# Arguments against necessity of using wine for Lord's Supper



## Romans922 (May 19, 2011)

What are the arguments that you have heard or have yourself used against the necessity of using wine in the Supper? (maybe after accumulating a good list we can debate).

I'll start with some I've heard:


-Wine then didn't have as much alcohol as it does now
-Jesus says, "fruit of the vine" not "wine", He could've meant grape juice or immediate use of the liquid which is freshly squeezed from grapes
-It would be offensive to many in the church to do it today
-What about those with allergies?
-What about alcoholics or former alcoholics in the congregation?


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## Grillsy (May 19, 2011)

I will add to that "the Bible prohibits all consumption of alcohol". The tee-totaler approach.


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## Esther W. (May 19, 2011)

"Do not stumble your brother" Romans 14


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## Semper Fidelis (May 19, 2011)

You might find this Sermon helpful. It's preaching on the dangers of being over-wise and deals with many arguments of the over-wise in this area.

Danger of Being Over Wise | Naphtali Press


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## Kevin (May 19, 2011)

I'm pregnant.


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## Fly Caster (May 19, 2011)

This guy is going to be the guest preacher that day:



[video=youtube;GU0NJveseFA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU0NJveseFA[/video]


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## sastark (May 19, 2011)

Kevin said:


> I'm pregnant.




Congratulations!


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## Philip (May 19, 2011)

Families in the congregations have convictions on the matter. I have friends who, though they are aware of the Scriptural teaching on the matter, have decided that they and their families will not touch alcohol, usually because of a history of alcoholism in the family.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

Many churches offer both wine and grape juice and this seems to take care of any potential problems.


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## Romans922 (May 19, 2011)

I just got another one, 

-Wine that Jesus used was diluted with water.


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## Rufus (May 19, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> I just got another one,
> 
> -Wine that Jesus used was diluted with water.



Is there any scriptural refrences of stuff like that one? I mean its hard to say something without scriptural, cultural, or historical evience.


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## au5t1n (May 19, 2011)

Such and such isolated Amazon tribe doesn't have any vineyards so they use tropical fruit juice, therefore affluent modern American evangelical congregations can use mountain do and pizza, and if you disagree you're depriving the Amazon tribe of communion.


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## Grillsy (May 19, 2011)

Rufus said:


> Is there any scriptural refrences of stuff like that one? I mean its hard to say something without scriptural, cultural, or historical evience.



I think the argument for the wine diluted with water approach is tied to that being a common practice in NT times.


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## Rufus (May 19, 2011)

Doesn't it matter a little more on what the purpose of the Lords Supper is instead of wether what is used?

Although I believe where wine is avalible and accepted than it should be used.


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## KMK (May 19, 2011)

"It's not the element that matters, but what is in the heart."


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## KMK (May 19, 2011)

"Just as Jesus did not turn water into real wine, wine was not used in the Lord's Supper because Jesus didn't drink wine because wine is sinful."


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## Grillsy (May 19, 2011)

It was "unfermented wine" 

or 

It was new wine.


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## Romans922 (May 19, 2011)

Interesting note on "New wine", Acts 2:13 uses as an argument after Pentacost that the people were drunk! Great examples everyone, keep em coming!


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## Grillsy (May 19, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Acts 2:13 uses as an argument after Pentacost that the people were drunk!



Exactly! And when I brought that up to the gentlemen who used that argument he said "that is the point of the passage. The people were astonished at them and making fun of them because they got drunk on new wine which was impossible." 

I thought it best to end the conversation with the gentleman at that point .


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## Reformed Thomist (May 19, 2011)

KMK said:


> "It's not the element that matters, but what is in the heart."


 
Ha. In that case, bring on the tequila.


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## Philip (May 19, 2011)

Grillsy said:


> It was "unfermented wine"
> 
> or
> 
> It was new wine.



Would either of these be acceptable at the Lord's Supper?


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## Whitefield (May 19, 2011)

Is alcohol essential or circumstantial? If it is essential, what percentage alcohol is required?


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## cih1355 (May 19, 2011)

Grillsy said:


> It was "unfermented wine"
> 
> or
> 
> It was new wine.


 
Are there different kinds of wine in the New Testament? Ephesians 5:18 says that we should not get drunk with wine.


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## Grillsy (May 19, 2011)

cih1355 said:


> Are there different kinds of wine in the New Testament? Ephesians 5:18 says that we should not get drunk with wine.



Just want to clarify that I am not endorsing the view I mentioned (i.e. the that Christ used on unfermented wine). I am simply answering the OP when asked about various rationale for not serving alcohol during the Lord's Supper. 

That being said there are different kinds of wine mentioned in the Bible. There is oinos which can refer to any wine. There is also sucros which refers to new wine. My transliteration may be bad. I would rather type in Greek but lack the fonts on my laptop. 

New wine or "sucros" will still contain alcohol. In fact new wine can be stored for some time and still be considered new wine. This was especially true. in ancient times.


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## nicnap (May 19, 2011)

Joshua said:


> That's no preacher. That's an Emotion-Manipulating-Showman.



 Not one Scriptural reference in the 7 minutes that I could tolerate. Just an emotion laden P.S.A. against drunk driving. He said one thing that was correct, "Drunkenness is not a disease, it is a sin against God." Then foolishly equated all imbibing with drunkenness.


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2011)

If your still bring up arguments against it:
1)A lack of healthy respect and maturity towards an alcoholic substance, which in turn may create a distraction for the individual and also the church (in direct result of the individual) in properly taking the substance during the Supper. 

2) Having grape juice and wine distributes the perceived unity of the church, if both are present due to some members not being able for some reason to consume wine. Therefore all present members should consume grape juice to represent symbolically their unity in Christ. 

By the way am not trying to defend these, just bringing out the arguments.


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## Marrow Man (May 19, 2011)

Grillsy said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Acts 2:13 uses as an argument after Pentacost that the people were drunk!
> ...



Apparently he thought it was another miracle!


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## tman (May 20, 2011)

How about the simple fact that the new testament says "wine". Think back to the wedding at Cana, you don't give a bunch of drinkers grape juice and think that they will be fooled into thinking that it is the real thing. I come from a long line of drunks and if I were to hide all of their beer and give them a glass of "O'douls" I would probably get a fat lip. The same goes for wine drinkers. They aren't going to get a sip of Welch's and say "Wow, this is better than the rest! Why did you save the best grape juice for the last?".


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## JP Wallace (May 20, 2011)

Good list of arguments. A couple of comments.

1) It was fairly common to water wine down 1:4 in ancient times, the Greeks did it as well. Doesn't mean you shouldn't use wine at LS just that if you want to water it down you can. Warning: If you do it seems to fill the church with the aroma of real wine - no one will be in any doubt! 

2) In connection to Travis's comment above I have head a remarkable sermon where the very experienced preacher states in very unequiviocal terms that the wine at Cana was NOT alcoholic. I thought 'this will be interesting'. And it was. His argument was thus, and really you must read it with that shakey, emotion-riden voice one hears sometimes.

Our Lord would not have created alcoholic wine because that would have necessitated him creating something that displayed corruption, and corruption is the result of sin. Fermentation is corruption, and therefore connected to sin. Jesus would never have created something like that, therefore the wine was not alcoholic.

See the fatal flaw?

When Jesus 'miracled' those 2 wee fish (dead fish, because of corruption and sin!!!) into enough wee fish (dead fish, because of corruption and sin!!!) to feed 5000 men plus women and children, I 'd say he fairly clearly showed that he was prepared to create something that showed the influence of sin and corruption.

Likewise in fact the bread. The Process of bread rising is arguably a similar process to fermentation.


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## KMK (May 20, 2011)

I forgot one!

"We are not traditionalists here at _____________ Church so we serve grape juice!"


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## InSlaveryToChrist (May 20, 2011)

"The main thing is that the liquid be red, for it symbolizes the blood (which is red) of Christ."

"And if the shedding of blood was still required, we would drink blood at the Lord's Supper. For it symbolizes Christ's blood even better!"


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## Fly Caster (May 20, 2011)

nicnap said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > That's no preacher. That's an Emotion-Manipulating-Showman.
> ...


 
I hope that it's obvious that I posted that as a joke.

I am humbly grateful every day, though, for what God has brought me from. This is what I thought Christianity was for the first half of my life. The guy is a regular at the church of my teenage years.

Good thread. Don't mean to hijack.


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## fishingpipe (May 20, 2011)

One I heard a few years ago: "How do we know that it meant _grapes_ when it says 'fruit of the vine?'"  

I once spoke about the elements of communion with a gentleman who was against wine being used and he told me that wine was watered down in NT times. I asked him if we could just do that, then, and ditch the grape juice. He thought on it a bit and realized there would still be alcohol in the cup and said, "No!" I don't think he used that argument anymore.


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## athanatos (May 20, 2011)

Wine is more expensive than grape juice.


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## Philip (May 20, 2011)

Whitefield said:


> Is alcohol essential or circumstantial? If it is essential, what percentage alcohol is required?



This is my question as well. The Lord's Table is a sign of communion and fellowship---if having alcohol as part of the cup is causing a brother to stumble, then it is no longer serving this function but is instead dividing the brethren. If there are those in the body who have conscience issues concerning this, then I think it is likely better to avoid offense if at all possible. At the very least the option should be available for those with health issues and conscience reasons.


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## Grillsy (May 20, 2011)

athanatos said:


> Wine is more expensive than grape juice.



Guess the guy using that excuse never heard of Wild Irish Rose.


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## au5t1n (May 20, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > Is alcohol essential or circumstantial? If it is essential, what percentage alcohol is required?
> ...


 
I've thought about this a lot. Here are my thoughts so far: First, alcohol is definitely part of the symbolism. The warmth and "gladening" effect is part of the reason it was chosen. Second, there was plenty of alcoholism in Christ's day and God knew there would be today. Some of the Corinthians were listed to be former drunkards, and some of them were getting drunk on communion wine! For some reason he still chose to institute wine. I won't question his wisdom or providence. 

To answer the question of how we go about deciding what is essential, I'd make the case that all that is essential is "wine," i.e. fruit of the vine (grapes) that has passed through the fermentation process. Scripture does not get any more specific than "wine" so neither need we.


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## nicnap (May 20, 2011)

Fly Caster said:


> I hope that it's obvious that I posted that as a joke.



Oh, yes, I knew you did. I was just commenting on the video ... and I actually watched all 10 + minutes; there was not one single Scriptural reference.[COLOR="Silver"


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## Whitefield (May 20, 2011)

austinww said:


> I've thought about this a lot. Here are my thoughts so far: First, alcohol is definitely part of the symbolism. The warmth and "gladening" effect is part of the reason it was chosen. Second, there was plenty of alcoholism in Christ's day and God knew there would be today. Some of the Corinthians were listed to be former drunkards, and some of them were getting drunk on communion wine! For some reason he still chose to institute wine. I won't question his wisdom or providence.
> 
> To answer the question of how we go about deciding what is essential, I'd make the case that all that is essential is "wine," i.e. fruit of the vine (grapes) that has passed through the fermentation process. Scripture does not get any more specific than "wine" so neither need we.



So, if I pick some grapes on the way to church and squeezed out the juice from those grapes into a cup, then that juice could not be used immediately in the Lord's Supper that morning because I had not allowed the grape juice to ferment?


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## Philip (May 20, 2011)

austinww said:


> To answer the question of how we go about deciding what is essential, I'd make the case that all that is essential is "wine," i.e. fruit of the vine (grapes) that has passed through the fermentation process.



So the "non-alcoholic wine" that is approved for use in certain CofE churches I've attended would be acceptable, since it has gone through this process and then had the alcohol removed?


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## au5t1n (May 20, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > To answer the question of how we go about deciding what is essential, I'd make the case that all that is essential is "wine," i.e. fruit of the vine (grapes) that has passed through the fermentation process.
> ...


 
I wouldn't be likely to complain if it were given to an allergic person or someone who struggled with alcohol addiction. I don't think it should be given to the whole congregation because the alcohol, as a by-product of the fermentation process, is also an important part of the symbolism of Christ's blood, in my opinion.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 20, 2011)

Whitefield said:


> Is alcohol essential or circumstantial? If it is essential, what percentage alcohol is required?



One could make an argument that the alcohol symbolizes purification, but it is more likely that the wine is used to symbolize the blood of Christ simply because it is red, in which case the alcohol would be circumstantial and thus not neccesary.


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## Whitefield (May 20, 2011)

austinww said:


> the alcohol, as a by-product of the fermentation process, is also an important part of the symbolism of Christ's blood, in my opinion.


 
I would be interested in hearing the theology behind that. I tend to think the imagery of vine and the fruit thereof (John 15) is more important than the accidental of alcohol.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------




Bill The Baptist said:


> One could make an argument that the alcohol symbolizes purification


 
One could if one could show in scripture where wine (alcohol) and purification are shown to be connected


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## Bill The Baptist (May 20, 2011)

Whitefield said:


> I would be interested in hearing the theology behind that. I tend to think the imagery of vine and the fruit thereof (John 15) is more important than the accidental of alcohol.



In the miracle of turning the water into wine, the significance is purification. If you read carefully, you will notice that the water that Jesus used to turn into wine was the same water that the guests were using to wash their hands and feet as they entered the wedding. Essentially it was very dirty water, and yet Jesus turned it into the best wine. The symbolism is that Jesus purifies even the filthiest sinner, just as alcohol can purify the dirtiest water.


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## KMK (May 20, 2011)

Whitefield said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > the alcohol, as a by-product of the fermentation process, is also an important part of the symbolism of Christ's blood, in my opinion.
> ...


 
You can find these things debated many times through the 'search' function. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/how-deal-reformed-alcoholics-communion-52346/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/liquid-use-communion-52215/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/should-we-use-wine-during-lords-supper-if-15-members-recovery-52028/


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## fishingpipe (May 20, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> This is my question as well. The Lord's Table is a sign of communion and fellowship---if having alcohol as part of the cup is causing a brother to stumble, then it is no longer serving this function but is instead dividing the brethren. If there are those in the body who have conscience issues concerning this, then I think it is likely better to avoid offense if at all possible. At the very least the option should be available for those with health issues and conscience reasons.



I believe wine is essential. It is what Christ instituted. We should not change that. The person struggling with alcoholism should work with the elders and seek to overcome this. Perhaps he should abstain and take the bread only until he has overcome this. God's grace is sufficient to cover this sin and overcome it. 

Those with conscience issues should be taught the proper biblical perspective of wine and alcohol and communion by the elders.

Those who cannot partake due to health or medical reasons should take the bread only. On a side note, the only two I have known had the following symptoms: 1.) a little gas; 2.) a mild headache (but only if consuming a full glass or two, rarely with the thimble sized amount).

How far do we make allowances for sin? i.e. the sin of alcoholism. Or, the sinful/corrupt nature of our bodies/flesh (result of sin) that makes us have these medical issues, allergies, etc.?

I believe scripture teaches wine is the proper element. I also believe the Westminster Confession is clear on it, as well, especially in terms of describing the sign and the thing signified. (WCF Chapter 27, Section II; WCF Chapter 29, Section V., etc.) Pasteurized (dead) grape juice is a poor substitute to fermenting (living) wine. 

The matter of conscience goes both ways. I particularly dislike the fact that grape juice is served and often struggle with the fact it is there when my church offers both in the tray. I have asked my session to repent of serving it along with the wine.

I've also wondered how offering two versions of the element should be viewed in light of the RPW?

 from a simple layman.


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## au5t1n (May 20, 2011)

Whitefield said:


> I tend to think the imagery of vine and the fruit thereof (John 15) is more important than the accidental of alcohol.



This is an assumption on your part. Throughout the Bible wine is mentioned in a festive context. It is used for celebration because it is said to "gladen the heart of man." Have you ever taken communion with real wine? The difference in the symbolism is immediately obvious.


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## Philip (May 20, 2011)

fishingpipe said:


> I also believe the Westminster Confession is clear on it, as well, especially in terms of describing the sign and the thing signified.



Given that pasteurization is a modern technique in relation to the 17th Century . . .

I think I agree with Lance here that the alcohol content is a circumstance, not an element.



austinww said:


> Have you ever taken communion with real wine? The difference in the symbolism is immediately obvious.



Austin, I'm as sympathetic to the aesthetic argument as you are. But the fact is that for many, the association is not with joy, but sorrow. I remember one friend telling me (after he had accidentally picked up the wrong cup at communion) "all I could think of was the lives ruined in my family." And quite frankly, some of the most joyous times that I've celebrated communion have involved grape juice.

Another reason: the church meets in a school which prohibits alcohol on its grounds. Many churches (including my home church) do not have property of their own and have to meet elsewhere, usually in a public school, which in all cases would prohibit the presence of alcohol.


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## au5t1n (May 20, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> And quite frankly, some of the most joyous times that I've celebrated communion have involved grape juice.



Some of the most joyous times I've praised God have involved rock bands at youth conferences. I look back and am thankful that God allowed me to receive benefit from imperfect circumstances. That doesn't mean I can't grow and learn. Now I am appalled at the idea of using rock bands in corporate worship, but God blessed me and I benefited anyway. He does that.



P. F. Pugh said:


> Another reason: the church meets in a school which prohibits alcohol on its grounds. Many churches (including my home church) do not have property of their own and have to meet elsewhere, usually in a public school, which in all cases would prohibit the presence of alcohol.



My church is in the same situation. This is purely a pragmatic argument. It's equivalent to the Amazon tribe argument I mentioned earlier.


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## Peairtach (May 20, 2011)

There's no excuse for not using alcoholic wine. 

But those who are ex-alcoholics can be offered something else.


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## fishingpipe (May 20, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Another reason: the church meets in a school which prohibits alcohol on its grounds. Many churches (including my home church) do not have property of their own and have to meet elsewhere, usually in a public school, which in all cases would prohibit the presence of alcohol.




We meet in a public school gym. Has the school specifically forbidden the church from using wine? It shouldn't be a problem in any public school in the US in light of the first amendment and religious practice. Especially seeing there are no school kids there on Sundays.


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## nwink (May 20, 2011)

Ok, so a dumb question. By God's grace, I've never been an alcoholic, so I do not know what it's like to experience Christian life after a sin like this. When Christians talk about alcohol (such as in communion), they usually assume that just a little sip of alcohol to an alcoholic would be the "straw that breaks the camel's back". (I mean, there's also the case of previous alcoholics not drinking alcohol for conscience's sake, but that's not my question) I can see how someone who smokes would have a hard time smoking a little after they've quit, but is it the same way with alcoholics? (Maybe they get that taste they used to love so much?) Is alcohol an addictive substance in-and-of-itself, or does being an alcoholic moreso involve depression and drinking too much to drown out life and sorrows or to party-it-up? I mean, in terms of the amount of alcohol, communion is a little sip...not having a few beers with some non-Christian buddies.


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## Gage Browning (May 20, 2011)

I've heard several good ones...
1. Just because "oinos" always means fermented wine in the new testament...we should not be conformed to this world.
2. Wine leads to drinking other things like hard liquor, which is obviously a sin.
3. Welch's is better because the guy who started Welch's was a Christian, and Non-Christians own liquor stores, so we shouldn't support them.


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## Philip (May 20, 2011)

nwink said:


> Is alcohol an addictive substance in-and-of-itself, or does being an alcoholic moreso involve depression and drinking too much to drown out life and sorrows or to party-it-up?



Alcoholism is usually classified as an addiction.


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## Whitefield (May 20, 2011)

KMK said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > austinww said:
> ...


 
This is true. Seems we keep returning to the same subjects. I'll keep using grape juice and others can use wine, and we'll all get together and discuss it later in heaven.


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## kodos (May 20, 2011)

Please keep women out of the worship service. I have a lust issue.

Sincerely,
Average Christian Male


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