# Klineans: A valid Grammatico-Historical approach?



## Semper Fidelis (Nov 27, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> Some might find interesting that, at the recent AAR meetings (American Academy of Religion) in San Diego, Mike asked a renowned semitics scholar if he though that the Royal Grant/Suzerain Treaty approach "works" to explain the two sorts of covenants in Scripture and he said "Yes, absolutely."
> 
> ...



Dr. Clark,

I don't want to bog down the other thread with this discussion. My intent here is not to be pugilistic but to try to interact on this. I do appreciate your extended explanation but want to press this a bit more. I don't want this thread to turn into a thread that trashes the Klinean approach but I would like to understand/challenge a few things you wrote.

First, my concern with the terms is not antipathy to the differentiation between the two Covenants. My concern is that, perhaps, some lessons are drawn from a Hittite treaty that are not properly grammatico-historical and I'm trying to figure out how the Klinean knows where to stop drawing the lines of connection.

You said:


> I hasten to remind everyone not to set up a scheme whereby John 1:1-3 cannot happen. Of course it did happen. What happened? The Apostle John borrowed from ancient PAGAN Greek philosophy by calling Jesus the _Logos_. That was a bold move and one that, I gather, some would say that he either could not or should not have done.


On the surface this appeared to be a good analogy but then I reflected upon it a bit more.

First of all, John certainly borrowed a term but then he poured a _completely different_ meaning into the Greek understanding of the way the Logos was understood in pagan philosophy. Thus there are several issues of discontinuity that make your analogy fall down:

1. He was doing so under inspiration, Moses doesn't use the Royal Grant/Suzerain Treaty "lingo". Klineans do.
2. Is it clear to you that Moses borrowed from the Hittites or is it the other way around? If the former then the analogy would only work if we saw him using the language but then "cleaned up" the understanding of the terms the way that John does to the term Logos.
3. If the latter, what if the Hittites dorked up the treaty form that they copied? How do we know they did a good job of representing their treaty in the same way they imitated the way God cut His treaties with Abraham and others?
4. Finally, for the analogy to really "work" we would have to go back into Logos philsophy and _import_ pagan notions about what the Logos represented _into_ John so that we could have a fuller understanding of what he's talking about. In other words, the Klinean approach is not simply saying that the terms are the same but that we need to look at how the pagans understood the thing and bring them over into Scripture so we can understand how God intended us to understand them.

In fact, I think that last point really highlights my concern. Why would we not import the pagan Logos notions into the Johannine presentation of the Logos? After all, if the pagan understanding of the covenant for the Hittites is useful to understand the nature of the Covenants then why isn't the pagan understanding of the Logos useful for understanding the nature of Christ?

Blessings!

Rich


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## VictorBravo (Nov 27, 2007)

Rich, very good post that raises the same sort of concerns I have.

BTW, for people who don't know what "ANE" stands for (like me about 10 minutes ago), I think it means languages of the ancient near east.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 27, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> First, my concern with the terms is not antipathy to the differentiation between the two Covenants. My concern is that, perhaps, some lessons are drawn from a Hittite treaty that are not properly grammatico-historical and I'm trying to figure out how the Klinean knows where to stop drawing the lines of connection.



Hi Rich,

I don't see what the problem is. 

It is well established in contemporary OT scholarship that there are strong parallels between the ANE treaty patterns and elements of the biblical covenant formulae. Remember, MGK did not invent this line of investigation. George Mendenhall was already doing it and many have worked on it since. One of the reasons MGK was initially interested in this question, and one of arguments he pursued in _Treaty of the Great King_ is that the ANE (Ancient Near East) treaty forms reflected in Deuteronomy help us date Deut and refute the liberal allegations about the date and authorship of Deut.

Other scholars have also pointed out the correlation between the Royal Grant treaty and other of the covenant formulae in the OT. 

My appeal to John is only one example. There are many other examples of correlation between the biblical literature and the literature of the ANE and the 1st century. I am not an OT or NT scholar, but I honestly can't understand why anyone would object to making a good faith effort to read the Biblical text in its original context. Of course the writers used available literary forms. The writers themselves often reflect on that fact. We should draw the lines where ever they exist. Maybe I'm missing something? Is there something bad that might happen? What would it mean to go to far in drawing connections to the ANE? Our doctrine of inerrancy and inspiration says that God the Spirit inspired biblical texts, in a given time and place, making use of the personality, background, setting, language, etc of the time in which the text was written. The more we know about the setting the text, the better we understand it. 



> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I'm quite aware that John re-define the Logos! That's the point. He borrowed from a heavily laden philosophical term and made it a heavily laden biblical-theological term. As I understand it, Moses did the same with the ANE treaty forms available to him. He took what was a pagan oath-ritual and transformed it into a vehicle for conveying redemptive-historical truth -- in the case of the Suzerain-vassal treaty.



> Thus there are several issues of discontinuity that make your analogy fall down:
> 
> 1. He was doing so under inspiration, Moses doesn't use the Royal Grant/Suzerain Treaty "lingo". Klineans do.



"Klineans" (whoever they are!) didn't invent the term "Royal Grant!" This is an accepted term in OT/semitics scholarship.

You're not arguing, are you, that, if Moses didn't use the term, "RG," that we can't use it either, are you? That would an anti-intellectual argument and it would also be the destruction of theology. I don't understand the biblicism implicit in this line of argumentation. Of course we have to use extra-biblical terms to describe what we find in Scripture. We speak of the "prolgoue" to John's gospel. John himself doesn't characterize the opening verses of his gospel as a prologue. Does this mean that we cannot describe it as a prologue?

Must we be inspired by the Holy Spirit to imitate Christ's or Paul's or Peter's Christocentric hermeneutic? I don't think so. I think we can follow the hermeneutic laid out in Luke 24 or John 8 without being inspired by the Spirit. In the same way, I don't think we must be inspired by the Spirit to see connections between the OT and the ANE.



> 2. Is it clear to you that Moses borrowed from the Hittites or is it the other way arond? If the former then the analogy would only work if we saw him using the language but then "cleaned up" the understanding of the terms the way that John does to the term Logos.



Yes, I understand that Moses borrowed existing forms. Think of it this way. Did Moses invent Hebrew? Did Daniel invent Aramaic? Did Paul invent Greek? No. They all used existing language forms. We haven't believed in "Holy Spirit" languages for a very long time. With the discovery of the Oxyrynchus papyri and other such discoveries we've known for a long time that the language of the NT is not exceptional. Borrowing/using an existing language means using existing thought forms. It means negotiating with them to communicate what one wants to communicate. There's no substantial difference between using and existing language, as the biblical writers did, and using existing cultural forms to communicate biblical truth.



> 3. If the latter, what if the Hittites dorked up the treaty form that they copied? How do we know they did a good job of representing their treaty in the same way they imitated the way God cut His treaties with Abraham and others?



I'm afraid I don't understand this question. In any event I guess that I'm not qualified to answer it. So far as I know, per Mendenhall and Kline and McCarthy and others, there isn't a lot of question about the what the forms were and how they were employed -- at least not about the main lines.



> 4. Finally, for the analogy to really "work" we would have to go back into Logos philsophy and _import_ pagan notions about what the Logos represented _into_ John so that we could have a fuller understanding of what he's talking about. In other words, the Klinean approach is not simply saying that the terms are the same but that we need to look at how the pagans understood the thing and bring them over into Scripture so we can understand how God intended us to understand them.



No, I think there is a misunderstanding here. John appropriated a loaded philosophical term and Moses appropriated an existing civil-religious form or better, God himself appropriated covenant forms to express law and gospel. Neither of these things was innocent. That fact did not prevent God from appropriating and using them. 



> In fact, I think that last point really highlights my concern. Why would we not import the pagan Logos notions into the Johannine presentation of the Logos? After all, if the pagan understanding of the covenant for the Hittites is useful to understand the nature of the Covenants then why isn't the pagan understanding of the Logos useful for understanding the nature of Christ?



My point is only that the problems associated with a loaded term did not prevent John from using it. The religious associations attached to the Treaty forms did not prevent Moses from using them. I'm not saying that Moses appropriated the religious thought behind them.

Of course, as I pointed out before, Justin Martyr did exactly what you suggest and it led to serious error (a form of universalism). He failed to see how John re-defined the Logos. 

Moses' appropriation of the two major ANE treaty forms did involve some significant modification of them, but they seem to follow the main lines so that people of the 16th century BC would have recognized the forms that were being used.

Is there something else going on here, behind the question, or is it really just the idea that Moses appropriated ANE treaty forms that troubles?

rsc


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 27, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Is there something else going on here, behind the question, or is it really just the idea that Moses appropriated ANE treaty forms that troubles?
> 
> rsc



Nothing behind it other than curiosity. I understand what you're saying better. I'm not arguing against terminology for the sake of terminology. I didn't express my concern well.

I do understand what you're saying and can't say that I completely object to it. My concern is that a grammatico-historical process can also be abused as I've seen with some that want to import cultural ideas from Corinth to over-ride what Paul's point is. The culture informs but if the author was being "counter-cultural" in a certain instance then whatever you might learn from the culture might misinform as to the intent.

I think what I was trying to get at with the treaty is that the simililarity in form might be interesting and _might_ shed new light on the way a portion of Scipture is to be understood but, since it is coming from an outside source and we can't really go back and interview Moses as to why or if he borrowed certain forms or maybe even "cleaned them up" that it could lead to some improper conclusions.

So, when I read about the Royal Grant and Suzerain Treaty stuff I see mostly this kind of formula:

1. This is how the Hittites understood the Royal Grant/Suzerain Treaty.
2. The OT Covenants seem to be cast with a form similar to the ANE treaties.
3. Therefore, we ought to understand the Scriptures the same way the Hittites understood the Royal Grant/Suzerain Treaty.

I just don't see why the conclusion follows as a necessary inference from the premises. Is it not possible that the Hittites and the Scriptures have similar forms but that there is a different manner of understanding underlying the forms.

I'm really not trying to get your hackles up and I don't operate with hidden agendas.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 27, 2007)

Just a follow up.

1. I understand Gen 1-2 to be essentially a response to the various pagan explanations of reality and creation myths. Moses' narrative of Yahweh Elohim's fiat creation and institution of the Sabbath as a refutation of the sort of myths to which the Israelites were exposed. Knowing the pagan background, against which Gen 1-2 was written, adds layers of understanding of the narrative.

2. The genealogies Gen 5, 11, and Matthew 1 follow or reflect the ANE pattern of selective genealogies intended to make a point. The biblical genealogies are selective in ways that reflect their context.

3. Here is a critical review of Kenneth Kitchen's "maximalist" use of the ANE.
K. A. Kitchen and Minimalism By Charles David Isbell

It would be better to read Kitchen himself, but notice the point of contention and the use to which Kenneth puts the ANE background data.

4. One other instance comes to mind. Steve Baugh has done a great deal of work on Asia Minor, in order to understand Paul's background. He has shown that when Paul says "Soter panton anthropon" (Savior of all men) he is actually making a play on an motto etched into the base of statue in Ephesus: To Julius Caesar, Benefactor of All Men." The Ephesians erected the statue to honor Caesar for giving them a lot of what we would call federal money. Paul's point is that, no, it's Christ who is the benefactor of all men. If we didn't know about the statue, we wouldn't understand Paul's language and we would still be arguing about this passage relative to the atonement, when, in fact, read in context, it's not about the atonement at all, but about providence and divine goodness. Paul "borrows" an expression from the statue and uses it to make a point. He does the same thing in Titus 1:12 when he quotes a pagan poet to make a point: Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, and slow bellies." He quotes an epithet to make another point. This is a different sort of borrowing but it is borrowing.

We could also look at the very form of the gospels and epistles themselves. The NT writers did not invent these forms of discourse and expression, but they modified them to suit their needs. 

We could also look at the Apocalypse and correlate it to existing literary forms. It might not be too much to say that there are probably few absolutely original literary forms in Scripture. Nearly every literary form in Scripture, whether Proverbs or Psalms, or Prophetic lament, or legal prosecution by a minor prophet, borrowed from existing literary forms in order to express divine truth to people in a given context.

Our problem is that we are somewhat removed from some of these literary forms and we know them primarily from Scripture and that, perhaps, leads us to think that Scripture invented them. If we came to Scripture from within its own historical setting, however, we would see that the literary forms of Scripture are not unique.

rsc


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Rich,

No, the syllogism doesn't follow. It's not the case that because a given biblical writer borrowed from an existing literary or legal form that therefore the canon doesn't determine the meaning of the form as it is used in Scripture. The point of discovering the OT parallels to the ANE is to illumine the text of Scripture not to allow the pagans to determine the meaning of it.

That said, we can't read any piece of literature optimally outside of its original context, whether it is a creed or a theology or Scripture itself.

rsc



SemperFideles said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Is there something else going on here, behind the question, or is it really just the idea that Moses appropriated ANE treaty forms that troubles?
> ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 27, 2007)

Roger all. Thanks.


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 27, 2007)

There's this thread:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f40/Peter-gentry-image-god-26883/
where I gave a somewhat hesitant critique of the view that Man is the _imago dei_ at least in part because God has set him up in the earth the way that the idolatrous kings (pharaohs?) of Moses' day set up their "image" to send a message about their sovereignty.

Hesitant, because I thought I might be extrapolating a bit on a snippet of a larger article.

Still, I think at best this illustration probably should only be used, by way of comparison, at the level of application.


I actually am partial to the covenant-treaty idea, although I'm happy to say that once about 20 years ago I was positively _enamored_ with it, and am no longer. My take goes like this: God sets up original covenants with men. This fixes an ideological element in men's minds, and perhaps even something like a "form". Men develop the idea or form recreatively. The prevalent "form" of the ANE Hittites is found providentially to be a very suitable paradigm for later institutions of divine covenant, e.g. with Abraham.


On the subject of _Logos_, again I agree that John probably chose a term he knew was philosophical currency in the 1st century. But unless one starts redefining it right away in *biblical* categories, he will go off track just as quickly. Jesus is the Logos as the epitome of Word-revelation. An incarnate "Thus saith the Lord God Almighty." And not an emanation of divinity, nor an ideal "form", nor a respirating Syllogism.

John shows us that it is legitimate to borrow or appropriate the tools of the world for communicating truth, provided we prioritize revelation, and bound the discussion properly. Paul did something similar probably many places, but notably (in Scripture) in Athens.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Rich,

I didn't mean to suggest that there was a hidden agenda behind your question, but rather I was wondering if these questions were part of a larger discussion or another discussion about which I am not aware. People come to me with questions all the time and I find that in answering one question I'm actually getting involved in another without realizing it.

rsc


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 27, 2007)

Bruce,

I think that's sort of how I both view it and am concerned about it. I don't doubt that there is some Divine paradigm present in the Hittite treaties and I would guess that they borrowed from what they knew from the light of nature (a rememberance of God's interactions with mankind perhaps).

My concern is the latter and, if Moses did redefine some of the paradigm they recalled then looking at the Hittite expression of it might get us offtrack as well.

I think there's a misunderstanding that I'm trying to rend any cultural relevance from the text of Scripture. The question, really, is not whether or not there might have been similarities/dis-similarities but that I see the similarities pressed to the point of confidence that "...this is how the Hittites viewed a Royal Grant and so we can learn something new about what God was doing with Abraham....." I'm just not so sure but maybe if I studied it more I would be less concerned.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 27, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> I didn't mean to suggest that there was a hidden agenda behind your question, but rather I was wondering if these questions were part of a larger discussion or another discussion about which I am not aware. People come to me with questions all the time and I find that in answering one question I'm actually getting involved in another without realizing it.
> 
> rsc



Roger. I just didn't want you to think I was drawing you into a controversy for no reason. It's really not something I've seen discussed in a while and it really only started occurring to me after I read Mike's book a few months ago because I was surprised how much the language was used and my surface-level impression was "...Boy, it sure seems like there's a lot of stock placed in the Hittites to help us understand the Covenants...." 

It just surprised me and I thank you that you're willing to interact on it.


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## MW (Nov 27, 2007)

I think if this subject were studied carefully conservative people would be very concerned with scholars borrowing ideas from archaeology. First, the archaeologists aren't fully agreed on their discoveries. Second, the scholars themselves can't reach a consensus as to how these impact biblical interpretation. Third, from a reformed perspective, the most archaeology could tell us is that there was a common literary form; to jump to the idea that this common literary form tells us something about the content of biblical revelation is liberal. Besides, there are now so many different types of treaty documents which have been discovered, that the scholar can take his pick which one suits his purpose and squeeze the biblical data into the mould of his choice. E.g., the book of Joshua is now called a "land grant."

Kline didn't prove an early date for Deuteronomy. The treaty form dates as far back to Abraham and as far forward as the first century. The most one could determine is that the treaty form is early enough to make an early date for Deuteronomy credible, if in fact Deut. can be shown to possess the same literary features.


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## Jim Johnston (Nov 28, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> 4. One other instance comes to mind. Steve Baugh has done a great deal of work on Asia Minor, in order to understand Paul's background. He has shown that when Paul says "Soter panton anthropon" (Savior of all men) he is actually making a play on an motto etched into the base of statue in Ephesus: To Julius Caesar, Benefactor of All Men."



Scott, do you have the reference? Is this a paper I can find at WSC's site?

Thanks.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 28, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> I think if this subject were studied carefully conservative people would be very concerned with scholars borrowing ideas from archaeology. First, the archaeologists aren't fully agreed on their discoveries. Second, the scholars themselves can't reach a consensus as to how these impact biblical interpretation. Third, from a reformed perspective, the most archaeology could tell us is that there was a common literary form; to jump to the idea that this common literary form tells us something about the content of biblical revelation is liberal. Besides, there are now so many different types of treaty documents which have been discovered, that the scholar can take his pick which one suits his purpose and squeeze the biblical data into the mould of his choice. E.g., the book of Joshua is now called a "land grant."
> 
> Kline didn't prove an early date for Deuteronomy. The treaty form dates as far back to Abraham and as far forward as the first century. The most one could determine is that the treaty form is early enough to make an early date for Deuteronomy credible, if in fact Deut. can be shown to possess the same literary features.


Thanks to you and Bruce for cleaning up what my concern is. I don't always express myself clearly.


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## sotzo (Nov 28, 2007)

Excellent and helpful stuff in this thread. Thanks to all.

Did Kline ever interact (in writing or otherwise) with scholars who would argue that borrowing themes from pagan culture demonstrates that the biblical writers were simply "re-inventing". I know the largely defunct history of religions school argued this in NT scholarship circles, particularly with respect to Logos Christology, but I'm wondering if the same ever occurred in OT circles?


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 28, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> [...] to jump to the idea that this common literary form tells us something about the content of biblical revelation is liberal.



Thanks for the thoughts Matthew, they were helpful. I've pondered a little on this whole issue. It seems to me that there are two extremes to avoid:

[1] Scripture can only be understood, when we place it properly in its historical context. This is a mantra many of the NPPers have uttered perennially to me.

[2] The historical background has nothing to teach us about what we find in Scripture.

It seems to me that Scripture testifies to itself that it is sufficient to equip us for _every _good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17). However, this shouldn't stop us from historical enquiry if we believe that Scripture is not just a divine book but also (at the same time) a fully human book. However, surely historical enquiry will only _nuance _parts of Scripture, and is _not needed_ to be equipped for every good work. The liberal position denies this.

I think Christian scholars need to keep up with archaeology and historical inquiry to make sure the non-Christian / liberal scholars don't pull wool over people's eyes: wtiness the _Da Vinci_ code nonsense, and the great work NT scholars (like Darryl Bock and Richard Bauckham) have done on the gnostic gospels.

However, with Matthew I think _some _of the inscriptional, archaeological, and historical work currently being done is a long shot; it must be frankly acknowledged how little we know of the ANE as well as the 1st century. Just think how difficult it is in a court trial to establish exactly what happened, when people who are alive are witnesses, let alone go back thousands of years without any witnesses alive whatsoever.

Every blessing.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 28, 2007)

Hi Tom,

It was a journal article. I don't remember where or when he published it. I can't remember where or when I've written things!

I'll ask him and report back.

rsc



Tom Bombadil said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > 4. One other instance comes to mind. Steve Baugh has done a great deal of work on Asia Minor, in order to understand Paul's background. He has shown that when Paul says "Soter panton anthropon" (Savior of all men) he is actually making a play on an motto etched into the base of statue in Ephesus: To Julius Caesar, Benefactor of All Men."
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 28, 2007)

I can't imagine anyone disputing the notion that 

[1] Scripture can only be understood, when we place it properly in its historical context.​
The problem is not with this principle it's rather with the application of it by the NPP/FV. The NPP writers, of which the FV are wholly derivative on the important 1st century questions, have drawn conclusions that are not warranted by the evidence they have adduced.

Everyone ought to read the third volume of Mike Horton's series published at WJKP. It's a brilliant refutation of the NPP and the best part of it, in this regard, is the way he shows that the best reading of the historical/archeological evidence favor the historic Protestant reading of the situation. The problem is not that of putting the Scriptures in their historical context. Rather, the problem is that the NPP fellows assume only two models: Pelagius, as it were, or Augustine. Their apparent ignorance of the history of theology blinds them to the existence of a third model, again speaking anarchronistically: semi-Pelagianism or a "grace and cooperation with grace" system.

This is what many of the rabbis were actually arguing and it's what the medieval church taught and it's what was rejected by the Reformation.

There's no good reason to step away from reading the Scriptures in their historical context. Does our knowledge of the historical context grow and change? Yes, of course. That's why good scholarship is so important. Remember that the Old Princeton folk and the Old Westminster folk (and their successors) always argued that the problem with liberalism is not that they were doing scholarship but that they were doing bad scholarship. There's no reason to fear evidence. I'm a Van Tillian and I'm not naive about what folks do with evidence, and I'm not accusing anyone here of avoiding evidence, but I'm encouraging us to continue to dig, to do good work, to gather as much historical evidence as possible so that we can read the text of Scripture in the light of its context. 

rsc


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 28, 2007)

It's Horton, Covenant and Union with Christ:

Westminster Seminary California Bookstore


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2007)

That book is already out? I was at a seminary bookstore the other day and they didn't have it (for any number of reasons, though). Looks good. Thanks.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 28, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I can't imagine anyone disputing the notion that
> 
> [1] Scripture can only be understood, when we place it properly in its historical context.​



Sir,

Respectfully, You keep framing the issue as if that is in contention. Note that the title of the thread and the interrogative has been about whether or not the particular grammatico-historical conclusions formed by Kline and others are _valid_ and not whether or not historical or cultural settings are key in proper hermaneutics.

I apologize if I'm slow in this thread but I haven't really comprehended the _necessary_ connection that warrants some Klinean scholars to argue that Moses borrowed from the surrounding pagan nations. It may be beyond what can be reasonably expected from a thread but summarizing the concern as inherently anti-historical is really not what I've stated or anyone else.

I do appreciate your irenic tone and am grateful for your willingness to interact.


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 28, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > I can't imagine anyone disputing the notion that
> ...



I certainly have nothing to add to this discussion, especially alongside the very helpful points already being made by you, Scott, Bruce and others. But just to clarify on this point, that statement Dr. Clark quoted above _was_ in fact what Marty called one of the "two extremes to avoid" with respect to hermeneutics, in his last post.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 28, 2007)

Oops. You're right Chris. There did seem to be a latent discussion in that regard but I apologize to Dr. Clark for reading too much into what he wrote.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 28, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> That book is already out? I was at a seminary bookstore the other day and they didn't have it (for any number of reasons, though). Looks good. Thanks.



Bradford, we have it in stock at the WSC bookstore.

Westminster Seminary California Bookstore

rsc


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 28, 2007)

ps. It's _Covenant and Salvation_, not Covenant and Union with Christ.


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 29, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> It's Horton, Covenant and Union with Christ:
> 
> Westminster Seminary California Bookstore



I really wish WSC bookstore would ship internationally for us non-USers ... hint, hint ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 29, 2007)

JohnOwen007 said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > It's Horton, Covenant and Union with Christ:
> ...



Well, they do ship to Japan...to U.S. Military Bases!


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 29, 2007)

Tom Bombadil said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > 4. One other instance comes to mind. Steve Baugh has done a great deal of work on Asia Minor, in order to understand Paul's background. He has shown that when Paul says "Soter panton anthropon" (Savior of all men) he is actually making a play on an motto etched into the base of statue in Ephesus: To Julius Caesar, Benefactor of All Men."
> ...



Here it is:

Baugh, Steven M., '"Savior of all people" : 1 Tim 4:10 in context.' , _Westminster Theological Journal_, 54/2 (Fall 1992):331-340.

Blessings.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 29, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> > That book is already out? I was at a seminary bookstore the other day and they didn't have it (for any number of reasons, though). Looks good. Thanks.
> ...



Thanks for the link Dr. Clark, I sent this and another book link to my family as something they can buy me as a gift.


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 29, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Well, they do ship to Japan...to U.S. Military Bases!



Cool!  This must've changed recently? I'll check it out ... mind you Australia is all the way down under, the parcels might be destroyed by mould and rust by the time they arrive  ...


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 29, 2007)

I think they've always shipped via US Postal Service. We get mail delivered out here at the regular rates as they stick them on military flights if it's first class or priority mail or higher. It takes a few more days obviously but it's not too bad. Parcel post, on the other hand, takes over a month.

I'm not sure if there are any U.S. military bases in Australia if you had friends there that could forward a book. I imagine if you really pleaded with the bookstore guy at WSC and worked with him to get the additional $$ then he might be willing to ship to you.

I remember Matthew Winzer has the same problem. I really liked visiting Australia but that big ocean makes a difference when many of the books you want aren't published on your continent. Perhaps when the Kindle and other ebook devices become more prevalent you'll be able to get this stuff over eBook and actually like reading it that way. For all my technological prowess, I still prefer real books when I need to learn.


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## sotzo (Nov 29, 2007)

Any thoughts on post 15 above? Would love to hear insight on this since I am just now beginning to read Kline but haven't seen his interaction with secular/liberal scholars yet.


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 29, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I can't imagine anyone disputing the notion that
> 
> [1] Scripture can only be understood, when we place it properly in its historical context.​



So if I give someone a Bible, I can't say, "read that, it'll equip you for every good work". Rather I have to say, "you can _*only *_understand that book when I've taught you about ANE treaties, and 1st century Jewish / Graeco-Roman culture"? I would've thought the canon itself provides enough of a context to allow Scripture to do its job.

As I said above that doesn't mean we don't explore background cultures and the like, but surely it will only help with nuancing. This is simply the ramification of the classic doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 29, 2007)

I've scanned it to PDF and am waiting for my next-door neighbor to post it to his WSCAL site.

rsc



JohnOwen007 said:


> Tom Bombadil said:
> 
> 
> > R. Scott Clark said:
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 29, 2007)

Joel,

As I understand him, Kline was not arguing that Moses borrowed "themes," if by that one means that Moses derived the _substance_ of his theology or doctrine from the surrounding culture. That was my point about the Logos Christology. That's what, as I understand it, Moses DID NOT do. 

What he did was to borrow forms of expression, rhetorical devices, and adapt existing treaty forms. If we're right that God the Spirit inspired the writing of Scripture, then we should say that the Spirit moved Moses to employ known cultural forms to express the relations between God and man in the garden (a Suzerain-vassal treaty, a covenant of works) and after the fall (Royal Grant covenant, or a covenant of grace). 

In his earlier work he tended to interact with the academic OT guild more often than he did in his later work, where he tended to focus on OT hermeneutics/theology.





You can read much of his material online.

rsc




sotzo said:


> Excellent and helpful stuff in this thread. Thanks to all.
> 
> Did Kline ever interact (in writing or otherwise) with scholars who would argue that borrowing themes from pagan culture demonstrates that the biblical writers were simply "re-inventing". I know the largely defunct history of religions school argued this in NT scholarship circles, particularly with respect to Logos Christology, but I'm wondering if the same ever occurred in OT circles?


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