# Working with a transgender coworker



## bbish (Dec 20, 2019)

Hello all,

A coworker of mine (I'll call him David) decided they would like to be referred to with female pronouns and with a new, legally changed name (Sarah). I work in a large department and fortunately don't work closely with him all that much, but every two weeks or so I'll spend the better part of 5 hours working with him. I'm conflicted on how to approach this in a loving way while also not being seen as encouraging sin or perversions of God created genders/sexes. I read this the other day from Tim Bayly which I thought was good (https://warhornmedia.com/2019/12/12/email-signatures-and-pronoun-preferences/) though it doesn't touch directly on my quandary (though he notes I really do face the prospect of being fired for not toeing the progressive line).

Has anyone here dealt with this? After talking with my pastor and my wife, I'm inclined to use the name and pronouns he prefers and just show him Christian love and hopefully he sees the power the gospel has had in my life and accepts it into his. I still feel uneasy about the whole thing (though everyone I work with feels pretty uneasy about it but I want to approach this from a Christian point of view).


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 20, 2019)

How important is your job to you? How militant is your company to be gender neutral? If you choose to disrespect the wishes of your co-worker you may get disciplined according to company policy. You may be disciplined for harassment or many other things. We live in a different world now days than my generation was raised in.


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## deleteduser99 (Dec 20, 2019)

What were your pastor's reasons?

I don't wish to counter a pastor's advice. But my gut instinct is that to call a "he" as "she" or the other way is to lie. It's not true to the facts.

This is worth discussing. We will all face it. My license's biggest society is pushing this big now. And this will impact buying and selling, be sure of it.


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## deleteduser99 (Dec 20, 2019)

Www.ceoaction.com

800 big-company CEOs have pledged they will make this a big talking point in their businesses.

I got that link from a blog article published by my licensing society. Their CEO pledged and is keeping his word.


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## KMK (Dec 20, 2019)

How often do you use pronouns when working _with_ someone? And if someone says their name is _____________, who are you to disagree?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Susan777 (Dec 20, 2019)

bbish said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A coworker of mine (I'll call him David) decided they would like to be referred to with female pronouns and with a new, legally changed name (Sarah). I work in a large department and fortunately don't work closely with him all that much, but every two weeks or so I'll spend the better part of 5 hours working with him. I'm conflicted on how to approach this in a loving way while also not being seen as encouraging sin or perversions of God created genders/sexes. I read this the other day from Tim Bayly which I thought was good (https://warhornmedia.com/2019/12/12/email-signatures-and-pronoun-preferences/) though it doesn't touch directly on my quandary (though he notes I really do face the prospect of being fired for not toeing the progressive line).
> 
> Has anyone here dealt with this? After talking with my pastor and my wife, I'm inclined to use the name and pronouns he prefers and just show him Christian love and hopefully he sees the power the gospel has had in my life and accepts it into his. I still feel uneasy about the whole thing (though everyone I work with feels pretty uneasy about it but I want to approach this from a Christian point of view).


But how do we show Christian love to someone by participating in a lie? This is a tough situation but will eventually reach all of us. In another thread it was emphasized that we should obey the laws of the government unless and until they cause us to disobey God. Now I know the State does not yet have complete power in this area but who can doubt that it’s coming? If many of us decide to go along with these requirements for various reasons I do not judge. But please don’t wrap it in some false idea of “Christian love” to justify it. That’s liberalism 101 and never ends well.


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## bbish (Dec 20, 2019)

KMK said:


> How often do you use pronouns when working _with_ someone? And if someone says their name is _____________, who are you to disagree?



More so when talking with other coworkers while around him. For instance, telling someone else that "he's on the phone and can't talk right now". The pronoun thing is largely easy to avoid anyways just through speaking thoughtfully. I'm largely with you on the name thing. Funnily enough, he picked a female name with pretty overt Christian significance.

To answer someone else's question, my pastor's reasoning was I shouldn't try to start off combative with him. He isn't receptive to the gospel as of right now (in addition to this transgender stuff, he has brought a wicca book into work and will read it on break and talk with people about it). I know he's in a tough place, because someone doesn't do what he's doing without having some pain. I know when he told me he was transgender he expected a negative reaction because he said as much because he knows I'm Christian. I do want him to know I don't hate him. I told him I pray for him regularly recently and he was appreciative of that.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Susan777 (Dec 20, 2019)

bbish said:


> More so when talking with other coworkers while around him. For instance, telling someone else that "he's on the phone and can't talk right now". The pronoun thing is largely easy to avoid anyways just through speaking thoughtfully. I'm largely with you on the name thing. Funnily enough, he picked a female name with pretty overt Christian significance.
> 
> To answer someone else's question, my pastor's reasoning was I shouldn't try to start off combative with him. He isn't receptive to the gospel as of right now (in addition to this transgender stuff, he has brought a wicca book into work and will read it on break and talk with people about it). I know he's in a tough place, because someone doesn't do what he's doing without having some pain. I know when he told me he was transgender he expected a negative reaction because he said as much because he knows I'm Christian. I do want him to know I don't hate him. I told him I pray for him regularly recently and he was appreciative of that.


No, to be confrontational is not what I am saying. You seem to have a good relationship with him and have let him know that you genuinely care for him. You have shown him the love of Christ for sinners (us). But is there a way to possibly explain to him that while you care him and want the best for him you cannot disobey your God? 

I’m not convinced that the strategy of avoiding pronouns will work for very long. It’s been tried. In northern VA a Christian public school teacher, very popular, tried that with a student with whom he had a warm relationship. He was perceived to have created a hostile environment for the student and was fired anyway.

I do agree that it is not lying to call someone by whatever name they choose. Remember a boy named Sue?


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## bbish (Dec 20, 2019)

Susan777 said:


> But how do we show Christian love to someone by participating in a lie? This is a tough situation but will eventually reach all of us. In another thread it was emphasized that we should obey the laws of the government unless and until they cause us to disobey God. Now I know the State does not yet have complete power in this area but who can doubt that it’s coming? If many of us decide to go along with these requirements for various reasons I do not judge. But please don’t wrap it in some false idea of “Christian love” to justify it. That’s liberalism 101 and never ends well.



My pastor was basically coming from the point of view that he's a co-worker, not a relative or even a friend (we don't hang out or communicate outside of the workplace). It's not on me to be an upfront rebuttal to his sin and provide "tough love" like maybe I would have to if he were my brother. That by hopefully showing him the happiness and contentment I have with my family and with God that I could serve as an example to him. So when I say "Christian love", I'm not going to invite him over and have him in my house but I don't want him to think that I hate him because I don't. If anything, I have tremendous sympathy for him because I can't imagine the pain he must be going through to think all of this is a good idea.


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## arapahoepark (Dec 20, 2019)

I craft my sentences to avoid pronouns like that.

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## KMK (Dec 20, 2019)

Just use the pronoun "Beloved". How can he complain?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## OPC'n (Dec 20, 2019)

I agree with your pastor. He isn't a child of God (yet) that you are required to point out his sin in order for him to repent then take it to the elders if he doesn't. He's like every other unbeliever you work with. We don't go around pointing out and condemning other unbeliever's sin to them. Scripture tells us not to judge those outside of the church bc that's God's job. Our job is to give them the Gospel by word and deed. If the subject comes up about transsexualism, then you will have the opportunity to tell him the truth. I don't treat the homosexuals and pro-abortioners at work differently, but if the subject ever comes up I will and have told them the truth.

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## deleteduser99 (Dec 20, 2019)

bbish said:


> More so when talking with other coworkers while around him. For instance, telling someone else that "he's on the phone and can't talk right now". The pronoun thing is largely easy to avoid anyways just through speaking thoughtfully. I'm largely with you on the name thing. Funnily enough, he picked a female name with pretty overt Christian significance.
> 
> To answer someone else's question, my pastor's reasoning was I shouldn't try to start off combative with him. He isn't receptive to the gospel as of right now (in addition to this transgender stuff, he has brought a wicca book into work and will read it on break and talk with people about it). I know he's in a tough place, because someone doesn't do what he's doing without having some pain. I know when he told me he was transgender he expected a negative reaction because he said as much because he knows I'm Christian. I do want him to know I don't hate him. I told him I pray for him regularly recently and he was appreciative of that.



All that really could be true you say, that he really is hurting. God bless you for your kindness to him.

Still, I think such a move will be seen by the transgender movement as capitulation. And in some degree, it is. I don't see how calling a "he" to be "she" is truth, names aside.

@Susan777 provides a needed caution. I think we in the church bought an idea that if we would just be warm and friendly (as though the church never has been) then we can win over the world. None loved like Christ, none does to this day, and He is hated anyway. There are multitudes of Christians who have tried a near over-loving approach to Sodomites, but the Sodomites are no less intentioned to make us bow. Even if your coworker may be a decent person, the Transgender movement itself does not forgive.

I feel for you. I see it coming down the pipe for myself. But I need to be determined that whatever obedience costs, it's worth the smile of God. What grace and
prayer you--all of us--need for such days! I will pray for you.

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## rookie (Dec 20, 2019)

Agreed with above. I work for one of the biggest employers in the Maritimes, and they claim much inclusiveness. About 3 months ago, I saw a very tall woman coming my way from across our little show room, noticed the walk didn't match the walk of a woman, then I heard the voice...it was much higher pitch than women, with an adam's apple. 

Then word got around real quick that he/she is a transgender. So naturally, we had no idea what pronoun to use. I work at a big truck dealership...political correctness isn't exactly in the trucker's vocabulary.

We all asked our supervisor, probably the least political correct one in the building, and he simply said, "call her Sarah"...(Ironically the same name). 

The bonus, I work nights, never see Sarah. The other bonus, Sarah only comes in our shop once every 4 - 5 months, that person works in the "continuous improvement" department. I'm not interested in a career in that department, so I should be fine.

The other part I agree with is, with no close intimate relationship with that person (relative, long time friend...) in a sense we are not responsible for their mental support, acknowledgement, validation and whatever other word you want to use there.

We are responsible for respecting them. And if the door or question arises about our faith, we are to share lovingly, compassionately and boldly.

Here's an article about Nike...the shoe brand, which is "woke" getting sued for not being woke enough. I think this transgender thing is going to self implode.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/form...illion-claims-preferred-pronouns-were-ignored


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## timfost (Dec 20, 2019)

Couple things:

I work and have worked with people who consider themselves transgender. Often times the work place is not the most appropriate place to "get into the issue."

1. When interacting with the person, pronouns are unnecessary.

2. Use the name by which they want to be called, not the pronoun. 

Sex/gender are rightfully assigned by God alone (Gen. 1:27). Names are rightfully assigned by man (Gen. 2:20, 3:20). Names can be changed for good reasons (Gen. 17:5) or bad reasons (e.g. Jehoahaz to Ahaziah, essentially taking God out of his name).

Reactions: Like 4 | Amen 3


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## ZackF (Dec 20, 2019)

Rom 12:18 weighs on my heart with this issue. I can live at peace with names but sex/pronouns are a different matter.


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## A.Joseph (Dec 21, 2019)

Use the name not the pronoun


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2019)

If he legally changed his name to Sarah, then his name is Sarah. Avoid calling him "she" and just say, "Hey you" or "Sarah."

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## Ben Zartman (Dec 21, 2019)

Gendered pronouns are an accident of language--in some languages everything has a gender, and that gender changes with different names for the same thing. We call boats a "she" though they could be an "it." To insist that I'm lying by ascribing a gender to my boat that is does not have is ridiculous. So it the panic about using people's preferred pronouns. We can show christian love by using any pronoun people want, and if they consider it a victory, they will soon see that it is a hollow one--they will still have that unsatisfied longing of soul that they though could be filled by making us use different words. Sure, they'll turn to some other thing then, still hoping to find fulfilment in being a bother to the rest of us, but maybe eventually they'll learn that happiness is not in that course, just like the social justice people who after they get everything they think they want, are still empty. Let them have their pronouns--call then zee and zer; call them thee and thou and ye; language is the least of our worries here.

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## A.Joseph (Dec 21, 2019)

Ultimately, pretty sad and sobering that we are even discussing this.

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## timfost (Dec 21, 2019)

Ben Zartman said:


> Gendered pronouns are an accident of language--in some languages everything has a gender, and that gender changes with different names for the same thing. We call boats a "she" though they could be an "it." To insist that I'm lying by ascribing a gender to my boat that is does not have is ridiculous. So it the panic about using people's preferred pronouns. We can show christian love by using any pronoun people want, and if they consider it a victory, they will soon see that it is a hollow one--they will still have that unsatisfied longing of soul that they though could be filled by making us use different words. Sure, they'll turn to some other thing then, still hoping to find fulfilment in being a bother to the rest of us, but maybe eventually they'll learn that happiness is not in that course, just like the social justice people who after they get everything they think they want, are still empty. Let them have their pronouns--call then zee and zer; call them thee and thou and ye; language is the least of our worries here.



I would respectfully disagree. Pronouns in *our* language in conjunction with people are directly associated with gender, which is precisely why they want them changed.

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## JimmyH (Dec 21, 2019)

I would be hard pressed to acquiesce to the 'preferred' pronoun. Thankfully I don't foresee being in that situation. Here is a good article on the subject.
https://www.theamericanconservative...VTgpkQh-Kd2r0TowGmCGxWh2aW6--9GXSuPInYHc8Ga30


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## arapahoepark (Dec 21, 2019)

I say we should all refer to each other as "it" as in cousin it. Same playing field language wise.


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## Ben Zartman (Dec 21, 2019)

timfost said:


> I would respectfully disagree. Pronouns in *our* language in conjunction with people are directly associated with gender, which is precisely why they want them changed.


Sure, Tim, but do they really win any victory if we call them what they want? If we had to carefully speak only perfectly true things, where would be sarcasm, where metaphor, where irony, where figurative language? I couldn't say "ain't no way" and be understood. I can let go of something that irks me like the pronoun thing does for the sake of not giving them any ammo.


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## Edward (Dec 21, 2019)

bbish said:


> legally changed name (Sarah)



If it's his legal name, I don't see any issue with using it. I'd use the name, and avoid ANY pronouns like the plague. There's not much you can do about his mental illness except avoid provoking him.

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## deleteduser99 (Dec 22, 2019)

Life is naturally thorny with many grey areas. There is being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Though, we have to ask if we've just come to a place where we have to suffer for Christ's sake. If we cannot both avoid suffering and honor Christ, shame on us if we prefer not to suffer.

And Christ did tell us such things would happen. Granted, it's amazing what utter insanity it is coming by, but God promised that those who don't honor and worship him would become the worst of fools. And those who love sin and foolishness will hate the church.

But as our sufferings of Christ abound, so does the consolation of Christ--that is, the suffering for His namesake. As Paul knew all too well, even feeling the sentence of death in himself, that he would learn not to trust Himself, but God who raises the dead.

There's the question, is there a nice way to approach this? Is there really such a thing as "pronoun hospitality"? Ask Lot if there was any real way to appease the Sodomites in his city. He wants to prevent one abominable act by proposing an only slightly less abominable act. What do they respond? "This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judged: now we will deal worse with thee, than with them." And who doubts this has been the approach of the movement? "We're going to sue your cake bakeries and photographers." "We're going to take away your tax-exempt status." "We're going to boycott and protest your stores, and prevent you from opening up more locations."

Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, "You're going to pay big time for not going along with us."



Ben Zartman said:


> Sure, Tim, but do they really win any victory if we call them what they want? If we had to carefully speak only perfectly true things, where would be sarcasm, where metaphor, where irony, where figurative language? I couldn't say "ain't no way" and be understood. I can let go of something that irks me like the pronoun thing does for the sake of not giving them any ammo.



The victory for them is for the church to capitulate. Any compromise, and they are confirmed in their sins. Best of all in their book, God is blasphemed by what they see as the church admitting against God's revealed will that there are ultimately no natural gender distinctions. Which means too they can sin in the way they want.

In the recent discussion of Chic-Fil-A someone brought up Daniel and the prayer law. Perhaps he could've just gotten away from the window. Maybe just found a more secret place to pray. However, any visible sign of ceasing to pray, and his enemies would count it a victory.

I can call a boat as "she" and everyone knows I don't think the ship is a female. When a male is asking to be called "she", he is asking to be affirmed as a female. Vice versa. They don't want to be who they are made by God to be. There is no irony or sarcasm or metaphor in our use of pronouns when speaking person to person in the ordinary course of language. She = "I speak to you as you are a woman", he = "I speak to you as you are a male."

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## Susan777 (Dec 22, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> Life is naturally thorny with many grey areas. There is being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Though, we have to ask if we've just come to a place where we have to suffer for Christ's sake. If we cannot both avoid suffering and honor Christ, shame on us if we prefer not to suffer.
> 
> And Christ did tell us such things would happen. Granted, it's amazing what utter insanity it is coming by, but God promised that those who don't honor and worship him would become the worst of fools. And those who love sin and foolishness will hate the church.
> 
> ...


A thousand amens.


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## Susan777 (Dec 22, 2019)

I have learned so much from the Puritans. They were a beacon of light to me during those years as an Arminian. They were so intensely focused on living for the glory of God alone. They were willing to endure persecution and the loss of property and station in this life because their eyes were fixed on Christ. They understood that one day they would give an account for their every word to Holy God. 

These days will bring about a shaking of the house of God. Let’s never forget that the sufferings of this age are as nothing compared to the glory that awaits us. We are told “Do not be conformed to this world”. What light is the Christian in the world if she conforms to it? Soon it will be illegal to be a truth teller. But if we are persecuted for righteousness sake we have only done what we ought. We cannot ever agree with perversion if we love our Lord because the test of love is obedience.

We are instructed to love and pray for those who hate and persecute us. And so we should. Our witness should be clear that we care for these people, not as a strategy to avoid their reproach, but because our Savior has commanded this.
Are we not told to return good for evil? So when the time comes for many of us to conform to this world or suffer we must remember to fear God, not man.


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## A.Joseph (Dec 22, 2019)

Most of my contact with transgenders have been fairly brief through my job and I didn’t know them prior, but I assumed they were actually men who were transgendered. However, since I didn’t know them prior to this transition I went with their presentation. I’m not going to seek to call anyone out. (It’s interesting how many of the men who are transgendered are actually pretty masculine in build).

My other interaction, I was working in a mental health treatment facility with a guy who was transitioning, or a newly transgendered. He opened up about his sexual abuse as a child which was pretty horrific. He was so messed up. I used his preferred name of Miley, but when my coworker, who I think may have leaned homosexual, corrected me when I used a male pronoun to discuss a matter concerning’Miley’ I just responded, ‘oh, ok’ but proceeded by avoiding the pronoun all together.


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## KMK (Dec 22, 2019)

The power of God resides in the gospel, not in pronouns. Be ready to share the gospel. Encourage him in Christ. Invite him to church. Satan always wants us to fight the wrong battles.

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## A.Joseph (Dec 22, 2019)

Just like people who embrace Wicca, and all these other strange identities, I think most of these people are hurting. I have seen people who embraced nihilism, atheism and the occult, eventually embrace Christianity. Jesus died for some of them as well. So it’s a fine line between the politics of the matter and the personal scenarios where grace and mercy prevail. I’ve never personally been used in such a way, at least that I’m aware of, but hopefully, God willingly, I can walk that fine line if provided extended opportunity.

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## Susan777 (Dec 22, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> Just like people who embrace Wicca, and all these other strange identities, I think most of these people are hurting. I have seen people who embraced nihilism, atheism and the occult, eventually embrace Christianity. Jesus died for some of them as well. So it’s a fine line between the politics of the matter and the personal scenarios where grace and mercy prevail. I’ve never personally been used in such a way, at least that I’m aware of, but hopefully, God willingly, I can walk that fine line if provided extended opportunity.


Of course these people are hurting. The way of the transgressor IS hard. But mercy is never served by lying. Be as loving as you can. Share the gospel with these poor folks, be ready in season and out to give a reason for your hope. When I was a pagan I had no respect for those who were willing to grant me my paganism. I sensed that they really didn’t care about me. So we extend mercy to those who are suffering the effects of the Fall, we befriend them whenever we can. We show extraordinary hospitality to them and refrain from condemnation. But lying to them is a false kind of love. It is better to obey God in these matters and leave the consequences to Him.

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## deleteduser99 (Dec 22, 2019)

Susan777 said:


> Of course these people are hurting. The way of the transgressor IS hard. But mercy is never served by lying. Be as loving as you can. Share the gospel with these poor folks, be ready in season and out to give a reason for your hope. *When I was a pagan I had no respect for those who were willing to grant me my paganism. I sensed that they really didn’t care about me. *So we extend mercy to those who are suffering the effects of the Fall, we befriend them whenever we can. We show extraordinary hospitality to them and refrain from condemnation. But lying to them is a false kind of love. It is better to obey God in these matters and leave the consequences to Him.



This part ought to stand out.


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## Ben Zartman (Dec 22, 2019)

KMK said:


> The power of God resides in the gospel, not in pronouns. Be ready to share the gospel. Encourage him in Christ. Invite him to church. Satan always wants us to fight the wrong battles.


This. @RPEphesian


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## deleteduser99 (Dec 22, 2019)

Ben Zartman said:


> This. @RPEphesian



@KMK 

Male and female representation of Christ and the church per Ephesians 5, the man representing Christ and his loving the church and giving himself for her, the woman representing submission to Christ in all things are all encompassed in those pronouns "he" and "she".

This is indeed a Gospel issue, and is a well-chosen battle.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Ben Zartman (Dec 23, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> @KMK
> 
> Male and female representation of Christ and the church per Ephesians 5, the man representing Christ and his loving the church and giving himself for her, the woman representing submission to Christ in all things are all encompassed in those pronouns "he" and "she".
> 
> This is indeed a Gospel issue, and is a well-chosen battle.


We are not in any way advocating the blurring of gender distinctions--God created them male and female. But the subject at hand is not a Gospel issue--the battle is not won or lost with pronouns, or cakes, or wedding paraphenalia, or politics: these are all things that distract the Christian from the real battle, which is the fight to the end against remaining corruption. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood--our fight is not an external one in the field of politics or society: those are things that distract many and many a Christian from the real struggle of keeping his heart. Our battle is first for personal purity, then for the purity of the church, and from there the Gospel will go to the unbelieving world, proclaiming to them not, "Naughty naughty, must'nt mix pronouns," but, "In Christ there is forgiveness of sins."

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## deleteduser99 (Dec 23, 2019)

Ben Zartman said:


> We are not in any way advocating the blurring of gender distinctions--God created them male and female. But the subject at hand is not a Gospel issue--the battle is not won or lost with pronouns, or cakes, or wedding paraphenalia, or politics: these are all things that distract the Christian from the real battle, which is the fight to the end against remaining corruption. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood--our fight is not an external one in the field of politics or society: those are things that distract many and many a Christian from the real struggle of keeping his heart. Our battle is first for personal purity, then for the purity of the church, and from there the Gospel will go to the unbelieving world, proclaiming to them not, "Naughty naughty, must'nt mix pronouns," but, "In Christ there is forgiveness of sins."



You seriously believe that a willingness to call he as she, or she as he, will have no impact on the lost world's ability to understand the Gospel? Especially in light of Ephesians 5? And you don't think that a willing pronoun mixup, or sodomite wedding cakes will not confirm the world in their sins? Especially if the church, which is called by Christ to be salt and light in the world--a preservative against evil--is playing along?

You cannot possibly promote the Gospel with any effectiveness if you are willing to play along with a perversion of the most tangible picture of the Gospel that exists in the world--the institution of marriage, which depends on gender distinctions, and depends on an indisputable line between male and female.

"The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you", Romans 2. What we do, say, how we act has an impact on the world, God takes notice of it, and He speaks up if the unbelieving world blasphemes the truth because of us. We are called to be salt and light in the world, preservatives against evil, even if the world does not believe. Salt that does not preserve is useless, and is thrown out.

Avoiding pronouns, I can agree to that strategy. Names, I can see a valid argument for giving them the name they want. But when it comes to calling "he" as "she", it's a straight lie. There is no Gospel coverup for that. None. It lies against natural revelation (which is God's law), it lies against special revelation. You cannot confirm someone in their lie, lie along with them, then give them the Gospel and then tell them that God demands they be cleansed from this perversion.

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## Bill The Baptist (Dec 23, 2019)

KMK said:


> How often do you use pronouns when working _with_ someone? And if someone says their name is _____________, who are you to disagree?



I would second this advice. Avoid using pronouns so as not to participate in his self-deception, but if he has legally changed his name then that is his name. There is no deception involved in using it.


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## KMK (Dec 23, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> You seriously believe that a willingness to call he as she, or she as he, will have no impact on the lost world's ability to understand the Gospel?



I never advocated for calling a 'he' a 'she', BTW. 

My point is that even if you prevail over a person's pronouns, dismantling their folly with steely determination, and winning them over to your enlightened opinion, they still remain in darkness.

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## Ben Zartman (Dec 23, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> You seriously believe that a willingness to call he as she, or she as he, will have no impact on the lost world's ability to understand the Gospel? Especially in light of Ephesians 5? And you don't think that a willing pronoun mixup, or sodomite wedding cakes will not confirm the world in their sins? Especially if the church, which is called by Christ to be salt and light in the world--a preservative against evil--is playing along?
> 
> You cannot possibly promote the Gospel with any effectiveness if you are willing to play along with a perversion of the most tangible picture of the Gospel that exists in the world--the institution of marriage, which depends on gender distinctions, and depends on an indisputable line between male and female.
> 
> ...


What you're missing is that no one is deceived by pronouns--not the perverts who want to change their gender; not the people who use them to avoid conflict; not the strident SJWs who's only agenda is to bend people to their capricious will. I'm not saying we should wholesale go along with sodomy and perversion: I'm saying that the battle is fought and won elsewhere than in an insistence on semantics. When the church gets caught up in politics, in attempting to conform an unbelieving society to God's standards, the Gospel is lost and theocracy enters. The church should preach against homosexuality and perversion and lying and cheating and stealing, but a churlish insistence on terms is the wrong battle to fight.


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## deleteduser99 (Dec 23, 2019)

KMK said:


> I never advocated for calling a 'he' a 'she', BTW.
> 
> My point is that even if you prevail over a person's pronouns, dismantling their folly with steely determination, and winning them over to your enlightened opinion, they still remain in darkness.



I see. Agreed. Sorry for misunderstanding. What I advocate against is succumbing to the demand.



Ben Zartman said:


> What you're missing is that no one is deceived by pronouns--not the perverts who want to change their gender; not the people who use them to avoid conflict; not the strident SJWs who's only agenda is to bend people to their capricious will. I'm not saying we should wholesale go along with sodomy and perversion: I'm saying that the battle is fought and won elsewhere than in an insistence on semantics. When the church gets caught up in politics, in attempting to conform an unbelieving society to God's standards, the Gospel is lost and theocracy enters. The church should preach against homosexuality and perversion and lying and cheating and stealing, but a churlish insistence on terms is the wrong battle to fight.



Of course not. Ultimately no. You can't go against nature and sit easy with it. Natural law in the conscience is amazingly powerful. It throws down kings and is a tormentor of tyrants. Drugs, alcohol and bullets all fail to quell the conscience.

But that makes no difference. They want it to be true. And the whole thing is a rebellion against God, His creation ordinances, and against Christ Himself. It is the world all saying against God and His anointed, "Break off their chains! Cast their cords away! We will not have this man to rule over us!" And what they want from the church is silence and compliance in the hopes of quieting conscience. As Calvin says, dogs will bark when our master is blasphemed? Is it nothing to us when our God is openly defied?

Great things have hung on semantics. At one time the difference between orthodoxy and heresy was the letter "i." Homoousios versus homoiousios. Christ has the same nature as the Father vs Christ has a similar nature to the Father. Only heretics would dare say that this was a semantic question, because the latter puts one in the class of believing a damnable heresy. The difference between these two words, that "i", is why JWs and Mormons are not brothers in Christ. It's like saying there is little difference between "yes" and "no" because they are both short.

There might be one letter difference between two very short words, he and she, but an inescapable lie and a violation of the Ninth Commandment is included in the addition or omission.

If we lose our salt Christ will throw us out. We are good for nothing. If we are a light to the world and a city on a hill, we ought to take very seriously that we have real duties to the unconverted world. If they do not see light they will perish, but we will answer to Christ for putting our light under a bushel.

And if anything, "Love your neighbor as yourself" which includes your lost neighbors, means that while you will not be an insufferable nag, it also means you will in no wise give an appearance that you condone the sin. Because one day God will judge them for this attempted perversion.

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## Ben Zartman (Dec 23, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> I see. Agreed. Sorry for misunderstanding. What I advocate against is succumbing to the demand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, at least you feel strongly about it.  We will disagree, but grace and peace to you.


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## KMK (Dec 24, 2019)

RPEphesian said:


> They want it to be true.



I am not so sure about that, for "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, _even_ his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20). They want a great deal of things, but they know it can never be true.

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