# Street Evangelism - Bike



## Jonah

I want to use my bike for street evangelism. The idea is to be in a park in the neighborhood, every Saturday at the same time. I would like to set up my bike which has a crate mounted on its back rack so I will have some sings on the sides of the crate, and some literature/pamphlets in the crate. I was considering having also some music, and recently I've come across "Reformed Hip Hop". As I have doubts that this king of music may be too worldly, I also see that the lyrics are sound, and the artists interviewed were solid on the doctrine in their interviews (one of them is a member of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia). My neighborhood is predominantly black and Hispanic, and the young people culturally will most likely identify with this kind of music/art. It may be impossible anyway since I might need to charge for this, and this would also present legal problems, although I'm not sure.

I would welcome any feedback/ideas.

Thank you


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## earl40

Jonah said:


> I want to use my bike for street evangelism. The idea is to be in a park in the neighborhood, every Saturday at the same time. I would like to set up my bike which has a crate mounted on its back rack so I will have some sings on the sides of the crate, and some literature/pamphlets in the crate. I was considering having also some music, and recently I've come across "Reformed Hip Hop". As I have doubts that this king of music may be too worldly, I also see that the lyrics are sound, and the artists interviewed were solid on the doctrine in their interviews (one of them is a member of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia). My neighborhood is predominantly black and Hispanic, and the young people culturally will most likely identify with this kind of music/art. It may be impossible anyway since I might need to charge for this, and this would also present legal problems, although I'm not sure.
> 
> I would welcome any feedback/ideas.
> 
> Thank you



Why not just hang with your friends and witness to them and invite them to church? If they don't to come to church with you hang with them still.


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## Jonah

Why not a bike 
There are many ideas to evangelize, and many Christians with particular personalities. And different conditions, times, etc. And BTW I can do both.


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## mgkortus

Are you hoping the music will help initiate conversations? Or do you view the music itself as the message? Will this type of evangelism lead to relationships with those you are trying to witness to?


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## Jonah

In a way, both. as I said, I've just discovered that music (and words there are important) recently, after years of being prejudiced. This is not to replace the bible, and the doctrine, but as I said, some of those artist present theology.
And in the broader sense it would be pitiful if the music wasn't also a message, as, in the broader sense all we do.
But my goal would be to instill interest in Church Documents, Reformed writings (including Puritans which are in my opinion essential), Theology books, Apologetics, and classic Christian Hymns


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## Reformed Roman

Reformed hip hop was one of God's means to sanctify me though many years. Through it I was introduced to doctrine. I grew up in the boonies, and was listening to 50 cent, kanye west, etc. After I was given the gospel I got introduced to sound rap. I was pushed into the gospel deeper and deeper every day through the music which later led me to a website with like minded Christians. They were talking about doctrine I never heard of. So a kid who got saved in the middle of nowhere managed to grow radically all alone, and the music helped. I was getting the gospel proclaimed to me daily. Everyone listens to music. I don't think hip hop is evil. If a killer created the fork to kill does that mean I wouldn't eat with it? A lot of things were created for a lot of purposes. Every culture expresses themselves through different forms of music. And God and His goodness can be proclaimed in all of them.

People who can't fully see that, many of them can't because they don't understand other cultures. Cultural elitism where you have to talk, look, dress, listen to certain music, etc. That is a problem. I know many will disagree with me.


Regardless I would focus less on your method. Bottom line is people need the gospel. Hip hop, tract, or a conversation, none save a man. God changes hearts through the gospel. Proclaim it and watch God work. As long as your proclaiming it don't be down on yourself or worry about the details too much. 

On a side note, if you don't listen to rap much, like many music styles, they don't fit everywhere. Shai Linne would rarely be listened to here in St Louis and most in my subtext would hate his music and style. They would prefer Lecrae, KB, Thisl, stuff that they hear in this context. While east coast rap is popular in certain contexts, etc.

Glad you're wanting to proclaim.

BUT DON'T GIVE OUT FREE CDS!!! It's stealing and illegal. Many artists release free music to give out. Or you can ask artists directly about sharing their music, but burning cds is illegal unless your using them for personal use (and you own them)

I could offer many free suggestions from solid artists (if you need it)


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## clark thompson

Jonah said:


> I want to use my bike for street evangelism. The idea is to be in a park in the neighborhood, every Saturday at the same time. I would like to set up my bike which has a crate mounted on its back rack so I will have some sings on the sides of the crate, and some literature/pamphlets in the crate. I was considering having also some music, and recently I've come across "Reformed Hip Hop". As I have doubts that this king of music may be too worldly, I also see that the lyrics are sound, and the artists interviewed were solid on the doctrine in their interviews (one of them is a member of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia). My neighborhood is predominantly black and Hispanic, and the young people culturally will most likely identify with this kind of music/art. It may be impossible anyway since I might need to charge for this, and this would also present legal problems, although I'm not sure.
> 
> I would welcome any feedback/ideas.
> 
> Thank you


If you are able to share the word by doing this then it is a very good thing to do no matter what other people may tell, you need to do what the Lord leads you to do.


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## Jonah

Many thanks, Zach. I don't go on the Internet that often, that's why reply only now. I will talk to some people about free stuff. In general, I agree with you about cultures, although every culture has strengths and weaknesses, so not always it is just a "cultural difference" (what I mean some cultures could develop certain things better or worse than others, and in this sense we can judge them). Still, we are Christians, and, in a way, above any cultural limitations, etc. 

God bless you,
Jonah

PS. Yes, please give me your suggestions.


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## Jonah

Thanks Clark.
Jonah


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## MW

Suppose God did use "hip-hop" (which I doubt), the fact He hasn't used it in the lives of others makes it a divisive force. You say hip-hop; others say rock n roll; others say metal; others say jazz; others say blues. Why divide the church in this way? It pleases God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. God uses preaching. Of that we can be sure. On that we can unite. So unite with the church and be a force for good.

Where does the idea of reaching out on one's own come from? We do not see it in the Bible. Obviously super-heroes have to to go it alone, but God does not call His people to be super-heroes. He calls them to be His people.


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## Ed Walsh

MW said:


> We do not see it in the Bible. Obviously super-heroes have to to go it alone, but God does not call His people to be super-heroes. He calls them to be His people.



I agree that two or more are better than one. But I also remember Paul's lone work of evangelism In Athens while he was waiting for Silas and Timothy to arrive. Acts 17:16 & 17 Verse 15 seems to indicate that more people might have been with him, but his evangelism seemes to have been alone.


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## MW

Ed Walsh said:


> but his evangelism seemes to have been alone.



"Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him." It seems clear that he did not deliberately and ideally place himself in that position.


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## Ed Walsh

MW said:


> It seems clear that he did not deliberately and ideally place himself in that position.



Agreed!! Thanks


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## Edward

Before I answer, I want to make sure I understand the question. Are you planning on purchasing CDs and literature and reselling them (either at cost or for a profit) or are you talking about making counterfeit CDs (stealing) to sell?

At the least, you would need to contact the city to see what is required in the way of a street vendor's permit. And make sure it's not a nice bicycle, or you may be walking home.


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## Reformed Roman

So telling people about the gospel of Jesus Christ, in the world... Deliberately. Means you're trying to be a "superstar" or a "rockstar" Christian??????


I don't really know how to respond to that. . 

Has God ever used a book, a movie, a word from a friend, a piece of art, or anything really to remind you of His mercy and grace?? Has God used even a well cooked meal to remind you of His goodness???

Why in the world couldn't a song, that directly points me back to the scripture, why couldn't a song point you back to the scriptures?

A song will never save anyone. The word of God is the means to save.. But God uses many means to remind us of the Word of God..

If God can use you "giving a reason for the hope that is in you" to help save a soul, what is wrong with being more intentional about sharing that hope and spreading that word?

I'll never agree with the stance many on this board have on spreading the good news... It saddens me that many can almost discourage one from spreading the good news.. Even if they don't agree with hip hop in general... Many would still come here to discourage anyone from being intentional about sharing the good news.. It seems more like an excuse to be comfortable and worries me.


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## Reformed Roman

Let me just add this...

Clearly Pastors are called to Shepard the flock.. Their preaching from the pulpit is primarily for the church, considering church is a gathering of saints in the first place.

So just a challenge... Where are the preachers at, going out to spread the gospel at your church?? Something for everyone to consider. You may pay a few missionaries to go outside of the country, but who goes out to share??? If you think that we shouldn't be intentional with sharing the good news outside of church, and you think that God mainly uses preachers why aren't people preaching at your church frequently outside the church??

You're churches may be all doing these things.. Praise God if they are.. But I see churches that won't dare step out of the pews. Saints gather on Sunday, don't share at work and then they go home, and don't share at home... I'm Just trying to challenge some of these thoughts.. Now I'd love to hear responses. I genuinely want to see your viewpoints because from what I've heard in this thread and others, people believe no church people are called to evangelize, evangelism is a dead gift not given today, and God uses preaching, yet these preachers are in churches preaching to Saints.. I'm not getting it..


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## Jeri Tanner

MW said:


> Ed Walsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> but his evangelism seemes to have been alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him." It seems clear that he did not deliberately and ideally place himself in that position.
Click to expand...


In addition, doesn't the fact that Paul was an apostle, and thus a NT prophet come to bear? Isn't this an example of the acts of the apostles being descriptive of the mighty acts of God in establishing the church, rather than prescriptive examples for us to emulate?


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## a mere housewife

Jay, I was thinking more about the volume. Occasionally we get to go to a park here and not a fan of rap or hip hop myself, I find the volume at which others are playing it a bit disruptive. But I imagine you've already thought of that. I will pray for your effort.

Zach, I think there is trouble where people get the idea that this is everyone's calling, and that regular callings are not meaningful unless we are doing this. We do often have opportunities to share the word of God at work or in other settings where pastors couldn't go. When I was trying to work many years ago I had some very meaningful conversations. My sister has been able to share the gospel with all of her co-workers by reaching out to them in their troubles -- getting her pastor involved in counseling. It wound up that they all went to a funeral connected with the office, at which her pastor preached the gospel very clearly. I don't have those opportunities now. Now I cook and clean at home for my husband who is studying in seminary and working in a church with people who are working in the world. We do pray that they are learning how to share and live the gospel there, and that God will have them just where He can use them as witnesses. But my life is not part of this in a very active way at present. Yet I become more convicted, the more I see how miserable people are without Christ, that we should be daily praying and watching for opportunities to share Christ in whatever way we can. I share your concern (seeing it in myself) that it is too easy to retreat from wanting to share anything with the world at all. We have the only joy and hope this earth affords. We were given it freely. We should be longing not to keep it to ourselves, praying that we could overflow with it to others in some way, even if God has to crush the vessel to make it flow out. And we should know that God has us just where we are, even when where we are feels very insignificant, in His great purpose of salvation as we minister to one another.


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## Miss Marple

I encourage you in your endeavor and hope you post some updates as to how it goes.


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## Jeri Tanner

Zach Rohman said:


> Let me just add this...
> 
> Clearly Pastors are called to Shepard the flock.. Their preaching from the pulpit is primarily for the church, considering church is a gathering of saints in the first place.
> 
> So just a challenge... Where are the preachers at, going out to spread the gospel at your church?? Something for everyone to consider. You may pay a few missionaries to go outside of the country, but who goes out to share??? If you think that we shouldn't be intentional with sharing the good news outside of church, and you think that God mainly uses preachers why aren't people preaching at your church frequently outside the church??
> 
> You're churches may be all doing these things.. Praise God if they are.. But I see churches that won't dare step out of the pews. Saints gather on Sunday, don't share at work and then they go home, and don't share at home... I'm Just trying to challenge some of these thoughts.. Now I'd love to hear responses. I genuinely want to see your viewpoints because from what I've heard in this thread and others, people believe no church people are called to evangelize, evangelism is a dead gift not given today, and God uses preaching, yet these preachers are in churches preaching to Saints.. I'm not getting it..



It seems right to me that gifted men should be sent out into the "market places" of towns and cities to proclaim the gospel. I don't know why we don't see more of this? And Zach, I don't think anyone here is denying that we all should be ready to speak of Christ when we have opportunity to do so. I certainly take that duty and privilege seriously. It's the "every member a minister" model that is being challenged as unbliblical, and rightly so. I think there can definitely be the danger of a Lone Ranger mentality that could spring from the "every member a minister" model. I agree, it would be no good to correct these errors but not present the biblical model of how evangelism should be being done. If anyone can provide links to Reformed resources on biblical evangelism by local churches, that would be much appreciated I'm sure; I imagine there are a lot of past helpful discussions here on Puritanboard.

P.S. Back in the 70"s I was part of the Jesus Music movement. We just knew that the use of music outdoors would be an aid in evangelism- would draw people to us and then to Christ, etc. But we were wrong then, and it's still a wrong impulse (a well-intentioned impulse, but faulty nevertheless) to think that the use of any kind of music, skits, etc. will be effective in drawing people to Christ. It is not the prescription of Scripture, and it just doesn't work.


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## Reformed Roman

Jeri Tanner said:


> Zach Rohman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me just add this...
> 
> Clearly Pastors are called to Shepard the flock.. Their preaching from the pulpit is primarily for the church, considering church is a gathering of saints in the first place.
> 
> So just a challenge... Where are the preachers at, going out to spread the gospel at your church?? Something for everyone to consider. You may pay a few missionaries to go outside of the country, but who goes out to share??? If you think that we shouldn't be intentional with sharing the good news outside of church, and you think that God mainly uses preachers why aren't people preaching at your church frequently outside the church??
> 
> You're churches may be all doing these things.. Praise God if they are.. But I see churches that won't dare step out of the pews. Saints gather on Sunday, don't share at work and then they go home, and don't share at home... I'm Just trying to challenge some of these thoughts.. Now I'd love to hear responses. I genuinely want to see your viewpoints because from what I've heard in this thread and others, people believe no church people are called to evangelize, evangelism is a dead gift not given today, and God uses preaching, yet these preachers are in churches preaching to Saints.. I'm not getting it..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems right to me that gifted men should be sent out into the "market places" of towns and cities to proclaim the gospel. I don't know why we don't see more of this? And Zach, I don't think anyone here is denying that we all should be ready to speak of Christ when we have opportunity to do so. I certainly take that duty and privilege seriously. It's the "every member a minister" model that is being challenged as unbliblical, and rightly so. I think there can definitely be the danger of a Lone Ranger mentality that could spring from the "every member a minister" model. I agree, it would be no good to correct these errors but not present the biblical model of how evangelism should be being done. If anyone can provide links to Reformed resources on biblical evangelism by local churches, that would be much appreciated I'm sure; I imagine there are a lot of past helpful discussions here on Puritanboard.
> 
> P.S. Back in the 70"s I was part of the Jesus Music movement. We just knew that the use of music outdoors would be an aid in evangelism- would draw people to us and then to Christ, etc. But we were wrong then, and it's still a wrong impulse (a well-intentioned impulse, but faulty nevertheless) to think that the use of any kind of music, skits, etc. will be effective in drawing people to Christ. It is not the prescription of Scripture, and it just doesn't work.
Click to expand...


I mainly agree with what you said towards the end.. I think people constantly look for new methods to attract the lost... Reality is only God can save though the gospel.. 

I just see biblically that we all should be ready to share, and look for opportunities to do so.. And when someone wants to do that, I don't think it should be discouraged.. I also don't agree with all the similarities some people here make with preaching from the pulpit (to the church of Christ) and sharing the gospel and the Word publically. We can agree to disagree but I'm more than willing to listen to other view points. If anyone wants to break down the Word for preaching in multiple contexts in the bible, give descriptive definitions, etc.. I'm all for it.. The word should shape our views and our views shouldn't shape the Word so don't think by my passion for the gospel to be spread, that I am unwilling to hear other opinions


One more thing... What about the great commission?? I'm guessing most of you think of that as a commission to apostles, not believers? Same with Acts when Jesus told the disciples to go out in Acts 1?


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## MW

Zach Rohman said:


> So telling people about the gospel of Jesus Christ, in the world... Deliberately. Means you're trying to be a "superstar" or a "rockstar" Christian??????
> 
> 
> I don't really know how to respond to that. .



It is probably best that you don't respond to the straw man of your own making.


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## Jeri Tanner

Zach Rohman said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zach Rohman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me just add this...
> 
> Clearly Pastors are called to Shepard the flock.. Their preaching from the pulpit is primarily for the church, considering church is a gathering of saints in the first place.
> 
> So just a challenge... Where are the preachers at, going out to spread the gospel at your church?? Something for everyone to consider. You may pay a few missionaries to go outside of the country, but who goes out to share??? If you think that we shouldn't be intentional with sharing the good news outside of church, and you think that God mainly uses preachers why aren't people preaching at your church frequently outside the church??
> 
> You're churches may be all doing these things.. Praise God if they are.. But I see churches that won't dare step out of the pews. Saints gather on Sunday, don't share at work and then they go home, and don't share at home... I'm Just trying to challenge some of these thoughts.. Now I'd love to hear responses. I genuinely want to see your viewpoints because from what I've heard in this thread and others, people believe no church people are called to evangelize, evangelism is a dead gift not given today, and God uses preaching, yet these preachers are in churches preaching to Saints.. I'm not getting it..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems right to me that gifted men should be sent out into the "market places" of towns and cities to proclaim the gospel. I don't know why we don't see more of this? And Zach, I don't think anyone here is denying that we all should be ready to speak of Christ when we have opportunity to do so. I certainly take that duty and privilege seriously. It's the "every member a minister" model that is being challenged as unbliblical, and rightly so. I think there can definitely be the danger of a Lone Ranger mentality that could spring from the "every member a minister" model. I agree, it would be no good to correct these errors but not present the biblical model of how evangelism should be being done. If anyone can provide links to Reformed resources on biblical evangelism by local churches, that would be much appreciated I'm sure; I imagine there are a lot of past helpful discussions here on Puritanboard.
> 
> P.S. Back in the 70"s I was part of the Jesus Music movement. We just knew that the use of music outdoors would be an aid in evangelism- would draw people to us and then to Christ, etc. But we were wrong then, and it's still a wrong impulse (a well-intentioned impulse, but faulty nevertheless) to think that the use of any kind of music, skits, etc. will be effective in drawing people to Christ. It is not the prescription of Scripture, and it just doesn't work.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I mainly agree with what you said towards the end.. I think people constantly look for new methods to attract the lost... Reality is only God can save though the gospel..
> 
> I just see biblically that we all should be ready to share, and look for opportunities to do so.. And when someone wants to do that, I don't think it should be discouraged.. I also don't agree with all the similarities some people here make with preaching from the pulpit (to the church of Christ) and sharing the gospel and the Word publically. We can agree to disagree but I'm more than willing to listen to other view points. If anyone wants to break down the Word for preaching in multiple contexts in the bible, give descriptive definitions, etc.. I'm all for it.. The word should shape our views and our views shouldn't shape the Word so don't think by my passion for the gospel to be spread, that I am unwilling to hear other opinions
> 
> 
> One more thing... What about the great commission?? I'm guessing most of you think of that as a commission to apostles, not believers? Same with Acts when Jesus told the disciples to go out in Acts 1?
Click to expand...


Zach, If you haven't considered these things before, it all seems very foreign to what many of us grew up being taught. But I realized there was something wrong with the model used broadly by the evangelical church from reading again and again through Acts and the Epistles. Don't think of it as a view that squelches evangelism; it is really the biblical view that will increase evangelism and bear the most fruit. I found this today on Puritanboard: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/80652-An-open-letter-to-open-air-preachers-return-home! (Don't be put off by the title!), and from that thread, this link to the OPC Journal online: http://www.opc.org/OS/Ordained_Servant_2009.pdf, with an article by Charles G. Dennison of special interest beginning on about pg. 43. I think the reformed view is that the Great Commission was given to the apostles and continues as a mandate to the church.


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## Jonah

There are few things. First, going alone. I would rather not go alone, and I am sorry that that wasn't clear. ON the other hand, if I couldn't find anybody to go with me, I may go alone. Second. I am not doing some king of personal evangelism, I talk about this with my pastor. I am not going to preach! I am not a preacher. But saying that this kind of evangelism is not in the Bible is a bit silly. We do whatever we can do, and we do it in our best knowledge, and with the help of our local church authority, and with the Word of God as ultimate authority, but it is better to do it imperfectly (and isn't it always imperfect) than just sit around. I am in a position that this "street evangelism" seems to be the best option, the kind of evangelism I could do now. I seek to use my gifts and brains to serve the Lord. I do remember that evangelizing is not something mechanical, but our whole lives should bear witness, especially in the work place, etc. There are many ways. They are not exclusive, rather the other way around. About being divisive with music. Really? I personally like traditional hymns, and can't imagine, even for practical reasons, how we could sing hymns if we started to argue about what music is best. It's not about that. I thing that we go with traditional hymns, only if for practical reasons. On the other hand those who talk about "reformed" hip-hop here seem have no clue, just a kind of a legalistic view. I've heard many kinds of so called "Christian music" and most of this is bad. But... there are some good ones, with meaningful, faithful lyrics. And some hip hop has brilliant lyrics. And this is not about liturgy, it's about living outside the Lord's day but under God. And of course, I don't think that some kind of regulative principle applies to who can evangelize. Preaching, yes.


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## Jonah

"I think the reformed view is that the Great Commission was given to the apostles and continues as a mandate to the church"
It doesn't mean, however, that personal evangelism is banned. And to say that it is okay to talk on your job, or maybe okay to talk on the street, but not okay to have a bike seems a bit too mechanical. At which point it would stop being personal. How many people at the same time. Does talking about Christ in a circle of more that 7 people should be considered sinful?


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## Miss Marple

I believe the ban is on 10 or more...  I think your line of reasoning is cogent and hope all goes very well.


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## MW

Jonah said:


> I've heard many kinds of so called "Christian music" and most of this is bad. But... there are some good ones, with meaningful, faithful lyrics.



So it is personal preference. The gospel should not be tied up with personal preference. At all! Why cause unnecessary offence? I am sure you do not desire to see people walk away from you thinking the gospel is tasteless simply because of musical preferences.

The apostle became ALL things to ALL men, not SOME things to SOME men. Just have a think about it before you brand this as legalistic. It is the opposite of legalism; it is evangelical to the core. It is the gospel that matters. This is what God uses to save sinners. He does not use cultural means. Cultures are divided by nature. Christ is our peace!


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## Jonah

It's not personal preference. How did you deduce that? I just related my personal experience, because others used that to judge Hip Hop out of their personal experience. It's also not emotional. My personal preference would be Handel, and as far as hymns go Trinity Hymnal (although it's not just personal preference, but it would be, too). Some think that music sung in OPC is tasteless, and they get offended. That way we go back to evangelism without culture utopia, which of course it simply impossible. How all things to all men applies to a particular bike in the particular location - does it mean I should carry millions of types of music, or none of them. I guess what you say is none of them. How about my clothes - suit? Decent and in order, I know. Is suit decent? I like wearing a suit. I love it. There is no cultural neutrality. Somebody will always be offended. We can always stick with Vulgate Latin I'm sure the people in my neighborhood won't be offended. They will just ignore it.


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## Jonah

God doesn't use cultural means? God is the Lord over everything. I agree that we are no longer White or Black as Christians. Cultures divide that's true. That's why we need to go beyond them, but we cannot abstract from them. It's just not possible. I am post-millennial. Christ didn't do it.Paul appealed to Athenians by using their cultural references. And if music is to be used, its complicates things even more. You can say that music is not to be used as means of evangelism. This would require a regulative principle in regard to evangelism that occurs in the world. I don't think we have one. And why using Hip Hop increase me, and not Christ? Because it takes attention from what is most important? How if it is in submission to it? I agree that Christ did everything against the natural tendency of sinful man to use "marketing" in spreading the gospel. And coming back to "tasteless". I think this was your personal preference.


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## MW

It is always sad to see the Spirit of God replaced with the spirit of the age. Trusting to the works of men's hands might give a greater deal of personal control over the process but it is a barren exercise to squeeze grace out of nature.


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## Reformed Roman

God himself entrusted the gospel to us to share.. Using whatever means we have to spread His Word is not man glorifying but God glorifying.. Music will never save anyone... But the gospel saves... Preaching.. Eating.. Anything.. I've seen people saved from nothing but looking at a Christians actions.. Because that can lead to the Word, which changes hearts.. God works through the gospel but this is where we disagree: If preaching is the only means than sharing the hope that is in us means nothing... If sharing the hope that is in us is a good faithful means.. And we can use conversation.. Why not music?? I would never suggest it as the primary tool of evangelism.. But I use my actions, my art, even the way I study should bring people to examine the gospel.. 

I just don't get the reasoning.. We should share the hope.. But that's somehow not evangelism. We should only share through preaching but only ministers should preach.. We should participate in the great commission but only if we are asked to share the hope within us. We can share Christ through conversations but we can't share Him properly through a song... And if the song is a song that a different culture uses its even more uncomfortable...

I get that many of you aren't saying the points above but the line of reasoning seems foolish.. God uses men to preach.. Does that mean is "man glorifying"??

Using music as a means, your life, your lips, your art, etc. All of these things should show your a Christian and ultimately point people back to Christ and the gospel... All of those things should share the hope within us... I haven't seen a single biblical post to prove otherwise.. It's obvious in scripture we are called to share the hope.. Even participate in the great commission... And also use our actions and lips to glorify God and point people back to the gospel... But we can't use arts as a means to do so? We should leave art in the basement? 

And to believe that we should just leave all of our arts away.. And go grab a preacher to preach on the street corner... Beside we can't talk to people about the gospel ourselves?? These are all ideas I'm heading from these posts.. This brother was discouraged from using art to point people to the gospel and discouraged from even going out to share the hope within him.. Called a rock star for wanting to spread the good news..... This is about as anti biblical as you get..


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## Reformed Roman

And if sharing the hope within us is good.. And if it is good to paint, to write a song giving praise to God.. And if giving praise to God and sharing music that does so is good.. If sharing the hope that is within us through song is good.. Than what this brother is doing is good... While there are many means, and you may have a preference.. It is good and this brother shouldn't be discouraged from skiing good works that lead people to the Word and the gospel. 

But if we can't share the hope that is within us through song.. Pointing back to the Word through song.. We might as well go sing about telephones and paper clips.. 

If we can agree these are good things there shouldn't be discouragement here.

We could give other recommendations and good encouraging advice.. I think it's more personal to talk to a person vs handing out atract for example.. But we shouldn't keep discouraging people and make assumptions that they are trying to be superstars/rockstars Just because they want to share the hope within them

Ps: I'm making the straw man?? Really? Your . Admitting certain things are good. Certain things are half good and telling people trying to share the gospel makes them a rock star... Trying to share the fall of man and need for Christ.. Apparently that makes me a rock star.. Pointing people away from me but pointing to Christ.. Please tell me where giving the gospel is ever.. Ever... Considered man glorifying in the scripture... Especially when your main motive is the glory of God

And when scripture gives us a principle, we generally see multiple people going out together... We can say it is good to go out with multiple people and recommended.. We don't draw lines where scripture doesn't and assume someone is trying to be a super hero or a rockstar.. That's where your drawing lines scripture doesn't and using your own man made line to bring down others. A more appropriate thing to do is give the brother a loving suggestion to bring others.. Maybe suggest a different way to share the hope if you think hip hop isn't the most appropriate. I think it would have been more helpful to him


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## a mere housewife

I was thinking of these verses last night, Philippians 1:

14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Either the church had ordained a number of envious and contentious men, along with 'many' others, or the 'brethren' speaking the word were not all ordained. Regardless (I don't honestly know which!), 'every way' Christ was made known, the apostle Paul rejoiced. -- I was not thinking of this thread with regard to the part about being 'envious or contentious'. I was thinking that joy is an appropriate response, and prayer, to Christ being made known.

(I feel joy even hearing the Peanuts Christmas album in stores at Christmas -- and over the loudspeaker in the store comes the announcement of the gospel in Linus' voice: 'For unto you is born this day in the City of David, a Saviour . . .')

[Edit: this was added after a very clarifying post by Joshua, as an additional thought to the terms he defined -- it's now missing, but I thought it contained some good distinctions and biblical support.]


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## a mere housewife

I understand Joshua. No one would have encouraged anyone else to preach Christ -- or do anything whatsoever -- out of envy and strife. But along with that, it seems very important to encourage ourselves to joy and pray for one another in our imperfect witness. Many of us are erring on the side of not taking all the opportunities that come our way (Ruben and I have both known ourselves to be guilty of this).

I have trouble following how what Jay is talking of doing is out of bounds according to that revelation though? He's not claiming to 'preach'. He may have used the term 'evangelise' in a different sense than is used technically above (just as Paul may have used the term 'preach' in a different sense in Philippians -- I'm not sure how to interpret that). But if a conversation at work is legitimate, a conversation in a park near your home is surely not illegitimate. I was reading of how Christians in the far East often go to parks together and set up booths and hand out literature, and spread the gospel in this way. I think it is right to guard against pressuring Christians to feel that they are not doing 'enough', or that their callings are worthless or illegitimate, if they are not engaging in this way. As a child I was made to go door to door with a younger sibling handing out tracts and trying to engage people in conversation -- I wasn't regenerated myself at the time! And I am quite shy in person. This kind of idea of every Christian's real evangelistic calling is something I think it is important to avoid and I'm grateful for those who guard against it. But I'm grateful for those who do feel able to engage others in this way, along with doing well in their callings. 

Something I haven't quite understood: is the objection against the music specifically made along lines of Exclusive Psalmody? (I am no fan of much pop music, but one who doesn't see that position in Scripture might need a different line of argument to convince them that a specific cultural vehicle is an illegitimate way to express biblical truth in a non-preaching capacity? Ie, hymns themselves are set to certain cultural forms of music, and vary from culture to culture -- even Psalms: some cultures chant, some have more metrical tunes.)

It's always nice to talk to you, even when we might disagree (or just not communicate our agreement very clearly . Not to descend to _ad hominum_, but I hope you've bathed and put on cologne relatively recently . . .


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## Gesetveemet

At one time in my life I had a hankering to preach on the street, week after week I faithfully stood on the street corner and preformed what I believed was preaching the gospel. Looking back I now see that I was only proclaiming a complete savior, what was lacking is the gospel is only a complete savior "for a complete wretch" so what I
was doing was pressing people to turn without the Holy Spirit plowing the ground first there-by dangerously causing people to miss a step and in effect wanting people to appropriate to themselves a savior on their own assumption. 

Thankfully I have since realized that one I was not called and two I was not sent. Sorry if I have strayed from the original post.



.


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## Reformed Roman

If by evangelize, you mean preaching the gospel publicly, we can put that aside...

If we are all called to share the hope that is within us and the good news, in various ways, then why is this brother not being encouraged??

You can tell by my posts what I mean. We are using the Word evangelism differently, but the brother wants to share the hope within him and he is being told he's trying to be a super hero because of it... 

We might disagree with the application of the great commission.. But that doesn't change the point that a brother has been torn down for sharing the hope within him.. Again. I would always encourage people to go with more people to do so.. But if I mean spread the gospel to others by the word evangelize, which is what I was meaning, there should not be an issue. I appreciate all the posts I can sift through regarding how the word is fully defined in scripture, and how to apply the great commission.

At the same time, the majority of this is irrelevant. My main point is that this brother has been torn down for wanting to share when it is a good thing.. Several people have given reasons why he shouldn't go out but if he's not preaching and simply sharing the hope that is within him through a variety of means, why is anyone discouraging him?


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## Jeri Tanner

Jonah said:


> I want to use my bike for street evangelism. The idea is to be in a park in the neighborhood, every Saturday at the same time. I would like to set up my bike which has a crate mounted on its back rack so I will have some sings on the sides of the crate, and some literature/pamphlets in the crate. I was considering having also some music, and recently I've come across "Reformed Hip Hop". As I have doubts that this king of music may be too worldly, I also see that the lyrics are sound, and the artists interviewed were solid on the doctrine in their interviews (one of them is a member of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia). My neighborhood is predominantly black and Hispanic, and the young people culturally will most likely identify with this kind of music/art. It may be impossible anyway since I might need to charge for this, and this would also present legal problems, although I'm not sure.
> 
> I would welcome any feedback/ideas.
> 
> Thank you



You asked for feedback and ideas. You got some! I think you may not understand the background of some of the things being said. You've said a couple of times that there is no regulative principle for evangelism. But there is a biblical doctrine- a regulation- for every single practice of the church. It often takes study to get to it; not every doctrine of the church can be proof-texted. Evangelism is a command to the church, and thus it is a commission that is to be carried out with great attention and care to what God in his word has prescribed. Until we care more about what God really has said about things than what we already think he has said, we're stuck in views that may need sanctifying. Everyone here wants evangelism to happen. But everyone here (including you I am sure) wants evangelism to happen according to God's will. That's why Christ told his church to pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send out laborers. He sends them out. He sends them through the church recognizing them and sending them. Otherwise, we could all go down to the park and consider ourselves as fulfilling the great commission. ...That sounded snarky and I didn't mean it that way!  I appreciate your impulse to share the gospel and witness for Christ. Are the pastors of your church interested in going out to the highways and byways to evangelize?


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## Jeri Tanner

a mere housewife said:


> I understand Joshua. No one would have encouraged anyone else to preach Christ -- or do anything whatsoever -- out of envy and strife. But along with that, it seems very important to encourage ourselves to joy and pray for one another in our imperfect witness. Many of us are erring on the side of not taking all the opportunities that come our way (Ruben and I have both known ourselves to be guilty of this).
> 
> I have trouble following how what Jay is talking of doing is out of bounds according to that revelation though? He's not claiming to 'preach'. He may have used the term 'evangelise' in a different sense than is used technically above (just as Paul may have used the term 'preach' in a different sense in Philippians -- I'm not sure how to interpret that). But if a conversation at work is legitimate, a conversation in a park near your home is surely not illegitimate. I was reading of how Christians in the far East often go to parks together and set up booths and hand out literature, and spread the gospel in this way. I think it is right to guard against pressuring Christians to feel that they are not doing 'enough', or that their callings are worthless or illegitimate, if they are not engaging in this way. As a child I was made to go door to door with a younger sibling handing out tracts and trying to engage people in conversation -- I wasn't regenerated myself at the time! And I am quite shy in person. This kind of idea of every Christian's real evangelistic calling is something I think it is important to avoid and I'm grateful for those who guard against it. But I'm grateful for those who do feel able to engage others in this way, along with doing well in their callings.
> 
> Something I haven't quite understood: is the objection against the music specifically made along lines of Exclusive Psalmody? (I am no fan of much pop music, but one who doesn't see that position in Scripture might need a different line of argument to convince them that a specific cultural vehicle is an illegitimate way to express biblical truth in a non-preaching capacity? Ie, hymns themselves are set to certain cultural forms of music, and vary from culture to culture -- even Psalms: some cultures chant, some have more metrical tunes.)
> 
> It's always nice to talk to you, even when we might disagree (or just not communicate our agreement very clearly . Not to descend to _ad hominum_, but I hope you've bathed and put on cologne relatively recently . . .



Heidi, I don't think the issue with the music is identical to the issues of exclusive psalmody, since we're talking about evangelism and not worship. But music is a means/method that must be dealt with- does it have a place, what place does it have, in both (worship and evangelism). Believing that God does have a will about this, and being a believer in the regulative principle and that evangelism is surely a command to the church that is regulated by God, I would say we do better not to make music a part of outreach to unbelievers. It never was at any point in biblical times, and wasn't in times of reform in the church (and not because people wouldn't have liked for it to be!)


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## MW

Zach Rohman said:


> I've seen people saved from nothing but looking at a Christians actions.



That is how you have interpreted it. Bring this experience to the light of the Word and it will be seen differently. Sinners are saved by grace, by the redeeming work of the Lord Jesus Christ. The gospel is a "word," a "message," which tells us what Jesus Christ has done for the salvation of sinners. This message requires faith in the Lord Jesus Christ -- faith in what He has done. No person is saved by looking at the life of another sinful person. It is only by looking to Christ, the sinless One, the righteous One, that a sinner is saved. Sinners need the gospel. They do not need another gospel which is no gospel. Making the works of sinful men a means of salvation is "another gospel."


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## Reformed Roman

The works of sinful men glorify God because those works are done by the Holy Spirit. And God can use those works to lead people to the Word, or to a conversation, where they are indeed saved by the message, the Word, the gospel. I'm not saying God saved by it, God saves through the gospel.


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## Reformed Roman

"Music will never save anyone... But the gospel saves... Preaching.. Eating.. Anything.. I've seen people saved from nothing but looking at a Christians actions.. Because that can lead to the Word, which changes hearts"

And your clearly taking what I said out of context.... I'm trying not to take it personally because the context was obvious. Notice I said "that can lead to the Word... Which changes hearts" and clearly God is the one who works through the Word to save.. Just like God can use mans actions to prompt people to read the Word.. Or prompt people to ask about Christianity. God uses our lives to bear witness about Him. That doesn't mean He saves through our actions, and in context you should be able to see what I meant by that.


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## MW

Zach Rohman said:


> That doesn't mean He saves through our actions, and in context you should be able to see what I meant by that.



You have sinners looking to sinners as a means of salvation. I reject it, even if you qualify that the works of sinners are serving to prepare others for the Word. It is an error, and one which could have serious spiritual consequences. It makes men dependent on the spirit of the age rather than the Spirit of God. We have seen it in the history of the church and we see it in the history of individual churches today. It is the sure and steady way to declension.

You don't need to take what I say personally; I am not rejecting you; I am rejecting your error. I can distinguish between the two and I hope you can too.


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## PuritanCovenanter

MW said:


> Zach Rohman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen people saved from nothing but looking at a Christians actions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is how you have interpreted it. Bring this experience to the light of the Word and it will be seen differently. Sinners are saved by grace, by the redeeming work of the Lord Jesus Christ. The gospel is a "word," a "message," which tells us what Jesus Christ has done for the salvation of sinners. This message requires faith in the Lord Jesus Christ -- faith in what He has done. No person is saved by looking at the life of another sinful person. It is only by looking to Christ, the sinless One, the righteous One, that a sinner is saved. Sinners need the gospel. They do not need another gospel which is no gospel. Making the works of sinful men a means of salvation is "another gospel."
Click to expand...

I don't want to appear insolent Rev. Winner but aren't we suppose to prove what the will of God is by our lives? Romans 12:1-3

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, _which is_ your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what _is_ that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think _of himself_ more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 

Is not our speech to be edifying that it may minister grace? Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Paul's words called others to be imitators of himself l as he followed Christ? 1 Corinthians 4

4 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn _you_. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet _have ye_ not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

I only mention these things because I would hear these passages and similar passages saying things that make us instruments of grace in His world.



MW said:


> Zach Rohman said:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean He saves through our actions, and in context you should be able to see what I meant by that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have sinners looking to sinners as a means of salvation. I reject it, even if you qualify that the works of sinners are serving to prepare others for the Word. It is an error, and one which could have serious spiritual consequences. It makes men dependent on the spirit of the age rather than the Spirit of God. We have seen it in the history of the church and we see it in the history of individual churches today. It is the sure and steady way to declension.
> 
> You don't need to take what I say personally; I am not rejecting you; I am rejecting your error. I can distinguish between the two and I hope you can too.
Click to expand...


That clarifies what I was going to ask. 

I would just add a note that I truly have seen many so called conversions due to a means such as (name your cultural music) that didn't pan out years later. God uses His Word by the means of His Church. And Evangelism is much more than a call for salvation. It is life long message of reconciliation with God on many levels. We can't have that without God's ordained means to help and grow us up through all of life.


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## MW

Randy, it is good to see you, in the virtual sense.

These passages have a context and we are bound to understand them in their context. One of them is directly related to the unity of the body as it seeks to serve in various ways. Another specifically pertains to speech. Another refers to those who have been set apart to be preachers and teachers of the Word.

I am not denying that there are "moral" actions which adorn the Word. We must be light in the world. Our conversation should be as becomes the gospel of Christ. I am denying that the sinful works of men are in any sense a means of salvation. The appeal to cultural means is a slippery-slope which always leaves its adherents in a broken mess at the bottom of a steep incline.


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## PuritanCovenanter

MW said:


> Randy, it is good to see you, in the virtual sense.
> 
> These passages have a context and we are bound to understand them in their context. One of them is directly related to the unity of the body as it seeks to serve in various ways. Another specifically pertains to speech. Another refers to those who have been set apart to be preachers and teachers of the Word.
> 
> I am not denying that there are "moral" actions which adorn the Word. We must be light in the world. Our conversation should be as becomes the gospel of Christ. I am denying that the sinful works of men are in any sense a means of salvation. The appeal to cultural means is a slippery-slope which always leaves its adherents in a broken mess at the bottom of a steep incline.


Thank you for filling in the empty spots to my questions Rev. Winzer. You prove what I was desiring to get at. There is a context from where we need to draw meaning and application. Many young men (and many of us older) draw improper conclusions when we start to peel off by ourselves in a direction that we sense others might be neglecting. Proper balance and understanding are very important. Context is King for understanding. So is a humble spirit. As Hebrews 13:7,17 notes, we should listen to our Elders. God gives grace to the humble.


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## Reformed Roman

In context I never meant that anything I can do contributes to salvation and I made that perfectly clear in several of my posts..

In the end though we do disagree on the application of the great commission and I feel you radically overephasize the minister when many things in scripture, even acts of kindness are called ministry, . (I still believe of course than many forms of ministry require qualification) I know we differ on these topics which is okay.. I disagree with many as do you and others on the board. Still one in Christ, saved by Him and His grace alone


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## Pergamum

MW said:


> Zach Rohman said:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean He saves through our actions, and in context you should be able to see what I meant by that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have sinners looking to sinners as a means of salvation. I reject it, even if you qualify that the works of sinners are serving to prepare others for the Word. It is an error, and one which could have serious spiritual consequences. It makes men dependent on the spirit of the age rather than the Spirit of God. We have seen it in the history of the church and we see it in the history of individual churches today. It is the sure and steady way to declension.
> 
> You don't need to take what I say personally; I am not rejecting you; I am rejecting your error. I can distinguish between the two and I hope you can too.
Click to expand...


You seem to be misrepresenting Zach's words and cherry-picking phrases. You even concede Zach's point by asserting the same concept:


> I am not denying that there are "moral" actions which adorn the Word. We must be light in the world. Our conversation should be as becomes the gospel of Christ.


 Yet, it doesn't seem like Zach is denying this at all, but has already asserted the same thing.

You stated that: 


> Making the works of sinful men a means of salvation is "another gospel."



Yet the Confessions speak of the "preaching of the Word" as an instrumental means. This preaching is not from a disembodied voice, but the voice comes from men, according to Romans 10 "...And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> You seem to be misrepresenting Zach's words and cherry-picking phrases.



Who is cherry-picking? Go back through the discussion. The issue was a particular "cultural" music for sharing the gospel. I opposed the use of this. Zach was defending it. In clarifying my position to Randy I noted that I don't deny a "moral" adorning of the gospel. Unless you are going to make hip-hop "moral" you have to concede a vast difference.


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## MW

Pergamum said:


> Yet the Confessions speak of the "preaching of the Word" as an instrumental means. This preaching is not from a disembodied voice, but the voice comes from men, according to Romans 10 "...And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"



The authority of the gospel ministry is in its speaking the word of God; when it is compromised by cultural influences it speaks the wisdom of the world and loses the authority expressed in Romans 10.


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