# After Darkeness, Light,...then depression



## alwaysreforming (Dec 7, 2004)

I find it difficult to believe that my experience was unusual. 

Can many of you others relate to the fact that after experiencing those wonderful Reformational truths of God's sovereignty and the doctrines of grace, that afterwards you became depressed?

Suddenly the church you are worshipping in is devoid of the Gospel? 
The music you used to love so much seems irreverent and shallow? 
The fellowship you used to have seems empty and vain? 
The other believers you used to have so much in common with seem apathetic to the weightiest parts of Christianity?

It makes one feel totally alone and almost without hope that vibrancy will be restored to your church experience. (I hope this does not sound self-righteous; I'm only describing how it FEELS.)

Well, this is what I went through and it took well over a year before I was able to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

I was wondering if this is not common to ALL. What's been your experience(s)?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 7, 2004)

Yes, yes, yes, Christopher! You're spilling my guts.

The Doctrines of Grace ruined my life!

I used to be involved in church leadership, I was the sound/video production tech of the church, I was a teacher and musician/singer/songwriter.

Puritan brother Jim Jarantowski (JWJ) came to our church and began teaching a series called, "Rediscovering the Glory of God in the 20th Century".

I was teaching another class so I didn't get to go to his. I said to myself, 'What a nebulous, say nothing title of christian double-speak'.

After about a year I found out he was taping his lectures so I started listening. Everything he said made me angry. I decided he was just trying to provoke people and make trouble.

But then.... I began to look up the scripture texts he was directing us to and I found out that the things that made me angry were not coming from Jim, but from the Holy Word itself.

The lights came on and my life as I new it was ruined. Nothing is the same as it was. We are in a different church, our family changed, I stepped out of my music ministry, I stopped teaching until I can get re-oriented. 

Everthing used to be so simple now everything is made new. I was such a happy arminian. I can't say I'm happy now BUT, I have the joy of knowing that I have discovered the Glory of God. I was blind, now I see.


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## daveb (Dec 7, 2004)

My experience is much the same.

Before I came to embrace calvinism I was deemed "biblically sound" and was able to teach and preach quite freely. After I embraced the doctrines of grace I was seen as "questionable" and no longer had many ministry opportunities. I was shut out by other Christian friends who were arminian and despised calvinism. 

I felt that God has revealed wonderful things to me and then quickly found I was out of step with much that was going on around me.

I used to not be offended by any sermon or song...now it is hard to find songs that are sound and sermons that are solid.

It is hard finding a church that holds to the doctrines of grace, in my experience it is nearly impossible.

In addition to calvinism the RPW also is changing many things for me. The more I study and accept it the harder it is to go to church and not notice things. Right now my church's sanctuary looks like the Wal-Mart christmas department exploded and ended up on the walls. Before this never used to bother me.

However, would I go back to the never-offended, happy-go-lucky way I was in before? Not a chance.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by daveb]


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 7, 2004)

My experience was slightly different, but much the same too.

I was an unhappy Arminian! I couldn't come to grips with why others in my church and spiritual life did not see things as I did. I was called judgmental, and a pharisee. I was banned from so called "Christian" message boards and internet sites. My full work place bible study dwindled in numbers as I was acused of "putting God in a box".

I was pretty depressed and VERY frustrated! 

Then somehow (I forget how) I came upon The Puritan Board! So many seemed to be saying the things that got me into trouble with fellow believers. So many believed in the moral laws of GOd that got me the nic-name "Pahrisee or judgmental".

Now I have been pretty happy! This board gave me friends who not only thought like me, but were more educated in these thoughts that I was! I also found a new church through suggestions from this board!

What I struggle with now, is trying to get SOME of my old friends to accept the doctrines of Grace even though I know I can't do that. I want so badly to "bring over" some of my friends and loved ones. I am having a hard time stopping.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by houseparent]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Adam,
Don't ever stop; just re-tool your approach.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 7, 2004)

Here's the big question. I believe that church fellowship is better than no fellowship and that a bad church is better than no church.

"Let us not forsake the assembling together as is the habit of some..."

My wife and I have been attending an OPC church and we love the pastor and most of the folks, (have some trouble with the Dutch cuz we're gentiles, I mean non-dutch) , the sermons are sound expositional preaching always from the text. We are still very much Baptist and so we struggle a bit with the government style and the Trinity Hymnal, (music not the words).

We checked out a new EPC last weekend. Nice hungry folks but that service didn't have one single element of worship in it. I'm not gung- ho about the RWP, I only lean heavily toward it, but this was just sad. 

There's a Baptist church in town, the pastor thinks he's reformed. He calls himself a six pointer but actually he invented 2 points to get rid of limited atonement. I sat through his sermon on the evils of alchohol. 

Pastor Way is too far from Wisconsin. (If Phillip would come to Janesville I would almost give up beer....... well, maybe just lagers.)

We are in a sad state. I'm not looking for the perfect church, just one whose worship isn't man-centered.

I don't know how to set up the vote thing but it would be interesting to know who of us is happy with the church we are attending. 

Can we be happy in a frilly church? or.... 

Is ecclesiastical discontent a permanent attribute of the modern day puritan?

(First time I ever I have been moved to use the wall banging icon.)


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## cupotea (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Here's the big question. I believe that church fellowship is better than no fellowship and that a bad church is better than no church.
> 
> Is ecclesiastical discontent a permanent attribute of the modern day puritan?
> ...



Did you enjoy it? Why did I ask, of course you did! 

Anyway, I don't have it on me right now, but in the Institutes Calvin says that a bad church is better than no church. He argues that as long as a church celebrates the sacrament and (here's the problem I guess) good teachings, you should accept it, despite other problems it might have (like having an exploded Walmart on the walls  ). I guess if you're too skeptical, you might end up, well, being permanently dissatisfied, when you should really be looking at what is most important. So, yeah, bad church=better than nothing.


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## Ivan (Dec 7, 2004)

I find this thread intriguing. I find myself in a similar situation. The church where I attend is a warm and loving church. They have been great to me during times of great trouble and I love them for it. 

However, I must admit that the worship services at our church DRIVE...ME...DISTRACTION. Too much "sharing". Too many "praise" songs. A flippant attitude among some during the worship. And sermons lasting no more than 20 minutes, although the content isn't that bad. 

On the last point, the pastor says that the congregation's attention span won't handle anymore than 20 minutes. I tell him, "Teach them to do better." 

Our morning worship starts at 10:45 and generally ends at Noon. See a problem? I really don't care how long the service last, I really don't. However, how do you only get a 20 minutes sermon when the service last for an hour and fifteen minutes? 

ARRGGHHH! Anyway, I don't really have an alternative. I will be starting a Bible study class next month and we'll see how that goes. The pastor is fully aware of my beliefs and that I will teach them, so that is encouraging.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 7, 2004)

I feel your pain Ivan.
The churches these days remind me of the Israelites of old. Not content to be the people of God and people of the Word they wanted what all the tribes around them wanted.

The Canaanites have a Praise and Worship band, we want one. The Amalekites are studying Purpose Driven Church, we should study it.

I feel sorry for young pastors today, or older newly reformed pastors. You may have a vision to teach the glory and majesty of God Most High but the people want to be like the guys down the street.


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## JohnV (Dec 7, 2004)

For me it is entirely different. Yet the same thing applies. Back in the 80's the lights started to come on, the doors started to open. But I didn't come to the Reformed faith, I was already there and just beginning to find a new depth to it that I had not understood before. But ever since then it has been a steady disassociation with the formal church. The denomination I was a part of was drifting quickly into liberal theology, making partnership/membership more than difficult. They made it not just uncomfortable but impossible for those who wanted to remain faithful. How do you find a happy medium beween ordained women and opposing ordaining women? How can there be a peaceful relationship between Evolutionary theology and Biblical theology? What do you do, just ignore it, and hope it goes away? These things have a way of eating into the very fabric of all the relationships. And they did. 

Was it change in me that precipitated all this? Well, maybe I understood better what was going on, and refused to go along with the crowd, but that doesn't explain the sudden antagonisms. I think it was more the change that was going on in the church that was the cause of this breaking of fellowship. They made it a dictum of their terms or not at all. They were happy enough that we, as dissenters, not change our beliefs as long as we allowed them theirs'. So that meant that we would have ordained women, but we didn't have to agree? What kind of solution was that? It just meant, "my way or the highway", but in more diplomatic terms. 

I wonder if that isn't a more common experience than we may think? Maybe we're not the one who are doing the alienating by adopting the Reformed faith. After all, don't we confess that we, by nature, are prone to hate God and His truth? Would it not be a very common reaction that we find opposition immediately upon finding and adopting the Reformed faith?


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 7, 2004)

> Would it not be a very common reaction that we find opposition immediately upon finding and adopting the Reformed faith?
> 
> 
> > From my experiences I would say most definately!


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## Ivan (Dec 7, 2004)

> Amalekites are studying Purpose Driven Church, we should study it.



Interesting you should mention this. My church isn't RICH enough to do PDC, but a number wanted to do the Life book. I stated my opinion clearly. We did not study the book. Thankfully, I do have SOME influence.

BTW, maxdetail, I see you're come Janesville. Are you aware of any Reformed churches in the Lake Geneva area or in the western regions of Kenosha or Racine counties?


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## Scot (Dec 7, 2004)

I was introduced to the doctrines of grace when I wasn't attending a church. I was one of those "carnal christians" (in other words not saved). I spent the first eleven years of my life in independant Baptist churches and "accepted" Christ when I was like 5 years old. Thoughout my teenage years until the age of about 22, I always thought I was a christian but I didn't live like one AT ALL. 

When I first heard about unconditional election, I thought "This can't be right, I'll go get my Bible and prove it wrong." So I went and dug out my old Scofield Bible and went to work. The Lord used the doctrines of grace to get me into the word. Once into the word, I became convicted and the rest is history.

I guess you could say that for awhile I was depressed. At first, I was excited to tell everyone in my family about the truth that I found. When nobody listened, I became kinda frustrated. It was also frustrating because I didn't know where to look for a church. Every church that I knew of was arminian. I didn't go to church until about a year after that when I found a small OPC that was meeting in the local YMCA.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 7, 2004)

Ivan, I don't know of any Reformed Churches near you. There is a Baptist church that posts sermons on SermonAudio.com. These are usually reformed. This one is in Woodstock, Illinois. Not too far away.



http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=hbc


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## Tirian (Dec 7, 2004)

Christopher,

Sounds so familiar, my wife and I have been feeling like this for the last 6 months. We have found it especially hard on our relationships with family and friends who just don't share the same views we do now. In fact, I think they think we are weird!

Psalm 69 - 
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, 
And an alien to my mother's children; 
9 Because zeal for Your house has eaten me up, 
And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.

I thank God that he has revealed the truth to us, though it seems difficult (humanly speaking) at times.

Matthew

[Edited on 8-12-2004 by Matthew Glover]


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## A.J.A. (Dec 8, 2004)

Ivan --

Not in the western part of the county, but in Kenosha itself: http://www.templebaptistkenosha.org/

That's where I go.


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## Ivan (Dec 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by A.J.A._
> Ivan --
> 
> Not in the western part of the county, but in Kenosha itself: http://www.templebaptistkenosha.org/
> ...



A.J.A.,

Really?! I'm very aware of Temple Church, but not with their present pastor. I actually taught a seminary extension class there years ago on Christian History.

I'm very involved in my present church and would like to guide it to a more Reformed perspective...and my church is about one minute away! Temple is at least a half hour away.

Temple is known for their Calvinism in our local association of Southern Baptist churches....and that's not in a good way!! I'll have to "sneak away" some Sunday and attend. Do they have evening services?


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## Ivan (Dec 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Ivan, I don't know of any Reformed Churches near you.  There is a Baptist church that posts sermons on SermonAudio.com. These are usually reformed. This one is in Woodstock, Illinois. Not too far away.



Yes, I'm aware of that church. It's another Southern Baptist Church, probably about 45 minutes away. Still, I want so much to do what I can to help the church where I am now.


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## edwardian289 (Dec 13, 2004)

My experience was similar as well. I went through my own personal "reformation"  when I was 16 years old. Once I became "calvinist", I started visiting a new church that preached the doctrines of grace, people at my previous church approached my family and warned them not to let me go because the pastor (at the reformed church) was a "calvinist" and that meant that he was a cult leader and that "calvinists" don't believe in missions.

The funny thing about it is that that was my previous pastor expressing those kinds of concerns, as well as some other members.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 13, 2004)

The Arminian God is an impotent God, and hence, not the God we know who has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. Let God be God and every mouth remain silent before Him.


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## edwardian289 (Dec 13, 2004)

Would you say that Arminians are worshipping a false God? 

I've always wondered about that.


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## Scot (Dec 13, 2004)

> Would you say that Arminians are worshipping a false God?
> 
> I've always wondered about that.



If they're truly worshipping the god of their theology. 

What I mean is, I think that many haven't really thought things through. Even though the theology that they've been taught is false, most would never dream of giving themselves the credit for their salvation. Didn't Spurgeon make a comment like "Many people are more orthodox in their devotions than in their theology"? (or something like that)

I often wonder about this myself.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Dec 19, 2004)

Most could be said to be guilty of creating an idol or false image of God in their minds and worshipping that, in ignorance or not, rather than worshipping and loving the TRUE God as revealed in Scripture. Thankfully, God is merciful to undeserving scum like men, keeping for himself a remnant of every generation that will not "bow the knee to Baal".


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## Tirian (Dec 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by edwardian289_
> Would you say that Armenians are worshipping a false God?
> 
> I've always wondered about that.




We can't generalise like that. I think of those in my family and friends who genuinely love the Lord, but who are genuinely wrong in parts of their theology. I don't think they worship a false god, yet they have not yet come to an adequate understanding of His word. Consider Apollos:

"Acts 18. 24 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor* and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."

Now I'm not suggesting Apollos was Armenian!! I'm just suggesting that some people have not received adequate instruction and are still as yet, babes in Christ. From that position, the nature of their church systems allows them to rise to stations of importance - regular preaching and eldership. So the problem of poor teaching & poor understanding is perpetuated from generation to generation.

Some do worship a false god though, and protect their belief's vigorously - they worship, defend and polish their "self-righteousness." In doing so they will find themselves thrust outside in the day of judgment. But this is not the case of all Armenians.


Matthew*


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