# Chris: On Baptism Of Rome Being A Valid Baptism



## Saiph (Jun 7, 2004)

You Asked:

[quote:4f7127cb26]
Out of curiosity, I want to understand your perspective, so here's a hypothetical situation: A man and wife don't believe in church, but think that it's up to each family to grow in God and raise their children to do the same. But they also happen to believe in paedobaptism, and so in the hospital the day the baby is born, the father sprinkles water on the baby, verbally proclaiming that he is baptizing that he is baptizing the baby in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Would you consider that baptism valid? 
[/quote:4f7127cb26]

As horrifying as that idea seems to me, I would have to say, yes.

Water, and the name of the Trinity are all that is necessary.

That is all I see in Scripture.

Even if the doctrine of the Trinity is false, the Triune God aknowledges the power of His own name in the sacrament.

One might say that &quot;Orthodox Faith&quot; on the part of the minister or parents is neccessary but I do not agree there either.

That is the root of Donatism.


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 7, 2004)

In John 1:33, John the Baptist speaks of &quot;he who sent me to baptize with water.&quot; Since God specifically gave John a calling to baptize, surely there is a need for such a calling in order to lawfully baptize, and thus it cannot be done by anyone who is not specifically called to baptize (since otherwise there would have been no need for God to call John to the task). On this I think you will probably agree.

But then you're probably thinking, &quot;Well, Christ [i:6465832a99]did[/i:6465832a99] give [i:6465832a99]all[/i:6465832a99] Christians the calling to baptize in Matthew 28:19 (ESV): &quot;Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.&quot; However, in light of the fact that God does nothing by accident, but has a purpose in all of His actions, what we must realize is that when Christ gave this command, He did not give it to a large crowd of people He was teaching. Rather, He only gave it to the apostles - and we know from elsewhere in the NT that the biblical extention in church leadership went from apostles to elders. It is this observation seen in light of this principle that convinces me that the WCF is correct in saying that baptism must be administered &quot;by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.&quot;

In Christ,


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 7, 2004)

We've discussed this issue before on this thread. You may want to check it out. 

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=1976


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## BrianLanier (Jun 7, 2004)

[quote:41ad609da4][i:41ad609da4]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:41ad609da4]
Even if the doctrine of the Trinity is false, the Triune God aknowledges the power of His own name in the sacrament.
[/quote:41ad609da4]

So would you consider a Mormon baptism as a valid CHRISTIAN baptism?


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 7, 2004)

Thanks, Patrick. That's a good thread. I'll be sending you a U2U shortly regarding your last post in it.


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## yeutter (Jun 7, 2004)

Mormon Baptism is not valid because it is not done with Trinitarian intent.


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## Saiph (Jun 8, 2004)

[quote:d0ed65f85b]
So would you consider a Mormon baptism as a valid CHRISTIAN baptism? 
[/quote:d0ed65f85b]

I have never seen a Mormon baptism performed. Do they use the name of the Trinity ? ?


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## pastorway (Jun 8, 2004)

Mormons baptize &quot;in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.&quot;

[quote:4d78ebf86f]The wording of the baptismal prayer used in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is prescribed in the earliest compilation of instructions for Church operations (D&amp;C 20). When an individual is baptized, the person with the proper priesthood authority goes down into the water with the candidate, raises his right arm to the square, calls the individual by the full legal name, and says, &quot;Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ,[b:4d78ebf86f] I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost[/b:4d78ebf86f]. Amen,&quot; and then immerses the candidate (D&amp;C 20:73).

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/organization/priesthood/ordinances/Baptismal_Prayer_EOM.htm

[/quote:4d78ebf86f]


It certainly is Trinitarian!!!

So is it a Christian baptism??? Are Mormons considered Christians??

Phillip


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## BrianLanier (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:8dc84e58d3][i:8dc84e58d3]Originally posted by yeutter[/i:8dc84e58d3]
Mormon Baptism is not valid because it is not done with Trinitarian intent. [/quote:8dc84e58d3]

I asked that question because Mark said:

[quote:8dc84e58d3]
[b:8dc84e58d3]Even if the doctrine of the Trinity is false[/b:8dc84e58d3], the Triune God aknowledges the power of His own name in the sacrament.
[/quote:8dc84e58d3]

Hope that helps!

[Edited on 6-9-2004 by BrianLanier]


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## BrianLanier (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:e66e2093f8][i:e66e2093f8]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:e66e2093f8]
Mormons baptize &quot;in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.&quot;

[quote:e66e2093f8]The wording of the baptismal prayer used in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is prescribed in the earliest compilation of instructions for Church operations (D&amp;C 20). When an individual is baptized, the person with the proper priesthood authority goes down into the water with the candidate, raises his right arm to the square, calls the individual by the full legal name, and says, &quot;Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ,[b:e66e2093f8] I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost[/b:e66e2093f8]. Amen,&quot; and then immerses the candidate (D&amp;C 20:73).

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/organization/priesthood/ordinances/Baptismal_Prayer_EOM.htm

[/quote:e66e2093f8]


It certainly is Trinitarian!!!

So is it a Christian baptism??? Are Mormons considered Christians??

Phillip [/quote:e66e2093f8]

Thank you Phillip for posting that! That was helpful! I am with you on this one!


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## dado6 (Jun 9, 2004)

Phillip

Mormons, Church of Christ, many Armstrongian groups, even the Moonies, all name the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in their baptismal rites. What was the recipient baptized into in these circumstances? It certainly was not the faith once delivered. 

Does this mean that Donatus was right? That is a tough one. Both he and his opponents (Constantine and Augustine primarily) viewed the Church as a monolithic body, and as such heretical teachers were still tending flocks within the Church proper. Now we have rival, independent organized bodies all claiming to be the true Church. It is no longer simply a matter of an errant teacher within the Church. 

I think the correct way to look at it is this: If we would not have fellowship with the group because they grossly pervert the gospel in one way or another, why would we honor their baptism?.

Thanks,
Rob


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