# The PC-USA and the rest of us Presbyterians



## Osage Bluestem

It is a sad thing that the PC-USA is separate from us.

From what I have studied it looks like the problem started at Princeton Theological Seminary when some scholars decided that they were no longer going to teach that the bible was inerrant because of their point of view. A few years later and they have women pastors, now they are working on getting openly gay people ordained. Does anyone know about the history of the PC-USA's slide? They couldn't have always been like this could they?

When I first became reformed I joined a PC-USA church until I learned how unscriptural their general stance on scripture was. I really liked the people there and am grieved that the denomination turned out to be so bad. I think it is the overall view of scripture that has caused this. The denomination seems to be largely ran by people who really don't believe, really don't have a set authority, but just trust in empirical human reason and their educational levels and hope that everything will work out.

Do you think there is ever a posibility of Presbyterian Unity? Should our work for unity begin within our own traditions, or with those who share common views of scripture, yet have differing sacramentology and such? Where is the PC-USA's official position on the bible written down? Are they now NRSV onlyists?


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## charliejunfan

I attended this church for awhile and it doesn't agree with the rest of the denomination of the PCUSA, somewhere on the site they say that they depart with the rest of the denomination in several areas and are trying to move the PCUSA back in a more Historical Christian Orthodoxy. It was pretty much like a typical PCA and had a male pastor who was actually pretty good I thought, so there is hope 
Here is there website: http://www.npctucson.org/


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## Southern Twang

This may be of some help:

Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church

It's a massive book (900 pages or so). I want to read it!


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## MMasztal

I was married in a PC-USA church and attended there for a while, but found the sermons patronizing and the atmosphere more of a religious country club than a church. Granted, I wasn't really a Christian back then, but even now looking back, I view it the same way. 

I see no need for "Presbyterian Unity" if it means having to sideline doctrines of grace or other Reformed tenets which is what compromise is usually all about. The PC-USA needs to repent for their rebellion against God first.


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## Osage Bluestem

This may make some of you laugh, but I was raised Southern Baptist with a strong view of biblical inerrancy. I went into error later due to a historical apostolic succesion argument presented by some Catholics and joined the Cathoilc Church. However, their view of scripture is that it is inerrant and infallible as well (they add 7 "infallible" books to the OT though ), they just place Church tradition on the same level so they err. But, I was exposed to a strong view of biblical inerrancy.

When I first was brought back to reality from Catholicism and went looking for a Church that fit my understanding of the bible, I had no idea that there were serious protestant churches that believed the bible had errors. When I found that out I was floored. I joined the PC-USA knowing they had women pastors but thinking their leaders were smarter and more well studied than me and could provide a good biblical case. When I found out that their only case was that they simply didn't believe that Paul wrote those passages and that they weren't inspired scripture I was floored. I had never encountered anyone who believed that and was still a Christian. Their arguments sounded a lot like atheistic arguments I heard in college trying to discredit the bible. That's when I began to question my ELCA father in law and found out that his views of scripture were the same as those of the PC-USA. I really couldn't believe it and was shocked to say the least. I actually joined a PC-USA church thinking that they believed the bible was inerrant like "everyone else". 

So, I think that the defense of the bible itself is crucial to Christian unity. It is a frontline battle.


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## Scott1

You might find helpful a history of why the PCA separated to remain a "continuing church":

Keyes' Brief History

There are a couple ways to look at this:
1) PCA separated as a communion to pursue a biblical, reformed denomination
2) PCUSA left its biblical, reformed heritage and thus left its people

What is happening is a snapshot in our generation of apostasy and its varying degrees as men imagine and rationalize their rebellion against God and His Word.

There are a few particular churches that hold the gospel and contend for the authority of Scripture left in the large mainline denomination. There are several associations in which they are linked together.

These churches consist of brothers in the Lord and a similar polity.

But, by now, after a generation of falling away, officially from the authority of Scripture as rule for faith and practice, we have to be honest.

The remaining "good" churches have lost their reformed distinctives. They are more "broadly evangelical" churches now. After decades of fighting over things like the very deity of Christ, issues like the priority of Lord's Day worship, the regulative principle of worship, even the distinctive doctrines of grace have been mostly lost in an even more basic battle.

And, we have a continuum separating out. Some like those in the New Wineskins are absorbing at present, a woman dominated polity. The EPC is deeply divided over it and is not requiring real adherence to the Westminster Standards, but only to a short list of essentials.

I would like to think the PCA and OPC are trying to adhere to historic, biblical reformed faith- based on the "five solas" and a distinctive Calvinist soteriology, covenant theology, and a confessional basis.

That's a continuation of something much greater- a church formed and shaped by Scripture going back to Mr. Knox and Mr. Calvin, but even back further to Augustine to the apostles. Even more, back to the people of God in the Old Testament.

It's hard to see through our times, but it does seem the mainline grouping is losing, waxing worse and worse whereas the separation ones are growing, overcoming difficulty, and remaining faithful.

I think Scripture counsels us it will be like this in every age. Every person is called to a place in this, but not a unity "for unity's sake."


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## johnbugay

Hey DD it's good to hear that you made it back from the abyss. 

When I was looking around for a church, I visited a PCUSA church near my home. Nice folks; they are or were in the process of joining the EPC. But the sermon was very much like theological bubble gum. (I don't even remember what it was, but it was very simplistic).

I read a D.G. Hart bio of Machen that discussed the downfall of the PCUSA. I'm sure others here probably could shed lots of light on that topic.


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## Philip

I see little hope for the PCUSA due to the way that a) its structure has been taken over by the liberals because of b) the exodus of the vast majority of its biblically faithful churches in the last fifty years. That said, God can work miracles, so there is hope that the biblically faithful churches left can bring the denomination back.

The only mainline church where I have heard reports of successful attempts at reformation in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland--and even there, it's still an uphill battle for reform.


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## Webservant

Southern Twang said:


> This may be of some help:
> 
> Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church
> 
> It's a massive book (900 pages or so). I want to read it!


Gary North has this book for FREE on his website. 

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/gncf.pdf


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## Osage Bluestem

P. F. Pugh said:


> I see little hope for the PCUSA due to the way that a) its structure has been taken over by the liberals because of b) the exodus of the vast majority of its biblically faithful churches in the last fifty years. That said, God can work miracles, so there is hope that the biblically faithful churches left can bring the denomination back.
> 
> The only mainline church where I have heard reports of successful attempts at reformation in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland--and even there, it's still an uphill battle for reform.



We all use the term mainline to describe the liberal denominations:

PC-USA, TEC, ELCA, UMC, 

I wonder if we should? The reason I went to the PC-USA when I was totally unaware of the situation is because I had come to believe that Reformed theology and the Presbyterian system was most biblical and since this denomination was the "mainline" one I thought the others must just be offshoots who rebelled in error against the standard biblical doctrine, but I quickly learned that was certainly not the case...

The devil uses anything he can think of to deceive people.


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## Wayne

David:

Back to your original question--the doctrinal slide of the PCUSA began in the 19th century. They had split in 1837 into Old School (orthodox) and New School (a mixture, ranging from orthodox to outright heterodox [like Albert Barnes]). The split was healed in 1869, but the doctrinal errors were never dealt with.

Subsequent judicial trials of several men did not go well, particularly the trial of Charles A. Briggs. He was a professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York, but after being defrocked by the PCUSA, he continued to teach at UTSNY, churning out theological modernists into the pulpits of the PCUSA. UTSNY was not under the authority of the PCUSA, so there was no way to remove Briggs from his post, and the PCUSA failed to prohibit UTSNY grads from their pulpits. In time, the cancer grew and the modernists were eventually able to seize control of the denomination. The fall of Princeton came at the end of this series of battles. By the time the conservatives were fighting the battle at Princeton, the war had already been lost.

Abraham Kuyper, in his Encyclopedia of Sacred Theology, puts his finger on the heart of the problem. Namely, we cannot study theology the same way that we study any other subject. In the study of God's self-revelation, we must passively receive His authoritative teaching. We err when we try to approach Scripture as if it were like any other subject, as if it were under our authority of inspection, comparison and examination. German higher criticism grows out of an empirical scientific approach to the text of Scripture, and it was higher criticism that fostered the greater problem. I'm not doing justice to Kuyper of course, so I'll point you to Princeton Seminary--Library (I think that's the right chapter where he makes the point I'm trying to relate).

[see also either Princeton Seminary--Library or Internet Archive: Free Download: Encyclopedia of sacred theology : its principles for the rest of that work.]


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## Bengibor

DD, thanks for sharing your story and thank God you swam the Tiber back. 
As far as I understand there are still about 25% of conservative churches in PCUSA??? Thatis far higher percentage than in UMC. ELCA or TEC. And what appears to be one of the problems among the conservatives when they ponder whether to stay or leave is the property issue, if I am correctly informed. 
The bottom line is that here must be a major reshuffling in mainline denominations both in America and Europe if we still want to be the salt to this fallen world. Struggle in Europe is even harder as the Protestant churches are mainly under the government umbrella as state or established churches and it's much harder to fight.


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## Reformed Thomist

I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In many more-or-less apostate mainline denominations will be found a few throwbacks, faithful Biblical churches fighting the good fight.


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## Josiah

Hi DD,

I would suggest reading Seeking a Better Country: 300 years of American Presbyterianism by D.G. Hart and John Muether. In my humble opinion it is probably the most sobering and humbling foreys into American Presbyterian history I have read yet . Here is a little blurb about the book:



> Seeking a Better Country is a readable and lively survey of American Presbyterianism since its founding in 1706. Its aim is not to celebrate but to understand how Presbyterians formed one of the largest and most influential denominations in the United States, and those historical developments that led to their decline.


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## Glenn Ferrell

Evangelicals within the PC-USA have been battling sodomites and pro-death unitarian-universalists so long they are often unaware of the pillars of the reformed faith. Most are broad evangelicals at best. It is good the EPC exists to receive departing congregations which would not be acceptable within the PCA or OPC. But, many of these evangelicals continue with women officers, liturgical confusion, and theological ignorance. 

Some USA presbyteries have shown a new openness to releasing congregations with their property in recent months. This may be the last opportunity for many of those evangelical to leave.

A major problem for conservative USA congregations is finding a bible believing, theologically informed, competent pastor. Their seminaries are turning out few of these. If they are theologically aware, they wouldn’t want to serve a USA church. 

Some of us have relatives and good friends still in USA churches, and would like to see these folks depart those congregations or the congregations leave the denomination. Evangelicals who express hope of fighting for the truth and turning the denomination around offer no strategy to do so. Without the will and means to apply biblical discipline, the PCUSA as a whole has ceased to be a “church.”


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## Marrow Man

I was converted in college and soon joined a PCA church. When I graduated and moved to a town about an hour away, I found there was no such church. I drove back and forth for a while, but that grew old and I was not able to be a part of the life of the church. After visiting a few churches, I began attending a local PC(USA) church when I discovered the pastor was a graduate of RTS-Jackson. The church was (as Glenn correctly describes it) "broadly evangelical" and generally conservative with the exception of female officers. I remained a member of that church for 10 years or so, and I was married in that church. But it was also a subsequent pastor of that church (also an RTS grad and a staunch Calvinist) who encouraged me to attend Erskine and to leave the PC(USA) and seek membership and ordination in the ARP.


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## jandrusk

Reformed Thomist said:


> I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In many more-or-less apostate mainline denominations will be found a few throwbacks, faithful Biblical churches fighting the good fight.



Well, in this case I would not use this analogy. Given their lack of interest in reforming due to those who are running the PCA I would equate it to; if you were handed an apple with a worm in it, would you eat any part of that apple, knowing that you only found found the worm in one small part of the apple? I wouldn't think so, because you would look at the worm corrupting the whole fruit and would select another apple that you knew was pristine. 

Their lack of orthodoxy shows that they are more concerned with cultural acceptance than gospel credence and for that we should not seek unity just for the sake of unity when that worm would just reinfect a new piece of fruit.


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## Glenn Ferrell

Marrow Man said:


> ...I began attending a local PC(USA) church when I discovered the pastor was a graduate of RTS-Jackson. The church was (as Glenn correctly describes it) "broadly evangelical" and generally conservative with the exception of female officers. I remained a member of that church for 10 years or so, and I was married in that church. But it was also a subsequent pastor of that church (also an RTS grad and a staunch Calvinist) who encouraged me to attend Erskine and to leave the PC(USA) and seek membership and ordination in the ARP.



Such congregations would be a better fit for the EPC. I'm thankful such congregations exist where there is no more conservative and reformed expression of the church.


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## Marrow Man

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I began attending a local PC(USA) church when I discovered the pastor was a graduate of RTS-Jackson. The church was (as Glenn correctly describes it) "broadly evangelical" and generally conservative with the exception of female officers. I remained a member of that church for 10 years or so, and I was married in that church. But it was also a subsequent pastor of that church (also an RTS grad and a staunch Calvinist) who encouraged me to attend Erskine and to leave the PC(USA) and seek membership and ordination in the ARP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such congregations would be a better fit for the EPC. I'm thankful such congregations exist where there is no more conservative and reformed expression of the church.
Click to expand...


When I was a member there, they were actually considering affiliating with the EPC. They had a church school and took steps to protect their property should it come to that, but they also kept playing the waiting game to see how the PC(USA) struggles would pan out. At that time, the presbyteries kept rebuffing the attempts to eliminate the chastity/fidelity clause from the standards, so they never left. Now that pastor has retired, and I have no idea when they currently stand. I think they were holding out for me to come back and pastor, but I moved even further to the right in the interim and was no longer "ordainable" while they remained in the PC(USA).


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## Glenn Ferrell

Marrow Man said:


> When I was a member there, they were actually considering affiliating with the EPC. They had a church school and took steps to protect their property should it come to that, but they also kept playing the waiting game to see how the PC(USA) struggles would pan out. At that time, the presbyteries kept rebuffing the attempts to eliminate the chastity/fidelity clause from the standards, so they never left. Now that pastor has retired, and I have no idea when they currently stand. I think they were holding out for me to come back and pastor, but I moved even further to the right in the interim and was no longer "ordainable" while they remained in the PC(USA).



The church of my childhood (then PCUS) continues in the clutches of the PCUSA. They just lost their pastor. Where will they find a faithful man?

While in WV a few weeks ago, I visited my childhood pastor, who faithfully served the community where I grew up for 47 years. He’s currently attending the local, more than 200 year old, PCUSA congregation which has a female Union Seminary (NYC) educated “pastor,” who apparently gives liberal theological lectures for sermons, has few pastoral skills and is eroding what congregation still exists.

It saddens me to see what is happening in these once faithful congregations.

Like you Tim, I could never serve a USA congregation. Although I spent 16 years in the EPC and continue to have many friend there, I could not return; nor would they want me. But, I wish these brothers and sisters well; and pray for revival and reformation.


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## Mushroom

The PCA Church I was a member of in Martinsburg, WV had been a part of the PCUS, but left at the beginning of the PCA back in the '70's. They lost their building in the process. There was an elderly lady there whose father was mason, a member of the Church, and had done all the beautiful brickwork on the building when she was a child. She had carried hod for him during the project, so her whole family's blood, sweat and tears were comingled in that edifice. When asked after the separation how she felt about leaving something so dear to her behind, she replied, "God doesn't live in a building, but in His people."

It breaks my heart to see the wonderful old Church buildings I come across in my travels with a PCUSA sign out front with a woman's name as Pastor. What a travesty! I think of my elder brothers and sisters, now in glory, who lovingly constructed them, worshipped in them, raised covenant families in them, and glorified God in them, and I just have to shake my head that apostasy now enjoys the use of them.


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## Glenn Ferrell

While on vacation recently, I heard an account of one who attended some of the New Wineskin convocations, where they observed evangelical PCUSA female “ministers” saying, “We need to get back to the word of God.”

Does one rejoice, laugh or weep?


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## Virginia Marine

David,
Between the PCUSA's acceptance of homosexual lifestyles and their wavering on the uniqueness of Christ, they have fallen well over the cliff of heresy. I have known several PC USA members who tried to change their church from within but ultimately had to leave the denomination because of it's embrace of rank heresies...
God Bless,
Jay


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