# PCA pastor surplus



## Chas Brewer (Aug 26, 2022)

Hello I’m a new member to the Puritan bored but I’ve looked into a lot of threads. I know y’all have discussed the issue of a PCA pastor glut in the past. I was wondering is that still an issue or has the market thinned out a bit since then. I ask because I feel called to ministry and I’m in the PCA but I’m concerned on if I do pursue that if there will be any openings for me to pastor anywhere.


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## Taylor (Aug 26, 2022)

Hi, there. Welcome.

The best ones to ask about this are your elders. They know you best and have charge over your soul. If they feel you might be called to ministry, they will help you assess that. And if the Lord calls you, he will make a way, surplus or otherwise.

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## itsreed (Aug 26, 2022)

Chas Brewer said:


> Hello I’m a new member to the Puritan bored but I’ve looked into a lot of threads. I know y’all have discussed the issue of a PCA pastor glut in the past. I was wondering is that still an issue or has the market thinned out a bit since then. I ask because I feel called to ministry and I’m in the PCA but I’m concerned on if I do pursue that if there will be any openings for me to pastor anywhere.


It certainly appears as if Providence is leading the church in America into a period of pruning (Jh 15:1-8). This will mean many of the churches where a fresh seminary graduate might find an assistant position will no longer be available. At present in the PCA, by the numbers it appears that there are substantially more teaching elders looking for a call than there are vacant pulpits looking to call a TE. From a purerly earthly perspective, that's a sign that now is not a good time for looking at the pastorate as a career choice.

While such considerations might be kept in mind, these are actually waaaaaaaaay down the list of what a man must consider when contemplating, "is God calling me to ministry in his church?" Much more significant are the standard biblical considerations a man must prayerfully examine. Clowney's book on the calling subject is still a must read in this regard. The bottom line is that no matter how many/few pulpits there are, 1Ti 3:1 is still the driving consideration (it all but eliminates any others when the desire in the man follows from the Spirit's own work in him):

(1Tm 3:1 ESV) The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. (1Tm 3:1 ESV)

As mentioned by another here, begin with talking with the men shepherding you. The process in the PCA is well developed and will help you step by step discern the Lord's will in this regard.

One Caution: It is sadly deficient to look primarily (only?) at the number of vacant pulpits available in determining whether or not to pursue the pastorate. That is to look at the calling from earthly considerations, and risk missing the much more relevant biblical ones, the ones that trump all earthly considerations. Not saying your question does this; just offering a caution.

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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 26, 2022)

Consulting Services Foundation, the consulting firm that helps match up small reformed churches and pastors on the conservative side of the PCA told our pastor search committee the numbers but I don't remember them; but there are significantly fewer churches being chased by too many pastor candidates. That being said, we were told due to our strict confessional commitments that we were looking for a pink unicorn with silver hone and bells on or some such (a plain ole white unicorn is bad enough I suppose). But such rare animals can't be found, they find you. The pastor being installed in two day at our church walked in off the street with his family one Lord's Day between intern spots just looking for an evening service that night to attend and he fit what we were looking for as far as our commitments. Better match than I could have hoped for I think. In the Lord's providence we had begun looking when this man was wrapping up seminary work locally. I'm not saying every church will find or should find a pastor, any more than every one of the surplus pastors really is called to the ministry. There are small churches out there that will pay poverty wages for a tentmaker if they could only get a pastor willing to sacrifice. But for all the surplus, no one is doing that.

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## Edward (Aug 26, 2022)

As Chris noted, the first step should be whether your session confirms your calling.

If you are called, you are called.


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## Chas Brewer (Aug 26, 2022)

My session has not formally endorsed my call but when I meet with the session to become a member (I’m a convert to the reformed faith) the subject was brought up there where no objections to me pursuing but there where no inquiries about my call. Me and my pastor have discussed going under the care of the presbytery but at that time we held off from doing that because I was still 17 and we where not sure if they would accept someone that young. To clarify with my question I’m not saying I only care about getting a job but as a young man who cares about his future it’s something that I’ve struggled with wondering because I do feel strongly called to preach but I just worry about getting the opportunity to preach.


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## DanSSwing (Aug 27, 2022)

There is also a huge need for planting new English-speaking churches overseas to serve expat communities. If interested, you might contact PCA - Mission to the World: https://www.mtw.org/about

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## Jake (Aug 27, 2022)

As Jesus said, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few." This is as true today as when Jesus first said it. It may be that a particular denomination is "saturated" as it were with ministers -- well let's plant some churches. Let's look overseas. There are many places that I firmly believe have many of God's elect yet to be gathered, and no one should dismiss a call to the ministry because there is not a pulpit ready right in the place he's in. I continue as Jesus directed, "therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest."

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## therussellhome (Aug 27, 2022)

@Chas Brewer - in the theme of your original question, have you looked at military chaplaincy? After 20+ years in the army guard and reserves, reformed chaplains were almost the mythical unicorns mentioned. Thanks be to God that the only 1 in all that time God provided during part of my last deployment.

@NaphtaliPress - wow! My PSC is still searching though I suspect their search is not quite so reformed . I'm praying for a unicorn of any color and trusting for God's provision in whoever He provides.


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## Edward (Aug 27, 2022)

@Chas Brewer Those who have been around a good while have heard me say it before, but I'll repeat it.

Get educated in a marketable field or a skilled trade. Then think about seminary. Your options are going to be far greater if you have something to fall back on. 

I was talking to one of our pastors Friday evening and he mentioned that he had been supply once a month at a struggling church that can't afford a full time pastor. (other weeks are covered by interns from other churches or seminary students). A tentmaker would be a blessing to that congregation.

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## Pergamum (Aug 28, 2022)

SE Asia has a lack of pastors. Why not distribute the surplus to an unreached nation in Asia?

Not many Reformed pastors in the Middle East either. There is no need for a surplus when much of the world is unreached.

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## Edward (Aug 28, 2022)

Pergamum said:


> Why not distribute the surplus to an unreached nation in Asia?


Not all preachers are called to the foreign mission field. Some might not be able to take the privatations of Singapore when they could enjoy the urban lifestyle of Marfa Texas or the natural spendors of Detroit.

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## RamistThomist (Aug 28, 2022)

therussellhome said:


> @Chas Brewer - in the theme of your original question, have you looked at military chaplaincy? After 20+ years in the army guard and reserves, reformed chaplains were almost the mythical unicorns mentioned. Thanks be to God that the only 1 in all that time God provided during part of my last deployment.
> 
> @NaphtaliPress - wow! My PSC is still searching though I suspect their search is not quite so reformed . I'm praying for a unicorn of any color and trusting for God's provision in whoever He provides.



Even at 40 years old, the Navy tried to recruit me as a chaplain this summer when I was at General Assembly. That's just not where I am called, though.


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## Pilgrim (Aug 28, 2022)

For years I've heard that there are "too many" Reformed seminaries churning out too many graduates compared to the available pulpits. (There are more seminaries than there were 20-25 years ago, and way more than 40-50 years ago.)

But I saw something recently that indicated that most pastors are older and that when they retire in the next few years there will be a big shortage. So I don't know what to believe anymore. Enrollment is said to be down in many seminaries. It may have been about evangelical churches in general but I'm pretty sure I saw something about Reformed churches too.


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## Polanus1561 (Aug 28, 2022)

Pilgrim said:


> For years I've heard that there are "too many" Reformed seminaries churning out too many graduates compared to the available pulpits. (There are more seminaries than there were 20-25 years ago, and way more than 40-50 years ago.)
> 
> But I saw something recently that indicated that most pastors are older and that when they retire in the next few years there will be a big shortage. So I don't know what to believe anymore. Enrollment is said to be down in many seminaries. It may have been about evangelical churches in general but I'm pretty sure I saw something about Reformed churches too.


I don’t think enrolment is down for Reformed seminaries. And do consider that there are more foreign students at seminaries as the years go by. The rise of Reformed theology in Asia, Mexico, South America play a big part in this


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## Pilgrim (Aug 28, 2022)

John Yap said:


> I don’t think enrolment is down for Reformed seminaries. And do consider that there are more foreign students at seminaries as the years go by. The rise of Reformed theology in Asia, Mexico, South America play a big part in this


Then there is the online option that wasn't existent 20 years ago.

I do know a good many Reformed ministers in their 60s and 70s. But I'm not sure how much higher the percentage of that is now compared to a generation ago. My knowledge is merely anecdotal and limited to be sure.


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## ZackF (Aug 29, 2022)

I think the long-term prognosis is indeed bi-vocationalism or tent-making if you will. The Church is going to have to, out of necessity, be willing to call, accept and pay part-time pastors for much longer periods than has been usual. Whether or not the online seminary phenomenon is a net gain or loss, it no doubt has contributed to a large increase in pastoral candidates. Are we willing to entertain the thought that a man could readily prepare for the ministry with the expectation that he will make tents for many years? In some ways this financially less dependent pastoral base could be a benefit to the church in many areas. If the expectations are clear, men be more likely to accept callings in more remote pulpits- domestic and foreign.

Perg has already mentioned the global southeast. What about Europe? How many Europeans (or South Americans) over the years, even in major metropolitan areas, have dropped by the PB starved for any church that can remotely be considered bible believing? One that is not 200 miles away? I suppose training for a "secular" vocation in order to live/work elsewhere while tent-making is a tall order. However, if the church's hand is forced by a Providential reduction in full-time calls, why not?

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## Pergamum (Aug 30, 2022)

ZackF said:


> I think the long-term prognosis is indeed bi-vocationalism or tent-making if you will. The Church is going to have to, out of necessity, be willing to call, accept and pay part-time pastors for much longer periods than has been usual. Whether or not the online seminary phenomenon is a net gain or loss, it no doubt has contributed to a large increase in pastoral candidates. Are we willing to entertain the thought that a man could readily prepare for the ministry with the expectation that he will make tents for many years? In some ways this financially less dependent pastoral base could be a benefit to the church in many areas. If the expectations are clear, men be more likely to accept callings in more remote pulpits- domestic and foreign.
> 
> Perg has already mentioned the global southeast. What about Europe? How many Europeans (or South Americans) over the years, even in major metropolitan areas, have dropped by the PB starved for any church that can remotely be considered bible believing? One that is not 200 miles away? I suppose training for a "secular" vocation in order to live/work elsewhere while tent-making is a tall order. However, if the church's hand is forced by a Providential reduction in full-time calls, why not?


Precisely. It is not a "surplus" but a distribution problem. It is like saying that the Budweiser factory has a surplus of beer. The final product must be shipped far and wide.

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## ZackF (Aug 30, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> Even at 40 years old, the Navy tried to recruit me as a chaplain this summer when I was at General Assembly. That's just not where I am called, though.


So that military recruiting problem we here about is true. I wonder if they are quietly accepting 40yo sailor/soldier recruits?

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## SolaScriptura (Aug 30, 2022)

ZackF said:


> So that military recruiting problem we here about is true. I wonder if they are quietly accepting 40yo sailor/soldier recruits?


For a number of years now… max age has been 42.

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## ZackF (Aug 30, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> For a number of years now… max age has been 42.


Thank you for that information. How things have changed. That is interesting as a good friend of mine was 29 at 9/11/01. He was fired up and almost enlisted. I asked him if he was too old and he said the recruiter told him with a waiver he could be as old as 35. That was then!


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 31, 2022)

One of the things that hasn't been discussed is that the PCA tends to ordain men as Assistant Pastors that is not really Church Pastoral work. There are 6000 TE's in the PCA but a minority of them are Pastors elected by their congregation. 

If one is called to Pastoral ministry and is committed to Reformed Word and Sacrament, I think there will be opportunities for this. MTW (which has been mentioned) needs missionaries. Furthermore, I believe that (in the next decade) we're going to see a lot of Churches that followed the City Church model implode. Missional theology will run its course and Churches will either liberalize (like where Memorial in St. Louis is going) or they will close shop as they find their method burn out in a hostile culture.

Others have pointed out that it may be necessary to be bi-vocational and it's not a bad idea to develop a job skill that one can use if the place you are called cannot support a Pastor and his family.

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## Pilgrim (Sep 1, 2022)

ZackF said:


> Thank you for that information. How things have changed. That is interesting as a good friend of mine was 29 at 9/11/01. He was fired up and almost enlisted. I asked him if he was too old and he said the recruiter told him with a waiver he could be as old as 35. That was then!


I think I was told by a friend who enlisted that it was 37 about 15 years ago. He had enlisted at around that age and I couldn't believe that he was eligible, at least in peacetime. It looks like the age keeps creeping up. I want to say that with older recruits he told me that it was somewhat dependent on what they think you can do for them, that maybe they were more selective with 37 year olds than they were with 21 year olds. But I could be wrong. He has a college degree but I don't know if that made any difference.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 1, 2022)

On a Providential note, I just hung out with someone from Mission to North America last evening. He stated we have a lot of Pastors but not a lot who are planting Churches. There is a pretty wide "field" open to Church planting.

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## B.L. (Sep 1, 2022)

ZackF said:


> So that military recruiting problem we here about is true. I wonder if they are quietly accepting 40yo sailor/soldier recruits?





SolaScriptura said:


> For a number of years now… max age has been 42.





ZackF said:


> Thank you for that information. How things have changed. That is interesting as a good friend of mine was 29 at 9/11/01. He was fired up and almost enlisted. I asked him if he was too old and he said the recruiter told him with a waiver he could be as old as 35. That was then!





Pilgrim said:


> I think I was told by a friend who enlisted that it was 37 about 15 years ago. He had enlisted at around that age and I couldn't believe that he was eligible, at least in peacetime. It looks like the age keeps creeping up. I want to say that with older recruits he told me that it was somewhat dependent on what they think you can do for them, that maybe they were more selective with 37 year olds than they were with 21 year olds.



A friend of ours who is 41 years old and married with two teenagers recently joined the Virginia National Guard as an infantryman and is finishing up his training at Fort Benning now. I can't imagine going through that kind of training in my 40s surrounded by young men.


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## ZackF (Sep 1, 2022)

B.L. said:


> A friend of ours who is 41 years old and married with two teenagers recently joined the Virginia National Guard as an infantryman and is finishing up his training at Fort Benning now. I can't imagine going through that kind of training in my 40s surrounded by young men.


Look at the shape many _young_ men are in these days…


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## Edward (Sep 1, 2022)

ZackF said:


> How many Europeans (or South Americans) over the years, even in major metropolitan areas, have dropped by the PB starved for any church that can remotely be considered bible believing? One that is not 200 miles away?


The university town of Alpine Tx is about 165 miles from a reformed church. Marfa is 190 miles. You can get to some decent sized places in the US where it is over 100 miles. 



Semper Fidelis said:


> There is a pretty wide "field" open to Church planting.


But that takes a particular skill set.

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## Charles Johnson (Sep 1, 2022)

Edward said:


> The university town of Alpine Tx is about 165 miles from a reformed church. Marfa is 190 miles. You can get to some decent sized places in the US where it is over 100 miles.


See the entire upper peninsula of Michigan, which includes a few college towns.

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