# Is Perfection Possible? A Debate between a Reformed Baptist Pastor and a Methodist Bishop



## puritanpilgrim (Tuesday at 4:15 PM)

I had a chance to debate a local Methodist Bishop on the topic of perfectionism. I wanted to share it with all who may have an interest. This was my first debate.




Here is some background on the debate:


Is Perfection Possible? The Debate in Reformed and Wesleyan Theology Methodist Bishop, Dr. Scott Jones dialogues with Reformed Baptist pastor Aaron Wright. The question is one that divides some of the Reformation traditions: "Is perfection possible?" John Wesley would ultimately go further than, say, John Calvin or Luther in saying that, in a sense, perfect holiness was possible. But was he right? We do a bit of a deep dive to really focus on the kinds of issues the Reformation was all about.

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## John The Baptist (Tuesday at 6:02 PM)

puritanpilgrim said:


> I had a chance to debate a local Methodist Bishop on the topic of perfectionism. I wanted to share it with all who may have an interest. This was my first debate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interested in this! I come from a Wesleyan background (Church of the Nazarene) and one of the things which drove me away faster than I could run (after my true conversion) was entire sanctification. I will be listening at some point!

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Tuesday at 10:01 PM)

I listened to part of it. You are very systematic, organized and gifted at speaking. He seemed like a pretty nice guy. He had some pretty good things to say, from what I heard. But of course I favor the reformed view.

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## puritanpilgrim (Tuesday at 10:10 PM)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I listened to part of it. You are very systematic, organized and gifted at speaking. He seemed like a pretty nice guy. He had some pretty good things to say, from what I heard. But of course I favor the reformed view.


Thanks Ryan


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## puritanpilgrim (Tuesday at 10:10 PM)

John The Baptist said:


> Very interested in this! I come from a Wesleyan background (Church of the Nazarene) and one of the things which drove me away faster than I could run (after my true conversion) was entire sanctification. I will be listening at some point!


That's great to hear


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## Anti-Babylon (Wednesday at 8:25 AM)

John The Baptist said:


> Very interested in this! I come from a Wesleyan background (Church of the Nazarene) and one of the things which drove me away faster than I could run (after my true conversion) was entire sanctification. I will be listening at some point!



My grandfather was ordained in the Church of the Nazarene. He struggled with entire sanctification and he drove my grandmother away. She ran to the Antinomian charismatic Pentecostals and that was my unfortunate heretical upbringing. Praise God for His grace!

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## puritanpilgrim (Wednesday at 11:09 AM)

Anti-Babylon said:


> My grandfather was ordained in the Church of the Nazarene. He struggled with entire sanctification and he drove my grandmother away. She ran to the Antinomian charismatic Pentecostals and that was my unfortunate heretical upbringing. Praise God for His grace!


It is doctrine that is distraction to the Christian walk. It's man-centered and it dances between antinomianism and legalism.

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## John The Baptist (Wednesday at 1:59 PM)

As a follow up, you say a Christian is able to not sin. Does that mean they can fulfill the law (through the work of the Holy Spirit), or that God accepts our imperfect works on the basis of our justification in Christ?

How does this work? Any recommended resources?


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## Santos (Wednesday at 3:38 PM)

puritanpilgrim said:


> It is doctrine that is distraction to the Christian walk. It's man-centered and it dances between antinomianism and legalism.


In my experience, that is not the only type of dancing going on.


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## puritanpilgrim (Wednesday at 9:50 PM)

John The Baptist said:


> As a follow up, you say a Christian is able to not sin. Does that mean they can fulfill the law (through the work of the Holy Spirit), or that God accepts our imperfect works on the basis of our justification in Christ?
> 
> How does this work? Any recommended resources?




I would say that prior to conversion we do nothing good and are unrighteous. (Romans 3). However, once we are born again we are able to walk in obedience to the law because we are regenerate and are indwell by the Holy Sprit. Ephesian 2:10 state:

*"*For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The good works that we do are consistent with the law of God.

Romans, Ephesians and 1 John all deal with these concepts.

Justification has to do with our legal standing before God. Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God and he kept the law on our behalf. Through Christ, God sees us as a people who are not guilty of breaking the the law and also a people who receive the reward of perfectly keeping the law. However, that is not God seeing our actions, but seeing the actions of Jesus and having them credited to our account.


Here's a great sermon series on the book of Romans that might be helpful: 




This is a great book on the subject: https://store.gracefamilybaptist.net/products/a-treatise-on-the-law-and-gospel

It's probably one of the best on the subject. 

This is a lighter read on the subject: https://store.gracefamilybaptist.net/products/the-law-and-the-gospel?_pos=2&_sid=aa9bbfbf2&_ss=r

And this one is helpful as well: https://store.gracefamilybaptist.net/products/the-whole-Christ?_pos=3&_sid=aa9bbfbf2&_ss=r

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## PuritanCovenanter (Wednesday at 10:34 PM)

I am very familiar with the Holiness Movement. 
I am very familiar with Nazarenes. My Dad's first Church was Nazarene. I have sang in Nazarene Churches. I love Southern Gospel. Anyways, Some have downgraded the old entire sanctification idea to a more reasonable anointing. Mistakes are not sin in the mind of some. That leads to a whole different level of denial concerning the holiness of God. 
Anyways I have found Bavinck to be refreshing when it comes to law and Gospel. Salvation and Sanctification may be spoken of in the same breath as justification and salvation can be. The problem is that these terms are not always synonymous. There are distinctions that are to be made here. Our relationship to the Law is another issue. I find Bavinck very enlightening on some these issues. 


Read Bavinck... 

Bavinck on Law and Gospel. 
...The Reformed, however, have thought about this in an entirely different way. The usus politicus and the usus paedagogicus of the law became necessary only accidentally because of sin; even with these uses aside, the most important usus remains, the usus didacticus or normativus. After all, the law is an expression of God’s being. As a human being Christ was subject to the law for Himself. Before the fall Adam had the law written upon his heart. With the believer it is again written upon the tablets of his heart by the Holy Spirit. And all those in heaven will walk according to the law of the Lord.

*The Gospel is temporary, but the law is eternal and is restored precisely through the Gospel. *_Freedom from the law consists, then, not in the fact that the Christian has nothing more to do with the law, but lies in the fact that the law demands nothing more from the Christian as a condition of salvation. The law can no longer judge and condemn him. Instead he delights in the law of God according to the inner man and yearns for it day and night.


Therefore, that law must always be preached to the congregation in connection with the Gospel. Law and Gospel, the whole Word, the full counsel of God, is the content of preaching. Among Reformed people, therefore, the law occupies a much larger place than in the teaching of sin, since it is also part of the teaching of gratitude. _

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