# Carnivore



## NeoInarien (Nov 18, 2004)

Hello all,

Attending a Roman Catholic Institution as I do, I am often beaten over the head about how Calvin's view of God, is a carnivoress God. A God who either:

1. creates imperfect beings, since people are being made to be destroyed
2. a sadist since He creates to destroy to magnify His own glory
3. a carnivoress beast who creates souls to later consume them


I continuously re-assert that why God does this is beyond our knowledge. Nonetheless, being outnumbered by Catholics in some of my classes (such as my reformation theology class) for example by as much as 34 Catholics per 3 protestants (1 Baptist, 1 Methodist, then me) let alone the Jesuit professors (who actually never really intervene and are typically very objective). My explanation simply does not fly.

What other reasons might one point to? Specific scripture verses that answer why God does this?

Thanks all,

~Tom


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## SmokingFlax (Nov 18, 2004)

Romans chapter 9.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 18, 2004)

Psalm 2, 5, 7, 11, 33, 115


I went to Jesuit college myself. But we never got into the topic of theology in classes much, not even Catholic theology. But they were a pretty liberal school too...


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2004)

Reply that they are judging God by fallen man's standards


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 18, 2004)

You must first attack their Arminianism. Their soteriology is skewed. They believe men save themselves, hence to them, a God of election is unthinkable. Attacxk this principle and their whole system crumbles to the ground.


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## alwaysreforming (Nov 18, 2004)

Wow, Tom, it must put a lot of pressure on you having to come up with answers to questions like those!
First off, I think we can all agree that the questions posed are simply caricatures of God, and awful ones at that! But that doesn't mean that those asking them are not really seeking the truth and aren't puzzled/terrified at the God you're (or the Reformers) are suggesting.

I think we've all had to deal with asking ourselves just why God must create people, if in the end He is going to punish them eternally in Hell.

But, as suggested above, the first place to start is Romans 9, and specifically, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

As the verse suggests, God is not obligated to reveal His secret willings with us. How His way of doing things ultimately glorifies Himself is beyond our tracing out. Also, we could hardly fathom those mysteries even if He should indulge us.

What I might end up saying if pressed as you were is simply that those "caricatures" of God are NOT true, that God is not a carnivorous beast as some have blasphemousy painted Him, AND God has not chosen to reveal to us just how His perfect and Holy and Just and Merciful nature is reconciled to the conditions we see around us and to His glorious truths revealed in Scripture, including that many must endure Hell.

Yes, God is a force to be reckoned with, etc. But ultimately He is also Perfect, and everything He does is THE best and most Righteous way of accomplishing His perfect will. If we cannot comprehend it, then we shall be well advised to steer clear of pontificating on it, and much more, to steer clear of perhaps bismirching His character and Name and blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

"The secret things belong to the Lord." They are too wonderful and awesome for us to grab hold of. Let us be satisfied simply with understanding what He HAS revealed:
that He is Gracious, and Good, and Merciful, and Patient, and Just; that there is nothing imperfect about Him. And if we should understand Him to be anything less than described above (as it has pleased Him to reveal Himself in Scripture), then surely the fault is with our understanding, NOT His character.

This is just a starter, and I'm sure others here will be able to add some more solid and concrete answers to help reach those in your class.


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NeoInarien_
> Hello all,
> 
> Attending a Roman Catholic Institution as I do, I am often beaten over the head about how Calvin's view of God, is a carnivoress God. A God who either:
> ...



John Piper once said something that I think applies well in this situation, which is when talking about the doctrine of soteriology to always make it a predominantly textual issue, rather than a speculative, philosophical one. Are you trying to demonstrate the truth to them of election and reprobation, or all the doctrines of grace and God's providence?


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## NeoInarien (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes, I do hammer out that it is not our place to question, or even to know God's designs. Needless to say, this does not sit well with most non-theology major Christians who I find to all be free-will people. 

Even so, it is difficult if one chooses to think on it, to reconcile an 'all loving God' and a god who chooses to raise people up only to smash them down.


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## Mayflower (Nov 19, 2004)

You have to talked with about the St. Augustine and Gods grace.


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NeoInarien_
> Yes, I do hammer out that it is not our place to question, or even to know God's designs. Needless to say, this does not sit well with most non-theology major Christians who I find to all be free-will people.
> 
> Even so, it is difficult if one chooses to think on it, to reconcile an 'all loving God' and a god who chooses to raise people up only to smash them down.




Matt has a paper (soon to be a book) on the two wills of God. It can be found on his site.


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## Puritanhead (Dec 30, 2004)

Carnivores? We're not eating a resacrificed Jesus at mass... In the good old days, the nunns told the children "not to chew Jesus," but presumably moisten him up and swallow him.


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