# Regeneration - with or without the Word



## Scott Bushey (Dec 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> If one has been converted without the Scriptures then there has been no conversion at all. It is the Word of God that renews our minds and God does not speak to us apart from it. We are not converted and then find the Scripture to back it up. God uses the Scripture to accomplish the conversion, be it salvation, sanctification, or growing in grace.
> 
> Psalm 19:7 - The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
> ...



Phillip,
You are, as usual, accurate. No one can be _converted_ without the _hearing_ of Gods message. They can however be regenerated without it........


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## pastorway (Dec 4, 2004)

Not so Scott. The word translated "converts" in Psalm 19:7 means to bring to life, not as in a conversion but as in regeneration. This means that the Word of God itself "is the power of God to salvation" - it is the Word that the Holy Spirit uses to grant us new life, to regenerate us. You cannot be regenerated without the Word.

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 4, 2004)

Phillip,
And what of John the Baptist?


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 4, 2004)

And David, I might add: Psalm 22:9-10 "Yet you [God] are he who took me [David] from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother´s breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother´s womb you have been my God" (ESV).


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## VanVos (Dec 5, 2004)

I think the examples of John baptist and David are the expections not the norm. I believe the norm is found in 1 Pet 1:23, James 1:18. We are regenerate and converted through the preached Word.

VanVos


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Jon,
The rationale gleened from John is that men can be regenerated without the word, yet not converted. What I said to Pastor way was:



> Phillip,
> You are, as usual, accurate. No one can be converted without the hearing of Gods message. They can however be regenerated without it........



Conversion only comes about under the preaching of Gods word. I hope you didn't think I was infering that men _can_ be saved apart from the preaching of Gods word.? 

John 3 supports this idea: 
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. 

How are men able to see the scriptures preached if they are not fiirst regenerated and given sight? The ordo shows that their are obvious components to salvation.

Rom 8:28 But we know that to the ones loving God all things work together for good, to those being called according to purpose; 
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. 
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 

Conversion is not regeneration, and regeneration is not conversion. 


[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## pastorway (Dec 5, 2004)

Psalm 19:7

The Law of the Lord is perfect, 

reviving the soul (NIV and ESV)
restoring the soul (NASB)
converting the soul (NKJV)

The Hebrew word translated as "reviving, restoring, or converting" means literally to "return to life" or "to be revived/restored from death." This is regeneration, not "conversion." 


Who says God did not use the Word to regenerate David and Johnny B? His ways are above ours.....

[Edited on 12-6-04 by pastorway]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Phillip,
Are you then saying that people can be regenerated outside of hearing the preached word, because that is what you would have to conclude in regards to John. He was filled w/ the HS while in the womb= regenerated and converted. Is this what you believe?


The law of the Lord IS perfect, and surely (able) to convert the soul! Regeneration does not necessarily require the same process as conversion i.e. John did not necessarily sit under preaching while in the womb, yet was filled w/ the spirit; Men must manufacture the information of the gospel to be converted. John was not filled with the spirit unless at the least regenerate; later when he heard the word, he was converted. This is the typical process that scripture supports.


[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## BobVigneault (Dec 6, 2004)

I must agree with Rev. Goundry. We must be very slow to form doctrines based on the Gospel narratives. My (not even a whole) two-cents worth.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Lets establish some facts:

Jesus said in John:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. 

Men cannot see things of the kingdom prior to being regenerated......

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 10:17
Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.

Faith comes to those whom _hear_ the word of God, correct?

Rom 10:14
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching? 

How can men believe if they have not heard?

Hence, John (in the womb) could not have been yet _converted_, but he must have been, in the least _regenerated_ (for he had the HS) while in the womb.

Regeneration is not conversion and conversion is not regeneration.

here's another example:

Jdg 13:5 For, behold, you are pregnant and bearing a son. And a razor shall not go on his head, for the boy shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb. And he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. 


[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

so a baby in the womb cannot have the Word preached to him?

and a person already born is in better shape to "hear" because while they are still dead in sin they are walking around on the earth and able to be "preached" to?

What stops God from preaching the Word to a baby in the womb? He does the impossible every time He saves any us. 

And - babies do hear in the womb and respond. 

All I am saying is that the Word is what the Spirit uses to call us to life and His work is not bound or limited by whether or not we have been born yet.....

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Phillip,
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

oh , yeah, now I see it, God cannot save a person who can't hear......or is mentally incapable of understanding the gospel, or has not been born yet.....

Scott - God can and does do the impossible every time He saves any of us. 

A baby in the womb can hear the gospel preached and be regenerated. John the Baptist was. 

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Phillip,
With all due respect; are you reading the thread? I have used John as an example already about 3 times. I know Johns condition while in the womb. I defined that in an earlier post. Is it possible that you are combining the two components of the ordo?

I am not speaking of the imbecile or the infant whom dies in the womb or at birth. I am speaking of the person whom will live a full life; whom will have the capability to receive, accept, repent. I agree, God works in the life of the imbecile and infant ina a way none of us can define. However, orthodoxically, the scriptures are clear. One must hear the gospel and respond in like manner. An infant cannot do this. An infant cannot manufacture the information put before him or her. Does not Gods word state, decide this day whom you will serve? An infant cannot distinguish this information from a bottle of milk.

Regenerate yes, but not converted. Conversion takes preaching. Preaching presents conditions. Conditions must be manufactured. How can an infant repent? Receive, accept?

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Paul,
John was regenerate in the womb, correct? Does the bible substantiate this claim? Is regeneration and conversion one in the same? Does John 3:3 show that regeneration does not require the preached word? Can a man be converted outside of the preaching and hearing of the word?

Nice picture. My cigars bigger than you pipe!!!

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

OK. So, are you following my reasoning here?


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## VanVos (Dec 6, 2004)

Scott said:



> Conversion only comes about under the preaching of Gods word. I hope you didn't think I was infering that men can be saved apart from the preaching of Gods word.?



Hi Scott
I know you weren't infering that men can be saved without the preached Word. Conversion is the result of regeneration, which normally occurs through the preached Word 1 Pet 1:23, although the can be exceptions i.e. John the Baptist. Conversion happens when an individual repents and believes Acts 3:19. Conversion is used in scripture to describe a self aware person who repents and believes the gospel. 

Jonathan

[Edited on 6-12-2004 by VanVos]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 6, 2004)

If you don't own "Regeneration" by Peter Van Mastricht please go and buy it. It would clear threads like this up in the time it would take to read the work. Edwards thought it was the greatest book written besides the bible. I persoanlly loved it - it is one of my favorites. $13.25 from at CVBBS.com 


Link:

http://tinyurl.com/4ubcl

{Edited link - make TinyUrls if link is that long}

[Edited on 12/7/2004 by fredtgreco]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by VanVos_
> Scott said:
> 
> 
> ...





> conversion is the result of regeneration, which normally occurs through the preached word



I agree. However, men do not need the preached word to become regenerate. John is the proof. Conversion cannot be accomplisahed outside of Gods message.


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## VanVos (Dec 6, 2004)

I agree John the Baptist is one of those exceptions.

Jonathan


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Johnnnnn,
Cmon. Put up a fight! I know you have more than that hiding. I know you believe that John is not the norm. What do you base this presumption upon? How do we know that John is not the norm?


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

You cannot be saved at all in any sense without the working of the Spirit through the Word of God. That is why I keep posting Psalm 19:7. It says that the Word of God is what regenerates us. There is no regeneration (or conversion) without the Word of God.

I am saying that since the Bible tells us that John was regenerate in the womb then we have to understand that the Spirit of God used the Word of God to accomplish this. That is all I am saying.

As to how He did it I don't know. In the Scriptures we have people preaching, angels preaching, etc. How was the Word of God preached to John in the womb? I don't know that. The Bible does not say. But the Bible does say that the Word must be necessarily present if one is to be regenerated.

God works with by means and the means He has given for salvation is His Word - Ps 19:7; Rom 1:16; Is 55:10, etc. So whether we understand HOW He does it or not, the Word must be present for one to be regenerate.

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Phillip,
I believe you are confusing regeneration and conversion. Where does preaching come into play in John 3:3?

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

What does Psalm 19:7 have to do with regeneration anyway?


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> What does Psalm 19:7 have to do with regeneration anyway?



and people are asking ME if I have been reading the thread??



> _posted by pastorway earlier in this discussion_
> 
> *Psalm 19:7*
> 
> ...



The Law of the Lord, the gospel, the Word of God - all these terms refer to the same thing. The revealed Word of God from the Apostels and Prophets, recorded for us in the Holy Bible.

We cannot be regenerated apart from the Word. God has designed it that way. (Ps 19:7; Rom 1:16; Is 55:10, etc)

Phillip

[Edited on 12-6-04 by pastorway]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Phillip, this is the current benefit that the servant of the Lord is receiving.
Are these not Hebrew parallelisms?

The Law of Jehovah is perfect = reviving the soul. 
The Testimony of Jehovah is sure = making the simple wise. 

The precepts of Jehovah are right = rejoicing the heart. 
The commands of Jehovah are pure = giving light to the eyes. 

The fear of Jehovah is clean = enduring forever. 
The judgments of Jehovah are true = they are righteous altogether. 

*They are methods of growth.*

Then the servants turns to being excited about what teh Word does for him:

Psa 19:10 They are more precious than gold, even much fine gold, and sweeter than honey and drops from the honeycomb. 
Psa 19:11 Also Your servant is warned by them; in keeping of them is great reward. 

He is revived by the Word.

Where does this speak of regeneration?


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

I have shown that Ps 19:7 explains that it is the perfect Word of God used by the Holy Spirit that regenerates us. The word usage and context is clear.

Where does the Bible say we can be saved (in any sense - regeneration, conversion, justofocation, etc) WITHOUT the Word of God?

It is the Word that regenerates (Ps 19:7), it is the Word that is the very power of God _to salvation_ (Rom 1:16), it is the Word that always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent forth, without fail (Is 55:10).

What Scripture can we point to and say, "See, the Word is not always necessary for salvation" ??

Phillip


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## fredtgreco (Dec 6, 2004)

Owen's salient comments on Regeneration:



> Secondly, *Regeneration by the Holy Spirit *is the same work, for the kind of it, and wrought by the same power of the Spirit in all that are regenerate, or ever were, or shall be so, from the beginning of the world unto the end thereof.
> 
> *Great variety there is in the application of the outward means* which the Holy Spirit is pleased to use and make effectual towards the accomplishment of this great work nor can the ways and manner hereof be reduced unto any certain order, for the Spirit worketh how and when he pleaseth, following the sole rule of his own will and wisdom.
> 
> *Mostly, God makes use of the preaching of the word; *thence called "œthe ingrafted word, which is able to save our souls," James 1:21; and the "œincorruptible seed," by which we are "œborn again," 1 Peter 1:23. *Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy*. Sometimes men are called, and so regenerate, in an extraordinary manner; as was Paul. But mostly they are so in and by the use of ordinary means, instituted, blessed, and sanctified of God to that end and purpose.



From Vol 3. Pneumatologia


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

That is a good post Fred. I was hoping you would jump into this one.

I agree for the most part with Owen but I have one question in thinking this through - when Owen writes, "Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy" how can we know that the inability of a person to use reason precludes the use of the Word by the Spirit to regenerate them?

Regeneration is not dependent upon human reason but upon the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we do not understand how God might accomplish this but I do not see how we can say that because we don't understand it then God cannot use the Word to regenerate those without "reason."

The Word is the usual means - and He can use it how He pleases, even regenerating a babe in the womb.

Is this not true?

Phillip


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## fredtgreco (Dec 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> That is a good post Fred. I was hoping you would jump into this one.
> 
> I agree for the most part with Owen but I have one question in thinking this through - when Owen writes, "Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy" how can we know that the inability of a person to use reason precludes the use of the Word by the Spirit to regenerate them?
> ...



Phillip,

I think what we can say (and what Owen does say) is that regeneration is not the work of the Word, but the Spirit. The Spirit ordinarily works with the Word, but is at liberty to work without it. The Word is an instrument , indeed THE instrument in the Spirit's hands. So I don't think we need to restrict the Spirit to the Word and try and figure out a way for the Word to get at an infant; at the same time, we ought not to deny that it is by means of the Word that the Spirit regenerates.

I'm surprised nobody has quoted 1 Peter 1:23:



> having been born again (avnagegennomoi), not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever



which much more clearly than Ps. 19 shows the relationship between regeneration and the Word. Peter is clearly referring to regeneration and not conversion.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 6, 2004)

What Fred said is correct. No one is disputing that the Word is often used in the process of *conversion*. It is also used in regeneration. Yes we see 1 Peter says that. 

Peter mentions spiritual rebirth twice in his letter. Verse 3 and verse 23. But having eternal life and DEMONSTRATING eternal life by faith are two different things. This is Peter's line of thought. Why should we love one another (i.e. Peter's argument here) because WE HAVE BEEN regenerated, or born again. It is something that occurred in the past (see the tense here) and continues into the future through our outward love. 

Peter links the "imperishable" word to regeneration HERE. Just here. The Greek word is used once HERE. As Fred made a point in his post, the Spirit is able not to use the Word and still regenerate people. Otherwise we would have problems thinking about how imbeciles and infants who are elect and die without cognitively having exercised faith would be saved. That is why the confession does not place "elect infants" int he 3rd chapter of the confession (in Predestination) but in the chapter on Effectual Calling!

When Peter is speaking to those who should be "of Christian action" (i.e. grown up believers who believe) he tells them the Word of God regenerated them, and they should live like it.

In regeneration, though, man is passive. He doesn't hear, he doesn't even get it (John 3:3). The Greek there on John 3 is very plain - he cannot spiritually understand UNTIL regenerated. Now here does the Spirit takes the Word and does........what with it?? What exactly does He do with it on people who do not get it? How does that work out? Is it around the preaching of the Word, or it is the imperishable seed that gives life in the Word (i.e. the Logos)? 

To take one inst acne and overlay the idea without getting into an explanation of EXACTLY what you mean when you say it is going to be dubious at best.

Yes, we all agree that God uses the Word of God to regenerate. Let's ask this question to be more specific (because saying that is WAY to general) - what does that mean that he uses the Word to change us? What happens? What does the Spirit do? How does the Word, without having someone understand the Word (something IMPOSSIBLE before regeneration as a thing true AND good) affect the heart? 

You are putting the cart before the horse. We need to understand by those who say the Spirit ALWAYS works by the word to REGENERATE (not convert) how that takes place and what the Spirit does to unregenerate men with the Word (which they cannot perceive) until they ARE REGENERATE. How does that happen? 

Clarify anyone....?




> how can we know that the inability of a person to use reason precludes the use of the Word by the Spirit to regenerate them



How can one understnad the propoisitons of the Bible without understanding the propositions of the bible?

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by webmaster]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 6, 2004)

Hence, John was regenerate (outside of the word) by the spirit. His conversion came later while sitting under Gods word.


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

> In regeneration, though, man is passive. He doesn't hear, he doesn't even get it (John 3:3). The Greek there on John 3 is very plain - he cannot spiritually understand UNTIL regenerated.



Here is my question then - if man has no part in this (regeneration) - no hearing, no understanding, "he doesn't even get it" - 

then how is he different than an unborn baby?

If the Spirit uses the Word to regenerate men (who have no part in it and don't hear or understand or get it), then what difference does it make if that man is born yet or not?

The Scriptures plainly show that the Spirit regenerates with the Word. Can we then say that this is ALWAYS how He does it? I think we can answer yes! Because the "reasonability" of the man being regenerated makes no difference. It is the power of the Spirit to call a man to life from death just as Jesus called out "Lazarus come forth." Lazarus was dead. Then he walked out of the grave alive. 

The burden of proof then would be on those who say that the Holy Spirit regenerates without the Word in certain circumstances. 

Phillip


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## fredtgreco (Dec 6, 2004)

Again, I'm going to stick with Owen.

It is a classic fallacy to say that monergism means that a person is like a board. Repentance is monergistic, so is faith. So is justification and sanctification. It just means that the arena for the Spirit's actions is man.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> I still haven't heard what you mean by being "regenrated by the word."
> 
> What is this? What is the word? What is this process?



Waiting - me too!


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## pastorway (Dec 6, 2004)

Guys - we are really close here on what we are all saying.

The Holy Spirit performs the work of regeneration by the power of the Word of God preached/heard in the life of the elect. 

What I am asking, is it going too far to say that an infant in the womb is regenerated in the very same way as a person who has already been born? If it is different between the two then what makes the difference?

It is my contention that Owen limits the work of the Spirit to the lives of those who _understand_, however, webmaster and others have already argued rightly that the work of regeneration does not depend on the "sate of mind" or reasonability of the recipient because one cannot understand the Word until he has already been regenerated.

In summary - the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, in His own time, before or after birth, by the use of the means of the Word of God. That is what I am saying. 

If you believe differently, then why does the Spirit use the Word for those of us already born but not use the Word with those not yet born - and can you show with Scripture why birth is the separating point in the way the Spirit uses the means? Can you prove that the Spirit does not use the Word of God to regenerate the unborn?

Phillip


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## VanVos (Dec 6, 2004)

> Regeneration - with or without the Word
> Johnnnnn,
> Cmon. Put up a fight! I know you have more than that hiding. I know you believe that John is not the norm. What do you base this presumption upon? How do we know that John is not the norm?



Scott has thrown down the gauntlet and Jonathan is going to pick it up.

The reason why I believe John is the expection and not the norm is because scripture lets us know that the oridinary means in which a person is regenerate and then converted is by the preaching of the Gospel. 1 Pet 1:23 1 James 1:18. God gives us no reason in scripture to expect regeneration to take place through or by any other means other than the preaching of the Gospel i.e. sacrements, sorry Lutherians. But that does not mean God can't, He did at least with John the Baptist, and believe He does with elect persons who die in infancy. Also it should be noted that John the Baptist served an important role in redemptive history. His birth and his early regeneration is meant to be a sign and a wonder Luke 1:63-66 (don't know of any other baby that has leaped for joy in his or her mother's womb). Sign and Wonders are not normative but are the exception Heb 2:3-4. 

Jonathan


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> 
> It is my contention that Owen limits the work of the Spirit to the lives of those who _understand_, however, webmaster and others have already argued rightly that the work of regeneration does not depend on the "sate of mind" or reasonability of the recipient because one cannot understand the Word until he has already been regenerated.
> 
> ...



Phillip,

You misunderstand Owen. Re-read my quote, especially this pertinent point:



> Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy



Owen does not limit the work of the Spirit to those that understand -- he limits the work of the Spirit by means of the Word to those who understand. That is because the Word works not in a mystical immediate sense, but in a mediate sense.

Why would we limit the Holy Spirit without scriptural warrant, and then have to come up with some kind of irrational theory about how infants who are in the womb hearing and understanding the Word. Predominant use of the Word, yes. All but exceptional cases, yes.

Scott appears to want to make a general case from John the Baptist that regeneration is apart from the Word; you appear to want to ignore him. The answer is neither, but what the Reformers and Puritans always held to, and what I expressed by Owen.


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## AdamM (Dec 7, 2004)

> The answer is neither, but what the Reformers and Puritans always held to, and what I expressed by Owen.



As expressed well in WCF 10-3, where regeneration is folded into the section on effectual call by the divines: 

" Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons * are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. *"

The confession is quite clear in affirming that for some very special cases, individuals are regenerated, saved by Chirst apart from the ordinary means, which is the ministry of the Word.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Jonathan,
What about Jeremiah (sanctified at birth) 

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 

and Sampson (Nazarite from the womb)?

Jdg 13:1 And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years. 
Jdg 13:2 And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not. 
Jdg 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. 
Jdg 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: 
Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. 
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: 
Jdg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death. 
Jdg 13:8 Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born. 
Jdg 13:9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. 
Jdg 13:10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. 
Jdg 13:11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am. 
Jdg 13:12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him? 
Jdg 13:13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware. 
Jdg 13:14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe. 
Jdg 13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 
Jdg 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 
Jdg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 
Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? 
Jdg 13:19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 
Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 
Jdg 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 
Jdg 13:23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these. 
Jdg 13:24 And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. 
Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol. 

And yet David:

Psalm 22:9-10--
Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you I was cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

You say that it is not the norm (All infants leap in their mothers womb), but it looks as if God has used the same means throughout the scriptures. We have 3 OT examples and one New. It cannot be said that it was a singular event based upon the premise of signs and wonders. 

Infants have always played a part as members of the covenant. God see's the infant in a different light than us. In fact, in the battle w/ the Amalakites, God orders their destruction........


1Sa 15:3 
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 



Psa 8:2 
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 


Mat 11:25 
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 

They cry out Hossana:

Matthew 21:15-16--
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple;Hosanna to the Son of David!; they were indignant, and they said to him,Do you hear what these are saying?And Jesus said to them,Yes; have you never read, "'Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'


[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## blhowes (Dec 7, 2004)

First, Fred, nice family picture.

Interesting thread. Its really helpful to focus in on the meaning of some common terms that we as Christians use. I've often heard in the past that many of these terms are synonyms that can be pretty much used interchangeably. Its interesting to look at the subtle differences in meaning.

In thinking about the discussion, I'm wondering if the Spirit uses the word to regenerate us so that we can then be converted, or if regeneration is the key that the Spirit uses to allow us to hear the word so we can then be converted? In other words, does the Spirit use the word to regenerate us or does the Spirit regenerate us so we can hear the word?


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

'the Spirit regenerate us so we can hear the word? '

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

Bob,

Thanks. It is important to remember that the very term "regeneration" is used differently by various theologians. For Calvin, it is closer to "salvation" or "conversion." Owen uses it more in the classical sense - like John Murray in his famous work Redemption Accomplished and Applied

Let me make another important point:

1. Regeneration is a "new creation"
2. How did God accomplish the first creation? By His Word (Gen. 1)
3. So how does God accomplish the new creation? In analogous form to the old creation - by His Word - ordinarily.

There is nothing odd about thinking about the Word being what the Spirit uses to transfer sinners from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh. The Word has power in itself, it is not dependent on the person's understanding or work. But to receive and rest upon Christ, God has laid down a _condition_ of faith. Not that faith is an absolute necessity, but an absolute consequent necessity. For that reason, the hearing of the Word must be "mixed with faith."


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 'the Spirit regenerate us so we can hear the word? '
> 
> Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.



I'm not sure what this means. The verse does not militate at all against the Spirit (from above) using the Word to regenerate. If you are saying it does, that is eisegesis.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

Scott,

Would it be correct to say that regeneration enlightens the mind, renews the will, and makes men able to hear the call of God?


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## wsw201 (Dec 7, 2004)

One issue that may be hanging us all up is the difference between Regeneration and the Effectual Calling.

This is from Chapter 10 of the WCF:



> Of Effectual Calling
> 
> I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
> 
> ...



The Effectual Calling by the Holy Spirit via the Word is the ordinary means of regeneration. Though God in His Providence is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure, I think that regeneration outside of the ordinary means of grace should always be considered extra-ordinary otherwise we can fall into all kinds of errors.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Scott,
> 
> Would it be correct to say that regeneration enlightens the mind, renews the will, and makes men able to hear the call of God?



Yes.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Thank you. The Holy Spirit does this by means of His Word:



> WLC 67: What is effectual calling?
> A67: Effectual calling is the work of God's almighty power and grace, whereby (out of his free and special love to his elect, and *from nothing in them moving him thereunto*) he doth, in his accepted time, invite and draw them to Jesus Christ, *by his word and Spirit*; savingly enlightening their minds, renewing and powerfully determining their wills, so as they (although in themselves dead in sin) are hereby made willing and able freely to answer his call, and to accept and embrace the grace offered and conveyed therein.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

The question is, is regeneration a precept to the effectual call. Can Lazarus hear if he is dead? This is where I have used John 3:3.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> The question is, is regeneration a precept to the effectual call. Can Lazarus hear if he is dead? This is where I have used John 3:3.



Regeneration is the effectual call. That is what makes the effectual call/regeneration so spectacular. God speaks to dry bones and they live. Can they hear? they have NO ability in themselves, but the Word of God still has its effect. Christ speaks to Lazarus "come forth" and he does. There is no "secret preparatory work" by which Lazarus wakes up and then hears the call of Christ; the call of Christ is itself life-giving.

This is the standard reformed (and even generic Calvinistic) view.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

Some quotes regarding regeneration from the Puritans:


Regeneration is a universal change of the whole man. . . . it is as large in renewing as sin was in defacing. STEPHEN CHARNOCK

The creation of the world is a shadow of the regeneration of a Christian. First, there was an earth without form, void, and a darkness upon the face of the deep. Predestination is this great deep, which cannot be discovered or discerned. There the light was separated from the darkness; here knowledge is separated from ignorance of the soul; there is calling. Then was the sun created; so here the bright beams of grace are diffused into our hearts which fill us with spiritual joy; there is sanctification. Lastly, Adam was created after the image of God, and placed in Paradise; so the new man is confirmed to the image of Christ, and shall be reposed in the paradise of everlasting glory. THOMAS ADAMS

In the first creation, God made man after His own image. So in the second creation or regeneration, God does create men after His own image, in knowledge, righteousness, true holiness, and love. VAVASOR POWELL

Regeneration is not a removal of the old substance or faculties of the soul. Some thought that the substance of Adam´s soul was corrupted when he sinned, therefore suppose the substance of his soul to be altered when he is renewed. Sin took not the substance, but the rectitude; the new creation therefore gives not a new faculty but a new quality. The cure of the leprosy is not a destroying of the fabric of the body, but the disease; yet in regard of the greatness of man´s corruption, the soul is so much changed by these new habits, that it is as it were a new soul, a new understanding, a new will. STEPHEN CHARNOCK


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## wsw201 (Dec 7, 2004)

But I believe (and I may be confused on this one!) there is a distinction between the Effectual Calling and Regeneration. Its a picky distinction but the effectual calling by the Holy Spirit via the word (Gospel) is what "tickles the ear" which leads to regeneration, then leading to the fruits of faith and repentance. Note that the Standards do not make this distinction between the Effectual Calling and Regeneration, as Fred has noted above. The Divines considered them the same thing. But if I remember correctly, later theologians did make this distinction.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm gonna be Paul Manata for a moment:
The distinction needs to be made in regards to what is meant by "by his word and Spirit".


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 7, 2004)

To capitalize on Wayne's idea:

Shorter Catechism:

Q31: What is effectual calling? 
A31: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit,[1] whereby convincing us of our sin and misery,[2] enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ,[3] and renewing our wills,[4] he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.[5] 

1. II Tim. 1:9
2. Acts 2:37
3. Acts 26:18
4. Ezek. 36:26
5. John 6:44

Q32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life? 
A32: They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification,[1] adoption,[2] and sanctification, and the several benefits which, in this life, do either accompany or flow from them.[3] 

1. Rom. 8:30
2. Eph. 1:5
3. I Cor. 1:30


Larger Catechism:

Q66: What is that union which the elect have with Christ?
A66: The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God's grace,[1] whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband;[2] which is done in their effectual calling.[3] 

1. Eph. 1:22; 2:6-8
2. I Cor. 6:17; John 10:28; Eph. 5:23, 30
3. I Peter 5:10; I Cor. 1:9

Q67: What is effectual calling?
A67: Effectual calling is the work of God's almighty power and grace,[1] whereby (out of his free and special love to his elect, and from nothing in them moving him thereunto [2]) he doth, in his accepted time, invite and draw them to Jesus Christ, by his word and Spirit;[3] savingly enlightening their minds,[4] renewing and powerfully determining their wills,[5] so as they (although in themselves dead in sin) are hereby made willing and able freely to answer his call, and to accept and embrace the grace offered and conveyed therein.[6]

1. John 5:25; Eph. 1:18-20; II Tim. 1:8-9
2. Titus. 3:4-5; Eph. 2:4-5, 7-9; Rom. 9:11
3. II Cor. 5:20; 6:1-2; John 6:44; II Thess. 2:13-14
4. Acts 26:18; I Cor. 2:10, 12
5. Ezek. 11:19; 36:26-27; John 6:45
6. Eph. 2:5; Phil. 2:13; Deut. 30:6

Q68: Are the elect only effectually called?
A68: All the elect, and they only, are effectually called;[1] although others may be, and often are, outwardly called by the ministry of the word,[2] and have some common operations of the Spirit;[3] who, for their wilful neglect and contempt of the grace offered to them, being justly left in their unbelief, do never truly come to Jesus Christ.[4]

1. Acts 13:48
2. Matt. 22:14
3. Matt. 7:22; 13:20-21; Heb. 6:4-6
4. John 6:64-65; 12:38-30; Acts 18:25-27; Psa. 81:11-12

No questions on "Regeneration."

Chapter 10 - Effectual Calling

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are *regenerated*, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12

Interesting intertwining of words and ideas....


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

I think we may be saying the same thing. It is the Spirit Who regenerates, and that is usually done through the Word (as an instrument, not as an agent itself), but the Spirit is free to work apart from the Word in certain circumstances, such as set forth by the divines in WCF 10.3.

So the distinction to be made "by His word and Spirit" is the same as described with respect to Christ's prophetic office, where the exact same language is used:



> WSC 24: How doth Christ execute the office of a prophet?
> Christ executeth the office of a prophet, in revealing to us, by his word and Spirit, the will of God for our salvation.



It is the Spirit who does the work (although let us not ever forget the doctrine of _Opera Trinitatis ad extra sunt indivisa_), and He ordinarily does that by means of His Word.


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## wsw201 (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> I'm gonna be Paul Manata for a moment:
> The distinction needs to be made in regards to what is meant by "by his word and Spirit".



Scott,

I think the answer may be in Chapter 5 of the Standards on Providence in Section 2 and 3:



> II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
> 
> III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.



Through "ordinary" Providence, God works through means, but is free to work without, above and against them at His pleasure. Therefore, the "ordinary" means of salvation will be through the means of Word and Spirit. but God the Holy Spirit can work without the word at His pleasure. This would explain the extra-ordinary circumstances surrounding infants and imbiciles. But the Spirit working without the Word is extra-ordinary.

Note in Chapter 14 on Saving Faith Sect 1:




> I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[1] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[2] *and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word,*[3] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[4]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> 
> Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."



Again, I have no idea what you are trying to show here. Has anyone implied that the work of regeneration is not the work of the Spirit? If you have gotten the impression (I don't know how) should I post my 15 page summary of Owen on this?


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Fred,
This is why I wanted a distinction made in regards to how the spirit reveals Gods word........If the distinction was made, I haven't gotten it.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

Calvin on John 3:3


> 3. Verily, verily, I say to thee. The word Verily (avmh,n) is twice repeated, and this is done for the purpose of arousing him to more earnest attention. For when he was about to speak of the most important and weighty of all subjects, he found it necessary to awaken the attention of Nicodemus, who might otherwise have passed by this whole discourse in a light or careless manner. 4 Such, then, is the design of the double affirmation.
> 
> Though this discourse appears to be far-fetched and almost inappropriate, yet it was with the utmost propriety that Christ opened his discourse in this manner. For as it is useless to sow seed in a field which has not been prepared by the labors of the husbandman, so it is to no purpose to scatter the doctrine of the Gospel, if the mind has not been previously subdued and duly prepared for docility and obedience. Christ saw that the mind of Nicodemus was filled with many thorns, choked by many noxious herbs, so that there was scarcely any room for spiritual doctrine. This exhortation, therefore, resembled a ploughing to purify him, that nothing might prevent him from profiting by the doctrine. Let us, therefore, remember that this was spoken to one individual, in such a manner that the Son of God addresses all of us daily in the same language. For which of us will say that he is so free from sinful affections that he does not need such a purification? If, therefore, we wish to make good and useful progress in the school of Christ, let us learn to begin at this point.
> 
> ...


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Fred,
> This is why I wanted a distinction made in regards to how the spirit reveals Gods word........If the distinction was made, I haven't gotten it.



The Spirit does not reveal God's Word - the Spirit uses God's Word to reveal something, namely the truth of God (which includes our knowledge of our own sin and need for a savior), and His will for our salvation.

The Word is not a "thing" to be revealed. It is an instrument, an expression (indeed THE paramount expression) of the will of God brought to man.

So the Confession:

Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, *to reveal Himself*, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, *to commit the same* wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy *Scripture *to be most necessary; those former ways of God´s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased (WCF 1.1)

[Edited on 12/7/2004 by fredtgreco]


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## pastorway (Dec 7, 2004)

My point all along is to say that if the Spirit regenerates WITHOUT the Word then that is by far an extreme exception to the normal way in which He works to regenerate the elect. It is so extraordinary that it has made me wonder if the Spirit uses the Word to regenerate even the infant in the womb. The Spirit is able to regenerate with the Word even an infant in the womb.....but is this how He does it? That is all I am saying/asking.

And my real argument with Scott is that if I am reading him correctly he seems to be arguing that the Spirit does not usually use the Word to regenerate - but just regenerates without any _instrument_ at all (ie. the Word).

Fred and Wayne, your posts have been most helpful to me in thinking this through.

Phillip

[Edited on 12-7-04 by pastorway]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Phillip,
I am saying that. Regeneration is the initial stage in the ordo. It happens via the spirit. Scripture supports this. John 3 and 8 are clear. Regeneration must occur prior to the recipient being able to _see_ the kingdom and to understand spiritual things. The word is preached and conversion occurs. From a human perspective, this miracle may seem simultaneous, however, Gods word shows that thier are segments.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## pastorway (Dec 7, 2004)

If that is what youy are saying then you are wrong about regeneration. The Spirit uses the Word to regenerate just as Jesus used His words to call out "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did. He did not have to be alive then hear then come out. He was dead, came to life when Jesus called, and came out.

You are correct that it is the preaching of the Word that brings about conversion, but you are wrong to exclude the Word from the work of regeneration. The verses that I have shown (and Fred and Wayne too) show clearly that the Spirit uses the instrument of the Word to bring us to life.

Phillip

[Edited on 12-7-04 by pastorway]


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Phillip,
So let me ask you. Does God use the word in every occasion to regenerate individuals?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Phillip,
> So let me ask you. Does God use the word in every occasion to regenerate individuals?



Does God use the word in every occasion to convert individuals?


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Yes.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

OK. I give.

Break-through!

John the baptist, David, and Jeremiah were all regenerated in the womb by the word of Gods spirit.

Joh 3:8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.

Let me say this. I believe the wall in the way was seeing the word as the word preached; as in an audible substance. Spiritually, the word is not audible per se, but is more effectual.

Ok; we clear? 

But this raises a new question then, could one be converted in the same manner; by the spirit, without the audible, preached word?



[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> OK. I give.
> 
> Break-through!
> ...



Scott,

If you are serious, and I think you are, then we have indeed made a breakthrough. Not a somebody wins breakthrough, but a "we were really on the same page breakthrough." Because your answer to my question about whether God use sthe word in every occasion to convert individuals ("yes") had me concerned until your post here, and now I agree completely. The Word is not a substance - it is the revelation of God to man. It is written (the Bible) and flesh (Christ). 

So I think the answer to your question is also yes. I think WLC 154 and 155 are instructive here:



> WLC 154: What are the Outward Means Whereby Christ Communicates to Us the Benefits of His Mediation?
> Answer: The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation
> 
> WLC 155: How is the Word Made Effectual to Salvation?
> Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Fred,
Understand what I am asking; If God goes to the unborn elect infant whom dies, or the imbecile, and regenerates them without the literal audible substance, He must also convert them in like manner. Now the question: If this is the case, who is to say God does not do the same with the native in the Amazon jungle? Granted, I understand that the norm is by Gods preached word, but based upon these ideas, how can one rule out this idea?


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Fred,
> Understand what I am asking; If God goes to the unborn elect infant whom dies, or the imbecile, and regenerates them without the literal audible substance, He must also convert them in like manner. Now the question: If this is the case, who is to say God does not do the same with the native in the Amazon jungle? Granted, I understand that the norm is by Gods preached word, but based upon these ideas, how can one rule out this idea?



In Romans 10:12-15 (ESV), Paul says, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'" 

Now, what you and Fred just agreed on is that, in exceptional cases, God saves apart from the ordinary means of the tangible Word. Notice that when the Confession speaks of that possibility, it speaks with reference to elect infants and "all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word" (X.III) - in other words, those incapable of being saved by preaching, hearing, believing, and calling as spoken of in Romans 10. Thus, God saves apart from His ordinary means those elect people who are _incapable_ of being saved by those means, and I would understand that as speaking of people such as infants and the mentally retarded.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

Chris,
What of the native in the Amazon?


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 7, 2004)

Is he or she _capable_ of being called by the ordinary means as outlined in Romans 10?


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 7, 2004)

No. But you see, this is opening a can of worms. We are now saying that men can be saved apart from the gospel message.


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 7, 2004)

That is precisely what the Confession is denying by using the term "incapable" - for it is only those who are _incapable_ of being saved by the preached Gospel that God saves otherwise, which would not include an adult in the Amazon, since they would be perfectly capable of such if presented with it. I asked about this part of the Confession with regard to Inclusivism awhile back, and that thread may be helpful to this discussion.


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> No. But you see, this is opening a can of worms. We are now saying that men can be saved apart from the gospel message.



I think the confusion on this point rests on the definition of "capable," as I would say "yes." The thread I referenced above speaks on that.


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## fredtgreco (Dec 7, 2004)

Scott,

I think we can avoid the can of worms.

1. Regeneration is distinct from justification in that there is no condition to regeneration. There IS a condition to justification, namely faith in Christ. The fact that God fulfills that condition for us (by giving faith, Eph 2:8) is immaterial to the fact that a condition exists.

2. For this reason, the heathen in the Amazon (to use your example) is unable to fulfill the condition. It is possible for the Spirit to so fulfill the condition, but we have no evidence for it.

3. Again the Confession makes a helpful distinction between natural capability and spiritual capability. We can agree that all men are spiritually incapable apart from the work of the Spirit. But if we agree with the divines and Puritans that the main arena of operation of the Spirit in man in the mind (see esp. Owen, Vol 3*), in which the mind informs the will and points the affections in the proper direction (this is crucial to understanding Puritan, and I believe Biblical, anthropology), then obviously this does not apply to those who have not the _physical _capability of the mind.

4. And so the Confession is equally clear that salvation cannot come without saving knowledge: _"Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable;a yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation"
_; and at the same time affirms that "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, *through the Spirit*,a who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are *incapable *of being outwardly called *by the ministry of the Word*." The clear emphasis is on an explicit kind of incapability.

Does that make sense?


* Owen explicitly states that the "gate of attack" as it were for the Spirit in regeneration is the mind: "The foundation of the whole is laid in our being 'renewed in the spirit of our mind;' which the same apostle elsewhere calls being 'transformed in the renovation of our minds,' Romans 12:2. That this consists in the participation of a new, saving, supernatural light, to enable the mind unto spiritual actings, and to guide it therein, shall be afterward declared. Herein consists our 'renovation in knowledge, after the image of him who created us,' Colossians 3:10"


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## pastorway (Dec 8, 2004)

Yeah! We agree!!!


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 8, 2004)

This calls for a banana dance...


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