# Of the Church



## AV1611 (Aug 16, 2007)

How are we to understand this from the WCF?

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, *out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation*.


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## Civbert (Aug 16, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> How are we to understand this from the WCF?
> 
> II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, *out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation*.



That it is extraordinary for one to be saved and remain separated from the visible Church. One circumstance that would be extraordinary would be for an individual who is believes in Christ for his salvation, but who also is forced to live in a place where there are no other Christians or churches for him to fellowship in or commune with, and no chance to communicate with another Christian - a Christian who is isolated from other Christians. Also, it would be extraordinary for an individual to be a Christian and reject fellowship with other Christians (thus rejecting the visible Church). There is almost no possibility that person is truly saved. Even someone with a deadly and highly contagious disease could have some sort of fellowship with other Christians. Although it is possible for someone to be believe in Christ and saved, but then die before having a chance to fellowship with other Christians. This too would be extraordinary.


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## wsw201 (Aug 16, 2007)

The Scripture proof for this phrase references Acts 2:47 - "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

The Standards do describe extraordinary events that would qualify as salvation outside of the church in Chapter 10 Effectual Calling Section III - "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." Note that the emphasis is on election.


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## AV1611 (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks guys


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## jbergsing (Aug 16, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> How are we to understand this from the WCF?
> 
> II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, *out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation*.


WOW, I had this very same question which I asked our TE over lunch some time back. He basically said exactly what Civbert said:



> That it is extraordinary for one to be saved and remain separated from the visible Church. One circumstance that would be extraordinary would be for an individual who is believes in Christ for his salvation, but who also is forced to live in a place where there are no other Christians or churches for him to fellowship in or commune with, and no chance to communicate with another Christian - a Christian who is isolated from other Christians. Also, it would be extraordinary for an individual to be a Christian and reject fellowship with other Christians (thus rejecting the visible Church). There is almost no possibility that person is truly saved. Even someone with a deadly and highly contagious disease could have some sort of fellowship with other Christians. Although it is possible for someone to be believe in Christ and saved, but then die before having a chance to fellowship with other Christians. This too would be extraordinary.


 
He also said, relatively speaking, that salvation is uncommon, or not ordinary.


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## Calvibaptist (Aug 16, 2007)

Civbert said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> > How are we to understand this from the WCF?
> ...



I would also add to this that it is extraordinary for someone to be converted apart from the normal means of the sent preacher proclaiming the Word of Christ. By this I do not mean that someone has to "go to church" to hear a sermon to get saved, but it would be extraordinary for someone to be converted unless SOME Christian shared the Word with them. The only other possible means is similar to Augustine, where he hears a little girl singing "take up and read." He picked up his Bible, which he had with him, read a passage and was converted. That is rare.


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 16, 2007)

Key word: *ordinary*

The sentence does NOT say: You need to be IN the church to be saved (the church is not the ark--Christ is). It does not say: You need to belong to A PARTICULAR CHURCH to be saved. It does not say: If you are IN the church you will be saved (it says it is POSSIBLE). It does not say: You need grace which the church ALONE dispenses to be saved. It simply says: the ORDINARY place where Salvation (the gospel promise) is discovered, is proclaimed, is in the church.

Can God save someone, in complete isolation from the work of the visible church, a Bible dropped in his lap, or something like that? Or an even more unusual way of giving him saving knowledge of Christ? Sure. But there is no other way that we _know _of, no other way that has his _promise _attached. So we shouldn't expect it.

We have no warrant from the Bible to expect or demand unpredictable, miraculous, interventionistic, _extraordinary_ acts of God, when he has given us *ordinary* means, and attached his promise to them. God does extraordinary things. Praise him for that. But it's not ORDINARY.

In fact we should expect the opposite--namely that without the church, there will be a very imperfect, and quite probably wrong, maybe even false and damning interpretations of man and sin, and the Bible, and Christ. And this is actually quite common, isn't it? All these lone-ranger, self-interpreters of truth. Many of them live in cities with a decent church or two--and they still reject the church! Why is that? Maybe because they don't love the Church that Christ loves? What does this tell you?

If there is an elect person, in utter isolation from the church, God will save him, and you know--we wiill probably never know about it until Heaven... precisely because the visible church was ignorant of him.

But this phrase in the Confession is strong ammunition against any view that preaches universalism, or near-universalism, i.e. *Salvation whether or not you are a Christian,* or *Salvation by sincerety.* NO. Absolutely not. It is the church's job to advance the Kingdom in the world. And by so doing, it brings the gospel _of salvation,_ it makes disciples. So, where the church has not come, or where it is being resisted, people are going to hell for sure! Outside the church is not a safe place to be.


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## Arch2k (Aug 16, 2007)

See this thread.


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## MW (Aug 16, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> The Standards do describe extraordinary events that would qualify as salvation outside of the church in Chapter 10 Effectual Calling Section III - "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." Note that the emphasis is on election.



I don't believe that section entails one to understand the divines as teaching that God saves infants outside the church.


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## MW (Aug 16, 2007)

Responses are stressing the word "ordinary," whereas the emphasis in the sentence is clearly on the word "possibility," which the word "ordinary" qualifies. Please note what the Confession teaches, that the visible church of Christ on earth is *the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ*. Is there salvation outside the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ? Of course not. A person might be saved who is outside of the church, but that does not require us to embrace the idea that salvation itself is to be found outside of the church.


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## wsw201 (Aug 17, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> wsw201 said:
> 
> 
> > The Standards do describe extraordinary events that would qualify as salvation outside of the church in Chapter 10 Effectual Calling Section III - "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." Note that the emphasis is on election.
> ...



I believe that the Standards are teaching that those who can not be called under the ordinary means but are elect will be saved regardless whether they are in the visible church or not. Why? As the elect they are a part of the invisible church.


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## LadyFlynt (Aug 17, 2007)

Unfortunately we have more and more people living without fellowship with other believers within a visible church building, though surrounded by churches in our culture. This is due to churches with aberrant doctrines, legalism, and the common issue across the board of "picking eachother off" within a church. Look around and you will see this everywhere and thus why people become discouraged and say, "Forget it!" Should we blame those people, or should we look at ourselves and see if we were possibly the cause of it?

This is why, I believe strongly in the invisible church supporting one another throughout our daily walk.


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## DTK (Aug 17, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> I would also add to this that it is extraordinary for someone to be converted apart from the normal means of the sent preacher proclaiming the Word of Christ. By this I do not mean that someone has to "go to church" to hear a sermon to get saved, but it would be extraordinary for someone to be converted unless SOME Christian shared the Word with them. The only other possible means is similar to Augustine, where he hears a little girl singing "take up and read." He picked up his Bible, which he had with him, read a passage and was converted. That is rare.



I don't think Augustine fits this paradigm so neatly. There is a background that preceded the voice of the little boy or girl (Augustine is uncertain), and his lighting upon Romans 13:13-14. He had been very much influenced by the preaching of Ambrose of Milan, and by the witness of his own mother, of whom he says in chapter 11 of Book 3 of His _Confessions_...


> And Thou sendedst Thine hand from above, and drewest my soul out of that profound darkness, when my mother, Thy faithful one, wept to thee on my behalf more than mothers are wont to weep the bodily death of their children. For she saw that I was dead by that faith and spirit which she had from Thee, and Thou heardest her, O Lord. Thou heardest her, and despisedst not her tears, when, pouring down, they watered the earth under her eyes in every place where she prayed; yea, Thou heardest her. For whence was that dream with which Thou consoledst her, so that she permitted me to live with her, and to have my meals at the same table in the house, which she had begun to avoid, hating and detesting the blasphemies of my error? For she saw herself standing on a certain wooden rule, and a bright youth advancing towards her, joyous and smiling upon her, whilst she was grieving and bowed down with sorrow. But he having inquired of her the cause of her sorrow and daily weeping (he wishing to teach, as is their wont, and not to be taught), and she answering that it was my perdition she was lamenting, he bade her rest contented, and told her to behold and see “that where she was, there was I also.” And when she looked she saw me standing near her on the same rule. Whence was this, unless that Thine ears were inclined towards her heart? O Thou Good Omnipotent, who so carest for every one of us as if Thou caredst for him only, and so for all as if they were but one!


The moment of his conversion was, at least I'm convinced, the consummation of all that had transpired up to that point. He had been reared by a godly mother, and he was very much affected by the preaching of Ambrose of Milan.

Thank you for bearing with me in trying to provide this little bit of context for Augustine's conversion.

DTK


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