# My PCUSA, this is blatant denial of proper Church Discipline!



## Grymir (Oct 3, 2008)

I found this group to exist in my PCUSA called More Light Prebyterians. Its a same-sex movement. It's gross.

http://www.mlp.org/

On the home page, is a detailed analysis of a recent decision of my church about a 'pastor' who performed a same sex marriage. They say -

""The Prosecuting Committee has failed to meet the burden of proof that the accused carried out a marriage ceremony at all."

Pennsylvania civil law defines marriage as male-female, so a marriage between two women cannot be a marriage regardless of what occurred in the ceremony. Because the Book of Order does not recognize a same-sex marriage, it cannot be an offense to attempt to do the impossible.

Therefore, the commission does not find that the accused committed an offense by performing a ceremony between two people of the same gender.

Also, there is no evidence that the accused held out the ceremony as a marriage. It could be inferred from the order of service, but it has not been proved. The accused's belief about whether the ceremony was a marriage has not been proved, either."

This is bad. Jesus wept, and so do I.


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## jd.morrison (Oct 3, 2008)

More Light has been around for a while now... They are the ones that orchestrated the whole homosexual wedding that occured before our GA back in July. They did it to show our denominations support for "diveristity"...

Now that the denomination is trying to get us to refer to the Trinity as "Mother, Child and Womb", that and a slew of other things I am now in the process leaving....


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## jd.morrison (Oct 3, 2008)

Oh, and you will love this...

The woman pastor who married the homosexual couple is the great, great...great, great granddaughter of the Great Jonathan Edwards of "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God.

She has been flooding the news with PR... Talking about how her grandfather Jonathan Edwards would be proud of her for fighting for unity and civil and human rights...


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## Grymir (Oct 3, 2008)

jd.morrison said:


> Oh, and you will love this...
> 
> The woman pastor who married the homosexual couple is the great, great...great, great granddaughter of the Great Jonathan Edwards of "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God.
> 
> She has been flooding the news with PR... Talking about how her grandfather Jonathan Edwards would be proud of her for fighting for unity and civil and human rights...



Jonathan Edwards is spinning in his grave at high rotation right now. I wish he was there to tell them the errors of their ways. He could deliver more hell-fire and brimstone than I could. And that's alot!


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

I am not surprised at the outcome of the trial. I was fired from the staff of a PCUSA church because of my pro-life stance and opposition to ordaining homosexuals. When I made a plea higher up, they simply told me that I shouldn't have been fired for that stance, but I didn't have "enough information" to prove my case before a PCUSA court so I should let it drop.


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## A5pointer (Oct 3, 2008)

It is old news. I love the logic. Wonder what a judge would say to me if I robbed a gas station and used the same defense.


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

> It is old news. I love the logic.



Very true. I read through a PCA court case from Tennessee where a pastor let a woman preach during Sunday night service, and after being brought up on charges his defense was that since the PCA doesn't allow woman preachers, and she was a woman, she couldn't have been preaching. He further said "just because is walks like a duck and talks like a duck it doesn't mean it's a duck". You can't make this stuff up.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

Tim, are you speaking of the PCUSA or the PCA?


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

It was a TE of the PCA. The court case ended ambiguously, with the guy saying he wouldn't allow it again, but the church not ruling either for or against the "a woman can do anything an unordained man can do" theory that is fairly widespread in the PCA. To me, that was the main issue, and should have been addressed.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks for that clarification. I have not seen any of that in my presbytery, but I am told we are unusual in many ways from a lot of the PCA. 

The PCUSA, on the other hand has been behaving like this for decades.


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

> So you think that a woman may do anything an unordained man may do, other than serve as an officer or administer the sacraments?
> "Yes."
> 
> That means that a woman may preach (i.e., give a sermon or the main message during a service of public worship, which may include exposition of Scripture and/or exhortation)?
> "If it was under and at the invitation of the Session."



Here's something about the case, although it may be dated.

SJC Declines to Proceed to Trial in John Wood Matter


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

As usual, in PCA, it all depends on whose calling the shots at what time. As you can see from the decisions of the past Generaly Assmebly, the current leadership would probably have pursued this matter further. 

There are those in the PCA who believe that women can have a gift to exhort and teach, but not hold the office, therefore, they may preach to women and children, but they may not do so to the entire congregation. This topic actually came up in the sermon this past week when our pastor was preaching on headship.


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

> As usual, in PCA, it all depends on whose calling the shots at what time.



And that is probably a better answer to the original poster's question than any so far.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 3, 2008)

jd.morrison said:


> Oh, and you will love this...
> 
> The woman pastor who married the homosexual couple is the great, great...great, great granddaughter of the Great Jonathan Edwards of "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God.
> 
> She has been flooding the news with PR... Talking about how her grandfather Jonathan Edwards would be proud of her for fighting for unity and civil and human rights...



Yet Another Minister is "Let Off the Hook" for Blessing Same-Sex Unions


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## Grace Alone (Oct 3, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Thanks for that clarification. I have not seen any of that in my presbytery, but I am told we are unusual in many ways from a lot of the PCA.
> 
> The PCUSA, on the other hand has been behaving like this for decades.



No, I do not think that women preaching is common in the PCA at all. It sounds like that church was a little loose in calling their evening gathering a worship service at all since sometimes they had music or a missions report in lieu of a sermon. It sounds like they intended to have the women's minstry director speak on women's ministry. The huge mistake was calling the event a worship service, so I do agree they were wrong to let her "speak" under those circumstances. And it did sound like that pastor was not in line with PCA rules on women's roles in the church. I wonder if he is still in the PCA? he might fit better in the EPC maybe.

I noticed something else wrong with that church, too. It said they had 3000 people attending on Sunday morning but only around 25 or so on Sunday evening. Sounds like a church where the commitment or teaching was superficial and not deep to me.


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## Grace Alone (Oct 3, 2008)

Tim and Joshua, I pray that you will both find a way out of the PCUSA soon. I can't tell you what a blessing it was to join a Bible-believing church and denomination after being in the PCUSA.


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## jfschultz (Oct 3, 2008)

TimV said:


> It was a TE of the PCA. The court case ended ambiguously, with the guy saying he wouldn't allow it again, but the church not ruling either for or against the "a woman can do anything an unordained man can do" theory that is fairly widespread in the PCA. To me, that was the main issue, and should have been addressed.



If this is the case that comes to my mind, it became a moot point because the church involved withdrew to the EPC.


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## davidsuggs (Oct 3, 2008)

Was in the PC(USA) all my life up to six years ago. Incredible blessing to be in the PCA now.


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

> If this is the case that comes to my mind, it became a moot point because the church involved withdrew to the EPC.



Thanks, I wondered what happened with them.


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