# Isaiah 11--need help



## RamistThomist (Aug 4, 2007)

I have the whole chapter in mind, but I am focusing on these, particularly v.6.

6(J) The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9(K) They shall not hurt or destroy
in all(L) my holy mountain;
(M) for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

Ok, this can't be literal because that would make it too carnal and fleshly. So let's spiritualize it. We know from the rest of Scripture that Christians are referred to as "lambs" and sheep. Of course, Jesus is the good Shepherd, so that makes us all lambs and sheep. 

Wolves, of course, are false teachers. So in the kingdom, a time of prosperity will come when false teachers and Christians are reconciled. 

I actually had an amil-postmil guy tell me that this is what the text meant.


----------



## Herald (Aug 4, 2007)

> Ok, this can't be literal because that would make it too carnal and fleshly. So let's spiritualize it.



This is a presupposition that is going to skew your understanding of the text. I'm going to ask you a question before discussing this text. Is it wise to place a text in a specific construct (i.e. the text cannot be literal because it would be too carnal) before employing the first rule of hermeneutics which is observation?


----------



## A5pointer (Aug 4, 2007)

you may to be right looking for non-literal but allegorizing it is not the right step.


----------



## RamistThomist (Aug 4, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> This is a presupposition that is going to skew your understanding of the text. I'm going to ask you a question before discussing this text. Is it wise to place a text in a specific construct (i.e. the text cannot be literal because it would be too carnal) before employing the first rule of hermeneutics which is observation?



I agree with you, Bill. I was just joking in this. I was relaying an actual conversation.


----------



## Herald (Aug 4, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> I agree with you, Bill. I was just joking in this. I was relaying an actual conversation.



J - oops. I didn't notice the joke. My bad.


----------



## AV1611 (Aug 4, 2007)

Calvin:

6. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb. He again returns to describe the character and habits of those who have submitted to Christ. As there is a mutual relation between the king and the people, he sometimes ascends from the body to the head, and sometimes descends from the head to the body; and we have already seen that Christ reigns, not for himself, but for those who believe in him. Hence it follows that he forms their minds by his heavenly Spirit. But the Prophet’s discourse looks beyond this; for it amounts to a promise that there will be a blessed restoration of the world. He describes the order which was at the beginning, before man’s apostasy produced the unhappy and melancholy change under which we groan. Whence comes the cruelty of brutes, which prompts the stronger to seize and rend and devour with dreadful violence the weaker animals? There would certainly have been no discord among the creatures of God, if they had remained in their first and original condition. When they exercise cruelty towards each other, and the weak need to be protected against the strong, it is an evidence of the disorder (ἀταξίας) which has sprung from the sinfulness of man. Christ having come, in order to reconcile the world to God by the removal of the curse, it is not without reason that the restoration of a perfect state is ascribed to him; as if the Prophets had said that that golden age will return in which perfect happiness existed, before the fall of man and the shock and ruin of the world which followed it. Thus, God speaks by Hosea:

I will make a covenant with the beast of the field, with the fowl of the heaven, and with the creeping things.
(Hoseah 2:18.)

As if he had said, “When God shall have been reconciled to the world in Christ, he will also give tokens of fatherly kindness, so that all the corruptions which have arisen from the sinfulness of man will cease.”

In a word, under these figures the Prophets teach the same truth which Paul plainly affirms, that Christ came to gather together out of a state of disorder those things which are in heaven and which are on earth. (Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:20.) It may be thus summed up: “Christ will come to drive away everything hurtful out of the world, and to restore to its former beauty the world which lay under the curse.” For this reason, he says, that straw will be the food of the lion as well as of the ox; for if the stain of sin had not polluted the world, no animal would have been addicted to prey on blood, but the fruits of the earth would have sufficed for all, according to the method which God had appointed. (Genesis 1:30.)

Though Isaiah says that the wild and the tame beasts will live in harmony, that the blessing of God may be clearly and fully manifested, yet he chiefly means what I have said, that the people of Christ will have no disposition to do injury, no fierceness or cruelty. They were formerly like lions or leopards, but will now be like sheep or lambs; for they will have laid aside every cruel and brutish disposition. By these modes of expression he means nothing else than that those who formerly were like savage beasts will be mild and gentle; for he compares violent and ravenous men to wolves and bears which live on prey and plunder, and declares that they will be tame and gentle, so that they will be satisfied with ordinary food, and will abstain from doing any injury or harm. On this subject it is proper to argue from the less to the greater. “If Christ shall bring brute animals into a state of peace, much more will brotherly harmony exist among men, who will be governed by the same spirit of meekness.” And yet Isaiah does not mean that any are mild and peaceful by nature before they are renewed, but yet he promises, that whatever may have been their natural disposition, they will lay aside or conquer their fierceness, and will be like lambs and sheep.

And a little child shall lead them. This means that beasts which formerly were cruel and untameable, will be ready to yield cheerful obedience, so that there will be no need of violence to restrain their fierceness. Yet we must attend to the spiritual meaning which I noticed, that all who become Christ’s followers will obey Christ, though they may formerly have been savage wild beasts, and will obey him in such a manner, that as soon as he lifts his finger, they will follow his footsteps, as it is said that his people shall be willing. (Psalm 110:3.) Those who are not endued with this meekness do not deserve to be ranked among the sheep. Let us, therefore, permit ourselves to be ruled and governed by him, and let us willingly submit to those whom he has appointed over us, though they appear to be like little children. Besides, I think that the ministers of the word are compared to children, because they have no external power, and exercise no civil government over them.

A question arises, Do we find any persons who are meek, though they have not been tamed by the gospel? The Prophet appears to insinuate this, when he compares some men to sheep, and others to wolves and bears; and certainly among men who follow the bent of their natural disposition, we shall perceive an astonishing diversity. Some are mild and gentle, others are fierce and violent; but it is certain that all men are untamed till Christ subdues them by the gospel; all are swelled with ambition and pride before they are cured by this medicine. Many will be able to make a false and hollow profession of modesty and humility, but they will swell with inward pride. In short, where the Spirit of Christ is not, there will be no true meekness.


8. And the child shall play on the hole of the asp. He continues to illustrate the same sentiment, that when men have been brought into a state of favor with God, and have been cleansed from their depravity by the Spirit of regeneration, they will likewise be free from every hurtful disposition. There is no reason why men dread the danger or poison arising from the bite of serpents, but because they do not deserve that God should place every part of the world under their control. And, indeed, since animals are permitted to do injury even to children, this shows that the whole race of Adam has been stained with pollution from the very womb.

We must again observe the comparison which we stated, that those men whom a concealed poison led to deeds of violence will have their disposition changed, and will do no harm even to little children. Some men are openly fierce and cruel, (Psalm 140:3,) and others inwardly carry and cherish their malice like poison, (Psalm 55:21,) as David also describes them; for some men are more quick, and others are more slow, to manifest the desire of doing injury. Whatever they may have formerly been, he means that all of them must be cleansed from wickedness, both open and concealed, after having submitted to Christ. He means, also, that henceforth safety, which will reign everywhere, will be enjoyed even by those who have no kind of protection; so that they will freely venture to expose themselves to imminent dangers.


9. They shall not hurt. He now declares plainly, that men themselves, having laid aside the depravity which naturally dwells in them, will be inclined, of their own accord, to do what is right. He speaks of believers who have been truly regenerated to a new life, (Romans 6:4 for though in the Church many hypocrites full of wickedness were mixed with the elect of God, yet they are like the Ishmaelites, whom God will cast out at the proper time. We ought also to observe, as we are taught in Psalm 15:1, 24:3, that those only who follow righteousness have a settled residence in the temple of God, that they may dwell there for ever. It is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of the genuine members of the Church, that they are free from all desire of doing injury to others. Hence, also, we infer, that it is a remarkable gift of the Spirit of Christ, that men abstain from being evil-doers; for by nature, ambition, pride, cruelty, and avarice, always prompt them freely and voluntarily to commit acts of injustice.

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. With good reason does the Prophet add, that this invaluable blessing flows from the knowledge of God; for it abases all flesh, and teaches men to commit themselves to his trust and guardianship, and brings them into a state of brotherly harmony, when they learn that they have the same Father. (Malachi 2:10.) Although many, who have not yet been renewed by the Spirit of Christ, profess to have humanity, yet it is certain that self-love (φιλαυτίαν) reigns in them; for in all it is natural and so deeply-rooted, that they seek their own advantage and not that of others, think that they are born for themselves and not for others, and would wish to make the whole world subject to them, if they could, as Plato has judiciously observed. Hence arise fraud, perjury, theft, robbery, and innumerable crimes of this sort; and therefore there is no other remedy for subduing this lawless desire than the knowledge of God. We see how the Prophet again makes the government of Christ to rest on faith and the doctrine of the gospel, as indeed he does not gather us to himself (Ephesians 1:10) in another way than by enlightening our minds to reveal the heavenly life, which is nothing else, as he himself declares, than

to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. (John 17:3.)

As with waters that cover the sea. There is an implied comparison between the abundance of knowledge and that slender taste which God gave to the ancient people under the law. The Jews having been kept in the rudiments of childhood, (Galatians 3:23,4:3,) the perfect light of wisdom hath fully shone on us by the gospel, as was also foretold by Jeremiah:

They shall not every one teach his neighbor, and a man his brother, to know God; for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (Jeremiah 31:34.)

If this fullness of knowledge take possession of our minds, it will free us from all malice.

This passage also instructs us what is the character of the Church under Popery, where the light of doctrine is choked and almost extinguished, and the highest religion is made to consist in the benumbing influence of brutish stupidity. If we do not immediately possess full knowledge, we must advance from day to day, and make continual progress, (2 Peter 3:18,) and in such a manner that fruit may spring from that root. Hence it is evident how little progress the greater part have made in the school of Christ, seeing that fraud and robbery and acts of violence abound everywhere.


----------



## RamistThomist (Aug 4, 2007)

I didn't really need help. I was just illustrating how many are prone to spiritualize away the promises.


----------



## AV1611 (Aug 4, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> I didn't really need help. I was just illustrating how many are prone to spiritualize away the promises.



If you take it literally then you obviously do need help


----------



## RamistThomist (Aug 4, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> If you take it literally then you obviously do need help



This presupposes larger worldviews about the nature of creation, metaphysics (e.g., what can and can't be possible. Like reading Newtonian worldviews into the bible). 

Can I apply the same reasoning about the resurrection, too?


----------



## Herald (Aug 4, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> I didn't really need help. I was just illustrating how many are prone to spiritualize away the promises.




J - actually the title of your thread was confusing. In your title you wrote, "Need help."  That's why the responses were attempting to provide some insight.


----------



## RamistThomist (Aug 4, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> J - actually the title of your thread was confusing. In your title you wrote, "Need help."  That's why the responses were attempting to provide some insight.



My fault. Misleading title.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Aug 4, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> I didn't really need help. I was just illustrating how many are prone to spiritualize away the promises.



It's not about spiritualizing. We need to interpet the text according to it's genre. Isaiah is having visions. He's painting pictures for us of realities to come. When you understand the picture then you understand the truth being conveyed.


----------



## Casey (Aug 4, 2007)

Not really commenting on whether or not animals will go through an alteration of their natures in the new heavens and earth, I believe this is the key to the text:
*Lev. 26:21-22.* Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate.​Isa. 11 is a description of the peace that will be characteristic of the Messiah's reign.


----------

