# I need guidance



## Cifrado (Sep 22, 2010)

I wanted to consult the elders as it were, being myself less learned, and discerned.

As a Christian, what are the dangers one might face when undertaking certain studies on the occult, UFO's, demons, etc. Would it be wise to limit oneself on the information one reads? I find myself particularly interested in the relation between psychedelic drugs (DMT, ayahuasca, salvia divinorum) and "spiritual experience". I am ultimately curious to know of the role which demonic entities play in the core experience of entheogens, in times of both antiquity, and modern day usage.

Of coarse, this study is not intended for the purpose of engaging in any kind of occultist practice. But still, are there precautions one would be wise to take (like fasting, or prayer), or should I abstain from this subject altogether?


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## Herald (Sep 22, 2010)

Nate,

I would proceed cautiously. Curiosity has the potential to lead a Christian into unprofitable and dangerous situations. Unless you are in a course of study that is exploring these areas from an apologetics perspective I have to question the soundness of your interest. Exposing your mind to the occult is dangerous, even for the most mature of Christians. Have you spoken to your own elders? I suggest that you do instead of seeking counsel on the PB.


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## py3ak (Sep 22, 2010)

Nate, is there any _need_ for you to study these things? Do you have friends who are caught up in it, or something? If not, you may ask yourself whether there really is any providential call upon you to seek to know more.

I understand curiosity: it too must be restrained and mortified in pursuit of what we are called to do. But if you have a particular interest in mystical experience and the drug connection, I would suggest consulting the short and simple work by Aldous Huxley, _Heaven and Hell_. The root of Huxley's error is not hard to find; he thinks that you are faced with a choice between conceiving of God as the organizing principle of existence, or as something over against creation (personal). Psalm 104 will show you just how very deeply God is involved in creation: nothing happens without His concurrence, and Aquinas would even tell you that it is the divine intellect that in a way exercises hope for the irrational creatures; but in contradiction to Huxley, heaven and earth do not contain God, and we can stand to Him in personal relationship: "I" and "thou" in interaction. Since the book is short and clear, and since the error is fairly simple to spot, and since Huxley was almost certainly smarter than most of the other questers in that vein, I think you could save yourself from a _lot_ of bad writing, and put your book money toward much better things by simply buying or borrowing that one. If you need suggestions of what to buy with the money you'll save, here is my wish list.


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## rbcbob (Sep 22, 2010)

Herald said:


> Nate,
> 
> I would proceed cautiously. Curiosity has the potential to lead a Christian into unprofitable and dangerous situations. Unless you are in a course of study that is exploring these areas from an apologetics perspective I have to question the soundness of your interest. Exposing your mind to the occult is dangerous, even for the most mature of Christians. Have you spoken to your own elders? I suggest that you do instead of seeking counsel on the PB.


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## Cifrado (Sep 22, 2010)

py3ak said:


> Nate, is there any _need_ for you to study these things? Do you have friends who are caught up in it, or something? If not, you may ask yourself whether there really is any providential call upon you to seek to know more.
> 
> I understand curiosity: it too must be restrained and mortified in pursuit of what we are called to do. But if you have a particular interest in mystical experience and the drug connection, I would suggest consulting the short and simple work by Aldous Huxley, _Heaven and Hell_. The root of Huxley's error is not hard to find; he thinks that you are faced with a choice between conceiving of God as the organizing principle of existence, or as something over against creation (personal). Psalm 104 will show you just how very deeply God is involved in creation: nothing happens without His concurrence, and Aquinas would even tell you that it is the divine intellect that in a way exercises hope for the irrational creatures; but in contradiction to Huxley, heaven and earth do not contain God, and we can stand to Him in personal relationship: "I" and "thou" in interaction. Since the book is short and clear, and since the error is fairly simple to spot, and since Huxley was almost certainly smarter than most of the other questers in that vein, I think you could save yourself from a _lot_ of bad writing, and put your book money toward much better things by simply buying or borrowing that one. If you need suggestions of what to buy with the money you'll save, here is my wish list.


 
Yes, but I am more interested in the tryptamine phenomena which terence mckenna discusses in many of his lectures. Aldous Huxleys Heaven or Hell leaves a lot to be desired with his interpretation of the mescaline experience.*

At about minute one or two of a DMT trip, according to McKenna, one may burst through a chrysanthemum-like mandala, and find:



> "There's a whole bunch of entities waiting on the other side, saying "How wonderful that you're here! You come so rarely! We're so delighted to see you!"
> They're like jewelled self-dribbling basketballs and there are many of them and they come pounding toward you and they will stop in front of you and vibrate, but then they do a very disconcerting thing, which is they jump into your body and then they jump back out again and the whole thing is going on in a high-speed mode where you're being presented with thousands of details per second and you can't get a hold on [them ...] and these things are saying "Don't give in to astonishment", which is exactly what you want to do. You want to go nuts with how crazy this is, and they say "Don't do that. Pay attention to what we're doing".
> What they're doing is making objects with their voices, singing structures into existence. They offer things to you, saying "Look at this! Look at this!" and as your attention goes towards these objects you realise that what you're being shown is impossible. It's not simply intricate, beautiful and hard to manufacture, it's impossible to make these things. The nearest analogy would be the Fabergé eggs, but these things are like the toys that are scattered around the nursery inside a U.F.O., celestial toys, and the toys themselves appear to be somehow alive and can sing other objects into existence, so what's happening is this proliferation of elf gifts, which are moving around singing, and they are saying "Do what we are doing" and they are very insistent, and they say "Do it! Do it! Do it!" and you feel like a bubble inside your body beginning to move up toward your mouth, and when it comes out it isn't sound, it's vision. You discover that you can pump "stuff" out of your mouth by singing, and they're urging you to do this. They say "That's it! That's it! Keep doing it!".
> We're now at minute 4.5 [of the trip] and you speak in a kind of glossolalia. There is a spontaneous outpouring of syntax unaccompanied by what is normally called "meaning". After a minute or so of this the whole thing begins to collapse in on itself and they begin to physically move away from you. Usually their final shot is that they wave goodbye and say "Deja vu! Deja vu!"."



These reports are by no means exclusive to McKenna

I would say it is mostly out of curiosity, due to the interest I had in these psychedelic substances from about age fifteen, before I was saved from this horrid culture (I am now nineteen). I recall one instance of using salvia divinorum, and while in the altered state, I experienced the presense of a thatness, or a themness (and yet, whatever it was, it also seemed to take on the persona of a lady) which is common in Salvia trip reports. I have very little doubt in my mind that this "presence" which I, and others ordinarily feel is actually nothing other than a demonic entity, rather than mere trickery of the mind. Having said that, I do have intentions to use what I learn as a means to an apologetical end. Although I do not have any particular plan of action at the moment...

Are you saying that my approach is a bit over involved, and needs to be more confined so as to limit the danger of drifting? I understand your concerns, and *will not* proceed with this if you guys reckon it to be risky. However, I do have a good understanding of truth in regards to the gospel, and also a passion for Christ. Would you all say that it Is unwise for anyone, regardless, or is there a standard of "spiritual maturity" by which you would advocate this endeavor, so long as one were very careful. I can see how this knowledge might possibly lead me closer to Christ knowing so vividly the demonic reality that is so prevalent right under our noses. As for apologetics, I can also see it benefiting me and others, in say... A YouTube discussion, where UFO conspiracy theorists run wild!


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## Mushroom (Sep 23, 2010)

Nate, if you are only a mere 4 teenage years or less from hallucinogenic experimentation, my recommendation would be for you to give the subject a wide berth for a good while more, if not forever. It took me longer than that for the eyelid flicks to stop. The attributes of Christ are a far more interesting and edifying subject to study.


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## py3ak (Sep 23, 2010)

Given the fuller details, I would wholeheartedly agree with Brad.


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## Tim (Sep 23, 2010)

Also be careful of Coast to Coast AM.


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## Cifrado (Sep 23, 2010)

Thank you all very much for your advice. Ill take it


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