# prayer to saints



## Scott (Sep 19, 2005)

I occasionally hear Catholic apologists defend prayers to saints by analogizing them to simply asking friends to pray for us. This sounds benign as far as it goes, but in Catholic theology at least, this seems to omit a substantial reason for praying to saints, namely that these saints offer their merits in intercession. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (ellipses in original):

956: The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."

And I don't think that this is a general view that God listens to the righteous. Rather, it seems to me that 956 is connected to the idea that in heaven there is a treasury of merits, filled with the merits of Christ, Mary, and the saints. See CCC 1476-1477.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88 
1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."89

Now, one theological justification for prayer to saints is that they proffer their merits. I think this is a obviously big problem and should be raised when discussin the issue with Catholic who try and frame the issue as "can't we just ask others to pray for us?"

Scott 

BTW: Did anyone see the Luther movie a couple of years ago (if not, get it on DVD - it is awesome)? One of Tetzel's sales pitches use language that sounded almost like a quote from 1476-77.

[Edited on 9-19-2005 by Scott]


----------



## rgrove (Sep 19, 2005)

Good point. I hadn't made that connection before and it raises the bar on their argument a lot higher. I've always tended to argue against the ability of people in heaven being able to hear prayers given by people in order to be able to intercede in the first place, but I like this even better. The Catholic has to defend the Treasury of Merit which is much more difficult in my opinion to defend than what I've been doing. I'll have to investigate it further myself then. Thanks.


----------



## DTK (Sep 19, 2005)

A study of the ECFs regarding this question is a fascinating one, particularly as one peruses the extant writings of Augustine and Chrysostom. I think that the invocation of the saints in prayer involves implicitly the question regarding the omnipresence of mere creatures. This, as well as the question of merit, is what I have often raised in contention with Roman apologists.

Blessings,
DTK


----------



## Scott (Sep 19, 2005)

I agree with both of you. There are allot of grounds to examine this practice on. The common failure of Catholics to mention the treasury of merits should undermine their credibility in presenting the official Catholic position accurately. Going to someone (dead or alive) b/c you believe that they can use their merits to intercede on your behalf is different from going to a righteous friend to ask for prayer. 

David: What have you found in the ECFs? I am not familiar with how the practice arose. I will note that the early prayers I have seen (and I have read a number for devotional reasons) do not mention the saints. Whereas in the later middle ages the saints seem to dominate and eclipse other.


----------



## DTK (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> David: What have you found in the ECFs? I am not familiar with how the practice arose. I will note that the early prayers I have seen (and I have read a number for devotional reasons) do not mention the saints. Whereas in the later middle ages the saints seem to dominate and eclipse other.


Scott,

Early on, particularly with Augustine and Chrysostom, they denied any need for any other mediator than Christ in prayer. Others suggested, in a context apart from prayer, that we are not helped by the merits of others. I have a running file of quotes, and will post them as a sampling if you would like to see some of these expressions on the matter.

Blessings,
DTK


----------



## Scott (Sep 19, 2005)

That would be helpful. Thanks


----------



## DTK (Sep 19, 2005)

Scott,

Here are some examples...

*Augustine (354-430):* But many ask for what they ought not to ask, not knowing what is expedient for them. *Two things therefore must he that prays beware of; that he ask not what he ought not; and that he ask not from whom he ought not. From the devil, from idols, from evil spirits, must nothing be asked. From the Lord our God Jesus Christ, God the Father of Prophets, and Apostles, and Martyrs, from the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from God who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all things in them, from Him must we ask whatsoever we have to ask. But we must beware that we ask not of Him that which we ought not to ask.* If because we ought to ask for life, thou ask it of dumb and deaf idols, what doth it profit thee? So if from God the Father, who is in heaven, thou dost wish for the death of thine enemies, what doth it profit thee? Hast thou not heard or read in the Psalm, in which the damnable end of the traitor Judas is foretold, how the prophecy spake of him "œLet his prayer be turned into sin?" If then thou risest up, and prayest for evil on thine enemies, thy "œprayer will be turned into sin." _NPNF1: Vol. VI, Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament_, Sermon 6, Â§2.

*Augustine (354-430):* For prayer is not righteous except through Christ, whom he [i.e. Judas] sold in his atrocious sin: but the prayer which is not made through Christ, not only cannot blot out sin, but is itself turned into sin. _NPNF1: Vol. VIII, St. Augustin on the Psalms_, Psalm 109, Â§9.

*Augustine (354-430):* Here the very painful thought occurs to me that I should remind you that *Parmenian, who was once a bishop of the Donatists, had the audacity to state in one of his letters that the bishop is the mediator between the people and God. You can see that they are putting themselves forward in the place of the bridegroom; they are corrupting the souls of those others with a sacrilegious adultery.* This is no mean case of presumption, one that would strike me as totally incredible had I not read it. *You see, if the bishop is the mediator between the people and God, it follows that we must take it there are many mediators, since there are many bishops.* So then, in order to read the letter of Parmenian, let us censor the letter of the apostle Paul where he says, For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tm 2:5). But between whom is he the mediator, if not between God and his people? So between God and his body, because the Church is his body. Truly monstrous, therefore, is that pride which has the audacity to set up the bishop as mediator, guilty of the adulterous fallacy of claiming for itself the marriage of Christ. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.52 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 220.

And then as *Augustine* went one to say a little later in the same sermon: And that is what these people are neither afraid nor ashamed to say, that the bishop is a mediator between God and men. Sure, that man is a mediator, but in the party of Donatus, to block the way, not to lead the way, as Donatus himself did; he introduced his own name, you see, to close off the road to Christ. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.55 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 222.

*Augustine (354-430):* So the good slave, as I said, who is already to be called a son, doesn´t wish himself, but his master to be venerated. Think a little, brothers and sisters, and recall what you attend every day; what does truth teach you in church? *The faithful know in what style the martyrs are commemorated in the mysteries, when our wishes and prayers are addressed to God.* John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.12 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 190.

*Augustine (354-430):* Because Paul and Barnabas were working miracles in Christ, because they had exceeded merely human limits, the pagans according to their wont called Barnabas Jupiter and Paul Mercury, because he was the readier talker, and they had already started to dedicate victims to them. They were so horrified by this honor that they tore their clothes and tried to teach them, as best they could, who alone was to be venerated, the one by whose power they were doing these things. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.13 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 193.

*Augustine (354-430):* He (God), I mean, has no need of worshipers; you, though, do need him worshiped. I said to the Lord, says the prophet, my God you are, because you have no need of my good things (Ps 16:2). So if He alone can without pride demand to be worshiped, anyone else who demands this and arrogates to himself the right to be worshiped as his own personal and proper due, *who is not satisfied with being venerated in the one who created him, is demanding this out of pride*. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.22 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 197.

*Augustine (354-430):* So if the reason he´s worshiped is that he is a middle something, why is that one not rather worshiped who calls back to himself the wit which you put in the middle, in order to make it break with and turn away from inferior things and unite itself to him? Such is the wit of the saints, the wit of the martyrs, the wit of the angels. Because if wit is such as that angel displayed whom I mentioned, wit enlightened by God, it thrusts away from itself any human veneration, and admonishes the one who would venerate it to venerate God instead. Venerate God, he said, for I too am your fellow slave, and the fellow of your brethren (Rv 19:10; 22:9). John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., _The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons_, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.24 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 198.

*Augustine (354-430):* And those who separate are numerous, because the multitude of the blessed are blessed only by their participation in the one God; of which participation the evil angels being deprived, they are wretched, and interpose to hinder rather than to help to this blessedness, and by their very number prevent us from reaching that one beatific good, to obtain *which we need not many but one Mediator, the uncreated Word of God*, by whom all things were made, and in partaking of whom we are blessed. I do not say that He is Mediator because He is the Word, for as the Word He is supremely blessed and supremely immortal, and therefore far from miserable mortals; but He is Mediator as He is man, for by His humanity He shows us that, in order to obtain that blessed and beatific good, *we need not seek other mediators to lead us through the successive steps of this attainment, but that the blessed and beatific God, having Himself become a partaker of our humanity, has afforded us ready access to the participation of His divinity.* _NPNF1: Vol. II, The City of God_, Book IX, Chapter 15.

*Hilary of Poitiers (c 315-67) commenting on Matthew 25:9:* No one can be aided by the good works or merits of others, because each must buy oil for his own lamp. George Finch, _A Sketch of the Romish Controversy_ (London: G. Norman, 1831), p. 230.
*Latin text:* alienis scilicet operibus ac meritis neminem adjuvandum, quia uniquique lampadi suae emere oleum sit necesse. _Sancti Hilarii In Evangelium Matthaei Commentarius_, Caput XXVII, Â§5, PL 9:1060-1061.

*Chrysostom (349-407):* For things which often we have not strength to perform successfully from our own exertions, these we shall have power to accomplish easily through prayers. I mean prayers which are persevering. For always and without intermission it is a duty to pray, both for him who is in affliction, and him who is in relief from it, and him who is in dangers, and him who is in prosperity "” for him who is in relief and much prosperity, that these may remain unmoved and without vicissitude, and may never change; and for him who is in affliction and his many dangers, that he may see some favorable change brought about to him, and be transported into a calm of consolation. Art thou in a calm? Then beseech God that this calm may continue settled to thee. Hast thou seen a storm risen up against thee? Beseech God earnestly to cause the billow to pass, and to make a calm out of the storm. "œHast thou been heard? Be heartily thankful for this; because thou hast been heard. Hast thou not been heard? Persevere in order that thou mayest be heard. For even if God at any time delay the giving, it is not in hatred and aversion; but from the desire by the deferring of the giving perpetually to retain thee with himself; just in the way also that affectionate fathers do; for they also adroitly manage the perpetual and assiduous attendance of children who are rather indolent by the delay of the giving. *There is to thee no need of mediators in audience with God;* nor of that much canvassing; nor of the fawning upon others; but even if thou be destitute, even if bereft of advocacy, alone, by thyself, having called on God for help, thou wilt in any case succeed. *He is not so wont to assent when entreated by others on our behalf, as by ourselves who are in need; even if we be laden with ten thousand evil deeds.* For if in the case of men, even if we have come into countless collisions with them, when both at dawn and at mid-day and in the evening we show ourselves to those who are aggrieved against us, by the unbroken continuance and the persistent meeting and interview we easily demolish their enmity "” far more in the case of God would this be effected. NPNF1: Vol. IX, Concerning Lowliness of Mind and Commentary on Philippians 1:18, Â§11.

*Chrysostom (349-407) commenting on John 16:22, 23:* "œAnd ye now therefore have sorrow "” [but I will see you again, and your sorrow shall be turned into joy]." Then, to show that He shall die no more, He saith, "œAnd no man taketh it from you. And in that day ye shall ask Me nothing."
Again He proveth nothing else by these words, but that He is from God. "œFor then ye shall for the time to come know all things." But what is, "œYe shall not ask Me"? *"œYe shall need no intercessor, but it is sufficient that ye call on My Name, and so gain all things."* _NPNF1: Vol. XIV, Gospel of St John_, Homily 79, Â§1.

*Chrysostom (349-407):* Therefore let us not seek to hear from dead people what the Scriptures teach us much more clearly every day. For if God knew that dead people by rising could help the living, He who has worked everything out for our good would not have omitted or neglected such a great benefit. Catharine P. Roth, trans., _St. John Chrysostom On Wealth and Poverty_, 4th Sermon on Lazarus and the Rich Man (Crestwood: St. Vladimir´s Seminary Press, 1984), pp. 85-86. See also F. Allen, trans., _Four Discourses of Chrysostom, Chiefly on the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus_, 4th Sermon, Â§3 (London: Longmans, Green, Reader and Dyer, 1869), pp. 97-98.

*Origen (c. 185-c. 254):* Away, then, with this counsel, which Celsus gives us, to offer prayer to demons: it is not to be listened to for a moment; *for our duty is to pray to the Most High God alone, and to the Only-begotten, the First-born of the whole creation, and to ask Him as our High Priest to present the prayers which ascend to Him from us, to His God and our God, to His Father and the Father of those who direct their lives according to His word.* _ANF: Vol. IV, Against Celsus_, Book VIII, Chapter 26.

*Origen (c. 185-c. 254):* In the next place, Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, *who pray to God alone through Jesus;* and mixing up other notions with theirs, he absurdly attributes them all to Christians. "œIf," says he, "œthey who are addressed are called upon by barbarous names, they will have power, but no longer will they have any if they are addressed in Greek or Latin." Let him, then, state plainly whom we call upon for help by barbarous names. Any one will be convinced that this is a false charge which Celsus brings against us, when he considers that Christians in prayer do not even use the precise names which divine Scripture applies to God; but the Greeks use Greek names, the Romans Latin names, and every one prays and sings praises to God as he best can, in his mother tongue. For the Lord of all the languages of the earth hears those who pray to Him in each different tongue, hearing, if I may so say, but one voice, expressing itself in different dialects. For the Most High is not as one of those who select one language, Barbarian or Greek, knowing nothing of any other, and caring nothing for those who speak in other tongues. _ANF: Vol. IV, Against Celsus_, Book VIII, Chapter 37.

*Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Colossians 3:17:* Since those people, remember, ordered the worship of angels, he urges the opposite, that they adorn both their words and their deeds with the memory of Christ the Lord. Offer thanks to the God and Father through him, he is saying, not through the angels. *Following this law and wishing to cure that ancient malady, the synod in Laodicea legislated against praying to angels and passing over our Lord Jesus Christ.* Robert Charles Hill, _Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul_, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 99.

These are some examples I've collated in my research. Now with respect to Origen's testimony regarding any matter, I am relunctant to use him in contention with any Roman apologist because of the double-standard they usually employ with him. In other words, they'll invoke his testimony any time they think he can be cited in favor of a Roman doctrine or practice. But as a Protestant, if you ever use him, their typical response is that he was declared to be a heretic by the church, and therefore his testimony has no value.

Blessings,
DTK


----------



## rgrove (Sep 19, 2005)

Past King,
 
Is this series of quotes in the third book of your series with William Webster? I have it, but it's at home and I'm at work. Just wondering if I should print this list out and add it, or if it might be in the book in a similar format?


----------



## DTK (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rgrove_
> Is this series of quotes in the third book of your series with William Webster? I have it, but it's at home and I'm at work. Just wondering if I should print this list out and add it, or if it might be in the book in a similar format?


Ron,

The answer to your question is no. Vol. 3 of that series only has quotes of the ECFs dealing with the material and formal sufficiency of Holy Scripture.

Blessings,
DTK


----------



## Scott (Sep 19, 2005)

This is another part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that is relevant to the above:

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it. 


As with most Catholic things, it is more complicated than that, and one should read the following paragraphs, but 2006 provides a working definition off which the remaining views are based.


----------



## Scott (Sep 19, 2005)

Thanks, David. That is helpful.


----------



## DTK (Sep 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> This is another part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that is relevant to the above:
> 
> 2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.
> ...


Complicated indeed. In another official Roman Catechism, we are informed that one can _merit_ grace. In other words, the very term "grace," which Protestants define as "unmerited favor" can, according to the following Roman Catechism, be merited...


> *John Hardon´s Catechism Q&A 1096.* What can we merit supernaturally? *We can supernaturally merit for ourselves an increase of sanctifying grace and the infused virtues, actual graces and a title to them, the right to enter heaven if we die in the divine friendship, and an increase of happiness in heaven.* John Hardon, S.J., _The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism_ (New York: Doubleday, 1981), p. 220.
> 
> *John Hardon´s Catechism Q&A 1102.* What is the main purpose of our human freedom?
> The main purpose of our human freedom is to cooperate with the graces that God gives us. *Fidelity to grace gives joy to the heart and merits further grace.* Infidelity to grace has the opposite effect. It discourages the soul and deprives persons of the graces they would have gained had they been faithful to the graces already received. John Hardon, S.J., _The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism_ (New York: Doubleday, 1981), p. 221-222.
> ...


We find the same thing in the New CCC too...


> *CCC 2010:* Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, _no one can merit the initial grace_ of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, _we can then merit_ for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, *and for the attainment of eternal life*. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God´s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. *Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions*. _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ (Collegeville: The Liturgical Press, 1994), #2010, p. 487. See also #2025 & #2027


Yes, Roman Catholics insist that salvation is all of grace, but it is (we contend) a distortion of grace since it has been redefined in such a way as to include works that can merit it, namely works performed in a state of grace.

Blessings,
DTK


----------



## Puritanhead (Sep 20, 2005)

I pray to *St. Gilligan of Cyprus.*


----------



## Scott (Sep 21, 2005)

David: What you posted is consistent with the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on merit. A couple of quotes:




> By merit (meritum) in general is understood that property of a good work which entitles the doer to receive a reward (prÅ“mium, merces) from him in whose service the work is done. By antonomasia, the word has come to designate also the good work itself, in so far as it deserves a reward from the person in whose service it was performed. In the theological sense, a supernatural merit can only be a salutary act (actus salutaris), to which God in consequence of his infallible promise owes a supernatural reward, consisting ultimately in eternal life, which is the beatific vision in heaven.





> Merit in the strict sense (meritum de condigno) gives a right to a threefold reward: increase of sanctifying grace, heavenly glory, and the increase thereof; other graces can be acquired only in virtue of congruous merit (meritum de conqruo).



It is hard to wrap one's mind around the Catholic understanding of grace. Being so used to understanding grace as unmerited favor, to hear one speak of merited grace is like them speaking of a married bachelor.

I suppose the analogy of the CE is helpful. They analogize congruent grace to a tip given to a waiter. The waiter performs a service. The recipient of the service has the discretion to give a tip or not and, if so, what amount. So, in that sense it is a merited grace.


----------

