# Is there still a "pastor glut"?



## Pergamum (Aug 27, 2014)

Protestant pastor on the job hunt? Good luck in this market - USATODAY.com



> Too many preachers, too many small churches and a bad economy make this one of the worst job markets for Protestant ministers in decades.
> 
> According to the Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, there are more than 600,000 ministers in the United States but only 338,000 churches. Many of those are small churches that can't afford a full-time preacher. Among Presbyterians, there are four pastors looking for work for every one job opening. It took Hildebrandt six months to land a spot.
> 
> ...



I read other statistics that say pastors leave the ministry in droves.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 27, 2014)

Indeed!

That is why I do everything in my power to discourage seminarians from going into deep debt. They will likely not be able to pay it off the way a physician or attorney might.


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## KMK (Aug 27, 2014)

Barna Research: https://www.barna.org/barna-update/...-churches-doubles-in-past-decade#.U_5g7ksTO0w

Female pastors on the rise + Church attendance in a free fall = No pastor jobs


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## Pergamum (Aug 27, 2014)

Wow.


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## Tim (Aug 27, 2014)

...and meanwhile, faithful Presbyterian denominations in North America and Scotland have vacant pulpits....


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## Edward (Aug 27, 2014)

DMcFadden said:


> not be able to pay it off the way a ... attorney might.



. Recent law school graduates that are going to end up rich from practicing law are about as common as recent seminary graduates that are going to become megachurch millionaires. And the percentage that will make enough to service student loan debt covering educational expenses is probably roughly the same for both groups.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 27, 2014)

Tim said:


> ...and meanwhile, faithful Presbyterian denominations in North America and Scotland have vacant pulpits....



Something that I pray for.


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## Theogenes (Aug 28, 2014)

We have at least 5-6 vacant pulpits in the RCUS right now...
RCUS


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## whirlingmerc (Aug 28, 2014)

I suspect you will see more pastors with part time jobs in small churches in the future.


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## kodos (Aug 28, 2014)

Last I heard we have more than a few open pulpits in the RPCNA.


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## KMK (Aug 28, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> I suspect you will see more pastors with part time jobs in small churches in the future.



In CA, the cost of living is so high that churches with less than an average of 100 attendees will probably not be able to support a full-time pastor. The problem is, bivocational pastors do not generally have the time to spend on those things that help grow a church to 100. It is a vicious circle.


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## kodos (Aug 28, 2014)

KMK said:


> whirlingmerc said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect you will see more pastors with part time jobs in small churches in the future.
> ...



Godly hard working ruling elders help.


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## JML (Aug 28, 2014)

kodos said:


> Last I heard we have more than a few open pulpits in the RPCNA.



Rom,

Where are the open pulpits in the RPCNA?

I am aware of Selma and Northminster. Thanks.


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## KMK (Aug 28, 2014)

kodos said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > whirlingmerc said:
> ...



How about moving to sunny SoCal and becoming a Baptist, Rom! I have a spot for you.


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## JonathanHunt (Aug 28, 2014)

Do these vacant pulpits in confessional presbyterian churches come with liveable salary and expenses? Or are some vacant because churches are not really able to support younger men with families properly?


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## kodos (Aug 28, 2014)

Haha! Funny thing about that Ken - I used to live in SoCal and also used to be a Baptist


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 28, 2014)

KMK said:


> whirlingmerc said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect you will see more pastors with part time jobs in small churches in the future.
> ...



This is very true. The problem with bi-vocational positions in my experience is that they are bi-vocational in salary only. The church still expects the pastor to prepare three sermons/studies per week as well all the other aspects of pastoring a church. Men who take these positions get quickly burnt out working a secular job on top of the full time responsibility of pastoring a church. There would less vacancies at these small churches if the elders and deacons understood that a pastor who also works a secular job needs help with the preaching, teaching, and shepherding rather than just expecting him to do it all on top of a second job.


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## Andres (Aug 28, 2014)

John Lanier said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> > Last I heard we have more than a few open pulpits in the RPCNA.
> ...



Bryan, TX has an opening.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 28, 2014)

Edward said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > not be able to pay it off the way a ... attorney might.
> ...



No intent to slight members of the legal profession. My second son graduated from law school a few years ago and is a partner in a firm. He watched several of his classmates take associate positions in large firms, only to be laid off after a year. I'm painfully aware of the economic pressures on young lawyers.

My point was to compare pastors (national average salary $40,000) with those in professions that have HISTORICALLY paid higher salaries than this. During my time vetting young ordinands (500 or so over 31 years), it was distressing to see more and more of them graduate with huge debts ($100k in one case). One of my younger friends posted on Facebook today that school debts of $130,000 have FINALLY been paid off (in the seminary grad's 40s)!

For the 200+ megachurch pastors in America the last reliable statistics (2010) indicated an average salary of $147,000. That was four years ago and it is doubtless higher today. The pastor of one of my kids just got terminated; he was making $175,000 + benefits. Few on the PB will ever need to deal with those numbers. They will probably fall closer to the national average.


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## kodos (Aug 29, 2014)

John, forgot to get back to you on the list. Andrew is correct - Bryan has a vacancy. Here is the list that was given at Synod:

Covenant RPC - Aurora, OH
Providence - Pittsburgh, PA
Trinity - Beltsville, MD
Coldenham-Newburgh, NY
First Grand Rapids, MI
Hetherton, MI
Northminster RPC, Suwanee, GA
Selma, AL
Sparta RPC, IL
Westminster RPC, Prairie View, IL
Bryan Mission, TX
Quinter RPC, KS
Wichita RPC, KS
Christian Heritage, Endwell, NY
Hudson-St. Lazare, Canada
Rochester RPC, NY

In addition, I believe there are church planting efforts who need church planters. The work in Las Vegas comes to mind. I am not sure what the status of that is. Our very own Pastor Eshelman might be able to give more insight there.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 29, 2014)

There are a lot of ministers looking for positions. But not all ministers are created equal. It has been my observation and experience that ministers who are highly qualified (with "highly qualified" refering to multiple factors) continue to stand out from the crowd and are able to find positions.


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 29, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> Protestant pastor on the job hunt? Good luck in this market - USATODAY.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both are true. There are more ministers than positions AND pastors leave the ministry in droves. How can that be?

To use a bathroom analogy: It's like my bathtub. We have incredible water pressure and (amazingly) the faucet is able to put water into the tub FASTER than our drain will let it out. So even though water is leaving the tub, the tub is still slowly filling. It's a spectacle to behold - and, if I might add, stands as a good example that German engineering isn't necessarily all that its cracked up to be.


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## MichaelNZ (Aug 29, 2014)

How come there is such an abundance of Christian pastors while the Romanists are having a priest shortage?


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## David Pope (Aug 29, 2014)

MichaelNZ said:


> How come there is such an abundance of Christian pastors while the Romanists are having a priest shortage?



Celibacy.


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## One Little Nail (Aug 29, 2014)

MichaelNZ said:


> How come there is such an abundance of Christian pastors while the Romanists are having a priest shortage?



The fact that Protestants can marry is a better job perk, also I've seen a write up of an old Donahue show, 1984? I believe, where it was stated that approx 50% of the RC Priesthood were Sodomites, these days you don't need to hide in a roman prayer closet so with all this societal acceptance they choose not to or have no need to join the *"Holy"* Priesthood.


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## kodos (Aug 29, 2014)

Based upon this list, and that there is a pastor glut in other Protestant denominations - Andrew and I are willing to offer an intensive 4 week brainwashing, uhh, "re-education" course on the Mediatorial Kingship of Christ, The Regulative Principle of Worship, Infant Baptism, and Presbyterian Form of Church Government. 




kodos said:


> John, forgot to get back to you on the list. Andrew is correct - Bryan has a vacancy. Here is the list that was given at Synod:
> 
> Covenant RPC - Aurora, OH
> Providence - Pittsburgh, PA
> ...


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 29, 2014)

Both the OPC and PCA have relatively few openings (for sr. or solo positions, at least: those that involve considerable preaching). 

There are many factors here. The severe economic downturn that began in 2008 has prompted a number of men who would have otherwise retired to remain in the ministry due to their financial situations. The downturn has also impacted many of the churches, which have not been able to offer adequate compensation, particularly smaller ones and those in economically depressed areas. 

Men have continued to train for the ministry, but many are unable to find calls because churches want experienced men and these younger men have no way of gaining such if no one is willing to give it to them. I understand, from one viewpoint, why churches want experienced men, but I also believe that it is unwise for churches, as a number of them do, arbitrarily to insist on such. A congregation does itself and candidates a disservice when it, from the start, requires so many years of experience. There are some very fine young men that this simply rules out, young men who may be as qualified as, and in some cases more qualified than, older men. 

It may well be for many of the smaller churches in our Reformed and Presbyterian denominations that bi-vocational ministry will be required. We are living in difficult times with respect to all of this and nothing on the horizon, it seems to me, promises anything better anytime soon.

Peace,
Alan


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 29, 2014)

You mean the old "church's want a 30-year old man with 30 years experience, 5 kids, and a wife who will be the co-pastor" line eh Dr. Strange.


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 29, 2014)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> You mean the old "church's want a 30-year old man with 30 years experience, 5 kids, and a wife who will be the co-pastor" line eh Dr. Strange.



Don't forget the Ph.D


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 29, 2014)

Something like that Ben G. 

This is something that gets me going. When a church adds to the biblical requirements (understanding different denominations understand such differently: our Covenanter brethren, for instance, would see a principled Psalms-only in worship position as part of bibilcal requirements)--things like "must be married, and such a particular age, with x years of experience"--this hurts the overall church. I believe that when particular congregations rule out men from the start ("the unexperienced in the pastorate need not apply"), that not only hurts the pool of candidates, it hurts that church. Churches sometimes give a pass to a man who is eminently qualified to serve them and instead call an experienced man whose fit for that church is dubious at best. 

Churches should look at the man, whether a licentiate (and many churches will say, unjustifiably in my view, no licentiates need apply, even though presbyteries have said that such are eligible for call), a man with little experience, or a man of years. Experience is important but should be one factor among them all in assessing a man. Some men have much experience and and a careful examination of their experience reveals that they've learned little. I agree that if you have two men of roughly equal natural and spiritual gifts, more experience (that has been sanctified to the candidate) is preferable. But it's overrated in the abstract and churches never do themselves a favor by ruling out whole categories of men from the start. 

And, more importantly, there's no biblical warrant for doing so and when the church places unbiblical criteria on men ("you must be married," "you must have children," "you must have pastored for at least five years") everyone suffers because we are not following God's way as set forth in His Word but our own imagined wisdom. It means that we will have as our pastors some that we should not have and that others that we should have may be excluded. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 29, 2014)

I only had around 18 months between graduating seminary (March 2009) and receiving a call to the church I now pastor (called September 2010, installed December 2010), but I know a lot of men who had a much longer wait. And part of the reason I was able to find a pulpit is that I was willing to relocate 15 hours drive from where the family and I were living and take on a church that had some issues. 

I'm not sure what it is like in the OPC, but my experience in the ARP tells me that a lot of this could be helped by better "training" by the Presbyteries of pastoral nominating committees.


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## Tim (Aug 29, 2014)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I'm not sure what it is like in the OPC, but my experience in the ARP tells me that a lot of this could be helped by better "training" by the Presbyteries of pastoral nominating committees.



Also, what is common regarding the "instruction" of members who will vote for a candidate? Are members ever provided with guidelines for wise voting? I don't have a lot of experience with voting, but I wonder if it is little more than this:

"okay, these men all possess the biblical qualifications for pastor/elder, so now you can vote for whoever you like"


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## SolamVeritatem (Aug 29, 2014)

Pergamum,

Good information on this. I saw the article you posted inside of another article which also contained the following:

Diminishing Job Prospects for Protestant Pastors | May 2, 2014 | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly | PBS

I've enjoyed all of the commentary on this thread thus far. I think there are men on here who have much more godly wisdom and experience than I in this area. As I've thought through this a bit though, there are a couple of things that might be noteworthy to consider:

1. I think that there are other factors that go into the equation of being a pastor or shepherd. I agree with Dr. Strange that there might be an excessive premium placed on pastoral experience and extra-biblical qualifications. But the flip side of that is, some young men straight out of seminary with no experience sometimes find it hard to guard from only seeing the ministry in a theological and academic vacuum, not understanding some other dynamics that make up the pastorate and other practical intangibles.

2. I don't say this just because I'm in the military, but I think it might help stem the tide of unemployment in the pastorate just a tad. I would really encourage young men out of seminary to strongly consider the chaplaincy. At a minimum it has the potential to accomplish two objectives. First, it will give the candidate a good bit of life and ministry experience before they delve into the rigors of pastoral ministry at the local church. Secondly, it may give men some financial stability and an opportunity to save while simultaneously involving themselves with duties and tasks related to the ministry. Let me also say that this does not strictly apply to the military, but there could also be an open door for chaplaincy in the fields of law enforcement, hospitals and college campuses. I'm sure Ben can speak to this much better than I can. Just my two cents. 

In Him,

Craig


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## DMcFadden (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr. Strange nailed so many of the issues.

Younger men, do not look down on your elders for their practical concerns. However, many of them had their careful retirement plans scuttled by the downturn in the market in 2008, eviscerating their 401ks. Considering that the average salary for a Protestant minister in the US is somewhere around $40k, it is understandable that they would feel a need to get their savings to a point that was sustainable. Blessedly, the market rebound has helped immensely in this regard.

Many younger pastors leave seminary saddled with debt and unable to accept calls to some of the smaller congregations unable to afford a reasonable salary.

We PB types pretty much swim in a more academically enriched environment than many of our peers in broad evangelicalism. There are not as many "entry level" associate pastor roles available to get experience under your belt as in some of the evangelical Baptist, charismatic, large Bible church congregations. This also mitigates against congregations accepting the newly minted seminary graduate. In other traditions, many of them will serve their "time" as associate staff in larger congregations in order to obtain the requisite "experience" that congregations crave.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 29, 2014)

SolamVeritatem said:


> But the flip side of that is, some young men straight out of seminary with no experience sometimes find it hard to guard from only seeing the ministry in a theological and academic vacuum, not understanding some other dynamics that make up the pastorate and other practical intangibles.



Craig, 

I strongly agree with you on this. In fact, I can't agree enough. It's just that some, seeing this sort of thing, think that the solution is to require everybody to have had experience and this is just not the right way to handle the problem. The right way is for sessions, pulpit search committees, and congregations to do their jobs more carefully. I also believe that Presbyteries should give congregations without pastors, particularly through their ministerial advisors, more guidance. But many presbyteries don't want to and many congregations don't seek such. 

Also men should consider the chaplaincy not only in the military but in a variety of instuitutions. It is my conviction that every presbytery should have not only regional home missionaries, or the like, helping the church planters, but chaplains serving in the prisons, hospitals, nursing homes, universities, and like societal institutions (including the military), taking the church to these institutions, as it were, and bringing the gospel to some (in the cases of prisons and the like) who cannot go to a church otherwise. Rome and liberal Protestant churches are in these places "ministering." We should be doing the same in and from our Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Let's get a huge chaplain corps in our churches to serve in such places! 

And, if the response is, we don't have the money, I don't think it true for our churches as a whole. We need something like a Sustenation Fund, in which places that have so much could provide for places with little. We have lots of money for the bigger screens and better vacations in many of our churches but not the work of the gospel ministry. If we all gave sacrificially everywhere, the church would be able to do so much more than it has and that it regularly claims it can't do!

Peace,
Alan


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## Fogetaboutit (Aug 29, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Also men should consider the chaplaincy not only in the military but in a variety of instuitutions. It is my conviction that every presbytery should have not only regional home missionaries, or the like, helping the church planters, but chaplains serving in the prisons, hospitals, nursing homes, universities, and like societal institutions (including the military), taking the church to these institutions, as it were, and bringing the gospel to some (in the cases of prisons and the like) who cannot go to a church otherwise. Rome and liberal Protestant churches are in these places "ministering." We should be doing the same in and from our Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Let's get a huge chaplain corps in our churches to serve in such places!
> 
> And, if the response is, we don't have the money, I don't think it true for our churches as a whole. We need something like a Sustenation Fund, in which places that have so much could provide for places with little. We have lots of money for the bigger screens and better vacations in many of our churches but not the work of the gospel ministry. If we all gave sacrificially everywhere, the church would be able to do so much more than it has and that it regularly claims it can't do!



I agree, many donate to para-church organizations (or individuals) who do similar things but do not have to answer to a presbytery, I think it would be much better to give more to our church instead and have those roles managed by faithful confessional presbyteries.


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## Edward (Aug 30, 2014)

Tim said:


> "okay, these men all possess the biblical qualifications for pastor/elder, so now you can vote for whoever you like"



Sounds like a strange practice. I've never seen a situation where the congregation was presented with more than one candidate. 




Alan D. Strange said:


> Men have continued to train for the ministry, but many are unable to find calls because churches want experienced men and these younger men have no way of gaining such if no one is willing to give it to them.



A seminarian shouldn't come out of school with expectations of starting anywhere but at the bottom. The PCA probably has more 'entry level' options than do the smaller denominations - large churches with multiple assistants, RUF, small, rural churches.

And those of us who remember the 60s should recall that not all seminary graduates are called to the ministry. 






David Pope said:


> > Originally Posted by MichaelNZ View Post
> > How come there is such an abundance of Christian pastors while the Romanists are having a priest shortage?
> 
> 
> Celibacy.



They've actually found a work around for that. In Dallas, there are now more permanent deacons than there are priests (putting aside, for the moment, that several of those priests are married). The deacons can do everything except 1) hear confession (and how many Catholics do you know that regularly go to confession these days) and 2) consecrate the elements for mass (although they can do the mass with per-consecrated elements.)


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## Tim (Aug 30, 2014)

Edward said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > "okay, these men all possess the biblical qualifications for pastor/elder, so now you can vote for whoever you like"
> ...



Really? I have. I think my congregation had several men candidate/preach when we had a vacant pulpit.


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## Edward (Aug 30, 2014)

Tim said:


> Really? I have. I think my congregation had several men candidate/preach when we had a vacant pulpit.



While the pulpit was vacant, dozens of men preached, some of whom were candidates and some of whom weren't (and in one instance, the leading candidate declined a proposed call on multiple occasions). And I am sure that the pulpit committee got feedback from the session and key informal leaders. But in the end, the session recommended only one man to the congregation, and he was elected. I've never seen a situation where a congregation was invited to select from a slate of names.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 30, 2014)

Edward said:


> A seminarian shouldn't come out of school with expectations of starting anywhere but at the bottom. The PCA probably has more 'entry level' options than do the smaller denominations - large churches with multiple assistants, RUF, small, rural churches.



Properly, for Presbyterians, there is no "bottom" is there, brother? A man called to be a minister is as much one whether preaching in a little rural church, coming to serve on a large suburban staff, or in an inner-city plant. 

I understand your point, however, and agree with it, that a man should not seek anything but the lowest place of service (not just at the beginning but always). However, to assume, as many do, that a man coming out of seminary, is fresh and green is not at all necessarily true. 

We get men in their thirties and forties (and older!) who come to us for pastoral training and formation, men who've been actively serving in their local churches, often as deacons and elders for some years. When such men graduate, they do not have experience in the pastoral ministry as a TE (to put it in PCA terms) but they are hardly new in church service. 

Many churches will say, nonetheless, "Five years of ministry," still ruling out the 44-year-old former business owner who had served several years as a deacon then an elder, had worked with college/career age, been treasurer, etc. This is part of my complaint, Edward: Churches considering candidates for ministerial calls (of whatever sort) ought not to rule out from the beginning men based on perceived but ultimately arbitrary criteria: "must be married with kids, must have five or ten years experience," etc. Churches should look at qualified candidates (men licensed or ordained) on a personal and individual basis and not refuse to look at man who has not had five years in the pastoral ministry or the like. 

And, Edward, as for your not having seen multiple men put before a congregation for a call (I agree that it is entirely undesirable and unwarranted), it was the traditional practice in many Dutch churches to have men on a duo or trio, as it was called, and the congregation would cast its vote for one of the two or three candidates put before it. That practice has diminished (thankfully) but some have lamented its demise as taking away choice from the congregation. I think that the duo/trio practice is quite misguided but that's another post (and not something of which I need to convince Edward!). 

Peace,
Alan


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## iainduguid (Aug 30, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > And, Edward, as for your not having seen multiple men put before a congregation for a call (I agree that it is entirely undesirable and unwarranted), it was the traditional practice in many Dutch churches to have men on a duo or trio, as it was called, and the congregation would cast its vote for one of the two or three candidates put before it. That practice has diminished (thankfully) but some have lamented its demise as taking away choice from the congregation. I think that the duo/trio practice is quite misguided but that's another post (and not something of which I need to convince Edward!).
> ...


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## Edward (Aug 30, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Many churches will say, nonetheless, "Five years of ministry," still ruling out the 44-year-old former business owner who had served several years as a deacon then an elder,



I would submit that the problem there would not be the requirement of 5 years of ministry, but rather the congregation's leadership's understanding of what constitutes 5 years of ministry. 

I accept your correction of my terminology of 'starting at the bottom'. I seem to have clearly communicated my point, which is good, but through perhaps a not well chosen (nor apt) phrase.


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## Philip (Aug 30, 2014)

A couple of thoughts from someone in seminary, not planning on pursuing ordained ministry:

1) The fact that we require our ministry candidates to have 7+ years of education deserves attention. As one working with (and for) a program to help seminary students stay out of crippling debt, I am saddened that so little is available for students through local churches and presbyteries.

2) It might be helpful for churches with ordinands/candidates in the congregation to go ahead and put them on staff, with a stipend, so that they can help to build their resume.


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## JonathanHunt (Aug 30, 2014)

Just one thought on the frequent demands for a minister 'with experience' ... this will inevitably rob small-to-medium sized churches of their ministers. Occasionally men do become available through providential circumstances, but generally speaking, if you want an experienced man, you have to take him from another body of believers. Which I like not.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 30, 2014)

Philip said:


> A couple of thoughts from someone in seminary, not planning on pursuing ordained ministry:
> 
> 1) The fact that we require our ministry candidates to have 7+ years of education deserves attention. As one working with (and for) a program to help seminary students stay out of crippling debt, I am saddened that so little is available for students through local churches and presbyteries.
> 
> 2) It might be helpful for churches with ordinands/candidates in the congregation to go ahead and put them on staff, with a stipend, so that they can help to build their resume.



I couldn't agree more.

This is a really good conversation all around.

I chair my Presbytery's Leadership Development Committee (formally called the Candidate & Credentialing Committee). We renamed it purposefully because it was our goal to develop leaders for ministry rather than focusing primarily on being the "gate" when the man is through with all his school and preparation and we're examining for orthodoxy.

I know that military leadership is not ministry leadership and one has to be careful about how one applies lessons from one to another but I do believe the military really does a great job of developing leadership and testing men over many years. It gives them substantial training before it grants a certain level of leadership and then continues to develop the individual for years before it grants authority that includes non-judicial and judicial punishment as well as the authority to promote. It actively encourages mentoring and tracks the performance of a leader and his fitness for greater responsibility.

Regardless of whether one agrees with the time some take to develop a leader (at least 15 years before battalion command), there is something to be said that it takes a great deal of time to actively mentor leadership not only in terms of the knowledge that one has but the demonstrated character to lead. We Presbyterians simply do not do enough (as a general rule) to mentor men and even support their ministry. It is to our shame that the Southern Baptists do much more in terms of financially supporting men as they get their MDiv. We usually leave it up to the man to pursue and fund his own education at great expense. 

My Presbytery is very active in collaborating to support missionaries both to the world and to the region and doing what we can with our resources to support men we want to see developed to pursue calls. Our own Church pools with other Churches to pay the not so insignicant amount it takes to support one man being called to a work we want to plant or even adding an Assistant pastor toward the end of grooming him for greater responsibility as he gains some of the knowledge and skills necessary for his own work.

That comes at some cost. Our own Church has been burning through a surplus for the last two years because we planted another Church with a sister Church and the loss of members put us in the red. The cost of rent and properly supporting a Pastor is a lot for a small congregation. It's a lot of commitment when even when you've got a shared vision and resources to expand the Kingdom within your region. A package totaling $80K for the Pastor seems like a lot until one considers the cost of living in NoVA. Furthermore, rent of $2K-$4K per month or more is at the bottom level of what one needs just to have a place to worship. It's not impossible but growth is not rapid and it takes a lot of prayer and pooled resources to make happen.


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## Nate (Aug 30, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> And, Edward, as for your not having seen multiple men put before a congregation for a call (I agree that it is entirely undesirable and unwarranted), it was the traditional practice in many Dutch churches to have men on a duo or trio, as it was called, and the congregation would cast its vote for one of the two or three candidates put before it. That practice has diminished (thankfully) but some have lamented its demise as taking away choice from the congregation. I think that the duo/trio practice is quite misguided but that's another post (and not something of which I need to convince Edward!).
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



The denomination to which I belong still puts forward 3 candidates to the congregation. This seems to work well, but perhaps that is only due to our small size (just over 30 churches in the denomination total). Most pastors and approved seminary graduates are well-known by almost all voting members.

Some observations on how the PRCA interacts with some of the concerns raised in this thread:

To reduce debt incurred in seminary: 
1) a standing synodical committee receives monetary requests from active seminary students based on their need and then distributes funds to these students.
2) congregations of which a seminary student is a member take regular collections which are then delivered to that student.
3) diaconates maintain close contact with seminary students so that further assistance can be delivered if necessary.
4) a private foundation solicits donations and distributes funds to seminary students who submit applications for financial assistance.

To ensure retired pastors are financially stable:
A synod-mandated "emeritus fund" exists. Retired pastors submit requests for financial assistance depending on their needs. (Shouldn't this work even better for larger denominations?)

To familiarize congregations with new seminary graduates and to provide experience:
1) When seminary students have been approved to deliver a "word of edification" within the denomination, seminary students regularly preach at many (not all, but many) churches in the denomination. Depending on when the student is approved, they may preach around to different congregations for up to 2 years before they graduate (the seminary degree is 4 years; this follows a 4-year university degree for which there is also financial assistance). 
2) One semester of the final year in seminary is an intensive internship where the student moves to a congregation with an experienced pastor, and then participates in all aspects of pastoral life, including developing many sermons, learning how to chair council and consistory meetings, and counseling/pastoral work (and everything else).

To ensure that no pastor will have to be bi-vocational:
All congregations that are too small to provide complete financial support for a pastor submit a subsidy request to synod. Synod then delivers the appropriate funds to that congregation so that they may fully support the preaching of the Word. Again, I actually think this would work even better in larger denominations... why is this not the case?

Again, much of this may work so well due to the small size of our denomination and the fact that we only call candidates from a single, small, denomination-run seminary. But I am convinced that much of it is also because congregations are taught how important it is to support the preaching of the Word as much as possible.


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## Andres (Aug 31, 2014)

Fogetaboutit said:


> I agree, many donate to para-church organizations (or individuals) who do similar things but do not have to answer to a presbytery, I think it would be much better to give more to our church instead and have those roles managed by faithful confessional presbyteries.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 31, 2014)

The explosion of the parachurch movement after WWII has become the tail that wags the dog!

Not only have they drained money from congregations, but taken it outside of the context of a worshipping community and the accountability of a local church.

Look at some of the problems that have beset some of the parachurch groups lately. The issues of contextualization, insider movements, removing trinitarian language from translations, etc. would have had a different context if handled by churches/groups of church leaders instead of parachurch structures.

However, even a quick scan at church history will show that the contrast between modality and sodality has a VERY long history in the church. Some argue that Paul's missionary journeys hint at the rise of sodalities rather than a strict reliance on modalities. One of the profs from my seminary days, Ralph D. Winter who went on to help found the US Center for World Mission, argued that modes of modality and sodality are both necessary and will be most effective if they are supportive of one another.

This is an interesting conversation, since there are some who argue that the very existence of seminaries represents disconnected and unaccountable sodalities. Some of the debates over Erskine in recent years would suggest that at least some denominations take the accountability of their seminaries seriously. The bruhaha with the LCMS in the 1970s and the ill-fated schism to the short-lived Seminex, reveals what confessional people sometimes take the orthodoxy of their seminaries very seriously. Unfortunately, I am not aware of those denominations that care about orthodoxy in their schools being as careful to create structures for funding their future pastors so that they can avoid crippling debt.


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## Edward (Aug 31, 2014)

DMcFadden said:


> Look at some of the problems that have beset some of the parachurch groups lately. The issues of contextualization, insider movements, removing trinitarian language from translations, etc. would have had a different context if handled by churches/groups of church leaders instead of parachurch structures.



Yes, and the parachurch Wycliffe seems to have been able to address the concern, once raised, more quickly than did the denominations. So 'different context' doesn't necessarily mean 'better'. 

I would suggest that the rise of the parachurch was a result of the need to fill gaps left by the failure of the churches.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 31, 2014)

Edward said:


> I would suggest that the rise of the parachurch was a result of the need to fill gaps left by the failure of the churches.
> Edward



I agree Edward. With respect to university and college campuses, for instance, the presence of Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, PCUSA, etc. groups on campuses in the post-War era and the comparative absence of evangelical and Reformed churches led to the rise of evangelical para-church groups. I am so grateful for the PCA's Reformed University Fellowship (RUF): taking the PCA to the campus. 


Parachurch mission agencies arose in the late 18th and early 19th centuries both because the churches weren't all sending missionaries as denominations and because it permitted inter-church cooperation. In the 19th century, particularly as part of the Second Great Awakening (which was largely Calvinistic in its early pre-Finney stage), there was significant inter-church cooperation among Protestant evangelical churches in various parachurch missionary and publishing agencies. 

Don't mistake me: I am a vigorous supporter of the church sending missionaries (home and foreign), of publishing Christian materials, of ministering on the campus, in the prison, hospital, military, etc. I can't be too upset, however, when Christians from various churches have banded together to do that in extra-ecclesiastical organizations when the church has refused and/or failed to do it. 

Peace,
Alan


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## bookslover (Aug 31, 2014)

Another problem is that pastoral search committees are not as sagacious as one could wish. I remember, back in the late 1990s, a Presbyterian congregation in the Middle West had five candidates for its pulpit. The church had each one of the five come to spend a week at the church, preaching and getting to know the congregation a little. After all five had done their week, the committee extended a call to the one guy of the five who not only turned them down, he told them he was not even sure he should be in the ministry in the first place! Then, after that, the committee didn't call any of the remaining four, but kicked them all to the curb and started all over again!

I'm glad there'll be no committees in heaven!


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## Bill The Baptist (Sep 1, 2014)

bookslover said:


> I'm glad there'll be no committees in heaven!



 I'm quite sure that hell will be filled with committees.


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## Edward (Sep 1, 2014)

DMcFadden said:


> For the 200+ megachurch pastors in America the last reliable statistics (2010) indicated an average salary of $147,000.



It's a mighty poor megachurch pastor that can't make more pushing (frequently ghostwritten) books than he makes from his call. The TV and radio revenue may go to the pastor or to the church - you would need to look at that on a case-by-case basis. And, of course, there is the question of what that $147,000 contains - -s it the total package (and if so, does it include the value of certain tax benefits?) or is it just base salary?

As for lawyers (I wouldn't re-visit this part of the discussion but for an article published over the weekend that provides data to supplement my opinion) - 7,360 new jobs for lawyers each year 2010 - 2020. Over 13,000 new lawyers churned out a year. Generation of Debt: Debt increases for law students as job prospects fall


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## thistle93 (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi! I think issue in SBC is slightly different. There are tons of SBC churches that are looking for pastors. Yes some are small and require bi-vocational but many with good salaries. Now I am a 37 year old, with a MDiv, 5+ years pastoral ministry experience, a beautiful young family. I should be a prime candidate.
Problem is I am reformed and not dispensational. While the tide is changing that is still a big no-no in the SBC. This limits my possibilities drastically. So I think theological discrimination can be a huge factor for those of us who are reformed in a denomination that is not reformed (even though historically SBC beginnings were solidly reformed). I have been looking for over a year and have got a few glances but in the end nothing to show for it except some extra practice on my preaching. I believe that if I was not-reformed and dispensational, I would have a much easier time finding a church to pastor. I am now considering doing church planting in that may be the only way for me to get back into ministry but that again can be quite a challenge and takes a few years to see results and salary. Anyways God is sovereign over this all but we as His church have made a real mess of the whole process, by using our human standards rather than the standards contained in the Word of God.


For His Glory-
Matthew


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## DMcFadden (Sep 1, 2014)

Edward said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > For the 200+ megachurch pastors in America the last reliable statistics (2010) indicated an average salary of $147,000.
> ...



Base salary, not including benefit package (2010 numbers).


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## Bill The Baptist (Sep 1, 2014)

Edward said:


> It's a mighty poor megachurch pastor that can't make more pushing (frequently ghostwritten) books than he makes from his call.



Yes, and then they will brag to Oprah that they don't take a salary from the church, as if we are supposed to believe they are living in poverty. On a side note, if a pastor who ostensibly went to seminary for multiple years cannot write a simple, short, popular level book by himself, I would seriously question his qualifications to exegete the Word


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