# The Presbyterian Church and "programs"



## ReformedWretch (Jul 3, 2005)

Started to discuss this in another thread but figured I should start my own thread on it. So here goes!

While talking to a lady that works with me at Wal*Mart she mentioned that she was going to the local "Evangelica Free" church because they offer free Christian Counseling for her and her children. I wanted so badly to offer her something like that at my home Church but really couldn't. Don't get me wrong, our pastor is a wonderful, Godly man, he has office hours so I suppose I could have said that, but she seemed very escited to be offered free counseling services.

Here lies my issue with the Presbyterian church after months of attending. You guys may be ready to jump me after all of this so I ask you to be gracious.

1) The only weekly service we have is on Sunday mornings. While I understand that services are seen as required by the session, I still long for more meetings! I so miss Sunday nights, and Wednesday night services. Those services strengthened me so much. Our Church does offer a Sunday evening service once a month at the Pastors house that is supposed to be an outreach to the community. No one from the community ever comes though. We also have a "mens" study once a month on Wednesday evening...so far five has been the most we've ever had including the Pastor!

2) We have no "youth group" to offer either. I spoke to the pastor about a youth group and fully understand his reasoning (it's the parents job to raise the child in the Lord) but I still feel something is needed.

3) Counseling etc. services; While I know our main concern is preaching the word in truth, it almost seems to me that the elect of God are converted in Evangelical Churches and then move on to Presbyterian churches when they realize they are not growing. Isn't there something *WE* could to avoid this? I mean I wish so badly I would have grown up Presbyterian, but then if I did I wouldn't be asking these questions would I?

Ok.....thoughts?


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## Puddleglum (Jul 3, 2005)

I can somewhat understand where you're coming from; my church has an evening service, but we don't have a mid-week meeting (well, during the school year, there's a Bible study in the mornings, but I - like most people - can't attend). I really miss the prayer meeting/Bible study that my last church had. 

As to what to do about the whole thing . . . would it be possible for YOU to start something? At our church, the view is that we're "Sabbath-oriented", so the elders will make sure we've got the services on Sunday, but outside of that, they aren't trying to start special meetings or programs - though if we want to, we can, and there's a process for bringing the idea to the session, and getting their approval (and help). I'm not sure how your church works . . . 

At least for something on Sunday evening, or a mid-week meeting, I'd see if you could do something about it - offer to host & lead a Bible study, maybe. Then again, I don't know how it would work with your job . . . 

(Presbyterians take getting used to - be patient with yourself!)


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 3, 2005)

I plan on talking with my pastor. Once we start the new job I am *HOPING* that we can make the Wednesday meeting every week even if we have to have them in our home. 

We will see...


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 3, 2005)

We have a bit more than your church going on during the week when it comes to "programs," but not nearly as much as your run-of-the-mill SBC or other seeker sensitive church. Extra-Sabbath day activities are definitely good, but I think there is room for things to easily get out of hand in that regard.


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 3, 2005)

I believe it would be easy to get out of hand, no doubt about that! But I miss more services, badly.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 3, 2005)

Adam,
I'm glad you like the church you're at. I personally can't understand why there isn't more going on there, I mean as far as a full plate on Sunday (AM/PM worship). And why not a mid-week prayer meeting? I'd have a meeting if I was the only one there (as pastor)... 

I think a good beginning is volunteering yourself to get stuff going. So many people complain about stuff that's missing (I'm not referring to you, brother). So they go someplace else that has volunteers to get the stuff going. In other words, they complain that others aren't starting things so they can get in on it.

I think a big problem in all churches (generally) is that church isn't central to life. I mean that because God isn't central, then the church ceases to be at the center of communal life as well. Now in the doctrine-dry church, they put tons of effort into a bunch of superfluous programs that fill the need for "community," but usually at the expense of hard-hitting teaching, because that will empty the pews and depopulate the programs. And in the doctrine-rich church, you have hard-core family and church oriented people, who would like to have more "stuff" going on, but who can hardly keep their head above water financially and devote time to fighting for their family's well-being.

The pastor is usually someone like that himself. He has a family too. He's also taking care of the flock like an extended family. He gets pulled in a zillion directions. But I bet he'd counsel someone like that Wal-mart-lady in a heartbeat. And not charge money for it. (Who does that, except for professional "counseling centers," that also cater to "outsiders" who generally have to pay?)

Anyway, just a few thoughts...


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 3, 2005)

> I think a big problem in all churches (generally) is that church isn't central to life. I mean that because God isn't central, then the church ceases to be at the center of communal life as well.



I agree with that completely! 



> Now in the doctrine-dry church, they put tons of effort into a bunch of superfluous programs that fill the need for "community," but usually at the expense of hard-hitting teaching, because that will empty the pews and depopulate the programs.



I know that for a fact! I've been in other churches that had many services and plenty of programs but when I wanted to teach more sound doctrine I was hushed up quickly.



> And in the doctrine-rich church, you have hard-core family and church oriented people, who would like to have more "stuff" going on, but who can hardly keep their head above water financially and devote time to fighting for their family's well-being.



This may be the case, I am going to make it my mission to find out, and if there is anything I can do to help.



> The pastor is usually someone like that himself. He has a family too. He's also taking care of the flock like an extended family. He gets pulled in a zillion directions.



I'm sure as our pastor has a wife and four children!

I am hoping I can do anything to help this situation out. While house parenting again soon will take much of my time, I only have one child of my own who is out on her own now. I should be able to help out much. I pray that the church accepts/allows me to do so.


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## Michael Butterfield (Jul 3, 2005)

> 1) The only weekly service we have is on Sunday mornings. While I understand that services are seen as required by the session, I still long for more meetings! I so miss Sunday nights, and Wednesday night services. Those services strengthened me so much. Our Church does offer a Sunday evening service once a month at the Pastors house that is supposed to be an outreach to the community. No one from the community ever comes though. We also have a "mens" study once a month on Wednesday evening...so far five has been the most we've ever had including the Pastor!



I am not quite sure what kind of Presbyterian church you are attending, but it is either terribly small or they are simply uninterested in doing much more than a Lord´s Day service. I was an elder in a small church of 50 and we had a Lord´s Day evening meeting, a mid-week prayer meeting where we actually prayed after a time of teaching from the scriptures, and a men´s breakfast.



> 2) We have no "youth group" to offer either. I spoke to the pastor about a youth group and fully understand his reasoning (it's the parents job to raise the child in the Lord) but I still feel something is needed.



"œYouth groups" are problematic in my estimation. First, they do tend to foster an unhealthy attitude in the parents who tend because of their fallen condition to give over the training of their children to the church. Certainly, it is the primary responsibility of the family to train up their children, but I do find this one of the weaker arguments against the idea of a youth group. Second, and a much more serious issue, is that you often create a church within a church, which really destroys the sound biblical principle of the unity of the body and the fellowship of the saints. It also creates a situation in the church where the culturally transcendent elements of church become dichotomistic. In other words, you worship the way you want and we the youth group worship the way we want. It has an inherent divisiveness to it. In addition to this, more often than not the so-called youth pastor is one who is operating in the capacity of a church officer and is not. He is not a ruling elder much less a teaching elder and in the main unaccountable. What is needed is to teach the "œyouth" their covenantal responsibility to engage in the "œ. . . conscionable hearing of the Word . . .". Youth groups, while offering a great deal of fun, memories, and experience, are very often counter productive to the life and health of the church. There are better ways of dealing with the youth, but there needs to be a whole shift in thinking to work it out. 



> 3) Counseling etc. services; While I know our main concern is preaching the word in truth, it almost seems to me that the elect of God are converted in Evangelical Churches and then move on to Presbyterian churches when they realize they are not growing. Isn't there something WE could to avoid this? I mean I wish so badly I would have grown up Presbyterian, but then if I did I wouldn't be asking these questions would I?



What is meant by "œcounseling etc. services"? What tools does the church have with which to do its work? First, they are very few in number. The church only has three. They are the tools of discipline, sacraments, and the word. Why not do the counseling from the pulpit as some have suggested? To what degree are these "œservices" necessitated by an overly therapeutic view of the ministry not to mention the view that therapy is a health science like so called psychiatry and something we need? I would submit that this is where we have come to. People really do not want to benefit from the "œ. . . conscionable hearing of the Word . . ." (i.e., conviction, etc.), but they want counseling (i.e., therapy).


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 4, 2005)

-Our church is very small. I have no idea how many members but it's not many at all.

-To our pastors defense, he did give me the "Church within a church" reason about youth groups as well. I had forgotten that until I read your reply here.

-As for counseling, etc I guess I just need to speak to the pastor and ask him what I should do in a situation like the one I encountered. Maybe call his wife?


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