# Thoughts on Windows 10 - Windows Users Only, Please



## Southern Presbyterian

Fellow Windows Users of the PB,

What are you thoughts on the Windows 10 upgrade? I'm running Windows 7 Home Premium on a 2010 Gateway gaming machine handed down to me by my son, and I've downloaded the Get Windows 10 app which says I'm good to go. Any thoughts as to why it would be good or bad to upgrade?

Thanks,

P.S. I don't care to hear about the superiority of other operating systems or computer brands. I'm as staunch in my Windows use as I am in my Presbyterianism.


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## Edward

They aren't clear what the costs will be the second year. "First year free" is the only thing holding me back. I can use Win7 for free (and I was happy enough with XP) as long as my machine lasts. Vista was junk, and Win 8 was like playing 'hide and seek'. It worked fine if you could figure out where things were hidden. 

I expect 10 to be functional (at least after the first couple of service packs) but I'll stick with 7 if they don't get honest with their subscription costs.


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## VictorBravo

Edward said:


> They aren't clear what the costs will be the second year. "First year free" is the only thing holding me back. I can use Win7 for free (and I was happy enough with XP) as long as my machine lasts. Vista was junk, and Win 8 was like playing 'hide and seek'. It worked fine if you could figure out where things were hidden.
> 
> I expect 10 to be functional (at least after the first couple of service packs) but I'll stick with 7 if they don't get honest with their subscription costs.



Interesting point, Edward. I got the notification too, but I had not considered there may be a subscription cost down the road.

If I were to try it, I suppose I'd want to make sure to have a system image of the current install that I could go back to.

I'm happy enough with Win 7 as well. On a Solid State Drive machine, it's as fast as anything I could ever want, easy to use, and easy to index.


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## Southern Presbyterian

Edward said:


> They aren't clear what the costs will be the second year. "First year free" is the only thing holding me back. I can use Win7 for free (and I was happy enough with XP) as long as my machine lasts. Vista was junk, and Win 8 was like playing 'hide and seek'. It worked fine if you could figure out where things were hidden.



According to the Get Windows 10 app and the Microsoft update website, "After you install Windows 10, it's all yours!"


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## fredtgreco

I don't think it is free for one year. I think you have one year to get the free upgrade:

[h=3]Is the upgrade really free?

[/h][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Yes, it’s free. This is a full version of Windows, not a trial or introductory version. It is available for a limited time: you have one year from the time Windows 10 is available to take advantage of this offer.


[/FONT]
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-faq?ocid=win10_auxapp_LearnMore_win10faq


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## Edward

Looks like they've changed the language on this issue. The only remaining ambiguity is this:

"Additional requirements may apply over time for updates."
http://www.microsoft.com/en-US/wind...nch_SEM_GOO_MSBranded_DESIRE_en-US_windows 10

ZDNet suggests that I was not alone in this concern:
"Microsoft contributed to the confusion with some clumsy wording"
http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-youve-got-questions-ive-got-answers/

You can see a screen capture of the original language here at Forbes if you want to compare what they used to say to what they are saying now. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/06/17/windows-10-free-for-1-year-what-happens-next/

I'll leave open the question as to whether Microsoft changed directions, generating mixed messages, whether they backed off when they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, or whether they lack a legal staff capable of drafting what they mean. But what they said at first and what they are saying now aren't exactly the same.


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## jwithnell

I'm hearing that Microsoft wants out of supplying security patches and upgrades for 7. I was quite concerned about the subscription model for Adobe creative suite, but so far I've had no surprises.


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## Ed Walsh

Is the interface more like Windows 8, or 7. Does anyone know?
I deleted Windows 8. Need I say more???

Ed


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## NaphtaliPress

So MS wants to follow the Adobe model?


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## Edward

NaphtaliPress said:


> So MS wants to follow the Adobe model?



That is my understanding of where they want to go - and to move storage from your computer to their servers - something that Office 13 seems to want to do.


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## SeanAnderson

Ed Walsh said:


> Is the interface more like Windows 8, or 7. Does anyone know?
> I deleted Windows 8. Need I say more???
> 
> Ed



Like 7, Windows 10 is much more Desktop-friendly.

The Start screen has reverted to a Start menu except on tablets.

The inflexible Modern apps are now like ordinary programs (renamed 'universal apps') which open in windows and can be resized, etc. There is no clashing Desktop/Metro UI, but it is overall much more seamless.

A highlight is probably the brand new browser Edge, replacing Internet Explorer, which will probably be a rival to Chrome. One of its useful features is the ability to annotate web pages.


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## Edward

I've been using Firefox for years because of the script blocker. I hadn't realized until I started reading discussions of the new MS browser that they had built in a script blocker of sorts, off by default, in the last few releases of IE. 


Back to the original post and other indicating a willingness to go to Win10. You do realize they are taking away "Hearts" in the 10 release?


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## Semper Fidelis

jwithnell said:


> I'm hearing that Microsoft wants out of supplying security patches and upgrades for 7. I was quite concerned about the subscription model for Adobe creative suite, but so far I've had no surprises.


Do you mean they way they "wanted out" of supporting Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 98, Windows 95, Windows 3.x, Windows 2.x, Windows 1, DOS 5,4,3,2,1?

It's pretty standard practice that patching only goes back so far for any software.


Ed Walsh said:


> Is the interface more like Windows 8, or 7. Does anyone know?
> I deleted Windows 8. Need I say more???
> 
> Ed



It's not like the Windows 8 Metro interface. I don't know how to describe it but I like the interface. It's been free to try for some time.



Edward said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> 
> So MS wants to follow the Adobe model?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is my understanding of where they want to go - and to move storage from your computer to their servers - something that Office 13 seems to want to do.
Click to expand...


Hard to say if it's really the "Adobe" model. Microsoft has been offering Office 365 for some time now as a subscription based model. What I've heard is that Microsoft is going to eventually move to a subscription based model for the OS. It's going to drop the Windows 10 at some point and just be Windows of some sort.

I've got to say that I've been a big fan of Office 365. At only $70/year (Military Appreciation Edition), I can install Office products on 5 computers and all 5 accounts get 1 TB of Cloud storage on OneDrive. Compare that to an upgrade to the latest Office Suite every 3 years and it comes out cheaper for me. I imagine the Windows OS will be cheaper.

One might argue that it's just better to "stay put" but, as noted, you'll eventually be on an OS that is not patched.


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## Semper Fidelis

One other thing is that I think there may be a reason for Microsoft to make its OS very cheap and that is to attract people to their OS as their trying to attract apps to their platform. Apple makes a ton of money on its IOS devices by getting 30% of every app sold in its store. I think Microsoft may be looking toward a future where revenue is less from the OS and more from the Apps it sells to run on the OS.


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## Manuel

I hope it's as fast as Windows 8, or maybe faster. Windows 7 is too slow and buggy.


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## VictorBravo

Manuel said:


> I hope it's as fast as Windows 8, or maybe faster. Windows 7 is too slow and buggy.



Interesting. I've found Win 7 to be real fast and Windows 8 to be OK fast. 

But the Windows 7 is on a SSD machine, and everything seems fast.


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## Edward

Manuel said:


> Windows 7 is too slow and buggy.



I haven't found W7 to be slow and buggy, even on a dual core processor. Sure you aren't running Vista?


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## Ed Walsh

Edward said:


> I haven't found W7 to be slow and buggy, even on a dual core processor. Sure you aren't running Vista?



I agree. I have about 7 computers running Windows 7 and I can't remember one crashing. I thought Windows 8 was just plain weird. Unlike theology, I guess - "to-each-his-own" is applicable when it comes to operating system


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## littlepeople

I've been using win 10 since the preview was made available last year. It's fantastic


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## Shimei

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Fellow Windows Users of the PB,
> 
> What are you thoughts on the Windows 10 upgrade? I'm running Windows 7 Home Premium on a 2010 Gateway gaming machine handed down to me by my son, and I've downloaded the Get Windows 10 app which says I'm good to go. Any thoughts as to why it would be good or bad to upgrade?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P.S. I don't care to hear about the superiority of other operating systems or computer brands. I'm as staunch in my Windows use as I am in my Presbyterianism.



I actually prefer Windows 7 to 8. I have an all in one computer where the internals are built into a touch screen monitor, forcing me to use 8 as packaged. I do not like touchscreens and regret purchasing it. Touchscreens are slower and take more effort than a flick of a wrist. 

Windows 10 can't be worse than Windows 8 - I'm hoping. The most annoying problem with Windows 8 is the inability to keep the computer awake without software while streaming media. I am forced to use Caffine, a program that mimics keyboard clicks every minute for a predetermined time to keep the computer from falling asleep while FTP or media streaming in non IE browsers. 

Lots of things I hope Windows 10 addresses. Otherwise I'll be looking toward another home solution. 

God bless,
William


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## Manuel

Edward said:


> I haven't found W7 to be slow and buggy, even on a dual core processor. Sure you aren't running Vista?


I am completely sure I am not running Vista; well, as a matter of fact I don't think that Vista is much slower than Windows 7, they are basically the same operating system. Microsoft simply took Vista SP2 and fixed a couple of bugs here and there and made the graphical interface boot faster (before the computer is ready) to give the illusion of a faster boot time and gave it a new look and named it Windows 7 but it is basically the same.

I used to believe that Windows 7 was faster than 8 until one day that I was putting a computer together (I build and fix computers in my spare time) and I installed Windows 8 on it, I was testing it and installing drivers and doing this and that until I noticed that I did not have a Windows 8 License; so, I decided to format the drive and install W7 on it. It was then that I realized how much slower and buggier it was. I could not believe it, I was so convinced that Windows 7 was better. That experience is confirmed time after time when I put a computer together or resurrect an old one, windows 8 is always faster.

My wife has 4 computers; I interact with two of them all the time because she has them in the house and every time she has a problem she calls me; one is running Windows 7 and the other one runs Windows 8; the funny thing is that the Windows 7 computer is newer, has more RAM (4GB vs 2GB), has better RAM (DDR3 vs DDR2) but it's slower and buggier than the Windows 8 computer. The Windows 7 computer is a laptop and laptops are slower than desktops but still... the lappy hs a lot more power, it should run a little better. Test it by yourself and you will see.


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## kodos

I use Windows 8.1 at home, and Windows 7 at work. 8 is much faster, but does have that weird schizophrenic UI to contend with. I really like what I'm seeing with 10.


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## JoannaV

I think I will re-investigate Windows 10 next summer, whilst it is still free. I prefer to wait a little bit before upgrading so there will be plenty of online information as to how to get rid of any annoying features.


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## johnny

All the techy reviews are saying moving to Win 10 is a "No Brainer".

I have a laptop running 8.1 with a touch screen.
I think the touchscreen concept works great on laptops.
I use Logos and can just reach out and touch the hyperlinks instead of mousing over.
Makes a huge difference, also really looking forward to 10 as 8.1 seems counter intuitive.


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## Manuel

kodos said:


> I use Windows 8.1 at home, and Windows 7 at work. 8 is much faster, but does have that weird schizophrenic UI to contend with. I really like what I'm seeing with 10.


The Metro interface is optional, you don't have to see/use it ever, there are many alternatives out there to change Windows 8's interface to resemble and behave like Windows 7. one of the most popular ones (and free) is Classic Shell. Every time I install Windows 8 on a computer the first thing I do after installation is install Classic Shell.

Go to Classic Shell's website


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## Shimei

Just upgraded last night. Was a nightmare, the auto upgrade would not work on my main computer. So I downloaded a package from Microsoft that creates a usb upgrade or iso for a dvd. That package would not also work on the problem computer. 

I ended up using my laptop to create a usb stick, then went back to the problem child and upgraded without a problem. 

Just finished setting up email etc.... I love this upgrade process once it was underway. None of my files were lost, all my pictures and albums are intact. 

The new desktop is wonderful. Thank goodness they got rid of that right side bar in Windows 8 that would pop out when least expected. 

God bless,
William


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## C. Matthew McMahon

Semper Fidelis said:


> One might argue that it's just better to "stay put" but, as noted, you'll eventually be on an OS that is not patched.



What happens if we stay put on something that is "not patchable" anymore? 
Really, the only thing that changes for me is an internet connection depending on where I am. 
But' I'd be pretty happy with the tools I own rather than having to pay yearly for everything I have on the computer.


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## kodos

I upgraded last night as well. Didn't have many issues on my Windows 7 machine, will be trying my Windows 8.1 machine (Surface Pro 3) tonight. Was pretty smooth, except I had to download nVidia drivers separately from my vendor (Lenovo) for my laptop. After that, everything was very smooth. It is a great upgrade to Windows 7.

Love the virtual desktops, new task switcher, new built-in apps, Cortana, the new look (the UI fades to the background, and is very transparent to what you are working on, without chrome and bits that scream for attention - something I really didn't care for in Windows 7 - but especially Vista, which was blinding). 

The multimonitor multiple DPI scaling/support is better than it was in 7, but still not what it should be in my opinion.

Edge is pretty good, but I'm back to using Chrome for now because some sites render a little off with Edge.

Battery life is about the same, which was a major concern of mine.

So far, I'm pretty happy. We'll see how it goes over the next few weeks.


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## KMK

Southern Presbyterian said:


> P.S. I don't care to hear about the superiority of other operating systems or computer brands.



I'm sure you are.


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## bookslover

According to an article in the _Orange County Register_, Microsoft is hoping that Windows 10 will be installed about 1 billion times over the next 3 years. Eventually, you'll _have_ to have it because preceding Windows won't be supported anymore.

I'll have to have my daughter come over and do it for me for my laptop because I just _know_ I'll get to a step somewhere in the process that I won't know how to do or won't know what they're talking about, seeing that programmers tend to write programs to please themselves (remember the VCR?).


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## Semper Fidelis

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One might argue that it's just better to "stay put" but, as noted, you'll eventually be on an OS that is not patched.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens if we stay put on something that is "not patchable" anymore?
Click to expand...


If you stop patching the security vulnerabilities discovered then that can have severe consequences.


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## Edward

Semper Fidelis said:


> If you stop patching the security vulnerabilities discovered then that can have severe consequences.



But as the user base rapidly shrinks, the bad guys aren't going to waste their time on 7 looking for new exploits when the easy ones have been found, when there is a whole new universe out there with all new problems just waiting to be exploited.


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## Semper Fidelis

Edward said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you stop patching the security vulnerabilities discovered then that can have severe consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But as the user base rapidly shrinks, the bad guys aren't going to waste their time on 7 looking for new exploits when the easy ones have been found, when there is a whole new universe out there with all new problems just waiting to be exploited.
Click to expand...


If you say so.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Edward said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you stop patching the security vulnerabilities discovered then that can have severe consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But as the user base rapidly shrinks, the bad guys aren't going to waste their time on 7 looking for new exploits when the easy ones have been found, when there is a whole new universe out there with all new problems just waiting to be exploited.
Click to expand...


Hackers prey on out-dated software. They are preying on people still using Windows XP or Vista right now. If the hackers could have any single thing in the entire world, it'd be that people stick with what makes them comfortable as oppose to upgrade to software that is regularly receiving security patches. It's thinking like this that has thousands of people with zombied Windows XP computers providing backdoors into other systems to hackers.

The second 7 reaches EOL, you can GUARANTEE that they will be spending a CONSIDERABLE amount of time looking for exploits because they know that Microsoft won't do anything to fix them anymore. The "bad guys" will be banking on thinking like this - you're not the only one - that gives them free reign without worrying about a zero-day patch to fix their exploit.

Upgrade. Windows 8 was great. Windows 10 is even better. Learn new things. Stay secure.


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## VictorBravo

I was just about ready to jump on the bandwagon. The notification icon is there on my taskbar. But, as is my habit, I read the terms of service and privacy disclosures before downloading a program. I don't think I can use it.

Buried in 33 pages (pdf version) of text downloaded from this site: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx
I find this:



> *Reasons We Share Personal Data*
> 
> Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or *files in private folders*), *when we have a good faith belief* that doing so is necessary to:
> 
> 1. comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies;
> 2. protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone;
> 3. operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or
> 4. protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement.
> 
> Please note that some of our services include links to services of third parties whose privacy practices differ from Microsoft's. If you provide personal data to any of those services, your data is governed by their privacy statements.



(Emphasis added).

When Dropbox came out with similar language in 2010 or so, I "dropped" the account like a hot potato. Now MS is claiming access to my private files, not just emails, on a "good faith" standard. If I consent to this, I may have just waived confidentiality for the 600+ clients whose files reside on my computer.

I frankly don't see how any lawyer could sign on to these terms in good conscience. I didn't have those terms for Windows 7.

Now I'm trying to figure out if these terms of service are retroactive. If so, I'm going to have to increase my encryption practices.


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## a mere housewife

I was looking at a battery saver program for my phone that wanted permission to read all my emails. I've no idea why almost all apps ask for this comprehensive permission, but I try to use as few as possible, since almost all of them do (even the weather apps!). I expect nothing on my devices is truly private, but I'd like to maintain the illusion of being alone in a room when it's just us -- me and the machinery. I refused the upgrade because I watched a youtube preview and was profoundly disturbed by Cortana: I really do not want my computer to interact with me socially. I do not want it to make helpful suggestions based on all the intelligent spying it's been doing. I'd rather blunder along in my frail humanity.


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## Edward

VictorBravo said:


> I frankly don't see how any lawyer could sign on to these terms in good conscience. I didn't have those terms for Windows 7.



It seems that a lawyer should, at least, get an advisory opinion from his or her state bar. That may give me something to stir up.


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## Edward

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> Stay secure.



You might read Mr. Bottomly's post below, if you think your information is secure with 10. It's just a question of who is hacking you.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

Edward said:


> GraceOverwhelmsMe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay secure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might read Mr. Bottomly's post below, if you think your information is secure with 10. It's just a question of who is hacking you.
Click to expand...


I did. I didn't think it qualified a response. The link he pointed to is to Microsoft's generalized Privacy and Cookies documentation. It is not about Windows 10 specifically. It is a broad-spectrum document that covers all of their services. If you have a Microsoft account and you want to sync between computers, they have to have access to your data. If you have OneDrive they have access to your data. If you have Outlook.com they have access to your data. If you use Skype, they have access to your data.

I hope none of you have a Google account at all. I hope none of you have a Facebook account at all. I hope none of you have any apps on your phones. I hope none of you use any webmail service. 

This is very standard language that is actually pretty tame compared to other things I've read.

The fact that their default privacy settings are set to "share everything!" bothers me, and I'm sure they're going to change that given the outcry of privacy folks, but the only people who are going to be worried about that are people who are worried about that, so they'll take care of it. 

If you have anything that you need to be ABSOLUTELY secure, then you should have an encrypted profile on an encrypted hard drive, and you should be using a GNU/Linux distribution, because this kind of language in one way or another is in practically every ToS out there now.

As for being secure - If you read what Microsoft will use it for is to protect you or to stop you from doing something illegal - hackers will use it to profit from it. I guess the choice is yours. If you're that paranoid about this language (which is a broad sweeping usage for ALL of Microsoft's services, not something new hidden in Windows 10) then you should probably think about switching to a different operating system. Probably something not built by Microsoft or Apple or Google.


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## VictorBravo

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> If you're that paranoid about this language (which is a broad sweeping usage for ALL of Microsoft's services, not something new hidden in Windows 10) then you should probably think about switching to a different operating system.



Yes, I am paranoid about such things. That's why I do not use gmail accounts or Microsoft accounts or Facebook, etc. I don't use the cloud for client data (contrary to the prevailing trend).

What bothers me about this is that the operating system itself is set up to use the cloud for everything. The opt out procedure is fairly convoluted and not at all straightforward.

This was not the case with previous operating systems, only services.

Our state (Washington) already has an advisory opinion on this. One of the things it says is:



> Because the technology changes rapidly, and the security threats evolve equally rapidly, a lawyer using online data storage must not only perform initial due diligence when selecting a provider and entering into an agreement, but must also monitor and regularly review the security measures of the provider.



The language of the terms of service is too broad, regardless if it has become "industry standard" for consumers. There are cloud based services that cater to attorneys and other professionals that recognize privacy concerns and incorporate them into their terms of service. The new wrinkle here is that an operating system is the portal for such "services."

Until things are clearer, and the dust settles, I think I'll have to pass.



GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> If you read what Microsoft will use it for is to protect you or to stop you from doing something illegal - hackers will use it to profit from it.



Yes, that is what it said, "for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone...." But the agreement does not restrict it to such wholesome-sounding motives. If I have a client facing criminal charges and I take notes about what he tells me he has done in the past, Microsoft's "good faith" notion might be to turn over my client files to the FBI. 

That breach could be laid at my feet. Do we really want to trust the "good faith" of corporations when it comes to civil liberties?


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

VictorBravo said:


> Do we really want to trust the "good faith" of corporations when it comes to civil liberties?



Microsoft will only give up your private files to the FBI if the FBI comes to them and requests information from them. Microsoft isn't the NSA. They aren't scanning all of your data looking for some sort of illegal behavior in your client files. If they have reason to suspect (security alert, FBI lead, NSA lead, lead from a tipster or something) that something in your files is showing that YOU are pirating software, or YOU are spamming people or YOU are breaking Microsoft ToS, or YOU are a terrorist, then they will go into your files. Another instance is if there is a very nasty virus that is running around in a file called "HAHAVIRUS.exe," they will scan your directories for this file... And they need access to "private" folders. 

But this is why corporations like Microsoft have business contracts.

Google Apps has a much better privacy policy when you are a corporation and plan on using them in the course of doing business.

If you're looking at upgrading your computer to the free version of Windows 10 *Home*, then you are upgrading to a consumer-level operating system, not an enterprise or business-level one where privacy and terms of service are likely different.

Perhaps you should get in contact with Microsoft about getting a business-level contract and license with a privacy policy that you can sleep easily at night with.

By the way, you can keep your computer offline and never connected to the internet and then you won't have to worry about anything.


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## VictorBravo

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> Microsoft will only give up your private files to the FBI if the FBI comes to them and requests information from them. Microsoft isn't the NSA. They aren't scanning all of your data looking for some sort of illegal behavior in your client files. If they have reason to suspect (security alert, FBI lead, NSA lead, lead from a tipster or something) that something in your files is showing that YOU are pirating software, or YOU are spamming people or YOU are breaking Microsoft ToS, or YOU are a terrorist, then they will go into your files.



I appreciate your input and perspective, really. 

But in the world of criminal defense, this kind of thinking is considered naive. Of course Microsoft will only do what it thinks is right (I hope). But they are operating in "good faith," which is a legal term of art that means their duty is quite low.

As in, suppose a Microsoft rep gets a phone call from an FBI agent saying he's investigating a potential crime. The agent asks MS to send them copies of Vic's files because he is known to represent a suspect.

Microsoft says, "OK" in the good faith belief that it was a proper request.

Now I'm having to go to the court on a Motion to Suppress on 4th Amendment grounds because it was an unlawful search without probable cause. The State gets to respond: "your honor, Mr. Bottomly gave those files to Microsoft with out any limitation other than good faith. Voluntary disclosure to third parties on such limited terms is a waiver of confidentiality. It was not an unlawful search because there is no privacy issue...." And so forth.

Yes, it's things like this that keeps me awake at night. That and the sick cat.

I use Windows 7 Professional. The Windows 10 upgrade offers me the consumer version. I've tried negotiating with MS before with some success, but it is time consuming.

But, maybe I'm just a special case. As I look at the issue being discussed online, I see folks' reaction ranging from "what else is new" to "the world is ending."

I've never been a Microsoft basher. I've used its products since the early MSDOS days. I'm a fairly advanced user of MS Word and prefer it to all other options. But I've never let them on my system without being assured that, at least, I could sue them if they breached their agreement. With this agreement, there's not a whole lot of assurance. Renegotiating it on my terms is probably a tremendous hassle. Maybe more of us will jump on it. 

I'm not sure where this all goes, but I'm mildly alarmed when I was complacent just a day ago.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

In your special case, you have a legitimate reason for NOT downgrading to any consumer-level things. But this isn't a problem with Microsoft or Windows 10. This is the way things are going, like it or not. They want professionals to use their professional products. Some of those Pro products don't even have any extra features - you're paying for the extra support and different terms of use/privacy.

Which is worse for you legally and/or professionally with your clients? Microsoft being jerks and having to deal with them, or you being negligent in properly protecting your computer by using an up-to-date operating system and software? What will your argument be? 

Imagine the legal ramifications of your refusal to upgrade your operating system. EOL rolls around and because you're afraid of what Microsoft MIGHT do with its new privacy policy, your operating system stops receiving security patches, and somebody finds a backdoor or some exploit. That hacker gains access to your computer along with all of your client files. Now your client files aren't just in the hands of Microsoft and other organizations that are keeping that data in-house. Now your client files are in the dark web being bought and sold by people who can use that information for their financial and sadistic benefit.

If you're not willing to put in the extra time to haggle with Microsoft over terms, then I'd honestly suggest you switch to Linux. By refusing to upgrade your operating system, you are refusing to do everything in your power to protect your client's data. To me, that's way worse than worrying about what Microsoft MIGHT do.

If I went to a doctor, a lawyer or anywhere where my personal information might be stored on the computer and I saw that they were using Windows XP or Windows Vista, I wouldn't give them anything. I'd leave. I'd know my data won't be safe. If you don't upgrade to SOMETHING besides Windows 7, you'll eventually reach EOL, and then you're setting yourself up for some serious hurt. It'll be way worse than having to deal with the courts over the 4th. You'll be dealing with civil courts when your clients are suing your pants off for not doing everything you could to protect their confidentiality.


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## a mere housewife

I'd care a lot more about how carefully my lawyer read things. I probably wouldn't even look at his operating system.


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## VictorBravo

GraceOverwhelmsMe said:


> By refusing to upgrade your operating system, you are refusing to do everything in your power to protect your client's data. To me, that's way worse than worrying about what Microsoft MIGHT do.



True enough, but I'm not refusing. Just waiting for the dust to settle after being surprised.


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## GraceOverwhelmsMe

VictorBravo said:


> GraceOverwhelmsMe said:
> 
> 
> 
> By refusing to upgrade your operating system, you are refusing to do everything in your power to protect your client's data. To me, that's way worse than worrying about what Microsoft MIGHT do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True enough, but I'm not refusing. Just waiting for the dust to settle after being surprised.
Click to expand...

Now this I can get down with. Chances are they'll be forced to modify their terms anyway. You have some time.


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## Shimei

People are unaware of how vulnerable most often they are while sitting online with a connection that is 24-7 like a server. I remember the days of XP when the Netbios exploit was never spoken about or acknowledged by Microsoft. One could scan or sniff the internet looking for vulnerable computers. 

I guess one could reduce the chances of being exploited by unplugging the internet connection while not in use, but that is seldom done. The computer stays online day and night waiting for some hat to find them... just like a server. 

God bless,
William


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## Semper Fidelis

Vic,

I understand your concern but the terms primarily are of concern if you're using OneDrive. An OS can do nothing unless it's connected to the Internet. I think those who fear what the government might subpoena in the future probably should not use any kind of Cloud storage service. The reason why those terms weren't in prior versions is because OneDrive is one of the standard services built in to the OS now where you had to install it as a separate application in the past. If you use OneDrive or Google Drive or Dropbox (or any other online file storage or email based system) then those companies are required to comply with the laws of the country they operate within regarding the subpoena of those records in criminal investigations.


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## Wayne

Vic:

Have you considered switching over to a Linux OS?


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## VictorBravo

Wayne said:


> Have you considered switching over to a Linux OS?



I have a few versions on some older computers for fun. But for work, no.

I'm running several applications that require Windows and I'm not inclined to give them up just yet. Not only do I really like Word 2010 over any of the linux competitors, I'm running some case management software that I like. But most important, my VAGcom program (for analyzing my wife's 2001 Audi allroad) runs only on Windows. (I do have an XP netbook without internet running it, so I suppose that's not really an excuse).



Semper Fidelis said:


> Vic,
> 
> I understand your concern but the terms primarily are of concern if you're using OneDrive. An OS can do nothing unless it's connected to the Internet. I think those who fear what the government might subpoena in the future probably should not use any kind of Cloud storage service.



I've settled down and am not so worked up. I don't have a problem with subpoenas--those can apply to my physical files anyway and there are procedures to deal with that. I was concerned about the grey area "informal" requests that have become fairly common with data carriers.

There are cloud providers with different terms of service and I've considered those as a potential option. But, really, for me as a one-man show, I don't need the cloud. I backup my work files every couple hours to a hard drive and a high-capacity sd card. Back up again at home every night. I keep additional document files backed up on flash drives in my brief case. (Yes, they are all encrypted).

Basically, if my computer were stolen, my house burnt down, and my office ransacked all at the same time, I'd still be able to have all my work product over the past 9 years at my fingertips with a $350 Walmart laptop.

I can pretty much do without the cloud and will get Windows 10 when I get assurance that I can get the professional version. I'll just opt out of all the "services." Maybe this year I'll buy a Surface Pro with it preinstalled when I'm convinced it's better than my Series 7 Slate (which has been amazing).


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## PuritanCovenanter

Can anyone tell me if my Excel and Word documents will be okay and transfer if I change to 10? I think I am using a 2007 version with Windows 7.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

I cancelled my Sugarsync and Dropbox accounts. Use Crashplan and Google Drive, the latter just because I get 1TB storage free with a Chromebook Pixel I purchased last year. Crashplan lets me maintain versioned sync backups to one of my local network hard drives as well as the cloud if I choose to use Crashplan's unlimited storage cloud service.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Can anyone tell me if my Excel and Word documents will be okay and transfer if I change to 10? I think I am using a 2007 version with Windows 7.


I have had no problems with these earlier versions of Office using Windows 10. You might consider a subscription to Office 365 and never have to worry about Office products any further and be able to install Office on five of your computers at home.


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## Semper Fidelis

VictorBravo said:


> I've settled down and am not so worked up. I don't have a problem with subpoenas--those can apply to my physical files anyway and there are procedures to deal with that. I was concerned about the grey area "informal" requests that have become fairly common with data carriers.
> 
> There are cloud providers with different terms of service and I've considered those as a potential option. But, really, for me as a one-man show, I don't need the cloud. I backup my work files every couple hours to a hard drive and a high-capacity sd card. Back up again at home every night. I keep additional document files backed up on flash drives in my brief case. (Yes, they are all encrypted).
> 
> Basically, if my computer were stolen, my house burnt down, and my office ransacked all at the same time, I'd still be able to have all my work product over the past 9 years at my fingertips with a $350 Walmart laptop.
> 
> I can pretty much do without the cloud and will get Windows 10 when I get assurance that I can get the professional version. I'll just opt out of all the "services." Maybe this year I'll buy a Surface Pro with it preinstalled when I'm convinced it's better than my Series 7 Slate (which has been amazing).



I think they are probably vague not because they want to mess with people's data but because there are certain instances where they might need to use it and don't want to be accused of taking data they didn't say they were going to use. For example, Microsoft has one of the biggest and most sophisticated operations regarding malware because users opt to send data to Microsoft when a program crashes. In fact, in some cases, some antivirus and malware makers have been detected because they crashed their own systems during the creation of root kit attacks and the numbskulls sent the crash report to Microsoft and they were able to determine the source.

Imagine, for instance, if a person's machine has been compromised by malware (this can happen by merely visiting some sites) and it becomes a zombie being used to generate spam or some other malicious activity. Between the ISP and Microsoft, both want to determine what's going on with that machine with or without the user's permission because it's not only using the ISP's bandwidth maliciously but the OS is compromised. There may be some information that gets shipped from the user computer that lands in the hands of Microsoft because of this kind of problem and Microsoft is going to need to act on it. They may not need the user's data but they also don't want to be sued because thair TOS didn't cover them getting information even if it wasn't them taking that data so much as the zombie computer doing weird stuff. I can think of a number of similar scenarios.

I'm not naive but I also know how this Cloud business works. It really hurt the bottom line of the major Cloud providers when it was revealed what the NSA was up to in the Snowden leaks. Their business requires trust of their customers. This is why you see the U.S. Government going after Apple and Google and others right now because they're refusing to just give the government an easy backdoor to user data. They're global companies and can't afford to be seen as a tool of the government.

I'm not trying to talk you in to the whole thing but I'm just expressing why I grant OneDrive a modicum of trust. Yes, your Surface will come with some services built in but you can configure what kind of information you're willing to share with Microsoft and its 3rd party providers. You can also configure OneDrive as to what you put into the Cloud. I personally love OneDrive because I pay for Office 365 (Military Appreciation) and get 1 TB of Cloud storage. It also interacts very well with Office 2013 in terms of picking up where you left off on documents across multiple computers as well as your Desktop, etc. It saves me a lot of manual syncing time.


Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Use Crashplan and Google Drive,


I use Crashplan as well to back up my data. I have about 2TB backed up that way. I have a home NAS that syncs to Crashplan. Thus, I have a local, durable storage solution for quick backup and recovery along with a more durable (but slower) backup in Crashplan. I have a 150Mbps internet connection but 2 TB takes a long time to download.


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## Ask Mr. Religion

I have OneDrive as well. My issue is that I have all my personal folders subsumed in "Google Drive" and nesting "OneDrive" as a folder therein (or nesting Google Drive within OneDrive) causes all sorts of sync issues. The only way I get it to work is to copy all my personal folders to OneDrive, in effect, doubling the hard disk space used on my laptop. Accordingly, OneDrive is used just when I want to mirror a personal folder therein for various reasons.


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