# Does Baptism Make You a Christian?



## Quatchu

I was listening to an audio sermon from a person who is Reformed this past week. He said that Baptism makes you a Christian, and that it united us to Christ. It was a passing remark. Does anyone know what this means, is this statement within the confines of the confessions?


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## Jack K

Faith in Christ, of the sort that's accomapnied by a repentant heart, is what makes you a Christian. The problem is that these are internal happenings, and both the church and the world need some external and observable basis by which to consider a person a Christian or not, since we can't effectively look into hearts. Also, a testimony from God to the union with Christ brought about by faith is part of the believer's experience, confidence and comfort.

Much of evangelicalism has latched on to the "Have you said THE PRAYER?" basis. But this too-easy and church-not-necessary test puts the trust in the personal incantation rather than in Jesus. It's crazy to think one joins himself to Jesus without joining himself to Jesus' church. And the "sinner's prayer" doesn't really give the comfort many people look to it for, since it's grounded in the utterances of men rather than in the declaration of God.

The Bible gives us Baptism as a point of entry into the church, which is where Christians gather in Christ to encourage each other, hear God's Word together, and do the work of Jesus' Kingdom. So a baptism (properly done, by a church that then brings you in) makes you a Christian in the sense that the church recognizes you as one and you show everyone that you are one. And as a word from God, it is a sign and a seal of the union with Christ that you have by faith.

In a world without baptism, we would just be guessing who might have faith. With baptism, we still admit we don't know hearts and can't be sure who's elect, but at least we have a biblical, observable standard for saying who's in and out of the Christian community as best we can define it now.

****

The sermon you heard might have meant it in a good sense or might have meant it in some other, misguided sense. There are plenty of views floating around. We'd need more background.


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## Edward

Quatchu said:


> a person who is Reformed this past week. He said that Baptism makes you a Christian,



I hope that this is taken out of context, because standing alone it sounds really unorthodox, and certainly not in keeping with the Confession.


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## Peairtach

Baptism makes you a Christian in the sense that you are solemnly and visibly admitted to the Covenant of Grace and the Christian Church.

It is regeneration, which baptism points to, that makes you a true Christian. Christ could thus baptise you in the Spirit before your water baptism, at the time of your water baptism, after your water baptism, or never.



> The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (*not* the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (I Peter 3:21, KJV, emphasis added)





> Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22, KJV)



To have your body washed with pure water is only a symbol of the internal reality needed of having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience through Christ baptising us in the Holy Spirit and His blood being made efficacious to us.

There is a sacramental union between the symbol and the thing signified such that when one is being spoken of the other is also being spoken of. But in the above text Peter also makes clear the distinction between them.

E.g. the Apostle Paul, below, doesn't discuss whether he is talking of the inner reality of baptism or the external symbol or both, but it is clear from Scripture that the external symbol does not itself save, but without faith makes the recipients more responsible.



> Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:3-5, KJV)



Like circumcision, however, water baptism indicates that we are in an external relationship to God, as were the Jews, which makes us more responsible than those who are outside this covenant administration and don't have our privileges.

See e.g. Louis Berkhof's _Systematic Theology_ on the "Duality of the Covenant"; probably somewhere online.

E.g. Roman Catholics and those in Liberal Protestant churches are Christians or "Christians" but how many of them are true Christians?

How many who attend Reformed churches, and are solemnly and visibly accepted as Christians by water baptism, have the internal reality of also being baptised internally? Hopefully many do.

The Pope's a Christian, and we can refer to him and his followers as such, but is he a real Christian i.e. true Christian? In some company it might be misleading to speak of certain Christians/"Christians" as Christians.


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## J. Dean

A reformed commentator I heard (the name escapes me at the moment, might have been Horton) said that there is an accompanying grace with baptism that sort of "retro" kicks in AFTER conversion. Not sure what to make of that. But I believe he based it upon Calvin's reasoning that the sacraments were more than merely symbolic.


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## Contra_Mundum

WCF
26:1 All saints that are *united to Jesus Christ* their Head by His Spirit and *by faith*, have fellowship with Him in His graces, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory... 

"Faith" and "Baptism" are not the same thing.

WSC Q30. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased Christ?
A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by *working faith in us*, and *thereby uniting us to Christ* in our *effectual calling*.

"Effectual calling" and "Baptism" are not the same thing.

WLC Q66: What is that *union* which the elect have with Christ?
A: The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, *whereby they are* spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, *joined to Christ* as their head and husband; which is *done in their effectual calling*.

Any mention of baptism there?

WLC Q65: What special benefits do the members of the *invisible* church enjoy by Christ?
A: The members of the *invisible* church by Christ enjoy *union* and communion with him in grace and glory.

Baptism unites a person to the VISIBLE church. For the distinction between the visible and invisible church, and degrees of privilege for those within, see WLC Q.s 61-64.

WLC Q165: What is Baptism?
A: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ has ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself, of remission of sins by his blood, and regeneration by his Spirit; of adoption, and resurrection unto everlasting life; and whereby the *parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church*, and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord’s.

Not one mention of union. Distinction made between visible and invisible.


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## Randy in Tulsa

I think the efficacy of baptism isn't limited to uniting a person to the visible church, as all the means of grace are made effectual for the salvation of the elect and because it is Christ working in us by his Spirit that makes each of them effective. From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?

A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.

From the Westminster Shorter Catechism in Modern English (edited by Rowland Ward):

Q. 91. How do the sacraments become effective means of salvation?
A. The sacraments become effective means of salvation not because of any power in them or in him who administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of his Spirit in those who receive them in faith.

An often overlooked teaching about baptism is how it may be be improved by us to whom it has been administered. From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 167. How is our baptism to be improved by us?
A. The needful but much neglected duty of improving our baptism, is to be performed by us all our life long, especially in the time of temptation, and when we are present at the administration of it to others; by serious and thankful consideration of the nature of it, and of the ends for which Christ instituted it, the privileges and benefits conferred and sealed thereby, and our solemn vow made therein; by being humbled for our sinful defilement, our falling short of, and walking contrary to, the grace of baptism, and our engagements; by growing up to assurance of pardon of sin, and of all other blessings sealed to us in that sacrament; by drawing strength from the death and resurrection of Christ, into whom we are baptized, for the mortifying of sin, and quickening of grace; and by endeavoring to live by faith, to have our conversation in holiness and righteousness, as those that have therein given up their names to Christ; and to walk in brotherly love, as being baptized by the same Spirit into one body.


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## Rufus

Baptism puts you in the covenant. I assume that in the scheme of the visible church, your in it if your baptized. The_ invisible _church exists within the visible church, but is made up of true believers who have put their faith and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins.


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## Contra_Mundum

Randy in Tulsa said:


> I think the efficacy of baptism isn't limited to uniting a person to the visible church, as all the means of grace are made effectual for the salvation of the elect and because it is Christ working in us by his Spirit that makes each of them effective. From the Westminster Larger Catechism:
> 
> Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?
> 
> A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made *effectual to the elect* for their salvation.
> 
> From the Westminster Shorter Catechism in Modern English (edited by Rowland Ward):
> 
> Q. 91. How do the sacraments become effective means of salvation?
> A. The sacraments become effective means of salvation not because of any power in them or in him who administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of his Spirit *in those who receive them in faith*.



The point to be made in reaction to the improper or unguarded expressions referred to in the OP, is that the means of grace are effectual for the *faithful and elect.* In other words, the Q.s that you quote (to which I added *BOLB* notice) are part of the coherent _system of doctrine_ that is expressed in a unity throughout the Standards.

Bottom line: Bare baptism doesn't unite a person to Christ, even if it does make them a _public_ Christian. And neither is there any Confessional statement or implication behind the assertion that it does, and some that expressly state otherwise. (Please see my post #6).


Perhaps I may add, by way of concession, that Baptism may indeed prove to be one element of one elect individual's whole complex of blessings, by which he is effectually called. But this is surely not the same as equating the two, or conflating the lesser and the greater aspects.


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## Randy in Tulsa

Thank you, Rev. Buchanan. Well stated. There are many of us who, being baptized and raised in the church, do not recall a time in which we did not believe in Christ and trust in his word. In that sense, the saving faith necessary to receive and continue receiving the communication of the benefits of Christ's mediation was there "from the beginning." In this light, when I asked our pastor to pray for our newborn granddaughter a few weeks ago, without hesitation he prayed that Christ would regenerate her even now at this tender age. That prayer reminded me of one more reason that I love the Reformed faith.


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## TylerRay

Quatchu said:


> I was listening to an audio sermon from a person who is Reformed this past week. He said that Baptism makes you a Christian, and that it united us to Christ. It was a passing remark. Does anyone know what this means, is this statement within the confines of the confessions?



That's the sort of thing that you consistently hear from Federal Visionists. Who is the man?


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## Quatchu

TylerRay said:


> Quatchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was listening to an audio sermon from a person who is Reformed this past week. He said that Baptism makes you a Christian, and that it united us to Christ. It was a passing remark. Does anyone know what this means, is this statement within the confines of the confessions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the sort of thing that you consistently hear from Federal Visionists. Who is the man?
Click to expand...


I would rather not say until i have investigated more.


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## Edward

The issue's being a bit overworked. WCF 28:5 answers the original question:

V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

You can be a Christian without being baptized, and you can be baptized without being a Christian. It's pretty clear that the answer in "No".


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## MW

The responses in this thread are making too much of the word "Christian." The word, in holy Scripture, is basically used in the context of outward profession. In Christian theology through the centuries it is mostly used in this way also. It is certainly used in this way by the Westminster Directory for Public Worship, when it says of infants to be baptised, "That they are Christians, and federally holy before baptism, and therefore are they baptized." As baptism is necessary to an outward profession, there is nothing incorrect in identifying a "Christian" by baptism. More must be said in relation to a saving interest in Christ, but that speaks to the issue of inward and outward, true and false Christians, not to the term "Christian" itself.


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## Tim

armourbearer said:


> The responses in this thread are making too much of the word "Christian." The word, in holy Scripture, is basically used in the context of outward profession. In Christian theology through the centuries it is mostly used in this way also. It is certainly used in this way by the Westminster Directory for Public Worship, when it says of infants to be baptised, "That they are Christians, and federally holy before baptism, and therefore are they baptized." As baptism is necessary to an outward profession, there is nothing incorrect in identifying a "Christian" by baptism. More must be said in relation to a saving interest in Christ, but that speaks to the issue of inward and outward, true and false Christians, not to the term "Christian" itself.



Thanks. I was waiting for someone to make this point.


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## Herald

Peairtach said:


> Baptism makes you a Christian in the sense that you are solemnly and visibly admitted to the Covenant of Grace and the Christian Church.



I have a problem with this. Water baptism is a sign. It does not have a "sense" to it. I am fearful of attaching anything to saving faith. Perhaps I have a problem with your use of the word "sense."


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## thbslawson

TylerRay said:


> Quatchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was listening to an audio sermon from a person who is Reformed this past week. He said that Baptism makes you a Christian, and that it united us to Christ. It was a passing remark. Does anyone know what this means, is this statement within the confines of the confessions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the sort of thing that you consistently hear from Federal Visionists. Who is the man?
Click to expand...


Yes, that's straight up Federal Vision talk. In the best case scenario terms have been redefined and are being misused. In a worst case scenario, it is a genuine belief in baptismal regeneration.

Thomas


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## KaphLamedh

If you ask the question from a Lutheran, he would answer that yes. Jesus Christ makes you a Christian. Faith in Christ.


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## chuckd

armourbearer said:


> The responses in this thread are making too much of the word "Christian." The word, in holy Scripture, is basically used in the context of outward profession. In Christian theology through the centuries it is mostly used in this way also. It is certainly used in this way by the Westminster Directory for Public Worship, when it says of infants to be baptised, "That they are Christians, and federally holy before baptism, and therefore are they baptized." As baptism is necessary to an outward profession, there is nothing incorrect in identifying a "Christian" by baptism. More must be said in relation to a saving interest in Christ, but that speaks to the issue of inward and outward, true and false Christians, not to the term "Christian" itself.



I recently read one of Thomas Manton's sermons on Rom. 6:2 - 


> Observe the argument lieth here, "We that are dead", etc. All that have given their names to Christ are, or should be, dead to sin. Now, to be dead to sin and live in sin are [incompatible]; the dead are no longer alive.
> 
> Because this is the strength of his argument, it will be good to inquire what it is to be dead in sin. In the strict and rigorous notion, he is said to be dead who is utterly deprived of all sense and motion, that they are altogether without all feeling and motion of sin; but this strict sense will not stand here; therefore I must tell you the word relateth to the baptismal engagement, as the following verses abundantly do declare: -ver. 3, "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death?" Baptism referreth to Christ's death, and we are baptized into the likeness and power of his death; the meaning of that ordinance is to signify our dying to sin and rising to newness of life; this is that which every christian knoweth, if he be but a little instructed in the principles of his religion. Well, then, every good christian is dead to sin by vow and obligation, therefore cannot, should not, live any longer therein. There is a double undertaking in baptism-one on God's part, the other on ours; the undertaking on God's part is to give us the sanctifying Spirit of grace, to quell the reign of sin; the undertaking on our part is by the Spirit to mortify the deeds of the body. Now some make conscience of this solemn vow and promise, others do not; the apostle considereth not what is done, but what ought to be done; he speaketh de jure, of the vow and obligation-we are all bound; not de facto, of the event, not what always cometh to pass. All christians are bound to be dead to sin, and every good christian is actually dead to sin, which, though it hath some life and being left, yet it retaineth not its sovereignty and dominion over him. Some conceive this latter sort intended; 'as many of us as have died to sin': but rather he considereth the right than the fact. Christianity doth oblige all at their first entrance into the profession of it to renounce the reign and dominion of sin, and break the power of it yet more and more, so that it dieth, though a lingering death, as Christ did upon the cross.
> 
> Doctrine: That to take occasion to live in sin from free grace, or God's mercy to sinners in Christ, is an inference most unjust, absurd, and blasphemous, and that which all christians' hearts should abominate.



Am I reading him (and you) correctly in that water baptism is a vow to identify with Christ and that any talk of "death" and "new life" is identification with Christ and not a "strict and rigorous notion"? So water baptism does in fact "baptize [the professor] into his death", etc. in as much as he vows to mortify sin, etc.? And water baptism is a mark of a Christian only so far as a profession of faith?


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## Semper Fidelis

Quatchu said:


> He said that Baptism makes you a Christian, and that it united us to Christ.


It depends on how he qualified the statement. Baptism does make you a Christian in a public sense such that you are marked out from the world but it doesn't unite you to Christ simply by its administration. That said, for the elect, the Spirit sovereignly applies the graces signified to the believer.


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## MW

chuckd said:


> Am I reading him (and you) correctly in that water baptism is a vow to identify with Christ and that any talk of "death" and "new life" is identification with Christ and not a "strict and rigorous notion"? So water baptism does in fact "baptize [the professor] into his death", etc. in as much as he vows to mortify sin, etc.? And water baptism is a mark of a Christian only so far as a profession of faith?



Some qualifications need to be made, but basically, yes, baptism functions as a mark of profession before the church. Reformed theology considers that there is an outward sign and an inward grace. Ideally the outward and inward should never be divorced. They only come to be separated because of the sad reality of false profession. This reality practically forces us to separate the two and to speak of baptism as only marking the external profession before the church. Where there is no reason for supposing there is a false profession there is no basis for separating the external and internal, and so the outward sign of baptism may be spoken of as if it marked the internal possession of the grace signified. There is no doubt that the New Testament regularly speaks in this way through the "judgment of charity." At the same time it issues warnings to impress on individuals that they must come to a "judgment of certainty" in relation to their own personal possession of grace in Christ, and directs the believer to trust in Christ rather than their outward privileges. It also uses the outward privilege as a basis to exhort "believers" to walk worthy of their calling.


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## Peairtach

Herald said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baptism makes you a Christian in the sense that you are solemnly and visibly admitted to the Covenant of Grace and the Christian Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with this. Water baptism is a sign. It does not have a "sense" to it. I am fearful of attaching anything to saving faith. Perhaps I have a problem with your use of the word "sense."
Click to expand...


Remember the - imperfect - analogy with the covenant of marriage, Bill.

When you get married your status before God and man changes, regardless of whether or not you truly love your spouse. But how many get married and yet are not truly married because they do not truly love each other.

Others are married in heart long before they have the sign and seal of marriage, while some grow to love their spouse after the ceremony.

Of course the Holy Spirit is involved in the sacraments, in a way in which He is not with human marriage.



> Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matt 18:18)



Christ promises to be behind the correct administration of the word and sacraments and church disipline by His Spirit.


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## chuckd

armourbearer said:


> chuckd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Am I reading him (and you) correctly in that water baptism is a vow to identify with Christ and that any talk of "death" and "new life" is identification with Christ and not a "strict and rigorous notion"? So water baptism does in fact "baptize [the professor] into his death", etc. in as much as he vows to mortify sin, etc.? And water baptism is a mark of a Christian only so far as a profession of faith?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some qualifications need to be made, but basically, yes, baptism functions as a mark of profession before the church. Reformed theology considers that there is an outward sign and an inward grace. Ideally the outward and inward should never be divorced. They only come to be separated because of the sad reality of false profession. This reality practically forces us to separate the two and to speak of baptism as only marking the external profession before the church. Where there is no reason for supposing there is a false profession there is no basis for separating the external and internal, and so the outward sign of baptism may be spoken of as if it marked the internal possession of the grace signified. There is no doubt that the New Testament regularly speaks in this way through the "judgment of charity." At the same time it issues warnings to impress on individuals that they must come to a "judgment of certainty" in relation to their own personal possession of grace in Christ, and directs the believer to trust in Christ rather than their outward privileges. It also uses the outward privilege as a basis to exhort "believers" to walk worthy of their calling.
Click to expand...


 Thanks so much!


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