# AA vs. NPP



## Ranger (Dec 22, 2004)

I'm confused. Are they the same thing?


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## Ianterrell (Dec 22, 2004)

No not all AA are NPP.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2004)

Whatever else one may say of the matter, not all NPP (Sanders, Dunn, Gundry, Wright) are "Reformed," nor would they want to be under that label (if you really want to irritate a moderate biblical theologian, ask him what category or system he holds to). On the other hand, Wilson, Wilkins, and Co. do appear under Reformed labels. So whatever theological affinities they may have with each other, there are differences.


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## luvroftheWord (Dec 22, 2004)

The AA guy that I know for certain is NPP is Schlissel. The only guy that I know for certain is NOT NPP is Doug Wilson. As for the rest, I'm not sure where they fall.


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## openairboy (Dec 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ranger_
> I'm confused. Are they the same thing?



No, they are not the same. Auburn Avenue is simpley the name of a PCA church in LA, and a few years back they had a conference entitled "The Federal Vision". In this instance, they used "federal" because it is the latin word for "covenant" and they were seeking to develop the significance of the covenant. These men did not agree with one another on all issues, so it is by no means a movement. 

Unfortunately it is easier to lump people together, making them an easy target, and if it can be claimed that it is a "movement", then it gives people a cause, so the two often are lumped together, but they aren't related. I wouldn't even put them as second cousins.

The Auburn Avenue lectures are available on-line (sermonaudio.com) and you can listen in for yourself. '03 is available as well, I believe, and this is a follow up conference where men with questions and/or opposition could present their side. There is also a book, but the title escapes me.

Due to the discussion of the covenant and the development of a more corporate identity, I believe is part of the reason these groups are being put together. I realize many will label them as denying the traditional doctrine of justification by faith, but Wilson and others clearly affirm this doctrine. Wilson still maintains the imputation of Christ's righteousness, but many (or all???) of the NPP people see "righteousness" revolving around God's "covenantal faithfulness" to save his people. 

A lot more could be said, but feel free to tune out those that put the two in the same pod for you can rest assured they haven't done their homework.

sdg,
openairboy


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## AdamM (Dec 22, 2004)

Follow the link below to the October edition of Mid-America Reformed Seminary Messenger and see pages 3 & 4:

http://www.midamerica.edu/pubs/oct04.pdf

There are several very good short articles by the faculty on both the NPP & Federal Vision. For what it's worth, Dr. Cornel Venema of Mid-America is an especially good resource on these issues. For more resource links to articles from Dr. Venema go to:

http://www.teachingtheword.org and click the "justification" tab.

[Edited on 23-12-2004 by AdamM]


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## fredtgreco (Dec 22, 2004)

They are not the same. But there are overlaps and tendencies of agreement, Hence the speaker at this years Auburn Avenue Conference is NT Wright, the chief spokesman today for the New Perspective on Paul. There are elements of covenantal nomism, denial of the grace of perseverance, and other tendencies in both. But there are also dissimilarities as well.

Both are dangerous, but in different ways.


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## pastorway (Dec 22, 2004)

As James White has rightly stated in his lectures on NPP, they take different roads but get to the same erroneous conclusions.

Phillip


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## RickyReformed (Dec 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> Follow the link below to the October edition of Mid-America Reformed Seminary Messenger and see pages 3 & 4:
> 
> http://www.midamerica.edu/pubs/oct04.pdf
> ...



Thanks Adam for the links! I was not familiar with the Teaching The Word website; it looks like an excellent resource. It even has a link to an article by one of my favorite pastors: Andy Webb.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 28, 2004)

Teaching the word is run by Paul Elliot, a PCA RE in Maryland. Ricky - you may have seen him post on the Warfield List.


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## RickyReformed (Dec 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Teaching the word is run by Paul Elliot, a PCA RE in Maryland. Ricky - you may have seen him post on the Warfield List.



Yes, I have seen Paul Elliot post on the Warfield list. I didn't realize that TtW was his site. It definitely rocks!! The Warfield list rocks too!!!


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## Ivan (Dec 28, 2004)

Hmmm...so there's a Warfield list...hmmm...must investigate!


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## fredtgreco (Dec 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> Hmmm...so there's a Warfield list...hmmm...must investigate!



An excellent Reformed list. It was much more active in the past, before Andy Webb (who is a GREAT guy) graduated from seminary and became the pastor of a church plant. He's very busy now. It is a yahoo group.


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