# Thoughts on Tithing



## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

Considering the element of worship - the tithe:

1. Tithing is an act of obedience - that is - tithing is a Scriptural directive
and reveals our spiritual maturity and total reliance on God for our provision,
thus we should set aside a certain amount and give with no prompting.
(Deuteronomy 14:22, Malachi 3:7-9, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, Mark 12:41-44)

2. Tithing is a response in gratitude - that is - as we worship, the elements
of worship - song, prayer, the sacraments (baptism, the Lord's Supper), the
reading of Scripture and the preaching thereof, causes a resonance and response
in our spirit, through the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 9:7, Romans 12:8)

That being said, does your church give an opportunity to practice
factor 1, but not factor 2 in its fullness? 

Point being - should the offertory be at the end of the worship service?

I'll start a poll.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 14, 2007)

How about the option, "It doesn't belong at all in the order of worship." 1 vote for that.

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## Blueridge Believer (Aug 14, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> How about the option, "It doesn't belong at all in the order of worship." 1 vote for that.

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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

Can an admin add "Does not belong at all"? to the poll? and change Chris' vote?


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> How about the option, "It doesn't belong at all in the order of worship." 1 vote for that.



So, by your response - you believe factor 2 to be invalid?


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 14, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> Can an admin add "Does not belong at all"? to the poll? and change Chris' vote?


I changed the poll, but not the vote since I hadn't voted. If the person who voted other wants to change his vote to doesn't belong, send me a PM.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 14, 2007)

The tithe and offering is an act of private worship, which is why those churches that have held to this have traditionally kept the "box" in the foyer or back of the church.


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## Blueridge Believer (Aug 14, 2007)

I voted "does not belong" because I view tithing to be a ceremonial law that has been done away with. It was the inheritance of the tribe of Levi. I think some use tithing as an excuse to not give in a sacrificial manner out of a heart of love. Tithing is a good standard in my opinion, but I do not believe it can be taught as binding upon NT believers. 
We keep the offering box in the back of the church.

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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The tithe and offering is an act of private worship, which is why those churches that have held to this have traditionally kept the "box" in the foyer or back of the church.



Not necessarily disagreeing, but what about the widow in Mark 12:41-44? That was not private....


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> I voted "does not belong" because I view tithing to be a ceremonial law that has been done away with. It was the inheritance of the tribe of Levi. I think some use tithing as an excuse to not give in a sacrificial manner out of a heart of love. Tithing is a good standard in my opinion, but I do not believe it can be taught as binding upon NT believers.
> We keep the offering box in the back of the church.



So you'd title Factor 1 as Tithing and Factor 2 as Offertory and would say Factor 1 has been abolished?


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## A5pointer (Aug 14, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > The tithe and offering is an act of private worship, which is why those churches that have held to this have traditionally kept the "box" in the foyer or back of the church.
> ...



Still under the OLD


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## Blueridge Believer (Aug 14, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I voted "does not belong" because I view tithing to be a ceremonial law that has been done away with. It was the inheritance of the tribe of Levi. I think some use tithing as an excuse to not give in a sacrificial manner out of a heart of love. Tithing is a good standard in my opinion, but I do not believe it can be taught as binding upon NT believers.
> ...



I would certainly agree that giving is a mark of spiritual maturity and a good work that manifests a work of grace in the heart. However it is done, I just have a problem with calling it a tithe. However, my view on the sabbath has changed recently, so a new study on this issue is in order. Maybe I'll read Pink's book on the subject.


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

A5pointer said:


> jdlongmire said:
> 
> 
> > NaphtaliPress said:
> ...



So - to repeat an earlier question:

You'd title Factor 1 as Tithing and Factor 2 as Offertory and would say Factor 1 has been abolished? Or do you think the Offering is abolished, too?


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## Coram Deo (Aug 14, 2007)

Tithing was an Old Covenant Ceremonial/Judicial law. It consisted of both a Religious tax for the temple and it also consisted of a government tax for the Theocracy of Israel. It also consisted of not just monetary givings but also other stuff like wine, grain, wheat, and hay.

It ceased when the nation of Israel ceased to exist. But we are still suppose to give our oblations and thankofferings in the New Covenant. In otherwords we are to give our sacrifices of gladness and thanksgiving to the Lord. Tithing ceased but Almsgiving did not. Our Alms are given with a heart of love and what the Lord places on our heart and within our means. There is no 10th, there is no set Minimum nor Maximum. Give with a cheerful heart is the new covenant command.

When is Alms suppose to be collect? Well the examples of the New Testament tells us that it was done on the first day of the week, the Christian Sabbath. But it *never* tells us it was done in Corporate/Public Worship. It is in my opinion not a element of corporate worship and so does not belong there at all. This is why historically churches had a Almsgiving Box at the box of the church for our oblations before or after worship.

The other idea is the passage that tells us not to let our Almsgiving to be a public display or to let other people see us. Matthew Chapter 6 verse 1, Take heed that ye do not give your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in heaven. 2, Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily, I say unto you, They have their reward.

Summary

1. Tithing has ceased as a Ceremonial/Judicial Law
2. Almsgiving remains a New Covenant Principle with no set limits or tenths
3. Almsgiving was collects on Sunday the Christian Sabbath
4. Almsgiving is our sacrifices of oblations and thankofferings (Private)
5. Almsgiving is never commanded nor exampled during worship nor commanded as a element of public worship.
6. Almsgiving is not to be displayed, nor seen before men. Which is hard to do when the plate is passed from person to person.




jdlongmire said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I voted "does not belong" because I view tithing to be a ceremonial law that has been done away with. It was the inheritance of the tribe of Levi. I think some use tithing as an excuse to not give in a sacrificial manner out of a heart of love. Tithing is a good standard in my opinion, but I do not believe it can be taught as binding upon NT believers.
> ...

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## Blueridge Believer (Aug 14, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Tithing was an Old Covenant Ceremonial/Judicial law. It consisted of both a Religious tax for the temple and it also consisted of a government tax for the Theocracy of Israel. It also consisted of not just monetary givings but also other stuff like wine, grain, wheat, and hay.
> 
> It ceased when the nation of Israel ceased to exist. But we are still suppose to give our oblations and thankofferings in the New Covenant. In otherwords we are to give our sacrifices of gladness and thanksgiving to the Lord. Tithing ceased but Almsgiving did not. Our Alms are given with a heart of love and what the Lord places on our heart and within our means. There is no 10th, there is no set Minimum nor Maximum. Give with a cheerful heart is the new covenant command.
> 
> ...




 What he said!


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

Almsgiving is not Offering or Tithing - although I am beginning to see that it is probably a sub-component of both, I suppose...actually Tithing and Almsgiving are probably sub-components of Offering...this is a good dialog!

Maybe I should have named the thread - "Thoughts on Offering"...


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## Reformed Baptist (Aug 14, 2007)

Put a box in the back and let people give when they come.


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 14, 2007)

In the early church, at least according to Hippolytus, the offering was done prior to the Lord's Supper.


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## Nse007 (Aug 14, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Tithing was an Old Covenant Ceremonial/Judicial law. It consisted of both a Religious tax for the temple and it also consisted of a government tax for the Theocracy of Israel. It also consisted of not just monetary givings but also other stuff like wine, grain, wheat, and hay.
> 
> It ceased when the nation of Israel ceased to exist. But we are still suppose to give our oblations and thankofferings in the New Covenant. In otherwords we are to give our sacrifices of gladness and thanksgiving to the Lord. Tithing ceased but Almsgiving did not. Our Alms are given with a heart of love and what the Lord places on our heart and within our means. There is no 10th, there is no set Minimum nor Maximum. Give with a cheerful heart is the new covenant command.
> 
> ...



Though I love my brother Michael dearly, I have to politely dissagree. Abraham is recorded as giving a tithe to Melchizidek way before the Levitical/ceremonial law of Covenant Isreal was established. Also, if we use the classic reformed hermeneutic of not nullifying a law or practice unless specifically repealed in the New Testament than the view of tithing being done away with does not hold. Bottom line, the people of God have always tithed and given offerings. It's still God's tenth whether we recognize it or not.


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## Coram Deo (Aug 14, 2007)

Dear Prefessor Nse, 

I love you to brother. ... But here is what my thinking is on the matter....

1. You said "if we use the classic reformed hermeneutic of not nullifying a law or practice unless specifically repealed in the New Testament than the view of tithing being done away with does not hold."

I do believe it has been nullified in the New Testament with II Corinthians 9:6-7 
"6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver."

A tenth is no longer required but let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity.

Also if you believe the tithe is still for us today read Leviticus 27:30-32 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD ; it is holy to the LORD . If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it. The entire tithe of the herd and flock-every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod-will be holy to the LORD."

When was the last time you gave a tenth of everything from your land, grain, fruit, animals, etc..

2. Father Abraham was still under the Old Covenant when he gave a tithe. Also this meeting of Melchizedek with Abraham is seen as a precursor to the tithing that would be required under the Law given to Moses which is no longer required under the New Covenant. 

3. Now Consider Hebrews 7:5 & 12 & 18:

"5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people--that is, their brothers--even though their brothers are descended from Abraham... 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law...18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless..." 

Now Also Consider Hebrews 8:13:

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." 

According to Hebrews 7 tithing was a given as part of the Mosaic Law and the "old" Covenant. It was not a universal method of giving prescribed by God for all peoples and all times. Hebrews tells us with our new priest(Jesus Christ) there was a change of law(from Old Testament law to New Testament law) and that "The former regulation is set aside" and the old Covenant is now "obsolete".

Biblical teachings appear to indicate that although tithing was practiced extensively in the Old Testament it was never practiced nor taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures seem to teach the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church.




Nse007 said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > Tithing was an Old Covenant Ceremonial/Judicial law. It consisted of both a Religious tax for the temple and it also consisted of a government tax for the Theocracy of Israel. It also consisted of not just monetary givings but also other stuff like wine, grain, wheat, and hay.
> ...

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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 14, 2007)

My 
If you wish to keep the box surreptitiously (not using that term pejoratively, but in the Mat. 6:3 fashion) in the back, fine.

But I do believe that it is legitimate, public devotion, and furthermore I believe that placed within the worship service, it is a regular, conspicuous, pertinent reminder _without even using words_ of the duty to give to the Work of God (whether you subscribe to tithing or not).

If the opportunity continually passes you by (literally), and there (or elsewhere, later) you NEVER respond--you are certainly sinning against knowledge.


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

So where did you vote for, on placement in the service?

And why?


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 14, 2007)

I think putting it at the beginning or the end is a misplacement. In either case, it could be taken as payment for service, wrong message. 1) "'Here's some money, can I have a blessing?" or 2) "That was a lousy service, here's a nickel."

I think it goes very well after acknowledgment and thanksgiving for pardon and cleansing by the gospel. "Freely ye have received; freely give."


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## Civbert (Aug 14, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> 2. Tithing is a response in gratitude - that is - as we worship, the elements of worship - song, prayer, the sacraments (baptism, the Lord's Supper), the
> reading of Scripture and the preaching thereof, causes a resonance and response
> in our spirit, through the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 9:7, Romans 12:8)



Does that mean if I'm not excited by the sermon or the singing I don't have to tithe? What is a "response of the spirit" entail?


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## panta dokimazete (Aug 14, 2007)

Civbert said:


> Does that mean if I'm not excited by the sermon or the singing I don't have to tithe?


 see factor 1 



> What is a "response of the spirit" entail?



a fullness of response, or outpouring, in gratitude to the Lord for the gift of worship, a place to go and workers to lead...


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## jbergsing (Aug 14, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> If the opportunity continually passes you by (literally), and there (or elsewhere, later) you NEVER respond--you are certainly sinning against knowledge.


*OUCH ! ! ! *

I have never given the topic of this thread any thought. Are there churches out there that simply have a box set up somewhere? I've certainly never seen it.


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## KMK (Aug 14, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> My
> If you wish to keep the box surreptitiously (not using that term pejoratively, but in the Mat. 6:3 fashion) in the back, fine.
> 
> But I do believe that it is legitimate, public devotion, and furthermore I believe that placed within the worship service, it is a regular, conspicuous, pertinent reminder _without even using words_ of the duty to give to the Work of God (whether you subscribe to tithing or not).
> ...



Wait a minute! Now that I think of it, what did you mean by 'end'? I voted for 'the end' but actually we don't do it at the 'very' end. We do it after the sermon. Does that count as 'the end'? 

Bruce makes a good point though, if my sermon stinks it might bring the offering down!


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## Calvibaptist (Aug 14, 2007)

There are many factors that go into placement of the offering, assuming a church doesn't just place a box in the back (which also is not completely private, since people can still see you putting something in it).

I just finished reading a chapter by Nick Needham in _Give Praise to God_ on how worship services developed throughout history. It seems that a typical worship service described by Justin Martyr involved an offering, where food was brought to the table by the congregation and used for communion and then given to those in need. This was typically done after the preaching of the word and after unbelievers had been dismissed towards the beginning of the second half of the service.

We used to do it towards the end of the service seeing it as a response to the Word having been preached. However we recently moved it forward in the service as a response to the announcement of forgiveness right before gathering at the table. So, right now, it is in the middle.

I don't think you can ever make the offering completely private unless people just mail in their checks. Even if you kept the box in a separate room altogether, people would see who was going in and out of the room and the less mature would speculate about who wasn't going in or how much so-and-so put in.

The real concern is that 1 Corinthians 16 makes it clear that we are to set aside as the Lord has prosper us on the first day of the week. Paul makes this command a corporate act. As a corporate act, it is no longer just a private matter, but a matter of corporate worship. Now, as to what the offering is used for, that is another discussion altogether...


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## Kristine with a K (Aug 14, 2007)

Dropping your copper coins or check with a lot of zero's on it into a box at church seems more consistent w/Scripture than having it part of the public service where anyone who is paying attention can see who is "giving" and who is not. The church I am at has the box in the foyer; all other churches I've attended had the offertory in the service. I'd never questioned it before. Thumbs up for the box!


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## Calvibaptist (Aug 14, 2007)

Or we could be like the Jews who require the members of the synagogue to pay dues!


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## JonathanHunt (Aug 14, 2007)

We have offering boxes on the back wall of the church building. I always refer to our offerings in public prayer from the pulpit and ask God's blessing upon them. We announce the existence of the offering boxes each week also. So, the whole subject of offering is still in the congregation's minds without a bag or plate being passed around.

JH


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## Coram Deo (Aug 14, 2007)

With all due respect Pastor, 1 Corinthians 16 makes no mention of Corporate worship, nor a corporate act.. It only said that the collection was to be done on the first day of the week. It makes no reference to "during worship". As far as we can tell it could be done at any time on the first day of the week. Before Worship, After Worship, Mid Day, etc... And since it is never listed as a element of worship, that according to the RPW precludes it from worship. And since Matthew 6 tells us that our alms is to be done without display that also precludes it from worship. It also makes it a private worship matter. There is a big difference with a box in the back and quickly droping some your offering into it without display then passing a tray down the rows of pews for everyone can to see you put money into the plate and also your neighbors who just passed you the tray.... Trust me, I have tried dropping in the plate without display... It does not work that way with tray passing and since the trays are open people around you can pretty much see how much you just dropped in....

Just my 

Michael




Calvibaptist said:


> The real concern is that 1 Corinthians 16 makes it clear that we are to set aside as the Lord has prosper us on the first day of the week. Paul makes this command a corporate act. As a corporate act, it is no longer just a private matter, but a matter of corporate worship. Now, as to what the offering is used for, that is another discussion altogether...


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## bookslover (Aug 14, 2007)

thunaer said:


> I do believe it has been nullified in the New Testament with II Corinthians 9:6-7 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver."
> 
> A tenth is no longer required but let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity.



I think this is right. There are a couple of places in the New Testament where Paul had a golden opportunity to reinforce the tithing laws of the Old Testament; it is significant that he did not do so. Tithing belonged to the structural laws of the Israelite community, whereas freewill giving is more consistent with the much more structurally fluid picture we find in the New Testament, in my opinion.

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## Calvibaptist (Aug 14, 2007)

thunaer said:


> With all due respect Pastor, 1 Corinthians 16 makes no mention of Corporate worship, nor a corporate act.. It only said that the collection was to be done on the first day of the week. It makes no reference to "during worship". As far as we can tell it could be done at any time on the first day of the week. Before Worship, After Worship, Mid Day, etc... And since it is never listed as a element of worship, that according to the RPW precludes it from worship. And since Matthew 6 tells us that our alms is to be done without display that also precludes it from worship. It also makes it a private worship matter. There is a big difference with a box in the back and quickly droping some your offering into it without display then passing a tray down the rows of pews for everyone can to see you put money into the plate and also your neighbors who just passed you the tray.... Trust me, I have tried dropping in the plate without display... It does not work that way with tray passing and since the trays are open people around you can pretty much see how much you just dropped in....
> 
> Just my
> 
> ...



Great. Except for one thing. 

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 - Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

1 Corinthians 16 was not written to individual believers. It was written to the church that was expected to have gathered on the first day of the week. As they gathered they were to collect so that they didn't have to have a quick collection when Paul showed up on Tuesday or whatever day he showed up on. And these orders were not just for Corinth. They were for the *churches* in Galatia as well.

So, just what were these churches gathered for on the first day of the week (where they would do these collections) if not for corporate worship?

BTW, if you notice my last sentence, I hinted that another discussion that needed to be held was what this particular "collection" was used for, which would determine if it were normative or not. Since this one in chapter 16 was for a specific need, it is possible to say that here Paul is only talking about special offerings for saints in need and not the ones that are used to pay the church's staff and electric bill. But it is NOT possible to say that it didn't take place when the church gathered for corporate worship.

P.S. - I tend to agree with you on the tithing issue.


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## kvanlaan (Aug 14, 2007)

Based on the premise that the tenth has been done away with (which I think there is some evidence for), I find it interesting that many evangelicals repeatedly talk about the repealment of the ceremonial law (and some even of the moral law), but hang on slavishly to the tithing of a tenth. 

Because hey, what's the alternative? "Sell all that you have and give it to the poor." or at least selling income properties, etc. to help fund the church's ministries. That's simply too radical, so we pick and choose.


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## Ivan (Aug 14, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> Based on the premise that the tenth has been done away with (which I think there is some evidence for), I find it interesting that many evangelicals repeatedly talk about the repealment of the ceremonial law (and some even of the moral law), but hang on slavishly to the tithing of a tenth.
> 
> Because hey, what's the alternative? "Sell all that you have and give it to the poor." or at least selling income properties, etc. to help fund the church's ministries. That's simply too radical, so we pick and choose.



Interesting evaluation, Kevin, and I agree.


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## JTDyck (Aug 15, 2007)

Regarding the legitimacy of the tithe, Jesus said:



> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23:23)



Does He not commend the Pharisees for their meticulous observation of their tithe? It is certainly true that the NT principle is liberality in which the Christian says, "*Only* a tithe?" But it seems quite clear here that "these ought ye to have done".


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## fredtgreco (Aug 15, 2007)

JTDyck said:


> Regarding the legitimacy of the tithe, Jesus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent point, Pastor Dyck. I find it odd that giving is often the one area in which many Christians view the redeemed person's response to God to be less under the New covenant than the Old.


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## MW (Aug 15, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> I find it odd that giving is often the one area in which many Christians view the redeemed person's response to God to be less under the New covenant than the Old.



This is an argument that works against the defenders of the tithe, because the reality is that the Israelites gave more than one tenth. People look at the tithe, see one tenth, and conclude that is how much God requires per capita. The fact is, however, that Israel were required to pay numerous tithes. To make a proper application of this principle to the New Testament -- we should teach the Christian is bound to give his whole self to the Lord first (2 Cor. 8:5), and having devoted all one has to the Lord to give liberally as occasion presents itself. See Thomas Peck's Moral Obligation of the Tithe, Writings, 1:146-157; and John Owen's Exposition of Hebrews, 5:323-327.

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## satz (Aug 15, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > I find it odd that giving is often the one area in which many Christians view the redeemed person's response to God to be less under the New covenant than the Old.
> ...



I heard somewhere the actual percentage required was closer to 33%.


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## TexasBerean (Aug 15, 2007)

The Isrealites were required to give the tenth, and yes, some gave more, but those were special offerings or peace offerings that Christians today may still give, though in different ways. This was the case with the giving of alms as well. We may still offer God praise, or offer alms by aiding those in need. 
With respect to the place of the offering plate in worship, I voted not in the service at all because "when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." If we are to be so private about our giving, that even our other hand does not see, how much more ought we to privatise our giving from other people. How can we avoid making giving a spectacle when it is done during the called worship service in the presence of the entire congregation?


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## MW (Aug 15, 2007)

TexasBerean said:


> The Isrealites were required to give the tenth, and yes, some gave more, but those were special offerings or peace offerings that Christians today may still give, though in different ways. This was the case with the giving of alms as well. We may still offer God praise, or offer alms by aiding those in need.
> With respect to the place of the offering plate in worship, I voted not in the service at all because "when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." If we are to be so private about our giving, that even our other hand does not see, how much more ought we to privatise our giving from other people. How can we avoid making giving a spectacle when it is done during the called worship service in the presence of the entire congregation?



Not to quench a Berean spirit, but have you considered applying your logic to our Lord's prescription with relation to prayer? On the basis that you have suggested we would not be permitted to pray in public. I think rather our Lord was addressing the attitude with which our acts of worship are performed, whether in public or private. The only basis for not having an "offering" is the fact that ceremonial offerings are done away with under the New Testament. That they are not a part of the ordinary worship of God is clear from what the apostle states in 1 Cor. 16:2.


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## AV1611 (Aug 15, 2007)

Giving does indeed belong to the service of worship. You may be interested in this.


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## TexasBerean (Aug 15, 2007)

Not to quench a Berean spirit, but have you considered applying your logic to our Lord's prescription with relation to prayer? On the basis that you have suggested we would not be permitted to pray in public. I think rather our Lord was addressing the attitude with which our acts of worship are performed, whether in public or private. The only basis for not having an "offering" is the fact that ceremonial offerings are done away with under the New Testament. That they are not a part of the ordinary worship of God is clear from what the apostle states in 1 Cor. 16:2.[/QUOTE]

My logic, Sir Armorbearer, was in reference to private worship as I believe tithing to be an act thereof. Public prayer falls under the category of Public worship and I never meant for my statement to apply to both public and private prayer and praise. If I was unclear about this I apologize. The public/private distinction is the substance of this debate, because if tithing is truely an act of private worship, it has no place in the public worship service. What other ellements of the public worship service are considered private? Certainly not public prayer, the congregational singing, the reading, expounding and preaching of the word. However, when we pray privately that should be done in relative secrecy, consider Matt 6:5-6, "but when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners of the streets that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you that they have their reward. Ver 6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." I believe that tithing, and all other acts of private worship should be done with a similar privatism and my concern is that having an offering plate passed during a Public service places tithing, an act of private worship on a public pedestal. 
On a different note, I would appreciate your prayers today. I broke my leg and tore a ligament in an auto accident in May and have been forbidden to walk since. Today I have a visit with the doctor in which LW he will give me permission to walk again. He will also set a date for the second surgery at which time he will take the pin out of my ankle. The Lord has been gracious and merciful to me in all my afflictions and I would appreciate your prayers, together with mine that all may go well.


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## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

satz said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > fredtgreco said:
> ...



That probably comes from the fact that there are 3 different tithes mentioned. The Levitical Tithe, the Festival Tithe, and the Poor Tithe. But the Poor Tithe was only brought in every 3 years, I believe and I am not sure whether it was a seperate tithe or tooke the place of the Levitical Tithe on those occasions. Does anybody have any good resources on the different tithes in the OT?


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## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

I can understand why some would want to put a box in the back so that 'the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing' etc. and more power to them. But bringing tithes and offerings in absolute secrecy goes beyond what Jesus had in mind, In my humble opinion. If you read Deut 26 and other places where the bringing of tithes and offerings and firstfruits to the priests is described it is a very public affair. How can you hide your basket or your donkey that is bearing your offering? What would we do if someone wanted to actually bring the firstfruits of their almond grove today? How would we handle that? How could that be secret?

Just 'food' for thought.


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## TexasBerean (Aug 15, 2007)

The fact is, the tithe is not compleatly secret. Sure somone might see you dropping your money in the plate at the back of the church, this is incindental as I believe most of your objections are. Sure somone might see your donkey laden with firstfruits, but this cannot really be avoided, and so is acceptable. But here is where the secrecy plays in, it is our duty not to make tihes more public than is necessary. The fact is, in some churches, passing the plate is a means of using peer pressure to get more out of the flock than would have been gathered had the plate been left in a place of relative privacy. 
just food for thought


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## KMK (Aug 15, 2007)

TexasBerean said:


> The fact is, in some churches, passing the plate is a means of using peer pressure to get more out of the flock than would have been gathered had the plate been left in a place of relative privacy.
> just food for thought



That may be true but I have never seen it.

BTW, are you the son of the great Rev Todd Ruddell, church-planter extraordinaire?


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## TexasBerean (Aug 15, 2007)

Todd Ruddell is may father and my pastor. Whether he is an extrordinary church planter i know not, soli deo gloria


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## JBaldwin (Aug 15, 2007)

I couldn't agree more with those who have stated that tithe is merely a starting place. Jesus told us that in giving our right hand is not to know what our left hand is doing. This signifies an open hand and an open heart in giving. We are to give completely of ourselves, our possessions and money as the need arises. There are many who cannot give large chunks of funds to God's work but are able to volunteer numerous man hours laboring for the gospel and God's work that far exceed any money that could be paid out. That, too, is a part of giving. All that we have should be as water running through our open fingers when it comes to God's work and His people. 

Since the church is where we gather, giving boxes should be placed in the back of the church. Needs should be made known, and believers should give as the Lord leads them cheerfully. 

Another issue that is rarely mentioned in this discussion of tithing is that of keeping track of giving for tax deductions. I believe this goes completely against the attitude of giving with a whole heart and freely and cheerfully. Seems that keeping track of giving on a sheet to be turned into the IRS at the end of the year is the right hand knowing what the left hand is doing. GIving should be from a cheerful, free heart, and it should be private.


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## MW (Aug 15, 2007)

TexasBerean said:


> My logic, Sir Armorbearer, was in reference to private worship as I believe tithing to be an act thereof. Public prayer falls under the category of Public worship and I never meant for my statement to apply to both public and private prayer and praise. If I was unclear about this I apologize. The public/private distinction is the substance of this debate, because if tithing is truely an act of private worship, it has no place in the public worship service. What other ellements of the public worship service are considered private? Certainly not public prayer, the congregational singing, the reading, expounding and preaching of the word. However, when we pray privately that should be done in relative secrecy, consider Matt 6:5-6, "but when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners of the streets that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you that they have their reward. Ver 6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." I believe that tithing, and all other acts of private worship should be done with a similar privatism and my concern is that having an offering plate passed during a Public service places tithing, an act of private worship on a public pedestal.
> On a different note, I would appreciate your prayers today. I broke my leg and tore a ligament in an auto accident in May and have been forbidden to walk since. Today I have a visit with the doctor in which LW he will give me permission to walk again. He will also set a date for the second surgery at which time he will take the pin out of my ankle. The Lord has been gracious and merciful to me in all my afflictions and I would appreciate your prayers, together with mine that all may go well.



Friend, I agree the offering plate is unwarranted. It just appeared to me that you were providing an argument as to *why* the almsgiving should be private. If you are showing that our Lord's words give instruction as to the best way to manage a private act of worship, then I fully concur. But our Lord's words cannot be made the basis for keeping the action private because the same reasoning would then apply to prayer.

I rejoice with you in all the Lord's tender mercies in affliction, and pray He will guide your consultation and subsequent surgery to His glory and your good. Blessings!


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