# Life’s greatest tragedy



## stilllearning (Nov 12, 2008)

Normally when you think of a tragedy, you think about some great disaster, like an earthquake or flood, that takes thousands of lives. Well there is an even greater disaster than this, that is effecting Billions of people. This disaster isn’t greater, because it hurts more people, but because of the duration, in which these people will be hurt.

The tragedy, that I am referring to, is a Spiritual tragedy. And we can read about it in Matthew chapter 7.



> Matthew 7:21-23
> V.21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



The tragedy talked about in this passage, is the tragedy of a religious person, thinking that they are saved, and on their way to heaven; Only to find out too late, that they weren’t really saved, at all. The Bible tells us here and many other places, that Billions of people, are going to be deceived in this way, and will have to spend an eternity in Hell, because of it.

The most important thing in the world for us to do, is to make 1000% sure, that we are truly born again, and not just religious (See 2 Corinthians 13:5). Faith in Jesus Christ alone, is the only way of true forgiveness and salvation. Making sure that we are doing things, “according to the Bible”, and not “according to man’s opinion”, is another good way, to make sure, that you are really saved.

One of the best ways, to know if you are really saved, is by how you react to the Gospel, when it is preached. If that message, causes you to have any doubts about your relationship with God, this is a good sign, that you need to do some soul searching.


----------



## sotzo (Nov 12, 2008)

Still Learning:

By the way, good screen name!

I appreciate where you're coming from but I think the process of "making 1000% sure" and "making sure we are doing things according to the Bible and not man's opinion" can lead (ironically) to the same point of false assurance you are rightfully trying to avoid. I don't know if either of those things can be obtained to full measure by all people (see WCF on assurance not being the essence of saving faith). For example, there are MANY times I still find myself trying to gain man's approval rather than simply serve God because of his grace in Christ. I find myself repenting daily for that type of behavior! I also still have moments of doubt where one day I'll stand before the Father and be found to not have "sincerely" trusted Jesus...to this all I can do is throw off my subjective doubt by looking to the objective work of Christ and saying I believe!, help my unbelief!

Also, the verses in Matthew contain Jesus' words to people who are using God's name to justify actions that are all show. He does not address these words to people who may struggle with doubt (are not 1000% percent sure of their salvation) or finding themselves repenting often for trying to please men and not God. Rather, the actions of the disciples, the man in Mark 9:24, and other examples show Jesus caring for poor sinners that are dazed, confused and in need of a king to lead them.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 12, 2008)

I think Peter said it well, pretty close to what the original post (OP) said:
2Pe 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, *give diligence to make your calling and election sure*: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

If I can quibble about one thing, it is this:


> Making sure that we are *doing *things, “according to the Bible”, and not “according to man’s opinion”, is another good way, to make sure, that you are really saved.


Since we are sinners, and we still constantly do things we ought not be doing, and since moralists everywhere pride themselves on how well they "DO the moral thing," even as found in the Bible's teachings, we are on surer ground to seek, by God's grace, to *believe* everything "according to the Bible," and not according to the doctrines and commandments of men.


----------



## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Nov 12, 2008)

In kind, I like where Jesus says that Many will come in My Name saying...

There are essentially two Jesus' out there...one teaches salvation by merit (something within one's self; ex. faith apart from regeneration) and then there is the Jesus of Grace alone...(the one is actually NO Jesus at all, of course).

The understanding of Grace alone and Election, is key. I personally have come to understand Total Depravity, and that without a proper understanding of it, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints cannot be comprehended. For instance, I know quite a few so-called "4 point Calvanists"... There isn't such an animal!! Generally, they HATE Limited Atonement. How can you have UNLIMITED Atonement? That is Universalism!

Anyway, I believe you can be assured of your salvation, and one should be constantly vigilant in reminding themselves, as the Spirit gives rememberance, of the Work of Christ on the Cross, and what that meant. And as Peter mentions, that be doing...it's basically the same as Faith worketh by Love. If you believe the Gospel beginning with Total inability/depravity, and understand your constant need for Christ's imputed righteousness, you will keep His commandments...and it's not about "did we not cast out demons in your name"? did we not heal the sick in your name?...etc. It is about WHEN did we do these things??? Give you to drink, give you clothing, when you were in prison we visited you???

When you have done it unto the least of these my bretheren, ye have done it unto me...Paul, Peter and the rest taught belief and profession of a particular doctrine, and the working out of the faith that the Spirit produces in the person.

Other than that, what good work must one DO to inherit eternal life? HMM??? I wonder...


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi TheFleshProfitethNothing

Nice to hear from you.

You said.........


> “How can you have UNLIMITED Atonement? That is Universalism!”



Well, my questioning of Limited Atonement, is a Biblical one.........


> 2 Peter 2:1
> “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”


This tells us, that the blood of Jesus, was shed for everyone that will ever be born:
(Including false prophets

So the blood, is available for them, if they believe.
-------------------------------------------------- 
As for predestination........


> Romans 8:29
> “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”


Through God’s foreknowledge, He is able to “predestinate”, those who He knows, will place saving faith in Christ.


----------



## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

stilllearning said:


> Hi TheFleshProfitethNothing
> 
> Nice to hear from you.
> 
> ...



Forgive me for asking, I want to make I understand what you're saying. Regarding atonement, are you saying that Christ died for those who will not be saved? And regarding predestination, are you saying that God kind of looks into the future to see who will choose Christ, and then chooses those people to be saved?


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi Calvinist Cowboy

You asked.........


> “Forgive me for asking, I want to make I understand what you're saying. Regarding atonement, are you saying that Christ died for those who will not be saved? And regarding predestination, are you saying that God kind of looks into the future to see who will choose Christ, and then chooses those people to be saved?”



That is pretty much the way I see, the Bibles teachings on these subjects.

Romans 11:33
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”


----------



## sotzo (Nov 12, 2008)

stilllearning said:


> Hi Calvinist Cowboy
> 
> You asked.........
> 
> ...




Don:

Are you sure you've chosen Christ? How do you know that your choosing of him has actually resulted in a strong enough faith that would cause God to choose you?


----------



## Kim G (Nov 12, 2008)

Just some quick advice (I'm not speaking to anyone in particular here):

Perhaps StillLearning doesn't realize what it means to be on a Reformed board. We can point out the issues with what he has said by pointing to the confessions, or, better yet, the Scriptures. He needs to know what is not allowed to be taught here. 

However, remember that we are all "Still Learning." I used to be an "independent fundamentalist" before becoming reformed, and there are still issues that I struggle with understanding completely.

Let's all be gracious, shall we? Perhaps the Lord may cause this conversation to profit everyone involved.


----------



## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Nov 12, 2008)

Yes, I used to be an unbeliever before God regenerated me...so I know what you mean...

Anywho...the Passage that is mentioned in Peter is simply stating that these men preach falsely even denying the blood of Christ...if you would remember, Paul said "ye are not your own, you have been bought with a price".

Taking that verse into consideration, that would mean all men have been bought, and we have no need to preach, nor even to believe the gospel...for salvation is universal. What Christ redeems, He owns...yet the Scripture states in Romans...if ye have not the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His. Which is it?

If you continue to read Peter about those false teachers, somewhere down in the passage, around 7ish verses you will see that Peter was using a bit of sarcasm to explain these teachers condition. They taught one thing, then contradicted themselves in another...Peter is just pointing it out. They say one thing, concerning Christ's sacrifice, and then teach to the contrary. IN other words...these false teachers make no sense and simply find themselves contradicting their own teaching.

They speak what they know not of, as if they know what they are talking about.

Well, wish I didn't have this headache, I might have explained stuff a bit better.

Remember, the Father Elected some in Christ...those Some are they which Christ seeked to save; He said, "All that the Father HAS given Me, WILL come to Me". That verse ALONE defines Limited Atonement.


----------



## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Nov 12, 2008)

Concerning Faith...

If not all men have faith, as mentioned in Thessalonians, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God...Where does this faith come from?

If it is indeed the substance of things assured of, and the evidence of things not yet seen, and if a man has even the faith of a grain of mustard seed (do you know how small that is?) He can say to this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea, and it will obey him...why is it so difficult for ALL to believe.

Lastly, If Christ died for all the sins of all mankind, did He miss the BIG one, from which all sin stems? UNBELIEF? 

If you say no, then why is it ALL men aren't coming to belief in Him?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 12, 2008)

2 Pet. 2:1 is not a verse that deals directly with the atonement, therefore it must be subservient to those that do so. Other verses dealing directly with the atonement exercise a controlling dominance over 2 Pet. 2:1, because God does not contradict himself in his own revelation; that is, 2 Pet. 2:1 must be the verse that is interpreted _in the light of clearer passages_.

And it is abundantly clear that there are a number of verses dealing directly with the atonement that teach us with precision and clarity for whom Christ did die. "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)

For whom does Jesus die?


> Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
> Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and *I lay down my life for the sheep*.
> Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and *they shall hear my voice*; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
> ...
> ...


Who does Jesus save?


> Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
> Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
> Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Of whom is Jesus a Mediator? And who does Jesus NOT pray for?


> Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
> Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


He prays for ALL whom the Father has given to him. He dies for ALL that the Father gave to him. He Mediates for ALL for whom he died.

*Therefore Jesus' atonement does not cleanse away the sin of those for whom he exercises no Mediation.*


----------



## Calvinist Cowboy (Nov 12, 2008)

Stilllearning, I just want to add that the atonement and predestination are works of God's grace. Grace is unmerited favor that God shows to us. If God "looks down the corridor of time" to see who will choose Him, and then chooses those people because He has forseen their faith, then that would mean that God is dependent upon us and our decision. Is God glorified by depending upon us? Rather, Paul exuberantly adores God in Romans 11:33-36 precisely because of that undeserved favor He has shown to us. Salvation is all of God and exists solely for the glory of God.

"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."

God's choice of us must come before our choice of Him. If it happens any other way, then in some manner we, and not God, should be glorified.


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 13, 2008)

Hi Kim G

You first said.......


> “Perhaps StillLearning doesn't realize what it means to be on a Reformed board”


Well, yes I do know where Reformed theology is coming from, and I have a lot of respect for it.

My view of Arminianism, is that it is “preaching works for salvation”, and I will have NOTHING to do with that.

But as you can see, I don’t follow the Calvinist party line either. I strive to be a Biblicist.
-------------------------------------------------- 
And no, I didn’t know, that certain things.....


> “were not allowed to be taught here”



Please forgive me.
-------------------------------------------------- 
The purpose of this particular thread, was to challenge some individuals, who may be trusting in the wrong things for their salvation, and not to challenge the status quo.



I look forward to a long and fruitful stay with all of you, if you will have me.


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 13, 2008)

Hello TheFleshProfitethNothing and Contra_Mundum

First of all, thank you for your civil responses, and detailed explanations. 

I understand what you are saying, and sometime in the future, I may find some more convincing Scriptures, to support my position.

But since I am new here, I had better back off, and view the lay of the land for a while.


See you later


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 13, 2008)

Hello Calvinist Cowboy

I wanted to get back to you, because something you said, reminded me of a Scripture.

You said.........
“......that would mean that God is dependent upon us and our decision. Is God glorified by depending upon us?


This reminded me of a passage, where Jesus says, that He is waiting on us.......


> Revelation 3:20
> “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”


Am I mis-reading this verse?




See you later


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 13, 2008)

Welcome brother;


I think your original post was helpful. Yes, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (for it is God that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure, by the way) and don't just assume you are saved. Amen to that. 

I take this as the intent of your original post and I applaud it. A great way to start on the PB.


Then you got sucked into questioning the 4th point of Calvinism which is a no-no here. We can differ greatly about our calvinism here but we all must be calvinistic, and 4 pointers are sub-calvinist. I think they probably let you into the PB because you are "still learning" but questioning the assumed basics (5 points, sola Scriptura) of the requirements for entry here is a way to get kicked out I believe. So, a word of advice is that some doctrines here are considered "settled" and it is a great place to do deeper into the doctrines of grace and to question aspects of these doctrines, but not to question the overall doctrine itself.


It's nice to have you here. I hope you stay a long time.


About Rev 3:20, no you are not misreading it. Jesus is very inviting to sinners and we do willfully come to Christ. We have human responsibility and God will call us into account for our actions. I can never know God's secret will in this life, so my duties are to repent and believe, trusting that if I close with Christ and choose Christ that means that God, in His secret will, has chosen me from before the foundation of the world.



About predestination: 

Can I suggest that you post a thread in the wading pool about what the Biblical word "foreknowledge" really means. Does it really mean that God looks forward into time and chooses those whom will choose Him, making God's choice continent on our choice? That would be an excellent post number 2 for you.

Also, please post another thread about what is the nature of the atonement and if this atonement is substitutionary, what does that exactly mean. Can it truly be substitutionary for everyone even if all are not saved?


God's richest blessings, brother.


----------



## sotzo (Nov 13, 2008)

Still Learning:

Your humility is something we can all benefit from. Looking forward to seeing you around here more!


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 13, 2008)

Hi Pergamum 

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## stilllearning (Nov 13, 2008)

Hi sotzo

Thanks for the kind words.

I have received many awards, for my humility, and have them prominently posted, all over my office. (Haha)


----------

