# How comfortable should a Christian's life be?



## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

I fear that I sometimes fall back on some of my old prosperity teaching days and can tend to wonder where God is when things aren't good. That may be an overly strong statement, I don't really wonder where He is so much, more "why is He allowing this" kind of thing. God does promise to bless us right? He does promise us that the more we give to Him the more He give to us, correct? Is ANY of that in "this life" or are all those promises for the next life?

For example: Why isn't the school I work for run by all Christians? Why don't they do everything in a biblical way? Why aren't all leaders here solid Christians who seek to follow Christ in all that they do?

I'm not even wondering about that specific question but it's an example of what I'm talking about. 

I know Jesus Himself told us to expect persecution, expect to be hated, gossiped about, etc. If this is the case, and obviously it is, is there something wrong with your Christian walk if it's not happening, or not happening very often? Have I compromised too much if "the world" is happy and content with me? AM I in sin if I am left alone by those who don't believe?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 4, 2007)

> I know Jesus Himself told us to expect persecution, expected to be hated, gossiped about, etc. If this is the case, and obviously it is, is there something wrong with your Christian walk if it's not happening, or not happening very often? Have I compromised too much if "the world" is happy and content with me? AM I in sin if I am left alone by those who don't believe?



I am glad you raised this point. Many people think that the only true church is the suffering church. But they don't really believe this. Otherwise they would picket abortion clinics or speak out against sodomy and so get themselves arrested. 

I don't think that every season is supposed to be one of persecution. If it is, then me and you aren't true Christians.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

Yes, I am not looking to go that far, but I am beginning to think life should be more difficult according to the worlds standards than it is, for me any way.


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## tellville (Dec 4, 2007)

houseparent said:


> I know Jesus Himself told us to expect persecution, expect to be hated, gossiped about, etc. If this is the case, and obviously it is, is there something wrong with your Christian walk if it's not happening, or not happening very often? Have I compromised too much if "the world" is happy and content with me? AM I in sin if I am left alone by those who don't believe?



Very interesting question. I've often wondered this myself.


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## Gryphonette (Dec 4, 2007)

I wish I could tell you, Adam, but I've often and uneasily wondered the same thing.

Here's a question...is _not _having to endure persecution and so on a blessing or is it sort of a, well, not a curse, but not exactly a ringing endorsement, either?

This is going to sound really dumb, but I remember reading in an Angela Thirkell novel where a woman who would back out of helping one war effort or another, depending upon personal circumstances, overheard the hostess griping at another woman who had said she'd not be able to be at the next meeting, irritably calling her absence a "nuisance".

When she'd done the same, she'd received a pleasant response.

Hmmmm. Apparently it was a sign of being part of the "inner core" to get scolded. Being released from duty without argument, though agreeable, _wasn't _a sign of favor from Those Who Counted.

I've wondered whether those of us who live out our Christian lives in plenty and freedom aren't likely to find ourselves sitting in the cheap seats at the resurrection feast. Far, far away from the Tex-Mex and chocolate pie. And those who live in ghastly circumstances, enduring stuff that makes us blanch and squirm to hear about, will be the ones we'll hardly be able to see, they'll be so far in front of us.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

But the Lord is with me as a dread warrior;
therefore my persecutors will stumble;
they will not overcome me.
They will be greatly shamed,
for they will not succeed.
Their eternal dishonor
will never be forgotten.
—Jeremiah 20:11 

-Does this not make it sound that we will not always be persecuted successfully? Or, is this about the next life? I ask that because we also read the following-

“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

This makes it sound like our eternal reward is our prize for enduring.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
—Matthew 5:10-12 

Here we're literally told that we're BLESSED when we're treated poorly, that when we are we should be HAPPY about it. Is the opposite true? Is it a "curse" when we're treated well by the world? Should we mourn when we're not persecuted? 


18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
—John 15:18-20 

A sign that we are not in Christ is plainly given here, if the world "LOVES US"! The Lord tells us plainly that the world WILL hate us. Well, what if they don't? Just how big is this? How many people must hate us? Most, some, a little? If my worldly co-workers think I'm awesome, is that good? If they all (who are not Christians) hate me, isn't that good?

When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
—Acts 14:21-22

This is how we *MUST* come into the Kingdom!

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Romans 8:35-39

My life is NOTHING like that!

nor this-

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
—2 Corinthians 4:8-11

For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
—2 Corinthians 12:10 

Lord forgive me, but I am NOT content with those things, I fight them and try to rid myself of them.

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1 Peter 4:16

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
—1 Peter 4:12-14, 16 

Let it be so with me!

For could it not get any more plain and in your face than this?

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
—2 Timothy 3:12


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## VictorBravo (Dec 4, 2007)

Gryphonette said:


> Far, far away from the Tex-Mex and chocolate pie.



When you put it that way, I'm almost ready to go looking for persecution. Add a bit of fresh whipped cream and you've pushed me over the edge. 

But really, are we called to look for trouble or bemoan comfort? Perhaps we can recognize that such conditions themselves are a real challenge to faith. Maybe that is why God put some of us in those circumstances, to learn to be zealous stewards in our comfort.

A couple of verses from the old preacher:

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.


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## Matthias (Dec 4, 2007)

Here is a quote from an article I have read on this subject.... I have always found this passage beautifully helpful in my walk...

Speaking on Christian suffering...

"We must learn of it and taste of it now, while it is not too late. Not that we must run to a life of pain. Rather, we know that if we run to a life lived according to God, we will surely suffer those temporal punishments and spiritual benefits that such a life engenders. It is not a religious life, it is an intense spiritual life of contrasting experiences: Spiritual Joy and Temporal Suffering.

Any other gospel preached is a gospel that proclaims that gain is godliness, and from such we are surely to separate ourselves." Michael Bunker 

The entire aricle can be found here : LazarusUnbound.com — Preparing The Underground Church


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

Vic-when you get the chance, can you reply to my verses?


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

Thanks Jeff, I'll read that! I am not advocating "running to pain and suffering" but rather evaluating our life by the complete lack of it, or the extreme lack of it. If my worst persecution comes from being unfairly treated by co-workers and the occasional administrator, and when it does I am angry and seek to eliminate it as quickly as possible so I can go back to being content and happy, that's wrong, right? Also, it's not much suffering for a Christian, is it?


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## VictorBravo (Dec 4, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Vic-when you get the chance, can you reply to my verses?



Sorry, Adam, I missed your post. (forgot to refresh). I'll try to get to it later. Right now I'm just starting a Corporate Tax class.


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## Davidius (Dec 4, 2007)

The scriptures speak of suffering but they also speak of having a good reputation with those outside the Church (specifically elders) and living at peace with those around us. I don't think the words about persecution demand any kind of constant maltreatment by unbelievers. It means that, when the time comes (be it a conversation, an immoral public act, etc.) we will find ourselves at odds and, at that time, probably persecuted. Other than that, we live our quiet lives and get along with our neighbors. We're both citizens of the kingdom of man, after all.

Several of the verses you quoted were from Paul talking about his personal life as an apostle and the lives of other apostles. We shouldn't assume that our lives must be like Paul's anymore than we should assume that "Jesus did X, therefore I must also do X."

And there are other ways of suffering than by being attacked verbally or physically. The world only accounts for one third of our trouble. We also have the flesh and the devil. No matter what our struggles are like with the first one, we have plenty of trials, tribulations, and suffering to deal with from the second two.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

Davidus:

What if living our lives causes us to get attention? For example, if I try and reflect the love of Christ to the young ladies we work with and that upsets those around me who think I should be mean, short, and crass like they are how do I live peacefully amongst that? I don't fight and argue with them but I will continue to do the Godly thing.

Do you not think many Christians are in my boat, but compromise to remain at peace? I've compromised for YEARS and I simply no longer feel as if I should. I've made peace with the world around me when I should not have. 

Can you convince me that isn't true?


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## Gryphonette (Dec 4, 2007)

*Do you think perhaps 1 Timothy 2 is applicable?*

_First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth._ (vv. 1-4)

According to this, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with living a "tranquil and quiet life", so long as we do so in "all godliness and dignity."

Okay, that last could stand a deal of improvement in my case, but still....

And doesn't this seem to say that the reason for praying for peace so we can live in tranquility is that such a life provides increased opportunity for "_men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"?_

Yet it tends to be a given that where the Church is persecuted, the faith grows exponentially, especially contrasted with fat and happy societies such as America, Finland, and so on.

Perhaps it's a matter of there is room for both situations to exist on the planet: areas enjoying tranquility and quietude, with believers who can go about their business unmolested, and areas of persecution and pain, with believers who suffer daily for Christ. And over time, the situations in various regions change, so that those who had been suffering now revel in a period of calm, while those who had become accustomed to calm are finding themselves learning what Christian persecution actually _is_.

We like to imagine were we to be persecuted, we'd stand boldly for the faith, but the unvarnished truth is I'm a coward when it comes to pain, and I greatly fear were I to have hot pokers or the like aimed at me, I'd fold like a bad hand of poker.

In other words,, it's probably just as well I am where I am.


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## satz (Dec 4, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Davidus:
> 
> What if living our lives causes us to get attention? For example, if I try and reflect the love of Christ to the young ladies we work with and that upsets those around me who think I should be mean, short, and crass like they are how do I live peacefully amongst that? I don't fight and argue with them but I will continue to do the Godly thing.
> 
> ...



Adam,

I am not sure I understand you, but how do you feel that what you hav described here means you are compromising with the world?


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, when I get treated poorly because of the way I live, or treat our girls I have often sought to appease those who have treated me poorly rather than standing up for my principals, thus the word of God. That may not mean that I've done something hideous, but simply backed away from what I know is right and can prove in scripture to be right. When I've compromised the heat on me has gone down or completely away, but I feel guilty.


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## satz (Dec 4, 2007)

Thanks, Adam.


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## Thomas2007 (Dec 5, 2007)

houseparent said:


> I fear that I sometimes fall back on some of my old prosperity teaching days and can tend to wonder where God is when things aren't good. That may be an overly strong statement, I don't really wonder where He is so much, more "why is He allowing this" kind of thing. God does promise to bless us right? He does promise us that the more we give to Him the more He give to us, correct? Is ANY of that in "this life" or are all those promises for the next life?
> 
> For example: Why isn't the school I work for run by all Christians? Why don't they do everything in a biblical way? Why aren't all leaders here solid Christians who seek to follow Christ in all that they do?
> 
> ...



The Scripture teaches that:

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." 2 Timothy 3:12

Does one have to be beaten, imprisoned or have their life threatened to suffer persecution?
Ultimately, one has to dismiss the romantic notions of suffering persecution, that seem to be
popular today. I often hear how people "will die for Jesus Christ," but when it comes to living for
Him and suffering some loss that isn't even in their conceptions of being a valid consideration
as they have a false presupposition of what taking a stand on anything that really matters and
suffering persecution as a result of it even is.

I think the cultural despising that we suffer today when you try to be a witness
of the truth of Christ is also a cruel form of persecution because it is primarily psychological.
To have yourself and ideas summarily dismissed in the culture, making you not even worthy
of physical abuse, of even acknowledgment that anything you think or believe has any validity
is not an easy thing.

I think most Christians aren't a real threat because they don't engage in the battle in any meaningful
way. In America, especially, most Christians live in compartments and to take the Faith outside of the
limited compartment in which it exists for them is presuppositionally wrong, so they never engage in
the battle. Often the worst form of persecution often comes from the family or Church itself and not from
the "world" per se.


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## Matthias (Dec 5, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Thanks Jeff, I'll read that! I am not advocating "running to pain and suffering" but rather evaluating our life by the complete lack of it, or the extreme lack of it. If my worst persecution comes from being unfairly treated by co-workers and the occasional administrator, and when it does I am angry and seek to eliminate it as quickly as possible so I can go back to being content and happy, that's wrong, right? Also, it's not much suffering for a Christian, is it?



I hear you Brother... I have struggled with this myself. All I can say is that your current situation may not seem like much suffering, but it is SOME... 

It does also seem like your conscience is bothering you about maybe compromising a tad to much. In that regard I say we are all guilty but it is a battle we must face and win. We need to be able to back up what we believe with our lives as a testimony NO MATTER what the cost. This is not easy and I believe only accomplished with much Prayer.

Also there comes a time, I believe sooner rather than later, that I fear we will all have our fair share of persecution. It will not be pretty. Times of freedom and peace are truly a blessing for the saints.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

> I think most Christians aren't a real threat because they don't engage in the battle in any meaningful way.



I agree


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## Davidius (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, we have to battle with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Without the first there are still plenty of trials, tribulations and battles to be fought with the second two. I know you specifically mentioned persecution, but I think the question of Paul's exhortation to live peacefully and quietly and respectfully juxtaposed with the passages about persecution is a problem we both have to answer. I'm not sure I have a good one but I know that the right answer is not to use one to trump the other.

For example, I don't consider it my responsibility to be the "Jesus police" in my secular employment. I try to live a godly life and "be ready to give an answer." Giving an answer is not an active thing. It's a response to being approached by others. The actual "bringing" of the Gospel is the job of ministers (like Paul, who talked about how miserable his life was. But we aren't Paul. And we don't do everything Paul and Jesus did.). Doing well in my studies is glorifying to God in itself. If I, upon "giving an answer," am persecuted, then I am experiencing a little bit of what you have been referring to.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

> We need to be able to back up what we believe with our lives as a testimony NO MATTER what the cost. This is not easy and I believe only accomplished with much Prayer.



Join me in prayer tonight for a meeting I have tomorrow and a meeting I have on Thursday then.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Well, we have to battle with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Without the first there are still plenty of trials, tribulations and battles to be fought with the second two. I know you specifically mentioned persecution, but I think the question of Paul's exhortation to live peacefully and quietly and respectfully juxtaposed with the passages about persecution is a problem we both have to answer. I'm not sure I have a good one but I know that the right answer is not to use one to trump the other.



What if you attempt to live at peace with some men who will not allow you to? What if in the midst of your attempts they challenge you and what you believe. You can back away a little or be persecuted. Then what?


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## Davidius (Dec 5, 2007)

houseparent said:


> CarolinaCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> > Well, we have to battle with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Without the first there are still plenty of trials, tribulations and battles to be fought with the second two. I know you specifically mentioned persecution, but I think the question of Paul's exhortation to live peacefully and quietly and respectfully juxtaposed with the passages about persecution is a problem we both have to answer. I'm not sure I have a good one but I know that the right answer is not to use one to trump the other.
> ...



I think you wrote this while I was adding on a second paragraph to my last statement. In this case it would certainly be right for us to stick to our principles and suffer persecution. 

But you should remember that what you are describing depends on circumstances. There is a huge difference between saying what one should do when faced with a certain situation and what every Christian's life _must look like_. I am ready to give an answer! But if opportunities for me to be rowdy don't come up, I don't, as I mentioned previously, appoint myself "Jesus police" on campus. Trying to make a generalized norm out of certain circumstances can lead to putting unbiblical burdens on others' souls, especially in light of the "other side" we've been discussing, i.e. the "quiet, respectful, attempting-to-get-along" life described by Paul. The only way to do it would be to add the unbiblical premise, as I used to do when I was a charismatic, that everyone who isn't a missionary is wasting his life.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

While I thank you for the post and appreciate where you're coming from, that gets a little too close to saying that certain passages are for certain people (pastors and not laymen) for my comfort. I do what I can to live peacefully amongst all men, but I don't think part of that is to give in to pressures to live less boldly for Christ. I wouldn't say I am "the Jesus police" though. In my line of work, many, many, MANY, people believe that you treat the children you work with harshly and borderline cruel because it "builds character". I don't think that's Godly in any way, shape, or form.


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## Davidius (Dec 5, 2007)

I understand. I'm certainly open to hearing more of what you and others have to say. The statements about being persecuted as well as living peacably with all men have confused me in the past. I don't claim to have a full answer. For my own part, I think I tend to lean more to a certain side because I know I have a tendency to create burdens, particularly for myself and also for others.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

Ah, I can see that point. I don't want to make anyone feel like they need to go and look for trouble(lol) just that we shouldn't go out of our way to avoid it either.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

Quickly-what about Daniel? He prayed daily with his windows open, when the law was passed that one could pray to no one but the king, couldn't he have simply shut the windows before he prayed? I mean the bible says to go into your closet, doesn't it?

Hmmmm


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## Matthias (Dec 5, 2007)

houseparent said:


> > We need to be able to back up what we believe with our lives as a testimony NO MATTER what the cost. This is not easy and I believe only accomplished with much Prayer.
> 
> 
> 
> Join me in prayer tonight for a meeting I have tomorrow and a meeting I have on Thursday then.



I will be Praying with you Brother!


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## Iconoclast (Dec 5, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Quickly-what about Daniel? He prayed daily with his windows open, when the law was passed that one could pray to no one but the king, couldn't he have simply shut the windows before he prayed? I mean the bible says to go into your closet, doesn't it?
> 
> Hmmmm



If I am following this thread correctly it seems like you are dealing with two struggles at once. The tension of these verses in Lk.6



> 26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
> 
> 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
> 
> 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.



and this from Eccl.7 



> 14In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.



You could be in Eccl.7:14 situations where you are prospering. but that prosperity[spiritual prosperity] will be cut short, if you shrink back from a biblical stand to "keep the peace" when afterwards your conscience which is now becoming more and more biblically educated smites you. [Lk.6]
You can perhaps re-adress some of these situations in the future among your co-workers by simply being honest with them and explaining that upon further consideration of the issue you feel you might have not really said or acted in a way that you feel is consistent with your understanding of how our life is to be.
If possible you can even explain that you thought if you were a little more forceful in your actions it might have caused strife that you sought to avoid. But upon further reflection you would like for them to consider the additonal thoughts you have had on it. Is this what you are thinking about?


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

That sounds pretty close, yes.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 5, 2007)

Adam,

Like yourself, I have worked in human services for most of my career (before I retired), as a house parent for various populations, staff in a crisis-intervention walk-in & hotline center, teaching ass't in special ed schools, etc. Usually these settings are founded upon secular humanist principles. I have been told to "leave [my] faith at the gate" and such (the director who issued that ultimatum was fired after a while). But I was able to quietly serve the people I worked with, often -- and quietly -- bearing witness to the "secret" of my joy and the source of my life. 

If you were to be more confrontational with those (staff or supervisors) who challenge you on faith issues, and for your "stand-up" witness you got fired ("persecuted"), you would deprive the girls of the nurture and admonition of the Lord you grace them with. So you have to weigh the consequences of your actions. Wisdom is knowing what moves to make, and when. The Scripture says, "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." (Eccl 3:1, 7)

If you were to get fired because of a _compulsion_ to witness (driven by guilt), would that serve those you have a ministry to? Sometimes Christian "militancy" is inappropriate, especially in delicate situations of service. If you are put into a clear quandary as was Daniel or his three friends, then you opt for Biblical integrity. But if being "aggressive" per the calling of some, _but not all_, gets you canned, perhaps you have been marching to someone else's drumbeat, but not the one given you. 

Paul did say prayers for those over us should be made "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." Wisdom is knowing when to speak, and when to keep quiet, especially when the wicked bear rule over us.

The may indeed come a time in our generation when the darkness is so powerful and overwhelming we must speak out, loving not our lives even unto the death. We need to be prepared for that. But "compulsive witnessing" is a bane, a drivenness not of God. It is a question of balance and wisdom.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's a thread from a related topic a while back. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/self-denial-vs-enjoying-blessings-12131/


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## kvanlaan (Dec 5, 2007)

Adam, I always enjoy this particular sermon on this particular subject. This is from the HNRC in Chiliwack, British Columbia (a wild and crazy bunch of Calvinists - great preaching!) It's called "The World's Hatred for the Church".

SermonAudio.com - World's hatred for the Church

I love the ending. Basically, "Why aren't we being persecuted, though we claim to be His??" 

Nice Dutch accent too!


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## kvanlaan (Dec 5, 2007)

> just that we shouldn't go out of our way to avoid it either.



Exactly. I've seen many a 'tentmaker' out here say that if he doesn't compromise (i.e. bend on the Moral Law to stay in business and continue his witness) then he can't do God's Work here. That argument's about as thin as they come.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 5, 2007)

Steve-this isn't about blatant, strong, "in your face" witnessing. I used to do that as an Arminian who thought it was my job to "save" everyone. I am talking about a work style that loves kids, I call it "relational structure", a true balance between being structured through the building of relationships. Should we in this line of work, be forced to secretly care about those we work with, but publicly make it seem as though we don't, or as if we don't "too much"?


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## VictorBravo (Dec 5, 2007)

Adam, it looks like a lot has come out in the discussion while I slept, but there is one thing that I think you are asking for: how do you deal with challenging and possibly hateful co-workers?

Perhaps it would help to stand back and remember who the strong one is. Our Lord Christ. Not us. By resting in that strength, you can let go of fearing the buffets and be quietly firm. I'm not spouting a platitude, I hope, but rather a real-life practical approach to life.

I can only give my own experience here, and my temperment may be different from yours in execution, but I remind myself every day that some things are non-negotiable. A challenge to my faith is one of them. I don't have to respond in a confrontational manner to such challenge at all. I merely meet it with a soft and firm voice.

For example, when I first started my job, there was tremendous pressure to participate in various programs and seminars featuring new-age productivity gurus. They featured things like visualization, role playing, self-hypnosis, etc. They were conducted on company time, so it was considered part of the job. 

The managing partner came into my office and asked me to volunteer to coordinate it. I replied, politely, that I could not, and that I would not even attend it. She looked surprised and asked me "why not?" I responded, again, soft-spoken, "what you are asking me to do violates the core of my Christian faith. I believe that such exercises are spiritually very dangerous and harmful. I cannot do it without violating my conscience."

That was that. I wasn't fired, I wasn't ridiculed. And, as a bonus, although the scheduled event went on without me, there weren't any more. All of this came about without me having to invoke legal rights or make threats or trouble.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can be firm and uncompromising in a low-key and non-controversial manner. It may bring a calming of tensions in the long run. People understand the boundaries and are less likely to keep testing them.

And another bonus, one of the other partners in the firm has now started asking me about this Christian stuff. 

Praying for you, brother.


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## Barnpreacher (Dec 5, 2007)

Adam,

I was just listening to a message by Tim Keller and something he said made me think about this thread. He quoted 
I Peter 2:11-12:



> Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.



Basically Keller was saying that as Christians we are strangers and pilgrims in this world. The gospel has created a culture called the Church. As members of Christ's body we are to be a counterculture in the world we live in. Yet, the gospel also allows us as people to relate to the culture around us. So, the gospel teaches us to avoid legalism and cultural isolation. Yet, the gospel teaches us to avoid liberalism and culture accomodation as well. 

So I Peter 2:11-12 teaches us that it's not sometimes we will be persecuted and spoken against as evildoers, and other times people will see our good deeds and glorify God. That's not what those verses in Peter are teaching us. They are teaching us that because we are in the Body of Christ these two things will happen at the same time when we truly live the gospel life. 

If we just withdraw from the world and hate the world (legalism) then God is not glorified in our lives because we are not involved and engaged in gospel activity. And if we hug up to the world to the point that no persecution is spoken against us (liberalism) then we're not engaged in gospel activity either. 

The gospel teaches us to be a counterculture that is very distinct and different from the world around us. YET, the gospel also teaches us to love the world and love our enemies and forgive our enemies like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did. 

It's a tremendous balance that comes only from living the gospel. Keller uses the Babylonian exiles of Jeremiah 29 as an example. God told them he didn't want them to just withdraw from the world, nor did he want them to become like the world. He wanted them to live in the world and love the people of the world as a counterculture. When this is done in the power of the gospel today we will suffer persecution, and yet the glory of God will be revealed in our lives as well.

I'm not sure if this is what you were really getting at, but it seems along the same lines. Plus, it helped me put these notes down on paper after listening to Keller's sermon. It will help the tremendous truth of living out the gospel life sink in even more.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 6, 2007)

Thanks, considering all that right now.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 6, 2007)

Adam,

No, I did not think you were "in their face" at all. If the issue is about the degree of genuine caring expressed, and some criticize you for openly having a heart, then I think you are on solid ground. I know that in human services there is a maxim not to get "emotionally involved" with the people we care for/serve, but this is easily answered by showing the complete lack of emotional empathy and its destructive results. It sounds to me like you are balanced in your approach.

I will be praying for you in this.


Ryan,

Tim Keller was my wife's and my pastor for over 5 years. Under his ministry, we became rooted and grounded in the love of God in Christ, and this has profoundly impacted our lives and ministries. We still listen to his sermons here overseas.


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## Barnpreacher (Dec 6, 2007)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Tim Keller was my wife's and my pastor for over 5 years. Under his ministry, we became rooted and grounded in the love of God in Christ, and this has profoundly impacted our lives and ministries. We still listen to his sermons here overseas.



I'm sure that was an amazing blessing, Steve. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and place myself under the ministry of a guy like Tim Keller instead of the dispensational, semi-pelagian stuff I heard for so many years. But then I think I probably wouldn't appreciate the Reformed doctrines of the faith as much as I do now if that had been the case. 

God's blessings upon you my brother.


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## Blueridge Believer (Dec 7, 2007)

The burdens of prosperity

(Thomas Watson, "The Lord's Prayer")

People are usually better in adversity, than prosperity. 
A prosperous condition is not always so safe. True, it 
is more pleasing to the flesh--but it is not always best. 
In a prosperous state, there is more burden. Many 
look at the shining and glittering of prosperity--but 
not at the burdens of prosperity.

[1] There is the burden of CARE. Therefore God calls 
riches "cares." Luke 8:14. A rose has its prickles--so 
have riches. We think them happy, who flourish in 
their silks and gold--but we do not see the troubles
and cares which attend them! A shoe may have silver 
lace on it--yet pinch the foot. Many a man who goes 
to his hard labor, lives a more contented life than he 
who has millions. Disquieting care is the evil spirit 
which haunts the rich man. When his chests are full 
of gold--his heart is full of care how to increase them, 
or how to secure what he has gotten. A large estate, 
like a long, trailing garment--is often more 
troublesome than useful.

[2] In a prosperous estate there is the burden of 
ACCOUNT. Such as are in high places, have a far 
greater account to give to God than others. "Unto 
whom much is given--of him shall be much required." 
The more golden talents any are entrusted with--the 
more they have to answer for. The more their revenues
--the more their reckonings. God will say, "I gave you 
a great estate--what have you done with it? How have 
you employed it for My glory?" 

[3] A prosperous condition has more DANGER in it. 
Such as are on the top of the pinnacle of honor--are 
in more danger of falling. They are subject to many 
temptations. Their table is often a snare. Millions are
drowned in the sweet waters of pleasure. 

A large sail overturns the vessel. Many, by having a too 
large sail of prosperity, have had their souls overturned! 
He has need have much wisdom and grace, to know how 
to wisely bear a high condition. It is hard to carry a full 
cup without spilling--and a full estate without sinning!

Prosperity breeds pride. When the tide rises higher in 
the river, the boat rises higher; so, when the tide of an 
estate rises higher, many men's hearts rise higher in 
pride. Prosperity breeds carnal security. Samson fell 
asleep in Delilah's lap--so do men in the lap of ease 
and plenty. The world's golden sands, are quicksands. 

God knows what is best for us. If we have less estate, we 
are in less danger. If we lack the riches and honors of 
others--so we lack their temptations. "How hard it is for 
rich people to get into the Kingdom of God! It is easier 
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a 
rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Luke 18:24-25.


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