# Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire



## heartoflesh (Jan 11, 2005)

By Jim Cymbala

Has anyone read this book? Comments?

The main thing that worries me is the dichotomy he creates between "sound doctrine" and "the movement of the Spirit".


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

I read it ages ago. Pumped me up then. I'd probably not like it now. That's of no help to you, though.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 11, 2005)

I also read this book years ago. I thought it was boring then. 

A bit of an anecdote, the author Jim Cymbala pastors a popular church in the city. I've visited a number of times with friends who are members. During one "service" Rev. Cymbala derided Calvinists and told the congregation that if they ever met a Calvinist that they should ask them to try to explain the Limited Atonement. I was like, "Over here in the balcony! Please form a single file!"


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## Authorised (Jan 11, 2005)

> "Over here in the balcony! Please form a single file!"




Probably would've been a lot more instructive too.

We've turned our comparative government class into Theology 101. I often hear my atheist friends defend Calvinism as the only possible Biblical position against other Arminian Christians who try to convert them. I sit back and watch aghast as atheists argue my point of view sucessfully against Christians who have no idea where they are. What are they being taught at church!? Atheists should not be able to argue and exegete scripture more effectively than any Christian.


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 11, 2005)

Aaron, I must say, I'm a bit freaked out...(shudders).

Alas, even the world sees the flaws of the impotent God portrayed in ideology of Arminius & Wesley...


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## turmeric (Jan 11, 2005)

I've long thought that the world is ready for Calvinism - by now humanism is getting harder & harder to defend. Good to hear from you, Rick.


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## heartoflesh (Jan 11, 2005)

Our church is now undertaking a capital campaign to expand our building, and last Sunday they passed out a copy of this book to every family. Now during Sunday school time we are supposed to be discussing the book and praying. Why is it that a church can't pray together anymore without one of these books?


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## Authorised (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist_
> 
> 
> Aaron, I must say, I'm a bit freaked out...(shudders).
> ...




Yes, I was a little worried too. I am aware that the Calvinism the atheists know is my teaching over several months, though none have believed. Yet I think I've been pretty clear about grace, mercy, judgment, and hell, a topic most germane to their ultimate destination. I begin to wonder if Calvinism just isn't one logical step away from atheism.

I mention that they are better logicians to the uneducated Christian's shame.


And yeah, I'm sick of the prayer meetings which need a book in order to feel able to pray. 

I also felt a little uneasy in my Bible Church because the pastor would take requests and then pray, reading down a written list as we all bowed our heads. That's not going to edify anyone, and especially not me.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 11, 2005)

I read it a long time ago, thought it was neat, probably wouldn't like it now.


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## Authorised (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> I've long thought that the world is ready for Calvinism - by now humanism is getting harder & harder to defend. Good to hear from you, Rick.




I hope so. Maybe some have realized that just maybe we're not as good as we thought we were. 

So far, Calvinism is the only sufficient way to avoid giving man too much self-glory, but which also makes us more than a byproduct of a chance cosmic fart. You'd think that God created us or something...


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

> I also felt a little uneasy in my Bible Church because the pastor would take requests and then pray, reading down a written list as we all bowed our heads. That's not going to edify anyone, and especially not me.



Who cares if a pastor does this? Supplication, man. It's our duty and privelage because it's humiliating, not because it's edifying. We should be bearing up one another's burdens, and why not write them down and then bring prayer before God?


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Ian,

Your anecdote was hilarious, by the way.

I remember marvelling at how the Choir, Mrs. Cymbala directing, would pray for 6 hours and rehearse for 27 minutes, or whatever. 

As it turns out, we can do without the choir altogether.


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## turmeric (Jan 12, 2005)

It's SNOWING man-centered theology!
Now you can read-
Experiencing God/Henry Blackaby
God-Chasers/Tommy Tenney
Prayer of Jabez/Bruce Wilkinson
Purpose Driven Fill in the Blank/Rick Warren
Fresh Drivel/Jim Cymbala

Oh, and I almost left Tim LaHaye's series behind!

(Self-Righteousness Alert!)

[Edited on 12-1-2005 by turmeric]


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## Ianterrell (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> 
> 
> > "Over here in the balcony! Please form a single file!"
> ...



Right I've seen similar things. Apparently God's nature should be consistently dominant or consistently passive for Non-Christians. They get it, why can't our Arminian buddies get it?


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## Ianterrell (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> Ian,
> 
> Your anecdote was hilarious, by the way.
> ...



Right, they have an awesome choir though. No denying that. 

Aaron,

What's wrong with reading prayer requests?


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## Authorised (Jan 12, 2005)

"What's wrong with reading prayer requests?"

Maybe the nonchalance in how it was done was more real to me than my post indicated. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I notice that those who pray in that matter will often talk a loooooot faster when there is a longer list. And if the pastor starts sounding like Ben Stein, it's might call the sincerity into question.

The worst is when someone prays a "short" prayer before mealtime and then afterwards someone always provides a post-mortem about how they like a short prayer before mealtime.


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## ARStager (Jan 12, 2005)

Aaron:

I am just having a hard time identifying with your pet peeves. I'm all about short prayers at mealtime, too. Especially when there's a medium-rare staring me in the face. God knows it's medium rare, so thank him, be of good cheer, and dig in! 

All of the weighing and balancing of sincerity seems itself pretty incsincere. "Mood" or "length" will not always be the barometer of appropriate prayer. This is the sort of subjectivity that kind of makes me squirm a bit...simply because I was so rehearsed and theatrical about my "moods" and "length" for so long.


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## Authorised (Jan 12, 2005)

I wasn't critisizing the short prayer, I was critisizing the unecessary commentary.


I don't those are pet peeves, really...


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## alwaysreforming (Jan 12, 2005)

I read the book a few years ago, and had mixed feelings about it. It seems, though, that Pastor Cymbala is a very sincere man and gives his whole life to God's work. I was humbled at hearing his passion and energy for the lost. His zeal surpasses mine many-fold. I'm disappointed to hear him deriding Calvinism, however.

I'm also curious as to everyone's opinions on the written prayer requests topic that was brought up. Should we move it to a new thread and continue it there?


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