# Reconciling Romans 6 and 7?



## OPC'n (Aug 10, 2012)

How do we reconcile these two passages? 

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

AND

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Is Romans 8 the answer to reconciling these two chapter?


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## Peairtach (Aug 10, 2012)

> Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.



If you read this on its own you might think that the Apostle was talking about moral perfection, but knowing what we know from the rest of Scripture - and Christian experience - this is not the case.

The Romans 7 passage is talking about the Apostle's subjective experience of wrestling with _remaining_ _indwelling_ sin; yet others looking at the transformation in his life would have said that the Romans 6 passage was more characteristic of him, because there had been a deep, wide and general transformation.


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## John Bunyan (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't see where the problem lays. 6 is about salvation, 7 is about the state of man before salvation. Paul mentioned that people had been saved in 6, then goes on to say why salvation is necessary in the first place (by himself he's no good). 8 does end the whole commentary on sin, depravity and salvation:"1{There is} therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin}"


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## OPC'n (Aug 10, 2012)

John Bunyan said:


> I don't see where the problem lays. 6 is about salvation, 7 is about the state of man before salvation. Paul mentioned that people had been saved in 6, then goes on to say why salvation is necessary in the first place (by himself he's no good). 8 does end the whole commentary on sin, depravity and salvation:"1{There is} therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin}"



I don't see where chapter 7 is speaking of Paul before his salvation bc it says that his inner being delights in the law of God and unbelievers don't delight in the law of God.


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## arapahoepark (Aug 10, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> John Bunyan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see where the problem lays. 6 is about salvation, 7 is about the state of man before salvation. Paul mentioned that people had been saved in 6, then goes on to say why salvation is necessary in the first place (by himself he's no good). 8 does end the whole commentary on sin, depravity and salvation:"1{There is} therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin}"
> ...



Depends on if you interpret it as Paul saying he's currently struggling with the law or back when he was a Pharisee trying to use the law justify himself with the opposite effect.
Either way, chaps. 6 and 7 don't in anyway contradict each other.


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## py3ak (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't think there's a tension to reconcile. Romans 6 says we present ourselves for obedience: that is our intention, our desire, in some measure our practice. Paul says that he does not do the things he would: he is hampered in his presentation of himself by sin that dwells in him. But the sin he does, he does not because he's presenting himself as the servant of sin, but because he's overcome.


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## OPC'n (Aug 11, 2012)

The parts that i'm having difficulty with are Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. and Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

If we are no longer slaves of sin (which i believe) then why does he say state being sold under sin? Being sold to something means being a slave to that thing. So that's the part tripping me up.


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## py3ak (Aug 11, 2012)

Sarah, I think there are two possible solutions.

One is that Paul speaks as he feels. Romans 6 describes what he knows to be the case; Romans 7:14 describes what looks like the case. I think there are certainly are times when most of us feel like that. "You thought by now you'd be so much better than you are" is a refrain applicable to much of the Christian life: and we must learn to identify with Christ and the new creation in him, rather than finding our identity in the old man who has been crucified.

The other is that Romans 7:14 speaks of the flesh as a principle: the old man is carnal, sold under sin. Calvin takes it that Romans 7:14 speaks of the flesh as it is in itself, and that in vv.15 and following Paul then describes his state as a regenerate person. Though John Gill sets it out differently, it is rather similar when he writes:


> He adds, “sold under sin”; he did not “sell himself” to work wickedness, as Ahab, (1 Kings 21:25), and others; he was passive and not active in it; and when at any time he with his flesh served the law of sin, he was not a voluntary, but an involuntary servant; besides, this may be understood of his other I, his carnal I, his unrenewed self, the old man which is always under sin, when the spiritual I, the new man, is never under the law of sin, but under the governing influence of the grace of God.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 11, 2012)

One of the most comforting things to me about these passages (though I don't claim to understand them perfectly) is that Paul does not identify him_self_ with sin. It is not _I_ that present my members as slaves to sin. Sin often involves an identity crisis; and in that crisis, we see ourselves not as the 'old man' still present with us till we die, but as the new creature in Christ -- desiring, however (seemingly) inefficaciously, and against however much opposition, in however long and bitter a struggle, to serve God from the heart.


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## Guido's Brother (Aug 11, 2012)

I have written something about this.  You might find it helpful.


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## Andrew P.C. (Aug 11, 2012)

Here's Calvin on verse 14:



> 14. For we know that the law, etc. He now begins more closely to compare the law with what man is, that it may be more clearly understood whence the evil of death proceeds. He then sets before us an example in a regenerate man, in whom the remnants of the flesh are wholly contrary to the law of the Lord, while the spirit would gladly obey it. But first, as we have said, he makes only a comparison between nature and the law. Since in human things there is no greater discord than between spirit and flesh, the law being spiritual and man carnal, what agreement can there be between the natural man and the law? Even the same as between darkness and light. But by calling the law spiritual, he not only means, as some expound the passage, that it requires the inward affections of the heart; but that, by way of contrast, it has a contrary import to the word carnal 219 These interpreters give this explanation, “The law is spiritual, that is, it binds not only the feet and hands as to external works, but regards the feelings of the heart, and requires the real fear of God.”
> 
> But here a contrast is evidently set forth between the flesh and the spirit. And further, it is sufficiently clear from the context, and it has been in fact already shown, that under the term flesh is included whatever men bring from the womb; and flesh is what men are called, as they are born, and as long as they retain their natural character; for as they are corrupt, so they neither taste nor desire anything but what is gross and earthly. Spirit, on the contrary, is renewed nature, which God forms anew after his own image. And this mode of speaking is adopted on this account — because the newness which is wrought in us is the gift of the Spirit.
> 
> ...



I hope this helps.


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## OPC'n (Aug 11, 2012)

py3ak said:


> Sarah, I think there are two possible solutions.
> 
> One is that Paul speaks as he feels. Romans 6 describes what he knows to be the case; Romans 7:14 describes what looks like the case. I think there are certainly are times when most of us feel like that. "You thought by now you'd be so much better than you are" is a refrain applicable to much of the Christian life: and we must learn to identify with Christ and the new creation in him, rather than finding our identity in the old man who has been crucified.
> 
> ...



Ruben, I like what you have to say about Paul feeling a certain way although by grace he isn't a slave to sin. I took Andrew's lead and went and started reading Calvin's commentary starting from Romans 6:14 and found this about verse 14....it describes what you say about Paul stating his feelings in chapter 7 but in a bright light of assurance. So I felt that perhaps in chapter 7 he describes how he felt but wasn't his true state. 

"14. For sin shall not rule over you, etc. It is not necessary to continue long in repeating and confuting expositions, which have little or no appearance of truth. There is one which has more probability in its favor than the rest, and it is this — that by law we are to understand the letter of the law, which cannot renovate the soul, and by grace, the grace of the Spirit, by which we are freed from depraved lusts. But this I do not wholly approve of; for if we take this meaning, what is the object of the question which immediately follows, “Shall we sin because we are not under the law?” Certainly the Apostle would never have put this question, had he not understood, that we are freed from the strictness of the law, so that God no more deals with us according to the high demands of justice. There is then no doubt but that he meant here to indicate some freedom from the very law of God. But laying aside controversy, I will briefly explain my view.
*It seems to me, that there is here especially a consolation offered, by which the faithful are to be strengthened, lest they should faint in their efforts after holiness, through a consciousness of their own weakness. He had exhorted them to devote all their faculties to the service of righteousness; but as they carry about them the relics of the flesh, they cannot do otherwise than walk somewhat lamely.* Hence, lest being broken down by a consciousness of their infirmity they should despond, he seasonably comes to their aid, by interposing a consolation, derived from this circumstance — *that their works are not now tested by the strict rule of the law, but that God, remitting their impurity, does kindly and mercifully accept them. The yoke of the law cannot do otherwise than tear and bruise those who carry it. It hence follows, that the faithful must flee to Christ, and implore him to be the defender of their freedom:* and as such he exhibits himself; for he underwent the bondage of the law, to which he was himself no debtor, for this end — that he might, as the Apostle says, redeem those who were under the law.
Hence, not to be under the law means, not only that we are not under the letter which prescribes what involves us in guilt, as we are not able to perform it, but also that we are no longer subject to the law, as requiring perfect righteousness, and pronouncing death on all who deviate from it in any part. In like manner, by the word grace, we are to understand both parts of redemption — the remission of sins, by which God imputes righteousness to us, — and the sanctification of the Spirit, by whom he forms us anew unto good works. The adversative particle, [ἀλλὰ, but,] I take in the sense of alleging a reason, which is not unfrequently the case; as though it was said — “We who are under grace, are not therefore under the law.”
The sense now is clear; for the Apostle intended to comfort us, lest we should be wearied in our minds, while striving to do what is right, because we still find in ourselves many imperfections. For how much soever we may be harassed by the stings of sin, it cannot yet overcome us, for we are enabled to conquer it by the Spirit of God; and then, being under grace, we are freed from the rigorous requirements of the law. We must further understand, that the Apostle assumes it as granted, that all who are without the grace of God, being bound under the yoke of the law, are under condemnation. And so we may on the other hand conclude, that as long as they are under the law, they are subject to the dominion of sin." 

Chapter 7 of Calvin's commentary goes on to say that we are freed from the law not to sin but by God's grace we are no longer judged by the law but by Christ's work. The law isn't sinful but stirs in the unbeliever more evil but those in Christ are freed from it to serve as he has commanded. He talks much about how the law though good can only stir evil desires apart from Christ. He states, 

" I indeed allow that it is an inseparable incident, and hence the law, as compared with the gospel, is called in another place the ministration of death; but still this remains unaltered, that it is not in its own nature hurtful to us, but it is so because our corruption provokes and draws upon us its curse."

When he gets to vs 14 it seems he is speaking of how it is with an unregenerate person but I think he isn't. I think he is speaking of the flesh that is still left within us which is sold under sin but that we have the Spirit who helps us to do what God calls us to do. I say this bc he goes on to say, 

"*The godly, on the other hand, in whom the regeneration of God is begun, are so divided, that with the chief desire of the heart they aspire to God, seek celestial righteousness, hate sin, and yet they are drawn down to the earth by the relics of their flesh: and thus, while pulled in two ways, they fight against their own nature, and nature fights against them; and they condemn their sins, not only as being constrained by the judgment of reason, but because they really in their hearts abominate them, and on their account loathe themselves. This is the Christian conflict between the flesh and the spirit of which Paul speaks in Galatians 5:17.*
It has therefore been justly said, that the carnal man runs headlong into sin with the approbation and consent of the whole soul; but that a division then immediately begins for the first time, when he is called by the Lord and renewed by the Spirit. For regeneration only begins in this life; the relics of the flesh which remain, always follow their own corrupt propensities, and thus carry on a contest against the Spirit.
The inexperienced, who consider not the subject which the Apostle handles, nor the plan which he pursues, imagine, that the character of man by nature is here described; and indeed there is a similar description of human nature given to us by the Philosophers: but Scripture philosophizes much deeper; for it finds that nothing has remained in the heart of man but corruption, since the time in which Adam lost the image of God. So when the Sophisters wish to define free-will, or to form an estimate of what the power of nature can do, they fix on this passage. *But Paul, as I have said already, does not here set before us simply the natural man, but in his own person describes what is the weakness of the faithful, and how great it is."*

So we have the relics of the flesh sold under sin pulling at us while the Spirit gives us the desire to do God's will. Is that a fair assessment? If so, I understand both chapters now.


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## OPC'n (Aug 11, 2012)

a mere housewife said:


> One of the most comforting things to me about these passages (though I don't claim to understand them perfectly) is that Paul does not identify him_self_ with sin. It is not _I_ that present my members as slaves to sin. Sin often involves an identity crisis; and in that crisis, we see ourselves not as the 'old man' still present with us till we die, but as the new creature in Christ -- desiring, however (seemingly) inefficaciously, and against however much opposition, in however long and bitter a struggle, to serve God from the heart.



I agree!


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## OPC'n (Aug 11, 2012)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Here's Calvin on verse 14:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Andrew thanks for this. It made me go read more of what he meant!


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