# dance in worship



## rembrandt (May 4, 2004)

dance in worship: against the regulative principle? 

How are we to differentiate between what the levitical priesthood did and the congregation?


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## staythecourse (May 4, 2004)

*White people can't dance*

That's the only rule.

Messianic Jews can for sure - they can teach us the right way.

I do this to amuse myself.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 4, 2004)

what about when david mentions dancing? Not that IU would I can barely sing


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## Bladestunner316 (May 4, 2004)

White people cant dance


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## rembrandt (May 4, 2004)

there is clear evidence in the OT that the Lord commanded dance in worship. And in the lists when God describes the worship of the 'people,' he describes dance as one of those means.

Where do we draw the line between the worship of the Levitical priesthood and the congregation. Also, many things done by the Levitical priesthood are also to be done by NT saints.

Are we to say that just because it isn't in the NT that it should not be done? 

My arguement would be that dance in the OT was supposed to minister to the congregation. Now we have no need for it. 

Rembrandt


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## fredtgreco (May 4, 2004)

[quote:0466375889][i:0466375889]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:0466375889]
there is clear evidence in the OT that the Lord commanded dance in worship. [/quote:0466375889]

Where would this be? It certainly is not the case with David and the ark, so you must be referring to something else.


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## rembrandt (May 4, 2004)

[quote:7c78b12691][i:7c78b12691]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:7c78b12691]
[quote:7c78b12691][i:7c78b12691]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:7c78b12691]
there is clear evidence in the OT that the Lord commanded dance in worship. [/quote:7c78b12691]

Where would this be? It certainly is not the case with David and the ark, so you must be referring to something else. [/quote:7c78b12691]

How about the last two Psalms?


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## Mary (May 5, 2004)

White people can't dance? Sure we can. We just look funny doing it. God likes to laugh too, you know...

Now, this is just me, but dance in worship just sounds sooooo hippie to me. There was a small movement in that direction in the Catholic Church in the early 70s. I have vague recollections of &quot;plainclothes&quot; nuns in leotards with guitars and tamborines doing some kind of freestyle modern dance. 

(shudder)

Mary

 Sr. Mary Magdalene doing her praise dance


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2004)

*Traditional Southern Baptist*

Our pastor does a pretty good job of bucking unwritten rules in our Southern Baptist, 100+ year old, traditional, 80% senior citizen church. 

He never calls it &quot;dancing&quot; - just &quot;creative movement&quot; with a big grin on his face. He knows what he's up against in the formal church!

We have dancers occasionally (young girls doing ballet) and even sometimes a black lady dances during offeratory. &quot;I Know My Redeemer Lives&quot; exhillerating to hear and see a person perform. We have a deaf young lady sign it (like dancing!) before the congregation and it almost brings this fella to tears!

Motives, skill, and appropriateness would be the deciding factors as to whether or not to have dancing. 

Celebrate! I say!

&quot;Dance before the Lord!&quot; (OK I just did)


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## JonathonHunt (May 5, 2004)

What possible purpose can dancing in a worship service serve? It is not worship at all! We may glorify God with our lives, and with the excercise of our gifts - which might include dancing - but this doesn't mean we bring it into church. A master bricklayer doesn't build a small wall in front of the pulpit as 'worship'. The Baker doesn't bake a fine cake and present it as 'worship'. 

Worship is intelligent personal/corporate communication with God, in WORDS.

'God is a spirit - and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. ' (John Ch 4 v23-34)



AS for the last two psalms - it is clear that they contradict the earlier specific rules for instruments to be used in temple worship (and scripture cannot contradict itself) and apply to the corporate celebrations of the Nation-State of Israel. They were not directions for the temple. David danced before the Ark in a public procession of national triumph. There is a distinction to be seen between temple worship and national celebrations.



[Edited on 5-5-2004 by JonathanHunt]


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## fredtgreco (May 5, 2004)

Jonathan is absolutely correct about Psalm 149 and 150. You must do violence to Scripture in order to make that corporate worship.

Furthermore, there often seems to be a desire on the part of many to make anything and everything that is in the psalms appropriate for corporate worship, since &quot;the psalms are the worship book of the people of God.&quot;

This is clear fallacy. Unless of course you desire to look at all the psalms and not mere selections:

[color=blue:638c507177]I will freely sacrifice to You; I will praise Your name, O LORD, for it is good. (Psalms 54:6)

God is the LORD, And He has given us light; Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar. (Psalms 118:27)

Let my prayer be set before You as incense, The lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. (Psalms 141:2) [/color:638c507177]

but I don't think I see anyone arguing here for animal sacrifices in corporate worship.


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## tcalbrecht (May 5, 2004)

[quote:6fe5d47a28][i:6fe5d47a28]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:6fe5d47a28]
Jonathan is absolutely correct about Psalm 149 and 150. You must do violence to Scripture in order to make that corporate worship.

Furthermore, there often seems to be a desire on the part of many to make anything and everything that is in the psalms appropriate for corporate worship, since &quot;the psalms are the worship book of the people of God.&quot;

This is clear fallacy. Unless of course you desire to look at all the psalms and not mere selections:

...

but I don't think I see anyone arguing here for animal sacrifices in corporate worship. [/quote:6fe5d47a28]


[quote:6fe5d47a28]
Praise the Lord! Sing to the Lord a new song, And His praise in the assembly of saints. Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. [b:6fe5d47a28]Let them praise His name with the dance;[/b:6fe5d47a28] Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. For the Lord takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation. Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. 

[b:6fe5d47a28]Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance on the nations, And punishments on the peoples; [/b:6fe5d47a28] To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute on them the written judgment-- This honor have all His saints. Praise the Lord! (Psalm 149)

[/quote:6fe5d47a28]

We hear a lot about dancing. I wonder how come noboby ever advocates worshipping with our swords.


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## Preach (May 5, 2004)

Bryan,
You posted that there is a young deaf woman in your church that signs to the interpretive dance (?) I used to sign a pastor's sermons , in church, years ago. I was wondering, how many deaf people do you have in the congregation? Thanks.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2004)

*Not ignoring you guys. I'll get back*

Preach, We have about 50 people in a section for deaf or hard of hearing. If people haven't watched song's signed, it's a treat to behold.

Now, she and others sign to songs usually on Wednesday nights when she does. We have a Sunday school class to meet their needs.

Regarding the rest of the conversation regarding the Psalms I believe some things in the Psalms still apply and others don't. Dancing would fall in that category in my interpretation - &quot;Look for ways to worship God&quot; would be a good motto but just keep anything that's done in bounds. What bounds? Biblical and if it can't be done in the right spirit it shouldn't be. 

Is it the primitive Methodists or Mennonites that have no music - how sad though they have a similar argument - it's not mentioned in the NT. Thank God for freedom!

I sing, play music, etc and move my white honky body to worship with the congregation a little. Even raise my hands. Come on now, it's gotta be a little uplifting (pardon the pun!)


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## Bernard_Marx (May 5, 2004)

Bryan,

I agree that there are some things in the Psalms that can still be used in worship today. However from my understanding things like dancing, etc. when examined Biblically all took place during processions or festivals that no longer happen. 

Inasfar as the psalms are concerned my question is what do you do with Psalms like 149 where people are said to dance and kill heathen kings to God's glory in the same psalm? Why one and not the other? These questions need to be answered before this arguement can be advanced any further.


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## sundoulos (May 5, 2004)

I've seen a lot of Arminian preachers dance when they come to passages of Scripture talking about election, forordination, predestination, etc.


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## Mary (May 5, 2004)

[quote:fa6c3d0bdf]
I sing, play music, etc and move my white honky body to worship with the congregation a little.
[/quote:fa6c3d0bdf]



[quote:fa6c3d0bdf]
Hey now...don't confuse dance with gymnastics! 
[/quote:fa6c3d0bdf]



You guys crack me up!

[quote:fa6c3d0bdf]
Is it the primitive Methodists or Mennonites that have no music - how sad though they have a similar argument - it's not mentioned in the NT. Thank God for freedom! 
[/quote:fa6c3d0bdf]

The Mennonites have music. At least, there are Mennonite choirs. I used to go to school with a girl who was on one. Don't know about primitive Methodists. Some Quakers don't sing. They sit in silence and &quot;wait on the Spirit.&quot; I tried it - it didn't work! I guess I'm too fidgety. Plus I didn't buy into the whole pacifism thing. (Darn Scott Bushey - he got rid of the gun bouncy!) Well, bang, bang, bang!

Mary 

Who sings (badly) but tries never to dance around other living creatures, because she is frightening to animals and small children.


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## tcalbrecht (May 5, 2004)

[quote:c3583cf2c1][i:c3583cf2c1]Originally posted by Mary[/i:c3583cf2c1]
[quote:c3583cf2c1]
Is it the primitive Methodists or Mennonites that have no music - how sad though they have a similar argument - it's not mentioned in the NT. Thank God for freedom! 
[/quote:c3583cf2c1]

Don't know about primitive Methodists. [/quote:c3583cf2c1]

My wife was raised primitive Methodist and I'm sure they used music in their churches. We would joke about them wearing grass skirts in worship.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2004)

Come to think of it - the no music rule was Disciples of Christ. Like kissing a porkupine on some issues.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2004)

When it comes to killing heathen kings, our war isn't against flesh and blood but against principalities.

I have not read Spurgeon's Treasury of David but I imagine he would say the same thing regarding those type of passages? Tell me those who might know.

I believe those passages and the like are still applicable in that respect.

Also, most of us are WASPS. WASPS don't dance in church. I'm not making too much fun, it's in our subculture.

People danced as a nation after crossing the Red Sea, too. They were overoyed in their freedom. They weren't the temple then but the nation. We are the nation now. They were not the temple but now we are the temple.

It'll be hard to convince me otherwise. When an arguement seems too close to call from a Biblical standpoint, I often assent to the left than the right. I ask for discernment regarding legalism as it stifels the wonderful freedom Jesus offers us, especially in praising and thanking Him.


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## fredtgreco (May 5, 2004)

Bryan,

What hermeneutic are you using that says that one is applicable and the other is not? On what basis, other than your own decision? (which, by the way, is contrary to every branch of the Reformed church for 500 years)


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## rembrandt (May 5, 2004)

[quote:ede3df7da7]When it comes to killing heathen kings, our war isn't against flesh and blood but against principalities.[/quote:ede3df7da7]

If you want to allegorize that, you could also allegorize dance. You could say that we dance within our hearts... whatever that is...


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## Bernard_Marx (May 5, 2004)

Bryan,

I'm not a WASP and I've never danced in church and I never plan to. Although I do enjoy Bollywood, and if you're lucky you can catch me dancing to it while vacuuming.

Could you please explain this:


[i:676207ddcc]People danced as a nation after crossing the Red Sea, too. They were overoyed in their freedom. They weren't the temple then but the nation. We are the nation now. They were not the temple but now we are the temple. [/i:676207ddcc]

And this:

[i:676207ddcc]It'll be hard to convince me otherwise. When an arguement seems too close to call from a Biblical standpoint, I often assent to the left than the right. I ask for discernment regarding legalism as it stifels the wonderful freedom Jesus offers us, especially in praising and thanking Him.[/i:676207ddcc]

Just how am I being legalistic here??

Tom


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## Len (May 5, 2004)

&lt;off topic - not trying to hijack!&gt;

What is Bollywood?uzzled:


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## Craig (May 5, 2004)

[quote:50db11aa26]
Although I do enjoy Bollywood, and if you're lucky you can catch me dancing to it while vacuuming. 
[/quote:50db11aa26]
I've only seen one Bollywood movie...Lagan, it was excellent.

Oh...and dancing during worship...I'm thinking that I can't think of an instance where it's demanded for worship during corporate worship.

I'm not against people &quot;moving&quot; when they're singing, but outright dancing is distracting. Too often, I think it would turn into a performance more than worship...growing up in church, the people who'd do solo specials were almost exclusively performance people (show choir, musical performers, vocalists)


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## Mary (May 6, 2004)

[quote:8024c4bae3]
What is Bollywood?
[/quote:8024c4bae3]

Apparently India has their own movie industry, where they make feature films, which to us are &quot;foreign films&quot; but to them aren't (if you get my drift). If I remember correctly (which is a BIG if) it's centered in Bombay. Anyway, it has gotten the moniker &quot;Bollywood&quot; cuz they're kind of like Hollywood, only NOT...

Personally I've never seen a Bollywood movie. My idea of a foreign film is one with British people in it. I have to be the only girl around who doesn't like foreign films, although every so often my sister makes me watch one with her...

But I digress.

Mary 
uzzled: trying to figure out what this foreign movie is supposed to be ABOUT anyway?


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## Bernard_Marx (May 6, 2004)

Let me fill the gap in Bollywood knowledge here. Bollywood movies are excellent. I live in the middle of a neighbourhood that is filled with Indian people. There is an Indian movie theatre 10 mins down the road so I often go to see the movies. The polt is pretty much the same: a girl and guy like eachother and want to get married but they can't so they dance. I highly reccomend it. Pure escapist entertainment.


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## staythecourse (May 6, 2004)

*Let me do more research*

I haven't met Mr. Nutics yet so it may take me more time. I'll try to give an intelligent response.


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## staythecourse (May 6, 2004)

*I have met Mr. Spurgeon though.*

Very vaguely, though,

I went to spurgeon.org and did a search on what he said about dance and fortunately it came out with two of the Psalms we have been discussing that bring up dance. Psalm 149 &amp; 150

Psalm 149 Verse 3. &quot;Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.&quot; 

Thus let them repeat the triumph of the Red Sea, which was ever the typical glory of Israel. Miriam led the daughters of Israel in the dance when the Lord had triumphed gloriously; was it not most fit that she should? The sacred dance of devout joy is no example, nor even excuse, for frivolous dances, much less for lewd ones. Who could help dancing when Egypt was vanquished, and the tribes were free? Every mode of expressing delight was bound to be employed on so memorable an occasion. Dancing, singing, and playing on instruments were all called into requisition, and most fitly so. There are unusual seasons which call for unusual expressions of joy. When the Lord saves a soul its holy joy overflows, and it cannot find channels enough for its exceeding gratitude: if the man does not leap, or play, or sing, at any rate he praises God, and wishes for a thousand tongues with which to magnify his Saviour. Who would wish it to be otherwise?

Psalm 150 Verse 4. Praise him with the timbrel and dance. Associated with the deliverance at the Red Sea, this form of worship set forth the most jubilant and exultant of worship. The hands and the feet were both employed, and the entire body moved in sympathy with the members. Are there not periods of life when we feel so glad that we would fain dance for joy? Let not such exhilaration be spent upon common themes, but let the name of God stir us to ecstasy.

Not an air tight case but Spurgeon advocated dance and worship together.


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## JonathonHunt (May 6, 2004)

Bryan...

Sorry, but thats just a misreading of Spurgeon. Yes, he talks of the joy of Israel in its special season, and the joy of the soul at conversion. Great joys indeed. And yes they did dance - that was right for them in their national celebration. Should we not feel the same joy and jubilation in our souls that we could be moved to jump for joy? Of course we should. And such joy should be outworked in our lives through worship (which as already discussed is NOT dancing but intelligent words addressed to God!), and christian service.

Spurgeon is taking CORPORATE activities in the national life of Israel and relating them to INDIVIDUAL christian lives. he is not making a like for like comparison. Read some more Spurgeon and you will soon find that he would abhor virtually everything that passes for 'worship' today.

But dancing was never, ever his church practice. He is not advocating dance in the worship service here. There never was dancing at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, there sure isn't today, and DV there never will be. There is reverent, profound, worship there today, as there was in his day.

Spurgeon wouldn't even have a single instrument in his services. They prayed, read the word, sang psalms and hymns, and heard the word preached. Would to God that churches today did the same. I firmly believe that the blessing of the Lord will rest upon those who will honour Him and give no quarter to the ways of this fallen, vain and passing world.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by JonathanHunt]


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