# A question of regeneration regarding Mark 4:11-12



## no1special18 (Nov 8, 2004)

I first encountered this question on an anti-calvinist sight. At first I did not pay much attention to it, because it poses more of a problem to the one asking it (if he is arminian) then it did to Calvinist, howerver, I am curious as to what is the best way to answer it from the reformed perspective (obviously)?

Here it is. If man is totally depraved as defined by Calvinists (and I like to add the Bible to that), why in Mark 4:12 did Jesus indicate that if they had been given a clear message, instead of parables, they would have returned and been forgiven?

Like I said I did not bother with this because it posses a huge to problem to the Armenian's interpratation of "God desires all to be saved...." Still, I was thinking that maybe the Calvinist should answer this after all. Should we just assume that God would have regenerated their hearts had they heard the Gospel, and leave it at that, or is there an answer that gives more of an explanation?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Nov 8, 2004)

Mark 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

It is my opinion that Christ was actually being merciful to Israel here in that they were given the parables to protect them from further condemnation.

As far as them returning if they had been given a clear message is true. If the curse of spiritual blindness had not befell them, the message would have been crystal clear and the elect of God would have in fact been brought into the kingdom by the decree of God.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 8, 2004)

JB,
The Arminian's problem only exists upon his own assumptions, not on the Calvinist's. A "clouded" message no more implies a person's innate ability in himself to respond positively to the Word, than a "clear" message means he would invariably respond well. Jesus' veiled teachings were themselves a response to the exhibited unbelief in response to his earlier teaching that was non-parabolic. "To him who has not, even what he has will be taken away from him." The Arminian assumes (and assumes the text teaches) that if Jesus' message was clearer then the listeners would have "got it," and been saved. Hence the typical Arminian reliance on a bare-bones gospel presentation (monotonously repetetive, reductionistic) and on "effective" selling techniques--because its all up to them!

We believe God works by means, ordinary means, by which the Spirit works supernaturally, and especially _sovereignly._ Hearing the good news is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege is regularly abused by people who hear the plainest gospel presentations and reject them. And furthermore, being given "ears to hear" is a necessary gift to make the Word understood in the heart. The surface meaning of the text seems to imply (by the term "lest"="for fear that") God was afraid that if the people got a clearer message, they would turn from their wicked ways. Well, God isn't afraid of anything. And he certainly isn't one to miss his aim either in saving or damning.

Jesus' words are insperable from both the context of the parable by which he is speaking, and the Isaiah passage he is quoting from. The Word is simply saying that God is sovereign as to what, and how much, and to what degree he lets people hear and understand his truth. If more of his hearers had been given more grace to understand the parables, they would have been _savingly_ enabled. Instead, Jesus used the parables as a means of judgment. Additional light is withheld from them, the Spirit _and_ the Word is held back sovereignly, and the Words of Life fall on deaf ears.

What condemns them? Their natural condition of unbelief.


----------

