# Why did Israel lose the Kingdom?



## truthman1972 (May 12, 2005)

Hi all,

I have been discussing Covenant Theo. with a friend recently and I would like to ask for some help on the issue if you will

Can you folks help me with where in Scripture do we see why Israel is no longer the people of God? I know in the New Cov. it is no longer a theocratic covenant, but can someone give me some insight as to why Israel lost the Kingdom. Please leave Scripture References. I am aware of Duet. 4 and those commands by God, but is there more than that? Thanks!


----------



## Scott Bushey (May 12, 2005)

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 
Mat 21:34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 
Mat 21:35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 
Mat 21:36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 
Mat 21:37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 
Mat 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' 
Mat 21:39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 
Mat 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" 
Mat 21:41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." 
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 
Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 
Mat 21:44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."


----------



## Philip A (May 12, 2005)

Yes, Scott is right on. In fact, read all of Matt. 21-25 in one setting, and you will see it in stark detail. And as you read it keep in mind that when he says, "this generation", he really meant that generation that he was preaching to.

Also, for comparison, read the conditions and curses for covenant breaking in Deuteronomy 28 & 29.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 12, 2005)

"Israel" didn't lose the kingdom. The true Israelites obtained it as planned in eternity past. National Israel was a type and shadow of the kingdom to come. 

Romans 11
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3"LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? 4But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 
7What then? *Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.*

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by puritansailor]


----------



## larryjf (May 12, 2005)

(Rom 9:6-8)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 

(Rom 11:1-5)
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 

(Rom 11:25-26)
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 

(Rev 7:4)
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 

(Rev 21:12)
It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed--


----------



## truthman1972 (May 12, 2005)

I will try to formulate my question a little different. 

Where in Scripture do we see why God changed the covenant economy with national Israel to the Church?

In other words why now is Israel not the economy that God uses to minister to His covenant people?


----------



## Scott Bushey (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> I will try to formulate my question a little different.
> 
> Where in Scripture do we see why God changed the covenant economy with national Israel to the Church?
> ...



Tony,
The covenant economy has always been with the church...........


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> I will try to formulate my question a little different.
> 
> Where in Scripture do we see why God changed the covenant economy with national Israel to the Church?
> ...



Like I said in my email. Read Hebrews. Notice in particular chapters 11 and 12. Also read, Acts 10-11, Romans 1-4, Gal. 1-3, Eph. 1-3, or anywhere else where Paul justifies his ministry to the Gentiles. The Church was prophecied in the OT, especially in Jer. 31-34, Ezek. 36-37, and Hosea 2. National Israel was never intended to be permanent. The Messiah's kindgom is not suppose to be a physical but a spiritual kingdom.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "œthe uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands"”
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.


----------



## truthman1972 (May 13, 2005)

Thanks guys for your insight. You helped me to clarify some things I didn't have fully worked out. 


The main reason I asked this question was to help me in a discussion I am having with a dispensationalist who thinks that Israel still belongs to the Hebrews because God gave it to them. He still thinks that God gives the land of Israel to them because of the promises and since some Hebrews are believers in God, He preserves the land for them. It is strange and I am not sure how to refute it clearly.

Any ideas?

[Edited on 5-13-2005 by truthman1972]


----------



## Poimen (May 13, 2005)

Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {although...: or, should I have continued an husband unto them?} But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Where is this quoted in the New Testament? Hebrews 8:1 & 6 tell of us a better mediator than Moses, Jesus Christ. Then the author of Hebrews cites the passage from Jeremiah 31 clearly indicating that the covenant will be made with Israel & Judah, and we (the church) are that covenant people now.

BTW, Ian Duguid, professor of OT at Westminster West, made this point in our OT prophets class.


----------



## larryjf (May 13, 2005)

> He still thinks that God gives the land of Israel to them


Was it the land that Abraham was looking for in response to the promise?

From the ESV ...

[Speaking of Abraham] For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 
(Heb 11:10)

For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 
(Heb 11:14-16)


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 13, 2005)

to Larry above. That's why I mentioned Hebrews 11 and 12. There we are told clearly what the OT believers were looking forward too, not a physical nation, but to Christ. The promise land and the Sabbath were types of the great rest to come with eternal life (Hebrews 4). Also notice how Paul interprets the 5th commandment in Eph. 6:
" 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: 3"that it may be well with you and *you may live long on the earth."*" (Compare to Exodus 20 and Duet. 5). 

Focus on how Paul interprets the promise to Abraham. Also notice how the Prophets (as quoted above) speak of the new covenant, not only in reference to the Church, but also in such a way that it's impossible to make sense of them if those prophecies were to refer to physical Palestine. Dispensationalists usually try to get around this by arguing that prophecy has "double meanings", one for the Jews, and one for the Church. But clearly that is not what Jesus intended as we read through the gospels.
:2 cents:


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (May 13, 2005)

Who was the first Christian martyr in the church? Abel.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

*Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
Joshua 21:45*


----------



## alwaysreforming (May 14, 2005)

This is a fascinating study/dialogue! 
There seems to be some sort of "new spark of understanding" that is being stirred in me as I read through those Scriptures one after another like that. I think I'll read each of those Scriptures with new eyes as I come across them from now on. 

Thanks, People!


----------



## Puritanhead (May 14, 2005)

unbelief


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> *Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
> Joshua 21:45*



There is a dispensationalists stumbeling block if there ever was one!


----------



## Robin (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> I will try to formulate my question a little different.
> 
> Where in Scripture do we see why God changed the covenant economy with national Israel to the Church?
> ...



Tony,

God didn't change anything. First, note that Jesus, acting a Covenant Prophet pronounces the covenant curses upon Israel in His "Seven Woes" Read very carefully, the entire chapter of Matthew 23 all the way through without stopping. Then, at His crucifixtion, the curtain is rent in the Temple.

But wait! Read Ezekiel 36 (all of it) and note the prophecy of (us) the plan of salvation - and vindication of God's Holy Name (which is more important.) (Btw, this is the Scripture Jesus chastised Nicodemus for missunderstanding/forgetting in John 3.)


Ezekiel 36:16 - The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity. So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD, and yet they had to go out of his land.' But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel."Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. And they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the LORD; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it.

Robin


----------



## nonconformist (May 22, 2005)

> Was it the land that Abraham was looking for in response to the promise?


You just got my attention with this question,since I am a new convert to C.T. from dispensationalism.I think the lights are coming on in my brain.I was still thinking their was a future conversion for national israel(although not apart from the church)and(not 2 seperate programs) according to romans 11:26 but now that I think about that question,it dont make sense.All (Israel) will be saved,all the (church) will be saved.Correct me if I am wrong,that means he is basically done with any future revival type conversion of the LAND apart from any other land? what about v18 boasting against the branches? I wasnt giving this subject much thought until I stumbled on this post.Am i correct,was my Optomistic postmilleniel eschatology clouding my vision from seeing this?


----------



## Mayflower (May 23, 2005)

May this is an interesting book, you can order at SWRB :

GOUGE, WILLIAM (Publisher), Sir Henry Finch (Author)
The Calling of the Jews. A Present to Judah and the Children of Israel that joyned with him, and to Joseph (the valiant tribe of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel that joyned with him. The Lord give them grace, that they may return and seek Jehovah their God, and David their King, in these latter days. There is prefixed an Epistle unto them, written for their sake in the Hebrew tongue, and translated into English. Published by William Gouge, B. of D. and Preacher of God's Word in Blackefryers. London. 1621.

This book was apparently written by Sir Henry Finch, a legal advisor to King James I of England. It is noteworthy because it argues that, according to Bible prophecy, the Jews will reoccupy the promised land (i.e., Palestine, etc.) before the Second Coming of Christ. But this is not a proto-dispensationalist perspective. In fact, since the book was published by the famous Westminster Divine William Gouge, it is clear that this view was accepted by at least some of the best Presbyterian ministers of the Second Reformation.

The arguments presented here concern the future restoration of Israel. Near the beginning of the book, the author lists some rules "for the better understanding of the prophecies of this kind" (p. 6). Among these rules are the following:

"Where Israel, Judah, Zion, Jerusalem, &c. are named in this argument, the Holy Ghost meaneth not the spiritual Israel, or Church of God collected of the Gentiles, no nor of the Jews and Gentiles both (for each of these have their promises severally and apart) but Israel properly descended out of Jacob's loins" (p. 6).

"The same judgment is to be made of their returning to their land and ancient seats, the conquest of their foes, the fruitfulness of their soil, the glorious Church they shall erect in the land itself of Judah, their bearing rule far and near. These and such like are not allegories, setting forth in terrene similitudes or deliverance through Christ (whereof those were types and figures) but meant really and literally of the Jews" (p. 6).

After stating his interpretive rules, Finch provides a brief commentary on numerous passages (from both the Old and New Testaments) dealing with the future of the Jews. Thereafter he provides a relatively extensive commentary on Isaiah chapters 24, 25, 26, and 27. That is followed by extensive commentary on Daniel 9:24-27, and on the entire book of Hosea.

This is an important book for those who want to know the future role that the Jews will play in God's plan according to Historicist Postmillennialism. At some point they will turn to Christ, and this will be a significant moment in world history. The prophecies yet to be fulfilled by the Jewish people point toward a glorious future for both them and the Gentile peoples.

241 pages.

ADDITIONAL DISCOUNTED SALE PRICE UP TO & INCLUDING May 23, 2005
(Rare bound photocopy) $6.98 (Canadian funds) [$23 off!] 
(Hardcover photocopy) $19.00 (Canadian funds) [$40 off!]

AFTER May 23, 2005, OUR REGULAR DISCOUNTED PRICE BELOW APPLIES
(Rare bound photocopy) $29.98 (Canadian funds) 
(Hardcover photocopy) $59.00 (Canadian funds)


----------



## nonconformist (May 23, 2005)

So does this mean I am wrong in my thinking?


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 
> 
> > Was it the land that Abraham was looking for in response to the promise?
> ...



Most Reformed folk would agree that God is done with the land of Palestine. Most postmil's (and historic premills too) as I understand it still believe in a mass conversion of ethnic Jews before the return of Christ and after the "time of the Gentiles" is fulfilled but that doesn't necessarily mean anything for Palestine. There are some who argue the "all Israel" refers to the church or all the elect (gal. 6). But others believe that "all Isreal" refers to the elect remnant of ethnic Israel which is consistent with Paul's use in Romans 9-11. Amil's tend to believe that "all Israel," being the elect remnant of ethnic Israel, are saved synonymously with the Gentiles as they are provoked to jealousy, and that there will be no mass conversion of Jews later on.


----------



## wsw201 (May 23, 2005)

I would also suggest reading O. Palmer Robertson's book Israel of God. He deals specifically with the issues Dispensational's bring up about national Israel and the land.


----------



## nonconformist (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> I would also suggest reading O. Palmer Robertson's book Israel of God. He deals specifically with the issues Dispensational's bring up about national Israel and the land.


Right now I have a book by an auther of the name Charles D. Provan-"The church is israel now".I havent had a chance to read it yet,but am wondering if you or anyone here has read it,and would like to comment on it.I would also be interested in knowing what McMahon has to say on this subject.


----------



## Mayflower (May 23, 2005)

ROBERT MURRAY M'CHEYNE
"To the Jew first. Converted Israel, he declared, will give life to the dead world....just as we have found, among the parched hills of Judah, that the evening dew, coming silently down, gave life to every plant, making the grass to spring and the flowers to put forth their sweetest fragrance, so shall converted Israel be when they come as dew upon a dead, dry world. The remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men." Micah 5:7. Memoir and Remains of R. M. M'Cheyne - 1966 reprint pg 489. In 1840 M'Cheyne went to Ulster to plead for the interest of the Jews. This stirred up great interest. The following year the Irish General Assembly resolved to establish work among the Jews. They established missions in Syria and Germany, believing "missionary enterprise is one of the means to bring about the restoration of Israel in accordance with the Scriptures." * Minutes of the General Assembly. 1840-1850 .

JOHN MURRAY
"To the Jew first, and also to the Greek...it does not appear sufficient to regard this priority as that merely of time. In this text there is no suggestion to the effect that the priority is merely that of time. the implication appears to be rather that the power of God unto salvation through faith has primary relevance to the Jew, and the analogy of Scripture would indicate that this peculiar relevance to the Jew arises from the fact that the Jew had been chosen by God to be the recipient of the promise of the gospel and that to him were committed the oracles of God...
While it is true that in respect of the privileges accruing from Christ's accomplishments there is now no longer Jew or Gentile and the Gentiles "are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus throughout the gospel"(Eph. 3:6), yet it does not follow that Israel no longer fulfills any particular design in the realization of God; worldwide saving purpose...
Israel are both "enemies" and "beloved" at the same time, enemies as regards the gospel, beloved as regards the election..."Beloved" thus means that God has not suspended or rescinded his relation to Israel as his chosen people in terms of the covenants made with their fathers.
Unfaithful as Israel has been and broken off for that reason, yet God still sustains his peculiar relation of love to them, a relation that will be demonstrated and vindicated in the restoration."*The Epistles to the Romans, John Murray, Wm B Eerdmans Publishing Col, 1984, Vol 1 pg 28 and Vol. II pp. 14-15 and 76-101, passim.

JOHN "RABBI" DUNCAN
"Our hands now became so full of work that frequently we had not time so much as to eat bread; from early morning until late at night we were occupied guiding, counselling and instructing those who were inquiring earnestly what they must do to be saved....for a time the whole Jewish community was deeply moved wondering where unto these things would grow. * The Life of John Duncan, David Brown pg 334.

RICHARD SIBBES
"The Jews are not yet come in under Christ's banner; but God, that hath persuaded Japhet to come to the tents of Shem, will persuade Shem to come into the tents of Japhet, Gen. 9:27.. the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in Rom 11:25...but God will gather all the sheep His father hath given Him into one fold that there may be one sheepfold and one shepherd John 10:16.... the faithful Jews rejoiced to think of the calling of the Gentiles; and why should not we joy to think of the calling of the Jews..*The Complete Works of Richard Sibbes by A.B. Grosart Vol 1 pg 99. And when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, then comes the conversion of the Jews. Why may we not expect it? they were the people of God. We see Christ believed on in the world. We may therefor expect that they will also be called, there being many of them, and keeping their nation distinct from others. Richard Sibbs vol 5 pg 517

INCREASE MATHER
In his work the Mystery of Israel's Salvation Explained and Applied says the following : "That there shall be a general conversion of the tribes of Israel, is a truth which in some measure hath been known and believed in all ages of the church of God, since the Apostles' days....only in these late days these things have obtained credit much more universally than herefore."
"There is a veil of miserable blindness upon their hearts that they cannot, they will not, see the truth ; but, sayeth the Apostle, "this shall be taken away". And (sayeth he) "it shall turn". What is this? I answer; "it", there may note the body of the Jewish nation, or the words may be read, "they shall turn" (i.e. the blinded minds of the Jews shall turn) "unto the Lord".

RICHARD CAMERON
"The Lion of the Covenant" Cameron preached on May 30, 1680 from the text "and ye will not come to me, that ye might have life". In the midst of this sermon which has been described as one of the most remarkable blessed of the Lord preached in Scotland, Cameron fell into a "rap of calm weeping", and his hearers wept with him. Compelled for the moment to stop, he "prayed for the restoration of the Jews". John Herkless tells us that 200 years later, the memory of those services, had not died out among the people of the districts where Cameron spoke. Richard Cameron, John Herkless, 1896, pg 109

THOMAS GOODWIN
"There will come a time when the generality of mankind both Jew and Gentile, will come to Jesus Christ. He hath had but little takings of the world yet, but he will have before he hath done. " Sermon 34 Vol 1 pg 520. "There may be some prayers which you must be content never yourselves to see answered in this world, the accomplishment of them not falling out in your time; such as those you haply make for the calling of the Jews, the utter downfall of God's enemies and the flourishing of the Gospel...all which prayers are not yet lost, but will be answered."* Works of Thomas Goodwin Vol 3 pg 365,366.

JONATHAN EDWARDS
"Jewish infidelity shall be overthrown...the Jews in all their dispersions shall cast away their old infidelity, and shall have their hearts wonderfully changed, and abhor themselves for their past unbelief and obstinacy.
They shall flow together to the blessed Jesus, penitently, humbly, and joyfully owning him as their glorious King and only Savior, and shall with all their hearts, as one heart and voice, declare his praised unto other nations.. Nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the Jews in Rom 11.
Besides the prophecies of the calling of the Jews, we have a remarkable providential seal of the fulfillment of this great event, by a kind of continual miracle, viz. their being preserved a distinct nation...the world affords nothing else like it. There is undoubtedly a remarkable hand of providence in it. When they shall be called, that ancient people, who alone were so long God's people for so long a time, shall be his people again, never to be rejected more. They shall be gathered together into one fold, together with the Gentiles..." *The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol 1 Banner of Truth Trust, 1976, pg 607.

JOHN BRAIDWOOD
A Scottish missionary to the Gentiles in India he also remembered Israel's place in the unfulfilled promises of Scripture. He spoke on The Conversion of the Jews; and Its Bearing on the Conversion of the Gentiles. His address was published posthumously in Edinburgh in 1853. In a Preface, Braidwood writes, "We could not but express our conviction that the circulation of it was fitted to edify the body of Christ generally; while it would prove to all how strongly the missionaries to the Gentiles sympathize in efforts for the conversion of the Jews." And he closes his Preface with these considerations "to stir up our hearts to faith and prayer for Israel":
1. The national restoration of the Jews, and its blessed effects on the world. For what have they been preserved, but for some wondrous end? If their lapse is the world's wealth, and their loss the wealth of the Gentiles, how much more shall their replenishment be all this? Rom 11.12.
2. "The Jews are the whole world's benefactors. Through Jewish hands and eyes God has sent his lively oracles of truth to us. They penned, and they preserved the Bible.
3." Our Redeemer - the God-man- who has all power in heaven and earth, is their kinsman. "He took on Him the seed of Abraham."
4."Viewed nationally, the Jews are the most miserable of all nations. The Messiah wept over Jerusalem, their capital, before the curse fell on it: ought not we to weep over the accumulated progressive woe springing from the curse, and drinking up the nation's spirit for eighteen centuries?
5." Their covenant prospects are bright beyond all conception. On the grand day of their realization, will anyone of us all regret that we pitied Israel apostate and outcast?"

CHARLES HODGE
"The second great event, which, according to the common faith of the Church, is to precede the second advent of Christ, is the national conversion of the Jews ...that there is to be such a national conversion may be argued from the original call and destination of that people. God called Abraham and promised that through him, and in his seed, all the nations of the earth should be blessed...A presumptive argument is drawn from the strange preservation of the Jews through so many centuries as a distinct people.
As the rejection of the Jews was not total, so neither is it final. First, God did not design to cast away his people entirely, but by their rejection, in the first place to facilitate the progress of the gospel among the Gentiles, and ultimately to make the conversion of the Gentiles the means of converting the Jews...Because if the rejection of the Jews has been a source of blessing, much more will their restoration be the means of good...The restoration of the Jews to the privileges of God's people is included in the ancient predictions and promises made respecting them...The plan of God, therefore, contemplated the calling of the Gentiles, the temporary rejection and final restoration of the Jews...
He shows that the rejection of the Jews was not intended to result in their being finally cast away, but to secure the more rapid progress of the gospel among the heathen, in order that their conversion might react upon the Jews, and be the means of bringing all, at last, within the fold of the Redeemer...
The future restoration of the Jews is, in itself, a more probable event than the introduction of the Gentiles into the church of God. This, of course, supposes that God regarded the Jews, on account of their relation to him, with peculiar favor, and that there is still something in their relation to the ancient servants of God and his covenant with them, which causes them to be regarded with special interest. As men look upon the
children of their early friends with kinder feelings than on the children of strangers, God refers to this fact to make us sensible that he still retains purposes of peculiar mercy towards his ancient people.
As the restoration of the Jews is not only a most desirable event, but one which God has determined to accomplish, Christians should keep it constantly in view even in their labors for the conversion of the Gentiles."**Systematic Theology V3,James Clark & Co. 1906, p 805 and A Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1836, pp 270-285 passim. Now Published by Banner of Truth Trust.)

MATTHEW HENRY
"Now two things he exhorts the Gentiles to, with reference to the rejected Jews: - to have a respect for the Jews, notwithstanding, and to desire their conversion. This is intimated in the prospect he gives them of the advantage that would accrue to the church by their conversion, Rom. 11:12, 15. It would be as life from the dead; and therefore, they must not insult or triumph over those poor Jews, but rather pity them, and desire their welfare, and long for the receiving of them in again.
Another thing that qualifies this doctrine of the Jews rejection is that though for the present they are cast off, yet the rejection is not final; but, when the fullness of time is come, they will be taken in again. They are not cast off for ever, but mercy is remembered in the midst of wrath.

The Jews are in a sense a holy nation (Ex. 14:6) being descended from holy parents. Now it cannot be imagined that such a holy nation should be totally and finally cast off. This proves that the seed of believers, as such, are within the pale of the visible church, and within the verge of the covenant, till they do, by their unbelief, throw themselves out; for, if the root be holy, so are the branches...though grace does not run in the blood, yet external privileges do (till they are forfeited), even to a thousand generations...The Jewish branches are reckoned holy, because the root was so. This is expressed more plainly (Rom. 11:28)
Though particular persons and generations wear off in belief, yet there having been a national church membership, though for the present suspended, we may expect that it will be revived...It is called a mystery (Rom 11:25), that which was not obvious, and which one would not expect upon the view of the present state of that people, who appeared generally so obstinate against Christ and Christianity that it was a riddle, to talk of their unanimous conversion. Alas! who shall live when God doeth this?"
*Matthew Henry's Commentary, V 6, MacDonald Publishing Company, pp 448-453.

CHARLES SIMEON
Once at a missionary meeting Simeon had seemed so carried away with the future of the Jews that a friend passed him a slip of paper with a question, "Six millions of Jews and six hundred millions of Gentiles - which is the most important?" Simeon at once scribbled back, "If the conversion of the six is to be life from the dead to the six hundred what then? W. T. Gidney The History of The London Society For Promoting Christianity Among The Jews. 1908 pg 273

ELNATHION PARR
The casting off of the Jews, was our calling; but the calling of the Jews shall not be our casting off, but our greater enriching in grace, and that two ways: First in the regard of the company of believers, when the thousands of Israel shall come in, which shall doubtless cause many Gentiles which now lie in ignorance, error and doubt, to receive the gospel and join in with them. The world shall then be a golden world, rich in golden men. Secondly, in respect of the graces, which shall then in more abundance be rained down upon the church." The Works of Elnathan Parr, 3rd ed. 1633 pg 175

SAMUEL RUTHERFORD
"O to see the sight, next to Christ's Coming in the clouds, the most joyful! Our elder brethren the Jews fall
upon one another's necks and kiss each other! They have been long asunder; they will be kind to one
another when they meet. O day! O longed for and lovely day - dawn! O sweet Jesus let me see that sight
which will be as life from the dead, thee and thy ancient people in mutual embraces."
O that there were nations, kindreds, tongues, and all the people of Christ's habitable world, encompassing
his throne with cries and tears for the spirit of supplication to be poured down
on the inhabitants of Judah for that effect.
Letters of Samuel Rutherford Bonar's edition, pg 122-3 and early letters of Samuel Rutherford

THOMAS BOSTON
" There is a day coming when there shall be a national conversion of the Jews or Israelites. The now blinded and rejected Jews shall at length be converted into the faith of Christ, and join themselves to the christian Church," Have you any love to, or concern for the church, for the work of reformation, the reformation of our country, the reformation of our world? Any longing desire for the revival of that work now at a stand; for a flourishing state of the Church, that is now under a decay? then pray for the conversion of the Jews." Sermon in 1716 "Encouragement to Pray for the Conversion of the Jews."

JAMES ROBE
" Methinks I hear the nation of the Jews ( for such is the cry of their case) crying aloud to you from their dispersion, We were once the Church of God, beloved, while you were not; we have now been rejected of God for more than sixteen hundred years, because of our unbelief, and for this long, very long while, wrath to the uttermost hath been lying upon us! There are many promises and predictions that we shall be grafted in again...Pray therefore, and wrestle with God, that he may, according to his promise, pour forth upon the Spirit of grace and supplication, that we may look upon him whom we have pierced, and mourn"... Help us with your prayers." A Second Volume of Sermons 1750 xvi-xvii


----------



## nonconformist (May 23, 2005)

thanks for the resources RALPH good solid recources


----------



## Mayflower (May 23, 2005)

Nonconformist your are welcome! Maybe that these resources are not talking about the promse land, but it shows that there in the reformed/puritan tradition members who hath a vision for the coversion of the jews.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 
> 
> > Was it the land that Abraham was looking for in response to the promise?
> ...



Actually, I do think that the LAND itself is STILL part of the Abrahamic promise which God is fulfilling with the Church under the New Covenant. (Though I totally disagree with Dispensationalists on WHAT the importance of the land is.)

In the move from pre-cross to post-cross time, grace was greatly "expanded", if you will. In the Old Testament, salvation was primarily restricted to the location of the nation of Israel. In the NT, salvation is still available there, but is also available across the world. 

Similarly, in the OT, the "land promise" was considered to be the bounds of the nation of Israel. But in the NT, we find out that the "land promise" is actually much bigger. Does it still *include* the land of Israel? Of course. But is the land promise *restricted* only to that land? Nope. We find out in Romans 4:13 that the land promise actually includes the ENTIRE WORLD. Will Christians one day have control of the land of Israel? Certainly. But they will have control of the rest of Earth, as well. 

"_Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world_" (Romans 4:13)

"_If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise_" (Galatians 3:29)

The world has been promised to us. Over time, as Christ continues to change people's hearts, more and more people will become regenerate. Eventually, through this internal work of the Holy Spirit in many people, Christians will "inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5), but not by military conquest.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 28, 2005)

While I believe that Joseph, how do you reconcile this passage?

Matt 7:13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> While I believe that Joseph, how do you reconcile this passage?
> 
> Matt 7:13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.



I believe Christ's statement there was to the Christians of that day, and was not directed to Christians of all time. And certainly, in the first century, those words held very true. 

Lest someone think I'm just glibly dismissing a passage that is (by itself) difficult for postmillenial doctrine, please keep in mind that I have only come to this conclusion regarding Matthew 7:13-14 after considering _many other passages_ as well.

It's kind of like reading the 10th chapter of Hebrews. I have to admit that I would be an Arminian if that was the only chapter of the Bible that I knew about. But Calvinism is so explicitly clear in John 6, John 10, Ephesians 1, Romans 9, etc., that it is no longer tenable for me to hold to an Arminian interpretation of Hebrews 10.

Similarly, if I only had Matthew 7:13-14 to read, then I would be amillennial. But I also have to deal with Matthew 5:5: Romans 4:13, Galatians 3:29, Psalm 110, 1 Corinthians 15, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the parable of the yeast in the dough, the parable of the mustard seed, etc., etc., etc. . . 

And in light of all these passages, I can hardly justify throwing them all out the window because of Matthew 7:13-14, _especially_ since another plausible interpretation of that one passage is readily available.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 28, 2005)

Good points! But doesn't it seem like it still holds true today? I walked away from my Dispensational/premill beliefs and do NOT entertain them still in any way, but this passage and the fact that it still seems to be true today is the hardest thing I have encountered. Not just from those who are not Postmill, but in my own mind as well.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Good points! But doesn't it seem like it still holds true today? I walked away from my Dispensational/premill beliefs and do NOT entertain them still in any way, but this passage and the fact that it still seems to be true today is the hardest thing I have encountered. Not just from those who are not Postmill, but in my own mind as well.



Though I agree with Joseph about the promised land expanding to the whole earth, ("the meek shall inherit the earth") I don' t believe this promise will be fulfilled in this present age, but in the age to come with the new heavens and new earth. That is the Amil understanding


----------



## RamistThomist (May 29, 2005)

> Matt 7:13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.



BB Warfield has an essay/sermon on this verse titled, "are there few that be saved?"


----------



## nonconformist (May 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...


I agree,I am postmill and believe at the end christianity will be huge.But with that passage I see it as,at the time it was written,until the end,as the sum total including the last 2000 years,the unsaved sum outwayed the saved sum.If that makes any sense


----------



## Robin (May 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> Thanks guys for your insight. You helped me to clarify some things I didn't have fully worked out.
> 
> 
> ...



Tony,

The very best you could do is get your friend (perhaps you with him) to read all of the book of Hebrews...start to finish without stopping. Let the Text speak for itself. It's all right there. In order and clear. Note the OT reference texts along the way...

Meanwhile, emotional bias might be intense...so heads-up. 

Robin


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Good points! But doesn't it seem like it still holds true today? I walked away from my Dispensational/premill beliefs and do NOT entertain them still in any way, but this passage and the fact that it still seems to be true today is the hardest thing I have encountered. Not just from those who are not Postmill, but in my own mind as well.



I agree that it still holds true today. But overall, we are making progress! I would argue that a much greater percentage of people born today become Christians, compared to the world 1900 years ago.

If Christ comes back in 10 years, then I suppose my postmillenial position will be untenable. But He hasn't come back yet, so I'm not wrong yet. :bigsmile: --- Give the church another 5-10 thousand years, and you might be surprised at the percentage of Christians entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

Just think, you and I may actually be part of the _early_ church!


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 31, 2005)

Or the 'golden age' could've been the Reformation and we're living in the final apostasy!


----------



## Robin (May 31, 2005)

While I  Patrick's post....Joseph reminded me of some passages expressing _eschatalogical language_ teaching us discernment of the times ...

Hebrews 1:1-3 
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but *in these last days* he has spoken to us by his Son, 

1 Peter 1:19-21 
but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but *was made* manifest *in the last times* for your sake, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 

1 John 2:17-18
And the world *is passing away* along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. Children, *it is the last hour*, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many *antichrists have come*. Therefore we know that *it is* the last hour



Robin

[Edited on 5-31-2005 by Robin]


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> While I  Patrick's post....Joseph reminded me of some passages expressing _eschatalogical language_ teaching us discernment of the times ...
> 
> Hebrews 1:1-3
> ...



Great verses, Robin. But unfortunately (for your position), such "last days" language was common in pre-Christ Judaism, regarding the end of a particular "age", and not necessarily regarding the end of all time as we know it.

For your verses to mitigate against postmillenialism in _any_ way at all, you would have to demonsrate that the Biblical authors meant "the utter end of the world" or "the very end of time" by those passages. Certainly it was the "last hour" for Jerusalem and the apostate state of Israel . . . just a few years later Jesus came in judgment upon them, just like He promised. --- But it certainly wasn't the end of the world.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Robin_
> ...



I am beginning to see the last days as the age ending with the destruction of Jerusalem. granted, it is not air-tight, but then again, no other position is either.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jun 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> ...



Some texts for you to consider regarding the time of the "last days." 


> Acts 2
> 14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
> 17"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
> That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
> ...





> Hebrews
> 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our* sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. *


*

Clearly the reign of the Messiah takes place during the "last days." Peter ties the promise and outpouring of the Spirit to the "last days." If the last days ended in 70AD, then you have got to somehow explain how the Messianic Kingdom and the outpouring of the Spirit continue since the last days are over. *


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...


*

Yes, I was thinking about those verses last night. I said my position wasn't air-tight, only that it attempted to do justice to the available data. All I will say with respect to it now is that the "last days" appear to have different nuances, depending on the user.

Surely on one level we have to see the last days as already ending. Take Acts 2: do we still have women prophetesses in the church? 

As I said, I am beginning to see, meaning I still have work to do.*


----------



## Robin (Jun 1, 2005)

Patrick   


Hey Joseph,

The reason the "last days" language was used by the Jews is because they viewed eschatology in "two ages": this present evil age; the age to come. The OT bears this out.

The Temple was THE utter locus of Jewish existence - and in their thinking. (We can't relate to this well - but it might be like our attitude towards Washington DC, the White House, Starbuck's? Or not?) This cultural trait must not be overlooked nor underestimated. One need only to view the conflict's over there today to get a shadow of Jewish national zeal. Think first century, though. To lose the Temple (for any reason) would be the "end of THE world" to the Jew of that day.


The two-age model was taught by Paul: "this present evil age; the Age to come"...Jesus, John, et al, did also. The two ages are characterized thus: The Present Evil Age: sin & death reside; is temporal and passing away; creation groans (suffers decay) The Age to Come: Eternal life, no sin, death, decay; is permanent, God's reign is consummate; creation restored/glorified. (Paul is not a millenarian, btw.)

And for the Amill, these ages overlap because Christ inaugurated the Kingdom - saying it was present at His appearance. (Christ will consummate the Age to come at 2nd Advent.)

All I have time for now....Patrick, take it.......

Oy!

R.

[Edited on 6-1-2005 by Robin]


----------



## Robin (Jun 1, 2005)

...it just dawned on my thick brain....

the original question on this thread "why did Israel lose the Kingdom?" Let's be careful and clear, by "kingdom" we mean the *land*, right? The reign consummated by Solomon, right?

The distinction is necessary especially when explaining things to American-Evangelical friends....it's best to phrase it Scripturally: Christ is true Israel- the Vine. Gentiles are grafted-in; national Israel was cut-off....during all of Redemptive history, all the elect of the covenant endured either *by* or *through* Faith. (See Patrick's 5-13 post.)

When I think about it...we shouldn't say the church "replaces" Israel...because it doesn't actually do that. Plus, we get side-tracked by all sorts of confusing word-arguments with Dispensationalists. The church is only "Israel" in the sense that she is *IN* Christ.

Another thing that gets confused in debating is, what the Kingdom is and is not. The church is not the Kingdom of God -- though the Kingdom reigns in the hearts of believers. I think that has to get clarified, also.

Just pondering....



R.

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Robin]


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 2, 2005)

Robin


> The distinction is necessary especially when explaining things to American-Evangelical friends....it's best to phrase it Scripturally: Christ is true Israel- the Vine. Gentiles are grafted-in; national Israel was cut-off....during all of Redemptive history, all the elect of the covenant endured either by or through Faith.


If you can explain that to them successfully I give you a lot of credit,because I sure cant.When I try they look at me like I am in a cult or something.


----------



## D Battjes (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> ...it just dawned on my thick brain....
> 
> the original question on this thread "why did Israel lose the Kingdom?" Let's be careful and clear, by "kingdom" we mean the *land*, right? The reign consummated by Solomon, right?
> ...




Robin, you bring up an excellent point. When the Gospel accounts are read, Christ spoke more about "The Kingdom of God, Heaven" More than ANYTHING>

IT is a study that I have not been led to look at, but am willing to give it some serious consideration now.

What is this Kingdom that Christ spoke about sooooo much!!!!!


DMB


----------



## Robin (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by D Battjes_
> ... Christ spoke more about "The Kingdom of God, Heaven" More than ANYTHING>
> 
> What is this Kingdom that Christ spoke about sooooo much!!!!!
> DMB



.....The place where God will finally and forevermore dwell among His people:

Rev. 21:3-5

"Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." 
And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 

The Kingdom of Heaven - where we shall no longer strive with sin - the home of righteousness!

2 Peter 3:13 
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 

Beloved in Christ......let us meditate on the Kingdom of God - Heaven -- where our citizenship is enrolled!

R.

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Robin]


----------



## Robin (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> Robin
> ....When I try, they look at me like I am in a cult or something.



This is the sign that they have heard correctly. The flesh/sinfulness (even of the regenerate) fights against the Gospel --- expect it. In these moments we "suffer for Christ's sake." (See the Apostle Paul's comments re: suffering.)

Stand your ground.

R.


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by D Battjes_
> ... Christ spoke more about "The Kingdom of God, Heaven" More than ANYTHING>
> 
> What is this Kingdom that Christ spoke about sooooo much!!!!!
> DMB



The secular nation-state of Israel, whom we must support with our tax dollars, and if need be, our lives.


----------



## Robin (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by D Battjes_
> ...



Smart aleck.



r.


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> ...


That is encouraging,at least I am doing something right.I must be my evangellyfish church,is viewing me as the new Hitler:bigsmile:


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 2, 2005)

They view the puritans as hitlers army.Legalism


----------



## Robin (Jun 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> They view the puritans as hitlers army.Legalism



Ironically, the Dispie/Am Evangelicalism system is legalistic because they impose additional "laws" on the church: do not taste, touch, hear, see XYZ. "Do not smoke, dance or chew - or go with girls who do."

Being free IN Christ, we are duty-bound to exercise Christian Liberty when legalism is imposed upon us.



r.



[Edited on 6-3-2005 by Robin]


----------



## D Battjes (Jun 3, 2005)

> Being free IN Christ, we are duty-bound to exercise Christian Liberty when legalism is imposed upon us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen Robin. IT is disguised in many different hats.


----------



## turmeric (Jun 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> ...



Growing up Dispie & Pentecostal, I got a lot of guilt/fear based theology, i.e. believe this (insert non-essential doctrine here) or go to hell. Usually, it was subtle, but not always.

Now that I've wrestled my way through the perfectionistic views on sacntification I was taught, I'm hearing all the Dispie madness with new ears. Now I can hear their threatening, believe this (insert non-essential doctrine here) or go to hell rhetoric clearly. Back to the book of Colossians!




[Edited on 6-3-2005 by turmeric]

[Edited on 6-8-2005 by turmeric]


----------



## truthman1972 (Jun 3, 2005)

The legalism  problem is rooted in the misunderstanding of the law and gospel. This of course leads to the errors of justification and sanctification.


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> The legalism  problem is rooted in the misunderstanding of the law and gospel. This of course leads to the errors of justification and sanctification.


You are totally right.Ever since I started studying the law,and am basically addicted to the law now,I am totally free,more than I ever have been in my entire life.Strange law=freedom


----------



## Rich Barcellos (Jun 4, 2005)

Ps. 119:45 "And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts."


----------



## Robin (Jun 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by truthman1972_
> ...





In Christ, we are free to obey....the rest of the world is enslaved to sin.

R.


----------



## Roldan (Jun 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mayflower_
> Nonconformist your are welcome! Maybe that these resources are not talking about the promse land, but it shows that there in the reformed/puritan tradition members who hath a vision for the coversion of the jews.



What Jews?


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 7, 2005)

Rolden


> What Jews?


 Interesting, I am reading an article with this same interpretation, it seems to be a solid interpretation, defenitely some strong arguments


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> Rolden
> 
> 
> ...



For more on this subject I suggest reading Iain Murray's _The Puritan Hope_ which is available online at this site.


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> ...



I was about to recommend the same thing.


----------



## Roldan (Jun 8, 2005)

I can't find it. 

But just to tickle the ears a little  I believe that any emphasis on a future anything with national Israel shows traces of a dispensational hermenuetic. 

I as a faithful follower of Christ am Israel, I am the Land, I am the true Jew circumcised of the heart. What else could this mean? If a TRUE Jew is one inward of the heart a spiritual jewish high priest, then what would that make a physical ethnic Jew? If there are any 100% jews left anyways. which I doubt very much.

No this is not replacement theology but fullfillment theology. How can we go from shadow to reality then shadow again? I don't accept this hermeneutic.

[Edited on 6-8-2005 by Roldan]


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 8, 2005)

If you go to the link and plug in "puritan hope" as the search term, you should be able to find it. 

The Puritans based their belief on a future mass conversion of the Jews on Romans 11 in particular. It is part of standard historic Puritan postmillennial thinking.

The Westminster Standards teach this as well. It is quite distinct from erroneous dispensational views about the Jews.


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Roldan_
> I can't find it.
> 
> But just to tickle the ears a little  I believe that any emphasis on a future anything with national Israel shows traces of a dispensational hermenuetic.
> ...



If Israel in this chapter means "the church" or "elect," then why the contrast with Gentiles, who in every other contrast with the word word Israel means "non-Israelite," suggesting that Israel in this case means Israel. 

Secondly, why is Paul concerned that the elect might be lost? Sure, there are passages that exhort us to work out our salvation, make our election sure, etc.

verse 12: *and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles*, (whose failure? The Church's? No.)


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 8, 2005)

Granted,
We don't want to make the mistakes of NeoCons and Dispensationalists, both of whom worship the secular nation state of Israel.


----------



## Roldan (Jun 8, 2005)

so I am assuming you believe that there still are 100% ethnic Jew still around?


----------



## RamistThomist (Jun 8, 2005)

For the moment I have a very loose definition of "Jew." There was a thread dealing with that question that was quickly massacred by ad hominems. You raise a good point, though. To what degree is a person Jewish? I don't know.


----------



## nonconformist (Jun 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by nonconformist_
> ...


 Nice, you have all the connections


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jun 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Roldan_
> so I am assuming you believe that there still are 100% ethnic Jew still around?



Judaism was never really strictly ethnic. Gentiles were always welcome to join and did in the OT. Read Exodus, Ruth, and Esther. n Exodus, Moses recounts that other Egyptians also accompanied the Hebrews in the exodus. Esther in particular recounts a massive conversion of people to Judaism. They are probably even more ethnically "diluted" now with their spread and integration throughout Europe and America. Whatever teh case, Paul is only refering to teh elect remnant of Jews in Romans 11. The only real debate is the timing of the conversion of the remnant.


----------

