# Accredited vs. Non-Accredited schools...



## Exiled_2_God (Jul 24, 2009)

Can someone with an unaccredited theology degree do the same as one with an accredited degree, in the sense of churches hiring (I'm not talking spiritually here). Do most churches (I know, subjective) look for accredited degrees to fill ministry positions? 

Obviously, most businesses that require a degree require one from an accredited institution (regionally accredited, recognized by the Dept. of Education). Is this the same within most churches?


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## Jimmy the Greek (Jul 24, 2009)

I don't think you will find a blanket answer. I would say it depends on the church, church leadership, and denominational affiliation.

I can't speak about flexibility among the Presbyterians, but Baptist and Bible churches are completely independant, so you will find all sorts in those.


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## cbryant (Jul 24, 2009)

Derek,

To piggy-back on Jim's answer it will depend on which Presbyterian denomination, Presbytery and session of the church seeking to fill the opening. Since I am currently in the PCA I can only speak intelligently to what they require. In the BCO the requirement is just (if I remember correctly) complete of a prescribe course of study (read a degree), which typically will mean an M.Div (or B.D. if coming from a British commonwealth country or Europe) or better, though I have seen cases where an M.A. or an M.A.R. was sufficient. As far as accreditation goes it will depend on the presbytery/session and what ministry you will be in. If you are seeking to be a military chaplain then (I think, the chaplains on the board may correct me if they like) your degree must be from an accrediting body recognized by the United States Department of Education. Leadership and Ministry Preparation LAMP is not accredited by the US dept of ed but is recognized/ran by the PCA.

I hope this clears up the waters some.


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## Exiled_2_God (Jul 24, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> I don't think you will find a blanket answer. I would say it depends on the church, church leadership, and denominational affiliation.
> 
> I can't speak about flexibility among the Presbyterians, but Baptist and Bible churches are completely independant, so you will find all sorts in those.



Makes sense. I would say that one can't go wrong with an accredited degree, but then the issue of denomination affiliation and all that comes into play.

-----Added 7/24/2009 at 12:38:38 EST-----



cbryant said:


> Derek,
> 
> To piggy-back on Jim's answer it will depend on which Presbyterian denomination, Presbytery and session of the church seeking to fill the opening. Since I am currently in the PCA I can only speak intelligently to what they require. In the BCO the requirement is just (if I remember correctly) complete of a prescribe course of study (read a degree), which typically will mean an M.Div (or B.D. if coming from a British commonwealth country or Europe) or better, though I have seen cases where an M.A. or an M.A.R. was sufficient. As far as accreditation goes it will depend on the presbytery/session and what ministry you will be in. If you are seeking to be a military chaplain then (I think, the chaplains on the board may correct me if they like) your degree must be from an accrediting body recognized by the United States Department of Education. Leadership and Ministry Preparation LAMP is not accredited by the US dept of ed but is recognized/ran by the PCA.
> 
> I hope this clears up the waters some.



Good info. I'm not part of the PCA, but it seems that one should see which avenue they want to get into before they pursue said degree.


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## larryjf (Jul 24, 2009)

I can also speak only from a PCA standpoint.

Ordination as a Teaching Elder is done at the Presbytery level. Therefore, if the Presbytery accepts the education that's all that matters.

There are even exceptions where the PCA can ordain a TE without formal education...but i've never seen that happen in actual practice. I would imagine it would be very much a rarity.

As far as the chaplaincy, i wouldn't fee comfortable serving where the following is one of the requirements...

"Sensitive to religious pluralism"
(taken from GoArmy.com > Army Chaplain Corps > Requirements)


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## Exiled_2_God (Jul 24, 2009)

larryjf said:


> I can also speak only from a PCA standpoint.
> 
> Ordination as a Teaching Elder is done at the Presbytery level. Therefore, if the Presbytery accepts the education that's all that matters.
> 
> ...



gotchya... any thoughts from the Reformed Baptist spectrum?

"Sensitive to religious pluralism" - *OUCH!* - tough mission field.


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## DMcFadden (Jul 24, 2009)

Derek,

Your question is simple and straight-forward. Unfortunately the answer cannot be.

1. What do you mean by unaccredited? A great school that is only a site visit away from receiving approval for accreditation? A school with a superior track record for training ministers, yet unwilling to jump through accreditation hoops? A cheesy diploma mill that exists to bilk people? A structured program of continuing education that meets the need admirably, but will never seek or receive accreditation for any number of reasons? An ARTS accredited school that is not recognized by the U.S. Department of Education?

2. What do you want to "do" with your degree? Serve on the staff of a larger congregation? Be a solo pastor of a small bivocational church? Teach at a Reformed seminary? Teach at a secular university? How much (if any) hindrance will depend on what you intend to do with the program.

In general, you should eschew any program that is not regionally accredited and a member of the ATS IFF you seek to teach in higher education. Can an exceptional person get "around" the requirement? Sure, consider James White's work as an adjunct. However, you would be much better to have Dr. Clark's pedigree rather than Dr. White's if teaching is your goal.

I would recommend that every person receive the best education possible. That is generally (but not always) most likely to be available from an accredited school. In the area of ministry preparation, however, I would rather have a graduate of GPTS or PRTS than any number of prestige schools.


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## Marrow Man (Jul 24, 2009)

I have been a member of two different presbyteries in the ARP, and each presbytery has a list of approved seminaries. Most are accredited, but at least at least one of the presbyteries also accepts Greenville Seminary. Also, it is possible to attend a seminary that is not on the list, but then the presbytery would consider these on a "case by case" basis.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 24, 2009)

Is Pittsburgh on that listen MM?


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## Marrow Man (Jul 24, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Is Pittsburgh on that listen MM?



Ha! Not a chance!

Seriously, these are the ones I remember:

RTS (all campi)
Erskine
Westminster (both campi)
Mid-America Reformed Seminary
Southern Baptist Seminary
Greenville Seminary
Covenant Seminary
Knox Seminary


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## Curt (Jul 24, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Is Pittsburgh on that listen MM?
> ...



So would Gordon-Conwell grads be locked out?


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## matt01 (Jul 24, 2009)

Exiled_2_God said:


> gotchya... any thoughts from the Reformed Baptist spectrum?



It all depends on who you ask. I am for accredited (Dept of Education recognized, rather than the groups that accredit themselves...) institutions, as it is a way for the world to know that you have reached a certain academic level. It isn't saying you are qualified to preach, but that your education has met a certain standard.

There are Reformed Baptists who support the non-accredited schools. A former pastor teaches here, though the majority of the faculty has degrees from an accredited school. It is good for those who desire to be raised up for the ministry, while continuing to labor in the local church.

It comes down to what you are hoping to do, and what those in power are accepting of.


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## Kevin (Jul 24, 2009)

Exiled_2_God said:


> Can someone with an unaccredited theology degree do the same as one with an accredited degree, in the sense of churches hiring (I'm not talking spiritually here). Do most churches (I know, subjective) look for accredited degrees to fill ministry positions?
> 
> Obviously, most businesses that require a degree require one from an accredited institution (regionally accredited, recognized by the Dept. of Education). Is this the same within most churches?



NO.

In some places a person with an unacredited "degree" may be guilty of criminal fraud for claiming to have a "degree" that they do not have.


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## Wannabee (Jul 24, 2009)

Dennis posted some good thoughts. What do you want to do? Your education should be built around that. If you desire to be a pastor then your boot camp is serving faithfully in your local church. If you're not already doing that then stop and evaluate your priorities. Faithful service is an indispensable foundational training. Unfortunately many young men attempt to bypass this to go on to "greater" things through academia. Don't try to shortcut this invaluable training. Then, if you want to be a pastor, search for the school that's going to give you the best training to be a pastor - not one that will teach you a bazzillion things about contemporary religiousity and church programs to help you _do _ministry better. Search for one that focuses on pastoral/shepherding ministry, counseling, languages, exegesis, hermeneutics and exposition. Then you must continue your in church training while receiving the education. Failure to do so can and usually does reprogram the brain in a more academic and didactic framework. Some of this can be helpful, but not to the detriment of personal relations, tenderness of heart and passion for God's Word, church/people and the lost.
If you prefer to be a teacher, then consider what you want to teach. If you want anything to do with teaching pastors then you shouldn't pursue your own accreditation without serving in the role of pastor yourself, even if on a lay level. It WILL affect your ability to teach. And often modeling what pastors are to be in your relations with the students is as much or more of an education than the academic training they receive. Such professors stand out in my mind as invaluable. Of course, if you desire to go this route then accreditation is probably necessary, unless you're of the caliber that can persuade a school that you would be an asset to them without the credentials - an uphill battle.

My two cents...


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## Marrow Man (Jul 25, 2009)

Curt said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...



Those were the only ones I remember. I don't remember GC being on the list, but read too much into that (and it might just be my memory). It might be simply the fact that we don't exactly get a lot of GCTS grads; that might change with the campus in Charlotte, however.

No one is necessarily "locked out." There is a list of approved schools, but if someone graduated from a different seminary, they would still be examined and considered. Benjamin, for example, graduated from Pittsburgh Seminary, but his presbytery is satisfied with his credentials, and he will probably be licensed (and hopefully have a call!) in the very near future.


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## N. Eshelman (Jul 25, 2009)

In the RPCNA there is an understanding that RPTS in Pittsburgh will train all of the pastors. According to our Constitution, It is HIGHLY recommended that students who go to another institution take one year of studies at RPTS. 

Some who have not done this have had difficulty getting calls within the RP Church. (Now, I went to Puritan Reformed, but did not have the difficulties that some have had). 

All that to say- to most denominations, it MATTERS where you went to seminary.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2009)

nleshelman said:


> In the RPCNA there is an understanding that RPTS in Pittsburgh will train all of the pastors. According to our Constitution, It is HIGHLY recommended that students who go to another institution take one year of studies at RPTS.
> 
> Some who have not done this have had difficulty getting calls within the RP Church. (Now, I went to Puritan Reformed, but did not have the difficulties that some have had).
> 
> All that to say- to most denominations, it MATTERS where you went to seminary.



Tell me about it. When I was still under care of my PC(USA) presbytery (West Virginia Presbytery) I had wanted to go to Westminster East because of its academic reputation (I was completely ignorant about what Reformed theology was at the time, boy would I have been in for a shock). My Presbytery CPM wanted me to go to Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (because they thought I needed to see "a different viewpoint") so Pittsburgh Theological Seminary was actually a compromise between us. 

I do not want to get  so I am going to start a new thread.


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## chaplee (Jul 25, 2009)

*ccredikted Schools*

Derek: You've been given some good advice in this thread. If you're thinking military or other Federal chaplainciecs, here's a link of the Assoc of Theological School (ATS) member schools which is the list the Department of Defense uses to approve military and federal prison/hospital chaplains: The Association of Theological Schools

There are other schools the military will approve (like Greenville), but they're not many. 

Doug Lee
Exec Director, Pres & Reformed Joint Commission (PRJC)
MNA: Chaplain Ministries


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## Exiled_2_God (Jul 25, 2009)

Hey everybody, thanks for the comments...

I'm not PCA, nor am I on the verge of starting a church or looking into church ministry (other than what I can do and will do in the church I currently attend). Though I am a Marine veteran I am not looking into any type of chaplaincy program either. 

What I do have, academically, is an UG in Business Finance as well as an MBA - both from an accredited institution. Now I'm looking to get trained in the Seminary for future options - not to mention I love to study. Unfortunately I can't say I am led to do X, Y, or Z. I wish it were that easy. Whether I will be a teacher some day, a pastor, or a lay leader I don't know. I am up for anything the Lord sends my way or directs me to pursue.


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