# EPC Presbytery of the East Moves to Officially Support Women's Ordination



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Got this from a friend of mine and thought it was an interesting change of policy for an EPC Presbytery. As of now there are two EPC Presbyteries that expressly forbid the Ordination of women to the Office of Teaching Elder. The others continue the local-option policy. This takes Women's Ordination from being an almost "Don't Ask Don't Tell" type of view to a full blown Congregational polity question. Here is the text from the Presbytery Motion that was passed:


> 1. The Presbytery of the East of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) will honor the Christian liberty of individual congregations to call their ministers and, therefore, will not prohibit candidates for ordination as Teaching Elders from being processed and presented to Presbytery due to their gender.
> 
> 2. All candidates will be processed as set forth in the Book of Order of the EPC, the EPC Procedural Manual for Ministerial and Candidates Committees, and the Presbytery of the East By-Laws.
> 
> 3. All candidates will be examined in accordance with the EPC’s specific criteria for ordination and ministerial preparation and must agree with the Essentials of Our Faith and subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith;
> 
> 4. Once presented on the floor of Presbytery, candidates will be questioned as set forth in the Book of Order of the EPC.
> 
> 5. Members of Presbytery will be allowed to vote their consciences in regards to their Biblical convictions concerning an individual’s ordination.
> 
> 6. All members will be treated during the entire process with charity, grace and the respect due to one who seeks to submit themselves to Scripture and the calling of the Holy Spirit.


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## Pilgrim

Benjamin,

Do you know what the other presbytery(s) is? 

I attended an EPC church for a while several years ago that was a member of the Central South Presbytery. That congregation prohibits women elders in its bylaws. My understanding is that there are only a handful of female TE's in the EPC and none who are serving in a pastoral role. I don't know how many women RE's there are. But with all of the New Wineskins churches coming in (all of which came out of the PCUSA and presumably at least have or had women RE's if not some TE's) it's natural to expect some some tension on this issue in the future. Apparently the women in ministry issue is what kept a number of otherwise conservative PCUSA ministers from joining the EPC earlier. A few years ago, around the time that New Wineskins started making the move toward the exit door, I came across a few PCUSA officers online that seemed fairly solid on at least some issues but who were adamant that women can serve. They said that the EPC allows it in theory but in practice has been generally hostile to it.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I am not sure of the exact 2 Presbyteries that hold that. I'll try and find out for you. From my understanding there are only 2 female TE's presently in the EPC, one is retired I believe. 

Classical Presbyterian would know more than me.


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## Classical Presbyterian

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I am not sure of the exact 2 Presbyteries that hold that. I'll try and find out for you. From my understanding there are only 2 female TE's presently in the EPC, one is retired I believe.
> 
> Classical Presbyterian would know more than me.



You compliment me, sir!  Unless you think that I'm a little _too_ involved in EPC analysis...

The other presbytery for WO is in California, I think.

This will be a future source of conflict in the EPC from two camps:
1. The side that stands by the theology of strict complementarianism.
2. The side that stands by the theology of strict egalitarianism.

The elders (RE and TE) who will allow freedom of conscience on this issue will be those who are content with this 'compromise'. If I were a prophet, I'd say that we are looking at a certain future split in the EPC when the exodus from the mainline is complete and the full number has been brought in. The complementarians will go PCA and the rest will make some sort of peace.

But we'll see! Not all complementarians are Reformed, so the PCA might not be a good home. It's complicated....


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## Pilgrim

Classical Presbyterian said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure of the exact 2 Presbyteries that hold that. I'll try and find out for you. From my understanding there are only 2 female TE's presently in the EPC, one is retired I believe.
> 
> Classical Presbyterian would know more than me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You compliment me, sir!  Unless you think that I'm a little _too_ involved in EPC analysis...
> 
> The other presbytery for WO is in California, I think.
> 
> This will be a future source of conflict in the EPC from two camps:
> 1. The side that stands by the theology of strict complementarianism.
> 2. The side that stands by the theology of strict egalitarianism.
> 
> The elders (RE and TE) who will allow freedom of conscience on this issue will be those who are content with this 'compromise'. If I were a prophet, I'd say that we are looking at a certain future split in the EPC when the exodus from the mainline is complete and the full number has been brought in. The complementarians will go PCA and the rest will make some sort of peace.
> 
> But we'll see! Not all complementarians are Reformed, so the PCA might not be a good home. It's complicated....
Click to expand...


The complementarian EPC pastor I mentioned earlier is a card carrying member of the charismatic movement and their church left the PCA for the EPC over 10 years ago, (although moreso over controversy with S. Wilkins than charismaticism, although the EPC of course has been a much better fit for them on that issue) so I don't know that that would be an option for them. He has been in the ministry for about 35 years, so maybe he hopes to be retired before the issue comes to a head!


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## Classical Presbyterian

Maybe the complementarian charismatics, if they desire to depart, would go Sovereign Grace? Or if they wanted to stay, they could petition for a non-geographic presbytery, citing the New Wineskins model.


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## Pilgrim

If I were a prophet, I'd say that a good number of Old School strict subscriptionists in the PCA will eventually go OPC, especially those who don't reject Roman Catholic baptism.

-----Added 2/11/2009 at 11:08:45 EST-----



Classical Presbyterian said:


> Maybe the complementarian charismatics, if they desire to depart, would go Sovereign Grace? Or if they wanted to stay, they could petition for a non-geographic presbytery, citing the New Wineskins model.



I could be mistaken, but I am not aware of any paedobaptist churches that are affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Those committed to Presbyterian church government may not be happy there either since that's not their polity.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I do see a major re-alignment in the next 5-15 years in the Presbyterian world as the PC(USA) collapses more quickly with churches looking for somewhere to go...


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## Classical Presbyterian

Pilgrim said:


> If I were a prophet, I'd say that a good number of Old School strict subscriptionists in the PCA will eventually go OPC, especially those who don't reject Roman Catholic baptism.
> 
> -----Added 2/11/2009 at 11:08:45 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Classical Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the complementarian charismatics, if they desire to depart, would go Sovereign Grace? Or if they wanted to stay, they could petition for a non-geographic presbytery, citing the New Wineskins model.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could be mistaken, but I am not aware of any paedobaptist churches that are affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Those committed to Presbyterian church government may not be happy there either since that's not their polity.
Click to expand...


Oh no! Not another Reformed denomination?? This one would be, Reformed-Charismatic-Presbyterian-Complentarian?? What would they call themselves, We're Not Like The Others Presbyterian Church?


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## Mushroom

Well, looks like they decided to pull the dress off the pig and let her dance out in the open at last.


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## Glenn Ferrell

I’m not sure which presbyteries prohibit ordination or reception of women teaching elders; but I’d guess it may be Central South and either Mid-Atlantic or South-East. These Presbyteries retain some Southern Presbyterian flavor.

This was an issue I saw coming during my 16 years in the EPC. The current influx of former PCUSA congregations with women ministers will bring it to a head. The local option for women ruling elders and presbytery option for teaching elders is an unalterable part of the EPC constitution. Individual congregations and presbyteries may make their decision. The denomination cannot as a whole change the current arrangement. However, individual congregations may easily leave with their property. 

Expect to see future flux in the makeup of the EPC.


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## shackleton

I wonder if this so they can lure churches over from the PCUSA since they developed a presbytery just for that purpose, the Wineskins Presbytery? That's how it is in the Midwest anyway. There has been a big controversy over churches leaving the PCUSA for the EPC.


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## Archlute

I was given the understanding by a man currently serving as a TE in the EPC that there are actually three presbyteries that are expressly against women's ordination. And from what he said, it is true that there are only two (maybe three) currently ordained women TE's, and that one is indeed retiring soon. 

From what I have seen, however, there exists a fair number more female REs in various congregations than that with which I would be comfortable.

As far as presbyteries go, the Presbytery of the West is the most liberal on this issue, with the added geographical disadvantage for complimentarians with strong convictions being that this presbytery apparently extends west from the Mississippi river all the way to the Pacific Ocean.


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## Casey

> ...will not prohibit candidates for ordination as Teaching Elders from being processed and presented to Presbytery due to their *gender*.


I thought "gender" was a grammatical term? Shouldn't it say "sex"?


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## Scott1

I don't mean to be casual with important biblical issues but we have here a basis for undermining one of the key characteristics of reformed theology:

"Unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement"

With sophistication of words, and knowing the history of the mainline denomination, we might as well say:



> 1. The Presbytery of the East of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) will honor the Christian liberty of individual congregations to call their ministers and, therefore, will not prohibit candidates for ordination as Teaching Elders from being processed and presented to Presbytery due to belief in or agreement to teach in public worship:
> 
> 1) the doctrines of grace
> 2) covenant theology
> 3) Westminster confession
> 4) spiritual view of the sacraments
> 
> 5. Members of Presbytery will be allowed to vote their consciences in regards to their Biblical convictions concerning an individual’s ordination as long as said candidate agrees generally with the statement:
> 
> "There is a God."


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## Classical Presbyterian

Shall we agree to not be insulting to Christian brethren?


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## Mushroom

Classical Presbyterian said:


> Shall we agree to not be insulting to Christian brethren?


Agreed, brother. But I haven't seen any of that in this thread. Unbiblical praxis and doctrine held in derision perhaps, but no Christian brethren.


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## WarrenInSC

Glenn Ferrell said:


> This was an issue I saw coming during my 16 years in the EPC. The current influx of former PCUSA congregations with women ministers will bring it to a head. The local option for women ruling elders and presbytery option for teaching elders is an unalterable part of the EPC constitution. Individual congregations and presbyteries may make their decision. The denomination cannot as a whole change the current arrangement. However, individual congregations may easily leave with their property.
> 
> Expect to see future flux in the makeup of the EPC.



My understanding is that the EPC had roughly 70,000 members before the influx of PCUSA New Wineskin churches. If you look at the sheer numbers of PCUSA members fleeing to EPC New Wineskines (check out : 
Presbyterian Church List)
you'll see that this influx can't help but eventually overwhelm any complimentarian consensus left in the EPC - all these PCUSA folks were more than willing to stay and support WO - those coming out now are mostly drawing the line at accepting the homosexual normalization agenda - even though the same approach to hermeneutics that supports WO is also used by the homo normalization crowd.
Bottom line, the EPC will become more like the PCUSA of the 1980's and early '90's, and the true complimentarian churches may start a trickle of departures to PCA and other environs.


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