# Music from a library



## Joseph Scibbe (May 13, 2012)

This is a thread branched from another thread (http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/ip-8th-commandment-74117/) but I didn't want to disrupt the topic of the OP.

I was wondering if it was violation of either Biblical standards or US law to copy music from a CD I loan from a library. I would not be selling copies just using it for my personal enjoyment.


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## Tim (May 13, 2012)

Is this not really the same question over again?


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## kodos (May 13, 2012)

Yes, it is a violation of US Law.


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## toddpedlar (May 13, 2012)

Joseph Scibbe said:


> This is a thread branched from another thread (http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/ip-8th-commandment-74117/) but I didn't want to disrupt the topic of the OP.
> 
> I was wondering if it was violation of either Biblical standards or US law to copy music from a CD I loan from a library. I would not be selling copies just using it for my personal enjoyment.



Yes, it's a violation of both. The same would be true of books checked out from the library if you Xeroxed them all and kept them. The purpose of the library is not to provide a free repository for people to obtain books and music for permanent ownership without paying for them. They are a "lending" facility - they own the material because they paid for it. You do not, because you have not. As Tim has said, this is exactly the same question as in the other thread - and the answer is the same. It is theft.


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## Joseph Scibbe (May 14, 2012)

Thanks. I wasn't sure how the library system worked. I thought my question was different due to the fact that no profit was being made by anyone. Thanks. Mods can shut this one down now.


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## J. Dean (May 14, 2012)

Joseph Scibbe said:


> This is a thread branched from another thread (http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/ip-8th-commandment-74117/) but I didn't want to disrupt the topic of the OP.
> 
> I was wondering if it was violation of either Biblical standards or US law to copy music from a CD I loan from a library. I would not be selling copies just using it for my personal enjoyment.



To copy them to a CD for yourself to listen to in a car for example? No.

To copy them and sell them? Yes.


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## toddpedlar (May 14, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Joseph Scibbe said:
> 
> 
> > This is a thread branched from another thread (http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/ip-8th-commandment-74117/) but I didn't want to disrupt the topic of the OP.
> ...



Mr. Dean, you are an author. If you really do feel this way, then I hope you won't mind me finding a copy of all your authored works, Xeroxing them, and then handing them out on a Manhattan street corner. Your sales will be impacted negatively, but apparently you think this is ok.

Your position on this is hard to reconcile with any reasonable notion of the creative arts. When someone creates music, records it, and puts it up for sale, it is something found in the market place that the artist has every right to expect will result in sales for each copy. By copying CD's and adding them to one's digital library permanently, he is obtaining the material without cost to himself, and denying the company (and the artists) their rightful due. You can have the music without paying for it. This is simply theft. If one decides to then go forth and sell the copied material, then this is merely an aggravation of the original sin of stealing the material in the first place.


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## crimsonleaf (May 14, 2012)

This has recently hit the news in the UK. Authors are not generally enamored with the library concept, but use it as a springboard to sell further or previous works. Every book, tape or CD copied (or indeed lent) is a revenue loss for the author. If you, or anyone else, wants a permanent copy of a work for your personal continued enjoyment, then you should buy it.

Seriously.


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## jogri17 (May 14, 2012)

Technically it is not a violation according to the best knowledge of US or international copyright laws. It would only be illegal if the person to whom you gave the CD made a copy or backed it up digitally for themselves. You are allowed to make your own backups and loan music, but they cannot make copies for themselves. 

If I may offer a practical suggestion as to how do this best in the 21st century. I buy all my music through Amazon (and to a lesser extent itunes) because it is the cheapest and I download them as mp3. If I want to share music legally, I only do so with friends and people I trust, so after a period of time I can delete the files and tell them. I always ask 2 or 3 times if they deleted the files. If they lie and didn't, well, I did nothing illegal and that is between them, the law, their conscience, and God. I also don't do it often, but I make exceptions for people I know and trust. But I never buy CDs. The last CD I bought was U2's ''all that you can leave behind''. needless to say I was an early adapter of digital music. It's a good way to go and I encourage it.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------




crimsonleaf said:


> If you, or anyone else, wants a permanent copy of a work for your personal continued enjoyment, then you should buy it.


 Certainly it would be wrong to copy music and distribute and sinful, but I don't think it is ''loss of revenu'' for one person to share his library on multiple computers. It my humble opinion, this is an example of corporate greed angry that technology allows consumers to be able to have a say in things. The Music industry would love to go back to the days of reccords and radios, when it was near impossible to copy music. Than copying music with tape players came, ok, they tolerated it but it wasn't massive, so if you wanted good quality you had to buy another copy for your house and your office. While much (probably most) of lose of revenue is due to piracy (something in which I refuse to participate), a good portion is due to consumers who have used technology to exercise their rights as consumers. The technology of the music and video industry has been democratized and available to all persons, which means that big corporations are forced to give in and concede ground they never had to before, and much of this is legal; it is just the technology was not as accessible for the consumer as in the past.


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## VictorBravo (May 14, 2012)

jogri17 said:


> Technically it is not a violation according to the best knowledge of US or international copyright laws.



Before giving technical legal advice, I'd suggest you take a look at the Copyright statute passed by Congress. Particularly look at section 109, which addresses the issue of "legal copies" and distribution of them. You might find that, "technically" and substantively, you have very little basis to say that copying a work obtained by loan is justifiable:



> 17 USC section 109(b)(1)(A)(d)
> 
> The privileges prescribed by subsections (a) and (c) do not, unless authorized by the copyright owner, extend to any person who has acquired possession of the copy or phonorecord from the copyright owner, by rental, lease, loan, or otherwise, without acquiring ownership of it.


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## jogri17 (May 14, 2012)

Ahh, I misunderstood the question. I thought ''library'' refereed to personal digital library and not a traditional one. In that case, because you are not the legal owner, it would be wrong to make a copy of the files, even if you delete them after later on because you are not the owner.


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## Edward (May 14, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> To copy them to a CD for yourself to listen to in a car for example? No.
> 
> To copy them and sell them? Yes.



Wrong.


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## VictorBravo (May 14, 2012)

Edward said:


> J. Dean said:
> 
> 
> > To copy them to a CD for yourself to listen to in a car for example? No.
> ...



Right. 

(As in Edward is right.  )

It really is a straightforward concept. Fair use *might* mean that you can make personal backup copies or copies to use on different personal devices (it seems to be the trend, but is still a grey area). But that fair use cannot exceed the original use permitted.

If you borrow from a library, you have to return it. That time limit is expressly in your license to use the recording. Even if you made copies during the lending period for use on other devices, you'd be bound to delete those copies once the lending period expires.


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## wraezor (May 24, 2012)

As a slight aside, I believe copying library music is *not* illegal in Canada. Copyright Act if someone wants to prove me wrong.

Whether it is immoral is a much more difficult question, especially considering copyrighting is a very new concept. I tend to think it is immoral (even though legally permitted here), and at one point I endured the painful process of deleting a large music collection.


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## OPC'n (May 24, 2012)

Joseph Scibbe said:


> This is a thread branched from another thread (http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/ip-8th-commandment-74117/) but I didn't want to disrupt the topic of the OP.
> 
> I was wondering if it was violation of either Biblical standards or US law to copy music from a CD I loan from a library. I would not be selling copies just using it for my personal enjoyment.



I think it would be wrong


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## au5t1n (May 24, 2012)

If I value an artist's work enough that I want to own a permanent copy of it so I can listen to it repeatedly, why wouldn't I want to provide the artist (and those who helped the artist produce, distribute, and market the work) fair compensation for the benefit I have gained from them?


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## jogri17 (May 24, 2012)

It is true that Canada has the most bizzare copyright laws in the world. This is why we cannot get as good as a netflix selection or get hulu here. It's pretty much a free-for-all situation here. It is illegal to upload content, but not illegal to download... plus the RCMP has it as policy to not prosecute violators.


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