# Whore of Babylon



## Osage Bluestem (Mar 31, 2010)

Do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon written of in Revelation 17?


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## louis_jp (Mar 31, 2010)

Yes.


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## Theogenes (Mar 31, 2010)

I do as well.


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## JennyG (Mar 31, 2010)

and Yes. 

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

this could end up the most concise thread on record (if I haven't already spoilt it by stepping out of line to say so)


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## Romans922 (Mar 31, 2010)

Why do we also talk about the Roman Catholics, what about the Eastern Orthodox? (attempt to make it less concise)


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## jjraby (Mar 31, 2010)

not that I disagree, but could you expound a little. what in this chapter could be reverenced to the Catholic Church?


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## E Nomine (Mar 31, 2010)

I believe the Whore of Babylon is Jerusalem. Her description in Revelation parallels old testament descriptions of Jerusalem as the unfaithful bride, turned harlot.


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## Osage Bluestem (Mar 31, 2010)

jjraby said:


> not that I disagree, but could you expound a little. what in this chapter could be reverenced to the Catholic Church?


 
Here is Revelation Chapter 17 KJV


[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The underlined parts are those that make people think of the Roman Catholic Church. Verse 9 (Rome has 7 hills) and Verse 18 tell us that it is a city, Rome, maybe.


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## Puritan Scot (Mar 31, 2010)

The Papacy and the church it represents has all the hallmarks of the Whore of Babylon referred to in Revelation 17.


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## baron (Apr 1, 2010)

I think it represents Jerusalem. Does not Jerusalem also sit on seven hills? At least that's what I've been told.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 1, 2010)

I believe it's Jerusalem {I'm also an early dater of the Revelation}.


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## Kevin (Apr 1, 2010)

No. It can only be Jerusalem.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 1, 2010)

baron said:


> I think it represents Jerusalem. Does not Jerusalem also sit on seven hills? At least that's what I've been told.


 


BobVigneault said:


> I believe it's Jerusalem {I'm also an early dater of the Revelation}.


 


Kevin said:


> No. It can only be Jerusalem.


 
Why? When had Jerusalem ruled over the kings of the earth? When has the world been in business with her? It looks a lot like it refers to Rome to me.

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------




Romans922 said:


> Why do we also talk about the Roman Catholics, what about the Eastern Orthodox? (attempt to make it less concise)


 
The EO aren't headed by the papacy. The papacy is an anti-christian office.


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## Kevin (Apr 1, 2010)

The main problem with your theory David is that it asks us to believe that John wrote a letter to some people that he knew (7 churches), to warn them of danger, he repeatedly told them that what he was talking about was coming "soon" (from their perspective) yet the threat that he warned them about would not exist until hundreds of years AFTER they died.

That is not taking the text seriously in my opinion.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 1, 2010)

Kevin said:


> The main problem with your theory David is that it asks us to believe that John wrote a letter to some people that he knew (7 churches), to warn them of danger, he repeatedly told them that what he was talking about was coming "soon" (from their perspective) yet the threat that he warned them about would not exist until hundreds of years AFTER they died.
> 
> That is not taking the text seriously in my opinion.


 
Jesus said he was coming soon. Apparently his idea of soon and ours are different. It's been 2000 years.


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## Jack K (Apr 1, 2010)

If we begin with the view that Scripture is clear and has distinct meaning, and therefore the imagery was designed to be clear enough to the original hearers for them to have at least some inkling of what was meant, then it cannot be the Roman Church. At least not as a primary interpretation. Of course, some Biblical prophecy has meaning first in the immediate setting and then a further meaning revealed in later times. But I try to be very careful before assigning a secondary meaning that conveniently denounces the enemy of the day, no matter how deserving.

Now, _applying_ what we learn from the interpretation as a warning against today's powerful and worldly "beasts" is another matter. In this sense, the passage may apply to our dealings with, and God's judgment on, certain churches.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 1, 2010)

Jack K said:


> If we begin with the view that Scripture is clear and has distinct meaning, and therefore the imagery was designed to be clear enough to the original hearers for them to have at least some inkling of what was meant, then it cannot be the Roman Church. At least not as a primary interpretation. Of course, some Biblical prophecy has meaning first in the immediate setting and then a further meaning revealed in later times. But I try to be very careful before assigning a secondary meaning that conveniently denounces the enemy of the day, no matter how deserving.
> 
> Now, _applying_ what we learn from the interpretation as a warning against today's powerful and worldly "beasts" is another matter. In this sense, the passage may apply to our dealings with, and God's judgment on, certain churches.


 
Perhaps it meant Rome as in the empire and the secondary meaning is the RCC. Perhaps Rome itself is a city on seven hills destined to be evil at all times?


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## dudley (Apr 1, 2010)

Puritan Scot said:


> The Papacy and the church it represents has all the hallmarks of the Whore of Babylon referred to in Revelation 17.



I concur with Puritan Scott that the Papacy and the church it represents has all the hallmarks of the Whore of Babylon referred to in Revelation 17. We who are Reformed Protestants also view the pope as the antichrist as is stated in the WCF and the LBC. I personally believe the papacy is an antichrist institution. As a Reformed Protestant I renounce the pope and Roman catholicism on the same grounds the reformers did. I do think that Romans 922 also makes a good point that the the Eastern Orthodox have many trappings of an antichrist system also. However I think we who are Reformed Protestants openly renounce the Roman catholic church because our Protestant heritage stems from the Protestant reformation and the Reformers who had their dispute with Rome not Constantinople and the Eastern church. We must remember it was the Roman Catholic church in the west that Luther tried to reform from within and it was the Roman church that Calvin, Knox and Zwigli and all the reformers separated from because their efforts to reform her from within became futile. I think I have a kinship of understanding that perspective because I like the reformers left and renounced the Roman catholic church and the pope because it was that institution I belived became hopeless for reform from within. The current sex scandals relating all the way to the top in the Vatican I think further attests to the profound corruptness of the Roman church and many of her teachings that run contradictory to scripture and in some cases even natural law, the unnatural and even abominable teaching of celebacy for their clergy. I also can also see as several others here mentioned in an early dating of Revelation the imagery of Jerusalem.


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## Kevin (Apr 1, 2010)

DD2009 said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > The main problem with your theory David is that it asks us to believe that John wrote a letter to some people that he knew (7 churches), to warn them of danger, he repeatedly told them that what he was talking about was coming "soon" (from their perspective) yet the threat that he warned them about would not exist until hundreds of years AFTER they died.
> ...



David, Jesus did exactly what he said He would do. He said that he would come, and He did. 

Also, He did more then say soon, He said within the lifetime of His hearers... the timeline is clear.


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## jambo (Apr 1, 2010)

No-but he certainly fits the description


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 1, 2010)

Kevin said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin said:
> ...


 
Revelation 22:12-13 KJV
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

This event has not yet occured.


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## JBaldwin (Apr 1, 2010)




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## Kevin (Apr 1, 2010)

David, does your interpretation of R22:13 require the creation of the world to take place at the end of time? You seem to be suggesting the idea that "omega", "the end", & "the last" are references to the the "..come quickly..." moment in v12. 

If so, then is the "alpha" refered to the creation? And does it take place at the same time?


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 1, 2010)

Kevin said:


> David, does your interpretation of R22:13 require the creation of the world to take place at the end of time? You seem to be suggesting the idea that "omega", "the end", & "the last" are references to the the "..come quickly..." moment in v12.
> 
> If so, then is the "alpha" refered to the creation? And does it take place at the same time?


 
I believe that when he says he is the alpha and omega he is saying that he is the beginning and the end of everything we know. All things were created through him. He said he is coming soon. I believe this means his physical return to earth to collect his people before he destroys it and creates a new one.

I believe that Christ is reigning right now at the right hand of God the Father. I believe that the thousand years are symbolic. I believe the tribulation is happening now at the same time as the millenial reign. I believe that Christ could come back any time as soon as the Father gives the word that the tribulation is over and it's time to get going.


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