# Infant Salvation



## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Ch. 10.3 of the Confession rightly indicates that infants may be saved: &quot;Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.&quot;

This is easily supported with the example of John the Baptist who had the Holy Spirit from the womb (indicating salvation) and who, while in his mother's womb, leaped for joy at being in the presence of Jesus in Mary's womb (again evidencing salvation even in the womb). Of course, there are other examples.

Below is a quote from John Frame, which I think is insightful. With respect to infants who are saved, it addresses how much understanding they must have.

&quot;But of course believers vary in their knowledge of the Word of God. Our understandings of it always contain some degree of error, and we never reach an exhaustive knowledge of everything in Scripture (together, of course, with its proper implications and applications).12Therefore there is some change, some development in our appropriation and use of our presupposition.&quot; 

&quot;Since I believe that infants can be regenerate, I hold that it is possible to belong to Christ without having any formulated presupposition at all. But those who belong to Jesus always have at least a disposition to serve him, a disposition which becomes a growing obedience as they mature in Christ. As they learn to use words and concepts, they learn to obey his Words, written and preached. As they learn more and more of his Words, and gain more and more certainty about the applications of those Words, they are able to obey more and more of them. And obeying involves presupposing; for one thing God commands is for us to give his Words priority above all others.&quot;

A question. How would you respond to an assertion that adults who have not heard the gospel can be regenerate and dispositionally inclined toward God even though they have not received the gospel? 

Scott


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2004)

They cannot be inclined toward God in a saving capacity without receiving the gospel. Hence Frame's statement, &quot;a disposition which becomes a growing obedience.&quot; They have matured to understand language, and have no doubt embraced many presuppositions that form a complex world-view, by which they know what they ought to do, and deny occasionally or often in ther practical behavior. This, and in Romans 1, where St. Paul speaks of the Ethics of the Gentiles, is enough to condemn them.


[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Visigoth]


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Wouldn't this set up a somewhat strange situation in which infants and adult incompetents who have never heard the gospel could be saved but ordinary adults who have never heard the gospel cannot? So, some remote tribe in Africa - some of the infants and incompetent adults could be saved but none of the ordinary people, at least until the gospel arrives?

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

Scott


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

Yep. Contrary to what some have (and will... once they read this) it is just patently unjustified to take the example of john the Baptist and attempt to make it normative. It was miraculous at the time precisely because it ISN'T the normal way things work. It is one thing to say that something is possible... and another thing to say that it is normal or regularly occuring. 

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by SolaScriptura]


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2004)

One cannot say that infant salvation is NOT normative simply because one special instance is noted in Scripture for us either.

The text does not treat is as a miracle either. Babies move around and kick and jump in the womb all through pregnancy. (Having been through it four times with my wife I know this to be a fact.)


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 15, 2004)

As is always the case, your view of the covenant will color your idea of how normative infant regeneration really is. There is not enough data in Scripture to make a case one way or the other. But the fact that examples exist of infants being regenerate should at least open our minds to the idea that infant regeneration can be more normative than the couple of instances mentioned in Scripture. I don't think David's experience is necessarily in the line of a miraculous event, such as John the Baptist.


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## wsw201 (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:90c838391b][i:90c838391b]Originally posted by Scott[/i:90c838391b]
Wouldn't this set up a somewhat strange situation in which infants and adult incompetents who have never heard the gospel could be saved but ordinary adults who have never heard the gospel cannot? So, some remote tribe in Africa - some of the infants and incompetent adults could be saved but none of the ordinary people, at least until the gospel arrives?

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

Scott [/quote:90c838391b]

The section of the WCF that you have quoted from deals with Effectual Calling. Section 1 of Chapter 10 is as follows:

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]

[1] ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

[2] 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2CO 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[3] ROM 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). 2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

[4] ACT 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 1CO 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. EPH 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.

[5] EZE 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[6] EZE 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh. PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. DEU 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. EZE 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

[7] EPH 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[8] SON 1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee. PSA 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ROM 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The issue concerning infants and those who are incapable of being &quot;outwardly called&quot; are extra-ordinary circumstances. Note that the WCF uses the term &quot;elect&quot;. Since election happened before the foundations of the world were set, it would only make since that God would, in these two extra-ordinary circumstances, save His elect through extra-ordinary means.

Wayne


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:e10bb16c9f][i:e10bb16c9f]Originally posted by Visigoth[/i:e10bb16c9f]
One cannot say that infant salvation is NOT normative simply because one special instance is noted in Scripture for us either.

The text does not treat is as a miracle either. Babies move around and kick and jump in the womb all through pregnancy. (Having been through it four times with my wife I know this to be a fact.) [/quote:e10bb16c9f]

Do you actually READ the Bible? John the Baptist's birth certainly IS presented as unique and miraculous! READ Luke 1: 5-25, 40-45, 57-80... He is a prophetically significant character in salvation history and the unique circumstances surrounding his birth attest to that.

Also, given the repeated statements of Scripture calling for the need to repent, that grace comes through faith and that hearing is required for belief, that we are all by nature objects of wrath... it is entirely justified to understand that God's normative pattern is that those who don't repent and confess Christ are damned. Do I believe that God could break his normal pattern and replicate what he did with John the Baptist? Sure! And I also believe that he could enable you and me to teleport (like Philip...) 
The example of John the Baptist no more negates the general tenure of Scripture any more than Jesus walking on water negates the laws of buoyancy and gravity.


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Sola:

Ok, so what was the propositional content of the fetal John the Baptist's mind? Did he have formed propositions (&quot;I believe that Jesus is the Messiah&quot; ), a mere disposition like Frame discussed, or something else?

Scott

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott]

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott]

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott]


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:6396cac1e5][i:6396cac1e5]Originally posted by Scott[/i:6396cac1e5]
Sola:

Ok, so what was the propositional content of the fetal John the Baptist's mind? Did he have formed propositions (&quot;I believe that Jesus is the Messiah&quot; ), a mere disposition like Frame discussed, or something else?
[/quote:6396cac1e5]

Scott, how about we throw the doctrine of irresistible grace and the perseverance of the sains into the mix. All of God's elect will become regenerate, come to faith, and persist in that faith - like John the Baptist. If, at the end of a person's life, it is seen that they did not come to faith and persist in it, they are not elect. Thus - elect infants do not die in infancy, since God has chosen to bring them to a saving knowledge of Himself. John the Baptist did not need propositional content or concious faith before he could become regenerate, sinc Arminianism is false, and faith need not precede regeneration. But Note that since he was elect, John the Baptists did in fact come to faith.

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by TheonomyNZ]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:678b164af8][i:678b164af8]Originally posted by Scott[/i:678b164af8]
Sola:

Ok, so what was the propositional content of the fetal John the Baptist's mind? Did he have formed propositions (&quot;I believe that Jesus is the Messiah&quot; ), a mere disposition like Frame discussed, or something else?

Scott

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott]

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott]

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by Scott] [/quote:678b164af8]

Read my second paragraph...


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Sola:

Your second paragraph does not answer the question.

Scott


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Theonomy:

I don't think that works. John was indwelt with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. This is something only for people already in union with Christ. Further, while in the womb, John leapt for joy when encountering Jesus who was also still in Mary's womb. 

John was already in union with Christ, this was not some future event.

Scott

PS: I agree with the confession that some elect infants do die in infancy.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

It gives irrefutable evidence to the notion that something can be an exception to a rule without overthrowing the rule in general.

Only fools and heretics try to make an example of a miracle override repeated statements of scripture.

Remember: in hermeneutics, priority for establishing doctrine is given to didactic passages, not narratives... but that is a separate (though related ) issue.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 15, 2004)

What conclusions can we draw from the following Scriptures?

Psalm 22:9-10--
Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you I was cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Matthew 21:15-16--
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, &quot;Hosanna to the Son of David!&quot; they were indignant, and they said to him, &quot;Do you hear what these are saying?&quot; And Jesus said to them, &quot;Yes; have you never read, &quot;'Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?&quot; [Ps. 8:2]

And by the way, the WCF's assertion that &quot;all elects infants dying in infancy&quot; is one of the most ambiguous statements in the confession. Of course elect infants that die in infancy are going to heaven. That tells us nothing. The question is whose children are elect? 

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:c50eba02bb][i:c50eba02bb]Originally posted by Scott[/i:c50eba02bb]
Theonomy:

I don't think that works. John was indwelt with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. This is something only for people already in union with Christ....
John was already in union with Christ, this was not some future event.[/quote:c50eba02bb]

I never said it was a future event. He was already regenerate, I totally, completely agree. But notice - he did in fact come to faith. my contention is that all the elect come to faith and remain therein.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:235a4b01cc]
Do you actually READ the Bible? John the Baptist's birth certainly IS presented as unique and miraculous! READ Luke 1: 5-25, 40-45, 57-80... He is a prophetically significant character in salvation history and the unique circumstances surrounding his birth attest to that. [/quote:235a4b01cc]

I said kicking in the womb was not miraculous.

And, I believe, he was appointed to a certain office and work, but the fact tht he was filled with the spirit in utero is not unique to him.


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:9b5527044c][i:9b5527044c]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:9b5527044c]
What conclusions can we draw from the following Scriptures?

Psalm 22:9-10--
Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you I was cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.[/quote:9b5527044c]
I would suggest that it means that David has been dependent of God his whole life. As an infant, God watched over David. It looks ike this is the fairly universal stance of the commentators as well. Even Calvin did not make much of this verse, prefering to see it as a reference to a special care that God showed David, nuturing nd providing for him.

[quote:9b5527044c]Matthew 21:15-16--
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, &quot;Hosanna to the Son of David!&quot; they were indignant, and they said to him, &quot;Do you hear what these are saying?&quot; And Jesus said to them, &quot;Yes; have you never read, &quot;'Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?&quot; [Ps. 8:2][/quote:9b5527044c]

Calvin says on this Psalm, [quote:9b5527044c]The meaning, therefore, is, that God, in order to commend his providence, has no need of the powerful eloquence of rhetoricians,3 nor even of distinct and formed language, because the tongues of infants, although they do not as yet speak, are ready and eloquent enough to celebrate it. But it may be asked, In what sense does he speak of children as the proclaimers of the glory of God? In my judgment, those reason very foolishly who think that this is done when children begin to articulate, because then also the intellectual faculty of the soul shows itself. Granting that they are called babes, or infants, even until they arrive at their seventh year, how can such persons imagine that those who now speak distinctly are still hanging on the breast? Nor is there any more propriety in the opinion of those who say, that the words for babes and sucklings are here put allegorically for the faithful, who, being born again by the Spirit of God, no longer retain the old age of the flesh. What need, then, is there to wrest the words of David, when their true meaning is so clear and suitable? He says that babes and sucklings are advocates sufficiently powerful to vindicate the providence of God.[/quote:9b5527044c]

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by TheonomyNZ]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

TheonomyNZ... you are correct. It seems people often try to use the figures of speech in the Psalms to force them to mean more than they were intended. 
They are POEMS and SONGS and as such they use figures of speech...
Just like how I recently heard a country song in which the guy was singing about his beloved and how she can make a rose sprout from the frozen ground... Only a hermeneutic flunkie would take that literally.


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Not everything in a poem or song is figurative or allegorical (although the literary context should be kept in mind and should guide our understanding). In fact, most of the statements in most psalms are quite literal.

In any event, the psalm dovetails nicely with an express example contained in scripture, John the Baptist. The statement could be very literal about him and others like him.

Also, I am not sure if your earlier message was a response to my question, but it does not seem to address it. What was the propositional content of John the Baptist's mind while in the womb? How developed were his thoughts about Jesus?

Scott


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## Scott (Jan 15, 2004)

Luvr:

The statement is ambiguous, although it does acknowledge them. Here are two of the proof texts on which the Confession relies, which may provide some insight:

Luke 18:15-16. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 

Acts 2:38-39. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 15, 2004)

[quote:3708d4192e][i:3708d4192e]Originally posted by Scott[/i:3708d4192e]
Not everything in a poem or song is figurative or allegorical (although the literary context should be kept in mind and should guide our understanding). In fact, most of the statements in most psalms are quite literal.[/quote:3708d4192e]

I agree with this, actually. I just don't think it establishes much in the case of this psalm, as I indicated earlier.

[quote:3708d4192e]Also, I am not sure if your earlier message was a response to my question, but it does not seem to address it. What was the propositional content of John the Baptist's mind while in the womb? How developed were his thoughts about Jesus?[/quote:3708d4192e]

I know the question was for Sola, but I have addressed this on this thread. John the Baptist need not have had any propositional thoughts about Christ while in the womb (in fact it seems impossible that he did). In Calvinism, regeneraion precedes faith in the elect (otherwise faith would not be possible). What I have suggested is that since irresistible grace draws all the elect to faith, it appears that those who do not cme to faith were not elect - they were not appointed to believe in Christ.

Now, I might be wrong, granted. Maybe &quot;irresistible grace&quot; needs to be corrected and rejected. but even if that is so, I would agree with LOTW, that we could never really know whether or not an nfant who dies is elect or not, since by rejecting irresistible grace, we are left floating in an ocean of doubt concerning those who never believe - are they elect or not? We could not say.

Incidentally, Ron Nash wrote a book, [i:3708d4192e]When a baby Dies[/i:3708d4192e] in which he claimed that if an infant or unborn child dies, this is rrof the child [i:3708d4192e]is[/i:3708d4192e] elect!

No offence to anyone, but I think that Nash's position is an example of how presbyterian thought can be misused as a comforting tool. At the end of the day, let God be sovereign. He will draw whom he will to Himself, and he will leave in the lost estate of Adam whomever he decides to.

[Edited on 1-15-2004 by TheonomyNZ]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

Sorry... I guess I am thinking that your question is entirely improper given my 2nd paragraph. Here's why:
John the Baptist's experience is an exception to the normative pattern. This puts it in the same class (in my mind) as other miracles that "violate" the normal pattern. So, for example, to ask questions concerning the physics of how Jesus walked on water is almost nonsensical. Though our inquisitive minds might inquire as to HOW it happened, it has only been given to us to know THAT it happened. I sincerely believe that the same type of thing is found in the example of John the Baptist. Who knows "how" God regenerated him and gave him saving faith in the womb or of what type was that faith or how much did he know or when did he know it, etc...? Though some answers sound better than others, at the end of the day all answers are speculation. It wasn't given to us to know "how" it happened. All we have been shown is that it happened... 
It is the general rule that has been given to us as our standard to live, minister and die by.


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## Susan (Jan 15, 2004)

*Who is this about ?*

Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises [1] of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 "He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.

12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet [2]-
17 I can count all my bones-
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued [3] me from the horns of the wild oxen!

22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.

25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted [4] shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

Ultimately? 
Jesus.


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## Susan (Jan 15, 2004)

Don't you think that this is an example of David speaking as a prophet?


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 15, 2004)

Sure, possibly, probably.
This could be an example of David looking into the future...
More likely though, this psalm meant something to David personally... and as we see many times in the psalms (like Psalm 2) what is true of David figuratively is true of Christ LITERALLY. So I have no problem with saying that this psalm is a poetic reflection of David's own experience... just remember that it is poetry.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 15, 2004)

Guys,
The norm is as Sola has stated; Rom 10:17.

Regeneration is not the same as conversion. John was regenerated in the womb. He was converted under the Word.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 15, 2004)

The fact that Psalm 22 is a Messianic psalm means nothing unless you believe the Psalm doesn't apply at all to David. What exactly is David trying to say &quot;figuratively&quot; when he says that he was made to trust on his mother's breasts?


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

Craig- before I respond let me ask a clarifying question... Are you saying that for David's Psalm to be messianic it can't have any meaning for David personally (interpreted: it can't be reflective of his own experience)?
Or am I just not understanding you here?


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## Scott (Jan 16, 2004)

&quot;The fact that Psalm 22 is a Messianic psalm means nothing unless you believe the Psalm doesn't apply at all to David. What exactly is David trying to say &quot;figuratively&quot; when he says that he was made to trust on his mother's breasts?&quot;

What are you saying here - are you denying typology?

Scott


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## Scott (Jan 16, 2004)

For the record, I do not think it was the case John was somehow merely regenerated but unjustified in the womb. 

However, for those people who do believe that, do you believe that ordinary adults can be regenerated but unjustified (say the members of a tribe in Africa who have not yet encountered the gospel)?

Scott


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 16, 2004)

I do..............Do you think that regeneration and conversion are one &amp; the same?


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm saying that the fact that this Psalm is Messianic doesn't speak to this issue at all, that's all I'm saying, unless you deny that the Psalm is also talking about David himself, as well as a foreshadowing of Christ.

In other words, so what that it's Messianic?

[Edited on 1-16-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

You'd have to ask Susan since she brought it up.


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## Susan (Jan 16, 2004)

OK, glad to be of service.  I would say that it would be wrong to say that nothing in the Psalm applied to David, but it seems clear to me that it is a Psalm about Christ.

Here's Spurgeon's take on this Psalm. 

[quote:8ee1592366]SUBJECT. This is beyond all others THE PSALM OF THE CROSS. It may have been actually repeated word by word by our Lord when hanging on the tree; it would be too bold to say that it was so, but even a casual reader may see that it might have been. It begins with, &quot;My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?&quot; and ends, according to some, in the original with &quot;It is finished.&quot; For plaintive expressions uprising from unutterable depths of woe we may say of this psalm, &quot;there is none like it.&quot; It is the photograph of our Lord's saddest hours, the record of his dying words, the lachrymatory of his last tears, the memorial of his expiring joys. David and his afflictions may be here in a very modified sense, but, as the star is concealed by the light of the sun, he who sees Jesus will probably neither see nor care to see David. Before us we have a description both of the darkness and of the glory of the cross, the sufferings of Christ and the glory which shall follow. Oh for grace to draw near and see this great sight! We should read reverently, putting off our shoes from off our feet, as Moses did at the burning bush, for if there be holy ground anywhere in Scripture it is in this psalm.

DIVISION. From the commencement to the twenty-first verse is a most pitiful cry for help, and from verse 21 to 31 is a most precious foretaste of deliverance. The first division may be subdivided at the tenth verse, from verse 1 to 10 being an appeal based upon covenant relationship; and from verse 10 to 21 being an equally earnest plea derived from the imminence of his peril...
[/quote:8ee1592366]

I know that the Lord watches over all His children's ways, even from the womb long before we ever come to a saving faith. This must be balanced against the other verses showing that all Adam's children are born in sin and need salvation. In my humble opinion, it is a stretch to say that faith in an infant is a normative truth because of other Scriptures that teach otherwise.

[quote:8ee1592366]Genesis 6:5 
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.[/quote:8ee1592366] 


[quote:8ee1592366]Romans 3 v.9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."[/quote:8ee1592366]
No exception is made for Covenant children. Jesus said he came to save the &quot;lost sheep of Israel&quot;. Matthew 15 v. ." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." If they were born saved, there would have been no &quot;lost sheep&quot; to save.

Continuing with spurgeon:


> Verse 9. &quot;But thou art he that took me out of the womb.&quot; Kindly providence attends with the surgery of tenderness at every human birth; but the Son of Man, who was marvelously begotten of the Holy Ghost, was in an especial manner watched over by the Lord when brought forth by Mary. The destitute state of Joseph and Mary, far away from friends and home, led them to see the cherishing hand of God in the safe delivery of the mother, and the happy birth of the child; that Child now fighting the great battle of his life, uses the mercy of his nativity as an argument with God. Faith finds weapons everywhere. He who wills to believe shall never lack reasons for believing. &quot;Thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.&quot; Was our Lord so early a believer? Was he one of those babes and sucklings out of whose mouths strength is ordained? So it would seem; and if so, what a plea for help! Early piety gives peculiar comfort in our after trials, for surely he who loved us when we were children is too faithful to cast us off in our riper years. Some give the text the sense of &quot;gave me cause to trust, by keeping me safely,&quot; and assuredly there was a special providence which preserved our Lord's infant days from the fury of Herod, the dangers of travelling, and the ills of poverty.
> 
> Verse 10. &quot;I was cast upon thee from the womb.&quot; Into the Almighty arms he was first received, as into those of a loving parent. This is a sweet thought. God begins his care over us from the earliest hour. We are dandled upon the knee of mercy, and cherished in the lap of goodness; our cradle is canopied by divine love, and our first totterings are guided by his care. &quot;Thou art my God from my mother's belly.&quot; The psalm begins with &quot;My God, my God,&quot; and here, not only is the claim repeated, but its early date is urged. Oh noble perseverance of faith, thus to continue pleading with holy ingenuity of argument! Our birth was our weakest and most perilous period of existence; if we were then secured by Omnipotent tenderness, surely we have no cause to suspect that divine goodness will fail us now. He who was our God when we left our mother, will be with us till we return to mother earth, and will keep us from perishing in the belly of hell.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2004)

They were lost because they had forsaken the covenant.

Normatively, children of believers are the children of God,

Isa 59:21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 16, 2004)

Susan,

The theme of the judgment lawcase against the covenant breaking people of God is a huge theme overlooked by many today. John the Baptist prepares the way. The Johannine text tells us that he came from &quot;God&quot;. The literal meaning is that he came &quot;from the side of God&quot; as if he stood as a representative of the law court and was enacting a &quot;rib&quot; (Hebrew - &quot;reeb&quot;, not a rib like a rib in our bodies) a lawsuit against the covenant breakers. Thus, the covenant people were coming to be &quot;washed&quot; by him as those who needed to make amends when the Judge actually appears (that is Christ). Christ then comes to save the wayward people, the spiritual adulterers, who had forsaken the covenant, and who had been placed under the covenant judgment of God. John &quot;prepared the way&quot; making &quot;crooked paths straight and rough places plain&quot; (a reference to grading the streets when the dignitary came to town (something the people did with palm branches and their cloaks when Jesus came riding in on the donkey)). So hopefully more research will be sone ont he role of John and Christ in this respect, because it add alot to our understanding of God's &quot;judgment case&quot; against the wayward people. Then, Christ come sto the lost house of Israel to make amends for their covenant breaking (which was why they were in exile - scattered about) and why the restoration passage in Joel is used by Peter at pentecost as a first sermon text. it is fitting for Peter to announce the restoration.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

There is no contradiction in saying on the one hand that children can be believers from their birth, and on the other hand saying that all men are born in sin. This is because nobody is saying that infant children of believers are born with an innate capability to believe in and of themselves. Faith is the gift of God, is it not? He can give it to us whenever he chooses, even in infancy. My belief is that in the case of David, John the Baptist, and maybe even many, many other children, God gave them faith in their infancy. There is nothing in such a view that contradicts total depravity.

I am aware of what Spurgeon, Calvin, and many other commentators say about these verses. Though it is true that God providentially cares for his children, that doesn't take away the personal element that is present in the Psalm. It seems very obvious to me that David is saying more than simply, &quot;God was watching over me in my infancy&quot;.

[Edited on 1-16-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:ef6f4e4fca][i:ef6f4e4fca]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:ef6f4e4fca]
There is no contradiction in saying on the one hand that children can be believers from their birth, and on the other hand saying that all men are born in sin. This is because nobody is saying that infant children of believers are born with an innate capability to believe in and of themselves. Faith is the gift of God, is it not? He can give it to us whenever he chooses, even in infancy. My belief is that in the case of David, John the Baptist, and maybe even many, many other children, God gave them faith in their infancy. There is nothing in such a view that contradicts total depravity. [/quote:ef6f4e4fca]

There is when you make the unwarranted leap and say that John the Baptist's experience is normative.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

Why? Are you saying John the Baptist wasn't born in sin?

[Edited on 1-16-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

By the way... Psalm 22: 9-10 applies to David as literally as vv. 17-18 do.


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

I agree. What's your point?

By the way, its only an unwarranted leap in Baptist theology. In Presbyterian theology it isn't.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:1899267a7c][i:1899267a7c]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:1899267a7c]
I agree. What's your point?

By the way, its only an unwarranted leap in Baptist theology. In Presbyterian theology it isn't. [/quote:1899267a7c]

My point is that it is poetic hyperbole.

Your second sentence... hmmm... your comment is revealing about your position's dependency upon the express teaching of Scripture as to what is normative for members of the human race. (Unless you're positing that paedo theology is for some other species or race!)


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

Did you miss what I said about total depravity earlier? Why does anything I've said contradict total depravity or original sin?


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 16, 2004)

Ok, you're right... I missread your words.
Your view doesn't contradict total depravity. But IF there are these vast throngs of inants coming into the world that have faith from the womb then your view certainly does effectively diminish it to nothing more than a theoretical reality for a significant number of the worlds population.

[Edited on 1-16-2004 by SolaScriptura]


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:1fe3708523]
your view certainly does effectively diminish it to nothing more than a theoretical reality for a significant number of the worlds population.
[/quote:1fe3708523]

It's no more theoretical for regenerate, believing infants than it is for regenerate, believing 23-year-olds.


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:352decc1e8][i:352decc1e8]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:352decc1e8]
By the way, its only an unwarranted leap in Baptist theology. In Presbyterian theology it isn't. [/quote:352decc1e8]

I would want to correct that by saying that you probably (or should) have ARMINIAN Baptist theology in mind when you say that.

But even in presbyterian theoogy, it isn;t obvious that John the Baptist's case is normative, is it?


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:57c2380d5c][i:57c2380d5c]Originally posted by joshua[/i:57c2380d5c]
Is that you in your Avatar? Who is it? Just curious... [/quote:57c2380d5c]
Well, some people have avatars of famous Christian thinkers of the past. i simply chose one from the future.


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## JohnV (Jan 16, 2004)

TNZ:
[quote:3f989b0f0f]But even in presbyterian theoogy, it isn;t obvious that John the Baptist's case is normative, is it?[/quote:3f989b0f0f]
Why not? If Jesus refers to John as least in the kingdom of God (Matt. 11: 11 ) then why would not His electing purposes for each, no matter their calling vocationally, be the same, i.e, from the womb? This does not undermine the personal responsibility of each elect person, not even of John the Baptist, to be daily repentant, and daily seeking God. Personal repentance is still my daily obligation, even though I have been a Chrisitian a long, long time, just as much as one who comes to it the very first time.


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:4619fc1a5d][i:4619fc1a5d]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:4619fc1a5d]
TNZ:
[quote:4619fc1a5d]But even in presbyterian theoogy, it isn;t obvious that John the Baptist's case is normative, is it?[/quote:4619fc1a5d]
Why not?[/quote:4619fc1a5d]
Because it is bad hermeneutics to take a specific occurence in Scripture, and then move to the declaration that this occurence is normative for each of us.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that elect people are never regenerate in the womb. I'm just saying that we're not in a position to regard it as normative, just because it happened to John the Baptist.

The reality is, the question is not &quot;why not?&quot; The question is &quot;why?&quot; There is no obvious reason why John's experience must be a normative one.

[quote:4619fc1a5d]If Jesus refers to John as least in the kingdom of God (Matt. 11: 11 ) then why would not His electing purposes for each, no matter their calling vocationally, be the same, i.e, from the womb?[/quote:4619fc1a5d]

I see no reason to link John's being &quot;least&quot; in the kingdom of God with the point in his life at which he became regenerate. For example, a person who becomes regenerate at age 80 is greater than John according to these words fo Christ, so clearly being greater than John does not require that we are regenerate at the same point in life.

I say we must remain agnostic about [i:4619fc1a5d]when[/i:4619fc1a5d] an elect person is regenerate. All we must do is presume that our children are elect, and always teach them to fear the Lord and repent. The hidden things belong to the LORD.


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## JohnV (Jan 16, 2004)

TNZ:
Actually the questin to ask is &quot;Why not?&quot; since the idea of normativity is being addressed by you and other RB's. I'm referring to the burden of proof. But this is also a Red Herring by me, I know. So forget that part of it. 

[quote:e90a598324]I see no reason to link John's being &quot;least&quot; in the kingdom of God with the point in his life at which he became regenerate. For example, a person who becomes regenerate at age 80 is greater than John according to these words fo Christ, so clearly being greater than John does not require that we are regenerate at the same point in life. [/quote:e90a598324]
I guess we have a differece here of what that reference by Jesus means. It may not mean that John will have the lowest place inthe kingdom, but that in the eyes of the Jewish people one may prefer to be anyone else than John because of persecution he suffered for his puculiar ministry. 

But be that as it may, we cannot regard John's earthly ministry, as singular as it was, as being more deserving of his person than any occupation that we of God's people serve in daily life. Yes he was chosen for a very particular work, but his regeneration and election were as particular as any other's. And I take it that was Jesus' point. 

If I turn 80 before I turn and believe, I am not any the less destined from the womb as one who is born into the church; but one who is born into the church has a particular place as God's child in the visible church. That is taken for granted throughout the Old Testament, and also, therefore, throughout the New Testament. What needs to be found in the NT is a clear reference that God no longer deals in that way. For that way of dealing with His people is called &quot;Covenantal&quot;, and &quot;Covenantal&quot; is therefore inclusive of children in the congregation of His people, with the rights and privileges of that inclusion.

We have gone through all this before on this Board. I don't disrespect my Baptist brothers; in fact I defend them as fellows on this Board. We differ. But we do not question each other's commitment and faith. We allow each to state their beliefs forthrightly and sincerely, without taking offense at it. And that is as it should be.

That means that some of us do believe that the concept of Covenantal Theology must include the infants of believers. And we must have the right and obligation to say so plainly, without being taken as offending or bad-mouthing our brothers. That is what we believe. It must also be believed that we dearly love and value our brothers who differ, for they truly are valuable to us in that they offer us sincere critique of our view. 

But that pales in the face of all the good that is done together for the general good of the advancement of the gospel, which this Board also is very much a part of. You will find White equally receiving positive review along with Duncan; Spurgeon along with Warfield. 

This is just a reminder of all the work that has preceded this discussion in establishing a truly Christian relationship between differing parties, a marked characteristic of this Board. At least that is how I feel about it, and how I respect this discussion.

I guess this was uncalled for. I apologise; I guess I just felt in a &quot;rant&quot; mood. But it is not untoward, so I will post it. Thanks.


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 16, 2004)

[quote:aa2bd246ad][i:aa2bd246ad]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:aa2bd246ad]

If I turn 80 before I turn and believe, I am not any the less destined from the womb as one who is born into the church; but one who is born into the church has a particular place as God's child in the visible church. That is taken for granted throughout the Old Testament, and also, therefore, throughout the New Testament. What needs to be found in the NT is a clear reference that God no longer deals in that way.[/quote:aa2bd246ad]
Of course God still works that way. the question I'm addressing is not whether or not every elect person is ELECT while in the womb. The question I'm addresing is whether every elect person is REGENERATE in the womb. All I'm saying is we can't say they all are just because we know John was.

having said that, I am also not denying that some may be regenerate in the womb. As I said, our (covenantal!) obligation is to assume the election of our children and to trai them in the fear of the LORD. When regeneration takes place is a hidden thing belonging to the LORD, which He does when His good pleasure dictates. It may be in the womb, it may be after birth.


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## A.J.A. (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned Ezekiel 16:20-21.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 17, 2004)

oh boy.................:no:


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 18, 2004)

[quote:45d7b08e7d][i:45d7b08e7d]Originally posted by joshua[/i:45d7b08e7d]

Which is whom? [/quote:45d7b08e7d]I aologise for the undue subtlety. Yes, it is me.


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## Susan (Jan 18, 2004)

[quote:0fe47dbb28]I assumed so, but, we know what happens when one assumes... :tongue:[/quote:0fe47dbb28]
or PREsumes!


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## TheonomyNZ (Jan 18, 2004)

[quote:a311dd8403][i:a311dd8403]Originally posted by joshua[/i:a311dd8403]
I assumed so, but, we know what happens when one assumes... [/quote:a311dd8403]
Yes, they baptise their babies!  *runs for cover*


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## luvroftheWord (Jan 19, 2004)

*throws tomatoes*:saint:


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## Puritanhead (Dec 24, 2004)

Should the prophet Jeremiah's calling be equated with womb regeneration like that of John the Baptist? Can this be exegeted from the text if only implicitly.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

It follows from the decree of election that a truly called believer is inevitably going to be regenerated in accordance to God's perfect timing whether at 3 years of age or 30 years. Though, we should never confuse the new birth with the natural birth.

Calvin's treatise said covenant parents should rest in solace that children of believers in light of Scripture. John MacArthur has written a book on infant salvation called Safely in the Arms of God...

I often hear of infant innocence, and the elusive age of accountability, but does this harmonize with Scripture? The simplest evidence the infants are under the curse of sin is the fact that they face the consequences of sin... and they can die. I think after my mom had me, she probably doesn't think kids are so innocent. I imagine she thinks it is possible for even small children to goto hell. Anyway, I think it's to the glory of God to redeem the unborn victims of abortion and miscarriages as well as infants and toddlers.


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## Puritanhead (Dec 24, 2004)

We baptists believe infant regeneration occurs following infant dedication. 

(I'm tongue-in-cheek!)


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