# SBC Exodus Mandate



## BG

Voddie Baucham and Bruce Shortt are at it again.

Voddie Baucham Ministries John Wesley on Education


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## LawrenceU

Go Voddie, Go!

I think the Exodus movement is right on track.

There, that out to stir the pot.


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## SolaScriptura

Most of the Christians I know send their kids to public schools. Most of the Christians I know are unbelievably nearsighted. 

They are so enmeshed with American culture that something seems almost cultish if it is out of the cultural norm... They site ridiculous things like the "illustration" of a corn stalk that is raised doors, if later replanted outside it will not survive, as supposed proof of how homeschooling doesn't prepare kids for life in the real world, etc...


And this is why the vast majority of evangelicals I know send their kids to public schools: they're modern Americans, first and foremost.

I'm not talking about people who for some reason have circumstances which make any other option excessively burdensome, I'm talking about people who just blindly go with the culture and look with suspicion on those who don't.


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## Happy2BHome

Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system. 

R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. *On the contrary, they are evidences of their success."* 

**quote from Bruce Shortt's book, _The Harsh Truth About Public Schools_

They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.


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## BG

SolaScriptura said:


> Most of the Christians I know send their kids to public schools. Most of the Christians I know are unbelievably nearsighted.
> 
> They are so enmeshed with American culture that something seems almost cultish if it is out of the cultural norm... They site ridiculous things like the "illustration" of a corn stalk that is raised doors, if later replanted outside it will not survive, as supposed proof of how homeschooling doesn't prepare kids for life in the real world, etc...
> 
> 
> And this is why the vast majority of evangelicals I know send their kids to public schools: they're modern Americans, first and foremost.
> 
> I'm not talking about people who for some reason have circumstances which make any other option excessively burdensome, I'm talking about people who just blindly go with the culture and look with suspicion on those who don't.




You have hit the nail on the head. It reminds me of the old question, "Does a fish know that he is wet?" I have a lot of friends that are in the same boat. They have no idea what is going on. The sad part is I don't know how many times I have seen these very same people broken hearted that their children have gone astray and even then they don't understand that they were part of the problem. I guess I should clarify that I am not picking on these people, often they are people that I dearly love. I do not believe in kicking people while they are down, but loving them.


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## BG

Happy2BHome said:


> Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system.
> 
> R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. *On the contrary, they are evidences of their success."*
> 
> **quote from Bruce Shortt's book, _The Harsh Truth About Public Schools_
> 
> They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.





I wondered why that book was not on my bookshelf, dear.


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## Knoxienne

Happy2BHome said:


> Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system.
> 
> R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. *On the contrary, they are evidences of their success."*
> 
> **quote from Bruce Shortt's book, _The Harsh Truth About Public Schools_
> 
> They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.



Another Rushdoony fan!  We are silver subscribers to his mp3 messages on Chalcedon. They are such a blessing.


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## Grace Alone

I am just frustrated that there are not more schools sponsored by reformed churches. The only Christian school we have here that goes through 12th grade is supposedly non-denominational, but it is at a pentecostal church and the principal goes to a charismatic church. It has other weaknesses as well. The public schools are not an option because we already tried that with the older two and learned that it was not a good idea. So the youngest goes to a charter school that was started by Christians, and it at least has discipline, a dress code, good academics, and many Christians on staff. I am sorry to say that it is a better school than the local Christian school.


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## Pilgrim

Grace Alone said:


> I am just frustrated that there are not more schools sponsored by reformed churches. The only Christian school we have here that goes through 12th grade is supposedly non-denominational, but it is at a pentecostal church and the principal goes to a charismatic church. It has other weaknesses as well. The public schools are not an option because we already tried that with the older two and learned that it was not a good idea. So the youngest goes to a charter school that was started by Christians, and it at least has discipline, a dress code, good academics, and many Christians on staff. I am sorry to say that it is a better school than the local Christian school.



Some of it is due to the mentality described by Ben and others above and the failure of churches to step up to the plate. But many who favor homeschool (I don't know the %) are against Christian schools almost as much as they are against public schools due to opposition to age segregation and in my opinion a misapplication of Deuteronomy 6.


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## Pergamum

AMEN....

Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!

My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.


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## Brian Withnell

SolaScriptura said:


> Most of the Christians I know send their kids to public schools. Most of the Christians I know are unbelievably nearsighted.
> 
> They are so enmeshed with American culture that something seems almost cultish if it is out of the cultural norm... They site ridiculous things like the "illustration" of a corn stalk that is raised doors, if later replanted outside it will not survive, as supposed proof of how homeschooling doesn't prepare kids for life in the real world, etc...
> 
> 
> And this is why the vast majority of evangelicals I know send their kids to public schools: they're modern Americans, first and foremost.
> 
> I'm not talking about people who for some reason have circumstances which make any other option excessively burdensome, I'm talking about people who just blindly go with the culture and look with suspicion on those who don't.



My only caveat to this is that there are some who have precious little choice (all to the discredit of the church).

When my first wife died, I was well off enough that I could send my children to a private Christian school ... the salary I earned was substantial, and while we did have some life insurance, I was somewhat in debt from three and a half years of cancer treatments that were not all covered by insurance (even 20% of $1 million dollars is a lot of money). The bills were paid, and my children went to a Christian school.

If I had not been as well employed, they would have had to go to public schools. There are women that home schooled their children but then as widows have little to no income. With little to put on the table, and *inexpensive* Christian schools costing $5000 to $6000 dollars a year, it could easily become impossible for a woman to do anything other than send her children to public school.

In my instance, God provided another helper suitable for this widower. Jean even today home schools my 16 year-old son while watching the younger two. (She is a woman worthy of praise in many ways ... I am twice blessed by God!)

Not all in this life have such a blessed providence (from our "under the sun" point of view). For them, I cry out ... have mercy on the widow and orphan. Do not neglect them.


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## rjlynam




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## the particular baptist

I thank God for raising up men like Voddie. He was instrumental in our decision to educate our children at home.


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## Happy2BHome

Brian Withnell said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the Christians I know send their kids to public schools. Most of the Christians I know are unbelievably nearsighted.
> 
> They are so enmeshed with American culture that something seems almost cultish if it is out of the cultural norm... They site ridiculous things like the "illustration" of a corn stalk that is raised doors, if later replanted outside it will not survive, as supposed proof of how homeschooling doesn't prepare kids for life in the real world, etc...
> 
> 
> And this is why the vast majority of evangelicals I know send their kids to public schools: they're modern Americans, first and foremost.
> 
> I'm not talking about people who for some reason have circumstances which make any other option excessively burdensome, I'm talking about people who just blindly go with the culture and look with suspicion on those who don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only caveat to this is that there are some who have precious little choice (all to the discredit of the church).
> 
> When my first wife died, I was well off enough that I could send my children to a private Christian school ... the salary I earned was substantial, and while we did have some life insurance, I was somewhat in debt from three and a half years of cancer treatments that were not all covered by insurance (even 20% of $1 million dollars is a lot of money). The bills were paid, and my children went to a Christian school.
> 
> If I had not been as well employed, they would have had to go to public schools. There are women that home schooled their children but then as widows have little to no income. With little to put on the table, and *inexpensive* Christian schools costing $5000 to $6000 dollars a year, it could easily become impossible for a woman to do anything other than send her children to public school.
> 
> In my instance, God provided another helper suitable for this widower. Jean even today home schools my 16 year-old son while watching the younger two. (She is a woman worthy of praise in many ways ... I am twice blessed by God!)
> 
> Not all in this life have such a blessed providence (from our "under the sun" point of view). For them, I cry out ... have mercy on the widow and orphan. Do not neglect them.
Click to expand...


in my opinion it is high time that churches step up and start helping families, whether it is single moms or dads, "true religion is to take care of widows and orphans." One example of those who could help out are the elderly in our churches, unfortunately most of the baby boomers think that it is their God given right to spend their golden years running out the clock on a golf course or in their RV. They could be spending their time enjoying the blessings of serving the body of Christ by coming alongside these parents and helping disciple these children.


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## calgal

A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?


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## the particular baptist

calgal said:


> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches?



I have close friends that are public school (high school) teachers and still educate their children at home.


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## TaylorOtwell

_“I can see little consistency in a type of Christian activity which preaches the gospel on the street corners and at the ends of the earth but neglects the children of the covenant by abandoning them to a cold and unbelieving secularism.”_ - Machen


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## JohnGill

PactumServa72 said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have close friends that are public school (high school) teachers and still educate their children at home.
Click to expand...


For some reason that post struck me as funny. It made me think of a Ford dealership owner who drives a Chevrolet.

Question I've heard asked by some people at church who would like to homeschool their kids but don't have the time, What church resources can help with this? How do we get the church as a group to help those who would like to, but cannot due to financial obligations? I was thinking along the lines of a "Reformation Club", but instead a "Homeschooler's Club", where those who can help out those who can't. Anybody know of any organizations or resources like this?


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## Hamalas

calgal said:


> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?



Actually, there have been several studies proving that the level of education the parents received had little to no effect on how well the children do. There are many cases where a woman with no more than a high-school degree had better educated children than a couple with several PhD degrees between them! Basically, the success of children in school is related to the amount of time and energy put into it by the parents.  

Also, as regards the public school workers. As much as I loved being homeschooled, homeschooling is not for everyone. I plan on doing it with my kids, but some people don't have the resources necessary. A large scale exodus from public schools would require the creation of many new private Christian schools. Why not invite those teachers who are qualified to teach at the Christian schools?


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## LawrenceU

calgal said:


> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?



Ben already addressed this, but I'd like to add some to it. It is a mistake to think that you must be an academic to be a good home educator. I know families in which both parents are high school drop outs that have educated children at home that now are in very high level post graduate programs. I also know of several other families in which the parents are only marginally 'educated' and have done phenomenal jobs home schooling their children. It is also wrong to see that the goal of home education is to create scholars. It is not. The primary goal is to create solid disciples of Jesus Christ. The secondary goal is academics. And, it should also be noted that not every child is equipped to be a scholar. Some are more gifted toward trades. The public school system fails these children almost completely.

Add to this that the vast majority of modern education, both public and private, is geared toward teaching children facts rather than teaching them to learn. This is woefully evident in the universities of our nation. That trend of education style has been adopted by most universities as well. In universities where critical thinking and rhetorical skills are demanded is a severe wake up call for most students. My father can tell you story after story of people who were honors students from respected secondary schools who upon entering college were unable to form and articulate logical reason in writing. I remember when I was a tutor in the writing lab while in college that one of my students was a Senior business major. He had been an honours student in high school and carried a 3.97 GPA to that point in college. He was taking a sophomore level rhetoric course that was a graduation requirement for all students. (He had somehow not been enrolled in the class at the proper time in his studies.) He was failing the class. He was unable to put together a cogent paragraph. His grammar was flawless. His reasoning was atrocious. He admitted one day that he had never had to do any writing during his entire education from 10th grade until that moment. Every test he had taken was a Scantron.

He was not the only case that was in that boat either.


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## Skyler

The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.

However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.


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## Leslie

There are Christian homeschool curricula on CD's. Switched-on-Schoolhouse starts at grade 3 (or at least it did when I bought the CD's). There are on-line Christian high schools. Obviously, CD's and on-line education are not ideal, but they are far better than losing one's children to secular humanism. Even a full-time employed parent can put in 2 hours daily on weekdays to supervise such a program.


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## JohnGill

Leslie said:


> There are Christian homeschool curricula on CD's. Switched-on-Schoolhouse starts at grade 3 (or at least it did when I bought the CD's). There are on-line Christian high schools. Obviously, CD's and on-line education are not ideal, but they are far better than losing one's children to secular humanism. Even a full-time employed parent can put in 2 hours daily on weekdays to supervise such a program.



Sounds like a perfect way for other church families to help out as well.


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## LawrenceU

Skyler said:


> The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.
> 
> However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.



That may have been your case, but it is not the case of any homeschooled children that I know, save one family that hold to a very strange mixture of anabaptist and messianic Christianity and have chosen to be reclusive. And, I know a LOT. They are the most socially well adjusted children and young adults that I have ever seen. The relate very well to others of all ages. That is more advantageous than being lumped into a room of age peers and learning to only relate to them.


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## CDM

LawrenceU said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.
> 
> However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been your case, but it is not the case of any homeschooled children that I know, save one family that hold to a very strange mixture of anabaptist and messianic Christianity and have chosen to be reclusive. And, I know a LOT. They are the most socially well adjusted children and young adults that I have ever seen. The relate very well to others of all ages. That is more advantageous than being lumped into a room of age peers and learning to only relate to them.
Click to expand...


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## Knoxienne

LawrenceU said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.
> 
> However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been your case, but it is not the case of any homeschooled children that I know, save one family that hold to a very strange mixture of anabaptist and messianic Christianity and have chosen to be reclusive. And, I know a LOT. They are the most socially well adjusted children and young adults that I have ever seen. The relate very well to others of all ages. That is more advantageous than being lumped into a room of age peers and learning to only relate to them.
Click to expand...


 My "Thank you" button is gone thanks to all these great posts lately!


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## Classical Presbyterian

calgal said:


> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?



I have to walk a tight line on this one. As a pastor of a mainline congregation, we have several teachers in the congregation from the local school district and almost all of our families are in local public schools. Yet, my family has decided to use our home as our childrens' school. We are using the Pennsylvania state-approved curriculum K-12, but we did pull our daughter out of the local school.

I have to be honest in my interactions with others in the church: I am a strong advocate of the home school, yet there are most parents in the congregation that are either not ready to hear this or are unable to do so. So, imperfect as it is, I take the goal of humble, respectful modeling of how we can choose to depart from the culture's expected model of how children are to be raised.

Being prideful or argumentative, or choosing to lecture other families on this sensitive issue does not seem to be fruitful to me. I take the path of example and let people ask me when they are curious as to why my household has chosen to be strange.


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## the particular baptist

LawrenceU said:


> It is also wrong to see that the goal of home education is to create scholars. It is not. The primary goal is to create solid disciples of Jesus Christ. The secondary goal is academics.


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## BG

I know with our children, we have the opposite problem with socialization. Ours tend to be overly friendly. I have to keep reminding them sometime they shouldn't talk to strangers. However, I do know some families, dispensationalist, who believe that God has called them to hide out in a hole, hold hands, and sing the old Tim McGraw song, "Don't take the... Mark"


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Happy2BHome said:


> Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system.
> 
> R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. *On the contrary, they are evidences of their success."*
> 
> **quote from Bruce Shortt's book, _The Harsh Truth About Public Schools_
> 
> They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.



It really is a shame that the American Church has flat out ignored what R.J. Rushdoony was preaching 40 years ago. The man was nearly 100% right in forecasting what would become of the Church.


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## Knoxienne

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Happy2BHome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system.
> 
> R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. *On the contrary, they are evidences of their success."*
> 
> **quote from Bruce Shortt's book, _The Harsh Truth About Public Schools_
> 
> They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really is a shame that the American Church has flat out ignored what R.J. Rushdoony was preaching 40 years ago. The man was nearly 100% right in forecasting what would become of the Church.
Click to expand...


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## mvdm

Pergamum said:


> AMEN....
> 
> Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!
> 
> My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.



I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:

Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse


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## Pilgrim

Pergamum said:


> AMEN....
> 
> Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!
> 
> My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.



A similar mentality was found in the "New Evangelicals" involved with Billy Graham's crusades, Fuller Seminary, Christianity Today, etc. I think it's clear by now who got influenced more by the cooperation with unbelief. I know this is off topic, but in my opinion this episode, coupled with the disaster of the independent fundamentalist movement, was the greatest tragedy of the church in the 20th century in the USA and the UK to some extent as well.


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## Classical Presbyterian

mvdm said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN....
> 
> Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!
> 
> My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:
> 
> Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse
Click to expand...


I read that post. What a fool! The schools in Machen's day actually read the classics and studied history. That was the pre-revisionist era! The writer is utterly clueless about the state of modern "edumification" in this State of ours...


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## LawrenceU

mvdm said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN....
> 
> Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!
> 
> My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:
> 
> Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse
Click to expand...



Wow! That fellow is taking an apple and making it an orange. Machen's scholastic education was as similar to what takes place in the vast majority of schools (public, private, and 'Christian) today as is the atmosphere of earth and the moon.


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## Pilgrim

[rant on]
The R2kers are worse than many if not most of the worst dispensationalists in my opinion with regard to head in the sand thought and behavior and following the world's dictates in their everyday lives. To give one (rather mild) example, in my opinion The Insufficiency of Scripture is probably one of the worst articles I've ever read by any purported evangelical, much less a Reformed one. (I'm far from a theonomist or a recon (which is what the article was aimed at) and most of you would probably categorize me as a Dispensational.) Phil Johnson thinks it was either the worst or 2nd worst article to ever appear in Modern Reformation. (I wonder what the rival would be?) 

Basically their position if held to consistently it comes down to--Got a problem? Take a pill. Go see Dr. Freud since of course "all truth is God's truth." The Bible says the earth was created in 6 days? Well science ("God's truth" again) says otherwise, so we gotta do a rethink. We have "Word" and Sacrament here and nothing more. The church exists between the call to worship and the benediction and has little or no relevance otherwise except perhaps behind the closed doors of the homes of members of the covenant community. 

R2k also has subtle hyper-Calvinist tendencies given the reluctance to apply God's law outside of the covenant community. (If the law doesn't apply, then how is the Gospel Good News?) I know that I am painting with a broad brush here and some in that camp would cry foul at it, but one doesn't have to look hard to find examples of all of the above, as well as those of that mentality who are pushing for gay marriage, have no problem with state funded embryonic stem cell research, etc. 

If we followed their dictates (including throwing the *First *Great Awakening under the bus) we would look like Europe now. But dhimmitude would seem to fit many of them quite well. 

Well, I think I'll go back to lurk mode at this point. Been spending too much time on here. Maybe I'll go do some of that Bible beating that the R2kers so abhor.

[/rant off]


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## Pergamum

ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----

Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.


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## LawrenceU

> Undy Fundy


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## Ivan

LawrenceU said:


> Undy Fundy
Click to expand...


Could be a name for a whole new line of clothing.


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## LadyFlynt

The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).


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## Pilgrim

Pergamum said:


> ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?
> 
> -----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----
> 
> Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.



Pergy, 

I've been giving the issue of fundamentalism some thought. Here are some of my thoughts, although I don't know how pertinent they really are to your question. 

There are others here who can give you better information who have been on the "inside" of the fundamentalist movement. I believe Ruben has a fundamentalist background as do several others here. I've only encountered it on the internet.  

At this point I view it as largely a Northern movement (which I think was George Marsden's thesis) with regard to organization, etc. Of course BJU and PCC and some other schools in the South would be an exception. But I say Northern because the problems in the Northern mainline churches in the early 20th century were much more pronounced than in the South, and so a lot more "fundamentalists" came out at that time, whereas conservatives tended to stay in the PCUS and SBC, although exceptions like J. Frank Norris could certainly be named. 

I am actually not opposed to fundamentalism in principle. Early on Machen was considered a fundamentalist and men like Warfield had work published in the Fundamentals series. It basically meant standing up for the authority of the Bible against modernism, etc. Of course it has now come to mean something else entirely. But I do think the principle of separation from error is sound. 

Sovereign Grace Baptists (Pergy and I aren't referring to Mahaney's organization) are separatists too to a large degree as most of them are independent. (Some are SBC but basically in name only, and those are typically cases in which the church isn't as Calvinistic as the pastor.) But they aren't part of the fundy movement. As we will see, the issue of "second degree separation" is where the rubber really meets the road as far as the fundamentalist movement is concerned. A lot of fundamentalists don't seem to be able to conceive of a man or a church that is independent (i.e. not part of their movement) that isn't compromised in some way. 

Many Sovereign Grace churches are amil, but some are premil. (Since I am premil, I can't help you with trying to reform the national church unless maybe they've embraced some kind of extreme view or give the subject too much emphasis, as many of course do.) 

Most here on the board are members of churches that are separatist to some degree, including the PCA, OPC, URCNA, FIRE, ARBCA, etc. The Free Presbyterian church (Paisley) that a few here from time to time have been involved with is basically fundamentalist and has ties with the fundamentalist movement.

However, the indy fundy movement has been dominated by a bunch of little popes excommunicating each other in newsletters, etc. typically without any due process. They also harp on minor and sometimes questionable issues or things indifferent and typically are _*not fundamental enough*_ when it comes to actually defending the fundamentals. Instead, much of the focus is on whether we should separate from Albert Mohler because he isn't separated from Billy Graham (who cooperated with liberals and Rome,) or separate from John MacArthur because he isn't separated from Albert Mohler who isn't separated from Billy Graham. Especially after the split with the "New Evangelicals" in the middle of the 20th Century, serious scholarship for the most part seems to have disappeared from the movement. King James Onlyism of course is prominent among many IFB's as well. 

Calvinism is making inroads into some Fundamentalist circles too. I like much of what I see from younger fundamentalists at sites like Sharper Iron, although I usually only give it the occasional passing glance. But I don't hesitate to say that I have more confidence in some of the "young fundamentalists" (many of whom are imbibing Carson, Piper, Dever, etc.) than I do in the "young evangelicals" who are often on the verge of doctrinal indifference at best, if not outright heresy and apostasy. The chief "heresy" of some of the younger fundys seems to be questioning aspects of the movement itself, such as legalism and maybe questions about separation in some instances. 

There are some bright spots among fundamentalist institutions as well, like Detroit Baptist Seminary and Central Baptist Seminary, although they are not representative of the movement as a whole. (I'm sure some in the movement probably think they are compromised because they are not KJVO, etc.) I read something from Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary the other day that basically argued for what amounts to the Regulative Principle of Worship. Although most here will of course disagree with some aspects of their doctrinal position, I've seen some excellent articles in the Detroit Baptist Seminary journal. I can't swallow their ideas about separation whole, but I do think we ought to give credit where credit is due. 

Bob Jones University for the most part seems to have always had an excellent academic reputation and has periodically had Calvinist faculty. It's just that there has always been some...baggage that went along with attending what was once proclaimed to be "The World's Most Unusual University."

There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 01:24:21 EST-----



Ivan said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Undy Fundy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be a name for a whole new line of clothing.
Click to expand...


Undy Fundy. Is that a new fundy Mormon sect?


----------



## LadyFlynt

Pilgrim said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?
> 
> -----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----
> 
> Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergy,
> 
> I've been giving the issue of fundamentalism some thought. Here are some of my thoughts, although I don't know how pertinent they really are to your question.
> 
> There are others here who can give you better information who have been on the "inside" of the fundamentalist movement. I believe Ruben has a fundamentalist background as do several others here. I've only encountered it on the internet.
> 
> At this point I view it as largely a Northern movement (which I think was George Marsden's thesis) with regard to organization, etc. Of course BJU and PCC and some other schools in the South would be an exception. But I say Northern because the problems in the Northern mainline churches in the early 20th century were much more pronounced than in the South, and so a lot more "fundamentalists" came out at that time, whereas conservatives tended to stay in the PCUS and SBC, although exceptions like J. Frank Norris could certainly be named.
> 
> I am actually not opposed to fundamentalism in principle. Early on Machen was considered a fundamentalist and men like Warfield had work published in the Fundamentals series. It basically meant standing up for the authority of the Bible against modernism, etc. Of course it has now come to mean something else entirely. But I do think the principle of separation from error is sound.
> 
> Sovereign Grace Baptists (Pergy and I aren't referring to Mahaney's organization) are separatists too to a large degree as most of them are independent. (Some are SBC but basically in name only, and those are typically cases in which the church isn't as Calvinistic as the pastor.) But they aren't part of the fundy movement. As we will see, the issue of "second degree separation" is where the rubber really meets the road as far as the fundamentalist movement is concerned. A lot of fundamentalists don't seem to be able to conceive of a man or a church that is independent (i.e. not part of their movement) that isn't compromised in some way.
> 
> Many Sovereign Grace churches are amil, but some are premil. (Since I am premil, I can't help you with trying to reform the national church unless maybe they've embraced some kind of extreme view or give the subject too much emphasis, as many of course do.)
> 
> Most here on the board are members of churches that are separatist to some degree, including the PCA, OPC, URCNA, FIRE, ARBCA, etc. The Free Presbyterian church (Paisley) that a few here from time to time have been involved with is basically fundamentalist and has ties with the fundamentalist movement.
> 
> However, the indy fundy movement has been dominated by a bunch of little popes excommunicating each other in newsletters, etc. typically without any due process. They also harp on minor and sometimes questionable issues or things indifferent and typically are _*not fundamental enough*_ when it comes to actually defending the fundamentals. Instead, much of the focus is on whether we should separate from Albert Mohler because he isn't separated from Billy Graham (who cooperated with liberals and Rome,) or separate from John MacArthur because he isn't separated from Albert Mohler who isn't separated from Billy Graham. Especially after the split with the "New Evangelicals" in the middle of the 20th Century, serious scholarship for the most part seems to have disappeared from the movement. King James Onlyism of course is prominent among many IFB's as well.
> 
> Calvinism is making inroads into some Fundamentalist circles too. I like much of what I see from younger fundamentalists at sites like Sharper Iron, although I usually only give it the occasional passing glance. But I don't hesitate to say that I have more confidence in some of the "young fundamentalists" (many of whom are imbibing Carson, Piper, Dever, etc.) than I do in the "young evangelicals" who are often on the verge of doctrinal indifference at best, if not outright heresy and apostasy. The chief "heresy" of some of the younger fundys seems to be questioning aspects of the movement itself, such as legalism and maybe questions about separation in some instances.
> 
> There are some bright spots among fundamentalist institutions as well, like Detroit Baptist Seminary and Central Baptist Seminary, although they are not representative of the movement as a whole. (I'm sure some in the movement probably think they are compromised because they are not KJVO, etc.) I read something from Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary the other day that basically argued for what amounts to the Regulative Principle of Worship. Although most here will of course disagree with some aspects of their doctrinal position, I've seen some excellent articles in the Detroit Baptist Seminary journal. I can't swallow their ideas about separation whole, but I do think we ought to give credit where credit is due.
> 
> Bob Jones University for the most part seems to have always had an excellent academic reputation and has periodically had Calvinist faculty. It's just that there has always been some...baggage that went along with attending what was once proclaimed to be "The World's Most Unusual University."
> 
> There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.
> 
> -----Added 3/10/2009 at 01:24:21 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be a name for a whole new line of clothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Undy Fundy. Is that a new fundy Mormon sect?
Click to expand...


No, it's what they wear  "Got your Fundy Undies on?"


----------



## JohnGill

Pilgrim said:


> There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.




I registered but cannot find them.


----------



## The Deeps

Will our problems be solved in separating ourselves from the public schools?
How many of Gods elect are in your public school? 

*I am home schooling my children for a completely different reason than some i guess.*

I want my kids to have a good education.

What is the purpose of educating our children?
What is the purpose of glorifying God in this dark world?

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?


----------



## SolaScriptura

The Deeps said:


> Will our problems be solved in separating ourselves from the public schools?
> How many of Gods elect are in your public school?
> 
> *I am home schooling my children for a completely different reason than some i guess.*
> 
> I want my kids to have a good education.
> 
> What is the purpose of educating our children?
> What is the purpose of glorifying God in this dark world?
> 
> Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?




I too want my children to have the best education possible... and I think that homeschooling provides my children with the best available context in which that desire can be realized.

Regarding separation... it isn't a matter of taking our children out of the "godless" environment so as to keep them from being exposed to the real world, per se... The issue is that at their tender age they do not yet have the tools and resources with which to interpret the godlessness to which they're exposed, both in the examples of their teachers and peers and in the formal indoctrination program, er, I mean "educational curriculum," to which they're subjected. They don't at that young age have the tools to properly respond to the lies and deceit in which they're immersed full-time, 5 days a week.

You don't throw a young Soldier - or Marine! - into combat without completing his training first. Why then do we do that with our children when the war is of greater consequence than ANYTHING our military could possibly face?


----------



## LawrenceU

> Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?



Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.


----------



## the particular baptist

JohnGill said:


> PactumServa72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have close friends that are public school (high school) teachers and still educate their children at home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For some reason that post struck me as funny. It made me think of a Ford dealership owner who drives a Chevrolet.
Click to expand...


Well, theyre not militant state educators. They treat it like a job, albeit a flexible one, that allows them more time for their first priority, making disciples of Christ out of their sons and daughters.


----------



## Pilgrim

JohnGill said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I registered but cannot find them.
Click to expand...


It's still set up like a "store" with checkout, etc. but everything is now free, apparently. With the massive amount of material on there, it does take some time to find your way around. I've only scratched the surface so far. 

To find the 2005 message, once logged in, click:

Resources-->Shepherd's Conference-->Audio Downloads-->2005-->Seminar Sessions. Dead Right: The Failure of Fundamentalism by Phil Johnson is on the second page. Follow the same procedure to find the follow up message of the same title from 2006. 

Once you select your messages and "check out" they are held in "Media Downloads" for you to download at your leisure. This really helps if you are selecting a large number of messages for future reference and don't necessarily want to download them all right now. It keeps you from having to search for them again.


----------



## The Deeps

I am not as worried about the children as I am the parents who think that the government is the problem. What about Noah's children there where no Obamas or Bushes to worried about then.

To many parents are looking for someone to believe they don't know how to think just believe.

If we are not careful we can find ourselves following "Christian leaders" and swallowing their pills the same way many are following the government and swallowing it's pill. 

Teach people to think about what they believe not believe what they think.

I was raised in a public school praise God I was his elect and NO MAN could take me from his hand. How did I hear the Gospel in public school?

You guys need to be careful that's all i am saying. Things are simply not as simple as they sound when reading idealist ideas in both camps "Christian" and "non-Christian"


----------



## KMK

LadyFlynt said:


> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).



How about vouchers!


----------



## SolaScriptura

The Deeps said:


> I am not as worried about the children as I am the parents who think that the government is the problem. What about Noah's children there where no Obamas or Bushes to worried about then.



People will be sinners until the Lord returns. We can't blame the government for the presence of sin in our children.

However, we CAN label the government as a problem when it propigates and enforces an agenda of godless secular humanism based upon the philosophical principles of the likes of Dewey. The government CAN be seen as the problem when parents' rights are ripped away and placed in the hands of state educators.

You're right, there are some homeschooling parents who don't think. But far more of the non-thinking Christian parents are sending their kids off to state schools.


----------



## Skyler

KMK said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about vouchers!
Click to expand...


That works great when the economy's not in the hole and you have someone who can afford to cover those vouchers.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

My boys are all in the Public school system. It is the one I was raised in. I am worried about what they learn. So I teach them the truth. They have done well against the tied of evolutionistic humanism. And the kids around them are doing pretty good. I have some well rounded good kids. I know there are people on this board who will vouch for what I say. And just as a personal side note, I like the extra activities that the school provides such as sports.


----------



## BG

I would like to see the GOV allow those who do not use the public school system to be free from property tax.


----------



## Knoxienne

WDG said:


> I would like to see the GOV allow those who do not use the public school system to be free from property tax.



I'd like it if all homeowners were free from it. 
Yes, I know it's


----------



## LadyFlynt

Knoxienne said:


> WDG said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see the GOV allow those who do not use the public school system to be free from property tax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like it if all homeowners were free from it.
> Yes, I know it's
Click to expand...

In this area, we don't just have property tax, we have a per head tax...homeowner or not, if you live here, you pay.


----------



## Knoxienne

LadyFlynt said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WDG said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see the GOV allow those who do not use the public school system to be free from property tax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like it if all homeowners were free from it.
> Yes, I know it's
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In this area, we don't just have property tax, we have a per head tax...homeowner or not, if you live here, you pay.
Click to expand...


Yeah, here in MO we have property taxes on our cars too.


----------



## The Deeps

After reading the link I see Voddie quotes Wesley here and wesleys overly Kierkegaardian existential worldview shine through. 

Does anyone else see this? Or am I nuts? (don’t answer that)



> Let it be remembered, that I do not speak to the wild, giddy, thoughtless world, but to those that fear God. I ask, then, for what end do you send you children to school? “Why, that they may be fit to live in the world.” In which world do you mean, — this or the next? Perhaps you thought of this world only; and had forgot that there is a world to come; yea, and one that will last for ever! Pray take this into your account, and send them to such masters as will keep It always before their eyes. Otherwise, to send them to school (permit me to speak plainly) is little better than sending them to the devil. At all events, then, send your boys, if you have any concern for their souls, not to any of the large public schools, (for they are nurseries of all manner of wickedness,) but private school, kept by some pious man, who endeavours to instruct a small number of children in religion and learning together.



Voddie is using Arminian reasoning to back his reasoning for separation.
Does this argument of making school teachers and the world as the devil really fly?
Is my Gun the devil when it kills someone?
Is the beer the problem with the Alcoholic? 
Is it our Holiness or Gods Holiness that we should proclaim and uphold? 
This is Arminianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.

Does our righteousness come by fiat?

We are clothed in righteousness in this world already prepared in Christ to engage in this world not to prepare with pious works for the next world. I am not trying to earn points in this world. This world is not my selfish workplace where I am the craftsman and God will check my work. 
We as parents are not protecting our children from the world but from their own little hearts! (and protect them from mom and dad’s depravity also) 
God has done the work in me and the world needs to see Him in me. The Elect in the schools need parents take a stand not run away from the world and form Arminian monastic like colonies. Let’s be careful who we follow.
I am carefully watching Voddie before I follow. I hope he sees that many SBC are doing the same… trying to be careful and modest in their reactions to this present evil world.


----------



## the particular baptist

Able, sounds like you have a beef with Voddie personally, i'm not sure, just a vibe. 

There is no way I can be persuaded to deliver my children into the sewer of iniquity public schools have become.


----------



## coramdeo

Thankfully, my children have past those years and have turned out well in spite of public school. God is good. Our city is blessed to have a reformed church that has produced an outstanding private school teaching in a "Classical Education " format. They learn latin and can read and discuss Agustine before the graduate. I hope my new grandaughter can go there when she is ready for school.


----------



## The Deeps

> Able, sounds like you have a beef with Voddie personally, i'm not sure, just a vibe





> There is no way I can be persuaded to deliver my children into the sewer of iniquity public schools have become



Thats where i come from and i will never forget where i come from. 
As for that sewer my heart is more filthy.

Who will deliver your children from the sewer of iniquity in our own parental hearts... prone to mistakes? 

I don't even know Voddie. I am not attacking him. 
I have been around the fundamentalist block a couple times and i didn't fit the mold.


----------



## the particular baptist

The Deeps said:


> This is Armenianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.



Im not Arminian, not even close, and incredible pious arrogance is a pretty broad brush on home-schoolers motives.


----------



## KMK

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.


----------



## The Deeps

PactumServa72 said:


> The Deeps said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Armenianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not Arminian, not even close, and incredible pious arrogance is a pretty broad brush on home-schoolers motives.
Click to expand...


I am homeschooling my children.


----------



## JohnGill

KMK said:


> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.
> 
> *Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!*
> 
> *That being said, I homeschool my children.*



Just thought the sentence order was funny.


----------



## KMK

JohnGill said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.
> 
> *Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!*
> 
> *That being said, I homeschool my children.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought the sentence order was funny.
Click to expand...


You're right!  That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.

In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."


----------



## The Deeps

I also want to make it clear I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.
Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.


----------



## JohnGill

KMK said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.
> 
> *Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!*
> 
> *That being said, I homeschool my children.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought the sentence order was funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right!  That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.
> 
> In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."
Click to expand...


If I wasn't thanked out already today, I'd thank you for that. Intentional or not, you made me laugh out loud for a good minute.


----------



## The Deeps

KMK said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.
> 
> *Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!*
> 
> *That being said, I homeschool my children.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought the sentence order was funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right!  That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.
> 
> In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."
Click to expand...


----------



## JohnGill

The Deeps said:


> I also want to make it clear *I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.*
> Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.



What are you implying? 



> From Wikipedia:
> 
> The Armenians (Armenian: Հայեր, Hayer) are a nation and ethnic group originating in the Caucasus and in the Armenian Highlands. A large concentration of them has remained there, especially in Armenia, but many of them are also scattered elsewhere throughout the world (see Armenian diaspora). The Armenians have had a significant presence in countries such as Georgia, Iran, Russia, and Ukraine due to their proximity to Armenia. After the Armenian Genocide, a large influx of survivors fled to France, the United States, Argentina, the Levant and other countries that welcomed the Armenians. There are an estimated 8 million Armenians around the world.[17]


----------



## The Deeps

JohnGill said:


> The Deeps said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also want to make it clear *I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.*
> Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you implying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> The Armenians (Armenian: Հայեր, Hayer) are a nation and ethnic group originating in the Caucasus and in the Armenian Highlands. A large concentration of them has remained there, especially in Armenia, but many of them are also scattered elsewhere throughout the world (see Armenian diaspora). The Armenians have had a significant presence in countries such as Georgia, Iran, Russia, and Ukraine due to their proximity to Armenia. After the Armenian Genocide, a large influx of survivors fled to France, the United States, Argentina, the Levant and other countries that welcomed the Armenians. There are an estimated 8 million Armenians around the world.[17]
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Wow i don't think that's what i wanted to say!

ARMINIAN 

What cann i say i'm a Calvanast?


----------



## JohnGill

Pilgrim said:


> JohnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I registered but cannot find them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's still set up like a "store" with checkout, etc. but *everything is now free*, apparently. With the massive amount of material on there, it does take some time to find your way around. I've only scratched the surface so far.
> 
> To find the 2005 message, once logged in, click:
> 
> Resources-->Shepherd's Conference-->Audio Downloads-->2005-->Seminar Sessions. Dead Right: The Failure of Fundamentalism by Phil Johnson is on the second page. Follow the same procedure to find the follow up message of the same title from 2006.
> 
> Once you select your messages and "check out" they are held in "Media Downloads" for you to download at your leisure. This really helps if you are selecting a large number of messages for future reference and don't necessarily want to download them all right now. It keeps you from having to search for them again.
Click to expand...


You're buying me a bigger ipod!

Thank you for that.


----------



## Brian Withnell

calgal said:


> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?



Being a public school teacher, I personally would not mind if every family decided to home school their children and put me out of work. While I knew a public school teacher that did not do it for love of children, I know the vast majority do it for the children. Math teachers (I am one) could easily go elsewhere and make more, so the only reason I can see for teaching is love of kids.

I personally believe home schooling would be better for nearly anyone than public schooling. There may be exceptions, but that is what it would be, exceptional cases.


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## Brian Withnell

LadyFlynt said:


> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).



If the taxes that presently go toward public schools were left to the parents that put their children in private schools, the problem of money for private schools would near completely go away. (I know my property taxes are well more than 1/20th of my pay as a public school teacher -- if I taught 20 students in a class, and I received a good portion of the money saved if parents didn't have to pay property tax, it would be a wash.)


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## Ask Mr. Religion

When my family and I moved from Chicago to Phoenix, we enrolled our son in the local elementary school. It was not long before we were getting calls that he was being held after school for reasons like forgetting to bring pencils to school, or forgetting his class notebook. The little guy would meet us after detention teary eyed.

My wife and I were both university professors at the time, so we pulled my son out of public school and started teaching him at home when we were not working during the day.

Initially, it was tough separating Mom and Dad's roles when teaching our son. Sometimes we would become very frustrated with him. Losing our patience was a problem we finally overcame. We taught him three hours each day and he spent another two or three hours working on his own. We home-schooled our son from grades four through twelve.

For elementary school material we reviewed traditional school materials and selected what we thought were useful texts. It was an ad-hoc approach and we focused each day's instructions on a single subject. I spent time teaching my son some of the great messages and stories from the bible. I had him complete some biblical text studies and write papers on the materials.

For high school we used the materials and curriculum from The American School. We selected this school because of its reputation (used by State Dept. employees, movies star kids, etc.), for the school's ability to generate official transcripts, graded tests, actual science labs, 100 year history, and its regional accreditation. Lastly, I walked my son through the Dictionary of Cultural Literacy.

In December last year he graduated from ASU with a degree in Computer Information Systems and a 3.2 GPA. He recently completed a six-month internship at Intel Corporation and is now looking for a full-time position with one of the government security agencies.

The upsides of home schooling were enormously beneficial. My son completed High School in two years and had no problems being accepted at ASU.

The negatives were mainly socially related. My son missed the social interaction, proms, and dating. We pushed him into some social activities like volunteering in some of the local schools' community outreach programs. Nevertheless, my son was quite isolated throughout his education. ASU was an eye opener for him, he struggled to fit into a daily cadence of attending real classes with lots of other students. After his freshman year, he blossomed and came into his own. Mom and Dad still worry about this young man who has never went on a date or even so much as held a girl's hand. Dad can only hope that he won't marry the first young lady that pays any sort of attention to him!


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## calgal

Why make this a mandate? Are the churches then going to waste time and energy prosecuting the families who refuse to homeschool?


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## LadyFlynt

Brian Withnell said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the taxes that presently go toward public schools were left to the parents that put their children in private schools, the problem of money for private schools would near completely go away. (I know my property taxes are well more than 1/20th of my pay as a public school teacher -- if I taught 20 students in a class, and I received a good portion of the money saved if parents didn't have to pay property tax, it would be a wash.)
Click to expand...


Many of those *in need* do not, and cannot afford to, own property. They don't pay property taxes. They literally have a paycheck that comes in (if they are that fortunate) and that same paycheck goes out to pay as many bills as possible and put food in the fridge. There is rarely, if ever, anything left over.


----------



## Hamalas

Skyler said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about vouchers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That works great when the economy's not in the hole and you have someone who can afford to cover those vouchers.
Click to expand...


Actually, vouchers *save* the taxpayers money.


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## he beholds

Good thread!



Hamalas said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there have been several studies proving that the level of education the parents received had little to no effect on how well the children do. There are many cases where a woman with no more than a high-school degree had better educated children than a couple with several PhD degrees between them! Basically, the success of children in school is related to the amount of time and energy put into it by the parents.
> 
> Also, as regards the public school workers. As much as I loved being homeschooled, homeschooling is not for everyone. I plan on doing it with my kids, but some people don't have the resources necessary. A large scale exodus from public schools would require the creation of many new private Christian schools. Why not invite those teachers who are qualified to teach at the Christian schools?
Click to expand...


My husband teaches at a public school. We had hoped to both teach in Xian schools for a few years, but we got pregnant a lot sooner than we expected, so I quit teaching just as my husband completed his Masters and was about to start teaching. When I taught at the Xian school, I made *$16,000/year* and had no health benefits. I think this would be impossible for the head of household. My husband was sad to realize that he would not be able to teach at a Xian school. He never went to a public school (not from kindergarten through his master's) and did not want to spend 30 years teaching in one. However, he does now enjoy his job and has found a place for Xian teachers in the PS. I think his preference is still to teach or principal a Xian school or teach at a Xian college, but for now he is content. He has found that there are Xian students and he teaches the Puritans and expresses his worldview. 

However, we hope to homeschool our children.




Skyler said:


> The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.
> 
> However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.



I think it depends on your situation, maybe. One of my best friends was homeschooled, and of the five kids, none is shy or introverted. Plus, they know how to speak to adults and kids of all ages, b/c they aren't being trained by other six year olds. 



LadyFlynt said:


> The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).



As a mom who _is_ qualified to teach at a Xian school, I still would choose to just teach my kids at home. But if for some reason homeschooling won't work out, that's what I'd have to do, teach at my kids' school.
I think there has to be another way to pay teachers living wages. Even my single friends that I taught with were still unable to live on their own with our salary at the Xian school. I would have literally made more than double what I made if I chose to teach in a PS. 
Instead of doing capital campaigns to build new gymnasiums, perhaps the schools can focus on raising more money for the educators, since that is why the kids are there.



LawrenceU said:


> Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, I hear what you are saying, but *where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries?* Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.
Click to expand...


Great point! I have heard a sermon that expounded on the great commission and actually said that the first and foremost place for discipleship is at home. We are to be discipling our children! The best way to do this is spending a lot of time with them and teaching them what you want them to learn as a part of that discipleship, and the best way to do that is homeschool them--although I don't think it is the ONLY way.


----------



## The Deeps

LawrenceU said:


> Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.
Click to expand...


*Again... I home school my children. *

My Son just turned 4 and he is reading books. My daughter is 2 and she can spell her name. 

But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty. 

Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?

We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.


----------



## LadyFlynt

The Deeps said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Again... I home school my children. *
> 
> My Son just turned 4 and he is reading books. My daughter is 2 and she can spell her name.
> 
> But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty.
> 
> Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?
> 
> We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.
Click to expand...


When some of us have suffered abuse within the school system (more than one in my case, as I have lived many places), "balance" is the last thing we feel towards it...and don't expect otherwise.


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## The Deeps

Watch out for itching ears... feelings have a tendency to make our ears itch.


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## LadyFlynt

The Deeps said:


> Watch out for itching ears... feelings have a tendency to make our ears itch.



No, it's not a "feeling", it's a fact. And my job as a parent is to #1 protect MY children and #2 make certain they have a Christian education.

You also show ignorance of parents that homeschool for varying reasons. Even those that do so to "protect" their children, do not hide them away from the world or neglect teaching them how to deal with the world. If my child is in someone else's care the majority of their week, I have little to no control over what happens to them, it's a simple fact. 


(ps, please check your signature  you're a few lines too long)


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## SLutherG

*Overreaching*

With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children. 

I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing. Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well. 

I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.


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## Knoxienne

"No, it's not a "feeling", it's a fact. And my job as a parent is to #1 protect MY children and #2 make certain they have a Christian education...even those that do so to "protect" their children, do not hide them away from the world or neglect teaching them how to deal with the world. *If my child is in someone else's care the majority of their week, I have little to no control over what happens to them*, it's a simple fact."


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## LadyFlynt

SLutherG said:


> With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children.
> 
> I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing. Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well.
> 
> I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.



Do as you will. I understand when a family honestly has no other option...that is a failure of the church and my heart breaks for those people. May Gd's Grace sustain them. Others just simply want to do as they will. That's on them.

Does homeschooling produce "perfect" children? No, absolutely no! However, there is no moral benefit to having our children, during their most formative years, handed over to secular society and a humanist government that both have fallen over into an anti-Christian agenda. Scriptural principle? Sure. My husband and I are the parents. WE are responsible for OUR children's education and welfare. NOT the government. We should make certain that that education is as Gd honouring as possible. I've yet to find anything Gd honouring in the government education system.

As for the SBC "Mandating" the withdrawal from the government school system: fine and dandy, but they also need to make certain that EVERY SINGLE ONE of their members are able to transfer to alternate education or help provide the means.


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## refbaptdude

> I find this kid of discussion upsetting.



Samuel,

I also find such talk very disturbing.


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## LadyFlynt

refbaptdude said:


> I find this kid of discussion upsetting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samuel,
> 
> I also find such talk very disturbing.
Click to expand...


The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.


----------



## he beholds

The Deeps said:


> But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty.
> 
> Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?
> 
> We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.



I think maybe your advice is good, but not *very* applicable here. You won't find many (any) "fundamental" types, as far as I know. 

And you are right, parents are guilty of sin and will sin against their children. However, sending them to school gives a plethora of other opportunities to be sinned against, and those situations may not be dealt with biblically. 
Do we want our children to be taught by a grown-up or by 25 kids their own ages? In a school setting, especially past elementary school, students are not under the care of one single teacher who can really get to know them, as they see maybe six teachers throughout the day, and those six teachers care for 125 students or so. 

I think it is perfectly fine to keep your kids at home for more than one reason. Sure, your one reason of better education may sound right to you, but some of us will be in situations where the schools are excellent, or we could find a private one that is excellent, and we would still choose to homeschool our babes. 

Where, besides your own opinion, are we told that it is wrong to make decisions based on our want to protect our little ones, even *if* we are being over-cautious. 



SLutherG said:


> With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children.
> 
> I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. *While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing.* Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well.
> 
> I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.



I think most of us on the homeschooling side can agree 100% that education is not the be all and end all, and that is why even minimally educated parents know that they can accomplish more by keeping kids at home rather than sending them to school. 

I do know, however, that God's grace follows our children and in fact, goes before them, and His will will be done, whether they are in home or in school. I am just hoping to train them as I best can, and for *me* that involves my being their primary caregiver. We all have to make this choice: how will I obey God? We read God's instruction to train up a child in the way of the Lord, and then look at our circumstances, our abilities, our understanding of what that means, and the needs of our children to determine the best way for our family to accomplish this great task. Some of us will choose homeschooling, others private, others cyber, others public, and maybe others will use multiple methods. I think some of would argue that the easiest way to raise our kids in the admonition of the Lord is homeschooling, but we all, I think, would understand that for a small few, that may in fact not be the easiest. For instance, if a parent must work or the kid starves, we would see that training a starving child would not be the easiest way to teach them about God's love.

-----Added 3/12/2009 at 04:41:06 EST-----



LadyFlynt said:


> refbaptdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this kid of discussion upsetting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samuel,
> 
> I also find such talk very disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.
Click to expand...


Ditto!!!


----------



## refbaptdude

> The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.



LadyFlynt I have no problem with your statement above. My concern is more inline with what Ken wrote. -


> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.



And we should be careful that this is not a divisive issue in our local churches. Our unity is around the truth of the gospel not individual educational choices or personal convictions of families.


----------



## LadyFlynt

refbaptdude said:


> I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we should be careful that this is not a divisive issue in our local churches. Our unity is around the truth of the gospel not individual educational choices or personal convictions of families.
Click to expand...


I keep up with what happens in schools throughout the country (you will find this common with many home educators). I also have attended more than my own fair share of schools from one coast to the other and overseas. While no, not EVERY. SINGLE. school may be awful, the trend is such that government schools are out of the this family's picture frame. 

On unity, well it sounds like the SBC is calling for unity in this matter (though I get where you are coming from on this matter  however, the PB is a good place to pound out the whys and the which is better ideas  )


----------



## KMK

LadyFlynt said:


> On unity, well it sounds like the SBC is calling for unity in this matter (though I get where you are coming from on this matter  however, the *PB is a good place to pound out the whys and the which is better ideas*  )



Exactly! (Maybe that should be a sticky somewhere)


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## The Deeps

Just be engaged with your children wherever they are always showing them the way of truth by example. Pray for them. Prepare them to meet God don't become their God.

I remember all the churches I went to in college as a youth evangelist. 

So many children dressed nice and pure, beautiful dresses, nice hair, knew the Bible, good grades, sang like angels... spiritually dead. 
Mom and Dad were like a Pseudo Holy Spirit to them. 
When they got to college watch out! you think public school kids are bad?
When the cats are away the mice will play. 
Our children are free from righteousness just like the kids in the public schools. 

Again just be careful that you allow your children to be exposed to the world so they can feel the pull to wander just like all the other kids. 

It was the nasty little dirt eating, p0rnography watching, biblically ignorant, cussing, bastard children that i loved watch hear the gospel and receive the hope of Jesus. I remember Omaha Nebraska teaching 4th and 5th graders about Jesus who where sexually active!

I am not saying *all* home schooling parents through controlling and sheltering ways are using home school as form of protection to keep their children from "the enemy"... but enough are that i am concerned. 

Just an observation....Many of the problems that i have seen in the homes where home schooled children being sheltered it seemed as if the mother was running the show and the dad was kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Has anyone else noticed this?

-----Added 3/12/2009 at 07:36:14 EST-----



> (ps, please check your signature you're a few lines too long)



Thanks!


----------



## LadyFlynt

The Deeps said:


> Just be engaged with your children wherever they are always showing them the way of truth by example. Pray for them. Prepare them to meet God don't become their God.
> 
> I remember all the churches I went to in college as a youth evangelist.
> 
> So many children dressed nice and pure, beautiful dresses, nice hair, knew the Bible, good grades, sang like angels... spiritually dead.
> Mom and Dad were like a Pseudo Holy Spirit to them.
> When they got to college watch out! you think public school kids are bad?
> When the cats are away the mice will play.
> Our children are free from righteousness just like the kids in the public schools.
> 
> Again just be careful that you allow your children to be exposed to the world so they can feel the pull to wander just like all the other kids.
> 
> It was the nasty little dirt eating, p0rnography watching, biblically ignorant, cussing, bastard children that i loved watch hear the gospel and receive the hope of Jesus. I remember Omaha Nebraska teaching 4th and 5th graders about Jesus who where sexually active!
> 
> I am not saying *all* home schooling parents through controlling and sheltering ways are using home school as form of protection to keep their children from "the enemy"... but enough are that i am concerned.
> 
> Just an observation....Many of the problems that i have seen in the homes where home schooled children being sheltered it seemed as if the mother was running the show and the dad was kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Has anyone else noticed this?



Though you follow up with not all are, your broadbrushing in the beginning of your post all too well gives away your feelings towards many homeschoolers. My guess is that you would take one look at me and just ASSUME that I'm one of them (girls wear skirts, I headcover...though my husband has a shaved head and a goatee  ). It's sad and humourous, because I get the exact opposite reaction by other people (*gasp!* they watch TV! She wears makeup and earrings! She actually knows what's in their bank account! Her husband asks her opinion!)  There goes that's tree hugging liberal in me, dancing past in bare feet  And yes, we've been harassed for such assumptions, even though IRL I pretty much keep my opinions to myself unless asked or it's brought up in a conversation. People that don't look anything like us were shocked that we consider the anabaptists round here to be liberal and these lovely ladies that don't even come close to representing that to be conservative (theology  ). However, we have our standards, have had them for over a decade, and have no intention to change, nor do we go around shoving it down everyone else's throats (PB being an exception as every topic seems to make it's yearly rounds on the debate table  psalmody, homeschooling, holidays, headcovering, alcohol, marijuana, etc).

But MOST homeschooling families I know, do expose their children to the world, under their guidance. They don't see themselves as Gd or Holy Spirit to their children (heaven forbid). They actually WANT their children to THINK for themselves (another reason many homeschool  ) and to feel free to do so and free to pound out ideas within the safety of their home and understanding parents. Goodness, conversation is the main theme of our home. 

Now, on the issue of EXTREME Patriarchy, I would definitely agree with the last statement. WOMEN are wanting something. A husband that acts more masculine, takes more time with their family, protection they didn't have growing up, etc. Some like the idealism of it. Yes, those women are being the opposite of what they preach instead of COMPLEMENTING their husband (I'm a complementarian. My husband pushed me to it and likes me that way). Homeschooling was a mutual thing here. Something we researched for several years and decided before our children were officially "school age". During our research, it was a toss up between private and home education...government schooling never even entered the picture for us.


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## Knoxienne

"Just an observation....Many of the problems that i have seen in the homes where home schooled children being sheltered it seemed as if the mother was running the show and the dad was kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Has anyone else noticed this?"

Absolutely - this is definitely a huge problem in homeschooling today. It has to be corrected. This is one of *many areas *where it's easy for men to abdicate and women to usurp without their even realizing it's happening.


----------



## The Deeps

> Though you follow up with not all are, your broadbrushing in the beginning of your post all too well gives away your feelings towards many homeschoolers.



I am not broad brushing I am throwing grey into a black and white issue for some. 



> But MOST homeschooling families I know, do expose their children to the world, under their guidance.



In your reality skew yes.



> My guess is that you would take one look at me and just ASSUME that I'm one of them



That is judgmental and it proves my point exactly.

If i am a single working mom with three kids home school is not an option and in fact the idea of it would be overwhelming to me. Do you know how many of those people attend my church? I was raised by one.


----------



## LadyFlynt

The Deeps said:


> Though you follow up with not all are, your broadbrushing in the beginning of your post all too well gives away your feelings towards many homeschoolers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not broad brushing I am throwing grey into a black and white issue for some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But MOST homeschooling families I know, do expose their children to the world, under their guidance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In your reality skew yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that you would take one look at me and just ASSUME that I'm one of them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is judgmental and it proves my point exactly.
> 
> If i am a single working mom with three kids home school is not an option and in fact the idea of it would be overwhelming to me. Do you know how many of those people attend my church? I was raised by one.
Click to expand...


A The beginning of your post is how many broadbrush us and you used it as a viable description.

My reality is NOT skewed. I happen to be in regular contact with many homeschoolers, of various faiths, of various circumstances. You also don't know us and thus have no business stating that my "reality is skewed".

My guess was based on the beginning of your post.

My husband was raised by a single female, my siblings were raised by my grandparents, my cousin was raised by friends of the family, my mama was a single mother for a time, my sisters were also, my brother is a single father. My husband is blue collar and most of his coworkers have broken homes. My husband used to work homeless and crackhouse ministry in StL and EStL...you can't get more down and out than that. Don't tell me what I know and don't know.

Yes, I DO know single mothers that are homeschooling their children. It's not easy. I know more that would LIKE to homeschool their children or see their children in a good church school. If you've read my posts thoroughly, you will also note that I placed the blame for the lack of Christian education and alternatives for these families squarely in the lap of THE CHURCH. SOME churches actually DO go out of their way to make certain that these families can home educate or attend their church school...I have witnessed that happening as well.

-----Added 3/12/2009 at 08:41:48 EST-----



The Deeps said:


> Just be engaged with your children wherever they are always showing them the way of truth by example. Pray for them. Prepare them to meet God don't become their God.
> 
> I remember all the churches I went to in college as a youth evangelist.
> 
> So many children dressed nice and pure, beautiful dresses, nice hair, knew the Bible, good grades, sang like angels... spiritually dead.
> Mom and Dad were like a Pseudo Holy Spirit to them.
> When they got to college watch out! you think public school kids are bad?
> When the cats are away the mice will play.
> Our children are free from righteousness just like the kids in the public schools.



I apologise, I realised that this was YOUR experience where YOU lived for a time. It's not an accurate overview of homeschoolers in general.


----------



## The Deeps

> My reality is NOT skewed. I happen to be in regular contact with many homeschoolers, of various faiths, of various circumstances. You also don't know us and thus have no business stating that my "reality is skewed".



Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 10/14... ects

Your reality skew is simply the lens in which you view the world or reality and yours and mine are fallible but Christ is not. Is your reality absolute truth? If your reality is skewed like mine is it is because of our own human condition. You live in a world that is different than mine. Your world is not my world (Oregon). Home school is held up as a standard by many Christians. Home school is not the standard. Christ is the standard. Christians need Christ and His church. See MANY Christians who cannot home school live in a different reality. We must keep the main thing the main thing. Don't bring people to your view of the world or standards bring them to the standards of Christ.

It was the Elect in the public schools that brought me to the hope of Christ.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

One thing I have to say is that a good education in no way makes one a Christian. I have seen failures in the Homeschool industry... and yes it is an industry (lots of money to be made from it, so demonizing the Public education system is vital)... as well as in the Public school system. BTW, I do know demonization happens on both sides. A good education does make one a better Christian if God chooses to awaken a person. A good education also helps everyone (most of the time) be better citizens. 

I am having a problem with the broadbrush paint job that is being done here against the public educational system. There are bad things that happen in both industries. And the numbers of persecution are inflated in my opinion. As far as the decries of persecution go, I am not unsympathetic to it. I am just tired of hearing that it is the general rule. I am also tired of hearing that the general rule for the public school system has to be, "avoid it like the plague." I know a lot of personal godly achievements performed on both sides of the industry. There are a lot of good kids accomplishing good things on both sides of the isle. 

Just as someone noted that some Homeschool moms run the show and turn out bad apples because the Dad isn't as involved, (And I have mostly seen mothers running the Homeschool show btw) I have seen poor teachers in both the homeschool industry as well as the public school industry. Some of it has to do with the personality issue. Some of it has to do with the I want to protect my child from the world issue. And a lot of it has to do with an issue of apathy somewhere along the line. BTW, I know of one particular situation where one girl was lost when she went to College because she was so sheltered. And I have seen more boys sissified due to the homeschool environment. Thank God for Vision Forum and Doug Phillips. Boys are taught to be rough, rugged, and become men.

I am making a plea here that the broadbrush be put away or I will seek to do something about it. I don't mind if you all want to tell the positives or of a few problems concerning the public school system. Just put the broad brush away. 

Thank You.... Mr. Norseman Moderator.


----------



## LadyFlynt

The Deeps said:


> My reality is NOT skewed. I happen to be in regular contact with many homeschoolers, of various faiths, of various circumstances. You also don't know us and thus have no business stating that my "reality is skewed".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
> Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
> 
> Psalm 10/14... ects
> 
> Your reality skew is simply the lens in which you view the world or reality and yours and mine are fallible but Christ is not. Is your reality absolute truth? If your reality is skewed like mine is it is because of our own human condition. You live in a world that is different than mine. Your world is not my world (Oregon). Home school is held up as a standard by many Christians. Home school is not the standard. Christ is the standard. Christians need Christ and His church. See MANY Christians who cannot home school live in a different reality. We must keep the main thing the main thing. Don't bring people to your view of the world or standards bring them to the standards of Christ.
> 
> It was the Elect in the public schools that brought me to the hope of Christ.
Click to expand...


This I can agree with. 

All except the last part. In my case, the Elect in public schools could do nothing for me and could say nothing to me. Their hands were always tied. They knew it and I knew it. But it was okay for girls to get hit and suspended if they defended themselves, teachers and principals to hit on highschool girls, get smacked by a teacher that disagreed with your religious views, etc. The Elect stood nearby wringing their hands, saying "we can't touch those teachers".

I'm glad that you were blessed otherwise. However, when one has an option, I do believe that government schooling is on the bottom of the pile. Again, I place the fault of the lack of this option in the lap of the Church.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

LadyFlynt said:


> This I can agree with.
> 
> *All except the last part. * In my case, the Elect in public schools could do nothing for me and could say nothing to me. Their hands were always tied. They knew it and I knew it. But it was okay for girls to get hit and suspended if they defended themselves, teachers and principals to hit on highschool girls, get smacked by a teacher that disagreed with your religious views, etc. The Elect stood nearby wringing their hands, saying "we can't touch those teachers".



It is your case.... No broad brushing here. 

Last warning.


----------



## LadyFlynt

PuritanCovenanter said:


> One thing I have to say is that a good education in no way makes one a Christian. I have seen failures in the Homeschool industry... and yes it is an industry (lots of money to be made from it, so demonizing the Public education system is vital)... as well as in the Public school system. BTW, I do know demonization happens on both sides. A good education does make one a better Christian if God chooses to awaken a person. A good education also helps everyone (most of the time) be better citizens.
> 
> I am having a problem with the broadbrush paint job that is being done here against the public educational system. There are bad things that happen in both industries. And the numbers of persecution are inflated in my opinion. As far as the decries of persecution go, I am not unsympathetic to it. I am just tired of hearing that it is the general rule. I am also tired of hearing that the general rule for the public school system has to be, "avoid it like the plague." I know a lot of personal godly achievements performed on both sides of the industry. There are a lot of good kids accomplishing good things on both sides of the isle.
> 
> Just as someone noted that some Homeschool moms run the show and turn out bad apples because the Dad isn't as involved, (And I have mostly seen mothers running the Homeschool show btw) I have seen poor teachers in both the homeschool industry as well as the public school industry. Some of it has to do with the personality issue. Some of it has to do with the I want to protect my child from the world issue. And a lot of it has to do with an issue of apathy somewhere along the line. BTW, I know of one particular situation where one girl was lost when she went to College because she was so sheltered. And I have seen more boys sissified due to the homeschool environment. Thank God for Vision Forum and Doug Phillips. Boys are taught to be rough, rugged, and become men.
> 
> I am making a plea here that the broadbrush be put away or I will seek to do something about it. I don't mind if you all want to tell the positives or of a few problems concerning the public school system. Just put the broad brush away.
> 
> Thank You.... Mr. Norseman Moderator.



You are right. And I'll concede that I'm as biased as everyone else per my experience. 

-----Added 3/12/2009 at 09:08:01 EST-----



PuritanCovenanter said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> This I can agree with.
> 
> *All except the last part. * In my case, the Elect in public schools could do nothing for me and could say nothing to me. Their hands were always tied. They knew it and I knew it. But it was okay for girls to get hit and suspended if they defended themselves, teachers and principals to hit on highschool girls, get smacked by a teacher that disagreed with your religious views, etc. The Elect stood nearby wringing their hands, saying "we can't touch those teachers".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is your case.... No broad brushing here.
> 
> Last warning.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that wasn't my intent. He stated his experience and I was stating mine. We apparently both have had differing experiences in different schools. And perhaps it has coloured both of our views.


I'm done, stick a fork in me


----------



## Classical Presbyterian

I've seen plenty of garbage in public schools and plenty of weird home schooled kids...

We have chosen to school our kids at home, at least for now, but one image always floats into my mind from memory:
It was my high school principle. He showed up early and was the last one to leave each day. He always wore a suit and walked the halls with authority, purpose and dignity. He instilled respect wherever he went. And do you know what we all knew about him and whispered in hushed tones of respect behind his back? "_He's a Baptist Deacon!"_

One can find the elect in every sphere in my experience.


----------



## Brian Withnell

LadyFlynt said:


> Many of those *in need* do not, and cannot afford to, own property. They don't pay property taxes. They literally have a paycheck that comes in (if they are that fortunate) and that same paycheck goes out to pay as many bills as possible and put food in the fridge. There is rarely, if ever, anything left over.



The only folk that don't pay property taxes are those that are homeless. Just because a person rents a home doesn't mean they aren't paying the taxes on the property; it just means they don't get the deduction for paying those taxes (somebody pays the taxes, and I'll guarantee the rent is reflective of those taxes).

That is a shameful thing as well for our country ... the poorest pay the taxes of the rich, and the rich obtain the tax benefit. I don't begrudge those that are rich having what they have, but when we say that renters don't pay taxes it is just at the surface that they don't pay taxes. The only way renters would not be paying taxes is if rental property was untaxed.

Regardless, the average of the property taxes paid (including the share paid through rents) would more than compensate private school teachers enough so that private schools could do better by their staff.


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## BG

For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program.....I think you get the point. What say ye?

Just for the record, there is a dear woman at our church who is a public school teacher. She considers herself a missionary to her students even though she is not allowed to talk about Jesus or the Bible, she does disguise proverbs which she paraphrases and uses as character development in the classroom and hopes and prays no one figures out what she is doing. We love and pray for this woman even if we do not support PS. By the way, this woman homeschooled her 3 children, now that they are all grown up, she has gone back to teaching.


----------



## KMK

WDG said:


> For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program.....I think you get the point. What say ye?



Are you asking if it is alright for _any_ Christian parents, in _any_ place of the world, _under any circumstances_, to send their children to a private Muslim school? If so, you come close to using that broad brush that Randy already warned everyone about.

If you are genuinely asking if anyone can think of a scenario where it would be the right thing for Christian parents to send their children to a private Muslim school, so be it. But maybe you should start a new thread.


----------



## BG

Steve and others, 

I believe this is a devisive issue and rightfully so. How christians disciple their children is a very important issue. The public school systems, the department of education, and the teachers union do not teach from a presupposition that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Also, since I would think you would agree there is no such thing as neutrality, Jesus said, "You are either with me or against me." The issue of Christians using PS is not likely to go away very soon. For those of you who would like scriptural proof that we should homeschool, I would look at Deuteronomy ch 6 for starters. 

I think a bigger question concerning this issue is this, Is scripture sufficient enough to tell us how we are to disciple our children? I say yes. *A problem that I see among some is that they are consulting "the dead" on behalf of the living. *Who cares what unregenerate men or society think about how christians should raise their children. Until christians realise that we are immersed in seculiar humanism and that it is all we know we are not going to respond correctly to these issues. I believe that christians have only one rule to direct us how we are to glorify God and disciple our children. When our presuppositions become biblical than our actions will follow. If you will permit me to use another scripture..."Blessed is the man (student) who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seats of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night." Just note a couple of things 1. We are not to walk in the counsel of those who hate God. 2. We are to meditate, not on the various pagan worldviews or scientific myths, but on the law of God.

Public Schooling has not only taken a toll on our children, but also on the church. All of the following has crept into the church through the PS system: evolution, feminism, complementarianism, pragmatism, and a host of other things. The vain philosophies that are taught in our school systems today, will make it into our churches tomorrow. 

*Ideas have consequences.*


For the record, whether you homeschool, private school, or public school, if you confess Christ, you are my brothers and sisters.


----------



## The Deeps

How did Daniel fair in public schools? Praise God for light in darkness. I thank God for the children in our local public school(cesspit) that go to my church (redeemed cesspit). Pray for them.


----------



## BG

KMK said:


> WDG said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program.....I think you get the point. What say ye?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking if it is alright for _any_ Christian parents, in _any_ place of the world, _under any circumstances_, to send their children to a private Muslim school? If so, you come close to using that broad brush that Randy already warned everyone about.
> 
> If you are genuinely asking if anyone can think of a scenario where it would be the right thing for Christian parents to send their children to a private Muslim school, so be it. But maybe you should start a new thread.
Click to expand...



The purpose of my post was to ask those who use the PS if they would be opposed to christians in america sending their children to a muslim school. I am interested in their response. 

I don't think that I or anyone else has been painting with a broad brush. The department of education and the teachers union openly profess their animosity towards christianity. With that being said, I realise that their are many wonderful christians who teach in the PS system. I have friends that teach in the PS system. Nevertheless, they are not the leaders and they do not dictate policy.

-----Added 3/13/2009 at 01:25:51 EST-----



The Deeps said:


> How did Daniel fair in public schools? Praise God for light in darkness. I thank God for the children in our local public school(cesspit) that go to my church (redeemed cesspit). Pray for them.




Hard cases make bad law. By the way, I understand that a few people have made a trip over Niagra Falls and lived, but I am not sure I would recommend it to anyone. 

Not to mention brother, I do not think Daniel had any choice in the matter. Maybe death was an option.


----------



## The Deeps

WDG said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WDG said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program.....I think you get the point. What say ye?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking if it is alright for _any_ Christian parents, in _any_ place of the world, _under any circumstances_, to send their children to a private Muslim school? If so, you come close to using that broad brush that Randy already warned everyone about.
> 
> If you are genuinely asking if anyone can think of a scenario where it would be the right thing for Christian parents to send their children to a private Muslim school, so be it. But maybe you should start a new thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose of my post was to ask those who use the PS if they would be opposed to christians in america sending their children to a muslim school. I am interested in their response.
> 
> I don't think that I or anyone else has been painting with a broad brush. The department of education and the teachers union openly profess their animosity towards christianity. With that being said, I realise that their are many wonderful christians who teach in the PS system. I have friends that teach in the PS system. Nevertheless, they are not the leaders and they do not dictate policy.
Click to expand...


If the Muslims take over our schools and country it might be because all the Christians have disengaged from the culture to purify themselves for heaven.


----------



## BG

Quote:
"If the Muslims take over our schools and country it might be because all the Christians have disengaged from the culture to purify themselves for heaven. "


Sarcasm, I like it.

I am not sure about the whole disengage from the culture thing. I am postmill, I am seeking to have dominion over the culture. Using my children, not just as arrows, but in the words of V. Baucham, "Intercontinental ballistic missiles" of evangelism and entrepreneurialism. As far as purifying ourselves for heaven, I am not really sure about that either. One of the reasons that I homeschool is I need the extra time with my children (I am so selfish) so I can repent, ask forgiveness and start the whole process all over again. It turns out that my children have the misfortune of being born into a family where the father has a black heart and is constantly in the need of God's grace and forgiveness.


----------



## The Deeps

> 13. Let it be remembered, that I do not speak to the wild, giddy, thoughtless world, but to those that fear God. I ask, then,for what end do you send you children to school? “Why, that they may be fit to live in the world.”In which world do you mean, — this or the next? Perhaps you thought of this world only; and had forgot that there is a world to come; yea, and one that will last for ever! Pray take this into your account, and send them to such masters as will keep it always before their eyes. Otherwise, to send them to school (permit me to speak plainly) is little better than *sending them to the devil.* At all events, then, send your boys, if you have any concern for their souls, not to any of the large public schools, (for they are nurseries of all manner of wickedness,) but private school, kept by some pious man, who endeavours to instruct a small number of children in religion and learning together.



Synergism is what Wesley believed so it would make sense to keep them from the Devil. The Devil does not initiate with the grace For us to receive salvation. The children would not be able to hear the effectual call of grace in order for the children to respond with faith if they are in a place a little better than the devil.

A Monergists response... God calls I answer with the faith that he places in my heart. His phone line is connected to the public school system because they are sick and sick people seem to hear the physician.




> 14. “But what shall I do with my girls?” By no means send them to a large boarding-school. In these seminaries too the children teach one another pride, vanity, affectation, intrigue, artifice, and, in short, everything which a Christian woman* ought not to learn.* Suppose a girl were well inclined, yet what would she do in a crowd of children, not one of whom has any thought of saving her soul in such company? especially as their whole conversation points another way, and turns upon things which one would wish she would never think of. I never yet knew a pious, sensible woman that had been bred at a large boarding-school, who did not aver, one might as well send a young maid to be bred in Drury-Lane.



Do we learn these or are we these?
Synergism (Arminianism) Keep them from evil faithlessness so they will know how to respond to Gods effectual call.

Monergism... God called a guy like Paul (end of story)




> 15. “But where, then, shall I send my girls?” If you cannot breed them up yourself, (as my mother did, who bred up seven daughters to years of maturity,) *send them to some mistress that truly fears God;* one whose life is a pattern to her scholars, and who has only so many that she can watch over each as one that must give account to God. Forty years ago I did not know such a mistress in England; but you may now find several; you may find such a mistress, and such a school, at Highgate, at Deptford, near Bristol, in Chester, or near Leeds.



Synergism: Your hard work pays off... salvation.
Monergism:Gods hard work pays off for Gods holy name and fame!



> 16. We may suppose your sons have now been long enough at school, and you are thinking of some business for them. Before you determine anything on this head, see that your eye be single. Is it so? Is it you view to please God herein? It is well if you take him into your account! But surely, if you love or fear God yourself, this will be your first consideration, — “In what business will your son be most likely to love and serve God? _*In what employment will he have the greatest advantage for laying up treasure in heaven?”*_ I have been shocked above measure in observing how little this is attended to, even by pious parents! Even these consider only how he may get most money; *not how he may get most holiness! *Even these, upon this glorious motive, send him to a heathen master, and into family where there is not the very form, much less the power of religion! Upon this motive they fix him in a business which will necessarily expose him to such temptations as will leave him not a probability, if a possibility, of serving God. O savage parents! unnatural, diabolical cruelty. — if you believe there is another world.



Synergism: Earning the points and laying up treasure for your salvation.

Synergism: This Wesleys Holiness club put Whitfield in bed for months. He couldn't do it!
Its all about my personal holiness... and Gods too (for the Synergist).

Monergism... Grace and faith are gifts from God. this means if God wants to save children he does wherever and whenever... I am afraid for those children that have saved themselves with piety and virtuous service to their parents.

Voddie might be a monergist but why use Arminianism and borderline semi-pelagianism support his Exodus Mandate?


----------



## BG

Able,

I think the point of V.B.'s post was not to say that he agreed with his theology, he certainly does not, but was to simply point out that the issue of discipling children is not a new one. Not to mention, the majority of the SBC loves Wesley. It probably does not hurt his case that while their theology is at odds their conclusion (children should be discipled by christians) is the same.


----------



## The Deeps

I appreciate all of you! I thank you for your thoughts!
I just cannot forget my roots. God called me out of the honey bucket and that's all i know. He will continue to do the same for his Elect in the public schools.


----------



## KMK

WDG said:


> Steve and others,
> 
> I think a bigger question concerning this issue is this, Is scripture sufficient enough to tell us how we are to disciple our children? I say yes. *A problem that I see among some is that they are consulting "the dead" on behalf of the living. *...1. We are not to walk in the counsel of those who hate God. 2. We are to meditate, not on the various pagan worldviews or scientific myths, but on the law of God.



This is the kind of broad brush accusations that you are being kindly asked to refrain from. Regardless of your intention, it sounds like you are accusing every Christian PS parent, all over the world, in every situation, of...

1) consulting the dead...
2) walking in the counsel of those who hate God...
3) meditating on pagan world views and scientific myths.

Please refrain from such language.


----------



## LawrenceU

The Deeps said:


> How did Daniel fair in public schools? Praise God for light in darkness. I thank God for the children in our local public school(cesspit) that go to my church (redeemed cesspit). Pray for them.



The Daniel situation is more like a homeschooler going to college than a youngster going through a public education system from the get go. He was probably 14 -17 years old when captured. He was already a young man. We are the ones who have extended childhood. His solid understanding of the word of God had prepared him for his tenure in the pagan world.


----------



## KMK

WDG said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WDG said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program.....I think you get the point. What say ye?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking if it is alright for _any_ Christian parents, in _any_ place of the world, _under any circumstances_, to send their children to a private Muslim school? If so, you come close to using that broad brush that Randy already warned everyone about.
> 
> If you are genuinely asking if anyone can think of a scenario where it would be the right thing for Christian parents to send their children to a private Muslim school, so be it. But maybe you should start a new thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose of my post was to ask those who use the PS if they would be opposed to christians in america sending their children to a muslim school. I am interested in their response.
Click to expand...


Start a new thread.


One of the reasons that many of us homeschool our children is because we despise the way in which the state education system _mandates_ the way we raise our children. We despise this because our children's education is outside the state's sphere of God-given authority. Let us not become guilty of that thing we despise about the state. It is outside the church's sphere of God-given authority to mandate how parents educate their children.

Some speak as though they think parents who send their children to PS should be subject to church discipline.


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## a mere housewife

I was homeschooled, and so was Ruben; so were many of our friends. I think the academics vary from family to family (or school system to school system) as do the 'other considerations'. Almost all of the children that I grew up with who were homeschooled have gone very far afield and are yet in their sins. Growing up, some of the public schooled kids were kinder and more straightforward -- not having learned the virtue of hypocrisy like the rest of us had in our more Christian systems -- and some of them have grown into very admirable adults. The Christian schooled kids were the most vicious honestly, and the ones I begged not to have to be around (since we were homeschooled we had to take advantage of every social function in order to 'socialize' with other children: which meant basically, that I learned to stop objecting when the Christian schooled and other homeschooled kids smoked on church property, or made out in the back of the church van). Now some of those people are among my nicest friends -- they homeschool their children.

My experience is no doubt influenced by various factors and if I'd lived in a different area or we'd had different friends it might easily have been different: I reference it only as one person's very limited experience. But I do think that there are dangers with each of these 'systems'. Public schools vary from area to area but on the whole yes they are very secular and I oppose being forced to support a secular education system and would prefer to keep my child out of one. I actually though have a bigger problem with Christian schools in that I have seen that they offer the same temptations to children as public schools do, but the whole system gets a naive pass from parents who think a teacher's worldview is going to impact their child more than the 'worldview' of the child in the next row (in my experience of youth group etc: most adults pale into insignificance when one is with other children) -- and so parents don't try to warn and protect their children against these dangers as Christian parents of PS kids do -- as if children are somehow being kept out of the world because the textbook is published by a Christian company. Homeschool groups can be the same kind of thing. Still I have some wonderful friends who came out of all three systems. If we have children my first choice would be to homeschool (though I'm not sure I would be well enough for that: when we homeschooled our foster child, even though Ruben did the math and Bible, I relapsed into active mono); but I have seen enough to know that God can protect a child anywhere, and the world can get to a child anywhere: simply choosing to put one's child in a certain system of education does not equal parental neglect or the right kind of parental involvement. In the cases I have known where the public schooled children turned out admirably, the dad esp was an admirably wise and balanced parent, and was more biblically involved with the child than many dads are even in many homeschool families. Indeed I think that probably the character of the father and mother and the way in which they interact with their children have a more profound effect on the child's character than the mode of education; and it is simply not true to think that a wise and balanced parent, biblically interacting with their child, automatically homeschools. Of course without effectual grace nothing will protect a child from the world (and homeschooling is not an ordained means of grace though I have heard many promote it almost superstitiously as if it is).

Sadly some of my friends homeschooled but the father turned out to be sexually abusing underage girls. I have also known cases of physical abuse in homeschooling families that make being slapped by a teacher, horrendous as that truly is (Colleen I can't imagine), much less life altering. Perhaps for these reasons my view of homeschooling simply can't be as unqualified as some expressed here. Of course these things can go on in any family. That is my point.


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## BG

KMK;570582[/quote said:


> This is the kind of broad brush accusations that you are being kindly asked to refrain from. Regardless of your intention, it sounds like you are accusing every Christian PS parent, all over the world, in every situation, of...
> 
> 1) consulting the dead...
> 2) walking in the counsel of those who hate God...
> 3) meditating on pagan world views and scientific myths.
> 
> Please refrain from such language.




Ken, 

In my post I did use the word "some". I thought that was enough to get me off the broad brush hook. Sorry about that if it was not sufficient. On point 1, I will concede the point. I would agree. On points 2 and 3 I don't know if those are so much a broad brush, as an unescapable fact for the students regardless of who the parents are.


Some speak as though they think parents who send their children to PS should be subject to church discipline.[/QUOTE]

Ken,

You used the same word "some" as I did before, are you broad brushing?


To everyone,

I believe the jury is still out on homeschooling. It is difficult to judge a movement in the early stages. I think it will take another 20 years before we can accurately tell what the results are. If the early stages of this movement are any indication as to what the future holds, I for one am very excited. It will take awhile to get the kinks out. 

Since I started the thread, maybe I should be the one to try and end it. I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion/sharpening. I thought I would use my final post on this thread on a positive note. Whenever I ask older chrisitian sages about their children, without fail they always say the same two things:

1. "Enjoy your children, while they are young, they grow up too fast!"
2. "If I had it all to do over again, I would spend more time with my children."

I think this is sound advice we can all agree on. Whatever side of this issue you come down on. My prayer for you is that you are successful in passing on a Godly heritage to the next generation. May your children and your childrens children be covenant keepers.

The end and my last post on this thread....


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## KMK

Thread closed at the request of Bill.


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