# Jehovah's Witnesses



## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 2, 2006)

Wasn't sure where else to put this, so if it needs to be moved, please do so.

I've been talking to a young man at school about J.W.'s, he's looking into that. I don't know much about it so I was wondering if some of you could give me some articles that you know to be good ones - any tips would also be appreciated - as I don't want to stumble around in the dark.

Today he told me that they believe they have to basically earn their way into paradise, so I pointed out Ephesians 2:8-9 in his Bible (because he said our Bibles were different) and it essentially said the same thing. He said he would have to examine the whole context, read the book, so I left it at that. I also printed this out and gave it to him - http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/BlumChristopherDoctrinesOfGrace.htm - so hopefully he'll read the verses. Christopher, I've used that so many times now, thank-you for sharing!

Thanks you guys. Please pray for the both of us, he seems willing to look into it. He wrote down the verses I gave him and said he would look into it, so we shall see.


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## Puritanhead (Mar 3, 2006)

Susan,

Perhaps, this might be most appropriate in the apologetics forum under the _Cults & World Religions_ section.

The Watchtower Society or Jehovah's Witnesses use a Bible that is similar, but they had their muckrackers editors selectively edit it to reflect their doctrines... where they cannot handle Biblical doctrines they dislike, such as _hell_, than I imagine they just dispense with it by rewriting the Bible. They claim the text has been corrupted, and apparently some Jehovah's Witnesses are uniquely possessed of the insight to correct it.

They basically embrace the heresy of Arianism. Their religion is a works-righteousness system, and they do not know eternal security consequently. They believe in a pseudo-Christ of their own reinvention. They are anti-Trinitarian. They deny the deity of Christ.

We should simply see pseudo-Christian cults like we see Phariseeism. Men have a religion, but a man-centered religion.

If you are going to evangelize than do so in a spirit of 2 Timothy 2:24-25, and remember the emphasis on patience:


> And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.


 Counter-cult apologetics can be very difficult, and ultimately your solace is prayer that God would break them of their false teachings, and grant them faith and repentance in the one and true Savior, the God of the Bible, our mutual Lord Jesus Christ, and not the false Christ of their own invention. The success of the evangelist lies in his/her faithfully proclaiming the Word of God. It's not about outarguing or trying to elicit a confession, but just faithfulness in our Gospel presentation. It's perfectly alright to supplement any evangelism with third party materials... John Piper's _The Passion of the Christ_ is a great supplement.

[Edited on 3-5-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 3, 2006)

Susan,

I think with a JW I would empasize the following (as you have already done):

1. We are dead in our sins and tresspasses and under God's wrath. Apart from Christ we are lost.

2. Christ is FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN. Do not equivocate on this. The JW's believe that Christ was the first of God's creation. If he will not accept Christ's divinity then conversation over. Explain to him that Christ had to be fully man to be our mediator and fully God to receive the full weight of Divine wrath. God had to fulfill the conditions of righteousness because mankind could not fulfill it in himself.

The JW's are certain that their version of the Bible is acccurate. It is a peversion designed to edit out divine references (...and the Word was a God...) If he will, in the end, not submit to the Word of God and prefers falsehood then don't try to seek to persuade too aggressively. At a certain point you need to just tell him that he will die in his sins and tresspasses if he doesn't accept Christ as God and as His savior.


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## Preach (Mar 3, 2006)

Susan,
Contact Christopher Hinton. He is a member of this board and used to be involved with the JW'S. You can hear it right from the horses mouth. He can provide you with probably the most comprehensive website regarding the JW'S. I've been to the website but cannot find it. It is phenomenal.

Contact one of the PB administrators to get Christopher's information.

Above all, remember that you are now engaged in spiritual warfare. This is not just another witnessing opportunity. The Devil is clearly guiding this cult. I would strongly advise that you talk with your session for advice and prayer. May the Lord richly bless your heart's desire and protect you from evil.

"In Christ",
Bobby


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks you guys for your responses, they are greatly appreciated.

Through the conversation I've had with him, I have most definitely come to realize how futile any of my attemps are to show him the truths clearly taught in Scripture - very humbling and I needed to be humbled. I've been praying even more lately, that's a blessing as well.

I like the 2 Timothy 2:24-25 verse, thank-you for that! It's a great reminder to us who are still in this world.

I've heard that verse mentioned before (and the Word was a god). How exactly do they twist that to fit their cult?


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Preach_
> Susan,
> Contact Christopher Hinton.



What's his screen name?


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## py3ak (Mar 4, 2006)

Susan,

Chris Hinton's user name is *alwaysreforming*.

On another thread he provided his e-mail address: check your U2U box!


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## Devin (Mar 5, 2006)

You must always be aware of the possibilty that the verses you present may be very different in the New World Translation. As already stated, many verses were perverted to do away with the diety of Christ. Also, many JWs will be thoroughly prepared to deal with such verses as John 1:1. They know it's coming, so they'll be prepared. Likewise, if you're going to need to be prepared if you decide to take that route.

However, there are alternative routes you might want to take. For instance, even though many changes have been made in their translation, the diety of Christ still shines through in several verses. I'd suggest you get to know Hebrews 1. Here's the important portion I'm getting at, from the NWT itself.

_8 But with reference to the Son: "œGod is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." 10 * And: "œYou at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."*_

The part in bold is a quote from Psalm 102:25-26, which is address to Jehovah Himself (verse 1). Therefore, even in the NWT, the writer of Hebrews has no problem with applying a verse about Jehovah to Christ.

Another example of this is in John 12:

_Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: "œJehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?" 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 "œHe has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them." *41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.*_

Now, in this section, there is a quote from Isaiah 6, and at the end John says that Isaiah said those things because he saw "his glory." In context, it be hard to make a case for "his" being anyone other than Christ. And, if you go back to Isaiah 6 itself, where Isaiah sees "his glory", you'll find that Isaiah was seeing Jehovah:

_1 In the year that King UzÂ·ziÂ´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. _

Therefore, saying Jesus is Jehovah is justified.


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## just_grace (Mar 5, 2006)

Shut the door on them and do not let them across the threshold of your home.

Listen to 1 John. They deny Christ came in the flesh.


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 5, 2006)

Oooh, my ears are burning.... you guys are talking about me!

In reference to the website that Preach mentioned, it can be found here:

Should you believe in the Trinity?

To give a good practical step on what to do with JW's, I've found NO other method that comes close to the following:
1. Read up on the website
2. Invite the JW to have a study with you, and tell him that you will use HIS own publication, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" during the study
3. At the outset, tell him that you want to go paragraph by paragraph and don't want to jump around but stick to the topic at hand, through the whole brochure
4. Study the hyperlinked refutations of the JW publication and be prepared to present your solid case at each meeting.


That's the "method"; now here's some helpful tips:

1. Realize that the JW thinks you are an emissary of Satan, so don't expect him to be "open" to what you have to say, at least not quite yet.

2. Don't hit them too hard or too soon with the fact that their governing body is corrupt and that he/she is involved in a cult.

3. Don't think "going to the Greek" is going to solve much. All they do is go to their leadership with the problem and they in turn point them to alternate renderings of your favorite Greek phrase. Still do go to the Greek, but its not the "nail in the coffin" that you'd think it would be.

4. Be winsome, patient, gentle and remember that you have to compensate for "a multitude of sins" that they've encountered with other "Christians", (or the perception of such).

5. Be aware of letting them "save face" in light of your most powerful arguments. Don't let their damaged ego be a stumbling block to future study. Gentleness is key.

6. Develop a genuine affection for the person, and pray for him. Show him some sort of love; don't let it just become a "debate".

7. Be aware of letting him bring others along, and ask him not to share too much of what you're talking about with his fellow brothers/sisters. Why? As soon as another hears that you have solid arguments, they will tell this person: "Look, John, Sara is even beginning to sow doubts in your mind. This is "spiritual poison"; it can prove to be the shipwreck of your soul. Its imperative that you no longer have any contact with her. There was a wonderful brother a few years back who....... and now he has been disfellowshiped and will be destroyed with the wicked at the Judgment. Do you want this to happen to you?"

8. Don't try to prove too much or set the bar too high in your studies. Don't say, "If I can prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Trinity is a biblical concept, then will you do such and such?"
Remember, just putting a small crack in the foundation of their beliefs can slowly begin to reap big rewards in their openness to your truths later.

9. Remember, they are not there to learn, they have come to dish out. Don't "dish out" too much yourself initially or they will write you off as "a goat-like person", with whom they should have nothing to do! Have enough "give and take" in the beginning to make them feel comfortable enough to return.

10. Avoid prooftexting. They already know what verse to go to to refute yours. This takes the Bible out of context most times anyway. Be like Robin and think "context, context, context."

The other advice given by my brothers in the above posts is excellent as well; that's why I didn't respond to this thread earlier. I thought my remarks might be a bit superfluous. However, know this: there is NO better way to win them over to the Truth than to use their own publication and refute them line by line! They will ONLY use their own publications and will not read anything you give to them. (It is spiritual poison)
They have ready-made responses to anything someone will ask them, and they train on this weekly! They are a prepared army, and are diligent in study, rehearsal, and strategy; that's why they are able to defeat so many Christians at the front door. When I was a JW, NO Christian was able to refute ANY of my arguments, not even pastors! How ashamed I am now for any doubts I may have sown into impressionable Christian minds!

May the Lord be with you! I will pray for you.


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## just_grace (Mar 5, 2006)

Just shut the door on them. 

On the day of judgment and our Heavenly Father says why did you do that, say, David told me so. Our Father will say, good choice.

lol.

Obvious heresy.

David

[Edited on 3-5-2006 by just_grace]


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 5, 2006)

That can't be the solution, David, because then not a Jehovah's Witness anywhere could be saved.

A lot of people may have grown up in this religion and never heard the true Gospel. If we're not going to give it to them, who is?

We're certainly not "helping them along their way" if we open the door to them. Its not like in the NT times when to do so and eat with them would be sharing in their ministry and nourishing them for more heresy spreading.

Just my humble opinion, but I think its grounded well enough in the Scriptures.


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## just_grace (Mar 5, 2006)

Surely you have to see past that?

Scripture says to close the door on that type of teaching and that is that.

I was always a bit soft towards them and it got me nowhere. I had them as neighbors on more than one occasion.

There is not a lot you can do with them.

What you find is after 5 or so years they come out of it, not all, but most.

They deny Christ. Surely thats enough,

David


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> Oooh, my ears are burning.... you guys are talking about me!
> 
> In reference to the website that Preach mentioned, it can be found here:
> ...



*First of all, I want to thank you guys for responding, this means so much to me and I really appreciate you guys. 

Thank-you for the link, I'll read up on it later. He is new-ish to the JW faith, so he is not as well-versed as some... Although I'm relatively certain he'll take some of the Scripture I gave him to his elders and he might have a few pamphlets for me.

Your post was both encouraging and humbling - humbling in that it keeps reminding me to take my time and leave it in the hands of God - for there is nothing I can do to convince him of the truths clearly taught in Scripture... No matter how hard I try. I tend to be rather blunt (too blunt more often than I'd like to admit, I come by it honestly from my father) so the lesson on patience and gentleness is being learned fast. I'm not sure that I've prayed this much for a long time - praise God for bringing me to my knees.

Your last paragraph is frankly quite frightening! I've been asking around, talking to my father and elders in our church and this cult is so demonic it's shocking. I really long for the day when He will take us home now! I thank you for your prayers and beg for more from all of you - I care about this young man and would love to see him become a brother.

Here is what I have so far in regards to Jesus as God- tell me what you think:
John 8:58 (direct reference to "I AM" [ego ami - YHWH]) "Jesus said to them, "Truely, truely, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." "

And John 20:28. Jesus has risen and Thomas doesn't believe. Then Thomas calls Him his Lord and his God. He worships Him. Now I hear that the JW's usually say that he was basically swearing? So if that is the case... They were taught to rebuke the blasphemer, but He blessed Thomas rather than rebuked him, so he was definitely referring to God.

Once again, thank-you all! *


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by just_grace_
> There is not a lot *you* can do with them.



*Emphasis mine.

Praise God we can do nothing in such a case - and praise God that He opened Mr. Hinton's eyes.*


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## JohnV (Mar 5, 2006)

It was good to read Christopher's step-by-step approach. It coincides well with what has worked in my experiences with JW's. My approach has been, since the only time I have contact with them is when they come to my door, is to let them present their initial argument. They usually have a text they want to read. From there on I force them to stick to their own text, and talk about that. They are always ready with other texts, but I always take them back to the original text, and their original argument. 

For a time they began with sounding just like Christianity, and would then introduce their own beliefs. So I would pick on the point of difference, and the text they used to justify it. 

But this is different than what you are going through Susan. They have my place marked, and I haven't seen a JW in a long time. You see your friend more often, I assume. So Christopher's method looks better all the time. The time I have with a JW is dependent upon how long they will stay to receive the points they need to for their outing. Yours is more of a quality time than I would get, it seems. I have run into a JW or two from time to time when they are not on their mission, but just sort of "on the street", in passing. And they are quite different then, sometimes. More open, or more like ordinary people. It seems like a better time to talk seriously with them, as opposed to having a debate on the front walk of your house.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 9, 2006)

*Thanks, fellas!

Saw him today but didn't mention it at all. I don't want to be pushy. I'd still appreciate those prayers!*


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## ~~Susita~~ (Dec 19, 2006)

Any more advice y'all can give would be appreciated! I'm talking to his brother now and last night he mentioned Hebrews chapter 1 (You were right, Devin). I'm preparing something for him about Jesus being Lord. Here's what I have so far:

I've found that this is probably the fastest way to find the mistake in your interpretation of John 17:3, which is is in Eph 4:4-6: “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.”

“… There is one God and one Lord”. If “One God” excludes Jesus from God, then “One Lord” excludes God from being Lord. But they share these identical characteristics. In this passage (vs. 4-6), Paul lists the particular areas of oneness, or unity: body, Spirit, hope, Lord, faith, baptism, and God and Father. He focuses on the Trinity – the Spirit in v. 4, the Son in v. 5, and the Father in v. 6. His point is not to distinguish between the Persons of the Godhead but to emphasize that, although they have unique roles, they are completely unified in every aspect of the divine nature and plan. Jehovah is not only called the Only true God (John 17:3), but the “Only Savior” (Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4; Jude 25), “Only King” (Zechariah 14:9). If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being “True God”, then Jesus is also excluded from being a Savior or King. 

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." There is a direct reference to "I AM" [ego ami, which translates out to YHWH]

John 20:28. Jesus has risen and Thomas doesn't believe. Then Thomas calls Him his Lord and his God and worships Him. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses usually say that Thomas was basically swearing. If this was the case... They were taught to rebuke the blasphemer, but Jesus blessed Thomas rather than rebuked him, so he was definitely referring to God.


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## CalvinandHodges (Dec 24, 2006)

*JW's*

Hi Susita:

Since he has brought up the Eph. 4 passage, "...One Lord, One Faith. One Baptism" then you might want to steer him to Matthew 28:19:

*...Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit...*

If there is only "One Baptism" then why does Jesus mention Three?

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 24, 2006)

Susita,
For what it's worth: The Doctrines of Grace are the antidote. It looks as if you are doing battle upon their turf. As I previously mentioned, JW's are Arminian. Their theology is works related. Simply exposing them to the doctrine of election will destroy everything else they lay claim to. Dealing with the deity of Christ is secondary. Show them that their works justification is fruitless based upon the decree of election and their theology crumbles in front of them.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Dec 26, 2006)

Thanks the both of you. I'm preparing some verses to show the depravity of man and God's sovereign election. He'll be getting a summary of TULIP as well.


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## caddy (Dec 26, 2006)

James White has some excellent material on JVs:

http://aomin.org/Witnesses.html

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm


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## ~~Susita~~ (Dec 27, 2006)

caddy said:


> James White has some excellent material on JVs:
> 
> http://aomin.org/Witnesses.html
> 
> http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm



Ooh ooh lovely, thank-you!!!


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