# Reformed church in in the Midwest and West Coast



## Calvinbeza (Sep 29, 2015)

Last week one of my friend who mooved to northern Michigan told me that he can't find solid Reformed churches(OPC,PCA) in his new town. In Upper Peninsula of Michigan there is no PCA or OPC churhes. PCA have the intention of planting there?

I know that in the Atlantic coast, Middle South, East of Mississippi River except New England have great amount of good PCA churches. A lot of conservative PCUS churches joined from this region, and the Reformed Presbyterian Church Evangelical Synod through was a national church most congregations located in Pennsylvania and Maryland.

There is so few PCA in the West and Midwest. In the Midwest Reformed families travel hours to worship in a conservative Reformed church. In Alaska, Wyoming, Montana ther is less than 10 PCA churches combined.

My second question: Why the conservative United Presbyterian Churches in the 80s opted not to join PCA (former Northern Associate Ref Pres Churches?) Some did Grace Presbyterian in Peoria, IL, and Lennox Ebenezer Presbyterian in SD.


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

As to your Michigan question:

1) The area was not settled by Scots. Thus, there was never a strong Presbyterian history in the area. 
2) CRC was a member of NAPARC until they got kicked out. Under the comity agreement, the PCA would not have been concentrating on planting churches in the CRC's back yard during the period of the denomination's greatest growth. 
3) PCA church planting originally strategically targeted suburban areas - with great success, then areas near a large university campus. Current efforts tend to be urban. None of those models would target the UP. Dynamic populations also favor church planting. Again, I'm not sure that the UP would be a fertile field on that basis.

As for the concentration of PCA churches in the Southeast, remember that the PCA originally came out of what had started as the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States of America - certainly not an organization with a large national footprint.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks Edward. I just want to point out that there are entire regions that are withour Reformed presence. The UP Michigan is such region. But I think Marquette and Escabana are worth to try planting PCA churches.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 29, 2015)

In 2014 Mission to North America announced that they want to plant 400 churches in 5 year period. It meand 80 new church in a year. Now I have seen the PCA congregation list on the net There are approximately 20 more churches that was in 2014. PCA neglects church planting?


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In 2014 Mission to North America announced that they want to plant 400 churches in 5 year period. It meand 80 new church in a year. Now I have seen the PCA congregation list on the net There are approximately 20 more churches that was in 2014. PCA neglects church planting?



Planting a suburban church is generally a 3 year project. Ethnic churches, at least the ones with which I am familiar, can take longer. So you can't expect instant results. 

Our congregation had a goal of being involved in 50 domestic church plants by 2020 (Most, but not all, through the Southwest Church Planting Network). We hit that goal a few years ago, and the target has been raised to 100. Our efforts are concentrated in Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Arizona. (Technically, I suppose we should add western Louisiana to that list).


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 29, 2015)

Congratulation. Southwest Church Planting Network seems to work. But what is in the Midwest. 

In Mississippi state there are 0 church plants.MS state is considered as one of the strongholds in the PCA, and the PCA let these churches starving, and dwindling


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In Mississippi state there are 0 church plants.MS state is considered as one of the strongholds in the PCA, and the PCA let these churches starving, and dwindling



Not a whole lot of places to plant churches in Mississippi. And they have a fair number of rural churches in counties which are shrinking. Might be room for one or two up by Memphis. At some point Madison and Rankin might be able to add another. Below I-10, they lost at least half a decade recovering from Katrina. Might be room for one or two down there. If they aren't working on it, they should look over at Monroe for a church or two and a RUF, and perhaps a church in Alexandria. Wilkins pretty well gutted the denomination in Louisiana except for the Florida Parishes and the area south of there. Shreveport - Bossier ought to be able to absorb a couple of more churches, but that's North Texas now.


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## Romans922 (Sep 29, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In 2014 Mission to North America announced that they want to plant 400 churches in 5 year period. It meand 80 new church in a year. Now I have seen the PCA congregation list on the net There are approximately 20 more churches that was in 2014. PCA neglects church planting?




The PCA generally neglects planting churches in rural areas. So if there isn't a major city or suburb, you most likely aren't going to get a PCA church.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 29, 2015)

I do not understand that Shreveport after the dissolution of Louisiana Presbytery become part of North TX Presbyterian. 

The entire Louisiana region could have been one big presbytery with SE Louisiana Presbytery. More effective on church planting. Just a thought. I am not an expert on creating presbyteries.


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I do not understand that Shreveport after the dissolution of Louisiana Presbytery become part of North TX Presbyterian.



Rushton and Delhi further east on I-20 ended up in Mississippi Valley. Shreveport's closer to Dallas than it is to Jackson. Lake Charles pretty much splits the difference between Baton Rouge and Houston, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to be Metro Houston.


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> The PCA generally neglects planting churches in rural areas.



I'm not sure 'neglect' is the right word. Perhaps 'shows stewardship in generally not attempting to plant'.

But as with all discussion, it might help if we make sure we are talking about the same thing. I'd define rural as ag-based economy, slightly declining to declining population, aging population, low population density (The census bureau defines it as under 2500 people).


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## Romans922 (Sep 29, 2015)

Edward said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > The PCA generally neglects planting churches in rural areas.
> ...



Rural not cities of +30k people.


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## Edward (Sep 29, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Rural not cities of +30k people.



It's been a few years - Weatherford, TX 27,000. 

Boerne, TX (2006) - 12,384

Kerrville TX (2013) - 22,663

A small total number compared to the number planted in DFW and Houston, but the plants in those cities are spread across close to 12 million people, or close to half the people in the state.


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## Romans922 (Sep 29, 2015)

Curious, did the Presbytery plant those churches or MNA?


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

> But as with all discussion, it might help if we make sure we are talking about the same thing. I'd define rural as ag-based economy, slightly declining to declining population, aging population, low population density (The census bureau defines it as under 2500 people).



I understand what rural means. I just said that PCA loosing, dissolving churches in Mississippi. There are Towns without PCA presence in Nort Mississippi, like Senatobia, New Albany, Booneville, Holly Springs. In Jackson there should be more than 10 congregation African-American as well Hispanic, without suburbs.

South MS in the Gulf Coast can have more PCA churches. 

Churches must be planted in Mississippi too, because PCA will loose ground in th estate.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

To my friend in UP Michigan, I think Escabana and Marquette could have PCA churches, UP is some kind of an isolated territory without REformed presence, these could be lights of spiritual darkness.


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## Jack K (Sep 30, 2015)

You would think church plants ought to happen in regions where there's no denominational presence already, but in fact that isn't necessarily how it works. Yes, there is some effort on denominational levels to enter such areas, but church planting is not easy and plants tend to thrive best where there is a solid "mother church" that supports the effort and perhaps sends out some of its membership to form the new congregation. It also helps to have a strong, compact presbytery with plentiful resources rather than a spread-out one that struggles just to get everybody to regular meetings. All this means that church plants which are most likely to succeed may also tend to be those located not too far from existing churches.

So in a case like the UP of Michigan, which is not really anywhere near a hub of Presbyterian strength, it can be much harder to get traction than in, let's say, Texas or Georgia.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

> So in a case like the UP of Michigan, which is not really anywhere near a hub of Presbyterian strength, it can be much harder to get traction than in, let's say, Texas or Georgia.



Jack, New Hampshire is a state where Presbyterian churches are very few, the PCA has 7 congregations there.Churches from the South helped to plant these churches. In UP are sholud be done the same.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

Or in Vermont, the PCA has 2 congregations. But 0 in the Upper Peninsula.


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Curious, did the Presbytery plant those churches or MNA?



Well, that's going to require a bit of parsing, isn't it? Technically, any mission church is the work of the Presbytery in which it is located, and is only a work of MNA if it is outside the bounds of any Presbytery. (Utah, for example, used to be out of bounds, but has been absorbed by Northern California, and there was that unfortunate incident when the church in Georgia tried to plant a PCA church in Salt Lake City.) 

So, with church planting in the southwest, you generally have funding flowing either from the individual churches (not all churches in the Presbytery are members of the network, and some members of the network may do work independent of the network) or the network, under the authority of one of the four Presbyteries. Then you have the MNA's Western Church Planting Ministry. 

I used to have a boss who liked to answer 'or' questions with a 'yes'.

Who plants the church? The Presbytery which has authority to set up a mission and particularize a church, or the folks who do the leg work and fund the activity? The answer might well be 'yes'.


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In Jackson there should be more than 10 congregation



Let's look at north Jackson and South Jackson. In north Jackson, Trinity moved north as the area changed, buying a large Methodist facility from a congregation which decided to exit the city limits. They have attempted to plant a multi-racial church at their old location. But the remaining white members were a key to the operation, as there were not enough black Presbyterians in Jackson to support even a single church. In south Jackson, as the area transitioned, the church ended up merging with a suburban church over in Clinton. Earlier, a PCA church in west Jackson relocated their small number of remaining members to a location in North Jackson. At the time, there was an effort toward planting a black church in west Jackson, but that never could be brought to fruition, although it did provide some groundwork for the Trinity/Redeemer deal a generation later. 

Holly Springs is a town of under 8000 on the edge of a national forest. It's about a half hour drive to the nearest PCA church. Senatobia is about the same size, and is also about a half hour from a PCA church. 

Booneville is slightly over 8000, and again is about half an hour to a PCA church. New Albany is, again, slightly over 8000, and is slightly farther - 40 or 45 minutes - to a PCA church. These two would probably orient toward Tupelo, while the first two orient more towards Memphis. 

As I indicated up thread, there probably is room for one or two plants in these south Memphis suburbs, but I haven't looked at the demographics enough to zero in on where they should be - I would think a bit closer in, but Senatobia might be a good target. 

As for below I-10 - it's 10 years post Katrina, and things have probably reached a point where they can look at growing again. If oil prices stay stable.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

Edward How do you know that?

I see in Alabama the PCA has lot of church plants. The situation is different in Alabama and Mississippi?


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## Jack K (Sep 30, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I see in Alabama the PCA has lot of church plants. The situation is different in Alabama and Mississippi?



Just keep in mind the fact that this isn't the sort of thing that gets decided by fiat at the denominational level, as it might if we were Methodists or something. There isn't anyone at PCA headquarters looking at a map of the US and picking one region/state over another, so that we might say they're being unfair. Yes, they are trying to provide aid and a certain amount of direction/encouragement, but the greater push for church plants comes from churches and presbyteries themselves. It isn't forced from on high. That's part of why it isn't all balanced out.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

And why was the Methodists and baptist more effective in planting churches and evangelizing USA. When I lived Europe as a child I believed that the Reformed community in much larger in the USA, when we leared from the Pilgrim forefathers(learned that they were Calvinists). In that part of Europe where I lived we do not heard about Baptists, or Methodists, I did not knew them till mooved here.


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## Calvinbeza (Sep 30, 2015)

Why are so few Reformed in the States?


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Edward How do you know that?



Which part?


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> The situation is different in Alabama and Mississippi?



Simple answer? There is no Briarwood in Mississippi.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 1, 2015)

> Let's look at north Jackson and South Jackson. In north Jackson, Trinity moved north as the area changed, buying a large Methodist facility from a congregation which decided to exit the city limits. They have attempted to plant a multi-racial church at their old location. But the remaining white members were a key to the operation, as there were not enough black Presbyterians in Jackson to support even a single church. In south Jackson, as the area transitioned, the church ended up merging with a suburban church over in Clinton. Earlier, a PCA church in west Jackson relocated their small number of remaining members to a location in North Jackson. At the time, there was an effort toward planting a black church in west Jackson, but that never could be brought to fruition, although it did provide some groundwork for the Trinity/Redeemer deal a generation later.



How do you know this story?


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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In north Jackson, Trinity moved north as the area changed, buying a large Methodist facility from a congregation which decided to exit the city limits. They have attempted to plant a multi-racial church at their old location.



Who states this? You. Where do you get your information?

Some of your facts are off. Trinity is still within the city limits. And it's more east than north. Trinity did not plant a church. The members who stayed planted it with the Presbytery. 



Calvinbeza said:


> In south Jackson, as the area transitioned, the church ended up merging with a suburban church over in Clinton.



This also is incorrect. The church that was in SW Jackson moved to Clinton, there was no merging. This was because of increased crime with a knowledge that another church would be planted there.


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## Edward (Oct 1, 2015)

About North Park? I asked folks at First Presbyterian why there was a 50 or so member church meeting in a converted house in the midst of the triangle formed by First Pres, Trinity (old location) and Pear Orchard. I had missed this story on the actual end of North Park - http://byfaithonline.com/church-dies-lives-on-through-pca-foundation/

About the Mt. Salus / St. Paul merger into Pinehaven? - that was well reported at the time. See also a brief reference to the merger here: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/81114-Church-site-critique . It was common enough knowledge that there wasn't any comment on it on that thread. 

About Trinity/Resurrection? It was well reported at the time - I think I recall several stories in the denominational magazine, but I can't locate the older stories. You might start with Dr. Duncan's blog entry - http://ligonduncan.com/a-milestone-for-redeemer-church-jackson-ms-and-an-important-day-for-the-pca/ or a recent story in the local Gannett paper - http://www.clarionledger.com/story/...churches-embracing-ethnic-diversity/30313465/ My house used to be a few blocks from the current Trinity location. 

I don't know their current policies, but First Presbyterian Jackson used to follow a model of maintaining a size that their facilities would accommodate (noting that in the last 30 years, they built a new fellowship hall/Sunday School building and completely rebuilt the sanctuary). When they grew to a certain point, they'd spin off a local daughter church. Pear Orchard, one of the Rankin County churches (Lakeland?), Highlands. Looks like Madison Heights is a daughter of those daughter churches, and not a direct work of First. http://www.madisonheightschurch.com/learn/how-we-got-started/


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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2015)

Yes and North Park should've merged with Redeemer or Trinity. But they did not. They folded. 




Edward said:


> About the Mt. Salus / St. Paul merger into Pinehaven?



This statement isn't correct. You are looking at that thread from 2013 and assuming much. Mt Salus joined St. Paul. They remained St. Paul for many years. St. Paul moved from S. Jackson to North Clinton. They changed their name to Pinehaven. That whole thing took several several years. Over a decade.

I don't really need to start with any blogs, I was there at the beginning of Redeemer, close to the congregation of Trinity and was a member of the Presbytery. I know the real story, in both the 'blogs' there is a super-positive spin put on everything and FPC looks to be the savior of all. I would not agree with that. It was mostly the work of the members leaving trinity (1/3 of them) to plant this church. Of course the Presbytery oversaw the whole thing. Trinity did not plant that church nor did FPC, but I won't go into the details .


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 1, 2015)

I think we should focus on the West and Midwest.


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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2015)

You should all focus on your local areas and plant good churches.


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## Edward (Oct 1, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Some of your facts are off. Trinity is still within the city limits.



I didn't say it wasn't. I said the Methodist church moved out of the city. "buying a large Methodist facility from a congregation which decided to exit the city limits." But, that statement I did make was incorrect. While CUMC moved north, the new location is south of County Line. So I was incorrect, but you made the wrong correction. 



Romans922 said:


> in both the 'blogs'


 If you lived in Jackson, you ought to know that the 'Clarion-Ledger' isn't a blog. Speaking of blogs, you might like this version a bit more: http://singingchurch.blogspot.com/2013/09/report-from-field-redeemer-pres-jackson.html
Or Trinity's more detailed explanation here: http://www.tpcjackson.org/about/ (about half way down the page).



Romans922 said:


> You should all focus on your local areas and plant good churches.



On that we can agree.


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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2015)

Edward said:


> If you lived in Jackson, you ought to know that the 'Clarion-Ledger' isn't a blog. Speaking of blogs, you might like this version a bit more: http://singingchurch.blogspot.com/20...s-jackson.html
> Or Trinity's more detailed explanation here: http://www.tpcjackson.org/about/ (about half way down the page).



Of course it isn't a blog I was generalizing. I know Trinity's 'explanation'. Being there in the midst of it, I'll hold to my story.


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## Edward (Oct 1, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Being there in the midst of it, I'll hold to my story.


I don't see that much distinction between what Trinity says and what you said. Both are certainly more complete than what I first posted.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 2, 2015)

Thanks


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## Unoriginalname (Oct 2, 2015)

As someone who has never left the East Coast I have no experiential knowledge of how rural or not rural the UP is but I imagine planting one reformed church there is not going to the solve the problem. As others have stated church planting is hard, it takes time, money and resources which is why it tends to be the most successful when done in an area where the local presbytery or classis can share time, money, members and other resources. So it is hard to just go and plant a bunch of churches somewhere there aren't existing churches especially if we are talking about a more rural area. As Jack pointed out there are groups like Methodists that plant based of some sort of central planning but that doesn't mean those plants last. If you take the time to try and plant a church you want it to be one that takes root, and ideally be planting churches nearby it in the future. Any sort of planting work in the UP should probably be carried out by the denomination or denominations who have resources closest to that area.


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## BGF (Oct 3, 2015)

With the influence of large urban churches such as Redeemer New York, and its City To City planting network, I can say, without a doubt, cities will receive a fair amount of attention.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 3, 2015)

> As someone who has never left the East Coast I have no experiential knowledge of how rural or not rural the UP is but I imagine planting one reformed church there is not going to the solve the problem



In the UP there are few bigger towns with more than 25,000 members, the largest are Marquette and Escabana, these are 2 key locationswher churches should be planted first.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 3, 2015)

Ok UP was not settled by scotts, Utah is the least Christian Stated in the USA, but it has 7-8 PCA churches, because other existing PCA churches invested time and money to plant there. In Utah there was no PCA church till early 90s. 

The same should be happen in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan


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## Edward (Oct 3, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Utah is the least Christian Stated in the USA, but it has 7-8 PCA churches



Look at the map. All but two are in the suburban Salt Lake City area - large metro area, dynamic, suburban population. (One is in suburban Layton, which is within commuting distance of SLC, the last is in a resort area, which has what may be an even more dynamic population). There was also a lack of evangelical competition. 

Look, drum up a core group of a dozen or two adults and a couple of hundred thousand for funding, and see how things go.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 3, 2015)

This has discussion has run its course.


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 3, 2015)

I'll just add that the OPC had a church plant in Marquette area (univ. town) 15yrs ago or so. It failed.

So, sometimes you try, spend precious, limited time and $$$, and things don't work out like you hope.

But Christ is building his church; we aren't building his church. Our labors are not in vain in the Lord.



*And I'll add to that note, the PuritainBoard had a Baptist member from the early days, who went to Escanaba area and planted a Macarthur-type church. Been a long time since he posted. Our stunted senses/awareness/time-scale really doesn't capture the scope of whatever it is Christ is doing. We're like little kids along for the ride.


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