# Campbellites and Restorationists.



## MrMerlin777 (Jun 4, 2009)

A very old friend of mine that I grew up with is now a Campbellite (COC) pastor. He's bought their "bill o' goods" hook line and sinker. 

Has anyone here had any practical experience dealing with the conversations that inevitably come up with these types?

I've read a bit about their practices and doctrines but have no practical experience dealing with them (even though my wife's favorite cousin is also a Campbellite pastor).

Any advice and personal stories regarding this would be very helpful.

Thanks

Don.


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## Kevin (Jun 4, 2009)

Don, A fellow board member is a PCA pastor (Stephan) and he was minister in that sect prior to becoming reformed.

I haven't seen Stephan posting in a few months, but I have to call him later today on another matter so I will ask him to reply.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

I grew up in the Church of Christ ( the non-instrumentalists ). What sort of questions are you anticipating?


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## Bookmeister (Jun 4, 2009)

I went to a "Christian Church" undergrad school and have experiences galore in conversing with them. What would you like to know?
They are very sincere people but have some wacky beliefs. They do teach baptismal regeneration while actively denying it at the same time. The course work was not very rigorous and the level of education most pastors have in that denomination is very poor. They do not expose themselves to opposing viewpoints very often, except whenever I would speak up in class, I had a captive audience.
They say they are not a denomination, they are, they say they have "no creed but Christ" and look at you funny when you point out that is a creed. 
All in all not a very logical bunch. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. Nice bunch of guys in general though.


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## Knoxienne (Jun 4, 2009)

I had a childhood friend who converted to Campbellism as a young adult. It really took a toll on our friendship since we could not discuss theological issues without ending up arguing about the meaning of certain words (like faith) and scriptures about baptism, and who was really saved and who wasn't because they weren't part of a Campbellite "church". 

The last time I talked to her, I had been studying the doctrines of grace and had been in an OPC for some time. She had been in Campbellism for about 10 years and I basically gave her the gospel, even telling her that even OT saints like Abraham were saved by faith - not sacrifices, which she had been taught. I told her the law was never designed to save, and you can't add to Christ's righteous life and the finished work of Christ on the cross. I think, due to my Calvinistic cage stage, I even discussed limited atonement with her to explain that Christ didn't make salvation possible for everyone, but He accomplished it for his Elect People - and that Israel is God's People, much bigger than just a little plot of land in the Middle East. She actually was open and listened, which was helpful and after a long period of silence on the phone, she said to me, "If what you're saying is right, I've been wrong and taught wrong for 10 years". I was thankful to hear her say that (although I know it must have been painful for her) and I pray the Lord used that phone conversation to help her to understand the gospel and get out of that bondage she was in. She had a lot of friends there and I know if she eventually did leave it must have been hard. 

What really helped me with my friend was showing her the continuity of the OT and the NT - that the bible is one book about God's covenant with his people. That was more fruitful than arguing about baptism, because we'd always go 'round and 'round. Because I've found that if they can understand that the bible is one book about salvation by grace alone through faith alone, that can straighten other issues out.

I hope that helps! I will continue to pray for your friend, as I understand the pain of trying to reach people trapped in this.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

Regarding the Church of Christ:

As I have said before, you can't wisely say that 'The Church of Christ believes this. . .' There is a great deal of variety within the movement.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 4, 2009)

I attended a Campbellite Church from 1994-1996. This Church was of the "non-denominational, we are just a Christian Church and not a denomination" denominational variety.

I guess it will depend upon the variety of Church he is a member of.

Most members (including the ministers of these Churches) that I have met are doctrinally ignorant and naive. They claim to have "no creed but Christ" and to avoid having any kind of creed they claim to "speak only where the Bible speaks".

My experience is that just about anything goes except:
1. You must be immersed to be saved.

I think the fundamental place to show how inconsistent this position is, is to point to the unity of the faith in Ephesians 6. A Church that refuses to confess what the Scriptures principally teach about the major doctrinal headings is a Church that has just slid its Creed under the door without you ever getting to look at it. "My pastor just preaches the Bible..." is code for "I don't know what the Bible teaches and the Church historically can't define that but whatever my Pastor tells me the Bible teaches must be what the Bible teaches because he's using the Bible when he teaches it...."

If you can get people to see how arrogant they are that nobody has a clue what the Scirptures teach beside themselves then it might help.


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## Jeff Allen (Jun 4, 2009)

*Restorationist Church*

First of all calling them "Campbellites" is upsetting to them. They see themselves are just Christians , some feel they are the only "Christians" I was raised in the Church of Christ. I was watching a Billy Graham crusade and I asked my parents where the converts were getting baptized. I did not see any water . I was "baptism regenarated". Thats what I was told afterwards as a 10 year old.

I find them very hard to talk too. On baptism I ask? Would you baptize someone who had not repented and did not have a testomony of Christ as their Saviior? Of course they say no. Then I say that if a person has repented and believes in Christ, they are already regenarate as only the Holy Spirit can lead someone to that point.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

Johnny is right about the title 'Campbellites'. If you want to have an open dialogue avoid that term at all costs. It isn't really accurate anyway.


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## Jeff Allen (Jun 4, 2009)

*church of Christ*

I once saw my father go balistic when a baptist used the term "Campbellite" while talking to him.

Isn't it standard research protocol that we must refer to people in the same way how they perceive themselves?

Would you say Susan Boyles is a papist instead of Roman Catholic?

Just my 2 cents


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## Knoxienne (Jun 4, 2009)

What should people who adhere to those teachings be called? I figured it was offensive to people who are in that organization, but I've heard other pastors, elders and such use that term, because of its origins. I never called my friend that, just using it in the last few years to describe the organization. However, people in the organization do need to know about the errors of Campbell that led to its establishment just as JW's need to know about Charles Taze Russell's errors. 

I don't use the term to be nasty, any more than when I use the terms Romanist and Romanism to be nasty toward Roman Catholics. It's just that catholicism refers to the universal church, and Roman Catholicism is not Christian. 

For the same reason I just don't believe we should be calling COCers Christians or calling their church the Church of Christ.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> What should people who adhere to those teachings be called? I figured it was offensive to people who are in that organization, but I've heard other pastors, elders and such use that term, because of its origins. I never called my friend that, just using it in the last few years to describe the organization.
> 
> I just don't believe we should be calling them Christians or calling their church the Church of Christ.




Why not? A great many of them are Christians. A great many in the movement today do not hold to baptismal regeneration. If they attend a Church of Christ then call it that. Most members of that movement are merely Arminians in a church that is weak on doctrine and has some aberrant ideas. But, to claim that they are not Christians is something I would not do. Only God knows that. There are some groups that do hold to strict baptismal regeneration. But, they are a shrinking minority on the whole.


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## Knoxienne (Jun 4, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> > What should people who adhere to those teachings be called? I figured it was offensive to people who are in that organization, but I've heard other pastors, elders and such use that term, because of its origins. I never called my friend that, just using it in the last few years to describe the organization.
> ...



Okay. I did not know that - that not all believe in BR. When I visited my friends' church, they were very kind to me and believed in living in a godly way and loved the Bible. Come to think of it, there was a man who gave sermons frequently and he had a lot of good things to teach despite his baptismal regeneration teaching. There was still some valuable teaching where the scriptures were consistent with some things he taught.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > Knoxienne said:
> ...



There was at time when that was the dominant view. That was in the early and mid 1900's. Since then there has been a lot of moderation and diversification within the movement. If you are not 'plugged in' to the movement it is very easy to make generalisations based upon old data. Having my entire family and most of my friends that I grew up with in the movement keeps me well informed 

The movement away from baptismal regeneration is causing some real flare ups in some locales. A few of the 'preacher training schools' are hopping mad about it. These are not universities or seminaries, but are training schools. One of the most virulent in standing up for the old ways is the Memphis School of Preaching. The further you get from there and a couple of other schools the less of that stance you will find, unless the minister comes from one of those institutions.


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## Knoxienne (Jun 4, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> > LawrenceU said:
> ...



Yes, now that I think of it Max Lucado was COC. And there was a big uproar about him in the COC awhile back.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

There still is. And, that is just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Jeff Allen (Jun 4, 2009)

*Labels*

I did not intend to offend anyone or mean to imply that some people are insensitive. I think people on this board try very hard to teach the truth in kindness.

Since the "restoration" movement has gone is so many different ways , it is much easier to call them "Campbellites" 

But just don't ask someone "by the way, Which of the many campbellite churches do you belong to?"


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## Knoxienne (Jun 4, 2009)

Johnny DeFrange said:


> I did not intend to offend anyone or mean to imply that some people are insensitive. I think people on this board try very hard to teach the truth in kindness.
> 
> Since the "restoration" movement has gone is so many different ways , it is much easier to call them "Campbellites"
> 
> But just don't ask someone "by the way, Which of the many campbellite churches do you belong to?"



Never have, nor would I.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jun 4, 2009)

When spoken to about the Reformation this friend of mine started speaking ill of it and began spouting off about the "Restoration". I believe that he is a pretty "dyed in the wool" type who follows the teachings of Campbell, Campbell, Stone, et al.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 4, 2009)

The usual belief among traditional American Restoration Movement folks is that Reformation was a weak attempt at what Stone, Campbell, et al. accomplished. They tend to view it as a well intended attempt that continued to keep a lot of bad stuff from Rome. 'You can't reform sin and make in into holiness.' And, as far as an isolated quote that is right. But, that is not what happened in the Reformation, as well we know. They will often point to the almost instant divisions that came about among the churches of the Reformation. They will normally hang this on the 'man made creeds'. They really mean confessions, not creeds.

How to get around it? Forget about the Reformation and its history! Seriously, in that setting merely study the Scripture. That is what will open their eyes, not history.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 4, 2009)

For the record, I only called them Campbellite as a broad "heading" even as I call certain trains of thought "Semi-Pelagian" or "Arminian". I personally would not introduce myself as a Calvinist but don't get alarmed if people broadly refer to what I believe as Calvinistic. I realize most of the people in the movements don't call themselves by the categorical name but that doesn't mean categories aren't useful every once in a while to simplify the conversation.

I guess the title of the thread could have been "I have a friend who is part of a non-denominationa" (Oops the title got cut off.

Then the opening post could have included an elaborate description of the beliefs of the Church this fellow joined. After all that, somebody might have noted: "Boy, that sounds like a Campbellite Church."

Um, yes, but don't use that word....


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## MrMerlin777 (Jun 4, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> The usual belief among traditional American Restoration Movement folks is that Reformation was a weak attempt at what Stone, Campbell, et al. accomplished. They tend to view it as a well intended attempt that continued to keep a lot of bad stuff from Rome. 'You can't reform sin and make in into holiness.' And, as far as an isolated quote that is right. But, that is not what happened in the Reformation, as well we know. They will often point to the almost instant divisions that came about among the churches of the Reformation. They will normally hang this on the 'man made creeds'. They really mean confessions, not creeds.
> 
> How to get around it? Forget about the Reformation and its history! Seriously, in that setting merely study the Scripture. That is what will open their eyes, not history.




That's just about exactly what my friend believes. He preaches at a church in Alabama. When denominations etc have been discussed between us I've noted that I wish only to be called a Christian but if a label must be affixed I am closest to a Reformed Presbyterian with some Anglican leanings, to which he replied," And Reformed would mean?"


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## Jeff Allen (Jun 4, 2009)

*My fondest memory as a Campbellite*

The Civils Rights movement came to our little southern town in the mid 1960's
and our white only public school was forced to take in some black kids. The town was in turmoil. The baptist church set up a white only private school immediately.

My fifth grade Sunday school teacher was also my fifth grade school teacher.
In front of the whole church she mentioned what was going to happen the next day at school and she had the church sing " Jesus loves the Little Children."

It was a moment of true Christianity that I will never forget. During that period of turmoil I witnessed several examples of true Christians. Sad to say none from my adult family members.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jun 4, 2009)

Johnny DeFrange said:


> The Civils Rights movement came to our little southern town in the mid 1960's
> and our white only public school was forced to take in some black kids. The town was in turmoil. The baptist church set up a white only private school immediately.
> 
> My fifth grade Sunday school teacher was also my fifth grade school teacher.
> ...




I'm sure there are true believers in "Campbellite" assemblies, just as I'm sure there are non believers in Reformed assemblies.

Jesus Loves The Little Children was a favorite of my grandmother (now with the Lord). She sang it to my brother and I when we were little. She was brought up in The Old German Baptist Brethren Church.


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## KMK (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks to all. This has been a very profitable thread for me.


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## BoldBeliever (Jul 25, 2009)

I ran across one of those CoC folk the day before I found this board; in fact, I came here partly because of them, because when I started looking fo rinfo on the CoC, the Puritan Board came up. The person I ran across sounded like a cultist, with a canned answer for everything. Not for me. I still have the CD he gave me in my can. The heat has probably distorted it by now. (I'd consider that Providential.)


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## Grillsy (Jul 25, 2009)

BoldBeliever said:


> I ran across one of those CoC folk the day before I found this board; in fact, I came here partly because of them, because when I started looking fo rinfo on the CoC, the Puritan Board came up. The person I ran across sounded like a cultist, with a canned answer for everything. Not for me. I still have the CD he gave me in my can. The heat has probably distorted it by now. (I'd consider that Providential.)



Keep in mind, doctrinally the speaking the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ are very similar. Although the CoC tend to be non-instrumentalists the farther South you go.
I hold two Biblical studies degrees from a Campbellite university (sorry I am using the term purely for clarification). 
They are an unimaginably dangerous group. The speak all manner of false things about Church history. There doctrine is certainly damning. But they growing by leaps and bounds. Second only to the Mormons in this country.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 25, 2009)

As these like to quote Eph. 5:19, "making melody with your heart to the Lord," as justification for their non-instrumental position (with which some Presbyterians, including Girardeau, agree), ask when was the last time they sung a Psalm.

I don’t mean to make this a point of argument, but of discussion.

The “Restorationist” idea of a New Testament Church is defective, but has similarities with those who desire a Regulative Principle, whole Bible church. Introduce your friend to the Regulative Principle as it applies to doctrine, worship, government and discipline.

Of course it is impossible to operate without some sort of implicit creed. Demonstrate he has one, and the necessity of summarizing what the Bible teaches. Is that not what preaching does?

Keep the conversation going and plant seeds. These may not yield fruit immediately; but the Holy Spirit can bring these things to mind when he is ready to work with the one who is closed minded today. Keep the conversation friendly, and move on when the friend becomes defensive. Wait for another calmer opportunity.


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## Contra Marcion (Jul 25, 2009)

I also grew up in the COC, and remember very clearly being taught that Billy Graham was "sending people off to hell" because he did not require converts to be immediately baptized by immersion. 

Some of the various doctrines I had pounded into me:

1. We are not the only Christians, but we are Christians ONLY. 

2. Baptism by immersion FOR the forgiveness of sins IS that moment at which you are forgiven of past sins. (They love Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16)

3. Salvation is dependent upon continued obedience. (They'll cite Hebrews 6 and John 15) 

4. No congregation of believers may have a non-Biblical name (i.e., Prebyterian, Baptist, etc. Church)

5. We refer to church BUILDINGS when referring to a man-made structure, never a CHURCH. 

6. There are Christians, and then there are THE DENOMINATIONS. 

7. We make music with our voices and our hearts (Eph. 5:19), not "unauthorized" instruments. (Note: As previously discussed in this thread, the COC largely teaches that there is a huge wall between Malachi and Matthew, and nothing in the OT may be used for authority in "New Testament" worship. Therefore instruments are out, despite David's prescription of them.) 

Last of all, when I left for Basic Training in 1992, I was admonished by my elders not let them put "Protestant" on my dog tags, but to insist that they say "Church of Christ", lest I be confused with those who "practice the religions of men". 

My brother went to Oklahoma Christian University, and is still a minister in the COC.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Grillsy (Jul 25, 2009)

Contra Marcion said:


> I also grew up in the COC, and remember very clearly being taught that Billy Graham was "sending people off to hell" because he did not require converts to be immediately baptized by immersion.
> 
> Some of the various doctrines I had pounded into me:
> 
> ...



Exactly. You know exactly what it is like. I really think this group is every bit as dangerous as the Mormons or JWs. 
The acceptance of the Trinity is a fairly recent development in Restorationist history. It is startling to learn the roots of the group but it would very profitable to read up on.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 25, 2009)

Contra Marcion said:


> I also grew up in the COC, and remember very clearly being taught that Billy Graham was "sending people off to hell" because he did not require converts to be immediately baptized by immersion.
> 
> Some of the various doctrines I had pounded into me:
> 
> ...



Jacob, 
We could be twins. My brother is also a minister. My dog tags, however, say 'Protestant', much to the consternation of some in my family. I still remember when I was confronted about it. "Hey, I didn't punch them!"


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## Contra Marcion (Jul 26, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Contra Marcion said:
> 
> 
> > I also grew up in the COC, and remember very clearly being taught that Billy Graham was "sending people off to hell" because he did not require converts to be immediately baptized by immersion.
> ...




I had mine re-done when I finally came to know Christ and His Gospel! I am now proudly a "Protestant"!


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