# When was Abraham justified? To what does Galatians 3 and Romans 4 point to?



## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

Hello,

Can we ascertain the timing of Abraham's justification? Was it Gen 15:6 to which Romans 4 and Gal 3 seems to point to? Or do we look at Abraham's setting out on his trek as stated in Hebrews' hall of faith? He seemed to have faith of some sort at that point? Is Gen 15:6 then a general statement to Abraham's faith or an indication of him exercising justifying faith at that specific point in time?


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## Cymro (Jan 20, 2015)

Would not Genesis 12:1-4 indicate that he had faith at that point, for it says,"the Lord HAD said
unto Abraham---so Abraham departed." Which Hebrews 11:8 corroborates, " By faith Abrams went out."


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## Pergamum (Jan 20, 2015)

Yes, I think so. But I just had a Hardshell Baptist quote Gen 15:6 (I think in an effort to prove eternal justification...not sure)...


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## KeithW (Jan 20, 2015)

I have spent a lot of times in my own studies looking into this. After all, faith and imputed righteousness should be very important to us. It really helps to start with Genesis and think it through before going elsewhere.

By "justification" you are referring to "imputed righteousness".



ESV said:


> And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.(Gen. 15:6)


But so we catch everything this passage has to say, there are some questions to answer. Is the word righteousness applied to Abraham elsewhere in Genesis to Abraham? Is his story introduced as, here is the story of a righteous man? At the end of his story is it said Abraham was a righteous man or righteous his whole life? The answers are no. Righteousness is only applied to Abraham in this verse. (This verse is then quoted in Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6; James 2:23.)

It is key to understand what is going on in this verse. 

Abraham believed the Lord - this is not about Abraham all of a sudden believing God existed, because Abraham's earlier life involved him hearing from the Lord and following Him and worshipping Him. The context is Abraham believed what the Lord said. And what was that? See the previous verse.



ESV said:


> And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." (Gen. 15:5)



It was Abraham's belief in this particular promise that was counted to him as righteousness. As Paul will point out in his commentary of this passage, there is a certain kind of belief here. Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) mentiones Gen. 15:6 here.



ESV said:


> For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Rom. 4:3)


He then goes on to explain that Abraham believed God's promise, which promise, and what is meant by "believe".



ESV said:


> That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be." He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness [fn] of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Rom. 4:16-25)


Here we have the most important definition of faith in the entire Bible, "fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised". (Rom. 4:21) We don't have "blind faith". If we know what God's promises are, and we are fully convinced that God is both _able _to keep His promises and is _faithful _to keep His promises, then we have the kind of faith Abraham had.

Hebrews 11 mentions a lot of things done as a result of faith. But does this chapter also refer to the explanation of faith from above?



ESV said:


> By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.(Heb. 11:11)





ESV said:


> These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar...(Heb. 11:13)





ESV said:


> And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,(Heb. 11:39)


These particular passages do not focus on what the people did as a result of having faith, but speak of faith as believing God's promises.

So what about Abraham offering Isaac? Isn't this him doing something?



ESV said:


> By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.(Heb. 11:17-19)


Consider that this event is still the promise of Gen. 15:5 being played out. Abraham now is persuaded that his offspring will be in number as the stars, and this promise is through Isaac.

So to answer the original question. Gen. 15:6 is not talking about faith in general but a particular kind of faith. Romans 4 provides detailed commentary on this kind of faith. And Hebrews 11 does have references to this.


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## BGF (Jan 20, 2015)

What's a Hardshell Baptist? Elaborate on Eternal Justification.

The WCF is very useful here.



> Chapter XI
> 
> Of Justification
> 
> ...



Here we see of Abraham's justification:
-it's origin: God's eternal decree,
-it's means: faith (as Jeff said above, first displayed in Gen. 12:1-4),
-it's application: again, probably at Abraham's first display of faith.

Galatians 3 and Romans 4 point to the fact that Abraham (and therefore all believers, Jew and Gentile) was justified by faith alone and not works. To use these passages to try to pinpoint the time of Abraham's justification would be to miss their main thrust.


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## KeithW (Jan 20, 2015)

(_Edit: Brett and I posted at almost the same time so we initially did not see what each other was saying..._)



BGF said:


> Galatians 3 and Romans 4 point to the fact that Abraham (and therefore all believers, Jew and Gentile) was justified by faith alone and not works. To use these passages to try to pinpoint the time of Abraham's justification would be to miss their main thrust.



There was a time in Abraham's life when he believed God existed.
There were times in Abraham's life when he received commandments from God and obeyed them.
There were times in Abraham's life when he believed God's promises.
There were times in Abraham's life when he disbelieved God's promises and acted contrary to them.
There were times in Abraham's life when he believed God's promises and obeyed God's commandments which seemed to contradict His promises.
Using the phrase "imputed as righteousness" to pinpoint in time which of Abraham's actions was counted as righteousness _is _the main point. The Scriptures quoted in my previous post are enough to show the Scriptural evidence of justification by faith without works. It is nice that the WCF confirms Scripture though.


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## BGF (Jan 20, 2015)

Keith, 

I did not have your post in mind when I wrote mine (I hadn't seen it yet). I'm a little slow this evening due to an early start and a long day, so I'm trying to process where our two posts interact. In the meantime, I'm curious about your equating "justification" with "imputed righteousness". I do not see them as the same thing. There is certainly an inseparable connection between the two terms as justification is the legal declaration made valid by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. However, interchanging the two terms could lead to some interpretive problems. Not saying that you did that here, just curious about it. Perhaps after a good rest I can follow your reasoning more clearly.


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## Jack K (Jan 20, 2015)

People sometimes forget that although we are saved at one point in time, faith is an ongoing thing and so are the blessings received by faith. So the fact that Abram believed and was credited with righteousness in chapter 15, even if the reference there is only to what was happening at that time (and I'm not sure it is), does not necessarily mean he didn't believe and enjoy those benefits earlier as well.

I'm with Cymro in that it seems from Genesis 12 and Hebrews 11 that Abram had true faith when he set out for Canaan. His faith also seems to have grown and been reaffirmed several times after that, but this is not unusual in the life of a believer and certainly does not make the earlier faith invalid.


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## KeithW (Jan 21, 2015)

Hi Brett,

Us posting at the same time makes sense. I went back to my previous post to add a note about that.



BGF said:


> In the meantime, I'm curious about your equating "justification" with "imputed righteousness". I do not see them as the same thing. There is certainly an inseparable connection between the two terms as justification is the legal declaration made valid by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. However, interchanging the two terms could lead to some interpretive problems. Not saying that you did that here, just curious about it. Perhaps after a good rest I can follow your reasoning more clearly.


Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, I am definitely not using the term justification in either its full blown Scriptural or theological sense. I started with the wording of the original post which used justification even though the references given were all for imputed righteousness. Then I was using the part of justification pertaining to being justified by faith (Rom. 3:28, 5:1; Gal. 3:24).

I find it fascinating how much can be learned about the definition of faith, kinds of faith, justification by faith, and imputed righteousness all by reading the entire life of Abraham in the book of Genesis, and then reading the New Testament commentary on his life.

I am also writing more on Abraham which will hopefully help in this thread.

Regards,
Keith


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## KeithW (Jan 21, 2015)

Jack K said:


> People sometimes forget that although we are saved at one point in time, faith is an ongoing thing and so are the blessings received by faith. So the fact that Abram believed and was credited with righteousness in chapter 15, even if the reference there is only to what was happening at that time (and I'm not sure it is), does not necessarily mean he didn't believe and enjoy those benefits earlier as well.
> 
> I'm with Cymro in that it seems from Genesis 12 and Hebrews 11 that Abram had true faith when he set out for Canaan. His faith also seems to have grown and been reaffirmed several times after that, but this is not unusual in the life of a believer and certainly does not make the earlier faith invalid.


I think the inspired word of Paul will help with this.



ESV said:


> What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (Rom. 4:1-4)


While Paul was just talking about the law of works at the end of chapter 3, he is definitely not talking about the Mosaic law here because that would not come until 400 years later (Gal. 3:17). He is talking about the works Abraham was performing, and Abraham did many things being obedient to God's commands. He did those works by faith. Yet verse 2 says none of those things justified Abraham. And verse 3 quotes a specific verse in the life of Abraham about imputed righteousness, which did not refer to a work but a belief. And not just any kind of belief but a specific kind explaned here.



ESV said:


> And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Rom. 4:21)


What about "by faith Abraham" was obedient in Hebrews 11?



ESV said:


> By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Heb. 11:8)


Since "faith" is imputed as righteousness, and here Abraham obeyed by faith, does not this event count as imputed righteousness? The commentary in Romans 4 made a distinguishment between works Abraham did which did not justify him, and the one event in his life which was labelled as imputed righteousness. So it appears this work resulting from faith was not imputed as righteousness. Scripture speaks many places of faith must produce obedience, but the context of this verse is not of justification or imputed righteousness, which was the point in the original post.

What Abraham's obedience in offering his son Isaac in Heb. 11?



ESV said:


> By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. (Heb. 11:17-19)


This needs to be kept in the content of the whole story which I briefly mentioned in my first post. The context here is the promise God made to Abraham in Gen. 15:5. After Sarah and Abraham did not believe God regarding this promise, Abraham fathered Ishmael. God's response to this was, 



ESV said:


> God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. (Gen. 17:19)


This is what Heb. 11:18 is referring to. God's promise in Gen. 15:5 is still being played out in this part of Abraham's life.

The only difficulty here would come if Gen. 15:6 is taken out of the context of Gen. 15:5. Since most English translations start Gen. 15:6 with word "and" or "then" it appears these two verses are supposed to go together.


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## Ben_Ives (Jan 21, 2015)

Abraham was already justified when the Lord tested him, and on proving himself to be faithful, the Lord declared him to be justified.

The doctrine of Justification by, James Buchanan is a great book on this topic


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