# Reformed monastaries



## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

To my understanding, Luther was never completely against the idea of having Protestant monastaries. In fact, I think he was planning on instituting some until at the end of his life he decided that it would be too difficult of a conception since the idea of monastaries is Romanized.

Now, this, in my opinion was a great aspect of the early church. It was entirely called for during the period (due to cultural situations etc.). But this is not the ideal for the entire church age. In fact, if our time in history does not call for it, we would be regressing and not fulfilling the cultural mandate that we have to reform society (and not stay behind walls). 

But, if the time is right, monasticism can reform culture. I don't think this is the time though. We need Christian intellectuals to infilterate secular universities. And for Christian political thought to be active outside of our churches. 

This is not the best time to withdraw from culture. But this is definitely a time to contemplate American culture. Or for the entire Western world for that matter. The impact of True Religion upon all of life is not at an all time high right now. 

With the technology we have today, this (what I am about to say) may not be necessary (and that can be a powerful argument against what I am about to say), but could it be helpful for the Protestant world to develope places of study, maybe adopting some of the ideas from monastic antiquity?

By this, I mean, not the average seminary... But developing ancient themes of Christian life into a community of believers for a given amount of time... Certainly devoting your whole life to live by yourself somewhere is a waste. But I am talking from a time range of 1-10 years. 

Is the average stay at a modern seminary enough? I would say absolutely not! I don't see anything wrong with allowing future ministers to stay in isolation (though still going into the world) for a space of time. This could be very benificial for developing the thought and lives of future ministers.

And not only for ministers, but for all those who wish to devote themselves to the contemplation of the Divine for a certain period of time, while putting off the immediates of life until heavenly things are taken care of. This can be seen throughout the church in the OT. There were always people devoting themselves to this life for a period of time.

thoughts??

Rembrandt


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## Puritan Sailor (May 15, 2004)

There is a place like this. It's called the Church. And if you would like it on a smaller, more specific scale, you could start a Bible Study. Monastacism is a failed attempt to put away distractions and temptations from the world. But these problems do not go away simply because you lock yourself up. The sin is within you. It goes where you go. You may not be distracted by the world in a monastary but you will be distracted by the world within your own mind, corrupt thoughts, worldly memories, regrets, temptations to explore the world again.... You may remove an idol from the worshipper, but that will not remove his idolatrous heart. He will only replace it with another. Plus, it is our confrontations with the world which drives us to Christ and refines our faith. A soldier learns how to fight not just from study but from experience. He learns warfare from his bruises. :wr50:


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## king of fools (May 15, 2004)

Most of the biggest explosions of my own personal spiritual growth have come from direct friction and conflict with the world.


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## KayJay (May 15, 2004)

Personally I would love a period of &quot;monastic&quot; time or whatever it might be called, however I know that could never prepare me to deal with the world. 

I spent two years in Bible college and while I LOVED that time - the believers there were more conservative than you would find in most churches and it was very very &quot;sheltered&quot;. Dealing with the unsaved and dealing with worldly believers is extremely difficult for me now because I just look back and long for the days when there were at least a few more like-minded people around.

Anyway - all im trying to say with that jumbled mess is - isolating oneself for a period of time could possibly motivate them b/c of the learning they recieve OR it could make them convinced they want to STAY in that monastic environment forever. Let's face it - that environment is probably the most enjoyable thing one could do this side of heaven (at least in my mind) b/c you could just learn all that you want and not be bothered with trivial things or frustrating people and nurture your own relationship with the Lord...but it is a bit selfish...not to mention that fact that God often uses the trivial things and frustrating people to make us live out our theology.


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## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

Um, monastaries were not for self gain. Though, alot of them were historically. Try to get a Roman view of monastaries out of your head, this is not what I am talking about here. 

Puritansailor, I agree that all (or 'some' rather) the problems that are out in the world will be in the monastary as well. 

But this is not just for personal gain. Could a person grow more spiritually by being in a monastary? Well, I don't know. If it is done correctly I think it would help, maybe not to deal with problems of the world, but to live that way in complete God-conscienceness could [i:83687da907]prepare[/i:83687da907] one to take on the world. If you dismiss this idea, you dismiss L'abri (Schaffer's place) and other places like it. Has L'abri helped people? Absolutely!

I should have made this more clear, but I was talking about a time of withdrawl for [primarily] STUDY. Thats what I was trying to get at when I was comparing it to a modern seminary and what not. Think about it man, a couple years of that would be like heaven (for me anyway). Most distractions are gone and you don't have to do anything except study and contemplate the Divine and also spend time evaluating culture and how it can be impacted once you leave. Some future theology teachers do something like that, but not at a monastary setting of course: they spend a year or two doing graduate studies overseas somewhere and do nothing but concentrate on the immediate task of learning.

My idea of this, would be basically a Christian university where one can live and focus full throttle on the task ahead.

Rembrandt


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## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

[quote:08f4d6c8bd][i:08f4d6c8bd]Originally posted by joshua[/i:08f4d6c8bd]
I'd have a hard time understanding where someone could get a biblical mandate for Monasticism. That would just be foolish. It'd be kind of difficult to &quot;Go ye therefore into all the World...&quot; On top of all that, it'd be selfish. Just my :wr50: [/quote:08f4d6c8bd]

That was my primary concern (read first post). To live like this for one's whole life would not be fulfilling the mandate. I am talking about a period of preparation (1-10 years).

I said this in my first post: 
[quote:08f4d6c8bd]Now, this, in my opinion was a great aspect of the early church. It was entirely called for during the period (due to cultural situations etc.). But this is not the ideal for the entire church age. In fact, if our time in history does not call for it, we would be regressing and not fulfilling the cultural mandate that we have to reform society (and not stay behind walls).[/quote:08f4d6c8bd]

I'm not saying that this would be useful right now, but it is a fact that [b:08f4d6c8bd]monasticism in the early church actually reformed culture.[/b:08f4d6c8bd]

In regards to it being selfish: is it selfish to spend all your time on yourself when you go to college? It is a necessity. Preparation has its time and it is not forever.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 15, 2004)

I would not be directly opposed to the idea as long as it was done properly. Sometimes you need to get away from the world for some peace of mind I could use that.

blade


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## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

And of course this would be at a nice location. For instance, a castle in Europe. They are actually pretty cheap and can be useful for daily living. In fact, I was thinking about buying one myself, or atleast renting one. (check the prices on em' some time, it is amazing.)

Oh, and I would not call it a monastary or use any terms of the such. This would be entirely Reformed. I would call it &quot;The New Augustinian Order&quot; (NAO). We are gonna show the Augustinian monks (of Rome) how it is really to be done. Lets not forget that Augustine was a house-monk. It can be done... Luther said so.

Rembrandt


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## Bladestunner316 (May 15, 2004)

norway or iceland nice beautiful and quit and away from woman


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## blhowes (May 15, 2004)

[b:bf5252d535]Patrick wrote:[/b:bf5252d535]
You may not be distracted by the world in a monastary but you will be distracted by the world within your own mind, corrupt thoughts, worldly memories, regrets, temptations to explore the world again.... You may remove an idol from the worshipper, but that will not remove his idolatrous heart.

That reminds me of Martin Luther before God saved him. He lived in the monastery and, the more he struggled to rid himself of his sin, the more keenly aware he was of the strength of the sin within himself and how powerless he was to eliminate that sin.

I agree with others who've said that some of the principles of the monastic life are good for short periods of time. We all (?) need time to &quot;get away&quot; from the world and to be alone with God from time to time. Waking up before the rest of the family does to have personal devotions is one way. Or when we go into our &quot;prayer closet&quot; and pray to God is another way. 

Bob


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## wsw201 (May 15, 2004)

[quote:a687f78b98][i:a687f78b98]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:a687f78b98]
There is a place like this. It's called the Church. And if you would like it on a smaller, more specific scale, you could start a Bible Study. Monastacism is a failed attempt to put away distractions and temptations from the world. But these problems do not go away simply because you lock yourself up. The sin is within you. It goes where you go. You may not be distracted by the world in a monastary but you will be distracted by the world within your own mind, corrupt thoughts, worldly memories, regrets, temptations to explore the world again.... You may remove an idol from the worshipper, but that will not remove his idolatrous heart. He will only replace it with another. Plus, it is our confrontations with the world which drives us to Christ and refines our faith. A soldier learns how to fight not just from study but from experience. He learns warfare from his bruises. :wr50: [/quote:a687f78b98]

I believe that what Patrick has stated is absolutely correct. It is the Church that is responsible for equipping/preparing the saints; its is the Church that is the Boby of Christ; it is the Church where believers come together for the edification of each member of the body as God has gifted each saint. One does not only isolate oneself from the world through some type of monasticism, but they isolate themselves from the Church out of which there is no ordinary means of salvation. Monasticism tends to concentrate on the &quot;self&quot; versus &quot;denying self, picking up the cross and following Christ&quot;. God has already created a community that &quot;is in the world but not of the world&quot;, it is the Church, the Ecclisia of God.


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## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

[quote:8fcbcbf224][i:8fcbcbf224]Originally posted by joshua[/i:8fcbcbf224]
I agree with short periods of time. But that's not really what monasticism is, is it? [/quote:8fcbcbf224]

I was just using &quot;monasticism&quot; as a catch phrase.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 15, 2004)

wayne and hattrick 

blade


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## MICWARFIELD (May 15, 2004)

I've thought about this quite a bit myself. I'm with Rembrandt.


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## rembrandt (May 15, 2004)

*read this*

[quote:95345799f9][i:95345799f9]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:95345799f9] It is the Church that is responsible for equipping/preparing the saints; its is the Church that is the Boby of Christ; it is the Church where believers come together for the edification of each member of the body as God has gifted each saint.[/quote:95345799f9]

If a group of lay people and ministers of the word went off on a retreat, do they cease to be a church? Wherever they go they are the church. It is indeed the church's responsiblitiy to do what you said, but they are still the church wherever they go; thus, performing the same work of the church in a different location. 


[quote:95345799f9]One does not only isolate oneself from the world through some type of monasticism, but they isolate themselves from the Church out of which there is no ordinary means of salvation.[/quote:95345799f9]

I have thought about this as well. Would this be despising the local church? If you agree with the concept of modern seminaries, you have already concluded that the local church is not enough, and that time spent learning from a source other than the local church can be useful.

[quote:95345799f9]God has already created a community that &quot;is in the world but not of the world&quot;, it is the Church, the Ecclisia of God. [/quote:95345799f9]

Then why do you go on retreats? Same concept here. I am only talking about withdrawling for a PERIOD OF TIME. 

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-15-2004 by rembrandt]


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## Puritan Sailor (May 16, 2004)

And what if I'm married? Do I leave my family for this period of time to live in this Protestant monastary? Or is that option no longer available to me? And if you say my children can come with me then woe be unto that monastary, for they will never have any piece and quiet to contemplate the things of God


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## rembrandt (May 16, 2004)

The 'New Augustinian Order' (NAO) does not allow children. We adhere to the Bible, that the married man shall stay with his family. A few retreat centers (monastaries) would not rule out seminaries and such.

Rembrandt


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## robot (May 16, 2004)

God has made some men (and women) in such a way that they have no desire to marry, and instead will be free to devote their lives completely to God. Why not band these people together, so that they can minister together as a stronger unit? Monastic orders can accomplish amazing feats of charity, and devote lots of time to translate the Bible into foreign tongues, spread the Word to the world, and help communities. I think they are a great thing, if done correctly.


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## rembrandt (May 16, 2004)

[quote:aefa7025bc][i:aefa7025bc]Originally posted by robot[/i:aefa7025bc]
God has made some men (and women) in such a way that they have no desire to marry, and instead will be free to devote their lives completely to God. Why not band these people together, so that they can minister together as a stronger unit? Monastic orders can accomplish amazing feats of charity, and devote lots of time to translate the Bible into foreign tongues, spread the Word to the world, and help communities. I think they are a great thing, if done correctly. [/quote:aefa7025bc]

Amen. Amen. There is so much to be done to further spread the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God would have practically been dimenished on earth if it wasn't for monastaries. The New Augustinian Order (NAO) will be a &quot;redeeming order.&quot; Just like ancient monastic orders, we plan to 'redeem the truth' and take it into the world.

NOTE: if the kingdom of God is fully established there would be NO need for monastaries. And if the church is rightly established in a given area, I don't see the need for them.

But yes! think of the work we can do in third world countries and the such!! 

(for the parts of the world I am looking into): I am currently looking into castle architecture. We need fortification so that we don't get killed off. My uncle is a missionary in Africa, and he has 20 military agents with machine guns guarding his house night and day. We have been given all nations to disciple and this is a great way to take the kingdom by force without being violent.

About eunuchs: Jesus said that people can become eunuchs in different ways. By birth. By man. Or by himself. He said that not all understand this. But for those who do, it is a gift. 

I think I am going to start a webpage for the NAO...

Rembrandt


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## Puritan Sailor (May 16, 2004)

[quote:8f4fcb8256][i:8f4fcb8256]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:8f4fcb8256]

(for the parts of the world I am looking into): I am currently looking into castle architecture. We need fortification so that we don't get killed off. My uncle is a missionary in Africa, and he has 20 military agents with machine guns guarding his house night and day. We have been given all nations to disciple and this is a great way to take the kingdom by force without being violent.
[/quote:8f4fcb8256]

Armed gaurds???? 
You western imperialist dogs! At least that's what they will think of you. That will more than likely shut the doors to the gospel. 

The apostles and evangelists of the early church did not spread the gospel in this fashion. They went and preached, and the Word drew out believers to form the congregations. They didn't need a monastary to set up camp. You seem to have a low view of the church and the power of preaching but perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you.


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## sailorswife (May 16, 2004)

[quote:64546b5e7f][i:64546b5e7f]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:64546b5e7f]
And of course this would be at a nice location. For instance, a castle in Europe. They are actually pretty cheap and can be useful for daily living. In fact, I was thinking about buying one myself, or atleast renting one. (check the prices on em' some time, it is amazing.)
[/quote:64546b5e7f]

Hope you have lots of $$$, they might be cheap to rent but they aren't cheap to heat. I went to a bible school for a short time in a 19th century mansion in northern England, boy we were always cold! 

Anne


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## rembrandt (May 16, 2004)

[quote:bd6ccfa862]Armed gaurds???? 
You western imperialist dogs! At least that's what they will think of you. That will more than likely shut the doors to the gospel. [/quote:bd6ccfa862]

dogs? um, in this part of Africa you would be dead if you didn't have guards. There was tribal wars literally going on in his back yard. If you went to share the gospel, would you like to get killed the first day you were there?

[quote:bd6ccfa862]You seem to have a low view of the church and the power of preaching but perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you. [/quote:bd6ccfa862]

Yes I think you are misunderstanding. I believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. But if we can't stay long enough to spread the gospel, how could they hear? How does this indicate that I have a low view of the church? I believe that the church has the right to go into any area of the world whether the nation likes it or not. We have been given all nations to disciple. And only us preaching the gospel will transform them.

[quote:bd6ccfa862]The apostles and evangelists of the early church did not spread the gospel in this fashion. They went and preached, and the Word drew out believers to form the congregations. They didn't need a monastary to set up camp.[/quote:bd6ccfa862]

What I am saying is that we MUST live in the area that we are evangelizing. Having a &quot;house-base&quot; is a MUST. MOST missions in other countries have a &quot;base&quot; in some way or another. Why not make this a place of study where men can live in devotion to the things of God and being completely concentrated on the task at hand?

I think ya'll are just against the word &quot;monastary.&quot; The concept is perfectly Christian. Let me ask this, are missionaries not fulfilling the great comission because they have left their local church? No, they are furthering the kingdom of God. Same here. No different. Ya'll just have a Roman conception of what monastaries are. I am Reformed, so I have reformed the idea, for the simple fact that it can be useful to spread the gospel.

Rembrandt


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## rembrandt (May 16, 2004)

[quote:92ebe03166][i:92ebe03166]Originally posted by sailorswife[/i:92ebe03166]
Hope you have lots of $$$, they might be cheap to rent but they aren't cheap to heat. I went to a bible school for a short time in a 19th century mansion in northern England, boy we were always cold![/quote:92ebe03166]

I wasn't necessarily being serious about the castles in Europe. I was just using that as a starting place as to what the center might look like wherever we choose to go. Also, I was figuring that since we would put quite a bit of money into the library and mission supplies, that it could easily be robbed (so fortification is necessary in that sense).

I only brought up castles because I began looking at some the other day to get an idea of what was going on in the mediaeval period. I would like to rent or buy one for a while though... to get away for awhile for studies... solitude is not bad for a season. I could give several examples of this from the OT and NT.

Rembrandt

P.S, let me clarify so no one is confused as to my idea. [b:92ebe03166]It would serve a joint purpose of personal growth, study (especially study), and missionary work.[/b:92ebe03166]


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