# What about them vaccines?



## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

I am sceptical myself. At times I voice this skepticism, and of course those who believe in the benevolent state get mad, and throw all sorts of insults. 

However I don't trust government. I trust stories from persons I know more than official government research.

How do we approach this issue so as not to cause unnecessary offense?

regards
Christoffer


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## Leslie (Jan 29, 2015)

What exactly are you asking? It is not at all clear. What vaccines, what government, what is your concern? It sounds like an interesting discussion to get started, but you are being too cryptic to get any replies, or so I think.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

ok I assumed too much it seems. My apologies

The discussion where I live concerns the flu (and the variations of it: swine-, bird- etc.), small pox, measles etc.

These diseases that "everyone" had when I was a kid. Seems nowadays if you don't vaccinate your kids you are a menace to society.

There seems to be something religious about the pro-vaccine movement. A mental block that does not allow for questioning of either the governments wisdom or benevolence.

regards
Chris


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## Tirian (Jan 29, 2015)

To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate, is that the question?


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.

it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."

Personally we have vaccinated against polio and other diseases we find dangerous. We don't take flu shots or shots against chicken pox. Reason is I believe in global conspiracy and I don't think science can "confirm" anything one way or another, it works with hypothesis that can be contradicted by future observation


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## earl40 (Jan 29, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.
> 
> it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."
> 
> Personally we have vaccinated against polio and other diseases we find dangerous. We don't take flu shots or shots against chicken pox. Reason is I believe in global conspiracy and I don't think science can "confirm" anything one way or another, it works with hypothesis that can be contradicted by future observation



Why did you choose to take it for polio but not for the flu? My personal opinion is that if you have the ability to get a vaccine one ought to do such not only for yourself but for the love of ones neighbor and family.

PS. I get them all because I work at a hospital and from what I can see the flu vaccine did not help me at all this year. Of course after getting the flu this year it only reinforces my conviction one ought to get vaccines with the hope they get it right next time.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

Because I don't trust the government. I trust more the stories of people I know, of people who tell of their own experiences. Of reactions and conditions that have followed upon getting vaccinated.

There is some accountability there after all.

Government can do whatever it pleases, with no accountability.


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## earl40 (Jan 29, 2015)

I can understand your mistrust though I would advise asking your Dr. if you ought to trust the goverment on this issue.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

He is employed by the government and has superiors. he cannot know what is in the vaccine but must trust the people higher up. And I believe in corruption in high places


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## Tyrese (Jan 29, 2015)

People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

I understand that, and of course people are free to set their conditions for associating with people. 

Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children? There are many testimonies of things going wrong after vaccinations. Must we assume that vaccinating is THE loving thing to do?

The thing that makes me sceptical towards vaccines is the hysterical reaction of some people when one questions vaccines. It is as if they knew, somehow magically, current vaccines are good. They cannot know that. Science might still one day believe otherwise.


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## Tyrese (Jan 29, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> I understand that, and of course people are free to set their conditions for associating with people.
> 
> Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children? There are many testimonies of things going wrong after vaccinations. Must we assume that vaccinating is THE loving thing to do?
> 
> The thing that makes me sceptical towards vaccines is the hysterical reaction of some people when one questions vaccines. It is as if they knew, somehow magically, current vaccines are good. They cannot know that. Science might still one day believe otherwise.



Most people ignore what we call side affects. In fact, doctors usually warn us when certain vaccines or medications come with them. My point in the previous post still stands brother. It stands because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

> because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.



how come there is a high possibility of that?


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## Tyrese (Jan 29, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> > because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.
> 
> 
> 
> how come there is a high possibility of that?



You should ask your doctor how come, unless you think he's apart of the scheme as well.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

so you don't know the probability. ok


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## DeniseM (Jan 29, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children?


I think you make a good point here. At the very least, I don't think that anyone could make a solid argument that one view or the other is _the_ Christian view. Each family should make those decisions for themselves, based on their particular circumstances. In our family, no one takes the flu shot. One of our children is allergic to eggs and has never been able to take the vaccine because eggs shells are used in the process of producing the vaccine itself. And I personally don't see it as necessary, when our children aren't in school(we homeschool) around large groups of other children everyday. 

Vaccines shouldn't get all of the credit for reducing illness in our day either. Better hygiene practices have done a lot to prevent some of the more avoidable illnesses as well.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 29, 2015)

Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

Well I am preparing a little for what is to come. Already on fb the belittling of "anti-vaxxers" is on, and my country has less of a tradition of freedom than yours. So as with everything you see it coming round the bend. I have aquainances who are very pro-vaccine, with them it tends to come up. Hard to avoid in the long run.

But for the moment, there is no requirement at school/in the workplace etc. 

But there are a lot of things that can cause offense, this being one of them. Views on foreign policy (against Russia) is another that divides people here.

So the original question can be put on a more general level; how do we deal with controversial issues that are not really related to the gospel (ie. do definite "christian" position)? We have to make choices, and since we are not of this world, oftentimes they go against contemporary wisdom. Should we take abuse for things not related to the gospel or should we go along with the world.


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## matt01 (Jan 29, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> However I don't trust government. I trust stories from persons I know more than official government research.



Why don't you trust the government? Is there a conspiracy regarding the vaccines? While the govt might be filled with fellow sinners, this text (Rom. 13:4) also comes to mind: "for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." While doctors ( in your situation more specifically) support the vaccine system, I don't think we should simply discount the science behind it.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

Why I don't trust it? One reason is human history. That is a testimony to the wickedness of man. Reducing unnecessary population was done in the soviet union, no new thing. There is no reason it won't be attempted again, the incentives are all there.

When it comes to political power, there can ultimately only be one. And you will either rule or be ruled, there is no third alternative. Some have realized this and have made arrangements, if my studies are correct.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 29, 2015)

The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations. However this does not mean that you go out looking for a fight either. Being "shrewd as serpents and harmless as doves" is also recommended. 

The gospel itself is offensive enough to the world, and given the opportunity, we must always defend that hill at all costs. But causing offense in other matters (not directly related to the gospel) just so you have a hill to defend does not seem the better part of wisdom to me. My advise would be to gather all the information you can to back your position, and be prepared to do battle when the fight comes to you. Do not go out looking for the fight.

Blessing,


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## Bill The Baptist (Jan 29, 2015)

Tyrese said:


> People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.



If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?


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## mgkortus (Jan 29, 2015)

If you want a scientific perspective:

With regards to the flu vaccines - they are based on predictions. Every year, a new strain of flu virus causes the vast majority of flu cases. This is due to viral evolution as it adapts to overcome the immune system. Researchers make educated predictions when they design flu vaccines. Therefore, certain years, the flu vaccine is very effective, while other years it seems to do little to guard against the flu. 

With regards to other diseases such as polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, etc. - these are proven vaccines that effectively prevent disease. A decision not to utilize them leaves your children susceptible to such diseases. That said, chances are, at least in America, that if you chose not vaccinate your children, they likely will not get one of these diseases, such as polio. That is because of "herd-immunity" - the vast majority of the US population is not susceptible to these diseases. This means the majority of people we interact with/encounter do not carry the disease; therefore, though one may not be protected (immunized) against it, he/she likely will never encounter the disease. 
This only works though because of established "herd immunity." There are instances, where small groups of people who have not taken a given vaccine will open the door for the disease to re-manifest itself. This happened several years ago (2005) in a small Amish community in Minnesota - they came down with poliovirus because they chose not to vaccinate. If not for the broader herd immunity that exists, this could have caused another large-scale outbreak of this dreadful disease. 

As a scientist (I specifically studied poliovirus for three years of my career), I urge you to utilize such established vaccines for the sake of your family, as well as your surrounding community. With regards to the flu vaccine - I do not have similarly strong feelings. I personally do not get the flu vaccine each year because of the limitations associated with it.


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## Tyrese (Jan 29, 2015)

Bill The Baptist;1068326 we should take lightly said:


> If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?



Without getting into whether or not I think your question is a good question, please keep the intent of my post in view. The point is many people are concerned about the flu; that's just a fact that none of us can avoid. Having a "no big deal" mentality demonstrates a lack of love for the concerns of others. Reliable sources tell us that the flu shot is not 100% reliable (but then again what is 100% reliable), so we should be mindful of other peoples children even if they've received their flu shots. This goes beyond the flu, this is as simple as helping other parents keep their children away from the common cold. Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, but there's other times when parents bring there children to a public gathering when they're are obviously sick, miserable, and contagious. Why do such a thing unless you're downplaying the severity of different viruses? Not to mention different viruses effect people differently. In no way do I plan to go back and forth with you over the matter as I don't see it as a matter for debate. I don't see why anyone would even want to argue over this. We have to treat others the way we would like to be treated, and remember Philippians 2:3.


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## SRoper (Jan 29, 2015)

Vaccination is probably the single greatest medical advancement ever. There is no "controversy"--to decline or delay vaccination is simply nuts. Vaccinations are not 100% effective, so those who refuse to vaccinate put everyone at increased risk. Those who refuse to vaccinate the same as pacifists who refuse to defend their families and their nation. Frankly, it is a moral issue.


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## mgkortus (Jan 29, 2015)

Bill The Baptist said:


> If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?



The possibility exists that especially viral diseases adapt/evolve so that the immunity provided by the vaccine is no longer sufficient for protection. This can also be seen in antibiotic-resistant bacteria - they develop resistance to specific antibiotics, that would normally work for treatment. 

Non-vaccinated children can provide the reservoir for such adaptation/evolution.


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## Christoffer (Jan 29, 2015)

mgkortus said:


> If you want a scientific perspective:
> 
> With regards to the flu vaccines - they are based on predictions. Every year, a new strain of flu virus causes the vast majority of flu cases. This is due to viral evolution as it adapts to overcome the immune system. Researchers make educated predictions when they design flu vaccines. Therefore, certain years, the flu vaccine is very effective, while other years it seems to do little to guard against the flu.
> 
> ...



Thanks. We are vaccinated against polio, measles etc.

I am mainly thinking about flu vaccines now


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## DeniseM (Jan 29, 2015)

SRoper said:


> Vaccination is probably the single greatest medical advancement ever. There is no "controversy"--to decline or delay vaccination is simply nuts. Vaccinations are not 100% effective, so those who refuse to vaccinate put everyone at increased risk. Those who refuse to vaccinate the same as pacifists who refuse to defend their families and their nation. Frankly, it is a moral issue.


A quick search brought up this example of medical reason not to give your child a specific vaccine:
*Your child should not have MMR if they have:
significant immunosupression
severe allergies to neomycin or kanamycin (types of antibiotic)
had a severe reaction to MMR before.
*You can read the page in full here.
The instances of children that cannot be vaccinated are likely more common than you are aware of. I gave an example, in my post above, of our son that can't take the flu shot because of an egg allergy. Another of our children had a severe reaction at each of his routine vaccinations, until we as parents made the choice to delay the remainder of his shots until we and our doctor thought it would be safe. Our doctor supports the delay of vaccines, if so desired by the parents and certainly doesn't make us feel like we're 'nuts' for doing so. I stand by my statement above, that each family will have to examine all of the factors in their particular circumstances and make the best decision that they can for their own families.


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## Jack K (Jan 29, 2015)

If you enjoy getting the flu, you should be free to say "no" to the shots. Just be sure to stay away from the rest of us if you get sick so that you don't share your enjoyment with us. 

The idea you have that there's an international conspiracy really is the core issue. I urge you to question your conspiracy theory. Large-scale conspiracies of the sort you're talking about are incredibly difficult to maintain in democratic societies, and therefore unlikely. This one would take the evil cooperation of thousands of highly educated medical professionals and scientists, all of whom have free access to the Internet. In this communications age, it is unlikely that they are all subjecting us to misinformation.

I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy. It may be that this is not the case. I don't mean to accuse you. But it seems prudent to consider the possibility, at least. It's so easy for all of us to fall into patterns of worry, myself included. And conspiracy-theory thinking is one way worry reveals itself at times, in some of us. So I suspect it is worth considering whether or not Matthew 6:25 and following, which addresses worry and anxiety, is something you might take to heart.


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## jambo (Jan 29, 2015)

It is of course your decision but I feel it's a no brainer. As a diabetic I get a flu injection every year and thankful for it. An odd year there is an additional one such as the year swine flu was doing the rounds. In terms of children, the risks that come from not getting them vaccinated are much greater than the risks associated with the vaccine itself.


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## johnc (Jan 29, 2015)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?



Interestingly, just today at lunch at work, one of my coworkers brought up vaccinations out-of-the-blue in relation to the measles outbreak in California. He said he thinks any parent who does not vaccinate their children should be sued if they catch a disease they could be vaccinated for. Also, just today, USA Today had this opinion piece.

Jail 'anti-vax' parents: Column

On many online discussion forums, if the topic comes up, anyone who does not vaccinate their children is usually cruelly ridiculed. I think the US is much farther down the path of persecution of people who do not vaccinate their children than you may realize. We vaccinated our children for the recommended childhood vaccines but do not get the flu shot. What happens when some more controversial vaccine becomes a requirement such as the HPV vaccine for teenage girls (it's highly recommended now)? This is more a lifestyle behavior vaccine than anything else and has been associated with some nasty side effects. I worry about the future in this area and hope my children become adults before it becomes a more serious issue.


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## earl40 (Jan 29, 2015)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Tyrese said:
> 
> 
> > People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.
> ...



I would be concerned for the child who is not vaccinated. I know that some times people are forced to go under treatment against their wishes and in some cases I am OK with this. Each case presents different circumstances. Take for instance my "case". I have 2 children with CF and I know it would be a sinful choice if I did not vaccinate. What we are seeing here is a "case" of people who do not trust the government to force something they think is harmful. I can understand the lack of trust, though I do not agree that in this area of conversation I believe one ought to vaccinate for MMR. Would I make him do such? I am afraid many would not like my answer to that question. For the flu I am less dogmatic about this UNLESS a child ought to get it because of this I mentioned above.


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## Hamalas (Jan 29, 2015)

Jack K said:


> If you enjoy getting the flu, you should be free to say "no" to the shots. Just be sure to stay away from the rest of us if you get sick so that you don't share your enjoyment with us.
> 
> The idea you have that there's an international conspiracy really is the core issue. I urge you to question your conspiracy theory. Large-scale conspiracies of the sort you're talking about are incredibly difficult to maintain in democratic societies, and therefore unlikely. This one would take the evil cooperation of thousands of highly educated medical professionals and scientists, all of whom have free access to the Internet. In this communications age, it is unlikely that they are all subjecting us to misinformation.
> 
> I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy. It may be that this is not the case. I don't mean to accuse you. But it seems prudent to consider the possibility, at least. It's so easy for all of us to fall into patterns of worry, myself included. And conspiracy-theory thinking is one way worry reveals itself at times, in some of us. So I suspect it is worth considering whether or not Matthew 6:25 and following, which addresses worry and anxiety, is something you might take to heart.



Amen. One of the biggest problems with conspiracy theories is that they are often designed to be impossible to disprove.


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## LilyG (Jan 29, 2015)

I hear much of the concern is that certain vaccines are linked to autism. But so far, frankly I think it is bad science.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 29, 2015)

Vaccines are variable in efficacy. Measles is reputed to be 99% effective; the one for the flu (this year) is more of a miss than a hit.

I am in my 60s and get a flu shot annually (originally due to my former work in a medical related field of a large senior care community). Most years it protects me. This year it did not. My M.O. following the flu is to develop a cough for 2-3 weeks that triggers a vasovagal syncope several times a day. My cough is still with me from the flu on January 5. The last time I got the flu (a few years ago) it resulted in a cough that led to my first experience with this syncope. Passing out on the busy 5 freeway in L.A. at 8 in the morning, my car drifted across two lanes, struck the wall, jumped a guard rail, careened down a hillside and into a residential neighborhood. I woke up after having struck an island around a tree with the tires at 45 degree angles to the car, the front end crushed, and steam rising out of the hood. Praise the Lord that nobody was hurt or killed by my 65 mph UNguided missile.

In other words, the flu is a life and death issue for me. I greatly appreciate my neighbors caring enough to tamp down the odds of an epidemic by immunizing. So, whether one can trust Big Brother or not, the side-effects of immunizations are statistically less significant than the likely numbers of deaths and serious disease due to the illness. So, for me, that means it is a no-brainer issue . . . practically and ethically.

As for the measles, it is EXTREMELY contagious, more so than the flu. And, the vaccine for the measles is MUCH more effective than that for the flu. So, prudence might lead some to get effective vaccinations and pass on the less effective ones. I will get them all.


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## Edward (Jan 29, 2015)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations.



A perhaps too narrow reading of the commandment. 

" The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;"

The duty appears to be to a larger group than just your family.


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## Edward (Jan 29, 2015)

I would note in general that one of the practices of those most diligent in their Islamic faith in Pakistan is to murder those who vaccinate children against Polio. I suppose they could be smarter and more educated than me, since I had both Salk and Sabin.


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## tabrooks (Jan 29, 2015)

actually, i've had the same impression of the anti-vax movement.


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## tabrooks (Jan 29, 2015)

tabrooks said:


> actually, i've had the same impression of the anti-vax movement.



Flu can have some serious complications, particularly for the young, elderly and those with compromised immune systems. The risks of taking a vaccine are minimal compared to the benefit for yourself and others.


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## tabrooks (Jan 29, 2015)

tabrooks said:


> tabrooks said:
> 
> 
> > actually, i've had the same impression of the anti-vax movement.
> ...



he most common flu complications include viral or bacterial pneumonia, ear infections and sinus infections, especially in children, dehydration, and worsening of chronic medical conditions, such as congestive heart failure, asthma, or diabetes.

Other complications include muscle inflammation (myositis), central nervous system disease, and heart problems including heart attacks, inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis), and inflammation of the sac around the heart (pericarditis).

Those at highest risk for flu complications include adults over 65, children ages 6 months to 4 years, nursing home residents, adults and children with heart or lung disease, people with compromised immune systems (including people with HIV/AIDS), and pregnant women." Flu Complications: Heart Problems, Ear or Sinus Infections, and More


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## tabrooks (Jan 29, 2015)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Tyrese said:
> 
> 
> > People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.
> ...



The vaccines work, but only on a percentage of those vaccinated. This is why you hear the phrase 'herd immunity' in these sorts of discussions. Someone not choosing to vaccinate DOES expose other vaccinated children to potential danger (say, for example, that 85% developed an immunity, but 15% did not).


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## Christoffer (Jan 30, 2015)

johnc said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?
> ...



I agree with your feelings here. Persecution and belittling of those who don't vaccinate is getting stronger. This already suggests something satanic at work. Truth does not need these kind of methods.

It is most important to realize that it is impossible to say what the net benefit of vaccines have been. Sure polio and measles are gone, but is that due to vaccines or would they have disappeared anyway? And if we assume that vaccines are to thank, at what price has this victory come? What would we NOT have suffered from today without the vaccines? Science does not prove these kinds of things, it cannot deal with counterfactuals. There are no grounds for a dogmatic pro-vaccine stance, yet many assume it. Why? At least the church should allow freedom of conscience.

How does one know that the risk associated with the flu shot is less than the risk associated with getting sick? Is it even possible to know this? Yet this is what many people claim.



> I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy.



My reasons for believing in a conspiracy are just based on normal assumptions. Political power can ultimately only be one, and one will either rule or be ruled. Those with means (captains of business, rich folk) will have the means for insuring themselves against being ruled (by buying off the political process). They will pervert and stupify the people to insure against revolution etc. Also cleanse the population, weed it out just like the economy weeds out unproductive business. There is nothing strange about this, it follows from "normal" human behaviour.

This is the realistic view to take of history. I really can't see how one could believe anything else without assuming some inherent goodness in man.

But lets start another thread for that if needed. Otherwise this risks branching out too much.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 30, 2015)

Edward said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations.
> ...



Yes, your family would be just one of the places to apply the commandments. I apologize for only selecting one facet of the diamond.


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## Christoffer (Jan 30, 2015)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Southern Presbyterian said:
> ...



Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.

Isn't it possible to interpret this in such a way that those who believe themselves/their family to be more at risk need to take the necessary precautions in order to protect themselves and let others follow their consciences. Is this not loving ones neighbour? 

Cannot the demand of the 6th commandment be applied in this way?


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## calgal (Jan 30, 2015)

To the Parent of the Unvaccinated Child Who Exposed my Family to Measles | Kid Nurse Sir the reason you are getting pushback is contained in this article. Same logic applies that makes folks accommodate dietary requests: 1 Corinthians 8:13. In this case weaker is literal. It is the person or people with various forms of cancer and various conditions and diseases that make "just getting the flu" something more serious. And measles and mumps? There was a reason in my parent's day sufferers from these diseases were quarantined. 

Allow me to be blunt: Most of you can have a bad day or two with a flu and go on with things. My immune system is a bit busy trying to find the pancreas that no longer works. I get the flu, it is a guaranteed trip to the ER and a strong possibility of DKA (look it up. Ketoacidosis is not funny and is painfully real. It put me in the hospital once and I prefer not to lose another week of my life thank you). The herd immunity and vaccines serve as a way to protet the allergic and immunocompromised folks. Also known as the weaker bretheren and sisters.


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## Gavin (Jan 30, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.
> 
> it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."



Not sure how this ties in with the church, but maybe it is associated in Finland?
Off topic but I reformed my diet and exersise a little over a year ago and haven't had flu or a cold since. I m o if there is anything to be sceptical against it is the food industry.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jan 30, 2015)

While I think the medical benefits of vaccines are well established, what do you think of the ethical implications of vaccines as it pertains to the use of fetal tissue in their preparation? Vaccines and Fetal Tissues | The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia


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## Edward (Jan 30, 2015)

Christoffer said:


> Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.



Well, the language in quotes isn't my interpretation - it is that of the Westminster divines, to which I have subscribed. 

How it works is this - if a child has a known allergy to an ingredient or a compromised immune system, the parent needs to accommodate that. If the child is able to tolerate it, the parent owes a duty to the community to protect those who can't vaccinate, or for whom the vaccination is not effective. 

As for conspiracy theories - I collect them; seeing what is really going on just means that you are probably more perceptive than most. But unlike many conspiracy theorists, I know that there is nothing I can do about them and don't fret about them.


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## Christoffer (Jan 30, 2015)

Edward said:


> Christoffer said:
> 
> 
> > Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.
> ...



The question begging part is interpreting it as it is the duty of those who can vaccinate to protect those who can't. This assumes that vaccines are a positive thing. What if the parents of a child are convinced that they are useless at best, harmful at worst?

And, what if they are right?

These are the central questions.

If the government makes vaccinations mandatory I will comply without protest. No big deal after all in the grand scheme of things. having a clean conscience however is more important.

That is why I am trying to figure out the moral oughts here.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 30, 2015)

This is not going to resolve itself beyond what has been said. Folks, if you need advice on vaccines see your doctor.

Reactions: Funny 1


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