# Morris Kline versus Augustine



## Ackbeet (Oct 13, 2010)

Morris (not Meredith!) Kline begins his book _Mathematics for the Nonmathematician_ this way:



> One can wisely doubt whether the study of mathematics is worth while and can find good authority to support him. As far back as about the year 400 A.D., St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo in Africa and one of the great fathers of Christianity, had this to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kline goes on to show that others around the same time deplored the study of mathematics.

Now, I respect Morris Kline greatly. He was a fantastic teacher, and a very good writer. This quote, of course, shows that he was not exactly sympathetic to Christianity. So, I'm wondering about this quote, though. How can we rescue Augustine from Kline's attacks here? Where is this quote? What is the historical context? What do Augustine's words mean? Did Augustine really have the attitude towards mathematics that Kline portrays? If so, why? 

Please consider any other relevant questions that I should be asking as asked. 

Thanks!


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## CharlieJ (Oct 13, 2010)

Behold the power of.... GOOGLE!

Cantànima: Augustine and the "mathematicians"


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## Phil D. (Oct 13, 2010)

Some suggest that in Augustine's times math was a discipline more related to the occult and metaphysical theory rather than true scientific principles - similar to the way "chemistry" (alchemy) and "astronomy" (astrology) were. This article and its links might be helpful in this regard (the author even disputes the common translation of Augustine's statement).

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

HA! I see that Charlie beat me in the draw to the same link!


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## Ackbeet (Oct 13, 2010)

Yes, as my wife is fond of saying, it does appear that Google will take over the world. 

Thanks very much for that link, both of you. It makes much more sense now. 

Phil D - would I be right in thinking that you're in the church that Brian Carpenter pastors?


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## Phil D. (Oct 13, 2010)

Ackbeet said:


> Phil D - would I be right in thinking that you're in the church that Brian Carpenter pastors?


 
Adrian, actually, no. My pastor is Art Satorius (Rapid City). Both Brian Carpenter (Sturgis) and Wes White (Spearfish) are good friends of mine though. Since we're all located within 50 miles of each other (practically nuthin' by South Dakota standards...), our three churches have regular interactions.


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## Ackbeet (Oct 13, 2010)

Ah. Well, Auf Wiedersehen. Thanks again!


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## jwright82 (Oct 13, 2010)

Actually yes in St. Augustine's time math would very much have been an occulting thing if you study the Pathgorians and neo Platonists. I'll look it up and elaborate later.


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## jwright82 (Oct 15, 2010)

For some philosophical descendents of Pythagorias, which Plato is one, philosophy was a very religious thing from a certian point of view. They were in a sense an initiatic type group, kinda like Masons are. The occultic begginings of some greek philosophers actually may have come from Egyptian occultic sources. Remember back in these times the priests served as pastor and philosopher and sometimes scientist, chemistry was begun by such occultic begginings. So maybe, and I cannot be sure at all here, that is what Augustine was talking about. If I remember correctly he gives a nice synopsis of Greek philosophy in _The City of God_. I can't find my copy because we just moved into a new place but you could look it up if you wanted. I hope this gives a possible explination for what may be going on. Mr. Kline doesn't seem, at first glance, to know what he is talking about. This sounds like Atheist propaganda to show that christians are anti-intellectual.


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