# Christian Speed Dating?



## Need 4 Creed (May 10, 2013)

I know I shouldn't react to everything I see on Facebook, but this one really wound me up!


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## matt01 (May 10, 2013)

Why?


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## Pergamum (May 10, 2013)

If finding a wife is a matter of looking through many options and selecting a woman who fits your doctrine, philosophy of life, priorities, etc, it seems that there would be a virtue in having a way to quickly weed out and not waste time on those women who may be pretty but not compatible to you. 

Speed dating and asking a checklist of questions (doctrine, what's your goals in life, what is idea of marriage roles/parenting styles, etc) might be a quick way to determine whether or not to go to the next step and actually get to know someone a little better. 

Finding out someone is not right for you in five minutes and then moving on quickly is better than spending money for supper on them and then finding out they want to be a career woman, are Arminian, and are pro-abortion, etc.


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 10, 2013)

It is strange to me since I believe parental direction is good. That sounds like it is more of a meat market idea. Just saying. Yes, I understand that parents can be influential still but I have seen some good pre stuff done in preparing young adults for getting to know one another. Slow is good. Observation is good.


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## Philip (May 10, 2013)

I know there were halls at Covenant that did this . . . though it was more of a joke than anything else.


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## Pergamum (May 10, 2013)

Randy,

The parental involvement needed for courtship in our increasingly broken Western society is just not possible for most. 

I just read that over a third of children won't reach 18 living in a home with both their parents.



It is not a meat market if sitting across a table in a convention center and not a bar, dressed modestly, and the focus is on answering questions....it is more like a game show or a job interview....


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## JoannaV (May 10, 2013)

A means of making a short list to present to the parents


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> If finding a wife is a matter of looking through many options and selecting a woman who fits your doctrine, philosophy of life, priorities, etc, it seems that there would be a virtue in having a way to quickly weed out and not waste time on those women who may be pretty but not compatible to you.
> 
> Speed dating and asking a checklist of questions (doctrine, what's your goals in life, what is idea of marriage roles/parenting styles, etc) might be a quick way to determine whether or not to go to the next step and actually get to know someone a little better.
> 
> Finding out someone is not right for you in five minutes and then moving on quickly is better than spending money for supper on them and then finding out they want to be a career woman, are Arminian, and are pro-abortion, etc.



I'm pretty confident that questions of doctrine would not be in the top priority, and probably would not even come into it, in the context in which the above event was taking place. 

What is my issue with it? 

1) Self indulgent. The whole concept is about what YOU want, rather than what you can give. 

2) Whe whole concept of 'speed'. Speed should not define this process. If anything the question of finding a partner should be prayerful, careful and not in haste. 

3) It turns the whole question of relationships into something of a business transaction (although I am aware that marriage was more like a business transaction pre-reformation as we see from literature like Othello, Romeo and Juliet, The Duchess of Malfi etc). 

I could say more, but that will do for now . . .


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## Pergamum (May 11, 2013)

> The whole concept is about what YOU want...


What YOU want is a Christian wife with certain specifications. What's wrong with that? 



> Speed should not define this process. If anything the question of finding a partner should be prayerful, careful and not in haste.


Speed is better than wasting time without intentional efforts to find a wife. 

Speed dating helps in not marrying hasty since it causes those in attendance to be more intentional. I know some awkward church folks that seem to want to marry the first person to fall across their path thinking God sent them their way.



> It turns the whole question of relationships into something of a business transaction


A marriage relationship is sort of like a business transaction, is it not? 

You want a wife with certain beliefs, values, skills, etc. She wants a husband with certain traits as well. 

Also, you don't want to spend a decade and thousands of dollars awkwardly meeting girls that don't fit for lunch and spending all that money and time when you could narrow down your list to a few potential candidates that meet your 16-point checklist. 

Once you spend time with someone, especially a pretty girl, your emotions or eyes might begin to be attracted despite your growing awareness that certain things are deal-breakers, 

...example; you find out after 3 wonderful hours of coffee and lunch that your pretty date prays the rosary every day (happened in college). Or that the idea of calvinism makes her irrationally mad (that happened, too). Speed dating can help you find out those deal-breakers within a matter of minutes...without growing emotional attachment.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Pergamum, have you engaged in speed dating?


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## Jack K (May 11, 2013)

This has turned into an intriguing discussion.

My own single years were spent in a large PCA church that had many single women attending. So I had marriage prospects all around me, many (not all) of whom already agreed with me on the major points of doctrine and philosophy of life. I was able to get to know them over time, in the context of the church community, and pursue those I could see were of godly character. I ended up marrying one of them.

Getting to know a woman in a quick interview situation, or even in a "dating relationship" once she passes the interviews, is not the same as getting to know her in community. Character is tested and revealed in community. And godly character, not checklist compatability, is still the _first_ thing that commends a woman to a man.

Not that compatability doesn't matter. I suppose "speed dating" might be a helpful part of the process, especially for those who don't belong to a large enough church community that they can observe plenty of women in less artificial settings. But I feel sorry for those men, that it's come to that. Many of the most important qualities in a woman simply can't be seen in artificial settings, and I fear important matters may be overlooked in the excitement of finding someone who fits the checklist.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Good points Jack. 

I have many of the same concerns. It is a bit like an interview, you are only hearing what the person thinks is true of them, not what is true of them. Only, as you say, in the context of community, do you see a person's values being lived out. 

How many employers, employ someone who shone in an interview, only to later discover that they are just good at putting on a show. On the other hand how many lack confidence in 'selling themselves', but are actually more skilled and have better character? 

To use another analogy, would we take this approach to calling a pastor? Speed viewing, where ministerial candidates are pursued on the basis of how well the performed in a 3 minute (or whatever it is) interview? 

I think Jerome's wisdom is helpful here: 'Haste is of the Devil'.


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## JoannaV (May 11, 2013)

Wasn't this in the context of a church? So it could be people who already have some knowledge of each other, even if very vague.


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## Gforce9 (May 11, 2013)

In these circles, will ministers be trained by auctioneers?


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## seajayrice (May 11, 2013)

I like it. In this age, why not bring technology and modern efficiencies to bear in the marital space? Or perhaps one would advocate using ancient surgical techniques in the 21st century?


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Gforce9 said:


> In these circles, will ministers be trained by auctioneers?



No, Car Sales Managers: They also specialise in trade-ins.


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## Pergamum (May 11, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Good points Jack.
> 
> I have many of the same concerns. It is a bit like an interview, you are only hearing what the person thinks is true of them, not what is true of them. Only, as you say, in the context of community, do you see a person's values being lived out.
> 
> ...




You wrote:



> you are only hearing what the person thinks is true of them, not what is true of them



That happens in dating as well.


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## Need 4 Creed (May 11, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> Need 4 Creed said:
> 
> 
> > Good points Jack.
> ...



Of course, but not in the same way. The intensity and condensity of SD does not allow for a person's behaviour to show forth in the way that doing something with a group of friends does.


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## Pergamum (May 11, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Good points Jack.
> 
> I have many of the same concerns. It is a bit like an interview, you are only hearing what the person thinks is true of them, not what is true of them. Only, as you say, in the context of community, do you see a person's values being lived out.
> 
> ...




You wrote:



> To use another analogy, would we take this approach to calling a pastor? Speed viewing, where ministerial candidates are pursued on the basis of how well the performed in a 3 minute (or whatever it is) interview?



The analogy doesn't fit. One does not make the final selection of a pastor after only a quick viewing, nor does a church invite every single possible candidate to come and spend extended times preaching to your congregation. You fill out an application or do a short interview. If deal-breakers emerge, you cut your losses with a minimum of time and energy expended. After a list of possible candidates emerge, you interview further and even extend an invitation for the candidates to spend time with the congregation.

Such a screening process in dating seems like a good stewardship of time and resources.


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## Pergamum (May 11, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> Pergamum, have you engaged in speed dating?



J.J.,

I have never engaged in speed dating, but I support the concept highly. 

I went to a secular college. I knew that I was not called to singleness. I also knew that I needed a spouse of a particular type for what I wanted to do in life. 

If there was a way to simply narrow one's search field like an internet search engine and type in my specifications to get 10-20 possible candidates, that would be ideal: 

Example - "Wanted: pretty, healthy, calvinistic baptist girl wanting to serve in missions, who has a work ethic of Carolyn Ingles from Little House on the Prairie, holds to traditional gender and marriage roles, considers her husband her head, is willing and able to home-school, won't nag, knows how to treat the sick, and willing to live frugally."

I remember despairing over finding a wife that would fit into what I felt to be my calling. Most Western woman nowadays don't want to follow a husband but many have their own dreams that remain separate from being a good wife and mother, and many have ambitious career goals as well. 

It was very discouraging to repeatedly spend time and money and emotional energy to date girls that one later discovers are totally incompatible. 

I dated one girl that reacted strongly against predestination (after a month of dating, when I was already growing attached), another turned out to be a devout Roman Catholic after a wonderful lunch-time date that got my hopes up. A pretty face and charming personality can make all but the most committed single men begin to compromise their rigid beliefs ("maybe they will change" or "Maybe I can teach them" pops into one's mind...but "missionary dating" is ill-advised).

Some sort of questionnaire or time-limited interview process can allow one to screen people for "deal-breakers" quickly. One is then free to concentrate only on those that pass through one's checklist of non-negotiables. 

This is not to say that one's courtship process will be short or hasty, but the screening process upfront will be quicker and more restrictive. It is best to break up or discontinue dating someone BEFORE emotional attachment or any amount of physical intimacy transpires. 

Some cold logic, some questionnaires/interviews, and even inter-church cooperation might help tomorrow's reformed believers find spouses in a better way than the normal dating scene to be found in America today.


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## Tim (May 11, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> This is not to say that one's courtship process will be short or hasty, but the screening process upfront will be quicker and more restrictive. It is best to break up or discontinue dating someone BEFORE emotional attachment or any amount of physical intimacy transpires.



This is quite sensible. I have found that one of the most important screening questions that I need to ask is, "do you want to be a stay-at-home wife and mother?". Unfortunately, I have found that there are women, even within my own denomination, that are not willing to give up their career. As I go along, I have come to understand that I should ask these questions early on because it is a deal breaker.


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## THE W (May 21, 2013)

maybe "speed dating" is the wrong way to put it. its more about getting to know where a women's head and heart is at.

1. do you want to be a stay at home wife and mother?
2. what i your understanding and opinion of the doctrine of grace?
3. do you see scripture as the the Word of God and how highly do you esteem scripture as the authority in your life?(ask her various doctrinal questions to see if her loyalties lie more with culture and pragmatism than the Word of God)
4. can you cook?(not a deal breaker)

just some examples of questions you would ask someone to know where they stand on things and trust me, no one is gonna lie to you. you honestly and plainly state what you expect from a wife and if she doesnt like it, she'll say so. for the most part, aside from attraction, i want to know if she truly has saving faith as a christian and submits to the will of God in her life. she doesnt have to be perfect, she just has to be open. a heart of good soil. sanctification is a process


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## Vladimir (May 21, 2013)

Greetings from Russia,

This is my first post on this forum. I must say that, listening to Reformed pastors' sermons, I expected something more of the American Reformed community than brothers actually pondering dating.

I do not want to offend anyone who supports this view or has even employed this to find a wife that is a blessing to them. But please do point me towards verses that support "dating" and "screening" in any way.
God did not create Adam and Eve, and then Kathy, Mary and Susie, so that at least one of them "passed the screening". Abraham did not ask his servant to go and find someone who fits his specifications.

I am sorry, but I believe this approach calls for a rebuke for not trusting Him to make good on His gracious and wonderful promises, and taking matters into your own hands.


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## Pergamum (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir,

Regarding biblical support for "screening" potential spouses: in the Old Testament there are various injunctions against dating the Philistines or the pagan tribes around them. And Paul tells us not to be unequally yoked. So, a process to help getting "equally yoked" (or hitched) seems reasonable.


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## Vladimir (May 21, 2013)

Dear Pergamum,



Pergamum said:


> In the Old Testament there are various injunctions against dating the Philistines or the pagan tribes around them


You are right, and my very example about Abraham fits into the point you are making. Genesis 24:3-4 "And I will make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I live, but you will go to my country and to my relatives, and take a wife for my son Isaac."

This goes perfectly in line with "unequal yoke" and His intention to wipe out the Canaanites instead of make them part of His people. It does not say "that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the _Arminians_, among whom I live". Nor does it say "you will go to my country and to _those that fit_, and take a _couple of options_ for my son Isaac".



Pergamum said:


> And Paul tells us not to be unequally yoked.


I am sorry, but you are taking his words out of context.


> Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Unequally yoked with unbelievers is not the same as "not of a particular type for what you want to do". Even if you do not believe that God will provide you with a spouse (which He promised to do) when He sees fit, then any "screening" warranted by the Scripture would be reduced to one simple question.

It is clear that not trusting Him in any small matter is sin. And this is no small matter.

Remember, Moses was not even allowed to go into the promised land because of this. Or remember Saul; the only thing different here is that he was to wait for Samuel, and we are to wait for our spouses. He did wait for the allotted seven days, and he did want what was best for his people, and he did do something that he was theoretically allowed to do. But he still was untrusting and disobedient.

This is simply not our department, to go and just pick.


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## Gforce9 (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> Greetings from Russia,
> 
> This is my first post on this forum. I must say that, listening to Reformed pastors' sermons, I expected something more of the American Reformed community than brothers actually pondering dating.
> 
> ...



Vladimir,
While I'm not sure what I think of this method (speed dating), there is a foundational issue that has been raised in your post: How does a fallen creature, with the noetic effects of the Fall at work, though redeemed, come to know the will of God in matters like this? You haven't told us by what process one comes to know this for sure, but it seems to me some type of special revelation is required. Can you elaborate on this?


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## Vladimir (May 21, 2013)

Dear Greg,



Gforce9 said:


> You haven't told us by what process one comes to know this for sure, but it seems to me some type of special revelation is required.


I don't think that this should involve "knowing the will of God" or requiring any sort of special revelation. Again, not our department. We have a perfect revelation, in which the will of our Lord is made clear. The issue is whether dating and "screening" are found in it or can be extrapolated from it. I argue that the are not and they cannot. 
If they are or can, then I am mistaken, and the practice is in line with anything the Lord has in store for us, therefore, no problem there.


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## Pergamum (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir,

I am not understanding you.

Do you mean that we merely ask a potential spouse whether they are Christian? Are you advocating that we should not "screen" further to make sure they are of a particular type of Christian, such as a home-maker or calvinist or a pro-choice "christian," etc?


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## Vladimir (May 21, 2013)

Dear Pergamum,

What I mean is, the whole dating approach is unbiblical.

If you would follow me, 

Marriage is something created by God (that means, we are not the authors of it)
Marriage is a calling (that means, there is a plan behind it for the called person. And both people are called)
Marriage is an end of a period of singleness (which is also a calling, that means, there is a purpose why we are single)
What do you do then, when you go and look for a mate? If you are the instigator, not Him, I believe you have over-stepped your boundaries. You basically imply that God needs you to look for a mate in order to give you one. Or that He is not willing to give you one until you go and look. Furthermore, you forfeit your gift of singleness that He just might have plans for.
And last but not least - He not only has to go and send your Eve to you, but she has to fit some of your requirements. That means, provided you do not marry the first one you date, for some reason He gave you a couple of Rebeccas or Rachels, before leading her to you.

Look at Adam. He did not think "Okay, I need a helpmate". Until the point he met Eve, he was not even aware of the concept of having another human being around. He was fulfilling God's will for him without thinking whether there is something else in store for him.


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## Cymro (May 21, 2013)

I'm with you all the way Vladimir. It seems that the church is adopting more and more the methods 
of the world. Gone are the social contacts, church contacts, providential contacts, just line up the girls,
or the men, eeny meeny miny mo, and take your pick for a trial run. This business of cutting costs and
wasting time is far removed from prayerfully seeking God's will and purpose. Should I marry? should it be
later? Where is God's special for me? What would you have me to do Lord? That can be a slow business
and a trial of ones faith, which thank God worketh patience. The Church in question is about 6 miles from
my home, and is an Apostolic Church which of course is Arminian, and without being unkind I would expect
this kind of event to be supported by them, because of that doctrine. The Reformed should have a different
perspective. If one is worried about time, then the God who made time made plenty of it. In due time he will,
if it's His will, provide a Rebekah for Isaac and a David for Bathsheba.
"Delight thyself in God; He'll give
thine heart's desire to thee.
Thy way to God commit, Him trust,
it bring to pass shall He."


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir, a couple of things:

1) God requires us to make choices and act in accordance with His will. Sometimes that may mean being proactive, not reactive. As a single young man, I don't know how God is going to work in my life or whether He is going to give me a spouse. However, it also seems most likely that I will meet her, we will start going on dates, and figure out together whether God wants us to get married. I'm not exactly sure how that means that I'm not trusting the will of God---seems that it's exactly trying to discern the will of God in this manner.

2) However one meets a Godly spouse, it is through Divine Providence. Period. One's heart attitude is certainly important, but let's not pretend that the act of dating is necessary an attempt to force God's will a la Jacob.

3) If God has placed on my heart the desire for a wife, what exactly is the issue when I find a Godly young woman and we wish to get to know one another better so that we may discern whether we ought to get married? I'm still not sure what problem we have. The narratives that you have described seem to be out of the ordinary.



Vladimir said:


> If you are the instigator, not Him, I believe you have over-stepped your boundaries. You basically imply that God needs you to look for a mate in order to give you one.



And there are times when God is instigating you to get off your backside and take action. Or are we suggesting the Jane Austen method of waiting around for someone to ask you to dance? Ain't gonna happen.



Cymro said:


> Gone are the social contacts, church contacts, providential contacts, just line up the girls,
> or the men, eeny meeny miny mo, and take your pick for a trial run. This business of cutting costs and
> wasting time is far removed from prayerfully seeking God's will and purpose. Should I marry? should it be
> later? Where is God's special for me? What would you have me to do Lord? That can be a slow business
> and a trial of ones faith, which thank God worketh patience.



Jeff, may I humbly suggest that these two things are not mutually exclusive. The couple of times that I've tried to date someone unsuccessfully, it wasn't because of a lack of trust in God. The young women in question were Godly and (frankly) rather beautiful, and fit all the requirements and more. Instead, God was trying to teach me things, and is still doing so. As for how you meet someone, of course that's the will of God. It may be through church contacts or family friends or going to a Christian college etc or it may not. You don't know. What you ought to do is to try to be the kind of person that a godly young woman or young man would want to marry, by growing in grace and staying in word. But that doesn't mean you just wait around for that person to show up either. You might try going to Bible conferences (my parents met at one) or small groups, or whatever. Is being proactive necessarily an attempt to pre-empt the will of God? No.

Granted, I wouldn't do speed-dating, but that's only because I could never take the exercise seriously as a way to meet a spouse.


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## Vladimir (May 21, 2013)

Dear Jeff,

It is good that we agree, and you made a good point about social and church contacts.
I am not sure about using David and Bathsheba as an example, though.

Dear Philip,


Philip said:


> God requires us to make choices and act in accordance with His will. Sometimes that may mean being proactive, not reactive.


Indeed. But there is proactive, and there is David and Batsheba (thank you Jeff). Dating is, I think, closer to latter than former.
Our proactiveness should be prayer. Look at numerous examples in the Bible when men were proactive. I find Samuel and Kings to be a great example: you see men acting thinking it will be okay, and men praying before acting. And you see the difference in the outcome. Look at our Lord: he prayed for the whole night before He chose the twelve! In the words of Paul Washer "If you haven't prayed for the whole night before a tough decision, behold: we found a man stronger than Jesus".


Philip said:


> As a single young man, I don't know how God is going to work in my life or whether He is going to give me a spouse. However, it also seems most likely that I will meet her, we will start going on dates, and figure out together whether God wants us to get married. I'm not exactly sure how that means that I'm not trusting the will of God





Philip said:


> I find a Godly young woman and we wish to get to know one another better so that we may discern whether we ought to get married


I am right with you, Philip. I am all for courtship. Lord bless you if you are a man biblically prepared for marriage, and you meet a Christian woman and believe it was Divine Providence, and you pray about her, and she seems like a woman biblically prepared for marriage. But you court her. Not date.


Philip said:


> If God has placed on my heart the desire for a wife


If you are familiar with the concept of Total Depravity, you should know better than trust your heart.


Philip said:


> Or are we suggesting the Jane Austen method of waiting around for someone to ask you to dance?


All I am saying is you should not be preoccupied with looking for a mate. If you walk His ways and do what is good in His eyes, He will provide. And it will not be meat market.


Philip said:


> As for how you meet someone, of course that's the will of God. It may be through church contacts or family friends or going to a Christian college etc or it may not. You don't know. What you ought to do is to try to be the kind of person that a godly young woman or young man would want to marry, by growing in grace and staying in word.


This is very wise.


Philip said:


> But that doesn't mean you just wait around for that person to show up either. You might try going to Bible conferences (my parents met at one) or small groups, or whatever.


Again, it is a calling. If He looks at you as He did on Adam and says "It is not good that he be alone. I will make him a helper suitable for him", He will not let you miss her. Never. But if He does not do that, and you go and find someone, you are saying that you know what you need better than He does. That is very dangerous.
And I do not believe that you go to Bible conferences and small groups to meet someone.

Look at biographies of our Christian brothers. George Muller wanted to be a missionary so much that he though a wife would slow him down. But he met Mary, who was eight years older, not really his type, but a sister of a man he respected, and they suddenly fell in love. He was temporarily staying in a small town, preaching and preparing to go where Spirit leads him. And his wife was a great blessing for him all his life, exactly what he needed, and contrary to what he thought he did.
C. S. Lewis liked to be single and was never going to marry, but a friend needed a visa, and she asked him to be her husband on paper. He agreed and, what do you know, they fell in love. He was, I believe, around 55. She was married before, but it turned out that her ex-husband had been married before. So in the eyes of the Lord she was an adulteress.
They were happily married several years before she succumbed to cancer; he wrote his famous work "Grief Observed" when she died.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

I am sorry if I come off as combatant, this was not my intention.


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## Gforce9 (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> Dear Pergamum,
> 
> What I mean is, the whole dating approach is unbiblical.
> 
> ...





Cymro said:


> I'm with you all the way Vladimir. It seems that the church is adopting more and more the methods
> of the world. Gone are the social contacts, church contacts, providential contacts, just line up the girls,
> or the men, eeny meeny miny mo, and take your pick for a trial run. This business of cutting costs and
> wasting time is far removed from prayerfully seeking God's will and purpose. Should I marry? should it be
> ...



Fellas,
I think we agree that what passes for "dating", at least here in the 'States, is questionable at best.....and that probably too gracious. There is no intention of commitment, but only self-seeking pleasure. There has to be _some_ process, however, unless a woman knocks on your door or falls out of a tree and says "God sent me; I'm here to marry you" . We have secondary causes and discernment in the mix.


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> I find Samuel and Kings to be a great example: you see men acting thinking it will be okay, and men praying before acting. And you see the difference in the outcome. Look at our Lord: he prayed for the whole night before He chose the twelve!



Oh I would never go on a date without praying!



Vladimir said:


> I am right with you, Philip. I am all for courtship. Lord bless you if you are a man biblically prepared for marriage, and you meet a Christian woman and believe it was Divine Providence, and you pray about her, and she seems like a woman biblically prepared for marriage. But you court her. Not date.



Please enlighten me as to the difference and explain where the concept of courtship is in Scripture. I've seen dating relationships that were models of how Christians ought to behave, and courtships where the people shouldn't have gotten involved to begin with. My objection to courtship is that too often it's about pleasing parents and measuring up to parental standards rather than about truly seeking the will of God.



Vladimir said:


> If you are familiar with the concept of Total Depravity, you should know better than trust your heart.



True enough. But I am redeemed and born again through union with Christ. Is a desire to be married necessarily sinful? Lust certainly is, but it seems to me that a man who desires a wife desires a good thing.



Vladimir said:


> He will not let you miss her. Never. But if He does not do that, and you go and find someone, you are saying that you know what you need better than He does. That is very dangerous.



Certainly it is. My question is merely whether you yourself might be the means that God uses. Seeking a Godly wife does not necessarily mean that you are not trusting His will any more than seeking employment (which is also a calling).



Gforce9 said:


> I think we agree that what passes for "dating", at least here in the 'States, is questionable at best.....and that probably too gracious. There is no intention of commitment, but only self-seeking pleasure. There has to be some process, however, unless a woman knocks on your door or falls out of a tree and says "God sent me; I'm here to marry you" . We have secondary causes and discernment in the mix.



Hit the nail on the head there, Greg. Wisdom and discernment and an honest seeking of God's will are what are important, not whether you call it dating or courtship.


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## THE W (May 21, 2013)

dont know if i would compare speed dating to "going into" another man's wife and then having him set up to be killed so i can marry her. doing that goes far beyond asking a women if she is willing to be a stay at home mom.

i know for myself as a single guy, the first thing i need to do is put myself in a position to be a covenant husband and father, THEN i can look for a covenant wife and mother. the bible lays out the role of the husband/father and wife/mother.


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

THE W said:


> i know for myself as a single guy, the first thing i need to do is put myself in a position to be a covenant husband and father



Flesh this out.


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## arapahoepark (May 21, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> Again, it is a calling. If He looks at you as He did on Adam and says "It is not good that he be alone. I will make him a helper suitable for him", He will not let you miss her. Never. But if He does not do that, and you go and find someone, you are saying that you know what you need better than He does. That is very dangerous.
> And I do not believe that you go to Bible conferences and small groups to meet someone.


You have missed what he is saying. We have a tendency to sit around and do nothing like the parable that goes like this: a man was on a boat and it began to sink and he jumped out and floated there for awhile and said a prayer "God please save me from drowning." Another boat comes up and throws him a line and he says,"no thanks, I am fine. I am waiting for God to save me." A helicopter flies overhead spots him and offers the same help via line. He replies the same thing.
I don't see why we can't be proactive. That's how it used to be and still is. Women want us to have confidence to ask them out, almost all of them do. Perhaps it varies culture to culture but, here in America that is how it works. How is being proactive negating God's decreed will? Didn't God will everything?


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## THE W (May 21, 2013)

Philip said:


> THE W said:
> 
> 
> > i know for myself as a single guy, the first thing i need to do is put myself in a position to be a covenant husband and father
> ...



esphesians 5:25-29

in the same Way Christ loves the church a husband should love his wife. provide for her, edify her with the word, and serve her in laying down his life for her in the same way Christ layed down his life for the church. and also baring Godly offspring as commanded in malachi 2:15.

do you have a job that will allow you to pay the bills and provide for your families basic needs? do you have a working knowledge of scripture in order to teach your wife and your children how to glorify God with their lives while also setting an example of such by living by the Holy Spirit thats working in you?


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

THE W said:


> do you have a job that will allow you to pay the bills and provide for your families basic needs?



This is the one I question. Marriage is too often treated as the capstone to an adult life---the pinnacle once you've gotten all your ducks in a row. I'd say it can be the cornerstone. I'm about to enter seminary, meaning that my ability to provide will be severely limited, yet I know any number of pastors who would claim that seminary was the most fruitful period of their marriage! That the times of hardship were the times that they grew most! I'm just skeptical of this claim that I shouldn't even look for a wife until I've reached financial whatever---that may be undue delay of marriage (WLC Q139).


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## THE W (May 21, 2013)

Philip said:


> THE W said:
> 
> 
> > do you have a job that will allow you to pay the bills and provide for your families basic needs?
> ...



depends on what the hardship was. hardship in that holding down a job that pays the bills while attending seminary was a heavy load to carry or hardship as in im totally incapable of providing for a family while in seminary.

i'd advise against the latter. women wont be extinct when you're done with seminary or at least when you can hold down a job that allows you to provide.


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

THE W said:


> depends on what the hardship was. hardship in that holding down a job that pays the bills while attending seminary was a heavy load to carry or hardship as in im totally incapable of providing for a family while in seminary.
> 
> i'd advise against the latter. women wont be extinct when you're done with seminary or at least when you can hold down a job that allows you to provide.



I'll just say that I'm looking at 5-7 years of grad school. Certainly women won't be extinct when I get my PhD (and I'll definitely be working part-time to support myself), but God may bring the right person before I'm done. His timing isn't yours or mine and it doesn't fit your nice life schedule.


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## Lindsay (May 21, 2013)

Speaking of screening processes, how does a _woman _screen a man? Say she doesn't have a Christian father. Is it appropriate for the woman to ask an interested man to go over a list of questions? If you think not, does it change things if it's a long-distance relationship (cutting down on opportunities to casually drop the big questions)? I dated a guy for four months only to end up in a situation similar to Pergamum's and Tim's. I hesitated to bust out a list. Meanwhile, the man didn't ask the big questions. When I thought he was asking, I started in on complementarianism. He smiled and said he was merely wondering how many children I wanted... Eventually we discovered we had incompatible views of the roles of men and women, education, and child-rearing. 

(Should I repost this question elsewhere?)


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## THE W (May 21, 2013)

Philip said:


> THE W said:
> 
> 
> > depends on what the hardship was. hardship in that holding down a job that pays the bills while attending seminary was a heavy load to carry or hardship as in im totally incapable of providing for a family while in seminary.
> ...



but you're gonna MAKE it fit!

do you brother. i personally wouldnt put myself or the family i would have through something like that voluntarily, but its not insurmountable. who knows, maybe this is God's calling on your life. unlike married couples with having children, single people arent commanded to get married(thanks Paul).


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## Philip (May 21, 2013)

THE W said:


> but you're gonna MAKE it fit!



I'll adjust my life schedule to fit God's plans for me. If God wants me to get married in seminary, I get married in seminary.



Lindsay said:


> Is it appropriate for the woman to ask an interested man to go over a list of questions?



I'd say bring the questions up.


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## Pergamum (May 21, 2013)

Lindsay said:


> Speaking of screening processes, how does a _woman _screen a man? Say she doesn't have a Christian father. Is it appropriate for the woman to ask an interested man to go over a list of questions? If you think not, does it change things if it's a long-distance relationship (cutting down on opportunities to casually drop the big questions)? I dated a guy for four months only to end up in a situation similar to Pergamum's and Tim's. I hesitated to bust out a list. Meanwhile, the man didn't ask the big questions. When I thought he was asking, I started in on complementarianism. He smiled and said he was merely wondering how many children I wanted... Eventually we discovered we had incompatible views of the roles of men and women, education, and child-rearing.
> 
> (Should I repost this question elsewhere?)



Hi Lindsey:

Yes. I believe you ought to go into any "date" or "courting situation" with at least a mental list of "deal-breakers" and "ideals." There is nothing wrong with a checklist.

You ought to screen any prospective suitors.

You ought to weed out anyone that does not match...BEFORE you get emotionally attached or too physically attracted. 

The problem is that often people go out to "have a good time" and they grew closer even though they are poor marriage prospects. Then, it is more painful when you realize that the relationship must end...or the parties involved compromise their principles or fool themselves into thinking that their religious convictions or family/gender views are only a minor part of marriage when, in fact, they are huge.

It seems amazing that some Christians research buying a new car very deeply, but in the area of looking for a spouse remain very unintentional. I think the more intentional we are the better.


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## THE W (May 22, 2013)

Lindsay said:


> Speaking of screening processes, how does a _woman _screen a man? Say she doesn't have a Christian father. Is it appropriate for the woman to ask an interested man to go over a list of questions? If you think not, does it change things if it's a long-distance relationship (cutting down on opportunities to casually drop the big questions)? I dated a guy for four months only to end up in a situation similar to Pergamum's and Tim's. I hesitated to bust out a list. Meanwhile, the man didn't ask the big questions. When I thought he was asking, I started in on complementarianism. He smiled and said he was merely wondering how many children I wanted... Eventually we discovered we had incompatible views of the roles of men and women, education, and child-rearing.
> 
> (Should I repost this question elsewhere?)


Other than waiting to long to do it, you did the right thing.


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## Cymro (May 22, 2013)

Speed dating is not a new enterprise, Solomon was an entrepreneur in this field. He had 700
wives and 300 concubines and his wives turned away his heart! Seriously, if one is desirous
of a wife then it is a matter of serious prayer. That is why I concluded with the psalmist's 
exhortation to delight in the Lord and He will give thee the desires of thy heart. It is not just a matter
of prayer but delighting in the Lord. We often do not desire with a pressing necessity that which we
pray for. 
As for David and Bathsheba, whilst the means employed by David are not to be imitated, the providence 
of God is not to be denied. From the union came forth the One to whom we are married too for ever. The 
circumstances that direct our paths are known to the Lord, He knoweth the way that we take. Looking back 
on my life, the circumstances that governed our eventual marriage are incredible. Friends at 16, which burgeoned
into courtship and love; parental disapproval; clandestine meetings; elopement; marriage and then conversion,
in hindsight it would be an ideal plot for a film! But O the wonder of providence that brought it to pass. And we
are still courting after 55 years
"I will instruct thee, and thee teach
the way that thou shalt go;
And, with mine eye upon thee set,
I will direction show.


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## Vladimir (May 22, 2013)

Philip said:


> Wisdom and discernment and an honest seeking of God's will are what are important, not whether you call it dating or courtship.


You are right. I may have missed the point of the debate somewhere along the road. I apologize.
Please let me recap. 
The points that have been stated and I wholeheartedly support as biblical principles:

Seeking His wisdom, being a man of prayer and being constantly conformed to the image of Christ is always our primary priority
Being proactive is good
Being open to social contacts with women and to marriage opportunities is not sinful in itself if not prioritized over others
The points that have been stated that I find less than biblical:

Lord needs us to create opportunities for Him to bless us with a marriage prospect
We need to make pursuit of social contacts with single women our priority
We need some sort of secret revelation to identify God's will
Dating and courtship are the same thing, except for the parents pleasing (and pleasing parents is somehow contradictory to God's will)
Philip, you are right in your overall approach. But prayerfully doing something unbiblical does not make it biblical. I hope we can agree on this at least.
I am sorry if I am being forceful in my arguments, it is just that I find it hard to stomach the thought of Christian dating. It sounds like Christian smoking, at least to me.

If:

You fulfil the Scriptural requirements of a future father and husband
You find yourself interested in a woman
She is a woman who fulfils the Scriptural requirements of a future mother and wife
You pray about her and feel that the Spirit is not leading you away from her
Then, if dating was something that the Scriptures could allow, I would see no problem if you dated her. But dating is contradictory to some of the most basic principles of relationship between brethren, as well as between man and woman. Here are the basic principles of courtship and their biblical foundation.

*Commitment to marriage*. Courtship begins with you expressing your intention to marry this woman. *Why*: Scripture does not support any romantical relationship between man and woman except marriage.
Dating begins with you being romantically interested in someone, and maybe there is marriage down the road, if such and such.
*Accountability*. Your parents/older brother/guardian and her parents/older brother/guardian and the church elders are involved and supervise. Parents and/or Godly church couples mentor. *Why*: To guard your and her affections (Proverbs 4:23) by not allowing you to get too close; To submit to authority of parents (Exodus 20:12), authority of church (Hebrews 13:17), and authority of wise men (all over Proverbs).
Dating is you stepping other your parents, church authority, counsel of wise people, and relying on yourself to not become too emotionally involved while getting very close.
*Boundaries*. You are never to be left alone together. *Why*: In the words of Paul Washer, "You are told by the Scriptures to combat the enemy of men hand-to-hand, but when it comes to sexual temptation, you are told to flee" (1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22).
This is my ten cents. Let me also quote an article on biblical courtship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_courtship):


> Emphasis of the importance of marriage as an opportunity for Christian service rather than a selfish endeavor.
> Emphasis of the importance of singleness before marriage as a time for greater Christian service in the community, rather than a time to be employed in selfish pursuits.
> Emphasis of the importance of counsel and evaluation by family and friends as a relationship progresses.
> Emphasis of the importance of honesty and getting to know one another as real people in "normal life" during courtship (as contrasted with the dating habit of meeting during special events and entertainment while on one's best behavior.)


But I am basing my convictions on dating as it is in secular circles in Russia. Maybe there is some practice of Christian dating in America that is different from courtship as described above but still perfectly biblical.


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## Philip (May 22, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> I am sorry if I am being forceful in my arguments, it is just that I find it hard to stomach the thought of Christian dating. It sounds like Christian smoking, at least to me.



That may not be the best analogy on this board, given the number of Godly men here who enjoy the odd pipefull or cigar (I usually say grace over mine). Just sayin'.



Vladimir said:


> Commitment to marriage. Courtship begins with you expressing your intention to marry this woman. Why: Scripture does not support any romantical relationship between man and woman except marriage.
> Dating begins with you being romantically interested in someone, and maybe there is marriage down the road, if such and such.



I don't buy it. What you've just described is called engagement or betrothal. To determine whether you ought to get married to someone there has to be some period where you are both trying to get to know one another in a one-on-one context. Yeah, it's messy and there's always the possibility of failure, but asking someone to marry you right off the bat comes across the wrong way even to most Godly women.

Both dating and courtship are about getting to know each other so that you can determine whether God wants you to get married. I've seen courtship treated the way you describe (as a kind of pre-engagement) and in almost every case, the relationship was unhealthy because it became about what the parents wanted, and pleasing the community, not about pleasing God. The patterns established before marriage are the ones that will continue into it.



Vladimir said:


> Accountability. Your parents/older brother/guardian and her parents/older brother/guardian and the church elders are involved and supervise. Parents and/or Godly church couples mentor.



Not unique to courtship. Of course you should get to know each other's families and be seeking counsel from a Godly mentor. I take that as a given. My parents did this while dating---and they were very much trusting the Lord with their relationship.



Vladimir said:


> Boundaries. You are never to be left alone together. Why: In the words of Paul Washer, "You are told by the Scriptures to combat the enemy of men hand-to-hand, but when it comes to sexual temptation, you are told to flee"



Here you're fencing the law. Scripture says to flee temptation---absolutely! What does that have to do with going out to eat without a chaperone? Or picking her up in your car? Or taking an afternoon hike in the mountains? How are these activities any more tempting without that third wheel?* Can you point me to where in Scripture it says that these things are wrong? If I'm not mature enough to do these things without giving in to temptation (and the temptation is there with or without a third wheel), then I'm not mature enough to be considering marriage period.

The reason why I have this kind of objection to a courtship-as-the-only-way mentality is because a) courtship isn't in Scripture. It's an attempt to import 19th-century practices into the 21st century---before that, as Jane Austen would attest, you were friends and you got married, or else the marriage was arranged, and financial/social considerations were front and center. b) The biblical principles you mention can be applied just as easily in a dating relationship as in a courtship scenario. Plus I know many Godly Christian young women who would look at me funny if I suggested courtship (if I asked them on a date, they'd just give me the old "it's not you it's me" thing).

I am not saying that courtship is wrong, merely that I've seen it not work and lead to problems down the road more often than not.

*(ok, the make-out-in-the-car thing comes to mind, but the state of my vehicle's back seat is a major deterrent---there are most likely microscopic civilizations living there).


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## Miss Marple (May 22, 2013)

Lindsay,

in regards to your question, can a pastor or elder at your church do some screening for you?

If they are like minded with you it could be helpful.

You could tell them your deal breakers, and they may even counsel you as to the pros and cons of each item.

Then, if a man expresses interest in you, maybe you see him a few times, then you can say, "Pastor Smith is interested in meeting with you, would you be open to that?" And if yes, Pastor Smith could congenially grill him with no embarrassment on your part - and report faithfully back to you. Also, Pastor Smith could hopefully give you his personal opinion as to the man's general personality and spiritual health.


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## Vladimir (May 23, 2013)

Philip said:


> That may not be the best analogy on this board, given the number of Godly men here who enjoy the odd pipefull or cigar (I usually say grace over mine)


Really? No temple of God that is not our own, bought with a price, abstain from appearance of evil?


Philip said:


> I don't buy it. What you've just described is called engagement or betrothal. To determine whether you ought to get married to someone there has to be some period where you are both trying to get to know one another in a one-on-one context. Yeah, it's messy and there's always the possibility of failure, but asking someone to marry you right off the bat comes across the wrong way even to most Godly women.


Okay, I can agree on dropping the "express marriage intention" part on accord of it being implied. Why are you afraid of "coming across the wrong way" when marriage is, ultimately, the reason why you brought the whole thing up?


Philip said:


> I've seen courtship treated the way you describe (as a kind of pre-engagement) and in almost every case, the relationship was unhealthy because it became about what the parents wanted, and pleasing the community, not about pleasing God.


How is pleasing parents and community contrary to pleasing God? If it was taken to the extreme or one was made at the expense of the other, then that is not the problem of courtship.
Also, I am sorry for your friends, but saying "I saw that, it did not work" is pragmatism, not adhering to scriptural standards.


Philip said:


> Scripture says to flee temptation---absolutely! What does that have to do with going out to eat without a chaperone?


Nothing. You're in a public place.


Philip said:


> Or picking her up in your car? Or taking an afternoon hike in the mountains? How are these activities any more tempting without that third wheel?


Can you honestly say that there is nothing there that can be considered not fleeing temptation? I really can't. If it is just the two of us, and we're both interested in each other, I notice that after a certain amount of time it starts to get really... uncomfortable. In terms of protecting her and my heart. It does not matter how mature and godly we are.


Philip said:


> courtship-as-the-only-way


Not because it is perfect. Because of the alternatives.


Philip said:


> It's an attempt to import 19th-century practices into the 21st century


Yes. For a reason.


Philip said:


> The biblical principles you mention can be applied just as easily in a dating relationship as in a courtship scenario.


Well, then we are in agreement. The main point of disagreement may have been terminology


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## deleteduser99 (May 23, 2013)

arap said:


> Vladimir said:
> 
> 
> > Again, it is a calling. If He looks at you as He did on Adam and says "It is not good that he be alone. I will make him a helper suitable for him", He will not let you miss her. Never. But if He does not do that, and you go and find someone, you are saying that you know what you need better than He does. That is very dangerous.
> ...



"He who *finds* a wife *finds* a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord" - Proverbs 18:22.
"Houses are riches are an inheritance from fathers, but a prudent wife is *from the Lord*." - Proverbs 19:14

"Find" is a verb.
But "find" prayerfully.


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## Miss Marple (May 23, 2013)

Faint heart never won fair lady.


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## Philip (May 23, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> Really? No temple of God that is not our own, bought with a price, abstain from appearance of evil?



Not going to debate this here, but what's good enough for Charles Spurgeon is good enough for me 



Vladimir said:


> Why are you afraid of "coming across the wrong way" when marriage is, ultimately, the reason why you brought the whole thing up?



Because then you're getting ahead of yourself. Of course she knows that marriage ought to be the end goal if all goes well between the two of you, but the women on this board will back me up that trying to talk about getting married right off the bat is a major turn-off.



Vladimir said:


> How is pleasing parents and community contrary to pleasing God? If it was taken to the extreme or one was made at the expense of the other, then that is not the problem of courtship.



Again, the too-structured-and-scripted nature of courtship is the problem. You claim that this is more Scriptural---how so? What passages can you point to that argue for courtship? The only things we directly see in Scripture are betrothal (arranged marriage), elopement, levirate marriage (Ruth and Boaz, for instance), and sin. Nowhere is anything like courtship argued for or described.



Vladimir said:


> Can you honestly say that there is nothing there that can be considered not fleeing temptation? I really can't. If it is just the two of us, and we're both interested in each other, I notice that after a certain amount of time it starts to get really... uncomfortable.



Well it's a heck of a lot more uncomfortable with someone breathing down your necks. If the point is honesty, then there needs to be confidence, meaning that a third person gets in the way. Maybe I'm just generally more of a rule-follower but picking a young lady up and taking her to dinner poses no more temptation to me than at any other time. If you are speaking here of opportunity, well the opportunity for sin is inescapable.



Vladimir said:


> > It's an attempt to import 19th-century practices into the 21st century
> 
> 
> Yes. For a reason.



The 19th century was an era when Phariseeism ran wild in the western world. Pardon me if I'm concerned with seeing whether Scripture commands such practices or whether they are just Christianized _Talmud_. The way I see it, claiming courtship as the Biblical model is fencing the law just as much as determining how far one may travel to visit one's mother on the Lord's Day (my answer: as far as it takes).

Maybe I just have a bad experience with courtships, but they do have this tendency to be about people-pleasing rather than about seeing whether marriage is even a good idea. I've heard plenty of talks on courtship and its principles, and I understand the reasons why people advocate it (I bought into it myself at one time) however it depends just as much on the people involved as dating does.


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## Vladimir (May 24, 2013)

Philip said:


> Because then you're getting ahead of yourself. Of course she knows that marriage ought to be the end goal if all goes well between the two of you, but the women on this board will back me up that trying to talk about getting married right off the bat is a major turn-off.


It is irrelevant to the discussion since we agree on the purpose of dating/courtship, but if God has blessed me with this opportunity, I am not going to be afraid of turning someone off. It is, after all, what I really mean. And I am sure there are ways to be smooth about it. 
But there is a possibility of being rude or making someone uncomfortable. May I propose a poll?


Philip said:


> You claim that this is more Scriptural---how so? What passages can you point to that argue for courtship?


"Thou shalt not date" or "Thou shalt court" is not there, but the principles I mentioned, in my opinion, make a strong case for it.


Philip said:


> Well it's a heck of a lot more uncomfortable with someone breathing down your necks. If the point is honesty, then there needs to be confidence, meaning that a third person gets in the way. Maybe I'm just generally more of a rule-follower but picking a young lady up and taking her to dinner poses no more temptation to me than at any other time. If you are speaking here of opportunity, well the opportunity for sin is inescapable.


Now notice I never argued for chaperones, that's indeed being legalistic. It's the approach that matters. Going out for a coffee together is perfectly in line with the courtship approach. Or having a barbecue with her family. Does that not sound fun? It's a great opportunity to talk, spend time together, not mentioning I would be thrilled to get to know my future in-laws better. Also, I find that just seeing how she behaves around her dad says a great deal about her.


Philip said:


> The 19th century was an era when Phariseeism ran wild in the western world. Pardon me if I'm concerned with seeing whether Scripture commands such practices or whether they are just Christianized Talmud.


I have to confess I am not that familiar with that history. Like you, my only concern is applying the principles I already mentioned. 
It was a great problem for me to flesh out an approach to pre-marriage stuff that was biblical, until I heard about this old-fashioned practice re-emerging in the West. I studied it and found that it makes perfect sense. I also talked to a woman I know, and you know what I heard? That something like this was the dignity, respect and responsibility that they always wished for, while having to settle for less because of what was offered. And I can really relate to that. They are queens. Princesses. And I am willing to do whatever it takes to grow and help other men grow so that they never have to settle for less than what they deserve.


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## Philip (May 24, 2013)

Vladimir said:


> It is irrelevant to the discussion since we agree on the purpose of dating/courtship, but if God has blessed me with this opportunity, I am not going to be afraid of turning someone off.



Pardon me if my southern tendency to be indirect by saying "let's go out" isn't honest enough. Again, most women I know would be creeped out.



Vladimir said:


> Going out for a coffee together is perfectly in line with the courtship approach. Or having a barbecue with her family. Does that not sound fun?



Sounds like dating!



Vladimir said:


> I also talked to a woman I know, and you know what I heard? That something like this was the dignity, respect and responsibility that they always wished for, while having to settle for less because of what was offered.



I guess the problem is that courtship isn't the solution to this problem. Courtship treats the symptoms while ignoring the disease, which is a lack of respect, a lack of personal integrity, a lack of honor, and a lack of restraint. Virtues such as these are what are needed. We need young men and women who fear the Lord and walk with Him.


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## Vladimir (May 25, 2013)

Philip said:


> Sounds like dating!


If it does, and that's the "dating" that you are advocating, then I have been barking at the wrong tree. But my point for these two pastime examples was to avoid being left alone together for a prolonged period of time.


Philip said:


> I guess the problem is that courtship isn't the solution to this problem. Courtship treats the symptoms while ignoring the disease, which is a lack of respect, a lack of personal integrity, a lack of honor, and a lack of restraint. Virtues such as these are what are needed. We need young men and women who fear the Lord and walk with Him.


Fair enough!
If yours is the common approach to dating, then I will have less misconceptions about brothers and sisters that engage in it. Thank God for the opportunity to discuss this with you, brother.


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## SinnerSavedByChrist (May 25, 2013)

THE W said:


> Philip said:
> 
> 
> > THE W said:
> ...



*Amen!*. For myself: "How much do I pray? How many hours do I spend communing with God?" - if while we are single we spend our time on trinkets, instead of seeking our Loving Father, Shepherd and God, then how disastrous is it going to be when we are busy, working full-time, married with children?


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## Cymro (May 28, 2013)

Came across some advice by good old Bishop Hall in choosing a wife, who wrote, 'To follow nothing
but the eye in the choice of a wife, is to make sense not a counsellor, but a tyrant.' He also quotes a proverb
'choose a wife rather by the ear than the eye.' I know this is from a man's perspective (apologies to our sisters),
but such is the solemnity of the undertaking that it must be entered into with the fear of God uppermost.


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## Vladimir (May 28, 2013)

Cymro said:


> He also quotes a proverb
> 'choose a wife rather by the ear than the eye.'


Dear Mr.O'Neil, I would advise against this; I have found "sirens" much more dangerous than beauty.
Speaking from a man's perspective, biblical virtue as a characteristic of a woman is very real; such a woman has a certain 'aroma' to her. It is not the same as beauty, but a lot more, and a lot more special. It is not even personality. I can attribute this to nothing else but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a woman's walk with the Lord.


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## Cymro (May 29, 2013)

Ah Vladimir, I read nothing of beauty with the virtuous woman, but, " she openeth her mouth
with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness." T'is true that there is a drawing power
that is the result of an internal spiritual beauty," not the outward adorning, but the hidden man of the
heart, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." A 'siren'
blaring is a warning of danger, and that in a woman would be a strong indicator to delay choice and run for 
cover. "It is better to dwell in the corner of a housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house."
We are talking of engaging with someone for a deeper relationship ,and obviously an inherent spirituality
is the foremost criteria, but it will express it with the lips. The eyes can be a mirror of the soul, and no amount 
of makeup can disguise the expression of the eyes. But for myself I would trust the my ears to direct me. 
Personally, I have found the answer a long time ago to this question, "Who can find a virtuous woman?"

can find a virtuous woman."


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## Lindsay (May 29, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> Hi Lindsey:
> 
> Yes. I believe you ought to go into any "date" or "courting situation" with at least a mental list of "deal-breakers" and "ideals." There is nothing wrong with a checklist.
> 
> ...



I am glad to know you think a checklist is ok and agree with everything else you've mentioned. Not only did I attach some to him but to a whole community. I loved his church, his friends, his pastor's sermons, his town, friends I'd had in his town before I met him. That made it harder to discern if marrying him would be good, or seemed like it partly because I loved his circumstances. (Don't get me wrong, I mean nothing against the man. He was a good man with much in his favor. I'd hope I'd ask the same question with *any* suitor.)

Pergamum, Philip, and Wade, thanks for the helpful responses!


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## Lindsay (May 29, 2013)

Miss Marple said:


> Lindsay,
> 
> in regards to your question, can a pastor or elder at your church do some screening for you?
> 
> ...



Miss Marple, thank you! I'm not sure if somebody would do that, but it's a question worth pursuing.


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## irresistible_grace (May 29, 2013)

Need 4 Creed said:


> I know I shouldn't react to everything I see on Facebook, but this one really wound me up!
> 
> View attachment 3463



I would have been wound up too! I didn't jump in sooner because this thread went in an entirely different direction than I expected. 

After reading over this thread, I can't help but think about the time I was assigned "First date" in a Social Psychology class. When the skit began the first question I asked was, "Do you want children?" Everyone in the class gasped & there was an uproar. "This is only the FIRST date," the professor exclaimed. To which I replied, _"Some people date to date; others date to find a mate."_ 
I married my husband 2 months & 2 days after our first date. Nine years and 3 children later, I don't regret that decision. 

They can have their "Speed Dating" but there is nothing innately "Christian" about it. So, just call it "Speed dating" and don't do it at a church.


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