# Accept elders' view when confused about baptism?



## Kim G (Mar 27, 2012)

My husband and I are looking for a church since our church shut down last month. We have been credo-baptist by default (we grew up that way). I am the lay-theologian in the family (I do all the reading and research and then report my findings to my husband for discussion). Recently we visited a Presbyterian church that we loved from the beginning and want to continue attending.

Here's our problem: we are not convinced paedobaptists, but we're not convinced credo-only baptists either. I see both sides and agree with whichever theologian I happen to read. My husband and I have gone over and over this issue, and we come away more and more confused. If we were to join the Presbyterian church, should we submit ourselves to the elders there and have our two children baptised? If we believed it were best to defer to the elders, then I could be a comfortable paedobaptist. Or would that be sin since were not 100% convinced of our own accord?


----------



## SolaScriptura (Mar 27, 2012)

Here's my take:

Baptising your children is important. But it isn't most important. I suggest that if you guys liked the church, that you keep going to it. Get involved in the life of the church. You'll find that presbyterians don't just sit around talking about infant baptism. 
Sit under the regular preaching of the Word, ask questions of the elders, continue to read, and eventually you'll likely see how and why we do what we do. Or maybe you won't. In which case, at least you've been in a good church that teaches the Scriptures sincerely, as rightly as we can.


----------



## Scott1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the church closing.

How best to answer the question of joining and submitting to the authorities God has placed in the church would depend a bit on the membership vows.

In the PCA, membership vows are to peaceably study the church's doctrine and to submit to the government and discipline of the church. Over the long term, one could not comfortably remain opposed to infant baptism (in doctrine or belief) because it is part and parcel of church life. An indifferent attitude about it would be likewise.

However, from what you describe, you could attend at first as a "regular attender" (thinking in PCA terms) while you consider this doctrine. You ought explain your struggle with this to an elder and perhaps also take confidence in another mature member in the congregation there. 

Membership would require class, with instruction in doctrine, which is an additional opportunity to explore this.

If you were convinced of adult only baptism, that would be different. But, I'm not hearing that, you are truly trying to understand this, and overcoming a lot of past implicit practice.

And if during the process, you were to become convinced of adult only baptism (you will find biblical Presbyterians also baptize adults by profession of faith), then you must find a communion that examples that.

It is, as others have mentioned, very important not to be "out of fellowship" for an extended time. The important thing is to commit to an imperfect body that does not have major doctrinal difference with what you understand Scripture teaches. Even if you are unsettled in one significant area of doctrine. 

Let us know how we can pray for you along this process, whatever you decide to do.


----------



## rbcbob (Mar 27, 2012)

Kim, the doctrine of baptism is of the first importance in one's ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) and ought to be prayerfully considered from the Word of God. However, being unsure about that doctrine ought not keep you from worshipping the Lord among His people. If this Presbyterian church has godly, qualified elders; if they preach the Word of God faithfully; if they carefully tend the souls of Christ's sheep, then your family may flourish among them. Should your husband and yourself come to a mature and settled conviction of believers-baptism and wish to continue worshipping with these faithful paedo-baptists then perhaps the officers of the church would allow you to continue among them peaceably.


----------



## Romans922 (Mar 27, 2012)

I'd sit down and talk to the elders of the church you are considering. It is likely they have counseled other families in the same situation as you. Then use godly wisdom in determining what to do.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 27, 2012)

If you are looking for a church in the Greenville area I highly recommend Unity Presbyterian Church - Home .


----------



## Jack K (Mar 27, 2012)

Kim G said:


> If we were to join the Presbyterian church, should we submit ourselves to the elders there and have our two children baptised? If we believed it were best to defer to the elders, then I could be a comfortable paedobaptist. Or would that be sin since were not 100% convinced of our own accord?



If it's a typical PCA church and the elders are godly and skilled, they'll avoid putting you in a situation where you have to choose between following what the church urges and following your conscience. Rather, they'll work to develop your appreciation for Presbyterian teaching and shepherd you gently through this. And most PCA elders in your area will have experience with this issue. You likely aren't the first.

You like this church, presumably, because you see godliness there. I suspect you'll find that carries over into discussions you end up having about baptism.


----------



## travstar (Mar 27, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> If you are looking for a church in the Greenville area I highly recommend Unity Presbyterian Church - Home .



I think they found a Presbyterian church they like already, except for the Presbyterian part of it.  

Seriously, though, I will pray about this, as I had roughly the same issue. Keep attending and seek godly counsel from the elders; they'll have seen this before (and, Lord willing, just about every other issue you might have besides). Godspeed.


----------



## Marrow Man (Mar 27, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> If you are looking for a church in the Greenville area I highly recommend Unity Presbyterian Church - Home .





The Missus and I were members there when I was in seminary. The pastor is a member of the PB (albeit not very active).


----------



## Martin (Mar 27, 2012)

When you get baptism figured out, please let me know. I have been working on it for quite a while.


----------



## Edward (Mar 27, 2012)

Kim G said:


> and have our two children baptised?



I don't disagree with what the others have said, but there are a couple of points I'd like to hit upon. One would be the age of the children. the Confession says 'infant' children should be baptized. At some age, the children should wait until they make profession. Whether your children are 'infants' or not is something that should be explored with the elders. 

Second, I would suggest having the discussion before you join. Some sessions, even within the same presbytery, are likely to take a harder or softer view on the subject.


----------



## Kim G (Mar 27, 2012)

Edward said:


> The Confession says 'infant' children should be baptized. At some age, the children should wait until they make profession. Whether your children are 'infants' or not is something that should be explored with the elders.



Our children are 2 years old and 5 months old. But now I'm even more confused. If paedobaptism is a household baptism into the covenant by virtue of the parents' faith, why does the age of the child matter, as long as they do not profess unbelief?


----------



## CharlieJ (Mar 27, 2012)

Usually, it doesn't make a difference. There might be gray areas for, say, a teenager. At the age of your children, there's no question.


----------



## fredtgreco (Mar 27, 2012)

CharlieJ said:


> Usually, it doesn't make a difference. There might be gray areas for, say, a teenager. At the age of your children, there's no question.


I agree with Charlie. Typically, we are talking about at least 12 and up to have this issue.


----------



## Mushroom (Mar 27, 2012)

Several of the dearest saints in our PCA congregation are credo-baptist members. They accept that they will not occupy Church Office, and have to endure some loving needling from me and a few others, but seem to be very happy worshipping there. I would be very sad to see them leave.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

I've seen 5 kids in one family baptized at once, the eldest was 12. A truly blessed event.


----------



## KMK (Mar 27, 2012)

In all honesty, does the average Presbyterian congregant understand exactly why infants are baptized? I have found that not many average baptistic types understand why they don't baptize infants.


----------



## Iconoclast (Mar 28, 2012)

Have you visit here?

Visit Grace Baptist this Sunday!


----------



## Scott1 (Mar 28, 2012)

KMK said:


> In all honesty, does the average Presbyterian congregant understand exactly why infants are baptized? I have found that not many average baptistic types understand why they don't baptize infants.



Anecdotal evidence, the "average" understanding of the PCA congregation is pretty high, and quite high relative to other communions in relation to that issue.

Membership will involve studying the issue, membership vows reinforce the importance of confession, authority God ordains, accountability, etc. And baptizing infants is a sacrament, with extended teaching every time it happens. So the ordinance itself is not only an example, but also a teaching point. It is part and parcel of presbyterian covenant theology so it comes up in various contexts in Sunday school.

"Covenant children" know about it too, they are "special" and know it.


----------



## Kim G (Mar 28, 2012)

Iconoclast said:


> Have you visit here?
> 
> Visit Grace Baptist this Sunday!



I have had a few people mention this church to me. However, their church constitution requires signing that you will use corporal punishment on your children. I believe that corporal punishment CAN be used, but not that it MUST be used. And any church that thinks spanking is such an important topic that they put it in the constitution is not a church I'm interested in joining.

Besides, even if we ended up attending a Baptist church, we don't want to be uncommitted credobaptists any more than we want to be unconvinced paedobaptists. Either way we need God's help to work through this issue.


----------



## Jack K (Mar 28, 2012)

Kim G said:


> their church constitution requires signing that you will use corporal punishment on your children.



Yikes! A requirement for membership?!


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Mar 28, 2012)

Kim,
There are *lots* of theological points that you accept _in principle,_ and not because you have an exquisite understanding of them.

Let me be clear: any such thing like this baptism question that you are wrestling with in a more pronounced way--if you think you should be more settled on it before joining a church (of whatever persuasion) then you should make a strong effort to get settled in your conscience.

But do not forget that in joining a church, you are basically looking for faithful shepherds, and teachers who are plainly enough devoted to, and knowledgeable in, the Scriptures. Unless you are a fully trained theologian yourself, you cannot help but trust your leaders not to misguide you. You pray that Jesus would direct you to such a place, and then you spend the rest of your time there praying that Christ would keep the same leadership (even with changes within) on the safe and narrow path.

Its a fact of life that we can't all be experts in every field. God makes us dependent on one another, and then he provides for us through one another. "He gave some to be [our] pastors teachers" Eph.4:11.

I'm not calling you to "implicit faith" in a Romanist sense. Anything the church believes and teaches it should attempt to prove to anyone by recourse to the Scriptures, never hiding behind a "just trust us" screen. Wherever you join, you need to have as much (or more) confidence in the methods and modes of the teachers as you have in yourself. Then, at least, you have confidence in their competence, if not in your ability to do reproduce the doctrine yourself.

Illustration: as a child you trusted your mother to put edible food on the table and you ate it, not knowing what it consisted of, how it was prepared, where it came from, or what it cost. You trusted MOM. But Mom wasn't perfect. You could have got food-poisoning inadvertently. Does that mean you shouldn't have trusted her? Of course not. And, as time went by she taught you as much of the rest of it, so that today you can prepare her a meal. But not everyone she fed must have become a competent chef. Someone will always have to be fed, rather than feed others. But because of the division of labor, these same persons contribute to their family in other ways.


So, the basic thrust of this post is to say: I recommend getting comfortable with a proper view of being led as sheep, in all manner of theology. By all means, with regard to baptism and membership, if your conscience requires it, determine your conviction beforehand. Just realize that after this issue, there will be others. The vital issue is: how does this church go about finding its answers, and has that commitment shown itself in a commitment to a sound theological framework?


----------



## Organgrinder (Mar 28, 2012)

I"ve been wondering about baptism as well. My wife and I are soon to be empty nesters. I would like to leave the SBC for the OPC. None of our kids would follow us into the OPC anyway. 

How important should the baptism issue be to us? The OPC will accept our baptisms and we will have no infant children to baptize. We would only be watching others baptize their infants. I think I am closer to accepting paedobaptism than my wife is. Hopefully she will have a teachable spirit. It is better teaching and reverent worship that is motivation us to make this change.


----------



## Scottish Lass (Mar 29, 2012)

We've had families like this when we were at Unity. As the others have said, explain your situation to the elders. You won't be the first family to come to them, unless the church is pretty new.


----------



## jwithnell (Mar 29, 2012)

> I would like to leave the SBC for the OPC ... How important should the baptism issue be to us? The OPC will accept our baptisms and we will have no infant children to baptize.



Your profession of faith and your willingness to serve peacefully within the congregation would be the primary concerns. You might want to re-read Rev. Buchanan's reply which is an excellent explanation of the issue.

In general: I think most Presbyterians would prefer see lively interest in an issue rather than apathy. We should all be actively seeking to submit our minds to the scriptures.


----------

