# Christian Mission Allience & Reformed



## Cato (May 22, 2010)

Are Christian & Missionary Alliance Ministers capable of becoming Reformed Baptist Ministers...IE do they know enough about the Reformed Baptist Confessions & doctrine to qualify?


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## Steve Curtis (May 22, 2010)

I have a friend who is CMA and solidly a five-pointer. He says that his pastor is as well, though I haven't met him. If his knowledge of Reformed soteriology is as sound as my friend's, then the answer to your question would be "probably" with regard to doctrine, though I don't know about the confessional aspect.


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## N. Eshelman (May 22, 2010)

My parents are CMA (used to be United Methodist). The pastors do not go to seminary (at least from what I have heard). They have Bible College degrees. If a CMA pastor wanted to become Reformed Baptist then they may have to go to seminary first.


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## raekwon (May 22, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> My parents are CMA (used to be United Methodist). The pastors do not go to seminary (at least from what I have heard). They have Bible College degrees. If a CMA pastor wanted to become Reformed Baptist then they may have to go to seminary first.


 
The C&MA has two official seminaries in the US, actually -- one in in Nyack, NY and the other in Redding, CA. It's true that a man doesn't have to hold an M. Div in order to qualify for ordination in the C&MA and that some do go straight to ordination after undergrad work, but many do have graduate degrees in theology/ministry, etc.

(I grew up in the C&MA and once considered youth ministry in that denomination.)


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## Pergamum (May 22, 2010)

I know many solid CM&A folks who I am very happy to have the privelege of knowing. Most are solidly monergistic. And very evangelistic. Most are not as strict ecclesiastically as some RBs and are more broad in those matters, but the ones I know are very good men. Not sure if the majority of them that I know would wholeheartedly subscibe to the 1689 though, but as far as being a little broader and calvy and baptistic, then yes, many are reformed baptistic-ish.


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## Cato (May 25, 2010)

I personally do not think without the Siminary that they are prepared to handle any congregation esp a Reformed one. They will vacillate, confuse their flock & generally not be equipped to handle the diverse groups that will rein down on them.....at least that has been my experience.....Im driving the guy nuts with all my questions, questions he really cant address.


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## KMK (May 25, 2010)

As far their confession goes, I had a CM&A pastor tell me years ago that at the ordination exam there is only one point of their official confession that must be affirmed and that is a Pretrib return of Christ. However, I knew another ordained CM&A pastor who was a vocal Post Tribber. 

Their official statement of faith says this:



> The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is *imminent*(32) and will be personal, visible, and *premillennial*.(33) This is the believer’s blessed hope and is a vital truth which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service.(34)



But, on a different page their website says this about Christ's return:



> Over the last four decades I have read a great many books about the Second Coming of Christ. Unfortunately, most were devoted to predicting when this cataclysmic event will occur (something the Bible explicitly tells us NOT to do), to debating the order of events connected to His return *or to splitting the eschatological “hairs” that separate one group of evangelical believers from another.* All of this speculation entirely misses the point of what the Bible says about the matter. The whole focus of the New Testament’s teaching about the return of Christ can be summarized in two simple propositions: first, because Christ is coming, we need to be ready—living lives that are pure, steadfast, prayerful, holy and reverent; and, second, because Christ is coming, we need to finish the task He has given us—the preaching of the gospel.



I get the feeling that their confession is a 'work in progress', if you know what I mean.


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## raekwon (May 25, 2010)

The C&MA has been a staunchly premillenialist denomination since its beginnings, but yeah, they may be re-examining that position -- or at least re-examining whether or not they want to continue requiring adherence to that position for church membership. (Yes, you have to agree w/ premillenialism to join -- but you don't have to be baptized.)


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## Cato (May 25, 2010)

This Minister told me that he was trained to be Arminan......are they?


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## toddpedlar (May 26, 2010)

Cato The Elder said:


> This Minister told me that he was trained to be Arminan......are they?


 
This is consistent with the experience of family friends of ours who were in C&MA churches in NJ and NY - they finally felt they had to leave their church in NY because they had come to a Calvinistic understanding of soteriology, and couldn't stomach the Arminianism any longer.


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## Cato (May 26, 2010)

Only here you have a C&MA Pastor trying to apply his past training in a Reformed Baptist Church creating a luke warm environment for the congregation.


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## RandPhoenix (May 26, 2010)

I went to Trinity College of Florida, which isn't technically CMA, but all the Presidents of the school have been CMA from the beginning, and it has a very large CMA demographic there in both faculty and student body. The CMA folks here in Florida anyway have been abysmal in their "theology." When I "converted" a friend of mine to Amill, the CMA folks both at the school and in the local "synods" (I don't know what they call their regional groups) they got together and discussed him as if he had abandoned the faith for liberalism. Throughout some of the lousy experiences my friend had, he eventually decided to leave Bible college and the ministry altogether. So I guess you could say I'm rather jaded about the CMA.

I had heard that they were actually going to try and crack down on eschatological views for membership.


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## Cato (May 26, 2010)

Listen I'm not trying to slander here, but to understand. This man is allying himself with a Reformed Baptist church & so Im fairly certain that he has made a consious decision to be a Reformed kinda Elder & Preacher. Just concerned about his ability to teach Reformed Doctrine without outside influence from the past creeping in. The answers to my theological questions early on were ambiguous but lately allot more Reformed oriented.....perhaps its just a work in progress.


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## raekwon (May 26, 2010)

Here's the best think I can tell ya... the Alliance doesn't have an official position on soteriology as far as Calvinism/Arminianism goes. They were founded by a Presbyterian minister (Albert B. Simpson), but were closely tied to the Assemblies of God at the time of both denominations' early days. They've always endeavored to be a "big tent" sort of group that allowed wide range in certain views. I personally know some reformed Alliance folks.

That said, I think that most C&MA churches and pastors default to Arminianism and dispensationalism. That's just kind of how it is. But, there's no reason a C&MA pastor couldn't personally subscribe to, say, the London Baptist Confession (and teach like it).


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## MRC (May 26, 2010)

My experience is that most Alliance pastors avoid doctrine-related issues. My church is CMA and the pastors are "emergent" types, the elders are "board-elders". Watching the hiring process of new pastors out of bible college is not good. Typically they are unsure where they stand on most issues, being unable to even articulate what the differences are between the dispensational and reformed system of theology. When pressed they would basically present a Dispensational understanding, but would be very clear that people are what matters rather than doctrine.

In my opinion the big issue with the CMA denomination is watered-down ordination requirements. I know many ordained Alliance pastors that thought the ordination process almost killed them. When I looked at the reading list and paper writing requirements it describes less than I would typically engage with as a hobby in a year! This lack of thoughtfullness required through ordination has bred weak teaching in the churches.

My opinion.


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## Cato (May 26, 2010)

Thanks....this speaks volumes unfortunately

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

Ray, this Pastor is probably the best at doing a sermon Ive ever heard


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## Pergamum (May 27, 2010)

In SE Asia, the CM&A missionaries have labored diligently among many people groups and have a good record of service. Several of my most respected colleagues on the coast are CM&A and when they preach they preach the Gospel expositionally.


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## Cato (May 27, 2010)

Pergy....It appears that preaching is there gift. Confessional, well not so much.


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## RandPhoenix (May 27, 2010)

I confess I have very little experience with CMA preaching outside of the chapel messages by the president of our school (whose messages were among the absolute worst I've ever heard in my life). My grandmother goes to a CMA church, and when my dad committed suicide, his funeral was held at her church.

It was the worst funeral sermon ever. It was atheological, and it was rambling without a clear point or structure. It left most of us wondering "What was he trying to say? And how is this any comfort to us?" No gospel whatsoever. To hear such a sermon was like adding insult to injury in an already heart-breaking time.


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## Cato (May 27, 2010)

I can top that. My cousin dies right around Christmas & so this Catholic priest comes & frames his eulogy around the carol " Hark The Herald Angels Sing" It was bizarre.


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## RandPhoenix (May 27, 2010)

I always thought that Catholic priests weren't allowed to change their eulogies from the church calendar. So if the church calendar said that it was time to preach something related to Christmas, they had to preach something related to Christmas. Obviously, though, I wouldn't imagine the Church calendar covering something like funerals.


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## MRC (May 27, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> In SE Asia, the CM&A missionaries have labored diligently among many people groups and have a good record of service. Several of my most respected colleagues on the coast are CM&A and when they preach they preach the Gospel expositionally.


 
Praise God for those men's faithfullness! The ones I have heard preach have not exhibited the same approach to preaching.


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## Pergamum (May 27, 2010)

Maybe those ones stay home.


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## DMcFadden (May 27, 2010)

My experience with C&MA is that it is currently a typical broad evangelical denomination. As such, you can probably expect to find a dispensational flavor and an unconsiously Arminian soteriology to be pretty prevalent. However, like most evangelical denominations, there is an AMAZING array of diversity in views (this IS America, don't you know?).

Part of the voluntarist background of most evangelical groups lends itself to a lack of doctrinal uniformity (or even unity!). Most evangelical groups will have examples of just about EVERY kind of theological view acceptable within the "tent" of evangelicalism. Here is a practical experiment. Name one broad evangelical denomination that does not have at least some pastors who are Piper Calvinists, Warren "purpose driven," seeker sensitive, emergent, Geisler anti-Calvinists, Jim Dobson Nazarene-like, or Philip Yancy "edgy" and critical. Moreover, name one broad evangelical denomination that does not have some professional youth pastors who think that Brian McLaren and Rob Bell are cool (the kind who might hear a prof say πνευμα and think that he is talking about Nooma).


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## Cato (May 27, 2010)

Naaaa, but being raised RC I can testify to big differences from generation to generation. There is no such thing as "Fire & Brimstone" anymore & a lot of the tough rigorous doctrine guys from the community are retired or dead. Whats left are the wimps & pedophiles, not real men of God. Don't ask, don't tell mentality! Just keep your kids away from them. Sad very sad!

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

Dennis.....you said it *"typical broad evangelical denomination"*

And that kinda stuff makes me want to vomit. Does the whole world have to be New Jersey?


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## raekwon (May 27, 2010)

Hah. FYI, Steve, I lived in Oxford, NJ as a child (near Hackettstown).


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## Cato (May 27, 2010)

No kidding Ray.....so how is Columbus treating you?

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

Like Costco, the C&MA seems to plant their churches in affluent communities and be very deliberate in demanding money for development. In one affluent town, they fired a minister because he couldn't raise a money for church expansion. Like duh, there is a recession going on.

---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

that should be "Raise enough Money"


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## alhembd (May 29, 2010)

Dear Kainos01,

I am a former C&MA member myself. If your friend is C&MA and is a five-point Calvinist, then the denomination or the local bishop is looking the other way, because one of the official doctrinal tenets of that church is that "Christ died for all men." So, the only way one can fully subscribe to their official doctrine and be a Calvinist at the same time is to be an Amyraldian.

With respect to C&MA ministers becoming Reformed Baptists, be advised that Al Martin was himself originally C&MA, and he broke off from that denomination to found the Reformed Baptists. You might want to check with the Al Martin people for more information on that.

Al Hembd


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## KMK (May 29, 2010)

alhembd said:


> Dear Kainos01,
> 
> I am a former C&MA member myself. If your friend is C&MA and is a five-point Calvinist, then the denomination or the local bishop is looking the other way, because one of the official doctrinal tenets of that church is that "Christ died for all men." So, the only way one can fully subscribe to their official doctrine and be a Calvinist at the same time is to be an Amyraldian.
> 
> ...


 
Universal atonement is not an 'official' doctrine of the C&MA that I can find.

From the statement of faith.



> Jesus Christ is the true God and the true man.(4) He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.(5) *He died upon the cross, the Just for the unjust,(6) as a substitutionary sacrifice,*(7) and all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.


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## Cato (May 29, 2010)

My point Albert is that this guy is now RB but he still retains remnant thoughts of his days in C&MA & it shows in his answers to questions he provided to me. He went to a Banner of Truth Conference this week so hopefully they helped him work it out of his system. Btw this guy isnt affiliated with Al Martin & the church he built in Montville NJ (they are independent) Martin is also retired.


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