# Reading Francis Turretin



## bookslover (Apr 9, 2018)

Well, a few days ago, I took a deep breath and launched out in Volume 1 of Turretin's 3-volume _Institutes of Elenctic Theology_. I've decided to read 10 pages per day. That might not sound like much but, at 10 pages per day, you can read a 2,000-page book (which is, basically, what Turretin is) in a little over 6 months (and I'm not in a hurry). I'm 140 pages in.

On the subjects he tackles, he's very thorough. He's also got a gift for the turn of phrase. On page 115, he says that "vowels are the souls of consonants" in his discussion of the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament.

An interesting read, so far.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 9, 2018)

It is an outstanding work. I am considering re-reading it once I finish Shedd's Dogmatics and Brakel's Christian's Reasonable Service.


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## DTK (Apr 9, 2018)

As you read, if you're anything like myself, you will find yourself praising God for the work of the editor, James T. Dennison, who "ran down" all those references making the sources, whom Turretin cites, easy for us to find. I suspect that our own Chris Coldwell can appreciate that!

At any rate, you have indulged in a very worthy activity!

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## Dachaser (Apr 10, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Well, a few days ago, I took a deep breath and launched out in Volume 1 of Turretin's 3-volume _Institutes of Elenctic Theology_. I've decided to read 10 pages per day. That might not sound like much but, at 10 pages per day, you can read a 2,000-page book (which is, basically, what Turretin is) in a little over 6 months (and I'm not in a hurry). I'm 140 pages in.
> 
> On the subjects he tackles, he's very thorough. He's also got a gift for the turn of phrase. On page 115, he says that "vowels are the souls of consonants" in his discussion of the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament.
> 
> An interesting read, so far.


Would he be considered to be a hard to read and understand author?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Would he be considered to be a hard to read and understand author?



The first 50 pages are dry since he is dealing with Prolegomena. The sections on God's decree and God's knowledge are kind of difficult, but they are difficult in any systematics text. Volumes 2 and 3 are relatively easier.

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## Dachaser (Apr 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The first 50 pages are dry since he is dealing with Prolegomena. The sections on God's decree and God's knowledge are kind of difficult, but they are difficult in any systematics text. Volumes 2 and 3 are relatively easier.


I was curious, as have heard so much about him, so would you see him as harder to understand than say Berkhof or Hodge?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I was curious, as have heard so much about him, so would you see him as harder to understand than say Berkhof or Hodge?



He is a more powerful thinker than either man, and he will make you go deeper. I think he is a much better writer than Berkhof. Hodge simply condensed Turretin.


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## Logan (Apr 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Hodge simply condensed Turretin.



I wouldn't say this is accurate. Turretin heavily influenced Hodge to be sure, but it's not "simply" condensed Turretin.

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## bookslover (Apr 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Would he be considered to be a hard to read and understand author?



That hasn't been my experience, so far. You do have to pay attention, though.


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

Logan said:


> I wouldn't say this is accurate. Turretin heavily influenced Hodge to be sure, but it's not "simply" condensed Turretin.


Wasn't Turretin the major influence on Hodge, as like His theology was the main primer that Hodge grow up on?


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## Dachaser (Apr 11, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He is a more powerful thinker than either man, and he will make you go deeper. I think he is a much better writer than Berkhof. Hodge simply condensed Turretin.


he would to me be probably hard to digest then, as had a hard time following all the way Hodge, but that was mainly due to the fact that I had read Calvin, Hodge, and Berhof through before even becoming one who held to reformed view on salvation, as was a Pentecostal at that time.


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## R. Andrew Compton (Apr 12, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Well, a few days ago, I took a deep breath and launched out in Volume 1 of Turretin's 3-volume _Institutes of Elenctic Theology_. I've decided to read 10 pages per day. That might not sound like much but, at 10 pages per day, you can read a 2,000-page book (which is, basically, what Turretin is) in a little over 6 months (and I'm not in a hurry). I'm 140 pages in.
> 
> On the subjects he tackles, he's very thorough. He's also got a gift for the turn of phrase. On page 115, he says that "vowels are the souls of consonants" in his discussion of the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament.
> 
> An interesting read, so far.



What an excellent goal! Turretin is superb!

If it interests you, my colleague at Mid-America Reformed Seminary, Mark Beach, wrote a sort of intro to reading Turretin in our journal in 2016. Here is the citation information: Beach, J Mark. "Reading Turretin: Some Observations on Francis Turretin's Institutes of Elenctic Theology." _Mid-America Journal Of Theology_ 27 (2016): 67-84.

If you need any help accessing this article, E-mail me and I can get you a PDF - [email protected]


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## bookslover (Apr 13, 2018)

R. Andrew Compton said:


> What an excellent goal! Turretin is superb!
> 
> If it interests you, my colleague at Mid-America Reformed Seminary, Mark Beach, wrote a sort of intro to reading Turretin in our journal in 2016. Here is the citation information: Beach, J Mark. "Reading Turretin: Some Observations on Francis Turretin's Institutes of Elenctic Theology." _Mid-America Journal Of Theology_ 27 (2016): 67-84.
> 
> If you need any help accessing this article, E-mail me and I can get you a PDF - [email protected]



Thanks for the info, R. I'll check it out.


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## bookslover (Apr 21, 2018)

Update: I'm up through page 270 of volume 1.

He's more philosophical than theological, so far, which can, frankly, make for tedious reading in spots. But, overall, he's interesting.

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## OPC'n (Apr 21, 2018)

I have his three volumes but haven’t read them.... I’m a bit intimidated by them

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## Cymro (Apr 22, 2018)

I love Turretin. The elenctic method simplifies the doctrine and comes from different angles and then is refuted. Dr M.L. Jones is similar in his preaching, and gives the negative (what it is not), and then the positive (what it is). I even prefer Turretin to Calvin. Don’t be intimidated Sarah, I left school at 15, and cope with him.

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## RamistThomist (Apr 22, 2018)

Here is my review of volume 1. Turretin is hard, to be sure, but he makes you a better thinker.
https://negatingthevoid.wordpress.com/2016/10/30/turretin-vol-1-review/

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## TheOldCourse (Apr 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Here is my review of volume 1. Turretin is hard, to be sure, but he makes you a better thinker.
> https://negatingthevoid.wordpress.com/2016/10/30/turretin-vol-1-review/



I could not agree with this more. Beyond the great benefit of simply drinking in the rich theology of Turretin's Institutes, reading it challenged me to be much more rigorous and careful in my reasoning and analysis. That's still a work in progress, of course!

Turretin is my favorite systematician and has remained so for many years now.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 22, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> I have his three volumes but haven’t read them.... I’m a bit intimidated by them



Read a few pages a day or even just a few pages on a Sabbath. You will be surprised at how much you will get through.

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## bookslover (May 8, 2018)

UPDATE: Well, I'm 430 pages in, about to start Topic Five on creation. After 119 pages on the decrees, particularly on predestination, I'd definitely ready for a new topic.

Turretin's style is really compact and concentrated, so you really have to pay attention.

10 pages per day. . .


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## Dachaser (May 8, 2018)

bookslover said:


> UPDATE: Well, I'm 430 pages in, about to start Topic Five on creation. After 119 pages on the decrees, particularly on predestination, I'd definitely ready for a new topic.
> 
> Turretin's style is really compact and concentrated, so you really have to pay attention.
> 
> 10 pages per day. . .


How much information need to know on what was happening back then that was being addressed? When I was reading Hodge, that was what was hard for me to follow, as much of his material was addressing concerns and theology of his current time, which I was not that much aware of in theology.


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## bookslover (May 8, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> How much information need to know on what was happening back then that was being addressed? When I was reading Hodge, that was what was hard for me to follow, as much of his material was addressing concerns and theology of his current time, which I was not that much aware of in theology.



Well, he's addressing the Socinians, Anabaptists, and Remonstrants of his time, of course. But his theological reasoning is good for our times, as well.


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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Well, he's addressing the Socinians, Anabaptists, and Remonstrants of his time, of course. But his theological reasoning is good for our times, as well.


I think that many would be lost on just reading what he stated concerning the first group that you mentioned.


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## bookslover (May 9, 2018)

In today's reading (Volume 1, pages 441-450), Turretin spends some time arguing that the creation (Genesis 1) took place in the autumn (pages 441-444).

Just sayin'.


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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

bookslover said:


> In today's reading (Volume 1, pages 441-450), Turretin spends some time arguing that the creation (Genesis 1) took place in the autumn (pages 441-444).
> 
> Just sayin'.


How many years ago?


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## bookslover (May 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> How many years ago?



I think he said 6,000 years, somewhere.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2018)

He also said they fell on the first day, and that the Garden of Eden is not hidden someplace on earth where Elijah and Enoch are waiting, pace Bellarmine.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He also said they fell on the first day, and that the Garden of Eden is not hidden someplace on earth where Elijah and Enoch are waiting, pace Bellarmine.


I thought that the Garden of Eden was located somewhere in Modern Iraq?


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## RamistThomist (May 10, 2018)

Bellarmine thought it was in a secret, hidden location. A lot of these guys were geocentrists and maybe flat-earthers, so it kind of fits.


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## JimmyH (May 11, 2018)

R.C. Sproul interviewed by Steve Nichols, on Open Book. Topic; Turretin's Institutes. 
https://openbookpodcast.com/r-c-sproul-and-turretins-institutes-of-elenctic-theology/


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## bookslover (Jun 9, 2018)

UPDATE: Well, I'm now 70 pages into Volume 2. He's discussing the Ten Commandments one by one.


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## brendanchatt (Jun 10, 2018)

R. Andrew Compton said:


> E-mail me and I can get you a PDF - [email protected]


How nice. I would edit this to say acompton at midamerica dot edu to avoid bots and spam.

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## bookslover (Jun 26, 2018)

Here is his take on why he thinks the unpardonable sin is unpardonable (he has no opinion, at least in this section, as to what the unpardonable sin is) - 

_As to order, the covenant of works precedes and the covenant of grace follows. From this to that, there is granted an appeal from the throne of justice to the throne of mercy. Hence, the violator of the covenant of nature has a remedy in the covenant of grace, but the violator of the covenant of grace has no further remedy or hope of pardon because there is no other covenant by which he can be reconciled to God. On this account, the sin against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable because it is committed against the covenant of grace._ (12.4.10 [Volume 2, Page 191])

I thought that was interesting.


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## Dachaser (Jun 26, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Here is his take on why he thinks the unpardonable sin is unpardonable (he has no opinion, at least in this section, as to what the unpardonable sin is) -
> 
> _As to order, the covenant of works precedes and the covenant of grace follows. From this to that, there is granted an appeal from the throne of justice to the throne of mercy. Hence, the violator of the covenant of nature has a remedy in the covenant of grace, but the violator of the covenant of grace has no further remedy or hope of pardon because there is no other covenant by which he can be reconciled to God. On this account, the sin against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable because it is committed against the covenant of grace._ (12.4.10 [Volume 2, Page 191])
> 
> I thought that was interesting.


Some would see the Unpardonable Sin as what happens when sinners continue to reject the work of the Holy Spirit in getting them to see and receive Jesus Christ, but it seems that Jesus applied that to a specific time and place, to the Pharisees who had them in their midst, and yet ascribed his miracles and deeds as being done for Satan and not for God.


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## bookslover (Jul 22, 2018)

Just finished the Fourteenth Topic in Volume 2, so I only have 224 pages to go in that volume. Under the Fourteenth Topic, he has a very interesting discussion as to whether Christ died for the elect only or for all men. Just that one question is so important for Turretin that he devotes 28 pages to it. (Elect only, of course.)


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## bookslover (Aug 18, 2018)

UPDATE: Finished Volume 2 a few days ago and am now 50 pages into Volume 3.

For Turretin's take on Romans 7, you should read Volume 2, pages 697-699. He takes the orthodox position, of course. But it's an interesting read.


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## bookslover (Sep 8, 2018)

UPDATE: Now have less than 400 pages to go in Volume 3.

He's now discussing clerical celibacy, a topic that's pretty hot right now what with all the bad news coming out of the Catholic Church these days.


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## Dachaser (Sep 8, 2018)

bookslover said:


> UPDATE: Finished Volume 2 a few days ago and am now 50 pages into Volume 3.
> 
> For Turretin's take on Romans 7, you should read Volume 2, pages 697-699. He takes the orthodox position, of course. But it's an interesting read.


What would be the Orthodox position then?


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## psycheives (Sep 8, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> I have his three volumes but haven’t read them.... I’m a bit intimidated by them



Sarah, jump in! You are SOOO missing out! I can't stress this enough. It's like a gold mine. Turretin really is not "too hard." Some topics are harder but many are easy. Don't start on Vol 1, Pg 1. People get scared because they start in at page 1 and can't make sense of the prolegomena and philosophy. I don't recommend that. Skip right to the sections that you want to learn about. If you want to understand the Sacraments/Baptism/Supper, then go there. If you want to understand our view of Scripture, go there.

For example, I'm trying to convince a brother that Roman Catholicism is false and their reading of history and biblical interpretations are false. So I've been relying heavily upon Turretin. Calvin is pre-Rome's Trent, so not as directly helpful. Turretin directly addresses Rome's "confession" Trent and also leading theologian at the time, Bellarmine. Basically, Turretin's Table on Contents are questions directly opposing Rome, Arminians and Socinians. So you just skip to the question you need. He's got the whole argument laid out for you in the EASIEST question-answer format with answer 1, 2, 3, 4. He has them even numbered. Super easy to follow. He deals with Rome's best theologians and he always gives evidence directly from the church fathers that shows Rome has departed historically and that the Reformation is a return to the fathers.

I find Turretin more helpful than Bavinck and much more helpful than Berkhof. Berkhof is way too brief - his section on the sufficiency of scripture is a brief summary and only about 1 1/2 pages. Bavinck in large text size is about 13 pages and he deals with Rome directly. Turretin in small text size is 8 pages and deals directly with Rome's leading arguments and theologians. Turretin will be your most helpful resource when trying to answer a question due to his direct Q&A format.

I strongly encourage reading Turretin by section/topic.

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## RamistThomist (Sep 8, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> What would be the Orthodox position then?



Paul is talking about his life as a believer.

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## bookslover (Sep 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> What would be the Orthodox position then?



Paul is speaking about his current life as a believer. Believers feel the struggle - as unbelievers cannot - between the old man and the new man, the sin nature and the new nature.

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## Dachaser (Sep 17, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Paul is speaking about his current life as a believer. Believers feel the struggle - as unbelievers cannot - between the old man and the new man, the sin nature and the new nature.


Would the position be then that Chapter 7 of Romans describes Paul as while in his new nature does now want to serve and please God, but that he still is weak in the flesh, and Chapter 8 is the revelation from God to us that we must now live in and by the Holy Spirit?


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## Dachaser (Sep 17, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Paul is talking about his life as a believer.


What was interesting to me was that while in my AOG days, their prominenent viewpoint was that Chapter 7 described Paul before salvation happened , but did not agree with them, as hard to see a lost person even delighting in the Law of the Lord.


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## Dachaser (Sep 17, 2018)

psycheives said:


> Sarah, jump in! You are SOOO missing out! I can't stress this enough. It's like a gold mine. Turretin really is not "too hard." Some topics are harder but many are easy. Don't start on Vol 1, Pg 1. People get scared because they start in at page 1 and can't make sense of the prolegomena and philosophy. I don't recommend that. Skip right to the sections that you want to learn about. If you want to understand the Sacraments/Baptism/Supper, then go there. If you want to understand our view of Scripture, go there.
> 
> For example, I'm trying to convince a brother that Roman Catholicism is false and their reading of history and biblical interpretations are false. So I've been relying heavily upon Turretin. Calvin is pre-Rome's Trent, so not as directly helpful. Turretin directly addresses Rome's "confession" Trent and also leading theologian at the time, Bellarmine. Basically, Turretin's Table on Contents are questions directly opposing Rome, Arminians and Socinians. So you just skip to the question you need. He's got the whole argument laid out for you in the EASIEST question-answer format with answer 1, 2, 3, 4. He has them even numbered. Super easy to follow. He deals with Rome's best theologians and he always gives evidence directly from the church fathers that shows Rome has departed historically and that the Reformation is a return to the fathers.
> 
> ...


The first Systematic theology read by me before becoming a calvinist was the 3 part one written by Charles Hodge, and knew that he interacted a lot with Catholic viewpoints, and he to me was a tough read at times. How would he compare to Turrentin than?


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## bookslover (Sep 17, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Would the position be then that Chapter 7 of Romans describes Paul as while in his new nature does now want to serve and please God, but that he still is weak in the flesh, and Chapter 8 is the revelation from God to us that we must now live in and by the Holy Spirit?



Yes.


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## bookslover (Sep 24, 2018)

In two or three days, I'll be down to the last 200 pages of Volume 3.

Turns out he didn't like the Three Stooges. (OK, I made that one up.)

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## Taylor (Sep 25, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Turns out he didn't like the Three Stooges.



Any theologian that does not like the Three Stooges is not worth my time!

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## bookslover (Sep 25, 2018)

Here's an interesting section.

In 19.22.5 (volume 3, page 430), Turretin says it is not necessary to use unleavened bread in the Lord's Supper.

_. . .the bread [Christ] used was unleavened, not from the necessity of the thing, but from an accidental circumstance of time, on account of the feast of the Passover, in which it was lawful neither to use nor to have any other (Exodus 12.19). Otherwise, it was always [leavened] in Judea (whenever the Supper was celebrated outside of that time, Acts 2.42) as well as among the Gentiles (who used common and not unleavened bread). So that here so fierce a dispute on this subject falsely sprang up between the Greeks and Latins, the Greeks pressing the necessity of leavened, the latter of unleavened bread. The former were called "fermentarians" and the latter "azymites."
_
He admits that the use of leavened bread is appropriate and that the widespread use of unleavened bread did not take hold until the ninth or tenth centuries. But, he adds:

_The example of Christ neither can nor ought to be made an objection here because, as we have said, there was a peculiar reason which impelled Him to the use of unleavened bread (which no longer exists). Therefore, His example binds us as to the essence of the thing itself, that we should do whatever He did (take, bless, and break the bread, and other acts of this kind mentioned in the sacred writers), but not forthwith as to the particular circumstances, which do not belong to the thing.
_
So, Turretin thinks it's OK to use leavened bread in the Lord's Supper, though he doesn't want to ban the use of unleavened bread. He believes that the leaven in the bread is a circumstance of worship (for historical reasons), not something essential.


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## bookslover (Sep 29, 2018)

In our church, when we have communion, we make allowances for those who cannot drink wine (for whatever reason), and so our communion trays have both wine and grape juice. I'm sure other Reformed churches do the same.

Interestingly, Turretin notes that the same problem existed in his day, and that allowances were also made for those who couldn't drink wine.

So, I guess this has been a common problem for centuries.


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## bookslover (Oct 7, 2018)

Less than 80 pages to go in Volume 3! Should be wrapping it up this week.


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## bookslover (Oct 11, 2018)

FINISHED!!

At 3:24 pm (Pacific Daylight Saving Time) today (10/11/18), I finished Volume 3. A total of three volumes comprising 2,046 pages of text in six months (April - October).

As for eschatology, Turretin has virtually nothing to say regarding the Big Picture except to say how wrong the chiliasts are (no thousand-year kingdom before the consummation). He concentrates almost entirely on personal eschatology.

Now, on to Book Four of Calvin's _Institutes_ (having read the three other books previously).

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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 11, 2018)

I hope there will be many brethren (not just yourself) down the line who accrue some residual benefit from your energies spent in this study. Your occasional commentary in this thread was encouraging, too.

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## bookslover (Oct 12, 2018)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I hope there will be many brethren (not just yourself) down the line who accrue some residual benefit from your energies spent in this study. Your occasional commentary in this thread was encouraging, too.



Thanks, Bruce. I learned a lot.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 12, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Thanks, Bruce. I learned a lot.


Richard,

Kudos on your completion!

Attached is a nice table of contents that may come in handy now that you have finished and later need to locate something quickly. It also illustrates to the reader just how unique Turretin's _Institutes_ are, for even the table of contents is quite instructive.

We affirm!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 12, 2018)

Well done, Richard. You will never regret having read Francis Turretin's _Institutes_. I am currently re-reading volume 1 and have 70 pages left to read, which I hope to finish by Tuesday. I have generally only read 10-15 pages a day (20 at a stretch some days). Few authors say so much in so little space.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 14, 2018)

I have just finished volume 1 this afternoon. I have a brief review here (it is not a survey of the contents, more an exhortation to read Francis Turretin).


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## Scottish Presbyterian (Oct 15, 2018)

bookslover said:


> FINISHED!!
> 
> As for eschatology, Turretin has virtually nothing to say regarding the Big Picture except to say how wrong the chiliasts are (no thousand-year kingdom before the consummation). He concentrates almost entirely on personal eschatology.



By chiliasts presumably you mean pre-millennials (the term in the early church described those who believed Christ would return and their would be a resurrection of the saints before the end of the world).


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## bookslover (Oct 15, 2018)

ScottishPresbyterian said:


> By chiliasts presumably you mean pre-millennials (the term in the early church described those who believed Christ would return and their would be a resurrection of the saints before the end of the world).



Yes.


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