# Article about the PCA



## Pergamum (Apr 25, 2009)

Is this a good article, bad article, accurate, inaccurate?

BaylyBlog: Out of our minds, too...: The demographics of the PCA: Follow the money...


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 25, 2009)

I would say that the PCA, like many Reformed denominations, are typically suburban and well to do. However, the PCA also has several branches...one being New City Churches with a mission for the inner city and those of the working classes. They also have a mission branch directed towards Native American outreach from my understanding.


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## Edward (Apr 25, 2009)

I would say bad insofar as it tries to generalize to the denomination as a whole. Probably pretty accurate as to some congregations. Presbyterians have always tended to be skewed toward professionals, small business owners, landowning farmers. But there are poor congregations and congregations that have a socioeconomic (and in a few cases, even racial) mix. A 60 member rural church in the mountains isn't going to look like a 5000 member urban church which isn't going to look like a 400 member suburban church.


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## shackleton (Apr 25, 2009)

Do you think it is more educated professional are attracted to the PCA due the amount of studying it takes just to get in the door, whereas other denominations appeal to more of a "common man?"


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## Reepicheep (Apr 25, 2009)

The PCA started in a suburb of Birmingham, Alabama and when it became a denomination the majority of her churches were in similar locations. The PCA is only 36 years old, but in that time we've branched out across the country by way of existing churches joining us or through church planting. It should be no surprise the churches joining us would find something that resonates, so the majority have been suburban or rural too. The church planting effort of the PCA has recognized this narrow growth pheonomenon and so has worked hard, especially the past 15 years, to plant churches in or near inner city areas. 

The demographics of a church reflects it's location. We need faithful churches in all locations, but it takes time. Thankfully, God has placed many faithful churches across the demographic spectrum, PCA or others. 

This kind of article and discussion is always interesting, but not terribly profound or overly helpful. We are where we are. We need to be faithful in those locations.


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## AndyS (Apr 27, 2009)

So is the article just criticizing Tim Keller personally, or the PCA in general?

Didn't seem like a very edifying or helpful read. Seems more like someone has an axe to grind.


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## chbrooking (Apr 27, 2009)

I found the article singularly unhelpful. The PCA is painted with a broad brush, yet only one of its churches, by anyone's reckoning not a typical one, is assessed. 

It does lead to a question, though. Does a church have to have a representative sample of every societal subset? If so, what is a church in rural Idaho or Montana to do? . . . bus 'em in? The location of the church and the preaching style of the pastor have significant influence on the demographics of the congregation. Is that a problem?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Apr 27, 2009)

Reepicheep said:


> The PCA started in a suburb of Birmingham, Alabama and when it became a denomination the majority of her churches were in similar locations. The PCA is only 36 years old, but in that time we've branched out across the country by way of existing churches joining us or through church planting. It should be no surprise the churches joining us would find something that resonates, so the majority have been suburban or rural too. The church planting effort of the PCA has recognized this narrow growth pheonomenon and so has worked hard, especially the past 15 years, to plant churches in or near inner city areas.
> 
> The demographics of a church reflects it's location. We need faithful churches in all locations, but it takes time. Thankfully, God has placed many faithful churches across the demographic spectrum, PCA or others.
> 
> This kind of article and discussion is always interesting, but not terribly profound or overly helpful. *We are where we are. We need to be faithful in those locations*.



I couldn't agree more, Pastor Felich. The flagship church of the PCA, Briarwood Presbyterian, is a massive complex situated on a prominent hill in the middle of a very affluent neighborhood - it resembles a Medieval cathedral rising out of a sprawl of Italian villas. That's not a criticism, just an indication of the denomination's roots. 

My current church is ensconced at locations in the Upper East and Upper West sides of New York - by far the most affluent parts of the city. Coral Ridge Presbyterian, once the denomination's largest, is in a very wealthy suburb north of Miami. 

I think the article is correct in the sense that the denomination is primarily (but not entirely) composed of middle class to wealthy people. So long as we're faithful to the Gospel and are good stewards of what God has given us, there is no need to be ashamed of this. All of those churches mentioned give millions each to worldwide missions and church planting, as well as to mercy ministries. The wealthy and educated need the Gospel just as much as the poor and ignorant. So I agree that we are who/where we are - we should be focused on being faithful where God has placed us.


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## lynnie (Apr 27, 2009)

A disgusting and untrue article. I don't know too much about TK and NYC, but I know something about the late Jack Miller (suburban Philly, New Life Churches) who was Tim Kellers' hero/mentor. (TK studied under JM at WTS and there was talk of TK being his successor at the seminary, but he went into pastoring) And Jack went after the bottom rung of society with all his heart.

This Bayly blog post is essentially calling Keller a hireling, somebody who is into kingdom service for the money. It is revolting. 

Jealousy? Or just plain petty? or outright slander and strife? Maybe the GA should deal with this **** as well as the subject of deacons .


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## AndyS (Apr 27, 2009)

It almost sounds like it's a sin (a white upper middle class sin at that) to publish a book or something.

Hmm, that's a LOT of Christian writers who have some 'splaining to do, huh? 

-----Added 4/27/2009 at 06:53:26 EST-----



lynnie said:


> Jealousy? Or just plain petty? or outright slander and strife? Maybe the GA should deal with this **** as well as the subject of deacons .



I just want to know what **** is.


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## calgal (Apr 27, 2009)

This attitude is worse by far than any lady deacon: at least she would be serving God with all her heart, not sitting and being sinfully envious. This is an issue that GA may need to take up. Or Presbytery...


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> The wealthy and educated need the Gospel just as much as the poor and ignorant. So I agree that we are who/where we are - we should be focused on being faithful where God has placed us.


Does that include the wealthy & ignorant and the poor & educated also?


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## ww (Apr 27, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Is this a good article, bad article, accurate, inaccurate?
> 
> BaylyBlog: Out of our minds, too...: The demographics of the PCA: Follow the money...



It is an opinion and everybody has one. I believe that men are gifted differently and able to reach different segments of the population based on those gifts. I know PCA churches whose ministry evolves around the "best practices" of Tim Keller, they attend Tim Keller networking events, quote him often, etc. Is that neccessarily wrong? NO as long as one realizes they are not Tim Keller.

As far as the PCA it is what it is and shouldn't be ashamed of its membership however there is a push to find men of different ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds to reach people in their locales with the Truth of the Reformed Faith and that is a step in the right direction.


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## lynnie (Apr 27, 2009)

andy...rhymes with frap.

I was suprised the editing is so strict


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## ColdSilverMoon (Apr 27, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> > The wealthy and educated need the Gospel just as much as the poor and ignorant. So I agree that we are who/where we are - we should be focused on being faithful where God has placed us.
> ...





Absolutely!


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## fredtgreco (Apr 27, 2009)

I love how everyone rejoices in taking cheap shots in this thread.

Obviously none of you have been to one of the latte-slipping goatee-wearing (or better yet "soul patch"-wearing  ), hip, urban, white church plants. You know, the ones that look absolutely identical in SF, NYC, Baltimore, Miami, Chicago, Denver, _et al._?

I guess none of you have sat with a pastor of a small Hispanic church who can't get any of our "leader mission churches" to return his calls, or help financially with one of our very few fully-Hispanic churches, have you? Do you know who helps them? Who shares their burdens? The tiny "TR" churches around them. That is a FACT, not a conjecture.

Before you all get up in arms, it would behoove you to actually talk to some PCA African-American pastors, some Hispanic PCA churchmen, and see the reality of the PCA. Better yet, just pick up a copy of _By Faith_, any one of the last 5-6 issues. You won't see anything on poverty ministry, or the blue collar churches - but you *will* see at least one article each issue on how some white, suburban (or tragically hip church plant) is "ministering" to the community through an art gallery, or a gay outreach ensemble, or the like.

I don't expect the PCA to be the rainbow coalition - Tony's point is well taken there - but I am tired of the lip service paid to "diversity" by PCA churches, with no attempt to back up their talk.


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## Theoretical (Apr 27, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> I love how everyone rejoices in taking cheap shots in this thread.
> 
> Obviously none of you have been to one of the latte-slipping goatee-wearing (or better yet "soul patch"-wearing  ), hip, urban, white church plants. You know, the ones that look absolutely identical in SF, NYC, Baltimore, Miami, Chicago, Denver, _et al._?
> 
> ...


For my locale, all you have to do is look at where the PCA is planting churches, and this is pretty obvious. In fact, instead of planting reformed churches in unrepresented communities, one church I know just pairs up with ministries of various stripes from other, non-reformed denominations to reach those areas.


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## Edward (Apr 27, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Obviously none of you have been to one of the latte-slipping goatee-wearing (or better yet "soul patch"-wearing  ), hip, urban, white church plants. You know, the ones that look absolutely identical in SF, NYC, Baltimore, Miami, Chicago, Denver, _et al._?



I'm thinking about visiting one in a few weeks. Want me to post a review? (of course, I welcome any guidance that the mods may give on that course of action). 



> Before you all get up in arms, it would behoove you to actually talk to some PCA African-American pastors



I have - they don't all look alike, they don't all sound alike. 



> I don't expect the PCA to be the rainbow coalition - Tony's point is well taken there - but I am tired of the lip service paid to "diversity" by PCA churches, with no attempt to back up their talk.



For the record, I'm opposed to diversity for diversity's sake as well.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> I love how everyone rejoices in taking cheap shots in this thread.
> 
> Obviously none of you have been to one of the latte-slipping goatee-wearing (or better yet "soul patch"-wearing  ), hip, urban, white church plants. You know, the ones that look absolutely identical in SF, NYC, Baltimore, Miami, Chicago, Denver, _et al._?
> 
> ...



One reason why I really appreciate the New City outreach here. I'm sorry to hear that it's true there are refusals to return phone calls, as I was trying to give a benefit of the doubt in my post. Many prayers in this area.


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## ww (Apr 27, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> I love how everyone rejoices in taking cheap shots in this thread.
> 
> Obviously none of you have been to one of the latte-slipping goatee-wearing (or better yet "soul patch"-wearing  ), hip, urban, white church plants. You know, the ones that look absolutely identical in SF, NYC, Baltimore, Miami, Chicago, Denver, _et al._?
> 
> ...



Well then I take back my charitable response based on Fred's assessment as he would know much better than I. However my charity is based on the fact that I don't want to disparage the Pastor or the Church from which I am still a member as I seek to transfer my membership to the OPC congregation I currently attend. I also know of a PCA Church to the North which fits the description by Fred to a T. We have a gentleman and his wife who travel about an hour to our OPC church as they don't see the church as a viable option for he and his wife.


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## Craig (Apr 27, 2009)

Like nearly every other blog post from Tim Bayly...a GREAT article.

For all of you getting huffy, consider what Fred brought up and peruse other entries on the Bayly Blog. This isn't conjecture on Tim's part, and it isn't nit-picking jealousy.


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## lynnie (Apr 27, 2009)

You know whats ironic?

In my presbytery, which is the same one Tim Keller is in, Redeemer gets a certain amount of criticism from a few sources because they dump so much money into church planting and some of the churches are not TTR. Like they gave a lump of money to a- Russian, I think it was- church to reach NYC immigrants in their native language, and the pastor held to something not purely Calvinistic enough, I forget what, but there was some negative response. 

Redeemer is giving money to these church plants all over the city to try and reach the lost, and getting criticized by members in its own Presbytery that some of the plants are not up to PCA standards, and then this Bayly blog starts posting that Keller is just following the wealthy white money trail.

So if they stop giving money to these other little churches the TTRs will be happy, and when they do they get slandered in the blogs that they are following the money trail..... I bet those little churches full of immigrants are lining pockets at Redeemer for sure, uh huh
*
Bayly says Keller's heart and treasure is money, not God. He is essentially calling Keller a hireling. If he does not repent of his slander he should be defrocked. *


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## Craig (Apr 27, 2009)

Lynnie,

did you read the article? It is astounding that on this Reformed board hardly anybody is getting it. Tim is NOT castigating wealthy PCA patrons for simply not giving out money, or funding ministry....or even for being wealthy.

The PCA has a tendency of being appealing to wealth and affluence for a variety of reasons, and Tim is hammering on *one* of those reasons. Did you see it?



lynnie said:


> *Bayly says Keller's heart and treasure is money, not God. He is essentially calling Keller a hireling. If he does not repent of his slander he should be defrocked. *



Tim Bayly is part of what's right within the PCA...


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## fredtgreco (Apr 27, 2009)

What's ironic is that people think appropriate church planting is to find people who are doing work you don't (or won't) do and to have them be the focus of your support, instead of making the effort to plant *Presbyterian* and *Reformed* (in the generic Westminster sense of the word) churches.

Why should I be happy if no PCA minister will actually go out and minister to Russians, and instead we are satisfied with sending money to Baptists, quasi-Arminians, Pentecostals and the like? That is the heart of the critique of the article!

This is by no means a focus on Redeemer. It is far too indicative of the PCA (including some of its mission works. It must be reformed (as in corrected, not as in Westminster).

We need to invest in our own bright African-American minsters. We need to stop thinking that Mexican pastors can church plant amongst Cubans, because "after all, they are all 'Latinos'." We need to stop requiring missionaries to conform to Pentecostals on the mission field. We need to start taking the money that would be spent on our 5th, 6th, or 10th pastor and consider using it to raise up a PCA, community-led Latino congregation in some of our major cities. We need to stop worrying about if the crows that reads the New Yorker comes to our church, and direct our efforts to plumbers, car mechanics, and others. 

The PCA needs to be much broader in our geographic and ethnic outreach, and keep a narrow (Biblical) focus on our theological outreach.


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## py3ak (Apr 27, 2009)

[Moderator]
*Lynnie, your remarks about Tim Bayly are way over the line. I wonder if we are even reading the same article. 

But you are doing to Mr. Bayly what you accuse him of doing to Tim Keller, and what this article, at any rate, most certainly does not do.

Tim Bayly is not the only one to notice that a lot of Reformed Christians are a subset of the chatterati - Carl Trueman has made the same point. But whether you agree with that point or not has little bearing on the acceptable norms of speech: norms which your post egregiously violates.

Do not call for him to be defrocked again; do not attribute motives to him; if you can't avoid misreading him, do not comment about his remarks.*
[/Moderator]


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## chbrooking (Apr 27, 2009)

I got it Craig. I found it full of venom, not wisdom. Not even good reasoning.


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## Reformed Thomist (Apr 27, 2009)

Is there something inherent in the polity of presbyterianism that leads to theological and liturgical liberalism? 

I swear, one could set up a presbyterian church called _The Old-School, Fundamentalist, Anti-Liberal, Death-to-Barthians Presbyterian Church of the Fire-Breathing Lord God_, and within 50 years of its founding turtle-neck'd congregants of its urban church plants will be sipping espresso as they listen to the deaconess strum the guitar during Sunday service.


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## py3ak (Apr 27, 2009)

[Moderator]
*Nathan, that's a pretty off-topic question. If you are seriously interested, why don't you start another thread?*
[/Moderator]


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## Craig (Apr 27, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> I got it Craig. I found it full of venom, not wisdom. Not even good reasoning.



I don't think you got it.


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## Montanablue (Apr 27, 2009)

Although I certainly agree that the PCA may need to broaden the demographics of its congregations, I find that blog post extraordinarily unhelpful. It comes off as venomous and bitter. I'm actually shocked that a pastor would use such a tone. I don't doubt that he has a very valid point - one that I would probably agree with - but I'm put off by his lack of charity. 



> We are where we are. We need to be faithful in those locations.



I think this is a great point. Educated professionals need the gospel just as much as anyone else. Of course, we must not neglect others in favor of the elites, but we shouldn't simply reject the elites either. 



> Better yet, just pick up a copy of By Faith, any one of the last 5-6 issues. You won't see anything on poverty ministry, or the blue collar churches - but you will see at least one article each issue on how some white, suburban (or tragically hip church plant) is "ministering" to the community through an art gallery, or a gay outreach ensemble, or the like.



Are there really PCAs ministering through "gay outreach ensembles?"


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## Theoretical (Apr 27, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Although I certainly agree that the PCA may need to broaden the demographics of its congregations, I find that blog post extraordinarily unhelpful. It comes off as venomous and bitter. I'm actually shocked that a pastor would use such a tone. I don't doubt that he has a very valid point - one that I would probably agree with - but I'm put off by his lack of charity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about the latter, but I know of a very prominent one that just did an art show.


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## Montanablue (Apr 27, 2009)

I actually did visit a PCA last year that had an art exhibit in their narthex. The display was photos of the city taken by a member. I actually appreciated the exhibit - the photos were beautiful and I think its good for the church to recognize beauty in God's creation. 

Having said that, I'm not sure what I think of a church having an art exhibit as an "outreach" or as some sort of "mission," especially if they spent a significant amount of money on it. I'd rather see that money go into the mission field or to help a sister church with a less affluent congregation.


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## Edward (Apr 27, 2009)

Theoretical said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Are there really PCAs ministering through "gay outreach ensembles?"
> ...



Did you go?


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## py3ak (Apr 27, 2009)

This thread has been closed for a cooling-off period.

Something to consider: _critique from within_ tends to make some very angry. Why? Sometimes, it is because the critique _hit home_. Sometimes, it is because _any_ critique is seen as disloyalty or betrayal. Neither of those are really good reasons.

The Bayly's are not above criticism, and I have some criticisms of my own: but those who would take them up on their tone need to reckon with the fact that misperceptions occur. The fact that it sounded hostile to you does not mean that it either is or was intended to be hostile. And consider this: in the article linked above, Tim Bayly may have written some strong things; but the article reveals that at least he looked in the mirror when he did so. Some of you have now written equally strong things against him: have you also looked in the mirror?


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