# Need InDesign advice



## Leslie (Jan 7, 2014)

Sometime ago I posted an inquiry about how to do typography/lay-out for the Village Medical Manual. The bottom line was a recommended typography book and InDesign. I ordered the typography book which was mailed on 29 December and should be here in another 2 weeks if it's not stolen. My organization ordered InDesign on CD's as an NGO/non-profit. A friend is hand-carrying that; it will be here the end of February. 

Now my question is *how do I start learning the basics of what I need to know.* The factual material and art is almost completed. It is in Word files. Hard-copy instruction works better for me than tutorials. On the other hand, having my secretary in the States buy a book and mail it is very expensive and very slow and very unreliable (the local postal service specializes in thievery). I found "Adobe InDesign CS6 Classroom in a book" available on Kindle. Is it possible to print out from a Kindle? My Kindle tablet is broken; I have Kindle for PC on my laptop. But it's the same laptop that I'm hoping to use to actually do the layout. It may be awkward to read the instruction and do the layout on the same screen. When I travel to London in March, it will be possible to buy another Kindle tablet, but that's a long time to wait. An alternative is if someone could suggest some freebie downloadable layout program that is conceptually similar to InDesign (but simpler), I could download and play with it, spend time learning something rather than just spinning my wheels. 

The bottom line is that I'd like some advice as to how to go about learning what needs to be learned by some accessible medium, in order to successfully do the lay-out.


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## Tirian (Jan 7, 2014)

Is there a problem with you getting the Adobe InDesign Trial software? I'm fairly certain that if your friend already has the CD's that you can convert the trial to full version using the online registration process.

But to begin with, use the trial version as you get it immediate. Unless I am missing something....


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## Logan (Jan 7, 2014)

If you're looking to get started on the basic principles of typography, layout, and design, I found the following very helpful, it is in PDF but could certainly be printed out if that's preferred.

CTAN: Package memdesign

If you're looking specifically for an InDesign starter, perhaps Chris can help.


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## CharlieJ (Jan 7, 2014)

Just watch tutorials on Youtube. Seriously.


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## Tirian (Jan 7, 2014)

Logan said:


> CTAN: Package memdesign



wow - that is a really useful resource. Thanks!


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## Logan (Jan 7, 2014)

Are you into typography Matt? Or thinking about it?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 7, 2014)

I think online tutorials/videos is the way to go. Adobe has some on their Adobe TV
InDesign Help | InDesign getting started tutorials


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## Logan (Jan 7, 2014)

One other thing, since you asked: Scribus is free and if I understand correctly, is probably the closest thing to InDesign you'll find, certainly the closest free thing. However, I have no clue how close it is to InDesign and it might actually be detrimental to practice with it, I don't know. I'd focus on typographical principles for now or use the InDesign tutorials others have suggested.

I'm pretty sure you cannot print kindle books from any (legal) program.


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## littlepeople (Jan 7, 2014)

The help files built into adobe actually do a really good job of explaining the process step by step. As has been said, get the free trial, and you have 30 days to figure it out, and probably get the project done.


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## jwithnell (Jan 7, 2014)

The main difference between learning Pagemaker 20 years ago and learning InDesign now is that you can type questions into a Google search and often come up with very good answers. Many of the answers will come in the form of videos. I don't much like to sit and watch something ahead of time, but find it helpful while I'm working to get specific info. Having a basic guide in some form will be handy, but jumping in and trying this and that with a trial document will go a long way.

Here are a few pointers to get you started:

Create a new document so you have something to play with (upper left-hand corner, File, I think). You will be given a document creation menu with choices that are fairly intuitive and can be changed later if you want. Don't worry about bleed or slug for now -- they mostly apply to pictures that go off the edge of a printed page or give a place to leave information on your work surface outside your document.

Up in the right hand corner of your InDesign window, you will be given a choice of work spaces -- in the drop down menu, select "typography" and you will have many helpful tools at your finger tips. When in doubt, look around that top banner on your screen and you will likely find choices to try. Your tools down the left side are fairly intuitive and are fairly consistent now across Adobe products and will often change the selections you can make in the top banner of choices. Your work space selection will change what appears in boxes on the right portion of your screen. 

In this right panel, your new best friend is "paragraph styles." Assign one to _every_ piece of text and you can change headers, cutlines, body text, whatever on hundreds of pages with a simple change in the paragraph style. This will even control tabs, spacing around a paragraph, type sizes, leading, paragraph indentation, hyphenation, etc. (BTW, hyphenation seems to default to "on" which drives me nuts).

Keep in mind, that Adobe has adopted a frames orientation. So everything -- graphics, text, pictures, etc will have a frame. I find it helpful to create a text frame first (the T in the tool bar on the left hand size). Drag it to fit the space you will fill with text.

Across the top in the drop-down menu for "Objects" you can access formatting for your text box for things like numbers of columns, space between column, etc). I had some head-banging-against-the-wall experiences until I realized how quickly you can change things using this Objects-Text box formatting. (I don't think it existed when I came into InDesign at CS 4, but I could be wrong.) Also, once you have a bunch of stuff on the page, InDesign may not know what you are trying to select to move/change etc. This Objects Menu helps you to "tell" it what to select by moving backward and forward in what you may have put on top of each other. (Layers can also help a lot, but that can come later if you haven't worked with them before. I_ live _by layers.)

Your work in Word won't be wasted -- it is generally best to use a word processor, then "place" your text in InDesign (control or command D inside a text box). You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you clear all styles in Word before placing your text, then do all your formatting in InDesign. Eliminate any extra spaces you make with the spacebar or return key. 


Adobe also has a strong on-line community and "help" resources.


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## Jack K (Jan 7, 2014)

Leslie said:


> An alternative is if someone could suggest some freebie downloadable layout program that is conceptually similar to InDesign (but simpler)



InDesign is pretty simple given what it can do. I can't imagine anything conceptually similar and also simpler. The makers of InDesign are very good at simplicity. The only reason it's at all difficult is because there's so much you can do with it. If you're working on a whole book and have InDesign coming, InDesign is what you want to use and practice on.

My thought is that online tutorials and forums will be sufficient, even if you tend to prefer books. I prefer books too, but haven't invested in one for InDesign. The help I find online is not necessarily as handy as a book, but always sufficient for me.


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## Tirian (Jan 7, 2014)

Logan said:


> Are you into typography Matt? Or thinking about it?



I'm doing a bit of print & digital work for our church and related ministries. I studied User Interface Design in my degree 20 odd years ago and so I achieve some measure of success applying those skills to typesetting and layouts.

It was interesting reading that book you linked to - particularly on the Fibonnacci theory in terms of layout. It interesting that what "feels" right when I am laying stuff out seems to have some basis in good theory. 

The section on letter-spacing was also eye-opening in terms of readability.

so, thanks!


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## Leslie (Jan 8, 2014)

Very helpful. I'll get the 30 day trial and the pdf explanation, consult the tutorials if necessary. There is a problem with paying for anything online here. It is total insanity to enter a credit card number into any electronic system in Africa, the "security" doesn't matter. However, I have a couple prepaid cards, which would limit my loss. So it's not impossible, just somewhat risky. Thanks to all of you for your help. #10 was particularly helpful; I made extensive notes.


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## Logan (Jan 8, 2014)

Tirian said:


> It was interesting reading that book you linked to - particularly on the Fibonnacci theory in terms of layout. It interesting that what "feels" right when I am laying stuff out seems to have some basis in good theory.
> 
> The section on letter-spacing was also eye-opening in terms of readability.



Excellent! You're already too far gone for me to warn you that you'll never look at things the same 

The memdesign book is really good for a starter but I really, really like Bringhurst's book. It's one of the few technical books I've been able to just sit down and read through. He does cover a good bit of history and some of the mathematics behind certain things and makes me appreciate just how much thought and art has gone into typography over the years...and how much we're losing now that everyone "publishes" Word documents etc.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 8, 2014)

I didn't follow the linked material but I would ditto Bringhurst, which was eyeopening to me also. I used the 'golden layout' for my (pull out the stops) experiment in letterpress printing/hand binding on the MS of the Larger Catechism project I did a few years back (see here), but modified for footnotes. I modified that form a bit again for the edition of the sermons of Gillespie, Baillie, Rutherford and Henderson (Scots Commissioners' Sermons). While proportionally pleasing however it is not very practical when a book needs to be handled economically (paper, book length). So I went back to a more traditional layout for the 2013 revised English Popish Ceremonies. 
The Elements of Typographic Style: Robert Bringhurst: 9780881792065: Amazon.com: Books


Logan said:


> particularly on the Fibonnacci theory


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## Leslie (Jan 8, 2014)

The Elements of Typographical Style is in the mail, on its way here. I'm saying a prayer that it won't be stolen. 

Question: I've completely formatted the manuscript of the Village Medical Manual, 25 files in Word, with about 500 illustrations and captions inserted, multiple tables, flow charts and all that. *How much of this formatting do I need to take out before using InDesign?* I noted above that the various styles need to be removed. Do the illustrations and tables also need to be removed? How about the flow charts which consist in yes/no questions with arrows leading to other questions, tables, or lists, depending on whether the answer is yes or no.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 9, 2014)

I missed something I guess; why do the styles have to be removed? You don't have to remove any formatting; import into InDesign and then use its features to edit styles globally. For instance if you have italics tagged in Word as an "Italics" word style, or an indented paragraph tagged as "block text" as a paragraph style, those tags import into InDesign. I've never tried importing all that kind of variety of material from one file. You will have to experiment with a file and see what comes in and what InDesign does with it all. And it may not be consistent. If there are footnotes or endnotes in the import you will need to check those options to be 'on" in the import options. Also if you are designing for print and digital publication you will need to take the limitations/dictates of the electronic platform into consideration. If it were me, I would design the print book I wanted and then make an interactive pdf available.


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## Leslie (Jan 9, 2014)

This helps. I'll try importing, keeping all the styles etc. How about the pictures that are already placed? In one of the videos (it was dealing with another subject), the presenter seemed to import a completed brochure and then proceeded to lift this and that picture off it to put in her new document. 
I just spent most of the day watching one video after another. It's still confusing, but gradually the fog is lifting; I'm starting to get the idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate your responding to my questions.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 9, 2014)

There's nothing like trial and error and digging into the program when you have it up and running will be the best learning curve. In theory the inline graphics should import; but I've never done that. There is also an option to check on or off called "make captions static" which implies at least that captions import some way. Hopefully you will not have to adjust to many things but just from the nature of page breaks etc. you will be needing to adjust graphics, tables etc. Tables "should" import but I've only simply done the fresh since it is not something I commonly deal with. Just one thing to note; on import options you will want to check "use typographers" quotation marks or they will come in as straight instead of a left and right hand pair.


Leslie said:


> This helps. I'll try importing, keeping all the styles etc. How about the pictures that are already placed? In one of the videos (it was dealing with another subject), the presenter seemed to import a completed brochure and then proceeded to lift this and that picture off it to put in her new document.
> I just spent most of the day watching one video after another. It's still confusing, but gradually the fog is lifting; I'm starting to get the idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate your responding to my questions.


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## Leslie (Jan 9, 2014)

Wonderful. Very helpful. It's storming now, but after this is past, probably in the middle of the night, I'll download the CS6 which is what is coming late February. After today, I'm ready to take the plunge.


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## jwithnell (Jan 9, 2014)

> I missed something I guess; why do the styles have to be removed?


I thought Mary was starting from scratch and would be essentially importing text from Word. It's certainly worth a go. I have noticed that Adobe tends to assume you are a professional and if you want to do something outside of conventions, just do it. Word seems to make assumptions for you and sometimes can make problems for in InDesign paragraph styles and also sometimes has formatting buried deeply; for example, an odd space might show up over in Adobe that you just can't "get to" to fix. Adobe may have fixed some of the text placing problems, but the extreme frustrations I've had in the past in this regard -- especially when receiving copy from other people -- have me wary. I still see problems coming out of Word and into web formating. I've become so paranoid about this that I'll scrub text by copying it into word pad before copying and pasting it in over on a website. If something odd-ball is happening in InDesign, I'll take the same precaution. 

But it's certainly worth trying to see if your Word formatting will carry over. You can always create a new document and try again. I'd suggest doing a small trial-run with just a couple of pages. You'll want to look up InDesign text flow to get everything working across multiple columns and/or pages. You are also going to want to take a look at master pages. These will enable you to have a general format for your two-page spreads and special formats for, say, the first page of a chapter, a page that just contains tables, table of contents, etc. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions where I can help.




> Excellent! You're already too far gone for me to warn you that you'll never look at things the same


Absolutely! Type is fascinating, and everywhere. We received something in the mail the other day, and my husband just rolled his eyes when I noted what a nice job the company had done with its lettering on the box.


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## Leslie (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for the help. Word has given us problems with hidden formatting. I've deleted and retyped in whole sections on occasion. The project is large, the last edition 800 pages letter-size, this one slightly larger and with 678 illustrations. Most of the text is newer, but there are a few places where it was originally entered on my Kaypro in 1984. 

I did the download but am having trouble with the installation. Will pursue this and ask questions if it's still problematic after I give it a try.


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## jwithnell (Jan 9, 2014)

Adobe help is generally pretty good when you're trying to install products. Also, they made big changes going into either their CS 6 or the new Creative Cloud versions of their products, so some of the videos generically posted on line might have an interface that looks quite different. Many of the functions are similar, but with refinements.


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## Leslie (Jan 12, 2014)

I tried to install the free trial, but it failed. A couple retries failed. Then there was a notice that I needed to have Adobe Application Manager Enterprise Edition. So I downloaded that. Then a screen came up asking if I wanted Installation Package; Trial Package; Serialization File; New Update Package; or Modify Existing Package. I assume the last two options were not appropriate, but I didn't know which of the others to check. Then my internet connection went down; it's still down, so I'm using the church office computer which is up. Questions:
1. Is this Adobe Application Manager Enterprise Edition necessary?
2. If it's necessary, do I need to pay for it and how much? The screen has not mentioned money yet. If it costs, then I need to have a prepaid credit card ready.
3. Which of the options should I check: Installation Package, Trial Package, or Serialization File?

Thanks for being there. I purchased the Classroom in a Book and read through the relevant sections on my Kindle for PC. Due to the internet problems, I was not able to do the exercises, but with taking notes and visualizing the whole project seems doable rather than overwhelming. It's a big encouragement. The big question now is whether InDesign will preserve some or all of my formatting in Word, and whether the 672 illustrations will need to be reset.


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