# Help



## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay, I confess, In spite of my dashing charm, incredible good looks, and vast stores of knowledge I have a terrible weakness: the improper use of reflexive pronouns in my presence is like Kryptonite in the room with Superman.

Yesterday I had a meeting with a client in which the progeny of the loins of my employer decided to attend. (He, the nepotistic ninny, is the world's smartest person, capable of doing anything with almost nothing. Einstein's spirit wanders the room behind him saying 'Mea culpa' over and over.) Genius boy decided that he needed to make the presentation. (Yep, the one I've been working on for six weeks.) I bravely tried to explain to him that he really didn't have all the data down and could look foolish if they asked any questions. He forged on ahead. 

During the entire presentation he used the reflexive pronouns, 'myself' and 'ourselves', as objective pronouns, and even nominatives over and over and over and . . . I really couldn't make any sense out of what he was trying to do. I tried to concentrate on what he was saying, knowing that I would have to bail him out when they began to ask questions. My mind was in tatters. My strength was failing. I was fearful for my life. (This brainchild graduated from college with a 3.78 supposedly.)

Thankfully the assault upon the English language ceased. The client, whom I know well, looked at me with a quizzical expression. Genius boy, closed his laptop, took a seat with a look of smug satisfaction and stated, 'As you can see . . .' I began to weaken again immediately. He was recapping his presentation! Sweat broke out upon my brow. I began to look for an exit. 

I was only saved by the client interrupting him, 'Well, Lawrence has always taken care of us. I'm sure he can sort this out. Lawrence, can you step to my office for a minute?' So, we retired to his office. He laughed at the idiocy of the 'boy wonder' (his name). He said that it was obvious to him that he was an owner's son. He asked if he was correct. I affirmed his suspicions graciously.

As it turns out, the client is an English major as well.

So, do your part to make the world a safer place and to elevate your position in the eyes of others: study, or relearn if necessary, the basics of grammar.

And, pray that I will be relieved of this daily assault. I can feel myself weakening.


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## Hamalas (Feb 17, 2009)

Haha, thanks for sharing. So what do you do for a living Lawrence?


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## BobVigneault (Feb 17, 2009)

A tragic tale Lawrence. I am so sorry for the crucible you find yourself in. I thought I had problems. 

Last night at the deacon's meeting, the president of the deacons turned to me (the treasurer) and said, "I'll let you know to who you should write the check". I immediately corrected with 'to whom' and then apologized profusely. I couldn't help myself. Fortunately he took it well and kept on going. 

Help ME brother. When I'm quoting as I did above, does the sentence end with the closed quote or with a period?
"write the check". (or) "write the check." ?

Feel free to correct my grammar anytime, I want to be your disciple.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

Bob, you crack me up! I've done the same thing more than once. I really try to not correct people. But, hey, my father was an English professor. I can't help it. It really is a hoot when our extended family gets together. The humour is so dry you you must hydrate.

Here you go Bob:

Rule 1. Periods and commas always go inside quotation marks, even inside single quotes.
Examples: The sign changed from "Walk," to "Don't Walk," to "Walk" again within 30 seconds.
She said, "Hurry up."
She said, "He said, 'Hurry up.'"

Rule 2. The placement of question marks with quotes follows logic. If a question is in quotation marks, the question mark should be placed inside the quotation marks.
Examples: She asked, "Will you still be my friend?"
Do you agree with the saying, "All's fair in love and war"?
Here the question is outside the quote.
NOTE: Only one ending punctuation mark is used with quotation marks. Also, the stronger punctuation mark wins. Therefore, no period after war is used.

Rule 3. When you have a question outside quoted material AND inside quoted material, use only one question mark and place it inside the
quotation mark.
Example: Did she say, "May I go?"

Rule 4. Use single quotation marks for quotes within quotes. Note that the period goes inside all quote marks.
Example: He said, "Danea said, 'Do not treat me that way.'"

Rule 5. Use quotation marks to set off a direct quotation only.
Examples: "When will you be here?" he asked.
He asked when you will be there.

Rule 6. Do not use quotation marks with quoted material that is more than three lines in length. See Colons, Rule 5, for style guidance with longer quotes.

Rule 7. When you are quoting something that has a spelling or grammar mistake or presents material in a confusing way, insert the term sic in italics and enclose it in brackets. Sic means, "This is the way the original
material was."
Example: She wrote, "I would rather die then [sic] be seen wearing the same outfit as my sister."
Should be than, not then.

Ben, my day job is an operations manager for a waste management company. In more ways than one, it's a trashy business.


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## OPC'n (Feb 17, 2009)

> Lawrence, can you step to my office for a minute.



Isn't it *into* my office?


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## JonathanHunt (Feb 17, 2009)

BobVigneault said:


> "write the check". (or) "write the check." ?
> 
> .



Bawb, my dear fellow, it is spelled 'cheque'.


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## Hamalas (Feb 17, 2009)

> Feel free to correct my grammar anytime, I want to be your disciple.


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## TimV (Feb 17, 2009)

> The humour is so dry *you you* must hydrate.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

sjonee said:


> > Lawrence, can you step to my office for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it *into* my office?




Actually, that is an idiomatic phrase around here.

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 09:51:25 EST-----



TimV said:


> > The humour is so dry *you you* must hydrate.



That's what I get for trying to triple task at work!


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## Scottish Lass (Feb 17, 2009)

My English degree (and MLA handbook) concurs with Lawrence!


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## Wannabee (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for sharing Lawrence. My grammar is pretty good, but it's mostly intuitive. I suppose it's from reading a lot. I can't point to rules very well though. This is good on one hand, because I can adapt easily. On the other hand, when something sounds wrong I can't pick out why. And, I can be pulled into local abuses easily, if I don't catch it right away. I've noticed that I can fight it off if I understand the rules. But when I don't, then I succumb.

Around here plurals and singulars seem to have little bearing, especially in verbs of being. "Are," "were," "am," "is" and "was" can be mixed, matched, abused and tossed around in such a manner as to render any distinction useless. "They was fishing the other day..." "Them is the best tasting fish I've ever had." Everything around here has to do with fish, or hunting, so those examples are very applicable. 

But I never figured out "whom." Is it the direct object?

And, yes, please feel free to correct my grammar as well. I strive to keep it between the lines, but my ignorance of rules seems to be catching up with me.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 17, 2009)

Thank you sensai, I mean Lawrence.

Jonathan, I love you but we fought a war so we wouldn't have to write 'cheque', 'centre', 'flavour', 'apothecary' or have to go to the 'loo'. Hugs and kisses though.




JonathanHunt said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > "write the check". (or) "write the check." ?
> ...


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## JBaldwin (Feb 17, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > > Lawrence, can you step to my office for a minute.
> ...



And these examples make the point I wanted to make. My brain and my fingers do not operate at the same speed. I am stickler for grammar, but when it comes to putting on paper, the result is questionable. 

 on the OP!


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## JonathanHunt (Feb 17, 2009)

BobVigneault said:


> Thank you sensai, I mean Lawrence.
> 
> Jonathan, I love you but we fought a war so we wouldn't have to write 'cheque', 'centre', 'flavour', 'apothecary' or have to go to the 'loo'. Hugs and kisses though.
> 
> ...



Well Lawrence can't have been praying attention because he still spells 'Saviour' and 'Flavour' correctly... to name but two 

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 10:11:34 EST-----

And besides, what is wrong with going to the 'loo'?

You guys go to 'restrooms' but you don't sleep in there. Do you? Or is that too much detail?


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## TimV (Feb 17, 2009)

> Or is that too much detail?



Is it a pacifier or a dummy? But a dummy of what?


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## BobVigneault (Feb 17, 2009)

We don't sleep but we do rest.

Yesterday we had lunch at a Pizza Hut and I had to take my 5 year old to the bathroom (restroom, loo, little boy's powder room). He was doing his chore while I waited and he commented, "It smells pretty good in here." I answered, 'Well, it doesn't smell bad." He said, "It smells good.... but I wouldn't want to sleep in here, I'd rather sleep in our bathroom at home."

So there you go.




JonathanHunt said:


> You guys go to 'restrooms' but you don't sleep in there. Do you? Or is that too much detail?


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## Zenas (Feb 17, 2009)

What's a reflexive pronoun?


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

JonathanHunt said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you sensai, I mean Lawrence.
> ...



Actually, real Sons of the South still use Oxford spelling. The change in the orthography of Southern spelling was a Yankee endeavour to exterminate our distinctive culture. It began with Noah Webster.

And, I don't 'Go to the restroom.' Neither do I 'go to the loo.' I use the head!


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 17, 2009)

Here's one that grates on my ears.

"Anyways" instead of "anyway."

Anyway means "anyhow" or "in any case." 

"Anyways" must be a strictly colloquial expression, and it is as ungrammatical in written English as "anyhows."

Anyway, I hope you get my point.


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## Zenas (Feb 17, 2009)

One thing that gets on my nerves:

"How are you doing?"

"I'm doing good."

*I *always reply "I am well." I detest beign surrounded by such vulgar peons.


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## OPC'n (Feb 17, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> Here's one that grates on my ears.
> 
> "Anyways" instead of "anyway."
> 
> ...



That's cuz it's southern!


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 17, 2009)

sjonee said:


> Gomarus said:
> 
> 
> > Here's one that grates on my ears.
> ...



Is it southern? Which do youse guys use?


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## Marrow Man (Feb 17, 2009)

sjonee said:


> Gomarus said:
> 
> 
> > Here's one that grates on my ears.
> ...



Hey, don't be pickin' on southerners!

Ya'll all know that everybody in the world spoke "southern" before that sad day in Babel...


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## OPC'n (Feb 17, 2009)

No, no! I'm a Yankee! My mom and her family are southern and they put "s" on EVERYTHING...so it's anyways or walmarts or j.c pennys ....just keep going and you get the idea. Also, they make up a lot of words or use the same word for different things! It's all a different language really!


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## Ivan (Feb 17, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> > Feel free to correct my grammar anytime, I want to be your disciple.



I want to be your disciple also.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

sjonee said:


> No, no! I'm a Yankee! My mom and her family are southern and they put "s" on EVERYTHING...so it's anyways or walmarts or j.c pennys ....just keep going and you get the idea. Also, they make up a lot of words or use the same word for different things! It's all a different language really!



That's odd. The only people that I have ever heard use 'anyways' are from the Midwest. I don't think I've ever heard anyone from the South use that unless they have been in the Midwest. Re: the 's' on Wal-Mart and J.C. Penny. That is actually a possessive you are hearing. It is common in some regions of the South and is a carry over from the 'mom and pop' store days. 'Let's all go to Smith's and buy a coke.' Today, it gets used for most stores in some regions.

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 10:40:44 EST-----



Ivan said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> > > Feel free to correct my grammar anytime, I want to be your disciple.
> ...



Deny yourselves, take up either your Little, Brown Handbook or MLA, and follow me. . .


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## OPC'n (Feb 17, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > No, no! I'm a Yankee! My mom and her family are southern and they put "s" on EVERYTHING...so it's anyways or walmarts or j.c pennys ....just keep going and you get the idea. Also, they make up a lot of words or use the same word for different things! It's all a different language really!
> ...



Ok, I'm all done! I'm getting corrected by the teacher waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much! Nighty, night!


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## Ivan (Feb 17, 2009)

Zenas said:


> One thing that gets on my nerves:
> 
> "How are you doing?"
> 
> ...




You could ask, "What good have you done?"


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2009)

Zenas said:


> One thing that gets on my nerves:
> 
> "How are you doing?"
> 
> ...



Come, now. We all make mistakes now and then.



sjonee said:


> No, no! I'm a Yankee! My mom and her family are southern and they put "s" on EVERYTHING...so it's anyways or walmarts or j.c pennys ....just keep going and you get the idea. Also, they make up a lot of words or use the same word for different things! It's all a different language really!



Hey! I say "JC Penney's." I would never say, "Let's go to JC Penney." That sounds soooooooooo weird and wrong. 
But I'd only say Walmarts as a joke. Maybe b/c JC Penney is someone's name, where a mart isn't.


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## Denton Elliott (Feb 17, 2009)

Ivan said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > One thing that gets on my nerves:
> ...



This is a really funny post thanks!

Also, you could state, "...No one is good except God alone." (ala Mark 10:18)


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## JBaldwin (Feb 17, 2009)

Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted." 

Is this failure to use the two little words "to be" laziness, ignorance or a new form of grammar?


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted."
> 
> Is this failure to use the two little words "to be" laziness, ignorance or a new form of grammar?



It is laziness. In truth rules of grammar are fixed. I know, I know that is not the theme of the day in the halls of English departments today, but it is a fact. In the past twenty years the nihilism that has invaded the study and practice of grammar has led to a generation of 'educated' people who cannot communicate well. 

I recently read a paper in which an English Prof. was defending the fact that a sentence, 'The dog bit the Postman.' did not of necessity mean that a member of the canine species affixed his teeth to a body part of an employee of the Postal Service. And, he was deadly serious. He extrapolated that the sentence had no meaning in and of itself and that the words meant whatever the author intended. Thus, the sentence actually meant something that I will not write on this board because it is so vile.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 17, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted."
> ...



Well, that explains a lot. I know this may be a little off topic, but if this is the way people are thinking about language today, it explains why Congress is walking all over the Consititution. They have decided it means whatever they want it to mean. And our president? He say one thing and mean completely the opposite. No wonder things are in such a mess.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 17, 2009)

JonathanHunt said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > "write the check". (or) "write the check." ?
> ...




Jonathan, I'm surprised you didn't take issue with the American rule for punctuation, seeing that the English rule only includes punctuation within the quotation marks if it is in fact in the quoted text.


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## etexas (Feb 17, 2009)

Loo!


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 17, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> Bob, you crack me up!



Lawrence,

Try redoing the word order of this sentence so that you don't end it with a preposition. I've done it in my mind and I find it quite humorous.


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## Leslie (Feb 17, 2009)

What should a married woman do about a husband who insists on saying, "Me and John went to town?" Should I correct him now, after 40+ years of marriage? His grammar, other than "Me and--" is not bad. He's a PhD (chemistry). In Ethiopia it doesn't matter, but in an educated social setting it's awful. Have you any suggestions as to how to soften the blow?


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 17, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted."
> 
> Is this failure to use the two little words "to be" laziness, ignorance or a new form of grammar?



I've never heard that in my life.


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted."
> 
> Is this failure to use the two little words "to be" laziness, ignorance or a new form of grammar?



That is colloquial grammar. I'm from Western PA, and we *only* say, "The car needs fixed." It is not laziness or ignorance, though perhaps it was first used because of such. Today, it is *the* way to say that the car is broken and is in need of repair, in that region.


LawrenceU said:


> It is laziness. In truth rules of grammar are fixed. I know, I know that is not the theme of the day in the halls of English departments today, but it is a fact. In the past twenty years the nihilism that has invaded the study and practice of grammar has led to a generation of 'educated' people who cannot communicate well.
> 
> I recently read a paper in which an English Prof. was defending the fact that a sentence, 'The dog bit the Postman.' did not of necessity mean that a member of the canine species affixed his teeth to a body part of an employee of the Postal Service. And, he was deadly serious. He extrapolated that the sentence had no meaning in and of itself and that the words meant whatever the author intended. Thus, the sentence actually meant something that I will not write on this board because it is so vile.




Grammar is most certainly NOT fixed. Strunk and White wrote what they saw commonly practiced, not what they decided was proper.
I'm pretty sure we've had the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument here before. 
I believe that God ordained language to be fluid, perhaps only since the fall of the tower of Babel. Maybe we read from scripture that prior to then, language was static, and thus all people shared a common language and probably a common grammar. But since we no longer speak the language that man spoke at creation, I do not think we can claim that it is supposed to be one way. If the rules of grammar are truly fixed, when did they become so? Was language wrong up until now, and the rules we have now are finally the right ones? Or are the archaic rules the ones that are fixed, and thus they are the rules we need to get back to? 

We have language in order to communicate ideas with others. 
If you know what I mean when I say, "I'm doin' good," then I have communicated successfully. The problem is, some people may genuinely think that when I say, "I'm doin' good," I mean that I am doing some good deed. In that case, I have not communicated successfully. But to the majority of people to whom I speak, it will be clear that I mean that things are going well for me, or that I am happy, or I am fine, etc...
If my meaning IS correctly understood, then why exactly is the way I've expressed it incorrect? 

I think your only obligation when speaking to someone is to be certain that what you say will be rightly understood by the person(s) you are saying it to. 
Therefore, I think studying grammar is good because it helps us know what our audience will understand. 

However, some audiences can understand more than others. For instance, my mom, who is not college educated, would understand what someone means when he says, "I am doin' good." On the other hand, someone else may even have a doctorate degree, yet he will *not* understand that the person is in no way claiming to have done good deeds. 
Therefore, I do admit that the person answering, "I am doing good," will have to know his audience before he answers like so, because confusion may erupt, and I agree that confusion is NOT the goal of language. 



JBaldwin said:


> Well, that explains a lot. I know this may be a little off topic, but if this is the way people are thinking about language today, it explains why Congress is walking all over the Consititution. They have decided it means whatever they want it to mean. And our president? He say one thing and mean completely the opposite. No wonder things are in such a mess.



I disagree. I think those people walking all over the Constitution do not believe that the meaning of the document itself is static. I think they see it as a living and breathing document that should rightly change with the times. Case in point: I am a person who thinks language is fluid, (I mean, we all *know* that to some extent, b/c none of us are demanding that we speak Old English) and yet I firmly believe that we should uphold the constitution. 

Sorry if I'm being a bull dog♥ Although I am a former English major/former English teacher _who married_ a former English major/current English teacher, somehow my pet peeve is still English majors. 
 kidding, Lawrence. P.S. I like your new avatar!


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## VictorBravo (Feb 17, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > Here's one that gets me. "My car needs fixed." "My dog needs washed." "The house needs painted."
> ...



Ah, but in American eastern mountain country (populated by Scots), it is common for "need" to be used as an auxilliary verb, and then you follow with a participle (either past or present). It's also not unusual in the UK.

When I was in Plymouth England years ago, I often heard things like "your clothes need washing" or "you need your hair cut."


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > Bob, you crack me up!
> ...



 That sentence is a great example of idiomatic speech that is perfectly acceptable, even though it violates a rule of grammar.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 17, 2009)

Zenas said:


> What's a reflexive pronoun?



Serious? *Yourself* doesn't know what a reflexive pronoun is?

*Myself* could tell you, but then *myself* would be showing off. 

Reflexive pronouns are pronouns that refer to something already mentioned. They have proper usage, as in:

"I gave myself a break." Subject is I, object is myself.

But it is never used as the subject, and it isn't used as an object if it isn't "reflecting" someone or thing already mentioned.

Bad: "He gave the money to Joe and myself." (Because "myself" doesn't reflect anything.)

OK: "He gave the money to Joe and me, and I used my share to buy myself a book."

But even if OK, it is often superfluous. Use sparingly.

End of lesson.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah. I'd say, my car needs fixin'. Or, better yet, here in Texas, I'm _fixin'_ to go to the store.  Or, Let's _fix_ a sandwich. haha!


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

Let me be clear. I believe that grammar rules need to be taught and that there are fixtures in grammar. The parts of speech are fixed. Style, which is what Strunk and White addressed is another matter. Style changes. Idiom exists. Idiomatic speech is wonderful and is part of the cultural milieu that God has give to us. But, structures are necessary in a language in order for communication to take place.

Add to that the fact that there various situations in which we speak and write and the topic becomes even more interesting. I am a Southerner. My speech patterns are distinctly Southern. I a Southerner who is of Scottish and Cherokee extraction. Those influences shape my speech patterns and how I write. When I am at the feed store I don't speak like I write. When I write a letter to a friend I don't write in the same manner in which I do when writing a doctrinal paper. When I preach I don't use the same diction and idiom as I do at the feed store. Even the grammatical structures change. But, educated people should be able to know the rules and when they are violated. 

I have been teaching a younger man. He has a college degree in a field that required extensive reading and research. I loaned him a volume on the nature of God that was written in the late 18th century. Its syntax is different, but not difficult. He had such a difficult time with the book that he could not read it. Frankly, I was surprised. When I began to enquire it became obvious; his lack of grammatical knowledge hindered his ability to comprehend the authour. I am more frequently running into this.

I'm not a grammar prude. Just ask anyone who sits with me for a while. I'm a laid back Southern Country Boy. But, I do think that folks should be taught well.


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## Augusta (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for that little lesson Vic. Our next lesson in Latin is on reflexive pronouns. Now I have a leg up.


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## LawrenceU (Feb 17, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> Yeah. I'd say, my car needs fixin'. Or, better yet, here in Texas, I'm _fixin'_ to go to the store.  Or, Let's _fix_ a sandwich. haha!



Yep.


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## he beholds (Feb 17, 2009)

Leslie said:


> What should a married woman do about a husband who insists on saying, "Me and John went to town?" Should I correct him now, after 40+ years of marriage? His grammar, other than "Me and--" is not bad. He's a PhD (chemistry). In Ethiopia it doesn't matter, but in an educated social setting it's awful. Have you any suggestions as to how to soften the blow?



If you cannot ignore it, I would try to teach him a way to remember which way to say it:
If you would say, "*I* went to town," then it would be, "John and *I* went to town." But if it would be, "Are you going with me?" then it would be, "Are you going with John and me?" 

Cover the other person's name and say the sentence. If you use, I, then use I, or if you use me, then use me. 

I know you know this, Leslie, but maybe your hubby needs an easy way to remember


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## Wannabee (Feb 17, 2009)

victorbravo said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > What's a reflexive pronoun?
> ...



Can't it also be used emphatically?

"I drew that up myself."

"Jesus, himself, taught the Sermon on the Mount."


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## VictorBravo (Feb 17, 2009)

Wannabee said:


> Can't it also be used emphatically?
> 
> "I drew that up myself."
> 
> "Jesus, himself, taught the Sermon on the Mount."



Yes, absolutely. As long as the subject isn't left out.


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## PresbyDane (Feb 17, 2009)

Me don`t not know `bout Y`all but this all talk, `bout gramma an stuff is gettin me sleepy


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## py3ak (Feb 17, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > LawrenceU said:
> ...



That particular rule, it seems to me, was a strategic regulation, and not an enunciation of a grammatical or logical fact: as such we are all free to ignore it and probably ought to do is the slightest pretext.


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