# Dispensationalism, Arminianism and Romans 9



## buggy (May 17, 2010)

Romans 9 to many of us is a very important part that support the Doctrines of Grace - in particular election. 

However, I have encountered Dispensational-Arminians who insist that Romans 9 (Jacob/Esau part) cannot be pointing to election of individual believers, but rather how God chose the nation of Israel etc. 

How can this claim be countered.


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## jason d (May 17, 2010)

Answer: EXEGESIS!

Here is one example -> http://mp3.aomin.org/JRW/Romans9.mp3


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## Bern (May 17, 2010)

Context  Any book or chapter of the bible has to be taken in the context of the whole bible. If you are only allowed to use Romans 9 in your discussion with them, then it'll be quite hard to talk them round. If, however you are able to bring in all the other parts of the bible that prove dispensationalism incorrect into play, then you'll be in a far better position.


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## SemperEruditio (May 17, 2010)

Ummm...doesn't the text give us the answer? 

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are achildren of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 


Otherwise the rest would read:
Rom. 9.19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For [which *[nation]*] resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O *[nation]*, who answers back to God? The *[nation]* molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one *[nation]* for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience *[nations]* of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. ....

So Paul goes from talking about individuals to nations to individuals... Paul is talking about both the nations and the individuals and how salvation is not in the nation of Israel but in the promise made to Israel that all of us called are now partakers of in Christ.


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## Andres (May 17, 2010)

That doesn't make any sense. So is Esau the Gentiles? So God hates all the non-Jews?


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## JM (May 17, 2010)

Nations are made up of individuals.


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## Bern (May 17, 2010)

JM said:


> Nations are made up of individuals.


 
I've said that to Arminians many times but they just ignore you and continue telling you you're wrong.


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