# What Seminary 'Produces' the Best Preachers?



## Romans922

Given the fact that God gifts His People the way He so desires, and it is the seminary who teaches and guides how and what a person will preach, which seminary (to the best of your knowledge) best prepares and 'produces' (if I could use that term) the best preachers?

Remember, 
I am not saying which one you went to or which is the best BAPTIST or PRESBYTERIAN seminary.


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## N. Eshelman

You forgot my alma mater, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary!


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## KMK

One of my favorite preachers, John Weaver, went to BJU.


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## Romans922

Sorry, I knew I was going to forget some seminaries. I was having too much fun putting in "Talbot" and such.


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## SolaScriptura

I went to SBTS... so...


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## Ivan

I voted for SBTS. How could I not?

You had New Orleans, but not Southwestern. At one time I would have said Southwestern 'produced' the best preachers in the SBC, but I'd give the nod to Southern now.


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## greenbaggins

Where's Mid-America?


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## Ivan

greenbaggins said:


> Where's Mid-America?



Mid-America Reformed? It's there.

Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. You don't want it there.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Rpts!!!


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## Kevin

I voted for WTS-PA only because I know more men who went there. And most of them were good preachers.


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## D. Paul

LIBERTY!


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## Kevin

KMK said:


> One of my favorite preachers, John Weaver, went to BJU.



Brother, an interesting story. 

I invited brother. Weaver to preach at our PCA church in GA a few years ago. I invited one of his former (BJU) profs, who was at that time teaching at Temple Baptist. The prof told me when I stopped by his office to invite him (I had taken a few classes from him myself) that he had taught 10,000 students over the years! He said that no one he had ever taught, or even heard of, knew the scriptures as well as Pastor Weaver!

If you have ever heard brother. Weaver preach, you know what he meant.


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## Zenas

Ivan said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where's Mid-America?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mid-America Reformed? It's there.
> 
> Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. You don't want it there.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure this is in Memphis across from Bellevue. Am I wrong?

I keep hoping there are closet Calvinists there in case I ever want to take some classes from the evil Baptists one day. I would be hoping past hope then, wouldn't I? Or would I?


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## Romans922

Remember, 
I didn't say which one you went to or which is the best BAPTIST seminary.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

Nobody's chosen Dallas Theological Seminary yet?


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## BertMulder

Protestant Reformed Seminary


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## ReadBavinck

I think WSC has helped equip some great preachers. I can think of many off the top of my head. However, I bet there are probably 5 people in the whole country who are qualified to answer this question. And, I'm not one.


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## DTK

I don't think Seminaries make/produce preachers. And given the artificial setting in which they attempt to teach homiletics in the classroom setting, I'm not convinced that they are able to prepare students for the pulpit ministry _from the standpoint of homiletical studies_.

This is not an argument against seminaries, nor should it be construed that I don't like or support them. On the contrary, I think that many of them do a great job of giving men a theological education. I have many delightful memories, and learned many invaluable lessons that I would not have learned otherwise. But I do not think they produce preachers. 

I guess I think too much like D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones in this respect...


> What about preaching as such, the act of preaching of which I have spoken? There is only one thing to say about this; it cannot be taught. That is impossible. Preachers are born, not made. This is an absolute. You will never teach a man to be a preacher if he is not already one. All your books such as _The A.B.C. of Preaching_, or _Preaching Made Easy_ should be thrown in to the fire as soon as possible. But if a man is a born preacher you can help him a little—but not much. He can perhaps be improved a little here and there. _Preaching and Preachers_, p. 119.



Now, unlike Lloyd-Jones, I do think that "a born preacher" can improve greatly, especially as he grows and matures, but I do not believe that seminaries produce good preachers. 

DTK


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## Romans922

This is why I said, "Produces".



DTK said:


> I don't think Seminaries make/produce preachers. And given the artificial setting in which they attempt to teach homiletics in the classroom setting, I'm not convinced that they are able to prepare students for the pulpit ministry _from the standpoint of homiletical studies_.
> 
> This is not an argument against seminaries, nor should it be construed that I don't like or support them. On the contrary, I think that many of them do a great job of giving men a theological education. I have many delightful memories, and learned many invaluable lessons that I would not have learned otherwise. But I do not think they produce preachers.
> 
> I guess I think too much like D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones in this respect...
> 
> 
> 
> What about preaching as such, the act of preaching of which I have spoken? There is only one thing to say about this; it cannot be taught. That is impossible. Preachers are born, not made. This is an absolute. You will never teach a man to be a preacher if he is not already one. All your books such as _The A.B.C. of Preaching_, or _Preaching Made Easy_ should be thrown in to the fire as soon as possible. But if a man is a born preacher you can help him a little—but not much. He can perhaps be improved a little here and there. _Preaching and Preachers_, p. 119.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, unlike Lloyd-Jones, I do think that "a born preacher" can improve greatly, especially as he grows and matures, but I do not believe that seminaries produce good preachers.
> 
> DTK
Click to expand...


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## DTK

Yes, I know. That's why I said "produce/produces."

DTK


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## Romans922




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## Kaalvenist

RPTS: _Alma Mater_ of Ted Donnelly, David Reese, and many more.


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## danmpem

I'm having such a hard time trying to figure out what is sarcasm and what is not on this thread...

I like the  in "Other [Roman Catholic, Mormon, etc. ]"


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## Ivan

Zenas said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where's Mid-America?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mid-America Reformed? It's there.
> 
> Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. You don't want it there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure this is in Memphis across from Bellevue. Am I wrong?
> 
> I keep hoping there are closet Calvinists there in case I ever want to take some classes from the evil Baptists one day. I would be hoping past hope then, wouldn't I? Or would I?
Click to expand...


Yes, the one by Bellevue. I don't know of any Calvinist there, although Tom Nettles once taught there. The impression I get is that they are anti-Calvinist and very pro Dispensational.


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## py3ak

To answer that question you'd need to have heard several (maybe 10) graduates from each seminary preach, to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and I think you'd be wise to check that they were of the persuasion that the seminary had assisted. And in order for your answer to be meaningful to anyone else, you would have to agree on a definition of good preaching. And all of that is only worthwhile if you are willing to say that seminary makes/produces good preachers; but I doubt that you could go further than saying that a given seminary provides a good setting for a man to refine the speaking gift God has given him.


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## CDM

Well, if the professors (which are _all_ preachers) are any indication, I would say my own seminary  - Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Dr's. Pipa, Curto, Carrick, Dyer, Shaw & Co. are top tier.


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## shackleton

I would have to agree with DTK. Some people can obtain a lot of knowledge but are not any good at preaching, they are very stiff and wooden and the listeners could honestly care less what he has to say because he cannot convey the message. Some people just like to beat people over the head with what they know. Knowledge of facts does not make one a good preacher, you either have the talent or you do not. 

Pastor means shepherd and I have know many who could not fight their way out of a paper bag, theologically, but care for people and would help anyone giving them the shirt off their back. (practically, people are more interested in how much you care and how well you can help them with their problems, granted a good education helps with this) I have know few (personally) who have the delicate balance of knowledge and being able to convey that knowledge in a practical and effective manner. 

D. James Kennedy took acting and speech lessons to help with his preaching. If one is "called to preach" (even though that term never appears in the bible) should not they also try to do a good job at it and learn to be a good public speaker since that is what most of their job entails?

Of all the reformed pastors I have talked to in the past two years only one had "knowledge" and he was an arrogant hateful SOB. The others were not that adept at theology but were more "pastoral" they got into the ministry to help people and that is what they are good at.


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## Zenas

"Of all the reformed pastors I have talked to in the past two years only one had "knowledge" and he was an arrogant hateful SOB."

If you hadn't made it clear he was a pastor I was gonna ask that you stop talking about me.


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## JBaldwin

I voted "other" simply because I don't know that good preachers can be "produced" out of a seminary. A good seminary can do a great job educating a man in the Word of God, and as far as I know, most if not all of these listed do. However, when it comes to being a good preacher, it is a combination of the God's gifting, the man's humility and desire to learn from the Spirit of God Who is to be our Teacher, and his willingness to learn from the example of others. Over the years, I've seen godly men come from very humble beginnings, trained in the most unlikely places, and God has used them. 

There is nothing wrong with seminary training, and it is one of the best ways to educate a man and ensure he learns all the things he needs to know to study and preach the Word of God, but it is not the seminary that makes the man. In my humble opinion, too many preachers come out of seminaries with a cloak of pride, and it sometimes takes years of ministering to people for that cloak to come off.


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## shackleton

By SOB I meant Strangely Odd Bloke


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## a mere housewife

I thought you were breaking off in tears.


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## Galatians220

nleshelman said:


> You forgot my alma mater, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary!


 
_*Hello, Mr. Eshelman!!!*_  Yes, I was going to mention PRTS -- my husband and I met you last month there at Dr. Murray's conference on Biblical evangelism. Typed up my notes from that conference and sent them around to a couple of dozen people/families... who all enjoyed them immensely.

I vote for PRTS.


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## danmpem

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Nobody's chosen Dallas Theological Seminary yet?



While he's not classic DTS, I believe Steve Lawson attended while S. Lewis Johnson was teaching there.


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## tcalbrecht

Given that the product of most seminaries is mediocre at best, the poll seems a bit nonsensical. As a former member of a candidates and credentials committee, I've listened to a lot of "fresh faces" work their way through the licensure/ordination process. I must say that I’ve never heard a good preacher who was the result of a seminary environment.

Related question; if you have to choose, would you want a man who is a good preacher but a poor pastor or vice versa?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

The latter...


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## CDM

tcalbrecht said:


> Given that the product of most seminaries is mediocre at best, the poll seems a bit nonsensical. As a former member of a candidates and credentials committee, I've listened to a lot of "fresh faces" work their way through the licensure/ordination process. I must say that I’ve never heard a good preacher who was the result of a seminary environment.
> 
> Related question; if you have to choose, would you want a man who is a good preacher but a poor pastor or vice versa?



Good preacher.* This is essential. There are the other elders who can pastorally care for the people, too.


*it all depends on how you define "good". Does it mean accurate or persuasive or what?


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## JBaldwin

tcalbrecht said:


> Given that the product of most seminaries is mediocre at best, the poll seems a bit nonsensical. As a former member of a candidates and credentials committee, I've listened to a lot of "fresh faces" work their way through the licensure/ordination process. I must say that I’ve never heard a good preacher who was the result of a seminary environment.
> 
> Related question; if you have to choose, would you want a man who is a good preacher but a poor pastor or vice versa?




What do you mean by "good preacher"? 

When I think of "good preacher" I think of someone who can expound the Scriptures (ability to deliver is always an added plus, but I don't think it matters.) 

When I look at what the Scriptures teach about elders, it says they are to be "apt to teach", but they should also have shepherding hearts. So often, I think, men who love to teach, but have no "heart" for the flock take on the roll of pastor. They often end up falling flat on their faces, because they are not able to shepherd the flock. Those men belong in strict teaching rolls (In my humble opinion). 

If God calls someone, He also equips them with the gifts necessary to complete the task at hand.


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## Bygracealone

Any seminary that can teach you to preach with an Irish or Scottish accent


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## danmpem

JBaldwin said:


> What do you mean by "good preacher"?
> 
> When I think of "good preacher" I think of someone who can expound the Scriptures (ability to deliver is always an added plus, but I don't think it matters.)



I wonder if that's the whole idea. Some of my friends who are in the pastoral ministry are wonderful teachers of the word in small groups, and are very skilled in expounding the Scriptures, but are really lousy preachers behind the pulpit.


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## tcalbrecht

mangum said:


> Good preacher.* This is essential. There are the other elders who can pastorally care for the people, too.
> 
> 
> *it all depends on how you define "good". Does it mean accurate or persuasive or what?



"Good preacher" was not defined in the OP. I suspect it is a somewhat subjective term.

I have to disagree with your premise, however, "other elders who can pastorally care for the people". I believe that pastoral gifts are primary for all the elders. Some are also qualified to preach and teach. I don’t think a "good preacher" who cannot pastor ought to be the leader of a congregation. After all, we do not typically refer to them as "senior preachers" but rather senior pastors, etc. E.g., see PCA BCO 23-1; 1 Tim. 5:17.


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## Romans922

A Good pastor who can read Scripture is better than a bad pastor who can preach well.


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## JBaldwin

danmpem said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by "good preacher"?
> 
> When I think of "good preacher" I think of someone who can expound the Scriptures (ability to deliver is always an added plus, but I don't think it matters.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if that's the whole idea. Some of my friends who are in the pastoral ministry are wonderful teachers of the word in small groups, and are very skilled in expounding the Scriptures, but are really lousy preachers behind the pulpit.
Click to expand...


That is true, but even so, I would much rather have a pastor who is a good teacher, but lousy preacher, AND has a shepherd's heart than a pastor who who preach, but can't shepherd.


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## Romans922

REALLY? 8 for WTS PA? Is that because you guys have only ever heard of that one seminary or ....? [Not saying you are wrong, I'm just surprised]


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## Archlute

Romans922 said:


> A Good pastor who can read Scripture is better than a bad pastor who can preach well.



Amen.


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## Archlute

What, no one for Covenant???


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## cupotea

Archlute said:


> What, no one for Covenant???



Yes, how about Covenant? I know some friends there, what's everybody's
opinion about it?


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## 21st Century Calvinist

I too was surprised to see that Covenant was not on the list. I guess it must be under "other" along with catholic and mormon.
I am probably biased in favor of Covenant, but I have heard several good preachers who have graduated from there.


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## Zenas

I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.

Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.

If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.


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## Stephen

Zenas said:


> I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.
> 
> Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.
> 
> If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.




Interesting observation, brother. I certainly have strong reservations about Covenant. It is the only seminary of the PCA. I would encourage students to consider Mid-America in Indiana, Puritan Reformed, Greenville, WTS in California or RTS in Charlottee.


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## Gesetveemet

Protestant Reformed Seminary, church governed with no armchair theologians. 





.


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## cih1355

The Cornerstone Seminary was not in the poll. Here is the link to the site:
The Cornerstone Seminary » Welcome!

It is located at my church.


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## jawyman

I have to vote for PRTS not just because it is my seminary, but because PRTS is one of the only seminaries to emphasize experiential preaching.


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## SolaGratia

Stephen said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly have strong reservations about Covenanat. It is the only seminary of the PCA. I would encourage students to consider Mid-America in Indiana, Puritan Reformed, Greenville, WTS in California or RTS in Charlottee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about New Geneva Theological Seminary?
> Isn't that seminary also a part of the PCA?
Click to expand...


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## Casey

I voted for my own seminary (Mid-America Reformed Seminary) because all the professors are ministers and have experience preaching themselves, the curriculum places great emphasis on preaching, and of course I know some fellow students who I believe are "good preachers." Perhaps a more objective way of determining an answer to the question in the OP would be to compare the number of classes offered that have to do with preparation and delivery of sermons.


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## Romans922

Sounds exactly like RTS Jackson



StaunchPresbyterian said:


> I voted for my own seminary (Mid-America Reformed Seminary) because all the professors are ministers and have experience preaching themselves, the curriculum places great emphasis on preaching, and of course I know some fellow students who I believe are "good preachers." Perhaps a more objective way of determining an answer to the question in the OP would be to compare the number of classes offered that have to do with preparation and delivery of sermons.


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## Contra Marcion

greenbaggins said:


> Where's Mid-America?



Lane, 

Did you mean Mid-America Reformed Seminary? If so, that's in Dyer, IN (Right outside Chicago). 

Dr. Cornell Venema is president there, and they are as solid as it gets, In my humble opinion.


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## CalvinandHodges

Hi:

Students who leave Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary (not on list) have preached 90 sermons. I think this seminary should be high on the list.

-CH


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## dwayne

Bygracealone said:


> Any seminary that can teach you to preach with an Irish or Scottish accent



I agree.


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## Stephen

SolaGratia said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly have strong reservations about Covenanat. It is the only seminary of the PCA. I would encourage students to consider Mid-America in Indiana, Puritan Reformed, Greenville, WTS in California or RTS in Charlottee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about New Geneva Theological Seminary?
> Isn't that seminary also a part of the PCA?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No
Click to expand...


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## Me Died Blue

Ivan said:


> Yes, the one by Bellevue. I don't know of any Calvinist there, although Tom Nettles once taught there. The impression I get is that they are anti-Calvinist and very pro Dispensational.



Correct.


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## JohnTombes

To get the right answers, we need to ask the right questions. 

What makes a preacher rise above others to be distinguished and considered among the 'best?'

Mike


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## Michael Butterfield

Name one good preacher from WTS-PA. I cannot recall one of recent vintage.


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## Kevin

Michael Butterfield said:


> Name one good preacher from WTS-PA. I cannot recall one of recent vintage.



OK. My former pastor the Revd. Bob Borger.


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## Kevin

Or the Revd. John VanEyk of cambridge ON?


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## shackleton

I just noticed that Princeton was on the list. I recently heard Bart Ehrman debate a Baptist apologist on the whether or not your can prove historically that Jesus rose from the dead. Sadly, Ehrman ate the baptist for lunch, he started to feel bad and so made some of the points the baptist should have been making. He is a very intelligent, well informed person it is to bad he went to Princeton he would be a valuable asset if he now, after knowing what he does, would come back to the truth. I think if he had discovered reformed theology things might have gone differently the problem is so many people are taught to hate Calvinism and never take the time to read about it for themselves. 

Now at Princeton they have the likes of Elaine Pagels as a professor and teach mostly on the Gnostic Gospels and why everything the bible teaches is false and cannot be trusted


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## puritanpilgrim

> Other [Roman Catholic, Mormon, etc. ]



I hope that is a joke...


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## Romans922

puritanpilgrim said:


> Other [Roman Catholic, Mormon, etc.  ]
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that is a joke...
Click to expand...


I didn't see a smiley face.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

You may want to first list them all before the vote. There are a few you are missing - like Whitefield?

Also, I don't know what "best" preachers mean. What does _best _mean? I would have quite a few qualifications in there - i.e. question on worship, whether they hold to Westminster or not, or a revised version, etc. You may want to revise things because even Joel Osteen is a good "speaker" and has great "speaking ability" to "affect people" emotionally and spiritually. So "best" can't mean that.


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## Romans922

There is an option for "Other".


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## Pilgrim

Michael Butterfield said:


> Name one good preacher from WTS-PA. I cannot recall one of recent vintage.



Andrew Webb, Lane Keister and Jim Cassidy (OPC minister) are some other recent WTS-Pa grads.


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## DMcFadden

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> You may want to first list them all before the vote. There are a few you are missing - like Whitefield?
> 
> Also, I don't know what "best" preachers mean. What does _best _mean? I would have quite a few qualifications in there - i.e. question on worship, whether they hold to Westminster or not, or a revised version, etc. You may want to revise things because even Joel Osteen is a good "speaker" and has great "speaking ability" to "affect people" emotionally and spiritually. So "best" can't mean that.



Yikes, Matthew! Yech, ech, ouch, oooo, nooo, man, what in the world . . . using the category of "good preacher" and Joel Osteen in the same sentence just kind of creeps me out. Mesmerizing manipulator, maybe? Good preacher, never!


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## DMcFadden

joshua said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehrman ate the baptist for lunch...
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt he'll have the same victory with James White next year.
Click to expand...


I pray not. Ehrman is the worst kind of critic, one who was "one of us" and knows all the moves. After Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton, and Princeton, his current professed agnosticism is a bitter blow. With his smarts, language skills, and string of bestsellers, it would be so sweet to see him with the truth.


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## ChristopherPaul

*Bart D. Ehrman*

This guy is a sad story, He interned at the PCA church I was a member at in Princeton.

My pastor said, "He entered seminary as a brittle Fundamentalist and left seminary as a brittle Liberal. Towards the end of his internship I had to ask him to stop teaching at PPC."


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## Reformed Covenanter

Reformed Theological College, Knockbracken, Belfast produces the best preachers. Well, its the only answer I can give since its students are the only preachers I regularly hear.


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## greenbaggins

Pilgrim said:


> Michael Butterfield said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name one good preacher from WTS-PA. I cannot recall one of recent vintage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Webb, Lane Keister and Jim Cassidy (OPC minister) are some other recent WTS-Pa grads.
Click to expand...


That is awfully kind of you. However, I think that Phil Ryken and Rick Phillips deserve this distinction far more than I, and they are both WTS-PA grads.


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## greenbaggins

JohnTombes said:


> To get the right answers, we need to ask the right questions.
> 
> What makes a preacher rise above others to be distinguished and considered among the 'best?'
> 
> Mike



I am going to go out on a limb here and say a few things about what I think makes a good preacher. Firstly, he can take what is complicated and make it simple. This is the basic task of the scholar. I do not believe that a pastor can be a great preacher unless he is a scholar. Of course, this does not imply schooling, necessarily. Scholarship does not have to be by way of schooling. 

Secondly, he makes the text understandable. This is similar to the first point, although slightly different. He knows his audience and their tendencies well enough to know how to communicate the same old doctrine in new ways. 

Thirdly, he preaches nothing but Christ crucified, resurrected, and ascended. Anyone preaching on the OT, for instance, without preaching Christ, could just as well be a Jew (John 5 and Luke 24 come to mind here). 

Fourthly, he must be doctrinal-practical. The reason I hyphenated these two words is because so many separate doctrine and practice. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Doctrine without practice is not doctrine! Practice without doctrine is wrong-headed and empty! 

Fifthly, he himself must be holy. As Robert M'Cheyne says, "A holy minister is an awful weapon in the hands of Almighty God." This does not mean sinless. But it does mean that he exegetes his own heart, and practices what he preaches. 

Sixthly, he must love those sheep committed to his care. It is all about caring for the sheep for the glory of God.


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## yeutter

*Pittsburgh, Protestant Reformed, Canadian Reformed*

Pittsburgh used to produce excellent preachers back when Addison Leitch, and John H. Gerstner were on the faculty.
In my experience, Protestant Reformed grads and Canadian Reformed grads do an excellent job of showing how the text appointed for that day relates to core doctrines of the faith.
Reformed Episcopal used to produce excellent preachers.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

yeutter said:


> Pittsburgh used to produce excellent preachers back when Addison Leitch, and John H. Gerstner were on the faculty.
> In my experience, Protestant Reformed grads and Canadian Reformed grads do an excellent job of showing how the text appointed for that day relates to core doctrines of the faith.
> Reformed Episcopal used to produce excellent preachers.



Well I know one preacher coming out of Pittsburgh that is not too shabby...


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## DMcFadden

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well I know one preacher coming out of Pittsburgh that is not too shabby...



Yeah, me too . . . R.C. Sproul.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

DMcFadden said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I know one preacher coming out of Pittsburgh that is not too shabby...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, me too . . . R.C. Sproul.
Click to expand...





Ole R.C.'s name is anathema in the halls of my fine institution. Sadly.


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## ReformedChapin

For those of you who have said that Covenant isn't truthfully reformed, I would you to express why you feel this way.


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## Romans922

SoliDeoGloria said:


> For those of you who have said that Covenant isn't truthfully reformed, I would you to express why you feel this way.



Who said that Covenant isn't truthfully reformed?


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## Pilgrim

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I know one preacher coming out of Pittsburgh that is not too shabby...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, me too . . . R.C. Sproul.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ole R.C.'s name is anathema in the halls of my fine institution. Sadly.
Click to expand...


I'm sure that goes for Gerstner too.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Pilgrim said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, me too . . . R.C. Sproul.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ole R.C.'s name is anathema in the halls of my fine institution. Sadly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure that goes for Gerstner too.
Click to expand...


Yep. Kind of sad actually, though I am sure it was the same at Princeton after 1940.


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## Pilgrim

greenbaggins said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Butterfield said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name one good preacher from WTS-PA. I cannot recall one of recent vintage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Webb, Lane Keister and Jim Cassidy (OPC minister) are some other recent WTS-Pa grads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is awfully kind of you. However, I think that Phil Ryken and Rick Phillips deserve this distinction far more than I, and they are both WTS-PA grads.
Click to expand...


They are certainly very good preachers. I was thinking of more "recent vintage" i.e. men who graduated from WTS within the last 10 years or less.


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## Reepicheep

Zenas said:


> I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.
> 
> Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.
> 
> If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.



I think I get what "truly reformed" is, but what are you saying "broadly evangelical" is? To me, broadly evangelical means semi-pelagian. Covenant certainly is not that. If I had it to do over, I'd go to Covenant again, no doubt. I'm definitely not "broadly evangelical".


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## SolaGratia

Lately I been reading and hearing some good stuff coming from WTS (east), like from Carl Trueman, Lane G. Tipton, Mark A. Garcia, K. Scott Oliphint, etc.

Is that seminary making its way to a truly reformed comeback?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Reepicheep said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.
> 
> Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.
> 
> If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I get what "truly reformed" is, but what are you saying "broadly evangelical" is? To me, broadly evangelical means semi-pelagian. Covenant certainly is not that. If I had it to do over, I'd go to Covenant again, no doubt. I'm definitely not "broadly evangelical".
Click to expand...


Not to speak for Zenas but I think what he means by "Broadly Evangelical" in a PCA context is that Covenant is producing Pastors who are weak theologically and also (I think as a result) tend to be more open to Broad styles of Worship, deaconesses, etc...


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## Reepicheep

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.
> 
> Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.
> 
> If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I get what "truly reformed" is, but what are you saying "broadly evangelical" is? To me, broadly evangelical means semi-pelagian. Covenant certainly is not that. If I had it to do over, I'd go to Covenant again, no doubt. I'm definitely not "broadly evangelical".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to speak for Zenas but I think what he means by "Broadly Evangelical" in a PCA context is that Covenant is producing Pastors who are weak theologically and also (I think as a result) tend to be more open to Broad styles of Worship, deaconesses, etc...
Click to expand...


That's a pretty strong charge that would demand considerable referencing.

Obviously as a graduate and member of my presbytery's candidates/credentials committee I would disagree with a sweeping statement like "Covenant is producing Pastors who are weak theologically..."

As for the preaching method taught at Covenant, it is classic expositional preaching with a uniquely redemptive focus. Bryan Chapell's book "Christ Centered Preaching" is the basis for the training one receives at Covenant.

If there are Covenant grads who are pro-deaconnesses, it's not because of the preaching curriculum.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

*Whoa! Hang on a minute there.*



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Westminster, PA gets it's recognition for the pastors it has graduated in the past, not the ones it currently graduates. I voted for it for that reason.
> 
> Covenant scares me a little because it's more Broadly Evangelical than Truly Reformed, or so it seems to me.
> 
> If I were to attend a seminary, I would attend one of the RTS campuses, hands-down, but then I would not be going to seminary to be a pastor anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I get what "truly reformed" is, but what are you saying "broadly evangelical" is? To me, broadly evangelical means semi-pelagian. Covenant certainly is not that. If I had it to do over, I'd go to Covenant again, no doubt. I'm definitely not "broadly evangelical".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to speak for Zenas but I think what he means by "Broadly Evangelical" in a PCA context is that Covenant is producing Pastors who are weak theologically and also (I think as a result) tend to be more open to Broad styles of Worship, deaconesses, etc...
Click to expand...


This is a most ridiculous assertion. In casting your unsubstantiated aspersions on Covenant you are in breach of the ninth commandment. I urge you to rethink what you are saying.
After you have attended classes at Covenant, spoken with the faculty, read some of their books, etc, come back here and then make these claims.


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## Pilgrim

Considering some of those on the list like Fuller, Princeton, Talbot, DTS and NOBTS, The Master's Seminary is another one that should have been included. (Yes I know it is dispensational.)


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## CharlieJ

One of the highlights at Greenville is the Senior Sermon. Each M. Div. student in the last year must preach for chapel. Afterward, each of the professors examines the sermon in relation to his field.

For example:

Dr. Pipa comments about the logic and structure of the sermon.
Dr. Carrick comments about the delivery, time usage, rhetorical skill, etc.
Dr. Smith comments about the use of systematic theology.
Dr. Willborn comments about the use of church history and biblical theology.
Dr. Dyer or Shaw (NT/OT) comment about exegetical points in the passage.

The result is the non-seniors constantly being reminded how their studies influence their preaching. It is a great motivation for study, as well as exposure to fantastic preaching. The best thing is hearing a great senior sermon, and then hearing how it could be even better.


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## Romans922

Something which has been lost at my former seminary (RTS Jackson). I wish they would've done what they used to do.



CharlieJ said:


> One of the highlights at Greenville is the Senior Sermon. Each M. Div. student in the last year must preach for chapel. Afterward, each of the professors examines the sermon in relation to his field.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Dr. Pipa comments about the logic and structure of the sermon.
> Dr. Carrick comments about the delivery, time usage, rhetorical skill, etc.
> Dr. Smith comments about the use of systematic theology.
> Dr. Willborn comments about the use of church history and biblical theology.
> Dr. Dyer or Shaw (NT/OT) comment about exegetical points in the passage.
> 
> The result is the non-seniors constantly being reminded how their studies influence their preaching. It is a great motivation for study, as well as exposure to fantastic preaching. The best thing is hearing a great senior sermon, and then hearing how it could be even better.


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## Contra_Mundum

Moderator Speaking

1) This thread was created 4.5 months ago, so please note the participants, and when they were participating when you respond.

2) Personally, I do not think anyone on this board, the professors at seminaries included, can speak to this poll beyond vague generalities. And you may have noticed that not many of them, or pastors on the board, have been commenting, except to push the thread to a more "neutral" tone.

3) This is an opinion poll, and probably an ill-conceived "beauty contest." And I really don't want to read any more negative "dinging" on any school you have not personally spent at least one semester at. It's either a first-hand report of facts, or I don't want to read it. I will delete, and issue infractions.


It really bothers me to see such a fundamental breach of principle here on the PB. People on and off this board read our material, YOUR material. YOU represent this board. Speak knowledgeably (I mean real knowledge) or don't speak. Think before you post.


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## govols

Wonder why TMS didn't make it?


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## TimV

Does anyone know anything about Bristol University in the UK?


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