# Augustine on Assurance



## AC. (Mar 3, 2010)

The one important area that Calvin differed from Augustine regarding Grace, is he believed one can have assurance of salvation in this life. However, I think assurance is so fickle in the lives of the Believer becasue of sin and as a result I agree with Augustine over Calvin.

Sure perseverance is a certainity for the elect on God's side but I don't think assurance on the part of the believer is ever truely obtained...so in essence assurance can never fully be realized!




> Chapter 40.— No One is Certain and Secure of His Own Predestination and Salvation.
> 
> But, moreover, that such things as these are so spoken to saints who will persevere, as if it were reckoned uncertain whether they will persevere, is a reason that they ought not otherwise to hear these things, since it is well for them “not to be high-minded, but to fear.” Romans 11:20 For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden; since here we have to beware so much of pride, that even so great an apostle was buffetted by a messenger of Satan, lest he should be lifted up. 2 Corinthians 12:7 Hence it was said to the apostles, “If you abide in me;” John 15:7 and this He said who knew for a certainty that they would abide; and through the prophet, “If you shall be willing, and will hear me,” Isaiah 1:19 although He knew in whom He would work to will also. And many similar things are said. For on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, lest, perchance, any one should be lifted up, but that all, even although they are running well, should fear, in that it is not known who may attain—on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which works by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him. And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride. Finally, this also shall be the case; but it shall be at that time, in men also as it already is in the angels, when there cannot be any pride. Therefore the number of the saints, by God's grace predestinated to God's kingdom, with the gift of perseverance to the end bestowed on them, shall be guided there in its completeness, and there shall be at length without end preserved in its fullest completeness, most blessed, the mercy of their Saviour still cleaving to them, whether in their conversion, in their conflict, or in their crown!


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## jayce475 (Mar 3, 2010)

I think the WCF is the middle ground between the two.

CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.

I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.


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## py3ak (Mar 3, 2010)

AC. said:


> I don't think assurance on the part of the believer is ever truely obtained...so in essence assurance can never fully be realized!


 
[Moderator]*That would certainly be an unconfessional doctrine, since the chapter Jason quoted contains the sentence: "This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto." The true believer may attain infallible assurance: that is the teaching of the Confession, and nothing contrary to that can be promoted on the Board.*[/Moderator]


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## rbcbob (Mar 3, 2010)

py3ak said:


> AC. said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think assurance on the part of the believer is ever truely obtained...so in essence assurance can never fully be realized!
> ...


 
Ruben
I notice that Anthony holds to the 3 Forms of Unity. Do these clearly express that which the WCF states so clearly? I ask because I have not read those documents.
Thanks,


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## py3ak (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi Bob,

The Westminster Standards are the decisive voice where different confessions disagree, but there is no call to have recourse to that in this case, because the Heidelberg Catechism seems pretty clear. 



> *Q.21:* _What is true faith?_
> *A.* True faith is not only a certain knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in his word, but also an assured confidence, which the Holy Ghost works by the gospel in my heart; that not only to others, but to me also, remission of sin, everlasting righteousness, and salvation, are freely given by God, merely of grace, and for the sake of Christ's merits.



And Ursinus certainly understood it to teach that we may have assurance of salvation: in his _Commentary_ he states that we may know we have faith,
1. From the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and by the true and unfeigned desire that we have to embrace and receive the benefits that Christ offers unto us.
2. By the doubts and conflicts which we experience, if we are of the number of the faithful.
3. From the effect of faith, which is a sincere purpose, and desire to obey all the commands of God.

He also answers objections from those who think we cannot know we are saved. 

Also, while I am no expert on Augustine, the quote presented does not maintain the position expressed.


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## AC. (Mar 4, 2010)

I may be wrong but I don't think assurance can ever be fully realized this side of the grave and that's what Augustine attests to here...

I think Ursinus commentary #2 proves my point. That's why as Paul says we work out our election with fear and trembling...Augstine claims it is this fear that keeps us from getting complacent or puffed up or prideful.....

I partially disagree with #21 of HC that we ALWAYS maintain an 'assured confidence' as for the rest I'm in agreement. I believe I can obtain this belief and hold onto every other aspect of Reformed thought.

It is the ALWAYS I cannot acquiesce to....but if ALWAYS is not implied I can agree.....because we may experience doubts & conflicts from time to time


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## greenbaggins (Mar 4, 2010)

That wasn't the problem with your post. All agree that not every Christian has full assurance. The problem with your position as originally posted was that you seemed to be denying that an infallible assurance was even possible in this life. If it is impossible, then 1 John 5:13 is a lie.


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## AC. (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't see how any Christian can ever have full assurance in this life....I have heard of faithful ministers who lose their assurance on their deathbed....I still think they are saved.....but it's the reality of living in this skin....I think?

Should true assurance always be full, how can assurance be fickle isn't that an oxymoron?


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## Philip (Mar 4, 2010)

What exactly do you mean by assurance? A psychological state? A peace of mind about one's standing before God?


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## earl40 (Mar 4, 2010)

greenbaggins said:


> That wasn't the problem with your post. All agree that not every Christian has full assurance. The problem with your position as originally posted was that you seemed to be denying that an infallible assurance was even possible in this life. If it is impossible, then 1 John 5:13 is a lie.



 Exellent!

1 John 5:13 
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, *so that you may know* that you have eternal life.


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## AC. (Mar 4, 2010)

earl40 said:


> 1 John 5:13
> 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, *so that you may know* that you have eternal life.



fair enough, I can't argue with scriptures....I just think that assurance in this life is fickle not becasue anything lacking in the promises of God but becasue we are so in love with sin....which also remains to varying degrees after our conversion and robs us of our peace.....


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

AC. said:


> fair enough, I can't argue with scriptures....



Good. _I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day._ 

Richard Sibbes:


> Again, if we would be thankful, as Paul here, and begin heaven upon earth, labour to be assured of salvation, and perseverance in the Christian course. The papists, that speak against assurance and perseverance, kill prayer and praising of God. Shall a man praise God for that which he doubts of? I cannot tell whether God will damn me or not; perhaps I am but fitted as a sheep to the slaughter, &c. How shall a man praise God for any blessing he enjoys, when these thoughts are still with him? How shall a man praise God for salvation, when perhaps he shall not come to it? How shall a man praise God for that which perhaps he may fall from before he die? when perhaps he is God's to-day, and may be the devil's to-morrow? How can there be a hearty thanks, but when a man can say, 'The Lord will deliver me from every evil work,' that by mine own weakness and Satan's malice, I may occasionally fall into, betwixt this and heaven? Therefore, if we would praise God as we should, let us work our hearts to labour after assurance of God's favour; let us redeem our precious time, and every day set some time apart to strengthen our evidences for heaven, which will set us in a continual frame to every good work.


- "The Saint's Safety in Evil Times"


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## P.F. (Mar 4, 2010)

AC. said:


> I don't think assurance on the part of the believer is ever truely obtained...so in essence assurance can never fully be realized!


Others have pointed out that this is not confessional. It's also (and more importantly, from where I'm standing) not Scriptural

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


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## MW (Mar 4, 2010)

If I may be permitted to come to Anthony's defence, he is not disagreeing with Scripture or the Confession. The Scriptures quoted only refer to the objective truth not the subjective realisation of the truth. Anthony is saying that there must be an element of fear mixed with hope in order to keep the believer from presumption and to help him work out his salvation. He is, of course, correct. No believer passes through this life without a doubt. The believer not only has the unknowing of sin, How can these things be? and the unknowing of sense, Hath the Lord forgotten to be gracious? but even the unknowing of faith, How long, O Lord? The assurance of a believer is deep-seated, described as a seed remaining in him, a faith and love in which he is rooted and established. The believer verily sways with the wind but is never uprooted from his persuasion. It is this persuasion which gives rise to the "oidamen" (we know) statements of Scripture, but there is not always a subjective realisation of what is known.


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## JOwen (Mar 4, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> If I may be permitted to come to Anthony's defence, he is not disagreeing with Scripture or the Confession. The Scriptures quoted only refer to the objective truth not the subjective realisation of the truth. Anthony is saying that there must be an element of fear mixed with hope in order to keep the believer from presumption and to help him work out his salvation. He is, of course, correct. No believer passes through this life without a doubt. The believer not only has the unknowing of sin, How can these things be? and the unknowing of sense, Hath the Lord forgotten to be gracious? but even the unknowing of faith, How long, O Lord? The assurance of a believer is deep-seated, described as a seed remaining in him, a faith and love in which he is rooted and established. The believer verily sways with the wind but is never uprooted from his persuasion. It is this persuasion which gives rise to the "oidamen" (we know) statements of Scripture, but there is not always a subjective realisation of what is known.


 
I agree with Matthew.


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

_Knowing_ has no reference to the subjective realisation of the truth?


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## MW (Mar 4, 2010)

py3ak said:


> _Knowing_ has no reference to the subjective realisation of the truth?


 
When Scripture employs it, especially the Johannine references, it speaks of what is ministered by the unction of the Holy One. It is intuitive rather than discursive. It is something that is implied in the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Word of life and requires experience (proofing) to lead to an explicit confidence.


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

So what does _attaining_ an infallible assurance mean? Obviously that assurance may be intermitted, but surely the attaining has a subjective aspect?


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## MW (Mar 4, 2010)

py3ak said:


> So what does _attaining_ an infallible assurance mean? Obviously that assurance may be intermitted, but surely the attaining has a subjective aspect?


 
This takes place on the basis of the practical syllogism. E.g., those who love the brethren have passed from death to life; I love the brethren; I have passed from death to life. It is discursive. The infallibility of the assurance rests on the infallible promise of the covenant, which forms the major premise. All the doubt which could be entertained is found in the appropriation of the promise, which forms the minor premise. The conclusion will therefore be as certain and as full as the ability to see the working of God's Spirit in making one a proper object of the promise. Does any Christian always and fully walk after the Spirit? Of course not. It is therefore to be expected that the infallible assurance attained by examining oneself will not always and fully be present. Hence the case divinity of WCF 18:3, wherein it is urged as a duty upon all believers to make their calling and election sure. The process of making our calling sure is itself a mark whereby we can become more assured.


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## Philip (Mar 4, 2010)

py3ak said:


> _Knowing_ has no reference to the subjective realisation of the truth?


 
Not always--knowing does not necessarily entail knowing that you know. All Christians go through periods of doubt when we are driven back to the cross.


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > So what does _attaining_ an infallible assurance mean? Obviously that assurance may be intermitted, but surely the attaining has a subjective aspect?
> ...



But that doesn't mean that the assurance isn't attained. Surely denying that it may be attained would be clean contrary to the Confession's plain statement: and surely the attainment is subjective, so that, for instance, Toplady can say "Yes, I to the end shall endure".


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## MW (Mar 4, 2010)

py3ak said:


> But that doesn't mean that the assurance isn't attained. Surely denying that it may be attained would be clean contrary to the Confession's plain statement: and surely the attainment is subjective, so that, for instance, Toplady can say "Yes, I to the end shall endure".


 
Attaining assurance and fully attaining assurance are two different things.


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

To be sure; but that assurance is not full does not mean that it is not true, as the first post in the thread intimated.


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## MW (Mar 4, 2010)

py3ak said:


> To be sure; but that assurance is not full does not mean that it is not true, as the first post in the thread intimated.


 
The first post in the thread has to be read through the eyes of one struggling to define what he cannot yet see. He of all people needs to be helped to see that when he speaks of "assurance not fully realised" he leaves room for an assurance that nevertheless seeks to be fully realised.


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## AC. (Mar 4, 2010)

maybe I don't understand what assurance is then? If I am assured of something I am certain, right? It doesn't waiver. The words 'full' or 'true' should not even enter the equation. But in reality is there a person that exists whose assurance never waivers, they would have to be sinless, I'd think. Even Jesus asked the Father 'why have you foresaken me?' which may be an indicator of the life we live in the flesh. (I mean Jesus had to carry the burden of all our sins and experience seperation on account of our transgrssions although he was 100% righteous) 


Do you have a link for Ursinus' commentaries on the matter?


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2010)

Anthony, as far as I know Ursinus is not online. However, Richard Sibbes is, and many people have found a blessing of God in reading his writings, in the form of comfort and encouragement. This little excerpt might give you some taste:



> What do I say? The righteous shall be saved? He is saved already. "This day is salvation come to thine house," saith Christ to Zaccheus, Luke 19:9. "We are saved by faith, and are now set in heavenly places together with him," Eph.2:6. We have a title and interest to happiness already. There remains only a passage to the crown by good works. We do not, as the papists do, work to merit that we have not, but we do that we do in thankfulness for what we have. Because we know we are in the state of salvation; therefore we will shew our thankfulness to God in the course of our lives.
> 
> How can we miss of salvation when we are saved already? Christ our head being in heaven, will draw his body after him. What should hinder us? The world? Alas! we have that faith in us, "which overcometh the world," I John 5:4. As for the flesh, you know what the apostle saith, "We are not under the law, but under grace," Rom. 6:14. The spirit in us always lusteth against the flesh, and subdues it by little and little; neither can Satan or the gates of hell prevail against us; for the grace we have is stronger than all enemies against us.
> 
> ...



Mr Winzer, while that is no doubt true, the first post contained a purported contrast between Calvin and Augustine, not a statement of personal doubt.


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## Philip (Mar 4, 2010)

I think that we need to distinguish between objective assurance and subjective assurance. Objectively, we have the promises of God and His covenant love toward us. Subjectively, though, there are times when we feel distant and it's not necessarily because of sin--it's just that our emotional state, for whatever reason, is low and God feels distant. These times should drive us to those promises, but I can testify that it's hard to praise God in times of testing when He removes all subjective assurances and all I'm left to go on is His promise. Looking back, I see the Holy Spirit working, but at the time it was hidden.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> I think that we need to distinguish between objective assurance and subjective assurance. Objectively, we have the promises of God and His covenant love toward us. Subjectively, though, there are times when we feel distant and it's not necessarily because of sin--it's just that our emotional state, for whatever reason, is low and God feels distant. These times should drive us to those promises, but I can testify that it's hard to praise God in times of testing when He removes all subjective assurances and all I'm left to go on is His promise. Looking back, I see the Holy Spirit working, but at the time it was hidden.


 
yes! Bingo!


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## earl40 (Mar 5, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> If I may be permitted to come to Anthony's defence, he is not disagreeing with Scripture or the Confession. The Scriptures quoted only refer to the objective truth not the subjective realisation of the truth. Anthony is saying that there must be an element of fear mixed with hope in order to keep the believer from presumption and to help him work out his salvation. He is, of course, correct. No believer passes through this life without a doubt. The believer not only has the unknowing of sin, How can these things be? and the unknowing of sense, Hath the Lord forgotten to be gracious? but even the unknowing of faith, How long, O Lord? The assurance of a believer is deep-seated, described as a seed remaining in him, a faith and love in which he is rooted and established. The believer verily sways with the wind but is never uprooted from his persuasion. It is this persuasion which gives rise to the "oidamen" (we know) statements of Scripture, but there is not always a subjective realisation of what is known.


 

Good stuff. 

The subjective reality is that we are still sinners, while the objective reality is Who we believe in, Jesus the object of our faith.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

thanks everyone for the feedback


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## P.F. (Mar 5, 2010)

armourbearer said:


> If I may be permitted to come to Anthony's defence, he is not disagreeing with Scripture or the Confession. The Scriptures quoted only refer to the objective truth not the subjective realisation of the truth. ... It is this persuasion which gives rise to the "oidamen" (we know) statements of Scripture, but there is not always a subjective realisation of what is known.


There's a world of difference between "not always a subjective realization" and "I don't think assurance on the part of the believer is *ever truely obtained*" - the former is reasonable, the latter is not.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

Mr. Flanagan....

do you have assurance? have you ever doubted your salvation? Has anyone here ever have?

At this point in my life, from my subjective perspective, I don't know if assurance is ever truely obtained??? Maybe we should use another word than assurance (I don't believe confessions are infalliable or maybe I'm not reading it right).

But if assurance can waiver than how is it assurance???

I'm not questioning perseverance of the saints...I'm questioning the experience of the believer to live this life with assurance. Again, I don't see why we have to use words TRUE or FULL. Either we have ASSURANCE or NOT. IF IT WAIVERS IT'S NOT ASSURANCE...IS IT???

Are confessions 100% infalliable??? Are they 100% divinely inspired as scriptures???


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## P.F. (Mar 5, 2010)

AC: 

a) This is not about me.

b) I quoted from the Scriptures, not the Confessions. The Scriptures are 100% inspired.

c) I'm simply correcting your erroneous assertion that believers cannot truly obtain assurance in this life.

d) I realize that this is an emotional topic for you, but I exhort you to more carefully consider what my criticism is not. My criticism is not a suggestion that those who waiver are unsaved - or anything like that. My criticism is a criticism of the idea that believers cannot have assurance. Scripture says they can, and we ought to believe the Scriptures.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

yeah, but also wasn't Paul worried about being a cast away and mentioned fighting the good fight....touching on the subjective experience of the believer even though from God's side he was secure. I know Paul testifies of being secure in Christ in Romans 7. But does assurance account for doubts, fears and despondencies....if it does I don't see how one can ever have assurance on the subjective level...from an objective perspective yes. The scriptures often speaks of how things ought to go....not how they do go...no? If not a lot of Calvinist doctrine would be faulty.

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

So what useage of assurance are we looking at here pretaining to Assurance of salvation (it obviously can't be freedom from doubt)



> as·sur·ance (-shrns)
> n.
> 1. The act of assuring.
> 2. A statement or indication that inspires confidence; a guarantee or pledge: gave her assurance that the plan would succeed.
> ...


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## jayce475 (Mar 5, 2010)

AC. said:


> yeah, but also wasn't Paul worried about being a cast away and mentioned fighting the good fight....touching on the subjective experience of the believer even though from God's side he was secure. I know Paul testifies of being secure in Christ in Romans 7. But does assurance account for doubts, fears and despondencies....if it does I don't see how one can ever have assurance of the subjective level...from an objective perspective yes. The scriptures often speaks of how things ought to go....not how they do go...no? If not a lot of Calvinist doctrine would be faulty.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------
> 
> ...


 
If I'm not mistaken, Calvin ignored the subjective aspects of assurance by stating that assurance is of the essence of faith, but pretty much all of us here are in agreement that there is a subjective aspect to assurance. Assurance simply means knowing for sure at this moment in time, regardless of whether we call it self-confidence or freedom from doubt. Infallible assurance means that it can't waver or change. It would be useful for us to stick to the language of the WCF and disregard the terms "true" or "full" for now. The WCF is clear on whether there are some who do manage to attain infallible assurance. Not all of us are able to attain it because of our own darkened minds which need continual renewing, but according to the WCF, there are some who do. Practically speaking, this infallible assurance (a state of neverchanging confidence in one's salvation where doubt never enters) does appear very difficult to attain, though I do know of ministers who may fit into this category. Many of us fail to attain this, not because it is impossible for us to do so, but because of the sinfulness in us causing such doubts in us and our failure to fully work out our salvation with fear and trembling.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

> Q.21: What is true faith?
> A. True faith is not only a certain knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in his word, but also an assured confidence, which the Holy Ghost works by the gospel in my heart; that not only to others, but to me also, remission of sin, everlasting righteousness, and salvation, are freely given by God, merely of grace, and for the sake of Christ's merits.



looking at this statement over, it seems to be saying that w/out an *assured confidence* we do not have TRUE faith.....if taken on it's own I'd say many of us lack true faith and are hence outside the kingdom of God, no? How many can at all times say they have an ASSURED CONFIDENCE, I think if we took a poll the % would be low....no? Maybe not amongst the easy-believism circles???


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## jayce475 (Mar 5, 2010)

AC. said:


> > Q.21: What is true faith?
> > A. True faith is not only a certain knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in his word, but also an assured confidence, which the Holy Ghost works by the gospel in my heart; that not only to others, but to me also, remission of sin, everlasting righteousness, and salvation, are freely given by God, merely of grace, and for the sake of Christ's merits.
> 
> 
> ...


 
What the Heidelberg Catechism may be trying to convey may be that which the WCF is saying, but not quite as clearly, or it may indeed mean what you are saying. It is not clear in the HC whether this assured confidences must be ever abiding and ever present. Where the confessions differ, the WCF is the standard.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

if 'assurance' (and possibly true faith if it includes an assured confidence) CAN waiver as part of the Christian experience despite how Q. 21 seems to read.....I will retract my original post!!!


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## jayce475 (Mar 5, 2010)

AC. said:


> if 'assurance' (and possibly true faith if it includes an assured confidence) CAN waiver as part of the Christian experience despite how Q. 21 seems to read.....I will retract my original post!!!


 
True faith in itself would not waver because it is fully objective, but our knowledge of whether we do possess true faith does. But yes, assurance can waver (stated rather clearly in the WCF I might add) and I think HC Q21 can possibly be read in a way which is consistent with the WCF. Well, your original post has given the opportunity for many to gain a better understanding of assurance, so it's not a bad thing. Just matter of being mindful of when we're "advocating" for something that contradicts the confessions and when we are seeking clarification.


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## AC. (Mar 5, 2010)

Jason, 

I appreciate your particpations/feedback. Good stuff.

AC


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## mmeeuwse (Mar 7, 2010)

I have read this thread with interest and would like to share some thoughts from my perspective. I mentioned to our session that I did not have assurance of salvation. Referring to the WCF chap. 18 I told them my faith was founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation and that I did have inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, but that the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are children of God, was lacking in my soul. I was told that I was waiting for an extraordinary revelation, to which I replied that I did not know what I was waiting for but that I would know when it happened. I was told to read all of 1 John and especially 1 John 5:13. I noticed that this verse was referred to very early in this thread also and all the emphasis was put on “that you may know that you have eternal life.” The first few words, “these things I have written” were not even mentioned. What are these things? John writes precious promises followed by terrible warnings. 5:6b- And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 2:15- if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Who of us does not love our wife and children? Who does not love our possessions, entertainment, money etc.? Yes we really do need the Spirit’s witness. If our Heavenly Father chooses not to provide that witness what is the believer supposed to do? I am afraid that many decide to take a gift that was not given, rather we should go forward in faith and hope and prayerfully wait on Him for His perfect timing.


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## AC. (Mar 7, 2010)

I've read Kersten's commentaries on Q. 21. He says that true faith is confidently assured and does not waiver, but the issue becomes the exercise of faith....for the believer faith is not always in exercise.....doubts & assaults may plague us



Beeke on Calvin on the matter: MAKING SENSE OF CALVIN’S PARADOXES ON ASSURANCE OF FAITH: Part One


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## py3ak (Mar 8, 2010)

William Guthrie, in the opening of _The Christian's Great Interest_, says this:



> * I. – A man's interest in Christ may be known*
> 
> First, That a man’s interest in Christ, or his gracious state, may be known, and that with more certainty than people conjecture; yea, and the knowledge of it may be more easily attained unto than many imagine; for not only has the Lord commanded men to know their interest in Him, as a thing attainable – ‘Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith’ (2 Cor. 13:5); ‘Give diligence to make your calling and election sure’ (2 Peter 1:10) – but many of the saints have attained unto the clear persuasion of their interest in Christ, and in God as their own God. How often do they call Him their God and their portion? and how persuaded is Paul ‘that nothing can separate him from the love of God?’ (Rom. 8:38, 39.) Therefore the knowledge of a man’s gracious state is attainable. And this knowledge of it, which may be attained, is no fancy and mere conceit, but it is most sure: ‘Doubtless Thou art our Father,’ saith the prophet (Isa. 43:16), in the name of the Church. It is clear from this:--1. That can be no fancy, but a very sure knowledge, which does yield to a rational man comfort in most real straits; but so does this--'When the people spoke of stoning David, he encouraged himself in the Lord his God.' (1 Sam. 30: 6.) He saith, 'He will not be afraid though ten thousands rise up against him.' (Psa. 3: 6.) Compare these words with the following: 'But Thou, O Lord, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.' (Psa. 3: 3.) 'The Lord is my light, and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear; though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.' (Psa. 27: 3.) 2. That is a sure knowledge of a thing which maketh a wise merchant sell all he has, that he may keep it sure; that maketh a man forego children, lands, life, and suffer the spoiling of all joyfully; but so does this--Matt. 13: 44; Mark 10: 28, 29; Heb. 10: 34; Rom. 5: 3; Acts 5: 41. 3. That must be a sure and certain knowledge, and no fancy, upon which a man voluntarily and freely does adventure his soul when he is stepping into eternity, with this word in his mouth, 'This is all my desire' (2 Sam. 23: 5); but such a knowledge is this. And again, not only may a godly man come to the sure knowledge of his gracious state, but it is more easily attainable than many apprehend: for supposing, what shall be afterwards proved, that a man may know the gracious work of God's Spirit in himself; if he will but argue rationally from thence, he shall be forced to conclude his interest in Christ, unless he deny clear Scripture truths. I shall only make use of one here, because we are to speak more directly to this afterwards. A godly man may argue thus, Whosoever receive Christ are justly reputed the children of God--'But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God' (John 1 12); but I have received Christ in all the ways which the word there can import: for I am pleased with the device of salvation by Christ, I agree to the terms, I welcome the offer of Christ in all His offices, as a King to rule over me, a Priest to offer sacrifice and intercede for me, a Prophet to teach me; I lay out my heart for Him and towards Him, resting on Him as I am able. What else can be meant by the word "receiving"? Therefore may I say, and conclude plainly and warrantably, I am justly to reckon myself God's child, according to the aforesaid scripture, which cannot fail.



Full text available here.


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## White Knight (Mar 23, 2010)

Any book recomendations for WCF Chapter 18 Of Assurance of Grace and of Salvation that deal with assurance specifically?


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## Steve Curtis (Mar 23, 2010)

It is decidedly Arminian to think that our assurance is fickle, here today and gone tomorrow: Arminius wrote "With regard to the certainty [or assurance] of salvation, my opinion is, that it is possible for him who believes in Jesus Christ to be certain and persuaded, and, if his heart condemn him not, he is now in reality assured, that he is a Son of God, and stands in the grace of Jesus Christ." (Works 1:5:VI) In other words, as Arminian Carl Bangs writes, the believer can have a "present assurance of a present situation." (_Arminius: A Study in the Dutch Reformation_)

Contrast this with Beza:

"You will know this through the Spirit of Adoption crying within you, ―Abba! Father!‖ and also because through the power of the Spirit you both feel and show it. Even though sin may still dwell in you, it will not reign in you. If you do sin, you will hate your sin and return to the merciful Father and call on him. These are the effects of faith and indicate that you are efficaciously called and drawn by God." [I can't find the reference but I know that this quote appears in Jill Raitt, _The Colloquy of Montbeliard: Religion and Politics in the Sixteenth Century_]

The point is that the issue of assurance is not a Calvin/Augustine dichotomy (or at least not wholly); rather, it was of the very essence of the Synod of Dordt. The Remonstrants denied the assurance that the Confessionalists affirmed.


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