# Wrestling with RPW



## Jared (Nov 23, 2011)

I am still having some trouble with RPW. Coming from a Pentecostal perspective, it is hard for me to let go of the things I have experienced in worship that a strict interpretation of the RPW would exclude.

For instance, some Pentecostal and Charismatic churches use solid colored flags during worship. People simply wave them as they worship and use them as a tool for worship. I have engaged in this practice in the past. However, I am aware that there is no specific scripture commanding this practice.

There are other issues that I have. 

What's wrong with dancing during worship? Whether liturgical or extemporaneous, as far as I can tell, both are present in scripture. In the New Testament in the book of Acts, the man that is healed by the gate Beautiful gets up "dancing and leaping and praising God". I know that some who come from a very rigid church background might be horrified to see someone dance during worship and that would never happen in their church anyway so they don't even have to work through that issue other than in hypothetical ways.

What would prevent us from using stuff from Old Testament worship like shofars and prayer shawls? That might sound silly to some Reformed people but many Charismatic churches make use of those kinds of things.

These are all things that I practically grew up with and have experienced myself in one way or another and it's not easy for me to let go of nor am I sure that I want to.

One of the weightier arguments for me against a strict interpretation of RPW is that compared to a Pentecostal or Charismatic worship service, a "truly Reformed" worship service feels much less free. I was always taught that we are set free during worship and that intimacy with God is very important and intimacy with God in worship is one of the goals of worship.

Also, it would seem to me that especially a very strict Psalms only approach to worship would limit our creativity and thereby limit the ways in which we can glorify God by using our creativity. Since we are created in the image of God and God is our Creator and He is very creative then this would seem to me to be another very persuasive argument against.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. I know that I might get in trouble for some of the things I have said here but to me it's worth it to be able to work through these issues.


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## Dearly Bought (Nov 23, 2011)

Jared, I've found the following illustration helpful in dealing with such issues:



> Imagine a hillbilly war hero, a man who led his troops victoriously in battle, who is going to be honored by his men after their return from war. His fellow officers, however, are from Evanston, Illinois; Berkeley, California; and Short Hills, New Jersey; and they don’t exactly understand their leader’s tastes. As they prepare a great banquet in his honor, they think of how he enjoys listening to music, and eating, and drinking. So, they have the best chamber orchestra, caviar, and champagne that money can buy, all prepared for him and his wife whom they have flown in from Kentucky. What’s wrong with this? Well, yes, he enjoys music, but he’d much prefer stomping his feet to the sounds of a banjo, a guitar, and a fiddle. Yes, he enjoys eating, but what’s this stuff called caviar? It’s black-eyed peas, grits, cornbread, and venison or squirrel meat which are his pleasure. Yes, he enjoys drinking, but champagne? His specialty is “Mountain Dew” (and we don’t, of course, mean the product from Pepsi-Cola). The obvious point is that, if they had really wanted to honor their hero, they would have found out about those things which pleased him and provided those for him, rather than trying to please him their own way. Similarly, if we truly want to please the Mighty Warrior who has effected our salvation, we will find out which things delight Him, and perform those things for Him.
> 
> (from Worship in the Presence of God)



I empathize with your struggle due to my own background. I led worship or participated in a worship team for umpteen different churches and "worship gatherings" during college. Looking back on my experiences, I couldn't even begin to count the number of ways in which I violated the RPW. The Biblical view of worship requires a huuuuuge reorientation. It is fundamentally incompatible with what one gets used to in the broader evangelical world.

For me, the RPW began to make sense as simply an application of what I had already learned about God's sovereignty. The God who is sovereign in salvation is also sovereign over His worship.


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## EKSB SDG (Nov 23, 2011)

You have some thought-provoking questions here and I'm sure that you could get a wide variety of opinions from people on this topic. However, the opinions of people, however well intentioned, should not be our guide on what is, or is not, appropriate in the worship of the Creator of the universe. God's infallible Word gives us very clear instruction on what is, and what is not, appropriate in worship. God tells us, quite explicitly how He wants us to worship Him. 

There is an excellent book that covers this topic: Worship: From Genesis to Revelation by Douglas Comin. The author also gave the book a sub-title: A Vindication of the Regulative Principle as the Unifying Standard of Corporate Worship in both the Old and New Testaments, Proved by a Survey of the Canonical Scriptures. The book is available, but since it is privately published and doesn't have an ISBN, it's not readily available. If you're interested in a copy, send me a message and I'll give you the details on how to obtain it. I have a pdf of the book and if you'd like that, send me a message with your e-mail and I'll send the pdf to you.

The book is 608 pages and covers (in 65 chapters) every book of the Bible and shows how in each book of Scripture, God clearly lays out how He wants His people to worship Him. The reason the book is not 66 chapters long is because 2nd and 3rd John are covered in one chapter.

If you're seriously interested in wrestling through the issue of the RPW, then I would highly recommend this book to you.


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## JML (Nov 23, 2011)

Hi Jared,

I hope I can help.



Jared Hanley said:


> For instance, some Pentecostal and Charismatic churches use solid colored flags during worship. People simply wave them as they worship and use them as a tool for worship. I have engaged in this practice in the past. However, I am aware that there is no specific scripture commanding this practice.



I would start with some questions. What is the purpose of the waving flags? Who does it draw attention to? God or the person waving it? Are they being a distraction? And more along the lines of the RPW, what are we told in the Bible pleases God in worship? Is flag waving given as something that pleases Him? If we know that He is pleased with A, B, and C then why do we even attempt D? Also, does this practice as well as the one below follow this passage:


*1 Corinthians 14:40*


> But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.






Jared Hanley said:


> What's wrong with dancing during worship? Whether liturgical or extemporaneous, as far as I can tell, both are present in scripture. In the New Testament in the book of Acts, the man that is healed by the gate Beautiful gets up "dancing and leaping and praising God".



I'm not sure what liturgical dancing would look like but God has already given us a liturgy of what to include in New Testament worship and it does not include dancing. As far as extemporaneous, it is not included either, but even so, when would it take place? During singing? If so, is the dancer concentrating on the words he or she is singing or on dancing? The Bible speaks of singing in this way:

*Colossians 3:16*


> Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.



How are we to accomplish this if the words we are saying are not what we are concentrating on? In regards to the man who was healed at the gate, he was dancing out of joy of being healed and it did not take place in a worship service.




Jared Hanley said:


> One of the weightier arguments for me against a strict interpretation of RPW is that compared to a Pentecostal or Charismatic worship service, a "truly Reformed" worship service feels much less free. I was always taught that we are set free during worship and that intimacy with God is very important and intimacy with God in worship is one of the goals of worship.



This all depends on what you mean by free. If you are referring to free as in that we are free to do anything that we want, this is most definitely not the Scriptural example of worship. God has prescribed a specific manner in which to be worshipped and it is according to this that we know that we please Him in worship. However, this is really true freedom (His prescribed ways). We are free from anxiety and fear because we know that we are worshipping God in a way that pleases Him. As far as intimacy with God, we can look at it the same way we look at a relationship to a wife. Can we just do anything under the sun to please our spouse? Of course not, a spouse has certain things that she likes and dislikes. So if my wife likes to go out to dinner and that makes her feel close to me and I instead take her out to the deer stand at 3 a.m. because I think she would like it, have I pleased her if she dislikes deer hunting? Also, I am a little uncomfortable with the word intimacy in relation to God. To me it has too much of a fleshly sound to it. We please God by worshipping Him in spirit and in truth according to the guidelines He has given not when we have "good feelings" or our emotions are touched inside of us.

I hope this can be of some assistance in your study of the RPW.


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## Afterthought (Nov 23, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> I was always taught that we are set free during worship and that intimacy with God is very important and intimacy with God in worship is one of the goals of worship.


We are most free when we are in obedience to Christ's commands. Worship is a bowing down before God, a bowing down even of our wills. Our inward "bowing" of our hearts expresses itself in an outward bowing to God's will, and so we only worship Him how He commands. For our humble obedience to God's will results in us asking, "How does God desire to be worshiped? What can we do to please Him?" God says "to obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22). God will be sanctified among those who draw near to worship Him (Lev. 10:3). It is most freeing to know that our worship is acceptable before Him instead of having to wander in the dark wondering, "Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?" (Micah 6:6). In keeping His commands we show our love to Him. Indeed, we are His friends if we do what He commands (John 15:14), and so we are "closer" to God in keeping them and will experience greater joy in obeying His will and knowing we have done what is pleasing to Him.

We worship God by not only using His ordinances but in the mere fact that we bow ourselves to His will, being content with what He has required of us. That is, we worship Him even in how we worship Him when we do only His commands in worship. In using other ways to worship Him, we worship ourselves in a way, because then we pay our ingenuity a high honor, namely, the honor of being used to worship the Most High God; for in using our ingenuity, we are saying it is worthy of being offered to the Most High God in His solemn worship.

Of course, the RPW, as with all things, should come from Scripture, and we need to have the attitude of "What does God require of me in worshipping Him?" Anything other than Scriptural arguments against the RPW will not do.


Such is my layman's opinion (albeit, one helped along by pastors and teachers explaining what Scripture says).

(P.S.: I too speak from the position of one who has participated in worship teams in the past. I still have some issues to work out concerning the RPW, but of the ordinances I have found required in worship, I find God's ordinances more edifying, pleasing, and sanctifying than any innovated acts of worship I have done in the past.)


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## Tim (Nov 24, 2011)

"God tells us what he wants us to do". Always come back to that.


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## KMK (Nov 24, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. I know that I might get in trouble for some of the things I have said here but to me it's worth it to be able to work through these issues.



The PB is a safe place to ask questions. What is prohibited is the _promotion_ of unconfessional views.


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## Jared (Nov 24, 2011)

Psalm 150:4 says:

Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! 
Psalm 150:4 ESV

So God commands us to dance. How do you get around that? And why would you want to?


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## JP Wallace (Nov 24, 2011)

Jared

The psalm you quote does indeed apparently command us to worship with dance. So does Psalm 149.

Psalm 149:33 Let them praise His name with the dance; Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. 4 For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. 

However there is a problem if we take that instantly without qualification as a command for all time to be take at face value for observe what Psalm 149 commands us to do in the next verse.

6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, 7 To execute vengeance on the nations, And punishments on the peoples; 

Thus at face value God is commanding people not only to dance in worship of his name but execute vengeance upon the nation with a two-edged sword. 

See the problem? We must therefore tread a little more cautiously that just taking the psalms or any Old Covenant worship 'scenario' as being normative for New Covenant Worship.


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## Jared (Nov 24, 2011)

JP, there is no such command to take up swords however in Psalm 150.


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## JP Wallace (Nov 24, 2011)

So are you suggesting that we ignore the command of Psalm 149 and obey those in Psalm 150? Is Psalm 150 normative and 149 not? How do we know which to obey now and which to disobey? Can we cherry-pick Scripture like this?


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## Andrew P.C. (Nov 24, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> JP, there is no such command to take up swords however in Psalm 150.



Jared, greetings and Happy Thanksgiving,

In scripture you see a few cases where people dance in worship(e.g. Miariam the prophetess exodus 15:20; David the king 2 Samuel 6:14). However these were not normal cases. These were very special cases in which they danced before the Holy God. You have to ask the question, what was the normative way in which the Church worshipped God? Acts 2:42 sums it up well, "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer".


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## JoannaV (Nov 24, 2011)

There may be things which are appropriate in private worship but not corporate worship.


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## Jared (Nov 24, 2011)

In his book on missions "Let The Nations Be Glad", John Piper says that the following text suggests that worship under the new covenant should be more free than under the old covenant:

Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:21-24 ESV


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## Andrew P.C. (Nov 24, 2011)

John Piper isn't reformed nor does he hold to the Regulative principle.


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## JP Wallace (Nov 24, 2011)

John 4 does speak of a radical change - worship is no longer tied to the ceremonies, and priesthood of "Jerusalem" or this 'this mountain", the incense, trumpets and all the rest have been fulfilled in Christ, NC worship it is radically spiritual, but it is also worship 'in truth' according to the regulatory instructions of the Lord.


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## jwithnell (Nov 24, 2011)

I may seem way off topic here, but stay with me an you'll see where I'm going. We place a premium on knowing God -- both is the serious study of the scriptures (and supporting studies) but also in the day to day communing with Him, struggling in prayer and praise on our own and with our families. 

When we come into public worship, we are joining others in Jesus' presence to worship and adore God. The emotional content comes from a deep knowing and loving of God. Joy comes as we struggle through the situations our sovereign God has brought into our life. Our trust and faith grows as we publicly engage in the means of grace -- the word, sacraments and prayer. 

The RPW should not be viewed as a list of what you can and cannot do but as a framing and context for what Jesus is doing in us and in the dear surrounding brothers and sisters in Christ. Most would feel happy and excited waving flags around and dancing -- but it almost doesn't matter where you do such things; a football game? A parade? A party? All are "uplifting," joyful occasions. But the joy raised in such occasions are fleeting and in a sense, cheap. Real joy and exultation of our God comes from the day-by-day seeking to love and know Him, then going into worship to glorify Him by the means he has appointed.


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## Goodcheer68 (Nov 24, 2011)

Those instances in the Bible where dancing is mentioned were never during corporate worship.


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## Peairtach (Nov 24, 2011)

New Covenant worship is more simple and spiritual, than Temple and Old Covenant worship.

It doesn't rely on props like prayer shawls, shofars, choirs, dancing, or instruments.

Even those who don't hold to a capella Psalms only, acknowledge this by not following the elaborate musical directions of the Temple.

New Covenant worship doesn't depend on elaborate and earthly visual and aural splendour, now that the reality of Christ revealed in His Word is here, now that the Church is no longer a child, now that the Spirit has been given in full measure.


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## toddpedlar (Nov 24, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> One of the weightier arguments for me against a strict interpretation of RPW is that compared to a Pentecostal or Charismatic worship service, a "truly Reformed" worship service feels much less free. I was always taught that we are set free during worship and that intimacy with God is very important and intimacy with God in worship is one of the goals of worship.
> 
> Also, it would seem to me that especially a very strict Psalms only approach to worship would limit our creativity and thereby limit the ways in which we can glorify God by using our creativity. Since we are created in the image of God and God is our Creator and He is very creative then this would seem to me to be another very persuasive argument against.
> 
> Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. I know that I might get in trouble for some of the things I have said here but to me it's worth it to be able to work through these issues.



Was God mean to Israel when he strictly limited their corporate worship? Their creativity was severely restrained. Was God unjust? If you think the RPW is too strict and that God is not one who you think should limit our creativity now, what do you think of God in Old Testament times?

As for personal freedom in worship, why do you feel "less free"? Because you can't do tumbling and somersaults down the center aisle if you feel like it while the band plays "Shine, Jesus, Shine"? Is freedom identified as autonomous license in your mind?


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## Jared (Nov 25, 2011)

Okay. I've thought some more about this, I've considered the scriptures and I've prayed about it. I had a dream last night about RPW and it had to do with RPW maintaining the continuity between the old and new covenants. Now I know that some people here don't trust dreams. But I feel like God showed me the truth of the doctrines through dreams five years ago when I was wrestling through those issues.

There are certain things I guess that I've always had in common with RPW. For instance, I think I along with most people coming from a Charismatic background would oppose using a marching band during worship.

I also oppose using secular songs for worship. I think it is bordering on blasphemy when "worship" leaders sing songs like "J-E-S-U-S and Jesus was His name-o" or "ding dong the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead (religion witch)". Those are two actual examples and I could list the artists that I heard sing those songs during worship.

Also, I never felt comfortable with running during worship which was a common practice in the Pentecostal church that I grew up in. I never saw a clear command in scripture to run although there were other things that for whatever reason I didn't feel like I needed a clear command from scripture.

Those are some of my thoughts so far.

I would also like to discuss John Frame and some of his views concerning RPW. I read somewhere that back in 1996 he decided that dancing was okay from an RPW perspective.

And, how do you decide what kinds of songs to sing during worship if you are non-EP?

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Todd, BTW, I have always recognized that Old Testament was highly structured and reflected the holiness of God. I know that worship under the old covenant had to follow a precise pattern. But I have always had a hard time understanding how this carried over to the new covenant because of my background in Pentecostalism. A lot of Charismatics that I know (I was one of them) enjoy on occasion the formality ofthe worship that is found in Anglican and Lutheran churches because they feel that it evokes a sense of the holiness of God. But isn't worship according to the RPW less formal than that? These are merely questions that I have.


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## Jared (Nov 25, 2011)

I am still thinking through this. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. But I do think it's an important subject.


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## KMK (Nov 25, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> I also oppose using secular songs for worship. I think it is bordering on blasphemy when "worship" leaders sing songs like "J-E-S-U-S and Jesus was His name-o" or "ding dong the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead (religion witch)". Those are two actual examples and I could list the artists that I heard sing those songs during worship.





What in the world is a 'religious witch'?


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 25, 2011)

KMK said:


> Jared Hanley said:
> 
> 
> > I also oppose using secular songs for worship. I think it is bordering on blasphemy when "worship" leaders sing songs like "J-E-S-U-S and Jesus was His name-o" or "ding dong the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead (religion witch)". Those are two actual examples and I could list the artists that I heard sing those songs during worship.
> ...



Maybe it's a witch that melts when faced with liturgical dancing.


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## Jared (Nov 25, 2011)

KMK said:


> Jared Hanley said:
> 
> 
> > I also oppose using secular songs for worship. I think it is bordering on blasphemy when "worship" leaders sing songs like "J-E-S-U-S and Jesus was His name-o" or "ding dong the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead (religion witch)". Those are two actual examples and I could list the artists that I heard sing those songs during worship.
> ...



A spirit of religion or a religious spirit.


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## KMK (Nov 25, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Jared Hanley said:
> ...



A cursory Google search leads me to believe that this is otherwise known as 'Phariseeism'. I have never heard this phrase before, in the Bible, or in Christianese.


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## au5t1n (Nov 25, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Jared Hanley said:
> ...



I wish I had that. Working on it.


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## Wayne (Nov 25, 2011)

Back up around posts 9 and 10, I would offer that in Psalm 149 the reference to swords is metaphorical, not literal.

True worship is spiritual warfare. Nothing to do with actual swords.

(and incidentally, Psalm 149 stands in resolution of Psalm 2.)

Or better, and with a good bit more nuance:



> _Let the high praises of God be in their mouth and a two-edged sword in their hand._
> Praise and power go ever hand in hand. The two things act and react upon each other. An era of spiritual force in the Church is always one of praise; and when there comes some grand outburst of sacred song, we may expect that the people of God are entering upon some new crusade for Christ. Cromwell's Iron sides were sneeringly called Psalm-singers ; but God's Psalm-singers are always Ironsides. He who has a "new song in his mouth" is ever stronger, both to suffer and to labour, than the man who has a dumb spirit and a hymnless heart. When he sings at his work, he will both do more and do it better than he would without his song. Hence, we need not be surprised that all through its history the Church of God has travelled "along the line of music."


--William Taylor, in 'The Study,' " (1873) - cited in Spurgeon's _Treasury of David_


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## Jared (Nov 25, 2011)

KMK said:


> Jared Hanley said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...





I guess that growing up I heard people teach so much on the 'religious spirit' that I never thought about it being "Christianese". I think you see that kind of language used in some Reformed circles though when they talk for instance about religion saying something that contradicts unconditional election for instance. Some Reformed people would say that someone who teaches conditional election is peddling "religion". Mark Driscoll has used the word "religion" in this way. But then, he is a "Charismatic with a seatbelt".

I heard John Piper talking one time about how the adjective "religious" used to have a positive meaning as in the title of Jonathan Edwards's book "The Religious Affections" but now it has a negative meaning implying that someone is legalistic and pharasaical. In this case, the word "religious" is being used in opposite ways.

The Christian rapper Tedashii is featured in the Trip Lee song "Bear With You" speaks of true salvation and says "that's when it goes past religion".

Whereas Reformed people use the term "religious" to refer to doctrine that is counterintuitive to the Gospel, Pentecostals use the term to refer to worship that they feel is stodgy and restricting. It's just that the application in each case is different.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 25, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> Whereas Reformed people use the term "religious" to refer to doctrine that is counterintuitive to the Gospel, Pentecostals use the term to refer to worship that they feel is stodgy and restricting. It's just that the application in each case is different.



I can't stand that use of the term "religious." Christianity is a religion. It is true religion, as compared to the false religions of the world, but it is a religion. The whole "I'm spiritual, but not religious" nonsense makes me want to


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## KMK (Nov 25, 2011)

Jared Hanley said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Jared Hanley said:
> ...



If 'religious' means 'pharasiacal' then what does 'pharasaical' mean? From your description it sounds like some Pentecostals have a 'spirit of a witch' in their view of us who are 'stodgy'.


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## jwright82 (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't see what is so restrictive about NC worship? My church has a traditional and contemporary service. They are both "done in good order" and liturgical in the traditional sense. So how is it "restrictive" if we don't have dancing? That sounds like a Post-modern, and not a biblical, argument. In PM extreme emphasis is placed on individual experience, you experience it your way and I'll experience it mine. A type of restricitive arguments are used by them to be more inclusive. For instance post-conservitive theologian Brian Mclaren says somewhere, I'll paraphrase it, that he sees himself as withen the Calvinist tradition because he has a version of the TULIP, never mind that it is 100% different from the traditional TULIP.

The point he is arguing for less doctrinal restrictions. I know that you are not but I see a correlation because you were making the same kind of argument for the RPW as being too restrictive, I know that you have thought through it and except it now. It is just curious to me that with the rise of the Pentecostal movement to a degree coincided with the rise of PM, just an observation not a well worked out argument.


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## deathtolife (Nov 28, 2011)

Brother,

I struggled with the RPW for quite sometime. 
It is when I realized that God never needed us to worship Him in the first place that I -by the grace of God - accepted the sovreignty of God over how we ought to worship Him. Never forget it is by His grace alone through Christ Jesus that we can approach His throne worthy to worship Him. The RPW is really a desire to please the Lord as we worship in "Spirit and in truth".


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