# Theology of Pipe-Smoking?



## TheThirdandReformedAdam (Jan 11, 2017)

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere on the board, but I was wondering what exactly the argument in favor of pipe-smoking is? I notice that many of my reformed brethren find no fault in taking up the practice in moderation, claiming it to be no different from eating chocolate in moderation (which, by the way, may be the greatest stumbling block to my sanctification). However, I've always struggled with that logic, as I have a hard time finding any reliable data that states that smoking is anything other than terrible for one's health (in moderation or not). I am simply curious as to how my brethren practice this with a clear conscience. (Just to be clear, I am not attacking my brethren who smoke. Rather, I know that they must do this with good reason, and I am simply curious as to how they believe their smoking brings glory to God.)


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## Gforce9 (Jan 11, 2017)

I enjoy drag racing.....far more dangerous than a good Romeo y Juliet now and again. The point is, there are many otherwise good things that God has given that can kill you; being bitten by a rattler while out enjoying His creation, Falling off a cliff while hiking, car accident on the way to yummy dinner with friends... I live in Chicago. Every time I go down I-55 into the city, my lungs are filled with unknown chemicals from the factories. I suppose one could argue I'm putting myself in harm's way going to work. I'm told often that the chemicals in my processed food will kill me one day because they are so bad.....should I not eat?

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## TheThirdandReformedAdam (Jan 11, 2017)

How would you respond to someone who said that those risks are relatively minor risks, but smoking is taking a rather large and ill-advised gamble? (I feel like that would be a natural response)


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 11, 2017)

From what I have heard, which may or may not be accurate, pipe-smoking is nowhere near as big a potential health risk as smoking cigarettes. As someone with asthma, however, it would be very unwise for me ever to take up the practice.


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## Gforce9 (Jan 11, 2017)

Since I smoke, maybe, 4 good cigars a year, those other things are far and away more risky. I would probably ask if they've drive to work in a big city while everyone is texting....way more dangerous.....


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## TheThirdandReformedAdam (Jan 11, 2017)

Gforce9 said:


> Since I smoke, maybe, 4 good cigars a year, those other things are far and away more risky. I would probably ask if they've drive to work in a big city while everyone is texting....way more dangerous.....


Good point. Maybe I should trade in my car for a smoke-pipe.


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## Jack K (Jan 11, 2017)

I remember my dad giving up his pipe, about 45 years ago now, when the evidence became clear that smoking was unhealthy. I think that was a wise and godly choice. But we also have a measure of freedom to enjoy activities that carry some risk; we shouldn't condemn everyone who continues a habit that might be somewhat unhealthy. From what I know about pipe smoking, there is some health risk but it is not so reckless a habit as to be necessarily off limits for any believer.


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 11, 2017)

This was written back in 1997, but remains one of my absolute favorite things written on the subject of smoking:Tobacco and the Soul

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## au5t1n (Jan 11, 2017)

This by JG Vos is a worthwhile read: http://www.westminsterconfession.org/godly-living/the-bible-doctrine-of-the-separated-life.php

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## Ray (Jan 11, 2017)

We have a men's cigar and whiskey night once a month at our church. It's pretty cool. We talk life and theology and enjoy good organic tabacco and some good liquor Hey wasn't Spurgeon a big cigar smoker? And at my old church our whole congregation used to meet at a Irish Pub for beer and pipe tabacco, cigars and cigarettes. We actually got to meet people there and invited them to church and a couple of them actually came.

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## JimmyH (Jan 11, 2017)

Indeed Spurgeon was a cigar smoker, and so I've been told, was John Murray. I know of at least one OPC pastor who is a cigar smoker, in moderation of course, but not my pastor. Since I've been smoking tobacco pipes for decades, as did my father before me, I took some solace in reading that CH Spurgeon was a cigar smoker. In Spurgeon, A New Biography, by Arnold Dallimore. On pages 179-181 the author recounts Spurgeon inviting an American Baptist pastor, Dr.George F. Pentacost to the MTP.

Spurgeon preached a sermon on the necessity of giving up sin in order to have success in prayer. After he concluded Spurgeon invited Dr. Pentacost to speak at the pulpit. Dr Pentacost , probably not knowing that CHS smoked cigars characterized the practice as sinful, and recounted his own personal battle in giving up the personal pleasure, characterizing it as, "an enslaving habit and one that the Christian must look on as sin."

Dallimore continues,"We must assume that if ever in his lifetime Spurgeon was embarrassed it was now! He arose and stated :

Well, dear friends, you know that some men can do to the glory of God what to other men would be a sin. And notwithstanding what Brother Pentacost has said, I intend to smoke a good cigar to the glory of God before I go to bed to-night. If anyone can show me in the Bible the command 'Thou shalt not smoke' I am ready to keep it, but I haven't found it yet. I find ten commandments, and it is as much as I can do to keep them: and I've no desire to make them eleven or twelve"

He goes on in this rebuttal, but my fingers, plagued by arthritis, are tired, and it is late. It does say that the last couple of years of his life CHS apparently gave up smoking, but there is no record of his reasons. The author seems to be very opposed to the practice, a Baptist so goes with the territory I guess. At least it was frowned upon in the Baptist congregations I attended before I switched to the OPC. I was very pleased to see that Presbyterians, in my experience, do not condemn pipes or cigars. Of course everyone hates cigarettes, and rightfully so.

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## Ray (Jan 11, 2017)

Glory Be to God Alone for all his blessed earthly gifts.


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## earl40 (Jan 12, 2017)

SolaScriptura said:


> This was written back in 1997, but remains one of my absolute favorite things written on the subject of smoking:Tobacco and the Soul



So that is what blunting is. Learn something every day.


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## jwithnell (Jan 12, 2017)

I like the smell of a good pipe tobacco, and some folks appear to enjoy the filling, cleaning, etc.

Back in the day, folks smoked pipes or cigars in much the same way as others handled cigarettes. They were addicted (which is a problem) and faced lung issues and mouth cancers. 

What I hear my reformed friends doing is much different: an occasional enjoyment with their buds. Dare I say it: decently and in order


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## TheThirdandReformedAdam (Jan 12, 2017)

I have heard of Spurgeon's love of cigars (though I have also heard that he suffered from headaches because he was addicted to nicotine; don't know if there is any truth to that). I believe *some* pipe-smokers come across as offensive to non-smoking Christians because of an ideology they hold which says, "It's not strictly forbidden, so I'm going to enjoy it," rather than, "I do this to bring glory to God." Again, that obviously doesn't have to be the pipe-smokers ideology, but I believe it can easily come across that way.


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## ZackF (Jan 12, 2017)

TheThirdandReformedAdam said:


> I have heard of Spurgeon's love of cigars (though I have also heard that he suffered from headaches because he was addicted to nicotine; don't know if there is any truth to that). I believe *some* pipe-smokers come across as offensive to non-smoking Christians because of an ideology they hold which says, "It's not strictly forbidden, so I'm going to enjoy it," rather than, "I do this to bring glory to God." Again, that obviously doesn't have to be the pipe-smokers ideology, but I believe it can easily come across that way.



The problem is non-smokers ask the question expecting to be returned a correct answer in their mind. Regardless of how the answer is given, it is seldom satisfactory. When one is seeking to rebuke instead of understand (as a pretense) he will always find the other "offensive." The psychologists call it passive aggression. I say this as a man who quit smoking entirely over eight years ago.

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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 12, 2017)

"The following poem, the second part of which, was wrote by Mr. [Ralph] Erskine, is here inserted, to fill up this page, as a proper subject of meditation to Smokers of Tobacco.

*Smoking Spiritualized. In Two Parts. The first part being an old meditation upon smoking tobacco; the second, a new addition to it, or improvement of it.*

This Indian weed now wither´d quite,
Though green at noon, cut down at night,
Shows thy decay;
All flesh is hay.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The pipe so lily-like and weak,
Does thus thymortal state bespeak.
Thou are ev´n such,
Gone with a touch.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

All when the smoke ascends on high,
Then thou behold´st the vanity
Of worldly stuff,
Gone with a puff.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And when the pipe grows foul within,
Think on thy soul defil´d with sin;
For then the fire,
It does require.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And seest the ashes cast away;
Then to thyself thou mayest say,
That to the dust
Return thou must.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Part II

Was this small plant for thee cut down?
So was the Plant of great renown;
Which mercy sends
For nobler ends.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Doth juice medicinal proceed
From such a naughty foreign weed?
Then what´s the pow´r
Of Jesse´s flow´r?
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The promise, like the pipe inlays,
And by the mouth of faith conveys
What virtue flows
From Sharon´s rose.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

In vain the´unlighted pipe you blow;
Your pains in outward means are so,
Till heav´nly fire
The heart inspire.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The smoke, like burning incense, tow´rs;
So should a praying heart of yours,
With ardent cries,
Surmont the skies.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco."
From _The Sermons, and Other Practical Works of Ralph Erskine_ (Glasgow: Robert Urie for John Newlands, 1764), 2.662.

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## Parakaleo (Jan 12, 2017)

I've heard smoking a tobacco pipe has health _benefits_. It's a deeply relaxing and de-stressing activity. One study I came across (I don't remember where) actually showed a bump in life expectancy for men who smoke tobacco pipes in moderation.


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## jw (Jan 12, 2017)

In recent years, it seems -and I am not exempting m'self from having been temporarily caught up in it during my first years of exposure to _Reformedom_- that a sort of Bohemian attitude has surrounded libations, tobacco, etc. amongst reforming and Calvinistic folk. Sometimes, it appears to be a badge of identity, or even a rite of passage. The question these days is not _Do you like beer? _but rather -with assumption that everyone Reformed smokes, drinks, etc.- _Which is your favorite beer/ tobacco/ scotch/ pistol/ beard style_?

Please do not misunderstand me. I enjoy a good brew, scotch, and, formerly, a bowl of pipe tobacco, on occasion. So I am not saying such things are inherently wrong (see the J.G. Vos piece referenced above). I would, however, caution folks to be careful in their indulgence of such things. And let us not stop there: This caution must apply to food, leisure, and recreations as well. It is easy to be carried away by the over-indulgence of any of these things and -when pricked in conscience, or by the faithful wounds of a friend- cry "Christian Liberty!" rather than to do the hard work of self-examination.

When the Apostle says we are to -whether we eat, drink, or whatever we do- do all things to the glory of God, He has in mind that we make use of our work, our play, our entertainments, and our rest all in such a way so as to subdue them each to the reign of Christ. For some, this may mean cutting things out altogether. For others, cutting back. Our best efforts are to be spent toward doing all the words of the Law, and all of the aforementioned (recreation, labor, rest, etc.) might be helpful means toward supporting that end. More often than not, however, they are hindrances to our growth, and sometimes little steps to apostasy. If we find that the application or misapplication of any of those actually hinders our sanctification endeavors, we must reassess their importance and or necessity.

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## Dachaser (Jan 12, 2017)

Ray said:


> We have a men's cigar and whiskey night once a month at our church. It's pretty cool. We talk life and theology and enjoy good organic tabacco and some good liquor Hey wasn't Spurgeon a big cigar smoker? And at my old church our whole congregation used to meet at a Irish Pub for beer and pipe tabacco, cigars and cigarettes. We actually got to meet people there and invited them to church and a couple of them actually came.


 
I have never heardof that before in a curch, sounds interesting.
I have heard of them having a wine and cheese tasting time.So you meet right in the church building then?


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## ZackF (Jan 12, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> I've heard smoking a tobacco pipe has health _benefits_. It's a deeply relaxing and de-stressing activity. One study I came across (I don't remember where) actually showed a bump in life expectancy for men who smoke tobacco pipes in moderation.


I've read it has hormetic benefits.


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## TylerRay (Jan 12, 2017)

Joshua said:


> In recent years, it seems -and I am not exempting m'self from having been temporarily caught up in it during my first years of exposure to _Reformedom_- that a sort of Bohemian attitude has surrounded libations, tobacco, etc. amongst reforming and Calvinistic folk. Sometimes, it appears to be a badge of identity, or even a rite of passage. The question these days is not _Do you like beer? _but rather -with assumption that everyone Reformed smokes, drinks, etc.- _Which is your favorite beer/ tobacco/ scotch/ pistol_?
> 
> Please do not misunderstand me. I enjoy a good brew, scotch, and, formerly, a bowl of pipe tobacco, on occasion. So I am not saying such things are inherently wrong (see the J.G. Vos piece referenced above). I would, however, caution folks to be careful in their indulgence of such things. And let us not stop there: This caution must apply to food, leisure, and recreations as well. It is easy to be carried away by the over-indulgence of any of these things and -when pricked in conscience, or by the faithful wounds of a friend- cry "Christian Liberty!" rather than to do the hard work of self-examination.
> 
> When the Apostle says we are to -whether we eat, drink, or whatever we do- do all things to the glory of God, He has in mind that we make use of our work, our play, our entertainments, and our rest all in such a way so as to subdue them each to the reign of Christ. For some, this may mean cutting things out altogether. For others, cutting back. Our best efforts are to be spent toward doing all the words of the Law, and all of the aforementioned (recreation, labor, rest, etc.) can be helpful means toward that end. More often than not, however, they can become hindrances to our growth. If we find that the application or misapplication of any of those actually hinders our sanctification endeavors, we must reassess their importance and or necessity.



I'll second Joshua's comment. I've been smoking in moderation for about seven or eight years (ever since I came to a Reformed persuasion, really). Over the last year, my tobacco use has increased significantly. I don't think I've crossed over into the realm of immoderatation, and I don't think I'm addicted, but my use has become much more regular than it ever has been. As such, I am currently reevaluating my practice. Excess and addiction are real dangers that I am now much more aware of, and I have to check myself.

Tobacco users and prospective tobacco users should take these things seriously. The price of sinning against a holy God is too great.


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## TylerRay (Jan 12, 2017)

NaphtaliPress said:


> In vain the´unlighted pipe you blow;
> Your pains in outward means are so,
> Till heav´nly fire
> The heart inspire.
> Thus think, and smoke tobacco.



I love this. The entire poem is wonderful, but this stanza in particular is rich. I can't speak for everyone, but for a pipe smoker like myself, it is a vivid and apt illustration.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I have never heardof that before in a curch, sounds interesting.
> I have heard of them having a wine and cheese tasting time.So you meet right in the church building then?


No we don't own a church building, we meet at a members house. But at my old church it was a bar or Irish Pub.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 12, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I have never heardof that before in a curch, sounds interesting.
> I have heard of them having a wine and cheese tasting time.So you meet right in the church building then?



There could be legal issues in some areas regarding drinking in a church building (besides wine, of course)


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

I've had friends that were hesitant to come to church, so in the past I've invited them to one of these events and they enjoyed it and got to know Christians at someplace where they felt more comfortable, and then after a beer or two with a smoke they felt more comfortable coming to visit the church since they got to know the people first. So I've seen it work out pretty well a few times.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

Sometimes people think Christians dont drink or smoke like we're Mormons or something. LOL


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 12, 2017)

TheThirdandReformedAdam said:


> I have heard of Spurgeon's love of cigars



See also: http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.php

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## au5t1n (Jan 12, 2017)

Joshua said:


> In recent years, it seems -and I am not exempting m'self from having been temporarily caught up in it during my first years of exposure to _Reformedom_- that a sort of Bohemian attitude has surrounded libations, tobacco, etc. amongst reforming and Calvinistic folk. Sometimes, it appears to be a badge of identity, or even a rite of passage. The question these days is not _Do you like beer? _but rather -with assumption that everyone Reformed smokes, drinks, etc.- _Which is your favorite beer/ tobacco/ scotch/ pistol_?



I concur; there is an unhealthy focus on these things in Reformed-ish circles today. I recently saw a meme where someone had turned the famous images of the purported progression of evolution from ape to man, only it was a theological evolution to Presbyterian. The Presbyterian was a man in a suit with a pipe and a beer stein. Why do a pipe and beer stein identify someone as Presbyterian? I think all of this is an immature overreaction to the Arminian Baptist backgrounds many in the YRR movement have.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 12, 2017)

au5t1n said:


> I concur; there is an unhealthy focus on these things in Reformed-ish circles today. I recently saw a meme where someone had turned the famous images of the purported progression of evolution from ape to man, only it was a theological evolution to Presbyterian. The Presbyterian was a man in a suit with a pipe and a beer stein. Why do a pipe and beer stein identify someone as Presbyterian? I think all of this is an immature overreaction to the Arminian Baptist backgrounds many in the YRR movement have.



That is exactly my impression as well; it is a form of immature triumphalism. It is almost as if these YRR-types are rubbing it in the faces of the older generation, but they forget that Christian liberty is to be used to edify your brother and build him up in love.


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## Daniel M. (Jan 12, 2017)

I myself used to smoke a pipe for a few months early in my faith, but did it in secret because of the immaturity of my Arminian background.

Arminians put too much value on _appearance_, and thus add preference to Scripture.

Reformed folk, on the other hand (this being only a conjecture), can get _too_ comfortable sometimes, if you ask me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> That is exactly my impression as well; it is a form of immature triumphalism. It is almost as if these YRR-types are rubbing it in the faces of the older generation, but they forget that Christian liberty is to be used to edify your brother and build him up in love.


What is YRR?


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## Gforce9 (Jan 12, 2017)

While there may be some connection between YRR and such practices, I have liked good beer long before they were around. I drink beer and have a rare cigar not to be cool or as an over-reaction to anything, but because I like them from time to time. There is less stigma in Presbyterian circles than in more Fundamentalist groups, but many of those guys like beer, too......they just can't openly admit such....


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## mountaincathedrals (Jan 12, 2017)

I must agree with the last two posts.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

Gforce9 said:


> While there may be some connection between YRR and such practices, I have liked good beer long before they were around. I drink beer and have a rare cigar not to be cool or as an over-reaction to anything, but because I like them from time to time. There is less stigma in Presbyterian circles than in more Fundamentalist groups, but many of those guys like beer, too......they just can't openly admit such....


I always enjoyed beer and a good smoke way before I was even Reformed. In my Hispanic background and culture it's normal to have a beer with your dad, uncles, and cousins at a early age like 15-16 years old.

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## mountaincathedrals (Jan 12, 2017)

Young, restless and reformed.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2017)

mountaincathedrals said:


> Young, restless and reformed.


Is that a para church thing? Or a movement?


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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 12, 2017)

Joshua said:


> In recent years, it seems -and I am not exempting m'self from having been temporarily caught up in it during my first years of exposure to _Reformedom_- that a sort of Bohemian attitude has surrounded libations, tobacco, etc. amongst reforming and Calvinistic folk. Sometimes, it appears to be a badge of identity, or even a rite of passage. The question these days is not _Do you like beer? _but rather -with assumption that everyone Reformed smokes, drinks, etc.- _Which is your favorite beer/ tobacco/ scotch/ pistol_?
> 
> Please do not misunderstand me. I enjoy a good brew, scotch, and, formerly, a bowl of pipe tobacco, on occasion. So I am not saying such things are inherently wrong (see the J.G. Vos piece referenced above). I would, however, caution folks to be careful in their indulgence of such things. And let us not stop there: This caution must apply to food, leisure, and recreations as well. It is easy to be carried away by the over-indulgence of any of these things and -when pricked in conscience, or by the faithful wounds of a friend- cry "Christian Liberty!" rather than to do the hard work of self-examination.
> 
> When the Apostle says we are to -whether we eat, drink, or whatever we do- do all things to the glory of God, He has in mind that we make use of our work, our play, our entertainments, and our rest all in such a way so as to subdue them each to the reign of Christ. For some, this may mean cutting things out altogether. For others, cutting back. Our best efforts are to be spent toward doing all the words of the Law, and all of the aforementioned (recreation, labor, rest, etc.) can be helpful means toward that end. More often than not, however, they can become hindrances to our growth. If we find that the application or misapplication of any of those actually hinders our sanctification endeavors, we must reassess their importance and or necessity.


This is very wise advice. One thing that has troubled me in recent times is the tendency to talk about christian liberty without *equally* talking about Christian sanctification or the problem of causing the weaker brother to stumble.

And I speak as one who enjoys the odd wine or beer.

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## TylerRay (Jan 13, 2017)

Ray said:


> Is that a para church thing? Or a movement?



You might call it a movement. It's synonymous with "New Calvinism."


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## Ray (Jan 13, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> You might call it a movement. It's synonymous with "New Calvinism."


Just looked up New Calvinism, it seems like it's a New Generation Baptist trend.


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## TylerRay (Jan 13, 2017)

Ray said:


> Just looked up New Calvinism, it seems like it's a New Generation Baptist trend.



That's kind of true, but it is definitely in Presbyterian circles as well.

If you want more information on it from a classically Reformed perspective, check out A Scottish Presbyterian Perspective on New Calvinism.


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## Ray (Jan 13, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> That's kind of true, but it is definitely in Presbyterian circles as well.
> 
> If you want more information on it from a classically Reformed perspective, check out A Scottish Presbyterian Perspective on New Calvinism.


This is good. I guess I'm blessed for not falling into these movements. It's sad because I know of a elder who promotes this stuff. When I first came into studying Reformed theology a little more strictly back in the day. This elder would have weekly study's but they were pretty much based on just watching these type of conferences. i got tired of always watching the tv screen and had to stop going. We never opened a book.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 14, 2017)

YRR/New Calvinism is more or less the 5 Points interspersed with a lot of "brother!"

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## Moses Costigan (Jan 15, 2017)

Ray said:


> What is YRR?


Young, Restless and Reformed

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## Theogenes (Jan 19, 2017)

I view my pipe smoking as a hobby, not a habit. I can take it or leave it. I can enjoy it to God's glory but it does not control me. In fact, I haven't smoked a pipe now for about 3 months but I just may do so this weekend!

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## ZackF (Jan 19, 2017)

Theogenes said:


> I view my pipe smoking as a hobby, not a habit. I can take it or leave it. I can enjoy it to God's glory but it does not control me. In fact, I haven't smoked a pipe now for about 3 months but I just may do so this weekend!


Good philosophy! Long time no see.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 23, 2017)

Ray said:


> Is that a para church thing? Or a movement?



The term "Young, Restless and Reformed" comes from an article (2006) and later a book (2008) of that title by Collin Hansen that highlighted the resurgence of Calvinism among evangelicals in the 21st Century. I'm not sure that he delved much into this issue if he brought it up at all. But switching from Baptist or Pentecostal to Reformed is often accompanied by taking up drinking and/or smoking. 

With regard to the arguments over drinking and smoking, this is not just a recent "Baptist phenomenon." I can say from firsthand experience that Presbyterians reveling in being cool by drinking scotch and smoking cigars and generally congratulating themselves that they are not like those weaker Baptist teetotalers long predates the YRR phenomenon. (I think that the J.G. Vos essay referenced earlier may have been largely aimed at the abstentionists and/or prohibitionists within his own Reformed Presbyterian communion.)

Swinging from the extremes of legalism to license (i.e. taking liberty to an extreme) and sinfully judging others for partaking or not partaking is a perpetual temptation.


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