# Toddlers during preaching



## (^^)Regin

Hello Everyone,

I would like to get your consensus regarding having toddlers during the preaching of God's Word. 


If you were the one with toddler, would you insist having child during the preaching, believing in faith that God is working in the child regardless of his or her behavior and comprehension.


Or would you consider to bring the child away from the sanctuary to allow your brothers and sisters to hear and understand what is being preached.



Your insights are highly appreciated.


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## dyarashus

You need some other choices there.

Families being together during the preaching of God's word should be considered normative. This doesn't happen by accident ... it takes training, and that takes practice and patience. The DfPW offers guidelines of behavior in public worship that include "... the people are wholly to attend upon it ... abstaining much more from all ... indecent behavior, which may disturb the minister or people, or hinder themselves or others in the service of God."

Therefore, there are adequate grounds in the standards to make it clear that a toddler who is excessively disruptive should be removed from the service. For that matter, an adult who is disruptive is in the same category.

On the other hand, this is an area where some need to work on their charity. The Son of God admitted little children into his presence, embracing them and blessing them, and we should do no less. A baby may make some baby noises without being excessively disruptive, just as an adult may sneeze or make some other involuntary noises that are reasonably tolerated. Congregations and pastors deal with various levels of distractions differently ... I've heard good sermons preached over snoring old men and over crying babies, and I've seen families seriously offended when they were rebuked from the pulpit for allowing a child to distract a minister (when the distraction seemed slight indeed to me).

If a distraction is such that it reasonably and significantly disturbs the service, it should be dealt with. A child refusing to obey, for example, and throwing some sort of tantrum should be abundantly clear as intolerable in the service for several reasons. A little baby making a brief, quickly satisfied cry for milk, however, is well within what should be tolerated.

In short, I argue that children should be in the service during the preaching regardless of their comprehension -- which will grow over time, but not regardless of their behavior, which needs to meet reasonable minimum standards so as not to create an undue burden on the other members of the congregation or their minister.


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## (^^)Regin

*Thanks*

dyarashus, 

thank you for your reply, I highly appreciate your points. 

I hope others will respond as well unless everything that needs to be said is said.


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## Brian Withnell

(^^)Regin said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I would like to get your consensus regarding having toddlers during the preaching of God's Word.
> 
> 
> If you were the one with toddler, would you insist having child during the preaching, believing in faith that God is working in the child regardless of his or her behavior and comprehension.
> 
> 
> Or would you consider to bring the child away from the sanctuary to allow your brothers and sisters to hear and understand what is being preached.
> 
> 
> 
> Your insights are highly appreciated.



The scriptural position is "suffer the little children to come onto me, and forbid them not."

It isn't a parents choice for the most part. While I can see that some parents prefer to not have their children in the service (it is far more disruptive to the parents than to anyone else, I assure you) it is not Biblical to spirit the children off to somewhere else. Those children are a blessing from the Lord, and they are a blessing to the entire church, and if they are not so disruptive that the pastor would not be able to preach, then they ought be in the hearing of the word of God. I have never complained or thought that a baby crying ought to be taken out of a worship service. I know some mothers do leave in order to nurse their babies in private, but we are worshipping God, and not in a teaching seminar. God is glorified by children being in the worship service, and it is God that is the "audience" to the worship, not the people.

While I hope this does not come across as abrasive, I truly believe our society in general, and even some churches, have lost sight of the fact that children are supposed to be in worship. And yes, that means that worship will not be silent all the time.


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## (^^)Regin

Brian, 

thank you for the post I appreciate your points as well. 

I still welcome any insights


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## Tim

Even if a toddler might struggle to understand a preached concept that is rather abstract, there are always parts of the sermon that they can understand and contemplate. Let us take an example of a pastor is preaching on the life of Joseph in the book of Genesis. A toddler may not be able to comprehend the fullness of the doctrine of providence, however, he can understand simple things like "Joseph's brothers were mean to him" and "Joseph was a very important man in Egypt. He sold grain to people who didn't have any food". Items like this set the stage for a toddler to grow in his ability to study and understand the Bible. 

The pastor at my home church in Canada makes use of lunchtime on the Lord's Day to ask questions to his children about his sermon. I remember observing this for the first time. What I saw was that his youngest son at the time, who had not yet turned 3 years old, was able to answer a simple question about the sermon. This told me two things: 1) if trained properly, a 2 year old can listen; and 2) there is always some simple concept or fact that a toddler can understand. 

At the very, very least, a young child will understand that he is being included, that the man in the pulpit is saying important things, and that this is a very special thing that the family does every week.


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## Repre5entYHWH

i came from a church that had a huge nursery and it was weird to allow kids in service it was nice that we didn't have to deal with our daughter durring that time and we got to hear the sermon, then i switched to RCUS who encouraged me to have my daughter in service, it's hard (shes only 20 months) shes very loud and very we have to take her out for a whoopin at least 4 times a service we hardly get to hear any of the sermon. 

although it maybe hard i wouldn't have it any other way, in the covenantal community i already see the care of the congregation toward my child and the fruit that has come from it. 

funny story: the pastor was talking about our selfishness and comparing it to the seagulls in finding nemo "mine mine" right then i took something away from my daughter and she scram "MINE!!" very embarrassing... (but funny)


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## CatherineL

Repre5entYHWH said:


> funny story: the pastor was talking about our selfishness and comparing it to the seagulls in finding nemo "mine mine" right then i took something away from my daughter and she scram "MINE!!" very embarrassing... (but funny)



LOL, at least you know she was listening!

My church has no nursery at the moment - just a room with a monitor so you can hear the service, and some toys. It serves as the nursing mom/screaming toddler room. I actually find this a pretty nice set up, although several visiting families have not joined because of the lack of nursery. 

Not sure from the OP if you just wanted opinions or if you're looking for advice dealing with toddlers in the service. If not, please disregard the following.  Ok, some babies are generally laid back and can be in the service without making too much noise. I have friends who have these kinds of kids, so I know they exist, but the Lord has not decided to give me any so far. What I've found is that by 3 years even the most excitable child can be taught to sit and be generally still and quiet during worship. This takes training at home, not just once a week at church. We - and I know some other families on the PB - use family worship time as a good training time. I will also do "quiet sit time" throughout the day while I school my older child or when things are just a bit too crazy and I want to take it down a notch. My just turned 3 year old had pretty much mastered this by 2.5 years, but I would sometimes take her out when I took my youngest out, just so my husband would only have one to look after.

That said, I also have an 18 month old who is also pretty high energy. We do sit time with him too, but 15 minutes is about his tops, and that only covers the scripture reading and *maybe* the prayer of confession. I generally don't keep him in the service the whole time. Usually about 10 minutes into the sermon he's pretty restless so I retreat to the nursery room and let him toddle around while I listen to the sermon. I want my kids to be in the service as early as possible, but the fact is that lots of people are very distracted by a toddler babbling, even if not crying unhappily. Our church isn't officially Family Integrated, so I choose to leave the service since there's a reasonable alternative.


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## au5t1n

We had a very similar thread only a month or so ago, if you're interested in reading it or maybe even reviving it. http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/families-corporate-worship-53121/


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## Soonerborn

We have a 6 year old, 4 year old, 2 year old, and 2 month old. 

Since the birth of our first child, we have always had our children in worship with us. Our church does not have nursery during worship for children over the age of 2. 

I admit it is very hard work to get the children to sit quietly and participate. The easy thing would be to put them in the nursery but I really feel like they need to sit under the preached word and paticipate in worship weekly, just like I need to. The have been marked with the sign of the covenant, so they should participate in the gathering of the covenant community. 

Our primary mode of training is nightly family worship. We sit on our couch exactly like we do in the pew - ie seating arrangements are the same. We have about a 15 minute time of praying, reading scripture, and singing each night. For the most part, our 6 year old and 4 year old does good - have to shush them occaisonally. The 2 year old sits on my lap only. He is so wiggly but I hold him tightly and if he gets out of control, I excuse myself and discipline him. 

I must say though that every child has a different temperment when they are very small. What I have found for most of our children is that they are ready to sit through all the service when they are about 20 months or so. Prior to that, the make it for about 15-20 minutes or so and I have to take them to the back or listen to the sermon in the library with them. 


This regular time of family worship I believe really prepares and trains them for corporate worship. On the practical side, it trains them to sit still and participate in worship. At dinner time, I also try to "encourage" them to sit still during eating and I think this nightly practice may also help train them to sit still. By no means do I think I am doing everything right. We often have "melt downs" - if you know what I mean. I pray God is redeeming our efforts to train our children. 

Regarding the preached word, I pray that God is opening their hearts to receive the word. Often, my 6 and 4 year old will make comments after church about some point the pastor made so I pray that God is allowing them to "hear" the word.


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## Tripel

It is ideal that your whole family is together during public worship, but I think a nursery is beneficial and appropriate in many cases. As Mike mentioned, every child is different. There is a massive difference between the abilities of my two children to sit still. My daughter (almost 3) is highly active, and it has required a lot of patience on our part. We just recently have gotten her to sit through the church service, but it took over 2.5 years. Most of that time she was in the nursery, because I would rather wait until she is physically able to sit quietly than to spank her several times each week for the first 2.5 years of her life.


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## MMasztal

The churches I have attended have "cry rooms" which is a room at the rear of the sanctuary with double paned glass for sound isolation and a loudspeaker so the parent can still watch and hear the service/sermon without disturbing the other people present.


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## puritanpilgrim

I am having a really difficult time with this. Sunday and wednesday night my church does not have nursery. I have a four year old, two year old and a one year old. And we have another due in March. This isn't a "family integrated church" either. My son has gone to the service since he was three, but he still gets at least one spanking every sunday, some weeks he has received more than I care to put in print. Honestly, I don't get a whole lot out of church these two nights. We do family worship every day except sunday and wednesday. And lately I've been reading two chapters strait to my children just to work on their ability to sit down and be quiet. We also do catacism and memory verses. That is close to thirty minutes they have to sit. I think if I went to a church where many people brought their kids into the service it would be easier, but I'm the only one with kids who come into the service at these times. Although I think it is good for my four year old. He's old enough to do it, I don't know what the others really get out of it. And I can't imagine many people would bother to put up with what I have done for the past year. My two year old has no idea what is going on, and after 30 minutes she get loud. My one year old won't stop trying to preach unless I stand up and walk her around. I'm still new to having kids. And I'm sure this may get easier after I have done it once. But, I spend a lot of time dealing with my kids during the church service. Much more time doing that, than listening to the service. I remember the days when I would sing and sit down and listen to the sermon. I starting to think I may not have that experience for many years to come.


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## Jon Peters

Benadryl.


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## CatherineL

This is the scary thing: Benadryl makes my children *more* hyper.


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## KMK

At our church all children sit with the parents, not because of any moral conviction but because we don't have anywhere else to put them. I know this intimidates visiting families and we would be a bigger church if we did have some kind of nursery or cry room.

I will say this, however, that we do not have any problems having children with us for the sermon. I don't really understand the mentality that children necessarily cause a distraction any more than some adults.


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## CatherineL

Raising Godly Tomatoes

This article was helpful to me when I first started training little ones to sit in church. It might be what you all are already doing, but posting it just in case it might help.

I think you're right Aaron - most people are not at all interested in little ones being in the service that early. A lot of people don't even think its possible for a 4 year old to sit and be attentive, so of course think its ridiculous to expect a 2 year old. We're in a similar situation with our kids' ages - we actually have stopped doing the Sunday evening community groups for that reason - I wasn't benefiting from the adult discussion time since I just spent the whole time juggling kids, and my husband didn't want us to go if not as a whole family. We're also one of the few families in our church with little ones, and the only ones with so many under 5.


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## Peairtach

Keep plying them with sweeties.


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## Jon Peters

We are in the process of training our fourth. My first three (9,8, and 7) are pretty good. They don't make much noise and generally sit still. I can listen to the whole sermon and participate in all of worship. The task now that my older ones can sit through church is to get them to pay attention. The training never stops.

Although my first three were tough to train, my fourth and youngest (2 yrs old) is by far the toughest. He will be quiet and still until we get to the pew. Some of this may have to do with our parenting style (it's changed over the course of four kids), but also, he is just an active kid. My oldest was (and is) quite active and was tough, but this new guy, boy oh boy!

I think that much of the advice given thus far has been very good. Family worship should be your training ground. Cry rooms are great. I encourage the use of them when the child becomes too distracting in church. Make sure he/she has to sit and obey even in the cry room.

Finally, there is no "one size fits all" model of training. Be flexible and don't be legalistic about methods. And try not to stress yourself out. Your kids will learn eventually.

-----Added 10/16/2009 at 02:06:36 EST-----



Richard Tallach said:


> Keep plying them with sweeties.



We used to come fully stocked with food, drink, books, etc. We found that all of these items just made things worse. Now we being a sippy cup of water and maybe some goldfish or something. We do allow a hotwheel or something like that, but that can be distracting as well. My youngest threw his hotwheel into the aisle last week twice.


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## CatherineL

-----Added 10/16/2009 at 02:06:36 EST-----



Richard Tallach said:


> Keep plying them with sweeties.



[/QUOTE] We used to come fully stocked with food, drink, books, etc. We found that all of these items just made things worse. Now we being a sippy cup of water and maybe some goldfish or something. We do allow a hotwheel or something like that, but that can be distracting as well. My youngest threw his hotwheel into the aisle last week twice.[/QUOTE]

Our experience has been similar. Also, apparently many older (without little children at least people at our church are very irritated by the sound of children eating. At least, a friend of mine whose 3 year old was munching cheerios during the service and got an earful about it from an older woman sitting in front of her. So, even if the food keeps them quiet, some people will still be distracted. Its almost enough to make you want to home church sometimes.


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## Megan Mozart

Thanks to everyone for your input. I just love reading these threads about parenting. I have no children myself so I feel so blessed to read the wisdom of so many in order to help prepare for parenthood someday, Lord willing.


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## HokieAirman

> At least, a friend of mine whose 3 year old was munching cheerios during the service and got an earful about it from an older woman sitting in front of her.



This probably isn't very charitable, but the lady probably should have kept her mouth shut and sat somewhere else next week...your poor friend probably has enough to deal with without people chastising her! Munching Cheerios is much better than other bodily sounds she could have been making!

My 2 yr old still has to be taken out of the service from time to time and we were very nervous moving from a 100% family integrated church to one that offers a nursery. I believe it is best to keep the children in the service. If Charlie has to be taken out and disciplined, the goal is to always bring him back into the service. Lately, it only takes once and he's an angel the rest of the time...and believe me...he's a live wire every other waking hour! 

A dear friend suggested that I 'preach' during family worship while mom was holding him, in order to prepare him for church. For that to work, however, family worship becomes more of a training ground than an edifying time of worship.

Another suggestion was for the mother to handle the discipline of the children during the worship service and for the father to take notes on the sermon and relay it to his wife later. This never quite worked for us because of my short attention span!


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## Brian Withnell

CatherineL said:


> At least, a friend of mine whose 3 year old was munching cheerios during the service and got an earful about it from an older woman sitting in front of her. So, even if the food keeps them quiet, some people will still be distracted. Its almost enough to make you want to home church sometimes.



I'm glad I wasn't around. I would have hopefully gently told the older woman that her response was offensive to me because she was putting her own "edification" from the worship of God ahead of the body of Christ. If the older woman had been kind, and helpful in helping instruct the child, quietly so as not to embarrass the parents, then I would commend them (if it was done with gentleness and kindness as a 3 year old would need). Giving the 3 year-old "an earful" was more along the lines of making sure your friend got the "earful" rather than the child. The woman needs to see that the service does not exist for individuals to be edified, but for the body to worship. If she was distracted, then she should have all the more asked God for the grace to worship him properly. Worship is what we are to do in all our lives ... if we cannot worship without distraction, then we are not worshipping but a very small part of our lives.

It is true that the corporate worship is a special time, but insisting that it is a time for adults and older children that can remain quite to worship means that it is not the whole body that worships. While my earlier post I wanted to emphasize that parents ought to bring their children to worship as a duty, here I would emphasize that the whole of the congregation should make sure they do not think they are the central figure of worship to exclude children. Those without children often would rather there not be any sounds from children, but that is not what the Bible teaches. It even promotes the idea of children talking and asking questions during the passover (Exo 12:26). Children are not "to be seen and not heard" but are to be present during the service, and they should be encouraged to ask questions.

An older woman you would hope would have a sense of charity toward the parents. While the woman was talking to the child, I'd be very surprised if the words where not chosen to impact the mother (otherwise the mother would never have heard them).


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## Caroline

I think that, to the extent possible, people should avoid spanking children for not sitting still in church. It makes kids dread going to church and associate it with punishment. Some toddlers aren't really mentally capable of the type of self-control required to sit still for an hour, and it's torture for both the parent and child to expect it. I really like the cry-room with the sermon piped in over the speaker. The problem (if I may voice a personal pet-peeve) is that people will go back there and TALK during the sermon, which really defeats the purpose of the speaker system in the cry room ...

Around school-age, though, I think kids should be included in the service. But no one would expect a toddler to go to college and sit through Chemistry 101 quietly, and I don't know why they expect them to sit still in church, and I think parents should have another option available (for one thing, what if the kid is autistic? or what if someone has a foster child with fetal alcohol syndrome?)

I do think people should be VERY reluctant to rebuke ANYONE from the pulpit, unless the kid is setting fires or something. That's a fast-track to encouraging people with small or disabled children not to go to church at all, if they know they risk being publicly humiliated. 

As for people complaining about kids munching Cheerios... really, the complainer should sit somewhere else if it bothers them that much. People pick on kids for being 'distracting' because they are easy targets, but really, old folks can be almost as distracting. There's a guy who used to go to my church who cleaned out his ear with his finger quite thoroughly during every sermon--dig, inspect, chew, dig, inspect ... That was pretty distracting.


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## Carolyn

We had our children in the service with us from the beginning. We brought a bag with things in it. I think there were Cheerios for awhile, but I don't remember anymore. As the children grew, they were required to set aside their "thing" for more and more of the service. The bag stayed at home when the youngest was starting Kindergarten. They always had to set aside their "thing" for prayers.

We did not get much out of services for a number of years. There were other things we missed as well. We missed all of the 90's in terms of movies, music, and most television shows. We had no vacations except to visit family. We ate in very few restaurants, including McDonald's. 

In 2009, it makes no difference we missed those things. The guys are 20 and 22 now and attend church willingly and quietly! We're probably better off having missed Nirvana and Seinfeld, and most of the sermons from the one church we attended.

The next thread should be, "How to keep teenagers awake and alert in church when they have Saturday night closing jobs!" 

Patience and Perseverance! Time is going to take care of so much of this.


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## TimV

If a kid is old enough to be walk, the kid is old enough to be spanked. The first two Reformed churches I attended in California were that way, as well as all the Afrikaans churches I attended in South Africa. The whole family stays in church. If a baby cries, he's taken out and comforted as to no bother the service. If a toddler misbehaves, he's taken out and spanked, just like if it were in his room at home. Whole churches, large churches where there were hardly any distractions, and the kids usually join when they are older.

Now days kids do whatever they want, and parents angrily assume their kids have a right to bad behavior. All seven of my kids attend church of their own free will (two I do not believe are saved) and they were spanked from the time they were toddlers, and all sat still during church, even when the service was too long. That was the rule in Reformed churches from the start and it makes me sick to see what American Christian society as come to. *If you don't spank your son you hate him*.


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## (^^)Regin

Hello Everyone,

I highly appreciate all your post regarding this matter. It is very good for me to see perspective from different people and It gives me encouragement to see you all posting your response(s).

Thank you,


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## SolaScriptura

I expect to be thoroughly attacked, but here goes:

I roll my eyes whenever I attend a church that lauds itself for being "family integrated," er, Biblical, when as the sermon starts - if not much sooner, sometimes as soon as we are told to be seated after the invocation! - multiple kids turn around in their seats, mothers pull out boxes of crayons and notepads from their purses or diaper bags and the kids spend the rest of the service using their seat as a table on which they just draw pictures. This, in addition to the occasional "mommy, look at what I drew!" and I literally will not accept the proposition that these kids are getting anything from the sermon, at least not anything that is substantive enough to justify the distraction they cause to others, not least their own parents. I've been to several good churches who used that time to actually teach my children at their level and they came home having actually learned. Wanna know how I got into catechesis? The Baptist church we attended did it with the kids during children's church - and they did it very well - and my kids were learning the catechism and I was amazed at how much truth they were learning. Prior to that point I had never heard of catechesis.

I loathe the idea that the kids in some congregations are literally prohibited from the sanctuary, but I almost equally deplore the pressure placed upon parents in other churches to keep them in the sanctuary during the service. In my estimation, it should be the parents' choice.

I utterly and completely and absolutely reject the notion that Jesus letting kids sit on his lap while he blessed them, and that his words of rebuke to his disciples for attempting to keep those children away while Jesus was in a crowd, necessarily constitute a "biblical requirement" that we MUST keep the kids in the sanctuary during worship service. I reference the Baptist church which catechized my children - they most certainly didn't keep them from Christ. Some here seem to be so worried about the spiritual "edification" that a toddler can supposedly draw from a sermon that they forget that they should be worried about the edification of older attendees as well.

*At the end of the day, here is my counsel to parents:* 

Don't let anyone here make you think your conscience is bound by theirs, no matter how piously they argue. If you want your kids in the sanctuary no matter what, and if you think that is the way it should be, then seek out that kind of church.

However...

If you are finding that you almost dread public worship because you end up spending your time playing sheriff rather than being able to worship and each Lord's Day is traumatic for you and your kids... To you I say - YOU need to be able to worship, and YOU need to take care of your own soul (not merely your child's). If you are finding that you WANT to put your kids in a nursery but can't in your current context... talk to your elders about it. If they refuse to budge, find another church. (! Yep, I said it.) 

I'm very careful to remind myself of this truth: It is possible to literally beat your kids into compliance. That is, you CAN spank your kids to the point that they will sit still in the worship service. But that doesn't mean anything beyond the fact that they have learned to fear your lash. REMEMBER: As I survey the history of Christianity, I see that the "historic model" (if that is what it can be called) of keeping children in the service is literally no more effective at passing on serious Christianity to multiple generations than is the model that is based upon an awareness of different types of learning and teaching styles being effective for different ages.

There are good nurseries and there are bad ones, find a good one. For instance, I encourage everyone who can to go visit Bethlehem Baptist Church (Piper's church). There they take their ministry to the children very seriously and I think it would serve as a model for me should I ever plant a church.


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## Bern

> Repre5entYHWH:funny story: the pastor was talking about our selfishness and comparing it to the seagulls in finding nemo "mine mine" right then i took something away from my daughter and she scram "MINE!!" very embarrassing... (but funny)



I always thought the seagulls were saying "mate", because they're Australian!


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## Caroline

TimV said:


> If a kid is old enough to be walk, the kid is old enough to be spanked. The first two Reformed churches I attended in California were that way, as well as all the Afrikaans churches I attended in South Africa. The whole family stays in church. If a baby cries, he's taken out and comforted as to no bother the service. If a toddler misbehaves, he's taken out and spanked, just like if it were in his room at home. Whole churches, large churches where there were hardly any distractions, and the kids usually join when they are older.
> 
> Now days kids do whatever they want, and parents angrily assume their kids have a right to bad behavior. All seven of my kids attend church of their own free will (two I do not believe are saved) and they were spanked from the time they were toddlers, and all sat still during church, even when the service was too long. That was the rule in Reformed churches from the start and it makes me sick to see what American Christian society as come to. *If you don't spank your son you hate him*.



Tim, I don't think anyone said anything about not spanking a child at all. I said I prefer not to spank them for not sitting still in church when they are toddlers. It's an odd thing about discussing discipline that people sometimes see it as having no middle ground ... people either can smack their kids for any reason, or not at all. Discipline is a matter of wisdom.

My argument would be that some here say that they spank their children every Lord's Day at least once for not sitting still. This strongly implies that it is not working, because despite being repeated again and again, it has to be repeated again the next time. And, let's face it, if you were slapped every time you attended church, wouldn't you start to dread going?

My kids have never been spanked for failing to sit still, and my thirteen-year-old son and my ten-year-old daughter both sit quietly through the whole service and are very well behaved, even though my son is autistic (my three-year-old still likes to go to the cry-room). It's often a matter of maturity as much as anything else.

I Cor 13: Love is patient ...it is not easily provoked.


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## Jack K

If I were only spending only one hour a week at church, in a worship service, I would want to do that as a family. The family should worship together and the church body should gather as one. But I don't see why we can't also spend more time, in Sunday school hours, second services or the like where we're separated, the adults learning or praying free from distraction, and the kids getting something particularly well fit to their age level.


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## TimV

Hi Caroline. My post wasn't aimed at you. Just general observations having been a part of the Reformed scene for over a quarter century in various countries and cultural settings.

Best, and I'm sure you're a great mom!


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## Brian Withnell

SolaScriptura said:


> I expect to be thoroughly attacked, but here goes:
> 
> I literally will not accept the proposition that these kids are getting anything from the sermon, at least not anything that is substantive enough to justify the distraction they cause to others, not least their own parents.



This is not intended as attack, but I would suggest that you have a misconception of what a worship service is. It is not for you, or anyone else in the congregation to "get anything" it is for you and others to give to God what he commands. Worship is given only to God, and it is not what children "get" or what you "get" that matters. Worship is supposed to be centered on God and what we give him. While there is benefit to us, the purpose is to give. While we might have benefit of true grace in hearing the word, in sharing in the Lord's supper, in the prayers offered, and many other things, those are just peripheral to the corporate worship of God. The corporate worship of God by his people is not for his people in the sense of it being our "due" but it is what we give to God.

Therefore, arguing that there are distractions, that children make noise, that the air conditioning is not working, that the heat is broken, that the piano is not properly tuned, that the seats are not comfortable or anything else that is man centered just isn't going to have me put much stock in the complaint.

Going to a play, or concert? Sure, only those that know how to behave ought to be in the audience. But the audience in the worship of God is God, not us. And all those that are worshipping only worship acceptably because of the work of Christ. The filthy rags that I present in worship is not different qualitatively from the worship of a child, even one that is crying. They are covenant members of the church. They worship God, through the blood of Christ, just as acceptably as we.

If God is the one that receives worship, our hearing the word is an element, yes, but even in that, it is not a teaching seminar. Preaching is not teaching, otherwise we would have the sermon with a blackboard and we would be taking notes and there would be tests at the end of every service.

You are correct in one thing. No binding of the liberty can occur unless it occurs through the word or by other Biblical authority (we are free from the commands of men in anything contrary to the word, or beside it in matters of faith and worship). So the question is does God require worship by children, and if so, when.


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## SolaScriptura

Brian Withnell said:


> This is not intended as attack, but I would suggest that you have a misconception of what a worship service is. It is not for you, or anyone else in the congregation to "get anything" it is for you and others to give to God what he commands.



This is not true. Well, perhaps it is not totally incorrect, just more like a pious sounding overstatment. Why then is there teaching? Why does God meet us in the sacraments? To say that a public worship service is _only_ to give something to God is simply wrong. If we aren't supposed to get anything out of the service, why bother taking notes... heck, why even make the Reformation era stink about the service being in an intelligible language? God centered, God oriented, yes. But God loves His people and meets with and admonishes, convicts, encourages, teaches, reminds, and blesses His people during worship. This is what we "get" in worship.... _when we [are able to!] pay attention._


----------



## Amazing Grace

Brian Withnell said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> I expect to be thoroughly attacked, but here goes:
> 
> I literally will not accept the proposition that these kids are getting anything from the sermon, at least not anything that is substantive enough to justify the distraction they cause to others, not least their own parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not intended as attack, but I would suggest that you have a misconception of what a worship service is. It is not for you, or anyone else in the congregation to "get anything" it is for you and others to give to God what he commands. Worship is given only to God, and it is not what children "get" or what you "get" that matters. Worship is supposed to be centered on God and what we give him. While there is benefit to us, the purpose is to give. While we might have benefit of true grace in hearing the word, in sharing in the Lord's supper, in the prayers offered, and many other things, those are just peripheral to the corporate worship of God. The corporate worship of God by his people is not for his people in the sense of it being our "due" but it is what we give to God.
> 
> Therefore, arguing that there are distractions, that children make noise, that the air conditioning is not working, that the heat is broken, that the piano is not properly tuned, that the seats are not comfortable or anything else that is man centered just isn't going to have me put much stock in the complaint.
> 
> Going to a play, or concert? Sure, only those that know how to behave ought to be in the audience. But the audience in the worship of God is God, not us. And all those that are worshipping only worship acceptably because of the work of Christ. The filthy rags that I present in worship is not different qualitatively from the worship of a child, even one that is crying. They are covenant members of the church. They worship God, through the blood of Christ, just as acceptably as we.
> 
> If God is the one that receives worship, our hearing the word is an element, yes, but even in that, it is not a teaching seminar. Preaching is not teaching, otherwise we would have the sermon with a blackboard and we would be taking notes and there would be tests at the end of every service.
> 
> You are correct in one thing. No binding of the liberty can occur unless it occurs through the word or by other Biblical authority (we are free from the commands of men in anything contrary to the word, or beside it in matters of faith and worship). So the question is does God require worship by children, and if so, when.
Click to expand...



I will side with Ben's assertion. You seem to be hearing what he is not saying. Of course first and foremost, the service is to be God-ward. Yet, to exclude the element of teaching is unfounded. In fact, since most people do not attend a bible study, the service becomes a focal point for teaching. My rule of thumb is if people will not attend a study, then bring the study to them when they are present. We must exploit the 'Sunday only' people who think they can be just some group of potted plants, throwing some cash at the operating budget, and leave immediately after the 'whistle blows' never to be seen for another 7 days!!!!! Your understanding of worship is the one that is too rigid and single purposed. Do not be a man centered phobic. God does come and tabernacle with man for a reason. To convert or to harden. 

Ben covers both scenarios with truth. It is not an either or situation. I for one do not applaud those who discipline their children into the kingdom with spanking to sit quietly for the service. God certainly does not prescribe physical punishment towards His children to partake of His love, so how can we think we have the right to do it with ours? It is a form of the terrible teaching of hell evangelism!!!!! It is conversion by Law and not grace. 

If the kid is unruly, don't bring them. Send them to a nursery or cry room. It is not as if God can only plant seeds or enlighten them on Sunday for an hour. The Sunday service can easily cross the line into sacerdotalism if we are not careful...


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## CatherineL

Just for clarity, I want to point out that while we correct our children (at what I believe is an appropriate age) to train them to sit and be quiet in worship, I do the same to train them to sit and behave appropriately while eating out at a restaurant (or at our kitchen table!), to play quietly next to me when I ask them if I need to speak to Dad or a visiting friend or on the phone, and how to have a soft voice and stay close to me when shopping in the grocery store. 

Many people do not focus much on this kind of training anymore, so it may seem harsh and weird. Some of the comments on this thread imply that by correcting a child when they disobey in the service that parents will give them a bad impression of church. I put forth that this kind of training is essential, even if your children don't stay with you in the service (maybe you have a wonderful children's church program!). Children still must be taught to behave appropriately in situations that are not focused on their explicit entertainment, and there will always be situations where they must be quiet and listen. In fact, if church is the only time parents try to teach this, I'm sure both the parents and children would be very frustrated.


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## Brian Withnell

SolaScriptura said:


> This is not true. Well, perhaps it is not totally incorrect, just more like a pious sounding overstatment. Why then is there teaching? Why does God meet us in the sacraments? To say that a public worship service is _only_ to give something to God is simply wrong. If we aren't supposed to get anything out of the service, why bother taking notes... heck, why even make the Reformation era stink about the service being in an intelligible language? God centered, God oriented, yes. But God loves His people and meets with and admonishes, convicts, encourages, teaches, reminds, and blesses His people during worship. This is what we "get" in worship.... _when we [are able to!] pay attention._



First, I did not say that we don't "get" anything from worship, I stated explicitly that we do (in particular, I mentioned the LS as an explicit example). But teaching is not part of worship. Preaching is part of worship. There is a difference. And worship is not primarily for us. It is not pious sounding, it is plain simple truth. Worship is giving to God his due.

Worship is to be intelligible, as it does impact the mind, but that does not mean that it is to be a library where those that are weak minded and have not learned to concentrate should preclude those that are young from being in worship as well. I'm not saying we should not encourage our children to be quite (and of older children demand it). What I am saying is that the scripture does not have any lower age limit mentioned (or that quiet is expected or required).

It would seem much more likely that older folk have a greater capacity for training their minds to pay attention even in less than ideal circumstances than an 18-month-old has to remain quiet. If a soldier cannot concentrate during a battle because it is noisy, he is likely going to die and possibly cause his comrades death as well. Battles are rarely quiet places with everyone still and not causing distractions ... yet we expect a soldier to concentrate and hear his orders. Should we not expect people to concentrate during worship at least as much as a soldier during battle and to exercise self-discipline? Adult ought to be much more capable of concentrating than the capability of youngster to sit quietly for a 45 minute sermon. It is important for us to hear, but that means we should be able to concentrate even when a child cries (or is eating Cherios ... I cannot believe that is distracting to anyone over the age of 10! Self-discipline is required of everyone.)


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## Amazing Grace

Brian Withnell said:


> First, I did not say that we don't "get" anything from worship, I stated explicitly that we do (in particular, I mentioned the LS as an explicit example). But teaching is not part of worship. Preaching is part of worship. There is a difference. And worship is not primarily for us. It is not pious sounding, it is plain simple truth. Worship is giving to God his due.



Brian, How can the two be separated? This may digress the thread, but to say teaching is not part of the worship service is directly against the recorded writ of what is supposed to happen when we corporately come together. Teaching is used so frequently in connection with our Lord's appearance in the synagogue, that its lesson is obvious ( Matt 4:23; Mark 1:21, 6:2; Luke 4:15, 6:6, 13:10; John 6:59, 18:20). The main object of the synagogue was the teaching of the people. Paul continued this principle for the church:

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. Titus 1:9

The rule of the synagogue for leaders was repeated by Paul. As the elders were the "pastor teachers" in the synagogue, Paul insisted that they be the preacher-teachers in the local congregation. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Col 3:16 

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people


And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.


In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. 


And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 


There is just too many to mention here. I suggest you rethink this point you are making.


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## ChariotsofFire

I am in need of some advice in this area.

My wife and I have had our own share of difficulties with our 10 1/2 month old daughter. She sure is a wiggly one, and it is difficult for her to last in worship much more than 15 minutes. Sometimes the only way to keep her in the service is to distract her with a book or a toy. Then it seems like we're defeating the purpose of keeping her in worship. I'm not really sure what to expect out of a soon to be 11 month old (she is our 1st). Our church has a nursery, and I usually end up taking her there before the sermon sometime. Would it be better if I sat outside the sanctuary doors and held her there? 

I know it is important that children are in the worship service, and that even at that young of an age they are starting to understand so much. It just is very difficult to have my little daughter there, since she is so wiggly and noisy. It's not that she is misbehaving, it's just that she doesn't know that she is supposed to sit still. How do we as parents teach her that?

Family worship is very difficult at this point as well, and she clearly has not learned to sit still without us distracting her with something, but then again she is only 11 months old. I just want what is best for her, but I'm not sure how to go about it.


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## CatherineL

Josh, what I would do at that age would be to keep her in the service as possible (I'd shoot for getting through the singing, babies can get away with being a bit louder), but if she'll stay in the nursery I'd put her there for the rest of the service. 10 months is not too young to start, but I don't start really expecting them to be able to sit for more than 15-20 minutes until 2. At least none of my revved up crazy babies could do it, even practicing at home.  That's just been my experience with my 3. My youngest (18 months) can get through the first 30 minutes or so, then we head to the cry room. It depends a lot on the baby's temperament. 

If you really feel convicted that you want her in worship at this age, I would take her out when she gets squeaky and bring her back in when she quiets down. I know this gets pretty exhausting though. Have your wife practice "sit time" with her at home at other times during the day (sitting at the computer has been a good time for us). Don't let her play with anything or distract her, just hold her in your lap (good to do this when she's not tired, hungry or wet of course!) and do something not related to her so she gets used to just sitting without something to distract her. I posted a link earlier in the thread that you might find useful related to this. Another idea might be to blanket train her. Basically you sit her on a small blanket and teach her to not crawl off the blanket and quietly play with a toy or two. You do it at home a few times a day building up time. Be very upbeat and be prepared for it to take some time. I did it with my oldest - had some special circumstances at the time that made it especially useful - but haven't bothered to teach my younger two. Just some ideas - hope that helps!


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## fredtgreco

I've commented on this topic before (a search will reveal at least a dozen of such threads), so I won't be extensive in my comments here.

1. I think that a covenantal principle is important, and families should be encouraged, where possible to worship together.

2. Attempts to embarrass families or restrict children from worship (especially at a late age) are wrong. I have seen instances where all children under 12 or 16 are discouraged/prevented from worship in favor of "children's" or "teen" services.

3. But I also believe it is illegitimate to embarrass or cajole families who have a real need for childcare during a service. Moms need a break. FAR too often it is *always* the Mom who is distracted or leaves the room. (And before a couple of posters pipe up who say "I take the child out," I am speaking from extensive experience in many churches in different parts of the country).

4. I have never seen an advocate of the baby/toddler must be in the service (as opposed to a "may") answer the point made by Nehemiah 8:2-3



> 2 So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, both men and women and *all who could understand *what they heard, on the first day of the seventh month. 3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and *those who could understand*. And the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. (Emphasis added)



5. I believe that those who most champion the "child must be in the service" view often make arguments that are contrary to the Reformed way of viewing both worship and the means of grace. When we speak of the means of grace, we (rightly) discuss the priority of the mind (viz. Owen on this point). This is the main reason we advocate Scripture reading in an intelligible (vulgar) language, preaching as a primary means of grace, and deny paedocommunion. Yet somehow, when we are speaking of a 8 month old, or a 10 month old, there is a form of mysticism that comes up, in which somehow simply being in the immediate physical location of a worship service imparts grace to a person who has no understanding of language, Biblical concepts, or teaching.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a nursery for such young ones, at the parent's option, so that the parents can be fed from the Word, have a short break from the cares of parenting, and be better equipped to teach their children.


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## SolaScriptura

Rightly said, Fred!


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## Montanablue

Yes, well said, Pastor Greco. Thank you.


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## Brian Withnell

Amazing Grace said:


> Brian, How can the two be separated? This may digress the thread, but to say teaching is not part of the worship service is directly against the recorded writ of what is supposed to happen when we corporately come together. Teaching is used so frequently in connection with our Lord's appearance in the synagogue, that its lesson is obvious ( Matt 4:23; Mark 1:21, 6:2; Luke 4:15, 6:6, 13:10; John 6:59, 18:20). The main object of the synagogue was the teaching of the people. Paul continued this principle for the church:
> 
> He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. Titus 1:9
> 
> The rule of the synagogue for leaders was repeated by Paul. As the elders were the "pastor teachers" in the synagogue, Paul insisted that they be the preacher-teachers in the local congregation. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Col 3:16
> 
> And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people
> 
> 
> And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
> 
> 
> In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
> 
> Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
> 
> 
> And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
> 
> 
> There is just too many to mention here. I suggest you rethink this point you are making.




WCF 21.5



> The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear, the sound preaching and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence, singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: beside religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions, which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.



Teaching is part of the church, of that I agree completely, but it is not listed as an element of worship. Church members are not allowed to be just in a service on Sunday morning and that is it. If they are not immersing themselves in the Bible through self education, through group Bible study, Sunday School (even adults) then there is no way they are going to understand the scriptures enough.

Learning occurs during preaching, but preaching is not teaching. Teaching requires two way interaction between student and teacher. And even though preaching is somewhat like a lecture, it is not to be purely lecture (if it were, then our worship services could have the "preacher" be a recorded sermon from the internet! Yuch!)

That the two are different is clearly shown by one of the verses you quoted:


> And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.



This verse show Jesus doing three things, teaching, preaching and healing. They are different, and while it might be that many people want to equate them (I've seen this as an excuse for allowing a skit during a worship service ... "it is effective in teaching a Bible lesson"). More often the equating of them comes from those that want to bend the RPW into a wax nose to be bent that allows anything ... if it can be used to teach; then by saying teaching is what a sermon is, allows anything which can teach. It is preaching that is an element of worship, not teaching.

Of course teaching must be done. The great commission is a command to make disciples, and we doing that (partially) through teaching. But disciples are those that undergo discipline (self-discipline most of the time). Are we making disciples if people only show up on Sunday morning and that is the only time they hear the word of God? I would say no. The call of God is not a call to slowly ease oneself into a new lifestyle, it is a call to deny self, take up a cross and follow. Those that show no sign of heeding that call may or may not be part of the body of Christ, but it is not for them that worship occurs (I would submit it is *least* for those that are not part of the body of Christ ... the worship service is not for evangelism even less than it is for teaching, even though it sometimes does occur).

I recognize that some churches use the worship service for teaching, and many use them for evangelism (with "alter calls" at the end of every sermon) which I submit is outside the scope of what worship is to be. Worship is to be God centered, and done as he has commanded.

I know what it is like to have to remove a child from a service when they are disruptive, but having library quiet is not required in a service. There needs to some control over children ... the service should not be a place where heckling occurs either ... but God (the audience of worship) hears the congregation (the performers of worship) even when children are less than perfectly quiet.

-----Added 10/19/2009 at 06:09:35 EST-----



fredtgreco said:


> 4. I have never seen an advocate of the baby/toddler must be in the service (as opposed to a "may") answer the point made by Nehemiah 8:2-3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, both men and women and *all who could understand *what they heard, on the first day of the seventh month. 3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and *those who could understand*. And the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. (Emphasis added)
Click to expand...


Fred, much of what you state I agree with, and while I tend to be of the opinion that it is not right to keep children out of the service, I do so for different reasons than you express. But I certainly want to be the first person to answer the post if you have never had this answered. The passage is not a worship service ... people worshiped, but this was at the outset, this was just reading the law to a people that had not heard the law (return to Jerusalem). So while it was those that could understand, there is nothing to say it was the Sabbath (it was the first of the month), and while worship occurred, it certainly was not temple worship. The context simply does not allow the application that it is supposed to be typical.

To state that I see nothing wrong with having a nursery is also true, but I see absolutely no mandate that it be used or that children be absolutely quiet.


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## tlharvey7

i love hearing babies in church.... i think Jesus liked it as well


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## KMK

The one problem with nurseries is that, by necessity, they take some of 'those who understand' away from the preaching. I think each church needs to weigh the pros and cons and establish a policy that fits them best. This policy should not turn into 'tradition'. The church should revisit such decisions often to make sure the power of preaching is meeting its maximum potential in the church.


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## Brian Withnell

One more thing that I'd like to add. If "piping the sermon" into a nursery or cry room is sufficient, then how about over the internet? I see little if any difference between having a sermon piped into a nursery and having someone stay home and listen to whomever on the internet.

All those arguments for not having an internet church are the same for those that would be in the nursery week after week. The fewer people in the nursery, the better (though if you have a nursery, then it should be shared by as many people as possible so that few are out more than once or twice a year -- it should especially be manned by those that don't like to hear little children in the service if you ask me!).

I also love to hear children in the service, and while I might be upset with an older child that is not paying any heed to the sermon, I am happy to hear the sound of a baby in a worship service. I do not know when a child becomes aware of what is being said around them, but I know it is generally much sooner than when they can articulate it. I would rather have all the members of a church in the worship service than keep any of them out.


----------



## TrueConvert

fredtgreco said:


> I've commented on this topic before (a search will reveal at least a dozen of such threads), so I won't be extensive in my comments here.
> 
> 1. I think that a covenantal principle is important, and families should be encouraged, where possible to worship together.
> 
> 2. Attempts to embarrass families or restrict children from worship (especially at a late age) are wrong. I have seen instances where all children under 12 or 16 are discouraged/prevented from worship in favor of "children's" or "teen" services.
> 
> 3. But I also believe it is illegitimate to embarrass or cajole families who have a real need for childcare during a service. Moms need a break. FAR too often it is *always* the Mom who is distracted or leaves the room. (And before a couple of posters pipe up who say "I take the child out," I am speaking from extensive experience in many churches in different parts of the country).
> 
> 4. I have never seen an advocate of the baby/toddler must be in the service (as opposed to a "may") answer the point made by Nehemiah 8:2-3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, both men and women and *all who could understand *what they heard, on the first day of the seventh month. 3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and *those who could understand*. And the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. (Emphasis added)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. I believe that those who most champion the "child must be in the service" view often make arguments that are contrary to the Reformed way of viewing both worship and the means of grace. When we speak of the means of grace, we (rightly) discuss the priority of the mind (viz. Owen on this point). This is the main reason we advocate Scripture reading in an intelligible (vulgar) language, preaching as a primary means of grace, and deny paedocommunion. Yet somehow, when we are speaking of a 8 month old, or a 10 month old, there is a form of mysticism that comes up, in which somehow simply being in the immediate physical location of a worship service imparts grace to a person who has no understanding of language, Biblical concepts, or teaching.
> 
> I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a nursery for such young ones, at the parent's option, so that the parents can be fed from the Word, have a short break from the cares of parenting, and be better equipped to teach their children.
Click to expand...


So appropriately succinct, I am thinking through my stance on this again. Thanks!


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## lynnie

If a child is not old enough to take communion, and has not reached what the parents consider to be the age of faith and understanding for that sacrament, are they really mentally capable of having their mind well renewed in faith by an adult sermon? 

If they cannot eat the Lords supper, can they really "feast upon the word" any better in with the pastor's sermon, than with kid appropriate curriculums? If they do not have evidence of conversion and faith for communion, can they recieve the word spoken with faith? Don't we need to listen with faith?

I don't know, but I have always thought that the singing and prayer part of worship they do get something out of. But renewing the mind needs to be age appropriate, whether math, science, language, or theology. And faith is necessary for listening to the word preached.

My personal opinion is to let them stay in when they start taking communion but not before, its just a waste of coloring book pages and crayons and a distraction to everybody else.


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## Scottish Lass

lynnie said:


> If a child is not old enough to take communion, and has not reached what the parents consider to be the age of faith and understanding for that sacrament, are they really mentally capable of having their mind well renewed in faith by an adult sermon?
> 
> If they cannot eat the Lords supper, can they really "feast upon the word" any better in with the pastor's sermon, than with kid appropriate curriculums? If they do not have evidence of conversion and faith for communion, can they recieve the word spoken with faith? Don't we need to listen with faith?
> 
> I don't know, but I have always thought that the singing and prayer part of worship they do get something out of. But renewing the mind needs to be age appropriate, whether math, science, language, or theology. And faith is necessary for listening to the word preached.
> 
> My personal opinion is to let them stay in when they start taking communion but not before, its just a waste of coloring book pages and crayons and a distraction to everybody else.



The logical conclusion to some of your points would be to exclude unbelievers from the sermon as well.

Plus, do children benefit from seeing the sacraments modeled? We have had two children (in our tiny congregation) ask questions about the Lord's Supper and expressing a deepening understanding of faith (for the one who is capable).


----------



## Brian Withnell

lynnie said:


> If a child is not old enough to take communion, and has not reached what the parents consider to be the age of faith and understanding for that sacrament, are they really mentally capable of having their mind well renewed in faith by an adult sermon?
> 
> If they cannot eat the Lords supper, can they really "feast upon the word" any better in with the pastor's sermon, than with kid appropriate curriculums? If they do not have evidence of conversion and faith for communion, can they recieve the word spoken with faith? Don't we need to listen with faith?
> 
> I don't know, but I have always thought that the singing and prayer part of worship they do get something out of. But renewing the mind needs to be age appropriate, whether math, science, language, or theology. And faith is necessary for listening to the word preached.
> 
> My personal opinion is to let them stay in when they start taking communion but not before, its just a waste of coloring book pages and crayons and a distraction to everybody else.



Exo 12:24-26


> “And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever. “When you enter the land which the Lord will give you, as He has promised, you shall observe this rite. “And when your children say to you, ‘What does this rite mean to you?’


Not all are going to understand, and that is explicitly okay. Passover was explicitly for "you and your children" without lower age limit.

Again, worship is not what we get out of it. It is given to God, and we benefit from it only as a peripheral issue -- yes, we benefit from it (at least some of us) but that is beside the point. The pastor I would think often does not learn anything new in hearing his sermon preached (he hopefully knows what he is going to say and so much more before he speaks that when he preaches, it will add little to nothing), yet he is worshipping in the service as much as anyone else.


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## fredtgreco

Brian Withnell said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4. I have never seen an advocate of the baby/toddler must be in the service (as opposed to a "may") answer the point made by Nehemiah 8:2-3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, both men and women and *all who could understand *what they heard, on the first day of the seventh month. 3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and *those who could understand*. And the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. (Emphasis added)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fred, much of what you state I agree with, and while I tend to be of the opinion that it is not right to keep children out of the service, I do so for different reasons than you express. But I certainly want to be the first person to answer the post if you have never had this answered. The passage is not a worship service ... people worshiped, but this was at the outset, this was just reading the law to a people that had not heard the law (return to Jerusalem). So while it was those that could understand, there is nothing to say it was the Sabbath (it was the first of the month), and while worship occurred, it certainly was not temple worship. The context simply does not allow the application that it is supposed to be typical.
Click to expand...


You prove way too much. Find me one passage in the Bible where there is an explicit worship service, where babies are present. Explicitly. You cannot, by the rule you have just made. And you have also gutted the proof of the "Jesus suffered the children" proof text, since that was much less a worship service than that of Nehemiah 8.

There is a principle here that you dodge and refuse to address by generalities like "worship is not what we get out of it." No one is saying that. But you refuse to address the issue of the mind, the reading of Scripture in the vulgar (common) language and the Reformed view of the means of grace.


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## fredtgreco

lynnie said:


> If a child is not old enough to take communion, and has not reached what the parents consider to be the age of faith and understanding for that sacrament, are they really mentally capable of having their mind well renewed in faith by an adult sermon?
> 
> If they cannot eat the Lords supper, can they really "feast upon the word" any better in with the pastor's sermon, than with kid appropriate curriculums? If they do not have evidence of conversion and faith for communion, can they recieve the word spoken with faith? Don't we need to listen with faith?
> 
> I don't know, but I have always thought that the singing and prayer part of worship they do get something out of. But renewing the mind needs to be age appropriate, whether math, science, language, or theology. And faith is necessary for listening to the word preached.
> 
> My personal opinion is to let them stay in when they start taking communion but not before, its just a waste of coloring book pages and crayons and a distraction to everybody else.



This also proves too much. Being admitted to the Table implies a level of understanding (not just a capacity to understand, but more beyond that) _prior_ to admission. There is a huge difference between understanding simple things appropriate to one's age, and an inability to understand language at all.

I make it a point to have portions and applications of my preaching understandable to small children.


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## Brian Withnell

fredtgreco said:


> You prove way too much. Find me one passage in the Bible where there is an explicit worship service, where babies are present. Explicitly. You cannot, by the rule you have just made. And you have also gutted the proof of the "Jesus suffered the children" proof text, since that was much less a worship service than that of Nehemiah 8.
> 
> There is a principle here that you dodge and refuse to address by generalities like "worship is not what we get out of it." No one is saying that. But you refuse to address the issue of the mind, the reading of Scripture in the vulgar (common) language and the Reformed view of the means of grace.



Fred, I'm not going to fall into a trap of trying to prove that an argument from silence is valid. There are also no instances of explicit mention of the baptism of infants, but I know you won't insist that means we should not baptize infants. Though toward the end, you will find there is a command to bring infants into the worship at least once to which you will agree.

I think you missed something of what I said initially ... much of what you said I agree. My point is that there is reason for not having paedo communion that is beyond not having an example of it. The LS requires discerning the body and blood of the Lord, and so requires faith on the part of the individual.

There is no requirement of faith on the part of the individual for baptism (and I take it that you would agree that a baptism for infants is only done in a worship service, so if you must have one example of a worship service with an infant, you have it there ... along with every circumcision in the OT). Of course you might want to argue that these are the exception ... that we bring our children in to be baptized, then relegate them to nursery for years after having them in the service once. So then there is a requirement for infants to be in a worship service at least once (even our credo baptist brethren would have a dedication of an infant in a worship service). But then those that say infants have no place in worship would then kick them out.

Again, while I agree with much of what you post, I do not think that worship *only* occurs because of understanding. Long before my children understand the language of the apostles' creed, they know and can recite the words. Long before they understand the Bible, it is read to them. Long before they understand the words to "A Mighty Fortress" they sing it. Long before they understand why we give an offering, they place their offering in the collection. Are they participating in worship at their baptism? You bet they are! Are they participating in the offering? Absolutely! Are they hearing the word of God? Do they recite the creeds? Do they sing hymns, psalms and spiritual songs?

They worship God. Not only through what they understand, but also through what they do not know. They knew nothing of the meaning of baptism (at between 10 days and 2 months [when we were in a church plant]). They participated in worship then, and I see no reason why they should not participate all the way along.

Does that mean that there shouldn't be a nursery? No. Does that mean that there aren't times when parents have little choice but to have a child in nursery? No. Take an autistic child into a service, and if they are having a highly autistic incident, they will melt down with nothing to do but remove them from the service (all the while them saying "I want to worship God! I want to worship God!) What I do not think acceptable is that with no extenuating circumstance that people think it okay to warehouse their children away from the worship of God.

It would be good for those in the church to help parents keep children in the worship, but the norm is to help parents keep children out of worship. I'd rather see volunteers that will sit with a little one and help keep them under control in worship than have nursery workers outside the worship.


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## he beholds

Scottish Lass said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a child is not old enough to take communion, and has not reached what the parents consider to be the age of faith and understanding for that sacrament, are they really mentally capable of having their mind well renewed in faith by an adult sermon?
> 
> If they cannot eat the Lords supper, can they really "feast upon the word" any better in with the pastor's sermon, than with kid appropriate curriculums? If they do not have evidence of conversion and faith for communion, can they recieve the word spoken with faith? Don't we need to listen with faith?
> 
> I don't know, but I have always thought that the singing and prayer part of worship they do get something out of. But renewing the mind needs to be age appropriate, whether math, science, language, or theology. And faith is necessary for listening to the word preached.
> 
> My personal opinion is to let them stay in when they start taking communion but not before, its just a waste of coloring book pages and crayons and a distraction to everybody else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The logical conclusion to some of your points would be to exclude unbelievers from the sermon as well.
> 
> Plus, do children benefit from seeing the sacraments modeled? We have had two children (in our tiny congregation) ask questions about the Lord's Supper and expressing a deepening understanding of faith (for the one who is capable).
Click to expand...



Plus, our children are also just aware of what we do on Sundays. They are aware that we pray, sing, read, listen, and partake of communion every Sunday. They see that the things we do at home in family worship are modeled after something. (All but the communion!) Should we wait until they are old enough to "comprehend" to start family worship? 

However, I do like Pastor Greco's point about comprehension mattering, and I appreciate the way he connected it to ours not being a faith of mysticism, because I do believe that I have probably considered my children to be receiving the means of grace earlier than what was possible--BUT, I also believe that I wouldn't know for certain when they are able to start receiving them, so it is a safe choice, in the very least.

-----Added 10/19/2009 at 09:25:07 EST-----



Brian Withnell said:


> It would be good for those in the church to help parents keep children in the worship, but the norm is to help parents keep children out of worship. I'd rather see volunteers that will sit with a little one and help keep them under control in worship than have nursery workers outside the worship.



Great idea!!!


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## TeachingTulip

Caroline said:


> I don't think anyone said anything about not spanking a child at all. I said I prefer not to spank them for not sitting still in church when they are toddlers.



Indeed, not! 

Discipline established and accomplished in the home, will reflect in public.





> some here say that they spank their children every Lord's Day at least once for not sitting still.



God forbid!

Proper biblical discipline at home should prevent public discipline. Spanking children in the context of worship is very unwise.



> Let's face it, if you were slapped every time you attended church, wouldn't you start to dread going?



A profound, AMEN!


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## puritanpilgrim

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Caroline
> 
> I don't think anyone said anything about not spanking a child at all. I said I prefer not to spank them for not sitting still in church when they are toddlers.
> 
> Indeed, not!
> 
> Discipline established and accomplished in the home, will reflect in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> some here say that they spank their children every Lord's Day at least once for not sitting still.
> 
> God forbid!
> 
> Proper biblical discipline at home should prevent public discipline. Spanking children in the context of worship is very unwise.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Let's face it, if you were slapped every time you attended church, wouldn't you start to dread going?
> 
> A profound, AMEN!



You don't have my son.


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## lynnie

scottish lass, I think unbelievers understand the sermons perfectly. They may think it is a load of rubbish, but they comprehend what is being said. Does a two year old? It isn't the same at all.

Just to clarify, we had our kids in for singing/prayer/communion/scripture reading. I didn't mean I thought toddlers should be out the whole time, I meant during the sermon. If teaching from the pulpit is to renew the mind, I think the way the mind of a three year old and the mind of a 45 year old gets renewed is a little bit different. By maybe 8-12 depending on the kid they start grasping deeper theology from the pulpit, but the average toddler, well, mine were in the 99th percentile on all those CAT tests in school, they are smart, but they were not ready for sermons as toddlers. Not at all. 


Our kids took communion very young though. By age 4 if I recall correctly. (before our PCA days and it was OK in those churches).They all gave every evidence of having true love and faith for the Lord and were aware of sin in a way appropriate to their age. (I tend to think they may have had more simplistic faith and repentance at the table than us grownups did!) I don't see how the table can be denied to those who are capable of understanding sermons. It is easier to understand communion than the average good Reformed sermon. At least that is how I see it......


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## TeachingTulip

puritanpilgrim said:


> You don't have my son.



Are you admitting to physically punishing your child in church, routinely and repeatedly?

How are you dealing with your son in private and out of sight of others?


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## SolaScriptura

TeachingTulip said:


> puritanpilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have my son.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you admitting to physically punishing your child in church, routinely and repeatedly?
> 
> How are you dealing with your son in private and out of sight of others?
Click to expand...


Quite frankly, I don't think this is any of your business. His job as a parent isn't to live up to your expectations.


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## Amazing Grace

Brian Withnell said:


> Again, worship is not what we get out of it. It is given to God, and we benefit from it only as a peripheral issue -- yes, we benefit from it (at least some of us) but that is beside the point. The pastor I would think often does not learn anything new in hearing his sermon preached (he hopefully knows what he is going to say and so much more before he speaks that when he preaches, it will add little to nothing), yet he is worshipping in the service as much as anyone else.



Brian, I hope you do not mind, but I am going to start another thread on this issue and hope many can hammer it out together. "Is teaching involved in the worship service"


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## lynnie

Hey sola, don't feel bad, we had four sons. The second one got 20 times more spankings than all the rest and was still the ringleader for mischief. Drove us wild sometimes. Age 25 now and turned out fine. He got hired several years ago at a huge summer camp with a hundred school teachers doing specialties (his was archery), and the camp director said he had only hired 3 non school teachers and my son was the youngest of all, but he thought he could handle it. He did great, especially with the goof offs and the troublemakers. He's a natural with kids. Good leadership giftings, he has been a natural leader all his life in most situations. 

One time in church when he was about two almost three maybe, he got up, ripped down his pants and announced that he had to pee and waddled down the aisle. The whole church dissolved laughing. I was mortified. My other three were so compliant and mellow, we used to joke that we wondered if the hospital gave us the wrong kid. 


I'm not into Dobson but he does talk about the pin prick test in one of his books. Prick a baby foot at one week old and there are maybe nine different reactions. The whimper, the pull the foot away, the scream, the indifference, the angry defiance, etc. At one week. Some of them are just born a certain way. The strong willed are much harder to train but the potential for influence is also greater, so it is a gift. Hang in there.


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## CatherineL

Brian Withnell said:


> One more thing that I'd like to add. If "piping the sermon" into a nursery or cry room is sufficient, then how about over the internet? I see little if any difference between having a sermon piped into a nursery and having someone stay home and listen to whomever on the internet.



I told my husband about this post this morning and said, "maybe I should just keep my fuzzy slippers on and stay here this morning..?"

Yeah, he wasn't really convinced.

I agree with Brian, and wish I could find a church where people really didn't mind a 17 month old puttering around, but I think a cry room is the next best thing.


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## peetred

I listened to a very interesting sermon on this topic by Jeff Noblit that would be beneficial to this topic. 
Sermons | Anchored In Truth Ministries "Why We Encourage Using the Nursery Until Your Children Are Able to Listen With Understanding"

I wrote this on my blog about it.. 

Plenty of sermons have been preached about disciplining children, and why children should sit in the worship service with their parents from birth, but below is a sermon you’ve probably never heard before. Many well meaning parents, with their hearts in the right place (myself included), have headed this advice. Some level of guilt is planted in us that leaving our children in the presence of christian fellowship while we give our attention and respect to the Word of God is somehow passing off our parental responsibilities spoken of in scripture.

But is the purpose of the preaching of God’s word being ignored, while the purpose of the training of children exalted? What do the scriptures say about conduct during the preaching of God’s word?

If you are under the impression that having a nursery is only for selfish and irresponsible parents, I encourage you to open your heart for a moment and your mind to the scriptures. Jeff Noblit, who is Paul Washer’s pastor, gives some insight to this topic in his sermon Why We Encourage Using the Nursery Until Your Children Are Able to Listen With Understanding from Nehemiah 8:1-3, 8 which can be found here.

I think above all, we need to be careful in forcing guilt and blame on other believers for silly things with no scriptural basis. I have yet to find a bible verse that condemns a parent for leaving their child in the presence of another while they attend to other tasks. I think it quite a good idea to suggest that we treat the preaching of God’s word with reverence, so that when a child enters the age of understanding the scriptures, they might be as attentive and respective of the preaching of the word as we have been. How do we allow ourselves to become so distracted during the preaching of the word, and yet expect our very young children to do exactly the opposite?


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## CatherineL

Thanks Vanessa, that does look interesting. Very rarely hear anyone preaching directly about stuff like that!
I haven't been able to listen to that yet, but I'm interested in what age he says is old enough to understand the sermon.


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## he beholds

I haven't heard the sermon yet, but I am wondering if this could be a Baptist vs. Presbyterian distinction. 

I know that Baptist churches in general seem (I said seem, please don't be mad if I am way off base!) to be intentional and deliberate in their children's service idea, whereas most Presbyterian churches that I know of generally set it up so that the best place for them to be during the worship service is in worship, though of course they might take Sunday School seriously for children. The Presbyterian's approach to an alternative during the worship hour is not quite as intentional or even as "beneficial" to a child, as it is usually just nursery. In my experience, I've not been to a Presbyterian church (a legit one--not USA or anything) with Kids' church, but I have been to Baptist or Baptistic churches with Kids' church. 

So if a parent was convinced that children should not be in the Service, he might fare better at a church where there is something other than nursery offered, not because nursery is bad, but because it is not a time of teaching and it's not Sunday-specific. 

Also, could Covenant Theology come into play?

An aside, and I am sure that I've mentioned this specific incident before on the PB, but we once bought a book from the thrift store by Dobson on child-rearing. I read his belief that children should not be in church before a certain age (four, I believe). He said that if your church did not have a nursery, you should hire a babysitter and leave your child at home! My husband threw the book away 

Does anyone else who advocates children in the nursery also advocate children staying home on Sunday mornings? Let's say that you did not have to hire a babysitter, but it worked out that your mom watched them for free because her service was at a different time (this way, no one is missing church or being employed on Sunday for your children). Would you see a strong reason to bring your kids with you Sunday morning, if there was no Sunday School class that they were missing.


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## Marrow Man

he beholds said:


> An aside, and I am sure that I've mentioned this specific incident before on the PB, but we once bought a book from the thrift store by Dobson on child-rearing. I read his belief that children should not be in church before a certain age (four, I believe). He said that if your church did not have a nursery, you should hire a babysitter and leave your child at home! My husband threw the book away





Needless to say, Jessi, little Grace Cameron Phillips, D.V., will be not only be baptized as close to the 8th day as is feasible, but she will be sitting under the preaching of the word as early as possible.


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## Contra_Mundum

Someone asked for an *explicit *reference that called for the bringing of children to worship. The following text calls for a gathering of the whole people together for the ministry of the Word. And a general reference to children is made, part-for-the-whole, indeed a fortiori, argument from lesser to greater (if these least-of-all, then the whole number).

It may be argued that this was a _special occasion,_ or _occasional_ in nature. OK, but it is a plain call for the entire people to be gathered, without exception for age. Providence and prudence are always needful considerations (blunting the absolute enforcement of any statue), but take note of this passage.

Dt.31:9-13


> 9 So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel. 10 And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, 11 when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses, you shall *read this law before all Israel* in their hearing. 12 Gather the people together, men and women *and little ones*, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the LORD your God and carefully observe all the words of this law, 13 and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God as long as you live in the land which you cross the Jordan to possess.


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