# Singing Soloist



## "William The Baptist" (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm not sure this is in the right forum...

But I am unsure how to handle something that has come up. My parents are always wanting me to sing at their church. My dad especially. They always want me to "use the gift God has given me". Their church is very traditional and sings strictly hymns and only uses a piano and choir. However, almost every Sunday morning they have a "Special" (that's what it says in the bulletin, so and so is singing this Sunday morning's Special) which is a performance type singing of any Christian song in a solo style (this is when some more "contemporary" music is entered onto the scene).

I could have joined the choir a long time ago... but sometimes have theological reservations concerning _some_ of their song choices. I haven't sang a "special" for a couple years. 

It's been months since anyone asked "It's been so long since you have sung for us, when are you singing again?"... but the worship pastor/director pressed me again to sing. I am really uncomfortable with the idea since I don't like singing on Sunday mornings in such a way (not to mention it has been quite the journey in regards to music for me... from hating the Christian music scene and wishing to become famous in secular music, to only wanting to glorify God in all my actions and thus maybe a worship leader was a nice idea... to rejecting the charismatic/contemporary female worship leader idea then sometime after to being introducing to RPW).

I felt really on the spot when brother. Richard asked if I would sing in *a couple weeks* after church and a couple of other people enthusiastically agreed and said they wished I would sing on stage at church more and even offered some suggestions to sing. So I kind of mumbled a "sure".

My dilemma is I don't think I could in good conscience... nor would I feel comfortable singing on stage at church as a soloist on the Lord's day. (I've sung in front of people so many times in years past, both church and non church events-so it is not a stage fright fear things at all) and I don't know if I should graciously do it this "one last time" or tell him I don't want to any more? I would dislike appearing inconsistent but at the same time, really don't want to ever again and would prefer not to.

 Thoughts?


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## Tim (Sep 9, 2011)

Leah, I don't think you should go against your conscience, and it is great that you are thinking through these things theologically. You are not being inconsistent if you have changed your views on what is proper in corporate worship; you are instead acting with integrity. I agree with many of the reasons you have mentioned above for not wanting to sing a solo. The most important, however, is the RPW, and I am glad that you mentioned this also. 

It would be worthwhile to read further on the RPW (if you don't think you have done so sufficiently already). This will continue to help inform your conscience with the biblical doctrines of worship that would be involved in this issue. The more you know about reformed worship, the easier it will be for you to state reasons why you do not wish to sing for the congregation. You have made it clear to us that you are uncomfortable with the idea. The best thing now would be for you to be able to communicate this clearly to those who wish you to sing. Be gracious in declining. You should never be made to go against your conscience.

I will let people wiser than myself comment on how you can do this while still honoring your parents according to the fifth commandment. So, the last thing I will say is that in matters like this, there is often a time when there is a decision demanded of you - and you need to give an answer! What do you believe in this situation? How would God have you act? You will then need to act according to your conscience, despite pressure from others to the contrary, but always with tact and grace. You can do it.


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## Zach (Sep 9, 2011)

A helpful bit of advice that was given to me recently by the Pastor of the Church I worship with Lord's Day evenings, from a source he couldn't remember, was, "Do not let your conscience bear witness against you unless it bears witness with scripture." Then again, Luther said to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I'd say you are handling it really well and looking at the situation biblically and trust you have the wisdom to discern the right course. Sorry I don't have more concrete advice.


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## Jack K (Sep 9, 2011)

Not everyone here will agree (imagine that!), but I believe a solo now and then that expresses biblical truth and praise to God is a perfectly fine part of worship. But it should be done so as to direct praise toward God and cause the congregation to better appreciate him, not the soloist. Because the attention can easily end up focused on the soloist, solos should be handled with care. In fact, they may not be wise at all depending on how a particular congregation tends to react to them... or how they affect the soloist.

It sounds like you struggle, as many singers would, with the attention that ends up focused on you when you sing a solo. In my book, that right there is a good reason to decline. Any pastor or worship leader happily ought to let you bow out simply for the sake of your own desire to stay far away from any temptation toward self-gratification. You may have to explain this to them (and they ought to see it as admirable maturity on your part!), but you should not need to comment on the general practice of solos in worship.


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## a mere housewife (Sep 10, 2011)

Leah, I am not sure how much worth my suggestions can have (and I hope they will be shot down if they are worthless) but my instinctive approach to this situation (if I could sing) would be:

1) Be careful to be very gracious, whatever else you do: make sure to say 'thank you, how kind' etc. when people express how they love to hear your voice. But turn it back on them: say that you are convinced that God who made their voice and died to hear it praise Him, loves to hear their voices just as much as yours in the worship of His redeemed people, and that you do too.

2) Explain that because of the above, you would be more comfortable singing solos in informal non worship settings.

3) Try to turn the opportunity in some measure into an opportunity to introduce better hymns/songs, and help people to learn them. The focus becomes entirely different when the purpose of someone singing or playing through a few verses of a song is to help others get an idea of the tune, so that they can sing too. 

I do dearly love to hear beautiful voices sing what I cannot (I simply can't sing); and I understand why people might get a blessing out of hearing you sing praises to God. But if you point out that you are happy to do this less formal gatherings, and help them to understand that God died to hear them sing His praises, that all of your praise of Him in unison with one another in worship is a more beautiful sound than any professional musician's voice, I think it will be hard for them to be too upset at your scruples .


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## Kim G (Sep 10, 2011)

I was stuck in pretty much the same position as you are for a while (my parents were the song leader and pianist). It's really hard to know what to do, especially when you don't have "one proof-text verse" that explicitly says what you believe.

In my case, while I was still living with my parents, I would sing on occasion, but I chose my songs very carefully to make sure they were theologically sound and written for the sake of communicating truth rather than showing off a trained voice. Since I grew up in a fundamentalist home, all of this "don't go against your conscience" stuff didn't work. My mom took it upon herself to be my conscience, and she believed she had every right to do that, even when I was 21. (She still tells my 21-year-old brother where he has to attend church in another state because she and dad are paying for his education.) Once I was married, it was easier to decline singing when my husband and I visited my family.

I don't think there's an easy answer. I hope you are able to discern your best course of action soon. Praying!


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## Peairtach (Sep 10, 2011)

I think it's better, or rather biblical, keeping soloists for informal-style worship where it's understood that the line between worship and entertainment and performance isn't being strictly maintained e.g. Christian soirees, Christian concerts, etc.

There is a difference between formal and informal worship, as illustrated, for instance, by the fact that the Apostle Paul had to divide the formal worship of the Lord's Supper from the informal worship of the love feast.



> *When you come together* (i.e. when you assemble for formal times of worship), it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. (I Cor 11:20-22, ESV)



The Apostle didn't say that they shouldn't have their informal worship of love feasts i.e. Christian fellowship over good food, just that they had to be in the right context.

There is a different context, and people know there's a different context, and what is appropriate for one context is not appropriate for another.


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## jwithnell (Sep 10, 2011)

When you look at some of the works and compositions of the great writers of sacred music (Mendelssohn's Elijah, Handel's many oratorios, the Bach passions, etc., you will find many works for soloists. We know that some, like Messiah, were sung as performances, but others, most notably the works of Bach, were intended for worship. I have been brought to tears listening to God's truth brought beautifully through the gift of musical talent. If I were in your shoes, I'd look at some of those compositions, and whether or not you use that style of music, look at the way the truth is presented and select your music accordingly. You might want to ask if you could sing from the back to direct attention to what is being sung rather than who is singing. (You'll find some older churches where a choir loft is actually built into the back. It may now be called a balcony but in many cases it was originally for the choir.)


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## Jack K (Sep 10, 2011)

jwithnell said:


> You might want to ask if you could sing from the back to direct attention to what is being sung rather than who is singing.



Yes. An excellent way to handle things.


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## Micah Everett (Sep 10, 2011)

Jack K said:


> Originally Posted by jwithnell
> You might want to ask if you could sing from the back to direct attention to what is being sung rather than who is singing.
> Yes. An excellent way to handle things.



Agreed.


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## "William The Baptist" (Sep 10, 2011)

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful replies!

Tim, yes, that is something I have been slowly making my way through. Sometimes it seems overwhelming being convicted of _so much_, grasping it and understanding it... but to turn around and articulate it requires more in-depth studying and thoughtfulness to recount it to another in a gracious manner. Such is the case with RPW for me. I am still studying through it.

Jack, it is a struggle in a peculiar sense... I don't want to be idolized or made to be something more highly than I am, for I know I am not and the talent I may possess is only by the Lord's grace. I struggle because of those who give attention suddenly see others on stage in a different light, if that makes sense. After severing ties with aspirations to fame in the secular music realm, since then I have never wished for the limelight in anyway. I have other opportunities to sing that suit me well. (Singing for my grandparents, family, when fellowshipping with other believers... even at a recent relatives funeral). I just have qualms with being front and center alone on a Sunday morning service. I did not in the past, and it was never a spotlight issue then.

Heidi, your tender words are taken to heart!

Kim, that sounds oddly familiar, only my parents press it and are not musically talented. (; Thank you for your prayers. I have actually been praying and considering singing a theologically sound song and doing it "this time" for my parents. A lot has been going on with my parents (unrelated to this matter) and sitting down and talking to them about the why I do not wish to sing in such a manner at church on stage would not be wise.

As for singing in the back, it is not really feasible in the church I attend. It is a recently built sanctuary with no balcony and virtually no place to stand in the back (otherwise you're in the aisle or out the door!). I think wishing to sing in the back would cause more issues than simply declining... for my parents would accuse me of false humility and think I was trying to be "holier than thou" or I was trying to be cultic and reject "normal" Christian church things, or even that I was going to far to not be seen and that was prideful.


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## bshpmark (Sep 16, 2011)

First, let me say how impressed I am that you are even thinking this through like you are. Many would not even go to these lengths to make sure that their worship was pleasing to the Lord. So I commend you on this.

Second, from a liturgical church standpoint which is where I am coming from, our entire service is designed to portray the glory of heaven and to focus the attention of the worshippers on the triune God. We occasionally have a soloist but the song is always appropriate for this type of worship. You won't find the soloist singing "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life" or "The Baptism of Jesse Taylor." It may be the Lord's Prayer or a hymn or song pertaining to the Eucharist at the time the gifts are presented.

Third, if you did sing, could you introduce the song by reading a verse of Scripture before you sing that would cause the hearers to turn their attention to the Lord? Perhaps you ould sing a song that you could introduce by saying something like "As I sing this song for God's glory, I would ask you to bow your heads and be in a state of prayer as you listen to these words, and pray them back to the Lord in your hearts."

Fourth, as others have said, you have to be careful about going against your conscience. Romans 14 comes to mind and the issue of meat eating being okay for some Christians but not for others. Don't let others cause your conscience to be wounded just for the sake of their own enjoyment.

Finally, speaking out of experience. I went through two rounds with my parents. First when I became a Calvinist and second when I became an Anglican. Fortunately, my parents changed from an Arminian strain of Baptists and ended up becoming Reformed Baptists and then Orthodox Presbyterians and as Reformed if not more than me! But before they did you would have thought I had grown horns and come at them with a pitchfork. Well, it was all good after that until I decided to become Anglican. My mother cried and cried and cried because all she knew was that I was going to be a Roman Catholic because she saw me in a priest's collar and I was leaving the faith and going to hell. So, out of respect for her I kept my mouth shut about a lot of things, particularly about the Eucharist. It was not until their OPC pastor assured her that I was still a Christian that she was okay with everything.

What I am saying is this... I know you will love and respect your parents. In the earthly sphere of things that is what the Lord would have you do first and foremost in my opinion.


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## au5t1n (Sep 16, 2011)

Leah, you have three good reasons to give a charitable but firm "no, thank you" to your worship leader:

1. You are not sure the RPW allows it (and you are right--good call).

2. You are not comfortable with it (that is a good enough reason by itself).

3. You do not feel it would be to your edification.

Those are good reasons. I personally don't think that you should feel obligated to explain and defend these reasons to folks who pressure you. A simple polite "No, thank you. I would rather not," should be sufficient for church leadership in particular. You might have to take more time and patience with your parents, but hopefully they will understand. Is it so unusual for someone not to want to get up in front and sing alone in church?

I also want to point out that I think the idea of "doing it one last time" to get people to stop bugging you is doomed to fail. The idea of you as a church solo singer will only be fresher in people's minds, and your reason for not wanting to do it next time will sound more hollow ("but you JUST did it. All of a sudden your feelings and convictions have changed?") I have used this kind of logic in the past and it never worked the way I planned. I would just advise sticking to your guns (politely and patiently) now, not later. I know it's hard. On the one hand, you are under pressure to go against your convictions and feelings; on the other hand, you want to be charitable and you don't want to get into an argument. That is understandable. I think time will get people used to you not singing in front, though.


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## JennyG (Sep 17, 2011)

I think Austin's right about the chances of satisfying anyone by doing it "just this once". it will only focus on you more inevitably the kind of attention you don't want!
And I think you're right in your misgivings about doing it at all. It's true that music can be a glorious addition and aid to worship. Still I seriously question how far any soloist who steps out before a hushed and rapt audience to sing "I know that my Redeemer liveth" (say) will *at the time* be able to do it purely and entirely to the Lord (many won't even be trying, of course).

As an organist, I'm very much aware of how the music, and the necessary attention to technique, can take over the forefront of your mind. I don't have to take centre stage. I play tucked away out of sight at the organ console and pretty much taken for granted by the hearers, which is much better, but even so I can't easily keep my mind fixed prayerfully on the content of the music. I have to settle for offering it up beforehand, and I very often think of Sir Jacob Astley  before the battle of Edgehill, praying 
"O Lord, Thou knowest how busy I must be this day; if I forget Thee, do not Thou forget me." 

It stands to reason that for you, stepping out as a soloist, it would be ten times harder to give God the glory. People would want to give plenty to you, whatever you said! Not always from bad motives either - they might think it unkind not to shower you with appreciation.
It's a shame you have reservations about the choir's music, or singing with them could have been a good compromise. The choir in my local church sings anthems every week, and there are quite often short solo passages within the anthems, but the soloists aren't announced by name and they don't even stand forward from their places within the ranks. That does away with a lot of what's worrying you


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

> Neh 7:60 All the temple servants and the sons of Solomon's servants were 392.
> Neh 7:61 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addon, and Immer, but they could not prove their fathers' houses nor their descent, whether they belonged to Israel:
> Neh 7:62 the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, the sons of Nekoda, 642.
> Neh 7:63 Also, of the priests: the sons of Hobaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name).
> ...





> Exo 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.
> Exo 15:21 And Miriam sang to them: "Sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea."



I agree you should use the gifts God gave you. A proper Christian solo during formal worship service is a natural and blessed part of Christian worship.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> > Neh 7:60 All the temple servants and the sons of Solomon's servants were 392.
> > Neh 7:61 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addon, and Immer, but they could not prove their fathers' houses nor their descent, whether they belonged to Israel:
> > Neh 7:62 the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, the sons of Nekoda, 642.
> > Neh 7:63 Also, of the priests: the sons of Hobaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name).
> ...



Curious where it is, in those passages you cite as your evidence, that you see justification for "a proper Christian solo" as a "natural and blessed part of Christian worship."


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

When Miriam sang would the occasion have had more in common with a formal worship service or a youth bonfire at the beach? I'm curious as to why there's any question about it.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> I agree you should use the gifts God gave you. A proper Christian solo during formal worship service is a natural and blessed part of Christian worship.



Even putting aside the question of whether solos belong in the worship service, why do you think it's okay to advise Leah to go against her conscience and do something non-obligatory (at the very least) which she has clearly stated she does not believe would tend to her edification?

I'm amazed that Leah came here for advice on dealing with unfair pressure and from some people she only gets more pressure. She said she doesn't feel comfortable doing it, and she doesn't think she can do it without sinning in her heart. What is difficult to understand about this?

I don't mean to single you out, Mr. Vaughan. I was just surprised that a number of people told Leah, after she said she doesn't think she can do this without sinning, that she should just do it. I know y'all mean well, but read what she said:



> My dilemma is I don't think I could in good conscience... nor would I feel comfortable singing on stage at church as a soloist on the Lord's day.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

> Even putting aside the question of whether solos belong in the worship service, why do you think it's okay to advise Leah to go against her conscience and do something non-obligatory (at the very least) which she has clearly stated she does not believe would tend to her edification?



It show great quality on your part that you're so protective of her. I expect that of a young man of your caliber. But Leah's a big girl and my reading of her OP was that she wasn't totally settled in her mind and wanted input.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

I'd like to echo Jack's advice:



Jack K said:


> It sounds like you struggle, as many singers would, with the attention that ends up focused on you when you sing a solo. In my book, that right there is a good reason to decline. Any pastor or worship leader happily ought to let you bow out simply for the sake of your own desire to stay far away from any temptation toward self-gratification. You may have to explain this to them (and they ought to see it as admirable maturity on your part!), but you should not need to comment on the general practice of solos in worship.



We can have fun debating solos on the PB, but given Leah's statements, I think the above is the best course in this situation.

---------- Post added at 09:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------




TimV said:


> > Even putting aside the question of whether solos belong in the worship service, why do you think it's okay to advise Leah to go against her conscience and do something non-obligatory (at the very least) which she has clearly stated she does not believe would tend to her edification?
> 
> 
> 
> It show great quality on your part that you're so protective of her. I expect that of a young man of your caliber. But Leah's a big girl and my reading of her OP was that she wasn't totally settled in her mind and wanted input.



Re-reading your first post, I realize you were mainly addressing whether solos belong in church and not so much whether she should feel obligated to do it if she thinks she will be tempted to see it as a performance. I'm not trying to stifle discussion on solos; I just want to be careful to keep those two questions separate. I'm sure Leah will enjoy whatever transpires between you and Mr. Pedlar on the general acceptability of solos.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> When Miriam sang would the occasion have had more in common with a formal worship service or a youth bonfire at the beach? I'm curious as to why there's any question about it.



Whether it had "more in common" with a formal worship service or a youth bonfire at the beach isn't at all relevant. Some youth bonfires at a beach have more in common with a formal worship service than some actual worship services I've been a part of. If the events of Exodus 15 weren't part of a formal worship service, then it cannot serve as a means to make your case about the propriety of a solo as part of a formal worship service.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

toddpedlar said:


> If the events of Exodus 15 weren't part of a formal worship service, then it cannot serve as a means to make your case about the propriety of a solo as part of a formal worship service.



Exactly. And if the incident was formal worship, then singing a solo is natural and good. Unless you lump singing solos along with animal sacrifices, then you'd have singing as a congregation non sacrificial and singing solo sacrificial.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > If the events of Exodus 15 weren't part of a formal worship service, then it cannot serve as a means to make your case about the propriety of a solo as part of a formal worship service.
> ...



It might help if we had a better idea of what all you are willing to let the passage prove. Do you think it justifies a woman in the congregation gathering all the other women during service, giving them tambourines, and leading them in a dance around the pews? If not, why not?

I would consider the passage a national celebration of God's deliverance. I realize that for Israel the line between national celebration and public worship could be a little blurry, given that they were a nation-church. However, I think we can say at the very least that this event does not necessarily imply anything about what went on in synagogue services, nor what should go on in New Testament worship services after them.


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## greenbaggins (Sep 17, 2011)

It is neither right nor safe to go against conscience, Leah. As others have said, this is your starting point. You have to settle what your conscience says. And I, though I think solos do not inherently violate the RPW, would never tell you to go ahead and do it if you're uncomfortable with it. If you decide against it, here's how I would recommend you handle it: go to the worship leader and/or pastor (and not alone, take someone with you that understands you and your conscience on this particular point, so that you won't feel "ganged up against") and simply explain why you don't feel comfortable doing it. Most pastors will realize right away the problem and won't keep on pressing you to do something you're uncomfortable doing. If you sense the worship leader/pastor is going to start putting pressure on you to change your mind, end the conversation graciously, but in a hurry! I agree with what some of the others have said that "one last time" isn't going to be one last time.

Incidentally, I also think that solos can be done terribly, and in such a distracting way that attention is focused on the singer rather than on the glory of God. Applause is horrible, for instance. If your church does that, then the chances of them receiving a solo in a proper way fall to zero anyway.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

Austin do you think that there were synagogue services at that time? 

I think that's a weak point in many of the RPW theories that are much more strict than most Reformed folk hold to. Yes, during the time of Christ and for some time before it seems there weren't for example musical instruments used. But I would ask if we should assume the typical Synagogue services during that time had any sort of Divine mandate?

Anyway, as to solos, just reduce things to what may, I admit, be a bit absurd, but still....OK, so we're on board that congregational singing was good and proper, right?? So there's 3 people in church 'cause it's snowed in, and two have colds and stop after the first verse. Should the last one singing stop because it's magically become sinful?


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## Scott1 (Sep 17, 2011)

You are to be commended for seeking this out biblically, and thoroughly.

Knowing what I know now, it would generally be uncomfortable having a "solo" because of the basic precepts of the regulative principle. Somehow, there might be occasions for exception, I'm thinking of a ten minute quiet piano solo before the service begins. Not sure how I can differentiate that, but am.

Calling attention to self is a standard of "broad evangelicalism," but not the deeper principles of God's Word. It's not about the people, or our feelings and we must focus on God in corporate worship.

It's especially egregious on the Lord's Day to detract from the holiness of the sabbath, which we need to be more conscious of, it seems in this generation more than the last.

But here's one exception, at least, if your church has some sort of special event, it might be okay. For example, an annual music program, children's play, etc.

I know some would probably say everything that happens on the church property must in some sense be corporate worship, but I think you could do this in another context like that.

While I'm not quite convinced any "solo" is always prohibited on the sabbath, the regulative principle would generally lean against it, especially a pattern or culture of that. And we ought not go against conscience, investigate if our conscience is right, biblically, but not go against it.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> Austin do you think that there were synagogue services at that time?
> 
> I think that's a weak point in many of the RPW theories that are much more strict than most Reformed folk hold to. Yes, during the time of Christ and for some time before it seems there weren't for example musical instruments used. But I would ask if we should assume the typical Synagogue services during that time had any sort of Divine mandate?
> 
> Anyway, as to solos, just reduce things to what may, I admit, be a bit absurd, but still....OK, so we're on board that congregational singing was good and proper, right?? So there's 3 people in church 'cause it's snowed in, and two have colds and stop after the first verse. Should the last one singing stop because it's magically become sinful?



I have no idea whether there were synagogue services or something similar. I guess I doubt it. But either way, I think Miriam and the other women celebrating a significant historical event with an inspired celebration of God's deliverance (Miriam was a prophetess and her song was prophetic) does not prove anything about what a New Testament worship service should look like. Can you imagine the Apostle Paul instructing the church at Corinth to have all the women follow the pastor's sister in a tambourine dance around the room?

I guess what I need help with is how you are getting from (a) a one time, inspired national celebration of a significant redemptive-historical event to (b) Solos in regular NT worship. You might be right about (b), but I need to see the dots connected which prove it from (a).

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------

To answer the hypothetical question...would the one guy in your example be singing for the others or just continuing to sing to God while they are momentarily disabled? There is a difference between can't sing and aren't allowed to sing. During a solo, only the person up front is supposed to sing. The others are supposed to listen, even if they don't have colds.


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## JennyG (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> you should use the gifts God gave you. A proper Christian solo during formal worship service is a natural and blessed part of Christian worship.


It may bless the hearers,... provided they don't see fit to applaud or otherwise confuse the house of worship with a concert hall. But what about the person singing? Tim, I know you wouldn't want to imply Leah has an obligation to bless the congregation at the expense of her own conscience :-S


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

JennyG said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > you should use the gifts God gave you. A proper Christian solo during formal worship service is a natural and blessed part of Christian worship.
> ...



That's what I should have said instead of my rant. Live and learn, I guess.


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## Peairtach (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> When Miriam sang would the occasion have had more in common with a formal worship service or a youth bonfire at the beach? I'm curious as to why there's any question about it.



You have to remember that we have a new pattern for formal and gathered worship that is simple, spiritual and scriptural in the New Covenant era i.e. unaccompanied Psalm-singing.

This is appropriate to the more mature New Testament church that does not need soloists, musical intruments and other fancy accoutrements in order to worship God.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

Peairtach said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > When Miriam sang would the occasion have had more in common with a formal worship service or a youth bonfire at the beach? I'm curious as to why there's any question about it.
> ...



So simple, in fact, that it contains no elements to which anyone who accepts the Bible as an authority could reasonably object. The fact that we even have to debate solos is almost enough to establish that they are not commanded. Let's say we introduced a special solo into my church's service. All the _other_ elements of our worship can be easily and quickly proven from Scripture as required and practiced by the Apostolic church(reading and preaching of Scripture, singing of psalms, prayer, the Lord's supper, etc.). So when someone asks us why _this_ element has been introduced, what do I tell them? "The prophetess Miriam once after a miraculous event led a group of women to celebrate with dancing and tambourines and an inspired song she wrote; therefore we can have solos in NT worship (but not the dancing and tambourines; what are we, charismatic?)" I don't think it's a credible proof.


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## a mere housewife (Sep 17, 2011)

It seems, reading Leah's follow up post that what makes the situation much harder, and I gather the main reason why she has agreed to do this once more, is her parents' pressure and her desire to please them as much as possible. I am wondering if the advice (re: the non-helpfulness of agreeing to do something one more time, which in general I also agree with) is the same when the conflictedness arises more because her conscience is also very careful about honoring her parents; and she is having to work out the details of trying to keep a clear conscience in every respect in this added dynamic of the church situation?


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

a mere housewife said:


> It seems, reading Leah's follow up post that what makes the situation much harder, and I gather the main reason why she has agreed to do this once more, is her parents' pressure and her desire to please them as much as possible. I am wondering if the advice (re: the non-helpfulness of agreeing to do something one more time, which in general I also agree with) is the same when the conflictedness arises more because her conscience is also very careful about honoring her parents; and she is having to work out the details of trying to keep a clear conscience in every respect in this added dynamic of the church situation?



I guess the situation would be more complicated if her parents were to require or instruct her to sing a solo in church rather than simply encourage her. At that point she would need to get to the bottom of whether solos are permissible in church, because we should obey in all lawful commands. However, I have difficulty believing most parents would _order_ their daughter to sing in church if she respectfully made it clear that she does not believe she could do it worshipfully and in good conscience.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 17, 2011)

austinww said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > TimV said:
> ...


I'm not a proponent of solos in worship, but this line of reasoning is particularly bad. It is called the tyranny of the weaker brother. Worship is governed by the Bible, not by what the least common denominator of what someone _thinks_ the Bible permits.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 17, 2011)

Such a blessing to see that you are thinking this issue through.

A helpful piece from one of our own PB'ers:

A Puritan's Mind » The Regulative Principle in Worship: A brief article – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

(Just wish Brother McMahon would stop tweaking the site and breaking all my old bookmarks...  )

AMR


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## toddpedlar (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > If the events of Exodus 15 weren't part of a formal worship service, then it cannot serve as a means to make your case about the propriety of a solo as part of a formal worship service.
> ...



So, again, I ask where in the passage you get any idea that this was a formal occasion of worship, rather than a simple example of a woman singing praise and thanksgiving for deliverance? 

If you are taking this as justification of soloists, as some have pointed out, then it also seems you'd have to allow for liturgical dance as part of formal worship as well. 

At any rate much of this discussion is beside the main point. The RPW does not derive from narrative descriptions of incidents like this one in Exodus 15, but from positive command.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

> Tim, I know you wouldn't want to imply Leah has an obligation to bless the congregation at the expense of her own conscience :-S



I thought I made that clear here:



> my reading of her OP was that she wasn't totally settled in her mind and wanted input.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> I'm not a proponent of solos in worship, but this line of reasoning is particularly bad. It is called the tyranny of the weaker brother. Worship is governed by the Bible, not by what the least common denominator of what someone thinks the Bible permits.



I will elaborate a little more, though I wouldn't have expected it to be necessary. My statement already contained appropriate qualifications which your response ignored ("accepts the authority of the Bible," "_reasonably_ object"), but here it goes anyway. I agree worship is governed by the Bible. Here is what I had in mind:

If someone comes to your church with some strange RPW-based objection to, say, observing the Lord's Supper, what do you say? You show them approved examples of the Lord's supper being observed in corporate worship in Acts 20 and 1 Cor. 11. If they won't accept approved example, well...that's part of the RPW, so their problem is with the RPW and not with you.

If someone comes to your church with some strange RPW-based objection to singing in worship (I think some early particular baptists?), what do you say? You show them Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. Easy enough.

If someone comes to your church with some strange RPW-based objection to reading the Word, or preaching and explaining the Word, in worship, what do you say? You show them 1 Tim. 4:13: "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine."

That's all I meant when I said that someone who accepts the authority of the Bible should not have a _reasonable_ objection to the commanded elements, because all the elements listed in WCF 21 can, in my opinion, be established in a relatively straightforward manner from Scripture by direct precept, approved example, or necessary inference.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 17, 2011)

I had thought to post this before, but for some reason did not. I agree with the others that "one last time" very likely will not be one last time. More likely, it will have the opposite effect and will lead to more encouragement or pressure for such performances in the future. I appreciate Lane's suggestion, but my guess is that no one whatsoever in the church will appreciate Leah's concerns from a theological standpoint. (Hopefully at least someone would be able to appreciate her being conflicted.) The more likely response, absurd as it is, will be that she has gotten caught up in some kind of "religion," "hyper-Calvinism" etc. 

Some of the others here may not be that familiar with the kind of church described in the OP. They have solos every week. Often the singers are put on kind of a rotation where they will sing once every 6 weeks or whatever, depending on the size of the church. Agreeing to sing will remind others of her gifts and will make it that much more difficult to decline in the future. 

Honestly, I prefer worship led by a "worship leader" or team (in my opinion it can be done well, even including Psalm singing in some cases) to the schmaltzy practices often seen in so-called "old time" or "traditional" churches, where much time is crowded out of the worship services by solos and choir pieces. Such churches often have little place for congregational singing, which was one of the great recoveries of the Reformation. Also, typically, one or more of the songs is broken up by the welcome time in which everyone goes around shaking hands, etc. Apparently it never occurs to people that that can be done before or after the service!


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## JBaldwin (Sep 17, 2011)

Leah, I've been where you are, have many years on you, and have a similiar funadamentalist background. We can add to that--as a fundamentalist, I was educated and trained as a church musician. I didn't know anything else to do in church. 

I began to ease myself out the fundamentalist world when I was about your age and found myself worshipping with the Plymouth Brethren on Sunday evenings and worshipping with my folks at the fundamentalist church on Sunday mornings. At this brethren church, we sang a capella and the women wore head coverings. I dropped out of the choir at the fundamentalist church, because they would not allow me to wear a headcovering. Later, I gave up playing the piano for church all together, because I felt it had become an idol to me. I wouldn't sing solos either. 


Today, I am the director of music at a PCA church, and on a rare occasion, I sing a duet or solo, though usually I prefer to stay in the background. Sometimes, however, the text of a song speaks so strongly to me that I either sing it or ask someone else to do it, especially if it won't work as a piece of music for the congregation to sing.

Looking back, I don't think there was anything wrong with my singing in the choir without a headcovering, playing the piano for church or singing a solo, except that if I had, I would have violated my conscience. That would have been bad. 

Today you see things one way, tomorrow, you may not seem that way, or you may see them the same as you do now. The point is, you must do what you believe is right and trust the Lord to take care of the rest. If you don't feel comfortable singing, don't sing.


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## bshpmark (Sep 17, 2011)

Excellent post, JBaldwin. I used to sing solos quite often in my Baptist days. A couple of years after becoming Reformed in my thinking, I began to get very legalistic in my thinking (I am NOT saying that Leah has become that, I said I, ME, had become that) to the point where I would even pray over the paper clips that held my sermon notes together and once the sermon was preached would throw the clip away to make sure it was never used again for anything "unholy." I also quit singing for many years because I felt that I did not want to be a showman or want the people feeling that the service was about me since I was already preaching or teaching. A few years later I came to the realization that my viewpoint was no longer correct for me, again FOR ME. I began singing if someone would request me to.

I know this will rankle some feathers here but this is just my situation with my parish. I have a small parish and most of the members are elderly. For the first six years of our existence we had no pianist or organist. We still meet in loaned facilities. For a long time we used a device called "The Digital Hymnal" for music accompaniment. Finally, my assistant priest and I began to lead the singing with our guitars either acoustic or electric because the people preferred live music over canned music. We have a variety of music from the old Anglican hymns to contemporary praise and worship. I try to make sure that all the music we do is theologically accurate. Now why am I saying this?

I have an elderly lady in my parish who has talked to me about doing her funeral and has laid out for me how she wants the funeral to be done. She has requested that I do two of her favorite songs at the funeral. I thought about it for awhile and decided that since she will not be hearing them at her funeral, why not let her hear them now with everyone singing them. So, and yes, here goes, on two occasions I have done Precious Lord Take My Hand as a solo and as a parish we have sung Mansion Over the Hilltop. She was in tears. The Mansion over the Hilltop was done as an intro to a series of sermons I preached on Heaven, Where and When. You would have to know this lady to understand why I did this. I met her one day when as a police officer I delivered a death notice to her that her son had committed suicide. She lives with guilt every day about it. She is a Roman Catholic who by the grace of God started attending our parish shortly after her son died and has grown in her knowledge of Christ and salvation and the things of God. She is now regularly reading the Bible and participating in worship. She has been transformed by grace.

And yes, I could feel Dr. Robert Rayburn, my worship professor at Covenant, staring down from heaven giving me the what for!!! (To this day I cannot sing "The Old Rugged Cross" because of Dr. Rayburn. He used to tease me on Monday mornings and ask me if I had practiced idolatry the day before by singing to that old rugged piece of wood, ha ha ha. I was a Southern Baptist at the time.)

Since our parish only meets on Sunday morning sometimes we have to make exceptions in our worship, hopefully not often. The whole point of all this is that like you, what worked for me at one time, no longer works. And my people know that we are not there to feel good, or see what we can get out of the service. They know that we are to worship God, praise and glorify the Most Holy and Blessed Trinity, and to exalt the Most Holy Name of the Lamb, Jesus, who was slain for our sins. But I also take my responsibility as a shepherd seriously and not only is it my responsibility to teach people how to worship, but also to care for them, feed them, and when they are hurting to minister God's grace in a way that their heart is touched so that they will know that Christ loves them and has not forsaken them.

Leah, stick with your conscience and let it be molded and transformed by the work of the Holy Spirit and not by the commandments and traditions of men (Romans 14, Colossians 2).

Sorry to pontificate Brothers and Sisters.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 17, 2011)

austinww said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a proponent of solos in worship, but this line of reasoning is particularly bad. It is called the tyranny of the weaker brother. Worship is governed by the Bible, not by what the least common denominator of what someone thinks the Bible permits.
> ...


Austin,

That is not the limits of your argument. What is someone objects to having two Scripture readings (OT/NT) and suggests that it should be only one? Must we bow to him? What if someone objects to a corporate confession of sin? What if someone - one of a 1000 people - objects to musical accompaniment? Must we bow to him? If that same man is the only one who insists on Psalms only? Must we bow to him - not because we are convinced of the Biblical nature of his arguments, but simply because it causes less debate? Do you honestly think in that case there will be _less_ rancor and division in the Church?


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> Austin,
> 
> That is not the limits of your argument. What is someone objects to having two Scripture readings (OT/NT) and suggests that it should be only one? Must we bow to him? What if someone objects to a corporate confession of sin? What if someone - one of a 1000 people - objects to musical accompaniment? Must we bow to him? If that same man is the only one who insists on Psalms only? Must we bow to him - not because we are convinced of the Biblical nature of his arguments, but simply because it causes less debate? Do you honestly think in that case there will be _less_ rancor and division in the Church?



Rev. Greco,

Fair enough. I admit I only meant for my point to apply to the basic list of elements, not to all the aspects of them. To answer your questions: how many Scripture readings is circumstantial. The other issues I agree should be decided by Biblical arguments and not by whatever causes the least debate. I'll be more clear in future.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

You're a good man, Austin.

As a related point, I keep seeing those of us who are united by the WCF and it's sisters and isotopes either trying to make the confession less strict than it is or trying to make it more strict than it is. And it's a whole host of issues, from head coverings to musical instruments to Bible versions and a bunch of stuff in between. In our current cultural context, if for no other reasons than strategic, I wonder if we should be even more aggressive and passionate in keeping it the way it is rather than loosening or tightening it.

Nice posts Leeanne and Mark and FG.


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## py3ak (Sep 17, 2011)

Leah, the upshot of all of this seems to be, basically, that this is your decision. When you've decided on a course of action (to sing or not to sing) people can give you advice on how to pursue your chosen course so as to avoid causing offense. The short version is that should you decide not to sing, the next time you are asked by someone who can make it happen you can simply express that you are reluctant to because you feel it places you in spiritual peril - and let them draw their own conclusions. What that is, really doesn't matter. 

And that is not untrue: going against your conscience puts you in peril. Even if it could be shown from Scripture (which would be quite a feat!) that solo performances of music are acceptable, the abuses rampant within the churches in this connection might well lead you to exclude yourself from that scene; and that is without even getting into the point that establishing that a solo musical performance is acceptable still doesn't address the question of who may legitimately deliver one. 

I hope the popularity of your thread has not led to confusion. Remember that whatever wiggle room you may have to accommodate people and their requests outside of worship, when it comes to formal worship the only consideration should be what God has required of our hand.


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

TimV said:


> You're a good man, Austin.
> 
> As a related point, I keep seeing those of us who are united by the WCF and it's sisters and isotopes either trying to make the confession less strict than it is or trying to make it more strict than it is. And it's a whole host of issues, from head coverings to musical instruments to Bible versions and a bunch of stuff in between. In our current cultural context, if for no other reasons than strategic, I wonder if we should be even more aggressive and passionate in keeping it the way it is rather than loosening or tightening it.
> 
> Nice posts Leeanne and Mark and FG.



I definitely don't think it's time to add new things. It is supposed to be a uniting document and Presbyterians need that now more than ever. I like it as it stands.

I hold to some of these "strict views," but I don't think I am divisive about them. I recently transfered membership because after a lot of thought and prayer, I decided (with my pastor's approval) that it would be more edifying to both churches to transfer to the one that holds the same convictions I do. He thought I handled it well, and we are on good terms. But what would I have done if there had been no such other church available? I would have stayed at COTC and not been difficult. I was against instruments over a year before I was EP (I think that's rare), but I never complained about them (I was a church musician for several years before that, by the way). I didn't try to make my church bend to my will. I told my pastor once that I disagreed with women reading Scripture to the congregation and explained why, and when we couldn't come to an agreement, I dropped it and never brought it up again. Likewise for a few other things. Neither of those is one of the main reasons why I transferred (it was primarily because I couldn't sing there), but they help illustrate that once it was clear my pastor and I were not going to reach agreement on something, I did _not_ badger him about it further.

---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------




TimV said:


> You're a good man, Austin.



Thanks. So are you. 

Also, thanks Ruben for summing it all up so nicely.


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## "William The Baptist" (Sep 17, 2011)

py3ak said:


> Leah, the upshot of all of this seems to be, basically, that this is your decision. When you've decided on a course of action (to sing or not to sing) people can give you advice on how to pursue your chosen course so as to avoid causing offense. The short version is that should you decide not to sing, the next time you are asked by someone who can make it happen you can simply express that you are reluctant to because you feel it places you in spiritual peril - and let them draw their own conclusions. What that is, really doesn't matter.
> 
> And that is not untrue: going against your conscience puts you in peril. Even if it could be shown from Scripture (which would be quite a feat!) that solo performances of music are acceptable, the abuses rampant within the churches in this connection might well lead you to exclude yourself from that scene; and that is without even getting into the point that establishing that a solo musical performance is acceptable still doesn't address the question of who may legitimately deliver one.
> 
> I hope the popularity of your thread has not led to confusion. Remember that whatever wiggle room you may have to accommodate people and their requests outside of worship, when it comes to formal worship the only consideration should be what God has required of our hand.



Thanks Ruben.

I think my biggest thing is I err on the side of caution on so many things. I want to please my parents, those older than me in the church... but not at the cost of my own conscience and especially what scripture is clear about. I have been teased and mocked about a lot of shifts in my life, thinking, and Christian beliefs... people accusing me of things that deeply hurt me. I don't really have much support or constructive encouragement. Because of that, I tread lightly on so many things because I want to be honoring to the Lord above all, but it seems most people around me don't understand that realistically (meaning, they try to bind my conscience by telling me how silly, legalistic, or dumb I am).

I know a lot of things I am struggling to understand and learning will only be solidified as the Lord reveals more of His truth to me. But right now, I don't have a desire to sing in front of anyone at church on the Lord's day... and more than that I still don't think I can in good conscience (for it would be to please men, not the Lord). This situation has been on hold because I was out of town one weekend, and missed morning worship at my parents church the next. But, I know it will be pressed either tomorrow or the following weeks.

For now, though there is "wiggle room" and I _could_ sing, I don't wish to. I don't have anyone in my family sympathetic to this, nor in my church... so I'm open to advice about the best way to approach this without causing offense, as you said. 

Also, I have appreciated all the responses and dialogues that have been going on.



TimV said:


> It show great quality on your part that you're so protective of her.


 Yes, thank you Austin


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## py3ak (Sep 17, 2011)

All right, people, thread shift. How can Leah get out of insistent requests to sing a solo without giving any needless aggravation or appearing to rebuke others?

With the music director, perhaps you could tell him that you're not comfortable _being asked_ - that should get the pressure off you not just for one occasion but for the indefinite future. If you let your discomfort show while he's talking to you about it, that will have a tendency to cut off follow-up questions. And if you hash it out with him ahead of time, you might not even have to bring it up with your parents - and I certainly wouldn't bring it up unless they do.

The other alternative is to be very cheerful and let out some frightful squawks when the question comes up, and skip out while people are laughing so nothing is ever settled. But perhaps I reveal too much of my own methods. Distract and run does work, though, and distracting with humor means that the next meeting isn't especially awkward.


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## TimV (Sep 17, 2011)

She should eat garlic and sing right in front of those people pressuring her in rehearsal.


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## JBaldwin (Sep 17, 2011)

When I was struggling with all these things I simply told people the truth. I don't want to sing because....

Just an aside here, but I don't think there is anything wrong with very kindly telling people where you are in your walk with the Lord, and telling them how you feel. I remember several years ago, I asked a very talented young man to play the keyboard with the worship team, and he told me point blank, and very kindly, too, that he was working through his views on worshipping without instruments and until he came to a conclusion on the matter, he felt it was best for his conscience sake to not play. I really appreciated that.


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## JoannaV (Sep 17, 2011)

At our church _sometimes_ a few (2-4) people will sing a theologically sound song that is not so suited to congregational singing. Everyone can hear the words and sing along in their head, as it were. We haven't had _one_ person sing, which is really because any one person would feel similar to you and there is always someone else who can sing with them, so it's not an issue. (Although sometimes one person may sing a verse before we all sing, if it is an unfamiliar tune.) I can totally understand your reluctance to sing solo, or in a way which implies a performance. If you could choose the song, and make it one with lots of theological reformed content, then I could see the benefit of that, and would kind of like you to do so. You should not be making yourself the centre of attention...but nor are you responsible for what others centre their attention on. If solos are common in your church, and you sing a song in which the focus is on a sound message and it's musically easy for people to hear the message rather than focus on the voice, then that would seem good enough to me. Although I still understand the wish to not _feel_ that somebody is focusing on you. And you wouldn't want to sing something that the pastor disagreed with.

ETA: you all posted whilst I was slowly pecking away at my keyboard


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## bshpmark (Sep 17, 2011)

I concur, Leah, with the above post. Be honest without going into a lot of detail. Simply tell folks that you are not comfortable doing so right now but tell them you appreciate their asking.

By the way, don't worry about working and thinking through things and changing. I am 58 and can't say how many changes I have made in my theological positions since that night in 1978 when I read Romans 9, 10, and 11 and the light suddenly came on!! It's all part of maturing in Christ and His Word. One day when you are 40 or 50, you will read a passage of Scripture and say to yourself, "Wow, so that's what that means! And to think I have read this a hundred times before! Thank you Holy Spirit."


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## au5t1n (Sep 17, 2011)

bshpmark said:


> Simply tell folks that you are not comfortable doing so right now but tell them you appreciate their asking.



Short and sweet. This is what I suggest too, though really if you choose any of the above suggestions and handle it with patience and charity, you should be fine. I just would hate for you to be put on the spot having to defend exhaustively something you aren't 100% sure about, so I'll second Rev. Camp's suggestion.


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## JennyG (Sep 18, 2011)

py3ak said:


> The other alternative is to be very cheerful and let out some frightful squawks when the question comes up, and skip out while people are laughing so nothing is ever settled. But perhaps I reveal too much of my own methods.


hahaha - here in Scotland my day has just been brightened, as I try to picture Ruben applying that strategy 
I thought for a moment you were recommending frightful squawks be let out during the actual solo. There might be other reasons against that, but I bet it would be effective


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## "William The Baptist" (Sep 18, 2011)

Oh my. After church today, do you know how many people asked me when I am singing next? Every single person I talked to except one (who is a visitor) AND the music pastor. A few things said to me were...

One lady told me the next time I get up and sing on stage it is going to be more womanly and more graceful than ever before... and that she really really wants to hear me sing again, to which I smiled and said, I just need to come and sing with you at your house!-she laughed at me and started talking to someone else.

Another said, Oh I want you to sing In Christ Alone!! and when I said well... I don't know... he said please don't make me beg!-then turned to his 3 year old son and said, tell Leah please please please!

Then one couple started telling everyone I was singing next week!-and I said who said that? They said, we are! We want you to sing next week!

And the music director said, well are you singing next week? I felt completely put on the spot...And I got really quiet and said, well I did want to talk to you. (I really had no idea what I was going to say to him) And he said in private? And I hesitated and said no, it's not that big of a deal. As the Lord reveals more truth to me.. I wrestle through different things, in prayer- not in a bad way by any means for God is most gracious to me, however, I cannot make any sort of commitment to sing right now. He gets very serious and concerned and says, Leah, God has given you talent and He will give that talent away to someone else if you don't use it. He will! I Just hope you will realize that before that happens. You need to use the gifts God has given you. If you do not use that talent, it will be taken away from you. I'll be praying for you.

Sigh. -_- I should have expected a plethora of people bombarding me this morning. I'm not sure my answer satisfied the music director, because now he thinks I'm just sinning.


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## black_rose (Sep 18, 2011)

That's a tough situation.. :/ 

I will be praying for you. I kindof know how hard it can be.. My mom came to me last week and wants me to sing "Jesus Take the Wheel" next Sunday during service.. She told me she actually based the music during the service around that song.  I suppose it was God's Providence that I can't find that cd, but found "If you Want me to" by Ginny Owens instead. I don't get begged to sing, though.

God will do a great work through you. As long as you know where you stand and don't waver in your faith, God will have his mighty and perfect will done.


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## bshpmark (Sep 18, 2011)

Leah: Its just the old "motivate people by using guilt trick." It's like telling people that if they do not tithe God will burn their house down or God will cause something else terrible to happen to them. You are in a tough spot. Just tell everyone you have a very contagious disease that is only spread by singing and out of your deep love for them you do not wish to infect them. (I am just kidding)


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## Dearly Bought (Sep 18, 2011)

God gives many gifts, but that doesn't mean that each is meant for use in the public worship of God. Your music minister is attempting to burden you with a completely unbiblical command. Please do not be pressured into violating your conscience.

You are to be commended for earnestly seeking God's will for His worship instead of assuming that you know what is best. I hope that you find the following story to be an encouragement:



> Imagine a hillbilly war hero, a man who led his troops victoriously in battle, who is going to be honored by his men after their return from war. His fellow officers, however, are from Evanston, Illinois; Berkeley, California; and Short Hills, New Jersey; and they don’t exactly understand their leader’s tastes. As they prepare a great banquet in his honor, they think of how he enjoys listening to music, and eating, and drinking. So, they have the best chamber orchestra, caviar, and champagne that money can buy, all prepared for him and his wife whom they have flown in from Kentucky. What’s wrong with this? Well, yes, he enjoys music, but he’d much prefer stomping his feet to the sounds of a banjo, a guitar, and a fiddle. Yes, he enjoys eating, but what’s this stuff called caviar? It’s black-eyed peas, grits, cornbread, and venison or squirrel meat which are his pleasure. Yes, he enjoys drinking, but champagne? His specialty is “Mountain Dew” (and we don’t, of course, mean the product from Pepsi-Cola). The obvious point is that, if they had really wanted to honor their hero, they would have found out about those things which pleased him and provided those for him, rather than trying to please him their own way. Similarly, if we truly want to please the Mighty Warrior who has effected our salvation, we will find out which things delight Him, and perform those things for Him.
> 
> (from Worship in the Presence of God)


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Sep 18, 2011)

I would be totally ashamed of myself if I were that music "minister." The ghost of Charles Finney still walks. I will pray for you, Leah.


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## py3ak (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm encouraged, Leah: it sounds like you were given grace to be kind to everyone and yet not say yes - both things we were hoping for. By the music director's logic, it would seem that a carpenter not busied about making church pews will lose his carpentry practice, a plumber not installing sprinkler systems for the church will find himself unable to use a socket wrench, and a hang-glider who doesn't print verses on his glider will inevitably crash. You don't need to be callous to realize that opinions unsubstantiated from the word of God have little claim to our regard, though the holder of the opinion is of course entitled to honor according to his calling and station.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 18, 2011)

Here are a few things that come to mind:

1. Ruben asks "*How can Leah get out of insistent requests to sing a solo without giving any needless aggravation or appearing to rebuke others*?" Perhaps I'm revealing a lack of faith here. (And I am praying for Leah and this situation.) But based on what has been posted, (and I thought this even prior to reading Leah's update of today's developments,) I'd be very surprised if there was _*any*_ way to say no to singing without causing aggravation or appearing to rebuke others. Those who are more "traditional minded" (meaning they do church the way they do b/c that's how it's always been done, how mama and daddy did it, etc.) will often take dissent and disagreement, however respectful, as a personal rebuke. "What, we're not good enough for her anymore?" etc. Or else it might be seen as some kind of spiritual problem. 

2. Let everyone be convinced in his/her own mind, but I would see it at least somewhat encouraging that someone asked Leah to sing "In Christ Alone." Some Semi-Pelagian Baptists would recoil at a song by artists who are coming from a basically Calvinistic perspective (although many are probably not aware of that.) At least it's a Christian song. "Jesus Take the Wheel" isn't. "God Bless America" which is often sung on July 4th, isn't a Christian song. Ironically, some are now blaming "contemporary songs" that kids learn via campus ministries or whatever for playing a big role in the "Reformed" resurgence among young people in the SBC as well as among some IFB's. I find that very interesting because less than 10 years ago I equated contemporary worship with Arminianism, Purpose Drivenism and Charismaticism. But it seems that there are more theologically rich songs now. 

3. Silence (and perhaps even equivocation) in these matters is often taken as consent. That's not to say that one should boldly make a stand when one is not fully convinced. But being convinced something is wrong and being pressured into it anyway is a different matter. (Some of us are of such a temperament that it's difficult to make a stand, especially one that doesn't involve a complete denial of the faith, when it seems everyone is against you.) It will signal that the one being pressured has come around to their way of thinking. (And this would be the same way with EP pro and con or any other similar disagreement over worship.) It's certainly a difficult situation when you're battling your family as well as the church. If this is the church that Leah grew up in, the folks are, from their point of view, simply trying to encourage her and do not understand the reason for the objection.

4. In this situation I would think the following is a hypothetical. (I can't remember Leah's particular situation, but I'm assuming that moving out is not an option at this point, short of marriage or going off to school.) But I would like the board's opinion about what point would the 5th Commandment come into play? In particular, just how far must an individual who has reached the age of majority yet remains in the home go in these matters in order to honor her parents? I would think that everyone would agree that a young person in such a situation who has been converted shouldn't attend Mass and shouldn't partake in it even if her parents said so. But what about a liberal church like the PCUSA where the gospel isn't preached and Christ is essentially mocked? Should one continue to attend there and even take some part in the ministry there? This is a more difficult situation because the church formally affirms the basics of Christian orthodoxy and it is a dispute between professing believers. (I'm not a fan of him generally, but Gary North was right when he wrote that Baptists by and large became Arminian instead of apostasizing from the faith, as have many Presbyterians, unfortunately.)


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## JennyG (Sep 18, 2011)

Dear little sister, you've been given a hard time, but as Ruben says you seem to have handled it very graciously! Of course many of these people may really believe you just want to be persuaded. 
But the music director oughtn't to have said what he did. 
The psalm says _if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget her cunning_. If you got up and sang when your conscience said no, *that*'s what would be forgetting Jerusalem - not what he said, or implied. 
Praying for you, like everyone else here


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## au5t1n (Sep 18, 2011)

Dearly Bought said:


> God gives many gifts, but that doesn't mean that each is meant for use in the public worship of God. Your music minister is attempting to burden you with a completely unbiblical command. Please do not be pressured into violating your conscience.





GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I would be totally ashamed of myself if I were that music "minister." The ghost of Charles Finney still walks. I will pray for you, Leah.


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## "William The Baptist" (Sep 18, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> Here are a few things that come to mind:
> 
> 1. Ruben asks "*How can Leah get out of insistent requests to sing a solo without giving any needless aggravation or appearing to rebuke others*?" Perhaps I'm revealing a lack of faith here. (And I am praying for Leah and this situation.) But based on what has been posted, (and I thought this even prior to reading Leah's update of today's developments,) I'd be very surprised if there was _*any*_ way to say no to singing without causing aggravation or appearing to rebuke others. Those who are more "traditional minded" (meaning they do church the way they do b/c that's how it's always been done, how mama and daddy did it, etc.) will often take dissent and disagreement, however respectful, as a personal rebuke. "What, we're not good enough for her anymore?" etc. Or else it might be seen as some kind of spiritual problem.
> 
> ...



Thanks Chris.  Actually, you have got a lot right. 

This is another shift: I just arrived home from church a few minutes ago and my dad asked how was church, and brother Kirtley's sermon and I told him I've been going to Christ Church (Pastor Greco's church, actually) for a month and a half or so at night. He got really offended and asked what was wrong with our church and what kind of church Christ church is. When I said it was Presbyterian he said going to two different churches can be confusing theologically (I agree) and I asked if he would prefer for me to just go to ONE. He said yes.

That being said he didn't specify WHICH church and up until this point I have not had a reason to stop going to church with them without causing a huge theological debate. That being said... I don't think I will need to worry about singing solos at their church since now I have no reason to continue going to church with them.

As for point number 4... that is something I would like to know too. Since being pressed, I will be consistent and go to one church, however, I don't see any reason to go THEIR church.

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------




austinww said:


> Dearly Bought said:
> 
> 
> > God gives many gifts, but that doesn't mean that each is meant for use in the public worship of God. Your music minister is attempting to burden you with a completely unbiblical command. Please do not be pressured into violating your conscience.
> ...



Thanks all three of you.  I felt the pressure and guilt thing and definitely understood that's what they were doing... Thank you for the prayers everyone.

Ruben, indeed. The Lord was very good in giving me the grace to answer kindly but not relent.


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## py3ak (Sep 18, 2011)

All right, Leah! I'm sure it will be very good for you to be in Pastor Greco's church for both services each Sunday.


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## jennywigg (Sep 18, 2011)

JBaldwin said:


> When I was struggling with all these things I simply told people the truth. I don't want to sing because....
> 
> Just an aside here, but I don't think there is anything wrong with very kindly telling people where you are in your walk with the Lord, and telling them how you feel. I remember several years ago, I asked a very talented young man to play the keyboard with the worship team, and he told me point blank, and very kindly, too, that he was working through his views on worshipping without instruments and until he came to a conclusion on the matter, he felt it was best for his conscience sake to not play. I really appreciated that.



I'm definitely not an authority on this, but I agree with this friend. There's nothing wrong with sweetly, respectfully, but _matter-of-factly _declining to sing and explaning why in some sort of succinct way.


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## JBaldwin (Sep 19, 2011)

Leah,

Shame on that music director for putting that kind of pressure on you! I do believe that when God has gifted someone, He does expect that person to use it, but under His direction, not the direction of others. I see an willingness on your part to do what God wants you to do, and He will show you the place where your talent is needed.


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## JoannaV (Sep 21, 2011)

"William The Baptist" said:


> He gets very serious and concerned and says, Leah, God has given you talent and He will give that talent away to someone else if you don't use it. He will! I Just hope you will realize that before that happens. You need to use the gifts God has given you. If you do not use that talent, it will be taken away from you. I'll be praying for you.



This is a common theme nowadays. Instead of the regulative principle, many churches think that _any _talent you have _should _be used in _corporate _worship. I doubt your music director thinks quite that way, but it is the logical conclusion to that kind of thinking.

Praying for you sister.


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