# What would you do?--Picture of "Christ" In Church



## tcalbrecht (Sep 22, 2004)

I wasn't quite sure where to post this since the issue touches on lots of areas, like ecclesiology and pastoral concerns.

Our congregation (PCA) is in the process of "joining and receiving" with another church in the area. This other congregation is nominally ARPC, having only been in that denomination for about three years. Prior to that they were independent with Presbyterian roots that go back to the Bible Presbyterian Church of the 1950.

This other congregation is offering to give our congregation their building and other assets in exchange for receiving their members and some other benefits. Our church has been around for 27 years and have never had a building of its own.

Here's the issue: in the auditorium of their church building, directly behind the pulpit, is a prominent stained glass window with a "picture of Jesus". The widow was apparently installed in the church many years ago to honor a member by that member's family. It seems some of these family members still go to the church and would be received into the "new" congregation. Our Session has indicated that they are not happy about the presence of the window, but think they need to deal with "charity and patience". The issue was raised with the Session by members of our congregation at a public meeting, but they have not committed to having the window removed before services start in the new building.

My questions:

If you were on the Session how would you handle the issue?

If you were a member of the congregation with scruples against worshipping under such conditions, what would you do if the window has not been removed prior to services beginning?

Thanks.


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## Bernard_Marx (Sep 22, 2004)

Tom,

I am in a similar situation right now. In the church in which I am a member there is a large stained glass window with a dove, representing the Holy Spirit, directly behind the pulpit. 

What I did is I told the minister that I feel this is in violation of Lord's Day 35 of the Heidelberg. I didn't, however, let this cause me to lose site of the fact that Brampton Canadian Church is the only Reformed deal open to me. I say speak your mind but don't let this matter make you do something rash that you'll regret.

Tom


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## cupotea (Sep 22, 2004)

Since my parents have been trying to find a new church home for my family, we attended a Missouri-synod Lutheran church for a while. At the front of the church, on the communion table, was a crucifix about 12 inches tall. Anytime the minister, alter-boy, or deacons were on stage and passed the crucifix, they would bow to the crucifix.  That's a serious issue, and thus we didn't stay there long. However, I don't think a stained glass window with an image of Christ is reason alone to leave a church or raise a bit fuss. I would express my concerns about it, but take care.


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## py3ak (Sep 22, 2004)

If I were a member of the session I would insist on having the window removed. If I were a member and it wasn't removed I would ask the session about it, and make sure I got a promise that it would be removed. I would also follow up about it, to make sure it didn't get forgotten. If the session refused to remove it I would start to look for another church.

Of course, the other option would be to imitate Spurgeon who broke the church's windows when the deacons wouldn't get opening windows --you could always throw a rock through it and offer a reward to anyone who caught the vandal! It solves the problem and makes you feel like Spurgeon.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 22, 2004)

Ruben,
That would probably solve the problem but there is something fishy about your statement...


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## Craig (Sep 22, 2004)

Could you hang a curtain covering the window during worship?


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 22, 2004)

[quote:e3e409f6fc="Craig"]Could you hang a curtain covering the window during worship?[/quote:e3e409f6fc]That is what I would suggest - it leaves everyone happy.


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## govols (Sep 22, 2004)

Come November, it may be a picture of Kerry.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 22, 2004)

[quote:25a3333a5b="govols"]Come November, it may be a picture of Kerry.

[/quote:25a3333a5b]

"The Tree of Liberty is watered from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants."


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## py3ak (Sep 22, 2004)

[quote:8d702273fa]Ruben, 
That would probably solve the problem but there is something fishy about your statement... [/quote:8d702273fa]

Jacob,

You can read all about it in Lectures To My Students.

By the way, I hadn't thought of the curtain expedient, but I would do that until the window could be replaced --especially if overcome by a fit of good humour I had acted on my Spurgeonesque plan....


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## tcalbrecht (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:a7b4e564a3="py3ak"]
By the way, I hadn't thought of the curtain expedient, but I would do that until the window could be replaced --especially if overcome by a fit of good humour I had acted on my Spurgeonesque plan....[/quote:a7b4e564a3]

The curtain option was apparently raised by our Session to the Session of the other congregation. No decision was reached. The issue seems to be deeper than is being portrayed publically.

My question to our Sesseion was, would God had thought it OK if the Israelites had just placed a drape over the golden calf until they got around to teaching the people why they were going to melt it down?

Does anyone think it would be OK to absent oneself and one's family from the public worhsip while the window is in place?


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## py3ak (Sep 23, 2004)

I think if it were covered until such a time as the money could be raised or arrangements could be made for the windows removal, but the removal was definitely coming as quickly as possible, then I wouldn't feel comfortable absenting myself.


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## tcalbrecht (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:9a1a98dfd7="py3ak"]I think if it were covered until such a time as the money could be raised or arrangements could be made for the windows removal, but the removal was definitely coming as quickly as possible, then I wouldn't feel comfortable absenting myself.[/quote:9a1a98dfd7]

Suppose it weren't covered (which is a very real possibility since they are planning to hold joint evening worship services next month in that facility)? Should I file a complaint?


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## py3ak (Sep 23, 2004)

Tom,

Personally, I would let them know that I refuse to attend a service with that picture, when it is possible to have it covered, and see where it goes from there.


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## luvroftheWord (Sep 23, 2004)

I wouldn't leave the church, if it was me. I might file a complaint, but I wouldn't leave. The fact that people leave churches over things like this is why there are so many tiny Reformed churches out there.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:b570d758f0="luvroftheWord"]I wouldn't leave the church, if it was me. I might file a complaint, but I wouldn't leave. The fact that people leave churches over things like this is why there are so many tiny Reformed churches out there.[/quote:b570d758f0]I am with you on that. Complain but dont walk out.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 23, 2004)

Tom,

Why are you even concerned? Don't you realize how incredible of an evangelistic tool the window could be? It is probably the greatest tool for evangelism that your church has ever seen. You should start inviting unsaved friends to come over and see it - they'll be instantly converted. Better yet, you should start inviting houndreds, no thousands, of Christians from every church to see it so that they can be encouraged and see wonderful evangelism.

Oh, yeah, by the way -- sarcasm off.


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## py3ak (Sep 23, 2004)

I would leave only if the complaint was ignored --and of course, I would appeal to presbytery and GA before I would conclude that it had been ignored.


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## tcalbrecht (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:14d5dc1e87="fredtgreco"]Tom,

Why are you even concerned? Don't you realize how incredible of an evangelistic tool the window could be? It is probably the greatest tool for evangelism that your church has ever seen. You should start inviting unsaved friends to come over and see it - they'll be instantly converted. Better yet, you should start inviting houndreds, no thousands, of Christians from every church to see it so that they can be encouraged and see wonderful evangelism.

Oh, yeah, by the way -- sarcasm off.[/quote:14d5dc1e87]

Fred,

Thanks for the thought. :bs2: I'd do that, but I have been told it's not even very good art.

Which reminds me of that Woody Allen line from Annie Hall, there Alvy tells the story about the two elderly women are at a Catskill Mountain resort. [quote:14d5dc1e87]And one of 'em says: 'Boy, the food in this place is really terrible.' The other one says: 'Yeah, I know. And such small portions.' Well, that's essentially how I feel about life. Full of loneliness and misery and suffering and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly.[/quote:14d5dc1e87]


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## sastark (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:2bff9c2db4="fredtgreco"]
Why are you even concerned? Don't you realize how incredible of an evangelistic tool the window could be? It is probably the greatest tool for evangelism that your church has ever seen. You should start inviting unsaved friends to come over and see it - they'll be instantly converted. Better yet, you should start inviting houndreds, no thousands, of Christians from every church to see it so that they can be encouraged and see wonderful evangelism.
[/quote:2bff9c2db4]

Now, THAT is funny!


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## alwaysreforming (Sep 23, 2004)

My take on this is simply a summation of several of the above responses:
As long as things are in the works to deal with this issue (its removal), then I would neither cause a fuss, allow it to get me discouraged, distract me from my worship, or leave for another church.

Give the session a reasonable period of time to resolve the window replacement, and don't allow yourself any frustration over it until that time has passed. After that, of course, you'll need to break the window just like Spurgeon.


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## Craig (Sep 23, 2004)

[quote:86752c7e45]Wow! I thought Craig (Not Craig LOTW, but Craig Craig) had posted this1 [/quote:86752c7e45]
What?!!?!! I don't even use sarcasm...in fact, I can't spell sarcasm, let alone define it. I'm a bit offended!

On a similar note to Fred's comments...I think he's right. That is the [i:86752c7e45]single greatest evangelism tool[/i:86752c7e45] available. If you show it the proper honor, it may begin to weep, causing untold millions to repent (the ones who weren't converted by the tortillas, at least...they're a stubborn crowd).


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## Bladestunner316 (Sep 24, 2004)

Well considering the image is of a merovingian king and in no way portrays what a jew would appear like. Romanism in secret to worship a man and not Christ Jesus.

blade


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## Irishcat922 (Sep 25, 2004)

pretend it is a picture of Moses!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 25, 2004)

Take it down and burn it in front of the church. :bs2:


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