# regeneraction before faith



## johnny_redeemed (Aug 9, 2004)

I have a friend that calls himself a Calvinist. He agrees with every aspect of the five points except the fact that regeneration proceeds faith. He will say that God must do something to a sinner in order for that sinner to be saved and if God does this "thing" (which he will not name) to that sinner that sinner will be saved, must be saved and cannot run the risk of being anything but saved. Yet he does not call this "thing" God does regeneration or being born again or any of the many biblical phrases for this act. He thinks that regeneration and faith happen simultaneously. 

Is there any advice you can give to help in showing my friend that faith does proceed faith?


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 9, 2004)

Johnny,
The biblical historic position shows that regeneration precedes faith. I would begin by showing this friend that his premise is not what the church has historically embraced. Usually, this is enough..........Here are a few links referencing the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation).

http://www.semperreformanda.com/ordo.htm
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/ordosalutis.html
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc08/htm/ii.vii.htm


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## Ranger (Aug 9, 2004)

I think most of us would agree that it is instantaneous, and nearly simultaneous in many cases, but ultimately it is impossible for a person to have faith without the regeneration of the Spirit. How can a dead man have faith?


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## johnny_redeemed (Aug 9, 2004)

[quote:3548d054af="Ranger"]I think most of us would agree that it is instantaneous, and nearly simultaneous in many cases, but ultimately it is impossible for a person to have faith without the regeneration of the Spirit. [b:3548d054af] How can a dead man have faith?[/b:3548d054af][/quote:3548d054af]


he would agree that a dead man canNOT have faith. again he would say that God does something, but that something (which we call regeneration) he says is not regeneration.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 9, 2004)

[quote:d135da7535="Ranger"]I think most of us would agree that it is instantaneous, and nearly simultaneous in many cases, but ultimately it is impossible for a person to have faith without the regeneration of the Spirit. How can a dead man have faith?[/quote:d135da7535]

Kyle, I believe you have gone out on the proverbial dry limb. There is no way to support this claim. If you want to state that this is solely opinion, I would be fine with that. Other than that, one can only responsibly acknowledge that there are segments to salvation and in these segments only God knows the time frame between them. What may look simultaneous to our flesh may in fact be a conversion that has had seeds since the womb.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 9, 2004)

[quote:2286cd44ee="johnny_redeemed"][quote:2286cd44ee="Ranger"]I think most of us would agree that it is instantaneous, and nearly simultaneous in many cases, but ultimately it is impossible for a person to have faith without the regeneration of the Spirit. [b:2286cd44ee] How can a dead man have faith?[/b:2286cd44ee][/quote:2286cd44ee]


he would agree that a dead man canNOT have faith. again he would say that God does something, but that something (which we call regeneration) he says is not regeneration.


[/quote:2286cd44ee]

This gentleman is solely [i:2286cd44ee]redefining[/i:2286cd44ee] the ordo..........take him to the historic carpet and call his silly bluff. It's a bunch of semantical mumbo jumbo.


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## Ranger (Aug 9, 2004)

Yeah, you're right Scott in terms of them coming almost simultaneously. That is nothing more than a guess. Thanks for correcting me.

Scripture does seem to imply that regeneration is instantaneous though. Since regeneration changes our emotions and volitions, it would not make much since that this would be a process. Also, since God changes us apart from any means, it would also imply an instantaneous event. From darkness to light, death to life.

Spurgeon agreed " When a man is converted to God, it is done in a moment. Regeneration is an instantaneous work. Conversion to God, the fruit of regeneration, occupies all our life, but regeneration itself is effected in an instant. A man hates God-- the Holy Spirit makes him love God. A man is opposed to Christ, he hates his gospel, does not understand it and will not receive it-- the Holy Spirit comes, puts light into his darkened understanding, takes the chain from his bondaged will, gives liberty to his conscience, gives life to his dead soul, so that the voice of conscience is heard, and the man becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus.And all this is done, mark you, by the instantaneous supernatural influence of God the Holy Spirit working as he wills among the sons of men."

It does seem instantaneous to me, but I know that doesn't bear on what johnnyredeemed is saying.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 9, 2004)

[quote:882524c45f="Ranger"]Yeah, you're right Scott in terms of them coming almost simultaneously. That is nothing more than a guess. Thanks for correcting me.

Scripture does seem to imply that regeneration is instantaneous though. Since regeneration changes our emotions and volitions, it would not make much since that this would be a process. Also, since God changes us apart from any means, it would also imply an instantaneous event. From darkness to light, death to life.

Spurgeon agreed " When a man is converted to God, it is done in a moment. Regeneration is an instantaneous work. Conversion to God, the fruit of regeneration, occupies all our life, but regeneration itself is effected in an instant. A man hates God-- the Holy Spirit makes him love God. A man is opposed to Christ, he hates his gospel, does not understand it and will not receive it-- the Holy Spirit comes, puts light into his darkened understanding, takes the chain from his bondaged will, gives liberty to his conscience, gives life to his dead soul, so that the voice of conscience is heard, and the man becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus.And all this is done, mark you, by the instantaneous supernatural influence of God the Holy Spirit working as he wills among the sons of men."

It does seem instantaneous to me, but I know that doesn't bear on what johnnyredeemed is saying.[/quote:882524c45f]

Notice what Spurgeon said: "When a man is converted....". Conversion and regeneration are totally different things. Without conversion, regeneration will not bear fruit; it is much like a seed without water. Regeneration can occur in the womb, i.e John the Baptist, and conversion under faithful preaching (Rom 10:17) even years later.

Scripture indeed shows that [i:882524c45f]conversion[/i:882524c45f] is instantaneous. I believe that this is because that at the point of conversion, the heart is truly replaced with a heart of flesh.


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## Ranger (Aug 9, 2004)

Great point. Thanks for the insight.


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## johnny_redeemed (Aug 10, 2004)

scott
thanks for taking time to help me and ranger. i really am greatful for both of you. it is great to have a place like The Puritan Board where people who are like minded can talk and learn from eachother. again thanks to both of you.


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