# Explaining the Importance of Sunday Worship and the RPW to other Christians



## reformed_vanilla (Jun 14, 2012)

A large number of my friends have Presbyterian sympathies and would consider themselves Presbyterian, however they do not hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Recently, I have been discussing Sunday worship and the RPW with them. 

So far I have been told by them:
a) Christians have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.
b) A church is free to have a Saturday or Wednesday evening service _instead of_ a Sunday service.
c) Scriptural proofs on my copy of the WCF are invalid as "all those references are from Exodus which is the OLD covenant which we have been set free from!!!!"
d) Sunday worship was abolished by Jesus.
e) You need more Bible verses to prove that we should worship in the way the Bible commands us to. 
f) Clapping in church is completely fine.
g) Your worship is too vertical, and you need to work on your horizontal worship. 

How do we go about explaining to less Reformed Christians why we should worship on Sunday and why we should worship in the way God commanded us? 



Also, have I put this in the right Forum? Should this have gone in "Defending the Faith" under Apologetics?


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## Afterthought (Jun 14, 2012)

> d) Sunday worship was abolished by Jesus.


There was no weekly public worship on the first day of the week (which I think is what is meant by "Sunday worship"?) for Jesus to abolish. I'd be interested in seeing people respond to these; I've often had trouble explaining to others in a convincing manner why we are obligated to meet for public worship. I've brought up the example of Jesus teaching in the synagogue before, but there was question as to whether Jesus was merely following Jewish law, since not all of what Jesus did is binding on Christians (maybe I'll make a thread on that sometime when I have time).



> a) Christians have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.


How do they respond to Jesus explicitly saying He came not to destroy the law? (Matthew 5) Do they say that was for the Jews only, or do they subsume the Sabbath under the ceremonial law?


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## rbcbob (Jun 14, 2012)

The church under apostolic authority and teaching were commanded to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Furthermore they assembled on the first day of the week. Furthermore the early church under apostolic authority was told explicitly regarding the specific elements comprising their corporate worship. See the epistles of Timothy and Titus.


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## Andres (Jun 14, 2012)

reformed_vanilla said:


> g) Your worship is too vertical, and you need to work on your horizontal worship.



Forgive my ignorance, but I have no clue what this is supposed to mean.


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## AThornquist (Jun 14, 2012)

Andres said:


> reformed_vanilla said:
> 
> 
> > g) Your worship is too vertical, and you need to work on your horizontal worship.
> ...



Crowd surfing over worshiper waves?


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## reformed_vanilla (Jun 14, 2012)

> There was no weekly public worship on the first day of the week (which I think is what is meant by "Sunday worship"?) for Jesus to abolish. I'd be interested in seeing people respond to these; I've often had trouble explaining to others in a convincing manner why we are obligated to meet for public worship. I've brought up the example of Jesus teaching in the synagogue before, but there was question as to whether Jesus was merely following Jewish law, since not all of what Jesus did is binding on Christians (maybe I'll make a thread on that sometime when I have time).



That's one of the reasons I feel I'm banging my head against a brick wall. It's established that the early church would meet together on Sunday, but the early church had plenty of issues itself, and historical precedent is rarely a valid argument in the minds of modern Australian evangelicals. 



> How do they respond to Jesus explicitly saying He came not to destroy the law? (Matthew 5) Do they say that was for the Jews only, or do they subsume the Sabbath under the ceremonial law?



They subsume Sabbath under the ceremonial law. Apparently the only law which is valid is to love your neighbour as yourself...
I should have placed more weight on Matthew 5, and it did cross my mind, however I'm fighting against the accusation of legalism, and they would have interpreted that as being legalistic and wrong.



> The church under apostolic authority and teaching were commanded to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Furthermore they assembled on the first day of the week. Furthermore the early church under apostolic authority was told explicitly regarding the specific elements comprising their corporate worship. See the epistles of Timothy and Titus.



Thanks Bob. Timothy and Titus are very useful.


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## reformed_vanilla (Jun 14, 2012)

Andres said:


> reformed_vanilla said:
> 
> 
> > g) Your worship is too vertical, and you need to work on your horizontal worship.
> ...



I'm in the same boat. From where I see it, all worship should be "vertical", as worship should only be given to God. Maybe the phrase has some hidden and more theologically sound meaning?


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## Quatchu (Jun 14, 2012)

reformed_vanilla said:


> They subsume Sabbath under the ceremonial law. Apparently the only law which is valid is to love your neighbour as yourself...



This kind of thinking often baffles me. Do they then think murder, theft, adultery are allowed too?


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## Scott1 (Jun 14, 2012)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [34] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ISA 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
> 
> ...



Everything you need biblically to refute the contrary thoughts is in the Westminster summary of the doctrine of Scripture of this matter, including the Scripture proofs.

You will notice they do draw from Exodus, as well as other parts of God's word.

Ask them what is the source of their opinion?


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## Scott1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Comments below.



reformed_vanilla said:


> a) Christians have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.
> 
> 1) Jesus did challenge man-made (Pharisee) additions to ceremonial law
> 2) Jesus did challenge some misinterpretations of ceremonial law (e.g. David and the "shewbread")
> ...


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## Scott1 (Jun 14, 2012)

When we think of "legalism," often the Pharisees are thought of.

"Legalism" is generally one of three (unbiblical) things:

1) adding man-made rules to bind men's consciences
2) implying that a man is justified in God's sight by his (man's) "righteous" behavior
3) applying ceremonial law after Christ's perfect sacrifice fulfilled its purpose


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Jun 14, 2012)

If the 4th commandment isn't valid, then how come the others remain? Also, if the Sabbath was about to be abolished why did Jesus declare himself Lord of the Sabbath? If the Sabbath is no longer binding, what are we to make of the writer to the Hebrews using the imagery of the Sabbath? The point of Hebrews 4 is not to prove the Sabbath, but if there was no Sabbath the illustration would be meaningless to the hearers.
Regarding worship: God is the one we are worshipping. It is not about us. We are the audience in worship and God invites us into his presence. He is in control and in charge of divine worship. (Acts 2:42, Isa 6)
Your friends assertions have no biblical warrant. Jesus fulfills the law but nowhere does he abolish it. We need the law to drive us to the gospel. (Rom 7) All the Scriptures declare Jesus. (Luke 24:27)
I would encourage your friends to go back to the Scriptures. Before people start removing the fence posts, it is always necessary to ask why they were there in the first place.


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## TylerRay (Jun 14, 2012)

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" Matt 24: 20.

Since Jesus was referring the fall of Jerusalem at 70 AD (after the Old Covenant was superseded), what day is Christ referring to as the "sabbath day?"

None other that the Lord's Day: the Christian sabbath.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 14, 2012)

Here are my "short-answer" attempts:


reformed_vanilla said:


> a) Christians have no obligation to keep the Sabbath.


This one needs more than a soundbite, both for getting at _what the questioner means_ (or thinks he means), as well as formulating the proper response. It's true we don't keep an OT Sabbath, but what about a NT observance? see Mt.12:8. Is a Sabbath-rest a Sinai ordinance, or is it a part of the Creator's order? see Gen.2. The 10C make moral demands; the 4th Commandment first states the moral reality, "Remember the Sabbath day," and then specifies to the Israelites that for them "the seventh day" (of the week) is 
to be their Lord's Sabbath.

Israel was to remember their Lord on his designated Sabbath for his two great works: Creation (Ex.20) and Redemption (Dt.5). Ask your friends if they think these are anything properly and basically moral, or what they think may have changed?!



reformed_vanilla said:


> b) A church is free to have a Saturday or Wednesday evening service instead of a Sunday service.


I'm glad this issue came next, because it flows from the previous. For those of us who believe firmly in the RPW, we must deny this assertion. We are no more free than saints of any age to set up our own day of worship. Here's the argument: God sets the parameters of his own worship; Jesus is God; upon his resurrection, Jesus began specially meeting with his gathered disciples on the first day of the week. So reports the Scriptures; search them, and other than Ascension Day every time the day of his meeting and appearances to them is recorded it is the first day. He seems to be setting a pattern. He even revisits them after his Ascension on... that's right, Pentecost Sunday--he meets them "in the Spirit." And John is "in the Spirit, on the Lord's Day," Rev.1. What special Day did Jesus ever assert ownership of?



reformed_vanilla said:


> c) Scriptural proofs on my copy of the WCF are invalid as "all those references are from Exodus which is the OLD covenant which we have been set free from!!!!"


This is really sad, because it is such a simplistic assertion; and it shows how differently your friends read the Bible. They don't seem to have much interest in what God is saying to them through the OT, which is about 3/5 of his whole revelation. But even if they only accept God's moral will _so long as it is repeated by Christ or an apostle,_ one should be able to reason from Jesus prolonged treatment of Sabbath questions, and from Heb.4 (that states there "remains" a Sabbath rest for the people of God) and Heb.12 (that teaches that we go to heaven when we worship, and have a foretaste of glory), that the 4C is "repeated" in the NT.



reformed_vanilla said:


> d) Sunday worship was abolished by Jesus.


The statement as worded makes little sense. Instead of "Sunday" do they mean "Seventh Day" or "Sabbath"? Ask them to prove this to your understanding from Scripture. I don't think it can be done by an appeal to any single Scripture, in which case they themselves are "reasoning" to their present position (rather than prooftexting), and can't complain if your "reasoned" argument is stronger. Even their possible appeal to Paul, Col.2:16, must be reasoned to and from in connection with other passages in order to establish it, or undermine the contrary position.



reformed_vanilla said:


> e) You need more Bible verses to prove that we should worship in the way the Bible commands us to.


As someone else stated above, "How many?" What's the minimum? How big a collection of passages make a "strong enough" argument? Wouldn't one properly understood text of divine revelation be sufficient?



reformed_vanilla said:


> f) Clapping in church is completely fine.


What does this have to do with questions of Sabbath observance? Is this a question about propriety or decorum? Without getting into this sort of discussion (avoid if possible), just ask if they think Jesus, from childhood, worshiped in his synagogue in anything other than perfect worship behavior, and then pattern themselves after him.



reformed_vanilla said:


> g) Your worship is too vertical, and you need to work on your horizontal worship.


This is a statement from someone who doesn't want to listen, who wants to be doing the talking and persuading. Whatever "horizontal worship" means, it doesn't sound like God-focused, receptive and responsive worship.


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## reformed_vanilla (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks so much to everyone who has responded. This has been really helpful.


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