# Question for Sabbatarians



## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

I've heard it mentioned numerous times that Sabbatarians are disappointed in those churches that do not accept their Sabbatarian practices, as in the church doesn't make an effort to accommodate their keeping of the Sabbath.

I probably didn't do the best job summarizing that viewpoint, but hopefully you get the gist.

Can you please flesh out that line of thought? Are you talking about when you visit a church? What do you expect a church to do?


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

> *Tripel*
> What do you expect a church to do?



If they are a Confessional church, follow their confession. If not, to consider the claims of Scripture (see below):



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [34] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ISA 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
> [35] GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 1CO 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. ACT 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
> ...


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 14, 2009)

_Particularly as a visitor_:
I expect a congregation to show hospitality in the form of meals and fellowship. Table fellowship should be a no-brainer if I am invited to the fellowship of the Lord's Table.

_As a member of a local congregation_:
I expect the consistory/session to ordinarily call the congregation to worship twice during the Lord's Day. This helps to orient the day around the worship of God.

It is also much easier to observe the Sabbath when there is a culture of hospitality in the congregation. Households should share meals and fellowship during the day with other members of the congregation and visitors.

I also expect a congregation to hold me and my house accountable. The consistory should inquire about absence from the Lord's worship. I want to be able to go to my elders and minister with difficult questions about Sabbath observance for wise counsel. God's Law should be expounded so that I may be convicted of my sins and repent.

A faithful congregation should also provide for those who are financially suffering because of their observance of the 4th commandment.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> > *Tripel*
> > What do you expect a church to do?
> 
> 
> ...




Let's say the church is Confessional (which I believe mine is). Is that it?


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

Daniel,
From a practical standpoint, it would include things like not catering in a congregational meal (which requires others to work and/or miss worship) or paying nursery workers during gathering times on Sunday. I've seen both of these in practice. I would also hope folks would not pressure Sabbatarian families to eat out after Sunday worship, which I've also seen.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Dearly Bought said:


> _Particularly as a visitor_:
> I expect a congregation to show hospitality in the form of meals and fellowship. Table fellowship should be a no-brainer if I am invited to the fellowship of the Lord's Table.



But what does this actually look like? I'm trying to imagine what my church would need to do to meet this need. Does there have to be a meal provided after the service? Does there need to be an announcement each week that visiting Sabbatarians are invited to the pastor's home?

I more than certain that if a visitor approached our pastor and said they needed a place to eat, that person would be taken care of. But who's initiative is it?


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

Daniel,
We attempt to invite every visitor back to our home for lunch. Now, we're a smaller congregation than you, I suspect. Larger congregations that practice this often employ a few/several families willing to invite families. We don't always have folks who accept (for various reasons), but we've provided the opportunity and those who accept are grateful. 

Our most recent trio of out-of-state Gideons lunched with us and said they are rarely even invited out, much less to a home for lunch. We had a wonderful afternoon.


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > > *Tripel*
> ...



Your church is confessional.

The Presbyterian Church in America subscribes to the Westminster Standards (Confession of Faith, Larger and Shorter Catechisms).

Basically, the confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to require in relation to the Lord's Day:

1) advance preparation (getting out of the way ordinary tasks that would distract from worship such as getting gas, money from the teller, groceries, etc.)

2) abstaining from entertaining and recreating oneself (not playing sports, going to ball games, and not thinking or talking about them)

3) abstaining from work (and not thinking about or talking about your work)


This, in order to prioritize the worship of God, all day.

This, in order to cease from the ordinary pursuits of life in order to have focused time to worship God through His Word, prayer, sacraments, singing spiritual songs, fasting, taking religious oaths and vows (e.g. membership, baptism, officer, etc.).


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Dearly Bought said:
> 
> 
> > _Particularly as a visitor_:
> ...



I will approach a minister on my own initiative if needed. However, visitors should automatically be extended an invitation to meals by someone. This could be accomplished by a corporate meal after the services. This could also be accomplished by a rotating schedule of households hosting visitors for meals. On a more informal basis, the officers could simply agree to be aware of visitors' meal plans and extend invitations if other members of the congregation have not.


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## Zenas (Apr 14, 2009)

Nothing. I require nothing of my congregation or any other in order for me to observe the Sabbath other than an opportunity to worship God corporately. 

If I visited your church Daniel, and I have a few times, I would need nothing from you, your elders, or your congregation in order for me to observe the Sabbath in a faithful manner, other than an opportunity to worship God in corporate worship. 

I really don't understand what the hub-bub is about. Why does a Sabbatarian need something from the congregation in order to be a Sabbatarian?


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 14, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Nothing. I require nothing of my congregation or any other in order for me to observe the Sabbath other than an opportunity to worship God corporately.
> 
> If I visited your church Daniel, and I have a few times, I would need nothing from you, your elders, or your congregation in order for me to observe the Sabbath in a faithful manner, other than an opportunity to worship God in corporate worship.
> 
> I really don't understand what the hub-bub is about. Why does a Sabbatarian need something from the congregation in order to be a Sabbatarian?



I'm a weak and sinful man who needs the strength of the Body of Christ to begin this pitifully small obedience in this life.


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Not sure I fully understand all the implications of this passage 
Heb 13:1-3

Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. 3 Remember the prisoners as if chained with them — those who are mistreated — since you yourselves are in the body also. NKJV

But whatever it is I don't want to miss it. 

I think there should be a notice that visitors who do not have friends or relatives to eat with are welcome to contact the pastor or elders or deacons who have families who will desire to provide hospitality and meals for the Lord's day. 

Or an announcement or in our church we have a laminated shee tin the pews with basic info on our worship and fencing the table. It could be in there also. 

I usually call ahead and ask the pastor if there are some willing and could he set this up, someone to pick me up at the hotel and bring me to and from the worship and lunch. Unless I have already rented a car for the days I am there.

I have never been refused even where the minister has taken an exception and does not hold the Lord's day this strictly. I always let them know I am willing to pay for the gas for the family that carts me around and I especially let him know if there are poor families who would like to help out but are financially unable I would be willing to buy the food for the family that day if they will host me. 
I love to assist poor families to help me as I help them. 

Perhaps this comes from being in Mexico and Africa where our eating with them would be a burden.
Of course it is not neeeeded, But it should be the desire of other brothers and sisters to provide this. 
I love to get the chance to have visitors over on the Lord's day


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

> *Tripel*
> Question for Sabbatarians



It's understandable using a term like this.

One of the things that will also be helpful in understanding this is that keeping the fourth commandment is not a separate set of beliefs- it is a part of the whole moral law God commands all men to follow.

The Confessions (e.g. London Baptist and Westminster) summarize Scripture to teach all ten commandments, not isolating four, or any other.

So someone is no more a 'sabbatarian" by following the fourth commandment than a 'covetarian' by following the tenth commandment, they are only trying to faithfully represent and be obedient to the revealed will of God [through His Word].


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

We aren't Sabbatearians anyway. Sabbath is seventh. 
That was the OT Jewish admin of the 4th command
We are Firstitarians. 

We are keepers of the 4th command. Keepers of the Lord's day as it is in the New Testament


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott,
I agree with you. I don't like the term "Sabbatarian", and in other threads I have questioned its use. I only used it because many on here insist on calling themselves such, as if to say that the rest of us do not follow the 4th commandment.

I believe I DO follow the 4th commandment, even though I take exception to the WCF on this issue. My practice is definitely out of line with the WCF regarding the Sabbath, but I believe I am in line with Scripture.


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## Ex Nihilo (Apr 14, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Nothing. I require nothing of my congregation or any other in order for me to observe the Sabbath other than an opportunity to worship God corporately.
> 
> If I visited your church Daniel, and I have a few times, I would need nothing from you, your elders, or your congregation in order for me to observe the Sabbath in a faithful manner, other than an opportunity to worship God in corporate worship.
> 
> I really don't understand what the hub-bub is about. Why does a Sabbatarian need something from the congregation in order to be a Sabbatarian?



While I agree with you, Andrew, it is certainly helpful when I am invited to lunch. A lunch invitation removes all temptation to eat in the cafeteria or accept a non-Sabbatarian's invitation to go to brunch. But then, I like to spend Sunday afternoon reading, whether alone or in company, so it isn't difficult for me to figure out what to do with my day. I look forward to having time to read my Bible and other books without feeling that I should be reading a casebook! However, some Sabbatarians are more starved for company, and it is much more difficult to fellowship regularly with non-Sabbatarians, who may want to eat out or shop or something.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

Daniel,
I agree with the others-- I don't "need" these things from a congregation. But I might not make one my home that chooses commercial enterprise on Sunday. Because we don't want to put anyone else in a similar position, we offer hospitality. When Tim preaches elsewhere on Sunday (rare, but it happens), we lunch in the home of friends.


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## re4med (Apr 14, 2009)

> A faithful congregation should also provide for those who are financially suffering because of their observance of the 4th commandment.


 
I wonder how often this actually happens.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

I guess I'm not used to these churches where everyone goes to restaurants afterward and they invite visitors to go with them. While my church isn't making a special announcement to invite "Sabbatarians" to someone's home, there is a good amount of hospitality going on. My pastor is almost always having people over to his house on Sunday, as are many of the elders. If you make yourself known as a regular visitor, your chances are good to eventually end up in someone's home. 
As for out of town visitors, I don't see why you can't just call ahead of time. We'd bend over backwards to extend hospitality. But in a church of 400-500, it's kind of hard to pick out everyone who is a visitor and make sure they have a place to eat. In my opinion, the person visiting needs to take the initiative if they feel that strongly about it.

-----Added 4/14/2009 at 12:52:34 EST-----



re4med said:


> > A faithful congregation should also provide for those who are financially suffering because of their observance of the 4th commandment.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how often this actually happens.



I guess I'm naive. How are people financially suffering _because_ of the 4th commandment?


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 14, 2009)

re4med said:


> > A faithful congregation should also provide for those who are financially suffering because of their observance of the 4th commandment.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how often this actually happens.



Do you mean the provision by a congregation or the financial suffering?

In contemporary American society, it is becoming more and more difficult to refrain from work on Sundays. This is especially true for unskilled workers who don't have much to bargain with in the first place.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> But in a church of 400-500, it's kind of hard to pick out everyone who is a visitor and make sure they have a place to eat. In my opinion, the person visiting needs to take the initiative if they feel that strongly about it.
> 
> -----Added 4/14/2009 at 12:52:34 EST-----
> 
> ...



If your elders can't determine visitors from members, that may be a different problem than hospitality. 

Hospitality is to be extended, not requested, in my humble opinion.

Those who work jobs other than 9-5 M-F may have given up shifts on Sundays. When I worked retail, I could have made far more money, but I requested not to be on the schedule for Sundays. I wasn't trying to feed a family, but someone working retail these days could very well be trying to do just that.


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## Herald (Apr 14, 2009)

Some wonderful ideas have been expressed in this thread. Inviting visitors home for a meal should be widely practiced by all churches that love Christ. 

Back to the OP. At a minimum a church should not be antagonistic towards individuals who observe the Christian Sabbath. Respect their conviction. Those who observe the Sabbath should do so quitely, and without drawing attention to themselves. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men" comes to mind. If you are in the habit of honoring the Lord's Day, allow God to bring others into your path that you may instruct them gently. This especially true in churches that do not promote observing the Lord's Day. 

If I may add, those churches that do promote observance of the Lord's Day should be mindful not to bind the conscience of visitors who are not informed or convicted in that area. We are all in the process of learning and growing. Be aggressive in guarding the conscience of your brother.


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Scott,
> I agree with you. I don't like the term "Sabbatarian", and in other threads I have questioned its use. I only used it because many on here insist on calling themselves such, as if to say that the rest of us do not follow the 4th commandment.
> 
> I believe I DO follow the 4th commandment, even though I take exception to the WCF on this issue. My practice is definitely out of line with the WCF regarding the Sabbath, but I believe I am in line with Scripture.



Thanks.

The effects of the second part of what you are saying is, in our denomination, as a member, you are not required to have comprehensive knowledge of your doctrinal standards, far less vow agreement with every statement/proposition in them.

I've come to learn here on Puritan Board some reformed denominations would require such for membership, but our denomination, the PCA, does not require that for membership. It does require that for church officers, but not for members.

The membership vows include peaceably learning the church's doctrine. That is, humbly studying (not trying to create faction, defiance, or dissent) and learning the doctrinal standards.

Along those lines, I would commend to you the scripture proofs above (to the Westminster Confession) to see if what you now believe is in accordance with what God commands in His Word.

Maybe the Westminster Divines got this all wrong. Maybe the framers of the London Baptist Confession of Faith got it all wrong as well. But, we ought give serious consideration to their biblical basis in summarizing the doctrine of Scripture this way.

What does God require of us in "setting apart" the day to make it holy? Does he allow us to do, think about, talk about the sports, entertainment that amuses us, and our work issues on His day as long as we slip in one church service?

What does Scripture teach?


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Yes but all Christians are required to obey the 4th command. 
So how would you do this and have a job on the Lord's day, or support those who do?

It would also be a difficult situation for me if one invited me over for lunch them turned on a Professional football or other sports game on TV or wanted to go shopping on the way home. 

And Rather than just accept them as they are I would feel compelled to ask them if they believed they were obeying the 4th command. 

I would bear with this, but the courtesy for the visiting who keep the 4th Commandment would be to know the convictions of these people and respect them that day you are serving them 

Could we not tear ourselves away one day from these worldly things to serve a brother of stricter convictions? 

No demands on other just think 

Rom 12:10-13
10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. 
NKJV


Also Ex Nihilo won't read her case work on the Lord's day so she has 1/7 less time to do her school work and get good grades. This leaves her more work to do during the week and less time to go work to cover expenses. 

Fortunately God has all this planned out for His people so it is not an excuse ro an inconvenience. 
Only a chance for God to manifest his grace on us. 

So we may not prosper as much in this world as the wicked. So what? 
And we may by His grace prosper more.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> If your elders can't determine visitors from members, that may be a different problem than hospitality.


Our elders most certainly can determine visitors from members, but that is quite a different issue than tracking down the visitors each week. I'm not sure how it is at most churches, but our elders are not patrolling the pews or anything like that. We have people who are specifically looking for visitors each week, but it is still quite easy for someone to slip in and slip out unnoticed. That said, if a visitor makes their presence known, I'm quite certain they will receive hospitality.




Scottish Lass said:


> Hospitality is to be extended, not requested, in my humble opinion.



Certainly, but we're talking about different things. It's one thing to be hospitable; it's another to make sure that everyone has a place to eat lunch each Sunday.

-----Added 4/14/2009 at 02:57:04 EST-----



Scott1 said:


> I've come to learn here on Puritan Board some reformed denominations would require such for membership, but our denomination, the PCA, does not require that for membership. It does require that for church officers, but not for members.



Are you sure about that? I thought that church officers in the PCA could take exceptions to some of the WCF.



> The membership vows include peaceably learning the church's doctrine. That is, humbly studying (not trying to create faction, defiance, or dissent) and learning the doctrinal standards.



Right. It's one thing to learn and study the doctrine, but it's another to accept all of it as right. I feel like I understand what the WCF is saying regarding the Sabbath, but I just don't agree. I think the WCF as a whole is excellent, but is not always accurate.



> Along those lines, I would commend to you the scripture proofs above (to the Westminster Confession) to see if what you now believe is in accordance with what God commands in His Word.



I've read the proofs, and I just read through them again. I think the WCF takes the 4th commandment further than Scripture. 



> Maybe the Westminster Divines got this all wrong.



In this case, I think they did. In one sense, it's incredibly hard to bluntly say that seeing how they were much more wise and learned than my pea brain. But I still think they took it too far, based on Scripture. 
I know this is essentially heresy to many, but I don't think the Puritans or Westminster Divines lived in an exceptionally enlightening time or had some great source of wisdom that we don't have today. They were fallible. Wise, yes, but fallible.


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## Josiah (Apr 14, 2009)

When I first started attending a reformed church I was working weekends at a retail store. After learning about keeping the Lord's day I prayed for a while about my situation and marched up to my manager's office and *humbly* asked if he would allow me to not work on Sundays so that I could worship. He kindly obliged my request and after that any place I have worked for I have told them up front at the interview process that I am unavailable on Sundays and havnt had a difficulty since.


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Please see below



Tripel said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> > If your elders can't determine visitors from members, that may be a different problem than hospitality.
> ...



Yes, the Westminster Divines were fallible human beings. Many of them were church officers and accomplished theologians of their day, though. And yes, the Confessional standards are not infallible. Only Scripture is infallible.

But collectively, they were focused on defining the Christian faith from Scripture in the face of their own great persecution. The Westminster Confession has withstood centuries of scrutiny.

Many of us stand in amazement at how well, how precisely they summarize the doctrine of Scripture.


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> I've read the proofs, and I just read through them again. I think the WCF takes the 4th commandment further than Scripture.



So what would you say is minimally required? 

The other thing I think is interesting, if a minister takes and exception to some part of the Confession this does not mean all the elders in the church will or should. 

Therefore the elders may hold the church to things the minister may not. 

Of course I would suggest the elders stop employing minister who take exceptions. This would mean waiting a while until you find Confessional men but good. 
Then these non-Confessional men will not have jobs or pulpits until they submit and Conform to the desires of their brothers and the mind of the greater church rather than being able to be independent. 

They will not be able to breed more non-Confessional men and this way we restore the church; rather than allow it to repeat itself as happened to the Pres Church initially in the USA where we lost our buildings and seminaries to men who eventually became liberal.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> They will not be able to breed more non-Confessional men and this way we restore the church;



I'm a little concerned that your language here is serious. Is that right? 
"Breed more non-confessional men"????

This kind of language implies that the Confession is the ultimate authority.


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 14, 2009)

There are a few members here who attend Churches that are open all day and evening (example: 9am to 6 pm.) I find that to be a great idea, and causes no one to have to volunteer to open their home or worry that a visitor might be missed. I'm not a sabbatarian and this idea appeals to me greatly yet I've spoken to and heard from strict sabbatarians who don't like the idea...odd (in my opinion)


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

Daniel,
If visitors are deliberately trying to slip in and out, they're not looking for an invitation to lunch, I imagine. You say you have folks available to engage visitors; they could simply extend the invitation on behalf of their family or the families who have offered to prepare a meal for guests. 

We get less than fifty percent of our visitors who accept the invitation. But we've extended the hospitality, which is our responsibility, not that of our guests. 

If your heart isn't it, it isn't hospitality--it's a duty, and people can sense the difference.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> So what would you say is minimally required?



I'm not sure I can give you a simple answer to that. The day is to be set apart, and clearly it is not a day for work. The minimal requirements are what is laid out in scripture. Nothing more. 

I know it's popular on PB to come up with a list of what is and what is not allowed, but I don't think the Sabbath is that simple. 

The pieces about our words and thoughts cannot be about work or recreation is, in my opinion, extra-biblical. As well as the whole of the day being in public and private worship.


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## Ex Nihilo (Apr 14, 2009)

ReformedWretch said:


> There are a few members here who attend Churches that are open all day and evening (example: 9am to 6 pm.) I find that to be a great idea, and causes no one to have to volunteer to open their home or worry that a visitor might be missed. I'm not a sabbatarian and this idea appeals to me greatly yet I've spoken to and heard *from strict sabbatarians who don't like the idea...odd (in my opinion)*



Well, nine hours of socializing is exhausting for someone who is even mildly introverted. Maybe some people feel that having church _all day_ makes it difficult to rest. Also, for people who value having several free hours to study the Bible alone, it is a little long. I'm not sure this is a great argument; it's one I would make, but I think it may be selfish preference. On the other hand, I think it's difficult for church friends to be together and focus entirely on God, so maybe there is a legitimate argument for some balance between public and private worship on the Lord's Day.


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 14, 2009)

Ex Nihilo said:


> ReformedWretch said:
> 
> 
> > There are a few members here who attend Churches that are open all day and evening (example: 9am to 6 pm.) I find that to be a great idea, and causes no one to have to volunteer to open their home or worry that a visitor might be missed. I'm not a sabbatarian and this idea appeals to me greatly yet I've spoken to and heard *from strict sabbatarians who don't like the idea...odd (in my opinion)*
> ...



I don't think it's wrong not to have an all day service like I mentioned, not at all, but in regard to sabbatarian issues/concerns I think it would make it easier, and more enjoyable (at least for me). It may be selfish preference because I could do the all day fellowship every single day if not for work.

I've often said to my wife that I could give up TV, the internet, etc. if I had any Christian friends who wanted to gather to discuss the bible, theology, and to pray, etc. Outside the PB I've never had a friend that would be interested in that, even Christian friends. Everyone is "too busy".


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > So what would you say is minimally required?
> ...



Well of course you can give us an immediate answer. You already told us you do believe in and keep the 4th command

I just asked how you do that. 
You say as in scripture, could you site some of those scriptures you follow that tell us how to keep the 4th? 


As for my comment on ministers being non-Confessional, no there were a group at Westminster who all signed on with no exceptions for the benefit of unity. 
I see no reason not to continue that. 

Again because we hold to the Confession as a proper explanation of scripture it does not mean we hold it equal to or above. 

But the whole point of the Confession was t have something to agree to not something to disagree to. 
How nonsensical.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> Daniel,
> If visitors are deliberately trying to slip in and out, they're not looking for an invitation to lunch, I imagine.



Exactly. I can't speak about every visitor that comes to our church, but if a visitor is _wanting_ to be noticed, he will be successful.

Invitations to lunch are wonderful, and I'm aware of a lot of that going on in our church. My point is that the church as a whole is not organizing it. We occasionally have visitor luncheons at the church, but that is about once a quarter. The number of times that we have "Sabbatarian" out-of-town visitors who have no place to eat lunch are very few, I imagine. Like I said before, if our church finds out that such people are coming, they will be accommodated. I just don't think it's necessary that a structure be put in place to ensure that each week each visitor is sought out and fed.

I almost forgot, we also have a continually-running Pastor's Class during the SS hour (which meets after worship) where visitors are invited to meet the Pastor, some of the elders, and learn about the church. That is how a lot of visitors get a lunch invite.


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## Scott1 (Apr 14, 2009)

> *ReformedWretch*
> I've often said to my wife that I could give up TV, the internet, etc. if I had any Christian friends who wanted to gather to discuss the bible, theology, and to pray, etc. Outside the PB I've never had a friend that would be interested in that, even Christian friends. Everyone is "too busy".



One thing that might be helpful is set a time for Bible reading at home on the Lord's Day.

Begin and end with prayer, you lead in reading and discussing the passage with your wife. If you have guests or neighbors nearby, invite them for that fixed time of Bible reading. If it's only you and your wife, that's okay. That's an example of "family worship" and God will bless your obedience.


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## Jon Peters (Apr 14, 2009)

During the period when I held to a strict Christian Sabbath position, I attended 3 OPC churches that were generally not of like conviction. I was never hindered in my observance, only encouraged. I found that most ministers and elders in these churches, strict Sabbatarian or not, observed the Lord's Day without undue interruptions from the world.


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## ww (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > So what would you say is minimally required?
> ...



 But once again I'm jaded by the dirty looks and looks of horror in a Sabbatarian congregation when I brought up the topic of my occupation on a particular occasion. This was years ago but I made a commitment to myself then and haven't changed since that I will NOT make this a Pharasaical or Legalistic endeavor. With that said it is the "Lord's Day" and as such I give as much attention to Worship, Fellowship, and Spiritual exercises as I am able to enjoy on a particular Sunday. I truly believe that is what Christ was trying to convey in the New Testament as He wanted to avoid making the Lord's Day something in which we as observers could boast in but rather enjoy for our Benefit. My


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

whitway said:


> But once again I'm jaded by the dirty looks and looks of horror in a Sabbatarian congregation when I brought up the topic of my occupation on a particular occasion. This was years ago but I made a commitment to myself then and haven't changed since that I will NOT make this a Pharasaical or Legalistic endeavor. With that said it is the "Lord's Day" and as such I give as much attention to Worship, Fellowship, and Spiritual exercises as I am able to enjoy on a particular Sunday. I truly believe that is what Christ was trying to convey in the New Testament as He wanted to avoid making the Lord's Day something in which we as observers could boast in but rather enjoy for our Benefit. My



Got any scripture to teach this or give you this liberty on the 4th or is it just a feeling you have? 
Is anything forbidden at all in the 4th?


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Well of course you can give us an immediate answer. You already told us you do believe in and keep the 4th command
> 
> I just asked how you do that.
> You say as in scripture, could you site some of those scriptures you follow that tell us how to keep the 4th?



But i'm not going to give a list of Do's and Don'ts. See Scott's post (#2 I think) where he references the WCF's proofs. Those are the texts I use as a guide.
As for what my Sabbath looks like, I set the day apart as holy. I plan ahead so that I don't have to do ordinary activities on Sunday, such as grocery shopping, filling up cars with gas, etc. I don't do work in the yard or work related to my job. My wife plans ahead with our meal so we can just pop something in the oven. I go to church with my family, then we come home and rest. Sometimes that "rest" is in the form of recreation. If it's a nice day we load up the kids in strollers, get the dog, and all go for a walk. Sometimes we'll spend the afternoon in the backyard, pushing my daughter in a swing or throwing a frisbee. My family spends more time together on Sunday than any day of the week, so it's a day for us to play catch up. We enjoy each other's company. We DON'T spend the whole day talking about theology. We talk about all kinds of things. We worship, and we rest. That is our Sabbath.

You asked for a minimal requirement, but I don't know what to tell you other than what Scripture says. I think my Sunday's are in line with the Sabbath guidelines.


> Again because we hold to the Confession as a proper explanation of scripture it does not mean we hold it equal to or above.



I just see it as problematic when people are more quick to quote the Confession than Scripture. 



> But the whole point of the Confession was t have something to agree to not something to disagree to.
> How nonsensical.



I get the point of a Confession. It's a great thing. I love the WCF, as it does an incredibly job summarizing the key points of our faith. But it's not perfect. I think a small percentage of it is extra-biblical, but I don't consider those things deal-breakers by any means.


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## ww (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> > But once again I'm jaded by the dirty looks and looks of horror in a Sabbatarian congregation when I brought up the topic of my occupation on a particular occasion. This was years ago but I made a commitment to myself then and haven't changed since that I will NOT make this a Pharasaical or Legalistic endeavor. With that said it is the "Lord's Day" and as such I give as much attention to Worship, Fellowship, and Spiritual exercises as I am able to enjoy on a particular Sunday. I truly believe that is what Christ was trying to convey in the New Testament as He wanted to avoid making the Lord's Day something in which we as observers could boast in but rather enjoy for our Benefit. My
> ...




What Liberty are you referring to?


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > You say as in scripture, could you site some of those scriptures you follow that tell us how to keep the 4th?
> ...



Then do you believe this scripture is not one you would use to guide you how to keep the 4th

Isa 58:13-14
3 "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
*From doing your pleasure* on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the LORD honorable,
And shall honor Him, *not doing your own ways,*
*Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words, *
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;
NKJV

Also funny you complain some use Confession quicker than scripture yet you site no scripture for your obedience. But if you check mine I use scripture far more than Confession


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Then do you believe this scripture is not one you would use to guide you how to keep the 4th
> 
> Isa 58:13-14
> 3 "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
> ...



This scripture guides as well. This passage was listed earlier in the thread by Scott as a WCF proof. 

I think to understand this passage we need to determine what "your pleasure" refers to. Question: Do you take pleasure in the worship of God? I would imagine you do. I ask that question because I don't think "your pleasure" necessarily refers to everything that you and I enjoy. 
Earlier in the chapter (vs 3-4) it draws a connection between "your pleasure" and quarreling, fighting, and oppressing. I think this is what the passage is getting at. I think it is speaking against defiling the Lord's day with our sinful ways.



> Also funny you complain some use Confession quicker than scripture yet you site no scripture for your obedience. But if you check mine I use scripture far more than Confession



I don't see the humor. I pointed to Scott's earlier post where he referenced the WCF proofs. That's a whole bunch of Scripture. I guess I could have copied and pasted it into my own post, but I thought it'd be easier just to point to where it was already listed.


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## Zenas (Apr 14, 2009)

Daniel, 

This is not a question of what your pleasure is, but what is the converse of your pleasure, namely God's pleasure. It seems to me its implied you should cease doing as you please and then do as God pleases.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Daniel,
> 
> This is not a question of what your pleasure is, but what is the converse of your pleasure, namely God's pleasure. It seems to me its implied you should cease doing as you please and then do as God pleases.



So is that different than any other day? Is it only 1 day a week that we should do as God pleases?


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel,
> ...



No, the only possible distinction is that we do not do our pleasure and we only worship God and do that which is distinctively Holy or set apart for God's special worship. 

Else it would be no different than any day and thus meaningless. 

So the meaning is obvious. I think you are smart enough to see this, maybe you just don't want to admit it. 

If it is to be set apart as holy to the Lord. What would be different? 

So if it is to be separate to God and we are not to do that which is our normal pleasure that we can do on other days what would we not do we do on other days? 
Yes of course we can pray and read the word on other days also, but on Lord's day we do not do those things that are normal duties in our earthly lives, other than deeds of necessity and mercy. We are not to try to spin or twist this to allow that it will be merciful to buy a ticket to a sports event and go relax there since I seldom do this. 

Or that we are to be holy in all things and do all things to the Lord. 

Again these would make the 4th commandment meaningless. 

If you say you do believe it and you do not rebel but keep the 4th commandment you may want to re-evaluate this so it is clear in your mind you are doing only those things that are specifically of spiritual worship to God. If you are uncertain about this it might be wise to consult our fathers that were Godly and see how it has been done throughout the church.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> If it is to be set apart as holy to the Lord. What would be different?



What is different is that it is a day of worship and rest. The other days of the week I work. Sunday is different. I attend worship, and I rest. 



> So if it is to be separate to God and we are not to do that which is our normal pleasure that we can do on other days what would we not do we do on other days?



I disagree about the pleasure part. I think we are allowed to have pleasures on the Lord's day, so long as they are not sinful. 
Can a man and his wife have sex on the Lord's day? That's a serious question.



> Yes of course we can pray and read the word on other days also, but on Lord's day we do not do those things that are normal duties in our earthly lives, other than deeds of necessity and mercy.



I don't do all of my normal duties on the Sabbath. I rest. Like I said, I plan ahead and do things like shopping beforehand. 



> If you are uncertain about this it might be wise to consult our fathers that were Godly and see how it has been done throughout the church.



I do consult church fathers, but not necessarily the Puritans. Like I said before, I don't think they had a special knowledge or wisdom that our church fathers today do not have. I don't want to make this an argument about which big names are on what side, but just want to say that I am not alone in my exception to the WCF regarding the Sabbath.


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## Herald (Apr 14, 2009)

> What is different is that it is a day of worship and rest. The other days of the week I work. Sunday is different. I attend worship, and I rest.



Daniel,

What type of rest are we to engage in on the Lord's Day? Obviously, if the body is tired, a nap is not a bad or sinful thing. But since the Sabbath was consecrated by God (made holy), would it be appropriate for us to follow God's example by also consecrating the day? Consider:



> Genesis 2:2 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.



What type of rest did God engage in? Did God cease to uphold the law of physics that bind the universe together? Did he cease to sustain His creation? Obviously the answer is "no." 



> Genesis 2:3 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.



God made the seventh day holy, _because_ in it He finished His creative work. So, the Lord's Day rest is not specifically a physical rest. It is a holy rest. As God still performed works of necessity (i.e. sustaining His creation), we are able to follow His example by acts of love and mercy towards the saints.


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## Jon Peters (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > If it is to be set apart as holy to the Lord. What would be different?
> ...



You're obviously not alone in your view of the Lord's Day. I tend to approach the day very similar to you with worship and fellowship with the saints being the primary activity on that day.

This may not be the thread for this (and I'm sure there are a hundred others in the PB achieve) but to simply go to the text of the Fourth Commandment, quote it, cite some OT Scripture and think that ends the discussion is patently wrong. Christ has come. Israel (the typological nation) is no longer. Christ has modified the Fourth Commandment and our relation to it. We don't worship on Saturday do we? But the Fourth Commandment commands that we worship on Saturday. What happened? Christ came. 

So, am I arguing that there is nothing for the Christian in the Fourth Commandment? Certainly not. My only point is that the Fourth Commandment has changed and our relation to it. The argument among us is how much.

If you ask me what are our obligations on the Lord's Day and what does the Fourth Commandment teach? I couldn't give as full an answer as some may want. I am still grappling with my new position, but I do know that it is not as easy as quoting Exodus or Isaiah (although there is certainly nothing wrong with that). Quoting simply those OT texts were enough for Israel but it is not enough for us.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Herald said:


> God made the seventh day holy, _because_ in it He finished His creative work. So, the Lord's Day rest is not specifically a physical rest. It is a holy rest. As God still performed works of necessity (i.e. sustaining His creation), we are able to follow His example by acts of love and mercy towards the saints.



I agree about rest--it's more than just a physical thing. But if pressed for a simple answer of what I think the Sabbath is for, it is to worship and rest. I don't see the point in trying to define it more than Scripture does by composing a list of sinful activities on the Sabbath.


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 14, 2009)

I think we've wandered from the OP.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> I think we've wandered from the OP.



Could that be the mark of a good thread?


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Can either of you site any scripture for your views? 

If it is different then show me where and how it is different? I agree that the day was changed, This was not by one man's arbitrary decision. We have scripture that shows Christ met the disciples and the first day and that is when they met. 

Can you show me where anything else was changed? 

1st you say you did your own pleasure and play with the kids and did things for yourself to catch up. Then you say well I rest. 

I simply agree with you that you aren't clear and to keep studying and praying. 
But be open to the fact that the scripture is clear how it is to be kept and what duties are forbidden and prescribed even if you would not agree with all of the practical conclusion of the Larger Catechism. Which by the way does warn us not to waste the day in sleep but to be actively doing spiritual duties. 

So if you think that you can do your pleasure then you do disagree that the passage I quoted no longer applies to us. 

so I challenge you, not here, not now, but just as I did and many of us have done, to go to prayer about it and study God's word and see if you have been holding out on Him. 
Ask for the Spirit to convict you of what to do to sanctify it and bring scriptures to you on how it has changed. 

I never found any. 

But you may. But I order my life by the scriptures and obey them and do waht is pleasing to God. 

So I am not against the fact you may have some time to play with the kids, I am concerned for you how you get there and how you argue this point. 

IT seems you are making changes and doing well in your duties. 

Now just go a little farther perhaps if you haven't and give up the whole day to Him and ask Him to guide you to how to keep it holy to Him . 

This was one issue when God was convicting me and changing me rapidly in the reformed faith that I rebelled to and refused to study at all. 

I simply prayed God if this sabbath is to be kept and we are to delight ourselves in you in that day not doing our own pleasure then convict me and teach me. 

I was in college with so much to do and people to meet and places to go. 

Within 2 weeks I had lost all desire to do anything but read and study the word and rest and no playing or fun or recreation etc. It all left. 

Then I began to study the subject, day change, how to sanctify it etc. But I did not want it to be a legal thing or a fundamental set of man made rules like the Talmud had. 

And God in His Mercy did graciously convict me. And continues to because everything is not laid out clearly. 

And yes I know men who will not have sex on the Lord's day and then others who have changed back such that if their wives desire it they do it as service to them. 

So how far you can walk or drive and how far you can move sticks to bring in to build a fire, I leave that to your conscience before God. 

But certain aspects are clear if we honestly seek to interpret scripture with a proper hermeneutic. 

MAy God through His Spirit bring you to a strong clear conviction and peace on this.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Can either of you site any scripture for your views?



What kind of scripture are you looking for? Scripture that says it's OK to play with your kids on the Sabbath? Sorry. I don't have that.
It seems to me that the burden is on you to show where the Bible restricts this or that. My guess is that you and I are using the exact same passages of scripture for our interpretation of the Sabbath, just coming to different conclusions.



> 1st you say you did your own pleasure and play with the kids and did things for yourself to catch up. Then you say well I rest.



I do rest. And I play with my kids. I consider that part of my rest. When I take a walk with my wife, that is a special time of fellowship and I think it is more than appropriate for a Sunday afternoon. Frankly, I think it is Pharisaical to say that I can't do that on the Sabbath.
Also, let me point out that I didn't plainly say I do my own pleasure. Some pleasures are of the flesh. The Sabbath is not all about me. It's first and foremost about worship, and secondly it's about renewal. If activities are not in line with that, they are not appropriate.



> I simply agree with you that you aren't clear and to keep studying and praying.
> But be open to the fact that the scripture is clear how it is to be kept and what duties are forbidden and prescribed even if you would not agree with all of the practical conclusion of the Larger Catechism.



Thank you. You also keep praying and studying, remaining open to what scripture says.



> Which by the way does warn us not to waste the day in sleep but to be actively doing spiritual duties.



Absolutely. It is not a day to waste. 



> IT seems you are making changes and doing well in your duties.



Making changes???



> Now just go a little farther perhaps if you haven't and give up the whole day to Him and ask Him to guide you to how to keep it holy to Him .
> 
> This was one issue when God was convicting me and changing me rapidly in the reformed faith that I rebelled to and refused to study at all....



I acknowledge that I am imperfect and fall short of God's law, but I get the impression from some of your words that you are saying that I just haven't studied or prayed enough on this issue, unlike yourself. I appreciate your words of encouragement, but we both need help in our biblical interpretation.



> And yes I know men who will not have sex on the Lord's day and then others who have changed back such that if their wives desire it they do it as service to them.



All I can say is wow. I don't mean to mock such people, but to draw from the 4th commandment that one should not engage in marital relations iseems quite legalistic.



> So how far you can walk or drive and how far you can move sticks to bring in to build a fire, I leave that to your conscience before God.



Exactly. I think conscience plays a large part in this, but at the same time I feel like you are imposing your conscience on others, rather than the Word itself.


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## Herald (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > God made the seventh day holy, _because_ in it He finished His creative work. So, the Lord's Day rest is not specifically a physical rest. It is a holy rest. As God still performed works of necessity (i.e. sustaining His creation), we are able to follow His example by acts of love and mercy towards the saints.
> ...



Daniel, I will not get into a list of what is permissible and not permissible on the Lord's Day. In my humble opinion we steer towards legalism when we make a rigid list that is virtually impossible to keep all the time. 

Perhaps the Lord's Day needs to be looked at in the marco, not the micro. The day belongs to the Lord. He created the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath should not be a burden to observe, but nor should that be an excuse to treat it as any other day. I already pointed toward Genesis 2 as to the day being holy. I can also reference Exodus 16 & 20 in that regard. The two dominant confession on this board (1689 LBC & WCF) agree that the day is to be observed differently than the other six days of the week. The macro view of the Lord's Day is that the entire day belongs to the Lord. If the day belongs to Lord, how can we best honor Him? Are there activities that we could willingly put aside that will prevent distraction? Can the day be used to bring our family together in worship and to perform acts of mercy to those in need? Perhaps the day isn't best for a church softball league, but it may be perfect to take a stroll down a hiking trail with the family, marveling and thanking God for His creation. Again, look at the day with the big picture in mind. The day belongs to God. I have an idea that if we approach the Lord's Day in such a manner it won't be too long before the need for a list of do's and don'ts will not be needed.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Herald said:


> Perhaps the Lord's Day needs to be looked at in the marco, not the micro. The day belongs to the Lord. He created the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath should not be a burden to observe, but nor should that be an excuse to treat it as any other day.



I completely agree. I hope I never gave the impression that it should be treated like any other day. I love the Sabbath, because I am free to NOT do all of those things I'm doing the rest of the week. It is a renewal of the spirit, mind and body. 



> If the day belongs to Lord, how can we best honor Him? Are there activities that we could willingly put aside that will prevent distraction? Can the day be used to bring our family together in worship and to perform acts of mercy to those in need? Perhaps the day isn't best for a church softball league, but it may be perfect to take a stroll down a hiking trail with the family, marveling and thanking God for His creation. Again, look at the day with the big picture in mind.



Well said. This where I disagree with what seems like most on the PB--filling our day with activities that best honor the Lord. Some say that can only be done by spending all of the day in His Word and in prayer. I don't think that is the case. Certainly it is a day of worship, and we do that each Sunday, but I think there are other activities that a family or fellowship of believers can do that are also honoring to the Lord...like a hike.



> I have an idea that if we approach the Lord's Day in such a manner it won't be too long before the need for a list of do's and don'ts will not be needed.



Exactly. A list of Do's and Don'ts would sure make things easier at times, but I don't think that is what the Lord's Day is about.


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## Herald (Apr 14, 2009)

> Well said. This where I disagree with what seems like most on the PB--filling our day with activities that best honor the Lord. Some say that can only be done by spending all of the day in His Word and in prayer. I don't think that is the case. Certainly it is a day of worship, and we do that each Sunday, but I think there are other activities that a family or fellowship of believers can do that are also honoring to the Lord...like a hike.



Daniel, let's be careful that we don't over-generalize. I'm sure you are not going that route. 

Sabbatarians on the PB hold to different levels of conviction on how to best observe the day. I don't think any of them hold the opinion that the day can only be observed, "by spending all of the day in His Word and in prayer." The confessions clearly state acts of _necessity_ and _mercy_ are part of the Lords Day observance. 

We also need to be careful of the, "give me an inch and I'll take a yard" syndrome. Either the day belongs to the Lord, or it doesn't. If it does, then we should observe it as such. Our conscience should be unhindered as we worship, serve and enjoy our great God. If we stray in the error of legalism, where we create and anticipate exceptions, then we have lost the blessing that the Lord's Day contains.


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## Tripel (Apr 14, 2009)

Herald said:


> Daniel, let's be careful that we don't over-generalize. I'm sure you are not going that route.
> 
> Sabbatarians on the PB hold to different levels of conviction on how to best observe the day. I don't think any of them hold the opinion that the day can only be observed, "by spending all of the day in His Word and in prayer." The confessions clearly state acts of _necessity_ and _mercy_ are part of the Lords Day observance.



Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize. Clearly acts of necessity and mercy are called for.


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## MW (Apr 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Exactly. A list of Do's and Don'ts would sure make things easier at times, but I don't think that is what the Lord's Day is about.



The reality is that we all create such lists in relation to God's commandments, and not simply with respect to the Lord's day. If we were not thinking how God's word specifically applies to our hearts and lives there would be something wrong with our conscience.


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## Herald (Apr 14, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. A list of Do's and Don'ts would sure make things easier at times, but I don't think that is what the Lord's Day is about.
> ...



Matthew, absolutely! I think the problem comes when a church exceeds the scripture/confessions, and codifies its own "do's" and "don'ts." When the saints are required to observe those things, consciences are often bound and legalism ensues.


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## DonP (Apr 14, 2009)

Well Daniel I think from the OP of the thread what one can conclude is that we as church members be considerate of the fact God has told us to keep the Lord's day in a special way, not to d commerce and work. 

Therefore be hospitable and on the lookout for those who may not have been so bold to call ahead, and would appreciate a lunch and some time with fellow brothers and sisters. 
To try to hook them up with some like minded people, or any family willing to serve them by respecting their convictions. 

So not much, actually, maybe transportation and a lunch. 

I think there may be some more fundamentalists on the Lord's day but I have not met them. Those I know who are convicted even stricter than myself do it not out of slavish bondage or to earn salvation or win points with God or to be holier than thou, but simply because this is how God convicted them. 
I think they are open to discuss the subject and explain how they came to their convictions, and only have the best desires for others. 

We know it is a matter that god must grow us in, to loe to please Him this day not just outwardly follow rules. So we understand others who have not come to similar convictions if they are honestly open to the scriptures and being taught. 

So wouldn't it be good for you and others to equally respect their more strict convictions?

Thanks for the thread and discussion.


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## MW (Apr 14, 2009)

Herald said:


> Matthew, absolutely! I think the problem comes when a church exceeds the scripture/confessions, and codifies its own "do's" and "don'ts." When the saints are required to observe those things, consciences are often bound and legalism ensues.



Yes, so the real issue is ensuring the conscience is bearing witness in the Holy Spirit and is informed by God's will when it engages in moral dictation.


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## euaggelion (Apr 15, 2009)

*Mark 2:23-28 NASB *
And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. (24) The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" (25) And He *said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; (26) how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?" (27) Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (28) "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."


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## Theoretical (Apr 15, 2009)

Tripel said:


> I guess I'm not used to these churches where everyone goes to restaurants afterward and they invite visitors to go with them. While my church isn't making a special announcement to invite "Sabbatarians" to someone's home, there is a good amount of hospitality going on. My pastor is almost always having people over to his house on Sunday, as are many of the elders. If you make yourself known as a regular visitor, your chances are good to eventually end up in someone's home.
> As for out of town visitors, I don't see why you can't just call ahead of time. We'd bend over backwards to extend hospitality. But in a church of 400-500, it's kind of hard to pick out everyone who is a visitor and make sure they have a place to eat. In my opinion, the person visiting needs to take the initiative if they feel that strongly about it.



Then come to virtually any Dallas PCA, and you'll be shocked. I've been to 4, each with radically different cultures, but identical practices in this category.

Eating out during the week is extremely common, and most often when invited to someone's home, including a pastor's, the food will have been catered/delivered or the like. *Very* little cooking seems to happen in this particular region. Lots of times people will invite each other to a fast food place or a burger joint near the church, wherever it might be.

This may be (and honestly I hope it is) an unusual practice, but it is part of the church culture in my area, be it mainline, evangelical, and most Reformed (I do know of a few exceptions, but the difference between those churches and the most conservative PCA in this area are night/day)

That was some of what I meant in my response to the "Non-hostile to Sabbatarians" thread.


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## DonP (Apr 15, 2009)

euaggelion said:


> *Mark 2:23-28 NASB *
> And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. (24) The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" (25) And He *said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; (26) how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?" (27) Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (28) "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."



Yes these are deeds of necessity. 
It is allowed to eat on the Lord's day and if you want to glean food you can but you can't collect extra to sell or harvest to store up.

Note also the example was done in the OT times and was legal then and so Christ shows the Pharisees what they had added in the Talmud was wrong but what scripture taught in the OT He did not repeal. 

You can also pull your ox out of the ditch on the Lord's day but if your ox falls in the ditch every Lord's day I would suggest you fill the ditch or sell the ox so your Lord's days are not interrupted regularly. 


The Pharisees said only walk 1200 paces max on the sabbath. 

No one is saying that here. 

See how easy it is to mis-interpret scripture or mis-apply it?


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## Scott1 (Apr 15, 2009)

> *Theoretical*
> Eating out during the week is extremely common, and most often when invited to someone's home, including a pastor's, the food will have been catered/delivered or the like. Very little cooking seems to happen in this particular region. Lots of times people will invite each other to a fast food place or a burger joint near the church, wherever it might be.



Sounds like an opportunity to be counter-culture and for you to learn how to cook. Seriously, and invite people over occasionally for a home cooked meal (sounds like that will be very popular, and a great way to show hospitality.).

-----Added 4/15/2009 at 06:05:03 EST-----



Tripel said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > God made the seventh day holy, _because_ in it He finished His creative work. So, the Lord's Day rest is not specifically a physical rest. It is a holy rest. As God still performed works of necessity (i.e. sustaining His creation), we are able to follow His example by acts of love and mercy towards the saints.
> ...



Yes,
This is a good summary and the words are in line with what the Confessions summarize the doctrine of Scripture to be.

How does one "worship"?
In thought word, and deed (not doing work or seeking to entertain oneself, or thinking or talking about them).

How does one "rest"?
"Sabbath" means "cease." One ceases, or sets aside, the ordinary activities of the rest of the week (esp. work and entertainment) in order to "worship" as above. Exceptions for mercy and necessity are (graciously) allowed.

So, while taking a hike with friends and focusing conversation on sports, work, and personal problems are fine any other day, the Lord commands us to "set apart" the sabbath from these ordinary activities in order to focus on Him. Our flesh resents that, the fact a Holy God actually has a claim on "our" time. It's inconvenient (to our agenda), it's a restriction on "our" freedom, a holy God wouldn't want to impose a restriction on us...

so our fallen minds reason.

So, what do we do on the sabbath?

Corporate, personal and family worship.

That includes things like attend worship, Bible class, reading the Bible at home to the family, praying, singing spiritual songs, quiet time, meditating on God's Word, memorizing Scripture, engaging in mercy works (giving a ride to church to a needy person, inviting them for a meal). It means what the Confession calls 'religious talk'- discussion of God's Word, doctrine, application, etc. Praying quietly and together.

Yet, God's Word calls it a delight to spend the whole time worshipping Him, something we will do forever in Heaven.


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