# Prophesy of Corinthian Church - was it just preaching?



## Eoghan (Jan 15, 2014)

John the Baptist was a prophet who never (?) prophesied in the sense of foretelling. He spoke prophetically though in his addresses to the crowds. Prophesy can be a form of proclaiming/preaching. I am not sure that we always are aware of that.

Spiritual gifts given at conversion in the charismatic sense arrive full blown. Spiritual gifts (or callings?) in the reformed sense may require some development. I was interested to read that teaching elders are to be respected for the effort and work involved! It is not a sermon knocked off in half an hour nor a message divinely given with zero study. 

If the prophesy is indeed "preaching" then Paul's exhortation to seek to prophesy makes sense. Likewise the judging which is almost a re-enactment of the Berean double checking of what Paul said. 

To interpret prophesy as foretelling which is evaluated without any OT repercussions for getting it wrong sets us along the path that Grudem has taken, drawing a distinction between accurate OT prophecies and NT fallible prophecies which need to be screened.


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## psycheives (Jan 15, 2014)

I was under the impression John the Baptist did prophesy about Jesus. He said another is coming, this other would take away the sins of the world, and described Christ and foretold future events.  Examples:

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


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## Eoghan (Jan 16, 2014)

Is this not exposition? John Gill spent 3 years reading Jewish literature so that he could speak authoritatively refute the liberal notion that Jewish Messianic hopes were a recent innovation. Moses saw His day and rejoiced. With Christ identified as the Lord of the OT - didn't Moses speak with Jesus face-to-face? Given this background I think John was a expounding and applying. When John sent his disciples to Jesus to ask if He was the Messiah, Jesus replies with a quote from Isaiah. That quotation suggests that John was reasoning about who Jesus was rather than receiving a prophetic word (?)

Interestingly Jesus quotes Isaiah but omits the "setting prisoners free" part. This suggests that John's query may have been a subtle question as to whether he would be released from prison. Jesus often answers not the verbalized question but the question behind it.


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## Loopie (Jan 16, 2014)

Well, if prophecy was just preaching, then were Philip's four virgin daughters preaching the gospel? Were they allowed to 'teach' a man? What about Agabus, who prophesied that Paul would be captured and bound in Jerusalem?

Acts 21:8-12 (NASB) 
8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. 
9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. 
10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 
11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" 
12 When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. 

I would also like to point out that if Agabus was a 'prophet' who was relating what the Holy Spirit had revealed to him, how comes Paul didn't listen to that authority (since Paul decided to go to Jerusalem anyways)? It seems that an argument could be made that a 'prophet' in the New Testament was not exactly the same as a prophet in the Old Testament, and that 'prophecy' in the New Testament was not necessarily as authoritative as it was in the Old Testament, which is why, when Paul talks about prophesy in the church, he tells believers to 'judge' what is said.

1 Corinthians 14:29-33 (NASB) 
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 
30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 

So I would agree that 'prophecy' in the New Testament is not predominantly foretelling the future, but that aspect of it still remained, as was the case with Agabus.


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## Free Christian (Jan 16, 2014)

Jesus said Himself and declared that John was a prophet indeed! Luke 7 vs 26 to 28.


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## One Little Nail (Jan 17, 2014)

Psyche makes a good point in that John, who came in the Spirit & Power of Elijah, did prophesy that Christ would be the
Sacrificial Lamb, so we have an account also that he was hearing God's voice directly & seeing visions John 1:33 ie Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, so in Luke 3:2 the word of God came unto John, that is he recieved The Prophetic Mantle of Elijah, we see that a direct message was given him to preach in a mighty Spiritual Anointing, forthtelling 
Prophecies regarding The Lord Jesus Christ , foretelling & Visions at least 3 different types of Prophetic Gifting.

The Early Church had Prophets,Silas,Agabus amongst others which was needed till the Completion of The Written Scriptures
the Corinthian Prophets were said to have been given Revelation from God as well as being able to see the secrets of mens hearts, also to teach & comfort the Saints

1 Corinthians 14:24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

1 Corinthians 14:29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

though they had to subject themselves to The Scripture

1 Corinthians 14:37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

I believe that from time to time The Lord sends Prophets or Prophecies into his Church, not the false heretical Pentecostal/Charismatic types but men like Huss who prophesied of Luther ie you cook this goose & in 100 years God will
raise a swan, men like Prophet Peden & South African Reformed Seer Van Rensburg The End Times Forecaster: Nelson Mandela and the Van-Rensburg Prophecies


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## Eoghan (Jan 17, 2014)

The problem is that the OT pattern is that once tested a man (or woman?) had the status of a prophet (foretelling). In Corinthians _every_ prophecy is to be "judged". Not only so but there are rules imposed - why because there was chaos! As Paul concludes God is not the author of confusion but peace. This last, to me suggests that the prophecy Paul is speaking of has more to do with the human spirit.

The alternative is that the quality of prophecy is mixed and that we should not expect 100%. This fits with the pronouncements of some from the charismatic movement, that perhaps only 20% of prophecies are genuine. By this 'device' Grudem et. al. dodge the question of contemporary prophesies undermining the canon.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 17, 2014)

Paul told them he wanted all of them to seek to prophesy, which would be odd if that were simply the preaching ministry of the church.


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## Tirian (Jan 17, 2014)

psycheives said:


> I was under the impression John the Baptist did prophesy about Jesus.



Amen, even jumping in the womb when Mary came into Elizabeth's presence. Not just a random kick - but a prophetic leap for joy!


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## iainduguid (Jan 17, 2014)

Loopie said:


> Acts 21:8-12 (NASB)
> 8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him.
> 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses.
> 10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
> ...



If you read the passage carefully, you will see that Agabus doesn't tell Paul _not_ to go to Jerusalem; he just tells him (correctly) what will happen when he gets there. It is the others who plead with Paul not to go (as we might ourselves do in similar circumstances).

I think the basic problem with both Grudem and Gaffin's argument is the unexamined presupposition that OT prophecy is always authoritative Prophecy, from which the argument becomes about whether the NT equivalent is authoritative Prophecy (Gaffin) or fallible prophecy (Grudem). Actually, the OT data is more complex: the seventy elders who prophesy in Numbers 11 do not have a message anyone writes down, nor does Saul when he prophesies. And when the Levites are leading in song in Chronicles they are "prophesying." This suggests that in the OT there is both Prophecy and prophecy, which leads to the possibility that in the NT there might still be both Prophecy and prophecy. Gaffin and Grudem both agree that Prophecy does not continue today; the question is only over the extent to which the Spirit guides and directs his people to speak and act. A broad definition of "prophecy", which would certainly encompass preaching but not be limited to it, would seem helpful here.


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## Eoghan (Jan 17, 2014)

Baroque Norseman said:


> Paul told them he wanted all of them to seek to prophesy, which would be odd if that were simply the preaching ministry of the church.



Paul also said he wanted them all to speak in tongues contradicting his earlier statement that they would not. An expressed wish or aspiration is not an agenda. Paul uses irony and hyperbole elsewhere - why not here. I am currently reading a commentary where David Prior makes the case that because Paul wanted all to prophesy it must have been possible. Having made this assumption he redefines prophesy in the NT as a word of exhortation. Something that can be fallible and learned. 

I would suggest the original assumption is unwarranted and the resulting 'logic' - nothing more than speculation. It also seems to have an agenda of fitting in with modern charismatic practice, which seems to seep into many modern commentaries who seem incapable of separating NT practice from the charismatic movement.

(I speak as one who would have described himself as charismatic several decades ago)


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## Loopie (Jan 17, 2014)

iainduguid said:


> I think the basic problem with both Grudem and Gaffin's argument is the unexamined presupposition that OT prophecy is always authoritative Prophecy, from which the argument becomes about whether the NT equivalent is authoritative Prophecy (Gaffin) or fallible prophecy (Grudem). Actually, the OT data is more complex: the seventy elders who prophesy in Numbers 11 do not have a message anyone writes down, nor does Saul when he prophesies. And when the Levites are leading in song in Chronicles they are "prophesying." This suggests that in the OT there is both Prophecy and prophecy, which leads to the possibility that in the NT there might still be both Prophecy and prophecy. Gaffin and Grudem both agree that Prophecy does not continue today; the question is only over the extent to which the Spirit guides and directs his people to speak and act. A broad definition of "prophecy", which would certainly encompass preaching but not be limited to it, would seem helpful here.



Actually, this sort of supports Grudem's argument that he makes regarding prophecy. The specific prophecy that Agabus made was understood incorrectly by the listeners. All that the prophecy said was that Paul would be bound, but the listeners concluded that this meant Paul should not go. Of course, Paul understood that it was God's will for him to go to Jerusalem. What this perhaps shows is that a NT prophet could receive some revelation, but could bring in some presuppositions/biases in his understanding of that revelation. That is exactly why everyone was to 'judge' what was said.

Quite simply, Grudem argues that OT Prophets were an 'office' of sorts equivalent to the authoritative office of NT Apostles. Grudem argues that in the NT prophecy was a gift, not an office like Apostle, Elder, and Deacon. Again, that is what I seemed to gather from Grudem's book.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 17, 2014)

He says to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. That is not irony.



Eoghan said:


> Baroque Norseman said:
> 
> 
> > Paul told them he wanted all of them to seek to prophesy, which would be odd if that were simply the preaching ministry of the church.
> ...


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## MW (Jan 17, 2014)

Once prophecy is removed from the flow of redemptive history one can make it look like anything. Consider the speech of Acts 3 and it is obvious that the very office of prophet foreshadowed Christ, and that all prophesy is redemptive-historical whether its ipsissima verba were finally embodied in the canon of Scripture or not. The Jews were children of the prophets. Prophecy continued so long as the transition period between old and new testaments was operative.

Prophecy requires its recipients to look forward to what God will do for their salvation; it presupposes redemptive history is still in process of development. As far as the New Testament is concerned, salvation has come in Christ. The ends of the ages have come upon us. We live in the dispensation of the fulness of times. The only further revelation the believer should be seeking is the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory for the final deliverance of God's people.

Using "prophecy" in the analogous sense of explaining and applying redemptive history by ordinary means is acceptable within certain limits, but it must be qualified that this is not prophecy is the proper biblico-theological sense of the term. God acts in redemptive history, and God speaks in order to interpret His actions. The cessation of prophecy is fundamental to biblical theology.


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## Mr. W (Jan 18, 2014)

It seems to me that the prayer and prophesying mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 11-14 are supernatural gifts given to some rather than "ordinary" activities (e.g. preaching, praying, singing etc.).


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## RamistThomist (Jan 18, 2014)

Mr. W said:


> It seems to me that the prayer and prophesying mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 11-14 are supernatural gifts given to some rather than "ordinary" activities (e.g. preaching, praying, singing etc.).



Right. If someone, for example, wants to make the claim that prophecy ceased, then it makes no sense to gloss "prophecy" as preaching (otherwise preaching has ceased!)


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## Eoghan (Jan 22, 2014)

Baroque Norseman said:


> Mr. W said:
> 
> 
> > If someone, for example, wants to make the claim that prophecy ceased, then it makes no sense to gloss "prophecy" as preaching (otherwise preaching has ceased!)
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Jan 22, 2014)

Eoghan said:


> Baroque Norseman said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. W said:
> ...


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