# Reformed Seminaries & Female Teachers



## jandrusk

Decided to look and see if there were any female teaching faculty at WTS and found the profile at the link below. 

Westminster Theological Seminary - Elizabeth Groves

So my question is, does having female professors/teachers/instructors violate I Timothy 2:11-14?

I Timothy 11-14 (KJV): "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."


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## SolaScriptura

What subject does she teach?


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## jandrusk

SolaScriptura said:


> What subject does she teach?



Lecturer in Old Testament according to her WTS profile.


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## Bill The Baptist

What does it mean by "lecturer"? Clearly she is not a professor based on the fact that she only has an MAR degree. Perhaps she merely fills in when the professor is absent. When I was in seminary at Southeastern, my Baptist History professor was unable to be in class one day and he had a female doctoral student come in and give the lecture. We didn't think too much of it at the time.


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## lynnie

I have been told that Libby Groves is a better Hebrew teacher than her late husband at WTS was.

Is it OK for a woman to teach math, or how to make a chocolate cake? Can I explain to a guy the american sign language signs for some words without violating scripture? It is usurping the authority of male elders in the church to establish doctrine, by teaching guys a foreign language?

I really don't know what all she teaches at WTS, but her Hebrew classes are well regarded.

WTS is not quite as "rigid" as some in the Reformed Community would prefer. It is sometimes more John Frame-ish than say WS Calif. If you are looking into going to Seminary and are more to the far conservative side, you might not want to go to WTS. Just sayin.......


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## JohnGill

lynnie said:


> I have been told that Libby Groves is a better Hebrew teacher than her late husband at WTS was.
> 
> Is it OK for a woman to teach math, or how to make a chocolate cake? Can I explain to a guy the american sign language signs for some words without violating scripture? It is usurping the authority of male elders in the church to establish doctrine, by teaching guys a foreign language?
> 
> I really don't know what all she teaches at WTS, but her Hebrew classes are well regarded.
> 
> WTS is not quite as "rigid" as some in the Reformed Community would prefer. It is sometimes more John Frame-ish than say WS Calif. If you are looking into going to Seminary and are more to the far conservative side, you might not want to go to WTS. Just sayin.......



In context the verses deal with women teaching men in church. Otherwise it would've been sin for Eunice & Lois to teach Timothy or for Priscilla & Aquilla to teach Apollos. If Mrs. Groves is usurping the authority of men by teaching men Hebrew, then she is in the wrong. But if in teaching Hebrew she does not usurp the authority of men, then she is guiltless. The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.


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## chuckd

lynnie said:


> Is it OK for a woman to teach math.



That's how I learned second order differential equations. It was somewhere in 2 Kings. We had to go to the Apocrypha to learn about wavelets, though.


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## smhbbag

> The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.



How can Hebrew, or anything else at seminary, be taught without teaching theology?


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## Quatchu

smhbbag said:


> The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can Hebrew, or anything else at seminary, be taught without teaching theology?
Click to expand...


I took 2 semesters worth of Hebrew and i can easily say it was taught without teaching any theology what so ever.


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## JohnGill

smhbbag said:


> The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can Hebrew, or anything else at seminary, be taught without teaching theology?
Click to expand...


The same way an English class can cover the Authorized Version of the Bible without covering theology, by treating it as literature. This occurs in classics' classes dealing with Roman & Greek gods. Besides, if she is just teaching it as a language, then theology by default is not involved. How I conjugate a Greek or Hebrew verb is independent of the theology of Paul or Micah. Any theological questions she could simply direct to a systematic theology professor.


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## Romans922

Quatchu said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can Hebrew, or anything else at seminary, be taught without teaching theology?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I took 2 semesters worth of Hebrew and i can easily say it was taught without teaching any theology what so ever.
Click to expand...


That's sad to hear.


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## Elimelek

What a weird thread .


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## Pilgrim

Several years ago there was a controversy at Southwestern Baptist Seminary over a female professor of Hebrew (I think.) She was eventually forced out.


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## Tyrese

jandrusk said:


> Decided to look and see if there were any female teaching faculty at WTS and found the profile at the link below.
> 
> Westminster Theological Seminary - Elizabeth Groves
> 
> So my question is, does having female professors/teachers/instructors violate I Timothy 2:11-14?
> 
> I Timothy 11-14 (KJV): "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."



I'm no expert here but I guess I don't see any problems with a women teaching at a seminary being that the scriptures no nothing of seminaries and theological institutions. Now I'm not saying its wrong to go to seminary as I do see many benifits. I just tend to believe that the majority of learning should be done in the church under the pastors. But that's a different topic. I also thought that passage from 1 Tim was only tied to a women's conduct in the church?


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## AThornquist

I could not reject a female seminary professor on the basis of 1 Tim. 2:11-14 unless it was in a subject specifically relating to pastoral ministry. While every subject does _apply_ to pastoral ministry, not every subject is specifically about it; and I think I stand on firm ground to say that "Old Testament" applies to all Christians, not specifically to pastors. The context of that passage is the local church, not a class in theology. And if I start to apply that passage without careful notice of its context, all sorts of interesting applications arise. For example, the "authority" spoken of in 1 Tim. will be misunderstood and potentially abused, such as by saying that a woman can't have authority over a man in _any_ context. The authority of a leader in the church is _not_ equivalent to the authority of a teacher in a classroom. Besides, I know of no Biblical text that prohibits a woman from teaching theology to a man outside of the gathered local church, whereas I _do_ see Priscilla teaching a man outside of the church. So may a man learn about the Old Testament or Hebrew in a classroom setting? Sure, just as he could read one of her published books.


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## jandrusk

AThornquist said:


> I could not reject a female seminary professor on the basis of 1 Tim. 2:11-14 unless it was in a subject specifically relating to pastoral ministry. While every subject does _apply_ to pastoral ministry, not every subject is specifically about it; and I think I stand on firm ground to say that "Old Testament" applies to all Christians, not specifically to pastors. The context of that passage is the local church, not a class in theology. And if I start to apply that passage without careful notice of its context, all sorts of interesting applications arise. For example, the "authority" spoken of in 1 Tim. will be misunderstood and potentially abused, such as by saying that a woman can't have authority over a man in _any_ context. The authority of a leader in the church is _not_ equivalent to the authority of a teacher in a classroom. Besides, I know of no Biblical text that prohibits a woman from teaching theology to a man outside of the gathered local church, whereas I _do_ see Priscilla teaching a man outside of the church. So may a man learn about the Old Testament or Hebrew in a classroom setting? Sure, just as he could read one of her published books.



The problem with that interpretation is that the text does not qualify itself as only applying to the local church. I believe Paul is setting a holistic standard for the church as a whole. I might to be as bold to say it applies to all areas of theology with reference to the creative order. Even if we just keep the discussion in the scope of theology I think it comes down to if a seminary represents the "church" in regards to it's pedagogical function and the authoratative order should be followed.


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## Miss Marple

I can imagine learning Hebrew, say, from a devout Jew. Obviously I wouldn't be learning theology from her, but I could learn some great Hebrew, no doubt.

It's a language, not a theology.



Romans922 said:


> Quatchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The determining factor would be whether or not she's teaching theology as well as Hebrew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can Hebrew, or anything else at seminary, be taught without teaching theology?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I took 2 semesters worth of Hebrew and i can easily say it was taught without teaching any theology what so ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's sad to hear.
Click to expand...


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## AThornquist

jandrusk said:


> The problem with that interpretation is that the text does not qualify itself as only applying to the local church. I believe Paul is setting a holistic standard for the church as a whole. I might to be as bold to say it applies to all areas of theology with reference to the creative order. Even if we just keep the discussion in the scope of theology I think it comes down to if a seminary represents the "church" in regards to it's pedagogical function and the authoratative order should be followed.



Contrarily, I think the text specifically _does_ qualify itself as only applying to the local church, which is evidenced by the fact that after vv. 11-14 Paul speaks about the qualifications of elders and deacons, and then he says, "I have written so that you will know how people ought to act in God's household" (1 Tim. 3:15). If Paul is indeed "setting a holistic standard for the church as a whole", would that mean that it is sinful for a female to be a supervisor over a man in the workplace? Would that mean a woman could not teach anything, even crochetting, if a man were involved? 

But as you say, if we keep the discussion within the scope of theology, I still find it difficult to justify univerally restricting "authority to teach" to men on the basis of 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when a) we have a clear New Testament example of a woman teaching a man theological things and b) the logical conclusion of needing to apply church principles to a seminary because it "represents the 'church'" is that every church ministry and faithful parachurch organization ought to be governed by the RPW.


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## smhbbag

> I could not reject a female seminary professor on the basis of 1 Tim. 2:11-14 unless it was in a subject specifically relating to pastoral ministry. While every subject does apply to pastoral ministry, not every subject is specifically about it; and I think I stand on firm ground to say that "Old Testament" applies to all Christians, not specifically to pastors. The context of that passage is the local church, not a class in theology. And if I start to apply that passage without careful notice of its context, all sorts of interesting applications arise. For example, the "authority" spoken of in 1 Tim. will be misunderstood and potentially abused, such as by saying that a woman can't have authority over a man in any context. The authority of a leader in the church is not equivalent to the authority of a teacher in a classroom. Besides, I know of no Biblical text that prohibits a woman from teaching theology to a man outside of the gathered local church, whereas I do see Priscilla teaching a man outside of the church. So may a man learn about the Old Testament or Hebrew in a classroom setting? Sure, just as he could read one of her published books.



When teaching Hebrew to seminary students, how can you do that without teaching your students what the Word of God means? Once you're past the alphabet, that teaching will necessarily include examples from the scriptures about what is right or wrong in how we deal with the words.

So, we have a woman teaching a group of men what the Word of God means, and she is doing so with church/denominational authority. This is a straightforward application of I Tim 2.


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## lynnie

_So, we have a woman teaching a group of men what the Word of God means, and she is doing so with church/denominational authority. This is a straightforward application of I Tim 2. _

Ya know.....there are people at that seminary who believe in women wearing headcoverings today. I don't think its time yet, to start worrying that WTS is heading down the path to liberalism.......


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## smhbbag

> Ya know.....there are people at that seminary who believe in women wearing headcoverings today. I don't think its time yet, to start worrying that WTS is heading down the path to liberalism.......



I've made no claims about their trajectory. The question here is whether they are right or wrong on this issue.


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## Jack K

Sometimes there are institutions and people you have to trust and give the benefit of the doubt. You know that these institutions and these people surround themselves with mature and wise believers who challenge them appropriately, ask the hard questions, and see to it that when they do things that involve complicated "gray" areas they're doing those things with utmost care and in a godly manner.

Both WTS and Mrs. Groves fall into that category.

To cast suspiscion on them from a distance is hazardous. We must assume that the hard questions have been asked and answered to the satisfaction of many wiser and better informed folks than any of us. And from what little I know of her, I would also guess that of all the people involved, Mrs. Groves is being the most careful of all to go about her work in a manner that serves the church without overstepping appropriate bounds.


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## smhbbag

When there are hard questions and gray areas, especially on an issue in which the church is so vulnerable to the influence of the world, everyone in the church is owed a direct answer. Public statements about their answers are essential. Has such been done?

A case has to be made that a female Greek, Hebrew, NT or OT professor (or any other seminary subject) is not instructing men about the Word of God, with the authority of the church or denomination behind her. I haven't seen that case.


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## JohnGill

smhbbag said:


> When there are hard questions and gray areas, especially on an issue in which the church is so vulnerable to the influence of the world, everyone in the church is owed a direct answer. Public statements about their answers are essential. Has such been done?
> 
> A case has to be made that a female Greek, Hebrew, NT or OT professor (or any other seminary subject) is not instructing men about the Word of God, with the authority of the church or denomination behind her. I haven't seen that case.


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## Jack K

smhbbag said:


> When there are hard questions and gray areas, especially on an issue in which the church is so vulnerable to the influence of the world, everyone in the church is owed a direct answer.



Not sure answers are "owed" to absolutely everyone. But have you asked nicely and been refused one?


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## AThornquist

It's doubtful that if they felt her teaching were appropriate they also would feel the need to justify themselves to any and all who disagree.


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## Scott1

In a situation like this, 
it really is best biblically to go to the source, and hear their policy, guideline, explanation.
We have no general basis to imply aspersions on the reputation or motives of either the esteemed institution or this widow without more investigation first.
Both are entitled to protection of their reputations and charitable esteem unless and until we know a lot more and before we can even evaluate this.


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## py3ak

smhbbag said:


> with the authority of the church or denomination behind her



WTS is not a denominational institution, nor is it a church. It is a private institution of higher learning. It is quite outside of their ability to confer any ecclesiastical authority on anyone, let alone someone incapable of it.


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## ChristianTrader

py3ak said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> with the authority of the church or denomination behind her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTS is not a denominational institution, nor is it a church. It is a private institution of higher learning. It is quite outside of their ability to confer any ecclesiastical authority on anyone, let alone someone incapable of it.
Click to expand...


Point noted, but such does not change much of the pointedness of the question. Do we really think the question of the appropriateness of a female seminary professor would only is appropriate if the Seminary in question was Covenant?

Next, WTS was started by a founder of the OPC, so the linkage is much closer than just a random seminary teaching Reformed Doctrine.

CT


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## ChristianTrader

AThornquist said:


> It's doubtful that if they felt her teaching were appropriate they also would feel the need to justify themselves to any and all who disagree.



Do you think the question of this thread is proper one and deserving of a public response?

CT


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## Tyrese

ChristianTrader said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's doubtful that if they felt her teaching were appropriate they also would feel the need to justify themselves to any and all who disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think the question of this thread is proper one and deserving of a public response?
> 
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


Ima be honest. I don't think so because the Scriptures don't give us any rules about how a seminary should operate.


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## smhbbag

> WTS is not a denominational institution, nor is it a church. It is a private institution of higher learning. It is quite outside of their ability to confer any ecclesiastical authority on anyone, let alone someone incapable of it.



It is no mere institution of higher learning -seminaries are gatekeepers for pastoral ministry. In general, the M.Div isn't optional, and churches don't grant them. A seminary's stamp of academic approval is part of the qualification process for a call. 

That makes the seminary an authority, both real and by perception, in the life of the students and churches who rely on it. With female professors, that means a man is then placed under the Biblical instruction of a woman in order to proceed to the ministry.


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## Tyrese

smhbbag said:


> WTS is not a denominational institution, nor is it a church. It is a private institution of higher learning. It is quite outside of their ability to confer any ecclesiastical authority on anyone, let alone someone incapable of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is no mere institution of higher learning -seminaries are gatekeepers for pastoral ministry. In general, the M.Div isn't optional, and churches don't grant them. A seminary's stamp of academic approval is part of the qualification process for a call.
> 
> That makes the seminary an authority, both real and by perception, in the life of the students and churches who rely on it. With female professors, that means a man is then placed under the Biblical instruction of a woman in order to proceed to the ministry.
Click to expand...


Now my question for you is we're is the Biblical support for giving a seminary authority, and for churches to rely upon it? I ask because you appear to be saying that seminaries have equal authority to the church in its endorsement of those individuals who are and are not called by God to the ministry.


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## py3ak

smhbbag said:


> It is no mere institution of higher learning -seminaries are gatekeepers for pastoral ministry. In general, the M.Div isn't optional, and churches don't grant them. A seminary's stamp of academic approval is part of the qualification process for a call.
> 
> That makes the seminary an authority, both real and by perception, in the life of the students and churches who rely on it. With female professors, that means a man is then placed under the Biblical instruction of a woman in order to proceed to the ministry.



If there has been an unfortunate blurring of lines between an independent institution and the visible church, the solution is not for the institution to start acting more like the church, but for the distinction to be reasserted, or the institution to become an agency under the control of the church.

If the latter choice were to be taken, some renewed attention to what some have considered the distinct ecclesiastical office of doctor might be in order.


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## Caroline

It seems to me that there is a large gray area on this one. In some measure, it is inevitable that men will learn from women if they are in close proximity at all. Even that pastors will learn from women. If I happen to blurt out something insightful while making a prayer request, it is possible that my pastor may learn something. If I happen to ask a question that he has not considered before so that it changes his perspective a bit, then he learns something. If I am not insightful and my questions are painfully ignorant, then he may learn patience and forbearance, and he has still learned something from a woman. I would suggest that most pastors on this board have learned something from their wife or from reading the posts of women on this board.

The question is whether the learning process places someone under the authority of a woman, and I think something could be said on both sides of that. But in general, I'd have to agree with WTS. The men who are in training are not pastors at the time. They may or may not ever become pastors. By the time they become pastors, what limited authority a Hebrew instructor may have will be long past. Most men have female teachers at some point in their lives. I don't think they still consider themselves under the authority of old Mrs. Harbough twenty years later. So I don't see anything wrong with it. It is an exchange of information in a classroom, not a discipleship situation.


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## ChristianTrader

Tyrese said:


> smhbbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTS is not a denominational institution, nor is it a church. It is a private institution of higher learning. It is quite outside of their ability to confer any ecclesiastical authority on anyone, let alone someone incapable of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is no mere institution of higher learning -seminaries are gatekeepers for pastoral ministry. In general, the M.Div isn't optional, and churches don't grant them. A seminary's stamp of academic approval is part of the qualification process for a call.
> 
> That makes the seminary an authority, both real and by perception, in the life of the students and churches who rely on it. With female professors, that means a man is then placed under the Biblical instruction of a woman in order to proceed to the ministry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now my question for you is we're is the Biblical support for giving a seminary authority, and for churches to rely upon it? I ask because you appear to be saying that seminaries have equal authority to the church in its endorsement of those individuals who are and are not called by God to the ministry.
Click to expand...


First, who said anything about equal authority? The stronger claim is not necessary for the question to be appropriate. For example, no one is claiming that a degree from a certain seminary guarantees a person an open spot in ministry at any particular church.

Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?

Lastly, it is seems that we need to address the question in the context of what Seminary is today. Given an answer to that question, it would then be appropriate to think about what needs to change and why.

CT


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## Caroline

<<
Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?>>

As someone who used to teach in a college, I'd say no. The authority is limited to keeping a classroom moving along and ensuring that students exhibit appropriate level of learning in order to pass the class. I never felt like I had control over a student's family life, religious inclination, or personal decisions. The authority that my pastor and elders have in my life is entirely different from that which a teacher has over adult students. The authority of a teacher is extremely limited and ends at the conclusion of the semester. Like I said, it is not discipleship. A pastor declares the Word of God. A teacher declares the square root of 16. Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns. There is a difference.


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## smhbbag

> Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns.



And then teaches them why that means the Word of God reads as X and not Y.


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## Goodcheer68

smhbbag said:


> And then teaches them why that means the Word of God reads as X and not Y.



You have yet to show that a woman is not allowed to teach a man in any context. Especially in light of the fact that Chris pointed out that
" it would've been sin for Eunice & Lois to teach Timothy or for Priscilla & Aquilla to teach Apollos" if a woman was not aloud to teach men at any time.


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## smhbbag

> You have yet to show that a woman is not allowed to teach a man in any context. Especially in light of the fact that Chris pointed out that
> " it would've been sin for Eunice & Lois to teach Timothy or for Priscilla & Aquilla to teach Apollos" if a woman was not aloud to teach men at any time.



In scripture, women are shown rightly teaching other women about home life (Titus 2), and teaching men or women in a small private or home setting about the Bible. I hope for my wife and I to teach and to be taught in such ways.

To go beyond that, the burden of proof isn't on me. It's on those who want women to do things the Bible doesn't commend.

I'm perfectly fine with Priscilla, Eunice and Lois. But, to name two examples: Beth Moore isn't being Priscilla when she preaches to men at Passion, and a seminary professor isn't being Eunice or Lois when she lectures current and future ministers about the Bible.


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## Goodcheer68

So If the professor was to teach the future ministers at home then that would be fine? I think the principle is what others have mentioned, its not necessarily no teaching, as much as it is within a church setting.


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## ChristianTrader

Caroline said:


> <<
> Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?>>
> 
> As someone who used to teach in a college, I'd say no. The authority is limited to keeping a classroom moving along and ensuring that students exhibit appropriate level of learning in order to pass the class. I never felt like I had control over a student's family life, religious inclination, or personal decisions. The authority that my pastor and elders have in my life is entirely different from that which a teacher has over adult students. The authority of a teacher is extremely limited and ends at the conclusion of the semester. Like I said, it is not discipleship. A pastor declares the Word of God. A teacher declares the square root of 16. Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns. There is a difference.



That a pastor has a greater authority level in various ways than a math professor etc does nothing to even touch the point that it is the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be in authority over those placed under them.

CT


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## Goodcheer68

ChristianTrader said:


> That a pastor has a greater authority level in various ways than a math professor etc does nothing to even touch the point that it is the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be in authority over those placed under them.



Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems then female teacher assistants who only grade papers would be unbiblical then?


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## Caroline

smhbbag said:


> Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then teaches them why that means the Word of God reads as X and not Y.
Click to expand...


Women here on this board will hold forth that the Word of God reads as X and not Y. I once explained to a minister (not here, but in another context) the errors of his theory that the dual plural for a certain word in the first chapter of Genesis was of special spiritual significance just because it was a dual plural. I pointed out that that word was ALWAYS a dual plural and there just wasn't another way to say it. I don't think the passage in Timothy intended that women are never RIGHT about anything. It specifically mentions teaching in an authoritative context in the church. I don't deny that some sort of vague case could be made out regarding seminary teachers (because they are teaching people who include some who will go into ministry), but it is a very vague one, and there is a twisting and winding path to get there. Like I said, a teacher's authority is only over exams and such. When I had students who left my class and went straight out to get drunk, or when they smooched their homosexual partner outside in the hallway before class, there wasn't anything I could do about it. I expect that this female professor has no ecclesiastical authority, and that if she DID feel that some action needed to be taken regarding the faith or life of a student, she would have to call on (male) leadership to deal with the matter. 

I don't feel strongly that seminaries SHOULD have female teachers, but in this case, it seems to be a wild overreaction to say that a woman is in authority over a man. A woman clearly UNDER authority at the seminary is teaching a class on the Hebrew language. She is not leading church services or conducting church discipline, as far as I know. If she is, I will join the "hang her" brigade, but under the circumstances, it seems about as harmless as having a woman teaching high school Spanish. Some guy who took her class and went on to become a pastor might use the knowledge to help him in his ministry on a mission trip to Uruguay, or even to decide whether his Spanish translation of the Bible is a good translation, but I don't think he'd feel like he was under the authority of Mrs. Gonzalez, his high school teacher.

Biblically speaking, we might consider that the Bible includes stories (and even direct quotations and songs) from women such as Miriam, Ruth, Esther, and Mary. Pastors preach on what we can learn from these. None of these women held a position of ecclesiastical authority. But they still were allowed to speak (although not from a position of pastoral authority), and sermons today extol them as powerful lessons.


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## Goodcheer68

Caroline said:


> I don't feel strongly that seminaries SHOULD have female teachers, but in this case, it seems to be a wild overreaction to say that a woman is in authority over a man.


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## lynnie

_Biblically speaking, we might consider that the Bible includes stories (and even direct quotations and songs) from women such as Miriam, Ruth, Esther, and Mary. Pastors preach on what we can learn from these. None of these women held a position of ecclesiastical authority. But they still were allowed to speak (although not from a position of pastoral authority), and sermons today extol them as powerful lessons. _

Nice insight, thanks. I was thinking yesterday of how Philip had four daughters that prophesied and wondering what that looked like. Maybe beautiful songs of praise......


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