# Matt Maher is Roman Catholic???



## thistle93

One of my favorite new songs out there is one by Matt Maher entitled "Lord, I Need You".

In case you are not familiar with it here are the words: 
Lord, I come, I confess
Bowing here I find my rest
Without You I fall apart
You're the One that guides my heart

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

Where sin runs deep Your grace is more
Where grace is found is where You are
And where You are, Lord, I am free
Holiness is Christ in me

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

Teach my song to rise to You
When temptation comes my way
And when I cannot stand I'll fall on You
Jesus, You're my hope and stay

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

You're my one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You 

So I was shocked to find out that Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic. This does not seem like Roman Catholic doctrine to me. I think this sounds a lot like reformed doctrine. While Roman doctrine is not becoming more reformed or evangelical do you think that some individual Roman Catholics are and if so why stay Roman Catholic? 

For His Glory-
Matthew


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## JML

I have found that with most CCM music, artists will sing whatever they think will sell regardless of how Biblical the doctrine. So it does not surprise me that a Catholic would sing that song.


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## hammondjones

I read an interview where he said that he raises his child half the time Catholic, half the time Methodist, and that he was saved through the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement. It might lead to you wonder if he quite understands what the fuss is all about.

He also co-wrote "Your Grace is Enough" with Chris Tomlin. I guess for him that really means "Your Grace is Enough for Me.... to Obtain the Joy of Heaven, Which is God's Eternal Reward for the Good Works Accomplished with the Grace of Christ."


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## Jake

John Lanier said:


> I have found that with most CCM music, artists will sing whatever they think will sell regardless of how Biblical the doctrine. So it does not surprise me that a Catholic would sing that song.



I cannot speak for Matt Maher, but there has been some suspicious stuff in that regard with the non-Trinitarian Phillips, Craig, & Dean: Alpha&Omega Ministries: PCD


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## Ephrata

It may be possible that he was raised Roman Catholic, yet has actually read the Bible. The Lord may have used it to change his heart and his doctrine from the usual dogmas, although he still labels himself as a Catholic out of convenience or ignorance. I've seen a few precious souls who have done so, even though their theology is actually very Reformed. It's confusing, but heartening.


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## Jake

Ephrata said:


> It may be possible that he was raised Roman Catholic, yet has actually read the Bible. The Lord may have used it to change his heart and his doctrine from the usual dogmas, although he still labels himself as a Catholic out of convenience or ignorance. I've seen a few precious souls who have done so, even though their theology is actually very Reformed. It's confusing, but heartening.



It seems as though (at least within the past five years) he is an active part of the Romanist Church. 
Matt Maher Interview


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## JML

Nonetheless, I was disappointed to hear this. He does have a great voice and is a talented musician.


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## Ken_lamb

Matt Maher and Audrey Asad attend a "bible believing" Catholic Church here in Arizona. 

I don't doubt his sincerity, but I suspect there are some doctrinal issues nonetheless. 

A dear friend of mine is deeply involved in an ecumenical movement here in AZ that is trying to bring together believers under the broad umbrella of the Apostles Creed, including Catholics and other denominations that I would consider to have abandoned God's word. Both Matt Maher and Audrey Asad have led worship there and I admit that I was moved. 

I appreciate their call for Christian unity, but early on had concerns about the broad basis of that unity. I pray that God will bring correct discernment in such matters. Someone is right and someone is wrong, I pray that we find ourselves in agreeance with God, rather than men.


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## Hemustincrease

He is both Catholic and ecumenical. CCM bands/musicians are all either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome. (Is it possible to hold to the truth of Scripture and have anything to do with CCM, let alone be smack in the middle of it??? I would say emphatically ‘no’.)


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## kodos

I am as EP as it comes (in worship) - but can it really be proven that CCM bands are "either Catholic" or "perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome"? That seems like a pretty severe and serious charge. I don't even listen to the stuff, but that sounds like it might be too broad of a brush.



Hemustincrease said:


> He is both Catholic and ecumenical. CCM bands/musicians are all either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome. (Is it possible to hold to the truth of Scripture and have anything to do with CCM, let alone be smack in the middle of it??? I would say emphatically ‘no’.)


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## Hemustincrease

kodos said:


> I am as EP as it comes (in worship) - but can it really be proven that CCM bands are "either Catholic" or "perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome"? That seems like a pretty severe and serious charge. I don't even listen to the stuff, but that sounds like it might be too broad of a brush.
> 
> 
> 
> Hemustincrease said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is both Catholic and ecumenical. CCM bands/musicians are all either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome. (Is it possible to hold to the truth of Scripture and have anything to do with CCM, let alone be smack in the middle of it??? I would say emphatically ‘no’.)
Click to expand...



If anybody is able to provide evidence of a CCM musician who is not involved (in some kind of supportive/approving/condoning manner) with Catholics (as well as various other heresies), I’ll happily retract my statement and replace it with ‘all CCM bands/musicians except.........., are either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to support the teaching of Rome.’


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## Hamalas

I think we'd have to define what qualifies someone as a "CCM musician" first.


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## Hemustincrease

Matt Maher: Building the One-World Church Through Music | CCM



> David Wang says Maher is “one of the most successful Catholic artists to cross over into mainstream Christian rock and find an audience among evangelicals” (“Catholic Rocker Matt Maher,” Religion News Service, May 17, 2013).





> Maher, who tours with non-Catholics, comments:
> 
> “What’s fantastic about it is we’re all Christians from different denominations and we’re learning to understand each other. It just means that we’re writing about mysteries that we don’t fully understand.”





> Maher is on the board of directors for the Catholic youth organization Life Teen.
> 
> He calls himself a “musical missionary,” a missionary for Rome, that is. Christianity Today says “Maher is bringing his music--and a dream of unity into the Protestant church” (“Common Bonds,” CT, Oct. 27, 2009). He says, “I’ve had co-writing sessions with Protestants where we had that common denominator, and I’ve seen in a very radical way the real possibility of unity.” He says, “I look at it like the Catholic church is my immediate family, and all my friends from different denominations are extended family.”


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## kodos

Fortunately, I do not believe that is the standard of proof required by the 9th commandment.



Hemustincrease said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am as EP as it comes (in worship) - but can it really be proven that CCM bands are "either Catholic" or "perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome"? That seems like a pretty severe and serious charge. I don't even listen to the stuff, but that sounds like it might be too broad of a brush.
> 
> 
> 
> Hemustincrease said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is both Catholic and ecumenical. CCM bands/musicians are all either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to approve the teaching of Rome. (Is it possible to hold to the truth of Scripture and have anything to do with CCM, let alone be smack in the middle of it??? I would say emphatically ‘no’.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If anybody is able to provide evidence of a CCM musician who is not involved (in some kind of supportive/approving/condoning manner) with Catholics (as well as various other heresies), I’ll happily retract my statement and replace it with ‘all CCM bands/musicians except.........., are either Catholic themselves or perfectly content to support the teaching of Rome.’
Click to expand...


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## Hemustincrease

Hamalas said:


> I think we'd have to define what qualifies someone as a "CCM musician" first.



This seems to me to be a good definition. Or at least a good assessment of the characteristics which CCM music (and by default the musicians) all share in common.



> 1. Contemporary Christian Music is worldly music.
> 
> 2. Contemporary Christian Music is ecumenical music.
> 
> 3. Contemporary Christian Music is charismatic music.
> 
> 4. Contemporary Christian Music weakens the fundamentalist stance of a church.



This definition was taken from the following page. David Cloud might not be Calvinist, but he hits the nail on the head when it comes to CCM (In my humble opinion). 
Why We Are Opposed to CCM


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## Hemustincrease

> Fortunately, I do not believe that is the standard of proof required by the 9th commandment.


You suggested I was ‘broad brushing’. I don’t believe that I am. If you doubt the veracity of my statement then it surely behooves you to present some evidence to back that doubt up with.


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## Ken_lamb

Hemustincrease said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we'd have to define what qualifies someone as a "CCM musician" first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to me to be a good definition. Or at least a good assessment of the characteristics which CCM music (and by default the musicians) all share in common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Contemporary Christian Music is worldly music.
> 
> 2. Contemporary Christian Music is ecumenical music.
> 
> 3. Contemporary Christian Music is charismatic music.
> 
> 4. Contemporary Christian Music weakens the fundamentalist stance of a church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This definition was taken from the following page. David Cloud might not be Calvinist, but he hits the nail on the head when it comes to CCM (In my humble opinion).
> Why We Are Opposed to CCM
Click to expand...


Please define music that is not of this world. 

Is it ecumenical by definition or by tendency?

In what way is ccm music charismatic? Speaking in tongues, prophecy, faith healing? Is it because it is passionate? What about classical music?

The fourth point would seen contingent on the validity of the other points, since no further description is provided.


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## Hemustincrease

Ken_lamb said:


> Hemustincrease said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we'd have to define what qualifies someone as a "CCM musician" first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to me to be a good definition. Or at least a good assessment of the characteristics which CCM music (and by default the musicians) all share in common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Contemporary Christian Music is worldly music.
> 
> 2. Contemporary Christian Music is ecumenical music.
> 
> 3. Contemporary Christian Music is charismatic music.
> 
> 4. Contemporary Christian Music weakens the fundamentalist stance of a church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This definition was taken from the following page. David Cloud might not be Calvinist, but he hits the nail on the head when it comes to CCM (In my humble opinion).
> Why We Are Opposed to CCM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please define music that is not of this world.
> 
> Is it ecumenical by definition or by tendency?
> 
> In what way is ccm music charismatic? Speaking in tongues, prophecy, faith healing? Is it because it is passionate? What about classical music?
> 
> The fourth point would seen contingent on the validity of the other points, since no further description is provided.
Click to expand...


The link I shared answers all your questions.


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## Ken_lamb

> Hemustincrease said:
> 
> 
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> kodos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, I do not believe that is the standard of proof required by the 9th commandment.
> 
> 
> 
> You suggested I was ‘broad brushing’. I don’t believe that I am. If you doubt the veracity of my statement then it surely behooves you to present some evidence to back that doubt up with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jo, while I appreciate your distaste for CCM generally -and I'm confident my brother Rom does as well- the onus would not be on us to prove that everyone who might be associated with the undefinable genre that is _CCM_ is _not_ RC friendly. Rather, the onus would be on you, who says that each and every one of them is, to prove such.
Click to expand...


I agree.


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## Hemustincrease

> Hemustincrease said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> kodos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, I do not believe that is the standard of proof required by the 9th commandment.
> 
> 
> 
> You suggested I was ‘broad brushing’. I don’t believe that I am. If you doubt the veracity of my statement then it surely behooves you to present some evidence to back that doubt up with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jo, while I appreciate your distaste for CCM generally -and I'm confident my brother Rom does as well- the onus would not be on us to prove that everyone who might be associated with that undefinable genre that is _CCM_ is _not_ RC friendly. Rather, the onus would be on you, who says that each and every one of them is, to prove such.
Click to expand...


Perhaps so (I concede) but surely it would be far less time and thread consuming, for those who doubt what I have said, to just come up with one CCM band/musician who is positively not affiliated in anyway with Catholics? It would require page after page after page for me to list every single CCM musician and demonstrate their affiliation with Catholics.


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## kodos

The point of God's commandments isn't for our convenience. It is for the good of His People, and their protection. Particularly those who might be unfairly slandered by our accusations. I know there are many even on this board who have mentioned a deep appreciation for Calvinist Christian Rap artists (I am not a fan of rap as a genre, so again I have no comment on their music). And these phrases being used "affiliated in any way" are exceedingly broad and can be distorted quite readily. I have Catholic friends, are are my in-laws, am I now suddenly someone "affiliated with Catholics"?

I say this as one who is guilty, even daily, of breaking the 9th commandment . Look at how an accusation must be received against someone in Scripture. And an accusation of being Catholic, or in league to further the aims of the Roman Church is to say that one is in league with those who promote a false gospel, and are actively attempting to work against it and are therefore accursed. Serious allegations indeed, so we should try to temper ourselves when it comes to that sort of rhetoric.

(And Josh is right, I share no love for CCM  )


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## Hemustincrease

kodos said:


> And an accusation of being Catholic, or in league to further the aims of the Roman Church is to say that one is in league with those who promote a false gospel, and are actively attempting to work against it and are therefore accursed. Serious allegations indeed, so we should try to temper ourselves when it comes to that sort of rhetoric.



I agree. These things are indeed very serious. I was perhaps not wise to make such a dogmatic and all encompassing statement. For the sake of the thread and ease of understanding all comments, I won’t go back and erase it. But I will offer a retraction of it here. 

That said, I also remain convinced in my own mind, that CCM is something believers should be opposing, for the reasons already shared (which certainly include the affiliation with Catholic heresy).


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## Ken_lamb

I will confess that early in my walk, I found much comfort in various Christian music that I found on the radio. It played a role in softening my heart as I was very deep in despair. I did eventually confess my sins and repent and trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. 

After about 6 years of attending non-denominational mega churchs with rock band worship, I now find myself in a small liturgical PCA church. 

I can't say theoretically what could have or should have happened, I just know the path that God used to bring me to Christian orthodoxy involved CCM and mega churches. 

Today however, I rarely listen to CCM and I am very pleased with the reverent worship of my new church. 

Now I'm not suggesting that we start off all new believers on KLOVE and send them all to mega churches until they are ready for real meat and Christian orthodoxy, I'm just saying how it worked for me.

I do however listen to quite a bit of Indelible Grace Music, which is a ministry of Reformed University Fellowship, and incorporates old hymns to more contemporary music. I also listen to some reformed hip hop artists such as Shai Linne and iSix:5. Though I would never consider them forms of personal or corporate worship.


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## kodos

Hemustincrease said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> 
> And an accusation of being Catholic, or in league to further the aims of the Roman Church is to say that one is in league with those who promote a false gospel, and are actively attempting to work against it and are therefore accursed. Serious allegations indeed, so we should try to temper ourselves when it comes to that sort of rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. These things are indeed very serious. I was perhaps not wise to make such a dogmatic and all encompassing statement. For the sake of the thread and ease of understanding all comments, I won’t go back and erase it. But I will offer a retraction of it here.
Click to expand...


Is it not so wonderful that we as Christians can have these conversations with charity, grace, love and understanding? I look at the interactions we have here on this board, and then contrast it with those boards that I am on that do not know God, and I always reflect upon how wonderful it is to be one of God's Own! Much love in Christ to you, sister


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## Free Christian

Hello Mathew. Many bands today incorporate Christian themes into their music. A few years ago someone released a song that sounded like the person was saved, my wife commented "is he saved now?" His next release proved otherwise. On another thread I stated how the SDA's now use references to being in lineage to the Reformers. One could be forgiven if they were none the wiser to their true background into thinking they were right on track if they heard some single sermons where these references are made where in fact they are very far from it. Songs can be the same.


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## ZackF

How things have changed since the mid-90's when Rich Mullins put off conversion to Rome being afraid of losing recording contracts. He ended up dying before he entered the RCC. His RCC spiritual advisor was my pastor at the time.


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## Hamalas

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...? 

I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.


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## ZackF

Hamalas said:


> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.




Of course. It is about discernment and realizing the CCM is a movement and not a church under authority. Despite Mullins' intentions late in his life, most all of his music was solid and I still enjoy listening to it.


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## Hamalas

KS_Presby said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. It is about discernment and realizing the CCM is a movement and not a church under authority. Despite Mullins' intentions late in his life, most all of his music was solid and I still enjoy listening to it.
Click to expand...


Agreed. And just so you know, my comment was not in response to your post brother.


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## Jeri Tanner

I'm really going to stick my neck out on this one, but it's ok because I'm old, and I'm an old musician, and I'm an old musician songwriter/performer who cut my "Christian songwriter" teeth on the precursor to CCM (Jesus music), and then continued on through the beginnings and early growth of CCM. I can tell you for a fact that the roots of the CCM tree are charismatic; by its nature it's friendly to like-minded entities (therefore to Rome). The Jesus music was birthed in the womb of the charismatic youth movement (Calvary Church in Costa Mesa). With it came the widespread practice of speaking in tongues and many varieties of direct revelation and mysticism (everybody was reading Watchman Nee!). The music was the vehicle that moved all this along! All the way to my little Southern Baptist church in Alabama in 1973. So I don't think Jo's views on the nature and leanings of CCM come out of nowhere. It doesn't mean that there are not sincere Christians who are writing and recording this type of music; but the entity itself is surely one that is largely friendly to charismatic/mystical leanings. It's really a fascinating subject. I realize that there is the valid question of who is and who is not part of this CCM industry—broadly speaking, those in the industry tend to be the artists who are promoted for radio play and who who aim to have their songs place high on the CCLI ratings to be used by churches for worship. That's just a quick, general and incomplete statement about this entity we're speaking of.


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## Hemustincrease

Hamalas said:


> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?



"In July 2012, the Gettys joined Townend and Roman Catholic Matt Maher on NewsongCafe on WorshipTogether.com. They played and discussed “The Power of the Cross,” which was co-written by Getty-Townend. The 10-minute program promoted ecumenical unity, with Maher/Townend/Getty entirely one in the spirit through the music. Major doctrinal differences are so meaningless that they are not even mentioned. Spiritual abominations such as papal supremacy, the mass, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and Mariolatry were entirely ignored. Jude 3 was despised and Romans 16:17 completely disobeyed for the sake of building the one-world church through contemporary Christian music."

I’m keeping well clear of anything which tends towards promoting the kind of ‘unity’ our Lord abhors. There is no ‘baby’ to throw out so far as CCM is concerned (in my opinion). There is only mucky bathwater.


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## Hamalas

Hemustincrease said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "In July 2012, the Gettys joined Townend and Roman Catholic Matt Maher on NewsongCafe on WorshipTogether.com. They played and discussed “The Power of the Cross,” which was co-written by Getty-Townend. The 10-minute program promoted ecumenical unity, with Maher/Townend/Getty entirely one in the spirit through the music. Major doctrinal differences are so meaningless that they are not even mentioned. Spiritual abominations such as papal supremacy, the mass, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and Mariolatry were entirely ignored. Jude 3 was despised and Romans 16:17 completely disobeyed for the sake of building the one-world church through contemporary Christian music."
> 
> I’m keeping well clear of anything which tends towards promoting the kind of ‘unity’ our Lord abhors. There is no ‘baby’ to throw out so far as CCM is concerned (in my opinion). There is only mucky bathwater.
Click to expand...


Jo, I'm not interested in being the advocate for CCM as a movement or for CCM artists individually. However, the teaching of Scripture require a higher standard of proof than the "guilt-by-association" and "genetic fallacy" arguments I'm reading here. If there are particular artists who need to be called out, by all means lets do so. If the movement as a whole has tendencies or a history that should be of concern as Jeri so rightly pointed out, then let's talk about that! But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise. The ruminations of the fundamentalist Baptist Bob Jones Brother Cloud aside, I think a more nuanced and even handed approach is required.

Also, you picked one couple off of my list. What of the other artists I mentioned? Are they all closet papists as well? I also wonder what "joining hands with so and so" actually means. If we want to talk about statements of doctrine then by all means lets address that. But if joining hands simply means attending the same conference, working with, or having a conversation with Roman Catholics, Charismatics etc... then there are many more godly Pastors and theologians who must be condemned. I guess John Piper should be viewed as a false teacher because he *gasp* has Charismatic friends. I suppose we should excommunicate our brother on the PB who recently preached at a liberal Episcopalian service as a means of proclaiming the gospel in a dark place. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative or to paint you in a dark light. But I do want to suggest that taking these views to their logical conclusions brings us someplace we don't want to go. Just a few thoughts.


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## kodos

Not to mention that the quote in question calls "infant baptism" a "Spiritual abomination", so you might as well lump us Presbyterians into outer darkness as well 

Jo, do you cast these stones at people who sing or listen to Hymns? If so, you may want to check out some of the writers of those hymns and their theology as well. You may be shocked.


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## Hemustincrease

Hamalas said:


> But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise.



Ben, I believe I have already answered Rom and Joshua with regards to this. 

As to being ‘even handed’........what exactly do you mean by that? If something is heavily weighted in one direction, what would you suggest I put on the scales to even it all out a bit? 

All the other artists you mentioned, along with any other you could bring up, can be easily researched by us all. It isn’t without significance that I am yet to come across a website of any CCM band/artist etc which plainly presents the Gospel and/or clearly stands against false teaching. I could be a JW, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Charismatic or even a Muslim and visit their sites without feeling any or much offense. Perhaps the response to that would be “well, we don’t all present the Gospel in our workplaces etc, so why should they?” or something similar. However, they are claiming to be working ‘for Christ’ and ‘for the Gospel’ so surely they must make it very, very clear exactly what they believe and what ‘Gospel’ and which ‘Christ’ it is they are serving!


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## Hemustincrease

kodos said:


> Jo, do you cast these stones at people who sing or listen to Hymns? If so, you may want to check out some of the writers of those hymns and their theology as well. You may be shocked.



Ouch! 

I don’t believe I have cast any stones in this thread and to be honest, I find your comment a tad hurtful.

This thread is about CCM, Matt Maher in particular. I am not ignorant with regards to the theology of hymn writers outside of CCM, however that is not up for discussion on this thread.


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## Jeri Tanner

Jo, you are stout-hearted and I appreciate it, and know these brothers do too! I didn't mean to stir things up again, if I did. It is fair to point to the history of the CCM movement, look at the doctrine and theology of each writer and artist (both within and without CCM), and ponder together what it all means in the light of God's prescriptive word. I'm learning to care about these things while at the same time taking care to make the purity of the church and the church's singing together a matter of prayer, and to trust the great Head of the church with it. And sometimes comment.  David Cloud may not be the best resource to point people to—he's good at pointing out problems with CCM, but I don't think he has biblical solutions. I know the Lord, through his providential dealings and through the prayers and efforts and willingness of his people, will sort it all out. I do understand and share the concerns you've mentioned. I do believe, as many others have said, that music has been instrumental (historically) in periods of downgrade in the church.


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## Hemustincrease

Jeri Tanner said:


> Jo, you are stout-hearted and I appreciate it, and know these brothers do too! I didn't mean to stir things up again, if I did. It is fair to point to the history of the CCM movement, look at the doctrine and theology of each writer and artist (both within and without CCM), and ponder together what it all means in the light of God's prescriptive word. I'm learning to care about these things while at the same time taking care to make the purity of the church and the church's singing together a matter of prayer, and to trust the great Head of the church with it. And sometimes comment.  David Cloud may not be the best resource to point people to—he's good at pointing out problems with CCM, but I don't think he has biblical solutions. I know the Lord, through his providential dealings and through the prayers and efforts and willingness of his people, will sort it all out. I do understand and share the concerns you've mentioned. I do believe, as many others have said, that music has been instrumental (historically) in periods of downgrade in the church.





I agree with you, insofar as David Cloud is concerned, but he appears to be the only cut and pastable resource out there on this subject (that I have found at any rate). He has so thoroughly examined the matter and documented those findings (of which I find very little to disagree with him on) that he has become somewhat of a ‘go to’ resource for me. Reformed men have of course spoken/written about CCM, but I have so far found that they either point their readers to David Cloud for the specifics (whilst noting his lack of Calvinistic beliefs) or speak far more generally, perhaps with an expectation that their readers truly ought to be able to discern the difference between the holy and the profane without them needing to spell it out for them. I’m just surmising of course. 

The history of the movement is indeed essential to understand. I absolutely agree with that. Anything ‘false’ needs to be uprooted rather than pruned to look pretty and if we don’t know the history, we cannot really expect to be able to properly discern the present fruit of it. Examining the doctrine and theology of each artist however, is somewhat easier said than done. Websites certainly don’t provide answers to even the most basic questions and examining lyrics alone cannot count as an examination of ‘fruit’ which is how our Lord said we would “know them”. There is one thing to be said in defense of David Cloud.........nobody leaves his website left wondering what it is he actually believes.


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## Ken_lamb

Reformed Rap Artist Shai Linne and Scott Anioli have been engaging in a musical analysis and debate of what constitutes God honoring music. I have found it both a little polarizing but also informative. There are moments when I think they are starting to come together in mutual understanding and then others when I think it sounds redundant like a broken record. If you at all interested, you might at least appreciate the analysis. 
http://religiousaffections.org/arti...t-christian-rap-with-shai-linne-introduction/

The connectivity of links is weird but here are the other posts. 

http://religiousaffections.org/?s=Shai+Linne&submit=Search


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## Jeri Tanner

Ken_lamb said:


> Reformed Rap Artist Shai Linne and Scott Anioli have been engaging in a musical analysis and debate of what constitutes God honoring music. I have found it both a little polarizing but also informative. There are moments when I think they are starting to come together in mutual understanding and then others when I think it sounds redundant like a broken record. If you at all interested, you might at least appreciate the analysis.
> Discussion about Christian rap with Shai Linne: Introduction | Conservative Christianity, Worship, Culture, Aesthetics – Religious Affections Ministries
> 
> The connectivity of links is weird but here are the other posts.
> 
> Search: Shai Linne | Conservative Christianity, Worship, Culture, Aesthetics – Religious Affections Ministries



Yes, I saw the debates publicized but have never had the mental toughness to read them; I believe to do so might bring on anxiety.  I appreciate both men and actually appreciate Shai Linne's music. I never understood whether their debate concerned what is appropriate for congregational singing, or if it concerned the appropriateness of the rap genre in general.


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## Ken_lamb

That's a very good point. I don't know that Shai Linne makes any attempt to lead worship with his music on Sunday, though from Scott's initial comments that sparked the debate, I understood him to be speaking broadly of music in general, not just worship music.


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## Free Christian

One thing that once concerned me with peoples songs they had written was once in a church I was attending I found out that the church was paying royalties for the singing, using the particular song or songs, in their church. They were paying yearly royalties for the use of them. Paying to sing a song to God did not sit right me. Meaning that some of my offerings were being used for that. How widespread this is I wonder?


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## JML

Free Christian said:


> One thing that once concerned me with peoples songs they had written was once in a church I was attending I found out that the church was paying royalties for the singing, using the particular song or songs, in their church. They were paying yearly royalties for the use of them. Paying to sing a song to God did not sit right me. Meaning that some of my offerings were being used for that. How widespread this is I wonder?



Very common here in the States. It is called Christian Copyright Licensing International (CCLI). Churches that sing modern CCM music are required to pay for it.


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## Free Christian

Paying to worship God. Now I understand paying to rent a hall or such, but in doing so one could rent it for anything. Paying for the power used etc.
But to charge someone for singing your song when in worship to God! "Oh, excuse me you guys sing a song I wrote when you worship God, money please!"


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## Ken_lamb

Yeah, the commercial aspect of Christian worship is bothersome to me as well.


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## Hamalas

Obviously, commercialization is a massive problem (especially here in the States) but to be fair we pay for Psalters and Hymnals as well. Receiving payment for lawful work done to the glory of God is no bad thing. Imagine if I criticized Carl Trueman, R.C. Sproul, or Joel Beeke because they charged me money to learn about God by reading their books or attending a conference.


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## Hamalas

Hemustincrease said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ben, I believe I have already answered Rom and Joshua with regards to this.
Click to expand...


Jo, I apologize. I had not seen that post until I went back and looked. 

If you're only arguing that CCM rests on a cracked foundation and that Christians should be wary of what they hear from CCM artists then you and I are in the same boat. The only noticeable exception I've found to that rule would be among Christian Hip-Hop artists many of whom are doctrinally sound and explicitly Calvinistic. But in many ways they stand in a different culture to the typical CCM artist. There's more I could say about these things but it's late here and I should head to bed. Blessings!


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## Ephrata

Hamalas said:


> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.



Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?

(Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)


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## Hamalas

Ephrata said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?
> 
> (Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)
Click to expand...


They wanted to change the words, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied" to say, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the _love of God was magnified_". Basically they aren't comfortable with Anselm's satisfaction theory of the atonement (and often reject penal substitution) they wanted to replace it with Abelard's view to emphasize the love of God. (If that didn't make much sense you can read this short piece: Theories of the Atonement by Leon Morris). It was pretty crazy, but I'm glad the Getty's stood firm.


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## Ephrata

Hamalas said:


> Ephrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?
> 
> I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?
> 
> (Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They wanted to change the words, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied" to say, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the _love of God was magnified_". Basically they aren't comfortable with Anselm's satisfaction theory of the atonement (and often reject penal substitution) they wanted to replace it with Abelard's view to emphasize the love of God. (If that didn't make much sense you can read this short piece: Theories of the Atonement by Leon Morris). It was pretty crazy, but I'm glad the Getty's stood firm.
Click to expand...


 Yeah, that's one way to make the Gospel anemic. Thank God He kept them strong on the issue. Thanks for the article-- it helped clarify some other views, as well.


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## TylerRay

thistle93 said:


> One of my favorite new songs out there is one by Matt Maher entitled "Lord, I Need You".
> 
> In case you are not familiar with it here are the words:
> Lord, I come, I confess
> Bowing here I find my rest
> Without You I fall apart
> You're the One that guides my heart
> 
> Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
> Every hour I need You
> My one defense, my righteousness
> Oh God, how I need You
> 
> Where sin runs deep Your grace is more
> Where grace is found is where You are
> And where You are, Lord, I am free
> Holiness is Christ in me
> 
> Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
> Every hour I need You
> My one defense, my righteousness
> Oh God, how I need You
> 
> Teach my song to rise to You
> When temptation comes my way
> And when I cannot stand I'll fall on You
> Jesus, You're my hope and stay
> 
> Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
> Every hour I need You
> My one defense, my righteousness
> Oh God, how I need You
> 
> You're my one defense, my righteousness
> Oh God, how I need You
> My one defense, my righteousness
> Oh God, how I need You
> 
> So I was shocked to find out that Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic. This does not seem like Roman Catholic doctrine to me. I think this sounds a lot like reformed doctrine. While Roman doctrine is not becoming more reformed or evangelical do you think that some individual Roman Catholics are and if so why stay Roman Catholic?
> 
> For His Glory-
> Matthew



The Roman Catholic Church has always used syncretism to win proselytes. In the past, they incorporated pagan practices into their worship to win pagans. Today (in the US, etc.) they are using CCM, new translations of the Bible based on a critical text, bible studies, youth groups, and the like to win broadly evangelical professors.


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## JSauer

Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic?! That's disappointing. I saw his song listed along with highly orthodox bands like Casting Crowns and Third Day in the Heaven Is For Real soundtrack at Barnes & Noble and now I have lost faith in contemporary Christian music. 

(This post is meant to be read in an extremely sarcastic voice)


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## Free Christian

Hamalas said:


> Obviously, commercialization is a massive problem (especially here in the States) but to be fair we pay for Psalters and Hymnals as well. Receiving payment for lawful work done to the glory of God is no bad thing. Imagine if I criticized Carl Trueman, R.C. Sproul, or Joel Beeke because they charged me money to learn about God by reading their books or attending a conference.


Hello Ben. Do you think that buying a book to read is the same as paying not only for the book but also for each time you read it out loud? Such as is done with these songs. The song book is bought and payed for but that is not enough, a yearly payment is now required for the singing of the songs they contain!
Do you pay a fee each time you read from R.C Sproul? Or each time you read from the Bible you payed for? Yes the Psalm books I sing from were brought, why not they had to be printed, but I do not have to pay a yearly fee to sing them! Nor a fee to read my Bible! The comparison you made doesn't fit.


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## Jeri Tanner

JSauer said:


> Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic?! That's disappointing. I saw his song listed along with highly orthodox bands like Casting Crowns and Third Day in the Heaven Is For Real soundtrack at Barnes & Noble and now I have lost faith in contemporary Christian music.
> 
> (This post is meant to be read in an extremely sarcastic voice)



Oh, dear, I thought you were kidding, but... you were not.


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