# The Congregation during the Act of Preaching



## Redeemed (Apr 29, 2005)

Let me qualify this by saying I am not a part of the deeper life movement and I am not a mystic.

Have any of you who herald the Word of God ever been aware of the mutual giving/sharing that takes place between the preacher and the congregation during the preaching of the Word? When they in harmony Spirit of God really give themselves to the preaching there's a sense where they are really drawing from you.

Are any of you aware of this or have you experienced this?


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## Poimen (Apr 29, 2005)

As one who is a pastor I cannot say that I have experienced this, nor would I want to. I realize that you said that you were not necessarily an advocate of this view, but I would hope that it would be obvious to all that we draw from God, not from the pastor.

Having said that, I do believe that there is a special relationship between a pastor and his congregation. I find that I enjoy preaching to my flock more than I do elsewhere. I know them, their needs, pains and troubles. Thus the delivery of the Word becomes more personal. 

Is this helpful? 

[Edited on 4-30-2005 by poimen]


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## Scott (May 3, 2005)

Derek: I am not quite sure what you are saying. I will say that a Reformed understanding does have a supernatural element to preaching. Preaching is a "means of grace" by which God confers grace on the listeners. It is more than teaching. Christ, the Word, is truly present in the preached Word. He is present during the preaching of a lawfully ordained minister during public worship in a way different than in other venues (radio, tape, or whatever).


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## The Lamb (May 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Derek: I am not quite sure what you are saying. I will say that a Reformed understanding does have a supernatural element to preaching. Preaching is a "means of grace" by which God confers grace on the listeners. It is more than teaching. Christ, the Word, is truly present in the preached Word. He is present during the preaching of a lawfully ordained minister during public worship in a way different than in other venues (radio, tape, or whatever).



He is present where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name.


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## Poimen (May 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott_
> ...



Matthew 18:19-20 "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Apostles or just anyone?


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## Scott (May 3, 2005)

"He is present where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name."

Matt 18 is in the context of church discipline issued by the institutional church. The presence with the "2 or 3" refers to an evidentiary standard based on the Mosaic Law (2 or 3 witnesses were needed to convict someone under Mosaic Law as it is under Christian discipline).


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## Redeemed (May 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> As one who is a pastor I cannot say that I have experienced this, nor would I want to. I realize that you said that you were not necessarily an advocate of this view, but I would hope that it would be obvious to all that we draw from God, not from the pastor.
> 
> Having said that, I do believe that there is a special relationship between a pastor and his congregation. I find that I enjoy preaching to my flock more than I do elsewhere. I know them, their needs, pains and troubles. Thus the delivery of the Word becomes more personal.
> ...



Do you preach looking your congregation in the eyes? If so, are you sensitive to those who are having a particularly bad day and are a bit downcast or irritable during the sermon? Are you sensitive to those who are deeply engaged in the preaching?


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## Poimen (May 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Redeemed_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by poimen_
> ...



I try to look at the congregation as much as possible. I am not always as sensitive as I possibly could be, but I also trust that the Spirit is reaching Christ's flock in their needs.


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## Redeemed (May 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Redeemed_
> ...



Are there times where you feel that you aren't really reaching them so you try to stay with a particular point of application or an illustration until that nugget of truth penetrates and a point of clarity is reached?


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## Redeemed (May 3, 2005)

Are there times where you feel like you're not battling to get through to someone in the congregation, but instead it seems like almost everyone is in one accord and really drawn into the message...almost to the point of being on the edge of their seats? If so, don't you find that this environment is not only easier to preach in, it almost spurs you on and carries you on in your preaching?


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## Redeemed (May 5, 2005)

For a fuller treatment of this topic refer to:

Preaching Christ by Charles McIlvaine
Preaching & Preachers by D.Martyn Lloyd-Jones
My Heart For Thy Cause


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## Redeemed (May 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Derek: I am not quite sure what you are saying. I will say that a Reformed understanding does have a supernatural element to preaching. Preaching is a "means of grace" by which God confers grace on the listeners. It is more than teaching. Christ, the Word, is truly present in the preached Word. He is present during the preaching of a lawfully ordained minister during public worship in a way different than in other venues (radio, tape, or whatever).



Refer to the books I mentioned

My Heart for Thy Cause
Preaching Christ
Preaching and Preachers

add to that list Lectures to my Students by Spurgeon


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## Redeemed (May 5, 2005)

I believe Dabney & Owen also make mention of this topic as well.

Dabney Discussions
Volume 16 of Owens

[Edited on 5-5-2005 by Redeemed]


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## The Lamb (May 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...




Just any believer. Since there are no more aposltes, their is no planned obsolescence to this statement of our Lord.


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## The Lamb (May 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "He is present where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name."
> 
> Matt 18 is in the context of church discipline issued by the institutional church. The presence with the "2 or 3" refers to an evidentiary standard based on the Mosaic Law (2 or 3 witnesses were needed to convict someone under Mosaic Law as it is under Christian discipline).



Scott, you inserted His presence under a "lawfully ordained " minister. Adding that fabricated 2 words, man made belief is false. Our Lord is present everywhere. That was the point I was making. He does not need a "lawfully ordained" minister around to be present. His presence is no different anytime, any place any where.


In fact, this actually sounds very romish. To think that His presence is determined by man or whatever lawfully ordained means, smacks of popery. IF this is not what you meant, then please explain.



[Edited on 5-5-2005 by The Lamb]


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## Redeemed (May 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Derek: I am not quite sure what you are saying. I will say that a Reformed understanding does have a supernatural element to preaching. Preaching is a "means of grace" by which God confers grace on the listeners. It is more than teaching. Christ, the Word, is truly present in the preached Word. He is present during the preaching of a lawfully ordained minister during public worship in a way different than in other venues (radio, tape, or whatever).



I don't disagree, but this is not what I'm referring to.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
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> 
> > _Originally posted by Redeemed_
> ...



So.... does this mean that you simply get up front, read from your notes/outline and kinda (in essense) 'talk at' the congregation ?


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## Redeemed (Jun 27, 2005)

To get a clearer picture of what I'm referring to read the following on preaching:

Broadus page 2
Lloyd-Jones page 84
McIlvaine 97, 103
Gardinder Spring's chapter entitled the Living Teacher


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## Redeemed (Sep 26, 2005)

"When a man who is apt in teaching, whose soul is on fire with the truth which he trusts has saved him and hopes will save others, speaks to his fellow-men, face to face, eye to eye, and electric sympathies flash to and fro between him and his hearers, till they lift each other up, higher and higher, into the most intense thought, and the most impassioned emotion - higher yet higher, till they are borne as on chariots of fire above the world, there is a power to move men. to influence character, life, destiny, such as no printed page can ever possess."

John Broadus


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