# 3 simple questions...



## jogri17 (May 30, 2009)

How have the 3 forms of unity (OR THE WESTMINSTER STANDARDS FOR PRESBYTERIANS HERE) helped or harmed your spiritual walk with Christ in general? Do you see them as a source to devotion (less than the bible of course), just some obscure rules, or something else?


Why do you think others should read them (Reformed and non-Reformed)?

Why are they important/meaningful to you?


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 30, 2009)

As a Baptist, Some of the best collective theology this side of heaven comes from those documents. Do you understand why they were written?


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## YXU (May 30, 2009)

I have a testimony to you. An former monk in west China who lived in a rock cave to seek communion with God and forgiveness of sins. He put dust into his food to train temperance and glasses on his sheet to control his passion. He was in great agony for the guilt of his sins and about the assurance of salvation. 

God used Ursinus's Catechism and the Shorter Catechism to help him find the true living path to God, and then he left his cave, broke his relationship with the Roman church and got married. He is now one of the leading teacher in reformed theology in the west part of the country. His name is John Wang.

Many were richly blessed by Ursinus's Catechism.


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## historyb (May 30, 2009)

jogri17 said:


> How have the 3 forms of unity (OR THE WESTMINSTER STANDARDS FOR PRESBYTERIANS HERE) helped or harmed your spiritual walk with Christ in general? Do you see them as a source to devotion (less than the bible of course), just some obscure rules, or something else?



I count 4 questions 

They have neither helped nor hurt my walk in general, I never knew about them before I came here. I see them the same as the Apostle's creed, putting together what groups of Christians believe




jogri17 said:


> Why do you think others should read them (Reformed and non-Reformed)?



For the Reformed so they can see the similarities between them and for the non Reformed so they hopefully can get a better theology



jogri17 said:


> Why are they important/meaningful to you?



I can't say they are particularly important, yet I reference the Westminster quite a bit in other discussions around the web. I reckon I would say that it is important as a resource to have a window on reformed theology


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## Oecolampadius (May 30, 2009)

From childhood to early adulthood, I had gone from one church to another that did not recognize any of the reformed standards. That period of my life was marked by confusion when it comes to theology for none of the pastors in the evangelical churches I went to were truly consistent with the biblical standard. I had met pastors who taught the TULIP but used the sinner's prayer in evangelism. I had seen my own family fall apart and not once did our church step in to provide counsel and even discipline us when we had clearly apostasized.

Now that I am in the reformed church whose ministers uphold these standards, I am assured that these men will strive for biblical consistency in both doctrine and practice. I am also assured that if I fall into error that requires discipline, my brethren will provide such service for the confession calls for it.

I cannot imagine how the Westminster standards would ever be harmful for me. They are like guideposts to my pilgrim journey for they are not merely theological formulations, they are historic documents that remind me always that faithful Christians have labored and suffered for the gospel of their Lord. They are the rail guards that keep me from falling into error.

And, how can the truths that God revealed to us ever not be devotional? These Confessions and catechisms are not mere propositions, they are truths that God has blessed us with which calls for the attention of our whole being.


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## jogri17 (May 30, 2009)

Yes i know the historical context of all those confessions. I want to start putting together a collection of these testimonies in a small volume and take out everyones names and translate them into French. So everyone give a response!


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## Rangerus (May 30, 2009)

This is a very interesting question. Most Baptists I know do not hold to any confession at all. Many have never even heard of the Southern Baptists Baptist Faith and Message 2000, let alone the Westminster or London Confession. Of course ministers, teachers and long time Baptists have heard of them, but I'm referring to the regular lay folk in the pews. I rarely if ever hear anyone at our church ever talk about the BF&M or mention confessions at all. Yet some how the Baptists have managed to stay unified. 

I think if they were surveyed individually we would find the theology of the folks sitting in our pews to be all over the board.

As for me, I have always followed the BF&M, and thanks to this board now hold to the London Baptist Confession. And refer to them often. I find the theology in them to be quite remarkable and use it as a teaching reference tool in my Bible Studies. Somebody has got to help those Baptists learn theology.


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## Scott1 (May 30, 2009)

> Book of Church Order
> Presbyterian Church in America
> 
> Preface
> ...



The Westminster Standards are subject and subordinate to the Scriptures. They contain the summary of the doctrine of Scripture that we as a church confess.

Every statement and proposition of doctrine in the Westminster Confession of Faith is footnoted with Scripture proofs to support the assertion.

This marvelous summary of many deep doctrines puts them in the context of interpretation by the whole of Scripture. We owe a deep debt of gratitude to our forefathers in the faith for doing this.

More-and-more my wife and I use them for practical application in life and for contending for the gospel and biblical principles with others. As a concise summary, they help greatly in dispelling the many errors of interpreting one verse in isolation or in refuting wrong imaginations of the person and work of Christ.

When discussing or contending for a Christian doctrine or belief, they are a "bazooka" compared to assertions made in isolation or from unclear context in one passage of Scripture.

It is particularly helpful to study and meditate on the Scripture proofs as a basis for right understanding of God's revealed Word and have greatly helped us in this regard.


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## jwithnell (May 30, 2009)

When I first came to Christ, I was extremely upset with the church I was reared in (a mainline Presbyterian church). I was extremely upset that it never taught what was contained in the Westminster Confession other than to give lip service to a couple of the Shorter Catechism questions. I instinctively understood that the confession helped to concisely state what the scriptures teach and gives an agreed-upon standard for the church.


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## Spinningplates2 (May 30, 2009)

I think that thet WCF is the greatest thing men have ever written and besides the Bible the most important.

1. I see it as a great time saver for me as great men have already researched the topics for me.

2. I think that everyone should read the WCF and know people who have become reformed because of the footnotes and proof texts.

3. They are important to me because they connect me with Christians across many hundreds of years.


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## Scott1 (May 30, 2009)

One of other aspect of being a member of a covenant community with a confession of faith- it is one of the basic principles of reformed theology.

The unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement.

This is both a unifying force in the church and a basis for accountability. The "broadly evangelical" view might be that the church is a loose association of consenting adults, each independently assessing doctrine and doing what seems right from that in their own eyes.

It is comforting to know what your church officially professes, what your officers have vowed they believe, and what doctrine the covenant community is working toward understanding, believing and living their lives by. There tends to be more of a basis of unity in doing that, less faction, and more of a sense of community responsibility and involvement with a binding confession of doctrine.


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## JM (May 30, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> As a Baptist, Some of the best collective theology this side of heaven comes from those documents. Do you understand why they were written?



I couldn't agree more...they are succinct but deep...


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## Hippo (May 30, 2009)

jogri17 said:


> helped or harmed your spiritual walk with Christ in general?




I am always uncomfortable with this concept in this context, while at the same time I do apreciate that it does refer to important issues. 

Personal experience should always come second to truth and the teaching of the Church, these objective factors often can clash with our subjective experience precisely because our subjective experience not only may be wrong but probably will be due to our sinful nature.


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## Idelette (May 30, 2009)

I don't believe the Confessions have hindered me in any way....they have been informative, encouraging, and challenging to my faith and reliance upon the Word! I thank God for the men and the wisdom that He has given throughout the ages! As Joel mentioned, they have been useful guides protecting us throughout time! As one of the studies of the Heidelberg says....

"Many prefer to search out the truths of Scripture themselves. Yet there is far too much for one generation to find. It would be like one man trying to empty a rich mine by himself. Though he should labor throughout his life, he cannot exhaust the mine of its wealth. Much would remain hidden. So also we would miss a great amount of truth if we should abandon the truths which our fathers have uncovered for us. As it is, you young people are very rich, for your fathers have passed on to you a rich inheritance." -Arthur van Delden


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## A.J. (Jun 1, 2009)

> How have the 3 forms of unity (OR THE WESTMINSTER STANDARDS FOR PRESBYTERIANS HERE) helped or harmed your spiritual walk with Christ in general? Do you see them as a source to devotion (less than the bible of course), just some obscure rules, or something else?



I see the Reformed Confessions as tools enabling me to understand the Bible better and in a systematic way. So when I am doing a research on the the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity, for instance, I can simply look at the Scripture references of the Westminster Confession or the Belgic Confession. 



> Why do you think others should read them (Reformed and non-Reformed)?



The Reformed should read the Reformed Confessions because they have to know what they believe and practice. By studying the Reformed Confessions, they are also better equipped in explaining the truths of the Christian Faith to other people. The same holds true for people who are newly Reformed or are in the process of reforming. 

The non-Reformed should read them because that is the safest way for them to know and understand what the Reformed Faith really is. Reformed Theology has been subject to severe misrepresentation from its opponents. For example, many people today think that Reformed believers are "Hyper-Calvinists" and that Covenant Theology is "Replacement Theology." These ideas are obviously false, and the way to correct them is for these misguided men and women to read and study the Reformed Confessions. 



> Why are they important/meaningful to you?



They are important and meaningful to me because I am from a background that highly prizes the subjective and emotional experiences of people over against intelligent communication of truth. So my study of the Reformed Confessions has been a liberating and delightful endeavour for me. Heresy today spreads in evangelical circles because of doctrinal ignorance (as was the case in my former evangelical church). One of the reasons for this is the almost universal abhorrence of the use of creeds and confessions. I used to be a victim of this kind of thinking until I learned about the Reformed Confessions. Upon reading them, I also gradually realized the importance of knowing not only our theology, but also our history. As confessional Protestants, we do recognize the fact that we are heirs of the Protestant Reformation and of the Church of the apostolic period.


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## jogri17 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hippo said:


> jogri17 said:
> 
> 
> > helped or harmed your spiritual walk with Christ in general?
> ...



There is nothing wrong with talking about the subjective in my opinion as long as we are clear that the confessions are not true because of the impact rather becausy there are the correct summary of the teachings of Sacred Scripture. The Nadere Reformatie  (Dutch Further Reformation) ''produced some of the finest, most profound literature in the Protesttant tradiction. Furthermore, because the Dutch Reformed piety of the 17th century orthodoxy and included among its founders and exponents several erudite orthodox theologians--such as Gisbertus Voetius, Petrus van Mastrict, and Johannes Hoornbeck, ect... the works of the Dutch further Reformation do not give any evidence of the kind of antagonism between theology and piety that belonged to th Pietist phase of German Lutheranism. Rather, the proponents of the Nadere Reformatie offered a balance of doctrine and piety as well as theology and life that has seldom been equaled in church History'' (Beeke &Pederson p. 740 in reference to a statement put out by the Dutch Reformed Translation Society).

You do not have to reject the subjective benefits of the objective truths of Reformed Theology which may or may not conclude feelings or experiences in relation to the Reformed Confessions. 




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1. Beeke, Joel , and Randall Pederson . Meet the Puritans: With a Guide to Modern Reprints. 2ns ed. Grand Rapids, Michigan : Reformation Heritage Books , 2006. Print.


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## Gord (Jun 15, 2009)

Honestly, I had never read them until I joined PB.
I have been referring to them frequently of late will doing my studies on The North American Reformed Seminary courses.


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