# Does God Call His Elect by means of a false gospel?



## Amazing Grace (Dec 16, 2009)

As an offshoot from the OR death thread, perhaps we can discus this question here. Will an elect of God be called or converted under a false prophet such as Oral Roberts? I agree he may be called out, but will he remain under a false persons teachings and still converted? There are way too many warnings in scripture about false prophets and how we should treat them. 

What ye think?


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## Michael Doyle (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't know and I don't know how any of us could answer that question absolutely. I of course want to say unequivocally no, but that is hidden knowledge I am not given to know.

With respect to the first part of the question, the answer must be yes, an elect man or woman can be saved under a false teacher.


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## Andres (Dec 16, 2009)

yes, I do think God's elect can be converted under a false teacher. I think there are all types/levels of false teachers out there today. Obviously some are worse than others. In Robert's case I certainly agree he had *serious* error in his teachings, but I believe he also taught the very basic tenet of Christianity and that is salvation through faith in Christ alone. So even though someone under the ministry of Roberts would learn all sorts of ridiculous, unbiblical teachings, they would also pick up repentance and trust in Christ.


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## lynnie (Dec 16, 2009)

I've met a number of people that came out of the RCC. They were saved while in it, but got out. Wherever the bible is read, people can be saved.


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## Fly Caster (Dec 16, 2009)

Amazing Grace said:


> Does God Call His Elect by means of a false gospel?



God does sometimes call His elect by a bit of truth contained in an otherwise false gospel. Roberts was not a false teacher in the sense that everything that he said was in error-- his false gospel was a bit of truth mixed with a bit of error. The error is deadly, but the truth gives life. God may work in a saving way by using the life-giving part to bring forth life and nullify the effects of the poison. The other, and far more tragic, part of the equation is that many have imbibed deeply the poison which has had it's natural, unmitigated effect on them.


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 16, 2009)

Can we point to any biblical example of this happening? I am not aware of any. In fact the biblical revelation says the exact opposite. Let us for a second take our 'charity hats' off and hash this out. I am not speaking of being ignorant of truth, I am asking is if a person sits under the teachings of one as OR et al, and gives a hearty Amen to what he says, how can he believe a lie or lies, and still be considered regenerated when Christ said the Spirit will lead them into all truth.


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## Andres (Dec 16, 2009)

lynnie said:


> I've met a number of people that came out of the RCC. They were saved while in it, but got out. Wherever the bible is read, people can be saved.



Now see this is interesting. RCC is Roman Catholic church correct? I am very leery of salvation through the Roman Catholic church because they do not teach the true gospel at all! As I stated earlier, all that would be needed to be taught would be faith in Christ alone for salvation. Rome does not teach this. I was raised in the Catholic church and i was as lost as I could be. I was saved in a Pentecostal church because even though they taught lots of other error, faith in Christ alone was taught for salvation. 
Of course if you say you know people who came to faith in the RCC, then I believe you Lynnie. I would however be interested to hear how they did it.


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## CharlieJ (Dec 16, 2009)

*2 questions*



Amazing Grace said:


> As an offshoot from the OR death thread, perhaps we can discus this question here. Will an elect of God be called or converted under a false prophet such as Oral Roberts? I agree he may be called out, but will he remain under a false persons teachings and still converted? There are way too many warnings in scripture about false prophets and how we should treat them.
> 
> What ye think?



Your subject line asks one question, and your text another. No, of course no one can be truly converted by means of a false gospel. That's just self-contradictory, since the gospel is God's power for salvation (Rom. 1:16).

Also, no, no one could be saved primarily by means of a false teacher, since the biblical definition of a false teacher is someone who perverts the gospel (read 2 Peter 2). That's an important distinction to keep in mind; not everyone with erroneous theology is a ψευδοδιδασκαλος as described in the NT. 

However, someone could be saved while under the ministry of a false teacher by some other means, such as personal Bible reading or the influence of a friend or a preacher on the radio. I trust that the Lord would eventually bring a person out of such an environment into some sort of Bible-believing group.


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## Fly Caster (Dec 16, 2009)

Amazing Grace said:


> Can we point to any biblical example of this happening? I am not aware of any. In fact the biblical revelation says the exact opposite. Let us for a second take our 'charity hats' off and hash this out. I am not speaking of being ignorant of truth, I am asking is if a person sits under the teachings of one as OR et al, and gives a hearty Amen to what he says, how can he believe a lie or lies, and still be considered regenerated when Christ said the Spirit will lead them into all truth.



Is it too much of a stretch to assume that Judas Iscariot was used to produce true disciples?


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## Mushroom (Dec 16, 2009)

> Php 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: (16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: (17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. (18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.





> 2Ti 2:15-21 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; (18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. (21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


Don't these verses indicate that God will use even false 'vessels' to gather His people to Himself?

I would say that it is the aggregate of experience that God uses in a person's life to call them to Himself, so if a false teacher is a part of that experience, hasn't he been used for that purpose? God used Joseph's brothers' wickedness to bring about good.


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## lynnie (Dec 16, 2009)

Andres.....they got involved with the Catholic Charismatic movement, which I think (I have zero first hand knowlege of it) stressed a personal relationship with God and that you must be born again. Right there is a departure from the teaching that it is enough to be baptized into the RCC. Regeneration is essential. I don't know all the details except that as they began to read the bible and walk with the Lord they realized that they could not stay in the RCC. But they were truly saved while in it. Often rejection of Mary idolatry was a major factor in leaving.


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## SemperEruditio (Dec 16, 2009)

Andres said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> > I've met a number of people that came out of the RCC. They were saved while in it, but got out. Wherever the bible is read, people can be saved.
> ...



Former RC here. My mother read the Bible to us and encouraged us to read it. She did not and does not believe the infallibility of the Pope. I tell her she's a Protestant trapped in a RC body. She believes that our good works are a result of our justification. When I officially became a Protestant I had trouble because justification was based on our works. I almost went back to Rome but then discovered I was a product of my mom's version of RC and not true RC.


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## TeachingTulip (Dec 16, 2009)

Amazing Grace said:


> As an offshoot from the OR death thread, perhaps we can discus this question here. Will an elect of God be called or converted under a false prophet such as Oral Roberts? I agree he may be called out, but will he remain under a false persons teachings and still converted? There are way too many warnings in scripture about false prophets and how we should treat them.
> 
> What ye think?



Well, some thoughts and Scriptures that come to mind . . .

The principle of Sola Scriptura answers your (good) question, and I believe the concept of Sola Scriptura must be defended as we consider the sources and content of the gospel call.

False gospels never save, but saints are saved despite false gospels, through reading/hearing the Holy Scriptures, alone. 

*"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life." John 6:63*

So my answer is, "no." 

False prophets are not the means of God calling the sons of God to life. False prophets do not speak for God, but only for themselves.

"Because the carnal minded is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:6-7

Scripture reveals false prophets and false gospels actually seek to work against God saving His own:

. . who make a man an offender by a word, and lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate, and turn aside the just by empty words." Isaiah 29:21

But they do so, to no avail:

"For the terrible one is brought to nothing; the scornful one is consumed and all who watch for iniquity are cut off." Isaiah 29:20

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd. . . The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own." John 10:10, 11; 13, 14

" . . *They will hear My voice* . . ." John 10:16

"So then faith comes by hearing and *hearing the word of God." *Romans 10:17

"Of His own will *He brought us forth by the word of truth,* that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." James 1:18

False prophets are everywhere; even in the midst of faithful denominations:

"And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words . . ." II Peter 2:2-3a

Dependence and trust in the Holy Scriptures, alone, provide faith unto everlasting life and protect God's children from false teachings. 

" . . I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder, that you may be mindful of *the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior."* II Peter 3:1-2

"Whoever *keeps His word*, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." I John 2:5


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 16, 2009)

Fly Caster said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Can we point to any biblical example of this happening? I am not aware of any. In fact the biblical revelation says the exact opposite. Let us for a second take our 'charity hats' off and hash this out. I am not speaking of being ignorant of truth, I am asking is if a person sits under the teachings of one as OR et al, and gives a hearty Amen to what he says, how can he believe a lie or lies, and still be considered regenerated when Christ said the Spirit will lead them into all truth.
> ...



Yes. It would be speculative.

-----Added 12/16/2009 at 02:03:58 EST-----



Brad said:


> > Php 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: (16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: (17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. (18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do not believe the verses say that at all. I would also say that God brought about good from the wickedness of Joe's brothers. Yet this seems to be missing my point.

Let me be perfectly clear. I am in no way saying that an elect of God is dependent upon hearing the truth in order to be saved. An elect of God will not be cast away because he sat under the like of Hinn or Roberts. He will most assuredly leave and come out from amongst them.


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## Webservant (Dec 16, 2009)

Not through the message of the false prophet but certainly through the scripture one may be exposed to. I was first exposed to scripture by an old girlfriend in the Assemblies of God church. She gave me a bible and the rest is history.


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 16, 2009)

I think the idea of Preparatory Grace is very useful for understanding the issue. I'll quote at some length from Kuyper's _The Work of the Holy Spirit._ On the one hand, we need to realize that God works Providentially in the lives of His own in ways that we cannot understand. Something I appreciate about Augustine's Confessions is how he glorifies God for his whole life - even the times of folly. If we have a thoroughgoing understanding of Providence then we can glorify God for working all things together for our good.

That all said, where the Scriptures speak we should speak and where they stop speaking we should stop. There is no point speculating about whether or not a false Gospel will convert. The Scriptural data that we have is not that false Gospels are somehow "OK, because God will save them somehow anyway." That is not for us to speculate beyond what the Scriptures state. I've never been a fan of the refrain: "Well, I know that God has lots of His elect in X Churches..." where X can mean any number of Churches that so cloud the Scriptures as to imperil souls. I understand the desir for humility but let's be truly humble and let God be God and not pretend to enter His holy counsel concerning hidden things and speak authoritatively convinced that the elect exist somewhere where we are not granted that information.

Let us simply thank God that He works all things together for His good and live by the things revealed and know that God keeps hidden things to Himself and we need to respect that.



> Regarding the work of preparatory grace, it was before all things necessary to examine whether the knowledge of God had been retained in its purity, or whether to favor the sinner it had been distorted and twisted. And tested by this, it can not be denied that God's care for His elect does not begin at an arbitrary moment, but is interwoven with their whole existence, including their conception, and even before their conception, with the mysteries of that redeeming love which declares: " I have loved thee with an everlasting love." Hence it is unthinkable that God should have left a sinner to himself for years, to arrest him at a certain moment in the midst of his life.
> 
> Nay, if God is to remain God and His omnipresent power unlimited, a sinner's salvation must be an eternal work, embracing his entire existence—a work whose roots are hidden in the unseen foundations of the wondrous mercies which extend far beyond his conception. It can not be denied that a man, converted at twenty-five, was during his godless life the subject of the divine labor, care, and protection; that in his conception and before his birth God's hand held him and brought him forth; yea, that even in the divine counsel the work must be traced which God has wrought for him long before his conversion.
> 
> ...


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