# James White is Postmil



## JM (Feb 23, 2021)

Pretty self explanatory if you read the title.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

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## Joshua Davis (Feb 23, 2021)

The correct view

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## ZackF (Feb 23, 2021)




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## SeanPatrickCornell (Feb 23, 2021)

James used to be an Elder at my church, and I've discussed the issue with him several times in the past. He always claimed that eschatology wasn't his strong suit, but he still went at Ken Gentry once in a back forth online discussion about Amill vs. Postmill.

Anyway, I am glad he's given the topic of eschatology a proper study but it's hard to not imagine that the shift was due primarily to pressure from Jeff Durbin.

I say this as someone who is tentatively Postmillenial myself.

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## Romans922 (Feb 23, 2021)

So, what's your point? There are lots of people who are postmil. The question is, is it the biblical postmil position or the unbiblical one?

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## TheInquirer (Feb 23, 2021)

You wonder how many will, literally overnight, change their eschatological position "cuz James White."

Is there ever a danger with folks like James White, and others like him, that such people are speaking on way too many topics you can't realistically have that much in-depth knowledge about? I ask in objective fairness due to my first statement of how many people are influenced by White (and other popular figures) and tend to follow whatever they believe and teach due to their respect and trust of such figures. I would put John MacArthur and John Piper in the same category.

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## Smeagol (Feb 23, 2021)

If Amillennialism was good enough for John then it’s good enough for me

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## Taylor (Feb 23, 2021)

Grant said:


> If Amillennialism was good enough for John then it’s good enough for me


I know you are joking here, but I actually found Robert Letham's comments here really helpful. He argues that the distinction we often assume exists between amillennialism and postmillennialism is not a distinction but actually more of a continuum of postmillennialism:

In contrast to premillennialism is postmillennialism, which argues that Christ will return after the millennium. Here we enter rather slippery territory. Historically, postmillennial advocates have expected that there will be a period during which the gospel will take root to the extent that the world would be effectively Christianized. When Christ returns, it will be to a world ready and waiting to receive him.​​However, postmillennialism has taken other forms. Many believe that the reference to one thousand years in Revelation 20 signifies the entire period between the ascension of Christ and his parousia, seen from the angle of the saints living and reigning with Christ. From this, Christ’s return will be after (_post_) this figurative thousand years. In this they are at one with most amillennialists. In fact, amillennialism was commonly termed _postmillennialism_, since it held that the parousia comes after the time Christ reigns as depicted in Revelation.​​I find it hard to distinguish the two in a way that does justice to the concerns of both. There are three basic positions. First, there is the idea that a privileged period exists within the time between the ascension and the parousia, in which the world will largely be Christianized. Christ will return some time after or toward the end of this golden age. The expectation is for the gospel to triumph more or less universally in the future before the parousia. Second, at the other end of the scale are the convinced amillennialists who—perhaps influenced by the pessimism of premillennialism—teach that evil will grow worse and worse, the church will have a hard time, and eventually there will be a large-scale persecution, after which Christ will return. Here there is no period before or after the parousia corresponding to any visible millennium on earth. Third, between these poles are those who believe that the reference to the thousand years in Revelation 20 is to the whole period between the ascension and the parousia, during which the bulk of the world will become Christian. Christ will return after the metaphorical thousand years. However, within the ongoing history of the world, between ascension and parousia, there is no specially privileged time distinct from any other time, no golden age as such, but the whole period is one in which the church preaches and witnesses, the world persecutes but Christ reigns. Some might call this “postmillennialism”; others, “optimistic amillennialism.” There is a continuum, clearly distinguished from all premillennialism.​​_—_Robert Letham, _Systematic Theology_ (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2019), 848-9; italics original.​

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## JM (Feb 24, 2021)

Dr. White explains starting at 1h16m

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## ZackF (Feb 24, 2021)

I have been leaning more in the postmill direction in the past few years. I'm still not there though. Dr. White has handled himself respectfully on this issue for decades. There will be some who adopt the his new position because White has. Sadly, there are those who respond that way to any number of public figures. In most cases that is not White's or any other public pastor-intellectual's fault. Individuals in multiple fields have over zealous fans. That's humanity.

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## JM (Feb 24, 2021)

ZackF said:


> I have been leaning more in the postmill direction in the past few years. I'm still not there though. Dr. White has handled himself respectfully on this issue for decades. There will be some who adopt the his new position because White has. Sadly, there are those who respond that way to any number of public figures. In most cases that is not White's or any other public pastor-intellectual's fault. Individuals in multiple fields have over zealous fans. That's humanity.


Same here. Since the first lockdown I've been reading and studying eschatology, reading and re-reading Daniel and Revelation, in different translation, listening to dramatic readings, etc. I posted a chart I made of where I'm at so far and will link it here if you want to peek at it. I'm still working on it. 









Postmillennialism


Updated, more scripture added.




feileadhmor.wordpress.com





Yours it he Lord, 

jm

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## Joshua Davis (Feb 25, 2021)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> James used to be an Elder at my church, and I've discussed the issue with him several times in the past. He always claimed that eschatology wasn't his strong suit, but he still went at Ken Gentry once in a back forth online discussion about Amill vs. Postmill.
> 
> Anyway, I am glad he's given the topic of eschatology a proper study but it's hard to not imagine that the shift was due primarily to pressure from Jeff Durbin.
> 
> I say this as someone who is tentatively Postmillenial myself.


...and Doug Wilson...I'm post-mill as well...


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## C. M. Sheffield (Feb 25, 2021)

I think it's an interesting time for anyone to be going postmil.

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## Taylor (Feb 25, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> I think it's an interesting time for anyone to be going postmil.


Why? Our eschatology is not determined by what we see around us, but by what we read in Scripture.

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## Joshua Davis (Feb 25, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Why? Our eschatology is not determined by what we see around us, but by what we read in Scripture.


Folks don't seem to grasp the concept of God's timeline, and that things are fluctuating throughout history, bad to worse, then good to better, but incrementally over the generations the Gospel is like leaven, slowly spreading throughout the whole earth... it doesn't seem that complicated once you step back and take a macro/meta view of time...

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## RamistThomist (Feb 25, 2021)

I would like to see White debate someone like Alan Kurschner. In any case, I wonder if he adopted the traditional postmil view or the partial preterist variety.

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## JM (Feb 25, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I would like to see White debate someone like Alan Kurschner. In any case, I wonder if he adopted the traditional postmil view or the partial preterist variety.


I believe Alan worked for Dr. White years ago.

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## JM (Feb 25, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> I think it's an interesting time for anyone to be going postmil.


I see the Kingdom as advancing and expanding even in the midst of trials and tribulations. The chart I created allows for drastic setbacks but the Kingdom advances still.

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## Joshua Davis (Feb 25, 2021)

JM said:


> I see the Kingdom as advancing and expanding even in the midst of trials and tribulations. The chart I created allows for drastic setbacks but the Kingdom advances still.


Absolutely, spot on


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## RamistThomist (Feb 25, 2021)

JM said:


> I believe Alan worked for Dr. White years ago.



He did. That would make it very interesting, since both are good debaters.

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## retroGRAD3 (Feb 25, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He did. That would make it very interesting, since both are good debaters.


I would also like to see a debate between them. Debates are often a great way to learn both sides (the assumption being both came prepared).

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## A.Joseph (Feb 26, 2021)

No way with the technology and depraved elite - this planet needs a complete makeover at this point. No way things are getting better. Satan runs this place..... at least temporarily. If he’s bound now.....
Amillennialism appears the most universally held by theological giants and the most logical, scriptural view but I’m pretty new to this area of study myself.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 26, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> this planet needs a complete makeover at this point.


I can't help it. You mean we need a great reset? 

If you had to pin me down, I'd have to say I'm a pessimistic postmil. Short-term crash, long-term blossoming. Beyond that I don't want to get into it.

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## Taylor (Feb 26, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> Amillennialism appears the most universally held by theological giants...


 Many Puritans, Edwards, virtually all the Princetonians through Warfield, R. C. Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, Iain Murray? Either way, counting the noses of of the adherents of a position is hardly the right way to determine the correct view of anything.



A.Joseph said:


> No way with the technology and depraved elite - this planet needs a complete makeover at this point. No way things are getting better.


Again, eschatology is formed through exegesis of Scripture, not our worldly circumstances. And do you _really_ think we live is a worse situation than Rome at the time of the Apostles, or Europe at the time of the Reformation, or Protestants under the reign of Mary? Even with all the troubles afflicting us, it is a difficult argument to make that we live in anything but one of the best times, if not _the_ best time, in world history. The gospel, and thus the Kingdom, has farther reaches than it arguably ever has had.

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## Stephen L Smith (Feb 26, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Many Puritans, Edwards, virtually all the Princetonians through Warfield, R. C. Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, Iain Murray? Either way, counting the noses of of the adherents of a position is hardly the right way to determine the correct view of anything.


Martyn Lloyd-Jones held to an optimistic Amill view. This gives you the best of both worlds - the realism of Amillennialism, and the optimism of Postmillennialism. Surely it is safe to have your feet in both camps.

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## RamistThomist (Feb 26, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Martyn Lloyd-Jones held to an optimistic Amill view. This gives you the best of both worlds - the realism of Amillennialism, and the optimism of Postmillennialism. Surely it is safe to have your feet in both camps.



I don't know how optimistic he was, since he told Carl F Henry he wasn't going to get too involved in culture since Israel was reinstated and the end times are probably near.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 26, 2021)

While I believe things are getting worse--much, much worse--and postmil is mistaken, they aren't mistaken because of cultural reasons, but Scriptural.


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## A.Joseph (Feb 26, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> While I believe things are getting worse--much, much worse--and postmil is mistaken, they aren't mistaken because of cultural reasons, but Scriptural.


I agree with that as well.


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## A.Joseph (Feb 26, 2021)

What was Harold Camping?


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## Eyedoc84 (Feb 26, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> What was Harold Camping?


Looney

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## RamistThomist (Feb 26, 2021)

A.Joseph said:


> What was Harold Camping?



He was an amillennialist who kept predicting the end of the world.


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## ZackF (Feb 26, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He was an amillennialist who kept predicting the end of the world.


I’m guessing a non-optimistic amill?

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## Stephen L Smith (Feb 26, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't know how optimistic he was, since he told Carl F Henry he wasn't going to get too involved in culture since Israel was reinstated and the end times are probably near.


I assume you are referring to his 1980 interview with Carl Henry - given not long before he died. 

Dr Lloyd-Jones was optimistic in the sense that he believed that when revival came, the gospel would change lives, churches would be transformed, and in turn Christians would be salt and light in a nation. I still think his 1959 sermons on revival encourage Christians to have a God-centered theology, and an appreciation of the powerful work of the Holy Spirit to transform lives. 1 Thess 1:5

It is possible he was pessimistic in the last few years of his life. He did not see revival in the United Kingdom and he saw continued spiritual and moral decline in that nation. 

I write this as the largest city in my country holds another 'gay pride' parade. I pray for revival here but I do wonder if God has given my country over to a debased mind Romans 1:28.

Bringing this back to the OP, James White has given much valuable commentary of the massive spiritual and moral decline in the West, yet is optimistic that Psalm 110 will be fulfilled in Christs rule.

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## Taylor (Feb 26, 2021)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Martyn Lloyd-Jones held to an optimistic Amill view. This gives you the best of both worlds - the realism of Amillennialism, and the optimism of Postmillennialism. Surely it is safe to have your feet in both camps.


According to Robert Letham (see above), the two "camps" are really just one camp with different flavors.

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## Stephen L Smith (Feb 27, 2021)

Taylor said:


> According to Robert Letham (see above), the two "camps" are really just one camp with different flavors.


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## Andrew35 (Feb 27, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> I think it's an interesting time for anyone to be going postmil.


That may be partly the point.

I feel like White has gotten more and more despondent about our current social climate, not without some cause.

I wonder if postmil, as well as theonomic leanings, may function for some as a coping mechanism -- a sort of brash defiance and fideistic optimism -- in response to our darkening times.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Feb 27, 2021)

Some postmillennialists believe that there will be a great tribulation prior to the millennium (J. L. Giradeau being one example). So, current events - even if they are a sign that we are headed for a great tribulation - are not necessarily a barrier to one being a postmillennialist.

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## retroGRAD3 (Feb 27, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> That may be partly the point.
> 
> I feel like White has gotten more and more despondent about our current social climate, not without some cause.
> 
> I wonder if postmil, as well as theonomic leanings, may function for some as a coping mechanism -- a sort of brash defiance and fideistic optimism -- in response to our darkening times.


This observation is very interesting.

Edit: I should clarify, they may be a good observation in regard to White specifically, not all those that are post mill. I would agree, if you listen to White on the DL, he does come across very pessimistic about society in general vs. the other elders at Apologia which do not.

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## retroGRAD3 (Feb 27, 2021)

Hey all, since the discussion is going on, I thought I would just ask here about the differences between Post Mill and Optimistic Amill. I see above, someone says it is the best of both worlds. Could someone set out the definitions? I somewhat tongue and cheek usually tell people I am post-amillennial. I am wondering if I am actually the later from above and just not use the correct label. Also, is Optimistic Amill the same thing as Idealism, or is that also something else?


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## Taylor (Feb 27, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Hey all, since the discussion is going on, I thought I would just ask here about the differences between Post Mill and Optimistic Amill. I see above, someone says it is the best of both worlds. Could someone set out the definitions? I somewhat tongue and cheek usually tell people I am post-amillennial. I am wondering if I am actually the later from above and just not use the correct label. Also, is Optimistic Amill the same thing as Idealism, or is that also something else?


See my post above.

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## retroGRAD3 (Feb 27, 2021)

Taylor said:


> See my post above.


Thank you for pointing that out, very helpful. Sorry for missing it. I guess I fall into the third category in his explanation.

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## Taylor (Feb 27, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Thank you for pointing that out, very helpful. Sorry for missing it. I guess I fall into the third category in his explanation.


That's where I am, too. (And, for what it's worth, that's where Letham himself lands.)

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## Jerusalem Blade (Feb 27, 2021)

Thank you, Jason (@JM) for posting the White "conversion" to Postmil. Very instructive.

I wonder where all the Amil die-hards are on this board – I mean those who see the vital importance of the classic Amil view (i.e., Beale, Dennis E. Johnson, Wm Hendriksen, etc) to living and witnessing well in our times, such as David Engelsma (of the PRCA) is.

David J. Engelsma, _Christ’s Spiritual Kingdom: A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism_: https://www.amazon.com/Christs-Spiritual-Kingdom-Reformed-Amillennialism/dp/0971659206.

An online version (but not as complete as the book) : http://www.prca.org/resources/publications/articles/item/317-a-defense-of-reformed-amillennialism

DJE mostly goes after the Postmil folks who have been attacking him and the Amil view. Have we any such Amillers here on PB?

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## JM (Feb 27, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> That may be partly the point.
> 
> I feel like White has gotten more and more despondent about our current social climate, not without some cause.
> 
> I wonder if postmil, as well as theonomic leanings, may function for some as a coping mechanism -- a sort of brash defiance and fideistic optimism -- in response to our darkening times.


There might be something to this, I dunno. I moved closer to Postmil since the scamdemic hit but I've also had more time to read and focus on scripture, and I've actually read more from the Postmil perspective. I don't see me moving away from Amil toward Postmil as a big shift and maybe Dr. White feels the same. The bigger shift for me was moving away from Historicism toward orthodox preterism, I'm struggling with the idea of "multiple embodiments" of Revelation. 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm


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## A.Joseph (Feb 27, 2021)

JM said:


> There might be something to this, I dunno. I moved closer to Postmil since the scamdemic hit but I've also had more time to read and focus on scripture, and I've actually read more from the Postmil perspective. I don't see me moving away from Amil toward Postmil as a big shift and maybe Dr. White feels the same. The bigger shift for me was moving away from Historicism toward orthodox preterism,* I'm struggling with the idea of "multiple embodiments" of Revelation.*
> 
> Yours in the Lord,
> 
> jm


“I'm struggling with the idea of "multiple embodiments" of Revelation.”
Why? I think it gels with covenant theology quite nicely.


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## JM (Feb 27, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Why? Our eschatology is not determined by what we see around us, but by what we read in Scripture.


Yes, exactly.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Feb 27, 2021)

That is, unless we see in hindsight prophesied events in Scripture realized: see below, "New Insights in Amillennial Eschatology":

*New Insights in Amillennial Eschatology*

_“Does God give only academicians and seminarians insight and 
understanding? May He not use even wilderness-trained men?”​_
I will argue in this paper that a lack of understanding concerning the word “sorceries” (Greek, _pharmakeia_, φαρμακεία) and its cognates in _The Book of Revelation_ have led to overlooking key elements in some of its prophecies, and thus inability to appreciate their import and relevance to the times. It is accepted that the “eclectic” or “modified idealist” view (Beale)1 allows _some_ departure from the idealist, though as to where the line is drawn there is no clear consensus. Beale himself says, “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” 2 Please note this is not an academic presentation, but aimed rather at a popular audience _as well as_ academics, so don’t hold it to the precise standards of strict academic formatting.

Basically my view is this: the _pharmakeia_ of Revelation 18:23 and 9:21 (a variant in the latter reading φάρμακον _pharmakon_ – drugs – does not affect translation) are the very drugs used and heralded by the sixties and seventies counterculture that were exported into most of the world and which – in retrospect – are seen to constitute a prophesied event clearly depicted in Scripture. The Greek _pharmakeia_ is generally translated “sorceries” in the New Testament. Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated _a principle _applicable here,

“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (_The Pauline Eschatology_, p. 133)​
O.T. Allis in his book, _Prophecy and the Church_, expressed the same sentiment:

“The usual view on this subject [‘the intelligibility of prophecy’] has been that prophecy is not intended to be fully understood before its fulfilment, that it is only when God ‘establishes the word of his servants and fulfills the counsel of his messengers,’ that the meaning and import of their words become fully manifest.” (p 25)​
Stuart Olyott in his,_ Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained_, thinks likewise:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are _in_ those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​
[These three men are all of the Amillennial school of eschatological interpretation.] The reason this has not been widely recognized is that those who live godly have no notion what the dark practice of sorcery entails, a practice that astonishingly became a national and even global _recreation_ of sorts, and for many also having a spiritual or psychic aspect. In short, what was Biblically termed sorcery became widespread and accepted. In 2016 one of these substances, marijuana, is quickly gaining legal and cultural approval across the United States (and elsewhere in the world as well).

[see attachment for continuing the article]


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## VictorBravo (Feb 27, 2021)

For the time being, I have tabled looking at Revelation as an eschatology text. I'm looking at it as a "Revelation of Jesus Right Now" text.

It draws so much from the Old Testament, and I find it profitable to try to look at it as if I knew my Old Testament as well as the First Century believers did.

One little observation convicted me. Looking at Babylon throughout Scripture, for example, we see how society in rebellion always tends to equate itself with God. Likewise for people. "Come out of her" takes on a different emphasis. You can't flee from Babylon as if you had that ability because, if you think you have that power, you still live in Babylon.

You can only flee toward Christ.

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## deleteduser99 (Feb 28, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> That may be partly the point.
> 
> I feel like White has gotten more and more despondent about our current social climate, not without some cause.
> 
> I wonder if postmil, as well as theonomic leanings, may function for some as a coping mechanism -- a sort of brash defiance and fideistic optimism -- in response to our darkening times.



I rather see it as the church being forced to turn its eyes to heaven 

What if a post-mil time were right around the corner after such a dark time? Prophesied goodness has happened many times before at the least likely moments. There would be no surprise for it to happen again.

Abraham received a promise of a multitude like the sand on the seashore, though 200 years later it was still Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, his four wives, and their children, and he never lived to see the intense and miraculous population explosion of his children in Exodus 1. He never even had the land as his possession in his lifetime and bought his wife's tomb. But come it did. There was a glorious possession and flourishing in the time of Solomon, but before then was bondage in Egypt, the time of the wilderness, the spiritual darkness of the times of the judges, the spiritual low in the time if Eli, the oppression of Saul, but nonetheless it came. Riches, land, spiritual livelihood, a temple, grand flourishing, and the manifest presence of God in the temple. All the world was astonished by it.

Abraham's was told that in him would all the nations of the earth be blessed, but it was 2000 years before Pentecost came and the work of the Spirit took off in the Gentile world. It was a thousand years after Psalm 67 that the nations did begin to praise Him. Until then, Ninevahs were generally exceptions. Who was expecting the outpouring of the Spirit when it came? The Jews had just crucified the Messiah; yet not long afterward, 3000 saved and baptized at the first sermon, 5000 at another, continuous adding to the church in between. Christ had unexpectedly turned the world upside down.

And since then, who would have thought thought Luther's 95 theses would fuel the Reform efforts into a wildfire? The papacy suffered a massive blow.

Who would have thought there would be a Puritan age?

Who thought that in the midst of England's spiritual and moral deadness (and it was very much like the Western world today), and in the midst of the theological and spiritual problems of America, that there would come revival on these two places, very much by the instrumentality of one man, George Whitefield? Not to mention the faithfulness of the other Methodists as well. 100 years later Ryle writes that the good influence of that work of God was still being realized.

The times are awful. And I watch in sadness as the polluting influence of my nation begins to intrude on the East. If we want God to be maximally glorified then this could be a very good thing, if I may say so. Perhaps the Lord intends, rather than let the world fall into decay, to try everything it has in defying Him so He can show Himself mighty. Let the nations rage so that Christ can subdue them (Ps 2).

Believing too that such optimism has a Scriptural base though I do need more study, such a view I find to best correspond to the greatness of God, His depths of compassion, His infinite goodness, and the worth of the death of His Son.

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## RamistThomist (Feb 28, 2021)

I wonder how much of White's view is from hanging out with Doug Wilson. I became postmil in 2004 because I hung out with the Auburn Avenue crowd. In order to not avoid fatal defeaters, preterists need to explain how they can conveniently call a halt to the "it was fulfilled in 70 AD" take on Revelation, yet not apply it to the entirety of chapter 20.

This is why traditional postmillennialism is much better. Mind you, I think they have problems with Matt 24, but at least they don't have a system that logically leads to a denial of the resurrection.

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## retroGRAD3 (Feb 28, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I wonder how much of White's view is from hanging out with Doug Wilson. I became postmil in 2004 because I hung out with the Auburn Avenue crowd. In order to not avoid fatal defeaters, preterists need to explain how they can conveniently call a halt to the "it was fulfilled in 70 AD" take on Revelation, yet not apply it to the entirety of chapter 20.
> 
> This is why traditional postmillennialism is much better. Mind you, I think they have problems with Matt 24, but at least they don't have a system that logically leads to a denial of the resurrection.


This is certainly possible, but if it was about hanging out with someone, it was more likely the people at his own church. However, based on his explanation (the video), it does sound like he came to this conclusion by scripture. The whole conversation is going text to text.


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## Taylor (Feb 28, 2021)

I am positive he has come to this conviction through the influence of Durbin, and perhaps a little Wilson. But it's not a bad thing to receive one's convictions from others. That's just the nature of Christian community. I don't think there's a single belief I have now that I didn't get from "hanging out" with another Christian, either through personal interaction or through reading a book. We should be wary of the notion that the only legitimate beliefs we hold are those we got from "me, my Bible, and God." It just rarely, if ever, truly happens that way. Of course, we don't want to be Christian chameleons, changing colors every time we are in a new environment. But it is a good thing to be shaped by our brethren.

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## RamistThomist (Feb 28, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> This is certainly possible, but if it was about hanging out with someone, it was more likely the people at his own church. However, based on his explanation (the video), it does sound like he came to this conclusion by scripture. The whole conversation is going text to text.



That's true, but Doug Wilson cleverly cornered the Reformed Baptist market on cultural issues, and if Durbin still goes to his church, that would make sense.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Feb 28, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That's true, but Doug Wilson cleverly cornered the Reformed Baptist market on cultural issues, and if Durbin still goes to his church, that would make sense.



"If Durbin still goes to his church..."

Who is the "his" in the sentence above? Doug Wilson's church? (Jeff Durbin never went to Doug Wilson's church). Or James White's church? (Jeff Durbin never went to James White's church. Rather James White left PRBC to join Jeff Durbin's church).

Just as general info, Jeff Durbin has been a member and founding Pastor of Apologia Church for over a decade.

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## RamistThomist (Feb 28, 2021)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> "If Durbin still goes to his church..."
> 
> Who is the "his" in the sentence above? Doug Wilson's church? (Jeff Durbin never went to Doug Wilson's church). Or James White's church? (Jeff Durbin never went to James White's church. Rather James White left PRBC to join Jeff Durbin's church).
> 
> Just as general info, Jeff Durbin has been a member and founding Pastor of Apologia Church for over a decade.



I was talking about White and Durbin. Thanks for the clarification.


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## JM (Feb 28, 2021)

This may sound crazy but maybe, just maybe Dr. White was encouraged to reexamine his eschatology from his fellow Elders at Apologia and was convinced from scripture that Postmil is the correct view.

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## SeanPatrickCornell (Feb 28, 2021)

JM said:


> This may sound crazy but maybe, just maybe Dr. White was encouraged to reexamine his eschatology from his fellow Elders at Apologia and was convinced from scripture that Postmil is the correct view.



How is that different from what anyone else has said here?


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## JM (Feb 28, 2021)

I got the impression people thought Dr. White's eschatology changed due to the influence of others (Wilson, Durbin, etc). I'm saying the influence of others got him to take another look at eschatology in light of scripture and he changed his views to be more in line with what he believes scripture teaches. 

Yours in the Lord,

jm


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## Smeagol (Feb 28, 2021)

JM said:


> I got the impression people thought Dr. White's eschatology changed due to the influence of others (Wilson, Durbin, etc). I'm saying the influence of others got him to take another look at eschatology in light of scripture and he changed his views to be more in line with what he believes scripture teaches.
> 
> Yours in the Lord,
> 
> jm


Or did James White lose to Jeff Durbin in a Mortal Kombat tourney?

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## Taylor (Feb 28, 2021)

Grant said:


> Or did James White loose to Jeff Durbin in a Mortal Kombat tourney?


This seems to me to be the most plausible scenario.


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## JM (Feb 28, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This seems to me to be the most plausible scenario.

Reactions: Wow 1


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## VictorBravo (Feb 28, 2021)

Grant said:


> Or did James White *loose* to Jeff Durbin in a Mortal Kombat tourney?


Is that some kind of gamer lingo or what?


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## Smeagol (Feb 28, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Is that some kind of gamer lingo or what?


Well there has got to be something said for consistency.


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## ZackF (Feb 28, 2021)

Grant said:


> Or did James White lose to Jeff Durbin in a Mortal Kombat tourney?


Must have lost a coin toss. I’m sure White would have chosen cycling.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 1, 2021)

In JM's second video clip of White (post #9), James does confirm this statement of Jason: "This may sound crazy but maybe, just maybe Dr. White was encouraged to reexamine his eschatology from his fellow Elders at Apologia and was convinced from scripture that Postmil is the correct view." (JM post #56).

When you're around folks continually promoting a view, it can turn one. Also, an intensely satanic culture—_and_ age generally—can make one strongly desire the godliness of the Law enforced by cultural and political institutions—especially, as James said, if one has grandchildren one loves, with an eye to their future.

I’ve heard it said that where we—the church of today—are in the Biblical timeline is between the Book of Acts and Revelation. But that’s not entirely accurate, as the Revelation of John, or the Apocalypse as it’s also called, contains in it events and spiritual dynamics that are going on _all through_ the New Testament church age. That means that even now we’re _in_ the Book of Revelation, time-wise—and, truth be told—very likely near the end of it, that is, near the end of the age before the Lord’s return.

Of all the various schemas used to interpret Revelation, only one—the Amillennial—includes all the churches from John’s day to the end of the age, bypassing none. This means that the book and its vital—urgent—counsel was as much for the church in Smyrna of Asia Minor in 100 A.D. as it was for the churches of the Waldenses in the mountains of Europe in 1,200 A.D., and for the churches in our contemporary world of 2021 [updated] A.D. The Amillennial—also called the _present_ “millennial” reign of Jesus Christ from heaven, and His binding of Satan, as well as the loosing of him at the very end of the age—is the only view that does not exclude large segments of the age-long church from the blessings of wisdom, courage, and warning promised the readers and keepers of the prophecies of Revelation. Only in the context of the _entire_ NT church age do the details of the visions fit into perfect place.

*Why getting it right – or wrong – matters: Rightly understanding the times, and one’s labors fruitful, or: Unprepared for what’s coming, wrong focus in one’s labors, and not bearing the best fruit*

If one holds to the *premil* view, we’ll expect to be raptured out before the serious tribulation starts (though there are views within that fold, such as mid-trib, and pre-wrath, both of which go through some tribulation), and how one prepares one’s mind – and life – would be different than if one were *postmil*, expecting things to generally get better and better and the Christians in it for the _very_ long haul, some ten thousands of years plus, possibly. For the postmil, one would see the secular culture as a field to be sown with the Word of God and spiritual labor with the expectation of that culture becoming “Christianized” and bearing at least outward observance of God’s Law. One would be devoting one’s life and energy to infusing the Mosaic Law into the political-legal arena, with the expectation of its becoming the law of the land.

For the *amil*, or one holding that the entire present age is the millennial period, we see that we are in a worsening world, with the main threats either intense worldly seduction from an increasingly sensual and antichristian culture, and/or persecution from hostile ruling authorities – with no hope of these things getting better, not in the long run, though there could be short-term improvements. We fight for justice for the downtrodden and speak for those with no voice, even though we go against the grain when we do it in Christ’s name. The focus for the amil is that we “may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life...” (Philippians 2:15, 16)

To the amil the Kingdom of God to be secured and sustained is the church, not the culture or the political arena, though one may speak to the culture, whether by Christian witness, works of art and literature, or works of mercy, calling those who love the truth out of the power of darkness and into the Kingdom of God’s dear Son. Ditto with the political-legal arena – one may seek to influence those therein to uphold God’s agenda of righteousness and compassion, and to become disciples of Christ, but the amil does not desire to build the Kingdom of God _in and of_ the worldly institutions of culture, law and politics.

To the amil the church is the manifestation of God’s Kingdom and rule in this world, and the House in which He lives. I suppose one’s eschatological view will seriously affect one’s attitude to the culture, politics, and the areas of one’s heartfelt labors. It will also affect one’s expectations of suffering-to-come, and preparing one’s mind and heart in that regard. One’s labors will be twofold primarily: a) seeking to better the church, strengthening, supporting, and nurturing it as the very body of Christ, and b) seeking to call God’s elect yet unregenerated out of the dark cultures of the world and into His light, which shines brightest in His church. We do not know who these uncalled elect are so we preach to all and as many as we can, according to our gifts and our opportunities.

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## RamistThomist (Mar 2, 2021)

Sure enough. Kurschner did respond. If White puts his thoughts in a developed article (and he may have by now), I would like to interact with it.





My Initial Response to James White's Postmillennialism | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES


I am glad to see Dr. James White investigating eschatology. While I think he is wrong on postmillennialism and preterism, at least, contrary to popular opinion, it is a step closer to prewrath premillennialism. However, Dr. White has always practiced—and something I greatly respect—engaging the...




www.alankurschner.com





(Kurschner used to be associated with White and is generally appreciative of him)

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## RamistThomist (Mar 2, 2021)

From the Sandlin interview








James White, Postmillennialist


Dr. James White is a Reformed Baptist theologian and apologist and founder and director of Alpha Omega Ministries who, formerly premillennial and amillennial, recently shifted his eschatology to po…




docsandlin.com





*. The phrase in Psalm 110:2, “rule in the midst of Your enemies” struck me. This is a command, an imperative, and it is not about ruling in heaven while Christ’s enemies hold full sway upon earth.*

Actually, that's exactly what it is. Christ is ascended in heaven. He is literally--incarnately--at the right hand of God. That proposition is *the* reason we aren't Lutherans. Where else would he rule? If he says physically on earth, he has adopted premillennialism.

The rest of the interview is basically "we will see Gospel progress in history." The problem is that every one aside from Tim Lahaye has affirmed that in some sense. As he concedes that you can't draw a straight line, either positively or negatively, then the phrase "the gospel will progress in history" can't be taken in a univocal sense.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 6, 2021)

Thanks for posting this, Jacob! I think I'll be studying James' view more closely and interact with it.

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## JM (Mar 6, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Thanks for posting this, Jacob! I think I'll be studying James' view more closely and interact with it.


Looking forward to it.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 11, 2021)

Many of us were recently made aware that Christian apologist James White came out as Post-Millennial (switching from a loosely held Amillennialism) in his sermon, *My Journey to Hope for the Future *



 , preached at Apologia Church in Mesa, AZ, where he is an elder/pastor.

At first I thought, “Good, a worthy opponent to help us amil folks hone and fine-tune our own presentations”, but I was disappointed – it wasn’t a great presentation he made. Still, I’d like to briefly answer it.

Part of James’ journey to hope pertained to his children and grandchildren (who evidently were there in the service, as he addressed one of his grands during the sermon), for whom he feels great and loving concern in light of the culture-of-death juggernaut morphing into a massive and monstrous culture-permeating adversary, not only to the Christian faith but even to secular traditional politics and morality, so that our basic cultural and political structures are increasingly being co-opted by a radical agenda bent on tyrannically overwhelming and replacing the more “normal” way of life we in America have been living for some decades. One can certainly feel sympathy for James’ concern!

James’ strategy for dealing with such a satanically-inspired power-laden agenda is to place his hopes in Christ enabling him and his fellow postmillers to endure this dark societal movement – even if it takes multiple centuries! – hoping that the Lord will (as James exposits certain Scripture passages), through His ruling in the midst of His enemies, eventually win over – or at the least “Christianize” – the cultures affected by these through the power of the Gospel, bettering the world, and making it fit for the Lord to return.

James uses the Scripture passages of Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 42:1-4, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 to the end of showing that the meaning of “rule thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Psa 110:2), and “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), is that reigning and ruling is a process over a period of time in which the Gospel will turn the tide for the better – making the world increasingly righteous – and *not* a sudden climactic event of final victory, where He will “zap” the bad guys (James’ word) in some quick Armageddon finale, thus rescuing His nigh-decimated and suffering church — which he says is an amil error, but will instead take place over possibly many centuries.

There *is* truth in saying that the Lord’s rule in the midst of His enemies will effect hearts and cultures over “a long period of time”, as the amil view is that during the figurative millennial period of the NT church age, the preaching of the Gospel will bind Satan from deceiving nations as such (_as nations_), though he is still given to deceive non-elect individuals, while the Gospel draws all Christ’s elect into His fold, the church, throughout the church age, until the “little season” of Revelation 20:3 when Satan is loosed, the Gospel silenced, and nations once again are plunged into full darkness to the end of his marshaling them so as to kill all Christ’s people world-wide – the Lord intervening in the midst of the satanic onslaught to wreak vengeance on the persecutors and idolators, and resurrecting His beloved bride.

Thus, the “rule” of Christ “in the midst of His enemies” – where He exercises His sovereign will and might to gather His sheep to Himself – does not extend over the postmil’s many *millennia* – but simply over the shorter period of the church age, which in the main is an evil age, and not one where men and cultures are “Christianized” and the world gets better and better:

*Gal 1:4* our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [or age], according to the will of God and our Father

*1 John 5:19* we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness [or the wicked one]

*Eph 2:2* in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

*John 15:18-20* If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

*John 17:14-16* I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

*2 Tim 3:12, 13* Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

*John 16:33* These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.​
Christ Jesus rules over the entire world through the entire church age from the throne of David upon which He sits (Luke 1:32; Acts 2:30ff.) in the heavens as He exercises that “All power and authority which is given to Me in heaven and in earth”, and He opens the seven seals of the planned decrees for the governance of the NT church age.

Scripture does not posit any possibility of a bettering world – not in the long run – but rather a worsening one! The hope we amils hold out for the future of our loved ones is in preparing them – little ones included! – to endure the atrocities the wicked shall mete upon them at Satan’s behest. As He said, “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction” (Isa 48:10).

We do not indulge in vain hopes of the betterment of the wicked and Satan’s reprobate horde, but in the mercy given us from above, as the hymn sings, “Praise to the Lord, who, when darkness and sin are abounding, who, when the godless do triumph, all virtue confounding, sheddeth his light, chaseth the horrors of night, saints with his mercy surrounding.” Our hope is in our Lord’s presence, power, and love to sustain us in holiness and faith until the end.

*WCF 5.1*: God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.​
Christ reigns in the midst of His enemies *now*. And will continue to until He returns.

In Psalm 2:8-9, the Messiah-King tells of God the Father saying to Him, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Which shall be fulfilled at the eschaton, as *Revelation 19:15* shows the returning Christ destroying His enemies utterly at the finale of Armageddon:

“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”​
At that point, “the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:17). Only the blood-bought lovers of God and His Christ. Away with these dreams of a golden age before the genuine, biblical Day of Vengeance!

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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 11, 2021)

Regarding Jeff Durbin's "Ninja Bottlecap Challenge" in JM's post 61, it does appear that Durbin has been a world class martial arts practitioner, according to his testimony of conversion to Christ, after he had descended into a serious drug and alcohol abyss.

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## Romans830 (Mar 28, 2021)

TheInquirer said:


> You wonder how many will, literally overnight, change their eschatological position "cuz James White."
> 
> Is there ever a danger with folks like James White, and others like him, that such people are speaking on way too many topics you can't realistically have that much in-depth knowledge about? I ask in objective fairness due to my first statement of how many people are influenced by White (and other popular figures) and tend to follow whatever they believe and teach due to their respect and trust of such figures. I would put John MacArthur and John Piper in the same category.


His follow up on his sermon on the DL is more interesting. Nothing but emotional arguments or reasons in order to switch positions.

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## JM (Mar 28, 2021)

Romans830 said:


> His follow up on his sermon on the DL is more interesting. Nothing but emotional arguments or reasons in order to switch positions.


I think Dr. White has been heading this way for a long time and if there was anything that really helped him make the move I would guess it was Joe Boot's work "The Mission of God." I have it but haven't read it yet.


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## Andrew35 (Mar 28, 2021)

He had Boot on the other day, right? (That sentence makes me laugh for some reason.) The guy was going off on 2 Kingdoms.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a radical 2Ker, but I tilt that way myself a bit, having partially digested but ultimately rejected neo-Kuyperian transformationalism. I didn't feel like the guy was being fair, and was way more worked up about it than the matter warranted -- though I have to give another listen....

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## JM (Mar 28, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> He had Boot on the other day, right? (That sentence makes me laugh for some reason.) The guy was going off on 2 Kingdoms.
> 
> Now I wouldn't consider myself a radical 2Ker, but I tilt that way myself a bit, having partially digested but ultimately rejected neo-Kuyperian transformationalism. I didn't feel like the guy was being fair, and was way more worked up about it than the matter warranted -- though I have to give another listen....


What's this all aboot anyways? jk It's a Scots Canadian thing.

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## Romans830 (Mar 28, 2021)

Andrew35 said:


> He had Boot on the other day, right? (That sentence makes me laugh for some reason.) The guy was going off on 2 Kingdoms.
> 
> Now I wouldn't consider myself a radical 2Ker, but I tilt that way myself a bit, having partially digested but ultimately rejected neo-Kuyperian transformationalism. I didn't feel like the guy was being fair, and was way more worked up about it than the matter warranted -- though I have to give another listen....


I guess at the end of the day we are all influenced by somebody. I'm sure boot is too...ha

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