# Pyramid Schemes and Amway Stuff



## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 16, 2006)

I have a friend who is trying a pyramid scheme.

What reasons would you give biblically that demonstrate "pyramiding" is unbiblical or wrong?

Thoughts?


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## Craig (Mar 16, 2006)

One could argue that Amway is a valid way of making money...I'd say it's tough to defend, though.

Having been part of a different pyramid scheme about 4 years ago, I can tell people that the motivation that keeps people involved is generally greed. 

Other times it's simply fear: fear God won't provide for you.
Laziness: it's a pre-digested scheme "proven" to work...
You end up alienating friends and family instead of strengthening those relationships.

Having said that, you can learn a lot from doing them! I learned self motivation and a lot about selling. You learn to think quickly on your feet. In the end, however, the product your peddling is usually just the business concept and not any valuable commodity. It's like using faulty scales, which God deplores. The value simply isn't real.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 16, 2006)

Matt,

Let's be clear in our definitions here.

Amway does not fit your typical definition of a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme is technically one in which no tangible product or service is offered and the income is generated merely by signing up people under your organization.

That one is fairly easy to show as unbiblical - you are collecting or soliciting money from people without any tangible product or service in return. The sole motivation is greed.

Amway (and things like it) are a bit harder to criticize as "unbiblical" on the surface. Theoretically, I don't see a real difference between franchising and Amway. McDonalds is the only person allowed to certify you as a McDonalds franchise and you have to sell their product only. With Amway, each seller is a franchise owner and they can sign up franchisers below them that sell product.

My problems with Amway are not in their "franchising" model but in the cult-like atmosphere that surrounds them. I've been variously interested in Amway and then Quixtar (sp?) but, honestly, the whole "enthusiasm" surrounding them turns me off. In order to succeed in those things you have to spend a lot of time doing the pep rally things and listening to tapes. The atmosphere is one of frankly orgasmic excitement at monetary success. Motivational and transformational speeches abound. 

My dad participated in that stuff when I was a kid and his shelves were filled with "positive thinking" books. People I know who do it have the "telltale" Amway spirit in all their speech. Interestingly, I sold knives one summer between college semesters. The pep rally spirit was reminiscent there. "Let's be positive. Let's sell!" is just pounded into your head. You even turn into a salesman and think you have to approach all of life after a while as if you're an insurance salesman. It's hard to describe fully but it is definitely NOT a Christian atmosphere.

Within the Church, especially, I think it is dangerous to introduce this stuff. I've known of Churches where the pastor was on the upline of all his congregants and benefitting from their participation in Amway. Beyond that, imagine the issues of the mere appearance that one member is benefitting financially from another. When you combine it with the semi-cultic mindset of most of these things I just stay clear of them. The Church body is much more important to me than earthly riches.

Now affiliate marketing is completely different...

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 16, 2006)

Pyramid schemes are against the law...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edcams/bizopps/coninfo.html

http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/newsarchive.html

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by Scott Bushey]


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Craig_
> One could argue that Amway is a valid way of making money...I'd say it's tough to defend, though.
> 
> Having been part of a different pyramid scheme about 4 years ago, I can tell people that the motivation that keeps people involved is generally greed.
> ...



A big  to this. 

I tried this once in college a while back. I don't think you could say the scheme itself as a job is unbiblical. You're just selling stuff and recruiting more people to sell stuff. 
But the culture is definitely driven by "sanctified" greed (i.e. "you can do so much more for people if you have more money..." ). And in effect they teach you to put a dollar sign on everyone's head. Every one you meet is a potential business partner, a way to boost your monthly income. That is not the Christian way of life at all. It's just a substitute for the gospel. Rather than bringing people to Jesus to gain heaven, your bringing people to the business to gain heaven on earth.....


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 16, 2006)

Well said Patrick. I was trying to find the words.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 16, 2006)

25 years ago I got lured into one of their (Amway) pep meetings and was given the presentation and a bunch of tapes. They sounded like charismatic revival meetings. On one of them, Rich DeVoe was screaming, "Anyone who doesn't want to do this is stupid." I started thinking of Jim Jones.

It spooked me because it was so cult-like. The friend who tried to get me in was dismayed that I didn't go along. He became quite vicious toward me, as if I were attacking his very being for not wanting to devote my life to selling soap and a scheme.

10 years ago another lawyer quasi-friend conned me into going to a meeting about a wonderful business opportunity. I asked him directly, "it's not Amway, is it?" He said no.

It turned out to be Amway's successor corporation. When the presentation got to that part, I shot the guy an angry glance, thanked him for misleading me, and walked out.

It is greed based. Participants are taught to be deceptive to bring in people to hear the spiel. Those two things are unbiblical enough for me to reject it.

Vic

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by victorbravo]


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## RamistThomist (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Craig_
> ...



I am not in one of these things (in fact, I still don't know what it is), but I can definitely relate to the whole "sanctified" greed. That was convicting.


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## RamistThomist (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by victorbravo_
> On one of them, Rich DeVoe was screaming, "Anyone who doesn't want to do this is stupid." I started thinking of Jim Jones.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 16, 2006)

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by victorbravo]


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## CDM (Mar 16, 2006)

> ...Participants are taught to be deceptive to bring in people to hear the spiel. Those two things are unbiblical enough for me to reject it.



Kinda like an Arminian having "Community Ice Cream Festivals" or coffee houses in the church complete with pseudo-Christian jazz music and "Jesus Tees" all to get them to buy into the Jesus plan their hawking.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by victorbravo_
> 25 years ago I got lured into one of their (Amway) pep meetings and was given the presentation and a bunch of tapes. They sounded like charismatic revival meetings. On one of them, Rich DeVoe was screaming, "Anyone who doesn't want to do this is stupid." I started thinking of Jim Jones.


You had me in stitches too.

I was given a tape by some guy with this super-successful guy who was making money hand over fist with Quixtar. His presentation had points like this:

"Wouldn't it be great to be so rich that you wouldn't have to have your kids move away when they get married? What if you could say to your daughter's future husband: 'How would you like me to just pay you to be my daughter's husband? Here's a house. You don't have to work..."

and

"I hear from some people who are Christians that have this crazy idea that work is somehow a good thing. Where in the Bible does it say that work is good..."

And so on with lots of applause. Sanctified greed is a really good term for it.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 17, 2006)

> Matt. 19:
> 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "œAssuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."



Keep in mind, "rich" in Jesus day meant you had enough money to buy food for a week and you had more than one set of clothes! 






> "I hear from some people who are Christians that have this crazy idea that work is somehow a good thing. Where in the Bible does it say that work is good..."


It says it right here  


> 1 Thess. 4:
> 9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11 *that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands,* as we commanded you, 12 *that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.*


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## VictorBravo (Mar 17, 2006)

Or even the second part of the 4th commandment: 

"Six days shalt thou labor".


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks guys. I agree labor is good. Adam was given a job right after being created - he didn't lounge around all day making money off of his down-line franchisers. I presented those examples to show how ignorant the speaker was about what the Bible actually said about work.

If you read Edersheim, he points out how Jewish tradition placed great value on hard work in the Talmud. Rabbis highly commend it and even talk about how much value they get out of it. Hebrew thought does not have the same tradition of lounging around thinking and eschewing physical labor like the Greeks did.


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