# Great Church Sign



## puritan lad (Jul 15, 2009)

Rick Warren should take notes...







From Anti-Islam church sign stirs up community outrage


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## Rich Koster (Jul 15, 2009)

Sometimes the truth _is_ offensive.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 15, 2009)

Well, it is true.


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## Caroline (Jul 15, 2009)

Sometimes the truth doesn't have to be as offensive as possible just for the sake of offending people. I see no point to this. I don't think it's like a Muslim is going to drive by and say, "Really? Oh, well, in that case, I'd better become a Christian!"

It's the equivalent of an immature kid writing, "Trixie is a *****!" on the bathroom wall. Even if it's true, it's just not appropriate.


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## Quickened (Jul 15, 2009)

Caroline said:


> Sometimes the truth doesn't have to be as offensive as possible just for the sake of offending people. I see no point to this. I don't think it's like a Muslim is going to drive by and say, "Really? Oh, well, in that case, I'd better become a Christian!"
> 
> It's the equivalent of an immature kid writing, "Trixie is a *****!" on the bathroom wall. Even if it's true, it's just not appropriate.



Agreed. What is the goal or the expected outcome of the sign?

If you want to reach out and spread the gospel to people that are islamic that it great but it would be more of a benefit to use a charitable and loving tone as opposed to coming across as a bigot.

It didnt work too well for phelps and i dont think its going to work good in this situation.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 15, 2009)

However, they might have something else wrong.

"Our Land needs strong churches that understand and fulfill God’s vision of restoration and reformation, churches that are able to handle the revival we will see this century with the apostolic anointing, and bring Godly changes to our entire society." (from their website)

This rings of New Apostolic Reformation


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## Caroline (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes, they are affiliated with Rick Joyner (according to their site).

I suspected as much as soon as I saw it, because it just looks like something Pentecostals would do ... I haven't checked into exactly why the sign was posted (if it even says on the site), but I have no doubt that someone felt a 'leading from the Lord' about it. I'm sure it's supposed to start a big revival or something as they 'step out in faith'... *sigh* Silly Pentes.


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## Rogerant (Jul 15, 2009)

Why single Islam out though as being of the Devil? For there are only really two beliefs in this world. One of Grace, that is from God, and all the others, that are various forms of unbelief, that are of the Devil.


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## puritan lad (Jul 15, 2009)

I have no problem with the offensiveness of the sign. Truth should always over ride pragmatism. It there a better way to say it? Perhaps. But it needs to be said, especially in that community (with the apparent outcry).

As far as singling out Islam. I agree. Didn't someone say the same thing about New Covenant Judaism (John 8:39-44)?


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## Tripel (Jul 15, 2009)

puritan lad said:


> Truth should always over ride pragmatism.



Why are you narrowing it down to just those options? What about charity, compassion, and love?



> it needs to be said, especially in that community



Does it really? Please explain. And why does it need to be said on church sign? 
What if the sign said, "All you nonChristians are going to burn in hell." Does that need to be said too???

This is not a "great" church sign.


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## puritan lad (Jul 15, 2009)

Point well taken, though we are assuming that this message wasn't done out of love, as was Jesus message to the Judaists. I appreciate the strong line drawn in the sand, especially with the recent ecumenicism efforts of Rick Warren and others.

As far as it being on a sign, good point. I'm no big fan of "bumper sticker evangelism" myself. Better to proclaim it from the pulpit.

"All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?


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## Sven (Jul 15, 2009)

We really need to take our Lord's advice who said that we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, and Paul's advice who said that as much as it is possible for us to live at peace with all men. This sign, and much of bumpersticker evangelism, disregards the advice of both Paul and Christ.


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## Caroline (Jul 15, 2009)

> Truth should always over ride pragmatism.



People who say this usually really mean that they feel that they should be able to say whatever they want whenever they want to say it and however they want to say it.

Look, there are a lot of things we could say that are true. But we should always speak the truth in love. Love is patient, love is kind ... Without love we are resounding gongs and clanging cymbals (I Cor. 13).

Church signs don't have to say everything just because it's true. Otherwise, I'd be looking for signs that say, "Our pastor is really boring when he talks politics!" or "Our church budget didn't work out as well as we had hoped!" or "Fran Jones is a gossip!" 

There are times and places for saying things, even if they are true, and Christianity calls for restraint in speech so that we do not hurt other people to no purpose. Speaking truth should always be tempered with wisdom.

James 1:26: If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

PS What Sven said. We posted about the same time.


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## he beholds (Jul 15, 2009)

puritan lad said:


> .
> 
> "All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?



I think that is the need for the Gospel, but not at all the good news!


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## Southern Twang (Jul 15, 2009)

Though the tact and taste of the sign is questionable, the statement is still true. Islam is a very big problem for Christians. Not other religion is as hostile to the Gospel.


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## Pergamum (Jul 15, 2009)

This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 15, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.



Yep.


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## puritan lad (Jul 15, 2009)

I stand corrected. I guess I have an overreaction to some of the modern approaches to this issue, and found the straightforward truth of the sign quite refreshing.

But there are better ways of saying this, and the use of the sign is questionable at best.


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## Mark Hettler (Jul 15, 2009)

Caroline said:


> I suspected as much as soon as I saw it, because it just looks like something Pentecostals would do ... I haven't checked into exactly why the sign was posted (if it even says on the site), but I have no doubt that someone felt a 'leading from the Lord' about it. I'm sure it's supposed to start a big revival or something as they 'step out in faith'... *sigh* Silly Pentes.



This post is about as offensive to Pentecostals as the original post would be to Muslims. For every Pentecostal who would advocate something like this sign, I could introduce you to 10 who would be offended by it. And for every Pentecostal pastor who would confirm someone's "leading of the Lord" in this direction, I could introduce you to 10 who would reject such a "leading" because it is out of accord with the character of Christ as revealed in scripture.


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## Idelette (Jul 15, 2009)

Sven said:


> We really need to take our Lord's advice who said that we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, and Paul's advice who said that as much as it is possible for us to live at peace with all men. This sign, and much of bumpersticker evangelism, disregards the advice of both Paul and Christ.



I agree! It's the gospel itself that is an offense and a stumbling block, but we are not to cause offense in other ways--for the very sake that the gospel might be proclaimed!

"Give no offense either to Jews or Greeks or the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of many, so that they may be saved." 1 Corin 10:32-33


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## Curt (Jul 15, 2009)

Southern Twang said:


> Though the tact and taste of the sign is questionable, the statement is still true. Islam is a very big problem for Christians. Not other religion is as hostile to the Gospel.



Actually, statism, is very hostile to the Gospel and Christians.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 15, 2009)

The reason for doing this (from their site)

"The Sign

Frequently asked questions
Tell us about the church, Dove World Outreach Center and about what the belief of the church is?
We are a New Testament, Charismatic, Non-Denominational Church that believes in the whole Bible and that we are to act in response to the word of God in order to change the times we are living in. Those times have gotten further and futher away from God; full of deception like abortion and same sex marriages.
Why would the Church put up such a sign?
To expose Islam for what it is. It is a violent and oppressive religion that is trying to mascarade itself as a religion of peace, seeking to deceive our society.
What is the reason or message the Church wants to get out with a sign such as that?
The message of the truth that there is only one way to God, only one way to salvation, and that is through the blood of Jesus. Through the repenting of your sins and being born again. It is time that all Christians unite, stop being passive and selfish and stand up and fight for the truth.
What is your response to those offended by the sign or the message of the sign?
The truth should never offend us. We should embrace the truth. That is the foundation of our country and that is the only way to true freedom. Islam is a lie based upon lies and deceptions and fear. In Muslim countries, if you preach the gospel or convert to Christianity - you will be killed. That is the type of religion it is."


I think they are guilty of something I sometimes do. They want to make a statement, but use too few words to make it properly. The viewed sign is an incomplete expression of the thoughts and facts behind it.


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## Claudiu (Jul 15, 2009)

The sign can be truth...but it really makes us Christians look bad. Other signs that come to mind that are similar to this are the God hate's (informal way of saying homosexuals). 

These signs don't only make that specific church look bad, but Christianity as a whole. People just clump us all in one big group. 

I think this hurts us, more than help us achieve anything.


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## Rogerant (Jul 15, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> The sign can be truth...but it really makes us Christians look bad. Other signs that come to mind that are similar to this are the God hate's (informal way of saying homosexuals).
> 
> These signs don't only make that specific church look bad, but Christianity as a whole. People just clump us all in one big group.
> 
> I think this hurts us, more than help us achieve anything.



I agree. The Christian message in the New Covenenant is supposed to be what us christians are FOR (the Gospel)

Rather than what we are AGAINST (the law)

The popular evangelical message of the day is that we are against gay marriage and homosexuality. When the message of the chruch is supposed to be "ATONEMENT ACCOMPLISHED"!


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## Quickened (Jul 15, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.



Well put pergs!


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## Christusregnat (Jul 15, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.



Actually, the Muslims I've debated appreciate it when you take a hard line and don't mamby pamgy around. If you are mamby pamby, then they conclude that your religion must be effeminate and worthless. The conversation always gets deeper when I tell them that their god is a devil and is unjust.

That said, the effeminacy of American culture would make it particularly offensive to non-Muslims.

Cheers,


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## Reformed Thomist (Jul 15, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> The sign can be truth...but it really makes us Christians look bad. Other signs that come to mind that are similar to this are the God hate's (informal way of saying homosexuals).



I always feel like writing "Analogically speaking" at the bottom of their signs. The last thing the church needs is more anthropomorphism!


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## Caroline (Jul 15, 2009)

Mark Hettler said:


> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > I suspected as much as soon as I saw it, because it just looks like something Pentecostals would do ... I haven't checked into exactly why the sign was posted (if it even says on the site), but I have no doubt that someone felt a 'leading from the Lord' about it. I'm sure it's supposed to start a big revival or something as they 'step out in faith'... *sigh* Silly Pentes.
> ...



Well, the difference is that this is something that I post on an internet forum. lol. I wouldn't put 'Pentecostals are stupid' on a church sign, even though it's true (and yes, as a Pentecostal, I was very VERY stupid). But if you are looking for a retraction here, you won't get one. Not every Pentecostal may agree with this sign, but the theology of new revelation does make stupidity a lot more likely, because whatever someone dreams up in their heads can be a 'Word from God'. Hey, I'm glad it's only a sign. It's when autistic kids get suffocated to death by a pastor trying to cast out the 'spirit of autism' that I get really mad ...


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## christiana (Jul 15, 2009)

I dont believe the best way to witness for what Christ has done, is doing and will do is by being nasty, critical and blaming about the beliefs we disagree with. If we diligently share Christ, the whole Truth of scripture and what it says we are doing what He asked. Even when Paul confronted the Corinthians he wasnt ugly about it but instructive, giving direction and correction so they would benefit, but not become hostile.


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Jul 15, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.
> ...



You tell muslims that their "god is a devil"? I am dying to know what their remarks have been when you have said such a thing.... In all seriousness. Why would you say such a thing? What meaningful argument can come from telling them their "god is a devil"? What point are you trying to prove when you make such a statement?


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## Pergamum (Jul 15, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.
> ...



Yes, that is true...and I have seen the same thing...... up to a point (GULP, and hopefully that point is not a sword)...


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## Christusregnat (Jul 16, 2009)

XBlackWaterX said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



Julio,

Generally once I tell a muslim man that his god is a devil is when the gospel comes out. The point that generally bring up how satanic Allah is is how an earthly judge can't rightly let a criminal go without being evil, while Allah just lets people off scot-free without any kind of atonement (quite unlike the Christian God Who provides atonement through Jesus Christ).

Generally, by the time I have gotten to Allah is a devil, they are ready for me to say this, and it has never taken any of them by surprise. By this point, their confidence is usually shaken, and they don't really have a reply.

The point I am trying to prove is how little their god has in common with the God described in the Bible, and how offensive their idolatry and false way of salvation is.

Again, with all due respect, such a statement would sound very odd to the average American (due to causes cited earlier), but is straight-forward and manly enough to make a Muslim respect you. When using such tactics, I have never had a Muslim get belligerent with me... YET 

Cheers,

-----Added 7/16/2009 at 12:07:43 EST-----



Pergamum said:


> Yes, that is true...and I have seen the same thing...... up to a point (GULP, and hopefully that point is not a sword)...



Hahahaha... very clever! 

I have friends who minister in Angola, Sudan, Nigeria and Zimbabwe, and in the countries where they encounter Muslims, they have found that if they do not brandish some form of automatic assault rifles, then Muslims will not listen to them. In fact, they said that they tried the pacifist approach at first, only to find themselves on the edge of being martyred a few times. Now that they have the AK47, they have found their Muslim listeners more receptive. I think Dr. Livingstone had similar experiences, if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers,


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## LawrenceU (Jul 16, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> XBlackWaterX said:
> 
> 
> > Christusregnat said:
> ...



When dealing with Muslims I find the frank and very open approach, most Americans would call it blunt or rude, to be the only avenue of discussion that brings any opportunity to share the gospel to listening ears. You can be very direct and still show respect and kindness.


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## rpavich (Jul 16, 2009)

I guess I'm in the minority here.

I find the church sign to be fine.

I know several evangelists that used terms like: 


blind guide
brood of vipers
foolish
of their father the devil
whitewashed tombs
full of dead men's bones
deceivers
what you worship in ignorance i now proclaim to you...

So telling the truth on a sign is just that; telling the truth on a sign.

The the only objection to this is the argument from pragmatism:

"What if they are repelled by us"

"What will this accomplish?"

"How will they see our love?"

"This kind of thing never works"


In an indirect way...all of those objections are saying the same thing; the truth is less important than perceived results.


I think that the bottom line is this: The truth sets people free. Nobody likes the truth when they are unregenerate; that's just a fact.

I would have no problem if a mosque put up a sign that said "Christians are white devils" because I know that that's exactly the way they see us and they are being truthful.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 16, 2009)

rpavich said:


> I guess I'm in the minority here.
> 
> I find the church sign to be fine.
> 
> ...



I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.


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## TimV (Jul 16, 2009)

In cases like that you can always easily tell if the person/s who put up that sign are worshipping the true Gospel or the Southern Baptist Republican Gospel. All you have to do is go there at night and add another sign that says "Judaism is of the Devil" and see how long they leave it up.

Robert, gotta watch that FAUX NEWS channel. As far as Muslims hating White people, you can test yourself. Think of the most radical Muslim ethnic group around, and if you've been doing your homework you get Chechens. Type Chechen in at google images, and see what they look like.


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## rpavich (Jul 16, 2009)

> I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.



Gotcha...I should have been more clear..


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## TimV (Jul 16, 2009)

> I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.



What are you talking about, Rich?


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## rpavich (Jul 16, 2009)

> Robert, gotta watch that FAUX NEWS channel. As far as Muslims hating White people, you can test yourself. Think of the most radical Muslim ethnic group around, and if you've been doing your homework you get Chechens. Type Chechen in at google images, and see what they look like.



I was referring to the Quran, and the "official belief" not individual Muslim beliefs as like any religion; they differ. 

The Quran says:

_They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil‑doers there will be no helpers. *They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.* Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (Surah 5:72-74, emp. added)._

And in the news recently; persecution of Christians by Muslims has increased in Iraq:

Persecution of Christians Increasing in Iraq « News of Persecution & Suffering « International Christian Concern


A converted Christian family is facing persecution by being deported back to Egypt 

Why is Britain deporting persecuted Christians? « News of Persecution & Suffering « International Christian Concern

And I retract the "white devils" statement; it was incorrect. I had my wires crossed.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 16, 2009)

TimV said:


> > I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about, Rich?



If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.

Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another presupposition


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## TimV (Jul 16, 2009)

> If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.
> 
> Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another *presupposition*



That's what I don't understand. Taking it as a given that Muslim's hate White people.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 16, 2009)

TimV said:


> > If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.
> >
> > Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another *presupposition*
> 
> ...



They assume (stereotype) the typical American is a nominal cultural Christian or Jew. If you don't embrace Islam, you are to be exploited and eliminated (my summary of what Koran says to do with infidels). It would be better expressed that they hate the typical, non Moslem, American.


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## Skyler (Jul 16, 2009)

That might be an accurate depiction of, say, Middle Eastern Muslims, but I don't know that American Muslims tend towards the same thing. A lot of them are being "Americanized" just like most other religions.


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## dudley (Aug 16, 2009)

*I agree and I see it as a cult and a false belief system*



rpavich said:


> > I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha...I should have been more clear..



I agree and I see it as a cult and a false belief system. I am a Reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian and an ex roman catholic and while I renounced the pope and roman catholicsim AND BELIEVE ROMAN CATHOLICISM TO ALSO BE A CULT AND FALSE RELIGION, I DO NOT BELIEVE THE R C CHURCH AND HER MEMBERS ARE SATANIC.

I DO BELIEVE THAT ROMAN CATHOLICISM WAS SUBVERTED BY THE DEVIL TO DISTORT THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL' THAT CHIST DIED TO SAVE ALL WHO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN HIM ALONE! I AM NO LONGER A ROMAN CATHOLIC BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE 5 SOLAS OF PROTESTANTISM ... AND I AM A PRESBYTERIAN BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE THE CLOSEST TO THE CHURCH THAT Christ INTENDED IT TO BE FOR ALL TIME. 

IN GRACE,
DUDLEY


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 16, 2009)

> "All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?



Nope, it is not.... well not all of it. The Gospel is: Jesus Christ came to Earth and died to save those sinners that are going to Hell.


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## Paul Nowlan (Aug 16, 2009)

I hope this makes sense. 

One one hand, we are called to be as inoffensive and gentle as possible.

On the other hand, we are called to be firm and brave proponents of Truth.

The preceding posts have argued the benefits of both types of callings.

The question is what is an appropriate sign to reach out to Muslims?

Some random and hopefully worthwhile signs:

"Is Allah really the same as the Christian God?"

"Does Allah really love?" 

"Do you really prefer Islam over Christianity?"


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