# Mountains Analogy



## Scott

Any good counter-analogies or illustrations that counter the relativistic analogy that religion/faith is like a mountain with many paths that all arrive at the same place? I am lookg for easy, clear responses. 

I like this excerpt from Steve Turner's Creed:


> We believe that all religions are basically
> the same,
> at least the one we read was.
> They all believe in love and goodness.
> They only differ on matters of
> creation sin heaven hell God and salvation.


Humorous illustration of the silliness.


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## RamistThomist

I got this from Manata

Covenant breaker: All roads lead to heaven

Covenant keeper: Christianity says that it is the ONLY way, so you are saying Christianity is wrong, and therefore since it is contradictory you can deduce any premise; like Christianity does not lead to heaven, So by saying ALL raods lead to heaven, you are saying that the Christian road does not lead there, thus contradicting youself.

covenant breaker: Oh, well who cares about the laws of logic anyway.

covenant keeper: O.K. so all roads DO NOT lead to heaven?

covenant breaker: yes they do.

covenant keeper: no they don't

covenant breaker: yes they do. 

covenant keeper: You cannot say that I'm wrong because you don't believe in the laws of logic. You are saying that we both cannot be right. If we both can be right then you have to say that all roads don't lead to heaven. Or you can accept the laws of logic and your still wrong because your statement says that christianity does not lead to heaven, therefore, all roads do not lead to heaven. 
Furhtermore, you have a moral problem, what if my road is the religion of child molestation, then you have to say that that leads to heaven!


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## Vytautas

I do not think there is a contradiction between saying Christianity is wrong with respect to it being the exclusive way to heaven on the one hand and on the other that all roads lead to heaven. You would have to take Christianity is wrong to mean that it is not a way to heaven. But what the keeper said was Christianity is wrong with it saying it is the only way to heaven. The breaker would take it to mean that Christianity is wrong in saying that it is the only way to heaven but it is still a way to heaven.


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## Puddleglum

How can you know that all roads up the mountain lead to the top of the mountain? Only if you can see all the roads - you can only see the road that you're on. To see all the roads, you'd have to be off of the mountain. So since you're on the mountain, you can't know that. And saying that you can know that is making yourself out to be God. 

(According to someone I was talking about this with the other day).


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## MurrayA

The claim that all roads (religions) lead to the same summit (God) is actually a claim to have been to that summit, seen all the various roads converging at the top, and to have then descended to all of us benighted mortals to inform us about this alleged "beatific vision".

So who is being arrogant??

The claim has an air of altruistic humility about it, but such is merely a veneer, indeed a ploy: on one hand to disarm the Christian claims, while on the other setting up his own (relativistic) claims in their place.


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## rmwilliamsjr

there is an interesting quote on the topic that is often requoted in online discussion where the mountain analogy is used:

"œThis is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth"¦ [But] for the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; [and] as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

"“ Robert Jastrow
(God and the Astronomers [New York: W.W. Norton and Co., 1978], 116. Professor Jastrow was the founder of NASA´s Goddard Institute, now director of the Mount Wilson Institute and its observatory.)
source: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/quotes.htm



i got 1,090 hits on googling "he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."


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## JohnV

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Any good counter-analogies or illustrations that counter the relativistic analogy that religion/faith is like a mountain with many paths that all arrive at the same place? I am lookg for easy, clear responses.
> 
> I like this excerpt from Steve Turner's Creed:
> 
> 
> 
> We believe that all religions are basically
> the same,
> at least the one we read was.
> They all believe in love and goodness.
> They only differ on matters of
> creation sin heaven hell God and salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> Humorous illustration of the silliness.
Click to expand...


Actually, Scot, all they have is assertions that they're all headed for the top of the mountain. We have no eye witnesses that they actually got there. 

I sometimes have a lot of confidence that the road that I'm on leads to where I am headed. It is only after my wife has me thoroughly convinced that I'm actually lost that I'll finally admit that I need to ask for directions.


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## MurrayA

It's Gibbon, I think, who observes how in the late Roman period (early C4th onward) there was a mood which regarded all religions as essentially equal:
to the philosophers all equally bad,
to the common people all equally good,
and to the politicians all equally useful.

I find a lot of that mentality around today!
Academics: all bad
Rank and file: all good
Politicians: all (except Christianity) useful


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## rmwilliamsjr

> _Originally posted by MurrayA_
> It's Gibbon, I think, who observes how in the late Roman period (early C4th onward) there was a mood which regarded all religions as essentially equal:
> to the philosophers all equally bad,
> to the common people all equally good,
> and to the politicians all equally useful.
> 
> I find a lot of that mentality around today!
> Academics: all bad
> Rank and file: all good
> Politicians: all (except Christianity) useful



"The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." 
EDWARD GIBBON
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Chapter 2, part I, paragraph I
a copy at: http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/



> I. The policy of the emperors and the senate, as far as it
> concerned religion, was happily seconded by the reflections of
> the enlightened, and by the habits of the superstitious, part of
> their subjects. The various modes of worship, which prevailed in
> the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally
> true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the
> magistrate, as equally useful. And thus toleration produced not
> only mutual indulgence, but even religious concord.



interestingly Paley quotes Gibbon:



> I am willing to accept the account of the matter which is given by Mr. Gibbon: "The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world were all considered by the people as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the magistrate as equally useful:" and I would ask from which of these three classes of men were the Christian missionaries to look for protection or impunity? Could they expect it from the people, "whose acknowledged confidence in the public religion" they subverted from its foundation? From the philosopher, who, "considering all religious as equally false," would of course rank theirs among the number, with the addition of regarding them as busy and troublesome zealots? Or from the magistrate, who, satisfied with the "utility" of the subsisting religion, would not be likely to countenance a spirit of proselytism and innovation:--a system which declared war against every other, and which, if it prevailed, must end in a total rupture of public opinion; an upstart religion, in a word, which was not content with its own authority, but must disgrace all the settled religions of the world? It was not to be imagined that he would endure with patience, that the religion of the emperor and of the state should be calumniated and borne don by a company of superstitious and despicable Jews.


from: http://www.hkshp.org/wclassic/paley-christianity.htm
Evidences Of Christianity
William Paley, D.D.






thanks. nice quote.

[Edited on 3-20-2006 by rmwilliamsjr]


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## Semper Fidelis

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Any good counter-analogies or illustrations that counter the relativistic analogy that religion/faith is like a mountain with many paths that all arrive at the same place? I am lookg for easy, clear responses.
> 
> I like this excerpt from Steve Turner's Creed:
> 
> 
> 
> We believe that all religions are basically
> the same,
> at least the one we read was.
> They all believe in love and goodness.
> They only differ on matters of
> creation sin heaven hell God and salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> Humorous illustration of the silliness.
Click to expand...

I was trying to figure out a simple counter-analogy and it is this:

All religions, except Christianity, are the same. They seek to strike a path up a mountain of self-improvement and build their way to God. When they reach the summit, the clouds clear, and to their horror, they find they have crested Mount Doom.

The Christian receives eyes to see the mountain for what it is: a pit of sin and despair. He cries out to God who says to the helpless: "Believe in my Son!" Christian is rescued from the pit by Christ and is lead on a path away from the pit.


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## Scott

Rich: That is good. Sometimes an analogy like the mountain story is best countered with another analogy. I was thinking of this. After describing the relativist's mountain analogy, saying that is one view. Here is another. There is a mountain with several paths. One is narrow and difficult, but it leads to the top. The other paths are large and well-paved. However even though they go up for awhile, in the end they all descend into a dark, bottomless cave. 

The rhetorical power of the relativist's analogy is not in its logic but in its story-like simplicity. A counter-story helps put things in perspective.


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