# Ray Sutton



## SmokingFlax (Feb 28, 2005)

What is the story with this guy? ...can anyone fill me in? Is he legit?

I recently read an interesting article by him (about covenants) and want to know more.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 28, 2005)

He came out of the Reconstructionist church in Tyler, Texas that included Gary North, David Chilton and others, I believe. 

That church, however, went from Presbyterian to Reformed Episcopal. Pastor Ray Sutton -- the last time I checked -- is now Bishop Ray Sutton, Rector at the Church of the Holy Communion, Dallas, Texas and Suffragan Bishop of the Diocese of Mid-America.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 28, 2005)

He has a good book, _Who owns the Family: God or the State_? I coulnd't say anything else by him.


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 28, 2005)

anyone read David Chilton, "Days of Vengeance", is it good?


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## SmokingFlax (Feb 28, 2005)

Yes...

I found some of his stuff through the Tyler group and I had heard that he switched into the Episcopal church. 

I really liked some of his observations about covenant theology (as opposed to the individualism in Baptist theology) and found his article in The Failure of American Baptist Culture to be pretty helpful in explaining the differences between the two.

I guess I'm just wary about any heresy that he may be advocating and I don't want to get snared.


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## SmokingFlax (Feb 28, 2005)

I've read Chilton's book. 

I thought it was really good...especially coming from a Dispensational background as I have. There is a criticism of Days of Vengeance that Bahnsen wrote that you ought to read before you go through it though...unfortunately I don't know where to access it. 

Do a Google!


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> I've read Chilton's book.
> 
> I thought it was really good...especially coming from a Dispensational background as I have. There is a criticism of Days of Vengeance that Bahnsen wrote that you ought to read before you go through it though...unfortunately I don't know where to access it.
> ...



My wife and I had the privilege once of having dinner with Dr. Bahnsen. In the course of the conversation I mentioned that I was teaching a bible study on Revelation. He asked what resources I was using, and I answered with a list of books including DoV.

Needless to say he was very kind and positive in the remarks that followed. It was after that that I heard of this critique of DoV.



> Interview with Dr. Greg Bahnsen
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



According to Bahnsen I think Chilton, James Jordan, and Ray Sutton would fall into the category of "hermeneutical maximalists".


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## Scott (Feb 28, 2005)

Bahnsen never had a strong suit in typology. His series on Hebrews is fairly weak and he comes accross (to me at least) as pretty uncomfortable with the way the author of Hebrews used Old Testament texts. So, it should not be surprising that he is skeptical of typological interpretations. That said, his Exiting and Leaving the church series has a good discussion of how the lists of people in Numbers is typological of church rolls and the rolls of heaven.


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## SmokingFlax (Feb 28, 2005)

Quote:

"Bahnsen never had a strong suit in typology."

Hmmmmm this makes sense (with Bahnsen). 
It also makes sense for me -being the artsy type guy that I happen to be. I find typology to be totally fascinating ...which would explain my affinity for Chilton's book and so much of Pink's writing (that points out lots of types, etc.) as well as certain other Dispensationalists in the past who did likewise.

Can anyone recommend a definitive reformed text on typology...other than the New Testament...? Patrick Fairburn's book on prophecy deals with this does it not?


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Feb 28, 2005)

His book, _That You May Prosper_, is a must read if you're gonna touch Chilton's _The Days of Vengence_.


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## Denny (Sep 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> What is the story with this guy? ...can anyone fill me in? Is he legit?
> 
> I recently read an interesting article by him (about covenants) and want to know more.



My wife and I have visited the Church that he is now rector of several times, It is too far of a drive for us to join. A very good friend of mine,who is now a Priest,and a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary,was ordained in the church,there are other DTS graduates who will be coming out of this same church as Priests. I think Bishop Sutton is a DTS graduate as well,a very sharp guy though.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Denny]


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## BrianBowman (Sep 7, 2005)

Content deleted to reduce confusion.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## RamistThomist (Sep 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> Quote:
> 
> "Bahnsen never had a strong suit in typology."
> ...



Ditto, while wary of the excesses of typology, I have to admit that my mind moves along those lines. However, I think the hermeneutical principles of Jordan, Chilton are different from others today who practice chiasm, typology. In other words, I think some are moving in more sound paths than a few decades ago.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 7, 2005)

Edited--I for one would want to be sure that anyone who was an officer in the defunct ARC of Tyler Texas had repudiated its unjust excommunications before trusting them with my soul.
Tyler ARC

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by NaphtaliPress]


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## SmokingFlax (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:

"...different from others today who practice chiasm, typology. In other words, I think some are moving in more sound paths than a few decades ago. "

Jacob,

Who are some of these others that you allude to? 

What is "chiasm"? Do you mean chiliasm?

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by SmokingFlax]


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 7, 2005)

Moderating.

People,
We need to be very careful in how we speak of and treat others who are not here to defend themselves. We are dragging more and more people into this thread, named and unnamed.

Stop it now.


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## Peter (Sep 7, 2005)

Did I say something wrong? I posted a link to an article by an authority in Reformed theology, that was the title of the article.


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 8, 2005)

Moderator's answer:

If they care, they can get the link off the Blue Banner site, since you referenced it from there, although it was a different homesite. That newsletter was a truncated transcript of yet another person's work, one in which names are avoided, and innuendo abounds. The "reformed theology authority" cited does not have a reputation for balance or even-handedness. So what if every word is true? This isn't a gossip site. Maybe not a single reference is to Sutton, but it's clear he's being tarred with the brush in this thread. That makes the PB look bad, and it's my job to make sure that doesn't happen.

The BluBan site rarticle eferences mainly yet another person, not Sutton. How do _you_ know if Sutton was even partly to blame for these occurrences between one and two decades ago. Maybe he was caught up in it. Maybe he is guilty by association. Point is, *no-one here knows squat*. And there is ZERO documentation that implicates him in anything linked, present or deleted. His last name is mentioned ONE time, as a defendant.

So whether he was at some church, in leadership, 10-20+ years ago when some ugly stuff may have happened, and all kinds of water has passed under that bridge, _this PB is not going to be party to perpetuating the matter._ I don't know Sutton. I can't say if I've ever read a word he's written. So don't think this is some favoritism. I care about the honor and integrity of this board.


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## Peter (Sep 8, 2005)

> The BluBan site rarticle eferences mainly yet another person, not Sutton. How do you know if Sutton was even partly to blame for these occurrences between one and two decades ago. Maybe he was caught up in it. Maybe he is guilty by association. Point is, no-one here knows squat. And there is ZERO documentation that implicates him in anything linked, present or deleted. His last name is mentioned ONE time, as a defendant.



That's why I posted a _link to an article_ by someone with first hand experience, Chilton, at the church a Tyler. I'm not saying anything against Sutton, or Tyler (the names of the Elders aren't even mentioned in the article I posted), let the testimony of Chilton speak for itself.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> Quote:
> 
> "...different from others today who practice chiasm, typology. In other words, I think some are moving in more sound paths than a few decades ago. "
> ...



Although he is persona non-gratis, Peter Leithart's works on the OT (House for My Name and A Son to me {Neither deal with what we call Federal Vision issues, yea, even Tremper Longman HIGHLY endorses teh first one}). They are masterful exercises in sane, balanced typological interpretation. There are a few others that I have read on this that I might go into on another thread.

Chiasm (not chiliasm); is a literary device that goes like this (Simplistic illustartion)

A. God creates a Garden to Commune with Man (Genesis 1)

--------B. Fall, promised Redemption, and the Coming of a New City.

A' God creates a garden-city and is in perfect communion with man once again (revelation 21-22).

Chiasm comes from the Greek Word Chi, which would look like an X if fully developed. Ancient Man employed the use of Chiasm. There is much more to it.


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## py3ak (Sep 8, 2005)

Fairbairn actually has a whole book devoted to typology --two volumes reprinted in 1 (so you have to be careful of the appendices and indices) by Kregel. It is readily available, and highly recommended.


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