# my existential struggle with free will vs election



## covrin (Sep 3, 2005)

Due to all the discussion on free will, this seems to be the best place to post this.
I have spent much time looking at this topic from a scriptural and intellectual viewpoint, as I suspect many of you have. I would like to share my existential (or perhaps experiential) struggle with free will vs election.

In recent discussions with a loved friend who perceives the Gospel with a somewhat arminian point of view -
that God entrusts the power of free will and choice to us in regards to our salvation - I was persuaded to
consider changing my view that God choose me and put life within me and patiently pulled me towards Him
from there. The impact of this caused me to question whether I really had made my "choice" fully and
correctly- was I just kidding myself? Was my dramatic conversion some ego-game or trick of the mind? 

The natural conclusion was that God could only keep me safe in His Hand while I was a willing participant and
that scared me, I didn't trust myself that much. I fell into several months of depression, thinking again
that I was not good enough, a misfit, a pretender. If my choice, my exercise of will, was responsible for putting me into His Hands, I feared the madness I know is within me was fully capable of removing me again. 

If my mental capability, my reasoning, is as flawed as I know it is, can it really be trusted to make the right decision in regard to my salvation? Can it be trusted to keep me secure? 



> Blaise Pascal
> Man is but a being filled with error. This error is natural, and, without grace, ineffaceable. Nothing shows him the truth: everything deceives him. These two principles of truth, reason and the senses, besides lacking sincerity, reciprocally deceive each other. The senses deceive reason by false appearances; and just as they cheat reason they are cheated by her in turn: she has her revenge. Passions of the soul trouble the senses, and give them false impressions. They emulously lie and deceive each other.



I ran across this at a pivotal point and it seemed to substantiate my despair. I had, however, overlooked the one small disclaimer he brought in - without grace. Apart from a preemptive work from God, my response to the Gospel would be tainted with erroneous patterns learned since birth, and even perhaps false dispositions planted in my genetic base. If He will not exercise the power to save, I am lost.

Now I have as a "proof-text", my own anguish and despair. The Spirit has cast new light on scripture for me, as if to say "Your mental capabilities _are_ insufficient - take and drink."

I guess I post this here hoping to find others who have struggled, or perhaps are currently struggling, on this level.

[Edited on 9-3-2005 by covrin]


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## turmeric (Sep 3, 2005)

I am one of the least knowledgable here but someone should respond. I've had many an existential struggle, but not from believing in free will. Since my conversion, I simply can't believe in it because I would never have converted myself, I liked my beliefs, wrong as they were. BTW, when were you converted? Sounds like a story there.


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## Contra_Mundum (Sep 3, 2005)

I hope this doesn't seem like too much of a cop-out, but the issue in your case Shay sounds to me like more of an "assurance" matter than a question about how God elects or the function of our willful cooperation properly understood. Does this statement help, and the accompanying Scripture?

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

CHAPTER XVIII
*Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation*
I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation[1] (which hope of theirs shall perish):[2] yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace,[3] and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.[4] 

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;[5] but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,[6] the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,[7] the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,[8] which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.[9] 

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:[10] yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.[11] And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure,[12] that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,[13] the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.[14] 

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God´s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:[15] yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived;[16] and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.[17] 



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[1] Job 8:13-14. So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite´s hope shall perish: Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider´s web. Micah 3:11. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us. Deuteronomy 29:19. And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst. John 8:41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 

[2] Matthew 7:22-23. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 

[3] 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.... My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.... Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 

[4] Romans 5:2, 5. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.... And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 

[5] Hebrews 6:11, 19. And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end.... Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil. 

[6] Hebrews 6:17-18. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us. 

[7] 2 Peter 1:4-5, 10-11. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge.... Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 3:14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 2 Corinthians 1:12. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 

[8] Romans 8:15-16. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. 

[9] Ephesians 1:13-14. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 4:30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 

[10] 1 John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Isaiah 50:10. Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Mark 9:24. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Psalm 88. Psalm 77:1-12. 

[11] 1 Corinthians 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 John 4:13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. Hebrews 6:11-12. And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Ephesians 3:17-19. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 

[12] 2 Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. 

[13] Romans 5:1-2, 5. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.... And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Romans 14:17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Ephesians 1:3-4. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Psalm 4:6-7. There be many that say, Who will show us any good? LORD, lift thou up the light of thy countenance upon us. Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased. Psalm 119:32. I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 

[14] 1 John 2:1-2. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 6:1-2. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Titus 2:11-12, 14. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world.... Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2 Corinthians 7:1. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Romans 8:1, 12. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 1 John 3:2-3. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Psalm 130:4. But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. 1 John 1:6-7. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 

[15] Song of Solomon 5:2-3, 6. I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them?... I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. Psalm 51:8, 12, 14. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.... Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.... Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. Ephesians 4:30-31. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice. Psalm 77:1-10. I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak. I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore? Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah. And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High. Matthew 26:69-72. Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. Psalm 31:22. For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee. Psalm 88. Isaiah 50:10. Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. 

[16] 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Luke 22:32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Job 13:15. Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Psalm 73:15. If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. Psalm 51:8, 12. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.... Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Isaiah 50:10. Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. 

[17] Micah 7:7-9. Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Jeremiah 32:40. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Isaiah 54:7-10. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. Psalm 22:1. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psalm 88.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 3, 2005)

Welcome to the Puritanboard!

I'm glad God is illuminating the doctrines of grace more fully to your mind and heart... may the light of the Gospel shine more fully in all of our mind that we might better understand and fathom the depths of his abundant grace and mercy. 

Man's problem is not the lack of a "will" _per se_ but rather that he is in bondage to his will and that will is to sin. The thesis of Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will is that personal moral responsibility is not inconsistent with God's determining disposal of all events of every kind (p. 258). Edwards rejects the Arminian notion that the will has a self-determining power (p. 39). What determines the will "is that motive which, as it stands in the view of the mind, is the strongest" (p. 9). By "motive" he means "the whole of that which moves, excites or invites the mind to volition, whether that be one thing singly, or many things conjunctly" (p. 9). The "strongest motive" is "that which appears most inviting" (p. 10). Or as he puts it later: "the will always is as the greatest apparent good is" (p. 11f).

Edwards takes great pains to make his definitions clear. He says,

By determining the will. . .must be intended, causing that the act of the will or choice should be thus and not otherwise: and the will is said to be determined, when in consequence of some actions or influence, its choice is directed to, and fixed upon a particular object (p. 8).

Then he defines "will" as "that by which the mind chooses anything. The faculty of the will is the faculty or power or principle of mind by which it is capable of choosing" (p. 4).

Well even a Calvinist could acknowlege a so called _free will_; it's just that we do not ascribe salvific attributes to man's free will like are Arminian friends. Sinful believers no more willed themselves to salvation or cooperated with God in the marvelous work of regeneration than did Lazarus when Jesus raised him from the dead. Being dead in sins and trespasses means blindness to our need for a savior. 

"Take any religion and test it by this standard: Is it characterized by man or by God? If it elevates man, if it exalts man, if it deifies man, if it glorifes man than it's not the true faith. If it exalts God, if it gives God the glory, if it puts the diadam upon the crown of Christ than that must be the true religion." 
-Rev. Ian Paisley, Free Presbyterian Church, Ulster

I hope God gives you wisdom in your search for the truth, but it's the Almighty that is effectually dragging you to the truth! The Cross of Christ is our only room for boasting!
:bigsmile:

A fellow sojourner,
Ryan

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## JKLeoPCA (Sep 4, 2005)

just thought this was cool.


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## JKLeoPCA (Sep 4, 2005)

Yup yup, just found it that way surfing the web with the topic _Total Depravity_, and it was part of the search return.


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## tdowns (Sep 4, 2005)

*Shay*

Welcome to the boards, tons to learn here. Your post describes the "experiential" conclusion I came to based on my own leanings, there is no way it is up to me at any level. 
I am Chosen, or I am lost. 
Praise God it's up to Him.

This site has helped turn my "experiential" conclusion into one backed by scripture.

Keep reading and great question and thoughts.


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## LarryCook (Sep 4, 2005)

> If He will not exercise the power to save, I am lost.



Shay,

I know that this issue is larger than two passages, but in this case I'll choose brevity.

1 Samuel 2: 22-25

Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad. If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, *for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.*

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 for you brother,
Larry


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## andreas (Sep 6, 2005)

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." 

- John Owen, III:433

andreas.


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## CalsFarmer (Sep 6, 2005)

Maybe I am a bit out of line here but In my humble opinion existential thought has no place being compared to biblical reasoning and biblical reasoning should NOT be subjected to existential philosophy.


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## rgrove (Sep 8, 2005)

I think experiential or perhaps experimental are the terms he was looking for a way to express. I don't think existential philosophy is in view, but perhaps a confusing choice of words. At least that's how I'll take it for the time being.

covrin - I pray you find the answers you're looking for.  This board has a lot of good men and women to ask questions of.


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## Herald (Sep 8, 2005)

Shay - been there...done that...have the T-Shirt.

I have traveled the same road. I have concluded two things:

1. Bad theology corrupts assurance. The natural conclusion of being a "free willy" (as I call it) is that if I participate in salvation I can also participate in losing it. I lump many conservative Baptist churches in this camp. Instead of being full fledged Armenians, they have adopted a semi-Armenian position. They believe that man excercises his free will in choosing God, but once saved man cannot lose his salvation. But this does little to expel the psychological doubts that people go through from time to time.

2. Disobedient walk. When I have walked in disobedience to our Lord's commands, the doubts of my salvation turn from whispers to shouts. Lack of prayer, bible study, fellowship, worship...when these are lacking, so is my assurance. 

Shay - I have been there and know that correct theology, coupled with a close walk with our Lord dispells the psychological torture that we often bring upon ourselves.


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