# Sundays = Lord's Day



## jenson75

*Sundays = Lord\'s Day*

I


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## Scott Bushey

The OT sabbath was not _arbitrary_. 

Exodus 20:8-11 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


All the NT references show specifically that Gods people met on 'the first day of the week'.

Acts 20:7 7 And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.

The tithe is gathered on the 1st day.......

Nowhere do we see Christs church meeting together on Tuesday or Wednesday. This is nothing less than another fine example of poor theology or antinomianism.


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## BobVigneault

Scott,
When I was arguing for a seventh day sabbath you brought up the one in seven argument to muddy the argument that I was making. These NT passages you have brought up are not explicitly referring to corporate worship on the 1st day of the week.

Acts 20:7 regards a time of fellowship which seems to have happened on one day - the day before he had to leave. "Hey everybody, I'm leaving Monday, lets get together on Sunday and break bread and fellowship and talk about the future. This will be our last opportunity face to face. 

1 Cor 16:2 is telling the people that as soon as the week begins start saving money for when I come. It's says nothing about giving it in worship on the first day, in fact it says to save it until that day 'when I come'. Perhaps he came on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

These two verses are incidentals and cannot be made the basis for ecclesiastical doctrine.

I'm not going to start the whole seventh day argument again but I will continue to point out the change is not the result of the teaching of scripture but of tradition.


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## Ivan

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Nowhere do we see Christs church meeting together on Tuesday or Wednesday. This is nothing less than another fine example of poor theology or antinomianism.



What about Act 2:46-47?

46And *day by day*, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number *day by day* those who were being saved.


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Scott,
> When I was arguing for a seventh day sabbath you brought up the one in seven argument to muddy the argument that I was making. These NT passages you have brought up are not explicitly referring to corporate worship on the 1st day of the week.
> 
> Acts 20:7 regards a time of fellowship which seems to have happened on one day - the day before he had to leave. "Hey everybody, I'm leaving Monday, lets get together on Sunday and break bread and fellowship and talk about the future. This will be our last opportunity face to face.
> 
> 1 Cor 16:2 is telling the people that as soon as the week begins start saving money for when I come. It's says nothing about giving it in worship on the first day, in fact it says to save it until that day 'when I come'. Perhaps he came on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
> 
> These two verses are incidentals and cannot be made the basis for ecclesiastical doctrine.
> 
> I'm not going to start the whole seventh day argument again but I will continue to point out the change is not the result of the teaching of scripture but of tradition.



Bob,
The one in seven argument 'muddied' the waters? I have to go to work now, so I won't be able to interact with your post right now. If you believe the Lords day is traditional, would you mind supporting that with some historic references. I know of no one historically that holds to that idea.


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## Scott Bushey

I'll add: Was the OT sabbath arbitrary? Why would one think that the NT sabbath be arbitrary if the OT one wasn't?


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## CDM

> _Originally posted by jenson75_
> Thanks for the replies so far. Maybe I should be a bit tighter with the question:
> 
> *Sunday = Lord's Day?*
> 
> Sunday is not described in the Bible, but Lord's Day is. So how did we get to equate Sunday with Lord's Day? I am willing to concede that the early church just did it under the guidance from the Holy Spirit (I am sure they remembered the resurrection!), but do we know of an historical documents that could shed a bit more light on this?
> 
> The reason why I brought this up is this:
> My friend who honours the Lord's Day, made a few quirky remarks about this issue. *He insists that those who are involved in "duties of necessity and mercy" on Sunday, should worship on another day (Mon - Sat). *To me, that is unusual.
> 
> He also made the argument that *different countries in different time zones, worship God at different "Lord's Day"*. Is that a valid argument?
> 
> Hence I am bringing to your attention (hopefully!) the question, *why equate worship on Sunday with Lord's Day? *
> 
> Further comments?
> 
> [Edited on 10-2-2006 by jenson75]



"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" - Rev 1:10

What day, exactly, is the apostle referring to here? You have 7 choices.

I'll choose Sunday, with the apostles, the reformers, and the rest of the saints throughout history.

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by mangum]


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## BobVigneault

Good for you Chris, scripture tells us you should be FULLY convinced in your own mind regarding your conviction or choice. The question still remains, can you back up the change from scripture.

The passage you sited also says "I was in the Spirit on the day of the Lord", depending how you translate it. Which day of the Lord would that be. The day of the Lord is always A day of judgment. Of course judgment is the subject of what Jesus is revealing to John.


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## NaphtaliPress

The specific one day of seven was changeable, but by God's appointment only; not subject to change by man.


> WCF 21.7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him:k which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,l which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,m and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.n
> 
> 
> 
> k, EXO 20:8, 10-11. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ISA 56:2, 4, 6-7. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
> 
> l. GEN 2:2-3. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 1CO 16:1-2. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. ACT 20:7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
> 
> m. REV 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
> 
> n. EXO 20:8, 10. [See 7k]. With MAT 5:17-18. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Click to expand...


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Here are a few resources to consider on the issue of the change of the Sabbath day from the 7th day to the first day of the week:

Sabbath: The Day Changed, The Sabbath Preserved by A.A. Hodge

From the Seventh Day to the First: A Brief Look at the History of the Sabbath Day vs. Lord's Day by R. L. Dabney

The Change of the Sabbath by Thomas Shepard

The Covenantal Sabbath by Dr. F. Nigel Lee

Thomas Vincent on WSC 59

Matthew Henry on WSC 59

Fisher's Catechism on WSC 59

The Christian Sabbath: Examined, Proved, Applied by Brian Schwertley

The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by Jonathan Edwards

The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by James T. Dennison, Jr.

Questions about the Nature and Perpetuity of the Seventh-Day Sabbath, and Proof, that the First Day of the Week is the True Christian Sabbath by John Bunyan

Christian Sabbath by Sam Waldron

The Lord's Day by Francis Turretin

Additional resources can be found here, here and here.


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## Peter

Christ finished the work of Redemption and rose from the dead on the first day of the week thereby entering into his rest Hebrews 4:10.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> re but of tradition.



Bob,
The one in seven argument 'muddied' the waters? I have to go to work now, so I won't be able to interact with your post right now. If you believe the Lords day is traditional, would you mind supporting that with some historic references. I know of no one historically that holds to that idea.[/quote]

Scott, no I do not believe the day is arbitrary. When I say that the change from the seventh day sabbath to the first day Lord's day is based in tradition I mean that it's not based in scripture.

The best we can say is that because there seems to be a change of the day in the early history of the church that it was probably done with apostolic authority. Which apostles or when we don't know.

We can also say that the day was changed along with other 'boundaries' because of the NEW covenant economy.

But we can't point to a verse and say, this is where the day changed.

Personally I believe that the seventh day (Saturday) sabbath is a creation ordinance and couldn't be changed by an apostle. By Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath yes, but not by a messenger. 

There are good arguments that can be made for a day change but they don't start in scripture.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by jenson75_
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Am I right to say that the "1 in 7" or Lord's Day does not necessarily need to be "Sunday"?
> 
> So is it only church tradition that declared Sunday = Lord's Day?



If you hold to a '1 in 7' application yes, I do not hold to that. Others will say that because Jesus is our sabbath rest that the sabbath went out with the old convenant distinctives. 

I wish my seventh day friends (Seventh Day Baptist) a good Sabbath on Saturday and a blessed Lord's Day to my Sunday keeping friends. I won't break fellowship over this issue with anyone. But I do appreciate that wherever you come down on this issue that you hold strongly to your conviction and be prepared to defend it. If you can't defend it then consider changing.

In many areas of biblical study (ecclesiology, eschatology, sacramentology) the goal must be to find and hold to the school of thought that is the most defensible. There are some issues that defy dogmatism but that doesn't mean we should be wishy-washy. Study to defend your position. Don't claim a position because your favorite theolog holds to it but work to defend it from the scripture.

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Scott

I will give a few arguments for the change. The firstis that we have precedent set by Christ and His apostles, which is as binding as their command. The apostles worshiped on Sundays. We should too.

•	John 20:19. On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
•	John 20:26. A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
•	Acts 2:1. “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” The day of Pentecost was on the day after the Sabbath.
•	Acts 20:7. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.” Note that the disciples came together to “break bread” – meaning partake of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper. This is the high point of Christian worship.
•	1 Cor. 16:1-2. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

A second argument is from secondary sources. In Revelation 1:10 John wrote: “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. . .:” The passage assumes that the reader will know what this is. Sources external to the Bible indicate that this was Sunday. (Some of these statements are directly from Dabney's work on the topic).
•	Ignatius, the celebrated martyr-bishop of Antioch, says, in his Epistle to the Magnesians, written not more than twenty years after the death of John, that "this is the Lord's day, the day consecrated to the resurrection, the chief and queen of all the days."
•	Tertullian, at the close of the second century, says: We Christians "celebrate Sunday as a joyful day. On the Lord's day we think it wrong to fast or to kneel in prayer." It was a common opinion of the earlier Christians that all public prayers on the Lord's day should be uttered standing, because kneeling is a more sorrowful attitude and inconsistent with the joy and blessedness of Christ's day.
•	Clement of Alexandria, a very learned Christian contemporary with Tertullian, says: "A true Christian, according to the commands of the gospel, observes the Lord's day by casting out all bad thoughts and cherishing all goodness, honoring the resurrection of the Lord, which took place on that day."

•	Perhaps the most the most explicit is Eusebius of Cæsarea, who was in his prime about A. D. 325. In a commentary on the ninety-second Psalm, which is entitled, "A psalm or song for the Sabbath day," he says: "The Word" (Christ) "by the new covenant translated and transferred the feast of the Sabbath to the morning light, and gave us the symbol of the true rest, the saving Lord's day, the first of light, in which the Saviour gained the victory over death. On this day, which is the first of the Light and the true Sun, we assemble after the interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual Sabbath; even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world assemble, and do those things according to the spiritual law which were decreed for the priests to do on the Sabbath. All things which it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day, as more appropriately belonging unto it, because it has the precedence, and is first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath. It hath been enjoined on us that we should meet together on this day, and it is evidence that we should do these things announced in this psalm.''


I will give three theological to arguments support the change of the creation ordinance from the seventh day to the eighth day. The first is that the life and work of Jesus parallels the creation account of Genesis. The final day on which He rested is Sunday. His ministry began with His baptism. At His baptism, the Spirit of God hovered over the waters and descended on Him. Matthew 2. This parallels the beginning of the creation account of the Spirit of God hovering over the waters. Genesis 1. God rested when he finished His work of creating. Jesus rested from His redemptive work when He was raised and returned from His descent into hell. This was Sunday. Consequently, Jesus’ day of rest has a significance similar to that of God’s day of rest at creation. Each of us is a new creation when we convert. 2 Cor. 5:17; Galatians 6:15. 

A second argument is based on numerous Old Testament ceremonies and passages attach special significance to the 8th day. These examples include circumcision, ritual cleansing, etc. Do a word search of “eighth” and you will see numerous references, many concerning ceremonies and rituals. These may prefigure an eighth day of rest in the Lord, based on the Lord’s resurrection on the 8th day (Sunday).

A third argument is based on the redemption of Christ as a spiritual return to Eden. See Revelation 22 is one example. The Garden of Eden was a model of our life with God prior to the fall. Redemption to a certain extent restores us to this position. Images of Eden are often used to express Christ’s redemption. In Eden Adam was created on the sixth day and the Sabbath was on the seventh. This means that Adam’s first full day was a day of rest. Similarly, the first day of our week is a day of rest.

Scott

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by Scott]


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## BobVigneault

Holy Moly Scott, using the gospel of John references implies you're trying to put the day change before the crucifixion even. I've never seen that before. 

You have also appealed to Eusebius. Eusebius is the 'father of history' and Constantines waterboy. I'll be happy to concede the day change to the time of Constatine and his homeboy Eusebius.


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## Contra_Mundum

Here's how I'd articulate my position, in brief:

1. The worship of God is regulated worship (2nd commandment)
2. The OT day of worship was designated in Scripture (4th commandment)
3. The 4th commandment is itself reflected in the earlier creation ordinance
4. So from the beginning of the world, God has "charged propriety" in one specifed day of the week
5. The coming of the NT did not overthrow the principle of regulated worship
6. The church never has authority to change the day of worship
7. The NT church does not gather for corporate worship on the 7th day
8. Starting on the day of the Resurrection, and repeated exactly one week later, Jesus begins to meet with his gathered people on the 1st day.
9. Subsequently, we have repeated NT references to the 1st-day gatherings of the church
10. This gathering for regulated worship, including the day, must be according to divine direction

Inferences
11. Jesus still meets with his people on the 1st day of every week in a pattern that has not changed from the beginning of this age
12. The "Lord's Day" of Rev. 1:10 is an early Christian designation for that recurring day of worship


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## BobVigneault

Dang it! I said I wasn't going to argue about this. Stop baiting me!


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## Contra_Mundum

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Holy Moly Scott, using the gospel of John references implies you're trying to put the day change before the crucifixion even. I've never seen that before.



John chapter 20 is before the crucifixion???


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## Contra_Mundum

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Dang it! I said I wasn't going to argue about this. Stop baiting me!


Baiting!

Bob, I even included "this is how I articulate *my position*" so that no one would feel like I was piling on them.


(OK, yes, I did not MISS the smiley-face)


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Here's how I'd articulate my position, in brief:
> 
> 1. The worship of God is regulated worship (2nd commandment)
> 2. The OT day of worship was designated in Scripture (4th commandment)
> 3. The 4th commandment is itself reflected in the earlier creation ordinance
> 4. So from the beginning of the world, God has "charged propriety" in one specifed day of the week
> 5. The coming of the NT did not overthrow the principle of regulated worship
> 6. The church never has authority to change the day of worship
> 7. The NT church does not gather for corporate worship on the 7th day
> 8. Starting on the day of the Resurrection, and repeated exactly one week later, Jesus begins to meet with his gathered people on the 1st day.
> 9. Subsequently, we have repeated NT references to the 1st-day gatherings of the church
> 10. This gathering for regulated worship, including the day, must be according to divine direction
> 
> Inferences
> 11. Jesus still meets with his people on the 1st day of every week in a pattern that has not changed from the beginning of this age
> 12. The "Lord's Day" of Rev. 1:10 is an early Christian designation for that recurring day of worship



Good articulation Pastor Bruce. I would reverse the logic of you 2nd and 3rd points. The sabbath was instituted (not reflected) at the creation and placed as a law in our hearts, it was codified in the second commandment.

Number 7, this is an argument from silence. I'm only hearing crickets chirping.

8 and 9 are speaking of incidentals and say nothing explicitly about a day change.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Dang it! I said I wasn't going to argue about this. Stop baiting me!
> 
> 
> 
> Baiting!
> 
> Bob, I even included "this is how I articulate *my position*" so that no one would feel like I was piling on them.
> 
> 
> (OK, yes, I did not MISS the smiley-face)
Click to expand...



Pastor Bruce, I was posting while you were posting. I didn't mean to imply you were baiting me.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Holy Moly Scott, using the gospel of John references implies you're trying to put the day change before the crucifixion even. I've never seen that before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John chapter 20 is before the crucifixion???
Click to expand...



OOOOOOOOOPS!
Hey if anyone wants to rent out my brain for a while it's available. I'M NOT USING IT!!!!


Don't be tempted to make an ad hominem argument now.

1. Bob say's things that are sometimes wrong,
2. Bob is a big, stupid idiot,
There fore,
3. Everything Bob says is wrong.

Sometimes I get lucky.

Sorry Scott, I take it back .

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Contra_Mundum

Jenson:

1) disagree. I think the Lord's Day=Sunday is a strong inference from Rev. 1:10 and the rest of the NT, and is supplemented by Christian practice (before Constantine, btw)


2) disagree. Jesus teaching regarding the Sabbath specifically identified what the WCF describes as "deeds of necessity and mercy." That is how we came to recognize those as allowable activities on the day of worship. What we hope for is that a "deed of necessity" should not providentially hinder us from worship.

If a person is called to shift work (for example) in a hospital it should not be something that _always_ prevents his worship. How about going to the evening service if he misses the morning? How about working one weekend, but getting the following weekend off? How about not taking (or quitting) a job where you know ahead of time the supervisors will never allow you to worship God at His summons--time, date, and place?

You may recall, God judged Pharaoh severely for his refusal to spare Israel, merely for the purpose of worshipping God. "Him that honors me, him will I honor."


3) specious argument. The whole argument assumes that God *cannot* reasonably dictate a day to his creation on which to worship him. What about the pre-Christian era? The logic would also have to apply then as well as now. What about the OT Sabbath? Was it a creation ordinance or not? The argument proves too much.

The whole day is His. The day "turns" with the world. For some 24-hours, the whole globe by turns, and in various ways, and different times of the day, and several times a day, is giving the day and their worship to God.


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## BobVigneault

As always, well said Bruce.

On points 2 and 3 I fully concur. 

Jenson, I'm sorry if I needlessly confused your questions.


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## CDM

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> Jenson:
> 
> 1) disagree. I think the Lord's Day=Sunday is a strong inference from Rev. 1:10 and the rest of the NT, and is supplemented by Christian practice (before Constantine, btw)
> 
> 
> 2) disagree. Jesus teaching regarding the Sabbath specifically identified what the WCF describes as "deeds of necessity and mercy." That is how we came to recognize those as allowable activities on the day of worship. What we hope for is that a "deed of necessity" should not providentially hinder us from worship.
> 
> If a person is called to shift work (for example) in a hospital it should not be something that _always_ prevents his worship. How about going to the evening service if he misses the morning? How about working one weekend, but getting the following weekend off? How about not taking (or quitting) a job where you know ahead of time the supervisors will never allow you to worship God at His summons--time, date, and place?
> 
> You may recall, God judged Pharaoh severely for his refusal to spare Israel, merely for the purpose of worshipping God. "Him that honors me, him will I honor."
> 
> 
> 3) specious argument. The whole argument assumes that God *cannot* reasonably dictate a day to his creation on which to worship him. What about the pre-Christian era? The logic would also have to apply then as well as now. What about the OT Sabbath? Was it a creation ordinance or not? The argument proves too much.
> 
> The whole day is His. The day "turns" with the world. For some 24-hours, the whole globe by turns, and in various ways, and different times of the day, and several times a day, is giving the day and their worship to God.







> _Originally posted by jenson75_
> OK, thanks for the answers so far. Before more heat is generated than light, please help with the following:
> 
> 1) The questions still remains to be answered. But I guess we can concede that, though we honour the Lord's Day (4th commandment...etc), *we cannot say that Lord's Day = Sunday, am I right?*



To help your thinking along, I asked above what is meant by the "Lord's Day" in scripture?

Is it Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or Saturday? 

Bob has given a possible understanding of the Lord's Day in Rev 1:10, although I do not think it takes into account the rest of scripture Bruce mentioned above.

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by mangum]


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## Scott

> 1) The questions still remains to be answered. But I guess we can concede that, though we honour the Lord's Day (4th commandment...etc), we cannot say that Lord's Day = Sunday, am I right?



We can say that the Lord's Day is Sunday. That is the correct position. We can say is that not everybody agrees that the Lord's Day is Sunday. Some people are mistaken (with respect (in the sense of courtesy) to Bob and others who are not convinced). 

This is one of the key issues with Seventh Day Adventists. They hold a Saturday Sabbath. See this outline of the Seventh day Adventist easchatology. The Sunday Worship issue is crucial to they way they view church history.

Scott


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## BobVigneault

I would offer the Seventh Day Baptists and their commentary on keeping the Sabbath. The Adventists are a hairs width from a cult (or knee deep in it) and hold to extra biblical and false teachings.

http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB/Sabbath_EN.asp?SnID=1096062654


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## Scott

> I would offer the Seventh Day Baptists and their commentary on keeping the Sabbath. The Adventists are a hairs width from a cult (or knee deep in it) and hold to extra biblical and false teachings.


Christ's resurrection fulfilled the 8th day prophecies of the Old Testament. The seventh day emphasis misses this point.

Also, the Saturday Sabbath was for the Old Creation. Christ's work innagurated the New Creation. That is why we have a new Sabbath.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> 
> 
> I would offer the Seventh Day Baptists and their commentary on keeping the Sabbath. The Adventists are a hairs width from a cult (or knee deep in it) and hold to extra biblical and false teachings.
> 
> 
> 
> Christ's resurrection fulfilled the 8th day prophecies of the Old Testament. The seventh day emphasis misses this point.
> 
> Also, the Saturday Sabbath was for the Old Creation. Christ's work innagurated the New Creation. That is why we have a new Sabbath.
Click to expand...


Yes, Scott, those are conclusions of that position. Unfortunately those positions begin with the conclusions and then fan through the scriptures trying to find proof texts and pretexts. No where in scriptures are those positions put forth.

There are no logical arguments from scripture regarding the day change, only speculations.

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## R. Scott Clark

Andrew,

Thanks for this. It's very helpful.

I'm giving a lecture on the Sabbath and evening service next week and in January and turning into a chapter for the _Recovering the Reformed Confession_ book.

rsc



> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Here are a few resources to consider on the issue of the change of the Sabbath day from the 7th day to the first day of the week:
> 
> Sabbath: The Day Changed, The Sabbath Preserved by A.A. Hodge
> 
> From the Seventh Day to the First: A Brief Look at the History of the Sabbath Day vs. Lord's Day by R. L. Dabney
> 
> The Change of the Sabbath by Thomas Shepard
> 
> The Covenantal Sabbath by Dr. F. Nigel Lee
> 
> Thomas Vincent on WSC 59
> 
> Matthew Henry on WSC 59
> 
> Fisher's Catechism on WSC 59
> 
> The Christian Sabbath: Examined, Proved, Applied by Brian Schwertley
> 
> The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by Jonathan Edwards
> 
> The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by James T. Dennison, Jr.
> 
> Questions about the Nature and Perpetuity of the Seventh-Day Sabbath, and Proof, that the First Day of the Week is the True Christian Sabbath by John Bunyan
> 
> Christian Sabbath by Sam Waldron
> 
> The Lord's Day by Francis Turretin
> 
> Additional resources can be found here, here and here.


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## NaphtaliPress

This is not an official announcement (as we have not posted 2007 contents yet to the CPJ website) and I trust I'm not letting the cat out of the bag by mentioning it here (I know the editor at least can't take issue with me), but there will appear in the 2007 _Confessional Presbyterian_ journal, a slightly modified version in English of an article that is appearing in the Fall 2006 issue of the Japanese journal, _Reformed Theology._ Sorry, no quotations. That would violate the editor's policy. However one of the two issues is the "change of the day." It is called *John Calvin, the Nascent Sabbatarian: A Reconsideration of Calvin’s View of Two Key Sabbath-Issues,* and is written by Stewart E. Lauer. Woody Lauer, as he is known by his friends, is Professor of Biblical Studies at Kobe Reformed Theological Seminary, where he teaches Old Testament, New Testament, and Hebrew. This article advances the view that Calvin is more of a Sabbatarian in his theology than traditionally has been granted. The draft before putting it in Japanese was vetted and reviewed by Rick Gamble and Stuart Jones, and then finally Dick Gaffin. Stuart Jones suggested Woody submit the piece to CP over WTJ; very nice. Stay tuned for more on the 2007 contents as I progress on getting the issue ready; long way to go.

[Edited on 10-2-2006 by NaphtaliPress]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> Andrew,
> 
> Thanks for this. It's very helpful.
> 
> I'm giving a lecture on the Sabbath and evening service next week and in January and turning into a chapter for the _Recovering the Reformed Confession_ book.
> 
> rsc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Here are a few resources to consider on the issue of the change of the Sabbath day from the 7th day to the first day of the week:
> 
> Sabbath: The Day Changed, The Sabbath Preserved by A.A. Hodge
> 
> From the Seventh Day to the First: A Brief Look at the History of the Sabbath Day vs. Lord's Day by R. L. Dabney
> 
> The Change of the Sabbath by Thomas Shepard
> 
> The Covenantal Sabbath by Dr. F. Nigel Lee
> 
> Thomas Vincent on WSC 59
> 
> Matthew Henry on WSC 59
> 
> Fisher's Catechism on WSC 59
> 
> The Christian Sabbath: Examined, Proved, Applied by Brian Schwertley
> 
> The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by Jonathan Edwards
> 
> The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath by James T. Dennison, Jr.
> 
> Questions about the Nature and Perpetuity of the Seventh-Day Sabbath, and Proof, that the First Day of the Week is the True Christian Sabbath by John Bunyan
> 
> Christian Sabbath by Sam Waldron
> 
> The Lord's Day by Francis Turretin
> 
> Additional resources can be found here, here and here.
Click to expand...


 That sounds like a good book to pre-order!


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## Kevin

Jensen, What Bruce said

Are you all aware of the weakness in the "7th day sabbath=Saturday" argument based on the lunar/solar calendar change?

As I recall the problem arises because the OT sabbath is every 7th day. This creates a problem for the modern "saturday=7th day of the week" because of the fact that the Hebrews (in common with all of the ancients) did NOT have 'named' days of the week only numbered days of the month.

Add a lunar year of 12 30 day months & you have a problem the Jews acomidated the "extra" days by inserting "off-calendar" days between 2 months at 2 seperate times of the year. Thus you had 29th,30th, (day 1, day 2 ) 1st, 2nd, etc. 

What this means is that the sabath in order to be every 7th day had to accept these 'extra' days--even though they are "off calendar".

Thus the OT sabbath was a "wandering feast" just as Christmas is to us same day of the month but a different day of the week. This is the reason that the early church had such big debates over the dating of Easter. They were trying to locate on a solar calendar a date from a lunar calendar, very confusing.

When viewed from our perspective of 7 "named" days of the week the Hebrew sabbath worked its way across all of them. 

Ironically only by shifting to a solar calendar and a "fixed" & "named" week is it possible to worship both every 7th day and the same "day" of the week at the same time.


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## R. Scott Clark

> That sounds like a good book to pre-order!



Well, I started in in '03 and have re-titled it once and am re-writing it now. Don't hold your breath.

Really, you're turning blue and it's a little scary. Okay. That's better. 

rsc


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like a good book to pre-order!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I started in in '03 and have re-titled it once and am re-writing it now. Don't hold your breath.
> 
> Really, you're turning blue and it's a little scary. Okay. That's better.
> 
> rsc
Click to expand...


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## Scott

"There are no logical arguments from scripture regarding the day change, only speculations."

I gave two fairly lengthy arguments from (1) apostolic precdent and (2) secondary authority (filling in the gaps on the meaning of the Lord's Day).


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## NaphtaliPress

My pastor used to have exchanges with 7th Day Adventists over the Sabbath, and one of the exchanges is below. He hasn't been bother much by them of late, at least not that he's told me.
The Christian Sabbath is the First Day of the Week
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/sda.htm
There's a good list of Christ's appearances after his resurrection and noting the time they took place where it is known.


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## Contra_Mundum

The bit above about the "wandering feast" is important to note.

I would like to add that I read a very interesting piece in Rushdoony's "Institutes" some time ago, where the subject of the calendar came up, validating what Kevin described above.

He referenced/quoted research revealing from all appearances, the Israelite practice in the days of Moses and the Exodus probably followed the Egyptian solar-year reckoning. The year was 365 days (but no evidence of a "leap" year, at least not from what was quoted, so that small "slip" still had to be corrected at some point, maybe in a Sabbath year, or Jubilee year?)

And--this is *quite* interesting--the year always began on a Sabbath, always, every year. It had to. Because several subsequent dates had to fall on certain Sabbaths, often a specified number of days apart. For people like me who occasionally get _strangely obsessed_ with biblical minutiae, seeing the results of this kind of investigation (and yes, sketching a typical "year" out on paper as described) is fascinating.

One "Sabbath" (I don't have the book right here, so I can't give you details) was actually 48 hours in duration; not only is it stated so in the text of Scripture, but 365 divided by 7 is 52 weeks+1 day. This addition of 24 hours in the year (by doubling one Sabbath) ensured the year would end on a "sixth day" every year. Thus, it is evident from the biblical record that the beginning and end of our week only has a 1-in-7 chance of correlating perfectly to the exact days of creation. So, those who _obsess_ about *Saturdays* because that is the literal "day of divine rest since the beginning of the world" are simply ignorant of the earliest Jewish date-reckoning.

Temporally, the regular Sabbath moved "ahead" through the week countless times, one day per year, probably until the Babylonian captivity, when the Jews may have brought back to Palestine the modern lunar calendar (which adds a 13th month every 6 years).

Conclusion, we have no way of knowing whether our Saturday is exactly the creation Sabbath X 52 X (howevermanyyearsold the earth is). The important concept is that we have a week, we have a first day, and we keep that day unto God, and answer his summons.


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## non dignus

Kevin and Bruce,

Thanks for your posts on the wandering feast!


As an aside, what about the teaching that the Lord's Day begins at sunset on Saturday?

I've noticed that Roman Catholics have mass on Saturday nights.


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## BobVigneault

> Conclusion, we have no way of knowing whether our Saturday is exactly the creation Sabbath X 52 X (howevermanyyearsold the earth is). The important concept is that we have a week, we have a first day, and we keep that day unto God, and answer his summons.



I'm not obsessing but just being consistent, it could also be said that the important concept is that we have a week, we have a seventh day, we are told to keep that day (explicitly) and answer his summons.

I've never understood why my sola scriptura brothers will tolerate arguments from secondary authorities and jettison our fundamental hermaneutics of scripture alone and the analogy of faith so quickly in order to justify this day change.

We are so vigilante to not violate the second commandment that we will search hill and dale to find a childrens book that has no representation of Jesus. That this could cause our children to worship idols. Yet we accept that the fourth commandment was different than the rest of the decalogue in that the church, which instituted Mary worship, prevented priests from marrying, invented a pope and nullified the gospel, could change the very day that God from the beginning set aside and made holy.

Nope, I don't get it. But please, from scripture, can someone show me what I'm missing. By the way, I'm holding Turretin in my hand. I also have my Bible right here, direct me to the verse that changes the day.

[Edited on 10-3-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by non dignus_
> As an aside, what about the teaching that the Lord's Day begins at sunset on Saturday?
> 
> I've noticed that Roman Catholics have mass on Saturday nights.



See this previous thread on when the Lord's Day begins as well as this article (updated link).


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## Kevin

Bruce, thanks for saying what I was trying to say more clearly! 

I feel like I can explain this to anyone with a calendar and a legal pad but to write out the explanation is challenging.

Bob the solution to your dillema is simple yet complicated to understand.

I say it is simple because Saturday is NOT the 7th day. Complicated to understand because you have to think entirly outside of the 'box' of our entire way of reconing time & days.

Re-read what Bruce said above, and try to think about it as if you dont "know" the days of the week. 

Remember the Hebrews did not have "named" days of the week. They had no concept of "Saturday". To them a Sabbath was simply a number on the calendar. If you do as Bruce has done (me too, I am also a trivia geek) write out a Hebrew calendar for the entire year. Mark every Sabbath (harder then it sounds) then overlay our calendar for the same 'year' you will see that the Sabath wanders through every day of the week.

To me the irony is that those (adventists & 7th day Bapt) who claim to be keeping the "OT SABBATH" have not the slightest idea how to calculate the Sabbath of the Hebrews. Instead they follow the medeavil jewish rabbinical acommodations to the prevailing christian customs.


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## BobVigneault

I understand perfectly what your saying Kevin. According to your proposition we don't know when the 7th day is or the 1st or the 3rd or any of them. I read a book about the Puritans in the south seas and the same thing happened to them in Tahiti. They were so vigilant in making the natives observe all their sabbath requirements never realizing that they had lost track of when the 1st was.

I agree with Bruce here, I'm not worried about the actual creation seventh day. According to common convention we have a week, it has a 1st day and a 7th day, we are told to keep the 7th day.

By way of disclaimer, I'm not trying to get anyone to change the day of corporate worship. I attend a Sunday worshipping church. I'm just pushing for a consistent hermeneutic and I want the hard core Sunday advocate to admit that SCRIPTURALLY, his argument is on shaky ground at best.

[Edited on 10-3-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Kevin

Sorry, Bob you wont get me to admit that !

I am perfectly happy if you want to call Sunday the 7th day. In fact in May of this year Sunday was the 7th day. 

The 7th day Sabbath is a date i.e. a number on a calendar NOT a named day. Sunday is a named day of the week and as such it can have every number. 

So all we have done is keep on observing the 7th day only superimposing the Roman practice of naming the days. Now we keep the 7th day on the "first named day" but it is still the 7th day.


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## BobVigneault

It's a very clever argument Kevin. I'll add that one to my collection. Well done. 
 would not be amused.


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## Kevin

I consider that very high praise Bob!


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## Contra_Mundum

Bob, You know me well enough to know I wasn't pointing any fingers at you (I hope).

And, (I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with Kevin now) I believe we keep "the first day" at Jesus' institution. Shabbat means "rest" and the old 7th day took that name to itself. Now that Jesus has truly given us "rest" we celebrate it.

I also see the change prefigured in the 2 decalogs (Ex. 20 & Deut. 5). In the first, the Sabbath is to be remembered because it is a creation ordinance. In the second, it is to be remembered because God saved his people and brings them into the land of rest.


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## BobVigneault

Of course I knew you were not pointing your finger at me Bruce. As always I am so grateful for your well organized and thought filled contributions. I miss them when you are busy with other matters. Carry on.


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## Scott

> I've never understood why my sola scriptura brothers will tolerate arguments from secondary authorities and jettison our fundamental hermaneutics of scripture alone and the analogy of faith so quickly in order to justify this day change.


Bob: A secondary source is a matter of information, not authority. The Bible mentions chariots but does not explain what they are. We go to secondary sources (Eg. pictures from anicent Egypt and the like) for information about what they are. When an orthodox Christian leader 20 years out of the apostolic period says that the "Lord's Day" means Sunday, that is good information.


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> Bob: A secondary source is a matter of information, not authority. The Bible mentions chariots but does not explain what they are. We go to secondary sources (Eg. pictures from anicent Egypt and the like) for information about what they are. When an orthodox Christian leader 20 years out of the apostolic period says that the "Lord's Day" means Sunday, that is good information.



Thank you Scott for the lesson in what a secondary source is. When I used the words 'secondary authorities' I was quoting you. 




> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "There are no logical arguments from scripture regarding the day change, only speculations."
> 
> I gave two fairly lengthy arguments from (1) apostolic precdent and (2) secondary authority (filling in the gaps on the meaning of the Lord's Day).


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## Scott

> Thank you Scott for the lesson in what a secondary source is. When I used the words 'secondary authorities' I was quoting you.


I was lapsing into legal-speak. Anyway, I did not mean authority but source.


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## MW

At the end of the day, aren't you left with the same facts from a biblical point of view? Jesus Christ kept the last day of the week as the Jewish Sabbath, and appointed the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath. It seems to me that this nullifies historical conjecture about mistaken calendars.


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## Ivan

> _Originally posted by armourbearer_
> At the end of the day, aren't you left with the same facts from a biblical point of view? Jesus Christ kept the last day of the week as the Jewish Sabbath, and appointed the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath. It seems to me that this nullifies historical conjecture about mistaken calendars.



Absolutely!


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## BobVigneault

> _Originally posted by armourbearer_
> At the end of the day, aren't you left with the same facts from a biblical point of view? Jesus Christ kept the last day of the week as the Jewish Sabbath, and appointed the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath. It seems to me that this nullifies historical conjecture about mistaken calendars.



Yes, thank you Pastor Matthew for that voice of reason. (Although I'm still looking for that missing verse where Jesus 'appointed the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath.')


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## MW

Consider these two suggestions. I think they provide a jus divinum for the first day of the week. There is other evidence, but it is more of the nature of ex abundanti.

(1) Christ appeared to, and was worshipped by, the disciples on the first day of the week; and not simply on the day He arose, but at least a week later as well -- the eighth day being, according to Jewish reckoning, the seventh separate day from the day of reckoning. He specifically chose this day to appear to the disciples, and passed over the last day of the week.

(2) The apostles specifically observed the first day of the week as the time on which they conducted public worship, and prescribed acts of public worship to the churches. In the case of the breaking of bread in Acts 20, the apostle was present on the seventh day of the week, but deliberately passed it by in preference for breaking bread on the first day of the week.

Blessings!


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## Ivan

> _Originally posted by armourbearer_
> Consider these two suggestions. I think they provide a jus divinum for the first day of the week. There is other evidence, but it is more of the nature of ex abundanti.
> 
> (1) Christ appeared to, and was worshipped by, the disciples on the first day of the week; and not simply on the day He arose, but at least a week later as well -- the eighth day being, according to Jewish reckoning, the seventh separate day from the day of reckoning. He specifically chose this day to appear to the disciples, and passed over the last day of the week.
> 
> (2) The apostles specifically observed the first day of the week as the time on which they conducted public worship, and prescribed acts of public worship to the churches. In the case of the breaking of bread in Acts 20, the apostle was present on the seventh day of the week, but deliberately passed it by in preference for breaking bread on the first day of the week.
> 
> Blessings!



I'm more than comfortable with that.


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## BobVigneault

1. They would have worshipped Jesus on any day that he showed up. Jesus skipped the sabbath because he didn't want to cause a ruckus on the sabbath.

2. The breaking of bread does not a worship service make. I have been at many a meal where we broke bread and sang a hymn and it wasn't the Lord's Day or the sabbath.

3. Three, ( you didn't bring this up, it's a bonus), the apostles couldn't decide that they were going to honor Christ by changing the day of worship any more than we can decide we will honor him with a guy in jeans with a guitar and two girls in mini-skirts singing "Our God Is An Awesome God" 27 times before the offering is taken. God's made the seventh day holy at creation and all the apostles and angels combined didn't have enough authority to over turn the creator. In my humble opinion.


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## MW

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> 1. They would have worshipped Jesus on any day that he showed up. Jesus skipped the sabbath because he didn't want to cause a ruckus on the sabbath.



This objection is frivolous. How many times do we read of Christ coming into conflict with the Jews over the observance of the Sabbath? He is Lord of the Sabbath!



> 2. The breaking of bread does not a worship service make. I have been at many a meal where we broke bread and sang a hymn and it wasn't the Lord's Day or the sabbath.



The fact of the matter is that the apostle was in Troas seven days, and the only day we read of bread being broken and preaching taking place was the first day of the week. The clause in both Greek and English indicates that the coming together was for the specific purpose of breaking bread. Thus it was a public ordinance which was being observed on the first day of the week.



> 3. Three, ( you didn't bring this up, it's a bonus), the apostles couldn't decide that they were going to honor Christ by changing the day of worship any more than we can decide we will honor him with a guy in jeans with a guitar and two girls in mini-skirts singing "Our God Is An Awesome God" 27 times before the offering is taken. God's made the seventh day holy at creation and all the apostles and angels combined didn't have enough authority to over turn the creator. In my humble opinion.



This is negated by two facts. (1) That Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, had already dictated in His own person that the first day of the week would be the day on which He is to be worshipped. (2) That the apostles were not private men, but fulfilled an authoritative function as ones sent by Christ to reveal His will.


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## BobVigneault

I still don't see it. However, I am an unordained man and I get uncomfortable arguing with dear brothers who hold office in the church. So I'm going to try very hard to take a 'sabbath' from this argument. I believe the original post has been answered. It's a fascinating argument and I've spoke my piece. I pray I haven't frustrated anyone. 

Rom. 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. Amen

[Edited on 10-3-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Ivan

> I pray I haven't frustrated anyone.



Not in the least, Bob. 



> Rom. 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. Amen



Amen, indeed, Bob!


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## MW

Bob,

If he is an ordained man he should be apt (disposed) to teach rather than prone to stipulate. There is nothing wrong with nutting out genuine scruples. True ministers labour to present all men perfect in Christ, which requires them to work by means of the conscience.

At any rate, you have been provided with the basic argument for the jus divinum of the first day of the week. I believe this provides conscientious grounds for passing by the seventh day and for observing the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath. God bless!


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## Kevin

Well said, Rev Winzer.


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