# Should I be concerned about attending Westminster Seminary California because of pandemic shut downs/government over reach?



## Matt Ryan (Nov 10, 2021)

Brothers,
I was intending to apply at WTS for Fall of 2022 to pursue a MAR in Theology and a PhD. I live about an hour from WTS in Philadelphia but due to a medical condition my wife's doctor suggested we consider moving to a warmer climate. So I have been looking at WSC in Escondido, CA but I'm apprehensive on account of the political climate, particularly the covid restrictions, mandates and harsh shut downs over the past 2 years. 

Could anyone speak to this situation? Does anyone else share my reservations? I would especially appreciate current students counsel! Thanks!


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## Andrew's Myth (Nov 10, 2021)

I graduated WSCAL this spring. The last 3 semesters I was there (of 6 total) were pretty severely disrupted by COVID (either only online or hybrid with masking requirements). Right now, the seminary is open to in-person instruction and California doesn't seem to be pressing new restrictions at the moment. However, if there are any new restrictions, you can expect the seminary to comply fully. There also is some vaccinated/unvaccinated discrimination going on if that is a concern to you, as mandated by San Diego County (https://wscal.edu/media/docs/202122WSC_COVID_Guidelines.pdf)


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## KMK (Nov 10, 2021)

The cost of living and tuition would be greater concerns than COVID.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 10, 2021)

Andrew's Myth said:


> I graduated WSCAL this spring. The last 3 semesters I was there (of 6 total) were pretty severely disrupted by COVID (either only online or hybrid with masking requirements). Right now, the seminary is open to in-person instruction and California doesn't seem to be pressing new restrictions at the moment. However, if there are any new restrictions, you can expect the seminary to comply fully. There also is some vaccinated/unvaccinated discrimination going on if that is a concern to you, as mandated by San Diego County (https://wscal.edu/media/docs/202122WSC_COVID_Guidelines.pdf)


Thanks. That's helpful. I noticed that WSC received government funds through the pandemic so I figured they wouldn't be in a position to resist mandates. I did also notice the vaccinated/unvaccinated distinction. Did you experience that at all during your time there? Do they require proof of vaccination?

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 10, 2021)

KMK said:


> The cost of living and tuition would be greater concerns than COVID.



Cost of living looks like it would be largely mitigated by their new residential community which has very reasonable lease prices. And while they're not cheap, their tuition costs are significantly less than WTS or TEDS (among others). Depends on scholarships/financial aid too. I'm concerned about covid regulations because if I'm going to make the investment and move across the country for 3 years, I don't want to be locked down and stuck with online or hybrid courses.


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## Andrew's Myth (Nov 10, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Thanks. That's helpful. I noticed that WSC received government funds through the pandemic so I figured they wouldn't be in a position to resist mandates. I did also notice the vaccinated/unvaccinated distinction. Did you experience that at all during your time there? Do they require proof of vaccination?


The vaccines came to be near the tail end of my time there, so it wasn't really an issue. I don't know if they're requiring proof now or not.


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## Edward (Nov 10, 2021)

There used to be a couple of Westminster California folks on here. I'll see if I can dig one out after work. 

It's hard to compete with the San Diego climate, but there are several RTS seminaries in warm and temperate areas.


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 10, 2021)

RTS Orlando? Florida and its nearer.

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## nickipicki123 (Nov 10, 2021)

San Diego's vaccine and mask rules are going to be a lot different than Los Angeles or San Fransisco, FWW. I doubt they're going to implement a vaccine mandate. But idk about WSCal itself.


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## Romans922 (Nov 10, 2021)

You live in New Jersey. Go to RPTS, GPTS, or PRTS. All better, cheaper, and closer to you.

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## Regi Addictissimus (Nov 10, 2021)

Romans922 said:


> You live in New Jersey. Go to RPTS, GPTS, or PRTS. All better, cheaper, and closer to you.





Matt Ryan said:


> due to a medical condition my wife's doctor suggested we consider moving to a warmer climate.


I can assure you, MI (PRTS) is not a warmer climate than CA (WSCAL).

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## Charles Johnson (Nov 10, 2021)

Regi Addictissimus said:


> I can assure you, MI (PRTS) is not a warmer climate than CA (WSCAL).


GPTS, though, is in the south.

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## Regi Addictissimus (Nov 10, 2021)

Charles Johnson said:


> GPTS, though, is in the south.


I am aware as I have been there many times. As you know, I only commented on PRTS.

GPTS is, indeed, in the south, but it is also humid. The question is whether the health issues require a drier climate or a warm climate with humidity being of no concern.


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 11, 2021)

John Yap said:


> RTS Orlando? Florida and its nearer.



Yes move to Florida. Santis is doing good work there. Stay well away from California.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 11, 2021)

Regi Addictissimus said:


> I am aware as I have been there many times. As you know, I only commented on PRTS.
> 
> GPTS is, indeed, in the south, but it is also humid. The question is whether the health issues require a drier climate or a warm climate with humidity being of no concern.


I am not a doctor but I am pretty good with google. In all seriousness, though, drier climes are better than humid climes (I live in Louisiana).


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

I appreciate the various suggestions. While I don't wish to pay a billion dollars for my education, cost isn't my biggest concern. My reason for desiring to go to WTS (originally) and now considering WSC (because of my wife's health) are the particular distinctives of those schools, particularly their approach to systematic theology viewed through a redemptive historical/biblical theological lens, their understanding of Christ as the substance of true biblical preaching, presuppositional apologetics, etc).

Is anyone concerned about the influence of CRT at RTS?


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## Taylor (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Is anyone concerned about the influence of CRT at RTS?


Frankly, brother, if you are worried about CRT creeping into your seminary education, I would avoid all major/flagship seminaries, including ones that purport to be Reformed. The ones Pastor Barnes recommended above are solid and free of liberal nonsense.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Is anyone concerned about the influence of CRT at RTS?



My understanding is that Jackson at least pulled back somewhat. I'm not clear just how much of a platform they gave Jemar Tisby to promote his views. He's no longer there, so that's good.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Frankly, brother, if you are worried about CRT creeping into your seminary education, I would avoid all major/flagship seminaries, including ones that purport to be Reformed. The ones Pastor Barnes recommended above are solid and free of liberal nonsense.


I haven't heard of any of that nonsense at WSC/WTS. I'll check out RPTS, GPTS. I didn't know they existed till now.


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## retroGRAD3 (Nov 12, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> My understanding is that Jackson at least pulled back somewhat. I'm not clear just how much of a platform they gave Jemar Tisby to promote his views. He's no longer there, so that's good.


Is Ligon Duncan still involved? He is still trending very woke. He is also the one that platformed Tisby for awhile.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Is Ligon Duncan still involved? He is still trending very woke. He is also the one that platformed Tisby for awhile.


Yes, he's the President. Thus my concern. I want to pursue a PhD in order to teach, so I think I ought to go the accredited route.


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## retroGRAD3 (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Yes, he's the President. Thus my concern. I want to pursue a PhD in order to teach, so I think I ought to go the accredited route.


I have always heard good things about Mid America Reformed.


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## Andrew's Myth (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> I haven't heard of any of that nonsense at WSC/WTS. I'll check out RPTS, GPTS. I didn't know they existed till now.


Sadly, there is some of that nonsense (CRT) at WSC. It's mostly driven by students and some area churches, but it's there.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

nickipicki123 said:


> San Diego's vaccine and mask rules are going to be a lot different than Los Angeles or San Fransisco, FWW. I doubt they're going to implement a vaccine mandate. But idk about WSCal itself.


I expected it could come from the state level, not the county.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

Andrew's Myth said:


> Sadly, there is some of that nonsense (CRT) at WSC. It's mostly driven by students and some area churches, but it's there.


Well, unfortunately there's likely no way to avoid that altogether. When Paul was leaving Ephesus he said that some of the elders would turn out to be wolves. Its probably safe to say that no matter where we are we will be required to contend for the faith. I just don't want to make the investment required to attend seminary if that is trending in that direction among its leadership/professors.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Is Ligon Duncan still involved? He is still trending very woke. He is also the one that platformed Tisby for awhile.



He's the chancellor. I know he isn't personally woke. I see him the same way as Mohler. Personally conservative while sometimes platforming those who aren't (although I don't know of any who are currently teaching Wokism at RTS. I'd be surprised if there were).

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Yes, he's the President. Thus my concern. I want to pursue a PhD in order to teach, so I think I ought to go the accredited route.



Do you want to teach at college/university? If so, you will almost have to get the PhD from either a divinity school or a big-name college. While I am quite reticent to link to James KA Smith, his series on grad schools is required reading.





So You Want to Go to Grad School: Choosing Schools (2) – James K. A. Smith







jameskasmith.com









Choosing Schools (Philosophical Theology): Supplement – James K. A. Smith







jameskasmith.com









So You Want to Go to Grad School: Choosing Schools (1) – James K. A. Smith







jameskasmith.com

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## Taylor (Nov 12, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> I haven't heard of any of that nonsense at WSC/WTS.


I can’t speak for WSC, but I’ve heard things out of WTS that are troubling. Honestly, I believe ATS accreditation is dangerous and corrupting our seminaries. As someone who in his youthful arrogance and foolishness attended a big-name seminary for the big name, I would implore you not to take that route. I know you want to teach (I did, too), but focus more on solid, thorough, and godly Reformed training by qualified men over accreditation.

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## retroGRAD3 (Nov 12, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He's the chancellor. I know he isn't personally woke. I see him the same way as Mohler. Personally conservative while sometimes platforming those who aren't (although I don't know of any who are currently teaching Wokism at RTS. I'd be surprised if there were).


Unfortunately Ligon is woke himself, perhaps not completely though. He wrote the forward to woke church by Eric Mason and endorsed it. Also, I am not sure if you saw the video about how his black friends couldn't trust him because of the color of his skin ("for very good reasons" he stated), but that one was bad.

Also, if you are platforming someone, I would see that as approving of it at some level. I do believe Mohler has more to answer for on that front. The SBC in general these days is a disaster. I can't speak to wokism being specifically taught at RTS. I will take your word on that.

Edit: my conclusion from the "very good reason reasons" comment is he is buying into the CRT definitions of being white/whiteness. The only other "good reason" could be that Ligon is an actual racist (which I don't believe is true at all).

https://rumble.com/vk8a6s-ligon-dun...ends-have-trouble-trusting-me-for-really.html (start around 1:20 mark)

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Unfortunately Ligon is woke himself, perhaps not completely though. He wrote the forward to woke church by Eric Mason and endorsed it. Also, I am not sure if you saw the video about how his black friends couldn't trust him because of the color of his skin ("for very good reasons" he stated), but that one was bad.
> 
> Also, if you are platforming someone, I would see that as approving of it at some level. I do believe Mohler has more to answer for on that front. The SBC in general these days is a disaster. I can't speak to wokism being specifically taught at RTS. I will take your word on that.
> 
> Edit: my conclusion from the "very good reason reasons" comment is he is buying into the CRT definitions of being white/whiteness. The only other "good reason" could be that Ligon is an actual racist (which I don't believe is true at all).



I remember that now.

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## ZackF (Nov 12, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Is Ligon Duncan still involved? He is still trending very woke. He is also the one that platformed Tisby for awhile.


Now he works for Kendi.


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## iainduguid (Nov 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I can’t speak for WSC, but I’ve heard things out of WTS that are troubling. Honestly, I believe ATS accreditation is dangerous and corrupting our seminaries. As someone who in his youthful arrogance and foolishness attended a big-name seminary for the big name, I would implore you not to take that route. I know you want to teach (I did, too), but focus more on solid, thorough, and godly Reformed training by qualified men over accreditation.


Anyone with questions about WTS should feel free to PM me.

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## retroGRAD3 (Nov 12, 2021)

ZackF said:


> Now he works for Kendi.


Is this true of Ligon Duncan? Or, are you referring to Tisby? With Tisby, this is true.


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## Doulos 2 (Nov 12, 2021)

For what it's worth, I'm currently taking my last classes for the M.A.B.S degree through RTS virtual and there has been absolutely zero CRT or any other "woke" ideas propagated in any of the classes I've taken. It's all been solid, confessional Reformed content. In all my interactions with professors and fellow students there also has been no advocacy for CRT or any other "woke" ideas.

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## Mrs. B-N (Nov 12, 2021)

Totally off topic, but seminaries like Westminister recieve finds from the federal government?? The mind boggles at the implications of this. Who ever thought this was a good idea?!


Matt Ryan said:


> Thanks. That's helpful. I noticed that WSC received government funds through the pandemic so I figured they wouldn't be in a position to resist mandates. I did also notice the vaccinated/unvaccinated distinction. Did you experience that at all during your time there? Do they require proof of vaccination?


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## ZackF (Nov 12, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Is this true of Ligon Duncan? Or, are you referring to Tisby? With Tisby, this is true.


Tisby only.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 12, 2021)

Doulos 2 said:


> For what it's worth, I'm currently taking my last classes for the M.A.B.S degree through RTS virtual and there has been absolutely zero CRT or any other "woke" ideas propagated in any of the classes I've taken. It's all been solid, confessional Reformed content. In all my interactions with professors and fellow students there also has been no advocacy for CRT or any other "woke" ideas.


Glad to hear it.


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## Irenaeus (Nov 12, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> He's the chancellor. I know he isn't personally woke. I see him the same way as Mohler. Personally conservative while sometimes platforming those who aren't (although I don't know of any who are currently teaching Wokism at RTS. I'd be surprised if there were).


Dr. Duncan is a little bit personally woke. He's changed in the last few years. There is some wokeness at RTS Orlando among the leadership as part of a general trend toward being "compassionate" and "winsome" which sometimes means what it says and sometimes doesn't. But RTS-O is doing a lot of good stuff in other areas so there's no question that it's overall a good place. It's just not strongly confessional and a bit wobbly on some of those issues.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 12, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> Dr. Duncan is a little bit personally woke. He's changed in the last few years. There is some wokeness at RTS Orlando among the leadership as part of a general trend toward being "compassionate" and "winsome" which sometimes means what it says and sometimes doesn't. But RTS-O is doing a lot of good stuff in other areas so there's no question that it's overall a good place. It's just not strongly confessional and a bit wobbly on some of those issues.



I was in his class in 2006 and that's the last I interacted with him. He just seemed generic conservative at that time.

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## Gwallard (Nov 12, 2021)

As one who recently graduated from WTS Philly, it's a mixed bag there about CRT and the like. There is a "sensitivity" about it, if you know what I mean, and many students are on board. We discussed BLM it in a class and it was not pretty - about three of us were staunchly opposed, more were staunchly for, but the great majority were in the middle tending toward for. The sensitivity is perhaps close to how World Mag deals with it.

On the tuition note, though, you might call. They recently overhauled their program so that all donor money goes to scholarships - I don't know all about it, but they may be liberal in giving it out. They may not. But in general WTS has scared me more than it has encouraged me on the CRT levels.

Mask mandate was in effect as long as the government mandated it, but graduation was thankfully very mask-less.

Hope that helps, let me know if I can answer anything!

Edit: Seeing a certain WTS Prof has commented, I'm sure he knows more, and I defer all difficult things to him.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 15, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> As one who recently graduated from WTS Philly, it's a mixed bag there about CRT and the like. There is a "sensitivity" about it, if you know what I mean, and many students are on board. We discussed BLM it in a class and it was not pretty - about three of us were staunchly opposed, more were staunchly for, but the great majority were in the middle tending toward for. The sensitivity is perhaps close to how World Mag deals with it.
> 
> On the tuition note, though, you might call. They recently overhauled their program so that all donor money goes to scholarships - I don't know all about it, but they may be liberal in giving it out. They may not. But in general WTS has scared me more than it has encouraged me on the CRT levels.
> 
> ...


That's really helpful. Thank you!


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 17, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> As one who recently graduated from WTS Philly, it's a mixed bag there about CRT and the like. There is a "sensitivity" about it, if you know what I mean, and many students are on board. We discussed BLM it in a class and it was not pretty - about three of us were staunchly opposed, more were staunchly for, but the great majority were in the middle tending toward for. The sensitivity is perhaps close to how World Mag deals with it.
> 
> On the tuition note, though, you might call. They recently overhauled their program so that all donor money goes to scholarships - I don't know all about it, but they may be liberal in giving it out. They may not. But in general WTS has scared me more than it has encouraged me on the CRT levels.
> 
> ...



I'd be more inclined to trust a student's experience. Students have a far better grasp of the culture on a campus than individual teachers.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 17, 2021)

Gwallard said:


> As one who recently graduated from WTS Philly, it's a mixed bag there about CRT and the like. There is a "sensitivity" about it, if you know what I mean, and many students are on board. We discussed BLM it in a class and it was not pretty - about three of us were staunchly opposed, more were staunchly for, but the great majority were in the middle tending toward for. The sensitivity is perhaps close to how World Mag deals with it.
> 
> On the tuition note, though, you might call. They recently overhauled their program so that all donor money goes to scholarships - I don't know all about it, but they may be liberal in giving it out. They may not. But in general WTS has scared me more than it has encouraged me on the CRT levels.
> 
> ...


What class did you guys discuss it? No need to name profs. Just curious what sort of course.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 17, 2021)

Andrew's Myth said:


> I graduated WSCAL this spring. The last 3 semesters I was there (of 6 total) were pretty severely disrupted by COVID (either only online or hybrid with masking requirements). Right now, the seminary is open to in-person instruction and California doesn't seem to be pressing new restrictions at the moment. However, if there are any new restrictions, you can expect the seminary to comply fully. There also is some vaccinated/unvaccinated discrimination going on if that is a concern to you, as mandated by San Diego County (https://wscal.edu/media/docs/202122WSC_COVID_Guidelines.pdf)


Did you happen to live on campus in the new housing community?


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## Andrew's Myth (Nov 18, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Did you happen to live on campus in the new housing community?


I did. The apartments are nice, and they're affordable for the area, though probably still higher than what you'll pay for comparable places in most of the country.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 18, 2021)

Andrew's Myth said:


> I did. The apartments are nice, and they're affordable for the area, though probably still higher than what you'll pay for comparable places in most of the country.


Any chance they allow pets to your knowledge?


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 18, 2021)

WSCAL gives grants for prospective students to travel onsite to check out the place. I am sure they are willing to clear up any questions about attending there.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 18, 2021)

so I heard. I’ll likely take advantage of that opportunity in January.


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## Andrew's Myth (Nov 19, 2021)

Matt Ryan said:


> Any chance they allow pets to your knowledge?


Officially no, but exceptions seem to abound as there were lots of pets there when I was around.

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## Matt Ryan (Nov 19, 2021)

RTS confirmed they allow pets. Has anyone lived on campus at RTS? I have 3 kids, a wife and a dog. Floor plan is not on the website for a 3br apartment. Or does anyone know if the pool is a lap pool/JR Olympic?


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 19, 2021)

Brother, even if you get an answer to a question here, wouldn't you want to confirm directly with RTS anyways for such a big decision?


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 19, 2021)

John Yap said:


> Brother, even if you get an answer to a question here, wouldn't you want to confirm directly with RTS anyways for such a big decision


That's correct.


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