# Arminianism lead to exhaustion but Calvinism leads to apathy?



## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

I accept the doctrines of grace fully, but it has lead me to be much more apathetic at times than I ever used to be. Arminianism lead me to work like a fool to "get people saved" and thus lead to exhaustion and slight depression when no fruit came from all the confessions I helped lead people in (sinners prayer).

Now I look at the people I used to go crazy trying to "get saved" and think what's the use, they obviously have no call on their heart.

Ugh!

I know it's error on my part but it's still frustrating.


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## Poimen (May 14, 2005)

But Adam you will never know! Only God knows. 

2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Indeed may we all be like you: who struggles with a desire for the lost and a love for God's sovereignty over all things! 

No apathy, just living the life that God has ordained for us...


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

> No apathy, just living the life that God has ordained for us...



I know that's true, I just feel at times like I am not working as hard as I used to, even though I know for a fact all that worked resulted in nothing but depression for me.


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

What should I do to replace all that chasing after people I used to do? I will not go back to persuing others to say a prayer with me so I can rest assured that I have lead them to the Lord, but I so miss something in my life. 

I often wish that I could encounter a large group of people HUNGRY for the gospel. COuld such a situation even exist? If so where? I tire of people rolling their eyes and having little to no intrest.

My mother told me that I just want Heaven.

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by houseparent]


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## Poimen (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> What should I do to replace all that chasing after people I used to do? I will not go back to persuing others to say a prayer with me so I can rest assured that I have lead them to the Lord, but I so miss something in my life.
> 
> I often wish that I could encounter a large group of people HUNGRY for the gospel. COuld such a situation even exist? If so where? I tire of people rolling their eyes and having little to no intrest.
> ...



Miss something? Remember this:

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."


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## Puritanhead (May 14, 2005)

The Practical Implications of Calvinism is a succinct and novel tract illustrating how we should live and think in light of our embrace of Reformed theology.


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## Robin (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Now I look at the people I used to go crazy trying to "get saved" and think what's the use, they obviously have no call on their heart.
> I know it's error on my part but it's still frustrating.



Adam - my brother,

You are at the "typical" spot in the transition....how mistaken this thinking is....but to be expected (as many of us experience this stage...)

I great book to read (again, and again) is "Calvin's Doctrine of the Christian Life" by Ronald S. Wallace. (It's $30 for a paperback!) What a treasure! Worth the investment times over.

This treatise covers Calvin's ideas on all aspects of our life here on earth. Gosh...we have SO much to DO!! But, to do it right, means to understand rightly...and that is work.

During the Reformation, there was an enthusiastic Christian movement embracing work (Christian work ethic); art; humanities; civil ministry; evangelism (where do you suppose the modern-missions-movement came from?)....to the Calvinist, it is because God has ordained good works that we go out and fulfill our calls. Modern missions owe their existence to the true "evangelicals" - the Reformers.

But don't take my word for it....get cracking there and read up about this, OK? Our focus is to be upon Christ - not how "Saddleback Sam" is doing - the "eyes of Faith" look to Christ while receiving the slight of those who hate Him. Get busy, and learn what it means to catechise your children (if you're not at that already.)

I'd be happy to send you a bibliography and a 3 Forms. U2U me.

There is wild-work to be done while the Lord tarries....!!!

Since, I was "relieved" of the responsibility to save folks, I faced the fact that I had to start truly learning theology -- in an effort to answer those questions. What a trip it has been and is! We laymen are on the frontlines --- we are the "infantry!"

The Reformed "do" evangelism differently, that's all. And it is far and away better -- more glorifying to God --- and especially, more interesting and challenging. Remember, we are seed-sowers....not necessarily harvesters. Many times, we won't see results of our "incredible personal testimonies (self-centered); seeing pagans as only Gospel-fodder" (sarcasm)! (Thank God, that's over.) Maybe God has ordained that you give somebody a glass of cold water (literally?) But through THAT, the Lord may grant mercy and call them to faith, through a simple act of kindness. 

Here's a link to a study on how the Reformed "do" evangelism. See what you think and get back to the thread with thoughts. You have no idea what you're "in for" (heeheehee :bigsmile It's a W O N D R O U S adventure (this life) the Lord has gifted to us!! We are to suffer and die for Him as we live out our callings -- these days, this mostly amounts to our ego and self-righteousness dying; the comforts of friendship lost; the sacrifice of popularity in community; resisting the seduction of indulging in culture. (We're not suffering death at sword's point, like the Reformers did.)

(Keep your hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times!) 

http://www.christreformed.org/resources/sermons_lectures/00000069.shtml?main

Robin


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

Thanks for the links! They are bookmarked. After my daughter's day is over (College graduation) I will check them out.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 14, 2005)

Adam, I would encourage you to read biographies of great missionaries like John Paton, William Carey, Adinoram Judson, David Brainerd, Henry Martin, Samuel Zwemer, John Eliot etc. all of whom were both zealous missionaries and faithful calvinists at tha same time. They knew God's elect were out there and wasted no time to help gather them in. 

Something else that I've learned here at RTS from our evangelism professor Dr. Medeiros, has truly helped me in understanding this. We are not necessarily called to personally produce converts. We are called to make Christ known to others. It is God who converts and saves. We spread the message but God uses it as He pleases and gives the increase.


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

> We are not necessarily called to personally produce converts. We are called to make Christ known to others. It is God who converts and saves. We spread the message but God uses it as He pleases and gives the increase.


 

So I suppose I just need more faith when I am frustrated and down about not seeing much of anything "results" wise? 

I am sorry to go on and on about this but it's just where I am right now. I suppose it doesn't help that our daughter is graduating College today and doesn't really "need" her parents anymore. For the forst time in 12 years my wife and I will have no one in our life that we are helping and guiding along the way.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > We are not necessarily called to personally produce converts. We are called to make Christ known to others. It is God who converts and saves. We spread the message but God uses it as He pleases and gives the increase.
> ...



Well, Adam, we are all one link in the chain of anothers salvation. Perhaps you may not see the fruit of your labors in her life, or in anyone elses. But perhaps at her next job she will meet another Christian who will build on where you left off. Or perhaps a neighbor, or new freind, or perhaps even one of her freinds will surprisingly convert. There are so many possibilities. Just think about your own salvation. Who first made Christ known to you? Do all those people who planted seeds know what happened to you? God usually attacks from multiple fronts. It's our privilege to be one of those fronts with hopefully everyone we meet. There may be times when we actually witness the persons conversion, but even then we are only reaping what others have sown before. Hopefully, you will find some encouragement in that. Keep praying for your daughter, keep witnessing. Let God do the rest.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> What should I do to replace all that chasing after people I used to do? I will not go back to persuing others to say a prayer with me so I can rest assured that I have lead them to the Lord, but I so miss something in my life.
> 
> I often wish that I could encounter a large group of people HUNGRY for the gospel. COuld such a situation even exist? If so where? I tire of people rolling their eyes and having little to no intrest.
> ...



Read the Al Martin booklet (Practical Implications of Calvinism) listed above. It is EXCELLENT.

Who says you have to stop chasing after people ? We know THE TRUTH - that should be motivation beyond motivation to go out and actively want to share the truth. 

Look at Acts 17. Some believed, some said 'we'll hear you on this again' and some said 'whatever!'. As one person rightly said, we are a chain the link of another believers' salvation. I have an old blog entry from last month - a person who once spent their time on the net cussin' me out because I told her she wasn't a Christian (she came from an Eastern Orthodox background)...... is now a believer. No, I didn't 'lead her to Christ' - in fact, she said that my talks with her 'turned her off'. 

Of course, I know differently. The Word, preached and proclaimed, plants seeds. And one day those seeds took root and when someone else watered, God caused growth to occur. She and I talk regularly now - for a while, her boyfriend and I were the only people who supported her. I recently pointed her to Stanmore Baptist Church in New South Wales Australia (did I mention she's from Australia ?). Thank God, they embraced her and they're teaching her now and supporting her.

God changes men and women. His Word does not come back void..... and He is equally glorified in the salvation of men as well as their further condemnation for the rejection of the gospel. How can I *not* praise and serve such a God ? How can I _dare_ to focus on only seeing 'visible results', as if it all depended on me ? (and I have been here too....)

Go. Preach. Proclaim. And whether you see one or a thousand, thank God for the opportunity to share His truth with others.


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## Ivan (May 14, 2005)

For me, Arminianism lead to frustration. Calvinism lead to peace of mind.


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

Patrick;

I accepted Christ at age twelve. Everyone in my life saw my progression and the results of their labor. Maybe that's why I can't relate?


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## Scott Bushey (May 14, 2005)

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

Ok, knowing this and feeling better are two different things. Why is it that one can *know* something and still feel bummed out about it?


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## Scott Bushey (May 14, 2005)

Adam,
Jeremiah was known as the weeping prophet. He knew his theology well. Apathy is laziness; all of us are subject to this. Ultimately, it is wrong and as far as I am concerned, sinful.


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## Larry Hughes (May 14, 2005)

Adam,

Check out what Robin posted and linked to. Sharing the gospel should not be driven out of guilt but joy, and the true reformed/lutheran do it differently. 

I´ve gone through and still have waves of it that hit me. I attended a church here in KY that was Saddleback´s twin sister. Modeled exactly after it but with a bit more "œcharismatic" element to it, and we had the "œnumbers"œ. We did local outreach and such, nothing wrong with that per se, but I slowly noticed something happening to me over time. Nothing was being preached to me about my sins, Christ was being obscured in the flurry of "œget out there and do evangelism/missions". Christ/Gospel was never preached on a Sunday. One cannot sustain that for ever. And one must realize as hard as it is to our ears to hear, one can turn even evangelism/missions into a work. Pretty soon I fell into the tornado of spiritual exhaustion > but if I was really a Christian I wouldn´t struggle with evangelism > ergo "œam I a Christian" at all > I better DO more to prove I´m a Christian > then do more > then I didn´t do that "œmore" with a right heart and could´ve done more > am I a Christian > need-to-do-more > don´t you have a heart for the lost > are you a Christian > need-to-do-more. Then entered reformed faith, but the study of theology (feeding one´s soul) is a waste of time say they, need to do more. You see the "œworks" never relieved me, eyes were off of Christ.

Then some I knew got on this kick that ALL without exception are called directly as missionaries. Except in providence, I, like many, really didn´t have the means. What was I suppose to think of that? Take a leap of faith as so many of those giddy spirits would advise? Drop my wife and family?

Then I´d hear these ridiculous analogies of "œI wish Christians were as motivated as Mormons when it comes to evangelism." How blind and stupid that is. Of course they are, fear of punishment/hope reward, law, (in the bad sense) always motivates. That´s why some Muslims are capable of flying planes into buildings. Zeal is NOT always a sign of the true faith, the Pharisees were zealous for converts traveling over seas and hills.

All that having been said, of course we Christians desire to serve our Lord more than we really do. That´s the pitch of the justified sinner/saint´s soul (Rom 7). But the Gospel gives the power, never the Law. The perfect irony of those afraid to let the Gospel do its work in its time on each and every one of us - this sick Americanized version of Christianity - the same vainly think they can motivate true good works by law is that they are killing, KILLING, the very thing they say they want to increase.

E.g.: We are here discussing apathy and perhaps sloth. Which are not the same. Now, sloth is sin. We could just leave it at that (declare law) and hope for motivation. Two things will occur when one hears that reply (law) alone. 1. More despair and misery and zero motivation (good works not outwardly done and effectively killed). 2. False motivation out of fear of punishment/hope of reward (mormon/islam/world like) ("œgood" works outwardly done but not spiritually due to the motivation sense apart from faith all is sin).

Another thing to remember is that good works are more than the two or three defined by most evangelical churches today. Good works are more than "œchurchy" works, monkery is Roman. When one begins to define the number, degree or magnitude of "œgood works" one reveals that one understands nothing about good works at all and faith. For it is not the number, degree or magnitude of a work that matters but that from which it issues - faith in Jesus Christ alone, the Gospel.

Blessings in Christ,

ldh


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## LarryCook (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> What should I do to replace all that chasing after people I used to do? I will not go back to persuing others to say a prayer with me so I can rest assured that I have lead them to the Lord, but I so miss something in my life.
> 
> I often wish that I could encounter a large group of people HUNGRY for the gospel. COuld such a situation even exist? If so where? I tire of people rolling their eyes and having little to no intrest.
> ...



1 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7But we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children. 8So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us. 9For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. 


D & B LAUNDROMAT
320 E Arch St
Palmyra, PA 17078 

Adam,

You want to meet someone that is hungry for the gospel? Then your brothers and sisters need to pray for that to happen. I did a yellow page search for laundromats in Palmyra, PA and came up with one listing. It is the listing above, the D&B Laundromat on 320 East Arch Street. 

How does this sound. You pick a day of the week and time of day to regularly stop in at that laundromat with a small load of clothes (clean or dirty) and drop them into a washing machine and then a dryer. Take your bible with you and read it while you wash your clothes.

I will lift up in prayer the following petitions and ask that others do likewise:

That, through and for the sake of our Savior and Lord that is Christ Jesus, our Father would establish your steps, that you might be used as an instrument of our Lord to testify to the gospel of the grace of God at the D&B Laundromat, and that He would bring into your presence there one to whom He has given a thirst for truth, that you would convey to this soul a compassion and love which is beyond their understanding, and that God would give you the words which He would have you utter, and that God would use these words as the seed to bring forth the fruit of new life in this person. And finally, that this prayer and your efforts to answer His call to proclaim His Gospel would bring glory to Him.

Adam, you give me the word and I start praying. 
your brother,
Larry

For those praying for you:

1 Samuel 1:16-18; 26-28

16Do not regard your servant as a worthless woman, for all along I have been speaking out of my great anxiety and vexation." 17Then Eli answered, "Go in peace, and the God of Israel grant your petition that you have made to him." 18And she said, "Let your servant find favor in your eyes." Then the woman went her way and ate, and her face was no longer sad. 

26And she said, "Oh, my lord! As you live, my lord, I am the woman who was standing here in your presence, praying to the LORD. 27For this child I prayed, and the LORD has granted me my petition that I made to him. 28Therefore I have lent him to the LORD. As long as he lives, he is lent to the LORD."


Psalm 20: 4-6
4May he grant you your heart's desire
and fulfill all your plans! 
5May we shout for joy over your salvation,
and in the name of our God set up our banners!
May the LORD fulfill all your petitions! 
6Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed;
he will answer him from his holy heaven
with the saving might of his right hand. 

For Adam:

Acts 20:24
But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.


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## Larry Hughes (May 14, 2005)

> Why is it that one can know something and still feel bummed out about it?



Because our feelings can be fickled, misguided and misleading. That is why the Gospel is communicated as news, has the nature and essence of news, is information, is Good News, Glad Tidings. Faith (trust) in Christ, faith's object, must supercede and pull us through emotions. We are not to rest in emotions, these are not the objects of our faith (though I know what you mean I go through that myself). 

This is why, ultimately for example, charismatic "theology" fails...what happens when the "spiritual drug high" is not there, does one's faith in Christ remain in the Valleys. The Psalms are full of lament from God's people with feelings of abandonement. Christ Himself cried out "my God, my God why hast Thou forsaken Me" at the derelection of the cross. Thus, His people will too in various ways and degrees.

When God seems the most furtherest away, then He is the closest. This is foolishness to the world and their "proof" that the cross of Christ is not from God. The cross is foolishness to those perishing, it is the odor of death and not life to the perishing. But to those being saved it is life and the odor of life.

Ldh


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## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LarryCook_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...


 
I will strongly consider this! I will keep you informed.

Thanks for all the others comments as well everyone. THis place is the best.


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## LarryCook (May 14, 2005)

I'm praying for you brother!


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## turmeric (May 15, 2005)

A while back, I was wondering the same thing as you, Adam, for different reasons. It used to seem that I was in some evangelistic conversation all the time with someone, though we never got to the close, then, as I got into trying to understand the implications of the Gospel in my sanctification, that seemed to stop. Now I realize that it hasn't stopped, I've just changed tactics. I'm more relaxed, for one thing, since the results aren't up to me. Also, since I've given up the notion of "victorious living" I grew up with, I've started being more real with people instead of trying to appear to have it together all the time. Guess what? About the time I did that, someone at work decided to start asking me about what I believed. She'd met Christians before, but she thought they were all "Stepford Wives"!

You've done a GREAT job, Adam! You've raised the child you were entrusted with to adulthood and taught her God's Law, as you are commanded to do. Now it's in the hands of God. As Samuel said to Saul "God forbid that I should sin in ceasing to pray for you!" That's what's left for you to do. To paraphrase because I haven't memorized it "Those who go out weeping, bearing precious seed shall come back rejoicing bearing many sheaves" (SIC!)


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## Robin (May 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Ok, knowing this and feeling better are two different things. Why is it that one can *know* something and still feel bummed out about it?



Suffering is a sign we are Christ's.

Here is a song sung in worship/prayer:

Psalm 88
I Cry Out Day and Night Before You
O, LORD, God of my salvation;
I cry out day and night before you. 
Let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry! 


For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol. 
I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength, 
like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand. 
You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep. 
Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah 

You have caused my companions to shun me;
you have made me a horror to them.
I am shut in so that I cannot escape; 
my eye grows dim through sorrow.
Every day I call upon you, O LORD;
I spread out my hands to you. 
Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah 
Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 
Are your wonders known in the darkness,
or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 

But I, O LORD, cry to you;
in the morning my prayer comes before you. 
O LORD, why do you cast my soul away?
Why do you hide your face from me? 
Afflicted and close to death from my youth up,
I suffer your terrors; I am helpless. 
Your wrath has swept over me;
your dreadful assaults destroy me. 
They surround me like a flood all day long;
they close in on me together. 
You have caused my beloved and my friend to shun me;
my companions have become darkness.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 15, 2005)

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


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## Poimen (May 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
> 2 Timothy 2:10



Well said... Paul!


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## Puritanhead (May 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > No apathy, just living the life that God has ordained for us...
> ...



Have you considered that your assumption that your theology is at the root of the cause, might be a _post hoc_ or false causal connection on your part. Perhaps something else is at the root of it. David Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote a good book entitled, _Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Cure_ which might speak to the matter.


[Edited on 5-15-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## Puritanhead (May 15, 2005)

*Evangelism*

A prudent approach to evangelism (whether you want to call it Reformed or not) should rest on 2 Timothy 2:24-25 and emphasise a love for Jesus Christ and his Gospel foremost, an empathy for the lost, patience and persistence and a willingness to the live the Word before others as much as preaching it. We err at times, and we need to pray for God's grace to sustain us. I grew up in that cheese-whiz evangelical culture in the Bible Belt of the South which emphasized preaching and selling the Word like you're some insurance or snake-oil salesmen. It's all too familiar to many here. Hit someone over the head with the Bible, and beguile them with persuassion and baiting to elicit that one-time "decision for Christ." It's easy to be cynical about, but a geniune passion for the Gospel should quell such cynicism.

When I was in college in a profoundly dispie-Arminian environment, and I participated in evangelism outreach activities-- I was disheartened at the misplaced emphasis on eliciting decisions for Christ, too much boasting on the part of the evangelists who seemed to be in pursuit of the accolades of men and King Numbers. Also, the water-downed, sometimes appalling presentations of the Gospel message which many times left out the clarion call to repentance was alarming. There was a fundamental lack of guidance from religious authorities... but what little there was-- only reinforced misguided assumptions. I was enthusiastic about seeing droves confess Christ as Lord and saviour-- it strengthened my resolve even amidst the occasional heckler, but I grew disheartened at the factory operation and circus that the tent preaching had become. Students assisting those evangelizing hounded those who had confessed to sign cards-- Also, there was a prevailing custom to elicit anonymous confessions while eyes were closed and this was quite pravalent. When we're broken and need a Savior, we should be humbled and embrace a public profession. 

After continued involvement over some years in such activity, I developed a cynicism, which I sought to correct by framing a more Biblical understanding of evangelism in light of God's Word. The problem with many who warmly embraced Reformed theology is that they struggle to shed the dead snake-skin of the man-centered Arminian evangelical sub culture... I struggled too. We should look to the example of the Apostle Andrew who never spoke to great multitudes, but was persistent in one-on-one evangelism... There is perhaps more reward in sustained and continual evangelism and mentoring, marked by patience, and your effort to build up a new believer by considerate exhortation, and by practicing a spirit of Christian charity.

As an aside, sin in our life impedes us and we don't feel up to being ambassadors for Christ and we abstain from evangelism. There are little sins like pride as well which stifle our enthusiasm for the Gospel.


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## Scott Bushey (May 15, 2005)

Eze 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. 
Eze 2:4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. 
Eze 2:5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. 
Eze 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. 
Eze 2:7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. 
Eze 2:8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 15, 2005)

Many who oppose Calvinism and its affects on evangelism have the mindset that with election in place, what's the point of evangelizing at all? Why even preach the gospel? God will save whom He wills.

However, in Isaiah, for example, we see God's emphasis on our loving obedience in bringing His message of repentance to the people, despite knowing beforehand that many WILL NOT REPENT OR BELIEVE in the Lord and His salvation.

*Isaiah's Commission from the Lord

8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "œWhom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "œHere am I! Send me." 9 And he said, "œGo, and say to this people:

"œ"˜Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.´
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."*


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## nonconformist (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I accept the doctrines of grace fully, but it has lead me to be much more apathetic at times than I ever used to be. Arminianism lead me to work like a fool to "get people saved" and thus lead to exhaustion and slight depression when no fruit came from all the confessions I helped lead people in (sinners prayer).
> 
> Now I look at the people I used to go crazy trying to "get saved" and think what's the use, they obviously have no call on their heart.
> ...


It could be just a shock phase of your new theology,that happened to me a few months ago but has changed recently.Fortunately for me my postmillenial escatology helps tremendously.I wouldnt worry


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