# What was Luther like as a man?



## Henry from Canada (Nov 16, 2005)

I am terribly ignorant about church history, so please accept my apologies if this post seems offensive.

A Pentecostal person and I were discussing church history a little while ago.

We discussed Foxes' Book of Martyrs and the persecution of reformers in Europe from about 1500 to 1800.

She then made the statement that Reformers themselves had many people killed if they disagreed with Reformed theology.

I was shocked by this statement. 

My knowledge on this issue is limited. I have read that Calvin approved of the slaying of one individual, but even in that case I have read that Calvin pleaded for a more humane execution for the deceased individual.

I also have read that Luther had 'armies' but that was because the king was protecting him and the reformers from the Catholic church.

I have never read anything militaristic concerning Jonathon Edwards, John Knox, etc. I have never read about any 
'mass inquisitions' by Reformers against non-Reformers.

I have read that about a dozen people died in the Puritan witch-burnings in the US, however, I have also read that the principals involved repented for this 4 years later.

On Martin Luther, himself, from what I have read he seems like a person that tried really hard to live a honourable life.

But again my readings of church history are limited.

I realize that these Reformers were very very harsh by modern church standards. I suspect that they would have absolutely scathing criticisms for Robert Schuller, Benny Hinn, etc.

Question 1:
Were Martin Luther, John Calvin basically pacifists?

Question 2:
Did the Reformers, like the Puritans, generally try to flee from persecution rather than fight?


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## Larry Hughes (Nov 17, 2005)

Henry,

I'd get the book "Luther Man Between God and the Devil" by Heiko Obermann. It is excellent in not only speaking about Luther the man, theology surrounding the reformation, but the climate in which ALL of this developed.

They did not "kill" as she so obtusely puts it, it all surrounded faith and much much political issues outside of the Reformers control. We tend to exercise as CS Lewis puts it "chronological snobbery".

Luther even makes the point at Worms that when the Gospel is purely declared unrest is promised to us, Jesus promised it. This is why some people never believe it (the Gospel) as from God, it brings not peace among men but battle, yet it is peace with God.



> I realize that these Reformers were very very harsh by modern church standards. I suspect that they would have absolutely scathing criticisms for Robert Schuller, Benny Hinn, etc.



Scathing would no touch it, these men preach death and a cursed doctrine, they are false teachers and stand condemned. Modern church standards, in general, is packed with hypocrisy. Luther may have been loose with a vulgar word or two, but he proclaimed THE Gospel. Too many pastors today would gasp if Luther (or Spurgeon or Calvin or many many others) preached in their pulpits, but these same preachers fail to declare Christ - we will see who answers for what in heaven on that issue. Paul amply warns on this exact issue.

L

Larry

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Larry Hughes]

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Larry Hughes]


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## Henry from Canada (Nov 17, 2005)

Thanks Larry. Your post comforted me.


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## Scott (Nov 18, 2005)

The Reformers took over the ecclesial machinery and, working in conjunction with the civil magistrates, they supressed dissent to varying degrees. The original Westminister Confession outlines a reformed view of the duties of the civil magistrate relating to keeping the church pure and free from error (which, of course, was determined by those in authority):



> Chapter XXIII
> Of the Civil Magistrate
> III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.



The state, of course, used the sword to bring the church into what the state understood to be purity.

Generally, the reformers opted for a state church model that either forbade or supressed to varying degrees other sects. Sects that were not a part of state churches were called dissenters and were allowed more or less existence and freedom depending on whom was in power at the time.

As for Luther, your friend might be thinking of Luther's response to the Peasant's Revolt. He wrote a tract colorfully called Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants. Anyway, Luther's Reformation sadly destablized the Germanic countries and led to anarchy for a time. In this tract and elsewhere Luther sided with the state powers against the peasants (who were muderous and riotous).

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Scott]


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## Robin (Nov 18, 2005)

[quote
Luther even makes the point at Worms that when the Gospel is purely declared unrest is promised to us, Jesus promised it. This is why some people never believe it (the Gospel) as from God, it brings not peace among men but battle, yet it is peace with God.



> I realize that these Reformers were very very harsh... I suspect that they would have absolutely scathing criticisms for Robert Schuller, Benny Hinn, etc.



Scathing would no touch it, these men preach death and a cursed doctrine, they are false teachers and stand condemned. Modern church standards, in general, is packed with hypocrisy. Luther may have been loose with a vulgar word or two, but he proclaimed THE Gospel. Too many pastors today would gasp if Luther (or Spurgeon or Calvin or many many others) preached in their pulpits, but these same preachers fail to declare Christ - we will see who answers for what in heaven on that issue. Paul amply warns on this exact issue.


Larry

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Larry Hughes] [/quote]

 An understatement, Larry.

May we all take to heart Paul's warnings.

Robin


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