# Theological education



## AlienPilgrim (Dec 10, 2003)

Hi. I'm a 17 year old Reformed Baptist with one more year of high school to complete and am seeking guidance concerning possible college and seminary training. I have a growing desire to become a youth pastor. This desire greatly intensified after reading a sermon preached by Rick Holland who is associate pastor for youth and college ministries at John MacArthur's church. The Next Generation Your counsel will be much appreciated!
~David


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 10, 2003)

Hi! Though I graduated from Moody Bible Institute... I really think that Boyce College (affiliated with Southern Seminary) is an EXCELLENT choice. If I had to do college over again I would go there.
Check it out!


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 10, 2003)

Get your bachelor's degree in something other than Biblical studies. If after getting a different degree you still have a desire to go into the ministry then proceed to seminary (but still make sure you use your electives to meet seminary requirements; i.e. philosophy, english, Greek if possible, etc.). You can still study theology in your free time. That way you will have a more confirmed calling and if for some reason the pastorate falls through you will have something to fall back on. Plus, many small churches cannot afford pastors so the pastor has to have a second job to make ends meet. Spurgeon said that you should try anything possible to avoid the ministry and if God wants you there then there's nothing that will keep you from it  Just some advice. Take it or leave it. 

Puritan Sailor


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## pastorway (Dec 10, 2003)

I second the advise above from Puritan Sailor!! I wish I had followed it!!

Get a &quot;useful&quot; degree in a field that offers a job with which you can support yourself and your future family. Then go to seminary.

I do not doubt your call to ministry, but the ministry likely will not support you and if you have no other useful degree or skills you will be working odd jobs for low pay and struggling to survive to the point that your ministry may suffer from the time you need to be working to pay the bills.

This sounds pessimistic, but it is right where I am right now - and the webmaster too - since we have theology degrees but not a degree any &quot;secular&quot; recruiter considers of value in the workplace today.

You might take vocational courses at a local community college and get certified in the medical field or some such job training and attend Bible college at the same time!

I recommend the Criswell College in Dallas, TX, where I graduated from. I also recommend Boice or the Master's College if you are going to go to Bible College right away.

Criswell also offers several practical MA degrees and an MDiv, as do seminaries of course.

Phillip


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## kceaster (Dec 10, 2003)

*David....*

I don't mean to project my experience on you and I am by no means saying that you have to do it just like me. I can very much relate to what you feel and think right now and I pass this on to you, not as a burden, hopefully, but as a blessing.

I, too, planned to go to Bible college, then seminary when I was your age. I had it all mapped out. I realize now, that had I completed that course, I would probably not be in the ministry at all by the age I am now (35 in two days). If the Lord wills, I will be close to 41 before I am ordained as a minister of the gospel. Some may look at this and say that I have wasted alot of time I could have been in ministry. I can't look at it that way. God has been preparing me all along the way and I would not trade His plan for mine any day of the week and twice on the Lord's day.

I second the motion by these men. I think a vocation and secular degree is a good plan. Or, even if you don't really know what kind of secular degree you would want, go to work or into the military or something like that. Life experience is greatly needed for what you are going to do. Get as much as you can and be content with where God has you. It may be that He wants you to go right away. Not every person can be like me or others I know who have waited. If they were all like me we would have been deprived of many great theologians and the works they accomplished prior to the age of 30. Robert Murray M'Cheyne died at 30 and what a life in the Lord he had!

I know you want to serve the Lord. I did, too. I had an insatiable desire to do so. God will use that to His glory and your benefit. Just be patient and seek Him. Don't be anxious or try to go ahead of Him. I think your ministry will be benefitted greatly by allowing time to grow in life experiences.

In Christ,

KC


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## fredtgreco (Dec 10, 2003)

There is an additional factor to be considered in heeding the good advice given here. If you are indeed in the ministry, it is a benefit to your people if you also have a second skill with which to minister to them. I can't count the number of students, congregants, ministers, etc that I have been privileged to give legal advice to.

It has also provided an opportunity to get past the shell of unbelieving spouses of church members. They can get to know me in a context in which there is no &quot;hidden&quot; agenda, no &quot;unspoken&quot; conversion job. Then once they know me, they will often ask me about spiritual things.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 10, 2003)

That's right. I can impress people with all the ways I can kill them. (Since I was a Ranger.) Hooah! 

Seriously, these guys are right... I made a recommendation of a school, but the youth ministry has way too many guys in it who are immature and have no life experience. I'd recommend the military or something before you go to any school. I don't think, though, that you have to get a &quot;real&quot; degree to learn a marketable trade.... but it doesn't hurt either!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 10, 2003)

I am a testimony to the advice above.

4 years of Greek/Hebrew and Biblical Studies in college, 2 years of Theological Study for an MATS, and currently working on a Doctorate in Philosophy/Theology - however, I have no secular skills and am finidng it exceedingly difficult to make ends meet financially right now. Do NOT LET THAT HAPPEN to you - you will regret it later - TRUST ME ON THIS ONE. No one wants to hire a theologian (or a youth pastor) when they need someone with skills for the world in which we live. Unfortuately, that is the way God providentially set up the world - we are aliens here, and sojourners. Be sure you have some solid secular skills that the world would want, and that you could be useful in no matter what you did.

I'm creative, but who cares. 
Creative + and MA in Business would have been much better.


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## AlienPilgrim (Dec 11, 2003)

Thank you all for your honest responses and for not &quot;tickling my ears.&quot; It has really helped me straighten some things out in my mind.  I was brought back down to earth. I certainly do not know what will happen in the future. I must pray and seek the Lord's guidance. May the Lord's will be done! Again, thanks for the refreshingly truthful comments.


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm glad I read this thread, since I, like David, definitely want to do something theological in nature with a lot of my time. I've thought about the ministry, but often think that my gifts would better fit me to teach theology at a college or seminary than to pursue the pastorate. I'm still considering both (in addition to other things), but I would like to know what you all think about the stability of a seminary professor as a career. Like you have said regarding the ministry, is seminary &quot;professorship&quot; also something you would recommend &quot;backing up&quot; with a secular degree? Or is it usually more &quot;stable&quot; (in terms of availability and finances) than pastoral ministry? Of course, I ultimately trust God to fulfill His plan for my life; I'd just like to know your thoughts about what I should do now (I'm a senior in high school) if I'm seriously considering being a professor of theology.

Thanks, and God bless.

[Edited on 12-12-2003 by Me Died Blue]


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## Bladestunner316 (Dec 12, 2003)

Matt,
I would hire a theologian. First Job stop people from nagging me to get a girlfriend

blade


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## ChristianasJourney (Dec 12, 2003)

*From a woman's perspective*

...I'm not one who would encourage you to go into the military to gain maturity...I don't think that the military necessarily teaches maturity. And I suspect in many ways it opens you up to new pressures and new temptations..but I've never been there. 

I will say, and I hope I don't offend anyone here, but since you're only 17 perhaps it will help prepare you--the youth pastors that I've known have lacked both maturity and discipline. A secular skill does provide you another source of making an income, but beyond that it gives you additional insight and skill into life, I think it helps to make a person a more well-rounded thinking individual...something that is terribly important to pass on to the youth you're leading. In many ways, as a youth leader, you're not just a spiritual leader, but you'll be the one they fall back on if they're having difficuties with their families, friends, and life problems...They will need a lot of spiritual leadership, but they'll also need some very practical advice to some very secular problems.

Just my :wr50:!



[Edited on 12-13-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


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## Gregg (Dec 13, 2003)

> [i:db6040c329]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:db6040c329]
> ...I'm not one who would encourage you to go into the military to gain maturity...I don't think that the military necessarily teaches maturity. And I suspect in many ways it opens you up to new pressures and new temptations..but I've never been there.
> 
> _________________________
> ...


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## ChristianasJourney (Dec 13, 2003)

[quote:34b1924086][i:34b1924086]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:34b1924086]
Matt,
I would hire a theologian. First Job stop people from nagging me to get a girlfriend

blade [/quote:34b1924086]

Hey Blade, don't you think it's time to get a girlfriend?




[Edited on 12-13-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 13, 2003)

[quote:7b5f37cf65][i:7b5f37cf65]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:7b5f37cf65]
...I'm not one who would encourage you to go into the military to gain maturity...I don't think that the military necessarily teaches maturity. And I suspect in many ways it opens you up to new pressures and new temptations..but I've never been there. 

I will say, and I hope I don't offend anyone here, but since you're only 17 perhaps it will help prepare you--the youth pastors that I've known have lacked both maturity and discipline. A secular skill does provide you another source of making an income, but beyond that it gives you additional insight and skill into life, I think it helps to make a person a more well-rounded thinking individual...something that is terribly important to pass on to the youth you're leading. In many ways, as a youth leader, you're not just a spiritual leader, but you'll be the one they fall back on if they're having difficuties with their families, friends, and life problems...They will need a lot of spiritual leadership, but they'll also need some very practical advice to some very secular problems.

Just my :wr50:!



[Edited on 12-13-2003 by ChristianasJourney] [/quote:7b5f37cf65]

The military is certainly not the place for weak Christians. You may learn alot about discipline and maturity in certain areas. But, you also are heavily tempted by a culture of drunkeness and sexual immorality. I have found very few Christian brothers in my Navy years, and even fewer whom I could count on for accountability. You will grow in your faith but it will be because of the adversity you experience not because the military fosters good spiritual growth. If you are going to advise someone to join the military make sure they join with their eyes wide open about the moral conditions they will be living in. There is a great need for Christian witness but it is very hard to succeed in that with such an entrenched culture of immorality.

Puritan Sailor


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## Gregg (Dec 13, 2003)

[quote:b8727981b7]_Originally posted by puritansailor

The military is certainly not the place for weak Christians. You may learn alot about discipline and maturity in certain areas. But, you also are heavily tempted by a culture of drunkeness and sexual immorality. I have found very few Christian brothers in my Navy years, and even fewer whom I could count on for accountability. You will grow in your faith but it will be because of the adversity you experience not because the military fosters good spiritual growth. If you are going to advise someone to join the military make sure they join with their eyes wide open about the moral conditions they will be living in. There is a great need for Christian witness but it is very hard to succeed in that with such an entrenched culture of immorality.

Puritan Sailor [/quote:b8727981b7]

________________________

Reply...

Hmmm...Sounds a lot like most secular workplaces also._


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## ChristianasJourney (Dec 13, 2003)

In the secular workplace you still have the daily interaction with your family, you can leave it behind you when you go home, and you're close to the your local church...I would think that the peer pressure in the secular workplace would not be quite so intense. 

I do think that Christians belong in the army...But I would not send my 17 year old, whose faith is not completely tried, who may have doubts about God, and who may have the propensity to adopt worldly peasures there. It is the physical and moral scars that I'm trying to prevent. in my opinion, in this case the gain isn't worth the effort. I can teach them maturity and discipline at home until I'm confidant that their strength and resolve will carry them through.


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## Gregg (Dec 13, 2003)

[quote:81ef0f4401][i:81ef0f4401]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:81ef0f4401]
In the secular workplace you still have the daily interaction with your family, you can leave it behind you when you go home, and you're close to the your local church...I would think that the peer pressure in the secular workplace would not be quite so intense. 

I do think that Christians belong in the army...But I would not send my 17 year old, whose faith is not completely tried, who may have doubts about God, and who may have the propensity to adopt worldly peasures there. It is the physical and moral scars that I'm trying to prevent. in my opinion, in this case the gain isn't worth the effort. I can teach them maturity and discipline at home until I'm confidant that their strength and resolve will carry them through. [/quote:81ef0f4401]

Reply...

Janice, if your son goes when he is 17, then you have to sign for him (because he is underage).

If he goes when he is 18, he signs for himself and makes the decision as an adult. 

My parents would not sign for me. I had to wait until I turned 18.

I agree with your statement about the peer pressure.


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## panicbird (Dec 13, 2003)

I figured that I could provide an opposing viewpoint here. I have a degree in Biblical Languages. I minored in Interdisciplinary Studies. I frequently joke that I have absolutely no marketable skills. It is very difficult to find a job for me because of my degree. However, I would not have done anything differently. I thoroughly enjoyed my undergraduate education and am looking forward to more education at seminary. Sure, not having a job is not fun, but my needs have always been met. I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, and clothes on my back (and a decent start on a good library). I do not think that I could ask for more.
As far as secular work (or the military) as an agent of maturity or as a source for experience: not necessarily. Example after example could be trotted out to show that secular work does lead to maturity, but just as many could be trotted out to show the opposite. Additionally, what sort of maturity are we talking about here? Does secular work lead to spiritual maturity? I know plenty of people in the secular workforce who are &quot;mature&quot; by many standards, but who can barely stand to take spiritual milk. And as far as experience goes: experience comes from everywhere, not just the military or the secular workforce.
Do not get me wrong: I am not knocking the secular workforce. In fact, I would not mind having a secular job right now. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong (and plenty good) about getting an undergraduate theological education. If you have delighted yourself in the Lord, have prayed about it and sought His face in the matter, and that is what is left upon your heart, PLEASE do not let the worries and anxieties of this world deter you.


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## Bladestunner316 (Dec 13, 2003)

CJ,
why is it time to get a girlfriend? Or what would constitute me a 21 year old male to have a girlfriend?

Matt helppppppppppppp!!!

Interesting to note though there was this one lady maybe a year or two older than me attractive blonde(not barbie) but she came inot the store and I was kinda observing here seeing what she was like she was getting a fax done from us. Well By boss was working with her and she asked to buy stamps and we have holiday ones with the virgin mary and Jesus the lady said she didnt want any stamps with Jesus on them but not because it violated the 2nd commanmendt but because she didnt want anything to do with him because he wasnt in her heart. My boss made a comment asking why she didnt like Jesus because he is christian (four square but at the very least knows thst only Christ is Lord!!) and she said that every one has there own thing and so on and well that made the attraction meter drop considerably:flaming:

I didnt know whethere to witness to her or rip ou her heart and show her how black it was before she died(mods may edit I apoligize now if it is needed) but since I more than likely have a bigger log in my eye did nothing.

blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Dec 13, 2003)

Here is a problem I had when at my old Dispensational church which made me furious. Now im not gona say going to a christian college for anything or for bible courses is bad by no means it is not.

When at my old church i had developed an avid interest in apologetics,theology, and the mormons(witnessing-and there mythology) they noticed it who couldnt.

So I wanted to learn more and I wasnt to sure what I wanted to do as far as schooling and my life. Idid and still have a passion to write as i love books.

Anyway the pastoral staff almost obsesivelly pestered me to go to bible colleges like tenessese temple(Dispensational) and said that if I didnt I would eb making amistake and waste away with my life etc.

thats part of the reason why I left that place. Dont let anyone pressure you into doing something you dont want to do with your education.

Make up your own mind PS said it best it might be good to get some general stuff in like being an electrical engineer or whatever and if the Lord wants you to seve him in that copacity he will have you do so.

My:wr50:
blade


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## Craig (Dec 13, 2003)

I would concur that you would more than likely want a degree in something other than Bible/Theology/Philosophy. 

Something to keep in mind also is that college isn't merely preparation for work. Study what you want to learn. If your desires are godly, follow your desire. I have a degree in English Literature...and I'm now in sales. Employers today don't give too much creedence to degrees...more to experience. 

Keep in mind that undergrad bible/theology is going to be more cursory, and possibly not that great. Study what interests you so you're not burnt out before seminary, if that is God's will. I believed that was God's will for me, but now I have doubts. I am glad I studied Literature. It has prepared me for a lot. I am glad I'm in sales. That is also a good foundation. Follow your interests and you may find a very interesting life of experiences....people still ask me if I'm planning on teaching with my degree, or going to seminary. I have no idea. I plan on keeping on in sales and doing other things business-wise. 

Well...that's sort of a ramble. My advice I guess is a bit different. Find the right school. Take classes that interest you...THEN declare a major. I changed my major 3 times and graduated in 9 semesters instead of 8. Just realize you can still finish on time and enjoy different fields instead of deciding before you have any experience.


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## Wannabee (Dec 19, 2003)

Alien Pilgrim

There's a lot of good advice here. I'd like to add another twist or two.

First of all, get a trade. Manual labor will always be needed, and it's good for you. You don't have to be journeyman, just able. Learn a few different things that you can use to make ends meet, even if the market falls apart. People need certain things. A handyman or auto mechanic is always needed simply because people don't know how to do things anymore. Get dirty. It's a great education. I don't mean to necessarily pursue it as a career, but it'll always be there to fall back on, and gives you great ability to minister to people and get into their houses where you can witness. Over the years we've found that we can live on just about any income, and I can always make a living of some sort. I've no &quot;career&quot; so to speak, but God has been gracious and given me jobs that have always put food on my table. We've had years of almost nothing, and years of great bucks coming in. Diversity counts for something, and adds flexibility.

Second, I wouldn't base any education on being a &quot;youth pastor&quot; (you won't find &quot;youth pastors&quot; in the Bible). If you desire this then go for it with the mentality that you're going to be a pastor of a huge, mature church. Too many think of youth pastors as second best. Don't cheat yourself. Get the deepest, best education you can so that you can divide God's Word accurately and proclaim it to any group, regardless of their generation. If you find a position as a youth pastor, great, but God may change your perspective as you pursue education. Whatever you do, make sure you're serving wherever you are. Get involved and minister to God's people.

Third (in number only), go on a few mission trips to gain perspective. Trips to central Mexico, Central America, South America, Central Aftrica or any poor or third world country would be one of the best educations you could get. Get away from the apathetic affluence of the US. Share your burden with your church, then as you go through college and get prepared for your &quot;career&quot; you can gain perspective. Maybe they can help send you on trips as a ministry to missionaries. Many missionaries come back to the US and are just plain sickened by how spoiled we are. We take luxury for granted, like it's a &quot;right.&quot; 

Always keep in mind that we're about ministering to PEOPLE. Sometimes our academics mess up our perspective. Get a heart for people, for the souls of mankind. &quot;The Minister as Shepherd&quot; by Jefferson is a great little book to help with perspective.

A proper view of what's really important will help anyone gain a better vision of eternity.

My err... three cents. Guess I got going there...


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## ChristianasJourney (Dec 19, 2003)

I agree with wannabee's entire post!

Learning a secondary trade or skill doesn't mean necessarily studying it in college, nor does it mean nescessarily becoming a laborer. I would follow your interests and educate yourself accordingly, either in college or through other resources--people, books, etc... Not everything is learned in college. If you have an interest in plumbing, carpentry, electrical work...I'm sure you'll be able to find a job along this line. But don't just show up for work...but ask questions, learn and understand as you go along. You be amazed at how capable and how experienced you'll quickly become. 

Learning a new skill is not necessarily a long-time process. I'm a floral designer, I have a real estate license, an insurance license and I'm registered with the National Assoc. of Securites Dealers (NASD). In each case I could get a license in a week to six weeks WITHOUT a college education. I'm sure there are many more professional occupations that are like that. Licensing is often only the first preliminary step into an industry, but once you have your foot in the door, you can go from there and become specialized in a particular area, that's not serviced by as many professionals. This often requires more thought and study, but is worth the effort and I would encourage. Then when you enter college you can focus more fully on what your needs are for seminary.

Having another skill(s) is very important for people in the ministry. It gives them the independence to preach what should be preached and not what the congregation wants to hear. I know a minister who was able to work his way through seminary by cleaning carpets in the summertime. I know of another who when asked to leave a church acquired a knowledge of real estate and fell back on his skills of a carpenter to remodel old homes.

In the end, we do have to be carefully saying we'll do this or that, because all plans happen according to the Lord's will, and through His hand. However, part of the good judgment and common sense that we're commanded to pray for, is to prepare ourselves the best that we are able, while trusting in God to see us through.

[Edited on 12-20-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


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## exscentric (Feb 19, 2004)

We all have our experience, but take a read on Matt. 6.33 area. God will supply needs. If you are called then He will provide the way - get to work doing what He leads you to do.

I once saw a coffee cup - and its message is even more true today.

I got a BA
I got an MA
I got a Ph.D.
Now all I need is a job. :wr51:

Not agin getten a trade, but let God lead you where He wants you to go.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 19, 2004)

Me Died Blue - 

[quote:a7b8e43297]
but often think that my gifts would better fit me to teach theology at a college or seminary than to pursue the pastorate. 
[/quote:a7b8e43297]

Do not divorce the pastorate from the seminary class in this way. How are you going to teach pastors about pastoring and theology (which is practical not abstract) unless you have experience in this? The most effective seminary teachers we can have are those who have been down in the trenches fighting and preaching for men's soul's int he pastorate. Even Calvin said, &quot;I am a theologian so I can be a good pastor.&quot; Oftentimes, seminaries are houses for intellecutal regurgitation and do not uphold the necessity of practical applications of the theology one learns. 

Let me ask this as a poll to anyone who went to seminary - 2 questions:

Did you learn the 10 commandments?

Did they teach you about the Lord's Day and it sapplication based out of the 4th commandment?

When I was in school, we learned where they were, and we learned theological ideas surrounding them, but practical application was not part of the overall curriculum in this way (which was sad.) That was at RTS in the early 90's. Now, I've heard, its even worse there.


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## dkicklig (Feb 20, 2004)

I wholeheartedly agree with webmaster. The best profs I had were former pastors or missionaries. Those that had never done anything outside of teaching at the college or grad school level were often so intellectual about the topic it bordered on irrellevancy.


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