# More Gobbledygook From Covenant Seminary?



## kevin.carroll (Nov 22, 2010)

Someone pressed into my hands Sunday morning a copy of Meyers' _The Lord's Service_. I must admit it made me feel a bit unclean. Even if Meyers weren't an allegedly wild-eyed promoter of the Federal Vision, the premise of the book strikes me as all wrong.

Covenant Renewal seems to imply a defect in the Covenant that Christ has kept. We don't need to renew anything. Christ perfectly fulfilled all of the demands of the Covenant and took upon himself all of our curses for failing to do so. So what's to renew?

Following a sacrificial scheme in worship makes me feel similarly oogy. To begin with, we don't know for sure what order all of the OT sacrifices were presented in, and even if we did, those things have been fulfilled in Christ and no longer apply.

Meyers has close links with Coventant. Recently I have been speaking with Covenant types that have used words about worship that I find equally unsettling. Words like, "transformational worship" and "gospel progression" in worship.

God transforms us by use of the means of grace, to be sure, but to make transformation a human goal of worship seems to be fast tracking us whatever is deemed the latest, hippest, seeker-relevant fad. "Gospel progression" sounds a bit more interesting to me, but it also strikes me as trying to force a form onto liturgy that the Bible does not.

So...is this just more gobbledygook coming out of Covenant? Am I missing something? Or, perhaps, am I just being paranoid?

For charity's sake, I will ignore the parts of the book that seem to long that we were all a bunch of high-church paedo-communionists.

BTW, he spends a great deal of time demolishing Frame, which I grudgingly had to approve of.


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## Wayne (Nov 22, 2010)

I am certainly open to correction, but to my understanding, this "Covenant Renewal Worship" that TE Meyers is advocating comes not out of Covenant Seminary but instead out of Tyler, Texas and was originally authored by Jim Jordan and Ray Sutton. Sutton's name appears on a series of newsletters published under the Covenant Renewal title [1987-1993], but elsewhere Jordan has claimed ownership of the root concept.

[Note: from The Church of the Holy Communion , "The Rt. Reverend Ray R. Sutton, Ph.D., currently serves as Bishop Coadjutor in the Diocese of Mid-America of the Reformed Episcopal Church and is Rector of the Church of the Holy Communion."]

See Gary North's ICE "Free Books" web site for links to those newsletters. [FreeBooks from the Institute for Christian Economics - the link is over on the left]

For the history of the matter, it could be profitable if someone were to compare the Sutton material with the content of the Meyers book. Is there in fact a direct connection? Does the latter mirror the content of the former? What, if any, progression of the concept is evident?


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## Kevin (Nov 22, 2010)

I think that you are being paranoid.


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## Phil D. (Nov 22, 2010)

Rev. Carroll, I think you probably have good spiritual instincts and Gobbledygook radar.


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## py3ak (Nov 22, 2010)

There is a good previous thread on the matter that has some good material:

Mr. Winzer's remarks on covenant renewal.

T.E. Wilder brilliantly shows the objectionable roots of the matter.


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## Romans922 (Nov 22, 2010)

Just for the record. Jeff Meyers is not Covenant Seminary. However, Meyers has a profound impact on some of the students of CTS. So what you see is men coming out of seminary, impacted by Meyers, who are his 'disciples'. 

Kevin, you have good gobbledygook radar. I know you. But this isn't CTS, it is Meyers, and FVists.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 22, 2010)

What I would like to know is if there is a Gobbledygook Radar App available for my iPod Touch. Sounds quite useful.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Nov 22, 2010)

Kevin, 
Your incendiary language and incorrect assertions aside... I am not that familiar with Meyer's book- I don't own a copy and it's not on the seminary reading list- but can you tell me what you understand by covenant renewal worship? How does Meyers differ from the worship services at your own church? You have a logical progression of the gospel in your own worship service- approaching God/service of entrance in which the call to worship is given, praise is sung to God, prayer of invocation/adoration is offered to God. Then there is the call to confession, corporate confession of sin followed by the declaration of pardon and response of praise. Then there is the response of intercessory prayer, giving of tithes and offerings. The service of the Word follows where we are fed by God and then there is the close of corporate worship and dismissal to serve God in the world. I assume that from time to time you recite the creed.
Seems like an adaptation of Calvin's liturgy.
As I say I can't interact with the Meyer book. Would it make you feel less unclean to know that in _A Better Way _Michael Horton more or less advocates the same thing? It was from reading Horton that I became persuaded of a more structured liturgical approach to worship and weekly communion.


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## Kevin (Nov 22, 2010)

Am I the only one that finds the OP in very poor taste? 

Why does a dissagreement with a brother elder over the order of worship need to degenerate into a slur against our denominational seminary? If the issue was EP & not Covenant Renewal worship I wonder if the thread would even be allowed to continue with that level of discourse.


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## VictorBravo (Nov 22, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Am I the only one that finds the OP in very poor taste?
> 
> Why does a dissagreement with a brother elder over the order of worship need to degenerate into a slur against our denominational seminary? If the issue was EP & not Covenant Renewal worship I wonder if the thread would even be allowed to continue with that level of discourse.


 
I'm closing the thread, but I also remind you that there is a little button (the exclamation symbol) for reporting posts--it works better at getting a moderator's notice than equally argumentative comments that may pass notice.


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