# Are Calvinists Hypocrites?



## Reformed Roman (Aug 20, 2011)

I just thought about this, and really wanted some help on it. I may have brought it up in the past, but I wanted to have a deep discussion on Justification-Sanctification.

I have had a hard time understanding the depths of Justification and how it relates to Sanctification.

Basically:

Arminians say Justification is by grace. Sure. Dig deep enough though, and you find out that the grace gives us an "option", and then it's up to us to choose. If we choose God they say it's by grace, because God's grace enabled the choice. If we choose sin and hell, they say it's because of us and our nature. Or just us and our sin.

Well in sancitifcation. My understanding of what Calvanists say is basically the same thing that Arminians say in Justification.

In sanctification, we are now free from sin by God's grace, and by God's grace alone do we make good decisions, but in the end, I can choose to read my Bible, I can choose to do this or that,

if we do good, we say it's because God gave us the desire, etc. But in the end, it was our choice.

I don't actually think Calvanists are hypocritical. I would like a good explanation of the difference. And a deep explanation on how Sanctification works with Justification. Because that's always been a struggle for me to understand.

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

And again, forgive me if I've had a similar post in the past. I just wanted it to be discussed in detailed and also have the hypocrite thing addressed as well.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach,

First, it is "Calvinist", not "Calvanist". 

Second, on Justfication here is a good start. Likewise for sanctification, see here.

In general, the WCF is a good resource for Scripturally based summaries of the major doctrines of the Reformed faith: WCF


AMR


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## Iconoclast (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach


> In sanctification, *we are now free from sin by God's grace*, and by God's grace alone do we make good decisions, but in the end, I can choose to read my Bible, I can choose to do this or that,



We are free from the reigning power of sin.....but not free from sin itself until the eternal state. 


> 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
> 
> 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
> 
> 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



Our freedom is only the freedom to serve God. We are called to be used as instruments of God in this lost and dying world.


> 11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
> 
> 12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
> 
> ...



God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure;


> 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
> 
> 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> ...



Joyful obedience to all known commands,mortification of sin, giving diligence to make your calling and election sure...will provide a biblical assurance of salvation......and keep you from much hypocrisy.


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## pre-seminary? (Aug 20, 2011)

I would say that our sanctification is only a matter of choice in a similar way to our 'decision' to come to Christ (although it may seem as though we made some personal decision, it cannot happen if God does not will it so). For even our good works God has "prepared i advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2).


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## py3ak (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> I just thought about this, and really wanted some help on it. I may have brought it up in the past, but I wanted to have a deep discussion on Justification-Sanctification.
> 
> I have had a hard time understanding the depths of Justification and how it relates to Sanctification.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you are actually asking whether Calvinists are _inconsistent_ rather than _hypocritical_. Hypocrisy implies a conscious dissimulation, whereas inconsistency implies only that one part of their doctrinal position does not entirely correspond with another.

Then to the actual question, here is a profound but brief discussion:


> *Question 75:* _What is sanctification?_
> 
> *Answer:* Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.
> 
> ...


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## Micah Everett (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach Rohman said:


> Arminians say Justification is by grace. Sure. Dig deep enough though, and you find out that the grace gives us an "option", and then it's up to us to choose. If we choose God they say it's by grace, because God's grace enabled the choice. If we choose sin and hell, they say it's because of us and our nature. Or just us and our sin.
> 
> Well in sancitifcation. My understanding of what Calvanists say is basically the same thing that Arminians say in Justification.
> 
> ...



There's a difference you're overlooking. Arminians believe that we have the ability to choose or not choose to confess Christ, and we might just as easily choose to confess Him as not. Calv*i*nists (I agree with AMR. Spelling is important) believe--and the Bible teaches--that the same God that wrought saving faith in us unto justification will just as surely work sanctification in us, as well. After all, if it is impossible for us to be snatched out of the Father's hand (John 10), and if without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12), then all true believers *will* be sanctified. Are we perfectly sanctified in this life? No (Romans 7), nor do we in every instance choose to act according to the new nature. Is sanctification something in which we actively and deliberately take part? Yes; we are to strive (Luke 13) and run (Hebrews 12), after all. 

Just as God's elect *will* choose to confess Christ unto justification, they *will* choose those actions that work sanctification. We have the "choice," but praise God, the Spirit within makes our choosing to pursue holiness inevitable, albeit imperfectly in this life.


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## Prufrock (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach, if you pay careful attention to some of your word choices, you should begin to see why these things are different.

Sanctification is not simply God giving you a *desire*. You could give a paralyzed man all the _desire_ in the world to walk, but this doesn't change anything - he still cannot walk. Likewise, you could have all the desire for holy actions placed in you, but it still would not allow you to do one ounce of good. In sanctification our very natures are renewed: we are freed from the power, dominion and control of sin and death. While your will plays a role in your various actions, your will does not play any role whatsoever in this: it is entirely of God.

What separates justification from sanctification here is that justification is purely receptive: it is simply a pronouncement, a change in our legal status. It is not a change in our persons, nor does it produce any change in us. This is not the case with sanctification, which is an actual change in a volitional creature. Sanctification shares a monergistic foundation with justification - its source is entirely from God: you cannot bring it about in any way; but because sanctification involves an actual change in you, your will and your actions, it involves a consequent and subsequent element of co-operation which could not exist with justification.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 20, 2011)

Regeneration is Monergistic while Sanctification can be both Monergistic and Synergistic. Those are two terms you might want to familiarize yourself with.


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## Reformed Roman (Aug 20, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Regeneration is Monergistic while Sanctification can be both Monergistic and Synergistic. Those are two terms you might want to familiarize yourself with.


 
I understand that. I've always seen it that way. God does some things in sanctification that are Monergistic but he also calls us to do some things and work with Him, making it Syngergistic as well.

It's just a very hard balance between Justification and Sanctification that I'm trying to understand in a deeper way


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 20, 2011)

Well Zach, We first need to be resurrected because we are spiritually dead. A dead man can not respond. So the initial work of God in Salvation is to make us regenerate first like Lazarus from the grave or as the soldiers in Ezekiel. Everything flows from that.



> (Joh 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
> 
> (Joh 1:13) * Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.*


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 20, 2011)

Let me see if I am understanding you a bit more clearer Zach. Are you trying to figure out how sanctification is operative and distinct from regeneration? Or are you trying to understand Justification in relation to how faith as a response is differing? Are you wondering about how the responsiveness operates? I think I might be understanding your question a bit more.


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## Reformed Roman (Aug 20, 2011)

1 thing I wanted to figure out is how are we so different from them? What arminians hold to in Justification, we seem to hold to in Sanctification,

how is it really by God's grace if we are needed to be operated through? And after all, in Sanctification, it's something God does. Yet I have a free choice in the matter. Understanding how Sanctification operates purely on grace, yet also working through man is tough.

My point is from how I've seen it, Calvinists seem to be similar to Arminians in this fact. We claim it's all by grace but then it comes down to our choices at times too. We bash Arminians for viewing things that way in Justification (and rightly so) but say that the grace they believe in, is not true grace.

Well what makes the grace we believe in, "true grace" in Sanctification. Doesn't God have to do it ALL to get the glory? If it comes down to our choices in Sanctification, aren't we trying to contribute to something that we can't add to (our Sanctification) .


Hope that makes more sense


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## Prufrock (Aug 20, 2011)

Zach, if you will read comment 8 above, you will find an explanation as to why they are, in fact, fundamentally different. Is there an aspect of that explanation you would like expanded?

If one claims that a decision or a choice precedes their rebirth, then they not only claim to co-operate in sanctification through their works, but claim to have a part in bringing about the new nature itself. That is far different from any Reformed accounting of sanctification.


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## Peairtach (Aug 20, 2011)

Definitive sanctification/regeneration is God's work alone.

Ongoing sanctification involves interaction between the regenerate soul - which would never have been regenerate but for God's grace - and the Holy Spirit.

But for any progressive sanctification and good works done all the glory goes to God for having regenerated that soul and enabled it to do such good works - which in this life are always imperfect.

In justification Jesus has fulfilled all righteousness in order that we can be justified. In justification we are talking about _Christ's_ life of righteousness _for_ us. In sanctification we are talking about _our_ (imperfect) life of righteousness for _His glory_. 

In progressive sanctification - which could only happen to justified and regenerate people - God is now working with a spiritually living soul, to enable it to make progress in mortifying sin and living unto God and righteousness. God is happy to work with that soul, and covenantally committed to working with that soul, so that it makes progress.

But the exercised Christian soul will ascribe all the glory for his regeneration and, also, progress in sanctification to God. The regeneration and ongoing supplies of divine power are from God. Also God in His providence is working in and through us to produce the fruit He intended as regenerate souls co-operate or don't co-operate with Him.

Unregenerate souls - on the other hand - are spiritually dead and morally bound by sin.


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## Andres (Aug 20, 2011)

Others have already said it much better than I, but justification and sanctification are different. To compare how Arminians view one and Calvinists view the other is apples to oranges.


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## jwithnell (Aug 20, 2011)

A _consistent_ Arminian would assert that you can lose your salvation by not following through with your sanctification. The fifth point of Remonstrance:


> Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.


 You choose to "be saved" and you choose good and bad works and you better be on the right side of that scale when you die. But you rarely see consistent Arminians which is why you hear of odd creatures that are 3 or 4 point Calvinists?!? because they want to hold to perseverance of the saints. The source of your confusion here may be the Arminian inconsistencies.

I heard Dr. Richard Gaffin speak on the relationship of justification and sanctification particularly as they relate to modern errors. (I'm digging back 8 years in my memory!) He said most errors occur in both doctrines because of an undo emphasis of one over the other and a failure to recognize God's sovereignty in both processes. You see, for example, in the liberal protestant churches a desire to do good works but not so much of an emphasis on being justified before God. In many evangelical circles, justification is over-emphasized (the purpose of the church is to save souls) without the regard for sanctification and the need to grow in Christ-likeness.

In my way of framing the issue, we run into error when we don't keep a careful balance of recognizing man's responsibility and God's sovereignty in both justification and sanctification. Unbelievers are fully responsible for not bowing their knee to Christ. We are fully responsible to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Yet we can only be justified and sanctified by God's grace alone. I believe Calvinists are fully consistent in recognizing God's grace and our responsibility in justification and sanctification.


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## Reformed Roman (Aug 21, 2011)

I guess I was hoping for some really distinct views on Sanctification basically.

I'm also wanting people to address the inconsistency... (Basically that Sanctification couldn't happen without grace, but it also depends on us)

I'm not looking for a dictionary definition of Justification or Sanctification. I know that. I know what they are in general. I'm looking for some good specifics on how we cooperate, and basically how our cooperating, isn't sanctifying us by works. If we are sanctified by works (in your view), I would like scripture of course.

And regardless, with us cooperating with God in Sanctification... how is it not inconsistent for us to cooperate? We say that Arminians don't know true grace many times, because they say we "cooperate" in Justification. While I don't totally agree with that, regardless I would like to see the line of thinking of some of you, as to how God uses our cooperation and what makes this grace..

I hope that makes some sense. I really just want to get really deep into sanctification here, and figure out how exactly do we work into sanctification? And knowing I'm a slacker many times and don't do the things I should do, and I get down on myself sometimes because I'm slacking... I think much of the reason I get so down is because I think I sanctify myself, and I know I can't do it, and I know it's by grace. I just want to understand that grace in Sanctification in a deeper way, and understand how to play my part.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 21, 2011)

. 


Zach Rohman said:


> I'm not looking for a dictionary definition of Justification or Sanctification. I know that. I know what they are in general. I'm looking for some good specifics on how we cooperate, and basically how our cooperating, isn't sanctifying us by works. If we are sanctified by works (in your view), I would like scripture of course



Zach, Sanctification is a matter of the heart that produces works. Our works don't produce sanctification. Our works and obedience are products of our regenerate hearts.



> (Luk 6:44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
> 
> (Luk 6:45) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.



You would greatly benefit from this work I think. [h=1]The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification by Walter Marshall[/h]http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/GospelMystery.pdf


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## steadfast7 (Aug 21, 2011)

Zach, let's back it up. Before even speaking of justification and sanctification, I think at the heart of it, you are struggling with something that all of us struggle with and will never truly make sense of in our finite minds: the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I believe that practically, Arminians and Calvinists are doing essentially the same thing: responding to God's grace through reasoned decisions and actions. The irreconcilable difference is the starting point in anthropology. Arminians view man as sick, but capable of choosing the good for themselves; Calvinists view man as dead in incapable of choosing the good unless graciously granted. Whether one is Arminian or Calvinist, the Holy Spirit is operating the same way in the lives of the elect. Calvinist simply rightly attribute emphasis on God's grace; Arminians emphasize man's autonomous choices.


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## Peairtach (Aug 21, 2011)

*Zach*


> And regardless, with us cooperating with God in Sanctification... how is it not inconsistent for us to cooperate?



It's not inconsistent for us to co-operate in progressive sanctification because God has made us alive in definitive sanctification/regeneration by His grace, thus making it possible for us to co-operate.

Also in progressive sanctification and good works, everything is as yet imperfect, and we are not relying on our progressive sanctification and good works for us to be right with God.

At another level, anything that we do or don't do is in God's Providence.


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## Reformed Roman (Aug 21, 2011)

Peairtach said:


> *Zach*
> 
> 
> > And regardless, with us cooperating with God in Sanctification... how is it not inconsistent for us to cooperate?
> ...



Arminians basically believe in Justification though, that God through His grace, made it possible for us to choose Him... A very similar concept to what I've seen some believe on Sanctification within Reformed circles

---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------




steadfast7 said:


> Zach, let's back it up. Before even speaking of justification and sanctification, I think at the heart of it, you are struggling with something that all of us struggle with and will never truly make sense of in our finite minds: the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I believe that practically, Arminians and Calvinists are doing essentially the same thing: responding to God's grace through reasoned decisions and actions. The irreconcilable difference is the starting point in anthropology. Arminians view man as sick, but capable of choosing the good for themselves; Calvinists view man as dead in incapable of choosing the good unless graciously granted. Whether one is Arminian or Calvinist, the Holy Spirit is operating the same way in the lives of the elect. Calvinist simply rightly attribute emphasis on God's grace; Arminians emphasize man's autonomous choices.




Also, for the record let me say, just because I bring up a contrary point or something like this, doesn't mean I believe something different. But I am challenging you all for the very reason mentioned above.

Lately I've had a real sense of dread to be honest. Not just lately but for a few months. At times I wonder where it came from, and maybe this is for another thread. But I find myself always searching myself, seeing if it's because of my sin. Perhaps that dread is conviction that God is giving me and He is wanting me to change. I have a strong sense of my sins before God, my unworthiness, yet sometimes I feel I'm prideful, and I can sense even the pride I have. I get down on myself because of how I live and sometimes I would think that's where the dread comes from.

Yet I find myself wrestling in the midst of it with many different things. One thing being God's sovereignty vs Man's responsibility. I know I'm responsible, yet I know many things in me can't change apart from God's sovereignty. When I don't read my Bible enough, many times it's because this dread hangs around. It keeps me out of the word, and even when I go to approach the Word it's as if the very dread gets stronger. When I trust in Christ's work and righteousness, it dulls, but eventually it intensifies again.

So I wrestle deep down with several issues. How can I change to where I seek God more? I know it's only by His grace, and I can't change my own heart. Yet when it seems God isn't working, I have to strive to read my Bible anyway, and pray, and God works through these means to sanctify us. Yet in myself I know I don't have these strong desires to do these things, and through me I won't be sanctified. So I get down on myself sometimes and don't read. It's really a vicious cycle at times, and even when I get in my Word I'm just in a season of dullness and I have been for a while.

And again, in the midst of this season I find myself trying to get deeper and deeper into how Sanctification works, how I can change, what would make me feel like this, and how I can have that peace? For even when I trust and rest in the right things lately it hasn't been there. So I posted this to challenge you all to help me understand these things deeper, and to help renew me on things that I'm struggling with.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 21, 2011)

Zach, I'm just a housewife and not a theologian, but I know how you feel and will be praying for you. I think the principle of the Sabbath is so helpful, not just as it relates to reminding us that the main thing in life is to worship our God; but as it relates to reminding us that in salvation -- all the way from beginning to end, all our life long -- we rest from our labours when we come to Him, and rest in His. God will sanctify His people. That's a promise. The first day of the week reminds us to rest in it, and praise Him for it. We can go out and 'work' only in the strength of this rest.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 21, 2011)

PS. If I've understood some of the responses correctly, then justification is by definition not something we do at all, because it is the act of God pronouncing us righteous in Christ. We don't 'act' at all in justification, God does. 'Justification is an act of God's free grace' etc. Whereas sanctification by definition involves our own actions, our own will -- here, we act because God works in us. The difference then between the Arminian and Reformed view, besides what was pointed out about the differing views of man's nature, would also be a difference in the way we and they define what justification and sanctification even are -- because of a difference in the way we and they define who is acting. The problem conceptually is not that the Reformed don't also believe that God gives grace to enable us to do things, where our action is appropriate; but that one changes the whole nature of salvation in making justification that kind of synergistic action, instead of an entirely monergistic one? Again I'm so very not a theologian (Ruben was just remarking on my amazing ability to muddle things this afternoon  and feel hesitant to say that, but I've also carried a lot of confusion about this, and it would be nice to know that I've at least understood some of the foregoing explanations correctly.


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## jwithnell (Aug 21, 2011)

> Whereas sanctification by definition involves our own actions, our own will -- here, we act because God works in us.


 Not trying to pick on you Heidi, and 20 years ago this statement would not have caused me to take a second look, but there are some reformed churches and seminary professors teaching exactly what you are saying here but in a blunter form: basically that man has to work toward his sanctification. 

It's taken me a long time to learn that ANY good work, any growth, any ability to praise and love God comes by grace, we are totally dependent upon Him. As the WCF puts it:


> Their (Christians) ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ."



We are certainly responsible. And God has given us the inclination to now _want_ to do things to become conformed to Christ, but we cannot do so without His intervention. I am becoming convinced that one of the major vehicles for God's work in our lives is through prayer. He gives graciously!

Zach, I wonder if a careful reading through the Biblical texts given with the WCF Chapters 11, 13 and 16 might be beneficial? Particularly Chapter 16 which, if I'm hearing you, might be more of the issue than sanctification itself. And I don't mean to sound all mystical or something but I really think the the operation of sanctification becomes clearer as we live many years in the faith. When we see how God disciplines us and sends difficulties and sorrows into our lives, and carries us through! Learning to "give thanks in all things" comes after many, many times when we've been challenged to turn our eyes from our circumstances and to praise and love God through our tears. In other words, you will not move much past a definition of sanctification until you've lived it.


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## py3ak (Aug 21, 2011)

Zach, while there are many things that might be helpful in the wider area of the struggle that you describe, such as a clear grasp of the doctrines of justification and adoption and fervent meditation on their experiential benefits, to the precise point at issue I think you should take this text as your guiding light: Philippians 2:12,13 - _Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure._

And read this article written about this verse, which deliberately sets out to explain the coordination of grace and duty in the matter of sanctification:
Co-ordination of Grace and Duty - The Westminster Presbyterian


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## a mere housewife (Aug 22, 2011)

Jean, please don't worry about picking on me.  I'm sure I must have simply mis-stated, because I don't disagree with your clarification about how we can do simply nothing that God does not enable us to do. As Ruben cited, we work out our own salvation, because 'it is God that works in us'. It's nice to see you around by the way -- I hope you and your family are well.


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