# Ash Wednesday



## rmb (Feb 9, 2005)

I was suprised at the number of people at my work that know nothing of Lent or what the significance of Ash Wednesday is. I am trying to explain to Catholics what a catholic sign day is. I wondered What You all thought of Ash Wednesday, and what are the Lenten traditions in your Church.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 9, 2005)

I think Ash Wednesday is a superstitious Roman Catholic holiday. It falls in between Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday) and Lent, both being carnal observances though at opposite extremes of the spectrum. 



> This is the first day of Lent. It is called Ash Wednesday, because in the Roman catholic church the priest blesses ashes on this day, and puts them on the heads of the people. These ashes are made of the branches of brushwood or palms, consecrated the year before. The ashes are cleaned, and dried, and sifted, fit for the purpose. After the priest has given absolution to the people, he prays "Vouchsafe + to bless and sanctify + these ashes — that whosoever shall sprinkle these ashes upon them for the redemption of their sins, they may obtain health of body and protection of soul,["] &c. Prayers ended, the priest sprinkles the ashes with holy water, and perfumes them thrice with incense, and the people coming to him and kneeling, he puts ashes on their heads in the form of a cross with other ceremonies.





> Ash Wednesday: Is it in the Bible?
> 
> No, it is not. Ash Wednesday is actually of pagan origin and was admitted into the church beliefs of the Catholic Church a few hundred years after Christ. This was the era when Constantine was attempting to weld pagans and Christians into a unit within the Roman kingdom.
> 
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Feb 9, 2005)

Aye, Andrew,
I think it smacks of popery!, to use Reformer talk.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 9, 2005)

For Lent I'm giving up such unscriptural nonsense. As a sagitarian I don't believe in trivial idlings like lent and the zodiac.


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## cupotea (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> For Lent I'm giving up such unscriptural nonsense. As a sagitarian I don't believe in trivial idlings like lent and the zodiac.


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## cupotea (Feb 9, 2005)

Forgive me, but I don't even know what half these holidays are supposed to represent. Yesterday and today people have been talking about Pancake/Shrove/Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday, and I have no clue what the significance is. I know some people eat a lot on the Tuesday and then fast for forty days, and then Mardi Gras starts in New Orleans and they have some freaky parade. I also know there was some stupid movie made starring that guy that all the girlies like, Josh Hartnett or something, which parodies the tradition by trying to seriously follow it. You know the one I mean. 

Why do people give things up? What the heck is Pancake Tuesday? I'm so confused!


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Aye, Andrew,
> I think it smacks of popery!, to use Reformer talk.



Exactly. Works of supererogation.

XIV. Of Works of Supererogation.

Voluntary Works besides, over and above, God's Commandments, which they call Works of impiety: for by them men do declare, that they do not only render unto God as much as they are bound to do, but that they do more for his sake, than of bounden duty is required: whereas Christ saith plainly, When ye have done all that are commanded to you, say, We are unprofitable servants.

(Thirty Nine Articles)

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by tcalbrecht]


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 9, 2005)

http://logosresourcepages.org/Holidays/palm_sunday.htm

bullet The Pagan History of Lent

The word lent comes from the Anglo-Saxon word lencten which means spring, which was derived from the Anglo-Saxon word lenctentid (pronounced LENG-ten-teed), which means the time of lengthening and flowering. The entire spring season was called Lenctentid. The ancient Anglo-Saxons (and other pagans) celebrated the return of spring with rioteous fertility festivals commemorating their goddess of fertility and of springtime, Eastre. In fact, the word Easter is derived from the Scandinavian Ostara and the Teutonic Ostern or Eastre, both pagan goddesses. The complete month of April was called Eostur-monath with the entire month was dedicated to Eostre. The pagan religion taught that Eostre was one responsible for changing a bird into a rabbit, this then is how the rabbit became an Easter symbol. Rabbits symbolize the fertility of springtime. It should be noted that the rabbit's capacity of abundant production of young is especially great at this time of year. I should also tell you that most ancient races, including the Anglo-Saxons, included spring festivals to celebrate the rebirth life, using the Egg was a symbol of fertility, life and re-birth. This is old Latin proverb catches this idea -- Omne vivum ex ovo. This means "all life comes from an egg".

One final note, the Lenten season’s length has varied throughout history, however 40 days, not including Sunday, were finally settled upon and established by Roman Catholic Canon Law said to commemorate the 40 days Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan in the wilderness.

So, how did such pagan things as Lent and Easter (I am not referring to the blessed Resurrection of Jesus Christ) come into the church? Alexander Hislop gives us the answer -- "To conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursuing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festivals amalgamated, and, by a complicated but skillful adjustment of the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism and Christianity—now far sunk in idolatry—in this as in so many other things, to shake hands" (The Two Babylons).

Let’s move from human tradition, speculation and fabrication to biblical reality…Palm Sunday. Each Gospel gives an account of what Bible students call Jesus Christ’s Palm Sunday Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem. I would encourage you to read Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:29-40; John 12:9-19.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 9, 2005)

John MacArthur discusses Lent in here as well as other parts of the pagan cycle....

http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/resource/macarthurchristmass.htm

JOHN MAC ARTHUR ON CHRISTMASS

This man has such a command of history and information to back up this discussion. Great. But, when he ends the discussion, he makes it clear that if he wants to stand with one foot on the rock and the other in the miry clay, so what? He will do whatever works to preach the Gospel. Well, the Gospel is NOT the first issue to our Lord.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

You cannot, sir, give an answer of the hope you have in Jesus Christ by participating in holidays and celebrations which directly blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ and, at the same time, exalt pagan gods.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

________________________

MAC ARTHUR'S STATEMENT ON CHRISTMAS:

You asked about Christmas; I’ll tell you about Christmas.

In the early Greek periods, December was the month of orgies and feasts and festivals to the gods. It was the time of the feast of Saturnalia. The winter was coming, and they wanted to appease the gods, that they would survive the winter and they would see the spring and all of this. So these tremendous pagan festivals to Saturnalia and to many other deities were held in December. Now, the Constantine Roman Empire that came about in about 300 or so, after that they wanted to sort of Christianize everything, and so in approximately 450 AD the bishop of Rome decided that it would be really good if they could Christianize the festivals of December. So he determined in some kind of conjunction with the Bishop of Jerusalem that they would spot December 25 as the birth of Christ. And if they could pick December 25th as the birth of Christ, that might sanctify all of this, even though it’s highly unlikely that He was born then. They were really trying to overpower the paganism. But instead, they got a mishmash.

Mistletoe—that’s from paganism; Christmas trees—paganism; holly—basically is a rather pagan thing; Christmas cards—1864 and they were first invented by a business man who thought of a way to make money, and they had drinking scenes on them. So you can go right down the line. Saint Nicholas from Scandinavia was a saint in the Roman system who was supposed to leave things stuffed in little wooden shoes of kids who were good. This is not uncommon in Christianity.

Another illustration—just before Easter, traditionally the Christian church celebrates what season? Lent—you know where Lent came from? There’s no Lent in the Bible—none. It never appears in the Bible. It has nothing to do with the resurrection of Christ, but in ancient paganism, in the instructions of Baal and Ashteroth, and the deities of the ancients, it was believed that Tamuz or Baal—he goes by a lot of different names, Cupid, many names—but that Tamuz or Baal was killed by a wild boar, and when he was killed by a wild boar, his mother Semiramis, the high priestess of Babylonian paganism, mourned for him and cried for him for forty days, and at the end of those forty days, he was risen from the dead. So the whole concept of the forty-day mourning and going without and fasting has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Christ but was an imposition on Christianity from pagan mystery religions of Babylon.

The mother-child perspective, where you see in the Roman churches, you know, the virgin or you see the pieta, the carving, this whole mother-child thing, does not come, basically, from Christianity. There’s no sentimentalization of that in the Bible, but it comes again from paganism. Semiramis, it was by the pagans, conceived her son Tamuz because she was implanted by a sunbeam. That would falsify what? The virgin birth. And after that she gave birth to her son without a human father. So that the mother-child cult really came through mystery religions of Babylon and in its pagan origin was superimposed on Christianity. And ultimately the confusion came out in the Roman Catholic system where you have Lent, which has no Biblical basis at all. In fact, that’s only one part of it.

But you know the term “queen of heaven”? I was reading a Catholic book the other day: Queen of Heaven—queen of heaven you can find in the book of Ezekiel. And the first queen of heaven was Semiramis the high priestess of Babylonian cults, the mother-child cult. Many of these features have come out of paganism and been superimposed across Christianity.

Now, that is not say we have to abandon all meaningful things. I mean, just because the world wants to mess up and confuse the issue, doesn’t mean I have to be confused about it. I could celebrate Christmas today if I wanted to, and I could celebrate it any day I want. And I can be grateful the Lord was born, or the Lord was risen from the dead, or whatever. That’s my prerogative as long as I understand the distinction. The part that I don’t think is necessary is for us to sort of just say, well, we will not do all of that. I think you miss something there. I think that if you want to honor the Lord Jesus Christ, that’s great, and if you are really good about it, you will capitalize on people’s sensitivity toward Christ at that season. I know that every Christmas season, I gear up to preach an evangelistic message, and people come to Christ because there’s a sensitivity. Plus psychologists tell us that the most depressing time of the year is the Christmas time. That’s when people are most depressed, because they’re supposed to be happy and they’re not. They look forward to all the family getting together. And the family gets together, and nobody likes each other. So there are some problems there.

But, yes, there’s no question about the fact that the systems of Babylon have been superimposed upon Christianity; there’s no question about that. So insofar as he brings that issue—There’s another book that’s very helpful called The Two Babylons by Hyslop, also a very, very helpful book.


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## blhowes (Feb 9, 2005)

I have a weird sense of humor sometimes, but does anybody else ever get the urge to laugh when you see people walking around with their ash "sign of the cross" (or whatever it is) on their foreheads? It just strikes me funny (in a sad sort of way) to see people who, on any other day would have no interest in talking about Jesus or discussing the scriptures, religiously walking around with an ash mark on their foreheads.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 9, 2005)

Kind of an eerie "Left Behind" feeling? 

Actually I first encountered this while working at a restuarant. The first one, I thought that she must have just gotten grease on her. But after seeing 90% of the ppl during lunch rush with it...I finally had to ask a supervisor what was going on.

I was young and ignorant...kinda like when I worked for Walgreens and had a man get mad at me because I needed to know what an enema was before i could point him to the right aisle!


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 9, 2005)

I love ASH wednesday!! In my briefcase, I have a 6 inch, sumatra wrapped, dominican filled beauty that will be ash right about 5 pm on my way home from work. 

If I get really adventurous, I'll put it out on my forehead for you.

hahahahahahahaha


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## BobVigneault (Feb 9, 2005)

An 'enema' is -
a. a puzzling thing or person,
b. the injection of liquid or gas into the (please see thread on filthy language), or
c. an elder in the Dutch Reformed Church.

Thank you Colleen for the chuckle, wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that one.


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## cupotea (Feb 9, 2005)

Why do they put ash on people's foreheads?


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## BobVigneault (Feb 9, 2005)

Excellent interpretation of ash wednesday Scott. I've got the pic of you rubbing a cold cigar (edited word that means rear-end) on your forehead. You're killing me.


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## rmb (Feb 9, 2005)

*Subject: Ash Wednesday*

I remember as a Catholic, feeling the superstitious protection from God that Penance provides, or the power of a Novena to obtain "stuff",or the protection afforded by wearing of a Scapular. It goes on and on. In the Latin countries the abundance of demons depicted or ritualized in the Lent activities is eye opening. All to agree with the MacArthur point.


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## blhowes (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cottonball_
> Why do they put ash on people's foreheads?


Here's what one catholic website said:

The ashes we receive on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday are an annual reminder of the passage of time and our constant need of repentance, our need to change. The ashes were made from the burning of the palms which had been blessed last Palm Sunday. We had waved palms in praise of Christ at the beginning of Holy Week and now we must call to mind humbly that we have failed him many times since that day. Even in their origin therefore, the ashes show the passing of this world and all created things.

Centuries ago it was the custom, at the beginning of Lent, to sprinkle ashes on public sinners as they came into the church in repentance. Now, we acknowledge publicly that we are all sinners and in need of repentance. Carrying the ashes on our forehead indicates our willingness to do penance for our sins. The traditional words used as the ashes are placed provide a timely reflection: "Remember, you are dust and to dust you will return." The alternative verse used in many churches focuses our attention on the deep meaning of our Lenten observance: "Turn away from sin and be faithful to the gospel."


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## blhowes (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Kind of an eerie "Left Behind" feeling?
> 
> Actually I first encountered this while working at a restuarant. The first one, I thought that she must have just gotten grease on her. But after seeing 90% of the ppl during lunch rush with it...I finally had to ask a supervisor what was going on.
> ...


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## A.J.A. (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> In fact, the word Easter is derived from the Scandinavian Ostara and the Teutonic Ostern or Eastre, both pagan goddesses. The complete month of April was called Eostur-monath with the entire month was dedicated to Eostre.



Easter gets its name from the Anglo-saxon month. In other European languages it's named after Passover.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 9, 2005)

No, Passover and Easter have always been two different holidays. One Jewish and one pagan...another variant on Easter is Ashtoreth


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## A.J.A. (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> No, Passover and Easter have always been two different holidays. One Jewish and one pagan...another variant on Easter is Ashtoreth



You're mistaken. They were calling it Passover (or some varient thereof) before the English language existed, so arguments based on English etymology are pretty much irrelivant. (Although I was mistaken in one aspect: the German name is similar and has the same origin.)

Easter's date, remember, is based on the cycles of the moon. That's because the Jewish calendar is lunar and date of Passover depends on the lunar cycle.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 9, 2005)

I'm going to do my alms before men and throw soot and water on my face so I can look like I'm fasting. j/k

:bigsmile:


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 9, 2005)

There was still a Pagan holiday at that time that had to do with Easter...though that name has varied within the English language...this is not Passover.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 9, 2005)

I work with kids, imagine their reactions when they see several staff members with what they believe to be dirt on their foreheads!


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## future expatriate (Feb 10, 2005)

Eh--I like the liturgical calendar. I just don't view it as an obligation.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I work with kids, imagine their reactions when they see several staff members with what they believe to be dirt on their foreheads!



That would be hysterical...are you off or did you get to see their reactions?


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## ANT (Feb 10, 2005)

We ought to follow it with 'Chocolate Thursday' and everybody walk around with chocolate smeared across our chin. A sign that we have broken our fast!


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 13, 2005)

Some girl asked my friend Will what she should give up for Lent. He replied "How about Catholicism?"


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



I was on duty for it, but I always tip my girls off about it so they don't embarass themselves, the ashed person, or me! That has happened in the past.

A girl walks up to a Catholic and says "Mr. you have a smudge of dirt on your head" as if she is helping him in some way.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Some girl asked my friend Will what she should give up for Lent. He replied "How about Catholicism?"



That's beautiful!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 13, 2005)

What's the diff between Lent and Ramadan?


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## just_grace (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> What's the diff between Lent and Ramadan?



I wonder how far Paul would have got in Athens or Corinth or anywhere else... with your spirit brother!

Just because someone does not belong to a Christian community now, does not mean that person is not of the Elect....people get saved or did you forget that...

Mock mock mock...

Or is it just Americans get saved these days 

[Edited on 2-13-2005 by just_grace]

[Edited on 2-13-2005 by just_grace]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by just_grace_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



What in the world are you talking about?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 13, 2005)

*just_grace*: Will you please shorten your signature, for my sake. All I'm asking for is.. just.. grace.. It's really long, brother!


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by just_grace_
> ...



Andrew, I think he was taking your statement to mean that all who celebrate Lent (and thus are presumably Catholic, and thus "not belonging to a Christian community") are in the same boat as those who celebrate Ramadan, and are thus lost and apostate.

David, if that is what you took Andrew's statement to make, I'm sure you were misunderstanding him, since he simply meant that Lent is no more a legitimate holiday in which Christians _should_ participate than is, say, Ramadan.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks, Chris. 

My point was really that Lent and Ramadan are both 40-day-long ritual "fasts" that purport to make a person more holy by the partaking (even though neither is a true Biblical fast). Both the Roman Catholic and Muslim approaches to holiness are works-based and the similarities are striking. 

I certainly wasn't commenting on the persons who might partake of either ritual, but rather the rituals themselves. 

I am a former Catholic and quite aware of the fact that God is able to save Roman Catholics and Muslims. I don't know why David assumed I was arguing somehow that only Americans can be saved, since I didn't say anything about Americans. 

It seemed a strange response to a simple rhetorical question.

I think the following Scriptures speak to both the Lenten and Ramadan practices. 

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (Col. 2.20-23)

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6.16-18)

[Edited on 14-2-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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