# Prayer at Catholic Baptism... help...



## travis

I have been asked to pray at the baptism of my nephew. Here are the details...

It will be administered at a Catholic Church.
The Father is unbaptized/non-beliver
The Mother is Catholic/nominal believer/whatever

So, given this situation, I do not want to pray about covenantal identity since I do not believe that is what is happening due to the parents unbelief. However, it is confusing for me because this is how I was baptized... both parents were not practicing, yet I am now saved and a member of the covenant. Does this mean my baptism was not legit, etc etc etc etc.?

So how should I pray for this little one in front everyone?


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## lv1nothr

travis said:


> I have been asked to pray at the baptism of my nephew. Here are the details...
> 
> It will be administered at a Catholic Church.
> The Father is unbaptized/non-beliver
> The Mother is Catholic/nominal believer/whatever
> 
> So, given this situation, I do not want to pray about covenantal identity since I do not believe that is what is happening due to the parents unbelief. However, it is confusing for me because this is how I was baptized... both parents were not practicing, yet I am now saved and a member of the covenant. Does this mean my baptism was not legit, etc etc etc etc.?
> 
> So how should I pray for this little one in front everyone?



I assume you do know the R.C. view of baptism. 
I was saved out of the R.C. church and myself have turned down even attending the baptisms of nieces and nephews, I guess I see it as agreeing with what is taking place, or being told to the ppl...to me heresy. 

Perhaps someone much wiser than myself (won't be hard to find) can give you better direction on this. 

May the Lord give you much wisdom.


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## travis

Thanks for the reply. I should be more clear in that I am praying at the reception, not at the mass. It will also be interesting to see the reaction of the Catholics in my family when I do not go up to receive communion.


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## travis

Here are the responses from two of my pastors...



Senior Pastor said:


> That's a tough one, Travis. A lot of this boils down to what you can, according to your conscience, pray with integrity. I imagine I would steer clear of anything that directly relates the event of baptism to the parent's faith commitment (or lack thereof) and try instead to emphasize what baptism symbolizes theologically--things like f the cleansing of sin through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus; that just as Christ identified himself with us in baptism, so we identify ourselves with him in baptism--things along those lines. I would pray that God would be at work in the child making the sacrament effectual, so that he might grow up to embrace, know, love, and follow Christ in all his ways all his days. You could add a word of prayer for the parents that they might be shaped by the same grace of the Lord to be God's instruments through which the transforming power of the gospel works into the child's heart...or something like that. One has to be careful, though, not to sermonize in a prayer.





Pastor to Families with Children said:


> Travis,
> 
> Regarding your prayer, I fully agree with every point he has articulated and cannot think of a thing to add to it.
> 
> Regarding your question, "Is there a difference when it is administered to the child of unbelieving parents," I will comment briefly here, then try to find you some writing that has helped me and articulates things better than I can. And, Leo, feel free to correct anything that I say that ought to be so.
> 
> There certainly will be a difference from most CTK baptisms in terms of what the parents can be committing themselves to and will immediately be communicating to their child in terms of spiritual training. However, the effectuality of the sacrament is mysterious beyond our comprehension. As we discuss often at times of ordination exams for ministers, would we rebaptize an infant who had been baptized in a setting such as this? Trusting that God is the one who makes the sacrament effectual, and in reference to the unity of our "one baptism" that Paul references in Ephesians 4, if when discussing this issue with your nephew ten or fifteen years from now during a church membership interview, if at that time he professes saving faith in Jesus and his baptism was conducted in "the name of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," then we would say it certainly was effectual and would not rebaptize, keeping in mind all along that ultimately baptism points all that witness it to the accomplishment and merit of Jesus (you might consider that to be part of your prayer - praise directed to Jesus for what He has done for us and to God for His mercy and grace), not the merit of the recipient or the parents.
> 
> I commend your taking the words of public prayer solemnly and we would do well, I think, to invite the community group to be praying for the entire family.
> 
> Grace to you, Travis.


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## SolaGratia

*RC Baptism*

I would make my prayer to God keeping it faithful to the Bible with the intention that the Holy Spirit will use you as a means of testifying the truth in the mist of spiritual darkness. In addition, be careful not to participate in the mass or the ceremony. Mostly likely someone will take notice and approach you about it, so be prepare to respond in Spirit and in Truth.


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## ADKing

I know you have probably already considered and decided against this, but I would strongly urge you to reconsider even attending a Romish baptism or being present at a mass even if you do not partake. Romanism is a false religion. The Reformers were pretty unanimous on the fact that it was wrong to attend a mass. 

The Westminster Larger Catechism explains in its exposition of the 2nd commandment...

_Q108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him. as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry. 

Q109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature. Whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense. Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
_


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## ChristopherPaul

ADKing said:


> I know you have probably already considered and decided against this, but I would strongly urge you to reconsider even attending a Romish baptism or being present at a mass even if you do not partake. Romanism is a false religion. The Reformers were pretty unanimous on the fact that it was wrong to attend a mass.
> 
> The Westminster Larger Catechism explains in its exposition of the 2nd commandment...
> 
> _Q108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
> A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him. as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.
> 
> Q109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature. Whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense. Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
> _






travis said:


> Thanks for the reply. I should be more clear in that *I am praying at the reception, not at the mass*. It will also be interesting to see the reaction of the Catholics in my family when I do not go up to receive communion.



.


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## Augusta

travis said:


> Thanks for the reply. I should be more clear in that I am praying at the reception, not at the mass. It will also be interesting to see the reaction of the Catholics in my family *when I do not go up to receive communion*.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

ADKing said:


> I know you have probably already considered and decided against this, but I would strongly urge you to reconsider even attending a Romish baptism or being present at a mass even if you do not partake. Romanism is a false religion. The Reformers were pretty unanimous on the fact that it was wrong to attend a mass.
> 
> The Westminster Larger Catechism explains in its exposition of the 2nd commandment...
> 
> _Q108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
> A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him. as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.
> 
> Q109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature. Whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense. Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
> _



 It would not only be sinful to partake of the "communion" but also even to be present at the Mass. It's worth reading _The Hurt of Hearing Mass_ by John Bradford or _Come Out From Among Them: The Anti-Nicodemite Writings of John Calvin_. See also this article.


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## travis

ADKing said:


> I know you have probably already considered and decided against this, but I would strongly urge you to reconsider even attending a Romish baptism or being present at a mass even if you do not partake. Romanism is a false religion. The Reformers were pretty unanimous on the fact that it was wrong to attend a mass.
> 
> The Westminster Larger Catechism explains in its exposition of the 2nd commandment...
> 
> _Q108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
> A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him. as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.
> 
> Q109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature. Whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense. Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
> _



Would you rebaptize someone who came forth for membership and was baptized in the Catholic church? I was baptized as an infant in Catholic church, was saved at the age of 19 purely by God's grace and consider my Baptism to be effectual because it was made so by God.


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## ADKing

travis said:


> Would you rebaptize someone who came forth for membership and was baptized in the Catholic church? I was baptized as an infant in Catholic church, was saved at the age of 19 purely by God's grace and consider my Baptism to be effectual because it was made so by God.



I consider this an issue of debate within Presbyterianism. Some Presbyterian denominations consider it valid, others do not. Some denominations have gone back and forth on the issue, like the Old School church in the 1800s. 

Whichever side you come down on with respect to your question, I see this as entirely unrelated to whether or not it is ever acceptable to attend services of false religion conducted by an antichristian "church". I know it can be _*very*_ difficult to make that stand when it comes to family but I believe it is a necessary stand we must make for the gospel and the second commandment.


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