# Should Seminaries Reinstate Dress Codes?



## bookslover (Jul 25, 2022)

The only seminary that I'm aware of that has a dress code is The Master's Seminary in Sun Valley, California, which requires suits and ties for its students when they are on campus. There might be others.

The question is: _should_ there be dress codes?

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

I'm surprised dress codes _aren't _the norm at American seminaries. I think there should definitely be basic requirement to be dressed smartly (smart casual - not necessarily full suit and tie) and of course modestly.

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## iainduguid (Jul 25, 2022)

"Reinstate dress codes" suggests that there used to be such things on a widespread basis. I'd be surprised if Old Princeton had a formal dress code, or Westminster at its founding in the 1920's. The pictures you see that feature men in suits are simply because that's what men generally wore in those days to go out in public - even working men. If you look at pictures of the FA cup final from the 1950's, all the men are wearing suits. I remember my father wearing old suit trousers for gardening since he simply didn't possess any other form of attire (apart from his kilt for hill walking, of course).

For myself, as a seminary student in the 1980's, I was fairly scruffy to be sure. I had just returned from two years as a missionary in Africa and didn't have many clothes, let alone a full wardrobe of formal attire. I had a jacket and a few shirts and ties for preaching, but was glad that I didn't have to dress up for seminary, even though I was as serious about my studies as it was possible to be. Sometimes I came to class in uniform for my blue-collar job that I was going on to that allowed my wife to stay home with our son. Do you really want to put additional burdens on people like me, when the Bible doesn't? Should we ask students from countries where suits are not conventional attire to adapt to our culture? Is that even our culture these days anyway? And I can't think of a single case of immodest attire in my 20 years of seminary teaching; is that a widespread issue in other seminaries?

I'd be curious to hear the rationale in favor of restricting people's consciences on this (I've no objection to individuals who personally wish to dress up for class because it puts them in a better frame of mind doing so). Maybe I'm missing something. Would the same rationale also apply to taking online classes?

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

@bookslover 

Richard,

From a quick search, it appears that Master's requires "dress shoes, slacks, and shirt, with a tie." So not suits and not even a jacket (a tie without a jacket is a sartorial faux pas, Congressman Jordan notwithstanding!). That is more, however, than I am aware of elsewhere. 

Our seminary does not have an explicit statement of dress like that but rather expects one to be modestly attired and students customarily wear jackets and ties when exhorting in class or chapel. Is this simply curiosity on your part or do you think that some sort of dress code like Master's should be implemented? If so, what is your rationale, particularly in light of what Iain says? 

Peace,
Alan

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## arapahoepark (Jul 25, 2022)

Are guys wearing midriffs and short shorts to seminaries now??

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

As pointed out there was no need for such dress codes in the past and I don't see what "burden" is placed upon men by requiring them today. We all need to have clothes so why not buy some chinos and some shirts? Unless you're actually suggesting men should be taking services in shorts and t-shirts then they'll need them anyway. What man doesn't have these items in his wardrobe?

They're training to be ministers of the Gospel. If they can't be bothered to dress appropriately then I would question what they think they're even doing. The fact that slovenliness has become the cultural norm today is no excuse for Christians to become slovenly. Men who cry foul against such dress codes are often the smartest attired at weddings or other such social functions (often wearing suits which are far too showy). This isn't about lack of money; it's about lack of respect to the training one is receiving and the calling one claims to have.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

arapahoepark said:


> Are guys wearing midriffs and short shorts to seminaries now??


Not at ours, Trent. This is why I asked Richard (@bookslover) what his real concern was: mere curiosity or some experience(s) that suggested to him the need for specified dress codes? 

Peace,
Alan


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

Personally I'd argue a tie and shirt, no jacket, is preferable to shirt and jacket, no tie. The latter makes a man appear as if he has spent the night in a jazz lounge and has come straight to the office/class. It's the very trendy style of today and therefore should be avoided. Smart trousers, a nice shirt, collar buttoned, and neatly tied tie is a smart look which can be achieved on a small budget.


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## kodos (Jul 25, 2022)

As one who was never a fan of suits and ties, but has in time, come to appreciate the need for more formality, my two cents is that I would support a formal dress code. There is so much informality in our society today that it would be nice to press into men the idea that we are dealing with serious business as we study the Holy Scripture, its Thrice Holy God, its Gracious Mediator, its languages, its application, its preaching, its theology, etc. 

We expect men to dress seriously to business meetings for lesser matters (and lawyers are expected to dress very seriously), so I wonder if a lot of the fluffy ministry today, is that businessmen and lawyers are expected to be more serious than our ministers. I just offer that for discussion purposes, not as a matter of 'law'.

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## Edward (Jul 25, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> The latter makes a man appear as if he has spent the night in a jazz lounge and has come straight to the office/class.


In America, dress shirt and jacket is common executive attire (or at least senior executive). Shirt and tie with no jacket is more common with lower level employees. Coat and tie is appropriate for court appearances.

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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2022)

kodos said:


> We expect men to dress seriously to business meetings for lesser matters (and lawyers are expected to dress very seriously), so I wonder if a lot of the fluffy ministry today, is that businessmen and lawyers are expected to be more serious than our ministers. I just offer that for discussion purposes, not as a matter of 'law'.


This is an important observation. I was preaching at an OPC church yesterday that shares its space with three other churches. After our service was over, the next church immediately came in and began setting up for theirs. The first thing I noticed was that everybody was wearing ultra-hipster clothes—baggy tops with skinny jeans, everything very metrosexual, etc. Sure enough, the church was charismatic—horrible and loud music, screeching singers, terrible doctrine, and worse preaching.

While I think this may be a chicken-and-egg question (i.e., which came first, the bad theology or the bad clothes?), it can hardly be disputed that a church’s attire can in general be a good indicator of its quality as a church. I know there are of course exceptions—for example, very finely-dressed legalists—but the pattern seems to hold true.

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## Phil D. (Jul 25, 2022)

Not that it has direct application, but I recall Ronald Reagan always wore a full suit, or at least a shirt and tie even when he was doing private work in the Oval Office, out of stated respect for the office he held.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

Edward said:


> In America, dress shirt and jacket is common executive attire (or at least senior executive). Shirt and tie with no jacket is more common with lower level employees. Coat and tie is appropriate for court appearances.



That is the modern style. They do it to appear more relaxed and "approachable". The extreme of this is the Silicon Valley billionaires who wear jeans and hoodies because they are overgrown children. I mean what do they care they're billionaires but it is not a spirit which the church should be emulating.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

I can appreciate what you brothers are saying about the seriousness of ministerial candidacy/pursuit and dress being in some measure concomitant to such.

Wearing a tie and jacket has never been an issue for me (there are those who figure that I wear such to mow the lawn!). BTW, if you're going to dress properly in this fashion, Alexander (@alexandermsmith), it is not indifferent whether one wears a jacket or blazer (or a suit) with a tie, even as it is sad to see someone beguiled by the myth of the "short-sleeved dress shirt" (especially with a jacket!).

All that aside, I am not sure the correct analogies are being made. If you wish to analogize properly, the correct comparison would be seminarians and law school students, not those already practicing in the legal profession (perhaps we could properly compare ministers to lawyers). I am unconvinced that those preparing for ministry must be attired as those already in the ministry or in the profession of law, or in some area of business. I think that modest attire is what's appropriate for a student, including ministerial students (though tie and jacket should be used for practice preaching and chapel).

I do agree that the seriousness of purpose and pursuit tends to be reflected in some measure in attire. @Phil D., Ronald Reagan would not remove his suit jacket when he was in the Oval Office.

Peace,
Alan

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I can appreciate what you brothers are saying about the seriousness of ministerial candidacy/pursuit and dress being in some measure concomitant to such.
> 
> Wearing a tie and jacket has never been an issue for me (there are those who figure that I wear such to mow the lawn!). BTW, if you're going to dress properly in this fashion, Alexander (@alexandermsmith), it is not indifferent whether one wears a jacket or blazer (or a suit) with a tie, even as it is sad to see someone beguiled by the myth of the "short-sleeved dress shirt" (especially with a jacket!).
> 
> ...



Certainly when preaching one should wear the full suit. Short sleeve shirt and tie worked for the NASA engineers of the 60s. But personally I've never been a fan of short sleeve shirts.

I think the difference between the seminary and law school is the Christian character of the seminary. It's not just what the men are preparing for (though that is a big part of it) but it's a self-consciously Christian environment and therefore a certain decorum whilst on campus is quite appropriate. I'm not talking about recreation but about how one is usually attired, especially in class and social functions.

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## Jake (Jul 25, 2022)

I've not been in seminary, but I think Dr. Duguid has a great point with regard to students who have multiple responsibilities during seminary. When I was in college I and many other students would frequently stop in for a class and have work the same day. If that work required a uniform it would introduce unnecessary wardrobe changes I think. Thankfully my college or my job did not have a dress code, so I didn't have to think too much about it.

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## SolaScriptura (Jul 25, 2022)

When I was at Moody Bible Institute the dress code was “business casual.” Just enough to make sure people didn’t roll out of bed and show up wearing pajamas.

At SBTS (when I attended) there was no dress code for Masters level students, but doctoral students had to wear a jacket and tie. (Mohler even had a men’s clothing store open on campus because he didnt like the slobbishness of how many students dressed.)

When I did DMin work at Erskine the Army required that we wear at least business casual while in class… and we were clearly the most professional and serious-looking people there.

I’ve been around awhile and been in lots of contexts and I will say that it is generally true that the way a person cares for their appearance provides insight into how they manage their time and energies: are they organized and self-disciplined, serious or silly-minded, etc. In our silly culture of “wear pajamas to Walmart” - many have forgotten that how we present ourselves to the world is a projection of what’s going on inside. Appearances matter: they let me know if I should take you seriously or even see you as a threat.

I’ve also seen more than a few times that there are great benefits to having a “uniform” of sorts that helps purge distractions. It helps create an environment of thoughtfulness if people present and carry themselves as composed and somewhat put together.

All that to say, I’m in favor of a basic dress code of business casual…

But then again, I’m a man who the first thing I do when I wake up is make my bed.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I think the difference between the seminary and law school is the Christian character of the seminary.


That's right, of course. That itself, of course, does not suggest biblically any particular attire (other than modesty). 

Others were making the inapposite comparison between seminarians and lawyers/businessmen, etc. How a seminarian dresses and what's required of an attorney in court are not necessarily the same thing. 

That doesn't mean, however, that some basic standards, like business casual (as Ben argues), would be appropriate. The question to me is--does the institution require such or leave it up to the students, having modesty as their guide, to dress appropriately? I've been teaching for 23+ years in seminary and have never found the "less dressy" attire of some students to mark them as less than serious and fully committed to their studies and their sense of the solemnity of the ministerial call. 

Peace,
Alan

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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2022)

Require suits and ties for seminary and later poor pastors overseas will:

1. either feel shame because they cannot afford these things and feel unworthy to pastor, 
2. mis-prioritize their money on something as dumb as a suit in tie in a poor rural region when there are greater priorities, or 
3. become prideful in their own dress over the dress of others. 
And finally, the worse is 
4th, they learn that we may easily add extrabiblical requirements for people to jump through before we will grant them power in our church structures.

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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Require suits and ties for seminary and later poor pastors overseas will:
> 
> 1. either feel shame because they cannot afford these things and feel unworthy to pastor,
> 2. mis-prioritize their money on something as dumb as a suit in tie in a poor rural region when there are greater priorities, or
> ...


You don’t wear a three-piece suit when hacking through the jungle or paddling down the river going between villages? Do you at least wear a tie?

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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2022)

Taylor said:


> You don’t wear a three-piece suit when hacking through the jungle or paddling down the river going between villages? Do you at least wear a tie?


Many pastors here are barefoot. And some preach that way. Others save up for 1 pair of shoes that they ONLY wear on Sundays to church when it would much better serve them to wear those shoes on the trail.

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## kodos (Jul 25, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> That's right, of course. That itself, of course, does not suggest biblically any particular attire (other than modesty).
> 
> Others were making the inapposite comparison between seminarians and lawyers/businessmen, etc. How a seminarian dresses and what's required of an attorney in court are not necessarily the same thing.
> 
> ...



I did not intend to make a strict comparison of seminarians to lawyers. I actually compared _ministers_ to lawyers and businessmen. I said that "businessmen and lawyers are expected to be more serious than our _ministers_". It was part of a musing that said I would support a more formal dress code for seminarians. I probably communicated that very poorly though. Not to detract from any of your points, of course.


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## kodos (Jul 25, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Require suits and ties for seminary and later poor pastors overseas will:
> 
> 1. either feel shame because they cannot afford these things and feel unworthy to pastor,
> 2. mis-prioritize their money on something as dumb as a suit in tie in a poor rural region when there are greater priorities, or
> ...



Should a missionary not learn in Seminary that his cultural context determines his manner of dress and living in the midst of a whole host of missiology training? That seems to be pretty plain in any classes I took at RPTS... I think most of us are strictly thinking about our Western ministry context.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

Jake said:


> I've not been in seminary, but I think Dr. Duguid has a great point with regard to students who have multiple responsibilities during seminary. When I was in college I and many other students would frequently stop in for a class and have work the same day. If that work required a uniform it would introduce unnecessary wardrobe changes I think. Thankfully my college or my job did not have a dress code, so I didn't have to think too much about it.



I'm sure such situations could be accommodated. That is not what is being spoken of here. We are talking about one's general attire when on campus. But I would say that many students at regular universities have jobs whilst studying but don't wear their uniforms to class.


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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Many pastors here are barefoot. And some preach that way. Others save up for 1 pair of shoes that they ONLY wear on Sundays to church when it would much better serve them to wear those shoes on the trail.


Thanks, brother. I do hope it was clear I was poking at you. Your ministry context is so difficult, and I give thanks to God he has gifted you for the task. I think your comments are helpful here.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Require suits and ties for seminary and later poor pastors overseas will:
> 
> 1. either feel shame because they cannot afford these things and feel unworthy to pastor,
> 2. mis-prioritize their money on something as dumb as a suit in tie in a poor rural region when there are greater priorities, or
> ...



What those in other parts of the world might think is not the standard by which we should conduct ourselves in our own country. As Christians we should present ourselves in a smart, tidy, modest manner. Sobriety should be considered an essential part of the Christian's character. Do any of us believe our societies have improved in recent decades? Everywhere standards are slipping. How we dress is part of that.

I would also add that all over the world we see Christians dressing smartly. Dressing smartly does not necessitate spending lots of money. But in some cultures around the world the "native" attire is a lot more elaborate than trousers and a shirt. At the end of the day the argument against smart dress often comes down just not wanting to do it. As I said above: we all have to buy clothes. There is nothing stopping us building a wardrobe of smart, sober clothing except our personal taste. And unfortunately personal taste today is being shaped by unChristian principles and influences.


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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2022)

kodos said:


> Should a missionary not learn in Seminary that his cultural context determines his manner of dress and living in the midst of a whole host of missiology training? That seems to be pretty plain in any classes I took at RPTS... I think most of us are strictly thinking about our Western ministry context.


There is no ONE Western ministry context even. The dress of West Coast upperclass suburbanites should not be made the standard when poor pastors from Appalachia and the Ozarks have been the finest servants of God that I know. 

Most seminaries severely lack any training on missions at all and want to produce cookie-cutter churches across the globe regardless of non-sinful cultural variations. I have seen poor pastors overseas struggling to purchase a suit "worthy" enough to be accepted by big city peers. Being neat and tidy and even formal may vary and we should allow such variations region by region and culture by culture.

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## Pergamum (Jul 25, 2022)

T


alexandermsmith said:


> What those in other parts of the world might think is not the standard by which we should conduct ourselves in our own country. As Christians we should present ourselves in a smart, tidy, modest manner. Sobriety should be considered an essential part of the Christian's character. Do any of us believe our societies have improved in recent decades? Everywhere standards are slipping. How we dress is part of that.
> 
> I would also add that all over the world we see Christians dressing smartly. Dressing smartly does not necessitate spending lots of money. But in some cultures around the world the "native" attire is a lot more elaborate than trousers and a shirt. At the end of the day the argument against smart dress often comes down just not wanting to do it. As I said above: we all have to buy clothes. There is nothing stopping us building a wardrobe of smart, sober clothing except our personal taste. And unfortunately personal taste today is being shaped by unChristian principles and influences.


Then a seminary should require a dress code of "smart tidy clothing" as a general rule and avoid any particular rules of a suit and a tie.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

kodos said:


> his cultural context determines his manner of dress and living


Quite right, Rom (and I appreciate your graciousness about the other points; I didn't figure you were being overly strict about the attire question).

Now to the cultural context question: I was hoping that @Pergamum might jump into the conversation and he did. Anyone expecting you and those there to adopt our conventions of dress is just out of line. Carry on, brother!

Back to our western cultural context, many of the Presbyterian churches that I preach in have downgraded worship attire in recent years, both for congregants and those leading worship/preaching. I personally always wear at least a tie and jacket regardless of how others dress. I never lecture in the classroom, in fact, with anything less than that. In a Dutch-heritage church, however, I wear a suit as a matter of course. I do in many other churches as well, but those of the Dutch tradition continue to dress more formally for worship, not only in the pulpit but also in the pew.

Peace,
Alan

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## SolaScriptura (Jul 25, 2022)

For the record, when I preach on Sunday mornings... I'd say 90% of the time I wear a suit sans tie, the other 10% of the time I remove my jacket. This despite my Session having given me permission to go as casual as business casual.


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## J.L. Allen (Jul 25, 2022)

I'm probably the last person who should comment on how to dress in seminary (Dr. @Alan D. Strange knows me well enough). I don't come from classy roots, but I find myself more and more wanting to dress nicely for church. In general, I'd like to dress myself to better reflect a care for my appearance. Not that I want to be vain and prideful, but I want to present myself in a more mature manner. My background being what it is, I tend to prefer wearing nice blue jeans (not torn or anything of the like) and a polo shirt. An outfit like that is casual and put together, in my opinion. Slacks with a button down would also be comfortable. When I'm at church, I exclusively wear attire appropriate for the pulpit. I wouldn't be opposed at all to something of dress recommendation for seminary (instead of a code that might burden others).

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 25, 2022)

It should also be noted that dressing casually doesn't necessarily mean dressing cheaply. People spend lots of money on replica football jerseys, for example, and other items of casual dress. And yet trousers and a shirt- which can be bought quite cheaply- are somehow "exclusive" and place "burdens" on people. It seems spending lots of money on clothes is fine so long as one looks like a slob whilst wearing them.

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## beloved7 (Jul 25, 2022)

Of course, but more importantly I think it’s rather important that people dress formally in church. When asserting this, the inevitable “why” is almost always asked.

The reason is as follows; in Western society it is the custom to show respect to people and/ or an event by dressing nicely. We see this in courtrooms, weddings, funerals and so forth. When we approach God in corporate worship, how much more important is it to show reverence than those other events?

I firmly believe that how we dress says a lot about how we feel about God.

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## J.L. Allen (Jul 25, 2022)

beloved7 said:


> Of course, but more importantly I think it’s rather important that people dress formally in church. When asserting this, the inevitable “why” is almost always asked.
> 
> The reason is as follows; in Western society it is the custom to show respect to people and/ or an event by dressing nicely. We see this in courtrooms, weddings, funerals and so forth. When we approach God in corporate worship, how much more important is it to show reverence than those other events?
> 
> I firmly believe that how we dress says a lot about how we feel about God.


Right. And this is universal to mankind. Even in remote parts of the world, there is still ceremonial attire setting those occasions apart.

I don't think there needs to be a one-size-fits-all approach to dressing nicely. How people dress for particular occasions will most certainly look different depending on where you are in the globe. In other words, it is appropriately customary for me to wear a suit here in the Midwestern USA. It might be appropriately customary for me to wear leather sandals, an Hawaiian shirt, and slacks elsewhere. The beautiful thing is the common denominator of it all. I want to honor Christ and set this time apart particularly to worship him in Spirit and Truth.

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## J.L. Allen (Jul 25, 2022)

Not to detract from the OP. To apply it there, for me, is to recognize the importance of my task as a seminarian. I won't hold it against any who dresses down. God forbid I do; for I would be an hypocrite. As I said, I would probably be one of those people at different times (I tend to wear shorts even when it snows). But I also see myself in state of growth (I hope) and transition.


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## beloved7 (Jul 25, 2022)

J.L. Allen said:


> Right. And this is universal to mankind. Even in remote parts of the world, there is still ceremonial attire setting those occasions apart.
> 
> I don't think there needs to be a one-size-fits-all approach to dressing nicely. How people dress for particular occasions will most certainly look different depending on where you are in the globe. In other words, it is appropriately customary for me to wear a suit here in the Midwestern USA. It might be appropriately customary for me to wear leather sandals, an Hawaiian shirt, and slacks elsewhere. The beautiful thing is the common denominator of it all. I want to honor Christ and set this time apart particularly to worship him in Spirit and Truth.


Agreed, this actually reminds me of when I was struggling with understanding 1 Corinthians 11 in regard to head coverings. I wasn’t convinced that it was just cultural, as Paul cited creation. After consulting with my Pastor, he walked me through how it was a cultural custom that portrayed a biblical truth; not unlike modern last names and wedding bands (headship and monogamy) or braziers (modesty).

Not meant to derail the thread as I know there’s different opinions on that, but my point is that dressing properly in corporate worship is a modern custom that portrays a biblical truth (reverence and fear) and thus is proper.


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## ZackF (Jul 25, 2022)

Taylor said:


> You don’t wear a three-piece suit when hacking through the jungle or paddling down the river going between villages? Do you at least wear a tie?


Tie and a loin cloth I reckon.

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## Guido's Brother (Jul 25, 2022)

Ministering in an Australian (Tasmania) context, all I can add is: what a strange discussion! Even when I was a seminary student in Canada back in the 90s, on an ordinary day most students would be wearing a nice clean pair of jeans (blue or black) and a nice clean shirt (whether a t-shirt or one with a collar). The only exception would be on days when we'd lead chapel or giving a sermon proposal. Then it would be suit and tie, or at least dress shirt, dress slacks and a tie.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2022)

beloved7 said:


> I firmly believe that how we dress says a lot about how we feel about God.


At best, it's only ever a negative indicator, that is to say, manifestly unkempt appearance may indicate a lack of reverence or due sense of God's presence. 

That one is what many here would regard as properly attired in itself means nothing. In my decades of ministry not only in the local church but in the broader church, I can assure you that the most egregious impenitents I've encountered were appropriately attired. It's not uncommon, in fact, to find an abusive or adulterous man wearing a suit. I think that this word of caution, and the reminder that God looks on the heart, needs to be remembered in this conversation. 

Let me put it this way: my greatest struggle is not dressing appropriately (since @J.L. Allen appealed to me, I'll reference him for this!), but thinking, speaking, and behaving in a godly manner at all times. For me at least, the former is easy, while the latter is the great struggle of my life. Thanks be to God that salvation is all of grace and that we seek to live righteously not so that we will earn his favor but because we already have his favor in Christ. 

Peace,
Alan

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## beloved7 (Jul 25, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> At best, it's only ever a negative indicator, that is to say, manifestly unkempt appearance may indicate a lack of reverence or due sense of God's presence.
> 
> That one is what many here would regard as properly attired in itself means nothing. In my decades of ministry not only in the local church but in the broader church, I can assure you that the most egregious impenitents I've encountered were appropriately attired. It's not uncommon, in fact, to find an abusive or adulterous man wearing a suit. I think that this word of caution, and the reminder that God looks on the heart, needs to be remembered in this conversation.
> 
> ...


Certainly I did not mean to infer that dressing properly is an attempt to earn His favor in the salvific sense. The things you listed are of course things we all must strive for, while not neglecting what I had mentioned. If we are cognizant that we are approaching the Living God, in the presence of the angelic host, we are much less likely to be wearing sweatpants, t- shirts, ball caps and so forth.


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## Jake (Jul 25, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I'm sure such situations could be accommodated. That is not what is being spoken of here. We are talking about one's general attire when on campus. But I would say that many students at regular universities have jobs whilst studying but don't wear their uniforms to class.


Sure it wasn't all the time, but I often sat beside people wearing fast food uniforms or something similar that would go to work immediately after class ended.

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## Edward (Jul 25, 2022)

kodos said:


> We expect men to dress seriously to business meetings for lesser matters (and lawyers are expected to dress very seriously)


It's probably rare these days that lawyers would wear a coat and tie except for court or an important meeting with a major client. There may be some "white shoe" law firms that still wear suits and ties in the office.


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## iainduguid (Jul 25, 2022)

beloved7 said:


> Of course, but more importantly I think it’s rather important that people dress formally in church. When asserting this, the inevitable “why” is almost always asked.
> 
> The reason is as follows; in Western society it is the custom to show respect to people and/ or an event by dressing nicely. We see this in courtrooms, weddings, funerals and so forth. When we approach God in corporate worship, how much more important is it to show reverence than those other events?
> 
> *I firmly believe that how we dress says a lot about how we feel about God.*


Exactly! The Puritans and the Anglicans argued about this in the 17th century: the Anglican argument was: "You are going to meet a king; therefore, you cannot freely compose prayers and meet in simple buildings that look like houses - you must be properly attired, and use prepared courtly language and meet in ornate buildings that are fit for a king". The Puritans response was "Yes but that king is my father, so I can come before him simply, with the words I have, in a simple building. Of course, there is a sense that both sides are right, as the Puritans well understood, but I think we're missing an important piece of the Biblical picture here, and it is strange on this Board that it is the Puritan piece! The Puritan pursuit of plainness certainly applies to how we dress for worship, along with other areas.

"Western society" is by no means one culture, even within the US. "Decent attire" is different in Jackson, Mississippi than in Oceanside, CA, which in turn are different from Sioux City, Iowa, so dress that is sensitive to culture is going to vary. And cultures do change over time: no Puritans ever dressed in suits and ties, so that cannot be the only permanent expression of proper church attendance garb. It will take wisdom for us all to dress appropriately to convey a message that doesn't get in the way of the gospel - and, as Alan pointed out, far more important than our attire is our hearts if we want to be found faithful before God.

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## Pilgrim (Jul 25, 2022)

Speaking of lawyers, there are no such standards in law schools, and there weren't a quarter century ago. Maybe one somewhere did have them. But wearing jeans to class was common where I went. I don't remember whether or not I or others wore T-shirts or if I normally wore a polo type shirt with a collar. I'm not totally sure if even all of the profs wore a coat and tie. Maybe they did.

Most lawyers only wear a coat these days when going to court. (Many never go to court.) Maybe they'll put it on when meeting with a "high powered" client who would be dressed that way. As Edward said, maybe there is some "white shoe" corporate firm somewhere (such as Wall Street?) that requires a jacket to be worn in the office, but it is not the norm in most offices. Business casual would be more typical.


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## Morgan (Jul 25, 2022)

I agree with a dress code although I have not been to seminary and I try and dress more formal at church, perhaps it will rub off on some. We have become so casual in our dress and it seems to be the norm. People would never show up to jury duty wearing what they do to church (or they would be sent home), there is more respect for a county judge than The Judge. 

I try to always wear a suit and tie when preaching, but there are times when I have not due to heat. When I was in the prison ministry we preached inside a prison with no A/C, in South Texas in the summer (where we are routinely 95-100). I have also not worn a suit coat inside elsewhere when temps were so high (due to poor A/C) that my profuse sweating would have been a great distraction to the congregation (I am not exaggerating). 

And I have to comment on that Navy officer who gave the speech at UT. His advice on making the bed every morning is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard, but since he is a SEAL people think it was profound. I guess he needed something for his speech.

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## alexanderjames (Jul 25, 2022)

"Excuse me, uh Mr John Baptist, you should really dress more appropriately around here, be better groomed, don't you think? And stop eating bugs too, we have a canteen you know."


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## Smeagol (Jul 25, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> For the record, when I preach on Sunday mornings... I'd say 90% of the time I wear a suit sans tie, the other 10% of the time I remove my jacket. This despite my Session having given me permission to go as casual as business casual.


Don’t worry about the 10% as currently, by your avatar photo, it looks like you have a full woolen jacket on your face at all times so I guess your “covered”.

P.S. I like your face jacket


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## Morgan (Jul 25, 2022)

Was his dress out of place for the day? I suppose we can go naked since Isaiah did so. Verses like Ex 20:26 give me the idea that I should have more reverence. 


alexanderjames said:


> "Excuse me, uh Mr John Baptist, you should really dress more appropriately around here, be better groomed, don't you think? And stop eating bugs too, we have a canteen you know."

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## Pilgrim (Jul 25, 2022)

Morgan said:


> I agree with a dress code although I have not been to seminary and I try and dress more formal at church, perhaps it will rub off on some. We have become so casual in our dress and it seems to be the norm. People would never show up to jury duty wearing what they do to church (or they would be sent home), there is more respect for a county judge than The Judge.
> 
> I try to always wear a suit and tie when preaching, but there are times when I have not due to heat. When I was in the prison ministry we preached inside a prison with no A/C, in South Texas in the summer (where we are routinely 95-100). I have also not worn a suit coat inside elsewhere when temps were so high (due to poor A/C) that my profuse sweating would have been a great distraction to the congregation (I am not exaggerating).
> 
> And I have to comment on that Navy officer who gave the speech at UT. His advice on making the bed every morning is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard, but since he is a SEAL people think it was profound. I guess he needed something for his speech.


Do you mean to say that people wear suits and ties and fairly formal dresses to jury duty there? (Most men probably do not own a suit these days.) Or are you saying that the situation is so degraded in the churches that people are wearing tank tops and cut off shorts and "wife beater" undershirts or whatever? (That's the kind of stuff that's banned for jury duty.) Around here, people pretty much dress the same way for church as they would for jury duty. Those who wear a coat and tie to church typically would not wear that to jury duty.


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## Morgan (Jul 25, 2022)

Pilgrim said:


> Do you mean to say that people wear suits and ties and fairly formal dresses to jury duty there? (Most men probably do not own a suit these days.) Or are you saying that the situation is so degraded in the churches that people are wearing tank tops and cut off shorts and "wife beater" undershirts or whatever? (That's the kind of stuff that's banned for jury duty.) Around here, people pretty much dress the same way for church as they would for jury duty. Those who wear a coat and tie to church typically would not wear that to jury duty.


There are stricter requirements for jury duty, no shorts, no flip flops etc (yep, and that’s common in church). No suit requirements yet though for jury duty.

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## Pilgrim (Jul 25, 2022)

Morgan said:


> There are stricter requirements for jury duty, no shorts, no flip flops etc (yep, and that’s common in church). No suit requirements yet though for jury duty.


That's not typical attire for church here (at least not in most Baptist or Reformed churches) but it may be in some of the charismatic megachurches with the "come as you are" ethos. Do people wear shorts and flip flops to your Reformed Baptist church?


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## bookslover (Jul 25, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> @bookslover
> 
> Richard,
> 
> ...



Hi, Alan: This is simply curiosity on my part. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another. I seem to remember that Talbot Seminary had a suit-and-tie dress code that may have gone back to its founding in 1952, which seems to have faded away by the late '70s. As for Master's, I'm out there on campus frequently (as a haunter of the bookstore [lots of Puritan stuff!] and library) and I see students in full suits all the time (a case of dressing more strictly than the dress code?).

This topic got started because someone posed this question in my Twitter feed. Although the question didn't get a definitive answer, there were lots of stories shared about quirks in dress and attitudes about dress among the participants. One person even shared a story about how the late Morton Smith once marked a student preacher down because he wore a red tie when he preached!

I don't like suits, myself. Yes, they look great on the right person (Cary Grant for the win!), but I just felt constricted on the rare occasions when I wore one. Plus, being fat (no getting around it), I sweat like a pig whenever I wear one. (Do pigs sweat?) I'll be 70 in less than 4 months, and I still don't know how to tie a tie!

As I said, it's just curiosity on my part. By the way, we do have one guy in our church, aside from the pastor, who regularly wears a suit to church. He is, of course, of Dutch extraction. . .


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## En Kristo (Jul 25, 2022)

I'm no historian but I always presumed that the Americans inherited the suit coat from the British. That sort of thing makes good sense in the U.K. where the weather would encourage a bit heavier clothing. It makes much less sense in the southern part of the United States where a typical summer high temperature is likely to be in the mid 90's. I have no problem with dressing so as not to offend local customs, but I do think that some consideration should be given to practical concerns, such as the cost of a suit, the normally impoverished state of seminary students, long walks to and from parking lots in the summer, and that sort of thing.

What I am adamantly opposed to is a rule such as that imposed upon me as a midshipmen in an ROTC program at the University of Minnesota. We were required to wear a Navy uniform in the dead of winter. The white cap worn as part of the dress uniform does not cover one's ears and we had midshipmen suffer frostbite walking to and from classes in temperatures down to -30 degrees. I'm all for teaching future officers how to wear a uniform, but requiring them to dress inadequately in sub-zero temperatures is patently absurd and only fosters rule-breaking, resentment, cynicism, and lack of respect for leadership. 

Perhaps because of my experience in the military, I am opposed by nature to rules. Those directly tied to the moral law of God are one thing, but those beholden to bureaucratic whims, changing social norms and so forth are another. It has been my experience that an unspoken policy that people should dress appropriately is generally sufficient and that dress codes are normally adopted as a last resort to deal with people who lack commons sense or common decency. 

Not only that, but once imposed, a dress code is just one more thing that those in leadership positions are required to enforce and, inevitably, the enforcement varies from leader to leader, from subordinate to subordinate, from day to day, from year to year, etc. The fewer the rules the better. 

I would advise establishing a culture that encourages people to dress appropriately and trust people to do the right thing. The rare person who cannot catch on or refuses to do so should be counseled on a one to one basis.

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## PaulCLawton (Jul 25, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Wearing a tie and jacket has never been an issue for me (there are those who figure that I wear such to mow the lawn!). BTW, if you're going to dress properly in this fashion, Alexander (@alexandermsmith), it is not indifferent whether one wears a jacket or blazer (or a suit) with a tie, even as it is sad to see someone beguiled by the myth of the "short-sleeved dress shirt" (especially with a jacket!).


Though I am a gentile by birth, I must come to the defense of the Dutch Reformed, for many of whom a short-sleeved shirt and tie is the standard summer uniform for worship, especially in churches that have thus far resisted the modern convenience of air conditioning.

During my first summer in a Reformed church, I was reminded of how my own impious upbringing contrasted with most of those in the congregation, when my remark about all the men "looking like Sipowicz" was met with blank stares.

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## CovenantWord (Jul 26, 2022)

Dressing appropriately for class is an act of self-discipline that expresses respect for the subject matter. It thus fosters learning in oneself and classmates and encourages the teacher (that would be me).

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 26, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> At best, it's only ever a negative indicator, that is to say, manifestly unkempt appearance may indicate a lack of reverence or due sense of God's presence.
> 
> That one is what many here would regard as properly attired in itself means nothing. In my decades of ministry not only in the local church but in the broader church, I can assure you that the most egregious impenitents I've encountered were appropriately attired. It's not uncommon, in fact, to find an abusive or adulterous man wearing a suit. I think that this word of caution, and the reminder that God looks on the heart, needs to be remembered in this conversation.
> 
> ...



Yes God looks to the heart. But as was mentioned earlier, the outside is often a reflection of the inside:

Matthew 7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Proverbs 27:19: As in water face _answereth_ to face, so the heart of man to man.

In the church today there seems to have been a severing between the heart and the external appearance of the Christian. A man is not just a soul but a soul and a body. The two are so intimately bound together that the disposition of the soul naturally affects the body and the behaviour of the body has an effect on the soul. So how we dress our bodies cannot be separated from the inclinations of the heart. We need only look around us at the vile people we see on our streets today, especially at sodomite parades, for the evidence of this. The manner in which those people dress is a manifestation of the demonic spirit within them. In the past such people may have been restrained by societal norms (or the law, remember that!) to dress in a more acceptable way. But today those restraints are no longer there and they dress in a way which most expresses what is inside them.

Dress is one indicator of a person's character. Of course hypocrites and wicked people can dress smartly. But what has that got to do with the _positive _dimension of how we present ourselves? You seem to make a distinction between how one dresses and how one speaks (you mention struggling to speak in a godly manner). Many hypocrites never swear. Should one conclude, therefore, that refraining from swearing only has a negative dimension? That there is no positive in refraining from profane language? Or that it's ok to swear because God looks on the heart? Of course not. I would hope no one on this forum would question the claim that one's language flows directly from one's heart. Why not how one dresses? One consciously chooses what clothes to put on. How can it be an indifferent matter?



iainduguid said:


> Exactly! The Puritans and the Anglicans argued about this in the 17th century: the Anglican argument was: "You are going to meet a king; therefore, you cannot freely compose prayers and meet in simple buildings that look like houses - you must be properly attired, and use prepared courtly language and meet in ornate buildings that are fit for a king". The Puritans response was "Yes but that king is my father, so I can come before him simply, with the words I have, in a simple building. Of course, there is a sense that both sides are right, as the Puritans well understood, but I think we're missing an important piece of the Biblical picture here, and it is strange on this Board that it is the Puritan piece! The Puritan pursuit of plainness certainly applies to how we dress for worship, along with other areas.
> 
> "Western society" is by no means one culture, even within the US. "Decent attire" is different in Jackson, Mississippi than in Oceanside, CA, which in turn are different from Sioux City, Iowa, so dress that is sensitive to culture is going to vary. And cultures do change over time: no Puritans ever dressed in suits and ties, so that cannot be the only permanent expression of proper church attendance garb. It will take wisdom for us all to dress appropriately to convey a message that doesn't get in the way of the gospel - and, as Alan pointed out, far more important than our attire is our hearts if we want to be found faithful before God.



You seem to be conflating smart and sober dress with ostentatious or elaborate dress, which no one who has argued for a dress code has done. Indeed casual dress is often more conspicuous than smart/formal attire. The above Anglican argument is very strange. The King (God) has appointed where we shall meet Him: in the means of grace, on the mountain of ordinances, in the assembly of the saints. God has not required us to worship Him in ornamental palaces but He has commanded us to approach Him with reverence and godly fear and to reverence His sanctuary (whatever or wherever it may be). The Puritans rejected the ornamental Anglican approach but I'm sure they were also in favour of sober and smart attire.

It must be stressed that smart/formal attire does not need to be: expensive, ornate, elaborate, made from fine materials &c. A poor man's clothes may be the worse for wear but that does not detract from his desire to dress his best when going before God. And of course it goes without saying that this is not about justifying oneself. That is such a ridiculous notion that it shouldn't even need to be mentioned (but it is often brought against those of us who argue in favour of a certain standard of dress). _Any_ work, any action, can become a snare to the Christian. If we were to avoid all things which could become such we would eschew godliness altogether. But we don't tell someone to break the seventh commandment lest his attempts to keep it lead him to believe his doing so is the ground for his justification.

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## iainduguid (Jul 26, 2022)

CovenantWord said:


> Dressing appropriately for class is an act of self-discipline that expresses respect for the subject matter. It thus fosters learning in oneself and classmates and encourages the teacher (that would be me).


This is of course true. But the question is precisely "What is appropriate attire for a seminary class?" We have had lots of opinions that make it sound as if people think seminaries are full of students with sagging trousers and offensive T-shirts, or that unless you are dressed in a coat and tie you aren't serious about your subject. Meanwhile, Alan and I - I think the only two seminary professors so far in this discussion - have both stated that in our combined forty or so years of seminary teaching we have never found this to be an issue, despite not having a dress code. It is not as if MARS, WSCAL and WTS are "unserious" seminaries, yet the students manage to show up to class faithfully, wearing a variety of appropriate attire, eager to learn. So where is the problem that we need a dress code to fix? Frankly, there are far more pressing concerns that I have for the theological and spiritual health of my students than their sins against fashion -whether contemporary fashion or the fashions of a previous time. I'd rather talk to my students about being gracious and kind to one another, and to those with whom we disagree theologically, which I see as a more pressing issue in our communities.

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## alexanderjames (Jul 26, 2022)

Morgan said:


> Was his dress out of place for the day? I suppose we can go naked since Isaiah did so. Verses like Ex 20:26 give me the idea that I should have more reverence.


I said it in jest.
But I will say to go beyond the Scriptural mandate of dressing modestly, especially in judging others in regard to what they wear, is dangerous. And I think it's been shown already that dressing in a certain way (beyond modesty) means nothing by the way of spirituality, and the Lord looks on the heart.

By all means, dress smartly. I like dressing smartly. But who are you trying to impress by mandating dress codes in seminaries? Seminarians should be godly, self-conscious, well-informed Christians. If they need a dress code, what kind of people are being let into seminaries in the first place? Is this actually an issue in seminaries?

(P.S. the idea that a trend of wearing shirt and jacket without a tie is to be avoided just because it's a trend of today is absurd to me.)

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## Pergamum (Jul 26, 2022)

Dress codes often include grooming standards in many seminaries and bible schools. I also oppose these. 

The first day I went to my 1-year of awful bible college (I could write a book on that experience), the president approached me about my beard. He said no beards allowed. So I told him he wouldn't let Jesus or Spurgeon into this school (their online program was called the Spurgeon school). 

This is ironic as this meme about Catholic schools.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Dress codes often include grooming standards in many seminaries and bible schools. I also oppose these.
> 
> The first day I went to my 1-year of awful bible college (I could write a book on that experience), the president approached me about my beard. He said no beards allowed. So I told him he wouldn't let Jesus or Spurgeon into this school (their online program was called the Spurgeon school).
> 
> ...



I think the problem here is that there were pictures of Christ on the walls.

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## Pergamum (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I think the problem here is that there were pictures of Christ on the walls.


Sure, but you missed the irony regarding the no-beard rule.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Sure, but you missed the irony regarding the no-beard rule.



I did so because it's an old, and bad joke. Institutions can set any rules they wish. It's pointless basing rules, or rejecting rules, on what Christ looked like or how He dressed because we have no pictures of Him and He lived in a different culture and time. By the same logic we _should_ be dressing as Christ (supposedly) dressed, and we _should_ have long hair &c. Of course Scripture tells us it is a shame for a man to have long hair so that's another level on which this whole argument fails. The woman who tweeted clearly didn't know her Bible.

We have principles of how to dress and we apply them within the cultures we live.


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## Andres (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> Certainly when preaching one should wear the full suit. Short sleeve shirt and tie worked for the NASA engineers of the 60s. But personally I've never been a fan of short sleeve shirts.


I've never been a fan of short sleeve with jacket either but 100+ degree temps in Texas have made me reconsider.


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Andres said:


> I've never been a fan of short sleeve with jacket either but 100+ degree temps in Texas have made me reconsider.



Short sleeve with tie is fine in my opinion but I would never wear a jacket with a short sleeve shirt. Personally I've always preferred rolling my sleeves up than wearing short sleeve shirts. But that is less formal than just short sleeves.


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## iainduguid (Jul 27, 2022)

For the record, WTS has been working on a "Community Life Statement" for a while now and it is nearing completion. It is a complex thing to create, legally and morally, to avoid binding people's consciences inappropriately but to have clearly defined standards that we can appeal too if discipline is necessary. It has taken many hours of Board and Administration time, and I think the end result will be profitable for us all. I don't recall any discussion at any point of a dress code; we were more concerned with potential sins of speech and issues of marriage and sexuality. It is broadly enough written to deal with any behavioral issues, based as it is on Scriptures and Confessional Standards of the school. I don't recall anything in those documents concerning suits and ties, but Christian liberty was important enough to the writers of the Confession that they put it in the first chapter.

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## Pergamum (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I did so because it's an old, and bad joke. Institutions can set any rules they wish. It's pointless basing rules, or rejecting rules, on what Christ looked like or how He dressed because we have no pictures of Him and He lived in a different culture and time. By the same logic we _should_ be dressing as Christ (supposedly) dressed, and we _should_ have long hair &c. Of course Scripture tells us it is a shame for a man to have long hair so that's another level on which this whole argument fails. The woman who tweeted clearly didn't know her Bible.
> 
> We have principles of how to dress and we apply them within the cultures we live.


WHAT!? None of my jokes are EVER old and bad. This a dueling offense. We will draw pistols at daybreak and settle this like men! 

Institutions have the power to set any rules they want...but they should not. And in this case, requiring a suit and tie for seminary is too rigid and too specific; a general rule for tidy-ness and formality should suffice. 

Where the bible gives liberty, we should give it as well.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> For the record, WTS has been working on a "Community Life Statement" for a while now and it is nearing completion. It is a complex thing to create, legally and morally, to avoid binding people's consciences inappropriately but to have clearly defined standards that we can appeal too if discipline is necessary. It has taken many hours of Board and Administration time, and I think the end result will be profitable for us all. I don't recall any discussion at any point of a dress code; we were more concerned with potential sins of speech and issues of marriage and sexuality. It is broadly enough written to deal with any behavioral issues, based as it is on Scriptures and Confessional Standards of the school. I don't recall anything in those documents concerning suits and ties, but Christian liberty was important enough to the writers of the Confession that they put it in the first chapter.



Where is Christian liberty in chapter one of the Confession? And are you using the modern definition of Christian liberty or the Westminster, i.e. Biblical, definition?

No-one has yet explained the difference between speech and dress. They are both manifestations of the disposition of the heart. Ideally one would not need to say much about dress because there would be general standards and it wouldn't be an issue. The same can be said for our speech. Unless this new document is going to seek to regulate _political_ speech, or seek to restrict speech by defining certain types of speech as "racist" or "prejudiced", then one would have thought there would be an implicit understanding that _profane _speech was to be avoided: at least amongst seminary students. If this is not the case then I'm very concerned. This does not fill one with confidence.

How does a seminary bind a student's conscience by requiring a dress code? A seminary is not a church. It is a voluntary institution of learning.


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> WHAT!? None of my jokes are EVER old and bad. This a dueling offense. We will draw pistols at daybreak and settle this like men!
> 
> Institutions have the power to set any rules they want...but they should not. And in this case, requiring a suit and tie for seminary is too rigid and too specific; a general rule for tidy-ness and formality should suffice.
> 
> Where the bible gives liberty, we should give it as well.



But the inevitable question is: what does a rule for "tidiness and formality" look like?

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## Pergamum (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> But the inevitable question is: what does a rule for "tidiness and formality" look like?


There is some forgivable degree of tolerance and variety based on location and ethnicity. In general we should not be policing each others' dress.

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## Jake (Jul 27, 2022)

Andres said:


> I've never been a fan of short sleeve with jacket either but 100+ degree temps in Texas have made me reconsider.


My church's current worship space will sometimes get up to 81 with the AC running during the hottest part of the summer. We're working on making it better, but short sleeve dress shirts are my go to in that environment.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> Where is Christian liberty in chapter one of the Confession?


WCF 1.6

Peace,
Alan


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## ZackF (Jul 27, 2022)

Jake said:


> My church's current worship space will sometimes get up to 81 with the AC running during the hottest part of the summer. We're working on making it better, but short sleeve dress shirts are my go to in that environment.


We just get a run at it as we say in Kansas. We also have trouble keeping up though. I have our church thermostats on my phone. Around an hour or so before fellowship I set them at 66 on really hot days and by the end of service temperatures will sometimes stil be in the 70s.


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## yeutter (Jul 27, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> ....The Puritans and the Anglicans argued about this in the 17th century: the Anglican argument was: "You are going to meet a king; therefore, you cannot freely compose prayers and meet in simple buildings that look like houses - you must be properly attired, and use prepared courtly language and meet in ornate buildings that are fit for a king". The Puritans response was "Yes but that king is my father, so I can come before him simply, with the words I have, in a simple building. Of course, there is a sense that both sides are right, as the Puritans well understood, but I think we're missing an important piece of the Biblical picture here, and it is strange on this Board that it is the Puritan piece! The Puritan pursuit of plainness certainly applies to how we dress for worship, along with other areas.
> 
> "Western society" is by no means one culture, even within the US. "Decent attire" is different in Jackson, Mississippi than in Oceanside, CA, which in turn are different from Sioux City, Iowa, so dress that is sensitive to culture is going to vary. And cultures do change over time: no Puritans ever dressed in suits and ties, so that cannot be the only permanent expression of proper church attendance garb. It will take wisdom for us all to dress appropriately to convey a message that doesn't get in the way of the gospel - and, as Alan pointed out, far more important than our attire is our hearts if we want to be found faithful before God.


Some of us have lived long enough that we remember old Reformed clergymen wearing frock coats when they preach. 
Our cultures have changed over time.
In Myanmar and Nepal, neither Baptist nor Anglican worshipers, including clerics, wear shoes in the Church. I have visited the campus of Kachin Theological College, an evangelical school or the Kachin Baptist Convention, located in Nawng Nang, Myitkyina, Kachin State in the northern part of Myanmar. The student there did not wear shoes to class. When preaching Kachin Baptists pastors, in Myanmar, wear their tribal attire, minus the sword, but including their tribal head gear. They are not shod. The attire worn by Anglican Clerics in Myanmar consists of cassock, surplice and scarf, and a clerical collar [either Roman or Genevan] They are not shod. As Dr. Ian Duguid said the pursuit of simplicity certainly applies to how we dress. Decent attire is not the same in one culture as it is in another.
Should we expect seminarians to wear the same attire they would wear if they were a pastor?
When did academic dress cease to be worn daily in Reformed seminaries? Or was academic regalia only worn at graduation ceremonies in North America? Should each reformed seminary have its own academic ensembles that are distinctive in some way to that institution?
Should Dr. Ian Duguid wear the academic regalia of Cambridge when he teaches, and should his students all wear, at a minimum, a *Geneva Gown?*

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Alan D. Strange said:


> WCF 1.6
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



I can see Christian prudence but not Christian liberty. And again which definition of Christian liberty are we using?


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

yeutter said:


> Some of us have lived long enough that we remember old Reformed clergymen wearing frock coats when they preach.
> Our cultures have changed over time.
> In Myanmar and Nepal, neither Baptist nor Anglican worshipers, including clerics, wear shoes in the Church. I have visited the campus of Kachin Theological College, an evangelical school or the Kachin Baptist Convention, located in Nawng Nang, Myitkyina, Kachin State in the northern part of Myanmar. The student there did not wear shoes to class. When preaching Kachin Baptists pastors, in Myanmar, wear their tribal attire, minus the sword, but including their tribal head gear. They are not shod. The attire worn by Anglican Clerics in Myanmar consists of cassock, surplice and scarf, and a clerical collar [either Roman or Genevan] They are not shod. As Dr. Ian Duguid said the pursuit of simplicity certainly applies to how we dress. Decent attire is not the same in one culture as it is in another.
> Should we expect seminarians to wear the same attire they would wear if they were a pastor?
> ...



I'm sorry but what does this have to do with this discussion other than to show that in different cultures the different standards of dress manifest in different ways? We're talking about seminaries in the West, where students should be expected to dress in accordance with Western norms.

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## yeutter (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I'm sorry but what does this have to do with this discussion other than to show that in different cultures the different standards of dress manifest in different ways? We're talking about seminaries in the West, where students should be expected to dress in accordance with Western norms.


I am sorry, You are right, I went somewhat off topic, and belabored the point.
The point is seminarians should dress in a culturally appropriate manner.
My question is, if we need to have dress codes, why not go back to wearing academic gowns, or Geneva Gowns?
Is this still a custom in any of the historically reformed schools in Ulster or Scotland?
Was this ever the custom in reformed seminaries in North America?


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 27, 2022)

I think it is utterly silly to leave it up to the individuals own devices to determine base level acceptability in an academic environment. 

I've been to too many ecclesial functions with people dressing and acting like complete idiots. (One time I was with a group of chaplains having dinner at Chilis and it was loud and boisterous and two of guys got up on the table (!) and were hooting and hollering like drunken frat boys... and they were sober.) I think of my many years as a student and as a professional and as a minister - being physically composed lends to being mentally composed. 

Maybe the niche schools that guys like Alan and Ian teach at are so... cerebral... that the very nature of the schools keeps all but the most focused from attending. That's great. But it ain't the norm.

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

yeutter said:


> I am sorry, You are right, I went somewhat off topic, and belabored the point.
> The point is seminarians should dress in a culturally appropriate manner.
> My question is, if we need to have dress codes, why not go back to wearing academic gowns, or Geneva Gowns?
> Is this still a custom in any of the historically reformed schools in Ulster or Scotland?
> Was this ever the custom in reformed seminaries in North America?



Sorry if I was a tad curt. I wouldn't say it's a case of _returning_ to a particular _period_ and saying "that's the standard of dress most appropriate". We should be guided by certain principles. In the West there are clearly defined standards of dress from informal to formal. Even today when dress is becoming more casual in the office it's described as casual; it's not a redefinition of formal. So I don't think we need to be wearing gowns as they did in centuries past in order to have an objective code of smart dress.

Discussions of suits and ties is actually a bit of a distraction at this point because even having a dress code- never mind what would actually be stipulated in it- seems anathema to some. This is of course a fruit of the view today that beyond the most basic requirements of modesty, dress is of no concern to the Christian. When basic Biblical requirements and distinctions of male and female dress are thrown out then that is hardly surprising.

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## kodos (Jul 27, 2022)

This thread is pretty eye-opening. 

I honestly never thought that men would rebel against a school having (its right) to mandate a dress code. Seems like this is basic submission to authority (5th commandment). Also, why are people attending schools without reading their code of conduct and dress codes before running afoul of them (unless they did not send out the dress code information ahead of time, in which case, that truly is a terrible school)? I read my orientation packet for RPTS pretty carefully. One professor said no hats in his class. The students complied. I do not recall anyone ever complaining. Is this a backlash to fundamentalism?

It seems a mark of Christian maturity and submission to things that are, as some said, fairly indifferent in places like an institution (seminaries are not a church). A _"don't tread on me"_ attitude really needs to be expunged, especially in Presbyterianism, where men say they will submit to authority but often flee church courts when they are unhappy. Perhaps this is a mark of godliness that needs to be tested in Seminary as well as our Presbyteries. I would raise my eyebrows at a man who will buck at a school's dress code. Tell me to wear a full school uniform, I would not care. My books for Seminary ended up costing far more than my suits!

BTW, the _Master's Seminary_ seems to be doing just fine with a dress code. I have a friend in the ministry who went there before transferring to RPTS and graduating with me. Say what you will about John MacArthur (and I have much to differ with him!), but the man has done well in conducting himself as a mature man of God. 

Been interesting.

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## arapahoepark (Jul 27, 2022)

yeutter said:


> a *Geneva Gown?*


Couldn't you wear anything underneath?

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## arapahoepark (Jul 27, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> I think it is utterly silly to leave it up to the individuals own devices to determine base level acceptability in an academic environment.
> 
> I've been to too many ecclesial functions with people dressing and acting like complete idiots. (One time I was with a group of chaplains having dinner at Chilis and it was loud and boisterous and two of guys got up on the table (!) and were hooting and hollering like drunken frat boys... and they were sober.) I think of my many years as a student and as a professional and as a minister - being physically composed lends to being mentally composed.
> 
> Maybe the niche schools that guys like Alan and Ian teach at are so... cerebral... that the very nature of the schools keeps all but the most focused from attending. That's great. But it ain't the norm.


Them charismatic chaplains huh?


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## Jack K (Jul 27, 2022)

Of course, a school can have a dress code if it wants one. I think the original question was, "Is it wise in the case of a seminary?" My gut reaction: Appearance masquerading as piety is a bigger danger in the ministry than is disrespectful slovenliness. So, I'd be inclined not to institute a dress code unless sloppy dress became a real problem at a particular school.

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## kodos (Jul 27, 2022)

Jack K said:


> Of course, a school can have a dress code if it wants one. I think the original question was, "Is it wise in the case of a seminary?" My gut reaction: Appearance masquerading as piety is a bigger danger in the ministry than is disrespectful slovenliness. So, I'd be inclined not to institute a dress code unless sloppy dress became a real problem at a particular school.



Why is sloppy dress a problem?


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 27, 2022)

Jack K said:


> Of course, a school can have a dress code if it wants one. I think the original question was, "Is it wise in the case of a seminary?" My gut reaction: Appearance masquerading as piety is a bigger danger in the ministry than is disrespectful slovenliness. So, I'd be inclined not to institute a dress code unless sloppy dress became a real problem at a particular school.



Is chaste speech masquerading as piety dangerous? Is faithfulness in marriage masquerading as piety dangerous? Is not stealing masquerading as piety dangerous? Should we then eschew such conduct? Why is dress singled out as the outward behaviour that it's ok to ignore due to the potential for hypocrisy? I've yet to hear someone explain why the potential for hypocrisy does not void our requirement to obey laws of behaviour but when it comes to dress suddenly hypocrisy is seen as almost an inevitability. And because of that we should avoid any requirement of dress beyond, as I said, the most basic levels of modesty (and even these are not adhered to by many in the visible church).

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 27, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> I can see Christian prudence but not Christian liberty [in WCF 1.6].


WCF 1.6 adduces the notion of Christian liberty, _inter alia_, in its statement following the colon, ending the first sentence: "unto which [the whole counsel of God as set forth in the Bible] nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men."

Peace,
Alan


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## alexanderjames (Jul 27, 2022)

Agreeing with Jack, I don’t think anyone here is rebelling against an institution having (its right) to mandate a dress code.

I find it surprising that it should even be debated whether seminaries should have a dress code as a general principle or necessity, and so the pushback seems to be against this because, well, “why?”.

But reading Ben’s post maybe answers that!..


SolaScriptura said:


> Maybe the niche schools that guys like Alan and Ian teach at are so... cerebral... that the very nature of the schools keeps all but the most focused from attending. That's great. But it ain't the norm.


However, in the case of these institutions, surely a dress code is very low down on the list of priorities!


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## Pergamum (Jul 27, 2022)

arapahoepark said:


> Couldn't you wear anything underneath?


Or.... you could wear nothing underneath!

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## CovenantWord (Jul 27, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> This is of course true. But the question is precisely "What is appropriate attire for a seminary class?" We have had lots of opinions that make it sound as if people think seminaries are full of students with sagging trousers and offensive T-shirts, or that unless you are dressed in a coat and tie you aren't serious about your subject. Meanwhile, Alan and I - I think the only two seminary professors so far in this discussion - have both stated that in our combined forty or so years of seminary teaching we have never found this to be an issue, despite not having a dress code. It is not as if MARS, WSCAL and WTS are "unserious" seminaries, yet the students manage to show up to class faithfully, wearing a variety of appropriate attire, eager to learn. So where is the problem that we need a dress code to fix? Frankly, there are far more pressing concerns that I have for the theological and spiritual health of my students than their sins against fashion -whether contemporary fashion or the fashions of a previous time. I'd rather talk to my students about being gracious and kind to one another, and to those with whom we disagree theologically, which I see as a more pressing issue in our communities.


Thank you for stating that my aphorism "is of course true." Thank you also for reminding us to pray for the difficult and important ministry of seminary professors.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 28, 2022)

In his book on fundamentalism, George Marsden relates an episode in which Moody Bible Institute president James M. Gray upbraided the faculty for removing their jackets while in their office. Evidently it wouldn't do for a student or someone else to come into the office unannounced and find the professor in such disarray. (I think this was probably around the 1900s-1910s.)

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## alexandermsmith (Jul 28, 2022)

Pilgrim said:


> In his book on fundamentalism, George Marsden relates an episode in which Moody Bible Institute president James M. Gray upbraided the faculty for removing their jackets while in their office. Evidently it wouldn't do for a student or someone else to come into the office unannounced and find the professor in such disarray. (I think this was probably around the 1900s-1910s.)



Fundamentalists got a lot right and their warnings about what was happening in society have come to pass. Personal holiness is as important as right doctrine.


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## iainduguid (Jul 28, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> Fundamentalists got a lot right and their warnings about what was happening in society have come to pass. Personal holiness is as important as right doctrine.


No one questions that personal holiness is as important as right doctrine; would that we all were much holier than we are! The question is whether specific (culturally determined) forms of dress like suit jackets are essential to personal holiness.

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## jwithnell (Jul 28, 2022)

Morgan said:


> We have become so casual in our dress and it seems to be the norm. People would never show up to jury duty wearing what they do to church (or they would be sent home), there is more respect for a county judge than The Judge.


Sadly, no. I was rather shocked at what my co-jurors wore at a recent trail. We were told not to wear flipflops and printed Ts but about three-quarters of the group saw the minimum to be the standard. I wore dressy business attire.


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 28, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> No one questions that personal holiness is as important as right doctrine; would that we all were much holier than we are! The question is whether specific (culturally determined) forms of dress like suit jackets are essential to personal holiness.



Well this is where we apply general principles. That suits and ties are culturally determined as formal dress in no ways disqualifies them from being required if there is a general principle about smartness in dress. The modern casual attitude towards dress in church is very modern indeed. For generations of Christians it was uncontroversial that one should dress with a certain degree of formality to church (and seminary, university, &c.).

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## iainduguid (Jul 28, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> Well this is where we apply general principles. That suits and ties are culturally determined as formal dress in no ways disqualifies them from being required if there is a general principle about smartness in dress. The modern casual attitude towards dress in church is very modern indeed. For generations of Christians it was uncontroversial that one should dress with a certain degree of formality to church (and seminary, university, &c.).


...and football games, and shopping, and pretty much everything else in life. Some wish to impose their interpretation of general principles on other Christians in many areas of life (beards, bedmaking, etc.); others are content to leave more to the consciences of individual believers. Every institution will have some rules and other areas where it may provide instruction but allow for more variation in practices. It seems reasonable for seminaries to make their own determination of whether there is a problem, and if there is, to proceed accordingly. Personally, I'm not convinced that requiring suits and ties would raise the personal godliness of our students and prefer to reserve my (limited) influence on their thinking to other more pertinent areas of sanctification, but I understand that you have a different opinion, and if you founded a seminary, it would look very different from the ones where I have chosen to work.

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## chothomas (Jul 28, 2022)

J.L. Allen said:


> I'm probably the last person who should comment on how to dress in seminary (Dr. @Alan D. Strange knows me well enough). I don't come from classy roots, but I find myself more and more wanting to dress nicely for church. In general, I'd like to dress myself to better reflect a care for my appearance. Not that I want to be vain and prideful, but I want to present myself in a more mature manner. My background being what it is, I tend to prefer wearing nice blue jeans (not torn or anything of the like) and a polo shirt. An outfit like that is casual and put together, in my opinion. Slacks with a button down would also be comfortable. When I'm at church, I exclusively wear attire appropriate for the pulpit. I wouldn't be opposed at all to something of dress recommendation for seminary (instead of a code that might burden others).


Most seminaries operate pretty independently, so poses some challenges. It's should be based on the leadership of each seminary. Frankly, the seminary I went to could have used some serious one-to-one talks from professors. I have seen more modesty from people at work or in my daughter's elementary school...


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## alexandermsmith (Jul 29, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> ...and football games, and shopping, and pretty much everything else in life. Some wish to impose their interpretation of general principles on other Christians in many areas of life (beards, bedmaking, etc.); others are content to leave more to the consciences of individual believers. Every institution will have some rules and other areas where it may provide instruction but allow for more variation in practices. It seems reasonable for seminaries to make their own determination of whether there is a problem, and if there is, to proceed accordingly. Personally, I'm not convinced that requiring suits and ties would raise the personal godliness of our students and prefer to reserve my (limited) influence on their thinking to other more pertinent areas of sanctification, but I understand that you have a different opinion, and if you founded a seminary, it would look very different from the ones where I have chosen to work.



Well this was the question asked at the beginning: should there be dress codes? No-one has been able to give a reason why there, categorically, should not be. And now there seems to be a consensus that a seminary should have one if it wishes to. I'm not exactly sure what we have spent all this time arguing over but the fact we have would seem to point to a deep-rooted suspicion amongst part of the church towards requiring certain outward behaviour from Christians. Requirements which a few generations ago would have been uncontroversial. Clearly a subject which generates so much discussion is not indifferent.


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## Jack K (Jul 29, 2022)

alexandermsmith said:


> No-one has been able to give a reason why there, categorically, should not be.


Saying seminaries "may" have a dress code is not the same as claiming they "should." Is it usually wise? I and others have already offered several reasons why, in the case of most seminaries folks here would admire, they probably should not have dress codes. My list:


We should treat seminary students like adults. If we're going to trust them to preach the gospel, we should at least start by treating them like they can figure out on their own how to dress appropriately.
Our culture values informality. While there may be both good and bad impulses that accompany this value, informality is not in itself a sin, and our priorities are misplaced if we act as if resisting informality equals advancing Christ's kingdom.
Being our own Christian culture, distinct from the world, actually is very important. But the key distinctives that make us truly Christlike are much deeper than outward trappings such as formal dress. I suppose implementing a code that makes students noticeably distinct in outward appearance _might_ remind some of the heart-level distinctives that actually matter. But I'm inclined to suspect the opposite would be true more often: outward appearances would feel more important than daily work on the inner man. It's better if seminary students just dress like, well, grad students, and make love for others the most obvious difference people see when they visit the seminary. Christ's disciples should be recognized by their love, not by their coats and ties.
Speaking of coats and ties on students, in our culture these would send a wrong message suggesting we are like the Mormons or some cult. Our intentions might be to communicate respect for the calling of ministry, but to many people, the practice would actually shout a false gospel of self-righteousness. People would see the coats and ties and assume our whole approach to God is to try to please him by being better than others and observing strict bodily regulations. The effect would be an anti-gospel message that makes the true gospel harder to proclaim.
I can think of little evidence in the Bible that prophets and ministers ought to dress more formally than people do in the culture around them. Priests had special dress, but that belonged to the ceremonial law. Prophets and gospel ministers seem to have dressed normally or, in a few cases, distinctively _less_ formal (Elijah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, perhaps Paul who chose to avoid looking wise and sounding eloquent). It's okay to bemoan the loss of formality within our culture. But requiring formality among ministers-in-training is to put a cultural agenda above the biblical example for ministry in which creating cultural barriers to the gospel is something we avoid, becoming all things to all people that by all means we might save some.
History matters, and there is some history within our culture of professed believers taking pride in wearing their "Sunday best" rather than coming to worship with a humble heart. Yes, there is also a current attitude of casualness about worship that can devalue the assembly of Christ's people, but we hardly fix that by implementing an external dress code that comes with its own history of pride-producing baggage.
Although informality _might_ be a sin if the heart behind it is to disrespect authority, it's hard to make a biblical case that informal dress is inherently sinful or disrespectful or that informal dress typically flows from such a heart. Rather than impose a code based on such assumptions about the heart's attitude, I would much rather teach a student to look at his own heart and at how it connects to all that he does (including how he might dress), and adjust accordingly. We should remember that fancy dress might reveal a heart-level problem too—one of pride (1 Timothy 2:9-10; James 2:2-4; 1 Peter 3:4), and that in our culture formal can feel fancy. Formality can pose a danger to our hearts just like informality might.

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