# Why I do not think corporate election negates individual election



## thistle93 (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi! It seems many of those who reject the doctrines of grace often point to Romans 9 as being about corporate election rather than individual election. For me even if that is the case, which I do not think it is, I do not see any reason this is denying individual election. For I see corporate election and individual election as tied together. God is electing a people for Himself (His church) and His church is made up of individuals who He is one by one saving. It is both/and not either/or. 

Thoughts?


For His Glory-
Matthew


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 23, 2013)

I think the real issue is the nature of how that corporate Body is formed. The corporate election view typically sees God as electing an "idea" of a group that will be elect in Christ. In other words, their view is that God doesn't have any person in particular but a group that meets certain "boundary conditions". As an example, God elects Israel and not Esau so, in that view, if you happen to be a member of one group or another you're either in the elect group or you are not. In the NT, God then elects a group that will be saved. If one has faith then they place themselves in that group such that the "crossing of the boundary" was accomplished by the person who exercised faith. God is not really active in establishing the means by which a person will meet "boundary conditions", He is only interested in setting those boundary markers and a person in the NT has to meet those conditions in order to accomplish them.

This notion of corporate election is un-Biblical. In fact, in the typical presentation of Romans 9, the person arguing for this view will use some sort of retrospective argument. "See", they say, "This speaks of Edom and of course God hates them, look how treacherous Edom was as a nation." That argument fails even appealing to the OT Scriptures (since they ignore Paul's context of treating the twins as individuals). The fact is that Israel (neither the Norther nor the Southern Kingdom) can be said to have accomplished anything whereby God would have decided to elect them.

Election in the Scriptures, however, uses personal pronouns to describe the acts of God by which He brings particular individuals to form His body. It is not left to simply a "plan" of a Body that will exist by the autonomous decisions of individuals but He elects and loves very specifically (to the individual) and those individuals form a Body.


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## Iconoclast (Aug 24, 2013)

thistle93


> Hi! It seems many of those who reject the doctrines of grace often point to Romans 9 as being about corporate election rather than individual election. For me even if that is the case, which I do not think it is, I do not see any reason this is denying individual election. For I see corporate election and individual election as tied together. God is electing a people for Himself (His church) and His church is made up of individuals who He is one by one saving. It is both/and not either/or.
> 
> Thoughts?



I have heard this error preached in this unscriptural way-

God has "elected a train".......now you the sinner must choose to put yourself on the train. Such ideas deny the reality of the fall and , speaks of a God who is not God at all...but one who reacts to the fallen sinner,hoping the sinner himself...with a little bit of help and some more information will make an informed choice.Then God will think about choosing the sinner as "part of the train".

God has known and chosen all the sheep by name.They are members in particular,living stones built together;
9 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


* Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house,* an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

He is Mediator and Surety for every single individual given unto Him.....He is an actual mediator ,and surety, for actual persons given to Him!

11 For both he that sanctifieth *and they who are sanctified* are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed *to call them brethren*,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto *my brethren*, in the *midst of the church *will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, *Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
*


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