# Tipping



## Montanablue (Apr 24, 2010)

How much do you tip?

My sister went on a trip to Chicago this weekend with some friends. They went out to eat and she was the only one who tipped - the others just gave exact change. (The service was excellent, and the server was friendly she said). She ended up leaving a lot of extra money, because she felt so bad, but it still didn't cover the cost of what even a 10% tip would have been for all their meals. 

I usually tip 20% for good service (which I realize is a little high, especially where I live, but I have friends who paid their way through school waiting tables, so I like to give more). The least I'll tip is 10% and the service has to be pretty bad for that to happen. I've only not tipped once (actually I left a penny) and it was because our server was used a racial slur towards someone at our table!

Needless to say, I was pretty appalled when she told me what happened. So now I'm curious about how much people consider normal to tip.


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## jwithnell (Apr 24, 2010)

It kind of depends on the situation (assuming food service is the question here). A dollar is my minimum, even if I just get a cup of coffee or something small in a sit-down place. I view tipping as a way of helping people who are trying hard to make a living, but probably aren't making much.


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## reformedminister (Apr 24, 2010)

I used to wait on tables when I was in college. You would be surprised the number of people who are "bad tippers", especially Christians. I used to hear other waiters and waitresses who were unbelievers go on how Christians were bad tippers, especially the after church crowd. This is a shame and a bad witness. It is common knowledge that when you go to a restaurant and have someone wait on you that you need to leave a tip. When I used to wait on tables, my employers paid us like half of minimum wage because we got tips. This was across the board twenty years ago. From my understanding 15% is the amount expected for tipping. It is less than that if you go to a place like a buffet and you don't have a full service server. I always leave 20% for good service, and maybe only 10% if I have really bad service.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

15% ordinarily (usually rounded up to the dollar, though). I'll leave more for really good service, less for really bad service (e.g. verbally insulting the customer). I was once given the advice that as a college student, I should tip really high the first time I go somewhere. Teens and college students, I am told, are generally disliked (for obvious reasons) by servers, and tipping high is supposed to get me past that barrier and get better service in the future. Can anyone back this up?

Also, when I buy coffee at a local coffee shop, the receipt I'm given to sign has a place for a tip, like a tip is expected. However, my understanding was that a tip is for when you are actually served by a waiter or waitress. Am I really supposed to tip someone who is just working the counter at a coffee shop? I don't want to be rude, but I've never tipped there because no one is waiting my table or anything like that. It's seems to me like it would be no different than if the McDonald's guy who takes your order wanted a tip.


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## Andres (Apr 24, 2010)

if a person doesn't tip at least 10%, I think they should be embarrassed. Yes, I said it and I stand by it and to be honest, 10% is cheap. I usually tip closer to 20%, but if waitstaff are slow in filling up drinks, etc, then I will go 15%. I hope everyone is aware that waitstaff generally make about $4 an hour. Yes, it's less than minimum wage because their tips are included in their salary. Not to mention servers usually have to share tips with busboys. For everyone who thinks you are supposed to stiff a waiter whom you deem gave "poor" customer service, I disagree. The proper way to handle things if you truly feel you have received poor customer service is to speak to a manager, not to leave zero tip. 
Kathleen, you are right to be appalled by your friends that left no tip. Had they been my dinner companions, I would have had to say something to them and question their rudeness. Finally, for anyone who wants to complain that servers don't need/deserve a tip, then you don't need/deserve to go out to eat. Stay home and cook dinner.


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## Montanablue (Apr 24, 2010)

austinww said:


> 15% ordinarily (usually rounded up to the dollar, though). I'll leave more for really good service, less or nothing for really bad service.
> 
> I have a related question. When I buy coffee at a local coffee shop, the receipt I'm given to sign has a place for a tip, like a tip is expected. However, my understanding was that a tip is for when you are actually served by a waiter or waitress. Am I really supposed to tip someone who is just working the counter at a coffee shop? I don't want to be rude, but I've never tipped there because no one is waiting my table or anything like that. It's seems to be like it would be no different than if the McDonald's guy who takes your order wanted a tip.


 
I asked a friend who works at a coffee shop about this. She told me that they do make minimum wage (sometimes more than minimum) so I don't feel bad about not tipping them. I do tip sometimes if they make something special for me etc. 

Andres - it was actually my sister who had the experience and she sent me an email about it last night. She felt so bad, but she also couldn't cover their tips. They're all college students and they're all from very small towns, but I still felt that they should have known better.


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## Nate (Apr 24, 2010)

We usually go with 20% maximum and 10% minimum depending on the quality of service. I honestly don't think I could sleep at night if I didn't leave a tip in the situation Kathleen described.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> They're all college students and they're all from very small towns, but I still felt that they should have known better.


 
And that would explain what I was told about servers disliking college students.


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## Andres (Apr 24, 2010)

austinww said:


> Also, when I buy coffee at a local coffee shop, the receipt I'm given to sign has a place for a tip, like a tip is expected. However, my understanding was that a tip is for when you are actually served by a waiter or waitress. Am I really supposed to tip someone who is just working the counter at a coffee shop? I don't want to be rude, but I've never tipped there because no one is waiting my table or anything like that. It's seems to me like it would be no different than if the McDonald's guy who takes your order wanted a tip.



Austin, I frequent a local mexican fast-food joint here that has receipts that are similar. They even give the option to tip when you go through the drive-through! Of course, I don't believe a tip is warranted there, so I just draw a line through the tip blank. I think it's just the way they have their receipts set up to automatically print out.


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## Montanablue (Apr 24, 2010)

I am discussing this now with my sister on gchat, and she tells me the horrifying story of one of her friends who went out on a date, the guy wouldn't leave a tip, and the girl felt so bad that she ended up leaving the tip. I guess that's one way to find out whether or not he's a keeper...


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## Bookmeister (Apr 24, 2010)

austinww said:


> 15% ordinarily (usually rounded up to the dollar, though). I'll leave more for really good service, less for really bad service (e.g. verbally insulting the customer). I was once given the advice that as a college student, I should tip really high the first time I go somewhere. Teens and college students, I am told, are generally disliked (for obvious reasons) by servers, and tipping high is supposed to get me past that barrier and get better service in the future. Can anyone back this up?
> 
> Also, when I buy coffee at a local coffee shop, the receipt I'm given to sign has a place for a tip, like a tip is expected. However, my understanding was that a tip is for when you are actually served by a waiter or waitress. Am I really supposed to tip someone who is just working the counter at a coffee shop? I don't want to be rude, but I've never tipped there because no one is waiting my table or anything like that. It's seems to me like it would be no different than if the McDonald's guy who takes your order wanted a tip.


 
Austin,
As to your first question tipping really good the first time and then tipping less after that would get you a reputation as that guy who tipped good once and then, no matter how much it is if it is less, tipped poorly ever after.
Your question about the coffee is easy, they do not expect a tip but the CC machine is only capable of printing out receipts one way. I used to deliver pizza's and there was a place for a tip on the CC receipt, but it was also on the receipt when customers came to pick up their pizza, we did not expect the carry out customers to tip.

Andrew,
I don't know about where you are but in Missouri and Mississippi servers make $2.13/hr.

I almost forgot, we generally tip 20%.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

I would tip a coffee shop counter worker if they made me something special, but as it is, I just order regular black coffee straight from machine to cup.  The way I see it, if you wouldn't tip a McDonald's counter guy, how is this different? But I was open to being wrong. I'm glad to hear others don't think it's rude not to tip a counter worker, because I really don't want to stiff someone if a tip is expected.

I forgot to mention, I typically tip about 25% for haircuts.


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## Andres (Apr 24, 2010)

Bookmeister said:


> Andrew, I don't know about where you are but in Missouri and Mississippi servers make $2.13/hr.


 
Alan, that may very well be closer. I was just guessing because I knew it was significantly less than minimum wage. Your statement makes the point I was trying to make even more sound. Thank you sir.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

Bookmeister said:


> Austin,
> As to your first question tipping really good the first time and then tipping less after that would get you a reputation as that guy who tipped good once and then, no matter how much it is if it is less, tipped poorly ever after.
> Your question about the coffee is easy, they do not expect a tip but the CC machine is only capable of printing out receipts one way. I used to deliver pizza's and there was a place for a tip on the CC receipt, but it was also on the receipt when customers came to pick up their pizza, we did not expect the carry out customers to tip.


 
That makes sense. I try to tip the same consistently, 15% minimum for anything but extreme rudeness.


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## MarieP (Apr 24, 2010)

At a sit-down restaurant, 20% is now considered the norm. For take-out, I'll tip 15% or so (they still have to pack up your food!) Same for pizza delivery. My best friend and I were eating out a few weeks ago, and the waiter told her "Are you sure you want to eat all that food?" After some discussion, we decided to leave him a bit more than 20%.

Which brings up another question (as does Kathleen's story). How does returning good for evil apply to tipping? I can understand if a person simply is not doing their job (the only time I didn't tip was at a Steak N Shake where the waiter took our order, which was just dessert, and never returned. Someone else brought us the dessert- they have delicious brownie sundaes!- and check. And then we ordered a milkshake-to-go for a friend, and then ANOTHER person brought us that, which took him 20 minutes to make, which he gave us free. If it wasn't 10:30 on a weeknight, I might have waited to tip one of the waiters, but we decided we'd just leave.) But then again, hearing your friend called a racial slur or fat is not good either.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 24, 2010)

20% for prompt, friendly service, 15% if drinks go without refills, 10% if something is forgotten or a basic item has to be requested. I also round up to the nearest dollar most of the time (on paper or in cash--I read that tips on paper are often higher). 

I've waited tables, so I take into account how hectic the restaurant is, if I've made special requests, etc. I only tip where I assume only half minimum wage is paid--not Subway, ice cream parlors, coffee shops, etc.


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## TexanRose (Apr 24, 2010)

MarieP said:


> Which brings up another question (as does Kathleen's story). How does returning good for evil apply to tipping? I can understand if a person simply is not doing their job (the only time I didn't tip was at a Steak N Shake where the waiter took our order, which was just dessert, and never returned. Someone else brought us the dessert- they have delicious brownie sundaes!- and check. And then we ordered a milkshake-to-go for a friend, and then ANOTHER person brought us that, which took him 20 minutes to make, which he gave us free. If it wasn't 10:30 on a weeknight, I might have waited to tip one of the waiters, but we decided we'd just leave.) But then again, hearing your friend called a racial slur or fat is not good either.


 
I don't think that we are obligated to return good for evil by tipping well in the face of terrible service. 

I worked in the serving industry for years while in college so I do my best to assume the best about the server. If the food is late or of poor quality, the fault is probably with the kitchen, not the server; and the server will still get a full tip if he/she is at least apologetic and friendly about it. But a server like you described, MarieP, who never even came back to check on you--that's just carelessness and I think that giving a full tip in that situation would just encourage future carelessness.

Sometimes a server really does deserve a bad tip. In the serving industry, there's this stereotype that African-Americans are bad tippers. So I would often hear sighs of exasperation and see rolled eyes as a black family sat down at a co-worker's table. And there would be this attitude of "Well, might as well not work too hard on this table, as they won't be tipping well anyway." Well, hello, if you're approaching a table with that attitude, you can hardly expect to be tipped well! I got so frustrated sometimes, seeing my coworkers receive a bad tip as confirming their stereotypes, when in reality it was their own fault for being so bigoted! I consciously assumed the best about every customer, no matter what their skin color or nationality or how they were dressed, and I made good tips across the board.

I would usually tip about twenty percent, rounding off to an even dollar amount. Also, eating with children, I keep in mind that kids meals are cheap, but the kids are at least as much work as a grownup eating a more expensive meal, so I will round up to account for that. Also, if I happen to be in a restaurant on Christmas Day (happened year before last), I will tip extra out of sympathy for the server who most likely would rather not be working on that day (even though I don't celebrate Christmas).

Most servers (except maybe in Oregon?) make the federal minimum wage for tipped employees, which is $2.13 an hour. And a big chunk of tips made does go to the busboys, the hostess, the bartender, and the kitchen. If a table doesn't tip, you are actually losing money on that table, as you will still have to "tip out" the other employees.


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## Montanablue (Apr 24, 2010)

jambo said:


> As a Scot you could probably guess my view.


 
But don't restaurants in your area pay a normal wage? (When I was living in Wales, they did, and so I often didn't tip or only tipped very little. It didn't seem culturally expected) If I'm at a place where they pay at least minimum wage, then I do not feel obligated to tip.


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## lynnie (Apr 24, 2010)

My son's good friend in college just switched jobs from a couple years at a Cracker Barrel ( central NJ). She considered it a good day when she averaged 10 bucks an hour inc. the pittance they pay ( not close to minimum wage). They get buses with 3 dozen people on the way to the Atlantic City Casinos who all leave zero for a tip.


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## JM (Apr 24, 2010)

I tip 15% or more. If I can't afford to tip well for good service I don't go out to eat.


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## DMcFadden (Apr 24, 2010)

I seldom go to "nice" places (except for work). My assumption is that the wait staff are underpaid. Accordingly, good service = 20%; OK service = 15%.


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## Andres (Apr 24, 2010)

JM said:


> I tip 15% or more. *If I can't afford to tip well for good service I don't go out to eat*.



 the cheapskates would be wise to adhere to this advice.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Apr 24, 2010)

DMcFadden said:


> I seldom go to "nice" places (except for work). *My assumption is that the wait staff are underpaid. Accordingly, good service = 20%; OK service = 15%*.


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## Idelette (Apr 24, 2010)

I used to be a server for a short period of time, and then I worked at a coffee shop for several years so I understand what it's like. And ,yes, tipping at a gourmet coffee shop is the proper thing to do! They do a lot more work then just poor coffee.... most everything is done manually; cappuccinos, mochas, shakes etc. If it were a place like Dunkin Donuts then I wouldn't tip. But, if it were a place like Starbucks then I would tip because there is more work involved.

As far as the amount... it varies with the quality of service as others have said above. I'd say on average, I tip around 15%. For poor service about 10%, and really really bad service...absolutely nothing at all! (and yes, there is once that I left no tip at all...for horrible service!) For really good service, I tip 20%. But I've tipped even more for excellent service! I once tipped a lady 50% for a haircut, because she did exactly what I asked her to do...which is rare when getting my hair cut!


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

Idelette said:


> I used to be a server for a short period of time, and then I worked at a coffee shop for several years so I understand what it's like. And ,yes, tipping at a gourmet coffee shop is the proper thing to do! They do a lot more work then just poor coffee.... most everything is done manually; cappuccinos, mochas, shakes etc. If it were a place like Dunkin Donuts then I wouldn't tip. But, if it were a place like Starbucks then I would tip because there is more work involved.


 
Am I supposed to tip the counter worker for pouring me a small cup of black coffee? (Genuinely asking)


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## Idelette (Apr 24, 2010)

austinww said:


> Idelette said:
> 
> 
> > I used to be a server for a short period of time, and then I worked at a coffee shop for several years so I understand what it's like. And ,yes, tipping at a gourmet coffee shop is the proper thing to do! They do a lot more work then just poor coffee.... most everything is done manually; cappuccinos, mochas, shakes etc. If it were a place like Dunkin Donuts then I wouldn't tip. But, if it were a place like Starbucks then I would tip because there is more work involved.
> ...



Well, if it's just a cup of coffee....then I wouldn't worry about it. Do you ever get anything else?


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## Scott1 (Apr 24, 2010)

I never feel obligated to tip.

If service and/or attitude is very poor, there may be little or no tip.

It is based on service and attitude provided.

So, for average (sufficient) service, I would use 10% as a benchmark and round up.

For very good service, or if somehow there might be a testimony involved, I'll use 15-20% as a guide, perhaps even more.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

Idelette said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > Idelette said:
> ...


 
Sometimes I get a breakfast taco, which I think they buy from somewhere else, pre-wrapped. It's not a starbucks, just a regular, college town coffee shop.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 24, 2010)

I said 15% because it averages out for me. Sometimes I give more sometimes less, but never less than 10%. Minimum wage for waiting tables is less than minimum wage for other work. My nieces and nephew have all waited tables and find it frustrating as some folks will come in and leave nothing. My nephew worked in a high end restaurant and said that sometimes he walked away with $10 in tips for an entire evening of work. He was known to be one of the better waiters. Needless to say, he didn't last long there. He said folks with money were the worst about tipping. 

One of the things to keep in mind is that some restaurants pool the tips and divide them at the end of the evening. We go to one restuarant that does that. The service is fantastic no matter when you go in there or waits your table.


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## au5t1n (Apr 24, 2010)

Okay, who wants to be honest and admit they chose "I never tip"?


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## chbrooking (Apr 24, 2010)

I really do 20%, but I always go to an even dollar above. So technically it's over 20, but practically I'm thinking 20. I used to wait tables, so I'm sympathetic.


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (Apr 24, 2010)

We tip 18-20% for average or better service, up to 25% for really good.

How about tipping a cleaning lady at a hotel, would you say about "five bucks a night" or "one, two dollars tops"?


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## ac7k (Apr 24, 2010)

Andres said:


> Bookmeister said:
> 
> 
> > Andrew, I don't know about where you are but in Missouri and Mississippi servers make $2.13/hr.
> ...


 
In Washington State, the minimum wage is nearly $9 and hour... and servers and anyone else in the state is required to make that and tips are not counted as part of that wage. That is a far cry from $2.13 an hour... 

I usually tip between 10-15% depending on service.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 24, 2010)

I have a inner mandate for even numbers so the amount I tip is usually dictated by how much it will take to get to an even number. 

For instance if the bill is $43.28 I'll tip $6.72.


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## JoyFullMom (Apr 24, 2010)

20%. I used to wait tables. I used to get so mad when people would stiff a server and leave a tract. The same guy stiffed me and left me a tract three times in a row. The THIRD time, I took his tract to him at the door and assured him that I knew the Lord. The next time he came in, he left me a dollar. ::shaking my head::


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## jwithnell (Apr 24, 2010)

> I have a inner mandate for even numbers so the amount I tip is usually dictated by how much it will take to get to an even number.
> 
> For instance if the bill is $43.28 I'll tip $6.72.


 I can't figure a percentage of $43.28 in my head!!! I'll see that as around $4.50 for 10 percent and add on half more or less depending on the service.


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## Grace Alone (Apr 24, 2010)

15% for average, normal service.

20% for very good to excellent service (which isn't all that common, in my opinion).


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 24, 2010)

I will not tip more than 15 percent, and then for good service, and depending on the kind of establishment it is. I used to work at a restaurant, and I would watch some girls rake in 150 dollars in a 5 or 6 hour shift...usually from construction hands that were making 10 or 12 dollars an hour. I used to shake my head at the waitresses who were making more in 5 hours than the poor filthy roofers were making in a 10 to 12 hour, sun drenched day.

So yes, we should tip...but the waiters and waitresses do not deserve to make more than the poor guys up on the roof all day.


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## christiana (Apr 24, 2010)

At least fifteen percent but then I dont go very often either.
Arent servers paid at least minimum wage? I think that is over 7$/hr today in Texas, not sure of the exact amt. I agree that if one cannot afford the tip they shouldnt be eating there and cannot imagine anyone never tipping.


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## Montanablue (Apr 24, 2010)

christiana said:


> At least fifteen percent but then I dont go very often either.
> Arent servers paid at least minimum wage? I think that is over 7$/hr today in Texas, not sure of the exact amt. I agree that if one cannot afford the tip they shouldnt be eating there and cannot imagine anyone never tipping.



Nancy, I don't know about Texas, but in Montana, a server is paid about 2.50/hour. If servers were paid at least minimum wage, than I would not feel obligated to leave tips (or at least not ones that were so large - I'd probably do more around 5 or 10 %)


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## jambo (Apr 24, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> > As a Scot you could probably guess my view.
> ...


 
I am now embarrassed. I posted this tongue in cheek then decided to delete lest anyone got the wrong impression. But you have found me out!

In this country there is a minimum wage (well two actually; one for under 21s and one for over 21s) and tips are extras. Some restaurants have service included in the bill, others have a service charge for peak times or if the table has more than 4 or 6 diners. Tipping is not a big thing here apart from taxi drivers and some would tip in restaurants but not all by any means. However on the continent it is much bigger and almost expected. When we were in Turkey it was tip tip tip all the time. However the Turks really did go overboard to help and assist you in whatever way they could. In fact they were so helpful it was annoying. Whilst in Spain if you were in any eating place they would give you your change on a plate and the implication was you would pick up the notes but leave any coins.


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## christiana (Apr 24, 2010)

This may be helpful:
U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States

Does this mean that servers must be paid the minimum wage if they receive tips? I'm not sure about that part.


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## Theoretical (Apr 24, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> christiana said:
> 
> 
> > At least fifteen percent but then I dont go very often either.
> ...


 
Minimum wage is required everywhere, including for waitstaff but individual states (such as Texas) allow employers to pay only something like $2.50 per hour IF the employee makes more than minimum wage in tips. If the employee makes less than the full minimum wage by tips and base pay then the employer has to make up the difference to equal minimum wage. Some states apparently mandate the full minimum wage as a starting base before tips. Texas does not, so I'm more generous.


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## Andres (Apr 24, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> I will not tip more than 15 percent, and then for good service, and depending on the kind of establishment it is. I used to work at a restaurant, and I would watch some girls rake in 150 dollars in a 5 or 6 hour shift...usually from construction hands that were making 10 or 12 dollars an hour. I used to shake my head at the waitresses who were making more in 5 hours than the poor filthy roofers were making in a 10 to 12 hour, sun drenched day.
> 
> So yes, we should tip...but the waiters and waitresses do not deserve to make more than the poor guys up on the roof all day.


 
Damon, i have read some of your other posts and I know you are an intelligent man, but I'm sorry you're above reasoning is just plain dumb. 



christiana said:


> At least fifteen percent but then I dont go very often either.
> *Arent servers paid at least minimum wage?* I think that is over 7$/hr today in Texas, not sure of the exact amt. I agree that if one cannot afford the tip they shouldnt be eating there and cannot imagine anyone never tipping.


 
No they aren't, not at all. As several of the previous posters have mentioned, waitstaff makes around $2-$3 an hour. An that includes here in Texas.


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## christiana (Apr 24, 2010)

This may be found helpful:
How to Tip Your Server at a Restaurant: 6 steps - wikiHow


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## jrdnoland (Apr 24, 2010)

We (my wife and I both) generally tip 25%. We don't base it on the type of restaurant or on the type of service we receive. We look at it as a way to help someone who spends their life serving others.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 24, 2010)

I made $3/hour before tips in Mississippi in 2005-2006. My boss technically paid more than the minimum for waitstaff, and we shared tips (but no busboys/barkeep), as one mentioned above. It worked well there (a Reformed boss with several Christians on staff), but wouldn't work everywhere. All tips went in a jar, and the jar was divided among the three (sometimes two) waitresses at the end of our shift.


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## Idelette (Apr 24, 2010)

No, servers are not required by law to make minimum wage in any state. Some restaurants that are slower may choose to pay close to the min. wage, but most pay less. It's assumed that tips will compensate for the difference. Most of the servers I know back in Illinois make about $3.00-3.75 per hour plus tips.


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## Jack K (Apr 24, 2010)

Christians should tip generously when possible, even if it requires some sacrifice. We should _live_ generously, and this is part of it. After all, we know how generous Jesus has been with us. So we just can't help it. We like it! And those of us who've been given substantial financial resourses enjoy being particularly generous.

I know one unchurched barista who's started visiting our church. She got interested when she noticed the group of Christians who regularly meet at her coffeeshop for prayer were generous and joyful tippers. It shattered all the negative stereotypes she had of Christians, so she found out where they went to church.


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## Blue Tick (Apr 24, 2010)

I don't tip. I'll just leave a Chick Tract... J/K

Pretty simple, I work in the hospitality industry and let me say, make your server EARN their tip. If the service is bad don't tip, if the food is bad tell the server to inform the kitchen. The server really has no control over the food quality, however, they do have control over, service, hospitality, tact, selling pressure, and general good service. A good server will not presume to receive 20% they will work for your business. For the record I leave 20% if the service is good. If the food was bad or sub-par I don't punish the server for this. This is something that the server has no control over. If service was bad I'll leave 10-15% and inform the server and or manager about the experience. 

My opinion is somewhat jaded because I'm chef and I work with all types of servers, the good, the bad, and the ugly.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 24, 2010)

Andres said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > I will not tip more than 15 percent, and then for good service, and depending on the kind of establishment it is. I used to work at a restaurant, and I would watch some girls rake in 150 dollars in a 5 or 6 hour shift...usually from construction hands that were making 10 or 12 dollars an hour. I used to shake my head at the waitresses who were making more in 5 hours than the poor filthy roofers were making in a 10 to 12 hour, sun drenched day.
> ...



So you think it is o.k. for a less skilled and less physically intense job, to take exorbitant amounts of money from those who work harder, longer, and make less? What part of the logic are you failing to see?

Again, I do tip. However, a waiter who waits two (which is not much!) average sized tables in a hour long period, will typically make over 20 dollars for that hour, not counting their regular wages. This seems a bit excessive for a waiter/waitress. 

Christian generosity is certainly good (which is why I do tip), but for those of us who sink most of our money in church offerings, overseas missions, etc., why would you be overly generous to a person when you do not even know where the money is going? For all you know, the man or woman is using the money to go out and party (which is what most of the wait staff I worked with used it for...including several varieties of illegal drugs).

I am all for paying them what they earn...but no more. Fifteen percent, for good service, is more than enough. Just my perspective.


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## Theoretical (Apr 25, 2010)

In Texas:

 Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate $7.25
 Maximum Tip Credit Against Minimum Wage $5.12
 Minimum Cash Wage $2.13 
 Definition of Tipped Employee by Minimum Tips More than $20
 received (monthly unless otherwise specified)

U.S. Department of Labor - Employment Standards Administration (ESA) - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 25, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> So you think it is o.k. for a less skilled and less physically intense job, to take exorbitant amounts of money from those who work harder, longer, and make less?



If it's their job and they work for it, the amount they are due is the amount they are due. That's not hard logic to understand. It has nothing to do with what YOU THINK they should earn - you are not their boss, their God or their Savior and have no right to judge what you THINK they should earn. That's arrogant.

On the question: 15% for expected service. You sit down somewhere, someone waits on you, you tip them. In MD, they make somewhere in the $2.50 range, plus tips. Not tipping is *robbing them of income* because you're not paying them for the work they do *for you*. If the service is better than average, I do 18%. If it's outstanding, I tip 20% or more.


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## JoyFullMom (Apr 25, 2010)

With all due respect Damon, your reasoning sounds like that of a local dentist who didn't want to pay my carpenter husband his named bid for remodeling the dentist's house...because he (the dentist) went to college/dental school for his trade, and my dh didn't. Therefore, in his mind, my dh's labor was not as valuable as the dentist's.


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## Christopher88 (Apr 25, 2010)

I tip 15% to 20% most of the time it is 20%. 
Its hard to make a buck waiting tables, so if I can help someone out by giving a 20% tip than I will. However when I tip, its just me on the bill so a 2 to 3 dollar tip is 20% for me. I eat cheap


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## Brian Withnell (Apr 25, 2010)

BlackCalvinist said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > So you think it is o.k. for a less skilled and less physically intense job, to take exorbitant amounts of money from those who work harder, longer, and make less?
> ...


 
Gratuity: a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.

Not tipping is not robbing anyone. A tip, or gratuity, is payment over and above payment for service. The error is their employer (and the law) that pays less than minimum wage based on "well, they will earn tips" as an excuse. Really good restaurants do not allow tipping, and they pay their employees a fair and living wage. Gratuity is from the same root as grace. If grace is forced, it is no longer grace, but the wages due. Wages are what an employer pays, and the customer of a restaurant is not the employer of the wait staff.

If I had any choice, I'd never go to a restaurant that allowed tipping, but I'm not rich enough to eat at the Clifton every time I go out (and McDonalds wouldn't cut it with the wife for an anniversary or birthday). So I do tip the staff, with 15% a starting point from which the amount goes up for good service, or down for less than average service. Most of the time, it is 15%. But it should be zero for average service, the wait staff should be paid wages by the employer, and the customer should be allowed to be gracious to those that do an exceptional job if they are so inclined.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 25, 2010)

The difference is, by definition, "Gratuity" is not a requirement. I have never seen "tipping required" on a menu. This means it is my discretion how much they should be getting. And I, personally, think a person should be paid based on the labor they perform, not on some "norm" that has been established by the restaurant industry, in order to justify them robbing their employees. 

Let's say me and five people go to Chili's, and eat, staying there for an hour, and have a bill of 60 bucks (12 dollars per person). Fifteen percent gratuity is 9 bucks, plus the 2.50 the employer is paying. 

Now, that would be a fair wage. The problem is, it's not just me and that table. Its my party, and 2 (or 3 or 4!) others. That waiter just made almost 30 dollars for that hour. That is outrageous. And since it is a "gratuity" (not required) I think anything over that would be VERY excessive, and in fact, woud be bad stewardship on my part. We have a responsibility to be wise with the money that God has give to us; not hand it out to people willy-nilly, regardless of what they might be doing with it. If you want to be generous, give your money away wisely...

Now, I will say that at someplace like Denny's, if I just drink coffee or something, I have a minimum tip of 2 bucks. But that is the only exception.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm all for tipping (I usually tip 20% plus) but the attitude of "tip well or stay home" is just bizarre to me. Brian is right - it is a gratuity, up to the patron, not set in stone. There is no minimum, and rude, haughty, or incompetent servers should be given exactly 0%. There's nothing wrong with that.

If it is because they make so little, then I hope you tip your garbage collector. In a lot of places, they make about $25K/year (though up here, it is more like $40K) - how often do you tip them? That their employer is the city/a waste management company and doesn't pay them enough and it's not my problem doesn't cut it, if we're talking about tipping to make up for a low salary. Why then not tip everyone who makes less than $25K a year, as a matter of principle?


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## Montanablue (Apr 25, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> I'm all for tipping (I usually tip 20% plus) but the attitude of "tip well or stay home" is just bizarre to me. Brian is right - it is a gratuity, up to the patron, not set in stone. There is no minimum, and rude, haughty, or incompetent servers should be given exactly 0%. There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> If it is because they make so little, then I hope you tip your garbage collector. In a lot of places, they make about $25K/year (though up here, it is more like $40K) - how often do you tip them? That their employer is the city/a waste management company and doesn't pay them enough and it's not my problem doesn't cut it, if we're talking about tipping to make up for a low salary. Why then not tip everyone who makes less than $25K a year, as a matter of principle?


 
Well, a person making 2.50 an hour that works 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year will make 5,200 in 1 year. Which is a lot less than 25,000. That's why I tip my waiter and not my garbage man. It just SO much less.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 25, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> The difference is, by definition, "Gratuity" is not a requirement. I have never seen "tipping required" on a menu. This means it is my discretion how much they should be getting. And I, personally, think a person should be paid based on the labor they perform, not on some "norm" that has been established by the restaurant industry, in order to justify them robbing their employees.
> 
> Let's say me and five people go to Chili's, and eat, staying there for an hour, and have a bill of 60 bucks (12 dollars per person). Fifteen percent gratuity is 9 bucks, plus the 2.50 the employer is paying.
> 
> ...


 
Once again, rarely does the waitress keep all the tip, and what happens to the hourly average when two tables don't tip?


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## jjraby (Apr 25, 2010)

reformedminister said:


> I used to wait on tables when I was in college. You would be surprised the number of people who are "bad tippers", especially Christians. I used to hear other waiters and waitresses who were unbelievers go on how Christians were bad tippers, especially the after church crowd. This is a shame and a bad witness. It is common knowledge that when you go to a restaurant and have someone wait on you that you need to leave a tip. When I used to wait on tables, my employers paid us like half of minimum wage because we got tips. This was across the board twenty years ago. From my understanding 15% is the amount expected for tipping. It is less than that if you go to a place like a buffet and you don't have a full service server. I always leave 20% for good service, and maybe only 10% if I have really bad service.


 
i agree, i wait tables as well and i hear this all the time.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 25, 2010)

> Well, a person making 2.50 an hour that works 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year will make 5,200 in 1 year. Which is a lot less than 25,000. That's why I tip my waiter and not my garbage man. It just SO much less.



True, but what then is a proper wage? At what point do you not tip? No waiter makes $5200 a year if they are barely civil to their clientele.

My point is more the attitude of "tip well or stay home". You get good tippers and you get bad tippers and everything in between. At the end of the day, each should be served in a friendly and punctual manner. 

When my father gets a client in the office with a $500 cheque to open an investment account, we (the office) may get as little as $2.50 in trailers for the *year*. And yet they are treated with the same respect and service as someone bringing in $1million. That's our job. But it costs us between $100-200 to open and maintain that file and process the paperwork. Too bad. They get coffee offered to them, they are catered to as anyone else may be, we smile at them and treat them as well as anyone else (and don't do it just as a facade to get more out of them).



> Now, that would be a fair wage. The problem is, it's not just me and that table. Its my party, and 2 (or 3 or 4!) others. That waiter just made almost 30 dollars for that hour. That is outrageous. And since it is a "gratuity" (not required) I think anything over that would be VERY excessive, and in fact, woud be bad stewardship on my part.



I don't have a problem with someone who is good at their job making $30 an hour, no matter how trivial their job may be. Just so long as the service is decent. I have a problem with a set minimum being given to someone who barely has the time of day for me because I only ordered a Coke. (Besides, I know lots of construction workers who spend a lot of the day leaning on a shovel - they don't deserve $12 bucks an hour!)


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## AThornquist (Apr 25, 2010)

If the service is bad enough to where I would not want to be waited on by that person again, I would give them absolutely nothing and report them to the management. If they are barely making rent, they either need a new job or they need to get their act together. The point of a restaurant isn't to help the poor, otherwise I would be tipping at the drive through at Taco Bell, that minimum wage kid who bags my groceries at Safeway, the dude who gives me my shoes at the bowling alley, etc. Again, I'm not saying that one shouldn't tip, but the idea that one must give a tip even to the worst of servers is a silly tradition of man and is like giving the kids who, in a serious competition where ability and skill are top considerations, get 37th place out of 36 teams and yet still get a shiny trophy. There is no way I am going to *support* bad service by contributing money to it.

Still, if service was okay then I will give 10%-15%, depending on what was less than preferred. If it was great, I will give anywhere from 20-50%, and I will probably let the management know of the wonderful experience. I _do_ want to support those who are doing it right. They earned their wages by satisfying the customer.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 25, 2010)

Scottish Lass said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > The difference is, by definition, "Gratuity" is not a requirement. I have never seen "tipping required" on a menu. This means it is my discretion how much they should be getting. And I, personally, think a person should be paid based on the labor they perform, not on some "norm" that has been established by the restaurant industry, in order to justify them robbing their employees.
> ...


 
I don't know how it is where you are, but down here in South Texas, the most the waitress or waiter will lose from their tips is a 10 percent "tip out" to the guy busing their tables. And the person that doesn't leave a tip, is a rare exception. In my year and a half working at Potato Patch, I think I saw less than a dozen tables leave without tipping. Most of the girls I worked with, averaged around 150 bucks in tips (more on Friday and Saturday nights, and Sunday afternoons, less on Mondays and Tuesdays..), in a 5 to 6 hour shift...after tip out.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 25, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> > Damon Rambo said:
> ...


 
They're not tipping the bartender? I waited in a restaurant that didn't serve alcohol, so we did well to take in $150/shift to divide among the three of us for a five-hour shift. When the average table is under $30, it's hard to make much. Now, I chose to work there, but at least one of the waitresses would have been hard pressed to work somewhere else (small town, dry town, no education/job skills, etc.). Now, we rarely had folks who didn't tip, but that was because everybody knew everybody and there would be a shame factor in not tipping the preacher's wife!


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## Kevin (Apr 25, 2010)

here servers make about 10 bucks an hour. So tipping is more in the 10-15 % range. But the industry still promotes the 15% rule.


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 25, 2010)

Brian Withnell said:


> BlackCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> > Damon Rambo said:
> ...



Maybe the restaurants shouldn't call it a gratuity, since (in most cases) with a larger party, they _automatically_ include the gratuity in the final bill, whether you want to do it or not. 

Second, 'really good restaurants' (whatever THAT means) _do_ allow tipping and it is _expected._ And I *am* talking about places that do valet parking and there's only one of those restaurants (period) to places that are chain restaurants (i.e. The Melting Pot) where their servers are heavily trained to not simply be 'waiters'.

Third, the places that hire these folk tell them straight up that they are working for XXX minimum wage PLUS TIPS. There is a difference (and I don't know why) in minimum wage for waitstaff/servers versus any other job (at least in MD). So it's understood (on the side of the employer and employee) that the tip is not 'grace', but 'due'. Some places automatically include the tip as a part of the bill - others give the calculations to 'help out' customers so they don't have to do the math themselves.....

But hey, it's easy to claim someone is 'overpaid' when it's not you doing the work but receiving the service. Most of the execs at Goldman-Sachs don't believe the people that work under them work hard either and do this to justify their own raises and bonuses......


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## puritanpilgrim (Apr 26, 2010)

15-20%


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## Brian Withnell (Apr 26, 2010)

BlackCalvinist said:


> Maybe the restaurants shouldn't call it a gratuity, since (in most cases) with a larger party, they _automatically_ include the gratuity in the final bill, whether you want to do it or not.
> 
> Second, 'really good restaurants' (whatever THAT means) _do_ allow tipping and it is _expected._ And I *am* talking about places that do valet parking and there's only one of those restaurants (period) to places that are chain restaurants (i.e. The Melting Pot) where their servers are heavily trained to not simply be 'waiters'.
> 
> ...



I don't patronize restaurants that add a "gratuity" as part of the bill. When you say it is understood on the part of the employer and employee that the tip is not "grace" but what is due, then it ought not be a tip, but wages paid, and prices adjusted to fit the wages paid. By making it wages plus tips, the management is essentially refusing to do their job.

Putting the wages of the wait staff in the hands of the customers is done so the restaurant managers don't have to do what I see as their job ... making sure that everything, including the service rendered, is done properly, and that their employees are properly compensated. That is management's job ... and the only industries that get away with such laziness are the service industries (restaurants, hotels and such). It should never have been allowed in the first place.

Like I said, I do tip wait staff. But certainly not because it is "due" them. It isn't. My being a customer is with the restaurant, not the wait staff who are employees of the restaurant. The wait staff negotiate their wages with the restaurant, not with me. If they come to me and render a service level agreement, then perhaps there is a "due" for their service. Unless they negotiate with me for that service level agreement, I *owe* them nothing.

Getting the food to the table well prepared, hot or cold as the food requires, assuring a pleasant dining experience is the job of the restaurant, and I do contract with them to pay for goods provided. They are the ones that contract with their employees, not the customer. The customer cannot fire the employee if the service is poor, but he can go elsewhere from that point forward.


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## Jack K (Apr 26, 2010)

How much do you tip?

I try to stand as straight up as possible. I'm a tall guy, so if I tip any more than about 15% I fall over. There's biblical support for this: "Praise befits the upright" (Ps 33:1).

Oh, you mean _that_ kind of tipping...


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## CatechumenPatrick (Apr 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> if a person doesn't tip at least 10%, I think they should be embarrassed. Yes, I said it and I stand by it and to be honest, 10% is cheap. I usually tip closer to 20%, but if waitstaff are slow in filling up drinks, etc, then I will go 15%. I hope everyone is aware that waitstaff generally make about $4 an hour. Yes, it's less than minimum wage because their tips are included in their salary. Not to mention servers usually have to share tips with busboys. For everyone who thinks you are supposed to stiff a waiter whom you deem gave "poor" customer service, I disagree. The proper way to handle things if you truly feel you have received poor customer service is to speak to a manager, not to leave zero tip.
> Kathleen, you are right to be appalled by your friends that left no tip. Had they been my dinner companions, I would have had to say something to them and question their rudeness. Finally, for anyone who wants to complain that servers don't need/deserve a tip, then you don't need/deserve to go out to eat. Stay home and cook dinner.


 
My wife is a server and she makes $2.65 an hour before tips, and after taxes (since 15% of one's sales are taxed as a server) she never sees any of it!


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## Tripel (Apr 26, 2010)

I tip well. Always 20% or more. I don't put a lot of effort into figuring out an exact percentage, but just shoot for around 20% while rounding up to closest $5 amount. Let's say the bill is for $24. A 20% tip would work out to a total of $28.80. I'm not the type of person who gives $30 and asks for $1.20 in change. I'm leaving $30. 

I can think of only a handful of cases where I didn't really tip at all. If this service is inexcusably poor, you get nothing from me, and like I said, this has only happened a few times. I don't tip based upon spectrum of service--you either do your job well, or you screw it up and miss out on my generous tip.


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## Andres (Apr 26, 2010)

Personally, I'm having a hard time understanding leaving absolutely no tip. And leaving the .01 cent tip or similar just seems flat-out rude. I guess I've been fortunate that i've never received service so poorly that I could justify stiffing someone. I'm not saying I've never had servers mess up my order or make a mistake, but I just tell them the error and they have always rectified it. I mean shouldn't we have some grace towards people? So they forgot your mustard or they brought the wrong side. Just mention the mistake and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to fix it. 

With that said, I want to give some of you the benefit of the doubt. I am curious to know some of you guys specific experiences that were so bad you refused to leave a tip. What happened?


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## Tripel (Apr 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> I want to give some of you the benefit of the doubt. I am curious to know some of you guys specific experiences that were so bad you refused to leave a tip. What happened?



About 2 years ago my wife and I went to a cajun-inspired restaurant. It was a Saturday lunch on a beautiful day, but the restaurant was mostly empty. We walked in, and the sign said to wait to be seated. We waited. After 5 minutes of waiting at the front, we were spotted by the hostess and seated. Then we waited....and waited. Probably 10 minutes before seeing a server. Our waitress finally showed up, gave us our menus, and disappeared for another 20 minutes. When she returned we ordered. When she brought us our drinks, and we asked for straws. She said she'd be right back. She wasn't. She didn't return for another 20-30 minutes when she brought us our food. We reminded her about the straws and pointed out that we had no silverware. She said she'd be right back. We sat for another 5-10 minutes staring at our food with no silverware. She finally brought us forks. No straws. I reminded her to bring straws. She said she'd be right back. We didn't see her again until she brought us the bill. The total was for $29.something. I gave her $40 cash and asked for change. She brought me a $10 bill as change. I didn't have any small bills to tip, and frankly, she is not very bright if she doesn't know to give me change in small denominations. 

I didn't feel bad for a second about not leaving a tip.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------




> Personally, I'm having a hard time understanding leaving absolutely no tip. And leaving the .01 cent tip or similar just seems flat-out rude.



What's rude is being in the service industry and making no effort to provide good service.


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## TexanRose (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> The difference is, by definition, "Gratuity" is not a requirement. I have never seen "tipping required" on a menu. This means it is my discretion how much they should be getting. And I, personally, think a person should be paid based on the labor they perform, not on some "norm" that has been established by the restaurant industry, in order to justify them robbing their employees.
> 
> Let's say me and five people go to Chili's, and eat, staying there for an hour, and have a bill of 60 bucks (12 dollars per person). Fifteen percent gratuity is 9 bucks, plus the 2.50 the employer is paying.
> 
> ...


 
I worked at Chili's. Trust me, the average server at Chili's is NOT making $30 an hour. And the average person eating at Chili's is not spending $12. For every table of 6 you have at least one person who already ate and just wants water, please, with lots of extra lemon slices, so that they can make their own lemonade for free. And at least one other person just wants an appetizer. Or maybe the whole group just wants to split a couple of appetizers. Oh, and by the way, a table of 6 is considered a "big-top" at Chili's; the average table consists of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 people. 

And the "rush" only lasts for two hours or maybe three on a good night, whereas your shift is anywhere from five to eight hours long. During the slow times you might have one table at a time, maybe two, and one of them might be one lady eating a $6.50 burger and drinking water. And before you get any tables at all, you spend some time doing prep work; and at the end of your shift, you spend a good chunk of time cleaning and doing paperwork. During those times you are making *only* $2.13 an hour. Sure, you might make $30 or even $40 during the busiest hour of the night, but when you average it out over the whole shift, the hourly rate is nowhere near that high. 

Plus you have to average the busy shifts out with the slow shifts. I worked plenty of shifts (weekday lunch shifts, usually) where I "walked" with $10 or 15. Which came out to a lot less than minimum wage. But the employers didn't have to subsidize your wages unless your wages came out to less than minimum wage for the whole two weeks of the pay period.

I was a decent server, and I averaged less than $10 an hour at Chili's. That work included being treated rudely by managers and customers alike, I'm talking about dehumanizing rudeness at times, being exposed to every germ under the sun, getting splattered with grease, cleaning up every sort of mess from vomit to human waste (yes, we had to clean the bathrooms if they got too bad during the shift), etc. etc. Oh, and if a table left without paying, I paid for their meal myself out of my tips (this was actually true at every restaurant I worked at). 

Please, tip your server, ESPECIALLY if you are eating at one of those big chain restaurants.

EDIT: sorry if I sound upset about this, but waiting tables was seriously a tough job, and I'm frustrated that more people don't recognize that. Just because the job isn't as *physically* demanding as, say, construction work, doesn't mean that servers don't deserve decent pay for what they do.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

TexanRose said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > The difference is, by definition, "Gratuity" is not a requirement. I have never seen "tipping required" on a menu. This means it is my discretion how much they should be getting. And I, personally, think a person should be paid based on the labor they perform, not on some "norm" that has been established by the restaurant industry, in order to justify them robbing their employees.
> ...


 
Please understand that I do not mean this in a rude way. But if you were only averaging 10 bucks an hour at Chili's, you were either severely disliked by the guy making the schedule, or there was some other issue. Besides having worked in the industry, most of my friends (back in my pre-Christian partying days), worked as waiters/waitresses. I have two friends, in particular, who worked as construction supervisors (Foremen/lead man) that quit, and went to work as waiters, because they were not making enough. One of them worked at Johhny Carino's; he had been making 12.50 p/hr as a lead man...he was averaging 18 bucks an hour at Carino's. 

The other did quite a bit better. As far as small tables go...that must be a Houston phenomenon. Our Chili's down here in lake Jackson rarely has a table of less than four people. Most of the tables are actually large parties, and in fact, they had to add an extra room to accommodate the large number of 8+ groups which inundated the place.

Again; it's gratuity. We are not responsible for the waiter's or waitresses wages. That is their employers responsibility. If they do an excellent job, I have no problem tipping fifteen percent. If they do an average job, I might only give 10. If they are deliberately rude, or grossly incompetent, they will be lucky to get a dollar.


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## Michael Doyle (Apr 26, 2010)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> > I seldom go to "nice" places (except for work). *My assumption is that the wait staff are underpaid. Accordingly, good service = 20%; OK service = 15%*.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Miss Sharon,
> 
> I want to clarify, lest I was unclear in my first post. My non-tipping would apply merely to those who are pro-actively rude, etc. and _carelessly_ incompetent. As noted before, sincere effort in an endeavor makes a big difference, despite maybe some poor performance. I also never meant to imply that waiting tables was an easy job. I've been in the service industry before and I know the cruel treatments to which you allude. I tip very generously to some, fair to most, etc.


 
That's true. If the waitress is working hard, but maybe is having a bad day (or clumsy) and spills something on me, etc., I would not let that affect the tip. If she rolls her eyes whenever I ask for something, that definitely will!


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## Theoretical (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> TexanRose said:
> 
> 
> > Damon Rambo said:
> ...


 
Then it's a Lake Jackson thing (as far as large tables go). Most tables in the Dallas area are small and as Sharon mentioned there are a a LOT of dead periods in restaurants, including even an occasional bad weekend. And I've even seen one good waiter get hosed by a table that ordered $50 of food and snuck out before he brought the food. Plus I've observed firsthand how bad some customers can be simply in my own family  Asking for two or three redos of a steak because it's not the micro-precise shade of pink-to-red you want and special ordering everything, while still sometimes only leaving 20% or less tip is not cool.

For the record, I've never been waitstaff but try to be observant of both friends who are and the staff's of the places where I eat. Now as to the issue that employers should pay their staffs rather than rely on me to do it, I'd much prefer that arrangement.


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## TexanRose (Apr 26, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Miss Sharon,
> 
> I want to clarify, lest I was unclear in my first post. My non-tipping would apply merely to those who are pro-actively rude, etc. and _carelessly_ incompetent. As noted before, sincere effort in an endeavor makes a big difference, despite maybe some poor performance. I also never meant to imply that waiting tables was an easy job. I've been in the service industry before and I know the cruel treatments to which you allude. I tip very generously to some, fair to most, etc.


 
Mr. Joshua,

Of course, I would understand not tipping in those circumstances. I didn't mean to imply that we should tip generously in the face of genuinely lousy service; just that we should appreciate what servers do, in general, and not make assumptions about how much money they are making, or whether they deserve it.

Mr. Damon,

Carino's is more of an upscale restaurant than Chili's, so it stands to reason that the servers working there would make more than servers working at Chili's. Please note that jobs in the more upscale restaurants are harder to come by, and most servers are not able to make that kind of money. I generally made 20% or better tips and still made a relatively low hourly wage. This was in the Midwest; perhaps in Texas, things are different.

My favorite people ever to wait on were, in this order: other servers; parents or other family members of servers; and construction workers/contractors, who respected the work I did, and didn't want my job any more than I wanted theirs.


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## Andres (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> TexanRose said:
> 
> 
> > Damon Rambo said:
> ...


 
Damon, you may not have meant what you said in a rude way, but it certainly was rude. You are implying that Sharon was not a good waitress. You're know-it-all attitude has grown old brother.


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

Andres said:


> Damon, you may not have meant what you said in a rude way, but it certainly was rude. You are implying that Sharon was not a good waitress. You're know-it-all attitude has grown old brother.



I neither stated that, nor implied it. Please quit putting words in my mouth. 

I call things the way I see them. You call it a "know it all" attitude. I call it a rejection of pluralism. I am not going to accept something that goes everything that I have seen, experienced, and received first hand accounts of, simply because someone else tells me it is wrong. I have seen the extremely large wads of cash that a good waitress, at a "middle of the road" restaurant, can rake in. Someone else saying "uh-uh," does not undo that experiential knowledge.

So, please feel free to disagree with me. But, if you don't mind, quit attacking my person. Thanks in advance, brother.


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## Tripel (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> So, please feel free to disagree with me.


 
I, too, am going to disagree with you. 

Everyone I know who worked as a server did so to make ends meet until they could get a better, higher-paying job. If servers typically made $20 an hour, it would not be a stepping-stone profession.


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## Andres (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon, I was just trying to defend Sharon's honor from what I perceived as a rude remark you made to her and about her. You even started your comment with, "I don't mean this in a rude way..." I learned a long time ago that when people preface a comment with that, they are about to say something rude. I felt you were disrespectful to her by implying she was a bad waitress. She is a lady and deserves to be treated as such. I never said you said she was a bad waitress so I did not put words in your mouth. I apologize if I was overzealous in my comments, but many times you portray your experiences as concrete across the board and this is simply not the case. I don't doubt for a second that you are telling the truth about what you have witnessed in the past, all I am asking is that you be more gracious if others have had experiences different than yours. They can be correct too.

I also owe Sharon an apology because I am sure she does not need me to defend her honor.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 26, 2010)

I tip 20% across the board. Great service will get as much as 30% but even a rude waiter/waitress gets 20% from me. I wasn't always this way but I remember a particularly rude waitress in North Carolina. She was extraordinarily rude and could not get anything right and just had the biggest chip on her shoulder. I was deadset not to give her any gratuity and my wife agreed with me. I felt convicted for some reason and instead tipped her a $20 which came out to ~30%. She was floored as was I and burst into tears and ran to the back. My wife and I walked out and the manager came out and explained that her boyfriend was in jail for murdering her mother and her baby but she had to work because if not she was going to lose her apartment and her other child. My tip was the only one she had gotten that night and it brought her to tears that even though she knew she had been rude that I tipped her anyway. I decided then and there that if a waiter/waitress is rude it's because they must be going through something. It's interesting because at certain restaurants we frequent we have certain waiters/waitress that request us in their section. I'm just a big softee.


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## Theoretical (Apr 26, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> I tip 20% across the board. Great service will get as much as 30% but even a rude waiter/waitress gets 20% from me. I wasn't always this way but I remember a particularly rude waitress in North Carolina. She was extraordinarily rude and could not get anything right and just had the biggest chip on her shoulder. I was deadset not to give her any gratuity and my wife agreed with me. I felt convicted for some reason and instead tipped her a $20 which came out to ~30%. She was floored as was I and burst into tears and ran to the back. My wife and I walked out and the manager came out and explained that her boyfriend was in jail for murdering her mother and her baby but she had to work because if not she was going to lose her apartment and her other child. My tip was the only one she had gotten that night and it brought her to tears that even though she knew she had been rude that I tipped her anyway. I decided then and there that if a waiter/waitress is rude it's because they must be going through something. It's interesting because at certain restaurants we frequent we have certain waiters/waitress that request us in their section. I'm just a big softee.


 
We think very much alike, sir. And, wow what a tragic story that you were able to brighten a little bit. I too have felt that the best way to address rudeness is often generosity.


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## JoyFullMom (Apr 26, 2010)

I have to wonder, Damon, why in the world *you* are not employed as a server at your Lake Jackson Chili's since it seems to be such a profitable place to work. I bet they have people waiting on the waitstaff to quit so they can snag their position!  

I post that in good humor, because your posts are the most amazing stories I've ever heard!


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

JoyFullMom said:


> I have to wonder, Damon, why in the world *you* are not employed as a server at your Lake Jackson Chili's since it seems to be such a profitable place to work. I bet they have people waiting on the waitstaff to quit so they can snag their position!
> 
> I post that in good humor, because your posts are the most amazing stories I've ever heard!


 
Well, I just looked up the average hourly wage for a server at Chili's (counting tips, and wages): it's 15 to 17 dollars per hour, according to the servers.

That is not the surprising part, to me, though. What is surprising is how little the poor cooks make (9 bucks), or how much the Managers make (72,000 per year!!!). 

As far as working there...I am a minister. I am poor, and I like it that way.  (and yes, it is hard to get a job there).


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## calgal (Apr 26, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> I tip 20% across the board. Great service will get as much as 30% but even a rude waiter/waitress gets 20% from me. I wasn't always this way but I remember a particularly rude waitress in North Carolina. She was extraordinarily rude and could not get anything right and just had the biggest chip on her shoulder. I was deadset not to give her any gratuity and my wife agreed with me. I felt convicted for some reason and instead tipped her a $20 which came out to ~30%. She was floored as was I and burst into tears and ran to the back. My wife and I walked out and the manager came out and explained that her boyfriend was in jail for murdering her mother and her baby but she had to work because if not she was going to lose her apartment and her other child. My tip was the only one she had gotten that night and it brought her to tears that even though she knew she had been rude that I tipped her anyway. I decided then and there that if a waiter/waitress is rude it's because they must be going through something. It's interesting because at certain restaurants we frequent we have certain waiters/waitress that request us in their section. I'm just a big softee.


 
Frank you think like my husband does. And it is nice to see that mindset. And tipping for good service is a gentlemanly action as well as a good witness of Christ. Too many folks leave a tract but no tip but make sure everyone sees them a' prayin'. And that is tragic.


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## TexanRose (Apr 26, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> JoyFullMom said:
> 
> 
> > I have to wonder, Damon, why in the world *you* are not employed as a server at your Lake Jackson Chili's since it seems to be such a profitable place to work. I bet they have people waiting on the waitstaff to quit so they can snag their position!
> ...


 
Where do you find that info?


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## Blue Tick (Apr 26, 2010)

For clarification. The restaurant I work in servers can pull in between $150-$500 per night ($150.00 on the low end). So again my opinion is biased. If a server can come in and make that much in a 6-7 hour period good for them. However, if they work for me they better represent the food well, give the guest impeccable service, respect the kitchen, and have a sound working knowledge of the menu. I run a tight ship. The point is there are some establishments where servers do very well. There's a difference in serving say at a chain restaurant as opposed to a fine dining establishment. Chain restaurants tend to have a little more flexibility and "flaws" are sometimes over looked. In fine dining guests are less forgiving. So the expectation is raised depending on the venue. What one may consider good service at Red Lobster is not the same service you would expect at Le Cirque.


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## Herald (Apr 26, 2010)

I voted "I never tip." Cow tipping is dangerous. I mean, those bovines are big! I can pull a muscle or have one topple over on me. Then I'd have to yell, "Help! A cow has fallen on me and I can't get up!"


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## Damon Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

TexanRose said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > JoyFullMom said:
> ...


 
This is an average taken across several online anonymous salary posting sites, such as glassdoor.com...

Chili's Waiter Hourly Pay | Glassdoor.com

The managers...posting a range of income from 58K to 110,000 per year (That must be a regional manager, instead of a store manager. I cannot imagine a Chili's manager making that much...).

Yearly salaries for the waiters/servers, across several different restaurant chains (Red Lobster, Chili's, etc.), averaged 15K a year, to 35K a year, depending on hours worked (20 hrs/week to 40+). You have to be careful looking at them, though, because a lot of servers post there 2 buck an hour wage, without listing their tips, which pulls down the average.

Anyway, interesting stuff. Well, not really. But I was bored.


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## smhbbag (Apr 27, 2010)

> This is an average taken across several online anonymous salary posting sites, such as glassdoor.com...
> 
> Chili's Waiter Hourly Pay | Glassdoor.com



Did you note the (1) listed as the number of salaries that gave that average?

I'm no statistician, but I'm fairly certain that a sample needs to be more than a single, anonymous individual.

And this does not mention the fact that the surveys and comments on sites like that are _overrun_ by the employers themselves. Just like apartment owners get on apartments.com and pretend to be tenants who love the place, I would seriously question whether this person is even legitimate at all.

However, on the previous page, we have a sample of equal size (1), and a testimony from someone who is not anonymous - TexanRose. I'll go with her on this one.


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## The Author of my Faith (Apr 27, 2010)

If you are not going to tip you should eat at home. There is nothing worse than a stingy Christian. I have had the same experience as your sister. It has been my experience that many Christians are bad tippers, not all, but many. The waitstaff depends on tips and it is an insult and very disrespectful to short-change them. Their paycheck is like 3.00 an hour so they depend on this money for their livelyhood. It is like your boss at the end of the week throwing you some spare change for your hard work. If the service is bad because of the bad attitude of the waitress that is a different story but even then, as beleivers we should extend grace.

---------- Post added at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------




calgal said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > I tip 20% across the board. Great service will get as much as 30% but even a rude waiter/waitress gets 20% from me. I wasn't always this way but I remember a particularly rude waitress in North Carolina. She was extraordinarily rude and could not get anything right and just had the biggest chip on her shoulder. I was deadset not to give her any gratuity and my wife agreed with me. I felt convicted for some reason and instead tipped her a $20 which came out to ~30%. She was floored as was I and burst into tears and ran to the back. My wife and I walked out and the manager came out and explained that her boyfriend was in jail for murdering her mother and her baby but she had to work because if not she was going to lose her apartment and her other child. My tip was the only one she had gotten that night and it brought her to tears that even though she knew she had been rude that I tipped her anyway. I decided then and there that if a waiter/waitress is rude it's because they must be going through something. It's interesting because at certain restaurants we frequent we have certain waiters/waitress that request us in their section. I'm just a big softee.
> ...



Frank and your husband are ok in my book!!! 

"excuse me do you know Jesus loves you, here is a tract, oh by the way I appreciate all your labor and service while I was here but I am not going to tip you because I want you to realize that your true reward is in heaven"  hehe!

---------- Post added at 08:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 AM ----------

43% tip 20% so that leaves 57% of Christians who are cheap skates!!! LOL!!!


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## The Author of my Faith (Apr 27, 2010)

Joshua said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > And tipping for good service is a gentlemanly action as well as a good witness of Christ. Too many folks leave a tract but no tip but make sure everyone sees them a' prayin'. And that is tragic.
> ...


 
Josh,

I think you are correct but I believe that for the majority of cases, or at least what I have experienced the issue was not that the server was lazy or nasty but the contraty. I agree tipping someone with an attitude who simply is lazy should be reconsidered but usually those type of waiters and waitresses do not last long. The management ususally catches on and realizes that bad service affects business. I worked in the service industry most of my life started out washing dishes, busboy, waiter, bartender so I know that for the majority of cases it really does not come down to bad service but simply stingy customers. And it is usually the stingy customers that are the most demanding.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 27, 2010)

calgal said:


> Theoretical said:
> 
> 
> > SemperEruditio said:
> ...



Thanks Brothers and Sisters! Now if I could only be more gracious in the other areas of my life I might think I will earn salvation one day. 

It's not a big deal. My wife and I do the same thing whether we're eating at a greasy-spoon diner or high-class place. I even tip delivery guys. I've had some "real" Christians who are "good stewards" chastise me and tell me that I should tip half of what I do and then give the other half of my tip to my church.  Sometimes I think that our "brother and sisters" are actually distant-cousins. 

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 AM ----------




Joshua said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > And tipping for good service is a gentlemanly action as well as a good witness of Christ. Too many folks leave a tract but no tip but make sure everyone sees them a' prayin'. And that is tragic.
> ...


 
I agree. My thing is we are not really spending that much time with the person to be able to discern whether the quality of service we are getting is a reflection of laziness, incompetence, or other issues. I have been followed into the parking lot more times than not by a person who provided bad service. I have gotten all kinds of replies explaining why the bad service and some have even tried to give me the money back. I've used these opportunities to tell them that I have judged that their service was not up to parr and not even acceptable but I have been forgiven much and have to forgive much. My gesture of forgiveness is putting my money where my mouth is and I have that liberty. This is not for everyone nor something I usually talk about and since this is internet forum I figured what's the harm.

Some people are much better judges of character than I. I have to pray just about every hour for God to put my cynicism in perspective and truly see people as the WLC Q143-145 tells me. God has blessed me and my wife with good jobs and a few extra dollars given to a waiter/waitress from time to time ain't that big a deal, especially with how many times we have been chased down in the parking lot and gotten to share an encouraging word. I have friends who are Christians ask me how I've shared the Gospel with someone at a restaurant...I tell em it's easy...they chase me down to ask what makes me different. 

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------




The Author of my Faith said:


> And it is usually the stingy customers that are the most demanding.


 
AMEN! I have a family member who will run a waiter/tress ragged and then put a penny on the table because she didn't like how the servers hair looked or if she wasn't given enough ice cubes in her water... Trifling!


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## Tripel (Apr 27, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > And it is usually the stingy customers that are the most demanding.
> ...


 
I have noticed the same. I have a coworker who is a very stingy tipper, but is also the most likely at our table to send food back or make some other demand. 
Only once have I sent food back, and I HATED doing it. But hey, it was undercooked fish and was inedible. I also don't make petty demands. I don't say this to toot my own horn. Frankly, the reason I am not a demanding customer has little to do with me being gracious--it's mostly about a fear of upsetting the person handling my food!


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## Andres (Apr 27, 2010)

Tripel said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> > The Author of my Faith said:
> ...



 Daniel, I have an uncle who is notorious for being a tough customer. He will always find something to complain about wherever we go. Nothing is ever good enough for him. Once he sent back an order 3 times! yes, 3 times! I told everyone that I was shocked he still ate it after it came back because you just know it was dropped on the floor or worse... In his defense, he does tip a normal 15-20%.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 27, 2010)

I tip only at restaurants and event then it is only for EXCEPTIONAL service. 

Why?

I'll tell you why - the tipping "business" is a scam. When I pay for an item, included in that price is the preparation and delivery of that item. Why do I have to pay more? And I am utterly unmoved by "well, the server needs the tips" well, then they should get a job where I'm not being asked to pay twice.

And if I'm paying for a service - like a haircut - why do I need to give them even more money than their price for that service?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of being excepted to pay twice, or to have to consider a tip a "hidden fee."


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## Tripel (Apr 27, 2010)

Ben,
I think you raise some good points about the system being flawed. It IS flawed. I agree that it would be a lot easier if the price was the price and that's it. I too find it frustrating that tips are expected, rather than just an expression of gratitude for exceptional services offered. 

BUT, and it's a big but, we can't change the flawed system. We're stuck with it. We can respond in several ways, but it seems to break down in into two primary responses: 1) Protest the system, and 2) Graciously participate.

To those who want to protest the system, I applaud your principle, but I think you should protest by not going to restaurants at all. If you're going to enter into a world where tips are expected, it's best that you do so with grace.


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## The Author of my Faith (Apr 27, 2010)

Ben,

I hope you never lose your job and have to wait tables or any of your children do not have to work in the service industry with people who have your attitude. Otherwise you will be eating government cheese!


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 27, 2010)

The Author of my Faith said:


> Otherwise you will be eating government cheese!


 
You say that as if government cheese is a bad thing!? It's actually one of the best things the government has. A few chunks of that in some ramen noodle soup with an egg or two added in is a feast!! I thought you knew?!?!


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 27, 2010)

The Author of my Faith said:


> I hope you never lose your job and have to wait tables...


 
I hope the same! You can believe me - if the Lord ever smote me such a smiting that I was reduced to waiting tables... believe you me, I'd be in sack cloth and ashes, mourning and lamenting my sin that brought about such a judgment.


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## Montanablue (Apr 27, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > I hope you never lose your job and have to wait tables...
> ...


 
I can't tell if you're joking. I hope so.


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## The Author of my Faith (Apr 27, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > I hope you never lose your job and have to wait tables...
> ...



Glad to see how highly you think of people in the service industry. I hope you are praying for them that they would be worthy of such an exalted position as yourself.


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## chbrooking (Apr 27, 2010)

James 1:9-10


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## christiana (Apr 27, 2010)

I've appreciated this thread and it has definitely raised the level of awareness of a problem to me! I will tip more, to the limit of my ability! I had absolutely no idea that anyone would be paid such a minimal amount for such hard work and think the minimum wage should be enforced, whether or not tips are given. Tipping was always given for special service appreciation in years past so I would think having a jar for all tips received by all servers would defeat that and discourage tipping rather than to be able to personally acknowledge good service with good tips!

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------




The Author of my Faith said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > The Author of my Faith said:
> ...


 
Oh my, now I can see how that would be a great benefit to you!! Would you also be unwilling to wash their feet?


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## jayce475 (Apr 28, 2010)

Woah big culture shock for me right here. Seems like it's pretty normal to tip in US and Canada. I generally don't tip in Singapore and Australia because usually nobody else does so in Singapore while the minimum wage is like 20 bucks per hour in Australia.


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## Sam Owen (Apr 28, 2010)

Tipping is hardly ever done in my country, but I think the balance is that the minimum wage for the jobs that DO get tipped in the US is proportionally higher here. I visited the States in 1999 and remember stressing about how much to tip because I was so unused to it, and didn't want to under-do it OR over do it.


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## AThornquist (Apr 28, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> The Author of my Faith said:
> 
> 
> > I hope you never lose your job and have to wait tables...
> ...


 
 Ben is always good at lighting a fire.


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## SemperEruditio (Apr 28, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > The Author of my Faith said:
> ...


 
Yeah...and he puts it out with gasoline. 

Never thought Ben would take a quote from Carrey in _Bruce Almighty_
_"Smite me, oh mighty Smiter."_


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## kvanlaan (Apr 28, 2010)

> If you are not going to tip you should eat at home. There is nothing worse than a stingy Christian. I have had the same experience as your sister. It has been my experience that many Christians are bad tippers, not all, but many. The waitstaff depends on tips and it is an insult and very disrespectful to short-change them. Their paycheck is like 3.00 an hour so they depend on this money for their livelyhood. It is like your boss at the end of the week throwing you some spare change for your hard work. If the service is bad because of the bad attitude of the waitress that is a different story but even then, as beleivers we should extend grace.



This is the attitude that puts me over the edge. "If you don't tip well, stay home." I tip 15% minimum even at a buffet, more at a sit-down place, but this attitude of "I delivered food to your table in whatever manner I saw fit, now you *must* pay me as well as paying for the food" is nuts. Good service = good tips. Bad service = bad or no tips. That's the mathematical equation in the service industry. If a server is so dependent on tips, then for Pete's sake act like it. Don't give poor service and expect a tip.

I work for a believer, but the grace he extends me if I am snarky to clients would be to sit me down and have a _very_ serious talk. Once. Then I'd be gone (and he's my own father!)

No one is saying that we should not tip for decent service. No one. But it is disrespectful to me, the paying client, to treat me like trash and expect anything but a stern warning.


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## AThornquist (Apr 28, 2010)

I completely agree, Kevin. 

With this type of attitude, I'm not sure how one could be consistent without paying a handful of people just because "their livelihood depends on it." For example, some restaurants have live, cheap entertainment that can sometimes be untalented. Should we encourage this weak performance to keep coming and causing our ears to bleed by giving them a generous tip? I'm not sure how those who are good at what they are doing will get the distinction they deserve if everyone gets the same little trophy. 
Or how about some of those exotic restaurants that have belly dancers and whatnot? If they expect tips, must I give it to them, even if their performance was practically an upright seizure? Their livelihood could depend on it . . .


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## Andres (Apr 28, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> For example, some restaurants have live, cheap entertainment that can sometimes be untalented. Should we encourage this weak performance to keep coming and causing our ears to bleed by giving them a generous tip?


 
brother, you need to stop eating at Chucky Cheese with those singing animals.


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## AThornquist (Apr 28, 2010)

Andres said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > For example, some restaurants have live, cheap entertainment that can sometimes be untalented. Should we encourage this weak performance to keep coming and causing our ears to bleed by giving them a generous tip?
> ...


 
Oh - you did _not_ just bash my rat Chucky. Aight someone needs to hold me down otherwise I'm gonna grab one of them $25 frisbee-sized pizzas and smash that cheese up in your grill. 


Maybe this cheap entertainment thing is unique to my area. I don't know. But this place is so stoned and artsy fartsy that there are "Donations Appreciated" instrumentalists in bars, Himalayan cafes, etc.


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## The Author of my Faith (May 2, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > If you are not going to tip you should eat at home. There is nothing worse than a stingy Christian. I have had the same experience as your sister. It has been my experience that many Christians are bad tippers, not all, but many. The waitstaff depends on tips and it is an insult and very disrespectful to short-change them. Their paycheck is like 3.00 an hour so they depend on this money for their livelyhood. It is like your boss at the end of the week throwing you some spare change for your hard work. If the service is bad because of the bad attitude of the waitress that is a different story but even then, as beleivers we should extend grace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kevin,

It is attitudes like yours that put me over the edge as well. Treat people the way they deserve! Thank God for Grace! I will choose to bless those that don't deserve it.

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------




AThornquist said:


> I completely agree, Kevin.
> 
> With this type of attitude, I'm not sure how one could be consistent without paying a handful of people just because "their livelihood depends on it." For example, some restaurants have live, cheap entertainment that can sometimes be untalented. Should we encourage this weak performance to keep coming and causing our ears to bleed by giving them a generous tip? I'm not sure how those who are good at what they are doing will get the distinction they deserve if everyone gets the same little trophy.
> Or how about some of those exotic restaurants that have belly dancers and whatnot? If they expect tips, must I give it to them, even if their performance was practically an upright seizure? Their livelihood could depend on it . . .



Then stay at home and eat if you dont want to tip.


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## kvanlaan (May 2, 2010)

> It is attitudes like yours that put me over the edge as well. Treat people the way they deserve! Thank God for Grace! I will choose to bless those that don't deserve it.



Steve, please present some rationale with your argument if you are not swayed by the wisdom in what others have said. We are paid wages based on performance in just about any industry. So are waitresses/waiters. If their performance does not merit a tip, they should not receive one. That is simple and rational. When their performance merits a tip, they should receive one. Again, simple and rational. I tip very well, when it is warranted. When it is not, I tip poorly. Again, rational. However, your argument is not rational.

Were my child to bring me a 'D' on a test when he has openly blown off studying for the entire week previous while knowing full well what he is putting on the line by his procrastination, I would not praise him for his lack of effort, I would castigate him for it. For me to do otherwise would be foolish and would be an abdication of my fatherly duties. 

Please show me the wisdom in praising someone for failing *willfully*. Otherwise you are merely advocating a spirit of irrational entitlement, which is already a plague on this continent.

Also, please tell me then why I would tip one server 15%, one 20%, and one 25%. Should they not all get a standard rate? No, they are tipped *according to performance* (just like every other job in the world!!!) Otherwise, your argument would suggest that you must always tip the same across the board, whether the service was decent or not. 



> It is attitudes like yours that put me over the edge as well. Treat people the way they deserve! Thank God for Grace! I will choose to bless those that don't deserve it.



Also, you do realize that you contradict yourself here, don't you?



> Then stay at home and eat if you don't want to tip.



This is not actually germane to the argument because it shows a complete lack of understanding in the relationship between the quality of services provided and payment for said services, which is the underpinning association in the concept of 'tips' altogether.


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## christiana (May 2, 2010)

Guess this might apply to tipping as well as our behavior:
“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:27-36


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