# Does God hear prayers of Unbelievers?



## Afterthought (Oct 6, 2014)

Here's a bunch of questions.

Does God hear the prayers of unbelievers (I'll ask the question concerning those within the church who are internally unbelievers and without the church who are both externally and internally unbelievers; if there is a difference, what is it?)? So that unbelievers cannot pray for themselves but need believers to pray for them? If they cannot pray for themselves, how does this fit with them praying to God for mercy and salvation? If they can pray for themselves, how does that fit with the sacrifice of the wicked being an abomination? If there is a sense in which God does and doesn't hear their prayers, what is that sense? And why?


----------



## SeanPatrickCornell (Oct 6, 2014)

No, God does not hear the prayers of the unbeliever.

"If they cannot pray for themselves, how does this fit with them praying to God for mercy and salvation" - By the time they pray to God for mercy and salvation, they aren't unbelievers anymore.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 7, 2014)

Here's my weak attempt at trying to sound scholarly on the subject:

Prayer is a blessing and to use it as common thing is a grave sin.


----------



## Romans922 (Oct 7, 2014)

They have no mediator or advocate before the Father. They have no intercessor.


----------



## JimmyH (Oct 7, 2014)

I've asked myself this question many times. I remember hearing D.G. Barnhouse preach a sermon in the 1980s. He said if you were in unrepentant sin, let alone an unbeliever, "God will not hear you." This troubled me because in my own life experience, in some desperation in the mid 1980s, an agnostic seeking after God, I called out to Him. Wasn't very long before I was a believer. Obviously this proves absolutely nothing, but I've often wondered if He does not hear those He has elected to come to saving faith even before they actually do ?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 7, 2014)

Jimmy,
Is it possible that when you 'cried out to God', you had already abandoned your agnosticism, acknowledging him as Creator and you the creature, based on His divine decree of regenerating you at that very moment? You acknowledging Him says much....


----------



## Afterthought (Oct 7, 2014)

Interesting answers all. Keep them coming.



Scott Bushey said:


> Here's my weak attempt at trying to sound scholarly on the subject:


Thanks, although I disagree with presumptive unregeneration (if I may so speak), it is useful in other ways. (And incidentally, it's kind of neat that a handful from my old church are joining on here.)


----------



## Jack K (Oct 7, 2014)

The better question might be whether any prayer offered in unbelief is a true prayer. If prayer is "the chief exercise of faith," what are unbelievers exercising when they pray?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 7, 2014)

Afterthought said:


> Interesting answers all. Keep them coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Raymond,
Given my history on the subject of Presumptive Regeneration here on Puritanboard, and given that today is a record for posts (6) for me in the last 6 or 7 years, I wouldn't interact with your post if you paid me! Hahahahahaha


----------



## JimmyH (Oct 7, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Jimmy,
> Is it possible that when you 'cried out to God', you had already abandoned your agnosticism, acknowledging him as Creator and you the creature, based on His divine decree of regenerating you at that very moment? You acknowledging Him says much....



Thank you Scott, it was a long time ago, and I cannot say for sure, but that is an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought of before.


----------



## timmopussycat (Oct 7, 2014)

Afterthought said:


> Here's a bunch of questions.
> 
> Does God hear the prayers of unbelievers (I'll ask the question concerning those within the church who are internally unbelievers and without the church who are both externally and internally unbelievers; if there is a difference, what is it?)? So that unbelievers cannot pray for themselves but need believers to pray for them? If they cannot pray for themselves, how does this fit with them praying to God for mercy and salvation? If they can pray for themselves, how does that fit with the sacrifice of the wicked being an abomination? If there is a sense in which God does and doesn't hear their prayers, what is that sense? And why?



Since God is free to have mercy on whom he will, when he will and without conditions, and 
since unregenerate men know the externals of praying, 
it is therefore hypothetically possible that an unregenerate person who has not yet come to true faith might "pray" something on the order of "God, if you are there please answer me." and God might choose to respond in mercy to that prayer, even though the pray-er is currently unregenerate.


----------



## Justified (Oct 7, 2014)

Do you teach your children to pray even when they may not currently be believers? Just asking for sake of discussion. I'm not saying that you shouldn't.


----------



## earl40 (Oct 7, 2014)

timmopussycat said:


> Since God is free to have mercy on whom he will, when he will and without conditions, and
> since unregenerate men know the externals of praying,
> it is therefore hypothetically possible that an unregenerate person who has not yet come to true faith might "pray" something on the order of "God, if you are there please answer me." and God might choose to respond in mercy to that prayer, even though the pray-er is currently unregenerate.



Though the OP prefaced his questions with the qualifications of of prayer unto salvation I think your point that a prayer may be rendered unto God for "salvation" from a temporal difficult situation which all men experience in time. I would not limit that The God of our salvation may indeed render a positive answer to the prayer of a reprobate based on a general love of said man which would be based on the image of the Lord which still resides in every human being, and I would not limit this to only those who may be "currently unregenerate".


----------



## MW (Oct 7, 2014)

The Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 21, section 3, answers these questions.

As for duty, prayer is required by God of all men. The neglect of it is sinful and more displeasing to God (compare WCF 16.7).

As for acceptance, it is necessary to have faith in the Son, the help of the Spirit, and be according to the will of God.

Prayer is also a means of grace, as the Catechisms teach. In the very use of this means God may open the heart and give true faith. In Ezekiel the gift of regeneration is accompanied with the promise that God will be enquired of for it. If one does not believe, he should pray that God would grant faith; and if one has lingering unbelief mixed with faith he should pray that God would help him.


----------



## Justified (Oct 7, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> The Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 21, section 3, answers these questions.
> 
> As for duty, prayer is required by God of all men. The neglect of it is sinful and more displeasing to God (compare WCF 16.7).
> 
> ...


I think I agree with Mr. Winzer's input here.


----------



## whirlingmerc (Oct 8, 2014)

God said favorable things about Cornelius prayers before he was a believer. Seems in some sens God looked favorably on Cornelius alms and prayers

Acts 10:30-32 English Standard Version (ESV)

30 And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,[a] and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’

Seems in this case God sent a messenger about both Cornelius alms and prayers being remmemberd before god. Perhaps its part of the drawing by grace before being saved


----------



## whirlingmerc (Oct 8, 2014)

On the other hand, Ezekiel 8:18
Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.”

... though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.....

seems the patience of God was used up for this group who were heavily into idols


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 8, 2014)

There is a great difference in teaching one's child by example and encouraging them by giving them a false sense of security; my paper (above) addresses this issue.


----------



## brendanchatt (Oct 8, 2014)

I remember reading something related to this in _The Institutes_

Book III, Chapter 20, Section 15.



> 15. Here, by way of objection, several questions are raised. Scripture relates that God sometimes complied with certain prayers which had been dictated by minds not duly calmed or regulated. It is true, that the cause for which Jotham imprecated on the inhabitants of Shechem the disaster which afterwards befell them was well founded; but still he was inflamed with anger and revenge (Judges 9:20); and hence God, by complying with the execration, seems to approve of passionate impulses. Similar fervor also seized Samson, when he prayed, “Strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes,” (Judges 16:28). For although there was some mixture of good zeal, yet his ruling feeling was a fervid, and therefore vicious longing for vengeance. God assents, and hence apparently it might be inferred that prayers are effectual, though not framed in conformity to the rule of the word. But I answer, first, that a perpetual law is not abrogated by singular examples; and, secondly, that special suggestions have sometimes been made to a few individuals,
> 2162
> whose case thus becomes different from that of the generality of men. For we should attend to the answer which our Saviour gave to his disciples when they inconsiderately wished to imitate the example of Elias, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of,” (Luke 9:55). We must, however, go farther and say, that the wishes to which God assents are not always pleasing to him; but he assents, because it is necessary, by way of example, to give clear evidence of the doctrine of Scripture—viz. that he assists the miserable, and hears the groans of those who unjustly afflicted implore his aid: and, accordingly, he executes his judgments when the complaints of the needy, though in themselves unworthy of attention, ascend to him. For how often, in inflicting punishment on the ungodly for cruelty, rapine, violence, lust, and other crimes, in curbing audacity and fury, and also in overthrowing tyrannical power, has he declared that he gives assistance to those who are unworthily oppressed though they by addressing an unknown deity only beat the air? There is one psalm which clearly teaches that prayers are not without effect, though they do not penetrate to heaven by faith (Ps. 107:6, 13, 19). For it enumerates the prayers which, by natural instinct, necessity extorts from unbelievers not less than from believers, and to which it shows by the event, that God is, notwithstanding, propitious. Is it to testify by such readiness to hear that their prayers are agreeable to him? Nay; it is, first, to magnify or display his mercy by the circumstance, that even the wishes of unbelievers are not denied; and, secondly, to stimulate his true worshippers to more urgent prayer, when they see that sometimes even the wailings of the ungodly are not without avail. This, however, is no reason why believers should deviate from the law divinely imposed upon them, or envy unbelievers, as if they gained much in obtaining what they wished. We have observed (chap. 3, sec. 25), that in this way God yielded to the feigned repentance of Ahab, that he might show how ready he is to listen to his elect when, with true contrition, they seek his favour. Accordingly, he upbraids the Jews, that shortly after experiencing his readiness to listen to their prayers, they returned to their own perverse inclinations. It is also plain from the Book of Judges that, whenever they wept, though their tears were deceitful, they were delivered from the hands of their enemies. Therefore, as God sends his sun indiscriminately on the evil and on the good, so he despises not the tears of those who have a good cause, and whose sorrows are deserving of relief. Meanwhile, though he hears them, it has no more to do with salvation than the supply of food which he gives to other despisers of his goodness. There seems to be a more difficult question concerning Abraham and Samuel, the one of whom, without any instruction from the word of God, prayed in behalf of the people of Sodom, and the other, contrary to an express prohibition, prayed in behalf of Saul (Gen. 18:23; 1 Sam. 15:11). Similar is the case of Jeremiah, who prayed that the city might not be destroyed (Jer. 32:16). It is true their prayers
> 2163
> were refused, but it seems harsh to affirm that they prayed without faith. Modest readers will, I hope, be satisfied with this solution—viz. that leaning to the general principle on which God enjoins us to be merciful even to the unworthy, they were not altogether devoid of faith, though in this particular instance their wish was disappointed. Augustine shrewdly remarks, “How do the saints pray in faith when they ask from God contrary to what he has decreed? Namely, because they pray according to his will, not his hidden and immutable will, but that which he suggests to them, that he may hear them in another manner; as he wisely distinguishes,” (August. de Civit. Dei, Lib. 22 c. 2). This is truly said: for, in his incomprehensible counsel, he so regulates events, that the prayers of the saints, though involving a mixture of faith and error, are not in vain. And yet this no more sanctions imitation than it excuses the saints themselves, who I deny not exceeded due bounds. Wherefore, whenever no certain promise exists, our request to God must have a condition annexed to it. Here we may refer to the prayer of David, “Awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded,” (Ps. 7:6); for he reminds us that he had received special instruction to pray for a temporal blessing.470


(Copy/pasted from ccel so there will be some random numbers in there, which correspond to references or somethings on their site)
Wanted to leave the portion in at least the context of the section, so hopefully you will find the area I'm talking about.

I'm neither approving nor disapproving (without time to check the references and think through it), just throwing this up as relevant.

I remember being reasonably encouraged by it when I read it, but don't remember if checked the references, and so forth, this being some time ago


----------



## lynnie (Oct 8, 2014)

what about psalm 65:2?

O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
- King James Version (1611)

O You who hear prayer, To You all men come.
- New American Standard Version (1995)

I was reading the other day about the woman who wanted the demon cast out of her daughter, and she was technically not of the covenant people, but she knew that even the dogs eat the crumbs under the table. She of course did have some faith in Jesus. But at first the Lord said no, it was not fit to answer as she was not one of God's children to receive the children's bread. I have had non Christians in a crisis ask me to pray for them, and I did, and God answered and granted the request, and you can tell that there is an impact, even if they do not yet appear to be born again. They recognize God in some fashion even if they won't surrender to Jesus Christ, yet, and they are grateful for the prayer and the answer. I would never tell somebody unsaved that I won't pray for them, I do, and I also talk about the gospel. You wonder how many people who came to Jesus asking for some healing miracle were truly elect, yet he healed all who came to him.


----------



## Afterthought (Oct 10, 2014)

Thanks for the good comments all. The Westminster Confession proves useful again with its distinction between "acceptance" in prayer and "duty" to prayer. The unbeliever would not be accepted in prayer, but, as Calvin notes, God may be pleased to answer it for other reasons. And of course, prayer as a means of grace is also important. Although if the unbeliever is not accepted in prayer but prays for faith as a means of grace, does God's hearing of this prayer and granting true faith show God did accept the person, or would this be the case of God being pleased to answer for other reasons?


----------



## Matthew1344 (Oct 10, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Presumptive Regeneration


 What is this?


----------



## Afterthought (Oct 10, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> What is this?


Presumptive regeneration is the belief that the children of believers should be presumed to be regenerate unless the child proves otherwise. This "presumption" or "assumption" is not merely theoretical but goes so far as to affect a person's actions and attitudes toward children of believers e.g., sometimes it is used to justify paedobaptism (but it isn't always used in that manner). Basically, the children of believers need to be treated in some manner, and this (the assumption or presumption that they are regenerate unless the children prove otherwise) is what some people believe about how these children should be treated.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Oct 10, 2014)

thanks for the info on that


----------



## Sovereign Grace (Oct 26, 2014)

True prayer involves the usage of the name of Jesus..."in the name of Jesus, amen". How can sinners ask in Jesus' name, whilst living in rebellion towards Him?


----------



## covenantergirl23 (Nov 3, 2014)

I would also wonder if, an unbelievers prayer, can be regarded a true prayer at all? If they have no relationship with the Christ as mediator or the Father.


----------



## SeanPatrickCornell (Nov 3, 2014)

covenantergirl23 said:


> I would also wonder if, an unbelievers prayer, can be regarded a true prayer at all? If they have no relationship with the Christ as mediator or the Father.



I would say that the answer is "no", since in addition to your excellent point, all true prayer can only come by faith, and an unbeliever has none.


----------



## Afterthought (Nov 6, 2014)

covenantergirl23 said:


> I would also wonder if, an unbelievers prayer, can be regarded a true prayer at all? If they have no relationship with the Christ as mediator or the Father.


If I understand the application of the WCF to this question, I think the answer would be that it is true as to form and duty, but it is not true as to acceptance. That is, they can and should pray as a moral duty, but their prayer is not accepted because they are not in Christ. I think then that God can do what He wills with that prayer, but there are no promises of acceptance or of being heard that the unbeliever can rely on. This is in contrast to a believer, who can ask God for anything and be sure to receive it so far as it is for his or her own good and God's glory.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 6, 2014)

"That is, they can and should pray as a moral duty"

Hi Raymond,
Care to flesh that out a bit?


----------



## whirlingmerc (Nov 6, 2014)

I think when Martin Luther was 'almost' missed by lightning and called out to Saint Anne the patron saint of grace
I think God, in a sense 'answered' his prayer, even if there was no St Anne listening

In the case of the Momument to an unknown God Paul spoke of
a city had a plague and a monument made after appealing to 'the unknown God' stopping the plauge
I think in a sense God answered that pray

It might depend on the sense you mean. In the fullest sense only a believer can cry 'Abba Father' and have prayers powered by the prayers of Jesus interceding for them. God may be drawing a person to him. (as in the case of Cornelius) God works loving kindness and mercy on the earth and sees injustice and hears cries for help ( even heard, even if somewhat indirectly, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah ignoring the poor)

Jesus was heard because of His piety. Other people may be hear for other reasons, one reasons being for Jesus sake... 
other reasons for God's glory might include showing God's mercy or justice in a situation but not necessarily salvation

Prayer of man may be a leaning on God and God out of mercy might listen
Prayer of man may be a self justifying action and God won't listen

God can also act with no one praying and did in the case of sending Samson


----------



## MW (Nov 6, 2014)

When you come to the point of saying God hears any and every thing that is prayed in whatever way for whatever reason it is nothing more than a statement on omniscience, like saying God is everywhere or God can do all things. This moves outside the specific sense in which God is said to be the hearer of prayer, i.e., as one who accepts and answers it.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 6, 2014)

MW said:


> When you come to the point of saying God hears any and every thing that is prayed in whatever way for whatever reason it is nothing more than a statement on omniscience, like saying God is everywhere or God can do all things. This moves outside the specific sense in which God is said to be the hearer of prayer, i.e., as one who accepts and answers it.



Well said, Reverend.


----------



## Afterthought (Nov 6, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> "That is, they can and should pray as a moral duty"
> Hi Raymond,
> Care to flesh that out a bit?


What I mean by that is prayer is a duty required of all. It is thus a moral duty. Moral duties are things everyone should do, regardless of whether they are unbelievers or believers. In addition, we view moral duties as things that can be done by unbelievers, but they are not acceptable to God, since unbelievers can do no spiritual good (although they can do good as to form and the matter of the duty). Since prayer is a moral duty, I was saying it should be viewed as these other moral duties: things unbelievers can and should do, but things only believers can do in a manner acceptable to God (God is pleased to accept the good work on account of the believer being in Christ). With regards to the rest of the statement about God doing what He wills with the prayers of unbelievers, I was trying to say the same thing in my own words as the substance of the lengthy quotation of Calvin in this thread.



MW said:


> When you come to the point of saying God hears any and every thing that is prayed in whatever way for whatever reason it is nothing more than a statement on omniscience, like saying God is everywhere or God can do all things. This moves outside the specific sense in which God is said to be the hearer of prayer, i.e., as one who accepts and answers it.


How would you distinguish this from what was quoted of Calvin in this thread about God answering the prayers of unbelievers? Is it simply that God is not answering for whatever reason? When God answers the prayer of an unbeliever to save him, this is also not done without reason because God had purposed to save this person? I guess the question here would be how God could answer a prayer that He doesn't accept.



Calvin said:


> For it enumerates the prayers which, by natural instinct, necessity extorts from unbelievers not less than from believers, and to which it shows by the event, that God is, notwithstanding, propitious. Is it to testify by such readiness to hear that their prayers are agreeable to him? Nay; it is, first, to magnify or display his mercy by the circumstance, that even the wishes of unbelievers are not denied; and, secondly, to stimulate his true worshippers to more urgent prayer, when they see that sometimes even the wailings of the ungodly are not without avail.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 6, 2014)

Afterthought said:


> Scott Bushey said:
> 
> 
> > "That is, they can and should pray as a moral duty"
> ...



The distinction should be considered between God's omniscience and the things the Lord decrees. God uses even the ramblings of the reprobate to bring about His plan. It is not primary that He hears, but secondarily to the decree itself, else there are prayers that God hears that are mediated and prayers that are unmediated. It is always with the end in mind and only when it is relevant to the outcome that the Lord had decreed in the first place.

Here's an excerpt from my paper:

"Does God Hear the Prayers of the Unregenerate?

Of course. And, of course not. The difference depends on what we mean by “hear.” God hears the prayers of all people, before they even leave their lips. Here we are careful to affirm the omniscience of God, that God quite literally knows all things. Remember as well that we are promised that when we are judged we will give an account of every idle word. God’s interest in the world is not limited to the rise and fall of nations. Instead He is sovereign over, and knows all things. In fact, God ordains all things, having planned everything that would come to pass before the foundation of the world. God hears the prayers of the unregenerate, whether they believe these prayers to be addressed to the living God, or addressed to false gods the world around.

On the other hand, God does not hear the prayers of the unregenerate, if we mean by hear, “heed.” That is, God is not listening to these prayers as an attentive father listens to the concerns of his child. Remember that the unregenerate, and such were once all of us, are not disinterested persons, but are by nature the enemies of God. I tried to make this same point in my contribution to my friend Gregg Strawbridge’s book The Case for Covenant Communion. My chapter was titled “In Jesus’ Name, Amen.” There I pointed out the inconsistency many people suffer from in that they both affirm that their own children are unregenerate, and that they are free to pray to “their Father” in heaven. When we pray these words, “In Jesus’ name, amen” we are reminding God that we are well aware that were we not covered in the atoning blood of Christ, we would not be free to even enter into His presence with our prayers. To say of one’s child, “This one is not covered by the blood of Jesus” and “I will encourage this one to pray” is to invite one’s own child to face the unmediated just wrath of God the Father.

In short, God does hear the prayers of the unregenerate, but He is not all pleased to hear them. He sees them as we ought to see them, presumptuous affronts to His holiness. We should not be encouraged when those who will not confess the name of Christ are praying, thinking that this means they must be at least part way there. Instead we ought to fear for their safety. God is not impressed with such “spirituality” and is profoundly offended by it. Even the regenerate would be wise to remember that “In Jesus’ name, amen” isn’t just a polite sign off to our prayers, but is instead the very foundation of our prayers, the very door by which they might be “heard.” We would likewise be wise to remember that while God does not “hear” the prayers of the unregenerate, He does indeed hear, and delights to hear the prayers of the regenerate for the unregenerate. Pray for the lost, for their prayers will only lead them deeper into His wrath.”

~RCS

Here's something from Gurnall: http://www.semperreformanda.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Gurnall.jpg


----------



## InSlaveryToChrist (Nov 7, 2014)

"Surely God will not hear *vanity*, neither will the Almighty regard it." (Job 35:13)

"The LORD is nigh unto all them that *call upon him*, to all that call upon him *in truth*." (Psalm 145:18)

"He fulfills the desires of those who *fear him*; he hears their cry and saves them." (Psalm 145:19)

"The sacrifice of *the wicked* is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of *the upright* is his delight." (Proverbs 15:8)

"The LORD is far from *the wicked*: but he heareth the prayer of *the righteous*." (Proverbs 15:29)

"Now we know that God heareth not *sinners*: but if any man be *a worshipper of God*, and *doeth his will*, him he heareth." (John 9:31)


----------



## JimmyH (Nov 7, 2014)

John 6:44 No man can come to me, *except the Father which hath sent me draw him*: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 *But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
*
Mark 4:9 And he said unto them, *He that hath ears to hear, let him hear*


----------



## whirlingmerc (Nov 7, 2014)

When Solomon built the temple he specifically prayed for unbelievers who would pray there

1 Kings 8
"...As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, 43 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name...."

so... God hears... and may act for his own reasons ... but salvation is another story
The foreigner has heard something and acted on it somehow... but salvation? not necessarily


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 7, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> When Solomon built the temple he specifically prayed for unbelievers who would pray there
> 
> 1 Kings 8
> "...As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, 43 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name...."
> ...



"but has come from a distant land because of your name"

The fact that these foreigners came from 'distant' lands 'because of His name', says much. I don't believe that one can say that these foreigners were not believers. Foreign to the land of Israel, not foreign to the gospel.


----------



## MW (Nov 7, 2014)

Afterthought said:


> How would you distinguish this from what was quoted of Calvin in this thread about God answering the prayers of unbelievers? Is it simply that God is not answering for whatever reason? When God answers the prayer of an unbeliever to save him, this is also not done without reason because God had purposed to save this person? I guess the question here would be how God could answer a prayer that He doesn't accept.



How do we conceptualise an unbeliever offering believing prayer? It sound like a square circle.

If they do not believe, what are they praying to, and why? How can we as believers consider that to be prayer which does not contain even a mustard-seed of faith?

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is certain that God will answer the prayer of an individual, whatever he is classified as, who turns to the Lord with dependence upon and confidence in Him. But that by definition would make the person a believer of some kind.


----------



## Claudiu (Nov 8, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Jimmy,
> Is it possible that when you 'cried out to God', you had already abandoned your agnosticism, acknowledging him as Creator and you the creature, based on His divine decree of regenerating you at that very moment? You acknowledging Him says much....



I was thinking of something along the same lines.


----------



## JimmyH (Nov 8, 2014)

MW said:


> Afterthought said:
> 
> 
> > How would you distinguish this from what was quoted of Calvin in this thread about God answering the prayers of unbelievers? Is it simply that God is not answering for whatever reason? When God answers the prayer of an unbeliever to save him, this is also not done without reason because God had purposed to save this person? I guess the question here would be how God could answer a prayer that He doesn't accept.
> ...





Claudiu said:


> Scott Bushey said:
> 
> 
> > Jimmy,
> ...


If I was foreordained, elect before the foundation of the world, then at 37 years old, cried out to the Father, though as far as I knew, I was still an unbeliever, did He hear me ? Was it then that He sent the Holy Spirit to enlighten the eyes of my understanding as I read His Holy Word ? The bluegrass singing group, The Stanley Brothers, have a song called, "I Can Tell You The Time." It goes 'I can tell you the time, I can take you to the place, where the Lord saved me, on that wonderful day.' I can tell you the time, and take you to the place. I cried out to Him when I was yet an unbeliever ..... at least I think I was still an unbeliever ...... but elect before the foundation of the world.



> Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; *help thou mine unbelief*.


 These verses say to me that there is a certain ambivalence in the man's 'belief' yet the Lord hears him. I wouldn't think he would hear the heathen reprobated before the foundation of the world, but perhaps the elect, not yet believing, but being drawn to the Father, might be in a different category ?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 8, 2014)

JimmyH said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > Afterthought said:
> ...



Jimmy,
Did you read my paper? It is full of biblical truth on the subject.




> Was it then that He sent the Holy Spirit to enlighten the eyes of my understanding as I read His Holy Word ?



Possibly. However, the biblical order is that the HS enlightened you and in response, you cried out. 

Psalm 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.



> The bluegrass singing group, The Stanley Brothers, have a song called, "I Can Tell You The Time." It goes 'I can tell you the time, I can take you to the place, where the Lord saved me, on that wonderful day.' I can tell you the time, and take you to the place. I cried out to Him when I was yet an unbeliever ..... at least I think I was still an unbeliever ...... but elect before the foundation of the world.



and yet even then, an enemy...



> Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; *help thou mine unbelief*.
> These verses say to me that there is a certain ambivalence in the man's 'belief' yet the Lord hears him. I wouldn't think he would hear the heathen reprobated before the foundation of the world, but perhaps the elect, not yet believing, but being drawn to the Father, might be in a different category ?



Matt 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

I cry out this often even now....The scriptures tell us that God can make inanimate rocks cry out and we can say to a mountain move from here to there....do you believe that, really? We can all say we believe it. But how can one conceptualize this level of faith? It's not easy. I don't recall the last time I adjusted the Earth geographically. Lord, help my unbelief!


----------



## JimmyH (Nov 8, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Did you read my paper? It is full of biblical truth on the subject.


Just finished reading it. Quite a labor of love. Thanks. I agree with Piper on the teaching of children, with Edwards on the possibility that God will hear whom he will hear. There is much that I don't understand, I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. That is all I can say.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 9, 2014)

Witsius on the Penal Sanction:


----------



## TheOldCourse (Nov 9, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Witsius on the Penal Sanction:
> 
> View attachment 4063



I was just about to quote Witsius myself, who is full of gold on the subject, and you beat me to it. I will however, add another selection which, while directly dealing with semi-Pelagianism, is still appropriate to the issue as to whether bewailing ones own condition is prior to or preparation for regeneration



> IX. Hence it appears, there are no preparations antecedent to the first beginning of regeneration ; because previous to that, nothing but mere death in the highest degree is to be found in the person to be regenerated. " When we were dead in sins, he hath quickened us together with Christ," Eph. ii. 5. And indeed the scripture represents man's conversion by such similitudes as show, that all preparations are entirely excluded; some times calling it a new generation, to which certainly none can contribute any thing of himself : but yet, as natural generation presupposes some dispositions in the matter, so that we may not imagine any such thing to be in ourselves, but from God, we have this held forth by the similitude of a resurrection ; in which a body is restored from matter, prepared' by no qualifications: yet because here certainly is matter, but in the resurrection of the soul there is nothing at at all, therefore we have added the figure of a creation, Psal. ii. o. Eph. ii. 10 ; by which we are taught that a new creature exists from a spiritual nothing, which is sin : but as there was not something in nothing to assist and sustain creation ; so there was nothing to oppose and resist ; but sin is so far from submitting to what God does, that it is reluctant thereto, and in a hostile manner at enmity with him ; accordingly, the other images did not fully compleat the idea of this admirable action, till at length it is called the victory of God : victory, I say, over the devil, who maintains his palace, Luke xii 21. and effectually worketh in the children of disobedience, Eph. ii. 2. All these operations of God, which Alexander More has, in an elegant order, ranged one after another, de victoria Gratis, Diss, i Thess. io. tend to exclude, as far as possible, all preparations from the beginning .of our regeneration.
> 
> X. The Semi-pelagians therefore of Marseilles were mistaken, who insisted, that a man comes to the grace whereby we are regenerated in Christ by a natural faculty ; as by asking, seeking, knocking ; and that, in some at least, before they are born again, there is a kind of repentance going be fore, together with a sorrow for sin, and a change of the life for the better, and a beginning of faith, and an initial love of God, and a desire of grace : it is true they did not look on these endeavours to be of such importance as that it could be said, we were thereby rendered worthy of the, grace of the Holy Spirit ; as Pelagius and Julian professed : but yet they imagined, they were an occasion by which God was moved to bestow his grace ; for they said, that the mercy of God is such, that he recompences this very small beginning of good with this illustrious reward; as Vosius hist. pelag. lib. 4. p. 1. Thess* 1. has refined this their opinion. The Remonstrants are likewise mistaken, in Collatione Hagiensi, editi- onis Brandiauie, p. 302. when they write, " some work of man therefore goes before his vivification ; namely, to acknowledge and bewail his death, to will and desire deliver ance from it ; to hunger, thirst, and seek after life: all which, and a great deal besides, is required by Christ in those whom he will make alive" But there is little accuracy in the reasonings of these men. For, 1st Since our nature is become like an evil tree, after having eaten of the forbidden fruit, it' can produce no fruit truly good and acceptable to God, and do nothing by which it can prepare Itself for the grace of regeneration ; unless a person can be thought to prepare him self for grace by sin. 2dly, It has been found that they who in appearance were in the best manner disposed for regeneration, were yet at the greatest distance from it, as the instance of that young man, Mark xix-. 21, 22. very plainly shews. He appeared to be full of good intentions, and inflamed with a desire after heaven, and a blameless life before men, to a degee , that Jesus himself beholding him loved him ; but, notwithstanding all these dispositions, he parted with our Lord sorrowful. 3dly, And on the other hand, they who had not even the least appearance of any preparation, as the publicans and harlots went into the kingdom of God before those who were civilly righteous and externally religious ; " for these last believed not John, declaring the way of righteousness ; but the publicans and the harlots truly believed," Matt. xxi. 3<. 32. 4thly, and lastlv, God testifies, that in the first approach of his grace, " he is found of them that sought him not. and asked not for him," Isa. lxv. 1 . Fulgen- tius, lib. 1. de veritat proudest. p. 62. says extremely well : " We have not certainly received grace, because we are wil ling, but grace is given us while we are still unwilling.



Economy of the Covenants III.6.9-10


----------



## JimmyH (Nov 14, 2014)

In the mid 1980s I heard a tape of Donald Gray Barnhouse preaching at the Hawthorne Gospel Church. I remember him, referring to prayer, saying that some people visualize God the Father as a kindly old grandfather. Paraphrasing, it was a long time ago, DGB said,"But God is not like that, God is Righteous ! God is Holy ! If you are living in sin He will not hear you !"

I suppose I have been as one of those described in the above quote, thinking of God as a kindly old grandfather. Reading the posts by Scott , and the quoted texts of Witsius posted by Scott and Chris, I have to agree. God does not hear the prayers of unbelievers.


----------



## Afterthought (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks, all, for a productive and helpful thread!


----------

