# Christians right to self defense



## DouglasGregory418 (Mar 12, 2010)

Can we discuss the Christians right to self defense, and the legitimacy of Christian rebellion to unjust governments. 

Hypothetical question: would it be legitimate for Christians in the US, or Europe to take up arms (by whatever means) against an illegitimate government that both oppresses freedoms, requires the denial of Christ or scripture (say like in sweden with the condemnation of preaching against homosexuality) and restricts the Christian free worship, free enterprise, and right to self defense?

is an organized rebellion and engagement of an oppressive army by Christians against that government legitimate?


What about home defense?

I have some solid opinions on this, but I was hoping to get some outside opinions and scriptural exegesis on it.
This isn't a solely American question with our own questions on the 2nd amendment, because I would support Christians 'illegally' (but not immorally) retaining weapons and opposing the british government if it makes many more screw ups.


----------



## DouglasGregory418 (Mar 12, 2010)

Joshua said:


> The Christian should obey the magistrate unless:
> 
> 1. Said magistracy is requiring him to directly disobey God's Law, regardless of how tyrannical, etc. the magistracy is.
> 2. Another magistrate upholds the more just cause of the people and stands against the _unlawful_ demands of the aforementioned evil magistrate. At that point, every diplomatic means ought to be exhausted before arms are taken up, and if arms _are_ taken up, it better be for a good/righteous cause, and according to the Scriptural understanding of just war.
> ...


 


Ok then, but where is the line drawn. The argument could be made that the scripture commands a free market economy, or that the prohibition of alcohol is unrighteous. In those cases, and in the cases you've mentioned I think, it's wisdom that keeps us from going to war. The question is more 'is this worth it'.

How would an opposing civil magistrate be brought up to counter the evil magistrate without blood being shed, or the ability to shed blood?

Is the only thing worth fighting for the forced worship of idols or leaders (not saying that you're being unreasonable, it's just a question)? What about strategic secession so that we can properly discipline our children unlike in California, which may require war?

Perhaps you can elaborate.


----------



## Philip (Mar 12, 2010)

What exactly do we mean by "rights" here? Is there a Divinely-derived right in Scripture to bear arms, or is this simply a legal right in certain countries? I would contend that the right to bear arms is the latter--once the government ceases to permit arms, we must surrender them.


----------



## nyjbarnes (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't think you're going to find much in scripture, except for ways to stay right where you're at. I think I know where you're coming from and I think the answer is simple. It doesn't require scriptural exegesis.

Our country was founded on faith based principles. The federal government violates the law everytime they pass a new law. Everytime. If you feel called to stand up against the goverment, don't go looking in the Bible for a permission slip; I don't think you're going to find it. Most people quote Romans 13, but the context was, that the Messianic Jews wanted out from under the Roman oppression and they wanted to use "Jesus" as an excuse. This is FAR different from a government evolving to a point at which being a christian is a dirty word. We started in this country glorifying God and it's been by the passage of illegal laws by the Fed, and the idle nature of Christians that this has been allowed (God's ordained will notwidthstaning). there is nothing inherently unchristian or sinful about standing up for the rights that God provided to the forefathers of America...I think they(the forefathers) would expect YOU to stand up for what you believe in. They did.

Stand up for what you believe in, be a man, be strong, be courageous, God is with you.

That's what I think anyway.


----------



## Philip (Mar 12, 2010)

> his is FAR different from a government evolving to a point at which being a christian is a dirty word.



Not really, considering that both Peter and Paul explicitly commanded the followers of Christ to obey and honor Nero (1 Peter 2:13-25, Romans 13, etc.). When Peter says "Fear God and honor the emperor" it's clear who he means.

Are we entitled to exercise our legal rights? Yes, but we are not Biblically entitled to revolt unless there is innocent life at stake. Even civil disobedience needs to be carefully weighed.


----------



## nyjbarnes (Mar 12, 2010)

I wasn't advocating violence...just not blind submission to a corrupt government. Civil disobedience is proper until proven unsuccessful.


----------



## JM (Mar 12, 2010)

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 

This is self defense, not aggression.


----------



## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 13, 2010)

Christ told his disciples to pay their taxes and essentially remain good citizens. Rome was corrupt and oppressive. The Jews were looking for someone to rise up and lead them in a revolt. The question in the OP sounds a bit like the typical Jew in Christ's day. I think evaluating that situation in Scripture has application today.


----------



## DouglasGregory418 (Mar 15, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> What exactly do we mean by "rights" here? Is there a Divinely-derived right in Scripture to bear arms, or is this simply a legal right in certain countries? I would contend that the right to bear arms is the latter--once the government ceases to permit arms, we must surrender them.


 
would disagree with this based on 1 sam 13:9, and pretty much the rest of the old testament. Sorry.


----------



## DouglasGregory418 (Mar 16, 2010)

Here's another possible example. In America it seems very possible (probable) that soon tax payer money will go to fund abortion (murder). I personally think it would be legitimate at that point to cease paying taxes, though I would be breaking the law. I personally would be willing to enforce this lethally, but I don't want to jump the gun.
Frankly I don't see how it would be possible to be a government employee and still consider yourself righteous, if you work for a government that murders children. (off topic I know)

the only reason I bring it all up is because I don't think it would be illegitimate that if Christians gather in force and create their own civil legislature (I know, the reconstructionists dream) and defend it if things like tax payer abortion, gun restrictions, higher taxes, or any other ungodly laws go through. Some one may disagree with me, and may convince me otherwise, so please give opinions.


----------



## Philip (Mar 16, 2010)

> Here's another possible example. In America it seems very possible (probable) that soon tax payer money will go to fund abortion (murder). I personally think it would be legitimate at that point to cease paying taxes, though I would be breaking the law. I personally would be willing to enforce this lethally, but I don't want to jump the gun.



That might (possibly) be a justification for civil disobedience, but not for armed revolt. I do recall Jesus paying taxes to a Government that used them to enslave and subjugate people. If Peter and Paul could advocate honoring and obeying a tyrant whose opposition to the Gospel was government policy, I'm not sure we have a leg to stand on for armed revolt here in the free US.



> would disagree with this based on 1 sam 13:9, and pretty much the rest of the old testament. Sorry.



Not exactly sure how this verse is relevant to the topic at hand.



> the only reason I bring it all up is because I don't think it would be illegitimate that if Christians gather in force and create their own civil legislature (I know, the reconstructionists dream) and defend it if things like tax payer abortion, gun restrictions, higher taxes, or any other ungodly laws go through.



The only one of these that specifically contradicts the law of God is abortion. On what legal basis would you have Christians justify the creation of their own centralized state? If you say the Scriptures, we have a problem, given that there is no basis for republican forms of government in the OT law, only for monarchy and theocracy (and in the latter case, executive and legislative power rests in God--fine in theory, but with no human agent, a bit unworkable).


----------



## natedogg1777 (Apr 5, 2010)

First post - Hoping that my signature works!

Doesn't the founding of our own country fit under the "organized rebellion and engagement of an oppressive army by Christians" banner? I've often wondered about that considering that the consensus - among Christians at least - is that our nation was founded on faith-based principles, yet it all began by rebelling against the government in power. I'm certainly glad the American Revolution took place, but it does seem a bit odd when trying to fit that within the framework of submitting to the authorities that God has put in place. Any thoughts?

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

Sorry, figured out my signature now...I think.


----------



## jwright82 (Apr 6, 2010)

The problem here is that this is not an easy question to answer. We live in a fallen world, this changes the game completly. I respect pacifism very much but I often ask pacifists, here in America, why we don't see these great pacifist movements in places like Africa and South America where thousands if not millions are being slaughtered? Also why is pacifism populer among middle class students here, where the military uses force to protect this right of theirs? I bring these up to show that the issue is highly complex.

In a post fallen world we have to accept the reality of neccessary evils just to function. Hurting someone is wrong but if you brake into someone's house than they can and probally will use force to protect themselves and their families? Imagine a world where it was illegal to use force of anykind against someone, how high do you think the crime rate would go?

The use of force is neccessary in the restraint of evil. As far as self-defense goes I think it is legitamate to use force to protect ones saftey and ones property. As far as the line goes, this is a complex issue that requires deep research and thinking. The state of Florida has some good practical measures that I feel would be good rules of thumb to use. I am allowed to defend myself but If someone trys to punch me I cannot hit them with some weapon in my self-defense. 

As far as armed millitia is concerned, number one it should be a last resort, there is no easy answer or else we would have found it by now. Also it is impossible to have overarching rule that can cover all examples, it is decided on a case by case basis. Since abortion is voluntary we do not, in my opinion, have the right to form millitias and over throw the goverment. If the goverment made it legal to commit abortions or euthanasias on our pontential or actual children without our consent than, in my opinion, it would be okay to resist the goverment with force. The person who voluntaraly gets an abortion will have to answer to God one day not us. So armed resistance is just as complex as anyother issue, no goverment will or could be perfect so there will always be some reason to make an argument to overthrow them, but we wouldn't agree that each and every case is legitamate so drawing the line is tricky.


----------

