# Flags in the sanctuary



## larryjf (Feb 18, 2005)

The subject of flags being in our sanctuary came up at the last committee meeting. 
Since reformed theology basically says that if God does not specify something for worship, it's not proper in worship - how would you argue for or against having a flag in the sanctuary?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 18, 2005)

You might want to review this thread: 

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8358


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)

It would probably be ok if it was a "Christian" flag 

Oh, this isn't "The things you will never hear on the PB" thread is it.


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## larryjf (Feb 18, 2005)

VirginiaHuguenot,

Thanks for the link, but there were only a couple of postings there before it turned into another conversation. So any further discussion would be appreciated.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 18, 2005)

Sorry, here is another thread:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8339


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)

Larry,

To be serious here, the first question I would ask is what is the primary purpose of the sanctuary? I suspect you'd get answers that are dependent on each individual situation. We worship in the student center and don't have a sanctuary per se. And yet when we gather for worship there is only one purpose for the building and indeed for us, and at that time I don't believe it is apporpriate to have symbols that might be construed as representing devided allegiences present. Just my humble opinion.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 18, 2005)

Personally, flags in the sanctuary to me raise red flags!


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)




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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Personally, flags in the sanctuary to me raise red flags!




You have to look at why there there. My old church met in a gym. There were flags there but we couldn't do anything about it. But in a church building, they shouldn't be there at all. Honestly, I don't think there should be any decoration at all. I don't see how it contributes to facilitating worship.


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 18, 2005)

Our congregation has merged with another congregation and their building will become our new facility.

One of our young people noticed that they had a both a US and "Christian" flag in the sancturary and asked the Session if they would be staying when we start worshipping there in late May. 

Very perceptive.


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## cupotea (Feb 18, 2005)

My home church has British flags in it to honour the fact it's Scottish or something. My new church is so big that I haven't even noticed if there are flags (which means if there are, they must not be too distracting!).

Honestly, I'm just glad there isn't a gay flag in the sanctuary. Sounds like a ludicrous idea, but I saw it when I was shopping around for a church! It wasn't in the sanctuary, but over the door going in. It was like 2x3'! That's what I get for experimenting by going to a United Church.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 9, 2005)

The U.S. government has this strange penchant for never raising the flag of a state over its office buildings... so why shouldn't churches operate the same way? Just a Christian flag...


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

RPCNA churches display the Banner of the Covenant at the front of the church on the wall.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> RPCNA churches display the Banner of the Covenant at the front of the church on the wall.



Is there a Banner of the Covenant store out there on the Internet?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



No. Each congregation sews/makes their own. They're all unique.


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## Peter (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> RPCNA churches display the Banner of the Covenant at the front of the church on the wall.



In the sanctuary above the pulpit. Otherwise the church I attend is completely devoid of all ornamentation and painted white around every wall.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...


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## Peter (Sep 9, 2005)

The issue seems too insignificant to mention, but I would like to see the banner moved to a back room.

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Peter]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

Yeah, I can see your point. If God graces me to be a pastor someday, I would likely not have it displayed above the pulpit (if that's an option? I don't know much about RPCNA politics yet).


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## Peter (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm sure there's nothing forcing the congregation to keep the banner there. I always thought it was more of a tradition. I fully agree with the political message the banner symbolizes, just for worship issues I don't think we should be putting "decoration" in the sanctuary.


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## rgrove (Sep 9, 2005)

I've never been happy about it, but it seems to be the norm in Baptist churches unfortunately. In fact, the first time I visited a Baptist church with my wife (in the days before she was my wife) I complained about it. Didn't think it was appropriate then and still don't.


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## Poimen (Sep 9, 2005)

I am entirely against flags. We are all one in Christ, and that fact undermines any national or ethnic ties within the context of worship.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

I don't believe the RPCNA banner has any national or ethnic ties. It stands for the kingdom/kingship of Christ and His superiority above all other kings and kingdoms.


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## Poimen (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> I don't believe the RPCNA banner has any national or ethnic ties. It stands for the kingdom/kingship of Christ and His superiority above all other kings and kingdoms.



That's fine. I should have said "I am against all national flags." However I am not a fan of any decoration in the church since it tends to distract and lead the worshipper away from the preached word and sacraments. 

I would therefore agree with you and Peter about putting the flag/banner in the back of the sanctuary.


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## larryjf (Sep 9, 2005)

> It stands for the kingdom/kingship of Christ and His superiority above all other kings and kingdoms.


There's just something about having a flag/banner that stands for a kingdom/kingship that the King Himself didn't establish - doesn't sit well with me.

We are going to try and move our flags to the back balcony. The funny thing is, when i told the Associate Pastor what was going on he didn't want to have to look at the flags while he preached!

When the actual move comes, i'll bet we will hear alot of grief because of it.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 9, 2005)

How are flags elements of worship? That's the issue here. Circumstances are not regulated by Scripture. I don't see how a flag is on a different level than pews.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rgrove_
> I've never been happy about it, but it seems to be the norm in Baptist churches unfortunately. In fact, the first time I visited a Baptist church with my wife (in the days before she was my wife) I complained about it. Didn't think it was appropriate then and still don't.



Interesting, Ron, two Reformed Baptist churches I know of in the Seattle-Tacoma area don't have them. They don't have anything but a pulpit.

I don't like flags at a worship meeting either.

Vic


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## rgrove (Sep 10, 2005)

Agreed Vic, we're an exception to the rule with Baptists, though, it seems to me. I was was also being a little more generic in the term baptist. Go into most any Baptist church and the red, white and blue will be up front almost certainly. Just look at the "Justice Sunday" crowd. Think they wouldn't think less of us for protesting an American flag in the sanctuary?

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by rgrove]


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## larryjf (Sep 10, 2005)

> Circumstances are not regulated by Scripture. I don't see how a flag is on a different level than pews.


Pews are utilitarian in nature, flags tend to represent a loyalty to something or the authority of something.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 10, 2005)

Are crosses acceptable in worship?


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## Poimen (Sep 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by victorbravo_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by rgrove_
> ...



Vic do you Tony Paz?


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## Puritanhead (Sep 10, 2005)

One could be like one of the churches that has like several 6'x'9' American flags dangling around the pulpit and the choir room... a giant _God Bless America_ banner hanging from the ceiling, and a _Pray for our President_ banner, and perhaps a giant picture of the last or presently sitting Republican President nudged up against the stained glass of Jesus.


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## Poimen (Sep 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> One could be like one of the churches that has like several 6'x'9' American flags dangling around the pulpit and the choir room... a giant _God Bless America_ banner hanging from the ceiling, and a _Pray for our President_ banner, and perhaps a giant picture of the last or presently sitting Republican President nudged up against the stained glass of Jesus.



 and  again...


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 10, 2005)

I wonder if the "Three-Self Patriotic Movement" churches all obsequiously display the Red China banner?

When the Army-of-One Patriotic Movement stops by to see that _your_ church has its loyalty symbol properly displayed,... if your church "already has one," will you promptly remove it?

I like the Covenanter banner, but I wouldn't put it up in the Auditorium.


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## CalsFarmer (Sep 10, 2005)

Flags in the sanctuary? Disgusting, repulsive.....and WHY?????


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## Puritanhead (Sep 10, 2005)

One should see what Nazi Germany blasphemously did to _Christian_ pulpits in the official state church -- while all other faithful churches were suppressed and persecuted. One can respect Caesar without blasphemously marrying Caesar's creed to that of Christ's church and without espousing a belicose nationalist ideology in place of the Gospel.Christian Persecution in Nazi Germany


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## VictorBravo (Sep 10, 2005)

> Tony Paz?



Poimen, sorry, I don't.

Vic


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 10, 2005)

Can anyone interact with the last two posts I made?


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## Peter (Sep 11, 2005)

Larry was correct in saying the difference is that pews are a help to the preformance of the elements. and Crosses should not be allowed.


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## Poimen (Sep 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by victorbravo_
> 
> 
> > Tony Paz?
> ...



Fine. He goes to a Reformed Baptist church in Sea-Tac so I thought you might have met him.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 11, 2005)

Psa 60:4 You have set up a banner for those who fear you, that they may flee to it from the bow. Selah ESV

Psa 60:4 Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. KJV

Various readings of one passage. I have no problem with a banner in the front of a Sanctuary that reads, "For Christ's Crown and Covenant."


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## larryjf (Sep 11, 2005)

> Psa 60:4 You have set up a banner for those who fear you, that they may flee to it from the bow. Selah ESV


This Psalm is regarding the earthly nation of Israel and its people. It speaks of God leading the armies of Israel. It is not in reference to the worship of God in the temple. I don't think that when we read the whole of Psalm 60 we come away with the idea of using banners in the worship of God.

If we set up a banner for the Lord, let's set up a banner of love...

*He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. * (Son 2:4, ESV)


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