# Calvin flirted with the idea of a reinstitution of the Bishops?



## Pergamum (Jun 21, 2008)

Have you ever heard that John Calvin wanted the reinstitution of Bishops?



A Reformed Episcopal friend of a friend who is also a minister wrote saying



“Calvin wanted to reinstitution of Bishops. Calvin wanted Bishops, but still believed that only Bishops can make Bishops. Eventually, though this movement lost and died in Geneva. Calvin recognized that since the beginning, the church was ruled by Bishops and the three fold ministry of Bishops, Priest (presbyters) and Deacons.”



Have you ever heard of this before?


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## AV1611 (Jun 21, 2008)

J. C. Ryle states that Calvin spoke highly of the Church of England and advocated episcopalianism for Poland.


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## Pergamum (Jun 21, 2008)

hmmmmmm.... any written proof of that?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 21, 2008)

I don't know about the claims. There has been misuse of Calvin by high episcopalians certainly. See Miller's Letters.
1807
Letters Concerning the Constitution ... - Google Book Search
1809
A Continuation of Letters Concerning ... - Google Book Search
Or the 1830 re-edited edition merging the two:
Letters Concerning the Constitution ... - Google Book Search


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 21, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> J. C. Ryle states that Calvin spoke highly of the Church of England and advocated episcopalianism for Poland.



I think I recall Alistair McGrath or perhaps Nick Needham saying the same thing.


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## AV1611 (Jun 21, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> hmmmmmm.... any written proof of that?



It was a letter Calvin wrote to the King of Poland and is mentioned by Schaff amongst others.

Further in his _Institutes_ (IV.v.11) he writes, "There still remain bishops and rectors of parishes; and I wish that they would contend for the maintenance of their office. I would willingly grant that they have a pious and excellent office if they would discharge it..."


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## AV1611 (Jun 21, 2008)

See here.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 21, 2008)

If you are a three-office man, then this looks/sounds like an abuse of classic Presbyterianism, which Calvin is most assuredly a forerunner of. In this case of employment to a bad end, the minister has been elevated to an executive-pastor, the elders have all been "priested" (or what really looks like--done away with), and left are the deacons, who have also been made into clergy.

Not all of us agree that "there is no distinction of office" between a minister (bishop? in someone's parlance?) and the ruler/elder. Calvin, Knox, etc. would have recognized the minister as a clergyman. In this quote: "There still remain bishops and rectors of parishes...," I see no distinguishing being made between these men in Calvin's thinking, other than that the former may have a larger parish.

At the end of the day, I think Calvin would be content to have a church be Reformed, and its order a tolerable approximation to biblical government, if that's the best that could be had.


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## Stephen (Jun 21, 2008)

I have never heard this claim. I would want it in writing from Calvin's own pen. One can certainly have great respect for Anglicanism and men like Packer or Ryle (I happen to love Ryle's writings), but that does not mean you advocate an episcopal government.


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## JM (Jun 21, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> See here.



Hope this helps:


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## Dieter Schneider (Jun 21, 2008)

This article may be of interest - "Preserving Church Unity: Calvin and the Believers at Wesel" by Dr. R. Faber. T. F. Torrance is illuminating and infuriating, but should not be ignored. It may also be worthwhile to study Calvin's relationship with the English Church; his letters yield light on this matter. Check my blog if you wish to explore further.


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## AV1611 (Jun 21, 2008)

Torrance makes some important points. As an aside, I would also point out _Elders in Every City_


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