# Romans 2:14-16



## Anglicanorthodoxy (Jul 25, 2017)

I recently contacted a very Traditional Catholic priest, and asked him about the RCCs view on salvation. I asked him if he believed that a Pagan/Muslim/Jew/Hindu, etc who never hears the Gospel and lives a good life can be saved. He said that yes, a non-Christian who lives a good life can be saved.( because according to him, the Natural Law is written in every mans heart) He said that Paul Affirms this in Romans 2:14-16. How would y'all respond to that? Something quite sad struck me when thinking about this. For Rome, a Confessional Protestant who has accepted Christ as Lord will be damned, but a non-Christian who lives a " good life" will be saved.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 25, 2017)

The law of God is, indeed, written on the heart. It would behoove your VTCP to study the whole of the apostle's argument in Romans; as well as all he wrote, and whole NT (and whole Bible) doctrine of salvation. Acts. 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

WCF 10 Of Effectual Calling, para.7
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,15 and may have some common operations of the Spirit,16 yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:17 much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.18 And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.19​
*19* 2Jn.1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 1Cor.16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. Gal.1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.​The point of this major division of Paul's Romans epistle, from 1:18 to 3:20, is to conclude all men under condemnation, cf. Gal.3:22; Rom.11:32. It overthrows the design of the apostle, prior to presenting the sole remedy for this universal condition beginning at 3:21, to have introduced any alternative to Christ whatsoever. The point the apostle makes in that portion, is that the heathen "moralists" are just as condemned as anyone; it is not as though one is any more or less liable to judgment if he has or has not a clear written transcript of the divine will (ala the Ten Commandments).

Every benighted pagan has a moral code. It may not be accurate, but at some point it does coincide with the True Standard; we should expect this to be the case even if a man can no longer read clearly the "work of the Law" that continues to bear witness within him, and has no reliable teacher to give him clarity. And yet, every single one of these isolated sinners has violated his own conscience at all points, including most tellingly at the point of sufficient coincidence with the divine law. And that SINGLE offense--were it was the ONLY sin in his life (which it surely is not)--is enough to damn the sinner separated from Christ.

Your VTCP, and all the rest of the Roman system, reverts back again and again to the Pelagian inclinations of every natural mind. Gal.2:21, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for *if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.*"

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


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## Cymro (Jul 25, 2017)

A response could be on this wise. If what you say is true, what is the point of Christ coming into this fallen world and knowing and bearing the wrath of the Father upon Him on Calvary. Why was He made sin who knew no sin, if one can be forgiven through the natural law? Where in the natural law does it give the remedy for deliverance from sin? If through the natural law man is salvable, then it is no more grace but law works. If a moral good life equates with salvation then it contradicts Paul's argument that by the works of the law no man is justified, and there is none righteous no not one they have all gone out of the way.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 25, 2017)

I love it when Reverend Buchanan responds. He gets an AMEN from me so often.



Contra_Mundum said:


> Every benighted pagan has a moral code. It may not be accurate, but at some point it does coincide with the True Standard; we should expect this to be the case even if a man can no longer read clearly the "work of the Law" that continues to bear witness within him, and has no reliable teacher to give him clarity. And yet, every single one of these isolated sinners has violated his own conscience at all points, including most tellingly at the point of sufficient coincidence with the divine law. And that SINGLE offense--were it was the ONLY sin in his life (which it surely is not)--is enough to damn the sinner separated from Christ.



Here is a Rutherford scholar on the Natural Law. I am going to post a part of my blog here concerning Rutherford. I asked a very good Rutherford Scholar about Rutherford's view of Natural Law. His response to my question is good also.
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...-and-natural-law-question-for-dr-guy-richard/



> Lex Rex
> CHAP. I.
> Of Conscience and its nature.
> “Of this intellectual Treasure-house, we are to know these. 1. That in the inner Cabinet, the natural habit of Moral principles lodgeth, the Register of the common notions left in us by nature, the Ancient Records and Chronicles which were in Adam’s time, *the Law of Nature of two volumes, one of the first Table, that there is a God, that he createth and governeth all things, that there is but one God, infinitely good, more just rewarding the Evil and the good; and of the second Table, as to love our Parents, obey Superiors, to hurt no man, the acts of humanity; All these are written in the soul, in deep letters, yet the Ink is dim and old, and therefore this light is like the Moon swimming through watery clouds, often under a shadow, and yet still in the firmament.* Caligula, and others, under a cloud, denied there was any God, yet when the cloud was over, the light broke out of prison, and granted, a God there must be; strong winds do blow out a Torch in the night, and will blow in the same light again; and that there be other seeds, though come from a far land, and not growing out of the ground, as the former, is clear, for Christ scattereth some Gospel-truths in this Chalmer; as John 7.28. Then cried Jesus in the Temple; as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and whence I am. John 15.24. But now they have both seen, and hated both me and my Father.”





> (Jas 2:9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
> (Jas 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.





> (Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.





> (Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> (Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
> (Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.





> (Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.





> (Isa 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.





> (Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.





> (2Co 5:14) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
> (2Co 5:15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
> (2Co 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
> (2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
> ...



I am willing to bet that there are other underlying issues though. Authority of the Scripture and the Authority of the Church will be one of those issues. 

If you are going to deal with Romans I would suggest you get a book. 
*A Dialogue Between a Catholic Priest and a Protestant* by Matthew Poole

http://www.northamptonpress.org/pdfs/Dialogue_Flyer_(Bookstore).pdf


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 25, 2017)

Cymro said:


> A response could be on this wise. If what you say is true, what is the point of Christ coming into this fallen world and knowing and bearing the wrath of the Father upon Him on Calvary. Why was He made sin who knew no sin, if one can be forgiven through the natural law? Where in the natural law does it give the remedy for deliverance from sin? If through the natural law man is salvable, then it is no more grace but law works. If a moral good life equates with salvation then it contradicts Paul's argument that by the works of the law no man is justified, and there is none righteous no not one they have all gone out of the way.


That wouldn't answer my objections at one time in life. I also believed God saved or allowed some to enter based upon a curve. It is kind of like our judicial system and life. Some people are good and life fully good lives. Some people are so bad they need to be saved. They are so bad others have to step in and help them. It is totally humanistic. Not everyone goes to jail or needs help recovering themselves. That is what Jesus was for. He was a Crutch or hospital for sick people. The problem with that is that we aren't sick people. We are dead. We are born in deadness to God and need a resurrection of our lives. We are so spiritually dead not knowing or wanting to care about what God wills. We need to be born again. The great exposition of Jesus and Nicodemus. 


> (Joh 3:1) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
> (Joh 3:2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
> (Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> (Joh 3:4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
> ...





> (Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> (Joh 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God.
> (Joh 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
> (Joh 1:4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
> ...





> (Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
> (Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
> (Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
> (Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
> (Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved





> (Psa 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


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## Dachaser (Jul 25, 2017)

Anglicanorthodoxy said:


> I recently contacted a very Traditional Catholic priest, and asked him about the RCCs view on salvation. I asked him if he believed that a Pagan/Muslim/Jew/Hindu, etc who never hears the Gospel and lives a good life can be saved. He said that yes, a non-Christian who lives a good life can be saved.( because according to him, the Natural Law is written in every mans heart) He said that Paul Affirms this in Romans 2:14-16. How would y'all respond to that? Something quite sad struck me when thinking about this. For Rome, a Confessional Protestant who has accepted Christ as Lord will be damned, but a non-Christian who lives a " good life" will be saved.


The same Apostle makes it very clear though that faith comes by hearing, by the word of God, and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, so he does require a sinner to hear and to receive Christ.
How could they hear unless we go forth with that message? So Paul seemed to place a premium on Jesus alone saves, and we must hear the good news to get saved.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jul 25, 2017)

The RC doctrine of the church leads inevitably to such a view because if the church, rather than Christ, is the means of salvation, then God cannot rightly hold accountable those who had no reasonable access to the church. The RC eisegesis of Romans 2 is merely a feeble attempt to provide biblical support.


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## Dachaser (Jul 27, 2017)

Bill The Baptist said:


> The RC doctrine of the church leads inevitably to such a view because if the church, rather than Christ, is the means of salvation, then God cannot rightly hold accountable those who had no reasonable access to the church. The RC eisegesis of Romans 2 is merely a feeble attempt to provide biblical support.


They also would hold to God saving others in other religions, who are sincere to their beliefs, as He would credit that as if they knew what the Church of Rome teaches, as He would see them accepting those doctrines if aware of them. Only ones really lost would be those who were once Catholics, and turned away.


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## Anglicanorthodoxy (Jul 31, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> They also would hold to God saving others in other religions, who are sincere to their beliefs, as He would credit that as if they knew what the Church of Rome teaches, as He would see them accepting those doctrines if aware of them. *Only ones really lost would be those who were once Catholics, and turned away*.


I don't think that's necessary right. At the Catholic school I attended, this is what they taught on the issue
1. The official teaching of the RCC is that all who believe in God, and live a good life, but never hear the Gospel will be saved
2. HOWEVER, if one inquires and learns about what Catholics believe and then rejects Catholicism, they are heretics and will be damned.
3. Atheists will also be damned because they don't believe in God

So for Rome, as long as one believes in God, lives a good life, and does not directly reject Catholicism, they will be saved. That means Atheists, Agnostics, and all Confessional Protestants will be damned( because we know what Rome teaches and reject it)


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## Dachaser (Aug 1, 2017)

As will be former Catholics who turned away from what the church of Rome teaches. The Roman Church has also made a big deal about salvation being found in fellow believers of the Book, such as earnest Jews who hold to Judaism. and Muslims.


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## Anglicanorthodoxy (Aug 1, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> As will be former Catholics who turned away from what the church of Rome teaches. The Roman Church has also made a big deal about salvation being found in fellow believers of the Book, such as earnest Jews hold to Judaism. and Muslims.


Right


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## Justified (Aug 1, 2017)

Anglicanorthodoxy said:


> For Rome, a Confessional Protestant who has accepted Christ as Lord will be damned, but a non-Christian who lives a " good life" will be saved.


 If one is "invincibly ignorant" as a Protestant, they can be saved. What does this mean? They are intentionally vague about it. For most conservative-- and level-headed-- Roman Catholics I know, think that if you are exposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and believe her claims to be true, though you reject the Church, then you don't qualify as invincibly ignorant.


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## Justified (Aug 1, 2017)

Just in case you're fretting about Roman Catholicism and worried "I might be damned because I've been exposed to Roman Catholicism and am rejecting it", don't worry. Whether or not Catholicism is right about it's various claims (sacramental priesthood, apostolic succession, etc.), God is a much more loving God than to damn those who are just trying to follow your conscience and follow the Lord. He's not going to find reasons to damn you. If that's how you think about God-- and I have thought about God this way in the past-- please reassess what you think about God.

Hope that was helpful.


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## Gforce9 (Aug 1, 2017)

One of their prestigious (and now deceased) NT guys, Joseph Fitzmyer, wrote about Romans and concluded that it would appear that the Protestant view of Justification is what Paul taught. Go figure.....


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## Joseph Noah Gagliardi (Aug 1, 2017)

Romans 3, 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law _is_ the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4, 14 For if they which are of the law _be_ heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, _there is_ no transgression. 16 Therefore _it is_ of faith, that _it might be_ by grace

Christ fulfilled the law, because it damns. Then when we are freed from the demand of perfect obedience, we are drawn by the law in loving obedience, instead of dragging it as the awful burden upon our wretched souls that it is, so long as we remain in enmity with God. The law never saves, otherwise Christ would be a liar.


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## Dachaser (Aug 1, 2017)

Gforce9 said:


> One of their prestigious (and now deceased) NT guys, Joseph Fitzmyer, wrote about Romans and concluded that it would appear that the Protestant view of Justification is what Paul taught. Go figure.....


I had one of his books on the Greek NT, was like a commentary on individual passages from the Greek, and looks like even though Catholic, his learning forced him to accept what the bible taught as true.


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## Dachaser (Aug 1, 2017)

Justified said:


> Just in case you're fretting about Roman Catholicism and worried "I might be damned because I've been exposed to Roman Catholicism and am rejecting it", don't worry. Whether or not Catholicism is right about it's various claims (sacramental priesthood, apostolic succession, etc.), God is a much more loving God than to damn those who are just trying to follow your conscience and follow the Lord. He's not going to find reasons to damn you. If that's how you think about God-- and I have thought about God this way in the past-- please reassess what you think about God.
> 
> Hope that was helpful.


What is all important is what Jesus said, and not any church in the end, for he stated that he will out none that come unto Him.


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## Anglicanorthodoxy (Aug 1, 2017)

Justified said:


> Just in case you're fretting about Roman Catholicism and worried "I might be damned because I've been exposed to Roman Catholicism and am rejecting it", don't worry. Whether or not Catholicism is right about it's various claims (sacramental priesthood, apostolic succession, etc.), God is a much more loving God than to damn those who are just trying to follow your conscience and follow the Lord. He's not going to find reasons to damn you. If that's how you think about God-- and I have thought about God this way in the past-- please reassess what you think about God.
> 
> Hope that was helpful.


I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that's what Rome teaches, or is that directed at me.


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## Gforce9 (Aug 1, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I had one of his books on the Greek NT, was like a commentary on individual passages from the Greek, and looks like even though Catholic, his learning forced him to accept what the bible taught as true.



To my knowledge, Fitzmyer never renounced his belief in Catholicism. I'm not sure one can say that he accepted what the Bible said is true....... He admitted it, but whether he believed it is a whole 'nother matter....


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## Justified (Aug 1, 2017)

Anglicanorthodoxy said:


> I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that's what Rome teaches, or is that directed at me.


 I think that's what the more irenic side of Rome teaches. And it was meant to help you in case you're thinking about Catholicism. I've noticed you have asked a couple times about Roman Catholicism, and sometimes that is symptomatic of someone who is actively inquiring about Roman Catholicism.

If things still aren't clear, I can try again.


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## Anglicanorthodoxy (Aug 1, 2017)

Justified said:


> I think that's what the more irenic side of Rome teaches. And it was meant to help you in case you're thinking about Catholicism. I've noticed you have asked a couple times about Roman Catholicism, and sometimes that is symptomatic of someone who is actively inquiring about Roman Catholicism.
> 
> If things still aren't clear, I can try again.


Thanks. To be clear, I am NOT thinking about Roman Catholicism.( if what you mean by "thinking" is considering becoming Catholic)I attended a Catholic high school, and have many Catholic friends and teachers, so I'm interested in Roman theology to a certain extent. I ask a lot of these questions because I want to be able to have a good response to any Catholic friends who might challenge me. One of the best articles I've read on Catholicism is here
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=179


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## Dachaser (Aug 2, 2017)

Gforce9 said:


> To my knowledge, Fitzmyer never renounced his belief in Catholicism. I'm not sure one can say that he accepted what the Bible said is true....... He admitted it, but whether he believed it is a whole 'nother matter....


There are saved within the Church of Rome, and he may well have been one of them, its just strange that once redeemed, would still choose to be part of that church.


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## Gforce9 (Aug 2, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> There are saved within the Church of Rome, and he may well have been one of them, its just strange that once redeemed, would still choose to be part of that church.



I'm aware that there are a some of the true Son in Rome. For the ignorant or simpleton, it is easier to understand why one may stay there...it is a case of sheer ignorance. Someone who knows Paul's writings on some scholarly level, intellectually ascents to them to the degree of saying it appears the Protestant view is harmonious with Paul, and doesn't deny an alternate/competing view of Justification (his Romanism).....much harder case to make........


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## Dachaser (Aug 2, 2017)

Gforce9 said:


> I'm aware that there are a some of the true Son in Rome. For the ignorant or simpleton, it is easier to understand why one may stay there...it is a case of sheer ignorance. Someone who knows Paul's writings on some scholarly level, intellectually ascents to them to the degree of saying it appears the Protestant view is harmonious with Paul, and doesn't deny an alternate/competing view of Justification (his Romanism).....much harder case to make........


Agreed, as he would be int he very awkward situation of from the Greek text agreeing with Pauline Justification, and yet remaining in a church that denies it at the same time.


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