders failing to see the Messiah standing among them and misunderstanding the connection between Jesus and the temple. Right until the ascension, people were expecting an earthly deliverance and totally missing that Christ had ushered in the new covenant, the promise of which now extends to the ends of the earth. 

Much of what you and others with similar eschatology write is so very western-centric. In your bid to pin the antichrist onto a single individual you skip right over the way the church extended from Britain to India in those first few hundred years of the church. You bounce right past the great men of the faith from places like Alexandia, Constantinople, and Antioch, locations that would challenge the Roman bishop's authority to this day. If the pope is the antichrist (note my alignment with the American WCF) are the dear brothers suffering in Afghanistan, China, North Korea, etc. somehow outside its grasp? Is the debauchery in the modern western world worse that what the early church experienced under Rome, or what missionaries to China under Japanese occupation endured? Or has the church always had to struggle to advance the gospel against the forces of evil that have now truly been vanquished, but not yet?

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> I honestly believe there is _no way _our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society _is a lot worse off spiritually._ Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a _short work on the earth. _I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.


I agree with you that we are in a remarkable global situation where the evil of an attempted casting off of God, a spiritual blindness and darkness, has descended upon the once Christianized west. But you shouldn’t lose sight that this overthrow is only “attempted” (Psalm 2), and in the past God has overthrown those rebellious kings and rulers and their governments, and out of darkness has brought the light of reformation once again. 

Jesus taught us to patiently watch and specifically what to pray, to pray in faith and expectation that laborers be sent into the harvest, that his name be hallowed, that his kingdom come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Yes, we pray for Christ’s return but also know that he’s working out his decrees and they are secret from us. So it’s better that we confess our lack of knowledge concerning the timing of his coming, and focus our prayers and work on the tasks he’s given us according to our places and stations in life. 

We may yet have another global upheaval upon us, with wars and rumors of war (the world has had quite a few of these!); out of which God will yet bring another day dawning of reformation to his church. We should pray for this, as we are commanded. Perhaps someone like @Ed Walsh can provide us a good list of those Scripture directives for prayer along these lines.

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## Vernon (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> I honestly believe there is _no way _our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society _is a lot worse off spiritually._ Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a _short work on the earth. _I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.


Whether or not society is worse spiritually is subjective. God alone is capable of making that judgment. Personally, I’m not so sure. In the Roman world, a father had the legal authority to kill his child up to the age of twelve: please compare that to the atrocity of abortion. Homosexuality had been encouraged by Alexander with his troops and was very much alive in the Hellenistic culture of Rome. Transgenderism was hailed as a sacred rite in many heathen worship forms. Human trafficking was openly practiced, without need for secrecy. Sale of children for abuse was part of the economy in the Graeco-Roman world.

Do I need to continue? Political corruption was not so much as debated or investigated— it was a way of life. As to the decline of Christian values, they had not yet experienced a rise in society, let alone had time for decline. New Age religion/witchcraft — the populace lived by those. Fines and jail: were not Christians flogged, tortured, and banished to death in the mines?

Do not forget that the Thessalonian church of the first century had some members led astray with belief in the imminent return of Jesus. And please note (from the sacred text) that their misspent eschatology created a condition that required the rebuke of the Apostle.

We are best off leaving the return of Jesus in the hands of the Father.

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

I would have to disagree with you regarding the Apostles that they didn't understand Jesus was the Messiah. Andrew rushes to find his brother Peter (John 1:41) "we have found the Messiah!" They were all following him because they believed he _was _the Messiah of Israel. "Blessed are you, for to you have been given the mysteries of the Kingdom" Jesus said to them and "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!" Came Peters reply to Jesus question. 
The temple connection was a spiritual revelation of course for the disciples that could probably only ever come after the event. The Jewish leaders were spiritually blind and deaf and the Roman leaders possibly admitted more than the Jewish leaders that Jesus was a spiritual teacher, leader and healer of the common people. They could see the jealousy of the Sanhedrin against Jesus and their fear of losing their positions under Roman rule. Pontius Pilot was convinced of his innocence but sold out to the mob under pressure. The Disciples were expecting Christ to restore the Kingdom according to all the messianic prophecies of the OT not realising this _Kingdom_ was going to be a _worldwide Kingdom _ based on the spiritually life changing power of the Gospel!_. _Jesus did not say _the Kingdom_ would _not be _ restored to them but rather they were _not to know_ the times and seasons regarding this event. He directed their gaze away from the land of Judea to the evangelization of the whole world! Nevertheless we know as history shows us the spread and development of the Christian world first became centred around the Roman and Greek speaking world of the time. In time the beginnings of the European nations that arose from the ruins of the Roman Empire formed the cradle of Christian civilisation. We speak of Western Civilisation as 'Christendom' for it is where the bulk of the Christian world lived and where the 2 most dominant Christian power structures developed ie. the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy. These 2 Churches were at one time a single united church which arose from the fall of the Roman Empire and it is impossible to minimize their significance when speaking of their religious and political influence in world history and upon the peoples of the entire world. The Celtic Church in Britain and Ireland remained beyond their influence for a time until Augustine of Canterbury was sent to demand their obeisance to Rome in 600 AD which did not come without a struggle (1100 AD saw their final subjugation to Rome until the Reformation. The Orthodox Churches remained aloof from Rome for centuries but Rome's agenda was always to bring all back under her mantle and this they have in large part succeeded through the World Council of Churches and their movement for _"Unity". _
God cares very deeply for our poor persecuted brethren in China, Afghanistan and North Korea and we must keep them in prayer. Their testimony astounds and encourages us and humbles us all to do better and live more fully for Christ. I'm in no way minimizing their Christian witness and testimony. However in the scheme of things and biblical prophecy the antichrist arises from the false church called "Mystery Babylon" which is Roman Catholicism. This Roman Catholicism is not _only _a _church _but a _political entity or country _as well! It is _Church and State unified, a political power! It is the religious version of the Roman Empire recast in Christian costume or appearance! 
.._The scriptures show the _man of sin or Antichrist _arises from within this Church or 'Temple' or 'Body' of Christ. He abrogates to himself God's own titles and claims complete power and control over all men , their souls, goods and countries including their governments, princes and kings. Scripture shows no one on earth will be out of the grasp of the antichrist or 'beast' of Revelation. Rev 13:16-17 He causeth '_all _' both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads . And that no man might buy or sell, save he had the Mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
it appears to some well studied in the subject we are under a WORLDWIDE PAPAL EDICT at the moment and this EDICT is the FORCED COVID VAX MANDATE upon ALL HUMANITY! There will be NO BUYING OR SELLING UNLESS YOU TAKE IT. And continue to take it for the rest of our miserable lives if we live that long. We "watch and pray" as Jesus told us to do, with eyes wide open watching the beast system arise in awesome power. " Who can make war with the beast"? Come quickly Lord Jesus Come is our prayer!


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## Ed Walsh (Dec 30, 2021)

Eyedoc84 said:


> I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.



I don't interpret it at all.


Jeri Tanner said:


> We may yet have another global upheaval upon us, with wars and rumors of war (the world has had quite a few of these!); out of which God will yet bring another day dawning of reformation to his church. We should pray for this, as we are commanded. Perhaps someone like @Ed Walsh can provide us a good list of those Scripture directives for prayer along these lines.



I can help, but working since early this AM on a deadline. Remind me if I don't get back by end of day.

Ed

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## MountainPilgrim (Dec 30, 2021)

I think it does us well in the west to be reminded that our peaceful and free way of life is in fact the anomaly in the grand scheme of human history, rather than the norm. 

Tyranny is a natural and common consequence of Original Sin, and as such is evil and should be resisted, but I do not believe we should so quickly interpret redemptive history through our own subjective experiences every time tyranny rears its ugly head. 

Yet even if this is the end or what have you, should we not then rejoice in the imminent return of our Lord? I never understood the fear and dread and trepidation that comes from those speculating the closeness of Christ's return. If you are so convinced that the Day of Judgment is rapidly approaching, praise God and joyfully cling to the Promise that will carry you through.

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## MountainPilgrim (Dec 30, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> That is, are you implying that someone who is vaccinated is not one of the elect? Because I have a huge problem with that.
> 
> Please clarify.


I would also appreciate a clear and unambiguous response to Andrew's question.

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## Osnah (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.


This doesn't sound far off from what it was like in the early days of the church under Roman rule. Jesus' words to the churches in Revelation shows us how bad it was for the early church in that they were greatly influenced to not worship the true God.

Under Roman rule your rights could be taken away for not worshipping the Caesar. If you didn't participate in the practices of the trade guilds (temple prostitution, idol worship, and more), you could not work to support your family. I am sure that if you interviewed early Christians, they would say that what we are experiencing today so far is nothing like being beheaded, lit on fire, or mauled by animals as entertainment.

The idea of Revelation is that persecution always happens throughout history. It comes and goes in it's harshness towards Christians, but it is always present in some form. Can we say that what we are experiencing today with Covid and all that it entails is what Revelation is referring to? That remains to be seen. Those that are being 'persecuted' today for not being vaxxed are not all Christians. The vaccine is not the mark of the beast. Is the world working together in some way to take away human rights? That is quite possible so. But at the time of the early church the whole world as they knew it was persecuting Christians.




pilgrimmum said:


> I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however.



If you are referring to Luke 12, Jesus is rebuking those that did not see the 'signs of the time' in that they were unable to discern from Scripture that the Messiah was on earth at that time. In verses 49-53 He tells His audience that He has come to 'divide' and not give peace on earth. In verses 54-56 Jesus rebukes them for knowing how to discern the weather, yet they were unable to discern that He was in fact the Messiah. They should have understood the "signs of the time" in the OT pointing to His arrival. He is saying that Scripture up to that point was pointing to Him. It was not referring to discerning the 'end of days' as we know it.


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## jwithnell (Dec 30, 2021)

MountainPilgrim said:


> I would also appreciate a clear and unambiguous response to Andrew's question.


*Moderating* 
Please keep discussions regarding covid and vaccinations in the coronavirus forum.

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## Phil D. (Dec 30, 2021)

jwithnell said:


> *Moderating*
> Please keep discussions regarding covid and vaccinations in the coronavirus forum.


 Honest question: Is this necessary even when the specific subject-matter has a predominantly theological/eschatological aspect to it?

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## A.Joseph (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> I must admit this seems to be quite an extreme position but we seem to be in a very extreme situation. Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.


You Aussies are in a bad way right now…

This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.

Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.

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## A.Joseph (Dec 30, 2021)

P.S. I don’t think the vaccine is the mark of the beast. (I don’t think to keep getting boosted is a great idea).




I do think other control issues surrounding the way we view health (and other human priorities) is a genesis to something that is brining about an even greater physical and/or external divide of humanity.


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## jwithnell (Dec 30, 2021)

Phil D. said:


> Honest question: Is this necessary even when the specific subject-matter has a predominantly theological/eschatological aspect to it?


I appreciate this question. I had not intended to "single you out" and had missed that the quote did not pick up parts of the previous parts of the thread. In this case, we've been trying to keep people involved who might otherwise have disengaged because the covid/vax issues get so heated.


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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> P.S. I don’t think the vaccine is the mark of the beast. (I don’t think to keep getting boosted is a great idea).
> View attachment 8756
> 
> I do think other control issues surrounding the way we view health (and other human priorities) is a genesis to something that is brining about an even greater physical and/or external divide of humanity.


All well and good with the booster advice thanks but if you don't get the booster from now on here in Australia you're considered unvaxxed and continue to no access to your former job( this includes all workers of any profession).

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## pilgrimmum (Dec 30, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> You Aussies are in a bad way right now…
> 
> This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.
> 
> Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.





A.Joseph said:


> You Aussies are in a bad way right now…
> 
> This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.
> 
> Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.


Just wondering if we as Christians are concerned about hundreds of thousands if not millions of our brethren in places like Australia and other nations where the Jab (refusal of) is forcing people out of employment. Do we just keep talking about the persecuted Christians in places like China, North Korea and Afghanistan but refuse to acknowledge the millions of vaccine injured and dead and now the jobless in these western countries? Are they worth less attention and concern because they live in a 'Western Nation' And once we have dismissed them with our theological framework do we continue to ignore their plight pleading we have 'more important matters' to attend to? This has eerily familiar overtones to a parable I know. The silence from the church is DEAFENING!

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## Andrew35 (Dec 30, 2021)

jwithnell said:


> I appreciate this question. I had not intended to "single you out" and had missed that the quote did not pick up parts of the previous parts of the thread. In this case, we've been trying to keep people involved who might otherwise have disengaged because the covid/vax issues get so heated.


I did pick up on what was said earlier. I was just confused because the position seemed to waver back and forth and wanted to press for a bit of clarity. 

I mean, the mark as presented in Revelation seems pretty binary to me: you either have it or you have the Father's seal on your forehead.

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## Ed Walsh (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> Revelations 20 describes the beginning of the Gospel Era where Satan is BOUND by a mighty Angel a 1000 yrs FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS.. This 1000 yrs symbolizes the reign of Jesus Christ on the earth from the time of His Resurrection and ascension and the spread of the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. I believe we are in the "SHORT SEASON" of Satan having been LOOSED and are now experiencing his satanic chaos in the world.



*Preface:*
There is an answer to all that I lament in what follows. You will be hearing more about it soon. But let me give you a hint. It's about God.
Ephesians 3:20

~~~~~~~

I am what most would call a Postmillennialist. But maybe that's splitting hairs. The only difference (I wish) between the Postmill and Amill camps is whether the Bible speaks of something yet future that is different or, is there is only one period described between the Ascension and the Second coming.

From my point of view, the belief that Satan is bound now is laughable. If what we have seen to date of Christ's dominion over the world is as good as it gets, then the claim of the increase of His Kingdom having no end has, well, ended.

A thumbnail view of the basis of my optimism for the future. I consider myself a 65 Book of the Bible Postmil. I don't understand much of the Revelation, but neither do you. And I can prove it. As long as there remain wildly different interpretations of Revelation 20, for example, it should demonstrate that the Book is still sealed in many respects. Let me ask you. What other book of the New Testament has as much divergence of viewpoints? Are there disputes about Justification by Faith? Over the past two thousand years, the Church has confessed many heresies out of the Church. It is no longer an issue whether or not the gentiles must be circumcised and keep the ritual laws of Moses. Previous to the Church council in Acts 15, the Judaizers were wrong in their views. But following the council, they were now considered heretics and subject to Church discipline. And thus goes the rest of the time until now when we can and should be dogmatic about many Gospel truths that were only points of disagreement in history. Are you aware that many of the early Church fathers would not be allowed to teach or preach, and in some cases, not accepted for church membership?

Now I grant that it is possible, though unlikely, that some individuals and groups may have stumbled on a true-ish interpretation of the Revelation. But even they must hold their view lightly and wait for the Church to give its agreed-upon view.

Be a little more humble, guys and gals, while we concentrate on the clearly revealed will of God and believe and work towards the development of the Great Commission.

Let me give my opinion. I believe that these modern negative forms of Amillineaism will someday be called heresy. Remember what God did to the spies and the 600,000 adults when they ceased to accept their "Great Commission."

Christ is often denominated as the Savior of the World, and the whole Bible is filled with prayers and prophesies that state that the Nations will flow into the Church.

Even if it is the end of time, where are we told to act differently towards our commander and chief? And what Greek philosophy have we accepted that somehow the spirit of man is so much more important than its outworking in the world of matter.

Below are some paragraphs from something I am working on.
~~~~~~~
Trivial Pursuit - It's Not a Game 

You must have noticed that the commercial is almost always better than the product. 

The restaurant's menu is filled with beautiful photographs of lovely dinners and luscious burgers. Don't they seem irresistible? So you are enticed to order one of those delicious-looking burgers. But when it is served, it never looks like the picture. But you knew that would be the case. We are just used to the advertisement being better than the product advertised. That's life. 

*Apologia:* The sweeping generalization is a logical fallacy that I will attempt not to make. But I will speak very generally of what I have seen is commonly true among most professing Christians in our day. I know that some of you who do not fit this mold might disagree with what I say. Still, others who are lazy and worldly will make fun of what I say. But for the rest of you, and I include myself, listen- Please listen. 

I want to speak generally of the day we are living in. In my fifty years of experience as a Christian, I have concluded that we are currently a pathetic bunch. I think the Church, at least the Church I'm familiar with in the United States, is operating at a level as far below normal as Pentecost was above normal. And we are used to it and don't really expect all that much more. 

The way I see it, the Church is a joke in the eyes of the world. And don't make the mistake of thinking that it's persecution. We are weak, without strength, with little confidence in what the great King of Heaven and Earth may yet do in this world. You know who I mean, the one to whom all power and glory in heaven and on Earth have been given. One of the most significant signs of our times is the prevalence of a defeatist form of amillennialism. As if we somehow have to explain why nothing is really happening or improving in Christendom. We make apologies for King Jesus. 

Christendom, that's a concept that, as far as I can tell, has no meaning in the present world in which we live. Many, even of the Reformed, don't believe we should hope and work for such a thing as Christendom. We not only have lost our hope in this world to see the glory of God, but we've adopted doctrines that explain why we shouldn't have much hope. I like to put it this way. From what the Bible teaches about the growth of the Kingdom of God on Earth from beginning to end, one could objectively conclude that Jesus is a pretty shoddy Savior of the World. That the commercial was far better than the product as advertised.
~~~~~~~ 
I just gotta run a passage or two from Jesus' prayer in John 17 about our future oneness of Christians.

John 17:11
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:20-23
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Many say, "Isn't the Spiritual oneness between true Christians a wonderful thing?"

What oneness? I see the exact opposite. We are not one. We are a pathetic mess. Jesus prayed that our oneness would be so evident that the world--the God-hating world--would be unable to deny that the Father sent the Son as Savior of the world. 

FYI
Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on. According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, estimations show more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally. Feb 27, 2021

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> I just gotta run a passage or two from Jesus' prayer in John 17 about our future oneness of Christians.


Yes! Ephesians 4:8-16. We are so privileged to pray for these glorious things.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2021)

pilgrimmum said:


> Just wondering if we as Christians are concerned about hundreds of thousands if not millions of our brethren in places like Australia and other nations where the Jab (refusal of) is forcing people out of employment.


I think we sure can miss this. Those things are happening here in the US as well, but perhaps not as widely and egregiously as in Australia and other places. 


pilgrimmum said:


> And once we have dismissed them with our theological framework do we continue to ignore their plight pleading we have 'more important matters' to attend to? This has eerily familiar overtones to a parable I know. The silence from the church is DEAFENING!


I don’t think anyone is dismissing people’s suffering via a theological framework. The point I think rather is seeking to grasp God’s great promises and purposes in the midst of suffering, and praying to that end, including pleas for mercy. 

Do you feel that the silence of the churches in Australia is deafening?


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 31, 2021)

I hope to keep this pithy. Back in John's day, the mark of the beast was figurative (G.K. Beale's view), the mark in the hand signifying the actions one takes in cooperation with the beast / ungodly state against Christ and His people, and the mark in the forehead the disposition of the mind to follow the beast thusly. Even though some slavers branded their slaves with a mark, the forbidden mark was a sign of idolatry God knew even if invisible to man.

It remains thus today. *However* – a big however! – while it is an invisible mark even today, the technology of today makes it possible to mark people, both willingly and unwillingly, for agreed compliance, and/or coerced/forced *un*willing compliance and tracking.

As one who is highly alert to "beast-marking" – and who has been boosted – I am not marked by the beast, but sealed by God; seeing I have had respiratory illness (likely from earlier years of smoking), heart disease (now treated), and am nigh 80 years old, reckon it prudent to have been fully vaxed – otherwise how could I travel in the Lord's work and freely mingle with people while seeking to plant a church? Plus I am in the vulnerable category of those both aged and having "co-morbidities" which could send me into eternity sooner than later, unable to labor in the harvest.

The connection I see with the various and apparently ongoing covid vaccinations is that it is putting into place, under the guise of public health and safety, a high-tech government-controlled monitoring of people and their actions (and even emotions!) enhanced by AI, an exemplar of this being exhibited by China and the CCP. Author Kai Strittmatter, in his book, _We Have Been Harmonized: Life in China's Surveillance State_, does a good job showing how this happened / is happening there. On _this_ side of the world the covid mandates and tracking/surveillance (smartphones being enlisted to aid this) it is being implemented as a public health matter – putting into place the same sort of government-controlled surveillance. Not just a "trial run" to get us used to it, but the actual technological groundwork for mass population control slowly being formed.

It is not the jab that is the mark of the beast, nor even the technology of surveillance, but what shall eventually be – in the name of public health and safety – allegiance to the beast state in its enforcement of sane, unbigoted, enlightened solidarity with humankind unfettered by the pathology and wickedness of the "hate-fostering" Bible, the Christ it promotes, and the Christians who adhere to both it and Him. We shall be outlawed, as will our King and His holy Law.

Those who will not comply with this universal mandate – by whatever means of compliance and attestation the state will require – will be unable to buy, sell, be licensed, able to rent, to enter premises, etc without the proper QR code or whatever technology will come up with signifying your adherence to the order of the state.

The antidote for Christ's people shall be His presence with us, "And they overcame him [the dragon] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death....And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:11, 17).

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## Andrew35 (Dec 31, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I hope to keep this pithy. Back in John's day, the mark of the beast was figurative (G.K. Beale's view), the mark in the hand signifying the actions one takes in cooperation with the beast / ungodly state against Christ and His people, and the mark in the forehead the disposition of the mind to follow the beast thusly. Even though some slavers branded their slaves with a mark, the forbidden mark was a sign of idolatry God knew even if invisible to man.
> 
> It remains thus today. *However* – a big however! – while it is an invisible mark even today, the technology of today makes it possible to mark people, both willingly and unwillingly, for agreed compliance, and/or coerced/forced *un*willing compliance and tracking.
> 
> ...


I would say this describes my own position perfectly as well, and better than I could.

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