# Mark 5 the activity of Demons and Cotton Mather



## Eoghan (Oct 8, 2009)

I was looking for sermons over in sermonaudio and came across Cotton Mather's description of demonic activity in New England. What are we to make of such stories?


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## BobVigneault (Oct 8, 2009)

I read Cotton Mather's descriptions and what surprised me was that he didn't offer any methods for dealing with demonic attack, he simply wrote about them as an observer. He described what he saw and heard, he tried some experiments and described the result. It was very fascinating reading.


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## louis_jp (Oct 8, 2009)

Wasn't Cotton Mather involved in the Salem witch trials?


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## Eoghan (Oct 10, 2009)

*Marvel Comics and Cotton Mather*

I was surpised to find Cotton Mather as a super-villain

Mather, Cotton - Marvel Universe: The definitive online source for Marvel super hero bios.

Cotton Mather was born sometime in the 17th century. At some stage in his life he came into contact with the Dark Rider, a powerful magus that hailed from a pre-historic era. The Dark Rider allowed Mather to serve him and sent him to seek out those with the power of witchcraft and return them to him so that he could drain their powers. Mather started his mission in earnest and arrived in Salem, Massachusetts in 1691. By that stage people were already been publicly hanged for supposedly practicing witchcraft. Mather increased the people's fear in the off chance that he would find him a real witch to bring back to the Dark Rider. With the help of his master, Mather traveled to the future to the present day. He used his powers to project his voice and summon the Scarlet Witch to come to him. Unable to control her actions, the Scarlet Witch stole an Avengers Quinjet and followed the voice, much to the Vision's concern. She followed the voice all the way to Doctor Doom's castle in Latveria, which was believed to be abandoned at the time. However there was a light on in one of the rooms and when the Scarlet Witch entered she was attacked by Cotton Mather. Mather, somehow, overcame Wanda's hexsphere and knocked the Avenger unconscious. Unknown to Mather, Wanda's hexsphere had actually managed to curl it way westward to New York where it managed to find Spider-Man. It transported him to Latveria to the very spot where Wanda lay unconscious. Realizing the danger that she was in, _*Spider-Man attacked Mather *_but Mather fended off his attack by using the "purifying fire" that emerged from his wooden cross. He then used his cross to control the Scarlet Witch and used her to attack Spider-Man. Wanda summoned a hex-bolt to cause the ceiling to cave-in on Spider-Man, knocking him unconscious.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 20, 2009)

> All right, I have grown used to Cotton Mather being abused by liberal historians, but... Cotton Mather as a Marvel comic book villain? I don't even know how to respond to that. No, wait, I do: hang the witches, hang them all!



Hang them? Hm. 

[video=youtube;zrzMhU_4m-g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g[/video]


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

Eoghan said:


> I was looking for sermons over in sermonaudio and came across Cotton Mather's description of demonic activity in New England. What are we to make of such stories?



I don't believe the Mathers would have had the insights to examine these events as psychosomatic phenomena.


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

> True, though I wouldn't dismiss everything that they say; some of it, I believe, could go either way as either psychosomatic or supernaturally induced.



Would you be willing to submit an example of the latter for analysis?


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

Eoghan said:


> I was looking for sermons over in sermonaudio and came across Cotton Mather's description of demonic activity in New England. What are we to make of such stories?



A Christian's account of demonic activity. Generally, demons thrive where idolatry has had strongholds. For example, modern day demonic activity is most prevalent where paganism has deep roots (Africa, India, and increasingly in Western Metropolises). Much of what we label with medical terms were once (more realistically) labeled as spiritual maladies. The Americas were filled with idolatry prior to their settlement by the Reformed (sadly, the Spaniards did less to counteract demonic activity due to their replacement idols).

For example, I have friends who are missionaries in the Congo, and have seen wizards flying through the air. No joke. Of course, demonic activity is prolific in the Congo due to the prevalance of idolatry.

When the light of the Gospel of Christ overtakes a land, demonic activity wanes, and eventually is eradicated.

Cheers,


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

> There is a long and (often) monotonous account of it in his pamphlet _Lithoblia_ here: LITHOBOLIA



Here is an extract; the available choices demonstrate the naivete of the conclusion that this was extraordinary:



> Whilst we stood amazed at this Accident, one of the Maidens imagined she saw them come from the Hall, next to that we were in, where searching, (and in the Cellar, down out of the Hall,) and *finding no Body*, another and my self observed two little Stones in a short space successively to fall on the Floor, coming as from the Ceiling close by us, and *we concluded it must necessarily be done by means extraordinary and praeternatural*.


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## Grillsy (Oct 20, 2009)

Interesting stuff, I will have to check it out. I do lean toward the skeptical side of things. But at the same time I do not want to write everything off as simply psychosomatic considering that we are always very upset with prevailing naturalistic science here it wouldn't be fair to judge all stories dealing with possibly supernatural elements as something that natural science can explain away. If we do so we will be forced to do the same with biology and geology and judge from a purely naturalistic perspective.


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> If we do so we will be forced to do the same with biology and geology and judge from a purely naturalistic perspective.



Another option is that the Scriptures require us to look at such phenomena from the perspective of all principality and power being made subject to the God-man, Colossians 2:9, 10.


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## Grillsy (Oct 20, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > If we do so we will be forced to do the same with biology and geology and judge from a purely naturalistic perspective.
> ...



Point taken. A very good point at that.

So to what extent do you think there are demonic forces active at this present time? Do you hold to a complete cessation of all angelic/demonic activity?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 20, 2009)

I believe there is much our finite and fallen human consciences cannot understand or handle. 2 Kings 6:17.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I believe there is much our finite and fallen human consciences cannot understand or handle. 2 Kings 6:17.



Were you trying to be esoteric by not putting the passage in there?!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah I did forget it but added it later ...


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> So to what extent do you think there are demonic forces active at this present time? Do you hold to a complete cessation of all angelic/demonic activity?



I don't think there is any cessation or even abatement of said activity. The problem is with the interpretation that angels and demons act independently of human psychological factors. The tendency to set up demigods in this fashion is the very error the apostle counteracts in Colossians 2, which he calls "a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels." It fails to account for the fact that the magnifying of supernatural forces is in itself a devilish deception by which men's actions are influenced by lords other than Christ.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> The problem is with the interpretation that angels and demons act independently of human psychological factors.



I think I'm probably misunderstanding your statement above, so I wanted to ask for clarification. You seem to be saying that demons do not act independently. How would you describe a demon acting independently?

Thanks!


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> I think I'm probably misunderstanding your statement above, so I wanted to ask for clarification. You seem to be saying that demons do not act independently. How would you describe a demon acting independently?



In the world of phenomena as observed by humans, as the context of the discussion indicates. Obviously they act independently in their own sphere which is beyond human observation and interpretation, but that is not the sphere under discussion.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'm probably misunderstanding your statement above, so I wanted to ask for clarification. You seem to be saying that demons do not act independently. How would you describe a demon acting independently?
> ...



What would you think of the descriptions of demonic activity given both by the inspired writers, as well as through the accounts given by others, and recorded by the inspired writers? For example, the father of the demoniac who describes the demonic activity and insuperable strength of his son, or the description of the legion exiting one man and entering into the swine, etc.

How would you categorize such phenomena?

Cheers,


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## MW (Oct 20, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> What would you think of the descriptions of demonic activity given both by the inspired writers, as well as through the accounts given by others, and recorded by the inspired writers? For example, the father of the demoniac who describes the demonic activity and insuperable strength of his son, or the description of the legion exiting one man and entering into the swine, etc.



There are three levels to the narratives. The first level is the natural understanding of the characters involved. On this level we can allow for a non Christian evaluation and deifying of spirits. The second level is the act of sovereign eviction by Christ in which His Lordship is clearly demonstrated in anticipation of His ultimate triumph over them in the cross. What He effects in these miracles is indicative of the power He now exercises over them. The third level is that of the inspired narrator, who no doubt writes with the purpose of showing the authority of Christ and the falsehood of ascribing divine power to evil spirits. On this level we cannot allow for any mistaken ideas, but must also see the manifestation of evil spirits to be specifically designed to demonstrate their vanity in the light of Christ's power and truth.


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## Grillsy (Oct 22, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> > So to what extent do you think there are demonic forces active at this present time? Do you hold to a complete cessation of all angelic/demonic activity?
> ...



Aye sir. Once again, I am impressed. As i've said before, if I could, i'd move to Australia. 
So if I am following you're argument correctly, you are saying that we set up demigods by ascribing a power to demons that they do not possess? And also that demons use the already present psychological factors of individual humans to their advantage?


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## MW (Oct 23, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Aye sir. Once again, I am impressed. As i've said before, if I could, i'd move to Australia.
> So if I am following you're argument correctly, you are saying that we set up demigods by ascribing a power to demons that they do not possess? And also that demons use the already present psychological factors of individual humans to their advantage?



Our's is a beautiful country physically, but it is a war torn country so far as the spiritual battle is concerned.

Yes, that is my argument, and I believe it is part of what Paul is addressing in Colossians 2.


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