# Science labs necessary for understanding?



## AThornquist (Dec 23, 2009)

I am considering the option of transferring out to Boyce College and later attending SBTS as well. In the mean time while I am home I want to learn different trades while taking classes that would be of an educational benefit but aren't required, such as various science classes. My question is about the necessity of science labs. My ultimate desire is to work in vocational ministry but I want to have a knowledge of concepts and facts related to various areas of science. Are the science labs of much importance then? I don't need to meet a requirement, I just want an understanding. Would the labs give me a worthwhile difference in how a view a particular field of science?

Thank you.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 23, 2009)

Take all the chances you can get to obtain knowledge. There is no such thing as useless knowledge. I once heard Carl Trueman in a lecture speaking about John Owen's personal library and how it contained books on everything from Chemistry to Poetry to Animal Husbandry.


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## AThornquist (Dec 23, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Take all the chances you can get to obtain knowledge. There is no such thing as useless knowledge. I once heard Carl Trueman in a lecture speaking about John Owen's personal library and how it contained books on everything from Chemistry to Poetry to Animal Husbandry.



You're right. I suppose I should be more clear: perhaps I only have a certain amount of time. The Spring semester starts in a couple of weeks, so what about if I have this Spring, the summer, and next Fall and Spring--about a year a half. For this short time-frame, would the labs be worth it, or do you think the regular classes would be sufficient for a basic understanding?


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## AltogetherLovely (Dec 23, 2009)

Take the regular classes.

Until reaching higher level classes in a technical major, every lab session is pretty much useless and tedious.


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## Pergamum (Dec 23, 2009)

While gaining as much knowledge as possible is good, there is also a need to refine and focus your attention.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 23, 2009)

Just so you know. Science labs can be done without a 'lab'. My father went to a rural school in Georgia. They drew out their lab on a blackboard. And worked the experiment out mathematically. When he went to college he tested out of all of his science, both lecture and lab after having about fifteen minutes to acquaint himself with the lab equipment.


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## toddpedlar (Dec 23, 2009)

AltogetherLovely said:


> Take the regular classes.
> 
> Until reaching higher level classes in a technical major, every lab session is pretty much useless and tedious.



I don't think I could disagree with this more strenuously. While it is the case that at some institutions labs are taught poorly, I will say that if you do not develop a reasonable level of experience in laboratory methods you do not understand the sciences you've studied.


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## Nate (Dec 23, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> AltogetherLovely said:
> 
> 
> > Take the regular classes.
> ...



I agree. Properly taught labs will give you practical knowledge and experience, allowing you to better understand the concepts taught in the lecture hall.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 23, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> AltogetherLovely said:
> 
> 
> > Take the regular classes.
> ...



Just so you know, I don't disagree with this at all. I took a lot of science both lecture and lab. Once you get beyond the basics it would be very difficult to do what my father did!


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## Nate (Dec 23, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > AltogetherLovely said:
> ...



I suppose it depends on the institution where you take the basic courses, but many basic science courses today can be quite technical and often teach at the 100 level what was taught at the 400-500 level only a few years ago.


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## smhbbag (Dec 23, 2009)

> I don't think I could disagree with this more strenuously. While it is the case that at some institutions labs are taught poorly, I will say that if you do not develop a reasonable level of experience in laboratory methods you do not understand the sciences you've studied.



I'm perplexed by this. I've taken lower level chemistry, biology, and physics at both community colleges and a research university with a strong reputation, as well as plenty of upper level courses in physics for an engineering program.

In chemistry, we had many different kinds of labs, but nearly all of them involved investigating the properties of certain compounds and how they interact. The textbook states how they interact. The lab section then tells students in tedious detail how to test/show those properties. After following many pages of directions, recording far too many individual iterations, etc. - we discover that we get exactly what the textbook said we would. 

The same occurred in the first couple semesters of calculus based physics. We learned what would happen with a current creating a magnetic field, or something similar, and then showed physically what the textbook already clearly stated. 

There are a few valuable things that come from having laboratory sessions in lower level classes, though. They introduce students to physical lab equipment, nomenclature, etc., and help students understand how to properly design and carry out an experiment. Students learn how easy it is to throw a result off if the experimenter is not very careful and detail-oriented. This process does a fantastic job of laying groundwork for a student to do well in higher-level courses or in graduate school where they must begin to attempt to learn new things or do research where the result is not already known.

For that reason, I'm highly in favor of lab sessions as a means to prepare students for more rigorous courses ahead. Without it, a student is at a serious disadvantage. However, I have not seen any indication that the lab session actually helps people get a better grasp of what is taught in the 101 course. You can have a perfectly valid understanding of the law of gravity without going outside to drop things off a roof. 

All that to say - a diligent student can come away from Chemistry/Physics/Biology 101 with an understanding of the subject just as strong whether there is a lab component or not. But, not having a lab puts that student at a huge disadvantage for later work in the subject.


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## Scottish Lass (Dec 23, 2009)

Can't help you with the science lab question (I took geology to avoid as much scientific math as possible!), but if/when you're ready to visit the campus, let us know--we have a guest room you could use while checking out your options.


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## DeborahtheJudge (Dec 24, 2009)

What exactly do you want to do?

You could volunteer to help a professor in his lab, if he'll let you. I found general chemistry and biology labs very tedious, but upper level lab classes and research opened me up to a new world. When you have the freedom to create and design experiments, labs become very exciting --and challenge you to learn the material to new depths.

The other thing you could do if you have a basic grasp of a textbook subject is study new journal articles in the field. That takes a while too however. Science is a time-consuming affair.


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## AThornquist (Dec 24, 2009)

DeborahtheJudge said:


> What exactly do you want to do?
> 
> You could volunteer to help a professor in his lab, if he'll let you. I found general chemistry and biology labs very tedious, but upper level lab classes and research opened me up to a new world. When you have the freedom to create and design experiments, labs become very exciting --and challenge you to learn the material to new depths.
> 
> The other thing you could do if you have a basic grasp of a textbook subject is study new journal articles in the field. That takes a while too however. Science is a time-consuming affair.



I desire to be an elder in time and I have been urged by my elders to pursue this goal. All I want out of the science classes is to, for now, have a basic level understanding of various sciences.


Anyway, thanks all for the input. I appreciate it.


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## Brian Withnell (Dec 24, 2009)

smhbbag said:


> There are a few valuable things that come from having laboratory sessions in lower level classes, though. They introduce students to physical lab equipment, nomenclature, etc., and help students understand how to properly design and carry out an experiment. Students learn how easy it is to throw a result off if the experimenter is not very careful and detail-oriented. This process does a fantastic job of laying groundwork for a student to do well in higher-level courses or in graduate school where they must begin to attempt to learn new things or do research where the result is not already known.



I suppose I am of the opinion that any basic science course is folly if it does not verify the findings presented in the book. While I accept by faith Scripture, I do not accept by faith what I read in a science text. The use of labs goes a long way toward allowing an individual to do what science is all about ... being able to prove a hypothesis false.

I do not accept the authority of a scientist because of his advanced degree, I accept what he says because it can be verified, and if he has a worthwhile hypothesis, it can be falsified through some kind of experimental test.


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## jwithnell (Dec 24, 2009)

I'll echo what my husband said: learning science, is learning "doing." While some labs show repeatability, some should give students the opportunity to consider changes to the experiment and to develop hypothesis about what those changes will bring about. Developing hypothesis, making observations and recording the information in a way that others may be able to repeat the experiment ... these are all science and worthwhile skills to have.

Not that learning _about_ science data is a waste of time. Many colleges will offer non-majors classes that explore different topics without the lab experience. Both are valuable. Strange but true: a zillion times over the years I've referred to info from an urban geology class -- the soil structure and how it affects buildings (including that house you're about to buy). drilling for water, septic systems ....


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## DeborahtheJudge (Dec 24, 2009)

A lot of lower level labs are technically "false" anyways. lol.


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## Skyler (Dec 24, 2009)

I can tell you that electronics labs really help to solidify the concepts you'e learning in the lectures.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 24, 2009)

I guess it boils down to the difference between geeks and wonks.

I'm a geek. I absolutely loved labs. It didn't matter. Chemistry and its wonderful smells and potential danger, physics and its gadgets, electronics (sounds, smells, and lights!), radio-chemistry (I'm talking Geiger counters--things kids dream about!). Labs are the playground for the curious.

Of course, poorly taught canned labs can be tedious, but so is learning most every other basic skill. Yes, you have to clean the dishes and be careful about touching things. The oil from you skin can throw off weight measurements. Neglect your checklist or forget to record a data point and you've wasted an entire afternoon.

Such attention to detail applies to more than science.

But I know that not everyone is a geek. The wonks of the world can happily get by with having an intellectual understanding of how things work. I think it boils down to counting the cost and numbering the days.

But I still resonate with this quote from Thoreau:



> the boy who had made his own jackknife from the ore which he had dug and smelted, reading as much as would be necessary for this — or the boy who had attended the lectures on metallurgy at the Institute in the meanwhile, and had received a Rodgers’ penknife from his father? Which would be most likely to cut his fingers?



To be sure, Thoreau had plenty of book learning, and I think that's valuable. But getting your hands dirty is (for some folks anyway) fun!


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## Pergamum (Dec 24, 2009)

> 12And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.




If you are wanting to be an elder, taking writing classes/journalism, public speaking, communication, all would fit better than science labs. While learning is good, there is a need in life to be focused and not get distracted. 

Do you have the spare time and money? Can you be a good steward and stilll take classes that will not further your life-goals?


Your local library has many free books, and books-on-tape, including The Great Courses series. 

If you want to pursue vocational ministry, learning all you can is good, but at some point your spare time could be spent learning deeper, rather than broader, so that you can make an real impact in your chosen vocation.


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