# Is the PCA now ok with PLANTING Emerging Churches?



## SEAGOON (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Guys,

Just received the news about MNA's upcoming North America Church Planting Conference and my reactions to the line-up and talking points varied from disappointed to downright horrified. Not surprisingly, there was nothing about planting anything resembling an OSP church (which is always generally the case) and no one featured with any experience doing so (officially, we don't appear to exist) but also surprisingly nothing about planting what might be called a "traditional ministry." Everything was oriented towards developing either contemporary or - and here was the horrifying one for me - emerging churches.

Before, when we talked about the conference at CTS on the emerging church, it was billed as merely a conversation and nothing to get riled over, now we have MNA teaching "Theologically sound and culturally relevant approaches to planting emerging churches" which after watching the emerging/emergent movement for several years is roughly the 21st century equivalent of a 17th century Presbyterians talking about "Theologically sound and culturally relevant approaches to planting Quaker assemblies"

Here's the blurb: 

"Emerging Ministries: Church Planting in the Emerging Culture led by Ed Stetzer, Daniel Montgomery, and Shayne Wheeler


New churches have always been planted on the edge of culture. As culture has changed, so must our missional approaches to church planting. This forum will help you better understand the emerging culture so that you might be more effective in your ministry. Theologically sound and culturally relevant approaches to planting emerging churches will be explored. You will learn ten trends of emerging churches and how they have been effective at reaching people in new churches.


Ed Stetzer has trained pastors and church planters on five continents and he has planted churches in New York and Pennsylvania. He holds two masters degrees and two doctorates. Ed served for three years as a seminary professor at the Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and has taught at ten other seminaries. He has written, Planting New Churches in a Postmodern Age, and coauthored Perimeters of Light: Biblical Boundaries for the Emerging Church, which helps churches to determine what parts of church life are biblically commanded. He lives in Atlanta with his wife, Donna, and three daughters, and they are currently planting Lake Ridge Church in Atlanta."


Even better, Shane Wheeler has been a supporter not just of "emerging theology" but of the NPP/FV.

There were other disturbing comments, for instance: "_The Gospel compels us to rip our hearts open and make room for very different people in our lives, just as God in Christ has done for us._" Where do you even begin with that one...

Anyway, so despite a host of published warnings from our senior theologians, the official position in the PCA is "thumbs up for the emerging church movement?"

Is there any way to reign this in, or have things gone too far and we just wait around for "emerging theology" to work its way through our Presbyteries in the same way the New Haven theology did in the 19th century? I wish there was just some way to stop the denomination from tearing-off after every new wind and wave of doctrine that sweeps over the floundering and rudderless ship that is American evangelicalism. 

Your Servant in Christ,

Andy


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## 2 Tim 4:2 (Oct 3, 2007)

The Kingdom of God is not held captive by subcultures. Postmodernism is a subculture. Types of clothes and music are a result of subcultures. If we preach the word of God faithfully as it is in scripture we do not need subcultures to get the message across. People do not reject the gospel because the person delivering the message wasn't wearing the right clothes. They reject the gospel because they loved darkness more than light. The Emerging church is heresy riding on the back of evangelism.


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## Coram Deo (Oct 3, 2007)

How Sad.... Though I am not totally surprised.. It seems to be a common occurence in Reformed circles for some reason. It has been happening in Reformed Baptist Circles for the past couple of years... Is there any hope to stop the tide of it? I am not sure...


All in the name of Culture...... A Culture that is sick and evil..... 




SEAGOON said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just received the news about MNA's upcoming North America Church Planting Conference and my reactions to the line-up and talking points varied from disappointed to downright horrified. Not surprisingly, there was nothing about planting anything resembling an OSP church (which is always generally the case) and no one featured with any experience doing so (officially, we don't appear to exist) but also surprisingly nothing about planting what might be called a "traditional ministry." Everything was oriented towards developing either contemporary or - and here was the horrifying one for me - emerging churches.
> 
> ...


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## Archlute (Oct 3, 2007)

Please don't call me narrow, but did anyone besides me notice how many run-of-the-mill Baptists and community church spokesmen were on that lineup? 

How in the world can the PCA plant Reformed churches in North America when half of their church-planting lecturers are coming from convictions outside those of Presbyterianism? 

There are foundational issues here in ecclesiology, sacramental practice, and evangelistic methodology which will (or should) affect church planting practice.


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## wsw201 (Oct 3, 2007)

> There were other disturbing comments, for instance: "The Gospel compels us to rip our hearts open and make room for very different people in our lives, just as God in Christ has done for us." Where do you even begin with that one...



I have seen these United Methodist Chruch ads on TV. This sounds like it would fit right in. 

But then again should you really be that surprised? Looking at the PCA churches in the NTP, each one is different in regards to worship. They range from contemporary to traditional. Some have even dabbled with the emergent church type service. 

In my humble opinion, worship follows theology. Considering the good faith subscription in the PCA and that the PCA has no Constitutional Directory of Worship, I'm not too surprised by this.


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## SEAGOON (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Adam,



Archlute said:


> Please don't call me narrow, but did anyone besides me notice how many run-of-the-mill Baptists and community church spokesmen were on that lineup?
> 
> How in the world can the PCA plant Reformed churches in North America when half of their church-planting lecturers are coming from convictions outside those of Presbyterianism?
> 
> There are foundational issues here in ecclesiology, sacramental practice, and evangelistic methodology which will (or should) affect church planting practice.



Actually, the sad thing is that the Baptist blurbs were far less disturbing than the PCA affiliated ones. The speaker from Piper's church actually talked about doctrine for elders for instance, whereas we seem to think that doctrine is passe while using hip words like _missional_ are where its at.

Meh, what do I know, I don't even officially exist.


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## KMK (Oct 3, 2007)

thunaer said:


> How Sad.... Though I am not totally surprised.. It seems to be a common occurence in Reformed circles for some reason. *It has been happening in Reformed Baptist Circles for the past couple of years*... Is there any hope to stop the tide of it? I am not sure...



Can you be specific? Which circles?


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## Coram Deo (Oct 3, 2007)

If I did that I would have to talk about church splits and about pastors which I feel would be bordering gossip....... Not including my own experience with our previous church which would be alittle to much information, especially publicly........ All that I will say is that I have seen it in Montvillian circles and in Arbca circles.... Those in Montvillian circles left the Montville way due to such teachings.......



KMK said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > How Sad.... Though I am not totally surprised.. It seems to be a common occurence in Reformed circles for some reason. *It has been happening in Reformed Baptist Circles for the past couple of years*... Is there any hope to stop the tide of it? I am not sure...
> ...


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## KMK (Oct 3, 2007)

thunaer said:


> If I did that I would have to talk about church splits and about pastors which I feel would be bordering gossip....... Not including my own experience with our previous church which would be alittle to much information, especially publicly........ All that I will say is that I have seen it in Montvillian circles and in Arbca circles.... Those in Montvillian circles left the Montville way due to such teachings.......



I don't want to stumble you brother. It's just that we are thinking about different associations for our little church. We just left the ABC because of liberalism and my sheep are very reluctant to associate with anybody because they have been so burned by Purpose Driven and feminism and liberalism in many forms. They would flip if I brought them into circles that included 'emerging' churches.

(I do not doubt you, but are you sure about ARBCA? That seems unlikely since they subscribe to the LBC 1689)


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## sotzo (Oct 3, 2007)

Rev. Webb, you asked:

"Is there any way to reign this in, or have things gone too far and we just wait around for "emerging theology" to work its way through our Presbyteries in the same way the New Haven theology did in the 19th century? I wish there was just some way to stop the denomination from tearing-off after every new wind and wave of doctrine that sweeps over the floundering and rudderless ship that is American evangelicalism."

Here are my 2 cents...a dialogue must take place between the "Kellerites" and the "Van Tillians, Machenites, Owenites, etc". In other words,, there are (broadly speaking) 2 camps in the PCA at the moment...those who see Presbyterianism, in general, and the Gospel, in particular, as needing to be stripped of nomenclature that is only understood in circles that use such nomenclature...and those who think that taking such an action will necessarily result in the loss of meaning attached to such nomenclature. 

These two groups need to respectfully, but aggressively, debate at GA in a way that would lead to A) more understanding of the other's position and B) agreement on church planting. This will take more than just GA debate. It will take those in both camps, going into the worship services of the other, and finding out what is going on in each's respective communities. 

There are some who believe what Presbyterianism has largely been a middle, upper-class, white men phenomenon that resembles more of a country club than the kingdom of God. Some of these folks may be reacting too strongly and making "relevance" the badge of kingdom-service. The pendulum will continue to swing until presbyteries decide they want to respectfully discuss the matters openly with Bible in hand, not jumping to conclusion by calling one side "culture whoremongers" and the other "irrelevant Calvinists".


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