# HELP!



## knight4christ8 (Feb 22, 2004)

I have been a calvinist for about 8 months and I cannot believe that I have not addressed this yet.

Joyce Meyer is called a heretic. I believe this to be sooo. But I have seen that many people have accused her of heresy in believing that Christ paid for our sins, not only on the cross, but also in Hell. This is something that I have always believed. By taking our sins upon himself, was he not subjected to spiritual death 
--&gt; Hell. Without the wrath of God, I do not believe that our sins could be paid for. 
I appreciate anyone's help. If possible use some historical thought. 

Thank you!
Greg


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## sailorswife (Feb 22, 2004)

Gregg,

I don't believe that the scriptures tell us that Jesus went to Hell, afterall He told the thief on the cross &quot;Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise&quot; (Luke 23:43). He did not go to hell after He died, He went through hell on the cross, where He was forsaken and experienced the full wrath of God. Hope that helps......

[Edited on 2-23-2004 by sailorswife]


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## BrianLanier (Feb 22, 2004)

Sailorswife is right on the money. His body did go to &quot;hell&quot; or &quot;hades&quot;, but not how people like Joyce Myers think he did. In saying that he descended into hell (to use the language of the Apostles' Creed) is just to say that his body went into the abode of the dead...where all bodies go when they die physically to await the resurrection. But he suffered the full wrath of God on the cross when the Father, whom He enjoyed perfect fellowship with from all eternity, turned his back on Him, which is reflected in Jesus quoting Psalm 22, &quot;My God, my God, why have you forsaken me&quot;. Hope this helps.


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## unlearnedlearner (Feb 23, 2004)

I haven't spent any time with this Joyce's teachings, but he paid for our sins on the cross. Many that posit Jesus made atonement in hell have a crazy theory that Satan tortured Jesus during this time. Depending on how one interprets the Apostles Creed influences your take on whether he went to hell or not. I don't think believing he went to hell makes one a heretic. Reformed folk throw the h-bomb all too easily.

Personally, the cross terrible, and I don't have a clue how to articulate what went on there. Yes, Jesus died for us, but the existential and theological rift and madness is beyond us, I believe.


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## blhowes (Feb 23, 2004)

Welcome to the forum, Mrs. Puritansailor (sailorswife). Good to have you with us.
Bob


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 23, 2004)

This idea that Jesus went to hell and was tormented by the demons there is a &quot;name it and claim it&quot; heresy.

TBN, Kenneth &amp; Gloria Copeland, Keneth Hagan et al are mistaken.


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## turmeric (Feb 23, 2004)

I call it Mayan theology (meaning no disrespect to Christian Mayans!) The Indians of Central &amp; South America used to have a ritual before coronation of the king where the new king had to go to the &quot;underworld&quot; somewhere below the palace and lie in a coffin with holes in it, (archaeologists have found these) so the priests dressed up with masks and in the dark could poke him with sticks etc, through the holes, and the only way he would be let out was to promise to sacrifice people to save his own tribe from these demons. Then he was released and brought up to a high platform before all his people, where he was made king and the people were told he had overcome the demons of the underworld. I get all my history from the History Channel:biggrin:

Jesus really did overcome the evil one (see the posts on the ressurection in the Passion threads) Joyce Meyers model is pagan and dishonors Christ, who made no bargains with :wr30: ever!!


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## rembrandt (Feb 23, 2004)

People's souls go to either heaven or hell upon death. [i:161a0bc87a]And there is no place in between.[/i:161a0bc87a] So where did Jesus' human spirit/soul go after death (for those 3 days)? And for the controversy about what kind of death he died- spiritual and/or physical, what is the correct thing to say? Obviously he died physically, but I hesitate to say that he also died spiritually (atleast in the sense that we die spiritually- because then his spirit would have gone to hell for those 3 days).
uzzled: uzzled: uzzled:


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## pastorway (Feb 23, 2004)

Spiritual death is to be thrown in the Lake of Fire and suffer the Second Death forever......you never finally die, you are just dying forever......all people, after all, will live forever [i:469167a0e7]somewhere[/i:469167a0e7]! Some (the elect) will be in God's presence really [i:469167a0e7]living[/i:469167a0e7] and the lost will be in the Lake of Fire really [i:469167a0e7]dying[/i:469167a0e7] forever.

Jesus died. Period. And one of the last things He said was, &quot;Into [i:469167a0e7]Your hands[/i:469167a0e7] I commit My Spirit.&quot; (speaking to God there)

And He also said to the thief, &quot;Today you will be [i:469167a0e7]with Me in Paradise[/i:469167a0e7].&quot; (Paradise is heaven, where God is)

His work was [i:469167a0e7]finished[/i:469167a0e7], just as He declared. So when Jesus died, His spirit went immediately to be with the Father. Just as it will happen for all believers when/if we die!

The hell He suffered was the wrath of God for our sin, being separated from the grace and goodness of God, when He who knew no sin was made sin, and a curse for us.

He did not go to the flames of hell, the abode of the lost dead. He did not fight the devil. He did not pay the devil a ransom. God does not owe the devil anything but wrath!

And in hell the devil is not running the show. He will be the most tormented being there!

Phillip

[Edited on 2-23-04 by pastorway]


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## ktstone (Feb 24, 2004)

I am amazed that no one brought up the scripture in Peter's epistle, first off. Because it tells us what happened 'after' Christ died.

Second, when considering the atonement process we must carefully consider the requiremenst for the punishment of sin. That should resound true in every theologically-sound heart. If we look at the requirements for sin we find that the wages are death. No doubt Christ died. Now, during the process of atonement, what would Christ need ot suffer? Separation from God--is hell (2 Thess 1--I think).

Third, No doubt, a huge question from the disciples and apostles was what happened during the three days that He was not with them. Peter tells us some of it. He proclaimed victory over Satan's attempts on earth, for one. There is more.

So to answer the question of the first poster: Christ must needs have completed the full payment of sin for the believer--whatever mandated by God. I think that we would all agree on that. So if we look at the consequences of sin and the intricate details involved we can come to no other conclusion than He followed them perfectly.

There is an excellent article on this at ktstone.com/bible under atonement that may help--believe it is by Owens.

Hope this helps.


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## rembrandt (Feb 24, 2004)

[quote:341c1d108d][i:341c1d108d]originally posted by pastorway[/i:341c1d108d]
So when Jesus died, His spirit went immediately to be with the Father. Just as it will happen for all believers when/if we die![/quote:341c1d108d]

you think that would settle it for the Word Faith teachers. I mean, if believers don't go to hell, how could Christ? In fact, it is absolutely impossible that Christ could (literally) go to hell! He performed the greatest work of righteousness: being obedient even to death on a cross! If Christ could go to hell, that means he would have be justified by his own works to go to heaven (that would make him his own sacrifice), which would mean that he is in need of the grace of God (a sinner). He never sinned, sins were just laid on him.

Anyway, I have a dumb question. Was the Second person of The Trinity only in Jesus (during his incarnate life), or was he still everywhere, (while Jesus was completely the Son)?

Because if he was not everywhere-present, then that means that the period of the 3 days, the Second Person (of the Trinity) took on his original state prior to the incarnation, and then was incarnate again in Jesus. Which makes no sense.

This is assuming that the Holy Spirit did not dwell the dead body of Jesus.

uzzled:uzzled:uzzled:


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## sailorswife (Feb 25, 2004)

ktsone,

I couldn't find an article by Owens in your atonement category. Also, I looked up some commentaries to further understand the Peter passage. I am assuming you are refering to I Pet 3:19 'by whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison&quot;. From the commentaries I have looked at so far they seem to be in agreement that this is not speaking of Christ going to hell after his death on the cross, but as Christ speaking through Noah to the people of his time (who are now spirits in prison). Calvin made a point of asking the question why would Jesus go down to Hell and only preach to those of Noah's time.

ktstone wrote:
&quot;Second, when considering the atonement process we must carefully consider the requiremenst for the punishment of sin. That should resound true in every theologically-sound heart. If we look at the requirements for sin we find that the wages are death. No doubt Christ died. Now, during the process of atonement, what would Christ need ot suffer? Separation from God--is hell (2 Thess 1--I think). &quot; 

I could be wrong here, but the wages of sin is death for all of us right? We will all die because of our sin, though believers will go to be with the Lord and unbelievers to hell. Also I am a bit confused after reading 2 Thes 1:9-19 &quot;These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints ......&quot;. That verse to me seems to mean from the presence of Jesus. Jesus can't be seperated from Jesus right? Another thing is isn't the belief that hell is simply seperation from God called annihalism? That is my question, I thought hell is where those who have rejected God will eternally suffer the wrath of God, not just be seperated from him.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 25, 2004)

[quote:b4755be902][i:b4755be902]Originally posted by ktstone[/i:b4755be902]
Second, when considering the atonement process we must carefully consider the requiremenst for the punishment of sin. That should resound true in every theologically-sound heart. If we look at the requirements for sin we find that the wages are death. No doubt Christ died. Now, during the process of atonement, what would Christ need ot suffer? Separation from God--is hell (2 Thess 1--I think).
[/quote:b4755be902]
As my wife so well put it, Hell is not seperation from God. That is the modern arminian take on it. Hell is standing in the presence of God without a mediator, suffering the infinte wrath of the All-Consuming Fire for eternity. And yes Christ did take this penalty on himself, but not after he died. He suffered the wrath of God in its entirety during the 3 hours of darkness on the cross. That's why he could say &quot;it is finished.&quot;


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## pastorway (Feb 25, 2004)

Yep.....PuritanSailor and sailorswife are right on the money here! Good answers!

Phillip


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## ktstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Thanks for your thoughts. I am interested in why what I stated regarding the 'presence of the Lord' and is considered an Arminian 'take' I hold to all points made at Dort against Arminius (Pelagians/Semi). Please explain what you mean.

Second, the Atonement article was not by Owen...It was by Murry....but it was not what I was thinking about. Obviously this particular thread overlaps with Christology, Soteriology.....If I find it again, I will let you know. 

[Edited on 2-25-2004 by ktstone]


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 25, 2004)

[quote:5f6eb0809f][i:5f6eb0809f]Originally posted by ktstone[/i:5f6eb0809f]
Thanks for your thoughts. I am interested in why what I stated regarding the 'presence of the Lord' and is considered an Arminian 'take' I hold to all points made at Dort against Arminius (Pelagians/Semi). Please explain what you mean.
[/quote:5f6eb0809f]

It's just the common explaination of hell you find in arminian circles. I think this most likely follows because they can't bear the thought that their &quot;all-loving&quot; god would actively torture those whom refused to believe. So instead they just have god boot em out. But that's not the God of Scripture, trampling the wicked with his own feet splattering their blood upon his garments (Isa. 63:3)

[Edited on 2-25-2004 by puritansailor]


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## ktstone (Feb 25, 2004)

I guess my take is that the worst possible thing that could happen yto anyone would be to be without God's grace (common and special). I would consider that hell and 'gnashing of teeth' of sorts. Which is why I mentioned what I did in the above post.

Second, I quickly looked through Wesley's commentary on the subject (1 Pet 3) and he held the same view that you have. I do believe what you mention because that makes biblical sense. I posted the findings on 1pet 3:18-20 up on the website if you want to peruse. 

I just went to commentaries I could find on the web--some very respectable (Calvin, Henry, etc.... some not so to get a well-rounded view of what I could find. Now the issue is synthesizing it all.

Here is the link: http://www.ktstone.com/bible/teachers-terrace/1pet_ch3_vss18-20.htm


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## turmeric (Feb 25, 2004)

Psalm 139


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## Doodle Bug (Feb 26, 2004)

The key thing w/ Joyce Meyers and other Word of Faith teachers is the belief that Jesus physical torute in hell at the hands of Satan is required to be saved. This is completely unbiblcal. There have been a long standing debate in church history if Jesus did indeed go to hell or not, but it is very clear He was not tortured and that His death on the cross paid the price and his resurection showed His victory over death and satan. WoF would have you believe that He snuck out of His cell in hell.


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