# Loving the brethren with whom you disagree?



## Pilgrim's Progeny (Dec 14, 2008)

Brothers and sisters, how do you love and maintain healthy relationships with brothers and sisters with whom you disagree? I have dear ones who will not diaologue with me because they say I am not able to agree to disagree. I hate this label and want to do better. I want to dialogue with those who do not see things as I see them. I want those who differ to feel welcome to discuss the things we differ on without fear, how do you accomplish this? I believe this is a necessary transaction if both are to grow in the grace of our Lord. What think ye all?


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## Herald (Dec 14, 2008)

Brother Paul,

Much depends on the nature of the disagreement. Let's say you disagree with a brother on eschatology. You're amil and he is post-mil. Both of you should be able to display latitude towards one another and still enjoy fellowship. But what if the disagreement is more material; effecting how you live your life or how you worship? Baptism is one such area. Another is choosing whether or not to recognize the Christmas holiday. Families and friends can be torn over these issues; so much so that relationships are hindered. In such cases it is wise to allow the issue to be the point of disagreement and not yourself. The Apostle Paul wrote:

*Romans 12:18* 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 

Season your speech with grace. Determine whether you need to go on the record with areas of disagreement. If you must, present your convictions humbly. Look towards the feelings of the other person, not to the harm of your convictions, but in order that you may protect their conscience. Most times the manner in which we communicate our convictions is as equal or of more importance than the conviction itself, at least in the eyes of the one who disagrees with us. If contention must come, let it be over the issue itself.


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## Pilgrim's Progeny (Dec 14, 2008)

Josh,

I love verbiosity and succintness. I got the best of both here.

Thank you Mr. Brown


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## Jon Lake (Dec 14, 2008)

I can't realy add much to the collective wisdom Bill and Josh gave you, other than a simple: In disagreements in Theology, don't sweat things that are not deal-breakers, a Brother may be EP, you may or may not be. IF at the "end of the day" you KNOW your Brother is no heretic and IS a true Christian man, it is simply a function of worship, rejoice in your Brothers Faith! If he comes to you one day and says "You know, I think there is a LOT of truth in Mormonism." Your bounden duty is to carefully and Prayerfully confront him with the truth and Scripture and love, and keep him from falling into a snare of the Devil.


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## Pilgrim's Progeny (Dec 14, 2008)

Deal-breakers, I think that is it, I present my convictions with such a passion that they appear as deal-breakers. That is a good way to put it. Maybe that is why my dear friend told my wife, "I can talk to you about things that we disagree about and we can agree to disagree, but I cannot talk to Paul, he cannot agree to disagree."


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## Barnpreacher (Dec 14, 2008)

Pilgrim's Progeny said:


> Deal-breakers, I think that is it, I present my convictions with such a passion that they appear as deal-breakers. That is a good way to put it. Maybe that is why my dear friend told my wife, "I can talk to you about things that we disagree about and we can agree to disagree, but I cannot talk to Paul, he cannot agree to disagree."



Paul,

Perhaps you can point people to books that explain your positions if you are coming across the wrong way. That way if they are willing to talk about the book with you then you have a common ground to work from.


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## KMK (Dec 14, 2008)

Pilgrim's Progeny said:


> I want those who differ to feel welcome to discuss the things we differ on without fear, how do you accomplish this? *I believe this is a necessary transaction if both are to grow in the grace of our Lord. *What think ye all?



This phrase concerns me. Are you thinking that a relationship with a Christian brother is some kind of give and take? (transaction) Do you assume that when your brother gives you his opinion that it then your chance to give yours? Brotherly love is not about give and take, but simply give. Brotherly love is all about not seeking to please yourself but please your brother. Self sacrificial love is the example of Christ. Self-sacrificial love gives God glory. Self-sacrificial love is how you grow in grace.

Meditation upon Rom 14:1-15:7 has really helped me in this area.


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## Pilgrim's Progeny (Dec 14, 2008)

KMK said:


> Pilgrim's Progeny said:
> 
> 
> > I want those who differ to feel welcome to discuss the things we differ on without fear, how do you accomplish this? *I believe this is a necessary transaction if both are to grow in the grace of our Lord. *What think ye all?
> ...


 
I am using transaction in a different sense than you first percieved. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am merely expressing that dialogue between brethren must exist, even with the brethren with whom we disagree if we both are to be sharpened and refined. I suppose a better term would be *necessary or needed interaction. *Convictions are not covictions if they are not tested and tried, in my understanding of conviction.


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## Zenas (Dec 14, 2008)

Dunno if anyone said this already, but it might be them and not you. 

Some people use "agree to disagree" as a way of saying "You should politely abandon your position and adopt mine for the sake of being nice to me". And, if you don't, they claim you're some awful hard-head who is impossible to deal with. 

I suggest ignoring those people because they're as useless as their arguments.


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## Leslie (Dec 15, 2008)

One way to maintain peace is to be aware of explicit or implicit messages that indicate "End of discussion" and then stop there. Two of my friends have the nasty habit of rattling on and on about the same subject after I've indicated that termination of the discussion is appropriate. It's easier to be close-mouthed with these people than to say anything they might disagree with. It leaves them bereft of friendship, both mine and others'.


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## Tim (Dec 15, 2008)

This is an extremely important topic for Reformed Christians who take minority theological positions, as compared to the rest of (broad) evangelicalism. It is one of my greatest challenges these days. One wants to speak the truth to others, but doesn't want to drive them away.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 15, 2008)

One thing for sure that I have learned through the years is to respect others. Especially if they are older than I am. I think the scriptures mandate this. I make appeals to them realizing they have more experience whether their experience is good or bad. 

A good portion of scripture to meditate upon to your benefit would be 1 Corinthians 8. 

It also includes idolatry.



> (1Co 8:1) Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
> 
> (1Co 8:2) * And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.*
> 
> ...



Verse two has always been true of me. I am still learning and coming to deeper understanding. Of course there are the foundations that are elementary. They never change. But then you will build on that. 

This is another portion of scripture that has always been very good for me.



> (2Ti 2:24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
> 
> (2Ti 2:25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
> 
> (2Ti 2:26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



Holding to convictions and running over people with them is not patience. Sometimes the other guy is correct when you are not. Note the William Symington quote in my signature. 

I like John Owen's illustration about the heart. It is like a castle with rooms that you you have never seen and every time we see a new one we tend to open the door to something that we know nothing about and sin lays behind it. Our hearts are unsearchable. God alone knows the heart of men. But we do have the word of God to expose and light the room so that it can be discovered. Thy word is a lamp.....


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## Herald (Dec 15, 2008)

Tim said:


> This is an extremely important topic for Reformed Christians who take minority theological positions, as compared to the rest of (broad) evangelicalism. It is one of my greatest challenges these days. One wants to speak the truth to others, but doesn't want to drive them away.



Tim, I hear you. I live this problem all the time.


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## he beholds (Dec 15, 2008)

Titus 1:9


> 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.


Titus 2:1-3:11


> 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound [1] doctrine. 2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. 9 Slaves [2] are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
> 
> 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
> 
> 15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.



I think this was written to explain what must be taught to elders, and what an elder must in turn teach, so I may be taking this out of context, but it seems to me that there are important things that must be taught to others:

_But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine...Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us...Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. _

And there are things that should not take importance in a conversation:

_ But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless._

So if you are focusing on the latter, then as they are unprofitable or worthless, these conversations should be avoided. But if it is the former, where you are trying to teach them _what accords with sound doctrine_, then I would think these are things that you should not have to "agree to disagree." 

Except, I guess Titus has authority over the people that he's teaching in these examples (as will the elders that he's to appoint) so maybe this is really un-related since you will not have authority over your friends. But the principle may stand: avoid the unprofitable conversations?

I personally get very caught up in the unprofitable frequently.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 15, 2008)

One thing to remember is that it is not your job to convince them. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. Often Christians, Reformed or not, seem to think that debate with just the right argument can 'win' the person to the truth. This is not the case. Even if the argument used 'wins' the person over, if it is not the work of the Holy Spirit it will be temporal at best; if it is a genuine repentance to truth then it was the Holy Spirit who did the convincing, not you.

I am not saying that debate has no place. It is rarely needed in our daily life. But, far too many Reformed believers debate rather than discuss. There is a huge difference between the two. Discussion can move into debate, but rarely is the opposite true. And, when that occurs it is usually not a real debate but a fight. Fighting accomplishes nothing.


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## lynnie (Dec 15, 2008)

I think you would really- really really really very much- like Ken Sande's book The Peacemaker. While written to apply to conflicts and peacemaking, the principles apply to this sort of thing.

I have seen relationships wither up just because I nicely and in a friendly tone opened my mouth about the pretrib rapture, or some controversy like me voting 3rd party instead of McCain (who had a pro choice voting record). I wasn't even the one who initiated the conversation, and I said my piece and dropped it, but even that was a problem. So don't feel bad, sometimes you find out who your real friends are in honest dialogue.


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## reformed trucker (Jan 16, 2009)

Pilgrim's Progeny said:


> Brothers and sisters, how do you love and maintain healthy relationships with brothers and sisters with whom you disagree? I have dear ones who will not diaologue with me because they say I am not able to agree to disagree. I hate this label and want to do better. I want to dialogue with those who do not see things as I see them. I want those who differ to feel welcome to discuss the things we differ on without fear, how do you accomplish this? I believe this is a necessary transaction if both are to grow in the grace of our Lord. What think ye all?



I know this is late in the conversation... I just wanted to add this.

There is this guy that I have known through work for about 5 years, but all we ever had was small talk. About a year and a half ago, by providence, we had a chance to really talk. We were sitting on a freeway on-ramp loaded with hot asphalt waiting for the paver to come from the other side, and had about 45 minutes to kill.

We started talking about life, marriage, kids, self-employment and faith in God. We are from soooo different backgrounds. I'm a white country boy who lives in the 'burbs; he is black, formerly thuggish (did some time) and lives in the inner city. I became "reformed" about 3 years ago; he is more Apostolic/Charismatic. What we have in common is our faith in Christ.

I am about 10 years older than him. He knows that I am well-read and study alot, so he respects my opinions. I try not to come across as a know-it-all
(even when I am right). We talk on the phone at least once a week;usually about 2 1/2 to 3 hours. We both have our bibles out. I'll have my concordance, commentaries and some books I am reading/read pertinent to the topic at hand. We dig into scripture together. We discuss the things of life. We pray for each other. We respect each other though we differ.

Barnpreacher's suggestion was good. I gave my friend the Amazing Grace/Calvinism DVD to spark conversation (he still thinks you can loose your salvation). When "Respectable Sins" by Jerry Bridges came out, I got us both copies and we read through it together. God used that to weed some stuff out of our lives. All of our conversations have been "Iron sharpens Iron". Speak the truth in love, backed up in scripture. Hitting him over the head with a copy of Calvin's Institutes won't bring him around to my way of thinking. Only the Holy Spirit can bring that change. Don't try and win an arguement for the sake of being right.

 {kinda}
HSAT:
Over the last month, there have been some treads that ruffled my feathers. I could see points from both sides of the table. It wasn't what was being said, but rather HOW it was being said. I thought there was a little too much "snarkyness" for a CHRISTIAN discussion board! Got so cheesed off one time I shut off the computer and went to bed; didn't wait for it to shut down properly... just hit the off button. Won't say which thread, but I'm sure Pergy remembers. Do we want "Iron sharpens Iron", or only to "be right"?

Just my ...[end of rant]


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## calgal (Jan 16, 2009)

Is the issue salvic is the question I am learning to ask. Saves a lot of fuss and drama.


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