# Something Tells Me They Don't Understand the Holiness of God



## Romans922 (Sep 24, 2009)

Does anyone here think they understand God's Holiness?

REVELATION SONG - Kari Jobe - posted by Kari Jobe (karijobemusic) - tangle.com SONG - Kari Jobe


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## Romans922 (Sep 24, 2009)

Good point Josh. Me too.


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## Christusregnat (Sep 24, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I'm still working on that whole understanding of God's holiness myself.



This is an excellent point. By the same token, someone can disregard God's holiness, or someone can strive to understand and apply it. I believe Rev. Barnes may have been taking the former in his cross hairs.

Cheers,


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## Augusta (Sep 24, 2009)

Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting. 

This concert style worship is the centerpiece of their religion. Teaching is short and sweet while the worship can last hours. Most people have been to concerts and experienced the hypnotic effects of them. That is the drug that keeps them coming back, that along with the relieving of their conscience that they are safe from hell because they worshiped with such feeling.


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## LeeD (Sep 24, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.
> 
> This concert style worship is the centerpiece of their religion. Teaching is short and sweet while the worship can last hours. Most people have been to concerts and experienced the hypnotic effects of them. That is the drug that keeps them coming back, that along with the relieving of their conscience that they are safe from hell because they worshiped with such feeling.


That is very well put and I say that from experience in that kind of "church atmosphere" in the past as well.


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## AThornquist (Sep 24, 2009)

I really don't feel comfortable when people play music I'm not familiar with  Those people seemed way too happy and the raising of their hands shows they obviously don't know how to worship. If they really understood the holiness of God they would sing a Psalm or fall on their faces weeping or something. I mean, _I_ wouldn't fall to my face weeping since it shows my theological prowess to remain stoic, but still. Their worship was far too different from mine to be proper in any sense.


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## MMasztal (Sep 24, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.
> 
> This concert style worship is the centerpiece of their religion. Teaching is short and sweet while the worship can last hours. Most people have been to concerts and experienced the hypnotic effects of them. That is the drug that keeps them coming back, that along with the relieving of their conscience that they are safe from hell because they worshiped with such feeling.



Thank you!!! This deserves a "post of the year" award. You are so, so, correct in your assessment. The "Revelation Song" gets sung at our schools' chapel service ad nauseum. Some of the other CCM "tunes" I've heard are actually heretical. Another teacher, who is a PCA elder, and I actually had to talk with the music teacher about the content of some of her song selections.

This "concert-worship" style both angers and saddens me.


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## Megan Mozart (Sep 24, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Their worship was far too different from mine to be proper in any sense.



Will you help me understand why this is so?

...I'm not a fan of this stuff, I am just want to understand why you think that is so.


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## BobVigneault (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow Traci, that's one of the most accurate and fair descriptions of experience seeker worship I've ever read. Well done and thanks for sharing.


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## JonathanHunt (Sep 24, 2009)

Megan Mozart said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > Their worship was far too different from mine to be proper in any sense.
> ...



Megan... he's not being serious. He's being marvellously amusing. Bravo Sir! Bravo!


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## Megan Mozart (Sep 24, 2009)

JonathanHunt said:


> Megan Mozart said:
> 
> 
> > AThornquist said:
> ...



Whew!

I need to take Facetiousness 101.


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## AThornquist (Sep 24, 2009)

I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:

Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." *I don't know them.* I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.

There is nothing that shows me that those in the audience don't understand the holiness of God because they raised their hands, approved of the guitars, or sang an uninspired song. I love "Revelation Song," have it on my iPod, and worship God by singing it to Him at times. While I'm not planning on going to a pretty charismatic concert like that, I have worshiped at concerts by Casting Crowns and other groups. Yes, there was a lot noise. And people. And hands. And emotions. But it was sincere worship and God was honored by it. 

Of course there are many people who fit squarely in Traci's charitable assessment; just because someone goes to that type of concert doesn't mean they automatically fit in that category though.


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## dr_parsley (Sep 24, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.



Exactly. I read a book recently which suggested that if we really took God's holiness seriously we would, instead of issuing worshipers with a bible and church notices, we would issue them with crash helmets and strap them into their seats...


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## MMasztal (Sep 24, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:
> 
> Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." *I don't know them.* I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your post, Andrew. You are correct in that we don't know their hearts, etc., but it doesn't necessarily mean we are making a hasty generalization either. Much of our knowledge is based on our experiences. As children and young adults who attended church with our parents, our experiences will give us the impression that all churches are similar to the one we went to and if it happened to be a Word and sacrament based church, then thank God for his provision. But once you start to look around at other churches, you will see the radical differences in teaching and worship styles. 

I've seen too much of this, e.g., "heartfelt worship without much knowledge" at the Christian school where I teach. In my observations here many of the kids that have been going to school here for years and receiving daily religious instruction cannot give a cogent presentation of the Gospel nevermind elucidate other important Biblical doctines. These students are generally the ones that go to the "happy-clappy", 45 minutes of praise songs/choruses in front of a praise band followed by a banal sermon on how we need to be like Jesus. The school also needs to take some of the blame for this. Some of the other teachers' Bible classes were little more than Bible stories with some added narcissistic "journal keeping". This distressed me to no end. Another teacher who is a PCA elder and I are changing the teaching away from the WWJD?/Jesus is my best friend to the what DID Jesus do on the cross. 

No parent complaints......yet.


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## Augusta (Sep 24, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.
> 
> There is nothing that shows me that those in the audience don't understand the holiness of God because they raised their hands, approved of the guitars, or sang an uninspired song. I love "Revelation Song," have it on my iPod, and worship God by singing it to Him at times. While I'm not planning on going to a pretty charismatic concert like that, I have worshiped at concerts by Casting Crowns and other groups. Yes, there was a lot noise. And people. And hands. And emotions. But it was sincere worship and God was honored by it.
> 
> Of course there are many people who fit squarely in Traci's charitable assessment; just because someone goes to that type of concert doesn't mean they automatically fit in that category though.



You are correct Andrew that there are Christians in that audience. I was one of them. But, they are there despite the worship style and despite the lack of teaching and knowledge and, please God, they will be pulled OUT of that miry clay and set on a rock as I was.

The style of worship in my experience is entirely fleshly and not sober and with fear and trembling. Those people have no fear of God before their eyes. God is a teddy bear that wants the best for them always. He is a gentleman that woos them, not a Father who chastens those he loves. 

Everyone does what is right in their own eyes. It is a very loosey goosey environment.


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## jason d (Sep 25, 2009)

So singing "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain!" to this type of music makes it "Fleshly" or "unholy"? Where does the Bible say that?


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## Scott1 (Sep 25, 2009)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [1] ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. JER 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. PSA 31:23 O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. PSA 18:3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. PSA 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. JOS 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. MAR 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
> 
> [2] DEU 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. MAT 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. ACT 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. MAT 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (see also DEU 15:-19) EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.



-----Added 9/25/2009 at 07:35:54 EST-----

I'm grateful for what I've learned about the biblical "regulative principle of worship" here on Puritan Board.

Without stopping to consider God's claim on our corporate worship, it would be hard to give anything like this a second thought.

I listened to this without video, only the words and music. The words are good (e.g. "You are everything, I will adore You; Filled with wonder, awestruck wonder, at the mention of your Name").

The musicians were good as well, well coordinated and very mood producing (which is something good music can do).

Now, add the video and put the whole of this in context and consider corporate worship, as commanded by a Holy God who is rather explicit about what He wants His creatures to do.

Here are some possible problems with this from a biblical worship standpoint.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with every single one as a violation of Scripture, but trying to look at this from the standpoint of the original post:

1) Total effect is much centered on the entertainment effect of the singer (sound effects, lighting effects, provocative dress of the singer)

2) Centered on the person singing, not on God

3) Centered on the personal feelings of experience of each individual audience member rather than centered on God, what He wants (regulative principle)

4) A woman leading "corporate worship" 

5) Words are not Scripture

6) The long drawn out crescendo at the end , flamboyant, only reinforces that this is centered on the singer, her band, the personal experience of each person in her audience


By the way, I do much better with this listening to it without the theatrics of video. Yes, that way, it did actually cause me to meditate, albeit momentarily, on God's goodness.


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## OPC'n (Sep 25, 2009)

I have to agree with Josh I don't understand God's holiness well either. Just bc I go to a church which worships RPW doesn't mean that's where my heart is all the time. I have to admit that my mind wonders at times which shows my lack of awareness of God's holiness.


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## jason d (Sep 25, 2009)

So is there a place in the Bible where we are told what style of music we have to use?

If you are regulative principle do you use the instruments mentioned in the Bible? Do you not use amplification (we aren't told to use that)? Use lights? Use electricity?


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## Scott1 (Sep 25, 2009)

jason d said:


> So is there a place in the Bible where we are told what style of music we have to use?
> 
> If you are regulative principle do you use the instruments mentioned in the Bible? Do you not use amplification (we aren't told to use that)? Use lights? Use electricity?



There has been passionate discussion and threads on some of these topics recently which can be retrieved using the search function.

Suffice it to say, here, a woman leading repetitive chorus not in Scripture, with sound and light special effects and with people each individually doing their own thing is not really corporate worship. Not as Scripture defines it.

It may be a lot of things. It may be good quality music. It may be emotionally thrilling and uplifting. It may be enjoyable to experience. It may even "minister." 

But it's not the corporate worship of our Triune God who ordains both the ends of His Worship and the means by which His creatures are to worship Him.


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## Augusta (Sep 25, 2009)

jason d said:


> So is there a place in the Bible where we are told what style of music we have to use?
> 
> If you are regulative principle do you use the instruments mentioned in the Bible? Do you not use amplification (we aren't told to use that)? Use lights? Use electricity?



Psalm 96:9 commands us to worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth. That would seem to limit the music to something more serious and sober. The assemblies were repeatedly called solemn assemblies. If we would all use the psalter as our guide, which I believe is it's purpose, we would be guided by the lyrics in the psalm as to whether the tune was solemn, joyful, restive, etc. We would be guarded by the Word from doing anything untoward in worship. The Psalms are all God centered and not me centered which is as it should be.


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## Blue Tick (Sep 25, 2009)

Leviticus 10:1


> Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, which he had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from before the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord has said, ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace.




Hebrews 12:18-29


> 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.



Hebrews 10:26-31


> 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Sep 25, 2009)

These threads on music are the ones that always cause much emotion. The methodist church I use to attend use to worship much like the video displayed above. I can see the danger in worship like this. The lights, music, and songs are played because its what the youth likes,totally disregarding lyrics and God-centered worship. I also see the problem with a female leading worship. I dont really know. I do know I enjoy these threads.


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## Cary Loughman (Sep 26, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:
> 
> Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." *I don't know them.* I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.
> 
> ...


Amen! I can't thank you officially yet, so let me do it here. I loved the satire in the original post.


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## ewenlin (Sep 26, 2009)

If I may dare ask, Rev Barnes, what is the purpose of this thread?

It seems like we're just taking one video off the internet about our brothers and sisters in Christ who yes we all know are lacking in many areas, and just hammering away with no specific reason.

Traci, your assessment of much of modern emergent/charismanic churches are spot on, but what has that got to do with this video? In a thread about handling Pentecostalism/emotionalism or evangelical ecumenism sure it makes sense. 

But what are we doing here? I know Kari Jobe but isn't it stretching it a little far when we're criticizing so much about them/their movement that isn't apparent within the video at all? 

I am Reformed yes and I lean towards EP even, yet I can't bring myself to so readily judge based on a 7 min music video.

-----Added 9/26/2009 at 08:51:23 EST-----



AThornquist said:


> I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:
> 
> Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." *I don't know them.* I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.
> 
> ...



I posted then read Andrew's post. I would have just  on this.


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## Scott1 (Sep 26, 2009)

These are great observations and touch on many important things.

Since you have done such a good job bringing them up, they invite further thought.

A lot of people are in the situation of being in broadly evangelical churches, and the Arminian influence, dispensationalism and lack of confession all that entails.



AThornquist said:


> I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:
> 
> Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." *I don't know them.* I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I _do_ know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like _I_ know it.
> 
> ...



One of the things that has been helpful is something that reformed theology teaches as a doctrine of scripture.

Perseverance of the saints. We can look for good fruit, not perfection, but good fruit in the lives of the people leading and engaging in these activities.

I have known many who lead and followed in this kind of exuberance and presentation and have shown great perseverance in their faith. Inasmuch as I can know, they are Christians and prove it out with their lives.

I've also known many, many others who follow this with much profession and emotion for a time, and then fall away or fall into serious error. 

It's helpful to engage people who once gave much appearance of what they would call worship, much profession of their faith, and then lose interest.

And if we encounter people who assume, as many do, that worship is about them, how they feel, what they want, what their imaginations would have God to be... we want to engage that too, and trust God for the results.


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## Mark Hettler (Sep 26, 2009)

I come from a Pentecostal/charismatic background. There is a lot of stuff I can't accept going on there, which is why I'm now in a PCA church instead of a charismatic church. But in my opinion some posts on this thread are painting with too broad a brush, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, whatever metaphor one chooses to use. I've known people for whom the music is their religion, and I've known people who love God with all their hearts and souls and minds and strength and want nothing else but to pour that love out to Him fervently. I've seen cranked-up hype, and I've seen God moving, and those who have seen both can tell the difference. And maybe the video in the OP is the former, but that doesn't mean there is none of the latter. I've been there.

And there are people there who don't come out and join a Reformed church, not because they're immature, not because they don't want sound doctrine, but because they want God Himself, not just talk about Him, and want opportunities to express their love for Him in worship, and feel that in Reformed churches all you get are a lot of half-hearted people going through the motions and listening to sermons that reaffirm that they are already believing the right things and approaching everything the right way. And maybe that's painting with too broad a brush as well. But my point is that maybe both sides - and since I'm not talking to them right now but to us, maybe WE - need to stop pointing fingers and take the logs out of our own eyes, and ask why people who love God so deeply and sincerely don't feel at home with us, instead of smugly satisfying ourselves that the problem must be them.


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## LeeJUk (Sep 26, 2009)

OK well it is a really big problem with this kind of concert that stirs the flesh up into a kind of frenzy. Especially at the end...with the flashing lights and the drum beat going faster and faster. Strange fire anyone?

However, at the same time, we cannot blanket statement that all people who worship God with contemporary songs or music know nothing of his holiness or arent worshipping. I mean I'm in the church of Scotland, and I can tell you, some of the greatest fellowship, worship times and evangelical churches in our denomination, are the ones who have the modern worship and often times the churches with organs etc... are the most dead.

It's the same with say the Mars hill movement and "The Village Church" and other big churches like John Pipers'. I mean they are sound in doctrine and in gospel, love God, hold to his holiness and yet they do contemp. worship.

So I'm just making that distinction, I think it's important we don't go off the deep end and say well all contemporary stuff is bad. A lot of it is I admit but a lot of it is also not.

Keep in mind worldliness still existed when piano's were the most used instrument of the day.


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## Peairtach (Sep 26, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Does anyone here think they understand God's Holiness?
> 
> REVELATION SONG - Kari Jobe - posted by Kari Jobe (karijobemusic) - tangle.com SONG - Kari Jobe



If any of them are saved, they understand _something_ of God's holiness.

They don't understand what biblical worship is, or if they do, they've rejected it for entertainment with a smidgen of "worship"

I find this kind of worship depressing. It's difficult to hear the voice of God in it, because it's drowned out by Man.

Did God ever ask for this, anyway?

It's not simple, its not spiritual, its not Scriptural.

It's an unbiblical depressing emotinal rolloer-coaster.


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## ewenlin (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm going to risk  and say this...




She's got a great voice.


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## Peairtach (Sep 26, 2009)

ewenlin said:


> I'm going to risk  and say this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. She's quite bonnie too.

Whether this is biblical minimalist worship is another Q.

Having said that, I'm not being self-righteous, because I'm willing to say that she and her friends, some of whom may be genuine brithers and sisters, may be further on in their sanctification and use of their gifts than I am. And that wouldn't be saying much.


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## ewenlin (Sep 26, 2009)

A bonny lass? Haha that could only come from a Scot!


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## Gloria (Sep 26, 2009)

Mark Hettler said:


> I come from a Pentecostal/charismatic background. There is a lot of stuff I can't accept going on there, which is why I'm now in a PCA church instead of a charismatic church. But in my opinion some posts on this thread are painting with too broad a brush, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, whatever metaphor one chooses to use. I've known people for whom the music is their religion, and I've known people who love God with all their hearts and souls and minds and strength and want nothing else but to pour that love out to Him fervently. I've seen cranked-up hype, and I've seen God moving, and those who have seen both can tell the difference. And maybe the video in the OP is the former, but that doesn't mean there is none of the latter. I've been there.
> 
> And there are people there who don't come out and join a Reformed church, not because they're immature, not because they don't want sound doctrine, but because they want God Himself, not just talk about Him, and want opportunities to express their love for Him in worship, *and feel that in Reformed churches all you get are a lot of half-hearted people going through the motions and listening to sermons that reaffirm that they are already believing the right things and approaching everything the right way.* And _maybe_ that's painting with too broad a brush as well. But my point is that maybe both sides - and since I'm not talking to them right now but to us, maybe WE - need to stop pointing fingers and take the logs out of our own eyes, and ask _*why people who love God so deeply and sincerely don't feel at home with us, instead of smugly satisfying ourselves that the problem must be them*_.


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## Peairtach (Sep 26, 2009)

Gloria said:


> Mark Hettler said:
> 
> 
> > I come from a Pentecostal/charismatic background. There is a lot of stuff I can't accept going on there, which is why I'm now in a PCA church instead of a charismatic church. But in my opinion some posts on this thread are painting with too broad a brush, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, whatever metaphor one chooses to use. I've known people for whom the music is their religion, and I've known people who love God with all their hearts and souls and minds and strength and want nothing else but to pour that love out to Him fervently. I've seen cranked-up hype, and I've seen God moving, and those who have seen both can tell the difference. And maybe the video in the OP is the former, but that doesn't mean there is none of the latter. I've been there.
> ...



Sometimes people are just looking for the style of worship which _they like_ regardless of what God's Word says. Something that entertains them and keeps their interest. they find unaccompanied psalms _boring_ and they don't want to be bored during worship. They want to be entertained.

Re Reformed churches, I'm sure that just because they have the worship model biblical or close to biblical doesn't mean that the hearts of many of those worshipping can't be far from the Lord. 

But you get this in all sorts of churches. It's difficult/impossible to legislate for that, except to keep an eye on whose on the communion roll and church discipline and preach good quality sermons, but following unbiblical worship practices won't get you any closer to hearts bing in the right place or take anyone closer to God.

Where people start hankering after hymns and worship songs rather than psalms, and instrumental music rather than the simplicity of the human voice, it's no sign of spirituality.

It's probably a sign that they're bored with the _loathsome bread _of the Psalms.

Many or all of those in the video may understand the holiness of God better than me, which wouldn't be saying much, but they don't understand or they reject biblical worship for what they've got, which isn't much.


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## Scott1 (Sep 26, 2009)

It might also help in looking at this if we try to distinguish this carefully.

A great many of us have had exposure to what is termed "contemporary worship." 

While the focus might easily shift to tastes and preferences over music style, it really is much deeper than that.

*The issue is how does God command His people, gathered together, to corporately worship Him.* This is a specific discipline of the Christian life, an ordinary part of the life of a Christian. It is distinguished from doing other things that are intended to please God. In a sense, everything we do is an act of worship. Even what we enjoy doing for pleasure, our recreations and entertainments. But that is not corporate worship.

Here's what it's not about:

1) Whether people who profess Christ and who are doing things that are not biblical and calling them worship are Christians or not. 

Christians can and do believe wrong things, and do wrong things out of ignorance, out of disobedience. God forgives sin, but yet being ignorant or rebelling when God has revealed His will by His Word is not acceptable for the Christian.

2) Whether those things are in, and of themselves, inherently sinful.

Going to a loud performance with sound effects and visual effects designed to stimulate the mood and the senses is not inherently sinful. It might be sinful in some ways it is used but it is not inherently evil. God made music, gave us the talent, and allows us to enjoy it.

But the real question is... Is this the corporate worship of God's people.

We can easily see from Scripture that biblical teaching, singing psalms, praying and taking the sacraments are things God instructed His people to do and we see it by example in Scripture.

But let's go more broadly- do we see mud wrestling being taught or exampled when God's people came together in worship? Did we see interpretive dance? Do we see pantomime presentations? Excepting God's physical manifestation in things like His _shekinah _Glory in the Old Testament, did we see man designing his own sound effects, lighting effects, and provocative effects that would call attention to a person?

There might be nothing wrong in attending these things- for pleasure and entertainment (outside the sabbath day), but is it how our holy God has commanded he be worshiped corporately when they come together as His people?


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## Augusta (Sep 26, 2009)

Mark H. you caught yourself and said truly that you also painted Reformed worship with a broad brush also.

I said what I said with full knowledge of that type of worship. I was for 20+ years in that audience waving my hands and swaying with the music. I know from all those years how the music was arranged specifically to lead us into an emotional state where we would be like a drunk person who suddenly starts repenting of all his wrongs. I think they truly thought that this was bringing us closer to God. They do truly, as I said before, have a zeal that is without knowledge. 

I struggled for years with anger at my old church, once I became reformed. I was mad that they didn't teach me the Scriptures that we all carried into church but read very little of. I felt betrayed. I now know that I was lost and that they are lost also. I have compassion now for them in their ignorance of the true gospel.

I don't think that I was unique in that I was so ignorant of what Scripture truly teaches about Christ. They really are totally clueless unless they have some aquaintance with someone from a Reformed or Presbyterian church, which I did not have. The only thing I knew and was taught was that there were other churches out there that were dead churches that didn't have the Holy Spirit. They were not Spirit filled and we were.


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## Mark Hettler (Sep 26, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Mark H. you caught yourself and said truly that you also painted Reformed worship with a broad brush also.



I was not expressing my view of Reformed worship and painting with a broad brush, I was articulating how many charismatics view Reformed worship and acknowledging that they paint with a broad brush. And my point is that, while both sides may be painting each other with broad brushes, maybe it's time for our side to look at ourselves instead of assuming that whenever people are uncomfortable with our side the problem must be them.

I am not arguing for or against any style of worship. I am not arguing for or against continuationism. I am saying that I know godly people in that camp, and their reasons for not coming out of that camp and joining ours are not what has been attributed to them here.


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## D. Paul (Sep 26, 2009)

As has been mentioned, there are numerous threads and long, drawn-out discussions regarding worship and music here on the PB. What I need to know is this:
I understand how worship ought to be conducted in the corporate worship service in the church proper. But where is there place for music like this? Or, where is there place for Christian musicians in general? What if Steve Camp, who is Reformed, plays with a band on stage and people get a little rowdy? What is inherently wrong with what took place in this video? 

I'm not trying to prove _any _ point. I'm just looking for the distinction.


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## Peairtach (Sep 26, 2009)

Mark Hettler said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > Mark H. you caught yourself and said truly that you also painted Reformed worship with a broad brush also.
> ...



Fine. But as long as certain believers follow the worship _they like_ rather than ask the question, "Does God have any say in _how_ we worship?" they aren't going to see the advantages/benefits of Reformed worship, because, by definition, Reformed worship must be inferior, legalistic and stifling to worship with attractive soloists, all sorts of musical instruments, waving hands, oodles of "positive" emotions, freedom to write and perform our own songs, flashing lights; put God's boring hymnbook in a box with a sign saying do not open until the Parousia.

Worship according to the Bible doesn't consist in the additional and flashy, whether that's Romish or Charismatic/CCM.

Biblical New Covenant formal worship liturgy is scriptural, simple and spiritual.

We may not like it that way, but as believers who take the Bible seriously, we should find out why we should like it that way.

If you want a Christian band concert or want to put Handel on the stereo, fine. 

But don't bring it into our worship services or people's liberty to worship God as they ought, and in the way that God has designed as best for them, will be compromised.


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## Scott1 (Sep 26, 2009)

Great questions.

Having only come to understand this from a biblical standpoint within the last year, much on Puritan Board, I can't give answer this with all the specifics, but will try to respond to your good questions biblically:



D. Paul said:


> As has been mentioned, there are numerous threads and long, drawn-out discussions regarding worship and music here on the PB. What I need to know is this:
> I understand how worship ought to be conducted in the corporate worship service in the church proper.
> And Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 21 gives us a concise summary of the doctrine of Scripture on this
> 
> ...


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## Mark Hettler (Sep 26, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> If you want a Christian band concert or want to put Handel on the stereo, fine.
> 
> But don't bring it into our worship services or people's liberty to worship God as they ought, and in the way that God has designed as best for them, will be compromised.



Well, if you're including Handel in the same category with what we saw in the video in the OP, then at least you're being consistent, and I can respect your position even while disagreeing.


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## jason d (Sep 28, 2009)

Augusta said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > So is there a place in the Bible where we are told what style of music we have to use?
> ...



So do you, using the Psalter as "as your guide", also clap, dance, and do shouts of joy as the Psalms command?

*"Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!"*
- Psalm 47

*"Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!"*
- Psalm 149

*"Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!"*
- Psalm 150



Or do you highlight these verses with an Arminian highlighter


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## D. Paul (Sep 28, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Or, where is there place for Christian musicians in general?
> A vocation in life. *In corporate worship*, respecting the regulative principle, the authority of the church, etc.
> In life, as a calling to serve both believer and nonbeliever for the honor and glory of God.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Scott for the post. Unless I misunderstood something, though, it seems we may advocate for the Christian musician in the Church
 under the RPW, but any other area where the "people of God" gather, it is inappropriate?


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## Scott1 (Sep 28, 2009)

-----Added 9/28/2009 at 08:38:05 EST-----



D. Paul said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Or, where is there place for Christian musicians in general?
> ...





> *D. Paul*
> Thanks, Scott for the post. Unless I misunderstood something, though, it seems we may advocate for the Christian musician in the Church
> under the RPW, but any other area where the "people of God" gather, it is inappropriate? [



It begins by looking at what God has revealed is His will for us when we worship corporately as His people. What we call public (corporate) worship needs to be what He has commanded.

Other things we do as part of the Christian life, such as recreation, entertainment, vocation- things that consume much of our lives, are not the same as "corporate worship." They may in a sense be called serving, obeying even worshipping God, but are not the specific activity of corporate worship.

For example, the activities at the Temple (regarding sacrifices, offering, priests there) described around Exodus 29 are very specific. God commanded the way He wanted to be worshiped very specifically, and judged Israel severely for disobeying (e.g. offering "strange fire").

So, by analogy, if God is looking down at His creatures doing what they are calling "corporate worship" today and sees (to use an extreme example) a mud wrestle, and pantomime presentation with an obscure message, people jumping up and down to make a wave pattern with their cell phone lights, and talking about NASCAR at worship activities is this what God has commanded to be His corporate worship?

Now, mud wrestle, pantomime, coordinating cell phone lights in a wave pattern, and NASCAR discussions are all fine in their place in the life of the Christian, but when God's people gather together to worship corporately, they are not. The regulative principle would tend to look at this as a form of idolatry (Second Commandment violation) not only for acts themselves, but the imaginations and conversations they engender.

So, if I'm understanding your question, it is more what we advocate musicians do or do not do as part of corporate worship that matters from the standpoint of the regulative principle. 

My understanding is a basic part of the regulative principle is that the talents of the individual musician, his person, is not to be the focus of corporate worship. God is. Being sensitive to that is part of it.

There is a whole other realm of musicians using their talents as vocation, for entertainment, to express creativity, to make a name for themselves, etc. But that's not the same as corporate worship.


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## nicnap (Sep 28, 2009)

So, here is a question that no one has asked: is this supposed to be a worship service or is it a Christian concert? There is no context to the video. For all I know, this could have been a Saturday afternoon gathering of saints, for the purpose of singing. So, is this a worship service? I know that the discussion has been as if this were a worship service, but the context of the video doesn't give indication.


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## Peairtach (Sep 28, 2009)

jason d said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



All these things and musical instruments and incense were elements of Old Covenant worship, but we are in the New Covenant now, where an antitypical simplicity and spirituality in worship pertains.

-----Added 9/28/2009 at 09:38:00 EST-----



> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> > Scott1 said:
> ...



All denominations make distinctions between what is acceptable in formal worship and what is acceptable in informal worship.


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## jason d (Sep 28, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > Augusta said:
> ...



So then we don't use the Psalms as a guide (even though what I quoted says that we do).... very confused now



Or do yall just pick and choose from the Psalms which ones to follow in your worship service?


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## Christopher88 (Sep 28, 2009)

The song has very powerful lyrics, and does play a roll in worship as we see in the bible angels and normal men of God sang songs of worship to the Lord. However music is emotional and can lead someone down the path of the sinners prayer but two hours latter that person has a false seance of what salvation is. He may or may not be saved, only God knows who He drew to Him at that time. 

Music has a role but it should not be our focus, the bible needs to be our focus. 

Now I know folks will come on here and say we should only sing hymns. Sorry hymns are just the same thing, emotionally sung. That and singing the old rugged cross I don't agree with. Remember the blood, but we do not sing about the death because Jesus rose; Jesus is no longer on that cross. Amen. 

This is not about rather what form is music is biblical it should be about where does musical worship come into play? Should it be in our services? Some could argue that it should not. I'm one of those guys who loves music, but would rather spend my hour in deep biblical study then waste away 30 mins of hearing the same song with a different tune over and over again. 

Jesus and His word needs to be the focus. 

I truly believe as to the setting these folks were in, maybe 45% of them were in worship where as the other 55% were in entertainment or emotional worship. I do not know. It is not for man to judge the hearts of worshipers, that is Gods' job.


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## MMasztal (Sep 28, 2009)

jason d said:


> So then we don't use the Psalms as a guide (even though what I quoted says that we do).... very confused now
> 
> 
> 
> Or do yall just pick and choose from the Psalms which ones to follow in your worship service?



I think you are missing the point of this thread.


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## David Heesen (Sep 28, 2009)

I read somewhere in Chuck Swindoll's writings that perhaps country music would be the music of heaven. That from a famous radio preacher who arrived at a PromiseKeepers meeting wearing a black leather jacket and riding on a Harley.


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## Peairtach (Sep 28, 2009)

jason d said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



No. You don't use the Psalms simplistically as a guide how to worship: otherwise e.g. we should bind the sacrifice to horns of the altar with cords. (Psalm 118: 27). Old Covenant worship must be stripped of its temporary and typological elements, which get in the way of scriptural, simple (unadorned) and spiritual New Covenant worship.

Any of the Psalms can be used in the worship service. God has given us his own hymnbook; let's not neglect it, and thus mock God.

The Psalms - being God's Word for singing - are deeper than man-made hymns or man-made spiritual songs. The more the Psalms are studied, and explained from the pulpit, the more the congregation will get out of singing them. 

If the Psalms are not studied and explained, particularly the typology, the more people will despise the simple bread of Heaven as loathsome, and want inferior man-made materials of praise instead with which to tickle their jaded ears.

They will also reject the aural simplicity of unaccompanied Psalm singing for the aural complexity of instrumental music. In the church the Lord wants the praise of His people themselves, not for it to be mediated through _dead_ instruments 

_If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. (I Cor. 13:1, ESV) _

_If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? (I Cor. 14:11, ESV)_


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## jason d (Sep 28, 2009)

MMasztal said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > So then we don't use the Psalms as a guide (even though what I quoted says that we do).... very confused now
> ...



I am trying to figure out why most are arguing from the Psalms "we need to be reverent and fearful" but saying of the Psalms dealing with "shouts of joy", "clapping", and "dancing" are put in the category of "Old Covenant Worship".

-----Added 9/28/2009 at 05:34:06 EST-----



Richard Tallach said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > Richard Tallach said:
> ...



I hope I don't sound sarcastic, but i honestly don't see how yall are making the division that "reverence" & "fear" is still for today but not "clapping", "dancing" ect...

How do you distinguish which ones we still use as literal and which ones we just now use as a "typology"?

(I understand Hebrews would be use to talk about "we should bind the sacrifice to horns of the altar with cords. (Psalm 118: 27)" but what do you do with dancing and shouting for joy and the use of instruments?  )


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## D. Paul (Sep 28, 2009)

nicnap said:


> So, here is a question that no one has asked: is this supposed to be a worship service or is it a Christian concert? There is no context to the video. For all I know, this could have been a Saturday afternoon gathering of saints, for the purpose of singing. So, is this a worship service? I know that the discussion has been as if this were a worship service, but the context of the video doesn't give indication.



Bingo. Round about the bush went I.


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## Nathan Riese (Sep 28, 2009)

jason d said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



Jason, you have good questions that deserve answers. I can't give them to you, because I have the same exact questions as you do. Is there someone here that can explain why the RPW, since RPW's focus is on what God prescribes and allows for worship, cannot include the other Psalms which speak about dancing, shouting, clapping, etc, since those verses seem to promote, actually prescribe, those actions? Jason is right, one cannot use a verse from Psalms to promote his version of RPW without explaining why he has neglected the other Psalms which go contrary to his RPW.


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## Scott1 (Sep 29, 2009)

> *Nathan Riese *
> 
> Jason, you have good questions that deserve answers. I can't give them to you, because I have the same exact questions as you do. Is there someone here that can explain why the RPW, since RPW's focus is on what God prescribes and allows for worship, cannot include the other Psalms which speak about dancing, shouting, clapping, etc, since those verses seem to promote, actually prescribe, those actions? Jason is right, one cannot use a verse from Psalms to promote his version of RPW without explaining why he has neglected the other Psalms which go contrary to his RPW.



These are good questions, can someone address this?





I would note what the Westminster Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to say is worship of our God:



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> (emphasis added)
> 
> Chapter XXI
> ...



Basically, if you look at the Westminster Standards as a whole (including the Catechisms and the Directory for Worship), corporate worship of God's people is:

1) Reading Scripture
2) Preaching the Word
3) Prayer
4) Sacraments
5) Church discipline
6) singing of psalms, hymns, spirituals songs (some say exclusive psalms)
7) Receiving offerings

and occasionally also:

8) religious oaths and vows
9) thanksgivings on special occasion
10) fasting 



> GI Williamson _Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes_ p. 166
> 
> ...According to one view, only what God has commanded is legitimate. According to the other, some elements of worship may be added without divine commandment to those elements that are commanded by God, and these together constitute what is considered legitimate. The Confession adheres to the former view and therefore limits true worship to that which can be proved from Scripture to be the will of God....


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## Peairtach (Sep 29, 2009)

jason d said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



Good questions about how we should worship in this New covenant era. 

Incense, clapping, shouting, dancing, musical instruments, special garments, etc, all such distractions from God and His Word, weren't used in the more spiritual, unadorned,simple non-typical worship of the New Covenant assemblies. Check out the New Covenant scriptures to identify such elements being used, if you can.

The RPW isn't usually defended directly from the Psalms, since they were written during the Old Covenant and contain elements of Old Covenant worship, and we wan't to worship God in a New Covenant way. 

Do our Lord and His Apostles command or even imply the use of musical instruments, special clothing, incense, dance, drama, clapping, shouting, etc, etc, if we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth in the New Covenant era? We may _want_ to have these things, but do we have a biblical basis for them? Or are you saying that they are adiaphora?

If you say they are adiaphora, at what stage do such adiaphora - if at all - obscure our vision of God, and hence _our_ idea of what is worship (rather than the New Testament's idea) affects our view of ourselves as God's Image and helps to shape us into the wrong sort of people/Christian believers?


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## carlgobelman (Sep 29, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Mark H. you caught yourself and said truly that you also painted Reformed worship with a broad brush also.
> 
> I said what I said with full knowledge of that type of worship. I was for 20+ years in that audience waving my hands and swaying with the music. I know from all those years how the music was arranged specifically to lead us into an emotional state where we would be like a drunk person who suddenly starts repenting of all his wrongs. I think they truly thought that this was bringing us closer to God. They do truly, as I said before, have a zeal that is without knowledge.
> 
> ...



I hear what you're saying, but your experience with contemporary worship is anecdotal at best. I was too once part of a large mega-church that had pretty much everything in that video. The difference between your experience and mine is that the worship lasted between 25-30 minutes and then there was a Biblical sermon for 45-60 minutes; and it was not namby-pamby, seeker-sensitive stuff either.

My point is we cannot judge which type of church atmosphere is represented from one video of one song. Too many people on this thread are making hasty conclusions based on a single video. As someone earlier mentioned, we don't know the hearts of the people present; we don't know what was preached after the music, etc.

Speaking for myself (and only myself), I am relatively new to this whole Reformed thing (about a year). I will say that, in general, your criticisms are accurate, and that I find "emotional" worship to be "zeal without knowledge" more often than not. I also take issue with the whole presentation. If this was during a church service (I couldn't confirm this based on the video), it does seem grossly inappropriate because it does place the worship band as the focal point of the worship "experience;" and it all seems designed to create an experience. However, I didn't find the content of the song to be offensive at all. That being said, I am growing in my appreciation of the older hymns and recognizing not only the deep theology taught in them, but the reverence with which they're sung.


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## cih1355 (Sep 29, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> > *Nathan Riese *
> >
> > Jason, you have good questions that deserve answers. I can't give them to you, because I have the same exact questions as you do. Is there someone here that can explain why the RPW, since RPW's focus is on what God prescribes and allows for worship, cannot include the other Psalms which speak about dancing, shouting, clapping, etc, since those verses seem to promote, actually prescribe, those actions? Jason is right, one cannot use a verse from Psalms to promote his version of RPW without explaining why he has neglected the other Psalms which go contrary to his RPW.
> 
> ...



Does the reading of Scripture have to be a responsive reading?


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## Peairtach (Sep 29, 2009)

*Quote from Carl*


> However, I didn't find the content of the song to be offensive at all. That being said, I am growing in my appreciation of the older hymns and recognizing not only the deep theology taught in them, but the reverence with which they're sung.



This is it. And greater appreciation of the Psalms among God's people would also be a good thing. 

As the Psalms are God's Hymnbook given to us they should not be snuffed at and set aside, but should form the core of our worship. How does God the Holy Spirit - Who has written the Psalms by inspiration, and given them to His people - look upon worship that excludes them or relegates them to the sidelines? Doesn't that show pride on the Church's part?


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## jason d (Sep 30, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> *Quote from Carl*
> 
> 
> > However, I didn't find the content of the song to be offensive at all. That being said, I am growing in my appreciation of the older hymns and recognizing not only the deep theology taught in them, but the reverence with which they're sung.
> ...



What about songs from other parts of the Scripture? Like this one based on much of Revelation (which the Holy Spirit also inspired).

Also, anyone able to answer my question from my post above about dividing the Psalms that mention "fear" & "trembling" (still for today) but apparently not "clapping", "shouting", or "dancing"?


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## MMasztal (Sep 30, 2009)

jason d said:


> What about songs from other parts of the Scripture? Like this one based on much of Revelation (which the Holy Spirit also inspired).
> 
> Also, anyone able to answer my question from my post above about dividing the Psalms that mention "fear" & "trembling" (still for today) but apparently not "clapping", "shouting", or "dancing"?


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## jason d (Sep 30, 2009)

MMasztal said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > What about songs from other parts of the Scripture? Like this one based on much of Revelation (which the Holy Spirit also inspired).
> ...



Well there must be a reason why alot of people here are judging the people in this video, i believe, wrongly. If I am wrong then someone please give me an answer from Scripture. Sorry if you consider that


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## SheWhoWaits (Sep 30, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.
> 
> This concert style worship is the centerpiece of their religion. Teaching is short and sweet while the worship can last hours. Most people have been to concerts and experienced the hypnotic effects of them. That is the drug that keeps them coming back, that along with the relieving of their conscience that they are safe from hell because they worshiped with such feeling.


Not always. I have known some Pentecostals who have searched the scriptures and whose religion is as knowledgeable as it is touchy-feely. There's nothing wrong with touchy-feely per se. Have you ever read Hosea? God seems pretty touchy-feely there. Religion without knowledge is bad, but so is religion without feeling. We're to love God with our heart as well as our mind.


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## MMasztal (Sep 30, 2009)

jason d said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



If you re-read your own posts, you'll see that nearly all of them are discussing "forms" of worship which really wasn't the point of the initial post. 

Now you are discussing our "judging the people" which was the premise of this thread. 

It might be the case that some, like Augusta, who have lived through and thankfully emerged from this experience or others like myself, who are a bit further along in years and have known and currently educate these CCM teens, may have a different perspective than you do.


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## Gloria (Sep 30, 2009)

jason d said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



I think you're more on target then some are giving you credit for, sir. *awaits an answer from scripture AKA "the final authority on all matters of faith"*


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## Joseph Scibbe (Sep 30, 2009)

What I want to know is where someone gets off saying these people dont understabd Gods holiness. How does enjoying the worship of God mean we dont understand His holliness? From what I gather on y-tube this is a concert and not a worship service. Either ways, the Psalms tell us to make a joyful (KJV includes "loud") noise to the Lord. We as well read that we worship God in singing a "new song" as well.


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## Blue Tick (Sep 30, 2009)

Unashamed 116 said:


> What I want to know is where someone gets off saying these people dont understabd Gods holiness. How does enjoying the worship of God mean we dont understand His holliness? From what I gather on y-tube this is a concert and not a worship service. Either ways, the Psalms tell us to make a joyful (KJV includes "loud") noise to the Lord. We as well read that we worship God in singing a "new song" as well.



The reaction of an internal awareness of God's holiness is manifested in an external devotion and action. So, if one believes God is holy and should be worshipped in a manner that is consistent with reverencing a holy God, the external devotion would reflect holy reverence to a Holy Creator.

Hebrews 12:28



> Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,



I would say the video is definitely not worship. A concert if anything but I would be careful to call this worship.


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## Scott1 (Sep 30, 2009)

> Does the reading of Scripture have to be a responsive reading?



The reading of Scripture, as that is referenced in several places in the Westminster Standards involves, reading, singing, rightly hearing, preaching, proclaiming, exhorting, teaching and other aspects.


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## Peairtach (Sep 30, 2009)

jason d said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > *Quote from Carl*
> ...



Do we have warrant to sing songs from other parts of Scripture?

Yes. But let's keep the Psalms as central, as it's God's book of songs given to us. Let's not despise the Lord's composing skills. 

The fact that there are extra-Psalmodic songs in Scripture gives a warrant for the composition of devotional poetry and song, but let's not think, or show that we think by our actions, that our compositions are worthy to be ranked alongside the Psalms. 

Do you find clapping, shouting, dance or drama in New Covenant worship? It goes without saying that we should reverence/fear God, and tremble before His Word.

Elements such as drama, dance, soloists, glitter balls, special-clothing, hand-waving, choirs, musical instruments, man-made hymns, etc, etc, have drowned out the voice of God in modern Protestant worship, as surely as incense, smells and bells, crossing one's-self ("spectacles, t*******s, wallet and watch"), robes, instruments, candles, wafers, etc, etc, did in pre-Reformation times and still do in Roman and Eastern Orthodox worship.

One becomes what one worships. Is God being worshipped or is the self being worshipped by being entertained?

Now I know that people's hearts are a different matter to their outward style of worship, but the worship style of CCM seems to be pandering to our fleshly desire to be constantly entertained even when we're supposed to be worshipping God, as opposed to the model of the WCF.

Even if Christian believers are following the RPW, they must be frequently reminded that just because the outward form is in line with Scripture, the individual's heart may not be in line with Scripture and that they should seek confession, cleansing and communion with God before, or at least during worship.

The outward aspect of New Covenant liturgy isn't some kind of free-for-all with no biblical parameters.


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## Augusta (Sep 30, 2009)

SheWhoWaits said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.
> ...



Marian, I was speaking in general terms of the vast majority. There are exceptions in all groups, Pentecostals not withstanding. Touchy-feely (zeal) without knowledge is very dangerous and I think we are more loving when we warn people stuck in these types of churches, than when we apologize for them and leave them in their ignorance.

In my 25+ years I visited church after church of this type. There are clones of them all over the world. I was in darkness the whole time I was in these churches. We stayed at my old church until the Holy Spirit literally drove us out. We were listening to the service in the coffee shop toward the end because we couldn't stomach going into the sanctuary. We finally said "what are we doing" and I got advice here on the PB about Presbyterian churches because I was so ignorant I didn't even know which denominations were reformed. (part of why we stayed so long, we didn't know where to go) I only learned the term reformed on RC's radio show and the internet. I found our current church on the internet.

Since coming to the PB I have heard similar versions of my story over and over from other people. They were driven OUT of these churches and saved OUT of these churches. All my friends besides the new ones from my new church are in these kind of churches and I grieve for them. So I know many many Pentecostals. I love many Pentecostals but I will tell the truth when it comes to their doctrine and worship.


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## Peairtach (Sep 30, 2009)

Of course, this style of worship has invaded many evangelical churches, _that wouldn't pretend to be penty or charismatic_, that aren't grounded in the RPW.


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## Augusta (Sep 30, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> Of course, this style of worship has invaded many evangelical churches, _that wouldn't pretend to be penty or charismatic_, that aren't grounded in the RPW.



This is true, and it is because this style of worship comes from charismatic churches, particularly Aimee Semple McPherson, that it should give people even more pause. She is the founder of mega churches and concert style worship.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimee_May]Aimee Semple McPherson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]


[video=youtube;eUZ_-5e6G7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUZ_-5e6G7Y&feature=fvw[/video]

This is a White Horse Inn video but at the very beginning is a clip of Aimee doing church.
[video=youtube;Wn0vVzEbF1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn0vVzEbF1s&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=0547559DD2ED8C7E[/video]


[video=youtube;ftqumRF9Sh4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftqumRF9Sh4[/video]


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## Scott1 (Sep 30, 2009)

We have some clear violations of the regulative principle here, a woman usurping authoritative ecclesiastical teaching and leadership.

It seems also a clear cult of personality, all kinds of problems with that from the standpoint of the regulative principle.

Also, the teaching that revelation equal or above that of Scripture ordinarily comes outside of Scripture.

All that before we get to Arminian influence, dispensationalism and no binding confession of faith.


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## Clay7926 (Sep 30, 2009)

*Let's get back on topic, folks...*

Since I am not the Holy Spirit, I'm not qualified to judge or evaluate who does or does not understands God's holiness. Not that I'm saying anyone here has done that in this thread, but I digress...

I came from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background, and have been in many church services (not concerts) just like this one. However, while there were some folks there just for the emotional high, there were others there who were students of Scripture and who truly wanted to have a better understanding of God's holiness. 

Now, if we're considering the song on its own merits, here are the lyrics:



> Worthy is the,
> Lamb who was slain
> Holy, Holy, is He
> Sing a new song, to Him who sits on
> ...



While it may not be a psalm, the song is still scriptural (My main issue with the song itself is that it's overplayed on one of the main Christian radio stations here in town, but that's not the subject of THIS thread). There are some touchy-feely lines there, but I think it's balanced out by scripture. 

I'm a bit torn on this topic; part of it strikes me as a Romans 14 issue; just because some believers like this kind of music is no reason to judge their spirituality (I'm talking true believers here). 

OTOH, some folks just don't know any better, and truly need to be taught from scripture what biblical worship looks like. Yes, we have some RPW violations in the video But I'd rather err on the side of caution that folks just aren't being taught from Scripture what worship consists of and looks like rather than saying someone doesn't understand God's holiness.


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## MMasztal (Sep 30, 2009)

Augusta said:


> SheWhoWaits said:
> 
> 
> > Augusta said:
> ...



Traci, you nailed it just as Augusta did. I teach high school science and a new theology/apologetics class to 11th and 12th grade students at a K-12 Christian School. After spending a year talking to the students about theological matters I discovered they lacked knowledge of the basic tenets of the faith--- even students who have been attending the school for years were hard pressed to name more than 5 of the Comandments and could not provide a cogent definition of Christianity or what the Gospel is. I then proposed a new class for the students and thanks to God's good providence, it was approved.

But these student all know the bands, attend the Christian concerts and wear the WWJD Jesus junk. Another characteristic of these students is that they attend charismatic/pentacostal or theologically vapid churches. Asking them for a definition of justification, the atonement, etc and you get 

For sure, a lot of the blame falls on the school, the parents and the churches.

I mentioned the Apostles Creed a couple weeks ago. No one..yes, no one knew what I was talking about. I recited it and could see the kids had never heard this. But I have them singing the same praise chorus for 5 minutes straight. The few solidly grounded Christian students we do have do not think too highly of the CCM scene and the whole emotionalism thing that permeates that environment.


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## Scott1 (Oct 1, 2009)

There have been some threads on the regulative principle of worship that have had broad participation and with substantive biblical reasoning that may be helpful in understanding this topic generally:



http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/modern-worship-14206/




http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/rock-music-worship-why-not-12838/



http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/sunday-best-casual-31254/



http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/praise-worship-18202/



http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/dance-worship-45407/


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## carlgobelman (Oct 1, 2009)

I think Clay7926 has some real wisdom here. Could much of this discussion be considered a matter of Christian liberty?


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## carlgobelman (Oct 1, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I am not speaking to the video, as most folks will know automatically what I think about it, and its out-of-bounds from the Scriptures, but I do want to respond to the notion of it being Christian Liberty.
> 
> Proper Worship is never a matter of Christian Liberty, whether public, family, or private. God has a prescription (and these are on the basis of the 1st through 4th Commandments), and while we may disagree on application at some point, there is a universiality to "right" worship. Christian Liberty pertains to "things indifferent," not to specific practices which are prescribed, commanded, and deduced from "good and necessary consequence."



Based on this logic, it seems that even those Reformed folks who use instruments in worship and sing non-inspired hymns are only a matter of degree removed from the so-called CCM worship styles of modern evangelicalism.

Not trying to open a , but if one can make the RPW argument against CCM style worship, one can also make the RPW argument against hymnody or *gasp* using instruments in worship.


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## cih1355 (Oct 1, 2009)

Do you believe that the manner in which the people in the video express their emotions is irreverent?


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## carlgobelman (Oct 1, 2009)

cih1355 said:


> Do you believe that the manner in which the people in the video express their emotions is irreverent?



Not sure to whom this was directed, but I'll take a stab at answering it...

Without knowing the context of the video (i.e., whether or not it is taking place in an actual corporate worship service) it's hard to answer that definitively. For the sake of argument, let's suppose it is a worship service. Since your question specifically asks about expressing emotion, I would say "no." How is it irreverent to express emotion? The only thing that might be called into question is whether or not they're violating 1 Corinthians 14 regarding orderly worship. The only problem with emotion is that it needs to be guided by knowledge. Other than that, heck, I get emotional at times singing hymns to the point that tears are streaming down my face. Is that irreverent?

Now if you're referring to the CCM style of worship, I can see the concerns that many have expressed in this thread. There is a danger of this type of worship leading to sensationalism and raw emotionalism completely devoid of truth. Furthermore, there is the danger of exalting the band rather than God. I get all of that. Again, I reiterate that I have been part of large churches that employ CCM style of worship, yet are rock solid in their Biblical teaching.

What I don't get is the scent of judgmentalism that is wafting throughout this post because it doesn't subscribe to RPW, etc., or as the post title suggests, that they somehow don't understand God's holiness. Many of the people on PB (myself included) have voted with our feet by leaving such churches and joining Reformed churches that subscribe to some form of RPW. I just don't see why we need to waste so much time and energy critiquing what other churches do. Why don't we spend that time critiquing our own practices and making sure they're Biblical. We are very close to flirting with self-righteousness in this thread ("They don't subscribe to RPW, like WE do").



OK, I'm off my soapbox.


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## Peairtach (Oct 1, 2009)

> What I don't get is the scent of judgmentalism that is wafting throughout this post because it doesn't subscribe to RPW, etc., or as the post title suggests, that they somehow don't understand God's holiness. Many of the people on PB (myself included) have voted with our feet by leaving such churches and joining Reformed churches that subscribe to some form of RPW. I just don't see why we need to waste so much time and energy critiquing what other churches do. Why don't we spend that time critiquing our own practices and making sure they're Biblical. We are very close to flirting with self-righteousness in this thread ("They don't subscribe to RPW, like WE do").



Well I think the original post by Andrew was off-base. You can't infallibly tell if an individual knows God and His holiness or not by how they worship. Some unbelievers attend RPW services, and some believers attend CCM services.

Also just because the externals of worship are in line with God's Word, does not mean that even believers need to be reminded to get their hearts in line with God's Word before worship.

I think a better Q than the OP would be, "Is this style of worship compatible with God's Word, and does it promote a sense of God's holiness or are we experiencing the Disneyfication and kitschification of the holy, in order to make the holy fit better into our slick media and celebrity obsessed view of life?" 

"How does making worship more entertaining, more pleasing to the eye and ear, and entertaining to the mind, more pop-py and rocky, downgrade the experience of what is, and should be, worship?"

Is this the worship God wants? Is this worship spiritually healthy - or as spiritually healthy for the participants - as an RPW service?


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## carlgobelman (Oct 1, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> > What I don't get is the scent of judgmentalism that is wafting throughout this post because it doesn't subscribe to RPW, etc., or as the post title suggests, that they somehow don't understand God's holiness. Many of the people on PB (myself included) have voted with our feet by leaving such churches and joining Reformed churches that subscribe to some form of RPW. I just don't see why we need to waste so much time and energy critiquing what other churches do. Why don't we spend that time critiquing our own practices and making sure they're Biblical. We are very close to flirting with self-righteousness in this thread ("They don't subscribe to RPW, like WE do").
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Richard,

I think you hit the nail on the head. The original question is the wrong question. I think your rephrasing is more open for honest discussion.


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## Brian Withnell (Oct 1, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Does anyone here think they understand God's Holiness?
> 
> REVELATION SONG - Kari Jobe - posted by Kari Jobe (karijobemusic) - tangle.com SONG - Kari Jobe



I'm not sure anything in the song showed any more lack of understanding than anyone else. The words of the song seemed mostly taken from the message of scripture. It would not be what I would think is appropriate for a worship service, but I hope this was a concert performance. I would think they have a lot better concept of God's holiness than Led Zeppelin. The music was somewhat repetitive, but then so are some of the Psalms (the refrain of "His love endures forever" is repetitive in 136, and 118 ... I'm not saying their music is in any way on par with holy writ, but that I'm finding it difficult to critique more than any other performer's music).

[I'm showing up late to this "party" seems like a lot of posts, and I'm responding only to the opening post at this point, so please bear with me if I missed something later.]

-----Added 10/1/2009 at 10:10:55 EST-----



Richard Tallach said:


> Gloria said:
> 
> 
> > Mark Hettler said:
> ...



There are plenty of reformed Christians that think EP is just plain wrong. That the scriptures command the use of more than just Psalms (other songs being prescribed) and there are plenty of threads that already cover that, so I'm not going there.

Even EP could still have that style of music (Psalm 136 is certainly repetitive enough to be put into the style). But the content is not the problem is that is an actual worship service. If it is a worship service, not just a concert, then my problem would be that the worship of the people, not those up front, would be an afterthought rather than central to the service if that was the entire content. If nobody other than those "on stage" were singing, it would take nothing away from the "performance" of the music. That would be my problem with a worship service that was exclusively ordered after the video.

If on the other hand, the reading of scripture (responsively), reciting of the historic and orthodox creeds, the offering of prayer (written and recited by the congregation, and hopefully the Lord's prayer), the giving of tithes and offerings, the preaching of the Word with reverent receiving of it, the celebration of the sacraments ... I would find it very difficult to condemn such a service if it had a single 7 minute "special music" selection like the one in the video.

One question still remains in my mind though ... was this a tape of a part of a worship service, or of a concert? I cannot tell, but I would think the later not the former.


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## Brian Withnell (Oct 1, 2009)

MMasztal said:


> jason d said:
> 
> 
> > What about songs from other parts of the Scripture? Like this one based on much of Revelation (which the Holy Spirit also inspired).
> ...



I think you missed his point. What he asked for was proof that clapping, shouting, or dancing were part of the ceremonial worship any more than fear and trembling. Stating that they are is not proof. Saying 10 times is not proof. Saying that the NT worship is to be simple is not proof (and saying that the NT worship is to be simple needs proof to even use that in the answer).

So what I hear is a refrain for the request for the proof, and the simple statement that it is so, but without any reasoning from scripture that what is stated is so. You might be able to put it down, but I see no command that we are to worship God simply in the NT. One might conclude that the worship of God is to follow (in the simple vs. extravagant) the model in OT worship. But don't just repeat what you have said and think that repetition explains what you mean. It doesn't.

The point is to expand upon the basis for what you are saying. So far, all you have said is that clapping, shouting and dancing are not simple ... even if one grants that (which is not obvious) then you still have to establish that simple worship (not just "in Spirit and in truth") and not extravagant worship is commanded in the NT. The OT certainly had extravagant worship and was commanded to be rather extravagant. Therefore the proof that it is to be simple is required as it is a departure from what the scriptural commands of worship in the OT were. While the ceremonial law is abrogated, that does not necessarily abrogate extravagance in worship as it does not follow that the forms are necessarily the style.

Prove your thesis.


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## Montanablue (Oct 1, 2009)

> Also just because the externals of worship are in line with God's Word, does not mean that even believers need to be reminded to get their hearts in line with God's Word before worship.
> 
> I think a better Q than the OP would be, "Is this style of worship compatible with God's Word, and does it promote a sense of God's holiness or are we experiencing the Disneyfication and kitschification of the holy, in order to make the holy fit better into our slick media and celebrity obsessed view of life?"
> 
> ...



I've been both intrigued and troubled by this post and couldn't put my finger on why, but I think you go it. I'm not sure the question in the OP is constructive. The questions you raise are absolutely worthy of our attention and discussion though. There's lots of great stuff to think about and discuss here, but we need to make sure we're approaching it with the right questions.


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## Peairtach (Oct 2, 2009)

> One question still remains in my mind though ... was this a tape of a part of a worship service, or of a concert? I cannot tell, but I would think the later not the former.



Yes. It would be helpful if Andrew, the original poster, could tell us. 

As someone who believes in exclusive unaccompanied psalmody as the appropriate liturgy of the gathered New Covenant church, I am not closed to a broader approach in other settings, because I can see signs of this being prmitted by Scripture.

When the RPW is abandoned, though, the dyke is burst and the line in the sand is crossed, and the waters of human ingenuity, entertainment, "creativity", lead to a free-for-all in will-worship. Everything including the worship of God has to be given the Hollywood treatment. And if you can't find a church that follows the RPW you just have to put up with this, and the effect that that has upon one's soul.

-----Added 10/2/2009 at 08:35:50 EST-----



Brian Withnell said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > jason d said:
> ...



Yes. The RPW is partly an argument from silence. Can we find incense, holy days (apart from the Christian Sabbath/Lord's Day), fancy garb, dancing, drama, clapping, shouting, men and women waving arms during singing, sack-cloth and ashes, etc, etc, in New Covenant worship? No. Therefore it is wise to exclude them lest extraneous elements be allowed to proliferate, as is happening in many churches, who don't follow/have abandoned the RPW. Then the real new Covenant worship that God is intereted in is swamped-out.

Where this kind of extravagant/extraneous behaviour is excluded and there is general uniformity and sobriety, people are taught more clearly that spirituality is something internal, and doesn't depend on how much you wave your hands during the singing, how many times you say, "Jesus", how much you disfigure your face during fasting, how loudly or well you blow your trumpet, how much you may be tempted to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, etc, etc, ....

I'm not saying this is happening in the hearts of all who attend this type of worship, but the temptation must be there, as it is when people declare how much they are giving to the Lord this week, as happens in some South African churches I've heard of. 

Everyone can join in the showmanship in this style of worship, not just the electric guitarists, drummers and trumpeters. Alot of it is/can be about putting on a good show. There is less scope for this in RPW churches, although it can't be excluded entirely and people need to be frequently reminded of Who the God they're coming before is, and of the state of their hearts before Him.

Strip away the externalism of OT worship, and you have NT worship, with its even greater emphasis on the heart. The childhoood church of the OT needed these things - clapping, etc. We don't see them in the New Testament worship. Why not? Things have moved on. It's a symptom of the charismatic movement and all things associated with it, including its preferred style of worship, that it goes back to babyhood, when the church should be putting away its childhood toys.


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## Gloria (Oct 5, 2009)

carlgobelman said:


> cih1355 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you believe that the manner in which the people in the video express their emotions is irreverent?
> ...



Double thanks.


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## Peairtach (Oct 5, 2009)

*Quote from Gloria's Post *


> What I don't get is the scent of judgmentalism that is wafting throughout this post because it doesn't subscribe to RPW, etc., or as the post title suggests, that they somehow don't understand God's holiness. Many of the people on PB (myself included) have voted with our feet by leaving such churches and joining Reformed churches that subscribe to some form of RPW. I just don't see why we need to waste so much time and energy critiquing what other churches do. Why don't we spend that time critiquing our own practices and making sure they're Biblical. We are very close to flirting with self-righteousness in this thread ("They don't subscribe to RPW, like WE do").



It is always going to sound judgemental when you critique other (Evangelical) churches/Christians on various things whether it's Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, Antinomianism, or their style of worship. But the RPW has sometimes to be explained and defended like any other doctrine.

I agree that there can be improvements in RPW worship. I've also said that I don't judge the people in the video's hearts or lives. Just because their outward worship is lacking, does not mean that they are far ahead of us in their hearts and lives.

It may be a concert rather than a formal worship service, which means that disco-style worship has not invaded the church(es) they attend. But if Reformed Christians are not allowed to criticise or critique disco-style worship and defend the RPW, then we must succumb, sooner or later to disco-style worship.

I just don't get the impression from the Bible that disco-style worship was what was going on/meant to go on, in the New Covenant churches.


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