# Public vs. Private



## Notthemama1984 (Dec 6, 2008)

I just listened to a sermon where the pastor used Psalm 87:2 as a verse to say that God prefers public corporate worship vs. private worship.

I am not buying into his arguments.

gates of Zion=church

dwelling place of Judah=personal home.


What do you think? Am I missing something or is the pastor?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 6, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f121/what-does-term-zion-mean-christians-38545/

J.I. Packer, _The Puritan Approach to Worship_:



> The Spheres of Worship
> 
> There are, said the Puritans, three spheres of Christian worship: public, in the local church; domestic, in the family circle; private, in the closet. Of these three, public worship is the most important. David Clarkson was entirely typical when, preaching on Psalm 87:2 under the title "Public worship to be preferred before private,'" he argued from Scripture that "the Lord is more glorified by public worship," `"there is more of the Lord's presence in public worship," "here are the clearest manifestations of God'," "there is more spiritual advantage to be got in the use of public ordinances," and "public worship is more edifying."[21] Strikingly, yet characteristically (for many others made the same point), he reminds us that public worship is "the nearest resemblance of heaven that earth knows: for in heaven, so far as the Scripture describes it to us...all the worship of that glorious company is public....They make one glorious congregation and so jointly together sing the praises of him that sits on the throne, and the praises of the Lamb, and continue employed in this public worship to eternity."[22] Similarly, Swinnock insists that on the Lord's Day church must come first, and everything else be built round it. "Esteem the public ordinances the chief work of the day, and let thy secret and private duties be so managed that thy soul may be prepared for them, and profited by them."[23]
> 
> ...



You can read David Clarkson's famous sermons _Public Worship to be Preferred to Private_ (on Ps. 87.2) online here.


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## PastorSBC (Dec 6, 2008)

in my opinion it is a huge stretch. 

Public worship is important, but to claim from this text it is more important to God is reading into the text.


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## Jon Lake (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't thank there is an either or! Paul tells us to pray and give thanks at all times. When a man kneels at his bed to pray, I think God is pleased. I WILL concede there is something special about corporate worship, Messiah said where or more gather in my name I am there among you. I have a problem saying one is "better"! Both are expected both should be done.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 6, 2008)

PastorSBC said:


> in my opinion it is a huge stretch.
> 
> Public worship is important, but to claim from this text it is more important to God is reading into the text.



This is the way I am leaning.

Both publich and family worship is important. I would even venture to say equally important. They both serve a God willed purpose.

I looked up Calvin and he does not talk about public vs. private worship, but rather God's loving election.

Henry follows the same line as the original post.


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## Jon Lake (Dec 6, 2008)

Chaplainintraining said:


> PastorSBC said:
> 
> 
> > in my opinion it is a huge stretch.
> ...


Big


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 6, 2008)

Well, apparently I'm "alone in my principles"  but here are some more comments for consideration.

John Gill (Baptist) on Ps. 87.2:



> Ver. 2. The Lord loveth the gates of Zion,.... Which the Targum interprets of the schools, as preferable to the synagogues: the Lord loves Zion herself; that is, the church, and therefore has chosen it for his habitation, took up his rest and residence in it, has founded it, and set Christ as King over it, and by whom he has redeemed it; and he loves her gates, the public ordinances; he loves them that come to Zion's gates, and wait and worship there, and who enter in and become members thereof; and he loves what is done there, he being there publicly prayed unto, and publicly praised by a large number of his people; where his word is faithfully preached, and reverently attended to, and his ordinances truly administered, and the graces of his saints exercised on him: wherefore, because all this is done socially, and in a public manner, and so much for his own manifestative glory, he esteems these
> 
> more than all the dwellings of Jacob; the private habitations of his people; yet he has a regard to these, the bounds of which he fixed from eternity, and where he was delighting himself before they were in being; and he loves the persons that dwell in them, and what is done there in a right manner, as closet and family worship; but when these are put in competition with public worship, the latter is preferred unto them, because done by more, and more publicly; Zion and its gates, the church and its ordinances, are preferable to all the dwellings of Jacob put together.



Matthew Henry (Presbyterian) on Ps. 87.2:



> 2. That God had expressed a particular affection for it (v. 2): The Lord loveth the gates of Zion, of the temple, of the houses of doctrine (so the Chaldee), more than all the dwellings of Jacob, whether in Jerusalem or any where else in the country. God had said concerning Zion, This is my rest for ever; here will I dwell. There he met his people, and conversed with them, received their homage, and showed them the tokens of his favour, and therefore we may conclude how well he loves those gates. Note, (1.) God has a love for the dwellings of Jacob, has a gracious regard to religious families and accepts their family-worship. (2.) Yet he loves the gates of Zion better, not only better than any, but better than all, of the dwellings of Jacob. God was worshipped in the dwellings of Jacob, and family-worship is family-duty, which must by no means be neglected; yet, when they come in competition, public worship (cæteris paribus—other things being equal) is to be preferred before private.



Matthew Poole (Presbyterian) on Ps. 87.2:



> Ps 87:2. The gates, i.e. the city gates, being oft put for cities, as Deut 15:7; Deut 16:5; Ps 9:14. Of Zion; largely so called, as was now said, to wit, of Jerusalem, which was built upon and near Mount Zion. He saith Zion rather than Jerusalem, to intimate that he loved Jerusalem for Zion's sake, or for the temple, which is oft said to be in Zion; which place he loved and chose for his peculiar dwellingplace. More than all the dwellings of Jacob; more than all other places of the land of Canaan in which the Israelites dwelt. For although the tabernacle was for a season in some other parts of the land, yet the temple, the place of God's fixed residence, was no where but in this city.



Charles Spurgeon (Baptist) on Ps. 87.2:



> Verse 2. The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. The gates are put for the city itself. The love of God is greatest to his own elect nation, descended from his servant Jacob, yet the central seat of his worship is dearer still; no other supposable comparison could have so fully displayed the favour which Jehovah bore to Jerusalem,—he loves Jacob best and Zion better than the best. At this hour the mystical teaching of these words is plain, God delights in the prayers and praises of Christian families and individuals, but he has a special eye to the assemblies of the faithful, and he has a special delight in their devotions in their church capacity. The great festivals, when the crowds surrounded the temple gates, were fair in the Lord's eyes, and even such is the general assembly and church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven. This should lead each separate believer to identify himself with the church of God; where the Lord reveals his love the most, there should each believer most delight to be found. Our own dwellings are very dear to us, but we must not prefer them to the assemblies of the saints; we must say of the church—
> 
> "Here my best friends, my kindred dwell:
> Here God, my Saviour reigns."



William Gurnall (Presbyterian), _The Christian in Complete Armour_, Vol. 2, pp. 394-395:



> (4.) Because of the great delight he takes in the joint prayers and praises of his people. We need not detract from the excellency of private devotions, to magnify the public prayers of the church. Both are necessary, and highly pleasing to God. Yet it is no wrong to the private devotions of a particular saint, to give the precedency to the public prayers of the church. God himself tells us he "loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob," Ps 87:2. No doubt the prayers which the faithful put up to heaven from under their private roofs were very acceptable unto him; but, if a saint's single voice in prayer be so sweet to God's ear, much more the church choir—his saints' prayers in consort together. A father is glad to see any one of his children, and makes him welcome when he visits him, but much more when they come together: the greatest feast is when they all meet at his house. The public praises of the church are the emblem of heaven itself, where all the angels and saints make but one consort. There is a wonderful prevalency in the joint prayers of his people. When Peter was in prison, the church meets and prays him out of his enemies' hands. A prince will grant a petition subscribed by the hands of a whole city, which may be he would not at the request of a private subject, and yet love him well too. There is an especial promise to public prayer, Matt 18:20: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Non dicit ero, non enim tardat vel cunctatur, sed sum jam illic, invenior præsens gratia et favore singulari, eo quod summopere me delectet hujusmodi concordia—he doth not say, I will, for he makes no delay or demur upon the business: but I am there—let them come as soon as they will—present by my special favour and grace, because this concord in prayer highly pleaseth me.



George Horne (Anglican) on Ps. 87.2:



> As the dwellings of Jacob in the promised land were beloved by him more than the dwellings of other nations, so he "loved the gates of Sion mor than the dwellings of Jacob." Jerusalem was exalted and fortified by its situation; but much more so by the protection of the Almighty. What Jerusalem was, the Christian church is; "built" by God "on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone; in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple o the Lord." Ephes. ii.20. It is "his foundation in the holy mountains;" she is beloved of God above the kingdoms and empires of the earth, which rise and fall only to fulfil the divine counsels concerning her.



Henry Ainsworth (Independent) on Ps. 87.2:



> GATES OF ZION.] The public assemblies of the people. See the notes on Ps. ix.15.



Robert Hall (Anglican), quoted by Charles Spurgeon in _Treasury of David_:



> The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all, etc. It is here assumed that the Lord loves the dwellings of Jacob—he loves those that are true Israelites. These are succeeded by the name Christian, for the Christian Church is now become the true Israel of God. He loves his saints on account of that image of himself which they bear; he loves them on account of those graces which are infused into them when they are renewed by the Spirit; he loves them on account of the relation they stand in to him as his people, and as his church, who are qualified for the duties of the relation by that love of their Father, that reliance upon his care, that delight in his person, that enjoyment in his service, which belongs to dutiful and affectionate children. He loves them because they imitate his perfections in some humble measure—because they receive the word of his mouth—because they are ready to obey every call of his providence, setting themselves in the paths of his testimony wherever he may direct—because they yield themselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and their bodies as instruments of righteousness, no longer walking after the deeds of the flesh, but after the will of God. He takes a delight in them; the Lord delighteth in the righteous; he knoweth their way; he loves, approves, and confirms them. The most common occupations of life—the honest industry of the servants of God, is looked upon by him with approbation. By these they show forth their Father, and the praises of him who called them from darkness to light. The most ordinary duties of our calling become sacrifices to God, and religious duties, when performed in the Spirit, and directed to the great end of glorifying God. He looks with peculiar complacency on the dwellings of his people on account of those domestic devotional acknowledgments of his majesty which are there maintained, when the head walks before his family as a priest to offer praise and thanksgiving; this attracts peculiar approbation and delight. He loves to see his people training up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and their children walking after them in the paths of that obedience which he has enjoined. He delights to see the course of purity which runs in Christian families. He loves to see the progress which the younger parts of religious families make in piety, while they grow in grace, and in favour with God and man. He looks down with peculiar delight on such circles as these: there he deigns his presence, and bestows peculiar blessings. However obscure the dwellings of Jacob may be, to him they are open and manifest at all times; and whether in cottages or in palaces, his eye rests there with complacency; and he says of such places, "Here will I dwell forever and ever." Prayer and devotion sanctify every family, and diffuse a spirit of piety through all the avocations of life, so that we need not retire from the world, but are rather called to show forth the virtues of the Christian life in it. But it is said, that, although "he loves the dwellings of Jacob", yet "he loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob"—that nothing in the dwellings of Jacob so much attracts his attention as the people of God connected together in a spiritual capacity.
> 
> 1. In the first place, the Divine Being regards with peculiar complacency the worship of his saints on its own account.
> 
> ...



Andrew Bonar (Presbyterian), sermon on _Meeting as a Congregation_ preached September 1, 1889:



> In the Songs of Zion, special honour is accorded to those meetings of the saints: "The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob" (Psa. 87. 2). The public assembly of His people on Mount Zion God loved more than all other gatherings, because this was a loud proclamation of His name; all the more because these gathered ones met with their eye on the altar and the atoning sacrifice.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 6, 2008)

Wow, it seems that I am in the minority here.

Thanks Andrew


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 6, 2008)

Well, as I argue in RRC, there's a strong case to be made from Scripture and the confession (defined broadly and narrowly) that, in Reformed theology, the public "means of grace" (the "due use of the ordinary means") are more important than the private. 

We know precious little about God's clearly revealed requirements for _private_ piety. What we have are clearly revealed requirements, in the typological revelation about attending to the divinely appointed feasts and other corporate cultic (religious) gatherings. Those were public worship services. 

In the 18th and 19th centuries, however, the relation between the public and the private became reversed under the influence of pietism. In confessional Reformed theology, piety, and practice, the private, as important as it be, is secondary to the public. It is through the public reading and preaching of the Gospel that the God has promised to bring his people to faith (Rom 10; HC 65; WSC 88). The holy sacraments are administered in public services. People are disciplined (or ought to be) for failing to attend to the public means of grace. 

Nevertheless, often times, in my experience (not so much in the last 7-8 years), during elder visits, the first thing they ask about is private, not public piety. When I advocate for two services people sometimes respond by upping the ante by asking, "Why not three services?" There are replies to that question from the RPW and Christian liberty but we could turn that question around regarding private devotions/acts of piety. How often? How long? Who judges? On what basis? I'm much more comfortable disciplining someone for absenting himself from the public means of grace than I am for failing to meet someone's arbitrary rule of private devotion.

Remember, universal literacy is relatively new. Universal bible ownership is relatively new. That doesn't mean that people couldn't have recited passages or even whole books from memory but it means that, for much of world history, God's people could not have had "devotions" in the way that we think of them.


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## he beholds (Dec 6, 2008)

Andrew, 
Thanks for all of those quotes! Reading about God's affection for the church makes me yearn to feel that way myself, and has shown me that I don't have a right affection. 
I especially appreciate these:


> ...that he loved Jerusalem for Zion's sake, or for the temple, which is oft said to be in Zion; which place he loved and chose for his peculiar dwellingplace. More than all the dwellings of Jacob; more than all other places of the land of Canaan in which the Israelites dwelt.



and



> This should lead each separate believer to identify himself with the church of God; where the Lord reveals his love the most, there should each believer most delight to be found. Our own dwellings are very dear to us, but we must not prefer them to the assemblies of the saints; we must say of the church—
> 
> "Here my best friends, my kindred dwell:
> Here God, my Saviour reigns."



I guess a related question that I have is, Is it true that when the Psalms use Jacob and Israel as parallelism, they do so to stress that God loves us personally and corporately?
For instance, 
from Psalm 135:4 "For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself,
Israel as his own possession."

Dr. Clark reminded me of another question we have. We were recently wondering where the idea of family worship comes from in the Bible. We know that reading and worshipping God alone, together, or corporately is good, and we do try to practice all three, but we see such an emphasis on family worship in our covenant theological circles. Is that a tradition that we do b/c it is a good thing, or because it is a necessary thing?
Thanks!

Sorry, for suchquestions


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## Prufrock (Dec 6, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Well, apparently I'm "alone in my principles"  but here are some more comments for consideration.



Not alone. Thanks for the quotes.

As some (you?) posted in another thread from Calvin arguing that Worship precedes ethics, I think there is an analogy here: the Public Worship of God, with its means of grace, is that which drives our family and private worship. There certainly is, at least, a logical priority.


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## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2008)

I preached on why worship is to be desired and not neglected a few weeks ago and that was one of my points (Because Public worship is so much better than private worship).

Yet, our culture thinks the opposite. Downgrading of the Lord's Day. 'Devotionals', etc. (List goes on)...

It should be more meaningful and important (means of grace) to be in public worship because you get to hear Jesus Christ speak (through preaching/reading of Word) because you are amongst the body of Christ, spiritually present before the throne of God, as a shadow (is shadow a correct word?) of all eternity when we will worship as the body of Christ with all the myriads of angels....

What is a picture of eternity, private worship (by yourself) or public worship????


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 6, 2008)

he beholds said:


> Andrew,
> Thanks for all of those quotes! Reading about God's affection for the church makes me yearn to feel that way myself, and has shown me that I don't have a right affection.
> I especially appreciate these:
> 
> ...



You're welcome! That is an interesting question. I see the distinction between personal and corporate (or rather, family and public) very clearly in Ps. 87.2, but not so much in Ps. 135.4. There I see the synonymous Hebrew parallelism of Jacob = Israel, to be his own = his treasured possession, which reinforces the concept being iterated, ie., as in "Shew me thy ways, O Lord; Teach me thy paths" (Ps. 25.4) or "Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices" (Prov. 1.31).

Jer. 31.7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for *Jacob*, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of *Israel*.
Jer. 31.10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered *Israel* will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer. 31.11 For the LORD hath redeemed *Jacob*, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 

But I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on this matter, because it is an intriguing thought, and I can't say that I have studied it in-depth.



> Dr. Clark reminded me of another question we have. We were recently wondering where the idea of family worship comes from in the Bible. We know that reading and worshipping God alone, together, or corporately is good, and we do try to practice all three, but we see such an emphasis on family worship in our covenant theological circles. Is that a tradition that we do b/c it is a good thing, or because it is a necessary thing?
> Thanks!
> 
> Sorry, for suchquestions



Family worship is one of those duties, as J.W. Alexander says, that permeates all of Scripture, and its force as such is derived by good and necessary consequence, and by example. 

In my own experience, as I observe Reformed churches today, it is a much-neglected aspect of worship, and that is why I try to reinforce it here on the PB as often as I can. You can find a number of threads and resources that I have compiled and contributed in a recent post here.

Also see this quote I posted last night:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f32/exhortation-family-religion-thomas-gouge-40943/

As for the Scriptural basis for it (which is covered in the many books on family worship cited in the link, notably, George Hammond, _The Case for Family Worship_, and J.W. Alexander, _Thoughts on Family Worship_), here are some verses to bear in mind (this is just a sampling, more can be adduced, and a careful analysis of the pattern of family worship will begin with Adam and Eve):

Gen. 18.19 For I know him [Abraham], that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Deut. 6.6-7 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Joshua 24.15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1 Sam. 20.6 If thy father at all miss me, then say, David earnestly asked leave of me that he might run to Bethlehem his city: for there is a yearly sacrifice there for all the family. 

2 Sam. 18.20a Then David returned to bless his household. 

Job. 1.5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Jer. 31.1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. 

Jer. 10.25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Zech. 12.12-14 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Acts 10.2 A devout man [Cornelius], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 

1 Pet 3.7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. 

The Christian Family


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## JoeRe4mer (Dec 14, 2008)

Given the excessive individualist spirit of the Church today it not surprising that such an interpretation would cause controversy. I heard something like that at an RB seminar over two years ago and was fine with it. The bigger question is whether you think the scriptures give a _greater_ priority to the communal gathering of the saints than to the private devotional times of individuals.


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