# To share election or not that is the question



## Christopher88 (Jan 18, 2010)

I have been sharing the truth of TULIP with some folks I have known for a while and serve with on a great mission ministry. They are very much against TULIP because of their whole free will issue. How far should I push the matter of truth? 


Advice would greatly be appreciated. 

Thanks.


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## Herald (Jan 18, 2010)

Chris,

I have a good friend who was resistant to the doctrines of grace for nearly ten years. I tried to come on lack gang-busters early in our discussions, but all that did was drive him into a corner. As the years went by I picked and chose when to discuss certain aspects of the doctrines of grace. It took a major crisis in his family in order to change the status quo. He is now a member of a confessional Baptist church, and has embraced the doctrines of grace. The point? Don't push the matter too far, too quickly. If circumstances lend the discussion to the topic, fine. If not, don't try to pound a square peg into a round hole.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 18, 2010)

Chris, you should put the emphasis on the sovereignty of God. Whereas election scares the arminian, God's sovereignty is where we truly find comfort. If God's sovereignty is the tree and it's trunk, election is one of the limbs of the tree. As they meditate on the sovereignty of God they must eventually answer the question - Is God sovereign in salvation? Don't push a person to deal with all the implications of God's sovereignty too quickly, election goes against our 'natural' urge to earn and work for salvation.

One question you can ask a person who is nervous about losing their 'free will' is to ask them if they pray for an unsaved loved one. Praying for a loved one makes no sense if we believe that it is God who saves people and not just makes it possible for them to be saved. When we pray for a loved one, we are asking God to violate that person's free will - to go against their natural inclinations. If we don't want God to violate a loved one's free will then we should restrict our prayers TO the person and not FOR the person. "Mary, Bill, Chris, SAVE YOURSELF!"

Gently guide the arminian to discover the logical consequence of their concept of sovereignty. If they believe that God is only sovereign in some things then they believe in a weak God as does the Open Theist.

These people are experts on the LOVE of God so ask them what a divine love that is not conditioned by anything or ever changes would look like. Love is to set one's preference upon another but if God's love is unconditional and unchanging, then when did God set his preference on his sheep. Unfortunately, these people believe that God simply loves everyone from the start but can't save them unless they turn to him using the jump start of common grace that the cross gives them. In that case you need to deal with the foundational doctrines of scripture.


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## nasa30 (Jan 18, 2010)

I agree with Bill that pressing the issue tends to drive folks further in to the free will camp. I have had the same experience. I have learned to ask them questions about why they believe what they believe and ask them to show me in scripture how they arrived at that view. Sometimes this is enough to get them searching the word and questioning their own view. I never claim that I have it figured out (I don't know it all!) but some things are visible due to a plain reading of the text.

A question for them is to see if their doctrine makes sense or if it contradicts itself. Are they really Arminian or do they pick and choose. Ex. Do they believe in free will *and* eternal security? If they are mainline Baptist, they most likely do. So in that example, ask them why they believe they can lose their free will. You are free to chose God, but you cannot unchose Him. Loss of FW. 

Just an example of cross doctrines that can open some doors to further discussions.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 18, 2010)

To save lots of time, beat them over the head with Josh while HE preaches at them. This works better in the south then up here.


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## Christopher88 (Jan 18, 2010)

Alright, I finally get to use my baseball bat for once. Its been sitting in my back seat for awhile. 
Thanks for the words brothers.


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## etexas (Jan 18, 2010)

Joshua said:


> And they will like it.


 THere are those who like it! LOL! Serious note, I agree with Bill, I CAME to embrace the other things by starting with Doctrines of Grace....without (to my mind) using Grace as a starting point a thing like total depravity can REALLY spook a person who is "new" to it, I think also Bob is correct in an emphasis of Sovereignty , a foundation in Grace and Sovereignty opens up the other, NOW, lest one say I am "playing up" the more appealing and winsome aspects of Reformed orthodoxy, not really, I feel there is sense in an order of how you present the facets...this is to say...if if one "gets" Grace and "Sov"...then a thing like issue of Total Dep. is logical...and to be frank and use a non-theological term...scary! Just my Pax Est Bonum.


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## TheDow (Jan 18, 2010)

When I first heard about the doctrines of grace, I was resistant as well. What got through to me was that I knew there were very godly, learned men who held to the doctrine of election. Once that seed had been planted, though I resisted it, I found the doctrines of grace everywhere I looked in the Bible. Yes, I began to read the traditional proof texts in a different light contrary to how I WANTED to read them. But the truth of the matter is that I found election and the sovereignty of God everywhere I looked in Scripture. The entire Bible is proof of God's sovereignty, especially in salvation. From the sovereign choosing of His Chosen people all the way down through the ages, sovereignty is a necessity. Their own Bible reading may do the preaching for them once you've explained to them the doctrines of grace, despite their resistance.

As was mentioned before, the sovereignty of God is a more friendly topic than the Calvinist-Arminian debate, though I've found it's most effective when coupled with a reminder of the character of our God. For some, the Doctrines of Election tend to make people immediately assume that we believe God to be some fickle, unstable tyrant. As though our acceptance of the clear teaching of Scripture somehow causes us to forget that God is love. A reminder that the sovereign God who chooses, is immutable, eternal, constant, and ever faithful can often put their contentious heart at ease.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 18, 2010)

I was co-teaching a study on Romans many years ago with another fellow. When I hit the chapter on election, one of the ladies got up and said, "I can never believe in a God who would send my children to Hell even if they wanted to be saved!" She gave me no opportunity to correct her misrepresentation of election. She headed for the door and demanded that her husband follow her.... he did, and that's how I lost my co-teacher.


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## Mushroom (Jan 18, 2010)

Sonny said:


> Alright, I finally get to use my baseball bat for once. Its been sitting in my back seat for awhile.
> Thanks for the words brothers.



No, no, no. Amateurs! Use your Bibles! Hardbound for beating over the head, softbound for stuffing down the throat. No baseball bats, and only Josh if he's holding a hardbound four-version comparitive for good balance - makes for a better swing.

And they will like it.


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## Jack K (Jan 18, 2010)

Arguing points of doctrine seldom works. Living them is more effective. There's a rare combination of humility about oneself and undaunted confidence in Christ that should come from a strong belief in the gospel as expressed in TULIP. The life this produces will be attractive and invite questions/explanation. That's our opportunity.

So the question for us who would share TULIP is: Do we deeply believe it ourselves? Is it more than points of doctrine? Do we live out its ramifications? Has this gospel gripped us? As those answers become a stronger "yes," sharing gets easier. I still have a long way to go.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 18, 2010)

That sounds good Jack but it's hard to live out doctrine. Doctrine is important for it forms the basis of our behavior but our behavior isn't always the best vehicle for teaching doctrine. You can deal in doctrines without being intimidating. Asking questions is the best way to teach doctrine. Yes, teaching doctrine to the lazy minds of American Christianity is like trying to pet a deer but it can be done. Ask questions, lead the person gently into the great teachings of Scripture.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

Sonny said:


> I have been sharing the truth of TULIP with some folks I have known for a while and serve with on a great mission ministry. They are very much against TULIP because of their whole free will issue. How far should I push the matter of truth?
> 
> 
> Advice would greatly be appreciated.
> ...



Since I consider the doctrines of grace (TULIP) to incorporate the gospel message, I would advise you to be willing to push election, as far as you would be willing to push the good news of Jesus Christ.

For when we reveal the truth to men that they are sinners and unable to extricate themselves from their fallen condition, the only answer we have to give them, is that God has sovereignly elected to save a people in Jesus Christ, from their spiritually dead state.

I truly do not see how any of us can proclaim the gospel without proclaiming Unconditional Election.

~However, at the same time, I agree with John Calvin, that we must do so carefully and wisely and circumspectly.~

Here is my little reminder of the essential truths that need to be conveyed, when opportunity comes my way to share the gospel and my faith in Jesus Christ:

T = The Problem (Total Depravity)

U = The Remedy (Unconditional Election)

L = The Means (Limited Atonement)

I = The Application (Irresistible Grace)

P = The Result (Preservation/perseverance of the Saints)


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Jan 18, 2010)

TeachingTulip said:


> T = The Problem (Total Depravity)


Indeed. I usually start here and show from Scripture the problem of the lost who

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

_Get them lost first_ as the old saying goes. 

AMR


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 18, 2010)

Jack K said:


> Arguing points of doctrine seldom works. Living them is more effective. There's a rare combination of humility about oneself and undaunted confidence in Christ that should come from a strong belief in the gospel as expressed in TULIP. The life this produces will be attractive and invite questions/explanation. That's our opportunity.
> 
> So the question for us who would share TULIP is: Do we deeply believe it ourselves? Is it more than points of doctrine? Do we live out its ramifications? Has this gospel gripped us? As those answers become a stronger "yes," sharing gets easier. I still have a long way to go.


 

Jack, the issue I have with this approach is one will begin to think like Frank Asissi and the terrible quote attributed to him: "Preach the Gospel, and if you must, use words"

Sure we live in the world but not of the world, but then I know many JW"s and Mormon's who are very 'moral' in their life. 

I like to come out of the gate with the HC #5

You hate God and your neighbor.

Prayer is also a good way to broach the subject. Since no free will prayer exists, and I am sure every free willy prays for God to do this or that, then ask that person why they pray for a person to be converted if it is out of God;s hands.


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## jwithnell (Jan 18, 2010)

> If God's sovereignty is the tree and it's trunk, election is one of the limbs of the tree.



Love this analogy!

BTW, we reformed folks can get caught up in terminology and that can be off-putting. Just try finding TULIP in the Bible. Be matter of fact about what the scriptures teach. Use scriptures to interpret other scriptures. Engage, when possible in studies where you can systematically work through sections of scripture (even if your co-teacher leaves, urp!). And leave off the catchy acronyms and terminology.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> > If God's sovereignty is the tree and it's trunk, election is one of the limbs of the tree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The truth of divine and unconditional election, is not mere "terminology," but God's revelation that permeates the entirety of Holy Scripture.

No election = no atonement = no gospel.


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## puritan lad (Jan 18, 2010)

I find that many are open to TULIP once they get past the following obstacle. Assure them that no penitent sinner has ever been turned away from Christ because of election. Once that is overcome, the discussion becomes much easier.


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## TeachingTulip (Jan 18, 2010)

puritan lad said:


> I find that many are open to TULIP once they get past the following obstacle. Assure them that no penitent sinner has ever been turned away from Christ because of election. Once that is overcome, the discussion becomes much easier.



Of course, since repentance (penitence) properly taught, acknowledges that such is granted to the elect, by the sovereign grace of God, alone.


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## Jack K (Jan 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > Arguing points of doctrine seldom works. Living them is more effective. There's a rare combination of humility about oneself and undaunted confidence in Christ that should come from a strong belief in the gospel as expressed in TULIP. The life this produces will be attractive and invite questions/explanation. That's our opportunity.
> ...


 


BobVigneault said:


> That sounds good Jack but it's hard to live out doctrine. Doctrine is important for it forms the basis of our behavior but our behavior isn't always the best vehicle for teaching doctrine. You can deal in doctrines without being intimidating. Asking questions is the best way to teach doctrine. Yes, teaching doctrine to the lazy minds of American Christianity is like trying to pet a deer but it can be done. Ask questions, lead the person gently into the great teachings of Scripture.



Good points and thank you. I agree with all of this. I too like words and scriptural agruments. Words are absolutely necessary.

I've just seen too many people who know their doctrine cold and insist it's critical but can't tell you how it makes any difference in their day-to-day lives. I don't particularly have in mind folks on this board. I just think all of us can benefit from having doctrines (especially the doctrines of grace which are central to the gospel) pushed deeper into our souls. Then our words have teeth.

For example, I can defend total depravity and unconditional election. But if I haven't personally believed them deeply enough that I've become a humble person, my argument will seem superficial. 

So yes, we must be able to say, "This doctrine is important because such-and-such shows it is true." But when we're also able to say, "This doctrine means much to me because it's changed my life in such-and-such a way," then we speak with more power.


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## KMK (Jan 19, 2010)

I have found the confession to be helpful.



> LBC 3:7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.



Matters of predestination are to be handled carefully for the purpose of assuring the hearts of, and eliciting glory from, those who sincerely obey the gospel.


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## jwithnell (Jan 19, 2010)

> The truth of divine and unconditional election, is not mere "terminology," but God's revelation that permeates the entirety of Holy Scripture.



But where does the term "unconditional election" exist in scripture? Why not tell people that if God is for us, who can be against us? And, I will never leave you, nor forsake you? Why make terminology a stumbling block?

After attending an Independent Baptist church for a couple years when no other church was available, I can guarantee that a fair amount of reformed terminology is known by others and becomes a lightning rod. However, among believers, there's sympathy to what the Bible actually says (but you can get into a proof-texting milieu which is one of the reasons for my earlier statement about trying to look at sections of scripture).


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## SemperEruditio (Jan 19, 2010)

Like Bawb I've found that addressing God's sovereignty in prayer is a strong point. I told my good friend that I will believe he believes in free-will when I hear him pray as if he does. The two key issues I've found are like I mentioned prayer as well as making it clear that God never turns anyone away. Not sure but that seems to come up so quickly. Had a guy tell me that he could not serve a God who would save an unrepentant murderer but yet the same God would not save a minister who has tended God's sheep for 30 years.  

There are so many misconceptions that I do not get into election as easily as I once did. During the cage stage I would pounce on anyone with the doctrine but now I ease into it. I've scarred my fair share for no good reason than pride and arrogance which translates into a misunderstanding of the doctrine. The way I see it now is that it took God over 20 years to prepare me so I can at least offer my fellow man the same courtesy.

So in response to Sonny's question, focus on prayer. Before I left my last church two of the Sunday School teachers were downstairs. I asked them what were the "things" they made mention to in their prayer. See they said something like _"God we thank you for moving all these things into place so that Sister So&So could get her kids registered and get that job...."_ So I asked them what "things?" They responded with "people." I asked them how is it that God was able to make all that happen if he is unable to move the will of man? There was silence for the longest time. Finally one spoke up and said that God can move the will of man He just chooses not to. In the current situation He chose to move people's will. This opened the door to more questions. So for me prayer has been the key. These men have not changed but they know their theology and philosophy are incongruent. That splinter in their mind is a start.


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