# Help responding to this: Faith from God not from ourselves



## Rufus (Nov 13, 2011)

As some of you might know I'm in a debate (peacefully) with somebody regarding Calvinism being false the premise being that people hear about Jesus and if they don't accept them than God hardens them but there's really no choice from God involved (synergism). As well as doing a lot of research (which has benefited me and helped me learn things that I never understood) I would like some help with resources for stuff like this/or responses. 



> You said: Where did I ever say we do not need to have faith. People are justified by faith, man can't be saved without it. What I did say is that the faith that we have isn't from us making ourselves believe or mustering up "enough faith". Faith is a gift from God.
> My reply: You contradict yourself. You also think that it is unnoticeable. What a joke. You said right here that you never said we do not need to have faith. Do you not know your religion has made you a liar? If the faith we have is not from us---THEN WE DID NOT HAVE TO HAVE FAITH TO BE SAVED. According to your religion, WE DO NOT HAVE FAITH WHEN WE ARE SAVED.



Now looking back on some old threads I came across two views: That regeneration/conversion/faith all happen at the save moment but logically regeneration comes first. The other is that regeneration or that: Regeneration comes first than conversion and faith later (? Is this correct or did I misread?) 

-Sean

P.S. Bible verses really help


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## rbcbob (Nov 13, 2011)

Sean, before you can make much headway in any debate you and your opponent will need to agree on basic definitions for the essential terms being debated. e.g. saved, regeneration, faith, repentance, sanctification, etc. If you don't nail this down early you will waste countless hours arguing only to find out much later that you weren't talking about precisely the same concept.

Sample verses:

Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. *The Lord opened her heart to heed* the things spoken by Paul. 

Ephesians 2:8 For by *grace* you have been *saved* through *faith*, and that not of yourselves; *it* is the gift of God 

Psalm 110:3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth 

Luke 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


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## Rufus (Nov 13, 2011)

rbcbob said:


> Sean, before you can make much headway in any debate you and your opponent will need to agree on basic definitions for the essential terms being debated. e.g. saved, regeneration, faith, repentance, sanctification, etc. If you don't nail this down early you will waste countless hours arguing only to find out much later that you weren't talking about precisely the same concept.
> 
> Sample verses:
> 
> ...



Thank you I will bring up defining essential terms later. And thanks for the verses. They continuously said that John 6:44 was just for the Jews.


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## MarieP (Nov 14, 2011)

Rufus said:


> They continuously said that John 6:44 was just for the Jews.



Wow...so God *does* make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in regards to salvation in Christ? That's one dangerous argument!


Do they say verses 37 and 39 are for ethnic Jews only as well?


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## rbcbob (Nov 14, 2011)

Rufus said:


> They continuously said that John 6:44 was just for the Jews.



Ask them then how much else of Jesus' words, on this occasion, were just for the Jews.

35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. *He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst*.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 *"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out*.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, *that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."*

And who would they exclude from these words:

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself


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## Rufus (Nov 15, 2011)

rbcbob said:


> Rufus said:
> 
> 
> > They continuously said that John 6:44 was just for the Jews.
> ...



They said that its for the Jews because Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel who had God as their Father, while the Gentiles didn't worship the Father.

Also: The idea that we don't receive the Holy Spirit until we obey:


> If God does not let anyone come to Him without His first giving the Holy Spirit, then that does help prove predestination. However, God does NOT give His Spirit to anyone UNTIL we obey, see Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” “ ...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” Read also the beautiful powerful words of Jesus Christ in John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
> We do not even get the Holy Spirit until we believe, love and obey God and Jesus.


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## Rufus (Nov 15, 2011)

Bump!


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 17, 2011)

Acts 13:48

Seems to me that God does it all, no?

The _ordo salutis_ is generally considered to be along the following: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, *regeneration*, union to Christ, *faith*, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. I don't know how those at enmity with God can somehow muster up faith, given their state of spiritual death, for the unregenerate...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Look at this way. To me, the matter of the understanding the doctrines of grace begins with our human inability, for example, see John 6:44, 65; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 Cor 4:7. If unsaved man is unable to turn of himself to God, because of this _spiritual inability_, then divine _election_ must be _unconditionally_ dependent upon solely the _sovereign good pleasure of God_ since man is unable to respond of himself favorable to God. Now if election is unconditional then _redemption_, since not all are re-born, must necessarily be _particular_ for those who are elected unconditionally. And if redemption is particular, that is, for the elect, and if the elect are unable to come to God of themselves, then the _grace_ that brings them to Christ must be _effectual_. Finally, if the grace that brings the elect to Christ is effectual, and if they are elected to eternal life, then they must _persevere_ by God's grace in that life. 

AMR


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 17, 2011)

There's something of an irony in the statement:


Rufus said:


> If the faith we have is not from us---THEN WE DID NOT HAVE TO HAVE FAITH TO BE SAVED. *According to your religion, WE DO NOT HAVE FAITH WHEN WE ARE SAVED*.


Clearly, some definitions are in order; in particular, ALL the different ways in which "salvation" can be described. It may be defined "broadly" (in more than one way); it may be defined "narrowly" (again, in more than one way). It may be defined "objectively" (as in, what God does or has done to save); it may be defined subjectively (as in, how one person personally experiences salvation).

I point that out, in order to highlight the *bolded* portion of the quote. OF COURSE, _objectively _speaking, we do not have faith when we are saved, if we speak of our salvation as happening on a cross, 2000 years ago. We weren't even alive when Christ died for us. More than that, we're told that he was totally abandoned on earth, which is to say that basically no one actively believed in him when he died--they all assumed he was a failure at whatever it was they thought he ought to be or accomplish. So, by one definition NO ONE on earth had faith _in Jesus_ *when they were saved*--which thing is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Clearly, the comments quoted use a specific definition of salvation that privileges his argument, even while the writer would doubtless use a broader or more nuanced or particularized definition for his own expressions. Here he apparently intends to describe the temporal, subjective salvation of someone. He _seems_ to mean "the hour I first believed," or something like it. But while that hour is important, it ignores election (no matter how one defines it) which takes place "before the foundation of the world," Eph.1:4. I don't think he'd deny the plain meaning of Scripture, or that those who are "in Christ" are saved by definition. No one denies that election is somehow related to faith or believing in Christ (though how-related is a big issue). But even if God merely reacts to his creatures hypothetical (hasn't happened yet) self-determination, Paul locates the origination of our salvation *prior to* any human existence, which is to say *before* anyone's faith.

Consider other expressions. Can faith in Christ be separated from love for Christ? Or to put it differently, how can we be said to believe or _trust IN_ someone (to commit one's life to another, which is not the same thing as holding to a person's _veracity_ or truthfulness, and not be devoted to him at the same time? We can't be speaking here of some temporary, situational agreement or "truce." That isn't trust IN another, but trust in a complex situation that may bind even an enemy to assist you.

But what does the Scripture say about God's love?"We love him because _*he first loved us*_," 1Jn.4:19.

"But *God shows his love for us* in that _while we were *still* sinners_, Christ died for us..... For if _while we were enemies_ we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, _now that we are reconciled_, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, _we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ_, through whom we have now received reconciliation" Rom.5:8,10-11.​

Both of those texts teach that the God's love for us is prior to our love for (or rejoicing in) him. His love prompts him to act for our reconciliation; and *we were reconciled* (past tense). The death of his Son makes away with the enmity between the warring parties. And now (present) that we are reconciled, we shall be (future) saved--incidentally, an idea that calls for a further definition of the term "salvation" than simply backward-looking.

It should not be thought that any of this tries to pit one Bible passage against another. We simply have to take it all into account, and to attempt to understand where and how *our faith* fits into the salvation-scheme that God has designed. If one thinks that the death of Christ contains a hypothetical component--that is, his death makes salvation possible, rather than being an act that functionally saves (reconciles)--his conclusions on the place of faith, or even whence faith?, will reflect that fact. He understands his self-generated faith makes the God-generated possibility of salvation an actual event that happens to him.

But if you believe that salvation is something that fundamentally happens outside of you, and is applied into you by the power of Christ at work; and all before it is subjectively apprehended by you and appreciated by you, by a faculty of faith-in-Christ that is _itself_ a component of the salvation that is wrought for you and then placed in you--then your understanding of where faith comes from and what function it performs in your salvation will reflect that fact. Faith is a function or faculty of the new life brought about by the regenerative work of Holy Spirit. If we open our eyes as newborn babies, and we see (oddly, perhaps) by nature, we recognize sight is a function of life. We put it into operation even before we begin to understand what it is we are doing or how we are doing it. Likewise, with "spiritual sight" or the eye of faith. Truly, we must be born again; and being born again, we will exercise our faith in the Christ we have only just been empowered to see. Without faith, one will not even "see" one bit of "the kingdom of God," Jn.3:3. He will not "see life," Jn.3:36, because he isn't believing because he hasn't been born again. He has no spiritual life, whereby to see.

It should be obvious that for John, "seeing" spiritually which is believing/having faith isn't that which _causes_ the new birth, but is an immediate and natural effect of it. Still, faith is MORE than simply the faculty or function of new life, it is *instrumental* for the new life. Faith is the reflex of the new birth that actually "takes hold" of Christ. No one can be saved who does not take hold of Christ by this faith. But, no one who is so enabled to believe does anything other than take hold of Christ, believing in him, loving him.

We don't want to reduce "salvation" to a moment-of-faith, or first-faith. There is so much more to it than that. It has beginnings long before we are engaged, and it has completion in a resurrection that is still future and accompanied by eternal repercussions. We are elect by the Father before time, justified by faith in time through the Spirit, and glorified by Christ (to whom we are united) by his love that refuses to be parted from us.


In the end, the comments that we are reacting to fail to take the whole of salvation into consideration, when they criticize the Reformed view which is comprehensive.

________________________

addendum on the origins of saving faith: 2 texts that plainly speak of the gracious gift of saving faith (besides John 3)
1) Eph.2:8-9
2) Php.1:29


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