# Birthday Vs. Lord's Day



## Bondman

My (unbelieving) father's birthday party is this coming up Sunday. Is attending a birthday party on the Lord's Day something that the esteemed members of the PB would have trouble doing?


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## Scott Bushey

Bondman said:


> My (unbelieving) father's birthday party is this coming up Sunday. Is attending a birthday party on the Lord's Day something that the esteemed members of the PB would have trouble doing?



Absolutely. Is dad a believer?

~In fact, the title says it all.


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## jaybird0827

I am certainly no esteemed member of the PB or anything close to it, but in answer to your question, I would strictly avoid such gatherings on the Lord's Day.

In our own family you always get to choose whether to celebrate on the Saturday prior or Monday following. Mostly we opt for the latter because it gives us something to look forward to.


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## Croghanite

It is the Lords Day, not your Dads day. I will pray for you good buddy.


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## Herald

Bondman said:


> My (unbelieving) father's birthday party is this coming up Sunday. Is attending a birthday party on the Lord's Day something that the esteemed members of the PB would have trouble doing?



Matthew - it is your father...your family. What better act of compassion can you show on the Lord's Day than to model Christ to family that is unsaved? The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. Go to church on Sunday and then meet with your dad and the rest of your family. Perhaps God will use this in His providence to have an effect on your father for the sake of the gospel.


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## Bondman

I gotta say, I'm torn. Baptist in Crisis makes a good point. It is lawful to do good on the sabbath, and wouldn't a brief visit to my parents' home and imitating Christ there be a good thing? OTOH, if it is, where does that line of thought ever end? Then we have a sort of good intentions test to see what can be done on the sabbath? 

Here is another one for you guys that think that it would not be honoring to God to visit them:

Same situation minus the birthday party. Are visits for the sake of visiting ok? Of course, any time a believer visits an unbeliever, he should be looking for opportunities to preach Christ and steer conversation to things above.

Also, pardon my ignorance and continued questions of this sort. I am newly reformed and my head is spinning with all of the numerous issues that now face me.

Also, jaybird, you actually are one of the esteemed members. Joe, on the other hand, is not.


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## Bandguy

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Matthew - it is your father...your family. What better act of compassion can you show on the Lord's Day than to model Christ to family that is unsaved? The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. Go to church on Sunday and then meet with your dad and the rest of your family. Perhaps God will use this in His providence to have an effect on your father for the sake of the gospel.


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## lv1nothr

As this has come up in the past with us, we've made it clear that we wouldn't attend any b/day parties or any parties on the Lord's Day, and I must say it's been respected and received better than I thought. I guess they see us practicing what we preach. Even had a family member change a niece's b/day party to a different day, now we've been able to attend! Praise God. He honors His Word. 

As for the Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I take that to mean that unless the Lord had given man a day set apart for His worship, we would not of ourselves take one! In other words it is His day not ours.  

I pray the Lord would give you grace to honor your earthly father as you strive to honor your Heavenly Father above all! 

Standing ready to be corrected...


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## Herald

If this was my father (who is also unsaved) and he was having a birthday party, I would go. Knowing that it is the Lord's Day I would not place my father on a pedestal and take glory away from the Lord. I would go to spend time with my family. Trust me people, none of us know when the Lord is going to require our life. God does not need me to bring my father to faith, but I would like to take advantage of each opportunity to model Christ in front of him. 

If it is okay to pull an ox out of the pit on the sabbath is it not even more permissable to rescue a sinner from hell by proclaiming the gospel? And whether that proclaiming is done from the pulpit of a church or the living sofa, I will take advantage of any and all opportunities.


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## Croghanite

bill, 
Do you agree with the WCF?



> Question 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
> 
> Answer. The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, [Exod 20:8,10] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; [Exod 16:25-28; Neh 13:15-22; Jer 17:21-22] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy [Matt 11:1-13]) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: [Isa 58:13; Luke 4:16; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1-2 Ps 92 title; Isa 66:23; Lev 23:3] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day. [Exod 20:8; Exod 16:22,25-26,29; Luke 23:54,56; Neh 13:19][2]





> Question 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
> 
> Answer. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, [Ezek 22:26] all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; [Acts 20:7,9; Ezek 33:30-32; Amos 8:5; Mal 1:13] all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; [Ezek 23:38] *and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations. [Jer 17:24,27; Isa 58:13]*



Mac,
The party will be a gathering of people profaning Gods commandment to keep the Day Holy. To break a commandment in the name of witnessing is no good and its needless to do. Witness on the other 6 days. Tell your dad how much you love him as you explain the great importance of your convictions. Do it BEFORE the party and in person. BTW I am offended and saddened from your esteemed comment...
your the horse and thats me with the stick. I will never stop beating, never.


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## Herald

LAYMAN JOE said:


> bill,
> Do you agree with the WCF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac,
> The party will be a gathering of people profaning Gods commandment to keep the Day Holy. To break a commandment in the name of witnessing is no good and its needless to do. Witness on the other 6 days. Tell your dad how much you love him as you explain the great importance of your convictions. Do it BEFORE the party and in person. BTW I am offended and saddened from your esteemed comment...
> your the horse and thats me with the stick. I will never stop beating, never.



Joe - I do not subscribe to the WCF. I am in basic agreement with the 1689 LBC. The LBC is similar to the WCF in regards to the sabbath. But I err on the side of mercy and compassion. I am not here to defend how I observe the sabbath. Suffice to say that going to someones home for dinner or even a birthday party is not the norm for us on the Lord's Day. Other than that I am going to refrain from further comments. Each man must act in accord with his conscience on the matter and I do not want to be the cause of my brother to stumble.

I will add that there seems to be some tension between Mac and yourself. Since you go to the same church, please settle it and don't do it in here. 

Mac, may the Lord call your father to Himself. May he come to know the peace of God and may that be to your joy.


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## Blueridge Believer

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Matthew - it is your father...your family. What better act of compassion can you show on the Lord's Day than to model Christ to family that is unsaved? The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. Go to church on Sunday and then meet with your dad and the rest of your family. Perhaps God will use this in His providence to have an effect on your father for the sake of the gospel.





Go see your Dad on his birthday and pray for him in love and compassion.


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## jaybird0827

Bondman said:


> ...Also, jaybird, you actually are one of the esteemed members. Joe, on the other hand, is not.


 
 

Your kind words toward me notwithstanding, have you given any consideration to the latter comment in the light of such passages as [KJV]Ephesians 4:29[/KJV] and others that may apply?


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## VirginiaHuguenot

jaybird0827 said:


> I am certainly no esteemed member of the PB or anything close to it, but in answer to your question, I would strictly avoid such gatherings on the Lord's Day.
> 
> In our own family you always get to choose whether to celebrate on the Saturday prior or Monday following. Mostly we opt for the latter because it gives us something to look forward to.


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## LadyFlynt

Bondman said:


> Also, jaybird, you actually are one of the esteemed members. Joe, on the other hand, is not.



Uhm, I don't know if this was intentional or not...but it came across as an insult. (Giving you a chance here...I know I've been taken wrong other places)


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## ChristopherPaul

It seems to be the norm that anytime a discussion is started about obeying God’s Holy Law, people get up in arms and insist that exceptions must be made for the sake of witnessing and loving our neighbor.

Is not God’s way perfect? Out of gratitude we obey Him; out of a love for Him, we obey. We don’t short change our LORD for the sake of our efforts to further HIS kingdom. His kingdom will be furthered by the witness of His people showing their love by obeying His commands. 

Brother, you have six days to meet with your dad and shoot the breeze as they say with family members. From those six days, 313 days per year, he should be able to see how deeply you love God and you should communicate that that love goes so far that you will not depart from God’s Holy standards even for a birthday party. He should understand, if he doesn’t pray for Him and keep the Lord’s day set apart as Holy. By all means visit and talk with the church, but idle words and worldly chatter will most likely be rampant. God’s way is perfect – keep that in mind and communicate that to your dad. If it is that important to him that you be there, he should have no problem rescheduling the party for the Saturday before or another weekend. 

Don’t send the message to him that your God’s Holy image can be compromised.


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## Kevin

I think my Baptist brothers are right on this one. 

I was reading the gospel of John last night to the children and the passage was the healing of the man born blind. This led in our disscusion time to some talk about the sabbath and how Christ's view differed from the Jews. So this has been on my mind this morning.

Let me just say that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. This is not about "shooting the breeze" with your dad or "witnessing" both of which, as was pointed out above can be done on other days, this is about showing him Honour & Respect. In my humble opinion that is certainly activity for the Sabbath.


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## Blueridge Believer

Kevin said:


> I think my Baptist brothers are right on this one.
> 
> I was reading the gospel of John last night to the children and the passage was the healing of the man born blind. This led in our disscusion time to some talk about the sabbath and how Christ's view differed from the Jews. So this has been on my mind this morning.
> 
> Let me just say that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. This is not about "shooting the breeze" with your dad or "witnessing" both of which, as was pointed out above can be done on other days, this is about showing him Honour & Respect. In my humble opinion that is certainly activity for the Sabbath.



Isn't there some kind of commandment about honoring your father and mother?


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## polemic_turtle

LadyFlynt said:


> Uhm, I don't know if this was intentional or not...but it came across as an insult. (Giving you a chance here...I know I've been taken wrong other places)



This is friendly horseplay if I've ever seen any. In the Joe's first response, he said "I will pray for you good buddy." After that, when Mac said the shocking words, he put a waving smiley face, as if to say, "I know your opinion, Joe, good pal.." After that, Joe really brought a smile to my face when he said "BTW I am offended and saddened from your esteemed comment... your the horse and thats me with the stick. I will never stop beating, never.  "

Oh, hehe.. That's funny. "I will never stop beating, never." BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM...

I don't think any true animosity has been expressed here.


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## LadyFlynt

Obey God rather than man. I believe in honoring parents...but I also believe in honoring God. The sabbath is supposed to be for....


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## LadyFlynt

polemic_turtle said:


> This is friendly horseplay if I've ever seen any. In the Joe's first response, he said "I will pray for you good buddy." After that, when Mac said the shocking words, he put a waving smiley face, as if to say, "I know your opinion, Joe, good pal.." After that, Joe really brought a smile to my face when he said "BTW I am offended and saddened from your esteemed comment... your the horse and thats me with the stick. I will never stop beating, never.  "
> 
> Oh, hehe.. That's funny. "I will never stop beating, never." BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM...
> 
> I don't think any true animosity has been expressed here.



okay...the smiley is why I was willing to err toward the positive.


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## Herald

I sure hope it was horesplay too. That is the problem with message boards. Hard to always convey the correction emotions.

Looks like we have an even split here on our opinions regarding the sabbath. Baptists on one side and Presbyterians on the other. You'd think this was a credo-paedo thread!  

Actually the issue is serious but we come down on opposite sides. We should continue to strive for the truth even when we disagree.


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## ChristopherPaul

Blueridge reformer said:


> Isn't there some kind of commandment about honoring your father and mother?




Funny how the clear reading of the fifth commandment is sited against the clear reading of the fourth commandment.


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## ChristopherPaul

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Actually the issue is serious but we come down on opposite sides. We should continue to strive for the truth even when we disagree.



Yes a division is apparent. 

So for those who take exception to the WCF and the LBCF on the 4th commandment, do you think attending a secular birthday party is sinful to those who do not take exception to the confessions?


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## Blueridge Believer

ChristopherPaul said:


> Yes a division is apparent.
> 
> So for those who take exception to the WCF and the LBCF on the 4th commandment, do you think attending a secular birthday party is sinful to those who do not take exception to the confessions?



I don't think anyone here would try to bind your conscience brother. I believe Romans 14 would cover this. If it's sin to you don't do it.


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## ChristopherPaul

Blueridge reformer said:


> I don't think anyone here would try to bind your conscience brother. I believe Romans 14 would cover this. If it's sin to you don't do it.




But of course. My point is there are two views on the fourth commandment. What Matthew needs to resolve is his interpretation of the fourth commandment.

Matthew, do you take exception to the confessions on this point?


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## gwine

ChristopherPaul said:


> Funny how the clear reading of the fifth commandment is sited against the clear reading of the fourth commandment.


And what does a clear reading say?


> Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
> Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
> Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Do no work. Don't let anyone in your family work. Keep the Sabbath holy. Nothing about getting together with family.
So let's check out Isaiah.


> Isa 58:13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;
> Isa 58:14 then you shall take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


Don't go your own way. (Reminds me of a Fleetwood Mac song) Don't seek your own pleasure. Don't talk idly. We can get in more trouble here.

Well, I might be Presbyterian, but I would still go. I would love to have the chance to get together again with my family and honor my father on his birthday, but he is dead and gone. Granted, family is temporal and heaven is forever, but how you treat your family does have its consequences.


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## Herald

ChristopherPaul said:


> Yes a division is apparent.
> 
> So for those who take exception to the WCF and the LBCF on the 4th commandment, do you think attending a secular birthday party is sinful to those who do not take exception to the confessions?



No, I do not believe you (as a WCF'er) would be sinning. Your conscience is convinced that attending such affairs is sinful. Don't attend them.


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## LadyFlynt

Gerry, can we take another twist to this "it's about family" and consequences thing? What if it's your kid brother's state football championship? Go to it? Because you know it's a "once in a lifetime thing". 

Seriously, this was an issue I have seen twice. Once in my own life (at the time sports was a forbidden activity altogether by the church...please don't go there, history) and once I've seen in another couple's life where a woman let me know that they are rarely at church at certain times of the year because her boys played xxxx and her hubby felt that was important as a family.


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## Kevin

(with Gerry, Y'all are posting to fast for me ;-) )


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## ChristopherPaul

gwine said:


> And what does a clear reading say?
> 
> Do no work. Don't let anyone in your family work. Keep the Sabbath holy. Nothing about getting together with family.
> So let's check out Isaiah.
> 
> Don't go your own way. (Reminds me of a Fleetwood Mac song) Don't seek your own pleasure. Don't talk idly. We can get in more trouble here.
> 
> Well, I might be Presbyterian, but I would still go. I would love to have the chance to get together again with my family and honor my father on his birthday, but he is dead and gone. Granted, family is temporal and heaven is forever, but how you treat your family does have its consequences.



The fifth commandment trumps the fourth? Dad and God can share?


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## Herald

LadyFlynt said:


> Gerry, can we take another twist to this "it's about family" and consequences thing? What if it's your kid brother's state football championship? Go to it? Because you know it's a "once in a lifetime thing".
> 
> Seriously, this was an issue I have seen twice. Once in my own life (at the time sports was a forbidden activity altogether by the church...please don't go there, history) and once I've seen in another couple's life where a woman let me know that they are rarely at church at certain times of the year because her boys played xxxx and her hubby felt that was important as a family.



Colleen, we can all play "what if's". This is not about that. This is about: A. Honoring your father and mother B. Proclaiming the gospel to the lost. Mac's extended family may see it as a day to party, but what if Mac views it as A and B? I can handle your disagreeing on it from a sabbatarian point of view. I just think "what if's" don't help the discussion.


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## Kevin

ChristopherPaul said:


> The fifth commandment trumps the fourth? Dad and God can share?



Chris, let me ask it this way. If your father lived with you, next door, whatever, would you consider sitting with him on a sunday afternoon? Would you talk to members of your own family on the Lords day?

I honestly can not imagine what the sabbath is like in someones house who thinks visiting and talking with you immediate family (!) is a violation of the Lords day.


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## Kevin

LadyFlynt said:


> Gerry, can we take another twist to this "it's about family" and consequences thing? What if it's your kid brother's state football championship? Go to it? Because you know it's a "once in a lifetime thing".
> 
> Seriously, this was an issue I have seen twice. Once in my own life (at the time sports was a forbidden activity altogether by the church...please don't go there, history) and once I've seen in another couple's life where a woman let me know that they are rarely at church at certain times of the year because her boys played xxxx and her hubby felt that was important as a family.



Apples and oranges.


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## Herald

Kevin said:


> Apples and oranges.



Kevin - I'm sorry but you can't eat an apple and an orange on the sabbath. That would be mixing fruit and I'm sure there is a prohibition against that somewhere!


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## ChristopherPaul

Kevin said:


> Chris, let me ask it this way. If your father lived with you, next door, whatever, would you consider sitting with him on a sunday afternoon? Would you talk to members of your own family on the Lords day?
> 
> I honestly can not imagine what the sabbath is like in someones house who thinks visiting and talking with you immediate family (!) is a violation of the Lords day.




IF my father lived with me or next door, whatever, yes I would consider sitting with him on a Sunday afternoon. Yes I would talk to members of my own family.

Would I celebrate a birthday (my own, my dads, my daughters, etc.)? No.


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## Croghanite

*Everyone*

Bondman and I are very very good friends and cousins I might add. We were only kidding with one another. Sorry about the confusion.


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## Herald

How fine can we split the hair on this thread? How about if my father was having a birthday party but I chose not to celebrate the party? All I want to do is talk to my father so I ignore the party. My goodness! We can come up with a list of do's and don'ts for the Sabbath and be like the Pharisees. I don't think the matter is as black and white as some of my friends here on the PB are making it out to be.


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## Herald

LAYMAN JOE said:


> Bondman and I are very very good friends and cousins I might add. We were only kidding with one another. Sorry about the confusion.



Joe - good! I'm sorry if I raised an alarm. My apologies.


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## Kevin

ChristopherPaul said:


> IF my father lived with me or next door, whatever, yes I would consider sitting with him on a Sunday afternoon. Yes I would talk to members of my own family.
> 
> Would I celebrate a birthday (my own, my dads, my daughters, etc.)? No.



Why not just sit there then and let him "celebrate"?

Is "celebrating" an action? Or a state of mind (an emotion)?

I don't know what everyone else does at b-day parties but the ones we have are nothing like work. It would be just sitting down to a good meal with a few extra people and a better bottle of vino .

If pinning the tale on the donkey is too much like work, take a page (literally) from Joey Pipa's book and make it into a bible game. You know kinda like "pin the tale on Balaam's ass".


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## LadyFlynt

Bill and Chris...though from two angles...you both hit the point.

Bill, that is my point...we could play "what ifs" all day long. This thread, though a real situation, is a what if with all the "buts" included. Honestly, what witnessing is a person truely going to do at a birthday party? Is he really going to sit there and give his dad the gospel or rather to the point, is his dad and extended family really going to sit there and listen. More than likely they will be busy laughing and having a Party as that is the intent of getting together...not merely spending time in discussion.

Chris, I think you nailed it.


"Witnessing" is often times used as an excuse to compromise where a person really has no intent of witnessing (and no, I'm not presuming this is what the OP is thinking...generally speaking here). I've seen one person refuse his F and SM to stay at their house because of a "sin" he sees in their life. Yet the same person will stay at his IL's house, though committing the same "sin". The excuse is "well, we're witnessing to them".


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## Blueridge Believer

Kevin said:


> Why not just sit there then and let him "celebrate"?
> 
> Is "celebrating" an action? Or a state of mind (an emotion)?
> 
> I don't know what everyone else does at b-day parties but the ones we have are nothing like work. It would be just sitting down to a good meal with a few extra people and a better bottle of vino .
> 
> If pinning the tale on the donkey is too much like work, take a page (literally) from Joey Pipa's book and make it into a bible game. You know kinda like "pin the tale on Balaam's ass".



Please invite me to your next birthday party!


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## Herald

Kevin said:


> If pinning the tale on the donkey is too much like work, take a page (literally) from Joey Pipa's book and make it into a bible game. You know kinda like "pin the tale on Balaam's ass".


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## Kevin

BaptistInCrisis said:


> How fine can we split the hair on this thread? How about if my father was having a birthday party but I chose not to celebrate the party? All I want to do is talk to my father so I ignore the party. My goodness! We can come up with a list of do's and don'ts for the Sabbath and be like the Pharisees. I don't think the matter is as black and white as some of my friends here on the PB are making it out to be.



OK, I think I have it.

I can vist my dad on Sunday.

I can eat lunch with him. 

I can talk with him.

I can eat dessert with him.

BUT if there is a candel on the cake I am violating the Lords day?


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## LadyFlynt

Kevin said:


> Why not just sit there then and let him "celebrate"?
> 
> Is "celebrating" an action? Or a state of mind (an emotion)?
> 
> I don't know what everyone else does at b-day parties but the ones we have are nothing like work. It would be just sitting down to a good meal with a few extra people and a better bottle of vino .
> 
> If pinning the tale on the donkey is too much like work, take a page (literally) from Joey Pipa's book and make it into a bible game. You know kinda like "pin the tale on Balaam's ass".



Wonder if it depends on the family. Some of my family likes to push the envelope if they know there are certain things you won't do on the Sabbath.


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## Herald

LadyFlynt said:


> Bill and Chris...though from two angles...you both hit the point.
> 
> Bill, that is my point...we could play "what ifs" all day long. This thread, though a real situation, is a what if with all the "buts" included. Honestly, what witnessing is a person truely going to do at a birthday party? Is he really going to sit there and give his dad the gospel or rather to the point, is his dad and extended family really going to sit there and listen. More than likely they will be busy laughing and having a Party as that is the intent of getting together...not merely spending time in discussion.



Colleen - with all due respect, how do you know what the party is going to be like? It may be a quiet affair with family just kibitzing. That is what my last birthday was like. Nice dinner and visiting with family and friends. In fact, oft times you may see people at family gatherings that you normally do not. This is a perfect time to talk to them. But here we go again. Your characterization of a birthday party is a "what if." My more pedestrian birthday party is a "what if" also. No one knows until you get there.


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## ChristopherPaul

God is central on all days, but our attention is by necessity distracted due to obligations pertaining to life. His people are graced with a day set apart from all others, so that we can rest from worldly distractions and spend one day out of seven with all attention on the public and private worship of God (which we as disciples embrace – or should). Birthday celebrations, no matter how they are conducted are centering focus on a carnal event which like the other six days restrains us from devoting our private and public attention to the worship of God. 

This one day out of seven frees us so we can do what we desire to do all week, but cannot because of worldly obligations and distractions. If we could only be so free to focus all attention on God the other 6 days of the week, but we can’t. we must wait until glory for such to come, but until then we are graced with a taste of glory one day a week which is set apart for God and God alone.


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## Herald

Kevin said:


> OK, I think I have it.
> 
> I can vist my dad on Sunday.
> 
> I can eat lunch with him.
> 
> I can talk with him.
> 
> I can eat dessert with him.
> 
> BUT if there is a candel on the cake I am violating the Lords day?



Kevin - UNLESS the candle is there to present the cake as a burnt offering.


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## NaphtaliPress

I do think it depends upon the nature of the birthday observance as much as anything. But I also think most of us know our relatives enough to know what kind of event it will be and whether we should go or not. I do, and I generally do not go, particularly when the celebration is moved to the Lord's day _because _everyone's busy schedule duing the week prevented the observance on the person's actual birthday!



BaptistInCrisis said:


> Colleen - with all due respect, how do you know what the party is going to be like? It may be a quiet affair with family just kibitzing. That is what my last birthday was like. Nice dinner and visiting with family and friends. In fact, oft times you may see people at family gatherings that you normally do not. This is a perfect time to talk to them. But here we go again. Your characterization of a birthday party is a "what if." My more pedestrian birthday party is a "what if" also. No one knows until you get there.


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## Herald

ChristopherPaul said:


> God is central on all days, but our attention is by necessity distracted due to obligations pertaining to life. His people are graced with a day set apart from all others, so that we can rest from worldly distractions and spend one day out of seven with all attention on the public and private worship of God (which we as disciples embrace – or should). Birthday celebrations, no matter how they are conducted are centering focus on a carnal event which like the other six days restrains us from devoting our private and public attention to the worship of God.
> 
> This one day out of seven frees us so we can do what we desire to do all week, but cannot because of worldly obligations and distractions. If we could only be so free to focus all attention on God the other 6 days of the week, but we can’t. we must wait until glory for such to come, but until then we are graced with a taste of glory one day a week which is set apart for God and God alone.



Chris - okay....THAT explanation I can handle because it comes down strictly on your sabbatarian view. I disagree with you but I can appreciate your comments. We'll just agree to separate on this issue and pray the Lord gives us a better understanding in the event we are in error.


----------



## Kevin

Keeping a commandment on the Lords day can Not be a violation of the fourth commandment. I think we all agree on this. 

The dispute (it seems to me) centres on is this; does the fact that your fathers b-day falls on the Lords day mean you must not engage in activities that would otherwise be lawfull on the Sabbath. (i.e. eating, talking, visiting)

Is this a fair statement?


----------



## Kevin

NaphtaliPress said:


> I do think it depends upon the nature of the birthday observance as much as anything. But I also think most of us know our relatives enough to know what kind of event it will be and whether we should go or not. I do, and I generally do not go, particularly when the celebration is moved to the Lord's day _because _everyone's busy schedule duing the week prevented the observance on the person's actual birthday!



Good point!


----------



## Croghanite

ChristopherPaul said:


> God is central on all days, but our attention is by necessity distracted due to obligations pertaining to life. His people are graced with a day set apart from all others, so that we can rest from worldly distractions and spend one day out of seven with all attention on the public and private worship of God (which we as disciples embrace – or should). Birthday celebrations, no matter how they are conducted are centering focus on a carnal event which like the other six days restrains us from devoting our private and public attention to the worship of God.
> 
> This one day out of seven frees us so we can do what we desire to do all week, but cannot because of worldly obligations and distractions. If we could only be so free to focus all attention on God the other 6 days of the week, but we can’t. we must wait until glory for such to come, but until then we are graced with a taste of glory one day a week which is set apart for God and God alone.



 The Sabbath is the one day when ALL our attention must be directed toward God.


----------



## LadyFlynt

Bill, good points...that is why I added that it may depend on the family. I honestly don't know what an event like this entails for his family. If it were my extended family, they would make a big heydo that totally detracts the Lord from the day altogether. If it is just our immediate family, we have a pan of brownies after supper, the end. Hubby's family is somewhere in the middle.


----------



## gwine

LadyFlynt said:


> Gerry, can we take another twist to this "it's about family" and consequences thing? What if it's your kid brother's state football championship? Go to it? Because you know it's a "once in a lifetime thing".
> 
> Seriously, this was an issue I have seen twice. Once in my own life (at the time sports was a forbidden activity altogether by the church...please don't go there, history) and once I've seen in another couple's life where a woman let me know that they are rarely at church at certain times of the year because her boys played xxxx and her hubby felt that was important as a family.



To answer your first question, I would rather not. I see a difference between playing xxxx on Sunday morning (or going fishing on Sunday morning or entering your dog in a show that is on Sunday) and visiting my father on Sunday afternoon. Again I am outside my league. You all just carry on. I'll check in later.

I may have to join the Baptists.


----------



## gwine

ChristopherPaul said:


> The fifth commandment trumps the fourth? Dad and God can share?


No. The 4th is part of the first table and is part of the greatest commandment. The 5th is part of the second table and, while like the first, is not called the greatest so it must be below it in importance.


> Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
> Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
> Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
> Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
> Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."


----------



## NaphtaliPress

gwine said:


> No. The 4th is part of the first table and is part of the greatest commandment. The 5th is part of the second table and, while like the first, is not called the greatest so it must be below it in importance.



Both tables are perptual moral commandments. Rather, Rule 5 of WLC 99.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the ten commandments? 

(5) That, what God forbids, is at no time to be done; (w) what he commands, is always our duty, (x) yet every particular duty is not to be done at all times. (y)


----------



## Croghanite

I cant picture God being pleased with people gathering together to honour a man (believer or non- believer) on the day that God sanctified unto Himself. 
God is a jealous God.


----------



## Me Died Blue

Kevin said:


> Apples and oranges.



How so? Of course neither fellowship nor speech are in and of themselves sinful activities in which to engage on the Lord's Day. But the key issue is what _*type*_ of fellowship and speech goes on, what what is done and discussed during that time. If one is to draw _any_ consistent line whatsoever anywhere in-between something like a football game and, say, a discussion on life, marriage or the Word over dinner with one's children, one must define certain types of fellowship and discussion as biblical on the Lord's Day, and other types as unbiblical.

I would not even call any and all _birthday celebrations_ necessarily sinful in and of themselves on the Lord's Day. It could possibly done in the total context of a loose family worship type of setting, with a decided focus toward thanking God for His gifts of life, family, children, parents and fellowship. But as Christopher noted well above, a typical birthday party held by an unbeliever will be a far cry from that, and in many ways the type of discussion and activity present would most likely be non-differentiable in principle from that at a sports game.

Furthermore, _of course_ Matthew himself could try to individually make his own contributions to the fellowship and discussion consist of a healthy, God-centered focus on life and family, but the vast majority of most people's focus and the discussion which would continually abide would _not_ be God-centered in that way, and as such he would most likely be surrounded by _unbiblical_ practice and discussion on the Lord's Day. It would likely be somewhat similar (again, non-differentiable _in principle_) to going to an unbelieving nephew's college football game on the Lord's Day, hoping oneself to only discuss and focus on God-centered things with the rest of the people, despite what they came there to do. In such a case, do you think such things would _really_ become the sole focus of the outing? Hardly.

Apples and oranges? Not really.


----------



## Croghanite

My dad asks me to go to NFL games with him often. It would honour him if I were to go. When I deny his request, I am sure he is somewhat sad when he hangs up the phone. I have a choice to either honour man or God. I can make up tons of excuses why it would be ok to go, but it is not. No more excuses.


----------



## jaybird0827

Me Died Blue said:


> How so? Of course neither fellowship nor speech are in and of themselves sinful activities in which to engage on the Lord's Day. But the key issue is what _*type*_ of fellowship and speech goes on, what what is done and discussed during that time. If one is to draw _any_ consistent line whatsoever anywhere in-between something like a football game and, say, a discussion on life, marriage or the Word over dinner with one's children, one must define certain types of fellowship and discussion as biblical on the Lord's Day, and other types as unbiblical.
> 
> I would not even call any and all _birthday celebrations_ necessarily sinful in and of themselves on the Lord's Day. It could possibly done in the total context of a loose family worship type of setting, with a decided focus toward thanking God for His gifts of life, family, children, parents and fellowship. But as Christopher noted well above, a typical birthday party held by an unbeliever will be a far cry from that, and in many ways the type of discussion and activity present would most likely be non-differentiable in principle from that at a sports game.
> 
> Furthermore, _of course_ Matthew himself could try to individually make his own contributions to the fellowship and discussion consist of a healthy, God-centered focus on life and family, but the vast majority of most people's focus and the discussion which would continually abide would _not_ be God-centered in that way, and as such he would most likely be surrounded by _unbiblical_ practice and discussion on the Lord's Day. It would likely be somewhat similar (again, non-differentiable _in principle_) to going to an unbelieving nephew's college football game on the Lord's Day, hoping oneself to only discuss and focus on God-centered things with the rest of the people, despite what they came there to do. In such a case, do you think such things would _really_ become the sole focus of the outing? Hardly.
> 
> Apples and oranges? Not really.


 
 

I think this articulates the most or all of the issues that must be considered.


----------



## Calvibaptist

So, here is the problem:

1) We have quoted the Scripture

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

2) Although we forgot Jesus' comments on the Sabbath

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Mark 2:27-28 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." 

3) We have quoted the WCF (or LBC) on the Sabbath

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.

4) Not one of these mentions a birthday party. Although some might argue that "worldly employments and recreations" would include a birthday party, I could also argue that driving a car, taking a shower, eating a meal, watching tv, listening to the radio while driving a car, and any other thing that one might do any other day of the week would also fall in that very general category.

What is the answer? Neither legalism (making a new law that you can't go to the birthday party) nor antinomianism (saying that it doesn't matter what you do on Sunday). Rather we should all take the instruction of Paul from Romans 14:

Romans 14:4-6 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.


----------



## gwine

LAYMAN JOE said:


> My dad asks me to go to NFL games with him often. It would honour him if I were to go. When I deny his request, I am sure he is somewhat sad when he hangs up the phone. I have a choice to either honour man or God. I can make up tons of excuses why it would be ok to go, but it is not. No more excuses.


I agree with your reasoning concerning NFL games, assuming you are referring only to those games that are held on Sunday.


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## ChristopherPaul

gwine said:


> No. The 4th is part of the first table and is part of the greatest commandment. The 5th is part of the second table and, while like the first, is not called the greatest so it must be below it in importance.




?

Children, obey your parents *in the Lord*, for this is right (Ephesians 6:1).

Would you honor your dad if he asked you to skip church for a football game or to give false testimony, or steal, or to worship a false god?


----------



## gwine

ChristopherPaul said:


> ?
> 
> Children, obey your parents *in the Lord*, for this is right (Ephesians 6:1).
> 
> Would you honor your dad if he asked you to skip church for a football game or to give false testimony, or steal, or to worship a false god?


I never suggested that. Please don't read so much into what I wrote or quoted from Scripture. My calling the second table of the law of lesser importance than the first is what Christ did, unless I misunderstand Matthew 22.


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## ChristopherPaul

gwine said:


> I never suggested that. Please don't read so much into what I wrote or quoted from Scripture. My calling the second table of the law of lesser importance than the first is what Christ did, unless I misunderstand Matthew 22.



I know you do not think this, but having two different tables does not mean we can violate one command in order to obey another. You said “how you treat your family does have its consequences.” So what does that mean? You should violate the fourth commandment for the sake of the fifth? I don’t think you would be saying this, but I don’t know what else you could be saying.


----------



## Herald

Calvibaptist said:


> So, here is the problem:
> 
> 1) We have quoted the Scripture
> 
> Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
> 
> 2) Although we forgot Jesus' comments on the Sabbath
> 
> Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
> 
> Mark 2:27-28 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
> 
> 3) We have quoted the WCF (or LBC) on the Sabbath
> 
> VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
> 
> 4) Not one of these mentions a birthday party. Although some might argue that "worldly employments and recreations" would include a birthday party, I could also argue that driving a car, taking a shower, eating a meal, watching tv, listening to the radio while driving a car, and any other thing that one might do any other day of the week would also fall in that very general category.
> 
> What is the answer? Neither legalism (making a new law that you can't go to the birthday party) nor antinomianism (saying that it doesn't matter what you do on Sunday). Rather we should all take the instruction of Paul from Romans 14:
> 
> Romans 14:4-6 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.



I'd say "good post" but I would be guilty of a form of nepotism seeing that you are the pastor of my church.


----------



## gwine

ChristopherPaul said:


> I know you do not think this, but having two different tables does not mean we can violate one command in order to obey another.


Right. However, since our duty to God overrides our duty to man, the first table is elevated above the second. I really don't think that in obeying the first table we would ever have to disobey the second. God did not give us commandments that contradict each other. 


> You said “how you treat your family does have its consequences.” So what does that mean? You should violate the fourth commandment for the sake of the fifth? I don’t think you would be saying this, but I don’t know what else you could be saying.


It means exactly what I say it means. If you don't take care of your family and you don't honor your father and your mother, you will incur the judgment of God. For example:


> Mark 7:9And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)[d]-- 12then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.





> Exodus 20:12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.





> I Timothy 5:8But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


No where did I suggest that you would need to disobey God in order to keep another one of his commands.


----------



## gwine

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I'd say "good post" but I would be guilty of a form of nepotism seeing that you are the pastor of my church.


Only if you are related to him.


----------



## ChristopherPaul

gwine said:


> Right. However, since our duty to God overrides our duty to man, the first table is elevated above the second. I really don't think that in obeying the first table we would ever have to disobey the second. God did not give us commandments that contradict each other.
> 
> It means exactly what I say it means. If you don't take care of your family and you don't honor your father and your mother, you will incur the judgment of God. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> No where did I suggest that you would need to disobey God in order to keep another one of his commands.



I guess I am just not seeing how the fifth commandment is directly relevant to Matthew's question.


----------



## Bondman

ChristopherPaul said:


> But of course. My point is there are two views on the fourth commandment. What Matthew needs to resolve is his interpretation of the fourth commandment.
> 
> Matthew, do you take exception to the confessions on this point?



I wouldn't say that I take exception to the confessions; at present, I don't understand it to, without a doubt, say what you believe it says. I looked at the passages referenced in the WCF and I still don't know.

For the record, apart from anything else, I don't even want to go to this party. I just got A.W. Pinks Sovereignty of God and can't wait to pick it up. It is of course a question of what God wants his servant to do.


----------



## gwine

ChristopherPaul said:


> I guess I am just not seeing how the fifth commandment is directly relevant to Matthew's question.



Can't help you there, my brother. I frequently find myself at a loss about many issues discussed here on the PB. I merely offer Scripture that I believe is pertinent to the thread and see what comes of it. Some don't think it is relevant and others do. It is definitely not worth 2 cents.

Let us  and I will go back to . At least we will all be in  the other side of paradise.


----------



## Bondman

LadyFlynt said:


> Bill and Chris...though from two angles...you both hit the point.
> 
> Bill, that is my point...we could play "what ifs" all day long. This thread, though a real situation, is a what if with all the "buts" included. Honestly, what witnessing is a person truely going to do at a birthday party? Is he really going to sit there and give his dad the gospel or rather to the point, is his dad and extended family really going to sit there and listen. More than likely they will be busy laughing and having a Party as that is the intent of getting together...not merely spending time in discussion.
> 
> Chris, I think you nailed it.
> 
> 
> "Witnessing" is often times used as an excuse to compromise where a person really has no intent of witnessing (and no, I'm not presuming this is what the OP is thinking...generally speaking here). I've seen one person refuse his F and SM to stay at their house because of a "sin" he sees in their life. Yet the same person will stay at his IL's house, though committing the same "sin". The excuse is "well, we're witnessing to them".



My family operates a bit differently. Discussions of religion and politics abound. A good deal of Christian witness could indeed actually occur. This is perhaps beside the point, but I still wanted to mention it.


----------



## Herald

And so that hissing sound you hear is the air going out of this thread. Interesting how a thread dies. You can almost feel it.


----------



## Bondman

ChristopherPaul said:


> God is central on all days, but our attention is by necessity distracted due to obligations pertaining to life. His people are graced with a day set apart from all others, so that we can rest from worldly distractions and spend one day out of seven with all attention on the public and private worship of God (which we as disciples embrace – or should).  Birthday celebrations, no matter how they are conducted are centering focus on a carnal event which like the other six days restrains us from devoting our private and public attention to the worship of God.
> 
> This one day out of seven frees us so we can do what we desire to do all week, but cannot because of worldly obligations and distractions. If we could only be so free to focus all attention on God the other 6 days of the week, but we can’t. we must wait until glory for such to come, but until then we are graced with a taste of glory one day a week which is set apart for God and God alone.



I love this idea. I would like to see it spelled out in the Bible. Can anybody present passages of Scripture with which one could reasonably infer that the New Covenant believer is actually prohibited from these sorts of things? 

I would have no problem telling my parents this if I were to be convinced of it and could even show them Scripture that backs up the position.


----------



## Bondman

ChristopherPaul said:


> ?
> 
> Children, obey your parents *in the Lord*, for this is right (Ephesians 6:1).
> 
> Would you honor your dad if he asked you to skip church for a football game or to give false testimony, or steal, or to worship a false god?



This is obvious, but I have yet to be convinced that attending a family gathering on the Sabbath violates the commandment. How do we get there?


----------



## Calvibaptist

Bondman said:


> This is obvious, but I have yet to be convinced that attending a family gathering on the Sabbath violates the commandment. How do we get there?



Of course, if you were asked to skip church to go to a family gathering, that would be different!


----------



## Scott Bushey

Calvibaptist said:


> So, here is the problem:
> 
> 1) We have quoted the Scripture
> 
> Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
> 
> 2) Although we forgot Jesus' comments on the Sabbath
> 
> Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
> 
> Mark 2:27-28 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
> 
> 3) We have quoted the WCF (or LBC) on the Sabbath
> 
> VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
> 
> 4) Not one of these mentions a birthday party. Although some might argue that "worldly employments and recreations" would include a birthday party, I could also argue that driving a car, taking a shower, eating a meal, watching tv, listening to the radio while driving a car, and any other thing that one might do any other day of the week would also fall in that very general category.
> 
> What is the answer? Neither legalism (making a new law that you can't go to the birthday party) nor antinomianism (saying that it doesn't matter what you do on Sunday). Rather we should all take the instruction of Paul from Romans 14:
> 
> Romans 14:4-6 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.



The birthday celebration is the intentional _elevating_ of a person based upon a birthdate. The lit candles and the following _making of a wish_ are totally pagan. No one should be elevated on the Lords day other than Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

I demand a pie on my birthday; blueberry to be accurate! No candles.


----------



## Scott Bushey

Bondman said:


> This is obvious, but I have yet to be convinced that attending a family gathering on the Sabbath violates the commandment. How do we get there?



I don't think 'gathering' violates the Sabbath; it's what one does on the day.....


----------



## Scott Bushey

I will add: If it means dishonoring parent for the sake of honoring God, so be it.


----------



## Arch2k

Calvibaptist said:


> So, here is the problem:
> 
> 2) Although we forgot Jesus' comments on the Sabbath
> 
> Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
> 
> Mark 2:27-28 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."


 
It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. This is what the Westminster Divines saw as acts of necessity and mercy. Is celebrating a birthday either of these?



Calvibaptist said:


> 4) Not one of these mentions a birthday party. Although some might argue that "worldly employments and recreations" would include a birthday party, I could also argue that driving a car, taking a shower, eating a meal, watching tv, listening to the radio while driving a car, and any other thing that one might do any other day of the week would also fall in that very general category.


 
Again, some of these are acts of necessity and/or mercy. If they are one of these, they are lawful. If not, they are not lawful.



Calvibaptist said:


> What is the answer? Neither legalism (making a new law that you can't go to the birthday party) nor antinomianism (saying that it doesn't matter what you do on Sunday). Rather we should all take the instruction of Paul from Romans 14:
> 
> Romans 14:4-6 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.


 
This is not talking about the christian sabbath. If you study this section, Paul is talking about O.T. (God ordained) holy days. These were part of the ceremonial law, and early N.T. converts were free to observe or not to observe. The christian Sabbath however is part of the moral law, and is not subject to the liberty that Paul grants to the observance of these holy days. The Christian Sabbath is forever binding to Christ's church.


----------



## Blueridge Believer

I observe the sabbath 24/7:



Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


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## Me Died Blue

Scott Bushey said:


> I don't think 'gathering' violates the Sabbath; it's what one does on the day.....



Exactly. This was the very point I was trying to further elaborate above.


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## Casey

Not going may have the consequences of harming your relationship with your father (I don't know the situation). Depending on how close he lives, you may just go for a half-hour or something, to demonstrate your care and respect for him. This may have two positive results: (1) maintain a good relationship with him, showing your care, and (2) your leaving after only a short time may demonstrate to him your priority of honoring the Lord in sanctifying his holy day.

Absolutizing a command is just as bad as neglecting it. We live in a messy, sinful world. Simply concluding that it's a sin to visit your father on the Sabbath, it seems to me, is a legalistic application of this particular command. Wisdom is required, not a mere external conformity to the command. Your father isn't asking you to sin.


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## gwine

Scott Bushey said:


> I demand a pie on my birthday; blueberry to be accurate! No candles.


I always had pie on my birthday when I was growing up. Butterscotch meringue and (to appease the others) apple. My grandfather was the best pie maker.

And no candles, either.


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## ChristopherPaul

Bondman said:


> This is obvious, but I have yet to be convinced that attending a family gathering on the Sabbath violates the commandment. How do we get there?



I also have yet to be convinced that attending a family gathering on the Sabbath violates the commandment.


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## ChristopherPaul

Bondman said:


> I love this idea. I would like to see it spelled out in the Bible. Can anybody present passages of Scripture with which one could reasonably infer that the New Covenant believer is actually prohibited from these sorts of things?
> 
> I would have no problem telling my parents this if I were to be convinced of it and could even show them Scripture that backs up the position.



This is the reformed position on the 4th commandment. Check out the WCF and the Larger Catechism along with the scripture proofs in context. I have not read any specific books dedicated to this point, but the following are some books that have been recommended on the subject:


_Call the Sabbath A Delight_ by Walter Chantry 
_Calvin and the Sabbath_ by Richard Gaffin
_Celebrating the Sabbath_ by Bruce Ray
_The Lord’s Day _by Daniel Wilson
_The Lord’s Day _by Joseph Pipa

The Reformed view of the Sabbath is not a burden but a delight. “This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:24).

Grace Brother,


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## jenney

Blueridge reformer said:


> I observe the sabbath 24/7:



Really? I can't believe that your life on Monday is the same as your life on Sunday. You mean your other six days are elevated to the level of the Sabbath? Or do you mean Sunday is brought down to the level of the other six?

The Lord's Day is the best day of the week! I don't have to cook or clean or teach school, and my husband is with us to take up the discipline that often interrupts my devotions. It isn't great because I don't have to work, though: it is great because the lack of those things (and recreational distractions) means I _do_ have time for the food and drink I need most. 

It is a day when I am sure to be fed on the Word of God and have time in prayer with Him and, unless providentially hindered, be in fellowship with His people hearing the Word preached. It is the market day for the soul and I rely on it for my spiritual health. I can't imagine every day being like that because I do have responsibilities every day that can be put off for 24 hours but not forever (like mopping, laundry, organizing my studio, etc.) It isn't possible for every day to be like that as long as we are in this life.

I'm not trying to be super-spiritual here, but honestly trying to understand:
How can every day be the Lord's Day?

The Hebrews passage isn't talking about getting rid of the Sabbath. It's talking about the "already-not yet" that we live in. We still keep the Sabbath in part as a reminder of what is to come: an eternal Sabbath! That's why I can't fathom how one can have 24/7 Sabbath here. Isn't the Lord's Day a special taste of the life to come? Unless you really mean that you spend every day in fellowship with God and His people the same way you do on Sunday, then I have to guess you don't have the benefit of the Sabbath as we who are Sabbath-keepers experience it. And for that I am saddened and would hope you might reconsider the fourth commandment.

Sincerely, I don't mean to be offensive. I'm honestly trying to understand if you mean the same thing by "observe". To say "I observe the Sabbath 24/7" is akin to saying "I eat the Lord's supper every meal!" or "Every bath is a baptism." unless we mean different things by observing the day. And we might!

without wax,
jenney


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## crhoades

jenney said:


> Really? I can't believe that your life on Monday is the same as your life on Sunday. You mean your other six days are elevated to the level of the Sabbath? Or do you mean Sunday is brought down to the level of the other six?
> 
> The Lord's Day is the best day of the week! I don't have to cook or clean or teach school, and my husband is with us to take up the discipline that often interrupts my devotions. It isn't great because I don't have to work, though: it is great because the lack of those things (and recreational distractions) means I _do_ have time for the food and drink I need most.
> 
> It is a day when I am sure to be fed on the Word of God and have time in prayer with Him and, unless providentially hindered, be in fellowship with His people hearing the Word preached. It is the market day for the soul and I rely on it for my spiritual health. I can't imagine every day being like that because I do have responsibilities every day that can be put off for 24 hours but not forever (like mopping, laundry, organizing my studio, etc.) It isn't possible for every day to be like that as long as we are in this life.
> 
> I'm not trying to be super-spiritual here, but honestly trying to understand:
> How can every day be the Lord's Day?
> 
> The Hebrews passage isn't talking about getting rid of the Sabbath. It's talking about the "already-not yet" that we live in. We still keep the Sabbath in part as a reminder of what is to come: an eternal Sabbath! That's why I can't fathom how one can have 24/7 Sabbath here. Isn't the Lord's Day a special taste of the life to come? Unless you really mean that you spend every day in fellowship with God and His people the same way you do on Sunday, then I have to guess you don't have the benefit of the Sabbath as we who are Sabbath-keepers experience it. And for that I am saddened and would hope you might reconsider the fourth commandment.
> 
> Sincerely, I don't mean to be offensive. I'm honestly trying to understand if you mean the same thing by "observe". To say "I observe the Sabbath 24/7" is akin to saying "I eat the Lord's supper every meal!" or "Every bath is a baptism." unless we mean different things by observing the day. And we might!
> 
> without wax,
> jenney


 
Thank you for posting your thoughts. They did my heart some good in the content and the demeanor. Wish more followed your lead.


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## Blueridge Believer

jenney said:


> Really? I can't believe that your life on Monday is the same as your life on Sunday. You mean your other six days are elevated to the level of the Sabbath? Or do you mean Sunday is brought down to the level of the other six?
> 
> The Lord's Day is the best day of the week! I don't have to cook or clean or teach school, and my husband is with us to take up the discipline that often interrupts my devotions. It isn't great because I don't have to work, though: it is great because the lack of those things (and recreational distractions) means I _do_ have time for the food and drink I need most.
> 
> It is a day when I am sure to be fed on the Word of God and have time in prayer with Him and, unless providentially hindered, be in fellowship with His people hearing the Word preached. It is the market day for the soul and I rely on it for my spiritual health. I can't imagine every day being like that because I do have responsibilities every day that can be put off for 24 hours but not forever (like mopping, laundry, organizing my studio, etc.) It isn't possible for every day to be like that as long as we are in this life.
> 
> I'm not trying to be super-spiritual here, but honestly trying to understand:
> How can every day be the Lord's Day?
> 
> The Hebrews passage isn't talking about getting rid of the Sabbath. It's talking about the "already-not yet" that we live in. We still keep the Sabbath in part as a reminder of what is to come: an eternal Sabbath! That's why I can't fathom how one can have 24/7 Sabbath here. Isn't the Lord's Day a special taste of the life to come? Unless you really mean that you spend every day in fellowship with God and His people the same way you do on Sunday, then I have to guess you don't have the benefit of the Sabbath as we who are Sabbath-keepers experience it. And for that I am saddened and would hope you might reconsider the fourth commandment.
> 
> Sincerely, I don't mean to be offensive. I'm honestly trying to understand if you mean the same thing by "observe". To say "I observe the Sabbath 24/7" is akin to saying "I eat the Lord's supper every meal!" or "Every bath is a baptism." unless we mean different things by observing the day. And we might!
> 
> without wax,
> jenney



I think you missed it. I believe the OT sabbath was a type of God's rest in Christ. I'm resting in Him from all my labors. He is my Sabbath. 
http://www.freegrace.net/FAQArticles/who_keeps_the_sabbath.htm


The Lord Jesus Christ gives rest to every sinner who comes to him by faith (Matt. 11:28). In the mind and purpose of God, the works of redemption and grace were finished before the foundation of the world, but this blessed rest of salvation must be apprehended and entered into by faith and it is written, "That some must enter therein". God has an elect people who must come to Christ by faith and enter into his rest. What is that rest which Christ gives to sinners when they come to him by faith? He gives us the blessed rest of complete pardon (Isa. 43:25; Eph. 1:6), perfect reconciliation (Col. 1:20-21), absolute security (John 10:27-30), and his providential care (Rom. 8:28). Coming to Christ by faith, we find rest. In this way we keep the Sabbath, but our Sabbath of faith is more than a ceasing from our own works and a remembering of our redemption. It also involves, in its essence, the consecration of our lives to God our savior (Matt. 11:29-30). We keep the Sabbath of faith and find rest for our souls when we willfully, deliberately, wholeheartedly surrender to Christ as our Lord. Keeping the Sabbath is more than going to church on Sunday and keeping one day in seven for religious exercises. It is ceasing from our works, trusting Christ alone for acceptance with God, and consecrating ourselves entirely to Him. In doing so, we find rest!


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## crhoades

Blueridge reformer said:


> I think you missed it. I believe the OT sabbath was a type of God's rest in Christ. I'm resting in Him from all my labors. He is my Sabbath.
> http://www.freegrace.net/FAQArticles/who_keeps_the_sabbath.htm
> 
> 
> The Lord Jesus Christ gives rest to every sinner who comes to him by faith (Matt. 11:28). In the mind and purpose of God, the works of redemption and grace were finished before the foundation of the world, but this blessed rest of salvation must be apprehended and entered into by faith and it is written, "That some must enter therein". God has an elect people who must come to Christ by faith and enter into his rest. What is that rest which Christ gives to sinners when they come to him by faith? He gives us the blessed rest of complete pardon (Isa. 43:25; Eph. 1:6), perfect reconciliation (Col. 1:20-21), absolute security (John 10:27-30), and his providential care (Rom. 8:28). Coming to Christ by faith, we find rest. In this way we keep the Sabbath, but our Sabbath of faith is more than a ceasing from our own works and a remembering of our redemption. It also involves, in its essence, the consecration of our lives to God our savior (Matt. 11:29-30). We keep the Sabbath of faith and find rest for our souls when we willfully, deliberately, wholeheartedly surrender to Christ as our Lord. Keeping the Sabbath is more than going to church on Sunday and keeping one day in seven for religious exercises. It is ceasing from our works, trusting Christ alone for acceptance with God, and consecrating ourselves entirely to Him. In doing so, we find rest!


 
Not answering for Jenney but for myself, I wouldn't deny what you just wrote. I would only add that just as marriage is a type that points to true union with Christ through faith and we are still to marry because it was a part of creation - thus we are to also observe the Sabbath minus its ceremonial aspects looking forward to our eternal rest and resting in Christ for our justification.


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## jenney

Blueridge reformer said:


> I think you missed it. I believe the OT sabbath was a type of God's rest in Christ. I'm resting in Him from all my labors. He is my Sabbath.
> (snip)
> *Keeping the Sabbath is more than* going to church on Sunday and keeping one day in seven for religious exercises. It is ceasing from our works, trusting Christ alone for acceptance with God, and consecrating ourselves entirely to Him. In doing so, we find rest!



I am still not seeing how not keeping the day holy is making it _more_.

It implies that this:
"The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe a holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy."

is making less of the day because we who believe this are somehow not ceasing from our works and trusting in Christ alone for acceptance with God.

That isn't what you are saying, right? That wouldn't even make sense, so I'm not sure why I'm asking! You can't think that I'm relying on works for my salvation just because I love the Lord's Day. But the article implies that if we do remember the Sabbath and keep it holy that we are _merely_ going to church on Sunday and keeping one day in seven. Which is what confuses me.

Thanks for your patience! I'm like the Bear of Little Brain.


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## Blueridge Believer

jenney said:


> I am still not seeing how not keeping the day holy is making it _more_.
> 
> It implies that this:
> "The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe a holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy."
> 
> is making less of the day because we who believe this are somehow not ceasing from our works and trusting in Christ alone for acceptance with God.
> 
> That isn't what you are saying, right? That wouldn't even make sense, so I'm not sure why I'm asking! You can't think that I'm relying on works for my salvation just because I love the Lord's Day. But the article implies that if we do remember the Sabbath and keep it holy that we are _merely_ going to church on Sunday and keeping one day in seven. Which is what confuses me.
> 
> Thanks for your patience! I'm like the Bear of Little Brain.




I enjoy the Lord's day as much as you. I would not miss an assembly of the saints but under the most extreme duress. However, I do not believe that Sunday, or the Lord's day, is the Sabbath.


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## jenney

Blueridge reformer said:


> I enjoy the Lord's day as much as you. I would not miss an assembly of the saints but under the most extreme duress. However, I do not believe that Sunday, or the Lord's day, is the Sabbath.



I think I understand your position now.

When your signature line says you hold to the LBC of 1644/1646, does that mean you do not hold to the LBC of 1689? They aren't mutually exclusive, of course, but they are nearly unrelated and the 1689 doesn't leave any wiggle room wrt the Christian Sabbath.

I'm asking because my understanding was that joining the board here was essentially an agreement to either the WCF or the LBC-1689. If that were the case, there might be a question of the practical outworking of the Christian Sabbath but not an outright _denial_ of it (as both the LBC-1689 and the WCF are quite clear in their position). And so it surprises me that you would hold to that view and still be here.

Do you believe we need to obey the Law of God? Or are you dispensational regarding the Ten Commandments?

If you are weary of answering my questions, you can stop and I won't be offended! I don't want to hijack the thread!

all the best,


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## Bondman

jenney said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread!



Don't worry about hijacking it. 

Can you show why you hold Sunday as the Sabbath. 

Why is our Sabbath different from the Jewish Sabbath as regards to the strictness of what we are able to do?


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## Blueridge Believer

jenney said:


> I think I understand your position now.
> 
> When your signature line says you hold to the LBC of 1644/1646, does that mean you do not hold to the LBC of 1689? They aren't mutually exclusive, of course, but they are nearly unrelated and the 1689 doesn't leave any wiggle room wrt the Christian Sabbath.
> 
> I'm asking because my understanding was that joining the board here was essentially an agreement to either the WCF or the LBC-1689. If that were the case, there might be a question of the practical outworking of the Christian Sabbath but not an outright _denial_ of it (as both the LBC-1689 and the WCF are quite clear in their position). And so it surprises me that you would hold to that view and still be here.
> 
> Do you believe we need to obey the Law of God? Or are you dispensational regarding the Ten Commandments?
> 
> If you are weary of answering my questions, you can stop and I won't be offended! I don't want to hijack the thread!
> 
> all the best,




That's fine dear sister. My church actually holds to both the 1689 and the 1646. However, we disagree with the sabbath position in the 1689. As far as the law goes, it is written in our hearts and we delight in it after the inward man. Nothing in the NT gives us the right to live in direct oppostion to the law of God. It is the grace of God that brings salvation that teaches us how to live, denying ungodliness and worldy lust and to live soberly and righteously in this present evil world. As far as the two baptist confessions go, I find that the 1646 presents my view of the doctrines of the faith better.
However, I am in general agreement with the 1689.
God bless and keep you!


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## jenney

Bondman said:


> Don't worry about hijacking it.
> 
> Can you show why you hold Sunday as the Sabbath.



yes.



> Why is our Sabbath different from the Jewish Sabbath as regards to the strictness of what we are able to do?



One reason I don't really want to hijack the thread is that this spinoff doesn't seem to totally belong in this forum the way the original post did. So I would prefer taking it elsewhere and giving it a thread of its own, and one which is more visible to the more articulate (than I) to take up.

Furthermore, there are really excellent books out there on this subject. Several were listed above and I would recommend them instead of arguing for the position they/I hold, because I am not a very good debater and don't have a lot of time at the computer to maintain the discussion.

I'm sorry if I've egged on a discussion in which I don't care to participate. That's why I usually avoid the forums outside the family one!  

shalom,
jenney


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## jenney

Blueridge reformer said:


> As far as the law goes, it is written in our hearts and we delight in it after the inward man.



It seems odd to me to delight in the law while breaking it. Or does your church teach that it has just passed away, so it can't be broken?

Where is Dublin? I used to live in up in Leesburg.
jenney


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## Blueridge Believer

jenney said:


> It seems odd to me to delight in the law while breaking it. Or does your church teach that it has just passed away, so it can't be broken?
> 
> Where is Dublin? I used to live in up in Leesburg.
> jenney



Again dear sister, one keeps the sabbath by resting in Christ. Christ is the sabbath rest. As for keeping the law, no one on earth has ever kept it but Christ. Dublin is about 60 miles south of Roanoke.

God bless and keep you.


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## Scott Bushey

Blueridge reformer said:


> Again dear sister, one keeps the sabbath by resting in Christ. Christ is the sabbath rest. As for keeping the law, no one on earth has ever kept it but Christ. Dublin is about 60 miles south of Roanoke.
> 
> God bless and keep you.



James,
Can you elaborate upon just exactly what 'resting in Christ' means in relation to the principles that say a strict Sabbatarian may hold to for the Lords day?


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## Blueridge Believer

Scott Bushey said:


> James,
> Can you elaborate upon just exactly what 'resting in Christ' means in relation to the principles that say a strict Sabbatarian may hold to for the Lords day?



Hello brother Scott. I wish I had the time to write a comprehensive doctrinal treatise on what I believe but time will not allow me to do so. However, the link below is very comprehensive and speaks for me very well. God bless and keep you all.

http://members.toast.net/puritan/Articles/SabbathAndLordsDay_f.htm

Sabbath and the Lord's Day 
by Mitch Cervinka


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