# Strategies for Finding A Doctrinally Sound Church



## Puritanhead (Jul 22, 2006)

Getting beyond the shibolleth over one's baptismal doctrinal preference, and church polity views, *What are some good strategies for locating and finding a good Bible preaching church when we relocate or move?*

*What are some reasonable means of interacting with pastors and elders and inquiring about church teaching to get an impression? What are some good questions to ask? What are some things we should examine, and be inquisitive about, during our first few visits?*

These are some loose guidelines, as I am looking for strong affirmation of these fundamentals:
Covenant Theology
Doctrines of Grace
Historic Baptist
[/list=A] Sometimes, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. 

I am going to be confessional about what I believe. I expect churches to be so as well. I have had a communication problem over doctrinal affirmations in the past, but it is because people in some churches insist on reducing things to soundbites, cliches or beguiling abstractions that mean 100 different things to different people, and tell me nothing. 

Merely saying that "We're Reformed" doesn't tell me enough about a church by the way. For example, I have even heard dispensationalists say they are "Calvinists" and then I get to an examination of what they believe, and they are only 4-point Calvinists and beholden to the Amraldyian soteriological scheme. Likewise, I have heard dispensationalists say they "preach sovereign grace." 

Anyhow, I dislike the jumping from church to church, but confess when I was in college towns, it's about the only way to get a _feel_ for the various churches. I frankly don't like people scolding me doing this, because I know no other way to get a feel for a church than to visit on several occassions, and study their doctrinal packets if any are available and be inquisitive with elders and ministers. Sometimes, I unintentionally got involved in more than one church in doing this, as I participated in extracuricular activities and came to different services. 

In the future, I frankly will be more apt to put my foot down with decisiveness, and not be moved by pressure to _stick around_ when I don't feel right with church teaching, practice, or the community. I have found some churches apply pressure to get you to come back, and it becomes an issue of me having the gumption to say, "No, I found another church."

Anyhow, I figure that if I get settled down somehow, my intention might change about moving back to Virginia or even in the vicinity of my hometown, and hence I might migrate my church membership.

I would hope to find a congregational church, that has a decent church polity and organization and doesn't have its church constitution written in pencil (well figuratively speaking.) Notwithstanding my dislike of sterile formalism, I recognize that organization and structure are important. Ministers too, need support structures.

*Some rules of thumb I have learned*
*Lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from the Southern Baptist Convention, and its affiliated churches.*

[Edited on 7-22-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## jaybird0827 (Jul 22, 2006)

In our case, the decision to move was based on where the sound church is.

Are you about to relocate? -- _J. Sulzmann_


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## Puritanhead (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> In our case, the decision to move was based on where the sound church is.
> 
> Are you about to relocate? -- _J. Sulzmann_



Yes, by the end of the summer, early fall. Probably, to the deep south in Alabama or Florida.


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## R. Scott Clark (Jul 22, 2006)

Ask them how seriously they take the Reformed confessions and what the evidence is for their commitment to the confessions. If they say, "Conf- wha?" that's a clue.

If they say, "oh yes, we belive the confessions, but we don't talk about them much because it puts people off...." that's a clue.

If, however, they not only profess adherence to the confessions but they also ask their children to memorize the catechism and if they hold "catechism classes" instead of "Sunday School" (just a marker, not of the essence of things) and if they hold an evening service and if they observe the RPW (in both services) and and if they hold the distinction between law and gospel, well, then you have something.

rsc


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Getting beyond the shibolleth over one's baptismal doctrinal preference, and church polity views, *What are some good strategies for locating and finding a good Bible preaching church when we relocate or move?*
> 
> *What are some reasonable means of interacting with pastors and elders and inquiring about church teaching to get an impression? What are some good questions to ask? What are some things we should examine, and be inquisitive about, during our first few visits?*
> ...





See this prayer request - 

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19809

This pastor/brother, is being delivered right now.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 22, 2006)

Well I would recommend looking here first. 

But if you must have a baptistic church, I would suggest checking the Founders site as well as FIRE. A lot of the churches on the Founders site are actually not SBC. I understand the sentiment about the SBC, but there are some better Southern Baptist churches here and there. But if you're going to keep knocking back the Sam Adams , you're right, overall it may not the place for you since even some SBC "Calvinists" (like Mohler) continue to beat the drum for teetotalism. But given the outcry at that resolution, it shows that that view is not unanimous. 

Above all, I'd stay away from any church that doesn't have a confession or at least a statement of faith, no matter how sound they appear to be initially. I got burned that way once, attending an assembly for over 2 years before learning that the pastor held some questionable (to put it as charitably as possible) views on scripture.


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## ChristopherPaul (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> Well I would recommend looking here first.



(Off topic for Chris)
I noticed the OPC search tool is not very helpful. When I put in my zip code, which is East Windsor/Hightstown - New Jersey, the result is an OPC in Ringoes NJ which is too far to travel from my area. However, I happen to know that there is a Grace OPC in Trenton which is much closer to me than Ringoes, but it does not even show up on the search results.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



I agree that it is not as helpful as some other tools for other denominations that I've seen, which will give distance, etc. If you just put in the state, all the congregations for the state will come up. On the PCA site, searching by zip code or distance is not even an option.

[Edited on 7-23-2006 by Pilgrim]


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## beej6 (Jul 23, 2006)

Ryan, try my website as well for lists anyway. I do list Reformed Baptist and Congregational churches as well (if you must go there ;-)). The CCCC particularly I'm told has many Reformed churches, but they are not *all* Reformed, so caveat emptor.

Oh, and don't worry too much about what others say about finding a good church. Especially if you are visiting several at a time (morning service, evening service, midweek prayer, etc.), I wouldn't press you to pledge your membership for at least six months. Also, if possible, try to figure out all the possible churches in the area you'll be moving to... it helps if you pick an area where there is as much choice as possible. 

[Edited on 7-23-2006 by beej6]


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## Joseph Ringling (Jul 23, 2006)

Try http://www.farese.com/


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## Pilgrim (Jul 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by beej6_
> Also, if possible, try to figure out all the possible churches in the area you'll be moving to... it helps if you pick an area where there is as much choice as possible.


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## beej6 (Jul 23, 2006)

Thanks for the ditto Chris. It was comforting to know that besides the two (!) OPC churches in the area where we moved to, there were also at least two more solid Presbyterian/Reformed churches besides that. (And even one of the PC USAs here is decent.)


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## shelly (Jul 25, 2006)

Step 1: Stay near the city within commuting distance.  

Evidently farmers aren't presbyterian or even given the chance to be
 (I come from a long line of methodists, baptists and farmers.)

If you know of Presbyterians in North Missouri, let me know!

shelly


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## shelly (Jul 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by beej6_
> (And even one of the PC USAs here is decent.)



How can you determine if a PCUSA is decent? How do you define decent? Keep in mind I'm just beginning to figure out Presbyterian stuff. I'm learning a new language here.

thanks,
shelly


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## R. Scott Clark (Jul 25, 2006)

Ask them how they relate to the Confession of 1967. Are they Barthians? (the '67 replaced the WCF officially re Scripture and a number of other issues). By Barthian I mean they regard Scripture as a witness to God's Word but not actually God's inspired, inerrant Word.

Ask them point blank: "What is the law?" and "What is the gospel?." 

A real, die-hard Barthian will say, "The gospel is the law and the law is the gospel." A real die-hard Barthian will say, "We're all reprobate in Christ and we're all (emphasis on the all) elect in Christ."

Ask them point blank: "How is the Bible the Word of God?" Is it so inerrantly? Is it so apart from my experience of it? Is it so objectively?

These sorts of questions will give you an indication of where they are.

Do not expect to find Reformed worship in the mainline, however. The "conservatives" in the mainline tend to be fundamentalist rather than "confessional" (as defined by the Westminster Standards).

Best case scenerio: congregation pastored by an evangelical Princeton grad (they are graduating some again) or by a Fuller grad. 

There are some pretty conservative PCUSA congregations in San Diego, but my experience in the lower Midwest is that they tend to be pretty liberal. It's ironic. My theory is that, being in the presbytery of Lakes and Prairies (or whatever it is now) they tend to over compensate to show that they are not fundamentalist "rubes," even though they are from the Midwest. The older established PCUSA's back home (Lincoln) are all pretty hard left, I think. There are two new plants about which I know nothing, however.

Happy hunting,

rsc



> _Originally posted by shelly_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by beej6_
> ...


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## beej6 (Jul 25, 2006)

Mind you, I had a pretty low threshold for what I considered decent. I only attended one service, and took all their reading materials - bulletins, welcome packet, etc. I didn't hear or see anything heretical, nothing I wouldn't have heard at my home (OPC) church, all male officers, etc.


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## shelly (Jul 26, 2006)

Thanks, very helpful. I'll have to figure out what the answers are first, though.

shelly


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## beej6 (Jul 26, 2006)

Oh, and for joining a church as a member, it may take months before you figure out if its a good fit. So no rush there.


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