# Have you ever experienced what Mark Driscoll experienced?



## ddharr

"At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."


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## ddharr

Maybe I can convince myself he was listening to Alexander Scourby reading the KJV on CD


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## torstar

Nothing like that.

But many times a little voice in my head has told me to grow up and wisen up and stop contemplating bad career moves.


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## Michael

Where is that quote from Darren?


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## ddharr

The above quote was found at http://assets.marshillchurch.org/files/misc/pages/pastor_mark_driscolls_biography.pdf


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## Michael

Interesting. Sounds a little like Augustine, doesn't it?


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## torstar

Has anyone who has not pleaded and prayed for a charismatic event in their life had it happen since the Apostolic Age?

(A plausible account.)

Do people just sit there on the bus to work, minding their own business, and get swept away?


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## Romans922

Sounds incorrect and not biblical.


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## Whitefield

didn't happen to me


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## Andres

back when I was a hard-core Pentecostal, I _thought _that I heard God speak to me on a few occasions. Turns out, it was just me thinking up things in my head. I have since repented for ascribing those wayward thoughts to our Father and I now am completely content knowing God speaks to me through the Scriptures.


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## Tripel

I don't know if that was God's voice speaking to Driscoll, but I sure am glad he listened!


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## VictorBravo

Maybe once, in hunting camp long ago. It was probably 5 AM and I distinctly heard a deep voice say, "Arise, Kill, and Eat."

But then again, it might have been the Baptist pastor in the next tent.


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## Leslie

Does audibly in this case mean that one could have captured it on a tape recorder? Or does it mean a voice is one's head, similar to when one is leaving the house and a "voice" says, "You are forgetting something."? If it's the latter, I don't find it strange or crazy at all. If the former, that's something else altogether.


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## VictorBravo

Leslie said:


> Does audibly in this case mean that one could have captured it on a tape recorder? Or does it mean a voice is one's head, similar to when one is leaving the house and a "voice" says, "You are forgetting something."? If it's the latter, I don't find it strange or crazy at all. If the former, that's something else altogether.


 
Same here, Mary. I hear voices all the time like that. . . . I just avoid telling people about them. Usually it has the distinct tone of my (now departed) Dad, and it usually says something like, "Quit yer slackin'" or "easy on that tool before you break something."


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## Fly Caster

Leslie said:


> Does audibly in this case mean that one could have captured it on a tape recorder? Or does it mean a voice is one's head, similar to when one is leaving the house and a "voice" says, "You are forgetting something."? If it's the latter, I don't find it strange or crazy at all. If the former, that's something else altogether.



Or is it something more akin to claiming a special calling that other poor saps who haven't heard God's audible voice cannot claim?

These kind of claims worry and irritate me. For one thing it sets a poor example for other young men considering the ministry-- putting greater worth on a supposed audible call than serious reflection and study.


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## timmopussycat

torstar said:


> Has anyone who has not pleaded and prayed for a charismatic event in their life had it happen since the Apostolic Age?
> 
> (A plausible account.)
> 
> Do people just sit there on the bus to work, minding their own business, and get swept away?


 
There are plenty of documented events that happend to folk that are similar to what you describe. But what makes those events "charismatic" or "non-charismatic" is not the events themselves, but the theological understanding by which those involved interpret what has happened i.e. whether the subject of the event possesses a "charismatic" power for use on call, or whether God has done something extraordinary either to or through them. 

See Ian Murray, _D. Martyn Lloyd Jones: The First Forty Years_ pp. 257-59 for an example of someone sitting on the bus minding their own business and having something odd happen which could have been understood as a "charismatic" event. Let me make it clear that those involved did not interpret what happened through the lens of charismatic teaching but rather as God doing something extraordinary.


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## moral necessity

It's these kinds of things that make me cautious regarding people like this. I don't think it wise to put something like that in one's bio, even if it is legit. Paul spoke of his experience, but it was to defend his apostleship and support the gospel as being genuine. What does knowing this about him accomplish, besides making others feel inferior who do not have similar experiences? It doesn't make me think his ministry any more legit. I'd give far more credence to one having their heart heavily inclined towards the ministry and a collective body of elders and laymen affirming that call.

Just my thoughts on the topic...


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## torstar

Thanks Tim.


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## Notthemama1984

moral necessity said:


> It's these kinds of things that make me cautious regarding people like this. I don't think it wise to put something like that in one's bio, even if it is legit. Paul spoke of his experience, but it was to defend his apostleship and support the gospel as being genuine. What does knowing this about him accomplish, besides making others feel inferior who do not have similar experiences? It doesn't make me think his ministry any more legit. I'd give far more credence to one having their heart heavily inclined towards the ministry and a collective body of elders and laymen affirming that call.
> 
> Just my thoughts on the topic...


 
I am sure that many would have preferred that Paul been chosen in the upper room by the rest of the apostles, but God in His sovereign will chose otherwise. The same could be said with Mark.

I would also point out that the article doesn't say that a church body never affirmed his call. It is silent on the issue.


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## jwithnell

The writer of Hebrews states that in these last days, God has spoken to His Son (1:2) and the Apostle John states that it is "I, Jesus have sent my angel to testify to these things then follows a few verses later with a stern warning against adding to these words (Rev. 22). It is for these reasons, among others, that I not only think that audible words with general life experiences are unlikely, but they can hinder faith potentially leading people to seek something other than the great hope of the gospel. I have heard many young Christians despair that they have not had these kinds of experiences -- and spend endless hours discussing and seeking these experiences rather than carefully attending to the teaching of the scriptures. God has given us his word in Jesus, has carefully overseen its inscription and transmission down through the ages, and enlightens it via the Holy Spirit.


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## AThornquist

I have no problem with someone saying that they _believe_ God spoke to them, or they were strongly under the impression that God did so, but rarely (if ever) should such a claim bear any authority in the lives of others. For example, a pastor of mine back home had a similar experience to Driscoll, except he was a cowboy in the middle of Wyoming when he believes the Lord told Him to leave his love of cowboying and to become a pastor. This pastor is a _cessationist_ and a godly man, and he has told me that he would never use that experience to dictate the opinions or actions of others; however, since he could only conclude that it was the Lord directing him, he chose to obey. I think these things really happen, but again with a subjective experience these happenings must not be claimed to "definitely" be from God and therefore be directive in the lives of people other than the one who had the experience. Also, they aren't normative. These ought not weaken the faith of brothers who don't have such an experience; it is irregular and unrelated to the Christian's firm standing with the Father through Christ, and we have access through prayer that is affective and powerful, and this means of communication and transformation _is_ normal for us.


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## Jeffriesw

ddharr said:


> "At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."


 
No I have not.


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## Christopher88

This is one area in which I can't debate but do not take a solid stance on. Many reformers and Christians in general deny charismatic gifts/encounters. Yet the argument against it is rather vague with scripture proof. No where does scripture say all these things which were of the Apostles time will cease in the later. No where in scripture does it say that. 
Now I'm not saying that view is wrong, but I don't think I can say its right either. 
I'm interested in this view, and why it splits even reformed circles.


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## he beholds

Tripel said:


> I don't know if that was God's voice speaking to Driscoll, but I sure am glad he listened!


 


AThornquist said:


> I have no problem with someone saying that they _believe_ God spoke to them, or they were strongly under the impression that God did so, but rarely (if ever) should such a claim bear any authority in the lives of others. For example, a pastor of mine back home had a similar experience to Driscoll, except he was a cowboy in the middle of Wyoming when he believes the Lord told Him to leave his love of cowboying and to become a pastor. This pastor is a _cessationist_ and a godly man, and he has told me that he would never use that experience to dictate the opinions or actions of others; however, since he could only conclude that it was the Lord directing him, he chose to obey. I think these things really happen, but again with a subjective experience these happenings must not be claimed to "definitely" be from God and therefore be directive in the lives of people other than the one who had the experience. Also, they aren't normative. These ought not weaken the faith of brothers who don't have such an experience; it is irregular and unrelated to the Christian's firm standing with the Father through Christ, and we have access through prayer that is affective and powerful, and this means of communication and transformation _is_ normal for us.


 
My guess would be that God, knowing our separate personalities, allows some of us to feel like we've heard him, if that's what we need in order to actually hear him. I cringe a little when people talk of God speaking to them, but I think that really what's happening to them is the same as what happens to me when I weigh and make a decision. And sometimes, like in the Driscoll case, "inspiration" will strike or a thought that I wasn't weighing will suddenly pop up and seem like a good choice, too. I just don't attribute that to God's voice, though I do recognize that his hand was fully in that thought or event occurring.


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## AThornquist

I actually wasn't very accurate when I said that "I have no problem" with someone saying things like this. Generally, I also cringe (and don't believe it). However, depending _on the person_ who says they heard God speak, I'm not troubled by it. I mentioned the pastor back home--I believe him whole-heartedly because I know how he handles the Word of God and how he would never even bring up the situation if he wasn't quite convinced it was of God. That's what I meant to say, though I was unclear: I have no problem with certain people saying they heard the voice of God.


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## Andres

Leslie said:


> Does audibly in this case mean that one could have captured it on a tape recorder? Or does it mean a voice is one's head, similar to when one is leaving the house and a "voice" says, "You are forgetting something."? If it's the latter, I don't find it strange or crazy at all. If the former, that's something else altogether.



The definition I find for audible reads, "capable of being heard; loud enough to be heard; actually heard". This lends to the former of your examples being the case. However...I would contend that even if Driscoll (or anyone) would attempt to argue the latter, that it is still a most egregious claim. The reason being is that the quote said, "*God *spoke audibly to him [Driscoll]..." Even if we rationalize that it was merely an "inner voice" or personal thoughts inside his head, the fact of the matter is that Driscoll is still attributing those thoughts directly to the Almighty. This is a huge problem because it takes away from the authority of Scripture and it makes God subjective. If God speaks to each of us personally, how can we ever say if what He says is true or not?


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## au5t1n

This puts the rest of us in the awkward position of wondering why God didn't tell Driscoll to start a _Presbyterian_ church. Just one more audible word is all it would have taken! =]


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## Michael

Do those who take issue with Driscoll on this have the same problem with Augustine? Just curious.


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## AThornquist

Andres said:


> If God speaks to each of us personally, how can we ever say if what He says is true or not?



God spoke to people in the past, and they apparently didn't have that issue.


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## Andres

Sonny said:


> No where does scripture say all these things which were of the Apostles time will cease in the later. No where in scripture does it say that.



I respectfully disagree. While there may not be an explicit verse that says, "There will no longer be special revelation or tongues or prophecy after the Apostolic age", if one understands what the purpose of these gifts were - to confirm the authority of the Apostles and to establish the church - then one can effectively conclude that these gifts are no longer in place. Also, we have the God's complete revelation to us in the canon of Scripture. The early church did not have this complete canon and therefore gifts were necessary.

Lastly, I'm curious to know how each of you who defend men hearing from God via personal revelation reconcile this belief with our confession which states, 


> Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; *those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.* WCF 1.1


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## AThornquist

austinww said:


> This puts the rest of us in the awkward position of wondering why God didn't tell Driscoll to start a Presbyterian church. Just one more audible word is all it would have taken! =]



lol. I might have some ideas why.


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## Notthemama1984

Andres said:


> Lastly, I'm curious to know how each of you who defend men hearing from God via personal revelation reconcile this belief with our confession which states,



I plead ignorance on the audible voice of God, but in my mind if God were to speak to one audibly it would be as he did with Paul. Paul had a supernatural experience and God told him something very specific, "Go here and wait for my preacher." Even with this experience, God did not circumvent the Scriptures or His preachers. So if God were to speak to someone, it would be to point them to the Scriptures and His preachers. 

This is the only way that I believe the two can be reconciled.


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## he beholds

Michael said:


> Do those who take issue with Driscoll on this have the same problem with Augustine? Just curious.


 
The only story I remember about Augustine is something like kids singing "Tolle Lege" and that striking him as being told to start reading the Bible. I DO think that God uses circumstances in our lives to reach us, so maybe that's a difference?


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## Kevin

Not me. But then I am not Mark Driscoll.


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## MW

I don't invalidate the experience but simply describe it by different terms -- terms which are informed by a well considered and balanced theology of Word and Spirit.


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## Christopher88

Andres said:


> I respectfully disagree. While there may not be an explicit verse that says, "There will no longer be special revelation or tongues or prophecy after the Apostolic age", if one understands what the purpose of these gifts were - to confirm the authority of the Apostles and to establish the church - then one can effectively conclude that these gifts are no longer in place. Also, we have the God's complete revelation to us in the canon of Scripture. The early church did not have this complete canon and therefore gifts were necessary.



Thank you for your disagreement. Your post was one to further my thoughts. 

I am highly uneducated on this subject. By any chance do you have a good laymen (reformed) book recommendation for this subject?


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## Caroline

I am totally with Andres on this one. The Bible does explicitly say that the former ways are now ceased. If we were still receiving revelation like that, shouldn't someone be writing it down and adding it to the Scripture? But even Charismatics and Pentecostals don't think they should--they know that there is only about a 50-50 chance that it works out. If it works out, they will say that it was the voice of God, and if it doesn't ... well, then it gets quietly dropped and everyone pretends they don't remember 'God' saying that.

I think Mark Driscoll puts this up because it worked out for him. But nearly everyone who has ever thought they 'heard from God' has heard 'God' tell them to marry their current love interest and start a big ministry. If you don't believe me on that, please head down to your local Pentecostal church, and you will likely hear someone get that 'word' within 30 minutes or so. And, yes, at various points in my Pentecostal life, I believed that I heard God tell me to marry Mike, Leo, Jay, and Jonathan (depending on whom I was dating at the moment) and start a ministry.  It's what Pentecostals do.


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## py3ak

Caroline said:


> And, yes, at various points in my Pentecostal life, I believed that I heard God tell me to marry Mike, Leo, Jay, and Jonathan (depending on whom I was dating at the moment) and start a ministry. It's what Pentecostals do.



May I just speak for your husband here and say we're glad you didn't listen?


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## jwithnell

The WCF is pretty clear on this:


> "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added ... "



It acknowledges illumination: how else would we understand anything in the scriptures with our own sinful mind. But illumination and deduction are different than the Lord specifically talking to someone. What if someone else claimed that God told him to marry the same woman? Which would have greater authority, what I hear or what you hear? This kind of subjective "word" completely undermines the authority of God's revealed Word.


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## Christopher88

I was walking today and some thoughts came to mind; 
If God just speaks through scripture (Verbally) than where does one get the idea of, "I feel called to ministry or such and such." 
If God's does not speak in other means outside of scripture, where does the spirit of God come into action today? 
Does God operate with other means outside of scripture? I think we would be foolish to answer no. So if God can operate or does operate outside of scripture, why does he not communicate through dreams or voices anymore? 

I'm not saying that God gives new revelation for that is not the case at all. There is no need for new revelation, but for a saints personal life there would be need for a revelation of truth that can be matched by the word. Correct? 

Just throwing some thoughts out there, looking forward to the responses.


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## Bill The Baptist

I may take a beating for saying this, but I personally think that Mark Driscoll represents everything that is wrong with the reformed movement today.


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## kodos

Bill The Baptist said:


> I may take a beating for saying this, but I personally think that Mark Driscoll represents everything that is wrong with the reformed movement today.



I agree to a point. But I have a hard time thinking that anyone who doesn't subscribe to a Reformed Confession is ... Reformed. Just because you like the soteriology found in TULIP doesn't actually make you Reformed.


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## jwithnell

> If God just speaks through scripture (Verbally) than where does one get the idea of, "I feel called to ministry or such and such."
> If God's does not speak in other means outside of scripture, where does the spirit of God come into action today?


 I understand wisdom to be the application of God's word in your day-to-day life. We are equipped to do this by the illumination given by the Holy Spirit as we seek understanding both privately and in corporate worship. Prospective officers in the church should have more than a gut feeling about God's role for them: they should be measuring themselves against the relevant passages and others should be recognizing their ability and maturity and encouraging them. I'm not discounting that we can have deep feelings and emotions in our relationship with God; I would despair not to have this communion. But for guidance? Give me His word, or counsel from someone who is steeped in this knowledge.


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## Rook

"If you want to hear from God, read your Bible; if you want to audibly hear from God, read your Bible out loud." - Justin Peters

I am not discounting that something like this could take place, but it is abnormal and out of God's ordinary means of communicating truth to us. Some of us actually have to pray about who we marry; asking God for wisdom, and walking by faith that God knows how to give his children good gifts. 

Plus, I may find myself 90 and single if I begin waiting for some audible voice to make that known. Faith doesn't work like that my friends. Did this happen, maybe, but will it happen to most? No.

Maybe Mark just didn't have the guts to ask her on a date, so he needed to give himself as excuse that he heard the voice of God to gain some confidence.


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## Michael

Nice piece by John Piper on this subject...

The Morning I Heard the Voice of God - Desiring God


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## Bill The Baptist

kodos said:


> I agree to a point. But I have a hard time thinking that anyone who doesn't subscribe to a Reformed Confession is ... Reformed. Just because you like the soteriology found in TULIP doesn't actually make you Reformed.



You are exactly right, and to broaden my comment, I would say that Driscoll represents everything that is wrong with Christianity in general today. Obsession with culture, molding theology to fit your sensibilities, a driving need to be relevant and hip, a misguided desire to grow your own church to an astronimical size instead of planting new churches, etc. I realize that Mars Hill has close to twenty locations, but Driscoll is pastor of them all, so that is not really a new church.


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## ddharr

Bill The Baptist said:


> I may take a beating for saying this, but I personally think that Mark Driscoll represents everything that is wrong with the reformed movement today.



How is Mars Hill not a cult? Your giving him more credit than I would by associating him with "reformed"

"In my own life, I occasionally receive prophetic dreams, where God tells me about people and circumstances in the future that ultimately come to pass just like God said. Occasionally, just a few occasions, I've had God audibly speak to me. As far as I know, I've never been visited by an angel. But I do, and we do believe, in these kinds of supernatural, miraculous ways that God specially reveals."
(Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine part 2 - What is Revelation?)

"I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married." 
(Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------

The Watchman's Bagpipes: Mark Driscoll - A Preacher to Avoid


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## earl40

armourbearer said:


> I don't invalidate the experience but simply describe it by different terms -- terms which are informed by a well considered and balanced theology of Word and Spirit.


 
Pastor Winzer, may I ask what your simple description would be? Of course I asked. So will you do so here?


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## Andres

Sonny said:


> If God just speaks through scripture (Verbally) than where does one get the idea of, "I feel called to ministry or such and such."


Where does the calling for any vocation come from? I think it's based on the skills, qualifications, and desires of a man. If a man has a strong desire for ministry, then he would probably consider a call to ministry. But it by no means stops there. You might find helpful to read the PCA's BCO on the process for a man to come under care, become licensed, and eventually become ordained. It is a process. A process that spans several years. There is extensive training required. I say that to say that if a man feels called to ministry, the process includes that man working closely with his local session and presbytery. Those men would have to confirm the calling that the man aspiring to ministry puts forth. If the local session and presbytery do not feel the man is worthy of the calling or is simply not qualified, then that man shouldn't achieve ordination. So I would say that God uses the presbytery as the means to confirm the calling of a minister. 



Sonny said:


> If God's does not speak in other means outside of scripture, where does the spirit of God come into action today?


 From WCF 1.6 6.


> The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, *we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word*: and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.


 The Spirit illuminates the truth of Scripture to us. This is not at all the same thing as "speaking" to us apart from Scripture. 



Sonny said:


> Does God operate with other means outside of scripture? I think we would be foolish to answer no. So if God can operate or does operate outside of scripture, why does he not communicate through dreams or voices anymore?


 I'm not really clear on what you mean by asking if God operates "outside of Scripture". I feel like this is a trick question of sorts (not that you are asking it with the intention of tricking anyone), in that it's a bit ambiguous. As for why He doesn't use dreams or voices for direct revelation any more, see my answer in post #32 as to why the canon is now closed and special revelation is no longer necessary. 



Sonny said:


> I'm not saying that God gives new revelation for that is not the case at all. There is no need for new revelation, but for a saints personal life there would be need for a revelation of truth that can be matched by the word. Correct?


 This is a very common Pentecostal answer. They will generally always argue that when God speaks to them that it has to be something that "lines up with Scripture", but I would contend that if God is sharing something with you that can be matched by the Scriptures, then why is it necessary for Him to speak to you? Love this quote from John Owen - "If private 'revelations' agree with scripture, they are needless, and if they disagree, they are false".


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## sevenzedek

Some here might enjoy the book entitled, Decision Making and the Will of God, by Gary Frieson. Also, I believe this RBS article entitled, The Cessation of Special Revelation would be very informative for some: The Cessation of Special Revelation: A Humble Argument for the Cessation of NT Prophecy and Tongues, Part 1 | RBS Tabletalk


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## Bill The Baptist

ddharr said:


> The Watchman's Bagpipes: Mark Driscoll - A Preacher to Avoid



Wow! I always felt that something was seriously off about Driscoll, but I had no idea. It really makes me question the judgment of men like John Piper who support Driscoll. On the other hand, It reaffirms why I love John Macarthur so much. If he would just let go of that dispensational junk then I would move to California.


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## AThornquist

ddharr said:


> How is Mars Hill not a cult? Your giving him more credit than I would by associating him with "reformed"
> 
> "In my own life, I occasionally receive prophetic dreams, where God tells me about people and circumstances in the future that ultimately come to pass just like God said. Occasionally, just a few occasions, I've had God audibly speak to me. As far as I know, I've never been visited by an angel. But I do, and we do believe, in these kinds of supernatural, miraculous ways that God specially reveals."
> (Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine part 2 - What is Revelation?)
> 
> "I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married."
> (Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)



What kind of definition of "cult" is that? There are godly men who believe they have received prophetic dreams or have been under the impression that God spoke to them, but that by no means that they are not pursuing God or are somehow in a cult. There are people firmly within the Reformed camp who have had such experiences.


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## Prufrock

*[Moderator]*
As this is, indeed, "The PuritanBoard," it is a matter of course that our members will find certain practices from churches (such as MH) objectionable and out of accord with the standards we profess. This is perfectly acceptable, and we should not shy away from it: and, accordingly, when people desire information about where the traditional reformed faith and praxis differs from current church practices, let us discuss these things plainly. *But please refrain* from sweeping generalizations, especially when they are about persons, not teachings. As a moderator, I kindly ask that statements such as "[this man] represents all that is wrong with Christianity" be discontinued. Where a teacher or church diverges from our faith and practice, state it plainly; but please use caution with the tenor and manner of posts when they are about persons.
*[/Moderator]*


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## BlackCalvinist

Andres said:


> I respectfully disagree. While there may not be an explicit verse that says, "There will no longer be special revelation or tongues or prophecy after the Apostolic age", if one understands what the purpose of these gifts were - to confirm the authority of the Apostles and to establish the church - then one can effectively conclude that these gifts are no longer in place. Also, we have the God's complete revelation to us in the canon of Scripture. The early church did not have this complete canon and therefore gifts were necessary.




No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture. 

I agree with Sonny on this one. And for the record, I'm not a charismatic.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

In addition, all of the Mars Hill business (and I do mean all of it) has been dealt with a while back. Search for the thread on here. Most criticisms of Driscoll in 2008 (since that article was written in January of 09) don't apply as of late 2009, since several people (Piper, CJ, others) have pulled him to the side and counseled him. He's turned from some crude things he's said in the past (i.e. he did a much better series on the Song of Solomon and removed the old ones that were crass). 

Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.


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## AThornquist

BlackCalvinist said:


> In addition, all of the Mars Hill business (and I do mean all of it) has been dealt with a while back. Search for the thread on here. Most criticisms of Driscoll in 2008 (since that article was written in January of 09) don't apply as of late 2009, since several people (Piper, CJ, others) have pulled him to the side and counseled him. He's turned from some crude things he's said in the past (i.e. he did a much better series on the Song of Solomon and removed the old ones that were crass).
> 
> Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.


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## ddharr

AThornquist said:


> What kind of definition of "cult" is that? There are godly men who believe they have received prophetic dreams or have been under the impression that God spoke to them, but that by no means that they are not pursuing God or are somehow in a cult. There are people firmly within the Reformed camp who have had such experiences.



Sorry for the confusion. I was not trying to define cult with the quotes, but rather clarify what Driscoll teaches byusing his own quotes. My question remains How is Mars Hill not a cult?


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## AThornquist

ddharr said:


> Sorry for the confusion. I was not trying to define cult with the quotes, but rather clarify what Driscoll teaches byusing his own quotes. My question remains How is Mars Hill not a cult?



Okay. For one thing though, it is _abundantly_ clear that he does not talk about this issue much. Even if one disagrees with the given quotes, there is a plethora of orthodoxy that you and I would agree with. Your question, "How is Mars Hill not a cult?" confuses me because it hasn't been established that it _is_ a cult. What marks would give it that serious name? I would say that Mars Hill isn't a cult because it does not have the marks of a cult. That simple. There is no reason for me to think that it is one.


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## Frosty

For a two year time period I thought that I heard voices speaking to me as I was asleep/falling asleep. Yes, I audibly heard these voices from time to time, but only as I was dozing off. The voices I heard, for some reason, ALWAYS sounded like a conversation was going on between my roommate and John Madden. Sometimes, the sound of a video game controller was heard banging off the floor. Not sure what these voices were trying to communicate to me. It was really odd.

Wait a minute..................


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## MW

earl40 said:


> Pastor Winzer, may I ask what your simple description would be? Of course I asked. So will you do so here?


 
As simply as possible, I would suggest that "clear and convincing" direction from a caring and sovereign Father is a spiritual desire of a true child of God. That direction can be ministered by the Spirit in such an active and effective way that it is equal to hearing the voice of God; hence it is called in Scripture the spirit of wisdom and revelation. The work of the Spirit, however, is always conjoined to His Word. The Word is necessary (1) to form the conceptual basis upon which all direction is received, (2) to test what is received to see if it truly comes from God, and (3) to minister the assurance that God's blessing will accompany obedience. In the absence of the first, the individual is being governed and led by ignorance and superstition (dumb idols). Where there is no inclination to engage in the second, the individual is hardly displaying the characteristics of a child of God who is in submission to the will of the Father but is open to be deceived by any and every thing. Finally, without the third, the whole process is fruitless and a denial of the sovereignty God exercises over His own creation.


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## seajayrice

Would an audible word from God be analogous to biblical imagery on your French Toast?


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## Ivan

ddharr said:


> "At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."



Thankfully, no.


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## Fly Caster

.


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## Andres

BlackCalvinist said:


> No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.



Okay, then show me where in scripture is explicitly says the sign gifts of the apostolic church are to continue today. It's similar to the baptism debate in that there is no _explicit _command or forbidding of either the credo or paedo position. Instead we arrive to our position by examining the whole of scripture and understanding the purpose of baptism. When one examines the whole of scripture (and not just what the apostles are doing in the book of Acts) and understands the purpose for the gifts to the early church, then one will conclude that they have ceased, just as our confession states.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 AM ----------

I'd also like to know from anyone who believes that we "hear" directly from God today outside of the scriptures, when one hears a voice, why does one assume it to be God? How does one know who it is at all? How do we know it's not our own conscience or even the devil. I ask in all seriousness because I believe this subjectivity presents a major problem.

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------




BlackCalvinist said:


> Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.



Thank you for this reminder brother. I agree with you here, but I think it's only fair to also say that threads/posts positing anti-confessional teachings get old just as quickly.


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## timmopussycat

Andres said:


> I'd also like to know from anyone who believes that we "hear" directly from God today outside of the scriptures, when one hears a voice, why does one assume it to be God? How does one know who it is at all? How do we know it's not our own conscience or even the devil. I ask in all seriousness because I believe this subjectivity presents a major problem.


 
Indeed the question of subjectivity does present problems in this area, and if those issues are not properly handled the resulting problems can be truly severe. 

I haven't moved in charismatic circles for almost 20 years now, but while I was there I had some experience with the phenomena of strong subjective impressions and even audible voices. One of the marks that distinguishes what I call the charismaniacs on the one hand from the more biblical charismatics (such as people like Michael Green in the UK and Fee in the US together with those uncertain evangelicals such as Piper who hold that charismatic manifestations may be possible today), comes right here. The charismaniacs will not apply the biblical injunction to test the "leading" they have received against Scriptures while the more biblical group will follow the biblical injunction to do so. In practice, in the case of "hearing" an allegedly "divine" call to the ministry, this will mean testing what one think one hears against both the Scriptural requirements for the position-do I have them? and receiving confirmation by others that, yes, one does have those requirements–either fully grown or at least visibly present in embryo–to others in one's circle.


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## Mushroom

Does God communicate with His children by any means other than His Word today?


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## DeborahtheJudge

> "I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. *And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married."*
> (Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)



I'd dump a guy if he said that to me.


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## Iconoclast

I was driving around the southern part of Oklahoma this week.[not far from Joshua].... On the radio one guy claimed god told Him to raise the dead.A guy collapsed at the meeting,they called 911...they were told he was dead....the man prayed and he rose up....
Right after that another guy said he was caught up to heaven in a tornado....saw the holy city, 70 foot angels, had casual conversation with them,etc.
The host never questioned a thing....just kept saying..and then what...
I do not remember any scripture being used at all....[what a surprise]
Some of these current popular men....Driscoll, Maheny, Piper,Grudem who offer these open door anecdotal accounts are not doing us an favors. The followers can and do drift to the false ideas, because they do not develop a hunger for the word of truth by and large.


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## Gloria

BlackCalvinist said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. While there may not be an explicit verse that says, "There will no longer be special revelation or tongues or prophecy after the Apostolic age", if one understands what the purpose of these gifts were - to confirm the authority of the Apostles and to establish the church - then one can effectively conclude that these gifts are no longer in place. Also, we have the God's complete revelation to us in the canon of Scripture. The early church did not have this complete canon and therefore gifts were necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.
> 
> I agree with Sonny on this one. And for the record, I'm not a charismatic.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------
> 
> In addition, all of the Mars Hill business (and I do mean all of it) has been dealt with a while back. Search for the thread on here. Most criticisms of Driscoll in 2008 (since that article was written in January of 09) don't apply as of late 2009, since several people (Piper, CJ, others) have pulled him to the side and counseled him. He's turned from some crude things he's said in the past (i.e. he did a much better series on the Song of Solomon and removed the old ones that were crass).
> 
> Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.
Click to expand...


Amen.


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## BlackCalvinist

Andres said:


> BlackCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, then show me where in scripture is explicitly says the sign gifts of the apostolic church are to continue today.
Click to expand...


Wrong approach. What you've done is ask for scripture to be conformed to what YOU want it to say in order for a particular position to be true rather than taking what scripture says about a topic in total and then shaping your beliefs around it. 

There is no direct _or indirect_ passages of scripture that state that ANY of the gifts have ceased. There is only inference regarding the cessation of any of the gifts. The question is: is your inference biblical ? 



> It's similar to the baptism debate in that there is no _explicit _command or forbidding of either the credo or paedo position.



I disagree here too. I think 1 Cor. 7's 'children being unholy, but now they are clean' and Matthew 28's 'make disciples of all nations, baptizing them' directly and explicitly teach and infer covenant infant baptism. What else are you going to raise your child as other than a disciple ? Baptize disciples. Plain and simple.


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## au5t1n

DeborahtheJudge said:


> "I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. *And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married."*
> (Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd dump a guy if he said that to me.
Click to expand...

 
 Yeah, I knew a guy who told a girl this and she said "Well, he didn't tell me," and he ended up marrying someone else. There is nothing to be gained from saying this. Even supposing it were true, telling her just puts pressure on her not to properly "vet" him because she's apparently called by God to marry him.


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## Osage Bluestem

ddharr said:


> "At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."


 
That's never happened to me, but I believe him because God has indeed blessed his ministry and he has been faithful to the scriptures.


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## Bill The Baptist

Osage Bluestem said:


> That's never happened to me, but I believe him because God has indeed blessed his ministry and he has been faithful to the scriptures.



Does that mean that we should believe Joel Osteen as well because God has clearly blessed his ministry with 25000 members.


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## Osage Bluestem

Bill The Baptist said:


> Osage Bluestem said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's never happened to me, but I believe him because God has indeed blessed his ministry and he has been faithful to the scriptures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that we should believe Joel Osteen as well because God has clearly blessed his ministry with 25000 members.
Click to expand...

 
did you read the part that came after "and"


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## Bill The Baptist

Osage Bluestem said:


> did you read the part that came after "and"



Clearly Mark Driscoll is more theologically sound than Osteen, although based on some of the things I have read on this thread he is also not completely orthodox. Regardless, my argument was with your premise that having a large and successful ministry neccesarily means that God has "blessed" you. You might argue back that the blessing only comes with being faithful to the scriptures, but there are plently of faithful, godly pastors out there with congregations of less than 100 people. Is God not blessing them?


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## Osage Bluestem

Bill The Baptist said:


> Osage Bluestem said:
> 
> 
> 
> did you read the part that came after "and"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly Mark Driscoll is more theologically sound than Osteen, although based on some of the things I have read on this thread he is also not completely orthodox. Regardless, my argument was with your premise that having a large and successful ministry neccesarily means that God has "blessed" you. You might argue back that the blessing only comes with being faithful to the scriptures, but there are plently of faithful, godly pastors out there with congregations of less than 100 people. Is God not blessing them?
Click to expand...

 
By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.


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## torstar

I just take this kind of talk as charismatic blather, the folks in the pews love to hear it and hoot and holler. 

Never thought for a second he might be serious.


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## Bill The Baptist

Osage Bluestem said:


> By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.



To be honest, I have no problem with his theology. I have heard him speak and he is generally very sound doctrinally speaking. My problem has more to do with his methodology of embracing the world and its culture rather than calling Christians to be above culture. You mention him bringing people to Christ, but as John Macarthur said, "What you win them with is what you win them to." Are the people in his church really listening to him? Or are they just there for the free coffee and the hip music and dress? I sincerely hope that the answer is the former. As it says in James 4:4"Adulterers and adultresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?"


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## torstar

I have never heard Mark speak or preach without him bringing forward Christ and Him crucified or the need to repent and trust.

I don't get his church, his overall methods, his demeanour, but he's on our side of the volleyball net.


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## Osage Bluestem

Bill The Baptist said:


> Osage Bluestem said:
> 
> 
> 
> By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I have no problem with his theology. I have heard him speak and he is generally very sound doctrinally speaking. My problem has more to do with his methodology of embracing the world and its culture rather than calling Christians to be above culture. You mention him bringing people to Christ, but as John Macarthur said, "What you win them with is what you win them to." Are the people in his church really listening to him? Or are they just there for the free coffee and the hip music and dress? I sincerely hope that the answer is the former. As it says in James 4:4"Adulterers and adultresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?"
Click to expand...

 
Them being exposed to this is far better than being exposed to whatever they would be exposed to if they weren't in his building: YouTube - We Don't Need Religion, We Need Jesus

I hope they hear. That's up to God though.


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## Fogetaboutit

> Thank you for your disagreement. Your post was one to further my thoughts.
> 
> I am highly uneducated on this subject. By any chance do you have a good laymen (reformed) book recommendation for this subject?



I found this book helpfull

_Charismatics and the Word of God: A Biblical and Historical Perspective on the Charismatic Movement (by Victor Budgen)_


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## TomVols

Would anyone say God has led you do to something? That is in some way a form of God "speaking" through circumstances, etc.

I don't necessarily believe God still "speaks" because of the sufficiency of the Word.

Has God ever spoken audibly to me? No. He's "spoken" much louder than that


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## sdesocio

Here is a similar instances of a directed command from God cited by RC Sproul 

"I didn’t hear any voices, but an idea went sharply through my head. I found out later that the words were from Scripture which I had never read. “Fear not, for I am with you.” As soon as those went through my head, I was enveloped with a sense of total calm. The next thought that went through my head was “Go throughout the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature.” The next thought was “Take Vesta [R.C.’s future wife] with you. “ I decided at that moment to be a minister even though I wasn’t a believer. I didn’t become a Christian until my first year in college."


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## J. Dean

Andres said:


> back when I was a hard-core Pentecostal, I _thought _that I heard God speak to me on a few occasions. Turns out, it was just me thinking up things in my head. I have since repented for ascribing those wayward thoughts to our Father and I now am completely content knowing God speaks to me through the Scriptures.


 
+10
Pentecostalism can be very misleading. There is a lot of emphasis on the "experiential" side, and that something might be wrong with you if God is not audibly speaking to you about things. To be frank, it flirts with putting emotions and feelings equal to, or greater than, the Holy Scriptures.

And the sad thing is that it's not just in pentecostalism. I'm seeing things like this in other denominations as well. Beth Moore (a Southern Baptist teacher with questionable presentations) implies that she has had many direct revelations from God, and in light of her mishandling of the scriptures in some of her lessons, that's very troubling.

To be frank, whenever somebody says "God told me.." or says anything else along those lines, I start to cringe. My first urge is to reply, "Are you sure that what you've heard is in line with the whole of Scripture?"


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