# Puritans' emphasis on holiness leads to doubt?



## sotzo (Oct 3, 2007)

In reading Owens, Edwards, et al it is clear they has a very high view of holiness in the life of the believer...and rightly so as the Bible teaches the essential nature of holiness in the life of the believer.

While we know that faith without works is not saving faith (as James teaches). But, meditating upon whether our works are truly reflective of a saving faith can lead to grave doubt. Yet, in reading the Puritans, not only do they not shy away from the question...they actually use it as a benchmark to evaluate who is going to heaven. For example, Edwards in a sermon titled "Those Only who are Holy are on Their Way to Heaven" says:

"When the soul is molded and sanctified according to the image of God, the example of Christ, and the rule of the gospel, then it is holy and not else. Those who do not have this holiness are not in the way to heaven. Those who are not thus conformed to God, to Christ, and God's commands are not in the way to heaven and happiness...whatever hopes and expectations they may have they will never reach heaven to eternity except they alter their course, turn about and steer another course."

How do the Puritans square this with a doctrine of assurance? 

Is there an exegesis of the Puritans that should be used to understand what they mean by this sort of language or are they simply not afraid to doubt their status before God? After all, can anybody be saved if measured against Edwards' statements above?


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## VaughanRSmith (Oct 3, 2007)

In my (limited) reading I haven't really come across anything that goes further than 1 John does (except for Baxter, and he doesn't count  ).


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## MW (Oct 4, 2007)

sotzo said:


> How do the Puritans square this with a doctrine of assurance?



Conscience is central to Puritan practical theology and any assurance which by-passes it is really only a form of self-deception. Man has a capacity for reflex knowledge, and cannot contradict what he knows about himself, no matter how hard he might try to convince himself otherwise. Hence the Puritans insisted that assurance be sought in reality, by seeing the image of God renewed in the whole man. This is true fellowship, when we are partakers of God's holy nature.


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## sotzo (Oct 4, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> sotzo said:
> 
> 
> > How do the Puritans square this with a doctrine of assurance?
> ...



But _how much_ renewal must there be to get on the heavenly road Edwards describes in my post above? For example, along the lines of the reflex knowledge you mention, I have seen my affections go from worldly things to heavenly things...real affection, not contrived...it truly feels alien...same for my desire to obey God's law and worship. 

However, I don't love the lost like I should...I don't see the same magnitude of change in my heart on that front...nor do I see the same sort of magnitude of change when it comes to being at peace with the sovereignty of God in the face of evil / suffering. 

Yet, it still seems Edwards and other Puritans are teaching a very comprehensive holiness that must be present to see heaven...it almost sounds like a Roman Catholic view of salvation...that one really can't know if he is saved since the standard is God and he will ultimately judge.


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## MW (Oct 4, 2007)

sotzo said:


> But _how much_ renewal must there be to get on the heavenly road Edwards describes in my post above?



As soon as you try to quantify it I think you move from what the Puritans called evangelical to legal holiness. Its really a matter of the will or intention. Holiness is something that is "pursued." Here they would often speak about the great benefit of the covenant of grace -- justification, in which the person is accepted as righteous in His sight, and so the sincere endeavours of the believer after new obedience are pleasing to God because of the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to him. At this point they would even say that God accepts the will for the deed, and quote 2 Cor. 8:12.


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## fredtgreco (Oct 4, 2007)

The Practical Syllogism.


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## Dr Mike Kear (Oct 4, 2007)

"What is assurance? It is not any vocal or audible voice, or brought to us by the help of an angel or revelation. Assurance consists of a practical syllogism, in which the Word of God makes up the major proposition, conscience the minor, and the Spirit of God the conclusion. The Word says, ‘He that fears and loves God is loved by God;’ there is the major proposition; then conscience makes the minor, ‘But I fear and love God;’ then the Spirit makes the conclusion, ‘Therefore thou art loved of God;’ and this is what the apostle calls ‘the witnessing of the Spirit with our spirits, that we are his children,’ Romans 8 v 16." Thomas Watson, _A Body of Divinity_ (BOT, p. 251)


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 4, 2007)

The bent of the needle

(Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
who continues to sin has either seen Him or known
Him." 1 John 3:6

A trade, a course of sin--is inconsistent with a state 
of grace. The best saints have sadly miscarried as to 
particular actions; but he who shall judge of a man's 
spiritual state by particular acts, though notorious bad, 
will certainly condemn, where God acquits. We must 
always distinguish between some single evil actions,
and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or 
that particular evil action--but a continued course of 
evil actions--which denominates a man wicked. Just 
so, it is not this or that particular holy act--but a 
continued course of holy actions--which denominates 
a man holy. 

Every man is--as his course is. If his course is holy--the 
man is holy. If his course is wicked--the man is wicked. 

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular 
good actions--that his spiritual state is good. 

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular 
sinful actions--that his spiritual state is bad. 

A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of 
godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass
may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the 
needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
may have his particular sinful joggings this way or that 
way--yet the bent of his heart will still be . . .
God-wards,
Christ-wards,
heaven-wards, 
holiness-wards.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 4, 2007)

> A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of
> godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass
> may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the
> needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
> ...




"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." This also reminds me of Augustine's words "Love God and do as you please." If your heart is towards God, you will love Him and you will love holiness, you will want to do that which pleases Him.


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## JonathanHunt (Oct 4, 2007)

A general point on the topic of puritan teaching and preaching, and assurance.

The Puritans did not have to go out compelling people into church meetings - they were there by law. They had a captive audience. Many believed themselves to be saved when they were not, and therefore there is (I believe rightly) a very strong emphasis in the Puritan preaching style which challenges those who claim to be saved to bear fruit.

They preached and taught appropriately for their times. These days the majority of those who bother to attend a church gathering (esp in the UK) are born again. To keep hammering them in the same way the Puritans did would not just be unwise - it could be very harmful to those with faint assurance.

On the other hand, of course, we must continue to challenge the false professors.


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## sotzo (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks to all...very helpful and encouraging indeed. I think I simply need to be more comprehensive in my reading of the Puritans...since they dealt so comprehensively with various doctrines, it is easy to read one treatment in isolation of the others.


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## MW (Oct 4, 2007)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> (Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)
> 
> "No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
> who continues to sin has either seen Him or known
> Him." 1 John 3:6



I find it hard to believe Brooks would have endorsed that version of 1 John 3:6.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 4, 2007)

JonathanHunt said:


> A general point on the topic of puritan teaching and preaching, and assurance.
> 
> The Puritans did not have to go out compelling people into church meetings - they were there by law. They had a captive audience. Many believed themselves to be saved when they were not, and therefore there is (I believe rightly) a very strong emphasis in the Puritan preaching style which challenges those who claim to be saved to bear fruit.
> 
> ...



I don't think things are as different in the church today as you claim, brother. Here in the 'Bible belt' there are an abundance of professing Christians that are bearing absolutely no fruit in their lives. It's a product of the easy believism gospel, and I don't think it's just a problem in the south.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 4, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > (Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)
> ...



Are you talking about the bible version brother? The quote came off of grace gems and they "change" the version to a modern one. I personally wish they would have left it alone but they do a good work nontheless.


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## MW (Oct 4, 2007)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> Are you talking about the bible version brother? The quote came off of grace gems and they "change" the version to a modern one. I personally wish they would have left it alone but they do a good work nontheless.



Some modern publishers are doing the same thing. It seems to me to be quite deceptive.


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## CarlosOliveira (Oct 4, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > (Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)
> ...



I agree with you, Rev. Winzer. I'll give below Brooks's statement on full:

[1.] _Because a trade, a course of lying is not consistent with the truth or state of grace_, Psalm 139:23,24; 1 John 3:6-10.
A trade, a course of drunkenness, of whoring, of swearing, of cursing, is as inconsistent with a state of grace, as a trade, a course of lying is. I know Jacob lied, and David lied, and Peter lied, but none of these were ever given up to a trade of lying, to a course of lying. The best saints have had their extravagant motions, and have sadly miscarried as to particular actions; but he that shall judge of a christian's estate by particular acts, though notorius bad, will certainly condemn where God acquits: _una actio non denominat_. We must always distinguish between some single evil actions and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or that particular evil action, but a continued course of evil actions, that denominates a man wicked, as it is not this or that particular good act, but a continued course of holy actions, that denominates a man holy; if his course be wicked, the man is wicked. There is a maxim in logic, viz., That no general rule can be established upon a particular instance; and there is another maxim in logic, viz., That no particular instance can overthrow a general rule. So here, look, as no man can safely and groundedly conclude from no better premises than from some few particular actions, though in themselves materially and substantially good, that this or that man's spiritual estate is good; so, on the other hand, no man ought conclude, because of some particular sinful actions and extravagant motions, that this or that man's spiritual estate is bad. A trade of lying can never stand with a course of godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass may jog this way and that way, yet the bent of the needle will still be northward; so though a Jacob, a David, a Peter may have their particular sinful joggings this way or that way, yet the bent of their hearts will still be God-wards, Christ-wards, heaven-wards, and holiness-wards.

Works of Thomas Brooks, Vol. 6, London's Lamentations, pg. 97 (BOT edition).


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