# Can we sin...



## a mere housewife (Mar 30, 2004)

I had a dream the other night that I was on the PuritanBoard, reading a refutation by one of the members of someone's arguments. He summed it all up by denouncing the person as a &quot;vacant seat.&quot;

I woke up laughing at that point. But that made me think more about dreams, where they come from (vacant seat??) and what as Christians we ought to think about them. My main question is this: Can we sin in our dreams? Sometimes in our dreams we do things we know are wrong: for instance, in one of my dreams, I fought with and even wounded my husband because he wouldn't let me sing around the house (I guess my subconscious is still deeply troubled about my husband's lack of enthusiasm for my voice; though personally, I've gotten over it). I knew this was wrong in my dream, but I did it anyway. There are many other instances where I have done things I knew were wrong in my dreams. I feel when I wake up all the guilt of having done them. It seems that in my dream, I did have a choice because I knew it was wrong. Was that sin?


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## sundoulos (Mar 30, 2004)

Some of our dreams are our subconscious thinking rising to the surface. Some dreams may be the work of tormentors (aka demons). Other dreams may (and here is where I may get shot  ) be from God.

In those dreams arising from our subconscious thinking, we definately can sin. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Sometimes we suppress our thoughts at the conscious level. 

I have often awakened in horror by a dream in which I was acting contrary to godliness and immediatley gone to God in prayer. We may not like to admit we are capable of doing those things about which we dream, but the heart is desparately wicked and needs to be continually brought into conformity with the will of God.

I also find that as I walk in the Spirit and keep in close fellowship, abiding in Christ, the rarer those sinfull-type dreams occur.

I hope this helps.


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## mjbee (Mar 30, 2004)

Heidi, not long ago I murdered my 87-yr-old Aunt Marie in a dream. I have no desire to do that. I felt horrible about that dream for days. Where do those things come from? It's not from some &quot;subconscious&quot; wish. That's Freudian psychology, which is worse than sorcery. Ignore those stupid dreams. They don't mean anything. People who are sleeping well never even remember their dreams. Perhaps you are going through something in your life which is making your sleep difficult. Perhaps exercising during the day and eating better will help. Just a thought.
Melissa


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## sailorswife (Mar 31, 2004)

I think we can sometimes sin when we are dreaming. That is my personal experience at least because often when I dream it is like I know I am dreaming and can make myself wake up if I don't like what is going on, but sometimes I don't choose too. I also believe that Satan can tempt or &quot;attack&quot; us in dreams. I say this from personal experience also because I went through several months of having some really terrible nightmares and or dreams were I was doing terrible things. Once I started praying that I wouldn't have such bad dreams they seem to stop. I still dream a lot but they are usual just weird now, not horrible.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 31, 2004)

Dear Heidi,
Don't be tempted into cataloguing your sins as if sin is dealt with on some divine accounting worksheet. Some folks get to the end of the day and try to remember every sin they committed or may have committed that day and only by confessing each sin will God forgive them.

1st John 1:9 tells us that after realizing that we are sinners that our agreement with God about our sinfulness is an indication that Christ's finished work of forgiveness applies to us as well.

In other words Heidi, we are all sinners, whoever says he is not is a liar. Our forgiveness comes from the completed work of Christ on the cross, not in our anything we do. 

Discovering sin in our lives whether real or dreamed is a sign that the Father has called us, that Jesus has reconciled us to the Father and that the Spirit is applying salavation to our lives.

Your question and tenderness of heart is the symptom of a conscience made tender by Christ's spirit within you. You are being transformed, you are being set apart, you are finding the mind of Christ more and more.

Whether we can sin in a dream is moot for it doesn't make us more sinful.

God sent His Son into the world to save sinners of which I am chief&quot;&quot;


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 31, 2004)

[quote:ff9c1a8b95][i:ff9c1a8b95]Originally posted by maxdetail[/i:ff9c1a8b95]
Dear Heidi,
Don't be tempted into cataloguing your sins as if sin is dealt with on some divine accounting worksheet. Some folks get to the end of the day and try to remember every sin they committed or may have committed that day and only by confessing each sin will God forgive them.

1st John 1:9 tells us that after realizing that we are sinners that our agreement with God about our sinfulness is an indication that Christ's finished work of forgiveness applies to us as well.

In other words Heidi, we are all sinners, whoever says he is not is a liar. Our forgiveness comes from the completed work of Christ on the cross, not in our anything we do. 

Discovering sin in our lives whether real or dreamed is a sign that the Father has called us, that Jesus has reconciled us to the Father and that the Spirit is applying salavation to our lives.

Your question and tenderness of heart is the symptom of a conscience made tender by Christ's spirit within you. You are being transformed, you are being set apart, you are finding the mind of Christ more and more.

Whether we can sin in a dream is moot for it doesn't make us more sinful.

God sent His Son into the world to save sinners of which I am chief&quot;&quot; [/quote:ff9c1a8b95]

Max,
Not that I disagree with your premise; practically, It is applicable. However, the harmony of scripture calls for something more balanced. For instance, believers are exhorted to 'confess your sins, one to another', and [your mentioning of 1st. John] '...if we confess...'. Would it be incorrect for the believer to NOT follow these scriptural commands? Confession is good for one's soul. It is evidence of fruit, evidence of our spirit bearing witness w/ Gods spirit. Not that confessing adds to the justification, we know it doesn't! But surely, the exortations are there for our well being. Also, why would these commands be given if in fact theyy were not meant to be taken literally?

Example: How is it that we are to pray for each other or how shall the elders 'lay hands' if no one confesses illness [sin]?

Have I misunderstood you brother?

Also, I always suggest, prior to turning in for the night, praying over one's sleep, that God would guard our thoughts etc.

My 2 cents

spb

[Edited on 3-31-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Saiph (Mar 31, 2004)

*On Dreams*

Consider Job 33 14-20 

For God speaks in one way, 
and in two, though man does not perceive it. 
In a dream, in a vision of the night, 
when deep sleep falls on men, 
while they slumber on their beds, 
then he opens the ears of men 
and terrifies them with warnings, 
that he may turn man aside from his deed 
and conceal pride from a man; 
he keeps back his soul from the pit, 
his life from perishing by the sword. 
&quot;Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed 
and with continual strife in his bones, 
so that his life loathes bread, 
and his appetite the choicest food.


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 31, 2004)

Maxdetail,
I thought your post was very good; and I am in agreement that we shouldn't look TOO hard for sin (like in our dreams).

I believe Scott may have misunderstood your post as giving a blanket summary of our whole doctrine of confession, but I think you were trying to simply comfort a very-tender-conscious Housewife, so you were simply applying what was needed to HER situation.

And to the Housewife herself I say,
Yes, I think we can and do sin in our dreams. Why? Because we have a fallen sinful human nature and nothing in our flesh is pure. Our thoughts are polluted, our motives are tainted, our desires are impure, and even in our dreams that fallen nature shows itself.

I certainly would not advocate beating yourself up over it, or even giving it a smidgeon (sp) of emphasis in your life, except that it should drive you to appreciate the salvation wrought us by our Savior.

I have had many VERY sinful-type dreams, and yes, some have even plaqued me for days. I am disgusted with myself! Whenever I look inside to &quot;see how I'm doing&quot; all I see is sin, sin, sin. Praise be to God that our salvation is not contingent on our own personal &quot;progress&quot; but on the finished work of Christ on a cross!

And, too: even my dog had dreams! His little feet used to twitch, his ears and eyes would move, and he would occassionally even bark. Talk about cute!  But I relate that story to you to say that I'm not convinced that there is anything particularly &quot;human&quot; about dreaming, and that perhaps its not the place where we &quot;work out what's inside&quot; that its commonly thought to be.


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## a mere housewife (Mar 31, 2004)

Thank you very much everyone.

In reading over all the different posts, the sense I get is that what is showing up in my dreams is original, not actual sin. Basically, it is not as if I actually did wound my husband-- or as if that is even what is at the bottom of my heart (consciously, violence is simply not my particular struggle); but as when temptations enter our minds, it is just showing up that I am susceptible to this sin, because I am a sinner. So I can confess it to God as the Psalmist did, as evidence I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me; but I don't need to confess the act of sin itself, as if it was actually performed by me, and is between me and God as a conscious, deliberate sin would be. Is that a fair summary?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 31, 2004)

Scott,
Thank you for your good questions.
The basis of forgiveness is probably a discussion for another thread. I was just trying to make the point that our sins are forgiven in the finished work of Christ.

I'm still trying to wrestle these truths to the ground and here are the questions that must be asked.

1. Does 1 John 1:9 refer to our confession at the time of our regeneration or does it speak of a practice that is ongoing?

2. If it is ongoing, then are our sins left unforgiven if we neglect to confess them?

3. This is related to the line from the Lord's prayer - forgive us our tresspases as we forgive those who trespass against us. Is Jesus saying that we cannot be forgiven if we don't forgive others? Certainly not, that would make us the agent of forgiveness. It means rather that because we are forgiven, we are free to forgive others.

But returning to the subject of dreams - my pastor's daughter told me she had a dream of me last week. She dreamt that I was a kidnapper who stole children and sold them on the black market.

I must admit, that I am more troubled by HER dream than any I have ever had. Ewwwww! What is there about me that would make someone dream that? It's humbling and haunting.


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## a mere housewife (Mar 31, 2004)

MaxDetail:

I don't think it is likely that she would have told you her dream about the black market if you were at all the kind of person who inspired that. She probably told you because it is so ridiculous. That's why I wonder if what I dream is not necessarily even a reflection of what is really &quot;in my heart&quot; in the sense that often I dream about sins that I don't consciously struggle with (and the ones that are my biggest conscious struggles are surprisingly absent from a lot of my dreams). I don't quite understand where all these things come from, but I'm sure that the dreams we have about other people are equally as unpsychologically accurate, even as regards our own feelings/impressions about them, as our dreams about ourselves.

Thanks very much for your thoughts on this, by the way. I guess the guilt is the most troubling thing-- whe you feel as if God counts the dreamed sin as if you had actually done it.

[Edited on 3-31-2004 by a mere housewife]


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## Gregg (Mar 31, 2004)

Pvt. dreams of one day not having to scrub pots and pans in the scullery of the base mess hall.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 31, 2004)

I guess the bottom line is that the scripture is very clear on our solution to guilt but we should leave the dreams for the poets to solve. 

Blessings!


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## a mere housewife (Mar 31, 2004)

[quote:36855ae97e]
Pvt.  dreams of one day not having to scrub pots and pans in the scullery of the base mess hall. 
[/quote:36855ae97e]


He won't make it unless he stops repeating the freshman class


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## sundoulos (Mar 31, 2004)

I think we generally know when we are &quot;in control&quot; in/of a dream. There are things we do in our dreams that we know are reflections of who we really are, the manifestation of supressed desires. Those are the ones in which our thoughts are sinful. 

Satan also can torment us in our dreams. When one desires to live a godly life and practices the Christian life in such a way as to honor God, to love Him with all our strength, mind, soul, our dreams may reflect a spiritual conflict.

MAX:

Forgiveness of sins and cleansing from sins is both final (eternal) and on-going (in time). 1 John 1:9 is to be practised on a continuing basis. Sin always comes between us and God, marring our fellowship with him. Confession of known sin is met by forgiveness (in time) and cleansing from all unrighteousness (including unknown sin).


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 31, 2004)

In the same way we are :
Being saved, are saved and will be saved, we are also being forgiven, are forgiven and will be forgiven upon the ultimate sanctification, in Heaven.

The 1st John passage is in the present tense if I am not mistaken.


Homologeo St# 3670
G3670
&amp;#959;&amp;#788;&amp;#956;&amp;#959;&amp;#955;&amp;#959;&amp;#947;&amp;#949;&amp;#769;&amp;#969;
homologeo&amp;#772;
hom-ol-og-eh'-o
*Present subjective active tense
From a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056; to assent, that is, covenant, acknowledge: - con- (pro-) fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.


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## exscentric (Mar 31, 2004)

Humm, dreams are something we can't control but it can be sin - - Satan can get to us in our dreams - how? It's our mind, not his. He can only tempt our awakened mind if we allow our minds to wonder into sin. 

Sounds like &quot;the devil made me do it&quot; doctrine 

Heard an explaination of dreams once that made a lot of sense and have tried it multiplied times and it seems to have some valididy.

When you wake up go over your dream, what it was etc. then try to verbalize it as if you were trying to explain it to someone from another planet - someone that doesn't know anything about our planet. Explain in great detail. The first few times it will not make a lot of sense but soon it will start to make sense to you - normally dreams are an expression of what is going on in your life in a real weird way.

Might I say also that some of you people have some mighty weird dreams - how in the world do you sleep with yourselves? 
:bigsmile:


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## pastorway (Mar 31, 2004)

A few pointers:

If you are saved - 

Satan cannot get inside your head or control your thoughts.

Dreams may reveal the truth that we are sinners, but we cannot sin in an unconscious state.

Along the same line there, sin is a matter of the will, so you cannot exercise your will (thereby committing sin) while unconscious. 

Dreams do not tell us what is in our heart anymore than they reveal what we would do in a given situation. I know this is true because in my dreams I have been known to fly! And I am scared of heights. So I would not fly even if I had the ability! (Another way to think about it - if I fly in my dreams I am breaking the Law of Gravity. That does not mean I have actually broken the Law of Gravity though, it just means I dreamed about it!)

Phillip

[Edited on 4-1-04 by pastorway]


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## a mere housewife (Mar 31, 2004)

Thanks, PastorWay


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## exscentric (Apr 1, 2004)

Forgot to mention in relation to the info I gave, some in research feel that dreams are related to the transferring of short term memories (those from the day) to long term memory thus this might indicate the thought that dreams reflect your current situation/life.


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## Saiph (Apr 1, 2004)

Pastorway:

Please give me some Scriptures backing the following statements.


[quote:c1b952b694]
If you are saved - 

Satan cannot get inside your head or control your thoughts. 

Dreams may reveal the truth that we are sinners, but we cannot sin in an unconscious state. 
[/quote:c1b952b694]

I have been trying to understand these things and have found no comfort in God's word. I would love to believe the two propositions you set forth.

I believe a Christian can be subjectively influenced, and manipulated by demonic entities.


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## Saiph (Apr 1, 2004)

What is the difference between &quot;demonic posession&quot; and &quot;demonic opression&quot; when it comes to subjective influence ? ?

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Wintermute]


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## pastorway (Apr 1, 2004)

Good questions Mark.

First the d.evil is a fallen angel, correct?

Where would we ever get the notion that angels can read minds? Yes they can oppress us (affecting physical circumstances around us) and put things before us that will tempt us, but that does not mean they are omnipresent or omniscient. They are created beings with limitations.

When we are tempted the Bible is clear that the temptation originates in our own fleshly desires. 

[quote:d1b1dc60ff]James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.[/quote:d1b1dc60ff]

So when we are tempted something has drawn the attention of our fleshly desires and enticed us. How does the d.evil and his angels do this? The lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:15-17).

He does not inject these into our thoughts, they are already there in our hearts and must be mortified. So fighting temptation is not fighting the d.evil, it is fighting with self! That is why in the battle for obedience we are told to resist the d.evil and he will flee and also to deny and even crucify self daily.

Now then, we do have many illustartions of what demons can do to those who are not saved. They can possess them, inhabit and control their bodies. This would involve manipulating emotions and thoughts. But remember that we are talking about people who have not been saved. 

We who are saved have been given a new heart and the mind of Christ. We are possessed of the Holy Spirit, so to speak, indwelt, a purchased possession of Jesus Christ.

I cannot find any logical or Biblical explanation as to why or how the d.evil could encroach upon what belongs to Christ and is sealed with the Holy Spirit. 

Look at Job. He was being attacked by the d.evil - that is oppression my friend! But was the d.evil in his mind? Only as he seized upon the bad counsel given by Job's friends!!! The d.evil did not put despair in Job's thoughts. No. He tormented him physically and the despair came naturally to a feallen man who was short on faith! But no, the d.evil was not in him or directing his thoughts. God limited what the d.evil could do to Job because job had faith - he belonged to God as a purchased possession.

So meditate on Job, and check out David as he wrestled with his thoughts. He did not blame the d.evil. He put the blame where it was due - &quot;Against You only have I sinned.&quot; Who had done the sinning? David had. Against Whom? God. Where was the d.evil in this arrangement? No where. We do not need the d.evil to have evil desires! We cannot say that the &quot;d.evil made me do it.&quot; No, when we are tempted we have decided to indulge our fleshly desires. No d.evil there, just depravity!

I do not believe that the d.evil goes around whispering in people's ears. No. He is going around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. But we are told not to fear the one who can kill the body, but to fear the One who can destroy the body and soul in hell! The d.evil is a defeated foe who is overrated. We should not just ignore him, but we should remember that if we resist him he must flee! Christ has already crushed his head!

Hope that helps.
Phillip


[Edited on 4-1-04 by pastorway]


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## Saiph (Apr 1, 2004)

I hope you are right.

I would like to believe demons cannot inhabit a believer.

I would add to your post that my implication that a demon could read the mind of a human at any given point in time would not necessarily make them omniscient. They would have to be able to know all thoughts, and all knowledge, past, present, future, and eternally to be omniscient.

My goal is not to find reasons to blame Lu.cifer or any of his minions for my actions. I know the flesh is ultimately to blame. 

Job does seem to imply that the fallen ones can only seek to devour the children of light through providence and not posession. Lu.cifer did have to ask God for permission after all.

Thanks.



[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Wintermute]


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## BobVigneault (Apr 2, 2004)

I agree with Pator Way that demons (and angels) cannot read minds or possess (demonize?) a believer. 

However, an angel is extremely intelligent, most likely forgets nothing, understands human nature, mental illness and medicine. An angel knows science and politics and can set up intricate schemes taking years and generations to pull off. It knows chemistry, geography and our observed weaknesses.

Furthermore they are capable of class B miracles, that is, wonders involving matters of probability. A miraculous catch of fish is a class B miracle - it is improbable but not impossible. Class A miracles are of course impossible feats and only God can perform them.

Bottom line, we are no match for a 'one on one' encounter with an angel. The battle is a battle of truth that we fight using Sola Scriptura.

My what a diversely faceted thread Heidi has unleashed!


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## Saiph (Apr 2, 2004)

You and Phillip say this but what scripture backs it up. If we are to use Sola Scriptura as you say, then where does it say they cannot read our minds ? ?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 2, 2004)

I don't see where Scripture directly addresses the demonic and Satan reading minds or putting thoughts in our head. They would sometimes force people to say things but that certainly didn't require mind manipulation.

Here is the best argument I can find and it comes from Job.

God certainly knew the mind of Job but it seems apparent that Satan did not and could only 'observe' Job to see how he would act. &quot;Have you seen my servant Job?&quot;

When Satan afflicted Job (with God's permission), again he didn't engage Job's mind but attacked those things that were external to Job's thoughts.

Have you had experiences that would seem to the contrary? Message me if you have. I've had experiences that I can't sort out, but I remain Sola Scriptura.


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## Saiph (Apr 2, 2004)

Job is the only example I can cling to.

What do you think of the passage where God sends out a deceiving demon ? ? ?
Can we always trust Him ??

The King James indicates God is the one lying: But we know God cannot lie.

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 

This is one of the most difficult of Scriptures to understand.

We must say that God was somehow ultimately upholding the TRUTH, by sending the lying spirit.



[quote:a64905bb67]
Q144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?

A144: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man,[1] and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own;[12] appearing and standing for the truth;[3] and from the heart,[4] sincerely,[5] freely,[6] clearly,[7] and fully,[8] speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice,[9] and in all other things whatsoever;[10] a charitable esteem of our neighbors;[11] loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name;[12] sorrowing for,[13] and covering of their infirmities;[14] freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces,[15] defending their innocency;[16] a ready receiving of a good report,[17] and unwillingness to admit of an evil report,[18] concerning them; discouraging talebearers,[19] flatterers,[20] and slanderers;[21] love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth;[22] keeping of lawful promises;[23] studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.[24]



1. Zech. 8:16 2. III John 1:12 3. Prov. 31:8-9 4. Psa. 15:2

5. II Chr. 19:9 6. I Sam. 19:4-5 7. Josh. 7:19 8. II Sam. 14:18-20

9. Lev. 19:15; Prov. 14:5, 25 10. II Cor. 1:17-18; Eph. 4:25

11. Heb. 6:9; I Cor. 13:7 12. Rom. 1:8; II John 1:4; III John 1:3-4

13. II Cor. 2:4; 12:21 14. Prov. 17:9; I Peter 4:8 

15. I Cor. 1:4-5, 7; II Tim. 1:4-5 16. I Sam. 22:14 17. I Cor. 13:6-7 

18. Psa. 15:3 19. Prov. 25:23

20. Prov. 26:24-25 21. Psa. 101:5 22. Prov. 22:1; John 8:49

23. Psa. 15:4 24. Phil. 4:8




[/quote:a64905bb67]




[quote:a64905bb67]
Q145: What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?

A145: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own,[1] especially in public judicature;[2] giving false evidence,[3] suborning false witnesses,[4] wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth;[5] passing unjust sentence,[6] calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked;[7] forgery,[8] concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause,[9] and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves,[10] or complaint to others;[11] speaking the truth unseasonably,[12] or maliciously to a wrong end,[13] or perverting it to a wrong meaning,[14] or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice;[15] speaking untruth,[16] lying,[17] slandering,[18] backbiting,[19] detracting,[20] tale bearing,[21] whispering,[22] scoffing,[23] reviling,[24] rash,[25] harsh,[26] and partial censuring;[27] misconstructing intentions, words, and actions;[28] flattering,[29] vainglorious boasting,[30] thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others;[31] denying the gifts and graces of God;[32] aggravating smaller faults;[33] hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession;[34] unnecessary discovering of infirmities;[35] raising false rumors,[36] receiving and countenancing evil reports,[37] and stopping our ears against just defense;[38] evil suspicion;[39] envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any,[40] endeavoring or desiring to impair it,[41] rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy;[42] scornful contempt,[43] fond admiration;[44] breach of lawful promises;[45] neglecting such things as are of good report,[46] and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.[47]



1. I Sam. 17:28; II Sam. 1:9-10, 15-16; 16:3

2. Lev. 19:15; Hab. 1:4

3. Prov. 6:16, 19; 19:5

4. Acts 6:13

5. Jer. 9:3, 5; Acts 24:2, 5; Psa. 3:1-4; 12:3-4

6. Prov. 17:15; I Kings 21:9-14

7. Isa. 5:23

8. Psa. 119:69; Luke 16:5-7; 19:8

9. Lev. 5:1; Acts 5:3, 8-9; II Tim. 4:6

10. I Kings 1:6; Lev. 19:17

11. Isa. 59:4

12. Prov. 29:11

13. I Sam. 22:9-10; Psa. 52:1

14. Psa. 56:5; John 2:19; Matt. 26:60-61

15. Gen. 3:5, 26:7, 9

16. Isa. 59:13

17. Lev. 19:11; Col. 3:9

18. Psa. 1:20

19. Psa. 15:3

20. James 4:11; Jer. 38:4

21. Lev. 19:16

22. Rom. 1:29-30

23. Gen. 21:9; Gal. 4:29

24. I Cor. 6:10

25. Mattt. 7:1

26. Acts 28:4

27. Gen. 38:24; Rom. 2:1

28. Neh. 6:6-8; Rom. 3:8; Psa. 69:10; I Sam. 1:13-15; II Sam. 10:3

29. Psa. 12:2-3

30. II Tim. 3:2

31. Luke 18:9, 11; Rom. 12:16; I Cor. 4:6; Acts 12:22; Exod. 4:10-14

32. Job 4:6, 27:5-6

33. Matt. 7:3-5

34. Prov. 28:13; 30:20; Gen. 3:12-13; 4:9; Jer. 2:35; II Kings 5:25

35. Gen. 9:22; Prov. 25:9-10

36. Exod. 23:1

37. Prov. 29:12

38. Acts 7:56-57; Job 31:13-14

39. I Cor. 13:5; I Tim. 6:4

40. Num. 11:29; Matt. 21:15

41. Ezra 4:12-13

42. Jer. 48:27

43. Psa. 35:15-16, 21; Matt. 27:28-29

44. Jude 1:16; Acts 12:22

45. Rom. 1:31; II Tim. 3:3

46. I Sam. 2:24

47. II Sam. 13:12-13; Prov. 5:8-9; 6:3


[/quote:a64905bb67]


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## BobVigneault (Apr 2, 2004)

We like the demons are culpable for our own actions and we are free to act according to our nature. God ordains all things using primary and secondary means. The demon was the one that was lying in accordance with it's deceptive nature. God selected that demon BECAUSE of it's lying nature. God is the ultimate cause of all things but not responsible or culpable for any sin.


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## pastorway (Apr 3, 2004)

We do know this for a fact:

God knows our hearts and minds, the intentions of our heart, and every word will will say before we say it. Ps 7:9; Phil 4:7; Rev 2:23; Ps 139:2, 4, 23-24

The d.evil can attack the body, the flesh, but no where do we see a verse that says he can read minds or influence thoughts from the inside out. Find one verse that so defines his ability in accusing us.

It isn't there because he can't do it.

Phillip


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