# Seminary Accreditation?



## N. Eshelman

I was reading Dr. Clark's 3 posts on seminaries from the Heidelblog (linked from another thread about paying for seminary education) and I was struck by this statement: 



> Students considering an unaccredited school should think carefully about whether there is a legitimate reason for a school not being accredited or whether a school lacks a real accreditation (i.e. one recognized by the Department of Education) because it is simply a poor school and thus, likely, a waste of money. There are more than a few home-made seminaries, which are unable to provide the necessary education, which lack a qualified faculty, which lack the necessary library (and other) resources, that are all too ready to take your money and give you a degree. Would you attend medical school in someone’s basement? Would you trust your health to a physician trained at such a school? Why we should entrust the care of our congregations to pastors trained at home-made seminary? Consistories/sessions, classes/presbyteries and other bodies should consider why should we are sometimes willing to accept lower standards in our seminaries than we would for medical schools.



Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited? The only two seminaries that I am intimately familiar with are Puritan Seminary and Reformed Presbyterian Seminary. Puritan is accredited by ATS and the State of Michigan and RP is accredited by ATS and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 

Is it common in Reformed circles to have UNACCREDITED seminaries?


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## R. Scott Clark

Nathan,

This isn't a slam at PRTS but I don't see them listed on the ATS site:

The Association of Theological Schools

There are a few unaccredited Reformed seminaries in N. America.


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## DMcFadden

According to their website, PRTS is ARTS accredited:



> Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been fully accredited by the Association of Reformed Theological Seminaries (ARTS), an organization of about ten North American seminaries which adhere to either the Three Forms of Unity or the Westminster Standards.



They are approved by the state of Michigan to grant degrees. This is different from accreditation. Schools that lack accreditation often advertise their permission to grant degrees. The standard secular accreditation agencies are the six regional bodies. Michigan schools would be accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. The typical theological agency is the ATS:



> The State of Michigan has granted PRTS a degree-granting license and has approved all of our current degree offerings.



The following schools are currently ARTS accredited:



> Birmingham Theological Seminary - Birmingham, Alabama
> FAREL Reformed Theological Seminary - Montréal, Quebec, Canada
> Geneva Reformed Seminary - Greenville, South Carolina
> Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary - Greenville, South Carolina
> New Geneva Theological Seminary - Colorado Springs, Colorado
> Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary - Grand Rapids, Michigan
> Sangre de Cristo Seminary - Westcliffe, Colorado
> Western Reformed Seminary - Tacoma, Washington



Frankly, having gone to a fully accredited and highly regarded seminary, I would trade it ANY day for the privilege of attending either PRTS or Greenville. What fool would challenge the academic quality of either one? A four year preparation for pastoral ministry (PRTS) with people like Beeke or an opportunity to study under Joey Pipa or George Knight?

Dr. Clark is correct about the problem of attending a non-accredited school if you intend on a teaching ministry or graduate work at a prestige university. However, it is difficult to imagine a Reformed school discriminating against a PRTS or Greenville grad.

And, incidentally, both PRTS and Greenville are ridiculously affordable compared to other schools.

Personal Opinion by a Baptist Alert! Frankly, I have often thought that there is a streak in_* some*_ Reformed circles that seems to go beyond a desire for quality to one of elitism. Would a Harvard degree be more "prestigious" than PRTS or Greenville? SURE! But, in a secular value system a Harvard or Yale degree would be more impressive than one from RTS, WTS, WSCAL, or just about any place with orthodox theology. Frankly, based on my observations of PRTS grads, I would take just about any of them over a Harvard grad any day.


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## reformedminister

I have a degree from an accredited seminary. However, there are some men called by God and have families, who enter the ministry later in life. These men have experience and wisdom that many young ministers lack coming fresh out of Seminary. I wonder what Christ thinks about some of our attitudes? Peter was uneducated in schools, John Calvin wasn't an ordained minister, C. H. Spurgeon didn't go to college, and Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones had his degree from a medical school but had no formal theological education. These men have done more for the Christian Church than any of us could ever think about. In my current situation, at almost forty with a family, I wouldn't think twice about getting a degree from somewhere like Whitefield Theological Seminary if I needed to. All too often, man tries to get in the way of God's work. I am glad for my "professional degree" but I have learned more in my study than any Seminary could teach me. I am still learning. All too often, seminaries "produce" trained clergy who lack the discipline to continue in their studies. Theological training is an ongoing thing.


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## yeutter

I like the idea of having seminaries that teach men how to be scholar teachers. Does membership in the Association of Theological Schools or the Association of Reformed Theological Seminaries guarantee that such training will occur?
One of the advantages of accreditation would be the promotion of peer reviewed scholarship. How does accreditation by a board that also gives accreditation to Seminaries like Garrett or Louisville promote peer review?

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------

I note that neither the seminary of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod nor Bethany Evangelical Lutheran Seminary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod are accredited by ATS.

---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

Maybe we need a broad based Reformation Accreditation Board whose membership would be composed of the conservative Lutheran and Reformed/Presbyterian Schools.

---------- Post added at 09:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------




DMcFadden said:


> Personal Opinion by a Baptist Alert! Frankly, I have often thought that there is a streak in_* some*_ Reformed circles that seems to go beyond a desire for quality to one of elitism. Would a Harvard degree be more "prestigious" than PRTS or Greenville? SURE! But, in a secular value system a Harvard or Yale degree would be more impressive than one from RTS, WTS, WSCAL, or just about any place with orthodox theology. Frankly, based on my observations of PRTS grads, I would take just about any of them over a Harvard grad any day.


 
This reminds me of William F. Buckley Jr. remark about Harold O. J. Brown, "Three degrees from Harvard and still a Christian!"

---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------




nleshelman said:


> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited? The only two seminaries that I am intimately familiar with are Puritan Seminary and Reformed Presbyterian Seminary. Puritan is accredited by ATS and the State of Michigan and RP is accredited by ATS and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
> 
> Is it common in Reformed circles to have UNACCREDITED seminaries?


Canadian Reformed and Protestant Reformed are two reformed schools that are not accredited by either ATS and ARTS.


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## wbmccarty

In addition to the issue of unaccredited schools, any number of seminaries, perhaps even some self-styled Reformed seminaries, have bogus or ineffective accreditation. If one believes that accreditation is important, then it's necessary to look beyond the mere fact of accreditation and consider the reputation of the accrediting agency. One way to do so is to determine what other schools or seminaries, if any, have submitted to accreditation by the accrediting agency in question.

To be explicit, I don't intend by these remarks to comment directly on the potential importance to a seminary student of the accreditation or non-accreditation of the seminary. That is a more complex issue that, in my opinion, depends at least in some part on the goals and means of a prospective seminary student. I merely intend to point out that some formally accredited seminaries may, for practical purposes, be considered to be unaccredited. So, in my opinion, the issue should not be one of accreditation but rather one of the quality of accreditation.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

This is an excellent thread.


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## kjat32

How does an uninformed potential student judge the level of accreditation? What is the difference between ATS and ARTS? We looked at Western Reformed but decided against it partially because of a lack of accrediatation...although they are ARTS. We really had no clue what means what. If you're looking for a degree that will be recognized by potential employers (outside of your own denomination) what really should you look for?


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## DMcFadden

When someone says that they are "approved" to grant degrees, they are indicating that they have satisfied the basic requirements of their state. Some states even offer religious exemptions that make it easier! Approved is not the same as accredited.

The "standard" secular standard of accreditation is by one of the six "regional" accreditation bodies. These bodies have reciprocity agreements and a degree from an institution affiliated with one of them means that they have been evaluated and granted accreditation. Your degree is "accredited" throughout the U.S.

Several professional bodies have their own separate accreditation. For example, some business schools are "accredited" because they are part of an institution regionally accredited. Others also have AACSB - The Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business or AMBA - The Association of MBAs accreditation. The professional body most widely recognized for theological education is the ATS.

The ATS accredits 250 graduate theological schools in the U.S. and Canada (The Association of Theological Schools). Good news = it is the "standard." Bad news = pretty much EVERY heretical den of apostasy is ATS accredited too along with most of the orthodox ones.

The ARTS accreditation is an attempt to provide a confessionally based alternative to ATS accreditation. PRTS grads shoulde not have problems going anywhere they want to go. However, if your goal is to get a Yale PhD, you might want to stick to the ATS accredited schools.

For ministry preparation, however, some of those ARTS schools look pretty impressive to me. I would love to get a "do over" and go to PRTS.

Here are the six regional accreditation bodies:
*New England Association of Schools and Colleges (NEASC)*
Accredits schools in Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. 

*North Central Association Commission on Accreditation and School Improvement(NCA)*
Accredits schools in Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Navajo Nation, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

*Middle States Association of Schools and Colleges (MSA)*
Accredits schools in Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Central America, Europe, and the Middle East. 

*Southern Association of Schools and Colleges (SACS)*
Accredits schools in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Latin America. 

*Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC)*
Accredits schools in California, Hawaii, Guam, American Samoa, Palau, Micronesia, Northern Marianas, Marshall Islands, and other Australasian locations.

*Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges (NWCCU)*
Accredits schools in Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, and Washington.


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## markkoller

The accreditation that Dr. Clark speaks of is specifically that which is offered by our government (The United States Department of Education). He insists that a school is not worthy unless this organization places its stamp upon the school in question. As much as I value Dr. Clark's gifts and his written work, the desire to submit the work of training Christ's ministers to the government of the United States is not really worthy of a response. *We do not need the government to determine the standards for our seminaries. *It cannot be stated any clearer than that. The church alone gives legitimacy to those who would train her ministers.

_WCF. CHAPTER XXV. Of the Church.

III. Unto this catholic and visible Church, Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world; and doth by his own presence and Spirit, according to his promise, make them effectual thereunto.

CHAPTER XXIII. Of the Civil Magistrate.

III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God._


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## KMK

Dr. Clark asks a good question: Is there any good reason for a school NOT to be accredited? Why isn't Greenville accredited? Does it cost a great deal of money? Is the school required to take the mark of the beast? What is the reason?

Another question: Why don't unaccredited schools just come right out and let you know they are unaccredited? Why do they hide the fact back on page 107 of the course catalog? It seems more than a little disingenuous to me.


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## smhbbag

I think the most underestimated factor in the process of calling a qualified minister is the examination by the congregation/presbytery.

Whether the candidate comes from WTS or Billy Bob's Unaccredited Seminary, the congregation and the presbytery should assume _nothing_ about the quality of his education, and his preparation in the academic side of pastoral skills. The cost is just too high. WTS and many other reformed seminaries deserve every bit of their lofty reputations - I am not disputing that. But, ultimately, the local authority of the church is responsible to God and their members for the quality of the ministers they call.

That level of accountability requires much more than a box to be checked based on a trusted seminary name. Or, conversely, they must not discard a candidate based on the lack of that brand name in the seminary.

Presbyterians have a much stronger process for testing candidates than Baptists do...by far. But I think both undervalue oral and written examinations.

I'll put it this way - there are Harvard graduates in accounting who may not pass the CPA, and there are people with much less, or zero, formal education in the subject who can pass it with a little prep time. If I'm an employer, that test is a much better measure of an applicant's knowledge than anything in the "Education" portion of a resume.

You can test the quality of someone's _years_ of education in a remarkably short amount of time. This is why the whole question of unaccredited vs. accredited seminaries rings hollow to me. A local congregation or presbytery can probe every aspect of a candidate's knowledge quite well in the matter of a few hours.

I love the pastoral quiz on apuritansmind - Another Pastoral Quiz . 

If a person can orally ace this quiz in front of a committee over the course of a day or two, with a few more ethics, apologetics, and general theology questions thrown in, then that means more than _any_ name or degree type written on a piece of paper. I would justifiably be biased in my consideration toward those with laudable academic credentials, but the proof is in the pudding.

I'm highly convinced that _only_ this kind of rigorous examination of a candidate's entire theological education and personal viewpoints is sufficient to ensure properly trained ministers. An accounting degree means little or nothing without an objective test given by someone outside of his institution. No accreditation accomplishes that - only the local church authority can determine that with each individual candidate.

I've seen many good men, whom I trust and sit under, be installed as elders and pastors with little more than verifying their education and their agreement with a confession. We must require far more.


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## DMcFadden

KMK said:


> Dr. Clark asks a good question: Is there any good reason for a school NOT to be accredited? Why isn't Greenville accredited? Does it cost a great deal of money? Is the school required to take the mark of the beast? What is the reason?
> 
> Another question: Why don't unaccredited schools just come right out and let you know they are unaccredited? Why do they hide the fact back on page 107 of the course catalog? It seems more than a little disingenuous to me.


 
Dr. Clark would have a more authoritative answer. But, since he doesn't seem to be around tonight . . . here goes. Accreditation is expensive and requires a variety of things that can be expensive. Size of library, diversity of faculty, cash reserves on hand, competitive salaries for faculty, various corporate policies and commitments (e.g., anti discrimination, corporate compliance, etc.), a very onerous self-examination followed by a site visit, etc. Back in the 70s Talbot wanted to become accredited by the ATS. They caved on a number of curricular matters (e.g., too many Bible classes). This provided the ostensible reason for MacArthur to withdraw his Talbot extension at Grace Church (about 100 students as I recall) and start The Master's Seminary. BTW, Master's is not ATS accredited to this day. They are, however, regionally accredited by WASC (http://www.tms.edu/pdf/Mantle.16.2.pdf).


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## Ask Mr. Religion

KMK said:


> Another question: Why don't unaccredited schools just come right out and let you know they are unaccredited? Why do they hide the fact back on page 107 of the course catalog? It seems more than a little disingenuous to me.


The better ones do make this clear up front. That should be a litmus test of sorts, too. 

AMR


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

KMK said:


> Dr. Clark asks a good question: Is there any good reason for a school NOT to be accredited? Why isn't Greenville accredited? Does it cost a great deal of money? Is the school required to take the mark of the beast? What is the reason?
> 
> Another question: Why don't unaccredited schools just come right out and let you know they are unaccredited? Why do they hide the fact back on page 107 of the course catalog? It seems more than a little disingenuous to me.



It is kind of ironic that a gentlemen who pushes for R2K so hard pushes just as hard for the government to regulate the training of ministers.


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## Romans 9:16

While there is a Biblical warrant for the idea of Presbytery ‘accrediting’ a man, there is no justification for the secular state to ‘accredit’ a divinity school. I don’t even like the idea of theological schools being independent of denominations. Schools must be under the oversight (and discipline) and the Presbytery/Synod. No aspect of formalized training should exist autonomously. Simply self baptizing an enterprise in the adjective ‘Reformed’ will not do. How many times do we have to see seminaries go liberal/heretical (or unhelpfully ecumenical) before we realize that a mere statement of faith somewhere in the founding documents is not enough of a binding tie. There needs to be accountability. Forget this nonsense of state accreditation (we are not communists). We must insist on theological education within the context and accountability structure of Presbyteries and Synods of real (and historic) church bodies. The church accredits its own schools. The state need only concern itself with killing killers and plowing the snow off my street.


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## KMK

DMcFadden said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Clark asks a good question: Is there any good reason for a school NOT to be accredited? Why isn't Greenville accredited? Does it cost a great deal of money? Is the school required to take the mark of the beast? What is the reason?
> 
> Another question: Why don't unaccredited schools just come right out and let you know they are unaccredited? Why do they hide the fact back on page 107 of the course catalog? It seems more than a little disingenuous to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Clark would have a more authoritative answer. But, since he doesn't seem to be around tonight . . . here goes. Accreditation is expensive and requires a variety of things that can be expensive. Size of library, diversity of faculty, cash reserves on hand, competitive salaries for faculty, various corporate policies and commitments (e.g., anti discrimination, corporate compliance, etc.), a very onerous self-examination followed by a site visit, etc. Back in the 70s Talbot wanted to become accredited by the ATS. They caved on a number of curricular matters (e.g., too many Bible classes). This provided the ostensible reason for MacArthur to withdraw his Talbot extension at Grace Church (about 100 students as I recall) and start The Master's Seminary. BTW, Master's is not ATS accredited to this day. They are, however, regionally accredited by WASC (http://www.tms.edu/pdf/Mantle.16.2.pdf).
Click to expand...

 
And these costs are passed along to the student. I get it. Therefore, it is possible that a seminary would eschew accreditation in order to keep their tuition low and not simply because they are run out of someone's basement.

What is interesting is the fact that Master's is not accredited. (By ATS) Yet the perception from most Christians I know is that it is just as much of a degree as Talbot.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

As an aside it is worth reading David Well's critique of ATS in his work "No Place for Truth".


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## Damon Rambo

Romans 9:16 said:


> While there is a Biblical warrant for the idea of Presbytery ‘accrediting’ a man, there is no justification for the secular state to ‘accredit’ a divinity school. I don’t even like the idea of theological schools being independent of denominations. Schools must be under the oversight (and discipline) and the Presbytery/Synod. No aspect of formalized training should exist autonomously. Simply self baptizing an enterprise in the adjective ‘Reformed’ will not do. How many times do we have to see seminaries go liberal/heretical (or unhelpfully ecumenical) before we realize that a mere statement of faith somewhere in the founding documents is not enough of a binding tie. There needs to be accountability. Forget this nonsense of state accreditation (we are not communists). We must insist on theological education within the context and accountability structure of Presbyteries and Synods of real (and historic) church bodies. The church accredits its own schools. The state need only concern itself with killing killers and plowing the snow off my street.


 
Since the "state" does not have any accreditation agencies, this is a moot point. The Regional, and National, accrediting agencies are independent agencies. Yes, they are approved by the Department of Education, but this is necessary: else there would not be any "Reformed" chaplains, etc. 

I personally, would not spend large sums of money on any school that is unaccredited. In most cases (though admittedly not all), "unaccredited" equals "poor quality." 

And of course, as a Baptist, I would greatly disagree with your idea of accountability through "Synods and Presbyteries," although I think that oversight from the local Church is important, such as we Southern Baptists have with our "Big Six" seminaries.


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## R. Scott Clark

kjat32 said:


> How does an uninformed potential student judge the level of accreditation? What is the difference between ATS and ARTS? We looked at Western Reformed but decided against it partially because of a lack of accrediatation...although they are ARTS. We really had no clue what means what. If you're looking for a degree that will be recognized by potential employers (outside of your own denomination) what really should you look for?


 
Hi Katherine,

This is difficult to gauge from the outside. The question is: what is the nature and function of accreditation? At bottom, the function of accreditation is to make sure that schools fulfill their promises and that they meet minimum standards. Students who pay tuition and donors who support an institution have a right to know that a school they attend or support meets basic standards. 

There have been a couple of alternative accrediting agencies established. The question I have for those agencies and for the schools who use them, in place of the regional accrediting bodies or ATS (or both) is this: does your agency have any real authority to hold you accountable? Obviously, by stepping outside the traditional accreditation process schools deny their students certain opportunities but so long as that's clear to the incoming students (that the school is not accredited formally in the strict sense of the word) and so long as the alternative accreditation serves to force schools to act in the best interest of the students, that's fine. What matters is the quality of the education being provided. If a school lacks the necessary facilities and faculty to provide a good education, an alternative accreditation isn't going to change that.

This gets to a comment that someone made (I don't remember who, it doesn't matter) that accreditation is expensive because it requires schools to provide services. That's the point. Renting a building and setting up shop doesn't make an entity into a school. A proper school has to provide certain services, e.g., an adequate library and other research facilities. It has to provide adequate classroom space. A proper school, one deserving of the name, has to have a qualified, trained, faculty. Those faculty have to eat and feed their families. Yes, running a proper school is expensive, even when institutions are as careful and frugal as they can be. 

I have been academic dean and served as accreditation liaison officer for WSC so I know from first-hand experience how challenging the accreditation process can be. Most of the time, however, it has been a positive experience. We learn from accreditors and the challenge they pose to us: "have you kept your promises?" is very important. 

We should not assume that accreditors necessarily pose an ideological threat to a confessional institution. We have views that we have to explain to each new set of visiting teams. That's okay. It's good for us to explain why we don't admit females to the MDiv or why we don't have females on our board of directors (because we have only elders and ministers on our board). That keeps us honest. In my experience (since 1997) even when they have disagreed with us our visiting teams have expressed admiration that we believe something and that we act on principle.

On some other issues:

The Master's College and Seminary are accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. WASC is the regional accreditation agency. Some schools, like WSC, have dual accreditation (e.g., by WASC and ATS) and some opt for single accreditation. 

On accreditation and two kingdoms. As I've noted here many times a seminary is a sort of ad hoc institution created after the Enlightenment essentially drove the theology faculties out of the universities. So we live in two worlds simultaneously. We function like a university faculty in exile and we have to meet the same academic standards as the university but we do so in service of the church and with ecclesiastical vocations (calls) to that end. Thus we serve the churches but we do so in the academy. Thus, we have to meet the academic and professional standards of the academy. 

We owe our ideological/theological allegiance to the Word of God as confessed by the Reformed churches, however, and if the latter conflicts with the former, the latter wins. We cannot compromise our basic mission in order to satisfy alien ideologies or standards or we should cease to exist. 

As I understand things, the agencies to whom we are voluntarily accountable are themselves accredited by the DOE but they are not agencies of the DOE. I am conscious too of Machen's opposition to the DOE but it exists and we submit to these agencies just as we submit to fire inspections and other such agencies that have oversight of aspects of our operations. 

There is an absolute epistemological antithesis but there is also common grace or general providence. The latter heading accounts for the aspect of commonality in all human endeavors, even when there is an epistemological anthesis.


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## KMK

> A proper school has to provide certain services, e.g., an adequate library and other research facilities. It has to provide adequate classroom space. A proper school, one deserving of the name, has to have a qualified, trained, faculty.



If by 'proper' you mean a school who's degree is universally recognized, then I would tend to agree. It would only make sense that a degree with any kind of universality would have to meet certain academic standards. 

I think it was Dr. Godfrey who did a good job of explaining the place of the seminary in the two kingdom view in one of his messages at the recent "Christ, Kingdom, Culture" conference. I couldn't find the audio. Maybe it is not available yet.


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## Marrow Man

yeutter said:


> I like the idea of having seminaries that teach men how to be scholar teachers. Does membership in the Association of Theological Schools or the Association of Reformed Theological Seminaries guarantee that such training will occur?



I have a friend who teaches adjunctly for one of the schools on the ARTS list (Birmingham TS). He says that the school specifically likes to hire pastors with advanced degrees as teachers. In other words, they want their faculty members to be employed in the ministry because they feel like this adds to the seminary education of their students.

As an aside, I believe I've read where some non-accredited school raise the question that government accreditation is desirable because it frees the purse strings for federal financial aid. Maybe that's just sour grapes, though.


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## markkoller

R. Scott Clark said:


> We should not assume that accreditors necessarily pose an ideological threat to a confessional institution.



It is not a matter of what threat they pose. It is instead a matter of authority. They have none. The church is the only oversight of the seminary.



R. Scott Clark said:


> As I understand things, the agencies to whom we are voluntarily accountable are themselves accredited by the DOE but they are not agencies of the DOE. I am conscious too of Machen's opposition to the DOE but *it exists and we submit to these agencies just as we submit to fire inspections *and other such agencies that have oversight of aspects of our operations.



No, brother, we do not. We don't have to submit to accreditation like we do to building codes. There is a great gulf between training men to preach the Word of God and regulating fire extinguishers.


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## R. Scott Clark

Mark,

The accreditors have no "authority" over us that we do not grant to them. That's why I used the word "voluntarily." 

The accreditors do not write our curriculum or give our lectures or write our books or meet with our students. We do that and we do it according to the Word of God as confessed by the churches. No accrediting agency can keep us from doing that.

We might have different views of the spirituality of the church. When Machen founded WTS he argued that it is contrary to the nature of the church, as church (i.e., as institution) to teach Hebrew and Greek and any number of academic subjects. It is the nature of the church as such to preach the gospel, administer the sacraments, and to administer discipline. Thus, he argued, a seminary should be distinct from the church as such.

At the same we are all ministers called by various churches and in submission to consistories and presbyteries as we fulfill our vocations. Our faculty are all pastors. We all serve congregations or carry on active pastoral ministries but it is not possible to serve full-time in pastoral ministry and be a full-time vocational scholar. To try to do both simultaneously would be let one suffer in the interest of the other. 

Bob Godfrey's addresses to the Christ, Kingdom and Culture conference are available via video on the WSC site:

Westminster Video Resources


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## Michael

nleshelman said:


> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?


The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...


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## KMK

Michael Turner said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?
> 
> 
> 
> The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...
Click to expand...

 
WSC is accredited, brick and morter, and very expensive. All things being equal, wouldn't you rather get your degree there? Or WTS? Or RTS? etc. Even if unaccredited schools have their place, wouldn't we all rather attend real classes with real professors with a real library and a real chapel with real guest lecturers? I know I would. Maybe that is what retirement is for.


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## Michael

KMK said:


> Michael Turner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?
> 
> 
> 
> The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WSC is accredited, brick and morter, and very expensive. All things being equal, wouldn't you rather get your degree there? Or WTS? Or RTS? etc. Even if unaccredited schools have their place, wouldn't we all rather attend real classes with real professors with a real library and a real chapel with real guest lecturers? I know I would. Maybe that is what retirement is for.
Click to expand...

Rather? Absolutely. Even remotely feasible for me? Not really.

I am a family man with a load of debt and can't exactly relocate. Yet I sit around and study seminary material for pure enjoyment. I might as well participate with some structure online when the time allows.


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## R. Scott Clark

Ken,

If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year. 

People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office

888 480 8474


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

KMK said:


> Michael Turner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?
> 
> 
> 
> The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WSC is accredited, brick and morter, and very expensive. All things being equal, wouldn't you rather get your degree there? Or WTS? Or RTS? etc. Even if unaccredited schools have their place, wouldn't we all rather attend real classes with real professors with a real library and a real chapel with real guest lecturers? I know I would. Maybe that is what retirement is for.
Click to expand...

 
I am not sure I would call Dr. Beeke, Dr. Murray, Dr. Pipa, Dr. Smith, Dr. Shaw, and the rest of the faculties at GPTS and PRTS not "real professors".


----------



## R. Scott Clark

*WSC costs lower than you might think*

Quick follow up to the earlier post:

Our admissions/financial aid staff is in the process of surveying our students on their actual expenses. So far 50% of our 150 students have responded.

Approx. 1/2 our single students spend less than $400 per month on rent and utilities.

The other 1/2 spends under $600 per month on rent and utilities.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

This is just a question but what is the size of these apartments that cost less than $400 and less than $600? How many of these students have multiple children? How many of these students are second-career?


----------



## R. Scott Clark

Benjamin,



> I am not sure I would call Dr. Beeke, Dr. Murray, Dr. Pipa, Dr. Smith, Dr. Shaw, and the rest of the faculties at GPTS and PRTS not "real professors".



For the sake of clarity and charity, the context of Ken's comment was not PRTS or GPTS but another entity altogether. 

Second, I don't know the size of the apartments in which our students live but that's not quite what I reported. I reported what they spend. Many of our students live together in apartments and houses. My wife and I lived comfortably in a one-bedroom apartment and then a two-BR apt in seminary and we were comfortable. 

I did specify "single" students. I don't know what the survey says about married students. I know that many of our students take 4 years to do their MDiv degrees, several are married with children and they are doing well. Faculty advisors meet with students in small groups every week during term and we meet with them individually also and we do make sure that they are well. There is a great community here. E.g., every year the OPCs provide a great lot of food to students for the Thanksgiving holiday. Other local congregations and families take students in and make sure that their basic needs are met. One family has fed a dozen or more students every Monday night during term, at no cost to the students, for several years. 

I tell prospective students "I can't tell you how God will provide but I can testify to the marvelous ways in which he has provided for our students over the course of 30 years." Some of them even leave weighing more than when they came! 

>:0


----------



## Damon Rambo

R. Scott Clark said:


> Ken,
> 
> If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.
> 
> People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office
> 
> 888 480 8474


 
I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.). 

However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."


----------



## yeutter

It would be helpful to hear from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and the Canadian Reformed and the Protestant Reformed churches as to why they do not accredit their schools.
I suspect they would say that accreditation is an ecclesiastical function. Period!
The discussion in this thread has been helpful.


----------



## KMK

R. Scott Clark said:


> Ken,
> 
> If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.
> 
> People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office
> 
> 888 480 8474


 
Absolutely! I was using the term 'very expensive' in comparison to 'nearly free' online seminaries.


----------



## KMK

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Turner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?
> 
> 
> 
> The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WSC is accredited, brick and morter, and very expensive. All things being equal, wouldn't you rather get your degree there? Or WTS? Or RTS? etc. Even if unaccredited schools have their place, wouldn't we all rather attend real classes with real professors with a real library and a real chapel with real guest lecturers? I know I would. Maybe that is what retirement is for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not sure I would call Dr. Beeke, Dr. Murray, Dr. Pipa, Dr. Smith, Dr. Shaw, and the rest of the faculties at GPTS and PRTS not "real professors".
Click to expand...

 
I was referring to 'online' seminaries with only 'virtual' professors.

As an aside, I consider Larry Bray a friend and am sure NARS has a useful place in God's kingdom.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Apologies.


----------



## R. Scott Clark

> I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).



Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour. 

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00 

For what it's worth our students have not complained to me that they are being over charged. We really do work hard to keep our costs and fees down. Our students pay only about 40% of the cost of their education. We raise the rest. We're thankful to our faithful supporters who see the value in having a solid, confessional Reformed seminary on the West coast. 

We now have over 800 graduates and alumni serving Christ all over the globe.

This summer Office Hours is focusing on three alumni who are serving Christ in Israel, SE Asia, and Turkey. 

Here's an interview with three students and with our Director of Admissions, Mark MacVey, where they address some of the questions about cost of living etc

http://www.netfilehost.com/wscal/OfficeHours/09.08.09Students.mp3


----------



## Semper Fidelis

$350 per credit hour is very reasonable.


----------



## DMcFadden

My alma mater is $47,520 for a M.Div. vs. $38,500 for WSCal (including Grk/Heb) . . . and you get to graduate with your faith intact! Can you spell b-a-r-g-a-i-n?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Just for comparison's sake GPTS is $150/credit hour, PRTS is $190/credit hour, RPTS is $255/credit hour, and my unholy alma mater PTS is $280/credit hour.


----------



## Notthemama1984

Damon Rambo said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.
> 
> People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office
> 
> 888 480 8474
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).
> 
> However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."
Click to expand...

 
To be fair, the prices you quote for Southern and NOBTS are for members of a Southern Baptist Church. If you are not a member of one of those churches, the price jumps to over 400 per hr. Actually NOBTS still has a special going on and is keeping the tuition under 200 from all. It is in an effort to rebuild the school post-Katrina. 

Even with the cheap education one has to determine the quality of education one is receiving. No offense to NOBTS, but I would much rather pay more and get an education from something Reformed or at least quasi-Reformed.


----------



## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.
> 
> People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office
> 
> 888 480 8474
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).
> 
> However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To be fair, the prices you quote for Southern and NOBTS are for members of a Southern Baptist Church. If you are not a member of one of those churches, the price jumps to over 400 per hr. Actually NOBTS still has a special going on and is keeping the tuition under 200 from all. It is in an effort to rebuild the school post-Katrina.
> 
> Even with the cheap education one has to determine the quality of education one is receiving. No offense to NOBTS, but I would much rather pay more and get an education from something Reformed or at least quasi-Reformed.
Click to expand...

 
brother,

Actually you are incorrect here. All you have to do to get the discounted rate, at any of the Southern Baptist Seminaries, is to sign a statement saying you adhere to the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. The 2000 BF & M is VERY general, and other than church government and the issue of credo vs. Paedo, could (probably) be signed by a Presbyterian, in good conscience (and actually, I have a Credobaptist Presbyterian Church near my house {Houston}...not sure how that works. I am not an expert of Presbyterians, but that seems inherently contradictory).


----------



## Notthemama1984

No offense, but I went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for a semester and I just got off the Souther Baptist Theological Seminary website. In both cases, you have to be a member of an SBC church to receive the discount. At SWBTS, I had to get a letter from my church stating that I was a member of XYZ church and that this church was a member of the SBC. Only then could I receive the discount.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

Out of curiosity, which Presbyterian church is credobaptist? I go to church in Houston and was unaware of one.


----------



## R. Scott Clark

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Just for comparison's sake GPTS is $150/credit hour, PRTS is $190/credit hour, RPTS is $255/credit hour, and my unholy alma mater PTS is $280/credit hour.


 
This gets us back to apples again. 

Denominational schools receive funding from the denomination and the PCUSA is a very wealthy, old-money denomination. It is, as you suggest, a problematic school for those with confessional commitments or for those who hold the biblical view of Scripture. I suppose there are other ways in which getting an education at a mainline sem would be problematic. 

Joel Beeke and Joey Pipa are friends and colleagues but those schools are not accredited in the usual sense of that word (e.g., regional accreditation or ATS). At the same time we are alike in that we are each confessional and conservative and seeking to serve the NAPARC churches.

Another factor to consider is size. Seminaries come in small, medium, and large. 

GPTS, MARS, RTS/A, and PRTS are (for now) small schools. WSC was a still a small school (75 students) when I enrolled in 1984 but has since grown. There are advantages to attending a small school (e.g., student:teacher ratio) but smaller schools don't always have the facilities (e.g., library or support staff) that a larger school might have. 

WSC is a middle-sized school (150 students; approx 120 FTE). We have limited our enrollment to 200. Our library has grown considerably since my student days! If one knows where to look in the library it's possible to see where the old wall was and how much it has expanded (and continues to expand in real books and in electronic journal/resource collection. Still, we have a very good student:teacher ratio.

WTS/P, Covenant, RTS (e.g., Orlando or Jackson or the considered as a system) are large schools (but not as large as Fuller or DTS).

There are a number of factors in comparing school. We might also consider location. Most Reformed seminaries are located in major metro areas or have migrated there. That affects cost of living but also presents different opportunities for ministry preparation. Some are in cold-weather locations and others in sun-belt locations (to where a good bit of the population shifted in the 1970s and 80s).

I'm also learning from the administration that schools calculate and report their costs differently. I don't work in the admin so I don't know the details but that's worth investigating.


----------



## DMcFadden

For what it's worth, I have been a vocal proponent of places like PRTS on the PB. However, if you are speaking of the traditionally accredited schools (probably the best choice for most students), there are other issues to consider besides the sticker price.

1. What are your goals? If it is further academic study, what record does this institution have for placing graduates in the kinds of grad schools you would be interested in attending?

2. How accepted are the graduates of this school in your intended denomination? Will you be looked at as some kind of cyclops by your colleagues, limited in your mobility, and constantly explaining away your alma mater? In many denominational groups, seminary affinity and the relationships formed during seminary are important in an on-going way. Regardless of your personal beliefs, would you really want to be the only graduate from Crazy Leftwing Seminary X,Y,Z in your judicatory?

3. After interviewing 500 or so ordinands, I cannot say strongly enough: Select a seminary that will actually educate you, train you for ministry, and graduate you better prepared for ministry. While there are plenty of exceptions, too many men emerge from seminary ill suited to ministry and beset with a host of odd dysfunctionalities acquired in seminary. For example, while a PhD program is not expected to strengthen your spiritual and confessional commitments, a M.Div. should! A few bucks saved cannot overcome the disadvantage of attending a typical believe-anything mainline denominational seminary or a school that prides itself in disabusing students of their "foolish" conservative ideas about the Bible.

The points Dr. Clark makes are exactly on target. There are alternative ways to manage the money issues (e.g., grants, scholarships, spouse working, elongating the process beyond three years, etc.). I would probably opt for a PRTS if returning to seminary. However, it is very difficult to beat Westminster (east or west), RTS, or Southern when it comes to solid schools. If my choice was WSC or a less expensive liberal denominational school, no contest. It would be Escondido any time.

If you are a newbie looking at seminaries, be careful! As an old sys theo prof once told me (he started off as a farmer before seminary), "Select you ruts very carefully. You are likely to be in them for a very long time."


----------



## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> No offense, but I went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for a semester and I just got off the Souther Baptist Theological Seminary website. In both cases, you have to be a member of an SBC church to receive the discount. At SWBTS, I had to get a letter from my church stating that I was a member of XYZ church and that this church was a member of the SBC. Only then could I receive the discount.



No offense taken. I know that used to, all of the Southern Baptist Seminaries had an agreement one could sign, in lieu of an endorsing SBC church. I am not sure if SWBTS still does it, but I know for a fact that Southern and NOBTS (before they opened the tuition rates up to everyone) still have it.

SBTS – Future Students – Covenant Agreement



> ---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]Out of curiosity, which Presbyterian church is credobaptist? I go to church in Houston and was unaware of one.


 
I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:

Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston

Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...


----------



## Notthemama1984

> Students from a different denominational background may qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition when they affiliate with a SBC church and affirm a call to service within the SBC. The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates.



Notice again that you have to affiliate with an SBC church.


----------



## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> Students from a different denominational background may qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition when they affiliate with a SBC church and affirm a call to service within the SBC. The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice again that you have to affiliate with an SBC church.
Click to expand...


The participation with an approved church, is no different than the requirements with any other Seminary in the world, including Westminster.


----------



## Notthemama1984

Correction, WSC is not offering some discount as long as you are affiliated with a Reformed church. SBC on the other hand is requiring students to at least be associated with an SBC church to receive the discount. 

All seminaries require students to be a part of some church, but that is an admissions requirement, not a tuition discount requirement.


----------



## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> Correction, WSC is not offering some discount as long as you are affiliated with a Reformed church. SBC on the other hand is requiring students to at least be associated with an SBC church to receive the discount.
> 
> All seminaries require students to be a part of some church, but that is an admissions requirement, not a tuition discount requirement.



It is a moot point. Westminster requires you to be part of a church, and I am certain that they have requirements for what churches are permissible (You could certainly not be a part of a Jehovah's witness assembly, I am sure). 

The only distinction between those who get the discount, and those who do not, is the acceptance of the BF & M. ALL students are required to affiliate with an appropriate church, just like every other seminary in the world.


----------



## Notthemama1984

It is not a moot point. I am pointing out that you cannot receive the discount by going to a Presbyterian church as long as you sign off on the BF&M.


----------



## Kiffin

If I'm not mistaken, the Covenant Agreement for SBC tuition rates indicates affiliation and service in the SBC is required not just while you're in seminary but AFTER as well. In other words, to get SBC rates, you must BECOME SBC.


----------



## Notthemama1984

Kiffin said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the Covenant Agreement for SBC tuition rates indicates affiliation and service in the SBC is required not just while you're in seminary but AFTER as well. In other words, to get SBC rates, you must BECOME SBC.


 
Bingo


----------



## fredtgreco

R. Scott Clark said:


> Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.
> 
> Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00



RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.





Damon Rambo said:


> I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:
> 
> http://bethelofhouston.com/faq]Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston[/url]
> 
> Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...


 
Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church. Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor. Has has already shown himself a hireling. (And for the record, the same would be true of a baptist who signed a paedobaptist statement for money.)


----------



## KMK

fredtgreco said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.
> 
> Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.
Click to expand...


That is a great deal. Do you know if that applies only to the MDiv?


----------



## Andres

fredtgreco said:


> Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church. *Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor. Has has already shown himself a hireling. (And for the record, the same would be true of a baptist who signed a paedobaptist statement for money.)*



 I am appalled that any Christian, much less a future minister, would even consider just telling the school what they want to hear to save some money. Signing and agreeing to a confession that one does not truly hold to is lying and I would hope honoring the 9th commandment would be more important than getting a discount.


----------



## fredtgreco

KMK said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.
> 
> Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a great deal. Do you know if that applies only to the MDiv?
Click to expand...

 I believe it applies to all degrees, but I am not sure. I am almost positive it is both MDiv and MA, might be DMin as well.


----------



## dannyhyde

FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for *associate membership* in ATS and is expected to be received *at that level* by the end of the school year. *Full membership is then on the horizon*.


----------



## Damon Rambo

fredtgreco said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.
> 
> Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:
> 
> http://bethelofhouston.com/faq]Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston[/url]
> 
> Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church.
Click to expand...

I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.



> Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor.


 
I agree. However, there are certain standards to which you must agree, and things which you must believe, to attend any seminary. Simply stating that the Big six's tuition rate "doesn't count" because they give a lower rate for people who agree with their statement of faith, is ridiculous.


----------



## Notthemama1984

Again they only offer the discount to those who are affiliated with an SBC church and plan on working in an SBC church. It is not because you sign off on the BF&M.


----------



## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> Again they only offer the discount to those who are affiliated with an SBC church and plan on working in an SBC church. It is not because you sign off on the BF&M.


 
That is not what it says. You do not, presently, have to be affiliated with a SBC. You do have to become a member of a church, just like you do at every other seminary in the world.


----------



## DMcFadden

dannyhyde said:


> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.


 
Wow! That would make PRTS an even more attractive deal than now. Reasonable tuition, great scholarship, experiemental Calvinism and fully accredited. Wow!


----------



## Notthemama1984

Damon Rambo said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again they only offer the discount to those who are affiliated with an SBC church and plan on working in an SBC church. It is not because you sign off on the BF&M.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what it says. You do not, presently, have to be affiliated with a SBC. You do have to become a member of a church, just like you do at every other seminary in the world.
Click to expand...

 
Here is the exact quote from the link you provided earlier.



> Students from a different denominational background *may* qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition *when they affiliate with a SBC church and affirm a call to service within the SBC*. The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates.



Thus I stand by my statement. You can be from a different denomination, but you have to at least affiliate with a SBC church and serve within one.


----------



## KMK

DMcFadden said:


> dannyhyde said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That would make PRTS an even more attractive deal than now. Reasonable tuition, great scholarship, experiemental Calvinism and fully accredited. Wow!
Click to expand...

 
Indeed, especially because of this from the PRTS website: 



> Degree seeking students are allowed to complete 50% of their course work via our distance learning program.


----------



## SemperEruditio

Damon Rambo said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again they only offer the discount to those who are affiliated with an SBC church and plan on working in an SBC church. It is not because you sign off on the BF&M.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what it says. You do not, presently, have to be affiliated with a SBC. You do have to become a member of a church, just like you do at every other seminary in the world.
Click to expand...

Sorry brother but it's not as easy as you make it sound. Yes you do have to be affiliated with a church just like any other seminary however to get the discount you have to be willing to serve in the SBC AFTER you graduate.



> There are two ways that students may receive the SBC Tuition Rate:
> 
> Entitlement (Prior Church Affiliation): If the original Church Membership Affirmation form comes from an SBC church and indicates active membership for a minimum of one year, that student will automatically qualify for the SBC tuition discount as outlined by SBTS.
> 
> Conviction: Students from a different denominational background may qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition when they affiliate with a SBC church *and affirm a call to service within the SBC.* The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates. The stipulations of this agreement are:
> 
> The student must affirm a commitment to pursue* ongoing service within the SBC after* graduation from Boyce College or Southern Seminary by signing the Covenant Agreement.
> 
> Incoming students signing the Covenant Agreement have one semester to become an active member in a local Southern Baptist church. Continuing students must be active members at a local Southern Baptist church before signing the Covenant Agreement.
> 
> The student’s former pastor must sign the Covenant Agreement, affirming that the student has discussed the commitment to align with the SBC.
> 
> The student’s current local pastor must sign the Church Membership Affirmation form to verify good standing (a complementary form to the Covenant Agreement).



So the 50% discount is at the price of agreeing to ongoing service within the SBC after graduation. There are strings attached to this discount.


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## Notthemama1984

KMK said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyhyde said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That would make PRTS an even more attractive deal than now. Reasonable tuition, great scholarship, experiemental Calvinism and fully accredited. Wow!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, especially because of this from the PRTS website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Degree seeking students are allowed to complete 50% of their course work via our distance learning program.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Will PRTS change their 50% distance learning requirement once they are ATS accredited? I was under the impression that ATS only allowed 30 hrs as distance learning. I could be wrong on this.


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## Damon Rambo

Chaplainintraining said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyhyde said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That would make PRTS an even more attractive deal than now. Reasonable tuition, great scholarship, experiemental Calvinism and fully accredited. Wow!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, especially because of this from the PRTS website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Degree seeking students are allowed to complete 50% of their course work via our distance learning program.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Will PRTS change their 50% distance learning requirement once they are ATS accredited? I was under the impression that ATS only allowed 30 hrs as distance learning. I could be wrong on this.
Click to expand...

 
I think you are confusing the ATS with something else. ATS standards are here:

http://www.ats.edu/Accrediting/Documents/08DegreeStandards.pdf

And only require, for the M.Div., a minimum of 1 year of full time study, or it's equivalent, be done in residence. So presumably, all but 30 hours of a 90 CH M.Div. could be done by distance ed.

Of course, I could be wrong.


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## Notthemama1984

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## fredtgreco

Damon Rambo said:


> I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.


 The church may have claimed it; it is possible that you may have seen it claimed. But that does not make it true.

I can claim to be Mohandas Ghandi. I can also claim to be a tomato. That doesn't make it so.


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## Notthemama1984

fredtgreco said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The church may have claimed it; it is possible that you may have seen it claimed. But that does not make it true.
> 
> I can claim to be Mohandas Ghandi. I can also claim to be a tomato. That doesn't make it so.
Click to expand...

 
Of course you aren't a tomato. We all know tomatoes are named Bob.


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## Damon Rambo

fredtgreco said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The church may have claimed it; it is possible that you may have seen it claimed. But that does not make it true.
> 
> I can claim to be Mohandas Ghandi. I can also claim to be a tomato. That doesn't make it so.
Click to expand...

 Which is pretty much what I said in my original post, when I said the idea was "inherently contradictory."


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

dannyhyde said:


> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.


 
Thanks for this. Very interesting.

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------




KMK said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyhyde said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for ATS and is expected to be received by the end of the school year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That would make PRTS an even more attractive deal than now. Reasonable tuition, great scholarship, experiemental Calvinism and fully accredited. Wow!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, especially because of this from the PRTS website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Degree seeking students are allowed to complete 50% of their course work via our distance learning program.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 
This is what I am doing with the Th.M program at PRTS. I plan on starting attending the on-site modules when I get some money saved up.


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## yeutter

fredtgreco said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The church may have claimed it; it is possible that you may have seen it claimed. But that does not make it true.
> 
> I can claim to be Mohandas Ghandi. I can also claim to be a tomato. That doesn't make it so.
Click to expand...

 
Off topic here; but the Free Presbyterian Church on Page #2 of its Book of Order says that it embraces both those who adhere to Paedobaptism and Credo Baptism.

Back on topic; one way to judge a seminary is to judge the quality of preachers it produces. Two of the best preachers I have sat under have been graduates of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, but Addison H. Leitch and John H. Gerstner were still on the faculty when they studied there. The other really good preachers I have heard were graduates of Reformed Episcopal, Protestant Reformed, Tyndale House, Westminster Philadelphia [back when it was still unaccredited], Nashotah House, Southern Baptist, Canadian Reformed, Puritan Reformed, and Reformed Theological Seminary. Some are accredited, some are not. I think all have good libraries.


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## Irish Presbyterian

yeutter said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The church may have claimed it; it is possible that you may have seen it claimed. But that does not make it true.
> 
> I can claim to be Mohandas Ghandi. I can also claim to be a tomato. That doesn't make it so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Off topic here; but the Free Presbyterian Church on Page #2 of its Book of Order says that it embraces both those who adhere to Paedobaptism and Credo Baptism.
> .
Click to expand...


The Free Presbyterian Church was started by the son of a Baptist Pastor whose denomination (the Free Presbyterian Church) was formed out of a split in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. He was never a Presbyterian or paedobaptist by confession.


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## jogri17

let me just quickly say that Farel Theological Seminary in Montréal is now accredited through a deeal with Concordia and none of their theological commitments are affected in any ways plus you can pay the Farel price for tuition and take some classes at Concordia. Thus it is accreditated by the Québec (and thus Canadian) government.


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## kjat32

Thanks to all who have helped unravel some of the confusion around accreditation.
We were looking at a seminary education as preparation for serving overseas as an instructor at a Bible college or seminary. Thus, accreditation comes into play.
It seems like the Southern Baptist TS tuition discount has been sorted out. Since my husband is currently a distance student, I may have more current information on that. To receive the discount you must join a SBC church, attend it during seminary, and serve in the SBC denomination after graduation. I believe my husband was told that they (perhaps unofficially?) require at least 3 years of service after graduation, presumably then you could change denominations. We had considered signing this but felt unable to because we weren't sure which missionary organization God might lead us to and the only one open to us would have been the SB (IMB I think?).
On a side note, my husband is applying to transfer to Westminster California for next year. We are looking forward to meeting all the fine people on this board who are there!


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## Kevin

I would also like to add that Haddington House (PEI Canada) offers distence & on-site modular courses @ 250.00 PER COURSE. And all HH classes are accepted at (ATS accredited) Erskine, Acadia, and other schools.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

What is HH's website?


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## Kevin

Ben, go here; Haddington House Trust


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## Ask Mr. Religion

The HHT site has zero links that describe its course offerings. 

AMR


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## Backwoods Presbyterian




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## Kevin

email them & they will send you a list of courses & all info.


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