# Amillennial and The Tribulation



## Bryan (Jun 3, 2004)

In the Amil system, where does the tribulation fit in? Are we living in it now, or will it be a distinct time before the reture of Christ?

Bryan
SDG


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 3, 2004)

Paul, were any books of help in convincing you of Postmillennialism? I have not yet done a study of eschatology, and probably will not for at least a little while still, but when I do, could you recommend any good books on the subjct? I already plan to read Keith Mathison's [i:ced4fb1590]Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope[/i:ced4fb1590] and Kim Riddlebarger's [i:ced4fb1590]A Case For Amillennialism[/i:ced4fb1590], and maybe some work by Ladd as well. Any other good sources you would recommend, specifically on the Postmil. position.

In Christ,

Chris


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 3, 2004)

Thanks...I'll have to write this stuff down for when I get around to doing my study of eschatology.

In Christ,

Chris


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## JWJ (Jun 3, 2004)

[quote:de33d0e726][i:de33d0e726]Originally posted by Bryan[/i:de33d0e726]
In the Amil system, where does the tribulation fit in? Are we living in it now, or will it be a distinct time before the reture of Christ?

Bryan
SDG [/quote:de33d0e726]

To be terse-- Already and Not Yet. 

Yes in one sense all Christians in all ages taste (some more than others) tribulation. Yes there will be a climatic tribulation (Satan's last stand to wipe out the seed) B4 Christ's return. And yes, to sweeten the pot and perhaps surprise some of my Amil comrades, there will be the rapture spoken of in Scripture. No not the dispensational pretrib rapture but rather the biblical pre-wrath rapture-- the rapture where God removes his people from the earth as he executes his wrath (trumpet plagues).


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## Preach (Jun 3, 2004)

Paul,In what way are you not personally fond of Dr. Sproul?


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 3, 2004)

[quote:a4607c4465][i:a4607c4465]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:a4607c4465]
Paul, were any books of help in convincing you of Postmillennialism? I have not yet done a study of eschatology, and probably will not for at least a little while still, but when I do, could you recommend any good books on the subjct? I already plan to read Keith Mathison's [i:a4607c4465]Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope[/i:a4607c4465] and Kim Riddlebarger's [i:a4607c4465]A Case For Amillennialism[/i:a4607c4465], and maybe some work by Ladd as well. Any other good sources you would recommend, specifically on the Postmil. position.

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:a4607c4465]

[i:a4607c4465]An Eschatology of Victory [/i:a4607c4465] by J. Marcellus Kik sealed it for me. Quote here -&gt; http://mywebpages.comcast.net/webpages54/ap/kik.html

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by tcalbrecht]


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## fredtgreco (Jun 3, 2004)

[quote:58daf01bf6][i:58daf01bf6]Originally posted by Preach[/i:58daf01bf6]
Paul,In what way are you not personally fond of Dr. Sproul? [/quote:58daf01bf6]


{putting on Horshack voice}
OOhh, ooh, ooohh, let me play! Especially since Paul answered for me on another thread.
{putting off Horshack voice}


Because Paul thinks his apologetic method is flawed and Sproul carries that into his other theology, like his fondness for Aquinas.


How did I do?


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## New wine skin (Jun 4, 2004)

Does John 21: 21-24 have any implication to support the Amil position implying John will remain alive til Jesus &quot;coming&quot; (implying second??) or is Jesus simply warning not to twist His words or to read in more than what is said ?


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## MurrayA (Mar 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Bryan_
> In the Amil system, where does the tribulation fit in? Are we living in it now, or will it be a distinct time before the reture of Christ?
> 
> Bryan
> SDG



Good question! Since the Dispensationalists are constantly prattling on about the Tribulation we need to have a position.

First, we must reject on exegetical grounds the dispensational claim to get it from Daniel 9:27, and the so-called postponed week. That done, the whole edifice of the Dispensational chart construction largely collapses. Furthermore, when you ask dispensationalist advocates just who suffers during this "Tribulation" (who gets "tribulated") they are really in all sorts of bother. It can't be saints, because ex hypothesi they have been raptured out before it begins. Nor can it be people saved during the Tribulation, because the Holy Spirit has also been withdrawn, so the "Tribulation saints" are properly an empty set. Yet "Left Behind" movies commonly portray Christians suffering during this tribulation. 
In short, the whole scheme is a mass of inherent contradictions, but you can't get them to see that.

Second, the other main passage is Matt.24:21-29. My own view is that the two events envisaged there, viz. the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Coming, are the two mountain peaks in the prophetic perspective, while the time in between is indefinite. The first event begins the Great Tribulation; the Second event brings it to a close with His triumphant appearance. Hence the multitudes of martyrs and confessors who have suffered throughout the Gospel era have endured the Tribulation. See here the vision of the redeemed saints in heaven, Rev.7:14. They have come out of great Tribulation - during the Gospel era.
This assessment is in line with history: prior to 70 A.D. persecution came only from Jews, as recorded in Acts. Afterwards, the Church was on its own, and came under the scrutiny of a hostile (Roman) state, while Jewish persecution ceased. Since then, persecution has been from one Gentile power after another, and from two main types of source: a corrupt ecclesiastical authority; or a hostile state. Modern Islamic persecution, being theocratic, combines the two.

This perspective should encourage those in many countries who suffer right now (particularly in Islamic countries): to tell them, I believe, that what you are suffering now is not the Tribulation, but the real one is down the track, is insulting to the extreme.

One caveat here: as Jesus describes the features of the Gospel age/tribulation era in Matt.24:4-8 He sees all the troubles as "the beginning of the birth pangs" (v.8), Now birth pangs are just that part of a woman's labour when contractions begin, but as labour progresses the contractions get both more frequent, and more intense. Hence I would agree that the current Tribulation will intensify on a world-wide scale as the end approaches, and then Divine intervention will suddenly rend the earth apart and Christ will appear.

That is my own view, for what it is worth. It is, I believe, consistent with an a-mill position. I invite others to comment.
BTW, I have read with much appreciation Riddlebarger's book on Amillennialism. I would not agree with absolutely everything, but certainly with most of it.


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## turmeric (Mar 24, 2006)

Dispensationalism seems to say; it ain't the Tribulation till the fat lady (USA) suffers!


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## JM (Jul 29, 2006)

> I've read _Riddlebarger's [i:ced4fb1590]A Case For Amillennialism[/i:ced4fb1590] _


_, it's less of an outline of Amil and more of a defence against dispensationalism._


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## Blueridge Believer (Sep 21, 2006)

Phillip Mauro wrote two excellent books from the a-mill perspective that I highly reccomend. "The hope of Israel" and "Daniels 70 weeks and the Mt. Olivet discourse". Both are written from the partial preterist position.


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## caddy (Sep 21, 2006)

What about L. Boettner? I thought his work on Post Mill was a "standard" ?

At least that is what I have read. I have read his work on Predestination, which I thought was masterful--given that it was written in 1932, but have not read anything else by him.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caddy_
> What about L. Boettner? I thought his work on Post Mill was a "standard" ?
> 
> At least that is what I have read. I have read his work on Predestination, which I thought was masterful--given that it was written in 1932, but have not read anything else by him.



Its okay. I wouldn't quote from him (I'm postmil). The eschatological debate has shifted since his time. He also lost his edge at the end of his life (that's why the book edited by, oh what's his name, anyway, the four eschatology positions, has been cited as a good argument against Boettner). 

Although I might get some people mad for mentioning him, Greg Bahnsen's lectures on eschatology are superb. Gentry's stuff has yet to be sufficiently answered. Mathison was basic, but he rebutted some serious amillennial charges.


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