# Piper/Grudem Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood



## VaughanRSmith (Jul 18, 2007)

Is this book any good? The reviews on Amazon are mixed (unsurprisingly) between 5/5 from the complementarians to 1/5 from the liberals.

Has anybody read it? I'm considering buying it. It's an issue that I will have to come up against (unfortunately) in the next few years, and I would like the best defense I can get.

Are there better works out there defending complementarianism (aside from the scriptures of course  )?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2007)

Grudem is a good writer and a (usually!  ) fine exegete; well, he is thorough anyway. When I read Grudem's systematics I remember that section to be quite good.


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## ChristianTrader (Jul 19, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> Is this book any good? The reviews on Amazon are mixed (unsurprisingly) between 5/5 from the complementarians to 1/5 from the liberals.
> 
> Has anybody read it? I'm considering buying it. It's an issue that I will have to come up against (unfortunately) in the next few years, and I would like the best defense I can get.
> 
> Are there better works out there defending complementarianism (aside from the scriptures of course  )?



Grudem has a relatively new book out that I believe can be considered a "sequel" to this work called: Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth: An Analysis of More Than 100 Disputed Questions
http://snipurl.com/1oi1k

This work takes into account developments since "the Big Blue book".

CT


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## CalvinandHodges (Jul 19, 2007)

Greetings:

John Piper's heterodoxy concerning "Joy preceeding faith" in the ordo salutis is rather perverse. I would not recommend anything by him because of this.

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## Sydnorphyn (Jul 19, 2007)

Both books are excellent!


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## CDM (Jul 19, 2007)

*DL it for free*

DL *FREE* in .pdf:

http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bbmw.pdf

Or read it online here:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/index.html

A couple weeks ago, Piper's site had a $5.00 ALL BOOKS special and I picked up a copy.


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## heartoflesh (Jul 19, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> John Piper's heterodoxy concerning "Joy preceeding faith" in the ordo salutis is rather perverse. I would not recommend anything by him because of this.
> 
> ...




I completely disagree. I heartily recommend him.


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## VaughanRSmith (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm going to pick a copy of it up tomorrow. I've also got a copy of "Women in the Church", edited by Andreas Kostenberger, Thomas Schreiner and H. Scott Baldwin, which is supposed to be great.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> John Piper's heterodoxy concerning "Joy preceeding faith" in the ordo salutis is rather perverse. I would not recommend anything by him because of this.
> 
> ...



Who knew? Piper was a closet Arminian after all! 

I have been blessed by Piper's heavier works. He and Grudem are excellent helps on complementarianism.


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## CalvinandHodges (Jul 19, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Who knew? Piper was a closet Arminian after all!
> 
> I have been blessed by Piper's heavier works. He and Grudem are excellent helps on complementarianism.



Greetings:

Unfazed.

What was it Francis Schaeffer once said? "Heterodoxy in one generation leads to heresy in the next?"

Sorry, there are alot of better books done by men who do not hold to a heterodoxy on the same subject. I would rather sponsor them then the likes of a Piper, or a Frame or a Packer.

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## JohnOwen007 (Jul 19, 2007)

Dear CH,



CalvinandHodges said:


> What was it Francis Schaeffer once said? "Heterodoxy in one generation leads to heresy in the next?"
> 
> Sorry, there are alot of better books done by men who do not hold to a heterodoxy on the same subject. I would rather sponsor them then the likes of a Piper, or a Frame or a Packer.



It all depends on how serious the heterodoxy is. There are some issues Christians are free to disagree on. There are others they're not.

Just because someone get's a (minor?) doctrine wrong, it doesn't mean we've got nothing to learn from them.

I'm sure John Piper is a man who is way more godly than me ...

Indeed, when it comes to the women's issue, we need to carefully read *all *sides of the debate so we know how to engage the liberals properly and fairly (and with grace).

I think the Piper and Grudem volume is excellent, not least because it has so many contributors who are authorities is many different fields. Don Carson's treatment of 1 Cor. 14:33bff. is especially brilliant.

Every blessing.


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## CalvinandHodges (Jul 19, 2007)

Greetings:

Minor? That Joy preceeds faith in Justification? That before you are justified by faith you have to experience joy in God?

-CH


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## ChristianTrader (Jul 19, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Unfazed.
> 
> ...



Alright, I am interested in more books on this subject. Please inform us on these better books.

CT


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2007)

So Packer and Frame are also heterodox?


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## Archlute (Jul 19, 2007)

ChristianTrader said:


> Alright, I am interested in more books on this subject. Please inform us on these better books.
> 
> CT




Truly. I really would be surprised to find anything else out there that is equal to those works. The Grudem/Piper books are sound and thorough, and the collection edited by Kostenberger, et al, is fine as well, although from what I remeber of it, a little less engaging. If I remember correctly, I thought that Grudem and Piper were a little more clear about where they came down on the issue than was the Kostenberger volume, which seemed to focus a little too much on technical aspects of the debate than on the theology behind it. Still, it contained some helpful essays.


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## VaughanRSmith (Jul 19, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Minor? That Joy preceeds faith in Justification? That before you are justified by faith you have to experience joy in God?
> 
> -CH


I've listened to one of Piper's lectures where he talked about this (the Constantine one, if I'm not mistaken), and this was definitely not what he says. 

Agreed, it is a bit weird, but if I only take advice from people with whom I agree on everything, then I will never listen to anybody. For instance, it could be true that Greg Bahnsen agreed with Norm Shephard on justification (I don't know if this is true yet, BTW). Should then I stop listening to his works on apologetics, which I thought were great before I found that out?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> For instance, it could be true that Greg Bahnsen agreed with Norm Shephard on justification (I don't know if this is true yet, BTW). Should then I stop listening to his works on apologetics, which I thought were great before I found that out?



I have actually been told that I should stop listening to him for that and a myriad of other reasons. I ignored them.


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