# How Does Definite Atonement Glorify God?



## Jared (Jun 29, 2010)

How does definite atonement glorify God?

My understanding of definite atonement has been refined over the past two years. I am beginning to see "world" as a limited group.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

This is already limited to those who believe.

Also, before this:

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

Obviously world here doesn't mean everyone who ever lived or even everyone who hears the gospel.

I have two questions about definite atonement.

First of all, how does it glorify God? The way I understand this doctrine is that God would be unjust to punish Jesus for the sins of the non-elect because they are being punished for their sins. So, then you would have Jesus suffering for their sins, and then them suffering for their own sins.

Another aspect of this is: if the cross is all about God being justified in saving sinners the way that John Piper argues in his book "The Justification of God" and if we are to say that Jesus laid down His life for the sheep so that He laid down His life just for me; then, how do we explain how these two concepts work together. I know that everything that God does is for His own glory and the good of His people, but I still don't know how to explain how these two concepts work in tandem.

Secondly, is salvation available to all? I have always believed that it was, even after I came to believe the doctrines of grace. I have heard John Piper say that salvation is available to all. Is it really available to all, or only the elect?


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## Peairtach (Jun 29, 2010)

> Another aspect of this is: if the cross is all about God being justified in saving sinners the way that John Piper argues in his book "The Justification of God" and if we are to say that Jesus laid down His life for the sheep so that He laid down His life just for me; then, how do we explain how these two concepts work together. I know that everything that God does is for His own glory and the good of His people, but I still don't know how to explain how these two concepts work in tandem.



One way it glorifies God is that it reminds us that no-one deserves Christ to die for them. Under the Arminian scheme it seems as if everyone's entitled to Christ's death in some sense, and/or, the "chance" to believe in Christ. As if God is in debt to sinners. The fact that salvation is of God's mercy to the totally undeserving is eclipsed. Under definite atonement it is a work of God from start to finish, our faith is a sovereign gift and nothing is left to "chance". Thus it is thoroughly supernatural, also.



> Secondly, is salvation available to all? I have always believed that it was, even after I came to believe the doctrines of grace. I have heard John Piper say that salvation is available to all. Is it really available to all, or only the elect?



Apart from our own calling and election, we don't know who the elect are, so the secret things of the Lord are none of our business. On the other hand God has commanded that the Gospel be preached indiscriminately, presumably to some who are elect and some who aren't. This is the way God has ordained things. We shouldn't be surprised if there are mysterious things about God's relationship to Man.


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## Jared (Jun 29, 2010)

> Christ's satisfaction of God's wrath against His elect did not merely make all men savable and actually save none;



I agree with this. I think what some people mean when they say that salvation is available to all is that in some way, since they're offered salvation, it must be a real offer. Wayne Grudem makes this argument in his systematic theology.

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

I do agree however that God through the atonement actually does save the elect and that the non-elect don't receive any eternal benefit from the atonement.

But, do they receive any benefits? Is merely being offered salvation and knowing about Christ a benefit?


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## Porter (Jul 9, 2010)

> Secondly, is salvation available to all? I have always believed that it was, even after I came to believe the doctrines of grace. I have heard John Piper say that salvation is available to all. Is it really available to all, or only the elect?



It has been posited by many, even within the reformed tradition, that God desires the salvation of all, yet decrees the salvation of the elect only. I don't believe that this can adequately be demonstrated by scripture, and can only (by the reformed) be affirmed within the sloppy confines of a hermeneutic that allows for paradox as a legitimate category. "Our God (the Triune God of Holy Scripture) is in the heavens, He does whatever He pleases" is the doxological cry of God's covenant people, and their exclamation of wholesome mockery against the blind, deaf, and mute gods of the gentiles.

Also, it is good to qualify this in anticipation of, or response to, the charges of the Arminian who would ask "why preach then". As someone has already mentioned, we can not know who the elect are. We are charged to preach Christ and Him crucified to all who will listen - this glorifies God and is the means (general call) by which God irresistibly draws (effectual call) His elect, according to His accepted and appointed time.


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a wonderful article by Brian Schwertley on Limited (or definite atonement). Follow this link: Limited Atonement by Brian Schwertley


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## MichaelGao (Aug 7, 2010)

Though I do believe that Christ's blood certainly did not fail to achieve its purpose. And all that are intended to be saved are/will be saved.
I find it hard not to see God giving a genuine offer/desire for repentance in passages like Rom 10:21 and Jesus weeping over Jerusalem in Matt 23. Hopefully someone can help me here.

Didn't Calvin mention something like the apparent twofold wills in God is due to our human limitedness in understanding. Does this satisfy you? Or is there another better explanation.

Or I was thinking, maybe you can say: 

God desires all men to repent and be saved in the same sense that a good action is pleasing to him instead of an evil one. E.g. The love of good in general will delight God. Yet He does not decree that all men will repent and love righteousness. 

I dont feel as though "He does whatever He pleases" means that everything that God ordains to take place pleases him intrinsically (evil isn't pleasing, yet God ordained it), but that it pleases Him that He has ordained it for His purpose. We read in Rom 9 that God "endured with much patience the vessels of wrath", suggesting to me that God "in a sense" (I might get smacked for this) endures something that He finds displeasure in. *IN* His Pleasure, He endures something He finds displeasure in. 

So maybe it's not wrong to say God genuinely delights in repentance, yet in His pleasure to He chose not to grant it to all. For the display of His power and glory. 

So that's my attempt to reconcile it in my mind, its probably faulty in places so please correct me if im wrong.


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## jwithnell (Aug 7, 2010)

> I am beginning to see "world" as a limited group.



I'm not sure I agree with that -- the Armenians have taken world to mean every individual in the world. God indeed loves the whole created order; consider how awful earth would be if the fall were allowed to run it's own logical course. Even the non-elect are not permitted to be as depraved as they could be. God shows tremendous love to the earth because man is not as rapacious as he could be if greed were the only motivator, to the elect via salvation in Christ, and the non-elect by limiting sin and by receiving the secondary benefits of God's love to the earth and the elect. That's a pretty broad view of world.



> if the cross is all about God being justified in saving sinners the way that John Piper argues


I haven't read Mr. Piper's book, but saying that God is justified by Christ's work doesn't ring true (and he's usually right on when it comes to redemption). God's _wrath_ is holy and righteous, and Jesus satisfies that wrath for us so we may be justified through the redeemer. And He is glorified in having a redeemed people who will worship Him through eternity.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 7, 2010)

"But, do they receive any benefits? " Yes. The non elect's eternal torment in the lake of fire is "on hold" until the full number of the elect are brought in.


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