# Reciting Creeds and the RPW



## Pilgrim (Nov 29, 2007)

I thought while we were taking up questions related to common worship practices in churches that hold to the RPW I thought I'd ask about reciting creeds as well, like the Apostle's and Nicene creeds.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 29, 2007)

Chris -- There is no command in Scripture for the congregation to recite creeds in worship; ergo, the RPW prohibits such. Many for whom I hold high regard would disagree, as seen in the following threads, but even the WCF, my own favorite creed, quite clearly specifies the elements of worship required by Scripture and creed recitation is not included, and the same Directory penned by those worthy divines specifically ruled out reciting creeds in public worship. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/apostles-creed-1433/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/rpw-reading-confessions-creeds-8358/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/reciting-apostle-s-creed-during-lord-s-supper-24163/


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 29, 2007)

The Reformers did include the use of Creeds in worship. I don't recall their exact justification at the moment. But it was an ancient practice going back to the patristic period and precedes the innovations of the papacy.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 29, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> The Reformers did include the use of Creeds in worship. I don't recall their exact justification at the moment. But it was an ancient practice going back to the patristic period and precedes the innovations of the papacy.



Generally true; and a good resource on the subject is Hughes Oliphant Old's _The Patristic Roots of Reformed Worship_. However, the Second Reformation, beginning with Thomas Cartwright, William Perkins and other English Presbyterians, applied the RPW more strictly and Biblically, in my opinion, leading to the exclusion of this ancient but unwarranted practice.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 29, 2007)

Andrew, if you want a fun Puritan-esque read, have a look at Cyprian's Unity of the Church. I think you would enjoy it if you haven't read it already. There he defends their 3rd century worship as handed down from the apostle's and notes that no innovations were allowed, only heretics had innovations. He then quotes in his defence all the same verses we use for the RPW, especially from the OT. He would probably call it the APW, apostolic principle of worship. I just point out the treatise because it shows how much closer the Patristics and Reformers/Puritans were in their approach to worship liturgy. Cyprian at least didn't believe in adding any elements. 


And yet they had Creeds.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks for the tip, Patrick.  I will definitely check it out. Can you perchance point out which reference you had in mind? 

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

BTW, I agree with this wise comment on the subject.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 29, 2007)

Here's one quote that I had in mind. 
ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix | Christian Classics Ethereal Library


> 17. Yet let not the excessive and headlong faithlessness of many move or disturb us, but rather strengthen our faith in the truthfulness which has foretold the matter. As some have become such, because these things were predicted beforehand, so let other brethren beware of matters of a like kind, because these also were predicted beforehand, even as the Lord instructs us, and says, “But take ye heed: behold, I have told you all things.” Avoid, I beseech you, brethren, men of this kind, and drive away from your side and from your ears, as if it were the contagion of death, their mischievous conversation; as it is written, “Hedge thine ears about with thorns, and refuse to hear a wicked tongue.” And again, “Evil communications corrupt good manners.” The Lord teaches and warns us to depart from such. He saith, “They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, they shall both fall into the ditch.” Such a one is to be turned away from and avoided, whosoever he may be, that is separated from the Church. Such a one is perverted and sins, and is condemned of his own self. Does he think that he has Christ, who acts in opposition to Christ’s priests, who separates himself from the company of His clergy and people? He bears arms against the Church, he contends against God’s appointment. An enemy of the altar, a rebel against Christ’s sacrifice, for the faith faithless, for religion profane, a disobedient servant, an impious son, a hostile brother, despising the bishops, and forsaking God’s priests, he dares to set up another altar, to make another prayer with unauthorized words, to profane the truth of the Lord’s offering by false sacrifices, and not to know that he who strives against the appointment of God, is punished on account of the daring of his temerity by divine visitation.
> 
> 18. Thus Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, who endeavoured to claim to themselves the power of sacrificing in opposition to Moses and Aaron the priest, underwent immediate punishment for their attempts. The earth, breaking its fastenings, gaped open into a deep gulf, and the cleft of the receding ground swallowed up the men standing and living. Nor did the anger of the indignant God strike only those who had been the movers (of the sedition); but two hundred and fifty sharers and associates of that madness besides, who had been mingled with them in that boldness, the fire that went out from the Lord consumed with a hasty revenge; doubtless to admonish and show that whatever those wicked men had endeavoured, in order by human will to overthrow God’s appointment, had been done in opposition to God. Thus also Uzziah the king,—when he bare the censer and violently claimed to himself to sacrifice against God’s law, and when Azariah the priest withstood him, would not be obedient and yield,—was confounded by the divine indignation, and was polluted upon his forehead by the spot of leprosy: he was marked by an offended Lord in that part of his body where they are signed who deserve well of the Lord. And the sons of Aaron, who placed strange fire upon the altar, which the Lord had not commanded, were at once extinguished in the presence of an avenging Lord.
> 
> 19. These, doubtless, they imitate and follow, who, despising God’s tradition, seek after strange doctrines, and bring in teachings of human appointment, whom the Lord rebukes and reproves in His Gospel, saying, “Ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 29, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> BTW, I agree with this wise comment on the subject.





I've backed off from that view a little. I like Calvin's approach a little better, and I don't think he thought himself violating the RPW. But I'm still willing to learn. I may revert back to my former position again some day.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks for that reference, Patrick! 



Puritan Sailor said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I agree with this wise comment on the subject.
> ...



Ok. Hmm. Of course, I too hold Calvin the highest regard, but humbly and respectfully, I don't think his practice was entirely consistent with the principle that he himself articulated in a couple of areas. And, in my own experience, speaking generally, right here on the PB, I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who adheres to the RPW who thinks their practice violates the RPW, no matter how divergent their practice may be from that outlined in the WCF/DPW. Ah, well. May the Lord grant us all humble spirits to walk, united, according to the light given to us, the revealed word of God. They also say, For what it's worth, nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition either!


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 29, 2007)

Well, I think it's important to remember, that Calvin didn't blindly retain things in his liturgy. He actually thought it out and gave Scriptural justification for each part of his liturgy. Unfortunately, you have to know Latin or French to read it! It hasn't been translated to English yet. I can't think of the name of the document right now.....  Let me get back to you on it. I got the filtered version through Dr. Thomas at RTS.


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## yeutter (Nov 30, 2007)

The Athanasian Creed was historically recited [chanted] in unison on 7 times a year during the office of Morning Prayer. This also seems to have been the practice in some of the German State Evangelical Churches. I have never heard it recited in a Dutch Reformed Church. Do any of our 3 Form of Unity brothers use the Athanasian liturgically?


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## Poimen (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes, I have used it in our services. We regularly recite the Apostles', Nicene and (sometimes) the Athanasian Creed(s). We also recite portions of the Belgic and Heidelberg.


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