# Amazing Earthly Achievements, worth the effort?



## AThornquist (Apr 1, 2010)

This is a sincere thread and any uncharitable claims of fault-finding won't be useful or edifying. Thanks. 


What value is there in amazing earthly achievements such as being the best swimmer, youngest person to sail around the world, top model, or fastest pull-upper in history? Other than being "cool," which these things are, are they worth pursuing if vast hours of effort are lost in preparation? Is such effort in accordance with Ephesians 5:16 ('make the best use of time, for the days are evil')? Also, where in Scripture is an earthly medal seen as valuable, or are the worthwhile treasures only in heaven?


----------



## JML (Apr 1, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> This is a sincere thread and any uncharitable claims of fault-finding won't be useful or edifying. Thanks.
> 
> 
> What value is there in amazing earthly achievements such as being the best swimmer, youngest person to sail around the world, top model, or fastest pull-upper in history? Other than being "cool," which these things are, are they worth pursuing if vast hours of effort are lost in preparation? Is such effort in accordance with Ephesians 5:16 ('make the best use of time, for the days are evil')?


 
Depends on the motive. For the most part I agree with you, but what if one of them is your job. Wouldn't you want to be the best that you can be at your job. Obviously, not for prideful motives but to do well for your employer. For those of us who are not full time ministers, our callings in life include worldly employment.

Or are you speaking exclusively about recreational activities?


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 1, 2010)

You raise a very good question. 

For the most part this is in reference to recreational activities, although I suppose employment would also need to be considered if it requires many hours away from the church and family.


----------



## Skyler (Apr 1, 2010)

"I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice."


----------



## VictorBravo (Apr 1, 2010)

There's another aspect to it. God created us to be skilful, to learn and tend to the whole world. Appreciating excellence in any activity is part of our created nature.

Of course, our nature is fallen and we are misguided in the target of our quest. But the pursuit of excellence is not the evil.

I'm not so ready to make a recreation/work distinction. My work does not generally require me to study theology, for example, but I do try to improve myself in that field.

And, even my more selfish hobbies, such as playing music or making wine, reflect a love of creation that was given to me. 

I agree that the pursuit of earthly honor is a vain thing, but the pursuit of excellence in all that they do, to the glory of God, is a good thing for Christians.


----------



## Montanablue (Apr 1, 2010)

I agree with Victor, I think we have to look at motivation. Even the study of God's Word can be profitless if the motivation is human pride rather than glorifying God. 

Generally, I think achievement that displays the abilities of the human mind and body show the wonderful manner in which God has created us. The ability of Michael Phelps' body or a physicists mind show the ability and glory of the Creator. (And that's where our focus should be when we push ourselves to excel)


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 1, 2010)

Thank you, Victor; I agree. 

At what point does the effort become not worth the reward? For example, if pursuing excellence in a "selfish hobby" requires considerable dedication and thus time away from family and the Body, would the pursuit of excellence need to be reconsidered? Certainly, wise judgment is necessary on a case-by-case basis most of the time, but at what point does "pursuing excellence" become vanity?


----------



## Montanablue (Apr 1, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> Thank you, Victor; I agree.
> 
> At what point does the effort become not worth the reward? For example, if pursuing excellence in a "selfish hobby" requires considerable dedication and thus time away from family and the Body, would the pursuit of excellence need to be reconsidered? Certainly, wise judgment is necessary on a case-by-case basis most of the time, but at what point does "pursuing excellence" become vanity?


 
I think a simple test is to see if the pursuit is causing you to sin.


----------



## Rich Koster (Apr 1, 2010)

Victor beat me to the punch.


----------



## JML (Apr 1, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> Thank you, Victor; I agree.
> 
> At what point does the effort become not worth the reward? For example, if pursuing excellence in a "selfish hobby" requires considerable dedication and thus time away from family and the Body, would the pursuit of excellence need to be reconsidered? Certainly, wise judgment is necessary on a case-by-case basis most of the time, but at what point does "pursuing excellence" become vanity?


 
No hobby should take you away from the house of the Lord.

*Isaiah 58:13-14*
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, *from doing thy pleasure* on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


----------



## Idelette (Apr 1, 2010)

God does give skills, talents, interests, and wisdom that we may glorify Him by these things. Even unbelievers bring glory to God as He is the one who gives these talents. For the believer ,though, we bring a greater glory to the Lord as we do these things to honor Him and take delight in Him. But, if it is something that overshadows the gospel or places a greater precedence on the achievement itself at the expense of worshipping God or bringing Him the honor, than I would say it is a worthless and vain thing! That's why I just love the quote in my signature..... it really looks at the intentions of our hearts and the motivations of our actions: 

_"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -Thomas Brooks_


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 1, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, Victor; I agree.
> ...


 
Yeah. That _is_ simple; valid too, I suppose. In that case, it would have to be brought back to how much time is being invested. If so much time is being invested that we are "not making the best use of time," it would be sin. The definition of the "best use" would be helpful then. Within that verse it is clear that choices must be made in regards to what activities are chosen and how much time is allotted to them, though wisdom would need to dictate the best choice. That is the purpose of the OP actually; certain principles must be considered in making the best choice. 
It seems like it would be difficult to defend the misuse of the Lord's day for the sake of achievement since that too would be sinful, but here would be a very helpful time to know the role of the family and church. I'm just thinking out loud here, but without knowing the roles of the family and church it would be impossible to wisely determine the time needed to fulfill those responsibilities.


----------



## Montanablue (Apr 1, 2010)

Right, and asking "Is this causing me to sin?" although its a simple question may need to lead to some not-so-simple soul searching. I would hope that it pursuing a goal was causing someone to sin that their friends and family would gently talk to them about it. Its easy to know that we shouldn't be doing homework on a Sunday, but its harder to know if we're neglecting family etc.


----------



## py3ak (Apr 1, 2010)

You mean amazing achievements like this one?

[video=youtube;pYU7oG2V7uc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYU7oG2V7uc[/video]


----------



## Andres (Apr 1, 2010)

One day we will all stand before the Lord. As Christians we know that we will be judged righteous before a holy God, not on our own merits (thank God) but on the righteousness of Christ. So we do not have to worry if God will accept us or not, but I do think we will give an account for our lives. I am pretty sure that when I am face to face with Christ, I will greatly regret time I spent trying to accomplish "cool" things over time I could have spent in prayer, worship, and service to Him. I already regret so many of those things. What eternal value does being the best (insert earthly achievement here) have?


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 2, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> Right, and asking "Is this causing me to sin?" although its a simple question may need to lead to some not-so-simple soul searching. I would hope that it pursuing a goal was causing someone to sin that their friends and family would gently talk to them about it.* Its easy to know that we shouldn't be doing homework on a Sunday*, but its harder to know if we're neglecting family etc.



I wanted this thread to be more general but I'm really confused by the statement that "it's easy to know that we shouldn't be doing homework on a Sunday." What about recreational activity that requires one to not only do unnecessary work on a Sunday but in fact completely miss worship? A lot of things could qualify, such as going to football games, extended weekend hunts, etc., but what about the sailing girl? We spoke of her in a recent thread and you did not mention any concern about her Sunday activities. (Of course, we could use any generic "sailing person" because when considering real people, especially those we admire, our perspectives can be sometimes skewed. I am often guilty of this.)


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 2, 2010)

py3ak said:


> You mean amazing achievements like this one?
> 
> [video=youtube;pYU7oG2V7uc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYU7oG2V7uc[/video]



Didn't I see him in a James Bond movie once? I would be depressed to know it was a voice over then also. LOL

BTW, What do you all feel about doing homework for seminary or Bible college on the Sabbath.


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 2, 2010)

Lol that Russian singer has made his rounds on the internet. It is hilarious


----------



## Montanablue (Apr 2, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Right, and asking "Is this causing me to sin?" although its a simple question may need to lead to some not-so-simple soul searching. I would hope that it pursuing a goal was causing someone to sin that their friends and family would gently talk to them about it.* Its easy to know that we shouldn't be doing homework on a Sunday*, but its harder to know if we're neglecting family etc.
> ...


 
My point was that some things are obviously sinful (doing homework on a Sunday) while other things take more discernment. 

Also, when an individual has achieved something incredible, I do not find it worthwhile to immediately start searching for ways in which they possibly could have sinned.


----------



## Andres (Apr 2, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> I wanted this thread to be more general but I'm really confused by the statement that "it's easy to know that we shouldn't be doing homework on a Sunday." What about recreational activity that requires one to not only do unnecessary work on a Sunday but in fact completely miss worship? A lot of things could qualify, such as going to football games, extended weekend hunts, etc., but what about the sailing girl? We spoke of her in a recent thread and you did not mention any concern about her Sunday activities. (Of course, we could use any generic "sailing person" because when considering real people, especially those we admire, our perspectives can be sometimes skewed. I am often guilty of this.)


 
Andrew, a confessional (and for me that means biblical) honoring of the Lord's Day would include forsaking all those activities you mentioned, including the young woman sailing. 



PuritanCovenanter said:


> BTW, What do you all feel about doing homework for seminary or Bible college on the Sabbath.


 
Randy, this violates the confession because it is work that is not neccessary. WCF 21:8 says, _"This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and *ordering of their common affairs beforehand*, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy."_
It specifies that we have a responsibility to prepare ahead of time for the sabbath, so those things which we can do beforehand, such as homework, should be done Saturday. Just as I would discourage a student from doing their math or economics hw on the Lord's day, a seminary student is no different.

---------- Post added at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 AM ----------




Montanablue said:


> My point was that some things are obviously sinful (doing homework on a Sunday) while other things take more discernment.
> 
> Also, when an individual has achieved something incredible, I do not find it worthwhile to immediately start searching for ways in which they possibly could have sinned.


 
I see your point but sailing for pleasure on the Lord's day is obviously wrong. No one needed to "search for ways"; it was quite conspicuously sinful.


----------



## Montanablue (Apr 2, 2010)

Andrew, I don't want to get into a keeping the Sabbath argument. In fact, this is going to be my last comment on this thread, because its quickly becoming ridiculous. There are many arguments to be made (that have been made by ppl on this board) in favor of engaging in recreational activities on the Sabbath. I understand that you may have a conviction against this and I certainly respect that. However, saying that sailing on the Sabbath is "obviously sinful" is a bit of a stretch. 

I'm done.


----------



## Herald (Apr 2, 2010)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> BTW, What do you all feel about doing homework for seminary or Bible college on the Sabbath.


 


Andres said:


> Randy, this violates the confession because it is work that is not neccessary. WCF 21:8 says, _"This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and *ordering of their common affairs beforehand*, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy."_
> It specifies that we have a responsibility to prepare ahead of time for the sabbath, so those things which we can do beforehand, such as homework, should be done Saturday. Just as I would discourage a student from doing their math or economics hw on the Lord's day, a seminary student is no different.



Interesting. What if a seminary student is taking a class in Hebrews. Does that mean the student should not read Hebrews on the Lord's Day because it may be considered to be work? Makes one think, doesn't it? Could not seminary be considered preparing for ministry, and thus part of the duties of a minister? Are we not called to be in the Word? We may be using too sharp a knife on these things.


----------



## Tripel (Apr 2, 2010)

Like Kathleen, I'm probably going to have to limit my participation in this thread because I find this so ridiculous. But here we go....

There are two types of conversations to be had over issues like this. The one is to marvel in the feats of the creative, skillful, and hardworking man. The other is to slice and dice certain activities and pursuits, while weighing their worth and rightness. 

BOTH of those conversations are appropriate. 

What I find frustrating, however, is that conversations like the first cannot seem to take place on the PB without the second conversation thought to be necessary.

We are all fairly bright people who find agreement on the essential truths of our faith. And we are all pretty good at thinking biblically and rationally about what we see in the world around us. But sometimes we (and I am including myself in this) are a little too prone to turn a casual and fun conversation into a debate about right and wrong.


----------



## py3ak (Apr 2, 2010)

Daniel, you make a good point, and in some moods I would almost entirely agree with you. However, it is by reason of use that our senses are exercised to discern both good and evil. No doubt, one of the areas we could exercise that discernment is by figuring out which conversations it is appropriate to direct to an ethical question and where that would be unfortunate (as doing push-ups is good, but probably not at a nice restaurant). However, let me remind people that this is a thread Andrew started _precisely to ask an ethical question_, when he got pushback for raising that ethical question in the admiration/entertainment thread. So if on that the thread it was out of place to ask what eternal value the pursuit of youngest solo circumnavigator had, here it is complaints about ethics questions which are out of place.


----------



## Tripel (Apr 2, 2010)

Ruben,
I'm not objecting to the question Andrew posed here. It is fitting.


----------



## py3ak (Apr 2, 2010)

I understand that Daniel, though calling the thread ridiculous doesn't exactly seem like a commendation of its fittingness. I think the answer to your frustration is the two-thread solution: no one is obligated to read both, so every one can focus on whichever one they prefer. Spoilsports can stay away from whichever sort of sport they have no taste for.


----------



## Tripel (Apr 2, 2010)

I didn't mean to imply this particular thread is ridiculous. I'm glad this particular discussion was carried over into a new thread, where it belongs. What I was referring to is the general tendency to get into the rights and wrongs of everything. 

And yes, I'm probably being a spoilsport on this particular thread, but ONLY because the spoilsports from the other thread enticed me to respond to their spoilsportiness with my own attempt to spoil their sport.... or something like that.


----------



## Andres (Apr 2, 2010)

Herald said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, What do you all feel about doing homework for seminary or Bible college on the Sabbath.
> ...


 
Bill, the difference is in why the student chooses to read Hebrews. Reading it for worship and personal devotion is commendable; in fact it is precisely what _should_ be done on the Lord's day. Studying for tests and doing homework changes the attitude of the heart because then it becomes an obligation or work. This is not to say that a seminary student only does homework begrudgingly and does not enjoy their work, but it is still an obligation nonetheless. As for the duties of a minister argument, only those duties which are neccessary for worship or acts of mercy should be done. For example, leading the congregation in worship is necessary and good. Visiting the sick is an act of mercy and good on the Lord's day. Office and administration duties are part of the work of a minister, but they can and should be put off for another day, as should homework.


----------



## AThornquist (Apr 2, 2010)

Thank you Andres and others for interacting with the questions. With the confession you quoted and the plain Scripture text in mind, I'm not sure how anyone can be consistent while claiming that we should not profane the Lord's Day or neglect the gathering of the saints while at the same time admiring activities that do both of these things. No express defense has been given of activities that require unnecessary work and time on the Lord's Day although apparently trying to get to a biblical understanding of the matter is "ridiculous."


----------



## VictorBravo (Apr 2, 2010)

Moderation

OK, I recommend that the word "ridiculous" be banished from any further postings. 

Sometimes the smallest things can derail a thread. I didn't realize this was a spin-off thread from another and that this thread was carrying baggage. I think the original question is a good one, but there is a real problem when some know what the underlying dynamic is and some do not. 

So, let the thread continue on the specific apparent question, which seems to be about celebrating earthly achievements when the pursuit of such achievement could lead to sin. Of course, that raises the question of whether the achiever is Christian or not, and whether that makes a difference.

So, do you all think the thread can proceed profitably along these lines?


----------



## Mindaboo (Apr 2, 2010)

I think that when amazing earthly achievments take the place of the Lord and hinder us from worship they aren't worth the effort.

My children all play music and while they don't earn medals for this they do a lot of times earn the praise of man when people come watch them perform. My stand with them in their music is that I do not expect them to be the best there is, but to be the best they can be. I think that is what honors the Lord. They can still earn the praise of man for their performance and glorify the Lord at the same time. We spend up to three hours a day or more at times with practice, lessons, and orchestra lessons. Is it worth it? I personally think so as long as it isn't taking the place of the Lord. They are also expected to give back with their talents by serving our church with those talents. 

My son earned a medal for obtaining Memory Master at our co-op and it was good. For him it represented months of intense work that had a reward. 

I think the discipline it takes to acquire these things is commendable, but not at all cost. For unbelievers this all they have, earthly achievements. For the Christian we can have these and honor and glorify the Lord with our talents, time and effort. When it takes the place of the Lord then we have an idol and that should not happen.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 2, 2010)

This is a good question and one I have asked myself in slightly different context. At what point does pursing excellence turn into a waste of time? I think calling has a lot to do with it. In other words, I believe that God calls His children into all sorts of fields including ones that require an enormous amount of time. Being a concert piano pops into my mind. And what ever we are called to do we should do with all of our might. 

I think one of the things that we tend to forget is that unbelievers (like the girl sailing) are never going to get it right when it comes to the sabbath or obedience to God. However, I still think we can stand in awe of what God has created when we see what man can acheive.


----------



## Mindaboo (Apr 2, 2010)

> I think one of the things that we tend to forget is that unbelievers (like the girl sailing) are never going to get it right when it comes to the sabbath or obedience to God. However, I still think we can stand in awe of what God has created when we see what man can acheive.



Absolutely! God's common grace falls upon unbelievers and believers. I think this would be one of those areas. Obviously unbelievers have as many talents as we do, the difference is they can't honor or glorify the Lord with those talents like we can.


----------



## Tim (Apr 3, 2010)

I am glad that this thread is now up. I was the one in the other thread who started this whole thing, but had to take a wee break to cool off. 

The point I want to make here is that sometimes we need to engage in some 'nitpicking' in order to discover the categories that God would have us apply based on Scripture. For example, we first need to be able to discern sin vs. not sin, waste vs. not waste. It's not 'nitpicking' with a view to condemn, but rather with a view to discover things about human activities and endeavors.

I think Mr. Bottomly, as moderator has done well to direct us back to the original post. 

I would like to pick up on a question Mr. Thornquist posed in his original post:



AThornquist said:


> Also, where in Scripture is an earthly medal seen as valuable, or are the worthwhile treasures only in heaven?


 
It would seem to me that the dominion mandate must come in to this. Would it have been worthwhile for Adam to _excel_ at gardening? I think, yes. But the difficulty comes when an endeavor is not actually _work_. That is, when there is not actually a _production_ of anything. Gardening produces food, ocean exploration facilitates Gospel expansion. 

But it would seem to me that _pure_ recreation that doesn't have as its aim to take dominion over any area of life, or doesn't carry with it a purpose to revive one physically and mentally, would be in a different category. 

That is what I am trying to discover: categories for our human endeavors.


----------

