# Is Pastor Douglas Wilson a Pastor?



## Enzo (Oct 5, 2021)

No, this thread ain´t really about wheter Wilson was duly ordained to the ministry.

Yet, while scrolling through my twittter feed yesterday, I saw some pretty heavy acusations against the guy.

Among other very serious stuff the Vice Magazine acused him and his community of doing, some reformed people (specially the "Truly Reformed") denied the fact of *Wilson's lawfull ordination.*

This left me thinking...

*"What if he was not ordained by laying on of hands of the session?"*

I'm not asking about this specific case, of course.

No one wants to hear about "Wilson Wars" here, I guess.

But I ask this about any minister of the gospel.

Should we deem some baptist ministers as _unordained_, given some of them have only the election of the people as "ordination"?

What about pentecostal ministers? Here in Brazil, sometimes they don't have even the voice of the people...

Suppose we say these baptist ministries are "doubtful"...

*Should we hear them preach? Or should we deem them as gifted brethren, with no public authority, and therefore deny to hear them preach?*


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## Pilgrim (Oct 5, 2021)

This is just an observation rather than an argument. But it seems to me that we generally refer to those in other denominations as pastors as a courtesy. I don't think that many confessional Presbyterian denominations would accept Baptist ordination if a Baptist preacher becomes a Presbyterian and is called by a congregation. My understanding is that generally he would have to go through the ordination process and be "reordained." I could be wrong, but that's the sense I've gotten through the years. And if so, is there any real sense that his Baptist ordination was valid, even if it was by laying on of hands of other Baptist elders?

Saying that you can't hear them preach at all is going too far, I think. I think that preaching by others in other denominations is profitable insofar as they are handling the Word of God accurately. Part of the problem with Wilson is false doctrine being taught under the banner of Reformed theology. 

For what it's worth, my understanding is that neither Lloyd-Jones nor Spurgeon were formally ordained.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SolaScriptura (Oct 5, 2021)

Ordination is fundamentally the public recognition and acknowledgment that (we believe) someone has been called by God to a position of public ministry, and the act thereof vests the person with the authority of that position.

In our camp this is done one way, in Baptists circles another way, in Lutheran circles a different way still, etc. We "re-ordain" someone if they come from a different body because coming into a new tradition they need to demonstrate that they actually believe what we we believe and are thus trustworthy of stewarding our faith.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## retroGRAD3 (Oct 5, 2021)

I certainly don't think vice decides if someone is ordained or not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 5, 2021)

I think the question with Wilson is no ordination. There's an old thread that discusses Wilson's dismissal of the need for an ordinary call, adducing Calvin/Knox/Spurgeon's extraordinary calls.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> Among other very serious stuff the Vice Magazine acused him and his community of doing, some reformed people (specially the "Truly Reformed") denied the fact of *Wilson's lawfull ordination.*



I am not a "Truly Reformed" person and I, too, deny his ordination. I think today you could make a technical argument that he has an ordination akin to a common law marriage. But no, he is not a real minister and his screed yesterday where he said people like me were lost because we criticized him has no weight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Turretin vs. Doug Wilson on Calling


I do not know if Wilson has since gotten a legitimate calling and ordination from an established church body. But he explains in his own words. (I thank Rachel Miller for finding this. I also rec…




tentsofshem.wordpress.com


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## ChristianLibertarian (Oct 5, 2021)

SolaScriptura said:


> Ordination is fundamentally the public recognition and acknowledgment that (we believe) someone has been called by God to a position of public ministry, and the act thereof vests the person with the authority of that position.
> 
> In our camp this is done one way, in Baptists circles another way, in Lutheran circles a different way still, etc. We "re-ordain" someone if they come from a different body because coming into a new tradition they need to demonstrate that they actually believe what we we believe and are thus trustworthy of stewarding our faith.


If a pastor must be "re-ordained" should ordinary members be re-baptized?


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## Irenaeus (Oct 5, 2021)

ChristianLibertarian said:


> If a pastor must be "re-ordained" should ordinary members be re-baptized?


Why would ordination and baptism be analogous? Baptism is a sacrament of initiation into the church catholic. Ordination is a rite of initiation into spiritual leadership in a particular branch of the church.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Enzo (Oct 5, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Turretin vs. Doug Wilson on Calling
> 
> 
> I do not know if Wilson has since gotten a legitimate calling and ordination from an established church body. But he explains in his own words. (I thank Rachel Miller for finding this. I also rec…
> ...


Thank you for this link, friend.

His instalment in the holy office was surely unlawfull, and also against our reformed religion.

But the fact of it's irregularity makes it also *invalid?*

Cause in this case, CREC elders shouldn't have recognized him, etc etc 

Wouldn't it be a more charitable ground, not only in this Wilsonian situation, but in others also, to deem baptists unlawfully yet validly ordained?


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## Enzo (Oct 5, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> I certainly don't think vice decides if someone is ordained or not.


Oh, I think everyone agrees with that.

The accusation, though, was bought by reformed folk after the article of Vice went public.

But let's be honest: weren't for Wilson's controversial views, no one in the ordinary Reformed world would be contending he is no minister because he had not the laying on of hands...

I don't remember anyone criticizing Ligonier for allowing a layman to preach, as Wilson preached at their conferences.

But that would be another topic...


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## Enzo (Oct 5, 2021)

SolaScriptura said:


> Ordination is fundamentally the public recognition and acknowledgment that (we believe) someone has been called by God to a position of public ministry, and the act thereof vests the person with the authority of that position.
> 
> In our camp this is done one way, in Baptists circles another way, in Lutheran circles a different way still, etc. We "re-ordain" someone if they come from a different body because coming into a new tradition they need to demonstrate that they actually believe what we we believe and are thus trustworthy of stewarding our faith.


That's complicated...

I mean, I have no doubts that Lutheran ministers are really pastors of the church universal. By that, I mean that re-ordaining them would be sinful.

The same would go for those who received episcopal ordination. 

The pattern of ordination by ministers is kept in those groups in some degree.

But some baptists ordain by popular vote.

That's just not a lawfull way to ordain a pastor...

But, if that means that they ain't ministers of Christ, should we then rebaptize those baptized by them? (Oh, the irony of destiny. Reformed people rebaptizing baptists)

Should we just ignore their churches and call them irregular assemblies?

It's really hard to figure that one out.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> But the fact of it's irregularity makes it also *invalid?*
> 
> Cause in this case, CREC elders shouldn't have recognized him, etc etc



Regarding validity, I really don't know. The point to the Turretin link was that if there were no other gospel churches in the area, then one would be authorized in starting one. Of course, there probably were gospel churches in the area, so that's a problem for Wilson.

Other CREC ministers shouldn't have recognized him, but largely for other reasons.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> The accusation, though, was bought by reformed folk after the article of Vice went public.



Almost everything in the Vice article was old news for most of us: the pedophile issues, the statutory rape issues, etc. All Vice did was finally get arond to exposing him.

Reactions: Like 3


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> irregular assemblies



Historically, I think that is what most Reformed have done. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but that's been the position.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> I don't remember anyone criticizing Ligonier for allowing a layman to preach, as Wilson preached at their conferences.
> 
> But that would be another topic...



Ligonier has done some "odd" things in the past (most of which were related to Sproul Jr). They've been called out on it, but Ligonier is also a parachurch organization, so it is kind of different.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JH (Oct 5, 2021)

@BayouHuguenot dang son nice 4 post combo

Reactions: Funny 2


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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2021)

Jerrod Hess said:


> @BayouHuguenot dang son nice 4 post combo



My chromebook makes it hard for me to quote all at once


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## VictorBravo (Oct 5, 2021)

Enzo said:


> to deem baptists unlawfully yet validly ordained?


I assume you mean unlawful according to the Westminster Confession of Faith?

I can assure you that those elders who hold to the 1689 LBCF wince at least a little (even if used to it) at being considered "unlawful" if ordained according to their confession.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JM (Oct 5, 2021)

Vice is jumping on the popularity of the Mars Hills podcast. Nuff said. It's Vice...not a real publication.


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## B.L. (Oct 6, 2021)

Enzo said:


> This left me thinking...
> 
> *"What if he was not ordained by laying on of hands of the session?"*
> 
> ...





Enzo said:


> His instalment in the holy office was surely unlawfull, and also against our reformed religion.
> 
> But the fact of it's irregularity makes it also *invalid?*
> 
> ...





Enzo said:


> But some baptists ordain by popular vote.
> 
> That's just not a lawfull way to ordain a pastor...
> 
> ...



I know very little about the controversy surrounding Wilson and personally don't have the time or desire to do all the background research. Incidentally, I did purchase two books of his last week - _Federal Husband_ and _Empires of Dirt: Secularism, Radical Islam, and the Mere Christendom Alternative - _and find some of his critiques about contemporary culture helpful. However, at the end of the day I really don't care about whether or not he is a 'real' pastor in the CREC.

I've grown increasingly fatigued by all the sectarian tribalism that exists among the various branches of Christianity. I understand why it exists and don't deny there are important debates to be had over important doctrinal issues, but much of the discussions broadly speaking are exhausting and seem counterproductive and harmful to the unity of the Church. I have no answers...in my mind the ecumenical task is a bit of a gordian knot to figure out.

Every association, denomination, movement, church leader, etc. is going to be considered 'irregular' or 'invalid' by someone. I've pretty much given up on figuring out what to do about it. Until the second advent things are and will continue to be rather messy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Irenaeus (Oct 6, 2021)

DW's latest post does have one point that I think is worth addressing. Some people refuse to engage with him at all, even where he makes valid points, because of his theological aberrations. Is it valid, then, for Christians to side with a heathen God-hating scandal-rag such as Vice in this situation?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 6, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> DW's latest post does have one point that I think is worth addressing. Some people refuse to engage with him at all, even where he makes valid points, because of his theological aberrations. Is it valid, then, for Christians to side with a heathen God-hating scandal-rag such as Vice in this situation?



I've been engaging with Wilson since 2003. The Vice article had little new information. We were saying the same thing in 2015. His own presbytery called him a cult leader in 2003 (this was before he became Pope of the CREC).

To my shame, as @Romans922 can attest, I promoted his material for a long time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 6, 2021)

I honestly never think about Wilson until someone brings him up here or on Facebook or on the rare occasion now at church. The last week has been hard to avoid him. I don't know what Baptist ordination looks like. I saw one picture of a recent one and unless you knew otherwise, it looked like the ordination of a TE or RE in a Presbyterian church; several guys laying on hands. So, this isn't about Baptist ordination in this case I don't think, but self ordination or no ordination as I said above. If you have not seen it, this Facebook page is enlightening (it is "liked" which means endorsed by folks you'd recognize their names here as members or former members). https://www.facebook.com/ExaminingMoscow/. 


VictorBravo said:


> I assume you mean unlawful according to the Westminster Confession of Faith?
> 
> I can assure you that those elders who hold to the 1689 LBCF wince at least a little (even if used to it) at being considered "unlawful" if ordained according to their confession.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Romans922 (Oct 6, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've been engaging with Wilson since 2003. The Vice article had little new information. We were saying the same thing in 2015. His own presbytery called him a cult leader in 2003 (this was before he became Pope of the CREC).
> 
> To my shame, as @Romans922 can attest, I promoted his material for a long time.


I attest. 

He should be marked out and avoided as the scriptures say.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Irenaeus (Oct 6, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've been engaging with Wilson since 2003. The Vice article had little new information. We were saying the same thing in 2015. His own presbytery called him a cult leader in 2003 (this was before he became Pope of the CREC).
> 
> To my shame, as @Romans922 can attest, I promoted his material for a long time.


What changed your mind?


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## Irenaeus (Oct 6, 2021)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I honestly never think about Wilson until someone brings him up here or on Facebook or on the rare occasion now at church. The last week has been hard to avoid him. I don't know what Baptist ordination looks like. I saw one picture of a recent one and unless you knew otherwise, it looked like the ordination of a TE or RE in a Presbyterian church; several guys laying on hands. So, this isn't about Baptist ordination in this case I don't think, but self ordination or no ordination as I said above. If you have not seen it, this Facebook page is enlightening (it is "liked" which means endorsed by folks you'd recognize their names here as members or former members). https://www.facebook.com/ExaminingMoscow/.


Thanks for this. Not on fb myself these days but I can borrow a friend's computer for a few and will check it out.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 6, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> What changed your mind?



I got a better understanding of Reformed theology and worked through the problems of the Federal Vision. And then there were the abuse scandals that came to light around 2015.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 6, 2021)

Pilgrim said:


> This is just an observation rather than an argument. But it seems to me that we generally refer to those in other denominations as pastors as a courtesy. I don't think that many confessional Presbyterian denominations would accept Baptist ordination if a Baptist preacher becomes a Presbyterian and is called by a congregation. My understanding is that generally he would have to go through the ordination process and be "reordained." I could be wrong, but that's the sense I've gotten through the years. And if so, is there any real sense that his Baptist ordination was valid, even if it was by laying on of hands of other Baptist elders?
> 
> Saying that you can't hear them preach at all is going too far, I think. I think that preaching by others in other denominations is profitable insofar as they are handling the Word of God accurately. Part of the problem with Wilson is false doctrine being taught under the banner of Reformed theology.
> 
> For what it's worth, my understanding is that neither Lloyd-Jones nor Spurgeon were formally ordained.


The PCA, in BCO 13-6 transfers ministers from denominations outside its denominational boundaries including, in some cases, Baptists. 

13-6. Ministers seeking admission to a Presbytery from other Presbyteries
in the Presbyterian Church in America shall be examined on Christian
experience, and also touching their views in theology, the Sacraments, and
church government. If applicants come from other denominations, the
Presbytery shall examine them thoroughly in knowledge and views as required
by BCO 21-4 and require them to answer in the affirmative the questions put
to candidates at their ordination. Ordained ministers from other denominations
being considered by Presbyteries for reception may come under the
extraordinary provisions set forth in BCO 21-4. Presbyteries shall also require
*ordained ministers coming from other denominations *to state the specific
instances in which they may differ with the Confession of Faith and
Catechisms in any of their statements and/or propositions, which differences
the court shall judge in accordance with BCO 21-4 (see BCO 21-4.e,f).


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## Irenaeus (Oct 6, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I got a better understanding of Reformed theology and worked through the problems of the Federal Vision. And then there were the abuse scandals that came to light around 2015.


So you haven't always been Reformed? What led to your salvation?

Joking, of course, but if there is a blog post or thread that sheds some light on your journey I'd be glad to read it.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 6, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> So you haven't always been Reformed? What led to your salvation?
> 
> Joking, of course, but if there is a blog post or thread that sheds some light on your journey I'd be glad to read it.



I live in Monroe, so the first Presbyterian church I came in contact with was Auburn Avenue. I think I have some blog posts on it.


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