# Is the Confederate flag a good witness?



## kappazei (Oct 18, 2012)

Someone on another discussion board told me that some conservative churches on the Southern States still fly the Confederate flag. Is this true? And if so, could you give me an idea of how prevalent this practice is? I would also like to know if there has been discussion within the Christian community in the Southern States as to what message displaying the Confederate flag in or in association with the Church sends to the non believing community. Apparntly this is a real stumbling block to this person to even shadow the doors of her local church.

Y'all


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## BibleCyst (Oct 18, 2012)

I often make the case that churches should avoid flags altogether, for the same reason I make the case that churches should avoid crosses and symbols. Not because any of those things in and of themselves are wrong, but because I find things like that very distracting. The Confederate flag is a perfect case in point. Even the American flag is distracting to some people, so one can imagine how distracting the Confederate flag is.

This is not a deal breaker for me by any means, though.


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## Andres (Oct 18, 2012)

I've lived in Texas almost all my life and I've never seen it displayed in a church. I will agree with the other person that if I saw it displayed, I would pass on that church.


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## TylerRay (Oct 18, 2012)

I've lived in Georgia all my life, and I've never seen a Confederate flag displayed by a church--just on bumper stickers and front license plates and things in the parking lot.


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## Scottish Lass (Oct 18, 2012)

I've lived all over the South and have never seen it displayed on church property, inside or out.


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## Jack K (Oct 18, 2012)

It would be a very bad idea for a church. To some it stands for racism. To others it simply stands for pride in the South. But neither of those is what a church should stand for.

(And I too lived in the south, for 20 years, and never saw one displayed by a church.)


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## Andres (Oct 18, 2012)

Jack K said:


> To some it stands for racism. To others it simply stands for pride in the South. But *neither of those is what a church should stand for*.



This is an excellent point.


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2012)

I honestly doubt that person's story. i used to travel to dozens of churches of all denominations and never saw any of the confederate flags displayed. I did know one pastor that had a Phd in history that had a few paintings in his office that inluced flags, but no one that I know of included historical flags in any displays.

What she may have seen was a state flag displayed that included one of the Confederate National or Military flags as part of the State flag design.


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## raekwon (Oct 19, 2012)

I would certainly stay away from such a place. At the very least, it shows an incredible lack of wisdom on the church's part.


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## nicnap (Oct 19, 2012)

I haven't been to every church in the South, but I believe I can safely say that someone who seems prejudiced against the South and who probably isn't from the South fed you a load of falsehood.


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## Edward (Oct 19, 2012)

kappazei said:


> Someone on another discussion board told me that some conservative churches on the Southern States still fly the Confederate flag.



I grew up in Georgia and lived in Mississippi a few years. You can't get more 'deep south' than that. I've never seen it in a 'conservative church'. I'm guessing that your correspondent has seen pictures of 'Christian Identity' (Neo-Nazi) services where that might be one banner used (although it is not the main one for that movement). 

So, might there be a Christian body somewhere in the south that regularly displays one of the Confederate flags? Perhaps. Is it a common practice? No. 

I agree with my brothers here that take the position that any flag in worship is not appropriate (see threads on that subject). 

A final thought - many of the state flags in the south are similar to various Confederate flags - a few years ago, the Georgia flag was changed from one which was patterned on the Battle Flag to one which was patterned on the First National. So if a church was displaying a state flag, I can see where a carpetbagger could be confused if they didn't know what they were looking at.


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## Edward (Oct 19, 2012)

I did have an additional thought on the subject. The guy who destroyed Louisiana Presbytery of the PCA was active in Neo-Confederate organizations. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he had displayed flags in connection with special events. But I never heard of it being a practice at that church. And there was another Neo-Confederate in Mississippi that apparently started the "Confederate Presbyterian Church", per the SPLC, (a group which I hold in contempt - the SPLC, not the neo-confederates). And there are a few others out there, apparently.

So give me some time and a budget, and I could probably track down some rare examples, but it wouldn't be an easy task.


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## Zach (Oct 19, 2012)

I have a hard time believing this actually occurred. Surely churches have enough wisdom to not display something with so much controversy surrounding it.


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## Jack K (Oct 19, 2012)

Edward said:


> A final thought - many of the state flags in the south are similar to various Confederate flags - a few years ago, the Georgia flag was changed from one which was patterned on the Battle Flag to one which was patterned on the First National. So if a church was displaying a state flag, I can see where a carpetbagger could be confused if they didn't know what they were looking at.



Indeed, this has happened to many who should know better. I remember Time Magazine in 1977 running a large picture of a man with a flag at Jimmy Carter's innauguration. The caption called him a Confederate flag bearer. Problem was, it was a Georgia flag. The magazine had to eat a lot of crow.




nicnap said:


> I haven't been to every church in the South, but I believe I can safely say that someone who seems prejudiced against the South and who probably isn't from the South fed you a load of falsehood.



People who aren't from the South and hold prejudices often imagine southern scenes that aren't true to life. It wouldn't surprise me much if a Hollywood movie depicted a conservative southern church displaying a Confederate flag. That sort of thing gives people the impression it's commonplace when, in fact, it's extremely rare.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 19, 2012)

Edward said:


> I did have an additional thought on the subject. The guy who destroyed Louisiana Presbytery of the PCA was active in Neo-Confederate organizations. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he had displayed flags in connection with special events. But I never heard of it being a practice at that church. And there was another Neo-Confederate in Mississippi that apparently started the "Confederate Presbyterian Church", per the SPLC, (a group which I hold in contempt - the SPLC, not the neo-confederates). And there are a few others out there, apparently.
> 
> So give me some time and a budget, and I could probably track down some rare examples, but it wouldn't be an easy task.



Just curious but what do you mean by 'destroyed'?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 19, 2012)

Zach said:


> I have a hard time believing this actually occurred.


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## pianoman (Oct 19, 2012)

If they are in Mississippi and fly the state flag it has the confederate flag in the top left corner. But my father in law is the only person I know of the top of my head that flies it on a pole in the front yard. lol


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## Edward (Oct 19, 2012)

arap said:


> Just curious but what do you mean by 'destroyed'?



Getting off topic for this thread, but after the damage he did, it was no longer viable and the presbytery ended up being abolished at its instigation and the member churches disbursed to at least 3 other presbyteries. At one point, the entire presbytery faced expulsion from the denomination, but the situation resolved itself in a different fashion, although the end result was essentially the same.


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## raekwon (Oct 19, 2012)

"Dissolved" and "abolished" are very different things.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 19, 2012)

**Moderation**



Edward said:


> Getting off topic for this thread



Agreed. If y'all would like to discuss this subject further, I suggest starting another thread. Further discussion on this topic will be deleted from this thread.


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## Martin (Oct 19, 2012)

As a born and raised Southerner, I have never heard of the practice. I do not support any flying of flags at church.


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## kappazei (Oct 19, 2012)

Thank you everyone of you for your testimonials. I've asked the lady for the name of this church and its 'parent' church. I think I've got enough people saying they've never seen this in order to confront this person's story.

Blessings to you all.


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## Andres (Oct 19, 2012)

Eric said:


> As a born and raised Southerner, I have never heard of the practice. I do not support any flying of flags at church.



 Your beard looks great.


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## kappazei (Oct 21, 2012)

To everyone who were concerned enough to reply to this post, 


kappazei said:


> Someone on another discussion board told me that some conservative churches on the Southern States still fly the Confederate flag. Is this true?
> Y'all



Please hear my confession and forgive me. What the woman actually said online was the following;

"the local evangelic church supported racism and segregation for years, in my community. the parent baptist overseers in southern states STILL fly the rebel flag and hate lincoln for freeing the slaves."

She didn't say that some churches do this. As you can see, it is the, 'parent baptist overseers' who are flying the rebel flag. Whatever they are. I read into what she said and panicked. I'll remember to just cut and paste from now on. 
Again, I am sorry for causing needless conern and offence. Especially to people who worship in the Southern States.


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## calgal (Oct 21, 2012)

It would serve a purpose: always useful to have a dealbreaker be obvious in my opinion.


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## Edward (Oct 21, 2012)

kappazei said:


> and hate lincoln for freeing the slaves.



Tell her she needs to look at Thomas Dixon's "_The Clansman_". In the cast of characters, Abraham Lincoln is described as 'The Friend of the South'. 



kappazei said:


> the local evangelic church supported racism and segregation for years



There is merit to that statement. But it over-simplifies what was going on, and misses some nuances. 



kappazei said:


> parent baptist overseers' who are flying the rebel flag



I agree. I don't see what she is trying to say there.


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## Martin (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks Andrew!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Oct 22, 2012)

A wee bit late, but as a young man I preached regularly in rural baptist churches in north Mississippi. I have lived here and been a churchgoer my entire life. I have NEVER seen a stand-alone confederate battle flag at ANY church in Mississippi (or any other state). I can seldom remember ever seening the MS state flag in a church, which has a cbf in the corner. You frequently see the US flag in churches of all stripes, and in many churches that weird "christian flag." I agree with the thought that flags should be out of place in Churches.


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## Curt (Oct 22, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> You frequently see the US flag in churches of all stripes, and in many churches that weird "christian flag."



Weird is correct.


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## Bob66 (Oct 23, 2012)

I grew up in a different era.....I’m not “as old as Methuselah”, but time wise (1940-1960) the South in many ways was not OVER the Civil War. My grandmother was the president of the local chapter of the Daughters of the Confederacy for decades and an avid yankee hater...The sport in our community for young boys was attacking and beating up airman from a near-by local Air Force base, if they were from the North........Blacks were not respected to say the least, but the flag at that particular time was not yet the racist symbol it would become in the mid 1960’s as desegregation began....I remember it initially as a respected symbol of a lost cause, that has too often been associated with one issue....You would have to be a bit naive not to attach slavery as a big issue in the War Between the States obviously, but states rights were also a factor. After all the average folk in the South in those days did not own slaves, and were more inclined to see their loyalty confined to the state in which they lived. The concept that they were going to dance to the tune of some higher authority in Washington was unacceptable......In fact my very outspoken grandmother and many other elderly in many families in our community would deny vigorously that thought slavery was acceptable. What they still refused to accept was the notion that they were willing citizens of some United States, period... However, the battle flag would become and has unfortunately become an anti-black racist symbol, although oddly enough you can find newsreels out the wazoo showing Klan rallies where the US flag is in prominent display....But it is what it has become, a red neck symbol for whites only. I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable with a battle flag in or flying near our church, but you can bet your blue jeans, that there are plenty of church members still alive and well today in many Southern churches of many denominations, who intend on keeping their churches all white.. In fact I could take you to a fairly large Baptist church in our community RIGHT NOW where a black family attending services has caused a major uproar..........So in the South, you may not find the flag, but the attitude is unfortunately still alive and well. And its that attitude that always makes me wonder how these remaining die hards can even wildly imagine that they have any connection with Christianity whatsoever, with all that hate still neatly hiding just beneath the surface...


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## JohnGill (Oct 23, 2012)

I've only ever heard of it flying at one church in the south and that an IFBx church. The "pastor" is a known racist. If I were to find that flying outside a church I'd be suspicious of said church. But I have never seen it flying over any church in Texas. Now the Texas flag is a different matter.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 23, 2012)

**Moderation**



Bob66 said:


> I’m not “as old as Methuselah”, but time wise



Robert,

You need to click on the link in my signature below, and create a signature of your own. You must do this to be in compliance with board rules.

Thank you, for your prompt attention to this matter.


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## KMK (Oct 23, 2012)

calgal said:


> It would serve a purpose: always useful to have a dealbreaker be obvious in my opinion.



Funny and true at the same time. 

If such a church exists, you've got to hand it to them for their unapologetic honesty.


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## hammondjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Lived in Tennessee, Georgia, and both Carolinas and I've never seen it in a church or by a church. Now, on the state capitol building? Yeah, until recently. 

Back to the question of it being a good witness:
I have a real problem with that flying that flag. If you want to show your southern heritage, be my guest - I had plently of relatives fight in the war. But consider flying the Stars and Bars. I think that is a reasonable option with way fewer negative connotations.


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## darrellmaurina (Oct 24, 2012)

I have no idea whether there are pro-Southern churches which display the Confederate flag inside rather than the American flag. My impression is that many of the churches whose members are sympathetic to Southern partisan positions are also churches which would have a problem with any sort of flag in the church based either on Reformed regulative principle grounds or just older Baptist views of wanting a plain-looking meetinghouse.

I can respect the people who want to honor their Confederate ancestors and say things like "Heritage, Not Hate." That's not my thing, but as long as you're not a hater, I don't have a big problem with other people making choices I would not make, but please don't bring it to the church building.

What I do know is the Confederate flag has been and continues to be used in ways that are deliberately offensive.

Within walking distance of my home, there's a predominantly black COGIC congregation, and right across the street is a house whose owner has the Confederate flag, the "Don't Tread on Me" Gadsen rattlesnake flag, and several other things displayed in his windows so everybody coming to the church across the street from him has to see them. He also likes to put up various conservative handmade signs on his property which make me embarrassed to be a Republican who plans to vote for most of the candidates whose campaign signs he also displays in his yard.

The least that can be said is this guy is needlessly antagonizing his neighbors.

We live in America with a First Amendment which protects the rights of both the church and his neighbor. I will defend this man's right to be a bigot, while strongly condemning his bigotry.

We're kidding ourselves if we don't think such issues persist in the year 2012.


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