# Were the Waldenses orthodox ?



## Mayflower (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't know much of the Waldenses, only that the were credo-baptist and got persecuted by the RCC.

Were the Waldenses orthodox in their view of the Scriptures, Trinity, justification by faith alone...etc ? Or did they hath some serieus error's (Iam not talking about the view of baptism as a responsed by the paedobaptist) like the anabaptist hath ?


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## Blueridge Believer (Feb 8, 2008)

Extracts from
The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont
by Samuel Morland (London, 1658).

[Morland was commissioned by Oliver Cromwell to give aid
to the Waldenses and to research their history.
Original spellings have been preserved.]





After all the authentick proofs that have been alledged to make good the Antiquity of the Evangelical Churches in the Valleys of Piemont, even from the time of the Apostles, if there yet remains any scruple in the mind of the Christian Reader concerning this Truth, their own Language in their Confessions of Faith from time to time, which I have here inserted in the following Form, will easily discover whether they be Jews or Galileans, the true seed of Abraham, or a counterfeit generation. For, if they have the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ, then they are the true successors and the legitimate Children of Abraham, for as much as they have the Faith of Abraham, Rom. 4. and 9. and 11. as Gregory Nazianzen observes in his Oration, in magnum Athanasium.


An ancient Confession of Faith of the Waldenses, Copied
out of certain Manuscripts, bearing date Anno Dom.
1120. That is to say, near 400 years before the
time of either Calvin or Luther.


Article 1.

We believe and firmly hold all that which is contained in the twelve Articles of the Symbol, which is called the Apostles' Creed, accounting for Heresie whatsoever is disagreeing, and not consonant to the said 12 Articles.


Article 2.

We do believe that there is one God, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost.


Article 3.

We acknowledg for the holy Canonical Scriptures, the Books of the holy Bible. The Books of Moses called Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st Samuel, 2nd of Samuel, 1st of Kings, 2nd of Kings, 1st Chronicles, 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms. The Proverbs of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, or the Preacher, The Song of Solomon, The Prophesies of Isaiah, and Jeremiah. The Lamentations of Jeremiah. Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonas, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.

Here follow the Books Apocryphal, which are not received of the Hebrews. But we reade them (as saith St. Hierome in his Prologue to the Proverbs) for the instruction of the People, not to confirm the Authority of the Doctrine of the Church: 2nd Esdras, 3d Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, with the Epistle of Jeremiah, Esther from the tenth Chapter to the end, The Song of the three Children in the Fornace, The History of Susanna, The History of the Dragon, 1 Maccabes, 2 Maccabes, 3 Maccabes.

Here follow the Books of the New Testament: The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, The Acts of the Apostles, The Epistle of Paul to the Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, The Epistle of James, The first Epistle of Peter, The second Epistle of Peter, The first Epistle of John, The second Epistle of John, The third Epistle of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation of John.


Article 4.

The Books above-said teach this, That there is one God, Almighty, all wise, and all good, who has made all things by his goodness, For he formed Adam in his own image and likeness, but that by the envy of the Devil, and the disobedience of the said Adam, sin has entred into the World, and that we are Sinners in Adam and by Adam.


Article 5.

That Christ was promised to our Fathers who received the Law, that so knowing by the Law their sin, unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ, to satisfie for their sins, and accomplish the Law by himself.


Article 6.

That Christ was born in the time appointed by God the Father. That is to say, in the time when all iniquity abounded, and not for the cause of good works, for all were Sinners; but that he might shew us grace and mercy, as being faithfull.


Article 7.

That Christ is our life, truth, peace, and righteousness, as also our Pastour, Advocate, Sacrifice, and Priest, who died for the salvation of all those that believe, and is risen for our justification.


Article 8.

In like manner, we firmly hold, that there is no other Mediatour and Advocate with God the Father, save onely Jesus Christ. And as for the Virgin Mary, that she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and in like manner do we believe concerning all the other Saints, that being in Heaven they wait for the Resurrection of their Bodies at the Day of Judgment.


Article 9.

We believe that after this life, there are onely two places, the one for the saved, and the other for the damned, the which two places we call Paradise and Hell, absolutely denying that Purgatory invented by Antichrist and forged contrary to the truth.


Article 10.

We have always accounted as an unspeakable abomination before God, all those Inventions of men, namely, the Feasts and the Vigils of Saints, the Water which they call holy. As likewise to abstain from flesh upon certain Days, and the like; but especially their Masses.


Article 11.

We esteem for an abomination and as Anti-Christian, all those humane Inventions which are a trouble or prejudice to the Liberty of the Spirit.


Article 12

We do believe that the Sacraments are signs of the holy thing, or visible forms of the invisible grace, accounting it good that the faithfull sometimes use the said signs or visible forms, if it may be done. However, we believe and hold, that the above-said faithfull may be saved without receiving the signs aforesaid, in case they have no place nor any means to use them.


Article 13.

We acknowledg no other Sacrament but Baptism and the Lords Supper.


Article 14.

We ought to honour the secular powers, by subjection, ready obedience, and paying of Tributes.


* * * * *



[The following is taken from the Waldensian catechism for the instruction of their youth, and bears about the same date as the above––as Morland says, "several hundreds of years before either Calvin or Luther."]



Minister. What is that which thou believest concerning the Holy Church?

Answer. I say, that the Church is considered two manner of ways, the one Substantially, and the other Ministerially. As it is considered Substantially, by the Holy Catholick Church is meant all the Elect of God, from the beginning of the World to the end, by the grace of God through the merit of Christ, gathered together by the Holy Spirit, and fore-ordained to eternal life; the number and names of whom are known to him alone who has elected them; and in this Church remains none who is reprobate; but the Church, as it is considered according to the truth of the ministry, is the company of the Ministers of Christ, together with the People committed to their Charge, using the Ministry, by Faith, Hope, and Charity.

Covenant Baptist Church


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## Kevin (Feb 8, 2008)

Some historians (I am thinking of O'Shea) link them with the other 12th century heretics of the Languedoc region, the Cathars. I have read some who consider the Waldensians to be a sect of Cathars.

The Cathars are undoubtably heretical, I am just not sure how certain the link between the two groups are.

I know it has been popular for many years to find a "proto-reformer" in every heretical group & persecuted sect down through the ages. This pastime is most popular with baptist for some reason. Be careful who you claim.


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## Theogenes (Feb 8, 2008)

According to J.A. Wylie, the Waldenses were orthodox and were proto-Protestants. Here's his book on them:
History of the Waldenses

It's a fascinating read, especially their battles with the RC butchers that came to slaughter them.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 8, 2008)

What is hysterical is that the anabaptist try to claim them as their predecessors...and yet, they were more like Calvinists.


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## Coram Deo (Feb 8, 2008)

They were Calvinistic Proto-Baptist... 



LadyFlynt said:


> What is hysterical is that the anabaptist try to claim them as their predecessors...and yet, they were more like Calvinists.


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## Blueridge Believer (Feb 8, 2008)

According to the above confession of 1120 AD they were orthodox enough for me.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 8, 2008)

During the persecution by Rome, groups like these were scattered and it is possible there could have been differences among some of them on baptism. However, my understanding is that as a general rule the Waldensians have always been paedobaptists.


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## Kevin (Feb 8, 2008)

I would be cautious about declaring them "orthodox" on the basis of the confession cited above. Remember that the Cathars could (and did) sound orthodox on occasion and they were rank dualists. 

The Cathars are often cited as "baptists" because of their re-baptising, immersion (sometimes), and proto-credo practice.

The fact that some historians consider the Waldensians to be an off-shoot of the Cathars sould give us pause.

As far as the creed goes I would agree that it is "close enough", however is it authentic? Is it a contemporary document, or a subsequent apology? Where is it first cited? Just citing it is not enough, unless the citation is from a recognised source.


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## Coram Deo (Feb 8, 2008)

I have always heard and read they do be Credobaptist.....



Pilgrim said:


> During the persecution by Rome, groups like these were scattered and it is possible there could have been differences among some of them on baptism. However, my understanding is that as a general rule the Waldensians have always been paedobaptists.


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## Bygracealone (Feb 8, 2008)

thunaer said:


> I have always heard and read they do be Credobaptist.....



Michael, what are your sources?


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## Pilgrim (Feb 8, 2008)

Well, that's what the "Trail of Blood" literature will tell you....but they would not have joined the Reformation in Italy, France, etc. if they had been anabaptists. 



thunaer said:


> I have always heard and read they do be Credobaptist.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 8, 2008)

I've also read that some were pacifists and some were not. So Waldenses could be a broader term than we know of.


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## Coram Deo (Feb 8, 2008)

1. The Israel of the Alps. A Complete History of the Waldenses and their Colonies; Prepared in Great Part from Unpublished Documents (2 Volumes) - Muston, Alexis

2. The History of the Waldenses, Dr. J. A. Wylie, Free Church of Scotland

3. Charles Spurgeon Writings

4. Wikipedia, List Waldensian under Anabaptist.

5. Many, both Catholics and Protestants, seem to agree that the Waldensians were against pedobaptism. Some of their 13th century accusers say they were anabaptist.



I guess I won't mention B. H. Carroll Since some do not like him here....






Bygracealone said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > I have always heard and read they do be Credobaptist.....
> ...


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## SRoper (Feb 8, 2008)

If the Waldensians ever held to credobaptism (maybe a minority did, but I see no evidence that they did as a group), they abandoned it when they joined with the Reformers. In America the Waldensians merged with the Presbyterians.


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## Coram Deo (Feb 8, 2008)

I Agree that they abandoned credobaptism in 1544 when they joined with Geneva after centuries of persecution. In 1532 they met with German and Swiss Protestants and ultimately adapted their beliefs to those of the Reformed Church. 

The Swiss and French Reformed churches sent William Farel and Anthony Saunier to attend the Synod of Chamforan, which convened in October, 12th 1532. Farel invited them to join the Reformation and to leave secrecy.

A confession of faith was written and signed in 1544... They have since been PedoBaptist.




SRoper said:


> If the Waldensians ever held to credobaptism (maybe a minority did, but I see no evidence that they did as a group), they abandoned it when they joined with the Reformers. In America the Waldensians merged with the Presbyterians.


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## Stephen (Feb 8, 2008)

Most all church historians would have regarded the Waldensians as a group that brought reformation to the church prior to the actual Protestant Reformation. They may not have had every issue of doctrine perfect, but they did strive to return to the truth of Scripture.


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