# Do we have a PR problem?



## Pergamum

It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,


Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books



According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity: 

* antihomosexual 91% 
* judgmental 87% 
* hypocritical 85% 
* old-fashioned 78% 
* too political 75% 
* out of touch with reality 72% 
* insensitive to others 70% 
* boring 68% 


Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?


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## Stomata leontôn

* *antihomosexual* = believe bad deeds hurt others
* *judgmental* = will take you to task when you hurt somebody
* *hypocritical* = not actually Christian; probably Emergent and faddish
* *old-fashioned* = do not worship money
* *too political* = want to help everyone out
* *out of touch with reality* = have not caved in to money-worship, stupid fads, and Oprah
* *insensitive to others* = do not want others to burn in Hell; know that a just God will punish evil deeds (like hurting others)
* *boring* = the anti-Christian does not _want_ to listen to talk about treating others well nor about having eternal life

*Should we worry about these perceptions?* _No._

*What should we do about them?* _Giving up is a sin and a disgusting sign of effeminacy._

*Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way?* _Yes, sinners need to begin to love and to do that they must learn to obey their Maker as revealed in the Bible._

*How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?* _Stay away from Emergents/ings and all other hypocrites._


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## Pergamum

Peter;

So glad you are clearly so non-judgmental.


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## Stomata leontôn

Pergamum said:


> Peter;
> 
> So glad you are clearly so non-judgmental.


I love you so much I don't want to see you burn.



> Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mt. 5:10



I feel blessed right now...


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## Southern Presbyterian

I bet you that if Luther or Calvin had taken a similar poll in their day the results would be similar. So, No, I don't think we should be concerned. Preach the Gospel without fear of men and the Holy Spirit will bless it to it's intended purpose - [bible]Isaiah 55:11[/bible].


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## Pergamum

I know a lot of ungracious believers in grace that turn off the people around them and then blame it on persecution.

Do these critcisms of the church have any merit?


These statistics are drawn from polls from unbelievers. It appeas that the main beef that they often have is not against Christ or the Bible primarily but against the church and Christians.

Similar studies done in parts of SE Asia show that most new believers investigate the Bible because they find believers to be attractive and nice and full of love.

Again, do we have a PR problem? Do we blame our not-nice-ness on speaking the truth only (forgetting that "in love" part)? And are we setting up extra reasons for unbeleivers to balk at our faith besides merely the necessary offense of the Cross.


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## Pergamum

Joshua said:


> I don't know if we've _got_ one, but we may _have_ one.



Thanks Mr. English Teacher. May I be excused for recess?


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## Stomata leontôn

Pergamum said:


> I know a lot of ungracious believers in grace that turn off the people around them and then blame it on persecution.
> 
> Do these critcisms of the church have any merit?
> 
> These statistics are drawn from polls from unbelievers...


No, they don't have merit. Almost every Christian I have met is worried about his self-image. I have little left, because I have been trashed and crashed and left for dead on the roadside. Love me hate me, neither will change my lot.

At the same time, I have had enough positive feedback from people about how "cool" I was and how "popular" I am and the "best ever" to feed my swollen ego for the next thousand years.

And after fifteen years of teaching public school, I can tell you that kids love it when you speak straightforward fearlessly. The minute they sniff you are concerned about your *PR*, is the minute they eat you alive.

An undoubted faith in Jesus Christ gives you an irresistible confidence. (Guess in whom?)

In my first teaching job I was put on the six o'clock news and in the local papers. I wish I could claim the credit for it, but I cannot.

Kids and healthy adults know when a man considers every one of his acts in Christian love.

Call it being judgmental.


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## Christusregnat

Pergy,

The moment that Christians begin to take their morrings from wicked men is the moment that we spit on Christ's cross. You can fear man or you can fear God, but you can't do both. If we raise our finger to find out which way the wind blows, rather than receive direction directly from God, we are on the path that leads to destruction. God's opinion poll is in the Scriptures. If we don't match God's idea of a good Christian, we need repentance. If we don't match man's opinion poll, we're probably good Christians: that which is highly esteemed among men *is an abomination to God*.

Cheers,

Adam




Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?


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## Pergamum

antihomosexual 
* judgmental 
* hypocritical 
* old-fashioned 
* too political 
* out of touch with reality 
* insensitive to others 
* boring 


These seem to be people's perceptions of what we are.... is this troublesome? Is it true that we can be too political, insensitive to others, hypocritical? The world certainly examines us with a fine-tooth comb and diagnosis these things. Do we listen to this diagnosis at all?


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## Pergamum

Christusregnat said:


> Pergy,
> 
> The moment that Christians begin to take their morrings from wicked men is the moment that we spit on Christ's cross. You can fear man or you can fear God, but you can't do both. If we raise our finger to find out which way the wind blows, rather than receive direction directly from God, we are on the path that leads to destruction. God's opinion poll is in the Scriptures. If we don't match God's idea of a good Christian, we need repentance. If we don't match man's opinion poll, we're probably good Christians: that which is highly esteemed among men *is an abomination to God*.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
Click to expand...



Who ever said that I feared man?


The issue is not about fear of man, but about extra offenses by which we make the Gospel ugly.

The issue is about removing unnecessary offenses so that unbelievers know clearly that the main offenseis the Cross, not that most believers they met were judgmental or hypocrites.


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## David FCC

I think there is a small degree to which these stats should worry us. There is a view of Christianity that we need to take care not to widen.
Very often I find that those in the media who give Christianity a false image are those claiming to be Christian. Even today I was listening to a bishop telling the whole of the UK about Christianity yet when someone phoned in and said that we should look to Jesus he was very non comittal. 
Many things he said sounded OK but on the main points it seemed as though he was trying to please all sides. Now that is slightly off what we are addressing but I believe it is because of so called "Christians" in the media that people have no real idea about Christianity & believe all sorts of rubbish that is peddled.

If real Christianity came to the airwaves & it was explained about homosexuality for example from a truly biblical perspective there would be no grounds for arguing. The problem comes in when someone starts attacking homosexuals rather than homosexuality if you get my point
The same applies to the other points.


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## Grymir

Hey, I'm all those things...Except the boring. I'm not boring. That's for sure.

Of course, we could reverse it and make a list of things we think of the un-regenerate. If I didn't have to go to work, I'd make a list and get all the laughs.


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## Stomata leontôn

Grymir said:


> Hey, I'm all those things...Except the boring. I'm not boring. That's for sure.
> 
> Of course, we could reverse it and make a list of things we think of the un-regenerate. If I didn't have to go to work, I'd make a list and get all the laughs.


I don't like the cussing. The cussing really bugs me. I wish I could just make them stop.


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## BJClark

Pergamum;

*antihomosexual -We are or GOD IS?? And we say God is?
* judgmental - Again, we are? or God is, and we say God is?
* hypocritical - in the worlds eyes?? Or in Gods?
* old-fashioned --what does this mean??
* too political -- how so? because we are not afraid to speak out?
* out of touch with reality --whose reality theirs or Gods?
* insensitive to others --many people think honesty is insensitive
* boring --of course we are, they do NOT LIKE the things of God..




> These seem to be people's perceptions of what we are.... is this troublesome? Is it true that we can be too political, insensitive to others, hypocritical? The world certainly examines us with a fine-tooth comb and diagnosis these things. Do we listen to this diagnosis at all?



Shouldn't we care more about what GOD Thinks of us, and not what the lost world thinks of us??

They examine us by what? Their idea of what they think Christianity is? Or Gods?

Calling sin sin?? And they don't like it, because God is ALL ABOUT LOVE??

It is not we who condemn the sinner, it is God, and most times if YOU tell someone that, they lament "HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO SPEAK FOR GOD!!"

Can we take credit for their feeling condemned? Or judged by God's words??
I can't..

I honestly don't care what they think, I answer to God, not them.


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## BJClark

Pergamum;



> The issue is about removing unnecessary offenses so that unbelievers know clearly that the main offense is the Cross, not that most believers they met were judgmental or hypocrites.



Why is the Cross Offensive? Because it shows mankind his sin..and they don't want to look at their own sin before God, they want to continue to compare themselves to wicked men.


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## PuritanCovenanter

God is too judgemental to the world. Why would you consider what the world says? It should be about God and His character. The world hates him. So they will hate us also. And they will cast aspersions upon us. What is new. Who cares what they think? If someone is acting in a wrong way and bringing shame upon Christs name for the wrong reason the church should approach him. That is why we have the church. Pastors, Elders, and teachers are gifts to keep us in line. That is who we should consider to be our friends and judges of character flaws. Not those outside.

I just reposted this from the other thread asking a similar question.


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## Archlute

Pergamum said:


> ...Barna study...
> ...* boring 68%...



I sometimes yawn when reading Barna and his prognostications.


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## Puritan Sailor

Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



Pergy, 
Yes we should worry about it. Part of being a good missionary to our own culture is knowing how to communicate the true gospel to them. Of course the gospel will offend people and many will hate us, but we should not add to the offense of the Bible by our own unwillingness to accept legitimate criticism. Unbelievers are not stupid. They can detect true hypocrisy and sin. 

And frankly, these stats are disturbing because there is a brand of "Christianity" out there today which is not Christianity at all but just Phariseeism or legalism claiming to be Christian. There are many moralists and liberals, and neither have the real gospel. And it's giving us a bad name. It turns many people away from true Christianity without even hearing the true gospel. The only way we will get a hearing with these unbelievers is to show them by our example that we are not hypocrites, or judgmental, or insensitive. We need to show them that we actually love them and can offer something much better than the idols they worship now. We can agree whole heartedly with these unbelievers that the charicature of Christianity which they most likely reject, is something which true Christianity rejects also. We have a gospel that is not old-fashioned but relevant in every age. 

They will not repent and believe without the Holy Spirit but at least we can show them that we do take loving God and our neighbor seriously, which means not judging them self-righteously, actually listening to their concerns, explaining what true Christianity is and how it alone can provide the framework to properly understand the good things they do believe in, and consciously not making alliances with these factions in our culture which claim to be Christian but in fact are not. In doing this we can at least break apart their misinformed judgment against true Christianity and bear a faithful witness to the real Jesus.


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## BJClark

Puritan Sailor;






> And frankly, these stats are disturbing because there is a brand of "Christianity" out there today which is not Christianity at all but just Phariseeism or legalism claiming to be Christian. There are many moralists and liberals, and neither have the real gospel. And it's giving us a bad name. It turns many people away from true Christianity without even hearing the true gospel. The only way we will get a hearing with these unbelievers is to show them by our example that we are not hypocrites, or judgmental, or insensitive. We need to show them that we actually love them and can offer something much better than the idols they worship now. We can agree whole heartedly with these unbelievers that the charicature of Christianity which they most likely reject, is something which true Christianity rejects also. We have a gospel that is not old-fashioned but relevant in every age.



I have to laugh at this, because this is exactly what many have a problem with, saying "we are the TRUE CHRISTIANS While THEY Teach a FALSE Gospel"

So, while I agree with you 100%, even this comes across as if having a Judgmental attitude towards others, and something that is commented about, by non-believers.


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## christianyouth

Hmm... So what if Christianity was perceived as racist by the populace would it be wrong to work to dispel that myth? 

Or what if say.. we were in the early Church and we were being persecuted by the populace because they thought we were subversive toward government and that we were cannibals? Would it be wrong to work at dispelling that myth? 

Also, see John Calvin when he writes to Francis I 



> I am aware, indeed, how, in order to render our cause as hateful to your Majesty as possible, they have filled your ears and mind with atrocious insinuations; but you will be pleased, of your clemency, to reflect, that neither in word nor deed could there be any innocence, were it sufficient merely to accuse.



After the above quote, Calvin goes on to clarify his position and show how his accusers were misrepresenting his theology(and causing a lot of persecution to Protestants in France). Was Calvin pragmatic in trying to improve the PR of the Reformation with the French Monarch? 



From what I've found, people are attracted to humility and warmth. I've been involved in street evangelism for the past year or so. One time I got someone really mad because I was combative in my evangelism. They were angry, said some pretty mean stuff, and stormed off. Were they taking offense at the Gospel? In this case, no. They were taking offense at some youth interrogating them to find out if they were a true convert. I could have walked away and eased my troubled conscience by saying, "Blessed are those persecuted..." but that would have been dishonest. I was obnoxious, and people don't like obnoxious, arrogant youths.

But then at other times I was humble and loving in my approach, and the reception was much different. I have evangelized to a homosexual working at the car wash, told him how he was in sin and unconverted. I did it in love, and he actually appreciated me taking the time to evangelize him. I was with some friends so I had to cut it short because we were walking to pizza hut, but I prayed for him at pizza hut, and went back, and gave him a pizza. This guy was really touched that I got him a pizza, and it opened up more opportunities for sharing the Gospel at that car wash with a young teenager who just that day had been evangelized to by his Grandpa, a Presbyterian minister. This kid was not the type you would suspect to get converted.. Had a convertible and an attractive girl friend in the car, yet he enjoyed me taking the time to talk to him, actually hugged me before I left and said that he would think and pray about these things. 

Sorry for that long anecdote, but for some reason that's how I make points, lol. I just know that those two experiences have taught me how active we are in sharing the Gospel. But from what the majority of people have been saying above, it seems like it doesn't matter how we behave, God is sovereign and he will save the elect, and the world is evil and will hate Christians.

Let them hate us for our doctrine, not because we are ornery. We all know ornery Christians lol. I was an ornery Christian through most of high school because of low self esteem, and believe me, I quoted "blessed are those persecuted" when someone was mean.


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## Galatians220

Their terms and their perceived meanings are their own, and who with half a brain lets worldly clowns, buffoons and assorted self-deluded, craven nutcases set the agenda for any purported legitimate discussion, especially one of Christians and Christianity?

It's like trying to provide a decent, sane answer to the old question, "So when did you stop beating your wife, sir?"

These people live in an alternate "hound" of a universe and I don't want to "get up with fleas" by stepping into it for any period of time. *Nuts to 'em all.*



Margaret


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## a mere housewife

Certainly the world will always hate us but I think we do have a PR problem. Ironically I think some of it comes of not holding radically enough to what we profess to believe -- a salvation of 'exuberant' grace.



Puritan Sailor said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergy,
> Yes we should worry about it. Part of being a good missionary to our own culture is knowing how to communicate the true gospel to them. Of course the gospel will offend people and many will hate us, but we should not add to the offense of the Bible by our own unwillingness to accept legitimate criticism. Unbelievers are not stupid. They can detect true hypocrisy and sin.
> 
> And frankly, these stats are disturbing because there is a brand of "Christianity" out there today which is not Christianity at all but just Phariseeism or legalism claiming to be Christian. There are many moralists and liberals, and neither have the real gospel. And it's giving us a bad name. It turns many people away from true Christianity without even hearing the true gospel. The only way we will get a hearing with these unbelievers is to show them by our example that we are not hypocrites, or judgmental, or insensitive. We need to show them that we actually love them and can offer something much better than the idols they worship now. We can agree whole heartedly with these unbelievers that the charicature of Christianity which they most likely reject, is something which true Christianity rejects also. We have a gospel that is not old-fashioned but relevant in every age.
> 
> They will not repent and believe without the Holy Spirit but at least we can show them that we do take loving God and our neighbor seriously, which means not judging them self-righteously, actually listening to their concerns, explaining what true Christianity is and how it alone can provide the framework to properly understand the good things they do believe in, and consciously not making alliances with these factions in our culture which claim to be Christian but in fact are not. In doing this we can at least break apart their misinformed judgment against true Christianity and bear a faithful witness to the real Jesus.
Click to expand...


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## ericfromcowtown

Pergamum said:


> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



Sure, I think that on some levels some of these have merit.

Anti-homosexual: I think that sometimes we deliver only part of the scriptural judgment of homosexuality and in doing so fail to deliver the message that homosexuality isn't the unforgiveable sin. I pray that God, in his mercy, has elected some that are currently identifying themselves as homosexuals to salvation.

Too Political: If by "too political" those polled mean that Christians should never have a voice in the public square, then I disagree. If by "too political," however, they are referring to pastors using their pulpits to preach a political message rather than the gospel, then yes I think this criticism has some merit. I found the WHI's recent broadcasts on the doctrine of the two kingdoms interesting on this front.

Some of these verdicts aren't true of Christianity, but sometimes we do Christianity poorly. We can't let the unchurched masses direct us, but I think a little self-criticism can be a healthy exercise once in a while.


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## Timothy William

Pergamum said:


> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions?


I think *too political* has some merit. Some Christians are, to the extent that involvement in politics - or worse, endlessly talking about politics - seems to become their primary form of Christian expression.

*Hypocritical* is also true of too many Christians and churches. The others are, in my opinion, mostly with little foundation.

How many Christians do you know who speak warmly of how other Christians (all of them, not just the small group we get on with) are kind and sincere and honest and loving and forgiving? If we don't think those things of each other, can we be surprised unbelievers don't think them of us?


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## Galatians220

Timothy William said:


> How many Christians do you know who speak warmly of how other Christians (all of them, not just the small group we get on with) are kind and sincere and honest and loving and forgiving? If we don't think those things of each other, can we be surprised unbelievers don't think them of us?


 
Well, *that's *certainly true! I'll hoist a champagne glass to that:



Margaret


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## Archlute

It should be noted that many of those who would hold Christianity in disdain would do so on the basis of reading Scripture alone. I have heard enough atheists, feminists, and that whole crew making angry assaults upon God's word using the same nomenclature of "homophobic, out of touch with *my* reality, bigoted, oppressive, old-fashioned (regarding men and women's roles, sexual boundaries, etc), and intolerant/insensitive" to take any sort of poll like this with a grain of salt. God haters will go on hating God, whether they take it out on His word or His people. 

Remember that the second Psalm is clear in pointing us to the fact that God's antagonists hate Him, His rule, and His people. However, God doesn't sit in a corner somewhere, fretting over His loss of public esteem. Rather, He leans back in derision, and laughs at them (v.4, also Psalm 59:8), a term which has no "nice" angle to it if you trace its use throughout the OT. 

Of course, as agents of His inter-Advental mercy, we are to approach them with pity and with grace, knowing that God holds his wrath in check until the final day, but make no mistake about it that most of those who polled negatively would do so regardless of the Christians whom they had met - they poll in such a manner, because in their unconverted hearts they hate God, which is something upon which the Psalms do not equivocate.


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## a mere housewife

This is true. But besides other points made about specific things like the half presentation we often put forward about homosexuality, one is sometimes drawn up short in wonder at the gracelessness in the conversation of many Christians, esp when compared to some of those I have known with merely common grace. It makes me realize that God does indeed choose for Himself us weak and foolish people. But that isn't an excuse for us. I would think we had a PR problem regardless of what the poll said; because I have seen firsthand the way, as Timothy Williams said above, we speak about one another, and the personal animosity that enters into our dealings with unbelievers. I have seen them firsthand in myself.



Archlute said:


> It should be noted that many of those who would hold Christianity in disdain would do so on the basis of reading Scripture alone. I have heard enough atheists, feminists, and that whole crew making angry assaults upon God's word using the same nomenclature of "homophobic, out of touch with *my* reality, bigoted, oppressive, old-fashioned (regarding men and women's roles, sexual boundaries, etc), and intolerant/insensitive" to take any sort of poll like this with a grain of salt. God haters will go on hating God, whether they take it out on His word or His people.
> 
> Remember that the second Psalm is clear in pointing us to the fact that God's antagonists hate Him, His rule, and His people. However, God doesn't sit in a corner somewhere, fretting over His loss of public esteem. Rather, He leans back in derision, and laughs at them (v.4, also Psalm 59:8), a term which has no "nice" angle to it if you trace its use throughout the OT.
> 
> Of course, as agents of His inter-Advental mercy, we are to approach them with pity and with grace, knowing that God holds his wrath in check until the final day, but make no mistake about it that most of those who polled negatively would do so regardless of the Christians whom they had met - they poll in such a manner, because in their unconverted hearts they hate God, which is something upon which the Psalms do not equivocate.


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## Christusregnat

Pergamum said:


> Who ever said that I feared man?
> 
> 
> The issue is not about fear of man, but about extra offenses by which we make the Gospel ugly.
> 
> The issue is about removing unnecessary offenses so that unbelievers know clearly that the main offenseis the Cross, not that most believers they met were judgmental or hypocrites.



Pergy,

Since you just asked questions, I didn't say that you feared man.

However, regarding man's opinion is fearing man, and is a misplaced value system.

By the bye, Jesus said that we would not just be persecuted for "the Cross", but all for "His Word": all 66 books. The things you've listed fall (in many/most of the cases) within those 66 books.

Believers are often seen as judgmental or hypocrites only because the unbeliever is so overwhelmed with his hypocrisy and is judgmental in judging believers. This is why it really should not matter what an opinion poll says; it only matters what God says.

Cheers,


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## Archlute

a mere housewife said:


> This is true. But besides other points made about specific things like the half presentation we often put forward about homosexuality, one is sometimes drawn up short in wonder at the gracelessness in the conversation of many Christians, esp when compared to some of those I have known with merely common grace. It makes me realize that God does indeed choose for Himself us weak and foolish people. But that isn't an excuse for us. I would think we had a PR problem regardless of what the poll said; because I have seen firsthand the way, as Timothy Williams said above, we speak about one another, and the personal animosity that enters into our dealings with unbelievers. I have seen them firsthand in myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should be noted that many of those who would hold Christianity in disdain would do so on the basis of reading Scripture alone. I have heard enough atheists, feminists, and that whole crew making angry assaults upon God's word using the same nomenclature of "homophobic, out of touch with *my* reality, bigoted, oppressive, old-fashioned (regarding men and women's roles, sexual boundaries, etc), and intolerant/insensitive" to take any sort of poll like this with a grain of salt. God haters will go on hating God, whether they take it out on His word or His people.
> 
> Remember that the second Psalm is clear in pointing us to the fact that God's antagonists hate Him, His rule, and His people. However, God doesn't sit in a corner somewhere, fretting over His loss of public esteem. Rather, He leans back in derision, and laughs at them (v.4, also Psalm 59:8), a term which has no "nice" angle to it if you trace its use throughout the OT.
> 
> Of course, as agents of His inter-Advental mercy, we are to approach them with pity and with grace, knowing that God holds his wrath in check until the final day, but make no mistake about it that most of those who polled negatively would do so regardless of the Christians whom they had met - they poll in such a manner, because in their unconverted hearts they hate God, which is something upon which the Psalms do not equivocate.
Click to expand...


This is exactly why I believe that the popularity in recent years of affirming a commitment to expository preaching in our churches is insufficient. Lives will not be changed in the way needed unless the Gospel of grace is at the center of our sermons (expository, or otherwise), and as a result, in the center of the thoughts of our people as they subsequently interact with one another, and with the world.


----------



## Christusregnat

Pergamum said:


> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%



By the way, it should be mentioned that the reason that such things are put into print is because God's Word threatens wicked men in such areas. In other words, Satan wants Christians to accept sin (in themselves and others), he does not want them to expose the evil deeds of darkness, he wants to rule over the state as well as the church, he wants them to have a false "love" which does not exercise church discipline, and wants Christians to keep up with contemporary trends so that we forget our calling.

We should see Christ's people as Christ sees them: His sheep, growing in grace, struggling against sin, etc. When we listen to Satan's false accusations, we begin to view saints in the wrong light. That is the problem I have wich such surveys, among other things.

Cheers,


----------



## Puritan Sailor

Archlute said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is true. But besides other points made about specific things like the half presentation we often put forward about homosexuality, one is sometimes drawn up short in wonder at the gracelessness in the conversation of many Christians, esp when compared to some of those I have known with merely common grace. It makes me realize that God does indeed choose for Himself us weak and foolish people. But that isn't an excuse for us. I would think we had a PR problem regardless of what the poll said; because I have seen firsthand the way, as Timothy Williams said above, we speak about one another, and the personal animosity that enters into our dealings with unbelievers. I have seen them firsthand in myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should be noted that many of those who would hold Christianity in disdain would do so on the basis of reading Scripture alone. I have heard enough atheists, feminists, and that whole crew making angry assaults upon God's word using the same nomenclature of "homophobic, out of touch with *my* reality, bigoted, oppressive, old-fashioned (regarding men and women's roles, sexual boundaries, etc), and intolerant/insensitive" to take any sort of poll like this with a grain of salt. God haters will go on hating God, whether they take it out on His word or His people.
> 
> Remember that the second Psalm is clear in pointing us to the fact that God's antagonists hate Him, His rule, and His people. However, God doesn't sit in a corner somewhere, fretting over His loss of public esteem. Rather, He leans back in derision, and laughs at them (v.4, also Psalm 59:8), a term which has no "nice" angle to it if you trace its use throughout the OT.
> 
> Of course, as agents of His inter-Advental mercy, we are to approach them with pity and with grace, knowing that God holds his wrath in check until the final day, but make no mistake about it that most of those who polled negatively would do so regardless of the Christians whom they had met - they poll in such a manner, because in their unconverted hearts they hate God, which is something upon which the Psalms do not equivocate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I believe that the popularity in recent years of affirming a commitment to expository preaching in our churches is insufficient. Lives will not be changed in the way needed unless the Gospel of grace is at the center of our sermons (expository, or otherwise), and as a result, in the center of the thoughts of our people as they subsequently interact with one another, and with the world.
Click to expand...


You could also argue that if the gospel of grace is not at the center of your sermons, then you are not doing proper expository preaching.


----------



## kvanlaan

> Anti-homosexual: I think that sometimes we deliver only part of the scriptural judgment of homosexuality and in doing so fail to deliver the message that homosexuality isn't the unforgiveable sin. I pray that God, in his mercy, has elected some that are currently identifying themselves as homosexuals to salvation.



Thing is, most of the time starting with repentance and the forgiveness that lies therein is when it all hits the fan. The very idea that homosexuality could be anything but an alternative lifestyle is what gets blood boiling.


----------



## ericfromcowtown

kvanlaan said:


> Anti-homosexual: I think that sometimes we deliver only part of the scriptural judgment of homosexuality and in doing so fail to deliver the message that homosexuality isn't the unforgiveable sin. I pray that God, in his mercy, has elected some that are currently identifying themselves as homosexuals to salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is, most of the time starting with repentance and the forgiveness that lies therein is when it all hits the fan. The very idea that homosexuality could be anything but an alternative lifestyle is what gets blood boiling.
Click to expand...


Agreed. I suspect that even if we approached homosexuality "correctly," we'd still be attacked as judgemental by most of the people who took part in the poll. That's not to say that a double-check to make sure that we're preaching the whole gospel to those engaged in homosexuality isn't in order.

I read the question not to be asking whether the non-Christians polled were right in their judgment of Christianity, and not what we could do to alleviate their concerns, but rather is there any truth to their perceptions.


----------



## py3ak

Before we get too outraged at those impertinent unbelievers, or congratulate ourselves too much on the blessedness of being persecuted for righteousness' sake, we do well to consider this. A godly kind of Judah was rebuked by the heathen king of Egypt: should he have listened to that rebuke? (2 Chronicles 35:21) The sequel seems to indicate that he should have.
Again, the father of the faithful was rebuked by an unbelieving king _for the actions taken because of a lapse of faith_. Was that rebuke to be written off?

People's opinions are irrelevant, as we stand or fall to our own master, and certainly seeking popularity or even to have a PR machine are compromises of the Gospel. BUT, it is by no means inconceivable that we suffer from priggishness, self-righteousness, uncharity, bitterness and stupidity, and that we refuse to accept criticism on those points on the feeble excuse that we are the Lord's people and therefore can anticipate hatred. If men will hate us for our heavenly character, let them have at it: we will go on loving them. But we can't _assume_ that our character is heavenly yet.


----------



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih

I think back to what the Romans might have thought of Christians in the times of the Apostles. Here are some reasons they might not like them

* anti-orgies and pagan frolic fests 91% 
* judgmental 87% - how dare they judge Roman citizens.
* old-fashioned/uneducated 78% - uneducated jews and gentiles coming out with silly incomprehensible arguments.
* too political 75% - "king" what king? Is there another king but caesar? 
* out of touch with reality 72% - "eat drink for tomorrow we die" Christians did not meet the Roman reality therefore they were "out of touch".
* insensitive to others 70% - how dare the Christians denounce people who sleep with their mothers, or take little boys or capture slaves or have orgies etc....
* boring 68% - even in Roman times they liked to party it up.


----------



## Dwimble

David FCC said:


> ...If real Christianity came to the airwaves & it was explained about homosexuality for example from a truly biblical perspective there would be no grounds for arguing. The problem comes in when someone starts attacking homosexuals rather than homosexuality if you get my point
> The same applies to the other points.



The problem with that reasoning is that the bible doesn't just talk about "homosexuality" but about "homosexuals." Similarly, it talks about fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, the greedy, and so on. I would certainly agree that "attacking" a homosexual (or anyone else for that matter) isn't appropriate, but trying to focus purely on specific sins to the exclusion of those who practice and endorse those sins is no more biblical than doing the reverse. After all, it is not "homosexuality" that is marching in the streets, lobbying Congress, or influencing schools, children, the media, churches, and so on. It is "homosexuals" who are doing all that.

Many "Christians" are full of hate. You'll find the most loving and most hateful people inside churches. However, those who love the Lord should always endeavor to love both their neighbors and their enemies, and as much as is possible be at peace with all men. But nevertheless the world will always find an excuse to hate Christians. My goal is simply not to cause them to hate me due to my own sinfulness or meanness. If they are going to hate or accuse me, it should be because I love Christ, do the right thing, and won't participate in or endorse their sins. Let it never be because I am hateful, cruel, an accuser, or a hypocrite.


----------



## py3ak

We should remember as well the Proverb, _When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him_ (Proverbs 16:7). While this does not contradict our Lord's words about being hated, it does show us that being disliked by men is not necessarily a sign of God's favor.


----------



## Dwimble

py3ak said:


> We should remember as well the Proverb, _When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him_ (Proverbs 16:7). While this does not contradict our Lord's words about being hated, it does show us that being disliked by men is not necessarily a sign of God's favor.



Very good point. That's why I was making the point that if someone hates me, I want it to be because I love Christ, not because I have given them cause to hate me by my own sinfulness or hate.

Here are a couple of verses that regularly come to mind when I think about these subjects:

*1 Thessalonians 4:9-12*
*9*Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, *10*for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, *11*and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, *12*so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.


*Hebrews 12:14-15*
*14*Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. *15*See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.


----------



## Puritan Sailor

Consider this qualification of an elder: 

1 Timothy 3:
1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. *7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.*


----------



## cih1355

If a professing Christian is actually a hypocrite, then he should be concerned about that.


----------



## Theognome

Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



Are you sure this poll wasn't taken during Jeremiah's time? Or Samuel's? Or Ezra's? Or Paul's?

Theognome


----------



## asc

Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



I think it's helpful to know what current perceptions are, but i don't think it's anything we should "worry" about. i think it may be beneficial sometimes to help us understand where the culture is and how to engage it, while still being faithful to God's truth. 

I agree with other people's statements that much of these perceptions are based on popular "evangelicals" who are in the news; pastors who's churches we would never attend or associate with. I'd agree that many of these "evangelicals" are judgemental, hypocritical, old-fashioned, and too political.


----------



## Pergamum

py3ak said:


> We should remember as well the Proverb, _When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him_ (Proverbs 16:7). While this does not contradict our Lord's words about being hated, it does show us that being disliked by men is not necessarily a sign of God's favor.



Isn't a qualification of a church leader also is that a church leader must have a "good reputation with those that are without.." i.e. a good reputation even from those outside the church? I need to relook at this passage but isn't that the meaning of it?


----------



## Pergamum

Puritan Sailor said:


> Consider this qualification of an elder:
> 
> 1 Timothy 3:
> 1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. *7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.*




Thanks Patrick, you beat me to this quote....


----------



## Pergamum

Theognome said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure this poll wasn't taken during Jeremiah's time? Or Samuel's? Or Ezra's? Or Paul's?
> 
> Theognome
Click to expand...




I think that this thread is about PR but not merely about PR. 

As a poster above said, the unbelieving world watches us closely and I think how we interact with them is also watched very closely as well, and I think that we actually do come up lacking sometimes and can benefit from hearing the perceptions of us made by even unbelievers...


Do any of these things have merit:

antihomosexual - Are we condemning instead of loving primarily to homosexuals who need God's grace?

* judgmental - Are we judgmental and do we often forget to speak the truth IN LOVE to the unbelieving world that needs God's grace?

* hypocritical - Are we doing things that appear hypocritical to the unbeliving world who needs God's grace?

etc...

* old-fashioned 78% 
* too political 75% 
* out of touch with reality 72% 
* insensitive to others 70% 
* boring 68% 


If unbelievers say all of these things about us, how much is it because they hate the Cross without cause and how much is it because they dislike us...myabe with some cause?


EXAMPLE: Fred Phelps says many technically correct things. He loves Jonathan Edwards and I believe that he is a Calvinist from the little I have read. He often speaks the truth, but it seems not to be in love. We can be "right" and still go about it wrongly.... how do we avoid this? How do we show grace in a gracious manner?


ON OF THE MAIN REASONS FOR POSTING THIS: The West is losing its faith. As we seek to reach the US and the West again with the Gospel, it is important to study our target population is it not? 



As someone said above:


_Part of being a good missionary to our own culture is knowing how to communicate the true gospel to them. Of course the gospel will offend people and many will hate us, but we should not add to the offense of the Bible by our own unwillingness to accept legitimate criticism. Unbelievers are not stupid. They can detect true hypocrisy and sin. _


----------



## MW

I'm surprised "boring" doesn't rate higher.


----------



## Theognome

Pergamum said:


> Theognome said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure this poll wasn't taken during Jeremiah's time? Or Samuel's? Or Ezra's? Or Paul's?
> 
> Theognome
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that this thread is about PR but not merely about PR.
> 
> As a poster above said, the unbelieving world watches us closely and I think how we interact with them is also watched very closely as well, and I think that we actually do come up lacking sometimes and can benefit from hearing the perceptions of us made by even unbelievers...
> 
> 
> Do any of these things have merit:
> 
> antihomosexual - Are we condemning instead of loving primarily to homosexuals who need God's grace?
> 
> * judgmental - Are we judgmental and do we often forget to speak the truth IN LOVE to the unbelieving world that needs God's grace?
> 
> * hypocritical - Are we doing things that appear hypocritical to the unbeliving world who needs God's grace?
> 
> etc...
> 
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> If unbelievers say all of these things about us, how much is it because they hate the Cross without cause and how much is it because they dislike us...myabe with some cause?
> 
> 
> EXAMPLE: Fred Phelps says many technically correct things. He loves Jonathan Edwards and I believe that he is a Calvinist from the little I have read. He often speaks the truth, but it seems not to be in love. We can be "right" and still go about it wrongly.... how do we avoid this? How do we show grace in a gracious manner?
> 
> 
> ON OF THE MAIN REASONS FOR POSTING THIS: The West is losing its faith. As we seek to reach the US and the West again with the Gospel, it is important to study our target population is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> As someone said above:
> 
> 
> _Part of being a good missionary to our own culture is knowing how to communicate the true gospel to them. Of course the gospel will offend people and many will hate us, but we should not add to the offense of the Bible by our own unwillingness to accept legitimate criticism. Unbelievers are not stupid. They can detect true hypocrisy and sin. _
Click to expand...


*And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'* Matthew 22:39

*I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, Beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another with love, endeavoring to keep unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.* Ephesians 4:1-3

Even during the height of Roman persecution, the pagans couldn't deny that the Church was typified by a loving and forgiving nature. Eventually, the whole empire fell to this love and forgiveness.

Why should we, as a Church Universal, strive to comprehensively know our opposition when we do not demonstrate (as a Church catholic) the bonds of love and forgiveness? Reformation of a culture proceeds from the Church- to change the people of the land, change the fellowship of the land's churches. It's easy for the ungodly to speak ill of the Church at large- nearly identical rates of divorce, bickering and divisiveness amongst the brethren, quick to judge and slow to grant compassion, poor stewardship of family and Church resources, greed... all of these things can be readily seen just by surfing the web or tuning to TBN.

The population at large is no different than any other- there's nothing new under the sun. What lacks is a faithful, loving and gracious Church in the land. Let the Churches repent, and the land will naturally follow.

Theognome


----------



## AThornquist

Pergamum said:


> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%



If I had the opportunity to vote, I would vote that "Christians" are indeed antihomosexual, judgmental, hypocritical, sometimes old-fashioned, too political, out of touch with reality, insensitive to others, and _sometimes_ boring, although the last isn't really important to me. NOTE that I typed "Christians" and not Christians.

What unbelievers don't do is separate nominal Christians, immature Christians, and Bible-LIVING Christians; therefore, I voted from their perspective. INDEED, those who live according to the Word will be hated because of the Cross and their proclamation of the entire counsel of God's Word. However, to deny that by far _most_ Christians do not live as commanded (or even wholeheartedly try to do so) only proves that Christians are "out of touch with reality!" It sickens me how so-called Christians act and live because it fuels the negative perception of our true God and His ways! 

Love has been abandoned. As has this principle: "*Have no fear of [persecutors], nor be troubled, but in yours hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.*" 1 Pet. 3:14b-17

My point: just because we are persecuted or characterized in certain ways for being Christians *does not* mean those things have occurred because we have acted righteously in the sight of God.

This poll does not represent me or my church; however, it surely represents the group of people who call themselves Christians. That worries me some, but saddens me more.


----------



## Scott1

I'm not sure we can base much on a poll. Polls are often selected to secure certain results, sometimes even to generate news in themselves.

This poll is way out of line with other polls I have seen, and out of line with my personal experience also.

Do you have any information about the poll so we could look at this in a more informed way (e.g. the text of poll questions, who sponsored, how they selected respondents)?


----------



## AThornquist

Scott1 said:


> Do you have any information about the poll so we could look at this in a more informed way (e.g. the text of poll questions, who sponsored, how they selected respondents)?



Good point. These results look like they came from an LGBT community center questionnaire...


----------



## tellville

Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



I haven't read the thread so I don't know what other people have said. But I would say that we definitely should be worried about these stats. As Christians, we should be known by none of those things. Notice how not one of these things is "preaching some stupid message about some guy dying on a cross for my sins"!! Now if the list said we were known for that I would be all for it. But since when have we been called to be the face of antihomosexual bigotry? As Christians should we be the face of anti-intellectualism? As Christians should we be the face of the insensitive like the Pharisee was towards the injured man or should we be the face of God's love like the Samaritan was? 

How awesome would it be if the list said stuff like this:

* preaching some stupid message about some guy dying on a cross for my sins 91% 
* Knows some old book of myths called the Bible inside and out 87% 
* Ridiculous moral code that they follow completely 85% 
* Always trying to show culture how Jesus is relevant to them as opposed to making Jesus relevant to culture 78% 
* Heavily involved in the political sphere 75% 
* Firm grasp of reality 72% 
* Sensitive to others while totally disagreeing with most everybody 70% 
* I wish I knew what made them tick 68% 

Now that's a list I would be proud of.


----------



## panta dokimazete

Little perspective:

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 3:1
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

John 17:14
I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

1 John 3:13
Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.


----------



## Scott1

Not to make light of this but this recent average of polls shows Congress has a 75.3 disapproval rating:

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Congressional Job Approval

How could an average of polls (many polls) show 75% disapproval when 80% are re-elected on average? It doesn't make sense but that is what the consensus of polls is showing.

From this, we might "we" (however that is defined) might conclude we are about as popular as elected officials who represent us on the federal level.

One also wonders how this particular poll defines "Christians" and how respondents understand who are classified as "Christians." 

In the end, how valuable is speculating on information like this?


----------



## Webservant

If our actions are causing others to believe these things about us, it's our fault.



 We are _not_ anti-homosexual (or, at least we shouldn't be); we _are_ anti-sin (and rightly so). The problem is, we often spend so much time telling others to behave that we fail to tell them that even if they do "behave" they'll still end up in hell (and why, and Who came to save His own from this).


 We _are_ judgmental because we spend too much time looking at the speck in our brothers eye.


 We _are_ hypocrites If we look at the 10 Commandments and see them as anything other than a reflection of what we'd all really like to do if we only could get away with it.


 We _are_ old fashioned if we think that Gods word can _only_ be communicated using English that hasn't been spoken in 500 years.


 We _are_ too political because we frequently think McCain's stump speech supersedes 2 Chronicles 7:14.


 We _are_ insensitive to others when we fail to remember that sin is fun, and that letting go of a pet sin is something none of us has ever done through our own strength.


 We _are_ boring when we fail to understand that appreciation of music is largely cultural, and that even applies to church music (not the words people, I said _music_).


 We _are_ out of touch with reality when we wonder why people aren't breaking down our doors to experience all the above bullet points.


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?



I think most people think of the typical American Evangelical today and I would generally agree with the above statistics. Ironically, I think that the statistics are pretty accurate when describing those who call themselves "committed Christians". Most who claim that name today are profoundly ignorant of the Gospel and, for many years, ignorance has been viewed as a badge of honor for many Christians. To be "spiritual" is prized over doctrine and, in the void of good doctrine, has crept legalism and a baptized form of patriotism that passes itself off as true Christianity.


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## Semper Fidelis

Michael Horton has some very apt words in the most recent edition of Modern Reformation


> ...It is not a particularly "postmodern" reaction that finds talk of orthodoxy arrogant and narrow-minded. Chesterton speaks of the "dislocation of humility" in modern thought:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By asking for pleasure, he lost the chief pleasure; for the chief pleasure is surprise. Hence it became evident that if a man would make his world large, he must be always making himself small....But what we suffer from to-day is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled on the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert-himself. Today what we doubt is not ourselves but God's Word. (7)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new humility para-lyzes people from actually moving in any direction, despite all the talk of progress, innovation, and forward-looking excite-ment. "We are on the road to producing a race of men too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table....Scoffers of old time were too proud to be convinced; but these are too humble to be convinced." (8) Chesterton adds, "An imbecile habit has arisen in modern controversy of saying that such and such a creed can be held in one age but cannot be held in another....You might as well say that a certain philosophy can be believed on Mondays, but cannot be believed on Tuesdays." (9)
> 
> Therefore, when orthodoxy is defined by its particular convictions, it is seen to be more open and free, not less. In fact, "It is commonly the loose and latitudinarian Christians who pay quite indefensible compliments to Christianity," Chesterton observes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They talk as if there had never been any piety until Christianity came, a point on which any medieval would have been eager to correct them. They represent that the remarkable thing about Christianity was that it was the first to preach simplicity or self-restraint, or inwardness and sincerity. They will think me very narrow (whatever that means) if I say that the remarkable thing about Christianity was that it was the first to preach Christianity. Its peculiarity was that it was peculiar, and simplicity and sincerity are not peculiar, but obvious ideals for all mankind. Christianity was the answer to a riddle, not the last truism uttered after a long talk. (10)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not Christian orthodoxy but moralistic liberalism that reduces the surprising news of the gospel to the bland repetition of what people already know.
> 
> Chesterton refers to an article he had recently read arguing that "Christianity when stripped of its armour of dogma (as who should speak of a man stripped of his armour of bones), turned out to be nothing but the Quaker doctrine of the Inner Light....Now, if I were to say that Christianity came into the world specially to destroy the doctrine of the Inner Light, that would be an exaggeration. But it would be very much nearer the truth." (11) The Romans of the first century (especially the Stoics) were advocates of the Inner Light,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Yet] of all horrible religions the most horrible is the worship of the god within....Christianity came into the world firstly in order to assert with violence that a man had not only to look inwards but to look outwards, to behold with astonishment and enthusiasm a divine company and a divine captain. The only fun of being a Christian was that a man was not left alone with the Inner Light, but definitely recognized an outer light, fair as the sun, clear as the moon, terrible as an army with banners. (12)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The identification of orthodoxy with mere conservatism cannot explain how Christianity (unlike liberal "pro-gressivism") has brought perpetual shock and disruption to the status quo. "Some fall back simply on the clock: they talk as if mere passage through time brought some superiority; so that even a man of the first mental caliber carelessly uses the phrase that human morality is never up to date. How can anything be up to date?-a date has no character." (13) A heresy in the second, fourth, or twelfth century is still a heresy in the twenty-first. There is nothing "postmodern" about the suggestion that the faith has to be constantly conformed to the spirit of the age; this is the unassailable modern dogma of progress. With the whole world being divided between progressives and conservatives, Chesterton quipped, "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." (14)
> 
> Today, orthodoxy is often confused with a cultural and even political conservatism. This has not always been so (and still is not in other parts of the world). Frequently, America's culture wars are identified by sociologists in terms of "orthodox" versus "progressive," which is to define orthodoxy again in terms other than Christian doctrine.
> 
> Setting its sights on the plotline of God's mighty acts in history "for us and for our salvation," orthodoxy defines faithfulness by how well we not only conserve this faith but by how well we correct our faith and practice to conform to its rule. That's why orthodoxy has given rise as often to reformations as to conservations. It is a living faith-in fact, the only part of what calls itself Christianity that is actually alive. From this Archimedean point, William Wilberforce was able to stand almost alone in bringing down the British slave trade. Christian orthodoxy has no personal stake in progressivism or conservatism; its instincts are evangelical in the deepest sense: oriented to the gospel that creates and sustains the church in all times and places.
> 
> Heterodoxy is easy; orthodoxy is the challenge. Orthodoxy forces us to set sail for ever new and distant harbors, beyond the comfort of our cherished assumptions and practices. It is orthodoxy that is adventuresome, refusing to allow us to stew in our own juices. We are not allowed to reduce our horizon to the dimensions of our own experience in our own time and place but must become "catholic" creatures: opened up to the church in all times and places.
Click to expand...


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## MW

> We are not allowed to reduce our horizon to the dimensions of our own experience in our own time and place but must become "catholic" creatures: opened up to the church in all times and places.



Very good!

At College we were taught the first rule of public relations is that the customer is always right; at Seminary we were taught the first rule of ministry is that the hearer is always a sinner. Clearly the antithetical starting points lead to divergent methodologies.


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## Semper Fidelis

armourbearer said:


> We are not allowed to reduce our horizon to the dimensions of our own experience in our own time and place but must become "catholic" creatures: opened up to the church in all times and places.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very good!
> 
> At College we were taught the first rule of public relations is that the customer is always right; at Seminary we were taught the first rule of ministry is that the hearer is always a sinner. Clearly the antithetical starting points lead to divergent methodologies.
Click to expand...


I was just reading this article on my flight home today. It occurred to me that Semper Reformanda is often thrown around by Reformed folk when they want to challenge some catholic doctrine that has withstood the test of time. They assume it means that our doctrines ought to be progressing from a point of what they appear to be stagnation. Certainly, our doctrines need to always be tested against the sure foundation of the Scriptures but, if they are true, then they are stable and never stagnant.

It occurred to me, however, that Semper Reformanda is more of a Reform of the self and the Church, which tends to lose its footing and needs to be called back and challenged to resist the tides that pull us back into heterodoxy and extremely worn grooves of heresy. It is not the doctrines of Scripture that need to be Reformed but _we_ who don't humble ourselves enough to realize that we're prone to wander and not the Lord.

I love how you turned a phrase from Amazing Grace in a recent thread. Indeed, when we've been there ten thousand years, basking in His light and see Him for who He truly is, we will not be so foolish as to be wrestling with His Truth to suit the folly of a world that constantly wishes to pull away from it.


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## Greg

Pergamum said:


> Should we worry about these perceptions?



I'll just add that, yes we should, proportional only to the degree that we are _truly_ being obedient to God by loving Him with all that we are and loving our neighbor as ourselves as revealed to us in Scripture.

That may sound a bit simplistic to some, but that's how Christ summed up the Law and our duty to both God and man. If I'm genuinely loving God out of a heart of reverence and gratitude because of His wonderful mercy shown me in Christ, and I'm loving those around me realizing that the only difference between me and them is Christ, then I should be living a life of truth, holiness and humility.

If this is the case then the accusations of the ungodly should not sway or disturb me. However, if I'm inconsistent in any of those two areas, then yes, it should concern me very much as I would be misrepresenting the holy name of my Lord causing His name to be 'blasphemed among the Gentiles'.


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## Pergamum

Semper Fidelis said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people think of the typical American Evangelical today and I would generally agree with the above statistics. Ironically, I think that the statistics are pretty accurate when describing those who call themselves "committed Christians". Most who claim that name today are profoundly ignorant of the Gospel and, for many years, ignorance has been viewed as a badge of honor for many Christians. To be "spiritual" is prized over doctrine and, in the void of good doctrine, has crept legalism and a baptized form of patriotism that passes itself off as true Christianity.
Click to expand...


That was some of the same thinking I had.

Do you think the Religious Right has done this damage? 

I cannot click on Christian news any more because the news is not Christian, it is political news from a supposed "Christian slant" - sometimes full of revisionism and negativism."

I believe that we can separate the REAL offense of the Cross from lies and distortions about us. I also believe that we must separate the real offense of the cross from our own deficiencies and our own sinfulness that we often do not acknowledge because we are falsely led to believe that if we are offensive when sharing the Good News with others that we are being persecuted due to Christ rather than us being total boneheads.

We are quick to shout "I am being persecuted" rather than "I am being a blockhead!"




What are some ways to share grace graciously. How do we make the Good News sound like Good News to sinners? What are some ways to leave the only offense that people have with us as being the offense of the Cross and not the offensiveness of Christians?


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## Semper Fidelis

Pergamum said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is all well and good if people hate us for the Cross....but,
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Unchristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity ... and Why It Matters: David Kinnaman, Gabe Lyons: Books
> 
> 
> 
> According to Kinnaman's Barna study, here are the percentages of people outside the church who think that the following words describe present-day Christianity:
> 
> * antihomosexual 91%
> * judgmental 87%
> * hypocritical 85%
> * old-fashioned 78%
> * too political 75%
> * out of touch with reality 72%
> * insensitive to others 70%
> * boring 68%
> 
> 
> Should we worry about these perceptions? What should we do about them? Are they problems of Biblical theology that make us this way? How do we move forward and self-correct so that only the Cross makes people stumble and not us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people think of the typical American Evangelical today and I would generally agree with the above statistics. Ironically, I think that the statistics are pretty accurate when describing those who call themselves "committed Christians". Most who claim that name today are profoundly ignorant of the Gospel and, for many years, ignorance has been viewed as a badge of honor for many Christians. To be "spiritual" is prized over doctrine and, in the void of good doctrine, has crept legalism and a baptized form of patriotism that passes itself off as true Christianity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was some of the same thinking I had.
> 
> Do you think the Religious Right has done this damage?
Click to expand...

I think the "Religious Right" is more of an outgrowth of many different forces in the fundamentalist movement. The irony is that, for years, fundamentalists decidedly shunned political involvement because their dispensationalism viewed political improvement as re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. These movements sort of grew into a moral improvement society within where Christianity was marked by "holy living" in the form of abstinence from the world and all its evils. Their view of what the Gospel was already warped before they shifted gears and decided to level their moral improvement efforts on the society at large. The problem is that they are intellectually and cuturually illiterate in addtion to being ignorant of the Scriptures and that makes for pretty bad interaction in the world at large.



> I cannot click on Christian news any more because the news is not Christian, it is political news from a supposed "Christian slant" - sometimes full of revisionism and negativism."
> 
> I believe that we can separate the REAL offense of the Cross from lies and distortions about us. I also believe that we must separate the real offense of the cross from our own deficiencies and our own sinfulness that we often do not acknowledge because we are falsely led to believe that if we are offensive when sharing the Good News with others that we are being persecuted due to Christ rather than us being total boneheads.
> 
> We are quick to shout "I am being persecuted" rather than "I am being a blockhead!"


I agree. If we're going to be persecuted it ought not to be because we're just proposing really stupid ideas. It's not that fundamentalists have been wrong to be disgusted with the direction of society but they go about it all wrong and don't even have a good understanding of the Law so they could prescribe wise methods of governing to account for the fact that the law can only restrain evil in men (and, in fact, that men are evil since their Arminian leanings question that assumption to begin with).

They also tend to despise the light of nature in their common man and so won't engage in areas where we really should. Art is out of bounds unless it's pictures that are "Christian". Music is wicked unless the lyrics are about Jesus. Evangelicals have created a ghetto that's a cheap imitation of culture and, instead of recognizing some of the gifts of their neighbors, actually call these gifts wicked. We ought to be more sophisticated to see the wisdom in the sciences and arts around us without feeling we have to co-opt everything, place a WWJD sticker on it, and then baptize it as Christian.

My "neighbors" at work (that is my fellow Marines) primarily need to see that I'm professional, competent, and trustworthy. In that I am glorifying God. I've had some Pastors actually preach that we should think of ourselves first as Evangelists and secondly as Marines or Soldiers. Wrong, but that idea is so common. Six Days shall you labor... - it's not simply the loss of the idea of the Christian Sabbath but Vocation in general that has been undermined in this degeneration of Christian understanding. If I'm a troublemaker at work because I keep interrupting the mission by wasting my Marine's time by witnessing Christ to them every hour then I'm stealing from my employer. I'm not honoring God. But all I hear on "Christian" talk radio when I used to listen to it is how persecuted a person is because they can't have their "I love Jesus" screensaver. 

I'll tell you right now, I'll take a pagan Marine to 90% of Christian men that I've met to work for me. Why? Because the quality of their work is better and many Christians that I meet today are shiftless for the above reason that they think that living in the ghetto is where they do the Lord's work and, in the world, they view as a necessary evil. It's really a throwback to the medieval Roman Catholic Church where the holy people are the monks who live in monastaries. As for me, I want people who know me as a Marine to think: "That guy is fit, squared away, knows his stuff, and can be relied upon."



> What are some ways to share grace graciously. How do we make the Good News sound like Good News to sinners? What are some ways to leave the only offense that people have with us as being the offense of the Cross and not the offensiveness of Christians?



Obviously if we're respected in the community for the work we do then that removes much of the offense. If we actually listened to the Scriptures that teach us to live quiet, respectable lives then all the person has left to hate us for is the objective proclamation of what Christ has done. If we live lives that are honoring to God, show love (not disdain) for neighbor, then we're bound to have people that are going to want to talk to and listen to us. I find ample opportunity to invite people to Church and, when interested, to share the Gospel. One thing I hope they're not thinking is: "Yeah right, so I can become a shiftless, ignorant jerk just like you are? No thanks!"


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## Pergamum

Thanks Rich, I share these same thoughts.


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