# Romans 8:28-30



## MarquezsDg (Apr 4, 2011)

*28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *

Hoping you guys can help me out here. In reading this passage doesnt this make an argument against Double Predestination? It appears that not everyone is predestined because those that are "foreknown" are "predestined" "called" "justified" and "glorfied"

Im trying to get a better grasp of a reform view and trying to reconcile this. Couldnt this show that God only predestines His elect and simply leaves unbelievers in their current state and does not show His mercy on them? From my limited knowledge Double Predestionation just always made sense but reading this passage made me wonder, if only believers are predestined and unbelievers are just left in thier state and recieve justice instead of mercy. Thanks


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## torstar (Apr 4, 2011)

That is a good rep of one side of it.

At the same time I understand how one can take a few mental steps and be unable to avoid 2x predestination.

God choosing to leave people in their state is still God being sovereign.

The miracle is we all deserve wrath and His mercy acts on some to save them. To His praise. I don't know why.

It's not all cut and dried over here on our side. I personally don't see how taking too much glee in 2x predestination can possibly be used wisely in one's life, but that's just me...

Always saw the parable of the sower applicable to the rest of one's life, not just a month or two. And many elect may show up at the last hour of the working day and get the same wage, some at the last second.


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## MW (Apr 4, 2011)

MarquezsDg said:


> Im trying to get a better grasp of a reform view and trying to reconcile this. Couldnt this show that God only predestines His elect and simply leaves unbelievers in their current state and does not show His mercy on them? From my limited knowledge Double Predestionation just always made sense but reading this passage made me wonder, if only believers are predestined and unbelievers are just left in thier state and recieve justice instead of mercy.


 
This is true with regard to the personal and positive nuances of the word "predestination" within the scheme of salvation. Double predestination, however, reflects broader theological categories, which considers God's foreordination of all events, including the fall of man and his subjection to a state of misery. These broader categories are manifested in the train of thought which runs through the book of Romans, establishing such truths as (1.) that God gave sinful man over to a reprobate mind, (2.) that there is none that seek after God, (3.) that God justifies only those who believe in Jesus, (4.) that those who believe in Christ shall certainly and finally be saved (just as Adam's disobedience was appointed to result in the certain condemnation of the race), and (5.) that this plan of salvation included the subjection of the creature to vanity and cannot be thwarted by the creature in any way. This is subsequently followed by the problem of Israel in chapter 9-11, which would appear to cast doubt on God's purpose to save. It is resolved that God's electing purpose is connected to a broader purpose which includes the rejection of those who are not "Israel." The discussion relative to the "mass" and the right of the potter over the clay establishes that the divine purpose involves a "double destination" of mankind to either honour or to dishonour.

Other passages of Scripture concur in establishing the "double destination" of mankind in the purpose of God. In Ephesians, 1:11, predestination is connected to the broader concept of the purpose and counsel of God's will which governs "all things." In 1 Peter 2, belonging to the chosen generation is viewed in direct contrast to those who are appointed to stumble at the word. In 2 Peter 2 and Jude, "true" and "false" teachers/professors are discussed in the light of God's ultimate purpose to save and to punish.


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## torstar (Apr 4, 2011)

So what do you do with this knowlege, Armourbearer?

I shudder at the people in my life who gloat over it and have zero love in their heart for anyone.


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## MW (Apr 4, 2011)

torstar said:


> So what do you do with this knowlege, Armourbearer?
> 
> I shudder at the people in my life who gloat over it and have zero love in their heart for anyone.


 
Romans 10:1, "my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." Verse 11, "For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Verse 21, "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." The secret things belong to the Lord; the things revealed to us and to our children. God has His electing purpose; the church has her commission to preach the Word and call all men to believe.


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## torstar (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you. Just keep pressing on.


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## MarquezsDg (Apr 5, 2011)

armourbearer said:


> Other passages of Scripture concur in establishing the "double destination" of mankind in the purpose of God. In Ephesians, 1:11, predestination is connected to the broader concept of the purpose and counsel of God's will which governs "all things." In 1 Peter 2, belonging to the chosen generation is viewed in direct contrast to those who are appointed to stumble at the word. In 2 Peter 2 and Jude, "true" and "false" teachers/professors are discussed in the light of God's ultimate purpose to save and to punish.



Thanks! That was going to be on my original thread. I was going to ask if there was anywhere in scripture where it shows that predes. was also mentioned regarding unbelievers. I will look into this today. Thanks for the help.


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## torstar (Apr 5, 2011)

Esau, Pharoah, Judas Iscariot.


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## MarquezsDg (Apr 5, 2011)

torstar said:


> Esau, Pharoah, Judas Iscariot



Thanks! Maybe i can use the example of Jacob and Esau. If we read back into Romans 8:28-30 then wasnt Jacob the only one predestined because he was ( predestined, called, justified and glorifed) and Esau was left in his natural (dead) state? Maybe Im reading too much into it but i guess Im just looking for somewhwere in scripture where the word "predestined" is specifically tied to the unbeliever. It appears that it always used in describing what God did for believers. Eph. 1:11 helped me a bit but I need to study it more. Thanks for the feedback guys. 

Thought i had posted this before but i just checked the thread and it wasnt there so if it shows up twice you know why.


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## torstar (Apr 5, 2011)

You have a good concern and I will always try to provide honest answers as I've moved from Baptist to Reformed Baptist to a NAPARC view in my life.

I straddle Infra- and supralapsarian views at times, I see no reason to exclude others taking the opposite view. I might raise my eyebrows sometimes...

Off the top of my head are the warnings that it would have been better if Judas I. had not been born? He was chosen.

As for Pharaoh, at times my readings of Exodus have left me almost sorry for him as he had no chance of true repentance, even if he and his officers really wanted to at certain times...

You CAN read too much into it. Our confessions warn against thinking too much about things that are not completely answerable. If it turns into anger against the brethren it might be a sign one has gone a bit too far, but there is nothing wrong with searching the Scripture for concerns put upon you. This is certainly a good one...


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