# Abu Ghraib prison pictures



## blhowes (May 10, 2004)

This morning I took a look at the pictures of some of the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison for the first time. I don't shock very easily, but this was shocking! How could they do this? I mean, How could they do this??? Have any of you seen these pictures? I'm so embarrassed for my country!
:flaming:


----------



## matt01 (May 10, 2004)

We can only hope and pray that there will be a stiff and full punishment for all of those involved. 

My wife and I saw only a few of the pictures. We were shocked that those who claim to stand for democracy and freedom, would put other human beings on a dog chain, or have them stand naked with only their faces covered. Shame on us. Shame on the leadership, and shame on those troops.

The Iraqi soldiers are no different that the U.S. troops, except for this: when a U.S. soldier refuses to fight they are said to stand for what they believe. When an Iraqi refuses to fight, they are given a bullet in the back of the head.

We should never treat fellow soldiers in this manner.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (May 10, 2004)

*I want to weep, and I believe we have not seen the worst*

This may, in the end, bring the present administration down. Which does not surprise me. I take ZERO pleasure in so saying. We have, collectively, covenantally, sown the wind. The collossal error/ miscalculation/ sin which was this operation from its inception (and so I have consistently said, though not here--I have very little to retract in this regard) was bound to bring a whirlwind of consequenses. The breeze is only just starting to blow, I greatly fear.
My sole comfort is this: that the kingdom of righteousness is still being advanced at the expense of all its enemies and detractors by the King and Head of the church. Even when we cannot see with our earthly eyes, we walk by faith, and not by sight.


----------



## blhowes (May 10, 2004)

I haven't followed the story at all, so I have a little catching up to do now. Did Donald Rumsfeld testify that he knew what was going on (and did nothing), but didn't tell the president?


----------



## fredtgreco (May 10, 2004)

Is any one else amazed that these pictures are shown constantly, but not the dismembered burned bodies of non-combatants who were [b:f52a5875cc]murdered[/b:f52a5875cc] not [b:f52a5875cc]embarassed[/b:f52a5875cc]?

People are people. They sin. They are totally depraved outside Christ. What you should be amazed at is that our soldiers, with complete power and ability do not do what almost every other nation does with prisoners (including to ours): rape, torture, kill, maim. This war is a testimony to common grace and the 1st use of the Law.


----------



## blhowes (May 10, 2004)

[b:44a1a9f590]Fred wrote:[/b:44a1a9f590]
Is any one else amazed that these pictures are shown constantly, but not the dismembered burned bodies of non-combatants who were murdered not embarassed? 

I am. Maybe its me, but the incident with the non-combatants seemed to be swept under the rug. 

I'm glad that I'm not president now. My knee-jurk reaction would have been to bring all the troops back and &quot;finish the job&quot; with those bozos. 

[b:44a1a9f590]Fred wrote:[/b:44a1a9f590]
People are people. They sin. They are totally depraved outside Christ. 

Sure, but that doesn't excuse their conduct or take away the punishment that they deserve.

Bob


----------



## a (May 10, 2004)

maybe i'm a bad person (well, yeah i am) for having this opinion... BUT,

i don't find them quite as shocking and terrible as others make them out to be...


it's war... and we need information... it's not like we were torturing them... more like embarrassing them and breaking their spirits - or should i say, encouraging them to give us information... information that will (and has) save lives...

frankly, i've seen much worse in college in fraternity hazing...

it's war...


i just wish our troops would be given the chance to stop pulling punches - like in fallujah - and let these guys see how quickly, easily, and decisively we could actually put this insurgency to an end...


BOOM!

[Edited on 5-10-2004 by ace]


----------



## blhowes (May 10, 2004)

[b:57d7aa461a]Josh wrote:[/b:57d7aa461a]
...but what's more shocking is the fact that those in other countries who have burned/decapitated/dismembered our Soldiers and paraded them through the streets have been portrayed by our very own media as &quot;freedom fighters&quot; and victims! 



Unfortunately (or fortunately) I wasn't shocked by the news media's portrayal since, for quite a while, I've stopped listening to the propaganda (I mean news) that's aired on the NBC, ABC, etc. stations.

Bob


----------



## a (May 10, 2004)

yes bob,

much of our media is as anti-american as our enemy...


that's why i love &quot;el rushbo&quot; and &quot;sean o' hannity&quot;


----------



## a (May 10, 2004)

*Rumsfeld*

I think Sec. Rumsfeld did a good job Friday...


It's rather sad to see how desparate the Dems are, that they must use those moments to politicize issues that are actually important - such as this and also condee rice's interview....

the Dems just use it as a chance to publicly attack Bush's cabinet...


These issues are too important... resolutions to these issues could be so helpful...


anyway... that's my soapbox for the day...

[Edited on 5-10-2004 by ace]

[Edited on 5-10-2004 by ace]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

*Its an outrage!!!*

Regardless of other countries who have killed our soldiers is of no importance with this issue at hand these are our troops and it doesnt matter how bad the other guy is we need to be the good man and treat whomever with respect as humans and give justice to whomever needs justice.

This has been going on for two years amnesty international has reported this so. it is widespread and has not been dealt with. it involves.

electric shock
beatings to or to point of death
sexualy explicit acts
rape involving little boys
wrapping prisoners in saramn wrapo and puttign them in ice

this is not interogation this inhumanity and total depravity at its best and finest. This is a shame and thorws everything we have claimed ot do down the drain our credibility is out if this is how we are going to treat pows.

blade


----------



## A_Wild_Boar (May 11, 2004)

First the pictures should never have been released to the public. EVER. Sorry but I remember all my grandfathers pictures from WWII were reviewed by the ARmy before he got them back. Not a single one went by them. All of them had stamped on the backs &quot;not for publication&quot; for the ones not suitable.

This should have been and would have been dealt with internally. Whoever released these photos to the press should be brought up on charges and should get in as much trouble as the perpetrators in the photos. This person just set back the whole mission over there. Just as much as the ones in this photos.

What happened is nothing new. This is the first time some soldier decided to skip the whole chain of command and send the pictures to the press. 


The military is just reflecting the garbage in our society. Its amazing the attitudes of many todays soldiers. Many are just in it for the school money. Duty and honor are secondary if they even exist at all.

Most of the higher ranking people were fast tracked in the previous presidency and now they are showing how they handle things.

I am so glad I am not in the military anymore. Give me one of these 21st century reservists I would resign so fast. BTW why are the National Guard and reserves over there for anyway???? the nasty guard? Huh??? I can see the reserves if we ever started to deplete our main forces as thats what they were designed for, but the guard?

Oh well.



[Edited on 5-11-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)




----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

*Rumsfeld resignation*

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&amp;storyID=5092647

This issue is unexceptible and Top Leaders are the ones who should take full responsibility.

blade


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

I think it our leaders duty to set the example and be responsible for the men they command. We dont need the media to tear down the bush administration or even the leftists for that matter they do it themsleves. 

If we learn anything is that we msut set the precedent regardless if its hitler in that prison we must lawfully go about doing justice.

Vengeance is mine thus saith the Lord, even in Jude when Michael by all menas could have fought satan but simply said 'the Lord rebuke you'.

Are men should know better regardless if there in a war even more so in a war.

blade


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

*red cross report*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3700975.stm


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

*read for ur self 2 years??*

http://www.sundayherald.com/41906


----------



## a (May 11, 2004)

*let me clarify*

it appears that i had not yet been exposed to the full extent of the goings on by soldiers...

i am tolerant of embarrassing, ridiculing, and scaring (not scarring) prisoners... in strict privacy...

i am not tolerant of physically injuring them, sexually assaulting them, or PUBLICLY doing the tolerated things above...


scaring and tricking prisoners, embarrassing them, etc... can lead to saving lives - and they are humane... for example, scaring a prisoner with a vicious dog should certainly put the fear of spilling the beans in him... but i would never ever condone letting the dog actually attack the prisoner...


the more i hear about the goings on by these soldiers, the more i am so very disappointed... i've always given soldiers, and cops, etc... the benefit of the doubt when dealing with excessive force or &quot;necessary measures&quot;... but the more i hear, the more i feel they've crossed the line...


i'm not sure if we should be exposed to the specifics or not... as A_WILD_BOAR said, these things should be kept classified or unpublished... the military should be accountable but able to deal with the problems in secrecy UNTIL a criminal conviction be made in trial... then publish the offenders...

i dont' know... i'm just thinking out loud... (err... out type)...



A_WILD_BOAR brings up another good point about the integrity of our soldiers... many of them, but not all... maybe just some of them, but not many... they don't have the highest moral standards... soldiers have long been portrayed as sexually immoral - the movie Full Metal Jacket comes to mind... and we can do nothing but expect such behavior from those without the grace of our Lord stopping us from doing so...

(i know this is still no excuse - the standards of law and war have been set and should be followed by all, except those willing to accept the consequences...)


anyway, i've become long winded in my old age... yet no wiser...

ace


----------



## a (May 11, 2004)

hey! respect your elders, boi'


----------



## wsw201 (May 11, 2004)

For those that have not been following this very closely, it should be remembered that the prisoners involved are not soldiers, they are terrorist and murderers who have had no quams about killing Iraqi civilians as well as US troops and contractors. These prisoners have been apart of the resistance that burned the bodies of 4 Americans and murdered an Italian hostage. This happened in one section of the prison where these men were being held.

I do not condone what was done to these prisoners as there is no excuse as the President has said, and all those involved will be court marshalled. Hopefully they will not just go after the pfc's and non-com's involved but will take it all the up the chain of command.


----------



## matt01 (May 11, 2004)

[quote:f5ab797de5][i:f5ab797de5]Originally posted by ace[/i:f5ab797de5]
maybe i'm a bad person (well, yeah i am) for having this opinion... BUT,

i don't find them quite as shocking and terrible as others make them out to be...


it's war... and we need information... it's not like we were torturing them... more like embarrassing them and breaking their spirits - or should i say, encouraging them to give us information... information that will (and has) save lives...
[Edited on 5-10-2004 by ace] [/quote:f5ab797de5]


Those pictured are not giving up information. They are being embarressed for the enjoyment of the troops. 

There must firm and total punishment for all those involved.

former Corporal/USMC


----------



## a (May 11, 2004)

yeah... i think i agree with you partly... but i do feel their intentions were in the context of interrogation... the truth is, neither of us know with any certainty... 


like i said before, i don't have a problem with embarrassing the prisoners at all... they deserve to be ridiculed, embarrassed, and punished... in my opinion, putting these terrorists' to death would be far to merciful...

but how does the nude version of &quot;i'm a little tea pot&quot; compare to the beheading of that 26 yr/old kid Nick Berg? put it in perspective... those prisoners are lucky they weren't in prison under Saddam...


to me, the media is behaving far more scandalous... they and the Dems calling for Rumsfeld's resignation is absolutely asinine... they have no foundation to make such claims... they are politcizing a non-political issue...

If John Kerry was my only hope for my party's next president, I'd be desparate as well... hehehehe

God Bless G. Bush!
God Bless America!


----------



## Scott Bushey (May 11, 2004)

~What Matthew said........

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Scott Bushey]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

what scott ditto'ed


----------



## Augusta (May 11, 2004)

I hope no one here is trying to equate what a few bad soldiers did to [b:a2a8f72af0]terrorist insurgents [/b:a2a8f72af0] to what these [b:a2a8f72af0]terrorist insurgents [/b:a2a8f72af0] do to [b:a2a8f72af0]innocent [/b:a2a8f72af0] civilians ie Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl. These guys are monsters. Yes what the soldiers did was wrong and will be punished according to what type of abuse they dished out to the prisoners. Context is important though and this was being dealt with since January when it first came out. You may not know that because it wasn't such a big deal until some yahoo put the pictures out. In the digital age we can't keep things in the chain of command as easily as in earlier wars. This thing go on in a war and have in every war. No every soldier out there has moral clarity but the vast majority do. More is definely being made of this than has to. The liberals have sure changed their tune though. They are usually running interference for people with bad behavior. They have all sorts of excuses like stress etc. If anyone has stress its our soldiers who have to fight fair while soldiers and civilians alike are kidnapped, beheaded, and burned and hung on bridges.


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 11, 2004)

Augusta,
The argument that the liberal left is using this is purely wrong.They may in their own way do that.But come on this has been going on for two years is widespread and as more than harrasing a prisoner. This hitler type stuff not there almost they have killed thousands of people but do we really need to ride that wall???

To thorw this issue off as a liberal blow out is a lame exscuse im sure if your daughter or son was in that prison ud be a little upset.

blade


----------



## pastorway (May 11, 2004)

Some ( a very few) of our troops acted inappropriately toward prisoners of war and shamed them.

Many of their &quot;troops&quot; kidnap and murder civilians.

We are not acting like they are. Shame is not the same as murder. 

There is no excuse for those who did shame the prisoners - they will be punished. But this should NEVER be taken and used for political gain by anyone - sadly the media did not get that message.

I for one am sick of the news and the media coverage. We need to let the military do its job and send the press to cover survivor or friends or something......

Phillip


----------



## a (May 11, 2004)

[quote:ba71bc595c][i:ba71bc595c]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:ba71bc595c]
Augusta,
The argument that the liberal left is using this is purely wrong.They may in their own way do that.But come on this has been going on for two years is widespread and as more than harrasing a prisoner. This hitler type stuff not there almost they have killed thousands of people but do we really need to ride that wall???

To thorw this issue off as a liberal blow out is a lame exscuse im sure if your daughter or son was in that prison ud be a little upset.

blade [/quote:ba71bc595c]


it's clear that the liberal left IS using this for political purposes - such as calling for rumsfeld to lose his job... rumsfeld is a major reason this war on terror is successful, and they would love to use this against Bush... they are politicizing this just as they did with Condee Rice and the 911 Commission... it was blatantly obvious they used their platform to publicly attack her - and they wouldn't not accept her word, they would only blame her and blame Bush - as if it were their fault for 911...

your claims that this has been going on for two years is still yet to be seen... it's still yet to be seen if any more than these 6-7 soldiers are guilty... i read your links - but let's wait and see what comes of the military investigation...

i guess you want to blame everyone up the chain of command until Rumsfeld and Bush lose their jobs, too?


----------



## pastorway (May 11, 2004)

yeah...blade and his links.....


----------



## a (May 11, 2004)

[quote:941cd9fc81][i:941cd9fc81]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:941cd9fc81]
There is no excuse for those who did shame the prisoners - they will be punished. But this should NEVER be taken and used for political gain by anyone - sadly the media did not get that message.

I for one am sick of the news and the media coverage. We need to let the military do its job and send the press to cover survivor or friends or something......

Phillip [/quote:941cd9fc81]


philip, i strongly agree with you... the military has been dealing with classified information of much greater consequence... i'm perfectly confident that they can deal with a handful of sexually perverted common thugs... and there is proof that they've been investigating this issue since it was brought to the attention of the higher-ups... and they will settle it as planned... there was no need for it to be released... it just provides yet another tool to be illegitimately used by the liberal left Bush-haters to attack and question his strong stance in the war on terror...

send the press back to CO for coby bryant... or NY for martha stewart...


----------



## a (May 12, 2004)

[quote:439e5d7841][i:439e5d7841]Originally posted by ace[/i:439e5d7841]
yeah... i think i agree with you partly... but i do feel their intentions were in the context of interrogation... the truth is, neither of us know with any certainty... [/quote:439e5d7841]


from the horse's mouth - Taguba said it, his investigations suggest these photos were &quot;taken with personal cameras&quot;... indicating the soldiers were acting on personal impulses, and not in the interests of interrogation...

along with Rumsfeld, i am &quot;heart-sick&quot;


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 12, 2004)

I agree with Pastorway 100%:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 12, 2004)

Phillip,
Are you calling me a liar?? 

Ace-Phillip,
I do not care about Kerry I agree with both of you that this should not be used for politics.

OK lets take a look at my so called links and see what we find since you don't want to believe me because the only ting you can muster up is that I'm a left wing nut who supports Kerry and that I'm making a big deal out of nothing

I have done my best to highlight or bolden information I would suggest you need to read with an open mind because frankly it may offend you that people in our government might actually be evil.

Red Cross Report Describes Abuse in Iraq

May 10, 8:59 AM (ET)
By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS
GENEVA (AP) - (I excerpted Important parts of the article which can be found here- http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040510/D82FNPA80.html )

&quot;up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, according to a report disclosed Monday. 
The report by the International Committee of the Red Cross supports its allegations that abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and &quot;not individual acts&quot; - contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment &quot;was the wrongdoing of a few.&quot; 

&quot;Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,&quot; it said. &quot;Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.&quot; 
It said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated &quot;between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.&quot; 

had been telling U.S. officials in detail between March and November 2003 &quot;either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions.&quot; 
Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib. 
&quot;We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system,&quot; he said, declining to give further details. 
The report described how male prisoners were forced to parade around in women's underwear. 
It said that information obtained &quot;suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by&quot; coalition forces. 

My comments,
This article highlights that the torture-abuse was ongoing from the afghan war to the Iraq war and that it was a widespread problem.

Here is an article(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/) detailing the following:
1. That the CIA and Contracted Soldiers were apart of this Issue.
2. There are AT LEAST five other on going investigations this should reiterate the magnitude of this shameful tragedy.
3. Threats were made saying that photos of the victim being abused-tortured would be shown to family members to get them to speak-Saddam did the same thing worse but if doesn't stop we will get just as bad!!!
4. It also highlights how rep and dem alike are using this for an election time attack-disgusting.
5. Soldiers charged say MI told them to do these acts this is obviously a failure in command which needs to be addressed.
6. DOD has said that there is more shocking images and video yet to be seen.
7. Up to 1,000 photos depicting abuse.
8. Rumsfeld described the other photos as sadistic.

If you search around the links on this site more info is given.

One has got to wonder why we would sign the Geneva convention if we are not going to train our men properly in oder to follow those guidelines in which we agreed upon?

http://www.genevaconventions.org/ &lt;--- The Geneva convention.

In order for us to win the Iraq public over we must must show we are the better man that despite how he(Saddam) has treated them and our men we will be the better man and fight with honor, and shew Justice to all men as is according to law. We must not take vengeance in our hand for the sake of doing it no matter how much they may deserve it as human to human do what is right. Are we going to be an animal or we going to exemplify our integrity by honoring our fellow man by showing justice according to law whether there be war or peace!!

We must realize that regardless if the other man has no standards we must. It doesnt matter if the enemy does nto uphold morals we must.

Im to stop here for right now Im about worn out but if you cant get a clue from what Ive posted then there is no hope for to understand this outside of saying 'well he's just using this for political advantage cause sean or rush said so and thats my source for truth'

My:wr50:,
Blade


----------



## LawrenceU (May 12, 2004)

Blade,
Please take this with the emotion that I am writing with-disillusionment.

Have you not figured it out that the great majority of the sources you cite are agenda driven? The left wing media sources you continue to cite take rumour and trump it up as fact. They have done this for years. 

I have dozens of friends and colleagues in Iraq, in all branches of service; as well as contractors, engineers, missionaries, etc. What is being portrayed by the VAST majority of our media is not at all what is taking place in country. PERIOD. You are being duped. Our mass media for the great part either no longer views any culture as having any moral superiority or has a blatant socialist bent. They know that most Americans will drink their swill so they keep pumping it out for the benefit of their agenda.

Isalm is demonic - evil and muslims are hell bent on the conquest or destruction of all non-muslims. They began this war over 1300 years ago. In their minds it has never ended. These latest escalations were inevitable. When the West has failed to take the stong retalitory defensive, and yes preemptive actions required the muslim world has always tried to overwhelm it. History proves it.

The actions of SEVEN soldiers do not shade our entire military or country. Evidence is now coming out that these actions may very well be a direct result of our the media's dearly beloved Clintoniski's policies: women in combat situations and homosexual inclusivity.

What took place in that prison is regrettable. But, it does not negate the good of the 99.9% of the rest of our troops.

If you want my opinion, we should surround the areas that are causing problems give a 24 hour notice. During that time anyone leaving the area would be thoroughly searched and screend. When the time is up raise the Black Flag (no quarter). A few well places FAE's would really soften up the place. Or, maybe it would be a good first use for MOAB. Then move in.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 12, 2004)

[quote:060f31652c]Evidence is now coming out that these actions may very well be a direct result of our the media's dearly beloved Clintoniski's policies: women in combat situations and homosexual inclusivity.[/quote:060f31652c]

Now [b:060f31652c]THAT[/b:060f31652c] makes alot of sense!:yes:


----------



## a (May 12, 2004)

[quote:36adad4515][i:36adad4515]Originally posted by LawrenceU[/i:36adad4515]
If you want my opinion, we should surround the areas that are causing problems give a 24 hour notice. During that time anyone leaving the area would be thoroughly searched and screend. When the time is up raise the Black Flag (no quarter). A few well places FAE's would really soften up the place. Or, maybe it would be a good first use for MOAB. Then move in. [/quote:36adad4515]


now THAT's what I'm talking about! no more of this pulling punches!!! let anyone leave who wishes, then level the place to muslim-infested barney rubble...

Lawrence, what does FAE stand for?


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 12, 2004)

lawrenceu,
brother I agree not all our troops are bad im not saying that at all you should know that by now. Im ashamed at whats going on. Im proud of the ones who are doing good.

Yes Islam is demonic satan scum I know that as well.

BUT our contry and others and the Roman Whore are indeed responsible for some of the problems were in now. 

Its not all Islam but is them indeed.

blade


----------



## pastorway (May 12, 2004)

Blade - You know I love you, brother. I never would and certainly am not calling you a liar. I am not even doubting your zeal. But I am doubting the [b:599eb7f487]sources[/b:599eb7f487] you quote! 

You are afraid (rightly so) that the American public is being brainwashed and yet you continue to use unproven rumors that the liberal media is pushing to brainwash us. It is like you are concerned that we are being poisoned and you are trying to combat it by telling us to drink the very poison they are using. 

You would be better served to stay off the internet if the sources you read lead you to erroneous conclusions.

And as for what Lawrence posted, I agree 100%.

Phillip


----------



## LawrenceU (May 12, 2004)

FAE: Fuel Air Explosive.

A nifty little bomb that uses propane to flatten everything within its circumference of effect. We called them Puff on a parachute.

MOAB: Mother Of All Bombs

A new conventional that has the effect of a tac. nuke.

Kabloooowee!


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 12, 2004)

pastorway you are so wrong you dont even see it do you not realize that are own bush has business ties to the bin laden family?

prescott bush funded nazi's?

salem bin laden dies leaving crawford texas?

think about it??


----------



## Saiph (May 12, 2004)

Blade:

Isaiah 8:12

Do not say, &quot;A conspiracy&quot;, 
Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, 
Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Wintermute]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (May 12, 2004)

What trobles me is not the conspriacy as if there si one just people covering up theorfoul deeds with lies and manipulation. 

guys im gona give this a break for now.

blade-out


----------



## pastorway (May 12, 2004)

Oh the wonderful world of conspiracy theories......

Thankfully God is sovereign and Bush is President!

That is all for this one.

:smug_b:


----------

