# Do you bring up the topic of the pope?



## Matthew (Mar 13, 2013)

The recent resignation and the fresh election (just today) of a new pope has lots of people discussing the office. These elections are fairly rare and are quite a spectator sport. I'm amazed at how many people around me have been tuned in closely to the whole thing.

On the one hand, I see some professing protestant folks trying to be ecumenical and let the RCC do its thing, or even joining in "fasting and prayer for the 115 Cardinals seeking God's Will" as Rick Warren recently suggested. On the other hand, others trot out the WCF language about the antichrist and make this an opportunity to directly call out the office for the unbiblical and usurpatory office that it is.

We clearly don't want to be uncharitable or needlessly offensive, but do you see this as a good opportunity to speak biblical truth about the papal office? Or is that just taking advantage of the chance to stir up argument and dissension? This is probably a matter of some preference and personality, but I'm curious about how you might approach it. Just reading the language from the WCF would be considered uncharitable and offensive by many, I'm certain.


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## Bill The Baptist (Mar 13, 2013)

I think we always need to speak the truth in love, but even if we do it in love, the truth by its very nature offends people. We must not sacrifice the truth just for the sake of being non-offensive because only the truth can save us. It is not in any way loving to allow people to believe a lie.


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## Fly Caster (Mar 13, 2013)

"I defy the Pope and all his laws."- William Tyndale

What he stirred up needs stirring up.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 13, 2013)

I have been using this whole thing to help folks understand why the Roman See is a false Church and is Antichrist and to also help them understand why they are Protestants.


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## Rich Koster (Mar 13, 2013)

JAFA (Just Another Fallible Antichrist) Nothing has effectively changed, has it? If he sits in the throne and denounces his blasphemous title, the idolatry of RC, and overturns the bogus doctrine, then we have something to talk about.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 13, 2013)

You do realize, I trust, Matthew, that the PCA (together with the OPC and others) no longer confesses that the pope is "that Antichrist." Particular members may continue to do so, but the church as a corporate entity does not. 

I don't want to assume that you don't know that, so I'll say no more than to say that this revision was made in the PCUSA in 1903 and retained when the OPC adopted the WCF in 1936. The OPC and PCA currently hold to the same version of the Westminster Standards and it does not declare the pope to be antichrist (v. WCF 25.6 and compare with the original), stopping after saying "There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be the head thereof."

Peace,
Alan


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## Unoriginalname (Mar 13, 2013)

I do not think there is anything uncharitable about saying you do not think the roman catholic church represents Christ's church on earth and that the entire process of electing someone to be the voice piece of God on earth is rather obnoxious.


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## Matthew (Mar 13, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> You do realize, I trust, Matthew, that the PCA (together with the OPC and others) no longer confesses that the pope is "that Antichrist." Particular members may continue to do so, but the church as a corporate entity does not.



Thank you Alan. Yes, I should have clarified, I do realize the PCA and OPC have adopted some revisions, the language about the antichrist being one of them, so the church doesn't officially take that stand. It's just language from the original wording, so it's readily available and I've seen people cite to it.

Even our own language about the head of the church is pretty clear in its rejection of the papal office.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 13, 2013)

I agree, Matthew, that our language in the WCF is clear respecting the rejection of the papacy.

I simply thought matters should be clarified with specific reference to the modified language of WCF 25, I.e., we no longer confess the pope as "that Antichrist."

Peace,
Alan


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## yeutter (Mar 13, 2013)

I almost always refer to the "Pope" as the Bishop of Rome, and the Roman Catholic Church as the Church of Rome. I don't wish to be uncharitable, but we should avoid calling them by their pretentious titles.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2013)

I am not afraid to talk about the Pope.


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## Moireach (Mar 14, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I agree, Matthew, that our language in the WCF is clear respecting the rejection of the papacy.
> 
> I simply thought matters should be clarified with specific reference to the modified language of WCF 25, I.e., we no longer confess the pope as "that Antichrist."
> 
> ...



Hi Alan,

Scottish Presbyterian churches all retain this clause. The Church of Scotland of course allows a conscience clause. But the rest; Free Church, Free Presbyterian Church, Free Church (continuing), Reformed Presbyterian Church, and Associated Presbyterian Church, all retain it and require it. The Free Church and (possibly APC) no longer excercise discipline on it so only confess it on paper.

However the the RPCNA no longer confess it either in the US, even though the RPCI and RPCS still do (bit of a problem). It seems very few generally like-minded Presbyterians in the US do in comparison to Scotland.

Was the RPCNA revision linked with that of the PCUSA? I've heard the Netherlands Heritage Reformed and many others in the US don't believe this either. Were there high profile people or works in the US that had a big influence there but didn't cross the pond?


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## One Little Nail (Mar 14, 2013)

Great to hear that the the Scottish Presbyterian Churches haven't treasonously 
amended the old Confession on this point, down here in Australia the main
Presbyterian Church of Australia has also amended it at,at the turn of the 20th
Century, though individual Ministers & Congregants continue to hold it as well as 
a number of smaller Presbyterian Denominations, it is the truth,love without 
the truth has no place & is mere sentimentality & false charity, wasn't Our 
Blessed Lord who Said He hath not come to bring peace but a Sword,& that 
we would be Hated for the Truths sake.The Pope He is that man of sin that sat in the 
Church and shewed him self to be god who the Lord will consume with the 
Spirit of His Mouth & shall destroy with The Brightness of His Coming 2 Thess 2
bring it on I say, recommend the reading of Henry Gratton Guinness' - Romanism
& the Reformation and also Albert Barnes Notes on Daniel Chapter 7 & also on
Revelation 13 as these two dovetail together this will
give a proper & truthful exegetical & expositional Defence of this important 
prophetical truth. Long Live this Unanimously held Reformation Truth. 

P.S. Did u know the registration plates on the Popemobil are BOR-666,the 
BOR standing for "Bishop of Rome" & Beast of Revelation (13) Simultaneously


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## xirtam (Mar 14, 2013)

SolaScriptura said:


> I am not afraid to talk about the Pope.



You might not be, but some chaplains are. After my second or third sermon (whether I should have been preaching or not is another topic altogether) a chaplain came up to me after another service and said that in any of my further sermons *do not* mention the Catholic church or the Pope. BTW, I was preaching through the Five Solas of the Reformation. 

On a different occasion, that same chaplain, although very nice to me, was also shocked when the garrison chaplain told him that his own ecclesiastical denomination *does not* take precedent in particular matters. He was asking the garrison chaplain about a different issue and the chaplain I know asked (as an example), "wouldn't it be alright to preach on homosexuality, if that is what my denomination recognizes as sinful.". The garrison chaplain said no, because it goes against what the military accepts (some words like that). 

Times are a changing in the military. 

So, I am glad to see that you, Sir, are not afraid to talk about the Pope. One day, it might just cost you your job.


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## hammondjones (Mar 14, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> BOR standing for "Bishop of Rome"



His license plate has an English acronym?


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 14, 2013)

Moireach said:


> Was the RPCNA revision linked with that of the PCUSA? I've heard the Netherlands Heritage Reformed and many others in the US don't believe this either. Were there high profile people or works in the US that had a big influence there but didn't cross the pond?



I would have to research when this occured in the RPCNA. Perhaps some of the brethren in the RPCNA could enlighten us. 

It would not, however, be linked, as such, to the PCUSA changes of 1903, as the RPCNA was a part of the line of the Covenanters and Seceders, the main bodies of which in the USA came together in 1858 and joined the PCUSA in 1958 (forming the UPCUSA). The RPCNA, however, stayed out of these unions. And since the continental Reformed (of which the NRC and Heritage group would be a part) have the TFU instead of the WCF, there is no particular expectation that they would confess what is not in their confessions but in the WCF. 

That's a short answer without research!

Peace,
Alan


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## Tripel (Mar 14, 2013)

If the topic of conversation at hand is about the papal office and it's legitimacy, then yes, I'll offer my views. But when people are simply discussing the pope election as a news item, I'm not going to jump in with claims of heresy nor try to make a case for protestantism. Similarly, if someone asks if I saw a recent Yankees game, I'm not going to go on a tirade about the inferiority of baseball and its mockery of athleticism. Instead, I'll simply engage them on the particular game being discussed.

We should always aim to speak truth, though all the while considering context and propriety.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 14, 2013)

Tripel said:


> the inferiority of baseball and its mockery of athleticism.



This is both off-topic and flatly wrong.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 14, 2013)

I am too busy trying win Catholics to the truth. I don't come out and say he is the Anti-Christ. I focus more on the Sola's in my discussions and the Church Fathers to more than a discussion about the Pope being the Anti-Christ. I tried that tactic back in the 80's of confessing the Pope as anti-Christ and it just alienated folks who were Catholic. God has seen fit to use my witness in gaining fruit for His glory. For that I am grateful. One of my best friends I witnessed to in the Navy became a Christian and his family totally cut him off almost. He slowly started winning his brothers to Christ. His Dad was an old Air Force Lifer who was Catholic and ended up in some financial straights and God used that situation to reconcile my buddy and his Dad.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 14, 2013)

18. Many antichrists will be present in the world throughout history. Prior to Christ’s coming the final “man of lawlessness” will be revealed. He will be destroyed by Christ.
1 John 2:18; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:8.

This is the testimony of the RPCNA. I know many who still hold to the 1647 and confess the Pope to be the anti-Christ. I still do. I know Pastors who do. We hold to the 1647 as a rule along with the disagreements noted in our Testimony. I can't speak for all. I am sure there are various opinions.


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## christiana (Mar 14, 2013)

If you fail to bring up the topic of the pope are you denying the truth of scripture?
1 Timothy 2:5 There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 14, 2013)

Actually, I think that the topic of their Parish Priests itself is good place to start when we discuss 1 Timothy 2:5 because the RCC holds that the Priest who offers up the Sacraments and hears Confessions is a mediator.


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## iainduguid (Mar 14, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> P.S. Did u know the registration plates on the Popemobil are BOR-666,the
> BOR standing for "Bishop of Rome" & Beast of Revelation (13) Simultaneously



Actually, a cursory inspection of the internet demonstrates that the usual licence plate for the Popemobile is SCV 1. 

Not saying that we should kiss his ring or anything, but we shouldn't spread urban legends...


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## thbslawson (Mar 14, 2013)

I remember hearing the testimony of a now PCA minister who had actually been in seminary to become a priest when he left the RCC. When he was saved and begin attending a protestant church, the discussions with his parents and family were always quite harsh. He then determined that he would discuss only what is found in the Bible with his family. Thus when they brought up the issue of the Pope he would say "Well, let's just discuss what Scripture teaches," in a gentle way. From his testimony it seemed to go over well, as he always kept returning their attention to Scripture. In the end, several of his family members did come to know Christ and left the RCC.

The root cause of the errors of the RCC is that they do not properly esteem and understand the Scriptures. Maybe it's overly simplistic, but simply do all that you can to change the subject to the Bible.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 14, 2013)

xirtam said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > I am not afraid to talk about the Pope.
> ...



It really is sad, but I'd change "some" to "many." Yet I've stood in the pulpit and preached against Islam, homosexuality, etc.

I have never personally been told NOT to preach against alternative views. But I have been encouraged to preach for my view rather than against another. It is an interesting general truth that as long as one doesn't explicitly denounce something, people won't get agitated even if the position for which I advocate logically implies the negation of the alternative. 

I think *how* we go about speaking "against" other views is key. For instance, some people might think that the only way to talk about the Pope is to be a wide-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth hater who can't stop spewing "he's the son of the devil!" or something like that. To contrast, yesterday several people asked for my thoughts on the pope - most (because of the emphasis in the chaplaincy on encouraging "people of faith") thought I was happy that a pope was selected. Many were surprised when I simply said that because I believe that the Bible teaches there is only one legitimate head of the church - Jesus - I don't accept that the pope's office is legitimate. Which approach is more likely to cause offense?


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## KevinInReno (Mar 14, 2013)

It's a fantastic time to talk about it. As someone who grew up Roman Catholic, I've had ample opportunity to share scripture with those still down the tiber.... Especially working through 1 Timothy... 2 Thess 2 is always good but a little more pointed and they might shut down sooner with that. You always could encourage them to read about the original "ROMAN" church in the book of Romans as well. Use it to plant seeds with the undiscovered elect. 

I know when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin I personally grabbed scripture and randomly opened to Romans 8.... needless to say, I realized through the grace of God and work of the Holy Spirit.... The Gospel Paul was writing about to the original Roman church and the one I believed in the current "Roman" church... were completely different.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 14, 2013)

Whether you subscribe to an original form of the WCF or not, the election of a new pontiff presents amazing opportunities. Pope Francis "began his first day as pope making an early morning visit in a simple Vatican car to a Roman basilica dedicated to the Virgin Mary and prayed before an icon of the Madonna." Talk about opportunities for fruitful discussion of why we are Protestants!

Remember when then-Republican candidate for President, Michelle Bachmann left her WELS Lutheran church because of the pope issue? 



> The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod has been criticized by some Catholics for its views on the institution of the papacy , which it calls the ‘Antichrist’, reported CNN.



When we examine the NT documents, we see predictions that many "antichrists" will arise (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). As someone wisely noted: "All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ." Personally, even as an amillennialist, I'm hoping to miss the biggest, baddest, lastest Antichrist (Dan. 7:8,11, 20-21, 24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18).

Regardless of the spiritual quality of Pope Francis or any other individual who occupies that position, as long as the official teaching of the Roman church accepts Trent and its anathemas of Protestants, then it is proclaiming teachings that are properly "anti-Christ." That still does not make any particular pope "the" Antichrist.


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## One Little Nail (Mar 15, 2013)

hammondjones said:


> One Little Nail said:
> 
> 
> > BOR standing for "Bishop of Rome"
> ...



Yeh when he visits english speaking apostate protestant nations


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## One Little Nail (Mar 15, 2013)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I am too busy trying win Catholics to the truth. I don't come out and say he is the Anti-Christ. I focus more on the Sola's in my discussions and the Church Fathers to more than a discussion about the Pope being the Anti-Christ. I tried that tactic back in the 80's of confessing the Pope as anti-Christ and it just alienated folks who were Catholic. God has seen fit to use my witness in gaining fruit for His glory. For that I am grateful. One of my best friends I witnessed to in the Navy became a Christian and his family totally cut him off almost. He slowly started winning his brothers to Christ. His Dad was an old Air Force Lifer who was Catholic and ended up in some financial straights and God used that situation to reconcile my buddy and his Dad.



Its been said that the Reformation didn't really get going till they began to teach that the pope was Anti-Christ
alongside the teaching of Justification by Faith,though what worked then doesn't necessarily work today as i've
found the same problem when witnessing to rc's they tend to get seriously offended ,though it is the truth as it
is in Christ Jesus but i suppose the gospel truth does bring offence


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 15, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> Its been said that the Reformation didn't really get going till they began to teach that the pope was Anti-Christ
> alongside the teaching of Justification by Faith,though what worked then doesn't necessarily work today as i've
> found the same problem when witnessing to rc's they tend to get seriously offended ,though it is the truth as it
> is in Christ Jesus but i suppose the gospel truth does bring offence



One of the reasons that I believe it was effective back during that time in Germany was because the Parishes in Germany thought they were being taken advantage of as their wealth was being hauled off to Rome and used there instead of in their homeland. Plus the Roman Church was rather suppressive in many areas. People feared the authority of Rome more than they revered it. There were a lot of things that many saw needed to be reformed socially. Even Erasmus desired to see purity restored for social reasons. In other words there probably wasn't a great love for Rome nor the Pope.


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## One Little Nail (Mar 15, 2013)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> 18. Many antichrists will be present in the world throughout history. Prior to Christ’s coming the final “man of lawlessness” will be revealed. He will be destroyed by Christ.
> 1 John 2:18; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:8.
> 
> This is the testimony of the RPCNA. I know many who still hold to the 1647 and confess the Pope to be the anti-Christ. I still do. I know Pastors who do. We hold to the 1647 as a rule along with the disagreements noted in our Testimony. I can't speak for all. I am sure there are various opinions.



yes its the dynasty of the Papacy thats the Anti-Christ with each individual pope being the Anti-Christ with the last one in
that monarchy who will be destroyed this was the unanimous consent of the Reformers


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## One Little Nail (Mar 15, 2013)

what the emphasis with Anti in the the scriptural view of Antichrist is not so much meaning of being in
opposition to Christ but of being in stead of or in place of Jesus Christ, which is what he is doing when 
he claims to be the Head of the Christian Church,the irony in this is that he refers to himself as the 
Vicar of Christ, with Vicar coming from vicarius like in vicarius (substitutionary) atonement,Jesus Christ in
our stead,thus the very title of the pope is the Anti-Christ as this is synonymous with the Vicar of Christ.


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## Matthew (Mar 17, 2013)

Good thoughts all and thank you for sharing. I appreciate the opportunity this latest papal election can bring to conversation, but I want to be careful I don't just raise it for sport because it feels like an easy target.
I was actually able to have a good conversation with a Roman Catholic friend who admitted that he was "still kind of confused" about some of the differences between the RCC and Protestant views (what an opportunity!). Even as a Roman Catholic, he feels the papal office is one of the weaker aspects of the RCC and said more Protestants should target that in their criticisms, since he's dubious about it himself.


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## Matthew (Mar 17, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> what the emphasis with Anti in the the scriptural view of Antichrist is not so much meaning of being in
> opposition to Christ but of being in stead of or in place of Jesus Christ, which is what he is doing when
> he claims to be the Head of the Christian Church,the irony in this is that he refers to himself as the
> Vicar of Christ, with Vicar coming from vicarius like in vicarius (substitutionary) atonement,Jesus Christ in
> our stead,thus the very title of the pope is the Anti-Christ as this is synonymous with the Vicar of Christ.



James White talked about this very thing last week and I thought it was quite powerful. He went through titles given the pope or priests...Holy Father...Alter Christus (another Christ)...Vicar (representative) of Christ. Literally trinitarian language. White's comment was something to the effect that he would not want to stand before a holy God and explain why he allowed someone to use these names to refer to himself. Indeed.


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## One Little Nail (Mar 18, 2013)

Matthew said:


> One Little Nail said:
> 
> 
> > what the emphasis with Anti in the the scriptural view of Antichrist is not so much meaning of being in
> ...



All sounds a wee bit blasphemous, sounds like a case of small man syndrome or should i say 
Little Horn Syndrome Daniel 7:8 in this horn was a mouth speaking great things & as this is the 
same as the beast in Revelation 13 of which it was said having 7 Heads & on its Heads was the 
Name of Blasphemy also Rev 13:5 and a mouth speaking great things was given it,& blasphemies.
Rev 13:6 & it opened its mouth in blasphemy towards God,to blaspheme His Name & His Tabernacle
Whats that saying,Pity the Fool,this just shows the complete bankruptcy of Popery & its Impiety.
Its sad to think of the blindness that is upon the Beast & his worshipers to actually utter such speech


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## dudley (Mar 25, 2013)

Matthew said:


> Alan D. Strange said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize, I trust, Matthew, that the PCA (together with the OPC and others) no longer confesses that the pope is "that Antichrist." Particular members may continue to do so, but the church as a corporate entity does not.
> ...



Amen Matthew, I think it is clear that we as Reformed Protestants know it is Jesus Christ alone who heads his church. I, as many know, am a former Roman catholic and a convert to the Reformed faith and I am now a Presbyterian. I renounce the office of the papacy and the pope as did the Reformers and I renounce my former Roman Catholic faith because it teaches a distorted Gospel. I believe the papacy to be an evil institution that is inspired by Satan himself.


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## One Little Nail (Apr 4, 2013)

Amen Matthew, I think it is clear that we as Reformed Protestants know it is Jesus Christ alone who heads his church. I, as many know, am a former Roman catholic and a convert to the Reformed faith and I am now a Presbyterian. I renounce the office of the papacy and the pope as did the Reformers and I renounce my former Roman Catholic faith because it teaches a distorted Gospel. I believe the papacy to be an evil institution that is inspired by Satan himself.[/QUOTE]


I'd like to second this motion.


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