# A Poll for Presbyterians (Sorry, Baptists!)



## bookslover (Apr 14, 2008)

OK, fellow Presbyterians: are you a *divine right* Presbyterian - meaning that you believe that Presbyteriansim is the only system of church government taught in the Scriptures, or are you a *best system* Presbyterian - meaning that you believe that Presbyteriansim is just the "best system" of church government (of several) taught in the Bible?


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## raekwon (Apr 14, 2008)

Where's the "neither" option? ;-)

(Not joking, despite the winky.)


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## Devin (Apr 14, 2008)

I voted anyways! We Baptists will not be ignored! (j/k)


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 15, 2008)

I believe that Presbyterianism is the biblical system revealed to us. But that doesn't mean our modern versions of Presbyterianism best reflect NT Presbyterianism. There's always work to be done to improve.


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## fredtgreco (Apr 15, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I believe that Presbyterianism is the biblical system revealed to us. But that doesn't mean our modern versions of Presbyterianism best reflect NT Presbyterianism. There's always work to be done to improve.



Absolutely.


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## Grymir (Apr 15, 2008)

Best System, but I don't believe there are several forms taught in the Bible.


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## bookslover (Apr 15, 2008)

raekwon said:


> Where's the "neither" option? ;-)
> 
> (Not joking, despite the winky.)



There ain't none, Rae. I figure most Presbyterians are gonna pick one or the other...


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## bookslover (Apr 15, 2008)

Devin said:


> I voted anyways! We Baptists will not be ignored! (j/k)



This is the trouble with Baptists. They're always so *cantankerous*!


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## bookslover (Apr 15, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I believe that Presbyterianism is the biblical system revealed to us. But that doesn't mean our modern versions of Presbyterianism best reflect NT Presbyterianism. There's always work to be done to improve.



I agree! Though I'd say that the OPC comes pretty close, more or less.


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## bookslover (Apr 15, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Best System, but I don't believe there are several forms taught in the Bible.



By several forms, I meant basically including Congregationalism and Episcopalianism...


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## Grymir (Apr 15, 2008)

oh O.K., that makes sense. That's a toughy, especially since I know Church History all to well, but, that's also why I think Presbyterianisnm is best.

Nice Poll! - Grymir


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## Christusregnat (Apr 15, 2008)

raekwon said:


> Where's the "neither" option? ;-)
> 
> (Not joking, despite the winky.)



All you vanTilians make me want to 



Adam


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## AV1611 (Apr 15, 2008)

bookslover said:


> Episcopalianism...


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## jaybird0827 (Apr 15, 2008)

Divine right. Scriptural model, commanded by God.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 15, 2008)

I don't believe scripture teaches several systems of church government any more than it teaches several rules for worship. Divine right all the way.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I don't believe scripture teaches several systems of church government any more than it teaches several rules for worship. Divine right all the way.





How can we evaluate whether a system of church government is good or bad if the choice of system is arbitrary in the first place?


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## raekwon (Apr 15, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I believe that Presbyterianism is the biblical system revealed to us. But that doesn't mean our modern versions of Presbyterianism best reflect NT Presbyterianism. There's always work to be done to improve.



This would probably the closest thing to my sentiments as well.

ETA: What I mean is this . . . scripture sets forth rule of the church by elders. This much is plain (I actually held to this when I was a baptist, which I why I then called myself a "baptistic presbyterian" or a "presbyterial baptist"). What I'm not so sure about is the biblical propriety or necessity of the presbytery and General Assembly as higher courts of authority than the local church's session. There is wisdom in such things sometimes, but just like any wise thing that's not necessarily biblical, they can also be abused or become hindrances to the church's mission in some cases.


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## Josiah (Apr 15, 2008)

Divine right all the way.


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## etexas (Apr 15, 2008)

Blush..........


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## AV1611 (Apr 15, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> Divine right. Scriptural model, commanded by God.



Not to start a fight, but I find it very difficult to see how Scripture presecribes the Presbyterian form of government. I find no classis, General Assembly, Moderator, etc in Holy Writ. Nor do I find the election of prebyters by the congregation. 

Might I suggest [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Elders-Every-City-Ordained-Ministry/dp/1842272306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208269513&sr=8-1"]Elders in Every City: The Origin an Role of the Ordained Ministry[/ame] by Roger Beckwith


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> jaybird0827 said:
> 
> 
> > Divine right. Scriptural model, commanded by God.
> ...



I will let someone else give a more comprehensive answer, but I would point out that a Moderator is only the chairman of a meeting, it is not an office like a bishop.


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## AV1611 (Apr 15, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> I will let someone else give a more comprehensive answer, but I would point out that a Moderator is only the chairman of a meeting, it is not an office like a bishop.



I understand mate, I shared a flat with a Presbyterian for a while so know the arguments  I would point out that a bishop (in Anglicanism) is the same office as a presbyter but one that has been consecrated for a wider area of ministry (i.e. same office different role).


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > I will let someone else give a more comprehensive answer, but I would point out that a Moderator is only the chairman of a meeting, it is not an office like a bishop.
> ...



You shared a flat with a Presbyterian...you have my sympathies.


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## CovenantalBaptist (Apr 15, 2008)

I voted too (as a Baptist in a Presbyterian seminary).


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## jawyman (Apr 15, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I believe that Presbyterianism is the biblical system revealed to us. But that doesn't mean our modern versions of Presbyterianism best reflect NT Presbyterianism. There's always work to be done to improve.



 and


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## JBaldwin (Apr 15, 2008)

I didn't vote, because there wasn't an "other" option. I became a presbyterian for a lot of reasons, but one of them was the church government. I can't say that presbyterianism is the perfect answer to what the Scriptures teach, but coupled with the reformed doctrine and the church government, it seemed closest to me to what the Scriptures teach, so I became a presbyterian. 

I do believe in one system taught in Scripture, but I can't say the presybterian church as we know it today has necessarily perfected that.


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## smhbbag (Apr 15, 2008)

I asked in the other thread, without any responses.

I believe that Presbyterian polity (or a close variant) is the only teaching of scripture. So, I can't vote in the Baptist poll, as it is neither Best nor Divine in any way in my opinion. But I can't vote here because I'm a Baptist.

Life gets lonely in the so-called middle


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## JBaldwin (Apr 15, 2008)

smhbbag said:


> I asked in the other thread, without any responses.
> 
> I believe that Presbyterian polity (or a close variant) is the only teaching of scripture. So, I can't vote in the Baptist poll, as it is neither Best nor Divine in any way in my opinion. But I can't vote here because I'm a Baptist.
> 
> Life gets lonely in the so-called middle



You can have my vote.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

smhbbag said:


> I asked in the other thread, without any responses.
> 
> I believe that Presbyterian polity (or a close variant) is the only teaching of scripture. So, I can't vote in the Baptist poll, as it is neither Best nor Divine in any way in my opinion. But I can't vote here because I'm a Baptist.
> 
> Life gets lonely in the so-called middle


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Apr 15, 2008)

smhbbag said:


> I asked in the other thread, without any responses.
> 
> I believe that Presbyterian polity (or a close variant) is the only teaching of scripture. So, I can't vote in the Baptist poll, as it is neither Best nor Divine in any way in my opinion. But I can't vote here because I'm a Baptist.
> 
> Life gets lonely in the so-called middle



So get off the fence and come to the light!


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## Augusta (Apr 15, 2008)

Divine right.


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## danmpem (Apr 15, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> jaybird0827 said:
> 
> 
> > Divine right. Scriptural model, commanded by God.
> ...



Like you, I'm not trying to fight, but I must wonder about something: if there is even a little bit of "it makes most sense to do it this way" when it comes to church offices, General Assembly, etc., then doesn't that, by nature, make the Presbyterian system of church government the "best guess" by my Presbyterian brethren? I'm not trying to pick on them at _all_; in fact, I'm someone who "in the middle" here, as others have noted.


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## bookslover (Apr 15, 2008)

Just for the record - in my own poll - I voted for divine right. I believe that Presbyterianism is the only system of church government taught in Scripture.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 16, 2008)

Um, don't mean to split hairs here, but just HOW presbyterian are we talking here (that is, can we more clearly define the term?) Are we talking general biblical principles or OPC BCO?

I'm pretty much on the 'Divine' bandwagon, but just curious about the above bit.


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## AV1611 (Apr 16, 2008)

danmpem said:


> Like you, I'm not trying to fight, but I must wonder about something: if there is even a little bit of "it makes most sense to do it this way" when it comes to church offices, General Assembly, etc., then doesn't that, by nature, make the Presbyterian system of church government the "best guess" by my Presbyterian brethren? I'm not trying to pick on them at _all_; in fact, I'm someone who "in the middle" here, as others have noted.



The local church I attend has three ministers and one training minister all of which are _presbyters_ and who preach the word and administer the sacraments. They were ordained by an _episcopate_ or _presbyters_ by with the laying on of hands. So in my local church we have a plurality of elders. Is this not similar to presbyterianism? But what if the congregation numbered 25? Would three ministers and one training minister be suitable or is it more senible to have one minister of the word?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 22, 2008)

Here is a catechism on presbyterian church government jus divinum from the classic work on the subject, _Jus Divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici: The Divine Right of Church Government_ by the London Provincial Assembly:



> CONCLUSION.
> 
> A Summary of the preceding Treatise on Church Government,
> BY QUESTION AND ANSWER.
> ...


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