# The Church in America



## Brother John (Feb 20, 2009)

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Church in America. What are our strengths and weaknesses? What are the obvious sins we need to repent of? How can we as reformed christians direct the American church back to a more biblical foundation? How do we bring reformation to the American church so that she will be faithful to Jesus Christ? How do we be faithful and spread the gospel in our nation? And anything else I missed or any PBers want to bring up...


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## Theognome (Feb 20, 2009)

One word- repentance.

Theognome


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## Brother John (Feb 21, 2009)

Theognome said:


> One word- repentance.
> 
> Theognome


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Feb 21, 2009)

A few more sermons about sinners in the hands of an angry God would be a good start, no?


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## Marno (Feb 21, 2009)

Blev3rd said:


> Theognome said:
> 
> 
> > One word- repentance.
> ...



And another amen!


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## Theognome (Feb 21, 2009)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> A few more sermons about sinners in the hands of an angry God would be a good start, no?



Couldn't hurt. If ever a whole people hung over a fiery pit by a spider's thread, it's US.

Theognome


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## asc (Feb 21, 2009)

Blev3rd said:


> The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Church in America. What are our strengths and weaknesses? What are the obvious sins we need to repent of? How can we as reformed christians direct the American church back to a more biblical foundation? How do we bring reformation to the American church so that she will be faithful to Jesus Christ? How do we be faithful and spread the gospel in our nation? And anything else I missed or any PBers want to bring up...



if one is speaking in very general terms of the ? hundred million people that call themselves Christians in the US, are there any strengths in the American church? i only see an abundance of sin and heresy.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 21, 2009)

It feels to me like somewhere, Abraham is pleading the case - "if there are only a hundred congregations faithful to you Lord, will you still destroy her? Fifty? Ten? Five?" We're getting close to the bottom of the barrel here.


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## TimV (Feb 21, 2009)

Of the 200 odd nations on earth right now, which country has a higher percentage of orthodox Christians? Perhaps a half dozen?

I remember as a young man hearing Billy Graham say "If God doesn't judge America soon, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah" and thinking that he'd taken hyperbole farther than that particular teaching technique is meant to be taken.


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## larryjf (Feb 21, 2009)

Strengths:

Access to an abundance of Bibles
Access to theological books
Access to the internet where we can have discussions through the puritanboard and others, as well as have access to online theological works
Access to very good seminaries

Weaknesses:

Don't read our Bibles
Don't read theological books
Don't use the internet for God's purposes, but use it more for sin
These are, of course, generalities.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 21, 2009)

> Of the 200 odd nations on earth right now, which country has a higher percentage of orthodox Christians? Perhaps a half dozen?
> 
> I remember as a young man hearing Billy Graham say "If God doesn't judge America soon, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah" and thinking that he'd taken hyperbole farther than that particular teaching technique is meant to be taken.



Agreed, but to whom much has been given, much is expected. Looking at his comment in light of that, the hyperbole is somewhat lessened.


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## TimV (Feb 21, 2009)

> Agreed, but to whom much has been given, much is expected. Looking at his comment in light of that, the hyperbole is somewhat lessened.



True, and one can hardly accuse a Canadian of a parochial American view  But when the question of much being given comes up, have say Bibles and the Gospel more available here than in North Europe over the last 100 years?


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## Theognome (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm looking for the day when I can drive through San Fransisco and see more bumper stickers that say, 'Semper Reformanda' than Darwin fish and gay rainbows.

Theognome


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## jwithnell (Feb 21, 2009)

We need to encourage the men who are faithfully preaching the whole counsel of God's word. In history, it appears that God honors the pure preaching of his word. Prayer that he would raise up men to preach and prayer for the hearers of that word to respond would follow on the first point. I think people _like_ to hear the garbage that passes for preaching because they are suppressing the truth in ungodliness. Trying to improve the church in hopes that it will change the teaching and worship is backward. Change the preaching and the worship and teaching will follow.


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## Rich Koster (Feb 21, 2009)

One major problem with the Church in America is lack of discipline and cooperation between Elders. If you are rebuked for some heresy or conduct, you can just slide on down the street to the next brick building that finds whatever your issue is acceptable. If proper discipline, rather than American individualism was applied down through the ages, we wouldn't have all of this seeker sensitive and Word of Faith **** (and the like) spewing all over society and calling itself Christianity.


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## cwjudyjr (Feb 21, 2009)

The overall weakness is sin.

How I see this portrayed is the church ahs the world's view of being "joiners" rather than "called." As a previous post said if we disagree or don't like something (preference based) or don't want to face our own sin, we move to another church (organization) and join them, at least until we become uncomfortable and move again.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 21, 2009)

I rashly put a "thanks" on the post about Abraham and have thought about it some more. The fact that we so quickly point a finger (me included) at the condition of the country instead of looking inside our hearts is actually one of the reasons things are so bad. 



> How do we bring reformation to the American church so that she will be faithful to Jesus Christ? How do we be faithful and spread the gospel in our nation?



We are studying the life of Abraham, and the pastor pointed out these verses from Ezekiel 16



> 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.



We always think about Sodom going down because of the homosexuality (which was part of her sin), but God says they were guilty of being proud and selfish. This is what led to the abomination (homosexuality). I find that interesting and relevant to this discussion, because our nation's sins are similar. We have great abundance, our nation worships at the shrine of materialism. And what is God bringing down? Our economy. God brought down the economy of Sodom before he totally destroyed her. 

We, the church, are guilty of jumping right in there and being a part of it. Like Lot, we moved our tents close to Sodom and now we are living right in the midst of her. 

II Chronicles 7:14 comes to mind, "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." 

While I know that the USA is not a "christian" nation, we can still apply these verses to the church. I do believe that the strong influence of reformed thinking is what shaped this nation and kept it strong for such a long time. That, too, is our downfall. We think it will always be that way, so we are fat and happy and think we have need of nothing.


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## BJClark (Feb 21, 2009)

> I remember as a young man hearing Billy Graham say "If God doesn't judge America soon, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah" and thinking that he'd taken hyperbole farther than that particular teaching technique is meant to be taken.



God has already judged America, and she was found wanting..He just hasn't poured His wrath out upon her yet.


I believe we already have many Abraham's crying out to God..we need more men crying out for the people to repent..and to do away with their false God's and false religions..

I realize parts of revelation are directed at certain churches during that time, but as I read through it, I see how many of those same things apply to today's churches..

we have become a nation that calls good-evil, and evil-good..

We have a nation of churches who are 'rich' with worldly things yet dead spiritually, we have a nation filled with churches where pastors teach about a false God, they teach about a God that is to serve them, that he is there for our pleasure, not the other way around..that we are Here for His pleasure and to worship Him..they have created a god in their own imaginations, and done away with the God of the Bible..

We have become a nation who desires to push the one true God out of every aspect of life..they have no problem with false god's--they love their false god's the more the merrier...but they HATE the God of the Bible..They hate His commandments..but not all of them..some of them they are okay with..

these are the one's they hate..the don't mind the others, because they honestly do not understand them..they think they only apply to a person's physical actions..and the intent of the heart towards others--



> You shall have no other gods before me.
> 
> You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
> 
> ...




I used to wonder why, when I heard others speaking about "following Jesus' teachings" they missed or completely ignored the part of it being a heart problem..adultery starts in the heart, murder starts in the heart..but I know many miss it because they are blinded to it, and others miss it because they are not taught it..

I've noticed that some, when I point out the heart issue to them, they still reject it, and they get angry and claim "that is NOT what their God says" I have on a few occasions suggested they stop calling themselves Christian's then, because that IS what the God of the Bible says..they get angrier, but I know..it is not me they are angry at..it is God..they do not like what He says, and they reject it, and thus reject Him in their own anger that He is Holy and Just, and Righteous.

So it's not just that people need to hear we are sinners in the hands of an Angry God, but we need to be taught more that it's not the actions, but the heart of man that God judges..it's the intentions of heart..it's the thoughts that pass through our minds that God knows..that when we honor our parents with a smile on our face and resentment in our hearts..He see's that, we may not kill our brother but desire him to be killed, one may not commit adultery, but they think about it often..but we are a people that needs to repent..


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## JBaldwin (Feb 21, 2009)

To add to my earlier post, I think the remedy for the church is acknowledgement of individual and corporpate sin and repenting, but also turning to Jesus. 

We have lost sight of our Lord, and we do not know Him or love Him as we ought. We don't strive to see the world as God sees it. Instead (and I am speaking of myself, too), we look at the world through our theology, our viewpoint, our perspective, and we do not have God's heart. We judge others and fail to look at ourselves. 

Even as I type this, I realize how quickly my eyes are turned away from God and onto other things. When we have that burning passion to know Christ (as Paul did), when we love Him with all our hearts (as my the verses in my tag line say) we will love our neighbors as ourselves and the Gospel will go forth. When we are living the Gospel in our lives, the world can't help but see it and react. That is the only thing that will change this nation in my opinion.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 21, 2009)

Biggest weakness in my opinion:

Soteriology!

If we could get that straightened out it would be a big, big help in starting down the right (narrow) path.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Feb 21, 2009)

As a newcomer to the American Church let me offer my own  I am really speaking only for the circles I move in.
I see some beautiful and very practical things happening. People are very quick to pray for others- and they let them know they are praying for them. Never before had I been asked, "How can I pray for you this week?" until I moved here.
I also see some very practical helps given eg meals, assistance with getting things done, etc.
There is also a transparency. People admit their faults and confess their sins.
There is a recognition that we need to move away from the individualistic mindset of our generation.
These are all good things and may be needed more and more in the days that lie ahead.
I am concerned about the false teaching and the masses that follow these wolves. We must pray that our God will raise up men who will faithfully preach and teach the Word of God. We need to pray that God will draw more and more people to be attending churches where the Word is preached and Sacraments are rightly administered.
I also think that we who in truth profess Christ and are hearing solid teaching need to allow that Word to soak more and more into every area of our lives. We(especially me) need more love for Christ and more zeal for His cause.


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## Brother John (Feb 25, 2009)

Theognome said:


> I'm looking for the day when I can drive through San Fransisco and see more bumper stickers that say, 'Semper Reformanda' than Darwin fish and gay rainbows.
> 
> Theognome


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## asc (Feb 25, 2009)

TimV said:


> Of the 200 odd nations on earth right now, which country has a higher percentage of orthodox Christians? Perhaps a half dozen?



How about the flip side? 

Can you think of any other nation on earth that has more apostasy and evil being proclaimed in the name of Jesus? I can think of none. (ok, percentage-wise, there's the Vatican, but i think you get my idea).


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## TimV (Feb 25, 2009)

> Can you think of any other nation on earth that has more apostasy and evil being proclaimed in the name of Jesus? I can think of none. (ok, percentage-wise, there's the Vatican, but i think you get my idea).



Yes, every country that I've ever been to. Your hair would fall out if you knew what was being preached in places like Papua New Guinea, Africa, etc..and from what I hear things coming from European pulpits aren't any better.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 25, 2009)

Tim is right. American Christians seem to have adopted a Spiritual Noble Savage syndrome. A terrible amount of what is going on in the name of Christianity overseas is just awful theology. (I'm not accusing anyone here.). Just because they are 'there' and growing like wildfire does not imply they are sound. Just because they are being persecuted does not mean they are sound. (Please note: I'm not belittling the persecution that is taking place today. It is terrible. Our brothers and sisters are suffering. But, many of them are suffering theologically, too.)


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## Pergamum (Feb 25, 2009)

One high point is that we are still the biggest sending and spending nation on earth towards missions, and towards frontier missions.


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## Mushroom (Feb 25, 2009)

Just one more thing I'd mention is the fact that the 'soft' tyranny of non-confrontation has permeated the Church. The effeminzation of the culture has entered the Church to the extent that these false teachings are left unchallenged. When they are, the confrontation becomes the issue rather than the right or wrong of the argument. To call a spade a spade is deemed 'unloving'.

An easy field for wolves to prowl upon.


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## Knoxienne (Feb 25, 2009)

Brad said:


> Just one more thing I'd mention is the fact that the 'soft' tyranny of non-confrontation has permeated the Church. The effeminzation of the culture has entered the Church to the extent that these false teachings are left unchallenged. When they are, the confrontation becomes the issue rather than the right or wrong of the argument. To call a spade a spade is deemed 'unloving'.
> 
> An easy field for wolves to prowl upon.



I agree. I think the effeminacy in the Church you just spoke of is more dangerous to the Church than anything the heathen say or do.


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## ww (Feb 25, 2009)

In general we need to realize that the Church is to impact the Culture for Christ not blend in with the Culture. I truly believe the last 30 years of the Church being influenced by the Culture rather than influencing the Culture has taken its toll. Much of this is due to an overreaction to Fundamentalism. We can pursue Holiness without binding the conscience with man made rules and regulations.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 25, 2009)

whitway said:


> In general we need to realize that the Church is to impact the Culture for Christ not blend in with the Culture. I truly believe the last 30 years of the Church being influenced by the Culture rather than influencing the Culture has taken its toll. Much of this is due to an overreaction to Fundamentalism. We can pursue Holiness without binding the conscience with man made rules and regulations.



I agree. Last Sunday, we talked about sanctification in our Sunday school class, and one of the points made by the pastor was that we are supposed to be pursuing Christ. If we pursue holiness apart from Christ, we become legalistic. I think that is what has happened in a lot of the churches who still hold to the Scriptures. Somehow, in our attempt to stay true to God's Word, we have ceased to stay true to Christ Himself. 

Philippians 3:8-11 comes to mind--



> 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 25, 2009)

One of the biggest weaknesses of the church in the US is simply SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS instead of "Christ RIGHTEOUSNESS". Christ has merely become a buzz word. He isn't Lord and God of the universe he's "MY HOMEBOY" who helps me to "get my life right" and live better.


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## Brother John (Feb 25, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> One high point is that we are still the biggest sending and spending nation on earth towards missions, and towards frontier missions.



I pray we continue. I have read that other nations are now sending missionaries here, has anyone else heard of this?

Our churches should also begin focusing on domestic missions.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 25, 2009)

There have been missionaries coming to the US from Latin America for years. I have Nicaraguan, Honduran, and Argentine friends who have been working as missionaries in the States since the early 1990s.


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