# Dress in Worship, spin off



## he beholds (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi. I am sure this has been talked about before on PB. I did search, but for some reason I could only view single posts; I didn't read every individual post separately, so I don't know if that thread was about women and modesty or appropriate attire for all. My question is about appropriate attire for all: Is there such a thing?

I'm spinning off from the Vestment Wars VII, where Nathan E. asked if requiring robes and such of our teaching elders is a biblical standard. 

Can a specific type of dress at all (even suits/ties for the men or sunday best dresses for the women) be supported by the Scriptures? For the elders _or_ the laity? I know I've heard at least one mention of proper dress from the pulpit.

For the argument's sake, modesty is not an issue. Considering two equally modest outfits, could one be more appropriate than the other?

I bet it seems that I am asking this question only to share my opinion. I admit that I do have an opinion, *but*, I don't have a "this-is-supported-by-Scripture," opinion, _and_ my stance is not firm on this issue.
I am sincerely asking what the Bible requires of us♥

Shalom, 
jessi


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## LawrenceU (Dec 9, 2008)

I've never seen anything in Scripture that says we have to up the ante on our wardrobe for attending corporate worship services.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 9, 2008)

The only reference I can think of is James 2 which seems to me to clearly teach that the "law of liberty" applies when it comes to dress in worship. While it is perfectly right to decide between you and God how you will dress when you worship, we shouldn't have set dress standards for the congregation. 



> James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
> 
> 5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
> 
> 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty



Though James is comparing favoring rich over the poor, he also addresses the attitude which is one of favoritism and judging of motives. As soon as a standard is set for clothing in worship, it sets up the rest of the congregation a rule for judging whether a person is fit or not to be in worship. 

Most of you have probably been in a church where everyone turned their head because of the way a man or woman dressed when she walked into worship. I was told just the other day about a poor man was escorted out of a local church because he smelled and dressed badly. While I doubt that the reformed churches represented here have that kind of problem, I do think we are all capable (and probably have at one time or another) looked down on someone for not being more considerate of their dress when they walked into worship. All that should be put aside when we step into the assembly of God's people.


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## APuritansMind (Dec 9, 2008)

I believe we see in Scripture the principal of offering God only our best. This includes our hearts, our singing, our prayers, our praise, our offerings, and our dress. I have always dressed the best I can for worship. If my best is a suit and tie, then that's what I wear. If someone's best is a pair of jeans and T shirt, then that's fine by me. A casual manner of dress, accompanied with a casual manner of approaching God, would be an error.


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## he beholds (Dec 9, 2008)

APuritansMind said:


> I believe we see in Scripture the principal of offering God only our best. This includes our hearts, our singing, our prayers, our praise, our offerings, and our dress. I have always dressed the best I can for worship. If my best is a suit and tie, then that's what I wear. If someone's best is a pair of jeans and T shirt, then that's fine by me. A casual manner of dress, *accompanied with a casual manner of approaching God,* would be an error.



Is that the key phrase, or will you always approach God with a casual manner if you are dressed as such?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 9, 2008)

he beholds said:


> Hi. I am sure this has been talked about before on PB. I did search, but for some reason I could only view single posts; I didn't read every individual post separately, so I don't know if that thread was about women and modesty or appropriate attire for all.





Jessica,

It is likely that you are just using the basic search feature. Instead, select "advanced search" which brings up the attached box, and search there.


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## Classical Presbyterian (Dec 9, 2008)

I always draw on the texts that speak of our reverence for the holy, in BOTH testaments. I think these lead to some pretty clear _general _principles, especially when paired with the James text and the modesty guidelines.

If you've got a perfectly good pair of slacks and a decent ironed shirt and instead choose to wear jeans and a polo to worship, what does that say about our being in the presence of the_ holy_?


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## Prufrock (Dec 9, 2008)

APuritansMind said:


> I believe we see in Scripture the principal of offering God only our best. This includes our hearts, our singing, our prayers, our praise, our offerings, and our dress. I have always dressed the best I can for worship. If my best is a suit and tie, then that's what I wear. If someone's best is a pair of jeans and T shirt, then that's fine by me. A casual manner of dress, accompanied with a casual manner of approaching God, would be an error.



I don't know if this is right or not (or if there even if a right), but practically speaking I do the opposite. I wear at least a tie every other day of the week, and Sunday is the day where I (normally) take of the tie and unbutton the top button. I don't have to worry about formality and earthly appearance when I gather for worship as I do when I go to work: it is a day off from my earthly cares and concerns where I can focus solely upon the heavenly, upon our God and his Spiritual worship in the church. I'm not a slob (all I've done is taken my tie off...), but I feel more free on Sunday, less restricted in what I have to wear.


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## he beholds (Dec 9, 2008)

Wow--there are some good answers on here, on both sides!
Not helping...
I can say that I would be distracted by a casually dressed pastor, but I don't think that that should be _why_ he should dress more formally. I would think that if it were not biblical to put those constraints on a pastor, he would need to teach us this so that we can get past it, though. And we actually chose not to go back to one church in part because the time we visited, the pastor was dressed in a polo and stood up front with his arms crossed and very casual looking. But even so, this may have been wrong of us...


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## Kim G (Dec 9, 2008)

APuritansMind said:


> I believe we see in Scripture the principal of offering God only our best. This includes our hearts, our singing, our prayers, our praise, our offerings, and our dress. I have always dressed the best I can for worship.



I guess I need to pull out my formal ballgown.


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## APuritansMind (Dec 9, 2008)

he beholds said:


> APuritansMind said:
> 
> 
> > I believe we see in Scripture the principal of offering God only our best. This includes our hearts, our singing, our prayers, our praise, our offerings, and our dress. I have always dressed the best I can for worship. If my best is a suit and tie, then that's what I wear. If someone's best is a pair of jeans and T shirt, then that's fine by me. A casual manner of dress, *accompanied with a casual manner of approaching God,* would be an error.
> ...



The heart disposition is always the more important issue and that cannot be determined from manner of dress. We have folks that dress casually, when they have better, but they do not approach worship casually. I don't believe a person's heart is always reflected by their dress. That includes both ends of the spectrum. 

On a Lord's Day morning I will have on a suit and tie. For a Thursday prayer meeting I may arrive straight from work dressed "business casual." A person dressed in jeans, T shirt, and sandals may have a much better heart disposition than me on either (or both) occassion(s). There are also cultures in which casual dress is very acceptable to all.


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 9, 2008)

Classical Presbyterian said:


> I always draw on the texts that speak of our reverence for the holy, in BOTH testaments. I think these lead to some pretty clear _general _principles, especially when paired with the James text and the modesty guidelines.
> 
> If you've got a perfectly good pair of slacks and a decent ironed shirt and instead choose to wear jeans and a polo to worship, *what does that say about our being in the presence of the holy*?



The problem with this argument (and I do wear a dumb tie to church, BTW) is that in the New Covenant the holy is WITH US and resides WITH US at all times. In the Old Economy, men and women had to go to a house to worship God- and that is where he resided. It was appropriate to have rituals of preparation to go and meet God in the OT. 

In the NT, God resides within us (Do you not know that YOU are the temple of the Holy Ghost). 

If the reverence for the house of God argument is made- then you have to dress formally at ALL TIMES, since the very God of Heaven and Earth resides within you. 

I do not see anywhere in the NT where formality can be supported. Reverence, yes. Respect, yes. Honor, yes. But we cannot impose our ideas of formality onto God. His Word does not do it- and since His Word does not have a requirement- we cannot bind men to such things. 

I am afraid this is what happens so many times in our Reformed churches- we have some well intentioned person that makes the respect and honor argument and then either makes people feel inadequate to be in God's presence, or outright judges them for their lack of respect 'in the house of God' (Which is another false idea that we have... don't get me started.  )

If it cannot be supported by the Scriptures, then we have no buisness making a theology of dress code. 

The NT requires modesty and lack of judging others based on what they wear or do not wear. If those two are in order- then we can say nothing else.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 9, 2008)

APuritansMind said:


> If someone's best is a pair of jeans and T shirt, then that's fine by me. A casual manner of dress, accompanied with a casual manner of approaching God, would be an error.



Unfortunately, there are many that assume that one is a show of the other when many times it is not the case.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 9, 2008)

Is not worship a matter of the heart?


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## VictorBravo (Dec 9, 2008)

It seems that the "decently and in order" command of 1 Corinth. 14 is the best guide. In other words, don't dress to attract attention to yourself.

If your "Sunday best" is chosen to impress, then it's probably the wrong outfit. That also includes "dressing down" to make a show of your liberty.


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## Mindaboo (Dec 9, 2008)

We attended a church where most of the people wore jeans and t-shirts to church and it was a very casual atmosphere. The worship service also became a very casual atmosphere. People would get up in the middle of the service, go make coffee and do other things. It was very distracting. The pastor hardly ever dressed in more than a button down shirt, no tie and a pair of khakis.

On the other hand, I went to a Southern Baptist Church two weeks ago, almost everyone there was wearing jeans or dressed casually and the service was very reverent. 

To me, the difference was the handling and respect of God's Word. The first church took so much liberty in things that it became ridiculous. The second church obviously held to certain liberties, but respected the Word of God above all else. It was pretty eye opening to me.

I think it comes down to the heart of the people. At our church that we now attend the people are dressed in a mixture of casual and dressier clothes. For my family, kids included we put on our best. For my son, that is a pair of jeans and a nice shirt, for my daughters' usually they wear a dress. I always wear a skirt/dress. I agree that the Holy Spirit is living within us, but Sunday is the day we offer up our first fruits to God, and to me, I think we should give our personal best. For some it is jeans and t-shirts, for others it is dress clothes. The Lord knows our hearts.


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## Scott1 (Dec 9, 2008)

It is great to know Puritan Board has an "advanced search" feature. With that, I found a much-viewed thread on this topic:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/sunday-best-casual-31254/

Since the original posts specifically is not focusing on the modesty aspect of clothing and dress, this becomes all the more difficult to define biblically. There is always some subjectivity in this.

As a general principle, the incomprehensible holiness God is does not lend itself to the pop culture notion, 


> "It doesn't matter what I wear, as long as I'm worshipping in my heart."


It's not a casual, ordinary thing to worship God corporately and it's not about the individual and how they feel at the moment, which are two important growth areas for every believer (God is holy; other people matter). We are told not to cause others to stumble (cf I Corinthians 10:32, Romans 14:21).

On one occassion, we had a preacher in the pulpit who was wearing an earring- a large, shiny earring. It distracted me and every time I looked at this fellow, I was distracted by it.

Setting aside possible biblical arguments against body piercing (i.e. Leviticus 19:28), and pragmatic health considerations associated with body piercing, this got to the point that I was not concentrating on the (good) Bible preaching this man was doing.

Now, that is perhaps a weakness I have.

Finally, knowing Scripture says to go privately to someone, I eventually got courage up to tell this fellow. I explained that I know he is gifted as a teacher of God's Word and I really do respect and want to hear his good teaching but somehow, I can't get past the distraction of his wearing an earring while expounding and propounding the Word in my direction.

To me, earrings on men symbolize either slavery or sexual immorality- and I don't like either one. 

No doubt, we will offend people with our dress unintentionally sometime, somewhere. However, we need to focus toward the holiness of God in corporate worship and what that might imply firstly and then consider what it implies to worship corporately (not only by oneself) and how we might affect others by such superficial things as dress.

(Incidentally, this Bible teacher's earring eventually came out, and I have on occassions since, benefited greatly from his teaching)


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## he beholds (Dec 9, 2008)

That other thread brought up the point of "going to meet the King," which is the argument I heard from a guest preacher once at our church. Is that a biblical idea?


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 9, 2008)

tough question!

I dress up, but at times it's been a sin for me because I've gone out and bought "NICE" stuff in order to wear it to church and like the many compliments I get. I shop at Western Wear shops and have many jackets that cost me nearly what I make in a week today! I still wear them but trust me, the pride is pretty much gone, but I do love the jackets 

I also honestly dress to honor God, I just have to do this 100% and kill the parts that honor myself or my pride in having clothing that is "unique" (I've yet to encounter anyone in a Church that owns what I won lol). I've had former Pastors parade me around the Church to show off my jackets! (that didn't help, but I also didn't say anything!)

So, all that to say I think we should dress as well as we can if we can do so without a bunch of pride. Those who can do so without any personal reasons solely to honor the King have my respect though!


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## Scott1 (Dec 9, 2008)

The fact that you are considering how dress behavior affects others at corporate worship is a good thing. It's a sign of growth understanding that "corporate" worship does involve other people and that it is focused on God, not us.

There has been much good exposition of the regulative principle of worship here on Puritan Board and that has certainly caused me to view some practices differently than only a short time ago.



> James 2:2-9
> 
> 1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
> 
> ...




This passage tells us not to treat people with favoritism based on the superficiality of clothing but to see them as of equal worth in the Lord. Hard to do, we must ask for God's grace to do this in our actions and minds.

Here's what I would think to do for the one with "vile raiment":

If it is truly a case of poverty (not likely in North America), I would want to get this person some suitable Sunday clothes. If he needs hygene skills, I would look to try and arrange that (i.e. YMCA).

If it's a careless attitude and disregard for the church and for others, that is very different, sin reflected in neglect, indifference, a total self focus.

If it's an unusual circumstance (drove all night from a funeral), then I would especially ask God for compassion.

The Christian life is full of conundrums- we are called to love the sinner, hate the sin. It is impossible but we must ask for faith to believe it can be done, and grace to do it.


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## Honor (Dec 9, 2008)

I have purposfully worn different styles because I had invited someone to church and they have said "I don't have a dress/suit and tie" so I have always responded "I'll wear x" I've dressed goth, rave chic,grunge, super formal, and jeans and t-shirt.And I want them to feel comfortable coming to church. I really think that your heart is all that matters.... right now I wear jeans and a t-shirt (I unfortunately don't fit into any of my dresses) but that's just me


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## Grymir (Dec 9, 2008)

As a poorer person, I just wear the nicest clothes that I have. Carhart's jeans and Carhart's shirt. They are the nicest I have right now. I also used to have a pair of steel-toed shoes that I wore just at church. They looked really nice! Although I had to use them at work, so they quit being used at church because they got too dirty. But if I was serving as a Deacon again, I'd were my only suit, the one I was married in.

I do think that we should wear the nicest that we have, no matter what it is. I like the going to the King. Or what if we were going to see the president? God is higher than the president.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 9, 2008)

he beholds said:


> That other thread brought up the point of "going to meet the King," which is the argument I heard from a guest preacher once at our church. Is that a biblical idea?



Yes, I wonder. 



> Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


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## yeutter (Dec 9, 2008)

As a youth I heard an old ruling elder say that we should come to church in the same attire as we would wear to court. If we would not wear something when we faced an earthly judge how dare we wear it in the house of God. 
I can not prove this from the Word of God; but I believe it is good advice.


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## Honor (Dec 10, 2008)

yeutter said:


> As a youth I heard an old ruling elder say that we should come to church in the same attire as we would wear to court. If we would not wear something when we faced an earthly judge how dare we wear it in the house of God.
> I can not prove this from the Word of God; but I believe it is good advice.


my only thought to this be the verse that says that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.


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