# Worship: The Regulative Principle and the Biblical Principle of Accommodation



## reaganmarsh (Nov 5, 2011)

Worship: The Regulative Principle and the Biblical Principle of Accommodation


Anyone read this? Thoughts? 

Thanks in advance!


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## jogri17 (Nov 5, 2011)

Is it available online for free?


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 5, 2011)

I don't think so; not everything in life is online or free. 
This book is mentioned in part 2 of the Survey of RPW literature by Dr. Frank J. Smith which appeared in _The Confessional Presbyterian_ journal,* but apparently we did not have a copy in hand as comments did not delve into the contents. Ernie Reisinger had an earlier piece on the RPW, "Thoughts on the Regulative Principle in a Reforming Situation" (1982), but whether this incorporates that material or has different, I do not know.

*This series has a substantial amount of information on the literature and resurgence of support for the biblical rule of worship.
See, Frank J. Smith with Chris Coldwell. "The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999)._" The Confessional Presbyterian_ vol. 2 (2006).
Smith, Frank J. with Chris Coldwell. "The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part Two (2000–2007)."_ The Confessional Presbyterian_ vol. 3 (2007)


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## elnwood (Nov 5, 2011)

I've read it. It's a good overview of the regulative principle. It makes frequent references to Frame's _Worship in Spirit and Truth_, sometimes using his work to support theirs, but ultimately diverging from Frame's RPW. They would land somewhere in between Frame's RPW and an exclusive-psalter, no instuments RPW.


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 5, 2011)

Joseph, 

I've not found it online for free, sorry!

Don & Chris: Thanks for the info. I look forward to studying the RPW further. Beyond this work, Frame's book, and the CPJ, what would you advise that one read?


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## Pilgrim (Nov 5, 2011)

reaganmarsh said:


> Joseph,
> 
> I've not found it online for free, sorry!
> 
> Don & Chris: Thanks for the info. I look forward to studying the RPW further. Beyond this work, Frame's book, and the CPJ, what would you advise that one read?



I don't think Chris will be recommending Frame's book.  And it's not just an exclusive Psalmody thing either. Frame basically redefines the RPW into something that historic Presbyterianism would not recognize. If I recall correctly, he he allows for some limited use of drama during worship and maybe even dance. That being said, it's likely more thought out than the typical Southern Baptist or broad evangelical worship service (which would include some Presbyterians.) In some of those cases, little thought seems to go into it at all except consideration about what people might like and what the performers like and/or are able and willing to play 

D.G. Hart and John Muether's _In Reverence and Awe_ is worth a look from a RPW perspective that allows for hymnody and musical accompaniment. I haven't read it, but I think Pastor Terry Johnson has one or more books on this theme as well. No doubt there are several others. 

These are all Presbyterian. There are probably some recent Baptist works but I can't think of any offhand right now.


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## elnwood (Nov 6, 2011)

I would definitely recommend reading Frame's book.

It certainly is a reformulation and a challenge of the Puritan view of the RPW, but it's very well-thought out and organized. You can quickly flip to a section of the book and understand why Frame thinks this element of worship is allowed and the Scripture backing it up.

Everything else you read on the RPW is going to reference John Frame, favorably or unfavorably, so you owe it to yourself to read it and understand Frame's thought before you go and read critiques of it.


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## jogri17 (Nov 6, 2011)

elnwood said:


> I would definitely recommend reading Frame's book.
> 
> It certainly is a reformulation and a challenge of the Puritan view of the RPW, but it's very well-thought out and organized. You can quickly flip to a section of the book and understand why Frame thinks this element of worship is allowed and the Scripture backing it up.



I would read it if you want to see the best example of twisting words away from their original intention in order justify preferred practices. I like John Frame's work over all, but he is on the wacky tabacky if thinks his position can be called ''The regulative Principle of worship'' in any historical sense. I would prefer it if he just come out of the closet like RC Sproul did and say he prefers a conservative Lutheran approach. I don't think the RPW is of the essence of the Reformed faith, and he should be able to remain in the PCA, but it is important just to be honest about it.


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## jogri17 (Nov 6, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> These are all Presbyterian. There are probably some recent Baptist works but I can't think of any offhand right now.



First, I would reccoment the Book edited by Ligon Duncan in honour of James Boice. I forgot the Bible, but the first 2 chapters by Lig are pure gold. Also on 9Marks | Building Healthy Churches, there is an excellent round table discussion with ligon duncan and Mark dever defending the RPW though with Dever not taking the sabartartian posistion (more of no sabbath but yes Lord's day) and Lig taking a more puritan approach.

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The best argument for the Lutheran approach is ironically RC SProul's commentary on the WCF (volume 3 i believe?) and his ''A taste of heaven''. He admits he takes the Lutheran approach.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 6, 2011)

elnwood said:


> I would definitely recommend reading Frame's book.
> 
> It certainly is a reformulation and a challenge of the Puritan view of the RPW, but it's very well-thought out and organized. You can quickly flip to a section of the book and understand why Frame thinks this element of worship is allowed and the Scripture backing it up.
> 
> Everything else you read on the RPW is going to reference John Frame, favorably or unfavorably, so you owe it to yourself to read it and understand Frame's thought before you go and read critiques of it.


This advice is backwards and gets to an issue of historical definitions. If one wants to level set what the RPW is and is not then one has to begin with historical definitions and read the historic Reformed Confessions to see how the hermeneutic that establishes the RPW is set forth. Once that is established then one can determine whether or not a particular author is departing from a historical understanding of a principle and setting forth a new principle.

As much as we all lament post-modernism and its denial of fixed meanings and authorial intent, I'm regularly amazed at Churchmen who do the same with historical definitions as if the words or documents are playgrounds by which they can ignore the rules of interpretation that guided their use and development and pretend as if our forebears can be completely ignored. I have no patience for it here where someone is asking for a clear articulation of the RPW. This is not the post-modern board but a board that seeks to set forth clear information of words and their meanings.

If one asks:

What is the incarnation?
What is the Trinity?
What is justification?

Each of those terms has a _meaning_ that is defined by its historic use as used by Creeds and Confessions that have preceded us for centuries.


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## elnwood (Nov 6, 2011)

Semper Fidelis said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > I would definitely recommend reading Frame's book.
> ...



Rich, I agree with you. OF COURSE you start with the Reformed Creeds and Confessions! That should have gone without saying! It should have been assumed that this would be the starting point. If you haven't already, read Chapter 22 of the Second London Baptist Confession, and the parallel chapters in the Westminster Standards.

With regard to the _modern_ discussions regarding the RPW, almost all the literature revolves around John Frame's work, including the book mentioned in the original post. Thus, for anyone studying the RPW in any depth, I think it is important to read and understand Frame's book.

In doing this, I am NOT advocating Frame's view of the RPW. It's simply good and responsible practice to read the works being critiqued as well as the critiques. After all, we all know Arminians who read Dave Hunt and feel like they know enough about Calvinism.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 6, 2011)

elnwood said:


> You can quickly flip to a section of the book and understand why Frame thinks this element of worship is allowed *and the Scripture backing it up*.



This was said poorly if what you say below is true. That I believe is why the challenge came. You seem to post favorably saying scripture backs up his view. 



elnwood said:


> In doing this, I am NOT advocating Frame's view of the RPW.


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## jogri17 (Nov 6, 2011)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I'm regularly amazed at Churchmen who do the same with historical definitions as if the words or documents are playgrounds by which they can ignore the rules of interpretation that guided their use and development and pretend as if our forebears can be completely ignored.



Isn't that exactly what Jean Calvin did with the ''descent into hell'' passage?


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 6, 2011)

Brothers, 

Thank you for the responses and discussion. It is helpful to me to see some of the interaction. I'm reasonably familiar with the RPW (i.e., from 2LBC, WCF, _et al_)but am seeing that I need to move beyond familiarity to understand it further. Thus, the inquiries. 

Again, my thanks for the interaction. I'll look into these titles (and the 9Marks website). Any articles y'all would point me to?

Grace to you all.


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## elnwood (Nov 6, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > You can quickly flip to a section of the book and understand why Frame thinks this element of worship is allowed *and the Scripture backing it up*.
> ...



Oh. That's not what intended. I meant simply that he uses Scripture to discuss elements of worship.

I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall that he would have a section on prayer, and discuss where Scripture supports prayer in worship services. Similarly, you can see the Scripture he uses to support the reading of Scripture, reading confessions, confession, baptism and the Lord's Supper, singing, and other elements of worship that many of us agree on. My point is that Frame's book makes a good reference for looking up Scriptural support for specific elements, even if you don't agree with Frame's assessment on things like drama or contemporary worship.

I read "Worship: The Regulative Principle and the Biblical Principle of Accommodation," and it's a good introduction for Baptists to the RPW, and fully confessionally compliant, but its usefulness doesn't extend beyond one reading. I think I passed on the book to another Reformed Baptist brother.

I have enough books on theology on my shelf that what matters to me most is what makes a good reference, not necessarily what I agree with the most. Hence, Calvin's Institutes is a much better and useful systematic than, say, J. P. Boyce's systematic, even though as a Reformed Baptist I think Boyce is more correct in his doctrine.

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jogri17 said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I'm regularly amazed at Churchmen who do the same with historical definitions as if the words or documents are playgrounds by which they can ignore the rules of interpretation that guided their use and development and pretend as if our forebears can be completely ignored.
> ...



Good question! Didn't Danny Hyde wrote a whole book on that?


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## JP Wallace (Nov 7, 2011)

'With Reverence and Awe' is the best modern book on the subject - regarding principles - it is a book about the principle not really the application/s.

Gospel Worship by Jeremiah Burroughs is one of the best all round books on worship, but demands a little more effort as it is a 17th century Puritan work. It is however well worth the effort. 

In my opinion Frame's work on the RPW is silly, as in his hands the RPW becomes unprincipled, unregulated - and in my opinion unconfessional, as is R.J. Gore's 'Covenantal Worship'.

If you want to seriously think about instrumentation and psalmody (and you should whatever your conclusions) you must read Michael Bushell's 'Songs of Zion' (psalmody) and John Price's 'Old Light on New Worship' (instrumentation).


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## Andres (Nov 7, 2011)

JP Wallace said:


> you want to seriously think about instrumentation and psalmody (and you should whatever your conclusions) you must read Michael Bushell's 'Songs of Zion' (psalmody)



I just looked that book up on Amazon and it's going for $60! It must be good!

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Whoa, now I look up the second book on Amazon and it's $144!!


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## Afterthought (Nov 7, 2011)

reaganmarsh said:


> Again, my thanks for the interaction. I'll look into these titles (and the 9Marks website). Any articles y'all would point me to?


For some online stuff, this website has several online stuff on the regulative principle (because that's where the "exclusive" part of the EP argument usually comes from). I know apuritansmind also had a few articles on the regulative principle. You can also find some brief discussions in the old expositions of the Westminster Catechisms on the Second Commandment, along with various other expositions/sermons on the Second Commandment (a lot of these are available online). There is also some helpful stuff online that deals with Church authority here.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 7, 2011)

Those the old edition of Bushell.
Newest is $28; $20 paperback.
Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell in Christianity


Andres said:


> I just looked that book up on Amazon and it's going for $60! It must be good!


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 7, 2011)

John Price's book is available from the publisher for under $20 I think.
Simpson Publishing Company - Publications


Andres said:


> Whoa, now I look up the second book on Amazon and it's $144!!


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 7, 2011)

jogri17 said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I'm regularly amazed at Churchmen who do the same with historical definitions as if the words or documents are playgrounds by which they can ignore the rules of interpretation that guided their use and development and pretend as if our forebears can be completely ignored.
> ...



As a general rule, what marked Calvin out was how well he understood Church History and worked with what came before. If he erred in some areas then it wasn't because he was trying to be a trailblazer or felt like definitions of words belonged to him. Consequently, I reject the idea that what I stated above is _exactly_ what Calvin did. I could chalk it up to ignorance or perhaps forgetting what he might have once read. Given the era he lived in, his grasp of Church history and Scripture is remarkable but as much as I esteem his work he was not infallible. Furthermore, assuming the absolute worst, if Calvin deliberately misrepresented the descentis then it doesn't give anyone a pass because he ignored original usage. What I see out of many today is hardly worth comparing to the care of Calvin. More often, I see a surface-level reading, no study of history, and either a hasty dismissal of the historical Confessions or a redefinition of terms because authorial intent is deemed unnecessary.


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## Andres (Nov 7, 2011)

Thanks Chris! Those prices are much more within my budget.


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