# Is a PCA church endorsing liberation theology?



## RamistThomist

It seems a woman minister (of sorts) is preaching (albeit not in church) a form of liberation theology in connection with the Black Lives Matter crowd. Is this the next step for some branches of the PCA?


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## Jake

Also, why does the seminary of the PCA offer M.Div's for women?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Some background for information

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...is-a-movement-on-mission-in-the-truth-of-god/



> InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (InterVarsity), an evangelical college ministry, is the co-sponsor of Urbana, a student missions conference held every three years. This year’s Urbana conference (Urbana 15), held in St. Louis, Missouri, runs December 27-31.
> 
> InterVarsity, an organization that does not shy away from social justice movements, devoted Urbana’s Monday evening session to #BlackLivesMatter. To kick off the night, the worship team took the stage donning Black Lives Matter t-shirts.
> 
> The keynote speaker was Michelle Higgins, director of Faith for Justice, a Christian advocacy group in St. Louis. Higgins, who is active in the #BlackLivesMatter movement in the St. Louis area, just miles from Ferguson, Missouri, challenged attendees to listen to stories of those who have experienced discrimination and to get involved.
> 
> In her address, Higgins said Christians have been willing to actively oppose issues like abortion, but not issues like racism and inequality that are more uncomfortable to address.



Michelle Higgins is on staff as Director of Worship at South City PCA in Saint Louis.


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## RamistThomist

I remember when the PCA (commendably) repented of "covenantal generational" sins like racism. Well and good. There were also measures of "doing more to address racial issues." That, too, is good. I then asked what exactly they planned to do? Nobody really gave concrete measures and a few were getting annoyed. My point is that if we don't have concrete action plans informed by the gospel (which involves saying more than "gospel" to any action plan), we won't be able to resist liberation theology.


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## Edward

ReformedReidian said:


> I then asked what exactly they planned to do?



Looks like you may be getting your answer. I never got on board with the 'apologize for what grandad did' movement, as I was afraid this might be where 'they' were headed with the long term plan. ('They' being not the public faces that were used for that initiative, but the folks instigating and planning).


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## Vox Oculi

A friend of mine left InterVarsity because of its social gospel emphasis. 

This is my first post. Can anyone explain how to post a new thread? Or do newbies not have the ability to do so?


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## lynnie

_Also, why does the seminary of the PCA offer M.Div's for women?_

Huh? Even WTS makes it an MAR. 

Does it just mean they completed the course of study...but they still teach that women are not to be ordained as elders and pastors? 

Learn something new every day at the PB....aaack.....


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## VictorBravo

Vox Oculi said:


> This is my first post. Can anyone explain how to post a new thread? Or do newbies not have the ability to do so?



PM being sent.


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## Jake

lynnie said:


> _Also, why does the seminary of the PCA offer M.Div's for women?_
> 
> Huh? Even WTS makes it an MAR.
> 
> Does it just mean they completed the course of study...but they still teach that women are not to be ordained as elders and pastors?
> 
> Learn something new every day at the PB....aaack.....



Not to side track too much, but it seemed relevant because this was a degree this teacher of liberation theology holds, but apparently Covenant Seminary makes a distinction between MDivs for Pastoral Ministry and "Specialized Ministry": https://www.covenantseminary.edu/academics/degrees/mdiv/ Only the latter admits women, I guess.


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## Jack K

When a non-ordained non-pastor gives a non-sermon talk at a non-church event, I am at a loss for why it necessarily spells disaster for the PCA. We might indeed have profitable discussions about the Black Lives Matter movement, liberation theology, the practice of allowing women a seminary education, or the practice of hiring women for non-pastoral leadership roles in local congregations. But it seems unnecessarily alarmist to put these pieces together and suggest the PCA is endorsing liberation theology.

So let me answer the original question with a resounding NO. When one of the many thousands of local church employees stands up at a non-church conference and says something that might sound a bit like something stemming from bad doctrine, it does NOT mean the denomination endorses the bad doctrine.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Well, it was during a worship service and was identified as a sermon/message by Urbana, which is not exactly a non-church event.


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## Romans922

And she called it preaching...don't forget Benjamin. And then she went to spew forth what is basically poop from her mouth. 

Yet it saddens me, I see PCA ministers reacting to it and saying, she is a 'faithful' member in good standing. Thus implying that she is not up for public scrutiny. And ministers calling anyone who critiques what she did as needing to repent. 

So not so much her spells disaster, it is what I see PCA ministers saying in response that spells disaster for the PCA. May God have mercy.


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## Edward

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> South City PCA in Saint Louis.



Only 4 of the officers at that church are women. Not clear if they are ordained or not.

http://www.southcitychurch.com/home/staff/


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## Jack K

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well, it was during a worship service and was identified as a sermon/message by Urbana, which is not exactly a non-church event.



Non-PCA event. So why do we blame the PCA if we don't like it? And Urbana is not a church anyway.


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## yeutter

Jack K said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it was during a worship service and was identified as a sermon/message by Urbana, which is not exactly a non-church event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Non-PCA event. So why do we blame the PCA if we don't like it? And Urbana is not a church anyway.
Click to expand...


The Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship has strayed far from its conservative evangelical roots. Is this a para-church organization that we should be encouraging our young people to be involved in?

A quick look at the South City Church web-site reveals that women are serving in leadership roles that are questionable.

Several of those in leadership roles in South City Church answer the question 'Why is the Gospel Good News?' in ways that liberation theologians would be comfortable with


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## Wayne

My own daughter took the M.Div. track at Covenant. What it boils down to is all the same courses EXCEPT for the preaching courses. Women are not allowed to take the preaching courses. Instead, course requirements were for one or two courses on presentation of the Gospel in non-preaching situations, i.e., outside the context of a worship service.



Jake said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Also, why does the seminary of the PCA offer M.Div's for women?_
> 
> Huh? Even WTS makes it an MAR.
> 
> Does it just mean they completed the course of study...but they still teach that women are not to be ordained as elders and pastors?
> 
> Learn something new every day at the PB....aaack.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to side track too much, but it seemed relevant because this was a degree this teacher of liberation theology holds, but apparently Covenant Seminary makes a distinction between MDivs for Pastoral Ministry and "Specialized Ministry": https://www.covenantseminary.edu/academics/degrees/mdiv/ Only the latter admits women, I guess.
Click to expand...


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## Jack K

yeutter said:


> The Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship has strayed far from its conservative evangelical roots.



I agree that IVCF has changed from what it was even a few decades ago. This is why I wondered why anyone would suggest a talk made at Urbana by a local church employee would be considered a PCA endorsement of an entire strain of theology. But I see that the thread title has now been edited to avoid making that implication.


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## Parakaleo

I am concerned with the practice of many churches in the PCA hiring men and women of various qualifications as "directors" for their ministries. Yes a session has authority to delegate responsibilities, but these paid staff serve in pastoral capacities without any presbytery examination of their theology.


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## Mr. Bultitude

I watched a lot of her message, and I'm not sure what's being identified as "liberation theology." The link at the start of this thread didn't expound either. Black Lives Matter as a slogan/movement is, I believe, distinct from the Black Lives Matter organization, and IVCF seems to have endorsed the former and not the latter. I also believe Higgins' abortion comments were objectionable. But what, specifically, did she say that warrants the description "liberation theology"?


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## Mr. Bultitude

Jack K said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it was during a worship service and was identified as a sermon/message by Urbana, which is not exactly a non-church event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Non-PCA event. So why do we blame the PCA if we don't like it? And Urbana is not a church anyway.
Click to expand...


I agree with all your other points, but I'd like to point out that Communion is administered at Urbana. I think that makes it a church event. IVCF identifies as a parachurch organization, but when I was a student member a couple years ago my staffer explicitly stated that the lines between church and parachurch are being blurred in the organization. I don't recall whether he regarded that as a problem, but I think it's a demonstrable fact.


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## PicardyThird

Mr. Bultitude said:


> when I was a student member a couple years ago my staffer explicitly stated that the lines between church and parachurch are being blurred in the organization.



This is so true. When I was in college, my IV staff member would often say that IV functions on a university campus the way a church functions in a town. Many members saw IV as their church/denomination, with little connection to a local church beside going to Sunday services. There was even inter-ministry rivalry between Cru and IV, and I and others were discouraged from participating in both ministries' events because doing so would be unfaithful and equivalent to being a member of two churches at the same time.

With regards to the Urbana speech, IVCF has a strong interest in the social gospel and an (arguably) unhealthy focus on ethnicity, so it's no surprise that she was asked to speak. In some cases I think they come close to making ethnicity an idol; there is a push for people to identify more with their ethnic heritage than with Christianity. I've been to several IV conferences and retreats in the last few years and there are always talks about the importance of multiethnicity in ministry. One speaker even said that God created language groups as a _blessing_ at Babel because he disapproved of some racial subjugation that was going on there. I think part of this is trying to be culturally relevant and appeal to the secular university atmosphere, which is decidedly left-wing. Friends of mine who attended Urbana this year (I attended in 2012) reported being moved by the talk and see the social justice rhetoric as basically harmless, whereas I see it as more sinister. It was for this reason I wasn't well-liked when I was in InterVarsity, besides the fact that I am, well, unlikable. 

IV has also adopted some postcolonialist ideas. I've heard some leaders say that non-white cultures need non-white missionaries because people need to hear the gospel from 'people who look like them', and go on to imply that white missionaries are being ethnocentric/Eurocentric if they serve in non-white cultures. I know Miss Higgins made some comments related to Eurocentrism; since liberation theology and accusations of Eurocentrism can both be seen as coming from left-wing thought, it's possible that that's where people are hearing liberation theology in her talk.

I hope this post isn't seen as IV-bashing. I think IV is a great place to meet other Christians in college; I just disagree with some of its embracing of some fads and how some substitute it for the local church.


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## Unoriginalname

Parakaleo said:


> I am concerned with the practice of many churches in the PCA hiring men and women of various qualifications as "directors" for their ministries. Yes a session has authority to delegate responsibilities, but these paid staff serve in pastoral capacities without any presbytery examination of their theology.



I think this is a good concern. I have seen on some larger PCA churches websites many of paid staff roles that are seemingly pastoral roles minus the title.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Just as a follow up here is some interaction between IVP and a critique of their event including a defense of their work at Urbana.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/intervarsity-christian-fellowship-black-lives-matter/

While it is likely just a translational ecclesiology issue (the IVF head does not know the difference between a minister and a director in the PCA) it is interesting how he characterizes Mrs. Higgins.



> You state that Michelle Higgins spoke as a representative of BlackLivesMatter. That is not correct. Michelle Higgins primary affiliation from Urbana’s perspective is as a minister of South City Church, a PCA congregation which engages in justice activism in St. Louis as part of its ministry. She spoke as a Christian minister (who does affirm our Doctrinal Basis) from the St. Louis area who has worked alongside the BlackLivesMatter movement. The distinction is important.


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## Jack K

I said much of this in a private message to a member here, but maybe it also deserves posting on this thread…

For some time in American Christianity, concern for social justice has been linked to theological liberalism. That's a real shame. I think it has caused faithful believers to be suspicious of any and all calls for social justice despite the Bible’s interest in the topic. They just assume such calls must be promoting a "social gospel"—because, in truth, so often this is the case. On a board like this one, where many of us see ourselves as stalwart fighters against any hint of theological liberalism, the kneejerk reaction against social justice concerns can be especially strong. We need to realize this, since our sinful tendencies to care about our own camp and our pet causes rather than the needs of others will make us even more inclined not to listen. It's sad, but true. I get that way myself.

I haven't listened to the particular talk from Urbana that this discussion is about. Perhaps it’s not the best place to start listening. It may indeed be that in this case much questionable theology was uttered and many bad causes promoted—I don’t know and it’s not my desire to say. And certainly the quasi-church nature of IVCF, along with its theological drift, adds all kinds of wrinkles. But generally, white believers in the PCA and similar churches would do well to listen when black believers, especially those in our own churches, talk about social justice. There's a perspective we should not miss. This doesn't mean we must swallow everything we hear (there's error and sin in all camps), but we should set aside our distrust of social justice topics long enough, at least, to listen well.


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## RamistThomist

I am all for supporting "justice" ( a term notoriously hard to define), but elements of the BLM crowd use Marxist categories and language. I'm even willing to listen to them on that point (I've read tons of Hegel and Marx) but we can't just say "Let's talk about 'justice'" while our interlocutors are using Marxist categories.


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## Edward

Jack K said:


> For some time in American Christianity, concern for social justice has been linked to theological liberalism.



Along those lines, 3 of the 6 overtures tabled thus far for the PCA GA fall into the 'white guilt' category. (The other 3 deal with the SJC).


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## ZackF

If I may quibble with Jack above, it goes back to definitions. Tons of ink has been spilled over the centuries to define the word and concepts of "justice." However, "social justice" has no such pedigree and heritage. To kidnap a man and enslave him was in the past called an injustice by right thinking men rather than a "social injustice." Social justice is largely a Marxist, loose, propaganda laden category as noted above with often very little effort clarify it by Christian proponents. Not to derail this thread, but one of my own hobby-horses is the confusion of justice with mercy. The teachings of Pope Francis are probably the most visible, public, and often silly example of this conflation of the two categories. Christians, left and right, will speak quite deliberately on how we cannot commence justice like the world but nearly all precision in discourse is abandoned with "social justice" for what I suspect are PC reasons.


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## RamistThomist

As I tell people, I would love to have a discussion on social ethics. Just give me a working definition of "justice" before we begin. It doesn't have to be exhaustive and it probably won't. It doesn't even have to agree with me. I just need to know what page we are on. But if we are sounding like Herbert Marcuse, the game is over.


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## ZackF

ReformedReidian said:


> As I tell people, I would love to have a discussion on social ethics. Just give me a working definition of "justice" before we begin. It doesn't have to be exhaustive and it probably won't. It doesn't even have to agree with me. I just need to know what page we are on. But if we are sounding like Herbert Marcuse, the game is over.



You're by far the better man. Most conversations I've had on this subject totally exhaust me as the person often ends up agreeing with me but doesn't care.


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## NaphtaliPress

Where is that info posted? I know of a complaint that was timely filed with a presbytery but no confirmation for the clerk to date on a matter far more significant.


Edward said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> 
> For some time in American Christianity, concern for social justice has been linked to theological liberalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Along those lines, 3 of the 6 overtures tabled thus far for the PCA GA fall into the 'white guilt' category. (The other 3 deal with the SJC).
Click to expand...


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## Romans922

Edward said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> 
> For some time in American Christianity, concern for social justice has been linked to theological liberalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Along those lines, 3 of the 6 overtures tabled thus far for the PCA GA fall into the 'white guilt' category. (The other 3 deal with the SJC).
Click to expand...


Edward, that's interesting, I didn't know my presbytery's overture had anything to do with white guilt. You want to correct your statement?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

We used to have poster at the PB who kept track of that stuff.


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## Edward

NaphtaliPress said:


> Where is that info posted?



Overtures can be found here: http://www.pcaac.org/general-assembly/overtures/


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## NaphtaliPress

Okay; is there no 'receipt' page for complaints? How are these recorded and handled as far as public record? Not a GA Genus; and don't wantabee.


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## Edward

Romans922 said:


> You want to correct your statement?



After reading your post, I went back and re-read the Missouri overture. I will concede that some might support a resolution worded in that fashion out of a lack of knowledge and experience rather than white guilt. 

If they decide to denounce all racism and racial injustice, then I'll give a round of applause.

Having slept on it, I realized I was too narrow in both my original and revised analysis. There is the marketing aspect, as well. "significantly hinders present day efforts for reconciliation with our African American brothers and sisters and their participation in the PCA; and "


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## Edward

NaphtaliPress said:


> Okay; is there no 'receipt' page for complaints? How are these recorded and handled as far as public record? Not a GA Genus; and don't wantabee.



I don't recall ever having seen one. I usually start looking at the overtures around December/January. 

Would the action you are asking about go to the judicial side or to the Review of Presbytery Records side?


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## Romans922

I am not in MO Presbytery, thank the Lord. I am in Heartland Presbytery.


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## Romans922

NaphtaliPress said:


> Okay; is there no 'receipt' page for complaints? How are these recorded and handled as far as public record? Not a GA Genus; and don't wantabee.



Chris, PM and I can help you better. What you are asking about doesn't have any reference to these overtures referred to. You are talking about a completely different animal.


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## Captain Picard

This is more of an aside relevant to the OP than anything really addressing the dialogue as it has progressed, but:

Comparison of abortion (read: the baby holocaust) and "America's systemic racism problem" makes me ill. As if these people and their progressive sensibilities even believe in abolishing abortion.


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## NaphtaliPress

Maybe; I'll PM Andrew as he suggests.


Edward said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay; is there no 'receipt' page for complaints? How are these recorded and handled as far as public record? Not a GA Genus; and don't wantabee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recall ever having seen one. I usually start looking at the overtures around December/January.
> 
> Would the action you are asking about go to the judicial side or to the Review of Presbytery Records side?
Click to expand...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

For those interested in the continuing conversation here is an interview with Michelle Higgins.

http://www.redletterchristians.org/michelle-higgins/


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## Edward

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> interview with Michelle Higgins



Not getting any better, is it:

" And the Holy Spirit, who is with us now and is the person who runs the church, receives very little credit for his – or Her! – work. "

Notice the capitalization as well as the substance of the comment. 

I had not realized she was the pastor's daughter; I probably should have figured out something from the names. A nepotism rule would solve some of the problems at that church.


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## Romans922

"*What can an individual do who is trying to affect change in his or her church?

*We have to, as individuals, dedicate ourselves to telling the truth about our history. So look at your liturgical practices and ask, “Is there one narrative at the center that is more important than others? Are we uplifting certain confessions, particular creeds that were written by folks in Europe? Whether intentionally or accidentally are we pursuing whiteness as the narrative from which all others should be described?”"


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## Jake

Edward said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> interview with Michelle Higgins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not getting any better, is it:
> 
> " And the Holy Spirit, who is with us now and is the person who runs the church, receives very little credit for his – or Her! – work. "
> 
> Notice the capitalization as well as the substance of the comment.
Click to expand...


Later in that paragraph she makes a comment about dancing with transgender friends and recovering white supremacist friends. Odd language, and one wonders why only one sin is being recovered from.


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## RamistThomist

Jake said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> interview with Michelle Higgins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not getting any better, is it:
> 
> " And the Holy Spirit, who is with us now and is the person who runs the church, receives very little credit for his – or Her! – work. "
> 
> Notice the capitalization as well as the substance of the comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Later in that paragraph she makes a comment about dancing with transgender friends and recovering white supremacist friends. Odd language, and one wonders why only one sin is being recovered from.
Click to expand...


I am still shocked about calling the Holy Spirit a "her." At what point does the PCA take official action?


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## Edward

ReformedReidian said:


> I am still shocked about calling the Holy Spirit a "her." At what point does the PCA take official action?



She doesn't hold an office - is she even a member of a PCA church? About all you could do is file a complaint with her daddy. And likely get smeared with a 'racist' label. 

If her father has any smarts at all, he'll tell her to go get a job with a Soros funded NGO and ease her off the church payroll.


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## Vox Oculi

Whoah. I'd say that errant pneumatology alone is damnable heresy. (Any of you guys familiar with church history and disagree, feel free to educate me).


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## Romans922

Also referred to the Holy Spirit as "it" and "its".



ReformedReidian said:


> Jake said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> interview with Michelle Higgins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not getting any better, is it:
> 
> " And the Holy Spirit, who is with us now and is the person who runs the church, receives very little credit for his – or Her! – work. "
> 
> Notice the capitalization as well as the substance of the comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Later in that paragraph she makes a comment about dancing with transgender friends and recovering white supremacist friends. Odd language, and one wonders why only one sin is being recovered from.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am still shocked about calling the Holy Spirit a "her." At what point does the PCA take official action?
Click to expand...


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## RamistThomist

Vox Oculi said:


> Whoah. I'd say that errant pneumatology alone is damnable heresy. (Any of you guys familiar with church history and disagree, feel free to educate me).



It's very seriously wrong, but given the agnosticism at the 2nd Ecumenical Council I can cut her initial slack (until she clarifies). Strictly speaking, it's wrong to predicate biological gender to Spirit, though in common parlance we call Spirit a "he" not an "it." 

She's wrong, certainly, but I am willing to hear her clarifications.


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