# Blasphemy in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America)?



## NaphtaliPress (Jul 12, 2017)

This video from last fall is making the rounds this last week and causing a stir. Dr. Pipa at GPTS has called it out as blasphemous, tantamount to Baal worship and charges need to be filed and time for folks in the PCA who believe in the principles of the confessional standards to step up and not demur and out of fear of being ungentlemanly not call a spade a spade. The video is linked below. Dr. Keller has on his facebook page apparently obliquely defended this, judging from his responses on the comments; which, you will need to bear with some unhelpful to say the least commenters).




Dr. Pipa's comments with a brief reasoning against the propriety of liturgical dance in worship opens the podcast. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?m=t&s=71117163425
How can one church stand that has one group celebrating, boasting about and defending a worship practice, that another finds not just unappealing, but unscriptural, offensive and blasphemous?

Reactions: Informative 4 | Sad 2


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jul 12, 2017)

Looked to me at 12 seconds in that the communion table was set up immediately below the stage, too. Sigh.


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## kodos (Jul 12, 2017)

With all due respect to Rev. Keller, his Facebook post was only a series of assertions. However, he did quote from Arthur Danto, art critic and philosopher, to make a point about imagination! Not even a pretense of anything Biblical in this defense.

This is quite alarming, to say the least.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RamistThomist (Jul 12, 2017)

I have a hyper-traditional Roman Catholic friend who has a facebook page making fun of the Novus Ordo (post-Vatican II watered down) liturgy. The joke in trad Catholic circles is that Novus Ordo liturgies entail clown masses and liturgical dance. I never thought it would happen here in Reformeddom.

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## Gforce9 (Jul 12, 2017)

Add some monkeys on roller skates and you have a circus....

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## TheOldCourse (Jul 12, 2017)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Looked to me at 12 seconds in that the communion table was set up immediately below the stage, too. Sigh.



Yes, from what I read this was during the offertory and as a prelude to the Lord's Supper. It's an abomination.


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## ZackF (Jul 12, 2017)

Astonishing. Did anyone find a reason for this display?


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 12, 2017)

ZackF said:


> Astonishing. Did anyone find a reason for this display?



Supposedly it represented the trinity. Regardless, it was horrifying.


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## ZackF (Jul 12, 2017)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Supposedly it represented the trinity. Regardless, it was horrifying.



That would make it more horrifying in my opinion. This stuff is not out of place in American mega-church culture with the skits, lights, smoke and other performance/entertainment rigmarole. The ballet supposedly makes this a bit more high-brow. Sad.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 12, 2017)

Hasn't made the Museum, yet. Hmmmm.... oversight!
http://www.piratechristian.com/museum-of-idolatry


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 12, 2017)

"My wife danced for the St. Louis Ballet Co. for many years and says that a number of the moves performed in this dance were designed for male/female and not male/male dancers.

"I don't know if it was Redeemer's intention to advocate something concerning sexuality or gender, but surely most heterosexual people (believers and unbelievers) would think this is questionable to say the least.

I thought I had seen everything in the PCA from raucous praise bands to women reading Scripture in worship, to the practice of intinction, but this bizarre dramatic portrayal of John 13:21ff performed by three male dancers dressed in white takes the cake." 

Src: https://www.facebook.com/andrewjwebb/posts/10159042547455038?comment_id=10159043774765038&comment_tracking={"tn":"R"}


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## augustacarguy (Jul 12, 2017)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Hasn't made the Museum, yet. Hmmmm.... oversight!
> http://www.piratechristian.com/museum-of-idolatry



Love me some PCR. 


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## Edm (Jul 12, 2017)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Looked to me at 12 seconds in that the communion table was set up immediately below the stage, too. Sigh.



I only made it about 12 seconds. I would have walked out. I saw something similar at a SBC once, and I did walk out.


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## Polanus1561 (Jul 12, 2017)

Females going into the diaconate role, and males seeing dancing as a ministry, on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation..

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Silas22 (Jul 12, 2017)

I honestly cannot wrap my head around this. At what point did anyone think this was ok?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 12, 2017)

When folks like Frame argued for liturgical dance? I mean, seriously, this has not happened in the dark. The new mix is adding the cultural decline to the rejection of biblical worship (liturgical dance has been going on in the PCA unchallenged for decades). I confess it still leaves me a bit breathless how quickly this decline has occurred; but scriptural worship principles were undermined in the PCA from the day it could not pass a directory for worship accorded constitutional status.


YRRSBCGuy said:


> I honestly cannot wrap my head around this. At what point did anyone think this was ok?


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## reaganmarsh (Jul 12, 2017)

John Yap said:


> Females going into the diaconate role, and males seeing dancing as a ministry, on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation..



Hear, hear. Very sad.


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## bookslover (Jul 13, 2017)

Definitely unscriptural. Has no place in a Christian worship service. Dance, being non-verbal, is completely subjective as to interpretation. If that was supposed to be a dance about the Trinity, well, you'll just have to take their word for it, I suppose. Does nothing to explain the Trinity, of course.

That's the PCA for you.


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## Yzzy (Jul 13, 2017)

That was creepy. Was that first dancer wearing makeup?

C'mon guys, you're supposed to be leaders, not pretty boy dancers.


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## lynnie (Jul 13, 2017)

I've been to Messianic churches in the 1970s with a Jewish girl that got saved. They were into dancing a la Psalm 150 ( "Praise Him with timbrel and dancing").

You know what? The men dancing were so masculine. I don't know how else to put it- they looked like they could be King David before the ark. I don't know anything about dance from a professional standpoint, but it was- intuitively speaking- masculinity with the guys who danced. Maybe part of it was the songs, which back then tended to be scripture set to rousing music. It powerfully joyful. The men were men, and the dancing conveyed strength.

This video you posted? Ugh. Even if I thought it was acceptable to dance, this isn't it. It isn't masculine at all. My reaction is that it is effeminate perversion in the church. I am again speaking somewhat intuitively, but when you've seen men dancing in a truly masculine way, you can look at this and immediately know it is wrong.

Reactions: Like 3


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## RamistThomist (Jul 13, 2017)

lynnie said:


> I've been to Messianic churches in the 1970s with a Jewish girl that got saved. They were into dancing a la Psalm 150 ( "Praise Him with timbrel and dancing").
> 
> You know what? The men dancing were so masculine. I don't know how else to put it- they looked like they could be King David before the ark. I don't know anything about dance from a professional standpoint, but it was- intuitively speaking- masculinity with the guys who danced. Maybe part of it was the songs, which back then tended to be scripture set to rousing music. It powerfully joyful. The men were men, and the dancing conveyed strength.
> 
> This video you posted? Ugh. Even if I thought it was acceptable to dance, this isn't it. It isn't masculine at all. My reaction is that it is effeminate perversion in the church. I am again speaking somewhat intuitively, but when you've seen men dancing in a truly masculine way, you can look at this and immediately know it is wrong.



Well said. I don't want to categorically say dancing qua dancing is wrong (even though you will never catch me dancing), simply because the bible occasionally commands it. But this was so effeminate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## KMK (Jul 13, 2017)

lynnie said:


> I've been to Messianic churches in the 1970s with a Jewish girl that got saved. They were into dancing a la Psalm 150 ( "Praise Him with timbrel and dancing").
> 
> You know what? The men dancing were so masculine. I don't know how else to put it- they looked like they could be King David before the ark. I don't know anything about dance from a professional standpoint, but it was- intuitively speaking- masculinity with the guys who danced. Maybe part of it was the songs, which back then tended to be scripture set to rousing music. It powerfully joyful. The men were men, and the dancing conveyed strength.
> 
> This video you posted? Ugh. Even if I thought it was acceptable to dance, this isn't it. It isn't masculine at all. My reaction is that it is effeminate perversion in the church. I am again speaking somewhat intuitively, but when you've seen men dancing in a truly masculine way, you can look at this and immediately know it is wrong.



Maybe the PCA should stick with the Bottle Dance from Fiddler on the Roof in their worship services.

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## greenbaggins (Jul 13, 2017)

KMK said:


> Maybe the PCA should stick with the Bottle Dance from Fiddler on the Roof in their worship services.



More like "Spin the Bottle" if you ask me. ;-)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gforce9 (Jul 13, 2017)

greenbaggins said:


> More like "Spin the Bottle" if you ask me. ;-)



If I have to watch that again, I may have to hit the bottle......

Reactions: Funny 1


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## VictorBravo (Jul 13, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> (liturgical dance has been going on in the PCA unchallenged for decades)



Really? I must really be in backwater circles. I hadn't heard of such a thing. I can't even conjure up the word "liturgical" being combined with "dance."

I have seen cantatas in a Lutheran setting, but they stood around singing.



ReformedReidian said:


> Well said. I don't want to categorically say dancing qua dancing is wrong (even though you will never catch me dancing), simply because the bible occasionally commands it. But this was so effeminate.



Exactly my position and my thought. (I last "danced" in the late 70s one evening in a disco. My knee went out and I was sprawled on the floor. Everyone stood around to see what my next move would be.)

I thought the dancing here was not only effeminate, but not particularly good, either. The symmetry and balance struck me as amateurish.

But that is mere snark to deflect the overall shock I felt at seeing the video.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 13, 2017)

Probably back to the mid to late 1990s maybe? In 2002 the pre GA worship included liturgical ballet dancers. 


VictorBravo said:


> Really? I must really be in backwater circles.


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## JimmyH (Jul 13, 2017)

Could you imagine Revered D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones sitting still for such a thing ? Does Matthew 7:21-23 possibly apply to those responsible for this ?


> 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 13, 2017)

The moral decay among the PCA leadership is pretty profound. Or maybe I'm just way out of touch. I was told by a commissioner to this year's assembly that outside he overheard a group of commissioners (from the hip progressive side was the implication) using profanity, swearing and F-bombs. He gently chided them but was told Jesus loved us and a little swearing sometimes is okay.


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## KMK (Jul 13, 2017)

VictorBravo said:


> Exactly my position and my thought. (I last "danced" in the late 70s one evening in a disco. My knee went out and I was sprawled on the floor. Everyone stood around to see what my next move would be.)



Your roller skates must have been defective.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 13, 2017)

VictorBravo said:


> Everyone stood around to see what my next move would be.



I didn't laugh because of your injury, but I almost laughed just on the basis of how you told the story.


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## Edward (Jul 13, 2017)

lynnie said:


> This video you posted? Ugh. Even if I thought it was acceptable to dance, this isn't it. It isn't masculine at all.



When I first started reading your post, I thought you were talking about these guys being masculine, and I was thinking your 'dar needed a bit of adjustment. These guys may be straight as arrows, but they sure don't come across that way in the part of the dance I could stomach. 



NaphtaliPress said:


> Probably back to the mid to late 1990s maybe?



You are at least a decade off. I remember it from the late 1980s. At least it was women acting feminine back then. And I don't recall that it was part of the worship service when I first ran across it. I don't remember seeing it in worship until the early 90s. (Per Wikipedia, the group I'm thinking of started in 1986. I ran across them within their first couple of years.)



NaphtaliPress said:


> I was told by a commissioner to this year's assembly that outside he overheard a group of commissioners (from the hip progressive side was the implication) using profanity, swearing and F-bombs. He gently chided them but was told Jesus loved us and a little swearing sometimes is okay.



See, that points up the problem. Sometime being gentle in chiding isn't the appropriate response. Building a reputation as the nicest guy in the room brings its own reward, but it isn't going to win many battles.

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## JimmyH (Jul 13, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The moral decay among the PCA leadership is pretty profound. Or maybe I'm just way out of touch. I was told by a commissioner to this year's assembly that outside he overheard a group of commissioners (from the hip progressive side was the implication) *using profanity, swearing and F-bombs. *He gently chided them but was told Jesus loved us and a little swearing sometimes is okay.


I find that puzzling in a sense. We are admonished to 'let no filthy communication come out of your mouth.' to be a 'peculiar people, zealous of good works.' While none of us can achieve perfection in this life, sanctification is something that should be taken seriously. Do they believe the Scriptures ? 


> Colossians 3:8
> 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
> Ephesians 4:29
> 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
> ...


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 13, 2017)

It's anecdotal and only on one report; but, it raises questions of that sort.


JimmyH said:


> I find that puzzling in a sense. We are admonished to 'let no filthy communication come out of your mouth.' to be a 'peculiar people, zealous of good works.' While none of us can achieve perfection in this life, sanctification is something that should be taken seriously. Do they believe the Scriptures ?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 13, 2017)

It's a problem and I saw another prominent example of it today on FB. This is why I appreciated just how strong Dr. Pipa's comments were on the subject of this thread. 


Edward said:


> See, that points up the problem. Sometime being gentle in chiding isn't the appropriate response. Building a reputation as the nicest guy in the room brings its own reward, but it isn't going to win many battles.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 15, 2017)

I, too, resonate with Dr. Pipa's comments and am wholly in agreement with them. 

I am quite familiar with the orchestra, opera, and ballet. On artistic grounds, this is grossly effeminate. Mr. Myers is correct: men typically only lift women this way in ballet. 

On ecclesiastical grounds, this is to be abominated. I do hope that appropriate actions are taken with respect to this. I will not say more than this publicly at this point. 

I cannot recall using such language about matters in a sister denomination that I cherish in any public forum and certainly not in writing, but I've thought carefully about this. May God have mercy on us and grant the needed Reformation to all branches of His Church. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 8 | Edifying 1


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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 15, 2017)

Alan D. Strange said:


> May God have mercy on us and grant the needed Reformation to all branches of His Church.


Alan, I have made positive comments in a previous post about the strong confessionalism of the Reformed Churches of New Zealand and one positive thing in this demomination has been the growing number of pastors trained at Mid-America Reformed Seminary who seem to have a great deal of pastoral maturity. I am sure they will make a blessed contribution to the demonination in years to come.

In that previous post I made negative comments about some in the broader NZ Reformed scene who were adopting weaker views of the Regulative Principle of worship. I did wonder if my criticism was too harsh, but seeing these abuses of the RPW in this particular PCA has confirmed my conviction of what can happen when a church weakens its confessional committments.

And Amen to your comment about God's mercy and Reformation to all branches of His Church.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 15, 2017)

Stephen:

We've had the wonderful opportunity to help in the training of some outstanding men serving in the RCNZ in your beautiful land. We've just had another such brother matriculate. 

I marvel that a sinner like me has not only been called to salvation in Christ but also to be privileged to serve in His Kingdom in this fashion. What a good and gracious God we serve!

I am deeply grateful for these RCNZ brothers and I thank you for your kind comments. We all need to be in much prayer for such Reformation.

Peace,
Alan


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## OPC'n (Jul 15, 2017)

Worship of homosexuality is all I could think of watching this.

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## Edward (Jul 15, 2017)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I do hope that appropriate actions are taken with respect to this.



Metro New York Presbytery? I'd expect the same response that we saw to the ordination service for women deacons a few years back.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 15, 2017)

I wasn't thinking that it would be originated with the MNY Presbytery, failing to be mindful of the differences here between the PCA and OPC.

As I recall, according to your BOCO, only one subject to or part of a particular court may file a complaint against it. The OPC BCO provides for one presbytery to file a complaint against another. If the complaining Presbytery is not satisfied with the disposition of its complaint, it may file an appeal with GA. Things work differently in the PCA.

Thus, you may well be right. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Ryan J. Ross (Jul 16, 2017)

Is this not "fencing the table"? It's so hard to tell these days.


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## Edward (Jul 16, 2017)

Ryan J. Ross said:


> Is this not "fencing the table"?



Wouldn't that require guys with foils and masks instead of barefoot twinkletoe dancing?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ryan J. Ross (Jul 16, 2017)

Edward said:


> Wouldn't that require guys with foils and masks instead of barefoot twinkletoe dancing?



True. Without a foil, I don't see them taking their duties seriously. 


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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 17, 2017)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I am deeply grateful for these RCNZ brothers and I thank you for your kind comments. We all need to be in much prayer for such Reformation.


My pleasure Alan. As you may be aware, the Reformed Churches of NZ have their Synod later this year. New Zealand is fast coming an anti Christian country (we are more secular than the USA) so there are real challanges for ministers here in coming years. Also there is pressure on the RCNZ to "modernise" their worship to cater for a fast changing society.

Some USA ministers who have come here to minister the Word and sacrament have been discouraged because we do not have the number of Reformed churches as the USA (particularly to offer extra fellowship and support). Certainly prayer from our OPC friends is much appreciated.

I have often encouraged my friends to listen to Dr Lloyd-Jones classic sermons on reival. One may have the odd disagreement re Dr Lloyd-Jones view of the Holy Spirit, but his God-centered approach is surely what we desperately need today USA, NZ and all nations of the world! https://www.mljtrust.org/collections/revival/


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