# RTS Orlando



## Dogfreid

Hi, I'm new to this board.

Are there any RTS Orlando seminarians here? If so, how do you like it there?

Even if you're not a student there but wish to share an assessment of the school, please do. I'm looking to go there at the end of the year.

Thanks.


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## greenbaggins

It is a mixed bag. On the one hand, you've got John Muether and Charles Hill, both as solid as they come. On the other hand, you've got Waltke, Frame, and Kidd, who are anything but confessionally Reformed. Nicole is good, but emeritus, as is Kistemaker. Futato is a lot like Meredith Kline (taught with Kline at WSC for a while), with Kline's good points and not-so-good points. Overall, as a seminary, I cannot recommend it. RTS Jackson is much much more solid, as is Charlotte.


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## KMK

greenbaggins said:


> It is a mixed bag. On the one hand, you've got John Muether and Charles Hill, both as solid as they come. On the other hand, you've got Waltke, Frame, and Kidd, who are anything but confessionally Reformed. Nicole is good, but emeritus, as is Kistemaker. Futato is a lot like Meredith Kline (taught with Kline at WSC for a while), with Kline's good points and not-so-good points. Overall, as a seminary, I cannot recommend it. RTS Jackson is much much more solid, as is Charlotte.



You cannot recommend Frame as a professor? Is it because of his views on the RPW?


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## greenbaggins

KMK said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a mixed bag. On the one hand, you've got John Muether and Charles Hill, both as solid as they come. On the other hand, you've got Waltke, Frame, and Kidd, who are anything but confessionally Reformed. Nicole is good, but emeritus, as is Kistemaker. Futato is a lot like Meredith Kline (taught with Kline at WSC for a while), with Kline's good points and not-so-good points. Overall, as a seminary, I cannot recommend it. RTS Jackson is much much more solid, as is Charlotte.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot recommend Frame as a professor? Is it because of his views on the RPW?
Click to expand...


It is because of many, many things. The RPW is one, his views on the confessions are another, his allowance of FV theology and NPP theology is another (he is probably not one himself, but he doesn't think that Shepherd is a problem), his multi-perspectivalism leaves much to be desired.


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## KenPierce

Of the RTS campuses, Charlotte is far and away the most BIbilically-oriented, well-rounded in terms of faculty, and attractively located.

Jackson has a solid foundation, but needs to attract more full-time faculty and MDiv students, In my humble opinion, to remain viable.


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## Stephen

KenPierce said:


> Of the RTS campuses, Charlotte is far and away the most BIbilically-oriented, well-rounded in terms of faculty, and attractively located.
> 
> Jackson has a solid foundation, but needs to attract more full-time faculty and MDiv students, In my humble opinion, to remain viable.




The new President at the Charlotte campus is a very godly man. He is confessionally solid and will do a great job in keeping that school as a Reformed seminary. I would highly recommend the Charlotte campus, but I agree with Lane about the Orlando campus. Sproul, Sr. was very concerned about its direction before he stopped teaching there a number of years ago.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Anyone know if RTS-Charlotte will ever offer a Th.M?


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## Romans922

I am graduating from RTS Jackson in a week 

I have liked RTS Jackson and especially the Bible, History, and Theology departments.

They have actually just hired at least one if not two professors (full-time) [Apologetics/Philosophy and Old Testament].

I would recommend Charlotte or Jackson. I agree with what others have said about Orlando above.

For expenditures, if you have some money go to Charlotte (living costs are really expensive) if you are not familiar with money then I'd suggest going to Jackson (living costs are less than most places and it is a good cultural experience).


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## KenPierce

*Barnes is a dead man*

Now that Barnes is gone, not worth attending any more.

Barnes, just wait till I get you on the floor of presbytery.

You might want to acquaint yourself with all the kings of Judah, and Israel, and Assyria, and their wives, and how long they reigned, and what the years were.

Oh, yeah, and I would read all of Owen too.


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## Dogfreid

Thanks for the replies.

But does it help if I clarify that I'm not too interested in whether or not a professor is _confessionally_ Reformed or not?


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## Romans922

KenPierce said:


> Now that Barnes is gone, not worth attending any more.
> 
> Barnes, just wait till I get you on the floor of presbytery.
> 
> You might want to acquaint yourself with all the kings of Judah, and Israel, and Assyria, and their wives, and how long they reigned, and what the years were.
> 
> Oh, yeah, and I would read all of Owen too.



HA, I don't think I have to worry about your questions, you haven't been showing up lately!!!

I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!


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## Romans922

Dogfreid said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But does it help if I clarify that I'm not too interested in whether or not a professor is _confessionally_ Reformed or not?



What are you interested in?


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## KenPierce

*Trashing Andrew and Confessional Profs.*



Romans922 said:


> I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!



Keep digging your grave, son! 

Here's my vote 

And, to the person who is not concerned about the confessionalism of profs: Trust me, you will regret it later, if you aren't aware and concerned about it now.


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## greenbaggins

Dogfreid said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But does it help if I clarify that I'm not too interested in whether or not a professor is _confessionally_ Reformed or not?



 You aren't? You should be concerned. People who are not confessionally Reformed will lead people away from the Reformed faith, not closer to it.


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## Blue Tick

> You aren't? You should be concerned. People who are not confessionally Reformed will lead people away from the Reformed faith, not closer to it.






Please explain your position? Why aren't you concerned?


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## Zenas

I'm konfyoozed. I thought Frame was a solid apologetics professor.


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## Dogfreid

Andrew, great question! I should have stated this from the beginning.

My goal is to be as equipped as possible to to do any of the following in the future with excellence: 1) Pastor, 2) Teach, 3) Write (in no order). Maybe it's just one of these, maybe two, maybe all three.

Apropos #1, since I haven't as of yet discovered which denomination I am "in the tank for," I don't have a preference as to whether or not my professors are from this group or that group, or this confession or that confession or no confession. I would want them to be Calvinistic, but my primary concern is that they'd teach their subject matter really well.

Apropos #3, I'm wondering what an M.Div from RTS Orlando can do to prepare me in this regard. I understand that no seminary will be able to create talent where there are no intimations of talent to begin with, but compared to other seminaries, how effective would an M.Div from RTS Orlando be in preparing me for a career of theological writing?

Feel free to recommend other seminaries.


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## KenPierce

*Confession Geeks and Anti-Confession Worldlings*

Berny,

I think what you would find is that the less confessional a prof is, the points at which he takes issue with the confession, is precisely its Calvinism, not whether taking the trash out on Sunday is a violation of the Fourth Commandment.

Trust me, as one who's been there, you want conservative guys, no matter what denom you end up in. The war in the seminaries is between the guys that reverence the past, and have learned from it (but are not bound by it), versus the guys who want to shuttle it completely. There really doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

And, Barnes, no matter how confessional you are, you are still toast when you come up before MVP. You've ticked off the wrong preacher!


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## Dogfreid

greenbaggins said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But does it help if I clarify that I'm not too interested in whether or not a professor is _confessionally_ Reformed or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You aren't? You should be concerned. People who are not confessionally Reformed will lead people away from the Reformed faith, not closer to it.
Click to expand...


My own background is that I've become a Calvinist apart from the confessions and apart from confessionally-guided Reformed. While they mean a lot to me in that I agree with most everything they have to say much more than I agree with other confessions and creedal statements, I'm not too interested in any "one" way of Calvinistic adaptation for ministry. At least not at this point.

I actually identify with someone like Dr. Frame much more than I do with someone who is more closely attached to the confessional identity.


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## Reformed Covenanter

greenbaggins said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a mixed bag. On the one hand, you've got John Muether and Charles Hill, both as solid as they come. On the other hand, you've got Waltke, Frame, and Kidd, who are anything but confessionally Reformed. Nicole is good, but emeritus, as is Kistemaker. Futato is a lot like Meredith Kline (taught with Kline at WSC for a while), with Kline's good points and not-so-good points. Overall, as a seminary, I cannot recommend it. RTS Jackson is much much more solid, as is Charlotte.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot recommend Frame as a professor? Is it because of his views on the RPW?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is because of many, many things. The RPW is one, his views on the confessions are another, his allowance of FV theology and NPP theology is another (he is probably not one himself, but he doesn't think that Shepherd is a problem), his multi-perspectivalism leaves much to be desired.
Click to expand...


In one of the endnotes in Salvation Belongs to the Lord (which is an excellent book on the whole), Dr. Frame says that Norman Shepherd's views on justification are within the Reformed tradition - even though he claims to disagree with them.


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## greenbaggins

Personally, these are the seminaries I recommend: Westminster California, New Geneva, MARS, Westminster Dallas, RTS Jackson and Charlotte, Greenville, and maybe Westminster East, if the biblical studies departments achieve greater confessionalism.


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## Reformed Covenanter

greenbaggins said:


> Personally, these are the seminaries I recommend: Westminster California, New Geneva, MARS, Westminster Dallas, RTS Jackson and Charlotte, Greenville, and maybe Westminster East, if the biblical studies departments achieve greater confessionalism.



A friend of mine - who is now a Baptist Pastor in Co. Donegal - did a Masters at Westminster East. He told me that many in the Biblical departments were sympathetic to the NPP.


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## KenPierce

Then Orlando's probably the place for you.

Nobody there knows what they believe. There is no unifying identity.

That is why they are out flying blind on the gender egalitarianism front, too.

You might want to consider a little humility before the confessions. They are not SCriptures, but they do show how the Holy SPirit has shaped the mind of the church. 

THe church is not a bunch of freewheeling individuals left to their own private interpretations of Scripture. It is a community of faith working out its beliefs with fear and trembling coram deo. 

Make mistakes? Sure it has. 

But, what you have said is like saying "Well, I like the Nicene Creed, I guess. I find myself closer to it than other creeds. But I really don't see why it's necessary."

Well, it's necessary because somebody attacked Jesus. And the only way to defend his honor and name is by clearly stating where the church stands. Creeds did not come out nowhere. They would not be necessary if it weren't for heresy.

So, to denigrate them is to despise how the Holy Spirit works in the churches, and really to despise the church as the community of faith. This is the whole problem with unaccountable ecclesiastical scholars, too. They don't have to answer to the pew for their gospel-obscuring oddities. But, their sycophantic followers go out and wreck churches with them.

Be very wary of this. Sorry if this comes across as harsh.


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## Dogfreid

Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to reply! Your insight is appreciated.

I agree that it is important to sit under the teaching of conservative teachers as opposed to more liberal ones. I wouldn't be interested in learning from somebody who wants to "shuttle the past completely." Instead, I'd love to train under men who learn from the past but are not bound by it, as you put it. My current pastor is a great example of this.


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## greenbaggins

Daniel Ritchie said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, these are the seminaries I recommend: Westminster California, New Geneva, MARS, Westminster Dallas, RTS Jackson and Charlotte, Greenville, and maybe Westminster East, if the biblical studies departments achieve greater confessionalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A friend of mine - who is now a Baptist Pastor in Co. Donegal - did a Masters at Westminster East. He told me that many in the Biblical departments were sympathetic to the NPP.
Click to expand...


Who is your friend? I knew an Irishman at seminary. It might be the same guy. Definitely, some of them at WTS are sympathetic. However, there is question as to whether or not they will stay.


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## Reformed Covenanter

greenbaggins said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, these are the seminaries I recommend: Westminster California, New Geneva, MARS, Westminster Dallas, RTS Jackson and Charlotte, Greenville, and maybe Westminster East, if the biblical studies departments achieve greater confessionalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A friend of mine - who is now a Baptist Pastor in Co. Donegal - did a Masters at Westminster East. He told me that many in the Biblical departments were sympathetic to the NPP.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is your friend? I knew an Irishman at seminary. It might be the same guy. Definitely, some of them at WTS are sympathetic. However, there is question as to whether or not they will stay.
Click to expand...


Barry Reid. He is from Larne.


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## PuritanCovenanter

KenPierce said:


> And, Barnes, no matter how confessional you are, you are still toast when you come up before MVP. You've ticked off the wrong preacher!



Po Andwoo,

He ain godda chance.

Andrew,
Just treck yorn hiney on up here to the Ohio Presbyters and plead your case.


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## Dogfreid

Ken, you wrote:
"But, what you have said is like saying 'Well, I like the Nicene Creed, I guess. I find myself closer to it than other creeds. But I really don't see why it's necessary.'"

But I haven't said anything like this.

I actually consider the Reformed confessions the purest expressions of the Christian faith around. Hopefully you don't still think that I've "denigrated" them.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I have had acquaintances who would recommend Greenville. If I could go somewhere it would probably be there or to Mid America since it is closer to home and Cornelius P. Venema is there. 

Greenvile Presbyterian Theological Seminary

Mid America Reformed Seminary


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## KenPierce

*Denigrating Confessions*



Dogfreid said:


> Ken, you wrote:
> "But, what you have said is like saying 'Well, I like the Nicene Creed, I guess. I find myself closer to it than other creeds. But I really don't see why it's necessary.'"
> 
> But I haven't said anything like this.
> 
> I actually consider the Reformed confessions the purest expressions of the Christian faith around. Hopefully you don't still think that I've "denigrated" them.



Berny,

Sorry if the response was heated.

Just take it from those of us who have been through seminaries (and I am not a hidebound type, I don't think). The problem with seminaries is that they are academic in the bad sense --that is, too many profs think the seminary exists for the sake of the academy. 

They forget that the seminary serves the church, and primarily the pulpit.

Thus, confessional fidelity is a sine qua non, is it not? Again, the confessions aren't Scripture --the WCF could probably be improved upon at certain points (more for clarity and consistency than anything else). The point is, it's not up to individuals to alter confessions. It is not up to seminary profs, no matter how learned they are. It is up to presbyters meeting, and struggling, and debating, and, most of all, praying.

The reason we have so much discord in the PCA currently is, at least in part, because we have everyone just doing what is right in his own eyes, and no-one reverencing the communion of the saints as the primary key for finding out the mind of Christ in the Scriptures.

We need the church!

Here endeth the sermon 

Andrew, if you even hint at going to another presbytery to get ordained, I will hunt you down like a dog.


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## Romans922

KenPierce said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken, you wrote:
> "But, what you have said is like saying 'Well, I like the Nicene Creed, I guess. I find myself closer to it than other creeds. But I really don't see why it's necessary.'"
> 
> But I haven't said anything like this.
> 
> I actually consider the Reformed confessions the purest expressions of the Christian faith around. Hopefully you don't still think that I've "denigrated" them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berny,
> 
> Sorry if the response was heated.
> 
> Just take it from those of us who have been through seminaries (and I am not a hidebound type, I don't think). The problem with seminaries is that they are academic in the bad sense --that is, too many profs think the seminary exists for the sake of the academy.
> 
> They forget that the seminary serves the church, and primarily the pulpit.
> 
> Thus, confessional fidelity is a sine qua non, is it not? Again, the confessions aren't Scripture --the WCF could probably be improved upon at certain points (more for clarity and consistency than anything else). The point is, it's not up to individuals to alter confessions. It is not up to seminary profs, no matter how learned they are. It is up to presbyters meeting, and struggling, and debating, and, most of all, praying.
> 
> The reason we have so much discord in the PCA currently is, at least in part, because we have everyone just doing what is right in his own eyes, and no-one reverencing the communion of the saints as the primary key for finding out the mind of Christ in the Scriptures.
> 
> We need the church!
> 
> Here endeth the sermon
> 
> Andrew, if you even hint at going to another presbytery to get ordained, I will hunt you down like a dog.
Click to expand...


I don't want to go to another presbytery.


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## PuritanCovenanter

KenPierce said:


> Andrew, if you even hint at going to another presbytery to get ordained, I will hunt you down like a dog.



I will bring Andrew up here to Jim Furey and he will be merciful I am sure. We hunt hound dogs up here. We don't need them. We train our sons and use them.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

KenPierce said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep digging your grave, son!
> 
> Here's my vote
> 
> And, to the person who is not concerned about the confessionalism of profs: Trust me, you will regret it later, if you aren't aware and concerned about it now.
Click to expand...


Amen. I unfortunately will pay the rest of my life for not attending a confessionally-reformed seminary.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

greenbaggins said:


> Personally, these are the seminaries I recommend: Westminster California, New Geneva, MARS, Westminster Dallas, RTS Jackson and Charlotte, Greenville, and maybe Westminster East, if the biblical studies departments achieve greater confessionalism.



I would add RPTS to that list.


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## dannyhyde

Dogfreid said:


> Apropos #3, I'm wondering what an M.Div from RTS Orlando can do to prepare me in this regard. I understand that no seminary will be able to create talent where there are no intimations of talent to begin with, but compared to other seminaries, how effective would an M.Div from RTS Orlando be in *preparing me for a career of theological writing?*



Berny,

A career in theological writing? How much money do you think you can make writing theology books? Ask any of us who have written a book or two and we'll bring you back down to reality.


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## reformedman

I believe we have too many writers and books rehashing the same ideas over and over. And although different perspectives are good, I think there has already been enough to have a good enough variety of perspectives.

When I hear from some aquaintances of mine that say, "I'd like to write on something theological but I just don't know on what yet," I get nervous.

Books are getting smaller and smaller by the volume and easier to read. Youtube and Godtube are editing there editted clips of clips that have been editted to size already. Things are being made too easy, and easy is not the problem but the best truths can be found in Owen, Baxter and Ryle etc... why do we need to rehash it further than what has been done already by Pink, Piper, and Packer. 

I believe a main reason why a person would want to write on a subject that has not grown in new ideas for hundreds of years would be financial gain, fame, or the sincere naiveté that they didn't know that there was already an excellent book on the subject.

This post is in no way meant to disrespect, but has been a real concern to me for a long time and saw an opportunity on the subject to unleash the rant. lol.


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## KMK

reformedman said:


> I believe we have too many writers and books rehashing the same ideas over and over. And although different perspectives are good, I think there has already been enough to have a good enough variety of perspectives.
> 
> When I hear from some aquaintances of mine that say, "I'd like to write on something theological but I just don't know on what yet," I get nervous.
> 
> Books are getting smaller and smaller by the volume and easier to read. Youtube and Godtube are editing there editted clips of clips that have been editted to size already. Things are being made too easy, and easy is not the problem but the best truths can be found in Owen, Baxter and Ryle etc... why do we need to rehash it further than what has been done already by Pink, Piper, and Packer.
> 
> I believe a main reason why a person would want to write on a subject that has not grown in new ideas for hundreds of years would be financial gain, fame, or the sincere naiveté that they didn't know that there was already an excellent book on the subject.
> 
> This post is in no way meant to disrespect, but has been a real concern to me for a long time and saw an opportunity on the subject to unleash the rant. lol.



These are some very good points! You should put them in a book!


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## Dogfreid

dannyhyde said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apropos #3, I'm wondering what an M.Div from RTS Orlando can do to prepare me in this regard. I understand that no seminary will be able to create talent where there are no intimations of talent to begin with, but compared to other seminaries, how effective would an M.Div from RTS Orlando be in *preparing me for a career of theological writing?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berny,
> 
> A career in theological writing? How much money do you think you can make writing theology books? Ask any of us who have written a book or two and we'll bring you back down to reality.
Click to expand...


I would hope to have a steadier job than that of a writer, but I love studying theology and writing on it. I would love to get into scholarly work.

It's just like a philosophy degree. It's highly unlikely that a philosophy major or even a philosophy master will make a lot of money (or any) as a writer, but there are other things that can supplement that, such as a teaching post.

I'd love to hear your thoughts though. Please share.


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## jaybird0827

to the PB. Nice to have you.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

joshua said:


> What is MARS, and what do you think of Beeke's PRTS?



Mid-America Reformed Seminary Dyer, IN

at: www.midamerica.edu/


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Does MARS plan on a Th.M anytime soon?


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## Presbyterian Deacon

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Does MARS plan on a Th.M anytime soon?




Follow the link in the previous post to their site. I think you could probably make your inquiry there somewhere.


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## Zenas

Berny,

I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.


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## SolaScriptura

Berny - 

If confessionalism is not that big a deal to you... and it seems that you would actually PREFER a more "broad" perspective... Have you considered TEDS or Gordon-Conwell? Both are good - if not GREAT - in terms of academics. 

In fact, I think that given your stated goals, either of these - particularly TEDS - would be a near perfect fit for you.

Take care,
Ben


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## Dogfreid

Ben,

Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.

I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.

But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.

What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.


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## Dogfreid

Zenas said:


> Berny,
> 
> I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.



Yes, I suspect this might be the path to take indeed.

Thanks Zenas.


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## AV1611

Dogfreid said:


> I love studying theology and writing on it.



You are certainly to be commended for a love of studying theology. Just remember that the best scholars are those who can explain deep theological truths to the high-school dropout.


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## Romans922

Zenas said:


> Berny,
> 
> I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.



This would be foolish if one is not called. I suggest talking to one's pastor/session about this decision.


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## timmopussycat

Dogfreid said:


> I would hope to have a steadier job than that of a writer, but I love studying theology and writing on it. I would love to get into scholarly work.
> 
> It's just like a philosophy degree. It's highly unlikely that a philosophy major or even a philosophy master will make a lot of money (or any) as a writer, but there are other things that can supplement that, such as a teaching post.
> 
> I'd love to hear your thoughts though. Please share.



My thoughts FWTW. 
Unless you know, repeat, know that God is calling you into a ministry of teaching, RUN repeat RUN as fast and as far away from it as you can. James 3:1 is in the Bible for a reason. The only reason I recently engaged in some theological writing was that I knew that a particular job needed to be done and nobody else was doing it.


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## KenPierce

Berny,

Most confessional guys are not going to hit you real hard for being a CJ Mahaney type on either worship or the gifts.

The big hot button issues for our progressives, I think, concern the issues of inerrancy, gender roles, the doctrines of grace themselves, and the nature of the gospel.

That's why I think you want a confessionally square guy, not for TR reasons, if you will.


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## Dena

Dogfreid said:


> Ben,
> 
> Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.
> 
> I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.
> 
> But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). *If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.*
> What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.




why?


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## Dena

KenPierce said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep digging your grave, son!
> 
> Here's my vote
Click to expand...



HEY!


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## Dogfreid

Dena said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ben,
> 
> Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.
> 
> I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.
> 
> But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). *If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.*
> What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why?
Click to expand...


Because my wife and I agree that once we have kids she won't work a job any longer. And if this happens while at seminary in Orlando, we can simply move back down to Miami and I can make the drive to and from Orlando for a couple of days each week. This is how my pastor did it. And in this situation my wife could potentially work one or two days at the family business while either of our parents take care of the baby. That way we gain some additional income and the baby gets a chance to spend some quality time with his/her grandparents.


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## Dogfreid

BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!


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## KenPierce

Dena said:


> KenPierce said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep digging your grave, son!
> 
> Here's my vote
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> HEY!
Click to expand...


Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!! 

I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:

Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?

BArnes: Yes, why.

Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....



Seriously kidding.


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## Romans922

KenPierce said:


> Dena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KenPierce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep digging your grave, son!
> 
> Here's my vote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HEY!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!!
> 
> I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:
> 
> Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?
> 
> BArnes: Yes, why.
> 
> Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously kidding.
Click to expand...


She cares about me, that's all. She doesn't run the house or anything. She just loves me. 

If you allow me in, I will work to get you defrocked my good sir, for these words you have said here on the PB. I can see it now...

UMMMM....jk. I heard you preached a real humdinger last night!


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## Covenant Joel

No offense intended to those have been dissing RTS-O, but I wonder how many of those completely opposed to it have actually attended classes here. 

Yes, RTS-O is not as confessionally reformed as some others. However, professors here do not fudge on Calvinism as some have suggested. Some would take exceptions to the Confession, yes, but they do not denigrate the past as some have suggested. It's a good place. Not a perfect one for sure, but a good place. It is more diverse than other Reformed seminaries, but there is some strength to that as well. Just my two cents as one who is actually here.


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## KenPierce

Romans922 said:


> KenPierce said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dena said:
> 
> 
> 
> HEY!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!!
> 
> I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:
> 
> Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?
> 
> BArnes: Yes, why.
> 
> Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously kidding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She cares about me, that's all. She doesn't run the house or anything. She just loves me.
> 
> If you allow me in, I will work to get you defrocked my good sir, for these words you have said here on the PB. I can see it now...
> 
> UMMMM....jk. I heard you preached a real humdinger last night!
Click to expand...


Yes, we have REAL preaching over here at Trinity. 

I probably need to be defrocked because, unlike some in MVP, I actually believe that you can be non-cessationist, credo-baptist, and less than 7-24 and 0 nanoseconds, and still enter the kingdom!!!!


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## KenPierce

Covenant Joel said:


> No offense intended to those have been dissing RTS-O, but I wonder how many of those completely opposed to it have actually attended classes here.
> 
> Yes, RTS-O is not as confessionally reformed as some others. However, professors here do not fudge on Calvinism as some have suggested. Some would take exceptions to the Confession, yes, but they do not denigrate the past as some have suggested. It's a good place. Not a perfect one for sure, but a good place. It is more diverse than other Reformed seminaries, but there is some strength to that as well. Just my two cents as one who is actually here.



JOel,

Glad you like your seminary.

But, the issue is the public statements of professors and their wives. 

Carolyn James: Many are very concerned about Ms. CUSTIS James and her trajectory.

John Frame: Read Machen's Warrior Children, and you'll see why many are concerned about him. He is not himself, FV or NPP, but he is, in classic psychological terms, an enabler to those that are.

Reggie Kidd: Kidd started a firestorm when he started trumpeting female ordination on his blog, in public.

Add to that a professor who was hired WHILE he was under ecclesiastical discipline in California, and I think you can see why many of us might be concerned.

If questions are asked about any seminary, I would be honest in my assessment of them. They are all mixed bags, some more than others, and people need to know what they are getting before they go.
Those positions are incompatible with anything resembling the Reformed faith, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out to prospective seminarians.


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## Covenant Joel

KenPierce said:


> JOel,
> 
> Glad you like your seminary.
> 
> But, the issue is the public statements of professors and their wives.
> 
> Carolyn James: Many are very concerned about Ms. CUSTIS James and her trajectory.
> 
> John Frame: Read Machen's Warrior Children, and you'll see why many are concerned about him. He is not himself, FV or NPP, but he is, in classic psychological terms, an enabler to those that are.
> 
> Reggie Kidd: Kidd started a firestorm when he started trumpeting female ordination on his blog, in public.
> 
> Add to that a professor who was hired WHILE he was under ecclesiastical discipline in California, and I think you can see why many of us might be concerned.
> 
> If questions are asked about any seminary, I would be honest in my assessment of them. They are all mixed bags, some more than others, and people need to know what they are getting before they go.
> Those positions are incompatible with anything resembling the Reformed faith, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out to prospective seminarians.



Regarding Mrs. James, I must confess ignorance. I'm not sure why you're upset with her. Dr. James himself is an amazing prof.

Frame: I realize that many in the "confessionally Reformed" crowd are really ticked off at him for "Machen's Warrior Children" and his views on the RPW, etc. I guess I just have a lot of sympathy with what he's saying. As someone who grew up in an intensely "warrior" confessionally Reformed church, I have to be more than a little broken by the incessant warring in the Reformed camp. (Note: I am not saying that issues of FV/NPP are not important, etc, just that it seems to me that in the Reformed camp, perhaps we have warred too much and in the wrong areas, so that when it comes to really important things, some of us are written off as people looking for a fight, and others of us are just fed up with it all).

Kidd: Could you point to which blog post you are referring to? I know he did start a firestorm with his post on "Mutual Defenestration" last semester, and there was a little blurb about frustration with those who are so quick to condemn women who are pursuing truth, but I don't know that he was pushing women's ordination. Perhaps he has said something to that effect somewhere else, but I am not aware of it.

Regarding the other prof, as far as I understood it was a difficult, complex situation. He's an amazing prof, and I confess I don't know too much about the other situation. 

I fully realize that RTS-O has some issues. And I am fine with people pointing out their problems with it. But at the same time, there is some strength and help in its diversity. I would be way more frustrated at a place like Greenville personally, though I do think it is a good school and thought about it at one point.


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## KenPierce

*Re Mrs James*

You need to make yourself familiar with what Mrs. James is doing.

Go to The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood for analysis.

In my humble opinion, she is laying the groundwork for women's ordination, though, at present, she pulls back from advocating female elders.

But, all her presuppositions and exegesis points in that direction.

And, like it or not, her reputation is bound up with that of her husband's.

Note that she speaks at Christians for Biblical Equality, and has their feminist speakers at her Ezer conferences. Cf. Tim and David Bayly's blog.

Re Frame: That we often fight about wrong things NEVER exempts us from contending for the gospel. And, though I disagree with Frame on worship, that is a tertiary issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Dr. Futato's situation may have been complex, and not at all judging his teaching ability or confessional fidelity. It just made his appointment there a strange choice, particularly in regards to timing.

All that to say is: Greenville is not for everyone, maybe (and frankly I think it is vastly and unfairly underrated). 

But, there are more than two choices, are there not? My first pick for anyone, were money and distance no obstacles, would be WSC.


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## Covenant Joel

KenPierce said:


> You need to make yourself familiar with what Mrs. James is doing.
> 
> Go to The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood for analysis.
> 
> In my humble opinion, she is laying the groundwork for women's ordination, though, at present, she pulls back from advocating female elders.
> 
> But, all her presuppositions and exegesis points in that direction.
> 
> And, like it or not, her reputation is bound up with that of her husband's.
> 
> Note that she speaks at Christians for Biblical Equality, and has their feminist speakers at her Ezer conferences. Cf. Tim and David Bayly's blog.,



Perhaps I do. Dr. James just made us write a paper on complementarianism versus egalitarianism, and I certainly never got any hint of egalitarianism from him. However, I have not read his wife's works, so I must stay silent till I know more about it.



> Re Frame: That we often fight about wrong things NEVER exempts us from contending for the gospel. And, though I disagree with Frame on worship, that is a tertiary issue, as far as I'm concerned.



Agreed on your first statement. And I think Frame would agree with that. I just reread his Warrior Children piece to refresh my memory, and I think that is really what he was getting at. Machen was right to fight against liberalism. But we have started fighting about things that maybe aren't so important, we have had too much certainty about things that aren't so clear, and we have fought (even for the right truths) often in the wrong way.



> Dr. Futato's situation may have been complex, and not at all judging his teaching ability or confessional fidelity. It just made his appointment there a strange choice, particularly in regards to timing.



Granted. 



> All that to say is: Greenville is not for everyone, maybe (and frankly I think it is vastly and unfairly underrated).



Perhaps so.



> But, there are more than two choices, are there not? My first pick for anyone, were money and distance no obstacles, would be WSC.



There are more than two choices. RTS-O was my pick at the time. And let me say again I realize it isn't perfect...I don't want to paint a rosy, everything's perfect picture, because that isn't the way it is. But I think that claiming it's somehow no longer Reformed or heading towards total abandonment of Reformed orthodoxy as some claim is unfounded. If I had to go back again, I probably would have gone to WTS-Dallas. But that's because I'm from Dallas originally and I could have saved a lot of money living there, not because I think it's better...

But I'm done with this topic I think. Yes, RTS-O is more diverse than other places, talks about the Confession less, and has some profs who are somewhat looser in their interpretation of the Confession than other seminaries. But it's a good environment to learn, debate, discuss, and grow, and as I look at the senior class this year (I'm 1st year), it's turning out some very solid Reformed pastors.


----------



## Stephen

Dogfreid said:


> BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!





Berny, welcome to Puritan Board. It is nice to have you with us  I am curious why you would commute to Orlando from Miami, when Knox Seminary is in Ft. Lauderdale. This is much closer to home for you.


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## Dogfreid

Thanks for the welcome.

A couple of reasons made me decide RTS Orlando over Knox.

1) RTS Orlando just seemed like a better school. I know people that have gone to both and I weighed their opinions. I also did some research on the matter.

2) My wife and I loved the idea of moving away from what we've known for a period. We live on our own here in Miami, but we always see our families. That's a great thing, and both of us have wonderful families. But there's something exciting about doing your own thing with your wife early in marriage for a while apart from what you've known for so long. I've only been married for five months, and the prospect of being more on our own than we are now is thrilling. And Orlando provides the perfect distance from Miami. Not so close that we're seeing our friends and family multiple times a week, but not so far that we have to buy a plane ticket to see them.


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## Dena

Dogfreid said:


> BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!



sweet! I love the OP. OP, oh, how I miss thee!!! ( I really do miss it...never knew how much I would until I left.)

I miss having four perfect seasons. *sigh*


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## Dogfreid

Dena said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sweet! I love the OP. OP, oh, how I miss thee!!! ( I really do miss it...never knew how much I would until I left.)
> 
> I miss having four perfect seasons. *sigh*
Click to expand...


Yeah that's what I tell everyone down here in Miami that seems to be convinced that perfect weather is an eternal summer. They've never seen an autumn season like the one in Overland Park, Kansas!


----------



## Stephen

Dogfreid said:


> Dena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sweet! I love the OP. OP, oh, how I miss thee!!! ( I really do miss it...never knew how much I would until I left.)
> 
> I miss having four perfect seasons. *sigh*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah that's what I tell everyone down here in Miami that seems to be convinced that perfect weather is an eternal summer. They've never seen an autumn season like the one in Overland Park, Kansas!
Click to expand...


Are you from OP Kansas?  How long have you been in Miami? I was a member of Redeemer PCA in Overland Park from 1993 until 1995. I moved to Ft. Lauderdale in 1995 and entered Knox Seminary where I graduated. Wow, what a small world.


----------



## wsw201

Dogfreid said:


> Dena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sweet! I love the OP. OP, oh, how I miss thee!!! ( I really do miss it...never knew how much I would until I left.)
> 
> I miss having four perfect seasons. *sigh*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah that's what I tell everyone down here in Miami that seems to be convinced that perfect weather is an eternal summer. They've never seen an autumn season like the one in Overland Park, Kansas!
Click to expand...


What are you talking about! I lived in Miami for 7 years. They have seasons down there. When it got below 70 I remember having to put on my winter coat!


----------



## Dogfreid

Stephen said:


> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dena said:
> 
> 
> 
> sweet! I love the OP. OP, oh, how I miss thee!!! ( I really do miss it...never knew how much I would until I left.)
> 
> I miss having four perfect seasons. *sigh*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's what I tell everyone down here in Miami that seems to be convinced that perfect weather is an eternal summer. They've never seen an autumn season like the one in Overland Park, Kansas!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you from OP Kansas?  How long have you been in Miami? I was a member of Redeemer PCA in Overland Park from 1993 until 1995. I moved to Ft. Lauderdale in 1995 and entered Knox Seminary where I graduated. Wow, what a small world.
Click to expand...


I've been in Miami since 1999. My family moved from OP to Miami in the middle of my freshman year in high school. I didn't get interested in God until about 2004. The funny thing is, from 1999 to 2004 I lived in Miami, and in 2004 I left to go live on my own in OP so that I could experience the freedom to live how I wanted to live apart from my parents. I lived in an apartment complex close to Corporate Woods and worked at a Circuit City in Lenexa. Once I got saved six months into this "freedom experiment," I moved back down to Miami and I've been here ever since.

I'm currently taking a class with a guy who nearly graduated from Knox awhile back (10 hours short!). His name is John Rabe, in case you might know him.


----------



## Stephen

Dogfreid said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogfreid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's what I tell everyone down here in Miami that seems to be convinced that perfect weather is an eternal summer. They've never seen an autumn season like the one in Overland Park, Kansas!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you from OP Kansas?  How long have you been in Miami? I was a member of Redeemer PCA in Overland Park from 1993 until 1995. I moved to Ft. Lauderdale in 1995 and entered Knox Seminary where I graduated. Wow, what a small world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've been in Miami since 1999. My family moved from OP to Miami in the middle of my freshman year in high school. I didn't get interested in God until about 2004. The funny thing is, from 1999 to 2004 I lived in Miami, and in 2004 I left to go live on my own in OP so that I could experience the freedom to live how I wanted to live apart from my parents. I lived in an apartment complex close to Corporate Woods and worked at a Circuit City in Lenexa. Once I got saved six months into this "freedom experiment," I moved back down to Miami and I've been here ever since.
> 
> I'm currently taking a class with a guy who nearly graduated from Knox awhile back (10 hours short!). His name is John Rabe, in case you might know him.
Click to expand...


Overland Park is a great community. I was born and raised in Kansas City and lived in Ft. Lauderdale for eleven years. I miss Kansas City.
Yes, I know John. He was in seminary with me and was working for Coral Ridge Ministries. I wondered what happened to him. If you think about it please say hello to him for me. I am sure he will remember me but it was about six years ago I last saw him. Who is the minister at Kendall now?


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## Dena

wow. we kinda hijacked the thread, huh?
anyway...back to OP:

yay for all the OP/KC peeps! yeah, i lived there my whole life until about 2.5 years ago. I would love to move back some day, but I don't see that ever happening.
I went to Redeemer PCA in OP for about a year. thats where we were married. I went to SMN HS and graduated 2002. ha.


----------

