# Why the supposed failure in the Netherlands Dr. Trueman / George Grant



## PuritanCovenanter

It seems there is a disconnect of historical knowledge between what Carl Trueman says about the Netherlands (Abrham Kuyper’s influence) and what George Grant gives as a reason for the supposed failure of Kuyper.


“And Kuyper failed to effect any lasting transformation of society. Just visit Amsterdam today, if you can bear the pornographic filth even in those areas where the lights are not all red.” Carl Trueman


Did Kuyper truly fail Dr. Trueman or was there some force of evil that put the work down as persecution to Christians has done before in Persia, North Africa, and China?







http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2013/08/cigar-smoke-and-mirrors-and-tr.php


George Grant gives a good synopsis on how Hitler went out to destroy a dead mans (Abraham Kuyper) influence and work.


http://stevemacias.com/kuyperianvisiongrant.mp3


I was glad to gain the knowledge George Grant provided because it explains a lot of why things went downhill for the Netherlands when they had such a fertil soil to work and thrive in.




> Hitler was obsessed with Kuyper, a man who had been dead for twenty years when Hitler launched his attack on the Netherlands. What high praise for this man whose chief desire was to bring true praise and honor to the Lord Jesus.
> 
> 
> Why did Hitler fear a man that had been dead for twenty years? Hitler feared Kuyper’s view on the role of God in everyday life. For Kuyper believed that God continually influenced the life of believers, and daily events could show his workings. As Kuyper famously said, “Oh, no single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’”
> 
> 
> Kuyper lived out this notion and helped create a culture completely juxtaposed to the world order that Hitler had hoped to impose.


Hear Dr. George Grant as he orates on the significance of the Kuyperian Worldview.


Listen here:
Download mp3: http://stevemacias.com/kuyperianvisiongrant.mp3


Please enjoy the mp3 by George Grant. The original source for it is found here. The Man Hitler Feared Most: Abraham Kuyper - SteveMacias.com

Things aren't always as they appear Dr. Trueman. I would call it a result of persecution during WWII instead of failure. 

Why the Failure in the Netherlands since Kuyper? Trueman / Grant | RPCNA Covenanter


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## Semper Fidelis

It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.


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## RamistThomist

I've been meaning to listen to the talks, but I did have one idea come to mind: I am not an expert on Dutch history, but wasn't there already a move towards liberalism before Hitler? Something about Kuyper being dissatisfied with the state church and "going Dutch."


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## Guido's Brother

We have discussed the claims of Grant before. Some of us also discussed them at length on Facebook. The conclusion: they don't seem to hold water. If someone shows the primacy sources, I'll back down. Until then, we should be careful in propagating this account of Hitler and Kuyper.


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## PuritanCovenanter

As noted in the thread referenced by Wes...
"I was able to get the info you refer to while visiting the Corrie Ten Boom house in the Netherlands. I bought a little book there, "There Will Always Be Trouble," by Aarlen V. Toop (1961). Though the translation was at times strained, the material, largely the personal testimony and recollections of a member of the Dutch Underground, has proved to be invaluable. It is anecdotal in nature, but it seems to comport with what we know of the Dutch occupation period." George Grant.


I guess we should question both sides. It is definitely troublesome how Hitler used the Church and persecuted it. He seems to have bought the lie, "Hath God said?" as German Higher Criticism bought into. There is no denial about how the Dutch underground had an impact in the Netherlands during the war. There were definitely many situations that seem to have caused the Netherlands to go array. I just don't think Trueman's implication that Kuyper failed is the correct assessment. Something changed but I don't think it was because of Kuyper's views or that those views failed.


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## Guido's Brother

I highly recommend the recent biography by James Bratt on all this. Review here.


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## Peairtach

I think the Dutch societal structure of "Pillarisation" might have something to do with the situation that Trueman is talking about. If you're going to have extreme pillarisation, you have the danger of extreme ghettoisation, and of the Christian salt not interacting with large parts of the societal meat.

But at the end of the day there has been a vertiginous spiritual and moral rebellion and decline in the West since the '60s, that no amount of Christian cultural transformation, could hold back or deny. That doesn't
mean that it is of no value in context.

It's interesting that Trueman mentions toilet attendants, and class considerations of "transformationists". In a recent thread I came to the conclusion, that for motive, goal and normative extent, a Christian toilet attendant can more truly fulfil the Cultural Mandate, than the most cultured and talented unbeliever. This should encourage us all, whatever our legitimate callings or cultual activities.

Remember that Adam was "only" a gardener, and our Lord was "only" a joiner.







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## PuritanCovenanter

Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?


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## SRoper

Peairtach said:


> It's interesting that Trueman mentions toilet attendants, and class considerations of "transformationists". In a recent thread I came to the conclusion, that for motive, goal and normative extent, a Christian toilet attendant can more truly fulfil the Cultural Mandate, than the most cultured and talented unbeliever. This should encourage us all, whatever our legitimate callings or cultual activities.
> 
> Remember that Adam was "only" a gardener, and our Lord was "only" a joiner.



All I know is I've seen plenty of conferences regarding Christians and the arts but none about Christians and the trades.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Does anyone know of the work George Grant is referring to by Otto Klassen? I am supposing that is how you spell the name. I can't find any reference.


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## Guido's Brother

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?



I've never heard of that before and never seen any proof of it. Some Free University grads were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators in WWII. In the late 1930s, the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands had over 8000 members who were also members of the Dutch Nazi party.


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## Edward

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Otto Klassen



Mennonite documentary filmmaker? 

Otto Klassen fonds


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## MW

Semper Fidelis said:


> It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.



Well said!

"But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand."


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## Peairtach

Guido's Brother said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of that before and never seen any proof of it. Some Free University grads were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators in WWII. In the late 1930s, the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands had over 8000 members who were also members of the Dutch Nazi party.
Click to expand...


Fascism of all varieties was to some extent a reaction to the threat of Communist revolution. That doesn't justify it or the antisemitism of some of its types, but it is a partial explanation as to why some Christian people would hitch their wagon to it, before the full extent of the Nazis' wickedness had become apparent.

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## PuritanCovenanter

Well, I am beginning to wonder about the resources used. I am finding nothing to back this stuff up. I still have my reservations about what Trueman stated also.


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## MW

> The psalms of lament teach us that it is only when we have realistic horizons of expectation will we be able to stand firm against what is coming.



Preparing for the worst should not prejudice hoping for the best. The laments of Psalm 22 are all the more inviting because they are not only heard but vindicated in the universal victory which follows.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I can appreciate the sentiment Trueman has in some of this Rev. Winzer. Cigar Smoke and Mirrors and Transformation I am not necessarily middle class either. I fall well below much of the income level of many. I don't truly think Keller is an option for the so-called transformationalist. He has too many problems theologically and allows to many strange things at Redeemer in my opinion. I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means. Many want to make it about a Social Liberal Gospel which I do not hold to. I do agree with Kuyper, "There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’" I do believe that the Nations should submit to Christ as King. I also believe that history proves when the Church and State work together under His Kingship the people do much better and the Church and people thrive with more liberty to do what is correct in loving our neighbor the way they should be. There sure seems to be a lot less lawlessness. At the same time we all still need a lot of mercy and grace. Plus doctrinal integrity has been more solid and developed when the Church and State have come together 'looking to the Word of God' as during the times of certain counsels and even with our Beloved Westminster Standards. I just think Trueman and Hart are missing the mark. 

I fully accept that we may be in for a time of persecution and mayhem. It has always existed on this planet. Look at Egypt today. We all have acquaintences in persecuted lands. Why shouldn't it happen here? At the same time I believe we should pray as our Lord taught us. They Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven... so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:10,11 Defeatism seems to be the accepted norm of the Day. The people perish for a lack of knowledge and as King David noted that comes from the Law of God.

Additional note. King David wrote a lot of Psalms waiting for deliverance from persecution. No one is setting that aside I don't believe but we work in the vineyard still calling upon all men to repent everywhere. One sows, one waters, The Lord gives the increase.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I think Bill said it much better than I could. Let's give credit where credit is due. He had the same problem with the failure comment I had. 

http://theecclesialcalvinist.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/lets-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/


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## Pilgrim

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means.



What is in view with the epithet is basically the idea that there is any such thing as a "Christian Worldview" and perhaps specifically the idea that there ought to be a move toward "Christianizing" (i.e. transforming) society in any sense. This would include taking a negative view of everything from Carl F.H. Henry's "Uneasy Conscience" (a big influence on SBTS) to Neo-Calvinism (Kuyper) to theonomy. "Transformationalism" is seen as antithetical to the mission of the church. It's a word that I've primarily, if not exclusively, seen E2kers use. (I'm not sure that Trueman is exactly making an E2k point here although he does evidently agree with them on toilet cleaners. I think his point is more aimed at the perceived failure of Keller's ministry in this regard.) 

I've got no clue whether or not Grant's assertions hold any water. The sense I got years ago was that Kuyper's disciples eventually lost their salt i.e. they continued to be involved in politics but that they made various compromises where the Gospel was concerned. But I can't remember where I picked that up. It's possible that I could have wrongly equated it in some sense (or too closely associated it) with what I saw as errors made by the recent evangelical political activists in the USA with things like the Manhattan Declaration and ECT.


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## RamistThomist

Pilgrim said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've got no clue whether or not Grant's assertions hold any water. The sense I got years ago was that Kuyper's disciples eventually lost their salt i.e. they continued to be involved in politics but that they made various compromises where the Gospel was concerned. But I can't remember where I picked that up. It's possible that I could have wrongly equated it in some sense (or too closely associated it) with what I saw as errors made by the recent evangelical political activists in the USA with things like the Manhattan Declaration and ECT.
Click to expand...


F. N. Lee has some good sermons on this that are quite interesting, given his Afrikaaner backgroun.


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## Peairtach

I think Trueman's point about being naively optimistic in the current climate in the West is fair enough.

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## PuritanCovenanter

I believe he uses too much hyperbole and too many strawmen in the blogs for them to be a reliable understanding of the situation. He is only revealing his colors in my estimation concerning the debate. Weren't the Europeans considered the Lost Generation after WWI? It took a lot out of them on all sides. They still haven't recovered. (but I do see some wonderful things happening over in Europe.) We are now becoming that also for many of the same reasons I believe. Higher criticism, (Hath God said?) Deceitfulness of ******, the lust of the Flesh, departure from the Standards that were confessed, etc. Sure things are bad and might be for generations but it shouldn't stop us from proceeding in truth and pursuing truth. Who knows? Maybe God will bring revival in all areas of life. Even for the Toilet bowl cleaning guy. Come on. Some of the comments are just out there. A Conference for Toilet Bowl Cleaning to the Glory of God? This is just over the top stuff. BTW, there have been plenty of conferences on a person's vocation and the Glory of God.


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## jwithnell

Well, pulling church and state together resulted in both my physical and spiritual ancestors being run out of England. (In the physical case, because my family members were Friends; in the spiritual sense because I trace much of my thinking to the New England puritans.) Oh, and the union of the Roman church and Europe did little to preserve purity, and ultimately the unity, of the church.


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## PuritanCovenanter

> DG’s critique at Old Life of the bombastic claims about transformationism is akin to one I have made frequently in the classroom about talk of the [singular] ‘Christian worldview’: such things are, by and large, code for the expression of the concerns of the middle class chatterati in a blandly Christian idiom. As far as I know, for example, no conferences on the transformation of Christian toilet cleaning or turkey rendering have yet been successfully organised.
> 
> This is where DG’s history of Calvinism is interesting. I was struck by his account of Abraham Kuyper. Here was a (probable) genius and (definite) workaholic who had at his personal disposal a university, a newspaper and a denomination, and also held the highest political office in his land. We might also throw in to the mix that he did this at a time when European culture was far more sympathetic to broadly Christian concerns than that of the USA today. And Kuyper failed to effect any lasting transformation of society. Just visit Amsterdam today, if you can bear the pornographic filth even in those areas where the lights are not all red.
> 
> 
> Forgive me for sounding curmudgeonly here but I heard last week from a PCA friend who cannot find space to rent for his church on a Sunday because of the PCA’s stand on gay marriage. And this is south of the Mason-Dixon, not Boston or Seattle or New York. Yes, it is great that stockbrokers are finding Christ; and I am sure there are some for whom the fact there are Christian artists and Broadway producers is also an encouragement (are there any Christian loo cleaners out there in the Big Apple? ); and Tim Keller’s occasional spot onMorning Joe is an interesting, if somewhat harmless, phenomenon. But the culture is not being transformed at any point where it really counts, where it makes a real difference for pastors and people on the increasingly mean streets of the secular world as they seek to be quietly and peacefully faithful to the Lord. If anything, it is accelerating in the wrong direction.
> 
> 
> This is hardly surprising to anyone with any sense of history. Keller is no Kuyper and does not have at his disposal any of the institutional or political or cultural resources of which the Dutchman had so many and so much. And, to put it bluntly, Keller is the transformationists’ best shot today. It does not matter how often we tell each other that our celebrity transformationists are making headway, such claims are only so much delusional hype. A Broadway play and a couple of nice paintings do not help the man who cannot rent space to worship on the Lord’s Day. Indeed, I wonder if any of these transformationists have ever asked themselves whether what we are seeing are not in fact transforming inroads into the culture but the modern equivalents of bread and circuses designed to gull the gullible — meaningless trivia, conceded by the wider culture, that make no real difference; where and when the stakes are higher and actually worth playing for, no quarter is, or will be, given.
> 
> 
> Surely it is time to become realistic. It is time to drop the cultural elitism that poses as significant Christian transformation of culture but only really panders to nothing more than middle class tastes and hobbies. It is time to look again at the New Testament’s teaching on the church as a sojourning people where here we have no lasting home. The psalms of lament teach us that it is only when we have realistic horizons of expectation will we be able to stand firm against what is coming. If we do not understand that now, we are going to be sorely disappointed in the near future.



Richard, 
In all due respect brother, I can eat this up and spit it out refutation thought by thought. It might sound ungracious if I do. I wouldn't have any intent on being ungracious. There is a lot wrong with this stuff. There are some things that have a ring of truth to them. But there is so much wrong with this. Trueman says some pretty off the wall stuff in my estimation. But I am not one prone to hero worship either. So he won't get much of a defense from me. 

DG once challenged me about what my business was. I told him. I am not just a keyboard flunky. We actually do ministry here. All the way from the top State Capitol down to the beggarly streets and prisons where I am closer too. I have very well to do friends to very poor friends. And yes, we believe Christ makes a difference in peoples lives even when they aren't in the Church because He is Lord of all. Maybe Trueman needs to come to Indiana and visit for a bit so that he can view things from a Different angle. Maybe he has been in the Tower too long.


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## PuritanCovenanter

jwithnell said:


> Well, pulling church and state together resulted in both my physical and spiritual ancestors being run out of England. (In the physical case, because my family members were Friends; in the spiritual sense because I trace much of my thinking to the New England puritans.) Oh, and the union of the Roman church and Europe did little to preserve purity, and ultimately the unity, of the church.


We are not debating Erastianism here. No one is for that. Not even the Conservative Confessional Anglicans I know. By the way, I am a descendant of William Bradford. I can prove that. Remember the Mayflower Compact?


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## jwithnell

> We are not debating Erastianism here.


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## PuritanCovenanter

jwithnell said:


> We are not debating Erastianism here.
Click to expand...

You give up too easy. . LOL.


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## Peairtach

I think Trueman's relating of Kuyper's work with the present state of parts of Amsterdam sounds a bit simplistic. 

Anyway, who's to say that the real gains Kuyper made in his day, at another time in history wouldn't have been so easily thrown away.

As regards toilet attendants, if there is snobbishness among " transformationalists" there's no.reason why that can't be adjusted and corrected. Maybe there's sometimes a focus on the arts because there is more to discuss and debate on how to be a Christian artist rather than how to be a Christian toilet attendant.

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## py3ak

The overall point is really very simple. Why do we expect things from Tim Keller that Abraham Kuyper, with greater gifts and in more favorable circumstances, couldn't deliver? The question at the end of Trueman's piece, about whether some of the positive things we see are not simply meaningless concessions meant to pacify the church until her position is such that no pacification is necessary, is worth pondering. It seems unlikely that no Christians were put off with meaningless or deceitful concessions at the time of the Restoration, for instance: and Calvin was always alive to that danger, especially from the Emperor. 

Of course, it might be noted in Keller's favor that he is not a politician. On that point, the sober Matthew Henry observes:



> Those that minister about holy things should neither entangle themselves, nor be entangled, in secular affairs. The ministry is itself work enough for a whole man, and all little enough to be employed in it.
> 
> The Israelites must not come nigh the tabernacle, but then the Levites must have no inheritance in the land; if ministers expect that people should keep in their sphere, and not intermeddle with sacred offices, let them keep in theirs, and not entangle themselves in secular affairs.
> 
> Nothing is more likely to ensnare ministers, than bringing them to meddle with controversies about civil rights, and to settle landmarks between the prince and the subject, which it is fit should be done, while it is not at all fit that they should have the doing of it.



(_Commentary_ on Numbers 1:49, Numbers 18:22, Mark 12:14)


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## PuritanCovenanter

I think it is a moot point you are making Ruben. I say that with all due respect as you are much better learned and better theologically. So I am willing to be set in my place. Israel is not as we are (The temple Veil was Torn apart) and they had Dominion that was set up to recognize the Law of God in all realms of Society. I believe that is supposed to be true today. Not in the sense of modern day Theonomists. I believe General Equity is very important concerning the Decalogue as Calvin probably did. I have let Calvin speak on his own about civil law here. 

John Calvin on Civil Government and Law. | RPCNA Covenanter


No one is looking for Paradise on Earth. Just what 1Ti 2:1,2 states.

 


> First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.




BTW, I am no scholar and I don't read Matthew Henry very often but weren't the Cities of Refuge under Levitical control and The Lord the Levite's possession who owned all? And weren't the Kings to be subject to the Prophets and Priests concerning God's Law?


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## py3ak

Randy, I'm afraid I have no idea how what you said connects with what I said. Theonomy, general equity, cities of refuge ... I'm really not sure what that has to do with the idea that the same person should probably not be both a minister and a magistrate simultaneously.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Don't both functions as ministers of God reward good and punish evil? Just in differing spheres of responsibility and also on levels of what is to be doled out? I don't know if Kuyper remained in his function as one who administered the Sacraments, Church discipline, along with his civil ties. Did he confuse the offices? Or did he recognize their stations and let the Church deal with Church discipline and the State deal with State discipline under God's law? They have differing functions and capacities. I am sure Geneva consulted with Calvin and the Elders on civil matters as a Ministers of the Gospel. Shouldn't the state consult the Word of God?

I was mostly referring to your Matthew Henry quote.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Ruben, also I don't think anyone is looking for a Vicar of Christ on Earth. Christ already holds his position and defined things. I believe the Confessions reflect that. That is why there are separate offices. Even in our Church Government.


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## PuritanCovenanter

BTW, I believe we are off topic concerning Trueman.


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## py3ak

Well things certainly aren't getting any clearer. But Henry's position that ministerial work requires the whole man, able to concentrate on that vocation to the exclusion of others, is not an anomaly.


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## PuritanCovenanter

But even then the Minister must minister God's word to the Magistrate.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

One of the things that annoys me about the whole Kuyperian/Neo-Kuyperian/E2K conversation is that both sides flatly ignore the Covenanter view (or even just plain old 1646 WCF 23) and act like Kuyper or WSCAL are the only two options here. When in my estimation both Kuyper and E2K get it wrong.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Thanks Ben. I am not as familiar with Kuyper and need to understand him better. But that is a side issue here. I am a Covenanter.


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## py3ak

PuritanCovenanter said:


> But even then the Minister must minister God's word to the Magistrate.



Of course; the whole counsel of God includes instructions for judges to judge justly, and that whole counsel is exactly what the minister must give himself to proclaiming. That does not mean, of course, that there are not things fit to be done which it is not fit for the ministers to do. The apostles gave themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word even in preference to oversight of the distribution of church resources. Paul could even put preaching above baptism, which is clearly within the scope of a ministerial calling.


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## Wayne

PuritanCovenanter said:


> jwithnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not debating Erastianism here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You give up too easy. . LOL.
Click to expand...


That's the Friends side of her family speaking.


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## PuritanCovenanter

> Duty is ours. Results are God's. We are the people of means, and God is the God of making those means positively effectual (as we perceive it) or not, as He so pleases. He has prescribed means that we are to take up, regardless of our thinking as to how the execution of those means will procure something, one way or the other. God doesn't need our "help"; He commands our obedience.


Josh, I wish I was so eloquent with words. You sit and listen and speak. I am more like a Peter who will be rebuked by His Lord.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Wayne said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwithnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not debating Erastianism here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You give up too easy. . LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's the Friends side of her family speaking.
Click to expand...

It aint her Scottish or Irish side if she has some. LOL Not even her Norse side if she has that. We won't go to the English side which I have little of. LOL. I do have some as I have indicated. But I am conflicted. LOL


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## Marrow Man

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> One of the things that annoys me about the whole Kuyperian/Neo-Kuyperian/E2K conversation is that both sides flatly ignore the Covenanter view (or even just plain old 1646 WCF 23) and act like Kuyper or WSCAL are the only two options here. When in my estimation both Kuyper and E2K get it wrong.



Is this, in part, because neither side (or at least the Presbyterian one) holds to the original wording of the WCF 23 concerning the magistrate? To put it another way, since the wording of the Confession here has been changed in most of the American versions of the WCF, it is any wonder that solutions are sought elsewhere?


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## irresistible_grace

> Duty is ours. Results are God's. We are the people of means, and God is the God of making those means positively effectual (as we perceive it) or not, as He so pleases. He has prescribed means that we are to take up, regardless of our thinking as to how the execution of those means will procure something, one way or the other. God doesn't need our "help"; He commands our obedience.


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## Hamalas

PuritanCovenanter said:


> DG’s critique at Old Life of the bombastic claims about transformationism is akin to one I have made frequently in the classroom about talk of the [singular] ‘Christian worldview’: such things are, by and large, code for the expression of the concerns of the middle class chatterati in a blandly Christian idiom. As far as I know, for example, no conferences on the transformation of Christian toilet cleaning or turkey rendering have yet been successfully organised.
> 
> This is where DG’s history of Calvinism is interesting. I was struck by his account of Abraham Kuyper. Here was a (probable) genius and (definite) workaholic who had at his personal disposal a university, a newspaper and a denomination, and also held the highest political office in his land. We might also throw in to the mix that he did this at a time when European culture was far more sympathetic to broadly Christian concerns than that of the USA today. And Kuyper failed to effect any lasting transformation of society. Just visit Amsterdam today, if you can bear the pornographic filth even in those areas where the lights are not all red.
> 
> 
> Forgive me for sounding curmudgeonly here but I heard last week from a PCA friend who cannot find space to rent for his church on a Sunday because of the PCA’s stand on gay marriage. And this is south of the Mason-Dixon, not Boston or Seattle or New York. Yes, it is great that stockbrokers are finding Christ; and I am sure there are some for whom the fact there are Christian artists and Broadway producers is also an encouragement (are there any Christian loo cleaners out there in the Big Apple? ); and Tim Keller’s occasional spot onMorning Joe is an interesting, if somewhat harmless, phenomenon. But the culture is not being transformed at any point where it really counts, where it makes a real difference for pastors and people on the increasingly mean streets of the secular world as they seek to be quietly and peacefully faithful to the Lord. If anything, it is accelerating in the wrong direction.
> 
> 
> This is hardly surprising to anyone with any sense of history. Keller is no Kuyper and does not have at his disposal any of the institutional or political or cultural resources of which the Dutchman had so many and so much. And, to put it bluntly, Keller is the transformationists’ best shot today. It does not matter how often we tell each other that our celebrity transformationists are making headway, such claims are only so much delusional hype. A Broadway play and a couple of nice paintings do not help the man who cannot rent space to worship on the Lord’s Day. Indeed, I wonder if any of these transformationists have ever asked themselves whether what we are seeing are not in fact transforming inroads into the culture but the modern equivalents of bread and circuses designed to gull the gullible — meaningless trivia, conceded by the wider culture, that make no real difference; where and when the stakes are higher and actually worth playing for, no quarter is, or will be, given.
> 
> 
> Surely it is time to become realistic. It is time to drop the cultural elitism that poses as significant Christian transformation of culture but only really panders to nothing more than middle class tastes and hobbies. It is time to look again at the New Testament’s teaching on the church as a sojourning people where here we have no lasting home. The psalms of lament teach us that it is only when we have realistic horizons of expectation will we be able to stand firm against what is coming. If we do not understand that now, we are going to be sorely disappointed in the near future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard,
> In all due respect brother, I can eat this up and spit it out refutation thought by thought. It might sound ungracious if I do. I wouldn't have any intent on being ungracious. There is a lot wrong with this stuff. There are some things that have a ring of truth to them. But there is so much wrong with this. Trueman says some pretty off the wall stuff in my estimation. But I am not one prone to hero worship either. So he won't get much of a defense from me.
> 
> DG once challenged me about what my business was. I told him. I am not just a keyboard flunky. We actually do ministry here. All the way from the top State Capitol down to the beggarly streets and prisons where I am closer too. I have very well to do friends to very poor friends. And yes, we believe Christ makes a difference in peoples lives even when they aren't in the Church because He is Lord of all. Maybe Trueman needs to come to Indiana and visit for a bit so that he can view things from a Different angle. Maybe he has been in the Tower too long.
Click to expand...


Randy, Trueman has a British accent; your argument is invalid.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Hamalas said:


> Randy, Trueman has a British accent; your argument is invalid.



I guess you have a point there Ben.


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## py3ak

I'm a little curious as to what people think Trueman means by cultural elitism. Or what they would point him to as an instance of something so trending toward a recrudescence of Christian influence that his friend unable to rent a place for worship because of his views can be safely dismissed as a minor glitch. But I'm more interested in the first.


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## Unoriginalname

py3ak said:


> I'm a little curious as to what people think Trueman means by cultural elitism. Or what they would point him to as an instance of something so trending toward a recrudescence of Christian influence that his friend unable to rent a place for worship because of his views can be safely dismissed as a minor glitch. But I'm more interested in the first.



I appreciated his remarks about elitism because I come from a church where many of us are at or below the poverty line in the US. We are not artists and playwrights trying to engage the culture, we are a church of receptionists, construction workers, gas station attendants, nursing aids and teachers. For the most part we have little worldly influence but we make up the everyman of Philadelphia. I really think that conferences geared at the artists miss us. I want to know how I live as a Christian in the world as a nurse. Too much of what is sold as transformationalism is geared to people way above my pay grade.


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## Peairtach

Unoriginalname said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a little curious as to what people think Trueman means by cultural elitism. Or what they would point him to as an instance of something so trending toward a recrudescence of Christian influence that his friend unable to rent a place for worship because of his views can be safely dismissed as a minor glitch. But I'm more interested in the first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciated his remarks about elitism because I come from a church where many of us are at or below the poverty line in the US. We are not artists and playwrites trying to engage the culture, we are a church of receptionists, construction workers, gas station attendants, nursing aids and teachers. For the most part we have little worldly influence but we make up the everyman of Philadelphia. I really think that conferences geared at the artists miss us. I want to know how I live as a Christian in the world as a nurse. Too much of what is sold as transformationalism is geared to people way above my pay grade.
Click to expand...


"playwrights" 

I think the emphasis on the arts and culture in these conferences is there because there are more variables involved than say, being a toilet attendant; they are perceived to have an influence on the way people think and act, depending on whether they are corrupt or Christian; and even although we may not be Christian artists, we all make use of the arts and culture to some extent.

But living as Christians in more "mundane" or "menial" occupations shouldn't be forgotten - our Lord was a carpenter, Adam was a gardener, Peter, Andrew, James and John were fishermen, David and Amos and Moses were shepherds, Luke was a doctor, Lydia was a seller of purple (businesswoman), Paul had been trained as a tentmaker, etc, etc.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## mvdm

> Duty is ours. Results are God's. We are the people of means, and God is the God of making those means positively effectual (as we perceive it) or not, as He so pleases.





Semper Fidelis said:


> It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.



Exactly correct. Trueman stands in judgment of God's working out the fruits of Kuyper's work, finds it wanting, and fallaciously concludes that pressing Christ's claims in all areas must be misguided.


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## a mere housewife

If I am understanding correctly, I actually think Dr. Trueman is making a very specific point about people he calls 'chatterati'? (I have met people who at least aspire to be culturally elite, and I don't honestly believe anyone here is it.) He is saying that if Kuyper with better gifts, more resources, in a better time, didn't succeed, the optimism of this particular group of people that the arts are going to usher in the eschaton (those I have spoken to assign a quasi redemptive function to certain artsy/upper class activities, but not to for instance, nursing or toilet cleaning) is a bubble that is probably going to burst.​ And when it does, the simple word of God is going to bear us through.

I have been pressed with my 'duties' by people who tend toward chatterati-ism. The 'one thing needful' is minimalised, and lack of zeal for a particular upper-middle class hobby is seen as a spiritual failing.

Dr. Trueman may not have phrased everything in the best way: people often don't. But I think his point about Kuyper is meant to be fairly limited and simple, applying in a very narrow way to a particular group of people.

edit:


> I think the emphasis on the arts and culture in these conferences is there because there are more variables involved than say, being a toilet attendant; they are perceived to have an influence on the way people think and act, depending on whether they are corrupt or Christian; and even although we may not be Christian artists, we all make use of the arts and culture to some extent.



'Though I speak with tongues of men and of angels, but have not charity, I am nothing.'

It is not the greatness of the act, but the love we do it with, that is significant, and that transforms society.


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## py3ak

Unoriginalname said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a little curious as to what people think Trueman means by cultural elitism. Or what they would point him to as an instance of something so trending toward a recrudescence of Christian influence that his friend unable to rent a place for worship because of his views can be safely dismissed as a minor glitch. But I'm more interested in the first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciated his remarks about elitism because I come from a church where many of us are at or below the poverty line in the US. We are not artists and playwrites trying to engage the culture, we are a church of receptionists, construction workers, gas station attendants, nursing aids and teachers. For the most part we have little worldly influence but we make up the everyman of Philadelphia. I really think that conferences geared at the artists miss us. I want to know how I live as a Christian in the world as a nurse. Too much of what is sold as transformationalism is geared to people way above my pay grade.
Click to expand...


Eric, you should win a prize for having grasped the point. It's a little ironic that the chatterati are often the people least capable of doing that.



mvdm said:


> Duty is ours. Results are God's. We are the people of means, and God is the God of making those means positively effectual (as we perceive it) or not, as He so pleases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly correct. Trueman stands in judgment of God's working out the fruits of Kuyper's work, finds it wanting, and fallaciously concludes that pressing Christ's claims in all areas must be misguided.
Click to expand...


Well, Rich and Josh are correct. But if we take the fact of Keller's relative prominence as a sign that the golden age is about to begin, it might come as a surprise when persecution breaks out. We do not know what a day may bring forth; but hoping for the best should not preclude preparing for the worst. Keller et al notwithstanding, on a societal level at the moment the trend is not towards a society more purely reformed by the word of God.


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## Hamalas

Here is Trueman's response to the push-back to the post under discussion: I hope to be proved wrong (really, I do) - Reformation21 Blog


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## mvdm

Hamalas said:


> Here is Trueman's response to the push-back to the post under discussion: I hope to be proved wrong (really, I do) - Reformation21 Blog



A response that is almost worse than his original piece.


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## fredtgreco

There is a huge difference between duty and source of optimism (or hope). What makes the Netherlands such am interesting example is that you have a combination of an historic Reformed (not just evangelical) church, an explicitly Christian head of State, legislation designed to promote Christianity, and a theology of reconstruction that has led, in a very short time, to one of the most pagan first world nations on the earth.


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## mvdm

fredtgreco said:


> a theology of reconstruction that has led, in a very short time, to one of the most pagan first world nations on the earth.



What do you mean by "theology of reconstruction", and when you say "led", are you suggesting causation?


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## Hamalas

mvdm said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Trueman's response to the push-back to the post under discussion: I hope to be proved wrong (really, I do) - Reformation21 Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A response that is almost worse than his original piece.
Click to expand...


Don't shoot the messenger!


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## fredtgreco

mvdm said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> a theology of reconstruction that has led, in a very short time, to one of the most pagan first world nations on the earth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by "theology of reconstruction", and when you say "led", are you suggesting causation?
Click to expand...

Not suggesting causation. _Post hoc_, not _propter hoc.

_By "theology of reconstruction," I mean a theology that seeks to reconstruct the cultural and world through (but albeit not solely through) political means.


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## VanDood

Having some connections to the Netherlands, I believe there is truth to what Trueman wrote. But a stronger critique of transformationalism might focus on the trajectory of the churches that embraced Kuyperianism rather than simplifying the complex influences that shaped the history of a nation. 

Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.


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## Peairtach

VanDood said:


> Having some connections to the Netherlands, I believe there is truth to what Trueman wrote. But a stronger critique of transformationalism might focus on the trajectory of the churches that embraced Kuyperianism rather than simplifying the complex influences that shaped the history of a nation.
> 
> Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.



What about "Pillarisation" in the Netherlands? Would that not lead to isolation from the rest of society? I can appreciate the need for Christian schools, but not e.g. Christian trade unions.



Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Hamalas

Peairtach said:


> VanDood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having some connections to the Netherlands, I believe there is truth to what Trueman wrote. But a stronger critique of transformationalism might focus on the trajectory of the churches that embraced Kuyperianism rather than simplifying the complex influences that shaped the history of a nation.
> 
> Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about "Pillarisation" in the Netherlands? Would that not lead to isolation from the rest of society? I can appreciate the need for Christian schools, but not e.g. Christian trade unions.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...


I'm not familiar with this term, could you elaborate?


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## MW

VanDood said:


> Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.



That is certainly more to the point and the basic underlying problem with "transformationalism."


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## PuritanCovenanter

armourbearer said:


> VanDood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is certainly more to the point and the basic underlying problem with "transformationalism."
Click to expand...


Maybe we need to recognize what Dr. Kinneer said here. ‘Modern Day Reformed Thought’ and Two Kingdoms | RPCNA Covenanter




> Here are very brief Stereo-Typical ways of understanding these issues according to the Host of the show.
> 
> 
> The Non Two Kingdom View is a Tranformationalist and or a Theonomic view saying, “If we can just make the culture Christian everything will Change and Christ’s Kingdom will come.”
> 
> 
> The Two Kingdom view says that Culture Transformation is not the job of the Church. The Church receives the Kingdom. It doesn’t create one. The job of the Church is to take the sacraments, hear the word preached, be fathers and mothers and plumbers and just go on with our life. If Jesus wants to do something through it and for us He can.
> 
> 
> Those are the two extremes…
> 
> 
> The Host then asks Dr. Kinneer if his definitions are correct.
> 
> 
> Dr. Jack Kinneer of Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
> replies,
> “What you have is the American A view and the American B view.”
> What you don’t have is the Historical C view.
> 
> 
> Amen Dr. Kinneer! That is what I have been trying to tell some of the guys who are writing and discussing this issue now days.
> 
> 
> Also Dr. Kinneer notes, that as all aberrations and heresies in theology tend to distort the doctrine of Christ, some of the types of two Kingdoms teaching distorts the doctrine of Christ also. A lot depends on how you define Two Kingdoms. I believe it should be called two fold government, to be more precise.
> 
> 
> Both definitions the host defined were basically true but fall short of the Historical doctrine. And I would declare that the most vocal Modern Day Reformed Church Seminary Professors have no idea what the Historic view is. I deduce this by what I am hearing come out of the mouths of today’s Seminary Students, Graduates, and their Professor’s writings and comments. I can also assess this by the personal discussions I have been having with these men and younger theologians who have been taught by these guys.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I want to know one thing because evidently I don't understand. What did Abraham Kuyper do that lead to debauchery in the Netherlands? I just don't know.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Aresponse to Carl Trueman, one from Anthony Bradley.


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## py3ak

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I want to know one thing because evidently I don't understand. What did Abraham Kuyper do that lead to debauchery in the Netherlands? I just don't know.



I'm no expert on Kuyper or Kuyper studies so this could be out there somewhere, but I haven't seen anyone make the argument that Kuyper _led_ to debauchery. The point made is that his heroic attempts at transformation from quite a strong platform didn't _prevent_ the slide. 

So when you come to our day, with less heroic attempts from a weaker platform there seems to be no historical reason to expect a better result. Claims of better results in the here and now, therefore, probably reflect a partial perspective or maybe gullibility.


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## PuritanCovenanter

And I disagree. Remove the Law of God from Society and you have what? Remove Christ and you have what? I asked a Lawyer friend of mind where his moral base came from. He said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I asked him where he got that. He was dumb founded. It came from my King.


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## PuritanCovenanter

What did Abraham Kuyper do that led to the debauchery of the Netherlands?


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## PuritanCovenanter

My people perish..... Lack of Knowledge. Modern day Natural Law? It aint what the Divine's thought.

Edit... http://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.co...-and-natural-law-question-for-dr-guy-richard/


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## py3ak

PuritanCovenanter said:


> And I disagree. Remove the Law of God from Society and you have what? Remove Christ and you have what? I asked a Lawyer friend of mind where his moral base came from. He said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I asked him where he got that. He was dumb founded. It came from my King.



I'm not sure if you're replying to me or someone else. If to me, I'm afraid you'll have to clarify what it is you disagree with, whether that the Netherlands is in a worse state now than it was under Kuyper or some other point.


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## PuritanCovenanter

It just seems that the failure comment might be a bit misunderstood as though Kuyper's work somehow comes up short. At the same time we might say the same thing about Moses' work I guess and he was under a specific Divine calling that was direct. I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this and I just need to let it go at this point.


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## Peairtach

Dr Kuyper didn't fail. His works are encouraging Christian people to think in a more full-orbed and consistent way about the Christian life.

There just need to be a few more converts to pick up his teachings, in America and Amsterdam. Only the Holy Spirit can do that through the preaching of the Gospel.

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## Backwoods Presbyterian

One of the points Nelson Kloosterman makes in his book-length review of David Vandrunen's work is that there is a three-volume work (_Pro Rege_) written by Kuyper specifically on the Church-State question that remains unpublished in English that would answer a lot of these questions, at least as they pertain to Kuyper.


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## py3ak

PuritanCovenanter said:


> It just seems that the failure comment might be a bit misunderstood as though Kuyper's work somehow comes up short. At the same time we might say the same thing about Moses' work I guess and he was under a specific Divine calling that was direct. I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this and I just need to let it go at this point.



If Dr. Trueman meant to _blame_ Kuyper for not doing better or for the current state of Amsterdam, I certainly disagree with that. But I haven't seen Dr. Trueman lay blame in that way. 

I think you can speak of failure in three ways: with regard to expectation, effort, and end. Everyone fails with regard to end, except Christ: we die, and our influence wanes. The institutions we created disappear or distort into something we would hate. Only the institution that Christ created cannot be prevailed against. 

We fail with regard to effort when we don't do our duty. Apart from specific points where we disagree with what duty might be, I don't think anyone here would accuse Kuyper or the Puritans of failure in regard to effort (or Moses, or David, or the Reformers, etc.). In broad terms, they were faithful in preaching God's word, in repenting from sin, and in running with patience the race set before them. If I may be permitted the observation, this is really the only category where "failure" can be a term of blame; and this is the only sort of failure we should be worried about.

But the third way is with regard to expectation. If Kuyper expected (and I don't know if he did or not) that his efforts in church and state would lead to a godly and prosperous Netherlands, it would seem he was disappointed: that hope failed, at least in the short term. The same thing could be said of the expectation of some Puritans that the millennium was about to be brought in - what came next turned out to be only the Restoration, with the disappointment and trouble that the Stuart monarchy brought along with it. It is in this sense that I understood Dr. Trueman's piece: the expectations people pin on Keller, etc., are misguided because a hundred years ago a better player with a better hand didn't beat the house.

But I don't mean to suck you into a discussion you'd rather step back from.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I can appreciate the interaction and helping try to clear this up. Just knowing DG and the reference to him seems to indicate there is more to this and maybe I don't need to go there. Thanks Ruben.


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## MW

The failure is in the fallen world's inability to receive the light. The success is in the grace of God which operates so effectually as to enable a man to sacrifice his life in the service of his Lord. The judgment day will bring this to light, when everything that is hidden shall be revealed. Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen. At that point there is great need to go back to the cross of Christ and learn what it means to glory in it.


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## mvdm

armourbearer said:


> Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen. At that point there is great need to go back to the cross of Christ and learn what it means to glory in it.



Amen.


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## ZackF

armourbearer said:


> Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen.



I would go further and say that the "value estimations" of labour (sic lol) seen nowadays go to the level of full blown self-righteous judgment. I am tired of men on both sides of the 2k and non-2k debate blaming each other for the collapse of Western Civilization and at times doing so in a ways in which they all but write each other out of Christianity. Sickening!


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