# Visions, miracles, apparitions, etc. in the history of the church



## wturri78 (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm wondering what we're to make of the many claims by people (many of them influential in history, like church fathers, famous bishops, etc.) to have witnessed visions; seen apparitions of Jesus, Mary, saints, etc.; been miraculously cured by prayer, relics, holy water, pilgrimages, etc.; or even physically wrestled with Satan? What about things like "stigmata" in the Catholic church? Especially, what are we to make of things like apparitions of Mary at Fatima, Guadalupe, etc. that were claimed to have been witnessed by enormous crowds of people? 

Almost all of it sounds like superstition to me, yet many base their faith more on this or that saint's visions than on anything scriptural, or even on anything officially taught by their church. Are these just occurrences within folk theology? Would we explain them as possible deceptions of the devil? Were they hallucinating? Did they perhaps really see something and the stories grew, or did people just make these things up to get attention? 

I started thinking about this after talking to someone who is absolutely enamored with "Padre Pio" who is widely believed (among Catholics) to have had the stigmata in his body, and to have sustained wounds, bruises, and broken bones through physical combat with the Devil. 

It's really quite surprising to see how much impact has been made in church history by visions, dreams, miracles and the like.


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## wturri78 (Aug 30, 2008)

Helloooooooooooooo...any takers? 

BUMP!


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## TaylorOtwell (Aug 30, 2008)

Is the assumption that somehow bearing these physical sufferings will subdue the righteous wrath of God against their souls? Perhaps it could be a good opportunity to talk about who really bore the wrath of God for the souls of his people, and whose sufferings make the "stigmata" pale in comparison. The idolatry of the stigmata seems to give some kind of virtue to having physical affliction, and that our Lord's wrath is somehow satisfied by some small wounds on the hands and feet. 

I read reading in John 17 this morning and noticed this verse:

_*I have given them thy word*; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world._ -- John 17:14

Notice the emphasis of what our Lord gave to his people. The words of God. When people turn from the written word and enter into exta-Biblical revelation, their souls are in grave danger.

These verses probably may have a slightly different context, but I think there are some principles to gather here: 

_And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness._ -- 2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12

_Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God._ -- Colossians 2:18-19

_These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh._ -- Colossians 2:23

So, I would say they could have really seen something. The fearful thing is, God could be giving them over into their own sin and superstition.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 30, 2008)

This is a good read on the subject:

Counterfeit Miracles - Google Book Search


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## Ivan (Aug 30, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> This is a good read on the subject:
> 
> Counterfeit Miracles - Google Book Search






> "The Thomas Smyth lectures for 1917-1918, delivered at the Columbia theological seminary, Columbia, South Carolina, October 4-10, 1917."



Interesting. Azusa Street had happened a little more than a decade before these lectures. I would assume that Warfield was speaking to the event.


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## jaybird0827 (Aug 30, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> This is a good read on the subject:
> 
> Counterfeit Miracles - Google Book Search


 


I just read this book a couple of weeks ago. In light of all the claims by papists, charismaniacs and others, I consider this work a must read, In my humble opinion.


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