# Current struggles with prayer



## Pergamum (Dec 27, 2008)

Here is my struggle.

I have long been a dismisser of any religious practice that seemed too formal. 

People always seem to gravitate toward the ritual and not the relationship it seems. I feel more comfortable in church plants and places where the order of worship is not rigid and set and things are just beginning to gel. I like to see things done freely out of zeal rather than out of habit and am even leery of fixing these zealous practices to set times of the day, etc, or a set pattern.



One area that I have always been dismissive of is devotionals and also set times of prayer. 

Last I checked, devotional was an adjective, but somehow it has turned into a noun (as in "doing my devotionals") and has become a set religious exercise, which many people seem to count as something meritorious...”Did you do your devotionals today?” 

Also, prayer should be spontanous and not something you fix at certain hours (“oh, time to pray again..”) – especially here this practice seems so Islamic.



But,

Here’s my problem this past year. 

My free and zealous and spontanous practices have been forgotten sometimes. 

While I believe that we are to be devotional rather than do devotionals and we should always be going to the Word out of love, I have been going to the Word less and less out of zeal or love and more and more out of a need to teach others. Also, my prayers have contained less thanks and more petitions (my need list has grown and sometimes my prayers consist of “Thanks God, now here’s a laundry list.”). 

Also, due to high stress and short time sometimes, my prayers are done in the midst of doing other things, such as travelling, waiting, etc, and I have a hard time being patient enough to list the prayers of every believer and there families. Instead of praying for Bob, Susie, Earl, Jimmie, Jane and Tommy, I find myself always praying for the So-and-so family taken corporately..or the X tribe altogether (I.e., I am clumping the subjects in my prayers into major categories to cover more ground...”I pray for the church throughout the world, fellow missionaries and the work of the Gospel....”). Sometimes, I have simply prayed thusly, “Lord, thank you for your mercy, you know my needs. I pray also for all those who need it...” etc, very abbreviated. I have never been much for flowery words.

If I say my problem is a lack of zeal in prayer, then I am putting the value of my prayer on some sort of quality in myself or emotion or energy. I am zealous in all I do; I just am not real patient. Also, I perhaps I am too familiar with activities in the church.. I know familiarity breeds contempt as they say, and I certainly have no contempt for long prayers or bbile study, but that “special feeling” I had when I first believed is gone. 

For instance, this morning I read again the first chapter of James and prayed before and after and my prayers were basically, “Thanks God for who you are, thank you for your mercy to me and my family, help me understand this Word and apply it today, keep me and my family safe and help me to honor your name. Bless the work here and help us all. In your name, Amen.” All of about 15 seconds before and after. 

I thought about lengthening my prayer and trying for a minute or too. After I did my reading, I prayed again and I also remembered all my supporting churches back home and my home church as well. But, instead of praying for each by name, I simply added into my prayer, “Bless my supporting churches and the famailies in my home churches as well...especially the family of so-and-so who is having troubles right now.” That’s it, a total of maybe 1 minute. 

Throughout the day these "Minute prayers" will occur several times. I guess I shouldn't be trying to quantify my time length in prayers, but it is hard not to try to check one's self (and always find one's self wanting).




So, this is a list of my current struggles. Anyone else also struggle with this? What do you do about it? That post about rising early is starting to convict me that maybe I should make my times of prayer and reading more formal - at least until I get over this hump. 

What think ye?


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## TaylorOtwell (Dec 27, 2008)

I struggle with this too, brother. But, I'm afraid I will have to wait with you to see what counsel others may give, as I need their wisdom also. 

The Lord remembers that we are dust (Psalm 103).


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## PresbyDane (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks for sharing, what you write also convictes me.


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## Leslie (Dec 27, 2008)

You verbalized very well the very same struggles that I've had for a very long time. There have been glimmers of slightly longer prayers at times of intense difficulties and in times of decision, when I'd like to "hear from God" which of various alternative decisions to make. It will be good to follow this thread and learn how others deal with the problem.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 27, 2008)

Praise God that our hope does not rely on our consistency or eloquence!

Praise God for the conviction of the Holy Spirit to call us to our true love!

Praise God for the good work He gives us to point ourselves and others to His glory!

Praise God for the steadfast workers toiling in the mission field that are not just hearers of the Word, but doers!

Praise God that we and others can see evidence of their good work and glorify our God!


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## toddpedlar (Dec 27, 2008)

Perg -

I'm not sure I see the reasoning against set times for prayer; they are useful for discipline of the heart and mind, and by all means Scriptural. Certainly we are to be praying always - but having set times is neither Romanist nor Islamic. Daniel is said to have had set times of prayer (unless you think the reference was to the number of times he sent up 'minute prayers'. We have ample example of prayer in morning and evening, as well as times of meditation on the Word. 

Struggling with prayer time is certainly a common battle... but I would caution you in being overreactive to regular times of worship, and (though I don't see you doing it) being judgmental of those who do practice them and believe they have great value.

Todd


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## jambo (Dec 27, 2008)

I think it is a struggle we all have. We need to be disciplined in prayer and devotions yet doing the same thing a few days in a row becomes a habit rather than an act of worship. Using a prayer list to remember people and situations is helpful to the memory but it quickly becomes a shopping list.

I struggle too and some suggestions I have found helpful are:

1. Vary the PLACE where we read and pray. ie the bedroom, the living room, the garden, the river, even to go for a walk whilst praying etc.

2. Vary the POSTURE when praying. Sometimes stand, sometimes sit, sometimes lift your eyes towards heaven and stretch out your arms, sometimes kneel (but beware-I invariably I fall asleep when I kneel)

3. Instead of praying down a list, pray through the scriptures. Think of the passage you have just read and use it as a pattern when you pray for people. I am often struck reading the prayers of Paul in the NT. He did not ask to pray for blessing on his trip to Athens or to pray for the Roman soldier he was chained to, but for the Ephesian Christians for example he prayed that God would give them the Spirit of wisdom and revelation that they might know God better and that the eyes of their hearts may be enlightened so they would know the hope to which God called them etc. If we are praying for Jimmy we could use passages like Eph 1.17ff, or a Psalm we may be reading and use that as a pattern for our praying. My church has a membership of 42 consisting of about 18 couples and 6 single people. I do not pray for everybody every day but I would pray for one family a day. I have chosen a verse(s) for each of them and when I pray for individuals I keep the verse I have for them as a focus for prayer when I think of them. For example for one couple I pray Col 1.10 for them that they may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. For another family I may pray 1 Cor 12.9 that in their weaknesses and struggles they would know the sufficiency of God's grace etc This cause me to think before speaking rather than just mechanically pray to bless so and so.

There are some items you need to pray for daily and others say weekly. You may 
pray for home church daily bit other supporting churches do you need to pray for them daily too? 

Reading biographies of past saints can be a challenge about can be depressing to. There is no point beating yourslef up because you do not get up at three in the morning to pray just because Calvin did. Just because saints in a bygone day could pray for 3 hrs at a time does not mean we have to emulate them. Be challenged, be rebuked by all means but be realistic too. Spend a week praying for just 5 minutes at a time, then the following week increase it to 10 minutes and so on until you find your level. Remember prayer is not just intercession; it is worhsip, thanksgiving and confession too

Be careful the way you read the bible. It is wrong to read it for theological arguments to bash the Jehovah's Witnesses with. It is wrong to read the bible because you need to get a few thoughts together for Sunday's sermon. We read the bible to receive instruction and training in righteousness, to have our hearts warmed and to cause our minds to realise afresh the golory and the wonder of our great God, our loving Saviour and the all powerful Holy Spirit which in turn leads us onto worship. 

There is no secret to be discovered that once you find it will unlock your devotional life forever. But like all aspects of of our Christian lives, we need to pause and consider what we are about to do.


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## Pergamum (Dec 27, 2008)

Good point about Daniel.

Yes, I am over-reactionary when it comes to formalism. I am starting to institute more formalism for a time now since being guided by my own zeal is not cutting it currently.


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## jambo (Dec 27, 2008)

I meant to include this quote form Thomas Brooks:

Prayer is the only means to supply all defects; prayer gets all, and makes up for the loss of all.

It is not... 
the length—but the strength of prayer; 
the labour of the lip—but the travail of the heart
—which prevails with God. 

It is not . . .
the arithmetic of our prayers—how many they are; nor
the rhetoric of our prayers—how eloquent they are; nor 
the geometry of our prayers—how long they are; nor 
the music of our prayers—how sweet they are; nor 
the logic of our prayers—how methodical they are
—which will prevail with God. 

It is only fervency in prayer, which will make a man prevalent with God. Fervent prayer hits the mark, and pierces the walls of heaven! Ps 118.5 I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, [and set me] in a large place
(Thomas Brooks, A Word in Season to Suffering Saints)


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## Ex Nihilo (Dec 27, 2008)

I have always struggled with prayer, and I've found great blessing recently praying through the Lord's Prayer and then using the parts of the Prayer to compose longer prayers, fitting my concerns into each phrase and thus understanding how my concerns relate to the Lord's concerns. I agree that it would be wrong to pray _only_ pre-written prayers, but it helps me very much to have a model when composing -- and of course the Lord's Prayer is the best model! But I also like to use other passages of scripture, sometimes linking them to parts of the Lord's Prayer. I like set times for prayer, too, though I am terrible at them. I am naturally very unscheduled, so it seems right to me to consciously focus, especially first thing in the morning.

I am not very good at any of this, so I don't know if this advice is correct, but I feel that prayer is an area where God has helped me grow just in the last month or so.


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## TaylorOtwell (Dec 27, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> I have always struggled with prayer, and I've found great blessing recently praying through the Lord's Prayer and then using the parts of the Prayer to compose longer prayers, fitting my concerns into each phrase and thus understanding how my concerns relate to the Lord's concerns.



I do the same. A PCA pastor who counseled me during my time at college encouraged me towards praying like this, as well as praying Psalm 23. "Lord, guide your people in the paths of righteousness for your name's sake, etc."

I also found the section of the Larger Catechism dealing with prayer to be very helpful, as it gives an explanation of each petition of the Lord's prayer.

*Edit* 

The PCA pastor I mentioned also counseled me to pray the Scriptures, which I found to be extremely beneficial.

So, you may also find Ken Boa's _Handbook to Prayer_ helpful. Each day (I believe there are 3 months worth of prayers) includes prayers of adoration, confession, renewal, petition, intercession, affirmation, thanksgiving, and closing prayers. All of the prayers are *entirely Scripture*. However, the NIV is the text.

Leatherbound: https://www.kenboa.org/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=129

Paperback: http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...d=141593&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=covers


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## Ex Nihilo (Dec 27, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> I also found the section of the Larger Catechism dealing with prayer to be very helpful, as it gives an explanation of each petition of the Lord's prayer.



Yes, the Larger Catechism section is really excellent. I really can't even express how much of a blessing it has been to me to follow the Lord's Prayer, and the Larger Catechism's explanations have helped _so_ much.


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## TaylorOtwell (Dec 27, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> That post about rising early is starting to convict me that maybe I should make my times of prayer and reading more formal - at least until I get over this hump.
> 
> What think ye?



Pergamum, you have much more wisdom than me, as I have only been a believer for about three years, but I will offer some insight I have gained from observing my own life and personality.

It seems to me that to do what you suggest would be to try and sanctify yourself in order to enjoy the grace of God more deeply. However, I have often found this leads me back to where I started. 

Instead, I *try* to do the opposite. Think deeply about the deep riches of the gospel, and let that drive your sanctification and your prayers. I understand this is easier said than done, however, try meditating on the first answer in the Heidelberg Catechism and the Scriptural truths it is teaching. I have found that it often renews my appreciation of God's grace.


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## Pergamum (Dec 27, 2008)

jambo said:


> I meant to include this quote form Thomas Brooks:
> 
> Prayer is the only means to supply all defects; prayer gets all, and makes up for the loss of all.
> 
> ...





Define that term "fervency"? How does it not make our prayers dependant upon our feelings then?


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## christiana (Dec 27, 2008)

No doubt prayer is work and a very real challenge! I think I received great benefit from John Bunyan's 'Prayer'. It definitely gives answers and brings one to a great awareness of what is going on when we pray! Encouraging words from great old prayer warriors has always been helpful to many! Our hearts must first be in tune with His and we must harbor no sin in our heart or life. Humility is such a great key and so difficult to come by! Pondering the psalms and getting a good look at our sin brings us to our knees, humbly seeking His mercy!
You are in my prayers, that He will bring you to new awareness of communicating with Him!

http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Discourse.Touching.Prayer/index.html


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## jambo (Dec 27, 2008)

Pergamum; said:


> Define that term "fervency"? How does it not make our prayers dependant upon our feelings then?


 
Fervency I would take to be the earnest desire for something; thus in prayer you are not just praying words without thought but words which come from the depths of the heart. 

I think it can be seen in Paul's words of Rom 12.1 where he talks about his hearts desire and his prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation. His hearts desire was evidenced by his prayer for Israel and his labour in seeking to proclaim Christ to both Jew and Gentile.

If I am praying for my neighbours salvation, there is no point praying unless we are seeking to witness to them. Thus our praying is matched by our desires and actions.

It was Samuel Rutherford who said 'Cold prayers always freeze before they reach heaven' whilst Adolphe Monod said 'Prayer is the easiest work of all but the prayer of faith is the hardest work of all' 

A person can pray the most theologically sound prayer, it may be very eloquent but if it does not correspond with the desire of the heart then it is vain. By desire I do not mean that which we want, but the desire for the honour and glory of God.

There are prayers and there is praying. Christians do not say prayers, they actually pray. John Trapp made the comment that he 'prayed until he had prayed' 

Prayer may be worship, adoration thanksgiving etc but it is also hard work and a real labour.


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## Ex Nihilo (Dec 27, 2008)

jambo said:


> A person can pray the most theologically sound prayer, it may be very eloquent but *if it does not correspond with the desire of the heart *then it is vain. By desire I do not mean that which we want, but the desire for the honour and glory of God.



I am not saying I disagree entirely, but it seems to me that God uses our prayers to mold our desires. That is, we should pray for his glory even before we desire it as much as we ought, and in our bringing the prayer before God, he brings our hearts into line with what we are saying. And this, to me, is the great benefit of model prayers.


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## jwithnell (Dec 27, 2008)

I think I understand your struggle, and certainly agree that having a spiritual "checklist" can backfire.

You mentioned stress -- are you at a particularly stressful time in life; new baby, new job, etc.? Last summer, after being on the fringes of a major wildland fire accident that took a number of lives, I found it took me months to get my Bible study and prayer back on track. It seems that there are times in our lives when we "fill up" and there are other times that we have to feed off that largess. 

To some extent we see that in Christ's life when he lived at the center of a virtual storm as he was amidst his disciples and the crowds, then he'd take time to go into the wilderness or off by himself somehow. The main question then becomes what you choose to do when you do have the opportunity to go off alone with God.


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## Wannabee (Dec 27, 2008)

Years ago I as convicted over my lack of prayer and began praying earnestly. It didn't happen overnight though. At first my prayers began with a plea to God to help me pray. I would ask Him to guide me in my prayer and help me grow in prayer. This often helped, but seemed a bit inconsistent at times. Obviously that was because I was inconsistent. Then I set a time each day to pray. It became so regular that I could tell days that I had failed to commune with my Father. I'd yearn for the day to end so I could have that sweet time with Him. During this time in my life I grew in my love for Christ like no other time in my life. I would rise up, read through a passage devotionally, and prayerfully, and then spend some time in concentrated prayer. After about an hour to hour and a half I would reluctantly go on to the duties of the day. But I always anticipated rising in the morning.
Then life got busy. Seminary ripped at my time schedule. I justified setting concentrated time with the Lord aside because I was studying God's Word all the time. But the closeness faded. And the security of resting in Christ diminished as well. It's not that my confidence in Christ wavered. I just didn't rest in Him in such a way that I felt relatively bomb proof no matter what was happening in my life. By the end of seminary I had so much slipped away from my active dependence on God that I was leaning on my own strength. God soon showed me that my pride was vain. 
Getting back into an active dependence upon God since then has been a challenge. It seems that it's harder to relearn certain habits than it is to learn them in the first place.

Stuart, you blessed me with your comments and quote. May God work in us to will and to do in our prayer lives in such a way that our dependence upon Him would be complete, and we would rest in His sweet sovereign and loving embrace where none can touch us.


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## lynnie (Dec 27, 2008)

I have a few places where I can walk and talk out loud (a country dirt road, a rural road, a park) and I really enjoy my prayer walks. It helps me personally to talk out loud and I confess sins I am aware of and then make petitions. Not often but at time I find myself singing something. My husband also has had many of his best prayer times walking.

I have had some wonderful experiences of having the Holy Spirit burden my heart to pray for somebody and I don't know why, but later I find out that they were in a great trial. It happened recently when I called a couple I had not seen in a year in another state and told them I had felt strongly led to pray for them for a few days. It turned out that the wife had just gotten out of the hospital (a critical infection.) One time I called a woman and said that I had her on my heart all day and was praying for her and was she OK, and her daughter had been in a car crash that day and broken her skull ( girl was actually OK but Mom was the one in bad emotional shape, ha).

This is certainly not constant for me but has happened regularly, so in addition to my lists I ask the Holy Spirit to lead me and I try to be open to those prayer concerns when people come to mind. It adds a certain spice to prayer.


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## turmeric (Dec 27, 2008)

Could someone explain to me how it was that people prayed for hours? My mom used to read to me about people during the Welsh Revival who prayed almost constantly. My dad used to say; "I just want more of Jesus!" You're going to think I'm unregenerate, but what on earth did that mean? How did they do it? Luther is always held up as an example b/c he said when he was busy, he _had_ to pray more. My mom still spends hours reading and marking her Bible and listening to her favorite teachers on tape. _Hours!_ It doesn't seem always to make one more spiritual, but it bugs me that I'm not up for doing it this much. What _is _wrong with me?


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## Leslie (Dec 28, 2008)

turmeric said:


> Could someone explain to me how it was that people prayed for hours? My mom used to read to me about people during the Welsh Revival who prayed almost constantly. My dad used to say; "I just want more of Jesus!" You're going to think I'm unregenerate, but what on earth did that mean? How did they do it? Luther is always held up as an example b/c he said when he was busy, he _had_ to pray more. My mom still spends hours reading and marking her Bible and listening to her favorite teachers on tape. _Hours!_ It doesn't seem always to make one more spiritual, but it bugs me that I'm not up for doing it this much. What _is _wrong with me?



Thanks for articulating it so well. This has also been my question and that for years!! A possibly related question is concerning statements that came up on earlier posts on this thread: praying scripture. If one recites long passages of scripture in prayer, that could take a lot of time. But it doesn't make sense. God already knows what He wrote and also knows that I know (or don't know) it.


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## Ex Nihilo (Dec 28, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Thanks for articulating it so well. This has also been my question and that for years!! A possibly related question is concerning statements that came up on earlier posts on this thread: praying scripture. If one recites long passages of scripture in prayer, that could take a lot of time. But it doesn't make sense. *God already knows what He wrote and also knows that I know (or don't know) it.*



Isn't this true of anything we might say in prayer?


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## Leslie (Dec 28, 2008)

turmeric said:


> Could someone explain to me how it was that people prayed for hours? My mom used to read to me about people during the Welsh Revival who prayed almost constantly. My dad used to say; "I just want more of Jesus!" You're going to think I'm unregenerate, but what on earth did that mean? How did they do it? Luther is always held up as an example b/c he said when he was busy, he _had_ to pray more. My mom still spends hours reading and marking her Bible and listening to her favorite teachers on tape. _Hours!_ It doesn't seem always to make one more spiritual, but it bugs me that I'm not up for doing it this much. What _is _wrong with me?



Thanks for articulating it so well. This has also been my question and that for years!! A possibly related question is concerning statements that came up on earlier posts on this thread: praying scripture. If one recites long passages of scripture in prayer, that could take a lot of time. But it doesn't make sense. God already knows what He wrote and also knows that I know (or don't know) it.


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## Kevin (Dec 28, 2008)

Thank you, brother. That was a "word in due season".


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## Robin (Dec 28, 2008)

Dear Pergamum & fellow PBers,

Here's a very helpful book to gear your thinking after one of the great Reformers:

Amazon.com: John Calvin, Of Prayer: A Perpetual Exercise of Faith (Forgotten Books): John Calvin: Books

Another volume:

"John Calvin, "On Prayer, Conversations with God" Westminster John Knox Press 2006

Small books - big ideas. Let's remember Calvin was a compassionate pastor with a heart to teach people to pray. 

May God edify,


Robin


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## Pergamum (Dec 28, 2008)

lynnie said:


> I have a few places where I can walk and talk out loud (a country dirt road, a rural road, a park) and I really enjoy my prayer walks. It helps me personally to talk out loud and I confess sins I am aware of and then make petitions. Not often but at time I find myself singing something. My husband also has had many of his best prayer times walking.
> 
> I have had some wonderful experiences of having the Holy Spirit burden my heart to pray for somebody and I don't know why, but later I find out that they were in a great trial. It happened recently when I called a couple I had not seen in a year in another state and told them I had felt strongly led to pray for them for a few days. It turned out that the wife had just gotten out of the hospital (a critical infection.) One time I called a woman and said that I had her on my heart all day and was praying for her and was she OK, and her daughter had been in a car crash that day and broken her skull ( girl was actually OK but Mom was the one in bad emotional shape, ha).
> 
> This is certainly not constant for me but has happened regularly, so in addition to my lists I ask the Holy Spirit to lead me and I try to be open to those prayer concerns when people come to mind. It adds a certain spice to prayer.




I have found a few places and I use these places to pray. I also like to walk.


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## timmopussycat (Dec 28, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> > I meant to include this quote form Thomas Brooks:
> ...



Fervency=the outward expression of the truly travailing heart sincerely, sensibly, affectionately pouring itself out to "God, through Christ, in the strength and assistance of the Holy Spirit, for such things as God hath promised, or according to the Word, for the good of the church, with submission, in faith, to the will of God." (Adapting Bunyan's definition in A Discourse Touching Prayer)

Our prayers are not dependent on their fervency so much as on the Spirit's help. I too have been recently convicted of prayerlessness and part of repenting for me has been confessing my lack of seeking the Spirit's aid in this area in the past and praying for it in the future.


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## Rangerus (Jan 3, 2009)

jambo said:


> I think it is a struggle we all have. We need to be disciplined in prayer and devotions yet doing the same thing a few days in a row becomes a habit rather than an act of worship. Using a prayer list to remember people and situations is helpful to the memory but it quickly becomes a shopping list.
> 
> I struggle too and some suggestions I have found helpful are:
> 
> ...



Thank you Jambo for articulating this. Until now, I thought my AD&D was the problem. I too find that variety is the spice of (prayer) life.


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