# Psychics/Fortune Tellers



## AnnaBanana (Nov 7, 2017)

I work at the local Library four days out of the week (this is not relevant but just thought I'd give you some background to build up my question, hehe). A girl, I believe she's around my age, started working there a few weeks ago, and she seems very nice/friendly. I have spoken to her about the Lord and she says that she goes to church every once and a while with her boyfriend, but mostly does at home studies.

Yesterday she came in eagerly waiting to tell me what happened earlier that morning. She said that (her dad had passed away last year) she felt it in her heart to go to the psychics across the street from work and she couldn't believe what happened. She walked in, filled out no papers (stating any type of history or questions that the psychic could use) and when the woman started to bring her back she goes "Wow! Did you loose your father last year? I can feel his presence in this room right now". She then began to say things that _only s_he would know (this is all from her mouth) .


Here is my question... I didn't really know what to say? I hope I don't sound to naive and stupid but I really didn't. I do not believe in anything in that sort whatsoever: horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings and I made that absolutely clear to her
but... how can that be explained? Or rather, what could I have said to show that the Bible condemns these types of things? Do psychics get their information from satan?

I tried to do some reading on my own, and I saw this verse:

_When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or *who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead*. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. (Deut 18:9-13)

How would you have responded? 
_


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## Alan D. Strange (Nov 7, 2017)

Anna:

You are in the right place (Deuteronomy). Another place that speaks of the magical arts in the NT is in Acts 8 (Simon Magus). The Bible condemns the use of such, necromancy, and the like. Always. Everywhere.

All such is an attempt to enlist nefarious powers in our service rather than submitting to the divine power in whose service we should be. Did she ask you what you think? If not, you could have said, "may I tell you what I think?" and then have told her what you thought of what she did.

I may have said something like: "this is what is worthy of accepting, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. It is He that we should seek and to Him that we must submit, not the regions of the dead and him who revels in death." If she asked you how the medium knew this, you might tell her that you don't know (it could be a demon, a good guess, figuring that someone her age coming to see her who wasn't manifestly happy might have lost a parent, etc.). There are any number of possibilities. But God said don't do it and that should be enough.

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 3


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## Afterthought (Nov 7, 2017)

For your own knowledge of how it can be explained, look into "cold reading" and run a Google search for various other techniques "psychics" use. Be especially aware that you were not there and only have her remembered and interpreted experience of the event, and also that she was at least somewhat willing to believe (which is what psychics and mentalists exploit) by her actions in going.

However, the moral issue and answer that Dr. Strange presents above is far more important and better (and answers the main question of the OP).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dachaser (Nov 7, 2017)

AnnaBanana said:


> I work at the local Library four days out of the week (this is not relevant but just thought I'd give you some background to build up my question, hehe). A girl, I believe she's around my age, started working there a few weeks ago, and she seems very nice/friendly. I have spoken to her about the Lord and she says that she goes to church every once and a while with her boyfriend, but mostly does at home studies.
> 
> Yesterday she came in eagerly waiting to tell me what happened earlier that morning. She said that (her dad had passed away last year) she felt it in her heart to go to the psychics across the street from work and she couldn't believe what happened. She walked in, filled out no papers (stating any type of history or questions that the psychic could use) and when the woman started to bring her back she goes "Wow! Did you loose your father last year? I can feel his presence in this room right now". She then began to say things that _only s_he would know (this is all from her mouth) .
> 
> ...


We know that the Bible forbids us to get involved with anything like what you described, and would just use the opportunity to share that as a Christian, that you have access to the true Higher Power, Jesus, and the Real Spirit, the Holy Spirit, dwells and lives in you.


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## Jack K (Nov 7, 2017)

I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.

Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.

If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.

Reactions: Like 3 | Amen 1


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## arapahoepark (Nov 7, 2017)

With regard to your friend, have you watched The Mentalist?


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## earl40 (Nov 8, 2017)

The only caveat I would like to add, just for you, is that no demon whispered in her ear that her father died last year. I would qualify my statement with the general understanding that many believe fallen angels (demons) are doing such.


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 8, 2017)

I have always wanted to open up a Psalm reading parlor. 

Sign outside: "Psalms read"
Come in an let me read your Psalm!

Participant: Can u read my palm?
No, I can read a psalm for you! Here, how about Psalm 51?

"1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness:

According unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity,

And cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions:

And my sin _is_ ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,

And done _this_ evil in thy sight:

That thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,

_And_ be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;

And in sin did my mother conceive me."



_The Holy Bible: King James Version_, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 51:1–5.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## RamistThomist (Nov 8, 2017)

My own take:
1) Unlike some disciples of David Hume, I believe the supernatural is real and I don't have to have empirical laboratory evidence in order to verify it (though I probably could marshal it).
2) I shrug off a lot of claims like that. I believe demons are around mediums like that, but unless I am actually talking to the demon in a deliverance ministry, I normally reserve judgment either way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dachaser (Nov 8, 2017)

Jack K said:


> I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.
> 
> Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.
> 
> If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.


She just might be open to having her shared the Gospel now, as Jesus is the ultimate source of the afterlife.


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## Dachaser (Nov 8, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> My own take:
> 1) Unlike some disciples of David Hume, I believe the supernatural is real and I don't have to have empirical laboratory evidence in order to verify it (though I probably could marshal it).
> 2) I shrug off a lot of claims like that. I believe demons are around mediums like that, but unless I am actually talking to the demon in a deliverance ministry, I normally reserve judgment either way.


What is a deliverance ministry?


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Nov 8, 2017)

All the "medium" needed was an accomplice to get something as simple as her car tag number, etc. and google away while whispering into a wireless ear-bud. Mediums have their own information swapping services and dbases. James Randi and others have written lots on how they operate and exposing their tricks and conceits. I agree with others, pray for this friend, and be a godly example.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Dachaser (Nov 8, 2017)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> All the "medium" needed was an accomplice to get something as simple as her car tag number, etc. and google away while whispering into a wireless ear-bud. Mediums have their own information swapping services and dbases. James Randi and others have written lots on how they operate and exposing their tricks and conceits. I agree with others, pray for this friend, and be a godly example.


True, as there was and still is a Larry Popoff, who for years now been milking people out of money by claiming God spoke to him about their needs, while actually they read off info on a card to him by the ear bud.
Most of the psychic/medium stuff is bunk, just done as the mentalist did, but there are few cases where it seems Satanic operation is involved.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 8, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> What is a deliverance ministry?



It is removing demonic presences from people who are being demonized. I am avoiding saying "exorcism" or "demon possession" because those terms have spatial and Roman Catholic connotations that aren't helpful.


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## Dachaser (Nov 8, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> It is removing demonic presences from people who are being demonized. I am avoiding saying "exorcism" or "demon possession" because those terms have spatial and Roman Catholic connotations that aren't helpful.


Christians cannot be demon possessed, so you deal with the unsaved?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 8, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Christians cannot be demon possessed, so you deal with the unsaved?



I specifically said that I am not saying "demon possessed." Demonized is totally different. But yes, these have usually been non-Christian.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 8, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I specifically said that I am not saying "demon possessed." Demonized is totally different. But yes, these have usually been non-Christian.



Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.


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## Ben Zartman (Nov 8, 2017)

^^Ryan, while Justification is a sovereign work of God that happens in a moment (when He declares one righteous), sanctification--the putting away of sin--is a life-long process. One does not immediately (or perfectly) stop sinning in this life. Far better than to torture yourself by wondering whether mum was saved because she had remaining sin is to trust that whatever God did--whether to save her or not, it was right, and it was good. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Hope thou in God, believing that He is the fountain of all good.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 8, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.



Without speaking dogmatically, it seems commonsense from a Christian perspective that we can be attacked by the enemy. Demonization is when these attacks are intensified and when we give the enemy a foothold (which is biblical language). Can believers give the enemy a foothold? Paul seems to think that is possible. 

I don't see that as the same thing as "demon possessed" in the ghostbusters sense of the word.

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## Edm (Nov 8, 2017)

I passed by a building this week in southern Ohio that had a billboard outside advertising a psychic conference and had a number to call to register. I found it humorous and wondered if they had a RSVP.


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## earl40 (Nov 9, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.



Having hope that a loved one is in heaven is found by looking for evidence that they had faith, and not looking at the sin they had in their life. Take for instance my mother and father. They were Roman Catholic and thought as many RC's think on many issues, which grieved me to no end. Though the were such I knew they loved Jesus and ultimately had faith alone in Him for any thing they did while here on earth. I understand this is a tough subject and I am sad for many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, in that they may have had a parent, child, or other loved one pass without Jesus which was obvious. With the unobvious loved one look to Jesus, and realize He is mighty and is able to save wretches like us who trust in Him.

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## OPC'n (Nov 9, 2017)

My first question to her would have been, "what were the questions on the paper you filled out?" That's how the psychic knew she lost her father. They know which questions to ask to trick people into thinking they know unknowable info. It might not be obvious to the untrained person, but they have honed their skills. It's all garbage in reality and it's very sinful to engage in.


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## AnnaBanana (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions, they are very much appreciate. I was being a little bit hard on myself these past few days for not knowing what to say. 

This may also be changing the topic of the thread a little bit but, I see myself sometimes putting so much pressure on trying to say the right thing (while speaking of the Lord) that it makes me shriek with fear that I'll do or say something wrong. I have been praying that I would allow the Holy Spirit to guide my words and actions in these situations, not to mention every situation but these specifically, because I'm always worried about sounding "legalistic" or "holier than thou". Jack K, I bolded what you said below because I think that is where I am at right now with her. I'm listening to her and letting her tell me these things, knowing that she is just as open to me hearing the Gospel and speaking of the Lord. 




Jack K said:


> I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.
> 
> *Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.*
> 
> If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dachaser (Nov 9, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.


IF you mother received Jesus as her lord/Messiah, and accepted that He paid the sin debt in her place, and believed unto Him as being raised up, than per the scriptures she was indeed saved in Him.


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## Dachaser (Nov 9, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Without speaking dogmatically, it seems commonsense from a Christian perspective that we can be attacked by the enemy. Demonization is when these attacks are intensified and when we give the enemy a foothold (which is biblical language). Can believers give the enemy a foothold? Paul seems to think that is possible.
> 
> I don't see that as the same thing as "demon possessed" in the ghostbusters sense of the word.


I agree with you that even Christians can be oppressed by Satanic things, due to them foolishly submitting themselves to the occult, walking in bondage of various kinds etc, but the cure for that would be to have them confess and repent of those sin activities, and claim the promise of the scriptures that he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.


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## Dachaser (Nov 9, 2017)

AnnaBanana said:


> Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions, they are very much appreciate. I was being a little bit hard on myself these past few days for not knowing what to say.
> 
> This may also be changing the topic of the thread a little bit but, I see myself sometimes putting so much pressure on trying to say the right thing (while speaking of the Lord) that it makes me shriek with fear that I'll do or say something wrong. I have been praying that I would allow the Holy Spirit to guide my words and actions in these situations, not to mention every situation but these specifically, because I'm always worried about sounding "legalistic" or "holier than thou". Jack K, I bolded what you said below because I think that is where I am at right now with her. I'm listening to her and letting her tell me these things, knowing that she is just as open to me hearing the Gospel and speaking of the Lord.


Just keep the scriptures foremost, and trust that the Holy Spirit will guide you into what to say and when, for it is the work of the Lord Himself in and through us to make the right things get said at the right time.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 9, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I agree with you that even Christians can be oppressed by Satanic things, due to them foolishly submitting themselves to the occult, walking in bondage of various kinds etc, but the cure for that would be to have them confess and repent of those sin activities, and claim the promise of the scriptures that he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.



No argument there, but psychologically some people have trauma of which they may not always be aware. This is often the case in sexual abuse victims, satanic abuse victims, CIA MK-ULTRA types, and so on. You don't always need a full exorcism to deal with it, but the issues might go beyond "you need to read the bible more."

We agree that Jesus saves sinners, but we also know that people bring their baggage into the church.


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## Dachaser (Nov 9, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> No argument there, but psychologically some people have trauma of which they may not always be aware. This is often the case in sexual abuse victims, satanic abuse victims, CIA MK-ULTRA types, and so on. You don't always need a full exorcism to deal with it, but the issues might go beyond "you need to read the bible more."
> 
> We agree that Jesus saves sinners, but we also know that people bring their baggage into the church.


Good to hear that you are biblical based in this type of ministry, as my prior experiences have been with those in Charismatic Chaos that were anything but scripture based.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 9, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Good to hear that you are biblical based in this type of ministry, as my prior experiences have been with those in Charismatic Chaos that were anything but scripture based.



To each his own experiences. Most of those in more recognized deliverance ministries (Wimber, Moreland et al) are quite sane and even analytically rational in their approaches.


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## Dachaser (Nov 10, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> To each his own experiences. Most of those in more recognized deliverance ministries (Wimber, Moreland et al) are quite sane and even analytically rational in their approaches.


That would not be John Wimber, would it?


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## earl40 (Nov 10, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> That would not be John Wimber, would it?



Oh Lord help us if so.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> That would not be John Wimber, would it?



Yes.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2017)

I've read Wimber. Don't see the problem. He is more level-headed than most of his critics and he doesn't make outlandish claims. If our God is the kind of God that does the supernatural, and assuming Wimber isn't outright lying, then there is prima facie reason to believe him.


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## Dachaser (Nov 10, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've read Wimber. Don't see the problem. He is more level-headed than most of his critics and he doesn't make outlandish claims. If our God is the kind of God that does the supernatural, and assuming Wimber isn't outright lying, then there is prima facie reason to believe him.


He is Charismatic, and some of his theology would be listed under "Charasmatic Chaos" category.


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## Dachaser (Nov 10, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Oh Lord help us if so.


Indeed, as he has interesting charasmatic theology, for sure.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> He is Charismatic, and some of his theology would be listed under "Charasmatic Chaos" category.



So? That is an example of the genetic fallacy.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2017)

I am aware that Wimber believes in the supernatural gifts working today. So do I. Labeling him as such isn't much of an argument. Now if he starts making claims like Creflo Dolla, then we might be on to something.

In any case, my worldview can accommodate the supernatural happening today because:
a) I repudiate David Hume.
b) That's basically all that needs to be said regarding epistemology and metaphysics.


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I am aware that Wimber believes in the supernatural gifts working today. So do I. Labeling him as such isn't much of an argument. Now if he starts making claims like Creflo Dolla, then we might be on to something.
> 
> In any case, my worldview can accommodate the supernatural happening today because:
> a) I repudiate David Hume.
> b) That's basically all that needs to be said regarding epistemology and metaphysics.


I also believe that the Lord cna do whatever supernatural thing that he wants to happen even today, but John Wimber theology seem to indicate that we can name it and claim it, as we should have divine health and have no illness, and he also seemed to see that any bad things happening to us was a result of Satan, and he seemed to rule out that it could just be God correcting and trying to communicate to us in those situations.


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So? That is an example of the genetic fallacy.


His overall theology was basically repackages name it and claim it in more acceptable terminology.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> His overall theology was basically repackages name it and claim it in more acceptable terminology.



No it isn't. Name it and claim it believes God has to heal you. Wimber explicitly denies that.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> but John Wimber theology seem to indicate that we can name it and claim it, as we should have divine health and have no illness, and he also seemed to see that any bad things happening to us was a result of Satan, and he seemed to rule out that it could just be God correcting and trying to communicate to us in those situations.



This is so wrong on so many levels. He documents numerous cases in _Power Healing _and _Power Evangelism _where God won't heal.


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> No it isn't. Name it and claim it believes God has to heal you. Wimber explicitly denies that.


He did seem to hold though that we had the right to experience divine health, as that was a part of the Gospel message


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> This is so wrong on so many levels. He documents numerous cases in _Power Healing _and _Power Evangelism _where God won't heal.


I can appreciate that he was not nearly as bad as some charismatic faith healers, but he was not really grounded into the scriptures, as he also had those signs of words of knowledge and wisdom, and he did seem to base almost all of his teachings on Acts, and saw that as the model way that the Holy Spirit still operated even today.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I can appreciate that he was not nearly as bad as some charismatic faith healers, but he was not really grounded into the scriptures, as he also had those signs of words of knowledge and wisdom, and he did seem to base almost all of his teachings on Acts, and saw that as the model way that the Holy Spirit still operated even today.



So you concede my original claim. As to the rest of your post, a bunch of assertions. I think the book of Acts is operative today.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> He did seem to hold though that we had the right to experience divine health, as that was a part of the Gospel message



I don't think that is what he said, and in any case "a right to divine health" (or a right to anything) is really ambiguous. Nobody outside of Creflo Dollar would make that claim (since it rules out Jesus).


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So you concede my original claim. As to the rest of your post, a bunch of assertions. I think the book of Acts is operative today.


I would say that the book of acts would be an historical account of the transition period between old and new Covenants periods. The events and acts done there would be what happened to the early Church, but would not be normative to how we can expect the Holy Spirit to act today all of the time.


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## Dachaser (Nov 11, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't think that is what he said, and in any case "a right to divine health" (or a right to anything) is really ambiguous. Nobody outside of Creflo Dollar would make that claim (since it rules out Jesus).


He seemed to be holding that the Gospel had to have signs and wonders in order to be seen as the "Full Gospel".


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> He seemed to be holding that the Gospel had to have signs and wonders in order to be seen as the "Full Gospel".



"Full Gospel" is a dangerously connotative phrase. Wimber did not say that people who didn't have signs and wonders didn't have the salvific benefits of Christ.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I would say that the book of acts would be an historical account of the transition period between old and new Covenants periods. The events and acts done there would be what happened to the early Church, but would not be normative to how we can expect the Holy Spirit to act today all of the time.



I know that you _say_ that. Those are assertions. They are not arguments. In any case, I think my and others' posts have satisfied the requirements of the OP.


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## Jeri Tanner (Nov 11, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.



Ryan, it's not impossible that your mom belonged to the Lord and yet died from drug use. Sometimes God's final discipline on his own is to take them in death. 1 Corinthians 11: 29-33- "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

We learn from this passage that God will use death as chastening to save some from condemnation. It seems strange that it should be so, but so it is. It's comforting and gives reason to hope to know that this is true, in many cases. 


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## Jeri Tanner (Nov 11, 2017)

Jacob, you seem to want to equate Christian cessationism with David Hume. Arriving at cessationism has to do (as you know) with how one interprets Scripture; it has nothing to do with one having an atheistic philosophy on the supernatural. Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers. 


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## Free Christian (Nov 12, 2017)

arapahoepark said:


> With regard to your friend, have you watched The Mentalist?


Or Penn and Teller. Seen some on there that would get anyone believing that sort of medium rubbish. Too much is attributed to Satan which is really just clever human trickery.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2017)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers.



Modern day cessationists do, or some anyway. The old positions taken by Warfield and Hodge on this point are just untenable, as even their supporters admit. There were a few on PB who thought all cases of demon possession, perhaps even in Scripture, were just psychoses.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2017)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Jacob, you seem to want to equate Christian cessationism with David Hume. Arriving at cessationism has to do (as you know) with how one interprets Scripture; it has nothing to do with one having an atheistic philosophy on the supernatural. Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Further, Hume wasn't trying to be an atheist. He was specifically agnostic regarding miracle-claims. My point was that the MacArthurites have the same methodology regarding miracles today.


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## earl40 (Nov 12, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Modern day cessationists do, or some anyway. The old positions taken by Warfield and Hodge on this point are just untenable, as even their supporters admit. There were a few on PB who thought all cases of demon possession, perhaps even in Scripture, were just psychoses.


Far from untenable. So far as believing demon possession as thought about in most of today's culture that is untenable and a sigh of being under the dominion of the evil one.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2017)

earl40 said:


> thought about in most of today's culture



If you are talking about shows like the Exorcism, then I agree. But modern academic charismatic scholars have demonstrated that that is not what they are doing. Even cessationists like Vern Poythress admit that the academic charismatics aren't making such a silly claim.


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## AnnaBanana (Nov 13, 2017)

I understand that this is a message board, but just wanted to put it out there that I did not mean to cause a debate in here (if it's even that) . 

Anna Banana (the peace lovin hippie!)


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## RamistThomist (Nov 13, 2017)

AnnaBanana said:


> I understand that this is a message board, but just wanted to put it out there that I did not mean to cause a debate in here (if it's even that) .
> 
> Anna Banana (the peace lovin hippie!)



Don't sweat it. Everything is a debate at some time


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 13, 2017)

So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.



Whether the gifts continue or not is based on exegesis, not on whether I need to be careful in possibly implying that some people might be suppressing the Spirit. I leave that between those people and the Spirit. In any case, I never made such an implication.


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## earl40 (Nov 14, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.



That is a very good point.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> That is a very good point.



Let's look at it this way: let's say person _X_ exercises a gift. Person _Y _comes to him and says, "If you do that, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that."


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## Free Christian (Nov 14, 2017)

I found this interesting. Partial healing!?
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/1990/04/john-wimber-changes-his-mind/


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

Free Christian said:


> I found this interesting. Partial healing!?
> http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/1990/04/john-wimber-changes-his-mind/



That's a great article. It completely refutes the idea that Wimber was a name it/claim it. It also sets forth what guys like Wimber and Moreland believe about this kind of healing.

It's also important to note that Wimber never says, "Be ye healed." He just prays over them and lets the people know what is and isn't going on. 

I think a lot of Reformed people are hung up on thinking everyone who isn't Macarthur is necessarily Benny Hinn on this subject.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

Free Christian said:


> I found this interesting. Partial healing!?
> http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/1990/04/john-wimber-changes-his-mind/



I would question #4 in the article. It seems at least in the article, that neither Wimber nor the author of the article, understood what was at stake in the claim "sufficiency of Scripture."

And the criticism in #5 is borderline cheating.



> So the movements which taught error were inspired by the Spirit of truth!



Lutheranism teaches error in its view of the Lord's Supper, yet we all say the Reformation is inspired by the Spirit of God. Ergo, a movement that taught error was inspired by the Spirit of God!
(drops mic)


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## earl40 (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Let's look at it this way: let's say person _X_ exercises a gift. Person _Y _comes to him and says, "If you do that, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that."



Allow me to change your quote to the intent of "quenching The Spirit" as per the point made earlier. "Let's say person _X_ exercises a gift. "Person _Y _comes to him and says, "If you do that *and I do not*, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that *because you are being deceived by satan." *


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Allow me to change your quote to the intent of "quenching The Spirit" as per the point made earlier. "Let's say person _X_ exercises a gift. "Person _Y _comes to him and says, "If you do that *and I do not*, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that *because you are being deceived by Satan." *



Two things:
1) Person _X _never said that. That was Person _Y's _projection
2) I honestly don't care what Person Y may or may not be doing. I'm out here doing kingdom work, testifying against intellectual demonic strongholds (2 Cor. 10).
2.1) As to being deceived by Satan, well, y'all can say that. I'm not too bothered either way since I know it is a false claim.


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## earl40 (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Two things:
> 1) Person _X _never said that. That was Person _Y's _projection
> 2) I honestly don't care what Person Y may or may not be doing. I'm out here doing kingdom work, testifying against intellectual demonic strongholds (2 Cor. 10).
> 2.1) As to being deceived by Satan, well, y'all can say that. I'm not too bothered either way since I know it is a false claim.



And I know any report of healing today like Jesus and The Apostles did is a false claim.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> And I know any report of healing today like Jesus and The Apostles did is a false claim.



I guess I have nothing else to say. You've already made a universal judgment regarding any type of evidence. I'll quote my David Hume passage when I get back to my desktop


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> And I know any report of healing today like Jesus and The Apostles did is a false claim.



Hume's epistemology is a tough pill to swallow.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-church-of-hume.html

It forms a strong presumption against all supernatural and miraculous relations, that they are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations; or if a civilized people has ever given admission to any of them, that people will be found to have received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors, who transmitted them with that inviolable sanction and authority, which always attend received opinions. When we peruse the first histories of all nations, we are apt to imagine ourselves transported into some new world; where the whole frame of nature is disjointed, and every element performs its operations in a different manner, from what it does at present. Battles, revolutions, pestilence, famine and death, are never the effect of those natural causes, which we experience. Prodigies, omens, oracles, judgements, quite obscure the few natural events, that are intermingled with them. But as the former grow thinner every page, in proportion as we advance nearer the enlightened ages, we soon learn, *that there is nothing mysterious or supernatural in the case, but that all proceeds from the usual propensity of mankind towards the marvellous, and that, though this inclination may at intervals receive a check from sense and learning, it can never be thoroughly extirpated from human nature. It is strange, a judicious reader is apt to say, upon the perusal of these wonderful historians, that such prodigious events never happen in our days.* The advantages are so great, of starting an imposture among an ignorant people, that, even though the delusion should be too gross to impose on the generality of them (_which, though seldom, is sometimes the case_) it has a much better chance for succeeding in remote countries, than if the first scene had been laid in a city renowned for arts and knowledge. The most ignorant and barbarous of these barbarians carry the report abroad. None of their countrymen have a large correspondence, or sufficient credit and authority to contradict and beat down the delusion.


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## earl40 (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Hume's epistemology is a tough pill to swallow.
> http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-church-of-hume.html
> 
> It forms a strong presumption against all supernatural and miraculous relations, that they are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations; or if a civilized people has ever given admission to any of them, that people will be found to have received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors, who transmitted them with that inviolable sanction and authority, which always attend received opinions. When we peruse the first histories of all nations, we are apt to imagine ourselves transported into some new world; where the whole frame of nature is disjointed, and every element performs its operations in a different manner, from what it does at present. Battles, revolutions, pestilence, famine and death, are never the effect of those natural causes, which we experience. Prodigies, omens, oracles, judgements, quite obscure the few natural events, that are intermingled with them. But as the former grow thinner every page, in proportion as we advance nearer the enlightened ages, we soon learn, *that there is nothing mysterious or supernatural in the case, but that all proceeds from the usual propensity of mankind towards the marvellous, and that, though this inclination may at intervals receive a check from sense and learning, it can never be thoroughly extirpated from human nature. It is strange, a judicious reader is apt to say, upon the perusal of these wonderful historians, that such prodigious events never happen in our days.* The advantages are so great, of starting an imposture among an ignorant people, that, even though the delusion should be too gross to impose on the generality of them (_which, though seldom, is sometimes the case_) it has a much better chance for succeeding in remote countries, than if the first scene had been laid in a city renowned for arts and knowledge. The most ignorant and barbarous of these barbarians carry the report abroad. None of their countrymen have a large correspondence, or sufficient credit and authority to contradict and beat down the delusion.



Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.


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## Dachaser (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> "Full Gospel" is a dangerously connotative phrase. Wimber did not say that people who didn't have signs and wonders didn't have the salvific benefits of Christ.


True, but he does seem to hold that we need to preach and teach to him what was the full gospel, that meant in addition to salvation, we can and should expect healing and miracles in our lives, as Acts was still for today.


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## Dachaser (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I know that you _say_ that. Those are assertions. They are not arguments. In any case, I think my and others' posts have satisfied the requirements of the OP.


I would think that is the standard view of non Charismatic reformed and Baptist though concerning how to view Acts.


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## Dachaser (Nov 14, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.


One can still hold to God being able to do miracles and healings even today as part of His sovereign workings, but not buy into the Charismatic viewpoint that basically everything that happened in Acts is still norm for today.


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## Dachaser (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.


Do you hold then that the Lord cannot do any miracles or healing or visions at all today?


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## Dachaser (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> And I know any report of healing today like Jesus and The Apostles did is a false claim.


I believe that God can still at times divine heal, but the normal method is through doctors and medicine, and would never say God could not do anything any more period.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 14, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> One can still hold to God being able to do miracles and healings even today as part of His sovereign workings, but not buy into the Charismatic viewpoint that basically everything that happened in Acts is still norm for today.



Good thought. Another interesting thought is where blasphemy of the Holy Spirit fits into the picture. If the work is really from God and we ridicule it as false or satanic, wouldn't that fit in as blasphemy against the Spirit?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.



I commend your consistency.


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## earl40 (Nov 14, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I commend your consistency.


 
I appreciate that. Thanks.


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## Dachaser (Nov 15, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Good thought. Another interesting thought is where blasphemy of the Holy Spirit fits into the picture. If the work is really from God and we ridicule it as false or satanic, wouldn't that fit in as blasphemy against the Spirit?


I think that would be when the Pharisees had the Lord right there in the flesh, and saw His miracles, and called him used of Satan, and that is not the same as not realizing that God is doing something, or not seeing that it is really of Satan. Do not believe really saved persons can commit that sin.


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## Cedarbay (Nov 15, 2017)

AnnaBanana said:


> Here is my question... I didn't really know what to say? I hope I don't sound to naive and stupid but I really didn't. I do not believe in anything in that sort whatsoever: horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings and I made that absolutely clear to her
> _
> How would you have responded? _


I've been thinking about this for several days. You already said exactly what needed to be said in denouncing these affiliations as ungodly. Good for you and well done.

I worked for several years in the health food industry which seems to draw people of the most dark and desperate beliefs. Anything goes. One woman I worked very closely with believed she was a white witch and spoke daily of spells she was casting. I finally asked to be transferred away from her, because it distracted me from my work, which is important to note for you. We are employed to work and not to evangelize or prosthelytize per se. Let your work ethic and holy living be the Christian witness.

While we love our neighbor and those in unbelief, we do not fellowship and spend much time with them without pastoral care for ourselves, and even meeting with that person in pairs.

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## Haeralis (Nov 15, 2017)

I am sorry to say that a nominal Christian in my family believes that being a "psychic" is a spiritual gift, despite its emphatic condemnation in the pages of the Scriptures. Her response was simply that "it doesn't matter what the Bible says" because God wouldn't give anyone the capacity to speak to the dead unless he wanted them to do it. Please keep her in your prayers.


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## lynnie (Nov 15, 2017)

Casting out demons is the children's bread. Jesus was clear. Not for the dogs, but for the children. Not for the unsaved but for the elect. 

Having said that, there was a whole lot of stuff way back in my early charismatic days that we called demons, that was just sin and flesh. Probably almost all is. But you can't rule out the occasional truly demonic situation in one of God's children. 

Wayne Grudem used to go to Wimber's church and dedicated his ST to eight people including Wimber who is Calvinist to at least some degree. Not that either of them are what the PB typically represents, but in no way is Wimber the Word of faith movement either.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 15, 2017)

lynnie said:


> Casting out demons is the children's bread. Jesus was clear. Not for the dogs, but for the children. Not for the unsaved but for the elect.
> 
> Having said that, there was a whole lot of stuff way back in my early charismatic days that we called demons, that was just sin and flesh. Probably almost all is. But you can't rule out the occasional truly demonic situation in one of God's children.
> 
> Wayne Grudem used to go to Wimber's church and dedicated his ST to eight people including Wimber who is Calvinist to at least some degree. Not that either of them are what the PB typically represents, but in no way is Wimber the Word of faith movement either.



Right. And Wimber is actually quite reticent to call things "demons." 

The only real demonic experience I ever had was when I was reading a neo-Marxist interpretation of Hegel. I have since thrown that book away.


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## lynnie (Nov 15, 2017)

Dachaser-

Just so you understand, most of the people who believe the NT gifts of the spirit operate today are in charismatic churches that are third wave, prophetic-apostolic, word of faith, classic Pentecostal, and various fringe groups. 

There is a small subset- we frequently refer to ourselves as continuationists or continuists- who want to be sound doctrine, and who do not see the operation of the gifts in church services or daily life the way a typical charismatic in the former group might. It is a lot to explain, but the more popular names like Wimber, Grudem, Piper, Sam Storms, Poythress, etc, are fully committed to the innerancy and sufficiency of scripture in a way that those caught up with end time prophets and "words" are not. Some are not in confessional churches, but some like Poythress are in the OPC and I knew plenty in the PCA.


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## lynnie (Nov 15, 2017)

When my daughter- who is 21 and gloriously walking with the Lord- was 14, we came home to a voice message that her birthmom was alive, had contacted the agency in Romania and wanted contact. My daughter had cried herself to sleep for years wondering why her Mom abandoned her and if she was alive. Her almost first three years were spent in the hell of a Romanian orphanage with the neglect and partial starvation common there.

Long long story, but eventually she went over and met the Mom, Aunt, brother, and cousin, and it went great. But at first she was slashing her arms and body up, and in counseling for two years at CCEF not doing well, followed by two months at a Christian live in facility. It did break the cutting addiction, and by the way 20% of teen girls cut. I've met eight Christian girl cutters since my daughter started, so be aware and alert.

Anyway, one day when she was maybe 16 I was home with her and her bloody two inch gashes in the forearms which used to make me want to pass out, and I sat her down and talked about how deep down all people know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and only the blood of Jesus can wash us clean and set us free, and a cutter is trying to shed their own blood and be their own atonement, and it is a counterfeit.

Her whole face changed, ( usually needy, in pain, beaten down) and the darkest thing looked at me out of her eyes and said in a deep low man's voice "shut up" and she slammed out of the room.

I didn't do any of the binding stuff or talking to a demon, we just kept speaking truth and it got worse before it got better. I was aware for a long time of a demonic presence that I had to battle with speaking the truth. But don't try to tell me it wasn't a demon. You could feel it, you could see it, and it is like the prophets of Baal when these kids slash themselves. They are temporarily possessed. And they may truly belong to the Lord in the middle of it.

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## Scott Bushey (Nov 15, 2017)

> I knew plenty in the PCA.



I knew plenty in the PCA also, but that was because many people in the PCA are also Arminian and credo baptist. I have seen very few confessional people in the PCA and the numbers continue to dwindle (in my opinion). Blame it on entertainment and various holiday festivities. I believe Rome is even getting on the band wagon in a similar fashion today.


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## Dachaser (Nov 16, 2017)

lynnie said:


> Casting out demons is the children's bread. Jesus was clear. Not for the dogs, but for the children. Not for the unsaved but for the elect.
> 
> Having said that, there was a whole lot of stuff way back in my early charismatic days that we called demons, that was just sin and flesh. Probably almost all is. But you can't rule out the occasional truly demonic situation in one of God's children.
> 
> Wayne Grudem used to go to Wimber's church and dedicated his ST to eight people including Wimber who is Calvinist to at least some degree. Not that either of them are what the PB typically represents, but in no way is Wimber the Word of faith movement either.


Perhaps not, but he did seem to have some confusing theology in this area.


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## Dachaser (Nov 16, 2017)

lynnie said:


> Dachaser-
> 
> Just so you understand, most of the people who believe the NT gifts of the spirit operate today are in charismatic churches that are third wave, prophetic-apostolic, word of faith, classic Pentecostal, and various fringe groups.
> 
> There is a small subset- we frequently refer to ourselves as continuationists or continuists- who want to be sound doctrine, and who do not see the operation of the gifts in church services or daily life the way a typical charismatic in the former group might. It is a lot to explain, but the more popular names like Wimber, Grudem, Piper, Sam Storms, Poythress, etc, are fully committed to the innerancy and sufficiency of scripture in a way that those caught up with end time prophets and "words" are not. Some are not in confessional churches, but some like Poythress are in the OPC and I knew plenty in the PCA.


I am not against the Lord doing in His sovereignty at times miracles and divine healings today, but would caution those that you listed here, as I do see them as being Christians, having read their works, especially Dr Grudem ST, but still very concerned that they have seemed to open themselves up to this kind of charismatic theology.
Their thinking seems to open the door to the scriptures not being the fully sufficient and infallible guide to us today,as we still need to have at times other things of the Spirit happening also.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 16, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I am not against the Lord doing in His sovereignty at times miracles and divine healings today, but would caution those that you listed here, as I do see them as being Christians, having read their works, especially Dr Grudem ST, but still very concerned that they have seemed to open themselves up to this kind of charismatic theology.
> Their thinking seems to open the door to the scriptures not being the fully sufficient and infallible guide to us today,as we still need to have at times other things of the Spirit happening also.



There seems to be a lot of "seems" in that post. That's more anecdotal than anything resembling an actual, logical argument.

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## Dachaser (Nov 16, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> There seems to be a lot of "seems" in that post. That's more anecdotal than anything resembling an actual, logical argument.


Would you agree with the main point, about being concerned with too much of a deviation from the scriptures?


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## lynnie (Nov 16, 2017)

I have problems with Wimber myself about some things, and with Grudem as well. I would find other works to give people. I just don't want you to think that anybody who believes God still does "extraordinary" things at times today is the same as the whacky TV preachers.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 16, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Would you agree with the main point, about being concerned with too much of a deviation from the scriptures?



No


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## Dachaser (Nov 17, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> No


Why not? As the material read on Dr Grudem, and in his otherwise decent ST in the area of the Holy Spirit and His operation seemed to be making the scriptures not all sufficient?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 17, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Why not? As the material read on Dr Grudem, and in his otherwise decent ST in the area of the Holy Spirit and His operation seemed to be making the scriptures not all sufficient?



No, they do not _seem _(there is that pesky word again) to be making the Scriptures insufficient. Maybe you can make a logical argument. The Scriptures are sufficient. But the key question is "Sufficient to what end?" For example, the Scriptures aren't sufficient in teaching me how to perform open-heart surgery.


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## Jeri Tanner (Nov 17, 2017)

I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine [emoji4]). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 17, 2017)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jeri Tanner said:


> I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's an interesting thought. If I may ask, using the Bible, how did you come to that conclusion? Thanks.


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## Dachaser (Nov 17, 2017)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine [emoji4]). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just stated here far better than I could what my thoughts were on this issue.


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## Jeri Tanner (Nov 17, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> That's an interesting thought. If I may ask, using the Bible, how did you come to that conclusion? Thanks.


Ryan, I knew the answers I'd gotten from third wave Pentecostalism and charismaticism would not suffice and God was gracious to help me. I was given a large amount of time to study the Scriptures for several years. I saw where those teachings regarding guidance and demonology, to name two, were being wrongly lifted out of their context from the Scripture. (I found, of course, good teaching on the topic.) The gospels and Acts are largely narrative; they tell the great deeds of God through Christ and the Holy Spirit through the times of the apostles, directly guiding them, giving them power to cast out demons, etc. But then, when you come to the didactic portion of the NT, the epistles, you see no instruction to the church or expectation that we will perform (or need to perform) such deeds as were performed by Christ and the apostles. I believe the testimony of Scripture is that Christ accomplished a great victory over Satan at the cross, and the apostles were commissioned to 'wrap it up,' so to speak. After their time, such activity and direct guidance ceased, as did signs and wonders accompanying the ministry.

So whatever Satan's activity in the world today beyond the insight given us in the epistles, the weapons of our warfare don't include direct dealings with Satan. We are certainly not to be ignorant of his schemes. But the epistles tell us how we are to strive against Satan's devices and it includes prayer, striving against sin by the Spirit, perseverance in the faith, submission to God and his word, and so on. As far as guidance, God gives wisdom through his word and works through our decisions and actions; through providential dealings he gets us where we need to be. 

Here's a MLJ quote that kind of sums it up: "If I might summarize all these dangers, it is the danger of isolating a text or an idea and building up a system around it, instead of comparing Scripture with Scripture. It is the seeking of a short cut in the spiritual world... We must reject anything which is not based soundly upon the teaching of the Epistles. We must be very careful that we do not take an incident out of the Gospels, and weave a theory around it... we must realize that our standard... is to be found in the Epistles." D.M. Lloyd-Jones, Knowing the Times, page 11

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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2017)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine [emoji4]). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The Scriptures are sufficient for teaching about demons. They teach us to cast out and pray against demons (spiritual warfare), yet Reformed do not do that.


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## earl40 (Nov 18, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The Scriptures are sufficient for teaching about demons. They teach us to cast out and pray against demons (spiritual warfare), yet Reformed do not do that.


 I thank God for such.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2017)

earl40 said:


> I thank God for such.



But, you know, the Scriptures do mention that as a reality.


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## TheOldCourse (Nov 18, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The Scriptures are sufficient for teaching about demons. *They teach us to cast out and pray against demons (spiritual warfare)*, yet Reformed do not do that.



That's precisely the point in contention.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2017)

TheOldCourse said:


> That's precisely the point in contention.



By "They" Imeant "Scriptures," in case that was unclear. I am not setting forth a manifesto for exorcisms. My point was that Wimber's spirituality wasn't as wacky as it seemed, especially in light where some Reformed deny the reality of demonic warfare, pace the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6.


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## TheOldCourse (Nov 18, 2017)

BayouHuguenot said:


> By "They" Imeant "Scriptures," in case that was unclear. I am not setting forth a manifesto for exorcisms. My point was that Wimber's spirituality wasn't as wacky as it seemed, especially in light where some Reformed deny the reality of demonic warfare, pace the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6.



Right, the contentious point is that the Scriptures teach that there is a continuing duty to cast out demons. I don't mean to wade too deeply into this but Ephesians 6 certainly doesn't teach that--you must import that concept into Paul's teachings on spiritual warfare from elsewhere. It's not as if Reformed cessationists just ignore the passage.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 19, 2017)

TheOldCourse said:


> Right, the contentious point is that the Scriptures teach that there is a continuing duty to cast out demons. I don't mean to wade too deeply into this but Ephesians 6 certainly doesn't teach that--you must import that concept into Paul's teachings on spiritual warfare from elsewhere. It's not as if Reformed cessationists just ignore the passage.



I didn't say Ephesians 6 said that. I meant that Ephesians 6 implies demonic warfare.

I didn't say there was a continuing duty to cast out demons. I don't think every Christian will be in a position to always be casting out demons. I simply deny the disconinuity that cessationists assume.


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