# Going Vegan/Organic



## caoclan

Has anyone on this board decided to take their food consumption vegan and/or organic? If so, why? I found myself watching a CNN program (I know, my first mistake, lol) and was finding myself in a position I had contemplated many times, just more convinced this time. My issue is the pesticides, other chemicals, genetically-modified feed, and steroids in our foods. They just can't be good. My wife, 34, has some health issues (thyroid, depression, fatigue) that just don't seem right, and this program just might have sealed the deal with us. Here is the link to the video, if anyone is interested: Dr. Sanjay Gupta Reports: The Last Heart Attack – Sanjay Gupta MD - CNN.com Blogs

For the record, I don't have a problem with killing and eating animals, as I think the Lord has clearly given us the right to do, plus they are quite yummy. But the manner in which they are available causes me some pause. Plus, the cancer research concerning animal-based products was intriguing.


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## Leslie

If your diet is totally devoid of all animal products, in about 3 years you will become anemic due to vitamin B-12 deficiency. You can address that by eating an occasional egg or drinking an occasional glass of milk.


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## Michael

Life-long vegetarian here but not vegan. I was just raised that way and if I were to eat meat now I would get physically ill so I refrain. Compared to others around me who eat meat I guess I would be comfortable in saying that I seem a bit healthier. I went through a stretch for a while where I battled fatigue but it turned out that that was related more to a caffeine dependency. I rarely get sick, never had weight problems, and have a digestive system that seems to function like clock-work [if you know what I mean  ]. 

That said, going vegan/vegetarian is definitely not for everyone. You really need to know how to get proper and consistent protein in your diet. I can't relate to what it's like to try and "convert" but I've seen plenty of friends try it and I just shake my head at what they end up eating [nothing but starches, carbs, and processed foods]. What's the point of that?

As for the organic bit, it's usually just too expensive for me.  But as a child I ate a lot of food straight from the farm [without pesticides] and it was definitely much better than what I eat today.

If you choose to try it out just educate yourself first. Find the proteins that you like most and build your diet around them. Also watch your iron and B vitamins. You may want to attempt eating 4 slightly smaller meals a day rather than 3 regular ones because you might feel hungrier after the switch. 

Just a couple thoughts anyway.


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## JoannaV

We're very gradually making our food purchasing habits better, for some of the reasons you mention and also in order to support local farmers. But I don't have any burning conviction which makes me do this overnight. (That is, I like to buy cheap stuff haha.) So it's gradual. For example, I started to buy organic milk and now we always do and wouldn't consider not. So now the price of the milk is not relevant to us. And now I can start to think about buying organic carrots, for example. If I started buying carrots and milk at the same time the price difference would overwhelm me.
I wouldn't go vegan though. I would rather choose to buy animal products which I knew were produced naturally and without cruelty. I think this actually helps promote good farming practice more than being vegan does.


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## caoclan

We watched the documentaries "Forks over Knives" and "Food, Inc." Forks over Knives was related to the CNN special, which I referenced in the OP, but was more extensive. We watched Food, Inc. last night, and that made quite the impression with me as well. Has anyone else seen these docs?


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## Tripel

I haven't seen the documentaries, but I did read _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ by Michael Pollan, who was involved in making "Food, Inc".

It's a great read, and I highly recommend it.

One warning I'll give is that you shouldn't put much trust in the "organic" label, if you are indeed trying to eat the healthiest foods possible. "Organic" has come to mean very little, and much of it is produced by massive farms that do the bare minimum to get that label. Read Pollan's book. He explores the differences among a typical commercial farm, an organic farm, and then a small farm owned by a Christian family. The bulk of the book focuses on the latter farm, and it's an encouraging picture of how a Christian worldview shapes one's relationship to food.


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## Rufus

I could use some more vegetables but would not become vegan or vegetarian, although I have tried and wish to be more natural in what I take in.


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## JBaldwin

I'm now officially in the health food industry (we recently started a nutritaionl supplement company from the ground up), and I've been eating mostly organic for a number of years. We waved goodbye to pharmaceutical medicines (almost entirely) over 15 years ago, though we are not vegan. 

The problem with the most food you buy at the grocery store is that it has been sprayed with all sorts of chemicals which have as their side effects (if you take the trouble to read the fine print) that cause all kinds of health problems. Even if you are willing to put up with the pesticides and chemicals on the veggies and meat, the food additives present a problem. 

For instance, did you know that aspartame which is now regularly put in food as a sweetner, is the "poop" from a bacteria which was developed to eat chemical waste? The scientist working with the bacteria got some on his finger, tasted it and realized it was sweet. It is one of the active ingredients in ant poisoning. That alone is enough to make me want to eat organic. 

It's amazing how many health problems disappear when a person starts to eat healthy organic food.


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## JML

JBaldwin said:


> The scientist working with the bacteria got some on his finger, tasted it and realized it was sweet.



Definitely would not have been my first thought.


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## Rufus

JBaldwin said:


> For instance, did you know that aspartame which is now regularly put in food as a sweetner, is the "poop" from a bacteria which was developed to eat chemical waste?



Not to mention (this is according to a friend of mine) that it causes hair loss and got several Dessert Storm soldiers sick (when its heated to much it changes and can make you sick or something along those lines).


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## LeeJUk

I went vegetarian about a year and a half ago. I lost a lot of weight and I'm healthy almost all of the time.

I think it's a good thing. I went to Africa and I had to eat red meat again for 3 months but I didn't gain weight or get unhealthy. Right now I'm eating chicken/fish for protein and keeping away from red meat. That for me I think is the best balance. 

I also take vegan/vegetarian daily vitamins which are pretty cheap. They give you all your B vitamins, iron, zinc etc... that is missing from most vegan/vegetarian diets. I would definetly recommend you get these (you can get them at most health/organic stores or probably on the net). I was suffering from fatigue after about 2-3 months into my strict vegetarian diet but this resolved the problem and I never had it again. 

So yeah ultimately I think it's a great idea to go organic/vegan/vegetarian. Just make sure you take vitamins and get protein somehow (nuts, seeds etc... in this case).

Regarding aspartame, yeah that stuff is very bad and is linked to cancer as far as I know. I gave it up when I was 16 and I did notice a difference in myself. My appetite especially was reduced noticably after I stopped. Also I practically never get headaches. Maybe 2-4 times a year max.


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## JBaldwin

Rufus said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> For instance, did you know that aspartame which is now regularly put in food as a sweetner, is the "poop" from a bacteria which was developed to eat chemical waste?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention (this is according to a friend of mine) that it causes hair loss and got several Dessert Storm soldiers sick (when its heated to much it changes and can make you sick or something along those lines).
Click to expand...


One of my husband's friends is a chemist, and he verified a lot of this information. If you hang around the folks who work with this stuff reguarly, you will not find them consuming it. 

I want to add here that God gave us amazing bodies which can filter out a lot of the garbage to which we are exposed. The problem is that these days we are not just exposed now and again, we are bombarded daily with chemicals and toxins which build up in our systems. A lot of times the problems don't show up right away.


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## Rufus

I would like my diet to be consisted of Japanese food, not only could I eat meat, but it's healthy, and delicious.


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## JBaldwin

Sean, I've not seen Food, Inc., but I've heard about it. I'm going to try to find it and watch it. 

Daniel, Thanks for the comment about the organic food not being well-marked. That is very true, and we have learned to check to the sources of our food.


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## Edward

LeeJUk said:


> Regarding aspartame, yeah that stuff is very bad and is linked to cancer as far as I know.



Got any legitimate proof for that?


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## caoclan

Thanks for the replies, I would love this to keep going. We have been cooking a lot of recipes out of a vegan cookbook and have really enjoyed them. I really cannot believe I have gone vegan. I love my meat, but c'est la vie!


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## Zach

Rufus said:


> I could use some more vegetables but would not become vegan or vegetarian, although I have tried and wish to be more natural in what I take in.



If you want more veggies brother I recommend drinking the V8 Fusion juice. College eating habits don't lend themselves to eating much veggies, but I've found I really like V-8 Fusion.


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## FenderPriest

caoclan said:


> We watched the documentaries "Forks over Knives" and "Food, Inc." Forks over Knives was related to the CNN special, which I referenced in the OP, but was more extensive. We watched Food, Inc. last night, and that made quite the impression with me as well. Has anyone else seen these docs?


We watched Food, Inc. Forks Over Knives strikes me as more propaganda-ish. A good documentary to watch on this is "Fat Head". It's on Netflix, which I assume is what you were using. "Nourishing Traditions" is a good book to go to in learning the in's-and-outs of good health, and what foods you should eat organic, and which it doesn't matter for. We do more organic foods, which is easier living near farmlands. I think it's healthier for you even simply by the exclusion of chemicals. But in some ways it's more the issues of sugar consumption that's a real problem. My advice is simply this: First, remember this is an area of Christian liberty and conscience, but also a matter of taking care of the body God's given you. That is, don't make it a Gospel-binding issue on people. Secondly, do the research, and remember - no matter how good your diet is, it won't give you a glorified body, so chill out and enjoy what God's given you. Thirdly, if you're going to make dietary changes (be it an all-organic one, or whatever), do it as a family with clear goals so everybody's on the same page and is eager about it. Nothings' worse than a dad who's religion consists of Jesus and a diet-idol. Make small steps, and if this is important to you, allow more money in your budget for it with a clean conscience that you're trying to make the best decisions for your family.

Just a few thoughts... It's something that comes up a lot in my context.


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## jwithnell

I'm old enough to have seen a lot of food recommendations come and go and have developed a skeptical eye toward any extreme. 

Remember when eggs would kill you for sure and certain? How about the tons of studies regarding red meat that didn't differentiate between red meat (even a lean cut of beef) and processed meat full of fat and weird stuff (baloney). I don't think any of those results can be trusted. Coffee and wine? It turns out to be good for you in moderation. Hey margarine was supposed to be good for you!

In the long run, I'd be willing to bet money that the problem is taking a food too far from its original state. Canola oil -- highly, highly processed! That bean protein product that tastes just like beef? I don't even want to think about it.

I'm highly influenced by Mediterranean food traditions and generally prefer to know where my food is coming from -- I almost never buy anything out of season. If I can't pronounce the ingredient, I don't buy the product. Sugar is fine in small amounts; don't give me "sweetners." etc., etc.


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## caoclan

Thank you Jacob. Good points, and this is absolutely not something I would even attempt to bind another's conscious with, I hope that has not come across from my writing. Addressing your Forks over Knives comment: have you watched it? Or does it come across as potential propaganda due to the CNN connection? I am truly interested if you have a specific issue with that documentary. And the family is all on the same page without a doubt, and it is in no way some kind of idol, we just have some health issues we are trying to combat and prevent.


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## JBaldwin

We tend to forget that until the 20th century, people pretty much ate what was available. It has only been in the last 100 years that we have had available to us lots of processed food. While it not a religious isssue for me (i.e.I just ate a Klondike bar), we should consider that God created us to eat the food that is grown on the planet, not something that was processed and produced in a lab. 

.


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## jgilberAZ

I believe low carb, moderate protein, high fat is the healthiest.

Jeff Gilbertson's Blog

And, believe there are health issues with going vegan.

Just my two cents ... don't want to argue about it.


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## Scott1

There are valid reasons to try to eat less meat, and to eat more healthy food in general.

What you will quickly find is that meat products and certainly animal products are in all sorts of foods and you will have eaten them unknowingly. Also, that "organic" is a wily term that means different things to different people, and is a relative term.

We also know Scripture causes us not become over obsessed with diet, food and eating. It can be a form of idolatry, like any other, taking something good and giving it preeminence in life.

Yet, there are lots of healthy and reasonable things you can do to eat more healthy. Grass fed beef, raised without hormones can be purchased as a "side of beef," for example. Not only does it taste better, it often is less expensive, and is better for you (less chemicals).

In many cases, eating more fruits and vegetables is a good thing, fewer pesticides and chemicals the better.

But there is a flip side of risk. E.g. the case of the "organic" dairy company. It ended up having a salmonella outbreak because they did not pasteurize. It affected all sorts of milk products, and the company reputation. Is it better to risk food born illness than to have incidental processing that causes vitamin loss?

There are no one-size-fits-all answers to these kinds of questions.

"Organic," and "vegetarian," turn out to be very inconsistent concepts.


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## jwright82

caoclan said:


> Has anyone on this board decided to take their food consumption vegan and/or organic? If so, why? I found myself watching a CNN program (I know, my first mistake, lol) and was finding myself in a position I had contemplated many times, just more convinced this time. My issue is the pesticides, other chemicals, genetically-modified feed, and steroids in our foods. They just can't be good. My wife, 34, has some health issues (thyroid, depression, fatigue) that just don't seem right, and this program just might have sealed the deal with us. Here is the link to the video, if anyone is interested: Dr. Sanjay Gupta Reports: The Last Heart Attack – Sanjay Gupta MD - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> For the record, I don't have a problem with killing and eating animals, as I think the Lord has clearly given us the right to do, plus they are quite yummy. But the manner in which they are available causes me some pause. Plus, the cancer research concerning animal-based products was intriguing.



You live in Memphis, one of the capitals of BBQ, I would think that there would be some corn fed/home raised places around there to get good meat. Around here lots of people home grow there meat. I can think of nothing better than a fresh pig slaughtered and then almost immediatly put on a smoker. Also I had homegrown cow as well, my mom raised one and then had it slaughtered, the absolutly best steak of my life. But if it is for health reasons than more power to you. I for one don't mind Vegans at all, it means more meat for the rest of us carnivores.


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## TimV

I've sold my honey at Farmer's Market's etc.. for a dozen years. Most organic farmers lie. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. They usually spray.

As to spraying with chemicals, I really don't mean to be offensive, but it's usually an educational thing, i.e. the better educated the more you don't worry about it. Saying pesticides are bad is like saying fish eat humans. Sure, some like sharks do, but anchovies, perch and trout don't.

I have Biblical reservations against GMF, and given the choice I don't eat it, but I don't go looking at labels for it either.

Red meat usually is fed much more naturally than chicken, btw.. And most people haven't a clue as to what a hormone is either.

Anyway, if someone wants to go vegan, or not have their kids vaccinated, or wear amber around their neck to ward off evil, or think Saddam had something to do with 9-11 it usually doesn't hurt anyone in a first world culture that can absorb crank beliefs. But if enough people start believing crank theories, then they and society in general can indeed suffer.


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## J. Dean

I tried going vegetarian once.


That was the longest three hours of my life....


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## he beholds

I was vegetarian in high school and college. It started in ninth grade when I went on a field trip to an ecology fair with my high school and was told about all of the horrible things done to animals. Then in college I was on a six-week backpacking trip and I think that type of exercise made me just really need meat, because for the first time in seven years I craved meat. (It was SPAM, so it definitely wasn't some great meal just tempting me!) Since then I've eaten meat again, though in 2010 my husband's new year's resolution (after watching Food Inc in late 2009!) was to see if we could go a whole year without BUYING meat or only buying happy meat (you know, hunted, free range, cruelty-free, etc.). The reason we put _buying_ in the resolution was because when I was a strict vegetarian I hated turning meals down when offered, or had people cooking special meals just for me. I felt like a snob and I felt rude and ungrateful, etc. So I wanted to make sure that our resolution did not come to offend others. If it's not a religious conviction (which even in high school it wasn't--I would have, theoretically, eaten a hunted animal) I don't think it should be a hill to die on for me. If someone were serving me a hamburger and even if it were from Wal-Mart, eating one would not really harm my health. Plus, my duty is to love man, not animal, though I do like animals and prefer them to have a nice life before becoming someone's dinner. 
We did it for a whole year and now our habits are just a little stuck there (I also don't LOVE meat and I almost hate cooking it, so it's easy), but we have probably bought meat once a month or so since the beginning of this year. I was pregnant until August of this year and was extremely anemic when I gave birth. (My blood count was 6 point something or 7 and the blood transfusion conversation was being had!) I'm sure that's related! And yes, I did eat my spinach : )

Anyway, my advice would be to keep it a thing for your family, but if you are company in someone's home and you aren't religiously convicted to not eat meat, then just gratefully accept their hospitality.


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## FenderPriest

caoclan said:


> Addressing your Forks over Knives comment: have you watched it? Or does it come across as potential propaganda due to the CNN connection? I am truly interested if you have a specific issue with that documentary.


I haven't watched the documentary, but I did watch the trailer to it. As it appears to me, the trailer paints the picture that there's a direct link between meat consumption and all these major problems we're facing today, i.e. cancer. When a documentary presents itself as solving the major issues of the world, be it through dieting or natural birthing, I call foul play. I may have gone to public school, but I think I know enough to recognize an agenda when I see one, and illogical deductions when they're presented. There may be _some_ connection, but to present your research as though to say: A) People who eat meat get more cancer, B) People who don't eat meat don't get as much cancer, C) Therefore, less meat equals less cancer - That, in my mind, is a _non sequitur_. The issues involved in cancer are deeply complex because the human body is complex. The issues involved in food/diet are complex as well. How the two interact strike me as being complex as well, so easy answers strike me as being ridiculous from the outset.

Also, personally, my opinion is that the bar is set so low for what is considered "profound" and "insightful" by major news outlets (FOX, NPR, CNN, etc.), that I generally assume they go for the easy answers that easily explain problems quickly than make their viewers wrestle through, you know, long, thought-out arguments. Whether that's gracious and/or accurate, I won't say - but I mention it just to show the cards I'm working with and how I deal them.

So, I don't know, that's where I come from on this. As I said, I've only watched the trailer, but a good trailer should give you a snap shot of the film's trajectory and conclusions... If I'm off base here, I'm definitely open to correction!


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## SRoper

Edward said:


> LeeJUk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding aspartame, yeah that stuff is very bad and is linked to cancer as far as I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got any legitimate proof for that?
Click to expand...


I'd be interested in any evidence of that, too.

Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.


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## LawrenceU

JBaldwin said:


> healthy organic food.



This is key. 'USDA Certified Organic' means very little. Real organic produce is very different. Some of it the USDA won't certify.


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## awretchsavedbygrace

For those of you who wish to eat healthier or lose some weight- just eat less meat. Become a Semi-Vegetarian.


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## Andres

Rufus said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> For instance, did you know that aspartame which is now regularly put in food as a sweetner, is the "poop" from a bacteria which was developed to eat chemical waste?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention (this is according to a friend of mine) that it causes hair loss and got several Dessert Storm soldiers sick (when its heated to much it changes and can make you sick or something along those lines).
Click to expand...


_Dessert_ Storm?!!! Now that I could get behind! Sign me up!


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## JBaldwin

SRoper said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LeeJUk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding aspartame, yeah that stuff is very bad and is linked to cancer as far as I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got any legitimate proof for that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in any evidence of that, too.
> 
> Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure about the link to cancer, but I do know that the other information has been verified by the chemists that work with my husband.


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## jwright82

Joshua said:


> The Regulative Principle of Eating requires that I have meat, whether fowls, creeping things, wild, or four-footed beastly creatures.



Amen brother, amen!


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## ZackF

jgilberAZ said:


> I believe low carb, moderate protein, high fat is the healthiest.
> 
> Jeff Gilbertson's Blog
> 
> And, believe there are health issues with going vegan.
> 
> Just my two cents ... don't want to argue about it.



Exactly. Not just physical health problems but mental problems/depression. You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products. Ask a veg*n about their mental health 18-36 months after taking the plunge.


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## Michael

KS_Presby said:


> You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products


I beg to differ on that one.


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## Rufus

Andres said:


> Rufus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> For instance, did you know that aspartame which is now regularly put in food as a sweetner, is the "poop" from a bacteria which was developed to eat chemical waste?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention (this is according to a friend of mine) that it causes hair loss and got several Dessert Storm soldiers sick (when its heated to much it changes and can make you sick or something along those lines).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Dessert_ Storm?!!! Now that I could get behind! Sign me up!
Click to expand...


Oops. I'd sign up for _Dessert_ storm too.


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## ClayPot

caoclan said:


> We watched the documentaries "Forks over Knives" and "Food, Inc." Forks over Knives was related to the CNN special, which I referenced in the OP, but was more extensive. We watched Food, Inc. last night, and that made quite the impression with me as well. Has anyone else seen these docs?



Many of these documentaries are available through Netflix Instant Streaming. I started Food, Inc. the other day, but haven't finished yet.


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## Pilgrim Standard

caoclan said:


> Has anyone else seen these docs?


Food Inc was interesting, I found "The Future of Food" to be very good as well.

I am certainly not a vegi in any sense. I suppose if it was not for my loving wife, I would be eating meat and potatoes almost exclusively. 
I do prefer to eat organic and free range or grass fed foods. (When I use these terms I mean food from small farms within reasonable geographic proximity to me, as I can see how it is produced. Some we get from the Amish. There is a taste preference with me, as well as a comfort level of knowing more about what is actually "IN" the food I eat. I don't trust overly processed food ingredients, and I especially do not like genetically modified foods. Ironically have no issue with cloned plants, but do not trust cloned animals. These can not be equated. I clone mint plants in a very strict sense of the word, when I drop pieces of it on the ground that I have harvested. 

I also prefer that the animals that I consume were treated as I believe we ought to treat them. This is certainly not the case in much of the Mega Big Ag corps that produce so much of the American Diet. That being said, the Meat I consume does not all come organically nor can I confirm that it is all treated in a humane manner. But the meat I get from farms, I can validate from some slaughters I have been to, and the ability to actually see the animals grow, that they are treated and put down well. 

As for Milk, I love raw milk. I know it does not have hormones injected which fiddle with estrogen levels, and the proteins are not manipulate beyond recognition in due to processing. I have been drinking it for years and have never had a problem with it. I have some problems with store bought milk.


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## ZackF

Pilgrim Standard said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone else seen these docs?
> 
> 
> 
> Food Inc was interesting, I found "The Future of Food" to be very good as well.
Click to expand...


Speaking of documentaries, Tom Naughton's "Fat Head" is a great response to Morgan Spurlock's "SuperSize Me".


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## Edward

Pilgrim Standard said:


> As for Milk, I love raw milk. I know it does not have hormones injected



You are drawing a false conclusion. Hormones aren't introduced into the milk when it is processed/ pasteurized. It's introduced at the cow stage. So whether or not milk is raw has nothing to do with whether it has hormones. And, conversely, you can get processed milk which has not had hormones added if you are willing to pay a premium.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------




SRoper said:


> Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.



Sure you aren't thinking of HFCS? In my opinion, cane sugar is much better for you (or less bad, perhaps) than is HFCS.


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## LawrenceU

Michael said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> 
> You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ on that one.
Click to expand...


I will NOT walk through the wide open door that Michael just left swinging. . . .


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## BernardMarx

About six months ago I basically stopped wheat. I lost a tonne of weight and I feel much more happy and energetic, generally speaking. I now eat spelt and kamut flour. Other than that I don't really care to get all involved with health food. Too much stress and worry.


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## JBaldwin

When I think of the simplicity of food in the generation of my parents or even my childhood vs. what is generally available now, I can see why one would think it stressful and worrisome to think about eating right. 

It was really the babyboomers and their children who embraced processed foods: Twinkies, Ho-hos, Freetos, Captain Crunch, Jello and Lays Potato Chips are processed foods that appeared on and off in my household when I was a child. Even so, the balance of our diet was still fresh veggies and fruits from the garden, grocery store or farm stand and meat from the butcher, and I lived in the suburbs of Chicago. Until the early 1970s, my family was still getting milk and eggs delivered to the house by the local dairy, and it was left in a milkbox--outside, even in the summer time! 

My parents both grew up eating mostly food they raised as meat or in the garden. Sugar and coffee were the items purchased at the local store. 

Here's another thought (and I'm sure someone will jump all over me for it, but it's just an observation)--with the rise of processed foods in the Western diet has come the flood of cancer patients. I'm not blaming processed foods for the rise in cancer, but I wonder if there is some connection?


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## LawrenceU

JBaldwin said:


> Here's another thought (and I'm sure someone will jump all over me for it, but it's just an observation)--with the rise of processed foods in the Western diet has come the flood of cancer patients. I'm not blaming processed foods for the rise in cancer, but I wonder if there is some connection?



I am fairly well convinced that there is a connection. It may be simple, or it may be complex, but there is something there. Food is no longer seen as food. It is now seen as nutrition; components rather than a whole. That is fallacious understanding of the incredible creation.


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## TimV

No, there's truth to it. If nothing else it's established that a lack of fiber causes some cancers. I think ONE thing to keep in mind is that smoking and a fatty non fibrous diet cause probably two thirds of those cancers that aren't do to people living longer, genetic predisposition etc...

I just wonder about the wisdom of worrying about a farmer spraying a botanically based pyrethroid on his broccoli to kill bugs when the cancer cause that, if any, is rarer than being struck by lightening. 

I mean, getting lots of exercise, eating well, not smoking like a chimney and keeping sex monogamous takes care of the vast majority of cancers you can actually prevent by behavior, so why stress that someone found a piece of asbestos in your kid's school?


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## SRoper

Michael said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> 
> You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ on that one.
Click to expand...


I do to. Again, I'd be interested in any studies on the topic. There are certainly unhealthy vegetarian/vegan diets, but eliminating animal products is not necessarily unhealthy.


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## ZackF

LawrenceU said:


> Michael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> 
> You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ on that one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I will NOT walk through the wide open door that Michael just left swinging. . . .
Click to expand...

 
I was hoping someone else would....


----------



## TimV

A person could do a lot worse than using Christ as an example for that too. Butter, honey, milk, red meat, fish, wine, olive oil, figs, bread. Why one would want to cut any of these out of one's diet has always been a mystery to me. He like, made us...... and knows what's good for us.


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## JBaldwin

Not all animal fats are alike, and fish oils such as the Omega 3s and 6s are excellent brain food. If you have a foggy head, just try taking a high quality omega 3 every day. You might be surprised what you discover.


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## bookslover

You're right - watching CNN was your first mistake...

"Organic" comes from a Latin word that means "more expensive for no legitimate reason than the ordinary stuff." There is zero nutritional difference between an organic tomato and an un-organic one. Just the price. At the stores I shop in, the organic section is almost always completely empty of customers.

It's bad enough that I had to give up red meat because of my gout...


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## TimV

Richard, 2 months living with me would cure you of gout. You wouldn't be really happy, but at the end of the two months you'd be gout free.


----------



## J. Dean

All this talk about veganism makes me want a prime rib, medium rare....


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## caoclan

KS_Presby said:


> jgilberAZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe low carb, moderate protein, high fat is the healthiest.
> 
> Jeff Gilbertson's Blog
> 
> And, believe there are health issues with going vegan.
> 
> Just my two cents ... don't want to argue about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Not just physical health problems but mental problems/depression. You brain needs the fats/cholesterol/protein found in animal products. *Ask a veg*n about their mental health 18-36 months after taking the plunge*.
Click to expand...


I would be interested to find out if this is an anecdotal statement, or factual. If factual, can you provide me somewhere to check that out?


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## ChristianTrader

caoclan said:


> We watched the documentaries "Forks over Knives" and "Food, Inc." Forks over Knives was related to the CNN special, which I referenced in the OP, but was more extensive. We watched Food, Inc. last night, and that made quite the impression with me as well. Has anyone else seen these docs?



“Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique) « Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet


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## JoannaV

It's quite possible that there are different ideal diets for different individuals.


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## SRoper

Edward said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you aren't thinking of HFCS? In my opinion, cane sugar is much better for you (or less bad, perhaps) than is HFCS.
Click to expand...


There's no evidence to support your claim. Your body doesn't care--sugar is sugar. Replacing one form for another has no impact on health.

The Health Effects of High Fructose Syrup

My wife is a physician and her undergraduate was in nutrition and food science, so this is often our dinner-time conversation.


----------



## ChristianTrader

SRoper said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you aren't thinking of HFCS? In my opinion, cane sugar is much better for you (or less bad, perhaps) than is HFCS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's no evidence to support your claim. Your body doesn't care--sugar is sugar. Replacing one form for another has no impact on health.
> 
> The Health Effects of High Fructose Syrup
> 
> My wife is a physician and her undergraduate was in nutrition and food science, so this is often our dinner-time conversation.
Click to expand...


Princeton University - A sweet problem: Princeton researchers find that high-fructose corn syrup prompts considerably more weight gain


----------



## caoclan

ChristianTrader said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> 
> We watched the documentaries "Forks over Knives" and "Food, Inc." Forks over Knives was related to the CNN special, which I referenced in the OP, but was more extensive. We watched Food, Inc. last night, and that made quite the impression with me as well. Has anyone else seen these docs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique) « Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet
Click to expand...


Thank you for this link. I am wading through it a little at a time. It seems to me, at the end of the day, we just have to go with what makes sense to us. As we know within the reformed camp, everyone has a presupposition, there is no neutral ground. Some people can look for information to suit their thesis, even if they don't even know it.

Side note: I have lost nearly 10 lbs in about three weeks of eating a similar, but not exact, diet as the Forks over Knives featured. It has not been a horrible experience, either. But I can't wait to have some local grass-fed beef!


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## Peairtach

Veggies can kill too, if they are diseased or are treated with certain carcinogenic chemicals.

Is there any evidence that vegetarians live longer or have happier lives?


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## kvanlaan

Oh my. We have done a lot of research on this as well, since we had a daughter who had a number of food allergies and lived with incredible levels of environmental pollutants (in China for 11.5 years). I can tell you that from what I have read (and I am not full-blown Weston A Price, but love Nourishing Traditions) and from what I saw (with our daughter), much of the food we get at the supermarket is quite near the bottom of the food chain and some can be downright toxic.

I don't have the time to fully explain it (I am at work), but the relationship between soil depletion, in terms of organic matter, and nutrient changes in veggies resulting therefrom, etc. (chemical fertilizers notwithstanding), even in the last 50 years, is quite interesting. I don't care for the certified organic industry, but I can see a night and day difference in the food we produce from our little farm (and we are poor farmers indeed) and what we buy in the stores. An egg from one of our pastured hens compared to a battery hen egg from Walmart is really a different thing altogether. And bacon from the hogs actually goes bad after 7 days or so in the fridge vs weeks for a 'normal' package from the store. Sorry, but I like food that rots.

We eat what we grow, or buy from those who we know, for the most part, and hope we can do more of it as the years go by.



> Is there any evidence that vegetarians live longer or have happier lives?



None. In fact, there is significant empirical evidence to the contrary. To whit: where there is vegetarianism, there is no bacon. And everyone knows that where there is no bacon, there is no happiness.


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## JBaldwin

On the high fructose corn syrup vs. sugar, etc. discussion. I discovered when I was teaching biology (and you can find this in any biology book that shows the chemical configuration for various types of sugar--just double-checked) that even though the chemical equation is the same for all types of sugar, glucose, galactose, fructose, etc., the way the sugars are formed in their chemical chain is very different, and that determines how it breaks down in the body. That's why they have different names. If they were the exactly the same, they would have the same name. 

There is a difference, and if you follow the money and look at the people who are promoting high fructose corn syrup and other types of processed sugars, they are the same indivudals who are making tons of money off these processed products.


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## TimV

Kevin that remark about soil depletion is good. Even virgin soils are often depleted of certain very important nutrients. Adding fertilizers like calcium will give watermelon a longer shelf life, for instance, and we have the NT example of the gardener who asked the landlord to give the tree another chance after he dug in some manure. Also, I firmly believe one reason for the Sabbath rest every 7 years was in part to address that issue.


----------



## kvanlaan

You know, I like to read older (pre-1950's) farming books, and the idea of letting land lay fallow one out of every seven years was not completely dead at that point (though I think it was considered impractical). There is also some stuff by a gent named Eric Sloane who wrote in the 50's (more a gentleman farmer than anything else) who really got into some of the nutrient deficiency issues (albeit anecdotally, for the most part). The level of humus even in the 1950's was quite thin compared to the time when virgin forests made up a large part of the country (which is not surprising) but not too long before then (maybe turn of the century), composted manure on the fields (from pastured cows, not feed lot cattle) was the norm, as well as an appreciation for lower planting densities ("an overplanted field makes a rich father, but a poor son") and more of an attitude of harvesting the byproducts of an ecosystem, instead of a monoculture spread over hundreds of acres. Joel Salatin is still a large proponent of this attitude, and it is good to see it coming back.

I know we always see pictures of the 30's dustbowl farms and think that that was the norm, but that was the equivalent of stripmining the soil of traditional grasslands to a large degree. If you don't take care of it, it dies.

Also, there are ways of planting and organizing one's land in a way that let's nature's systems help, instead of hinder. A bird will rarely fly more than 200 yards from cover in order to scavenge for bugs, but tell a farmer that his fields should be no more than 600 feet wide and he'll think you're an idiot. There are many ways to improve the lot of our soils and how we raise our animal protein, but they are tossed aside in favor of a more 'efficient' way of doing things.


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## Edward

SRoper said:


> There's no evidence to support your claim.



Anecdotal evidence is not proof, but I am more sluggish in the afternoon after an HFCS soft drink at lunch than I am after a sugared drink or an artificially sweetened one. So I'll stick to Throwback Pepsi, Coke Zero, and Dublin Dr Pepper (Mexican Cokes being widely available but too expensive in the local groceries). Feel free to stick to beverages which cause childhood obesity if you wish, but there isn't strong evidence either way at this point.


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## JBaldwin

TimV said:


> Kevin that remark about soil depletion is good. Even virgin soils are often depleted of certain very important nutrients. Adding fertilizers like calcium will give watermelon a longer shelf life, for instance, and we have the NT example of the gardener who asked the landlord to give the tree another chance after he dug in some manure. Also, I firmly believe one reason for the Sabbath rest every 7 years was in part to address that issue.



A pile of chicken manure composted a year or so does wonders for the garden, the taste of the veggies, and I'm sure is helping the soil. 

My grandfather (an Illinois farmer) was the only farmer in his county to rotate his crops in the 1940s. He had 4 fields and always left to one rest after three years of use. He had one of the most productive famrs in the county. He also planted alphalfa (a two year crop) with one of his crops to put nutrition back in the soil.


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## Peairtach

*Kevin*


> Is there any evidence that vegetarians live longer or have happier lives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None. In fact, there is significant empirical evidence to the contrary. To whit: where there is vegetarianism, there is no bacon. And everyone knows that where there is no bacon, there is no happiness.
Click to expand...


Amen. What a privilege to be born into the New Covenant Israel, rather than the Old Covenant Israel.

As our brother Peter said about preparatory legislation in Moses:


> Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?(Acts 15:10, ESV)


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## TimV

It's a fun subject. I did 100 acres of melons one year, and lost half the crop to "internal collapse" which came from a deficiency of calcium, magnesium and boron. Fortunately they came in early and there was a profit, but if I'd known in advance I could have struck it very nice indeed. The next year I added a commercial fertilizer combining all three, and it worked. But I also did a test using gypsum from a farm about 50 miles away and that worked as well as the commercial fertilizer. None of those three are organic, but that's just a buzz word anyway.

The point I found interesting after we sent some samples away for analysis was that cantaloupe in particular will not show any signs of deficiency at 1 percent calcium dry weight, but optimum shelf life requires 5 percent calcium. So by adding those things that a plant SHOULD have for it's best (and presumably our best) health takes experience, knowledge and a commitment to the future, as the pithy quote about about fathers and sons gets at. 

I raised all my kids on those principles, and while I've never been close to vegan or vegetarian or green or whatever there's no benefit it over reacting to the greenies by ignoring good diet and agricultural practices. I figure my sons turned out all right:
allmysons.jpg photo - Dan photos at pbase.com


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## jgilberAZ

Re: giving up wheat

The wheat the rest of us (oops, not me!) are eating is not the same wheat your grandmother ate.

What's being grown these days is a genetically modified hybrid that only grows about 2' high.

Basically, it's poison.

Check out: Wheat Belly


Re: the comment on the brain's fuel source

Why Fat is the Preferred Fuel for Human Metabolism

I know the whole "paleo diet" talks about evolution, which is bunk. But, you don't have to go back as many years as they think in order to determine that the modern diet is fundamentally flawed. You only need to go back a hundred years, or so. I prefer the "ancestral diet" term rather than paleo. ie, what my ancestors ate a thousand years ago, before scientists started tinkering with foods and diet.


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## TimV

Your ancestors a thousand years ago were old, dying men at age 50.


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## jgilberAZ

They may have died at 50, but they weren't old men. They died young because of the lack of medical treatments, not because of diet. Studies have shown that they were healthier than us, on average.

Nutrition and Health in Agriculturalists and Hunter Gatherers



> The anthropological record of early man clearly shows health took a nosedive when populations made the switch from hunting and gathering to agriculture. It takes a physical anthropologist about two seconds to look at a skeleton unearthed from an archeological site to tell if the owner of that skeleton was a hunter-gatherer or an agriculturist.



Principles of Healthy Diets



> The discoveries and conclusions of Dr. Price are presented in his classic volume, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. The book contains striking photographs of handsome, healthy primitive people and illustrates in an unforgettable way the physical degeneration that occurs when human groups abandon nourishing traditional diets in favor of modern convenience foods.



Ancient Dietary Wisdom for Tomorrow's Children



> It was when Price analyzed the fat soluble vitamins that he got a real surprise. The diets of healthy native groups contained at least ten times more vitamin A and vitamin D than the American diet of his day! These vitamins are found only in animal fats--butter, lard, egg yolks, fish oils and foods with fat-rich cellular membranes like liver and other organ meats, fish eggs and shell fish.




This is a "snippet" from Wheat Belly (link above):



> Flip through your parent's or your grandparent's family album and you'll be struck by how _thin_ everyone looks. The women probably wore size-four dresses and the men sported 32-inch waists. Overweight was something measured only by a few pounds; obesity rare. Overweight children? Almost never. Any 42-inch waists? Not here. Two-hundred-pound teenagers? Certainly not.
> 
> Why were the June Cleavers of the fifties and sixties, the stay-at-home housewives as well as other people of that era, so much skinnier than the modern people we see at the beach, mall, or in our own mirrors? While women of that era typically weighed in at 110 or 115 pounds, men at 150 or 165 pounds, today we carry 50, 75, or even 200 pounds more.



Much more at the "look inside" link on Amazon.



> Eliminate the wheat, eliminate the problem.


----------



## kvanlaan

Don't forget that the other thing different about wheat consumption today is that it is no longer soaked and fermented as it would be in a sourdough... which makes it much more easy to digest.

Also, for those who are in the city with limited growing space but a desire to move towards this organic path, it is amazing what you can do with raised beds and square foot gardening. Though we have lots of space now, my wife took in a few hundred pounds of tomatoes this year with only a few raised beds of rather small size (and they were not exclusively planted with tomatoes - we are also still overrun with kale!)


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## kvanlaan

I love this article (this is directed at militant Vegetarians/Vegans, not normal people who want to get off meat):

The Truth About Vegetarianism


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## kvanlaan

Josh, you're right. To qualify my previous statement:



> It is for those people who (completely irrationally) feel that meat does somehow not belong in their diet.



I'm just trying not to step on the toes of the brethren, though I can't understand why it would be an issue for anyone. I knew a Christian guy in China who did not eat pork or shellfish. How he can get there from Peter's meat-in-the-sheet vision is beyond me.



PS - Sometimes I have meat visions too. But they are largely fleeting, because the meat soon disappears.


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## TimV

Just because something's legal doesn't mean it's good for you. I'll skip the lard and bacon, although allow others that (gag) honor


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## kvanlaan

Tim, I can't believe you actually feel that way. I wish I could send you some of our bacon. It is truly heavenly - these are pigs fed some feed but spoiled milk makes up a large part of their diet, as well as forage when we let them out into the compost. The meat comes out slightly sweet and oddly, a good deal leaner than what you buy in the stores.

Further, an apple pie in our home is made with crusts of lard, ice water and flour (and just a dash of salt) and I challenge you to find a more delicious crust anywhere than from those few ingredients. Truly awesome.

As for gagging over the lard:







You can't argue with advertising!


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## kvanlaan

I love vegetarians - I have them for breakfast, lunch or dinner each and every day.


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## AThornquist

kvanlaan said:


> I love vegetarians - I have them for breakfast, lunch or dinner each and every day.



Organic or not, as long as the vegetarians were raised and slaughtered in humane conditions, that seems quite pleasant.


----------



## SRoper

ChristianTrader said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good old natural sugar, on the other hand, is linked with obesity and diabetes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you aren't thinking of HFCS? In my opinion, cane sugar is much better for you (or less bad, perhaps) than is HFCS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's no evidence to support your claim. Your body doesn't care--sugar is sugar. Replacing one form for another has no impact on health.
> 
> The Health Effects of High Fructose Syrup
> 
> My wife is a physician and her undergraduate was in nutrition and food science, so this is often our dinner-time conversation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Princeton University - A sweet problem: Princeton researchers find that high-fructose corn syrup prompts considerably more weight gain
Click to expand...


That's an interesting study. Thanks! Looks we'll have to rethink things. It is still true that added sucrose to the diet contributes to obesity and diabetes (and my wife says to add that obesity increases cancer risk) while aspartame has no known health effects.


----------



## caoclan

kvanlaan said:


> Josh, you're right. To qualify my previous statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is for those people who (completely irrationally) feel that meat does somehow not belong in their diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just trying not to step on the toes of the brethren, though I can't understand why it would be an issue for anyone. I knew a Christian guy in China who did not eat pork or shellfish. How he can get there from Peter's meat-in-the-sheet vision is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> PS - Sometimes I have meat visions too. But they are largely fleeting, because the meat soon disappears.
Click to expand...


This certainly has nothing at all from a religious position. We are free, absolutely free, to consume meat. I will in the future eat meat, preferably meat that does not come from a nasty feed lot, where the cows/chickens/pigs look like they are in more traffic than LA on it's worst day. But meat will be a _much_ smaller portion of my diet. I don't think Peter's vision had the animals shmushed in with hundreds of animals bathing in each other's feces, and illnesses, and the like. Nor did it involve super-over-processed foods that don't have ingredients found anywhere but a laboratory.


----------



## JBaldwin

Aspartame has no side effects??????? Look at this article...I tried to find you one that is not attached to the health food industry to show that it is not just the health nuts who are coming to these conclusions. 

Artificial Sweeteners Symptoms, Causes, Treatment - Aspartame: What are the cons on MedicineNet


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon

I did my HCG thing for 3 months, lost 56 pounds and have been steady at 205-209 (somewhere in there) after lifting weights for a while. I'm looking not bad now, but still need to lose about 15 pounds in my mid-section. One of the things we've done is incorporated a huge amount of healthy foods, vegan foods from farms in our area, and things from Wholefoods and a couple of MArkets that sell fresh meat, chicken, etc. We seem to be well balanced all around. I find that eating the vegan snacks - like coconut haystacks with cashew butter, or Banana Balls (rasins, bananas, almonds, ground up and made into a ball and rolled in sesame seeds, are great snacks that seem like I'm eating bad, but are really tastey and good. So I'm mostly over junk candy, though I like dark chocolate every once in a while. The Vegan foods in the categories we regularly eat now are really good. We tried vegan burgers, vegan chicken patties, etc. - not good. And we tried a few. Even some things I forgot how to pronounce the name and were soy based products - taste bad. So, thus far, eating organically healthy seems to be keeping me fit, which I like. I'm tackling the HCG diet one more time to try and get down to 190-195. So the snacking will also cease for a bit. But I'll be excited to have a banana ball after three weeks!


----------



## kvanlaan

caoclan said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Josh, you're right. To qualify my previous statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is for those people who (completely irrationally) feel that meat does somehow not belong in their diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just trying not to step on the toes of the brethren, though I can't understand why it would be an issue for anyone. I knew a Christian guy in China who did not eat pork or shellfish. How he can get there from Peter's meat-in-the-sheet vision is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> PS - Sometimes I have meat visions too. But they are largely fleeting, because the meat soon disappears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This certainly has nothing at all from a religious position. We are free, absolutely free, to consume meat. I will in the future eat meat, preferably meat that does not come from a nasty feed lot, where the cows/chickens/pigs look like they are in more traffic than LA on it's worst day. But meat will be a _much_ smaller portion of my diet. I don't think Peter's vision had the animals shmushed in with hundreds of animals bathing in each other's feces, and illnesses, and the like. Nor did it involve super-over-processed foods that don't have ingredients found anywhere but a laboratory.
Click to expand...


No, I wouldn't want to eat feedlot fecal-soup animals either. For a Christian to eschew pork and shellfish due to the 'wisdom' of Jewish dietary law is just a tad bizarre.

The current method of raising meat in a feedlot is poor stewardship indeed.


----------



## TimV

Actually it wasn't Jewish. Noah was told to take 7 cows along but only 2 pigs. Too bad a lion didn't eat them....


----------



## py3ak

Noah wasn't told to take any fish: case closed.


----------



## caoclan

[/COLOR]


kvanlaan said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Josh, you're right. To qualify my previous statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is for those people who (completely irrationally) feel that meat does somehow not belong in their diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just trying not to step on the toes of the brethren, though I can't understand why it would be an issue for anyone. I knew a Christian guy in China who did not eat pork or shellfish. How he can get there from Peter's meat-in-the-sheet vision is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> PS - Sometimes I have meat visions too. But they are largely fleeting, because the meat soon disappears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This certainly has nothing at all from a religious position. We are free, absolutely free, to consume meat. I will in the future eat meat, preferably meat that does not come from a nasty feed lot, where the cows/chickens/pigs look like they are in more traffic than LA on it's worst day. But meat will be a _much_ smaller portion of my diet. I don't think Peter's vision had the animals shmushed in with hundreds of animals bathing in each other's feces, and illnesses, and the like. Nor did it involve super-over-processed foods that don't have ingredients found anywhere but a laboratory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I wouldn't want to eat feedlot fecal-soup animals either. For a Christian to eschew pork and shellfish due to the 'wisdom' of Jewish dietary law is just a tad bizarre.
> 
> The current method of raising meat in a feedlot is poor stewardship indeed.
Click to expand...


Who is doing this according to Jewish dietary law? Certainly not me, who started this thread. I'm not Seventh-Day Adventist, lol.


----------



## kvanlaan

No, I'm not leveling that at you - it is a gentleman I know halfway around the world. But I know of others as well who say that 'well, maybe the Jews had it right...pork is such a filthy meat' and I just don't get that.

But there are ways to get 'clean' meat that are not frou-frou organic and $$$. 

I just don't understand the hate on bacon. Tim needs help. Let's try to get him the help he needs. Brussels sprouts, no problem - hate 'em. But bacon?


----------



## TimV

I raised my sons on an OT diet. Lean and healthy. No pig or road kill or maggots


----------



## VictorBravo

TimV said:


> I raised my sons on an OT diet. Lean and healthy. No pig or road kill or maggots



I imagine they had a decent helping of grasshoppers in the lean times before harvest, right?


----------



## py3ak

VictorBravo said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> I raised my sons on an OT diet. Lean and healthy. No pig or road kill or maggots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine they had a decent helping of grasshoppers in the lean times before harvest, right?
Click to expand...


I was wondering how pigeon salad sandwiches went over at picnics.


----------



## JoannaV

Some modern Jewish scholars like to insist that the _only_ reasons for the OT laws were food safety and the like. And that _the_ reason for the Sabbath is the physical need for rest. Etcetc. But this is not true, as we know 

I was born into a family which avoided unclean meats, and I certainly grew up healthy enough. I still can't force myself to like most shellfish, but crab cakes are pretty nice and bacon is yummy and guess what, I'm still healthy enough  (Crispy bacon is disgusting though, eugh, even the smell, bleh. Hate how all the restaurants spoil their burgers by adding bacon.)

So can you get old-fashioned wheat any more, or is it all 2' tall nowadays?


----------

