# Reforming a church



## Notthemama1984 (Dec 17, 2010)

If you were to preach in a non-reformed setting, which "reformed" doctrines would you consider a high priority of teaching and which would you consider a lower priority? That is to say, which doctrines would you teach deeply on immediately and which would you gloss over until the church became more grounded in the reformed way of thinking.

List your top five in order of importance.

I ask because I am preaching in a solidly conservative non-reformed church and have thought about this. I have my list, but am curious what yours would be.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 17, 2010)

I wouldn't preach 'doctrines' or 'principles'. I would faithfully preach the Scriptures in a systematic, sequential, expository manner. The right and proper understanding of doctrine will flow from that. I also would stay away from theological buzzwords. Just use Scriptural terms.

I've done it. It works.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 17, 2010)

I am assuming when you say "systematic" you are not thinking in terms of systematic theology, but something else?


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## Wayne (Dec 17, 2010)

Like Lawrence said, avoid theological terms and stick with Biblical language. That's your first step.

As to what doctrine, without a doubt, preach on the sovereignty of God. Don't bother with anything else. Everything else flows from that doctrine.
Select an appropriate text and preach it.


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## Reformed Roman (Dec 17, 2010)

I am loving this thread. I clearly don't feel ready to pastor a church. I also am not even ready to get into preaching again. But it would be great to know what people think about "reforming a church".

At one point in my life I was interviewed for a youth pastor position. The church wasn't reformed. When asked about the 5 points of Calvinism, I stumbled around a little. At the point I was a 4 point calvanist. I choked under the pressure and said I was a "3.5 point" calvanist. I was saying that I was a little "shaky" on irresistible grace. It was a doctrine I struggled with, definitely not something I was really shaky on though. 

I wasn't trying to deceive them to get the position, but when they asked authors that I liked, I tried to name some non reformed guys I read also. Stuff like that. Hoping I could (by God's grace) get the position and help reform the church.

I was also asked to pastor a small church down here. I rejected it (mostly because of my struggles). I pondered the thought for a long time, if it's a good idea to pastor a non reformed congregation. If it's okay, should I flat out tell them "I'm reformed". Or should I just let them find out when I get there and try to help reform them with expository preaching and scripture?

So I had a lot of questions regarding reforming a church. Though I'm not in the position to put this stuff into practice yet, I'm really looking forward to what people have to say.


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## seajayrice (Dec 17, 2010)

Wayne said:


> Like Lawrence said, avoid theological terms and stick with Biblical language. That's your first step.
> 
> As to what doctrine, without a doubt, *preach on the sovereignty of God.* Don't bother with anything else. Everything else flows from that doctrine.
> Select an appropriate text and preach it.


 
 As illustrated by the gospel.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 17, 2010)

> I pondered the thought for a long time, if it's a good idea to pastor a non reformed congregation. If it's okay, should I flat out tell them "I'm reformed". Or should I just let them find out when I get there and try to help reform them with expository preaching and scripture?



In my case, I was merely asking around for an opportunity to preach when a small SBC church contacted me. They thought I did a good job and have asked me to continue coming. I have never hid that I presbyterian and am seeking to move my ordination to the EPC. They understand this and are ok with this. 

I would never advocate hiding your intentions or what you really believe in. If you are shaky on a topic, let them know you are. Tell them that you see two different sides and are personally studying to find the right side. That shows integrity and goes a long way for a lot of people.


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## Herald (Dec 17, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> I wouldn't preach 'doctrines' or 'principles'. I would faithfully preach the Scriptures in a systematic, sequential, expository manner. The right and proper understanding of doctrine will flow from that. I also would stay away from theological buzzwords. Just use Scriptural terms.
> 
> I've done it. It works.



Lawrence, amen! Preach the scriptures faithfully.


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## Reformed Roman (Dec 17, 2010)

Right. At the time I was shaky and I made a mistake. I sorta made it seem like I was a little closer to them then I was. But a longer conversation would have fixed that.

That's actually pretty great. Glad to hear of the opportunity God has brought for you.


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 17, 2010)

I would do the same thing that was done in the Reformation: 

1. Biblical View of Salvation
2. Biblical View of Worship
3. Biblical View of Church Government

Romans; I Corinthians; Acts.


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## dudley (Dec 17, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> I wouldn't preach 'doctrines' or 'principles'. I would faithfully preach the Scriptures in a systematic, sequential, expository manner. The right and proper understanding of doctrine will flow from that. I also would stay away from theological buzzwords. Just use Scriptural terms.
> 
> I've done it. It works.



I would agree with Lawrence here in his advice. However I would like to add that if they are non reformed but solidly conservative they must believe the 5 solas of the Protestant reformation. I believe all of us who are Protestants believe in the 5 solas . I think it is good common ground to start in reaching the non reformed and introducing them subtly to what we Reformed Protestant believe and the reformed theology. 

I would open with a statement regarding the 5 solas. It is through scripture alone and the reading Gospels that all final authority rests. I would say that we know as Protestants that it is by the grace of God alone and by faith alone in Christ alone that we are saved I would emphasize scripturally that all we do is for the greater glory of God alone,

I would then perhaps go to Paul .The apostle Paul is abundant in teaching, that "we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law." (Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:8; 3:11; 3:24) 

You might mention that Jesus Christ Himself calls men to repentance and faith (Luke 10:16; Acts 17:30; Eph. 4:21) 

You might also point out that by our faith in Christ alone as protestants we believe we are justified before God apart from works (Rom. 3:24; 8:33, 34; Gal. 2:16).

The apostle Paul is abundant in teaching, that "we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law." (Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:8; 3:11; 3:24)


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## Reformed Roman (Dec 17, 2010)

I like the idea of Romans, 1st Corinthians, and Acts. Good, expository idea.


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## Skyler (Dec 17, 2010)

Question.

Is it considered a Bad Idea to occasionally refer to yourself a "Puritan Ninja" if you're trying to reform a church from the inside out?


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## Marrow Man (Dec 17, 2010)

WRT reforming a church, some words of wisdom mentioned to me by Terry Johnson just last Sunday (we visited Independent Pres in Savannah while I was on vacation) -- he told me that when Ulrich Zwingli was reforming the church in Zurich, it took him _seven years_ before he switched from Latin to German in the services. What a lesson in patience that was!


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 17, 2010)

Marrow Man said:


> WRT reforming a church, some words of wisdom mentioned to me by Terry Johnson just last Sunday (we visited Independent Pres in Savannah while I was on vacation) -- he told me that when Ulrich Zwingli was reforming the church in Zurich, it took him _seven years_ before he switched from Latin to German in the services. What a lesson in patience that was!


 
Have you switched from English to Appalachian yet, Tim? :LOL:


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## KMK (Dec 17, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> I wouldn't preach 'doctrines' or 'principles'. I would faithfully preach the Scriptures in a systematic, sequential, expository manner. The right and proper understanding of doctrine will flow from that. I also would stay away from theological buzzwords. Just use Scriptural terms.
> 
> I've done it. It works.


 
Exactly. Just exegete the text and His sheep will hear His voice.


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## Marrow Man (Dec 17, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> Have you switched from English to Appalachian yet, Tim? :LOL:





Actually, they only speak that in eastern KY (though they say Appa-LAY-chan on this side of the mountains rather than the proper Appa-LATCH-an on the other side  ). Louisville is essentially a Midwestern city. In fact, the rest of the state refers to it as a city in Indiana.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Dec 18, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> I wouldn't preach 'doctrines' or 'principles'. I would faithfully preach the Scriptures in a systematic, sequential, expository manner. The right and proper understanding of doctrine will flow from that. I also would stay away from theological buzzwords. Just use Scriptural terms.
> 
> I've done it. It works.


Amen!

AMR


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## Romans922 (Dec 18, 2010)

Zach, 

I am by no means the most experienced Pastor on the PB, but I have to say this. Preaching isn't something that you become ready to get into or get ready to get into again. Preaching is a lifestyle, in other words it flows out of your life. 

For this particular thread, I have to think of your interview you talk about. The interview for the youth pastor position, despite not wanting to be deceptive, it seems like you were. You were trying to sound non-reformed so they would hire you so you could 'be reformed' and reform the Church. That to me is deceptive whether it was your intention or not. 

An example from my own life. I am currently seeking a call to a church and there are plenty of non-reformed churches in the PCA. I'm not too particular about where I go in the PCA because I know most of them need reformation. Plenty that don't follow RPW or are congregational in its polity or just plainly don't adhere or follow the Westminster Standards (which they are supposed to). So there is the temptation always to want to seem like a BR (Barely Reformed) guy when really I am a TR (Truly Reformed) guy. The temptation is there when I am seeking the 'youth pastor' position to which I believe is contrary to Scripture, but I counter it with a Biblically based philosophy of family ministry. I don't fall for the temptation, but live according to the Scriptures. Most churches just say no to me on that point alone (wanting a family ministry instead of youth and fun activities). As I am looking for Senior Pastor positions, I am tempted to sound broad and act like a Moderate, but I have to be me. I am Reformed, I have no exceptions to the confession, I sing Psalms. There are lots of churches who will stop me on the second point and just say no. It doesn't matter on my end because here is the gist of it, if the people are going to be reformed, they have to want to believe what the Scriptures teach. AND if God wants a man in a particular church in a particular position, no matter how unqualified he is in the people's mind even if he is 'Reformed' that man is going to be there. 

*Stepping off soapbox...


As to the specific question and OP, it comes down to this. PREACH THE WORD. PREACH THE WORD so that people fall in love with it and with God and not themselves. PREACH THE WORD.



Zach Rohman said:


> I am loving this thread. I clearly don't feel ready to pastor a church. I also am not even ready to get into preaching again. But it would be great to know what people think about "reforming a church".
> 
> At one point in my life I was interviewed for a youth pastor position. The church wasn't reformed. When asked about the 5 points of Calvinism, I stumbled around a little. At the point I was a 4 point calvanist. I choked under the pressure and said I was a "3.5 point" calvanist. I was saying that I was a little "shaky" on irresistible grace. It was a doctrine I struggled with, definitely not something I was really shaky on though.
> 
> ...


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## Reformed Roman (Dec 18, 2010)

I messaged you about it brother Andrew. But I was a 4 point calvanist back then, it wasn't too deceptive, though I admit, I was a bit deceptive in the way I handled it. It was a lot of pressure on me at a young age and I made a mistake in it. 

I agree with your post brother. Completely, the message should clear up any issues. I just didn't want to get this topic off track.


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## Iconoclast (Dec 18, 2010)

The scriptures as Gods word,
The fall with Adam being a dead sinner, not just wounded and needing just a little help.The sinfulness of sin.
Gods eternal plan, His covenant, progressively revealed, and made known to the church
Jesus as the True Imagebearer, Magnifying the Holy law of God, and making available to the sheep a perfect righteousness.
Jesus as the New Exodus
Jesus our surety
Jesus current rule as Prophet ,Priest, and King
Jesus return on the last day


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## LawrenceU (Dec 18, 2010)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I am assuming when you say "systematic" you are not thinking in terms of systematic theology, but something else?



No, not exactly. Rather teaching through books in a manner that allows you to lay down essential truths in a logical manner. As one brother mentioned you could start with Romans. When I was asked to serve in a non-Reformed church (actually it was an Assembly of God congregation) the first book that I preached through was Job. Then we moved through John, Ephesians and so on.

Preaching through Job may seem rather odd for a first book. In my opinion no other book so clearly displays the sovereignty of God. Given what the congregation had just experienced and suffered it was a great blessing to them.


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## jogri17 (Dec 18, 2010)

I would not start doctrinal or topical preaching. I would start preaching through the Gospel of John, divide it up by chapters (with a couple of times make one chapter into 2-3 sermons) and that is good for the first year. New congregation means you got to earn your cred. 

But keep off the hard subjects at first unless there is a huge huge problem.


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## Edward (Dec 18, 2010)

I'd urge going slow - very slow. If you try to 'fix' everything as soon as you get there, you are going to either blow up the church or get run out of town. Approach it as a 20 year project. If they are doing things that you can't tolerate while you teach them, decline the 'call'. 

Pick a book, preach through it, and deal with the doctrines* at the level of the congregation* as you get to them.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 18, 2010)

Edward said:


> I'd urge going slow - very slow. If you try to 'fix' everything as soon as you get there, you are going to either blow up the church or get run out of town. Approach it as a 20 year project. If they are doing things that you can't tolerate while you teach them, decline the 'call'.
> 
> Pick a book, preach through it, and deal with the doctrines* at the level of the congregation* as you get to them.



Yep.


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## Jack K (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm a Presbyterian who now and then preaches to non-reformed Baptists.

Everything Lawrence has said is exactly right. Don't come in looking like you have an agenda to reform the church. Instead, respect your brothers and have as your agenda preaching the Word faithfully and proclaiming the gospel as you work your way through the Scriptures. Then these Baptists, who likely have a "no creed but the Bible" attitude (not so bad, really—one could do much worse), will actually listen to you and reformation of the church will simply follow.

Make much of Christ and the sufficiency of his work. Make much of God's soveriegnty and unfailing love. Few will argue with these, and they are foundational to everything that follows.


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## Hippo (Dec 18, 2010)

At the most basic level a clear and repeated statement of the gospel is surprisingly rare in some churches. The gospel (i.e. the effect of sin on man and the gift of being able to stand before God through the imputed rightiousness of Christ) is not understood by many who are so convinced that it is all about what they can do to reconcile themselves to God, this then leads to the finished work of Christ which can only lead to a sound Christ centered theology.


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## darrellmaurina (Dec 20, 2010)

I have no wisdom on the specific issue you raise beyond what has already been said.

I would, however, like to point out a broader issue.

Since you're a chaplain in training, this is going to be a major issue in the military chaplaincy for someone who usually cannot count on having even a de facto (let alone de jure) eldership of confessionally sound men to support one's teaching and preaching. The Army is very evangelical-friendly compared to the Navy chaplaincy, and Army chaplains aren't facing the pressure of the lawsuit against the Air Force Academy's evangelical practices in Colorado Springs, but the Army being evangelical-friendly does not always mean friendly toward the Reformed faith.

I've seen Reformed men in the Army chaplaincy who nobody would have known were Reformed except when in Reformed pulpits. I've also seen others who deliberately sought out opportunities to be explicitly Reformed and to be treated as a minority faith group under existing Army regulations, but even the latter had to lead "collective Protestant" (i.e., mainline lowest-common-denominator) or "gospel cogregation" (i.e., evangelical) services at least occasionally. And in a combat, forward-deployed, training, or other non-garrison environment, denominational labels, except maybe for Roman Catholic, mainline Protestant, or evangelical Protestant, mean very little. 

Our Reformed chaplains face issues that most of our Reformed pastors of explicitly Reformed congregations never face, and they need our prayers for wisdom.



Chaplainintraining said:


> If you were to preach in a non-reformed setting, which "reformed" doctrines would you consider a high priority of teaching and which would you consider a lower priority? That is to say, which doctrines would you teach deeply on immediately and which would you gloss over until the church became more grounded in the reformed way of thinking.
> 
> List your top five in order of importance.
> 
> I ask because I am preaching in a solidly conservative non-reformed church and have thought about this. I have my list, but am curious what yours would be.


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