# Does it really matter in everyday faith?



## anotherpilgrim (Apr 29, 2012)

A friend asked me this regarding the doctrines of election and sovereignty of God and all. Her point was basically that it doesn't really affect your everyday christian walk. What does everyone think? Does it affect the daily spiritual life of Christians? Should it?


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## Quatchu (Apr 29, 2012)

How can it not effect your daily christian life. The impoact on personal evangelism is sucnificant all on its own. I used to hold a similar view until i actually understood the doctrines of grace.

Total Depravity: Every christian needs to daily understand there own sinfulness to ask forgiveness, to do otherwise would be to deny sin.
Unconditional Election: Salvation is unconditional grace. We have done nothing for it. We must thank and praise god for that.
Limited Atonement: Christ took punishment for his people, saved his people, withstood the wrath of God his people deserved.
Irresistible Grace: God is sovereign and in control.
Perseverance of the Saints: We are eternally his, we are secure in Christ. He promised to never leave us nor forsake us.

Therefore I would say that if the doctrine of grace are not part of your everyday life your doing something seriously wrong.


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## Miss Marple (Apr 29, 2012)

Understanding that God is sovereign and that His purposes concerning election stand has been of great comfort to me since I was converted at age 21.

I don't think understanding these truths saves me, or makes me extra special saved. It just comforts me greatly as I "work out my salvation with fear and trembling." Also, as I work out the salvation of others! This knowledge prevents a great deal of anxiety, frustration, and fear in my everyday life.

When I forget it, that's when I become a bit of a psychological/spiritual mess.


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## py3ak (Apr 29, 2012)

It made a difference to Paul - so he gives thanks for the election of the Thessalonians, and knows that no flesh can glory in the presence of God. By making it absolutely clear that _salvation is of the Lord_, that the origin of salvation is entirely in God himself, it serves both to humble us and to give us greater reason for gratitude. Since humility and thankfulness are two cardinal virtues of the Christian life, it is obvious that when election is truly believed and warmly meditated on, it will have a positive impact on our lives: and this is without mentioning what other posters have touched on, that it is a great ground of comfort, and that comfort and certainty sets us free to serve God cheerfully and without improper fear.


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## Hilasmos (Apr 29, 2012)

All scripture is profitable for all things related to the christian walk.


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## George Bailey (Apr 29, 2012)

Boy does it matter! How comforting it is to not think that if we aren't smart enough, articulate enough, used-car-salesmanlike enough to convince people that they have to choose God, then they're going to go to hell! It puts the burden on us to "market" salvation to a consumer, and thus the responsibility.

I find the DOG extremely freeing in that respect...additionally, I find that there's "spillover" in how I view the actions of God in all of our lives daily...when one views the TOTAL Sovereignty of God in ALL things, it does make a daily difference in our walks.

Brian


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## Jack K (Apr 29, 2012)

Yes, knowing the comfort and security of the doctrines of grace is _essential_ to daily, godly obedience.

Security is especially important. An insecure Christian who's always worried he hasn't done enough for God will have two issues that keep him from growing as a believer:

1. An insecure Christian is never going to develop a deep gratitude and love for God. He'll always be concerned that if he isn't sincere/obedient/faithful enough God may decide to damn him. How can he love a God like that? And loving God is the first and great commandment, upon which all other obedience rests.

2. An insecure Christian will be inclined to avoid letting the light of God shine increasingly in his life. Learning more about the holiness of God and meditating on God's law only makes the insecure Christian feel more condemned. Learning more about his own sinfulness also just makes him feel more condemned. So such a believer will naturally avoid intimacy with God, pretend he doesn't need to repent much, and refuse to hear God's law—because his failure to believe the doctrines of grace means he can't handle these things. And you can't grow when you're like that.


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## Scott1 (Apr 29, 2012)

Does it "really matter" to who?


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## anotherpilgrim (Apr 29, 2012)

I guess my friends point was, as someone who doesn't really believe in predestination, or election, and basically has the same sense of comfort and security and reliance on the grace of God, what difference does it make to her in her daily walk that she doesn't understand or agree with the doctrines of grace?

In discussing the doctrines of grace with other who disagree, where do all of you think their sense of comfort and security comes from? Do they believe in them in some form but don't like the implications of predestination and election and therefore disagree with it?

I'm trying to understand where people who disagree with these doctrines come from, because for me having a sense of comfort and security doesn't add up apart from the doctrines of grace, and I'm not following the arguments of those who say they have that sense of comfort and security but disagree with these doctrines.

Also, I have maintained that how you read and interpret the bible, extract doctrine, preach, etc. are all impacted by what you believe of these doctrines. But I can't seem to point to anything concrete for my friend. Anyone have any ideas on that?


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## Apologist4Him (Apr 29, 2012)

Jack K said:


> Yes, knowing the comfort and security of the doctrines of grace is _essential_ to daily, godly obedience.
> 
> Security is especially important. An insecure Christian who's always worried he hasn't done enough for God will have two issues that keep him from growing as a believer:
> 
> ...



Great reply, once again, you nailed it brother Jack! I would only add another difference is one of focus, a secure Christian finding comfort in the finished work of Christ should be more focused on God and what He has done, while the insecure Christian only finding comfort when they think they are talking the talking and walking the walk, will have strong tendencies to focus more on self performance. There is a world of difference in the lived out implications.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 29, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> A friend asked me this regarding the doctrines of election and sovereignty of God and all. Her point was basically that it doesn't really affect your everyday christian walk. What does everyone think? Does it affect the daily spiritual life of Christians? Should it?



Upon what basis does she believe she has the power to walk with Christ on an everyday basis? Upon what basis did she begin in the faith and how does she continue therein?


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## anotherpilgrim (Apr 29, 2012)

Semper Fidelis said:


> anotherpilgrim said:
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> > A friend asked me this regarding the doctrines of election and sovereignty of God and all. Her point was basically that it doesn't really affect your everyday christian walk. What does everyone think? Does it affect the daily spiritual life of Christians? Should it?
> ...



She does rely on the mercy and grace of God to give her the ability to carry out his will and persevere in the faith to the end, but whether or not God has a group of elect who he has destined for heaven or not doesn't really change her daily spiritual walk.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 29, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


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What ability? The ability to cooperate with that grace so that she might persevere or is that reliance based on her surety that God sanctifies and glorifies those whom He justifies?


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## anotherpilgrim (Apr 29, 2012)

Semper Fidelis said:


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I think her view would be to cooperate with that grace so she might persevere.


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## Apologist4Him (Apr 29, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
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I understand where she is coming from, sometimes it seems as though "finer points of Theology" are exclusively for the "ivory tower seminarians" to debate and discuss, however this is not the case. When considering the doctrine of election it does not merely involve a "group of elect", it also involves a crucial question: who does the electing? Not just who is elected, but how, in what manner. Another important question is: can we have assurance of our election?


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 29, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
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Then, sadly, the daily consequence is that she might believe what Paul calls "another Gospel" in the letter to the Galatians.


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## anotherpilgrim (Apr 29, 2012)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Then, sadly, the daily consequence is that she might believe what Paul calls "another Gospel" in the letter to the Galatians.



Well, that's I think her point; namely, do people have to understand and agree with all these 'finer' points of doctrine to really lead a victorious christian life? For example, Billy Graham may not have believed in the five points of Calvinism, but no one questions that he leads a victorious christian life, or is a christian or may be believing in another gospel. So her question would be, if you don't believe in these doctrines are you not a real Christian?


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## kappazei (Apr 30, 2012)

I really don't know the context/what led to this discussion with your friend but I remember as an immature believer getting my back up when someone first challenged me to consider Calvinism. Sometimes people just are not ready for deep theology.

Could you do something for me? If you havn't already, could you ask your friend, "_Have you ever specifically thanked God _for personally choosing you?" as it is stated in John 15:16? I'd love to hear her response.

I would also like to know if she thinks her will can continue to exist apart from His sovereignty and whether she thinks sin affects a human's ability to make right choices.


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## J. Dean (Apr 30, 2012)

As mentioned above, it matters immensely in evangelism and bearing witness to others, and it's one of the greatest comforts for me that God will draw out His elect regardless of how well or poorly I bear witness. Of course, that's not an excuse to hide the faith, but it does remind me that God is responsible for results. 

This is one of the biggest differences between Calvinism and Arminianism from a practical standpoint. Calvinism believes God will save His elect regardless of what happens. Arminianism believes that God "can't do it without us" and that the fault somehow lies with us if people don't come to saving faith.


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## NB3K (Apr 30, 2012)

Read this sermon by Calvin on Ephesian's 1:3-4. Calvin answers your questions in a pastoral manner.

*Calvin's Sermon on Ephesian's 1:3-7*


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 30, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Then, sadly, the daily consequence is that she might believe what Paul calls "another Gospel" in the letter to the Galatians.
> ...



You're missing my point. Paul doesn't consider it a "finer point of theology" but the meat of the Gospel when the Galatians misapprehend the nature of their sanctification. I asked very simple questions because I wanted a simple answer:

How does she believe she began in the faith?
How does she believe she continues in the faith?

You answered the second one which indicated a form that is very common. It's the heart of Roman Catholicism.

People think of grace as something that assists them but they utlimately must put it to use or they will not be saved.

The Epistles clearly hold forth how crucial it is that we come to an understanding of the consequences of our union with Christ. Paul calls it "my Gospel" when he is teaching the Romans how Christ saved them.

We all have maturing understandings of these things. At the end of the day, however, it is not a "finer point of theology" when someone isn't sure whether justification and sanctification are definitive. Paul, with tears in his eyes, literally wonders how the Galatians could forget such a critical point and is concerned that his entire labor has been in vain because people aren't sure about what your friend thinks is immaterial.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 30, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Then, sadly, the daily consequence is that she might believe what Paul calls "another Gospel" in the letter to the Galatians.
> ...



You're missing my point. Paul doesn't consider it a "finer point of theology" but the meat of the Gospel when the Galatians misapprehend the nature of their sanctification. I asked very simple questions because I wanted a simple answer:

How does she believe she began in the faith?
How does she believe she continues in the faith?

You answered the second one which indicated a form that is very common. It's the heart of Roman Catholicism.

People think of grace as something that assists them but they utlimately must put it to use or they will not be saved.

The Epistles clearly hold forth how crucial it is that we come to an understanding of the consequences of our union with Christ. Paul calls it "my Gospel" when he is teaching the Romans how Christ saved them.

We all have maturing understandings of these things. At the end of the day, however, it is not a "finer point of theology" when someone isn't sure whether justification and sanctification are definitive. Paul, with tears in his eyes, literally wonders how the Galatians could forget such a critical point and is concerned that his entire labor has been in vain because people aren't sure about what your friend thinks is immaterial.


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## Constantlyreforming (Apr 30, 2012)

Our everyday walk should include sharing the gospel message of Christ as He commanded. The Bible is clear that man is desperately wicked and that he is opposed to God, and does not seek after God. This should be enough to destroy the confidence of every Arminian evangelist. Yet, they glorify the will of man to a status it does not deserve, giving the will of man "capability".

I go out and share the gospel with a vengeance because I am told that God has elected; therefore, the gospel message will not return void...it will go out and the Holy Spirit will bring in those the Father has elected. 

without Election, the gospel falls apart and is hopeless.

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

ask her if she is choosing to NOT believe in the verses discussing election and predestination, or if she has a view on them. The verses are there....to either accept as scripture or to throw away.


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## anotherpilgrim (Apr 30, 2012)

I think my friend is coming from the perspective that, yes, man is incapable of choosing a relationship with God or responding to the gospel without God first beginning the work in them, however, somethings doesn't seem right if everyone is not on the same playing field in their inability to choose (though she does agree with me that as a fallen human, truth won't always 'feel right' to us) . So in her view Christ's death and resurrection make the possibility of redemption/salvation available to everyone, which maybe makes her leaning towards the Arminian view. 

From her perspective, since the Bible says anyone who believes and confesses Christ as Lord, even if he was 'predestined' to go to hell will based on his faith and confession go to heaven. We keep going around in circles about this very point.

I've tried to explain to her that the set of all people who want forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord, is exactly equal and one-to-one with the set of people who are in the elect. So talking about people who were predestined to hell but end up confessing and being 're-routed' to heaven is... a contradiction? (for lack of a better term?)

I feel like she is confusing something here that I'm not able to show clearly or bring out clearly for her to see.


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## kappazei (Apr 30, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> the set of all people who want forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord, is exactly equal and one-to-one with the set of people who are in the elect



I really like that line!


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## Theoretical (May 1, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> I think my friend is coming from the perspective that, yes, man is incapable of choosing a relationship with God or responding to the gospel without God first beginning the work in them, however, somethings doesn't seem right if everyone is not on the same playing field in their inability to choose (though she does agree with me that as a fallen human, truth won't always 'feel right' to us) . So in her view Christ's death and resurrection make the possibility of redemption/salvation available to everyone, which maybe makes her leaning towards the Arminian view.
> 
> From her perspective, since the Bible says anyone who believes and confesses Christ as Lord, even if he was 'predestined' to go to hell will based on his faith and confession go to heaven. We keep going around in circles about this very point.
> 
> ...



The doctrinal matters of God's sovereignty and His goodness really show their practical weightiness when it comes to deep, agonizing SUFFERING. You do an afflicted and suffering person 0 good if you can say "I really don't know why this is happening and God's hurting too but this just kind of happened." No, Scripture clearly teaches that His people's sufferings are not in vain and that He will right injustice and wipe away tears, and even more that these things will be good for us and bring Him glory. Add to that the fact that we know why the greatest evil was done (redemption of sinners by Christ's innocent blood), so that our lesser afflictions don't have to make sense this side of heaven, and you have the only true comfort possible to give to the despairing saint battered and bruised by wave after wave of affliction, injustice, and wickedness.


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## crimsonleaf (May 1, 2012)

When I accepted the Doctrines of Grace I started to worship a different God. Not the God who makes a general offer of salvation, who is powerless without our say so, but the God who actively chooses and has all things in His hand. Not the God whose Son died for the sins of those now in Hell, but the God whose Son died for His elect, His chosen people.

That makes a difference to my daily walk


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## anotherpilgrim (May 1, 2012)

kappazei said:


> anotherpilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > the set of all people who want forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord, is exactly equal and one-to-one with the set of people who are in the elect
> ...



Haha =) In a lot of discussions with people about these doctrines, I get responses like 'believing in election will lead to people not trying as hard to work out their salvation or ensure their calling", etc. I keep telling people if you are talking about someone who is 'elect' but doesn't care about passionately following God, you aren't talking about the ELECT!! The Elect have certain characteristics that define them: want forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord, seek to follow his commands and teachings, daily engage in spiritual battle for their faith, etc. To talk about someone who doesn't have these characteristics as being among the 'elect' is a contradiction! I seem to have a lot of difficulty explaining this to people, 'cause I keep getting this kind of a leads-to-fatalism response. So lately I've been trying to use math, set-theory language with some of my science/math background friends to explain this =)




Theoretical said:


> The doctrinal matters of God's sovereignty and His goodness really show their practical weightiness when it comes to deep, agonizing SUFFERING. You do an afflicted and suffering person 0 good if you can say "I really don't know why this is happening and God's hurting too but this just kind of happened." No, Scripture clearly teaches that His people's sufferings are not in vain and that He will right injustice and wipe away tears, and even more that these things will be good for us and bring Him glory. Add to that the fact that we know why the greatest evil was done (redemption of sinners by Christ's innocent blood), so that our lesser afflictions don't have to make sense this side of heaven, and you have the only true comfort possible to give to the despairing saint battered and bruised by wave after wave of affliction, injustice, and wickedness.



I think the friend I referred to in the beginning, and quite a few of my friends actually, would heartily agree with the latter part of your statement about having certainty of a purpose and God's glory in our afflictions and sufferings. In other words, they are absolutely willing to and passionately proclaim the sovereignty of God in our trials, but they don't extend that to salvation, election, and everything else... Personally, I find that an inconsistent position, and I'm at a loss to understand it.




NB3K said:


> Read this sermon by Calvin on Ephesian's 1:3-4. Calvin answers your questions in a pastoral manner.
> 
> *Calvin's Sermon on Ephesian's 1:3-7*


Thank you for this link! I will def. read through this.




crimsonleaf said:


> When I accepted the Doctrines of Grace I started to worship a different God. Not the God who makes a general offer of salvation, who is powerless without our say so, but the God who actively chooses and has all things in His hand. Not the God whose Son died for the sins of those now in Hell, but the God whose Son died for His elect, His chosen people.
> 
> That makes a difference to my daily walk


Likewise! I know what my faith was like before I understood these doctrines and what it is like now and it's a world of a difference. It entirely changes the lenses through which you view the spiritual life! I'm very eager for my friends to get this difference!


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## Mushroom (May 1, 2012)

anotherpilgrim said:


> I'm very eager for my friends to get this difference!


Don't hold your breath waiting for that one... don't let it get you down if they don't, either.
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