# Blasphemous saying of Wolfgang Herman; who was he and where did he say that?



## NaphtaliPress (Feb 25, 2011)

For those who have the tools and the time for an historical puzzle. I'm trying to figure out who this Wolfgang Herman is that Johannes Brenz refers to below. This has to do with the notorious saying that without the church the scriptures have no more authority than Aesop's fables. I'm having a tough time tracking this with so little of the information in English (French, Latin probably German). The below comes from Johannes Brenz, _In Apologiam Confessionis Wirtenbergensis_ (1555; 1590 ed. is at Classic Protestant Texts if you have access). It is hard to tell quotations and commentary but I think I have them tagged right; the Sotus is Pedro de Soto. I inferred that Wolfgang Herman was noted in some preface to some work of do Soto's but I'm not sure after a lot of hunting. A french work gives the literature on the charge which I will post later; but it says Brenz adduces the quotation and it seems he simply says everyone knows about it. But I haven't found any written source prior to Brenz. 

Sed absolvamus tandem hunc catalogum, si priùs unum adhuc & alterum testimonium Soti adiecerimus, ut intelligamus, quanti momenti habeatur apud Asoticos sacra Scriptura. 

_Imò verò,_ inquit Sotus, _illud etiam constitit, tantò verbum Dei digniùs à Deo tradi, quantò remotiùs AB OMNI SCRIPTURA, imò etiam AB OMNI VOCALI VERBO, quando scilicet sola divina revelatione sine ulla imagine & phantasmate ab eo infunditur cordibus. _

Et cùm in epistola nuncupatoria recitassem dictum Wolffgangi cuiusdam Hermanni, quod publicè extat, de scriptura collata cum fabulis Aesopi, si destituatur autoritate ecclesiae, ibi Sotus, homo scilicet modestus, non gaudet tali comparatione, sed interea non improbat sententiam. Sic enim scribit:Citat (Brentius) dixisse quendam, Scripturam, si destituatur autoritate ecclesiae, valere sicut fabulas Aesopi. Hoc nos non diximus, nec certè gaudemus simili comparatione. Quamvis si Catholicus aliquis hoc asservit, ad id fortè referri voluit, quod Augustinus contra Epistolam Fundamenti dixit: Si de autotitate ecclesiae in ciperem dubitare, vel illi in aliqua re non credere, multò magis tune de autoritate scripturae dubitarem, &c. Et mox addit Asotus. Dicamus igitur modestiùs, sine autoritate ecclesiae Scriptura sacra non habet autoritatem, hoc certissimè fatemur.​Hactenus verba Soti. Vides ergo Sotum non improbare sententiam impii illius dicti de fabulis Aesopi, sed solummodò non delectari hoc genere sermonis. 

Rough mostly not particularly helpful Google translation:

But at last this a catalog to be absolved, if the first one until now and the testimony of the other companion was added to it, that we may understand, how important should be Asoticos with Sacred Scripture.
_
Indeed, _Yes, Sotus, _take that also to he stood, so much more worthy of the word of God from God, to be delivered to, How much farther removed from the All Scripture, AB, yea, in too of all, in vocal words, namely, when only the divinerevelation, without any use of the imagination and the image of him is poured into_ _our hearts._

And when, being in the Epistle Dedicatory read the Wolffgangi has been said of a certain Hermann, which the public is extant, compared with the scripture out of the fables of Aesop, if deprived of authority of the Church, where he says Sotus, a modest man, namely, does not delight in such a comparison, but in the meantime does not disapprove the sentence. He writes as thus:He summons the (Brent) to have said of a particular man the scripture, that if he is deprived of authority of the Church, health, even as the fables of Aesop. This is what we did not maintain, nor a certain we are delighted with a similar point of comparison. Although if this PRESERVE catholics hold someone, perhaps a few to be referred to that he wished that Augustine against the Letter of the Foundation said: "If out of the of the church in autotitate ciperem to doubt, or that in some thing not to believe, much more then I doubted but about the authority of Scripture, & c. And later, after he adds profligate. Let us say, therefore, a more moderate one, without authority of the Church does not have the holy Scripture the authority of, this most certainly confesse.​So much for the words of the companion. You see, therefore Sotum does not disapprove the opinion of these have been said of the wicked out of the fables of Aesop, but only not to take pleasure in this kind of discourse.


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## Phil D. (Feb 25, 2011)

Chris,

I think the Wolfgang Hermann you're talking about maybe a.k.a. Hermann Kyriander.

If so, he was apparently a cohort of the Counter-Reformationist Albert V, Duke of Bavaria

His most famous work was _Persequutiones Ecclesiae _(Ingolstadii: 1541)

Here is a another work by him in German: _Beider Kirchen_

This appears to be a reference to the quotation that seems to give some sort of source 









Chris, I think I may have found some real good info here.

In his _Responsio ad Apologiam Cardinalis Bellarmini_, Lancelot Andrews attributes the saying about Scripture/Aesop's Fables to the Polish Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius (via a citation from Brenz), who was a prominent figure at Trent. It gives some real good references for all of the sources involved too.


Latest twist: This source says Hosius wasn't the originator of this saying. (See pages 96, 273, 276)

Sorry, that's all the time I'll likely have for this treasure hunt this weekend! Hope it was at least of some help.


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## Zimon (Feb 25, 2011)

I tried to translate the first little text Phil linked to. Its written in some very old German straight from the medieval times, but I tried my best  
(Google translator would be no help, I guess, due to the different orthography)...

The original text:
_"Hermann: Wolfgang H., auch Kyriander genannt, aus Oettingen im Ries gebürtig, † um 1560, wanderte, nachdem in seiner Heimath die Reformation war eingeführt worden, mit Weib und Kind nach München aus. Hier stand er allem Anscheine nach in Diensten Herzog Albrechts V., dem er auch seine bedeutendste Arbeit: „Persequutiones Ecclesiae“, Ingostadii 1541, widmete. Mit dem Abte Maurus II. von Ettal und dem Mönche Wolfg. Sedelius von Tegernsee verband ihn nähere Freundschaft. Außer mehreren polemischen Abhandlungen verfaßte er auch geistliche Gedichte, von denen folgende bekannt sind: „Fruntliche Ermanung wider jetzt schwebende vfrürische Leeren vnd jrrthungen. Im Reutters thon gedicht“. München, Andre Schobsser. „In Passionem Domini Prosa Rythmica. Der Passion vnd Leiden unsers Herren Jesu Christi. In Reimenweiß gestellt", 1552. Augsburg, Phil. Ulhardt. „Vom opffer der Heiligen drey Khünig … Tragödy weiß gestellt“. Salzburg 1557. "_

My translation:
Hermann: Wolfgang H, also called Kyriander, was born in Oettingen am Ries and died about 1560, he left his home with his wife and children after the reformation was introduced there, he then emigrated to Munich. There, he probably served duke Albrecht V whom he also devoted his most significant and famous work " Persequutiones Ecclesiae" (written in Ingolstadt in 1541) to. He was bounded by a very close friendship to the abbot Maurus II and the monk Wolfgang Sedelius from the Tegern lake. Beside many polemic treatises he also wrote religious poems, the following are still known: "Friendly admonition against the expanding, tempting teachings and mistakes. A poem." (Munich, Andre Schobsser), "In Passionem Domini Prosa Rythmica. The Passion and the Suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ. Written in Rhymes" (1552, Augsburg, Philipp Ulhardt) and "Of the sacrifice of the three holy kings. A tragedy" (Salzburg 1557)

@Phil: Could you post the following few lines as well? There might be futher information under which circumstances Hermans book was first published and what it is about. The last few word read "In this [book] published in 1552 without a place given, ..." 
Maybe there is some interesting information left


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## Phil D. (Feb 25, 2011)

Zimon said:


> Phil: Could you post the following few lines as well?



Sorry, that's all the snippet view I could get from Google Books. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the cross emblem in the bio means that Hermann _DIED_ in 1560. This is confirmed by the publication dates given for his works.


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## Zimon (Feb 25, 2011)

Ahh of course you are right, what a stupid mistake... that happens when you are still up when it's time for bed  I corrected it..


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 25, 2011)

*Thanks very much* Phil, and Simon. That looks like the guy; now I just need to find where he wrote it; and Google cut that bit off. I note used copies that book are over $100 US. gulp.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 25, 2011)

Phil D. said:


> Chris, I think I may have found some real good info here. In his Responsio ad Apologiam Cardinalis Bellarmini, Lancelot Andrews attributes the saying about Scripture/Aesop's Fables to the Polish Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius (via a citation from Brenz), who was a prominent figure at Trent. It gives some real good references for all of the sources involved too. Latest twist: This source says Hosius wasn't the originator of this saying. (See pages 96, 273, 276) Sorry, that's all the time I'll likely have for this treasure hunt this weekend! Hope it was at least of some help.



Right; Brenz adduces the statement from Wolfgang but without attribution. I have not found anyone that sources it back to a publication.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 26, 2011)

Any ideas what the "Prot. Andreas" is which seems to have folio references to it? I did find another entry that expanded this to "Protokoll Andreas".


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## Phil D. (Feb 26, 2011)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Any ideas what the "Prot. Andreas" is which seems to have folio references to it? I did find another entry that expanded this to "Protokoll Andreas".



Chris, might it be a reference to PROTESTANT Lancelot ANDREWS apologetic treatment of the quotation in the link I gave in post #2?


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 26, 2011)

Below is what I found as far as spelling it out. My buddy Wayne may be able to get the copy of the text for me and maybe I can run it down better.
View attachment 2032


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 18, 2016)

Yeah; I know. 5 and a half years later I revisited this (and this page routinely was number one in all my Googling) and tracked it down over the last two days before finding out I had already done half the work back then, just hadn't followed through. Thanks for these leads and to Wayne, Phil and Simon for the help those years ago. Here is the note I came up with.
[Wolfgang Hermann (also Kyriander). “One Wolfgangus Hermannus said, “that the Scriptures being destitute of the testimony of the Church, have no more authority than Æsop’s Fables:” which words Cardinal Hosius, writing against Brentius, avers as containing a true and sound doctrine….” Edmund Gibson, _Supplement to Gibson’s A Preservative Against Popery: Being Important Treatises on the Romish Controversy,_ vol. 8 (London: British Society for Promoting the Religious Principles of the Reformation, 1850) 31. “Quando autoritas ecclesiae scripturam deserit, valebit quantum Aesopi fabulae; est enim ecclesia suprema magistra, quae inter scripturas diiundicandi habet potestatem, nempe quia spiritu sancto regitur et Christus cum ea manet usque ad consumationem saculi.” Wolfgang Hermann, _Quod Evangelium non in litera verum in spiritu & virtute consistat collatio_ (n.p., no pag., 1552), Bv. This was quite the scandalous statement and involved Johannes Brenz in some controversy with Pedro de Soto and Stanislaus Hosius for attributing (if perhaps sarcastically) the same to de Soto. See the note in Pierre Bayle’s _A general dictionary, historical and critical_ (1788), 6.252. See also Brenz,_ Operum,_ vol. 8 (Tubingæ: Gruppenbachius, 1590), 199, 729; de Soto, _Assertio catholica fidei circa articulos confessionis _(1557), 173; Hosius, _Confutatio prolegomenon brentii_ (1560), 126. Hermann’s words came up in the 1557 Diet at Worms, which Brenz attended. Friedrich Förner, _Historia hactenus sepulta, Colloqvii Vvormatiensis_ (1624), 43; _Benno von Bundschuh, Das Wormser Religionsgespräch von 1557: unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der kaiserlichen Religionspolitik_ (Münster : Aschendorff, c1988), 445–446, n53. Hermann was a Catholic pamphleteer and Dramatist. See the brief entry in _Killy Literaturlexikon: Autoren und Werke des deutschsprachigen Kulturraums_ (Berlin; New York: Walter de Gruyter, 2010), 7.154–155.] The entry does not mention what history remembers Hermann for.


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## Wayne (Aug 18, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Below is what I found as far as spelling it out. My buddy Wayne may be able to get the copy of the text for me and maybe I can run it down better.
> View attachment 2032



Who you talking about? What "buddy Wayne"????


. . . and which text exactly are we talking about? Sorry, I'm not following closely.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 18, 2016)

It was a long time ago; it had to do with Protokoll Andreas or something like that. But I found the Hermann work online and then traced the other sources.


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