# Paedobaptist marrying Credobaptist



## ServantOfKing (Jun 1, 2006)

I would like to ask for some advice concerning the following situation:
I am getting married in December. I believe in Paedobaptism, keeping the Sabbath day holy (although I am still learning how to do this rightly), and that music in the church should be reverent (not a rock 'n roll production). 
For the four years before going to college, I was actively involved in a "reformed" southern baptist church. The church does not allow anyone to be a member unless they have been immersed, has very contemporary worship which I feel is lacking in the truth department, claims to be committed to expositional preaching and yet I never hear it when I go there, and does not even try to keep the Sabbath day holy. Every service feels like a production and during each service you get the privilege of hearing about how great the church is and how great the preaching is. Honestly, I'd rather experience it than have someone tell me. 
The man I am marrying is a member of the church, and although does question some of these things, does not have much interest in leaving. 
In the past couple of months I have come to clear and unavoidable conclusions about the aformentioned theological issues. I tried to suppress my conscience, but soon realized that doing so is an affront to the Holy Spirit and is quite dangerous. My fiance is becoming more opened to these things, but is going to have a hard time leaving the church. His family is very involved, his dad is a deacon, and the church has the mindset that if you leave, there's something wrong with you not it. We would have to drive between 30 minutes and an hour to go to a PCA or other type of reformed church such as St. Andrews Chapel (RC Sproul). 
We have talked about this and he is slightly open to reading about it. Does anyone have a clear and concise article or source of reading that I could give to him about the subject? Also, does anyone have any advice on how I can practice submission while not going against my conscience and attending a church that I feel is unbiblical? Thank you in advance 
----I should add - My father is not a Christian. He seriously dislikes the baptist church. My mother is a professing believer and is a member of the baptist church although not immensely involved. Neither have much of an opinion. 

[Edited on 6-1-2006 by ServantOfKing]


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## turmeric (Jun 1, 2006)

First thing that pops into my head "Are you sure you want to do this?"


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## ServantOfKing (Jun 1, 2006)

Yes.


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## New wine skin (Jun 1, 2006)

Ashley
I have been where your at. The conflict will most likely get worse. When push comes to shove, you will be surprised to find out how quickly people who didnt have much of an opinion get one and those who seemed to have an open mind close it. I will pray for you that your fiance will be the exception. I would ask him to try out the new church before you get married. This will be a good litmus test. I would keep his parents out of the loop about this, as they will only complicate the issue. 

ps. Welcome to PB and congrats on your engagement


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## Civbert (Jun 1, 2006)

If it's not a matter of conscience for him, then he should be willing to go to a different church. If it is a matter of conscience for him, then you need to be ready to go to his church. Once you are married, I think you need attend the same church. However, you may not be able to become a member if it's a violation of your conscience to be re-baptized. So you need to sit down with him and work this out now before you get married. Make sure he knows that you are having to give up a lot to continuing going to that church, and that he needs to determine where he stands on these issues. If he does not agree with the churches doctrine that only immersion baptized my join, then he needs to change churches. 

You both should agree as much as possible on doctrinal issues, because you want to both be members of a church where you both can be members in good conscience. 

It's a good idea to get some pastoral counseling at the church you are interested in joining. This might entail talking to pastors or elders at more than one church - to see if you can agree with your future spouse, and the church you will be joining - on at least the fundamental issues. Infant baptism is pretty important.

Hope that helps.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 1, 2006)

to what Anthony, Scott and Meg said. I think him trying out a Reformed/Presbyterian church would be a good litmus test. I agree from experience that the conflict will likely only get worse, especially since his family is so involved. You still have several months before the wedding date. Unless you're prepared to join and serve at the SBC church, I'd think twice about going forward with the marriage 

What does Pastor Hobbs think about it?  I met him when he came here for the Presbytery meeting in April. 

http://www.monergism.com has some good articles. 
Jerry Sartelle's little booklet on infant baptism is a good introduction, as is George Marston's _Biblical Baptism_ published by Great Commission Publications. This article by Francis Schaeffer is a good introduction to the Reformed teaching on baptism for someone who is unfamilar with it. in my opinion the idea that baptizo only means immersion is the weakest part of the Baptist position.


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## beej6 (Jun 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Civbert_
> 
> You both should agree as much as possible on doctrinal issues, because you want to both be members of a church where you both can be members in good conscience.
> 
> ...



This would truly be counter cultural, to risk one's engagement on such an issue, yet it's an important one and worth the risk. 

Not only should two married people agree on doctrine in order to be able to attend the same church; more importantly, they also need to be able to lessen the (inevitable) strife in your relationship.

It's not necessary to agree on every jot and tittle; after all, we're talking progressive sanctification here ;-). But the essentials, and also how disputes now and in the future are resolved (preferably between the two of you and His Spirit).

Grace,


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## ServantOfKing (Jun 1, 2006)

Thank you all so much for your advice!  
I do think he is open to trying other churches, and I know that going to the specific SBC church is not a matter of conscience for him either. I have the booklet by Sartelle that I am going to give him when I see him next, so hopefully reading that will at least clear up the misunderstanding he has about infant baptism. Also I think it is good advice to keep his parents out of it. After all we will be forming our own little family.
I love Pastor Hobbs! (This is off subject, but Chris is your church where Matt Baugh and his family went?) P. Hobbs gave us a book on marriage and was going to go through counseling with us. I am hoping that talking to him will clear alot up for both of us. My fiance also went to Calvary when he was here for college and really loved the church. 
Also, thank you for those articles. As long as it is written at a level someone with no prior understanding of covenant theology can read, I think it will be of interest to him.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Have him read William the Baptist.
> 
> I'm not suggesting it as a cure all but it deals with a somewhat similar situation.



I forgot about that one. It's good too. What About Baptism by Dr. F.N. Lee is also in a dialogue format.


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## Scott (Jun 1, 2006)

Ashley: Talk to your pastor at the OPC church you are attending to. You are in for a bumpy ride and hopefully he can provide the kind of insight you won't be able to get on an internet board.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantOfKing_
> Thank you all so much for your advice!
> I do think he is open to trying other churches, and I know that going to the specific SBC church is not a matter of conscience for him either. I have the booklet by Sartelle that I am going to give him when I see him next, so hopefully reading that will at least clear up the misunderstanding he has about infant baptism. Also I think it is good advice to keep his parents out of it. After all we will be forming our own little family.
> I love Pastor Hobbs! (This is off subject, but Chris is your church where Matt Baugh and his family went?) P. Hobbs gave us a book on marriage and was going to go through counseling with us. I am hoping that talking to him will clear alot up for both of us. My fiance also went to Calvary when he was here for college and really loved the church.
> Also, thank you for those articles. As long as it is written at a level someone with no prior understanding of covenant theology can read, I think it will be of interest to him.



No, Matt and his family were at Tchula PCA in Tchula Mississippi before he transferred to the OPC and undertook the mission work in Haiti. But Matt was here in Pineville for the Presbytery meeting and he stayed over and preached for us that Lord's Day, just a few days before his death. Rev. Fred Greco has posted the message on his site: http://www.tulipfaith.com/

Sartelle's book is ok as an icebreaker, but it really seems primarily focused on explaining the practice of infant baptism to those who are already in paedobaptist churches and does not address the mode of baptism. Most Presbyterians don't see mode as that big of a deal but it's perhaps as much or more an issue for Baptists as is the question of recipients. George W. Marston's _Biblical Baptism_ (Originally titled more provacatively as "Are you a Biblical Baptist") is perhaps the best short introduction that covers all the bases, along with the Schaeffer article that I mentioned earlier. Marston's little book is often found in the book/tract rack at Presbyterian churches. This article by a former pastor of mine is what really got me thinking about the issue. The little book _The Meaning and Mode of Baptism_ by Jay Adams was helpful to me in seeing that the Bible does not teach immersion. 

If you can both talk to Pastor Hobbs, I think that is the best solution.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Have him read William the Baptist.
> 
> I'm not suggesting it as a cure all but it deals with a somewhat similar situation.



Joshua the Baptist, have you heeded the advice of that publication and now become Joshua the Presbyterian?


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 1, 2006)

After all the advice, counsel, kind words, etc...

When you decide to give your heart and life to this kind gentleman (if you do), _you,_ dear girl, are the one who must afterward comply in many areas where you would otherwise prefer to do differently. You must do so for the sake of peace, harmony, adorning the gospel, and the well-being of your family.

If he's still not willing to see your newborn baby baptized, for example, don't force that issue to a head. You accepted that potential outcome when you said "I do." You agreed to follow him and to bring the family to the house of God, together, even to a loosey-goosey church (if it was that bad) when you vowed yourself to him. If the children experience a deficit, you will have even more incentive to catechize them and add to their training in righteousness.

You may be able to win him over, to see him grow spiritually, _without a word_ as Peter so graciously puts it (1 Pet. 3:1). But heed the remainder of that verse: submit to him. Though "not obeying the Word" is ultimately meant in the "total" sense of not being a Christian, one can "not obey the Word" by resisting the Spirit in sanctification, just as much as in regeneration. But success is not to be found in assuming evident spiritual leadership, or asserting yourself in an ungodly way.

Don't short-sell the power you will have, either. Wives exert an uncommon degree of influence over their husbands, even (or especially) when they follow God's guidelines. But it is the influence of deep currents, of gravity, of things not often visible.

I trust that you are receiving good pre-marriage counsel, from one of your pastors. It is good to go over things systematically, and over several weeks or even a couple months. So many engaged pairs assume too much, and have too much confidence in their own natural judgment, that they discount this step. (I'm not saying that you are, but it is a common failing.) If I were you, I would insist on going to the pastor that _you_ had the greatest confidence in. Because you are the one with the most "freedom" to lose. You are the one volunteering to submit.


God's richest blessings on your marriage,


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## fredtgreco (Jun 1, 2006)

Ashley,

I am glad if you had the privilege of meeting Matt Baugh. He was a good friend and a faithful minister of the gospel. We all miss him very much. If you remember, please pray for his family and the church in Tchula.

I have discussed this subject on several occasions on the board, and had several situations like this in my ministry in Ohio. It is becoming exceedingly more common to have situations like this, as Bible-believing baptists and presbyterians take common cause against a hostile culture, increasingly apostate visible church, and rising sacerdotalism. Some initial thoughts that I have:

1. Differences over baptism are not so great as to prevent a marriage, or to presage disaster.

2. Acrimonious differences and arguments, over even small matters, can place a _tremendous_ strain on any marriage.

3. You and your husband (whoever that might be) should consider it a first-priority item to be in an acceptable church. It is, in my opinion, more important than what house, what job, what town, etc... Your spiritual well being affects your marital well being more than anything else.

4. Marriage involves both cleaving *and leaving*. You need to ask your fiance what he would do if his parents objected to a church move -- ANY move. What if you found a different, better baptist church? A good church that was much closer to your new home, etc. Get at the principle here, not just the specific item right now.

5. The wife in the marriage must submit to the husband. But that submission does not mean hiding in a corner and not giving godly advice. I *count on* my wife giving me advice, and challenging my thoughts (privately, not publicly) to make sure that I have thought through all possible issues. The man who makes any decision without seeing if his thought process stands up to scrutiny (whether in the home, or at work with collegues, or in the church) is a fool. So you should make sure your fiance has thought through the issues. But do not lay down ultimata.

I am finding more and more baptist churches moving away from the historical baptist position that non-credobaptist non-immersed believers cannot be members of take communion. Phillip Way's church is an example of that.

I would also advise strongly *against* trying to find a "magic bullet." For example, _William the Baptist_ is a very good work, but it is limited by scope, style, etc. I know some who have been quickly convinced by it, and others who rejected it outright, but were convinced by something else. There are many things to look at, listen to, etc. It is also possible that your fiance may never be convinced. You need to go into the marriage assuming that he will not change. To do otherwise is foolish and headed for a problem. (By the way, he should not assume that he can change you in all sorts of ways either!) For me, the change came as a direct result of finding out my wife was pregnant, and having to deal with the practical implications from that.

Above all else, I most strongly advise you to get counsel from your pastor and elders - they know you best, and they are God's gift to you, not internet blogging or message boards.

I'll pray for you.


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## ServantOfKing (Jun 1, 2006)

Thank you all so so much. I definitely think a meeting with Pastor Hobbs is on the way. On the subject of Matt, I never had the chance to personally meet him, but we always prayed for him and his family. 
I understand that these boards are just for conversation and mutual edification and that we definitely need the oversight and shepherding of our pastor & elders! It is helpful for me though to get opinions and advice of likeminded believers!


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## Pilgrim (Jun 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



Although I was never formally affiliated with a Baptist church (mainly because the one I attended did not have formal membership), I was basically a Baptist theologically for about 5-6 years following my conversion in 1999. Leaving the church I had been attending and not finding a baptistic one to my liking, I started thinking about the issue in late 2003 and was on the fence and kept flip-flopping back and forth for about 2 1/2 years. I think it was Jay Adams little book that finally got me off the fence because until then I had not done a lot of thinking on the mode of baptism. Other than one short period of doubt around the beginning of this year, I have basically considered myself a Presbyterian since reading it. 

I think you'll probably find that many who "converted" to Presbyterianism have different things that convinced them. As others have said, articles and arguments that one finds convincing will only harden others in their opposing view. For example, I don't think Sartelle's book is likely to convince a Baptist who knows why he's a Baptist. But of course that's not the audience Sartelle seems to have had in mind. 

I could write a lot more about what my issues were exactly and how they were put to rest, but that would probably need to be in another thread, perhaps one where members discuss how they started with baptistic beliefs and came to a Reformed paedobaptist position. 

I believe part of my problem was in not thinking things through seriously for a good while, so you are right not to be rash. I also failed to give the OPC a chance for a long time and I was also remiss in relying almost solely on the internet instead of discussing these things with pastors and believers in my local area, which in retrospect would have been much more profitable and would probably have thrown more light on the issues more quickly. I do know that misconceptions about the OPC church here would have been cleared up a lot sooner had I met with the pastor and elders and discussed the issues instead of making assumptions.


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## Ivan (Jun 1, 2006)

I like the idea of attending Sproul's church. That might get me to switch! :bigsmile:


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## Puritanhead (Jun 1, 2006)

Goto the Free Presbyterian Church, where baptism doctrine is up to conscious... and then decide with a coin toss for each child you have, as to whether that child will get a plunge or a sprinkling.
:bigsmile:

Oh-- whenever it comes up TAILS first for paedo-baptism, then I recommend deciding on the basis of best two out of three tosses.


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## ServantOfKing (Jun 1, 2006)




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## Larry Hughes (Jun 1, 2006)

Josh,

That's very wise, your approach. That's exactly the way I did it so as to not fall into the "your following a man's" teaching trap. I have a close brother, my closest friend, that is just beginning to wrestle with the issue similar to you. I try to be careful and not force myself toward his thinking but answer the questions as they come, I know how it is, it may be hard to believe but I was once very very baptistic myself.

But I pray you truth in this matter as I do for all my brothers in the faith and for myself. I think that's the best way to pray for help from God without "instructing God" as to how it should exactly happen and not 'change them to my thinking' so I can say I told you so, if not only in my own thoughts. But rather bring us all to the truth so that we with them and they with us may be strengthened in the glorious Gospel to which this baptism points and praise Christ alone as one.

My own journey, without details, never started with the infant issue, though it necessarily went there. But rather with the Gospel itself. In that sense I had a different path than some.

Yours in Christ alone,

Larry


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## Larry Hughes (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm not offering Ashley advice here, because I'm neither her father or pastor, but asking for myself as I have daughters and in the future to come in Americas Christian climate who knows what I might have to face answering. 

And this would be a question mainly for pastors/elders. And I'm not trying to set up a polemic debate just understand a point in the WCF, of which I adhere so I'LL understand rightly myself. So I'm purely in the student position on this one and asking honestly.

How can one give the OK to marry a credo man, paedeo daughter, if the WCF says to not baptize one's children is a great sin? Would that not be setting the woman up for potentially doing that sans in conversion on the man's part?

And please this is not a polemic or anger thing toward baptist brothers, but a real question as to 'how ridgid is the baptism issue on this?' 

And I come at baptism from its a Gospel sign first and only, so I'm not trying to set up a legalism for baptism. The protection is the Gospel in my thinking here.

I've thought this as any good father might and wrestle withit, albeit totally hypothetical for my situation.

Thanks in advance for the wise councel,

Ldh


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## ServantOfKing (Jul 23, 2006)

*Update...*

I just wanted to put a little update on here, in much thanks to those who offered wise words of wisdom! 

After exhaustive conversation on this issue, talking with some close friends, talking to our parents, talking to my RUF campus minister, us both reading lots of material on the subject, some things happening at the old church which have put up red flags for him, and after visiting a wonderful PCA church in the area where we will be living...
He has decided that once we are married, we will then seek out a new church. He has also done reading on the baptism issue and we are in agreement. Of course there are still some small issues we are not in full agreement on, but none so great that we cannot work through them. :bigsmile:

We will be starting our pre-marriage counseling soon with our RUF campus minister and I trust much of this will be discussed in more detail. I am learning more and more that submission is difficult, but that God richly blesses obedience in this area. 

This is still something we will be working through for the next 5-6 months, especially as we leave the old church (which we want to do graciously and lovingly) and seek to join ourselves to another local body. 

God is so good! 

[Edited on 7-24-2006 by ServantOfKing]


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## Larry Hughes (Jul 23, 2006)

Ashley,

I am truly happy for you and your betrothed! I know it's an over used phrase and often improperly but God does indeed work in ways far far far way above us all.

Much Blessings In Christ Alone,

Ldh


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## Romans922 (Jul 24, 2006)

Plans fail for lack of counsel.


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## Dave L (Jul 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> How can one give the OK to marry a credo man, paedeo daughter, if the WCF says to not baptize one's children is a great sin? Would that not be setting the woman up for potentially doing that sans in conversion on the man's part?
> 
> And please this is not a polemic or anger thing toward baptist brothers, but a real question as to 'how ridgid is the baptism issue on this?'
> ...



Of course, the reverse position also needs considering.

What is the position of a credo-baptism father if his daughter marries a paedo-baptist - taking as a given that she will follow her husband's lead in the baptism of any children they have?

From a simply practical point of view I think both fathers have to be very careful not to alienate the couple by the WAY they express their opinions.

I think the phrase "But he's a heretic, dear" should be excised from your mind before any conversation! 

And of course, your wife's opinion must be sought - no sense causing problems in your own marriage, is there?

Have any of the fathers here actually gone through this situation? Or have any of the pastors here had to counsel families in this position? If so, how did you approach the issues involved, and how was the dilemma resolved?


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## Larry Hughes (Jul 24, 2006)

David,

The use of the term "heretic" is hyperbolic, no one is using that here. One can and does sin without being a rank heretic. My wife's opinion is stronger than my own on this and she grew up baptistic.

But herein lies the difference, the paedeo father and daughter relationship is such that she will obey her father's wishes, to not do so even if the guy is as swell as they come would be a great sin. I realize this rubs against America's rank individualism at all cost, but then the disintegration of the family has never in all of history been higher than in modern America and modern American "christianity". Therein lies the crucial difference in covenant family and individualistic decissionism.


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## Dave L (Jul 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> David,
> 
> The use of the term "heretic" is hyperbolic, no one is using that here. One can and does sin without being a rank heretic. My wife's opinion is stronger than my own on this and she grew up baptistic.
> ...



Firstly, I'm sorry if I implied that anyone here was using the word heretic. I did put a smiley after the comment to try and suggest a note of humour. I was referring the comment to fathers of both persuasions, by the way.

Secondly, I'm not American, but I do recognize the "rank individualism" you mention.

Thirdly, are you saying that the difference between a credo and paedo-baptist family is that the paedo girl will obey her father's wishes but the credo girl won't, simply because of the differences between the two systems?

Sorry for asking for the clarification, but I'd like to get straight what you're actually saying before I respond to it.

Thanks.

[Edited on 25-7-2006 by Dave L]

[Edited on 25-7-2006 by Dave L]


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## Larry Hughes (Jul 25, 2006)

The answer is no, it was in reference to rank American individulism that pregnants American religiousity and particular to certain Christian culture over here independant of baptistic belief, that's all. Sorry I was unclear about that, my fault.

Anyway, thanks, I'm just not in the mood today for wrangling words, mine or yours (it has nothing to do with you, don't take it that way, you know how it is when your struggling and despairing). I just had a childhood friend who suffer a sudden death from massive cancer (one month from finding to death) at the age of 42 leaving behind three kids and a wife, and his parents.

Peace and blessings brother,

Larry


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## Dave L (Jul 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Anyway, thanks, I'm just not in the mood today for wrangling words, mine or yours (it has nothing to do with you, don't take it that way, you know how it is when your struggling and despairing). I just had a childhood friend who suffer a sudden death from massive cancer (one month from finding to death) at the age of 42 leaving behind three kids and a wife, and his parents.
> 
> Peace and blessings brother,
> ...



Thanks for clearing that up.

Sorry to hear of your loss.


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