# Arminian mindset of God's grace.



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Dec 24, 2004)

*Arminian mindset of God\'s grace.*

I guess the Arminians believe that we were in Jail and God pardoned us by giving us a way out. Or that we were drowning and God threw out a rope. In both analogies most people wouldn't think about the freedom they had to reject it because they would be so happy that they were given an opertunity to get away from wrath. God didn't have to offer the oppertunity, but out of grace he did. This is the arminian mindset. 



[Edited on 24-12-2004 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## fredtgreco (Dec 24, 2004)

The Arminian mindset is that everyone died in Adam, but then God chose to make everybody just a little bit alive - but REALLY sick - and then man has an independent and sovereign choice whether to take the medicine to stay alive.

The Biblical position is that man is dead in his trespasses and sins, and God sovereignly chooses to give the elect sinner life, at which point he rushes inevitably to the water of life.

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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Dec 24, 2004)

See, as simple as it sounds I can't seem to convince my arminian family. (lol, which are going to bombard me here in a few hours) I have my defense prepared... I've already been called, a "Calvin follower" rather than a "Jesus follower", a "heretic", "believing in an unloving Jesus", and part of a "cult" I've never been so frusterated.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> See, as simple as it sounds I can't seem to convince my arminian family. (lol, which are going to bombard me here in a few hours) I have my defense prepared... I've already been called, a "Calvin follower" rather than a "Jesus follower", a "heretic", "believing in an unloving Jesus", and part of a "cult" I've never been so frusterated.



Tim,

I would stay with:

"it's not about me. I'm not important. It is all about God."

Here is a good question to put: "if everyone has the ability to choose God in and of himself, doesn't that make the one who makes the right choice (to choose God) smarter or better in and of himself? Is that what the Bible teaches?"

So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Rom. 9:16)

For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? (1 Cor. 4:17)

Here is another good question:
"Can we honestly say that the Arab in Cairo, whose entire family is Muslim, and would kill him for converting, and who lives in a society where no Bibles are, and where the constant honking of horns drives one crazy (no traffic lights), has the same ability to choose Christ as an American? If not, how did that difference come about? How can the man be responsible for where he was born? If God is repsonsible, isn't that the same thing as Calvinism?"

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## Me Died Blue (Dec 24, 2004)

I can totally relate to that, Tim. To put the "cult" accusation in its place, I highly recommend you direct them to Loraine Boettner's chapter on "Calvinism in History," which shows that it has always been the historical position of the orthodox churches. It can be found here. Regardless of whether or not they ever personally agree with Calvinism, I can guarantee you the "cult" accusations will stop if they objectively and honestly read that.

I would also recommend Packer's primer, which is the absolute best brief description I have ever seen of the "meat" and true nature and significance of Calvinism as a doctrine. It can be found here.

And it's always invaluable to simply point people to the Scriptures. I compiled a list of especially relevant ones here.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 24, 2004)

More than anything else, I recommend a humble, quiet conversation that asks honest questions. The easiest way to not be listened to in this context is to seem smarter, prouder, and to "assign reading" that will "answer all the questions."

Go to the Scriptures. And don't just go to proof texts or expected Scriptures, like Romans 9. Take them to Elisha and the Shunamite. Ask why it was, when the Bible says that there were a great many widows in Israel, that God sent Elisha to the Shunamite. Go to Noah, and ask why God spared him *and his sons.* Ask how Abraham got to know God, then point them to Joshua 24:2, which says that Abraham grew up in a house of idolaters. Did Abraham choose God?

Above all, be humble, persistent and work incrementally. Too many people believe that thye can win over Arminians with unassailable logic and force of arms (so to speak). Remember that God uses the foolish things of the world, and that the humble draw nigh to Him.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> More than anything else, I recommend a humble, quiet conversation that asks honest questions. The easiest way to not be listened to in this context is to seem smarter, prouder, and to "assign reading" that will "answer all the questions."
> 
> Go to the Scriptures. And don't just go to proof texts or expected Scriptures, like Romans 9. Take them to Elisha and the Shunamite. Ask why it was, when the Bible says that there were a great many widows in Israel, that God sent Elisha to the Shunamite. Go to Noah, and ask why God spared him *and his sons.* Ask how Abraham got to know God, then point them to Joshua 24:2, which says that Abraham grew up in a house of idolaters. Did Abraham choose God?
> ...





It would be easy to respond to the charge that you are a 'Calvin follower' by retorting that they are 'Arminus followers.' However, we must not only testify of God's grace through our intellectual defense of the Reformed Biblical Faith, but also in our manner of conversation. Humility is key. Stand on the Word of God, and faithfully, humbly speak its truth as God gives you opportunity. Pray for them. Speak the truth in love. God's Word will accomplish all His will. The Arminian may feel a burden to go out and witness non-stop to everyone around them or else they may perish; but the Calvinist can rest in the providence of God, not shirking our duties to witness by word and deed, but acknowleding that it is the Lord who opens the heart, as he did for Lydia, and that often this takes time, and conversion or understanding comes not from the messenger's masterfully persuasive oration or 'evidence that demands a verdict' but rather from the Sender. May God's grace be with you and with them.


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 25, 2004)

With works such as Packer's, don't simply direct them to it and afterwards say, "See what I mean now?" Rather, read the piece together, mutually discussing it and using it as an opportunity to raise healthy conversation on various points related to the issue, as it brings them up.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 25, 2004)

to what has been said so far. Also, remember that it takes tiem, often a lot of time, for people to work their way out of Arminianism, especially if their at all tied to charasmatic influences in their conversion, myself being an example in point. For someone like that, who not only has believed arminianism for so long (though they don't know it by that name) but also because of the intense emotional experiences tied to the doctrines they hold, it is a tremendous feat for them to reject everything they have considered sacred for so long. For me, the transition was about 2 years from the introduction to reformed thought until I became a flaming calvinist. And that involved not only intense Bible study, but also church history, realizing how recent the innovations of modern evangelicalism really are. For others, it could take alot longer, especially if Arminianism is all they've ever known.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> Go to the Scriptures. And don't just go to proof texts or expected Scriptures, like Romans 9. Take them to Elisha and the Shunamite. Ask why it was, when the Bible says that there were a great many widows in Israel, that God sent Elisha to the Shunamite. Go to Noah, and ask why God spared him *and his sons.* Ask how Abraham got to know God, then point them to Joshua 24:2, which says that Abraham grew up in a house of idolaters. Did Abraham choose God?



That is a good point Fred, one that I usually don't think about. I thought (and have done this actually) that memorizing Romans 9 would be a devastating debate tactic. I had seen baptized humanists mock my God (and me with respect to election) and I responded with God's hammer (Romans 9). However, (educated) Arminians have heard this over and over again. On the other hand, that example you used with Elisha is great--it shows God's free choice. The Noah one is good as well--it shows God's covenantal mercy. 

Thanks

[Edited on 12--25-04 by Draught Horse]


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## fredtgreco (Dec 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



You're welcome. After all, the Bible is full of incidents showing God's sovereignty, since He is, after all, sovereign!


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