# Seminary question



## SolaSaint (Jul 25, 2013)

I was watching an old video clip from Gary Habermas today on Textual Criticism and he stated that in the 70s a great % of Seminary profs didn't believe in the bodily resurrection or Christ being God in the flesh. He says now the tide has changed and the greater % now believes. I've heard RC Sproul state a similar claim about Seminary educators. 

My question is when did this trend start concerning so many profs being liberal an unbelieving? Were the Seminary's back in the 1800s Orthodox, if so how did this infusion of liberal educators happen? Is there a good book on the subject?


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## TylerRay (Jul 25, 2013)

It came out of the German seminaries in the early 1900s. By the twenties, in was spreading quickly through American churches (notably, the Norther Presbyterian Church). This led to the Modernist-Fundamentalist controversy. In some cases new churches were formed due to conflicts, discipline and the like (such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church). In other cases, churches tried to adopt a moderate stance, so that both views were acceptable, and were eventually swallowed up in liberalism (like the Methodists).

The churches influenced the seminaries and the seminaries influenced the churches. Princeton was essentially forced into a moderate position overnight by the General Assembly of the PCUSA. It was the moderates--orthodox Christians who wanted to tolerate liberalism--that were always the ones to give the churches and seminaries over. Liberalism (like all heresy) is like cancer; when the moderate majority refuses to remove it, it spreads and infects the whole body, until there is no more soundness.

I hope that helps


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## SolaSaint (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks Tyler, I just cannot imagine the churches and universities/seminaries allowing such a think toa happen? I'm thinking the great advancements we've made in textual criticism today has lead to a more orthodox stance within the schools. Would you agree?


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 25, 2013)

Rick, if you are interested in learning more about how the SBC weeded out the liberalism that has overtaken the seminaries, I would recommend the book Uneasy in Babylon by Barry Hankins. I had to read it for Baptist History class and it was quite interesting. Amazon.com: Uneasy in Babylon: Southern Baptist Convservative and American Culture (Religion & American Culture) (9780817350819): Barry Hankins: Books


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## TylerRay (Jul 25, 2013)

SolaSaint said:


> Thanks Tyler, I just cannot imagine the churches and universities/seminaries allowing such a think toa happen? I'm thinking the great advancements we've made in textual criticism today has lead to a more orthodox stance within the schools. Would you agree?



Whether modern views of textual criticism have contributed or not, I don't know. I don't even know where I stand entirely on textual-critical issues. We can only attribute the building of the Church (and of the institutions under the Church's direction) to the Spirit of Christ.


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## SolaSaint (Jul 26, 2013)

Bill--Thanks, I will probably buy that boor another one by a guy named Sutton on The Baptist Reformation. What I would really like to read is a historical account of how the liberals took over our institutions back in the 1800-early 1900s.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 26, 2013)

If I remember my Baptist history correctly, it was never a case of liberals being the majority, but rather a case of conservatives being split over who to vote for for president, thus giving the presidency to the liberal candidate. The SBC president is the one who appoints seminary trustees, among other positions of influence. Eventually the conservatives decided to stop being divided over who to vote for, and so since the late 1970's, the conservatives have decided in advance who they were voting for, thus ensuring victory.


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## jehough (Jul 31, 2013)

Rick-
I don't know a great title that describes the takeover of liberalism, but Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer has a brief overview of the beginning in Germany. It's not a lot, but it would give you enough names to look into to get an idea.


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## N. Eshelman (Aug 1, 2013)

SolaSaint said:


> Bill--Thanks, I will probably buy that boor another one by a guy named Sutton on The Baptist Reformation. What I would really like to read is a historical account of how the liberals took over our institutions back in the 1800-early 1900s.



Not Baptist, but I am sure that there are many parallel lessons to be learned in "Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church." 

Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church: Gary North: 9780930464745: Amazon.com: Books 

Here is what the book description says, "This book details the step-by-step program of infiltration used by modernists to take over the Northern Presbyterian Church. The infiltration process began as early as 1870, culminating in the expulsion of the conservatives in 1936. It presents the compromised midway theology of the majority wing of the Church: New School Presbyterians and fundamentalists (after 1910). I t also shows why the conservatives were unwilling to defend the Westminster Confession through court actions against heretics except in the 1890's, and even then, they refused to deal with many of the fundamental theological issues. The conservatives, from Charles Hodge to J. Gresham Machen, were themselves unwilling to accept all of the Confession, especially in the key area of creationism. Because they crossed their fingers when they swore allegiance to the Confession, the modernists also crossed theirs, and all but six of them got away with it." 

It's a great read and sheds light on your question from a Presbyterian perspective.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 1, 2013)

The specific manifestation of liberalism is only a reflection of what was happening in German theology generally.

Following the period of post-Reformation scholasticism in both Calvinism and Lutheranism, we see two reactions: rationalism and pietism. Out of the seedbed of these ideas, and in reaction to them, the rise of liberalism, paradigmatically present in the theology of Schliermacher, turned the faith upside down.

Rationalism gives us the autonomous Enlightenment mind with its tendency to objectivy the Bible as a book to be examined like any other book. It is almost as if you could turn God into a frozen slice sample and put him under the microscope, subject to the autonomous reason of man. Pietism allows us to have a "personal" and subjective relationship with God, no matter how badly critical scholarship mangles the truth claims of Christianity. And, Schleiermacher completed the building of what we call liberalism. He agreed with Kant that religion was not a matter of knowledge nor of action either. Instead, he located religion in the “realm of self-conscious feeling."

"Liberalism" is a product of (and reaction to) the seemingly opposites of rationalism and pietism. As such, it is the quintessential nineteenth century theology. The toxic impact of it can be seen in a variety of negatives in the twentieth century.


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## christiana (Aug 1, 2013)

Would A Hill on Which to Die cover your area of interest?

Amazon.com: A Hill on Which to Die: One Southern Baptist's Journey (9780805426342): Paul Pressler: Books


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 1, 2013)

Rick, I'm a little late to the conversation, but you would likely find Greg Wills' book "Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1859-2009" (Oxford Univ. Press, 2009) an enlightening read. It deals with both the Seminary's and the SBC's struggles with theological liberalism.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 1, 2013)

Forgot to give you the link. Hope this helps! 

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1859-2009:Amazon:Books


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## MarieP (Aug 1, 2013)

reaganmarsh said:


> Rick, I'm a little late to the conversation, but you would likely find Greg Wills' book "Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1859-2009" (Oxford Univ. Press, 2009) an enlightening read. It deals with both the Seminary's and the SBC's struggles with theological liberalism.



I'd also recommend The Baptist Reformation by Jerry Sutton. Interestingly enough, I was reading the chapter on Southern Seminary when I came across the name of the man whose hiring at the PCUSA church I grew up in forced myself and more than half of the congregation to leave! He was openly homosexual and wanted to go to seminary in the 80's, but Southern wouldn't enroll him even then. So, he drove less than a mile, crossed the interstate, and went to the Presbyterian seminary instead. Interesting how paths cross, isn't it...

For the Presbyterian side of things, I highly recommend Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen. It was a real eye opener to me as I left the liberal church (I was PCUSA and then Disciples of Christ).


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