# Recommendations for a Master's and PhD in Church History



## Greg Hitt (Jul 24, 2019)

I have become most interested in studying church history and the historical theories developed or employed. I have a BA in History in which much of the courses I took were early church and Baptist histor . I'm looking to re-enter the history worl . Any thoughts, advice, recommendations? 

I've heard many church historians mention to get good instruction in Patristic . I am a reformed Baptist, but am open to wherever is needed for good training in this area. Thanks!

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## Timotheos (Jul 24, 2019)

Why a PhD? 

{check signature rules}


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## Greg Hitt (Jul 24, 2019)

To teach at a seminary, university, public theology initiative, etc. Most require a PhD.


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## Romans922 (Jul 24, 2019)

Not sure about Master's but I'd recommend PhD work in Europe somewhere for Church History. I'd also start learning Latin, Greek, etc.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 24, 2019)

If you want to specialize in American church history, Yale is the gold standard.

While I have huge problems with James KA Smith's theology, his series on grad school should be required reading.
http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school-think.html
http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school.html



> So as you're contemplating which disciplinary portal you should pass through, ask yourself this question: Which 101 course would I be most happy teaching? While you're probably going to be dreaming about all the cool advanced seminars you'll be able to teach with majors, you need to keep in mind that your bread-and-butter is going to be teaching the introductory course in your discipline, the so-called "101" class. While you might find it hard to determine whether you're a philosopher, a theologian, or a literary critic, you do need to decide which introductory class you'd like to spend a lifetime teaching. Is it THEO 101 or PHIL 101 or ENGL 101?



I want to push back against something Smith said. He said if you went to Bodunk college you won't get into a good school. Maybe. I know a guy that went to Oral Roberts and then went to Oxford, so there's that.

http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school-money.html


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## Edward (Jul 25, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> I'd also start learning Latin, Greek, etc.


 I would probably throw in German, as well.

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## Timotheos (Jul 25, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> To teach at a seminary, university, public theology initiative, etc. Most require a PhD.


I know why one would get a PhD. I'm asking why *you *want to get a PhD. Do you have aspirations for teaching in higher ed. Have you counted the cost of $$$ and time? Have you considered the very few job opportunities? Is the investment worth the return?

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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2019)

Around the mid to late 2000s there was a glut on the market on PhDs. Are you going to teach at a cutting edge university? Yes? Then get your PhD from a cutting edge university. Are you going to teach at a seminary? Then you can probably get yours from a seminary.


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## iainduguid (Jul 25, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Around the mid to late 2000s there was a glut on the market on PhDs. Are you going to teach at a cutting edge university? Yes? Then get your PhD from a cutting edge university. Are you going to teach at a seminary? Then you can probably get yours from a seminary.


Maybe. But if you look at most good seminaries, the majority of their faculty have PhD's from cutting edge universities. There may be exceptions (like Systematic Theology or Apologetics), but those are the exception not the rule. And I say that as someone teaching at a seminary that has a PhD program...


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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2019)

iainduguid said:


> Maybe. But if you look at most good seminaries, the majority of their faculty have PhD's from cutting edge universities. There may be exceptions (like Systematic Theology or Apologetics), but those are the exception not the rule. And I say that as someone teaching at a seminary that has a PhD program...



I thought about that. I remember Mohler had hired a bunch of people who got their names from big universities. Some in Europe.


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## Hamalas (Jul 25, 2019)

If you're Reformed Baptist and want to study Patristics then this is easy: go study under Michael Haykin!

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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 25, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> Any thoughts, advice, recommendations?



Yes. 

But first, you are presumably looking to teach at a Christian College or Seminary. Am I right? What you describe leads in that direction. If you can clarify which (college or seminary), I have more to say afterwards. 

Peace,
Alan


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## bookslover (Jul 25, 2019)

Find out where Richard Muller lives. Then, offer to wax his car (do people still do that?), vacuum his house, or anything else he might want in order to listen to him talk about church history and historical theology. If you're interested in the post-Reformation era, he's pretty much the gold standard.

Oh, you'd probably better mow his lawn, too.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jul 25, 2019)

My advice is don't a PhD. It will make you less, not more employable. No matter how good your scholarship is, you have to deal with the reality that the Leftists pull most of the strings and their in-group preference is fierce. While some Christian and conservative people may continue to slip through the net, I would not get your hopes up for the time being.

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## Wayne (Jul 26, 2019)

Become an archivist instead. A Master's degree alone is sufficient. (a good program in archives is easier to find in a Canadian university). 

All the fun of research and none of the drudgery of teaching!


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## ZackF (Jul 26, 2019)

Edward said:


> I would probably throw in German, as well.


And French...


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## Greg Hitt (Jul 27, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Yes.
> 
> But first, you are presumably looking to teach at a Christian College or Seminary. Am I right? What you describe leads in that direction. If you can clarify which (college or seminary), I have more to say afterwards.
> 
> ...



Any reformed, reformed Baptist, conservative seminary. Any Christian university that is friendly toward the reformed.


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## Greg Hitt (Jul 27, 2019)

Hamalas said:


> If you're Reformed Baptist and want to study Patristics then this is easy: go study under Michael Haykin!



Yes, I see that it is possibly to do so at Southern Seminary. Looks like he also teaches Baptist history at Puritan Reformed Seminary.


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## ZackF (Jul 27, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> Any reformed, reformed Baptist, conservative seminary. Any Christian university that is friendly toward the reformed.


There is also the fact of really stiff competition. I had considered the academic path over two decades ago. The outlook was bleak then and much worse now. Brick and mortar university professorships are few and dwindling.

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## Greg Hitt (Jul 27, 2019)

ZackF said:


> There is also the fact of really stiff competition. I had considered the academic path over two decades ago. The outlook was bleak then and much worse now. Brick and mortar university professorships are few and dwindling.



Right. I'm tracking. This post is mostly informational in intent.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 27, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> Any reformed, reformed Baptist, conservative seminary. Any Christian university that is friendly toward the reformed.



Thanks, Greg. That's helpful.

Now that the focus is clear, I have an additional follow-up: I assume that if you wish to teach in a seminary that you would desire to do so in ordained ministry. Is that correct? I do not think that you should for a moment think about doing so otherwise.

Some have taught in seminary without ordination, but I see no proper warrant (biblically or historically) for doing so. If you are going to teach those who would be preachers and teachers in the church, you yourself should be such a preacher/teacher, in addition to whatever specialized knowledge you may have. More on this if this is seminary is your goal.

Teaching in a Christian college may be different. One might teach, say, in the history department of such without ordination, though those in the religion department, especially, may well be ordained.

At any rate, would it be your intention to pursue ordained ministry in this endeavor? This is a more important and previous question than whether to go for a Ph.D. If you're answer is "yes," many things come into view, including the need to go to seminary for an M.Div.

Peace,
Alan

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## Greg Hitt (Jul 28, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Thanks, Greg. That's helpful.
> 
> Now that the focus is clear, I have an additional follow-up: I assume that if you wish to teach in a seminary that you would desire to do so in ordained ministry. Is that correct? I do not think that you should for a moment think about doing so otherwise.
> 
> ...



I am interested in ordination as a teaching or preaching elder in the reformed Baptist church. I am considering MDiv programs and focused MA programs. For a good amount of church history and historical theology, would any program do or are there better options?


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## Timotheos (Jul 28, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> I am interested in ordination as a teaching or preaching elder in the reformed Baptist church. I am considering MDiv programs and focused MA programs. For a good amount of church history and historical theology, would any program do or are there better options?


Can I ask a frank but serious question? I had someone ask me this before I began my PhD (and after my ThM), and I am so thankful he did. 

Is it worth it for you and for the church ministry you will potentially have to pay the money and do the work (which is massive!) and sacrifice the family time (which is a precious sacrifice!!!) and perhaps by God's providence NOT get a job in seminary or college? If yes, then I will offer some advice based on my own experience as I am an advocate for a scholar/theologian/pastor model. And I find that the best explainers of theology are historical theologians. But I'm a biblical studies guy. So what do I know?

If you want a thoroughly RB route, IRBS for your MDiv which transfers into PRTS for a PhD. If I was your QB, that is the route I'd tell you to run.


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## Greg Hitt (Jul 28, 2019)

Timotheos said:


> Can I ask a frank but serious question? I had someone ask me this before I began my PhD (and after my ThM), and I am so thankful he did.
> 
> Is it worth it for you and for the church ministry you will potentially have to pay the money and do the work (which is massive!) and sacrifice the family time (which is a precious sacrifice!!!) and perhaps by God's providence NOT get a job in seminary or college? If yes, then I will offer some advice based on my own experience as I am an advocate for a scholar/theologian/pastor model. And I find that the best explainers of theology are historical theologians. But I'm a biblical studies guy. So what do I know?
> 
> If you want a thoroughly RB route, IRBS for your MDiv which transfers into PRTS for a PhD. If I was your QB, that is the route I'd tell you to run.



Yes. 

I would love to go to IRBSTS. However, they are resident only, so far. I would have to move to Texas to attend, and I can't do that now. Family and full time job, plus we just bought a house. I thought about going to New Geneva Theological Seminary here in Colorado Springs, but they're not accredited yet. Then again, neither is IRBS. Most seminaries require an accredited MDIV these days from my understanding.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 29, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> I am interested in ordination as a teaching or preaching elder in the reformed Baptist church. I am considering MDiv programs and focused MA programs. For a good amount of church history and historical theology, would any program do or are there better options?



It took a little while but I see that we've arrived! You want to be an ordained minister teaching seminarians church history and historical theology, and you are thus inquiring about advanced degrees in those areas (up to the Ph.D.). 

You need first of all to attend to the question of call, the internal and external call. In this you need to submit yourselves to the governors of your church (the one in which you desire to labor) and receive their assessments as to whether you have the gifts for ministry, the gifts for teaching those who would be ministers, etc. 

The path that you propose to embark upon, Greg, is one upon which I embarked decades ago. In it all, I never did a single thing, not one single thing, that I was not asked to do. I think that this is the way that you should go about your life in this regard. 

I was urged to go into ministry by my church. I didn't think myself fit. I was called into the pastorate and there came into service in a variety of ways in which I became quite active, yet was always asked to do so. Same with teaching in seminary and all that followed. 

Don't get me wrong. I've been eager to serve and have stepped up many times. But it's never been a matter of me deciding in my head off to myself what I wanted to do and announcing it to others and seeking to get the church to support my plans. Rather the church has asked me to do what it is that I do. 

I say all of this not to discourage you a whit, but to encourage you to follow the path that will bring blessing to you and all to whom you minister. It's good to have desires to serve. It should be done, however, truly in subjection to your brethren in the Lord who want you in this service and place you in it. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Steve Curtis (Jul 29, 2019)

Greg, I am not sure that this comports with Alan's counsel, but I do think it wholly appropriate for you to initiate the conversation. That is, you may certainly approach your pastor/elders and inform him/them of the internal call that you believe to have received and humbly ask that they assess and advise.

Likewise, along the path of your life and ministry (if, indeed, your call is confirmed), I do not advise a wholly passive posture. We must always operate within the ordained order of the church, to be sure, but that doesn't always mean that we sit idly by, waiting for others to urge us onward. The history of the church - particularly her history of missions - is replete with men who were, for all intents and purposes, trailblazers. Again, we must seek confirmation of the "trail" we wish to "blaze," but we need not wait for someone to push us in that direction!


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 29, 2019)

kainos01 said:


> That is, you may certainly approach your pastor/elders and inform him/them of the internal call that you believe to have received and humbly ask that they assess and advise.



Steve:

I don't disagree with a word of this. 

But that's rather different from what I commonly hear today. One should perhaps not be asking about Ph.D.s when he's not even in ministry, never mind teaching in a seminary. 

In my position, I run into this a lot. I think it better to take it one step at a time in terms of what one should be doing in ministry. Submit yourself to the church and let them make a test of your gifts. Get an M.Div. and seek a pastoral call with the support of the church. In this process, perhaps after serving for some time in the pastorate, do you have the aptitude (and let's be plain, the ability) for a Ph.D. and a good place to put it to use? Does a seminary want you to teach there and perhaps support you in the pursuit of a Ph.D.?

I find too many men having all these ambitions for "getting a Ph.D. and teaching" in the church and like institutions without any corresponding affirmation and no real prospect of seminary teaching. This is what I am addressing. I encounter it all the time. I want to encourage men to bring all their desires for service to the church and let the church determine whether it really wants those men in that service. 

I do not counsel passivity, either in one's Christian life or vocation. I do counsel men who say that they want a Ph.D. and to teach (in seminary) to submit themselves to their brethren in the Lord. Does the church want this man in its service? Does the church want this man teaching her preachers? And many like questions.

So not passivity. But also not entrepreneuralism. Save that for business, which the church is decidedly not. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Timotheos (Jul 29, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> Yes.
> 
> I would love to go to IRBSTS. However, they are resident only, so far. I would have to move to Texas to attend, and I can't do that now. Family and full time job, plus we just bought a house. I thought about going to New Geneva Theological Seminary here in Colorado Springs, but they're not accredited yet. Then again, neither is IRBS. Most seminaries require an accredited MDIV these days from my understanding.


Accreditation aside (b/c I believe IRBS is moving in that direction), one of the benefits of ARTS validation is that should be sufficient to move from NGTS to PRTS (also w/ ARTS I believe). But if you can't move for your masters, how will you do a PhD? There are some distance options, but it takes a special kind of person to do that self-disciplined study option. 

Also, accreditation isn't a deal-breaker for some programs. I believe that between the MDiv and the PhD, a ThM should be a necessary prerequisite. Therefore, you could likely get your MDiv and find an accredited ThM which is where you'll find if you have the academic chops to go on further. I'll put it this way, if you can't get parts of your thesis published, then that is a sign that maybe a PhD is not the path you should take. 

Given all of that, what Alan has stated above is of tremendous importance.


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## Steve Curtis (Jul 29, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I do counsel men who say that they want a Ph.D. and to teach (in seminary) to submit themselves to their brethren in the Lord.



I think that we are on the same page, then. Whenever I am assigned a prospective PhD student, I always begin with similar counsel. I likewise do not want to encourage them to get the cart before the horse. However, I do not oppose a "long view" of what one thinks God may be calling him toward, provided he is willing to correct that course as needed, especially as guidance from the church dictates. Your biographical sketch seemed (to me, at least, and apparently erroneously) to suggest a certain passivity. Forgive me for interpreting it wrongly.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 29, 2019)

kainos01 said:


> Forgive me for interpreting it wrongly.



Oh, no, we're just having a discussion. We have to clarify things and I see why you could read what I said that way. Anyone who knows me, however, would not associate passivity with me!

I agree that some are pioneers and trail-blazers, as long as that's appropriately situated and defined. But saying "India has no gospel witness and I want to give it one" is something quite different from saying, "Though I am not yet ordained in the church, I want to get a Ph.D. and train her ministers." Perhaps this is what one should be doing in the church, perhaps not. 

In either case (missionary or seminary prof.), one should look to the church for guidance. Someone in the foreign or home missionary context may find the church out of touch or sluggish and need to be quite assertive. That doesn't really work in the seminary professor context. One can't force oneself into the classroom, Ph.D. or no. One step at a time, long-term goals lightly held. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Edward (Jul 29, 2019)

Greg Hitt said:


> Most seminaries require an accredited MDIV these days from my understanding.



If you want to get a Ph.D. you can hope will work in an academic setting, you need to make sure all of your degrees are from name-brand accredited institutions. And don't go near a theologically pure echo chamber.


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