# Arminians...



## Learner (May 26, 2004)

Have you appreciated anything about them,such as their godliness?I am a Calvinist.I started quote threads on 3 strong Calvinists:Gordon Clark,A.W.Pink,and Charles H.Spurgeon.They make repeated points about the impoverished Arminian stance.Yet they affirm the sainthood of many who subscribe to the semi-Pelagian position.
Because of my years on this planet I have probably had many more &quot;discussions/debates&quot; with them than a lot of you.But I also have had friendships that were not strained
despite the theological gap.I am just wondering what some of you have encountered.i'd like to hear positive things mainly.That is for encouragement sake.


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## rembrandt (May 27, 2004)

Arminians are good people......... when they become Calvinists.


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## Irishcat922 (May 27, 2004)

My personal view of arminians is that they are saved by the Grace of God just like I am. I can't remember who said it, mabe it was Whitefield who said&quot; every arminian becomes a calvinist when he gets on his knees to pray.&quot;


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## Learner (May 27, 2004)

Sean,many Calvinists have said that remark regarding the fact that an Arminian becomes a Calvinist on their knees.
Warfield,Spurgeon,even Herman Hoeksema.It is impossible to make an Arminian prayer (with the qualification that the prayer is indeed honest).
Merely to say you don't hate Arminians and that they are saved if they trust Christ is definately not what I was looking for Paul.If you have Arminian friends tell me something encouraging about their walk before the Lord.That is, something that prompted you to give God the glory.Though
many Arminians seem to want to share the glory with God in their salvation,they give evidence in their walk that the Lord alone is responsible for their redemption and all the blessings in their lives.


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## Christopher (May 27, 2004)

[quote:09cf7074bd][i:09cf7074bd]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:09cf7074bd]
[quote:09cf7074bd]
Paul.If you have Arminian friends tell me something encouraging about their walk before the Lord.That is, something that prompted you to give God the glory.Though 
many Arminians seem to want to share the glory with God in their salvation,they give evidence in their walk that the Lord alone is responsible for their redemption and all the blessings in their lives. 
[/quote:09cf7074bd]

they're happy......

seriously now: they have no problem being extremely joyful and are more strong on the emotional side. We have a tendancy to put down the emotional side and be on the logical side. There should be a proper balance between both.

-Paul [/quote:09cf7074bd]


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## FrozenChosen (May 27, 2004)

I have been severely challenged by Arminians to grow spiritually. While they do not stand up well in a theological discussion (I don't stand up well here, but usually can hold my own against them), I have one in my head right now who is always trying to get into the Scriptures and is always encouraging me. Right now he's reading [i:cc23f504fb]Chosen by God.[/i:cc23f504fb]

A lot of them, however, can be hurtful when you approach them kindly about their error and the do the whole knee-jerk caricature reaction to Calvinism. A lot of them have laughed in my face, which is pretty sad.

One reporter asked George Whitefield if he'd see John Wesley in heaven. Whitefield responded with (paraphrased) &quot;No, Wesley will be too close to the throne of God for me to even see him.&quot;

Arminians can do great things for God. After all, it's not up to them whether or not to do such things!

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by FrozenChosen]


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## rembrandt (May 27, 2004)

[quote:304cb49033][i:304cb49033]Originally posted by joshua[/i:304cb49033]
Paul hates Arminians! [/quote:304cb49033]

Which Paul??


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## Ianterrell (May 27, 2004)

I would say that I appreciate every bit of my Arminian friends that is consistent with the Word of God.


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## cupotea (May 27, 2004)

[quote:785da324b9][i:785da324b9]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:785da324b9]
I would say that I appreciate every bit of my Arminian friends that is consistent with the Word of God. [/quote:785da324b9]

Arminian/consistant with the Word of God? Isn't that oxymoronic?


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## turmeric (May 27, 2004)

I'm listening to the Teen Challenge program right now. Proof positive that our Arminian brethern are often more willing to go to the addicted and the obviously sinful and share the Gospel and practical material assistance than we sometimes are! You'd think, knowing about irresistible grace, we'd outdistance them on this, but sad to say...


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## alwaysreforming (May 27, 2004)

*My Arminian friends*

Learner:
I have MANY Arminian friends; in fact, more than I do Calvanists. I only have a few Calvanist friends, maybe 3. The rest are either Arminian or pagan.

One thing I always try to keep in mind is that we are ALL born Arminians. I'm 35 years old and I only became Reformed a couple of years ago (thanks to the &quot;White Horse Inn.&quot As much as I get frustrated that my Arminian friends don't &quot;see it,&quot; I have to remember how long it took ME to come to an accurate knowledge of the Truth!

The Arminians that I know are every bit as godly and God-loving as any Calvanist I know. One of my friends just got back from a month-long missions trip to Africa, that he paid for totally by himself! One of my old girlfriends (I'm sure an Arminian) went away for a YEAR on a missions trip, and gave up everything in order to be away that long. It was to help heroin addicts in Scotland. Before that she was ministering to prostitutes and the homeless out on the streets.

There is no difference between the godliness and devotion between Arminians and Calvanists. To the latter, God has simply given the grace to understand His Truth more accurately and to ascribe ALL the glory to His Holy Name.

We should never look down upon people to whom God has not been as merciful as He has to us. As the Apostle Paul says, &quot;Why do you boast about something you were GIVEN, as if you earned it???&quot;


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## Ianterrell (May 27, 2004)

Suzanne,

Notice my choice of words. I didn't say that Arminians could be consistent with the Word of God. I said I appreciate the bits of them that are. Whether it be a vigilance in prayer, or a true sincere act of humility.


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## cupotea (May 27, 2004)

Ahhh, yes, Mr. Brown, I see that now.

Christopher, I find that I agree with the majority of your post. The only thing that seems to be rubbing me the wrong way at this point, is that many of my Arminian friends think I am a heretic. My husband had lunch with a friend of ours yesterday, and when he told me he was having lunch with this man, I said to tell him the heretic said hello. About a year ago, when this friend of ours learned I had embraced Calvinism, he warned my husband that I was embracing heresy and was hell bound. That stung.

What stung even more was that he wasn't the only one who said that. Church brethren were horrified that I had &quot;gone over to the dark side.&quot; I find that I get very frustrated with friends who refuse to do a serious study but call me a heretic.

Ack, rant over.


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## rembrandt (May 27, 2004)

[quote:336182e993][i:336182e993]Originally posted by Newly Reformed[/i:336182e993]
Ahhh, yes, Mr. Brown, I see that now.

Christopher, I find that I agree with the majority of your post. The only thing that seems to be rubbing me the wrong way at this point, is that many of my Arminian friends think I am a heretic. My husband had lunch with a friend of ours yesterday, and when he told me he was having lunch with this man, I said to tell him the heretic said hello. About a year ago, when this friend of ours learned I had embraced Calvinism, he warned my husband that I was embracing heresy and was hell bound. That stung.

What stung even more was that he wasn't the only one who said that. Church brethren were horrified that I had &quot;gone over to the dark side.&quot; I find that I get very frustrated with friends who refuse to do a serious study but call me a heretic.

Ack, rant over. [/quote:336182e993]

Arminians are great when they are submissive to the truth and just have yet to learn it. When they are calling God's word a heresy it is another story. I think there are two classes of Arminians. Those that are lost Calvinists (if only somebody would show them the way) and those that love the filth of their own self-righteousness: The more you talk to them (about theology) you realize their arrogance. But somehow it is inconsistent with what they believe at heart.

Rembrandt


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## alwaysreforming (May 27, 2004)

Yep, I agree. There's nothing nastier than someone calling Calvanists &quot;heretics&quot;! Some people are just full of vim and vinegar and they give Christians, not just Arminians, a bad name.

If I had any Arminian &quot;friends&quot; of the above type, they would quickly cease being my friends. I only like NICE Arminians!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 27, 2004)

If justification is conditional upon beleiving the truth (faith in the One God has sent), and Arminians do not believe the truth, do you think they can really be saved? Is the Jesus of Arminianism, even today's Evangelical Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible? If he is not, how COULD they be saved? If it is, are Reformed Christians decieved?


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## luvroftheWord (May 27, 2004)

Is Norman Geisler a Christian?


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## A_Wild_Boar (May 27, 2004)

I have an ARminian friend (allthough he doesnt know it)

I tell him the main difference between he and I is

I give all my thanks to God for my salvation. All glory and honor to Him for chosing me , a hell deserving worm.

vs

He didnt need God to turn Him from iniquity before he came to Christ, he (thinks) it was he who chose God.

Other than that we are still on friendly terms.


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## FrozenChosen (May 27, 2004)

[quote:4d9ecb9a78][i:4d9ecb9a78]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:4d9ecb9a78]
If justification is conditional upon beleiving the truth (faith in the One God has sent), and Arminians do not believe the truth, do you think they can really be saved? Is the Jesus of Arminianism, even today's Evangelical Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible? If he is not, how COULD they be saved? If it is, are Reformed Christians decieved? [/quote:4d9ecb9a78]

Matt, just curious because I'm not sure I follow you.

Are you saying that God won't save in spite of people's lack of knowledge, or their theological abuse (I considered most Arminians lied to, not really knowing a lot better)?


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## rembrandt (May 27, 2004)

[quote:fae97989b2][i:fae97989b2]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:fae97989b2]
Is Norman Geisler a Christian? [/quote:fae97989b2]

He does a great service by leading people to truth through his aweful books. I converted to Calvinism by seeing the idolarty in his &quot;Chosen But Free.&quot; Who can read that garbage and remain an Arminian?


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## pastorway (May 27, 2004)

We must be careful that we do not fall into the trap of labelling everyone an Arminian just because they are not five point calvinists! There are not many true full-blooded arminians around you know (holding the five points of Arminius). There are many Christians who are immature in the faith and understanding, who have trusted Christ by faith alone, but are still drinking milk when they should have moved on to meat.

How many of us were saved long before we understood the doctrines of grace? I was saved YEARS before becoming reformed. So why doubt that my friends who are not reformed are not saved just because they are not degreed in theology??

This is pride, pure and simple!

I quoted Charles Spurgeon on the back of our church bulletin a few Sundays ago. I was preaching a message titled &quot;I Believe, Help My Unbelief!&quot; from Mark 9. Spurgeon said of TRUE FAITH in that very text:

[quote:c5aebfaf73]Very clearly in the text there is TRUE FAITH. &quot;Lord, I believe,&quot; says the anxious father. When our Lord tells him that, if he can believe, all things are possible to him, he makes no demur, asks for no pause, wishes to hear no more evidence, but cries at once, &quot;Lord, I believe.&quot; 

Now, observe we have called this faith true faith, and we will prove it to have been so. [b:c5aebfaf73]First, it was faith in the person of Christ. [u:c5aebfaf73]It is a great mistake to fancy that to endorse sound doctrine is the same thing as possessing saving faith[/u:c5aebfaf73], for while saving faith accepts the truth of God, it mainly concerns itself with the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and its essence lies in reliance upon Jesus himself. [u:c5aebfaf73]I am not saved because I believe the Scriptures, or because I believe the doctrines of grace, but I am saved if I believe Christ; or, in other words, trust in him[/u:c5aebfaf73]. Jesus is my creed. He is the truth. In the highest sense the Lord Jesus is the Word of God. To know him is life eternal[/b:c5aebfaf73]. 

By his knowledge he justifies many. I do not know that the father in the narrative before us had heard many sermons. I am not sure that he had very clear notions about everything that concerned the Savior's kingdom: it was not essential that he should have in order to obtain a cure for his son. It was a very desirable thing that he should be an instructed disciple, but in the emergency before us the main thing was that he should believe Christ to be both able and willing to cast the devil out of his son. Up to that point he did believe; and, though his faith may have been deficient as well in breadth as in-depth, yet it enabled him to realize that the Messiah who stood before him was the Lord, and it led him to place all his reliance upon him. He did not believe in the disciples; he had once trusted them and failed. He did not believe in himself; he knew his own impotence to drive out the evil spirit from his child. He believed no longer in any medicines or men, for doubtless he had spent much on physicians; but he believed the man of the shining countenance who had just come down from the mountain. When he heard him say, &quot;If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth,&quot; he at once said, &quot;Lord, I believe.&quot;[/quote:c5aebfaf73]

Men are saved when God calls them to life by His Spirit and gives them repentance and faith. They are not saved because they have all their theology figured out. As Spurgeon stated we must never fall for the deception that to embrace sound doctrine is the same as possessing saving faith! The gospel demands not theological scholarship for salvation, but faith in Christ.

Eternal life is KNOWING Jesus, it is trusting Him!

Phillip

[Edited on 5-28-04 by pastorway]


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## Craig (May 27, 2004)

When I was &quot;arminian&quot;, I hated Calvinism (my idea of what I thought Calvinism was). I hated it because I thought they were crazy to think God thought they were so special He predestined them....I knew I was a putrid sinner deserving nothing. I was very confused about theology, and was way off, of course. There are many with straw man ideas of what Calvinism is. As a result, they reject it while affirming it while reading scripture and praying!

Can people with the wrong ideas be saved? Yes. To say otherwise is even more dangerous and becomes a sort of gnosticism.


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## robot (May 27, 2004)

I only know one other Christian who is a Calvinist. All my friends who are Christians are Arminians, but good kids


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## Learner (May 28, 2004)

*A BIG AMEN!Phillip.*

I wholehearedly agree with you.Most of us were Arminian in our thinking to some degree when saved. But we were indeed regenerated.I was decades in the faith before I fully
embraced the Doctrine(s)of Grace.It is a long slow process for some of us.But it is all in His Divine appointment.We are following God's calendar.
There is a pride factor with some Calvinists.How strange that is when we preach and teach our natural depravity and
wormliness!We need humility.I will use the personal pronoun.
&quot;i&quot;need himility.(humility is needed in this e-mailer).We should adorn the doctrines we espouse.


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## Learner (May 28, 2004)

*Are any of you familiar with...*

...the website:&quot;Outside The Camp&quot;?They go too far in their
zeal for Calvinistic purity.They have determined who is in ,and who is out of the Lord's fold.God makes that determination.I personally know one of the folks hooked -up with them.He denounced me years ago.He said if I tolerated
Arminianism I was lost.I tolerate it only in the sense that anyone can speak their mind.I do not support ,but expose the follies of Arminianism.Yet I know many misguided Christians who are not willing to study God's Word.That is sin.These folks need to be confronted in a loving an meek fashion.I am guilty of not being so meek and loving sometimes in my interactions.I wanted to ram the truth down their throats.But my actions were sinful though they had wrongly-held soteriology(sp?).Oh balance!I need that.I'm
drifting.On to your reactions.


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## FrozenChosen (May 28, 2004)

[quote:129a93bdbc][i:129a93bdbc]Originally posted by Learner[/i:129a93bdbc]
I wholehearedly agree with you.Most of us were Arminian in our thinking to some degree when saved. But we were indeed regenerated.I was decades in the faith before I fully
embraced the Doctrine(s)of Grace.It is a long slow process for some of us.But it is all in His Divine appointment.We are following God's calendar.
There is a pride factor with some Calvinists.How strange that is when we preach and teach our natural depravity and
wormliness!We need humility.I will use the personal pronoun.
&quot;i&quot;need himility.(humility is needed in this e-mailer).We should adorn the doctrines we espouse. [/quote:129a93bdbc]

Tim,

I hear that!

My biggest struggle has always been a prideful heart, and that was [b:129a93bdbc]before[/b:129a93bdbc] God made me a Calvinist!


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## rembrandt (May 28, 2004)

Lets not forget that those (most Arminians) who call Calvinists heretics are heretics themselves since they are rejecting the word of God and fellowship with the Church. They need to be silenced and disciplined. But that doens't mean they aren't saved, only that they are heretics.


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## blhowes (May 28, 2004)

OK. I'm gonna need some help here...

I was just wondering something about Matthew's post. Is it one of those &quot;trick questions&quot; that he may have thrown into the mix to get us to think? He wouldn't do that, would he? 

In reading through his post quickly and answering the questions without giving them much thought, you could be led to believe that Matthew thinks that all Arminians are unsaved. I kind of sort of don't think that's what he believes. 

I'm reminded of a quote from one of Spurgeon's sermons, called &quot;The Root of the Matter&quot;, which I think (?) Matthew would probably agree with:
[quote:0a6564e8a6]Though Calvinistic doctrine is so dear to us, we feel ready to die in its defense, yet we would by no means set it up as being a test of a man's spiritual state.[/quote:0a6564e8a6]
So, if he IS trying to get us to think, then what is it that Matthew is trying to get us to think about? Here's my guess, maybe others can think of something else that he may be getting at.

It seems like the majority of the post rests on the validity of his first statement, &quot;[b:0a6564e8a6]If[/b:0a6564e8a6] justification is conditional upon believing the truth...&quot;. If this is true, then the rest follows. If its not true, the rest may not follow. 

The question is, is our justification conditional upon what we believe? Is it safe to say that I believe X, Y, and Z, therefore I know I'm justified? In its bare bones essence, what is needed for justification? Most of us I think believe that even an infant can be regenerated and justified, long before their systematic theology is well established. Could this be the kind of thing that Matthew, if he is trying to get us to think, is trying to get us to think about?

Cautiously wondering about Matthew's post,
Bob

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by blhowes]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 28, 2004)

[quote:cb928aad67]First, it was faith in the person of Christ. It is a great mistake to fancy that to endorse sound doctrine is the same thing as possessing saving faith, for while saving faith accepts the truth of God, it mainly concerns itself with the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and its essence lies in reliance upon Jesus himself. I am not saved because I believe the Scriptures, or because I believe the doctrines of grace, but I am saved if I believe Christ; or, in other words, trust in him. Jesus is my creed. He is the truth. In the highest sense the Lord Jesus is the Word of God. To know him is life eternal.[/quote:cb928aad67]

Sound slike Spurgeon is saying - it doe snot matter what you believe (It is a great mistake to fancy that to endorse sound doctrine is the same thing as possessing saving faith) and then says you have to have &quot;faith&quot; (for while saving faith accepts the truth of God, it mainly concerns itself with the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and its essence lies in reliance upon Jesus himself). Then again he goes back to saying he is saved no by beleiving, but by faith (but I am saved if I believe Christ). Then he says &quot;To know him is life eternal&quot;. To know?? Knowing = beleiving, but he told us we just needed faith. I have double talk like that which is not thought out well. (Bad quote Phillip!!) Don't listen to Spurgeon there - he is not thinking straight.

What do the Gospels say about being saved?

How about just the Gospel of John?

John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might [b:cb928aad67]believe. [/b:cb928aad67]

John 1:50 Jesus answered and said to him, &quot;Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you [b:cb928aad67]believe? [/b:cb928aad67]

John 3:12 &quot;If I have told you earthly things and you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67], how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 3:18 He who [b:cb928aad67]believes[/b:cb928aad67] in Him is not condemned; but he who does not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] is condemned already, because he has not [b:cb928aad67]believed[/b:cb928aad67] in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.&quot;

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, &quot;Woman, [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67].

John 5:46-47 &quot;For if you [b:cb928aad67]believed[/b:cb928aad67] Moses, you would [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 &quot;But if you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] his writings, how will you [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] My words?&quot; 

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, [b:cb928aad67]&quot;This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.&quot;[/b:cb928aad67]

John 6:36 &quot;But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67].

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67].&quot; For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67], and who would betray Him.

John 6:69 Also we have come to [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.&quot;

John 7:5 For even His brothers did not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in Him.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] that I am He, you will die in your sins.&quot; 

John 8:45 &quot;But because I tell the truth, you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me.

John 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me?

John 9:35 &quot;Do you [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in the Son of God?&quot;

John 9:36 He answered and said, &quot;Who is He, Lord, that I may [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in Him?&quot;

John 9:38 Then he said, &quot;Lord, I [b:cb928aad67]believe!&quot;[/b:cb928aad67] And he worshiped Him.

John 10:25-26 Jesus answered them, &quot;I told you, and you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67]. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 &quot;But you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67], because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 

John 10:37-38 &quot;If I do not do the works of My Father, do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me; 38 &quot;but if I do, though you do not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me, [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] the works, that you may know and [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.&quot;

John 11:26-27 &quot;And whoever lives and [b:cb928aad67]believes[/b:cb928aad67] in Me shall never die. Do you [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] this?&quot; 27 She said to Him, &quot;Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.&quot; 

John 11:42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] that You sent Me.&quot;

John 12:36 &quot;While you have the light, [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in the light, that you may become sons of light.&quot; 

John 13:19 &quot;Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] that I am He.

John 14:1 &quot;Let not your heart be troubled; you [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in God, [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] also in Me.

John 14:10-11 Do you not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 &quot;[b:cb928aad67]Believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] Me for the sake of the works themselves.

John 14:29 And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67].

OK, I'll stop there. There are tons more. Do you think beleiving is important to salvation? Is it importnat to believe something specific? or does it not matter?

If anyone does not [b:cb928aad67]believe[/b:cb928aad67] in the One whom God has sent, can they be saved? No, they cannot.

If God regenerates a man &quot;X&quot; and man &quot;X&quot; is [b:cb928aad67]truly[/b:cb928aad67] saved, will he not believe in the One whom God has sent as dictated by beleiving in the Scriptures? or is he allowed ot believe heresy and be saved?

Can one not believe the truth and be saved?

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by webmaster]


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## panicbird (May 28, 2004)

[quote:ccf34d1d23][i:ccf34d1d23]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:ccf34d1d23]
If justification is conditional upon beleiving the truth (faith in the One God has sent), and Arminians do not believe the truth, do you think they can really be saved? Is the Jesus of Arminianism, even today's Evangelical Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible? If he is not, how COULD they be saved? If it is, are Reformed Christians decieved? [/quote:ccf34d1d23]

How far shall we take this? Shall we push it to its limit and say that there is no room for error? Paedobaptists and credobaptists could launch volleys at each other saying that the other has not submitted himself to the plain teaching of Scripture. Therefore, since belief in the truth is requisite for salvation, the other person must not be saved. This could be taken to any number of extremes.

I understand what you are saying (you cannot just &quot;have faith&quot, but would say that none of us were saved until we embraced Reformed theology? And how far does one have to embrace Reformed theology to be saved: 3 points, 4 points, 5 points, paedo, presuppositionalist? At what point does one say, &quot;OK, you have believed enough truth to be saved&quot;?

Lon


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## rembrandt (May 28, 2004)

I think it is better to say that Arminians (who happen to be Christians) who don't accept Calvinism are just thinking inconsistently. They believe the doctrines of grace at heart, but their logical abilities to come to those conclusions in their mind are just not completely worked out yet. But if they are in opposition to the [i:66c62b60b7]fundamental ideas[/i:66c62b60b7] behind Calvinism, then I don't know how they could be saved. I like to use the phrase that the Roman Church uses on us: &quot;lost brethren.&quot; 

Heretics can very easily be Christian. If not, we have to do away with some of the Chruch Fathers.

Rembrandt


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## pastorway (May 28, 2004)

So Matt, what is it that you have to [b:f69a5ac83a]believe[/b:f69a5ac83a] in order to be saved?

One can believe sound doctrine and still be lost!

It isn't theology, systematics, or the doctrines of grace that save.

You have to believe, trust, have as the object of your faith, the Person of Jesus Christ.[b:f69a5ac83a] Believe in Jesus.[/b:f69a5ac83a]

That is what Spurgeon is saying. You have to know Christ.

When the Philippian jailor cried out, &quot;What must I do to be saved?&quot; Paul did not answer, &quot;Get all of your theology figured out so you are sure you are believing the truth and then you will be saved.&quot; NO. Paul replied simply, &quot;Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.&quot;

To be saved you must believe a Person, not a system. God knows we start on milk and move to meat, and to deny that one is saved just because they are still drinking milk (and even refusing to move on to meat) is to have big problems with the things Paul wrote to the NT church.

He did not address them as lost when they were off theologically (and almost every letter we have in the NT was written to a church with serious errors). He addressed them as having trusted Christ, as elect, as saved, and needing to move on to deeper things.

One can take your posts in this thread to say that anyone who is not a calvinist is not saved, and that is simply a denial of the very gospel itself.

Matt, do you believe that a person can be saved and not be a calvinist? 

Phillip


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## alwaysreforming (May 29, 2004)

Wholeheartedly agree with Philip on this one (and Spurgeon), sorry Matt!

What Spurgeon is saying is that we must believe the HEART of the Gospel, the person and work of Jesus Christ. As far as how that person and work of Jesus Christ are worked out in doctrine, well that is another matter, and though it is eventually inescapable, is not immediately required for true saving faith to be present.

In order to possess saving faith, we must believe, and trust, in Jesus Christ as our Saviour between us and a Holy God. We must not bring any of ourselves into the equation (not our righteousness, but trusting completely in His.)

Where the uneducated, or the &quot;new&quot; Christian, or perhaps the Arminian, may be off would be in the &quot;implications&quot; stemming from the person and work of Christ. In other words, how it would be worked out and affect other points such as the doctrines of grace. Surely we do not dare say that these doctrines must come before a person can actually believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I believe that this is all Spurgeon, and perhaps PastorWay, are saying.


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## rembrandt (May 29, 2004)

[quote:1087e24f05]But if they are in [b:1087e24f05]opposition to the [i:1087e24f05]fundamental ideas[/i:1087e24f05] behind Calvinism[/b:1087e24f05], then I don't know how they could be saved.[/quote:1087e24f05]


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## Ianterrell (May 29, 2004)

There are clearly flaws in Spurgeon. It isn't his intent that bothers me. Phillip I agree with your [i:3fa6337ffc]intent[/i:3fa6337ffc]. But as Spurgeon says quoting our Lord Jesus, knowing God is eternal life. So what do we have to believe about Jesus? We must believe some essential things abouit him to be saved! I don't think the doctrines of election, or God's complete sovereignty are those essential things either. Actually it is the argument that it is belief in Jesus that saves needs further clarification. Believe what?

Should we assume that someone like Finney who denied the [i:3fa6337ffc]doctrine of justification[/i:3fa6337ffc] is saved. I would say we should assume he is not! He does not believe in the Gospel you see. 

[Edited on 5-29-2004 by Ianterrell]


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## Irishcat922 (May 29, 2004)

As I wrote on another post, I love Keith Green's music, it is very aminian, but alot of it is very encouraging to me to strive for a deeper level of personal holiness in my life.


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## king of fools (May 29, 2004)

When I was a new arminian Christian, I never heard a good word about Calvinism. Through a wierd string of events, I ended up going to Douglas Wilson's church once in Moscow, ID and had a semester-long Bible study with the leader of the campus crudase for Christ, who happened to be reformed himself. God was able to get some nuggets into my head and I began to study with new eyes after that.

Was I saved before I came to knowledge of the doctrines of grace? I certainly think so. Therefore, I have to admit that my arminian friends and family are inconsistent in their theoogy, but very often just ignorant to the Word of God.


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## luvroftheWord (May 29, 2004)

I think this is a good quote.

[quote:4eec63d480]
&quot;All who are baptized into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, recognizing the Trinity of Persons in the Godhead, the incarnation of the Son and his priestly sacrifice, whether they be Greeks, or Arminians, or Romanists, or Lutherans, or Calvinists, or the simple souls who do not know what to call themselves, are our brethren. Baptism is our common countersign. It is the common rallying standard at the head of our several columns.&quot; (A.A. Hodge, Evangelical Theology, p. 338)
[/quote:4eec63d480]


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## rembrandt (May 29, 2004)

While Arminians are our brethren, it does not follow that we are to have Christian fellowship with them. If they call Calvinists heretics, then they themselves have stoney hearts and must be shunned until they are repentant. But not having &quot;Christian fellowship&quot; does not imply that we can't be friends with them on a lesser level.

If the Reformed community got a little bigger, I wouldn't mind us placing a rod of discipline over them. It is the duty of the Church to make doctrinal proclaimations. We are not to be sympathetic because someone who 'could' be a Christian is disobedient. The whole purpose of excommunication is in the hope that the person you are excommunicating actually is a Christian, so that they will repent and rejoin fellowship.

Paul


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## rembrandt (May 29, 2004)

*READ THIS*

[b:c265abceb7]The whole idea of whether they are Christians or not, is IRRELEVENT.[/b:c265abceb7] IT DOES NOT MATTER! What matters is whether they are submissive to the Church or not. Paul never told us to desipher who is or who isn't saved. He only told us to desipher who or who isn't believing and practicing 'true' doctrine. We are not to make the assumption (according to Paul) that someone isn't saved because of such and such; only that they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven with the way they are [i:c265abceb7]presently[/i:c265abceb7] acting: and therefore must be disciplined appropriately.

Paul


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

Why should we tolerate those who misunderstand their own &quot;salvation&quot; and pervert the gospel?

&quot;First, God has promised certainly his grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. but a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation.&quot;
--Martin Luther, [u:b3d24d90af]The Bondage of the Will[/u:b3d24d90af] 

As for me, I agree with Luther. Arminianism attributes to man that which is due to God, therefore it is a false and demonic system of religion, just like Islam, just like Astrology.


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## pastorway (May 30, 2004)

Hogwash, LOTW (and AA Hodge). Baptism means nothing without belief. If we do not have a common faith then baptism is just an empty ritual.

This is, by the way, the same position that Doug Wilson will be arguing in his debate with James White. A debate that I hope will open a lot of eyes to the terrible doctrine behind this idea that Rome has a valid baptism. A &quot;church&quot; that denies the very gospel itself surely is not baptising disciples of Jesus Christ, but disciples of Bablylon.

As for the rest of this thread, what do we have to believe about Jesus? The Bible says nothing of believing [i:669e3876ba]about[/i:669e3876ba] Him. It says we trust Him. We believe Him. We take Him at His Word when He says that if we come and repent and believe, calling on Him and confessing Him as Lord, then we will be saved. We trust that He is the only Way to the Father, the only Way to the forgiveness of sins.

Faith in Christ is not the same as understanding or grasping the details of every doctrine about His Person and Work! Faith in Christ is knowing Him. How many people do we know and trust, even not knowing everything about them?

Salvation does not require belief in sovereignty, or any of the rest of the doctrines of grace. Salvation is as simple as believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Let's not add to the gospel.

That is also why we are told to make disciples teaching them everything that Jesus said and taught. They are already disciples, having trusted Him, long before they have been taught all there is to know.....if any of us will ever get there in this life. We start out as babes and need to grow up in grace.

Salvation does not require maturity at first, it requires childlike faith in the Person of Jesus.

Please, let us refrain from lumping every non-calvinist into the same camp as Islamists and Occultists. That is simply ludicrous, judgmental, and plain wrong.

Let's not make the simple gospel of grace more complicated than it is.

Phillip


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

[quote:251ee15d4d]
We trust that He is the only Way to the Father, the only Way to the forgiveness of sins. 
[/quote:251ee15d4d]

That statement is incompatible with Arminianism.

[quote:251ee15d4d]
Let's not make the simple gospel of grace more complicated than it is. 
[/quote:251ee15d4d]

Let's not make the simple gospel of grace more simple than it is.

[Edited on (5/30/04) by Authorised]


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## Puritan Sailor (May 30, 2004)

So did the thief on the cross understand the 5 points and 5 Solas?


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

Yes, the thief read and understood Calvin's Institutes along with all of reformed theology just before he died.

Let's not be silly. 

The thief sure didn't attribute his salvation to himself, but rather called Christ &quot;Lord.&quot; I would dare say he understood more about God's sovereignty in that moment than all the reformers combined.

I don't remember anyone on this thread stating that the 5 solas were salvation. Enough with the straw man.

What about the analogy our Lord gave when he said a good tree produces good fruit? Arminianism isn't just as much from the pit just because some think it is a little less rotten than Islam or the Occult. They're all lies which originate from the same source.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 30, 2004)

[quote:eba164f146][i:eba164f146]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:eba164f146]
I don't remember anyone on this thread stating that the 5 solas were salvation. Enough with the straw man.
[/quote:eba164f146]
Chill out man. I wasn't refering to you. I was trying to provoke more discussion in this thread. 

Some imply that you must hold to the reformed faith to be saved, others that a lesser degree of doctrinal clarity is sufficient. I simply would like to know how this dilemma worked itself out in the life of a saint who only had a few hours of interaction with Jesus in this life. What did the thief understand?


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## blhowes (May 30, 2004)

[b:059cbc0085]Pastor Way wrote:[/b:059cbc0085]
This is, by the way, the same position that Doug Wilson will be arguing in his debate with James White. A debate that I hope will open a lot of eyes to the terrible doctrine behind this idea that Rome has a valid baptism. A &quot;church&quot; that denies the very gospel itself surely is not baptising disciples of Jesus Christ, but disciples of Babylon.

I'm looking forward to hearing the debate. It should be interesting. BTW, I was wondering if most reformed denominations consider the Roman Catholic baptism to be valid? I got the impression that they do, but then somehow I got another impression that its up to the individual church. 

Just wondering,
Bob


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

[quote:47c27e8440]
Chill out man. I wasn't refering to you. 
[/quote:47c27e8440]

Sorry, that came out a little rougher than I meant it. It WAS 4 o'clock this morning though...probably explains why.


Isn't saying that Rome doesn't have a valid baptism somewhat the same as the Donatist heresy (which nearly destroyed the church)? I think it was finally Augustine who set things straight between both sets of bishops.


Must leave for church now.

[Edited on (5/30/04) by Authorised]


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## luvroftheWord (May 30, 2004)

[quote:4f954eb410]Hogwash, LOTW (and AA Hodge). Baptism means nothing without belief. If we do not have a common faith then baptism is just an empty ritual.[/quote:4f954eb410]

Well, I'm in good company, so I'll stick with Hodge on this one, Phillip.

And thank you for trying to poison the well against me by bringing up the guy everybody hates, Doug Wilson.

And also, your statement about baptism begs the question because you don't hold a sacramental view of baptism to begin with. I reject any view of baptism that makes the validity of baptism contingent upon the person being baptized.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.


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## fredtgreco (May 30, 2004)

[quote:1eea1a3d07][i:1eea1a3d07]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:1eea1a3d07]
[quote:1eea1a3d07]Hogwash, LOTW (and AA Hodge). Baptism means nothing without belief. If we do not have a common faith then baptism is just an empty ritual.[/quote:1eea1a3d07]

Well, I'm in good company, so I'll stick with Hodge on this one, Phillip.

And thank you for trying to poison the well against me by bringing up the guy everybody hates, Doug Wilson.

And also, your statement about baptism begs the question because you don't hold a sacramental view of baptism to begin with. I reject any view of baptism that makes the validity of baptism contingent upon the person being baptized.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. [/quote:1eea1a3d07]

Baptism does mean something without belief (at the time).

But I will stick with Dabney/Thornwell on this one.


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## blhowes (May 30, 2004)

[b:09173f0206]Craig wrote:[/b:09173f0206]
And also, your statement about baptism begs the question because you don't hold a sacramental view of baptism to begin with. I reject any view of baptism that makes the validity of baptism contingent upon the person being baptized.

I hope folks don't mind this little rabbit trail too much, but this is something that I've really been wondering about. I know its probably not something that can be put into a short post, but can somebody explain the sacramental view of baptism? What is it about the catholic baptism that makes it valid? Is it just because they use the &quot;trinitarian formula&quot;?

A while ago, somebody (can't remember who), started a thread and the common consensus seemed to be that a baptism performed by a believing parent wasn't valid because it wasn't performed by somebody who is ordained. I'm at a loss to understand this. On the one hand, you have a believing parent baptizing a believing child (if my memory serves me correctly) according to Matthew 28, using the &quot;trinitarian formula&quot;, and this is not considered valid. Then, on the other hand, you have a priest (in a church that the Savoy confession anyway considers to be of the antiChrist - and I guess the Westminster did at one time as well) baptizing an infant of an unbeliever, and that is considered valid. I don't understand.

(BTW. I'm not saying that all catholics are unbelievers. I'm just basing the statement on their official teachings.)

Bob


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

Found this in a forum on BaptistFire:

&quot;The god of Calvinism is much closer to the character of Satan than the true God of the Bible. 

The god of Calvinism is a god of Hate, and certainly cannot ever be accused of the Biblical attribute, 

GOD IS LOVE. &quot;

Is anyone here willing to say that this man is saved?

Anyone who wants to defend this man will go to hell for your trouble.


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## rembrandt (May 30, 2004)

[quote:417e8cf9bf][i:417e8cf9bf]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:417e8cf9bf]
Found this in a forum on BaptistFire:

&quot;The god of Calvinism is much closer to the character of Satan than the true God of the Bible. 

The god of Calvinism is a god of Hate, and certainly cannot ever be accused of the Biblical attribute, 

GOD IS LOVE. &quot;

Is anyone here willing to say that this man is saved?

Anyone who wants to defend this man will go to hell for your trouble. [/quote:417e8cf9bf]

What if the man only read a couple sentences about Calvinism, say on the subject of reprobation. Well, if thats all someone had to go on, you could expect them to not like it. The ignorant person who just heard a couple sentences needs to work out the implications of God's sovereignty, and then understand how election and reprobation is good. 

I'm sure the fellow who wrote that knows more than two facts about Calvinism. If he knows all of the facts, and still calls it heresy, then yeah, I don't suppose we could think he is regenerate. But lets leave the door open for those who are ignorant and speak on the impulse of their ignorance: they have just yet to learn. But for those like the fellow who calls God &quot;Satan&quot;, let him be anethema.

Paul


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## Authorised (May 30, 2004)

I think that's fairly reasonable. I never meant to say that an Arminian could NOT be saved, but I think someone who is confronted once and once again concerning this, and yet is hardened continually against plain teaching of scripture, that soul cannot, in my estimation, be a child of God; seeing their error is no longer misunderstanding or ignorance but rather a damning heresy.


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