# What's a good way of defending the doctrine of total depravity?



## pegasister (Jun 12, 2014)

I was talking to a friend about a semi-pelagian coworker of his, and reminding my friend of what Romans 3 says about there being "no one righteous, no not one." Then an acquaintance of ours chimed in with "One might argue that those texts (from Romans) do not claim that man cannot choose good on occasion, but rather simply that man is not righteous." 

I told this person that it's not just a matter of those verses in isolation, but that the whole text of scripture speaks to man's fallen nature and inability to keep from sinning apart from God's grace, and moreover, that to argue for the ability of man on his own to do good is in defiance of what the church has taught historically. What more could I have said? I mean, the confessions I checked just pointed me to isolated verses. How does one make a cogent case for total depravity to someone who won't accept single verses? (It's hard for me to think the way he seems to because I've been Reformed several years now and I already understand that teaching as part of a system.)

Unfortunately I don't know this guy well enough yet to even know what position he holds on any major point of doctrine...


----------



## Jash Comstock (Jun 12, 2014)

pegasister said:


> Unfortunately I don't know this guy well enough yet to even know what position he holds on any major point of doctrine...



Considering this statement, it may not be wise to debate this fellow. There is no telling where he gets his theology from. It may be better to try to learn what framework he bases his ideas about theology on before isolating one key point and having it out with him. There could be much deeper issues that need to be talked about before this.


----------



## KeithW (Jun 15, 2014)

pegasister said:


> Then an acquaintance of ours chimed in with "One might argue that those texts (from Romans) do not claim that man cannot choose good on occasion, but rather simply that man is not righteous."



This might be closer to the Biblical truth than you originally thought, based on the difference in that person's understanding between "good" and "righteous". This is where Puritan writers always threw me. They always explained man has the inability to do "good", yet rarely explained what that might mean. What they left unsaid was being good or doing good with respect to having that acceptable with God. A better word would have been "righteous", right standing with God. Within the world-system we have the ability to do good and evil. But we are born without ability to do anything to make as right with God.

The phrase "total depravity" seems to be a relatively modern invention, where it was originally called "original sin". I went looking for original sin in Christian confessions this year and found them to succinctly explain the concept quite well. There are many to choose from.


Canons of the Council of Carthage 418 AD
Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD
Augsburg Confession 1530
Smalcald Articles 1537 - by Martin Luther
Canons of Dordt 1618
Belgic Confession 1618
First Baptist Confession of Faith 1644
Westminster Confession of Faith 1646
Second Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
The consistency throughout the history of the Christian church I find to be reassuring.

Now to Scriptures. I had recent opportunity to write a summary (excerpts of phrases from the KJV) for a Bible study group. These might be helpful

1 Cor. 15:21-22
By one man, Adam

came death
all men died
By one man, Jesus Christ

comes the resurrection of the dead
they that are Christ's shall be made alive
Rom. 5:12-21
By one man, the First Adam:

by one
by one man
by one man's offence
by the offence of one
through the offence of one
by one that sinned
by one man's disobedience
By one man came:

sin entered into the world
death entered the world by sin
death passed upon all men
many [all] were made sinners
death reigns
many [all] are dead
sin has reigned unto death
judgment came upon all men to condemnation
By one man, the Last Adam, Jesus Christ:

by one, Jesus Christ
by one man, Jesus Christ
by the righteousness of one
by the obedience of one
By Jesus Christ came:

the gift, by the grace of God, has abounded* unto many
the free gift of justification
they receive abundance of grace
the gift of righteousness
shall reign in life
the free gift came unto justification of life
shall many be made righteous
grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life


----------



## Free Christian (Jun 15, 2014)

Hello Emily. I am no expert on the matter but the writings of Calvin deal greatly with the subject. In fact I was just given a book of sermons just yesterday in Church by my Minister dealing with T.U.L.I.P ... Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints. It was written by a good friend of us both and Minister of the Word, Eric Turnbull from the Australian Free Church. Each of those 5 points are dealt with individually in sermons. Perhaps Mathew, Armourbearer, the one who gave it to me could point you in the direction to get a copy of this. Im sure it would be of great help.


----------



## Leslie (Jun 15, 2014)

Why should anyone who reads the news ever question the doctrine of total depravity?


----------



## puritanpilgrim (Jun 15, 2014)

I did a sunday school on total depravity:

The Total Depravity of Man | SermonAudio.com


----------



## earl40 (Jun 16, 2014)

Leslie said:


> Why should anyone who reads the news ever question the doctrine of total depravity?



Because many Christians come to faith so early in life or under horrible doctrine they see doing what God commands as a natural instinct that all people have which includes the ability of trusting in Jesus. I once asked my MIL if exercising faith is easy or hard. She answered "both". As I think of her answer I realized she was correct because the first act of faith is the "easiest" because believing Jesus unto justification comes naturally from a born again heart and the rest of our life of faith is a struggle against the flesh that still is within us which is the hard part.


----------



## The Baptist (Jun 16, 2014)

It is all as complicated as God is deep. Which is pretty deep. Ha. 

I agree that fallen man does good and that he is unrighteous. With a perfectly Holy God, one sin is enough to condemn. As Sproul often uses as an example, the phrase, "nobody is perfect" is true of humanity, but not God and imperfection, especially the breaking of the law, is detestable to God. Even man's good deeds as the scripture says are "as filthy rags". They are done without reverence for God and without giving Him his due. If so, then they are temporally good, while being also eternally sinful and evil. So no one does good, which leads to righteousness in any aspect of life. From our words to actions, to love etc. 

I was reading psalm 118 this week and really loved these verses.

19 Open to me the gates of righteousness,
that I may enter through them
and give thanks to the Lord.
20 This is the gate of the Lord;
the righteous shall enter through it.
21 I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.

Open to me the gates of righteousness. The author knows they can't open those gates themselves. Christ is that gate, and it's open! Praise God.


----------



## Theogenes (Jun 16, 2014)

Take a van load of screaming children to the grocery store....that oughta do it!


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 17, 2014)

You could start simply:

the lost...


- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Then go deep:

*TOTAL DEPRAVITY* (_Radical Corruption_) - "_The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?_? (Jer 17:9)
Man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God, for their actions are wrongly motivated, that is, not for the glory of God, and are but _filthy rags_ in the eyes of God. More here.


*See*: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3


----------



## Scott1 (Jun 17, 2014)

Keith, Mr. Religion, others have posted helpfully here.

First, if this person is not at least open to the authority of Scripture, you're not going to convince him (now). But, it is still worth sharing because God wants us to "given an answer" to every man about our faith I Peter 3:15, Colossians 4:6. God may use that later, or now in a way you cannot imagine in their lives.

Second, point out the Apostle Paul is quoting the Old Testament here. While He is adding new revelation and clarity to man's fallen nature, the context is explained by reference to the Old Testament both Psalm 14:1-3; Psalm 53:1-3, which would have been familiar to many of God's people at that time. The context is the (overall) sin of man.

God's standard is perfect righteousness and holiness. A holy God cannot overlook only a few sins, or balance "good" works and forget the sins because He is a Holy God. 



> Matthew 5:48
> Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



Our Lord said this in the context of the Sermon on the Mount, a great, extended discourse on how sinful man cannot withstand the judgment of a holy God.

So, respond with Scripture to your friend, rely on the Spirit to do His work.

Don't sweat his ignorance or rebellion against the truth of God. Don't allow it be distorted, answer every challenge born of ignorance or sincere inquiry as the Spirit speaking in the Word enables you!


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 17, 2014)

It is also important to correct a common misconception that arises in people’s minds: that the T of TULIP – _Total_ Depravity – “[does] *not* mean that every man is as evil as he could possibly be, nor that man is unable to recognise the will of God; nor yet, that he is unable to do any good towards his fellow man, or even give outward allegiance to the worship of God. What they [Calvinists] do mean is that when man fell in the Garden of Eden he fell in his ‘totality’. The whole personality of man has been affected by the Fall, and sin extends to the whole of the faculties — the will, the understanding, the affections and all else.” (_The Five Points of Calvinism_, by W.J. Seaton [free online])

In other words, it means that man in his natural state has Total _Inability_ to please God in any respect, and is actually dead to God, and thus unable (hence unwilling) to approach Him, except God first make that man alive to Him by the new birth, or regeneration.


----------

