# Race



## Civbert (Oct 17, 2007)

Living in the south, I sometimes wonder what people think about race. And racial segregation is common in our churches. Is the an elephant in the room? Has much been written about race from a contemporary souther reformed view?

What of interracial marriage? Anyone want to brave a comment on that issue?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 17, 2007)

Civbert said:


> Living in the south, I sometimes wonder what people think about race. And racial segregation is common in our churches. Is the an elephant in the room? Has much been written about race from a contemporary souther reformed view?
> 
> What of interracial marriage? Anyone want to brave a comment on that issue?



Al Mohler had a good program on this a while back. I don't think racial segregation is common in our churches. Segregation is an overt, conscious attempt to delineate structures of society along racial lines. And I actually see very few churches with *that* mentality. I think a lot of churchees that are predominantly one race, be it white or black, are that way more along cultural lines than along racial Jim Crow lines. 

There is nothing wrong with energetic, black worship. But how many Reformed people would be comfortable with that next Sunday? Think before you answer.

And would not many Black churches rightly think that how white people worship is dry and stodgy? (and in many cases they would be correct). 

Worship expressions aside, I pick churches on a host of matters, race of which never occurs.


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 17, 2007)

Dr. Piper gave an excellent sermon on interracial marriage, which can be accessed here. I especially recommend watching it in the video format, to hear and see more of the nuances in the points he makes. His poem (based on Numbers 12) he mentioned near the end of the sermon is very well-done and thought-provoking as well, even from the opening line: "My God, Moses, the girl is black!" This issue in particular was also discussed previously on the board here.

Anthony J. Carter also wrote a book entitled _On Being Black and Reformed_, which was discussed on the board here. Two other somewhat related discussions on the surrounding issues at large occurred here and here.

I think there is certainly more we in the Reformed community could do to be different from the world (and even our surrounding communities) on the issue of racial harmony, specifically in our churches, which also necessarily means on the personal level from family to family. Mind you, I certainly do _not_ want to suggest that this need be an issue of the Church reforming (or being "relevant to") the community; rather, it is about what is going on _within_ the Church, or, as it's been put before, "making the visible Church look more like Heaven." Likewise, it need not entail compromising our confessional theology or worship so as to supposedly make visitors more comfortable. Rather, it relates largely to the color-blind (and culture- and generation-) nature _of the Gospel_, and the heart issues and assumptions many of us from various cultural and generational backgrounds have come to make about the others, as well as the uncomfortable hesitance many of us from "Samaria" might have simply talking to (or worshipping with) people from "Jerusalem" (or vice-versa).

The church in which I was raised (and with which I've largely kept in-touch, through family and friends), in addition to preaching on the issue from Scripture via the pulpit, has in the past few years been focusing on building a mutual understanding from all sides through open, sometimes difficult discussion outside the worship service (e.g., in Sunday-school classes). The problem, of course, is that as an Assemblies of God church, most of its members and even Sunday-school class materials have very little familiarity with actual Protestant theology or Church history. As such, even the beauty that comes from the racial and cultural unity and understanding leaves the newly-reconciled people (including new believers) of such congregations to be grounded largely in revivalistic, pietist, Pentecostal thought and experience. I only hope we can eventually bring the same passion and openness on this issue to the confessional churches. Books like Carter's are one example of a start in that direction, and the urban-based PCA church in Nashville of which Derek Webb and his wife are members is another example.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 17, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> Civbert said:
> 
> 
> > Living in the south, I sometimes wonder what people think about race. And racial segregation is common in our churches. Is the an elephant in the room? Has much been written about race from a contemporary souther reformed view?
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Oct 17, 2007)

Slippery said:


> Spear Dane said:
> 
> 
> > Civbert said:
> ...



I work in a largely African-American environment. Many of them are involved in ministry, and a few are pursuing theology degrees at reputable seminaries. Listening to them talk, and the phrases they use, often drawn from the Bible, is both challenging and refreshing. Most of them are from a Holiness background, so there are some doctrinal issues that can't be set aside. However, I have found it very encouraging.


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## elnwood (Oct 17, 2007)

*Minorities and the Reformed Churches*

This is one of my favorite articles ever. John Frame begins, "Why are there so few African-Americans and Latinos in the PCA? Or in any Reformed church, for that matter?"

http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2003Minorities.htm


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## Pergamum (Oct 18, 2007)

Don, that's a great article. I am going to start a new thread about Frame's ordination proposal. THanks for posting that....


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## No Longer A Libertine (Oct 18, 2007)

I recollect reading an interesting book in college while attending RUF, it was written by a black gentleman who was commenting on how the Civil War caused many black Americans to leave the Reformed tradition on account that it had been the theology of many of their slave masters.

It was brought to my attention by a dear friend of mine who happens to be many shades darker than I and the lone black student who attended RUF at Baylor while I was there, he came out of a penecostal background and I must say he was one of the most insightful, delightful, intellectual human beings I've ever shared the company with. Love that man but he concurred with the author that the split between black and reformed( in America) began a century and a half ago.


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## Gloria (Oct 18, 2007)

Civbert said:


> Living in the south, I sometimes wonder what people think about race. And racial segregation is common in our churches. Is the an elephant in the room? Has much been written about race from a contemporary souther reformed view?
> 
> What of interracial marriage? Anyone want to brave a comment on that issue?



Hmmm....this is an interesting topic. I am black and I go to a PCA in southeast Georgia. So I think I may have something to contribute to this conversation.

It is an elephant, but then it isn't. I honestly believe it becomes awkward when people...let me just be real...WHITE people make it an issue by trying to "relate" or "be relevant" on my behalf. Just behave naturally. If you would say "what's up" to your white friends, don't say it to me. LOL...also, I can't stand when people call me "African American" because I feel they are only doing it because they were taught that it's the politically correct thing to do. Of course, I'm only speaking on my behalf.

Interracial marriage is fine. For a moment I thought I was going to end up in an interracial marriage because honestly, reformed black men (really people) are like...lol...wow...I think there are like 35 in the US (kidding) but still...

I don't know how some of you feel about Piper but he has some AWESOME stuff on race and ethnicity.

Okay...now I'm going to read what's already been typed...


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## Kevin (Oct 18, 2007)

Gloria, Thanks for being so open.

I pray that you desire God's best for your life. And that he gives you the desire of your heart.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 19, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> I recollect reading an interesting book in college while attending RUF, it was written by a black gentleman who was commenting on how the Civil War caused many black Americans to leave the Reformed tradition on account that it had been the theology of many of their slave masters.




In the book Preachers with Power by Douglas Kelly, he pointed out that the North didn't want the blacks to congregate with the whites in worship. So they instigated the separation of blacks and whites in the Churches. It was part of the Norths plans to cause more division and havoc in the Southern States. Banner of Truth Published it. It is a book based on looking at the lives of four stalwarts of Southern preaching in the 19th Century: Daniel Baker, John Henley Thornwell, Benjamin Morgan Palmer, and John L. Girardeau. Awesome read. 

Amazon.com: Reviews for Preachers With Power: Books: Douglas Kelly


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 19, 2007)

Gloria said:


> Hmmm....this is an interesting topic. I am black and I go to a PCA in southeast Georgia. So I think I may have something to contribute to this conversation.
> 
> It is an elephant, but then it isn't. I honestly believe it becomes awkward when people...let me just be real...WHITE people make it an issue by trying to "relate" or "be relevant" on my behalf. Just behave naturally. If you would say "what's up" to your white friends, don't say it to me. LOL...also, I can't stand when people call me "African American" because I feel they are only doing it because they were taught that it's the politically correct thing to do. Of course, I'm only speaking on my behalf.
> 
> ...



You are a beautiful breath of fresh air Gloria. BTW, that is my Mom's name. 

I attended Bible College for a very short Time. But the President of my Bible College was a wonderful Black man who married a wonderful white woman. They were also members of the Baptist Church I was a member of. He is a Calvinist also. Dr. Charles Ware is one of the most Godliest men I have had the pleasure of meeting. 

The College Link.Welcome to Crossroads Bible College

He has written some books on this topic. 
Reuniting The Family of God - by Dr. A. Charles Ware & Eugene Seals (Item: 27938) - csm

Reconciliation Rooted In Redemption and Guided by Revelation - by Dr. A. Charles Ware (Item: 28838) - csm


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## Archlute (Oct 19, 2007)

Gloria said:


> I honestly believe it becomes awkward when people...let me just be real...WHITE people make it an issue by trying to "relate" or "be relevant" on my behalf. Just behave naturally. If you would say "what's up" to your white friends, don't say it to me. LOL...also, I can't stand when people call me "African American" because I feel they are only doing it because they were taught that it's the politically correct thing to do. Of course, I'm only speaking on my behalf.



No joke. I was in an OPC service in the Pacific NW one time when a black man, with whom nobody was familiar, came in sat down in the middle of the service. The pastor,who had been preaching on one thing, launched into something like an anti-slavery apology in the middle of the message that had nothing to do with what he had been preaching upon. It was obvious that he was trying his best to preach the gospel in a sympathetic manner to this man, but boy was it awkward for everyone, that man included. I think he went out the back before anyone had a chance to speak with him. Sort of like a good intention that completely backfired.


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## Pergamum (Oct 19, 2007)

I actually heard a joke about two "Negro boys" from the pulpit of a sovereign grace church. I have also heard quite a bit of commenting about good ol' Dixie. I have since changed my allegience to an honarary Yankee!


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## Raj (Oct 19, 2007)

...and Behold we see no more anyone according to the flesh...Christ is all in all. If there ihas been some thing missing or mistake of the past, we all should work for it, to restore the unity of the body of Christ based on principles and The Truth. 
Pls go through my blog, which I recently posted, perhaps this will be related to this topic.

Good to be here in the fellowship of REFORMED PEOPLE of God.


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## Dena (Oct 19, 2007)

I am a member at a distinctly multi-cultural PCA church. its very cool. There are a large number of white people, black people, Asians, and other ethnicities (in order of percentage). Our pastor is black. We have about the same number of black elders as we do white elders. (not intentionally, just saying). we have whtie and black deacons. we have black and white interns. We try to incorporate different ethnicities traditions into the service while still making it God-glorifying and adhereing to the RPW. I really enjoy it. 


On another note, I have been to churches, PCA, mind you, wherein the members and even ELDERS have without any reservation referred to black persons, some of which they were talking about was hired help, for example, with the "N" word. I was shocked. so much so, that I thought I heard incorrectly until he said it several more times. also saying "colored" bothers me. I have heard some white people say that black people don't mind if they're referred to as "colored" any more than if someone calls them "black." I find this to be highly unlikely, but its not like I've done a poll. This issue is very tough for me. Especially in the south, a lot of these words are seen as normal, even in the church, i guess, which I dont' believe should be the case at all. But I think that people who say this truly do not see any sin in it. I didn't know if I should say something to the people who use such words. I mean, one time, i was literally in the home of an elder (NOT from the church I'm a member at, so his identiy should be concealed) and he used the "N" word repeatedly and I was like, uhhhh..... do I say something? 

Thoughts?


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## raekwon (Oct 19, 2007)

I figured I'd chime in here (thanks to my friend Dena for pointing it out).

Like Gloria, I'm black and a member of a PCA church. At the same time, I really don't give my "black"-ness much of a thought. When I think of things that I find my identity in, being black is not one of them. Never has been. This is probably due to a number of factors -- the fact that most of my formative years were spent in middle-class suburbia (predominately white). The fact that, finding my identity primarily in Christ rather than my ethnicity, the things I find valuable sometimes differ sharply from other black people (even those who know Christ).

So, even though I've definitely experienced the effects of systemic racism (even in the church) from white people . . . the fact that I'm not "black enough" for some black people's liking has brought some disdain from that side as well. It's interesting to look back on my middle- and high-school years and remember all the junk I took from my "brothers and sisters" for being terrible at basketball (but excellent at baseball) and actually enunciating and using proper grammar when I spoke. It's not really much wonder that I quickly gravitated toward people of other races to form friendships with.

Anyway . . . not bitter.

I'm also aware of the tiny racist contingent in some reformed denominations (the PCA included), taking forms such as the League of the South. As disturbing as that is, I'm thankful to God that by and large, racial reconciliation is happening where it's needed in the church. It's still a bit odd for me to think about "racial reconciliation", since, as I alluded to . . . the people I need to be reconciled to most are probably people of my own race.

As far as local churches go, I can only speak of my own . . . and it's not really much of an issue right now. We're an urban church plant with a missional focus located in a very arts-saturated and bohemian district of downtown Columbus. My daughter and I are the only non-white members of the church right now, but there's still a good amount of diversity (socio-economic diversity, educational diversity, diversity of family situations, etc). We had a long-standing partnership with a nearby Ethiopian Orthodox church to tutor their kids, and that worked out really well and built some bridges there. I have no doubt that if more black families (or Asian families or Indian families or Native American families for that matter) came to our church, they'd be treated with the same love and dignity all people are treated with there -- without lame attempts at being "culturally relevant".

As far as interracial marriage goes . . . well, I'd better be okay with it!


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## turmeric (Oct 19, 2007)

Archlute;315446
No joke. I was in an OPC service in the Pacific NW one time when a black man said:


> Poor guy! That whole PC thing is making reconcilliation harder In my humble opinion. My ancestors on my adoptive mom's side attended a Baptist church during the period of slavery which included blacks. We wouldn't want to do things the way they did; for instance; they dealt with the black members' issues at a separate elders' meeting once a month, they saw nothing wrong with slavery; but they had no doubt that slaves could be Christians.


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## Dr Mike Kear (Oct 19, 2007)

raekwon said:


> ...finding my identity primarily in Christ...



Would that all God's people embraced and manifested the truth of those six words.


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## a mere housewife (Oct 19, 2007)

It does seem like our whole culture is consciously self conscious about race. Even if you're incensed by racism, you've been drilled by media, school, legislation (the reconciliation efforts as well as the horrific stories, KKK etc) to notice skin color, at least to the extent of self consciously being the kind of person who doesn't notice.

We have a guy from Kenya in our church here on a student exchange program. I actually did forget his race, and was thinking sadly that there are no African-Americans in our church; which shows you how well, I think, that he fits in: truly worship transcends our culture's fixation on this issue. He is great fun and has been extremely kind to us personally. I hope it is the beginning of a more balanced racial representation in our small church (we don't have any Hispanic people for instance, either). It's been a concern for me as regards our desire to adopt that it might be hard on an adopted child if he had to notice that we didn't worship with anyone else of his race. I know our church would reach out alike to anyone of any race: but we don't have that opportunity very often, and I do think that the self consciousness of our society can't help but intrude to some degree sadly for us as well as potential visitors. It is worship though that is the answer to all such societal scars.


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 19, 2007)

a mere housewife said:


> It does seem like our whole culture is consciously self conscious about race. Even if you're incensed by racism, you've been drilled by media, school, legislation (the reconciliation efforts as well as the horrific stories, KKK etc) to notice skin color, at least to the extent of self consciously being the kind of person who doesn't notice.



This actually reminds me of a good lesson from (gasp) a _South Park_ episode!

Chef (one of the only black people in the town, and the main kids' usual mentor) was protesting that the South Park flag be changed, since it was a picture of a few white people hanging a black person. The red-neck conservatives were counter-protesting, saying that it shouldn't be changed since it is part of South Park's history. So the boys were assigned from school to collectively write a paper on which side is right, and present it before the town. When Chef talked to them and found that they didn't see anything wrong with the flag, he was angry and walked away. When it was finally time for the boys to present, they basically said that people shouldn't be offended by the flag, since _killing_ had been around for as long as people can remember, and is a normal part of society. Then Chef's like, "No, no, children, you missed the whole problem with that flag! It's offensive because it's a bunch of _white_ men hanging that one _black_ man!" to which the kids respond with an, "Ohhh."

Then Chef paused for few seconds, and, with shock in his voice and eyes, said to the adults, "Don't you all see? This whole time I thought these kids didn't see anything wrong with the flag because they must have been so desensitized to racism. But really, they're so _un-racist_ that they didn't even realize it was four white men hanging a black man, they just saw it as _five people_!"


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## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> > It does seem like our whole culture is consciously self conscious about race. Even if you're incensed by racism, you've been drilled by media, school, legislation (the reconciliation efforts as well as the horrific stories, KKK etc) to notice skin color, at least to the extent of self consciously being the kind of person who doesn't notice.
> ...



That was a hilarious episode!


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## Gloria (Oct 19, 2007)

Archlute said:


> Gloria said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly believe it becomes awkward when people...let me just be real...WHITE people make it an issue by trying to "relate" or "be relevant" on my behalf. Just behave naturally. If you would say "what's up" to your white friends, don't say it to me. LOL...also, I can't stand when people call me "African American" because I feel they are only doing it because they were taught that it's the politically correct thing to do. Of course, I'm only speaking on my behalf.
> ...



*smh* yikes.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 19, 2007)

raekwon said:


> all the junk I took from my "brothers and sisters" for being terrible at basketball (but excellent at baseball)



from your pic its hard to believe you suck at basketball. you got an athlete's demeanor.


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