# Unethical profit making of Christian record labels?????????



## Anton Bruckner (Jun 28, 2005)

My church Pastor had to purchase the rights to perform Christians songs from CCL, and when we have a street fair, it seems like he will have to purchase another license. Licensing to perform songs in church are dependent upon church size.

Isn't the above crossing the line. I mean how can a Christian record label, charge a congregation for using songs in worship?

I mean did David copy right the Psalms?

I can understand prohibition against bootlegging, I can even understand intellectual property, but I think a Christian Record Label and Musician has to rescind all rights to their songs, whenever their songs are used in a worship service to worship God, and for Evangelistic concerts.

[Edited on 6-28-2005 by Slippery]


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 28, 2005)

I've heard this is one of the big ways Bill Gaither made a lot of his money. I heard that he actually SUED a lot of churches for not paying him whenever they worshipped God with "He Touched Me", "The King is Coming", etc. Everyone finally got the message, and churches everywhere started ponying up hundreds of thousands of dollars to Bill.

My dad was riding in a car with Bill Gaither years back. Bill pointed at his house, and said, " 'He Touched Me' paid for that house."

He may have written some good songs. But give me a break! I seem to remember Scripture saying something against suing Christian brothers in court . . .

[Edited on 6-28-2005 by biblelighthouse]


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## crhoades (Jun 28, 2005)

An article by John Frame on this very issue:
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/PT.Frame.Copyright.Technology.html


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## Anton Bruckner (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> I've heard this is one of the big ways Bill Gaither made a lot of his money. I heard that he actually SUED a lot of churches for not paying him whenever they worshipped God with "He Touched Me", "The King is Coming", etc. Everyone finally got the message, and churches everywhere started ponying up hundreds of thousands of dollars to Bill.
> 
> My dad was riding in a car with Bill Gaither years back. Bill pointed at his house, and said, " 'He Touched Me' paid for that house."
> ...



Sorry to say, but people like Bill Gaither makes me sick. How can you sue a church for using a song to worship??????????? How can you sue fellow Christians for using your song to sing to God????????????? On the contrary, one should be thankful that God saw if fit to give his sorry behind talent enough to write a song, that God's children can use to worship Him.


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## smallbeans (Jun 28, 2005)

The worker is worthy of his wage. You don't have to use copyrighted music in your church - you could choose pre-1920s hymns, settings, harmonies, etc. But if you do want to use copyrighted music, then you need to license that music for the intended use and it shouldn't seem odd that people who make their living creating music should also have a say in who can perform or publish that music.


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> Sorry to say, but people like Bill Gaither makes me sick. How can you sue a church for using a song to worship??????????? How can you sue fellow Christians for using your song to sing to God????????????? On the contrary, *one should be thankful that God saw if fit to give his sorry behind talent enough to write a song*, that God's children can use to worship Him.


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## Arch2k (Jun 28, 2005)

Interesting article. I think Frame is right. 

What about copyrights on bible translations etc.? Do we have to pay to reproduce God's Word?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 28, 2005)

What Jonathan said. Sing the Psalms though.


> _Originally posted by smallbeans_
> The worker is worthy of his wage. You don't have to use copyrighted music in your church - you could choose pre-1920s hymns, settings, harmonies, etc. But if you do want to use copyrighted music, then you need to license that music for the intended use and it shouldn't seem odd that people who make their living creating music should also have a say in who can perform or publish that music.


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## kceaster (Jun 28, 2005)

Having had some contact with ol' Bill in the past, I can honestly say that he doesn't really have any talent. He somehow surrounds himself with people who do.

As far as stealing goes, Bill and Glo once wrote a song almost word for word from a gospel song of 100 years ago. They of course put it to different music, but the words were the same.

His most infamous moment, though, came during an interview he gave after his brother Danny's "untimely" death a few years ago. He said when he gets to heaven, God's got a lot of explaining to do.

Where is the smiley being struck by lightening?

I actually sat through an entire infomercial about his gospel song videos. He didn't mention Christ once. All he said was that people of faith the world over have grown to love the songs featured in the videos.

His business practices are even worse. Shall I continue?

Nah, I'll leave it at that. So much for the "King" of gospel music.

And, his house that "He Touched Me" bought is not all that great and I would venture that most of the people in Alexandria, IN loathe him.

In Christ,

KC


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## Arch2k (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by smallbeans_
> it shouldn't seem odd that people who make their living creating music should also have a say in who can perform or publish that music.



I disagree. I think to be consistent on this, one proves too much. Can one exchange copyrighted recipes? How about this thread?

That's it....nobody can quote this reply (except of course for a fee) as I herby copyright it. smallbeans did not copyright his, so I have every right to quote him!


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## kceaster (Jun 28, 2005)

I don't think the worker is worthy of his wage when it comes to songs and music. Musicians are not the servants of the flock, they come no where near who Paul was referring to.

I'm not going to get rich by the music I write. I can't even fathom why someone would want to pay for it. Therefore, I give freely what didn't begin with me in the first place.

I understand book copyrights and the like because it actually costs money for them to bring it to the market and therefore recouping the cost should be allowed.

But a songmaker is not going through even a fraction of that expense to bring his "product" to the market. If he's entertaining, that's different. If people want to pay him to sing, I don't see why that is necessarily wrong. But demanding that someone pay everytime I sing their song is no different from paying the author of a book everytime I talk about an idea within it's pages. It's ludicrous. Should I pay John MacArthur or R. C. Sproul every time I reiterate something they've written? I'm not talking about a formal quote. I most certainly must get their permission to reuse something if I'm going to profit from it.

But what's next? Pastors will need to buy a separate license in order to quote someone's book from the pulpit?

The whole difference with the music industry is that it is peopled with those who just want to make money from what they do. Perhaps it's a noble pursuit, perhaps not. But if I'm singing their music in a car or at my home or with some friends at church, I shouldn't have to pay for that privilege.

Perhaps some good may come from this. Perhaps churches will get so fed up with having to pay that they return to traditional worship that's free.

We could only hope.

In Christ,

KC

The only reason


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## Anton Bruckner (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kceaster_
> 
> 
> Perhaps some good may come from this. Perhaps churches will get so fed up with having to pay that they return to traditional worship that's free.
> ...


I am hoping that the above is the end result of these blood sucking vipers. can you imagine if your congregation has 20 people, and you purchase a license for the size of that congregation, then you pray and fast and ask God for a revival and the revival comes, and your congregation grows to 200, you have to reapply for the license which will increase of course. So therefore the contemporary Christian music industry's profits are directly tied into the growth of the Church.


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 28, 2005)

Although I enjoy singing... seems to me like God is simply allowing man to do his (man's) good pleasure with church singing. So what?

Singing praises to God is of man. God gives us no commandment to sing for His worship (although this is nice and entertaining).

Let the capitalists flourish. If you hate it, throw singing out of the congregation.... or throw certain songs out. The song did not pay for Gaither's house, the congregations did (and did it joyfully).


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Singing praises to God is of man. God gives us no commandment to sing for His worship (although this is nice and entertaining).



Actually, God does command us to worship Him with singing:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in *psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing* with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16)


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## Arch2k (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> ...




It's funny how this is actually one of the FEW commands (elements) even ALLOWED in the worship of God.


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## Puritanhead (Jun 28, 2005)

If churches would just use traditional hymns that are _old and traditional_--- hint-hint nudge-nudge... than we could forgo all the copyright worries, as the greatest hymns are in public domain!


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 28, 2005)

My point again. How does Colossians 3:16 have anything to do with your worship of God? Is this what He requires of your worship of Him?

My perspective on worship then may be slightly different from the mainstream.

"Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Looks to me that the "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" are for teaching and admonishing one another. Not admonishing God. He has no need for this as we do.

God has His ways of bringing back to memory His observances. Singing is not worship. I believe He has prescribed something else.


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> My point again. How does Colossians 3:16 have anything to do with your worship of God? Is this what He requires of your worship of Him?
> 
> My perspective on worship then may be slightly different from the mainstream.
> ...



You refuted yourself with the very quotation you chose. In your Scriptural quote above, it clearly says, "singing with grace in your hearts *to the Lord.*"

Hmmm . . . the Bible commands us to sing "*to the Lord*" . . . not just to each other.


"O sing unto the LORD a new song:
sing unto the LORD, all the earth. 
Sing unto the LORD, bless his name;
show forth his salvation from day to day. " (Psalm 96:1-2)


"O come, let us sing unto the LORD:
let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. 
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving,
and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. 
For the LORD is a great God,
and a great King above all gods. . . . 
O come, let us worship and bow down:
let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 
For he is our God;
and we are the people of his pasture, 
and the sheep of his hand." (Psalm 95:1-3,6-7)


". . . four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:8-10) 


But you think God is not worshipped by singing?


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 28, 2005)

No, God is not worshiped by your singing in church. The Psalms of David and Moses are praises, which you can sing all day to God, praise Him with all your heart and all your mind. This is not His prescription for observance. 

I never refuted myself... I see nothing of worship in the verse. "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." What do you suppose that means in terms of worshipping God?... or does it have anything to do with your worship?

Is not God a Spirit? Worshipped in Spirit and truth? What is truth? What is the truth that He expects of your worship?

Is it OK to sing?.... sure, but it is above and beyond His prescription.


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 28, 2005)

Please let me clarify this a little:

King David is a fantastic example for all of us in terms of worship. We all love King David for many reasons. The scripture indicates he had a pure and grateful heart towards God and worshipped Him with all of his ability (which included worshipping God according to the commandments and ordinances).

Many of the Psalms reflect David's passionate heart for worship. "It is good to give thanks to the LORD, and to sing praises to Your name, O Most High; to declare Your loving kindness in the morning, and Your faithfulness every night" (Psalm 92:1-2).

"œI will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised" (Psalm 18:3). "œGreat is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145:3). David was truly a man after God´s own heart, because he glorified God in his heart as well as worshipped God according to the law.

Singing is in fact both good and edifying to the church. To truly worship God, we must know Him and not be ignorant of His prescription as well as His place of worship (Acts 17:23-24). 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with singing praises to the Lord. The Spirit has revealed to us that this is acceptable means of giving thanks and praise unto God, but it has nothing to do with the way that God has prescribed the worship of Himself.


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## Authorised (Jun 29, 2005)

Translations without the public domain can be quoted up to 500 verses, and as long as those verses do not consist of an entire book. I think that's fair. 


"He Touched Me" sounds like karaoke night at the Neverland ranch.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 29, 2005)

Sing the Psalms. God will not look for an infringement clause.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 29, 2005)

Sorry, If it looked like I was being smart aleck.

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Reformingstudent (Jun 29, 2005)

"And, his house that "He Touched Me" bought is not all that great and I would venture that most of the people in Alexandria, IN loathe him."

In Christ,

KC 

Please excuse my ignorance but why? Is that where his house is or something? Not up to speed on Christian entertainers. Especially ones that sing southern gospel


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## Anton Bruckner (Jun 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> 
> 
> "He Touched Me" sounds like karaoke night at the Neverland ranch.


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## kceaster (Jun 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Reformingstudent_
> Please excuse my ignorance but why? Is that where his house is or something? Not up to speed on Christian entertainers. Especially ones that sing southern gospel



Bill and Glo live on a sprawling ranch of about an acre in Alexandria, IN. They have a studio there along with a publishing house. The people they hire to work there (warehouse folk) they treat like Jews treated the Gentiles. My wife worked in the warehouse for a bit. They're not gracious employers. There was another studio in that town that a bunch of early Christian artists used when they were starting out, and the Gaithers really put them out of business.

So there's not too many people in that town who like them.

KC


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 29, 2005)

For those of you who _do_ happen to like Southern Gospel music, here is a group out of Colorado that does really good quality singing:

www.legacyquartet.com

Their latest album is titled "One Good Reason", and has two of my songs on it: http://www.legacyquartet.com/OneGoodReason.html

(I wrote tracks 1 & 10. Track one is "One Good Reason", and track 10 is "Grace for Me".)

They put some great Nashville musicians on this recording, including Reba McEntire's drummer. And the quartet singers themselves are exceedingly talented . . . superb voices.


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## heartoflesh (Jun 29, 2005)

The church used to produce music for the church, but now we rely on professionals. All part of the emerging corporate purpose-driven mentality, I guess.


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 29, 2005)

The church still does produce music for the church. But in addition, there are also some Christian music-professionals out there who put together exceedingly well-made recordings. (Besides, are they not part of the church, too?)

I don't have any problem at all with the creation and selling of Christian music on CDs, tapes, MP3s, etc.

But I do have a problem with charging churches to sing songs. That is a big difference.


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## Craig (Jun 29, 2005)

My younger brother loves Southern "Gospel"...he buys a bunch of Gaither's junk...but despises Gaither...I don't get it! Why do people buy his junk??? I think Southern "Gospel" is just TBN toned down a bit. Why listen to it? Why buy it? Why be surprised that this man found a niche and takes advantage of it day in and day out. 

If he's so despised, so dirty, and such a scoundrel, why don't we question the rest of the SG markent since most in Southern Gospel join in on his bandwagon? The whole thing is pure corruption if you ask me...more so than CCM.

BTW, I'm not kidding.


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## Robin (Jun 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by smallbeans_
> The worker is worthy of his wage. You don't have to use copyrighted music in your church - you could choose pre-1920s hymns, settings, harmonies, etc. But if you do want to use copyrighted music, then you need to license that music for the intended use and it shouldn't seem odd that people who make their living creating music should also have a say in who can perform or publish that music.



As a professional musician and composer...

However, much of the "Christian" music as it circulates in churches, actually reveals whether it is a blessing "from God" or not. I was with John Wimber (now he knows) and all the Vineyard songs really became a money making operation. I never met a worship team "leader" that truly had Godly attributes...and always thought it was conflict if interest to insist that the song you wrote "came from the Lord" so that would naturally make you "special" "annointed" "untouchable".

The whole Christian music industry breeds heaps of self-righteousness and greed. Hmmmmm, sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit to me! (sarcasm)



R.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jun 30, 2005)

What's unethical about Christian labels is how horribly cheesy and awful their bands and music are.


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## biblelighthouse (Jun 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> What's unethical about Christian labels is how horribly cheesy and awful their bands and music are.



I agree with you regarding some of what's out there, but that's a pretty big blanket statement! Are you saying that there are NO good bands and music in either Southern Gospel or Contemporary Christian Music?

I love the psalms. I love hymns. I also love listening to the Cathedrals, Steven Curtis Chapman, The Palmetto State Quartet, Michael W. Smith, Casting Crowns, The Blackwood Brothers, Twila Paris, etc., etc., etc.

Have you listened to the clips for the tracks (1 & 10) I wrote on this album? ---> http://legacyquartet.com/OneGoodReason.html


I'm especially referring to track 10 . . . "Grace for Me".










[Edited on 6-30-2005 by biblelighthouse]


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## Myshkin (Jun 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> What's unethical about Christian labels is how horribly cheesy and awful their bands and music are.




 To my ears it is like dentist chair music with some biblical words thrown in.


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## just_grace (Jul 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> I mean did David copy right the Psalms...
> 
> ...



When David wrote the Psalms he was not thinking of money...but today... Did Fanny Crosby make a wad? I think not!


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