# Ergun Caner has himself tasered



## Josiah

[video=youtube;agjV0tbktvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agjV0tbktvQ&feature=related[/video]

wow.


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## SolaScriptura

What a moron. What was the point he was trying to make??? That being an anabaptist makes about as much sense as allowing oneself to be zapped???


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## ReformationArt

tazed and confused....


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## Archlute

Watch the related clip "Ergun Caner gets tased, brother". At the 00:50 mark you can clearly hear the guy who is making the video chuckle and say, "What an idiot..."

I'd agree with that opinion.


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## Poimen

I have heard of man made revivals but this is ridiculous.

Or is 50,000 volts the impetus behind being 'slain in the spirit'?


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## Reformed Covenanter

Mad.


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## Josiah

[video=youtube;o5OQcIHKOF0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5OQcIHKOF0&feature=related[/video]

He could apply for a job on the power team


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## Reformed Covenanter

joshua said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put that to an acronym.
> 
> *M*elodramatic *A*nd *D*umb.
Click to expand...


That sounds fitting.


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## SolaScriptura

They take the term "Jesus freak" to a whole new level...


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## ReformationArt

The Power Team - "Breaking Stuff for Jesus"

Our message - "Love God, and CHECK OUT THESE GUNS!!!!"


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## Bladestunner316

Normally Im against tasers but if it helps stop Ergun Caner from spreading heresy I might be ok with it. Especially when its self inflicted


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## shackleton

Where I live if the cops want to carry tazers they have to allow them selves to be tazered so they will know what it is like and will not go around tazering everybody. Maybe he is going to go around tazering people for Jesus or tazering those Calvinists he hates so much.


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## Bladestunner316

He knows were preparing for a calvinistic jihad influenced by arminian evangelical/ and catholic intervention in the christian church!!!


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## reformedcop

Just don't get this one


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## Blue Tick

WOW! 


Dr. Caner


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## JasonGoodwin

Bladestunner316 said:


> Normally Im against tasers but if it helps stop Ergun Caner from spreading heresy I might be ok with it. Especially when its self inflicted


It was meant to communicate a message. If you guys had listened to what he had to say afterwards, you would have understood his point.

As for Caner spreading heresy, I disagree with this. He is more of a Sandy Creek Baptist than a Charleston Baptist. I'll listen to him before I listen to Joel "Dr. Feelgood" Osteen.


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## VaughanRSmith

"Gee, getting tasered is worse than Muslims! But not quite as bad as Calvinists!"


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## Bladestunner316

Jason,
I beg to differ. He is a blatent arminian and hates calvinism. Stating its worse than Islam!!


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## Presbyterian Deacon

joshua said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a moron. What was the point he was trying to make??? That being an anabaptist makes about as much sense as allowing oneself to be zapped???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ReformationArt said:
> 
> 
> 
> tazed and confused....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch the related clip "Ergun Caner gets tased, brother". At the 00:50 mark you can clearly hear the guy who is making the video chuckle and say, "What an idiot..."
> 
> I'd agree with that opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Not my idea of a fun time.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

Josiah said:


> YouTube - THE POWER TEAM
> 
> He could apply for a job on the power team




I bet the Yellow Pages and Louisville Sluggers companies love those guys!


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## JasonGoodwin

Bladestunner316 said:


> Jason,
> I beg to differ. He is a blatent arminian and hates calvinism. Stating its worse than Islam!!


I've watched his lectures on the History of Baptists from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary's Distance Learning Program. I think he has a case there. He was a Muslim at one time. He also referenced back to Leonard Verduin's _The Reformers and Their Stepchildren_. Calvin, Luther, Beza, et. al. had little tolerance for the Anabaptists because they refused to put their children through State-mandated paedobaptism (which was used solely for taxation, _*not redemptive*_, purposes).


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## Bladestunner316

How on earth does he have case over one situation in the past? That does not make sense to me.

If these lectures are online could you send me a link?


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## Ivan

JasonGoodwin said:


> It was meant to communicate a message. If you guys had listened to what he had to say afterwards, you would have understood his point.



And what message did he communicate?


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## Hippo

JasonGoodwin said:


> Bladestunner316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jason,
> I beg to differ. He is a blatent arminian and s calvinism. Stating its worse than Islam!!
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched his lectures on the History of Baptists from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary's Distance Learning Program. I think he has a case there. He was a Muslim at one time. He also referenced back to Leonard Verduin's _The Reformers and Their Stepchildren_. Calvin, Luther, Beza, et. al. had little tolerance for the Anabaptists because they refused to put their children through State-mandated paedobaptism (which was used solely for taxation, _*not redemptive*_, purposes).
Click to expand...


While the attitude of the Reformers to anabaptists was not Calvinisms finest hour it is revisionism in the extreme to suggest that this attitude was rooted in taxation. 

Anabaptism was not by any stretch of the imagination what today would be seen as orthodox baptist belief. It involved a rejection of the Church both in function and authority. 

To say that Calvins attitude to anabaptism and paedobaptism was based on taxation (and by the way Zwingli made Calvin look like a liberal in this area) is really quite offensive. 

Do you really mean to say that someone who believes that Calvinism is worse than Islam has a point?


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## Josiah

JasonGoodwin said:


> As for Caner spreading heresy, I disagree with this. He is more of a Sandy Creek Baptist than a Charleston Baptist. I'll listen to him before I listen to Joel "Dr. Feelgood" Osteen.



 I dunno. I think given a choice I would listen to neither. I dont think it is profitable to be under the teaching or hearing of any false teacher, it is actually quite the opposite.



JasonGoodwin said:


> It was meant to communicate a message. If you guys had listened to what he had to say afterwards, you would have understood his point.



Perhaps it is worthwhile to note what the WLC has to say about such "communication":



> WLC Q. 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; *provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.*



In my humble opinion anyone that abuses the temple of the holy spirit is not worth listening to, but praying for.


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## panta dokimazete

Ergun Caner - not afraid to be tasered - afraid to be schooled by James White


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## No Longer A Libertine

I never understood how a bunch of beefcakes being destructive was supposed to correlate with the gospel.


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## JasonGoodwin

Bladestunner316 said:


> How on earth does he have case over one situation in the past? That does not make sense to me.
> 
> If these lectures are online could you send me a link?


I wish I could. I watched them on DVD.

You could also read the book that I mentioned.


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## JasonGoodwin

No Longer A Libertine said:


> I never understood how a bunch of beefcakes being destructive was supposed to correlate with the gospel.


The Power Team? It's easy to absorb something like that when we're spiritual infants. It could also be likened to spiritual child abuse.


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## JasonGoodwin

Josiah said:


> JasonGoodwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for Caner spreading heresy, I disagree with this. He is more of a Sandy Creek Baptist than a Charleston Baptist. I'll listen to him before I listen to Joel "Dr. Feelgood" Osteen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. I think given a choice I would listen to neither. I dont think it is profitable to be under the teaching or hearing of any false teacher, it is actually quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> JasonGoodwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was meant to communicate a message. If you guys had listened to what he had to say afterwards, you would have understood his point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is worthwhile to note what the WLC has to say about such "communication":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WLC Q. 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; *provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In my humble opinion anyone that abuses the temple of the holy spirit is not worth listening to, but praying for.
Click to expand...

In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.

I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher. Was he off-base for the tasing incident? Probably. False teacher? Definitely not. He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS. In other words,, they are able to work together.

Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?


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## JasonGoodwin

panta dokimazete said:


> Ergun Caner - not afraid to be tasered - afraid to be schooled by James White


That's only one man's account of events.

Read this: Home Site of Ergun Caner » A Statement from Ergun Caner regarding the Baptists and Calvinism Debate


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## Semper Fidelis

JasonGoodwin said:


> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JasonGoodwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for Caner spreading heresy, I disagree with this. He is more of a Sandy Creek Baptist than a Charleston Baptist. I'll listen to him before I listen to Joel "Dr. Feelgood" Osteen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. I think given a choice I would listen to neither. I dont think it is profitable to be under the teaching or hearing of any false teacher, it is actually quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is worthwhile to note what the WLC has to say about such "communication":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WLC Q. 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; *provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In my humble opinion anyone that abuses the temple of the holy spirit is not worth listening to, but praying for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.
> 
> I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher. Was he off-base for the tasing incident? Probably. False teacher? Definitely not. He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS. In other words,, they are able to work together.
> 
> Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?
Click to expand...


So, Jason, knower of the Scriptures, does the 6th Commandment, in its broader application, approve of or reject the harming of the body?


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## JasonGoodwin

SemperFideles said:


> JasonGoodwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. I think given a choice I would listen to neither. I dont think it is profitable to be under the teaching or hearing of any false teacher, it is actually quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is worthwhile to note what the WLC has to say about such "communication":
> 
> In my humble opinion anyone that abuses the temple of the holy spirit is not worth listening to, but praying for.
> 
> 
> 
> In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.
> 
> I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher. Was he off-base for the tasing incident? Probably. False teacher? Definitely not. He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS. In other words,, they are able to work together.
> 
> Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, Jason, knower of the Scriptures, does the 6th Commandment, in its broader application, approve of or reject the harming of the body?
Click to expand...

With all due respect, Rich, I don't know whether to laugh or grit my teeth over the "knower of the Scriptures" remark. Sounds to me more like "tongue in cheek."

Having said that, it was an illustration. Dr. Caner and everyone else there knew that when he did this. It's one thing to get tasered. It's another to subject onself through habitual cutting to release endorphines or taking a Black & Decker drill to one's head on a regular basis to release pressure off of the brain.

It was a one-time incident. I think that this is something that people really need to get over and not condemn the President of an outstanding seminary for something that some people consider to be unscriptural. I'm sure that he's cognizant that he will have to give an account for everything -- including the tasing incident. (BTW, you'll notice that he wasn't standing alone when that happened. He had other people supporting him to brace his fall.)


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## Semper Fidelis

JasonGoodwin said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JasonGoodwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.
> 
> I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher. Was he off-base for the tasing incident? Probably. False teacher? Definitely not. He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS. In other words,, they are able to work together.
> 
> Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, Jason, knower of the Scriptures, does the 6th Commandment, in its broader application, approve of or reject the harming of the body?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With all due respect, Rich, I don't know whether to laugh or grit my teeth over the "knower of the Scriptures" remark. Sounds to me more like "tongue in cheek."
Click to expand...

Well, I was just trying to understand what the Scriptures say since I'm one of those slugs that agrees with the Confessions and you seem to read the Scriptures directly for yourself. I'm trying to tap into your insights since you implied that you were undefiled by the Reformed Church's historical confession of the 6th Commandment and its broader application.



> Having said that, it was an illustration. Dr. Caner and everyone else there knew that when he did this. It's one thing to get tasered. It's another to subject onself through habitual cutting to release endorphines or taking a Black & Decker drill to one's head on a regular basis to release pressure off of the brain.
> 
> It was a one-time incident. I think that this is something that people really need to get over and not condemn the President of an outstanding seminary for something that some people consider to be unscriptural. I'm sure that he's cognizant that he will have to give an account for everything -- including the tasing incident. (BTW, you'll notice that he wasn't standing alone when that happened. He had other people supporting him to brace his fall.)



So, what's your answer about whether or not it is Scriptural to tase yourself in order to "help" the Scriptures make a point? Is there some sort of verse that allows the President of an "outstanding seminary" to be beyond criticism or discussion about the Scriptural propriety of an "extraordinary measure"? I've been teaching on sin and the foolishness of men for a while now and wonder if I should borrow a taser for the next worship service. I'll only do it once too.


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## Josiah

> In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.



Fair enough: *1 Kings 18 V. 27-30*

*"And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” 28 And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice. No one answered; no one paid attention.30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” And all the people came near to him."* 

I dont suppose that the people of Israel were inclined to listen to the ravings of prophets of Baal after they abused their bodies. Forgive me if I am not sold on using such methods of "communication" to make some sort of a point. To me it seems utterly pagan and has no place in Christ's church.

*1 Cor. 6:19-20*

*"19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."*

If we take this verse seriously as i know we both do, what are we to make of Caner's behavior? I hardly think you can say he was being simply "off-base".




> I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher



Really? Arminianism isnt false teaching (heresy)? help me to understand what you mean. 



> He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS.



That is neither here nor there. In my humble opinion this is not any indication of orthodoxy, but merely of someones ability to percieve the beliefs of others around them.



> Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?



No, but I am always willing to learn. I love church history, in fact if you have any resources pertaining to the differences between these two groups, i would like to see them . PM me any info you have.


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## Kevin

What a loon. Did he have a point?


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## PuritanCovenanter

Jason, 
Read this blog by Tom Ascol on Sandy Creek. Your history has been played with and is innaccurate. Brother the Craners are no friend of anyone Calvinistic. And you are correct. They both will be held accountable for how they handled themselves,the gospel, and those who were sound in the Gospel. 

Founders Ministries Blog: Happy Birthday Sandy Creek



> PRINCIPLES OF FAITH OF THE SANDY CREEK ASSOCIATION - 1816
> 
> 1. We believe that there is only one true and living God; the Father, Son, and Holy
> Ghost. equal in essence, power and glory; and yet there are not three Gods but one
> God.
> 
> 2. That Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are the Word of God, and only
> rule of faith and practice.
> 
> 3. That Adam fell from his original state of purity, and that his sin is imputed to his
> posterity; that human nature is corrupt, and that man, of his own free will and
> ability, is impotent to regain the state in which he was primarily place.
> 
> 4. We believe in election from eternity, effectual calling by the Holy Spirit, and
> justification in his sight only by imputation of Christ righteousness. And we believe
> that they who are thus elected, effectually called, and justified, will perservere
> through grace to the end, that none of them be lost.
> 
> 5. We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead, and a general
> judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked
> will be eternal.
> 
> 6. The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful persons, who have
> obtained fellowship with each other, and have given themselves up to the Lord and
> one another; having agreed to keep up a godly discipline, according to the rules of
> the Gospel.
> 
> 7. That Jesus Christ is the great head of the church and that the government thereof
> is with the body.
> 
> 8. That baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of the Lord, and to be
> continued by his church until his second coming.
> 
> 9. That true believers are the only fit subjects of baptism; and that immersion is the
> only mode.
> 
> 10. That the church has no right to admit any but regular baptized church
> members to communion at the Lord's table.



Also check out this article by Josh Powell. Shubal Stearns and the Separate Baptist Tradition

Tom Nettles has his hands in this article.


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## Pilgrim

There may have been differences between Sandy Creek and Charleston, but both were Calvinistic.


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## JasonGoodwin

I think I've said more than enough on what needed to be said about Ergun Caner being tasered. The whole discussion has gone way beyond this: 


The cat and mouse game is over.


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## PuritanCovenanter

JasonGoodwin said:


> In all honesty, I don't even pay attention to the WLC or WSC anymore. (I adhere more to the 1677/89, but even that is not the Bible itself.) The answers are in Scripture, not a Confession. Confessions are a display of a systematic belief system. I will let the Bible speak for itself, TYVM.
> 
> I disagree with your assertion that Caner is a false teacher. Was he off-base for the tasing incident? Probably. False teacher? Definitely not. He has even admitted that there are Calvinistic faculty members at LBTS. In other words,, they are able to work together.
> 
> Let me ask you this question: Do you know the difference between a Charleston Baptist and a Sandy Creek Baptist?



Just a few notes Jason. In some places concerning the Covenant of Works the WCF is much better than the 2nd LBCF. They aren't in any disagreement. The WCF just does a better job. Many Reformed Baptists will acknowledge that unless they are Baptists who are not Confessional and are in fact New Covenant Theologians. The Westminster and Savoy Declaration are very important documents that clearly state biblical doctrine. There is very little difference between the three and more people would have a better grasp of scripture if they really read these documents. 

I don't know of any truly Calvinistic Baptist teachers at Liberty. There may be some who claim to be a supposed 4 point Calvinist but that is just an Amyraldian. I would rejoice to know if there were any true Calvinists. 

Anyways, if you are getting your Sandy Creek info from Craner's course that you watched on DVD you should be aware of any other stuff he is teaching in the course as it is probably suspect also.

Love ya brother,
Randy


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## Zenas

I have said it before and I'll say it again, if this man has a doctorate, then I deserve one as well.

Also, I think referring to Liberty Theological Seminary as a great seminary is overreaching a bit. It is a seminary. Past that, I dunno.


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## Josiah

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Jason,
> Read this blog by Tom Ascol on Sandy Creek. Your history has been played with and is innaccurate. Brother the Craners are no friend of anyone Calvinistic. And you are correct. They both will be held accountable for how they handled themselves,the gospel, and those who were sound in the Gospel.
> 
> Founders Ministries Blog: Happy Birthday Sandy Creek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRINCIPLES OF FAITH OF THE SANDY CREEK ASSOCIATION - 1816
> 
> 1. We believe that there is only one true and living God; the Father, Son, and Holy
> Ghost. equal in essence, power and glory; and yet there are not three Gods but one
> God.
> 
> 2. That Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are the Word of God, and only
> rule of faith and practice.
> 
> 3. That Adam fell from his original state of purity, and that his sin is imputed to his
> posterity; that human nature is corrupt, and that man, of his own free will and
> ability, is impotent to regain the state in which he was primarily place.
> 
> 4. We believe in election from eternity, effectual calling by the Holy Spirit, and
> justification in his sight only by imputation of Christ righteousness. And we believe
> that they who are thus elected, effectually called, and justified, will perservere
> through grace to the end, that none of them be lost.
> 
> 5. We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead, and a general
> judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked
> will be eternal.
> 
> 6. The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful persons, who have
> obtained fellowship with each other, and have given themselves up to the Lord and
> one another; having agreed to keep up a godly discipline, according to the rules of
> the Gospel.
> 
> 7. That Jesus Christ is the great head of the church and that the government thereof
> is with the body.
> 
> 8. That baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of the Lord, and to be
> continued by his church until his second coming.
> 
> 9. That true believers are the only fit subjects of baptism; and that immersion is the
> only mode.
> 
> 10. That the church has no right to admit any but regular baptized church
> members to communion at the Lord's table.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also check out this article by Josh Powell. Shubal Stearns and the Separate Baptist Tradition
> 
> Tom Nettles has his hands in this article.
Click to expand...



Thank you for providing me those links Martin, I will have plenty of reading to do!


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## Grymir

"Don't tase me Jesus, with your irisisable spirit!!", Ergun Caner said before the clip was shot.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Josiah said:


> Thank you for providing me those links Martin, I will have plenty of reading to do!




No Problem.


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## BobVigneault

Ergun Caner fights Popeye!


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## Gloria

Josiah said:


> YouTube - Ergun Caner Gets Tazed
> 
> wow.



Why? What was the purpose of that? Anyone have a longer vid of this?


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## Josiah

Gloria said:


> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Ergun Caner Gets Tazed
> 
> wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? What was the purpose of that? Anyone have a longer vid of this?
Click to expand...


There are longer videos on youtube of the incident that you can find, but not all of them are from good angles.


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