# RPW: verbatim Psalms?



## J. Dean (Nov 28, 2011)

Does RPW mandate that the Psalms be sung verbatim as written, or can the words be altered for the sake of rhyme or metric precision?


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 28, 2011)

This addresses some of the issue perhaps.
Faith Presbyterian Church Reformed


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## Romans922 (Nov 28, 2011)

Are you asking if Psalms should be sung in Hebrew?

If you are asking based on english translations, then which translation would you like to choose?


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## Pilgrim (Nov 28, 2011)

What about "Scripture Songs" taken from the Psalms? I've been in some churches that sing some of them (or at least some portion) as written in the KJV. Sometimes it is _a cappella_​ as well.


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## R Harris (Nov 28, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Are you asking if Psalms should be sung in Hebrew?
> 
> If you are asking based on english translations, then which translation would you like to choose?



Exactly. People who use this as an objection to psalm singing have not thought through this. It is exactly the same issue as a Bible translation; if you only feel pure by reading from the original languages, then you are free to do so. Otherwise, find what you feel is the best translation closest to the originals.

The Septuagint is a translation of the OT Hebrew into Greek, and the most staunch Hebrew scholars will find problems with it; yet, even Peter felt it was ok to use the Septuagint in a few OT quotes he used in his epistles.

The "you must sing 'pure' psalms" argument is about the weakest one out there.


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## JP Wallace (Nov 28, 2011)

I think it is important that translated material from the Scriptures not only be as accurate as possible, but also reflect the Scriptural genre, or content type. Thus I think it is really very useful to have the psalms translated into English poetry, because they are meant to be poetic. The really good thing is that the Hebrew poetic form can be maintained in any language as it gets a lot of its poetic value from various types of parallelism.

Since the psalms were given by God to be sung they should be translated in as accurate a way as possible producing songs in the receptor language which in the case of English means meter and rhyme.


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## J. Dean (Nov 29, 2011)

What I'm sasking is whether or not it permitted under RPW to alter the sentence structure of a psalm for the purpose of accommodating and facilitating a better rhythmic and melodic feel so long as it does not change the essential meaning of the intended text?


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## R Harris (Nov 29, 2011)

JP Wallace said:


> I think it is important that translated material from the Scriptures not only be as accurate as possible, but also reflect the Scriptural genre, or content type. Thus I think it is really very useful to have the psalms translated into English poetry, because they are meant to be poetic. The really good thing is that the Hebrew poetic form can be maintained in any language as it gets a lot of its poetic value from various types of parallelism.
> 
> Since the psalms were given by God to be sung they should be translated in as accurate a way as possible producing songs in the receptor language which in the case of English means meter and rhyme.



While I agree completely with this, I think the danger is in getting TOO picky about having what one considers to be the "exactly right wording." As with Bible translations, I think the meaning can be conveyed properly with the words not always being exactly the same.

We do not want to engage in "paralysis by analysis" of the wording so much that we never can agree and then almost end up not singing them at all. I knew of a music director many years ago who objected to one of the translations of a Psalm 118 selection of verses 17-25 from the _Book of Psalms for Singing_ that she did not like, and she altered a few words. Frankly in my opinion I thought she was being very petty, but no matter; that is what she wanted and that is what was sung. That sort of thing is what I have a real problem with.


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## ProtestantBankie (Nov 29, 2011)

The Scottish Psalter is different from the AV Bible book of Psalms if that is what you are asking.
The Scottish Reformed Churches certainly find the singing of the Psalms is permitted and the issue is translation.

So, for example Psalm 100
"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord all ye lands"
becomes
"All people that on earth do dwell, Sing to the Lord with cheerful voice"
but a 2nd version is there also
"O all ye lands unto the Lord, make ye a joyful noise"

The order has been reversed, "what to do / who" to "who/ what to do".


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## Zach (Nov 29, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> What I'm sasking is whether or not it permitted under RPW to alter the sentence structure of a psalm for the purpose of accommodating and facilitating a better rhythmic and melodic feel so long as it does not change the essential meaning of the intended text?



What is the standard that you start with? The original Scottish Psalter? The KJV of the Psalms? The Hebrew Psalter? The Confession of Faith doesn't dictate a manner in which the Psalms are to be sung in Chapter XXI so it's impossible to determine.


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## J. Dean (Nov 29, 2011)

Zach said:


> J. Dean said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm sasking is whether or not it permitted under RPW to alter the sentence structure of a psalm for the purpose of accommodating and facilitating a better rhythmic and melodic feel so long as it does not change the essential meaning of the intended text?
> ...


Aha! That's what I was looking for! Thank you!


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## JP Wallace (Nov 29, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> What I'm sasking is whether or not it permitted under RPW to alter the sentence structure of a psalm for the purpose of accommodating and facilitating a better rhythmic and melodic feel so long as it does not change the essential meaning of the intended text?



Yes I believe we can (i.e that it is permitted) and to a very large extent must change the sentence structure etc. to make the transfer from Hebrew to English - it has to be done often enough in prose never mind poetry. The RPW does not address such specifics (perhaps chapter one of the confessions have something to say to this question) - it is primarily to do with the elemental and foundational principles of what worship is. The RPW demands we worship God in psalms, if that requires amendment of word order and sentence structure (and it does) then this is permissible and within the boundaries of the confession.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 29, 2011)

NaphtaliPress said:


> This addresses some of the issue perhaps.
> Faith Presbyterian Church Reformed



This is a good article. It's summary is very good. Concerning the RPW I would say that we should strive to do our best in understanding the word of God. Whether or not you are EP you have to admit that the RPW does command the singing of God's book of Psalms. This article does answer some of the question in the OP in my estimation. It does a good job discussing translation. Give it a read. 

Here is the last two paragraphs. 



> Here is what the objectors are seemingly trying to say. “You folks are not really singing the words of God. You are just singing the words of man as they understand the words of God to be. And that is the same thing we are doing. When we sing John Wesley or Fanny Crosby or Isaac Watts, we are just singing their interpretation of the word of God. That is all we are doing and that is all you folks are doing when you sing a paraphrase.”
> But the objection breaks down. Even if I were reading the New International Version of the Bible, you would still recognize it as a poor translation of the Word of God. But if I were to stand in the pulpit and read Matthew Henry’s commentary on the same passage, no one would understand that to mean that I was reading the Word of God. That is the difference between singing Isaac Watts and singing even the poorest translation of the Psalms.


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## Zach (Nov 29, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > J. Dean said:
> ...



Glad I could help brother!  I happened to read that chapter on the Lord's Day so it was fresh in my mind.


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