# Case of Conscience



## arapahoepark (Mar 25, 2018)

I am wondering if there are any Puritan Cases of Conscience regarding the idea that one must do well in and not fail or sin for God to hear or even answer prayers.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 25, 2018)

I'm not understanding; can you elaborate?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 25, 2018)

I will have to check Perkins work for any casuistry examples related to this. A discerning look at Baxter's _Directory_ might also be in order.

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## Scott Bushey (Mar 25, 2018)

Make the distinction between believers/unbelievers, omniscience/particular;

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet 3:7

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. John 9:31

But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. Isa 59:2

Heb 12

If I am understanding you, rebellion would surely hinder one's prayers.

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## arapahoepark (Mar 25, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I'm not understanding; can you elaborate?


That one's prayers will be heard or answered based upon their performance as a Christian (i.e. more mortification or backslidings, etc.).


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 25, 2018)

arapahoepark said:


> That one's prayers will be heard or answered based upon their performance as a Christian (i.e. more mortification or backslidings, etc.).


On a different question Durham says the following (Durham uses a lot of 'case divinity' or addresses cases of conscience in his sermons):
2. A good conscience has influence on or a connection with our obtaining a hearing in prayer and on our being confident that we shall get a hearing. For we know (says that poor man in John 9:31) “that God hears not sinners, but if any man do his will, he hears him.” And David says (Psalm 66:18), “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me”; and it is said in 1 John 3:22, “Whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do these things that are pleasing in his sight.” A good conscience is not indeed a meritorious cause of the hearing of prayer, yet God has established a connection between it and His hearing of prayer, and it has influence on our expecting a hearing and on our knowing that we shall get a hearing. _Collected Sermons of James Durham: 61 Sermons_ (NP and RHB, 2017), 363.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 25, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Make the distinction between believers/unbelievers, omniscience/particular;
> 
> Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet 3:7
> 
> ...


And to add, James says the prayers of a righteous man avails much.

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## arapahoepark (Mar 25, 2018)

A follow up question: Then in what sense can anyone pray and expect to be heard since no one is righteous?


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## Poimen (Mar 25, 2018)

arapahoepark said:


> A follow up question: Then in what sense can anyone pray and expect to be heard since no one is righteous?



You are righteous by faith in the mediator Christ, for he is our righteousness. But as other brothers have pointed out, our fellowship or relationship with God can be hindered by unconfessed sin (consider, in addition, Psalm 32:3-5). That is why, in part, Jesus teaches us to ask God to forgive us our sins and for us to forgive each other so that holy relationship is not interfered with or harmed.

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## Herald (Mar 25, 2018)

Poimen said:


> You are righteous by faith in the mediator Christ, for he is our righteousness. But as other brothers have pointed out, our fellowship or relationship with God can be hindered by unconfessed sin (consider, in addition, Psalm 32:3-5). That is why, in part, Jesus teaches us to ask God to forgive us our sins and for us to forgive each other so that holy relationship is not interfered with or harmed.


From personal experience, I know that sin affects our ability to pray or to pray as we ought. James tells us we ask and do not receive because we ask with wrong motives (Jas. 4:3). Part of that can be because, either our prayers are sinful or sin is influencing our prayers. 

What if we are struggling with sin? Does that hinder our prayers? How else can we confess our sins lest we pray (1 John 1:8-9)?

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## Pergamum (Mar 25, 2018)

I once mentioned the need for pastors to remain holy lest their sins render their ministry ineffective and was strangely rebuked by several Reformed Baptist pastors who asserted that the efficacy of our ministry did not reside in our own personal capabilities but in the Word of God alone.

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## py3ak (Mar 25, 2018)

David Dickson on Psalm 66:18 notes this:
Those onely are the sinners, whose prayer God will not hear, who live in the love of known sins, and pray for having satisfaction to their corrupt lusts. _If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me._​
John Gill explains in more detail: 
There was iniquity in his heart, as there is in every good man’s heart, and a great deal too; it is full of it; and it should be regarded in some sense, so as to guard against it, and pray to be kept from it, that it may not break forth into action; and so as to loath it, abhor it, and be humbled for it; but not so as to nourish and cherish it, to take delight and pleasure in it: or “if I look upon it”, as it may be rendered; that is, with approbation of it, and satisfaction in it, and ordered his conversation according to it; or acted the deceitful and hypocritical part in prayer; or had any evil intention in his petitions, to consume on his lusts what he asked for; 
_the Lord will not hear [me]_; for the Lord hears not sinners that delight in sin, and live in it; neither profane sinners nor hypocrites; (see John 9:31, Job 27:8,9).​
_Regarding _is not _having and hating_ but _cherishing and preserving_.

Our prayers are heard through Christ, the one who perfectly regarded not iniquity, and was always heard.

Heidelberg Catechism, q.117
*What belongs to such prayer which is acceptable to God and which He will hear?*
...third, that we be firmly assured, that notwithstanding our unworthiness, He will, for the sake of Christ our Lord, certainly hear our prayer, as He has promised us in His word.​

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## a mere housewife (Mar 25, 2018)

Trent, I think Richard Sibbes is famous for saying something to the effect of 'There is more grace in Christ than sin in me.' That seems to apply?

There is a distinction between sin that we _regard_ in our hearts and this feeling we have (which I maybe misunderstood but your questions seem to suggest) that we need to have a sort of period of good behavior in order to come to God and be blessed in Christ? I have struggled a lot with the latter.

But what moral resources do we have to do well and not to fall, apart from Him? How could we become a one bit cleaner and better version of ourself independently of Him, to be good enough for His presence? The pagans arrived at that -- the idea that we need to better ourselves to approach God. And they also realised that we can't. A prayer life based on that is about moralism, not Christianity. I doubt the Puritans sanctioned it.

I read Isaiah 53 yesterday morning and was struck again with this amazing redemption at the heart of God's love for us and our lives for Him. Sin is a devastating problem for humanity as a whole and for each human in particular. But there is a place where it is carried away. God's own back. And He doesn't refuse to touch us when we are covered in our sins -- He came into our defilement to save us. He takes our hand each time, wherever we are, and helps us on.

*Regarding* sin in the heart which hinders prayer (surely not that God can't hear but that our comfort of fellowship is broken?) is different than the persistent struggles and recurring falls we will have till we die. Regarding sin means I am hiding and guarding some favorite sin from God, rather than taking and exposing my struggles to Him, asking Him to shine His light there too, in that dark part of me. 

I think there is something in Christ's wrath over His Father's house, the 'house of prayer', being made a place for barter that speaks to more than just commerce. Prayer is the open hand of the morally resourceless. The poorest person, spiritually speaking, can always pray. Jesus always stopped for beggars. Because what we get from God isn't about what we bring to God in exchange. It's just utter need of His goodness, every way. I have realised this more every year of my Christian life, and increasingly it sets me free. Psalm 25 is very precious to me, v. 8, 'Good and upright is the Lord; therefore he instructs sinners in the way.' In this disciple-teacher relationship, His goodness is enough for both. I also notice in 11-15 that an occasion of guilt and of needing forgiveness is not incompatible with coming to the Lord, being among those who fear the Lord, being blessed by the Lord, being the friend of the Lord, leaning into the Lord as our only help from falling. It is actually the first link there in that chain of mercies.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 26, 2018)

Perkins outlines three conditions for prayer. The conditions are summarized below and the full treatment is contained in the attachment.

Source:


Spoiler








See also:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A09365.0001.001?view=toc
http://digitalpuritan.net/william-perkins/


*How shall man make a lawful and acceptable prayer to God?*

The Word of God requires many conditions in making prayer unto God: they may all be brought three heads. Some of them go before the making of prayer, some are to be performed in the act of prayer, some after prayer is ended.

*Conditions to be offered before prayer, are three.*
First, he that would make such a prayer as God may be pleased to hear must repent.
Secondly, before a man make a prayer he must first (if need require) be reconciled unto his brother.
Thirdly, he that is to pray,must prepare himself in heart and mind, as one that is to speak familiary with God.

*The second sort of Conditions, are those that are required in prayer, and they are in number eight.*
1. Every petition must proceed from a lively sense and feeling of our own wants, and of our spiritual poverty.
2. Our prayer must proceed from an earnest desire of that grace which we want: and this desire is indeed prayer itself.
3. The petition must proceed from saving and true justifying faith.
4. Every petition must be grounded upon the Word of God, and not framed according to the carnal and fancy of man's brain.
5. Our prayers being thus framed are to be presented and offered to God alone, and to none but him.
6. Prayer is to be presented to God, in the name, merit, and meditation of Christ alone.
7. The must be in prayer, Instancy and Perseverance. The heart must be instant, not only in the act of prayer, but afterwards, till the thing asked, be granted.
8. Every true prayer must have in it form thanksgiving unto God for his benefits.

*The third sort of conditions are those, which are required after prayer; and they are specially two.*
The first is a particular faith, whereby he that prayeth, must be assured that his paticular request shall be granted.
The second is, that man must do and practice that, which he prays for; and he is not only praying for blessings, but also to use all the lawful means he can, whereby the blessing he asketh, may be obtained.​

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## Von (Mar 26, 2018)

*WCF Ch XVIII*
_IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation;_

Now logic tells me that if your assurance is 'shaken or diminished', you will not approach God in the following manner:

*1)* _And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 
(Hebrews 11:6)_
Is this faith/assurance not hindered when you sin?

*2)* _But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 
(James 1:6-7)_
Same idea. It's interesting that Perkins puts it 'after prayer'.


Ask Mr. Religion said:


> *The third sort of conditions are those, which are required after prayer; and they are specially two.*
> The first is a particular faith, whereby he that prayeth, must be assured that his paticular request shall be granted.


 
God does not change, but your prayers or the heart from which it issues might.


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## bookslover (Mar 26, 2018)

arapahoepark said:


> That one's prayers will be heard or answered based upon their performance as a Christian (i.e. more mortification or backslidings, etc.).



So, salvation by grace but prayer by works? If prayer is based on Christian performance, there would be no point in praying at all because we constantly sin in thought, word, and deed.

Prayer is by grace, too. Believers are regarded, by God, as His children. And, even though His children sin, He still graciously hears and answers our prayers. We still have our responsibility and privilege to live our lives by following Christ, of course. But, a gracious Father listens to His children.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 26, 2018)

bookslover said:


> So, salvation by grace but prayer by works? If prayer is based on Christian performance, there would be no point in praying at all because we constantly sin in thought, word, and deed.
> 
> Prayer is by grace, too. Believers are regarded, by God, as His children. And, even though His children sin, He still graciously hears and answers our prayers. We still have our responsibility and privilege to live our lives by following Christ, of course. But, a gracious Father listens to His children.


I do not think anyone above, or those being quoted, are implying _prayer by works, _if by that phrase you intend to mean we must do something to obtain merit that is rewarded, making God a debtor to us.

As Durham, quoted above observed:
"A good conscience is not indeed a meritorious cause of the hearing of prayer, yet God has established a connection between it and His hearing of prayer, and it has influence on our expecting a hearing and on our knowing that we shall get a hearing."

God already knows what we will pray before we do so. That _connection _above, the _means_ (_a good conscience_ in the above) so ordained, are operative in our prayers. Indeed, He answers our prayers, but sometimes those answers are a resounding "No". Why? Sometimes it because we do not pray aright (James 4:3). That being the undeniable case, there must be a proper means of approaching God in prayer. Hence the quotes above that are faithful summaries of the teachings of Scripture concerning prayer.

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## arapahoepark (Mar 26, 2018)

Undoubtedly, it is true. What if one wants comfort from besetting sin?


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## a mere housewife (Mar 26, 2018)

Read this beautiful chapter again today --

Ho there! Every thirsty one,
come to the waters!
Whoever has no money
come, buy and eat!
Yes, come, buy -- for no money, at no cost --
wine and milk.
Why do you weigh out money for what is not bread,
your hard-earned cash for what brings no satisfaction?
Listen -- just listen -- to me and eat well,
and your soul will find delight in rich fare. ...

Seek Yahweh while he permits himself to be found.
Call him while he is near.
Let the wicked man leave his way,
and the immoral man his thoughts,
and let him turn back to Yahweh so that he may show him compassion,
and to our God, for he will multiply forgiveness.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not my ways.
This is the word of of Yahweh
(from Isaiah 55, Dr. Motyer's devotional)

As long as we can call to God, He is near and He is our only comfort and help from sin in the world.

My mom gave me some of the best advice when I was a teenager struggling with my wretched self in various ways. She told me never never to give up on honest prayer to God -- even if what I had to confess was that I didn't want to pray and didn't want to obey. She said to just keep calling out to God for help with whatever my honest condition was.
At another time I did give up on prayer. I decided it wasn't a help. And a woman my family had met once briefly, and who lived in Canada called my house to speak to me and tell me never to give up on praying.
Never give up on praying, no matter how unworthy you feel or how impossible the problem seems. Even when the problem is sinful self. God is greater, and His grace is always free.

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## jw (Mar 26, 2018)

a mere housewife said:


> She told me never never to give up on honest prayer to God -- even if what I had to confess was that I didn't want to pray and didn't want to obey. She said to just keep calling out to God for help with whatever my honest condition was.
> At another time I did give up on prayer. I decided it wasn't a help. And a woman my family had met once briefly, and who lived in Canada called my house to speak to me and tell me never to give up on praying.
> Never give up on praying, no matter how unworthy you feel or how impossible the problem seems. Even when the problem is sinful self. God is greater, and His grace is always free.


Exactly! How could we expect relief otherwise?! Going to the Lord with an eye toward not giving up certain sinful darlings may be one thing, but going to the Lord hating those [sinfully] beloved darlings and wanting them _not_ to be darlings to us any longer is quite another! Who do we think puts such a desire in us to hate such things? Not our own hearts!

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## jw (Mar 26, 2018)

I am not much on listening to audio sermons outside of those preached at my church, but one preacher who I've always very much appreciated on the outside of my local chapter of Zion is Albert N. Martin. He preached a few sermons on Psalm 51 that are simply outstanding, and I really liked one of the things he pointed out in David's prayer of repentance.

First, Pastor Martin went to 2 Samuel 12.9 and remarked on Nathan's language in his rebuke to David (my emphasis added):

_Wherefore hast thou *despised* the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight?
_​Despise. To treat lightly. To treat with contempt. Then Pastor Martin returned to Psalm 51, and pointed out this in David's prayer (v. 17, my emphasis added):

_The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not *despise*_.​How encouraging to the despondent sinner who knows, understands, acknowledges, and bewails his sins against His maker with a contrite heart! O! We sons of Adam, we may, for a spell, treat lightly, and with contempt, the law of God, but -in turn- when we go to God with a heart of contrition, knowing our just dessert, and agreeing with God what is due for our sins, but crying out to Him as a son to a Father, He *does not *treat that lightly! Hand in hand with Isaiah quoted above (and other parts therewith), the contrite man is _*promised*_ to have the "sure mercies of David!"

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## Jack K (Mar 27, 2018)

If we love our sin and are determined to continue in it, we are resisting God. It should be no surprise, then, that this hinders our prayer. Prayer is about depending on God, which is not compatible with resisting God.

BUT, it is a grave mistake to take this idea too far and conclude that some level of sanctification is required for prayer. This idea is of the devil, who knows that prayer is the core of the life of faith and is eager to accuse us when we pray. We must remember, rather, how God has designed prayer to be _for sinners _who want/need help:

- We only come to God in the first place through Christ and his atonement for sin. “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). The mere act of coming to pray takes us back to Christ's blood, shed for us. It reminds us that we pray in the power of _his_ righteousness given to us, not any self-righteousness.

- God's involvement in prayer is to help us in our weaknesses. "The Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Romans 8:26). God isn't waiting for us to pray so he can scold us for our failures and turn us down on their account. Rather, he expects us to need assistance and is eager to help us in prayer.

- Jesus described our relationship to God in prayer as a child-to-Father experience. We are still learning, still dependent, still needing discipline. This does not disqualify us from prayer; rather, it propels us into prayer and makes up the heart of prayer.

All this means that if you feel the weight of your sin—how you are dishonest, hypocritical, callous, standoffish, stubborn, proud, lazy, unworthy, uncaring, or any of the other condemning things I feel when I think about _my_ prayer life—well then, you need to pray. Prayer is for exactly that kind of sinner. It is where we get help for all that nastiness. Your Father invites you to stop resisting him, and come.

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