# Peoples problem with God/Jesus & the Bible: Intellectual or Spiritual?



## thistle93 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hi! Is peoples problem with God/Jesus & the Bible intellectual or spiritual? To me the answer seems clear. *It is spiritual. * The Bible seems to repeat over and over that this is the problem with unregenerate mankind and no amount of logic and evidence is going to change a persons heart. This does not mean that I think evidence and logic cannot be used in presenting the truth of God/Jesus and the Bible but they should not be primary. 

There are many very smart intellectual liberal intellectuals who *"know"* the Bible very well but they do not truly know God and therefore they do not truly know the Bible.
My favorite verse in the Bible speaks to matter: (1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV) *For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.*

So I wonder why so much of apologetic is geared towards ones using of logic and evidence to convince someone, instead of laying out the truth according to the Bible and trusting in the sovereign power of God to do His work. Now I understand why Arminian leaning Christians rely primarily on these things because their free will theology leads them to but what puzzles me is that there are many reformed Christians who also embrace this type of apologetic. This is why to me the presuppositional apologetic view is the one most in line with Scripture. Not that one cannot take from other apologetic perspectives.

Thoughts? Any books you recommend that touch on topic? 


For His Glory-
Matthew


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## MarieP (Nov 16, 2012)

thistle93 said:


> Hi! Is peoples problem with God/Jesus & the Bible intellectual or spiritual?



I don't think you can separate the two. We are body-soul entities, and every part of us is affected by the fall.

Presuppositionalism makes the most sense to me too. Logic is useful in that we can point out that there is no such thing as logic without the existence of God (Greg Bahsen argued as much in his famous debate with Gordon Stein). The problem with using evidence, as you point out, is that they know all the evidence (Romans 1) but reject it out of hand. The problem isn't that they can't believe (ie not enough evidence), but that they won't believe.


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## Poimen (Nov 16, 2012)

Our problem with God and His Word is both intellectual and spiritual since man is 'totally depraved' i.e. there is no part of his being that is not affected by the fall. We see this intellectual aspect of the fall in Romans 1:18-21 & 8:5-7. His mind, which processes and receives the 'information' or evidence of God found in himself and in creation, automatically sends it through his ‘man affirming’ and ‘God denying sieve.’ Consequently, he cannot believe or obey as he should. Thus he needs "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). 

So while I agree that "no amount of logic and evidence is going to change a person's heart" the mind, heart, soul and body are called to repentance and faith. And even fallen man can intellectually process the gospel (in terms of the claims, message and assertions) and this is the first step to true and saving faith:*

Heidelberg Catechism

*


> Question 21: What is true faith?
> Answer: True faith is not only a knowledge and conviction that everything God reveals in his Word is true; it is also a deep-rooted assurance, created in me by the Holy Spirit through the gospel, that, out of sheer grace earned for us by Christ, not only others, but I too,have had my sins forgiven, have been made forever right with God, and have been granted salvation.


* 
*Having said that, the gospel, for the most part, is not a defense of the faith but a proclamation of the truth of God. Thus the gospel that changes man’s mind is a supernatural work.

On the other hand, I do think that logic and evidence may be used in apologetics not as a means to convert people but to shut the mouth of the fool. It may also be the means that God providentially uses to begin to move the mind and heart of the fool to realize his foolishness (see 1 Corinthians 1:25ff.).


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