# Why the Reformed Unfriendly Phenomena?



## cupotea (Aug 4, 2004)

I don't think there is a theological answer to this question, so I thought I'd post it here.

Has anyone else noticed that members of Reformed churches tend to lack friendliness and hospitality when it comes to visitors in the pews on Sunday morning? Out here (Washington/Oregon) all the Reformed churches I'v attended/visited, I have found the congregants to be very friendly & nice amongst themselves, but aren't very 'visitor-friendly' initially. Maybe once you've been there a few months (and got into the church 'programs'), people will generally start to warm up to you, but initially: it's like you're surrounded by the original frozen chosen!!! Then I go visit a conservative Disp'y church, and they're sooooo friendly. What's up with this? Am I the only one to have noticed this phenomena? I've never visited Reformed churches in other parts of the country, so I can't speak for you in the Mid-West, the East, or the South. What's the general concensus?

BTW - I'm just as guilty as the other frozen chosen out in this part of the country!! When I was a 10-year member of a local PCA church, I wasn't the first to go meet new people!! But I want to know what makes us Reformed people be like that?


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## fredtgreco (Aug 4, 2004)

Kristine,

This is not just the Reformed, although we are clear perpetrators here. One of the greatest failings of American Christianity is in the area of hospitality and fellowship. I believe it is an outgrowth of our lack of covenantal thinking (even in Reformed circles)


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## turmeric (Aug 4, 2004)

Come on down to Portland to the Intown Presbyterian Church. We're probably too friendly by some standards. Of course, most of us used to be Dispensationalists, hmmm!


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## Craig (Aug 4, 2004)

One of the friendliest churches I attended was a Reformed Baptist church in Anderson,IN...I loved that church. My wife (then fiancee) attended there while in our final year of college. 

In Michigan, all but one of the Reformed churches we tried were not what I'd call unfriendly...just kind of awkward. Like the church I'm a member of now...it's still kinda strange trying to interact with some of the people. Is it a Dutch thing? My wife thinks the people are just more "direct" which can come off unfriendly. Anyways, I only had one "bad" experience at a Reformed church...we showed up, we were handed a bulletin with no sort of greeting...we made a point to walk out slowly after worship...I tried to catch people's eyes, but we eventually just left. No one even tried to talk to us! 

That was an "independant" church that broke off the CRC.

My experiences with Reformed Baptist, OPC, PCA has been good so far, but the experience is far different than what I had with other churches.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Aug 4, 2004)

The Catholics also have that problem... I went to a Catholic church three times and on the third time the first person spoke to me.


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## FrozenChosen (Aug 4, 2004)

We are certainly guilty. For a group of people that believe in a sovereign Lord, we sure are afraid of meeting other people!

I am very happy that my pastor (in Pensacola) makes it a point to go and greet new faces every Sunday. It's good stuff.


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## Cacklewack (Aug 5, 2004)

[quote:9b25821594="turmeric"]Come on down to Portland to the Intown Presbyterian Church. We're probably too friendly by some standards. Of course, most of us used to be Dispensationalists, hmmm![/quote:9b25821594]

Amen Meg. Especially a fella named Josh. 

Matt


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## kceaster (Aug 5, 2004)

*Craig....*

Did you go to AU? I went there for a year. What did you think?

Blessings,

KC


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## blhowes (Aug 5, 2004)

In these churches that don't seem so welcoming, do you think their size is a factor in the unfriendliness? In large churches, sometimes its a little more difficult to spot the visitors.

I have to laugh when I think of an experience I had. I visited a friend in Oklahoma a long time ago and we went to their rather large independent baptist church on Sunday. I sat in the aisle seat, and one of the ushers walked up, shook my hand, and made me feel right at home. I thought, "How nice". He moved on to the man that was sitting in the row behind me. The usher shook his hand, asked how he was doing, and if he was new to the area. The man replied, "No, I've been a member here for 20 years!" The usher awkwardly finished the conversation and went to the next row. I couldn't help but  on the outside, and even  on the inside, though I felt bad for the guy behind me.


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## cupotea (Aug 5, 2004)

I agree size and timing have a something to do with it. But still. I attended a fairly-small downtown Portland PCA church (*cough*ahem*) for two months and only met about 4 people while I was there. I've been attending a fairly-small Beaverton PCA church for about 3 months, and have only met a few people as well. Then I visited a Dispie church last week, and met just about everyone in the small congregation the same day!

I know of a Reformed church in Salem where families are on a rotation-schedule of being extra-hospitable. One family per week is designated to greet visitors at church Sunday morning and invite them to their home for a meal. I kind of like that idea, especially if a church has a reputation for being less-than eager to meet/greet new folks. 

Wouldn't it be great to visit a church, and find yourself with more lunch-invitations than you know what to do with?


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## Cacklewack (Aug 6, 2004)

[quote:37ffc27f1d="ReformedLadyRed"]I agree size and timing have a something to do with it. But still. I attended a fairly-small downtown Portland PCA church (*cough*ahem*) for two months and only met about 4 people while I was there. I've been attending a fairly-small Beaverton PCA church for about 3 months, and have only met a few people as well. Then I visited a Dispie church last week, and met just about everyone in the small congregation the same day!

I know of a Reformed church in Salem where families are on a rotation-schedule of being extra-hospitable. One family per week is designated to greet visitors at church Sunday morning and invite them to their home for a meal. I kind of like that idea, especially if a church has a reputation for being less-than eager to meet/greet new folks. 

Wouldn't it be great to visit a church, and find yourself with more lunch-invitations than you know what to do with?[/quote:37ffc27f1d]

Ahem, cough.  

I am quite an introvert, in many respects. You know me. I generally never talk to anyone new unless they talk to me first. Walking into new churches is a daunting task for me, as I'm not good at making new friends unless I already know someone in that particular "niche." 

I've come to realize that sometimes it is necessary to step outside of your typical boundaries every once and awhile and do something "spontaneous," like, speak to someone I've never met before. I usually hide in the corner when I come across large unknown crowds, hoping to be spoken to, when I look very withdrawn and even dismissive. Then I later kick myself for being so very quiet. 

Some people are hard to greet. I think I am. I don't think you are. 

When I first came to my current church, I knew nobody, yet I was greeted quite warmly by more than a few people. Every week they would greet me, and remember my name. This I am absolutely terrible at. 


Matt


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## voided user1 (Aug 6, 2004)

I have definitely noticed what you're talking about. My church is not like that, and that's why I'm comfortable here. It seems to me it comes from pride and insecurity. If what we believe is what we really believe, it has meaning for the people around us. We shouldn't be on a high horse or turtle shell. There isn't any reason why a doctrinal faith can't also be a relational faith.


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## Ianterrell (Aug 6, 2004)

I've never been to a church that was truly Reformed and mean spirited. I guess I've been lucky...err blessed.


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## turmeric (Aug 6, 2004)

This kind of 'tude kept me out of Reformed churches for a few years. Thank God I found a friendly bunch of Reformed Baptists and then the PCA church I joined! I don't see how anyone could go there for 2 months and not know more than 4 people! I happen to know that ReformedLadyRed knows 5 or 6 of us. Oops, priviledged information-sorry!


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## cupotea (Aug 6, 2004)

Not to be argumentative, but I didn't meet any of you (exept Josh) until after we left and started at Zion. Then I came to home group, and the rest, as they say, is history.


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## Cacklewack (Aug 7, 2004)

[quote:6f68e36193="ReformedLadyRed"]Not to be argumentative, but I didn't meet any of you (exept Josh) until after we left and started at Zion. Then I came to home group, and the rest, as they say, is history. [/quote:6f68e36193]

You'll get over it.  


Matt


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## cupotea (Aug 7, 2004)

What's to get over?  

Life is good because God is good!


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## LawrenceU (Aug 7, 2004)

RLR,
As a pastor this is something that I've looked at for years. For a number of years I served as the director of a ministry that allowed me to be involved with a vast array of congregations: Reformed, Arminian, rural, suburban, urban you name it I was there. From that experience I would have to conclude that on the whole the Reformed churches sorely lacked in the area of hospitality when compared to others. Here are a few observations/conclusions that I've made:

Some paedo churches are so 'covenant exclusive' that they have lost the vision of evangelism haveing a role to play in the daily life of the body.

Some churches, both paedo and credo, are so concerned about having every tiny 't' crossed and 'i' dotted that they have become docrinal introverts and thus become practical introverts.

Some view themselves as having 'arrived' theologically and thus, whether intentional or not, hold themselves apart from those who have not 'arrived'.

Some have forgotten that love is the greater gift, the girdle that holds all Chrsitian garments in position. This point is the bottom line in my opinion.


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## Ianterrell (Aug 7, 2004)

Not to be smart-alecky but in further thought concerning the thread topic I was curious: isn't it perhaps more universally strange and weird that there are unfriendly congregations in ANY confessing Christian fellowship? I think the answer must be resoundingly no! Not at all suprising, since we are all sinful. There is no amount of intellegence or doctrinal precision that will keep churches filled with imperfect men free from moral error, granted true knowledge is accompanied by piety. But in beings such as ourselves, piety is often the rarety rather than the norm. We are after all sinners saved by grace.


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## blhowes (Aug 7, 2004)

Ian,
Good thoughts. I was thinking along the same lines earlier this morning. Personally, I tend to not expect too much from churches I visit. If I get a big welcome, great. If not, that's fine too. 

Getting a good welcome is great and it makes me feel good (only if I sense its genuine), but that is a little low on my priority list. Its on the list, 'cause it may be an indicator of what fruits the ministry produces if any, but nevertheless its low on my list. As with most I'm sure on this board, doctrinal soundness and good preaching is right up there at the top of the list. If that's there and a decision is made to join the church, in time relationships will be developed as I get involved in ministries, participate in Sunday School classes, go out on visitation, etc. 

What concerns me is that many people (I don't mean on this board) place too high of an importance on how friendly a church is and how easy it is or isn't to 'feel' a part of the church. So many good reformed, and not-so-reformed churches, are bypassed by people who aren't welcomed the way they think they should be. These churches may be exactly where God wants them, but instead they go to the seeker sensitive church that has the coffee and crumpits and makes you feel immediately like you've been there all along. Even the cults have got this down to a science - anybody ever seen the movie about Jim Jones? Walking into their little community sure would give one a warm and cozy feeling.

I think we need to be a little patient with the people in the churches we visit, just as we hope they'll be patient with us. Who knows what their backgrounds are and why they don't reach out. It could be indifference or they could be too introverted and afraid to approach me. I've noticed in the churches I've visited that a good way to start the ball rolling relationship-wise is to participate in the Sunday School class. I found that when I ask a good question or answer one of the teacher's questions, others take notice and approach me later. These are the main (not the only) people I'm interested in developing relationships with up front cause they're the ones I initially have the most in common with - an interest in studying and talking about the scriptures.


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## king of fools (Aug 10, 2004)

I have seen this be a problem for churches that are between 50-300 people. Lots of reformed churches are this size. 

Often, also it's a question of the people at a church and what "people groups" you fit into at that church. Sounds sad to say that, but it's quite often the case. When my wife and I settled at our RB church, we were the only ones in our age group plus or minus 10 years. But we stayed there and other young 20ish couples visited and stayed as well. Now, we're blessed with some good friends from there.

I try to make an effort to talk to new people, but it doesn't always work out that way.


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## turmeric (Aug 10, 2004)

Last night I went to my friend's homegroup from a church she's having trouble with. They were awfully nice young people but they kept talking to each other. This is the third group I've interacted with which was started by people at a particular local bible college which shall remain nameless. They're all alike, talking to each other so much they can't see anyone else, then a sudden professionally friendly smile as outreach. They call this "loving on people". I hope they don't love on me anytime soon again. I honestly don't think they know they're doing this.


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## JonathonHunt (Aug 11, 2004)

I don't know if this has been covered, but here are my 2 cents:

I think that it comes down to leadership. If hospitality is preached from the pulpit, if the minister/elders are 'given to hospitality' that certainly helps. If the elders lead in a practical fashion also - we have seen here the mention of hospitality rotas etc. In my last church (possibly the largest reformed baptist church in England) there was an entire set-up for hospitality.

There were stewards on every door to greet each worshipper. Members were set aside as 'vestibule stewards' to talk to visitors and newcomers, and to engage them. Some souls were not afraid to run after visitors who tried to leave in a hurry! There were even a couple who left the worship in the last hymn to catch anyone who tried to sneak out fast after the benediction. Visitors who could be persuaded to, left their details on a card, and these were handed in to a deacon who co-ordinated them. Those who had spoken to people recorded the fact and a couple of deacons would gather details from the stewards to see who had been attending. Those identified as new might be given a letter, a phone call or a visit in the week by other members set aside for this task.

Lunch was always available to a visitor as many church members stayed for lunch at the Church in the basement halls (every week, so that they could be available to collect children for the evangelistic sunday school), and most were flexible as to being able to feed a couple of extra mouths.

These are just a few ways in which a large church tried to address its size preventing new people being properly welcomed and included...

I really think it comes down to leadership, and planning... and a Christ-like attitude, of course!


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## cupotea (Aug 11, 2004)

Jonathan, that's incredible! What an awesome system. I heartily agree that leadership from the pulpit is a key to overcoming this churchly-problem.


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## Humbled_Calvinist (Aug 20, 2004)

Hi, :bs2: 

I don't know about others, but I am extremly shy and have a hard time talking to others which makes it the more difficult for me when we have visitors at our Church. I want to be one of the first ones to say hello whenever anyone new comes to visit, but this stupid fear I have keeps me glued to my seat. :no: 
I do speak to people when Church is over and my wife and son are with me, but most of the time, my wife is so busy running after her friends and chatting with them that by the time we get around to speaking to the visitors, they have already gone. I have often felt that I did not belong in Church as if somehow I was not really wanted there. Don't really know too many people there and than we only see each other one hour a week. Kind of hard to make any friends that way.


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## govols (Aug 20, 2004)

Jonathan,

So that is where we "American" Baptists get our pot luck lunches from. I guess a baptist is a baptist is a baptist no matter what country you worship in. :bs2: 

Most reformed churches aren't "seeker friendly" as some of the Arminian churches are. Sometimes we have comfort zones that we have to come out of. For me, I have to make it a cause to greet others.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Aug 21, 2004)

Persoanlly, I think that the lack of love found in situations like "cold churches" demonstrates the irrespectability of the people of God AS the people of God.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, [b:d4c7465d5e]that you love one another[/b:d4c7465d5e]: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

John 13:35 By this [b:d4c7465d5e]all people will know [/b:d4c7465d5e]that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

Romans 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another,

Galatians 5:13 but through love serve one another.

Ephesians 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,

1 Thessalonians 3:12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you,

1 Thessalonians 4:9 for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another,

1 Peter 1:22 love one another earnestly from a pure heart,

1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly,

1 Peter 5:14 Greet one another with the kiss of love.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

2 John 1:5 but the one we have had from the beginning- that we love one another.

And.......so.......should we bear one another a cold shoulder?????
I think not. That demosntrates DEAD ORTHODOXY. (Ouch!)


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