# KJV versus NAS



## moral necessity (Jan 8, 2012)

Today's message was Romans 5:1-5. Verse 3,4 was preached from the NAS, which says,

"And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;" 


Following along in the KJV, I was reading: 

"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:"


My frustrations with the newer translations finally led me back to the KJV last year. Could this be another instance of that? Doesn't the word "proven character" come across much different than the word "experience" does when reading the passage?

Blessings!


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## rbcbob (Jan 8, 2012)

moral necessity said:


> Today's message was Romans 5:1-5. Verse 3,4 was preached from the NAS, which says,
> 
> "And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;"
> 
> ...



Here is the Greek word and it's NT uses:

δοκιμή, δοκιμῆς, ἡ (dokimos]

1. in an active sense, a proving, trial: θλίψεως, through affliction, 2 Cor. 8:2.

2. approvedness, tried character: Rom. 5:4; 2 Cor. 2:9; Phil. 2:22; τῆς διακονίας, exhibited in the contribution, 2 Cor. 9:13.

3. "a proof (objectively], a specimen of (Dioscorides (100 A. D.?) 4, 186 (183); occasionally in ecclesiastical writings.)* 

Rom. 5:4
2 Co. 2:9
2 Co. 8:2
2 Co. 9:13
2 Co. 13:3
Phil. 2:22


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## moral necessity (Jan 8, 2012)

Thanks, Bob! Sounds at first like the NAS fits better, yet, when I read Calvin, I get this:

"James, adopting a similar gradation, seems to follow a different order; for he says, that patience proceeds from probation: but the different meaning of the word is what will reconcile both. Paul takes "probation" for the experience which the faithful have of the sure protection of God, when relying on his aid they overcome all difficulties, even when they experience, whilst in patiently enduring they stand firm, how much avails the power of the Lord, which he has promised to be always present with his people. James takes the same word for tribulation itself, according to the common usage of Scripture; for by these God proves and tries his servants: and they are often called trials*"
* - Footnote - The word in James is dokimion, while here it is dokime. The first means a test, or the act of testing - trial; and the second, the result of testing - experience, and is rendered in our version "proof," II Cor.2:9 - "experiment," II Cor.8:2, "trial," which ought to be experience. Beza says, that the first bears to the second a similar relation as cause bears to effect: the one thing is testing or probation, and the other is the experience that is thereby gained. The word is rendered here, not very intelligibly, "approbation," both by Macknight and Stuart; but more correctly, "experience," by Beza and Doddridge. - Ed.

Calvin goes on: "According then to the present passage, we then only make advances in patience as we ought, when we regard it as having been continued to us by God's power, and thus entertain hope as to the future, that God's favour, which has ever succoured us in our necessities, will never be wanting to us. Hence he subjoins, that from probation arisses hope; for ungrateful we should be for benefits received, except the recollection of them confirms our hope as to what is to come."


So, doesn't it seems like the only way it could be referring to "proven character" is if it were speaking of God's character, and not our own? (This question is not directed specifically towards you, Bob, but to anyone desiring to respond).

Blessings!


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## Pilgrim (Jan 9, 2012)

I am not sure that there is necessarily as big of a disagreement between "experience" and "proven character" here as might be imagined. What Bob posted seems to bear this out.


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## rbcbob (Jan 9, 2012)

Not sure if the following helps any but is was what I had at hand on short notice.

δοκιμή, ῆς, ἡ (1) as having the quality of having stood the test mature or approved character (RO 5.4) [Friberg’s Lexicon]

δοκιμή, ῆς, ἡ lit. ‘the quality of being approved,’ hence character Ro 5:4 [Gingrich Lexicom]
Lenski in his commentary on Rom 5:4 says of it “tried condition”* δοκιμή* We speak of a tried soldier or a thing that has been put to the proof. There is a good sense in the word: a condition tried and not wanting. *Δοκιμαδζω* [the verb form] is used with regard to metal and to coins and implies a testing of their genuineness and their full weight and being accepted when they are found to meet requirements. When we persevere in tribulation we reach this tried condition of our faith, a glorious condition, indeed, which cannot be reached in any other way in this world of sin.


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## moral necessity (Jan 9, 2012)

Thanks, guys. I'll sift through what you posted.

Blessings!


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## J. Dean (Jan 9, 2012)

From what I understand, the NAS is supposed to be a more accurate word-for-word translation than the KJV, but has a more stilted literary style that does not flow as well.


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## moral necessity (Jan 9, 2012)

Still, the question in my mind comes down to, "Who's character is being proven? God's or ours?" Knowing that it could be interpreted as "experience" forced me to consider it being "experience that comes from trials, about how God's takes care of us and assists us during our trials." Calvin takes the passage the same way. Having it say "proven character" made me gravitate to thinking it is talking about myself, as if sanctification were the focus of the passage. It even made the sermon go in that direction. I ended up in two different worlds from just one word. 

Blessings!


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## JimmyH (Jan 9, 2012)

View attachment 2578Here is a graph of sorts from Evangelical Bible's website showing the level of accuracy of various English translations.


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## Bad Organist (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi,

I don't think the chart is dealing with accuracy so much as literalness. 

I would only comment that when it comes to literal word for word, I think the NKJV and KJV are more literal.

Phrases such as... And it came to pass when...............
And He answered and said to them..............
Are shortened repeatedly to When, and he answered them.........in the ESV.

It may not affect accuracy, but is not literal.

Sounds like the ESV cleaned up the text into English.

Arie V.
Free Church of Scotland,
Toronto, Canada


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