# Regulative Principle and Women Reading



## Cacklewack (Jul 19, 2004)

Today, a fellow from a sister PCA church in the Portland area attended our church and I spoke with him regarding his thoughts on the service. He seemed only to have one complaint, that is, women reading the Word of God to the congregation. 

Coming from a dispensational, non-denominational background, I hadn't thought much of this, but recently I have been reading much literature regarding the regulative principle in worship, and I have been thinking about it's implications on the way we worship. 

What are your thoughts on women reading the Word to the congregation during the service? It seems to very obviously contradict the RP. If so, what articles, helps, etc. can any of you point me to that I could read up on further, for my own study and/or for my pastor? Thank you kindly my friends. 

In Him,
Matt


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 19, 2004)

Here is a start:

Q156: Is the word of God to be read by all? 
A156: Although all are not to be permitted to read the word publicly to the congregation,[1] yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves,[2] and with their families:[3] to which end, the holy scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.[4] 

1. Deut. 31:9, 11-13; Neh. 8:2-3; 9:3-5
2. Deut. 17:19; Rev. 1:3; John 5:39; Isa. 34:16
3. Deut. 6:6-9; Gen. 18:17, 19; Psa. 78:5-7
4. I Cor. 14:6, 9, 11-12, 15-16, 24, 27-28


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## sosipater (Jul 20, 2004)

*How about praying?*

I am sure this has been covered here before, but what about a woman praying during the worship service? By this I mean she leads the congregation in a corporate prayer. Is this allowed under the RPW?


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 20, 2004)

Where there are men whom are able to step up to the plate, stepping up to the plate they should! I have yet to find a congregation where there were no men whom were capable. This is one of the main problems with our society today, men who wear skirts.............

See this excellent article:

http://www.semperreformanda.com/skirts.htm


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 20, 2004)

[quote:8cd2952c54="Scott Bushey"]Where there are men whom are able to step up to the plate, stepping up to the plate they should! I have yet to find a congregation where there were no men whom were capable. This is one of the main problems with our society today, men who wear skirts.............

See this excellent article:

http://www.semperreformanda.com/skirts.htm[/quote:8cd2952c54]

Or as the Governator would say, they are "girly men!" 

On a more serious note, women should not be leading over men. To me anyway, that means no public leading role in worship. They are to remain silent. I just don't see any reason or justification for women leading in worship. Even in the case where there are no men to lead, usually that congregation(at least in Presbyterian circles) has an interim session supplied by a nearby congregation so that worship may continue under biblical guidelines.


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## yeutter (Jul 20, 2004)

I attended a Reformed Episcopal Church in Hamilton, Ontario two Lord's days ago. Both the Scripture readings were given by women. This is not just a PCA problem.


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## Learner (Jul 20, 2004)

How about this situation?In S.Korea if an English native wants to understand a sermon intelligently sometimes the voice one hears translating through the headset is that of a female(sometimes the pastor's wife).


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## pastorway (Jul 20, 2004)

As long as she is translating and not doing the preaching there should be no problem there. Praise God for giving her the ability to serve this way so that those who speak different languages can worship together!

Phillip


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## cupotea (Jul 23, 2004)

Women should not be doing any sort of leadership in the formal worship service; be it preaching, reading the word, assisting with the Lord's Supper, etc. I would even go so far as to say that it's unnecessary for women to be up front "singing/leading" the congregational singing. 

When the Word of God is read publicly, it almost seems to rise above its usual holiness to further exalted place. When the Word is read publicly in worship, the Spirit is there in a unique way to work in the hearts of the hearers. And a woman should not be up there to do the leading.

I'm very traditional. In the church I grew up in, my pastor always said of theology and Christian practice, "If it's new, it's probably wrong." Sabbath-negligence, female-pastors, and end-times mumbo-jumbo are just a few examples of fairly "new" concepts to Christianity (a couple hundred years maybe?). And women reading Scripture during the service would fall into that category, if I am not mistaken.

Now, ask me if I would find that to be a reason to not attend a specific church, even if its reformed. Well, in a more-perfect world, yes it would be enough reason for me personally. However, I just happen to be attending a PCA church where ladies do read the Word during corporate worship. And everytime it happens, I get very uncomfortable. :flaming: 

The whole idea of women being able to do such things during corporate worship clearly stems from the femist-movement, but with that "Christian" twist to it. 

I'm inclined to go so far as to say that the Pastor should do the public reading whenever possible, and not the congregants. He is acting as our Christian priest, and in the Old Testament, you certainly see the spiritual leaders of the day doing the public reading of the Word, and not Joe Smith from the assembly. 

:wr50:


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## Cacklewack (Jul 23, 2004)

[quote:11d6d90bfb="ReformedLadyRed"]Women should not be doing any sort of leadership in the formal worship service; be it preaching, reading the word, assisting with the Lord's Supper, etc. I would even go so far as to say that it's unnecessary for women to be up front "singing/leading" the congregational singing. 

When the Word of God is read publicly, it almost seems to rise above its usual holiness to further exalted place. When the Word is read publicly in worship, the Spirit is there in a unique way to work in the hearts of the hearers. And a woman should not be up there to do the leading.

I'm very traditional. In the church I grew up in, my pastor always said of theology and Christian practice, "If it's new, it's probably wrong." Sabbath-negligence, female-pastors, and end-times mumbo-jumbo are just a few examples of fairly "new" concepts to Christianity (a couple hundred years maybe?). And women reading Scripture during the service would fall into that category, if I am not mistaken.

Now, ask me if I would find that to be a reason to not attend a specific church, even if its reformed. Well, in a more-perfect world, yes it would be enough reason for me personally. However, I just happen to be attending a PCA church where ladies do read the Word during corporate worship. And everytime it happens, I get very uncomfortable. :flaming: 

The whole idea of women being able to do such things during corporate worship clearly stems from the femist-movement, but with that "Christian" twist to it. 

I'm inclined to go so far as to say that the Pastor should do the public reading whenever possible, and not the congregants. He is acting as our Christian priest, and in the Old Testament, you certainly see the spiritual leaders of the day doing the public reading of the Word, and not Joe Smith from the assembly. 

:wr50:[/quote:11d6d90bfb]

Amen sister! 

In Him,
Matt


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 20, 2004)

I fully concur that women ought not to be reading Scriptures to the congregation in public worship. 

I also think women ought not to be precenting (ie., leading the singing) either. Any thoughts on this aspect of the issue of the role of women in church services?


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## Scott (Oct 20, 2004)

I think webmaster hit the nail on the head. This is not an issue of sex so much as an issue of ordination. Of course, ordination settles the issue, as only men may be lawfully ordained. 

It is important to understand why the reading of the Word is included in worship. Worship is a primarily dialogue between God and His Bride, the people of God. There are two types of activities in worship, the parte dei (acts done on behalf of God) and the parte homini (acts done on the part of man, or the people). The reading of the Word is an act done on behalf of God. It is the most direct way God speaks to His people. Only lawfully appointed pastors may legally speak for God. As Christ said about those whom he appoints (referring to the 72 and applying by extension to others ordained): "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." 

It is important to remember that public worship is not simply a Bible study, religious lecture, or teaching event. It is primarily communication between God and his Bride. That is why we ordain ministers. 

Of course only men may be ordained. The Bible expressly requires this. It makes sense. The minister represents God before the congregation. God is male, so the minister needs to be male to do this. The collective identity of the congregation, or laity, is feminine. She is God's bride. To have woman to woman in this type of marital or covenant relation is fundamentally homosexual.

Scott

[Edited on 20-10-2004 by Scott]


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## py3ak (Oct 20, 2004)

Scott,

Wouldn't it be more correct to say "God is masculine"?


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Oct 20, 2004)

While I probably have to agree with what has already been said I do see a tiny difference between a woman having authority and preaching and a woman reading and repeating what the Bible says. I do not want to create an arguement over this but someone earlier said it was fine for a woman to translate what the pastor was saying to a male because she is not actually preaching. How is that different from reading scripture? She does not invent the words etc... it is already laid out before her. Neither does this mean she has authority over men as most probably she has been told to read the scripture out by the pastor (I am assuming that is the case within an ordered service)


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## Saiph (Oct 20, 2004)

I Cor. 10:5 

"But every woman who *prays or prophesies* with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. "



Forget the head covering argument for a moment . . . note that women were PROPHESYING ? ? ? ? ? 

What is that to reading scripture aloud to the congragation ?

Fairly regulative statement by Paul if you ask me. . . 

Women should pray and speak and read aloud. . . . . they can partake in the liturgy. They simply cannot serve the sacraments or excercise Church discipline.


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## Scott (Oct 21, 2004)

Mark: What are the respective roles of the laity and clergy in worship? 

[Edited on 21-10-2004 by Scott]


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## Scott (Oct 21, 2004)

I have a question for those who don't think that one needs to be ordained in order to read scriptures in public worship. 

What is the purpose of reading scriptures in public worship?


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## hehegirl89 (Dec 4, 2004)

I don't believe that it is even a RPW issue. The Bible specifically prohibits women from doing any sort of leadership in worship.

I Cor 14:
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I Tim 2:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


That being said, I believe that women teaching, speaking, and leading in church services is not even a matter of RPW, but of prohibiting what the Bible itself says is prohibited.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hehegirl89_
> I don't believe that it is even a RPW issue. The Bible specifically prohibits women from doing any sort of leadership in worship.
> 
> I Cor 14:
> ...



I would agree that the Bible clearly forbids women to teach, speak and lead in the church. The RPW is not the basis for the objection but it may be relevant in the sense that the RPW forbids that which is not commanded in the worship of God. 

Jessica (that is my wife's name, by the way), welcome to the Puritan Board! 

I noticed that you are attending a Presbyterian Reformed Church in Charlotte. If it is the same church I am thinking of, and Timothy Worrell is the pastor, then that's my denomination too. I noticed too that you are Southern and Calvinistic -- an excellent combination, by God's grace!  May the Lord bless you, sister!


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by yeutter_
> I attended a Reformed Episcopal Church in Hamilton, Ontario two Lord's days ago. Both the Scripture readings were given by women. This is not just a PCA problem.



The REC is not confessionally bound by the RPW. They do not opperate from the same set of presuppositions as Presbyterians.


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## puriteen18 (Dec 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Saiph_
> I Cor. 11:5
> 
> "But every woman who *prays or prophesies* with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. "
> ...



Could this not be in the home? Women have spiritual authority over their children, right? So couldn't this be praying, instructing in prayer, catechizing, and otherwise teaching childen in the home?

The NT does seem pretty clear that women are to be silent in the church. And if we use the Scriptures as a commentary of itself, it would seem that this praying and prophesying must be taking place somewhere else.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by puriteen18]


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puriteen18_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Saiph_
> ...



I am bumping this thread because my wife and I are currently investigating this issue.

Saiph made a very good point regarding woman praying and prophesying in the church according to 1 Corinthians 11. 

Are women still to do this today or CAN they still do this?

Was Paul referring to their role outside of church?

Did this end with the ending of the apostolic era gifts, such as prophecy?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 17, 2005)

Yes, that ended. One has to demonstrate that non-cesationism is true, and that usually winds up in being tied up in a knot. The issue is not women prophesying, the issue is whether the gifts have ceased in this regard or not. If they have, then that aspect of women prophesying is not going to be applicable to the Regulative Principle concernig how the church functions at this time - post-apostolic gifts.

These two may be of help:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Pastoral/DabneyRLWomenPreaching.htm
The Public Preaching of Women
by R.L. Dabney

and

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Pastoral/WarfieldBBWomenSpeaking.htm
Paul on Women Speaking in the Church
by Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield


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## Saiph (Oct 17, 2005)

> Yes, that ended. One has to demonstrate that non-cesationism is true, and that usually winds up in being tied up in a knot. The issue is not women prophesying, the issue is whether the gifts have ceased in this regard or not. If they have, then that aspect of women prophesying is not going to be applicable to the Regulative Principle concernig how the church functions at this time - post-apostolic gifts.



So, if prophesying is and apostolic gift, and has ceased, why does Paul add "praying". Was that an Apostolic gift as well ? Matt, That argument does not gel. Paul's statement stands whether the apostolic gifts have ceased or not. There is no excercise of authority in praying, or reading the scriptures.


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