# Joel Osteen; Candy or Poison??



## Sonoftheday (Jan 21, 2008)

I have several family members who think Joel Osteen is quite the man of God, a pastor who speaks the language of the people and helps them keep thier eyes on Jesus in good times and bad. I have always found Joel Osteen to deliver sermons the equivalent of candy corn, whenever I was young I found it somewhat appealing but even for candy its . A few months ago I had the oppurtinity to discuss the many reasons I despise his message after being asked what I think of him by a cousin.(Presents no gospel, a weak God concerned with this life not the next, ect.) Anyways I have found his messages to be nothing appetising to myself and very very very weak theologically, to listen to him is like eating candy corn over steak. But how concerned should I be that many of my family members like him? Concerned enough to possibly ruin a family get together by bringing it up? 

Does he only teach a message that like candy lacks nutrition and consuming too much of can cause one to be sick, Or is his message like poison to consumer? 

Basically, would Paul say "let him be anathema"??


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 21, 2008)

As the hiphopers would say, "don't hate, make money" 

Anyway Bryan you are on point. Osteen's powder puff sermons keep true Christians in a state of perpetual mediocrity and feel goodness. His sermons are nothing more than psychological counselling in the vein of encouragement. Rich folks pay $100 per hour for this, and Osteen brings it to the masses for cheap. Make no mistake, America is a savage land. There are a lot of hurting and abused people out there and Osteen taps into this market of encouragement a la Oprah and Dr. Phil, only better because he uses "Christianity".

As for your family members you need not argue, but share Christ. I was once an evangelical and R.C Sproul was on the local Evangy radio station. From R.C Sprouls teachings I was gradually able to shake off the Charismatic type fluff and grow into the reformed faith.

One easy to read book that will and should do wonders and bring the seriousness of the Gospel to your family members is, Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes by G. I Williamson. Its an easy to read book that goes over the basic elements of the Christian faith as outlined by the Westminster Confession.
Amazon.com: WILLIAMSON, WESTMINSTER


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 21, 2008)

Check out this week's WHI: The White Horse Inn: Know What You Believe & Why You Believe It


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## kvanlaan (Jan 21, 2008)

Big vote for poison, not candy (two votes if I can vote twice.) He presents a different gospel, that makes him a false prophet (actually, I don't know that he presents any gospel at all - does that just make him a pagan?)

I think Keon has the right idea. You'll never win with your family arguing point to point on Joel himself. BUT go to the gospel (keep the discussion _sola scriptura_), and they won't have much of a foot to stand on, because Joel rarely uses scripture and in _oh_ so many ways his messages depart from it completely. Try to keep from talking about Joel, they would probably see it as a personal attack and get emotional. If _they_ bring it up, however, just deal with his message in your response and how that fits (or doesn't with scripture.) If they go back to their Bible to try and refute you, it should become readily apparent to all what the man truly is.


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## Poimen (Jan 21, 2008)

Poisoned candy really. It tastes good but leaves a bitter residue. The 'candy' attracts the masses but the poison kills them.

Does Mr. Osteen call men to repentance? Faith in Christ? Salvation by grace alone? I have not listened to every sermon nor read every book but I doubt it.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 21, 2008)

POISON! 'Nuff said.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 21, 2008)

Poimen said:


> Poisoned candy really. It tastes good but leaves a bitter residue. The 'candy' attracts the masses but the poison kills them.
> 
> Does Mr. Osteen call men to repentance? Faith in Christ? Salvation by grace alone? I have not listened to every sermon nor read every book but I doubt it.



That was my take... candy-coated poison. Arsenic in a sickeningly-sweet chocolate coating. Just enough to melt in your mouth and then send you to hell once you've digested it. 

The man has NO business calling himself a Christian, or claiming his organization is a church of Jesus Christ. Like Daniel, I've not read everything he's ever written, but he's no different in what he teaches than any other New Age look-at-your-infinite-human-potential, rat-poison-for-the-soul salesman does. 

I can't imagine how awful it must be to have family members who buy his junk. I can only pray for you that you'll be able to witness truth to them and convince them of the Christ-dishonoring errors that Osteen is peddling them.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 21, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Poimen said:
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> > Poisoned candy really. It tastes good but leaves a bitter residue. The 'candy' attracts the masses but the poison kills them.
> ...





Unfortunately my dad buys into the dope hook, line and sinker.


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## kvanlaan (Jan 21, 2008)

"Candy-coated poison" - incredibly accurate.


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## skellam (Jan 21, 2008)

Recently he was the topic of discussion on the White Horse Inn, and also a recent episode of the Albert Mohler radio show: Taking the Measure of Joel Osteen

He doesn't appear to have any formal theological training and, when asked, admits that he is not a preacher but rather a "motivational speaker." If he would just call himself a motivational speaker and stop identifying his weekly gathering a "church", I don't think many would have a problem with him.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 21, 2008)

Thanks for the link.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 22, 2008)

I'd compromise by calling him poisonous candy.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 22, 2008)

skellam said:


> He doesn't appear to have any formal theological training and, when asked, admits that he is not a preacher but rather a "motivational speaker." m.



One semester of ORU.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 22, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Check out this week's WHI: The White Horse Inn: Know What You Believe & Why You Believe It



You beat me to it Bruce. Joel Osteen preaches Law but the Law he preaches is attainable simply by men. His teaching is profoundly wicked but in a sunshiny and nice way. A lost and dying world will love his message but he's a perfect example of why men and women need to know their Scriptures.

Listen to the WHI. Seriously. Write down the basic messages that Joel Osteen presents and then ask people that call themselves Christians what is wrong with them.

Most people unfortunately don't know and haven't been confronted with their utter need for the Gospel that is repudiated with a great smile in a "loving" way. It's absolutely the worst kind of poison because a truck full of sugar helps the medicine of death go down in the most delightful way.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 22, 2008)

I heard him speak briefly on BBC News once, and I did not think there was much substance to his message; but this thread is an eye-opener. Would you say that he is as much of a false prophet as someone like Benny Hinn?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 22, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I heard him speak briefly on BBC News once, and I did not think there was much substance to his message; but this thread is an eye-opener. Would you say that he is as much of a false prophet as someone like Benny Hinn?



No. Listen to the White Horse Inn program: The White Horse Inn: Know What You Believe & Why You Believe It.

I think Osteen is extremely illiterate Biblically but knows a lot about motivating people. Mike Horton said it best when asked whether he was a heretic that there's so little substance to what he says that it's kind of hard to call him one. It's not like he actually re-writes Christian doctrines because, half the time, he will deny that he's actually specifically Christian.

It's definitely a theology of glory but it isn't the hard-core Benny Hinn kind. It's more like somebody putting words to the vaccuous understanding of God that most people have:
1. We're basically good people.
2. Doing good is what it's about.
3. We need to tap into our potential.
4. We'll be rewarded if we do.
5. We mess up but you don't look back.
6. With all our faults, God loves us just the way we are.
7. Above all, we're supposed to be successful and happy.

It's basically "the American dream" baptized with a little bit of God language and holding a Bible in your hand while you're doing it.

I don't know why people continue to be shocked when Osteen says that he doesn't know if Hindus will be saved and just says that he thinks they're good people and "God looks at the heart". Of course, because Osteen thinks that all human hearts are good. I don't even know why he thinks Christ died on a Cross but it wasn't to atone for sin. Sin for Osteen is just making a mistake but we all make mistakes and God knows that. 

I actually don't think Osteen has ever given any thought to Christ's work because he's the typical American Christian that doesn't really know anything about Jesus other than the fact that they have a "deep, personal relationship with Him". What that means nobody can really describe in any doctrinal sense other than the fact that He makes people feel happy, fulfilled and gives them power and strength to get through the day. He's personal but He's not because nothing can be said of His person but simply that He makes people feel fulfilled. Osteen speaks to this vaccuous "good feeling" better than any right now.

This movement is incredibly pervasive right now in America and is being transported all over the globe by us. The guys at the WHI were relating the toast by Screwtape in _The Screwtape Letters_ where the heretics they feast upon are bland and without flavor - not like the heretics in the past. It's so insightful of Lewis and one wonders what he'd think of Osteen. Seriously, it's not like Osteen and his kind need to actually prosyletize. There's no news to tell except to keep loving yourself the way you already do except let me teach you how to love yourself even more because the God of the Universe wants you to kick that self-love into high gear.

This is profoundly nearby me because as I'm laboring to teach out here, I encounter Christians that find the above message incredibly intuitive and normative. It's scary how fast this has taken hold in places that might have had confused soteriology in the past but could be counted on to always talk about the need for Christ's Blood. Rick Warren's stuff has sort of become a "gateway drug" into this new legalism and Osteen is the hard-corps stuff. It's a law of self-performance where you are commanded to love yourself and be self-fulfilled. The only judgment, in the end, is that you didn't love yourself as much as you might have right now but at least you've got heaven to finish the job.


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## wretchedworm (Jan 25, 2008)

deadly poison.
nuff said


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## BobVigneault (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm going to be Mr. Osteen's advocate here. We need the patented "*Osteen Answer™*" available to us because it can be used in so many tough situations. The "*Osteen Answer™*" is beautiful because it can be applied to any question.


"Mr. Osteen, do you preach a message that is watered down or do you think it's poison to the hearer?"

The *Osteen Answer™*:
"Thank you for asking that. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let God be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.

Here's my thing, I can't judge somebody's heart. You know? Only God can look at somebody's heart, and so -- I don't know. To me, it's not my business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn't. I just say, here's what the Bible teaches and I'm going to put my faith in Christ. And I just think it's wrong when you go around saying, you're not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not exactly my way."

Thank Mr. Osteen for clearing that up.

(If time is an issue you may use the "*Osteen Answer Short Form™*" and just say, "*I don't know.™*"


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 25, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> I'm going to be Mr. Osteen's advocate here. We need the patented "*Osteen Answer™*" available to us because it can be used in so many tough situations. The "*Osteen Answer™*" is beautiful because it can be applied to any question.
> 
> 
> "Mr. Osteen, do you preach a message that is watered down or do you think it's poison to the hearer?"
> ...





Is this the school where Alberto Gonzales studied? And as many students do, they change a tad from their mentor. So it goes from 'I don't know' to 'I don't recall"


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## BobVigneault (Jan 25, 2008)

Um..... I don't recall.




Amazing Grace said:


> Is this the school where Alberto Gonzales studied? And as many students do, they change a tad from their mentor. So it goes from 'I don't know' to 'I don't recall"


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## GenRev1611 (Jan 25, 2008)

I like what Todd Wilken (host of Issues, Etc. a Lutheran radio broadcast) once said about Joel Osteen. He's like your kind neighbor next door. Always saying something nice and not wanting to offend. My favorite is when he says about him. "There's sometimes hardly anything he says that I don't agree with, the problem is in *what he doesn't say*."


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## Stephen (Jan 25, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I heard him speak briefly on BBC News once, and I did not think there was much substance to his message; but this thread is an eye-opener. Would you say that he is as much of a false prophet as someone like Benny Hinn?



Yes, absolutely. I think he is just as dangerous as Benny. He certainly does not preach the gospel of free grace.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 25, 2008)

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > I heard him speak briefly on BBC News once, and I did not think there was much substance to his message; but this thread is an eye-opener. Would you say that he is as much of a false prophet as someone like Benny Hinn?
> ...



That is sad; I heard R. Scott Clark say that 16,000 people go to his church.


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## Stephen (Jan 25, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
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> > Daniel Ritchie said:
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Yes, a sad commentary of where American "evangelicalism" is headed.


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## SRoper (Jan 25, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> That is sad; I heard R. Scott Clark say that 16,000 people go to his church.



Try 47,000.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 25, 2008)

I agree with the folks on the White Horse Inn program regarding Osteen as a case study in Christless, Crossless Christianity. That he avoids mentioning the Bible and Christ because he wants to appeal to his "broader" audience scares me to death. When you listen to his ignorant answers on media programs, you almost want to feel sorry for him. You almost want to agree with Lutheran Rod Rosenblatt that he is too devoid of content to even merit the term heretical. However, when you look at how many people are sucking up his books, I am grateful for Horton and others taking him on in this way.

Stephen's comment, "Yes, a sad commentary of where American "evangelicalism" is headed," comports well with arguments I have been making in some other threads.

Has any major apologetics ministry gone in print with a full-scale analysis of Osteen yet?


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## BobVigneault (Jan 25, 2008)

Well, there's the highly acclaimed, ever vigilant, international, often copied but never equaled Puritan Board. 



DMcFadden said:


> Has any major apologetics ministry gone in print with a full-scale analysis of Osteen yet?


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## DMcFadden (Jan 25, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Well, there's the highly acclaimed, ever vigilant, international, often copied but never equaled Puritan Board.
> 
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> ...


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 25, 2008)

SRoper said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> 
> > That is sad; I heard R. Scott Clark say that 16,000 people go to his church.
> ...



 How terrible that good men - preaching the pure gospel - are working in congregations that are struggling to keep alive, while someone preaching this rubbish gets such crowds.


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## GenRev1611 (Jan 25, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> SRoper said:
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> > Daniel Ritchie said:
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*Welcome to America*


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