# Things that presuppose God's existence



## cih1355 (Jul 1, 2010)

I know that moral values, the uniformity principle, and the laws of logic presuppose God's existence. Would other things such as the laws of mathematics or the idea that beauty is objective and universal presuppose God's existence?


----------



## MarieP (Jul 1, 2010)

cih1355 said:


> I know that moral values, the uniformity principle, and the laws of logic presuppose God's existence. Would other things such as the laws of mathematics or the idea that beauty is objective and universal presuppose God's existence?


 
Everything presupposes God's existence.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and *apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being*.


----------



## Peairtach (Jul 2, 2010)

Everything presupposes God's existence, but it may be easier to bring that to people's attention with some things than others. Certainly maths and beauty point to God in a particular way.

God is One yet Three at the same time. God is beautiful, the Bible repeatedly states.

God is the All-Conditioner, that is the ultimate standard for all things. After God there is no standard and without God there would be no standards at all.

Vern Poythress is a mathematician and presuppositionalist. He may have stuff about maths and God at his website which he shares with John Frame.


----------



## jwright82 (Jul 3, 2010)

> as the laws of mathematics or the idea that beauty is objective and universal presuppose God's existence?



If you study the history of math you will come across the name of a guy who called for math, among other things, to find a solid basis indepenent of any other source or authority, his name was Hilbert. He called for philosophers and mathmaticians to find a solid logical basis or foundation for mathmatics. Godel and Turing proved two very vital pieces of that foundation were impossible. Without getting in to detail they destroyed the very so called authority and autonomy of mathmatics that left mathmaticians wondering whether or not 2+2=4 was realy true. One way to look at the problem is to say well if math cannot explain or support itself some external reason must support it in order for it to have authority. We as christians have that in the very idea of God. Math reflects His very nature and since He is Creator it permeates all creation. He is selfexistant and it relies on Him for its existance therefore it has authority derived from Him.

Beauty is a slightly different matter. If everyone has their own opinion of what beauty is than the concept has little to no value or authority at all. But if God exists than there is a normative value for beauty in and through creation. We cannot use natural law as an autonomous force and base a whole argument off of it alone but we can and do use natural law to make value judgements about the beauty of things based off of His authority. He defines what beauty is and we use that standered to judge things. Notice again that the authority of beauty does not rest in and by itself but solely in the authority of God the Creator. 

So the choices in this situation are threefold:
1. Except that without God there is no ultimate standered for math or beauty and logically you have a problem with why they are authoritative at all. But you deny that God exists and simply say that there is no standered or authority for math or beauty.
2. You except the existance of God as a presupossition for math or beauty to have any value and authority at all. 
3. You find a different ultimate source for math and beauty that can acomplish, logically that is, the same job that God does, which I don't think is possible.


----------



## teddyrux (Jul 7, 2010)

Me


----------

