# Seminary/Bible School's teaching about worship



## blhowes (Jul 12, 2008)

Lately, I've been thinking about worship, particularly what's seen in non-reformed churches. There is so much diversity with regards to how to worship God. I'm sure (?) much thought goes into determining the worship that pleases God, but I wonder sometimes. I don't know if many here will be able to answer my question (many of you (PTL) were educated at reformed seminaries), but I was just curious what pastors-in-training are taught at non-reformed seminaries/Bible schools about worship.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 13, 2008)

At Moody, where I did my undergraduate work, we received literally NOTHING in terms of a theology of worship. The topic of worship that is acceptable to God literally never came up. My worship class limited itself to showing the students how to keep time (to keep us from waving our arms around like idiots) and how to build the service around a theme so that the service would present a nice "package" to the seekers in attendance.

SBTS was different. In my class we discussed the RPW, but (as you can imagine) when it came to applying it there was a lot of diversity.


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 13, 2008)

I doubt many places actually ask the first question, which is 'What IS worship anyway?'


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> At Moody, where I did my undergraduate work, we received literally NOTHING in terms of a theology of worship. The topic of worship that is acceptable to God literally never came up. My worship class limited itself to showing the students how to keep time (to keep us from waving our arms around like idiots) and how to build the service around a theme so that the service would present a nice "package" to the seekers in attendance.


Hopefully, a good percentage of graduates like yourself go on to seminarly training where they're taught more about worship. For some reason, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking most Moody graduates go right into full time service (may just be what I'd heard somewhere, probably wrong).


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 13, 2008)

Most Moody students come from a non-denominational, independent Bible church context. 

Many go straight into full-time ministry upon graduation. If I remember correctly, the overwhelming majority of missionary aviators come through Moody. 

However, a sizeable contingent of students - particularly those in the pastoral studies department - go on and get MDivs. I remember the severe consternation we as a class received from the faculty just prior to graduation: They asked every pastoral studies major what he was going to do upon graduation... and almost 25% of the group was going to one Reformed seminary or another (mostly RTS Orlando). They were complaining about us unlearning all that they had taught us the past 4 years.


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

SolaScriptura said:


> I remember the severe consternation we as a class received from the faculty just prior to graduation: They asked every pastoral studies major what he was going to do upon graduation... and almost 25% of the group was going to one Reformed seminary or another (mostly RTS Orlando). They were complaining about us unlearning all that they had taught us the past 4 years.


Interesting. Did you prove the faculty wrong and not unlearn what you were taught?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 13, 2008)

I had a wonderful worship class at RPTS under the tutelage of Rev. Dr. Dennis Prutow.


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## JBaldwin (Jul 13, 2008)

Here is a link to the classes on worship from Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis. They are free online, and I have really been blessed by much of what is on there. 

Covenant Worldwide -- Christian Worship


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## DMcFadden (Jul 13, 2008)

I graduated from a non-Reformed seminary taught by mostly Presbyterian people (Fuller). 

We NEVER heard the term RPW or the difference between it and the normative principle. Nor did we ever receive any instruction other than to try not to tick off the older people too much with innovations (they would be so old fashioned and out of it, don't you know?).

I suspect "worship" became more of a topic after my departure more than three decades ago. However, from what I observe from the alum mags, it was only to stress seeker sensitivity as the way to claim market share.


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Here is a link to the classes on worship from Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis. They are free online, and I have really been blessed by much of what is on there.
> 
> Covenant Worldwide -- Christian Worship


Thanks. 

I liked this in the first lesson study guide:"(Worship) is a congregational event, in which Christ mediates our prayers, conducts and leads our praise, and preaches His word to us. He alone is the God-ordained worship leader...the minister in the sanctuary" - Sinclair Ferguson​
This part of the conclusion makes it difficult not to give it a listen: Conclusion:
Paderewski and "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star"​


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 13, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> I graduated from a non-Reformed seminary taught by mostly Presbyterian people (Fuller).
> 
> We NEVER heard the term RPW or the difference between it and the normative principle. Nor did we ever receive any instruction other than to try not to tick off the older people too much with innovations (they would be so old fashioned and out of it, don't you know?).
> 
> I suspect "worship" became more of a topic after my departure more than three decades ago. However, from what I observe from the alum mags, it was only to stress seeker sensitivity as the way to claim market share.



Your experience at Fuller is directly the same as mine at Pittsburgh Seminary.


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> I graduated from a non-Reformed seminary taught by mostly Presbyterian people (Fuller).
> 
> We NEVER heard the term RPW or the difference between it and the normative principle. Nor did we ever receive any instruction other than to try not to tick off the older people too much with innovations (they would be so old fashioned and out of it, don't you know?).


Its kind of a scary/sobering thought when you think of places like this, so many across the country/world, graduating scores of people yearly, sending them out to lead congregations in worship. (BTW, I'm sure there's much good about these places, and I don't mean to paint them all with such a broad, negative paint brush, but that one aspect is disturbing)


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## JBaldwin (Jul 13, 2008)

blhowes said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a link to the classes on worship from Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis. They are free online, and I have really been blessed by much of what is on there.
> ...




​


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## Robbie Schmidtberger (Jul 13, 2008)

I think the majority of non-reformed teaching on worship would be in line with the David Crowder Band. Which by any definition allows for anything. Others would fall in line with Matt Redman and Bob Kauflin. At the Together for the Gospel conference one of the free books was Kauflin's Worship Matters. John Frame's blurb on the back says that, _"This book is thoroughly biblical, comprehensive, balanced, clear, and engaging... It will be a great help to anyone interested in finding out what biblical worship is about and how to worship from the heart."_ 

This is troubling for Kauflin writes, "What did Paul mean when he encouraged us to sing, 'psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs?' No one's completely sure. Most scholars agree he seems to be encouraging diversity in the songs we use to praise God. "Psalms" might be referring to the Psalter, "hymns" to songs that praise Christ, and "spiritual songs" to more spontaneous expressions. If that is the case, Paul is encouraging us to sing all our songs-short, long, fast, sow, old, new-with gratefulness to God." (pg. 104)

What strikes me about this passage is the textual agnosticism taught here. "No one is completely sure." Kauflin is one of the leading, and popular, teachers of worship outside the reformed, confessional, camp. More troubling is that he is becoming popular in the reformed church as well. 

To close, Wayne Grudem, says that he will make this book a required text next time he teaches on worship. I find that dangerous.


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

Baldwin said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > This part of the conclusion makes it difficult not to give it a listen: Conclusion:
> > Paderewski and "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star"​


After listening to the first lesson, "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" fit nicely with the lesson. Very good illustration!


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## JBaldwin (Jul 13, 2008)

blhowes said:


> Baldwin said:
> 
> 
> > blhowes said:
> ...



Those lessons really are good, and I am interested to see what Dalbey has to say about the RPW. I have gotten through about half of the lessons, and it has transformed my thinking about corporate worship. I wish that more lay people could study worship at this level. It's worth the effort.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 13, 2008)

Robbie Schmidtberger said:


> I think the majority of non-reformed teaching on worship would be in line with the David Crowder Band. Which by any definition allows for anything. Others would fall in line with Matt Redman and Bob Kauflin. At the Together for the Gospel conference one of the free books was Kauflin's Worship Matters. John Frame's blurb on the back says that, _"This book is thoroughly biblical, comprehensive, balanced, clear, and engaging... It will be a great help to anyone interested in finding out what biblical worship is about and how to worship from the heart."_
> 
> This is troubling for Kauflin writes, "What did Paul mean when he encouraged us to sing, 'psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs?' No one's completely sure. Most scholars agree he seems to be encouraging diversity in the songs we use to praise God. "Psalms" might be referring to the Psalter, "hymns" to songs that praise Christ, and "spiritual songs" to more spontaneous expressions. If that is the case, Paul is encouraging us to sing all our songs-short, long, fast, sow, old, new-with gratefulness to God." (pg. 104)
> 
> ...



I agree.


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## blhowes (Jul 13, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Those lessons really are good, and I am interested to see what Dalbey has to say about the RPW. I have gotten through about half of the lessons, and it has transformed my thinking about corporate worship. I wish that more lay people could study worship at this level. It's worth the effort.


That's quite a collection of free courses they have there. It wasn't until I finished the first lesson that I glanced over to the left to see the list of other topics. To say the least, "wow!"


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## JBaldwin (Jul 13, 2008)

blhowes said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > Those lessons really are good, and I am interested to see what Dalbey has to say about the RPW. I have gotten through about half of the lessons, and it has transformed my thinking about corporate worship. I wish that more lay people could study worship at this level. It's worth the effort.
> ...



We heard Dr. Agan (Dean of Faculty) preach this morning in our worship, and it was one of the best sermons on Romans 8:31-39 I've heard. It left me wanting to know Christ more and understanding God's love better. I am glad there are faculty members of that caliber at the school, and I'm glad that much of this is available on line.


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