# Ligonier Advanced Systematic Theology Certificate



## rpeters (Feb 21, 2011)

I was viewing Ligonier's site and stumbled upon their Advanced Systematic Theology Certificate. My first impression was like WOW! This is intense! So, has anyone took this group of courses?

Study Systematic Theology at Ligonier Academy


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 21, 2011)

It looks like it is just reading and writing a paper on the reading. Why pay for the certificate? Just do the reading on your own.


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## CharlieJ (Feb 21, 2011)

This doesn't look intense at all, though it might be for a certificate. I'm not sure what the equivalent of an advanced certificate is. One 4-5,000 word paper seems really light. I had to do at least 1 of those (sometimes longer) for every seminary class, and that's plus smaller papers and exams, often multi-hour oral exams. I agree with Boliver. Just read the books.


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## Christopher88 (Feb 21, 2011)

It gives you the course syllabus for free, just go out read the books and you have the same thing.


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## Steve Curtis (Feb 21, 2011)

, , and !


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## jogri17 (Feb 21, 2011)

How is it useful? It is not accredited and I truly doubt any seminary would recognize the work. You're paying money for email exchanges, to have a paper graded, and to receive a piece of paper that isn't recognized officially by the government NOR unofficially by 99.9% of the Christian Community. It is a great thing to hang on your wall, I guess.


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## CharlieJ (Feb 21, 2011)

Having looked at the syllabus now, it's even less intense than I thought. A good number of the "courses" require about 50 pages of Berkhof and 2 popular-level books. There's hardly a scholarly monograph on the whole list, and the whole "3-year" course contains less required reading than I read last year.


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## reformedminister (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm surprised there is such a critique of something designed for those who want a more thorough knowledge of the Christian faith. Laypersons are mostly the ones who would be interested in this. Courses like this challenge students by encouraging them to think and express their thoughts. Good grief!


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## Whitefield (Feb 22, 2011)

reformedminister said:


> I'm surprised there is such a critique of something designed for those who want a more thorough knowledge of the Christian faith. Laypersons are mostly the ones who would be interested in this. Courses like this challenge students by encouraging them to think and express their thoughts. Good grief!


 
I agree with Andy. I can see a church using this certificate in deciding on hiring/promoting staff within a church.


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## EverReforming (Feb 22, 2011)

reformedminister said:


> I'm surprised there is such a critique of something designed for those who want a more thorough knowledge of the Christian faith. Laypersons are mostly the ones who would be interested in this. Courses like this challenge students by encouraging them to think and express their thoughts. Good grief!


 
Exactly. This is the type of course that I doubt a seminary student/graduate would really get much use out of, but I can see the value to the lay-person.

I'd think of it like someone going to their local community college to take some adult education classes about, say, cooking. They're not looking to become the head chef at a 5-star restaurant, they're just doing it because of the personal enrichment. I think this is something like that, geared towards that lay-person who is just looking for an opportunity to learn and grow, but not necessarily the "professional" minister.


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## CharlieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

EverReforming said:


> Exactly. This is the type of course that I doubt a seminary student/graduate would really get much use out of, but I can see the value to the lay-person.
> 
> I'd think of it like someone going to their local community college to take some adult education classes about, say, cooking. They're not looking to become the head chef at a 5-star restaurant, they're just doing it because of the personal enrichment. I think this is something like that, geared towards that lay-person who is just looking for an opportunity to learn and grow, but not necessarily the "professional" minister.



I would agree with you, but that's not the way the course is advertised. On this page, the program is for "laypeople, ministers, and educators." The advanced certificate is described as "for students who seek extensive knowledge and deep exploration in a topic," and the reading requirements are described as "approximately equivalent to graduate school/seminary level reading requirements." That's simply not the case.


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## EverReforming (Feb 22, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> I would agree with you, but that's not the way the course is advertised. On this page, the program is for "laypeople, ministers, and educators." The advanced certificate is described as "for students who seek extensive knowledge and deep exploration in a topic," and the reading requirements are described as "approximately equivalent to graduate school/seminary level reading requirements." That's simply not the case.


 
The FAQ states the following though.



> Are the Advanced certificate programs equivalent to an undergraduate or graduate degree program? Is the certificate a degree?
> 
> No, the Certificate programs are, by definition, not degree programs, and their course requirements are not designed to be equivalent to an undergraduate or graduate level degree program. Undergraduate and graduate level degree programs ordinarily require substantially more or different work than that which is required in the Advanced Level Certificate programs.



So, yeah, from a professional or scholarly standpoint, I don't think a minister will likely gain much benefit from this course, so I think the marketing might be a bit ambitious.  But as far as just something for personal growth, I could see them as a way for someone to broaden their knowledge, as long as the person signing up for them understands the limitations of an unaccredited certificate course.


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 22, 2011)

Recently here on PB we were discussing whether a church should be in charge of educating pastors or if seminary could do it. I voted seminary, but looking at this I would have to say that I believe it would be much better for the local church to hand out reading assignments and discuss the books with the laymember who desires to learn more. Would it not be more profitable to sit down with the pastor or leaders of a church to discuss theological topics vs. paying someone to read your paper and answer emails?


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## alb1 (Feb 22, 2011)

We also have to take off our Presbyterian blinders for a moment and realize that not all pastors have gone through the seminary training we require. For some already in the field, completing a low cost, online, advanced Ligonier certificate can be a great asset to their ministry.


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## rpeters (Feb 22, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Recently here on PB we were discussing whether a church should be in charge of educating pastors or if seminary could do it. I voted seminary, but looking at this I would have to say that I believe it would be much better for the local church to hand out reading assignments and discuss the books with the laymember who desires to learn more.



How did this change your vote from seminary only to maybe seminary and the church?


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 22, 2011)

For pastors it is seminary. For lay people I say church. Sorry for the confusion.


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## rpeters (Feb 22, 2011)

I guess that is a whole other thread....


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 22, 2011)

You won't hear any poo-pooing about this curriculum from me. If anyone here wants to go for it, I say more power to ya!

And for the record - this is a lot of work for a certificate. And while it may not be as intense as some courses at some seminaries, I can assure you that from regular encounters with graduates of a number of accredited seminaries, the workload represented here is greater than they did in their MDiv work. 

Looking over the required reading - if you actually complete the required reading and the requisite reflection papers you will be able to interact intelligently with all but the most adept seminarians from the best seminaries. What you will lack, however, will be the practice in doing research and articulating a thesis and defending it at length. (But on second thought, there are a number of guys I've met who never once wrote a research paper, not even one.) But if you do this coursework and interact with someone as a mentor, you'll be better prepared than most the blithering nincompoops I interact with who graduated from "Billy Bob's School of Religiousness."

In short, if I were a pastor and my congregants wanted to do this, I'd be most pleased with them. In fact, I'd start up a group in which we could discuss and reflect and thereby make up some of that vital interaction that individual studies lack.


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## Christopher88 (Feb 22, 2011)

alb1 said:


> We also have to take off our Presbyterian blinders for a moment and realize that not all pastors have gone through the seminary training we require. For some already in the field, completing a low cost, online, advanced Ligonier certificate can be a great asset to their ministry.


Is that why the gospel is not preached in the American Church? Lack of theological education. (Small joke, there are plenty of non formal educated great pastors.C.J. Mahaney being one)


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 22, 2011)

Sonny said:


> Is that why the gospel is not preached in the American Church? Lack of theological education.


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 23, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Having looked at the syllabus now, it's even less intense than I thought. A good number of the "courses" require about 50 pages of Berkhof and 2 popular-level books. There's hardly a scholarly monograph on the whole list, and the whole "3-year" course contains less required reading than I read last year.


 
Charlie - Please note that this certificate is in theology alone. It isn't a full-orbed Divinity curriculum. You're comparing what you did in Greek, NT, Hermeneutics, Hebrew, OT, Church History, Systematics, and practical theology with what this course would have you do for one subject. Yes, it is broken down into bite sized bits. But they're reading and having to reflect on just about every doctrine there is. Regarding the scholarly quality of the books, for the record I've seen most these books on required reading lists from syllabi at a number of Reformed (or Reformed leaning) schools.


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## Timothy William (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm currently in the early stages of a course similar to this one run by Moore College, the Sydney Anglican theological college. It doesn't count towards college credit (though Moore is accredited), and from a purely intellectual standpoint it isn't especially difficult. One could pass the exams just by reading and remembering the course notes. The value is in the discussions (one of our pastors leads small group or individual discussions for those doing the course; there are also online students' forums) and in the discipline of studying various books and topics in a logical fashion. The Moore course places much more emphasis than Ligonier on studying particular books of the Bible, about half the units would be about one book. While of course one could learn as much simply by buying and reading relevant books for themselves, few people do, and many wouldn't know which books to read or how to study them in much depth by themselves.


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## MLCOPE2 (Feb 27, 2011)

SolaScriptura said:


> "Billy Bob's School of Religiousness."


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## Scott1 (Feb 27, 2011)

This is a great resource, and I have downloaded the list for future reading.

It would be helpful for "distance learning" and I'm going to recommend it to someone who is serving in a "destitute" region who may not have ready access to seminary or even good theology classes to audit.

It's also a thumbnail sketch of trustworthy works and authors in various topics of theology.

There is even at least one resource by someone who posts on Puritan Board (Rev. Hyde).


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 27, 2011)

My wife and i will be doing the Introductory Level Certificate on Biblical studies starting this month. For new Christians, especially those of us with little education, I would believe it to be a good start.


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