# -



## jw (Sep 23, 2007)

-


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 23, 2007)

There is more stock in going with a school that follows the Bible and the WCF (or under the tutalage of a godly pastor) than there is in accredidation of a School that has a name (Harvard, Yale, Etc.).


----------



## Ivan (Sep 23, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> There is more stock in going with a school that follows the Bible and the WCF (or under the tutalage of a godly pastor) than there is in accredidation of a School that has a name (Harvard, Yale, Etc.).


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 23, 2007)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> There is more stock in going with a school that follows the Bible and the WCF (or under the tutelage of a godly pastor) than there is in accredidation of a School that has a name (Harvard, Yale, Etc.).





And also, [NASB]2 Timothy 2:15[/NASB] says diligent study is the way to "present yourself approved" and that you should be able to accurately handle "the word of truth". This can be done under godly tutelage of any sort. (In my humble opinion)


----------



## DMcFadden (Sep 24, 2007)

We are living in a time when the government will likely soon make it more problematic to function as a church. Add to this the cost of traditional seminary education (I know of some who leave seminary with $50k - $60k in combined educational debt). Look at the difficulty many congregations have supporting a "full time" pastor. And, consider that some Reformed schools are putting tons of courses on the internet free in MP3 format (e.g., RTS and Covenant). If a person worked under tutelage of a solid pastor and utilized the free courses by people such as J.I. Packer, etc., I can imagine that they would receive an education equivalent to a standard accredited seminary. 

And, for those who want the structure of a formal program, places like Whitefield look like they provide a credible Reformed education at an amazing price.


----------



## larryjf (Sep 24, 2007)

I don't believe it should matter in a religious school.
The Church should not have outside organizations place any requirements on how they educate. In the end it gives someone outside of the Church authority in how the Church educates.

Also, i find no mention of accreditation in the Bible, so i would prefer to judge a school by the graduates that they produce (Mat 7:15-20).


----------



## larryjf (Sep 24, 2007)

I would consider the schools pretty much equal regarding choosing someone to pastor our church. But then again, i would have no problem with someone who does not have advanced degrees assuming that all of his attributes are still equal. I don't think one needs seminary to be an educated pastor, i just think helps, and many are not cut out for the self-discipline of doing it outside of seminary.


----------



## shackleton (Sep 24, 2007)

Having been on both sides of it I would say it depends on what you intend to do. If you are just wanting to get involved in the ministry at a local church, even and including the level of pastor, accreditation does not matter, just that you know the material and can pass the rigorous reformed ordination process. Now, if you want to be a teacher in a bible college or seminary and especially in the big ones, any RTS, any WTS etc, then accreditation is important. In these cases you even have to factor in _which_ schools you attend so that you will have a better shot at achieving your goal. 
With counseling I am not sure but was wanting to find out. Can you can get certified in Nouthetic Counseling by going to a non-accredited school? If you do, are you allowed to practice? I am curious to know. 
So I guess my answer would be, it depends.


----------



## bradofshaw (Sep 24, 2007)

Does anyone know of any men who have trained only under a pastor (without a seminary degree) and been ordained in a body such as the OPC, PCA, etc. in recent years? I understand this was once a regular model for pastoral training. I wonder how open the reformed church is to reviving this practice?


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 24, 2007)

bradofshaw said:


> Does anyone know of any men who have trained only under a pastor (without a seminary degree) and been ordained in a body such as the OPC, PCA, etc. in recent years? I understand this was once a regular model for pastoral training. I wonder how open the reformed church is to reviving this practice?



Our denomination, the RPCUS, currently has such a program. Our TEs work along with Christ College and offer an accredited seminary degree upon completion of the training. This gives the candidate/student the opportunity to study under the tutelage of several godly pastors. Structure is provided but also flexibility in scheduling and pace to help accommodate men who have families, jobs, and other responsibilities.


----------



## RamistThomist (Sep 24, 2007)

When the totalitarian Power State moves in and takes control, your accredited theological degree will mean little in the eyes of the world (and isn't that the point of accreditation anyway)?


----------



## JonathanHunt (Sep 24, 2007)

Josh,

To my mind it entirely depends upon the church that calls a man. As far as I am concerned, the churches with the greatest spirituality look at the course a man has studies, and who has taught him and mentored him, rather than the name of the college and the piece of paper he holds at the end.

JH


----------



## Kevin (Sep 24, 2007)

bradofshaw said:


> Does anyone know of any men who have trained only under a pastor (without a seminary degree) and been ordained in a body such as the OPC, PCA, etc. in recent years? I understand this was once a regular model for pastoral training. I wonder how open the reformed church is to reviving this practice?



RPCUS, PCC, ARP, OPC, BP; I know men in all 5 who do not have a seminary dgree ordained by these bodies.


----------



## elnwood (Sep 24, 2007)

Of course, it matters what ministry a person is going into. If one wants to get a higher degree (D.Min., Th.M., Th.D./Ph.D.) at an accredited school, you almost always need an accredited M.Div. If you want to be a professor at an accredited school, you'll need an accredited doctorate.

A degree from an accredited school means that the school met certain minimum education standards in terms of class structures, administration, and faculty standards.

A lot of non-accredited schools do not have faculty with accredited degrees, offer degrees by correspondence, and some even make up their own masters and doctoral degrees that have no accredited school equivalent, and have degree programs that are the same name as a degree from an accredited school but have vastly different requirements.

Accreditation in the U.S. is not by government organizations, but by state-recognized organizations. Although you hear it a lot, I simply don't buy the notion that accreditation compromises biblical standards for seminaries, and to say so is to say that the Westminster and RTS seminaries are unbiblical.


----------



## Answerman (Sep 24, 2007)

I voted little to none. I believe a signed statement of faith and a rigorous examination before taking any office would be the best idea.

As I apply this to my homeschool philosophy, I believe that Theology (the Queen of the sciences), Philosophy, History, Logic and Literature skills are the most important subjects. The government almost totally ignores these subjects (for their own benefit) in their accreditation and therefore we are at odds as to the type of person we want to create through the educational process. Many in the educational establishment consider this child abuse, but I call it pressing the antithesis.


----------



## weinhold (Sep 24, 2007)

I voted in favor of accreditation. Can anyone name a school with an excellent academic reputation but which is not accredited?


----------



## wsw201 (Sep 24, 2007)

weinhold said:


> I voted in favor of accreditation. Can anyone name a school with an excellent academic reputation but which is not accredited?



GPTS.


----------



## Ambrose (Sep 24, 2007)

weinhold said:


> I voted in favor of accreditation. Can anyone name a school with an excellent academic reputation but which is not accredited?



Ummm.... Harvard University?


----------



## elnwood (Sep 24, 2007)

Chad Degenhart said:


> weinhold said:
> 
> 
> > I voted in favor of accreditation. Can anyone name a school with an excellent academic reputation but which is not accredited?
> ...



That's an old myth propagated by diploma mills.

Harvard University is accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges, and Harvard Divinity School is accredited by the Association of Theological Schools. Both accreditation associations are recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.


----------



## weinhold (Sep 24, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> weinhold said:
> 
> 
> > I voted in favor of accreditation. Can anyone name a school with an excellent academic reputation but which is not accredited?
> ...



I wonder how many people would know this school by its acronym; I certainly don't.


----------



## Wannabee (Sep 24, 2007)

Answerman said:


> I voted little to none. I believe a signed statement of faith and a rigorous examination before taking any office would be the best idea.
> 
> As I apply this to my homeschool philosophy, I believe that Theology (the Queen of the sciences), Philosophy, History, Logic and Literature skills are the most important subjects. The government almost totally ignores these subjects (for their own benefit) in their accreditation and therefore we are at odds as to the type of person we want to create through the educational process. Many in the educational establishment consider this child abuse, but I call it pressing the antithesis.


Well stated.

I don't think Princeton is accredited. Accrediting organizations have a reputation to keep. Therefore they require certain standards to be met. Generally these standards are not sympathetic to Christian ministry. For instance, a seminary is for the purpose of training men for the ministry. Most agencies have a hard time with a school that only allows men to attend. Schools have to spend a certain amount per year on their libraries. Other restrictions and rules are placed on the schools in order to keep their accreditation. Those entering the school have to have a minimum education prior to enrollment. For instance, at least 90% of the entering class has to have a BA minimum. Ten percent, in some instances, can be older men with limited education. 

Much of the problem with these schools is that churches now rely on them to fulfill the mandate given to the church. They send guys away to seminary in order to get almost all of their training, rather than training them and sending them to seminary to get refined. Seminaries should be the icing, not the whole cake. That's not necessarily the shool's fault. But the church is accountable and, as has been mentioned, needs to step up and train her men within the local body (2 Tim 2:2).

Biblical purity and a complete dependence upon Scripture are indespensible. Accreditation is nice, but hardly necessary; unless one plans on pursuing a teaching career where an accredited degree is required.


----------



## weinhold (Sep 24, 2007)

> I don't think Princeton is accredited.



The Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools accredits Princeton.


----------



## elnwood (Sep 24, 2007)

weinhold said:


> > I don't think Princeton is accredited.
> 
> 
> 
> The Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools accredits Princeton.



Sigh. And before someone else says it, Yale is also accredited.

Here's my problem with unaccredited seminaries (doesn't apply to seminaries that are actually seeking accreditation). By offering a "degree" that is not comparable to the school standards of accredited programs, they are in a sense deceiving people by saying they offer a degree at a particular standard that they don't meet.

Reformed denominations insist on an educated clergy, which is fine, but they often define the ordination standard based on the current educational standard that we have -- a Master of Divinity.

I think non-accredited schools are trying to have their cake and eat it by saying that they offer equivalent standards, and yet don't want to seek accreditation and prove it. If a Reformed Seminary is going to offer a Master of Divinity degree, it ought to be honest and seek to have and maintain the standards as an M.Div. at an accredited school and pursue accreditation.

There are plenty of bible colleges and seminaries that have been accredited, and there are a few different accreditation agencies that are recognized by the Department of Education. A school can be regionally accredited, or it can be accredited by ATS, or it can be accredited by TRACS, or it can be accredited by ABHE. Some of these are specifically for Christian institutions. Westminster in California is accredited regionally and by ATS. The Masters College and Seminary is regionally accredited. Even Bob Jones University is now accredited, and they're fundamentalists! There really is no excuse not to be accredited if indeed a school holds the standards for accreditation.

If a Reformed institution wants to train pastors and maintain their own educational standards apart from a recognized accreditation standard, they should do so, but not call it a Master of Divinity. Call it a certificate program, or a diploma program, or something else. Many non-accredited schools, like The Midwest Center for Biblical Studies (Welcome to the Midwest Center for Theological Studies), do this. If the program is good enough for ordination, then the name of the program shouldn't matter to the presbytery.


----------



## weinhold (Sep 24, 2007)

elnwood said:


> weinhold said:
> 
> 
> > > I don't think Princeton is accredited.
> ...



Well said.


----------



## KMK (Sep 24, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Here's my problem with unaccredited seminaries (doesn't apply to seminaries that are actually seeking accreditation). By offering a "degree" that is not comparable to the school standards of accredited programs, they are in a sense deceiving people by saying they offer a degree at a particular standard that they don't meet.



I have found this to be true over and over again and I think it is disingenuous. There are a few who tell you right up front they are not accredited and I praise them for that.

It is also important for us not to misrepresent ourselves. If your 'doctorate' is not accredited then maybe it is best not to refer to yourself as a 'doctor'. It is misleading. It really put me off when I found out that Dr. Hovind was not really a 'doctor'.


----------



## Wannabee (Sep 24, 2007)

weinhold said:


> > I don't think Princeton is accredited.
> 
> 
> 
> The Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools accredits Princeton.


----------



## wsw201 (Sep 25, 2007)

weinhold said:


> wsw201 said:
> 
> 
> > weinhold said:
> ...



Paul,

Its Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Joe Pipa is the President. How could you forget!


----------



## weinhold (Sep 25, 2007)

Wayne, thanks for the info. I found an interesting statement on their website:



> We are a trans-denominational Reformed seminary operating under a Board of Trustees. Additionally, we are committed to ecclesiastical accountability, and therefore enter into support and oversight agreements with church sessions and presbyteries that are in agreement with our mission. In light of this commitment, we seek our accreditation from ecclesiastical bodies.



I suppose this means that Greenville is not accredited but seeks accreditation, only not from regional accrediting organizations.


----------



## elnwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Another example of a pastor's school that didn't grant degrees was the Trinity Ministerial Academy, which trained many Reformed Baptist pastors before it became defunct. Although accredited schools have recognized the program as granting an M.Div.-equivalent (Sam Waldron, for example, went on to get his Th.M. at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary and Ph.D. at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary), I think it is commendable that Trinity Ministerial academy did not claim to offer a true M.Div.


----------



## JoeRe4mer (Sep 25, 2007)

I think that accreditation matters depending on the situation. To be sure there are some 
great schools that are not accredited, however if a person really wants to get a job in education "outside of the local church" having a degree from an accredited school is a must since you wont usally get a job without it even in a private school.


----------



## JoeRe4mer (Sep 25, 2007)

KMK said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my problem with unaccredited seminaries (doesn't apply to seminaries that are actually seeking accreditation). By offering a "degree" that is not comparable to the school standards of accredited programs, they are in a sense deceiving people by saying they offer a degree at a particular standard that they don't meet.
> ...



 The whole Hovind thing really bugged me out too...


----------



## Kevin (Sep 25, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Another example of a pastor's school that didn't grant degrees was the Trinity Ministerial Academy, which trained many Reformed Baptist pastors before it became defunct. Although accredited schools have recognized the program as granting an M.Div.-equivalent (Sam Waldron, for example, went on to get his Th.M. at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary and Ph.D. at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary), I think it is commendable that Trinity Ministerial academy did not claim to offer a true M.Div.





I have mentioned Haddington House before on other threads ( Haddington House Trust ) and they also fit this catagory. They do not offer degrees, however the credits you earn are transferable to several ATS accredited schools.


----------



## LockTheDeadbolt (Sep 25, 2007)

Toronto Baptist Seminary's not technically accredited, nor do they seek accreditation (though they have degree-conferring rights since their inception in 1927).


----------



## Kevin (Sep 26, 2007)

LockTheDeadbolt said:


> Toronto Baptist Seminary's not technically accredited, nor do they seek accreditation (though they have degree-conferring rights since their inception in 1927).



True enough. However almost no Canadian school is accredited in the American sense. In Canada (as well as most of the Commonwealth) has a system of Charters. A school is granted a charter by some competent authority & then they have the legal right to issue a degree as covered by their charter.

A charter may be issued by a Provincial Legislature, Parliment, or a member of the Royal Family. The last is very rare and is usually identifiable by the name of the College (Kings, Queens, etc). A charter is good only for the purpose given and is not a blanket approval to grant degrees.

TBS is a chartered school & as such can issue degrees that are covered by the charter, i.e. they can not issue an MD or an MBA. 

So for you to say that RBS is unacredited and does not seek accreditation is true but beyond the scope of the discussion. An American school that is accredited is considered here to be the equivelent of having a charter.


----------



## DMcFadden (Sep 26, 2007)

OK, guys, I'm a newbie to this board and to reformed culture. I was under the impression that many of you had great respect for Whitefield and the ARTS seminaries (e.g., Greenville and Puritan Reformed) as providers of quality theological education. Obviously places like WTS and RTS will always be highly respected. However, it seemed to me that some of you think highly of the other schools as well????

I'm confused.


----------



## elnwood (Sep 26, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> OK, guys, I'm a newbie to this board and to reformed culture. I was under the impression that many of you had great respect for Whitefield and the ARTS seminaries (e.g., Greenville and Puritan Reformed) as providers of quality theological education. Obviously places like WTS and RTS will always be highly respected. However, it seemed to me that some of you think highly of the other schools as well????
> 
> I'm confused.



PuritanBoard (and the Reformed community in general) is far from monolithic in its views on what seminaries are respected and high quality. You can name just about any Reformed seminary, and some people on this board will highly recommend it and others will highly discourage anyone from going there. The value of accreditation plays into this judgment and, as the poll shows, this is a divisive topic.


----------

