# Definition of Sacrament of Baptism



## Scott (Sep 16, 2004)

What are thoughts from non-Baptists on the quote below, which is from Richard Muller, "baptismus," in Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms, 56?

[quote:f410315148]Baptism is a sacramentum because it is a ritual act commanded by God, consisting in a visible sign of God's grace and accompanied by a divine promise. The purpose or goal and the effect of baptism are, immediately or proximately, the regeneration or renovation of the baptized and, ultimately, their eternal salvation. The scholastics here recognize a distinction between the baptism of infants and the baptism of adults. For infants the sacrament of baptism provides the ordinary or ordained means of regeneration and only secondarily functions as a seal of faith insofar as it is a seal of the foedus gratiae, or covenant of grace, into which children of believers are born. Lutherans as well as Reformed view baptism as the sign or seal of the covenant of grace, but the Lutherans argue that infants do not belong to the covenant or partake of covenant-holiness before baptism, whereas the Reformed argue the covenant before baptism. For adults the sacrament of baptism provides principally a seal and a testimony of the grace already bestowed by the Word and, secondarily, an augmentation of the regenerating grace of God. Thus, infants are baptized before hearing the Word, in the expectation that they will receive from their baptism the first-fruits of the gracious work of the Spirit, including faith, whereas adults must first hear the Word and be brought by it to faith and only thereafter are baptized. Against the Anabaptists, who refuse baptism to infants on the ground that infants cannot have faith, both the Lutherans and the Reformed argue the efficacy of divine grace and the fact that faith arises because of grace in the case both of infants and of adults. [/quote:f410315148]


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 16, 2004)

I am not struggling in agreeing with this............The key here is this statement: "..immediately or proximately".

His position that Children can have faith without hearing the word is unbiblical. The ordo submits that the infant can be regenerated prior to hearing the word, but the child must hear and understand the word prior to being converted (generally).


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## Scott (Sep 17, 2004)

Many reformed have affirmed and taught infant faith. In any event, it is taught in the scripture (the example of John the Baptist, who had the Holy Spirit in the womb and recognized a leapt for joy at the presence of the Jesus in the womb). Of course, it is a primitive faith. However, I am not sure it is directly related to baptism.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 17, 2004)

Scott,
Regeneration! Not faith. John was filled w/ the HS. This does not necessarily imply "faith". Regeneration, yes. The scriptures are clear, faith cometh by hearing the word of God. I know of no such thing as 'primitive faith'; sorry. I am willing to listen however.........


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## Scott (Sep 17, 2004)

Scott - I don't want to get into a discussion of whether infant's can have faith. I don't think someone can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without faith (hence John the Baptist had faith). I do think it relates to the issue of infant salvation. 

I don't know if nobody is reading the definition, but I think there are opther parts that could make people choke.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 17, 2004)

Infants can assuredly have faith; no one is denying that. The scriptures are clear, faith comes by hearing the Word. Infants dying in [i:2e1630b3a4] infancy [/i:2e1630b3a4], God possibly deals with them differently; only he knows that though. Generally, if a child is predestined to live a longer life, i.e. to adulthhood, this child will need to hear the word prior to his conversion. John was a godly man. He was converted, i.e fulfillment of the ordo salutis, under the preaching of Gods word.

[quote:2e1630b3a4] I don't think someone can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without faith (hence John the Baptist had faith). [/quote:2e1630b3a4]

You say, "you don't think". This is essentially opinion. It is not based upon scripture.


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## Scott (Sep 20, 2004)

[quote:1d3e654c9f]You say, "you don't think". This is essentially opinion. It is not based upon scripture.[/quote:1d3e654c9f]

No, I was just using a polite way of speaking. I will rephrase. My understanding of scripture on this point is correct; your understanding of scripture on this point is wrong. 

Scott


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 20, 2004)

Scott,
What does scripture say about how faith comes to men? The scripture of John does not say he had faith but that he was filled.......men must hear the word before they can have faith (generally).
Also, the ordo salutis disagree's with you................men can definately be regenerate yet not have faith. 

Convince me..........


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## Scott (Sep 20, 2004)

Scott - I don't want to discuss infant faith, salvation, etc. I am more interested in the baptism question. Thanks


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