# What is the verdict on organ use in worship?



## Puritan Sailor (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm just curious if their are any of you Puritan lovers out there who despise the organ as much as I, and as much as the Puritans too 
I find the organ immensely difficult to sing along with and quite distracting. 
I've also become convinced that when it comes to musical accompaniment in worship, less is better. A simple piano or guitar will do, accapella is best (as long as everyone knows the tunes). 
Why is it that so many reformed churches still cling to those dusty old organs? 
So lets take an informal vote. 
What is the verdict on organ use?


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## LawrenceU (Aug 7, 2003)

Organs make great concert instruments or boat anchors. They all too often make great idols, especially when they are old, handmade and 'dontated' by . . . oh, that's another story.

As far as acapella music. Even though I pastor a church that is anything but that, I prefer it. I don't believe a scriptural argument can be made or its exclusivity. Although, I can make them all. I was raised in that stream of belief, and there it was considered an issue of almost damnable sin.

[Edited on 8-7-2003 by LawrenceU]


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## PastorJoe (Aug 7, 2003)

Well, here the Puritans would say our church's practice of the regulative principle is off the mark, for we take more of a canonical (OT and NT) approach to applying it, rather than an exclusively NT approach. We believe instruments are warranted by Scripture, and therefore use them. We use natural instruments, save an electric bass. Mandallan, dobro, acoustic guitars and sometimes a simple percussion drum.

Personally, I hate the organ and find it distracting. And those riduculous organ solos before the last verse drive me crazy. I prefer hymns written prior to 1850 in general and like to sing them without accompaniment. But in our church, as we are reaching the lost for Christ who have never grown up in church, we sing mostly newer songs and a lot of original music written for us and by us. I think the church ought to create music that reflects the redemption of its culture, not the abandonment of it (unless it is beyond redemption). We incorporate one or two hymns in each service to connect the body with our heritage as well as the great doctrine reflected in Luther and Watts hymns.


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## blhowes (Aug 7, 2003)

When you talk about hating organs, are you primarily referring to the pipe organs? 

The ones I've had more exposure to are the electric organs. To me, these organs sound great when played by an experienced organist, especially when a piano is played at the same time by an experienced pianist.

Bob


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 7, 2003)

Bob, I mean both types. Though the electric ones are a little easier to sing along with than the pipe ones but I still abhor the sound when trying to sing worship songs. Almost like glorified bagpipes


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## blhowes (Aug 7, 2003)

puritansailor,
Come to think of it, the last church I was a member of was just about the only one I've been to that had the organ. Most of the other churches before and since (except the RB church I visited last week, which used one of those midi type organs) used the piano or some other instrument.

Thinking back, I can now understand what you're talking about. During most of my 20-year stay at the church, both the piano and the organ were used to accompany the hymns. It may be that the sound of the piano augmented the sound of the organ.

For a while, when the piano player moved out of the area and the organ player left the church, we were instrumentless and sang everything acapella. 

Then, a new family joined the church and once in a while the wife would help out on Wednesdays by playing the organ or the piano during the opening hymns. It was definitely easier to sing along with the songs when she played the piano by itself than when she played the organ by itself. 

Turns out I'm closer to your view of the organ than I thought, though not so close as to compare it with bag pipes. 

Bob


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## kceaster (Aug 7, 2003)

*I cannot be a hypocrite...*

...since I am the church organist. I am sure there are those in our congregation who hate it, but In my humble opinion, it is the most sublime sound in the world.

&quot;A Mighty Fortress is Our God,&quot; deserves a strong instrument. Our organ scarcely does it justice, but is what God has provided for now.

Bach is the consummate church musician, I cannot imagine his music without an organ.

I, too, rail against the organs that sound like a skating rink or a carnival. Most of the cheap organs built in the 70's resemble this sound. Those are not church organs.

At my site under music, I have placed two mp3's. I would like all of you to download and listen to it. If you still hate organ after that, I am okay with your opinion. To me, this is true organ sounds and music.

One is the arrangement by Bach of &quot;Now Thank We All Our God,&quot; and the second is his arrangement of &quot;A Mighty Fortress.&quot;

Mind you, this is not accompaniment to which one would sing. This is strictly prelude/postlude music.

Please let me know what you think.

Federal Theology Music Page

In Christ,

KC


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## blhowes (Aug 7, 2003)

kc,
Wow! That was fantastic. The Lord certainly has blessed you with a wonderful talent.

That would certainly help prepare my heart for worship. 

Bob


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## LawrenceU (Aug 7, 2003)

[quote:f0d48bde60]Almost like glorified bagpipes [/quote:f0d48bde60]

What? Bagpipes are glorified!! At lease Great Highland Pipes. They are the celestial instrument of the armies of heaven. I've made two requests of my wife pertaining to my funeral if I should pass away prior to her. The first is that my casket is borne on shoulders by the pall bearers. The second is that I'm piped home to the strains of Going Home and Amazing Grace.

(Note my avatar!)


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## LawrenceU (Aug 7, 2003)

KC, 
I'll not deny that the organ can be a wonderful concert instrument. I really appreciate Bach's fugues. But, I just don't appreciate it as music for congregational singing. I'm sort of polar on this.

You do have a talent. I could never keep track of all those stops, key boards, and pedals to boot!


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## blhowes (Aug 7, 2003)

[b:08058bf500]Lawrence wrote:[/b:08058bf500]
What? Bagpipes are glorified!! 

Personally, I rate listening to bagpipe music right up there with listening to Christian heavy metal music.

(the younger folks are thinking &quot;Amen! He loves bagpipe music!&quot; ... The older folks are thinking &quot;Amen! He hates bagpipe music&quot; )

Bob

[Edited on 8-7-2003 by blhowes]


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## doulosChristou (Aug 7, 2003)

[quote:5f04c04810][i:5f04c04810]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:5f04c04810]
&quot;A Mighty Fortress is Our God,&quot; deserves a strong instrument. [/quote:5f04c04810] Amen! I happen to love the church organ. Our church does not have one. We have a piano, violin, flute, and cello. Those preludes were wonderful! Thanks, KC.

In Christ, dC


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## kceaster (Aug 7, 2003)

*Bob...*

[quote:9843a745d9][i:9843a745d9]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:9843a745d9]
kc,
Wow! That was fantastic. The Lord certainly has blessed you with a wonderful talent.

That would certainly help prepare my heart for worship. 

Bob [/quote:9843a745d9]

ER...Yeah!?! I play real good, don't I.

That is not me playing on those mp3's. Those are just some recordings I have. 

Sorry for the mixup. I can play hymns, but not Bach!:wr51:

KC


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## pastorway (Aug 7, 2003)

A nice organ with a talented organist is great.

BUT most organs in churches sound like they should be used in funeral parlors or carnivals - and sadly many churches are one or the other! 

I am glad we do not have one!

Phillip


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## JohnV (Aug 7, 2003)

Being form Dutch background, and brought up in the Dutch Reformed setting, I have had pipe organ accompaniment since I was born. It is only in the last few years that I have been in congregations where only the piano is used. As a matter of fact, I was the pianist in the one. 

Pipe organs are beautiful instruments. And they do not make good anchors, because they are made of so many parts put together. The console is not the organ itself. But I am with Lawrence on this, to a degree. 

It seems that a good pipe organ has a great effect on spiritual eyesight. I witnessed, in person, to my horror, a church organist telling a young lad, who was greatly interested in church music, to buzz off; that if he wanted to bang away on an instrument, to go and &quot;play with&quot; the grand piano, which, to any good musician, was three times the instrument the rag tag organ was. I was shocked, to say the least. I love organ, I can play organ, I seriously believe it has a place in worship, if done by a good congregational organist (not a virtuoso  ) But this made that instrument odious to me. Not because how it effected me, but in how the youngster must have felt. I have seen that kind of &quot;respect&quot; for the organ many times before, and it turns me off. 

I grew up having one of those trained and accomplished organists as the church organist. He was, to me, the epitiome of what a church organist should be. And if there were more like him, I don't think this would be a subject of discussion on this board. 

There, now that I have overstated my views, I am going back to the &quot;bluegrass&quot; section. 

(By the way, I did not vote.)


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## Gregg (Aug 7, 2003)

I really like having the organ in our church. The Lady who plays the organ for our church does an excellent job and plays piano also. 

My Grandmother played organ for her church for many years before she died.

I could listen to the nice old traditional hymns played on the organ all day. I would someday like to learn to play.


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## ChristianasJourney (Aug 8, 2003)

I have no problems with organs for worship...I have no problems with most instruments being used during worship...After all worship is a matter of the heart.

I know an absolutely wonderful organist who has played on some of the finest organs in the U.S. My brother has two organs. I learned to play &quot;piano&quot; on an organ. I hate organ music!  

Well, maybe hate is too strong a word, but after listening to Toccata and Fugue one warm summer night for three hours straight while my brother tested stereo equipment, whatever fondness I had for organs completely vanished. 

Organ music strikes the resonate note inside my soul, which creates a wolf note on my nerves.

I credit organ music to almost literally (and by literally I mean &quot;literally&quot; ) sending me teetering along the brink of of a nervous breakdown (not that I really know what a nervious breakdown is, but that's what if felt like at the time. -- Remember that warm summer night? I knew I had a serious problem when I opened my mouth to ask a question and all that came out was a high pitched squeaky desperate plea.:sniff: I had to spend several minutes alone with God trying to regain control of myself.


[Edited on 8-8-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


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## JohnV (Aug 8, 2003)

Yeah, Janice, but how do you really feel about it? Sounds like for you it's &quot;right up there with bagpipes and Christian heavy metal.&quot; 

Amazing Grace on the bagpipes, with a military band, I've never heard it done more heavenly than that. The military band drones the accompaniment, while the unison bagpipes, and I mean very plural, sing out the melody. Wow!

I think, though, that a lot depends on who you have heard, or who you are used to, when it come to organs. Three hours of Tacotta and Fugue can be a bit much, even if it's Virgil Fox. If someone messes it all up for you, so that you identify that with organs, then I can sympathize with those shivers. 

But many hymns are written for the organ. I find it very hard to write music without a keyboard of some kind, and the organ gives you the best range to do it. (Come to think of it, I find it hard to write music with or without keyboard, I can't do it anyways.) A piano requires a large span to get an effect that, in the end, is only a poor copy of what an organ can do. It's like trying to do Amazing Grace like the Bagpipes with the military band on the piano. It's just not the same. 

There are also very good piano pieces that don't sound as well on the organ, without a major rework of them. And if you are into contemporary worship music, then an organ is almost out of place, unless you also incorporate some that is done for that instrument. You just don't do Put Your Hand In the Hand on the organ and get the same congregational effect that you would with some well chosen combination of instruments. Similarly, you just won't get A Mighty Fortress is Our God done as well by anything less than a full orchestra, which is what the organ was originally meant to replace in the church.

If you have a large congregation, what are you going to do, have a half dozen pianos? amplify the instruments? bring in a concert band? or have an organ? Doesn't it depend on the music? Doesn't it depend on the decorum of the service? Does't it have to do with the place of added features to the service?

And aren't we back where this thread started?

I know, I promised to go back to the Bluegrass thread; but we'd put our instruments down, and I wasn't sleepy yet.


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## ChristianasJourney (Aug 8, 2003)

You could always compose on the black keys of a piano...like Irving Berlin. :biggrin:


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 8, 2003)

I guess I have come to the conclusion over the last couple years that the human voice is to be the primary instrument for worship. I used to lead the worship teams in my charasmatic days, with my &quot;praise&quot; team. The music we played, I found anyway, was really distracting from the content of even the contemporary songs. The music was more used to produce an emotional experience which they called the &quot;presence of God.&quot; After leaving that movement and studying what sincere heart worship really is, I generally find musical accompaniment to be too distracting and it can often cover up the human voice. The pipe organ, in particular, is just as bad as a modern worship team in drowning out the human voice and also seems to be used to produce an emotional experience rather than an aid in singing. I'm not saying that organ music isn't ok to listen to once and a while but it certainly doesn't help me in worship. 
:wr50: more

PuritanSailor

p.s.- I will concede that Amzing Grace does sound good on bagpipes


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## ChristianasJourney (Aug 8, 2003)

Just a thought...As an amateur singer with 7+ years of voice lessons under my belt, but not someone who has a naturally really good ear, without instrumental accompaniment I find myself spending more energy reading the music and trying to hit the right note, and less time worshipping than I do with with accompaniment.


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## puriteen18 (Oct 25, 2003)

As an organist I can't resist but to reply.

In my opinoin the organ can be much help or much hurt depending on how it is used. I find that why the organ is played by itself (prelude, postlude, collection) it doesn't hurt to get loud, bu tduring hymns I prefer the organ to accompany the congregation not to deafen them. 

I sometimes prefer to sing accapella. I'm Baptist, and at our church, as well as other Baptists that I've been to, we have a tradition of sining certain hymns accapella. These are usually what we consider 'baptism' hymns. We do this in remembering riverside baptisms where there weren't any instruments. (Even as late as a year ago our church met in a separate buildign for baptism because of our recent sanctuary burning.) There is nothing more uplifting than singing 'On Jordan Stormy Banks' [i:1e78e7323c]old-style[/i:1e78e7323c].

I would have to heartly agree that sometimes the church organ sounds more like a circus parade o ran old theatre organ. It has also been my experience that all organs (even bad ones) can be made acceptable. I've played on alot of organs at Associational meetings and stuff. From the real pipe organs all the way to the dreaded 'spinet baldwins' and Hammonds. 



I prefer 'chamber organs' (these are little pipe organs similiar to the ones used during the renassaince period); they have clear sounding stops and do the job well. They also make little breating noises and clacks that I find strangely calming, but these are too quiet to bother anyone but the organist. However, the electronic type is more common. On these less is always more. As long as the organist uses few stops it should sound fine. Also, always use flute stops on these and leave the diapsons, principles, and reeds alone. You usually can't go wrong with just flutes on any instrument.

Well I've probably talked more about this than any one even wanted to know so I guess I 'll try to make an end of it now.

Hope I haven' tbored anyone too much.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 26, 2003)

This quote:
&quot;In my opinoin the organ can be much help or much hurt depending on how it is used.&quot;

This is the heart of it all. TV is not evil in and of itself - it is how it is used. Does the RP negate musical instruments? Answer: as much as it negates ANY kind of music for worship at all (of which we do not have any that is inspired so it is all &quot;man-made&quot.


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## cupotea (Oct 26, 2003)

*mmmmm, organ and piano...*

I really like a well played organ. I also enjoy our church's piano accompianment. God has blessed our church with wonderful voices and everyone sings their hearts out. Sometimes I will stop singing and just listen...wow!

A badly played organ will make me sweat and itch. A badly sung hymn will also make me sweat and itch. I guess my conclusion is...play the organ well, accompny on piano well and sing yer hearts out!!! Do it as unto the Lord.



badly played instruments are a travesty! &quot;If the cats begin to yowl, it's time to throw in the towel&quot;.

play a joke on the organist and fiddle with all the settings. crank the volume, get the drums going 1000 beats a minute, max the &quot;vibretto&quot;, don't own up to it... etc etc. loads of fun and only gets funnier each time you do it!! 

[Edited on 10-26-2003 by daviddaviddaviddavid]


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## yeutter (Nov 25, 2003)

The Dutch Reformed Churches early on in their history permitted the use of organ and other instrumental music. How is it that the Churches that gave us the Cannons of Dordt has a different view of the proper form of worship then the Puritan and Covenanters?
I think all branches of the Dutch Reformed Churches continue to use organs including normally orthodox stalwarts like the Protestant Reformed Churches.
I do not know where the Heritage Netherland Reformed Congregations fall out on this issue.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 25, 2003)

The HNRC in Grand Rapids has a huge organ. I hate it when I visit there but the preaching is excellent so I guess you have to live with it.


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## DexCisco (Dec 9, 2003)

If your biggest concern is whether you should use an organ or not, consider yourself lucky.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 10, 2003)

[quote:0ea2cf87ee][i:0ea2cf87ee]Originally posted by DexCisco[/i:0ea2cf87ee]
If your biggest concern is whether you should use an organ or not, consider yourself lucky. [/quote:0ea2cf87ee]

My biggest concern is that worship be edifying and that God be glorified in it. I personally find the organ to be a huge distraction from that. But as the poll indicates here, I am in the minority. 
And you all call yourselves Puritans..... :wink1:


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## FrozenChosen (Jan 17, 2004)

[quote:13712c2258][i:13712c2258]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:13712c2258]
Just a thought...As an amateur singer with 7+ years of voice lessons under my belt, but not someone who has a naturally really good ear, without instrumental accompaniment I find myself spending more energy reading the music and trying to hit the right note, and less time worshipping than I do with with accompaniment. [/quote:13712c2258]

I thought this might have needed some attention, perhaps, and didn't want it to get bogged down in all of this ridiculous organ discussion. Just kidding organists, actually, my mom has an organ in our house, but she never plays it. She going to donate it to the local university back home as long as she gets to practice for free.

Anyways, back to the quote:

I found myself struggling when I started playing electric bass in worship a while back, because I wasn't familiar with playing with the particular set up. By God's grace I learned how to play, though.

I just want to encourage you with your situation...I think that if you are striving with all your being to use your instrument (your voice, in this case) skillfully (Ps. 33:1-3) that God will see you desiring to use either his gifts or the talents he's given you from birth to his glory, then THAT is worship!

Our lives are called to be lives of worship, and this is one of the reasons we all [should] strive for excellence in every field we encounter. Can someone fix computers? Let him fix computers to the glory of God, knowing that he is helping others as God would have him do! Can someone cook well? Let him exercise his creativity to the glory of God, knowing that as he is creative, God is creator and everything wonderful comes from him!

Your desire for excellence is a godly desire, I do believe. 

God bless!


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## luvroftheWord (Feb 24, 2004)

My church has a pipe organ and a piano, and our minister of music is a WONDERFUL musician. He plays at least one piece by Bach almost every Sunday. It's incredible. We have a choir that sings heavenly songs every week. These things enhance the worship. The sounds of the organ's pipes and the piano's strings are singing praises to the Lord, just as we do with our voices. There is nothing distracting about it. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!

I wish there were great Christian composers alive today like J. S. Bach that were writing new pieces of music for the praise of our God. &quot;O sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things!&quot; (Psalm 98:1)


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