# What god do they worship?



## inspector (Jan 10, 2007)

I have seen a lot of people talking about the Muslims Allah and our One True God are not the same person. My question is: are the Jews worshipping the One True God?


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## Theoretical (Jan 10, 2007)

No, because they deny the Trinity.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 10, 2007)

[KJV]1 John 2:23[/KJV] - Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


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## Blueridge Believer (Jan 10, 2007)

What about Jews? They deny the Son as well as the Trinity as well. Muslims have a higher regard for Christ than they do. in my opinion, both are antichrist, so I'm not taking sides with either.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 10, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> What about Jews? They deny the Son as well as the Trinity as well. Muslims have a higher regard for Christ than they do. in my opinion, both are antichrist, so I'm not taking sides with either.



The question was "...are the Jews worshipping the One True God?"

Both previous answers were in the negative for the reason cited.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 10, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> The question was "...are the Jews worshipping the One True God?"
> 
> Both previous answers were in the negative for the reason cited.



...and what an unpopular stance this is among many I know. There have been a number of "poor Todd, he's such a bigot" shakings of the head while I explain the fact that the Jews today are worshipping a false god of their own imaginings.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 10, 2007)

inspector said:


> I have seen a lot of people talking about the Muslims Allah and our One True God are not the same person. My question is: are the Jews worshipping the One True God?



As Rich mentioned, if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father. So, no, they are not worshipping the God of the scriptures. They are breaking the second commandment and have invented a God of their own imaginations.


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## Herald (Jan 10, 2007)

to what Scott and Rich said.


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## Pergamum (Jan 10, 2007)

This is a matter of semantics. Yes, the worship the same God but don't know the path and therefore are hellbound. They aim and miss him. They see the passages in the OT about Jehovah but do not worship him aright. Therefore it is no true worship.


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## Blue Tick (Jan 10, 2007)

How can the Jews or a Jew worship God if they don't have Christ? If they don't have Christ they are dead in their sins. Therefore, the wrath of God abides on them. As stated above they have a false image of God.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 10, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> This is a matter of semantics. Yes, the worship the same God but don't know the path and therefore are hellbound. They aim and miss him. They see the passages in the OT about Jehovah but do not worship him aright. Therefore it is no true worship.



This is the usual response when I am discussing this with someone. "Yes, they worship the same God, but they do it wrongly" is what I'm always told. 

However, the god they worship HAS NO SON. 

They have not only worshipped him wrongly, but they have defaced Him, demeaned Him, and devalued the God of the Bible. They worship a FALSE god therefore. There is no call for us to bend over backwards to make it appear that Jews are "merely mistaken". They have defined God differently, and therefore, their object of worship is a false idol.


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## Pergamum (Jan 10, 2007)

Toddpedler;

And this is the usual response that I get too. 

Then, the party sometimes goes on to conclude that Arminains worship a different God too because they define him differently.



Again, this is mere semantics. What does it matter if they are hellbound for worshipping a different God or trying to render false worship to the true God?


Jesus quotes a great deal of the OT concerning God the Father.


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## Pergamum (Jan 10, 2007)

For that matter an intellectually orthodox Calvinist who adheres to the WCF but is ultimately lost (because his "faith" was no true faith but only intellectual assent) also worships a false God.


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## Blue Tick (Jan 10, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> For that matter an intellectually orthodox Calvinist who adheres to the WCF but is ultimately lost (because his "faith" was no true faith but only intellectual assent) also worships a false God.




Trevor,

Are you implying that someone has a better chance of being regenerate if they are a orthodox Jew; then someone who adheres to the WCF and confesses Christ?

Your above statement does not make sense. First you assume that the orthodox Calvinist is a Christian because it promotes his intellectual agenda. Second, you are implying that you know the "real heart" of a confessional Christian. However, your saying that the Jew(s) just worship God in a misdirected manner and therefore are still worshipping the same God. How is this so? 

They deny Christ. If they deny Christ and claim to serve God then they have a false image of God.

Also, what do you mean by semantics? Semantics are important. If we don't define our terms, we might as well hold hands with all of the cults.


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## Pergamum (Jan 10, 2007)

Sorry, I thought I made sense..but here goes the explanation again:


Every unsaved person worships a false God. Whether a Jew or an unsaved person who believes in Calvinism (but yet is unregenerate). Every person that goes to hell worships a false God regardless of how close or far from true Christian doctrine in a regenerate soul. 


This seems to be an issue that is largely of how you define things (semantics). If I say that the Jews falsely worship the true God and do not understand him fully, this has the same practical effect of saying that they worship a false God.


I hope this time it was clearer.


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## turmeric (Jan 10, 2007)

[bible]Romans 10:1-4[/bible]


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## Bandguy (Jan 10, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Toddpedler;
> 
> And this is the usual response that I get too.
> 
> ...



Arminians don't even worship God at all. They worship themselves and their own righteousness.


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## Arch2k (Jan 10, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> No, because they deny the Trinity.


 


Bandguy said:


> Arminians don't even worship God at all. They worship themselves and their own righteousness.


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## inspector (Jan 10, 2007)

Who is God? Jesus is God. Who do the Jews reject? They reject Jesus who is God. How are they worshipping the person that they reject? The Jews do not worship the One True God.

This would be a reasonable thing to say in light of all that has been said here?


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## Pergamum (Jan 11, 2007)

Joseph, you wrote:

_Arminians don't even worship God at all. They worship themselves and their own righteousness._




That may be true for the consistent Pelagians, but how many thorough-going Pelagians do you usually meet? Usually there are SAVED Christians who have but a small grasp on theology. They are saved by faith in Christ, but get the later details wrong. Many of them truly trust in Christ for salvation, even though they assert, "Yes, but I had to have faith before God saved me.."


These Arminians (the inconsistent..saved ones) worship the true God.





Also, the OT God fearers and many in our day try to worship a God they do not understand. Taken from one aspect, they worship a false God - taken from another aspect they try to render worship to the true God by the wrong means:

John 4:

Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 
22 
*You people worship what you do not understand*; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews. 
23 
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. 
24 
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth." 



Also, there were many Gentile God-fearers who prayed to the Father it seemed but did not have the Son. Thus, they were worshipping the Father, but not by the approved means. Thus their worship was mis-directed and their God incomplete. Whether you call this a false God or whether you call this wrong worship to the true God does not matter. Again, this is largely a matter of semantics.



Also, the folks who offered strange fire to the Lord and were killed in the OT knew at least some of the true God and were trying to worship Him - but in a wrong way.


I am in favor of referring to the worship of the Jews as being through the wrong means rather than to the wrong address..for they try to worship the Father but not through God's appointed channel - Christ.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 11, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> For that matter an intellectually orthodox Calvinist who adheres to the WCF but is ultimately lost (because his "faith" was no true faith but only intellectual assent) also worships a false God.



Trevor,

Let's just write this:

For that matter an ____ _____ ______who adheres to ________ but is ultimately lost (because his "faith" was no true faith but only ______ ________) also worships a false God.

Fill in the blanks with anything you would like and you have a correct statement.

Ultimately lost = no true faith = worship of a false God


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 11, 2007)

By the way, let's not turn this into another thread about Arminians. The OP was about Jews and Muslims.


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## Pergamum (Jan 11, 2007)

Yes, exactly Rich, I agree with your last two posts...


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 11, 2007)

So can we say that worshipping a false God is the unpardonable sin?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 16, 2007)

There is a controversial book written by a Westminster graduate named Dr. Robert Morey called "Islamic Invasion" in which he tears Islam a new one starting with their historical pagan origins and the demonic practices of ancient Arabia.

He asserts quite reasonably that Allah is derived from an ancient Arab moon god, thus the cresent so visible in Islam.

Monotheism was a political gambit for power by Muhammad and not a spiritual one, unless he was possessed that is.

The FBI has had Morey's California church on surveilance due to threats from Muslim terrorists who have actually threatened his life for writing the book.


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## Blue Tick (Jan 16, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> There is a controversial book written by a Westminster graduate named Dr. Robert Morey called "Islamic Invasion" in which he tears Islam a new one starting with their historical pagan origins and the demonic practices of ancient Arabia.
> 
> He asserts quite reasonably that Allah is derived from an ancient Arab moon god, thus the cresent so visible in Islam.
> 
> ...


!

Wow! I didn't know Morey has had threats on his life. That's crazy!


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