# Christian Goth???



## LadyFlynt

I've been talking with a "christian goth" kid in a chat room and am curious as to how to approach her with how the two don't mix. But it all comes to appearances and I don't have much insight to the "goth subculture"...HELP, you college kids!


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## openairboy

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I've been talking with a "christian goth" kid in a chat room and am curious as to how to approach her with how the two don't mix. But it all comes to appearances and I don't have much insight to the "goth subculture"...HELP, you college kids!



I have no input on "goth", but get her to read Lauren Winner's book (Real Sex). This, I believe, will be a valuable tool, because Lauren is willing to discuss issues of modesty and dress as part of the Christian tradition & story line without coming across as a frumpy lady. She easily moves from discussing how dress tells a story, how it relates to Sunday mornings, and your daily activities.

So, with the Goth, you have to peel away the layers of semi-gnosticism that suggests that 'dress' doesn't matter. What really matters is the heart! That clothing isn't really spiritual. Liturgy, clothing, and routine are spiritual activities and scarring, piercing, and tattooing matter to the Lord. The difficulty, however, is that Scripture, at least in the NC, doesn't prescribe specific 'how to's' per se, so it is important to glean wisdom from the Scriptures, tradition, and community.

openairboy


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## LadyFlynt

The funny thing is...she wears only skirts...at least two inches below the knees...lol. Gotta go beyond this.


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## LadyFlynt

Well, there is true gothic and then "goth". If one is an appearance of the (more volatile) other...should one really emulate that?


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## LadyFlynt

BTW, I see this as different than learning martial arts for protective or military measures and rejecting the religious side. This to me is more of putting on the appearance of evil.


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## Solo Christo

Colleen,

9 out of 10 times the whole goth thing turns out to just be a phase. At face value, it is an expression with the hope of disassociating oneself from the norm. No gothic girl has to worry about being connected with the current model on the cover of Teen Magazine or be mistaken for a Britney Spears fan or whoever. So, in a funny way they try to conform no longer to the image of the world. The problem is that their expression in doing so lies in a shallow pool of vanity, and yes, it assumes (at the very least) a _superficial_ appearance of evil of which Paul warns us about (1 Thes 5:22).

As for the solution, for the most part it comes with simple maturity. The Christian faith really represents the complete fulfillness of everything the goth needs. At its core, our faith has a very somber and meloncholy truth: that God himself was butchered on a cross for the sins of his people. We are asked to forsake the world and believe in the truth and power of our Saviour. Once the goth realizes this in all of its tremendous gravity, they should understand that there is so much more to their longing than dressing in black and wearing excess eyeliner.


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## LadyFlynt

the coming with maturity part I figured...just trying to engage her in a thinking conversation on it.


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## LadyFlynt

Paul, which part?


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## openairboy

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> Most Goths don't dress immodest, weird maybe, but not really immodest. Usually they wear balck clothing with more of a pale hue as their skin tone.



I guess I see lip, eyebrow, cheek piercings, giant holes in the ear, tattoos, crazy hair cuts, dog colors and the rest as immodest. The same would go for Paul and Jane Crouch and all things that are bling, blingin' it. 

Maybe we can work on a definition of modesty... 

openairboy

[Edited on 5-28-2005 by openairboy]


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## RamistThomist

> Maybe she's into Gothic things like someone else is into country music and dresses like a cowboy, or something.



Wonders what he's getting at:bigsmile:


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## ReformedWretch

I have almost always been able to establish strong relationships with Goth kids. They feel misunderstood, but rather than conform to be understood or accepted they are going to go to extremes the other way.

What I think they are doing is making you prove you care about them. They tend to be very pessimistic and untrusting of the "system". I've discovered that once they believe that you honestly don't care what they look like, they start to come out of it.

I love goth kids because I have no problem showing them that I don't care what they look like. They are always amazed at the man who accepts them as they are. I've bonded with literally dozens of them and have seen most of them move farther and farther away from the goth look.


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## LadyFlynt

I have no problem with acceptin them at face value...but was just curious and thought there was a conflict with the Goth culture and Chrisitianity...in some ways still do...but putting it into words.

(BTW into country myself...teeeheee)


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## openairboy

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> Well then I'm immodest!  ... except for the piercings.
> 
> Anyway, most don't have big holes in their ears, that's the hippie kids who want to stretch their ears to be like African tribsmen. So, get your phases straight!



Oh no, you wear a dog collar? I just hope it's not superglued on.


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## openairboy

I've suddenly turned into a crazed youth pastor. Whatever happened to those great videos in the 80's that linked every rock band with the Devil? I'll never forget the Beastie Boys "License to Ill" album cover, b/c they concluded that the crashed plane was actually a joint. Are those still around? We need an updated version, but links all things goth.

Anyway, goth.net is a resource into the sub-culture. And, well, it is dark. Another interesting place, at least for a couple of quotes, is over at religioustolerance.org. Just throw goth into google and out pops these sites.

I see goth kids every morning, and they are, without getting to Frank Perreti on everyone, spiritually dark. In a way different than your average person. It's kind of like the Mormons. I am always weirded out by those cats a little more than my atheist neighbor.

openairboy

[Edited on 5-28-2005 by openairboy]


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## LadyFlynt

Paul, that's it. Trying to reach goths by being goth. But isn't that using the world's tactics? Also i think there is a rebellion (distrust as adam said) of most ppl. She sees smiles as fake.


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## ReformedWretch

> She sees smiles as fake.



EXACTLY!

You have to prove yourselves to goth kids, I kind of enjoy that challange.


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## LadyFlynt

I do too, Adam. It was an interesting conversation with her. I think I'm learning some things. Or rather relearning. I'm used to this with hubby's street ministry...but I guess it took me off guard with a normal kid...lol.


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## turmeric

They remind me of the existentialists of the '60's, only lots more drama.. Take Adam's advice, just be cool. Engage her about Christ; she'll have to confront the "gothic" obsession with death eventually if it's more than just drama to her, but the Holy Spirit can and will clean that up. I used to be a hippie, I can assure you that's true.


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## Craig

Dittos to Paul and Adam...

Keep getting to know this goth kid. She's a teenager...there's nothing particularly rational about her decisions right now  

I went through a phase where I started dressing a bit different...it was good at the time. I was establishing who I was as I was in college and establishing my own identity apart from my parents and older brother. Goth dress is one part of many things she's thinking/experiencing. Right thinking and believing are more important, and will prove goth dressing is just a phase (note: I don't necessarily think it's intrinsically evil...it's an interesting contrast to the plastic smiles of evangelicals)


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## turmeric

My unregernerate friend from work thinks evangelicals are Stepford Wives!


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## Texas Aggie

I would not waste your time unless you really feel called to interact. Don't cast pearls before swine. Outward appearance is only a manifestation of what is working on the inside.

Immodesty is not really the issue with the typical gothic... they cover quite nicely. The weirdness and obsession with the occult are key. Many engage in drug use for psychedelic pleasure (they feel close to the reality of death) and disrespect for their own bodies is a major issue. Sexual weirdness is also a fancy for them (they always look towards the extreme in many if not every area of their lives).

I have known and worked with gothic people on numerous occasions. Their path leads to destruction... it's a spiritual stronghold and takes the workings of the Holy Spirit as well as the individual to overcome. Most despise Christians... I would question the sincerity of a "Gothic Christian." I am not saying gothic people can not become Christians.... the Spirit will clean-up this mess. Again, an individual´s outward appearance is a manifestation of what´s inside (yes, this is discerning the content of a book by it´s cover). Good luck in your endeavor.


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## ReformedWretch

> I would not waste your time unless you really feel called to interact. Don't cast pearls before swine. Outward appearance is only a manifestation of what is working on the inside.



*OUCH!* I know many former "goth" kids that would have been so much the worse if I had taken that approach.



> Immodesty is not really the issue with the typical gothic... they cover quite nicely. The weirdness and obsession with the occult are key. Many engage in drug use for psychedelic pleasure (they feel close to the reality of death) and disrespect for their own bodies is a major issue. Sexual weirdness is also a fancy for them (they always look towards the extreme in many if not every area of their lives).



That's like saying all Calvinists don't believe in evangelism.



> I have known and worked with gothic people on numerous occasions. Their path leads to destruction... it's a spiritual stronghold and takes the workings of the Holy Spirit as well as the individual to overcome. Most despise Christians



I have not found that to be true at all. Most despise *fake people* which sadly, many Christian are these days. If you are a Christian witnessing to a goth person, you had better be the real deal. Truthfully, real Christians are persecuted and this actually gains some goth's respect. Standing up for the Lord to the point of being a weirdo will often make goth kids believe you are for real.



> I would question the sincerity of a "Gothic Christian." I am not saying gothic people can not become Christians.... the Spirit will clean-up this mess. Again, an individual´s outward appearance is a manifestation of what´s inside (yes, this is discerning the content of a book by it´s cover). Good luck in your endeavor.



Wow, I am afraid you would see me as not being a real Christian. I dye my hair and beard black, I like to wear black (For no other reason than I like how I look in it), I wear motor cycle boots, and sleevles shirts quite often (As Larry the Cable guy says, that's in the Constitution after all! Right there in it we read "you have the right to bare arms"). Thankfully I have been accepted by my church as the real deal. If they thought like you I may have been completely disgusted with the one reformed church in our area.


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## Arch2k

*Not to get off topic, but I think looking at this verse might be helpful*



> _Originally posted by Solo Christo_
> The problem is that their expression in doing so lies in a shallow pool of vanity, and yes, it assumes (at the very least) a _superficial_ appearance of evil of which Paul warns us about (1 Thes 5:22).



The only thing I would like to comment on is the verse in 1 Thess 5:22 about abstaining from the "appearance of evil." I have heard this verse (or at least the thrust of it) used several times throughout this thread, and to be honest, this is one verse where the KJV does a dis-service.

In context, the verse should read "Abstain from every form of evil" NOT "appearance." 

Jamison Fausset Brown Commentary on 1 Thess. 5:22


> Tittmann supports English Version, "œfrom every evil appearance" or "œsemblance." The context, however, does not refer to evil appearances IN OURSELVES which we ought to abstain from, but to holding ourselves aloof from every evil appearance IN OTHERS; as for instance, in the pretenders to spirit-inspired prophesyings. In many cases the Christian should not abstain from what has the semblance ("œappearance") of evil, though really good. Jesus healed on the sabbath, and ate with publicans and sinners, acts which wore the appearance of evil, but which were not to be abstained from on that account, being really good. I agree with Tittmann rather than with Bengel, whom Alford follows. The context favors this sense: However specious be the form or outward appearance of such would-be prophets and their prophesyings, hold yourselves aloof from every such form when it is evil, literally, "œHold yourselves aloof from every evil appearance" or "œform."



From Vincent's Word Studies (on this passage):



> Appearance (ÎµÎ¹Ì“ÌÎ´Î¿Ï…Ï‚)
> As commonly explained, abstain from everything that even looks like evil. But the word signifies form or kind. Comp. Luk_3:22; Joh_5:37, and see nearly the same phrase in Joseph. Ant. 10:3, 1. It never has the sense of semblance. Moreover, it is impossible to abstain from everything that looks like evil.



From the Pulpit Commentary:



> Ver. 22. "” Abstain from all appearance of evil . This verse is connected with the last, and states negatively what is there stated positively. Test the declarations of the prophets; retain the good, and reject the evil. The word translated "œappearance" has been differently rendered; it denotes form, figure, species, kind; so that the clause is to be rendered, "œAbstain from all form of evil" (R.V.), or, "œof the evil," the word being an abstract substantive. The whole exhortation is similar to that given in <451209>Romans 12:9, only there the negative statement is put first: "œAbhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good."



William Hendricksen and Simon J Kistemaker:



> Once a true verdict has been reached, the practical rule must apply: "œto the good
> hold on (ÎºÎ±Ï„Î­Ï‡ÎµÏ„Îµ); from every form (or kind, not appearance here) of evil hold off
> (á¼€Ï€Î­Ï‡ÎµÏƒÎ¸Îµ). Note: every form, whether the wicked and uninspired utterance concerns
> doctrine or life. It is probable that this every is even broader, to be taken absolutely.


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## Texas Aggie

Adam,

I see the "real deal" as obedience to the law of God... this witness speaks volumes and you do not even need to open your mouth. I agree with you that gothics despise fake people, but they also despise God's law.

As for the calvinist/evangalism comment, .... I said "many" not all. Obviously not all gothics engage in such acts.

Motorcycle boots & sleeveless shirts do not constitute interest in the occult. Some people also look stellar in black (I personally love black). We both know the characteristics of the gothic underworld and I doubt you would want your daughters involved with such a crowd.

Parents can only discern the moral state of their children's friends based on their outward appearance and what flows out of their mouths. Man can only see the outside of the cup. It is our responsibility to teach our children to guard their gates and prevent all sorts of garbage from entering the temple of God (it all starts with just a little interest). The Holy Spirit can not work contrary to the law of God but an individual's will can suppress the action.

As for your appearance, I am not your judge. Your dress and appearance is between you and God (I have no idea how near you are to him). Looking at your picture, you do not appear to have a gothic look; therefore, I would probably discern you are not of that mind-set or under such influence.

As far as your outreach to gothic kids who would have been "worse off" without your witness is a separate issue concerning gifts provided to the church by God. You may have been bestowed with such a gift to reach to the elect who are living in this type of sub-culture. I do not have such a gift.

Many gothics (and those who dress contrary to the norm) do care very much about what people think... they have a very high degree of vanity and haughtiness. It's the norm and the geeks who wear pocket protectors who really don't care what the rest of the world thinks (these people are more nonconformists).


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## ReformedWretch

> I agree with you that gothics despise fake people, but they also despise God's law.



Not all of them! In fact, reformed Christians could reach "goths" much better than Evangelicals. What Gots see in Christianity most times is not "God's law" but mans. They see Christians who live as they please, but tell them that they can't because they haven't "accepted Jesus". To Goths, this is idiotic. Some will even say a little prayer with an evangelical to "get them off my case".

The goth kids I have worked with and loved appreciated my stance and refusal to back down from it even it cost me relationships, comfortability, etc. Even when they chose not to believe, they respected "real" Christianity. SO few have shown them that.

I have a diary that one of my gothic girls gave me when she graduated high school. It is very enlightening.


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## openairboy

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> above you spelled it as "color." I was like, "What's a dog color? Oh well, I've always wanted people to tell me I dress in dog colors, so I'll admit this." Now, I don't do the collar thing. But if I did, I would pierce it on!



BLAST! I wish I could blame some sort of textual variance, but, alas, it is poor/thoughtless typing. I can only imagine readers wondering what sort of goth kids I have met. To my knowledge, none of them or possibly all of them are into dog colors. That evil dalmation look that the kids are going for has to be nipped before it spreads to our youth. Our culture is truly going to hell in a handbasket with this new dog color look.

openairboy


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## Texas Aggie

Adam,

I have no doubt that Christians could reach Goths... providing God has given them an ear to hear and eyes to see (otherwise, there is absolutely no interest). The love for God's law comes from God himself under the terms of the New Covenant. The law and Spirit are given so that our will is now conformed to the will of God. Interest in the occult is not something His Spirit would encourage and Goth as a fashion choice portrays a message of rebellion as well as an identity to this sub-culture.

Self-proclaimed Christians who live a life as they please portray a false witness (which can be extremely detrimental). I'm with the Goths on this one (I believe this is idiotic also).

My perspective: we are incapable of choosing to believe. We will not and we can not come to know God unless he shows us His covenant. Once this occurs, then the individual may begin to draw near to God. God has provided His law and His Spirit that we may walk according to His will. God has an infinite number of ways to reveal Himself to the elect.

Evangelism is a gift from God that not everyone has (the Goth arena would be extremely difficult). Obedience to His law is something that everyone will notice... they will either hate you or want what you got (a type of peace). If one does not see God's law in a Christian then they are probably not looking at a Christian. 

I would agree with you that reformed believers over evangelicals could reach Goths better. Reformed Christians understand the role of God's law and an individual's will as it relates to sanctification. Most evangelicals believe all one needs is a mere belief in Christ. After all... the devils believe.


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## MICWARFIELD

I know many "Christian Goths". Those with whom I am aquainted bear much Christian fruit, are intellectual, and spend much of their time sharing their faith with the lost.

I think that perhaps with some Christians, it's not so much a matter of holiness as it is a matter of feeling uncomfortable with the way goths look. I'm sure that the Pharisees were quite uncomfortable with John the Baptist and his attire as well (not the perfect analogy, I know).

My friends are living Godly lives and are sharing gospel truth with the unregenerate. They seem to treasure God above all else. I believe that our Lord is pleased with them. I feel no need to ask them to change their shirt. That might make some happy, but I doubt God would be impressed.

What does a Christian really look like? I know that we are supposed to avoid all appearance of evil, and to not be conformed to this world.
Am I allowed to wear Nike shoes, or should I chuck them out because some gangsta rappers wear them. Are Raiders shirts acceptable?

I know a local Reformed congregation where the members dress exactly like many crooked politicians and businessmen. They have the same shortly trimmed haircuts and expensive suits. Is that the appearance of evil? Or does the whole appearance of evil thing only apply to styles that we arent comfortable with?

I had the misfortune of meeting a very corrupt and utterly depraved man a few years ago. He goes by the name Max Hardcore. DONT LOOK HIM UP!! He is a pornographer and is very sick. Part of his image is that he dresses like a cowboy - hat, jeans, boots, and all. This man is the epitome of evil humanly speaking. Perhaps I should rebuke all my christian friends who dress exactly like Max Hardcore (I live in a cowboy part of San Diego).

So now, black clothes, business suits, and country attire are out. What am I left with? Cheesy WWJD shirts? None of this has anything to do with true holiness. We are called to glorify God and be soul winners not clothing inspectors. Obviously, if a professing christian is wearing a stripclub shirt or something of that nature theres a serious problem.

Mike


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## RamistThomist

> Evangelism is a gift from God that not everyone has


Let's not confuse not having the gift with not having the responsibility. I don't think you are suggesting that.

Let's start our own Christian Goth thing. Remember the real Goths in the 400's and 500's? That's what I am talking about!


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## Texas Aggie

Responsibility of the Christian lies with obedience to the law. This is the best witness one could possibly portray. Man looks on the outside and will see the workings of God within the Christian. You don't even need to open your mouth... unbelievers will either hate you or want what you have.

The body of Christ has been given certain gifts... not all are apostles or prophets or teachers or workers of miracles. He didn't make everyone with the same gifts. He did make quite a few husbands, fathers, wives and mothers. This is a tremendous responsibility that many people need to take heed to before worrying about the rest of the world (not to mention taking heed to themselves first).

As far as the great commission, I see twice as much teaching as I do baptizing in Matthew 28:19-20. We have a tendency of getting people baptized then sending them out to zealously evangelize, or even worse... become Sunday school teachers. These same newfound Christians suffer from a lack of discipleship from the church and gain very little Spiritual maturity on their own accord because they squelch the Spirit within. Backsliding is a common result, living a life of willful sin and portraying a false witness. Now we are right back in Hosea 4:6.

There is already great confusion concerning a gift of evangelism verses responsibility. We must provide an answer and defend the faith. Obedience to the law will have you answering and defending the faith on a daily basis without you even asking one person if they know Jesus Christ. In addition, God has an infinite number of ways to reach His elect. He may use a jackass or a burning bush... or he may even use you without your knowledge or consent.

As far as the Goth fashion, it's more than a shirt, a pair of shoes or a hairstyle. Wake up. They deliberately intend to identify themselves with this sub-culture. It is a culture of darkness. You may need to take a look and see where this sub-culture places their values, their identity and their beliefs.

As far as "Christian" Goths, they are still addicted to their lifestyle. A "Christian" Goth displays an outward appearance of darkness, death and open rebellion. There is no outward manifestation of God indwelling inside nor is there an outward appearance of obedience to His law. What communion hath light with darkness? Take a look at 2 Corinthians 6:14-15. Goth fashion sends a message... do you want your children to portray that message?

There is a difference between dressing like a cowboy and dressing gothic... you know that Mike. Don't try and split hairs on this issue. You know very well what goth attire portrays.


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## RamistThomist

It can go either way at this point. Is the "Christian" goth no less sincere than the "bubblegum" evangelical? This is coming from someone who has very little sympathy for either, but after being annoyed by bubblegum evangelicals for the last few years, I am not as alarmed by CGs anymore.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> Most Goths don't dress immodest, weird maybe, but not really immodest. Usually they wear balck clothing with more of a pale hue as their skin tone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I see lip, eyebrow, cheek piercings, giant holes in the ear, tattoos, crazy hair cuts, dog colors and the rest as immodest.
> 
> Maybe we can work on a definition of modesty...
> 
> 
> openairboy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then I'm immodest!  ... except for the piercings.
> 
> Anyway, most don't have big holes in their ears, that's the hippie kids who want to stretch their ears to be like African tribsmen. So, get your phases straight!
Click to expand...


I'm immodest too 



I'm not gothic by anymeans though yuuuuck



[Edited on 5-29-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> It can go either way at this point. Is the "Christian" goth no less sincere than the "bubblegum" evangelical? This is coming from someone who has very little sympathy for either, but after being annoyed by bubblegum evangelicals for the last few years, I am not as alarmed by CGs anymore.



What I am saying is that the "Stepford" picture of Evangelical women (excluding the Reformed) isn't that much more an improvement than "Christian" Goth.


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## Craig

Dressing "goth", as has been already stated is simply one of the effects of a person's heart: it's not necessarily occultic. I can be any number of things, including hatred of one's self to distrust of society to simply finding a group to belong to.

I agree that much of the time it is simply vanity...but that doesn't mean they are the swine you avoid casting your pearls before. This girl is basically a child...she needs direction. She has chosen a subculture to be a part of and probably feels she has found...this is what is truly troubling, that her identity hasn't been discovered within the household of God. It isn't the dark clothes or make up that concern me, it's subcultures that concern me. Goth is just one of many subcultures and it is saddening that so many Christian's feel they need to buy into them (which is exactly what they do: they find, and then purchase their identity).

Children who dress in goth may also have some sort of a difficult past, which is why they find goth as a viable expression...the point is, the occult is not the primary reason, especially for kids, to become goth. It's really a dying fashion anyway. Perhaps these people are looking up Gothic in their history books and realized it was typified by bright colors and sunlight being integrated into the archetecture of churches...really, these kids are Romanesque


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## RamistThomist

say it a different way,
what is worse: the vanity that 99% of american teenage girls spend before a mirror for five hours every morning,

or

the misunderstood teenage who dresses in black and looks odd on purpose? Sure, some might be in the occult and that is a different problem to be addressed.

BTW, I am as impartial on this as one can get. I believe the only valid fashion style to be "country wear."


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## Texas Aggie

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine. Dress and appearance is an outward manifestation of the type of spirit working within. If you dress wanting to portray an image of rebellion, defiance, haughtiness, vanity, death, whatever... you may need to check what spirits are working within you (it is not God's Spirit).

I would be concerned with the way professing "Christians" dress because it is one of only two ways you can discern what spiritual state they are in. What comes out of the mouth is one indication (Matthew 12:34, Matthew 15:18-19). The other is their outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). God looks at the heart, you can not see it. All you have is the physical realm. A person's outward appearance is only a manifestation of their heart.

Unfortunately, the church rarely follows through with two of its main objectives, discipleship and teaching. It is amazing what trash is allowed to remain in the congregations (probably for profitable business). Take a look around and see what a lack of teaching causes... questionable dress for women, messy, sloppy, dirty grunge look, Goth, effeminate behavior in high school boys, you name it. If it looks like a duck... it´s probably a duck.

Dressing Goth may not be "necessarily occultic;" however, it is a gate in which an individual allows unholy influence (which was probably already there before the dress). The identity and lifestyle can lead one to the occult. The "number of things" associated with such fashion are spiritual. Hatred of oneself, distrust of society, anti-authoritarian, abuse, whatever you can conjure for examples (the devil has plenty). Finding a group to belong to is key... identity and acceptance from the world are excellent tempters (attracting mainly our youth).

Anything that is unholy and has the appearance of being unholy is not for the Christian. The sub-culture of darkness is unholy and a dangerous battlefield... no different from other spiritual strongholds (homosexuality, idolatry, child abuse, pedophilia,... the list goes on). Evangelism within such realms is truly a gift.

As far as direction for this child.... who's going to give it? You? Where are her parents? They may be part of the problem... may be Goth parents, may engage in drug use or child abuse. Either way, this is a spiritual matter. Only God can save... you can not.

You can give an answer and defend the faith. You can live a life obedient to the law of God, showing the world as witness for Him. A "œGothic" Christian is no different from a "œHomosexual" Christian.... it as if a dog returns to their own vomit.


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## RamistThomist

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine. Dress and appearance is an outward manifestation of the type of spirit working within. If you dress wanting to portray an image of rebellion, defiance, haughtiness, vanity, death, whatever... you may need to check what spirits are working within you (it is not God's Spirit).
> 
> I would be concerned with the way professing "Christians" dress because it is one of only two ways you can discern what spiritual state they are in. What comes out of the mouth is one indication (Matthew 12:34, Matthew 15:18-19). The other is their outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). God looks at the heart, you can not see it. All you have is the physical realm. A person's outward appearance is only a manifestation of their heart.



By this same reasoning I can indict 99% of Evangelical women at church on Sunday morning. I am not gothic (well, in the 400AD sense I sort of am), but don't see it worse than the vanity mentioned in my above posts.


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## Texas Aggie

I have not paid much attention to the evangelical women at churches lately. I have been to southern Baptist churches in the early 90s and seen many young ladies wearing very revealing clothing. I would imagine it has only gotten worse (I don´t know). Shame on the elder women in the congregation. Shame on their mothers and shame on the fathers. This is a prime example of Hosea 4:6.


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## Puritan Sailor

Why not use their obsession with death as a door to evangelism? Simply ask them, "With all your interest in death, what have you done to prepare yourself for it? How will you face God?"


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## Texas Aggie

Josh,

I am under the impression that fire can in fact lead to destruction (Chicago 1871). Good analogy... but slightly different. You don't even need to establish that a fashion of itself is evil... all you need to know is the origin of the fashion and what it represents. In this case, Goth fashion represents something.

Not sure about the whole musical note thing. 

Dress can lead to the occult based on identity to the occult alone. For example, I will assume that your daughter is in the picture provided on this post. When she becomes of high school age and wanting to seek her place amongst her piers, she may be attracted to such a fashion and group of friends (providing you allow it). This seems subtle on the outside, but over time her friends may begin to delve a little deeper in the matter since they want to portray such an image. Not sure where the venture will lead.... maybe nowhere, or maybe deeper into this sub-culture. 

A Christian, who is under the New Covenant, has the Spirit of God within. This Spirit can not and will not act contrary to the law of God. There is no concord between light and darkness. A Christian who wishes to portray an image of darkness (fashion of the occult) is not representing the Holy Spirit within. As a result, the world sees wickedness as opposed to light. If the gothic child is a proclaiming Christian.... this is a false witness.


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## RamistThomist

Matt,
You keep assuming Goth = occult.
This is not a necessary conclusion. Sure, some Goths could be occultic, but that has nothing to do with the system as a whole.


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## Texas Aggie

The burden of proof is not on me Josh. Clothing items are a-moral. They have no morality (just like a gun or a bottle of gin). The individual has the morality.

I don't need to prove that certain clothing, arranged in certain fashions are inherently evil.... because they are not. A black shirt is not evil. Black eyeliner is not evil. A tounge ring is not evil, neither are genital rings for that matter. Narcotics are not evil. 

Again, its not the clothing itself that is evil. I am only discerning the spirit working within because all I can see is the outside of the cup. 

You mention your parental and fatherly spiritural oversight. What does the Spirit within you tell you about such a fashion?


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## Texas Aggie

Jacob,

I am not assuming Goth=occult. 

I am saying this is a dangerous road to take. Goth may or may not lead to the occult... but it is one step closer to the sub-culture than fleeing from the occult.

Goth + Temptation + Individual Will + Unholy Influence = Occult

The mere fact that one would dress Goth tells the world that "I identify myself with this group."


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## Texas Aggie

Josh,
That does not answer the question. 

What does the Holy Spirit dwelling within you say about allowing your daughter to dress in such a fashion?


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## Texas Aggie

Josh,
Please. Matter of taste? Come on. What if she had a taste for it? Since it is apparently not a moral issue for you... I will assume you will allow the fashion if she has a desire for it.

Under the New Covenant we have the law and the Spirit. Don't forget we also have the law written in our heart and in our mind.


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## Texas Aggie

If the devil can get you to love the fashion... Great! One step closer to the occult. Good Luck Josh.


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## Texas Aggie

Ok,

Since you will not answer my question concerning your daughters future fashion choice with a yes or no, I will ask another.

What is the law written in your heart and in your mind?


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## Texas Aggie

Fair enough. Good night Josh.


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## MICWARFIELD

Texas Aggie said

"We have a tendency of getting people baptized then sending them out to zealously evangelize, or even worse... become Sunday school teachers. These same newfound Christians suffer from a lack of discipleship from the church and gain very little Spiritual maturity on their own accord because they squelch the Spirit within. Backsliding is a common result, living a life of willful sin and portraying a false witness."

I completely agree Matt. I've seen it firsthand. Many churches in their zealousness to "win souls" will carelessly put a very young believer lacking spiritual depth and accurate theological knowledge, in a position of leadership such as Bible study teacher. I've even seen such Christians put in counseling positions. These situations almost always resulted in others receiving very unbiblical teaching, and very dangerous counsel.

This is the case with young Christians from all walks of life. I know some goth type people who are very young in the Lord and I also know some who are seasoned and mature in their faith. One friend of mine is a pastor. He devotes much of his time to reaching out to these people; people that some of my stuffy, reformed brethren from up the street wouldn't give the time of day to.

The bottom line is that only God gets to define sin. Do you really think that you can confidently discern the condition of someones heart by their gothic attire? I'm sure the Pharisees would agree wholeheartedly! They trusted that the people would see their holy robes as a reflection of their inner man. Of course, many did.

Once again, I'm not saying that Christians can wear EVERYTHING without restriction. A t-shirt that says "Lets all commit adultery" would be an example of something unacceptable. If a professing brother were wearing such a shirt, It would certainly be legitimate to call him into question, as he would be advocating sin.

Mike


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## Texas Aggie

Mike,

I am not the judge of people... God takes care of this. God has defined sin and has given it to us via His law (we have it). Under the New Covenant, we now have His law and His Spirit within us that we may be directed according to His will. His will for us is nothing more than obedience to His law. The Spirit can not and will not lead you into anything contrary to His nature which is absolute holiness. You do have a will to go the other direction.

Under the New Covenant, our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees. In addition, the Spirit within provides the believer a means for discerning spiritual truth (a provision provided to His elect under the terms of the Covenant). Take a look at 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The idea of discernment is that of "examination" not judgment. We examine all aspects of our life as Christians. We examine ourselves, our children, our relatives and so on. The church needs to examine itself sometimes.

Not only can Christians spiritually examine the state of themselves and those around them, but some are given the gift of discerning actual spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10). Discerning spirits amongst us, in others, in geographic areas, etc. If you have a topical bible, take a look at all the spirits that are listed (diverse, perversion, haughtiness, drunkenness, lasciviousness, deceitful, lying... the list is quite extensive).

The author of Hebrews is getting on to people in chapter 5 and 6 concerning their lack of knowledge. At a time when we ought to be teachers, we have become such that we need milk and not strong meat (Chapter 5:11-14). Knowledge of holiness has gone down the toilet for many. Knowledgeable Christians, those who can digest the meat and have moved on, leaving the basic principles, not laying again the foundation have by reason the ability to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).

So, to answer your question... yes. I can and most Christians can discern what manner of spirit is working on an individual based on two things:

1. What flows from their mouth.
2. Personal appearance (the outside of the cup).

This is all man has been provided to discern one's heart. Although you can not know for certain (because only God can see the heart), you have the ability to discern good and evil, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness.

This concept does not only apply to Goth, but is used everyday all around us. It's spiritual warfare. If the devils can get you to desire a fashion of darkness... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God. Take another example. If the devils can get you to watch p0rnography (hetero, bisexual or homosexual), you are one step closer to separating yourself from God. These are your gates (your senses) which you have a responsibility to guard against all things that are unholy.

Again, I am not the judge. All I can see is the outside of the cup. If it looks like a duck... it´s probably a duck. I am not sure why a "Christian" would want to identify with a sub-culture of darkness (whether it leads to the occult or not). Again the Spirit will not lead a believer into anything but absolute holiness. There is no communion between light and darkness. Goth fashion portrays an identity to a sub-culture of darkness (this is what the world sees). Christian Goth is a false witness.


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## RamistThomist

> 2. Personal appearance (the outside of the cup).


You're argument hangs on this premise and as of yet, you have not made the connection. Your argument is some form of the genetic fallacy (i.e., a proposition is supported or discredited on the basis of its origin).


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## Puritan Sailor

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> Why not use their obsession with death as a door to evangelism? Simply ask them, "With all your interest in death, what have you done to prepare yourself for it? How will you face God?"



Perhaps my post got passed over due to the clothing debate. But perhaps discussion along the lines of evangelism would be more productive? I resubmit my post to that end


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## Texas Aggie

The connection is the outward manifestation itself. The outside shows what is working inside.

Old Covenant=working outward in.
New Covenant=working inward out.

The Spirit and the law have been given to the believer so that we may draw near to God. He has made this provision for us. The Spirit will not lead you down this path of darkness unless you allow it. The world only sees the outside of man; we can not see the heart. Gothic dress and appearance promotes an identity to this sub-culture.... a sub-culture of darkness which can lead to the occult. 

Why would the Spirit, who is absolutely holy, want you to identify with such a group?


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## turmeric

Since sanctification is progressive, i.e. it takes time, a person can be a goth & a Christian, for how long they can do it, don't know.

I am a little uncomfortable with all this talk of devils, since when I was growing up this is how the extreme perfectionists explained their continued indwelling sin. THEY weren't sinful, some devil was getting them to want to do X. These teachings came into our denomination (Assemblies of God) through Jessie Penn-Lewis, who was a leading light of the Keswick Convention in the early part of last century.


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## RamistThomist

> The Spirit will not lead you down this *path of darkness* unless you allow it.



That it is a path of darkness remains to be proven.


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## MICWARFIELD

Texas Aggie said 

"If the devils can get you to desire a fashion of darkness... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God."


And if the devil can get you to desire a spirit of legalism, binding mens consciences where the bible does not... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God.

I appreciate your many scripture quotations Matt, but not one proves your point that a christian who dresses goth is in disobedience to the law of God.

Mike


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## Jie-Huli

I am quite surpised by some of the views being expressed here. I do not see how anyone could disagree with the main points that Mr. Daniel has been making.

Mr. Daniel has been saying all along that the clothing alone is not sinful. It is the fact that someone would choose to adopt the garb of a subculture which revels in darkness and death which reveals a dangerous spiritual state.

I would agree that we cannot conclusively say that someone is not sincere in her faith based on her wearing "Goth" attire, especially in someone so young, since sanctification is indeed a process. But it certainly is a dangerous sign if someone puts a great deal of effort into dressing to align herself with a subculture which relishes rebellion, death and perversion rather than the Holy Scriptures. It is showing no love or charity to the individuals caught up in such a lifestyle to turn a blind eye to what is really going on, in the name of "not binding consciences where Scripture does not speak".

These people need the transforming power of the Gospel, and I believe we should be fervent in preaching to them.

But to take the approach that there is actually nothing wrong at all in identifying with the "Goth" culture is a grave mistake, and can do nothing but hurt the very individuals you think you are being so charitable towards.

The exact manner in which we speak with these people is another question (if I am not mistaken, that was the original question of the thread in fact), but the basic premise that the "Goth" subculture is not compatible with Christianity should not need debate. Neither should the premise that true Christians must not purposefully identify with such anti-Christian subcultures.

Blessings,

Jie-huli


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## RamistThomist

It is not exactly his position that many of us are disagreeing with, merely that his argumentation is bad. Using his arguments I could prove that country/wester wear is sinful (because country music has drinking in it), etc. Actually, I am against the gothic stuff because it is not representative of the celtic subculture of the agrarian movement as a whole (actually, I think I am on the only person that holds this position).

If Mr Daniels wants to help gothic people make a transer from darkness to light, he needs to use non-question begging arguments.


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## Texas Aggie

God is also a God of law Mike... and if you wish to throw that out, that's between you and God. Again, the clothing itself is not evil (as I have posted many times in this post). It only demonstrates an outward manifestation of what is working on the inside. If you look like a spider, you´re probably a spider.

Country wear does not portray an identity to a sub-culture which may lead to the occult. As a whole, most people will not label someone wearing this attire as a drunkard either. You´re splitting hairs Jacob.... and you know it.

A better analogy would be men wearing women's clothing in public and proclaiming to be Christian... what does one discern from that? The clothing itself is not evil. Mike would say they are free to wear whatever they wish under the New Covenant (don't want to be too legalistic). 

All I am saying is that Goth attire does not reflect the Holy Spirit within... it is also a false witness. If you believe you are "free" to dress as your desire prevails, you may need to take a closer look at the New Covenant and the provisions God has made for you to walk after His Spirit (which will lead you to nothing but absolute holiness).

Jie-huli stated:

"the basic premise that the "Goth" subculture is not compatible with Christianity should not need debate. Neither should the premise that true Christians must not purposefully identify with such anti-Christian subcultures." This is exactly my point. Why would the Holy Spirit lead you to identify yourself with such a sub-culture?... He wouldn't.

What specific question would you like me to address on this topic? My perspective may be completely different from yours... and that's OK. Again, I am not the judge of others.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus

I think this logic can be compared to the controversy of being "disrespectful" to God by not wearing a tie to church. Since when does the preference of the majority (i.e. culture) define and invent what sin is?
Did God give some authority to culture (i.e. the majorities preference) to do this?

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## Augusta

I believe that it was already established early on why "Goths" wear what they wear. They are rebelling against social norms. They want to shock people. They want to look different from the "normals." They also like to look half dead. 

All I have to do is look in the local school yard to see that clothing speaks volumes. You have your preps, jocks, punks, rockers, hicks, hip hops, goths, and geeks. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess what group they identify with. 

Each group has its undercurrents. YES, they all are individuals each different from from one another. BUT they want to fit in somewhere and so they dress like the group they either like or by other circumstances joined. 

You also have the prudes and the easy girls. Now you guys don't even try to tell me that you didn't know which girls would put out and which ones wouldn't in school. This was usually based on dress. You can tell alot about a woman by how she dresses. 

Of course reading people by their dress is not fool proof or mathematically precise. There are variances. Usually if someone doesn't mind dressing like a certain group it is because they either identify with them or don't mind at least being affiliated with them. Based on some of the themes of these various groups this can be a problem. A rebellious group I would be particularly careful of. I have three daughters and I don't want them to be identified with any group unless its the prudes. 

I personally, and maybe its just me, would not like to be affiliated with S&M types so I leave out the black leather collar and whips from my attire.






[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Augusta]


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## turmeric

Okay, okay, I'm gonna help the Texan out a little!

I happen to know that one of the early influences on Goth culture was a series of books by Anne Rice about fictional vampires, trying to humanize the myth. The end result was a cast of fictional characters who had their own late-night culture based on a depraved need for human blood which was often expressed in a quasi-sexual way, particularly when they "recruited" mortals and made them vampires. These were always good-looking stylish mortals. So there's a lot of camp in these books. I know because I read nearly all of them before becoming a Christian.

That being said, I'm not sure if every kid who dresses "goth" has read these books or is into this, but SOME definitely are, in the early days some actually believed they were vampires or becoming vampires and would suck blood from each other which is just unhygienic anyway. I"M NOT SAYING THEY ALL DO THIS! The ones who did, or maybe still do, (I've lost touch) were on psychedelic drugs which can make one very suggestible (yes, to the occult as well, believe me!)

I'm still uncomfortable with "devil-talk" for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post, but if I were to advise Lady Flint on this, I would ask her to check with this catechumen where she is with her beliefs about Satan, about Jesus being the only way to God, in other words, make sure she's an actual convert, if so, help her understand God's word about sexual morality among other things, and watch the Holy Spirit remove whatever He doesn't want in her life, in His time.


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## D Battjes

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> Note, no one is saying that *sometimes* when people/Christians dress Goth that it may be wrong. We're objecting to the ipso facto ruling out of *anyone* who dresses Goth as doing it because they're evil, etc., Someone needs to tie the argument together. It can't be: Some Goths are bad, therefore all Goths are bad.



I just think they are ugly. And leave it at that....:bigsmile:

Personally, I remember beign called to the Church by Sovereign grace, I entered my first day with a shirt and tie. I was so uncomfortable, but people liked it. THen I started to wear sandals and shorts and shirts. My hair was kinda long, and hemp attire around my neck.

I would walk around barefoot most of the time. The blue hairs and "snooty" religious condemned me as a hippie Jesus Freak.

SOme of my friends began to join us at church dressed the same way. Soon in the bulliten it was asked that al peoople must wear shoes and dress appropriately. We had new cushions and a new rug put in recently.

And Elder, who was "hippieish" also, came into the sanctuary one night, took the cushions off the pews, and rolled up the new rug, exposing the wooden floor, then wrote an announcement, "The cushions and rugs have been removed so those whom Christ has called that are being criticised for not wearing the correct "church clothes" will not ruin them,,...,.

The congregation went wild.

Hence, since that time, I refrain from tye dyes, but still remove my sandals!!!!!!

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by D Battjes]


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## Texas Aggie

Look, "œthe path of darkness" is a reality if one begins to embrace some of the ideals of the Goth culture (New Age, Shamanism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Gnosticism, Wicca, Neo-pagan traditions, whatever). These are the popular religions of the group, you can't deny this.

The dress itself has no morality... we have established that. It is the identity to the group which makes a statement.

Your choice to dress Goth will stereotype you into this sub-culture (does not matter what your intention is). Deliberately choosing this fashion will bring tremendous scrutiny because of the mere "œassociation." 

Don´t be blind to the fact that the rest of the world associates this group with Marilyn Manson, Columbine, the occult, whatever (just examples). Although, this may not be the case for all Goths, it is for many. Most people see it in this manner.

As a "œChristian" Goth, you may need to check your motives about your appearance. You would be drawing serious attention to yourself, not to Christ for the purpose of His glory. Jesus Christ set the perfect example for how a man lives on earth. He, in fact, blended into the masses... unrecognizable to His own people. 

In addition to drawing attention to yourself and away from God, you instantly align yourself with this sub-culture. Your appearance tells the world that you identify with this group.

The lifestyle and subsequent values of the Gothic culture fill a need for people. The black clothing and dark music reflect internal workings (most Goths will even admit this). Many come from dysfunctional families and painful childhoods and they easily identify with one another. Not all, but many are filled with depression, hatred, despair... they will make these a "œlifestyle" choice and equate it to art. Depression, hatred and despair are just a few examples of the spiritual influence over this stronghold.

Christians who identify themselves with this group portray a false witness for Christianity. The Spirit within will not direct a believer to portray a lifestyle, image, stereotype or "œartistic" venture relating to such a sub-culture. 

Believe what you wish.


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## Jie-Huli

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> As a "œChristian" Goth, you may need to check your motives about your appearance. You would be drawing serious attention to yourself, not to Christ for the purpose of His glory. Jesus Christ set the perfect example for how a man lives on earth. He, in fact, blended into the masses... unrecognizable to His own people.
> 
> In addition to drawing attention to yourself and away from God, you instantly align yourself with this sub-culture. Your appearance tells the world that you identify with this group.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> Christians who identify themselves with this group portray a false witness for Christianity. The Spirit within will not direct a believer to portray a lifestyle, image, stereotype or "œartistic" venture relating to such a sub-culture.



I agree completely.

How could anyone here disagree?

1. The "Goth" subculture is built on blatantly sinful and anti-Christian philosophies.
2. To desire to take the name "Goth", and to purposefully study and align oneself with the fashions of this group (not just accidentally dressing in a way somewhat similar to the group, i.e., wearing black clothing, but purposefully and with great attention coordinating oneself with an array of fashion markings distinct to the group) is surely to intentionally join oneself to and identify with this unholy movement.

As Mr. Daniel has said, it is the intent of the heart which is paramount. If someone is a true Christian, and repelled by the perversions and evils which are a fundamental part of the "Goth" movement, why in the world would the person desire to identify with them? From my understanding, Goths put a great deal of care into the way they look, so it is a very expressive thing. Why in the world would a Christian want to express what "Goth" garb expresses? Why in the world would a Christian desire to center their identity on something other than their place in Christ? Why would a Christian desire for so much attention to be distracted away from Christ?

"For what fellowship hath righteousness and unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? . . . Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." 2 Cor. 6:14, 17-18.

Quite frankly, I believe there is quite a lot of sophistry going on in this thread, at the expense of heartfelt discussion of how to help these people.

[Edited on 6-3-2005 by Jie-Huli]


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## Texas Aggie

Great perspective Jie-Huli. I know you understand what I am saying and I know you understand Hosea 4:6.

I find it interesting that none of the church leaders (many who post on this website) have not posted one word on this topic. Everyone who has made a comment on this post are members of various congregations.

I would definitely like to hear what "senior church leadership" has to say on this issue.

"œKeep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Proverbs 4:23).


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