# Divine Hope Reformed Bible Seminary



## mvdm (Jun 4, 2012)

The only Reformed seminary I am aware of operating behind the walls of a prison:

Read it about here:

Divine Hope Reformed Bible Seminary


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## rpeters (Jun 7, 2012)

I would like to see an accredited Reformed Seminary working behind the prison walls. When the prisoners get out they need to be seen as not as second class seminary graduates and sadly in presbyterian and reformed circles that is the mentality. When these prisoners get out and they have a full accredited degree they are hopefully seen more as equals could take their degree into any denomination they choose.


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## mvdm (Jun 7, 2012)

rpeters said:


> I would like to see an accredited Reformed Seminary working behind the prison walls.



One step at a time, Robert!  Personally, it has been truly astounding to see the doors that opened such that a Reformed seminary, with the direct assistance and encouragment of the State, is now providing these men Reformed sytematic theology. As we speak, there are other prison systems begging for Divine Hope to branch out into their prison. God does more than we ever imagine!

On your question, I believe there is some level of official educational recognition with the curriculum being used there {actual degrees being conferred}, but I seem to recall that the prison setting itself may impose an impediment to achieving what we would call "accreditation". In other words, accreditating agencies may never confer accreditation there, but I don't know. You could inquire further with Prof. Rev. Brummel through the Divine Hope website to get the straight scoop on that issue.


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## rpeters (Jun 7, 2012)

I know Manny and this has been something he has been pushing for. Is there a way where the degrees will be transferable to say Mid-America once they do get out?


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## mvdm (Jun 7, 2012)

rpeters said:


> I know Manny and this has been something he has been pushing for. Is there a way where the degrees will be transferable to say Mid-America once they do get out?



Great that you know Manny! A wonderful, grace-filled man on fire for the Lord. As he would say, "HalleLUUUUUya!!" 

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do believe the credits would be transferrable to another seminary. Again, I think Rev. Prof. Brummel would know the answer.


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## Tim (Jun 7, 2012)

rpeters said:


> When these prisoners get out and they have a full accredited degree they are hopefully seen more as equals could take their degree into any denomination they choose.



Prison ministry is good and needed, but I can't see how a seminary is appropriate. I did read a bit on the website and it says that one of the purposes is to train men for the work of the ministry. Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime? 

I would support a Bible college and theological instruction toward the edification of incarcerated individuals, but a seminary seems to have a different purpose that would not seem to be appropriate in any way for convicted criminals.


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## Edward (Jun 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?



That brings to mind a series of questions. Does any criminal conviction disqualify one from the pastorate for life? If they don't get prison time, would a conviction be OK? Or if they didn't get caught? And what exactly does blameless mean? It can't mean sinless, because I've never run across a pastor yet that hasn't sinned. 

I'd agree that a prison term should be a big red flag, but sometimes the thin line between those who are convicted and those who aren't is the quality of the attorney that they were able to hire - or not hire.


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## Edward (Jun 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?



That brings to mind a series of questions. Does any criminal conviction disqualify one from the pastorate for life? If they don't get prison time, would a conviction be OK? Or if they didn't get caught? And what exactly does blameless mean? It can't mean sinless, because I've never run across a pastor yet that hasn't sinned. 

I'd agree that a prison term should be a big red flag, but sometimes the thin line between those who are convicted and those who aren't is the quality of the attorney that they were able to hire - or not hire.

And on very rare occasions, someone does get rehabilitated in prison.


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## JS116 (Jun 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?



Good question, my take from this is that with the careful examination of a presbytery or session of elders there shouldn't be a reason why one who is incarcerated shouldn't be able to preach the gospel. 
The apostle Paul could be considered a convicted criminal,one of the worst ones in his age, but by God's irresistible grace he repented and converted to following Christ. I believe if a person has truly repented and believes the gospel,pursues holiness,feels an inward call and see's fruit of an outward calling, which is confirmed by licensed men who am I to be a skeptic of that? As stated we have elders/patsors outside of the prisons,committing all types of heinous sins, with an unrepentant heart and get exalted in their churches every Sunday morning without any form discipline and are in good standing in their denomination. I pray we be willing to examine our own hearts ,quicker than we are to examine others.


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## rpeters (Jun 8, 2012)

*Is it biblical for these men to pursue ministry?*



Tim said:


> Prison ministry is good and needed, but I can't see how a seminary is appropriate. I did read a bit on the website and it says that one of the purposes is to train men for the work of the ministry. Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?
> 
> I would support a Bible college and theological instruction toward the edification of incarcerated individuals, but a seminary seems to have a different purpose that would not seem to be appropriate in any way for convicted criminals.



I believe that if you were probe these men they were not Christians before they went to prison. So, to hold a standard on a unbeliever that is suppose to be a standard for Christians is not only unbibiblical but unethical because it binds people in ways Scripture did not intend. According to your standard, the Apostle Paul would be disqualified for ministry! I do think that once these men get out they will have to work harder to prove their character to the outside audience. I believe it is within the confines of Scripture to help train these men for ministry.


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## rpeters (Jun 8, 2012)

*Is it biblical for these men to pursue ministry?*



Tim said:


> Prison ministry is good and needed, but I can't see how a seminary is appropriate. I did read a bit on the website and it says that one of the purposes is to train men for the work of the ministry. Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?
> 
> I would support a Bible college and theological instruction toward the edification of incarcerated individuals, but a seminary seems to have a different purpose that would not seem to be appropriate in any way for convicted criminals.



I believe that if you were probe these men they were not Christians before they went to prison. So, to hold a standard on a unbeliever that is suppose to be a standard for Christians is not only unbibiblical but unethical because it binds people in ways Scripture did not intend. According to your standard, the Apostle Paul would be disqualified for ministry! I do think that once these men get out they will have to work harder to prove their character to the outside audience. I believe it is within the confines of Scripture to help train these men for ministry.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 8, 2012)

Chuck Colson, now with the Lord, comes to mind, no?

AMR


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## Tim (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay, then, please describe a situation in which it is clear that an individual is _not_ blameless. Please keep in mind that we are not discussing the faith or forgiven state of the individual.


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## Edward (Jun 8, 2012)

JS116 said:


> The apostle Paul could be considered a convicted criminal,one of the worst ones in his age, but by God's irresistible grace he repented and converted to following Christ.


Yet when his conduct was most reprehensible, he was within the bounds of the law; when he boldly preached the gospel, he was imprisoned. 




rpeters said:


> I believe that if you were probe these men they were not Christians before they went to prison.



That may be generally, but not universally, true. And the converse holds as well - just because someone claims that they've been saved in (or before) prison doesn't make it credible.


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## Andres (Jun 8, 2012)

In our Presbytery we have a man who was formerly incarcerated who is now under care. Regrettably, I was absent at the Presbytery meeting where he was actually interviewed and came under care, so I don't know all the details of his past or present life. I do know that our Presbytery interviewed and examined this man and voted to receive him under care. He is now a student at Greenville Seminary and is on track, Lord willing, to receive an MDiv and eventually a call.


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## mvdm (Jun 8, 2012)

There was at least one church I am aware of that asked the Divine Hope board about the propriety of preparing these men for the possibility of for pulpit ministry. As the Board correctly responded, that is a decision to made by the churches, not the seminary. The Board does its screening of the men to be eligible to enter the program using appropriate criteria. Keep in mind that just because one obtains an MDiv does not mean that God has called them to the ministry. Surely we know of non-felon fellows who have MDivs from flagship seminaries that shouldn't be within 50 miles of the pulpit!


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## jogri17 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Chuck Colson


 Chuck Colon was never ordained I believe as a minister..


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## NB3K (Jun 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> Prison ministry is good and needed, but I can't see how a seminary is appropriate. I did read a bit on the website and it says that one of the purposes is to train men for the work of the ministry. Since pastors are to be blameless (it is a clear biblical qualification for an elder), how can this be appropriate for those who have been convicted of a crime?
> I would support a Bible college and theological instruction toward the edification of incarcerated individuals, but a seminary seems to have a different purpose that would not seem to be appropriate in any way for convicted criminals



I'm guessing according to your standard the Apostle Paul would not meet the qualifications for his office either. How many of us have gotten away with the crimes that we commited in the past "pre-conversion"? The only difference between "us" & "them" the "prisoners" is they got caught and we did not!


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