# The Lord's prayer and His will....



## earl40 (Dec 2, 2011)

"Thy will be done"

Decretive or prescriptive?


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## Weston Stoler (Dec 2, 2011)

prescriptive. I am no sure why he would pray "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" if all his will is done.


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## earl40 (Dec 2, 2011)

Weston Stoler said:


> prescriptive. I am no sure why he would pray "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" if all his will is done.




Could the part in question be a declaration of Who The Father is vs. a petition? In other words, the prayer is saying His will in heaven is done as well His will on earth and the petitions start with "Give us this day".


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## BobVigneault (Dec 2, 2011)

The emphasis of the phrase to not so much on God's will but on our profession and acknowledgment that his will is done, that no plan of his can be thwarted. All prayer must begin with the acknowledgment that God's will supercedes everything and that even our unction to pray is both the decretive and prescriptive will of God. The phrase directs to begin with the foundation that God is sovereign.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 2, 2011)

"Decretive" or "prescriptive" aren't helpful choices.

There are six *petitions* (imperative in form) to the Lord's Prayer. The second, "Thy will be done," we might paraphrase as "Our ardent desire is that your will _shall be_ accomplished." These are "pleas," from inferiors to the Superior.

The first three petitions use the "third-person" imperative, that is the "command" is indirect, often rendered "Let it..." or "Let them..." English doesn't have a strict third (or first) person imperative mood. So we use a term like "let," with the difficulty remaining: how to avoid our words sounding like a wish to _permit._


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## J. Dean (Dec 2, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> The emphasis of the phrase to not so much on God's will but on our profession and acknowledgment that his will is done, that no plan of his can be thwarted. All prayer must begin with the acknowledgment that God's will supercedes everything and that even our unction to pray is both the decretive and prescriptive will of God. The phrase directs to begin with the foundation that God is sovereign.



Reminds me of C.S. Lewis' line in SHADOWLANDS: Prayer doesn't change God; it changes me.


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## earl40 (Dec 2, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> The emphasis of the phrase to not so much on God's will but on our profession and acknowledgment that his will is done, that no plan of his can be thwarted. All prayer must begin with the acknowledgment that God's will supercedes everything and that even our unction to pray is both the decretive and prescriptive will of God. The phrase directs to begin with the foundation that God is sovereign.




So would you say it is decretive? Or is that not "helpful".

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------




J. Dean said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > The emphasis of the phrase to not so much on God's will but on our profession and acknowledgment that his will is done, that no plan of his can be thwarted. All prayer must begin with the acknowledgment that God's will supercedes everything and that even our unction to pray is both the decretive and prescriptive will of God. The phrase directs to begin with the foundation that God is sovereign.
> ...



Me also. For when I remember His will is done on earth and heaven I rest knowing even when I "plead" His will will work out for His glory and my good.....even when I currently do not like what the heck is going on.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 2, 2011)

Pastor Buchanan is one of the great thinkers here on the board and we are so blessed to have access to his shepherd's heart and wisdom. I agree with him that the terms are not helpful here, it's an unecessary distinction. If you want a qualifier then I would call it his sovereign will for that encompasses both his secret and revealed will.

"So would you say it is decretive? Or is that not "helpful"."


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## NB3K (Dec 2, 2011)

The word "done" in the Greek is an imperative. Jesus is commanding His sheep to pray in a manner to command the Father to have His will be done.

I will say it is God's decretive will.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 2, 2011)

If the original question is simply asking whether we are pleading for God's _prescriptive_ will to be done, or his _descriptive_ will to be done, Bob's point--that a "wholistic" conception of God's will is in view--this is most probably true.

On the other hand, I took the question (terse as it was), to be asking if the *petition itself* was a "descriptive" or "prescriptive" expression. The petitions as pleas to God don't describe or prescribe the present conditions or the future answer.


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## earl40 (Dec 2, 2011)

Contra_Mundum said:


> If the original question is simply asking whether we are pleading for God's _prescriptive_ will to be done, or his _descriptive_ will to be done, Bob's point--that a "wholistic" conception of God's will is in view--this is most probably true.
> 
> On the other hand, I took the question (terse as it was), to be asking if the *petition itself* was a "descriptive" or "prescriptive" expression. The petitions as pleas to God don't describe or prescribe the present conditions or the future answer.



So it is basicly a petition and not a declaration like when Mary said "may it be done to me according to your word.”?

Thank you for the imput.


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## seajayrice (Dec 2, 2011)

Q. 192. What do we pray for in the third petition?
A. In the third petition, (which is, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,1235) acknowledging, that by nature we and all men are not only utterly unable and unwilling to know and do the will of God,1236 but prone to rebel against his Word,1237 to repine and murmur against his providence,1238 and wholly inclined to do the will of the flesh, and of the devil:1239 we pray, that God would by his Spirit take away from ourselves and others all blindness,1240 weakness,1241 indisposedness,1242 and perverseness of heart;1243 and by his grace make us able and willing to know, do, and submit to his will in all things,1244 with the like humility,1245 cheerfulness,1246 faithfulness,1247 diligence,1248 zeal,1249 sincerity,1250 and constancy,1251 as the angels do in heaven.1252


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## earl40 (Dec 3, 2011)

,,


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## earl40 (Dec 4, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> Q. 192. What do we pray for in the third petition?
> A. In the third petition, (which is, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,1235) acknowledging, that by nature we and all men are not only utterly unable and unwilling to know and do the will of God,1236 but prone to rebel against his Word,1237 to repine and murmur against his providence,1238 and wholly inclined to do the will of the flesh, and of the devil:1239 we pray, that God would by his Spirit take away from ourselves and others all blindness,1240 weakness,1241 indisposedness,1242 and perverseness of heart;1243 and by his grace make us able and willing to know, do, and submit to his will in all things,1244 with the like humility,1245 cheerfulness,1246 faithfulness,1247 diligence,1248 zeal,1249 sincerity,1250 and constancy,1251 as the angels do in heaven.1252



Thank you very much. The above seems to say we are asking God to conform us to His prescriptive will "but prone to rebel against his Word" and His decretive will "to repine and murmur against his providence".

What was tripping me up is that if you look at "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" as a petition to God to change His will then you have all kinds of problems with His immutability. Of course we are asking God to change our will to His prescriptive will knowing that many times His providence or decretive will brings in much suffering. So this part of The Lord's prayer can be seen as both a petition and declaration.


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## py3ak (Dec 4, 2011)

I think it would mainly include two things. 
When we ask God to carry out His will, we are asking that His purposes be accomplished. In that sense we are joining our wills to His. The fact that His will certainly stands is no reason not to ask for it - what could you be more assured of? Pleading with God to fulfil His promises is no exercise in futility: it is the essence of believing prayer.
And when we ask God that His will be done in earth as it is in heaven, we are asking that we and others would obey him as the angels do - promptly, wholeheartedly, cheerfully, as the WLC explains.
In a summary of prayer as brief as the Lord's prayer, you have to expect the expressions to be rather pregnant.


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## earl40 (Dec 4, 2011)

Thank you....Bruce, Weston, Bob, J.Dean, Jason, Cj, and Ruben. You all have been a great help.


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## August (Dec 6, 2011)

Thank you from my side as well. So how do Arminians pray this in good faith?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 6, 2011)

August said:


> Thank you from my side as well. So how do Arminians pray this in good faith?




Because God ordains them to do so, how can they not?


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## earl40 (Dec 7, 2011)

BobVigneault said:


> August said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you from my side as well. So how do Arminians pray this in good faith?
> ...



I know they don't believe it is His will that bad passes or that sin is subservient to His will. This I know for a fact. Try asking if God wanted Adam to sin. Even most of the "reformed" I know will say that God has no desire for sin to happen. Piper poison that has been solidly implanted within the reformed community.


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