# Does Paul consider himself dwelt by the Spirit? Romans 7:14ff vs. 8:4bff



## chuckd (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm having trouble understanding the flow from Romans 7:14 - 8:11. It seems he sets himself up to conclude in Romans 8 that he is not regenerated. Of course this is not the case, but I'm really having trouble understanding the dichotomy of "we are still in the flesh and keep doing what it wants" and "the regenerated do not walk according to the flesh."

"...but I am of the flesh"
"For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."
"...the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."
"... but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

vs.

"...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, _who_ walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh..."
"For to set the mind on the flesh is death..."
"Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."


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## Randy in Tulsa (Jan 15, 2013)

I believe that the person in Romans 7:14-24 is someone - like Paul before coming to Christ, like most of his countrymen, like any of us in the church (including Paul at some point in his Christian life) who resorts to and relies on the law of "fleshly human effort" to live a godly life as required by the written, moral Law. 

This person is convinced by the Law that it is good and its requirements are just. This would include those unregenerate who are convinced and convicted by the Law, but are not converted - like those whom Jesus described as not being far from the kingdom. It also would include those regenerate who, having begun by the Spirit, are relying on human effort alone and are (or soon will be) failing miserably. The first need to learn by gracious experience that Christ alone will free them from the condemnation of the Law and make them truly alive. The second need to remember it is Christ who freed them from the condemnation of the law, and it is he alone who can save them to the end (give them life forever). 

Romans 8:1-14 describes only those who are regenerated. It also describes only those whose lives are regulated by the "law of the Spirit of Christ," rather than by the fleshly law of human effort. Thus enabled and regulated by the Spirit of Christ (by constant use of the means graciously provided by Christ), these succeed in not walking according to the flesh, which is another way of saying that they obey the moral Law of God. So can and do the Romans 8 people still sin? Sure, whenever they stop being Romans 8 people and slip back into Romans 7, resorting to and relying on fleshly human effort alone.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 15, 2013)

The true Christian eventually comes face to face with the reality of indwelling sin. There is a fundamentally transformed part of him, the essence of self, which is now returned to God, reconciled. Nothing can ever change that, which is reiterated and emphasized at the end of ch.8.

But that reality lives side by side with the reality that I have a problem with sin. I have war with my members, wherein this death still hangs around. Now, it's still "me" that's sinning, not someone or something else; and yet, it isn't the new "me." It's the dead me, the unburied corpse that's still hankering after the old lusts, still habituated to slide into sin.

The desire I have (the new me) to do what is right--always and ever--is opposed by the habits of sin, the down-trending entropic failure that is my earthbound nature, my flesh. And it is too easy to slip right back into the old ways, the old pleasures--I just keep on doing it, and that's a fact.

The rule is warfare. To do battle every day. To recognize first of all that I am in a battle. Fail to notice that, and you are going to be defeated even more. The hope is that in Christ, in the Spirit by which he indwells us, there is a "walking according to the Spirit." There is a new habit of life for the believer, one that prevails over the habits of flesh-walking. So, the believer may be encouraged that God is his strength and guide, and he is walking more and more according to an inclination in keeping with his true self, his transformed soul, regenerated by the life of God.


After I've explained this, I might ask the inquirer if, once he became a believer he thought that he would be a "righteous person" and always live for God. Did he ever think that now that God had brought him to life, and given him of the Spirit, he could now "keep the commandments?" Was there the possibility that having been saved by grace, the new believer might think that now he should "stay in by works?" That he COULD maintain fellowship with God by law-keeping, or doing more good than bad?

Facing the reality of indwelling sin crushes that expectation and hope--which is all for the best, in the final analysis. We don't need to have confidence in the flesh, even after we've been saved. We need to understand that the life of the believer is lived only through the power of God, and sanctification is still essentially God's work (the Spirit's work) in me, even if I'm joining in the effort.

I've likened our "participation" in sanctification to the little boy who wants to help mom make dinner. She says, "Sure, put your hand here and stir." And the child puts his hand on the spoon that goes round and round the pot (because mom is stirring it). When dad comes in, Junior pipes up, "Hey dad, I'm making soup!"

Of course you are, kid. I love you, and the soup "you" made. Christian, keep walking, keep holding the hand of your Father.


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## KMK (Jan 15, 2013)

chuckd said:


> Does Paul consider himself dwelt by the Spirit?



Just in case there are any hyper-preterists lurking, the answer is yes!!!!

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. 1 Cor 3:16

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you... 1 Cor 6:19

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 1 Cor 14:25


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## chuckd (Jan 16, 2013)

Contra_Mundum said:


> The hope is that in Christ, in the Spirit by which he indwells us, there is a "walking according to the Spirit." There is a new habit of life for the believer, one that prevails over the habits of flesh-walking.



Thank you for your response. Can I summarize in that the litmus test Paul is pressing on us is - "is there a new habit?" I just read Romans 8:1-11 as a 1/0, you are either dwelt or you are not. If you are not, you will follow after the flesh. If you are, you will follow after the Spirit. Then I return to Romans 7:14-25 and see in fact it was a both/and _in himself_.

In the end, I am more encourage by Romans 7 than Romans 8. In 7, I see that there is indeed a struggle & fight and I'm not the only one who fails miserably and finds no hope other than Christ. In 8, I see that there is no struggle & fight, only those who walk according to the flesh and those who walk according to the Spirit. You cannot do both so I do not want to profess the name of Christ in vain.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 16, 2013)

chuckd said:


> Can I summarize in that the litmus test Paul is pressing on us is - "is there a new habit?"


I would be wary of identifying a "litmus test" for the quality of your Christian walk. In fact, I wouldn't recommend it at all. Hmmm, are you reading your Bible enough? A chapter a day is good when you're a new Christian, but surely by now you should have gotten to five or six, right? Have you started helping little old ladies across the street? Fine, but shouldn't you be working on new habits? After all, the BoyScouts help little old ladies too...

Morality can never be a proper "litmus test;" it puts you back on a treadmill. You can never have enough confidence in your "progress" to be sure you are "making it, not faking it." And if you DO have supreme confidence, that's about the time you should probably be looking for wherever it is you're playing the hypocrite. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed, lest he fall," 1Cor.10:12.


If there's any test at all, it is this:


> Am I looking right now _away from myself_ and toward my Christ?"


If I am fixing my gaze on my Guide, Heb.12:2, then I'm sure I'm heading the right direction. It's the difference between the person who's constantly looking at his feet, to make sure he's standing up going in the right direction; and the person who has his head up looking toward his destination. One of them's bound to make it; and he will have gotten stronger and more fit in the journey. And one of them is almost sure not to, unless something drastic happens to his perspective.


I hope that eventually, ch.8 will be of utmost encouragement to you. Ch.8 is the outworking of the realization of 7:24-25. Ch.8 doesn't presuppose a different background reality than ch.7 does, or a different struggle. What ch.8 promises is a foretaste of ultimate victory in the here and now, when the Spirit has his way with us. Rom.14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and *joy in the Holy Spirit*."

Whenever you (the child) pull away from your Father's hand, trying to go your own way, you are obviously not walking according to the Spirit of the true Son. If you flounce and go limp, you aren't walking according to the Spirit of the true Son. If you wander like a sheep, you will be lost on the mountainside, until the Good Shepherd draws you back again--because if you are walking according to the Spirit, you can't get lost.

Reactions: Rejoicing 1


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 16, 2013)

I can't possibly see Romans 7:14-28 as being the thoughts of an unregenerate person.

No unregenerate person would even experience the kind of moral conflict that is expressed in that passage.

No unregenerate person would even feel sorrow and frustration at the fact that "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."


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## chuckd (Jan 16, 2013)

Contra_Mundum said:


> If there's any test at all, it is this:
> 
> 
> > Am I looking right now _away from myself_ and toward my Christ?"
> ...



Something to chew on. Thanks!


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## Cymro (Jan 17, 2013)

Does not Paul in 7:24 say "O wretched man that I am," not,"O wretched man that I was?"
Surely he is explaining the battle that is ever present in the believer's life. He shows that the victory 
is in Christ alone,not in our own strength. The key is in 8:2, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus 
hath made me free from the law of death and sin." The power, penalty and condemnation of death and sin
as a law in us and over us, is broken ,by the establishing of a superior law by the Spirit of life. Sin struggles
in our members to reassert itself,but the mind reacts ,and when we stumble we we know that we have ,because we
have the Spirit of life.


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