# big problem



## nonconformist (May 25, 2005)

I read greens literal translation because I want the most dogmatically accurate word for word translation.I have been telling peaple we have a will but no free will and that you cannot find it in the bible.But unfortunately I found it in the litv.I am hoping this is a mistranslation because I love my newfound calvinism.Can somone help me and give me an accurate explanation.This really messes up my theology Lev 19:5

(ESV) "When you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted. 

(KJV+) And if3588 ye offer2076 a sacrifice2077 of peace offerings8002 unto the LORD,3068 ye shall offer2076 it at your own will.7522 

(LITV) And if you sacrifice a sacrifice of peace offerings to Jehovah, you shall sacrifice it of your free will;


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 25, 2005)

There is a big difference between a free will, being able to freely make decisions, and the Arminian doctrine of Free Will (which entails that we can resist God's will and overthrow His desires and decrees).


----------



## BobVigneault (May 25, 2005)

When anyone wants to discuss free will with me I always begin with a definition. I define 'free will' as "the ability to choose freely that which we desire the most". Even armininians seem to be happy with this definition.

From there I can take the discussion to our nature and/or natures and our desires. At regeneration our desires are changed and we are free not to sin. We also find the ability to freely choose to sacrifice to and worship the God whom we once hated by our nature when we were not free.

You will find the words 'free will' quite frequently in puritan writings but as Gabriel said, it doesn't mean what the arminians have corrupted it to mean.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 25, 2005)

Here is the Arminian view of "Free Will," straight from an Arminian (if you can stomach it):



> "Athough human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation."
> 
> (David N. Steele & Curtis C. Thomas, _The Five Points of Calvinism_, p. 16)


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 25, 2005)




----------



## ReformedWretch (May 25, 2005)

Look at this answer I got on another forum!



> If you had five children who were all blind and heading for the edge of a cliff, and you called out to two of them to stop, while letting the other three continue off the cliff, what kind of a father would that make you?
> 
> On the other hand, if you called out to all of them, but three refused to pay you any heed and went over the cliff, now that's different.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 25, 2005)

False analogy. The blind children would also have to hate you, murder your entire family, spit in your face daily, and burn your house to the ground, all while laughing at you, mocking you, and telling you that you don't matter or exist.


----------



## nonconformist (May 25, 2005)

Thanks guys,I guess I have more studying to do on the subject.I just thought I had it all together until I read that verse.The questions I have is 1.What are we free from?God 2.How can God be totally in control if we have a free will.I do not want to be in control anymore I make to many mistakes


----------



## JohnV (May 25, 2005)

You have to keep a clear distinction between what Arminians call free will and what the Canons of Dort calls free will. They are not the same at all. Jonathan Edwards makes this quite clear. So a clear definition of free will is needed, but then you need a whole lot more about what you don't mean by it. The difference is like night and day.


----------



## JohnV (May 25, 2005)

Example: (taken from the above Arminian view of free will)



> Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it.


The Calvinist would say that each sinner possesses a free will, but his eternal destiny can in no way depend on it. So it is clear that the Calvinist means something a whole lot different by it. Machen says that choosing for Christ is not a meritorious work, but an act of submission, enabled by God. In other words, man's will is as that of a created being, while God's will is that of a sovereign being. The Arminians blurr the distinction.


----------



## DocCas (May 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 1.What are we free from?God


Our will is either in bondage to sin, or has been freed from that bondage by the atonement. When the bible speaks of "free will" it is talking about the will, once in bondage to sin and death, having been set free from the law of sin and death and is now set free to follow Christ.


> 2.How can God be totally in control if we have a free will.I do not want to be in control anymore I make to many mistakes


Our will is not free in the sense of "free to do whatever you want to do." Our will is either in bondage to sin and death, or it has been set free from that bondage to follow Christ, and, of its own now free will, become a willing bond servant to Christ.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 25, 2005)

A few good studies on free will include:

Jonathan Edward's _On the Freedom of the Will_

Martin Luther's _The Bondage of the Will_

John Calvin _On Free Will_

More resources available here.


----------



## nonconformist (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DocCas_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> ...


This seems to make it clear


----------



## nonconformist (May 26, 2005)

Thanks guys for the help and the resources


----------



## larryjf (May 26, 2005)

As i think someone else said in this thread, actual free will is the fact that we are free to do "what we desire most". Technically that makes our will a slave to our desires. 

Think about how Jesus teaches that our heart (the seat of our desires), not our will, controls the mouth...

You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
(Mat 12:34)

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 
(Mat 15:18-19)

If our will were free, and not dependant on anything - we would be crazy. Think about your will not being a slave to your desires - you may take a shower because you were hungry. It would make no sense at all. We would be acting insane...


----------



## RamistThomist (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> A few good studies on free will include:
> 
> Jonathan Edward's _On the Freedom of the Will_
> ...



Rushdoony called Luther's work one of the most important documents in the history of human thought. Not bad, eh? Bondage of the Will is one of the most pivotal books in my theology.


----------



## nonconformist (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by larryjf_
> As i think someone else said in this thread, actual free will is the fact that we are free to do "what we desire most". Technically that makes our will a slave to our desires.
> 
> Think about how Jesus teaches that our heart (the seat of our desires), not our will, controls the mouth...
> ...


This makes sense now,WHAT WE DESIRE MOST,when I was a drug addict I had absolutely no free will,I had absolutely no control over my actions,now that I am a christian,my desire is bible and theology,if god is in total control then we cannot have a free will otherwise his control cannot be total but partial.If he made the beginning and the end and knows everything in between and (IF) he is in total control we cannot have a free will that is an impossible concept.Otherwise his control cannot be total but partial.I just looked up will in the strongs it means desire.I dont think we have a freewill


----------



## nonconformist (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...


No kidding,Rushdoony has been the biggest influance on my christianity.When God led me to his ministry and book (The institutes of biblical law) I realized it was published on my date of birth 1973.When he died in the year 2001 it was on the exact day feb 8 of my birthday.Coincidence or is god truely in control.If rushdoony said that about the book I have got to get it immediately.FREEWILLsorry I think not


----------



## nonconformist (May 28, 2005)

this has bean a great post


----------



## nonconformist (May 29, 2005)

I suppose it would be more accurate to say we have freedom,instead of free will


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 29, 2005)

Not sure if there is a such thing as "free" will. You either do the will of your father who is the devil or you align your will to the will of God. Either way, your will is by no means "free."

Your will is involved with obedience to God's law once you become a partaker of the New Covenant. Just as Adam had a will to choose, so do you.

The unregenerate "can" not (John 6:44) and "will" not (John 5:40) come to know God. They are physically and mentally incapable of accepting God. Their "will" is aligned with the will of the devil (enslaved, not free).

The believer's will is circumcised to conform to the will of God which is obedience to His law. Still, your will is not free.


----------



## nonconformist (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Not sure if there is a such thing as "free" will. You either do the will of your father who is the devil or you align your will to the will of God. Either way, your will is by no means "free."
> 
> Your will is involved with obedience to God's law once you become a partaker of the New Covenant. Just as Adam had a will to choose, so do you.
> ...


Great answer,that is what I wanted to hear.


----------



## Rich Barcellos (May 31, 2005)

I believe in "free will" according to the Confession (WCF IX). Man can and does always choose (freely) according to the inclination of his heart.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 31, 2005)

Our will can only choose what our heart is inclined towards.



> The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen 6:5)
> 
> And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, "œI will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done." (Gen 8:21)
> 
> But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. (Matthew 15:18-19)



[Edited on 5-31-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 31, 2005)

Man has free agency but not free will. You have confines... laws to which you are subject to on both sides of the fence. Your only choice as a believer is to obey or disobey the law of God. Choice... yes. Free... no.

Under the New Covenant, you undergo a heart transplant by God Himself. He removes your heart of stone and gives you a new heart of flesh. He provides a heart to know Him. In addition, He writes His law in your heart and in your mind. He provides His Spirit also. Why?... so that the Spirit will lead you in the path of righteousness. A regenerate heart loves the law and applies the Spirit; however, your will is still present to choose disobedience.

If your heart is not inclined towards righteousness... you may need to check what manner of spirit is working within. It may not be God's.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 31, 2005)

Well, David - a regenerate person - still had to pray to the Lord to incline his heart to righteous things and away from evil. We should never be so sure of ourselves, even as believers, b/c we always need God's power and strength to keep us in line with His ways.


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 31, 2005)

This is part of your renewing day-by-day. Prayer, I believe, is also a form of worship... something God expects of His people. A continual sprinkling is also a provision of the New Covenant as Christ is our High Priest at the Throne. Prayer, confession & repentance allow you to draw near to God. Prayer is a responsibility you have as high priest over your body which is the temple of the Living God.

King David had a means of Grace. Hindsight is 20/20 for you and now, as a partaker of the New Covenant, I'm not sure we have much of an excuse for willful & continuous disobedience to the law. You have the law in your heart as well as His Spirit (the equipment to obey the law).

Under the New Covenant, you have the Spirit and the law. This is a wonderful provision. You have God's power if you have His Spirit. On the flip side, you also have a will to choose contrary to the Spirit.


----------

