# Carl Trueman's theology



## StephenMartyr (Nov 10, 2020)

I don't know if this is the right forum for this, so if you want to move it, go ahead.

Just wondering what people here think of Carl Trueman. What's his theology like? I ask because this book below seems interesting:









The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution (Trueman)


Puritan and Reformed books at discounted prices.




www.heritagebooks.org





What would one expect from him?

Thanks!


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2020)

He's a recognized scholar on John Owen. That is his expertise. I can't say one way or another on this book.


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 10, 2020)

CT was for many years professor at Westminster TS (east). In the last few years, he went to Grove City College to teach undergrads. He is a minister in the OPC.

I think very highly of CT. He brings an "English/Scottish Presbyterian" perspective to our American/N.A. scene, in a way I think parallels John Murray's and Sinclair Ferguson's influence. during the previous century. He is also an important thinker who is trying to help today's church understand the ideas and trends that seemingly have produced recent and unprecedented changes in the surrounding western culture.

But there are no "overnight" changes to a culture. That is a myth, and dangerous. The triumph of the strand of philosophy and ethics driving the West into a storm of chaos, with a fundamental belief in the "imperative of change" (which some persons hope to rope and ride to future dominance and everlasting memory) is an unveiling of the outcome of decades of shifting, bit by bit, while the facade of stability held firm.

CT's analysis is his attempt to make sense of how the culture, and the church existing within it's temporal ambit, has come to this place; and what being here and the present trend may bode for the future.

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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Steve Hays from Triablogue would interact with CT from time to time. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism. I just know that Steve was well respected by some here at the PB.

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## arapahoepark (Nov 10, 2020)

His book is amazing so far!


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## Reformed Quest (Nov 10, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> this book . . . seems interesting


Carl Trueman was interviewed on his new book by the guys at the Reformed Forum https://reformedforum.org/podcasts/ctc670/

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## StephenMartyr (Nov 10, 2020)

Thanks for your replies! I might give the book a go


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## mvdm (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Steve Hays from Triablogue would interact with CT from time to time. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism. I just know that Steve was well respected by some here at the PB.


Hays had a way with getting to the nub of things.

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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Steve Hays from Triablogue would interact with CT from time to time. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism. I just know that Steve was well respected by some here at the PB.


Never been a fan of him. He always seems angry about something. In my mind, his face is stuck in a perpetual scowl.

To the OP (I'm so easily distracted), I look forward to reading the book. Although I've already read enough of Trueman's articles on _First Things _and elsewhere that I have a pretty good idea what he's going to say.


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## Guido's Brother (Nov 10, 2020)

If I'm not mistaken, he carries ordination credentials from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. That should say something.


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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> Never been a fan of him. He always seems angry about something. In my mind, his face is stuck in a perpetual scowl.



I was only addressing the OP, “What's his theology like?” As Reformed believers we are concerned with faith and practice, which leads to the _application_ of theological precepts. Steve thought at the presuppositional level as well as with respect to trajectory.

Steve was a friend. He might not have always been gentle but I never knew him not to be challenging. I think he challenged Dr. T in a manner worthy of consideration. Nuff said.


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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Guido's Brother said:


> If I'm not mistaken, he carries ordination credentials from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. That should say something.



CT, not SH.


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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> I was only addressing the OP, “What's his theology like?” As Reformed believers we are concerned with faith and practice, which leads to the _application_ of theological precepts.
> 
> Steve was a friend. He might not have always been gentle but I never knew him not to be challenging. I think he challenged Dr. T in a manner worthy of consideration. Nuff said.


_Was_ a friend? Is he gone?

If you never knew him not to be challenging, all the more pity he couldn't communicate in a tone that invited more readership. I used to subscribe to Triablogue, back in RSS-feeder days, but got tired of the tone. It was a drain on my day. (Related reason I stopped listening to The Briefing, incidentally. I'm no eternal optimist, but.. really. Listening to a constant stream of that kind of stuff can't be good for you.)


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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> _Was_ a friend? Is he gone?
> 
> If you never knew him not to be challenging, all the more pity he couldn't communicate in a tone that invited more readership. I used to subscribe to Triablogue, back in RSS-feeder days, but got tired of the tone. It was a drain on my day. (Related reason I stopped listening to The Briefing, incidentally. I'm no eternal optimist, but.. really. Listening to a constant stream of that kind of stuff can't be good for you.)



“If you never knew him not to be challenging, all the more pity he couldn't communicate in a tone that invited more readership.”

Brother, if I were to say about Jones, “I never knew him not to be kind,” would that suggest that I never knew Jones not to balance his checkbook? Balancing a checkbook is not about kindness. My remark pertained to Steve’s blog. He took a calculated risk on how he presented himself. As a general rule he challenged his readers to think. Read his comments on CT if you wish to be challenged on CT.


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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> “If you never knew him not to be challenging, all the more pity he couldn't communicate in a tone that invited more readership.”
> 
> Brother, if I were to say about Jones, “I never knew him not to be kind,” would that suggest that I never knew Jones not to balance his checkbook? Balancing a checkbook is not about kindness. My remark pertained to Steve’s blog. As a general rule he challenged his readers to think. Read his comments on CT if you wish to be challenged on CT.H


Hmm... I see my comment, and I see your response.

What's missing is a connection between the two.


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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> Hmm... I see my comment, and I see your response.
> 
> What's missing is a connection between the two.



Really? Feel free to elaborate. I’m merely sticking to what’s relevant but perhaps you have issues with Steve.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Steve Hays from Triablogue would interact with CT from time to time. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism. I just know that Steve was well respected by some here at the PB.



I miss Steve. He was able to bring a level of critical analysis to an issue while still presenting it at a semi-popular level.

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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I miss Steve. He was able to bring a level of critical analysis to an issue while still presenting it at a semi-popular level.



I miss him too (and for similar reasons).

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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Really? Feel free to elaborate. I’m merely sticking to what’s relevant but perhaps you have issues with Steve.


Hardly.

I granted you that his blog may have been challenging, but that he likely lost readership (I doubt I was the only one) through his tone and what I perceived to be a constant belligerence. I said if you found his stuff edifying, it was a pity he wasn't able to enjoy and keep a broader readership (like me, in this case). 

It was a pretty neutral statement, as things go.


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## User20004000 (Nov 10, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> Hardly.
> 
> I granted you that his blog may have been challenging, but that he likely lost readership (I doubt I was the only one) through his tone and what I perceived to be a constant belligerence. I said if you found his stuff edifying, it was a pity he wasn't able to enjoy and keep a broader readership (like me, in this case).
> 
> It was a pretty neutral statement, as things go.



Steve might’ve gone deeper in untangling this obfuscation but I’m unwilling.

Blessings to you.


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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Steve might’ve gone deeper in untangling this obfuscation but I’m unwilling.
> 
> Blessings to you.


You read what you want to read, brother. The words are there.

Blessings.


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## Andrew35 (Nov 10, 2020)

RWD said:


> Ironically delicious. Hays, Manata, Ghost of DiGiacomo.


I prefer mint chocolate chip myself.


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## Kinghezy (Nov 11, 2020)

Reformed Quest said:


> Carl Trueman was interviewed on his new book by the guys at the Reformed Forum https://reformedforum.org/podcasts/ctc670/




Camden Bucey sent the following to people subscribed to Reformed Forum:

Dr. Carl R. Trueman joined me to speak about his significant new book, _The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution_ (Crossway), in which he addresses the factors undergirding modern culture’s obsession with identity. This is perhaps the most significant book I have read in the last few years.

chris, I highly recommend that you read the book in order to understand the cultural and philosophical influences that have given rise to our present moment.

Sexual identity in particular has dominated public discourse since the landmark Obergefell v. Hodges Supreme Court decision in 2015. Tracing influential thought from Augustine to Marx and beyond, Trueman explains the historical and intellectual phenomenon of the modern conception selfhood. Trueman writes,



> My aim is to explain how and why a certain notion of the self has come to dominate the culture of the West, why this self finds its most obvious manifestation in the transformation of sexual mores, and what the wider implications of this transformation are and may well be in the future.


Dr. Trueman is professor of biblical and religious studies at Grove City College. He is an esteemed church historian and previously served as the William E. Simon Fellow in Religion and Public Life at Princeton University. Trueman has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including _The Creedal Imperative_, _Luther on the Christian Life_, and _Histories and Fallacies_.

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## Pilgrim (Nov 11, 2020)

I stopped reading Triablogue regularly years ago, mainly because it simply got to be too much to keep up with. 

It is interesting that Trueman is still a contributor to First Things, which otherwise seems to completely gone off the rails, repudiating the vision of its founder in favor of integralism. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## RobertPGH1981 (Nov 11, 2020)

The Reformed Forum Podcast had him on as a guest to talk about hits book recently. After listening to it I decided to get the book. Its in shipment too my house now. Haven't read it but I am sure it would be good based upon what I heard in the podcast. 

Reformed Forum - Carl Truman

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## bookish_Basset (Nov 13, 2020)

I've always benefited from reading and listening to Dr. Trueman. He's had a very positive influence on me over the years as a believer and also as a student of history. 

I noticed that Public Discourse ran two articles by Trueman this week which seem to deal with the themes of his upcoming book, so these would probably give you a taste of his argument. I thought both were excellent. (I'm only posting the link for the first, because there's a 2nd Commandment violation on the second post -- which I'm confident was the blog editor's doing and not CT's -- and couldn't figure out how to post the link without the thumbnail image popping up right here. But you can easily find the second article, "The Impact of Psychological Man," on the PD homepage.)









The Rise of “Psychological Man”


The notions that human flourishing is found primarily in an inner sense of wellbeing, that authenticity is found by being able to act outwardly as one feels inwardly, and that who we are is largely a matter of personal choice not external imposition have become common intuitions that lie at the hear




www.thepublicdiscourse.com

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## A.Joseph (Nov 13, 2020)

I love Trueman. He’s not bogged down by American politics but he has always taken hard stands on contemporary threats to sound doctrine, reformed confessions and church practice. Overall, he’s gospel and theology focused and is an excellent historian from this layman’s perspective. I need mature men like him in my life because in various ways I am and will always be a recovering legalist. It’s been my burden to bear unfortunately. (I’ve also been blessed to sit under two of the most mature, grounded and theologically faithful pastors over the past 6 years. So I’m truly blessed in this regard).

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## A.Joseph (Nov 13, 2020)

Kinghezy said:


> Camden Bucey sent the following to people subscribed to Reformed Forum:
> 
> Dr. Carl R. Trueman joined me to speak about his significant new book, _The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution_ (Crossway), in which he addresses the factors undergirding modern culture’s obsession with identity. This is perhaps the most significant book I have read in the last few years.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I have to get this book!

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## Timmay (Nov 13, 2020)

I bought the book on crossway using their + members deal. Got a hard copy, ebook and audio book for like $20 or something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 18, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> I don't know if this is the right forum for this, so if you want to move it, go ahead.
> 
> Just wondering what people here think of Carl Trueman. What's his theology like? I ask because this book below seems interesting:
> 
> ...



Any good in him can be found elsewhere. There's a lot to worry about. He has a reputation as a conservative Reformed guy but this is not earned. He is certainly within the broad Reformed camp, but middle of the road. On any controversial issue within Reformed circles- worship, xmas, halloween for example- I've never heard him take the minority position (i.e. the older Reformed view). He sets himself up as a cantankerous critic of modernity, but he has embraced every innovation within the Reformed camp. And he bears a lot of the responsibility for elevating Aimee Byrd to prominence. I'd stay clear.


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## A.Joseph (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Any good in him can be found elsewhere. There's a lot to worry about. He has a reputation as a conservative Reformed guy but this is not earned. He is certainly within the broad Reformed camp, but middle of the road. On any controversial issue within Reformed circles- worship, xmas, halloween for example- I've never heard him take the minority position (i.e. the older Reformed view). He sets himself up as a cantankerous critic of modernity, but he has embraced every innovation within the Reformed camp. And he bears a lot of the responsibility for elevating Aimee Byrd to prominence. I'd stay clear.


Hey brother, he’s not going to bind consciences. He‘s going to give people something to think about. I’ve been in legalist circles and when you hyper focus on these things they define you and may consume you. I definitely don’t think he’s endorsing or encouraging many of the things you mention. Aimee’s participation was ok and when she crossed the line, Trueman fell on the right side. Maybe he should be a stronger watchman. But I do believe he’s much more discerning in belief, practice and recommendation than you give him credit for.

MoS is not a good source for hardline applications - it’s a whimsical and wise dialogue on current events. I dont like much of the outro music.

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## alexandermsmith (Nov 18, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> Hey brother, he’s not going to bind consciences. He‘s going to give people something to think about. I’ve been in legalist circles and when you hyper focus on these things they define you and may consume you. I definitely don’t think he’s endorsing or encouraging many of the things you mention. Aimee’s participation was ok and when she crossed the line, Trueman fell on the right side. Maybe he should be a stronger watchman. But I do believe he’s much more discerning in belief, practice and recommendation than you give him credit for.
> 
> MoS is not a good source for hardline applications - it’s a whimsical and wise dialogue on current events. I dont like much of the outro music.



MoS is his main output. And evenif it weren't he should be held accountable for what he says there. Ministers today are far too eager to give their opinions, or go off on flights of whimsy. All Christians should be careful about what they say, but especially ministers. We will be held accountable for every word we say. And since when did the Reformed believe that holding to the Biblical principle of worship was "conscience binding" or "legalistic"? And xmas for that matter.

It is not the job of a minister or a theologian to "give people something to think about". It is their job to proclaim the Gospel and to teach the whole counsel of God.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Any good in him can be found elsewhere. There's a lot to worry about. He has a reputation as a conservative Reformed guy but this is not earned. He is certainly within the broad Reformed camp, but middle of the road. On any controversial issue within Reformed circles- worship, xmas, halloween for example- I've never heard him take the minority position (i.e. the older Reformed view). He sets himself up as a cantankerous critic of modernity, but he has embraced every innovation within the Reformed camp. And he bears a lot of the responsibility for elevating Aimee Byrd to prominence. I'd stay clear.


This is a disingenuous reading of the man.

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## arapahoepark (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> MoS is his main output. And evenif it weren't he should be held accountable for what he says there. Ministers today are far too eager to give their opinions, or go off on flights of whimsy. All Christians should be careful about what they say, but especially ministers. We will be held accountable for every word we say.


Oh, how much more for laymen by this logic!

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## A.Joseph (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> MoS is his main output. And evenif it weren't he should be held accountable for what he says there. Ministers today are far too eager to give their opinions, or go off on flights of whimsy. All Christians should be careful about what they say, but especially ministers. We will be held accountable for every word we say. And since when did the Reformed believe that holding to the Biblical principle of worship was "conscience binding" or "legalistic"? And xmas for that matter.
> 
> It is not the job of a minister or a theologian to "give people something to think about". It is their job to proclaim the Gospel and to teach the whole counsel of God.


I’d have to consider specific examples. I don’t want to be a hypocrite and say something has absolutely no value or must be avoided at all costs (newer Reformed view). I’m sure Trueman has met with a lot of strange cultural phenomenon in the States. How do we use our liberty? How do we redeem the time? These are noteworthy considerations. But we are all in different places in our life and come from different backgrounds and life experiences. I think Trueman is seeking to meet people where they are at. I don’t expect my pastors to be saints, they may even have interests that seem out of character. But does this define them? Is it their preoccupation? What is their intent and their heart? What do they keep going back to and proclaim above and beyond all else? I don’t know, again, I’d need more specific examples. But I think we can be charitable, at least up till a point, and then we can start debating.... to see where our hearts really lie. If I’m so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman, maybe what I know to be righteous loses its purity cause it’s causing me to cast stones rather than joy in the righteousness of God. Again, we would need to get into the specifics. Which we may or may not want to get into ...

How is Trueman causing men to stumbling? How does it compare to the good he does?

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## A.Joseph (Nov 18, 2020)

Again, this could potentially go down a road I really don’t want to go....

But we could probably get into older Reformed view vs. a newer Reformed view... I’m sure I would lean more toward older while stumbling toward newer sometimes. This is the Puritanboard after all. But I think the true value of the Puritans is their utter dependency on Jesus. We are surely bombarded with all kinds of distractions. But eventually, God willing, everything will fall into place.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2020)

I've always seen him as a mixed bag. I avoid the Donatist view that anyone who isn't perfect enough is tainted and suspect. I've always disliked MoS because of its format. That said, Trueman is an expert on Luther and John Owen, so when he speaks on them I listen. I've gotten to the point that I really don't buy non-academic works anymore, so it might be a moot point.

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## alexandermsmith (Nov 18, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> I’d have to consider specific examples. I don’t want to be a hypocrite and say something has absolutely no value or must be avoided at all costs (newer Reformed view). I’m sure Trueman has met with a lot of strange cultural phenomenon in the States. How do we use our liberty? How do we redeem the time? These are noteworthy considerations. But we are all in different places in our life and come from different backgrounds and life experiences. I think Trueman is seeking to meet people where they are at. I don’t expect my pastors to be saints, they may even have interests that seem out of character. But does this define them? Is it their preoccupation? What is their intent and their heart? What do they keep going back to and proclaim above and beyond all else? I don’t know, again, I’d need more specific examples. But I think we can be charitable, at least up till a point, and then we can start debating.... to see where our hearts really lie. If I’m so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman, maybe what I know to be righteous loses its purity cause it’s causing me to cast stones rather than joy in the righteousness of God. Again, we would need to get into the specifics. Which we may or may not want to get into ...
> 
> How is Trueman causing men to stumbling? How does it compare to the good he does?



I am hardly "so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman". Someone asked for people to give their opinion of Trueman; I gave mine. I haven't listened to him for a long time, I don't read his output, I rarely think of him unless he is brought up in discussion (as here). But it was a good thing I did give my opinion as every other response has been the usual uncritical adulation of a man whose contribution to Reformed theology, if it weren't so dangerous (because of his high profile), is mediocre and forgettable. Trueman is all schtick and no substance. People shouldn't waste their time with him.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> Oh, how much more for laymen by this logic!



Yeah. The Bible doesn't say anything about IVF fertilization, so ministers better not say anything because it would just be their opinion. Bible also doesn't say anything about CRISPR or cloning.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Trueman is all schtick and no substance.



Have you read his stuff on John Owen? It is probably the best thing in print


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 18, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Have you read his stuff on John Owen? It is probably the best thing in print



Better even than John Owen?


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## ZackF (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> I am hardly "so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman". Someone asked for people to give their opinion of Trueman; I gave mine. I haven't listened to him for a long time, I don't read his output, I rarely think of him unless he is brought up in discussion (as here). But it was a good thing I did give my opinion as every other response has been the usual uncritical adulation of a man whose contribution to Reformed theology, if it weren't so dangerous (because of his high profile), is mediocre and forgettable. Trueman is all schtick and no substance. People shouldn't waste their time with him.


Do you have any author recommendations on the subjects Truman is addressing? You mentioned better sources on a previous post.

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## A.Joseph (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> I am hardly "so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman". Someone asked for people to give their opinion of Trueman; I gave mine. I haven't listened to him for a long time, I don't read his output, I rarely think of him unless he is brought up in discussion (as here). But it was a good thing I did give my opinion as every other response has been the usual uncritical adulation of a man whose contribution to Reformed theology, if it weren't so dangerous (because of his high profile), is mediocre and forgettable. Trueman is all schtick and no substance. People shouldn't waste their time with him.


Ok, I respect that. Let’s make this easy cause I do respect your view. Name some contemporary replacement options for Trueman and we can leave this on a positive note

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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Better even than John Owen?


Presuming that since Owen didn't write books analyzing Owen's theology, I don't think the comparison holds. My comment was not that Trueman is the greatest theologian writing today. Far from it. Not even close. My point is that he is the best authority on John Owen's writings today.

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## StephenMartyr (Nov 22, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Any good in him can be found elsewhere. There's a lot to worry about. He has a reputation as a conservative Reformed guy but this is not earned. He is certainly within the broad Reformed camp, but middle of the road. On any controversial issue within Reformed circles- worship, xmas, halloween for example- I've never heard him take the minority position (i.e. the older Reformed view). He sets himself up as a cantankerous critic of modernity, but he has embraced every innovation within the Reformed camp. And he bears a lot of the responsibility for elevating Aimee Byrd to prominence. I'd stay clear.


Thanks for your words. I haven't bought the book yet. I'll re-think my purchase. I have enough to read at the moment, as well having Nancy Pearcy's book Saving Leonardo which seems to be talking about the same subject. I'll read that first.


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## StephenMartyr (Nov 22, 2020)

I wrote prematurely not seeing there was a second page. I won't name names or point fingers but seeing how this page is going I feel kind of bad and I would like to address something.

There's a company that makes chocolate bars. I wouldn't normally like talking about this (but I did before a long time ago when I had chocolate as a hobby. Yes there is a chocolate hobby and a forum or two to go along with it!) because it might sound like I'm snotty and boastful. But I want to use this as a picture.

I won't talk about names from the thread here and I won't say who the company of these bars is (it's not important). But they make very expense bars. The more expensive being around $18-24 a bar. Something like that. They are very good.

As time goes on and you find companies like this one and try their bars you get hooked on real chocolate and enjoy learning how they make it. You get into a..."higher" taste and find you don't like anything less because your tastes go up. You find what you liked before is nothing in comparison.

Well the same is true I think for writers. I think there is a danger to our hearts when we set people up. I've read Owen and also like a lot of others. I really enjoy Machen. But there are Christian writers who may not write as good or as deep as those people. 

We have to guard our hearts to being so "high tasted" that no one else can come close. Are we able to enjoy a talk with a new Christian? Can we read a blog from a young adult and rejoice with him? Can we give a child a high 5 when they quote a verse? 

I really don't want to point the finger here because I MYSELF can act like that! Machen is SOOOOO good! I can't stomach anyone with lesser degrees! The way they talk is so watery.

There is fine chocolate but can we find something good in the little shop down the road who's trying their hardest and what they make might make you wince? 

By the way I'm not advocating heresy or deliberate or natural bowls of whip cream (Osteen).

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## arapahoepark (Nov 22, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> I wrote prematurely not seeing there was a second page. I won't name names or point fingers but seeing how this page is going I feel kind of bad and I would like to address something.
> 
> There's a company that makes chocolate bars. I wouldn't normally like talking about this (but I did before a long time ago when I had chocolate as a hobby. Yes there is a chocolate hobby and a forum or two to go along with it!) because it might sound like I'm snotty and boastful. But I want to use this as a picture.
> 
> ...


Nobody was worshipping the guy...even if one alleged it. All I am saying is that his book is eye opening from a historical point of view and his writing erudite.

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## ZackF (Nov 22, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> I wrote prematurely not seeing there was a second page. I won't name names or point fingers but seeing how this page is going I feel kind of bad and I would like to address something.
> 
> There's a company that makes chocolate bars. I wouldn't normally like talking about this (but I did before a long time ago when I had chocolate as a hobby. Yes there is a chocolate hobby and a forum or two to go along with it!) because it might sound like I'm snotty and boastful. But I want to use this as a picture.
> 
> ...


What I got from this is knowledge there are people dropping 20 bones for a candy bar. Now I’m really curious...

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## Charles Johnson (Nov 22, 2020)

ZackF said:


> What I got from this is knowledge there are people dropping 20 bones for a candy bar. Now I’m really curious...


I know, right? It's like no one told them they're supposed to spend their milk money on scotch and ipa's.


arapahoepark said:


> Nobody was worshipping the guy...even if one alleged it. All I am saying is that his book is eye opening from a historical point of view and his writing erudite.


Maybe I misunderstood but I think he's addressing those critical of Truman.


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## Pergamum (Nov 22, 2020)

Trueman reminds me of the Simon Cowell of the Reformed world. That is not a compliment.

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## Charles Johnson (Nov 22, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Trueman reminds me of the Simon Cowell of the Reformed world. That is not a compliment.


Good to see you're not getting soft


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## A.Joseph (Nov 22, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> I wrote prematurely not seeing there was a second page. I won't name names or point fingers but seeing how this page is going I feel kind of bad and I would like to address something.
> 
> There's a company that makes chocolate bars. I wouldn't normally like talking about this (but I did before a long time ago when I had chocolate as a hobby. Yes there is a chocolate hobby and a forum or two to go along with it!) because it might sound like I'm snotty and boastful. But I want to use this as a picture.
> 
> ...


If you wanna go real lowbrow, there’s P&P.


https://pulpitandpen.org/2020/10/26/jeff-dornik-is-stupid-and-im-a-tad-stupid-for-responding-to-him/



What’s Driscoll up to these days?


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## BottleOfTears (Nov 22, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> as every other response has been the usual uncritical adulation of a man whose contribution to Reformed theology, if it weren't so dangerous (because of his high profile), is mediocre and forgettable.


Every other response? I'm not sure that's entirely fair here brother. You don't think anyone else here has read Carl Trueman critically? Frankly, I think your criticism of Dr Trueman is far too harsh, I mean dangerous? Really? And how can you claim that everyone else here is not only incorrect but has been completely uncritical in reading, when you admit yourself that you haven't read any of his work?



StephenMartyr said:


> I haven't bought the book yet. I'll re-think my purchase.


I would strongly advise against deciding your purchases on the testimony of someone who is so obviously bias and who apparently has not read a single one of the author in question's books. If you really want to know what the book is about, Dr Trueman gave a lecture series recently at Grove which covers the same topic. The interviews linked above are also helpful.

Reactions: Like 5


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## A.Joseph (Nov 22, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> I am hardly "so busy seeking to condemn men like Trueman". Someone asked for people to give their opinion of Trueman; I gave mine. I haven't listened to him for a long time, I don't read his output, I rarely think of him unless he is brought up in discussion (as here). But it was a good thing I did give my opinion as every other response has been the usual uncritical adulation of a man whose contribution to Reformed theology, if it weren't so dangerous (because of his high profile), is mediocre and forgettable. Trueman is all schtick and no substance. People shouldn't waste their time with him.


Alex, to be fair, you’ve been critical of him before. Which is fine. I’m not saying you, in particular, are so busy seeking to condemn. But I think many of us have a tendency to do that very thing. I was just making a general statement on our natural tendency to do that. There is a place for that, but we have to be prepared to battle our opinion, while hopefully maintaining a measure of charity whenever possible.

Good stuff...


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## A.Joseph (Nov 24, 2020)

A good follow up for CT would be the potential traps and pitfalls that come when these concepts creep into the church and empower the gay celibate Christian or the female church leader/authority or the male narcissist/abuser of authority, etc. I’m assuming CT does not get into that.....? But at this point, that may be the more timely analysis. But any uncovering of cultural mores is always a good thing.


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## ZackF (Nov 24, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> A good follow up for CT would be the potential traps and pitfalls that come when these concepts creep into the church and empower the gay celibate Christian or the female church leader/authority or the male narcissist/abuser of authority, etc. I’m assuming CT does not get into that.....? But at this point, that may be the more timely analysis. But any uncovering of cultural mores is always a good thing.


I wonder if he’s fielding requests?


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## A.Joseph (Nov 24, 2020)

ZackF said:


> I wonder if he’s fielding requests?


Well, we can’t assume the church is well aligned on what is true and what is not. There have been various breakdowns in these areas. Again, I would think he would have included a chapter on such things. Maybe he did allude to them to some degree.


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## ZackF (Nov 24, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> Well, we can’t assume the church is well aligned on what is true and what is not. There have been various breakdowns in these areas. Again, I would think he would have included a chapter on such things. Maybe he did allude to them to some degree.


I could addressed at the essay level as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 25, 2020)

StephenMartyr said:


> I wrote prematurely not seeing there was a second page. I won't name names or point fingers but seeing how this page is going I feel kind of bad and I would like to address something.
> 
> There's a company that makes chocolate bars. I wouldn't normally like talking about this (but I did before a long time ago when I had chocolate as a hobby. Yes there is a chocolate hobby and a forum or two to go along with it!) because it might sound like I'm snotty and boastful. But I want to use this as a picture.
> 
> ...



When it comes to theology I think we have to have a higher standard than "trying their hardest". There is nothing contradictory about enjoying reading a work of deep theology which may involve complex discussion and also enjoying blog posts which one finds profitable. I don't think that's the issue here. The issue, as far as I'm concerned, is what is actually being said in whatever place one is reading it. As has been said already: Carl Trueman is not a stupid man. He is, academically, accomplished and can write literature which is aimed at those with a lot of prior knowledge, as well as writing popular level articles and blogs. My issue is what he says.

It's one thing to settle for a cheap and cheerful chocolate bar for 50p; it's quite another to settle for compromise because the writer talks about issues one might be interested in.


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## alexandermsmith (Nov 25, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> Oh, how much more for laymen by this logic!



Actually, no, how much more ministers. We are told in Scripture they will need to give account of all that they have taught in their position of authority.


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## A.Joseph (Nov 25, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> So I'm only allowed to criticise him once but anyone else can say how great he is over and over?


No, of course you can.


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