# Top five on Sovereign God!



## tdowns (Apr 8, 2008)

I love the list of verses on the Sovereignty of God that someone posted a while ago.(Would be great to see here again, for others, I've printed it)

The Molinism, Open Theism discussion won't go away, so, I want to memorize, at least five scriptures, to have on the tip of my tongue to move the conversation in a biblical direction.

What's the top five, that in context, not only support God's sovereignty, but in a way that defeats the Molinist/Open Theist?


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## danmpem (Apr 8, 2008)

tdowns007 said:


> What's the top five, that in context, not only support God's sovereignty, but in a way that defeats the Molinist/Open Theist?



As Calvinists, we'll _always_ be able to find verses that defeat Open Theism and all that, but we can't prove our way into someone's conscience - someone who does not want to believe in the sovereignty of God. While I completely believe that we should preach truth to any and all, I simply wish to state that just because we can give proof texts that trump the skeptics' arguments, they may still stand just as Pelagian as ever.


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## Poimen (Apr 8, 2008)

Trevor:

You should be aware that Molinism and Open Theism are not identical. While both strive to assert human freedom, Molinism upholds the omniscience of God whereas Open Theism explicitly denies it.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Apr 8, 2008)

Poimen said:


> You should be aware that Molinism and Open Theism are not identical. While both strive to assert human freedom, Molinism upholds the omniscience of God whereas Open Theism explicitly denies it.



Yes. But doesn't Molinism attempt to preserve libertarian free will by saying that God has "arranged the circumstances" through the _foresight_ of middle knowledge such that man's free-will choice is made certain?

If so, then it seems that verses showing God's sovereignty is not based on foresight but on his good pleasure (or decree) would counter Molinism.  But it is a bit of a sticky wicket due to the subtleties the Molinists use to maintain God's sovereignty. Molinism may be best countered with the evidence against libertarian free will -- which they are striving to preserve.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Apr 8, 2008)

I've always liked Job 38-41. It starts with: "Then the Lord answered Job out the the whirlwind, and said: Who is this who darkens My counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me." Job 38:1-3. From there He goes on to describe His, power, authority, and ownership of all things. And of course, His sovereignty...


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 8, 2008)

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases. Psalm 115:3


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 8, 2008)

Isaiah 29:16
You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?


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## ChristianHedonist (Apr 8, 2008)

Isaiah 46:9-10
"9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."


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## ChristianHedonist (Apr 8, 2008)

Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


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## A5pointer (Apr 8, 2008)

What text would we go to that shows God having planned and executing *all *that comes to pass? Some see God as only intervening on occasion.


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## ChristianHedonist (Apr 8, 2008)

The entire chapter of Romans 9.


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## A5pointer (Apr 8, 2008)

ChristianHedonist said:


> The entire chapter of Romans 9.



I here you but these types pretend it's not there or have cut it out with a knife. Anything in the old, Isaiah? Maybe proverbs, The lot is cast but every decision is of the Lord?


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## ChristianHedonist (Apr 8, 2008)

Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, when the Lord has not commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that woe and well-being proceed? (Lamentations 3:37-38, NKJV).

If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it? (Amos 3:6).

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightening for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries (Psalm 135:6-7). 

"My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure;"
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose [referring to Cyrus] from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it (Isaiah 46:10-11).



The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes (Proverbs 21:1). 

"The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom" (Proverbs 16:4 NKJV).


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## A5pointer (Apr 8, 2008)

Nebuchadnezzar, even though he seems to have it right can we proof text a guy who was just eating grass? Really, he is not a prophet, Can we do it?


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## A5pointer (Apr 8, 2008)

Yes, but it is narrative, not all characters in narrative are speaking a correct view of God. Don't get me wrong, I see him as speaking correctly but it is a view from outside that leads me to the conclusion. There is no reason to assume he speaks truths about God. Do you understand my thinking?


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## tdowns (Apr 8, 2008)

*Thanks Josh...and all...*

Great! I like starting with Genesis, and do that often, and I like the scriptures from throughout the bible, Old and New.

I also agree 100% with you Josh, it's not about, throwing out one verse, because, the discussion needs to go further, but it's a starting place.

I also agree, it's really about libertarian free will. They also, tend to state, it's the problem of Evil, why they must find some way out from the "Calvinist" world view, which, IN THEIR MIND, makes God responsible for Evil.

I also agree, it's God who needs to open minds, but, we are called, to stand against error, so, I want to be prepared, and be there with God's word, for those whose mind's are opened. Many true Christians, can have error in their thinking, and the Word of God, will ring true to the regenerate.

Thanks for the posts.

On Molinism vs Open Theism. I understand the distinction, but I find, it gets confused in people's minds.

For example:

The person I'm discussing these things with--who by the way, is a good thinker, loves God, fights for the Word of God being without error--is being persuaded by Craig. He says he is anti-open theism, but open to Molinism. 

The other day, he was stating, Molinism, as God knowing our every possible action--counter factuals--but not actually knowing exactly what we will do next...I believe that is at least a form of Open Theism. Correct? He was stating that as Molinism.

I understand Molinism, states God KNEW in His mind, every possible outcome, but then Willed the best outcome to happen.

So, in Molinism, He does know exactly what happens, from beginning to end, because He willed it to happen (he just had limited options due to libertarian free will). 

Whereas in Open Theism, God is disabled to the point, he can't even see the future, outside of being a great strategist.


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## reformedcop (Apr 8, 2008)

Psalm 50:10-12 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. *"If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine.*


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 8, 2008)

Weak analogies - feel free to edit:

Calvinism is like a famer that picked a field - plowed, groomed and planted it with corn, knowing beforehand that he would pick the corn out amongst the weeds that he kept under control so as to not allow it choke out the corn.

Molinism is like a farmer that saw some land, thought about the best crop to grow, then threw out corn with the mind that he would pick out the corn that was able to make itself grow from among the weeds.

Open Theism is like the farmer went insane.


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## tdowns (Apr 8, 2008)

*I agree!*

Once again, I agree 100%...that's how I see it...He is God!!!!!!!!! Worship and adore Him, Sing His Praise, Rejoice He is your King! And Thank Him He is in charge!

I agree with your statement, so much so, I have to quote other scriptures, in my mind, when discussing these things with others, the ones about gentleness, respect, long-suffering, praying....

Cuz, I tend to be the "Pull them pistols, or whistle dixie" sort. So I'm working on strong but gentle deliveries!


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## tdowns (Apr 8, 2008)

*Would you say that of Craig?*

Interesting, Josh. I would like to agree. But, I don't see people going after Craig with a Vengeance. or J.P. It seems they are almost lifted up, even in Reformed circles. And, how do you take what you're saying, along with the Westminster Standard, that says, these doctrines on the Sovereignty of God, are a "Great Mystery", and should be handled gently. Does that imply, we should allow people to struggle with it, rather it be emotionally, or intellectually?

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

Is it wrong, that great thinkers, want to sort out this area, to the best of their ability, to help them understand God more fully?

Open Theism, I understand, is much clearer heresy, but the Craig's, the Molinists, seem to be trying to uphold the attributes of God, and from what I've heard, Craig is constantly, upholding God's Holiness. Although, I have not heard that much of him.

I'd love to see what you are saying done, by thinkers greater than I, who would proclaim those errors with Sound Doctrine, and Sound Thinking.

Has Paul M. written anything, done his limb by limb removal, of the Molinist Position?

I've done the "He is King! Get over it!" And done some adequate rebuttals, so maybe, at this point, I should just let it lie. But they are both, searching, and want to come to a biblical understanding, and are reading reformed thought, as well as Craig.

So, I'm trying to help them along.


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## JM (Apr 8, 2008)

Here's a cheet sheet, I have a copy in my Bible:

Spiritual Deadness 

Genesis 2:16-17; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; John 3:5-7; Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13. 

Darkened Minds and Corrupt Hearts 

Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 4:17-19; Ephesians 5:8; Titus 1:15. 

Bondage to Sin and Satan 

John 8:34; John 8:44; Romans 6:20; Ephesians 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:19. 

Universal Bondage 

1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 130:3; Psalm 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-12; James 3:2; James 3:8; 1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10. 

Inability to Change 

Job 14:4; Jeremiah 23:13; Matthew 7:16-18; Matthew 12:33; John 6:44; John 6:65; Romans 11:35-36; 1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Corinthians 3:5. 

A Chosen People 

Deuteronomy 10:14-15; Psalm 33:12; Psalm 65:4; Psalm 106:5; Haggai 2:23; Matthew 11:27; Matthew 22:14; Matthew 22:22; Matthew 22:24; Matthew 24:31; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 8:33; Romans 11:28; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:8-9; Revelation 17:14. 

Election Not Based on Foreseen Responses 

Mark 13:20; John 15:16; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:27; Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; Philippians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:9; James 2:5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8. 

Election Precedes Salvation 

Acts 13:48; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 2:10. 

Election Based on Sovereign Mercy 

Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Matthew 20:15; Romans 9:10-24; Romans 11:4-6; Romans 11:33-36; Ephesians 1:5. 

Jesus Actually Saves 

Matthew 1:21; Luke 19:10; Acts 5:31; Romans 3:24-25; Romans 5:8-9; Romans 5:10; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 1:3-4; Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 1:3-4; Ephesians 2:15-16; Ephesians 5:25-26; Philippians 1:29; Colossians 1:13-14; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 Timothy 1:15; Titus 2:14; Titus 3:5-6; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 13:12; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 John 1:7. 

Jesus Fulfills the Eternal Covenant 

John 6:35-40; John 10:11; John 10:14-18; John 10:24-29; John 17:1-11; John 17:20; John 17:24-26; Romans 5:12; Romans 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:3-12. 

The Spirit Saves 

Romans 8:14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-13; 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 2 Corinthians 3:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18; 1 Peter 1:1-2. 

The Spirit Gives New Birth 

Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 1:12-13; John 3:3-8; John 5:21; 2 Corinthians 5:17-18; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:10; Colossians 2:13; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 5:4. 

The Spirit Reveals the Secrets of God 

Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 13:10-11; Matthew 13:16; Matthew 16:15-17; Luke 8:10; Luke 10:21; John 6:37; John 6:44-45; John 6:64-65; John 10:3-6; John 10:16; John 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:17-18. 

The Spirit Gives Faith and Repentance 

Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14; Acts 18:27; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:25-26. 

The Spirit Effectually Calls 

Romans 1:6-7; Romans 8:30; Romans 9:23-24; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 1 Corinthians 1:9; 1 Corinthians 1:23-31; Galatians 1:15-16; Ephesians 4:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 9:15; Jude 1:1; 1 Peter 1:15; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:3; Revelation 17:14. 

Salvation Given by a Sovereign God 

Isaiah 55:11; John 3:27; John 17:2; Romans 9:16; 1 Corinthians 3:6-7; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Philippians 2:12-13; James 1:18; 1 John 5:20.

Reactions: Like 1


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## tdowns (Apr 8, 2008)

*Amen!*

Thanks for your thoughts, Josh. Always much appreciated. The one thing I do hammer on constantly, is my thought, that all these false beliefs, are just the fruits of our sinful nature and PRIDE!...Not wanting to submit to the FULL AUTHORITY, of Mighty God. Like you said, the proof, and the reason for not believing, starts in Genesis. Pray for them.

Now, I'm off to a little camping trip with my two kids, our first overnighter in the new (very used, 1985, hope it makes it) RV.

Pray for us!


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## Poimen (Apr 8, 2008)

Gomarus said:


> Molinism may be best countered with the evidence against libertarian free will -- which they are striving to preserve.





Total depravity is not consistent with Molinism. Focus on that and everything else falls into place.


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## Craig (Apr 8, 2008)

Open Theism and Molinism rely on a philosophy not founded on Scripture...defeating the logic of these is harder than Arminianism...but Biblically, they fall just as hard as the limp-wristed theology of Arminians.


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## puritan lad (Apr 8, 2008)

Psalm 33:10-12 is a good one to refute the _"God is a gentleman who will never go against your free will"_ argument.

_"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!"_ (Psalms 33:10-12)


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## danmpem (Apr 8, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> ChristianHedonist said:
> 
> 
> > The entire chapter of Romans 9.
> ...



I agree with you, but I have used that verse when speaking with an Open Theist - one of my closest friends, actually. His response, while I do not agree with it at all and find no validity in it period, is one that is sadly shared with so many lay people in churches today, "That means that when a person makes a godly decision, it is of God because the wisdom came from God." But for the English translations that may say, "is God's decision" or something like that, he would say that God gets the glory for the decision that His children make.

...I know.


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## Iconoclast (Apr 8, 2008)

If you have time, begin reading in Chapter 28 of Deut then go all the way to this section of Deut 32;

I think Jonathan Edwards liked this passage


> 35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
> 
> 36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
> 
> ...


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