# Regeneration and Depression



## RobertPGH1981 (Sep 28, 2011)

All,

Can somebody truly be a christian if they are constantly depressed and have no joy?


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## Christopher88 (Sep 28, 2011)

Are you inferring to one is not a Christian because they are depressed more than they feel joy?


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## Pilgrim Standard (Sep 28, 2011)

By modern Humanistic Psychological Standards a secular reading of the book of Psalms would indicate David was somewhat bipolar manic.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Sep 28, 2011)

Not trying to infer anything. Just would like to know everyone's opinion on this. Can somebody be born again who claims they never felt Joy, and before and after conversion they were always depressed.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Sep 28, 2011)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Not trying to infer anything. Just would like to know everyone's opinion on this. Can somebody be born again who claims they *never* felt Joy, and before and after conversion they were always depressed.



If you've *never* felt joy, then you've never been saved, full stop. Yes, we can live in great depression, but there will be times of joy, when we realize what God has done for us in Christ. This is why the Psalmist could say, "Restore unto me the _joy_ of thy salvation" (Psalm 51:12).


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## Pilgrim Standard (Sep 28, 2011)

The children of God delight in the Law of the Lord and Meditate upon it day and night. Ps 1

And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because* I rejoice in thy salvation.*1 Sam 2:1

But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. Ps 5:11

That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion:* I will rejoice in thy salvation.* Ps 9:14

While sadness and doubts are part of the (fallen) human condition... It is the position of the Covenant Children of God to rejoice in the Lord. This is not a binary/boolean test of salvation though. But when a person who truly trusts upon Christ for Justification, leaves off the reading and meditation upon scripture, forsakes prayer & the assembly of believers esp. in corporate worship, then there is a real danger of a lack of joy in God and His word sneaking in unawares. Leaving off the means of grace could certainly lead to many bad thoughts and emotions in ones life. hence *"Deut 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation."*


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## py3ak (Sep 28, 2011)

It's difficult to answer such a brief question because there are so many variables. Has it been ten days or ten years since the person professed faith in Christ? Is there mental illness? _Is someone planning on confronting the sufferer with a call to repent on the basis of their depression?_ All of these things influence how the question is answered.

There is an additional consideration I would like to suggest: people in the grip of intense emotion tend to make very absolute statements. Emily Dickinson explains it well:


> Pain has an element of blank;
> It cannot recollect
> When it began, or if there was
> A time when it was not.
> ...



A person who is intensely depressed may well tell you that they have never experienced any joy; that doesn't mean they haven't, it just means the present crisis is occluding aspects of the past.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Sep 28, 2011)

py3ak said:


> A person who is intensely depressed may well tell you that they have never experienced any joy; that doesn't mean they haven't, it just means the present crisis is occluding aspects of the past.


 That is an interesting observation, Ruben. I have witnessed a person displaying this before. It really does seem as if the current state eclipses memories of joy.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Sep 28, 2011)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > A person who is intensely depressed may well tell you that they have never experienced any joy; that doesn't mean they haven't, it just means the present crisis is occluding aspects of the past.
> ...



Interesting, indeed. I think I've gone through similar experience in my walk with the Lord.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Sep 28, 2011)

Thank you, Everyone! You all provided some valuable insight.


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## Peairtach (Sep 28, 2011)

Deep joy in Christ can be there although it is overwhelmed by depression. 

It just isn't consciously felt when the person is depressed. Once the depression is treated, if it is clinical, or addressed in some other way, if it is not, the joy bubbles forth again.



> The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear ? (Prov 18:14)


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## Wayne (Sep 28, 2011)

The classic case would be the English poet, William Cowper. 

Insanity and Spiritual Songs in the Soul of a Saint Reflections on the Life of William Cowper 1992 Bethlehem Conference for Pastors - Desiring God

Stand Firm | A Little Something on William Cowper & John Newton [Or How To Befriend The Mentally Ill]

And the classic work on depression that comes highly recommended, _Spiritual Depression_, by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Amazon.com: Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Cure (9780802813879): David Martyn Lloyd-Jones: Books


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## Shane (Sep 29, 2011)

I have read Lloyd Jones on Spiritual Depression, it is very good. 
Thank you for that post Wayne, i actually found the part about John Newtons attitude to Cowper extremely helpfull.


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## Christopher88 (Sep 29, 2011)

I feel a Christian on this earth has moments of pure joy and a Christian on this earth knows full well the horrors of living on this earth. 
As a Christian, I find my times of pure joy come when I'm experiencing God. In praying, genuine worship, outdoors, in the stillness of morning, in song, in His word, in fellowship. 
As a Christian I suffer with depression knowing I desire God and perfection which is Christ. Living in a pagan world where I have to rage war with evil daily and live among evil, its very hard to be full of joy all the time. 

I am much like Luther, throwing ink wells at the wall because of inner "demons". Much like David with my prayer life, a roller coaster of emotions. 


So a Christian on this side (call it heaven or hell, depends on the day) I feel can express two sided emotions. 

This weekend I am going camping, I will be at one with nature in which God has revealed Himself in. Thou when away from nature, I get more out of tuned "spiritually". 

Not sure if that answered your question.


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## MW (Sep 29, 2011)

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> If you've *never* felt joy, then you've never been saved, full stop. Yes, we can live in great depression, but there will be times of joy, when we realize what God has done for us in Christ. This is why the Psalmist could say, "Restore unto me the _joy_ of thy salvation" (Psalm 51:12).


 
I think this answer gives us our first necessary distinction for discussing the subject -- the difference between joy as emotion and as contemplation. Human personality is not designed to function as a disembodied spirit but as a physical entity in a physical world. Our present physicality is tied to the earth. There are pleasant and painful feelings associated with it. That is a fact. It cannot in and of itself be judged as Christian or non Christian any more than other physical feelings of pain and pleasure. We personally feel a certain way with respect to the world and our physical condition in it. For some people those feelings can be quite painful, and the way man deals with pain is by suppression/depression. That is our natural response. The pain gets too much to deal with so we suppress it. In reality, that is all depression is, but it can also be complicated by numerous physical and psychological factors.

The joy of a believer is of a different kind. It is a deep-seated satisfaction which does not rely on physical conditions in the world or feeling related to the body or even to a specific mental state. It is joy in God, in the contemplation of reconciliation with God, in the present communion which is shared with Him, in the future prospect of being partaker of His glory. It is commanded. It is something which can be "reckoned" even when there is no outward stimulus for it, but only what is contrary to it. It can, then, exist side by side with those other emotions. One can hope against hope, live by the evidence of things not seen. If that is so, it should not be measured or judged by a comparison with these other emotions. It is a joy unspeakable and full of glory, which means it cannot be bound by the limitations of other human feelings. The presence of depression does not indicate the absence of Christian joy.


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## Romans922 (Sep 29, 2011)

For answer see Job, David, Jeremiah...and the Psalms...


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## timmopussycat (Sep 30, 2011)

Wayne said:


> The classic case would be the English poet, William Cowper.
> 
> Insanity and Spiritual Songs in the Soul of a*Saint Reflections on the Life of William Cowper 1992 Bethlehem Conference for Pastors - Desiring God
> 
> ...



Not to mention the classic work MLJ somewhere recommends: Amazon.com: A Lifting Up for the Downcast (Puritan Paperbacks) (9780851512983): William Bridge: Books

It is the best book I have found for helping me cope with attacks of depression.


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## jwithnell (Sep 30, 2011)

I think Mr. Winzer is making some crucial distinctions. In addition, I've wondered if much of the modern evangelical world has any concept of Biblical joy. Feeling all bouncy and happy because of the upbeat "praise band" is a cheap substitute that likely leaves many Christians starving.


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## Weston Stoler (Sep 30, 2011)

Do you consider spurgeon a Christian?

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

although he constantly did talk about christians having joy


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## RobertPGH1981 (Oct 2, 2011)

py3ak said:


> There is an additional consideration I would like to suggest: people in the grip of intense emotion tend to make very absolute statements. Emily Dickinson explains it well:
> Pain has an element of blank;
> It cannot recollect
> When it began, or if there was
> ...



I was asking this question because I was feeling really down, and started to question things in my walk. This statement hit the nail on head for me, and sometimes you have to be reminded of your past joy. I had a lot of things happen in the past year and the depression has been weighing on my heavily. Please pray for me.


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## Rangerus (Oct 2, 2011)

Listen to A Call To Anguish by David Wilkerson 



> All true passion for Christ comes out of a baptism of anguish.
> You search the scripture and you’ll find that when God determined to recover a ruined situation he would share his own anguish, for what God saw happening to his church and to his people. And he would find a praying man and he would take that man and literally baptize him in anguish.
> You find it in the book of Nehemiah, Jerusalem is in ruins. How is God going to deal with this? How is God going to restore the ruin? Folks, look at me, Jeremiah was not a preacher, he was a career man.




A Call to Anguish - David Wilkerson


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## py3ak (Oct 2, 2011)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > There is an additional consideration I would like to suggest: people in the grip of intense emotion tend to make very absolute statements. Emily Dickinson explains it well:
> ...



Of course, Robert. 

You know, in the Psalms you can find words that will plumb the depths of your emotion, and yet that you know are acceptable to offer to God. They give you a way, then, to take the difficulties and the feelings they produce to God (as well as reassuring you that your experience is not an aberration). And by making use of the Psalms you will also be reminded that God's steadfast love is not extended to us only when we are cheerful.


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## lukeh021471 (Oct 3, 2011)

I think it is how you handle your depression. I suffer from clinical depression and it presents many trials. A truely regenerated person will overcome those trials and give glory to God.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Oct 3, 2011)

armourbearer said:


> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> > If you've *never* felt joy, then you've never been saved, full stop. Yes, we can live in great depression, but there will be times of joy, when we realize what God has done for us in Christ. This is why the Psalmist could say, "Restore unto me the _joy_ of thy salvation" (Psalm 51:12).
> ...



Man, I shouldn't have used that word, "depression." What I meant there by "depression" was simply _insecurity of one's own salvation_. But the distinction that you made was crucial, nonetheless. I've always liked to emphasize that laughter (mental) doesn't necessarily mean the absence of sorrow (spiritual), and that depression (here mental) does not necessarily mean the absence of joy (spiritual).

"Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness." (Proverbs 14:13)


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## ThatWhichIsnt (Oct 9, 2011)

Spurgeon battle depression his entire life. So, yes.


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## jogri17 (Oct 9, 2011)

yes. With no qualifications. There is not a day that goes by that I do not think of suicide, but I handle it better and better by the grace of God.


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## bug (Oct 11, 2011)

Yes someone can be constantly depressed and be a christain. No someone cannot be a christain without joy. 

Depreesion is not merely an emotional thing, do not confuse the symptoms with the illness itself. Depression is, in part, a chemical imbalance in the mind, which is why it can be so effectively treated by drugs. I have known christains with severe despression and great joy. One of the things that gives them joy is that God has seen fit to give them the grace to manage their depression.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 11, 2011)

Spurgeon is such a good example. His depths of depression could be so severe as to keep him in bed and despairing of life itself. Yet, are there many authors who can lift you up more effectively than Spurgeon? 

While never having been clinically depressed in the institutionalized sense, my serotonin levels have led me to a relatively low maintenance dose of fluoxetine for several years. It does not "make" you happy, but does help curb the biochemical depths that lead to irrational despair.

Frankly, my limited experience is that the grace of God often shows through most dramatically at the point of our human weaknesses and frailties. Whether you carry a burden for a sibling, parent, children, grandchildren, marital difficulties, chronic illness, life threatening disease, insecure employment, financial constraints, or . . . depression, you will find that his grace is sufficient and made all the more glorious in the midst of your extremity.

BTW, as always, Ruben reflects a wisdom that far surpasses his tender years. Read and re-read anything he writes on this subject and most others. Pretty scary. If I hadn't shared a meal with him, I would not believe that he is really just a kid.


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