# Is it a sin to pray privately during public prayer (read description before voting)



## Romans922 (Jan 9, 2009)

Is it a sin to pray privately *during corporate prayer* (like pastoral prayer)?

Sorry if the options above are hard to understand (only allowed 100 characters). Feel free to discuss Biblical foundations, principles, etc.

There are different options here:

1) Praying private prayers (Type A) different than what the elder is praying (e.g. elder is praying for sick people, you are praying for revival, government, or yourself)?

2) Praying privately (Type B) along with the subject of what the elder is praying (e.g. elder is praying for the sick of the congregation, leaves someone out, you pray for that person..."and be with John Doe too.")

3) Praying Type A prayers are sinful, Type B is not

4) Praying Type B prayers are sinful, Type A is not

5) Praying Private prayers during corporate prayer is sin in all circumstances

6) Other (I don't know, etc.)


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## Tripel (Jan 9, 2009)

1) Absolutely not
2) I don't think so. I think it's hard to argue that praying at any point during a worship service is a sin. Perhaps something is weighing heavy on your heart. It's perfectly fine to take that before the Lord. It's not like we're talking about daydreaming during prayer...something I've NEVER done.


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## fredtgreco (Jan 9, 2009)

Tripel said:


> 1) Absolutely not
> 2) I don't think so. I think it's hard to argue that praying at any point during a worship service is a sin. Perhaps something is weighing heavy on your heart. It's perfectly fine to take that before the Lord. It's not like we're talking about daydreaming during prayer...something I've NEVER done.



I think the OP is a good question. In the (1) instance I think it is fine. But (2) is a purposefully corporate event. We have a time of private silent confession/prayer in our service that is not a pastoral prayer time.

I don't think it depends on "praying being always good." Would it be right to sing anoter song whilst others are singing the corporate hymn?


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## Romans922 (Jan 9, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Absolutely not
> ...



This is what I was getting at Fred. It seems to me that on the Principles of Scripture (maybe even using the end of Acts 4, when the Apostles prayed in one accord), that we gather *together* on the Lord's Day, we read Scripture *together*, the word is preached *together* (one preaches, all listen, no one else is preaching), we partake of the sacraments *together *(we even wait for each other to partake of the Lord's Supper), we sing *together* (no one singing their own songs).

Should we then when praying together, pray privately, even praying for the sick, while the elder is praying for someone who is sick, and they don't mention the person we are thinking of, or should we wait until after public worship to lift that person up? I think it was Christopher Love who said something like, one of Satan's temptations is wanting us to think that we are doing something spiritual, when we ought to be doing another spiritual thing. (something like that...? sorry for the paraphrase).


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## Tripel (Jan 9, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> ... But (2) is a purposefully corporate event. We have a time of private silent confession/prayer in our service that is not a pastoral prayer time.
> 
> I don't think it depends on "praying being always good." Would it be right to sing anoter song whilst others are singing the corporate hymn?



If someone feels the need to stop and pray, I think it is perfectly fine to seize the moment. While I agree about the purpose of a corporate prayer, the entire service is corporate in a sense. Praying about something different during the corporate prayer seems to me to be the same as stopping to pray during the middle of the sermon. Sure, that's not what that time is meant for, but I think it's acceptable before the Lord.


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## fredtgreco (Jan 9, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Tripel said:
> ...



I think we have generally lost the sense that when there is a corporate prayer, we all are and should be praying. Not just listening to the pastor. That is why it is an excellent practice to end the prayer with a corporate "Amen."

Because it is so little known today, I usually conclude my prayers: _"In Jesus name we pray, and all God's people said..."_

Sin may be too strong a word, but think it is very inadvisable to go off in a million directions during corporate prayer.


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## Romans922 (Jan 9, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Sin may be too strong a word, but think it is very inadvisable to go off in a million directions during corporate prayer.



Sorry I can be pretty black and white.


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## Tripel (Jan 9, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> (no one singing their own songs).



Singing your own songs is different, mainly because it distracts those around. 

I generally don't like discussions on "Is it sinful to..." because they so often focus on the act itself and not the heart. I think the heart is the key in this situation. 
If I'm singing a different hymn than the congregation, it is probably because I didn't like the hymn that was chosen. Or maybe I just want to be different. Those are matters of the heart. If I'm praying my own little prayer because I don't think the pastor does a good enough job, then again, a matter of the heart.

It's not about the act of praying during whatever part of the service. It's the attitude and motivation behind it.


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## Wannabee (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't think we can blanket this. It's a matter of the heart. I always pray privately when someone else is praying. They might pray for George's salvation, and I'll pray for his sister's as well. Someone might pray for physical healing and I'll pray for spiritual growth. And, they might be praying for guidance in choosing the right color for new curtains, while I pray that we would die to ourselves and live for Christ. Some of us think faster than others and can pray a myriad of prayers interwoven with whoever's leading. I've even prayed for the person praying, while they were praying. Of course, I have often prayed for the preacher while he's preaching too.... especially when I'm preaching. 
If one prays different for prideful or selfish reasons, then it's sin, regardless of whether or not someone else is praying. But varying our prayer during a corporate time of prayer isn't interrupting or distracting, or necessarily disrespectful. It can be complementary. I would submit that perspectives that differ on this would be more for philosophical/social reasons than based on any biblical grounds.


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## Augusta (Jan 9, 2009)

I would have thought it impertinent at any time because we are supposed to pray as one during a corporate prayer. I don't know if I would go as far a sin though. 

I have actually done it very recently only because I have a vestibular condition that leaves me almost deaf to speech and so I have had a hard time hearing sermons and prayers. When I couldn't hear the prayer at all I would pray my own prayer. 

Now I sit right up front and have to keep my eyes open and lip read to know what it being said. I think of this as an extraordinary situation. Maybe though I shouldn't do it just knowing that the Spirit that is in me is in one accord even if I can't hear it and just sit silently. Any help would be appreciated for my situation.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 9, 2009)

Augusta said:


> I have had a hard time hearing sermons and prayers. When I couldn't hear the prayer at all I would pray my own prayer.
> 
> Now I sit right up front and have to keep my eyes open and lip read to know what it being said. I think of this as an extraordinary situation. Maybe though I shouldn't do it just knowing that the Spirit that is in me is in one accord even if I can't hear it and just sit silently. Any help would be appreciated for my situation.



While my hearing loss is not as severe as yours, I have lip read in situations like this as well and/or prayed on my own.

I also find that even when I can hear the corporate prayer, I need to mentally repeat/elaborate on the prayer to prevent myself from wandering.


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## Tripel (Jan 9, 2009)

Augusta said:


> ... I have a vestibular condition that leaves me almost deaf to speech and so I have had a hard time hearing sermons and prayers.



Does your church not offer any sort of hearing assistance? It might be a wise investment for them to get headphone devices for the hearing impaired.


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## Rich Koster (Jan 9, 2009)

In my humble opinion God is the target audience of someone who is praying, not those who are in earshot. Therefore as long as someone is not being distractive they are not sinning (putting this under the everything should be done orderly clause). When we hear someone else praying we can join them or give the amen, but if we are prompted by the Spirit to pray something different, how can that be sin?


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## satz (Jan 9, 2009)

Sometimes during corporate prayer I have been reminded or convicted, of something I needed to repent of before God. I do not think - although I am open to correction - this would necessarily be wrong, after all, it is better to repent, first before contiuning with the congregation in worship.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 9, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Does your church not offer any sort of hearing assistance? It might be a wise investment for them to get headphone devices for the hearing impaired.



I don't know about Augusta's loss, but amplification simply makes mine worse--it increases background noise while not improving clarity. I don't wear hearing aids for the same reason (plus insurance doesn't cover them).


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## lynnie (Jan 9, 2009)

If you want to improve corporate prayer, get all the babies and talky little kids out first 

( mother of five, I like kids, and I get annoyed with them less easily than many people but I've been in services where nobody can concentrate. The worst was a covenant kids church I visited and fussy kids were in the whole time. I was ready to strangle some parents which probably didn't help with my prayers.)


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## Tripel (Jan 9, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> I don't know about Augusta's loss, but amplification simply makes mine worse--it increases background noise while not improving clarity. I don't wear hearing aids for the same reason (plus insurance doesn't cover them).



We use devices that pick up the feed from the microphone, so it's not amplifying any other sounds.


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## PresbyDane (Jan 9, 2009)

I voted other


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## CalvinandHodges (Jan 9, 2009)

Hi:

I think the key here is *corporate* prayer. You should be praying along with the one who is publically praying.

If he is praying for a specifically sick person, then you should not be praying for some other sick person.

The idea is that the whole congregation is of one mind in the corporate prayer. If your mind is on something else, then you are not really participating in that particular aspect of worship.

Blessings,

Rob


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## Romans922 (Jan 9, 2009)

Any Scripture or Biblical Principles to back up what anyone is saying? I did mention Acts 4:

23 And being let go, they went to their own _companions_ and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, *they raised their voice to God with one accord* and said: “Lord, You _are_ God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: _‘ Why did the nations rage,_ _And the people plot vain things?_ 26 _The kings of the earth took their stand,__ And the rulers were gathered together_ _Against the LORD and against His Christ.’ _27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

It's obvious that not all the people prayed out loud at the same time the exact same thing. One person prayed while everyone else prayed with him in silence. But they prayed of one accord.


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## he beholds (Jan 9, 2009)

I remember the first time I went to a Reformed Church (it was RPCNA). The Pastor, Bruce Backensto, had such lovely, but lengthy, prayers that I had to repeat them word-for-word in order to stay with him. I remember thinking that someone should surely transcribe his prayers and put them into a book.




lynnie said:


> If you want to improve corporate prayer, get all the babies and talky little kids out first
> 
> ( mother of five, I like kids, and I get annoyed with them less easily than many people but I've been in services where nobody can concentrate. The worst was a covenant kids church I visited and fussy kids were in the whole time. I was ready to strangle some parents which probably didn't help with my prayers.)



I don't know how serious you're being, but I disagree with your solution. Though, I agree with one part of the problem: noisy kids _can_ be a distraction. 
However, Getting them out of church is not the answer! I was listening to a Beeke sermon yesterday, and he said, "...I thought certainly every father had taught his family that when the minister or the elders and deacons come out to pray, the whole congregation prays. Even if you are a three year old, you fold your hands, you close your eyes and you pray for blessing on the sermon...But that's the responsibility of you as parents to teach your children to pray for a blessing upon the sermon..."
The sermon is entitled "Teaching Children to Listen"


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## Zeno333 (Jan 9, 2009)

he beholds said:


> I remember the first time I went to a Reformed Church (it was RPCNA). The Pastor, Bruce Backensto, had such lovely, but lengthy, prayers that I had to repeat them word-for-word in order to stay with him. I remember thinking that someone should surely transcribe his prayers and put them into a book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We were just talking about baby "bawl" rooms in churches last night...the more modern churches have the separate rooms to put the babies in potentially, but much older churches, like the one I went to as a kid that was built in 1905, did not have any such room, and still does not have such a room...so we started thinking about the merits of having your kids, crying and all, in the main pews with everyone else, that apparently was the general practice in the distant past. (My avatar here is the 1905 church that I speak of, First Presbyterian of Pittsburgh.)


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## lynnie (Jan 9, 2009)

I was kidding, but it can be bad. When mine were that age and we said to be quiet and stop talking, they were quiet, but that was in the day when you got a few whacks with the wooden spoon at home if you didn't obey. 

My second boy was two and in toilet training, and one Sunday he jumped up and ripped his pants down to his ankles and said "I have to pee" and started waddling back the aisle. The whole church was laughing and it definitely interrupted the worship! Kids are great but they sure can distract.


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## he beholds (Jan 10, 2009)

lynnie said:


> I was kidding, but it can be bad. When mine were that age and we said to be quiet and stop talking, they were quiet, but that was in the day when you got a few whacks with the wooden spoon at home if you didn't obey.
> 
> My second boy was two and in toilet training, and one Sunday he jumped up and ripped his pants down to his ankles and said "I have to pee" and started waddling back the aisle. The whole church was laughing and it definitely interrupted the worship! Kids are great but they sure can distract.



I think today it's plastic spoons in the back of the church.


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## Rangerus (Jan 10, 2009)

I think this is a thought provoking topic. First of all, I don't think it is a sin as much as a question of right or wrong. I don't think it is ever a sin to pray. 

I think the subject touches on soul competency, religious liberty and free will as referenced in the LBCF 1689 Chapter IX, (_God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil._)

Romans922 makes a strong case for Acts:4, which I think agrees with LCBF XXVII Communion of the Saints. 

Although we are bound to maintain a holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, we are also united to Jesus Christ. Therefore, our prayers are good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior regardless whether they are corporate or private.


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## Grafted In (Jan 10, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Any Scripture or Biblical Principles to back up what anyone is saying? I did mention Acts 4:
> 
> 23 And being let go, they went to their own _companions_ and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, *they raised their voice to God with one accord* and said: “Lord, You _are_ God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: _‘ Why did the nations rage,_ _And the people plot vain things?_ 26 _The kings of the earth took their stand,__ And the rulers were gathered together_ _Against the LORD and against His Christ.’ _27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
> 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
> ...



This is a wonderful description of the unity of God's people gathered together in intercessory prayer! 

Is it safe to infer from this passage principles that *ought, should or must* be practiced by the church?

Perhaps we would be able to come to a theology of public prayer as we consider the role of elders as undershepherds (Acts 20; 1 Peter 5) and as those who keep watch over our souls (Heb. 13:17). 

Given the responsibilities that are bestowed to elders, is it not prudent that the congregation listen to the prayers that are being offered on their behalf if not for any other reason than to hear how those ordained by God are being used by God to care for their souls, both through preaching the Word and intercessory prayer?

I am really intrigued by this question. Thank you for asking it!


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## Augusta (Jan 11, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Does your church not offer any sort of hearing assistance? It might be a wise investment for them to get headphone devices for the hearing impaired.
> ...



Exactly, my type of hearing loss is not help by increasing the volume. It is akin to turning up the volume on a radio station that is not tuned in, it just makes it worse. I have a hearing aid but when I am having loud tinnitus and inner ear fulness, nothing helps me hear better sadly.  

I have a hearing aid but it is not the traditional type, it is bone anchored. Even it doesn't help when I am having bad symptoms.


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