# Does Hebrews 1:5 prove the Sonship had a beginning? Today I have begotten you?



## Trinity Apologetics (Feb 9, 2015)

Hi brothers. Hebrews 1:5 is commonly used by Oneness and Socinian defenders against the eternal Son; attempting to prove the Father-Son relationship had a beginning. It says, " For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”? " (NASB)

I interpret the first quotation (Ps 2:7) applied to Jesus as metaphorical "begetting" referring to His coronation as king (cf. Ps 2:6): being officially recognized or declared as the Son of God in time (even though He was always the Son of God cf. v2, 8-12) similar (perhaps the same) to Him being declared Son of God because of His resurrection (Acts 13:33, Romans 1:4). The ESV Study Bible essentially agrees with this and Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary backs it up (it says, regarding "begotten" [gennaō]), "from the Hebrew, to constitute as son, to constitute as king, or as the representative or viceregent of God, Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5". I think Dr. Michael Brown also agrees but can you guys provide me with names of Calvinist scholars who agree with this interpretation? I assume it's the most common interpretation from Trinitarians anyway. Quotes from them would also be awesome 

Also a second quotation (2Sam 7:14) to applied to the Son in this verse. Can I have your opinions on that also? I "will be" and "shall be" is future tense in the Greek, correct? I have a Oneness friend who loves using this to try to prove the Son cannot be eternal. Is it possible that it refers to the humanity of the Messiah? Or is the author's point simply that there is a unique Father-Son relationship that the angels don't have?

Thanks guys!

p.s. Are the Mounce Greek scholars Calvinists? Do you like like them?


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## Alan D. Strange (Feb 9, 2015)

Ethan:

Psalm 2 is commonly taken, with respect to its Messianic elements, to refer to the enthronement of Jesus as King at the time of His Resurrection and the complex of events that follow (Ascension, Session, and outpuring of the Spirit). 

II Samuel 7:14 gets a good summary treatment, I think, in this quote from the ESV Study Bible: "Hebrews 1:5 applies the words *I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son* to Christ because, as Messiah, Jesus inherits David's role as representative of God's people (his "son," Ex. 4:22-23; cf. Ps. 89: 26-27)." As for tense, Tsumura says (of this section, II Samuel 7:12-16), "This is expressed in a predictive discourse with a series of waw-consecutive perfect wqtl forms interspersed with future yiqtol forms." In other words, the English future here rightly reflects the Hebrew verb. I note that you mention the Greek (I am not sure why), so I checked the LXX and it too is future (the Vulgate also is future perfect).

Peace,
Alan


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## Bill The Baptist (Feb 9, 2015)

In addition to the excellent words of Dr. Strange above, I would simply add that the author's purpose in this section of chapter one is to establish the superiority of Christ to angels. Because angels were considered to be the highest of God's created order, if Christ is superior than he can only be God. This purpose is more clearly established later in chapter one when the author quotes further from the Psalms;

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


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## Peairtach (Feb 9, 2015)

At the Resurrection/Ascension/Session, Christ in his human nature moves from a state of humiliation to one of glorification and exaltation. All power in heaven and on earth is given to Him. This great change in the state of Christ's human nature is associated with His "being begotten" or "declared" to be the Son of God. 



> And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)





> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:3-4)





> And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:45)





> I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. (Psalm 89:20-27





> And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:1-7)


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## Trinity Apologetics (Feb 13, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Ethan:
> 
> Psalm 2 is commonly taken, with respect to its Messianic elements, to refer to the enthronement of Jesus as King at the time of His Resurrection and the complex of events that follow (Ascension, Session, and outpuring of the Spirit).
> 
> ...



Thank you Alan! So it's possible to refer to the second half of Hebrews 1:5 as a reference to the human Messiah? I mentioned Greek because I was referring to Hebrews 1:5's quotation/usage of 2Sam 7:14 rather than 2Sam 7:14 itself.


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