# Carl Trueman... Opinionated contrasts between the UK and America.



## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 17, 2011)

A very challenging blog from Carl Trueman contrasting the differences between American and United Kingdom Bible Conferences and attitudes. Get ready to have both hammers on the barrels dropped at the same time. It isn't for the faint of heart.



Home Thoughts from Abroad - Reformation21 Blog



> In the UK, people come to hear what is said; they do not particularly care for who is saying it.





> Second, no speaker made reference (almost obligatory when speaking at trendy Reformed evangelical conferences in the US) to how gorgeous his wife is.





> Third, no middle aged speaker (and we were all middle-aged and unashamed of the fact) felt the need to talk like a teenager in some kind of embarrassing street lingo.





> Fourth, the only person who cried at my seminar was *** ******. And he is an American. And he is in Sovereign Grace Ministries. I do not think I need to explain further.





> Fifth, the appetite for serious theology in the UK church seems to be rising.





> Sixth, no clones, no groupies, no wannabes. Nobody trying to come up and impress you or be like you or, even worse, be you.





> A great event and a most encouraging week.



Finally...!!! I loved it. But I like being beat up mentally sometimes. I don't know if his observations are totally spot on but he does bring it on.


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2011)

Martin, as I finish up at Oxford, I have to agree. The church culture here is much more intellectual than in the states. There is more serious theological discussion and engagement of issues among the laity than you would see in the US (with the exception of many of our reformed churches). There's even a whole used bookshop (named St. Philip's, interestingly enough) that is devoted mostly to theology and Biblical studies. It's also interesting that Churches are much more public in their ministry: I've never seen evangelists talking to people in the streets in America, but I see them every weekend in Oxford (and I also sit across from a few of them at evensong). Maybe it's just the academic culture of Oxford, but religion seems to be more intellectual here than in the US.


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## Rufus (Apr 17, 2011)

I actually find that I sometimes prefer the British church than the American.


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## JennyG (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you guys, that cheered me up quite a bit! I'm so used to thinking of Britain as a region of spiritual death.
Of course soberness, seriousness and the absence of trendiness doesn't necessarily signify anything more than the fact that it *is* Britain


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## TimV (Apr 17, 2011)

I think it's difficult for someone who was once part of an important country to face reality. I saw the same attitude in Africa where people would spend all sorts of time talking about how aspects of their culture were unutterably superior to their American counterparts.


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## Peairtach (Apr 17, 2011)

> In the UK, people come to hear what is said; they do not particularly care for who is saying it.
> Second, no speaker made reference (almost obligatory when speaking at trendy Reformed evangelical conferences in the US) to how gorgeous his wife is.
> Third, no middle aged speaker (and we were all middle-aged and unashamed of the fact) felt the need to talk like a teenager in some kind of embarrassing street lingo.
> Fourth, the only person who cried at my seminar was *** ******. And he is an American. And he is in Sovereign Grace Ministries. I do not think I need to explain further.





> Sixth, no clones, no groupies, no wannabes. Nobody trying to come up and impress you or be like you or, even worse, be you.



Well I'm glad to hear the British character of the stiff-upper-lip and undemonstrativeness is still holding up, even although, sadly, 1/8th of our population was born abroad!



> Fifth, the appetite for serious theology in the UK church seems to be rising.


Well I'm pleased to hear it. I must be moving in the wrong circles.


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## JennyG (Apr 17, 2011)

Richard Tallach said:


> Fifth, the appetite for serious theology in the UK church seems to be rising.
> Well I'm pleased to hear it. I must be moving in the wrong circles.


me too, definitely in the wrong circles personally, but overjoyed to think somewhere that could be true!



TimV said:


> I think it's difficult for someone who was once part of an important country to face reality. I saw the same attitude in Africa where people would spend all sorts of time talking about how aspects of their culture were unutterably superior to their American counterparts.


How do you mean?


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## Wayne (Apr 17, 2011)

> I think it's difficult for someone who was once part of an important country to face reality.



If Tim had said 



> ...part of a once-important country...



then it would have been clearer that he had Americans in mind.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 17, 2011)

> Fifth, the appetite for serious theology in the UK church seems to be rising. I gave seminars on Athanasius on the Trinity, Luther on the cross, Augustine and Pascal on the psychology of sin, and Schleiermacher and Machen on the nature of Christianity. The marquee was full each day, the questions afterwards were thoughtful and intelligent, and the people were of all ages and from all levels of society: I spoke with highly educated Oxbridge grads and new converts from tough estates in Liverpool. The experiences of Mike Ovey and Mike Reeves, also running serious theological seminar tracks, were similar. And, for the first time ever in the UK, I was asked serious questions about ecclesiology, sacraments and confessions. Immensely encouraging.



My question: are these lectures available online?


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## lynnie (Apr 17, 2011)

It is hard to be intellectual or do serious theology in a culture where people do not read. After being the librarians in three different churches we have gotten used to it, but it still saddens me. 

We visited a church in Princton once filled with the upper crust of society and academia, and the pastor from the pulpit BEGGED his flock to try and read at least one book every year. He held up four ( good) books as examples to help them learn more about God. One book a year in a highly educated all white wealthy suburban crowd, well, I was surprised at such a mediocre challenge.

One of my kids reads a lot, three moderately, and the last dislikes books. But they and all their friends could spend time on the computer 24/7. It is a sad cultural development in my opinion, and certainly not good for learning theology.


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## Curt (Apr 17, 2011)

It's absolutely amazing to me from how many different sources I received this today. It's viral in my inbox, FaceBook and here on the PB.


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## Andres (Apr 17, 2011)

Curt said:


> It's absolutely amazing to me from how many different sources I received this today. It's viral in my inbox, FaceBook and here on the PB.



We all wanted to be sure you saw it.


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## Curt (Apr 17, 2011)

Andres said:


> We all wanted to be sure you saw it



Yeah, I WAS about to mention my gorgeous wife.


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2011)

lynnie said:


> One of my kids reads a lot, three moderately, and the last dislikes books. But they and all their friends could spend time on the computer 24/7. It is a sad cultural development in my opinion, and certainly not good for learning theology.



Depends: there are great theological resources online (the CCEL comes to mind). And then, of course, there's this forum called the Puritanboard you might have heard of . . .


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## Andres (Apr 17, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> > One of my kids reads a lot, three moderately, and the last dislikes books. But they and all their friends could spend time on the computer 24/7. It is a sad cultural development in my opinion, and certainly not good for learning theology.
> ...


 
 I would add Monergism.com. Point your kids there and it should keep them busy for a while.


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## SRoper (Apr 17, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> > Fifth, the appetite for serious theology in the UK church seems to be rising. I gave seminars on Athanasius on the Trinity, Luther on the cross, Augustine and Pascal on the psychology of sin, and Schleiermacher and Machen on the nature of Christianity. The marquee was full each day, the questions afterwards were thoughtful and intelligent, and the people were of all ages and from all levels of society: I spoke with highly educated Oxbridge grads and new converts from tough estates in Liverpool. The experiences of Mike Ovey and Mike Reeves, also running serious theological seminar tracks, were similar. And, for the first time ever in the UK, I was asked serious questions about ecclesiology, sacraments and confessions. Immensely encouraging.
> 
> 
> 
> My question: are these lectures available online?


 
I'm interested too--as long as I recognize the speakers.


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## seajayrice (Apr 17, 2011)

Great article, loved it, spot on Carl! But what's up with the the dis to SGM (I loved that too )? What's wrong with having a hot wife, that must be a British thing.


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> What's wrong with having a hot wife, that must be a British thing.



It's bad form to brag about things in Britain. You brag about your wife it sounds like you're commenting on your own good taste.


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## seajayrice (Apr 17, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > What's wrong with having a hot wife, that must be a British thing.
> ...


 
Well yeah!


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## Wayne (Apr 17, 2011)

Carl's just out of sorts. Next year, somebody invite him to Twin Lakes.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 17, 2011)

He was at Twin Lakes a couple of years ago, if I recall correctly.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 17, 2011)

He was also at the GPTS Spring Conference a couple of years ago.


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2011)

Let's just be honest: the Church in America _is_ leader-obsessed and overly-concerned with being "cool." The Church in the UK knows it's not cool, and so (paradoxically) ends up looking less out of touch and more intellectual than the American Church. There is a lot more liberalism in Britain, but it's possible that it will weed itself out. The thriving churches in Britain are all evangelical (in the original sense of the word) and even better, are reaching out to their communities.


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## Curt (Apr 17, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Let's just be honest: the Church in America is leader-obsessed and overly-concerned with being "cool." The Church in the UK knows it's not cool, and so (paradoxically) ends up looking less out of touch and more intellectual than the American Church. There is a lot more liberalism in Britain, but it's possible that it will weed itself out. The thriving churches in Britain are all evangelical (in the original sense of the word) and even better, are reaching out to their communities.



Yes, the church in the USofA is very super-star oriented (you DO NOT want to get me started on that topic). Having an accent makes one even cooler, regardless of content (or lack thereof). I don't know about the comparison with the church in Jolly Olde, however.


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## Heidelberg1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Two bloggers went into the temple to pray. One looked up to God and said, "I thank you God that we are not like those confused Americans. We care about substance, not about personalities. We keep our comments about our wives to ourselves. We are proud to be middle aged and we do not use that embarrassing teenage street lingo in our talks. We most certainly do not display our emotions in public, and yikes, thank you God that we do not display tears ever. I thank you God that we have an appetite for serious theology, not for that fluff that passes for theology over there. And praise God no one in our meetings comes across as trying to impress others, or trying to be like others, that you have given us freedom to be just ourselves. Thank you! Amen! And the other blogger would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "Thank you God that you are doing a great work in the UK. May it continue to increase and bless more and more people. Have mercy on us, and let us see even a small fraction of what you are doing there. Amen.


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## Wayne (Apr 17, 2011)

Where was your avatar picture taken, Willie? Looks like a thatched roof on that building in the background.


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## TimV (Apr 17, 2011)

Exactly, Kevin


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## JonathanHunt (Apr 18, 2011)

AS someone with experience of the UK and of the particular 'conference' (hardly the word) that Trueman went to, it is not exactly fair to say that people don't come to hear personailities here in the UK. The problem is perhaps not quite as bad as in the USA, but it is still here.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 18, 2011)

JonathanHunt said:


> S someone with experience of the UK and of the particular 'conference' (hardly the word) that Trueman went to ...



Jonathan, why do you describe this conference in this way? Are you being negative or positive toward it?

It's always difficult to tell with you Brits.


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## FCC (Apr 18, 2011)

I think (if that matters any) that we should be rexamining ourselves in light of our reputation. Christian's in the United States have drank in our selfish, pop culture for years. We have wallowed in the mire, so to speak and that is being noticed in other countries. Instead of being known for our sobermindness and our Christlikness, we are known for our lightness and frivolity. 

Whenever I read something that describes some segment of American culture in other lands, it makes me stop and examine myself and my life. Do I fulfill the mandate to be sober minded? Do I represent Christ to the culture around me? Or am I just another semi-pagan, caught up in the worship of self? Do I love the world or is the world my enemy, just as it is Christ's enemy? Am I a new creature in Christ, in which old things have passed away and all things have been made new? 

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."


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## JennyG (Apr 18, 2011)

Heidelberg1 said:


> Two bloggers went into the temple to pray. One looked up to God and said, "I thank you God that we are not like those confused Americans. We care about substance, not about personalities. We keep our comments about our wives to ourselves. We are proud to be middle aged and we do not use that embarrassing teenage street lingo in our talks. We most certainly do not display our emotions in public, and yikes, thank you God that we do not display tears ever. I thank you God that we have an appetite for serious theology, not for that fluff that passes for theology over there. And praise God no one in our meetings comes across as trying to impress others, or trying to be like others, that you have given us freedom to be just ourselves. Thank you! Amen!


but, be fair  the praise was coming from your American (wasn't he?) commentator, not from the people themselves


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## Grillsy (Apr 18, 2011)

Wayne said:


> Where was your avatar picture taken, Willie? Looks like a thatched roof on that building in the background.



It is indeed! The picture was taken in front an early 1700s Irish farmhouse that had been relocated to Virginia.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 18, 2011)

JonathanHunt said:


> AS someone with experience of the UK and of the particular 'conference' (hardly the word) that Trueman went to, it is not exactly fair to say that people don't come to hear personailities here in the UK. The problem is perhaps not quite as bad as in the USA, but it is still here.



I saw similar thoughts elsewhere. On a blog I saw a comment in which the commenter wondered if Dr. Trueman had been away too long to recognize who the personalities in the UK are. 

Also, as one who is admittedly not very familiar with the UK evangelical scene, couldn't it be said that Lloyd-Jones and Stott (and maybe Packer) were great "personalities" of the past that people very likely came to see? I recall recently reading that for many years UK evangelicals have been looking for the next Lloyd-Jones, or at least that was the case for several years after his death. I can't remember where I saw that.


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## Peairtach (Apr 18, 2011)

JennyG said:


> Heidelberg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Two bloggers went into the temple to pray. One looked up to God and said, "I thank you God that we are not like those confused Americans. We care about substance, not about personalities. We keep our comments about our wives to ourselves. We are proud to be middle aged and we do not use that embarrassing teenage street lingo in our talks. We most certainly do not display our emotions in public, and yikes, thank you God that we do not display tears ever. I thank you God that we have an appetite for serious theology, not for that fluff that passes for theology over there. And praise God no one in our meetings comes across as trying to impress others, or trying to be like others, that you have given us freedom to be just ourselves. Thank you! Amen!
> ...


 
Carl Trueman isn't a Yank; he's a Brit.



> Also, as one who is admittedly not very familiar with the UK evangelical scene, couldn't it be said that Lloyd-Jones and Stott (and maybe Packer) were great "personalities" of the past that people very likely came to see? I recall recently reading that for many years UK evangelicals have been looking for the next Lloyd-Jones, or at least that was the case for several years after his death. I can't remember where I saw that.



People also used to come to see Spurgeon and Dr John Kennedy, if my memory serves me well.


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## torstar (Apr 18, 2011)

Not sure Lloyd-Jones carries much weight with Carl & Co.

Carl is always good for flip comments and edifying comments at the same time.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 18, 2011)

Another question needs to be raised: is it possible that popular Brits (e.g., MLJ, Stott, and even Trueman himself) receive that designation from personality-driven Americans and not the good folks on the other side of the pond?

Also, another thought occurs to me: I remember a few years ago when we had a Scottish couple visit our church. They had been in the CoS most of their lives, and had moved to the U.S. in their retirement to be with grandchildren. I mentioned Sinclair Ferguson (who at that time had been in the CoS for many years and had himself recently taken a call at an ARP church in the U.S.) to them as a point of contact, and they had never heard of him. I quickly downloaded and burned a couple of sermons by Dr. Ferguson for them. But is it possible that this phenomenon extends throughout the U.K.? Is this another indication of how personality-driven we Americans are, even within the church?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 18, 2011)

In a Ref 21 article from August 2008 (which is also in Dr. Trueman's book "The Wages of Spin") he already touched on this subject.

The Day They Tried to Recruit Me - Reformation21


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 18, 2011)

As a side note I am sure that the Personality issue probably wasn't as downplayed in the Past. Everyone knows who John Knox was probably. And when the Wesley's, Whitefield, Howell Harris, and the other guys were raising such a stink, in what is known as the UK now, people flocked in droves to listen to them or persecute them.


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## discipulo (Apr 18, 2011)

I read the full article on REF21.

I don’t necessarily see as being a great virtue, and certainly not either a British or a Continental virtue, that thing of going to hear on a topic, no matter who is the speaker.

Surely the super-star culture is not an healthy environment in any context, much less in the Church.

Maybe, I mean maybe, the US, of what I know, is slightly more into big names, than Europe, but that is a small quantitative difference, not a large or qualitative difference.

You have more big names - if I may use the expression - but you are a bigger nation with a better marketing mediatic system, that’s not terribly wrong, and a number of the big names are actually European.

I remember well when in European Evangelical Circles the names of Packer or Stott on the back cover or on the preface were enough to sell a book.

D A Carson comes to mind (Ferguson, Derek Thomas or Joel Beeeke too) , and I wouldn’t mind hearing Carson on any given theological topic, the guy may be not over-confessional, but he is solid, and that is what matters to me.

But I would find myself willing to hear guys like Douglas Kelly, Richard Phillips, Tremper Longman, Pipa, Horton, Sproul, etc, etc, the same way.

Do we have the same mentality on our side of the Atlantic, certainly, a specific example, Selderhuis made himself, with due merit, a reputation as a Calvin Scholar, his lectures are packed, and that is great. 

MLJ is an interesting personality because he wanted none of it (the lime light), he was always a very humble servant, while Stott was more willing to get on the central stage. Well so is Piper or Keller, and they manage to remain as Stott, thank God, humble godly men.

On the other hand those of us who are not scholars we need, references and labels, we trust some teachers as sound and others as problematic, others we should even avoid for the sake of not being confused at best, or poisoned at worse, by false teaching.

For instance NT Wright is a big name all over here, he packs audiences, and he has interesting and good things to say, but he has a lot not so good too. Just being a lecture on Covenant would not draw me unless I knew where it was coming from, and well, coming from Wright, I would rather pass. While many would not make much of the title but still would flock to hear him.

Look at Barth, he became an Icon, yep, Great Expectations, as wrote Charles Dickens.

Having said this, *I have a great respect for Trueman, but I regret to say that I found his article a bit upper nose, a bit posch! *

All cultures have virtues and weaknesses, it’s not like the US Reformed circles are better or worse than the European. I don’t buy that.

_*Second, no speaker made reference (almost obligatory when speaking at trendy Reformed evangelical conferences in the US) to how gorgeous his wife is. That is an odd and most distasteful American phenomenon.*_

I also see this as an over generalization, to say the least, correct me if I wrong, but Trueman is using quite an unfair stereotype to make a dubious point.

_*Third, no middle aged speaker (and we were all middle-aged and unashamed of the fact) felt the need to talk like a teenager in some kind of embarrassing street lingo. *_

Whom does he have in mind? Mark Driscoll. Ok, anyone else he could be referring to? Seems to me it is another unfair generalization. The tree is not the forest!

Of course it is good that he sees serious theological appetite and interest in the UK. Praise God.

Does that mean it is not happening, and for a while now, in the US? Of course not, we actually wish in Europe things would be developing so well in confessional reformed circles as they are in the Us. 
It is no longer the UK, Scotland, Switzerland, Hungary or Holland, Please remember that, the US is the spearhead of Further Reformation now. No doubt about that.

After all, where is Carl Trueman? 

Last, his conclusion: 

_*We clearly failed to clone ourselves. Failure by US standards -- but a great result in the UK. *_

All in all this seems to me quite uncharitable, I don’t buy it that Reformed Theologians and Professors in the US look for cloning themselves or their ideas, that is an unfortunate statement.

Teachers aim to be dispensable, that is the true Teacher’s measure of success. To know their students reached maturity, critique skills, have a voice, have goals, are producing good scholarship, and are not just on the shadow of their mentors, are going forth, will carry on.

True Teachers are the same on both sides of the Atlantic, like coaches they place their knowledge and experience at the service of a generation, they don’t want to produce imitators, they want to give the right tools that younger Disciples of Christ may go into their Churches and into all the world fulfilling the Great Commission.


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## torstar (Apr 18, 2011)

Cesar, I think Carl was being a bit tongue-in-cheek in that article.

I read it and laughed a bit and didn't give it 2 more seconds thought.


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## JonathanHunt (Apr 19, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> JonathanHunt said:
> 
> 
> > S someone with experience of the UK and of the particular 'conference' (hardly the word) that Trueman went to ...
> ...



Because it is a very expensive family holiday by the seaside with various talks and seminars that you can attend. I'm not being positive or negative, I just don't think that 'conference' is the right word. The worst thing about it is their total disregard for the Lord's Day. There is no opportunity to worship over and above any other day. But that's a seperate subject.


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## Marrow Man (Apr 19, 2011)

JonathanHunt said:


> The worst thing about it is their total disregard for the Lord's Day. There is no opportunity to worship over and above any other day. But that's a seperate subject.



 

I did not realize that. That is awful.


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## torstar (Apr 19, 2011)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> In a Ref 21 article from August 2008 (which is also in Dr. Trueman's book "The Wages of Spin") he already touched on this subject.
> 
> The Day They Tried to Recruit Me - Reformation21


 

Brilliant as always from Carl. Reminds me of C.S. Lewis warning of addiction to "inner circles."

Canadians take to this British irony and realism like a fish to water.


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## discipulo (Apr 20, 2011)

Thank you Kent, for posting this, very good.

It's a great warning to students and teachers alike, of Theology or else.


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## torstar (Apr 20, 2011)

Cesar, I didn't post, was just responding.

I can't take credit for good things I didn't do, no matter how tempting... 

Carl's writings and contributions to Reformed Forum/Christ the Center podcasts are very important to me. If I were a student in his life I would want to spend time with him and tap his mind as much as possible.


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## Rufus (Apr 20, 2011)

> Fourth, the only person who cried at my seminar was *** ******. And he is an American. And he is in Sovereign Grace Ministries. I do not think I need to explain further.



I want to know who cried


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