# Gary North & the RPW



## zsmcd (Aug 23, 2016)

North has some interesting thoughts on the RPW. Would love to see someone interact with it.

http://www.garynorth.com/public/15567.cfm


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## Ed Walsh (Aug 23, 2016)

zsmcd said:


> Would love to see someone interact with it.



In short, he's no fan stating that, "The so-called New Testament _*regulative principle*_ is a Presbyterian folk myth."

Here's what James B. Jordan said years ago (1986) in, The Sociology of the Church.
I think this sounds like North's view:

The Reformers wanted three things. First, they wanted a return
to Biblical regulation of worship. Almost immediately, however,
this concern was sidetracked by a minimalist approach. The
rule, "we should do in worship only what is actually commanded
in Scripture," was taken in an increasingly restricted sense. The
Reformers had realized that God's "commands" are found in
Scripture in "precept, principle, and example." Their heirs tended
to exchange this wholistic openness to the Word ofGod for a quest
for "explicit commands." Instead of reading the Bible to see the
patterns presented there for our imitation, there was an attempt
to find the bare minimum of what is actually "commanded" in the
New Testament. The book of Revelation, which shows how worship
is conducted in heaven ("Thy will be done on earth as it is in
heaven"), was ignored. Anabaptist minimalism soon overwhelmed
the Reformed churches.


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## MW (Aug 23, 2016)

zsmcd said:


> North has some interesting thoughts on the RPW. Would love to see someone interact with it.
> 
> http://www.garynorth.com/public/15567.cfm



His words: "That which is central to formal corporate worship -- liturgy - has almost no New Testament guidelines."

He tells you in his own words that he cannot find enough in the New Testament to regulate it. Then he concludes you must reject the regulative principle in order to accommodate his invention.

Salesmen don't tell you when they are selling you a counterfeit; this one has unwittingly told you that he is selling you something that has no mark of biblical authenticity.


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## TylerRay (Aug 23, 2016)

Ed Walsh said:


> Here's what James B. Jordan said years ago (1986) in, The Sociology of the Church.



It should be remembered that North and Jordan, along with David Chilton and Ray Sutton, were in the same congregation in the 80s (Westminster Presbyterian in Tyler, TX), and that they began a new movement in those days within the Reconstructionist circles (sometimes called Tylerites). The unique doctrines and practices that they developed eventually grew into what is now the Federal Vision movement.


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## Edward (Aug 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> David Chilton and Ray Sutton


 Sutton is a RE bishop in Dallas. Chilton died young.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 23, 2016)

And they did awful things. Hopefully the living have repented of them. Chilton did.


Edward said:


> Sutton is a RE bishop in Dallas. Chilton died young.


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## yeutter (Aug 23, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Ed Walsh said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what James B. Jordan said years ago (1986) in, The Sociology of the Church.
> ...



I was not aware of this aspect of the Rt. Rev. Ray Sutton's background. Prof. Meredith Kline is widely appreciated among conservative Anglicans in North America. Some attribute this to Bishop Sutton


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## Andrew P.C. (Aug 24, 2016)

Just a thought: He states that the New Testament is silent on the issue. However, his argumentation is quite dispensational. He clearly rejects prescriptions in the OT for the supposed silence in the NT. There are quite a few places that speak on the regulative principle in the NT, but just his argumentation alone seems to reject the very principle that he uses for his reconstructionism. 

Also, he speaks of liturgy. He brings up an interesting point: "Should we get rid of musical notation in our hymnals? Should we get rid of hymnals altogether? What about standing up and sitting down? What about responsive readings? What about kneeling? What about kneeling rails? (Are they a sell-out to "weak-kneed Christians"?) What about printed prayers? What about the recitation of a creed?" Well, for many of these I'd say yes. The liturgy in worship should be simple (think Free Church). 

By the way, his historical outline and understanding is atrocious. He makes a side note as well: 


> (Note: it is the writings of these early Puritans that have been reprinted by the pietistic neo-Puritan movement, e.g., Banner of Truth. Cromwell is never mentioned.)


Whenever a theonomist (in the North, McDurmon, etc. camp) calls something pietistic or someone a pietist, they are making fun of you.


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## TylerRay (Aug 24, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Chilton did.



Do you have a resource on this? It would be a big encouragement to me to have that substantiated (I was involved in the FV/CREC early on in my pilgrimage through the Reformed world).


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## TylerRay (Aug 24, 2016)

yeutter said:


> I was not aware of this aspect of the Rt. Rev. Ray Sutton's background. Prof. Meredith Kline is widely appreciated among conservative Anglicans in North America. Some attribute this to Bishop Sutton



Sutton is known for having taken Kline's "five-point covenant model" and superimposed it on many passages throughout the Scriptures. It was part of the development of what has been called _interpretive maximalism_, which is chiefly associated with James Jordan.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 24, 2016)

He repented of his hand in what passed for a church court for the ARC. http://www.thebluebanner.com/pdf/bluebanner4-7-8.pdf


TylerRay said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > Chilton did.
> ...


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## yeutter (Aug 25, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> He repented of his hand in what passed for a church court for the ARC. http://www.thebluebanner.com/pdf/bluebanner4-7-8.pdf


Thank you for sharing this link.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 25, 2016)

No problem. N.B. I don't have any respect for Mr. Sutton. One of the families that was severely dealt with by this star chamber in Tyler came to him for help. No help came. Draw from that what you will; I have.


yeutter said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > He repented of his hand in what passed for a church court for the ARC. http://www.thebluebanner.com/pdf/bluebanner4-7-8.pdf
> ...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2016)

That paedocommunion article was truly bizarre.


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## Miss Marple (Aug 26, 2016)

Mr. North was very scare mongering about Y2K which really turned me off. I have not heeded him much since. No insult meant towards him, but he was a man of great influence and I think his dire predictions harmed many people and as far as I know he never repented of it.


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 26, 2016)

Goes back further. Those influenced by similar survivalist mentality in the late seventies early eighties harmed many by the star chamber they ran down in Tyler. Others took advantage of widow's estates and lost it all in harebrained schemes. Far more love of the world and the things of it, than of the next and the one thing needful.


Miss Marple said:


> Mr. North was very scare mongering about Y2K which really turned me off. I have not heeded him much since. No insult meant towards him, but he was a man of great influence and I think his dire predictions harmed many people and as far as I know he never repented of it.


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## Miss Marple (Aug 26, 2016)

I saw great damage done both in my local church and in my family. I fought against it at the time but was treated as though I was a simpleton who did not appreciate the world ending menace of Y2k


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