# Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War



## RamistThomist (Jun 30, 2020)

This is the greatest book on geopolitics ever written. It’s very difficult, too. His style isn’t that difficult and the subject matter is straightforward. The difficulty, as the school of Leo Strauss would later point out, is a dialectic between a surface reading and a deeper reading. 

Part of the book’s popularity is the parallel to the American Empire, prompting such devices as a “Thucydides Trap.” Will American overextend itself and force China to attack it? I think that line of questioning is wrong, but the parallels remain. America, like Athens, is a sea-based power (in the classical Halford Mackinder sense). America, like Athens, believes in spreading Democracy by force whether others want it or not. America, like Athens, doesn’t really practice democracy.

We also see in Athens the “rhetoric of empire.” We must rule you because if we don’t someone will rule us. 

The fatal moment for Athens is the invasion of Sicily and the Battle of Syracuse.

The first set of causes is the Corcyraen and Potidean affairs. This put Athens in a bind. On one hand, they were bound to a peace treaty and couldn’t get involved by helping Corinth. They decided to risk open confrontation because they couldn’t risk Sparta’s allies gaining that much power (I.44ff). Corinth, Sparta’s ally, saw this as Athen’s breaking a peace treaty (56).

Thucydides gives a penetrating analysis of Athenian democracy. He points out that democracy and empire are connected. In the aftermath both sides then recruit their vassals and allies to prepare for war against the other.

Key idea: “War is not so much a matter of armament as of the finance which gives effect to that armament, especially when a land power meets a sea power” (83). Sparta fears that Athens is getting too powerful and has to act before it is too late (118). Athens, on the other hand, knows (or at least believes) that it can “outspend Sparta to death.”

Platea was hostile to Thebes, so the Thebans launched a pre-emptive strike to seize the key ground (II.2). Athens saw this action as breaking the peace treaty, so she began preparing for war.

The highlight of the first year of war is Pericles’ speech to the Athenians (II.35). It’s beautiful, but whitewashed, since his noble talk of democracy doesn’t include slaves or women.

Sections 48ff show the effect of plague upon the war. It hampered Athens’ war effort, but more importantly it illustrated the social decay. In times of plague and crisis, men reduce to their natural levels (II.53).

The book ends with Athens in chaos. Sparta could have really exploited the situation and conquered most of Greece. Unfortunately, they didn’t. The democracy in Athens begins eating itself, which I suspect is the nature of democracy.

Pericles is the main figure of this narrative. He is honest about empire. Athens is an empire. We shouldn’t be fooled by silly talk about democracy. The danger with empire is that when you lose it, your enemies smell blood. Pericles notes: “The empire you possess is now like a tyranny--dangerous to let go” (63).

Later on Athens is even more crass (but honest) in its desire for empire. She tells the Melians: “If the independents survive, it is because we are (perceived) as too frightened to attack them….It is particularly important that we, as a naval power, should not let islanders get away from us, especially you in your weak position” (V:97).

If that leaves it in any doubt, Athens goes on to say, “We dominate people at home so that others should not control us” (VI:87).

*Conclusion*

It’s hard to overstate this book’s importance. It isn’t simply military history. It explores what happens to a society during war time. Social morals often reflect external situations.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## ZackF (Jun 30, 2020)

Thank you. It’s been nearly 25 years since I read this. Another thing that is harder for us to relate to these days is the compartmentalization of the military. Most male citizens saw action including the leaders. There was very little chicken hawkery in the ancient world.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jul 1, 2020)

"Will America overextend itself and force China to attack it?"


WAT?

Don't you have it the other way around? China is expanding as we speak. They are getting very close to all of our peaceful military bases all throughout the world. 


There were no good guys in the P. War. Athens was an evil empire. Sparta seemed better for awhile...until they sided with the Persians to secure enough gold to build their navy. Siding with the Persians was the unpardonable sin of that era for the Greeks. 

Even the brightest lights of the war were often traitors like Alcibiades (though it is amazing how many exploits he pulled off)...


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## RamistThomist (Jul 1, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Don't you have it the other way around? China is expanding as we speak. They are getting very close to all of our peaceful military bases all throughout the world.



It's not my thesis. I'm simply reporting what one thesis is.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 1, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Even the brightest lights of the war were often traitors like Alcibiades (though it is amazing how many exploits he pulled off)...



Some of those were funny


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## Pergamum (Jul 1, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Some of those were funny


Ancient greek troll. Too much IQ for his own good, I think.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ZackF (Jul 1, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Ancient greek troll. Too much IQ for his own good, I think.


I’m sure he’ll be considered much more than a troll though anytime.









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## Pergamum (Jul 2, 2020)

ZackF said:


> I’m sure he’ll be considered much more than a troll though anytime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alcibiades was gay (or bi)...so he is exempt from all statue-destruction. Although his friends may have defaced many statues of Hermes prior to the disastrous Sicilian invasion.


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## greenbaggins (Jul 2, 2020)

I translated Pericles' funeral oration in college. It is the toughest classical Greek in all of Greek literature.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hamalas (Jul 2, 2020)

"peaceful military bases" 

This phrase made me chuckle a bit.


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## Pergamum (Jul 2, 2020)

greenbaggins said:


> I translated Pericles' funeral oration in college. It is the toughest classical Greek in all of Greek literature.


Wow!


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## Timmay (Jul 4, 2020)

In just finished Herodotus and I am about to start this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 4, 2020)

We read this work in Command and Staff College.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RamistThomist (Jul 4, 2020)

Timmay said:


> In just finished Herodotus and I am about to start this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's interesting to compare and contrast their different methodologies. Herodotus to his credit focused on sources. That was new. Still, he often punted to the gods. Thucydides may or may not have believed in the gods, but they didn't play a role in his work.


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