# Heidelberg catechism in Presbyterian churches



## Calvinbeza (Oct 7, 2015)

Why use many Presbyterian churches the Heidelberg Catechism alongside with Westminster Confession? Many PCA churches use Heidelberg Catechism. WCF is not enough?Heidelberg catechism was created to come closer to the Lutherans theologically. Rather Three Forms of Unity.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 7, 2015)

Can you provide some pointers to the "many PCA churches" that use the HC as their formal confessional basis?


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## Gforce9 (Oct 7, 2015)

I'm not a spokesman for the OPC. The Heidelberg, however, is rich and pastoral. Q&A #1 has more good theology and is more a comfort (!) than most of the entirety of non-Reformed, pop-evangelical preaching today. That's a good reason! 
Where there are departures from Presbyterian and Covenantal teaching in any material, one cherishes the good and discards the bad........


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## Edward (Oct 7, 2015)

He may be referring to the use in corporate worship. Although we subscribe to Westminster, we've used selections from the Heidelberg Catechism (on several occasions Q&A 1); last Sunday we used a couple of paragraphs from a modernized rendering of the Canons of Dort. 

This seems well within the non-binding article of the PCA's Directory for Worship:

55-1
It is proper for the congregation of
God’s people publicly to confess 
their faith, using creeds or confessions that
are true to the Word, such as, the 
Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the 
Westminster Standards
.


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## Jake (Oct 7, 2015)

Not sure if this is what you're asking, but there are several denominations that use both the Three Forms of Unity and the Westminster Standards in their confessional standards. I imagine each that does it has different reasons. Two I know of off the top of my head are the Heritage Reformed Congregations and the Reformed Churches of New Zealand. 

I think there is value for using the HC in places where it expresses things well. While we do not recite it, nor any other creeds, in our worship, our pastor has quoted from the HC when it helps to make something clear in the midst of preaching.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 7, 2015)

I think there are several Dutch Reformed pastors in the PCA that use Heidelberg catechism, former RCA churches, etc


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## Jack K (Oct 7, 2015)

The use of Reformed confessions is rare enough as it is, and the world would benefit greatly if more churches made frequent use of the Heidelberg Catechism. When it happens, it's hardly something to complain about.

I was part of a PCA church that sometimes used the Heidelberg Catechism in worship. Why use that when we could use the Westminster? Because the Heidelberg is warmer and more like a stirring sermon, while the Westminster seems more concerned with theological prescision and inclusion. Just reading the two, one can tell that the Westminster was the work of a committee.

In all PCA churches, the Westminster Standards are the official confessional documents. They serve that purpose (and other purposes) well. But it's also allowable to use other good documents for other purposes. When this happens using the Heidelberg, I doubt it has much to do with doctrinal concerns. I don't know any Presbyterian pastors who try to replace Westminster documents with the Heidelberg in an attempt to be "more Lutheran," as you suggest. Rather, they use the Heidelberg because they believe it speaks well to the hearts of people in their congregations. They are thinking like pastors, not academics.


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## timfost (Oct 7, 2015)

I know that my denomination had historically used the Heidelberg because we were formerly German Reformed. Often times language would determine the creeds to which a denomination subscribed.

I teach the youth of our church exclusively through the Heidelberg. RCUS covenant children are required to memorize it. Though they are also required to subscribe to the 3FU, they are only required to memorize the Heidelberg.

Along with Jack, I am constantly amazed at how do much good theology is packed into such a devotional "warm" document. Even the WSC comes across academically in comparison.

I am curious why some in this thread are making connections to Lutherans? Also, where has it departed from covenantal teachings? Just because federalism and CT was not as fully developed doesn't mean that it is denied, does it?


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 8, 2015)

> I know that my denomination had historically used the Heidelberg because we were formerly German Reformed. Often times language would determine the creeds to which a denomination subscribed.


Tim your denomination the RCUS has its roots in the continental Europe and affirms the TFU, not the WCF.


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## timfost (Oct 8, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Tim your denomination the RCUS has its roots in the continental Europe and affirms the TFU, not the WCF.



Yes, I understand. However, we frequent the Westminster. Why shouldn't other churches frequent the Heidelberg?


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 8, 2015)

> Why shouldn't other churches frequent the Heidelberg?



that is why I started this


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## yeutter (Oct 8, 2015)

I recently distributed copies of the Nepali language translation of the Heidelberg to local congregations in that have a ministry to Nepalese refugees. The Free Methodists warmly received it because they thought it would be a useful teaching tool, especially in its teaching concerning the sacraments.


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## yeutter (Oct 8, 2015)

timfost said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > Tim your denomination the RCUS has its roots in the continental Europe and affirms the TFU, not the WCF.
> ...


In the not too distant past the Eureka Classis, Reformed Church United States held the Heidelberg as its sole doctrinal standard. They only recently adopted the Belgic and Canons of Dordt


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## yeutter (Oct 8, 2015)

timfost said:


> I am curious why some in this thread are making connections to Lutherans? Also, where has it departed from covenantal teachings? Just because federalism and CT was not as fully developed doesn't mean that it is denied, does it?


The Heidelberg Catechism was originally written to show that those who are Reformed held to doctrines fully compatible with the 1540 revision of the Augsburg Confession. It does not directly confront Lutheran teaching the way it does the teaching of Anabaptists and Roman Catholics. Even when question 80 was added, it specifically held up the Reformed understanding of the Lord's Supper over against the Roman Catholic understanding of the Mass. The Lutheran doctrine of the Mass was not directly confronted.


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## Justified (Oct 8, 2015)

We've used the Heidelberg Catechism before in corporate worship. I'd prefer that the congregation not be compelled to use _any_ man-made confession in corporate worship. They should only have to respond with God's word. But I guess that's a different matter.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 8, 2015)

> In the not too distant past the Eureka Classis, Reformed Church United States held the Heidelberg as its sole doctrinal standard. They only recently adopted the Belgic and Canons of Dordt



I didn't know that.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 8, 2015)

How do you know that you are Anglican?


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## yeutter (Oct 8, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> How do you know that you are Anglican?



The Eureka Classis has printed a lengthy history of their history on their website. Included, if you read far enough down is their history of their adoption of the Belgic and Canons of Dordt. 

www.rcus.org/rcus-since1934/

The translation of the Heidelberg used by the RCUS is from the German, not the Latin, and is better then the ones used by our Dutch Reformed friends. 

I recently asked Sharak Tamang, the indigenous pastor we are sponsoring in Nepal, to translate the Heidelberg into Nepali. He did not have a good command of either Latin or Deutsch. He used the Hindi translation and the RCUS English language translation to complete his Nepali translation.


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## timfost (Oct 8, 2015)

yeutter said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> > I am curious why some in this thread are making connections to Lutherans? Also, where has it departed from covenantal teachings? Just because federalism and CT was not as fully developed doesn't mean that it is denied, does it?
> ...



Question 80 certainly comes strongly against Catholic Mass and transubstantiation. However, question 78's design was in part to differentiate the reformed position against consubstantiation.



> 78. Do, then, the bread and the wine become the real body and blood of Christ? No, but as the water in Baptism is not changed into the blood of Christ, nor becomes the washing away of sins itself, *being only the divine token and assurance thereof, so also in the Lord’s Supper the sacred bread does not become the body of Christ itself*, though agreeably to the nature and usage of sacraments it is called the body of Christ.



Ursinus confirms in his commentary that the design of this question and answer opposes both trans/consubstantiation:



> The Catechism, in the answer to this Question, rejects the doctrine of transubstantiation advocated by the Papists, *and also the doctrine of con-substantiation defended by the Ubiquitarians and others*, and explains the language which is here used together with the true sense of the words of Christ, This is my body.



Ursinus actually includes some harsh words against the Lutheran doctrine:



> For instead of the absurd miracle of the Papists, in regard to the subsistence of the accidents of the bread and wine, independent of any subject, they [the Lutherans] *imagine another still more absurd, viz: the penetration of two bodies; so that they may be said to have wandered farther than the Papists themselves from the words of Christ*...



I think we can derive from this that the Heidelberg, at least on the subject of the supper, addresses both the Catholic and Lutheran errors.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 9, 2015)

> The Eureka Classis has printed a lengthy history of their history on their website. Included, if you read far enough down is their history of their adoption of the Belgic and Canons of Dordt.
> 
> www.rcus.org/rcus-since1934/



Thanks It is a really really complete history with many details, a novel.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 9, 2015)

Friends 

I noticed that in the USA and North America the Reformed denominations do not use the second Helvetic confession. Why? It has a clearly strong Reformed emphasis. Presbyterian s nor Dutch Reformed churches abandon it. Why?


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## Jake (Oct 9, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Friends
> 
> I noticed that in the USA and North America the Reformed denominations do not use the second Helvetic confession. Why? It has a clearly strong Reformed emphasis. Presbyterian s nor Dutch Reformed churches abandon it. Why?



The Calvin Synod of the UCC uses the 2nd Helvetic Confession alongside the Heidelberg Catechism: http://calvinsynod.org/faith/reformed-church/doctrine/


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 9, 2015)

> The Calvin Synod of the UCC uses the 2nd Helvetic Confession alongside the Heidelberg Catechism



It has Hungarian heritage and the Hungarian Reformed church use the Second Helvetic Confession and HEidelberg catechism. except of this no other Presbyterian and Reformed church. (PC(USA) Book of Confessions contains it but I know PC(USA) churhces never use it.)


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 10, 2015)

Do you know others?


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 11, 2015)

No?


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## yeutter (Oct 11, 2015)

I think the Hungarian Churches are the only example in North America of a Church that uses the Heidelberg and the Second Helvetic Confession.


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## Calvinbeza (Oct 11, 2015)

> I think the Hungarian Churches are the only example in North America of a Church that uses the Heidelberg and the Second Helvetic Confession.



I agree


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