# I Died and Went to Heaven!!



## The Author of my Faith

My brother whom I love seems to be drawn towards the Sensationalism that seems to be dominating much of the Pentecostal Movement. He believes these stories that are on You Tube about people who died and went to heaven, or hell and came back to tell their story.

I am from Brooklyn and I am Italian. I don't believe ANYTHING!! It is only by God's Grace I am A Christian but that goes for all of us. My point is Brooklynites are Skeptics and I am the biggest.

I have a problem with people who died and hung out with Jesus in heaven. One guy said he had a water fight with Jesus in the River of Life (I am not joking someone actually testified to that). Yet from what I see in Scripture that is not possible. The story of Lazarus and Dives teaches otherwise, or at least that is how I interpret the scripture. Abraham said when asked to send someone from the dead to warn about hell in Luke 16 "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them".

Also Paul was caught up into the third heavens and was not permitted to speak about what he saw.

I used these two scriptures to show my brother. Is there any other verse that might shed light on this. I cannot think of one off hand except for the instance of Saul and the witch of Endor. But that was a completely different scenario.

It seems that people are basing their faith on Experience apart from Scripture. Experience is real, I am not denying that, but if it does not line up with scripture I don't care how great the experience is I want no part of it.

What is the Reformed view on this? 

Steve


----------



## Jake

For a specific example, what do you guys think of Don Piper? He came to my church (non-reformed) and spoke and I have read his book. His account is believable to me.


----------



## The Author of my Faith

Jake said:


> For a specific example, what do you guys think of Don Piper? He came to my church (non-reformed) and spoke and I have read his book. His account is believable to me.



He is the Guy that my brother sent me the video about.

I will let others respond to this for I am interested to see what their opinion is as well.


----------



## historyb

Well I am not sure about all that, it seems to grandiose. I did have an NDA and there were no lights or anything of that nonsense I knew that if I God let me pass through the roof of my house my destination would be Hell, it changed me and ever since I have been on a journey to find the truth. This journey has taken me to Pentecostalism, Catholicism, and now Reformed Christianity for the time being.


----------



## Marrow Man

Tim Challies gives a review of Don Piper's book here. This is a relevant quote from the review:



> The Bible tells us about three people who were privileged to see heaven on this side of the grave. All of these men, Stephen and the Apostles Paul and John, were alive when they were given a glimpse of the wonders of heaven. Don Piper, a Baptist pastor, claims to be a fourth, though unlike the other three, he first had to die first. ... Piper’s description of heaven left me cold. I was dismayed to find that his heaven seems largely man-centered. In fact, if you were to ask your unbelieving friends and neighbors to describe heaven, they would probably create a place very much like this.


----------



## Scott1

Because this is someone simply relating an experience, their interpretation of it, what they recall happening, there is no corroboration so its not really possible to say for sure.

But you can base absolutely nothing on it as far as doctrine... or your faith. To do so, to base anything on extra-biblical "revelation" (allowing even for natural revelation), would be sin.

I would acknowledge this is what this person thinks happened, and discuss only what the Bible teaches us...



> Hebrews 9:27
> 
> 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



summarized by the confession you hold:



> Chapter XXXIII
> Of the Last Judgment
> 
> I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]
> 
> II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]
> 
> III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]





> Q. 86. What is the communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death?
> 
> The communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death is, in that their souls are then made perfect in holiness,[371] and received into the highest heavens,[372] where they behold the face of God in light and glory,[373] waiting for the full redemption of their bodies,[374] which even in death continue united to Christ,[375] and rest in their graves as in their beds,[376] till at the last day they be again united to their souls.[377] Whereas the souls of the wicked are at their death cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, and their bodies kept in their graves, as in their prisons, till the resurrection and judgment of the great day.[378]


----------



## Jesus is my friend

All points well made,however,let's consider viewing this from a different perspective and ask ourselves: WHY would we want to believe Don Piper's account and not the Biblical accounts (as were well stated here) as the Truth that they are? and,what is our motivation in our opinions about this issue?


----------



## awretchsavedbygrace

> One guy said he had a water fight with Jesus in the River of Life



Oh MAN! lol. That had me cracking up. Sorry.


Walks away*


----------



## Marrow Man

Jesus is my friend said:


> All points well made,however,let's consider viewing this from a different perspective and ask ourselves: WHY would we want to believe Don Piper's account and not the Biblical accounts (as were well stated here) as the Truth that they are? and,what is our motivation in our opinions about this issue?



Without painting too broad of a brush, there is a desire among some Christians to have a "greater experience." That is, trusting in the word of God as His special revelation almost seems "mundane," so there is this quest (as Scott Clark calls it) for a higher experience of God apart from the means of grace. The "I died and went to heaven" aspect is only one particular manifestation.


----------



## Mushroom

I remember once when I passed out after hyperventilating at the age of 11 that I saw a box of corn flakes floating through a dark starry space. What are the spiritual implications of that? I was probably hungry and it was around breakfast time.

Anybody who's had experience with hallucinogenics will know that there is nothing reliable about the human mind's visions, and usually indicates more about the person's seeing them state of mind than anything else.

BTW, people don't go on journeys seeking the truth. They jump from one foxhole to another seeking to avoid it. But God's people lose that chase. God knows all the shortcuts.


----------



## baron

I have not read Don Piper book 90 Minutes in Heaven, but I remember seeing it advertised for sale by Dr. James Kennedy at Coral Ridge. Dr. Kennedy said it was one of the best books on heaven he has read. And he even had Don Piper tell his story.

I had a pastor friend who bought the book by mistake, he got confused with John Piper and he told me he did not care for the book but did not go into any details.


----------



## Sven

I would say that near death experiences and visions of heaven and hell are on par with alien abduction stories. Human testimony is credible insofar as the person testifying is credible. Human testimony is not, however, our sure Word of Prophecy; the Word of God alone is our sure word of prophecy. There are two instances of people being caught up into heaven. Paul testifies that he was caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12), and John was given a vision of heaven in Revelation. Paul says that he heard unspeakable things "which is not lawful for man to utter." John's account of his vision of heaven is not given in distinct and clear terms, but is given in symbolic and almost esoteric terms. These two examples contradict every near death vision of heaven I have ever heard, which some of them are quite absurd in their descriptions. 

Near death experiences are no doubt quite fascinating, but they are not our rule of faith and life. These experiences are not the things on which we base our hope. The Word of God alone is our foudation for faith and life. Even if these experiences are true, we would do well to keep them far below our only standard of faith and life.


----------



## wturri78

I think a root issue here, that can be easily overlooked, is that this matter largely lies smack-dab in the middle of our presuppositions. The weight that we give to personal experience, vs. reason, vs. Scripture, vs. tradition, etc. is something that guides how we interpret all of the above--especially as they relate to each other. The Reformed apprach places Scripture and reason above experience and tradition (loosely speaking) and so would immediately find relevant passages, reason about how they would allow or preclude personal experiences of heaven, death, miracles, etc. Someone who elevates personal experience would likely interpret Scripture and supercede reason with that experience. Someone who elevates tradition may believe and accept many centuries of purported miracles and visions on the basis that they were believed and accepted by respected church fathers and leaders--and therefore interpret Scripture using reasoning that will not go against their tradition!

I think personal experience is dicey because nobody can prove or disprove it. We can give no reason to anyone else for why they should believe us, accept that we're really trustworthy and would never lie--great, but that doesn't mean we can't be self-deceived.

"90 Minutes in Heaven" kind of things seem to play more to sensationalism than anything. It's way cooler to hear about people who came back from heaven, raised the dead, or became fireproof than it is to lean "cold, dead theology." 

The comparison to alien abduction stories is completely warranted, in my most humble opinion. And experience


----------



## Montanablue

I can't really add anything from a theological perspective, but going along with Brad's comment - it is not uncommon for people who have passed out to hallucinate. (I know this from experience). I would assume that this individual merely had a hallucination of going to heaven - wouldn't be uncommon because apparently this person has spent some time thinking about the afterlife, and so its a subject that would be on their mind and that their brain might have just pulled up.


----------



## Caroline

> My brother whom I love seems to be drawn towards the Sensationalism that seems to be dominating much of the Pentecostal Movement. He believes these stories that are on You Tube about people who died and went to heaven, or hell and came back to tell their story.



Yes, these stories are a dime a dozen in Pentecostal churches (motto: We believe anyone who is holding a microphone!)

I actually collect Pentecostal myths.

I can't imagine how I have yet missed adding the I-Died-And-Went-To-Heaven myths.  Silly me. Those are some of the most common. Anybody who is anybody has been caught up to glory, right? 

Among things I have heard supposedly exist in heaven: giant rooms of body parts (eyes, ears, legs, etc) being held on standby for those that need healing on earth but haven't yet prayed through for their healing, giant nurseries where angels tend babies that died, and (in case anyone missed this one in the Bible) Jesus is bald. 

Long story short ... my take on it is that if this guy isn't a Pente, then he is definitely taking lessons from them to make a name for himself and sell some books. He may sound sincere, but so did Mike Warnke and many others who turned out to be frauds in their 'testimony'. The thing about this claim is that there is no way to prove or disprove it. This is why I-Went-To-Heaven myths are so popular--there is absolutely no way to prove someone wrong.

But he strikes me as not terribly clever. The description he gives is unconvincing. It's kinda like the picture that a child would draw of heaven, like a caricature of heaven rather than the real thing.

I'm sorry that this guy had such a terrible accident, and perhaps he is frightened at his brush with death and trying to reassure himself. But this is not an appropriate way to handle it.


----------



## CDM

> One guy said he had a water fight with Jesus in the River of Life (I am not joking someone actually testified to that).



Yeah, the guy stole it from Roberts Liardon who claimed the exact thing with the exact words on the platform next to TD Jakes at a September 1996 conference. But Liardon claims he was transported to heaven (not died) and there met Jesus face to face and that he and Jesus had a water fight in the River of Life.

Your "guy" appears to be under the same demonic influence as Liardon & Co. Pray and Fast my friend.


----------



## SemperEruditio

Contemporary Christianity puts personal experience above the inerrancy of scripture and reason. I have people tell me all the time that the Bible is limited. _There are things that I have experienced in my life that are not in the Bible and no one can tell me they are not from God._ is the nonsense I hear...but that seems to be the norm.

I experienced it or heard about someone else and so it is real and more real than anything the Bible says, seems to be the order of the day. In discussions with Sovereign Grace guys they reject that the gifts have ceased because they've had "prophecies" or "word of knowledge" come true, or someone spoke in tongues and someone else was able to interpret.

This is as much in Roman Catholicism as it is in just about any other denomination. This is the new Christianity and it makes me sick.


----------



## historyb

Sven said:


> I would say that near death experiences and visions of heaven and hell are on par with alien abduction stories. Human testimony is credible insofar as the person testifying is credible. Human testimony is not, however, our sure Word of Prophecy; the Word of God alone is our sure word of prophecy. There are two instances of people being caught up into heaven. Paul testifies that he was caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12), and John was given a vision of heaven in Revelation. Paul says that he heard unspeakable things "which is not lawful for man to utter." John's account of his vision of heaven is not given in distinct and clear terms, but is given in symbolic and almost esoteric terms. These two examples contradict every near death vision of heaven I have ever heard, which some of them are quite absurd in their descriptions.
> 
> Near death experiences are no doubt quite fascinating, but they are not our rule of faith and life. These experiences are not the things on which we base our hope. The Word of God alone is our foudation for faith and life. Even if these experiences are true, we would do well to keep them far below our only standard of faith and life.


An NDA is what started me on my Journey to find God


----------



## Mushroom

> An NDA is what started me on my Journey to find God


I guess that kinda contradicts this:


> Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


When the Chinese Christian was asked when did he find Jesus, he replied, "Me no find Jesus, Jesus find me!"


----------



## The Author of my Faith

THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR REPLIES. I pretty much have the same stance on this issue. Just like to hear what others think incase I could be Overly Judgemental.


----------



## Andres

I read Piper's book a while back and wrote my own review about it here. The biggest problems I had with the trip to heaven was that it was man-centered rather than Christ-centered. Piper has a neat testimony about his recovery from a horrible accident, but that is about all.


----------



## Rich Koster

Some people take advantage of gullible people to line their pockets.


----------



## dbh

*an alternative*

From John Wesley's Journal -
Mon. January 1, 1739. — Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield,
Hatchins, and my brother Charles, were present at our love-feast in
Fetter-Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning,
as we were continuing constant in prayer, the power of God came mightily
upon us, in so much that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell
to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and
amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice,
“We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.”

Here is a vision of heaven worth hoping for. Too bad we don't know much about this in our day. I believe the human soul cries out for some supernatural experience of God and, sad to say, He, for reasons known to Himself, seems to be permitting substitutes to abound in our day.

another voice from the past,
Once, as I rode out into the woods for my health, in 1737, having alighted from my horse in a retired place, as my manner commonly has been, to walk for divine contemplation and prayer, I had a view, that for me was extraordinary, of the glory of the Son of God, as Mediator between God and man, and his wonderful, great, full, pure and sweet grace and love, and meek and gentle condescension. This grace that appeared so calm and sweet, appeared also great above the heavens. The person of Christ appeared ineffably excellent, with an excellency great enough to swallow up all thought and conception -which continued, as near as I can judge, about an hour; which kept me the greater part of the time in a flood of tears, and weeping aloud.
I felt an ardency of soul to be, what I know not otherwise how to express, emptied and annihilated; to lie in the dust; and to be full of Christ alone; to love him with a holy and pure love; to trust in him; to live upon him; to serve and follow him; and to be perfectly sanctified and made pure, with a divine and heavenly purity. I have several other times had views very much of the same nature, and which have had the same effects. 
I have, many times, had a sense of the glory of the Third Person in the Trinity, and his office as Sanctifier; in his holy operations, communicating divine light and life to the soul. God in the communications of his Holy Spirit, has appeared as an infinite fountain of divine glory and sweetness; being full, and sufficient to fill and satisfy the soul; pouring forth itself in secret communications; like the sun in its glory, sweetly and pleasantly diffusing light and life. And I have sometimes an affecting sense of the excellency of the word of God as a word of life; as the light of life; a Sweet, excellent, life-giving word; accompanied with a thirsting after that word, that it might dwell richly in my heart. (Jonathan Edwards, Works,Vol.1, p.47).


----------

