# Earliest date of written history



## Leslie (Sep 19, 2014)

When, in sacred history, did writing come into being? Moses is the first that I can think of for sure. Yet is seems unlikely that Joseph could have managed all the grain storage in Egypt without writing, at least of numbers. Is there secular historical evidence of writing before the date of Moses? How old are the Egyptian heiroglyphics--would they predate Joseph?


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2014)

BBC News | Sci/Tech | 'Earliest writing' found



> Harappa was originally a small settlement in 3500 BC but by 2600 BC it had developed into a major urban centre.
> 
> The earliest known writing was etched onto jars before and after firing. Experts believe they may have indicated the contents of the jar or be signs associated with a deity.



I imagine there was probably writing before the Flood and that mankind soon began writing again shortly after the Flood, with some improvements over the years. Even before Moses, the Sumerians had cuneiform. 


The earliest precursor of writing - Escola Finaly


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2014)

Regarding Egypt:



> The ancient Egyptians believed that writing was invented by the god Thoth and called their hieroglyphic script "mdwt ntr" (god's words). The word hieroglyph comes from the Greek hieros (sacred) plus glypho (inscriptions) and was first used by Clement of Alexandria.
> 
> The earliest known examples of writing in Egypt have been dated to 3,400 BC. The latest dated inscription in hieroglyphs was made on the gate post of a temple at Philae in 396 AD.



Ancient Egyptian scripts (hieroglyphs, hieratic and demotic)

It seems that Joseph did record things somehow. "Joseph stored up huge quantities of grain, like the sand of the sea; it was so much that he stopped keeping records because it was beyond measure” (Gen. 41:49).


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## Leslie (Sep 19, 2014)

Do we have an estimate of the date of the flood? If writing existed before that, then it would have to have been on the ark, right?


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Sep 19, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Do we have an estimate of the date of the flood? If writing existed before that, then it would have to have been on the ark, right?



https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/timeline-for-the-flood/

Probably somewhere around 2500 BC.


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## Leslie (Sep 19, 2014)

So with this writing from so long before, what happened to the writing during the flood? Was it preserved by Noah, or was it out there getting covered with silt, not dug up until millennia later?


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2014)

I would guess that Noah might have known how to write. 

Here is a link to what some believe is the oldest version of the Flood story:

https://www.academia.edu/205950/The_Oldest_Written_Version_of_the_Flood_Story_and_its_Relevance_to_the_Migrations_of_the_Ancient_Bulgarians.Yavor_Y._Shopov_%D0%A2._Yalamov



> We studied the earliest version of the Deluge story, which were found on two clay tabletsexcavated from the Older Nippur library in “Tablet Hill”, Nippur by H. Hilprecht. These two tabletswith cuneiform inscriptions were written by the tsar (emperor) of Kutians Erridu- pizir after heconquered the whole Sumer and Akkad in 2478 B.C. (accordingly the Nippur chronology). They statethat the house-boat of the Ut- napishtim (the Babylonian Noah) landed on the mount Nisir in the landof Kuti (Guti).


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2014)

I believe the Pre-Flood world was largely obliterated. I believe the dates of some ancient chronologies are not accurate (Manetho's chronology of Egypt, for instance, stretches out Egyptian chronology too long and doesn't take into account kings that were co-rulers and reigning at the same time). About 2200-2500 BC is when it seems the first ancient civilizations sprang up in the Fertile Crescent. I think a cold "ice age" period followed for about 1,000 years after the Flood and produced the vitamin-deficient neanderthals in Europe around this time period who struggled to survive in the very cold climate of that time (this is why these civilizations that sprang up were all in the Fertile Crescent and why Job, the most ancient bible writer, speaks of snow. Job 38:29–30, “From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth? The waters harden like stone, and the surface of the deep is frozen.”). Civilization and writing thus developed in the middle east and then, as northern climes warmed, immigration began and Europe and other regions began to be populated.


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2014)

The Tower of Babel account affirmed by linguistics - creation.com


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## Leslie (Sep 20, 2014)

Thanks for the input. I'll pursue the links tomorrow, a good way to spend a Sunday afternoon.


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## psycheives (Sep 20, 2014)

Leslie said:


> When, in sacred history, did writing come into being? Moses is the first that I can think of for sure. Yet is seems unlikely that Joseph could have managed all the grain storage in Egypt without writing, at least of numbers. Is there secular historical evidence of writing before the date of Moses? How old are the Egyptian heiroglyphics--would they predate Joseph?



According to Old Testament Textual Criticism by Ellis R. Brotzman: the oldest writing found is in Sumer around 3100BC among the Sumarians. It was a pictographic writings system (using drawn pictures) and then it evolved into signs that represented syllables. Brotzman traces the history of writing from: 
Sumarian (this first known writing system ~3100BC) to 
Akkadian (~2500) and 
Cuneiform. 
These do languages did not have alphabets yet. 

He writes the oldest alphabet was among the Phonecians (around ~1550-1450BC). Tablets found in Ugaritic are the oldest to use a semitic language with an alphabet. (14th century). Originally OT written in a Paleo-Hebrew script. Later it became preserved in a square Aramaic script (300BC) (Pg64)


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## Wayne (Sep 20, 2014)

The "toledoth theory" holds that Moses worked from tablets written by each of the respective authors ("these are the generations of..."), which would push the art of writing back to either Adam himself or one of his descendants, but no later than Noah.

One treatment of this (not necessarily the best, but at least some exposure to the theory) is found at http://creation.com/who-wrote-genesis-are-the-toledoth-colophons


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## bookslover (Sep 20, 2014)

The older liberals used to claim that Moses couldn't have written the Pentateuch because writing didn't exist yet. I do so love it when liberals turn out to be wrong - which is most of the time.


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## whirlingmerc (Sep 21, 2014)

look for clay cunniform tablets from ur of Chaldees for very early writings 2600bc pre Abraham
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/05/06_tablet.shtml

Related to Exodus, Numbers, in one of the attacks a young kid was captured who wrote down the name of like 70 rulers of his city clearly he could write

Moses was schooled in the MIT of the day, Egypt's Royalty.... he could read

...and by the way...

If Mary spent a couple months at Aunt Elizabeth's the priest's house.... no way Liz would send the mother of the Messiah home without making sure Mary could teach Jesus to read either...


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## Pilgrim (Sep 21, 2014)

bookslover said:


> The older liberals used to claim that Moses couldn't have written the Pentateuch because writing didn't exist yet. I do so love it when liberals turn out to be wrong - which is most of the time.



I was just thinking of that.


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