# RPW Support of Hymns



## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

This is primarily for those who would argue that the RPW allows for the singing of hymns during worship, but anybody's welcome to 'have at it'.
How does scripture justify the creation of hymns to be sung during a worship service? 

What are the main scriptural arguments in favor of singing hymns?

If any of you have been to a service where you thought the music was inappropriate for worship (I'm thinking some of the more contemporary styles), what principles that allow for hymn singing would rule out the more contemporary venues?​
(My main reason for digging into this is to nail down what the scriptures teach about music in worship. A church I visited recently had some good preaching, but the music I had to tolerate - bending of guitar strings is cool to listen to, but not at church. I'd much prefer to listen to hymns than that type of music. But if that's just my preference, the argument against bending strings, etc. is weak. In a worship service, my preference is immaterial.)


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## AV1611 (Apr 27, 2008)

Whilst I adhere to EP this will get the ball rolling for you:



blhowes said:


> What are the main scriptural arguments in favor of singing hymns?



Generally the argument comes from a few angles. (1) They will argue that we are commanded to sing "new songs" and this then gives us warrant to compose our own. (2) They will point to Revelation where songs are sung that are not Psalms. (3) They may point to 'hymn fragments' in the New Testament. 

All of these are weak and can be easily dealt with but I will refrain from doing so.......


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> Whilst I adhere to EP this will get the ball rolling for you:


Thanks for getting the ball rolling.


AV1611 said:


> Generally the argument comes from a few angles. (1) They will argue that we are commanded to sing "new songs" and this then gives us warrant to compose our own.


I was thinking about this one earlier this morning and searched the Bible for the phrase "new song". The search brought up 9 verses, one of which was:

Psa 98:1 <A Psalm.> O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. 

I thought this might be one justification, but I wondered whether that was really what the Psalmist was getting at. He had composed a new song unto the Lord, that new song is inspired and was subsequently used in worship, was He actually telling those in the temple/synagogue (or wherever they sang they Psalms) to go out and write new songs? What was meant here and in the other scriptures when it said to sing a new song?


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## fredtgreco (Apr 27, 2008)

Bob,

Here is an article by Rev. Stephen Pribble:

The Regulative Principle and Singing in Worship

You might also be interested to note that it is the position of Dr. Carl Bogue, who was recently cited here on the PB for his excellent summary of the RPW:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/regulative-principle-important-worship-carl-bogue-32046/

Just thought I would get a resource in before the inevitable EP pile-on.


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> Bob,
> 
> Here is an article by Rev. Stephen Pribble:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links. I look forward to checking them out.


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## AV1611 (Apr 27, 2008)

blhowes said:


> What was meant here and in the other scriptures when it said to sing a new song?



Psalm 96 and 98 both contain the phrase "new song" and neither refers to constructing new songs. What is being exhorted is the singing of songs that are new to that person. Psalm 96 is a core missionary psalm and is eschatological looking forward to the gospel dispensation. Here, Israel is sounding forth the encouragement to gentiles to forsake their idols and turn to Jehovah. God is, through Israel, calling upon the gentiles to sing a new song, a song that as heathen, and strangers to the covenants and commonwealth, they have never sung before. The gentiles are being urged to sing unto Jehovah, i.e. to submit to the king (note these psalms fall in the block of Psalms 90-100 where the focus is on God's kingship over all nations) and take his praise upon their lips.

_Simply:_ the phrase "new song" is "repent, have faith in Christ" in poetic form. All the earth is exhorted to be converted and so "sing unto the LORD a new song".

The inscription in the Syriac version for Psalm 96 is, "a Psalm of David, a Prophecy of the coming of the Messiah, and of the calling of the Gentiles that believe in him''. The inscription of the Syriac version calls Psalm 98 "a Psalm of David, concerning the redemption of the people out of Egypt, when they conquered and triumphed;'' adding "but spiritually a prophecy concerning the coming of Christ, and the calling of the Gentiles unto the faith.''


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 27, 2008)

This is of course the question proposed for our still elusive Worship Song debate between Matthew Winzer and Andy Webb: *Question: Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
*Lord willing schedules can clear and this can be undertaken later this year; right now it is at the "it happens when it can happens" point.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 27, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> Bob,
> 
> Here is an article by Rev. Stephen Pribble:
> 
> ...


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## Zadok (Apr 27, 2008)

Perhaps we should ask the same questions with regard to prayer, preaching etc.. Why get hung up only on the singing? Or is there anything in the RPW which makes singing an especially spiritual exercise which needs to be protected more than any other element of worship?


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## py3ak (Apr 27, 2008)

I think the argument would go that we are commanded to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and hymn-singers are unconvinced that this is a reference to the titles of the Psalms (which is a discussion all by itself). From those same texts (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) it is plain to see that singing is a form of teaching, and of course since many of the Psalms are prayers it seems that prayers may also be sung. Now the content of prayer and teaching is regulated by the Scripture; but the exact expressions are not (in the sense that we can vary the phrasing, not in the sense that we can babble unorthodoxy). So in our teaching and praying through song we have the same freedom as in our teaching and praying through words. Therefore, uninspired compositions may be used for singing in the corporate worship of God. Or so the argument would typically run.


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

Zadok said:


> Perhaps we should ask the same questions with regard to prayer, preaching etc..


I'm fine with that...but not in MY thread!! (jk)



Zadok said:


> Why get hung up only on the singing? Or is there anything in the RPW which makes singing an especially spiritual exercise which needs to be protected more than any other element of worship?


Actually, I think any of those - prayer, preaching, etc. - could have a thread of their own, focused on the same type of questions. It doesn't happen in reformed churches, but how many of you have ever seen cute little cartoons displayed on an overhead during a sermon? A seminary-trained preacher displaying cartoons in an overhead? The same questions I'm asking about music run through my head when I see such things - what guidelines does the Bible give? 

So, I'd agree each part of the worship service should have equal time in the scrutiny department.


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## N. Eshelman (Apr 27, 2008)

blhowes said:


> (My main reason for digging into this is to nail down what the scriptures teach about music in worship. A church I visited recently had some good preaching, but the music I had to tolerate - bending of guitar strings is cool to listen to, but not at church. I'd much prefer to listen to hymns than that type of music. But if that's just my preference, the argument against bending strings, etc. is weak. In a worship service, my preference is immaterial.)



I do not think that the making of hymns is biblical for public worship, but if you are NOT non-instrumental, what biblical ground is there against guitars or 'that type of music'??


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

py3ak said:


> I think the argument would go that we are commanded to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and hymn-singers are unconvinced that this is a reference to the titles of the Psalms (which is a discussion all by itself). From those same texts (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) it is plain to see that singing is a form of teaching, and of course since many of the Psalms are prayers it seems that prayers may also be sung). Now the content of prayer and teaching is regulated by the Scripture; but the exact expressions are not (in the sense that we can vary the phrasing, not in the sense that we can babble unorthodoxy). So in our teaching and praying through song we have the same freedom as in our teaching and praying through words. Therefore, uninspired compositions may be used for singing in the corporate worship of God. Or so the argument would typically run.


Thank-you, brother. Your argument was convincing and convinced me. Appreciate it.


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

py3ak said:


> <snip> From those same texts (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) it is plain to see... <snip>



I don't want to get off topic, but when you guys read those verses, is it clear to you that they are speaking of the church setting? Does it just jump out at you? (Some/many times I'm a little thick and don't see the obvious)


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## py3ak (Apr 27, 2008)

I don't know that those texts are speaking only of the church setting. Certainly the verses surrounding them have a wider application. But that wouldn't mean they don't apply in the church setting as well. And on the score of their relevance, I think EP and non-EP alike are agreed that they must be taken into consideration.


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> I do not think that the making of hymns is biblical for public worship, but if you are NOT non-instrumental, what biblical ground is there against guitars or 'that type of music'??


Nathan, good question. I've been wondering that in parallel with the hymn questions I've asked. Questions asked about songs we sing should also be asked about instrument usage, what does the Bible teach?


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

py3ak said:


> I don't know that those texts are speaking only of the church setting. Certainly the verses surrounding them have a wider application. But that wouldn't mean they don't apply in the church setting as well. And on the score of their relevance, I think EP and non-EP alike are agreed that they must be taken into consideration.


Agreed. The wider application is what jumps out at me, which of course wouldn't exclude it from Sunday mornings.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 27, 2008)

blhowes said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > <snip> From those same texts (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) it is plain to see... <snip>
> ...




Thing is if you look at a lot of old Psalters they have these two verses on the title page as "source texts".


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## blhowes (Apr 27, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > py3ak said:
> ...


Maybe they are good source texts. There's always the possibility (ever so slim that it may be) that just because I don't see it doesn't mean its not there.


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## Zadok (Apr 27, 2008)

blhowes said:


> Zadok said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps we should ask the same questions with regard to prayer, preaching etc..
> ...



Sorry. Was not trying to hijack your thread.

If you want to see a good case for Hymns please refer to:-

 Singing Hymns in Reformed Worship 

The main points of the argument are very good. There are aspects of the artcle that I would prefer to see reworked .. but this is a good start.


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## AV1611 (Apr 28, 2008)

py3ak said:


> I think the argument would go that we are commanded to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and hymn-singers are unconvinced that this is a reference to the titles of the Psalms (which is a discussion all by itself).



_1stly_, one needs to find out how they (non-EPers) are providing a definition for these terms. _2ndly_, the EP case does not rest on these two verses. 



py3ak said:


> From those same texts (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) it is plain to see that singing is a form of teaching, and of course since many of the Psalms are prayers it seems that prayers may also be sung.



There are some huge leaps of logic made in this type of argument. Singing Psalms will undoubtedly teach but that does not mean that the minister is to sing his sermon. Furthermore, whilst some of the prayers have their _sitz im leben_ as a prayer they were compilled into the Psalter which in its current form was the hymnbook of the second temple. Those prayers included in the Psalter were inspired by God and were included under the inspiration of God to be used as songs. This does not give any warrant to sing prayers of human composition. There is also a confusion of elements, prayer and song are different elements of worship and so are regulated differently.


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## AV1611 (Apr 28, 2008)

Zadok said:


> If you want to see a good case for Hymns please refer to:-
> 
> Singing Hymns in Reformed Worship



This article has many flaws. His arguments used to argue against the view that the Confession restricts us to the singing only of the Psalms are weak beyond belief. His analogy with prayer and preaching has been answered many times before. His argument that the Presence of other songs of praise in the canon of Scripture refutes the EP case demonstrates that he really does not understand the EP argument.

His argument "It is also *unlikely* that Paul uses the word 'spiritual' in the verses to mean “inspired by the Holy Spirit” and hence 'scriptural'" seems in my mind to rest upon an assumption!

His argument "The Psalms themselves demand new songs from God’s people to praise him from the heart for the blessings he has showered on them." is clearly an assumption that "new song" means what he wants it to mean with no exegetical evidence provided whatsoever.

And that is just a cursory read!


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## blhowes (Apr 28, 2008)

Zadok said:


> Sorry. Was not trying to hijack your thread.


You of course no I was just kidding, right?


Zadok said:


> If you want to see a good case for Hymns please refer to:-
> 
> Singing Hymns in Reformed Worship
> 
> The main points of the argument are very good. There are aspects of the artcle that I would prefer to see reworked .. but this is a good start.


Thanks for the link.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 28, 2008)

I left a point dealing with his mistakes on the intent of Westminster on psalms vs. Psalms which I have dealt with on my PB blog here:
The Meaning of "Psalm" in the Westminster Standards - The PuritanBoard


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## Zadok (Apr 28, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> ...There is also a confusion of elements, prayer and song are different elements of worship and so are regulated differently.



Prove it.


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## AV1611 (Apr 28, 2008)

Zadok said:


> Prove it.



Have you read Book III of John Gill's _A Body of Practical Divinity_. The relevant sections are:

Chapter 3. Of the Public Ministry of the Word.
Chapter 5. Of Public Prayer.
Chapter 6. Of the Lord's Prayer.
Chapter 7. Of Singing Psalms.

*A relevant quote:* "And singing musically with the voice, as a religious action, is distinct from all other religious acts and exercises. From prayer: James speaks of them as two distinct things in the place before quoted; and so the apostle Paul, when he says, “I will pray with the Spirit, and I will sing with the Spirit also;” or if he means the same, he must be guilty of a very great tautology (1 Cor. 14:15). Paul and Silas in prison, both prayed and sung praises, which are evidently two distinct exercises (Acts 16:25)."

Incidently The LBC of 1689 which you say you adhere to also makes this distinction:

*22. 3 -* Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one part of natural worship, is by God required of all men. But that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to his will; with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; and when with others, in a known tongue.
( Psalms 95:1-7; Psalms 65:2; John 14:13, 14; Romans 8:26; 1 John 5:14; 1 Corinthians 14:16, 17 )

*22.5 -* The reading of the Scriptures, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord; as also the administration of baptism, and the Lord's supper, are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings, and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner.
( 1 Timothy 4:13; 2 Timothy 4:2; Luke 8:18; Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19; Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Esther 4:16; Joel 2:12; Exodus 15:1-19, Psalms 107 )​


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## fredtgreco (Apr 28, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> ...



And you'll see I wasn't disappointed.


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## Zadok (Apr 28, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> Zadok said:
> 
> 
> > Prove it.
> ...



No one is denying that there is a distinction in the elements of a worship service - what I asked specifically for is any biblical evidence that they are regulated differently. And even more specifically for any evidence whatsoever that there is a narrower criteria for songs then for the other elements of a service.


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## blhowes (Apr 28, 2008)

Thank-you for all your inputs. I think I've got enough info to keep me busy for a while. I'm going to bow out of this thread and let you guys continue to discuss stuff and work towards a consensus.


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## py3ak (Apr 28, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > I think the argument would go that we are commanded to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and hymn-singers are unconvinced that this is a reference to the titles of the Psalms (which is a discussion all by itself).
> ...



Richard, you'll notice I didn't say it was a good argument. I said that was how the argument runs.


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## Davidius (Apr 28, 2008)

Zadok said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> > Zadok said:
> ...



If you acknowledge the RPW and don't deny that there are distinctions in elements of worship, then you should not be asking for biblical evidence that the elements are regulated differently. The very nature of the RPW demands that each element be regulated differently. A positive command for one element can't, according to the RPW, apply to anything but the thing included in that command.


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## Zadok (Apr 28, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> There are some huge leaps of logic made in this type of argument.



I think this could equally be said for the EP position.



AV1611 said:


> Singing Psalms will undoubtedly teach but that does not mean that the minister is to sing his sermon.



The verse addresses all believers not the minister in how he is to teach. So your take is a red herring.



AV1611 said:


> Furthermore, whilst some of the prayers have their _sitz im leben_ as a prayer they were compilled into the Psalter which in its current form was the hymnbook of the second temple.



Prove it from the Bible.



AV1611 said:


> Those prayers included in the Psalter were inspired by God and were included under the inspiration of God to be used as songs.



Pure conjecture!



AV1611 said:


> This does not give any warrant to sing prayers of human composition. There is also a confusion of elements, prayer and song are different elements of worship and so are regulated differently.



There are huge leaps in your logic to arrive at this conclusion.


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## Zadok (Apr 28, 2008)

Davidius said:


> If you acknowledge the RPW and don't deny that there are distinctions in elements of worship, then you should not be asking for biblical evidence that the elements are regulated differently. The very nature of the RPW demands that each element be regulated differently. A positive command for one element can't, according to the RPW, apply to anything but the thing included in that command.



There is nothing inherent in the RPW that says that they should be regulated differently. If you insist on this then you had better show me from the Bible that this is the case rather than presuppose it.


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## SolaGratia (Apr 28, 2008)

Below are some articles against EP. 


Is Hymn Singing in Church a Sin

Singing in the Name of Jesus

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spirit


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## AV1611 (Apr 29, 2008)

Zadok said:


> The verse addresses all believers not the minister in how he is to teach. So your take is a red herring.



Your point being what precisely?



Zadok said:


> Prove it from the Bible.



This is a strange form of biblicism indeed. We know that the Psalter was used as a hymnbook of the second temple from the titles of the individual psalms, from internal evidence, and from Jewish writings. 

Try: The Psalms and the Cult, The Compilation of the Book of Psalms and A Form-Critical Classification of the Psalms.

We need to be quite thoughtful about this. The Psalter as we know it took a while to come about. It is also interesting to note that whilst the psalms contained in the psalter may not have been sung in their original setting (e.g. prayers) they were compiled in the psalter and so sung later on. It can get somewhat complex but I would suggest you read The Psalms. By the time you have read and digested these I will have finished my assignments and have some free time. 



Zadok said:


> Pure conjecture!



What are you refering to here. The statement *(a)* Those prayers included in the Psalter were inspired by God or* (b)* and were included under the inspiration of God to be used as songs.


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## AV1611 (Apr 29, 2008)

May I also draw your attention to the following:
*(1)* Articles « ×ª×”×œ×™×
*(2)* Good listening « ×ª×”×œ×™×


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