# ...all in the name of the Lord Jesus...



## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

This week we started memorizing scripture as a family, one verse per week. To add a little fun to it, on Saturday we'll put all our names into a hat and pick a name and see if that person can recite the verse. My youngest was a blessing to me yesterday when he told me he'd already memorized it and asked if we could go get the hat. 

The verse we're memorizing this week is:

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. 

Don't tell them, but I think the verse we'll do next week will be Psalm 19:14, so between the two we'll cover the things we say, the things we do, and the things we think.

Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. 

Anyway, getting back to Colossians 3:17, what does it mean in our everyday interactions with people that all our words and deeds be done in the name of the Lord Jesus? When you/I talk with coworkers, friends, neighbors, etc., or are helping them with something, how can we tell if we're doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus? How can we tell when we're not doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus?

Also, as an aside, in anticipation of a question that may arise, and for my own curiosity as well, when it says "...giving thanks to God *and* the Father by him", why do you think the word 'and' is included - why didn't Paul write "...giving thanks to God the Father by him"?


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## gwine (Jan 18, 2007)

I do notice that the translation adding the word 'and' is the KJV - even the NKJV does not have the word. Looking at some of the Greek sources at biblegateway.com I also notice that one of them, the 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament, does not have the Greek conjunction _kai_, whereas the other 2, the 1550 Stephanus New Testament and the 1894 Scrivener New Testament, do.

Brighter minds than mine will have to explain, but it appears to be a result of which Greek source the translator used.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

gwine said:


> I do notice that the translation adding the word 'and' is the KJV - even the NKJV does not have the word. Looking at some of the Greek sources at biblegateway.com I also notice that one of them, the 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament, does not have the Greek conjunction _kai_, whereas the other 2, the 1550 Stephanus New Testament and the 1894 Scrivener New Testament, do.
> 
> Brighter minds than mine will have to explain, but it appears to be a result of which Greek source the translator used.



Gerry,
Thanks for checking into it. Your findings have the potential of .

For 'brighter minds than mine', *IF* the kai was in the original manuscripts, any idea why?

(If Westcott-Hort is correct, 'problem' solved)


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## Calvibaptist (Jan 18, 2007)

Seems like a tough textual question. Looking at the apparatus in the Nestle-Aland 28th edition, it would seem that a lot of texts have the "kai" in there, some of which are usually used in the critical text family (D, F, G, etc). Also, the Majority Text includes it. There would seem to be a lot of evidence for the "kai." Of course, the big ones in the Critical Text family don't have it (Aleph, A, B, C), which is why the Westcott-Hort and the Nestle-Aland leave it out. BTW, P46 (the oldest surviving manuscript containing the Pauline epistles) does have the "kai."

Still, I wonder why the KJV would not render it "giving thanks to the God and Father through Him" rather than "giving thanks to God and the Father through Him." The placement of the definite article (which is not in the Greek anywhere) in the translation would seem to matter a lot.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

Its interesting that the phrase 'God and the Father' is found 4 places in the KJV NT, and in each of these place its translated without the "and" in the ESV.

*KJV*
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

*ESV*
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 

Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. 

Jam 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Seems like a tough textual question. Looking at the apparatus in the Nestle-Aland 28th edition, it would seem..



Tough question to go with the tough answer

 Boy, do I hate to show my ignorance (too often), but what do you mean by *apparatus* in the Nestle...


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## Calvibaptist (Jan 18, 2007)

blhowes said:


> Its interesting that the phrase 'God and the Father' is found 4 places in the KJV NT, and in each of these place its translated without the "and" in the ESV.



In Ephesians 5:20, all the texts have the word "kai" in them. Some switch the order of God and Father to Father and God. The NASB translates the "kai" as "even" showing that they thought it was epexegetical (explaining that God is the Father). The ESV did the same thing by just saying "God the Father."

In Colossians 1:3, the interesting thing is that some of the heavy hitters from both texts have the "kai" in them (except for P46, B, and C). Both the ESV and the NASB translate the "kai" epexegetically with a comma. The NKJV translates it "the God and Father" to show the epexegetical usage. Only the KJV translates it "God and the Father" which could signify two different people.

We have already touched on Colossians 3:17

In James 1:17, the "kai" is there in all the texts. There is no textual variant listed. The ESV handles it epexegetically by inserting a comma instead of translating the "and." The NASB inserts the possessive "our" before God to show the epexegetical approach. Both the KJV and the NKJV translate the "kai" literally into "and."

I think this is more a question of the usage of the word "kai" than it is a question of text families. In most cases, all the major translations seem to agree. Although the KJV sometimes makes it a little more difficult.


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## Calvibaptist (Jan 18, 2007)

blhowes said:


> Tough question to go with the tough answer
> 
> Boy, do I hate to show my ignorance (too often), but what do you mean by *apparatus* in the Nestle...



Sometimes I am not sure what I mean! 

The "apparatus" is the listing of the textual variants in the Greek Text. At the bottom of every page in the Nestle-Aland text, they have the major differences listed between each of the texts so that you can make better informed decision as to what the reading ought to be. The differences usually involve things like this discussion (the word "and" or word order). Sometimes, though, as is the case in the story of the woman caught in adultery, the differences are more major.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Sometimes I am not sure what I mean!
> 
> The "apparatus" is the listing of the textual variants in the Greek Text. At the bottom of every page in the Nestle-Aland text, they have the major differences listed between each of the texts so that you can make better informed decision as to what the reading ought to be. The differences usually involve things like this discussion (the word "and" or word order). Sometimes, though, as is the case in the story of the woman caught in adultery, the differences are more major.



Thanks.


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## Calvibaptist (Jan 18, 2007)

blhowes said:


> Anyway, getting back to Colossians 3:17, what does it mean in our everyday interactions with people that all our words and deeds be done in the name of the Lord Jesus? When you/I talk with coworkers, friends, neighbors, etc., or are helping them with something, how can we tell if we're doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus? How can we tell when we're not doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus?



Now, on to the more important part of your question! This command sounds very similar to the Third Commandment (taking God's name in vain). I don't believe any of this JUST refers to swearing. I believe it refers to having your conduct back up your claim. We claim to be God's; we are to live like it.

I think Colossians 3:17 interprets itself. "Do all in the name of the Lord" is explained in the next phrase as "giving thanks to the God <i>and</i> the Father by Him." Simplistically, we are to live our lives thankfully. Everyday. Everywhere.

This will look differently in different situations with different people. It most appropriately hits your motives first and then your conduct. Thankfulness is not conduct, but the seedbed of conduct. If you look at the list of commands given by the apostles in their various letters, doing it all in the name of the Lord would involve a thankful heart, not grudging outward obedience. The Pharisees were good at the latter, but Christ condemned them.


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## blhowes (Jan 18, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Now, on to the more important part of your question! This command sounds very similar to the Third Commandment (taking God's name in vain). I don't believe any of this JUST refers to swearing. I believe it refers to having your conduct back up your claim. We claim to be God's; we are to live like it.
> 
> I think Colossians 3:17 interprets itself. "Do all in the name of the Lord" is explained in the next phrase as "giving thanks to the God <i>and</i> the Father by Him." Simplistically, we are to live our lives thankfully. Everyday. Everywhere.
> 
> This will look differently in different situations with different people. It most appropriately hits your motives first and then your conduct. Thankfulness is not conduct, but the seedbed of conduct. If you look at the list of commands given by the apostles in their various letters, doing it all in the name of the Lord would involve a thankful heart, not grudging outward obedience. The Pharisees were good at the latter, but Christ condemned them.



That sounds like a good explanation. Thanks


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## turmeric (Jan 19, 2007)

I have the ESV Greek-English Reverse Interlinear NT, looked up the verse, no "kai".


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## BJClark (Jan 19, 2007)

blhowes;




> Anyway, getting back to Colossians 3:17, what does it mean in our everyday interactions with people that all our words and deeds be done in the name of the Lord Jesus? When you/I talk with coworkers, friends, neighbors, etc., or are helping them with something, how can we tell if we're doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus? How can we tell when we're not doing it in the name of the Lord Jesus?



I was just talking to my daughter about this the other day, when she was sharing some troubles going on at work.

I explained it this way, "Don't look at your boss as being your boss, or your supervisor being your supervisor, look at it that you work directly FOR God, in all that you do. He is the one you will ultimately answer to for your words and actions...He is the one who provides you with your employment...not the *person* who hires you. If we really believe God directs our paths, and He provides ALL things, then He is the one who opens those doors for where ever we work, so we work for Him not the person standing there, so in that God is the one who used this person to hire you, it is only by God allowing it for them to fire you, and as long as you are doing what you know God wants you to do, putting in a good days work for a good days pay, God will typically not fire you unless, there is something He wants you to learn through that experience. So even in the loss of a job, we know that God is in control, and has something else planned for our lives, and is working to bring those things to pass."

And as far as how we can tell when we're not working for God a couple of ways I notice is we tend to get frustrated easier and join in conversations we shouldn't, we don't stand up to/for others when they or someone else is badmouthing or gossiping. We get rude and disrespectful to others in our frustrations.


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