# Giving in Worship and WCF



## Romans922 (Oct 16, 2008)

I put this in worship because it seems to fit better here, as that is what the main topic is.

In the WCF in chapter 21, in the elements of worship it does not mention giving (Tithes/offering). Yet I at least believe it is Scriptural, 1 Cor. 16:1-2. I.e. practiced by the early church which is our model for worship. Anyone want to reconcile this and help my conscience by the Word?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 16, 2008)

I don't believe there is scriptural warrant for including tithes and offerings as an element within the public worship service (ie., "passing the plate"), although it is Lord's Day duty certainly. It is not listed as a worship service element in the original Westminster Standards (the DPW says, for example: "The collection for the poor is so to be ordered, that no part of the publick worship be thereby hindered"), and thus the perceived "oversight" was "remedied" in 1886 when the PCUSA added a whole chapter to its directory for public worship affirming that it is a specific element within the public worship service.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 16, 2008)

Additionally, the church of Scotland formally prohibited any collection for the poor during service in 1648. 
Collections and Observations ... - Google Book Search


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## KMK (Oct 16, 2008)

Are tithes and offerings then an element of private worship and if so what are the other elements of private worship and how are they regulated?


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## jaybird0827 (Oct 16, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> I don't believe there is scriptural warrant for including tithes and offerings as an element within the public worship service (ie., "passing the plate"), although it is Lord's Day duty certainly. It is not listed as a worship service element in the original Westminster Standards (the DPW says, for example: "The collection for the poor is so to be ordered, that no part of the publick worship be thereby hindered") ... .


 


The collection of tithes and gifts, and collections for the poor can be taken without passing the plate. It is done by providing a collection box on a stand at or near the entry to the room in which worship takes place.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 16, 2008)

jaybird0827 said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe there is scriptural warrant for including tithes and offerings as an element within the public worship service (ie., "passing the plate"), although it is Lord's Day duty certainly. It is not listed as a worship service element in the original Westminster Standards (the DPW says, for example: "The collection for the poor is so to be ordered, that no part of the publick worship be thereby hindered") ... .
> ...



Practically is there anyway to "take out" the offering from the order of service?


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## Romans922 (Oct 16, 2008)

Would anyone in the PCA want to tell me why most churches still practice this element if it is truly not a scriptural element?


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 16, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Would anyone in the PCA want to tell me why most churches still practice this element if it is truly not a scriptural element?



1. Because relatively few people know about, think about, or seek to practice the RPW.

2. There is a widespread, though not often stated, assumption that "that was then, this is now" or "We know better now."

3. There is the practical problem of not being a state church. Today it's not too difficult to figure out how to solve this problem (taking offerings) but prior to electronic transfers it was more challenging. 

4. People fear that if we don't "take the offering" the church finances will suffer.

5. Some argue, as at least one of my profs did, that giving in worship is a proper element because it is the NT counterpart to Mosaic/OT sacrificial offering. 

Here's an HB post on this topic: "Is the Offering a Circumstance or Element or Neither?"

Reactions: Like 1


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## MW (Oct 16, 2008)

The Puritans generally regarded the tithes/offerings as a part of the ceremonial law, but permitted tithes (not offerings) in an established church as a part of obedience to the civil law. Outside of an established church I doubt a case can be made for Christian giving as being a tithe. As there is no positive sanction in the NT, taking up a collection should have no place in public worship.


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## Romans922 (Oct 16, 2008)

So what do we do with the example of 1 Cor. 16:1-2?


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## MW (Oct 16, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> So what do we do with the example of 1 Cor. 16:1-2?



A box at the back of the hall allows for an individual to give incognito.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 16, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > So what do we do with the example of 1 Cor. 16:1-2?
> ...





Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> jaybird0827 said:
> 
> 
> > VirginiaHuguenot said:
> ...



As Jay and Rev. Winzer noted, that is how we do it, a box in the back with a note in the bulletin letting folks know where the offerings may be placed outside of the worship service.


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