# Reformed Baptists and Seminary (or lack thereof).



## LongWar (May 24, 2019)

Hello all,

One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information. 

Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.


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## Herald (May 24, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Hello all,
> 
> One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information.
> 
> Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.


David, do you mean ATS accredited?


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## LongWar (May 24, 2019)

Since the S is for School, yes I did. ATS School just sounds awkward.


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## Username3000 (May 24, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Hello all,
> 
> One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information.
> 
> Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.


With all due respect, a formal “education requirement for ordination” is not one of the New Testament qualifications of an elder. Obviously there are benefits to a seminary education—I’m not arguing that—but I think your language is a bit strong, brother. 

I’m sure many an overseas missionary could tell of uneducated converts whose godliness and pastoral abilities would put many of us to shame!

With that said brother, I’m sorry I can’t help with your search.

Reactions: Like 2


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## LongWar (May 24, 2019)

Of course. That said, Paul went off to the wilderness to meditate/training/learn/etc. for three years before ministry. The disciples got three years with Jesus.... I think it is arrogant to take the "I got this" mentality unless necessary, such as on the mission field as you alluded to. Congregationalists are the only Christians I know of who allow this. Sorry if my blunt language offended, but I think everyone's seen an unprepared/failed ministry that could have been prevented.

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## Username3000 (May 25, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Of course. That said, Paul went off to the wilderness to meditate/training/learn/etc. for three years before ministry. The disciples got three years with Jesus.... I think it is arrogant to take the "I got this" mentality unless necessary, such as on the mission field as you alluded to. Congregationalists are the only Christians I know of who allow this. Sorry if my blunt language offended, but I think everyone's seen an unprepared/failed ministry that could have been prevented.


No offence at all, brother.

I was just trying to keep us balanced. There’s obviously a middle road between unprepared elders and making seminary education a biblical command.

I was probably being defensive because I had been reading a bit about persecution against Baptists by other professing believers, and thought you were giving them an unwarranted hard time. 

Please forgive me.


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## TheInquirer (May 25, 2019)

Although not required for eldership biblically, I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education. But if that is all you have to choose from, I guess you take what you can get.

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## Username3000 (May 25, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> Although not required for eldership biblically, I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education. But if that is all you have to choose from, I guess you take what you can get.


It’s a luxury to have seminary trained elders in the large numbers that we do here. 

Let’s remember that there are a lot of Christians around the world that would praise God for merely having a faithful pastor at all, and a church to worship with. 

We are greatly blessed. But let us remember, to whom much is given, much is required.

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## Pergamum (May 26, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> Although not required for eldership biblically, I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education. But if that is all you have to choose from, I guess you take what you can get.


That sentiment sounds prideful to me.

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## TheInquirer (May 26, 2019)

> That sentiment sounds prideful to me.



For your health issues, is it prideful to want to see the best doctor you can instead of the physician's assistant? Do you not want to entrust the teaching and shepherding of your soul to a man who has at least a certain baseline of knowledge and skill in handling the word of God?

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 2


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## Pergamum (May 26, 2019)

The spread of Modernist theological error in the last century primarily occurred by those in seminary settings. JEDP anyone? That didn't come from country bumpkin preachers...

Here is a webpage with 3 different lists of chuches which are probably solid based upon their professed doctrine: http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/church-finder

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## Pergamum (May 26, 2019)

Another factor at play:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/how-same-sex-marriage-threatens-christian-schools/

I predict there will be a move (which will probably be successful) to strip accreditation from all faithful seminaries who oppose homosexuality, and to yank any federal aid or tax-exempt status. 

In the future accreditation will be a sign of compromise.

"Last fall, the New England Association of Schools and Colleges (NEASC) discussed whether Gordon College’s traditional inclusion of “homosexual practice” as a forbidden activity in its Statement on Life and Conduct was contrary to the Commission’s standards for accreditation. The college responded by addressing some of the concerns about the treatment of LGBT students but refused to appease critics by abandoning Christian ethics. Earlier this week the NEASC said Gordon is no longer at risk of losing its accreditation.

Until recently, many Christian colleges assumed losing accreditation was the most likely outcome of holding to the historical and biblical teaching on sexuality. But a new concern emerged on Tuesday. With seven words—“It is going to be an issue”—the U.S. government signaled to orthodox Christian colleges and universities that if they don’t drop their opposition to same-sex marriage they will lose their tax exempt status."


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## TheInquirer (May 26, 2019)

Perg,

I get your point about the invasion of liberalism and destructive power of many seminaries.

I am speaking of education in the most positive sense of a man ably equipped to teach and shepherd the sheep. That is why I included the words "equivalent of" a seminary baseline level of education at a minimum is what I would want for me and my family. Not everyone has the same needs and depending where you are in the world, the standards of course can be flexible. I've just seen the negative outcomes of a lack of education in certain areas - it can really hurt the church. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## Stephen L Smith (May 26, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education.





TheInquirer said:


> Do you not want to entrust the teaching and shepherding of your soul to a man who has at least a certain baseline of knowledge and skill in handling the word of God?





TheInquirer said:


> I included the words "equivalent of" a seminary baseline level of education at a minimum is what I would want for me and my family.


Neither Spurgeon nor Martyn Lloyd-Jones had formal seminary training but were tremendously gifted men. They made up for it with voluminous reading. Both had powerful memories so could learn doctrine etc very quickly.

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## greenbaggins (May 26, 2019)

The Spurgeons and Lloyd-Joneses of the Christian church are invaluable, and point out to us the importance of not making any kind of idol out of theological education. However, the biblical ideal and norm is an educated ministry. Consider the following passages:

2 Timothy 1:13 "Hold on to the pattern of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who lives in us." Question: how is Timothy supposed to do that without education? Indeed, Paul himself educated Timothy!

2 Timothy 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth." Is this not a call to be an educated pastor? That education can come in various ways, of course. But ignorance is most definitely not a virtue here. It can be assumed that if a pastor does not have a seminary education, he will have found a way to make up for that. The virtue of seminaries is that they can lay a foundation for further self-education on the part of the pastor in such a way that no major gaps are present.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 "The Lord's servant must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth." This might actually be the strongest of the three passages, since only those who are well-educated about both their own views as to what is biblical, as well as knowing their opponents' views, can be in a position to instruct and correct _with gentleness_. Typically speaking, the less educated a person is about the issues, the shriller they are in propounding their views. Those who are confident, however, are so because they have deeply studied the issues, and know both what they know, and what they don't know.

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## Polanus1561 (May 26, 2019)

I think with Whitefield being endorsed by Richard Barcellos and PRTS having many 1689 students, there definitely are options to consider


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## Ben Zartman (May 26, 2019)

To the OP:
I think the only way to get a decent list is to personally visit each confessing 1689 church in the area you move to and judge for yourself. I travel often, and even a phone call with very pointed questions about manner and habits of worship can sometimes finish with wasting time visiting a church that is Reformed Baptist only in their imagination. If I'm passing through a town for only a Lord's Day, I generally look for an OPC church: with them you always know what you're going to get, and it's always most blessed.
That being said, if you get to Providence, RI, look up Grace Community Baptist Church; if in New Jersey, try Trinity Baptist Church. The elders at both are seminary-educated men.

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## Pergamum (May 27, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> The Spurgeons and Lloyd-Joneses of the Christian church are invaluable, and point out to us the importance of not making any kind of idol out of theological education. However, the biblical ideal and norm is an educated ministry. Consider the following passages:
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:13 "Hold on to the pattern of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who lives in us." Question: how is Timothy supposed to do that without education? Indeed, Paul himself educated Timothy!
> 
> ...


Paul mentored these men. In some seminaries there is little personal mentorship along these lines. It's mainly just the lecture method that one could just as easily benefit from by listening to mp3 uploads from 3 states away. These passages speak of training and mentorship, but not formal seminary education (which often lacks these qualities).

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## greenbaggins (May 27, 2019)

Perg, in most Presbyterian and Reformed denominations, a year-long internship is required before ordination, which would be heavily personal in its training and mentorship. Seminaries rely on that in the Reformed world to give the mostly personal on the job training.

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## Pergamum (May 27, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> Perg, in most Presbyterian and Reformed denominations, a year-long internship is required before ordination, which would be heavily personal in its training and mentorship. Seminaries rely on that in the Reformed world to give the mostly personal on the job training.



That internship is a great idea.

I might have to jump ship and swim over to your boat.

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## ArminianOnceWas (May 27, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> That sentiment sounds prideful to me.



Doesn't sound prideful to me at all. Let's be careful here because pride is an easy item to float to those of whom we don't agree with but sometimes we can seem prideful in doing so.

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## Kinghezy (May 27, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> Perg, in most Presbyterian and Reformed denominations, a year-long internship is required before ordination, which would be heavily personal in its training and mentorship. Seminaries rely on that in the Reformed world to give the mostly personal on the job training.





Pergamum said:


> That internship is a great idea.
> 
> I might have to jump ship and swim over to your boat.



I do not know if it is standard our not, but at my church a couple potential ruling elders (not ministers so I know not the same as this discussion) are going through an internship prior to being brought up to the congregation to vote in (assuming they are still interested in it after the internship). That seems wise to me, just even in letting people know what they are getting themselves into.


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 27, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Sorry if my blunt language offended



I don't think there was anything offensive about your tone or language. Unfortunately, too often I see posts where I believe we fail these posters by engaging our own agendas. 

Some of us have used examples of how education may not be required, but these are an outlier and extreme examples, such as Spurgeon or missionaries/converts in fields where educational opportunities were limited or non-existent. I don't think those are fair comparisons or standards to apply to this situation.

Otherwise, I'd love to see men go to a presbytery and declare this Spurgeon clause when requesting ordination.

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## Pergamum (May 27, 2019)

Just a note: a lack of formal education in ministers is NOT an extreme example, but the worldwide norm. The majority of Christians now come from the "Two-Thirds World" and places such as Africa. A seminary-educated and ordained man behind the pulpit is a minority reality. 

https://theglobalchurchproject.com/post-1/

"We are now living in a “world church” where the vast majority of Christians are [from the Majority World]. David Barrett’s statistical studies have confirmed this shift, and Philip Jenkins has predicted that by 2025 fully two-thirds of Christians will live in Africa, Latin America, and Asia… Scholars are unanimous in acknowledging the accuracy of the facts. The “average Christian” today is female, black, and lives in a Brazilian _favela _or an African village."

"Today, the Pew Forum study finds, more than 1.3 billion Christians live in the Global South [61% of all Christians live in Asia, Africa, and Latin America], compared with about 860 million in the Global North (39%).” That is an astounding shift in only one hundred years."

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## ArminianOnceWas (May 27, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Just a note: a lack of formal education in ministers is NOT an extreme example"



I don't believe that making the comparison to third world countries is exactly apples to apples with the context of the original poster. 

Interestingly you note the southern hemisphere. I actually serve on faculty at an institution in Africa and also make a trip to South America each quarter to teach intensives for a week. In my assessment, one of the detriments of Christianity in these cultures is the lack of educationally trained clergy.

I found in Africa there is often a mixture of Christianity with native religion which leads to non-Christian practices and spiritual abuse. In South America, I see so much Catholic influence even in the Protestant churches. When I am there I am training pastors in basic biblical literacy.

So while the standard may be a global uneducated clergy, I'm not convinced that validates using this as a standard and norm to disqualify seminary in the U.S. but in fact, I think these experiences speak even louder for formal education of global clergy.

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## Timotheos (May 28, 2019)

John Yap said:


> I think with Whitefield being endorsed by Richard Barcellos and PRTS having many 1689 students, there definitely are options to consider


Whitefield is not accredited, fyi.


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## Timotheos (May 28, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Hello all,
> 
> One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information.
> 
> Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.


There are some RB church lists such as the founders friendly list and (thought it doesn't get updated as much) the farese list (https://farese.com/). 

Of the confessional Baptist seminaries, there are only 4 that I know of. I do not believe any of them are ATS accredited. 

I know many RB churches that have pastors that are seminary trained. But even then, some of their training is not from an accredited school. Hopefully, these churches have some bio info on the pastors to gain some insight.


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 28, 2019)

John Yap said:


> I think with Whitefield being endorsed by Richard Barcellos and PRTS having many 1689 students, there definitely are options to consider



In what way has PRTS endorsed Whitefield? I assume you are referring to Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and the unaccredited Whitefield Theological Seminary, Lakeland, FL?


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 28, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> The spread of Modernist theological error in the last century primarily occurred by those in seminary settings. JEDP anyone? That didn't come from country bumpkin preachers..



No, but I did hear some country bumpkin preachers Mt 24:17 as a prooftext for women having to keep their hair up (usually in a bun). 

Also, in regards to JEDP, come on now...there are many fine ATS schools, it is disingenuous to suggest that ATS schools = theological error.

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## Pergamum (May 28, 2019)

Liberalism took over many seminaries in the last century, and so the Fundamentalists reacted against this and withdrew and founded many Bible colleges, instead, because they could not trust the mainline seminaries. These bible colleges were instrumental in sending out many missionaries, even while the mainline denominations declined. A few odd interpretations about hair buns drawn from Matthew 24 is nothing compared to disbelieving the virgin birth and resurrection and teaching it to many students. I'll take a country bumpkin over a theological liberal any day. 

In a prior thread we also talked about the circuit-riding ministers on the American frontier. While the seminary-trained mainlines often stayed in their towns, it was mostly the lower-educated Baptists and Methodists who trekked out West and founded new denominations. 

In Papua and many other places, once the missionary introduces Christianity, it is usually the indigenous peoples who spread it. Barefoot and sometimes illiterate Dani tribal evangelists have trekked every inch of the island. 

We can point out some cults in Africa, sure, or grieve the spread of Pentecostalism throughout Africa....but is it really any worse than the wholesale secularism and atheism taking over the West - even despite all of our education and all of our seminaries? Africa is sending her bishops to England to stop the spread of pro-homosexual priests among the Anglicans. The Majority World churches are usually much more theologically conservative than the West and all her seminaries. 

While we could wish that all ministers have adequate formal training, we should not diminish the efforts of poor and informally educated men of God. They've usually done more to spread the faith than the highly educated.


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 28, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I'll take a country bumpkin over a theological liberal any day.



Please understand that no one is trying to make this into a choice of either an educated liberal vs an uneducated conservative. This is extreme and something that you seem to be projecting into the conversation.

I often see those with little to no education push back very hard against "theological cemeteries," and I have known some ministers who feel vocational inadequacy because of the lack of formal training and sometimes develop this resistance to education in an effort to disguise their own inadequate feelings. I don't know anyone here in a capacity to even project that upon any members of PB and so I am not making an individual accusation, but merely sharing a general observation. However, I mention this as a caution, and in a similar way, I urge caution to the seminary educated who feel as elitist.

I don't see the affirmation of good education as something that comes at the expense of objectifying those who are poorly educated, any more than I would discourage a church to enjoy an air conditioner in worship because for the vast majority of Christian history there were no air-conditioned worship services.

So I will agree that God has used and will use those with poor education for His work, however, I will not waver in the affirmation that ministers of the gospel should receive the best training available. This is a high calling to be taken very seriously.


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## Pergamum (May 28, 2019)

ArminianOnceWas said:


> Please understand that no one is trying to make this into a choice of either an educated liberal vs an uneducated conservative. This is extreme and something that you seem to be projecting into the conversation.
> 
> I often see those with little to no education push back very hard against "theological cemeteries," and I have known some ministers who feel vocational inadequacy because of the lack of formal training and sometimes develop this resistance to education in an effort to disguise their own inadequate feelings. I don't know anyone here in a capacity to even project that upon any members of PB and so I am not making an individual accusation, but merely sharing a general observation. However, I mention this as a caution, and in a similar way, I urge caution to the seminary educated who feel as elitist.
> 
> ...



I am almost done with an accredited doctorate. I just cannot finish my dissertation right now because I've recently had a brain inflammation from parasites. I could hardly even read anything 2 months ago due to "swimmy" thoughts and brain fog.

There is a tendency to look down upon the lesser-educated men who are often doing the majority of the ministry work in most parts of the world. The illiterate tribal evangelists I know will enter the kingdom before most of the Ph.D.s of this world. 

Many US pastors go overseas and try to teach foreign pastors who are often more mature pastors than they are, yet only lack formal education. Some of these poor foreign men ought to come and teach US pastors...but, they have no money to do so. 

I agree with your note of caution on the seminary-educated who may feel elitist. 

----------

Getting back to the OP: 

I believe the best method of finding a solid Reformed Baptist Church is not in eliminating churches from the list if their pastors were not formally trained. 

The better method would be to examine the doctrine and character of each church. Some RB churches are theologically sound in preaching, but poor in application. Some pastors are not formally trained, but some of the best preachers I've ever heard. 

I do believe there may be a note of arrogance if a man flat-out states that he doesn't think he has anything to learn from a man who is not formally-trained and is unwilling to sit underneath their teaching. Automatically crossing these men off the list is unwarranted.


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 28, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> The illiterate tribal evangelists I know will enter the kingdom before most of the Ph.D.s of this world.
> 
> I do believe there may be a note of arrogance if a man flat-out states that he doesn't think he has anything to learn from a man who is not formally-trained and is unwilling to sit underneath their teaching. Automatically crossing these men off the list is unwarranted.



Again, I think you are really working on extremes here. No one has suggested crossing anyone off or that there is nothing to learn. Can't we distinguish the proper boundary here? Also, for someone who was sensitive and identified the potential pride of another brother in this thread, you are seeming to come across somewhat elitist yourself and potentially prideful in standing your ground. 

There is obviously emotional arousal and defensiveness playing a role here in this thread and the conversation is going in circles. This is far beyond the scope of the original post. Having said that, I am going to do my part to cease this circular conversation of pride and extremes that perhaps each of us have engaged in here, and I am walking away believing that repentance here is the most acceptable response. 

Much success on the completion of your academics and in all sincerity, I am adding the situation you referenced regarding your brain to my prayer list for the day. I'll return in a few days to read any response you have so as to not have the last word then exit, but I don't plan on giving anymore effort to this thread.


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## Pergamum (May 28, 2019)

ArminianOnceWas said:


> Again, I think you are really working on extremes here. No one has suggested crossing anyone off or that there is nothing to learn. Can't we distinguish the proper boundary here? Also, for someone who was sensitive and identified the potential pride of another brother in this thread, you are seeming to come across somewhat elitist yourself and potentially prideful in standing your ground.
> 
> There is obviously emotional arousal and defensiveness playing a role here in this thread and the conversation is going in circles. This is far beyond the scope of the original post. Having said that, I am going to do my part to cease this circular conversation of pride and extremes that perhaps each of us have engaged in here, and I am walking away believing that repentance here is the most acceptable response.
> 
> Much success on the completion of your academics and in all sincerity, I am adding the situation you referenced regarding your brain to my prayer list for the day. I'll return in a few days to read any response you have so as to not have the last word then exit, but I don't plan on giving anymore effort to this thread.



Remember, one of the early comments in this thread was: 

"I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education."


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## Pergamum (May 28, 2019)

Thanks for praying for my brain.


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## Jeri Tanner (May 28, 2019)

As Pastor Keister pointed out earlier, God wants his ministers trained. The “pattern of sound words” was passed from Paul to Timothy and he was to teach others in the same way. An untaught or poorly taught clergy has largely (not totally) been responsible for Pentecostalism in the West, and that plus mixing tribal superstition with Christianity in other parts of the world. Generally the worship of God is greatly degraded under an untaught clergy. Skill is required for rightly interpreting much of Scripture and God has designed it that way. Does he graciously receive the faith and worship of his own who are taught wrong? Yes. But it’s not his will that it should be so. In the times we live, it’s just the way it is. It doesn’t mean it’s desirable and we should pray that God would send laborers (and I believe that means educated ones, as agrees with the whole tenor of the Bible on those who teach his sheep) into the harvest.

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## Herald (May 28, 2019)

There are alternatives to traditional brick-and-mortar seminaries. Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary incorporates multi-media distance learning with some time necessary at their campus. As I recall, you must have a mentor at your home church who is vested in your training. CBTS has an accomplished faculty.


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## Timotheos (May 28, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> I am almost done with an accredited doctorate. I just cannot finish my dissertation right now because I've recently had a brain inflammation from parasites. I could hardly even read anything 2 months ago due to "swimmy" thoughts and brain fog.


Sorry to hear about this. What and where are you doing your doctorate? I find that we doctoral students need to stick together and help encourage one another.


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## Polanus1561 (May 28, 2019)

ArminianOnceWas said:


> I what way has PRTS endorsed Whitefield? I assume you are referring to Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and the unaccredited Whitefield Theological Seminary, Lakeland, FL?



Kindly read carefully...


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## Pergamum (May 29, 2019)

Timotheos said:


> Sorry to hear about this. What and where are you doing your doctorate? I find that we doctoral students need to stick together and help encourage one another.


Malaysia Baptist Theological Seminary, with the highest Asian accreditation. All coursework finished, but impossible to live among a remote tribe and do a dissertation. I can do it now, I think, since parasites are now gone


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## Timotheos (May 29, 2019)

LongWar said:


> Hello all,
> 
> One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information.
> 
> Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.


As I mentioned in a previous post, there are to my knowledge 4 RB seminaries of varying types that have emerged recently. I have hope that they will continue to thrive.

The purely residential RB seminary is IRBS Theological Seminary. They have a partnership w/ PRTS.

The hybrid types are Covenant Baptist TS (already mentioned above) and a newer one in Arkansas called Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

Then there is the fully online route of Reformed Baptist Seminary.

I also teach at a school in Roanoke (and surrounding areas), the Blue Ridge Institute for Theological Education, that adhere to the reformed confessions including the 1689. I believe it is one of the only seminaries (that I've found) that is confessionally broad (akin to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals). These type of smaller, confessional schools may very well be the future of seminary education if things keep going the way they are for the big seminary model.


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## Broadus (May 29, 2019)

I agree with the gist of everything that's been written. Quantifying training with a degree from an ATS-accredited institution is difficult, of course, and even the best seminaries (whatever criteria one uses) do not guarantee that the minister has been properly trained. Seminaries are all over the place with requirements, theology, and practice.

We have some very good Reformed Baptist seminaries (in my opinion), none of which are ATS-accredited as far as I know. And I just learned of the existence of Grace Bible Theological Seminary, which looks like another worthy effort, though its website isn't very complete.

Were I moving to a new place, I would examine churches' websites and try to get an overall feel for the ministry. Theological and practical emphases can help, and if sermons are online, all the better.

For what it's worth, my M.Div. and Ph.D. come from an ATS-accredited school, but such accreditation is less important to me now than it once was.


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## ArminianOnceWas (May 29, 2019)

John Yap said:


> Kindly read carefully...



I see now. The awkward compound sentence was missing a comma, thus leading to some confusion. Better use of language would have helped there my friend in addition to my multiple readings.


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## LongWar (May 29, 2019)

I understand the public argument that some seminaries give for not being accredited by the ATS/region, but in my opinion their underlying fear is that they will fail to earn accreditation and lose what credibility they have, so they do not try for it. There is a lot that goes into earning accreditation. I think that the top-shelf professors are naturally going to gravitate to schools who have established reputations, which makes it harder for the new schools to earn credibility and accreditation. If SBTS/SEBTS/WTS/etc. called any instructor at the unaccredited school with an offer, do you think they wouldn't accept it?

I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools, but outside of this forum, I have never heard of them. Is there potential that they could be the future of reformed baptist churches? In my opinion, absolutely! Not before they "legitimize" themselves through regional accreditation as a valid alternative to the SBTS/WTS level schools though.


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## Timotheos (May 29, 2019)

LongWar said:


> I understand the public argument that some seminaries give for not being accredited by the ATS/region, but in my opinion their underlying fear is that they will fail to earn accreditation and lose what credibility they have, so they do not try for it. There is a lot that goes into earning accreditation. I think that the top-shelf professors are naturally going to gravitate to schools who have established reputations, which makes it harder for the new schools to earn credibility and accreditation. If SBTS/SEBTS/WTS/etc. called any instructor at the unaccredited school with an offer, do you think they wouldn't accept it?
> 
> I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools, but outside of this forum, I have never heard of them. Is there potential that they could be the future of reformed baptist churches? In my opinion, absolutely! Not before they "legitimize" themselves through regional accreditation as a valid alternative to the SBTS/WTS level schools though.
> 
> ...edited to sound like less of a dick.


Just to be sure... you know PRTS is ATS accredited, right?

And IRBSTS is so new, you wouldn't have heard of them outside of the world of higher ed. 

As for a prof going from a smaller confessional school to a larger one w/ $$$, that depends on the convictions of the prof. I think some are very much dedicated to their institution's endeavors. Others (perhaps at the adjunct or assistant level) would like to advance in their career and may take a position elsewhere. But those founders of new schools are invested in their success and would not likely jump ship, In my humble opinion.


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## VictorBravo (May 29, 2019)

LongWar said:


> I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools



And before IRBS went on its own, it was affiliated with Westminster Seminary California. An IRBS grad would have received a Westminster diploma. My understanding is that they are actively working on accreditation, as opposed to shying away out of fear of failing.


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## LongWar (May 29, 2019)

Timotheos said:


> Just to be sure... you know PRTS is ATS accredited, right?
> 
> And IRBSTS is so new, you wouldn't have heard of them outside of the world of higher ed.
> 
> As for a prof going from a smaller confessional school to a larger one w/ $$$, that depends on the convictions of the prof. I think some are very much dedicated to their institution's endeavors. Others (perhaps at the adjunct or assistant level) would like to advance in their career and may take a position elsewhere. But those founders of new schools are invested in their success and would not likely jump ship, In my humble opinion.



I did know that, but regional accreditation is obviously a different/higher standard. 



VictorBravo said:


> And before IRBS went on its own, it was affiliated with Westminster Seminary California. An IRBS grad would have received a Westminster diploma. My understanding is that they are actively working on accreditation, as opposed to shying away out of fear of failing.


I had never heard that before r.e. WTS-C and IRBS. Very interesting. Glad to hear they are moving in the direction of accreditation.


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