# I hate olives, but the olive tree intriques me.



## blhowes (Jul 22, 2004)

I'm studying Romans 11, and I have a couple of questions. 

In Romans 11:11, why did Paul ask if 'Have [i:600554a90f]they stumbled that they should fall?[/i:600554a90f]' instead of just [i:600554a90f]'Have they fallen'?[/i:600554a90f]

Initially, there was an Olive Tree with branches. Because of unbelief, some of the branches were broken off. Then, because of belief, the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in. Is there any reason to think that, whatever the branches that were broken off had before they were broken off, that it would be different from what the wild branches had after they were grafted in? 

The bad branches started out as part of the Olive tree and the wild branches ended up as part of the Olive tree. What does the Olive tree represent? I used to think it meant a saving relationship with Christ, but I wonder because the branches that were broken off were initially part of the olive tree, though unsaved.


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## blhowes (Jul 22, 2004)

Other questions:

1. What is necessary for a person to be grafted into the olive tree?
2. Can a person be grafted into the olive tree without faith?
3. Is this faith saving faith?


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## andreas (Sep 12, 2004)

***What does the Olive tree represent?***

The olive tree represents the external, visible, corporate church as compared to the eternal, invisible church.The external church is made up of possessors and professors.
"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;"1 Corr,3:12.
The professors are the branches that can be cut off.The possessors ,who are also members of the eternal church are the branches that can never be cut off.They never loose thier salvation.They are sealed with the Spirit of life till the day of redemption.The wood, hay and stubble are the expendable branches ,for the are not truly saved,yet they are members of the church.
andreas. 
P.S. Olives are good for you.They lower your cholesterol.


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## blhowes (Sep 12, 2004)

[quote:8de1feb274="andreas"]***What does the Olive tree represent?***
The olive tree represents the external, visible, corporate church as compared to the eternal, invisible church.The external church is made up of possessors and professors...The professors are the branches that can be cut off.The possessors ,who are also members of the eternal church are the branches that can never be cut off.They never loose thier salvation.They are sealed with the Spirit of life till the day of redemption.[/quote:8de1feb274]
Andreas. Thanks for your response.

Its a neat and challenging passage to study, and its still a bit confusing for me. I guess I'm thinking that at one time the branches that were cut off initially possessed something gained by those that were grafted in. The one group lost what they had because of unbelief and the other gained it because they believed. Whatever was lost or gained must be something different from salvation, since those cut off couldn't have lost their salvation.

Your interpretation makes sense, though I still have questions. I wonder about those wild olive branches that were grafted in. They were grafted in because they believed and had faith. In verse 20, those grafted in seem to be on solid ground. They're standing because of their faith. I don't see anything to indicate that they don't have the correct faith. Then, in verse 21, these same people who have the faith that allows them to stand, are warned that they can fall. We assume that, if somebody fell into this category and was cut off, that they didn't possess saving faith and didn't believe what was expected. I wonder if that's a valid assumption? Can a person who doesn't have saving faith actually be said to have been grafted into the olive tree?

[quote:8de1feb274="Andreas"]P.S. Olives are good for you.They lower your cholesterol.[/quote:8de1feb274]
I'm not surprised. Even as a kid I knew that there was an inverse relationship between taste and nutrition.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 12, 2004)

My opinion, the olive tree represents the covenant of grace. The branches that were not spared were ethnic Israel, though not the elect (covenant of redemption). Those grafted in were them not of ethnic Israel or new convets not from the tribe or covenant of grace.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 12, 2004)

The olive tree is the true Church. (WCF 25.5; WLC 62; WLC 191).

See also Calvin on Rom. 11:18

[quote:53a3d41fca="Calvin"]18. But if thou gloriest, thou bearest not the root, etc. The Gentiles could not contend with the Jews respecting the excellency of their race without contending with Abraham himself; which would have been extremely unbecoming, since he was like a root by which they were borne and nourished. As unreasonable as it would be for the branches to boast against the root, so unreasonable would it have been for the Gentiles to glory against the Jews, that is, with respect to the excellency of their race; for Paul would have them ever to consider whence was the origin of their salvation. And we know that after [b:53a3d41fca]Christ by his coming has pulled down the partition-wall[/b:53a3d41fca], the whole world partook of the favor which God had previously conferred on the [b:53a3d41fca]chosen people[/b:53a3d41fca]. It hence follows, that the calling of the Gentiles was like an ingrafting, and that they did not otherwise grow up as God's people than as they were grafted in the stock of Abraham. (emphasis added)[/quote:53a3d41fca]


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 12, 2004)

[quote:714c28883b="fredtgreco"]The olive tree is the true Church. (WCF 25.5; WLC 62; WLC 191).

See also Calvin on Rom. 11:18

[quote:714c28883b="Calvin"]18. But if thou gloriest, thou bearest not the root, etc. The Gentiles could not contend with the Jews respecting the excellency of their race without contending with Abraham himself; which would have been extremely unbecoming, since he was like a root by which they were borne and nourished. As unreasonable as it would be for the branches to boast against the root, so unreasonable would it have been for the Gentiles to glory against the Jews, that is, with respect to the excellency of their race; for Paul would have them ever to consider whence was the origin of their salvation. And we know that after [b:714c28883b]Christ by his coming has pulled down the partition-wall[/b:714c28883b], the whole world partook of the favor which God had previously conferred on the [b:714c28883b]chosen people[/b:714c28883b]. It hence follows, that the calling of the Gentiles was like an ingrafting, and that they did not otherwise grow up as God's people than as they were grafted in the stock of Abraham. (emphasis added)[/quote:714c28883b][/quote:714c28883b]

Fred,
[i:714c28883b]The root[/i:714c28883b] may be the true church (CoR); Calvin intimates or contrasts "Abraham" as a type of root which is a type of Christ, but the branches are the CoG. 

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off,

Unless of course you have changed your previous position??? By what you are stating, unbelievers are in the [i:714c28883b]true church[/i:714c28883b]. Rom 11:20 says that they were [i:714c28883b]broken off[/i:714c28883b]; what were they broken off of? That which you claim is the true church.

In regards to your citing of the WCF 25.5, WLC, I don't see where this idea of the tree or vine is defined in the way you claim........


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## fredtgreco (Sep 12, 2004)

[quote:63d078a979="Scott Bushey"][quote:63d078a979="fredtgreco"]The olive tree is the true Church. (WCF 25.5; WLC 62; WLC 191).

See also Calvin on Rom. 11:18

[quote:63d078a979="Calvin"]18. But if thou gloriest, thou bearest not the root, etc. The Gentiles could not contend with the Jews respecting the excellency of their race without contending with Abraham himself; which would have been extremely unbecoming, since he was like a root by which they were borne and nourished. As unreasonable as it would be for the branches to boast against the root, so unreasonable would it have been for the Gentiles to glory against the Jews, that is, with respect to the excellency of their race; for Paul would have them ever to consider whence was the origin of their salvation. And we know that after [b:63d078a979]Christ by his coming has pulled down the partition-wall[/b:63d078a979], the whole world partook of the favor which God had previously conferred on the [b:63d078a979]chosen people[/b:63d078a979]. It hence follows, that the calling of the Gentiles was like an ingrafting, and that they did not otherwise grow up as God's people than as they were grafted in the stock of Abraham. (emphasis added)[/quote:63d078a979][/quote:63d078a979]

Fred,
[i:63d078a979]The root[/i:63d078a979] may be the true church (CoR); Calvin intimates or contrasts "Abraham" as a type of root which is a type of Christ, but the branches are the CoG. 

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off,

Unless of course you have changed your previous position??? By what you are stating, unbelievers are in the [i:63d078a979]true church[/i:63d078a979]. Rom 11:20 says that they were [i:63d078a979]broken off[/i:63d078a979]; what were they broken off of? That which you claim is the true church.

In regards to the WCF 25.5, I don't see where this idea is clearly defined........[/quote:63d078a979]

Scott,

Good point. I don't want to be saying that unbelievers are a part of the true church. I guess I have to stick with the Church. I don't see how the tree could be the covenant of grace, since the tree is composed of persons. It could be composed of persons in the covenant of grace, in which case it would be the church, but it could not be the covenant itself.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 12, 2004)

Let me clearify:
The olive tree's root system is Christ. The true believers here are those whom are elect and in the CoR. The branches are the CoG and those cut off are the unbelievers in it athe judgment. The grafted in, are those whom were not ethnic Israel and converted.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 12, 2004)

[quote:31fe7a871b="Scott Bushey"]Let me clearify:
The olive tree's root system is Christ. The true believers here are those whom are elect and in the CoR. The branches are the CoG and those cut off are the unbelievers in it athe judgment. The grafted in, are those whom were not ethnic Israel and converted.[/quote:31fe7a871b]

OK. I understand now. Thanks. This is the same issue we have been discussing in the Matthew 13 passage. More when I have more time.


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## andreas (Sep 14, 2004)

***Can a person who doesn't have saving faith actually be said to have been grafted into the olive tree? ***


You have to remember that the olive tree is the external church,made up of believers and non believers.You know that in every church there are saved and not saved people.All can be thought of ,as being grafted in,branches of the same tree,the external church.The issue here is, that those who are saved,are those branches that can never be cut off,while those who are not saved are the branches that can be cut off.Those branches that can be cut off are never members of the eternal,invisible church of Christ.
andreas.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 14, 2004)

[quote:487fe56133="andreas"]***Can a person who doesn't have saving faith actually be said to have been grafted into the olive tree? ***


You have to remember that the olive tree is the external church,made up of believers and non believers.You know that in every church there are saved and not saved people.All can be thought of ,as being grafted in,branches of the same tree,the external church.The issue here is, that those who are saved,are those branches that can never be cut off,while those who are not saved are the branches that can be cut off.Those branches that can be cut off are never members of the eternal,invisible church of Christ.
andreas. [/quote:487fe56133]

Andreas,
Correct, not grafted in. Those grafted in were them not of ethnic Israel or new convets not from the tribe or covenant of grace.


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