# Loci Classici



## chbrooking (Jun 6, 2009)

While all of the Bible is true and profitable, certain texts stand out as particularly potent for establishing doctrines. For instance, Luke 24:44-47 and 2 Cor. 1:20 provide concise and definitive proofs of the christocentric nature of the entire history of redemption and all biblical revelation. Similarly, Rom. 5:12-19 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22; 44b-49 encapsulates the first Adam, Second Adam covenantal structure of redemption.

I would like for this thread to become a collection of these EXTREMELY rich texts. If we produce a good list, it will be something of a systematic theology all on its own. 

One of the reasons I’m wanting to do this is that I can no longer remember which things I deduced by good and necessary consequence and which things were explicit. Unlike many of you, my memory is weak. I need to be reminded of what I once knew. 

Would you mind helping? Remember, not just your favorite verses, but really significant texts, loci classici for major and minor doctrines. If the meaning isn’t evident on the surface, feel free to elaborate on the exegesis, and how that establishes the doctrine explicitly.


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## greenbaggins (Jun 6, 2009)

Well, the doctrine of election has very clear loci classici in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. Arminians tend to forget that "election," "predestination," and "foreordination" are biblical words, not words invented by John Calvin. Romans 9 also explicitly addresses the objection to the doctrine that Arminians bring (that election is based on foreknowledge, or I should reduced to foreknowledge).


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## CharlieJ (Jun 6, 2009)

How do we weed out the "false" loci? For example,

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


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## Whitefield (Jun 6, 2009)

Ephesian 2:8-10 destroys the idea that human merit saves in any way, and yet at the same time establishes that good works are the fruit of salvation.


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## chbrooking (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes, these are precisely the sort of references I'm looking to collect here. Thanks and keep 'em coming.

There are literally thousands. From 1 Tim 2:12 establishing male leadership in the church to John 10:11,26 establishing limited/particular atonement. Don't shy away from controversial topics, either. Let's not argue them at length here -- start other threads for that -- but if you think a passage is very clear on a point of doctrine, throw it in the mix. An example would be Col 2:11-12 for infant baptism. I'm sure credo's disagree. That's fine. This isn't a thread for argument. If you are a credo and you'd like to throw in a verse to counter Col 2, feel free. I'm not looking to argue, so much as list those really powerful verses on which volumes cold be written.

Thanks again

-----Added 6/6/2009 at 04:11:02 EST-----



CharlieJ said:


> How do we weed out the "false" loci?



I'm only asking you to post what you believe DOES establish a point of doctrine. If verses get posted that do not establish what the poster claims they establish, I believe we can engage them through PM or start other threads to deal with it. You might even just remark, "I disagree with the citation of x to establish y", and leave it at that. Extensive argumentation will derail the list. Thanks, though. Good question.


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## chbrooking (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, this didn't produce like I hoped it would. Too bad.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 8, 2009)

Sometimes, its the timing of the question, Clark. Be patient, and BUMP your thread from time to time, if you think its a valuable idea. You add to it, and others will too.

And don't forget, we only appear as founts of wisdom, opining frequently on our pet themes. Probably, not many of us have thought long on the question in the past, so there's no depth of answers to fish from.


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## chbrooking (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks Bruce, I'll begin adding my own and see of some join in.

How do you "bump" a thread?


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## CharlieJ (Jun 8, 2009)

You just did.


James 1:13-14 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 

I think this is a locus both for the impeccability of Christ and for the creaturely origin of sin.


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## Michael Doyle (Jun 8, 2009)

God`s Covenant of Grace: Genesis 3:15

-----Added 6/8/2009 at 11:22:43 EST-----

Christ the Surety of the covenant of grace: Hebrews 7:22


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## chbrooking (Jun 9, 2009)

With that said ...
John 6 is particularly rich for the doctrines of grace. John 6:37-39 seems to single-handedly establish both irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.


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## Whitefield (Jun 9, 2009)

1 Samuel 2:25 always serves to remind me of my fundamental need for an intercessor:

"If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?"


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## chbrooking (Jun 9, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> 1 Samuel 2:25 always serves to remind me of my fundamental need for an intercessor:
> 
> "If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?"



Rom 8:34 is also very helpful here, and it specifies which member of the godhead is doing the intercession.


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## greenbaggins (Jun 9, 2009)

I've always thought that the Sermon on the Mount is maybe the most important place to go to see how we ought to interpret the Ten Commandments, especially how the Lord's focus on the sixth and seventh commandments are paradigmatic for how we ought to treat all the other commandments.


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## chbrooking (Jun 9, 2009)

greenbaggins said:


> I've always thought that the Sermon on the Mount is maybe the most important place to go to see how we ought to interpret the Ten Commandments, especially how the Lord's focus on the sixth and seventh commandments are paradigmatic for how we ought to treat all the other commandments.



Thanks, I was thinking the same thing, but wasn't sure it belonged. I'll side with you (a safe thing to do) and assume it does. So thanks.

And since that belongs, I'm thinking Heb 1:1-2 belongs as well -- speaking to cessation, particularly when it is coupled with Jude 3.

-----Added 6/9/2009 at 04:47:57 EST-----

On the deity of Christ, I have found John 1:1; 20:28 and Heb 1:9 to be most helpful to me for demonstrating it. There are others, too, but these come readily to mind.

-----Added 6/9/2009 at 04:49:48 EST-----

Let's not be shy about including the obvious:

Man in the image of God: Gen 1:26-27 pre-fall and 9:6 post.


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## MW (Jun 9, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> John 6 is particularly rich for the doctrines of grace. John 6:37-39 seems to single-handedly establish both irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.



A locus classicus is a particular place of Scripture to which the church, or a section thereof, has historically appealed in order to establish a certain doctrine. I don't think the effect of the Scripture on an individual's doctrinal belief can properly be accounted "classic."


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## chbrooking (Jun 9, 2009)

Fair enough, but hasn't this passage been a locus classicus for at least one of the two doctrines for which I listed it? At any rate, my title may be poorly chosen for the project, but I'll ask you to overlook that as a favor to me. I'd love your input on the thread.


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## MW (Jun 9, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> Fair enough, but hasn't this passage been a locus classicus for at least one of the two doctrines for which I listed it? At any rate, my title may be poorly chosen for the project, but I'll ask you to overlook that as a favor to me. I'd love your input on the thread.



It certainly has been historically utilised for these doctrines. I don't have time at present to contribute anything significant to the thread, only to point out that a locus classicus should be historically objectifiable. E.g., 2 Tim. 3:16 and the sufficiency of Scripture in the context of the Reformed debate with Romanism or the Puritan struggle against the Elizabethan settlement; or the appeal to Gethsemane to demonstrate the two natures of Christ contrary to monotheletism. Turretine's Institutes should provide a handy reference for such texts.


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## Whitefield (Jun 9, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> chbrooking said:
> 
> 
> > John 6 is particularly rich for the doctrines of grace. John 6:37-39 seems to single-handedly establish both irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.
> ...



From where do you derive this definition? Locus classicus is "A passage from a classic or standard work that is cited as an illustration or instance." How is that citation reserved to the church and not the individual believer? Would your definition say that Luther and Calvin had no loci classici, because they were individuals?


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## MW (Jun 9, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> From where do you derive this definition? Locus classicus is "A passage from a classic or standard work that is cited as an illustration or instance." How is that citation reserved to the church and not the individual believer? Would your definition say that Luther and Calvin had no loci classici, because they were individuals?



The dictionary definition is as follows:

1 : a passage that has become a standard for the elucidation of a word or subject. 
2 : a classic case or example.


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## Whitefield (Jun 9, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > From where do you derive this definition? Locus classicus is "A passage from a classic or standard work that is cited as an illustration or instance." How is that citation reserved to the church and not the individual believer? Would your definition say that Luther and Calvin had no loci classici, because they were individuals?
> ...



I saw those in the dictionary, and I still don't understand how a locus classicus is reserved only for the use of the corporate and not the individual. And I understand the words to basically mean "the highest place" in Latin. Does your definition mean that the individual cannot look or appeal to the highest place?


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## MW (Jun 9, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Does your definition mean that the individual cannot look or appeal to the highest place?



No, it simply means that the term should be used the way it is always used in theological discussion.


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## chbrooking (Jun 9, 2009)

Would it help if I retitle the thread? I don't care what we call it. I'm looking to collect those texts that explicitly lay down doctrines. That is, if you read the OP, I'm wanting to see where the things we believe are explicitly set forth, and where good and necessary consequence connects the dots. 

I just want to see what sort of a collection we can produce as a team.


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## Whitefield (Jun 9, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> Would it help if I retitle the thread? I don't care what we call it. I'm looking to collect those texts that explicitly lay down doctrines. That is, if you read the OP, I'm wanting to see where the things we believe are explicitly set forth, and where good and necessary consequence connects the dots.
> 
> I'm NOT questioning the confessions -- far from it.
> I DON'T CARE if I chose the wrong title.
> ...



Clark, I knew what you meant and didn't think you were challenging or trying to overturn anything. Keep it going, because I've already highlighted a couple of passages in my Bible and written in the comments of those posting.


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## chbrooking (Jun 10, 2009)

How about Acts 17:25 for aseity -- is that clear enough on its own, or does it need another text or two?


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## chbrooking (Jun 10, 2009)

For the trinity: Matt 28:19 (singular) name of F, S, and HS


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## Sven (Jun 10, 2009)

This is a really good project. Here's my 

Col. 2:11,12 for the relationship of circumcision to baptism

John 10:14,15; 26,27 for limited atonement

John 1:1-3 for the deity of Christ


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## chbrooking (Jun 11, 2009)

Rom 4:9-17 and Gal 3:7-9, 14, 16, 27-29 are particularly clear that there is one people of God (contra-Dispensationalism).


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## Prufrock (Jun 11, 2009)

chbrooking said:


> Rom 4:9-17 and Gal 3:7-9 are particularly clear that there is one people of God (contra-Dispensationalism).



Also, Eph. 2:11-19, Gal. 6:16, Matt. 8:11, Rom. 2:28-29


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## chbrooking (Jun 14, 2009)

How about Rom 1:18-32; 8:7; and 1 Cor. 2:14 for the noetic effects of the fall?


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## chbrooking (Jun 17, 2009)

Isa 40.13; 55.8-9; Psa 139.6; 145.3; Job 11.7-9, et al. -- incomprehensibility of God


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 17, 2009)

Phil.1:29; Eph.2:8 -- to have faith or to believe (v) and faith (n) both described as free gifts.


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