# Jimmy Swaggart



## Amazing Grace (Dec 13, 2007)

I have heard rumors he is moving towards a sovereign grace Gospel. Can they be confirmed? I did hear him teach on Romans 5 and the sin nature. I must say it was very good....


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 13, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> I have heard rumors he is moving towards a sovereign grace Gospel. Can they be confirmed? I did hear him teach on Romans 5 and the sin nature. I must say it was very good....



That would be great news if it was true; I once read that he said John Calvin was the reason why millions of people were in hell.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, his scandalous behaviour in the past bars him from being a preacher.


----------



## sotzo (Dec 13, 2007)

> I once read that he said John Calvin was the reason why millions of people were in hell.



Was this a good / right thing for him to say? 

Doesn't seem to me like this statement from him should be celebrated... unless I've misunderstood?


----------



## Amazing Grace (Dec 13, 2007)

sotzo said:


> > I once read that he said John Calvin was the reason why millions of people were in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think, not reading Daniel brain, that he was just saying he heard this attributed to swag at one point in time in the past.


----------



## Amazing Grace (Dec 13, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard rumors he is moving towards a sovereign grace Gospel. Can they be confirmed? I did hear him teach on Romans 5 and the sin nature. I must say it was very good....
> ...



he mentioned total depravity by name and irresistible grace when I watched this. 

As to you last statement which would spiral this thread quickly, here is a penny change for your 2 cents of opinion. Past behavior in no way could bar one from preaching the good news. How can you even say this when the aposlte Paul was a killer of "the way' Daniel. Then again with your thought process, he should have been stoned and left for dead, so you are right, he would not be preaching today...


----------



## Bygracealone (Dec 13, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > Amazing Grace said:
> ...



Do you not believe a man can be disqualified from his office? The Apostle Paul persecuted Christ's Church before he was converted...

Also, Daniel was simply responding to the possible irony of Swaggart coming to hold the DoG after having such a terrible view of Calvin who's practically the poster child for the DoG. Daniel, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your comment was quite clear to me...


----------



## sotzo (Dec 13, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> sotzo said:
> 
> 
> > > I once read that he said John Calvin was the reason why millions of people were in hell.
> ...



Gotcha...


----------



## Stephen (Dec 13, 2007)

This would certainly be a work of God's grace in his life and something in which to rejoice. I have my doubts but I certainly could be wrong.


----------



## DMcFadden (Dec 13, 2007)

While you are praying for a miracle in the life of Jimmy, don't forget Tim LaHaye, Chuck Smith, and Elmer Towns. When Dave Hunt came out with his attack on Calvinism, they puffed his book, saying:

“Calvinism . . . comes perilously close to blasphemy. And that is why I congratulate Dave Hunt for writing this excellent clarification of the doctrine that has its roots more in Greek humanism, from where it originated, than it does in Scripture . . . Every evangelical minister should read this book. If they did, we would see a mighty revival of soul-winning passion that would turn this world upside down as multitudes see the real God of the Bible, not the false God of Augustinianism and Calvinism.” (Tim LaHaye)

“Dave Hunt has done it again . . . stirred the Christian community into taking a serious look at the aberrant teachings of John Calvin and thoroughly documents his findings. It is a must-read for those who are serious in their desire to understand the influence that Calvin has had and continues to have on the Evangelical church.” (Chuck Smith)

“Dave Hunt has given exact details to show the agonizing faults of Calvinistic abuses that most people have not considered.” (Elmer Towns)


----------



## Josiah (Dec 13, 2007)

Check this Jimmy Swaggart Ministries out. I found something interesting at the bottom of the page.


----------



## DMcFadden (Dec 13, 2007)

Josiah said:


> Check this Jimmy Swaggart Ministries out. I found something interesting at the bottom of the page.



Sure doesn't sound like much of a change to me. A Christian "can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again" and "Salvation is given to the Believer . . . as a gift through the act of Faith"??? I would guess that the "act of faith" refers to my believing based upon my own free will. Hmmmmm.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 13, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > Amazing Grace said:
> ...




If Swaggart had been caught in adultery, by 2 or 3 witnesses, he should - in my opinion - have been executed for committing _a crime_ worthy of death (Hebrews 10:28). Of course it should be remembered that one of the reasons Biblical penology is to be applied is to stop God's wrath falling on the nation, which would ensure the deaths of many more people, and be much more of a "hindrance" to evangelism than executing a handful of adulterers. 

However, once a _minister of the gospel_ commits adultery, then his mouth should be closed as far as preaching is concerned as he is to be "above reproach". What Paul did in persecuting the church, he did as a professed unbeliever, not as a minister of the gospel.


----------



## Josiah (Dec 13, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> > Check this Jimmy Swaggart Ministries out. I found something interesting at the bottom of the page.
> ...



Act of faith = works = 

I was raised AOG and never knew who Swaggert was.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 13, 2007)

sotzo said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > sotzo said:
> ...



That is correct.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 13, 2007)

Let Mr Swaggart speak for himself; here is what he says on the link Josiah provided:



> Q: WHAT IS THE DOCTRINE OF UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY?
> A: The doctrine of unconditional eternal security accepts the Calvinist perspective and states that once a person has been saved and accepts the atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, he can never be lost afterward, no matter what he might do.
> 
> The question to ask is whether a Born-Again Christian can cease being a Born-Again Christian. The answer to this question is, yes, a Believer can stop believing, a Christian can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again. Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).
> ...


----------



## JasonGoodwin (Dec 13, 2007)

Josiah said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > Josiah said:
> ...


I knew who he was back when I was around 8 or 9 years old, and that was long before his scandals.

Let's face it. I know I may be going over the top on this one, but his weeping over the air was a demonstration that he'd been caught -- and not out of genuine contriteness.


----------



## JasonGoodwin (Dec 13, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Let Mr Swaggart speak for himself; here is what he says on the link Josiah provided:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to wonder if this is something that JS has long held to and has recently updated it. It seems to me that he hasn't changed one bit (given the nature of it). Having said that, he easily contradicts himself when it comes to "unconditional eternal security."


----------



## Blueridge Believer (Dec 14, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel Ritchie said:
> ...



What about a preacher that swears an oath in public with cursing that he does not know Jesus Christ? Should he preach again after he has repented? What about a king and a prophet who murders and commits adultery? Should his writings in the scripture that were written after these horrible crimes worthy of death be rejected and removed from the scripture? While it is very difficult for a preacher to recover from sin I can not find a scripture that forever forbids a man from preaching again that has had a gross moral failure.


----------



## Stephen (Dec 14, 2007)

joshua said:


> What does Swaggart believe and teach regarding major doctrines? I know he was formerly Assemby of God.
> 
> The Trinity, etc.?



Jimmy Swaggert does not hold to the trinity (but he is not a oneness Pentecostal) and has other aberrations. He was excommunicated by the AOG, but like so many Charismatics and Pentecostals they can start an independent church and immediately gather a following of koolaide drinking congregants. I believe it was Michael Horton who wrote the Apostles of Deceit over ten years ago. In that book Swaggert's theology was exposed.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 14, 2007)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> What about a preacher that swears an oath in public with cursing that he does not know Jesus Christ? Should he preach again after he has repented? What about a king and a prophet who murders and commits adultery? Should his writings in the scripture that were written after these horrible crimes worthy of death be rejected and removed from the scripture? While it is very difficult for a preacher to recover from sin I can not find a scripture that forever forbids a man from preaching again that has had a gross moral failure.



The first question is a very good point, if he has repented I don't see why not. However, does not adultery rule a man out from being a preacher, as an elder - according to the further revelation of the NT - must be "the husband of one wife" (1 Tim. 3:2)?


----------



## Amazing Grace (Dec 14, 2007)

After reeading all this stuff, the rumor is WAYYYYYYYY OFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Stephen (Dec 14, 2007)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > What about a preacher that swears an oath in public with cursing that he does not know Jesus Christ? Should he preach again after he has repented? What about a king and a prophet who murders and commits adultery? Should his writings in the scripture that were written after these horrible crimes worthy of death be rejected and removed from the scripture? While it is very difficult for a preacher to recover from sin I can not find a scripture that forever forbids a man from preaching again that has had a gross moral failure.
> ...



It is my position that the penal codes for adultery, sodomy, murder, etc. were carried out as part of the civil law under Israel, but I think Daniel is right, a man who has committed adultery, especially numerous times is disqualified from ministry. I think the Scripture is clear that God regards the covenant of marriage as holy. Unfortunetly in the visible church we have not taken that covenant as a serious matter. Jimmy Swaggert never repented and even after his crying spell on televisin he went back to picking up harlots in Baton Rouge. I am surprised his wife did not file for divorce, which she would have the liberty to do.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (Dec 14, 2007)

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > The first question is a very good point, if he has repented I don't see why not. However, does not adultery rule a man out from being a preacher, as an elder - according to the further revelation of the NT - must be "the husband of one wife" (1 Tim. 3:2)?
> ...



I agree with you for the most part brother and I'm not referring to Swaggart. He's a heretic of the worst sort. I'm just not ready to make a blanket judgment on every true preacher of the gospel who has a severe moral failure sometime in his life.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 14, 2007)

Stephen said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > What does Swaggart believe and teach regarding major doctrines? I know he was formerly Assemby of God.
> ...



It was Agony of Deceit and I believe R. C. Sproul exposed Swaggert's heretical interpretation of the Godhead.

Amazon.com: The Agony of Deceit/What Some TV Preachers Are Really Teaching: Books: Michael Horton


----------



## Stephen (Dec 15, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > joshua said:
> ...




You are right, brother. Thanks for the correction. I would recommend the book.


----------



## larryjf (Dec 15, 2007)

Stephen said:


> It is my position that the penal codes for adultery, sodomy, murder, etc. were carried out as part of the civil law under Israel...



Is there a more righteous penal code that other nations should follow than the one that God had set up?

Why would we prefer man-made penal codes as opposed to God-made penal codes? Justice is justice, right?


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Dec 15, 2007)

Stephen said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> > What does Swaggart believe and teach regarding major doctrines? I know he was formerly Assemby of God.
> ...



Excommunicated? Since when did the AOG practice excommunication? I was raised in it and never heard of them excommunicating anyone.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 15, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > joshua said:
> ...




If they don't have church discipline, then they must be an extremely corrupt church. How sad that the privilege of church discipline, which exists for the good of those who do themselves harm, has largely disappeared from the modern church.


----------



## Archlute (Dec 15, 2007)

larryjf said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > It is my position that the penal codes for adultery, sodomy, murder, etc. were carried out as part of the civil law under Israel...
> ...



Read WCF 19.4


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 15, 2007)

Archlute said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen said:
> ...




 This issue has been extensively debated elsewhere. Moreover, it is unfair to just cite WCF 19:4 in favour of one interpretation, when there is considerable historical evidence to the contrary (this may be mistaken, but here is not the place to debate it, anyway in the Protestant faith we believe in Sola Scriptura, not Sola Westminster Confession).


----------



## larryjf (Dec 15, 2007)

Archlute said:


> Read WCF 19.4



I agree that we should not go further than the "general equity" of the OT judicial laws. Which means that we should be obligated in so much as general equity does allow.
So the question becomes, "what does general equity mean?"
the Oxford dictionary defines it as...
"equity of a statute according to its reason and spirit so as to make it apply to cases for which it does not expressly provide."
So the general equity of the OT law regarding putting a fence around the roof of our house would be to put a fence around our swimming pool. So that you have the spirit of the law - stopping folks from becoming injured - is applied to our modern society by keeping folks from falling into our pools instead of keeping folks from falling off of our roofs.

In the context of the Westminster Standards equity would mean "justice"


----------



## JasonGoodwin (Dec 17, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > joshua said:
> ...



I read that book when it came out in 1989. I vividly remember pieces of Walter Martin's chapter "Ye Shall Be as Gods," especially when he pointed out the silly (and obviously heretical) teachings of one Casey Treat from Seattle. At the time, I was quite sickened that I laughed at Treat's treatise that, based on Genesis 1:26, we are "exact duplicates of God."


----------



## Stephen (Dec 18, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > joshua said:
> ...



As far as I know the AOG has always practiced some form of discipline, primarily of its minister's. There is a presbytery of ministers in Springfield, Missouri that deals with cases. Swaggert was given the 2 year suspension from the ministry, but did not want to submit to their discipline, so he either left the AOG or was removed from their denomination.


----------



## Pilgrim (Dec 18, 2007)

joshua said:


> What does Swaggart believe and teach regarding major doctrines? I know he was formerly Assemby of God.
> 
> The Trinity, etc.?



The Assembly of God is trinitarian. Since I am unfamiliar with his views on the trinity I can't comment on what was written above. But he is basically old school pentecostal in his theology and methodology. I believe he left the Assembly of God after he refused to be disciplined following his being caught cavorting with a prostitute. My understanding is that they were wanting to suspend him from the ministry for a time and he refused to submit. 

He has harshly criticized the Word-Faith prosperity teachers for decades and has just as harshly criticized Calvinists. One of the last times I heard him on the radio he stated that preachers who don't have an altar call after the message aren't giving the congregation a chance to respond. I can't remember if he went so far as to say they weren't preaching the gospel if they didn't give an invitation.


----------

