# I need help defending the Trinity against a Pentecostal Oneness advocate!



## jawyman

This person I am speaking with is caught up with the Oneness movement in the Pentecostal church. I have cited the WCF, WLC, WSC, Belgic, Heidelberg, the French Confession, and the London Confession. Here is the list of Scripture they gave me in support of Oneness:

1 John 5:7-8

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, (a)the Word, and the Holy Ghost: (b) and these three are "one". 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth, (a) the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three "agree" in one. 

(a) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(b) John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

8(a) John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. 

So we have established that God is the Word...

John 1:14 And the "Word" was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19:13; 16 (Second Coming) (Read in its entirety) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the "The Word of God."

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 


Additional:

God: There is only one God (Deut 6:4) He is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all living things. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the Son (Saviour), and as the Holy Ghost (indwelling Spirit).

Father: God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6) There was no God formed before Him; neither shall there be after Him (Isaiah 43:10)

Son: Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit ( Matt 1:23) Jesus is the Christ (Matt 16:16); the Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matt 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16); He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Rev 1:8); the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) 

It took the shedding of blood for the remission of sins of the world (Heb 9:22), but God the Father was a Spirit and had no blood to shed. Thus He prepared a body of flesh and blood (Hebr 10:5) and came to the earth as a man in order to save us, for in Isaiah 43:11 He said "Beside me there is no Saviour." When He came in flesh the angels sang "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11)

I would appreciate the help. Thanks all.


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## MMasztal

You've covered it adequately, but it will take the Holy Spirit to open their minds to the truth.


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## Mushroom

> Joh 20:26-29 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. (27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.  (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Thomas was commended, not rebuked, for calling Jesus God.


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## Pergamum

Amazon.com: Forgotten Trinity, The (9781556617256): James White: Books


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## Simply_Nikki

jawyman said:


> Here is the list of Scripture *they* gave me in support of Oneness:
> 
> 1 John 5:7-8
> 
> 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, (a)the Word, and the Holy Ghost: (b) and these three are "one". 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth, (a) the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three "agree" in one.
> 
> (a) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> 
> (b) John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
> 
> 8(a) John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
> 
> So we have established that God is the Word...
> 
> John 1:14 And the "Word" was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
> 
> Rev 19:13; 16 (Second Coming) (Read in its entirety) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the "The Word of God."
> 
> Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
> 
> 
> Additional:
> 
> God: There is only one God (Deut 6:4) He is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all living things. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the Son (Saviour), and as the Holy Ghost (indwelling Spirit).
> 
> Father: God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6) There was no God formed before Him; neither shall there be after Him (Isaiah 43:10)
> 
> Son: Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit ( Matt 1:23) Jesus is the Christ (Matt 16:16); the Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matt 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16); He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Rev 1:8); the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)
> 
> It took the shedding of blood for the remission of sins of the world (Heb 9:22), but God the Father was a Spirit and had no blood to shed. Thus He prepared a body of flesh and blood (Hebr 10:5) and came to the earth as a man in order to save us, for in Isaiah 43:11 He said "Beside me there is no Saviour." When He came in flesh the angels sang "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11)
> 
> I would appreciate the help. Thanks all.



Correct me if i'm wrong but don't these scriptures all support the orthodox view of the trinity? 

God is 3 in 1. I think their notion of what that means is why they twist these scriptures to deny the personhood and distinction of the 3 all together subsisting as one. I think Oneness Pentecostals believe in a type of modalism (God was the Father in the OT, the Son in the NT and the Holy Spirit today) I think they deny that they distinctly subsist together as the same God. Let me know if I am incorrect. 

I will admit the doctrine of the Trinity can be kind of confusing, however it is essential to understand that God is a perfect relationship with himself and that he does NOT change. So either God can change (modalism = heresy) or God is the same (all three persons have also existed are co-equal and co-eternal = orthodoxy). 

There may be some stuff on the CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry site. I know Matt Slick deals with oneness pentecostals, along with mormons on a daily basis. You may wanna check that site out to see if he has some resources in defending the Trinity.


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## awretchsavedbygrace

A good read.


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## au5t1n

as well. CARM.org is an excellent resource for dealing with Oneness Pentecostals.


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## awretchsavedbygrace

I think what needs to be established is that we don't believe that there are 3 beings. Something Muslims, and oneness people accuse us of. We believe that there are 3 persons in ONE being. 

These are very good! Dr. Walter Martin and his partner do a well job. 
[video=youtube;vzQdUxAK58A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQdUxAK58A[/video]


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## KMK

> Westminster Shorter Catechism Project
> 
> 
> The Shorter Catechism
> of the Westminster Assembly
> Explained and Proved
> from Scripture
> by
> Thomas Vincent
> 
> VI. Ques. How many persons are there in the Godhead?
> Ans. There are three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory.
> Q. 1. What is meant by the Godhead?
> A. By the Godhead is meant the divine nature or essence.
> 
> Q. 2. Are there three divine natures or essences, or are there three Gods?
> A. No; for though the three persons be God, the Father God, the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, yet they are rot three Gods, but one God. The essence of God is the same in all the three persons. "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word [that is, the Son], and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."— 1 John 5:7.
> 
> Q. 3 What is meant by the three persons in the Godhead?
> A. By the three persons in the Godhead, we are to. understand the same nature of God with three ways of subsisting, each person having its distinct personal properties.
> 
> Q. 4. What is the personal property of the Father?
> A. The personal property of the Father is to beget the Son, and that from all eternity. "Unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever."— Heb. 1:5, 8.
> 
> Q. 5. What is the personal property of the Son?
> A. The personal property of the Son is to be begotten of the Father. "We beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father."— John 1:14.
> 
> Q. 6. What is the personal property of the Holy Ghost?
> A. The personal property of the Holy Ghost is to proceed from the Father and the Son. "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."— John 15:26.
> 
> Q. 7. How doth it appear that the Father is God?
> A. Because the Father is the original of the other persons, and of every thing else, and because divine attributes and worship are ascribed to him.
> 
> Q. 8. How doth it appear that the Son is God?
> A. 1. Because he is called God in the Scriptures. "And the Word was God."— John 1:1. "Of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever."— Rom. 9:5. 2. Because the attributes of God are ascribed unto him. Eternity. "Before Abraham was, I am."— John 8:58. Omniscience. "Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee."— John 21:17. Omnipresence. "Where two or three are gathered together in my liame, there am I in the midst of them."— Matt. 18:20. Divine power. "He uphoideth all things by the word of his power."— Heb. 1:3.3. Because the honour and worship which is due only to God, do belong to him. In him we must believe. "Believe also in me."— John 14:1. In his name we must be baptized. "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "— Matt. 28:19. Upon his name we must call. "With all that call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."— 1 Cor. 1:2. Because if the Son were not God, he could not have been a fit Mediator.
> 
> Q. 9. How doth it appear that the Holy Ghost is God?
> A. 1. Because the Holy Ghost is called God. "Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost! Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God "— Acts 5:3-4. 2. Because the attributes of God are ascribed unto him. Omnipresence. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit I"— Ps. 139:7. Especially, he is present in the hearts of all believers. "He dwelleth in you, and shall be in you." — John 14:17. Omniscience. "The Spirit searcheth all things."— 1 Cor. 2:10. 3. Because of the powerful works of the Spirit, which none but God can effect: such as— Regeneration. "Except a man be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."— John 3:5. Guiding believers into all truth. "Howbeit, when the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you jute all truth."— John 16:13. Sanctification. "That the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost."— Rom. 15:16. Comfort, called therefore the Comforter. "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."— John 15:26. Communion. "The communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all"— 2 Cor. 13:14. 4. Because the honour and worship due only to God, do belong unto the Spirit, we must believe in him. This is an article of the creed (commonly called the Apostles' Creed), "I believe in the Holy Ghost." We must be baptized in his name. "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."— Matt. 28:19.
> 
> Q. 10. How doth it appear that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, being one God, are three distinct persons?
> A. 1. The Father begetting, is called a person in the Scripture.— Heb. 1:3. Christ is said to be the express image of his person; and by the same reason, the Son begotten of the Father, is a person, and the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and the Son is a person. 2. That the Father and the Son are distinct persons, is evident from John 18:16-18 "I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself; and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me." 3. That the Holy Ghost is a distinct person from the Father and the Son, appeareth from John 14:16-17. "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth," &c. 4. That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct persons, in one essence, may be gathered from 1 John 5:7. "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. These three are either three substances, or three manifestations, or three persons, or something else besides persons; but— (l.) They are not three substances, because in the same verse they are called one. (2.) They are not three manifestations, because all the attributes of God are manifestations, and so there would be more than three or thirteen; and then one manifestation would be said to beget and send another, which is absurd. (3.) They are not something else besides persons; therefore, they are three distinct persons, distinguished by their relations and distinct personal properties.
> 
> Q. 11. What should we Judge of them that deny that there are three distinct persons in one Godhead?
> A. 1. We ought to judge them to be blasphemers, because they speak against the ever-glorious God, who hath Set forth himself in this distinction in the Scripture. 2. To be damnable heretics; this doctrine of the distinction of persons in the unity of essence being a fundamental truth, denied of old by the Sabellians, Arians, Photineans and of late by the Socinians, who were against the Godhead of Christ the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; amongst whom the Quakers are also to be numbered, who deny this distinction.



This and many other great resources are available here: Westminster Shorter Catechism Project


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## cih1355

John 10:30 says "I and the Father are one." This verse does not mean that Jesus and the Father are the same person. This verse means that Jesus and the Father have the same nature or essence. 

In John 17, Jesus prays to the Father. This shows that Jesus and the Father are not the same person. Obviously, Jesus did not pray to Himself. 

According to John 14:28, Jesus said that the Father was greater than Him. Jesus and the Father could not be the same person. It doesn't make sense to say that a person is greater than himself. Also, Jesus was not denying His divinity. Jesus meant that He had a lower position than the Father. 

Just because Jesus and the Father are different persons doesn't mean that there is more than one God. There is only one God and at the same time there are three persons who are God.


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## Marrow Man

Check out the Department of Christian Defense and the section on Oneness theology there (for some reason, I'm having trouble connecting now, though).

The author of the site (Edward Dalcour, who is reformed) also has a book on Oneness theology for sale, and it is quite good.


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## the particular baptist

The Gospel of John thoroughly obliterates the Oneness heresy.


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## au5t1n

> 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
> And Israel, My called:
> I am He, I am the First,
> I am also the Last.
> 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
> And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
> When I call to them,
> They stand up together.
> 14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
> Who among them has declared these things?
> The LORD loves him;
> He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
> And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
> 15 I, even I, have spoken;
> Yes, I have called him,
> I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
> 16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
> I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
> From the time that it was, I was there.
> And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
> Have[a] sent Me.”
> -Is. 48:12-16 NKJV



This passage from Isaiah is a good one for the eternality of the son as a distinct person, and yet still being God. Note that the Son is speaking here.


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## puritan lad

I highly recommend this classic (free download):

Dr. John Owen: A Brief Declaration and Vindication of The Doctrine of the Trinity


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## earl40

Who was Jesus talking to in the garden? Himself?


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## jawyman

earl40 said:


> Who was Jesus talking to in the garden? Himself?



That is what I asked!! All I got back was a blank stare.

-----Added 12/14/2009 at 03:27:40 EST-----

[/QUOTE]I know Matt Slick deals with oneness pentecostals, along with mormons on a daily basis. You may wanna check that site out to see if he has some resources in defending the Trinity.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Nikki, I printed out the Matt Slick material yesterday in fact.


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## lynnie

I can tell you what worked for me.

I was really frustrated with a dear woman about this years ago; her son played with my son at the local Christian school. She was trying hard to convince me of oneness.

My hub told me to call a professor at Westminster Seminary, who he thought would be the very best person to ask about approaching this. So I did. The prof told me immediately to stay completely with the father and son and drop the holy spirit. He said that the two is presented so clearly that it is hard to refute, while the three is more implied and they will more easily debate. But if you stick to two, once they admit that, you are 90% of the way there to the trinity.

It worked. I had the gospel of John and Revelation with two, and then that marvelous passage in Daniel 7:9-14 where the son of man comes to the Ancient of days and all authority is given to him. 

This girl capitulated pretty fast to two. It is impossible to fight the clarity of the two. The Holy Spirit as equal took longer, but now they are in a five point Calvinist church. So pray and don't give up!

One other thing that really helped soften her is that I had to admit that EVERY time in the book of Acts when they baptized it says they did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (or some variation) and not father, son and holy spirit. Trinitarians don't like to admit it but that is what it says. Now, I also said that it means that all authority had been given to the son, and the son is not the same as the father, but "in the name of" means "in the authority of", which is why there is no conflict with Jesus commanding to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and holy spirit. The authority of all three is equal and the son has been given the Father's authority. But if this subject comes up, which I think it will, you must admit that the apostles baptized in Jesus name. If you don't admit their pet passages in Acts, they won't be open to yours either. Baptizing in Jesus name is a huge deal with oneness. I would just agree that baptism in Romans 6 is an identification with the work of the son in death, burial, and resurrection, and try to not get distracted but then move on to the Father-Son relationship.


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## Scott1

I think you may already have this. After looking at the summary of the doctrine of Scripture in the Westminster Confession, study the (many) Scripture proofs for each statement and/or proposition of doctrine.

These show the Trinity is implicit to who God is, by good and necessary consequence from Scripture.



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter II
> Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
> 
> I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]
> II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]
> III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
> 
> 
> Scripture Proofs
> 
> 
> [1] DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. 1CO 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God by one. 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
> [2] 1TH 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. JER 10:10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King.
> [3] JOB 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? 8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? 9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways; but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
> [4] JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
> [5] 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
> [6] DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
> [7] ACT 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein.
> [8] JAM 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. MAL 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
> [9] 1KI 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? JER 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
> [10] PSA 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
> [11] PSA 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
> [12] GEN 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
> [13] ROM 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
> [14] ISA 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
> [15] PSA 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
> [16] EXO 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
> [17] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
> [18] PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
> [19] 1JO 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
> [20] EXO 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
> [21] HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
> [22] NEH 9:32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day. 33 Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly.
> [23] PSA 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
> [24] NAH 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
> [25] JOH 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
> [26] ACT 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran.
> [27] PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
> [28] 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
> [29] ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.
> [30] JOB 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself? 3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him that thou makest thy ways perfect?
> [31] ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
> [32] REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. DAN 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
> [33] HEB 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
> [34] ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? PSA 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
> [35] ACT 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. EZE 11:5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
> [36] PSA 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
> [37] REV 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
> [38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
> [39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
> [40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


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## jawyman

All, here is the reply I received this morning from my Pentecostal friend:

I finally sat down tonight to go over what you sent me and looked up most of the scriptures you provided. I actually kinda chuckled to myself because The Belgic Confession of Faith and the London Confession of Faith along with the scriptures given, they made my point. They just use fancy words to make it sound as if there are three distinct persons in the Godhead. I don't like using other people's view on what they think. I like to go directly to the scriptures and let the scriptures tell me what I need to know. What I sent you earlier out of John was used alot. Here is my question, the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God" "The Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost bear record in heaven "these three are one" Are you denying that God is the Word? If the Bible says these three are one, then why take someone's word that they are distinct but yet one? It doesn't even make sense to me.. The Word of God is the Authority. How can three persons be distinct but yet one? I agree with the Bible. My Bible (not a man) tells me that there is only one God. All the verses given backup that there is only ONE God and not three distinct persons in the Godhead.

1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.

2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No. 

3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes. 

4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity. 

5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one." 

6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19. 

7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16. 

8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9. 

9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance." 

10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No. 

11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. 

12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22. 

13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10. 

14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent. 

15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16. 

16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10. 

17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9. 

18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9. 

19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8 

20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.

21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18 

22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2. 

23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate. 

24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10 

25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19. 

26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14. 

27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14. 

28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16. 

29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13. 

30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5. 

31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11. 

32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1. 

33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh. 

34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8. 

35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10. 

36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8. 

37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2. 

38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4. 

39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9. 

40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16. 

41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8 

42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16. 

43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7. 

44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior. 

45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20. 

46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16. 

47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5. 

48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59. 

49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28. 

50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19. 

51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23. 

52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30. 

53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11. 

54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25. 

55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13. 

56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord. 

57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17. 

58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate. 

59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body. 

60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


Your Friend


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## puritan lad

Your friend is a modalist (most Onesness folk are). He doesn't deny the Divinity of Christ, but does deny his unique personhood from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

_"And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."_ (Matthew 3:16-17).

In this passage, the other two members of the triune godhead introduce us to God the Son. The Son is clearly the Son of God, and God Himself addresses His Son as a person. While the Father and Son are One (John 10:30) in essence, they are clearly separate persons in substance. This distinction of personhood is clearly shown throughout the Scriptures. In Isaiah 53:1-12, we see that He (the Son) was "smitten of God" (Isaiah 53:4), thus requiring the Son to be different in substance from the Father. "Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all....Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief... and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 53:10) Who can deny the clear separation of the persons of our one God? Christ, the Son of the Father, clarified the distinction between the He and the Father in John 14:6-13. He prayed to the Father on many occasions, addressing Him as a distinct person (Matthew 11:25; John 17:1; John 15:24) and having His own disctinct will (Luke 22:42; John 6:38; Hebrews 10:9). In turn, the Father addresses His Son as a distinct person (Psalms 2:7-12; Psalms 110:1-2; Matthew 3:16-17).


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## ReformedDave

As a former OP I can re-recommend James White's book and also the book "Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity" by Greg Boyd. He used to be in that denomination and has a pretty good grasp of the subject. He has embraced the 'openness of God' theology so I don't recommend his other books but this one is good.

Just some advice. Study and know the trinitarian position through and through. OPs like to take many scriptures out of context and they generally don't have an overarching view of God and His character. They will 'proof text' you to death.


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## reformedminister

I got caught up in that movement for about five years as a young believer. I also was highly involved in teaching people Bible studies to convert people to "the tuth", in that group. These people don't care about Confessions, or books on the Trinity. They won't read them or listen to you so don't even bother recommending them. Only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes, and your best resource is the Holy Bible. They can explain away just about anything that you can show them with their interpretations. You may have to approach them with other doctrines that they deny. Salvation by grace through faith is a big one. They teach salvation by works, after they are baptized by immersion in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues. Explain baptism in this way: when Jesus commissioned the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost the word name is not a reference to a particular name but means authority. The book of Acts says they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, or the name of Jesus because it was Jesus who commissioned them. It does not mean they uttered the name of "Jesus" over them, but baptized under the authority of Christ. Some of them like to use Acts 4:12 to prove that the only baptismal formula is the name of Jesus. That Scripture has nothing to do with baptism. It simply means that people can only be saved through Christ. Pray for them and let the Holy Spirit guide you. If they will listen, plant seeds of truth through the Word of God. The truth is a powerful thing. I remember one time meeting a pastor and his wife who were not oneness and when the pastors wife found out what church I went to, she said "you are in legalism!" Although I didn't believe her, I never forgot her words and they haunted me for the next two years, until I finally got delivered from that false teaching. It is false doctrine which they proclaim to be "the truth".


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## py3ak

Your friend has some good proofs for the deity of Christ. But that is not the point at issue. He needs to realize that you confess the deity of Christ in the most absolute and sweeping terms imaginable.

But there is grave error there as well. His list demonstrates that he doesn't understand what Trinitarian doctrine actually is, as it is to be hoped no Trinitarian is foolish enough to say that the Persons are one in the sense that a husband and wife are.

58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.​
"I" and "thou" are terms are personal, relative opposition (not essential opposition). Without that relative opposition, John 17 becomes unintelligible hash. John 17 also proves that Christ was the Son in eternity - before the incarnation, and so it was not merely as a result of the incarnation that He is called son.


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## Marrow Man

earl40 said:


> Who was Jesus talking to in the garden? Himself?



I believe a typical OP response would be that His human side was talking to His divine side (I'm not sure if they would use the term "nature").


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## reformedminister

Marrow Man said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who was Jesus talking to in the garden? Himself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe a typical OP response would be that His human side was talking to His divine side (I'm not sure if they would use the term "nature").
Click to expand...


Oneness pentecostalism is an old heresy, Modalism. They teach that God is One and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the three modes God expresses Himself in. He is the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration. When Jesus was praying in the garden, it was not the Son praying to the Father, but the humanity of Christ praying to Deity. Also, they teach that Jesus didn't need to, but did so for the disciples benefit, to teach them a good example.


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## lynnie

jawyman, your friend has done an impressive job. That's an excellent rebuttal for you  Have fun. You have to admire his diligence in study and debate. I doubt most trinitarians can exegete their position as well as he does oneness. Prayers for you.


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## WaywardNowHome

One question I would have for Modalists is: What about the baptism of Jesus Christ? At that moment, the Holy Spirit descends upon Christ and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

How does the Modalist explain the simultaneous interaction of all 3 Persons?


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## Prufrock

Jeff, I'm sure you are far able to explain this to him than I am, but it sounds like one of his root problems is importing a modern, psychological notion of personhood into the doctrine of the Trinity. In modern language, we use "person" for an individual center of consciousness, so to speak, which makes it difficult to see how a person is not an individual being. I would explain to him (as you probably already have) how "person" was traditionally understood in the old formulations, and discuss the relationship of the essence to the persons -- how each person contains (though not exhaustively) the whole of the single numerical divine essence, and that each person is a different mode (intrinsic and real, not extrinsic and mental as taught by the modalists) of the divine essence. He needs to see that we really are speaking of one, individual, numerical being, and that an infinite essence is capable of things finite essences cannot handle -- such as subsisting in multiple supposita.


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