# Crossing the Line



## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

Where would you draw the line if you wanted to find a church to become a member of, but you were unable to find what you considered to be a doctrinally sound church in your area? Would you join a church that's seeker sensitive? or one that fellowships with the catholic church on occasion? or a dispensational church? female deacons? how different from what you're looking for can the church be before the church crosses the line? 

Keeping in mind that there's no perfect church, where would you draw the line?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 18, 2004)

[quote:d66e6fd222]
Would you join a church that's seeker sensitive? 
[/quote:d66e6fd222]

No.


[quote:d66e6fd222]
or one that fellowships with the catholic church on occasion?
[/quote:d66e6fd222]

No.


[quote:d66e6fd222]
or a dispensational church?[/quote:d66e6fd222]

Depends on what you mean. James M. Boice was eschatologically dispensational, but on other points was very Reformed.


[quote:d66e6fd222]
female deacons? 
[/quote:d66e6fd222]

No. This means they are liberal on their views concerning the role of men and women in the church.


[quote:d66e6fd222]
how different from what you're looking for can the church be before the church crosses the line? 
[/quote:d66e6fd222]

This is subjective. It depends on what you can live with and what you cannot. Say for instacne that the man who gives announcements renders levity often, but the rest of the service did not tromp on the Regulative Principle, I would stomache that for the sake of a good worship service. But if the service itself iss tromping on the RP and the preaching is catering to the whims and facnies of the people, and a full-fledged Arminian who hates Calvinism can sit through the service for months without cringing, then its tiem to leave.

[quote:d66e6fd222]
where would you draw the line?
[/quote:d66e6fd222]

Character of the pastor, vision, desire for reformation, preaching ability, ministerial affectivenss, elder's support of reformation all have to be taken into account.


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

[b:4fac9d25fa]Matthew wrote:[/b:4fac9d25fa]
[quote:4fac9d25fa]
or a dispensational church?[/quote:4fac9d25fa]
Depends on what you mean. James M. Boice was eschatologically dispensational, but on other points was very Reformed.

I'm not real familiar with James Boice, other than listening to some of the excellent verse-by-verse radio messages he gave on the book of John. Just wondering, would James Boice be considered to be a progressive dispensationalist? I suppose if a reformed baptist and a presbyterian can be in agreement on certain aspects of the reformed faith, so can a dispensationalist. 

So, if somebody soteriologically was in agreement with the &quot;five points of Calvinism&quot;, would you join the church and just put up with the other stuff?

The dispensationalism that I'm referring to is what I'll call &quot;classic&quot; dispensationalism, closely aligned with the teachings/bible of Scofield. There is a total disconnect between the OT and the NT, the church and Israel, etc. You will not find the church in the OT. Many, if not most, of the books of the Bible are said to be for the nation of Israel, though we can glean from the principles of the entire Bible. etc. 

Bob


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## wsw201 (Feb 18, 2004)

Bob,

After 20+ years of being an Elder, I have compiled a list of what the perfect Church is and one that everyone would want to go to:

1. First and foremost, the Church must meet your felt needs. This self denial stuff is quaint but lets get real. It's all about you!

2. Bigger is better. It proves that the Spirit is working in that Church.

3. Youth Program! Youth Program! If the kids are not happy, you are not happy and not getting your needs met. Besides, the Church is responsible for the moral upbringing of Covenant children and a good Youth Program can do that. Parents don't have the time deal with all that Bible teaching. That's what the Youth Program and Sunday School is for.

4. The service should not last more than an hour. If they go any longer something is wrong. The Church must know that the game starts at noon.

5. Sermons should not last more than 20 minutes and must be relevant to you.

6. Sermons should also be at a level that a 3 year old can understand. Stay away from Pastors who use big words like justification and propitiation. Kids don't understand these words and won't get anything out of the sermon, which will make them unhappy. And if the kids are unhappy, you'll be unhappy, which means your needs are not being met. (Note: kids church is the best way to go. Who wants a bunch of whiny kids messing up the "fellowship" time anyway.)

7. The snooze factor. This is very important. The service has to have some pep.

8. No coat and ties. You should be able to worship in a comfortable manner; shorts and tee shirts if you want. God doesn't care what you wear only your employer cares. This "wearing your Sunday best" is over rated. The Church needs to recognize that "business casual" is the way of the world now.

9. Hymnals out, overheads in.

10. Coffee must be allowed in the Auditorium.

11. You must be able to have unfettered access to the Senior Pastor at a moments notice. (Pastors have nothing to do during the week anyway. All they really have to do is whip out a sermon, which takes no time at all, right?).

12. And finally the catch all. If you perceive in any way that your needs are not being met, don't worry, there is another church down the street you can try.

The rant is over now. All is calm.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 18, 2004)

I always draw the line with the faithful preaching of the gospel. That's why, I'd have no trouble going to a reformed presbyterian or baptist church if they were inconsistent with the other areas, so long as the Word is faithfully taught. That is what has the biggest impact on our growth in grace within the congregation. Now, there are very few reformed churches in my area (only 2 actually) and if they were not present I may have just ended up in a conservative Lutheran or Baptist church so long as they were preaching the gospel. But I probably would not become a member. 

The key is you will have to supplement at home whatever is lacking from the congregation. So, if you attend such a church and find some people of like minds, you may consider starting a Bible study with them, to supplement your growth. It could possibly even lead to a new church plant (though this shouldn't be the intent) 

My :wr50:

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by puritansailor]


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

I would go to an orthodox Church. Or I would go to a Catholic church, and not take communion at mass. But I would never go to a Pentecostal chuch . . . LOL


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

Wayne,
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your sharing what you've learned over the years.
[kidding]. 
I agree wholeheartedly with your list and have updated my list to include a couple items that I had overlooked. I don't know how I overlooked them, but I guess experience certainly pays off.
[/kidding]

All kidding aside, your list gave many of the common selfish reasons why people leave a church or don't want to join a church. While acknowledging the absurdness of the self-centered reasons listed, one might be tempted to conclude that a person should stay in a church no matter what or, if they're looking for a new church, that any church will do. I think that's not a position that you or most would take.

So, if you were to move to an area of the country that didn't have a church like you're accustomed to, where would you draw the line when selecting a church? If you have children, where would you draw the line when it comes to what they will (or will not) be taught? ...


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 18, 2004)

[quote:57cb680116]
So, if somebody soteriologically was in agreement with the &quot;five points of Calvinism&quot;, would you join the church and just put up with the other stuff? 
[/quote:57cb680116]

Nope. We are in the midst of a transition because of that very idea. The pastor says he believes that, but there is too much junk in the church that overthrows what he says on the sidelines. his preaching is now reflecting that &quot;compromise&quot; as well. 

I have lived half my life on this planet. In that time I have found relatively few places that even come close to a biblical church all around. That does not mean I could not worship in one of them, but, the cannot be compromising on preaching, worship or discipline (and most do).


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## raderag (Feb 18, 2004)

*One thing that bothers me about this question*

Is that it seems to presume the possiblity that God would not provide for a place of worship where He wanted you to be.

I am not criticizing you as I have asked this question many times myself. Possibly, we are trying to draw the line of orthodoxy.

Anyway, a church must accept the basic tenet of christianity as defined in the early councils, believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and finally be willing to apply the Gospel to all aspects of worship.

Otherwise, it really isn't a Church, and God would want me somewhere else.


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## wsw201 (Feb 18, 2004)

Providentially speaking, God has yet to put me in a position like the one you are in, so I'm not quite sure where I would draw the line.

One thing I would probably do is consider going to a Church in another town. We have people in our Church who drive an hour to come to Church and stay very active. No doubt that it is inconvenient but I knew guys in New York who would commute 3 hrs into the City for their job.

Are there any decsent Reformed Churches in any nearby towns? or is that not an option?

Webmaster,

What planet did you live on for the other half of your life?


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

[b:0982d54d18]Wayne wrote:[/b:0982d54d18]
Webmaster, What planet did you live on for the other half of your life?

 That question crossed my mind as well.

[b:0982d54d18]Wayne wrote:[/b:0982d54d18]
One thing I would probably do is consider going to a Church in another town. 

We've been to many churches in our town, in surrounding towns, and beyond. Most seem to be either seeker sensitive, ecumenical, or have women in key leadership rolls. 

[b:0982d54d18]Wayne wrote:[/b:0982d54d18]
Are there any decsent Reformed Churches in any nearby towns? 

The closest we've found is the one we've been attending for the last few months. The church is a community church that was a merger of a baptist and a congregational church. Teachings about baptism, etc., are basically left up to the discretion of the individuals. The church doesn't take a stand one way or the other. Lots of good things about the church that we like, but...

Bob


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

[b:1146d96286]raderag wrote:[/b:1146d96286]
One thing that bothers me about this question is that it seems to presume the possiblity that God would not provide for a place of worship where He wanted you to be. I am not criticizing you...

On the contrary. Thanks so much for your post as it encouages me that God does have a place for us to worship. And He will guide us to that place.

[b:1146d96286]raderag wrote:[/b:1146d96286]
Anyway, a church must accept the basic tenet of christianity as defined in the early councils, believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and finally be willing to apply the Gospel to all aspects of worship. 

Thanks for your advice,
Bob


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

[b:e996baa3ea]Patrick wrote:[/b:e996baa3ea]
The key is you will have to supplement at home whatever is lacking from the congregation. 

I agree. 

[b:e996baa3ea]Patrick wrote:[/b:e996baa3ea]
So, if you attend such a church and find some people of like minds, you may consider starting a Bible study with them, to supplement your growth. It could possibly even lead to a new church plant (though this shouldn't be the intent) 

If I were a member, I think I could do that if what we studied didn't contradict what the church leadership taught. Otherwise, I would probably feel like I was not properly submitting to the authority that God placed over me. My beliefs may be out of wack on this, but even when I was a member of dispensational churches, I wouldn't feel right teaching things contrary to the teachings of that church. (unless I was discussing it with one of the Bible students) with other church members. 

Bob

Bob


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## raderag (Feb 18, 2004)

[quote:eba9940b6d][i:eba9940b6d]Originally posted by raderag[/i:eba9940b6d]
Is that it seems to presume the possiblity that God would not provide for a place of worship where He wanted you to be.

I am not criticizing you as I have asked this question many times myself. Possibly, we are trying to draw the line of orthodoxy.

Anyway, a church must accept the basic tenet of christianity as defined in the early councils, believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and finally be willing to apply the Gospel to all aspects of worship.

Otherwise, it really isn't a Church, and God would want me somewhere else. [/quote:eba9940b6d]

I didn't read the question as asking for advice, rather as a hypothetical. My appoligies for sounding so blunt. Anyway, it took me a year to find a Church where God wanted me. I left the 'Bible Church' I was currently at.

My preferences as far as denom or type are as follows. 

Presbyterian (PCA or OPC)
various &quot;reformed denoms&quot; (not many down here in Texas)
Lutheran (LCMS) - You should really check them out as many are good bible believing, gospel centered churches.
Conservative or reformed Anglican. Even some Episcopol USA are good.
Reformed Baptist
Some other baptist

I would say that monergism is an important aspect for me, but liturgy and worship are also very important. 

BTW, I put baptist last as I would not like a church that doesn't practice infant baptism. I think that is important, as do they.


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## Gregg (Feb 18, 2004)

> [i:92ea7d01cd]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:92ea7d01cd]
> 
> 
> 11. You must be able to have unfettered access to the Senior Pastor at a moments notice. (Pastors have nothing to do during the week anyway. All they really have to do is whip out a sermon, which takes no time at all, right?).
> ...


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## twogunfighter (Feb 18, 2004)

As one who drives to one nearby town to go to a church that is reformed in name while it tromps on the RP and ordains women as deacons for sunday morning and then drives another 30 minutes the other direction in the evening to attend the church that we are working to plant (no tromping or unbiblical ordaining). I have to say that if a church aggrees with the ecumenical creeds then I would be willing to go to it. As one's pool of churches is shrunk we are forced to be less choosy. For me though, the number one issue is worship followed by sound doctrine, followed by the perceived soundness of the member's walks.

my :wr50:

Chuck


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 18, 2004)

Wsw201

The Northeast (Cape Ann) - New England, during the 70's and 80's - they are mostly Roman Catholic and other churches are dead as a doornail; and in South Florida (Boca Raton/ Ft. Lauderdale area) - transient, non-theological, Non-Regulative Principle &quot;I got my Holy Spirit Feeling&quot;, don't bother me with the bible, churches down here.

For whatever reason, God has continually placed us admist a sea of nonsense. Why? Not sure. I am a bit sick of it actually. So is my wife. My Presbyterian friends north of us - about an hour and a half have no place to go either, so that tells you the area down here has sold out. There's about 15 PCA churches around this whole south area (about 150 mile radius) - and still, they keep coming and sell out on worship, preaching and the RP across the board because people continually move in and move out based on demographics and they try to &quot;keep them&quot;. Now, they will tell you differently. But you have sit and spend 6 months at a time figuring this out while they &quot;tell you&quot; they adhere to the RP and sound preaching. But, the proof is in the pudding. As a matter of fact, the pudding itself is not there!!

I don't mean to sound completely negative about church life in general down here, but hey, if the shoe fits...

My parents are in Tennesse (in the middle of the state) in their area - not a lick of a good church. One PCA church. When we visited on vacation there, the Pastor preached on deacons - the main point of his sermon from 1 Tim 3 was that deacons are the ones who make sure the lawn is cut and the air conditioning works well (no joke - that was the substance of the sermon.)

Just a couple of weeks ago we had to walk out of a service we were attending. It was basically a commercial for their Christian school, where they had 3 ladies BEHIND THE PULPIT speaking to us. And this guy says he is reformed???
ETC.....

I am glad your experience on this planet has been better than mine. Mine has been, well, eclectic to say the least. 

So I await, as patiently as possible, entering into the city whose foundations has as its builder and maker &quot;God alone&quot;....

If you ask me, over the last ten years, who is your pastor? I would say Edwards, Burroughs, Love, Turretin, etc. They speak to me from the grave with sweet words of biblical exhortation that I would long to hear in a pulpit. 

Forget the jokes, foget the nonsense - preach the word! be MAN. Stop being afraid of the people. Stop worrying about your job and whetehr the church will throw you out because of sound preaching. Be a man, be a man of God, a preacher of the Word unto death if needs be. Preach the Word. Stop catering to the whims of men's fancies. Stop the nonsense on Sunday mornings hoping to attract people while you repel the Living God from your worship service and call it &quot;church&quot;. Preachers need to wake up and fly straight or get out of the pulpit. Better to have 5 preachers in the whole country than 50,000 dolts who ought to be studying their Bible and sitting in the front pew under a good preacher. Get out the pulpit and into the pew! Stop torturing the people of God. Stop! Stop! Stop! The people of God are so tired of it that they are blinded by ignornace and don't know any better while listening to pep rallys. Please!!


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 18, 2004)

&lt;SIGH&gt; 
How I can relate!:no:


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## blhowes (Feb 18, 2004)

[b:4e6bdf8e5a]Chuck wrote:[/b:4e6bdf8e5a]
As one's pool of churches is shrunk we are forced to be less choosy.

That is unfortunate, but so true. 

[b:4e6bdf8e5a]Chuck wrote:[/b:4e6bdf8e5a]
For me though, the number one issue is worship followed by sound doctrine, followed by the perceived soundness of the member's walks.

I agree with you, though for me I'd probably put sound doctrine first, followed by worship. If a preacher doesn't preach sound doctrine, but gives a watered down message, its hard for me to worship. When somebody proclaims the majesty of God, etc., as proclaimed in the scriptures, worship is the natural result.

[b:4e6bdf8e5a]Matthew wrote:[/b:4e6bdf8e5a]
The Northeast (Cape Ann) - New England, during the 70's and 80's - they are mostly Roman Catholic and other churches are dead as a doornail;

...and I haven't seen that its improved much since then. I don't want to get into the negatives, but its frustrating sometimes. Your situation sounds frustrating as well.

[b:4e6bdf8e5a]Matthew wrote:[/b:4e6bdf8e5a]
Forget the jokes, foget the nonsense - preach the word! be MAN. Stop being afraid of the people. Stop worrying about your job and whetehr the church will throw you out because of sound preaching. Be a man, be a man of God, a preacher of the Word unto death if needs be. Preach the Word. Stop catering to the whims of men's fancies. Stop the nonsense on Sunday mornings hoping to attract people while you repel the Living God from your worship service and call it &quot;church&quot;. Preachers need to wake up and fly straight or get out of the pulpit. Better to have 5 preachers in the whole country than 50,000 dolts who ought to be studying their Bible and sitting in the front pew under a good preacher. Get out the pulpit and into the pew! Stop torturing the people of God. Stop! Stop! Stop! The people of God are so tired of it that they are blinded by ignornace and don't know any better while listening to pep rallys. Please!!

Amen! I agree wholeheartedly. You hit the nail on the head.

[Edited on 2-19-2004 by blhowes]


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 19, 2004)

[quote:5f2397a240] Forget the jokes, foget the nonsense - preach the word! be MAN. Stop being afraid of the people. Stop worrying about your job and whetehr the church will throw you out because of sound preaching. Be a man, be a man of God, a preacher of the Word unto death if needs be. Preach the Word. Stop catering to the whims of men's fancies. Stop the nonsense on Sunday mornings hoping to attract people while you repel the Living God from your worship service and call it &quot;church&quot;. Preachers need to wake up and fly straight or get out of the pulpit. Better to have 5 preachers in the whole country than 50,000 dolts who ought to be studying their Bible and sitting in the front pew under a good preacher. Get out the pulpit and into the pew! Stop torturing the people of God. Stop! Stop! Stop! The people of God are so tired of it that they are blinded by ignornace and don't know any better while listening to pep rallys. Please!! [/quote:5f2397a240]

Hopefully with the advent of these new (yet smaller) conservative seminaries (i.e. GPTS, MARS, etc.) your prayer may be answered in part. It is my prayer too. But we must pray for revival among the people too. It's the people who choose these lousy pastors and continue to employ them. The Spirit must raise all these dry bones yet again...


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