# Should I help clean a Public School?



## smhbbag (Jun 21, 2009)

I am heavily involved in our church's Urban Ministry, usually in the form of Jobs For Life (teaching the gospel and job skills, in that order, to folks who need both), as well as various community health fairs, free dental clinics, etc.

In a few weeks, we are participating with other local churches in something called "Hope for Durham," and our church will be cleaning and painting a local public school in a very poor area. I am very conflicted about this. Actually, I'm not at all and I don't want to have anything to do with it. Am I wrong?

I find it terribly ironic that the Church in this area, including mine, is working on a project called "Hope for Durham" by aiding an institution purposefully set out to deny the gospel, and undo what a good Christian home would instill. This particular school has posters and other "inspirational" material lining the hallways that indoctrinates its impoverished subjects (not students) with everything from postmodern all-consuming tolerance, to blaming "The Man," to global warming.

I do not want to go and help them in any way. Not even to clean their sidewalks or paint their walls. I want that school to fall to the ground in ruins, and not get a makeover courtesy of the people it's working against.

It _will_ be noticed if I do not participate or sign up, and I will be asked why. I do not want to lie, and telling the truth will be highly insulting to my church leadership (as I'm suggesting they are in the wrong for participating in this).

How can I humbly, truthfully, and peacefully get through this and ensure that my elders in this ministry understand how much I still love and respect them? This will be an issue where division and disagreement will likely be seen as hostile, and will be very hard for them to take well. What can I do?


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## calgal (Jun 21, 2009)

What option would you offer the Public School parents to their only academic option in this very poor area? Will you work to give their kids scholarships at Christian schools? Will you bring in educators to give them a God centered education?


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## smhbbag (Jun 21, 2009)

> What option would you offer the Public School parents to their only academic option in this very poor area? Will you work to give their kids scholarships at Christian schools? Will you bring in educators to give them a God centered education?



This seems like a separate issue. I would love to do that. I have discussed it with the elders, and we have not moved forward in any way on it. But I would think that just because there are few other options is not a reason to support this institution. There are a few 'black' churches in the area that do have schools with extensive scholarship programs. There is a choice in this area, but we have not done anything to expand that choice.

The first step to doing good in an area is to stop supporting evil in it.


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## TimV (Jun 21, 2009)

I wouldn't go. No way.


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## smhbbag (Jun 21, 2009)

> I wouldn't go. No way.



Given my position as a young guy in this ministry, and the sensitivity of the issue, would you explain your reasons when asked why you're not participating? Would you believe it to be worth causing the stir?

Or should I find some way to be honest, and yet let the whole thing pass peacefully?

It would be no small thing to explain my reasoning, which would involve a conviction that doing this is sin.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

Hmmmm....seems like an opportunity missed. You miss this one then you have to miss any opportunity to help the heathen anywhere else. Would you not help your atheist neighbor? Maybe take some literature to hand out (slip into lockers etc)...get inventive. They've got the children....let's get them back.


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## smhbbag (Jun 21, 2009)

> Hmmmm....seems like an opportunity missed. You miss this one then you have to miss any opportunity to help the heathen anywhere else. Would you not help your atheist neighbor?



I would gladly help my atheist neighbor mow his lawn, clean his garage, or find him a doctor when he needs one. But I would not help him repaint the walls to host his "Why God Stinks" convention. Cleaning this public school is analogous to the latter, in my mind. This building has a purpose, and so do the people who run it. By helping this school look better, in some small way I would be strengthening its hold on the community, and the esteem given to it by them. And I just can't do that.

The outside of the building needs to match the inside: bankrupt.


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## Mushroom (Jun 21, 2009)

Jeremy, can you point these things out to your leadership in a loving fashion? Sometimes that's hard, I know, and sometimes no matter how loving you try to present it, it will be taken as insult. But if you can prayerfully make your case to them in love, they will either hear and be blessed and you can all make a stand in the community, or they will reject it but you can excuse yourself on the basis of conscience and you will have made a stand without engendering strife. Its a narrow channel to navigate, but it can be done.

Humility without anger or indignation would be the best route.


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## Scott1 (Jun 21, 2009)

> Matthew 5:44
> 
> 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;



One way is to do this thing you do not want to do. Ask God for grace to do it and specifically to use it for a real, tangible witness there and that He will give you the pleasure to see that happen.

There are likely some Christian children and parents connected with that school but one aspect of our calling is to help the poor without regard, doing it only as unto the Lord, and for His sake.

(And it wouldn't hurt also to pray for godly people on your school board- that they might influence the kind of materials used there)


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> > Hmmmm....seems like an opportunity missed. You miss this one then you have to miss any opportunity to help the heathen anywhere else. Would you not help your atheist neighbor?
> 
> 
> 
> I would gladly help my atheist neighbor mow his lawn, clean his garage, or find him a doctor when he needs one. But I would not help him repaint the walls to host his "Why God Stinks" convention. Cleaning this public school is analogous to the latter, in my mind. This building has a purpose, and so do the people who run it. By helping this school look better, in some small way I would be strengthening its hold on the community, and the esteem given to it by them. And I just can't do that.



One of our persecuted brothers cleans his guards' toilets with a cheerful heart even though the prison is used to torture and kill God's servants and tell them that "God is dead". He says his spiritual reward is showing God's love and Glorying God and his earthly reward is getting the bible pages out of the trash that the guards use to wipe with. He is able to read them after washing them. Just giving a different perspective than that of Americans.


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## Pergamum (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't see this as a wise use of time. If you are going to be engaged in something for your community, 1001 things are more strategic and a better stewardship.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> I don't see this as a wise use of time. If you are going to be engaged in something for your community, 1001 things are more strategic and a better stewardship.



But this is an opportunity to influence *children* and it's standing right there before him...he doesn't have to go looking for another when one is being presented. 

Set your agenda....to spread the Gospel as effectively as possible while you're there. If they catch you doing it and throw you out....well, you've done exactly what others are doing right now in *every single place* they can get a foot hold in. No place should be off limits to the Gospel.


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## smhbbag (Jun 21, 2009)

> One of our persecuted brothers cleans his guards' toilets with a cheerful heart even though the prison is used to torture and kill God's servants and tell them that "God is dead". He says his spiritual reward is showing God's love and Glorying God and his earthly reward is getting the bible pages out of the trash that the guards use to wipe with. He is able to read them after washing them. Just giving a different perspective than that of Americans.



This is an incredible act. But I do not think a comparison works with this. By cleaning the toilet, he is not furthering the mission of the evil prison. People are not enticed by it, think it's ok, and go there by choice. But that is the case with this public school.

Cleaning the prison does not help it commit more evil. Cleaning the school does.



> One way is to do this thing you do not want to do. Ask God for grace to do it and specifically to use it for a real, tangible witness there and that He will give you the pleasure to see that happen.
> 
> There are likely some Christian children and parents connected with that school but one aspect of our calling is to help the poor without regard, doing it only as unto the Lord, and for His sake.
> 
> (And it wouldn't help also to pray for godly people on your school board- that they might influence the kind of materials used there)



Scott, in order to ask God for grace to go through with this even if I don't want to would require me to believe it's not sin. As long as I believe it's sin, I can't really ask God for grace to help me get out there and do it anyway.

I have an objection to a premise of yours - that this helps poor people. This whole ministry I am a part of exists to help poor people indiscriminately with health issues, job issues, etc. while teaching the gospel.

I love to do those things "without regard," and for His sake, as you say. But I think helping this school is a bad thing that hurts the poor, and to help the school is to perpetuate a system that rejects the gospel and hurts the subjects who enter its doors.

There are Christians from my church who teach there. And they do their best to counteract what influence the rest of the teachers give. But the school is rotten, root and branch, and any child who escapes it with a sound mind intact is the recipient of a miracle from God.



> But this is an opportunity to influence children and it's standing right there before him...he doesn't have to go looking for another when one is being presented.



As it's summer, there will be no children present, and there will only be a few representatives from the school supervising the work of my fellow members. Even if they were there, we have knocked on every door in this zip code multiple times offering the gospel and physical aid, so it is not as though going through this public school gains us access to anyone new.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> > One of our persecuted brothers cleans his guards' toilets with a cheerful heart even though the prison is used to torture and kill God's servants and tell them that "God is dead". He says his spiritual reward is showing God's love and Glorying God and his earthly reward is getting the bible pages out of the trash that the guards use to wipe with. He is able to read them after washing them. Just giving a different perspective than that of Americans.
> >
> > This is an incredible act. But I do not think a comparison works with this. By cleaning the toilet, he is not furthering the mission of the evil prison. People are not enticed by it, think it's ok, and go there by choice. But that is the case with this public school.
> >
> ...


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## ww (Jun 21, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> I am heavily involved in our church's Urban Ministry, usually in the form of Jobs For Life (teaching the gospel and job skills, in that order, to folks who need both), as well as various community health fairs, free dental clinics, etc.
> 
> In a few weeks, we are participating with other local churches in something called "Hope for Durham," and our church will be cleaning and painting a local public school in a very poor area. I am very conflicted about this. Actually, I'm not at all and I don't want to have anything to do with it. Am I wrong?
> 
> ...



Are you are not overstating their reaction Jeremy? I think if you are asked and you state it violates your conscience to do so then by all means they should respect that especially as there is so much diversity of opinion these days on homeschooling vs public schools. If they don't respect your desire to uphold your convictions and not violate your conscience than there is an issue with their Leadership. I wouldn't hold the same conviction on this as you however I respect your position and encourage you to do that which you feel is honorable.


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## historyb (Jun 21, 2009)

Wwjd?


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## Mushroom (Jun 21, 2009)

Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?

Not much difference between them all and a public school. They are all places where the Lord is despised and the devil is hard at work trying to keep children from the truth and lead them down the path to destruction.

Public schools just do it in a more subtle fashion, so they are a little easier to swallow. Which makes them even more devious.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:42:26 EST-----



historyb said:


> Wwjd?


I seriously doubt that Jesus would have encouraged the disciples to go help the Romans maintain a facility wherein they forcefully took Jewish children to convince them that the faith of their fathers was false and to hold to pagan beliefs and practices.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

Brad said:


> Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?
> 
> Not much difference between them all and a public school. They are all places where the Lord is despised and the devil is hard at work trying to keep children from the truth and lead them down the path to destruction.
> 
> Public schools just do it in a more subtle fashion, so they are a little easier to swallow. Which makes them even more devious.



Yes I would if he could spread the Gospel while doing it. Why do we think that painting the walls of the heathens' buildings is going to help them further their cause? God allows them to further their cause if He wants it furthered. He hasn't called us to destroy their cause by staying away from them but by spreading the Gospel to change their hearts and thus change their cause.


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## historyb (Jun 21, 2009)

Brad said:


> I seriously doubt that Jesus would have encouraged the disciples to go help the Romans maintain a facility wherein they forcefully took Jewish children to convince them that the faith of their fathers was false and to hold to pagan beliefs and practices.



Hmm, someone says carry a mile, carry two. Someone says give your cloak give him your coat, something to that effect


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## Pergamum (Jun 21, 2009)

In our limited time and energy in life we must not let "the good" by the enemy of "the best" and we must strive to be the best stewards that we can be of our time. Painting a public school when the kids will not even be there might not be the best use of time, unless time is a commodity that you have a lot of.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:48:34 EST-----

If you DO have a whole lot of time to spend, I can email a list of many things for you to do for the kingdom that would take higher prioritization and would involve direct evangelism.


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## Mushroom (Jun 21, 2009)

> If you DO have a whole lot of time to spend, I can email a list of many things for you to do for the kingdom that would take higher prioritization and would involve direct evangelism.


I think I would love to see that list, Pergs.

-----Added 6/21/2009 at 10:52:46 EST-----



TranZ4MR said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> > Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?
> ...


He didn't seem to look very approvingly on Solomon allowing his pagan wife to build a temple to her god in Jerusalem. Or the 'help' the Israelites gave in building ashteroths.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

Brad said:


> > If you DO have a whole lot of time to spend, I can email a list of many things for you to do for the kingdom that would take higher prioritization and would involve direct evangelism.
> 
> 
> I think I would love to see that list, Pergs.
> ...



Was he spreading the Gospel and controlling the situation to further God's agenda or was he letting his wives control things there? If smhbbag were going to just paint the school and do no Gospel spreading, then I would tell him to stay away. Why do we get to pick the places where we want to spread the Gospel? If you can find a Bible verse which tells us not to spread the Gospel in all places and only in certain places, then I will admit my wrongness. 

Perg, I really do appreciate what you do for Christ and how you lay down your life for those in the country in which you live. You, brother, do more than I do!!! But we do have to have some people here in America spreading the Gospel too. We all can't leave this land to go else where. We can't pick our place where we want to spread the Gospel we have to take advantage of every opportunities God gives to us.


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Jun 21, 2009)




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## Mushroom (Jun 21, 2009)

With no kids there, and probably only some poor facilities guy present, I doubt this is a grand opportunity for gospel presentation. Instead it is just helping 'pretty up' the local temple to Molech. And if the aim is to paint, then painting is what ought to be done, not gab. That would produce a very unglorifying witness - lazy Christians wanting to chit-chat rather than perform the work they came to do, and doing so until the point of being thrown out as you suggest.

I think the idea is that the painting itself will be a witness to the school. But none of the students will ever know that, and very few of the staff,so what's the point?

I'm sure Solomon thought he was being kind in allowing the false god's temple to be built. Motives must be checked against the word of God before being categorized as good.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 21, 2009)

This may be a reason for discretion rather than answers. If your leadership asks why you choose not to participate, you could respond "I'd rather not say" and leave it at that.

If they press the issue, then you are not being disrespectful or divisive if your answer is direct and truthful.

Of course if you go privately and ask respectfully why they feel it is worthwhile to support that school, they might instruct you in what might be a weakness in your understanding.

So from my understanding, the options are essentially two: either humbly ask how they will deal with the support of what you see as teaching against the Church, or decline to answer.

I personally would think that if you really respect the leadership in your church, you would choose to give them voice to their understanding of the issues and why they would support the school.



smhbbag said:


> I am heavily involved in our church's Urban Ministry, usually in the form of Jobs For Life (teaching the gospel and job skills, in that order, to folks who need both), as well as various community health fairs, free dental clinics, etc.
> 
> In a few weeks, we are participating with other local churches in something called "Hope for Durham," and our church will be cleaning and painting a local public school in a very poor area. I am very conflicted about this. Actually, I'm not at all and I don't want to have anything to do with it. Am I wrong?
> 
> ...


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Jun 21, 2009)

Sarah, exactly what are the witnessing opportunities there? Leaving tracts behind? It sounds like no one will be there.


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

Brad said:


> With no kids there, and probably only some poor facilities guy present, I doubt this is a grand opportunity for gospel presentation. Instead it is just helping 'pretty up' the local temple to Molech. And if the aim is to paint, then painting is what ought to be done, not gab. That would produce a very unglorifying witness - lazy Christians wanting to chit-chat rather than perform the work they came to do, and doing so until the point of being thrown out as you suggest.
> 
> I think the idea is that the painting itself will be a witness to the school. But none of the students will ever know that, and very few of the staff,so what's the point?
> 
> I'm sure Solomon thought he was being kind in allowing the false god's temple to be built. Motives must be checked against the word of God before being categorized as good.



That's why I told him to be creative. I've slipped pieces of paper into lockers before it can be done. (We shouldn't assume they won't have kids there to help though. Many times they do just to get them involved) Something with the clear message of the law and grace on it would be spreading the Gospel. He could give them a place they could go for more answers on that piece of paper...like his church's phone number/address etc. Instead of going to paint that school and have that opportunity, is he going to go somewhere else and spread the Gospel? Not saying that he has to, *but* I'm saying the *opportunity* is standing before him in this situation. It's important that we spread the Gospel to children especially. They try to get our kids when they are young...so do the communists. They know how important it is and we should too. Anyway, he was asking so I said my piece.


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## Mushroom (Jun 21, 2009)

And if frogs had wings...


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## OPC'n (Jun 21, 2009)

I give up too, Brad. I'm probably the last person who should be giving advise right now. Peace.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 21, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> This building has a purpose, and so do the people who run it. By helping this school look better, in some small way I would be strengthening its hold on the community, and the esteem given to it by them. And I just can't do that.



That is quite a statement. I work in a public school, and while all of what you say is also there, there are also things that are supporting the cause of Christ. There is a chapter of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, there is a Christian group that meets for prayer every week (there is also a Muslim student group, but it is not any more supported than the Christian group), there are teachers that are a light in a dark place that will talk with students when they ask questions. The purpose of most public schools is not as dark as what you might think. In a sense, it is dark, as it purposely does separate teaching of all subjects from "taking every thought captive to Christ" (which is why I home school my own children). Yet I fully recognize that is not an option for all parents.

I have been blessed in many ways, and I have always been able to provide a Christian education for my children, yet I know with a slight turn of events, I might not have had that ability. When my first wife died, I had a large income (I was working in software engineering) and I was able to have the children go to a private Christian school. If I had not been so well off financially, I would have had to send the children to public school. So while I want a Christian education for my children, I can see that some might not be able to accomplish that. A widow(er) might not have that choice. So if there are Christians going to that school, are you ministering to them by helping the school?

I only say this to raise a possibility that perhaps the school which you are so against might not be so single minded. I know if I were teaching there, it certainly would not be single minded.


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## Gloria (Jun 22, 2009)

[email protected] OP...


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## Montanablue (Jun 22, 2009)

> I have been blessed in many ways, and I have always been able to provide a Christian education for my children, yet I know with a slight turn of events, I might not have had that ability. When my first wife died, I had a large income (I was working in software engineering) and I was able to have the children go to a private Christian school. If I had not been so well off financially, I would have had to send the children to public school. So while I want a Christian education for my children, I can see that some might not be able to accomplish that. A widow(er) might not have that choice. So if there are Christians going to that school, are you ministering to them by helping the school?
> 
> I only say this to raise a possibility that perhaps the school which you are so against might not be so single minded. I know if I were teaching there, it certainly would not be single minded.





Depending on the size of the school (you say its in an urban area so I'm assuming that its larger), its statistically probable that Christian children attend it. Even if there are not Christians there, are we not supposed to minister to the heathen? I think that providing a cleaner and freshly painted school counts as ministering. Just my


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> That is quite a statement. I work in a public school, and while all of what you say is also there, there are also things that are supporting the cause of Christ. There is a chapter of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, there is a Christian group that meets for prayer every week (there is also a Muslim student group, but it is not any more supported than the Christian group), there are teachers that are a light in a dark place that will talk with students when they ask questions. The purpose of most public schools is not as dark as what you might think. In a sense, it is dark, as it purposely does separate teaching of all subjects from "taking every thought captive to Christ" (which is why I home school my own children). Yet I fully recognize that is not an option for all parents.



I do not believe the last sentence is true. There is _always_ a way. I do not believe it is within Christian liberty to have a child's mind formed by an unbelieving system 8-10 hours per day, regardless of the possibility that there might be a few genuinely Christian teachers and activities trying (unsuccessfully) to stem the tide.

If my premise is correct, that it is a Christian's obligation not to put children under the instruction of ungodly systems, then by definition there are options. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, and He will _always_ provide means for the believer to obey Him. It might be desperate and hard, but it is there.

If there were no options for my children where I am - say if I were a widower with a church who won't help, and no churches or schools in the area would help regardless of my desperation (this is unlikely), then there is still a means. Pick up a phone and dial every acceptable church, school, or homeschool group in the city, county, state, country or world until someone says "Yes, I will help you." And then beg, borrow, plead, and work like the dickens to get there and receive that help. 

There is always a way.



> I have been blessed in many ways, and I have always been able to provide a Christian education for my children, yet I know with a slight turn of events, I might not have had that ability. When my first wife died, I had a large income (I was working in software engineering) and I was able to have the children go to a private Christian school. If I had not been so well off financially, I would have had to send the children to public school. So while I want a Christian education for my children, I can see that some might not be able to accomplish that. A widow(er) might not have that choice. So if there are Christians going to that school, are you ministering to them by helping the school?



I would not be ministering to the Christian students by helping the school. I would be helping the system that wishes to distort their minds in the name of pluralism, tolerance, self-esteem, etc. By making their education at the feet of unbelievers more comfortable and more attractive, I only serve to mask its moral bankruptcy behind a better-kept building.

The danger of the public school system comes in its subtlety. It is not possible to sit in that environment for 12 years and not have little devilish worms burrow their way into the mind unnoticed. True, many of the symptoms and problems they would cause might be "minor," and not shipwreck a faith. But they are evil nonetheless. I am not advocating withdrawal from the world or any form of extreme separatism. I really only have a very simple principle that Christian children ought to be taught by Christian adults, according to a believing worldview. I fail to see how this is radical.



> I only say this to raise a possibility that perhaps the school which you are so against might not be so single minded. I know if I were teaching there, it certainly would not be single minded.



I agree that the vast, vast majority of teachers and administrators have no intentional plan to rip our children from the teachings of Scripture. Their influence does not have to be intentional to be real.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 22, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> There is _always_ a way. I do not believe it is within Christian liberty to have a child's mind formed by an unbelieving system 8-10 hours per day, regardless of the possibility that there might be a few genuinely Christian teachers and activities trying (unsuccessfully) to stem the tide.
> 
> If my premise is correct, that it is a Christian's obligation not to put children under the instruction of ungodly systems, then by definition there are options. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, and He will _always_ provide means for the believer to obey Him. It might be desperate and hard, but it is there.



I respectfully disagree with your premise. If what you are saying is true, then every parent that sends their children to public school ought to be brought up on charges within their church, even if the church cannot provide the education to the children. Your premise being wrong means all that follows is irrelevant.

To say that God in his providence does not put people into positions which are impossible to have their children given a Godly education would mean that those people that were deported to Babylon by force were there only because the parents did not find a way to comply with your principle. I don't buy it.

I can certainly see that if a person has a choice, they should exercise that choice to educate their children in Christian schools, or through home schooling. But saying that there is always a way seems presumptive.


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> I respectfully disagree with your premise. If what you are saying is true, then every parent that sends their children to public school ought to be brought up on charges within their church, even if the church cannot provide the education to the children. Your premise being wrong means all that follows is irrelevant.



It does not necessarily mean they ought to be brought up on charges. That simply does not follow. The church can declare it to be sin, and counsel its members to avoid it, and yet still be consistent in exercising wisdom, restraint, and patience with believers who do not yet agree with the church's teaching.



> To say that God in his providence does not put people into positions which are impossible to have their children given a Godly education would mean that those people that were deported to Babylon by force were there only because the parents did not find a way to comply with your principle. I don't buy it.



This also does not follow. 

Although I did not allow for it before (because it is irrelevant in America and most countries), it should be obvious that if someone is prevented, by force, from educating their children properly they are not in sin. Just as the man in solitary confinement for preaching is not in sin for being absent from church. He is also not in sin for not being there instruct his children.



> I can certainly see that if a person has a choice, they should exercise that choice to educate their children in Christian schools, or through home schooling. But saying that there is always a way seems presumptive.



The burden of proof is on your side to show that, Biblically, it is acceptable for a parent to voluntarily (as in, not by force) put their children under the instruction of unbelievers during the formative years of their lives.

My example is plain: regardless of your poverty or desperation, there most certainly is a way for a Christian in the United States to have a child taught by believers. Someone, somewhere will say yes to helping them. And there is a way to get there and take advantage of that love. And that is not presumptive.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 22, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> The burden of proof is on your side to show that, Biblically, it is acceptable for a parent to voluntarily (as in, not by force) put their children under the instruction of unbelievers during the formative years of their lives.
> 
> My example is plain: regardless of your poverty or desperation, there most certainly is a way for a Christian in the United States to have a child taught by believers. Someone, somewhere will say yes to helping them. And there is a way to get there and take advantage of that love. And that is not presumptive.





> God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship.



Sorry, no. You are the one making a positive assertion that something is a sin when there is no specific command that forbids it. You are the one saying that the Word forbids allowing people other than Christians to educate a child, and you have not demonstrated that explicitly or from necessary consequence of what is in scripture.

Before you can claim that something is sin, you have to prove the subject is prescribed in scripture. Your assertion that it is sin makes your claim to fall under "matters of faith". Therefore it is up to you to prove that your assertion is true ... it is not up to anyone to prove that what you are saying is false if you have not first proven it true. You haven't.


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## Simply_Nikki (Jun 22, 2009)

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...

But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.


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## kalawine (Jun 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?
> 
> Not much difference between them all and a public school. They are all places where the Lord is despised and the devil is hard at work trying to keep children from the truth and lead them down the path to destruction.
> 
> ...



Brad, I believe your examples are excellent and make good sense to me. Jesus didn't help the money changers set up their tables outside the temple did he?


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> Sorry, no. You are the one making a positive assertion that something is a sin when there is no specific command that forbids it. You are the one saying that the Word forbids allowing people other than Christians to educate a child, and you have not demonstrated that explicitly or from necessary consequence of what is in scripture.
> 
> Before you can claim that something is sin, you have to prove the subject is prescribed in scripture. Your assertion that it is sin makes your claim to fall under "matters of faith". Therefore it is up to you to prove that your assertion is true ... it is not up to anyone to prove that what you are saying is false if you have not first proven it true. You haven't.



The scriptures are too numerous to mention, and frankly I'm shocked it's being questioned. Every mention of rearing a child in a household of faith, raising a child in the way he ought to go, to bring up little ones where Scripture permeates their entire environment - on doorposts and foreheads.

It is objective, plain truth that 8-10 hours a day for 12 years in a place that forms young minds according to the worldview of unbelief cannot, in any way, be reconciled with the commands to love, protect, teach and disciple one's children. If someone is incapable of fending for themselves, why would we send them to lions, wolves, and devils...as kind and non-threatening as they may appear? Many are blessed and preserved by God despite their worldly education, and I praise Him for that. 

For a short list:

Lev. 18:21
Deut 4:9-10, 25
Deut 6:1-10
Deut 11:19-21
Deut 31:12,13
Deut 32:46
Ezra 9:11-13
Psalm 34:10-11
Psalm 78:4-6
Lamentations 1:5
Matthew 7:10-12
Mark 9:42.

And I'm stopping because it's bedtime.

We are commanded to surround our children's lives and minds with the words of the Lord, with His great deeds, and protect them from those who would cause them to sin.

There is no question that an unbelieving (or worse, believing!) teacher at a public school giving a lecture applauding self-esteem, tolerance, evolution, naturalism, etc. is enticing little ones to sin. And they are sowing doubt about the greatness of our God. And the peers around them exert every possible influence toward carnality, greed and immaturity.

It _is_ on you to show that putting a child in an environment of unbelieving, immoral peers, under the instruction of unbelieving or misguided teachers, working from an openly-advertised unbelieving worldview is somehow consistent with the commands to love, protect, and teach our children.

_The command to teach our children about God, and model obedience in faith for them is violated by giving them over to people who do the exact opposite for the majority of time a child is awake._

Can you imagine this conversation?

Israelite: So, Moses, God tells me to instruct my son thoroughly in the Law, to love and protect him, and train him in the way they should go, right?

Moses: Yep.

Israelite: Awesome. I think I'll do that by giving the majority of his young life over to the instruction of unbelievers, and have most of his surroundings pillars of immorality. But I'll do a lot of devotions at home. Sound good?

Moses: Looks good to me.


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## Idelette (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't see the difference in service whether its a public school or any other community outreach. There will always be an element of worldliness when reaching out to the community. I wonder if you look at every public library or courthouse or park and think the same thing? Yet, these places are arguably just as heathen! The church is not going there to help promote a school agenda, they are going to serve the Lord by helping them paint! We are called to live in the world, to be lights, to minister to others, and to glorify God both in word and deed. We were created for good works....regardless of whether the children are there or not, or whether anyone even recognizes the work that the church has done! 

As believers, we are to do all things as unto the Lord, pleasing in His sight and for His glory! So we work not unto men, but unto the Lord! Inadvertently, we promote heathens all the time......the cars we drive, the clothes we buy, the places we eat, even the toothpaste we use....all major contributors to "heathen" causes of one variety or another! If we take these issues too far, we'd be better off living as the Amish sustaining ourselves so as to prevent any promotion of heathen causes. But, I for one, think the Lord made us not to divide ourselves so severely from the world that we should live in christian communes...but that we would be morally separate from the world! That we should still be in and yet not of this world.....that we might serve Him and glorify His name!


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## jogri17 (Jun 22, 2009)

It is not a sin to help a public school. You do not have to do the project but I really don't think it is wise to criticize the elders for something that may be just a personal preference rather than a strict gospel or even confessional issue.


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## Scott1 (Jun 22, 2009)

> *smhbbag*
> 
> Scott, in order to ask God for grace to go through with this even if I don't want to would require me to believe it's not sin. As long as I believe it's sin, I can't really ask God for grace to help me get out there and do it anyway.
> 
> ...



I think I'm understanding your concern, and would not override a conviction. Many times convictions are of the Holy Spirit and are for the specific purpose and calling he has on an individual's life.

But what you say here


> This whole ministry I am a part of exists to help poor people indiscriminately


 sounds like the reason you are volunteering to clean this school is because it is poor. Normally, outsiders in a ministry aren't responsible or needed to clean publicly supported schools. They have janitors and their management is responsible to keep the premises clean and safe. This sounds like a situation where something is broken, and they are, for whatever reason poor and needy- isn't that why the ministry group is targeting this school to clean it?

You also mention there are Christians, people of your church who are struggling to set a godly example amidst this mess. It appears the government is utterly failing to do its job and Christian volunteers have to come in from the outside, with their own resources and clean up their mess amidst all the humanist nonsense promoted around them as they do clean up the mess that philosophy has wrought


> There are Christians from my church who teach there. And they do their best to counteract what influence the rest of the teachers give.



While I would not override an abiding conviction (God may have other reasons for that), what you have said seems to make the case more for doing this, prayerfully, with a servant's heart, and unto the glory of God alone.

If you pray about this and do not have peace, do not do it. But if you ask God for grace to do this, please let us know how God used this for His Honor and His Glory.


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## calgal (Jun 22, 2009)

Wow @ replies.  And what message is this kind of response sending to the kids who are attending a public school at your church(es) or the teachers/administrators GOD has called to be light in the schools?


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## Philip (Jun 22, 2009)

Jumping in here.

For starters, I was brought up with the blessing of homeschooling. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot from it. However, the ability to give a child a Christian education assumes a couple things: a) you (as a parent) are wealthy enough to afford sending that child to a Christian school or to homeschool them b) you as a parent have enough time to work with your children.



> The scriptures are too numerous to mention, and frankly I'm shocked it's being questioned. Every mention of rearing a child in a household of faith, raising a child in the way he ought to go, to bring up little ones where Scripture permeates their entire environment - on doorposts and foreheads.



I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and _not_ to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.

There's a good case to be made, in fact, that the public schools are the largest mission field in America today (or maybe second to higher education).


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## Edward (Jun 22, 2009)

You have asked a couple of questions. 

First, no, given the hardness of your position, you should not provide service to the poor and needy. You would just poison the atmosphere for those who wish to provide a witness to the community. You might devote that time to prayer. 

Second, you should not be dishonest if asked. If you are that far out of sync with your church leadership, you should either try to teach them of your position, or find another church.


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## dr_parsley (Jun 22, 2009)

(new here - )

But to the OP:

1) Try some submission and humility. Mention your concerns to your eldership in a spirit of total submission and let them explain it to you.

2) If you still don't agree, do a "please excuse me as the weaker brother in this but I think I don't want to ruin it for you".

What you can't do is to pit yourself against the opinion of your church and leave it at that or to make some excuse, because that will take you out of fellowship through dishonesty and pride. I often get into trouble for too much honesty, but it's better that than covering up difference of opinion and let it fester. If differences of opinion are open and gracious then one develops an atmosphere within the church where disagreements can happen with little risk of dissension.

Now as to the issue itself, both sides of the "argument" seem to me valid. If you let the school be grimy, it might be closed down and replaced with a better school, but it's only a possibility. On the other hand we love our enemies and do good to them. Given two valid arguments, leave the detailed strategy up to God and do good to others.


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## kvanlaan (Jun 22, 2009)

> I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and not to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.



The scriptures may be referring to spiritual training and not the three R's, but don't think that they're not getting spiritual training there; that's the real issue. If it were simply math skills and reading skills, the long knives would not come out every time we bring this up for discussion. But that is not the case.

As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; _we_ are.


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## Mushroom (Jun 22, 2009)

Yep. Can't find the scripture reference for using our most vulnerable members to evangelize in a snake pit.


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## OPC'n (Jun 22, 2009)

kalawine said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> > Would everybody be exhorting Jeremy to do this if it were a Muslim madrassa? A Cambodian re-education camp? How 'bout a Christian Identity white supremacist summer camp for kids? Or even more appropriate, repaint a temple of Molech, where children are passed through the fire?
> ...



No and we wouldn't let anyone disgrace the house of God either, however, Jesus did cause a fish to produce a coin so that Peter could give it to Caesar. I'm sure that coin along with all the other coins could be said to help Caesar, who was worshipped as a god, promote his agenda.

-----Added 6/22/2009 at 11:54:45 EST-----



Joshua said:


> I find it disconcerting that many of you would press the man to disobey his scruple of conscience, one that is borne from a Biblically-informed study. You don't have to agree with it, but to advise him in this regard is not very charitable. Notice, he _didn't_ ask if he _should_ or _should not_ do this. He asked how he should approach the session of his church with his declination.



Josh, he did ask us if he were wrong to not go and help the school and that's why we responded the way did. Here's his quote:



> In a few weeks, we are participating with other local churches in something called "Hope for Durham," and our church will be cleaning and painting a local public school in a very poor area. I am very conflicted about this. Actually, I'm not at all and I don't want to have anything to do with it. *Am I wrong*?



If he hadn't asked this, then I certainly would have just shook my head and went to the next thread. When someone asks if we think they should or shouldn't do something we are going to tell them our opinion. Also, the title is asking if he should. Some piece of him wanted us to confirm his actions.


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## Fly Caster (Jun 22, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; _we_ are.



The argument that our Christian kids are to be left in public schools to influence the heathen is not very different from an argument that the Hebrew kids should have been left behind in Egypt to be "salt & light" there.


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## OPC'n (Jun 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> No, Jeremy, you're not wrong. You should obey your conscience, and humbly approach the session to let them know why you cannot participate.



Agreed. If his conscious doesn't allow him even though it might not be a sinful act, the fact that *he* thinks it is would cause him to sin if he did do it. We all have our hang-ups and it's good to learn the other side of what we believe, but only God can confirm our belief or change them to a biblical stance.


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## Pergamum (Jun 22, 2009)

There are many "good things" (civil goods) that we can do with our time.

I could pick up litter on my days off, I could help clean my local park. I could adopt a highway. There are enough things such as this to eat ALL of my spare time.

If a church begins to primarily do these "civil good" sort of things and if there is pressure for its members to do these sorts of things, this is a huge waste of resources for the kingdom. 

Sure, it's all good, but again, "the good" if often the enemy of "the best"and the church ought to be wise stewards of its time. To organize such "civil goods" over direct witness is not wise for a church.

Therefore, if Jeremy thinks the idea of cleaning public tax-supported schools (which have janitors) is lame (by the way, the gubbermint aint going to clean the homes of homeschoolers) then by no means should he engage in this waste of time for himself.


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## he beholds (Jun 22, 2009)

I actually disagree--there are, for sure, Covenant children in public schools. 

The examples about Muslim centers, etc, don't fit, because there are not, presumably, Covenant children there. Covenant children are Covenant children, regardless of how their parents choose to train them.

-----Added 6/22/2009 at 01:54:55 EST-----

Oh, but I fully support you obeying your conscience! I am more commenting that I don't think it is a sin.


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## Gloria (Jun 22, 2009)

Simply_Nikki said:


> I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...
> 
> But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.



All I could muster was a "wow" but you've summed up my thoughts on this quite well. Thank you.


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## Idelette (Jun 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I find it disconcerting that many of you would press the man to disobey his scruple of conscience, one that is borne from a Biblically-informed study. You don't have to agree with it, but to advise him in this regard is not very charitable. Notice, he _didn't_ ask if he _should_ or _should not_ do this. He asked how he should approach the session of his church with his declination.



I agree with you Josh, except he did ask "Should I help clean a Public School?"....so we were simply responding to that. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think I was trying to press him to do otherwise....I was simply sharing my opinion since he asked. If Jeremy truly feels that this would be a sin for him, then he shouldn't go against his conscience and partake in this work. He should simply approach the session and tell them why he feels that way....I'm sure they will respect him and relieve him of any obligations that he may have had.


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Jun 22, 2009)

There is a difference between saying something is sin and something is not wise. Doing the work would not be sin...is it wise? That is debatable... and if it is matter of conscience then don't violate that. The main thing is to not feel bound to do that if you don't feel particularly good about wanting to invest your time in that way as there are plenty of other avenues of service. Some folks feel comfortable with pushing tracts on the street. I would never do that to be honest. I evangelize in other ways.


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## Idelette (Jun 22, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Technically, Ladies, yes, you're both right. A flippant oversight on my part: my apologies. My main point, contextually, is that he's already resolved as to what he should do, and the way I understood his post was according to his last few sentences, wherein he was asking for suggestions as to how he should approach his elders.



I'm out of thanks...so I just wanted to thank you. I also wanted to apologize, I guess I only skimmed the original OP and thought that he was asking for our opinions...... my apologies ,Jeremy, if I've caused any offense.....it was truly not intended!


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Jun 22, 2009)

In His Grip said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > Technically, Ladies, yes, you're both right. A flippant oversight on my part: my apologies. My main point, contextually, is that he's already resolved as to what he should do, and the way I understood his post was according to his last few sentences, wherein he was asking for suggestions as to how he should approach his elders.
> ...




Bad girl...  ((hug))


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...
> 
> But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.





> All I could muster was a "wow" but you've summed up my thoughts on this quite well. Thank you.



I realized I had not addressed this point.

The comparisons given are not related to each other at all.

Microsoft: I buy a product.
School: I give and volunteer my help.

Microsoft: The company's mission is the computer business, and does some other things on the side that are bad.
School: Its central mission is bad.

Microsoft: The company is responsible to God for what it does with the money it has _earned._ I am not responsible for what it does with its money.
School: I am responsible for how I spend _my_ time, and that time would be specifically spent to advance their ungodly mission.

I am not seeking to separate myself from all organizations having anything to do with the world. I am refusing to fight for the enemy and make his institutions more appealing or successful. 

In one case, I volunteer to give active aid to an organization whose central purpose is evil. In the other, I buy a legitimate product from an organization whose central mission is not evil. They are not analogous at all.



> I'm out of thanks...so I just wanted to thank you. I also wanted to apologize, I guess I only skimmed the original OP and thought that he was asking for our opinions...... my apologies ,Jeremy, if I've caused any offense.....it was truly not intended!



You would have caused offense if you attacked my character or motivations. Questioning my judgment is perfectly acceptable and good, and part of why this board is great.


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## jonmo (Jun 22, 2009)

Jeremy,

I guess I don't understand how the central purpose of the school is evil, based on the things you mentioned in your opening comments. Yes, it sounds like it has some views expressed on the walls that are questionable but, for example, having a misinformed view on global warming evidence of an evil central purpose. I don't know - I don't know the school or those involved - you do. 

Clearly it seems like this is something that gives you severe cause for concern and, on that basis, I think you would be fully justified if you graciously told your church leaders that you could not do it on grounds of conscience. 

I think I would come out on the other side if the decision was mine (and have done so with not dissimilar projects in NYC and London) but then maybe I grown too accustomed to environments where Christianity is not highly regarded and working within those parameters.


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> I guess I don't understand how the central purpose of the school is evil, based on the things you mentioned in your opening comments. Yes, it sounds like it has some views expressed on the walls that are questionable but, for example, having a misinformed view on global warming evidence of an evil central purpose. I don't know - I don't know the school or those involved - you do.



Those things (global warming, mindless tolerance, etc.) are but symptoms of the central evil of the institution. I'm not speaking of just one school that I know particular things about - this is a broad brush against all of them.

Their central goal: educating children while specifically removing our Lord and His Word from the exercise. That's evil, especially when done toward the children of believers, where they will inevitably (regardless of their perceived kindness) lead children into false ideas, feelings and perspectives. It is not possible to educate children while ignoring or denying Christ and not lead them astray in some way. And Christ tells us these folks would be better off with a millstone about their neck at the bottom of the ocean. I don't quite understand why we would voluntarily send our children to an institution like that.


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## Gloria (Jun 22, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > I notice a common thing in all of those scriptures, though: all of them are referring to spiritual training and not to reading, writing, and mathematics. Parents are certainly called to train their children in the Lord, but it doesn't follow that they can't delegate other things, even to a public school. I know many good Christian kids who have come out of the public schools, and have even shone the light of Christ into public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ITA with this. Totally....


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## BJClark (Jun 22, 2009)

kvanlaan;




> As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; _we_ are.



Was not Moses raised in heathen schools? And Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah? And did they not give a witness for God in those schools?

Dan 1:4 Children in whom [was] no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as [had] ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans. 

Dan 1:6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: Dan 1:7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel [the name] of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

However, if you can not in good conscience do the work, then don't..



> Their central goal: educating children while specifically removing our Lord and His Word from the exercise.



It is MY responsibility as my children's mother to teach them the things of God, not the schools...and if/when a teacher teaches contrary to our Christian beliefs I can certainly take that up with the teacher..and call them to task as to the subject's they are to be teaching.

And thus far, they are not taught Religious studies at school.


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

The fact that God uses a situation for his glory, and that He sustains His chosen in those times, is not an endorsement for us to willingly put ourselves there.


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## chbrooking (Jun 22, 2009)

Perhaps, but it does indicate that there isn't "always a way" to avoid it.

I can think of several scenarios in which a public school would be a necessary decision, none of them requiring slavery in Egypt or exile to Babylon, either.

This is just a drive-by post. I'm not a fan of public education, but I regard some of your rhetoric as a bit over the top. That said, I'll let you guys continue to duke it out.


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> Perhaps, but it does indicate that there isn't "always a way" to avoid it.



I specifically excluded times where the ungodly education was inflicted on the children/parents by force. This thread is about public schooling in the United States primarily, and I stick by my "always a way" for a believing parent here, assuming the local chapter of Child Protective Services hasn't kidnapped the kids.



> I can think of several scenarios in which a public school would be a necessary decision, none of them requiring slavery in Egypt or exile to Babylon, either.



What would that be?



> It is MY responsibility as my children's mother to teach them the things of God, not the schools...and if/when a teacher teaches contrary to our Christian beliefs I can certainly take that up with the teacher..and call them to task as to the subject's they are to be teaching.
> 
> And thus far, they are not taught Religious studies at school.



Respectfully, yes, they are taught Religious Studies every day at public school. They teach contrary to your Christian beliefs every day and every hour of the week. There is no neutrality. If one is not teaching Christianity, he is teaching Anti-Christianity. Every class a child takes in public school is a Religious Studies course.

Any time a teacher breaks up a fight and teaches the students about peaceful interaction and problem-solving without the name of Christ, that is religious teaching. It (very subtly) informs the student that the Biblical underpinnings of relationships and respect (that all are made in the image of God, that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, etc.) are not necessary.

When a teacher corrects a student who has been cheating, the student will learn that cheating is wrong because it only hurts themselves, or some such nonsense. This implicitly shows the student that proper moral behavior (not cheating) can rightly be achieved on a humanistic base. A real education would instruct the student that cheating is wrong because we are to be holy as God is holy, and God is not a deceiver.

There are an infinite number of other examples. These may seem small or minor, but over 12 years in the system they work their way into young minds in pernicious ways. Children chiefly, in my experience, learn to rely on their outward appearance to satisfy God because that is the only lesson they ever learned was important regarding morality in school. "Good" students are the most susceptible to this. 

Correction of moral behavior done in an unbelieving way can be more harmful to the child spiritually than no correction at all. And this is just one category of the things we subject children in public school to.


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## chbrooking (Jun 22, 2009)

An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children. 

That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.

By the way, I agree that you should not violate your conscience. I think your elders will understand. They may not agree -- and I hope you tone down your rhetoric when you speak with them. But don't do what you believe is sin.

Like I said... I intended to be drive by. Don't look for me to continue in this conversation.


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children.
> 
> That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.



If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.


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## satz (Jun 22, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.



God has decreed that children should be brought up in the fear and nurture of him, not that they should be homeschooled or christian schooled. In the case of a family that is forced by circumstances to consider using the public school system, how do you know that God's provision will not be in the form of preserving their children in the public school like he preserved Daniel in Babylon's "school"? There is no where near sufficient bible proof to ask a family to move six states away instead of using a public school.


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## Kiffin (Jun 22, 2009)

hmmmm....

I went to public school. To be more exact, I attended public school K-12, 1 year in a technical school, and then 3 semesters at a local college. After attending all those demonic, child sacrificing, idolatrous, sin promoting institutions, I think I came out okay . 

These Satanic institutions taught me how to: read and write, interact with many types of people, stay fit (gym class!), work for deadlines, think critically, etc etc. After all that CHAOS, I attended Bible College got my BA in Theology and right now I am trucking through summer Hebrew class in Seminary with an intent to graduate in December with an MA. I am okay.

My thoughts:
-painting the school will create a relationship with the school. It may possibly give the churches involved future opportunities to interact with students, staff, and faculty.
-what will the community think of the churches involved versus the churches that aren't? Who has more credibility?


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## smhbbag (Jun 22, 2009)

> God has decreed that children should be brought up in the fear and nurture of him, not that they should be homeschooled or christian schooled. In the case of a family that is forced by circumstances to consider using the public school system, how do you know that God's provision will not be in the form of preserving their children in the public school like he preserved Daniel in Babylon's "school"? There is no where near sufficient bible proof to ask a family to move six states away instead of using a public school.



Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue. And if it is sin, then it would justify any means to avoid it.

To voluntarily send a child among wolves to be taught, while trusting He will take away the consequences of the bad decision, is to tempt God in a way I would not want to flirt with.


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## Theognome (Jun 22, 2009)

Clean it with a bulldozer.

Theognome


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## kvanlaan (Jun 22, 2009)

> If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.



Jeremy, 

...and if no-one will lift a finger to help, _*are they (we) not worse than infidels*_???

Yes.

PS - ditto to Bill, too.


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## historyb (Jun 22, 2009)

I went to a public school and a Christian school, the place I found about drugs and all that bad stuff was at the Christian School


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 22, 2009)

I disagree with your caricature of public schools. Which being part of your premise is the problem. I also disagree with the presupposition that it is a majority of their lives. I disagree that public schools are what you claim them to be uniformly. Are some schools what you say? Yes. But an informed parent has more influence in a public school than you realize. Can public schools teach everything that you want taught? No. Christianity is not explicitly taught, nor is any religious view. That is why I choose to home school my kids.

BUT, while that is true, there are bare facts (e.g., 2 + 2 = 4) that are taught which are taught regardless of what religious background one has. It doesn't matter what religion a person is, knowing "The sum of the measure of the interior angles of a triangle is 180 degrees" is basic knowledge. What is more important than even that knowledge is teaching how to think and question. Teaching students the basics of chemistry has no moral content. Teaching students how to write programs on computers has no moral content.

What you so rigorously state public schools are teaching is exactly what we don't teach ... and what public school teachers lament isn't taught at home either. The single most important thing that we cannot teach is moral values and ethics. At least not anything other than the basics of cheating gets you a zero, breaking the rules gets you handed over to the administration.

Just to let you know, I teach math, and while I do teach that all logical conclusions start with axioms (things taken as true without proof ... presuppositions if you will) that is the extent of what I have _time_ to cover in math classes. Can math be taught with Christ as the center? Yes, I do so at home. But the total time involved is minuscule compared to the time spent teaching the content of math even with my own children that you are not ceding 8 hours of instruction in godlessness to then counter with 10 minutes at home. At home we have Bible as a class ... but other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes every few weeks there isn't much of Christian doctrine taught in math class at home. Nor is there much in history, though arguably more. In science, there is a more pervasive presence of looking at "the book of God's work" but only in those subjects that are not lab based. Physics and Chemistry are ones in which it is just as rare to be able to bring anything of religion into the picture (10 minutes every couple of weeks, if not less, with the rest content in the subject).

Your caricature of public schools is not what I have seen, it certainly isn't what I teach. Do I teach Christian doctrine? No, I teach mathematics. Can mathematics be taught with an occasional excursion into the basis of thought which under girds all logic and reason and then acknowledge that the only universe that exists is the one which God created and that in order to rightly understand it takes the axioms which model that universe that God created? Yes. As a percent of the time I spend in teaching my own children math, what amount is that? Less than 1%. So of the "8 hours a day" (9 - 4 here by the way) the amount of time you need to supplement what I teach is in total? Add whatever you spend in family devotions, put in another 5 minutes to supplement what I have taught (and oh yes, make sure you know what I am teaching ... just in case you get a rogue teacher that does teach religion).

What you assume is that public schools are always teaching exactly the opposite of what you would teach, and that you have no time to go over what was taught, familiarize yourself and know what is happening in your child's life, or do anything of appropriate supervision of education. You are saying there is nothing but a dichotomy of private instruction or public schooling. I disagree, and I welcome parents not only to talk (email in this day and age is a great benefit) but to actually visit in the classroom. (Boy would I welcome a parent of little "johnny" who is disruptive, disrespectful, and doesn't have his homework!) If you delegate the responsibility of education to a Christian school, do you make sure they are not teaching semi-pelagian garbage to your child? Do you know they aren't teaching heresy? The only way to do that is to know what is being taught, and go over it with your child every day, just like you would have to in a public school.

If you want to be sure of what is being taught every second of every day, then you better either do it yourself (I love home schooling) or by making sure you are there when it is taught. For many people, that isn't possible. Delegation of instruction is as old as the Samuel being given to the temple to be brought up. Was that a good trust? Was Eli a good father that Hannah's son should be brought up by him? Of course not! Eli was a wicked father that did not discipline his sons and so he lost them both and died on the same day. Did God use Samuel greatly in any case? Yes.

If you state "the only acceptable way to educate a child is to home school them, and education is not a delegable responsibility" then at least you have something on which to stand ... but if you allow delegation of education at all, then you have to provide oversight of that education.

I do not believe that the education of our children is non-delegable. We take them to church on Sunday and allow them to hear a Sunday School teacher. We sit with them in church and allow the pastor to teach them. (I have even allowed my children to go to church with someone else when I was sick! Your position would be that was sin, because I allowed someone to teach my child without filtering it.)

If education is delegable, then that does not relieve you of the responsibility to assure they are given an education in Godliness. You still have to know what they are taught in all areas. If you are going to challenge what is being taught, you are going to have to know a whole lot more than just what reading blurbs off the internet will tell you. Having children is a huge responsibility, and it is not for the faint of heart. If a parent is irresponsible enough to send their children to school and not stay involved, they should not have become a parent in the first place.

But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.


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## satz (Jun 22, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue. And if it is sin, then it would justify any means to avoid it.
> 
> To voluntarily send a child among wolves to be taught, while trusting He will take away the consequences of the bad decision, is to tempt God in a way I would not want to flirt with.



As I said, the sin as described by the bible is not training a child to fear the Lord. If a child has to attend a public school, it just means the parent or parents have to expand more effort. If being educated by unbelievers was in itself a sin, Daniel would have refused the entire programme that the Babylonians put him through, not just the food, but he did not. 

There is a difference between chosing to place a child into PS to preserve the family lifestyle and doing so because of genuine difficulties, economic or otherwise. A individual christian may decide that he is unable to do that, but there is no bible warrant for making a blanket condemnation of christians who do chose to use the PS when forced to by circumstances. 

And I don't believe (at least for now) it is tempting God because a) there is no clear command of God violated and b) God has always shown he can and will preserve his people spiritually in difficult circumstances, whether Daniel in Babylon, Joseph in Egypt or countless other examples.


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## kvanlaan (Jun 22, 2009)

> But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.



And I can give you a personal example of the public school where I went for 1 year that is everything negative that has been alluded to and oh so much more.

Now you have not proved your premise.

-----Added 6/22/2009 at 10:21:33 EST-----

Weren't we talking about cleaning a school at some point?


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## calgal (Jun 22, 2009)

Jeremy with all due respect, you do not have to participate if this service project truly is against your conscience. One thing to consider is that the parents ultimately determine how well any kind of schooling is being done and what kind of experience a child will have. There are homeschool horror stories, Christian School horror stories and Public School horror stories enough to write a library full of books (angst filled no less).  I am stepping away now.


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## Gloria (Jun 22, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> > I haven't read through all the posts yet, but one thing just hit me. Don't we engage with non-Christians organizations all the time? Yet does it mean we are supporting the spread of the heathen gospel of hedonism. I mean painting a school, I think, falls way to the bottom of the list of something that constitutes support when compared with giving money to an organization or company who's owner(s) believes in tolerance and hedonism. Anyone use windows? or any microsoft software? Bill Gates does support "Gay Rights" and spreads his message of tolerance around the globe, does that mean you are supporting his cause by patronizing his products? I don't think so...
> >
> > But if you have the conviction to not have anything to do with an organization or company pertaining to the world, then... I certainly as a sister wouldn't ask one to participate in it. But I must say one's options will be severely limited.
> 
> ...




If you feel like this (in the red) is what you will be doing by painting the school then do what you feel. Others have already responded with how you shold approach the elders. 

I must say that I don't think the example used is completely unrelated. Here's why using the same example: In buying producs from Microsoft, you're supporting Bill Gates financially. This allows him to stay in the public arena and have the funds to continue to make his voice heard regarding so called "gay rights." I don't feel comfortable placing "business" in a completely separate lane from spirituality. Everything in life has a relation to God because God is sovereign. 

I can apply the same logic you've used to say that the fact that you KNOW Bill Gates is a supporter of "gay rights" implicates you as a supporter of "gay rights" because you are helping to maintain his platform by buying his products. I see that you've tried to separate this matter by making it an issue of what he does with the money and influence based on his own convictions and priorities from you personally going out and supporting 'gay rights' yourself, but the fact that you KNOW that he will use the platform for an ungodly purpose while still purchasing Microsoft products implicates you as well. Hope that was clear. I'm no fully convinced of this, but again this is just another presentation, following the logic you're using in regards to painting the school (from the OP and the post I'm responding to).

Again, do what you the word says is right. If the Comforter is convicting you and warning you that painting this school is a sin against God, then don't do it. Then use wisdom and be gracious when sharing your convictions with the elders. Let it be conviction by the Spirit through God's word and not some personal preference. If it's a personal preference, my reponse remains "wow."


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## chbrooking (Jun 22, 2009)

Okay, I can't resist. You've successfully drawn me in.



smhbbag said:


> > An illiterate (or even barely literate) woman's husband dies or abandons her. She has no family. She (obviously) has no education. She goes to work (2 jobs) for peanuts to make ends meet. No money for Christian school. State is on her back to account for the education of her 4 children.
> >
> > That's not an unrealistic scenario at all. And it's awfully easy to say that the church will help, or a school will give a scholarship. Christian schools usually run on a shoestring. And I've seen churches think that they've done an amazing service to a family because they gave them $500 when the family lost their home in a flood. $500 won't feed a family for very long. And it certainly wouldn't educate 4 kids. It's easy to claim that assistance is available. But as one who has on multiple occasions cooked his last cup of rice not knowing where the next one was coming from, *I can tell you that "surely help is available" doesn't offer much solace to those in need.*
> 
> ...



You obviously missed the bolded sentence in my quote.

Sure. And how is church #4289 going to know that she's not a swindler? Sadly, they knock on church doors every day. The first question church #4289 is going to ask is, "Why are you calling us, when we're six states away?" The sort of financial outlay you are talking about is beyond the ability of most church budgets. I agree with you that churches SHOULD help her. But not all churches CAN help her. And the fact that they should is no reason to condemn her for not finding one that WOULD. 

It is so easy to SAY that someone will help, particularly for someone who is not in present need.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 22, 2009)

> Whether it is sin for children to be freely given to unbelievers to mold according to an unbelieving worldview is the entire issue.



Your view is wrong. That is not what the public schools are about. It is not what I do, and I teach in a public school. You equate the mission of the public school to this, and you are off base.

If that was what the mission of a public school was, then I might agree with you. But that is not the mission of any public school I have seen, it was not the mission of the public school I attended when I was young, and it certainly is not the mission I have every day in teaching. I do not give an unbelieving world view to my students, and for the most part, there is no time to even discuss anything of world view. It isn't happening in my classes. It isn't happening in any math class in my school (it better not be, or the teacher would be in trouble with not only the parents, but the department for not covering content, and the administration for not teaching "bell-to-bell"). While I cannot say for those classes I have not visited, I have visited the same is true there. Some things I would probably think would be a little "dicey" and if I had a child in one of those classes, I'd be careful to monitor what is taught, and be certain that what is taught is either countered at home (by staying on top of the notes the child brings home and discussing what was taught) or was presented with multiple views.

Could it be that you have taken the worst case ever presented, then made it the "norm" for all the schools? Is it possible that you have a _really_ bad teacher in a school that could be actively doing that? Yes. Does that make it the mission of public schools? No. Is it possible that one teacher at a Christian school is teaching pelegianism? Yes. Does that mean the school is a den of demons with a mission to corrupt those who attend and drive them all to hell? No.

Your brush is too broad. From what I can see, you are attempting to make it easy for you to categorize things as "good" and "bad" altogether without individual investigation. It isn't easy to make good, sound decisions based on knowledge ... it is altogether too easy to make "sound bite" judgments on things. And it is even more difficult to understand within the context of this age were *every* institution is at best an admixture of good and evil (even the best of churches have mixture and error).

There is light and salt at work in the public schools. There is evil as well. Just as there is at best in any church both truth and error, yet we do not cast off all churches in a call for perfection.

While I think you are correct in not helping, I believe the reason is more out of what has been said that you could not do so with a spirit of charity.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 23, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > If her local church is denying the gospel by not helping her more substantially, then she can seek out a real church that will. There are thousands upon thousands of good churches in this country, and all of them have listed phone numbers. One of them will say yes. It might be #4289 from 6 states away. But some family will take them in. God has decreed it. God's children are given the means to obey him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Three things:
1) the aid would have to be for what is needed, and even though you see it as a horrid thing to send children to public school, I see it as not the best, but not wrong.
2) I know what our church *can* and what it *cannot* do. We have a deacons' fund that we have to be very careful with. We are helping those who are in the church first, and we help them as much as the need as we are able. That does not mean we have the resources to send even two children to a private Christian school.

And just one more thing. Those that say that private schools ought to give such a parent's children "scholarships" so they can attend, how much do you donate to the school so they can pay a living wage to their teachers? The pay for a teacher in a public school is horribly low ... the county I work in pays math and science teachers so little they could triple their pay in private industry (I know I could, and was making more than twice what I do now, even after 7 years teaching). I make probably 2 or 3 times what the pay is in the average Christian school in my county.

If you aren't willing to pay the teachers a living wage, and you aren't willing to cough up $5,000 to $10,000 a year _per child_ for educating someone else's children, then don't complain when others don't do the same.

Let's look at the premise in reverse ... that is instead of saying because it is God's will, there has to be a way, look at the opposite proof:
Because it is not possible for some people to find a way to send their children to private Christian school, and they cannot home school, then it must be that it is NOT against God's law to send children to public school.​
I don't buy that position. I don't buy it from a theology position, but it would seem you would ... if not, let me know what your disagreement is; I really want to know. It would seem that a person confronted with an impossible choice would be able to say they know God doesn't forbid something because it is impossible to avoid.

BTW, my disagreement is that in a fallen world, even if what would be best is to home school a child, or to send them to private school, it is not always possible (and not sin for someone to be in that position--Job had lots of counsel from those that were ready to condemn him for sin because of the tragic events surrounding him, yet God condemned them, not Job).


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## JoeRe4mer (Jun 23, 2009)

> I don't see the difference in service whether its a public school or any other community outreach. There will always be an element of worldliness when reaching out to the community. I wonder if you look at every public library or courthouse or park and think the same thing? Yet, these places are arguably just as heathen! The church is not going there to help promote a school agenda, they are going to serve the Lord by helping them paint! We are called to live in the world, to be lights, to minister to others, and to glorify God both in word and deed. We were created for good works....regardless of whether the children are there or not, or whether anyone even recognizes the work that the church has done!



 I think this pretty much says it all in a more articulate way than I could. 

The fact is that public schools like *all* of our societies public institutions are mixed with various and often contradictory ideals. Simply hoping the school falls down will not change the fact that there are many young souls there in need of the gospel. Your witness is vital in areas like this and I think that this act of public service may put you in a good position to spread the gospel, that alone is reason enough.


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 23, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > But I still disagree with your assertion. You have not proven your premise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Point of logic. You do not prove any positive assertion by example. For instance, take the hypothesis 
All prime numbers are odd​Now I cite examples:
3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43​In fact, I could cite examples forever. But the problem is that it takes only a single counter example to prove the premise false. In this case the number 2 is prime, but it is even, not odd.

Your citing a single example where bad things happen is not proof. (Your experience in a public school is anecdotal evidence, not proof.)

But if I find a single counter example, the positive assertion is proven wrong. My citing my own classroom where I teach children pure mathematics without contradicting anything in scripture is a counter example and _proves_ the premise false.

You did not prove your premise, but I did disprove it.


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## ubermadchen (Jun 23, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > As for children shining the light of Christ into the public schools, I'd love to see a scripture reference on that. Nowhere is that even implied - our children are not to be the shock-troops of evangelism; _we_ are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brian Withnell (Jun 23, 2009)

ubermadchen said:


> I didn't know there was an age requirement in order to evangelize.
> 
> For the record, I was a heathen in public school for most of my life but was confronted by the gospel through my Christian friends who attended public school with me. I thank God for placing them there because they were definitely lights in the darkness for me.



Come to think of it, those Christian friends in public school had a similar impact on me. I do not know exactly when I embraced all of the necessary truths of the gospel in order to be saved ... I know there were instances of moving toward the truth, and a point where I did turn from my own path. But if it were not for those in public school that God used to draw me into his church, I would have been as one of the seed that fell in rocky soil.


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## Knoxienne (Jun 23, 2009)

historyb said:


> I went to a public school and a Christian school, the place I found about drugs and all that bad stuff was at the Christian School



Very true. I spoke with a woman in her fifties recently who was in a Christian school as a youth and she said girls were smoking in the bathrooms and locker rooms - imagine what goes on nowadays.


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## Pergamum (Jun 23, 2009)

Some quick points:

--Again, our kids are not to be sent out as missionaries into a corrupt world. They will usually be the ones changed, and not the ones who are effecting change.

--It is not a sin (probably) for Christian parents to send their kids to public school, but I would say in many places in the US it might be incredibly stupid depending on the local school situation.

--Whatever other reason there is for not wanting to be a volunteer janitor at a tax-supported institution, it is simply a matter of bad time management. Wanna use a few hours, clean your church first. If church members did this, they could save thousands per year in janitor bills. Come and clean my house!


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