# Is God Converting Muslims through dreams?



## scottmaciver (Apr 11, 2017)

Todd Friel on Wretched uploaded this video a few weeks ago. I heard a missionary speaking in my church, not long after I was converted, who said that many Muslim's were coming to Christ through dreams. I simply accepted what he had said was reality, but I've never heard anyone discuss the question from a Biblical standpoint.

What do all you PB theologians make of the suggestion of God converting Muslims through dreams and of Friel's thoughts on it?


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## earl40 (Apr 11, 2017)

Though I am not a theologian in the strict sense I believe Mr. Friel is spot on in the biblical sense.

PS. I am glad Our Lord gives faith by hearing, in that seeing the video seemed rather pretentious in its presentation from a visual standpoint.


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## Pergamum (Apr 11, 2017)

A needed distinction first.

We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen. 

If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.

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## earl40 (Apr 11, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> A needed distinction first.
> 
> We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen.
> 
> If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.



Curious if you believe these dreams came directly from God without any information about Jesus or scripture beforehand?


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## Pergamum (Apr 11, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Curious if you believe these dreams came directly from God without any information about Jesus or scripture beforehand?


 
I have no idea where they come from.

The possibilities would be (1) God, (2) the dreamer's own conscience/mind, or (3) the devil or his demons.

Muslims do have a version of the Prophet Jesus in their Qur'an and Hadith. He is the only Prophet to have had a supernatural birth, life, and death, and who is without sin. But I'd hate to give any credit to this poisonous book. 

And sometimes they hear about what Christians believe. On one occasion a man stopped his business and asked me if I had a bible and could read the first portions of John's Gospel chapter 1 because he heard a friend say this told about Jesus. So, we ended up reading and talking for an hour.

The Covenanters also had dreams. None of them doubted the ordinary means of the Word or Sola Scripture.


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## scottmaciver (Apr 11, 2017)

An important distinction Pregamum. However, the suggestion both in the video and from those I have heard speaking, is that people are not only persuaded to seek out more information, but that they are converted through dreams.


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## Pergamum (Apr 11, 2017)

scottmaciver said:


> An important distinction Pregamum. However, the suggestion both in the video and from those I have heard speaking, is that people are not only persuaded to seek out more information, but that they are converted through dreams.



I think there is probably a distinction to be made in most all examples I have heard or I have seen personally. 

Nobody I know says that the dream itself converted them. 

One study of 2 different people-groups I know of details how 15-20% of new converts credit a dream as having profound spiritual impact on their journey of seeking.


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## Pergamum (Apr 11, 2017)

Here are two examples of dreams

http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/sari-saat

She has since passed away. And then her ministry partner's testimony,

http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/elis-pramono

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## JTB.SDG (Apr 11, 2017)

We want to stand for the word of God. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So we think "dreams" are weird and don't fit into any kind of doctrinal paradigm. I get this. But one passage that really struck me this last Christmas was the star that appears to the magi. Have you ever really thought about what in the world is going on here. The star appearing to them and getting them to Jerusalem is weird enough. But then how about when the star departs from Jerusalem, and leads them 6 miles down the road to Bethlehem, and seems to hover over a small house? Okay, this is weird. Really, really weird. Too weird also for the teachers of Israel, who evidently didn't even both to make the 6 mile journey. What I'm trying to say is that there's danger on both sides of the question.

I think Pergamum, your distinction is really good: there's a difference between God using dreams and God converting people through dreams. I heard first hand from a young woman from the Middle East, from a strong Muslim family, the story of her testimony. It involved a powerful dream about hell, and Jesus; but the dream wasn't what converted her. The dream got her to church, where she gradually came to understand more and more, and somewhere along the way, low and behold, she believed. I really appreciated, especially, how at one point, she even shared (in her testimony) how she still continued to struggle with doubts about Jesus, even after the dream. This seemed to have the ring of truth to me. It wasn't some magic dream experience that solved all her problems or even got her saved. But wrestling through her doubts, learning more about Christ through the ministry of the church (this was actually John Stott's church), and I'm sure being prayed for a ton, she put her faith in Christ. I loved hearing her story and have no reason to doubt it.

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## Cymro (Apr 11, 2017)

At family worship this evening I was struck with a verse in our reading of Acts 2, "they that gladly received the word were baptised." It is only through the word that we have knowledge,else ignorant believing is presumption. I would not limit God by our limitations yet He has ordained means. The entrance of thy word give the light. He may provoke to seek by using a dream, but there must be knowledge of who one believes in, and the necessity to do so.

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## OPC'n (Apr 11, 2017)

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." People must hear the Gospel first then......


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## jambo (Apr 11, 2017)

I have heard many instances of this among Muslim communities who all seem to be located within the 10/40 window. Whereas I have never heard of Muslims within Islamic communities in say the UK having such dreams. I have a friend who is very much involved in work within the Islamic world and we have discussed this a number of times and he feels that such conversions seem genuine. Like many or most folk on the PB, I am a cessationist and it has caused me concerns. It is not the norm in places where there is an established church but in closed countries where the only way people may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church. I cannot explain it and it doesn't fit in my theological framework but if it is a genuine work of God then all glory to Him.

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## deathtolife (Apr 11, 2017)

I am not sure if it pertains exactly to the video but I believe there are overtones. 

In this video at 7:44 a question is asked regarding knowing Jesus without a Bible.

After Nichols, Thomas and Sproul, Ian Hamilton answers the question from a different angle where I think it may pertain to the OP.


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## Reformed Roman (Apr 11, 2017)

Is it possible to hear the gospel and the Word of God, revealed by God, in a dream? And therefore converted through the Word of God, directly by God? At least in today's era where some may argue many spiritual gifts have ceased?


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## ZackF (Apr 11, 2017)

How does dreaming constitute a spiritual gift?


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## MW (Apr 12, 2017)

Look at the content of the dreams as they have been related. If a preacher taught what was in these dreams no sound evangelical would consider the message sufficient to convert anyone. "Come to me." To whom? Do they know Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God, our prophet, priest, and king, who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures? Their dreams might have manifested some flow of thought and feeling in which they were already moving, but it did not reveal anything concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. These dreams are not from God, and a faithful pastor who cares for their souls would warn them from placing any faith in their dreams because of the danger of delusion and fanaticism.

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## Josh Williamson (Apr 12, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> A needed distinction first.
> 
> We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen.
> 
> If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.



A very good distinction. 

I'm yet to meet someone who says, "I was converted by a dream." Although, I have met many former Muslims who have said, "I had a dream that caused me to start thinking about Jesus and Christianity."

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## Jack K (Apr 12, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord.



This is exactly what we too experienced on the mission field. People wouldn't say the dream converted them; they would report the dream caused them to pay attention to the gospel they had already heard or to learn more about Jesus. They ended up putting their faith in Christ, not in the dream. But the dream helped get them to that point.

I don't think this is particularly a Muslim thing. I think it's common in many cultures where people attach significance to their dreams.

Should we say with certainty that such a dream "came from God?" No, I think we should avoid claiming to know exactly how the Spirit has worked to bring an individual around to listening to the gospel, and if we're going to speak about messages from God we should be pointing people to the Bible and to Bible preaching. But God does use life events to get people's attention, and sometimes a dream may be one of those events.


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## Stephen L Smith (Apr 12, 2017)

There is a helpful discussion on this in Calvin's Institutes. Calvin brings out 2 key things:
1. Word snd Spirit belong inseparately together. Therefore any dreams etc - apart from the Word - should be treated with real suspicion.
2. Calvin warns that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14. Therefore apart from the Word, how does one know if the dream came from God or Satan?

Calvin's Institutes Bk 1, ch 9


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## earl40 (Apr 12, 2017)

jambo said:


> I have heard many instances of this among Muslim communities who all seem to be located within the 10/40 window. Whereas I have never heard of Muslims within Islamic communities in say the UK having such dreams. I have a friend who is very much involved in work within the Islamic world and we have discussed this a number of times and he feels that such conversions seem genuine. Like many or most folk on the PB, I am a cessationist and it has caused me concerns. It is not the norm in places where there is an established church but in closed countries where the only way people may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church. I cannot explain it and it doesn't fit in my theological framework but if it is a genuine work of God then all glory to Him.



Seems like you explained it well in that they "may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church."


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## earl40 (Apr 12, 2017)

deathtolife said:


> I am not sure if it pertains exactly to the video but I believe there are overtones.
> 
> In this video at 7:44 a question is asked regarding knowing Jesus without a Bible.
> 
> After Nichols, Thomas and Sproul, Ian Hamilton answers the question from a different angle where I think it may pertain to the OP.



So the question of...Can God work out of the ordinary means, which He ordained, to spread The Gospel possible? May I answer humbly...no...because whatever He ordains comes to pass, which includes the "ordinary means". This of course is not the answer given in the video. In my most humble opinion this is not the proper use of the word "cessationism" as heard in the video.


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## Dachaser (Apr 12, 2017)

JTB.SDG said:


> We want to stand for the word of God. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So we think "dreams" are weird and don't fit into any kind of doctrinal paradigm. I get this. But one passage that really struck me this last Christmas was the star that appears to the magi. Have you ever really thought about what in the world is going on here. The star appearing to them and getting them to Jerusalem is weird enough. But then how about when the star departs from Jerusalem, and leads them 6 miles down the road to Bethlehem, and seems to hover over a small house? Okay, this is weird. Really, really weird. Too weird also for the teachers of Israel, who evidently didn't even both to make the 6 mile journey. What I'm trying to say is that there's danger on both sides of the question.
> 
> I think Pergamum, your distinction is really good: there's a difference between God using dreams and God converting people through dreams. I heard first hand from a young woman from the Middle East, from a strong Muslim family, the story of her testimony. It involved a powerful dream about hell, and Jesus; but the dream wasn't what converted her. The dream got her to church, where she gradually came to understand more and more, and somewhere along the way, low and behold, she believed. I really appreciated, especially, how at one point, she even shared (in her testimony) how she still continued to struggle with doubts about Jesus, even after the dream. This seemed to have the ring of truth to me. It wasn't some magic dream experience that solved all her problems or even got her saved. But wrestling through her doubts, learning more about Christ through the ministry of the church (this was actually John Stott's church), and I'm sure being prayed for a ton, she put her faith in Christ. I loved hearing her story and have no reason to doubt it.



Think that the Lord is currently using whatever means available to get the message of Jesus into closed off Muslim areas, so would be using Satellite/Radio/Internet, and dreams to accomplish that getting goen. Also think the dreams prepare the way for the message to go out to them, as its the scriptures used by the Holy Spirit that saves lost sinners, as have heard testimony from missionaries they came to a village, and was met by Chief, who told them had a dream telling himto wait to receive people of the Book!


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## earl40 (Apr 12, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Think that the Lord is currently using whatever means available to get the message of Jesus into closed off Muslim areas, so would be using Satellite/Radio/Internet, and dreams to accomplish that getting goen. Also think the dreams prepare the way for the message to go out to them, as its the scriptures used by the Holy Spirit that saves lost sinners, as have heard testimony from missionaries they came to a village, and was met by Chief, who told them had a dream telling himto wait to receive people of the Book!



The unmitigated "dream" way has passed, as believed by those who are consistent cessationists.


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## Dachaser (Apr 12, 2017)

earl40 said:


> The unmitigated "dream" way has passed, as believed by those who are consistent cessationists.


God would still able to do that, but would not be the normative way he operates, just as while none today are giftedto heal/do miracles. God can and still does at times!


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## earl40 (Apr 12, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> God would still able to do that, but would not be the normative way he operates, just as while none today are giftedto heal/do miracles. God can and still does at times!



Able is one thing, and doing something in a way He does not ordain is another. Of course He is "able" but He cannot act contrary to how He said He will act.


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## Pergamum (Apr 13, 2017)

The Confession itself says



> God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, *yet is free to work without*,



But, we don't even have to posit this. The ordinary means ARE being used for conversion. But God may send many strange providences into this world. He did so in the times of the Covenanters, and he does so in the unreached world as well.


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## MW (Apr 13, 2017)

What is God supposed to have done during the times of the Covenanters?


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## Pergamum (Apr 13, 2017)

https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-...1492067422&sr=8-1&keywords=milne++westminster

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## MW (Apr 13, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-...1492067422&sr=8-1&keywords=milne++westminster



Is there something in particular in this book you would like me to consider in answer to my question?


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## Pergamum (Apr 13, 2017)

Rutherford, Alexandar Peden, and John Wishart all report providential dreams. The Reformed usually do not call these men liars.


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## MW (Apr 13, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> Rutherford, Alexandar Peden, and John Wishart all report providential dreams. The Reformed usually do not call these men liars.



First, everything that comes to pass is providential, including dreams. Secondly, What did these "providential dreams" have to do with being converted? You do not appear to be shedding any light on the subject; you are only casting shadows.

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## earl40 (Apr 13, 2017)

OPC'n said:


> Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." People must hear the Gospel first then......



May I add that today people would NEVER have a dream about Jesus if they NEVER EVER herd of Him. What I find interesting is that those who go out and preach The Gospel in Our Lord's steed (Pastor Missionaries) seem to be degrading their own vocation The Lord has ordained them to do.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 13, 2017)

Can faith come from reading and not just hearing? Just a side question.


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## earl40 (Apr 13, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Can faith come from reading and not just hearing? Just a side question.



Of course. Ask any deaf person who has reads sermons from a Pastor.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 13, 2017)

So would that mean faith could come from sight, and that sight being God revealing Himself to a person's brain in a dream, and the Word being Jesus? Almost like Paul immediately calling Jesus Lord when he encountered Him going to Damascus. I'm not sure where I stand, I'm just trying to be as logical as possible.


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## earl40 (Apr 14, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So would that mean faith could come from sight, and that sight being God revealing Himself to a person's brain in a dream, and the Word being Jesus? Almost like Paul immediately calling Jesus Lord when he encountered Him going to Damascus. I'm not sure where I stand, I'm just trying to be as logical as possible.



The logical thing to believe is that God uses human Pastors mediators as scripture says...

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Concerning Paul and his conversion I believe this has been addressed earlier here in this thread.


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## Dachaser (Apr 14, 2017)

Except that He did state that he would do signs and wonders to cofirm the validity of the Gospel message, and while He did that in time of the Apostles, would He not still lay open Him doing that in areas and regions where Jesus has been closed off so far pretty much?

Not the normal means and way, but he still can if he elected to get the message outto lands and peoples in the dark still regarding the person and work of Jesus?


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## earl40 (Apr 14, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Except that He did state that he would do signs and wonders to cofirm the validity of the Gospel message, and while He did that in time of the Apostles, would He not still lay open Him doing that in areas and regions where Jesus has been closed off so far pretty much?
> 
> Not the normal means and way, but he still can if he elected to get the message outto lands and peoples in the dark still regarding the person and work of Jesus?



He can (has the ability) but He has ordained that it be not so today, as per my biblical reference in post #36.


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## Steve Curtis (Apr 14, 2017)

earl40 said:


> per my biblical reference in post #36.



They cannot "call on Him" or "believe in Him" apart from the preaching of the Word. However, that doesn't mean that they cannot be drawn to Him, or incited to inquire about Him through other means (whether dreams in the Majority World or conversations at work around the water cooler in Orlando...)


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## earl40 (Apr 14, 2017)

kainos01 said:


> They cannot "call on Him" or "believe in Him" apart from the preaching of the Word. However, that doesn't mean that they cannot be drawn to Him, or incited to inquire about Him through other means (whether dreams in the Majority World or conversations at work around the water cooler in Orlando...)



Mostly sounds like ordinary means to me. Though I would take exception if one believes God gives a dream directly to a person without ever hearing of Jesus. If that be so any words, or images, conveyed would be divine revelation and could be added to the cannon.


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## Dachaser (Apr 14, 2017)

kainos01 said:


> They cannot "call on Him" or "believe in Him" apart from the preaching of the Word. However, that doesn't mean that they cannot be drawn to Him, or incited to inquire about Him through other means (whether dreams in the Majority World or conversations at work around the water cooler in Orlando...)


The dreams would be preparation for them to receive the message of Jesus, correct?


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## OPC'n (Apr 14, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So would that mean faith could come from sight, and that sight being God revealing Himself to a person's brain in a dream, and the Word being Jesus? Almost like Paul immediately calling Jesus Lord when he encountered Him going to Damascus. I'm not sure where I stand, I'm just trying to be as logical as possible.



Are you asking if God plays out the Gospel to people like a movie in their dreams? I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible. Scripture states you have to "hear" (either by someone telling you what Scripture says or by reading what Scriptures says). The days of God talking to man audibly either while you're awake or asleep is over. God might press upon you Scriptures you have already heard via the Holy Spirit, but you need to hear his word first for that to happen.


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## Dachaser (Apr 15, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Able is one thing, and doing something in a way He does not ordain is another. Of course He is "able" but He cannot act contrary to how He said He will act.


God can at times still do whatever he wishes to in order to glorify Himself and exalt Jesus, such as heal, do a miracle, have a vision granted, correct? Not the norm, but he has not ceased any and all of that has he?


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## Philip (Apr 16, 2017)

A heuristic: when questioning whether a dream or other unusual event is from God, one should ask whether it is pointing to Scripture and the ordinary preaching of the Word and the faithful administration of the sacraments or whether it is simply drawing attention to itself. If the dream draws attention to itself, then it cannot be from God, but if it is pointing someone to places where they can hear the Gospel, my question is where else could it be from if not from God? We don't have to be continuationists to think that yes, sometimes God may use a dream to point someone toward the preaching of the Word. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to St Augustine.

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## MW (Apr 16, 2017)

Philip said:


> one should ask whether it is pointing to Scripture and the ordinary preaching of the Word and the faithful administration of the sacraments or whether it is simply drawing attention to itself.



Question: What did Jesus look like in this dream? The idea of Jesus appearing in any form is delusive.

Why stop at dreams? What about thoughts? What about feelings? Afterall, these are the psychological source of dreams. If God speaks through dreams then He speaks through thoughts. Then one may as well have prophecy, especially since the dream served a prophetic purpose in the history of revelation. The more we examine the dream the more we see that "openness" to it requires a continuationist perspective which believes in dreams as a vehicle of revelation from God.

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## Philip (Apr 17, 2017)

MW said:


> Question: What did Jesus look like in this dream? The idea of Jesus appearing in any form is delusive.



I didn't use this as an example. In fact the only example I gave was Augustine.

If dreams, thoughts, and feelings are part of the ordinary course of things, then God can use them as part of the ordinary providence that leads people into the kingdom. And if one is pointed toward the word, I fail to see how it isn't from God.


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## MW (Apr 17, 2017)

Philip said:


> I didn't use this as an example. In fact the only example I gave was Augustine.
> 
> If dreams, thoughts, and feelings are part of the ordinary course of things, then God can use them as part of the ordinary providence that leads people into the kingdom. And if one is pointed toward the word, I fail to see how it isn't from God.



A pamphlet is a part of ordinary providence. We would not say the pamphlet which was used as part of an individual's conversion came from God.

The Muslims who are reported as being converted are claiming to have dreams in which Jesus tells them to come to Him.

Augustine's experiences are no rule to us.

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## Dachaser (Apr 17, 2017)

Philip said:


> A heuristic: when questioning whether a dream or other unusual event is from God, one should ask whether it is pointing to Scripture and the ordinary preaching of the Word and the faithful administration of the sacraments or whether it is simply drawing attention to itself. If the dream draws attention to itself, then it cannot be from God, but if it is pointing someone to places where they can hear the Gospel, my question is where else could it be from if not from God? We don't have to be continuationists to think that yes, sometimes God may use a dream to point someone toward the preaching of the Word. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to St Augustine.


The key here would be as you well stated, in that the dreams to the Muslims would be to guide and lead them to a person who would give them the message of Jesus and the Cross, and not have God give them the message in the dream!


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## Cymro (Apr 17, 2017)

It is true that godly men have had providential guidance through dreams. I think of Rev John Welsh who about to mount his horse, foot in stirrup, paused for a time in deep thought and prophesied that one of their number would die that day. Again Rev Lachlan Mackenzie was noted for his utterances of things that would shortly come to pass. But that is distinctly different to Muslims being converted through dreams. The examples given were very close to God and had an ear for him, and were those whom the Rev John Kennedy stated enjoyed the intimacy of Ps 25:14. Such also were the Men of the North.
I have difficulty in accepting that one can be converted through a dream. Certainly someone can be provoked to discontentment with life and agitated to seek an answer, and in providence be brought into contact with the word of life. But for an ignorant soul bereft of any basic knowledge of the way of salvation, to embrace a dream like phantom Christ is to dispense with scriptural means.
The Rev Ichabod Spencer , early 19th century, in his book Pastors Sketches, which examples how to deal with anxious souls( a must read , particularly for Pastors), gives an example of a woman who had visions of a magnificent bird of paradise in her bedroom with an unearthly globe of light. From that she deduced that God had forgiven her. He showed her that it was no foundation for her belief and assurance. He concludes by stating this," all such things are to be attributed to the power of imagination and excited nerves. Religion has nothing to do with them........Religion is taught in the Bible. Ignorance and nerves should not attempt to add to it. The east wind is not a good Minister. Many of its doctrines are very incorrect......There can be no security against the worst and wildest errors, but by a close adherence to the word of God, to teach us what religion is."
Maybe my experience is limited in this field, but I feel safer anchored to the ordained and biblical means.


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## Philip (Apr 17, 2017)

MW said:


> The Muslims who are reported as being converted are claiming to have dreams in which Jesus tells them to come to Him.



In nearly every case I've heard reported from a credible source, the dreams have been pointing either to Scripture itself or to churches with faithful ministers--even in countries where the majority of churches are liberal.



MW said:


> A pamphlet is a part of ordinary providence. We would not say the pamphlet which was used as part of an individual's conversion came from God.



Can't we? God sends people, God sends dreams, why can't God send pamphlets? We don't have to deny the reality of secondary causation to give credit where it's due. The supernatural work of Providence looks quite mundane to the world. Why shouldn't we think that God is providentially sending these things?



MW said:


> Augustine's experiences are no rule to us.



No one's experiences are a rule. I was just giving a well-known example that's hardly out of the ordinary.


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## earl40 (Apr 17, 2017)

Cymro said:


> It is true that godly men have had providential guidance through dreams. I think of Rev John Welsh who about to mount his horse, foot in stirrup, paused for a time in deep thought and prophesied that one of their number would die that day. Again Rev Lachlan Mackenzie was noted for his utterances of things that would shortly come to pass. But that is distinctly different to Muslims being converted through dreams.



May I choose to not believe this is true, and still be regarded as a brother? If these prophesy's were recorded word for word why could we not include them in the cannon? I hate to be thought of a hard headed dogmatic man in this area, but unless one can answer the second question I shall stay a dogmatic hard headed total cessationist.


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## Cymro (Apr 17, 2017)

Your brotherhood is not dependent on an alternative view but on your union with Christ, brother Earl! The point I was making Earl was, that there is a great difference in someone without any biblical knowledge or the bare rudiments of Christianity being converted through a dream, and the experience of mature doctrinal Presbyterians who suffered for their faith, having experiences of God's guidance in natural affairs. These men walked with God, and their communion in the spiritual realm is above and beyond my poor attainments regrettably. The canon of scripture is closed, but these actions of providence were not for public theological instruction but geared to personal circumstances. One could say that when we have startling answers to prayer, then they too could be inscripturated, but they are personal dealings. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God is still my position, but there are things that are inexplicable. My concurrence with the Rev Spencer's conclusion above remains.

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## MW (Apr 17, 2017)

Philip said:


> In nearly every case I've heard reported from a credible source, the dreams have been pointing either to Scripture itself or to churches with faithful ministers--even in countries where the majority of churches are liberal.



Perhaps do a google search on "Muslims" + "converted" + "dreams," and see what comes up.



Philip said:


> Why shouldn't we think that God is providentially sending these things?



God providentially sends everything that comes into our lives. To say He has sent one thing over and above another is to lay claim to something "special." Where it is a matter of divine knowledge, something which comes from God and is special is called "special revelation." Cessationists teach that God has ceased to give "special revelation."


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## Dachaser (Apr 18, 2017)

MW said:


> Perhaps do a google search on "Muslims" + "converted" + "dreams," and see what comes up.
> 
> 
> 
> God providentially sends everything that comes into our lives. To say He has sent one thing over and above another is to lay claim to something "special." Where it is a matter of divine knowledge, something which comes from God and is special is called "special revelation." Cessationists teach that God has ceased to give "special revelation."


God can still though choose to send a vision/dream, do a healing or a miracle, as while not the normal and expected thing, he can still choose to intervene when he deems it is best, correct?


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## MW (Apr 18, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> God can still though choose to send a vision/dream, do a healing or a miracle, as while not the normal and expected thing, he can still choose to intervene when he deems it is best, correct?



No; that is incorrect. If you are bound up to ordinary providence then the dream, healing, etc., will not be placed on the level of "miracle" in the biblical sense. Miracles in the biblical sense function as signs. They are intricately tied up with special revelation. This has ceased so far as cessationists are concerned. There is also a common use of the word "miracle" as related to ordinary providence because God's works of providence are higher than we can search out; but we only speak of "miracle" in this sense as related to secondary causation. A commitment to ordinary secondary causation requires us to acknowledge, discern, and use the means when speaking of "miracle" in this sense.

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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2017)

Cymro said:


> These men walked with God, and their communion in the spiritual realm is above and beyond my poor attainments regrettably.



May I ask if the "mature doctrinal Presbyterian men" experienced something like the "the servant of the man" below in your opinion? Now do not get me wrong in that I do believe a such Pastors have a high calling and I do respect them greatly, but to think they have some _direct unmitigated revelation_ from God is to say _special revelation_ is continuing. 

5 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.


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## Dachaser (Apr 19, 2017)

MW said:


> No; that is incorrect. If you are bound up to ordinary providence then the dream, healing, etc., will not be placed on the level of "miracle" in the biblical sense. Miracles in the biblical sense function as signs. They are intricately tied up with special revelation. This has ceased so far as cessationists are concerned. There is also a common use of the word "miracle" as related to ordinary providence because God's works of providence are higher than we can search out; but we only speak of "miracle" in this sense as related to secondary causation. A commitment to ordinary secondary causation requires us to acknowledge, discern, and use the means when speaking of "miracle" in this sense.


So say a person has cancer, or some other disease, and the people praying over them to have God heal them, if the Lord does grant that request, then would be under providence? Know that the norm would be that the person would die from cancer if inoperable, but if God chooses to heal them?


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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> So say a person has cancer, or some other disease, and the people praying over them to have God heal them, if the Lord does grant that request, then would be under providence? Know that the norm would be that the person would die from cancer if inoperable, but if God chooses to heal them?



If God chooses to heal a person of cancer today He will use ordinary means which includes surgery, chemotherapy, or the natural defenses we all have in our bodies.

On a personal note we recently had a nephew die of brain cancer and there were numerous people who prayed for a miracle healing in the in "the biblical sense" as Rev. Winzer noted above. I prayed for healing in the "ordinary providence" of how God works today, while also praying if this was not to be then take him in a peaceful way. Now I know this will sound crass to many in that I did not ask God for a miracle in the way Jesus healed, though I did indeed ask for healing in the ordinary way He works today.


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## Dachaser (Apr 19, 2017)

earl40 said:


> If God chooses to heal a person of cancer today He will use ordinary means which includes surgery, chemotherapy, or the natural defenses we all have in our bodies.
> 
> On a personal note we recently had a nephew die of brain cancer and there were numerous people who prayed for a miracle healing in the in "the biblical sense" as Rev. Winzer noted above. I prayed for healing in the "ordinary providence" of how God works today, while also praying if this was not to be then take him in a peaceful way. Now I know this will sound crass to many in that I did not ask God for a miracle in the way Jesus healed, though I did indeed ask for healing in the ordinary way He works today.


Do Think though that God still does heal today, mainly by medicine, surgery etc, but also that we cannot put God in a box, as he is still free to heal if it fits into His plans and purposes!


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## MW (Apr 19, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> So say a person has cancer, or some other disease, and the people praying over them to have God heal them, if the Lord does grant that request, then would be under providence? Know that the norm would be that the person would die from cancer if inoperable, but if God chooses to heal them?



That is ordinary providence. It is a kind providence, and will prove to be very gracious if the person goes on to glorify the Lord with the time he has been given; but it is ordinary providence nonetheless. The prayer was an important part of the kindness of this providence, and the answer to the prayer was a blessing as well as an encouragement to seek the Lord with all one's heart, but all part of the ordinary providence of God which is marvellous in itself.

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## earl40 (Apr 19, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Do Think though that God still does heal today, mainly by medicine, surgery etc, but also that we cannot put God in a box, as he is still free to heal if it fits into His plans and purposes!



Also as a side note I have worked 34 years in a hospital, and have never seen a miracle in any way Jesus performed His signs and wonders. 

One of my all time favorite post on this subject was by Pastor Ben which many gasp at but the point stands to his story..." Today in class one of the chaplains wanted us to go around the table and share a miracle that we'd witnessed. As it turned out, I was the last person to have a turn. These guys were saying things like, "The things they can do here with prosthetics... that's a miracle." and "A baby." and "The beauty of the sunrise."

After all that drivel, I had to swallow some bile, and then I flatly said that I'd never witnessed a miracle and that neither had they, and that instead of cheapening the meaning of what truly is miraculous by attributing the label to amazing and wonderful providences, we should just be honest and say that we've not seen a miracle. That way we retain our credibility instead of sounding like sentimental girls. 
That didn't go over too well. So then I said, "ok... a mother's love." Then they were happy again."


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## Pilgrim (Apr 20, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Of course. Ask any deaf person who has reads sermons from a Pastor.



Only sermons? Not reading the Bible or some other Christian literature?


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## earl40 (Apr 20, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> Only sermons? Not reading the Bible or some other Christian literature?



So are you asking that people come to faith other than preaching as Romans 10:14-15 says?


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## Dachaser (Apr 21, 2017)

MW said:


> That is ordinary providence. It is a kind providence, and will prove to be very gracious if the person goes on to glorify the Lord with the time he has been given; but it is ordinary providence nonetheless. The prayer was an important part of the kindness of this providence, and the answer to the prayer was a blessing as well as an encouragement to seek the Lord with all one's heart, but all part of the ordinary providence of God which is marvellous in itself.


Thanks for the clarrification, so what would you consider to be a real miracle then? Something such as causing someone blind from birth to now see?

And per the scriptures, we should still be seeking the God for a healing, as proscribed by James?


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## Dachaser (Apr 21, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Also as a side note I have worked 34 years in a hospital, and have never seen a miracle in any way Jesus performed His signs and wonders.
> 
> One of my all time favorite post on this subject was by Pastor Ben which many gasp at but the point stands to his story..." Today in class one of the chaplains wanted us to go around the table and share a miracle that we'd witnessed. As it turned out, I was the last person to have a turn. These guys were saying things like, "The things they can do here with prosthetics... that's a miracle." and "A baby." and "The beauty of the sunrise."
> 
> ...


We are still commanded by James though to have the sick come forward to be prayed over, and the Lord can still heal at times, but would agree the usual means are the ways that he chooses to work through!


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## earl40 (Apr 21, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> We are still commanded by James though to have the sick come forward to be prayed over, and the Lord can still heal at times, but would agree the usual means are the ways that he chooses to work through!



"Usual" meaning ordinary means yes, and not unusual as was done by Jesus and the apostles.


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## MW (Apr 21, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Thanks for the clarrification, so what would you consider to be a real miracle then? Something such as causing someone blind from birth to now see?



The hand of God is at work in the things He has created and is upholding by the word of His power. This is a "real miracle" in itself.

A "miracle" in the extraordinary sense of the term simply refers to a work of God "without," "above," or "against" the ordinary means by which He does something.



Dachaser said:


> And per the scriptures, we should still be seeking the God for a healing, as proscribed by James?



Do you mean "prescribed?"

We should still seek healing of our bodies, but in the ordinary way, not in the extraordinary way prescribed by James when the gift of healing was still present.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 21, 2017)

earl40 said:


> So are you asking that people come to faith other than preaching as Romans 10:14-15 says?



I believe the question is clear enough. Is it your position that no one can come to faith by reading the Bible? 

What about reading a sermon in a book?


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## earl40 (Apr 21, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> I believe the question is clear enough. Is it your position that no one can come to faith by reading the Bible?
> 
> What about reading a sermon in a book?



My question pertains to what God says in His word. Your assumption says that the answer to that question is that people can come to faith by other means other than what Romans 10:14-15 teaches how people come to faith.


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## Dachaser (Apr 22, 2017)

earl40 said:


> My question pertains to what God says in His word. Your assumption says that the answer to that question is that people can come to faith by other means other than what Romans 10:14-15 teaches how people come to faith.


Think the point was that God can use dreams/visions to reach people for the sake of the Gospel, and direct towards where they can receive the scriptures by a missionary, TV, radio etc...


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## Pergamum (Apr 22, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Think the point was that God can use dreams/visions to reach people for the sake of the Gospel, and direct towards where they can receive the scriptures by a missionary, TV, radio etc...



If Acts 10 is a biblical precedent, it appears that Cornelius' dream was preparatory. He was not saved by the dream, but was open to the messenger (Peter) who came to him. The reports of many Muslims who have come to faith mirrors this biblical pattern.


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## Dachaser (Apr 22, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> If Acts 10 is a biblical precedent, it appears that Cornelius' dream was preparatory. He was not saved by the dream, but was open to the messenger (Peter) who came to him. The reports of many Muslims who have come to faith mirrors this biblical pattern.


This was the same way that I see God today using things such as dream/visions among Muslims today.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 22, 2017)

I would just believe the testimonies as true regardless of exactly how the conversions happen. Maybe they would say the dream led them to a preacher, maybe they would say the dream converted them. I would accept their testimony regardless of my interpretation.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 22, 2017)

In college my wife had a professor who was with Muslims for 4 years. He said God used the norm for their culture to lead them to Christianity. In this culture it was normal for people to have dreams and see significance in them. She said they were dreams though that led them to the things of God, and not dreams of God Himself. For example, a Muslim dreamed about a yellow book he passed by at a storefront a few days earlier. He went back to buy it and it was the Bible.


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## Pergamum (Apr 22, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> In college my wife had a professor who was with Muslims for 4 years. He said God used the norm for their culture to lead them to Christianity. In this culture it was normal for people to have dreams and see significance in them. She said they were dreams though that led them to the things of God, and not dreams of God Himself. For example, a Muslim dreamed about a yellow book he passed by at a storefront a few days earlier. He went back to buy it and it was the Bible.



Yet some on this board (most of which have no significant experience in the Muslim world) would rather believe these missionaries and believers are liars or deluded and state categorically that none of this happens.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Apr 22, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> Yet some on this board (most of which have no significant experience in the Muslim world) would rather believe these missionaries and believers are liars or deluded and state categorically that none of this happens.


Really, Perg? I think this is a wee bit hyperbolic and unfair.


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## Pergamum (Apr 22, 2017)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Really, Perg? I think this is a wee bit hyperbolic and unfair.


There is really no way around it. Those who report these things (whether they be missionaries or the Muslim-background believers themselves) must, for the sake of the theological grid of some, be labeled as either lying or deluded or at least exaggerating a bit. After all, God doesn't work that way.

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## earl40 (Apr 24, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> There is really no way around it. Those who report these things (whether they be missionaries or the Muslim-background believers themselves) must, for the sake of the theological grid of some, be labeled as either lying or deluded or at least exaggerating a bit. After all, God doesn't work that way.



I would not say they are "lying or deluded" at all. I am saying they had SOME exposure to Jesus to precipitate the dream.


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## Pergamum (Apr 24, 2017)

earl40 said:


> I would not say they are "lying or deluded" at all. I am saying they had SOME exposure to Jesus to precipitate the dream.



Ah...ok....thanks. Are you willing to say that this exposure might be with the imperfect descriptions of the Prophet Jesus as found in the Qur'an? Because honestly, that is the only previous exposure that it seems like some of them have had. Or maybe news that other people around the globe worship this Jesus as God?


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## Cymro (Apr 24, 2017)

Interestingly there is a converted Muslim in a conservative London Church, who has a remarkable testimony. On reading his Koran he noticed that Jesus was mentioned more times than Mohamed, and that set him wondering why that was so. That problem motivated him to acquire a Bible in order to read about this Jesus. This led to his conversion.


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## earl40 (Apr 24, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> Ah...ok....thanks. Are you willing to say that this exposure might be with the imperfect descriptions of the Prophet Jesus as found in the Qur'an? Because honestly, that is the only previous exposure that it seems like some of them have had. Or maybe news that other people around the globe worship this Jesus as God?



I would say they may have had a dream about Jesus, but I also would say that dream would not include any direct implantation (like in Matthew 2:12) by God to point that person to Jesus. *If* any dream came like this one would be correct in adding this to scripture.


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## Dachaser (Apr 24, 2017)

Pergamum said:


> There is really no way around it. Those who report these things (whether they be missionaries or the Muslim-background believers themselves) must, for the sake of the theological grid of some, be labeled as either lying or deluded or at least exaggerating a bit. After all, God doesn't work that way.


You do make a valid point here, for if one states and holds to God doing nothing today out side of His normative ways to reach and save the lost...


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## earl40 (Apr 24, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> You do make a valid point here, for if one states and holds to God doing nothing today out side of His normative ways to reach and save the lost...



Which is the proper view of cessationism.


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## Dachaser (Apr 24, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Which is the proper view of cessationism.


Except that was not what even the Puritans and other reformed as held, as even those such as a Jonathen edwards seem to see the Holy spirit at times and for God's puepose doing things "outsie the norm"


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## Pilgrim (Apr 24, 2017)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Can faith come from reading and not just hearing? Just a side question.





earl40 said:


> Of course. Ask any deaf person who has reads sermons from a Pastor.





Pilgrim said:


> Only sermons? Not reading the Bible or some other Christian literature?





earl40 said:


> So are you asking that people come to faith other than preaching as Romans 10:14-15 says?





Pilgrim said:


> I believe the question is clear enough. Is it your position that no one can come to faith by reading the Bible?
> 
> What about reading a sermon in a book?





earl40 said:


> My question pertains to what God says in His word. Your assumption says that the answer to that question is that people can come to faith by other means other than what Romans 10:14-15 teaches how people come to faith.



If you're not saying that one who reads the Bible (which is God-breathed, written by the ultimate preacher) and responds with repenting of his sins, confessing Christ, calling upon him and believing on him (Rom 10:9,13, etc.) is still in his sins until he hears the same message from the lips of a preacher at some later date (does it have to be face to face, or will something like SermonAudio do?) then you need to learn to communicate more clearly. But I suspect that isn't the issue.


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## earl40 (Apr 24, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> If you're not saying that one who reads the Bible (which is God-breathed, written by the ultimate preacher) and responds with repenting of his sins, confessing Christ, calling upon him and believing on him (Rom 10:9,13, etc.) is still in his sins until he hears the same message from the lips of a preacher at some later date (does it have to be face to face, or will something like SermonAudio do?) then you need to learn to communicate more clearly. But I suspect that isn't the issue.



Of course I believe one may come to Jesus by reading His word which contains preaching which is in line with Romans 10. Though I would not suggest dropping bibles from B 52's all over the world.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 24, 2017)

"Though I would not suggest dropping bibles from B 52's all over the world."

Lol, that is a funny picture in my mind.


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## Dachaser (Apr 25, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> If you're not saying that one who reads the Bible (which is God-breathed, written by the ultimate preacher) and responds with repenting of his sins, confessing Christ, calling upon him and believing on him (Rom 10:9,13, etc.) is still in his sins until he hears the same message from the lips of a preacher at some later date (does it have to be face to face, or will something like SermonAudio do?) then you need to learn to communicate more clearly. But I suspect that isn't the issue.


I thought that the OP was whether if God can still use dreams and vision to spread to Muslims to good to the Bible and to hear the message of Jesus?


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