# Families and Corporate Worship



## Marrow Man (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm under the conviction that, as much as is possible and prudent, families need to be together for corporate worship. Some churches utilize "children's church" (a misnomer if there ever was one -- they are being taken _out _of church) but thankfully cut this off at an early age. Others encourage children to be a part of worship as early as possible.

For NewSpring Church (the one that formerly just broke my heart -- now it makes me angry) in Anderson, SC, the idea of dividing up families takes on a whole new meaning. They actually use bouncers (their word) to split up families attending worship. I'm not kidding. From their own website:



> Q9: How do you handle confrontations that occur because you do not allow children to go into the service?
> A9: We let them know that we want a distraction free service not just for the people around them, but so the PARENT can get the most out of the service. We also let them know that we care so much about their child that we want them to have the most age-appropriate learning about Christ. First-time greeters are very intentional about if they see a family with a child to go ahead and be talking up the children’s service and how much fun they are going to have. This also lets the parents know that they will not be with them in the service. We have children bouncers that are especially trained for the confrontational conversations. If these bouncers are volunteers are parents themselves, they can give a personal testimony of how much their children love the service. And you just have to know that sometimes people leave. The ultimate thing to remember is that God is sovereign.


I comment more about this on my blog here.

Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Sep 9, 2009)

I dont think the idea of a bouncer is a good idea but I agree that another woship service geared toward children is a good idea. Children are often not mature enough to participate in an average worship service that the adults do. By sticking them in there you often stunt their growth instead of encouraging it.


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## he beholds (Sep 9, 2009)

What?
That is real? 
What?















sorry, speechless.

-----Added 9/9/2009 at 10:50:06 EST-----



Unashamed 116 said:


> I dont think the idea of a bouncer is a good idea but I agree that another woship service geared toward children is a good idea. *Children are often not mature enough to participate in an average worship service that the adults do. By sticking them in there you often stunt their growth instead of encouraging it.*



Do you have any evidence for this theory?


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

Unashamed 116 said:


> I dont think the idea of a bouncer is a good idea but I agree that another woship service geared toward children is a good idea. Children are often not mature enough to participate in an average worship service that the adults do. By sticking them in there you often stunt their growth instead of encouraging it.



You stunt their growth? How can a child, being exposed to the Word of God, be stunted? Or is it that parents are much too lazy in their parenting these days to take the time to teach the Word of God at home? As a Baptist, I readily state that many young children have not yet come to faith in Christ. But how do they come to faith in Christ? Through the preaching of the gospel. The gospel does not need to be dumbed down to their level in order for them to believe.


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.



Tim,

I don't know about "bouncers." That seems to be a bit extreme. Our sending church has age segregated classes, and they DO enforce it; although they do not prohibit parents from brining their children into worship. If they child becomes disruptive, an usher will ask them to take their child to the nursery or step outside of the sanctuary. We operate differently. We welcome parents to keep their children in worship.


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Not only do parents have the responsibility to teach their children discipline by being calm and still through the service, but the congregation has a responsibility to not be so easily distracted. Babies cry. Kids play. These things happen. It is the height of foolishness, In my humble opinion, to demand families be separated in worship so that folks can have "a distraction free service," or so that "the PARENT can get the most out of the service." Excuse me, is Church primarily for the purpose of what we can get out of it, or is it the command of God to corporately exalt His Name and learn of Who He is? I think it's the latter. What a shame, but what _not_ a surprise it is.



Brother, the only caveat I will add to your statement is that a parent could temporarily excuse themselves if the child is not able to be brought under control. I've seen this happen, although not often. In extreme cases the parent can remove their child, deal with the issue, and then return. But I agree with your that the normal fidgeting and noises that young children make are part of what young children do. It's also the job of the parents to train these children not to act that way. In the meantime the rest of us are to set our attention on worship, not distractions.


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## dbroyles (Sep 9, 2009)

Herald said:


> Unashamed 116 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont think the idea of a bouncer is a good idea but I agree that another woship service geared toward children is a good idea. Children are often not mature enough to participate in an average worship service that the adults do. By sticking them in there you often stunt their growth instead of encouraging it.
> ...



Amen. The Scriptures show God working through covenant families. Could the Puritans see our modern practices, they would turn over in their graves. It is an act of faith on the part of parents who trust not in methods, horses, money, or anything else but the foolishness of preaching to bring their little ones to God.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 9, 2009)

Two important things churches can do to help Parents with "active" kids (like my 3-year old) under a certain age is have a "cry room" adjacent to the sanctuary with the service being "pumped in". Also it helps to have a congregation (and a Pastor) that is not so ADD that they cannot tune out a crying baby or a rowdy kid being disciplined.


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Also it helps to have a congregation (and a Pastor) that is not so ADD that they cannot tune out a crying baby or a rowdy kid being disciplined.
> ...



Ha! It's not just children that need training. Adults need it to.


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## he beholds (Sep 9, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Two important things churches can do to help Parents with "active" kids (like my 3-year old) under a certain age is have a "cry room" adjacent to the sanctuary with the service being "pumped in". Also it helps to have a congregation (and a Pastor) that is not so ADD that they cannot tune out a crying baby or a rowdy kid being disciplined.



Our church uses a simple baby monitor to pipe the service into a cloak room with a couch, to where breastfeeding moms or parents with rowdy children can easily escape. It doesn't have to be fancy or expensive. 
Our church allows parents to decide whether to bring their children or leave them in the nursery. We even have a couple families who don't allow their children to go to their own "age-appropriate" Sunday school class, so there are even children in the adult class. As far as I know, these parents have never been approached about this decision. 

Also, our church does have a children's address before the sermon. We, and others, don't send our children up for it, and we've never been questioned about this, either.


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

he beholds said:


> We even have a couple families who don't allow their children to go to their own "age-appropriate" Sunday school class, so there are even children in the adult class. As far as I know, these parents have never been approached about this decision.



I've been teaching Sunday school for the past nineteen months. It's an aged integrated class. I make a point of regularly addressing the children. It's not that I need to, but it sometimes causes their ears to perk up when they are addressed specifically.


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## Montanablue (Sep 9, 2009)

I guess I'll be the one naysayer here... I wish that my church had had some sort of separate time for children during the service. I never understood what the pastor was talking about - and I was not a fidgity, bored, or stupid child. My parents made sure that we sat quietly and attentively (and being a compliant type, I never made trouble), but I hadn't the faintest notion as to what was going on in the sermon. If I ever have children, I will make sure that they at least go to a Sunday school class that is geared for their age. A 4 year old just isn't going to understand a sermon on substitionary atonement - I don't care how smart they are. And I want my children to understand the gospel rather than learning that church is a time when they must sit still and make a show of listening and understanding.

Please don't misunderstand - I certainly don't think that children should be banned from the service. Its a decision that should be up to the parents, of course. And I think that its best to keep the children in for the singing, prayers etc. I just would hate to make my children sit and listen to something they cannot understand if there is more age appropriate teaching available.

-----Added 9/9/2009 at 12:40:06 EST-----

I should also say that I find the idea of "bouncers" to completely inappropriate. The situation that Tim describes is extreme and...weird. I'm just saying that I think a children's church option is wise.


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## Zenas (Sep 9, 2009)

That's disgusting. 

I personally loathe children's church and my child wont be going for many reasons. First, if they're going to learn to sit still, listen, and participate in worship, why do I need to wait until they're 5-6 to teach them that? Moreover, why am I going to give them 2-3 years to develop bad habits, only to have to break them once they're "big enough" to come worship with the congregation? Second, why do I want to set up a habit of them leaving me during church on Sunday, only to arbitrarily break that habit up after a few years? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


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## Herald (Sep 9, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I should also say that I find the idea of "bouncers" to completely inappropriate. The situation that Tim describes is extreme and...weird. I'm just saying that I think a children's church option is wise.



We used to have a Puritan Bouncer on the PB. We did, really. Scary looking dude. He doubles these days as a Penn State fan.


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## Zenas (Sep 9, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I guess I'll be the one naysayer here... I wish that my church had had some sort of separate time for children during the service. I never understood what the pastor was talking about - and I was not a fidgity, bored, or stupid child. My parents made sure that we sat quietly and attentively (and being a compliant type, I never made trouble), but I hadn't the faintest notion as to what was going on in the sermon. If I ever have children, I will make sure that they at least go to a Sunday school class that is geared for their age. A 4 year old just isn't going to understand a sermon on substitionary atonement - I don't care how smart they are. And I want my children to understand the gospel rather than learning that church is a time when they must sit still and make a show of listening and understanding.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand - I certainly don't think that children should be banned from the service. Its a decision that should be up to the parents, of course. And I think that its best to keep the children in for the singing, prayers etc. I just would hate to make my children sit and listen to something they cannot understand if there is more age appropriate teaching available.
> 
> ...



Even if you didn't understand, was it not still good that you were taught to sit quietly during that time and be attentive? I would value setting up that practice and habit so that when you can understand, you don't have other problems like being hyperactive or wanting to get up. 

Also, I would suggest that your parents question you about some of the basics of the sermon afterwards. If you didn't understand, I would suggest they explain them to you. Eventually, you'd learn enough that you could understand.


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## Andres (Sep 9, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I guess I'll be the one naysayer here... I wish that my church had had some sort of separate time for children during the service. I never understood what the pastor was talking about - and I was not a fidgity, bored, or stupid child. My parents made sure that we sat quietly and attentively (and being a compliant type, I never made trouble), but I hadn't the faintest notion as to what was going on in the sermon. If I ever have children, I will make sure that they at least go to a Sunday school class that is geared for their age. A 4 year old just isn't going to understand a sermon on substitionary atonement - I don't care how smart they are. And I want my children to understand the gospel rather than learning that church is a time when they must sit still and make a show of listening and understanding.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand - I certainly don't think that children should be banned from the service. Its a decision that should be up to the parents, of course. And I think that its best to keep the children in for the singing, prayers etc. I just would hate to make my children sit and listen to something they cannot understand if there is more age appropriate teaching available.



While I would have to say that I am believe the children should be part of the worship service, I do understand where you are coming from. I think it was John MacArthur that I once heard say he always tries to keep his teaching/preaching at a 7th grade level. While the scriptures do deal with some complicated subjects, part of the job of a quality preacher would be to explain the scriptures on the level appropriate to the audience. Of course, we would not expect the preacher to minister on the level of a 4 yr old. MacArthur also said that he encourages these younger children to draw pictures of his sermons. He said that he has received some wonderful drawings over the years from children as young as 4 & 5 that he still has because they are a tremendous blessing to him to see what the kids have drawn. Sure they don't understand every bit of the message, but the drawings do keep them occupied and condition them to at least actively listen to the preaching of the Word.


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## he beholds (Sep 9, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I'll be the one naysayer here... I wish that my church had had some sort of separate time for children during the service. I never understood what the pastor was talking about - and I was not a fidgity, bored, or stupid child. My parents made sure that we sat quietly and attentively (and being a compliant type, I never made trouble), but I hadn't the faintest notion as to what was going on in the sermon. If I ever have children, I will make sure that they at least go to a Sunday school class that is geared for their age. A 4 year old just isn't going to understand a sermon on substitionary atonement - I don't care how smart they are. And I want my children to understand the gospel rather than learning that church is a time when they must sit still and make a show of listening and understanding.
> ...



And it is not only teaching them to sit still. I can teach that at home. But it is teaching them what the body of Christ looks like. My son currently wants to be a pastor (so as not to sound pious, he also wants to be a teacher like his daddy). He would not want to be a pastor if he did not know what one was. My son sings and speaks into pretend microphones (albeit weird-ish things like, "Thank you the Christ Lord for coming here..."). My in-laws took our children to evening church two days ago (we were at a wedding...another thread, maybe) and my brother-in-law (the pastor) read the entire 119th Psalm. My mother-in-law reported that our son was mesmerized and listened to almost all of it. (He's three--give him a break) 
Now she also reported that he was later fanning the old ladies in front of him and was telling Grandma to shush when she told him to, so he can be a distraction. 
My son is also currently obsessed with baptism. Had he been in children's church a few weeks ago during my niece's baptism, his natural curiosity would not extend to that. (He told me our baby doll needs baptized...)

I think the fact that my son a) knows what a pastor is and does b)can begin to recognize and sing hymns with us c) hears the word read and preached regularly and d) practices things like tithing and praying is well-worth the few distractions that he causes and the lack of understanding that he _may_ receive. 

I think your argument, Kathleen, is a valid one and I do think parents can do more to include children in the sermon. I admit it, I whisper to my son to pay attention when something familiar is coming his way. If the Pastor is talking about the Exodus, I will whisper, "remember Pharaoh? (whom my son is also currently obsessed with) Pastor is talking about him...."
But I think children probably get more from church than we can measure. I think that they are a part of the Covenant and should be extended the same means of grace that adults are. (If not participating in them, such as communion, then witnessing them.)
I've recently been to a church that has an entire additional concurrent service for young adults. I am sure many of them would be lost in a traditional service with "a sermon on substitionary atonement," but I don't think they should choose to separate themselves from the seeming-diversity of the flock.


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## Christusregnat (Sep 9, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.



The local dial-a-church with a coffee shop in the lobby (can you say "house of merchandise"?) and Obama stickers on the cars outside has a "NO CHILDREN IN SANCTUARY" sign in the foyer and a picture of a baby _*CROSSED OUT*_ in the "sanctuary".

Cheers,


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## Scottish Lass (Sep 9, 2009)

Every child matures differently, and most children's churches set an arbitrary age as to when a child is ready for worship. I know a young man who expressed saving faith at four years old. I know others that could explain bits and pieces of the sermon at young elementary ages, primarily because they knew they would be asked about the sermon after lunch. If they are seated with the congregation, little bits will sink in, especially week after week. 

This makes more sense to me than simply turning the spigot on full blast when they are six (or whatever the target age may be) and expecting them to display listening and behavioral skills that haven't been required before.


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## Marrow Man (Sep 9, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.
> ...



Are you serious?


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## Marrow Man (Sep 9, 2009)

Well, this will probably be a  (not that I haven't already done that  ), but the preaching of the word in corporate worship is a means of grace (at least in Reformed understanding); the removal of children to go into another part of the church is not. One is led by a (hopefully) seminary-trained ordained man; the other most likely led by a volunteer. If your church is blessed, he/she (probably she) is knowledgeable about the Scriptures; my fear, however, is that this is the exception and not the rule, and that arts and crafts and videos are the more common diet. In a worst case scenario (I remember reading something Piper wrote once about how everything in his church is coordinated to prevent this), there may be something being taught in "children's church" that actually _contradicts _what is being taught from the pulpit.


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## CredoFidoSpero (Sep 9, 2009)

I go to a medium large church with lots of kids, and those ages 4 and up stay for the first part of worship and then are dismissed, and about 25-30% of the adults go with them as teachers/volunteers. I'm not completely against children's church, but it bothers me that _so_ many of the adults also miss out on the preaching and corporate worship. 

But there's no pressure that the kids have to leave - it's up to the parents, and there is a lot of coming and going with parents and babies/younger kids, and no one minds. 

Actually, the first time I visited this church a baby started crying pretty loudly towards the back during the sermon, and the pastor paused and said, "Wait, is that so-and-so? You go ahead and cry - you just stay there and cry. Folks, her daddy just left for Iraq. So you can cry all you want." And she did cry some off and on during the rest of church, but nobody cared - I had no problem attending to that sermon at all, and I knew I would probably end up staying at that church.

My last church was much less tolerant - parents weren't forced to send their kids to children church, but the ushers would descend on you pretty quickly and make you leave if a baby/child got disruptive.


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## kceaster (Sep 9, 2009)

What I find funny is that the concept is completely foreign for close to 2000 years of Christian worship.

Now we can't live without a cry room or a nursery.

As one who along with my wife put the hand of the plow several years ago, we raised our sons as gentlemen and would not accept anything less. That doesn't mean they were always angels, but for the most part, they have been on line and smartly dressed. It doesn't take regeneration for this behavior, though it no doubt helps. It does take a firm but loving hand and an unwavering resolve.

Incidently, I learned this definition in 7th grade (being a bit rambunctious, I had to memorize it before I could escape school detention):

A gentleman or a lady is one who considers the rights of others before his or her own feelings, and the feelings of others before his or her own rights.

My boys grew up learning that and it has served them well.

In Christ,

KC


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## Montanablue (Sep 9, 2009)

> I go to a medium large church with lots of kids, and those ages 4 and up stay for the first part of worship and then are dismissed, and about 25-30% of the adults go with them as teachers/volunteers.



A lot of you have brought up good points, and I do have answers for them, but I'm at work right now, so a longer post will have to wait.

I do want to say though, that I think the above situation is ideal. This way, the children are in church for the hymns, baptisms, new members acceptance etc, but they also receive teaching from which they will benefit. I would probably be uncomfortable sending my children out for the whole service - seems a bit unnecessary - but I do think having them hear teaching on their level is better than having them sit under something they don't have the mental ability to grasp. 

More later...


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## kceaster (Sep 9, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> > I go to a medium large church with lots of kids, and those ages 4 and up stay for the first part of worship and then are dismissed, and about 25-30% of the adults go with them as teachers/volunteers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But what about the Word not returning void? And really, whether someone is 80 or 8, unless the Spirit imparts the things of the Spirit, what does it profit?

We will never know what the Spirit will do with the means of grace. That is not our job. Our job is to avail ourselves of those means as often and as much as is possible.

In Christ,

KC


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## jwithnell (Sep 9, 2009)

As a Mom to child on the autism spectrum, I can guarantee that any noise he makes is probably 20 times louder for me! I am so concerned about having God's worship interrupted in any way.

That said, I respectfully disagree that level of understanding should make much difference in participating in the service. It's unbelievable what sinks in. When he was 4 or 5 and the Sunday School classes were singing in the sanctuary, he pulled away from his teacher and ran up in the pulpit. What did he say? "I am the Lord Your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt ... you shall have not other God beside me..." i.e., his concept of what comes from the pulpit is the law of God! How does he know that? From hearing it.

When I was a real little kid, my church did have its youngest members stay until right before the pastoral prayer and sermon. That makes some sense. I think we understood the transition. Also, that building had a door out from the sanctuary about half way up on the left. How I wish my current church had such an arrangement!


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## brianeschen (Sep 9, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.



I went to a conference out here in California at a mega church. As we walked into the sanctuary with our children, as we always do, we were greeted by an usher who informed us that our children were not welcome. I asked why this was the case and was informed that it is church policy to not let children in the sanctuary. After all, you wouldn't want your child to be the cause of distracting someone who was going to believe in Jesus, would you? [please note, that was their reasoning not mine]


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## Andres (Sep 9, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.
> ...



So did you walk out right then or did you even bother trying to explain some sense into this guy?


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## Idelette (Sep 9, 2009)

kceaster said:


> But what about the Word not returning void? And really, whether someone is 80 or 8, unless the Spirit imparts the things of the Spirit, what does it profit?
> 
> We will never know what the Spirit will do with the means of grace. That is not our job. Our job is to avail ourselves of those means as often and as much as is possible.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more! People give more creedence to the age of a child and their level of _POSSIBLE_ understanding rather than to the power of God's Word! God's Word _DOES NOT _return void, but accomplishes the very purpose for which it was sent...regardless of age or level of understanding! I fully believe that children can and do understand spiritual things by the grace of God and the work of His Spirit! I have seen 5 year olds express a love for God and for His Word and a knowledge that is simply more than what they were taught! I have friends that are believers today that would say that they came to faith by remembering and recalling the many things they learned when they were a child! I have believing friends that are severely mentally-handicapped and many people would say that they are unable to comprehend theology or doctrine or even the gospel! And, I couldn't disagree more! 

If the preaching of the Word is the means of grace and the power of salvation unto men, then why would we deprive our children of this great blessing? Why would separate them from the hearing of the Word which saves men's souls because there is a possibility that they may or may not understand? Do we not believe that God is powerful enough and able to save? Do we not believe that its the Spirit that gives birth and not our intellect? Did not Christ say "let the little children come to me."?

"People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." -Mark 10: 13-15


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## Edward (Sep 9, 2009)

Zenas said:


> That's disgusting.
> 
> I personally loathe children's church and my child wont be going for many reasons. First, if they're going to learn to sit still, listen, and participate in worship, why do I need to wait until they're 5-6 to teach them that? Moreover, why am I going to give them 2-3 years to develop bad habits, only to have to break them once they're "big enough" to come worship with the congregation? Second, why do I want to set up a habit of them leaving me during church on Sunday, only to arbitrarily break that habit up after a few years? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.



I, too, was an expert on parenting before I had a child.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Sep 10, 2009)

The missing ingredient in these decisions often is a failure to ask the question about what the Lord commands, either by precept or good example from Scripture. The simple truth is that we have no leading in Scripture whatever concerning separating out children from the worship service. The puritan/reformed principle of worship is that God regulates such from His Word. 

To the contrary of much modern practice, the language of Scripture regarding who comes to worship is *inclusive* of children in the worship service, not exclusive. If we would separate our children out of the corporate worship, what Scriptural principle or text would we assert as requiring this practice? I believe that the Scriptures press us to include our children in the worship service. (Deuteronomy 29.10; Matthew 18.1-14)


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## Tim (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes, and I think the thing to remember here is that people don't cease to be families (one form of government) when they attend corporate worship at church (another form of government). By the way that some of these churches operate, you would think that it is expected that families operate as families during the entire week, but not during Lord's Day activities because they are split up!


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## tlharvey7 (Sep 10, 2009)

when Jesus ministered, there were children all around and He should be our "church model" also... how can it be a church "body" when you are seperating and dismissing kids?
i remember inviting a co-worker to a calvary chapel i use to attend. he brought his wife and 8 year old daughter. he was horrified as he was bombarded on at least 3 occassions
that there was a seperate place for his daughter. he never visited again
i also know of another calvary chapel where my friend brought his autistic daughter and 
it was DEMANDED of him to go into a seperate room.
these things are greivous and disgusting


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## brianeschen (Sep 17, 2009)

Andres said:


> brianeschen said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...


We tried explaining that our children would be able to sit just fine and then went to the "2nd Class Citizen Room" as we dubbed it. This was a room across the campus with sound piped in.


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## Vonnie Dee (Sep 17, 2009)

I think that parents that don't want to send their children to children's church should not be shunned or pestered to do so. However, I think that people should not assume that because children's church is available that it is a time of wild partying. I take turns assisting my husband as teachers. We have a church approved curriculum, rules, consequences, chairs, and tables. It is very orderly and the children have a lesson on their level. Different aged people learn at different levels. Any school you go to, whether home, private, or public requires different things from different aged children. They are taught in different ways. 

Also, I think that some (I said some, not all) people have the illlusion of worshipping as a family. What really happens in some cases is that the dad sits with serveral children while the mom goes in and out with one or more crying or loud children. I know one mother that always gets the sermons on tape so she can listen to them after the service. She has five children under 8. She says it has been that long since she sat through a whole service. Is this family really worshipping together if the mother and some child have been away for 8 years? I'm sure she is not an extreme case because I see it happening at the church I go to now.


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## LawrenceU (Sep 18, 2009)

Obviously as a pastor of a family integrated church I have some pretty strong convictions about this.

Yes, I've been 'bounced' with my family at some churches when we have been visiting. I never lost my cool, but when I expressed the desire for my daughter to sit with us (this time she was 11) during worship the 'usher' called on his radio for reinforcements and I was told in no uncertain terms that during the worship hour none under the age of 16 were allowed in the service. They had 'age appropriate' services for them So, we went down the street to another church. I've experienced similar things at other churches as well.

One reason that there is so much strife concerning worship 'style', music, and cultures is that for at least one generation and a half children have not been involved in the worship service of the adults. They are carted off to something that is centered around them and their desires with a bit of Scripture sprinkled on it until they reach what should be young adulthood. When they rejoin the adults they are disinterested, not engaging and demanding something that they can understand. Can you blame them? They have been trained to think and act like that.

That alone would be enough for me, but then there are the arguments and examples from Scripture that never show children being excluded from corporate worship. Rather, the times they are mentioned they are included. And, whose responsibility ultimately is it for the spiritual training of the child? The father.


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## nasa30 (Sep 18, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> One reason that there is so much strife concerning worship 'style', music, and cultures is that for at least one generation and a half children have not been involved in the worship service of the adults. They are carted off to something that is centered around them and their desires with a bit of Scripture sprinkled on it until they reach what should be young adulthood. When they rejoin the adults they are disinterested, not engaging and demanding something that they can understand. Can you blame them? They have been trained to think and act like that.
> 
> That alone would be enough for me, but then there are the arguments and examples from Scripture that never show children being excluded from corporate worship. Rather, the times they are mentioned they are included. And, whose responsibility ultimately is it for the spiritual training of the child? The father.


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## CatherineL (Sep 18, 2009)

We are very much in the trenches on this one, having 3 children 4 and under (and another on the way!) We have worked hard from a young age to have our children included in the service because of our conviction that scripture mentions several points where everyone (you, your wives, and you little ones) are all together hearing from the Lord. 

We have visited friends' churches and have been asked to send out kids to nursery/children's church. I have gone to the ladies restroom (seriously!) to sit with my kids at one megachurch where the audio was piped in and there was a nursing chair. I'm especially not going to send my kids away with strangers when visiting a church - to me its a safety issue at the very least. Sorry if that sounds paranoid.

My church has a portable monitor (we're a put up/take down church at the moment) that they rig up every week so there's a room where the kids can be if they need to be taken out, but the moms/dad's can still hear. This is best of both worlds for me, since I can let my 15 month old toddle around while having my 2.5 year old sit on the chair (practice for sitting in the service) and correct her as needed while not missing the sermon or distracting anyone Insisting that toddlers practice sitting down nightly for family worship is very helpful for training them young, but I find that the little ones still can have a hard time with all the stimulation at the actual church service, so I've always had to train kids in the service too. 

Our church also has a sort of self-regulated "families with little kids area." We all sit closest to the doors to make quick exits. That way we also don't bother the hyper-sensitive folks with our kids munching their cheerios or shifting in their seats. 


I've been a Sunday school teacher before and worked with completely unchurched kids. These kids weren't getting any training at home, so a fun, at their level class was very helpful to them - it gave them a starting point and an opportunity for someone to spell things out for them that they had no previous exposure to. But my kids are getting trained at home with age appropriate methods (memorization of course, but also the fun songs, crafts, stories), so during corporate worship it seems appropriate to have them in the service when possible.


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## Reepicheep (Sep 18, 2009)

I usually find this discussion frustrating. 

I appreciate the reaction to total age segregation in the church but fail to see how some segregation is unbiblical, as some will claim. The passion of some *Total *"age integration" people clings heavily to the supposedly iron-clad biblical argument that children were always present in worship services - as if there are multiple examples of corporate worship services in Scripture which give all the details about who was present for what and if there were allowable exceptions or reasons for doing something slightly different-I mean, there weren't children at the Last Supper...- ...anyways. Further, we see the elements of worship portrayed in Scripture, but lack explicit commands about much of what/when/how various elements should be in a service, etc.

I appreciate this passion as we witness extreme age segregation in many churches today, I even share a level of the conviction and concern but do think there are multiple possible considerations and practical options that don't render a church unbiblical in it's practice because it may practice some level of mild age segregation (in worship, Sunday School, and perhaps a Christian School). 

For a present example, we have had the joy and challenge of many new families from broadly evangelical backgrounds coming regularly. Most of them have never considered the notion of total age integration as described by some of the brethren here. Should we inadvertently turn them away because we have no option for their young, untrained (to sit through Sun. morning worship) children? I'm not talking about making a "seeker sensitive" worship practice decision here, I'm talking about not accidentally alienating reasonably mature families who are looking for liturgical worship and expository preaching that simply have never thought of or practiced any kind of age integration (let alone *total* age integration) Sunday mornings. 

Frankly, it probably took most of you who espouse this view and hold this practice several years of reflection and study. It's hard to expect any different for many new families coming in to our church. Further, if your church is the U.S., most new families that come to your church will not understand the notion of total age integration. I suggest a mediating position and practice, not as a compromise, but as an option that still upholds the general thrust of Scripture in this area. I think we Reformed folk turn away more people than we recognize due to issues like this. Some will say "too bad". To those people I'm already seen as a compromiser anyways, so no sense in wasting keystrokes to convince you that some age segregation isn't unbiblical.

Along these lines and because I/we agree that *total* or even *majority* age segregation in the worship/body life of the church isn't the best way to nurture the overall spiritual development of families given to our care, we have attempted to provide a practice that nudges people toward greater consideration of family worship and practice. 

We have a nursery and children's church as an option for anyone who wants to utilize. No one is made to use them, but they are options. We do have a cry room available for parents to utilize should they decide to have their infant children with them in the service. Our "children's church" is actually for children 3-5 only and entails teaching the prayers we say in the regular liturgy, some catechism training, and a short sermon with drawing type lesson that bolsters the sermon- taught by members of the covenant community (I reject the notion that having brothers and sisters in Christ assist us in discipling our children in a Sunday School or CHildren's Church or Christian School setting is some kind of abdication of the Father's role to train his children, but that's another subject). Also, they are in the worship service until the mid point, so they are present for much of the liturgy and any baptism that occurs. At age 6 (first grade), the children are encouraged to be in the whole worship service with their families.

We as elders have worked diligently to provide a practice that helps families grow in Christ. Some total age integration people still say we are compromising in some way, others appreciate that we don't have "bouncers" or otherwise make them feel bad for having their small children in the service Sun. morning. There are far more people who visit who think we should have children's church for children up through 12 years old. So pastoring a flock in this area is a real challenge for sure. 

I would only say in humble conclusion that suggesting that children aren't under the word preached because they are not present for the Sunday sermon seems to imply that is all the exposure to the Word of God they receive. Children should be receiving exposure to the Word daily and multiple times on the Lord's Day, whether present for one sermon weekly or not. As the Family and the Church (and in our case, the school) work together, we will answer God's call to train our children in the Lord.

May God bless all the ministries represented by you all.


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## nasa30 (Sep 18, 2009)

> I usually find this discussion frustrating.


 I understand. Misconceptions abound in this discussion and that frustrates me as well.



> I appreciate the reaction to total age segregation in the church but fail to see how some segregation is unbiblical, as some will claim. The passion of some *Total *"age integration" people clings heavily to the supposedly iron-clad biblical argument that children were always present in worship services - as if there are multiple examples of corporate worship services in Scripture which give all the details about who was present for what and if there were allowable exceptions or reasons for doing something slightly different-I mean, there weren't children at the Last Supper...- ...anyways. Further, we see the elements of worship portrayed in Scripture, but lack explicit commands about much of what/when/how various elements should be in a service, etc.


 You are right, we do not have explicit details on how we are to worship which is why I am always puzzled that the "non-Total age integration" assume that the other side is so wrong. We who practice age integration see examples in scripture that do describe what worship was like and use that as an example. To be precise, there is no example of Childrens Church or Sunday School in scripture. I am NOT saying that a church that has SS is committing some sin, but where does that church get it example to do it that way?



> For a present example, we have had the joy and challenge of many new families from broadly evangelical backgrounds coming regularly. Most of them have never considered the notion of total age integration as described by some of the brethren here. *Should we inadvertently turn them away because we have no option for their young, untrained (to sit through Sun. morning worship) children? * *I'm not talking about making a "seeker sensitive" worship practice decision here, I'm talking about not accidentally alienating reasonably mature families who are looking for liturgical worship and expository preaching that simply have never thought of or practiced any kind of age integration (let alone total age integration) Sunday mornings*.


That is a good statement, but were does that leave you? Where do you draw the line at what to provide as to not turn away "reasonably mature families"?



> Further, if your church is the U.S., most new families that come to your church will not understand the notion of total age integration. I suggest a mediating position and practice, not as a compromise, but as an option that still upholds the general thrust of Scripture in this area.


What better way to teach than by living the example and not, "We don't do it this way, but let me tell you about how I believe you so do it."




> We have a nursery and children's church as an option for anyone who wants to utilize. No one is made to use them, but they are options. We do have a cry room available for parents to utilize should they decide to have their infant children with them in the service. Our "children's church" is actually for children 3-5 only and entails teaching the prayers we say in the regular liturgy, some catechism training, and a short sermon with drawing type lesson that bolsters the sermon- taught by members of the covenant community (I reject the notion that having brothers and sisters in Christ assist us in discipling our children in a Sunday School or Children's Church or Christian School setting is some kind of abdication of the Father's role to train his children, but that's another subject). Also, they are in the worship service until the mid point, so they are present for much of the liturgy and any baptism that occurs. *At age 6 (first grade), *the children are encouraged to be in the whole worship service with their families.


 How did you determine this "transition age"? 



> Children should be receiving exposure to the Word daily and multiple times on the Lord's Day, whether present for one sermon weekly or not.


  This should be a given regardless of how your church service is structured.


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## Zenas (Sep 18, 2009)

Didn't Jesus say not to hinder the little children, to let them come?


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## au5t1n (Sep 18, 2009)

My church has recently started including the children for the entire service. There is still a nursery for babies, but many families keep their babies with them anyway. What we used to do was send the children (3-6 yrs only) to a kids' class during the sermon only, but they would attend the rest of the service, just not the sermon. Now they attend the entire service and have a class afterwards, instead of during the sermon. I like this much better. 

The children have never been the least bit distracting to me during the service, unless you call singing hymns loudly off-pitch (and high-pitched!) distracting. I don't - I call it cute.


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## Reepicheep (Sep 18, 2009)

We chose 6 yrs old or first grade because this is when most of our children can read. Part of the "children's church' training is to read/learn the prayers and other parts of the liturgy. We have found teaching the children to participate along in the liturgy helps them with the attention span issues, etc. 

This has worked well with my three sons, the youngest is 6.


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## TrueConvert (Sep 18, 2009)

brianeschen said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.
> ...



Atrocious indeed.
Hey, how in the world do I "THANK" someone on here??? Several of you have been robbed of my thanks because I've been unable to discern how it's done. Is there a button hidden somewhere??? HELLLLLLLLP!!


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## nasa30 (Sep 18, 2009)

Reepicheep said:


> We chose 6 yrs old or first grade because this is when most of our children can read. Part of the "children's church' training is to read/learn the prayers and other parts of the liturgy. We have found teaching the children to participate along in the liturgy helps them with the attention span issues, etc.
> 
> This has worked well with my three sons, the youngest is 6.



Not to poke at every word, but....so the thinking is that you must be able to read to really "get anything" out of the service? I think this is a window into the difference in our thoughts on this.


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## au5t1n (Sep 18, 2009)

TrueConvert said:


> brianeschen said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...


Don't worry, you're not going crazy or blind or anything. You need at least 15 posts on here before you can thank, and then the button will appear at the bottom right with the others.

Now, once you get 15, you can come back and thank me for this.  Just kidding.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 01:38:39 EST-----



austinww said:


> My church has recently started including the children for the entire service. There is still a nursery for babies, but many families keep their babies with them anyway. What we used to do was send the children (3-6 yrs only) to a kids' class during the sermon only, but they would attend the rest of the service, just not the sermon. Now they attend the entire service and have a class afterwards, instead of during the sermon. I like this much better.



Note that the 3-6YO class was never mandatory for parents. The pastor always stressed that you may CHOOSE to send your 3-6YOs to the class during the sermon.


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## Zenas (Sep 18, 2009)

I can't wait to take my child to church that first Sunday and every Sunday thereafter.


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## Reepicheep (Sep 18, 2009)

No, that's not the thinking.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 01:46:55 EST-----



nasa30 said:


> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> > We chose 6 yrs old or first grade because this is when most of our children can read. Part of the "children's church' training is to read/learn the prayers and other parts of the liturgy. We have found teaching the children to participate along in the liturgy helps them with the attention span issues, etc.
> ...



No, this wouldn't be our thinking at all, but you are right, it may give a window in to *a* difference in our thoughts.

What a worshiper "gets out of" the service is never a question we ask. Worship is for God, not for us. He is the audience, not us. What did God get out of the service? is the real question. 

To be clear, it's fine to have children in the whole service. Go for it. For us, we have chosen to use half the morning worship service to focus on training children 3-5 to read and understand how they will participate in the larger corporate service shortly. I don't see this as a one size fits all practice/approach.


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## Knoxienne (Sep 18, 2009)

Herald said:


> Our sending church has age segregated classes, and they DO enforce it...



 No way would I ever put up with a church separating our family.


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## TrueConvert (Sep 18, 2009)

austinww said:


> TrueConvert said:
> 
> 
> > brianeschen said:
> ...



LOL. Ummmmmm, Thanks. Manual Thanks, that is. LOL


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## Megan Mozart (Sep 18, 2009)

I also have some strong opinions on this because I attend a family integrated church as well. 

We don't have any Sunday School at all, for any age. We have a cry room with the audio piped in, and a nursery for children 4 and under with the audio piped in. More often than, we usually don't have children in the nursery (our church has only 300-350 attendees). We have ushers but I don't think I have once seen in my five years of attendance any of them ask a parent take care of unruly children. That sounds so absurd to me. This is worship, consisting of small children, not a music performance. Parents are smart enough to know the line between disciplining in the sanctuary and being considerate of others. 

The main reason we practice family integrated worship is that we recognize the huge task that God has required of parents to preach the gospel to them daily. Given the statistics showing that almost all children of professing Christians are walking away from the faith in adulthood, it seems that Sunday School is causing parents to hand over their God given job to other people. I know it's possible to have Sunday school and be faithful in training your own children at the same time, but it most cases it looks like it reinforces parents to be lazy in this area.


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## nasa30 (Sep 18, 2009)

Reepicheep said:


> No, that's not the thinking.
> 
> -----Added 9/18/2009 at 01:46:55 EST-----
> 
> ...



Ok. That makes more sense because I thought the issue of what the worshiper "gets" was the point you were making. 


I am actually more interested in your thinking on the questions in my earlier post.


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## Scottish Lass (Sep 18, 2009)

My other problem with separating children from the sermon (or the whole worship service, depending on the church) is the necessity of also removing adults from worship to supervise/teach/train the children. I've worked in a nursery where the service was piped in. I never heard any of it because I was busy changing a diaper, feeding a snack, calming a child (who missed his parents!), etc. Is it not easier for parents to show their own children how to read a hymn or liturgy than for a couple of adults to teach a dozen?


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## Reepicheep (Sep 18, 2009)

As to where we get our example for Sunday School? 

As you probably know, the origin of Sunday Schools dates back to the late 1700's in England for the purpose of helping those who had no religious instruction, at least that's what I've read. I'm not saying Sunday School is a biblical mandate, nor do I think you are implying that I'm saying that. For us, Sunday School is just another opportunity to teach Scripture. We adamantly encourage multiple venues for teaching Scripture at home, church, and school. We do have quite a few families who are single parent or not able to teach Scripture in the home frequently, so SS helps them also. We have families who are total integrationists and they keep their kids with them in the "adult" SS class. No big deal to us. It's up to each family to decide.

As to your other question- Where do you draw the line at what to provide as to not turn away "reasonably mature families"?

This issue of how to incorporate children in the morning worship service is the only area we have wrestled with such a question because it is immediate and necessary to address on a weekly basis, so I honestly don't know how to answer beyond what I said already. 

Again, our position is still pretty extreme for most broadly evangelical folks and I am sure it still turns away people. In the end, we think it's a balanced position that honors the thrust of Scripture. There's a level at which each church must deal with it's context in determining such things. I certainly respect those who have different practices and/or disagree with what I have said here. May God grant us grace. We need it.


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## nasa30 (Sep 18, 2009)

> As you probably know, the origin of Sunday Schools dates back to the late 1700's in England for the purpose of helping those who had no religious instruction, at least that's what I've read.


Yes I agree to the history. I believe that is was a well intentioned movement for the purpose you stated that in the 20th century has become a substitute for discipleship of children from Christian parents.



> I'm not saying Sunday School is a biblical mandate, nor do I think you are implying that I'm saying that.


 Correct, I do not think you are saying that.



> No big deal to us. It's up to each family to decide


 That is not the majority feeling we FIC folks get from the other side. Mostly it is how wrong we are to do it this way.



> As to your other question- Where do you draw the line at what to provide as to not turn away "reasonably mature families"?
> 
> This issue of how to incorporate children in the morning worship service is the only area we have wrestled with such a question because it is immediate and necessary to address on a weekly basis, so I honestly don't know how to answer beyond what I said already.



This question was bigger than just family intergration and is standing very close to the cliff of "seeker friendly" and that would be troublesome for me. 
Too off topic for this thread, so I will not sidetrack it by more questions on it.

I appreciate your comments and grace shown to the "other" side.


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## Megan Mozart (Sep 18, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> My other problem with separating children from the sermon (or the whole worship service, depending on the church) *is the necessity of also removing adults from worship to supervise/teach/train the children. *I've worked in a nursery where the service was piped in. I never heard any of it because I was busy changing a diaper, feeding a snack, calming a child (who missed his parents!), etc. Is it not easier for parents to show their own children how to read a hymn or liturgy than for a couple of adults to teach a dozen?



this is such a good point that I hav e never even considered. To my knowledge, (please correct me when I'm wrong), there is no example in scripure of a permissable situation where an adult forgets their obligation to attend corporate worship in order to do another parent's God given job. This does not seem to click with Scripture to my understanding. Yes, it is not wrong to help young ones to walk in God's ways, in fact we ought to. But in situations like this where though it is possible to shepherd your child at home AND send them to SS, the latter does not support and affirm the former, but it enables parents to be lazy.


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## Knoxienne (Sep 18, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Obviously as a pastor of a family integrated church I have some pretty strong convictions about this.
> 
> Yes, I've been 'bounced' with my family at some churches when we have been visiting. I never lost my cool, but when I expressed the desire for my daughter to sit with us (this time she was 11) during worship the 'usher' called on his radio for reinforcements and I was told in no uncertain terms that during the worship hour none under the age of 16 were allowed in the service. They had 'age appropriate' services for them So, we went down the street to another church. I've experienced similar things at other churches as well.
> 
> ...



Exactly. And if churches do minister to the adults at all, it's usually to the women with a feminine-type theology. It's no wonder so many men hate going to church.


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## Vonnie Dee (Sep 18, 2009)

Megan Mozart said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> > My other problem with separating children from the sermon (or the whole worship service, depending on the church) *is the necessity of also removing adults from worship to supervise/teach/train the children. *I've worked in a nursery where the service was piped in. I never heard any of it because I was busy changing a diaper, feeding a snack, calming a child (who missed his parents!), etc. Is it not easier for parents to show their own children how to read a hymn or liturgy than for a couple of adults to teach a dozen?
> ...



I'm going to repeat my comment about the mother that was not in worship with her family for 8 years. Sitting in the cry room is not sitting with everyone else. Most children are not unruly after they are trained. However, a mother with children close in age may have one in training for years at a time. Again, I say they may have the illusion of worshipping together but really they are providing their own nursery service.


Parents that homeschool because they believe that is the only God approved education for their children often belong to co-ops, have music lessons, send thier minor children to community college to complete schooling. Yes they are not sending their children to public school but they are allowing people other than themselves to teach their children. I'm not saying let anyone off the street teach SS (I know that happens in some churches). However, I would like to think that it wouldn't happen in most Reformed churches.


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## Scottish Lass (Sep 18, 2009)

Vonnie Dee said:


> I'm going to repeat my comment about the mother that was not in worship with her family for 8 years. Sitting in the cry room is not sitting with everyone else. Most children are not unruly after they are trained. However, a mother with children close in age may have one in training for years at a time. Again, I say they may have the illusion of worshipping together but really they are providing their own nursery service.



I would agree, but since I've never seen this, it's difficult for me to comment. The integrated churches I have the most experience with have rocking chairs as the back aisle or the back row is designated as a training for families with young children. I don't think I've ever heard a sustained cry in either setting, nor a case where a mother has needed to leave for more than a few minutes.


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## Megan Mozart (Sep 18, 2009)

Vonnie Dee said:


> Megan Mozart said:
> 
> 
> > Scottish Lass said:
> ...



You're right about parents allowing others to teach their kids. Like I said, it's not that we should never teach kids that aren't our own. We should always strive to show others in the direction of knowing Jesus - children too. It's just when in churches where parents aren't doing their job of family worship, etc. that they don't take any responsibility *at all*, even when it's the duty God has given them, and they have their kids rely completely on the teachings of another that is problematic. Though I know it is not always the case for churches with SS. 

It's also a good point that moms also miss out sometimes when the church practices family-integrated worship similar to how SS teachers miss worship. 
That makes me realize that I need to remove the emphasis I put on SS/CC teachers leaving corporate worship in order to do their thing. The real issue is, I think, avoiding tacking on a parents' responsibility to the church. The trend in the churches that implement SS of recent years is that the parents relinquish 6+ times a week of family worship, teaching, etc (it was twice a day every day if you were a Puritan) so the church can teach them 1 day a week. Again, it's not that SS is all bad and it always means parents aren't doing their job, but I the fruits of it are testifying that it's not working (for the most part... the statistics are some overwhelming number, like 90% or something like that are falling away after high school), so I personally think that it needs to be avoided. Just my two cents. I will stop repeating myself. Sorry - that is my tendency, as you are all going to learn. 

I should also say... I don't have any children of my own. So, ... my view has a potential to be myopic.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 10:46:02 EST-----



Scottish Lass said:


> Vonnie Dee said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to repeat my comment about the mother that was not in worship with her family for 8 years. Sitting in the cry room is not sitting with everyone else. Most children are not unruly after they are trained. However, a mother with children close in age may have one in training for years at a time. Again, I say they may have the illusion of worshipping together but really they are providing their own nursery service.
> ...



I have to say that my experience is similar. But it may just appear that way to me because I am not a mom and I'm not really paying attention to that stuff.


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## HokieAirman (Sep 18, 2009)

I tend to research the churches I visit beforehand, so, as an adult, I've not stumbled into any churches that absolutely will not accept our children. There are places where we're politely reminded that there's a nursery for our 2 year old, but whether they're meant as requests vs suggestions, we generally treat them as suggestions and politely refuse.

My last church in NoCal was family integrated with no choice and we really did enjoy hearing the 'background noise'...a nice reminder that we weren't alone. One time, my young two year old (he was 1 at the time) while busy with his toy, heard that pastor say, 'dinosaurs'; a word he had just learned. He stood up in his chair and proceeded to GROWL...his word for dinosaur. 

There were certainly times when a cry room would have been nice, but please don't put tons of toys in the cry room! It should be reserved for discipline and nursing mothers...what's the point in rewarding an unruly child with playtime????

You never know when your child is paying attention, or what he's gathering from the service. We still have times where we need to take our son out for a few minutes, but he's reaching the age where we will require him to pay attention more and, as a previous poster mentioned, ask him to draw pictures and explain afterward what he gathered from the sermon.

As a postscript, the story about the northern california church with a coffee shop and the crossed out baby sign is true.


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## Sonoftheday (Sep 19, 2009)

In one of my pastor's sermons he preached on why we dont have children's church. He also preached about the God ordained child discipline method of spanking. Had a wonderful quote for any of us who might have trouble controlling our children in the worship service.

He said "My office is down the hall on the left. If your child is being unruly and disobedient you have permission to take them out of this service and into my office and whoop their backside to the Glory of God." To which all the parents said a hardy "AMEN"


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## carlgobelman (Oct 13, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.



I used to be a member at the parent Harvest Bible Chapel (James MacDonald) in Rolling Meadows, IL. While there I was a head usher at their 9:00 Sunday service, and we were instructed to direct parents of children 5th grade and under to take their children to the children's ministry desk; for much the same reason cited in your OP (young children causing distractions by crying, etc.). There was a section of seating in the auditorium (way in the back) for families with nursing children. Again we were instructed to encourage parents with crying children to take their children out of the worship center until they quieted down.

At the time, it made sense to me, but in retrospect you're right, it is an abominable practice. One of the things that ticks me off with our current church is they have this thing called "student-led Bible study" every other week. Half way through the service high school and junior high students leave the service to go to the student-led Bible study. As you would expect, being led by students (who themselves are not 'apt to teach') the Bible study isn't very fruitful (I notice one of the elders with children in this age group doesn't let his children participate, nice leadership by example).


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## Amazing Grace (Oct 13, 2009)

My wish would be to have some of the parents leave the worship service and leave the kids. Too many potted plants in the pews looking like death warmed over. If Christ forbade the disciples from stopping the children, who am I to do it?
I also do not believe the Spirit is impotent when kids are noisy and a tad disruptive.


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