# Are Christians too preachy and judgmental?



## Pergamum

Yes?

No?

Maybe?

Why or why not?

How do we communicate the Gospel to unbelievers in a way that it can be received?


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## Stomata leontôn

Didn't I see this thread somewhere else?

Love ya!


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## Pergamum

It's always good to approach a topic from several angles...


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## Grymir

Just me!


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## Stomata leontôn

Grymir said:


> Just me!


No! *I* am the only one who is preachy and judgmental. It's _just me!_


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## David FCC

Preach the Scriptures - Can never be enough
Being judgemental - part of our natures unfortunately- need to pray that we do it less

I think interpretation of your question could be quite varied.


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## PuritanCovenanter

What is up with all this weird questioning Perg? God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says. It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.


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## Grymir

Pergy, just don't start using the word 'relevent', then we will have to come over there and shake you up.


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## larryjf

I see that many times as Christians we do judge others according to our standards. It's appropriate to judge others, especially those in the Church according to God's standards, but just think of how we put ourselves in God's place when we judge others according to our own perceptions and inclinations.

I think this is especially dangerous to foreign missionaries who, though they are called to judge the practices according to the Word of God, can tend to judge according to their own culture as well.


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## Kim G

I don't understand why people are making light of this question. This is a valid question. I think we should be willing to look at ourselves and see whether we ARE too judgmental.

Often when the world talks about Catholic nuns, they use positive terms about their devotion to God, love for the poor and sick, etc. WHY DON'T THEY THINK OF REFORMED BELIEVERS IN THIS WAY? We are supposed to be known by our love for believers. True religious is to visit orphans and widows in their trouble. Yet, to the world, we bicker and fight and condemn.

I think that believers should be full of joy, graciousness, kindness, love, and patience. These things ought to characterize a believer. Remember, we ought to speak the truth, but IN LOVE.

"May the most offensive thing unbelievers see or hear from us be that we preach that no man can come to the Father but through Christ."


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## kvanlaan

> "May the most offensive thing unbelievers see or hear from us be that we preach that no man can come to the Father but through Christ."



This is where it usually starts. Then it's 'why,why,why?' And then we are told we're judgmental because we add all these 'things'. We say the road is narrow when others think it is broad. We say you must seek after holiness and the evanjellyfish say 'what's that?' We say that it pleased Yaweh to crush His son for our sins, to pour out wrath upon Him for our wickedness, and the mainline church says "that's not _my_ God."


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## Hippo

Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; jforgive, and you will be forgiven; Lk 6:37

The key problem with being judgmental (or indeed preachy) is when we forget our own sinfullness and see ourselves (and not the work of the spirit in us) to be better than others, which should be an arminian not a calvinistic weakness if we understand total depravity correctly.


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## Christusregnat

Pergamum said:


> Yes?
> 
> No?
> 
> Maybe?
> 
> Why or why not?
> 
> How do we communicate the Gospel to unbelievers in a way that it can be received?



I think people are far too jugmental of Christians, and we are all far less judgmental on ourselves than we ought to be.

We should never give ourselves the benefit of the doubt, and should always give others the benefit of the doubt.

Pergy, this series of questions seems to imply you have a negative view of Christians. If you do, you need to see Christ's sheep as he does.

Cheers,


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## Gloria

Pergamum said:


> Yes?
> 
> No?
> 
> Maybe?
> 
> Why or why not?
> 
> How do we communicate the Gospel to unbelievers in a way that it can be received?




Some are. Present the gospel clearly in love. No matter how you present the truth of God's word, MOST non believers will say that you are being judgmental and preachy. The gospel is an OFFENSE.


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## Jon Peters

PuritanCovenanter said:


> What is up with all this weird questioning Perg? God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says. It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.


 
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but are we not to be concerned _at all_ about what the world thinks of us? What of those traits that are to characterize believers, i.e., mercy, godliness, love, meekness, peace? In my opinion, demonstrating these traits is one of the primary tools whereby the laity share their faith with the world.

Those outside of the faith are often in a very good position to point out our own shortcomings. We ignore them to our detriment. Sometimes when the world condemns us for hypocrisy, it's because we're hypocrites. Yes, the world will often be wrong, but hasn't God used ungodly men in times past to chasten and correct believers?


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## a mere housewife

There has to be some level at which even the world's opinion has *some* validity, because an elder is to have a good testimony with those that are without?

Also, Paul quotes one of their own (presumably unbelieving) poets against as I understand it, a faction in the church -- they're always liars, etc., says this is true, and commands Titus to rebuke them sharply.


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## kvanlaan

> How do we communicate the Gospel to unbelievers in a way that it can be received?



Verbally - with love, but not in negotiation with cultural norms; strict biblical exposition.


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## Christusregnat

a mere housewife said:


> There has to be some level at which even the world's opinion has *some* validity, because an elder is to have a good testimony with those that are without?
> 
> Also, Paul quotes one of their own (presumably unbelieving) poets against as I understand it, a faction in the church -- they're always liars, etc., says this is true, and commands Titus to rebuke them sharply.



Heidi,

These are good question. Often, however, when a culture is so distorted, it may be appropriate to say that "all Cretians are liars", but Paul stated that this testimony was true. In other words, not only did people say it, but it was also true. It wasn't a faction in the church, *it was the entire culture*. One could say "all Californians are liberals". Basically, on the whole, this is true. But it would take confirmation by someone who knows. Again, however, it is not a judgment against the saints, but against a culture in which the gospel was making impact.

Indeed, the elder is to have a good reputation with the community. This does not mean, however, that he would have a good reputation with the media, or Hollywood, or the local anti-Christ. An interesting example of this is when a gentleman I know was opposed for election as elder because he had been arrested. Why was he arrested? Because he was part of operation rescue, and blocked the doors to abortion clinics while people counseled the women considering abortions. Some times having a good testimony means that people will speak evil of you. Consider Jesus' reputation as a glutton, a drunkard, and someone who hung out with prostitutes. Wicked people distort the facts to suit their own purposes.

Cheers,


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## a mere housewife

Adam, thanks for your response. Yes I understand that sometimes doing something good gets us a very bad reputation (I remember reading about Jonathan Wesley in a sermon saying something about how he'd been accused of everything but a certain sin, which a woman then rose up and accused him of: he lifted his eyes to heaven and thanked God that he had been accused of *all* unrighteousness for his names' sake). We experienced this in Mexico: extra efforts were sometimes made on behalf of being a good testimony that resulted in even more heinous slanders than could have been made otherwise. Yet that still is a general consideration, because even unbelievers have some sound judgments.

And I do understand about the statement being made of the culture. Nevertheless, it was a judgment about sinful character qualities that Paul applied to certain people groups in the church, though a statement made by an unbeliever. As a cultural movement and a 'faction' in the church, fundamentalism tends to be too judgmental because they are not centered on the word of God in their judgments: I think it very likely that most people polled in the states about Christianity will be thinking in some way of fundamentalism? In this critique we who have left fundamentalism for a reason would have to agree; not because we want to think or speak evil of our brothers and sisters but because striving to do better in this area is one of the reasons we left. The critique is true not because the culture says so of course; but by the standard of God's word. yet even the culture can recognize that some people are really liars, etc. In other words, I think we ought to stop and examine ourselves when people say such things: if by God's word our consciences are clear, the world is obviously lashing out at God via us. If though we find that we are not living up to Christ's meekness as well as His zeal, we ought to recognize that even god hating unbelievers are able to experience and be hurt by our failings, and have something valid to say about them when they are.


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## Christusregnat

a mere housewife said:


> Adam, thanks for your response. Yes I understand that sometimes doing something good gets us a very bad reputation (I remember reading about Jonathan Wesley in a sermon saying something about how he'd been accused of everything but a certain sin, which a woman then rose up and accused him of: he lifted his eyes to heaven and thanked God that he had been accused of *all* unrighteousness for his names' sake). We experienced this in Mexico: extra efforts were sometimes made on behalf of being a good testimony that resulted in even more heinous slanders than could have been made otherwise. Yet that still is a general consideration, because even unbelievers have some sound judgments.
> 
> And I do understand about the statement being made of the culture. Nevertheless, it was a judgment about sinful character qualities that Paul applied to certain people groups in the church, though a statement made by an unbeliever. As a cultural movement and a 'faction' in the church, fundamentalism tends to be too judgmental because they are not centered on the word of God in their judgments: I think it very likely that most people polled in the states about Christianity will be thinking in some way of fundamentalism? In this critique we who have left fundamentalism for a reason would have to agree; not because we want to think or speak evil of our brothers and sisters but because striving to do better in this area is one of the reasons we left. The critique is true not because the culture says so of course; but by the standard of God's word. yet even the culture can recognize that some people are really liars, etc. In other words, I think we ought to stop and examine ourselves when people say such things: if by God's word our consciences are clear, the world is obviously lashing out at God via us. If though we find that we are not living up to Christ's meekness as well as His zeal, we ought to recognize that even god hating unbelievers are able to experience and be hurt by our failings, and have something valid to say about them when they are.



Heidi,

Very good observation; we are often very easy on ourselves, and very hard on others. This is also true of those without Christ; especially so. That said, we are to remove the plank from our own eye before we look for the spec in our brothers!

Cheers,


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## py3ak

Some Christians are, some aren't, and some need a good dose of preachiness and judgmentalism. What we have to be careful of is the tendency to take for granted that we are the happy medium. Sadly that old Pharisee from Luke 18 lives in each of our hearts.


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## MW

py3ak said:


> and some need a good dose of preachiness and judgmentalism.



I saw a poster recently which portrayed a person praying, "God, I thank thee that I am not like this Pharisee." It seems that it is possible to be imitating Pharisees even whilst boasting to be so unlike them.


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## py3ak

That's a good poster!


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## charliejunfan

all i say is that we should be like Christ ultimately and the Puritans secondly


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## Pergamum

PuritanCovenanter said:


> What is up with all this weird questioning Perg? God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says. It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.



Is it such a weird question?


I think there is a blind spot and we tend to think of sin as big glaring sexual sin or divorce or beating one's wife; but sins of the attitude and how we treat others are much more common.


Someone told me (and I think he was write) that folks who will never read the Bible will read Christians everyday. And often those two books an be quite different.

Shouldn't it be clear that we are different and this due to our love?


Besides, what's wrong with a little bit of navel-gazing and self-criticism? What happened to that whole judgment beginning in the house of God thingy?



Are we making the Good News sound bad to people due to our own words or deeds?




True story:

I had a fundy preacher come to my door on a tuesday night while I was in the army (off base), because he was doing "soul-winning". I was eating dinner and didn't want to be bothered, but I invited him in anyway and offered him coffee. With a combative nature he immediately asked me if I had repented from my sins. Amused, I asked him what particular sins was he so concerned about. A diatribe of sins that are normal in our culture rolled out (including homosexuality, drunkenenss, adultery) and this preacher spoke of the wrath of God directed at me. I asked him if he had repented of his own sins and what sure ground of salvation he had - he got mad at me and told me that this wasn't about him it was about me......


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## Zenas

I don't really care. 

I looked one of my good friends dead in the face at law school and told him he would go to Hell without Christ. We're still friends. I don't wake up everyday and wonder whether the world will think im too wierd or preachy or judgmental, etc. etc. because it's all hypocrisy for them in the end. The same friend pulled the judgmental card on me and I showed him how he, too, was being judgmental, and that being judgmental isn't bad, particularly in light of Scripture.


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## ModernPuritan?

yes.

simply because it seems alot of folk, attempt to dogmatically declare something that is not so dogmatically found in scripture.

whether any non western classical music is sinfull
permissible to drink
movies
plays
cards

etc.. certainly, there are principles that are to be followed, but i dont think the principals entail a cease and desist.


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## Grymir

ModernPuritan? said:


> yes.
> 
> simply because it seems alot of folk, attempt to dogmatically declare something that is not so dogmatically found in scripture.
> 
> whether any non western classical music is sinfull
> permissible to drink
> movies
> plays
> cards
> 
> etc.. certainly, there are principles that are to be followed, but i dont think the principals entail a cease and desist.



O.k. then, explain the Village People to me!


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## Pergamum

Zenas said:


> I don't really care.
> 
> I looked one of my good friends dead in the face at law school and told him he would go to Hell without Christ. We're still friends. I don't wake up everyday and wonder whether the world will think im too wierd or preachy or judgmental, etc. etc. because it's all hypocrisy for them in the end. The same friend pulled the judgmental card on me and I showed him how he, too, was being judgmental, and that being judgmental isn't bad, particularly in light of Scripture.





Is it the content of your words or how you say it that makes its preachy or judgmental? You could have said this out of love for a friend.

However, Fred Phelps says many true things and reads the same theologians that we do (Jonathan Edwards is his favorites I think I read) but he certainly is not winning many friends. He makes Christ look ugly.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Jon Peters said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is up with all this weird questioning Perg? God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says. It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but are we not to be concerned _at all_ about what the world thinks of us? What of those traits that are to characterize believers, i.e., mercy, godliness, love, meekness, peace? In my opinion, demonstrating these traits is one of the primary tools whereby the laity share their faith with the world.
> 
> Those outside of the faith are often in a very good position to point out our own shortcomings. We ignore them to our detriment. Sometimes when the world condemns us for hypocrisy, it's because we're hypocrites. Yes, the world will often be wrong, but hasn't God used ungodly men in times past to chasten and correct believers?
Click to expand...


Yes, God has used the ungodly to chasten his people. But it was usually by their sinfulness. Then God judged them for their sinfulness. And if you would have looked at my post close enough I believe God's gifts to the church should be the primary tools that keep us being merciful, godly, loving, meek, and seekers of peace. The world doesn't want this from us.


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## PuritanCovenanter

a mere housewife said:


> There has to be some level at which even the world's opinion has *some* validity, because an elder is to have a good testimony with those that are without?
> 
> Also, Paul quotes one of their own (presumably unbelieving) poets against as I understand it, a faction in the church -- they're always liars, etc., says this is true, and commands Titus to rebuke them sharply.



Good points. But the discernment concerning this comes from within the church and looking out at how a man is in his community. And the quote about liars is concerning a geographically located people. The Cretians are to be confronted about their sin of lying from the Church.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Pergamum said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is up with all this weird questioning Perg? God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says. It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it such a weird question?
> 
> 
> I think there is a blind spot and we tend to think of sin as big glaring sexual sin or divorce or beating one's wife; but sins of the attitude and how we treat others are much more common.
Click to expand...


Well I would disagree here. If one read Matthew chapter 5 he would understand this. And the discovery of this comes from within the Church and God's word instead of from without. All men are liars at best. 



Pergamum said:


> Someone told me (and I think he was write) that folks who will never read the Bible will read Christians everyday. And often those two books an be quite different.
> 
> Shouldn't it be clear that we are different and this due to our love?



I never implied that we shouldn't be different. We are God's epistle as it is written in Corinthians. But we all have indwelling sin to conquer. And humility would do us better if we would learn to biblically repent. But even this comes from within and not from the world. 



Pergamum said:


> Besides, what's wrong with a little bit of navel-gazing and self-criticism? What happened to that whole judgment beginning in the house of God thingy?
> 
> 
> 
> Are we making the Good News sound bad to people due to our own words or deeds?[/quote[
> 
> Judgment starts with an examination from God and not from man. We must look to the law and judge ourselves and hopefully remember it or we will be like the man in James.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Jas 1:21) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
> 
> (Jas 1:22) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
> 
> (Jas 1:23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
> 
> (Jas 1:24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
> 
> (Jas 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
> 
> (Jas 1:26) If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
> 
> (Jas 1:27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> True story:
> 
> I had a fundy preacher come to my door on a tuesday night while I was in the army (off base), because he was doing "soul-winning". I was eating dinner and didn't want to be bothered, but I invited him in anyway and offered him coffee. With a combative nature he immediately asked me if I had repented from my sins. Amused, I asked him what particular sins was he so concerned about. A diatribe of sins that are normal in our culture rolled out (including homosexuality, drunkenenss, adultery) and this preacher spoke of the wrath of God directed at me. I asked him if he had repented of his own sins and what sure ground of salvation he had - he got mad at me and told me that this wasn't about him it was about me......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well had you repented of your sins? Some people use the 'turn the table tactic' to avoid being put in the spotlight. Maybe both of you were blinded. And maybe both of you needed to repent? And just maybe he was like the man James describes. But the Church and Gods Word addresses sin. Not the World.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
> 
> (Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
> 
> (Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
> 
> (Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
> 
> (Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
> 
> (Eph 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
> 
> (Eph 4:17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
> 
> (Eph 4:18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## ModernPuritan?

Grymir said:


> ModernPuritan? said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes.
> 
> simply because it seems alot of folk, attempt to dogmatically declare something that is not so dogmatically found in scripture.
> 
> whether any non western classical music is sinfull
> permissible to drink
> movies
> plays
> cards
> 
> etc.. certainly, there are principles that are to be followed, but i dont think the principals entail a cease and desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O.k. then, explain the Village People to me!
Click to expand...


sorry, who are the village people? would that be folk who insist that the medieval western european ways of doing things are the only biblical way? btw those type (medieval westerners) can be too pushy/judgemental


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## Mushroom

> sorry, who are the village people? would that be folk who insist that the medieval western european ways of doing things are the only biblical way? btw those type (medieval westerners) can be too pushy/judgemental



 Oh man, are you in for it now. You'll be sorry you asked. Guess you had to be there, and believe me, you should be glad you weren't!


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## Pergamum

Y....M...C....A............!!!


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## toddpedlar

Grymir said:


> Pergy, just don't start using the word 'relevent', then we will have to come over there and shake you up.



Yeah, especially if you misspell it like that!


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## Pergamum

Hey, we're in Postmodern times.....don't push your modernist definitions of correct spelling and punctuation onto me!


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