# Election and Predestination and The Sovereignty of God in Salvation



## dudley (Aug 26, 2012)

I am an ex Roman catholic and a convert to the Reformed Protestant faith and I am as many know now a Presbyterian. Roman Catholicism does not believe in predestination because it would contradict their false Gospel of faith and works. 

I have come to believe in the Reformed Protestant teaching of Election and Predestination and The Sovereignty of God in Salvation. 

I now also firmly believe the doctrine of election simply means that God, uninfluenced and before creation, predetermined certain people to be saved. And in our finite mind we can not comprehend the infinite where there really is no time…

I also completely agree with you that by exercise of His Sovereign Will, he bars some from the truth of the Gospel message but they become reprobate by their own actions which are also His predestined divine sovereign will. The end result of which is damnation (reprobation) by God's action, but their own self condemnation. 

I now also believe in the doctrine of predestination because I believe Man is completely a sinner and is incapable of understanding and coming to God and has a sinful free will capable only of rejecting God. Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. It can be no other way. I began to see by going to the weekly bible class in my Presbyterian church and taught by the assistant Pastor that the bible supports predestination completely….the following verses definitely support predestination…
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD. Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR Christ'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake. Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will. Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will. I do not agree with Augustine however on any innocent baby not baptized going to hell. There is also scriptural grounds for this. I believe that God is sovereign over all and because He is sovereign He can infuse a baptism of desire in an innocent baby. 

I go to the bible however as the final and only authority because I believe in the doctrines of the Reformation and Sola sriptura particularly. St Augustine can err as any man can…one of the reasons I am now a Protestant is I do not accept the pope as the vicar of Christ nor His teachings and encyclicals equal with the bible, which is why I am now a Presbyterian Protestant.

I believe there are good reasons biblically and theologically for believing that God saves all who die who do not reach a stage of moral understanding and accountability. I will admit that Scripture does not speak to this issue directly, yet there is evidence that can be given that would lead us to affirm on biblical grounds that God receives into heaven all who have died in infancy. Some evidence is stronger than others, but cumulatively they affirm strong support for infant salvation. I will note a few of them….

First, the grace, goodness and mercy of God would support the position that God saves all infants who die. This is the strongest argument and perhaps the decisive one. God is love (1 John 4:8) and desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). God is love and His concern for children is evident in Matthew 18:14 where Jesus says, “Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.” People go to hell because they choose in willful rebellion and unbelief to reject God and His grace. Children are incapable of this kind of conscious rejection of God. Because I believe in predestination I believe god can predestine un baptized infants to have a baptism of desire because He is sovereign. Where such rebellion and willful disobedience is absent, God is gracious to receive.

.In James 4:17, the Bible says, “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.” The Bible is clear that we are all born with a sin nature as a result of being in Adam (Roman 5:12). This is what is called the doctrine of original sin. However, the Scriptures make a distinction between original sin and actual sins. While all are guilty of original sin, moral responsibility and understanding is necessary for our being accountable for actual sins (Deuteronomy 1:30; Isaiah 7:16). It is to the one who knows to do right and does not do it that sin is reckoned. Infants are incapable of such decisions.

I also believe Jesus affirmed that the kingdom of God belonged to little children (Luke 18:15-17). In the passage he is stating that saving faith is a childlike faith, but He also seems to be affirming the reality of children populating heaven.

Scripture affirms that the number of saved souls is very great (Revelation 7:9). Since most of the world has been and is still non-Christian, might it be the untold multitude who have died prematurely or in infancy comprise a majority of those in heaven? Such a possibility ought not to be dismissed too quickly. In this context Charles Spurgeon said, “I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them.”

There are some in Scripture are said to be chosen or sanctified from the womb (1 Samuel 1:8-2:21; Jeremiah 1:5; Luke 1:15). This certainly affirms the salvation of some infants and repudiates the view that only baptized babies are assured of heaven. Neither Samuel, Jeremiah or John the Baptist was baptized. This also supports the theological theory of baptism of desire.

Finally After surveying these arguments have come to believe it is important for us to remember that anyone who is saved is saved because of the grace of God, the saving work of Jesus Christ and the undeserved and unmerited regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Like all who have ever lived, except for Jesus, infants need to be saved. Only Jesus can take away their sin, and if they are saved it is because of His sovereign grace and abounding mercy. Abraham said, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25). We can confidently say, “Yes, He will.” When it comes to those incapable of volitional, willful acts of sin, we can rest assured God will, indeed, do right. Precious little ones are the objects of His saving mercy and grace.

I also read the following while reading some CH Spurgeon this past year. As many know he was great Baptist pastor, Charles Spurgeon, preached a message entitled “Infant Salvation.” In that message he chastened some critics who had “. . . wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists that we believe that some little children perish.” Similar rumblings have been heard in some Baptist circles of late. Spurgeon affirmed that God saved little ones without limitation and without exception. He, then, as was his manner, turned to conclude the message with an evangelistic appeal to parents who might be lost. 
I again do not say any individual man is totally correct. Spurgeon could be in error , Augustine can err and so can the pope and so can I or any one else for that matter. But I think there is enough scriptural proof I mentioned that supports innocent babies not baptized being saved. I support that position and not St Augustine’s position.


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## Andres (Aug 26, 2012)

I believe the position that ALL infants are automatically saved contradicts WCF 10.3 which reads: 



> Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.



I am certainly open to being corrected here, but my understanding of WCF 10.3 is that only elect infants are regenerated, as opposed to all infants automatically. Another way to state this is that I don't believe all infants are necessarily elect. Again, I am open to being corrected on this point. Personally I believe the teaching that all infants are saved is born simply out of emotion. No one wants to think of an innocent child perishing, however the issue then becomes is there such a thing as an innocent child? I would contend that verses such as Psalm 51:5 teach otherwise. Also if we will contend that children are born "innocent" then what of the doctrine of original sin? 

Again, when people object that an infant could be damned, they generally speak out of emotion. If we consider that the issue isn't how God could damn anyone, but rather how he could save anyone, then God is completely just in his decisions. This is completely fair in the same way that only elect adults are regenerated. Now with that said, I am a firm believer that God has given strong promises to his covenant people. He has promised that the children of Christian parents are also children of the covenant, so whenever a Christian has an child die of any age, I fully believe that child to be elect and therefore saved by the grace of God.


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## Andres (Aug 26, 2012)

dudley said:


> In James 4:17, the Bible says, “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.” The Bible is clear that we are all born with a sin nature as a result of being in Adam (Roman 5:12). This is what is called the doctrine of original sin. However, the Scriptures make a distinction between original sin and actual sins. While all are guilty of original sin, moral responsibility and understanding is necessary for our being accountable for actual sins (Deuteronomy 1:30; Isaiah 7:16). It is to the one who knows to do right and does not do it that sin is reckoned. Infants are incapable of such decisions.



Dudley, could you please clarify this paragraph? I am reading it to say that you do not believe original sin to be sufficient for damnation.


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## newcreature (Aug 26, 2012)

dudley said:


> I believe there are good reasons biblically and theologically for believing that God saves all who die who do not reach a stage of moral understanding and accountability. I will admit that Scripture does not speak to this issue directly, yet there is evidence that can be given that would lead us to affirm on biblical grounds that God receives into heaven all who have died in infancy. Some evidence is stronger than others, but cumulatively they affirm strong support for infant salvation. I will note a few of them….





dudley said:


> There are some in Scripture are said to be chosen or sanctified from the womb (1 Samuel 1:8-2:21; Jeremiah 1:5; Luke 1:15). This certainly affirms the salvation of some infants and repudiates the view that only baptized babies are assured of heaven. Neither Samuel, Jeremiah or John the Baptist was baptized. This also supports the theological theory of baptism of desire.



Dudley, first of all, I am so glad that the Lord saved you. I praise Him that He brought you out of the Catholic Church and into the knowledge of predestination and sovereignty! Welcome, dear brother!

I do, however have some questions about your post here. Now I am no theologian, so I will only ask. But if what you say is true, then wouldn't that mean that God did not predestine those whom He foreknew, in eternity past, before the beginning? If all babies are saved by default, and this is difficult for be because I have lost a baby and would like to believe nothing more, but wouldn't that mean that at some time during that child's life He decided to save them? Then that would make God a liar and would make the Doctrine of Predestination untrue. Yes, some children were saved even in the womb, and some are saved late into adulthood, but all who are saved were predestined to be so. So if any one who was not predestined should perish in infancy, how is it that they can now be saved, when God did not predestine them to be so? 

It must be that not all infants are saved, because this would mean that all people are saved. At what age would you suggest that God "predestines" one to salvation, if not prior to creation, and therefore prior to their birth. This would mean that aborted, miscarried, stillborn, and young children must all have been predestined for glory or for destruction prior to their conception and therefore cannot be automatically saved just because of their age.


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