# Is this a reliable paedo view?



## Brian (Sep 23, 2005)

Over at the Reformation 21 blog (blog of the ACE), Rick Phillips posted on the conversion of his son. However, I'm more interested on what you think about his thoughts leading up to that wonderful story.


> I am on record as holding the view that the children of believers are not automatically saved. We should believingly employ all the means of grace for our children´s salvation, with holy boldness and confidence in God´s grace. But our children nonetheless do not take personal possession of the eternal blessings of the covenant of grace until they have a personal faith in Jesus Christ. Neither birth nor baptism secure them salvation, any more than did Ishmael´s birth and circumcision. For our children, as for ourselves, salvation occurs through a personal faith in Christ that involves knowledge, assent, and trust.
> 
> For holding this view I have several times been called a "œBaptist" (the most pejorative word possible in some circles "“ actually, what they mean is that I am an "œEvangelical," which is true) despite the card I received yesterday from a couple in our church thanking me for baptizing their new baby. Moreover, it is presumed that people like me treat our children as "œlittle heathens" until we have manufactured some crisis experience that will permit us to tell all our friends that little Johnny "œhas gotten saved". Really, I don´t know what church they saw such things in, but I´m glad I never went to it. All my children are covenant children who derive vast benefits from God´s covenant love for our family. To inherit all the benefits of the covenant of grace "“ including the eternal ones "“ they must come to personal, saving faith, which I cannot manufacture but which I trust God will do through the ordinary means of grace.



So, for those who are furiously trying to figure out credo-/paedo-, and for those who are experts, how does he rank? Would the Presbyterians on the board claim him? Pastor Way et al, how is his theology (does he inconsistently baptize babies)? Inquiring minds want to know.

Here is the link for the article.

For the Lamb,
BRIAN

[Edited on 9-23-2005 by Brian]


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## wsw201 (Sep 23, 2005)

He is right on the money.


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## Ianterrell (Sep 23, 2005)




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## SolaScriptura (Sep 23, 2005)

I agree with him. He's biblical.


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## biblelighthouse (Sep 23, 2005)

Sounds good to me.


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## Romans922 (Sep 23, 2005)

if he would say that children of covenant believers are saved, he would (i think) be someone who believes in FV. For we know that a person is saved by grace through faith.


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## Augusta (Sep 23, 2005)

Right on!


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## fredtgreco (Sep 23, 2005)

How horribly Greek and Baptistic of him!


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## AdamM (Sep 23, 2005)

I continue to be impressed by Pastor Phillips. It really is an encouragement to have men like him in the PCA.


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## Steve Owen (Sep 25, 2005)

> I am on record as holding the view that the children of believers are not automatically saved. We should believingly employ all the means of grace for our children´s salvation, with holy boldness and confidence in God´s grace. But our children nonetheless do not take personal possession of the eternal blessings of the covenant of grace until they have a personal faith in Jesus Christ. Neither birth nor baptism secure them salvation, any more than did Ishmael´s birth and circumcision. For our children, as for ourselves, salvation occurs through a personal faith in Christ that involves knowledge, assent, and trust.



I am delighted to read the above and even more delighted that so many brethren here go along with it. There is actually nothing in what is written above that I would disagree with. I voted No. 4, but I would stress my view that his theology is *getting* better. It isn't right yet.

There is no doubt that very young children can be convicted of their sinful condition and come to faith. There are several elderly people in my congregation who have loved the Lord ever since they can remember. A crisis conversion in adolescence is not a necessity. However, care needs to be exercised because little children will often say what they think their parents want to hear. 

James Haldane wrote a very touching account of the life, conversion and death (aged six) of his daughter, Catherine. An extract can be found in _The Lives of Robert and James Haldane_ published by Banner of Truth.

However, it is when Pastor Phillips continues:-


> Moreover, it is presumed that people like me treat our children as "œlittle heathens" until we have manufactured some crisis experience that will permit us to tell all our friends that little Johnny "œhas gotten saved". Really, I don´t know what church they saw such things in, but I´m glad I never went to it. All my children are covenant children who derive vast benefits from God´s covenant love for our family.



that I am left wondering what third realm he thinks his children are in. They are either saved or they are lost, and to be *'Not far from the Kingdom of God' * (Mark 12:34 ) is still to be outside it. The vast majority of Junior Sunday School material, including some written by Baptists, seems to make the deadly assumption that the children of believers are saved. In the words of the song, 'It ain't necessarily so!' and water applied to the outside of their bodies does not bring them one inch closer to salvation. The washing that saves is internal, not external (Matt 23:25-26; 1Peter 3:21 ).

Grace & Peace,

Martin

[Edited on 9-25-2005 by Martin Marprelate]


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## Brian (Sep 25, 2005)

*PR or PE*

Based solely from his remarks above, is it possible to tell if he is presumptive election or presumptive regeneration? If so, which?

If it is not possible tell, help this former Armini-Dispensational-evangellyfish know what else would need be said to get a better grasp of the guy.

Thanks in advance!

For the Lord of the Earth, blessed be His Name,
BRIAN


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## Steve Owen (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Brian_
> Based solely from his remarks above, is it possible to tell if he is presumptive election or presumptive regeneration? If so, which?


Well, he doesn't seem to me to be either. He seems to be *P.D.* (Presumptive degeneracy) and *H.E.* (Hopeful election) which pretty much sums up my own position. 

Martin


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 26, 2005)

I would suggest that Pastor Rick is neither.


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## Brian (Sep 26, 2005)

*Clarifications*

So, just to clarify...

If he is probably neither (thanks Scott), what language would be necessary to move into either camp? What things are typically said that signify one group or the other? Or perhaps, I am talking about apples and oranges. Perhaps in all actuality his comments are not directed towards that discussion. If so, please let me know, so that I can quit 

Second, how is it that so many Presbyterian's and Martin can agree with so much of what is said. Wherein lies the disagreement?


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## Brian (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> How horribly Greek and Baptistic of him!



?!?
We need a Gnostic/Baptistic smiley.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Brian_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



That would be  =


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## Pilgrim (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> He is right on the money.


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## Brian (Sep 26, 2005)

Who voted "Baptist in paedo clothing" and "other."

Or, if you don't want to say, what reasons are there for thinking this from what he said?

For the King of Glory,
BRIAN


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## fredtgreco (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Brian_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Just to clarify -- my original post was sarcasm.


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## pastorway (Sep 27, 2005)

and funny too, Fred!

This is a great quote - I am glad to read it! And I second all that Martin has posted. 

It is critical to understand that our children, while having all the benefits of being in a Christian home, are still born totally depraved and in need of the gospel! We simply cannot assume or presume that they are regenerate, and I am glad to hear what Pastor Phillips is saying. What he offers in this regard is simply Biblical! It is, as others have noted, "right on the money."

Often those who push Presumptive Regeneration _almost_ sound like Baptists - they baptize their children because they believe them to already be regenerate. That is why Baptists baptize people!!

It is funny though the lines that we draw and the way we use labels. I preached a sermon recently on family worship that one person said sounded "Presbyterian"! HA. All because I was presenting a strong Biblical view of the Christian home. This reiterates the point that is often missed on this board - Baptists and Presbyterians do have a lot in common!!

Phillip



[Edited on 9-27-05 by pastorway]


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## Pilgrim (Sep 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Brian_
> ...



I thought so, Fred, but since I'm new to the list, I'm thankful for the clarification. 

Speaking of gnosticism, I had a paedocommunion advocate accuse the WLC of gnosticism (specifically Q. 177) when I pointed out that it precluded the practice! I suppose to him, gnosticism=knowledge of the truth.


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## Scott Bushey (Sep 27, 2005)

> It is critical to understand that our children, while having all the benefits of being in a Christian home, are still born totally depraved and in need of the gospel!



I know of no PR/PE that would argue w/ that.




> We simply cannot assume or presume that they are regenerate



Matter of opinion.........



> Often those who push Presumptive Regeneration _almost_ sound like Baptists - they baptize their children because they believe them to already be regenerate. That is why Baptists baptize people!!



Regeneration and conversion are two entirely different things. Seeds need water, sun, nurturing, etc.



> Baptists and Presbyterians do have a lot in common!!



We do. The things that unite us are the most important things, i.e. Christ and His Gospel of grace!


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