# worldliness?



## bill c. (Apr 11, 2005)

I have just finished the first part of Joel Beeke's "Overcoming the World". It seems like a great book. Has anyone else read it?

The first part calls for overcoming worldliness. This seems rather tough. Anybody have any suggestions as to how to do this.


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## Robin (Apr 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bill c._
> I have just finished the first part of Joel Beeke's "Overcoming the World". It seems like a great book. Has anyone else read it?
> 
> The first part calls for overcoming worldliness. This seems rather tough. Anybody have any suggestions as to how to do this.



It depends on what he says "worldliness" means.

Paul means by that word -- at the core -- it is to believe "good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell." (When _God saves the wicked_.)

Worldliness was exemplified in what we saw the world do last week in it's adoration of the Pope. 

I know Beeke is a good guy...but what precisely does he say it means to be "worldly?"

Thoughts?



Robin


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## bill c. (Apr 11, 2005)

He's basically calling worldliness getting caught up in the pursuit of pleasure, profit, and preferment. I can see the pleasure aspect easily. What about the profit and preferment? This is where things get a little murky. I am thinking of my 403B? Should I be worried about my investments? As for preferment...what about seeking promotions at work? If I'm not to compartmentalize my walk with the Lord does this mean I shouldn't seek after a promotion? How far do we go in avoiding worldliness?


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## Larry Hughes (Apr 11, 2005)

I think this is where the reformers, particularly Luther, really were most helpful - vocation. We are all called to various vocations and these glorify God and not just that which is "church duty" only. In some circles we have returned to a kind of "protestant" version of monkery with a view that "these few good works within the church is all that is acceptable". This is why the protestant work ethic has decreased in our time, the low view and value of vocation.

Vocations and good works, assuming your vocation is not openly sinful like a drug dealer or prostitution, are glorifying to God as performed by the Christian why? Because of and ONLY because of faith. Why? Faith is always the highest. And why? Because faith is resting in Christ alone, thus infinite by measure. Works, deeds and vocations what-ever they are absolutely nothing in the eyes of God performed by anyone without faith attending them. "Apart from faith all is sin". It is faith or rather faith's object, Christ, that makes any work, deed or vocation acceptable to God. Therefore, we may easily see that NO work, deed or vocation even if it is giving one's life for another is acceptable in the sight of God. 

Thus, for an extreme example a truck driver who is a believer working in view of faith pleases God, while the greatest evangelist who may be at root an unbeliever sins. The trucker pleases God not because of the work being done, but because of the faith attending it and this faith is in His beloved Son in Whom alone He is well pleased.

Faith in Christ must be highest always, not the work, deed or vocation. Thus, you can seek your job promotion for it is Christ alone who pleases God, trust Him and by faith serve as you are called in providence.

ldh


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## bill c. (Apr 12, 2005)

Thanks Larry. I guess I'm too much of the mindset that "vocation" refers solely to the ministry. 

I'm not involved in anything sinful though sometimes I wonder. I work for a secular social service agency and sometimes I find in the hurly burly of work that I forget Christ. Much to my regret. I'm glad He never forgets me. What's that old prayer that one of the Roundheads used before battle? "If I forget Thee this day O Lord, please do not Thee forget me."

bill


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 12, 2005)

to what Larry said. The decline of the Protestant work ethic in our day generally is something to be lamented, and we all ought to strive, by the grace of God, to glorify God by serving our Master in Heaven to the best of our abilities in whatever lawful vocation to which we are called. And how do we do this? As Larry said, it is not the work itself, it is the attitude of the heart, whether it is done in faith or not, which renders it acceptable in God's sight. 

Roman monks thought to escape worldliness by cloistering themselves away. Luther was right to shine the light of the gospel upon every lawful occupation. 

God's Word commends those who take care for their business responsibilities. "Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds." (Prov. 27.23) And yet, "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Mat. 6.33) "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (Co. 3.17)


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## Robin (Apr 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bill c._
> Thanks Larry. I guess I'm too much of the mindset that "vocation" refers solely to the ministry.
> 
> I'm not involved in anything sinful though sometimes I wonder. I work for a secular social service agency and sometimes I find in the hurly burly of work that I forget Christ. Much to my regret. I'm glad He never forgets me. What's that old prayer that one of the Roundheads used before battle? "If I forget Thee this day O Lord, please do not Thee forget me."
> ...



Well, Bill, you're a normal justified sinner, like the rest of us! We all forget Christ -- getting caught up in the affairs of life. But, Christ paid for that too.

I think it's important to note that Paul's teaching doesn't present sanctification as being "moral reformation" primarily. Rather, it's a present state (of being set a part) linked to justification. Sure, as the Christian matures, because Christ indwells us, we grow to hate our selves (because of the grief of sinning.) Hoo-boy! The world says we need self-esteem....which is linked to the idea: good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell.

Meanwhile, if you're a ditch-digger, as Larry explained, you glorify God by simply living up to your calling, as unto the Lord --- the work is equal to the greatest evangelist. Being on time; doing quality work; not using company time to evangelize....Godly vocational work many times has nothing whatsoever to do with so-called Christian vocations.



Robin


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## lkjohnson (Apr 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> It depends on what he says "worldliness" means.
> 
> Paul means by that word -- at the core -- it is to believe "good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell." (When _God saves the wicked_.)



Robin, please quote your source or support your statement. This definition seems dangerously narrow to me.


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## Robin (Apr 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lkjohnson_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Robin_
> ...



To clarify, Lance, Paul's mind about "worldliness" is in contrast to the "mind of Christ." While sanctification does include desiring to repent from various moral failures/sins...the Reformed understanding is not grounded in the idea of moral character development. Sanctification is at once, a present reality-forensically declared with justification AND is also a process throughout the Christian life of "conforming to Christ" or thinking the way Christ thinks. Moral reform is not at the fore. It is common for Christians, having the mind of Christ, to outwardly show great struggle with continual sin. 

Also, the concept is a _short-hand_ for Paul's broad-view that ultimately Satan's modus operandi is to twist the Gospel into Law -- to obscure it so as to foil the most needful change in the souls of men: receive the Gospel and eternal life.
The natural man (including Christians) always drifts into thinking there is something (however small) that will help him gain merit with God. 

The thinking of the world is opposite to the mind of Christ. In a nutshell, the world's wisdom ultimately "says" good people go to heaven; bad people go to hell. This is played-out in various expressions....but underneath it all, it is the one mindset of idolatry.

Only true Christianity -- alone -- claims that man cannot save himself- he must look to another.

This is consistent with Reformed confessions - the actual summary came from a study in Romans with Kim Riddlebarger, supported by Berkhof.

Is this dangerously narrow? Yes, indeed. Jesus explained that The Gate of salvation is.

R.



[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Robin]


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## turmeric (Apr 14, 2005)

The thinking of the "world" is concern with this temporal age which is passing away. Works-righteousness is certainly part of it, but I think you're going to get an argument when you say that the Reformed view of sanctification is not primarily concerned with development of moral character. This is what has confused me, when I went to Dispensational & Pentecostal churches, they would tell me exactly how to resist sin. They were wrong, of course. The Reformed just say "Just Do It" and don't do it the way these other folks said to do it.

So now I do what?...


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## Robin (Apr 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> The thinking of the "world" is concern with this temporal age which is passing away. Works-righteousness is certainly part of it, but I think you're going to get an argument when you say that the Reformed view of sanctification is not primarily concerned with development of moral character. This is what has confused me, when I went to Dispensational & Pentecostal churches, they would tell me exactly how to resist sin. They were wrong, of course. The Reformed just say "Just Do It" and don't do it the way these other folks said to do it.
> So now I do what?...



You're right, Meg...this subject can be confusing. I did not mean, nor say the Reformed are not concerned with sanctification applicable to repentence. There is a distinction. Justification- the forensic declaration that we are made righteous before God by the merits of Christ -- makes us in that moment, completely sanctified (God sees us like Christ-clothed in His righteousness.) We must be reminded of this regularly via the Gospel because of our weakness. Calvin explains this ...but Paul is the best teacher on it.

The Reformed say the Gospel brings about moral change in justified sinners. (Your experience sounds different than my references here...I mean the Reformed that are consistent with Paul.) 

Mostly, the confusion occurs because Romans 6,7 and 8 are not read in order, or well. It can be as simple (but not easy) as reading large portions of Scripture, in order, using sound grammar. Example: the Wesleyan Holiness movement was fueled by confusing Romans 6-8. Romanists do the same thing. In fact, all denominations that are "off" on the Gospel indeed must confuse justification and sanctification.

Again, I am NOT saying the Reformed are not concerned with character. I am saying that sactification is not grounded in the idea of moral improvement- it is grounded in justification (the Gospel.) This is the Reformed (and Biblical) position. Christ WILL complete what He has begun in the hearts of the elect. The sacraments are signs of His promise.

Paul uses the Gospel to reach the hearts of struggling Christian sinners. He first explains the Gospel; then he appeals to them on the basis of what Christ has already done. Read his letters in order (beginning through to the end.) 1 Corinthians is great, since its situation is nearly identical to what we have today: denominational competitiveness; individualism; fights; gross sexual sin; idolatry. Basically, "Paganism 101" in the Church.

The Corinthians struggled with strong, decadent lifestyle habits, difficult to shake-off. They didn't know the 10 Commandments nor could relate to the Judeo-Christian ethic per se'. Paul's method was to remind them of the Gospel; only after which, he appeals to them to repent - by either fleeing or as you say, "just DO it." Paul explains in 1 Cor. 6:10-12 that they "were" like the idolators; thieves, Etc. before Christ washed them. Paul says they are no longer these sinful people (eventhough evidence is to the contrary.) One thing I noticed is Paul doesn't give the Corinthians a "To Do" list! Interesting.

You ask _so now I do what_? Study and hear as much knowledge of Christ (Gospel) you can lay your hands on. (Preaching; reading.) Make sure it's about Christ though. (Not YOU.) In so doing, pray for illumination because if you are IN Christ, you have His mind already. Ask that He grant you grace to turn from sin (as I'm sure you already do.) Depend on the Word and sacraments - they are God's means to nourish His people as they sojourn through the "desert" of this evil age that is passing away.

Of course, when necessary, wise and practical solutions can apply: see a doctor; consult your pastor; reach out to a friend; take responsibility, Etc.

But our first protector, is the Lord...especially for the Christian, as we wage war against the world; the flesh and the devil.



R.

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by Robin]

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by Robin]


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