# is this a form of divination?



## Megs (Jun 26, 2016)

Is my family member's practice a form of divination?

Background: My husband and I have recently decided to sell our house. We made our decision after looking at the current market and with prayer, asking God for wisdom, consulting with our elders and other godly people, etc. Every person, whether a believer or unbeliever, thinks it is a good idea for us to sell at this time -- except for my in-laws. When we discussed our decision with my in-laws, they demanded to know what Bible verse God had given us to confirm to us whether or not we should sell our house. They advised us that when they need to make a decision, they pray to God and then He supposedly pops a Bible verse into their heads that answers their question. My in-laws attend a Pentecostal church but do not own the Pentecostal label and get extremely offended if that is used around them.

Is my in-laws' method of determining God's will a form of divination?

If so, can you link me to any articles or books that thoroughly explain this in layman's terms so that I can show it to my in-laws for their consideration?

Thank you!


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## Pilgrim (Jun 26, 2016)

Whether or not this is technically a form of divination is a question I'll leave for others. 

As for me, I think I might respond to this kind of thing by saying "What Bible verse do you have that mandates that God has to give us a Bible verse to confirm whether or not we should make a certain decision?"


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## ThomasT (Jun 26, 2016)

I don’t know your in-laws, of course, but I’ve met many Christians like them – and from my experience it’s impossible to make them aware of their superstition. Your task (enlightening your in-laws) is a hopeless one. You and your husband should simply take the action that strikes you as the most prudent.


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## Megs (Jun 26, 2016)

Pilgrim said:


> "What Bible verse do you have that mandates that God has to give us a Bible verse to confirm whether or not we should make a certain decision?"



That was my response 



ThomasT said:


> Your task (enlightening your in-laws) is a hopeless one.



It definitely seems hopeless. And yet for over 20 years I witnessed to a relative who was trapped in a false religious system and in the past couple of years that relative has, I believe, come to Christ and is now attending my church. So, while I don't expect to convert my in-laws to my way of thinking, if they are opening to discussing matters of religion, I don't mind trying to scatter seed where I can.


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## jwithnell (Jun 26, 2016)

It requires a discipline of seeing scripture within the whole. No matter what you say, the response will be along the lines of "God showed me," or prooftexting. Politely listen to their advice, do what you think is best, and lead by example by your own consistent study of the word and careful application of the texts within their context.


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## OPC'n (Jun 26, 2016)

So they think that there's a scripture that tells you whether or not to buy or sale a house? I guess I don't get it. Maybe ask them where that scripture is. If they actually find something like that then just show them what the scripture actually means.


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## alexandermsmith (Jun 27, 2016)

It's not divination and it's not superstition. It's actually a very old practice which you'll find amongst some of the most godly and Reformed/calvinistic churches. You will often read in the journals of the godly from times past of verses coming to mind in particular situations or as a result of providences in their lives. In Scotland it used to be common for those seeking admittance to the ministry to "have a text" which confirmed them in their desire to apply.

What I would caution against is making it into some sort of mechanical process. There are many situations in life where we just have to weigh the balances- in the light of Scripture- and make a decision. But when we pray for guidance in a situation- which I'm sure we all do when making such big decisions- what are we actually expecting in response? A lot of the posts in this thread suggest: nothing. That is far more problematic than any "superstition" about seeking the Holy Spirit to open up a text to you, or apply a text to your mind, when trying to find a way forward.


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## timfost (Jun 27, 2016)

I've never heard this before. Here are some thoughts:

1. Since there is no mandate in Scripture to find a bible verse to validate a decision, it is some kind of tradition of men (Matt. 15:1-6).

2. Buying and selling real estate is attributed to wisdom in Prov. 31. No mention of finding bible verses to validate a sale.

3. If we are restricted to find a bible verse to validate a significant event (i.e. buying/selling a house), are we also in need of validating less significant events with bible verses? 

4. Prayer is the method in which we ask God for our daily needs ("give us this day our daily bread"). He guides us with His word, but He doesn't give us _new revelation_ to validate or invalidate our petition. The issue at hand has to do with providence, not morality.


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## alexandermsmith (Jun 27, 2016)

They weren't asking for new revelation: they were asking for God's (already) revelation to be applied to them in a way which would guide them in that situation.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 27, 2016)

OPC'n said:


> So they think that there's a scripture that tells you whether or not to buy or sale a house? I guess I don't get it. Maybe ask them where that scripture is.



They probably mean that God should give them a scripture that has special significance for them, not for people in general. It means attributing to a scripture an interpretation that is personal, not intended to give the same meaning to someone else. It is to get a meaning out of a Scripture that God did not intend. (See the Confession below)


Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 1
IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (_*which is not manifold, but one*_), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.


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## chuckd (Jun 27, 2016)

He who gathers in summer is a prudent son, but he who sleeps in harvest is a son who brings shame. Prov. 10:5

Selling your house at the height of the market seems like a wise decision. Of course, you have to also buy at the height of the market.


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## Toasty (Jun 27, 2016)

Megs said:


> Is my family member's practice a form of divination?
> 
> Background: My husband and I have recently decided to sell our house. We made our decision after looking at the current market and with prayer, asking God for wisdom, consulting with our elders and other godly people, etc. Every person, whether a believer or unbeliever, thinks it is a good idea for us to sell at this time -- except for my in-laws. When we discussed our decision with my in-laws, they demanded to know what Bible verse God had given us to confirm to us whether or not we should sell our house. They advised us that when they need to make a decision, they pray to God and then He supposedly pops a Bible verse into their heads that answers their question. My in-laws attend a Pentecostal church but do not own the Pentecostal label and get extremely offended if that is used around them.
> 
> ...



It's not a form of divination. 

Decisions should be based on biblical principles. Ask them how they arrived at the conclusion that you should not sell your house at this time. Ask how is it inferred from biblical principles that you should not sell your house at this time.


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## Megs (Jun 27, 2016)

chuckd said:


> Of course, you have to also buy at the height of the market.



We've got this taken care of. We will be renting until the market goes down again and then purchasing. If all else fails, we have a family member's cottage we can live in for free for some time. 



alexandermsmith said:


> It's actually a very old practice which you'll find amongst some of the most godly and Reformed/calvinistic churches.



Can you clarify this for me? I get having Bible verses come to mind that pertain to a situation. What I am having an issue with is the idea that you have to get a personal Bible verse from God or else you can't go forward with a decision. My family member once needed to quit a job due to inability to handle its demands but refused to do so until there was a personal message from God. Then, the quitting happened in a way that was not beneficial to all. That seemed off to me.



Ed Walsh said:


> They probably mean that God should give them a scripture that has special significance for them, not for people in general.



That's the way I understood my in-laws. It seems they use the Scripture somewhat like a Ouija board...they pray and then whatever verse pops into their head is a direct message from God telling them what to do. They reject asking for guidance over minor decisions like picking which colour of shirt to wear. But for major decisions they believe you can't do anything unless you get a specific personal verse-message from God.

If this is not a form of divination, what would it be called? Mysticism? I am trying to find a "label" for this practice so I can research it more. Thanks!


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## johnny (Jun 27, 2016)

It seems to me akin to superstition when God in his mercy has freed us from these vain things.

As an experiment, I reflected on this thread last night and thought "What is the first scripture that comes to my mind in regards to it" First I thought of King Saul, taking it into his own hands to offer the sacrifice and Samuels rebuke. And then strangely, I thought of Jeremiah 36 where King Jehoiakim burns the scroll and Jeremiah has to rewrite it at Gods direction. 

I came up with these scriptures on reflection by trying to find a context that is similar in the bible to the situation you describe but I think Ed has nailed it so I'm really not adding much now.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 27, 2016)

Megs said:


> If this is not a form of divination, what would it be called? Mysticism?



No, I think divination is a pretty good word for it.


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## jambo (Jun 27, 2016)

I would not call it divination but bad hermeneutics. This way of looking for verses to prove or confirm a decision leads to misapplying verses or taking them out of context. If you are looking for a verse to confirm a house move then you could probably find as many to say you shouldn't move at all.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 27, 2016)

I grew up under a Pentecostal preacher (grandfather), and started out in a Pentecostal school / church. Typically, the charismatic groups will have a bible in their hand, but it always smells new. They don't wear it out.
In those circles, I always press the need to read the Bible, because they genuinely don't. They like to follow the Spirit (their idea of what that means because its easier).
If they are seeking Scripture for things they need to do, I would ask them, apart from those kinds of studies, how often do they actually sit down and read through it in a year? How much of it have they memorized? How many times have they read through Scripture from beginning to end? Etc.Etc. People need to fall in love with their bibles like it is a love letter sent to them from Christ. Most of the time, its a paper weight.


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## alexandermsmith (Jun 28, 2016)

Megs said:


> chuckd said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, you have to also buy at the height of the market.
> ...



As I say, don't make it mechanical and one shouldn't endlessly procrastinate, but seeking a Bible verse or a portion of Scripture to guide one in one's thinking seems a very good thing to do. And remember: verses have their immediate context, but they also have spiritual application which transcends the immediate context.


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## chuckd (Jun 28, 2016)

Megs said:


> chuckd said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, you have to also buy at the height of the market.
> ...



In that case, I recommend not trying to time the market.  Why must the market go down?


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## Megs (Jun 28, 2016)

chuckd said:


> Megs said:
> 
> 
> > chuckd said:
> ...



Well, it's like this: We don't live in the best of areas but suddenly our area is in high demand so that people from a larger city want to move to it. Housing values have approximately tripled in the past 4 years. But...we're not rich. To buy another house at this time would mean we get another major fixer upper given the current market. If we wait a bit, we can move to a nearby city and take advantage of slightly lower prices to get a better place to live, meaning less fixing up to do and hopefully a better neighbourhood where my kids can play outside safely without having to be supervised at all times, even when they are in our backyard. This is important to us because I have hip problems and sometimes don't have great mobility. 

Also, waiting a bit would enable my husband to pursue one of his dreams. While we rent, he would have the ability to pursue his dream to see if it can turn into a career opportunity for him or not. If not, we would purchase sooner, but if so, then that would further greatly improve our ability to get our family into a better house and safer neighbourhood. If we purchased in the nearby city right away, my husband's commute to work would be longer, and that would not be beneficial for us given my hip issues. So that is why we want to delay purchasing for at least a little while.


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## johnny (Jun 28, 2016)

Not wanting to change the subject Meg but I really enjoyed your beautiful blog paddlingupcreek


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## Edward (Jun 28, 2016)

chuckd said:


> Why must the market go down?



(So the 1% can make more money off the rest of us)


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## Megs (Jun 28, 2016)

johnny said:


> Not wanting to change the subject Meg but I really enjoyed your beautiful blog paddlingupcreek



Thank you for your very kind words. I hope I can continue to be an encouragement to others. My tagline used to be "Reforming Life One Verse At A Time" but I feel I moved into more of a contending phase at this point in my life. I guess you can see from my blog that I've been reading the Puritan Board for a long time! (Thanks to all of you who post such great thoughts for me to quote ).


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