# Sparing the ROD



## Scott Bushey (Jul 15, 2005)

Scenario: You discipline your 15 year old. They fight back. In the melee you catch a leg in the process w/ the switch. There is a mark. The child calls the police; They threaten to arrest you for hitting your child. They tell you, "You cannot hit your child", and threaten to take you to jail.

Thoughts?

[Edited on 7-16-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Michael Butterfield (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Scenario: You discipline your 15 year old. They fight back. In the melee you catch a leg in the process w/ the switch. There is a mark. The child calls the police; They threaten to arrest you for hitting your child. They tell you, "You cannot hit your child", and threaten to take you to jail.
> 
> Thoughts?
> ...



Probably the first time it was done in 15 years.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 15, 2005)

I am unsure of the laws in the United States.

You describe this case as "In the melee you catch a leg in the process ..." - from your wording it sounds like an _accident_ to inflict a mark. Are you allowed to spank/strike a child in the US at all?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm behind bars. My kid will be sent to military school also.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 16, 2005)

By age 15 you shouldn't have to spank a child though. I restrict and ground the heck out of mine. They hate that worse. By age 12 they should be pretty obedient though.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 16, 2005)

Rebellion against the government.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> I am unsure of the laws in the United States.
> 
> You describe this case as "In the melee you catch a leg in the process ..." - from your wording it sounds like an _accident_ to inflict a mark. Are you allowed to spank/strike a child in the US at all?



It depends on which state you live in. The more conservative states allow spanking. The more liberal outlaw spanking as abuse. Funny how there seems to be more crime in those states....


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> ...



In light of what has been posted, do you submit to the government and break Gods command to 'not spare the rod'?


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## doulosChristou (Jul 16, 2005)

No, you do not submit to the government in cases where it commands what God forbids or forbids what God commands, which is the case here. Our supreme duty is to obey God. His law trumps man's (Acts 5:29).


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 16, 2005)

Greg,
So you would risk getting arrested?

[Edited on 7-16-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Michael Butterfield (Jul 16, 2005)

Since I can find a chapter and verse for spanking (I have not seen one for grounding  ), I spank or they (the state) can come get the kids. If the children are rebelling against me to the degree that they will call the state on me in the first place, then there is something dreadfully wrong and they are likely covenant breakers anyway. Now, there might be a remedy for that, but that is some pretty serious rebellion and they likely learned it from the tv  (I just had to say that).


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 16, 2005)

Michael,
So you would turn the lot over to the state; there are 3 of 4 rebelling in this manner. The family in question are God fearing. The girls have been raised according to Gods word. They are all girls and have been homeschooled their whole lives.


[Edited on 7-16-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Michael Butterfield (Jul 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Michael,
> So you would turn the lot over to the state; there are 3 of 4 rebelling in this manner. The family in question are God fearing. The girls have been raised according to Gods word. They are all girls and have been homeschooled their whole lives.
> 
> ...



This is always the problem with hypothetical situations. In all honesty, I really do not know what I would do. I would like to think, however, that I would not really allow the state to take them nor would I turn them over. Again, I do not want to be too censorious to a person in this predicament, but there seems to be something else going on in such a family if at the age you suggest something like this is happening. I might even consider at age 15 of putting them out on their own if it really is that bad. I would, then, be inclined to implement the Dr. Laura strategy at an earlier age than 18. I mean it is only 3 years. If they want to make adult decisions, then they have to live with adult consequences.


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## Michael Butterfield (Jul 16, 2005)

Let me add, I would spank my child at 15 if it were needed; however, I cannot remember the last time I needed to spank my 12 year old. The obedience I receive from my children does not necessitate that I worry about such a thing at this point in our lives and experiences. Again, there would just seem to be something else going on in such a household as you mention. All things being equal it would not likely happen unless there is some underlying and secret sin on the part of the parents. Obviously, that is not a guarantee that no latent rebellion is in the heart of the child and any number of things can happen, but I do not see the situation you are articulating to be the norm.

Here is a sermon link to a great sermon by Piper that addresses this subject in an applicatory way. The sermon is titled "The Present Effects of Trembling at the Wrath of God" by John Piper and that is what you will have to look for once you are on this page.


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## doulosChristou (Jul 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Greg,
> So you would risk getting arrested?



Affirmative. That's the apostolic model. Obey God, even if that means arrest or beating or death. Scripture nowhere commands that we obey God unless their is a risk of arrest involved in the obedience.


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## ChristianasJourney (Jul 16, 2005)

In my humble opinion

"Spare the rod..." is not so much a command to spank, but to use whatever means is necessary in order to raise a Godly child. If you have to spank a 15 year old, you've probably already failed in the child-rearing department. If being sent to jail will help raise a godly child, then by all means do it. If being sent to jail will widen the gap between parent and child, and take away the child's only authority than in my opinion it's really a foolish thing to do.

So what does one do?

1. Start disciplining early. Discipline is not punishment. Punishment is payment for a crime committed, discipline is to encourage them to change their ways. Think "Disciple".

2. Disciple. Children are always learning from some one. Keep them near you so you can nip problems in the bud, and teach them with your words and by your example. 

3. Always be consistent - They will grow to depend on how consistent you are. If they understand your instruction, have a "zero-tolerance" policy for lack of obedience. If you threaten them with a discipline measures, by all means make sure you do it.

4. Don't be a hypocrite - Children do tend to follow the examples of their parents. If you're constantly harping on the dangers of smoking, but you smoke, don't be surprise to find cigarette butts out behind the barn. They will 1. Not trust your words, because your actions don't support them. 2. Recognize that living a lie is okay, because of course you do it, and 3. learn to be hypocrites themselves. Teens particularly, are not into "flawed hero's". And if you step down from your pedestal and toss your white hat for one of gray, it is your kids who will suffer the consequences

5. If you have a troubled teen, spanking won't do anything except show that your mad. Instead, remove his possessions so that he depends on you for all his needs. Revoke his privileges so he can't "feed off" of his friends who no doubt think that you come from the lower parts of the earth. Keep him with you, and involved in your activities, so he learns to think and act like an adult. Remember Point 4.- Don't be a hypocrite. This isn't a day punishment but a change of lifestyle, until your teens heart and mindset is on track, and he's responsible enough to make the "right decisions" on his own.


(Edited to reflect my ability to count.)

[Edited on 7-16-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 16, 2005)

Really, though, the problem is that the parents are coming in a day late and a dollar short. I know the situation. NOW they are God fearing parents, but I'm pretty sure the children did not "grow up their whole lives" that way. The parents were converted, and then started training thier children too late (in some regards). Scott, would you agree, or am I thinking of someone dfferent?

Thus, they have to deal with the police, and with thier heathen children.


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## ChristianasJourney (Jul 16, 2005)

I would still stick with points 2-5 of my previous posts.

The purpose spanking should serve is to change the heart into one of submission. If the discipline isn't effective in that way (which is obvious by the call to the police) than the method has to be changed. 

When 3 children rebel, I can practically guarantee that the parents haven't done everything right.

Is the father the head of the home? Is the mother submissive to the father? Do the two have a communicative relationship and do they have joy in each other? Do they present to their children a united front? Do they support each other's decisions and actions? These are the foundational principles of good child-rearing. Often when "good families" have troubled children if you look at the marriage you'll find gaping flaws--the man wimps out on his headship role, and the wife, while being submissive in actions, isn't submissive in spirit.

The children were homeschooled, but homeschooling only limits one source of problems. How often were the children allowed to socialize without parental guidance? Were they an active part of the church youth group? The church youth group sounds good, but it can as much of a breeding ground for rebellion as schooling. What about tv, reading materials and video games? Were these sources of entertainment supervised. Most importantly, do their parents wink at sin? Denying it in one breath, but find it cute when others do it?

However, according to Matt, even if this family is doing everything right now, it wasn't always the case. And now the children are older and they're having problems.

I have some suggestions, but I'm sure that many would feel them to be restrictive...but then, what is a child's soul worth?

I would not spank...because with older children it's not easy to change a rebellious heart through spanking. I would remove all of their belongings except for their bed, and the basic clothes. No toys, games, fashion accessories, keepsakes, knick-knacks nothing. Just an empty room with a bed. I would restrict their activities to adult church, with me. No children's church, youth group, or children's Sunday school. I would make them a part of my life (which would be a selfless act on my part, since it would also restrict my activities. But most parents aren't that selfless.) I would always keep them with me and would work on enjoying life with them, listening to their thoughts, considering their opinions, and fellowship with them, and reestablishing the lines of communications. But I wouldn't allow myself to be manipulated by their attitudes. This would continue until there was long-term change of heart, and I saw it in their behavior and desires in life.

Of course, all of this will probably cause a major temper tantrum, threats to run away, and a miserable few weeks, but it won't get you thrown in jail, and eventually the child will realize and appreciate the selfless sacrifice the parents are making. In essence, the parents are telling the child we're doing this because I love you more than myself and I'm putting actions behind my words. I'm not just scape-goating my responsibility behind a spanking, but I'm willing to change our lifestyle because I care about you. It's important to remember that the children probably want a good relationship with their paretns, they just want it on their terms.


My nickel's worth of thought.



[Edited on 7-16-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 16, 2005)

> I have some suggestions, but I'm sure that many would feel them to be restrictive...but then, what is a child's soul worth?
> 
> I would not spank...because with older children it's not easy to change a rebellious heart through spanking. I would remove all of their belongings except for their bed, and the basic clothes. No toys, games, fashion accessories, keepsakes, knick-knacks nothing. Just an empty room with a bed. I would restrict their activities to adult church, with me. No children's church, youth group, or children's Sunday school. I would make them a part of my life (which would be a selfless act on my part, since it would also restrict my activities. But most parents aren't that selfless.) I would always keep them with me and would work on enjoying life with them, listening to their thoughts, considering their opinions, and fellowship with them, and reestablishing the lines of communications. But I wouldn't allow myself to be manipulated by their attitudes. This would continue until there was long-term change of heart, and I saw it in their behavior and desires in life.
> 
> Of course, all of this will probably cause a major temper tantrum, threats to run away, and a miserable few weeks, but it won't get you thrown in jail, and eventually the child will realize and appreciate the selfless sacrifice the parents are making. In essence, the parents are telling the child we're doing this because I love you more than myself and I'm putting actions behind my words. I'm not just scape-goating my responsibility behind a spanking, but I'm willing to change our lifestyle because I care about you. It's important to remember that the children probably want a good relationship with their paretns, they just want it on their terms.



Good ideas.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 16, 2005)

I hope I am allowed to post here as I am but a youth. I hope also in some way that my age may give some advantage to my answer as I can speak from a younger person perspective.

I agree with ChristianasJourney's suggestions. What is the rod for other than punishment? What is punishment for other than correction? What is correction for other than the good of the child? If things had happened earlier this situation would never have arisen - true - but these events have happened and they must be remedied. A parent must use Christian prudence. Is it really worth going to jail (and leaving your children fatherless) at the expense of using the rod _in this late stage of development_ (that is an important last clause as I am not against spanking as such - indeed as a youth sometimes I wish my parents were more strict and prudent in the treating of me).

ChristianasJourney's suggested punishments in a strange way will be more punishing than the rod. O how a teenager shall reel when they have no way to respond or use the law to their benifit!

Just another suggestion although I do not know the situation - as a teenager i have seen it myself and I see it in my friends. Children must respect their parents. It will be all the much easier for the children to 'reform' if they see their parents openly doing something in that area (say ban entertainment for x amount of days etc...) - if all children need a 'punishment' how about the whole family goes through it and the parents can then show that they care enough to go through the ordeal with the children. It may not be too orthodox childrearing but this is a teenagers suggestion anyway. It would atleast drown all complaints of unfairness in ones throat


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## BrianBowman (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm not a father, but I feel compelled to "chime in" anyway. I was an only child raised in a home without much real Christian influence (nominal Church attendance and having the Bible read to me from 2-5 years old basically). I don't remember ever being spanked by either of my parents, but in my heart I believed it would have helped my anxiety and sense of guilt. My parents marriage ended in divorce when I was 13. I was also a very anxious child (... and I've fought this as an adult as well) . 

My personal take (having studied the Scriptures on the topic of discipline) is that children should be spanked appropriately from toddler up to some reasonable age - depending on the child; for acts of rebellion, defiance, or if they refuse to listen to repeated loving admonishments to control their unruly behavior and tongue. The rod must be accompanied with healthy admonishments in how important character development is to God.

And as Janice has said, by the teen years, use the "boot camp" deprivation and really "get in their life". DO NOT leave them alone much (I was left alone MUCH from 13-18). Engage, engage, engage them. Above all, parents, keep your _marriage_ in the integrity of Christ. Kids learn more from watching how their parents interact than any of us realize. Impart to their conscience the holiness of God and the divine blueprint/sacredness of marriage and family. 

Any child who ultimately rebels against all of this is a complete fool and willl reap what they sow in life. In my study of Scripture, if parents don't go to these lengths to raise their kids in the "nuture and admonition of the Lord", then the parents don't really fear God or truly love their children, and as in my personal experience such children will likely spend the next 10 to 20 years learning to "grow up" through repeated personal disasters..

[Edited on 7-17-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 16, 2005)

What if your son is not named Rod?


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