# Corrupt/Apostate mainline denominations and pulpit-sharing



## Berean (Oct 3, 2010)

I admit to being ignorant that they were 'brothers in arms' so to speak as far as pulpit-sharing agreements. I guess there is more common ground than I realized according to articles in a local Sunday paper. And the general public reads this and thinks all Presbyterians are in "the same boat". That's both sad (for them) and embarrassing (for true churches).



> The arrangement is possible because of a full communion agreement reached in 1997 between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). *The ELCA maintains agreements with five other denominations: the United Church of Christ, the Reformed Church in America, the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church and the Moravian Church in America.*



I'm surprised that the Unitarians aren't included in this "diversity".

Double duty: Oelwein churches sharing preacher, sharing ministries

Denominational differences exist, but not as pronounced



> Clergy are watching carefully to see what full communion agreements mean for church and outreach in an increasingly diverse and changing world.
> 
> "It begins with this conversation, but *it grows into so much more*," Meunier said.


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## Marrow Man (Oct 3, 2010)

Norm, believe it or not, back a couple of decades ago when the ARP and PC(USA) were on better terms, we were asked to be a part of this arrangement. We said "no thanks," and after that we feel off the PC(USA)'s radar. So much so that when the chairman of Synod's committee on church relations tried calling the PC(USA) headquarters here in Louisville, they had no idea what he was talking about. As in they didn't know anything about the ARP Church. A blessing in disguise, perhaps.


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## Philip (Oct 3, 2010)

Call me crazy, but couldn't the ARP, PCA, and OPC reach an agreement like this?


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## DMcFadden (Oct 3, 2010)

Garrison Keillor's program this weekend included a bit where he recounted hearing from a person in Santa Rosa (CA) that Keillor "romanticizes" the mainline experience in small towns rather than portraying it accurately. His response? He composed and sang (after a fashion), the "Methodist Blues." Indeed, in many of the mainline churches "the preacher's too left," the organist is almost "deaf," and there isn't any "youth director because there aren't any youth here anymore." Still, as Keillor opines, these churches are just like any other retail concern where "business picks up at Christmas." Sad.


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## Marrow Man (Oct 3, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Call me crazy, but couldn't the ARP, PCA, and OPC reach an agreement like this?



You're crazy.

Seriously, this is probably the unofficial practice in many of these churches. For example, I would not have a problem with a PCA or OPC pastor preaching for me when out-of-town, etc. (as long as he were not FV, of course).


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## Berean (Oct 3, 2010)

For what it's worth, buried at the bottom of the article is the ELCA "Characteristics of Full Communion" in pdf. Here's the link and what it states.



> Characteristics of Full Communion
> 
> For the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the characteristics of full communion are theological and missiological implications of the Gospel that allow variety and flexibility.
> These characteristics stress that the church act ecumenically for the sake of the world, not
> ...



http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/wcfcourier.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/5/5b/925/55b92562-cdbf-11df-bd0f-001cc4c002e0-revisions/4ca6824fa23c4.pdf.pdf


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## jwithnell (Oct 3, 2010)

I think there may be some kind of communion between the Roman Catholics and ELCA.

ARP, PCA, and OPC? I know of some wonderful pastors and congregations in all three denominations, but there are too many outliers in each to make a reasonable fellowship.


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## Staphlobob (Oct 3, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> I think there may be some kind of communion between the Roman Catholics and ELCA.



Though the elca would love to be in communion with anyone and everyone - atheists, unitarians, buddhists, mohammedans, etc,. - I know the RCC doesn't have communion with anyone but themselves, and those who completely buy into Roman theology. 

I do know that since 1986 the "Lutherans" (mostly the elca, which is why I'm loathe to call it Lutheran) have come into full agreement concerning justification by grace. But I can promise you ... there is no communion between the two bodies.


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## Philip (Oct 3, 2010)

> I know the RCC doesn't have communion with anyone but themselves, and those who completely buy into Roman theology.



As I understand it, they do have some sort of understanding with the EO communion where Catholics can partake of mass in an EO church and priests can preside over each others masses, etc and vice versa (and verce visa).


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 3, 2010)

DMcFadden said:


> Garrison Keillor's program this weekend included a bit where he recounted hearing from a person in Santa Rosa (CA) that Keillor "romanticizes" the mainline experience in small towns rather than portraying it accurately. His response? He composed and sang (after a fashion), the "Methodist Blues." Indeed, in many of the mainline churches "the preacher's too left," the organist is almost "deaf," and there isn't any "youth director because there aren't any youth here anymore." Still, as Keillor opines, these churches are just like any other retail concern where "business picks up at Christmas." Sad.



DMF, Samuel Rutherford and I listened to this on the way to church this morning. It was as much heartening as much as disheartening. But the Bible believers still ended up the cooks of course. I think GK is a troubled soul or one who knows how to play both sides. Probably the latter like Benjamin Franklin.

You and I must be alike besides age. I love PHC.


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## DMcFadden (Oct 3, 2010)

Indeed. Our commonalities are pretty great.

BTW, I was reading Piper's old _Counted Righteous in Christ_, this afternoon and came across the following astute (albeit often made) observation:




> Everybody knows that with the right personality, the right music, the right location, and the right schedule you can grow a church without anybody really knowing what doctrinal commitments sustain it, if any. Church-planting specialists generally downplay biblical doctrine in the core values of what makes a church "successful." The long-term effect of this ethos is a weakening of the church that is concealed as long as the crowds are large, the band is loud, the tragedies are few, and persecution is still at the level of preferences.


John Piper, Counted Righteous in Christ: Should We Abandon the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness?, (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2002), 22.


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## jwithnell (Oct 3, 2010)

> Church-planting specialists generally downplay biblical doctrine in the core values of what makes a church "successful."


So sad but true. I was incredibly blessed to be involved in a church plant where the core group and the initial (and 30 years later the "always") pastor were determined that the truth would be preached even if it meant we'd stay tiny. Since I was a baby in the faith at the time, it meant that I learned right away that God blesses what is true and not to be fooled by what brings the flattery of men.


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## ericfromcowtown (Oct 3, 2010)

I know that our PCA congregation has a, probably unofficial, pulpit sharing agreement with the local URC congregation. It doesn't happen often, but probably once or twice a year the two pastors help each other out with unforeseen pulpit support. It helps that the two churches have different Sunday morning worship times, so that in a pinch either pastor could preach at both churches on a given Sunday.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 3, 2010)

Eric, we have the same with the OPC down the street.


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## Staphlobob (Oct 4, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> As I understand it, they do have some sort of understanding with the EO communion where Catholics can partake of mass in an EO church and priests can preside over each others masses, etc and vice versa (and verce visa).


 
Byzantine Catholics (Eastern Rite churches that look like EOs, except that they are Roman) are in full communion with Rome. In fact, one of my wife's best friends is a member of a Byzantine convent in Philly.

However, I do know that Rome and the EOs have lifted their mutual excommunications based on the filioque issue. And I do know that, barring the presence of an RCC priest, a Romanist can receive communion from an EO, however I do remain unaware of any further development. But perhaps they do have something going. After all, I haven't been Roman since 1986 and something may have happened during the intervening time.

BUT .. I do know that the elca is in full communion with Schuller's own denomination!


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