# Which Law was a Guardian/Tutor unto Christ? (Gal 3:23-29)



## WrittenFromUtopia

God's Spirit writes:



> Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, *the law was our guardian* until Christ came, *in order that we might be justified by faith*. 25 But now that faith has come, *we are no longer under a guardian*, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [6] nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.



My viewpoint on this passage has recently changed, and I am curious to see what others think.

Is the "law" that served as our guardian, to teach us justification by faith alone, the law in general, the moral law, the judicial law, or the ceremonial/Levitical law?

Why?

Discuss.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

The key to answering the question, I believe, is *how* can the law teach us justification by faith? Do moral laws teach us this? Judicial case laws?

Think about the offering of Isaac and how Abraham was justified by faith. Think about the purpose of sacrifice and what it typified and signified for the Jews.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

Bahnsen's lectures recently opened my eyes to the reality of this passage and it really makes a lot of sense and is very significant, especially among rabid anti-nomianism in our day.

I think you are seeing it exactly as I see it now, Josh. Justification by faith means believing that your sins are dealt with by another, believing something that is "beyond us" and not our doing. It is the imputation of our sin to another and the imputation of righteousness back towards us.

None of this is taught in the moral or judicial law of the Older Testament (both of which cannot be logically separated, but that is another topic altogether...).


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## VanVos

I personally could do with a fifth option, which is Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law. In Gal 3 Paul deals with the Law as a unit. And the context is Sinai Gal 3:17. I do believe that the moral law/will of God is still binding on all people but the Mosaic Law as an economy is abrogated by the finished work of Christ Heb 8:13. 

VanVos

[Edited on 8-14-2005 by VanVos]


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## Larry Hughes

It is all the Law and especially the moral Law. As Calvin points out if Christ died only to fulfill the ceremonial Law leaving us to fulfill the moral Law then Christ's death was nothing. As He would have died for the infinitely lesser and it would be supremely arrogant to think that men fulfill the moral Law (the infinite), the very Law we fell from, while Christ fulfilled only the ceremonial aspects that men can almost do.

Even more as Calvin points out the externals of the Law, cermonial, are inconsequintial compared to the heart of the Law. For the moral Law of the heart is summed up under "Love the Lord your God with ALL your HEART, mind, soul and strength and the second is like the first to love your neighbor as yourself." Do you hear what that says? How is the second like the first? For the heart of the Law is utter and complete altruistic love for God and neighbor with absolutely NO self or vested interest. That means not even and especially inwardly (the heart) REGARDLESS of the external "doings". We can almost do the external but the internal is impossible. Especially when we "do" the Law externally to "please" God so that we in the end might be in heaven. That is completely contrary to THE LAW which is utter selflessness. This is the true Law, Law = Love and Love = Law. We are condemned for our not loving and this is love must be altruistic charity. IF I'm doing the Law outwardly in order to please God, gain heaven and be thus assured, THEN I am not doing it altruistically but rather selfishly and the greatest of selfishness - eternal gain. This is why when we are fallen we are abject bond slaves unto sin for there is NO way back without the alien righteousness of another, namely Christ.

Calvin was also aware of the position concerning the moral/ceremonial Law in his time as well - that spoke of the moral Law/love that is something "we can do" as in being moral unto the Law or Love as required. And to this he rightly said, "...as if that is easier..." (than the cerimonial law).

The Law condemns us of our foolish thinking that we do it (moral Law) and drives us unto terror driving us to the only way Christ. It does this by shutting all other doors.

We cannot even stand a passing glance into the real Law let alone a sustained stare for we are people with unclean hearts, eyes, ears and mouths. If you can "stare" into God's Law and stand it, then you are not starring into God's Law at all but an idol of your own making. You have not really heard God's Law but just the outer Words forming the language. If you really hear God's Law, you will flee to Christ and Him alone.

The position that this passage speaks of the ceremonial or some other Law IS Rome's Position and was the Pharisees as well I might add.

If you think you can "do" the Law, then go now and sell all that you have. Distribute it to the poor and then come and follow God, and you would have eternal life. If you think that this speaks merely of a "willingness" to do so then you are deceived. For what man in his right mind would have the infinite treasure of eternal life held out to him that is infinitely greater than even Bill Gates fortune, offered by the small price of giving all one presently has unto the poor, and then say, "It doesn't mean I have to, just to be willing to do so." If one was truly willing to do so and infinite treasure was offered, then what's holding one back? I'm willing to eat a pizza and if you put one before me, I'll do so. How much more eternal life if I'm truly "willing"? Now you see the real force of the Law of God and the real power of your/my sin - and hence the driving to Christ.

Larry


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## Peter

The law (moral) leads us to Christ by showing us our inability to keep it in perfection.

Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God.


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## Texas Aggie

From my perspective, all the law points to Christ (Moral, Ceremonial and the Judgments).

Unregenerate man can not and will not obey the law. Under the New Covenant, a regenerate man has the "will" and the equipment to obey the law perfectly.... and there is also provision for one's forgiveness upon an act of disobedience.

Through faith (given only by God) one is made a partaker of the New Covenant. The guardian (all the law which served as a protective measure against sin) is no longer binding for one's justification. The demand for your death has been paid via the satisfaction of Christ´s atonement.... the demand for your obedience has not been abrogated (sanctification).


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## WrittenFromUtopia

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> The law (moral) leads us to Christ by showing us our inability to keep it in perfection.
> 
> Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God.



Bahnsen deals with and refutes this common position.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

I think we might be overlooking this passage as to what it is saying.



> the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith



Of course the moral law shows us our inability, but it doesn't teach us justification by faith. Knowing that we are not to murder does not teach us justification by faith. Knowing that we should keep the Sabbath does not teach us justification by faith.

However, believing that our sins are imputed to an animal for sacrifice, symbolizing the atonement for our sins, teaches us justification by faith (more specifically, it taught Israel this).


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## WrittenFromUtopia

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> The guardian (all the law which served as a protective measure against sin) is no longer binding for one's justification.



When was obedience to the law *ever* for justification post-Fall?


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## Puritanhead

I said entirity!


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## Puritanhead

Heck, I cannot obey the law either aggie... That's where Jesus comes in.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Heck, I cannot obey the law either aggie... That's where Jesus comes in.



No one can obey the law of themselves, that is why we have the Spirit of God and the Law on our hearts in the New Covenant *so that we can obey*, not so that we can simply say "woe is me, I cannot obey Lord!"


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## Peter

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Peter_
> The law (moral) leads us to Christ by showing us our inability to keep it in perfection.
> 
> Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bahnsen deals with and refutes this common position.
Click to expand...


Bahnsen v. Luther, Calvin, the rest of the Reformation. Please explain how Bahnsen refutes it. I'm not about to take this on Bahnsen's opinion considering how he's outwieghed here. Also, I see the view that the ceremonial law is a schoolmaster as correct as well. The 2 views are not exclusive.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

What is your viewpoint of the Law today, then? I'm confused.


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## Peter

Seeing our guilt under the Law we give up our hopes of life by the righteousness of the Law and trust in the righteousness which is of faith. We no longer need the Law as a schoolmaster to show us the way to Christ but it still serves as a rule for life (in every capacity).


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## just_grace

*The Law...*

Abraham who's faith in God was counted to him as righteousness, was the prototype of all who were justified by faith. The law was a parenthetical dispensation, introduced to serve a tempory purpose, but now rendered obsolete by the coming of Christ, the true offsping of Abraham, in whom the promises and their fulfilment were embodied.

The Galatians did not realize what a retrograde step they were being encouraged to take: a step back from freedom to bondage, from maturity to infancy, from the status of sons to the status of servants. They had come of age in Christ: why should they want to revert to the apron-string stage?

The beginning of their Christian life had been attended by manifestations of the presence and power of the Spirit: were they now to seek the perfection of Christian life in ordinances of an outmoded regime, related not to the Spirit but to the flesh?


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## Texas Aggie

The law has nothing to do with you justification as an unregenerated man. This is something given to you by God via Christ's work (you can not and will not obey the law). Your righteousness is as filthy rags prior to regeneration, afterwards it is counted (and part of your sanctification).

The law has much to do with your sanctification. Under the terms of the New Covenant provided by God, you can not escape the law. It is written in your heart and in your mind.

You also have been given a heart transplant (your will has been circumcised to conform to the will of God). You now have a heart to know Him and delight in all His commandments.

The Spirit has been given to you (dwelling within the believer who is now the temple of God). The Spirit will not lead you to do anything contrary to the law. You have the law and you have the means to obey the law perfectly (because the Spirit within is absolutely perfect).

You now sin because you willfully choose to sin despite the Spirit. There is also provision for our sin as Christ is the High Priest providing a continual sprinkling at the throne for your infraction.

The demand of the law which requires your obedience has not been done away with via Christ's work. Obedience to the law is simply an expectation of those in His Kingdom.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XIX:



> VI. Although true believers be not under the [moral, see section V] law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] *together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15]* It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]
> 
> [15]*GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.* ROM 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ROM 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



Westminster Larger Catechism:



> Q. 96. What particular use is there of the *moral* law to unregenerate men?
> A. The *moral* law is of use to unregenerate men, to awaken their consciences to flee from wrath to come,[410] *and to drive them to Christ;[411]* or, upon their continuance in the estate and way of sin, to leave them inexcusable,[412] and under the curse thereof.[413]
> 
> [411]*Galatians 3:24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.*


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## Larry Hughes

Josh,

I wasn't singling you out. My apologies about that. For the record I was not talking about Josh or anyone in specific - just in general to a an open audience. 

Very bad way to post it on my part, sloppy. Please forgive me Josh, I always consider you as one of the staunch defenders of true justification as our history of discussions together should show forth.

I was trying to set forth that even sanctification is rooted in the alien work of Christ that is the power to do it - once the thunder and threat of the Law is gone, satisfied by Christ, the Law then becomes "content" if you will. It becomes, this is what a Christian should strive to "look like" - not to live but living already, "do this". But if it thunders and slays you afresh hesitate none to go straight back to the cross where life and power are found afresh.

Larry


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## WrittenFromUtopia




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## Peter

The reformers said once we have faith the _use of the moral Law as a schoolmaster to drive us to Christ_ is abrogated. Not the entire moral law, just that particular use of the moral law. Notice how the WLC has a separate question for uses of the Law for unbelievers and for believers.

[Edited on 8-15-2005 by Peter]


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## WrittenFromUtopia

I completely agree the moral law does not justify us, but I don't believe it was the schoolmaster that Paul speaks of in Galatians 3. If you compare the way he describes this law and the law elsewhere (Cf. Colossians), it seems clear to be describing the ceremonial laws. I'll keep studying, thanks for the insights, guys.


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## Peter

Question 96: What particular use is there of the moral law to unregenerate men?

Answer: The moral law is of use to unregenerate men, to awaken their consciences to flee from wrath to come, and to drive them to Christ; or, upon their continuance in the estate and way of sin, to leave them inexcusable, and under the curse thereof.

(one proof text is Gal 3:24)

Question 97: What special use is there of the moral law to the regenerate?

Answer: Although they that are regenerate, and believe in Christ, be delivered from the moral law as a covenant of works, so as thereby they are neither justified nor condemned; yet, besides the general uses thereof common to them with all men, it is of special use, to show them: How much they are bound to Christ for his fulfilling it, and enduring the curse thereof in their stead, and for their good; and thereby to provoke them to more thankfulness, and to express the same in their greater care to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Matthew Poole on Gal. 3.24:



> 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
> 
> _The law_, both the law contained in ordinances and the moral law, _was our schoolmaster_; serving us in the same stead that a schoolmaster in a school doth, who only fitteth children for higher degrees of learning at universities. _To bring us unto Christ_: the ceremonial law showed us Christ in all his types and sacrifices; the moral law showed us the absolute need of a Mediator, as it showed us sin, accused and condemned us for it; and it showed us no help either for the guilt of sin contracted, or against the power of it. _That we might be justified by faith_; so that God's end in giving us the law was, that we might be fitted for Christ, and obtain justification by believing in him.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

...


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## turmeric

I think the ceremonial laws had an obvious catechetical function - to teach that a better mediator was coming with a better sacrifice. The moral law still teaches me to run to Christ - because I can't keep it. That doesn't mean I quit trying.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

If the moral law is still teaching us to run to Christ and to be justified by faith, wouldn't that overthrow the idea of it being the "guardian" of Gal. 3, which, according to Paul, we are no longer under?


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## Peter

LUTHER GAL 3:24. That we might be justified by faith. 
http://www.messiahskingdom.com/gospel/mlgalatians3.html

The Law is not to teach us another Law. When a person feels the full force of the Law he is likely to think: I have transgressed all the commandments of God; I am guilty of eternal death. If God will spare me I will change and live right from now on. This natural but entirely wrong reaction to the Law has bred the many ceremonies and works devised to earn grace and remission of sins.

The Law means to enlarge my sins, to make me small, so that I may be justified by faith in Christ. Faith is neither law nor word; but confidence in Christ "who is the end of the law." How so is Christ the end of the Law? Not in this way that He replaced the old Law with new laws. Nor is Christ the end of the Law in a way that makes Him a hard judge who has to be bribed by works as the papists teach. Christ is the end or finish of the Law to all who believe in Him. The Law can no longer accuse or condemn them.


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## Peter

Calvin

http://ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom41.iii.v.vi.html

But a question arises, what was the instruction or education of this schoolmaster? First, the law, by displaying the justice of God, convinced them that in themselves they were unrighteous; for in the commandments of God, as in a mirror, they might see how far they were distant from true righteousness. They were thus reminded that righteousness must be sought in some other quarter. The promises of the law served the same purpose, and might lead to such reflections as these: "œIf you cannot obtain life by works but by fulfilling the law, some new and different method must be sought. Your weakness will never allow you to ascend so high; nay, though you desire and strive ever so much, you will fall far short of the object." The threatenings, on the other hand, pressed and entreated them to seek refuge from the wrath and curse of God, and gave them no rest till they were constrained to seek the grace of Christ.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

So would we then interpret this passage to be referring to the ENTIRETY of God's Law as well??:



> Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by *abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances,* that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.



If so, how on earth do you reconcile that with:



> Matthew 5:17 "œ*Do not think* that I have come to *abolish* the Law or the Prophets; *I have not come to abolish* them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, *until heaven and earth pass away*, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



?


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## WrittenFromUtopia

Either Christ and Paul are at enmity with one another (God forbid the suggestion of such heresy) or they're talking about different aspects of the Law of God.

I simply do not see how the moral/judicial laws can be applied to Galatians 3 and reconciled with Christ's words in Matthew 5, along with the rest of the NT's claims to the validity and binding nature of all of God's Law, minus the ceremonial laws (Cf. Heb 7-10) of the Levites, on all peoples until heaven and earth pass away.


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## Larry Hughes

"œBut a question arises, what was the instruction or education of this schoolmaster? First, the law, by displaying the justice of God, convinced them that in themselves they were unrighteous; for in the commandments of God, as in a mirror, they might see how far they were distant from true righteousness. They were thus reminded that righteousness must be sought in some other quarter. The promises of the law served the same purpose, and might lead to such reflections as these: "If you cannot obtain life by works but by fulfilling the law, some new and different method must be sought. Your weakness will never allow you to ascend so high; nay, though you desire and strive ever so much, you will fall far short of the object." The threatenings, on the other hand, pressed and entreated them to seek refuge from the wrath and curse of God, and gave them no rest till they were constrained to seek the grace of Christ.

Such too, was the tendency of all the ceremonies; for what end did sacrifices and washings serve but to keep the mind continually fixed on pollution and condemnation? When a man's uncleanness is placed before his eyes, when the unoffending animal is held forth as the image of his own death, how can he indulge in sleep? How can he but be roused to the earnest cry for deliverance? Beyond all doubt, ceremonies accomplished their object, not merely by alarming and humbling the conscience, but by exciting them to the faith of the coming Redeemer. In the imposing services of the Mosaic ritual, every thing that was presented to the eye bore an impress of Christ. The law, in short, was nothing else than an immense variety of exercises, in which the worshippers were led by the hand to Christ." - John Calvin Commentary Galatians 3:24

"œVERSE 24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
This simile of the schoolmaster is striking. Schoolmasters are indispensable. But show me a pupil who loves his schoolmaster. How little love is lost upon them the Jews showed by their attitude toward Moses. They would have been glad to stone Moses to death. (Ex. 17:4.) You cannot expect anything else. How can a pupil love a teacher who frustrates his desires? And if the pupil disobeys, the schoolmaster whips him, and the pupil has to like it and even kiss the rod with which he was beaten. Do you think the schoolboy feels good about it? As soon as the teacher turns his back, the pupil breaks the rod and throws it into the fire. And if he were stronger than the teacher he would not take the beatings, but beat up the teacher. All the same, teachers are indispensable, otherwise the children would grow up without discipline, instruction, and training.
But how long are the scolding and the whippings of the schoolmaster to continue? Only for a time, until the boy has been trained to be a worthy heir of his father. No father wants his son to be whipped all the time. The discipline is to last until the boy has been trained to be his father's worthy successor.

The Law is such a schoolmaster. Not for always, but until we have been brought to Christ. The Law is not just another schoolmaster. The Law is a specialist to bring us to Christ. What would you think of a schoolmaster who could only torment and beat a child? Yet of such schoolmasters there were plenty in former times, regular bruisers. The Law is not that kind of a schoolmaster. It is not to torment us always. With its lashings it is only too anxious to drive us to Christ. The Law is like the good schoolmaster who trains his children to find pleasure in doing things they formerly detested.

VERSE 24. That we might be justified by faith.
The Law is not to teach us another Law. When a person feels the full force of the Law he is likely to think: I have transgressed all the commandments of God; I am guilty of eternal death. If God will spare me I will change and live right from now on. This natural but entirely wrong reaction to the Law has bred the many ceremonies and works devised to earn grace and remission of sins.

The Law means to enlarge my sins, to make me small, so that I may be justified by faith in Christ. Faith is neither law nor word; but confidence in Christ "who is the end of the law." How so is Christ the end of the Law? Not in this way that He replaced the old Law with new laws. Nor is Christ the end of the Law in a way that makes Him a hard judge who has to be bribed by works as the papists teach. Christ is the end or finish of the Law to all who believe in Him. The Law can no longer accuse or condemn them.
But what does the Law accomplish for those who have been justified by Christ? Paul answers this question next. 

VERSE 25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The Apostle declares that we are free from the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law for us. We may live in joy and safety under Christ. The trouble is, our flesh will not let us believe in Christ with all our heart. The fault lies not with Christ, but with us. Sin clings to us as long as we live and spoils our happiness in Christ. Hence, we are only partly free from the Law. "With the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:25.)
As far as the conscience is concerned it may cheerfully ignore the Law. But because sin continues to dwell in the flesh, the Law waits around to molest our conscience. More and more, however, Christ increases our faith and in the measure in which our faith is increased, sin, Law, and flesh subside.
If anybody objects to the Gospel and the sacraments on the ground that Christ has taken away our sins once and for always, you will know what to answer. You will answer: Indeed, Christ has taken away my sins. But my flesh, the world, and the devil interfere with my faith. The little light of faith in my heart does not shine all over me at once. It is a gradual diffusion. In the meanwhile I console myself with the thought that eventually my flesh will be made perfect in the resurrection." -- Martin Luther on Galatians

Blessings,

Larry


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> If the moral law is still teaching us to run to Christ and to be justified by faith, wouldn't that overthrow the idea of it being the "guardian" of Gal. 3, which, according to Paul, we are no longer under?



This I agree with. It (The Moral law) is no longer _guardian_.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

> "œVERSE 24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
> This simile of the schoolmaster is striking. Schoolmasters are indispensable. But show me a pupil who loves his schoolmaster. How little love is lost upon them the Jews showed by their attitude toward Moses. They would have been glad to stone Moses to death. (Ex. 17:4.) You cannot expect anything else. How can a pupil love a teacher who frustrates his desires? And if the pupil disobeys, the schoolmaster whips him, and the pupil has to like it and even kiss the rod with which he was beaten. Do you think the schoolboy feels good about it? As soon as the teacher turns his back, the pupil breaks the rod and throws it into the fire. And if he were stronger than the teacher he would not take the beatings, but beat up the teacher. All the same, teachers are indispensable, otherwise the children would grow up without discipline, instruction, and training.
> But how long are the scolding and the whippings of the schoolmaster to continue? Only for a time, until the boy has been trained to be a worthy heir of his father. No father wants his son to be whipped all the time. The discipline is to last until the boy has been trained to be his father's worthy successor.
> 
> The Law is such a schoolmaster. Not for always, but until we have been brought to Christ. The Law is not just another schoolmaster. The Law is a specialist to bring us to Christ. What would you think of a schoolmaster who could only torment and beat a child? Yet of such schoolmasters there were plenty in former times, regular bruisers. The Law is not that kind of a schoolmaster. It is not to torment us always. With its lashings it is only too anxious to drive us to Christ. The Law is like the good schoolmaster who trains his children to find pleasure in doing things they formerly detested.



Of this argument, Bahnsen basically says...

*Argument:*
A schoolmaster is harsh.
The moral Law is harsh.
The moral Law is a schoolmaster.

*Argument:*
Green is a color.
Blue is a color.
Green is blue.

In other words, that's an invalid argument.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> If the moral law is still teaching us to run to Christ and to be justified by faith, wouldn't that overthrow the idea of it being the "guardian" of Gal. 3, which, according to Paul, we are no longer under?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This I agree with. It (The Moral law) is no longer _guardian_.
Click to expand...


What I believe Bahnsen and others are arguing is that the moral Law was not a guardian, but a pattern for righteous living. The ceremonial law was temporary in nature from the very beginning. It was meant to eventually be abolished, the moral/civil Laws of God Almighty are NEVER meant to pass away or be abrogated. They are eternal truths, always binding on all peoples, Christians and pagans (but to different ends, of course). The ceremonial law patterned for the Israelites the idea of justification by faith and imputation of sin/righteousness in a primitive form "until the time of reformation."




> Hebrews 7:18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.


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## Peter

> Of this argument, Bahnsen basically says...
> 
> Argument:
> A schoolmaster is harsh.
> The moral Law is harsh.
> The moral Law is a schoolmaster.
> 
> Argument:
> Green is a color.
> Blue is a color.
> Green is blue.
> 
> In other words, that's an invalid argument.



In other words Bahnsen's attacking a strawman b/c no one is presenting the argument as deductive.


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## Peter

> What I believe Bahnsen and others are arguing is that the moral Law was not a guardian, but a pattern for righteous living. The ceremonial law was temporary in nature from the very beginning. It was meant to eventually be abolished, the moral/civil Laws of God Almighty are NEVER meant to pass away or be abrogated. They are eternal truths, always binding on all peoples, Christians and pagans (but to different ends, of course). The ceremonial law patterned for the Israelites the idea of justification by faith and imputation of sin/righteousness in a primitive form "until the time of reformation."



Again, we're not saying the moral law has been abrogated but only one particular use of the moral law.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

Okay, I see.


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## Peter

WLC Q96 & 97 are helpful in seeing that the moral law has one set of uses for the unregenerate and another for the regenerate. Once you become regenerate you no longer need to be under the moral law as a schoolmaster.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> The key to answering the question, I believe, is *how* can the law teach us justification by faith? Do moral laws teach us this? Judicial case laws?
> 
> Think about the offering of Isaac and how Abraham was justified by faith. Think about the purpose of sacrifice and what it typified and signified for the Jews.



Gabriel,

I think the problem is how you (and perhaps Bahnsen) are seeing Galatians 3:24. The text does not say that the law taught us justification by faith. It says that the law was a tutor to bring us to Christ. It has always been (as Peter points out) the Reformed (nay, Protestant) position that one of the purposes of the law (Calvin's 2nd purpose) is to show us our sinfulness, and drive us to Christ. Just as the paedogogus brought the student to school, so the law shows us that we are in need of a savior. The law shows us that we cannot keep it, and thus need a Christ. 

The ceremonial law is incapable of this - in fact the ceremonial law shows the opposite - that a (temporary) atonement can be made through the (ceremonial) law.

Once we are brought to Christ, we are justified by faith. Hence Paul's argument is:

The law brings us to (shows us) Christ, for the purpose (to the end that) we might be justified by faith.

I too would be interested to see Bahnsen's actual statements, since it appears (from your summary) that he contradicts the Confession, Calvin, Luther and almost all of Protestantdom. From that, I am surmising that he is being misunderstood.


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## pastorway

excuse me.......uhmmmmmm......

in the verse quoted the Bible says "the law" - it does not say "the moral law", "the ceremonial law", or "the civil law." It says, "the law."

To say anything more or less than "the law" is to add to the Word of God. So it is the same law that if we break one we have broken it all (James 2:10).

It is the attempt to divide "the law" that leads to confusion, misapplication, and misunderstanding of why "the law" was given and the role it plays in the life of believers.

"The law" reveals our need for Christ. Once we are aware of our need (effectually called) then "the law" no longer serves this purpose for us. But that does not mean that there are not other roles for "the law" to fulfill. 

Phillip


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> 
> 
> What I believe Bahnsen and others are arguing is that the moral Law was not a guardian, but a pattern for righteous living. The ceremonial law was temporary in nature from the very beginning. It was meant to eventually be abolished, the moral/civil Laws of God Almighty are NEVER meant to pass away or be abrogated. They are eternal truths, always binding on all peoples, Christians and pagans (but to different ends, of course). The ceremonial law patterned for the Israelites the idea of justification by faith and imputation of sin/righteousness in a primitive form "until the time of reformation."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we're not saying the moral law has been abrogated but only one particular use of the moral law.
Click to expand...



I believe that Fisher's _Marrow of Modern Divinity_ is exceedingly helpful in this area - showing the difference of the law as a covenant of works and the law under the covenant of grace.


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## WrittenFromUtopia

I think there must be confusion on my end, and if so, I apologize.

In _Theonomy in Christian Ethics_, in a few different places (pp. 130, 134, 266-67, etc.) Bahnsen refers to this passage as showing that we are helpless and in need of Christ, as the Confessions rightly say.



> *"Thereby the Law is a schoolmaster which leads sinful man to Christ, the sinless One (see Gal 3:24); by its oppressive and condemning yoke the law drives us to our emancipation in Christ."*
> (Greg Bahnsen, _Theonomy in Christian Ethics_, p. 130)



What I was referring to in this thread I heard in one of his lectures. Perhaps he was making a specific point but not speaking objectively about the idea of the guardian/tutor concept as a whole? I'll have to try to listen to it again and figure out what I missed (or perhaps he changed his stance since he wrote his dissertation?).

As for what brother Way said, I would strongly disagree. We created the label Trinity, extra biblical language, to help us understand the nature of God Almighty. If we do not distinguish between the various categories of the Law of God, then we are forced to read a Bible that contradicts itself, which is impossible. We must distinguish between the various categories of the Law because the Bible does so. The labels just help us understand the distinctions.


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## Dan....

This distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law that is being made in respect of Gal 3:24, as if Paul were refering to the ceremonial law alone, sounds similar to Steve Schlissel's chapter in _The Federal Vision_ (Not to asociate Bahnsen or anyone in this thread with Schlissel and the Federal Visionists, as I am sure that would be like comparing apples with oranges).

Schlissel argues that in Romans and in Galatians that when Paul refers to the deeds or works of the law (cf Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16; 3:28ff) that he is refering to the _Jewish_ (i.e. ceremonial) law:



> Whatever specific Paul might have in mind when speaking of the "deeds of the law" in Romans 3:28, it clearly was in reference to a _Jewish thing_, and not a Lutheran conception of the Law. -pg 260



Anyway, this teaching refered to in this thread would fit into the Federal Visionists thought process. The Federal Visionists (e.g. Schlissel) hold that, in Paul's teaching on the law in both Galatians and Romans, he is arguing against having the Gentiles become Jews ("Here it becomes clearer that the issue of keeping the Law is a subset of becoming Jewish", pg 246). Hence when it comes to Gal 3:24, the Federal visionists would logically understand the "law" in that verse to be refering specifically to the ceremonial (_Schlissel -"Jewish" _) law. I.e., that the ceremonial/Jewish law was a schoolmaster pointing to Christ and now, in the New Covenant administration, we no longer need the ceremonial aspect as a schoolmaster; therefore, dear Galatians, do not be circumcised (become Jews), lest you be "estranged from Christ".

Personally, I think I'll stick with what Schlissel calls "Luther's malady" (pg 255).

[Edited on 8-15-2005 by Dan....]


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## WrittenFromUtopia

Interesting..


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## Peter

> _Originally posted by Dan...._
> This distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law that is being made in respect of Gal 3:24, as if Paul were refering to the ceremonial law alone, sounds similar to Steve Schlissel's chapter in _The Federal Vision_ (Not to asociate Bahnsen or anyone in this thread with Schlissel and the Federal Visionists, as I am sure that would be like comparing apples with oranges).
> 
> Schlissel argues that in Romans and in Galatians that when Paul refers to the deeds or works of the law (cf Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16; 3:28ff) that he is refering to the _Jewish_ (i.e. ceremonial) law:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever specific Paul might have in mind when speaking of the "deeds of the law" in Romans 3:28, it clearly was in reference to a _Jewish thing_, and not a Lutheran conception of the Law. -pg 260
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, this teaching refered to in this thread would fit into the Federal Visionists thought process. The Federal Visionists (e.g. Schlissel) hold that, in Paul's teaching on the law in both Galatians and Romans, he is arguing against having the Gentiles become Jews ("Here it becomes clearer that the issue of keeping the Law is a subset of becoming Jewish", pg 246). Hence when it comes to Gal 3:24, the Federal visionists would logically understand the "law" in that verse to be refering specifically to the ceremonial (_Schlissel -"Jewish" _) law. I.e., that the ceremonial/Jewish law was a schoolmaster pointing to Christ and now, in the New Covenant administration, we no longer need the ceremonial aspect as a schoolmaster; therefore, dear Galatians, do not be circumcised (become Jews), lest you be "estranged from Christ".
> 
> Personally, I think I'll stick with what Schlissel calls "Luther's malady" (pg 255).
> 
> [Edited on 8-15-2005 by Dan....]
Click to expand...


It should be no surprise this is exactly the same argument (equivocating on the meaning of "Law") which Romanists have used since the 16th century to defend justification by works. See Calvin's commentary on Romans.


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## Puritanhead

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Heck, I cannot obey the law either aggie... That's where Jesus comes in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one can obey the law of themselves, that is why we have the Spirit of God and the Law on our hearts in the New Covenant *so that we can obey*, not so that we can simply say "woe is me, I cannot obey Lord!"
Click to expand...


Again, since I cannot fulfill the law to the last jot and tittle -- That's where Jesus comes in.


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## Texas Aggie

To say Jesus fulfills your responsibility to the law as a believer is completely true (but there is more beyond this statement). In essence, its a partial truth.

You have a responsibility in the New Covenant simply because you are involved (as a member of the two parties in agreement).

Your responsibility is simply obedience to the law. Although you can not obey the law as unregenerate, you can (and are expected to) as a partaker of the New Covenant.

There is provision for your sin when you choose to do your will as opposed to the Spirit's leadership. Perfect obedience is the ultimate goal (and you are involved with the process of sanctification). Your sin has been judged at the cross, but your obedience to the law will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat.

If you throw out the law and believe Christ will take care of all "œyour righteousness" then you may be surprised when you finally get to the throne. You have an active role and responsibility towards your sanctification.... its called obedience to the law (nothing more).

Ultimately you will be fully sanctified before His presence. You were sanctified from before the foundation, you are currently being sanctified (via the Spirit, the law and your will) and you will be fully sanctified in the future (probably at your death).


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## Larry Hughes

Fred & Pastorway/Phillip,

Voices of biblical reason and clarity - thanks!!


L


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## Larry Hughes

This is complete confusion of both the CoW and the CoG, not to mention Law and Gospel so as to mean nothing.



> To say Jesus fulfills your responsibility to the law as a believer is completely true (but there is more beyond this statement). In essence, its a partial truth.



First of all there is no such thing as a "œpartial truth" - excluded middle. Jesus fulfilled ALL righteousness for the believer thus he/she may rest. That means when Christ was tempted in the wilderness and over came Satan, THIS is imputed to the believer. When Christ lived perfectly in all obedience thought, word and deed from the heart flawlessly THIS IS imputed to the believer. The believer lives IN this objective reality that on account of Christ. AND THIS cheers the heart and engenders the fruits of the Spirit - Love, Peace, Joy, etc"¦ For what else can engender Love for neighbor but knowing I don´t have to vainly attempt to please God by outward show of the Law which is selfish and against the Law in the first place. What else may engender true Peace with God but that "œhaving been (completely and finally) justified by faith we have peace with God. What else can bring infinite Joy but to know that God is no longer for the sake of His holy, innocent, suffering Son angry with me. To my conscience having been bathed in Christ´s blood I don´t have to fulfill the dead letter of the law in order to "œplease God" or be assured or seek further reward (which is truly selfish and again against the perfect Law which is altruistic and divested entirely of self). This being true by faith God is pleased and NOW I may serve my neighbor ever so flawed that I will in ALL my holy callings of life be it a calling as geologist, lawyer, pastor, mother, father, son, daughter, husband, wife, US citizen, McDonald´s worker, etc"¦ ALL are holy callings and by faith please God for the one doing these IS resting completely in Christ alone God´s true Son in alone He is well pleased.



> You have a responsibility in the New Covenant simply because you are involved (as a member of the two parties in agreement).



The CoG is pure grant, pure grace, the oath was sworn by God to keep and He kept it and evidenced it by placarding before our eyes Christ crucified and risen. Thus, it is often stated as Promise.



> Your responsibility is simply obedience to the law. Although you can not obey the law as unregenerate, you can (and are expected to) as a partaker of the New Covenant.



"œSimply obedience to the law", by this statement alone one shows that one does not even understand the Law of God let alone be able to make such a brash statement. Neither can one do so regenerate. For the Law ALWAYS demands perfect obedience and not one bit less, THIS, the Law, NEVER changes regenerate or unregenerate. There is not "œa Law"œ for the regenerate and "œa Law"œ for the unregenerate. The Law is the Law and the same always. Summed up in the two Great Commandments: perfect in thought, word and deed - past, present and future - selflessly and utterly altruistically, without fear of punishment (selfish) or hope of reward (selfish). The Law = Love and Love = Law. This was John Wesley´s error. The whole point of Paul setting up the dichotomy between works and grace is, well, to set forth the dichotomy.



> There is provision for your sin when you choose to do your will as opposed to the Spirit's leadership. Perfect obedience is the ultimate goal (and you are involved with the process of sanctification). Your sin has been judged at the cross, but your obedience to the law will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat.



This is pure dispensationalist at its best. No man enters heaven except through Christ alone. All rewards will be shown to be God´s good grace operating within in spite of the believer´s self. Thus, they lay them down. God is not a respecter of ANY man´s works in and of themselves pre or post conversion for even the "œbest" of the best saints works are still by themselves filthy rags before God and even these need the blood of Christ to be accepted. Faith is always highest, once one raises works by emphasis or otherwise one proves that one is trying to work one´s way to heaven - EVEN if they outwardly with their mouths affirm "œjustification by faith alone" they are FUNCTIONALLY, effectively living by works and show forth no difference than a Roman Catholic, Pharisee or Pagan for that matter.

If you throw out the law and believe Christ will take care of all "œyour righteousness" then you may be surprised when you finally get to the throne. You have an active role and responsibility towards your sanctification.... its called obedience to the law (nothing more).

Ultimately you will be fully sanctified before His presence. You were sanctified from before the foundation, you are currently being sanctified (via the Spirit, the law and your will) and you will be fully sanctified in the future (probably at your death). 

Larry


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## Texas Aggie

Thanks for your reply Larry.

I see that there are "œtwo righteousness" mentioned in the scripture. "Your righteousness" and "His righteousness." Before regeneration "your righteousness" is as filthy rags, after regeneration, you have His imputed righteousness as well as a righteousness that is expected of you (hence "œyour" righteousness). Your righteousness is simply an expectation of the Kingdom (it sets you apart from the rest of the world).

The scribes and the Pharisees had a "visible righteousness." Christ Himself informed us of that. The outside of the cup was clean (they had an external righteousness) yet the inside was dirty (spiritually unclean). They lacked the righteousness that could only be given to them by God.

The imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ is something you absolutely can not attain on your own via obedience to the law (this must be provided to you by God). Faith alone is your ticket to heaven and "your faith" is also a gift of God that you can not conjure on your own. Imputed faith and righteousness is provided to you. This is the righteousness that you now have that "exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees." This is your "justification."

"Your righteousness" is attained by walking after the Spirit (also provided to you by God). As a partaker of the New Covenant, you have the law and the Spirit. Your "will" however is involved in the process (you can choose to shun the leadership of the Spirit). Or...., you can be a friend of God and walk with Him as Enoch and Noah. Walking with God is walking after the Spirit. This is part of your sanctification and you are involved.

No man enters through heaven except Christ alone (He provides both your justification and sanctification). I have no disagreement with that because it is true. Not sure how you think I believe otherwise. Not sure how you think I am saying you get to heaven via works.... please explain.

All I am saying is that you have a responsibility in the New Covenant regarding the process of your sanctification while here on earth (there is nothing you can do for your justification and you will be fully sanctified via Christ before you stand in God´s presence).

While in this world, you have a responsibility to guard your gates from the unholy as well as follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not lead you to do anything contrary to the law. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for believers to understand.

I never said your works will get you to heaven (this is not scriptural). Post regeneration, your works are just an expectation of the King of the Kingdom. Your "works" involve only one thing.... obedience to His law. There is a reason why God has given you His law and His Spirit as a partaker of the New Covenant.

God most definitely respects men's works after regeneration... because this is the only expectation He has of His people. Obedience to Him has always been His requirement.

Continue in sin and justify your sin as much as you like. I am not your judge.


[Edited on 8-17-2005 by Texas Aggie]


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## kceaster

I agree with Pastor Phillip. I think it is not helpful, nor is it healthy to separate the law in regard to justification. I think it leads us to the mindset of what we can and cannot obey, as if to say, the ceremonial being abolished, I no longer have to worry about obeying that part. We should never think this way because it leads us to believe that we can actually obey part of God's law to His satisfaction. If that were true, then we could justify ourselves.

But it isn't true. Take the whole of our obedience and it is still not in compliance with God's truth, because we still sin. What is sin? Sin is ANY want of conformity unto or transgression of the LAW of God.

Truly, we don't have to sacrifice anymore, nor burn incense, nor bring offerings to be burnt. But in spurning Christ in our daily lives, which we all do, we transgress these same truths that Christ represents. For instance, the prayers of the saints are the incense before the throne of God. Do we pray as we ought? How does this sin compare to the use of incense in the OT? When we are stingy when we should be generous, how is this sin any different than not bringing our burnt offerings? When we look to other means of salvation, how does this not sin in providing an imperfect sacrifice?

Bring it closer to home: the civil use of the law. When we disobey the civil law, we disobey God. When we obey the civil law, we do so as imperfect beings, for we cannot obey the whole civil law perfectly.

The moral law: no one can perfectly obey the moral law.

When we realize that law is tied to our standing before God, we must realize also that there is no law God made, which we can perfectly fulfill. Therefore, the whole law, just as the Trinity is, cannot be separated when it comes to being justified before a holy God.

We are condemned already. There is no point in our lives here on earth that God could not point to and show us our guilt. Thankfully, justification is about pointing to Christ instead of pointing to ourselves. God does not look at us as sinful creatures who have transgressed the law, but looks at us as being pardoned and righteous towards the law, only by faith in Christ and His merits.

So, rather than coming up with divisions or categories of what we can obey, we should see the whole law as being our judge and admit that we can do nothing, save through Christ and the merits of His grace.

Practically speaking, I think Paul would tell us that the ceremonies are done, they are not for the believer. But that should never mean that in Christ, we do not do as He did regarding those ceremonies, IN THE SPIRIT of those laws, not in the letter. I believe that this is why He has instituted the worship we practice, and the ordinances of the church. When we are obedient in them, we are obedient to the spirit of the OT ceremonial laws. But even in our obedience we must always see Christ first, and not ourselves. When we obey the jot and tittle we should see Christ as doing it for us, for surely without His Holy Spirit, we would not even think of obeying.

After all, when we do obey, we are nothing more than unprofitable servants.

The law is a whole, and the whole law teaches us to trust on Christ for our salvation.

In Christ,

KC


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## Larry Hughes

> Continue in sin and justify your sin as much as you like. I am not your judge.



This is quite a false accusation against me since I'm not saying that at all nor have I! NOT once have I said that. And that makes it a double slanderous false accusation. If not bring forth this knowledge of some licentious sin I'm trying to personally justify. And since you don't personally know me anyway! Thus, it is pure slander. Am I a justified sinner, yes, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner", is my prayer every day. I'm not sinless, oh no. But I'm not trying to justify ANY sin either. Am I trying to "justify" some sinful licentious life, NO! So, before you level slander you should THINK about it first.

But you do bless me anyway for this is EXACTLY the same accusation leveled at the Apostle Paul in the form of, "Shall we sin that Grace may abound". That question assumes a false accusation against the true Gospel. It typically proves as M. Loyd Jones once said that the Gospel was truly given by those who react against it and in some form similar to Paul's the query is made this way.

It is an issue of what empowers sanctification. The raw precept can never do so for the precept, Law, requires the heart AND it is not just enough to internally fight with one's self. The Gospel gives the power to "not sin". The Law is good and holy, nothing wrong with the Law at all, the problem is in sinful men, thus the Gospel is ALWAYS necessary.

One of the best definitions of pietism I"ve ever read was posted by a guy I read once named Eric Phillips. He really hit the nail on the head I think because in consideration of holy living and the Christian life, as to when this ends up denying Christ though it appears to have wisdom is a matter of emphasis and main focus. Take note of what is exposited in the first part because that is the trickness of "works righteousness", not that it is alway so gross and outward as in Rome or the Pharisees:

The Definition: 


"Pietism is making our love for God the main focus of Christianity, instead of His love for us. 

Exposition:

It (pietism -ldh) doesn't say, "Never mind God's love," of course, nor does it deny that "We love Him because He first loved us." It's a matter of <focus>, of <emphasis>. It says rather, "Yes, yes, of course God loves you. That's a given. But do YOU love HIM?" It views salvation as the spark that starts the Christian eruption, the pot in which the Christian is planted so that he might start growing--but not as the continuing focus of the Christian life. It (salvation/justification/Gospel -ldh) becomes something too basic to think about, something assumed, and all the energy of the Christian life comes to be focused on growing, on perfecting ourselves, on showing God how grateful we are--and inevitably, on keeping up spiritually with the Joneses.

The insidious thing, of course, is that Christian growth is good. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed." BUT when we make "œprogress" and "œtriumph" in the Christian life our main goals, and treat the Gospel as nothing more than something we needed back at the beginning to get us launched on the Christian adventure (even if we would never "œsay" such a thing!), we unavoidably start approaching Christian growth as something we do for God--with His help of course!--instead of something that He does for us.
And then you get "œThe Purpose-Driven Life", a book that mentions salvation in one or two chapters, but whose whole purpose is to psyche you up to get out there and live triumphantly! It's no coincidence that Rick Warren explicitly says in that book that sanctification is a 50/50 proposition: us and God working together, with God willing to match us dollar-for-dollar, so to speak--to keep putting gas in the tank as long as we keep it floored.

And along with this Pietistic emphasis comes, often, a cavalier carelessness about doctrine. Christianity is about DOING, about GROWING! If you've believed on Christ at some point, you already have the faith-content part down, so what use could there be to debating Soteriology? Or understanding the Sacraments? What you lack is perfection! Get out there and start perfecting!

But Pietism isn't always careless about doctrine. Historically, the word "Pietism" refers to the kind that denigrates doctrine in favor of devotion, but contemporary Pietists quite often feel the need to learn this or that "secret of Christian living"--some new illuminating interpretation, or prayer of special value, that will help them live triumphantly (think: The Prayer of Jabez). And some people who are the most dismissive of "Pietists," and the most maniacal about understanding all doctrine just perfectly, are actually approaching Christianity in a very Pietistic way for all that, because all their focus is on perfecting their own knowledge, on making themselves more acceptable to God intellectually.

Conclusion: 

Christianity is about sin and redemption. It's about death and new life. It's about Good Friday and Easter. It's the news that Christ has died for us that we might live in Him. That's the essence. You can grow in Christianity, but you won't grow by leaving these things behind and going on to more advanced or more "spiritual" things. Nothing is more advanced or spiritual than that. The meat that St. Paul exhorts us to seek, leaving the milk behind, isn't something different than what came before, BUT a deeper understanding of the same thing, and of its implications for our lives. We grow by returning always to the center, owning ourselves sinners, and gratefully receiving Christ's incredible pardon. Sanctification isn't our project. He changes us. That doesn't mean we should spurn opportunities to serve and witness, or eschew spiritual disciplines. It means, rather, that we should regard all such things as medicine for our own sick souls, not as training programs designed to make us SuperChristians--or worse, forums in which to prove that we are SuperChristians already. If you're confronting your sinfulness and receiving Christ's forgiveness on a regular basis, always revisiting the Gospel, keeping THAT as your focus, it's really hard to start thinking of yourself as SuperChristian material."


So far from justifying "my sin" as you so slanderously state, I'm trying to give the fuel, the Gospel, so men, including myself will NOT sin and that is Christ AS Christ - the Gospel.

Simul Justus Et Pecator,

Larry

[Edited on 8-17-2005 by Larry Hughes]


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## Texas Aggie

You can obey the law perfectly as a regenerated man via the provisions of the New Covenant. Obedience to the law is now an exercise of your will. Before regeneration, your will was aligned with the will of your father who is the devil. Now your heart has been circumcised to conform to the will of God.

The New Covenant provides you with the equipment to obey the law perfectly, because God indwelling is absolutely perfect. You make the choice to be out of the way. You make the choice to be conformed to the world. You make the conscious choice to willfully disobey the law of God written in your heart and in your mind. You squelch His Spirit within.

The ceremonial law (in terms of animal sacrifices as well as the priesthood) has been changed via the satisfaction of Christ's atonement. There is still profound spiritual significance to both under the New Covenant. In addition, I can not find where His Holy Days and Sabbaths have been done away with (this is also part of His ceremonial law).

In addition, you as a law abiding Christian in the United States can not uphold the civil judgments of God against fellow citizens because you are not placed in a position of authority by God to execute such judgments. Our nation as a whole will suffer the consequences of throwing out His judgments (this is a curse of national disobedience).

There is no separation of law in terms of justification. Christ obeyed the law (moral, ceremonial and judgments) perfectly.... this is what made His sacrifice acceptable to God. This is what provides your imputed righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees.

As a partaker of the New Covenant you can obey His law perfectly to His satisfaction. How?.... by following the guidance of His Spirit indwelling within you. Keep your eyes focused on Jesus Christ and do not deviate from the path of righteousness. You submit to the will of God to do His will, not yours. You obey the law and the Spirit within you.

You can not justify yourself by any means. Before God has initiated the New Covenant to you, you are completely incapable of justifying yourself. After regeneration, there is no further justification. 

Prior to regeneration, you can not and you will not come to Jesus Christ. You can not and you will not obey the law of God. At regeneration, God imputes the righteousness of Jesus Christ upon the believer, He gives a new heart and writes His law in their heart and in their mind. He gives His Spirit so that the believer now has the means and the way to be in perfect obedience to the will of the Father.

Are we now fully sanctified before the Lord? I say no, because you are not in the presence of God Himself. Yes, we as Christians make a choice to sin and there is provision to cleanse us from our sin. God is after a people who have a heart to know Him and obey all His commandments.

Now, if your child were in jail downtown because he had broken the law of the authority and you as the father provided the judge a means for his release, what is your child free to do? Shall he go right back into sin? Absolutely not.

Your child is free to do only one thing. He is now free to do the will of his father (obey the law of the lawgiver). For the believer in Christ, if you do not obey the law of our Authority (the Lawgiver), then He will execute righteous judgment on you. He may not kill you, He probably will not send you to hell, but you will learn what chastening is. If you think that His love will not chasten you, even if it kills you, then you are not versed in His word and believing a lie. You are free from the Law of Sin and Death to live the Law of God through the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ that leads you into an eternal presence and rest with God.

It is rather interesting to see why this eternal decree has taken place and it is given to us in Romans Chapter 8. "œFor what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

This is precisely why He brought you out of your bondage to sin, your jail, Egypt and the world so you could walk not after the flesh, but after His Spirit. You are out of jail so the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in you. And you may still ask what law is He talking about? Is it the law you yourself establish? Is it the law somebody else makes up? No"¦ it is the law of the Lawgiver and if you recall, this is a part of the New Covenant which involves writing the law in your heart and in your mind.

For a believer, the law is going to be extremely hard to get away from if not impossible because God has written His law in our hearts and in our mind. If you do not have this law written inside of your heart and mind, then you are not under the New Covenant and you have no assurance of salvation because of your love of sin. Where there is no covenant, there is no salvation.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> You can obey the law perfectly as a regenerated man via the provisions of the New Covenant. Obedience to the law is now an exercise of your will.
> 
> The New Covenant provides you with the equipment to obey the law perfectly, because God indwelling is absolutely perfect.



These two statements are perfectionism, and unbiblical, as well as blatently unConfessional.



> WLC 149 Is any man able perfectly to keep the commandments of God? A. *No man is able, either of himself, or by any grace received in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God*; but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed.





> WCF 19:6 Although *true believers* be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use *to them, as well as to others*; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; *discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives*; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin; together with a *clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience*.





> WLC 77 Wherein do justification and sanctification differ? A. Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification, yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ, in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof; in the former, sin is pardoned; *in the other, it is subdued*: the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation; the other is neither equal in all, nor in all, *nor in this life perfect in any*, but growing up to perfection.





> WCF 9.4 When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, *by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil*.





> WCF 9.5 The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.





> WCF 13:3 In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail, yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.





> WCF 19:6 Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; *discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives*; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin; together with a *clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience*. It is likewise of use to regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man's doing good, and refraining from evil because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.



There is a massive and fundamental difference between perfection and a rule of life.


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## Texas Aggie

No false accusation Larry. Let me quote you:

"To my conscience having been bathed in Christ´s blood I don´t have to fulfill the dead letter of the law in order to "œplease God" or be assured or seek further reward (which is truly selfish and again against the perfect Law which is altruistic and divested entirely of self)."

Obedience to His law is His expectation for those chosen in Christ from before the foundation and made a partaker of His covenant. Any means to abrogate His expectation is a justification for one's self will.

I do not know you nor can I see your heart. I did not accuse you of being a sinning believer. I just notice, how you may justify such behavior.

Believe what you wish my friend.


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## Texas Aggie

Fred,

Technically you can obey the law perfectly. But like I said, your "will" is exercised and you are a man (not God).

The New Covenant does provide you with the means to obey the law perfectly. Does a partaker not have the Spirit which is absolutely perfect. Is the law not absolutely perfect?

Thanks for the WCF examples; however, they all support what I am saying. Only Christ is perfect in obedience because He is God. Man is a fallen creature and not perfect.

After regeneration, our "will" is still present and we choose to sin (just as Adam willfully chose to disobey the law). We still choose to disregard the law and the Spirit. The hatred of sin is part of one's growing in spiritual maturity (providing they are being directed and taught by the Spirit).

We are to be brought up to perfection (growing in perfection). I see no perfection until we are at the throne (then we are perfect). But to say we have no responsibility for obedience is ludicrous. We have a responsibility to be diligent against sin and the world. We are to be separated.

When we relegate all our obedience to Christ, we tend not to pay attention to what God expects of us. His law is still binding upon us. Although the demand of the law which requires your eternal death has been paid, the demand for your obedience to the law has not been nullified.


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## turmeric

There are many kinds of perfectionism around. I don't think anyone is accusing anyone else of believing in Entire Perfectionism (a la Wesley) in this life but there is another doctrine which teaches moment-by-moment perfection. This teaching is very common and takes many forms, it originated in 19th Century Revivalism but has travelled far since then.
The worst part about it is that it BLINDS US TO OUR SIN by making sin seem more about actions & thoughts than about what we are after the Fall. Regeneration, In my humble opinion, makes it possible to struggle against sin, I don't really think the unregenerate struggle with it as we do, but regeneration doesn't give us the power "not to sin" but to resist it. There is sin in everything we do. Now because of the new creation, there is also a little real righteousness in it as well.


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## Larry Hughes

Matt,

I was not justifying sin. One struggle that appears that you are having is seeing sin as only open sin and not seeing that all apart from faith is sin. Do you not understand that the Law to be obeyed at all requires perfection. There is no such thing as "sort of obeying the Law". And do you not see whether in the 10 Commandments or the GC (Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, mind and soul AND love of neighbor as self) is purely altruistic. That means it matters not one wit what you do externally in obedience it is the heart that matters. 

Are you saying to me that YOU have at least once obeyed the Law without ANY self interest? Is that what you are saying.

What do you mean when you say "technically you can obey the Law perfectly"? "Technically", is that what Christ said when He said, "you must be perfect..."

Don't you see that those resting and at peace with God through Christ alone for having born our sins and giving us ALL required righteousness ARE the ones that make the beginnings, yet faultering much, in true obedience - not to the dead letter but the Spirit. Why? Because they need not worry about themselves before God because Christ has taken care of all, it is finished. Not worrying such, then and only then can one even begin to love neighbor as one's self, alturistically.

Do you not see that when you are "obeying the Law" as a sinner, yes a regenerate sinner, in order to gain God's favor and dreaming to please Him with yourself and yourselves doing you are violating the Law. You may outwardly willfully act and do the letter of Law, but you are doing it for your own falsely dreamed up gain and not altruistically toward another. Which is the whole Law, utter charity and complete selflessness.

E.g., You may for years take care of an elderly sick person, keep their house, mow their lawn, etc...And you may in a sense willingly do so. On the last day of their life, their death bed they laud over you and say, "You have been so kind to me, you are a saint." Then if you were to honestly reply, "I did it to gain the favor of God and reward for myself." There it all goes out the window and you have not in the least obeyed the Law let alone perfectly.

E.g., #2: Here's a test we could all take: There are two boys one an unbeliever the other a believer. They have a mutual neighbor who is elderly and sick. The unbeliever every single day takes care of the elderly gentleman's lawn, shops for food for him, cares for his house. The believer will not even mow his own father's yard without being threatened with grounding and at that begrudgingly. Question: Who's work is accepted in the eyes of God? Answer: The believer's. Does this bother you? If so, then you are stumbling over the stumbling stone.

The Law for the believer becomes content, but the Gospel remains the power. The believer remains in this tension of sinful yet justified and battles much, thus when the Law thunders again he/she flees back to the Cross where power is and grace always remains.

Larry


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Fred,
> 
> Technically you can obey the law perfectly. But like I said, your "will" is exercised and you are a man (not God).



Actually, technically you cannot obey the law perfectly. Because of the presence of remaining sin, it is impossible to obey prefectly this side of glory. The Confession is VERY clear about that.




> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_The New Covenant does provide you with the means to obey the law perfectly. Does a partaker not have the Spirit which is absolutely perfect. Is the law not absolutely perfect?



Partaking of the Spirit is not the same as perfect obedience. That is the point of Romans 7:



> Romans 7:12-25 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.



The Spirit perfectly brings to our mind our inablilty to obey, and as regenerate we are pricked by that, and desire further sanctification. The unbeliever is not.



> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Thanks for the WCF examples; however, they all support what I am saying. Only Christ is perfect in obedience because He is God. Man is a fallen creature and not perfect.
> 
> After regeneration, our "will" is still present and we choose to sin (just as Adam willfully chose to disobey the law). We still choose to disregard the law and the Spirit. The hatred of sin is part of one's growing in spiritual maturity (providing they are being directed and taught by the Spirit).



But the WCF does not say what you were saying. I think I understand better (and agree with) your paragraph above, but not:



> You can obey the law perfectly as a regenerated man via the provisions of the New Covenant. Obedience to the law is now an exercise of your will.
> 
> The New Covenant provides you with the equipment to obey the law perfectly, because God indwelling is absolutely perfect.



I have said many, many times that precision is essential in theology. Your two statements above are false and have never been espoused by the most ardent defenders of the 3rd use of the law. Warfield is a prime example of this.



> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> We are to be brought up to perfection (growing in perfection). I see no perfection until we are at the throne (then we are perfect). But to say we have no responsibility for obedience is ludicrous. We have a responsibility to be diligent against sin and the world. We are to be separated.
> 
> When we relegate all our obedience to Christ, we tend not to pay attention to what God expects of us. His law is still binding upon us. Although the demand of the law which requires your eternal death has been paid, the demand for your obedience to the law has not been nullified.



Again, precision, precision. We absolutely have to obey God. The WCF clearly states that the moral law is binding on the Christian. The problem is when you use terms like "required" and "requirement" and (I believe) even a reference to final justification. These are statements that have no place with the gospel. Obedience is a necessary consequence and evidence of justification, not a requirement.

I am not arguing for a lower standard of the law. If you doubt me - listen to a few of my sermons on 1 Peter, including one on The Call to Holiness (http://www.tulipfaith.com/sermons/1Peter/Fred Greco - 06 - The Call To Holiness.mp3)

But we have to be exceedingly careful how we describe the law, especially since the error of Shepherdism is rampant.

Please continue to hold up the importance of the law. But be careful when you do.

[Edited on 8/17/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## Texas Aggie

Thanks for all the info guys (Larry, Fred & Meg). I appreciate your time and responses concerning this issue. The way I see (understand) this is:

Man is the only imperfect element of the parties involved in the New Covenant. All God's provisions under the terms of the New Covenant are absolutely perfect in design and application; therefore, the terms allow for absolute perfection. The initiator of the covenant is perfect as well as the provisions He has made for man.

A regenerated man sins against God as a matter of choice, not because he lacks the provision of God's perfect redemption. The mere fact that man is involved shows imperfection (towards sanctification) in this world. You are yet to be fully sanctified before God. Man is yet to be fully sanctified; this is why there is no perfection on "this side of Glory." I stated much earlier that this would occur probably at one's death.

The demand for obedience to the law still remains.... and yes, God expects perfect obedience from His creation. Perfect obedience to the law has always been His desire. Absolute obedience is the requirement because God is absolute. Fortunately, He has made provision for our transgression (both pre and post regenerate). This was a decree by God from before the foundation.

"You must be perfect" is a commandment just as any other. This is part of your separation from the world. I do not classify the regenerate as sinners. A regenerated person is just what the word means... one is regenerated from one state to another.

You are now a new creature in Christ, not a sinner. You may war with the flesh and temptation, but you are not a perpetual sinner (if so, this is a false witness).

It is better to place the blame on self as opposed to your nature (especially since we have a new nature). It is more appropriate to say "I sinned because I chose to do so despite the law and the Spirit." Own up to your infraction and don't pass the buck as Adam tried to.

It is not a dream to please God by obedience to His law (this is merely an expectation of His Kingdom). His law establishes specific demands on partakers of His covenant (i.e. thou shalt not commit adultery).

His law, because it is provided to the believer in conjunction with His covenant, involves a promise to the party who enters into His eternal provision. The promise is always initiated by the covenant giver (who is God) and calls for two conditional results: God´s blessings and His cursings. The condition of the covenant is simply obedience. Obedience to the law is His will for His elect.

Now, you have a choice, based on the condition of obedience, to determine the outcome of your daily life. I'm not talking about your justification, I'm talking about your walk with the Spirit. You will either be cursed or blessed. You will either be chastened or live a life of rest and peace according to the law and the Spirit. The demand for obedience to the law still remains a condition of the covenant. The choice is yours.

Obedience to the law is not a matter of pleasing God for myself (or my own edification). Obedience to the law is a matter of pleasing God for Himself because it is an expectation of all His creation. You ask who's work is acceptable to God?.... God can only provide the means for that which satisfies Himself (in this case, the righteousness of Christ). But again, there is more. He has also provided the way for His people to obey His law. God does not nullify His law or demand for perfect obedience from His creation.

Never said partaking of the Spirit equates to perfect obedience.... again man is involved along with his "will." The Spirit provides direction for the believer and the Spirit will not lead to anything contrary to the law. Man chooses to disregard the Spirit and the Spirit will allow the infraction. The Spirit brings to your mind the ability to obey, not the idea that you can not obey and it is OK to sin (this is not of God). The Spirit even gives you a way out or means to resist the temptation. You ultimately choose to disobey saying "I'm gonna do my way, not yours God." This is how you are involved in the New Covenant.

Law and Grace are not opposed to one another. There is absolutely nothing fearful of God's law. Under grace, the life of the believer has been satisfied via Christ and the demand for your eternal death has been paid. The demand for your obedience is simply an expectation of the Lawgiver.


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## Larry Hughes

Matt,

Thanks for your kind closing words. Forgive me if I misunderstood you.

Your Brother In Christ,

Larry


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## fredtgreco

This is why the board is good. Theology is hard - we want to protect grace, yet affirm the importance of the law. It is hard to keep that tension in balance, but it is Biblical.


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## Texas Aggie

Thanks guys... I love this site and have learned so much from all the posts. Will be back in a few days (going on a shot trip).

Take care.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Thanks guys... I love this site and have learned so much from all the posts. Will be back in a few days (going on a shot trip).
> 
> Take care.



Have a good trip, Matt.

I'm sorry that I was a bit flippant in my early post in this thread. It was a good discussion.


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