# Biblical Manhood Question



## Username3000 (Jul 16, 2019)

Hello,

I noticed somewhere recently that some people believe that Complementarianism is not truly biblical, but that Patriarchy should be used in its place. (And obviously Egalitarianism is junk.)

Has anyone come across anything comparing and contrasting Patriarchy with Complementarianism?

I do not think it was meant in a Vision Forum kind of way. It was not tied to that movement.

I am intrigued, but want to learn more.

Edit: Here are some articles that are generally about this topic. 

https://itsgoodtobeaman.com/servant-leadership-transforms-leadership-into-subservience/

https://itsgoodtobeaman.com/who-do-we-think-we-are/


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## Taylor (Jul 16, 2019)

I do not know any literature, but as I have encountered the position you describe in the OP, it seems that they argue that modern "complementarianism," with it's talk of things like "servant" leadership, is in practice simply egalitarianism masked by biblical headship language to pacify the men, leaving the women, who in the end are the ones whose pleasure, needs and whim must be sought, remain ultimately in charge. The position you describe, as I understand it, says that, no, men are the heads of their households and rulers in the church—full stop; they are not servants, but pure, proper and _unqualified_ heads and leaders.

Of course, I could be wrong. (EDIT: I posted this before you edited your post to include those two links. It appears the first link confirms to some degree what I said above.) Still, perhaps someone here has a better understanding and could even suggest some literature.


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## Username3000 (Jul 16, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I do not know any literature, but as I have encountered the position you describe in the OP, it seems that they argue that modern "complementarianism," with it's talk of things like "servant" leadership, is in practice simply egalitarianism masked by biblical headship language to pacify the men, leaving the women, who in the end are the ones whose pleasure, needs and whim must be sought, remain ultimately in charge. The position you describe, as I understand it, says that, no, men are the heads of their households and rulers in the church—full stop; they are not servants, but pure, proper and _unqualified_ heads and leaders.
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong. (EDIT: I posted this before you edited your post to include those two links. It appears the first link confirms to some degree what I said above.) Still, perhaps someone here has a better understanding and could even suggest some literature.



This position would then seem correct, would it not?


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## Taylor (Jul 16, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> This position would then seem correct, would it not?



I frankly don't really have an opinion on it at the moment; I haven't studied it near enough. I general, I am very careful about aligning myself with movements like these with a mere "yes" or "no," as they are often so fraught with radicals who, since they get the most press, are what most people perceive as being normative for the beliefs of the group. And, more often than not, if I _do_ happen to align myself with such a group, I end up having to qualify it so much that alignment proves to be more of a hindrance than a helpful label.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Username3000 (Jul 16, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I frankly don't really have an opinion on it at the moment; I haven't studied it near enough. I general, I am very careful about aligning myself with movements like these with a mere "yes" or "no," as they are often so fraught with radicals who, since they get the most press, are what most people perceive as being normative for the beliefs of the group. And, more often than not, if I _do_ happen to align myself with such a group, I end up having to qualify it so much that alignment proves to be more of a hindrance than a helpful label.


Indeed. Makes sense. 

This thread ain’t getting to 13 pages, that’s for sure!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Timmay (Jul 16, 2019)

I’ve come across this too and have even seen the concept of the man as federal head of the family as the reason why women should not vote/reason why historically women did not vote until first wave feminism. That’s something I want to look into historically because that’s explicitly a theological argument as opposed to a social ‘oppression’ argument. And I wonder if it has merit. 

Otherwise some of these guys are def “get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich” while others will work two jobs so their wife can stay home and raise the kids and not work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Pergamum (Jul 16, 2019)

I think the 3 positions (egalitarianism, complementarianism, patriarchy) are becoming more and more useless as people keep redefining them (and reacting to them). Also, 150 years ago, nobody would have even heard of these positions because it was clear what the status of husband and wife was in society. These 3 positions being defined are a result of what has been happening over the last century in the West.

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## Pergamum (Jul 17, 2019)

Many men in churches nowadays would lead....if only their wife told them to.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## RamistThomist (Jul 17, 2019)

I see both sides in the current discussion as a dialectic feeding off each other. Complementarians are getting hijacked by Evangelical feminists. The patriarchalists, as a result, are overreacting. Let's put it this way: Doug Wilson is the moderate one in the patriarchalist group. It's more along the lines of "Ungus make woman breed and cook."

When patriarchalist groups refuse to condemn the Pearls' theology and openly promote avowed Pelagians like the Transformed Wife (Lori), then there is a problem.

Of course, I can't align myself with the Complementarians because they are mostly suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.


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## VictorBravo (Jul 17, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Of course, I can't align myself with the Complementarians because they are mostly suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.



I'm thankful for your ability to make me laugh, Jacob.

That and to keep me up to date on the latest social trends.

I have deliberately stayed away from keeping up with all this over the past few years--too much mucking around in my own world to really relish others mucking things up. Maybe if we moved away from all the political baggage and just acknowledged that "Ungus saw Margaret and knew that she was a fit", and then they lived happily ever after doing whatever it was God set out for them to do.

Maybe my take on Genesis is a little simplistic, but at least I can sleep without worrying about my identity.

Reactions: Like 2 | Amen 1


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## RamistThomist (Jul 17, 2019)

VictorBravo said:


> I'm thankful for your ability to make me laugh, Jacob.



True, it was funny, but I really wasn't exaggerating.


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## Pergamum (Jul 18, 2019)

It is hard for most hipster Calvinists in 2019 to write about manhood when they aren't even manly.

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## Username3000 (Jul 18, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> It is hard for most hipster Calvinists in 2019 to write about manhood when they aren't even manly.



Amen. Do you know of any robust, solid books about manhood?


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## C. M. Sheffield (Jul 18, 2019)

I often encounter unbiblical ways of thinking about male leadership in the home. For instance, a husband and wife will discuss some matter and will ultimately not be able to agree. When the husband makes the call, the wife will complain that his moving forward when they were not both in agreement amounts to him having a sinful disregard for her opinions and feelings. "Repentance" in such a situation involves the husband resolving to show more "respect" to his wife's perspective and then just going along with her plan. So she must only "submit" to her husband when she thinks he's right. If he's wrong, she may disregard his authority until he comes around to her way of thinking, at which point she will "submit" again to his "leadership."

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## Username3000 (Jul 18, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> I often encounter unbiblical ways of thinking about male leadership in the home. For instance, a husband and wife will discuss some matter and will ultimately not be able to agree. When the husband makes the call, the wife will complain that his moving forward when they were not both in agreement amounts to him having a sinful disregard for her opinions and feelings. "Repentance" in such a situation involves the husband resolving to show more "respect" to his wife's perspective and then just going along with her plan. So she must only "submit" to her husband when she thinks he's right. If he's wrong, she may disregard his authority until he comes around to her way of thinking, at which point she will "submit" again to his "leadership."


We really ought to praise God for anything in our wives that isn't like the women of this world and age.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Amen. Do you know of any robust, solid books about manhood?



We might not need to make the issue harder than it is. Guys like Kostenberger and others have written well on the family. And if you can bracket Grudem's erroneous views on the Trinity, he is okay at points.

As long as you avoid Wilson and his cultic disciples, you should be fine.


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## Username3000 (Jul 18, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> We might not need to make the issue harder than it is. Guys like Kostenberger and others have written well on the family. And if you can bracket Grudem's erroneous views on the Trinity, he is okay at points.
> 
> As long as you avoid Wilson and his cultic disciples, you should be fine.


Can you share with me some of Wilson’s problematic views about manhood? I have his book Future Men, so Id like to know beforehand what to watch for.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> Can you share with me some of Wilson’s problematic views about manhood? I have his book Future Men, so Id like to know beforehand what to watch for.



Basically everything is wrong, even the stuff that would be "right" by anyone else. 

I'll try to find all of the problems later. Even where he might seem "right," he always says yes and no and "hahah look how funny I am" every time he communicates.

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## VictorBravo (Jul 18, 2019)

I'd suggest, for a start, reading the Lewis essay "Men Without Chests" at the beginning of the _Abolition of Man.
_
It's certainly not a "how to be a man" work, but it might open the eyes to what used to be essential.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2019)

Much of Wilson will sound fine. I admit that. But you are reading a man whose theology has been formally condemned by NAPARC. That should mean something.

Go to ArtofManliness and browse there. Not a full endorsement but usually some good stuff. Do kettlebell swings so it will align your shoulders and back so that you naturally stand in a contrapasso stance


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## Santos (Jul 18, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Much of Wilson will sound fine. I admit that. But you are reading a man whose theology has been formally condemned by NAPARC. That should mean something.
> 
> Go to ArtofManliness and browse there. Not a full endorsement but usually some good stuff. Do kettlebell swings so it will align your shoulders and back so that you naturally stand in a contrapasso stance


So, stay away from Doug Wilson but go and learn from that Mormon at Art Of Manliness?

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## C. M. Sheffield (Jul 19, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Much of Wilson will sound fine. I admit that. But you are reading a man whose theology has been formally condemned by NAPARC. That should mean something.
> 
> Go to ArtofManliness and browse there. Not a full endorsement but usually some good stuff.



Really?_ The Art of Manliness_ has openly extolled the benefits of _*Jesuit Spirituality*! _

The contempt of Doug Wilson by some is, at times, mystifying. I share the same concerns with his errors. Let that be clear. But I also appreciate his witness of the gospel and his boldness in calling out the errors and excesses of the postmodern Evangelical Church.

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## Username3000 (Jul 19, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Much of Wilson will sound fine. I admit that. But you are reading a man whose theology has been formally condemned by NAPARC. That should mean something.
> 
> Go to ArtofManliness and browse there. Not a full endorsement but usually some good stuff. Do kettlebell swings so it will align your shoulders and back so that you naturally stand in a contrapasso stance



I’ve got my Pavel Tsatsouline videos qued up for when I can start swinging my kettlebell consistently.

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## Pergamum (Jul 19, 2019)

Dalrock is a better theologian than most men in the church.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Really?_ The Art of Manliness_ has openly extolled the benefits of _*Jesuit Spirituality*! _
> 
> The contempt of Doug Wilson by some is, at times, mystifying. I share the same concerns with his errors. Let that be clear. But I also appreciate his witness of the gospel and his boldness in calling out the errors and excesses of the postmodern Evangelical Church.



The website has numerous writers and I said it had problems. 

Wilson has been formally condemned by NAPARC.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2019)

Santos said:


> So, stay away from Doug Wilson but go and learn from that Mormon at Art Of Manliness?



Yes to the first question. No to the second question. I said the Art of Manliness had some good ideas. I didn't say embrace the whole program. I am going to repeat those two sentences. I said the Art of Manliness had some good ideas. I didn't say embrace the whole program.

I generally operate on the assumption that the critical reader can evaluate various ideas and reject some. While this seems to allow the same courtesy to Wilson, there are some differences. Wilson says "yes and no hahaha I am funny" to every proposition. And his theology--which he never rejected--has been formally condemned.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2019)

I was a Wilsonite 14 years ago. I defended him at all costs. I live in an area that is (or used to be) heavily Wilsonite. I know of what I speak. There is a reason his teaching is formally condemned. 

As to the OP. Just don't be a soyboy. Be decisive. Do kettlebells.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Jul 19, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Wilson has been formally condemned by NAPARC.


What does that mean? They condemned him or FV? Where was this action recorded?

You are welcome to your opinion of Wilson as having nothing of value to say. But it's an opinion I do not share. I have never been a "Wilsonite" but I think most of what he writes about our current cultural moment is spot-on.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2019)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> What does that mean? They condemned him or FV? Where was this action recorded?



Links are here. 
https://heidelblog.net/2019/07/has-doug-wilson-really-changed-his-mind-about-the-federal-vision/

This isn't news. The formal condemnations by church courts started way back in 2003.


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## TylerRay (Jul 19, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I think the 3 positions (egalitarianism, complementarianism, patriarchy) are becoming more and more useless as people keep redefining them (and reacting to them).


What Perg said. ^^^ The terms are pretty much useless, unless the one speaking defines his terms. In a recent Facebook discussion on this topic, I described myself as a complementarian, and told what I meant by it. A self-identified patriarchalist told me that I was actually a patriarchalist.

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## Santos (Jul 20, 2019)

Family Shepherd by Voddie Baucham was a great help. But some folks may not like him cause I think that he is a friend of Doug Wilson. But the book was a blessing to me as was Federal Husband and what I have read of Future Men by Doug.


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## ZackF (Jul 20, 2019)

Like Tyler, only I’ve always thought of myself on the leftish side of complementarianism, I’ve been described by some as a Patriarchalist. I can’t stand most strains of feminism when explained yet I don’t have a problem with my current female boss or other female bosses. When co-workers (male or female) hear that my wife stays at home they perk up positively. I only have had one seemingly negative response in almost 10 years of marriage. Usually I get, ‘that’s great, we wish we could do that.’ Predictably our two bedroom apartment and the ‘12 Hyundai Accent I commute in doesn’t inspire the same envy when I describe my family’s life. Same response, ‘we wish we could do that.’  I make a salary enough to support my family without my wife working or us scrimping. She stays home. If I died or became disabled she’d most likely work. My wife and I have never had problems with this. We front loaded all of this garbage when my she and I were dating. She didn’t want a man who demanded a career from her and I didn’t want a wife who prioritized a career for herself though I wasn’t opposed to her having one necessarily.

There are some clear biblical teachings about the responsibility of men and women. However, if any church that we are members of ever says it’s wrong for my wife to work outside the home or for her to stay at home, I’m pulling my family out.

Regarding the AoM blog, I didn’t know the McKays were Mormons. It doesn’t seem to show up in their writings. I’ve found the blog helpful over the years. It’s informative if a man can apply the same discernment he’s supposed to use anywhere else.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2019)

I referenced AoM because they have good "how-to"s sections. I am not sending people there for indoctrination. I'm basically of the opinion you don't need some Heideggerian "mode-of-being-manly-in-the-world." Just do kettlebells


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## Santos (Jul 20, 2019)

Also, I recently started receiving an emaled news letter from Aaron M. Renn's the Masculinist. Pretty good stuff so far although I have yet to thoroughly vet him.


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## Santos (Jul 20, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I referenced AoM because they have good "how-to"s sections. I am not sending people there for indoctrination. I'm basically of the opinion you don't need some Heideggerian "mode-of-being-manly-in-the-world." Just do kettlebells


Is that a joke? Just do kettlebells? How do kettlebells make a manly man? There are plenty pasty, skinny jeans wearing, girly boys who use kettlebells.


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## ZackF (Jul 20, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I referenced AoM because they have good "how-to"s sections. I am not sending people there for indoctrination. I'm basically of the opinion you don't need some Heideggerian "mode-of-being-manly-in-the-world." Just do kettlebells



Yep. They do have some good “manly”, prepper, and how-to stuff without going all zombie apocalypse. There are hoards of men <35 years of age who cannot build a basic, yet well rounded enough wardrobe or even shave their blotchy hipster beards very well. AoM is good on those things also.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2019)

Santos said:


> Is that a joke? Just do kettlebells? How do kettlebells make a manly man?



They realign the shoulders and force you to stand in a more contrapasso stance.


Santos said:


> There are plenty pasty, skinny jeans wearing, girly boys who use kettlebells.



I find that hard to believe. I gained 30 pounds of muscle in 3 years from doing kettlebells + deadlift. 

Of course my comment was tongue in cheek. There is a lot more to being a man than that. My point was that you don't need some Wilsonite guru to teach you manliness.


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## ZackF (Jul 20, 2019)

ZackF said:


> Yep. They do have some good “manly”, prepper, and how-to stuff without going all zombie apocalypse. There are hoards of men <35 years of age who cannot build a basic, yet well rounded enough wardrobe or even shave their blotchy hipster beards very well. AoM is good on those things also.


Looks like I overstated.


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## Pergamum (Jul 21, 2019)

I did not grow up in church. But if I had joined a church and a soft effeminate pastor tried to tell me about how to be a man when I just left the home of my own father who had me chopping wood and cutting trees and spent summers camping, and who worked outside to build his own barns by hand (with me as slave labor), I would have laughed and laughed. 

When I got into missions, several mission execs suggested that silly book "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. Yikes. 

I am largely cynical about any books or podcasts about manhood, parenting, or marriage from this present generation. If you have to read a book about how to be a man, you've done failed. 

I would recommend older books. Or no books at all. Stop reading and start doing. Work out, wrestle or box, master a trade, get close to nature, push yourself, deprive yourself, work hard and long hours without whining, learn hardness. Then use your free time to teach your kids how to camp instead of reading silly books.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2019)

One of the more interesting dangers from this is that some guys in the blogosphere, the "red pilled," wrote very good analyses on the psychologies of a soyboy and a predatory female. The APA never saw the day they could compete with red pilled bloggers on psychology.

Some of those guys, though, were open pagans. They would write articles on how to pick up women and game them once you were in a relationship.


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## Username3000 (Jul 21, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I did not grow up in church. But if I had joined a church and a soft effeminate pastor tried to tell me about how to be a man when I just left the home of my own father who had me chopping wood and cutting trees and spent summers camping, and who worked outside to build his own barns by hand (with me as slave labor), I would have laughed and laughed.
> 
> When I got into missions, several mission execs suggested that silly book "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. Yikes.
> 
> ...



I totally understand what you are saying. But a lot of young guys today didn’t have a manly father to teach them what manhood was. 

As far as books go, I agree that getting out there and ‘doing’ is essential, and that there are a lot of junk books on the subject. 

But, I would still love if a good book was written that defined and discussed manhood from a biblical perspective. Because, 1. I always need more teaching about every topic under the sun; and 2. it’s a glorious topic that is so maligned today, that I would take joy in merely feasting my mind on what true manhood really is. I’m bombarded by false-manhood from the world constantly, and I know that it can affect my thinking. 

With all that said, your point of doing rather than reading is well taken. I just want to be sure that what I’m doing and teaching my sons is real manhood, and not an imposter. 

Thanks for the encouragement to get out there Perg!

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## Pergamum (Jul 21, 2019)

Rutherglen1794 said:


> I totally understand what you are saying. But a lot of young guys today didn’t have a manly father to teach them what manhood was.
> 
> As far as books go, I agree that getting out there and ‘doing’ is essential, and that there are a lot of junk books on the subject.
> 
> ...



I suppose if a person didn't grow up with a father figure, perhaps a man in the church might take the younger men camping, etc. Or the man could join the military for awhile.

I really do think these things need to be modeled rather than taught in written form. Most church relationships are really not very deep.... only for a few hours tops per week and there isn't really a lot of living real life with anyone from churches. You put on nice clothes and smile and try to act social and all.

It'd be far better to work in the dirt or out doors with an older role model than to be taught such things in a classroom during the time each week when we are most likely to put on a false front (i.e a Sunday school class or men's group).

I know that I had several good sports coaches as well. A good coach can bring out the best in a young man. I think young men need to learn in the midst of doing or striving or working for it to really take hold. You can read about grit, but that won't really teach you grit. Some things must be done.

There is a young man here and just telling him to stand up straight and look people in the eye when he talks to them seems to have helped. He thanked me for it and it has improved his posture and his "carriage" - he said he never had anyone point out those things to him. Back in Papua we have gone passing out tracts with younger men and then over lunch talked about one's approach and eye contact and manner of speaking and posture while interacting with inquirers. Also, when I was younger I had an older cop who was a lifting partner and he pulled me aside and told me I shaved like an idiot because I had cuts on my neck and told me how to heat the razor and apply cream, etc, so that I would get a smooth shave, and then made a big deal out of it next time I saw him and was well-shaved. These little things help young men.


Instead of a teacher at a blackboard, I think young men need more of a sergeant correcting the drill steps as he does them or a coach giving tips on his wrestling moves, etc (not lecture-based learning but practice and drill-based learning). This helps better with habits. I once had an older coach run a mile with me to check my stride and pace and then did it again after he pointed out my deficiencies to remind me to fix these things while I was doing them. I believe we must be hands-on in these matters. It seems as if the Apostle Paul lived and traveled with his younger co-workers and Jesus did a lot of hiking and traveling with his disciples.

If you lacked these older role models, then all the more reason to become such an older model for guys in your church.


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## Santos (Jul 21, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I did not grow up in church. But if I had joined a church and a soft effeminate pastor tried to tell me about how to be a man when I just left the home of my own father who had me chopping wood and cutting trees and spent summers camping, and who worked outside to build his own barns by hand (with me as slave labor), I would have laughed and laughed.
> 
> When I got into missions, several mission execs suggested that silly book "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. Yikes.
> 
> ...



So, that's all there is to Biblical manhood? Chop fire wood, build barns,learn a trade,wrestle, box? Because if that's the case I nailed that a long time ago. I competed in boxing, jujitsu, and MMA (before gloves were used) for years. I am a frame carpenter, boiler maker, sheet metal man and crane operator. I have camped, fished and hunted and done so with my boys. We have spent time on the mat falling, throwing, choking, learning submissions from each position with the finer points of eye gouging and fish hooking when it's not for sport. And so I am a Biblical man?

I'm glad that your father spent time with you teaching you masculine things. But if he was not a believer ( I am assuming this because you said that you didn't grow up in church) how could he teach you to be a Biblical man? Did he teach you to love your wife as Christ loves the church and laid down His life for her? Did he teach you to pray with and study God's word with her? Did he catechise you and teach you to do the same with your children? Because my father was an unbeliever and he didn't teach me any of those things. He taught me how to drink and ignore my children. He taught me how to lie and blame shift. He taught me how to think of myself first and self love.All of which I am still unlearning and reject by God's grace. He was married 7 times and was probably never faithful to any of his wives. ( This doesn't include live in girl friends.) So, for you and others here to scoff at those of us that may need a little help learning to think as a man, Biblically, lacks godly wisdom and grace in my estimation.

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## Username3000 (Jul 21, 2019)

Santos said:


> So, that's all there is to Biblical manhood? Chop fire wood, build barns,learn a trade,wrestle, box? Because if that's the case I nailed that a long time ago. I competed in boxing, jujitsu, and MMA (before gloves were used) for years. I am a frame carpenter, boiler maker, sheet metal man and crane operator. I have camped, fished and hunted and done so with my boys. We have spent time on the mat falling, throwing, choking, learning submissions from each position with the finer points of eye gouging and fish hooking when it's not for sport. And so I am a Biblical man?
> 
> I'm glad that your father spent time with you teaching you masculine things. But if he was not a believer ( I am assuming this because you said that you didn't grow up in church) how could he teach you to be a Biblical man? Did he teach you to love your wife as Christ loves the church and laid down His life for her? Did he teach you to pray with and study God's word with her? Did he catechise you and teach you to do the same with your children? Because my father was an unbeliever and he didn't teach me any of those things. He taught me how to drink and ignore my children. He taught me how to lie and blame shift. He taught me how to think of myself first and self love.All of which I am still unlearning and reject by God's grace. He was married 7 times and was probably never faithful to any of his wives. ( This doesn't include live in girl friends.) So, for you and others here to scoff at those of us that may need a little help learning to think as a man, Biblically, lacks godly wisdom and grace in my estimation.



Brother, I’m sure he would agree about this. Perhaps his response is a strong reaction against the effeminate “manliness” of our present age, and not an all-encompassing definition of manhood. 

But I understand your point of view as well. True, biblical manhood is in some ways a complex thing. We need balance at every turn, and wisdom in all things.


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## Pergamum (Jul 21, 2019)

Santos said:


> So, that's all there is to Biblical manhood? Chop fire wood, build barns,learn a trade,wrestle, box? Because if that's the case I nailed that a long time ago. I competed in boxing, jujitsu, and MMA (before gloves were used) for years. I am a frame carpenter, boiler maker, sheet metal man and crane operator. I have camped, fished and hunted and done so with my boys. We have spent time on the mat falling, throwing, choking, learning submissions from each position with the finer points of eye gouging and fish hooking when it's not for sport. And so I am a Biblical man?
> 
> I'm glad that your father spent time with you teaching you masculine things. But if he was not a believer ( I am assuming this because you said that you didn't grow up in church) how could he teach you to be a Biblical man? Did he teach you to love your wife as Christ loves the church and laid down His life for her? Did he teach you to pray with and study God's word with her? Did he catechise you and teach you to do the same with your children? Because my father was an unbeliever and he didn't teach me any of those things. He taught me how to drink and ignore my children. He taught me how to lie and blame shift. He taught me how to think of myself first and self love.All of which I am still unlearning and reject by God's grace. He was married 7 times and was probably never faithful to any of his wives. ( This doesn't include live in girl friends.) So, for you and others here to scoff at those of us that may need a little help learning to think as a man, Biblically, lacks godly wisdom and grace in my estimation.



These things are not ALL there is, but it is a good start. And yes, there is a lot of masculine activities that go into being a man, too.

My father is a better man than 99% of the pastors I meet. He lives very rural and it is hard to find a church, so he meets and listens to a CD of the bible being read once a week with his relatives and prays. I think he's on the 3rd time through now in 5 years. I believe he is a saved man.

When I was 16 he made me read all the proverbs and, with different colored pencils highlight everything about money, sex, and listening to advice. His was a biblical tutelage even if not done inside a church.

My father worked for decades to support his family and then cut firewood in his spare time to pay for my hobbies. He didn't just teach me to love my wife in words only; I saw him love my mom and they've now been married 52 years.

I am not scoffing at you in the least. 

I think you need to find men who can help mentor you. If your father did not teach you, then a coach or another friend can. If you've got the masculine stuff down like physical grit then you could find someone in the other areas of your life. It is never too late to learn. And it IS, indeed, complex - many men lack in the physical grit and hard work and drive. It sounds like you have mastered these things.

You seem very defensive. Sorry if I have offended in any way. My advice is not perfect, but my dad who gave it has been married 52 years and my wife and I just celebrated 20 years. I have much to learn. But I think I also have a little to teach as well. One area that I am struggling with, for instance, is how to raise my children now that my boy is 14 and my girl is 12. The 7 and 3 year old are still little and fun, but the older two are undergoing adjustment and I feel lost many times how to instruct them.

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## Username3000 (Jul 21, 2019)

One man who I really appreciate as far as learning more about biblical manhood is Paul Washer.

If you listen to the full scope of his teaching that has been posted online, you see not merely the hard preaching that gets YouTube hits, but a lot of great teaching about the family, manhood, and womanhood (among other things), all with a very loving and encouraging spirit.

And I like that in addition to faithful exposition of passages about the family, he also touches on things such as physical strength, protecting your family, being an outdoorsman, getting off of social media, how a man should carry himself, etc. Stuff like that. But he doesn’t necessarily speak of those things in a lawful, binding way; much of it is anecdotes about his own life, or the lives of others.

It’s nice to see how manhood plays out in his life (and you have to listen to enough of his messages to gather all of those snippets), and how he seeks to raise his sons to be men.

I highly recommend him, and I am very thankful for him.

https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=Paul+washer+manhood

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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 21, 2019)

I appreciate the "light of nature" argument that Perg is making about manhood.

I learned more about being a man from being a Marine for 21 years than any book will impart.

There's very little in the Scriptures about manhood because it is more like wisdom "caught" than lecturing received.

You see what it looks like to work hard with your hands and not give up. It's refusing to let your children (whether boys or girls) to learn that whining is unacceptable. It's about doing what you require of them.

What the Scriptures teach us principally is how to understand God rightly and take notice of our sin and put it to death. We increasingly see bad assumption we might have assumed (like being macho or overbearing).

The best men are uncompromising but compassionate. They are firm but fair. They are unyielding in their convictions but willing to listen. They don't use their strength as a way to show off but to help the weak. They are willing to stand up to the wicked.

The notion of effeminacy in the ancient world was primarily about an unwillingess to do one's duty. Soft men shirk hard things. It's not about being saved by doing the difficult but it is about knowing what God requires and working tirelessly toward that end.

This past Friday, three of my former Marines walked into a local cigar lounge unexpectedly. It was like a family reunion and we reveled i the things we were able to accomplish. I set out on a vision for something that seemed impossible and they delivered more than I could ever imagine. One of my Marines is now the senior Officer in his specialty. He wasn't my servant but someone I had the privilege to push to new heights. It's so rare to find any place outside of the Marine Corps that trains leaders to be hard and self-sacrificial. I miss it. It's manhood that is developed in the crucible of shared, hard experience.

The ministry can be like that and so can the Church - and it should be. But men have to be willing to do their duty as men. They have to be willing to put in the energy to do the hard work of waking up every day and doing the simple things and not being lazy. As we are pursuing the Lord, He'll take care of putting to death our fleshly attitudes and actions. 

So don't go finding manliness in books or movements. Their prescriptions are either stupid or too narrow. Pursue duty where you are and pursue godliness and it will be caught. If you're a man then mentor the young men around you and tell the flannel-wearing, bearded dude to stop promoting a limited set of activities or formulaic teachings as if they have captured the essence of manhood.

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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2019)

It also didn't help that many in the Neo-Patriarchalism movement have affinities with the Eternal Subordination of the Son.

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## Username3000 (Jul 22, 2019)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I appreciate the "light of nature" argument that Perg is making about manhood.
> 
> I learned more about being a man from being a Marine for 21 years than any book will impart.
> 
> ...



Thank you, brother.


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## Tom Hart (Jul 22, 2019)

Hugh MacKail. Now there was a manly man.

Physically weak from childhood, Hugh MacKail was no soldier. He could not, on account of his weakness, participate with his fellows in the Pentland Rising. After preaching a sermon aimed against the church and state authorities, he was a hunted man. He fled to Holland.

Upon returning to Scotland, MacKail was taken prisoner after the Battle of Rullion Green (28 November 1666). Brought before a Council, he was condemned to suffer the Boot.

He bore his torment with courage. His left leg was shattered, and he was returned to his cell. Yet his resolve did not bend. Hugh MacKail did not give his tormentors anything that would betray his comrades.

The following day, weak and wasted, his smashed limb dragging behind him, Hugh MacKail appeared again before the Council. He was sentenced by his pitiless judges to to be executed four days later. He cried out joyfully, “How good is the news! Four days now until I see Jesus!”

Before his death, he prayed with his fellow prisoners. “Our prayer this day is not to be free from death, but that we may witness before many witnesses a good confession.”

That prayer was answered. Before being hanged, MacKail brought out and read his testimony to the crowd. He then sang from the 31st Psalm:

_Into thine hands I do commit
My spirit; for thou art he,
O thou Jehovah, God of truth,
That hast redeemed me._​
He spoke some final words:

“Now, I leave off to speak any more to creatures, and turn my speech to thee, O Lord. Now I begin my intercourse with God which shall never be broken off. Farewell, father and mother, friends and relations! Farewell, the world and all delights! Farewell, meat and drink! Farewell, sun, moon and stars! Welcome, God and Father! Welcome, sweet Lord Jesus, Mediator of the New Covenant! Welcome, blessed Spirit of grace, God of all consolation! Welcome, glory! Welcome, eternal life! Welcome, death!”​
Never strong in body, but possessed of a powerful spirit, unwavering in the face of brutal torture and death, Hugh MacKail was a godly man, manly after the biblical fashion.

(See a much fuller account of Hugh MacKail, and many other manly martyrs, in the book _Fair Sunshine_ by Jock Purves.)

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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 22, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> hipster





Pergamum said:


> aren't even manly.


I think you are behind the times culturally. This article shows hipsters are common in Manly   https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/f14c368ca72bfc2a21fb5cd69515ec2c


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## Pergamum (Jul 22, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> I think you are behind the times culturally. This article shows hipsters are common in Manly   https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/f14c368ca72bfc2a21fb5cd69515ec2c


If they are hipsters, they ought to move to Hell, Michigan instead of the town of Manly.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 23, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> If they are hipsters, they ought to move to Hell, Michigan instead of the town of Manly.


I had a chuckle at your Manly. Manly is a nice sea side suburb of Sydney.

I would add that a man that can do a lot of physical tasks is not necessarily a real man. I have known farmers who have many practical skills but don't know how to emotionally connect with their children. I believe a real man is balanced physically, emotionally and spiritually. I still have to grow in all three areas.

I do think the Puritans are great to read as one seeks to grow as a godly man. Also the Psalms are helpful for spiritual maturity, and the Proverbs for spiritual wisdom.

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