# EP or Hymns or Nothing At All?



## OPC'n (Feb 11, 2016)

I've been silently following a thread about singing in worship. I have to admit I have NO knowledge on the subject. However, when this subject arises, I often think of it the way I think of baptism. One side has their beliefs that infant baptism is right and the other side thinks only adults should be baptized and we agree to disagree. But recently I've been thinking about all the "evidence" supporting one side or the other and what if neither side is supported. 

I know the OT people had instruments and they did a lot of singing while using the instruments but do we have evidence that they even sang during worship? Do we have evidence that the NT ppl sang during worship? OR did both the OT and NT ppl sing only outside of worship?

Basically, I'm not wondering if EP vs hymns is correct but if the very act of singing in worship is correct. I want to start with this first then move (if there's proof to sing in worship at all) into which which style is correct... EP vs hymns.

2 Chronicles 29:25-30 might be evidence that the OT ppl sang during worship, but I would have know that this is truly worship in order to apply it. I'm thinking it might not be since it does use instruments and surely the EP'ers would know of this Scripture.


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## Jake (Feb 11, 2016)

During the reformation, Zwingli rejected singing altogether, whereas Luther's allowed for hymn-singing and Calvin generally emphasized almost entirely psalmody and inspired songs (there is disagreement by scholars over whether he permitted hymns himself).


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2016)

OPC'n said:


> I've been silently following a thread about singing in worship. I have to admit I have NO knowledge on the subject. However, when this subject arises, I often think of it the way I think of baptism. One side has their beliefs that infant baptism is right and the other side thinks only adults should be baptized and we agree to disagree. But recently I've been thinking about all the "evidence" supporting one side or the other and what if neither side is supported.
> 
> I know the OT people had instruments and they did a lot of singing while using the instruments but do we have evidence that they even sang during worship? Do we have evidence that the NT ppl sang during worship? OR did both the OT and NT ppl sing only outside of worship?
> 
> ...



2 Chron says that the 'assembly' worshipped. In v28-30 it shows that the singers were actually Levitical priests.

The difference between OT worship, i.e. that which was done specifically by appointed temple assignment, i.e. congregational singing was not commanded and NT worship, i.e. we now sing congregationally, Jesus being the sole high priest, no temple, etc. is pretty clear. 

We have the exhortation in the NT to sing...


Ephesians 5:19 
19*Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 

Colossians 3:16 
16*Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly bin all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 5:19–Col 3:16.


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## Jeri Tanner (Feb 11, 2016)

Like Zwingli, some (or all) early Particular Baptists at one time rejected singing during corporate worship- some would allow the singing of Psalms after worship for those who wished it. They were afraid, I think, of the obvious problems that arise when people begin to differ on what should be sung and how, and I guess were not convinced that singing was commanded for corporate worship. 

In 2 Chronicles 29, appointed Levites were the singers. I don't believe there is any OT text showing that the congregations sang when the instruments were played, but there are "typical" things going on here, so that doesn't mean the congregation does not now sing. 

The Psalms were and are definitely songs, meant to be sung. The Hebrew word "shiyr" is translated song, sing, etc. and often describes the Psalms. Paul commands that we sing ("ado") the Psalms (Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19). Since it is to "one another" that we are to speak/sing them, it surely follows that this is when the church is gathered. 

You ask a good question, Sarah. It has been wrestled with before!


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## Ed Walsh (Feb 11, 2016)

OPC'n said:


> I know the OT people had instruments and they did a lot of singing while using the instruments but do we have evidence that they even sang during worship?



Here are several thoughts:

_*Singing in the “assembly of the godly,” is commanded in the Psalms.*_
Psalm 149:1
Hallelujah! Sing to the Lord a new song, His praise in the assembly of the godly.

_*Jesus and His disciples sang at the Lord’s Supper. Was that not a worship service?*_
Mark 14:22-26
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And *when they had sung an hymn*, they went out into the mount of Olives. 

*Teaching and admonishing is conducted in worship*, though not exclusively in worship:
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

===================

_*To my knowledge, singing was not commanded by the law of Moses. But David instituted singing in worship. David’s possible reasoning is shown below:*_

Regulation By Analogy
As we saw in chapter 4, David applied the Mosaic law when he appointed the Levites for their ministry of music at the ark-shrine and at the temple. That discussion raises two large issues of liturgical theology and practice. First, it raises the question of liturgical hermeneutics, of how we are to apply the Bible to worship. From the Law, David learned that Levites were chosen to “minister” to Yahweh, and he concluded that this ministry legitimately included song. Kleinig suggests that David was applying the following line of reasoning:

The temporary responsibility of the Levites for the transportation of the ark was part of a larger and more permanent duty to minister to the Lord who sat enthroned above it and met with his people there. This ministry, which was performed “in” or “with the Lord’s name” (Deut. 18:5, 7), was carried out by the Levites as they proclaimed that name to the people in songs of praise. So then, while liturgical song was not explicitly instituted in the Pentateuch, it was held to be included in the commission of the Levites by the Lord to minister in his name[1]

Elsewhere, Kleinig helpfully suggests that there was an analogy between “kings in the ancient world [who] were entertained with music and song in their banquets” and the ministry of music to a god,[2] and this perhaps provides another insight into the logic of David’s application of the Law. Yahweh’s altar was His “table” and the sacrifices are His “bread” (e.g., Lev. 21:16–24). Thus, Levitical “ministry” or “service” was “table service.” David expanded sharat [I have no idea what this word is] to include musical performance by reasoning that Yahweh should be served at His table as a king would be served at his, with a banquet of song to accompany the banquet of flesh, bread, and wine.

Similarly, as noted in chapter 4, David expanded the Mosaic requirement of trumpets at the daily ascensions (Num. 10:9–10) to include other sorts of musical “memorials.” David’s reasoning at this point seems fairly straightforward: if trumpets must be blown over the ascensions and communion sacrifices, then other musical instruments are legitimate for worship as well, even if they are not explicitly required in the Law. Kleinig speculates about a further element in David’s application of Numbers 10:

By sounding the trumpets the priests were to proclaim the Lord’s presence and announce that he had come to the aid of his people. But the trumpets could not by themselves announce the Lord’s presence. Indeed, how else could his presence be announced but by mention of his name, which was his “mode of remembrance” (Exod. 3:15)? The trumpet was therefore supplemented by the instruments used to accompany those sacred songs which were sung to introduce the Lord by name. The whole temple choir, which consisted of priestly trumpeters and Levitical musicians, thus announced the Lord and proclaimed his presence. The divine command of Num. 10:10 was thereby fulfilled by David through the institution of the choral rite.[3]

If Kleinig is correct, then the Law’s demands could not be obeyed fully without David’s addition of choral music. Worship that included only trumpets could not clearly and fully memorialize Yahweh’s name. David, in short, was not merely thinking, “The Law is fine as it is, but we can incorporate new means of worship that are consistent with the Law, or analogous to the Law’s requirements, in order to glorify and adorn worship.” Rather, he was thinking, “If I do only what the Law requires, I cannot completely obey the Law. To fulfill the Law, I must have a righteousness that surpasses the scribes and Pharisees.”
Whether or not this last point reflects David’s actual intentions, it is clear that David did not see the absence of musical ministry in the Mosaic Law as a reason to prohibit musical ministry. Rather, he interpreted and applied the Mosaic Law as requiring (or, at least, permitting) musical ministry. Clearly, he was operating by some sort of regulative principle of worship, since he cited the Law as grounds for the worship he instituted, but just as clearly he was not operating with a wooden and rigid form of the regulative principle. A strict regulativist living at the time of David would syllogize thus:Major premise: Whatever is not commanded is forbidden.
Minor premise: Singing is not commanded in the Levitical Law.
Conclusion: Therefore, singing in worship is forbidden.​ 
David appears to have reasoned by analogy:Major premise: The Law governs worship.
Minor premise #1: The Law prescribes that trumpets be played over the public ascensions, in public worship.
Minor premise #2: The trumpet is a musical instrument.
Conclusion: Analogously, song and other music are a legitimate part of worship.[4]​ 
David’s example gives us a canonical illustration of liturgical interpretation and application of the Mosaic law, and it shows that the liturgical use of the law in the Old Testament itself was not at all wooden and rigid.[5] In place of a “regulation-by-explicit command” principle, David operated according to a “regulation-by-analogy” principle.

Of course, not all analogies are legitimate. David could not reason:Major Premise: God demands animal sacrifices.
Minor Premise: A pig is an animal.
Conclusion: We may legitimately offer pigs in sacrifice.​ 
That analogy runs contrary to the explicit commands of the Law. Nor could he reason from, say, the liturgical blowing of trumpets to the liturgical blowing of one’s nose. Analogies have to be governed by the explicit statements of Scripture, and by common sense governed by Scripture.

1 Kleinig, The Lord’s Song: The Basis, Function and Significance of Choral Music in Chronicles (JSOT Supplement #156; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1993), 34.
2 Ibid., 100.
3 Ibid., 36–37.
4 An analogy between musical instruments and “voiced” human beings may also be at work. Certainly, the Bible points to an analogy between the temple vessels, including the musical instruments, and human beings.
5 Of course, such regulativists would not criticize David, since they would point out that David had new revelation from God that gave warrant to introduce these innovations. As we have seen, however, the Chronicler was at pains to show that this new revelation was an application and expansion of the Mosaic ordinances, not a completely new form.

Leithart, P. J. (2003). From Silence to Song: The Davidic Liturgical Revolution (pp. 102–105). Moscow, ID: Canon Press.


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## johnny (Feb 11, 2016)

Our last church had a very good organist and we always sang at least two psalms.
I was informed that this position is "Mandated Psalms" in that there must be psalms sung each service.
It was excellent, beautifully played organ and great sounding singing. (like stepping back in time) 

Our new Church is EP and I am "over the moon" about it and thanking God for every service.
We don't have a polished sounding service anymore, we are making mistakes, stumbling our way through.
But I love it, I feel so blessed to be a part of it, I wonder why God has been so kind to us.
Ever since joining the Puritanboard I have been looking for something like this.

Thank you everyone on PB for all the encouragement that this forum brings.
I really love this place


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## jwithnell (Feb 11, 2016)

Interesting question. Given the number of songs recorded, from Moses to Mary and so many betwixt, it would almost seem that the presence of song in worship would have to be excluded from worship rather than the other way around. In other words, singing praise to God seems a Biblically-recorded natural response of a believer to God for his blessing, word, provision, and other scenarios. And what are we to make of the new song in Revelation if song was not a normal part of the faith in this fallen world?


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## Afterthought (Feb 11, 2016)

Strictly speaking, I think the element is "singing psalms with grace in the heart," not singing. But here are some of my thoughts:

(1) James tells us to sing psalms to God when we are merry. The apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, sings hymns in prison. The Corinthians have a charismatic service of song. We could not have any of these take place if the singing was part of the ceremonial law, and we could not have the first two observations if the service of song was only a charismatic ordinance in the New Testament.

(2) Christ declares his name to the brethren by singing psalms in the congregation (Heb. 2:12). This could not be the case if the brethren did not have a service of song in their assemblies.

Robert Shaw on the matter: "This was enjoined, under the Old Testament, as a part of the ordinary worship of God, and it is distinguished from ceremonial worship.—Ps. 69. 30, 31. It is not abrogated under the New Testament, but rather confirmed.—Eph. 5. 19; Col. 3. 16. It is sanctioned by the example of Christ and his apostles.—Matt. 26. 30; Acts 16. 25. The Psalms of David were especially intended by God for the use of the Church, in the exercise of public praise, under the former dispensation; and they are equally adapted to the use of the Church under the present dispensation. Although the apostles insist much upon the abolition of ritual institutions, they give no intimation that the Psalms of David are unsuitable for gospel-worship; and had it been intended that they should be set aside in New Testament times, there is reason to think that another psalmody would have been provided in their room.

In the Book of Psalms there are various passages which seem to indicate that they were intended by the Spirit for the use of the Church in all ages. "I will extol thee, my God, O King," says David, "and I will bless thy name for ever and ever."—Ps. 145. 1. This intimates, as the excellent Henry remarks, "that the Psalms which David penned should be made use of in praising God by the Church to the end of time." We ought to praise God with our lip as well as with our spirits, and should exert ourselves to do it "skilfully."—Ps. 33 3. As this is a part of public worship in which the whole congregation should unite their voices, persons ought to cultivate sacred music, that they may be able to join in this exercise with becoming harmony. But the chief thing is to sing with understanding, and with affections of heart corresponding to the matter sung.—Ps. 47. 7; 1 Cor. 14. 15; Ps. 108. 1."


I don't know if this proves congregational singing, but I think it at least shows singing of psalms is not a ceremonial part of worship and is included in the worship of the assembly. I suppose congregational singing (although I'm not sure whether antiphonal singing would be excluded) might be inferred somehow by including the fact that singing is to take place in the congregation, but we have no more Levites or singers of songs anymore. Nor do we have charismatic singers either. So somehow, the singing is to take place. I am not sure how the inference would proceed from there. Perhaps by noticing that in Jesus singing a hymn with his disciples, he is doing what Psalm 22 says he will do?



> To my knowledge, singing was not commanded by the law of Moses. But David instituted singing in worship. David’s possible reasoning is shown below:


I don't see how this is consistent with the RPW. And I don't see how one of the possible reasons is consistent with the explicit prohibition of not worshipping God the way other nations worshiped their gods. I don't see how the Chronicler being at pains to show the new revelation consisting in the application and expansion of the Law implies that David reasoned by analogy. The Chronicler also states that these things were introduced by the command of the Lord (2 Chr. 29:25). Given a little imagination, I don't see how this "regulation by analogy" actually regulates anything at all.


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## TylerRay (Feb 11, 2016)

Ed Walsh said:


> 5 Of course, such regulativists would not criticize David, since they would point out that David had new revelation from God that gave warrant to introduce these innovations.



This is the correct view. I agree with Raymond that the argument presented doesn't jive with the RPW. David was a prophet. God showed him the design of the temple, the musical instruments, gave him songs to sing, etc.


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## OPC'n (Feb 12, 2016)

Thanks guys for your answers. I'll read them in detail when I have more time. I'm having medical issues with my mother right now so I don't have time right now but I appreciate your responses.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 12, 2016)

This question illustrates the importance of NT people well-catechized to understand the nature of OT worship, and appreciating the transition to NT conditions.

OT worship was all about respecting barriers. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, the first death-dealing barrier was set up to bar the way to the Tree of Life.

In the Tabernacle, then the Temple, there was no music or singing originally. Inspired David institutes the first Levitical choir and instrumentalists. Here's the thing: they functioned in a representative fashion. They sang and played _for_ the people. A local convocation (synagogue) we may well infer included democratic singing of Psalms; the people certainly had opportunity and encouragement to sing the praises of Israel. But in the drawing near, further and further inward toward the Holy of Holies and the divine Presence, invitation beyond the barriers was strictly limited, and what was allowed and designated was strictly enjoined.

The duties of singing still belong to the heirs of Levi, but who are they?
Mal.3:3 "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD."

1Pet.2:5 "You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Heb.13:15 "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."​
That is to say, in the NT the barriers have been thrown down, and we are collectively summoned into the Presence of God, the veil has been torn, and *believers are the choir*. No more professionalism and representation. The walls (looking inward) have been abolished; and the Presence (looking outwards) has gone forth from a single locality, to meeting with the people in their local convocations throughout the whole earth.

Singing has not been done away in NT worship, nor confined now to the reality of heaven's Temple courts, see Rev.5:9. The joyful obligation is the blessed people's privilege.


Ps.69:30-31 "I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs."


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