# Was 70AD?



## ReformedWretch

The day of the Lord?


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## SmokingFlax

I'm willing to believe that it was _a_ Day of the LORD. I don't think I can go all the way to THE day of the LORD. I've always associated that with the last judgment -perhaps, like most everything else, I need to reconsider my position on this also (?).

I did a quick search for "day of the LORD" on crosswalk.com (a real nice online resource) and was surprised to find that there were only 30 uses of the term...I thought that there would be more. I'm also surprised to see that the first use of that phrase is as late as the time of Amos during Uzziah's reign (c.795 - 810 bc).

Online Study Bible 
Your search for "day of the Lord" resulted in: 
30 Verses in: Whole Bible


Verse Search Results (The New King James Version) 

RESULTS: 30 total results 

*Isa 2:12* - 
For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up-- And it shall be brought low-- 

*Isa 13:6* - 
Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 

*Isa 13:9* - 
Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 

*Isa 34:8* - 
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 

*Isa 58:13* - 
"If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 

*Jer 46:10* - 
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord God of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates. 

*La 2:22* - 
"You have invited as to a feast day The terrors that surround me. In the day of the Lord's anger There was no refugee or survivor. Those whom I have borne and brought up My enemies have destroyed." 

*Eze 13:5* - 
You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord. 

*Eze 30:3* - 
For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. 

*Joel 1:15* - 
Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty. 

*Joel 2:1* - 
Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 

*Joel 2:11* - 
The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? 

*Joel 2:31* - 
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 

*Joel 3:14* - 
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 

*Am 5:18* - 
Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. 

*Am 5:20* - 
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it? 

*Ob 1:15* - 
"For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. 

*Zep 1:7* - 
Be silent in the presence of the Lord God; For the day of the Lord is at hand, For the Lord has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 

*Zep 1:8* - 
"And it shall be, In the day of the Lord's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. 

*Zep 1:14* - 
The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. 

*Zep 1:18* - 
Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land. 

*Zep 2:2* - 
Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you! 

*Zep 2:3* - 
Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger. 

*Zec 14:1* - 
Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 

*Mal 4:5* - 
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 

*Acts 2:20* - 
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 

*1Cor 5:5* - 
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

*2Cor 1:14* - 
(as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

*1Th 5:2* - 
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 

*2Pe 3:10* - 
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 

..........

Here are the three verses that use "day of Christ"...

*Php 1:10* - 
that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 

*Php 2:16* - 
holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. 

*2Th 2:2* - 
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 

.......

There are 221 verses using the phrase "*that day*" 'though many are totally unrelated to the subject.

.......

Here are the 8 verses that use "*the last day*" -though I don't know EXACTLY that "the last day" and "the day of the LORD" are synonymous.

*Neh 8:18* - 
Also day by day, from the first day until the last day, he read from the Book of the Law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day there was a sacred assembly, according to the prescribed manner. 

*Joh 6:39* - 
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 

*Joh 6:40* - 
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

*Joh 6:44* - 
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 

*Joh 6:54* - 
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

*Joh 7:37* - 
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 

*Joh 11:24* - 
Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 

*Joh 12:48* - 
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 


I hope this helps.


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## VanVos

I think it's important to make a distinction between the Day of Lord Jesus (or the day of Chirst) with the day of Lord. I would say the day of Lord as prophesied in the New Testament took place in AD 70 i.e. 2 Thess 2 but the Day of the Lord Jesus is that future judgment of Humanity on the last day i.e. John 6:39-40, 1 Cor 1:7-8, Philip 1:6,10 etc

VanVos


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## Dan....

> Was 70AD?
> 
> 
> 
> The day of the Lord?



No.


2Peter 3:10 - 12:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


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## VanVos

2 Peter 3:9-13 I recommend John Owen's work: 



> Dr. John Owen (1616-1683) On the 'New Heavens and Earth.' (2 Peter iii. 13)
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.
> 
> ' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
> 
> ' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.
> 
> '3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
> 
> ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-
> 
> '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judgment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.
> 
> '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.
> 
> This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.
> 
> First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.
> 
> There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*
> 
> * Dr. Owen's Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11. Works, folio, Reprinted 1721.



VanVos


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## Dan....

I recommend Matthew Henry's work:

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC61003.HTM

[Edited on 19-11-2004 by Dan....]


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## just_grace

*Day of the Lord...*



> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> The day of the Lord?



The day of the Lord, surely is the day when rocks and mountains fall in those who wish to hide from his presence. God ways are not our ways. Some people want to rationlise everything.

Listen to Peter, 1 day and a thousand years are the same to God.

The Day of the Lord is as a thief of the night.

Just make sure you have bowed the knee to Christ. And for those who have....tell other's about the Lord Jesus.

David

[Edited on 11-19-2004 by just_grace]


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## luvroftheWord

Read Richard Pratt's article on prophecy and historical contingencies in the book _When Shall These Things Be?: A Reformed Response to Hyper Preterism_.


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by Dan...._
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> 2Peter 3:10 - 12:
> 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
> 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
> 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?




Interestingly enough, in a debate between Gary Demar and Tommy Ice, Demar referred to this as the destruction of Jerusalem. Now, I don't personally hold that view but I had never thought of that option before.


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## ReformedWretch

> _Originally posted by luvroftheWord_
> Read Richard Pratt's article on prophecy and historical contingencies in the book _When Shall These Things Be?: A Reformed Response to Hyper Preterism_.



I have that book! I'll check it out!


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## andreas

***I think it's important to make a distinction between the Day of Lord Jesus (or the day of Chirst) with the day of Lord.***



"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." 2 Th 2:1-3


They are one and the same thing.judgment day.
andreas.


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## VanVos

2 Thess 2:2 should translated the day of Lord. Here's a paper by Kenneth Gentry on this chapter http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt550.htm

VanVos


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## ReformedWretch

Thanks for that paper Jonathan! Anything by Gentry is normally gold in my opinion.


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## andreas

***2 Thess 2:2 should translated the day of Lord. Here's a paper by Kenneth Gentry on this chapter http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt550.htm***



" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God".2 Thes.1,4.


The day of the Lord(Christ) is judgment day ,not 70 AD.Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they are not to be troubled,for the day is not at hand and will only arrive after the apostasy takes place in the temple of God,the church.There was nothing holy in the literal Jerusalem temple,so apostacy does not refer to the literal temple but to the church.It is Satan that will sit in the temple with his false doctrines,(homosexual bishops,women preachers,same sex marriages,salvation with works,free willism.....)not some Roman emperor.We are the temple of God,the church is the temple,the true believers ,not some building made of rocks in the middle east.John 2:19,John 2:21,1 Corr.3:16,
andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Quote:

"There was nothing holy in the literal Jerusalem temple"

If this is true then how do you answer to this scripture?

Matt.23:16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or *the temple that sanctifies the gold?* 18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or *the altar that sanctifies the gift? * 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you altogether but this scripture popped into my head as soon as I read your post.

Also, what EXACTLY is "the falling away"? Your list of egregious sins certainly could fit within that designation and yet not be quite *the* fulfillment. Some would argue that the Church has been in the age of apostacy since the end of the apostolic age.

Can it NOT be said that the destruction of Jerusalem was a coming in judgment against the apostate Jewish religion who was actively persecuting (and agitating) the Thessolonican Body (Acts 17:1-15) and ALL Christian Churches in the age of the Apostles? 

In the intro to 2 Thessalonians Paul mentions

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation *those who trouble you*, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

again Acts 17

v.1 ...'they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.'

v.2...and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ." 

v.5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

v.6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, "These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 Jason has harbored them, and *these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king--Jesus.*" 8 And they troubled the crowd and the rulers of the city when they heard these things.

Leviticus 21:9 The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the harlot, she profanes her father. *She shall be burned with fire.* 

If this is God's just requirement for the daughter of a priest, how much more so for an entirely corrupt priesthood who had prostituted itself to the ruling Roman civil order over and against it's own Scriptures?

Psalm 10:16 The Lord is King forever and ever;
1 Samuel ch.12 etc.


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## andreas

***If this is true then how do you answer to this scripture?

Matt.23:16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it." ***


The Pharisses viewed some oaths as binding while other oaths as non binding,while Jesus teaches that all oaths are binding ,23:20-22.Previously Jesus denied the need for any oaths at all ,5:33-37.Furthermore their teachings lead to carnal worship of God,as they placed more value on the offerings than the temple.The temple is more important than the gifts offered in it.
andreas.


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## andreas

***Can it NOT be said that the destruction of Jerusalem was a coming in judgment against the apostate Jewish religion who was actively persecuting (and agitating) the Thessolonican Body (Acts 17:1-15) and ALL Christian Churches in the age of the Apostles?***


The destruction of the temple refers to Christ.The old Testament temple was only a shadow of the real thing to come,Col.2:17,which is Jesus Christ.He is the real temple of God.John2:19,John 2:21.With the crucifixion of Christ the fulfillment was also complete.There was no further need for a temple,after 33 AD.The temple of the old Testament,the shadow ,was fulfilled in Christ.
andreas.


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## andreas

***Also, what EXACTLY is "the falling away"?***


"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"1 Timothy 4:1

That is a good description of falling away.Falling away from faith.
andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

So...

how can something that is merely "more important" sanctify something else?

*Sanctify*- to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: -hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Did Jesus REALLY abolish the taking of oaths entirely? 

If so why did he submit to an oath at His "trial"? (Matt 26:63)...and why did Paul invoke God as his witness? (Rom. 1:9) ...Why does God Himself take an oath for our encouragment? (Heb. 6:17)


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## andreas

***If so why did he submit to an oath at His "trial"? (Matt 26:63)...***

"Jesus held his peace" so the Scripture was fulfilled. He did not submit to an oath.

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" Isa 53:7
andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Andreas...did you even READ Matthew 26:63 before you replied?

Matt.26:62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, "Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?" 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, *"I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!"* 64 *Jesus said to him*, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 

He clearly answered Caiaphas under oath.


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## andreas

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Matthew 26:64 legei autw o ihsouV su eipaV plhn legw umin ap arti oyesqe ton uion tou anqrwpou kaqhmenon ek dexiwn thV dunamewV kai ercomenon epi twn nefelwn tou ouranou 


SU EIPAV---SO YOU SAY.
It does not say,"it is as you said".There is a difference here.
andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Thou hast said...You said (it)...so you say...etc. etc.

Regardless of the translation...the point is that Jesus still answered Caiaphas under oath -the answer for which he was crucified.

Furthermore Chapter 22 of the *Westminster Confession * certainly does not condemn oath taking but rather lays out the Biblical guidelines for correctly swearing an oath. Do you know something that all of the Westminster divines somehow missed out on?

This is the _Puritan_ Board is it not?

*Chapter XXII*
*Of Lawful Oaths and Vows*

*I.* A lawful oath is part of religious worship,443 wherein, upon just occasion, the person swearing
solemnly calls God to witness what he asserts, or promises, and to judge him according to the truth or
falsehood of what he swears.444

*II. * The name of God only is that by which men ought to swear, and therein it is to be used with all holy
fear and reverence.445Therefore, to swear vainly, or rashly, by that glorious and dreadful Name; or, to swear
at all by any other thing, is sinful, and to be abhorred.446 Yet, as in matters of weight and moment, an oath is
warranted by the Word of God, under the New Testament as well as under the old;447 so a lawful oath, being
imposed by lawful authority, in such matters, ought to be taken.448

*III.* Whosoever takes an oath ought duly to consider the weightiness of so solemn an act, and therein to
avouch nothing but what he is fully persuaded is the truth:449 neither may any man bind himself by oath to
any thing but what is good and just, and what he believes so to be, and what he is able and resolved to
perform.450 Yet it is a sin to refuse an oath touching any thing that is good and just, being imposed by lawful
authority.451

*IV.* An oath is to be taken in the plain and common sense of the words, without equivocation, or mental
reservation.452 It cannot oblige to sin; but in any thing not sinful, being taken, it binds to performance,
although to a man's own hurt.453 Not is it to be violated, although made to heretics, or infidels.454

*V.* A vow is of the like nature with a promissory oath, and ought to be made with the like religious care,
and to be performed with the like faithfulness.455

*VI. * It is not to be made to any creature, but to God alone:456 and that it may be accepted, it is to be made
voluntarily, out of faith, and conscience of duty, in way of thankfulness for mercy received, or for the
obtaining of what we want, whereby we more strictly bind ourselves to necessary duties: or, to other things,
so far and so long as they may fitly conduce thereunto.457

*VII.* No man may vow to do any thing forbidden in the Word of God, or what would hinder any duty
therein commanded, or which is not in his own power, and for the performance whereof he has no promise of
ability from God.458 In which respects, popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty,
and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and
sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself.459

443 *DEU 10:20 * Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

444 *EXO 20:7* Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
*LEV 19:12* And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. 
*2CO 1:23 * Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
*2CH 6:22 * If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house; 23 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his
righteousness.

445 *DEU 6:13 * Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

446 *EXO 20:7* Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 
*JER 5:7* How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses. 
*MAT 5:34* But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 
*JAM 5:12* But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

447 *HEB 6:16 * For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. *2CO 1:23* Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 
*ISA 65:16* That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

448 *1KI 8:31 * If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house. *NEH 13:25* And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. 
*EZR 10:5* Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel, to swear that they should do according to this word. And they sware.

449 *EXO 20:7* Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 
*JER 4:2* And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him
shall they glory.

450 *GEN 24:2* And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: 3 And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell. 5 And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest? 6 And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not
my son thither again. 8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again. 9 And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter.

451 *NUM 5:19 * And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse. 21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. 
*NEH 5:12* Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they should do according to this promise. 
*EXO 22:7* If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double. 8 If the thief
be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour. 10 If a man deliver unto his neighbour an ass, or an ox, or a sheep, or any beast, to keep; and it die, or be hurt, or driven away, no man seeing it: 11 Then shall an oath of the Lord be between them both, that he hath not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods; and the owner of it shall accept thereof, and he shall not make it good.

452 *JER 4:2* And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. *PSA 24:4* He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

453 *1SA 25:22 * So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: 33 And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. 34 For in very deed, as the Lord God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 
*PSA 15:4 * In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.

454 *EZE 17:16 * As I live, saith the Lord God, surely in the place where the king dwelleth that made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant he brake, even with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die. 18 Seeing he despised the oath by breaking the covenant, when, lo, he had given his hand, and hath done all these things, he shall not escape. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; As I live, surely mine oath that he hath despised, and my covenant that he hath broken, even it will I recompense upon his own head. 
*JOS 9:18* And the children of Israel smote them
not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the Lord God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes. 19 But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the Lord God of Israel: now therefore we may not
touch them. 
*2SA 21:1* Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David inquired of the Lord. And the Lord answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

455 *ISA 19:21 * And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it. 
*ECC 5:4* When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy
mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? 
*PSA 61:8* So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows. *66:13 * I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, 14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.

456 *PSA 76:11 * Vow, and pay unto the Lord your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared. 
*JER 44:25* Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows. 26 Therefore hear ye the word of the Lord, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the Lord, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord God liveth.

457 *DEU 23:21 * When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the Lord thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth. 
*PSA 50:14* Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High. 
*GEN 28:20* And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: 22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. 
*1SA 1:11* And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine
handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head. 
*PSA 66:13* I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, 14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. *132:2* How he sware unto the Lord, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob; 3 Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; 4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, 5 Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

458 *ACT 23:12 * And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul. 
*MAR 6:26* And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her. 
*NUM 30:5* But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the Lord shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her. 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the Lord shall forgive her. 12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her. 13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

459 *MAT 19:11 * But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. 
*1CO 7:2* Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 
*EPH 4:28* Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 
*1PE 4:2* That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of
God. 
*1CO 7:23* Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.


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## andreas

***Furthermore Chapter 22 of the Westminster Confession certainly does not condemn oath taking but rather lays out the Biblical guidelines for correctly swearing an oath. Do you know something that all of the Westminster divines somehow missed out on?

This is the Puritan Board is it not?***


" Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil".Matt. 5:33-37


You ask if i know something the Westminster divines missed.All i know is what the word of God says in Matthew 5:33-37,and to me, that is very clear.Should we not ask ourselves "What saith the scriptures?" Rom.4:3, as "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2 Timothy 3:16.

andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

I would maintain that Christ is NOT anulling the Law, as he stated previously in Matt. 5

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 

Andreas, I see your point *very* clearly but a bigger issue is then raised as a result ...
Your position would make Christ plainly contradicting himself in the same sermon. The entire Sermon on the Mount is filled with hyperbole aimed -not at the existing Law of Moses - but at the Talmudic interpretations (oral traditions) and/or distortions of the Pharisees that always gave room for weaseling out of one's moral duties. 

Notice how the constant refrain in Matthew 5-7 is "You have heard that it was SAID..." not that it was WRITTEN.


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## SmokingFlax

I know Paul...I just got carried away last night in a frenzy Bible postings and counteroffensives. 'Sorry.


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## SmokingFlax

"What did you think about Jesus' comming in 33 ad, though?"


I see problems with that too. Not the least of which are the points you mentioned...but also Andreas seems to not be able to make up his mind if Christ is the temple or the Church is the temple (as he posted earlier).

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though as I might not be understanding what he's getting at.


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## andreas

19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body".John 2.

When Jesus said "destroy this temple" ,He meant His body(verse21),and He did raise it up on the third day,according to the scriptures.1 Cor.15:4

The church is also the body of Christ. 1Corr.12:27, Eph.5:30, Eph.3:6

Jesus and His church are indivisible,"And He is the head of the body,the church". Col.1:18.
He is the precious corner stone,Isa.28:16, on which the New Testament church,is being build with the living stones.

andreas.


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## andreas

***Futhermore, Andreas' interpretation only proposes another problem. Jesus liked the destruction of the temple with His comming.***

The destruction of the temple is the cross,not His coming.
andreas.


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## andreas

Matt.24:1 says,THE BUILDINGS of the temple.the word buildings is plural..The passage can not be talking about the temple alone.It is speaking about the related buildings as well ,the wailing wall,and the foundations.If God wanted to say the temple ,why did he not use the temple building?Mark 13:1-2,has the same plural word.Since you brought Matt.24,then,both Matt.24:1-2,and Luke 21:5-6,are talking about the destruction of the churches.NOT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER.NOT ONE FAITHFUL CHURCH WILL BE LEFT JUST BEFORE Jesus SECOND COMING.Christ's first coming was associated with apostacy in Israel,and during His second coming there will again be apostacy in the church,so much so,that no stones will be left standing.The Old Testament church that was supposed to be the body of Christ fell at the cross,and the New Testament body will fall just before the second coming.
andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

I don't know Andreas...

Luke 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "*These things which you see*--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

...it seems pretty clear in this passage that Christ is referring to the Jerusalem temple to me.


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## Scot

I don't think this passage has been mentioned yet, so I thought I'd throw it out for comment.

1 Peter 2:5:
Ye also, *as lively stones, are built up a spiritul house*, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


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## andreas

***1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 


Are you saying that it could read: "Jesus left Himself???" He drew attention to ITS buildings. So, since the temple is Jesus then what are Jesus' buildings??? (Remember, they have to be part of His body).***



Matthew 24,Mark 13,and Luke 21,are speaking about the end of the world,and if they are talking about the end of the world why should we focus on the events of 70 AD? In Matt.24:1-5,in verse 3 the apostles are asking when are these things going to take place?Which things are these?The events in verse 2.Jesus answers and tells them when,in verse 4 and 5.,which goes nicely with Matt.24:24---"for there shall arise false christs,and false prophets,and shall show great wonders".Jesus is not talking about some physical temple,He is talking about a spiritual temple.He departed from the temple and went to the mount of olives, where the disciples asked about the events of the end times.

andreas.


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## andreas

***The holy place is the temple. So, when the disciples see the abonination of desolation standing in Jesus' body...???? ***

We have established that the scriptures are talking about the church.That is where the abomination will take place.In the church.Not the physical temple in Jerusalem.We are talking about the end times.Lets stick to them.The temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD has nothing to do with the end times.

andreas.


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## andreas

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is".1 Corr..3:11-13.


The corporate church is made up of precious stones,gold and silver which are the true believers,while wood ,hay and stubble are the "so called" christians who are not truly saved.You will accept that every church has both ,possesors and professors.We are told that when we see false doctrines taking over in the church,to leave,and that ,will only leave the wood hay and stubble which are no good anyway,so no stones (living stones-true believers will be left standing)in a congregation that is not acceptable to God as a holy temple.Luke 21:5-6,is basically saying the same thing.
In 1 Corr.3 verse 11 ,we are told that there is only one foundation available to build the church,and that is Christ,but you can not build the church unless you have living stones,the true believers,the gold,the silver,all precious and washed with the blood of the Lamb,and that is where the cross comes in.

andreas.

andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Quote:

"Matthew 24,Mark 13,and Luke 21,are speaking about the end of the world..."

Are they? Only...and exclusively??? Or is it possible that they are speaking of the end of the Jewish polity, etc. as well?

Quote:

"The temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD has NOTHING to do with the end times."

That's a pretty big statement. You yourself have already compared the apostacy of the Jews (and by extension -their subsequent being tried 'by fire') with the apostacy of the NT Church. Even by your own standard the tribulation of the Jews in AD 70 is a supreme example of the severity of God's righteous judgment. Not to mention the countless and inextricable connections between the temple and the Mosaic ordinances as well as the entire prophetic witness in Israel from which we are directed by the NT to learn from their example. 

Also, Peter, in his sermon on the day of Pentecost certainly didn't think that "the end times" were some far off day ...

Acts 2:16Â But THIS IS what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17Â 'And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18Â And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19Â I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20Â The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

So, are we to conclude that Peter meant that ever since that day in Jerusalem we have been living in "the last days" for almost 2000 years or is this (above) statement strictly an impassioned plea to his doomed fellow countrymen (to whom only he was preaching) who were sitting on the edge of the abyss... 

Acts 2:14 "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words..."

...Or is there another explanation that doesn't require us to use mental contortions to stretch beyond the plain text?


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## andreas

***ME: One last time. If the temple means Jesus' body then when he left the temple did he leave himself? If no, then it doesn't refer to his body. if yes then... well, whatever. Also, Jesus drew their attention to ***ITS*** buildings. Which buildings where those? Why the temples of course. He said *of THOSE* buildings that not one stone would be left on another.***




You find it difficult to accept that Jesus was not talking of the physical temple when he said, "destroy this temple and in three days i will raise it up".John 2:19.You do not want to hear the spiritual truths that Christ spoke.He often spoke in parables,and metaphors.When he talks about the temple you only see stones,when he talks about eating his flesh what do you see?What we have in the Old Testament are shadows of the real thing.For example,the sacrifices were a shadow of the true sacrifice of Christ.The temple was a figure of Christ.What do the scriptures say about shadows?

"who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things".Hebrews 8:5,

"for the law having a shadow of good things to come,and not the very image of things".Hebrews10:1.

"For Christ is not entered into holy places made with hands,which are figures of the true".Hebrews9:24.

Remember that God is a spirit,and we must worship him in spirit and in truth.

"set your affection on things above,not on things of the earth" Colossians3:2.and again,

"it is the spirit that quickens,the flesh profits nothing.the WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT"John 6:63.

The physical temple meant nothing.It was a shadow of Christ.The literal sacrifices meant nothing.They were a shadow of the sacrifice of the Lamb.
One last thing.If you insist to focus that the physical temple in Jerusalem ,then can you please explain Revelation 11,verses 1 and 2?
John was told to measure the temple,the altar and them that worship therein.Spiritually this represents the church,1 Cor.3:16-17,2 Corr.6:16-17,Ephe.3:21.
"the altar and them that worship therein".Only priests were allowed in,but then true believers are royal priests ,are they not?1 Peter 2:5-9.
John was commanded to measure the temple.WHAT TEMPLE?THE PHYSICAL TEMPLE WAS NOT EVEN STANDING AT THE TIME JOHN WAS ASKED TO PERFORM THE TASK,AND ON TOP OF IT ALL, HE WAS ON THE ISLAND OF PATMOS .what exactly was to measure with the stick?How can you explain this,if you have spiritual myopia?


andreas.


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## andreas

***The temple *was* standing and that is proof that it had not been destroyed yet so John wrote that before 70 ad.***


The consensus among twentieth century scholars is that the Apocalypse was written during the reign of Domitian around 95AD.
andreas.


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## andreas

***Let God be true though all consensus' are liars. if God's word tells us something i care not what the consensus say.***

There is not a single really cogent argument in support of the early date.On the other hand there is strong support for the latter date,

Irenaeous:"for that was seen not very long time since,but almost in our time,toward the end of Domitian's reign",and again,"the church in Ephesus,founded by Paul,and lived in by John till the time of Trajan.98-117 AD,is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
andreas.


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## Fernando

andreas,

If consensus of scholars matters to you, you will have to admit that the consensus of scholars is that the temple in Matthew 24 is Herod's temple.

About the date of Revelation: Have you read Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell"? He convinced me that the late date view I held was wrong, and that a date in the late 60s was far more likely. Well worth reading; in fact, essential.


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## andreas

PUH-leeeaase. Your gogent argument is Iraneus, a DISPUTED excerpt at that!


Irenaeus was aquainted with Polycarp(69-155),who was a desciple of John,and served as a bridge between the last part of the first and to the latter part of the second century.You would expect both Polycarp and Irenaeous to relate at least something about John that was reliable.

andreas.


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## DeafPosttrib

I'm new!!! 

I read puritanboard forum. They are so excellence!! I consider this is the largest amil/postmil forum in the world! 

I was used myself pretrib/premill before. Now, I am postrib/amil. My belief have been switched lot within 4 years. 

I reading through this topic debate about 70 A.D. on Matthew chapter 24. 

Myself not a partial preterist or full preterist either. I am an Idealist. 

Partial preterists often stress on Matt. 24:34 'this generation' was already passed after all of these were fulfilled in 70 A.D. 

Andreas, 

I never thought of what you saying on 'temple'. That temple was speak of Christ's body. That Christ told them, He'll destroyed this building of the temple, and he'll rise it up in three days speak of his body at resurrection. 

You might be correct. 

Although, I believe Christ was speak of that building of temple, because the disciples shew Christ of these buildings of temple - Matt. 24:1. Then, Christ told them of these will be destroyed, will not be a stone stands left. Matt. 24:2 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. 

I do partially AGREE with Andreas, that the building of the temple was destroyed by Jesus Christ already fulfilled in Mark 15:37-38, when after Christ gave up his soul at calvary, at the same the veil of the temple tore down from top to bottom, shows that Christ said, "It is finished" - John 19:30. Also, it fulfilled in John 2:19. 

The context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25 talking about the signs of the end of world and Christ's coming. Christ was NOT discuss about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Christ was discuss about the signs of the end of the world and His coming. 

I do agree with the history tells us, the building of temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Roman army in 70 A.D. 

But, I do not think Matthew chapter 24 is refer with the event of 70 A.D. 

If suppose partial/full preterism is correct that they saying Matt. 24:34 already fulfilled in year 70 A.D.

Then, the problem for them, Matt. 24:27-31 not yet to be occured. Matt. 24:27-31 MUST be literal and physical to be occured, as EVERY person in the world shall *SEE* Christ coming in the clouds with power and glory same as refer in Revelation 1:7 says that every person of the world shall SEE Christ coming in the clouds with his angels. 

Full preterists often intepreting Matt. 24:27-31 into spiritualize. I consider, that they seem deny the literal & physical coming of Christ is a future event. 

Matt. 24:34 requires 'this generation' shall not be passed TILL *ALL THINGS shall be fulfilled FIRST*. Obivous, Matt. 24:34 is not yet fulfilled, because Matt. 24:29-31 tell us, that we must see the SIGNS of the comsic disturbance to be occured, also, we all shall SEE Christ appears in the clouds with power and glory, and He shall send angels to gathering all saints together in the air. 

There is no record find in history saying that a person already see Jesus appears in the clouds with his angels. 

So, therefore, Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 both are not yet occured, it is yet to come shall be fulfilled once after Christ appears first.


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## Scott Bushey

DeafPostTrib,
Please click on the link at the bottom of my post for your signature requirements......

Thanks and welcome


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## Me Died Blue

Welcome to Puritan Board! Make yourself at home.


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## DeafPosttrib

Chris,

You looks so young to me. You seems in age around early 20's. I just turn 35 last Nov 22nd. Most people saying to me, I looks younger in early 20's. Because my face is baby. Ha! Ha!


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## Me Died Blue

Well, I guess that's better for you than looking old! As to myself, I'm 18.


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## andreas

***The disciples asked Jesus a question. Jesus was talking *to them* and He keeps saying "you." ***

The bible is not written for for those the speech is addressed.It is written for all the church,for all the believers to consider,throughout time.When He said "do this in remebrance of Me",He was not just talking to the apostles but to all the church.

andreas.


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## andreas

*** The soilders removed the bricks to get to the gold. Not one stone was left on another!***

Not true.For anyone who has seen the site,there are still stones standing upon each other,so it can not be talking about literal stones.

andreas.


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul,

Earlier, I say on Matt 24:1-2: 


> Although, I believe Christ was speak of that building of the temple, because the disciples shew Christ of these buildings of the temple - Matt. 24:1. Then, Christ told them of these will be destroyed, will not be a stone stands left. Matt. 24:2 already fulfilled in 70 A.D.



You say:


> Again. Christ said the destruction of the temple was a *sign of his coming*



You are partially correct as what Christ told them. Yes, the destruction of the temple was a part of the sign of his coming. Christ told them, as He predicts the building of the temple shall be destroyed, his disciples were shocked what they hear of him. That why, they were curious asking Christ, what the signs of the end of the world, and his coming? Disciples thought the destruction of the temple is the part of the sign of his coming. I am not saying that they were wrong. 

If suppose, I am in disciples' shoe, I would have wondering and curious, is this a sign of destruction of the temple show the sign of Christ's coming draw near, because I have no idea what will be happen in the future. I am not a prophet. Christ was a truly prophet, and also He is Messiah. 

I am sure, that some of Christians include some Christ's disciples who were still alive and remain while dwell in Jerusalem, saw Roman army invaded Jerusalem, and the building of the temple destroyed, that they seem expected Christ might come again anytime in their lifetime. But there is no record find anywhere in the histroy telling us, that a person already see Jesus appears in the clouds with his angels. 

Many Christians include Christ's disciples were scattered out of Jerusalem. Tradition tells us, Apostle Peter were brought to Rome, and were martyred by crucified up-down. 

Yet, all of these signs of Matthew 24 are still happening right throughout Centuries since Ewrly Church to present day, these are still occuring right now, and will be continue till Christ comes. 

The signs of Matt. 24:4-14 are still happening everywhere in the world today, cannot we see these signs are showing everywhere? 

I understand of Revelation chapter 11 - 'temple of God', it is not speak of future literal building of the temple in Jerusalem, it speaks of the Church as we are the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16,17; & 6:19-20). That gentles(heathensor unsaved) shall persecute against Christians. Satan still persecute against Church throughout Centuries since Early Church to present day, and I consider Revelation chapter 11 of this event is still yet to come is also future. The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 - many disps/pretrib believe they are Elijah & Moses or Enoch. Probably they are correct. But, I understand of two witnesses represent Christians, that we are witness for Christ, Christ gives us of his power to preach the gospel to the world. Satan will make war against them(Rev. 11:7 same as Rev. 13:7, 10). 

You say:


> But we want to know what the Bible teaches, not what you think



I agree with you. Absolutely, you are right. We must stick with God's word, what it saying than what we listening to men's teaching according to Colossians 2:8. Of course, I do not make-up of my intepreting & opinions. 

But, we all have to be admit that we all have different views on what we interpreting diffierently what the scripture saying. We cannot be expect that every Christian have the same view and belief on the doctrine issues, because we are all human, our understanding are limited. God's knowledge is more beyond ahead over us. When we all die, into the heaven, then we all will have same mind and will know everything. 

I read your post on the context of Matt. 24:1-35 'you', 'ye'. 

I am aware of partial/full preterists stress on word, 'you', 'ye' in the context of Matthew 24, that Christ was speak TOWARD his disciples who were alive and remain in Christ's time, some of them who were still alive and remain in the next 40 years probably already heard or saw the destruction of Jerusalem in their lifetime. Prove that Matt. 24:34 already fulfilled in 70 A.D.

I am not ignore the context of Matthew 24. Reading the context of Matthew 24 is very important. I have been read through whole Matthew chapter 24 probably over hundreds of times in my lifetime. 

Yes, that is true, Christ was speak toward to his disciples-'you', 'ye'. But, it does not limited for the disciples only, also, Christ was speak toward us as believers throughout all centuries, that we must be prepared and be watch be ready for his coming. 

Revelation1 :7 tells us, that every person shall *SEE* Christ appears in the clouds with his angels. 

Does the history telling us, a person already see Jesus appears in the clouds with his angels? 

My question is, WHERE is Jesus Christ right now? 

I understand of 'must soon take place' of Rev. 1:1 speaks of imminent. Amills believe Christ's coming is an imminent. Rev. 1:1 does not prove that 70 A.D. was already fulfilled. 

I hear many preterists saying the book of Revelation was witten BEFORE year 70 A.D. They have to show us the evidence of date that the book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

I don't care what year, the book of Revelation was written.

Rev. 1:7 is not yet fulfilled, because the history does not telling us, that a person already see Jesus appears in the clouds. So, Christ is not yet present on the earth in physical. Where is Jesus Christ right now? He is currently sit on the right hand of God the Father in the heaven. 

Matthew 24:36 speaks of 'that day' about Christ's coming, no person know when day or hour Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. That verse do nothing with year 70 A.D. Because there is no record find in history telling us, a person already see Jesus appears in the clouds. 

2 Peter 3:3-4 tell us, the last days scoffers asking, where is the promise of Lord's coming? Many of them were expecting Lord might come anytime in their lifetime, but they all already died many Centuries ago. In other word, many people saying, 'Often, we hear old story telling us, Jesus is coming again, it is nothing new to us, it is fable or baloney, nothing will be happened.' 

Also, Early Christians were expecting Christ might come anytime in their lifetime, same as we are expecting Christ might come anytime in our lifetime. 

Matt. 24:36 tells us, no one knows what day or hour when Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. 

Matt. 24:42 & 44 command us, that we ought always be watch and be ready for Lord's coming.

Why? Because Christ warns us, his coming shall be like as thief in the night. Christ told us of Matt. 24:37-41, the example of Noah's day, people were not expecting of the flood come, and suddenly the flood came and took them away, SO, it shall be SAME as at Christ's coming. 

Matt. 24:40-41 speak of the thief in the night is for the unbelievers who are not watch and not prepared, these who shall be take away for the judgment, and cast them away into everlasting fire follow Matt. 25:31-46 at Christ's coming. 

You say:


> we recognize that there is MORE THAN one sense of *coming*,



More than just a coming??? You mean there is partial coming or phases of Christ's coming??? 

You believe there are partial comings or phases of Christ's coming. You mean that in your mind, that you believe the 'first' of Christ's coming was already fulfilled in 70 A.D., then the next 'second' Christ's coming shall be physically at the end of the world - future event? 

You say:


> yes there were cosmic disturbances at that time



I ask you, does the record or history telling us, a person already see the cosmic disturbance around Jerusalem? 

What about Indians in North America during year 70 A.D.? Do Indians in North America see Christ appears in the clouds in Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7? 

You ask me:


> Why tell the church at lyodicia to hold on to what they have because Christ would come back to claim it? Especially since Christ didn't come back to claim it??? Because He, supposedly, never came back



The purpose of Revelation chapter 2 to 3 of the seven churches were given message with the instruction with warning from Jesus Christ. That we ought always to hold the teaching of Christ, and always be ready to watch and we alwats be ready to death(Rev. 3:2-3), because we do not know when we will die, or Christ comes, we always be ready all the time, because we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ to judge our works. That why we always be ready all the time. Early Christians have been watch and be ready all the times, they do not know when Christ shall come. Although, all of Early Christians already died many Centuries ago. Still, all of Revelation chapter 2 & 3 always apply to us of every individuals throughout all centuries, that we ought always be watch and ready all the time.


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## andreas

34" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".MATTHEW 24.



Could you please tell us which generation is Jesus talking about?You know that there are two types of generations.The evil generation and the chosen generation.

"this is an evil generation."...Luke 11:29

"o generation of vipers" .Matthew 12:34

"you serpents,ye generation of vipers"..Matthew 23:33

On the other hand we have the chosen generation,

"but you are a chosen generation,a royal priesthood"....1 Peter2:9.

So before you go on, tell us which generation is Jesus talking about?

andreas.

[Edited on 1-12-2004 by andreas]


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul,

You say:


> Tell me, if you are in America, and Christ's descends in Jerusalem, you're saying that you'll see Christ's physical body???? I 'll be gracious. Let's say that Jesus was 9 ft tall. You want me to believe that you will see a nine foot tall object from here in America?????



I strong believe the Bible teaches us Christ shall come again in physical. visibly, and literal. 

Acts 1:9-11 is a perfect example about future Christ's coming. When after Christ give a great comission to his disciples, then He ascend up into the clouds. I ask you, is Christ's ascend into the clouds- unvisible and spiritually??? 

While disciples stare up in the sky, suddenly, two angels appeared in the midst of them, and told them, why stare up in the sky? You(disciples) see Christ being caught up into the clouds, THIS shall be the SAME manner when Christ shall come. Obivous, angels were speak of Christ's coming shall be visibly, physical, and literal. 

Reading Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 is not difficult for us to understand, no excuse for full preterists to read Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7, they know better than that. 

By the way, I am glad that you are not a full pretrist, you do believe Christ's coming(second advent) shall be a literal and physical .

You say:


> Matt 26 is a transition text and Jesus switches from speaking about THIS day to speaking about THAT day. Before the transition text we hear of wars and rumors of wars. After, we read that people will be partying like they did in the days of Noah. So, the first half of Matt 24 refers to 70 a.d. The next refers to his second advent.



Preterists do really have problem in their interpreting of Matt. 24:36 'that day', no way, that they can prove there is TWO comings of Matt 24:36, while Christ was speaking of his only one future coming at the end of the world/age in the context of Matthew chapter 24. 

My belief of Matt. 24:36 never change for 16 years since first I read Matt. 24:36, I easy understand of verse 36 speaks of no one know when Christ's coming will be, only God, the father knows. This verse is clear speak of the second advent - physical and visible. That why Matt. 24:42, 44 command us that we must always be ready and watch for Christ's coming, because we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ to judge our works. 

You say:


> The OT uses cosmic signs to explain judgment



I did read another forums as what preterists show of OT verses abut cosmic disturbance speak of judgment in spiritually. 

I do not deny O.T. verses as what they show us about cosmic disturbance. 

I believe Matt. 24:27-30 is very loud speak to us, that all people of the world both believers and unbelievers shall *see in their own eyes*.

I already see the esclipe of sun & moon few times in my lifetime. Also, I hear & read newspapers, T.V., and people saying, they saw falling stars in the sky. I believe them. 

I believe Matt. 24:29-30 telling us, all of three things- sun, moon, and stars will be disappear SAME TIME, caused by God's power. Why? Because the old heavens and the old earth shall be destroyed follow Christ's coming same time according to 2 Peter 3:10-13. The cosmic disturbance of Matt 24:29-30 will be literally in our sight, that every person of the world will be shocked and become scare when they shall see cosomic disturbance occured.


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul,

I forget one thing to tell you. 

Matt. 26:64 - Christ was speak to the high priest, that he(priest) shall see Christ sitting on the right hand of power, and the coming in the clouds of heaven. Obivous, Christ was speak toward high priest, I am sure what in preterists' mind, that high priest was still alive and saw the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70 A.D. 40 years later after Christ told him. 

Probably they are correct. 

Actually, verse 64 word, 'ye' is not just for focus on high priest only, also, Christ was speak to all individuals either believers or unbelievers that they all shall see Christ come in the clouds of heaven, that would be the second advent. 

The reason Christ told to the high preist of verse 64, showed him that Jesus Christ IS the Messiah, and the Son of God. The high priest doesn't like what he heard Christ saying, because he does not believe Jesus is a true Messiah in person as flesh.


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul,

you say:


> How is this a problem, *at all!* I recognize that this refers to the second comming. Yes, the angels say: "this same Jesus who YOU..." Notice, though, it does NOT say that the same YOU will see him return, where it does in other passages. I fail to see how this was at all releventto this discussion.



I think, I can read in your mind, what the angels said "YOU" speaks toward to the disciples only, not apply to us. 

I have problem with Acts 1:9-11. Yes, the angels was actual saying to them, 'YOU', the purpose of what the angels told them, it give us the lesson, the Bible teaches us, Christ's coming shall be a literal, physical, and visible, the same person -Jesus which was taken up into the clouds, the same person -Jesus that He shall come down from the clouds shall be in physical, literal, and visible, as what disciples saw, the same way, people shall SEE Jesus, the same person which was ascend back into heaven, shall descend from heaven at His coming. 'You' does not limited to the disciples only, also, it apply to us, anyone of us who is still alive and remain shall see Christ coming in the clouds with power and glory. His coming shall not be a secert and quiet. His coming shall be a public and noisy that every person of the world shall see Him coming. 

You say:


> The problem you have though is that you beg the question. You *assumed* that ALL the times it refers to Jesus comming must be talking the same thing. That's what we're debating. You cite Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7. The problem is that those have time texts asccotiated with them, whereas Acts does not. Therefore, this was a totaly irrelevant conclusion you argued for. We all know Christ is comming back in the future.



Disciples already heard Christ told them, that every person of the world shall see Christ comes in the clouds with power anf glory - Matt 24:30 about little over a month earlier before two angels told them of Acts 1:9-11. 

Also, John, the Beloved wrote Rev. 1:7, that same perosn who was still alive, probably, he was in his old age around 90's, he already hear from Jesus' word of Matt. 24:30 about 60 years earlier. He understood of Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 both are same, also, the fact of both are same, because of the same person - Jesus Christ which told John, that He shall come again in physical and visible. 

Also, there is no conflict of Acts 1:9-11 with Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7, because all disciples include John, the Beloved understood that Christ told them, He shall come again in physical and visible. 

I think, what in your mind of Matt. 24:34-'this' & vs. 36 -'that' , it show us, there is separate of two events. Actually, we should know hermeneutic Rule - interpreting in contextually. You cannot separate verse 36 of word, 'that' from verse 34 of word, 'this' into two different events. 

The context of Matt. 24:32-44 teaching us, when we see the signs(fig tree) are appearing, these show us His coming draw near, this final generation shall not passed till all things must be fulfilled always speak of His coming and the end of the world into one same passage.


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul, 

Also, I am aware of many Christians are misunderstanding what they interpreting the prophecies in the Old Testament on the difference between first advent & second advent. 

Not every passage in the Old Testament talking about the second advent. 

There are about 70% to 80% of the prophecies in O.T. are already fulfilled speak of the first advent, also during the period of Israel's rebellion in the Old Testament period. 

For a good example - Jer. 30:7- 'Jacob's trouble', often, disp/pretrib interpreting this verse speak of future seven year of tribulation period for Israel. But, they ignore the whole context of Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30 talking about the prophecy of Babylon invaded Jersualem, and Israel fell into captivity under Babylon, then 70 years later, they were freed from captivity, return back to their land again. Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled in year around 420 B.C. That was over 2,400 years ago. Jer. 30:7 is not talking about seven year of tribulation period for modern nation-Israel. 

I did reading many passages in the Old Testament on the prophecies already fulfilled speak of judgment fall upon Israel because of rebellion against God. So, Assyrians took over Israel, then later, Babylon took over Judah. 

But, when we focus on Matt. 24:27-31, Christ was not discuss about the past of the history on the Old Testament period. Christ speaks of his future coming. Christ clearly telling us, many people shall be shake and scare when see cosmic disturbance up in the sky, many shall hide their face from the face of Jesus Christ according to Rev. 6:12-17. Obivous, Christ tells us, the sight of men shall see cosmic disturbance in the sky, these shall cause people become scare and flee hide from the face of Jesus Christ, because He shall judge people. 

If suppose, full preterists saying Matt. 24:27-31 is 'spiritualize' then, my question, HOW CAN people see without any sign??


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## andreas

***He was referring to the generation of his listeners. Show me when the bible says "this" generation and does not refer to the generation being spoken to?***


"The blood of all the prophets,which was shed from the foundation of the world,may be required OF THIS GENERATION".Luke11:50


Are you telling us that ALL those people standing there, including the apostle,were quilty of the blood of all the prophets? No .The believers standing there,including the apostle,will not be judged,for they have been made clean with the blood of the Lamb.Each of us is responsible for his own sins and nobody else's. Deuteronomy 24:16.
Why should those people standing there pay for the blood of the prophets?Those who killed the prophets were already dead.They were not standing there when Luke was talking.This generation is the generation of evil.

andreas.


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## andreas

***I say:tell me how you will see a 9 ft object that descends in Jerusalem,from here in America***



We will see the Lord on His second coming.God the father,and God the spirit, are spirit,but God the son took upon Him human nature,and a glorified body.We do not see Him visibly now because He is in heaven ,but we will see Him on His second coming.
It does not matter where you are,you will see Him, for God is omnipresent.



And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.Ex.33:11

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.Gen.32:30 

Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? i Cor.9:1

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.Isa 6:5

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb 12:14


When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col.3:4

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Tim.6:14

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:7

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:27


And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.Luke 21:27-28

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat.24:30

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds Mat 14:62

andreas.


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## Dan....

Andreas,



> It does not matter where you are,you will see Him, for God is omnipresent.



I agree that when Christ comes again, every eye will see Him (i.e., Rev 1:7 is future).

However, I disagree with your reasoning that the reason every eye will see Him is because He is omnipresent. The Second Person of the Godhead is omnipresent, true. The Man (i.e., the physical body of Christ) is not omnipresent. The fact that every eye shall see Him is not because of an omnipresent appearance of the Man Christ Jesus. Every eye will see Him because God will cause every eye to see Him in the general resurrection at the Last Day.


[Edited on 2-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## andreas

*** The fact that every eye shall see Him is not because of an omnipresent appearance of the Man Christ Jesus***

It is because of the omnipresence of God.One person, two natures ,which can not be separated.

andreas


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## Dan....

Paul,

Are you saying that we will not see Christ when He returns on the Last Day?

The apostle, by Divine inspiration, said that every eye will see Him. Far be it from us to question that. If God said every eye will see Him, then it matters not whether we can physically explain how that will happen. 

Everyone will stand before Him in judgment on the Last Day. Do you not agree?

If you agree, then would it not be physically possible for the ones (i.e., everyone) being judged to see Him?


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## andreas

***so you see god then?*** 

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 1:18

No man hath seen God, but many have seen His only begotten Son who declares the very will of His Father to His people.I will see the Lord Jesus ,for He has a glorified body.

andreas.


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## Dan....

Andreas,

You're talking in circles here.

You said that every eye shall see Christ because He is omnipresent. Then you say that we do not see Him because He is God, Who has not been seen by the human eye; only, we are able to see the incarnate Son. But didn't you just say that He is omnipresent? If the Incarnate Son is omnipresent, then why can't we see Him now? Is the omni-present Incarnation of God invisible? If so, does that make Him not a Man? If not, then why can't we see Him?

[Edited on 2-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## Dan....

Matthew 25:32:
And *before Him* shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats.

2 Corinthians 5:10:
For we must all appear *before the judgment seat of Christ*; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:12 - 
And I saw the dead small and great stand *before God*: and the books were opened....


All men stand before Christ on the Last Day. That's all I have to prove, because your statement earlier in the thread was, 



> "My argument: You say ALL MANKIND will see Christ's physical body. I say: tell me how you will see a 9 ft object that descends in Jerusalem from here in America."



...it would be physically possible to see the One whom you are standing before.


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## andreas

***andreas you are going in circles***

We have seen so much that just a few years ago would have been impossible. We now understand there are no limits. The impossible becomes the possible. Mysteries are revealed. The power of God and the knowledge that He is obviously willing to share with us is incredible.I may be going in circles ,but none of us know the "how". ....You say that ,every eye will see him because we will be standing infront of Him.There are billions of people and a small figure of a man.How are they all going to see him?
It should be enough to know that every eye will see him.We are told so.How ? We may not have the answer ,but then, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honour of kings to search it out. Pro.25:2

andreas.


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## Dan....

Andreas,



> It should be enough to know that every eye will see him.



It is enough for me. Rev 1:7 is pretty straight forward and clear in my estimation.

My listing the above verses only goes to back up Rev 1:7, lest one think that this is an isolated proof-text. Paul wrote:



> Now, I may be wrong but where does it say that every eye shall see him besides our texts with time texts associated with it.



The listing of the above verses is evidence alongside of Rev 1:7 that all mankind will see Christ when He returns.

We don't need to explain how that will be possible. God's Word has spoken. It will happen.


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## Dan....

Paul,

Rev 1:7 clearly says that every eye will see Him. So, in your understanding thereof, when exactly shall every eye see Him? Can you produce some documentation that every eye did see Him in a specific calendar year?

The scriptures say that every eye will see Him, and that every man will stand before Him in judgment on the Last Day.

I don't know what more is to be said, other than Amen.


[Edited on 2-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## DeafPosttrib

Paul, 

You have to accept what Rev. 1:7 actual saying. Reading this verse is not difficult for you to understand. I understand Rev. 1:7 speaks of every person of the world, not just for the Jews of Israel only, also, every persons of all nations of the world shall see Christ coming in the clouds. I believe Rev. 1:7 speaks loudly of visibly and physical coming of Christ. Christ's coming shall not be a secert, but his coming shall be very public and noisy. 

Rev. 1:7 is much same as Matt. 24:30 speaks of every person of the world shall see Christ comes in the clouds, not just for Jews of Isreal only, also, to every persons of all nations will see Christ comes in their sight. 

Later, I will discuss more about word, 'generation'. recently I learned new something about 'generation', what Christ actual saying according to Matt. 24:34. 

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by DeafPosttrib_
> Paul,
> 
> You have to accept what Rev. 1:7 actual saying. Reading this verse is not difficult for you to understand. I understand Rev. 1:7 speaks of every person of the world, not just for the Jews of Israel only, also, every persons of all nations of the world shall see Christ coming in the clouds. I believe Rev. 1:7 speaks loudly of visibly and physical coming of Christ. Christ's coming shall not be a secert, but his coming shall be very public and noisy.
> 
> Rev. 1:7 is much same as Matt. 24:30 speaks of every person of the world shall see Christ comes in the clouds, not just for Jews of Isreal only, also, to every persons of all nations will see Christ comes in their sight.
> 
> Later, I will discuss more about word, 'generation'. recently I learned new something about 'generation', what Christ actual saying according to Matt. 24:34.
> 
> In Christ
> Rev. 22:20 -Amen!



Then why didn't Christ come soon? He gave them a charge that was never realized in their lifetimes despite the internal implications that it would be realized in their lifetime.


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## Dan....

Paul,

Mt 12:36 implies that each one will individually stand to be judged:



> But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.



If each man stands to give account individually, and if that account is given before Christ, then it must necessarily follow that each man will individually stand before Christ.

Anyway, I'm off to read up on what the historicists, idealists and the futurists say about "Surely I come quickly".

Thats all for now.

Thanks for the discussion




[Edited on 3-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## Dan....

Paul,

One more thing:

The idealists would probably not have any problem with "the things which must shortly come to pass", and "for the time is at hand."

Remember, an idealist would find this to just as applicable to the first century reader as it is to todays reader.

[Edited on 3-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## DeafPosttrib

> Then why didn't Christ come soon?



Christ's purpose is, He desires that we spread the gospel to all nations to hear it. 

What IF Christ already come in 70 A.D. Then, I would not have born in year 1969!!! Then, none of deaf person would have be saved by then! Thank God that He put me on earth that I was born in year 1969, for the purpose that He commands me to preaching the gospel to the world and also to deaf people too. Also, I thnak God that I am chosen by Christ through salvation, so, I am carry the gospel to the world. That why God called me to bring to gospel to lost people.

There are so PLENTY of people over the world not yet hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are so long way to go to reach people to hear the gospel. 

About 80% of deaf 230 million of world population not yet hear the gospel now. That why we are so long way to go! 

Matt 24:14 tells us the gospel must spread over the world then, the end shall come.

My question is, if suppose Christ already come in 70 A.D. did Indians already hear the gospel according to Matt. 24:14???


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## Dan....

Paul, 
Could the verse not be understood as, "On the day in which He comes on the clouds, every eye will see Him" rather than, "Every eye will see Him the moment He comes on the clouds". It does not specify exactly the moment that every eye will see Him.

Nevertheless, on a Day on which all mankind will stand individually before Christ, I expect many extraordinary things will happen; so it matters not whether we think it to be physically possible or not.

[Edited on 3-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by DeafPosttrib_
> 
> 
> 
> Then why didn't Christ come soon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christ's purpose is, He desires that we spread the gospel to all nations to hear it.
> 
> What IF Christ already come in 70 A.D. Then, I would not have born in year 1969!!! Then, none of deaf person would have be saved by then! Thank God that He put me on earth that I was born in year 1969, for the purpose that He commands me to preaching the gospel to the world and also to deaf people too. Also, I thnak God that I am chosen by Christ through salvation, so, I am carry the gospel to the world. That why God called me to bring to gospel to lost people.
> 
> There are so PLENTY of people over the world not yet hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are so long way to go to reach people to hear the gospel.
> 
> About 80% of deaf 230 million of world population not yet hear the gospel now. That why we are so long way to go!
> 
> Matt 24:14 tells us the gospel must spread over the world then, the end shall come.
Click to expand...


If the gospel will spread throughout the world and convert large numbers of people (see Christ's kingdom parables), can we expect their lives to change?
If we can expect their lives to change (and live according to the gospel), wouldn't that give us the reason to hope for a more glorious society, a Christian society?


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## Dan....

Paul,

I didn't say that was my interpretation, I only threw that out as a thought. At this point, to me the thought doesn't seem any more extreme than the preteristic thought that every eye did see Him through the circumstances of A.D. 70. In the end, the verse still says that every eye will see Him, and if that means that every eye will see Him coming with clouds, then so be it. We don't have to physically explain it. 

I read the highlighted verses. I understand how you interpret those verses; I have an idea how the idealists interpret them; I'll have to check on the futurists and historicists.



[Edited on 3-12-2004 by Dan....]


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## Dan....

Matthew Henry, the historicist, totally skips over the time elements of chapter 1....


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## andreas

***AFTER the descension of Christ back to earth bodily"***

What saith the scriptures?

"when the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and when the dead in Christ shall rise first, and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we forever be with the Lord." 1st Thes. 4:17 

Where did you get the "descend back to earth bodily"? I assume you are talking about the rupture.

andreas.


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## andreas

***So they will still be in their graves***



The ressurection takes place on the last day.

For the just,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at The Last Day!" john 6:39


"And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at The Last Day!" john 6:40


"No man can come to Me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at The Last Day!"john 6:44 


"Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at The Last Day!" john 6:54


"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at The Last Day!" john 11:24


And the unjust. 



"He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in The Last Day!" john 12:48.

So,the ressurection of both the just and the unjust takes place on the last day and then the judgment.

Who are these people still in their graves?

andreas.


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## andreas

***bodies have *location.* Omniprensence does not have location.***


Yes, matter does have location,but to my knowledge we have no idea how a glorified body ,inseperable from a divine nature in the person of Christ behaves.Our finite minds can not comprehend the infinite.

andreas.


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## andreas

***i have no clue what you are talking about***


This is what you said:

Remember, the resurrection takes place AFTER the descension of Christ back to earth bodily. So, they would still be in their graves. Now, how did they (will they) see him "comming with the clouds?" 

SO THE QUESTION IS, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE STILL IN THEIR GRAVES?


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## DeafPosttrib

I'm back. 

Paul,

I missed your sentence.

I got it what you saying as Andreas replied back to you. 

You says, after desended as Jesus shall come back bodily. But, all who in the graves, they cannot see Christ back while they in the graves. 

I ask you a simple question.

What happen to Christians' soul, when they already died? Where are they right now? 

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


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## andreas

.*** So, you need to show that, at the same time Christ comes, all the dead are raised. Even if you do, so what.***

You say that we do not address your points.What you just stated above defeats all points. EVEN IF WE PROVE SOMETHING TO YOU IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ,FOR YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND.

andreas.


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## andreas

At the last day when the Lord comes,there will be nobody in the grave.The graves will be empty.Scripture says so.What is your problem about people in the graves.There will not be any bodies in the grave on the last day.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
MATTHEW 24:29-31

The believers will be raptured at the end. 
We read in I Thessalonians 4 about the believers who are living when Christ returns, and God says in verses 16-17:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

John 6:39-40 tells us:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should
raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The resurrection of the dead is the last day.
We read in I Thessalonians 4 ,that the believers who are still living on earth will be changed into their glorified body and caught up to be with Christ in the air. This will all happen on the last day.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day".JOHN 6:44

God insists that the resurrection of the believers will be the last day. 

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day".JOHN 6:54

There is no question at all that the resurrection of the bodies of the believers will be the last day. I Thessalonians 4 clearly teaches that when the dead in Christ are resurrected, then those of us who are still living will be caught up with them to be with Christ in the air.


"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."1 CORR.15:51-52

The world will go on until the last day. Right before the end ,there will be the great tribulation. Immediately at the end of the great tribulation, Christ will come, the dead in Christ will be resurrected, and the believers who are still living on earth will be caught up with them to be with Christ in the air.
AT THE SAME TIME, the unsaved who have died will be resurrected to stand for judgment along with all the unsaved who are still living on earth. 

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" .JOHN 5:28-29

Resurrection takes place at the last day,for the believers and non believers,and since they are all resurrected, they will all see the Lord. AT THE LAST DAY.

andreas.


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## andreas

***No, you showed that they rise on the same DAY, not TIME.***

THE LAST DAY implies time,does it not?

andreas.


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## andreas

***Andreas, Christ comes on clouds, dead are raised. Dead are not raised before he comes on the clouds. So, you need to show that, at the same time Christ comes, all the dead are raised***

I have shown you that all the dead are raised on the LAST day,and whichever way you look at it ,LAST, implies,and is time. BY DEFINITION,any duration, distinct from eternity is time.

andreas.


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## andreas

***You're not getting it, I guess.***

Can you please put it in simple terms what i am supposed to get?

andreas.


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## andreas

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . . . and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24: 27, 30)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. (Rev 1:7)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mk 13:26-27)

The unsaved dead will also receive their eternal bodies on the LAST day as well.
RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.

JOHN 5:28-29
ACTS24:15
DAN.12:1-2

You keep babbling about 10 am 11 am 2 pm etc etc etc.


EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM ON THE LAST DAY,BOTH THE SAVED AND THE UNSAVED.WE ARE NOT TOLD THE TIME.IT DOES NOT MATTER.WE ARE NOT TOLD HOW.IT DOES NOT MATTER.WE ARE TOLD EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM.THAT SHOULD SUFFICE.

Matt.24:27,30,Rev1:7,Mk13:26-27.

Put on your spiritual glasses and see.



andreas.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by andreas]


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## andreas

Preterism holds that the second coming of Christ promised in Scripture was exclusively the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was the end of the ages prophesied by Scripture. Christ came then; the dead were raised then; the final judgment took place then; creation was renewed then. 
The term Preterism itself derives from a Latin word meaning 'past.' To expect a visible, bodily coming of Jesus, a resurrection of the dead, a final judgment, and destruction of the present cosmos in the future on the basis of any prophecy of Scripture is MISTAKEN. All is past. 

I like to ask you Paul,What are our prospects?What about the prospects of the believers and their children after 70 AD?Your doctrine puts the whole book of Revelation to the past,and it strips us of salvation.

andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Andreas,

I've been watching this post since Adam first started it and, theological positions aside, Paul is right -you've consistently missed (his) points of contention with your position so much so that I have to conclude that you are not even reading what he has been posting.

Even if your position were correct, you make it very difficult to take you seriously because of this. It seems almost as if you're doing it as a joke at times.


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## ReformedWretch

> Your last post shows that you've just wasted a week of my life.



While I smiled at that I feel bad for Paul.

Take heart Paul, you helped change my life completely! Some of us appreciate your efforts.


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## RamistThomist

Paul, you also helped me distinguish between coming/advent and time/day.

Thanks,



ANdreas,
The prospects for us and our children are total victory, gospel triumph, and seeing pagans bow the knee to King Jesus.


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## andreas

***ANDREAS: Matthew 24,Mark 13,and Luke 21,are speaking about the end of the world,and if they are talking about the end of the world why should we focus on the events of 70 AD?

ME: It says that these things will happen to the generation Jesus is speaking to.***


I still feel that Matthew 24,Luke 21 and Mk 13, are talking about the end of the world,and the generation Jesus is talking about,is the evil generation throughout the age, and not the generation of the Jews at that time.Sorry my messages are cryptic ,and sorry you do not want to take them seriously.I quess i failed in my mission as well.

andreas.


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## SmokingFlax

Andreas,

I apologize if my post implied that I didn't take you seriously (I knew I should have worded it differently) -I want to but it's VERY difficult to follow your train of thought many times. 

My current end times views are very much in flux at the moment and I'm slowly going about learning what each school of thought has to say about it before I jump right in like I did with dispensationalism. There are obvious strong points in each position as far as I can tell ...but I wouldn't bet my soul on any of them at this point.

As such, don't think that I am condemning you here.

I think that there is going to be a completely apostate generation at the very end also...yet at the same time what greater crime could a generation commit than to crucify the very Son of God? It is hard for me to even comprehend something worse.


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> Andreas,
> I've been watching this post since Adam first started it and, theological positions aside, Paul is right -you've consistently missed (his) points of contention with your position so much so that I have to conclude that you are not even reading what he has been posting.




Andreas,
I tend to agree with this and some other feedback that's been given. It sounds like you've been doing something that most of us, at one time or another, have done. It seems like you're viewing Paul's doctrine through your own eyes instead of his. You're arguing against a position that I don't think he holds. Paul would probably join you in arguing against the position you're opposing.

Just to help refocus the discussion (and to confirm that you're hearing what Paul is saying), I was wondering if you could do me a favor? Can you take a stab at summarizing Paul's position? Doing that, and then having Paul say "yes, that's what I'm saying", I think might be helpful. 

Just a thought,
Bob


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## andreas

Perhaps you can tell me what he believes, as according to quite a few of you i missed the point.

andreas.


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by andreas_
> Perhaps you can tell me what he believes, as according to quite a few of you i missed the point.


Ok, I´ll take a stab at it. This is how I understand where Paul's coming from. He can correct me if I'm mistaken.

Paul believes that there are two comings of Jesus spoken of in the scriptures being discussed. One is Jesus´ coming in judgment in 70 AD and the other is at the end of the world when all creation stands before God at the great judgment. He is a partial preterist and differs with the full preterist in that he acknowledges Jesus´ future coming at the end of the world.

Paul believes that much of the Matthew 24 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21) discourse is a continuation of what was spoken of in Matthew 23, where, after the scathing condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus said in Matt 23:38, "œBehold, your house is left unto you desolate". This prompted the disciples' comments about how beautifully the temple was adorned, to which Jesus continued the thought of Matt 23:38 that the temple would be torn down and not one stone would be left upon another. Paul believes that the conversation about the temple was about the temple. The context doesn't warrant changing the meaning to represent something different. (unlike the John 2 passage where the scriptures clearly says in verse 21 "But he spake of the temple of his body")

Paul believes that Jesus was speaking to his disciples during the Olivet discourse. When Jesus used the word "œyou" during the discourse, Paul believes that it refers to the disciples, not the future church or the future Jews (as many dispensationalists say). Paul believes that when Jesus gave warnings, he was warning those who he was having a conversation with. 

As I´ve said, Paul doesn´t hold to the full preterist view. In the Matthew 24 passage, Paul sees a break between what happened in 70 AD and what is still future in Matthew 24:36, where it says:

Matthew 24: 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Paul affirms that Jesus will return bodily, in agreement with Acts 1:10.
"¦This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."


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## andreas

If the word "generation" was referring to those who heard Him the day of His teaching, He would have been saying that His coming would be before the last man of the generation who heard Him that day, died. But, by Jesus' own admission, He did not know "the day or the hour" of His return (Matt. 24:36). 

andreas.


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## blhowes

Paul,
It seems you would share a good bit in common with full preterists, yet at some juncture you part company and come to drastically different conclusions. Many would say that the full preterist position is heresy, or at least deviates considerably from orthodox Christianity. As you've worked out the details of passages like Matthew 24, etc., what 'warnings along the way' have you seen that have kept you from following the path of the full preterists? Are there certain key passages that have prevented you from going that route?


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## andreas

You interpret this generation to be one that is concurrent with the tme of Christ,and then you suddenly shift gears, and state ,after verse 36 we have a change, and you justify this by saying that prior to verse 36 there is violence and after we have partying.i do not call "the flood came and took them all away" a partying mode. 
andreas.


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## andreas

If the Rapture has taken place, then the resurrection has also taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 ,writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. He links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. When the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET,AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS,FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. MATT.24:31

You insist that the events of Matthew 24,and prior to verse 36, are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was the generation concurrent with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago.You must show that the resurrection has also taken place. So the question is how do you show that?

andreas.


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## RamistThomist

Paul,
I have learned volumes from you on apologetics and eschatology. Thanks!


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## Dan....

Hey Paul,

A couple of quick questions for you:

Although you say that most of the prophesy of the New Testament has been fulfilled, do you find a general equity in the fulfilled prophesy that may be applicable to Christians post-A.D.70?

For example, could a partial preterist of the 16th century have said, "Although the beast of Rev 13 had its primary fulfilment in Rome and Nero, the pope of the Roman church is also a "beast" of sorts, etc..." ???


Second: I received the book you recommended "The Returning King" by Vern Poythress today (So far I am really enjoying it). I placed an order for "More than Conquerors" by William Hendriksen (also Idealistic) today. If I were to order a book by a partial preterist, what would be a recommended read? I have read "Postmillennialism: Eschatalogy of Hope" by Keith Matthison in which he touches on Partial Preterism. Except for that and a cople of internet articles (and posts on the Puritan Board), I have not read much on the Preteristic view. What do you recommend?


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## andreas

****i must avoid temptation and not respond anymore.****


It is up to you Paul.

{Comment deleted by moderator - do not make warnings of damnable heresy with no proof}



[Edited on 12/8/2004 by fredtgreco]


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## andreas

****That is not referring to what you call a rapture.****


"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with Power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30


VERSE 31, IS TELLING US ABOUT GATHERING THE ELECT .GATHERING THEM WHERE?TO BE WITH THE LORD.

God is telling us that the rapture is immediately after the tribulation,and we have man saying ,NO it is not.It is clearly stated in Matt 24:29-31,and again in 1 Thess.4:16

HE THAT HATH AN EAR LET HIM HEAR.

andreas.


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## blhowes

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 

Paul (or anybody else),
I've often heard (in dispensational circles) that the tribulation spoken of here couldn't possibly be the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD because what was experienced by the Jews during the holocaust surpassed what was experienced by the Jews in 70 AD. Any thoughts?


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> Furthermore, people should read about how the Christians were persecuted. The were used to light garden parties by Nero. They were thrown into pits and had animals eat them. Nero would dress up like a wild animal and eat Christians genatalia. So, it was pretty bad. But again, it's qualaty not quanity.


That makes sense. I don't want to minimize in any way the atrocities of the holocaust, but from the few things I've read from Josephus' works, it'd be hard to believe things could get much worse than what happened there.


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## andreas

"I pray Not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." john 17:15

Christians are not to be taken out of the evil world.They are to endure tribulation.We are told we are going to have tribulation, but to be of good cheer for Christ overcame that.We are told that in the world we are going to be persecuted as He was persecuted,We are told that the servant is not greater than the master,and as He was persecuted so we shall be persecuted.Tribulation applies to all of us not just the FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS.

As for the letters to the seven churches,Jesus himself said,"he that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit said unto the CHURCHES".His messages though addressed each to a particular church,were intended for ALL. 
There is a claim of universal attention attached to each of the epistles to the seven churches.These seven churches represent the entire church during the entire dispensation.The warning to the seven churches was to them and to us today and every church in between.We must be faithful and we will receive the crown of life.

andreas.

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by andreas]


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## Dan....

Andreas,

I do not believe that anyone here has denied that there is a general equity of the apocalyptic literature that applies to all ages. (In other words, I'd expect Mr. Manata to Amen most, if not all of what you just said).


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## ReformedWretch

I want to say right now that I have enjoyed this thread and learned alot (thanks again Paul). This is by far the most attention any of my threads here has ever gotten!


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## andreas

The whole idea of the forum is:

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."pro.27:17

andreas.


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## Anton Bruckner

Paul can you recommend a good history book on Nero's reign and his persecution of Christians?

I just finished reading Josephus, War of the Jews which gave me a good historical perspective of the first century, a book on Nero would do well to boosting my understanding.

much thanks.

[Edited on 12-9-2004 by Slippery]


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## RamistThomist

I just got finished reading _Roots of the Western Tradition_--a survey of ancient history--and the author sympathizes with Nero and Diocletian for killing the Christians!


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> I just got finished reading _Roots of the Western Tradition_--a survey of ancient history--and the author sympathizes with Nero and Diocletian for killing the Christians!



Oy vey!


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## ReformedWretch

YIKES!


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## SmokingFlax

"I just got finished reading Roots of the Western Tradition--a survey of ancient history--and the author sympathizes with Nero and Diocletian for killing the Christians! "

Ya' don't suppose he'd like to bring back the good ol' days huh?


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## Anton Bruckner

It seems like Gentry is highly recommended. I am reading through Sproul's book, the Last Days according to Jesus, and He is quoting Gentry extensively for the Partial Preterist position.


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