# Tithes and Offerings?...Or Just Offerings?



## Ianterrell (May 2, 2004)

The plate is making its circulation around the church. When we give as believers in the New Covenant are we called to give tithes and offerings...or just offerings? At our church we describe the giving as offerings which I am more comfortable with. The tithes as far as I know went to the maintenance of the old Jewish Temple. Perhaps some would say that the church is that temple? I don't know about that but as of now my conviction is that we are to give cheerfully, liberally, and regularly though not necessarily in the form of a tithe. 

Thoughts?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 2, 2004)

In all honesty, this depends on where you think dispensationally, or, over and against that, [i:21b87da0b5]father[/i:21b87da0b5] Abraham was right in tithing of what good, money, or booty he had gained.

ESV Genesis 14:20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!&quot; And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

ESV Leviticus 27:30 &quot;Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the LORD's; it is holy to the LORD. 32 And every tithe of herds and flocks, every tenth animal of all that pass under the herdsman's staff, shall be holy to the LORD.

ESV Numbers 18:26 &quot;Moreover, you shall speak and say to the Levites, 'When you take from the people of Israel the tithe that I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present a contribution from it to the LORD, a tithe of the tithe.

ESV Deuteronomy 12:17 You may not eat within your towns the tithe of your grain or of your wine or of your oil, or the firstborn of your herd or of your flock, or any of your vow offerings that you vow, or your freewill offerings or the contribution that you present,

ESV Deuteronomy 14:22 &quot;You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 28 &quot;At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns.

ESV Deuteronomy 26:12 &quot;When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the LORD your God, 'I have removed the sacred portion out of my house, and moreover, I have given it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all your commandment that you have commanded me. I have not transgressed any of your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.

ESV 2 Chronicles 31:5 As soon as the command was spread abroad, the people of Israel gave in abundance the firstfruits of grain, wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field. And they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything.
6 And the people of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah also brought in the tithe of cattle and sheep, and the tithe of the dedicated things that had been dedicated to the LORD their God, and laid them in heaps.

ESV Nehemiah 13:12 Then all Judah brought the tithe of the grain, wine, and oil into the storehouses.

Then, in following Christ, he confirmed the continued use of tithing of our &quot;substance&quot;.

ESV Matthew 23:23 &quot;Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. [b:21b87da0b5]These you ought to have done,[/b:21b87da0b5] without neglecting the others.

ESV Luke 11:42 &quot;But woe to you Pharisees! [b:21b87da0b5]For you tithe mint and rue and every herb[/b:21b87da0b5], and neglect justice and the love of God. [b:21b87da0b5]These you ought to have done[/b:21b87da0b5], without neglecting the others.

Everything is God's - and tithing demonstrates our responsibility to demonstrate that before God. Our tithe is saying, &quot;God, I am a faithful steward of your house, and this tithe is a demonstration it belongs to you.&quot;

2 Kings 12:9 Then Jehoiada the priest took a chest, bored a hole in its lid, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as one comes into the house of the LORD; and the priests who kept the door put there all the money brought into the house of the LORD.

Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase; 10 So your barns will be filled with plenty, And your vats will overflow with new wine.

Proverbs is glaringly powerful. &quot;Possessions&quot; and &quot;firstfruits of increase.&quot;

Then, we give offerings.

Genesis 4:4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,

1 Corinthians 16:1 1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

People forget, everything you have is God's, right down to your underwear. You are simply a steward of His possessions. Hopefully, by grace, God is more of a possession to you than your weekly paycheck. To take that money and spend it only thing other than what GOD intended it for (to him as a tithe) is to rob Him.

This is not taken out of context:

Malachi 3:7-11 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,&quot; Says the LORD of hosts. &quot;But you said, 'In what way shall we return?' 8 &quot;Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. 10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this,&quot; Says the LORD of hosts, &quot;If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it. 11 &quot;And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,&quot; Says the LORD of hosts; 

God is upset with the people because the tithes brought in (by the priests) were being &quot;devoured.&quot; They were using the firstfruits of their possessions as a means to &quot;get fat.&quot; (Remember Eli and his sons?) God says he wants His tithe so that His storehouses are filled. Does God need to eat? No, but it is the distribution of the food, the holiness of its purpose distributed to the poor, or to the priest, that makes this abominable. Event he word &quot;tithe&quot; means &quot;a tenth payment&quot; - something owed. &quot;Offerings&quot; are &quot;contributions.&quot; There is what is owed, and what is contributed. Two VERY different things.

If one hoards money, and does not give of his firstfruits, or over in his abundance, he is robbing God.


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## Dan.... (May 2, 2004)

That the tithe predates the Mosaic Covenant is evident in Hebrews 7:6-10, in that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec. This he did long before there was a temple in Jerusalem. Hence, the tithe cannot be spoken of as being a part of the Mosaic Covenant which passed away.

Just as marriage and the sabbath predate the giving of the law at Sanai, so also does the tithe. It is binding on all men in all ages.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Dan....]


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## Dan.... (May 2, 2004)

to Matthew's post above.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 2, 2004)

to Dan's post as well!!


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## Ianterrell (May 2, 2004)

Matt, good post.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 3, 2004)

Also Pastor Way has a good sermon series on tithing if you ask him nicely he may just mail one out you

blade


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

Assuming one accepts that the tithe is appropriate for today, do you reaquire that the the entire tithe go to the local church? Why or why not? Is the individual at liberty to apportion the tithe to ministries other than the local church?


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## fredtgreco (May 3, 2004)

[quote:abb2e494d8][i:abb2e494d8]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:abb2e494d8]
Assuming one accepts that the tithe is appropriate for today, do you reaquire that the the entire tithe go to the local church? Why or why not? Is the individual at liberty to apportion the tithe to ministries other than the local church? [/quote:abb2e494d8]

I think that the tithe is to go to the local church, both as a sign of submission to the elders and because the Church is the instrument that God uses to build the Kingdom of God. I do not think it is appropriate to give the tithe to any parachurch ministry - God never said, I will build my parachurch.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 3, 2004)

To make Fred's point hit home - if it was true that &quot;other ministries&quot; could be tithed to (assuming we understand &quot;tithe&quot; biblically) then A Puritan's Mind could command (not ask) that you tithe to it, upon pain of sinning if you did not. That would go for any parachurch organization like Promise Keepers, or the local yokal healing ministry on the web. Tithing is done to the church, not to any other organizations outside the church. 

There is a great differecne in &quot;donations&quot; to A Puritan's Mind, and &quot;tithing&quot; before God in the midst of the assembly.


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

[quote:48960e7427][i:48960e7427]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:48960e7427]

I think that the tithe is to go to the local church, both as a sign of submission to the elders and because the Church is the instrument that God uses to build the Kingdom of God. I do not think it is appropriate to give the tithe to any parachurch ministry - God never said, I will build my parachurch. [/quote:48960e7427]

OK, is the distinction always local church vs. parachurch? (Sounds congregationalist). Where would things like MNA, MTW, or Covenant Seminary fall? Are they considered parachurch? What about Great Commission Publications (a venture with the OPC)? 

How would you make the case exegetically?

Further, the PCA Book of Church Order says, &quot;The Church recognizes the right of individuals and congregations to labor through other agencies in fulfilling the Great Commission.&quot; (14-1) I take it you would say &quot;labor&quot; there does not include use of tithes.

BCO 54 also speaks of tithes in a very general sense, no reference to &quot;local church&quot;, and of course that section does not have constitutional weight.

I'm trying to find out the boundaries.


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## Dan.... (May 3, 2004)

to Fred and Matthew.


It is interesting (to me at least), that when the apostle spoke on making a collection for the saints in Jerusalem (1 Cor 16:1-3), that this collection was the task of the church. Each individual wasn't saying, &quot;[i:92e53de4d1]Based on the amount by which 'God hath prospered' me, I think I'll send $X to Jerusalem and $Y to Antioch, and then give $Z to my local church.[/i:92e53de4d1]&quot; Rather, the collection was a corporate task. They gave, not as individuals, but as a corporate organism to the church in Jerusalem.

For me to say, &quot;[i:92e53de4d1]Based on the amount that God has blessed me with this week, I think I'll send $X to this group and $Y to this other group and $Z to my church[/i:92e53de4d1]&quot;, such would be individualistic of me. Where has God given [b:92e53de4d1]me[/b:92e53de4d1], personally, the authority to decide what is to be done with His tithe? Would such an idea not take away from the unity of the corporate assembly? Are we not more unified by giving as one group to the saints abroad rather than individually deciding what is to be done with the Lord's money?



[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Dan....]


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## dkicklig (May 3, 2004)

OK, is the distinction always local church vs. parachurch? (Sounds congregationalist). Where would things like MNA, MTW, or Covenant Seminary fall? Are they considered parachurch? What about Great Commission Publications (a venture with the OPC)? 

How would you make the case exegetically?

Further, the PCA Book of Church Order says, &quot;The Church recognizes the right of individuals and congregations to labor through other agencies in fulfilling the Great Commission.&quot; (14-1) I take it you would say &quot;labor&quot; there does not include use of tithes.

BCO 54 also speaks of tithes in a very general sense, no reference to &quot;local church&quot;, and of course that section does not have constitutional weight.

I'm trying to find out the boundaries. [/quote]

In the PCA you tithe to your church, and then the church gives to the denominational organizations based on the number of members in the church. Any giving to MNA, MTW, etc. should go through your churches coffers.


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

[quote:24f0f5f2bd][i:24f0f5f2bd]Originally posted by Dan....[/i:24f0f5f2bd]
 to Fred and Matthew.


It is interesting (to me at least), that when the apostle spoke on making a collection for the saints in Jerusalem (1 Cor 16:1-3), that this collection was the task of the church. Each individual wasn't saying, &quot;[i:24f0f5f2bd]Based on the amount by which 'God hath prospered' me, I think I'll send $X to Jerusalem and $Y to Antioch, and then give $Z to my local church.[/i:24f0f5f2bd]&quot; Rather, the collection was a corporate task. They gave, not as individuals, but as a corporate organism to the church in Jerusalem.

For me to say, &quot;[i:24f0f5f2bd]Based on the amount that God has blessed me with this week, I think I'll send $X to this group and $Y to this other group and $Z to my church[/i:24f0f5f2bd]&quot;, such would be individualistic of me. Where has God given [b:24f0f5f2bd]me[/b:24f0f5f2bd], personally, the authority to decide what is to be done with His tithe? Would such an idea not take away from the unity of the corporate assembly? Are we not more unified by giving as one group to the saints abroad rather than individually deciding what is to be done with the Lord's money?



[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Dan....] [/quote:24f0f5f2bd]


[quote:24f0f5f2bd]
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week [i:24f0f5f2bd]let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, [/i:24f0f5f2bd] that there be no collections when I come. 3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem. 
[/quote:24f0f5f2bd]

What puzzles me about this text is that 1) while written to a primarliy gentile audience it says nothing about the tithe (a Jewish concept), 2) it is speaking to individuals (unless plural &quot;you&quot; in verse 2 is referring to churches) to lay something (how much?) aside. Paul seems to be speaking more of what we colloquially refer to as a &quot;free will offering&quot;.

What am I missing?


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## fredtgreco (May 3, 2004)

Tom,

The key here is oversight. MTW, MNA and other agencies are under the oversight of the Church (at least technically). Focus on the Family is not.



[quote:dfeb99cdfc][i:dfeb99cdfc]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:dfeb99cdfc]
[quote:dfeb99cdfc][i:dfeb99cdfc]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:dfeb99cdfc]

I think that the tithe is to go to the local church, both as a sign of submission to the elders and because the Church is the instrument that God uses to build the Kingdom of God. I do not think it is appropriate to give the tithe to any parachurch ministry - God never said, I will build my parachurch. [/quote:dfeb99cdfc]

OK, is the distinction always local church vs. parachurch? (Sounds congregationalist). Where would things like MNA, MTW, or Covenant Seminary fall? Are they considered parachurch? What about Great Commission Publications (a venture with the OPC)? 

How would you make the case exegetically?

Further, the PCA Book of Church Order says, &quot;The Church recognizes the right of individuals and congregations to labor through other agencies in fulfilling the Great Commission.&quot; (14-1) I take it you would say &quot;labor&quot; there does not include use of tithes.

BCO 54 also speaks of tithes in a very general sense, no reference to &quot;local church&quot;, and of course that section does not have constitutional weight.

I'm trying to find out the boundaries. [/quote:dfeb99cdfc]


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

[quote:4bc9645a56][i:4bc9645a56]Originally posted by dkicklig[/i:4bc9645a56]

In the PCA you tithe to your church, and then the church gives to the denominational organizations based on the number of members in the church. Any giving to MNA, MTW, etc. should go through your churches coffers. [/quote:4bc9645a56]

Well, yes and no. No congregation is required to give to either presbytery or GA agencies. If a Session puts it in their budget, that's fine. There are no penalties for not giving, but there may be additional blessings for giving. More like works of supererogation. :bs2:

But the local church may also give to other non-PCA agencies, some of which are parachurch. So the argument seems to be that the individual must give the tithe to the local church (not the parachurch), but the local church may use this tithe to support parachurch agencies. That's an odd position.


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

[quote:1932121609][i:1932121609]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:1932121609]
Tom,

The key here is oversight. MTW, MNA and other agencies are under the oversight of the Church (at least technically). Focus on the Family is not.

[/quote:1932121609]

Fred,

Thanks for the input.

My local church happens to give some of my tithe money to Focus on the Family, along with other non-ecclesiastical agencies like Westminster Theological Seminary. Where is the logic that says an individual must use the local church as a pass through to a parachurch agency? Or are you suggesting that my local church should not support any parachurch agencies with tithe monies.


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## fredtgreco (May 3, 2004)

[quote:ee6a59b36c][i:ee6a59b36c]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:ee6a59b36c]
[quote:ee6a59b36c][i:ee6a59b36c]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:ee6a59b36c]
Tom,

The key here is oversight. MTW, MNA and other agencies are under the oversight of the Church (at least technically). Focus on the Family is not.

[/quote:ee6a59b36c]

Fred,

Thanks for the input.

My local church happens to give some of my tithe money to Focus on the Family, along with other non-ecclesiastical agencies like Westminster Theological Seminary. Where is the logic that says an individual must use the local church as a pass through to a parachurch agency? Or are you suggesting that my local church should not support any parachurch agencies with tithe monies. [/quote:ee6a59b36c]

Tom,

I think the logic is that the Church is responsible for the task of building the Kingdom, instead of the individual. The Kingdom is a corporate task. So the individual does not decide what is worthy and what is not, but the Church does.

To put it a different way, and I hope I am not being offensive, elders should be better gifted and equiped to determine whether Focus on the Family is a worthwhile cause than the average believer. that is NOT to denigrate the believer, but to elevate the elder. And the elders will be responsible before God for fulfilling their charge in this respect.

That is the difference for me.


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## Dan.... (May 3, 2004)

[quote:7211907fcb]
1) while written to a primarliy gentile audience it says nothing about the tithe (a Jewish concept), 2) it is speaking to individuals (unless plural &quot;you&quot; in verse 2 is referring to churches) to lay something (how much?) aside.
[/quote:7211907fcb]

Some thoughts:
First, Paul speaks of &quot;the collection for the saints&quot;, which singular, not &quot;collections for the saints&quot;.
Second, the &quot;ye shall approve&quot;, in verse 3, is plural...hence, a corporate approval thereof.
Third, the &quot;let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him&quot; implies that this collection was to be porportionate to the prospering of the individuals. Those who have prospered more, would porportionately give more. As to whether this proportionate giving is specifically the tithe, I don't know that we can conclude that from this chapter.
Fourth, aparently this gift to the church in Jerusalem was to be given under the authority of the apostle. This was something that they were instructed on by the leadership of the church. Of course today, we do not have apostles with us, but the application (that the collection is under the authority of the church) still applies. The decision to give to the church at Jerusalem was not a decision of individuals in the church, but was an authoritative decision of the church leaders (which today are the elders). Hence, the pertanent question then is, &quot;Is the collection for the saints that we do today to be under the authority of the elders of the church, or is it to be an individual decision?&quot;


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## Ianterrell (May 3, 2004)

Fred,

I think the position you're standing on is good as a general principle. When dealing with financial instability, such as a low income, what kind of procedure should a church member consider. Obviously the member should give by faith, cheerfully, but what should he do to handle his needs? Should he make his situation known to the congregation?


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## tcalbrecht (May 3, 2004)

[quote:4855e26d82][i:4855e26d82]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:4855e26d82]
Tom,

I think the logic is that the Church is responsible for the task of building the Kingdom, instead of the individual. The Kingdom is a corporate task. So the individual does not decide what is worthy and what is not, but the Church does.

To put it a different way, and I hope I am not being offensive, elders should be better gifted and equiped to determine whether Focus on the Family is a worthwhile cause than the average believer. that is NOT to denigrate the believer, but to elevate the elder. And the elders will be responsible before God for fulfilling their charge in this respect.

That is the difference for me. [/quote:4855e26d82]

Fred,

OK, so how does this jibe with the BCO 14-1; &quot;The Church recognizes [i:4855e26d82]the right of individuals [/i:4855e26d82] and congregations to labor through other agencies in fulfilling the Great Commission.&quot; 

Does not that statement in and of itself indicate the individual has a right to exercise a certain autonomy in carrying out the work of the Great Commission (at least as far as decision making is concerned)?

I want to agree in principle, but the details are getting in my way.


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