# Can we pray for God's Wrath?



## RamistThomist (Sep 21, 2004)

Without wanting to sound sadistic, this question popped into my mind. A lot of times we pray for God to reveal himself via his attributes to us (i.e., show us Thy love, Show us THy mercy, etc.). We would all agree that those are good and proper things to pray for. Can we pray for God to manifest himself via his wrath on an unbelieving culture (particular situation, local, universal)? 

I struggled over praying this last night; I actually stumbled in my prayer on this point. BUt I began to think, this is a way in which God expresses himself, and if God-deniers (unbelievers, liberal Christians--in the extreme since of the word, etc.) so manifestly deserve it and continue in their blasphemies, would it not be a valid prayer? FUrthermore, would it not also be a merciful prayer as well? I mean, if they are to be punished for their sins in a cumulative since, wouuld they be punished more if they lived out their days than if their lives would be cut short?

I don't want to sound sadistic, and when I am not in a hurry I will clarify a few points. If I may restate my question:

If God is infinitely perfect in all his attributes (and we pray for the manifestation of some of t hose attributes);

His wrath is an expression of his glory (one of his attributes)

Therefore, should we pray that he manifest his [i:2bf4969ffb]wrath [/i:2bf4969ffb]on a judgment-desreving culture?

Thanks,


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 21, 2004)

Last time I did that September 11 happened uzzled: - be careful what you wish for.

It is an interesting issue though. When first seeing the thread I would have said 'no you shouldnt pray for wrath' but then I was thinking of how Jesus told his disciples to shake the dust off their sandals if a town did not accept them.

Each case should be judged separately... You never know if God will give them the gift of believing and overflow them with grace in the last few weeks of their life. We simply should not judge someone like that in a way. Then again...  

I can only say now that I do not think it is a sin - just unwise at times.


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## py3ak (Sep 21, 2004)

Jacob,

The Psalmist often prays for God's judgment to fall on his enemies (e.g., Psalm 5:10). To balance that, of course, I doubt that judgment was the content Christ indicated when He told us to pray for those who despitefully use us and persecute us. However, while we should never pray vindictively, I do believe we should pray for judgment (Psalm 7:6-11).
With regard to false religions, for instance, I believe there are three things we should pray:
1. That people would be saved out of them
2. That the mouths of those who spread the system would be stopped
3. That God would destroy the system
I think that one reason the church is so beaten down by many of its enemies is that we do not pray against them. 
In the thread on evangelical conversions to Rome someone mentioned a figure of 150,000 conversions. I was surprised by that large number. But how many of us are praying against Rome (or Mecca, or Salt Lake City) with any kind of consistency?


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## RamistThomist (Sep 21, 2004)

Oh yes, I do take your warnings, Fraser. I am dealing with a Hebrews 6 case with a school-mate. I would never wish people pain and misery for pain and misery's sake. On the other hand, I do pray that God is glorified in all his acts of Providence. On one hand, I most heartily wish for this individual's conversion (he is a militant liberal Christian; you know, Christ died on the cross to save people from lower-class social structures). He on the other hand, despises everything I believe in. BTW, Ex Nihilo (she is a member on this board) and I talked with him this evening (think    ). Actually, he came up to me and picked a theological fight. So, I would wish for his conversion; but at the same time I would wish for his blaspheming to cease. I do intend to speak the gospel to him, and if he is converted, it will be utter proof of the Sovereign power of God. Gospeling to him is difficult as:

He denies sin

Denies the biblical God (and Christ for that matter)

Is being trained by faculty-members who are openly hostile to the Reformed Faith (ie, "You cannot believe in predestination and the Bible at the same time." I took that to be a self-refuting statement and did not respond).

It is matters such as these that overwhelm me and I, in desperation, call upon God to manifest his power in my life, and all around me. I do seek conversions brethren, but also and more importantly, the honor of my God.

Hosea 5:10 comes to mind, [i:9bebeb1982]The princes of Judah [/i:9bebeb1982](read: liberal theology) [i:9bebeb1982]have become like those who move the landmark [/i:9bebeb1982](denied God's self-revelation); [i:9bebeb1982]upon them I will pour out my wrath like water [/i:9bebeb1982](the question that I now raise). " ESV

Please help me work this out. I do not seek the destruction of my fellow man ([i:9bebeb1982]why would you die? Turn and live!)[/i:9bebeb1982] But I would not have the Name of God blasphemed.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks Ruben,

That was extremely helpful. I thnk you hit the nail on the head. I didn't see your post when I was typing.


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## py3ak (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm glad you found it helpful. It involved something of a paradigm shift for me recently, when I was reading through the Psalms and watching for the mention of enemies. It was surprising to me how few Psalms lacked the adversarial element.
"Let the saints be joyful in glory:
let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
and a twoedged sword in their hand;
To execute vengeance upon the heathen,
and punishments upon the people;
To bind their kings with chains,
and their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute upon them the judgment written:
This honour have all his saints.
Praise ye the Lord."
(Psalm 149:5-9, AV)


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## Scott (Sep 22, 2004)

Psalm 109 is almost entirely asking for wrath. Personally, I am not quite sure how to pray or sing them. We can use it as a model and portray the enemies as our interior sin or the Devil and his demons. Of course, it can be applied as Christ praying about Judas. I don't think that was the intended meaning of the human author, though (understanding that the sensus plenior would include those meanings).


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## RamistThomist (Sep 22, 2004)

THanks Scott,

Mentioning the Psalms as "wrath-prayers" did help. I do not know if any of you have the recent collection of essays dedicated to J M Boice, [i:993eeba4a0]Give Praise to God,[/i:993eeba4a0] designed on reforming worship in the church. In one chapter the author, Terry Johnson I believe, speaks of introducing Psalm-singing to churches that normally do not sing anything outside the evangelical ditties (This IS NOT THE EP DEBATE AT THE MOMENT!). He mentioned that after 9-11 the Christian radio did not have any lyrics to match the mood of the people; you know, the songs that sing of how fluffy God is and how....; Johnson then introduced on the Psalms to his church. It started:
"God of Vengeance, God of Wrath,
O Jehovah, Rise Up!" (The exact words escape me at the moment). Yet how many happy-clappy churches would sing that?

Thanks, all of you


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## py3ak (Sep 22, 2004)

Personally, I would enjoy singing this:

"Estranged the ungodly are,
Even from the very womb;
They, speaking falsehood, stray as soon
As to the world they come.
"Unto a serpent's poison like
Their poison doth appear;
Yea, they are like the adder deaf,
That closely stops her ear;
"That so she may not hear the voice
Of one that charm her would,
No, not though he most cunning were,
And charm most wisely could
"Their teeth, O God, within their mouth
Break thou in pieces small;
The great teeth break thou out, O Lord,
Of these young lions all
"Let them like waters melt away,
Which downward still do flow:
In pieces cut his arrows all,
When he shall bend his bow.
"Like to a snail that melts away,
Let each of them be gone:
Like woman's birth untimely, that
Hath never seen the sun.
"He shall take them away before
Your pots the thorns can find,
Both living and in fury great,
As with a stormy wind.
"The righteous when he vengeance sees
Shall be most joyful then;
The righteous one shall wash his feet
In blood of wicked men
"So men shall say The righteous man
Reward shall never miss:
And verily upon the earth
A God to judge there is."

(Vv. 3-11 of Psalm 58, as found in The Psalter in Metre, Revised Edition).


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## Ex Nihilo (Nov 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Finn McCool_
> Oh yes, I do take your warnings, Fraser. I am dealing with a Hebrews 6 case with a school-mate. I would never wish people pain and misery for pain and misery's sake. On the other hand, I do pray that God is glorified in all his acts of Providence. On one hand, I most heartily wish for this individual's conversion (he is a militant liberal Christian; you know, Christ died on the cross to save people from lower-class social structures). He on the other hand, despises everything I believe in. BTW, Ex Nihilo (she is a member on this board) and I talked with him this evening (think    ).



I, too, struggle with my attitude toward this person... When I first started reading your thread, Jacob, he was the first person I thought of... To tell the truth, I am sadistic, and my own sinful nature would love to see the wrath of God poured out on him for all the wrong reasons . Of course, when I pray for his conversion, I realize that my motivations are not the best. I don't really want him to be converted as much because I genuinely care about the state of his soul (though I should) but because I think he would be at least a bit less annoying. 

(Am I stopping to remember that I deserve God's wrath, too, and I have no right to complain if he extends his mercy to others as well as myself? What is it that I really want to see vindicated... God's truth for his glory or my own correctness to show that I was right?)

At least we're learning something from our interactions with him... (Just don't ask me to explain precisely what.)

[Edited on 12-11-2004 by Ex Nihilo]


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## cupotea (Nov 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Finn McCool_
> Can we pray for God to manifest himself via his wrath on an unbelieving culture (particular situation, local, universal)?



What do you want to happen? 

[Edited on 13-11-2004 by Cottonball]


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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Cottonball_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Finn McCool_
> ...



Let God be God! That he would rend the heavens and come down. That his NAME may be vindicated!


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