# Magic the Gathering, Refocused Argument



## austinbrown2 (May 2, 2008)

I want to thank all of you for offering your thoughts about magic in the card game Magic the Gathering (and by extension, video games, etc.). Please bear with me as I continue to wrestle with this issue.

Most of you have said that playing the game is fine, but I’m still hesitant. Indeed, I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t a flaw in the overall reasoning. Don’t get me wrong here, I really like the game (and things like Elder Scrolls, or whatever), and I don’t want to give them up unless they are defacto wrong, because, well, video games (with fantasy magic) and Magic the Gathering are my personal hobbies.

Naturally, one would rightly counsel me, based upon Romans 14, that if I condemn myself or don’t have a clear conscience, then playing them would be sin. And I agree. But I’m wondering if this issue isn’t more objective than that. Is playing Magic the Gathering bad for the Christian (all Christians)?

Here’s why in a nutshell. Three points:

One: The elements of Magic the Gathering are, to greater and lesser degrees, connected with concepts/themes in reality that are sinful. You summon shamans, for example, witches, and sorcerers (and some of their peculiar items). These persons/creatures reflect realities in our world.

Two: In order to summon these creatures, you utilize something called mana, which has roots in paganism. Mana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Three: Lastly, you play sorcery spells and cast enchantments of all sorts and flavors.

Now if we agree that these three elements are rooted in concepts (If not, where?) that one finds in our world/history, and if we agree that the real thing is sinful and is detestable, then how can playing a game with these themes be appropriate for a Christian? Allow me to amplify the point slightly. If we are to have the mind of Christ, and if Christ hates these things (the things in the real world), then shouldn’t our attitude reflect Christ’s, and we would therefore shy away from such themes, or at least put the burden of proof on those who would say they are merely fantasy and don’t share any substantial connection to the concepts that are evil?

I am well aware of the slippery slope argument at this point (and maybe that can be settled more objectively too), but set that aside for the moment. Can, say, Magic the Gathering be played without, oh, I don’t know quite how to say it exactly, but can it be played without being linked with the darkness or played without somehow condoning (directly or indirectly), or falling into the error of not hating what God hates- trivializing the evil? If so, what is the rationale?

(An aside: Listen, I like fantasy. I’m not trying to kill fantasy. Lord of the Rings simply doesn’t smack wrong to me, but that being said, is Magic the Gathering different? If so, why? I’m really bugged by this whole issue and can’t sort it out in my mind. Thanks for putting up with me.)

Austin


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## Grymir (May 2, 2008)

This is part of Christian Liberty that is hard. You have to come to your own conclusions. Some things that are fine with me are not with others. Some things that others can do, I can't. But I don't think they are hellspawn or bound because of it. I would stumble if I did things they are free to do and vica versa. It sounds like your struggle is right on. I'm more aware than most of the things you are struggling with. I hate to sound like Yoda when I say follow your heart, but follow your mind and conscious. Your reasoning is sound.


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## Augusta (May 2, 2008)

Timothy mentioned in the other thread the following: "I played for years (I was the Dungeon Master) and it can be harmless. I laid a few ground rules for all my players. They had to be 'good', no 'neutral' or 'evil' alignment choice allowed (and this was in my pagan days)."

My question to all is if it is just pretend and it doesn't matter then why isn't ok to be on the evil side or neutral? Why can we be a good witch but not a bad witch? There really is not difference if it's just a game right?

I mean this seriously. My conscience is pricked, when I play Oblivion, not to be a thief and not to join the Dark Brotherhood, but I feel fine about being a Mage who casts spells. I wouldn't be a thief in real life or a murderer, but I also wouldn't be a mage in real life either.


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## Grymir (May 3, 2008)

Hi, Well for starters part of the picking good or evil is also to be lawful or chaotic. On that you could pick. Lawful meant you could only do purely good things, chaotic meant that you could do, well shall I say, more grey things. Usually when a player would want to pick evil, it had different ramifications that being an 'evil witch'. Usually they were thieves or fighters, and wanted to do bad things to other players. Which I would not allow. We had to be a team. Some people would allow player to attack fellow players, but those campaigns would be short lived. A chaotic good thief could use his skills to steal a key that would open a door to alot of treasure, but an evil thief would use it to try and open the door and keep it all to themselves. Some Dungeon Masters would take pleasure in rooking other players, but not me. Those are the kind of Dungeon Masters that give the game a bad name. For us (and most D&D players), we were living some of the epic adventures that we read about. Yip, yip, yahoo! For others, they would do stuff that was not good. But they usually didn't play D&D for long, and would move to some of the darker games that were not good. (Although most of these kinds of players never played D&D. They would usually start with the darker games. But most people lump them all into one category and generically call them all Dungeons and Dragons)

The use of the word 'witch' doesn't have much to do with the game of D&D. Gandolf isn't a witch. That is why I only talk about the game of D&D. If a person hasn't played it, such distinctions are lost. That's why I was talking about conscience in my previous post. To play an Elven Wizard/Warrior and save the world form an Evil Warlord is different than being a witch as most people think of it. But if someone's conscience is bugging them, then they shouldn't play. For some people, the wizard in D&D and witch in real life aren't separable. And that's O.K.

P.s. Real 'warlocks' look at Gandolf like he's some kind of wanna be, a little 2 year old wuss, a circus clown. But most people don't know this.


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## austinbrown2 (May 3, 2008)

*Wishing this were more objective*

I appreciate the responses, but I don't "feel" much better  I wish, as I imagine many of you have wished at times, I could get a direct answer from heaven. That would be nice, wouldn't it? 

I tend to have the kind of conscience that once it begins to feel unsettled, almost anything short of certainty can't pull it out for fear of being wrong... which then leads to thoughts of "The Lord will hate me..." which stirs up another battle of the mind. 

And consistency is hard on this issue. I mean really, if my rationale is sound, and it sure seems sound, then the same would surely have to apply to my hacking people with battle axes and shooting countless people in video games. But alas, conscience is a key element in all of this, but so is maturity and so is freedom. The difficulty is sorting out what is what. 

To be honest, I'm bummed. I think I'm going to have to give up playing Magic the Gathering because I harbor some doubt about it. But on the other hand, there's a part of me that still thinks, "Look, it's fantasy," and "it seems like playing it would be fine." In other words, if my rationale is correct, I don't detest as I should. 

Austin


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## Davidius (May 3, 2008)

It is objective that anything not done from faith is sin. If your conscience won't allow you to play, then you shouldn't play. That's a precept directly from heaven!


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## holyfool33 (May 3, 2008)

This goes back to the old arguments Christians had for and agaenst Dungons and Dragons. It's not intrinsclly evil but there are certen problems with fantsy like while D&D is prmarelly harmless there are cases where a psychotic personality will use a game like D&D to minipulate people this is seen in the historypsychodrama the pre cursour to D&D.


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## austinbrown2 (May 3, 2008)

*Davidius (and others)*

Well, that's certainly true, Davidius. My conscience has doubts. But it has doubts because it doesn't know for sure, because the issue, at least according to the majority of voices here, is subjective. That being said, nobody has really interacted with the logic of my refocused argument, which I think is objective (Either it is correct, or it is not). In the light of my reasoning, one or two things are stated:

(1) They say, "If you take this road, you'll have to throw out a lot of stuff, and that my friend, seems absurd, no?"

(2) Each person must decide whether it seems right in their own eyes (Which, appears to me anyway, to beg the question).

Here, look at it this way. Would anyone really suggest that playing a game built around raping women or abusing children is subjective and open to personal conscience? Of course not. But! as someone will surely say, that is obviously wrong. In that case, I simply ask, did not God drive out nations that practiced sorcery (and all that went with it), and did not God require his covenant people to be different from those who practiced such things, and aren't we to share the mind of God who abhores such practices. Therefore, is it a jump to think that Christians are oblilgated to avoid games that adopt pictures/terminological concepts that borrow ideas from these realities?

That question seems more objective to me. Grymir has stated that Magic the Gathering and D&D are mere childs play compared to the real thing. Ok, fair enough. That's potentially a fruitful direction. Or someone might say that the Christian simply deconstructs the idea and relegates it to the arena of mere fiction, pure fantasy. I'm not so sure that holds water, however. For if someone is "casting a spell" "scrying", surely there is a prima facie collaboration with something real in our world. The same is true with mana, shamans, witches, casting enchantments, utilizing talismans, and pretty much every other imaginable pagan, magical tool or concept.

(An aside: And didn't Gandolf engage in such things, or at least his mentor who surely taught him to use such things? Talk about a monkey wrench in the purity of Lord of the Rings... or is it not?)

With D&D, I had more control over terms and magic. I avoided certain concepts. But with video games and Magic the Gathering, that control is gone. 

So anyway, isn't this issue far more objective in those instances? I'd love to arrive at a conclusion that presents a sound rationale for playing these games, but so far, I see no way out. After all, everyone would agree that engaging in something defacto sin is sin, regardless of whether one has faith that is it permissable and good. 

So that's where I'm at.

Austin


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## Davidius (May 3, 2008)

austinbrown2 said:


> Well, that's certainly true, Davidius. My conscience has doubts. But it has doubts because it doesn't know for sure, because the issue, at least according to the majority of voices here, is subjective. That being said, nobody has really interacted with the logic of my refocused argument, which I think is objective (Either it is correct, or it is not). In the light of my reasoning, one or two things are stated:
> 
> (1) They say, "If you take this road, you'll have to throw out a lot of stuff, and that my friend, seems absurd, no?"



The most effective _reductio ad absurdum_ requires that the line of deduction be reduced to a logical contradiction. To say "If we get rid of fantasy games, we also have to get rid of fiction novels" does not create an actual contradiction; it merely forces the person, if it is proven that the two are like cases, to get rid of both fantasy games and fiction novels for the sake of logical consistency. One who disagrees with you would have to be willing to admit that, if you are right, all such games, books, and jobs which require people to be familiar with these things are evil. 



> (2) Each person must decide whether it seems right in their own eyes (Which, appears to me anyway, to beg the question).
> 
> Here, look at it this way. Would anyone really suggest that playing a game built around raping women or abusing children is subjective and open to personal conscience? Of course not. But! as someone will surely say, that is obviously wrong. In that case, I simply ask, did not God drive out nations that practiced sorcery (and all that went with it), and did not God require his covenant people to be different from those who practiced such things, and aren't we to share the mind of God who abhores such practices. Therefore, is it a jump to think that Christians are oblilgated to avoid games that adopt pictures/terminological concepts that borrow ideas from these realities?



Whether there is a jump involved is the heart of the question. You mention rape and child abuse, assuming that they are equated with the "sorcery" found in games such as D&D. I, on the other hand, don't believe that the Old Testament is referring to casting ice bolts, fireballs, healing spells, and weapon enchantments when it denounces sorcery as an abomination. If anything, my conscience would probably not permit me to play as a Necromancer, but other than that, I think you need to show that the "magic" in these games is the kind of thing that the OT is denouncing. I would assume, however, that it's talking about raising the dead, putting curses on people, etc. 



> That question seems more objective to me. Grymir has stated that Magic the Gathering and D&D are mere childs play compared to the real thing. Ok, fair enough. That's potentially a fruitful direction. Or someone might say that the Christian simply deconstructs the idea and relegates it to the arena of mere fiction, pure fantasy. *I'm not so sure that holds water, however. For if someone is "casting a spell" "scrying", surely there is a prima facie collaboration with something real in our world.* The same is true with mana, shamans, witches, casting enchantments, utilizing talismans, and pretty much every other imaginable pagan, magical tool or concept.



I think I understand what you're saying but could you explain the bolded sentence for me? Also, you have asserted a "prima facie collaboration" (whatever that is). How can you prove that there _must_ be one?



> So anyway, isn't this issue far more objective in those instances? I'd love to arrive at a conclusion that presents a sound rationale for playing these games, but so far, I see no way out. After all, everyone would agree that engaging in something defacto sin is sin, regardless of whether one has faith that is it permissable and good.
> 
> So that's where I'm at.
> 
> Austin



Well, if you really want my opinion, I believe that it's objectively a matter of liberty, which would mean that it's not sinful. What you need to do, I think, is prove that the activity in these games, in every case is the same thing that we find denounced in the scriptures. Words can sometimes be the source of equivocation, and we don't want to build an unscriptural wall based on an equivocation. For example, we use the word "magic" to describe the card tricks that the owner of this board does for a hobby, but I assume that you wouldn't label this as abominable sorcery (or would you?).


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## Scott (May 3, 2008)

Austin: You might find this article useful, even though it is about magic in fantasy novels as opposed to MTG (which I have zero experience with): Magic, Middle-earth, Merlin, Muggles, and Meaning. Some of the issues you raise are the same.


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## austinbrown2 (May 3, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks Scott for the article. I'll read it!

Davidius, it's late as I write this. I appreciate you hanging with me and offer guidance. Let me think about it tomorrow and I'll probably write back. Have a good Lord's Day!!!!

Austin


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## tellville (May 4, 2008)

When in doubt throw it out!

P.S.
I use to play Magic the Gathering all the time. I was big time and even entered tournaments (and won!). Do I think it was wrong of me to do so? No, not really. For me, it was just a game of wits trying to defeat my opponent. I didn't care if it was a prodigal sorcerer or a little bunny, if I tapped it it would hit you for one point. To me, the game was math and all the other stuff I was pretty oblivious too. I didn't think I was a wizard, I just knew that a lighting bolt was short hand for tap 1 red resource, you get hit for 3 points. Sounds like any other normal card game. So in my opinion I think it matters more what you are thinking while playing, not the actual card game itself.

And no, I don't play any more. (I played from around Antiquities to Mirage, dying off completely after Visions and Weatherlight)


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## austinbrown2 (May 4, 2008)

*Thanks Tellville!*

Thanks for jumping in. And sure, that is probably the best avenue, that is, when in doubt throw it out. I guess the bottom line is this: I think of the game the same way you do (I love the strategy, and yes, I place high in tournaments also). I would like it better if the theme wasn't magic, because that way there wouldn't be an issue whatsoever (at least in my mind, as some might not like the monsters or violence). 

Basically it comes down to this for me. If the issue is really objective subjective (in other words it comes down to conscience and isn't objectively sinful), then I will say to myself, "Be strong my conscience, it's ok. You aren't doing something objectively sinful." And then I'll proceed to play as I have before, not approving of real sorcery and even disliking the evil characters, but viewing it all as a game, yes, indeed, a game based upon math and careful strategy.

Cheers,
Austin


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## austinbrown2 (May 4, 2008)

*To Davidius*

In response to my pointing out that people respond with point two (Each person must decide whether it seems right in their own eyes... you respond with:

<<<<<<<<<"Whether there is a jump involved is the heart of the question. You mention rape and child abuse, assuming that they are equated with the "sorcery" found in games such as D&D. I, on the other hand, don't believe that the Old Testament is referring to casting ice bolts, fireballs, healing spells, and weapon enchantments when it denounces sorcery as an abomination. If anything, my conscience would probably not permit me to play as a Necromancer, but other than that, I think you need to show that the "magic" in these games is the kind of thing that the OT is denouncing. I would assume, however, that it's talking about raising the dead, putting curses on people, etc.">>>>>>>>>> 

Well, sure, tossing lightning bolts carries less weight than as say, summoning a shaman, or scrying, or utilizing mana (which is a common resource in most games) or playing as a necromancer (Like in Warcraft 3). But nevertheless, if a sorcerer is the one casting a spell, then surely there is a remote resemblance to real sorcerers, right? And when talking about Magic the Gathering, there are plenty of cards that raise a creature from the dead, so to speak. And there are cards that curse a creature in some sense (or simply obliterate them, which is different).

How much these things resemble that which the OT denounces, I can't say for sure, for I'm not very familiar with what Moses meant. Of course, I read about the witch and Saul, Pharaoh's magicians, etc., and gain some kind of idea. But the basic idea is trying to utilize power apart from God, or tapping into pagan sources for some supernatural benefit. Surely these game emulate that, at least to some degree, or at least, by the very similarity of terms (socerery, etc.) share some semblance. Don't you think?

You asked, >>>>>>>"I think I understand what you're saying but could you explain the bolded sentence for me? Also, you have asserted a "prima facie collaboration" (whatever that is). How can you prove that there must be one?"<<<<<<<<

Sorry about the prima facie collaboration talk. It's not very clear. My point was this: Some want to think of this magic as simply fantasy. Fair enough. But this fantasy surely shares a similtude to pagan realities. And to prove that point, I named a few things like scrying, like mana, like enchantments, like the very word sorcery and the very terminology of casting spells. In other words, there is a face value connection with the pagan realities that are bad. The very adoption of the language in connection with certain elements that can't be totally emptied of a specific meaning (Like scrying or raising dead creatures) thereby makes an unavoidable connection. Or at least that's what I'm driven by logic to think. 

I suppose I can't prove that there must be a connection, but unless one plays the role of postmodernistic relativism with language, then there appears to be a face value correlation. And I suppose it works the other way. One can't be sure that there isn't, and hence doubt and hence "If doubt throw it out." 


Lastly, you said, >>>>>>"Well, if you really want my opinion, I believe that it's objectively a matter of liberty, which would mean that it's not sinful. What you need to do, I think, is prove that the activity in these games, in every case is the same thing that we find denounced in the scriptures. Words can sometimes be the source of equivocation, and we don't want to build an unscriptural wall based on an equivocation. For example, we use the word "magic" to describe the card tricks that the owner of this board does for a hobby, but I assume that you wouldn't label this as abominable sorcery (or would you?)."<<<<<<<<

Well, no. I don't think illusion is sorcery. But yes, we sometimes call it magic. Do you therefore think that the Christian is on safe ground to constantly think of magical elements in games as different from the reality, and so very different from the reality that any real relational link is essentially nonexistant? If so, would that thereby mean emptying pretty specific words of their meaning? Take for example necromancer. You shy away from that. But what about a black card in MTG or an Undead Scourge army in Warcraft 3 or a Warhammer army/character that raises creatures from the dead, to name a few? The very concepts associated with necromancy bleed out into quite a few relevant specifics in games. Or maybe I should say that the acts of a sorcerer or necromancer bleed out. So really, is there a difference between raising something from the dead in generic terms or using a crystal ball to forsee something or see an area on a map outside normal human vision and the reality condemned in Scripture? Surely the sum result/effect closely mirrors the forbidden reality.

Cheers my fellow RPCNA man, and blessings.

Austin 

P.S. I spoke with my pastor and an elder I respect. Both seemed to speak about the issue as being somewhat grey, although both stressed the time wasting element of it all (which is truly a serious threat with these things).


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