# Ph.D Programs for Systematic Theology



## natewood3 (Mar 30, 2007)

I am going to be moving to Louisville in August to do my M.Div. at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Biblical and Theological Studies. My goal is to teach Systematic Theology at the college/seminary level. I honestly am not going to seminary to just get my degree so I can move onto my Ph.D and teach; rather, I want to get as much from each class as possible, making as good grades as possible. I want to be at the top of my graduating class and be able to pursue my Ph.D wherever I would like, God willing. My question is this: If I want to teach ST at the college and seminary level, where is the best place to pursue my Ph.D? I can say this: I do not really want to stay within Southern Baptist schools to finish my Ph.D. However, by the time I get to start on my Ph.D., I think I will be having kids, since I will be around 26 and still childless. Hence, unless something drastically changes, I won't be moving overseas to get my Ph.D or anything like that. Nevertheless, I do want to have a Ph.D. in theology from a high ranking seminary/university. Has anyone else pursued a Ph.D somewhere like Trinity or WTS or places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Chicago University, etc? What kind of requirements must be fulfilled to get into a Ph.D program such as Harvard or Chicago University or Duke as compared to WTS or Trinity?

Any help would be appreciated...


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## New wine skin (Mar 30, 2007)

I have done past research myself and found most schools require learning Greek, Hebrew, German and French. (variation permitted for area of speciality ie.. Historical theology would demand knowing Latin so you can read primary source material) 

Blessings


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## natewood3 (Mar 30, 2007)

My M.Div track requires that I take 2 Greek and Hebrew grammar classes, as well we as 2 intensives in both Greek and Hebrew. I also can use an elective in both Hebrew and Greek classes. I will probably take Advanced Greek Grammar and then take a OT history class as my other elective. Hence, I will have about 27 hrs of Greek and Hebrew. I will take Systematic 1-3, plus OT and NT theology classes. I plan to use a few electives to take a couple classes on subjects like the Doctrine of God or the Doctrine of the Work of Christ, etc. The point is I think my M.Div will prepare to do a Ph.D in theology. My question is, if I want to teach, what are the best options? How much more opportunity will I have by going to Harvard or Yale or a university rather than going to WTS or Trinity or some other seminary?


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## New wine skin (Mar 30, 2007)

If you want the secular world to take you serious then it helps to get a PhD from secular university. Regardless of where you get your PhD, If you want to teach @ Seminary after getting PhD, you must publish (I had 2 Seminary profs tell me that even w a PhD, if you want respect and a "teaching" career, you must Publish.) You may already have known that but I wanted to point it out because it plays a big part in building your "resume". It also wouldn’t hurt to write an MA thesis under your Mdiv plan if they will allow. You will need a portfolio of writing/research to get into the big name schools. 

My comments are based upon the opinion of Professors I spoke w and would the be the rule not the exception. Hope this answers some of your questions.


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## natewood3 (Mar 30, 2007)

I have considered doing a Master of Theology after my M.Div simply to write a thesis. It would only take an additional year to do a M.Th. I have also been told by a professor just to go straight on to my Ph.D and do not worry about a M.Th.

What kind of publishing are we speaking of?


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## elnwood (Mar 30, 2007)

I wouldn't think that you would want or need a secular Ph.D. to teach Systematic Theology. Systematics is not really a secular research area. I'm not even sure if most secular schools have specialties in systematics.

Offhand, the seminaries would check out for Ph.D. programs would be Westminster, Fuller, Trinity Evangelical, and schools in Britain (Cambridge, Oxford, etc.). Look up your favorite systematic professors and see where they got their doctorates.

You might also want to consider doing a Th.M. somewhere else for diversity before you apply for a Ph.D. You might want to, say, get a Th.M. in Systematic Theology and do a Ph.D. in, say, New Testament, or church history, or Christian ethics, at a secular university.


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## New wine skin (Mar 30, 2007)

Getting the ThM first would only help. PhD programs are very competitive.


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## New wine skin (Mar 30, 2007)

http://www.wheaton.edu/acad/

Another good school w PhD program


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## ADKing (Mar 30, 2007)

Another possible strategy is choosing the school based on the individual you would like to oversee your dissertation. If you can say that you have studied under a well respected scholar in a particular field that may be of assistance. Not that I am an expert on requirements to get hired at a seminary!! 

As you already know, if you choose to study at a liberal institution be _very_ careful. It would require much discernment. I am not saying that you do not have this but it is important to constantly remember. Too many scholars have been corrupted by the appeal of being "scholarly" when studying at liberal schools. Sadly we are seeing it happen again in some very prominent "reformed" schools today.


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## natewood3 (Mar 30, 2007)

If I studied at a school like Harvard or Princeton or even a university like Chicago or Duke, I would obviously be very discerning and very careful as to what I am taking in. However, I have been told that seminary dissertations do not compare to dissertions done at universities. 

Not only do I want to teach at the seminary level, but I would definitely love to write and do much scholarly research in the future. Is it possible to be a scholar on that level today and have a Ph.D from a seminary? Are guys getting teaching jobs at Southern and Trinity and Wheaton and other big seminaries and colleges doing their Ph.Ds at seminaries or universities? I have looked at the faculties of places like Harvard and Princeton: almost all of their professors have a Ph.D from a university or overseas. At SBTS, there are several with Ph.Ds overseas, but there are also those with Ph.Ds from SBTS or Trinity. I don't want to shut doors on myself by having a Ph.D from a seminary, although that is what I prefer. I would rather have a Ph.D from a conservative, hopefully Calvinistic, seminary. Things might change once I get to seminary and God opens and shuts doors for me and leads me in the place He desires I go. If God wants me to be the president of a seminary with my M.Div and Ph.D from the same school, then that is what will happen, because that is what happened to Mohler (not that I think I will now or ever compare to Al Mohler, nor do I see myself as the president of a seminary or college).

The Ph.D programs at the seminaries that are conservative that I would consider are: Westminster, Trinity, Wheaton, and Southern. I don't know of hardly any other Ph.D programs that are conservative, as well as having a good faculty who are writing and teaching at a scholarly level.


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## greenbaggins (Mar 30, 2007)

Ph.D. programs overseas are usually much cheaper than, say, WTS (about a tenth of the cost, easily paying for the move over there). But Adam has a great point: choose your school based on the person with whom you want to study. If you want to do historical theology, go to Calvin Seminary and study under Richard Muller. If you want systematics, then go to Gaffin at WTS (or Lane Tipton), despite the outrageous price. It is quite a reputable Ph.D. If you want NT, then go to Oxbridge, Durham, Edinburgh, or Glasgow. Same with OT. If you want apologetics, then go to WTS or WSC.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## R. Scott Clark (Mar 30, 2007)

Nate,

It depends on what you want to do.

If you want to teach, then don't get a seminary PhD. Most sem PhD programs are not sufficiently demanding for reasons I've explained before here (most programs exist as a source of revenue, and they can't afford to fail students who should be failed).

Practically, most schools don't hire candidates with seminary PhDs or those candidates have a much harder time making the "short list" and getting interviews. 

I'm reflecting here conversations with faculty members who teach in such PhD programs. 

If you think you might lose your faith by attending a "secular" university, then you shouldn't go. It's not worth it. Your vocation probably isn't academics. That's not a criticism, just an observation based on experience.

Life in a PhD program in any university is lonely, hard, depressing, and challenging. If you don't know your faith, don't go. Most people don't graduate. Writing a dissertation can be lonely, frustrating, did I say lonely? You will want to quit. It's not always (or even often) "fun." 

You may sit in seminars or lectures or have meetings with colleagues or teachers who ridicule the faith and your faith. You'll need a thick skin. It's good preparation for teaching.

If you aren't ready or able or willing to engage the academy and the highest and most challenging levels, then you're not going to do well as a teacher, because your students will challenge you every day.

It is hard to find a "Systematics" degree at State-funded universities. What most do is decide between philosophical theology and historical theology. In the former you would do your work in a Philosophy dept. In the latter in a history dept.

Some private universities, e.g., Duke and others have programs that would allow one to prepare to teach systematics. 

Blessings,

rsc


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## natewood3 (Mar 31, 2007)

Dr. Clark,

I very much appreciate your response. I do want to teach and hope write at some point. I want to teach in a seminary if possible. I have wanted to teach the Word of God since I was 16 years old, and I first believed that was mainly to be in the pastorate, but as I went through college and started seminary, I have become more and more moved to teach and write at a scholarly level rather than be a pastor (not that I will never be a pastor). I have had a college professor tell me more than once that I and one other student of his are the only students he has ever had at the small Bible college I attended that actually have the ability to pursue a Ph.D and teach. I sometimes doubt that, and even at this time, I wonder if I honestly have what it takes intellectually to compete at the Ph.D level in a university setting. I, to my shame, did not always study and write to the best of my ability in college. I did in some classes that I enjoyed, but nothing like I should have. I do NOT want to do that in seminary. I want to graduate at the top of my class, and I feel as though if I study like I should, I can do that. 

I do not fear "losing my faith" in a university setting. I debated much about doing my M.Div in apologetics at one time because I love critiquing and debating with those who have differing views than mine. So that is not a fear at all. A philosophical theology program honestly would be great to me, as I am interested in both systematic theology and philosophical thinking. I considered doing a MA in philosophy and pursuing a Ph.D in philosophy if I was going to teach apologetics. However, in the past few months, I have seemed to be more inclined to teach systematic theology rather than apologetics.

Here is a question: It is overwhelming to me to consider how many objections and issues are raised against Christianity. You say I should know my faith. It does worry me at times that I will go to a university and not have answers that I should. Even in talking to people, I sometimes fear they will ask a question that I cannot answer. However, it seems like there is SO MUCH I need to study, both theological issues as well as apologetics issues, that I do not know where to begin. If I want to teach and pursue a Ph.D at a university, how can I be sure I am grounded in the faith as I need to be? What should I be studying and reading and learning during my next 3 years at seminary? How many books should I be reading a month or a year or how much time should I be spending reading to prepare me for the kind of study and research that I want to do?


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## natewood3 (Mar 31, 2007)

Anyone done any kind of work at Wheaton? Is their Ph.D comparable to a university setting? I have read they only accept 6 students a year and that they give full scholarships to their Ph.D students as long as they are in the program....

Dr. Clark, any comments on Wheaton in comparison to other schools?


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## R. Scott Clark (Mar 31, 2007)

Nate, 

The PhD program began after I left. They have attracted a top-notch faculty for the program, the admission criteria are very strict, but Wheaton is still a small school. When I was there (10 years ago), the library was disappointing. I've been told that it has been upgraded, but I would think that for a serious PhD program the school would need to invest a great deal of money (which it possesses) in providing the facilities and resources needed for doctoral research. Maybe they've done that. I haven't been on campus for a few years.

Whatever the case at Wheaton, I agree with Mark Noll. The evangelical "mind" is scandalous. I blame pietism. Evangelicalism is essentially pietism, especially since the 18th century. The evangelical establishment has largely succeeded in chasing away whatever orthodox, confessional Protestant influences persisted after the 18th century. With the death of Old Princeton and the rejection of old Westminster by E J Carnell at (the old) Fuller, evangelicalism has given free reign to its religious subjectivism. 

Religious subjectivisim (whether conservative, liberal, or eclectic as in the case of the emerging movement) has little interest in or commitment to the life of the mind, and that's pretty much essential for scholarship.

Evangelicalism is about "doing," not "thinking." That's not to say that there aren't excellent evangelical scholars, there are, but most of our evangelical scholars didn't become such by studying _only_ in evangelical schools, even excellent schools such as Wheaton or Westminster. 

I've read several PhD dissertations from evangelical seminaries. Mostly they are sub-standard. I read one, as an external reader, a while back and, as an historical work, it was raw and unprofessional. It was definitely the last work of a student rather than the first work of a scholar. I recommended that the student work on it for another year or two. Three weeks later this candidate had his PhD! Needless to say, I was a little shocked. Sadly, this example is not an exception to the rule. That isn't to say that there aren't lots of bad PhD dissertations written at state or private universities, there are. At state/private (research) universities, however, there exist checks and balances which work against the acceptance of bad work. For one thing, there is a guild mentality that seeks to prevent amateurs from getting in if only so that they don't take up time at conferences or create problems that then have to be undone in the classroom.

ETS is an excellent example of what is wrong evangelical scholarship. The Biblical studies sections seem to be pretty strong, but the historical and systematic sections tend to be much weaker. They do apologetics and that's about it. I think that's because modern, as religious subjectivists and fundamentalists tend to live on a continuum between rationalism and irrationality. Those who tend toward subjectivism/irrationality tend to assign little value to explaining the faith carefully. Those tending toward fundamentalism/rationalism assign too much value to (sometimes autonomous) reason as a way of finding certainty. This lot can get lost in arcana such as flood geology or building creation museums and the like.

Judging by JETS and the ETS sesssions I've attended, it doesn't seem that evangelicals do history or systematics as well because they have a weak connection to the visible, institutional church and thus to the past. I sometimes think that there is a connection between the reigning evangelical/fundamentalist Christology and their view of the church and the past too, but I don't know if I could prove it satisfactorily.

I think it's beyond debate, however, that what matters in evangelicalism, what defines it, is religious experience. In the nature of the evangelical beast one can be Greek Orthodox or Fundamental Baptist and still be be evangelical because the only universal is a personal encounter with the risen Christ.

In that case, why does the past matter?

So the nature and instinctive impulses of contemporary evangelicalism work against genuine scholarship and a fair bit of what evangelicals _credit_ as scholarship (at least in my field) isn't.

rsc



natewood3 said:


> Anyone done any kind of work at Wheaton? Is their Ph.D comparable to a university setting? I have read they only accept 6 students a year and that they give full scholarships to their Ph.D students as long as they are in the program....
> 
> Dr. Clark, any comments on Wheaton in comparison to other schools?


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## R. Scott Clark (Mar 31, 2007)

Nate,

I'm not sure how to answer your question. I think you need to talk to Brian Vickers. 

As I understand apologetics, one does not have to be omnipotent to defend the faith. It's quite possible that someone might ask a question that you cannot answer. There are lots of questions I can't answer. So what?

There are questions I _can_ answer from the Scriptures, and secondarily, from history, theology, logic etc. 

Is there a question someone could ask might cause me to lose my faith? No. I think I'm reasonably familiar with most of the major questions about the faith raised since the resurrection. None of them make me want to stop trusting the risen Savior. Some of them (e.g., the problem of evil) are chastening and humbling, but none of them are defeating.

When I say, learn "the faith," I mean get to know the history of doctrine an exegesis; get to know the history of the church as an institution. 

Learn systematic theology well.

Learn the confessions of the church well.

Learn the bible in its original languages and don't be content with computer programs.

Read the best scholarship old and new. 

Don't be lazy. Do the work that you should be doing now and leave the PhD work for then. There's plenty of time for that later. Now is the time for building the foundation. Your PhD research will be highly specialized. Now is the time to get a good general, theological education.

rsc



natewood3 said:


> Dr. Clark,
> 
> ...Here is a question: It is overwhelming to me to consider how many objections and issues are raised against Christianity. You say I should know my faith. It does worry me at times that I will go to a university and not have answers that I should. Even in talking to people, I sometimes fear they will ask a question that I cannot answer. However, it seems like there is SO MUCH I need to study, both theological issues as well as apologetics issues, that I do not know where to begin. If I want to teach and pursue a Ph.D at a university, how can I be sure I am grounded in the faith as I need to be? What should I be studying and reading and learning during my next 3 years at seminary? How many books should I be reading a month or a year or how much time should I be spending reading to prepare me for the kind of study and research that I want to do?


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## natewood3 (Apr 1, 2007)

Dr. Clark,

Thank you for your responses, for at this point, I am not able to talk to seminary professors like this, so I really do appreciate your advice and responses. 

I agree that I need to get a good foundation right now. I think I am somewhat worried I will be understudied when I start my Ph.D, but I have not taken but just a few classes in seminary so far. I have 30 hrs of languages and around 21 hrs of theology classes left before I will ever start my Ph.D, plus many other classes that I believe will be foundational. 

Couple questions: You say I need to talk to Vickers. Why? I will be able to talk to him in person, since I am going to be taking Elementary Greek with him this fall, and I may be attending Clifton where he is an elder.

Secondly, do you have a resource list or bibliography of essential books that seminarians should have read by the time they get into their Ph.D program? Books that are essential for Reformed or Baptists or any other students of theology?

Lastly, if you were going to recommend someone like me, who is wanting to teach and write at a scholarly level in the area of theology or possibly historical theology, could you name 4 or 5 schools that you would recommend? I am not familiar with many university factulty when it comes to the area of theology. I am not sure what kind of beliefs or lack of beliefs I will run into in a university setting because I have not hardly read any university professors of theology or religion.

BTW, I started listening your series of messages on recovering the Reformed confessions. I have only listened to the first message, but they were very interesting and helpful. I have been guilty more than a few times of calling a person "Reformed" when I only meant "Calvinist." I look forward to listening to the rest of the messages...


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## R. Scott Clark (Apr 1, 2007)

Nate,





> Dr. Clark,
> 
> Couple questions: You say I need to talk to Vickers. Why? I will be able to talk to him in person, since I am going to be taking Elementary Greek with him this fall, and I may be attending Clifton where he is an elder.



He's someone I know whom I trust to give good advice. I don't know many other faculty there. 



> Secondly, do you have a resource list or bibliography of essential books that seminarians should have read by the time they get into their Ph.D program? Books that are essential for Reformed or Baptists or any other students of theology?



No, I'm sorry. WSC has a list of pre-sem readings that you might check out, but PhD work is far too specialized to try to create those sorts of bibliographies. 



> Lastly, if you were going to recommend someone like me, who is wanting to teach and write at a scholarly level in the area of theology or possibly historical theology, could you name 4 or 5 schools that you would recommend? I am not familiar with many university factulty when it comes to the area of theology. I am not sure what kind of beliefs or lack of beliefs I will run into in a university setting because I have not hardly read any university professors of theology or religion.



Brian may be able to answer these sorts of questions. This is one reason why you're paying tuition, to get this sort of advice.



> BTW, I started listening your series of messages on recovering the Reformed confessions. I have only listened to the first message, but they were very interesting and helpful. I have been guilty more than a few times of calling a person "Reformed" when I only meant "Calvinist." I look forward to listening to the rest of the messages...


[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the encouragement.

rsc


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## 3John2 (Apr 2, 2007)

This is one of the best & most informative posts I've seen in this section of the PB. Thanks for both the questions & the responses. Thanks for your time Dr. Clark.


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## natewood3 (Apr 7, 2007)

I agree that Dr. Clark has been very helpful to me and to others on this board. I appreciate his willingness to answer questions.

I was looking at some students who would be graduating from Princeton and Harvard with Ph.Ds in church history, NT, theology, etc. ALL of these students had already published many articles in journals. I was recently skimming through some Southern Baptist or other evangelical journals, and either Southeastern or Dallas Theological Seminary (I cannot remember exactly which one it was) had a complete journal of M.Div and Ph.D student essays. My question would be this: Is it common for top M.Div and Ph.D students to be able to publish essays in theological journals? I suspect Ph.D students may publish papers completed in seminars, but as many essays as some of these students had already publish, it makes me believe they were doing this before their Ph.D work. Someone has already mentioned the need to be published. Do these papers get recommended to be put in a journal or do students submit these?


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## R. Scott Clark (Apr 7, 2007)

There is a common temptation among grad students to try to publish early. That's probably a mistake. 

Few MDiv or MA students write material that's publication in a refereed academic journal. There are "student" journals of various sorts, sort of a minor league for publishing. 

Unless one has done some research that covers something heretofore untouched or makes some argument heretofore unknown, student papers should remain unpublished. A couple of our MA students have done theses of this sort - recently we had an MA student write a thesis based on the Latin text of P. van Mastricht's _theologia_. That could be published in some form. We've had others. Steve Baugh published an essay on Col 1 back in the mid-80s when we were students, that still holds up. I get an paper every couple of semesters that's worth publication.

That said, I'm pretty critical of a lot of stuff (including my own) that gets published. Most of it is dreck. 

The main things that students need to learn to do is to read and write well.

Be patient. Al Mawhinney used to say that no scholar should publish before he's 40. That's probably wise. 

The "publish or perish" mentality seems to grow, however.

rsc


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