# FLDS Case



## Pilgrim (Apr 17, 2008)

Is it just me or does the FLDS child custody case look to be in danger of unraveling? The sheer numbers involved are unprecedented. A similar case in the 1950's in Arizona against the FLDS fell apart. 

It doesn't take too active of an imagination to forsee public opinion swinging against the Texas Child Protective Services and in favor of the cultists. "After all, who are we to impose our morality?" is what we are likely to hear if we haven't already. The kids and women will likely say they were happy since they don't have any alternative to compare to unless they will have been exposed to it after the raid.


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## Blue Tick (Apr 17, 2008)

I haven't been following the case, what's the argument while the kids were taken from their parents?


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## Augusta (Apr 17, 2008)

A purported call to CPS by a sixteen year old girl who said she was forcible married to a 50 yr old man and had his child. The call may have been a hoax because they cannot find the girl.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 17, 2008)

*It's a royal mess.*



Pilgrim said:


> Is it just me or does the FLDS child custody case look to be in danger of unraveling? The sheer numbers involved are unprecedented. A similar case in the 1950's in Arizona against the FLDS fell apart.
> 
> It doesn't take too active of an imagination to forsee public opinion swinging against the Texas Child Protective Services and in favor of the cultists. "After all, who are we to impose our morality?" is what we are likely to hear if we haven't already. The kids and women will likely say they were happy since they don't have any alternative to compare to unless they will have been exposed to it after the raid.


And truth be told, it was poorly planned and executed.

I'm thinking the most important thing to do is identify the pregnant underage girls, or those who were underage when they got pregnant.

There's no _legal_ way for a girl 15 years old or younger to _be _pregnant. So first locate them, as clearly their situation is lamentable, and their parents have been of no use, and since the absolute earliest one can be married in Texas is 16 (and that only with court approval), she cannot have a legal husband.

It's the girls that should be the primary focus. Families with only sons can be shoved to the back of the process.

Of course, that's a problem right there, as that means the children most likely to have not been abused are the children who'll be separated from their parents the longest. That doesn't seem right, does it?

Thing is, on the one hand I'm uncomfortable with the state stomping in and doing a wholesale kid-grab.

Not a good precedent.

OTOH, polygamy is illegal in Texas. If this was a compound where families were teaching their children to steal, we'd be horrified and all in favor of the children being separated from such a deplorable environment. Why is it okay for people to raise their children to be polygamists, since polygamy is just as illegal as theft? Anyone raising their children to break the law should expect to lose custody of those children.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 17, 2008)

Gryphonette said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does the FLDS child custody case look to be in danger of unraveling? The sheer numbers involved are unprecedented. A similar case in the 1950's in Arizona against the FLDS fell apart.
> ...



Of course many of the polygamists now are smart enough not to actually commit bigamy i.e. have the marriage legitimized by the state. They call it a spiritual marriage. In that case it would seem that it is no different than shacking up as far as the state is concerned. 

Considering the move to overturn sodomy laws and the ongoing attempt to legalize "gay marriage" how much longer will it be before there is a push to legalize polygamy?


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## Herald (Apr 17, 2008)

I can think of one reason why the government will never legalize polygamy: less tax revenue.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 17, 2008)

*Ah, but Texas is a common-law marriage state.*



Pilgrim said:


> Of course many of the polygamists now are smart enough not to actually commit bigamy i.e. have the marriage legitimized by the state. They call it a spiritual marriage. In that case it would seem that it is no different than shacking up as far as the state is concerned.
> 
> Considering the move to overturn sodomy laws and the ongoing attempt to legalize "gay marriage" how much longer will it be before there is a push to legalize polygamy?


One needn't do the license+vows thing to be legally married here. All that's necessary is to present yourselves as married.

Now, THAT they've done. 

So I can think of no legal reason these people - especially the men who've impregnated multiple women - shouldn't be charged with bigamy.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 17, 2008)

So you make a call claiming the neighbors kids, who you think run wild, are abused and this is what is standard due process in Texas.

Also, How unbiased is this? The courtroom judge is the same judge that ordered the raids in the first place....

Plus they have not found the girl who made the call and it looks like to everyone that it was a hoax.

This is a constitutional mess and I feel that this might have far reaching ramifications for us Christians who will be culturally different then those around society whether it is about anything else that CPS, Social Services, etc deems abusive whether it is Homeschooling, Vaccination issues, Discipline of our Youth, Modesty Differences or anything else that the media and government has demonized this group for. 

I happen to know that John Knox married at 50 years of age to a 16 year old girl and John Calvin put marriageable age and flower of Youth between 12 and 20 years of age... Most Theologians agree that Mary had our beloved Savior at or around 14 years of age...

I will leave the particularities of this case alone but I do believe this is a constitutional mess and has far reaching implications..


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## Gryphonette (Apr 17, 2008)

Did Knox really? Well, ick. I'll never understand the appeal of cradle robbing, and don't ever think it's really okay with the teenage girl. 

And no, it's not really what standard due process is in Texas. The authorities were aware of the goings-on in the compound but without a complaint, they felt they couldn't do anything.

Which I disagree with, personally. Polygamy is illegal in Texas, for pity's sake, and that's an openly polygamous group. What's the point of outlawing polygamy if it's ignored like that?

However, if the FLDS would be welcome in Maryland, I'll recommend they ship the lot of 'em up to y'all. Problem solved. ;^)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 17, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> So you make a call claiming the neighbors kids, who you think run wild, are abused and this is what is standard due process in Texas.
> 
> Also, How unbiased is this? The courtroom judge is the same judge that ordered the raids in the first place....
> 
> ...



Minor correction, John Knox's second wife was 17 years old when they married. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/marriages-reformers-4365/


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## Thomas2007 (Apr 17, 2008)

Anybody who lives in a "compound," is obviously up to no good - unless of course their name is Kennedy, then it's ok because their "compound" is actually Camelot. But we know these people are up to no good because they were living in a "compound." I'm not exactly sure what a "compound" is, but I do know that anytime the government seems to feel compelled to raid someplace with national news coverage that is what these people live in.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 17, 2008)

*A dictionary clears that right up. ;^)*

A compound is " a cluster of buildings having a shared purpose, usually inside a fence or wall."

That's an accurate description of the FLDS _whatchamacallit _around San Angelo.

Couldn't say about the Kennedys' place, though.




Thomas2007 said:


> Anybody who lives in a "compound," is obviously up to no good - unless of course their name is Kennedy, then it's ok because their "compound" is actually Camelot. But we know these people are up to no good because they were living in a "compound." I'm not exactly sure what a "compound" is, but I do know that anytime the government seems to feel compelled to raid someplace with national news coverage that is what these people live in.


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## Richard King (Apr 18, 2008)

CONSIDER THE IRONY 

Texas is the state where the governor Rick Perry
(a middle aged man) did not suggest but MANDATED without even going through the legislative process what a little girl should have done to her body to prepare for inevitable promiscuity. 
AND he chose nine years old as the prep year for shooting up Gardasil in anticipation of sexual activities. 

Maybe the FLDS leaders could just say they were taking their lead from the Texas governor’s ideas.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 18, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > So you make a call claiming the neighbors kids, who you think run wild, are abused and this is what is standard due process in Texas.
> ...



Correction to the correction: Some sources do say 16 and others say 17; I'm not sure which is correct. 



Thomas2007 said:


> Anybody who lives in a "compound," is obviously up to no good - unless of course their name is Kennedy, then it's ok because their "compound" is actually Camelot. But we know these people are up to no good because they were living in a "compound." I'm not exactly sure what a "compound" is, but I do know that anytime the government seems to feel compelled to raid someplace with national news coverage that is what these people live in.



This is very true. Mount Carmel, anyone?


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## Gryphonette (Apr 18, 2008)

*That's a fact. Still, didn't it get reversed?*



Richard King said:


> CONSIDER THE IRONY
> 
> Texas is the state where the governor Rick Perry
> (a middle aged man) did not suggest but MANDATED without even going through the legislative process what a little girl should have done to her body to prepare for inevitable promiscuity.
> ...


I thought it had.






That was really infuriating on multiple levels.





Well, I've never been a fan of Perry, and hope someone runs against him in the primary.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 21, 2008)

A couple of interesting articles concerning the FLDS case:

Colorado woman may be caller who sparked CPS sweep, officials say | Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Texas Regional News
Polygamist clothing has roots in 19th century and 1950s - Yahoo! News


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 22, 2008)

Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids - Yahoo! News (May 22, 2008)


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## Archlute (May 22, 2008)

Thomas2007 said:


> Anybody who lives in a "compound," is obviously up to no good - unless of course their name is Kennedy, then it's ok because their "compound" is actually Camelot. But we know these people are up to no good because they were living in a "compound." I'm not exactly sure what a "compound" is, but I do know that anytime the government seems to feel compelled to raid someplace with national news coverage that is what these people live in.



When I served as a Ranger I lived in a compound, and lots of foreign governments thought that we were up to no good


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## Archlute (May 22, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids - Yahoo! News (May 22, 2008)



I was glad to see this, and I hope that the state agencies involved get more than a slap on the wrist for it.


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## LadyFlynt (May 22, 2008)

Archlute said:


> Thomas2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody who lives in a "compound," is obviously up to no good - unless of course their name is Kennedy, then it's ok because their "compound" is actually Camelot. But we know these people are up to no good because they were living in a "compound." I'm not exactly sure what a "compound" is, but I do know that anytime the government seems to feel compelled to raid someplace with national news coverage that is what these people live in.
> ...


 Half my childhood was on military "compounds"  Talk about kids and rules...we had more of them than the norm and you can bet we learned to follow them!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 23, 2008)

Authorities appeal court ruling in polygamist case - Yahoo! News (May 23, 2008)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 2, 2008)

Women from Texas polygamous sect launch clothing line - Yahoo! News (July 2, 2008)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 31, 2008)

Polygamist child custody case winds down in Texas - Yahoo! News (October 31, 2008)


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