# God Gave Wine: What The Bible Says About Alcohol - by Kennet



## luvroftheWord

This book is a must-read. It is quite simply one of the best books ever written on the subject. I cannot conceive of how prohibitionists argue against it.


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## a

a good book for boot leggers... hehehe

ok, i'm a dork

[Edited on 5-19-2004 by ace]


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## king of fools

I heard a radio-sermon by John McArthur against alcohol. He said that he couldn't believe that God would have created alcohol as a good thing, because it can make people drunk. I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.


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## Ianterrell

Yeah that MacArthur guy's a little rough around the edges. It's consistent with his Dispensational roots though. Anybody ever read Drinking with Calvin and Luther?


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## cupotea

[quote:4ae895de21]I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.[/quote:4ae895de21] 

And sex...look what THAT leads to in many instances.


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## JWJ

[quote:112bf9d0b6][i:112bf9d0b6]Originally posted by king of fools[/i:112bf9d0b6]
I heard a radio-sermon by John McArthur against alcohol. He said that he couldn't believe that God would have created alcohol as a good thing, because it can make people drunk. I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony. [/quote:112bf9d0b6]

McArthur seems to be going more and more down hill in his theology, and from what I hear, even his Calvinism (I stopped reading McArthur 7 years ago!). How great it would be to sit with Luther (who loved to have his stein full when preparing sermons and lectures) and Calvin (who, in his travels, could not wait to get to the next town to sample the brew) and drink a couple of lager beers. I would even offer them a good cigar from my humidor that would compliment the beer and our conversation.

Jim


PS One local micro brewery, Lake Front Brewery, makes a killer cherry Lager.


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## Contra_Mundum

*Mac may be against it, but ...*

Down here in the South in fundie cuntrie, MacArthur's view isn't good enough. On the BBN (radio) his sermons (GTY program) get &quot;on-air&quot; editing or they simply won't get played at all (if that night he's too 'calvinistic' or other). In the past year or two his messages touched on alchohol. They played the first one or two. Then I tuned in the next night and his 1/2 hour was just dead air. They know their $$upport base. If their listeners call in--or in order to head them off at the pass--they'll censor in a heartbeat.

I've listened to MacArthur over the years with great profit. Can't agree with everything. Can't listen to him on Daniel or Revelation--too much of a Dispensational. But he's a good handler of the Word. And very practical. If anything, I believe his Calvinism has gotten much more consistent than it was 10-15 years ago. He finally seemed to embrace the &quot;L&quot; in TULIP. There's a lot of garbage on the radio. I think he's a good antidote. What do you think?


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## Ianterrell

Yeah from what I've heard he has embraced the &quot;L&quot; and become a full fledged 5-pointer. I don't agree with everything but like you I&quot;ve profited from his teachings.


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## Me Died Blue

[quote:3d325e5d10][i:3d325e5d10]Originally posted by Newly Reformed[/i:3d325e5d10]
[quote:3d325e5d10]I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.[/quote:3d325e5d10] 

And sex...look what THAT leads to in many instances. [/quote:3d325e5d10]

Reminds me of a good word from Martin Luther: &quot;Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?&quot; Also, how on earth can MacArthur square his view of God's approval of alcohol with the fact that Jesus partook of it, and that it played a key role under the Old Covenant as well? (But I guess the latter of these two reasons wouldn't really be a reason for MacArthur at all, in light of his Dispensationalism.)

An [i:3d325e5d10]excellent[/i:3d325e5d10] site on the topic I think you should all check out is http://members.aol.com/Dbix7/beer.html.

In Christ,

Chris

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by Me Died Blue]


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## Contra_Mundum




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## Me Died Blue

[quote:253d8f9b33][i:253d8f9b33]Originally posted by joshua[/i:253d8f9b33]
I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:253d8f9b33]

I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:253d8f9b33]either[/i:253d8f9b33] error.

In Christ,

Chris


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## Me Died Blue

[quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by joshua[/i:93eeb56ae2]
[quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:93eeb56ae2]
[quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by joshua[/i:93eeb56ae2]
I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:93eeb56ae2]either[/i:93eeb56ae2] error.

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

Aye...most desirable, but not most probable. [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

Within the broad evangelical community as a whole, I would probably agree. But within the Reformed community, it seems like it is not only probable, but that it's often in action. Most contemporary Reformed leaders, ministers and authors who have a great grip on the biblical Gospel also understand and appreciate alcohol's rich history in the church--people like Gentry, Jim West, R. C. Sproul, Jr., people on this board, etc.

In Christ,

Chris


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## Bladestunner316

alchohal is nasty anyway but I dont care as long as u dont get drunk


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## MICWARFIELD

Ian, 

I have read &quot;Drinking with Calvin and Luther&quot;. It's a pretty good read by Jim West. Have you read it? I liked the beer ratings at the end of the book. I found myself in agreement with most of the ratings.
The book seemed to focus more on history than the exposistion of scripture. But that's to be expected - the subtitle being &quot;A History of Alchohol in the Church&quot;.

Mike


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## Bryan

I don't think MacArthur's theology has gone down hill at all. His teaching has greatly profited me. I may not agree with everything he says, but he has a firm grasp on the truth and an unweavering commitment to share it.

I used to be against christians drinking but after much consider I've change my mind. Personally I don't drink (for a few reasons), but if a Christian wants to, and can do it within reason go for it. 

Bryan
SDG


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## Ianterrell

Mike,

I haven't read the book myself, though I have read some excerpts. I'll probably buy it when the right time comes.


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## JWJ

Other than his dispensational inconsistencies and teetotalling, how has been going &quot;more and more down hill' in his theology and Calvinism? [/quote]

I am not sure because I have not read or listen to him for at least a few years now. This information was based on what I have been hearing from some people and internet sites-though to be honest I did not enquire further as to the charges since McArthur does not interest me. 

However, the last time I heard him peach was at Piper's Pastors Conference in I believe 97'. I thought, as well as others, that he made some off the wall comments in his preaching (though many people say this not uncommon for him). Moreover, when I read his book on the gospel I thought there were many questionable inconsistencies and possible errors. Though it could have been just poor wording. Nevertheless, I decided 7 years ago to stick with, in my opinion, better and more consistent champions of the faith.

Jim


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## Me Died Blue

[quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
[quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:1a9208152e]
[quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
[quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:1a9208152e]
[quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:1a9208152e]

I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:1a9208152e]either[/i:1a9208152e] error.

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:1a9208152e]


Aye...most desirable, but not most probable. [/quote:1a9208152e]

Within the broad evangelical community as a whole, I would probably agree. But within the Reformed community, it seems like it is not only probable, but that it's often in action. Most contemporary Reformed leaders, ministers and authors who have a great grip on the biblical Gospel also understand and appreciate alcohol's rich history in the church--people like Gentry, Jim West, R. C. Sproul, Jr., people on this board, etc.

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:1a9208152e]


I agree, but there can be such a thing as majoring on the minors...and we're all guilty of that at times.

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by joshua] [/quote:1a9208152e]

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that.

In Christ,

Chris


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## JWJ

[/quote]

For the sake of my ignorance can you point out some of these &quot;inconsistencies and possible errrors&quot;? This would be extremely helpful in my own assessment. Thanks. [/quote]

I will try to look at my notes this weekend-- Remember it has been at least 7 or so years-- and dig up the info. However, it may not be until next week as I am going to be very busy this weekend-- going out of town.

Jim


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## panicbird

I do not drink, though I cannot on biblical grounds disagree with those who do. Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? It is pretty good. I especially like this paragraph:
&quot;This inclines me toward total abstinence, first in relation to myself and then in relation to others. In relation to myself, what this says to me is that alcohol could hinder me in what I want most, namely to recognize and to do the will of God. The Bible says, &quot;Be renewed in the spirit of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect&quot;(Rom. 12:2). And in another place, &quot;Do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is&quot; (Eph. 5:17). The mature believer does not ask: How many enjoyable things can I do and still not transgress God's will?&quot; But rather: Is there anything at all that I can do or stop doing which will refine my ability to recognize and do the will of God. In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most.&quot;

That summarizes my feelings pretty well. The whole article may be viewed here: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/81/100481p.html

Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.

Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.

But, like I said, I do not condemn those who drink. I just choose not to do so myself.

What do I know? I am just some fundamentalist, Baptist, southerner. 

Lon

[Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:e13963f0c1][i:e13963f0c1]Originally posted by joshua[/i:e13963f0c1]
MacArthur (Paraphrased): &quot;If you want to drink, that's fine, but don't say you're drinking because the Bible commends it (wine, etc.), because the wine then and the wine today is not the same.&quot;

This I heard in a MacArthur sermon on the issue. 
[/quote:e13963f0c1]

MacArthur proves he's no historian nor enologist.

[quote:e13963f0c1]I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:e13963f0c1]

What is the gospel other than God has entered the world to redeem creation? Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator. 

I'm afraid the abstinence folks do not have a comprehensive view of the gospel message.


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## panicbird

[quote:f4435c4b14][i:f4435c4b14]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:f4435c4b14]
Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator. 
[/quote:f4435c4b14]

You will want to watch yourself with this argument, as the same could be said of marijuana (from a plant which undergoes much less of a process to be useable than does alcohol). For that matter, you could say the same about cocaine (from the coca leaf) and heroin (from the poppy...I think).

Lon


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:44e444f86a][i:44e444f86a]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:44e444f86a]
I do not drink, though I cannot on biblical grounds disagree with those who do. Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? It is pretty good. I especially like this paragraph:
&quot;This inclines me toward total abstinence, first in relation to myself and then in relation to others. In relation to myself, what this says to me is that alcohol could hinder me in what I want most, namely to recognize and to do the will of God. The Bible says, &quot;Be renewed in the spirit of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect&quot;(Rom. 12:2). And in another place, &quot;Do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is&quot; (Eph. 5:17). The mature believer does not ask: How many enjoyable things can I do and still not transgress God's will?&quot; But rather: Is there anything at all that I can do or stop doing which will refine my ability to recognize and do the will of God. [b:44e444f86a]In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. [/b:44e444f86a] On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most.&quot;

That summarizes my feelings pretty well. The whole article may be viewed here: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/81/100481p.html
[/quote:44e444f86a]

Neither does eating a good steak. I'm sure Piper has never been a bit drowsy in the afternoon after a nice lunch. I know I have. I have yet to hear any Christian leader say, &quot;You know, I think I'm going to skip that big lunch today because I have an important meeting in the afternoon and I know what it can do to me.&quot;

I do not understand why Piper (and others) seems compelled to single out alcohol and not other pleasurable activites that we all enjoy. 

[quote:44e444f86a]

Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.
[/quote:44e444f86a]

But that's just you and your tastes. There are other folks whose sin leads them to overeat, just as there are folks whose sin leads them to drink too much. I am quite satisfied with one or two beers.


[quote:44e444f86a]

Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.
[/quote:44e444f86a]

Well, if you are going to reduce it to the utilitarian level, there is no reason to eat a steak. You can get the same nutrition from tofu and vegetables. There is no reason to drink anything but water. 

We eat steak and drink ale because we enjoy them. It's part of the blessing of creation. It's part of the gospel.

[quote:44e444f86a]
But, like I said, I do not condemn those who drink. I just choose not to do so myself.

What do I know? I am just some fundamentalist, Baptist, southerner. 

Lon

[Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird] [/quote:44e444f86a]

If one doesn't care for alcohol, then no problem. 

If one abstains for the sake of a &quot;weaker brother&quot; then I have no quarrel. But often this is used, not because of the weaker brother who may be truly troubled by the use of alcohol, but to placate the sensibilities of the &quot;superior brother&quot; who categorically believes drinking is &quot;unspiritual&quot; and sinful. It's not unlike Peter's actions in Galatians when he withdrew from the gentiles when the folks from Jerusalem arrived on the scene.

Even in the case of the weaker brother, I might argue that it would be better to teach them biblically how to control and moderate their enjoyment of alcohol. I'm not a fan of AA and the &quot;once a drunk always a drunk&quot; mentality. That is humanism at work. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is unable to rid a drunk of their sinful habits. 

[quote:44e444f86a]
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators... [b:44e444f86a]nor drunkards[/b:44e444f86a], ... will inherit the kingdom of God. [b:44e444f86a]Such were some of you[/b:44e444f86a]; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 
[/quote:44e444f86a]

[Edited on 5-21-2004 by tcalbrecht]


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:54f74e13fb][i:54f74e13fb]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:54f74e13fb]
[quote:54f74e13fb][i:54f74e13fb]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:54f74e13fb]
Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator. 
[/quote:54f74e13fb]

You will want to watch yourself with this argument, as the same could be said of marijuana (from a plant which undergoes much less of a process to be useable than does alcohol). For that matter, you could say the same about cocaine (from the coca leaf) and heroin (from the poppy...I think).

Lon [/quote:54f74e13fb]

Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared &quot;very good&quot;? Or were they created later?

I would be more concerned about questioning God's wisdom in creating the specific plants and animals He did for our benefit.


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## panicbird

[quote:f45441ae6b][i:f45441ae6b]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:f45441ae6b]
Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared &quot;very good&quot;? Or were they created later?

I would be more concerned about questioning God's wisdom in creating the specific plants and animals He did for our benefit. [/quote:f45441ae6b]

Were hops and barley there or were they created later?

I resent the insinuation that I am questioning God's wisdom in creating certain things. We should be more cordial to one another over such a secondary (or even tertiary) topic.

I am, rather, questioning our use of certain things God created.

Lon



[Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:c6ba435478][i:c6ba435478]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:c6ba435478]
Were hops and barley there or were they created later?

[/quote:c6ba435478]

Created by whom?

[quote:c6ba435478]
I resent the insinuation that I am questioning God's wisdom in creating certain things. We should be more cordial to one another over such a secondary (or even tertiary) topic.

I am, rather, questioning our use of certain things God created.

Lon



[Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird] [/quote:c6ba435478]

I didn't mean to offend you, I was just wondering about your presuppositions. There is nothing inherently evil in marijuana or barley, or a nice steak for that matter. So, I would say that the issue is not use but abuse. At least this seems to be the picture painted in the Bible.


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:8cbf80b980]
Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared &quot;very good&quot;? Or were they created later? 
[/quote:8cbf80b980]

Forgive me for being too subtle with my question. 

My point is that of course all those plants were in the creation garden and given the stamp of &quot;very good&quot; by the Creator.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible where using marijuana is per se condemned as sinful.

Today any use is considered sinful because any use violates the laws of the state (except in certain countries). 

But that sinfulness is analogous to the sinfulness of using alcohol during Prohibition. Or of marrying your first cousin in states where it is against the law to marry your cousin. In the Bible it is not a sin to marry your cousin.


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## Ianterrell

Tom... 

In all seriousness that's one of the problems I have with american evangelicalism is that they have dumped the moral law of God and taken up a new standard, a man-made one. Piper and MacArthur's New Covenant thelology forces them to adhere to man-made laws! 

It's so sad when the people of God have a lot to say when scripture remains silent. The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need pharisaic burdens to protect us from &quot;missing the will of God.&quot; All Christianity needs is its own Talmud. 



[Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:51ae8ee238][i:51ae8ee238]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:51ae8ee238]
Tom... 

In all seriousness that's one of the problems I have with american evangelicalism is that they have dumped the moral law of God and taken up a new standard, a man-made one. Piper and MacArthur's New Covenant thelology forces them to adhere to man-made laws! 

It's so sad when the people of God have a lot to say when scripture remains silent. The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need pharisaic burdens to protect us from &quot;missing the will of God.&quot; All Christianity needs is its own Talmud. 



[Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:51ae8ee238]


[quote:51ae8ee238]
There is growing up in society a Pharisaic system which adds to the commands of God the precepts of men; to that system I will not yield for an hour. The preservation of my liberty may bring upon me the upbraidings of many good men, and the sneers of the self-righteous; but I shall endure both with serenity so long as I feel clear in my conscience before God. 

...

If through smoking I had wasted an hour of my time-if I had stinted my gifts to the poor-if I had rendered my mind less vigorous-I trust I should see my fault and turn from it; but he who charges me with these things shall have no answer but my forgiveness.

(CH Spurgeon on the subject of &quot;smoking to the glory of God&quot;.)
[/quote:51ae8ee238]


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## A.J.A.

From what I've read, chewed coca leaves and tea brewed from coca leaves are good for you if you live in very high elevations -- like the Andes. So it was put where it was meant to be for the people who were meant to have it.


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## panicbird

So now we are Pharisees who are adhering to man-made laws? Come on guys! Is this a hill anyone wants to die on?

Go back and read my posts. In no place did I call anyone a name or say that they are wrong for drinking. In fact, I said that I condemn no one for drinking. I simply stated my opinion on the matter (just like everyone else was doing; it just so happens that mine was not the majority or what you thought was correct) and I get called a Pharisee.

I have been called worse. I have thick skin. You have not hurt my feelings in the least. But all this is a bit much.

Oh, and regarding food and alcohol, I will say this (mostly trying to be funny): you do not read about people going to Outback, getting full on a steak, and then, because they were filled with steak, get into a wreck on the way home. &quot;What happened here, officer?&quot; &quot;It was the driver, he had the 16 oz. instead of the 10 oz. When will people learn?&quot;



Lon

[Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]


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## Ianterrell

Lon,

You will notice that I did not name any names in my post. I was referring to a line of thought in the evangelical church not any one specific person. Re-read my post I don't think what I said qualifies as signaling out anyone on this thread.

*edit* Lon, I was referring more specifically actually to Piper and MacArthur's statements. That quote you posted from Piper is simply wrong, as are some of the inferences he makes in the article. To suggest that a connection can be made with drinking and being &quot;in tune with God's will&quot; is really begging the question: Didn't God already make up rules to govern alchohol usage? Why do we have to add to that?

His comments also seem to suggest that he had a happy home because no one drank. What about all the families with parents who do drink responsibly? That's just simply a wrong-headed thing to say.

[Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## Ianterrell

Paul,

I don't think there would be anything inherently wrong with those things.


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## Ianterrell

haha you got me.


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## panicbird

Ian,

Did God makes rules governing the drinking of alcohol? If so, please show me in Scripture? I am not being confrontational; I simply do not know about this particular teaching in Scripture.

Also, while there may not be a necessary connection between drinking and the &quot;ability to recognize and do the will of God,&quot; I do think that there often is. For example, the person who is drinking often gets a buzz; does this buzz help one discern the will of God as revealed in Scripture? Does it aid that ability? Or, does it not affect it at all? Or, does it hinder it? My only personal experience with drinking is of the &quot;let's get drunk&quot; variety, though I realize that others do not engage in this. Broaden my horizons! I think this is analogous to looking at beautiful women. To look at a beautiful woman and recognize her beauty is not a sin. However, because of our sinful nature, it often turns into such. I guess, for me, it boils down to not giving the flesh an opportunity.

Lon


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:f2752d7892]
I simply stated my opinion on the matter (just like everyone else was doing; it just so happens that mine was not the majority or what you thought was correct) and I get called a Pharisee. 
[/quote:f2752d7892]

Who called you a Pharisee?


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## tcalbrecht

[quote:6f3d1557dc]
Did God makes rules governing the drinking of alcohol? 
[/quote:6f3d1557dc]

Drunkenness is verboten.


[quote:6f3d1557dc]
[b:6f3d1557dc]And be not drunk with wine[/b:6f3d1557dc], wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (Ephesians 5:18)

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, [b:6f3d1557dc]not given to wine[/b:6f3d1557dc], no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1:7)

Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and [b:6f3d1557dc]drunkenness[/b:6f3d1557dc], not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. (Romans 13:13)

Nor thieves, nor covetous, [b:6f3d1557dc]nor drunkards[/b:6f3d1557dc], nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:10,11)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, [b:6f3d1557dc]drunkenness[/b:6f3d1557dc], revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)
[/quote:6f3d1557dc]


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## sastark

A study I did a long time ago on drunkenness:

http://www.geocities.com/crusader1517/papers/drunkenness.html

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[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a work of darkness, a lust of the flesh.[/b:2252b347a0]

Romans 13:12, 13, 14

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to [fulfill its] lusts.


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a work of the flesh.[/b:2252b347a0]

Galatians 5: 19, 20, 21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 


[b:2252b347a0]Being drunk opposes being filled with the Holy Spirit[/b:2252b347a0]

Ephesians 5: 15-21

15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord [is.] 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

[u:2252b347a0]v. 18- Note opposition of being filled with the Spirit and being drunk.[/u:2252b347a0]


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkards are to be excluded from the fellowship of the church.[/b:2252b347a0]

1 Corinthians 5: 11, 12, 13

11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what [have] I [to do] with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore &quot;put away from yourselves the evil person.&quot;


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a punishment from God[/b:2252b347a0]

Jeremiah 13: 12-15

12 &quot; Therefore you shall speak to them this word: 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: &quot;Every bottle shall be filled with wine.&quot; ' And they will say to you, 'Do we not certainly know that every bottle will be filled with wine?' 13 &quot;Then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD: &quot;Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land -- even the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem -- with drunkenness! 14 &quot;And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,&quot; says the LORD. &quot;I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them.&quot; ' &quot; 15 Hear and give ear: Do not be proud, For the LORD has spoken. 


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is outside the will of God.[/b:2252b347a0]

1 Peter 4: 1-5

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we [have spent] enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with [them] in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of [you.] 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

[u:2252b347a0]v. 2, 3- Note opposition of the will of God and the will of the Gentiles.[/u:2252b347a0]


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness will be punished in this life.[/b:2252b347a0]

Proverbs 23:21

For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe [a man] with rags.


[b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness will be punished in the next life.[/b:2252b347a0]

Galatians 5: 19, 20, 21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by sastark]


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## panicbird

Tom,

[quote:6b0ac5c5ab][i:6b0ac5c5ab]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:6b0ac5c5ab]
The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need [b:6b0ac5c5ab]pharisaic [/b:6b0ac5c5ab] burdens to protect us from &quot;missing the will of God.&quot; All Christianity needs is its own Talmud. [/quote:6b0ac5c5ab]

While not naming me by name, in the context of this discussion, I am the one who abstains from alcohol (i.e., the one who &quot;burdens,&quot; though I have said that I do not condemn those who drink). Also, I am the one who quoted Piper on the will of God and alcohol.

Are the drunkeness passages the only ones? How is drunkeness defined? A little buzz? A lot of buzz?

Lon


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## panicbird

Thanks Paul. 

I have never said that drinking is biblically wrong. I do have a question about the passage you quoted, however. Who are the perishing, and who are those in anguish? The verse seems to me to be saying that we should relieve those who are suffering, kind of like when Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. How does that apply today? I do not think that we would we give a cancer patient a beer to dull the pain (hey, maybe we should! It could be a new outreach program for the church.  ).

I look forward to your response. You really are, as the kids say, &quot;the bomb&quot; (I am so not hip). 

Lon


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## Ianterrell

Lon,

thanks for your patient response. I think Tom answered the question for me as to the bible's teaching on drinking. We are not to drink in excess which is to drunkeness. You mentioned your experience with drinking as the getting drunk variety. Whenever I go to an Italian restaurant I like to have a nice glass of Red wine to go with my pasta. This is one example of a usage of wine that is not keeping me from being spiritually minded. I personally have never been drunk before, by the grace of God, but I drink beer. And I drink wine. And I receive them with thanksgiving! I think its funny, Piper wrote an excellent essay entitled &quot;how to drink orange juice to the glory of God&quot;. It would be just as true a statement to have titled it &quot;how to drink a Budweiser to the glory of God&quot;.

The idea that drinking responsibly is dangerous is an idea foreign to the bible where David says that God gave wine to man to make his heart glad. If drinking was in and of itself dubious as Piper and MacArthur suggest they are to be commended for being wiser than the Lord Jesus who provided the alchoholic beverages for a wedding if I remember correctly. And then wine is a part of regular Christian worship, it was the norm in communion until about the turn of the past century when arminian Dispensationalists began equating all forms of alchohol usage as sin, both responsible and irresponsible. I blame Finney. :grad:


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## Ianterrell

Song of Songs 7:9 
And your mouth like the best wine!&quot; &quot;It goes {down} smoothly for my beloved, Flowing gently {through} the lips of those who fall asleep.


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## panicbird

Thanks all! While I do not think that I will soon be drinking (I guess I will just have to wait until the great feast, Paul), I appreciate learning.

So, how do we define drunkenness?

Lon

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by panicbird]


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## George Bailey

Paul,
Awesome answer to the same question that I had. Thanks.


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## Ianterrell

Paul,

Good answer man! Drunkeness has to be handled by the individual. I know my personal limits and some people can drink more than eye. Some can't drink half as much. It's best then left up to the indivual to excercise wisdom and caution in this matter.


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## Craig

I really enjoy a couple glasses of wine on the Sabbath...in fact, my wife and I had some (for which we thanked God...He truly warms our hearts by it ).

I never thought I'd be able to partake of the fruit of the vine...I grew up being told it was wrong...since then. my parents have changed their mind, as have my brother and sister in law...we all drink it together when at home for a meal. Our family has grown closer (partly due to the vino, I think).

If it goes against conscience; don't do it...but don't tell me not to. If people look perplexed when they see me drink...I'll put it away...if they happen to shout judgment upon me...I am sure to top it off and swig some more!

In all seriousness...how could there even be a debate about this? The clarity of scripture is amazing. We should not become drunk, and that is fairly easy to tell when you've had too much. For those who haven't had alcohol, it is easy to tell...to those who say they drink and can't tell when enough is enough: They're either lying, or they're drunks who don't want to feel responsible for their behavior.

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by Craig]


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## Ianterrell

&quot;If people look perplexed when they see me drink...I'll put it away...if they happen to shout judgment upon me...I am sure to top it off and swig some more! &quot;

lol


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## king of fools

[quote:267aa80d7d][i:267aa80d7d]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:267aa80d7d]
Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? ... 

&quot;... In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most.&quot;

....

Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.

Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.

[/quote:267aa80d7d]

Interesting point, but I' m not sure how Piper could substantiate such an argument. How do you prove that alcohol doesn't &quot;increase one's sensitivity to the will of God&quot;? I'm not sure that you can prove that.

Drunkeness, yes I agree that doesn't glorify God and leaves the intoxiacted person with impaired judgment and clouded thinking. We are told outright in the pages of scripture over and over to not be drunk. But one or two drinks per day? We're not talking about excesses, but controlled moderation. Moreover, just because something isn't necessary for survival doesn't mean it's bad.

1 Tim 3:8 &quot;Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, [b:267aa80d7d]not given to much wine[/b:267aa80d7d], not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.&quot;

1 Tim 5:23 &quot;No longer drink only water, but [b:267aa80d7d]use a little wine[/b:267aa80d7d] for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.&quot;


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## king of fools

I agree with the personal relative approach on this issue. I am familiar with a certain RB texan man who currently weights about 270 lbs. (no names!) He would have no problem finishing off 8 or 9 drinks in an hour and still not be &quot;legally&quot; drunk to drive. (although, I doubt he would have more that 4 drinks per month)

On the other hand, I also am aware of an old friend that had a terrible intollerance to alcohol. 3 drinks and he would pass out.

In all areas of our life, the Christian must strive to be in control of thoughts and actions and must not become enslaved to anything. Personal responsibility.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by king of fools]


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## RamistThomist

[quote:d92491cabd][i:d92491cabd]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d92491cabd]
[quote:d92491cabd]
So, how do we define drunkenness? 
[/quote:d92491cabd]

If you want my honest opinion... I have thought about this alot. I am at the position right now that this is a somewhat relative issue. 



The reason I say relative is in the amount people can drink. Some may be able to have 5 beers when others would be platered by that. SInce I don't think that the law's standard works..I mean was .05% what the bible called drunk? And I know some who are not &quot;drunk&quot; but if the blew in a breathalizer they would be. [/quote:d92491cabd]

I know Paul took a break from the board, so this question is not directed towards him specifically. Since someone is mentioning online Christians are driving me crazy, the rightness/wrongness of alcohol has been brought up. That being so, I have a practical question to ask. I stand on the side of Ken Gentry and Co. and have read his book,[i:d92491cabd] God Gave Wine[/i:d92491cabd]. I am to show my naivete on this next qestion: If I were to drink a glass of wine at an Italian Restaraunt, wouls I be able to pass a breathalizer test? The reason that I know so little about this is that I grew up being told that wine was wrong with none of the &quot;pro-wine&quot; texts being quoted. I guess that I am a little sheltered. To be honest, I have only had one glass of wine in my life and that was recently.


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## bockman

Hi Finn,
I don't know if worrying about passing breathalisers is as important as self awareness as you imbibe. Legally you may or may not be drunk depending on your weight and constitution, but the effect you feel when you drink is the issue.


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## RamistThomist

[quote:c5d590683c][i:c5d590683c]Originally posted by bockman[/i:c5d590683c]
Hi Finn,
I don't know if worrying about passing breathalisers is as important as self awareness as you imbibe. Legally you may or may not be drunk depending on your weight and constitution, but the effect you feel when you drink is the issue. [/quote:c5d590683c]

I should have made myself more clear: I have no moral qualms about moderate intakes of alcohol. I am 5'7 150lb. I have never been drunk nor after drinking a glass of wine did I feel that much different.


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## bockman

I probably am misunderstanding and it wouldn't be the first time...'s a little habit of mine.

I'm was just wondering why you'd wonder if you'd pass a breathalizer with one drink? Is it a driving issue?


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## RamistThomist

[quote:b90b68a892][i:b90b68a892]Originally posted by bockman[/i:b90b68a892]
I probably am misunderstanding and it wouldn't be the first time...'s a little habit of mine.

I'm was just wondering why you'd wonder if you'd pass a breathalizer with one drink? Is it a driving issue? [/quote:b90b68a892]

Bear in mine my absyssmal ignorance on some issues. I just wanted to make sure I had every corner covered.


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## bockman

Oh, no, no no! Don't be silly. I was just wondering. I shouldn't even be commenting as I'm not familiar with the book being discussed. I apologize.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

&quot;God Gave Wine&quot; and &quot;Drinking with Calvin and Luther&quot; are two of the best books anywhere on this subject, In my humble opinion. 

All of God's blessings, including alcoholic beverages, are to be enjoyed in moderation as appropriate to God's glory.

Cheers!


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## just_grace

*Grass...*



> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> [quote:622afa4a2b]
> There is nothing inherently evil in marijuana or barley, or a nice steak for that matter
> [/quote:622afa4a2b]
> 
> This is a question I was wondering from people. If marijuana was leagalized (like alchohol and tobacco) would anyone think it was wrong to smoke it (as much as say, a relaxing "buzz" from beer, wine, whiskey, etc)? Of course we couldn't abuse it but could we have a small pull from a bong? Or, if I went to amsterdam, where it is leagle, would it be sinfull for me to smoke it? just wondering



I would not buy any these days but if I was in a situation where I got passed a joint, I would probably take a toke !!!!

Old habits die hard, I would rather put them to death...


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## Ex Nihilo

> _Originally posted by bockman_
> I probably am misunderstanding and it wouldn't be the first time...'s a little habit of mine.
> 
> I'm was just wondering why you'd wonder if you'd pass a breathalizer with one drink? Is it a driving issue?



In my humble opinion, the point at which a person probably shouldn't drive is significantly lower than the legal limit.


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## PuritanCovenanter

This is the best article I have read on the subject.

*The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages by Greg Price*
I moved the article to The Putitan Pub

Link to article

[Edited on 7-29-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Puritanhead

I went to Christian schools like Liberty and Regent-- and the prevailing sentiment amongst the stripe of dispensationalists that dominant there-- is that alcohol is inherently sinful because it is liable to abuse... Some are apt to question one's spirituality if they hear someone is purported to consume an alcoholic beverage.

Though, I can certainly understood bans on alcohol for college students in Christian undergrad institutions.


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## Larry Hughes

I think Piper's view misses the point of true holiness - via Christ alone. Which is surprising for him. I think he just disconnects at this point unfortunately.

Because, if I can eat or drink with the faith and peace of Christ having done what I couldn't do - that is put faith highest - that is Christ, then such resting in Christ is exhibited in my not attempting to vainly "please" God some other way, not eating or not drinking. Whether you eat or drink do all to the Glory of God. What greater reflection of His fame than to act in a way that reflects the peace that Christ gives me by His cross - glorying in the cross by such actions. How much higher can one live and act but do all things that show forth one's utter trust in Christ Who died and gave Himself for me.

Too many in the pietistic realm think Christianity is about walking around like a grim reaper all the time.

Conversely, if I'm a pagan viewing a Christian not drinking, what am I viewing and what is he/she bearing witness to that I could not view and have born witness to me that I could not see in a Mormon, JW, Muslim, Buddhist or a thousand other cults and false religions?

What's the significant difference in a testimony that says something like, "Before I found Kristna, Buddha, the teachings of Mohammed, Scientology, Kabbala I was a lousy man. But Kristna, Buddha, the teachings of Mohammed, Scientology, Kabbala took all that away from me and now I'm a swell guy." What is the difference between that and, "Before I found Jesus I was a lousy guy but now I'm as moral as a Mormon on smiling pills."? Nothing significant. Hence again justification by faith alone IS what the church stands and falls on. 

Beer and wine drinking might hurt your witness if your an Elder in the mormon church out in the "mission field", but not as a Christian. And of course we are not meaning drunkeness here, some times one just has to spell it out or people get itchy about it.

Ldh

[Edited on 7-30-2005 by Larry Hughes]


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Conversely, if I'm a pagan viewing a Christian not drinking, what am I viewing and what is he/she bearing witness to that I could not view and have born witness to me that I could not see in a Mormon, JW, Muslim, Buddhist or a thousand other cults and false religions?
> 
> Ldh



Excellent point! 

...Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Col. 2.23


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## Larry Hughes

Andrew,

Of course one could look at it this way:

You´re a pagan who just walked into Applebees. Seated are four men all not "œhurting their witness"œ; there´s a Christian drinking milk, a Mormon drinking milk, a JW drinking milk and a Muslim drinking milk. You look and see this. Which one´s the Christian? After all he´s trying not to hurt his witness so isn´t obvious! I´m being factitious of course.

Of course you could walk in and see four guys drinking beer. Three are getting tipsy and the forth one is either the designated driver or a reformed Christian. Again, being factitious of course.

L


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