# Pre-Existence of the Holy Spirit



## Zimon (Dec 12, 2010)

Hello!
I know this is probably a very stupid question but I need some passages that prove the pre-existence and the equality of the Holy Spirit... 
We have enough verses that support the pre-existence of the Son/Logos and their equality to the father but I need some passages that show that this counts for the Holy Spirit as well, especially when debating with JWs who say that the Holy Spirit is just a supernatural force of Jehova and no person of the trinity.
I thought about Genesis 1,2 but I don't think it is very clear, are there any better passages?
Thanks a lot!
Simon


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## KMK (Dec 12, 2010)

Zimon said:


> the Holy Spirit is just a supernatural force of Jehova



Even if this were true, wouldn't the HS have to be eternal seeing that Jehovah is eternal?


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## jason d (Dec 12, 2010)

God is three persons (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit)
- The fact that God is three persons means that each person of the Trinity is distinct from the other two persons. Matt. 28:19 | John 1:1-2; 14:26; 16:17; 17:24 | Rom. 8:27 | 1 Cor. 12:4-6 | Heb. 7:25 | 1 John 2:1

- The Holy Spirit is a distinct person NOT just the power of God: John 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-14 | Acts 5:3; 8:29; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6-7 | 1 Cor. 2:10-11; 12:11 | Rom. 8:16, 26-27 | Eph. 4:4, 30 | Heb. 10:29

- These would not make sense if the Holy Spirit is just the “power of God”: Luke 4:14 | Acts 10:38 | Rom. 15:13 | 1 Cor. 2:4 | 2 Cor. 3:17

The Holy Spirit is God
- Quotes by the LORD [Yahweh] in the Old Testament being attributed to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament: Acts 28:25-27 quotes Isa. 6:8-10 | Heb. 10:15-17 quotes Jer. 31:31-34

- Attributes of God: The Holy Spirit is creator [Gen. 1:2 | Job 33:4 | Ps. 104:30]
eternal [Heb. 9:14]
omnipotent [Mic. 3:8 | Acts 1:8 | Rom. 15:13, 19]
omniscient [Isa. 40:13-14 | 1 Cor. 2:10-11]
omnipresent [Ps. 139:7]

- Called God/Lord/Yahweh: Acts 5:3-4 | 1 Cor. 3:16 | 2 Cor. 3:16-18 | 2 Thes. 3:5

Here is the link to my outline with TONS of Scriptures when I taught on the Doctrine of the Trinity for Sunday School at my church: Trinity Outline/Notes from Sunday Seminary | Sovereign Joy Community Church


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## Peairtach (Dec 12, 2010)

E.g. If the Holy Spirit and the Son are just creatures of God,as they must be if they are not God himself, we have in Scripture God creating and sustaining the world through His creatures.

E.g. In Genesis One we have God (Genesis 1:1), the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), and the Word of God ( e.g. "And God said..." Genesis 1:3 and following; see John 1) 

_By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the Breath of his mouth.(Psalm 33:6) _

Every passage of Scripture that talks about God creating or sustaining the World is overturned because God didn't do it/doesn't do it on His own according to the Watchtower.

If you're dealing with JWs you are strongly advised to get solid material that shows up the errors and lies of the Watchtower Society down the years, so that the spell that the Watchtower Society has over their minds and over how they approach Scripture is broken. You should concentrate your fire on the Watchtower Society. This is the advice of many who have been converted from the JWs.

Do a search for "tracts for Jehovah Witnesses":-

tracts for jehovah witnesses - Web Search


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## Zimon (Dec 12, 2010)

Thank you! Some very good verses were presented in your list, Jason!

@Richard:
I never had contact with them since an uncle of mine who used to be a JW was stabbed to death by another JW and I never wanted to get in contact with them after this incident, but they descended on me two weeks ago. It was the first time I had a theological discussion with some of them, both were very young and wanted to talk about Christmas. I directed the discussion to the question "Could God become a man and take on human flesh?", which they denied first, and I was surprised that it seemed the first time for them to read Genesis 18, at least they could not give a proper explanation of what is exactly happening in this chapter. They left quickly but promised to show up again, they did not do so up to now, but if the ever would actually do so, it would be great if I had some tracts to help them back to the true path, i would also try to translate a tract if I had a good one or try to write one by myself, but me knowledge is properly not good enough to do so.


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## lynnie (Dec 12, 2010)

Zimon, this is not a stupid question at all. A long while ago I was having a hard time with a oneness Pentecostal friend ( modalism, God is one and there is no Trinity) and my hub told me to call a particular prof at WTS for some help. The prof told me straight out to stick to father and son, as that is very clearly presented, and the doctrine of the Trinity is not nearly as obvious. Once they admit father-son you are 95% of the way there, in that you've broken into the oneness error. It worked, in that girl finally capitulated to father-son and eventually ended up in a trinitarian Calvinist church (yeah miracles do happen  ).

I would start the same way with a JW. If you stick to the son being God, and they do eventually admit that much, you've made a huge inroad into their error before even starting in on the Holy Spirit. If you try to start with HS now you might get sidetracked away from the son. Just my opinion.


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2010)

John Frame's outline is very helpful:


> The Deity of the Holy Spirit
> 
> 1.	Triadic texts, Matt. 28:19, Rom. 15:19, 2 Cor. 13:14, Eph. 2:21-22, 4:4-6, Phil. 3:3, Rev. 1:4-5, 2:7. Here, the three are equal partners.
> 
> ...


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