# Child Disciples and Baptism



## TaylorOtwell (Mar 28, 2010)

I came across this verse in John 6: "_From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him_." This verse teaches us that not all people who can properly be termed "disciples" are saved, since these disciples did not persevere with Christ. 

From my experience, Baptists (and I speak as a Baptist) are working hard to determine if someone is saved before they baptize them, but I'm wondering if this is really the determining factor of who should be baptized. The Scriptures tell us to baptize disciples. And, as the verse above indicates, disciples are not always true believers. So, as soon as a child is learning about Christ, why are they not considered disciples by Baptists? I'm having Bible stories read to them by parents, and they are praying with their parents. Perhaps they are even singing. How is this not discipleship? And if it is considered discipleship, why are they not baptized as disciples?


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Baptists are working hard to determine if someone is saved? Taylor, that may be in your experience, but it's not what I see in RB churches. There is nothing more required of a credible profession than it be credible. Has a person believed the Gospel message? Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ? Unless there is a visible contradiction to their profession we are to accept it and baptize them. Your statement rings true in describing many synergistic Baptist churches. RB churches should not be defined this way, both by belief and practice.

As far as these disciples turning away from Jesus; they fit the description of 1 John 2:19. They first had to profess before they left.


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## TaylorOtwell (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> Has a person believed the Gospel message? Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ?


 
Brother Bill, how is this not trying to determine if someone is saved? If someone believes the gospel and has repented of their sins, they are saved. 

If a child is being taught by their parents about Christ, and is even being taught to pray to Christ and sing to Christ, are they undergoing discipleship?


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Taylor,

You said:



> From my experience, Baptists (and I speak as a Baptist) are *working hard* to determine if someone is saved...



Your words paint a picture of pastors and elders laboring under extreme duress to determine whether a person is saved. We're not required to do that. We are looking for a credible profession from professors, just as paedo pastors and elders are looking for the same from a convert. I never said we're not looking for evidence of salvation. A credible profession is just that. 

As far as children go, I'm wondering whether you truly know the RB position. A child may be exposed to the Gospel from the church and his parents. If he's a disciple it's in the very loose sense of the word. 1 Cor. 2:14 tells me that the natural man (unsaved man) cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Hard to get around that statement. The Gospel that is being taught to young children is salvific in nature. Once the child comes to faith in Christ, true discipleship can begin; but not until then. But this is nothing more than the garden variety Baptist vs. Presbyterian debate. There's nothing new here.


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## rbcbob (Mar 28, 2010)

Caution is not unheard of in the New Testament.

Acts 9:26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.


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## TaylorOtwell (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> Taylor,
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...



Bill,

Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?

So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ? I'm assuming he doesn't believe his parents are deceiving him about Jesus. I understand these are garden variety Baptist/Presbyterian questions; however, I am not asking them with any other intention but to work through legitimate questions and struggles I have, as my wife is due to deliver our first child on April 17th.

---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------




rbcbob said:


> Caution is not unheard of in the New Testament.
> 
> Acts 9:26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.



Well, I can understand being afraid of someone who was murdering Christians. But, we're talking about a small child who is being taught about Christ by his parents.


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## Ne Oublie (Mar 28, 2010)

I think these are valid questions, Taylor. One of the hardest things for me, while before as a baptist, was to know when I should baptize?. I found that everyone had different answers to this, and it seemed to be a mystery, but everyone was quick to say when you should not(babies). And my questions always fell flat. It always hinged on credible, as if there was any good in man to determine credible, let alone a child. 
So, if a child were to be moral on the outside and say all the right things, then we should baptize him? And the time while being taught and shown the Gospel, they are not disciples in the real sense, because they have done nothing in and of themselves to determine that fact, or at least until the SAY they believe, which they are taught, then we can trust the fact? I was always told that it would take great discernment and prayer to know when to baptize your child and that it depended on the child and if they had shown the signs of a changed heart.

In some RB churches that I had been to, I would hear from children that they are not saved yet, and until they are, they will not be baptized. But you ask them how they know they are not saved and they would say, because they have not yet shown the fruit. Then in others there would be no fruit in the children at all, with minds completely on this world, but they would profess, and quickly be baptized. Others parents would teach their children about baptism, belief and and what repentance means, what the Gospel is, and really truly 'disciple' them, but only baptize them when they would come and ask to be baptized.(this I found most consistent), but that only depends on how old you are, because if you are 4 years old, your words are not credible. 

And I was always told that being discipled comes before baptism. So, disciple does not equate to Christian or to one being saved, or that should be baptized, it was always that you make disciples and then baptize them when they profess. So, disciple seemed always like the preNotYetQualified-Christian, the evaluation period before you decide if you want to take the job or not.


Bill-


> There is nothing more required of a credible profession than it be credible.



Define credible?



> Has a person believed the Gospel message?



How would one determine if one truly believed?



> Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ?



How would one determine who really repented and trusted Christ?

Wouldn't this take time? Is not sanctification what grows us in grace and where the fruit comes from?



> Unless there is a visible contradiction to their profession we are to accept it and baptize them.



Any examples of a visible contradiction of profession as a child?


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## rbcbob (Mar 28, 2010)

Joshua said:


> RE: Acts 9:26
> 
> Just because something happens in Scripture doesn't mean it's _appropriate_. Also, at this point, Paul was already baptized, so an allusion to this really does nothing for the argument of exercising *undue* caution before _baptizing_.



The point of the reference given was that there is a place for caution; reasonable caution, prudent caution; certainly not undue caution.


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## rbcbob (Mar 28, 2010)

Joshua said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> > Joshua said:
> ...


 
Agreed.


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## jwithnell (Mar 28, 2010)

> So, as soon as a child is learning about Christ, why are they not considered disciples by Baptists?





> Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?
> 
> So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ?



Y'all are coming up against why it is so difficult to view children as outside of the covenant until they make a profession of faith. (Please hear me out; I'm not trying to turn this into a credo v. paedo discussion.) I _am_ disciplining my babies, I am disciplining my 16-year old who has made a credible profession of faith, I am disciplining our oldest who is, with her husband, establishing a family. That responsibility is there, both for the family and the church, from the first moments of life until the end of life.

A pastor or a parent should be expecting different levels of understanding -- even if God has worked in the child's life at a very young age. I am far more delighted about my special-needs 6 year old who is excited to "learn about Jesus!" and "go to worship!" than I am about the adult who can say all the right things and maintain a hard heart. Where understanding is concern, we should be careful to delay admission to the Lord's table (or refuse admission) to someone who has not made or maintained a credible profession. That's a different matter than discipleship.


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## Marrow Man (Mar 28, 2010)

Indeed, David trusted while nursing from his mother's knee.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Robert,



> 1689 LBC 29.2
> Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.



I'm not concerned about age. Neither is the Confession. As elders we are satisfied upon an interview of the new convert that gives evidence that the individual's profession is real. How do we know it's real? We don't. How does a Presbyterian pastor or elder know that a convert has a credible profession? They don't. We are called to accept their profession that they have placed their faith in Christ. If they prove to be a false convert, that is not the minister's fault. Scripture provides a remedy to deal with those who are professors and not possessors (Matt. 18). This whole issue is a straw man argument made against Baptists.


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## Marrow Man (Mar 28, 2010)

Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

TaylorOtwell said:


> Bill,
> 
> Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?
> 
> So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ? I'm assuming he doesn't believe his parents are deceiving him about Jesus. I understand these are garden variety Baptist/Presbyterian questions; however, I am not asking them with any other intention but to work through legitimate questions and struggles I have, as my wife is due to deliver our first child on April 17th.



Evangelism is certainly being performed as we proclaim the Gospel to our children. From the Baptist perspective, how could it not be? 

As far as the scenario you provide about a 3 year old child, why are you being so narrow in your hypothetical? Did I say that a 3 year old doesn't have sufficient cognitive ability to believe? I'm not going to establish an artificial age boundary that must be achieved in order to believe the Gospel. A child should be exposed to the Gospel through church and family. As cognitive ability develops the child will increase in his ability to articulate his faith. Dispensing with the Finneysitic model, we should not be looking for a raised hand or sinners prayer to prove that a child has come to faith in Christ. There may never be a deciding moment that we can discern. The believing child may grow up with the understanding that they have always believed. I think that is a great thing, for it proves the saving power of the Gospel independent of emotionally based decisions. But Taylor, in order to be fair to both sides, the paedo parent has no guarantee that their baptized child is saved. Take away the paedo conviction that their child is a formal disciple and part of the temporal administration of the New Covenant; is there proof that their child is saved? Is anyone, child or adult, who is saved apart from faith? Wouldn't the paedo parent have the same motivation as the Baptist parent, to proclaim the Gospel to their child? 

I understand the reasons for your questions. Please forgive me if I got my spine up. I get tired of the caricature that is painted about what Baptists believe in this area; especially when that caricature comes from other Baptists.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Marrow Man said:


> Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.



I knew it! You guys have more grace than us poor Baptists. Is it okay if I eat the crumbs that fall off your table?


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## TaylorOtwell (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> Robert,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bill,

Can you give some examples of questions you as an elder would ask to discern if the individual's profession is real? Are you talking about questions like, "Do you know yourself to be a sinner?", "How are your sins forgiven?", etc. 

I guess I could be struggling with the more synergistic churches that seem to view everyone who "doesn't remember not believing in Jesus" as automatically lost. I want my child to always remember believing in Christ since his early childhood!


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## Marrow Man (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.
> ...


 
Sorry, crumbs won't do you any good. You have to be bitten by a radioactive paedobaptist.


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## rbcbob (Mar 28, 2010)

In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.


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## Ne Oublie (Mar 28, 2010)

I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed? 

if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?

What words does a child have to say to express that he has faith in Christ? 

Is faith required to be a disciple?


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

TaylorOtwell said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > Robert,
> ...



Taylor, now that is a _*great *_question!

What I will not ask is, "Do you remember a time in your life when you placed your faith in Christ?" That is a nonsensical question. Even if the person answers, "Yes" it tells me nothing about what they believe; what they confess. I ask questions such as:

Do you understand that God is holy?
Do you believe that you have sinned against a holy God and are thereby guilty for breaking God's law?
Do you believe that the result of breaking God's law is an eternity spent apart from God in eternal torment?
Do you believe that God sent His Son, born of a woman, to live a sinless and obedient life unto God, suffered on the cross to take upon Himself the sin of the world, and that by repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Christ alone, that you have forgiveness of sin? 
Are you willing to confess that you have repented of your sins, placed your faith in Christ alone, and are willing to submit to baptism as a sign of your obedience unto God?

These are some questions that I would ask of a new convert. I want to make sure that they can clearly articulate that they have believed in Christ alone. I'm not looking for a thesis, but a simple articulation of what they believe in regards to Christ and the Gospel. These questions are actually teaching moments with our children. Keach's catechism is a great way of exposing your child to the Gospel. You may never see that "Ding!" moment when your child says, "Daddy, I just asked Jesus into my heart." God may simply, but miraculously, replace their young heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezk. 36:26) and create a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). The more synergistic Baptist churches push for that decision. It's almost as if they're saying that being born again isn't possible without knowing the date and time of a decision. That is a belief that all covenantal Baptists need to put out of their mind and never, ever practice with their children.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Ne Oublie said:


> I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
> then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed?
> 
> if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?
> ...


 
Robert, well, you're a Presbyterian and a paedobaptist, so no, you wouldn't believe that faith is required to be a disciple.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.



Mmm...what warrant do you have to ask such a question dear, brother?


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## TaylorOtwell (Mar 28, 2010)

Baptist Brothers,

As I teach my child, and he asks about baptism, would it be appropriate to respond with "I still have things I would like to teach you first" if I feel he is not ready for the ordinance? I fear alienating my children from the faith by essentially making Christianity come across as something us adults do, but they as children really have no part in.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Taylor,

I understand your fear, but I don't think you need worry about it. When Bethany was small, and well before I was Reformed in doctrine, I explained to her that baptism is a sign for those that have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. I then told her (and continued to reinforce) what a Christian is based on scripture. She wanted to be baptized, but that was more because she saw it as something cool to do; but it was obvious that she did not understand the Gospel. Her answers to my questions proved that. As time went by I started to notice a character change within her. Her interest in the things of God became more her own interests and not that of her parents. When she was twelve she asked me again about baptism. This time there was no doubt in my mind that she not only understood the Gospel, but that she believed. A week later she was baptized. Each situation is different of course, but if you take the time to properly teach your children, I am confident you will not alienate them.


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## Ne Oublie (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> Ne Oublie said:
> 
> 
> > I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
> ...



If my child grows up and upon looking at his life says to me, I do not remember not having faith in Christ, I have always believed Christ is my savior.
Do I then tell him that his faith was not real until he said it with his own words and it was confirmed through an interview process in which I accepted his faith
by how he articulated his answers.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2010)

Ne Oublie said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > Ne Oublie said:
> ...



Robert, you're missing my point. Paedobaptists believe that their baptized infants become part of the visible church and members of the temporal administration of the New Covenant. The infant's faith as nothing to do with it. The child may or may not grow up to be a deeply committed Christian. It's also possible that the child may grow up to be a rank unbeliever, although I believe that is much less likely, since I believe that God does work through covenant families, just not in the same way that paedobaptists define the term. If your child grows up saying that they always remember having faith in Christ, and their life displays abundant evidence of that statement, than praise God! Why would you want to grill the child that you have raised to determine whether their profession was real? Surely you, as the parent, would be in a far better position to gauge the veracity of your grown child's profession.


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## rbcbob (Mar 28, 2010)

Herald said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> > In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.
> ...


 
An intractable view of regenerate church membership?


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## Jeremy McKeen (Mar 30, 2010)

*Make disciples ... baptizing them.*

My wife is also expecting .... and I look to Jesus' command to go and "make disciples ... baptizing them." Who? Those who you are making disciples. Can someone make a convert? All would agree that the answer is no. Only God. But we can disciple. We can teach. We can teach what Jesus has taught us to those in our care. We can answer the charge to "bring our children up in the discipline of the Lord." Eph.6:4. 

So, it seems curious to me why so many parents follow the first part of Jesus' command, "to make disciples" of their children, but not the second, to baptize their child who is being discipled. I may be missing something here,  but Taylor is hitting on an important point that is central to discipleship and the sign given to those being discipled ... that is, baptism. 

Good thread, T.


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## JoyFullMom (Mar 30, 2010)

Hi Taylor, 

Your OP addresses what we faced in our SGB church. Two of our children made professions of faith and when we left nearly two years later, they still had not been baptized. It raised many questions, both for us and our children. The delay was all centered around a concern that the children were too young (about 7 and 9) to understand, so they wanted to watch and *be sure*. It was not a good thing at the time, but both children learned ALOT about the difference between *proving to man* and just *walking in obedience* and *working out your salvation*. 

I will admit that was one catalyst to cause us to revisit covenant theology and baptism and to return to the Presbyterian church.


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## jwithnell (Mar 30, 2010)

> Paedobaptists believe that their baptized infants become part of the visible church and members of the temporal administration of the New Covenant.



Perhaps a little clarification is needed here. We baptize our babies _because_ they are part of the church by virtue of their birth. Someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the the sacraments of the church.


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## Osage Bluestem (Mar 30, 2010)

I found out this weekend that my grandpa (SBC pastor) baptized my aunt 3 times during her life because she would doubt her salvation and claim she wasn't saved before, but she believed she was saved then, and requested to be baptized for the first time again.


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## JoyFullMom (Mar 30, 2010)

DD2009 said:


> I found out this weekend that my grandpa (SBC pastor) baptized my aunt 3 times during her life because she would doubt her salvation and claim she wasn't saved before, but she believed she was saved then, and requested to be baptized for the first time again.


 
I was baptized five times spanning from about grades 4 - 12.


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## JonathanHunt (Mar 30, 2010)

JoyFullMom said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> > I found out this weekend that my grandpa (SBC pastor) baptized my aunt 3 times during her life because she would doubt her salvation and claim she wasn't saved before, but she believed she was saved then, and requested to be baptized for the first time again.
> ...


 
Insane. Simply insane. I find American 'babdist' practice so hard to understand - totally different culture I know.


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## Osage Bluestem (Mar 30, 2010)

JoyFullMom said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> > I found out this weekend that my grandpa (SBC pastor) baptized my aunt 3 times during her life because she would doubt her salvation and claim she wasn't saved before, but she believed she was saved then, and requested to be baptized for the first time again.
> ...


 
There is obviously a disconnect somewhere. How does a baptist avoid baptizing a christian many times? 

I think that Taylor's question leads into this scenario.


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## JML (Mar 31, 2010)

DD2009 said:


> How does a baptist avoid baptizing a christian many times?



By only baptizing them when they are a Christian.


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## Poimen (Apr 1, 2010)

Taylor:

It sounds like you are thinking through some of the issues that Vern Poythress raised in this article: Indifferentism and Rigorism


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## Herald (Apr 1, 2010)

JonathanHunt said:


> Insane. Simply insane. I find American 'babdist' practice so hard to understand - totally different culture I know.



Jonathan, that is not Reformed (Particular) Baptist practice. The fundies keep a bar of soap and a towel handy because they baptize so often.


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## Herald (Apr 1, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> Perhaps a little clarification is needed here. We baptize our babies because they are part of the church by virtue of their birth. Someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the the sacraments of the church.



And thus the difference on how paedos & credos view the nature
of the church & the New Covenant.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 1, 2010)

Who is considered a child of Abraham in the New Covenant and in the book of Galatians. One who has faith like Abraham. Come on. This isn't rocket science. Is there not some cognizant relationship here? Just my humble opinion.

http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/covenant-head-covenant-children-349/



> This is a major part of Chapter 2 of Alan Conner’s book Covenant Children Today. I received permission from Rich Barcellos the publisher of the book to post this in my blog for the benefit of others.
> 
> Christ and the New Covenant Family
> 
> ...


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 1, 2010)

BTW, just because someone is labeled a disciple doesn't make them covenantally inclusive. Just my humble opinion.


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## mshingler (Apr 2, 2010)

As I have been trying to take in the various arguments on both sides of the baptism issue, one thing that appears evident to me is that both sides have to agree that the children of believers are sort of a "special case". This is simple enough from the paedo view, as they see children of believers already included in the covenant. It seems to me like it's a little more complicated for us baptists and I've just been trying to think through it. I take my children to church. I teach them to sing the hymns and songs of praise. I teach them to pray to God, learn to listen to the preaching of the Word and, generally, to participate in the corporate worship. All the while, until they profess and are baptized, I must also say that they are not part of the church. In this sense, I see them as a "special category," because we don't practice adult evangelism that way. In other words, we wouldn't (at least I wouldn't) that the normal method for making disciples is that we try to get unbelievers to come and participate in the regular worship of the church in the same way we do with our children. 
All that said, I'm not really making a point. Just stating that I find this somewhat counter-intuitive. Theologically, my children are not part of the church in any sense, because, from my perspective, the new covenant only includes believers. Yet, in a practical sense, it's hard to say that they are not part of the visible church. 

Also, I have found it somewhat frustrating that at least some reformed Baptists do not want to baptize children on a simple profession of faith. In one particular instance, I know someone who's daughter (I think she was somewhere around 7 or 8) wanted to be baptized. She was interviewed by the elders of the church. They said that she was able to articulate her faith well enough, but they felt she needed to wait until she was older and had had her faith "tested" sufficiently to demonstrate it's reality. Do we do that with adult converts? Also, I've noticed that in Mark Dever's church, they advise holding off on baptism till, basically, adulthood. I thought that was really unusual.


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## JoyFullMom (Apr 3, 2010)

mshingler said:


> A
> Also, I have found it somewhat frustrating that at least some reformed Baptists do not want to baptize children on a simple profession of faith. In one particular instance, I know someone who's daughter (I think she was somewhere around 7 or 8) wanted to be baptized. She was interviewed by the elders of the church. They said that she was able to articulate her faith well enough, but they felt she needed to wait until she was older and had had her faith "tested" sufficiently to demonstrate it's reality. Do we do that with adult converts? Also, I've noticed that in Mark Dever's church, they advise holding off on baptism till, basically, adulthood. I thought that was really unusual.


 
We had this happen with two of our children in a Sovereign Grace Church.


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## Iconoclast (Apr 3, 2010)

Jeremy McKeen said:


> My wife is also expecting .... and I look to Jesus' command to go and "make disciples ... baptizing them." Who? Those who you are making disciples. Can someone make a convert? All would agree that the answer is no. Only God. But we can disciple. We can teach. We can teach what Jesus has taught us to those in our care. We can answer the charge to "bring our children up in the discipline of the Lord." Eph.6:4.
> 
> So, it seems curious to me why so many parents follow the first part of Jesus' command, "to make disciples" of their children, but not the second, to baptize their child who is being discipled. I may be missing something here,  but Taylor is hitting on an important point that is central to discipleship and the sign given to those being discipled ... that is, baptism.
> 
> Good thread, T.


 
Hello Jeremy,
So with this view, if a believer is talking with an unbelieving friend who he begins to disciple he gets him baptized in order to make him a disciple? Even if he is an unbeliever? He is not yet a convert{as God has not converted him} but mt 28 has us baptize unbelievers making them disciples? 
You did not really intend to say that did you?

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------




jwithnell said:


> > Paedobaptists believe that their baptized infants become part of the visible church and members of the temporal administration of the New Covenant.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps a little clarification is needed here. We baptize our babies _because_ they are part of the church by virtue of their birth. Someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the the sacraments of the church.


 
Some of us believe that a person is only a "part of the church" by virtue of *new birth* not physical birth, so as you say someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the ordinances of the church. That is at the heart of our views being different.


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## Herald (Apr 3, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> Perhaps a little clarification is needed here. We baptize our babies _because_ they are part of the church by virtue of their birth. Someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the the sacraments of the church.


 


iconoclast said:


> Some of us believe that a person is only a "part of the church" by virtue of *new birth* not physical birth, so as you say someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the ordinances of the church. That is at the heart of our views being different.



I'm pleased to read this because this is the _*real *_substance of the debate. There is a fundamental difference in how paedos and credos view covenantalism.


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## Iconoclast (Apr 3, 2010)

Ne Oublie said:


> I think these are valid questions, Taylor. One of the hardest things for me, while before as a baptist, was to know when I should baptize?. I found that everyone had different answers to this, and it seemed to be a mystery, but everyone was quick to say when you should not(babies). And my questions always fell flat. It always hinged on credible, as if there was any good in man to determine credible, let alone a child.
> So, if a child were to be moral on the outside and say all the right things, then we should baptize him? And the time while being taught and shown the Gospel, they are not disciples in the real sense, because they have done nothing in and of themselves to determine that fact, or at least until the SAY they believe, which they are taught, then we can trust the fact? I was always told that it would take great discernment and prayer to know when to baptize your child and that it depended on the child and if they had shown the signs of a changed heart.
> 
> In some RB churches that I had been to, I would hear from children that they are not saved yet, and until they are, they will not be baptized. But you ask them how they know they are not saved and they would say, because they have not yet shown the fruit. Then in others there would be no fruit in the children at all, with minds completely on this world, but they would profess, and quickly be baptized. Others parents would teach their children about baptism, belief and and what repentance means, what the Gospel is, and really truly 'disciple' them, but only baptize them when they would come and ask to be baptized.(this I found most consistent), but that only depends on how old you are, because if you are 4 years old, your words are not credible.
> ...


 
We could ask you the same series of questions about your pastor,or any member of your congregation; Ask this about your pastor;


> Define credible?
> 
> Has a person believed the Gospel message? How would one determine if one truly believed?
> 
> ...



In other words...can we ever know about anyone at all? We can not know if an elder is saved, or called, or gifted at all, yet we go to churches that have elders whose gifts are evaluated. We are not called upon to know the secret things of God, but we can go by someones public confession/profession of Christ.
A three year old might learn to say the name of Jesus. That is good and should be built upon,no one says not to continue to teach them. Is that child saying that because the Spirit is at work or because he loves and wants to please mommy and daddy? Should a three year old who wants to drive a car, be given the car keys and turned loose? What is the rush? Trust in God and His word to do what he has purposed to do.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 4, 2010)

"Ye Shall know them by their fruit." But we are not omniscient. I have seen tares that look like wheat till the time for a tare to look like a tare. Sometimes that only happens when God sees. Somethings die before they reach maturity. That goes for both sides of the argument.


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