# Church Government



## Reformed 78 (Sep 9, 2017)

To Reformed Baptists:

Are there any thoughts or commentary and or resources on why reformed baptist reject Presbyterianism's form of Church government?

I have a Reformed Presbyterian friend trying to convince me of Presbyterianism.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Please, no slandering the other side. Just helpful thoughts on why you disagree...


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 9, 2017)

I'm also open to any thoughts from Presbyterians... Just no war,lol!

Thanks!


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 9, 2017)

Thomas Witherow has a work (larger and then a more concise title) comparing Episcopacy, Congregationalism and Presbyterianism showing from the Presbyterian side how each fall away at certain scriptural points until he gets to his own view. The Apostolic Church which is it is the title I think. I would be surprised if it is not online. If you want an early debate between Presbyterians and Independents, look for the Naphtali Press edition of The Grand Debate, which are the Westminster Assembly debate papers (check RHB, but this title if it isn't already is out of print from me).

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## Pilgrim (Sep 9, 2017)

Reformed 78 said:


> To Reformed Baptists:
> 
> Are there any thoughts or commentary and or resources on why reformed baptist reject Presbyterianism's form of Church government?
> 
> ...



Very simply, it is because Baptists (and various other independents and congregationalists) do not see, by either example or inference, presbyteries and the various other courts that make up Presbyterian church government in the Bible.

If you're just starting to look into the subject, Zondervan's "Who Runs the Church" and/or B&H's "Perspectives on Church Governments" aren't bad places to start, and the Kindle editions go on sale for $1-$3 or so a few times per year. While not technically "Reformed Baptist," there are some good Southern Baptist resources on ecclesiology such as this one. The 9 Marks website will have a lot more info. 

It might take a while to search, but there are probably some series or sermons on this issue on Sermon Audio.

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## Dachaser (Sep 9, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> Very simply, it is because Baptists (and various other independents and congregationalists) do not see, by either example or inference, presbyteries and the various other courts that make up Presbyterian church government in the Bible.
> If you're just starting to look into the subject, Zondervan's "Who Runs the Church" and/or B&H's "Perspectives on Church Governments" aren't bad places to start, and the Kindle editions go on sale for $1-$3 or so a few times per year. While not technically "Reformed Baptist," there are some good Southern Baptist resources on ecclesiology such as this one. The 9 Marks website will have a lot more info.
> 
> It might take a while to search, but there are probably some series or sermons on this issue on Sermon Audio.


This would fall under what Baptists see as the local autonomy of each individual local assembly of believers to self govern themselves.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 9, 2017)

Looking for something else (as usual) I just found some of these which I thought had been lost; so will adding the few left to the NP website next week.


NaphtaliPress said:


> If you want an early debate between Presbyterians and Independents, look for the Naphtali Press edition of The Grand Debate, which are the Westminster Assembly debate papers (check RHB, but this title if it isn't already is out of print from me).

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## Reformed 78 (Sep 9, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Thomas Witherow has a work (larger and then a more concise title) comparing Episcopacy, Congregationalism and Presbyterianism showing from the Presbyterian side how each fall away at certain scriptural points until he gets to his own view. The Apostolic Church which is it is the title I think. I would be surprised if it is not online. If you want an early debate between Presbyterians and Independents, look for the Naphtali Press edition of The Grand Debate, which are the Westminster Assembly debate papers (check RHB, but this title if it isn't already is out of print from me).



Thanks!!


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## Reformed 78 (Sep 9, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> Very simply, it is because Baptists (and various other independents and congregationalists) do not see, by either example or inference, presbyteries and the various other courts that make up Presbyterian church government in the Bible.
> 
> If you're just starting to look into the subject, Zondervan's "Who Runs the Church" and/or B&H's "Perspectives on Church Governments" aren't bad places to start, and the Kindle editions go on sale for $1-$3 or so a few times per year. While not technically "Reformed Baptist," there are some good Southern Baptist resources on ecclesiology such as this one. The 9 Marks website will have a lot more info.
> 
> It might take a while to search, but there are probably some series or sermons on this issue on Sermon Audio.



Thanks!!


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## Cymro (Sep 10, 2017)

It was Witherow that nailed it for me.


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## jw (Sep 10, 2017)

I third Witherow. His discussion on "non-essentials" is also very good. Free to read/download here:
Which is the Apostolic Church?

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## Krak3n (Sep 11, 2017)

Joshua said:


> I third Witherow. His discussion on "non-essentials" is also very good. Free to read/download here:
> Which is the Apostolic Church?



I actually read that entire book. No, not long ago, just in the time between your post and now. You don't understand! I rarely finish books!

I will say that I found it concise and thought provoking.

I've a few questions now, but I'll not hijack this thread.


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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 11, 2017)

For a pretty thorough work on Presbyterianism, I would suggest James Bannerman's _Church of Christ_ (2 Volumes). It's online for free at Internet Archive.

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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 11, 2017)

Some other resources on Presbyterianism:

George Gillespie - Aaron's Rod Blossoming

Samuel Rutherford - Due Rights of Presbyteries 

Rutherford - Divine Right of Church Government

Sundry Ministers of London - Jus Divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici


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## deathtolife (Sep 11, 2017)

I found James Bannerman and Witherow extremely helpful. However, as a Presbyterian, may I recommend some literature from the "other side".

*J_ohn Cotton - *The Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Power Thereof and The Way of Congregational Churches Cleared* (HERE)_

_**The Cambridge Platform (here)*

*Samuel Mather - An Apology for the Liberties of the Churches in New England: to which is prefixed, A Discourse concerning Congregational Churches (here)_

**George Punchard - A View of Congregationalism (here)
*

I would also like to add something. I hope it is helpful to your questions and research. 

I have found through the reading I have done that historic independence/congregationalism vs Presbyterianism is not as cut, dry and tidy as we like to make it sound it is. Hunter Powell does a fine job showing this in his book/thesis *The crisis of British Protestantism: Church power in the Puritan Revolution (here).* He shows well that the differences are often exaggerated. Rev. Dr. Ryan McGraw says "Powell shows how the Scots achieved a high degree of unity with the Apologists (Congregationalists who were known later as the Dissenting Brethren) over the question of the seat of church power." Another brief comment from McGraw in reviewing this book:

_ "It forces readers to listen to the Westminster divines and to assess them on their own terms and in their own world. Modern readers may not always like what they find in reading books like this one. Yet this work is necessary to help explain what the Westminster Assembly did and did not intend to say in its affirmation of Presbyterian polity. Presbyterians were not all cut from the same cloth and not all Congregationalists were as far away from some forms of Presbyterianism as we may tend to think. Above all, this book provides us with an admirable example of how the Scots and the Apologists pursued catholic unity in their theology without threatening their distinctives. It also provides us with a model of doctrinal precision, spiritual maturity, and catholic charity that has potential to serve the church well today."_

Blessings.


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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 11, 2017)

deathtolife said:


> I found James Bannerman and Witherow extremely helpful. However, as a Presbyterian, may I recommend some literature from the "other side".
> 
> *J_ohn Cotton - *The Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Power Thereof and The Way of Congregational Churches Cleared* (HERE)_
> 
> ...




Although I do think one should read the other writings, it should be noted that Robert Baillie refutes John Cotton in his _A Disuassive From the Errors of Our Time.
_
If I recall, Owen (who started as a Presbyterian) read John Cotton and converted to congregationalism. However, many portions of his works show that he was more Presbyterian than many lead on today. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee's reasearch on this subject is something to look into from his work _Owen Represbyterianized.
_
One shouldn't forget Naphtali Press' _The Grand Debate_ where the papers of the assembly are given.


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## deathtolife (Sep 11, 2017)

Andrew P.C. said:


> Although I do think one should read the other writings, it should be noted that Robert Baillie refutes John Cotton in his _A Disuassive From the Errors of Our Time.
> _
> If I recall, Owen (who started as a Presbyterian) read John Cotton and converted to congregationalism. However, many portions of his works show that he was more Presbyterian than many lead on today. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee's reasearch on this subject is something to look into from his work _Owen Represbyterianized.
> _
> One shouldn't forget Naphtali Press' _The Grand Debate_ where the papers of the assembly are given.



Thanks for the response Andrew.

I believe Cotton responds to both Rutherford and Baille in The Way of Congregational Churches Cleared (the 2nd treatise).

I am not sure about John Owen being "Represbyterianized" but I did read Rev. Sinclair Ferguson mention Owens polity as a "truncated Presbyterianism", which is what I find a lot of historic congregationalism to be. Where can I find Dr. Francis Nigel Lee's research? Is it available online?


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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 11, 2017)

deathtolife said:


> Thanks for the response Andrew.
> 
> I believe Cotton responds to both Rutherford and Baille in The Way of Congregational Churches Cleared (the 2nd treatise).
> 
> I am not sure about John Owen being "Represbyterianized" but I did read Rev. Sinclair Ferguson mention Owens polity as a "truncated Presbyterianism", which is what I find a lot of historic congregationalism to be. Where can I find Dr. Francis Nigel Lee's research? Is it available online?



The work is apparently out of print, but Still Waters Revival Books has it in audio format here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1124081331576


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 11, 2017)

Here you are:

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## Reformed 78 (Sep 11, 2017)

Thank you for all your thoughts and resources! I'm going to dig into as much as I can! Please pray for me as I press forward! Again, Thank you!!

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## Ben Zartman (Sep 12, 2017)

Jumping in late (I've been out of town), but if you can find recordings of Greg Nichols lectures on the Doctrine of the Church, he has a very good treatment of it from the Reformed Baptist perspective, with able refutations of Presbyterian polity where it parts ways with that of Baptists.


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## Held Fast (Sep 15, 2017)

You cannot separate ecclesiology from baptism - they work together. It is from that fundamental point of disagreement that our respective church orders are built.


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## Krak3n (Sep 15, 2017)

Held Fast said:


> You cannot separate ecclesiology from baptism - they work together. It is from that fundamental point of disagreement that our respective church orders are built.



I have very little understanding of Presbyterian anything, so help me understand what you mean. We aren't talking about mode of baptism right? So you're saying that paedobaptism flows from church polity? Clearly I am confused... I don't mean this to argue with you, I only want to understand the connection you are making. I think I'm missing the entire point.


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## zsmcd (Sep 15, 2017)

in my opinion baptism and polity are (normally) inseparable simply because of the presuppositions required to arrive at those positions; namely covenant theology, the relationship between the NT Ekklesia and OT Israel, OT/NT continuity/discontinuity, etc. Although, as a Presbyterian, I will say that I see an ironic connection between independent church government and the baptistic view of the sacraments - individualism.

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## Krak3n (Sep 15, 2017)

zsmcd said:


> in my opinion baptism and polity are (normally) inseparable simply because of the presuppositions required to arrive at those positions; namely covenant theology, the relationship between the NT Ekklesia and OT Israel, OT/NT continuity/discontinuity, etc. Although, as a Presbyterian, I will say that I see an ironic connection between independent church government and the baptistic view of the sacraments - individualism.



Thank you, I had considered that, and would agree with the "individualism" of baptist/independent churches.

I think what confuses me about it is that, and perhaps I'm ignorant here, but don't reformed baptist churches also hold to covenant theology?


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## Held Fast (Sep 15, 2017)

Krak3n said:


> Thank you, I had considered that, and would agree with the "individualism" of baptist/independent churches.
> 
> I think what confuses me about it is that, and perhaps I'm ignorant here, but don't reformed baptist churches also hold to covenant theology?



Covenant theology, yes. But how we approach what that covenant means to ecclesiology is very different. As Zach is alluding to, the continuity of Israel to the Church today for Presbyterians is seen in circumcision to baptism, which is why they will baptize children into a covenant community even though they may not be elect. Baptist heritage looks at the circumcision of the heart, as professed by one of the elect in believer's baptism. Presbyterian sacramental view has to accommodate for the reality that there are baptized members in their covenant community that may not be elect, while for Baptists all baptized members have professed faith in Christ in keeping with a regenerate heart, so the ordinances have no role in grace beyond symbol. And then you get to the offices of the church, and the polity ... but we agree on covenant theology, which despite our differences means we share some very rich and deep theological convictions about salvation, which is what matters.

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## Gforce9 (Sep 15, 2017)

Held Fast said:


> Covenant theology, yes. But how we approach what that covenant means to ecclesiology is very different. As Zach is alluding to, the continuity of Israel to the Church today for Presbyterians is seen in circumcision to baptism, which is why they will baptize children into a covenant community even though they may not be elect. Baptist heritage looks at the circumcision of the heart, as professed by one of the elect in believer's baptism. Presbyterian sacramental view has to accommodate for the reality that there are baptized members in their covenant community that may not be elect, while for Baptists all baptized members have professed faith in Christ in keeping with a regenerate heart, so the ordinances have no role in grace beyond symbol. And then you get to the offices of the church, and the polity ... but we agree on covenant theology, which despite our differences means we share some very rich and deep theological convictions about salvation, which is what matters.



Important point of clarification: We Presbyterians believe God does something (in the Lord's Supper), _by faith, *in the believer. *_God strengthens our faith and meets those who come in faith. It is not magic grace as in R.C. theology (because it requires faith), but God is present and works through their proper administration and reception........

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