# Southern Presbyterianism and R. L. Dabney



## AV1611 (May 13, 2007)

When I read an article about Dabney it said he was a Southern Presbyterian. Does that tag mean anything more than he was a Presbyterian who lived in the Southern States?


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## Semper Fidelis (May 13, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> When I read an article about Dabney it said he was a Southern Presbyterian. Does that tag mean anything more than he was a Presbyterian who lived in the Southern States?



Oh yes. The Presbyterian Church split in the U.S. during the Civil War. The Southern Branch of the Presbyterian Church reflects southern culture to some degree, which is very distinct from that of the Northern U.S. As a general rule, Southern Presbyterians were more influenced by revivalism but I don't want to try and speak too far out of turn. There is a noticeable difference between the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), which has its roots in Northern Presbyterianism and the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), which has its roots in Southern Presbyterianism. I've attended both and I like a broader concern for evangelism in the PCA but I dislike that it generally tends to be less subscriptionist.


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## Puritanhead (May 13, 2007)

Southern Presbyterians are the best.


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## Irishcat922 (May 13, 2007)

Puritanhead said:


> Southern Presbyterians are the best.



True Dat!


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## bookslover (May 13, 2007)

He had a pointy beard and a mean look (check out the photos of him) and insisted on being buried in the uniform he wore during the War of Southern Recalcitrance (they lost, by the way).

His _Systematic Theology_ is very readable and useful, though.


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## JM (May 13, 2007)

Didn't Dabney defend slavery in "A Defense of Virginia?"


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## NaphtaliPress (May 13, 2007)

Dabney like many in that day had feet of clay certainly. There were exceptions. There will be an article, hopefully, D.V., in the forthcoming, again Lord willing, volume 3 of _The Confessional Presbyterian_ journal by C. N. Willborn titled, "Presbyterians in the South and the Slave: A Study in Benevolence." Here is a snippet:The records tell us, “Session did then with prayer and the imposition of their hands ordain the persons... and install them in the same.” Thus, Zion [Presbyterian Church in Charleston, SC] became the first Southern church governed by black elders.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] Girardeau had done what Dabney and a host of other Southern churchmen would not consider doing. He had admitted that black men could be qualified to rule in the church. He had exhibited his approbation by participating in the holy service, even the laying on of hands. What Dabney and others doubted possible, Girardeau confirmed as real.​Sadly, Girardeau’s experiment did not gain prominence in the Southern Church. In 1874, the Presbyterian Church US, under political and social pressures from within and without, voted to segregate their communion into black and white churches. Girardeau opposed the move, lost the vote, and lost his beloved Zion.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] Within a few short years many black Presbyterians across the South affiliated with the Presbyterian Church USA, leaving the Presbyterian Church US. ​
33.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]_Minutes of Session of the Zion Presbyterian Church, Glebe Street, August 15, 1869, _PHS. An announcement of the events of Sunday evening August 15, 1869 was published in the _Southern Presbyterian and Index, _nd., available on Microfilm #160, SCL.

34.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]Girardeau was elected Professor of Didactic and Polemic Theology in the Columbia Theological Seminary in 1875 and remained in that chair until 1893 when his failing health forced his retirement. He died a peaceful death in Columbia on June 23, 1898 and lies awaiting the resurrection of the body in Columbia’s Elmwood Cemetery.​


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## bookslover (May 13, 2007)

JM said:


> Didn't Dabney defend slavery in "A Defense of Virginia?"



Yes, unfortunately.


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## jfschultz (May 13, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Oh yes. The Presbyterian Church split in the U.S. during the Civil War. The Southern Branch of the Presbyterian Church reflects southern culture to some degree, which is very distinct from that of the Northern U.S. As a general rule, Southern Presbyterians were more influenced by revivalism but I don't want to try and speak too far out of turn. There is a noticeable difference between the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), which has its roots in Northern Presbyterianism and the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), which has its roots in Southern Presbyterianism. I've attended both and I like a broader concern for evangelism in the PCA but I dislike that it generally tends to be less subscriptionist.



One of the reasons that kept the Northern and Southern Presbyterians apart after the Civil War was the Old School/New School split. The Southern Presbyterians were Old School and rejected reunion because the split was healed in the northern church. I suspect that part of the PCA subscription problem today comes from the J&R of the RPCES, which probably had more New School leanings.


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## Semper Fidelis (May 13, 2007)

jfschultz said:


> One of the reasons that kept the Northern and Southern Presbyterians apart after the Civil War was the Old School/New School split. The Southern Presbyterians were Old School and rejected reunion because the split was healed in the northern church. I suspect that part of the PCA subscription problem today comes from the J&R of the RPCES, which probably had more New School leanings.



You're right but I'm thinking of more modern Presbyterians that have been influenced by decades of Billy Graham and an incursion of broadly Evangelical tendencies that have depreciated confessional subscription.


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## SRoper (May 13, 2007)

I think Dabney's attitude of "never forgive" had more to do with why there was no North/South reunion.

I wonder if the differences in attitudes towards subscription have more to do with history of the churches during the 20th century. The PCA stayed with the mainline for far longer and split at a time when the confessions were not as valued.


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## RamistThomist (May 13, 2007)

Volume 4 of Dabney's Discussions is one of the most masterful collections of political and social reflection. It drips with heroism. (and almost all his predictions of what life would be like came true).


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 13, 2007)

I live in the South, and am a Presbyterian. Does that make me a Southern Presbyterian?  

Well, Florida is really the deep North so I guess I am a study in contrast in that regard.


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## jfschultz (May 14, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> I live in the South, and am a Presbyterian. Does that make me a Southern Presbyterian?
> 
> Well, Florida is really the deep North so I guess I am a study in contrast in that regard.



Yup, in Florida the farther south one travels the farther north they get. That is until you get to "North Cuba."


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## Bladestunner316 (May 14, 2007)

Isnt Florida filled with wacked out crazy "churchs"?


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## Herald (May 14, 2007)

Bladestunner316 said:


> Isnt Florida filled with wacked out crazy "churchs"?



You mean like card tricking, Presbyterian pastors?  I'll never tell.


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## Puritanhead (May 14, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Well, Florida is really the deep North so I guess I am a study in contrast in that regard.


 I once heard a cliche: the further _south_ you go in Florida, the further _north_ you go. The further _north_ you go in Florida, the further _south_ you go.

The culture in Tallahassee is quite a contrast with that of Ft. Lauderdale and Palm Beach area.


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## RamistThomist (May 14, 2007)

Later this evening I plan to pull a quote from Dabney's book on ethics dealing with political liberty. He showed how America, thanks to the Late Unpleasantness, would cease to be a Republic and would then become and Empire. He also pointed to a future loss of American liberties, which prophecy was fulfilled under Bush II (ala Patriot Act).


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## Semper Fidelis (May 14, 2007)

Puritanhead said:


> I once heard a cliche: the further _south_ you go in Florida, the further _north_ you go. The further _north_ you go in Florida, the further _south_ you go.
> 
> The culture in Tallahassee is quite a contrast with that of Ft. Lauderdale and Palm Beach area.



How about this for a made-up cliche:

The more economic opportunity you have in the South, the more Yankees you'll find...


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## Puritanhead (May 14, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Later this evening I plan to pull a quote from Dabney's book on ethics dealing with political liberty. He showed how America, thanks to the Late Unpleasantness, would cease to be a Republic and would then become and Empire. He also pointed to a future loss of American liberties, which prophecy was fulfilled under Bush II (ala Patriot Act).


 What are you talking about Jacob? *(This text selection has been suppressed under the authority of the U.S.A. Patriot Act of 2001. Please disregard.)* America is as free as it ever was. *(This text selection has been suppressed under the authority of the U.S.A. Patriot Act of 2001. Please disregard.)* Having every other citizen be a police state informer is good for America. It creates jobs and full employment. *(This text selection has been suppressed under the authority of the U.S.A. Patriot Act of 2001. Please disregard.)* Something Uncle Sam likes to call Freedom Plus! For more information on the Patriot Act, please report to federal detention centers—ugh, I mean happy clown candy centers. *(This text selection has been suppressed under the authority of the U.S.A. Patriot Act of 2001. Please disregard.)*


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## Semper Fidelis (May 14, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Later this evening I plan to pull a quote from Dabney's book on ethics dealing with political liberty. He showed how America, thanks to the Late Unpleasantness, would cease to be a Republic and would then become and Empire. He also pointed to a future loss of American liberties, which prophecy was fulfilled under Bush II (ala Patriot Act).



Let's just please make sure to put that in a new thread because Richard is probably quite wondering what happened to his thread.


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## Puritanhead (May 14, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> How about this for a made-up cliche:
> 
> The more economic opportunity you have in the South, the more Yankees you'll find...


 Must explain why my hometown has so few yankees.


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## tewilder (May 14, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> When I read an article about Dabney it said he was a Southern Presbyterian. Does that tag mean anything more than he was a Presbyterian who lived in the Southern States?



American religion is incomprehensible apart from patterns of immigration.

The north had Puritans and further inland in New York and Pennsylvania a lot of German immigrants many refugees from the 30 years war. The South started out with Anglican, basically commercial settlements, with Scots-Irish pushing in to the western part of the south, giving the south a rather Celtic character eventually. It is from this group that we get the Arminian Cumberland Presbyterians, and the Restorationists groups, often called Cambellites, after one of the founders, Cambell, born in Scotland, and the continual revivalism traditions. 

In the north there are Dutch Reformed, spilt into denominations on the basis of when the immigrated. The Reformed Church in America was the early group, the Christian Reformed Church was 19th century immigrants who had been influenced by Kuyper. After WWII Dutch immigrants, influenced Schilder, mostly went to Canada, which is what that denomination is the Canadian Reformed Church, and not every influential in the US. These churches are highly ethnic, and live be the slogan, "If you're not Dutch, you're not much."

The Reformed Church in the United States is the old German Reformed Church. This church mostly disappeared into a merger with liberal denominations, except for one classis, which was made up of a group of Germans that came from Russia in the 19th century, rather then being 17th and 18th century immigrants like the others. These Russian Germans formed the core of the RCUS, and were later supplimented by Dutch who left the Christian Reformed Church when it went liberal.


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## Theogenes (May 14, 2007)

tewilder said:


> American religion is incomprehensible apart from patterns of immigration.
> 
> The north had Puritans and further inland in New York and Pennsylvania a lot of German immigrants many refugees from the 30 years war. The South started out with Anglican, basically commercial settlements, with Scots-Irish pushing in to the western part of the south, giving the south a rather Celtic character eventually. It is from this group that we get the Arminian Cumberland Presbyterians, and the Restorationists groups, often called Cambellites, after one of the founders, Cambell, born in Scotland, and the continual revivalism traditions.
> 
> ...



Yayyyyyy!!! RCUS!!!

T.E.,
How do you get to your church from White Bear Lake?? I may be visiting on July 1st. Also, what time are your services?
Thanks!
Jim


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## tewilder (May 14, 2007)

Jim Snyder said:


> Yayyyyyy!!! RCUS!!!
> 
> T.E.,
> How do you get to your church from White Bear Lake?? I may be visiting on July 1st. Also, what time are your services?
> ...



Yesterday we called it off, as there were too few people, and I went to the RCUS, and the others went to the OPC. So at present its continuation is somewhat in doubt. We meet at 10:30 in a house, but because of our present low numbers, it is best to check first.


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