# Has this "fiscal crisis" been influencing giving and missions?



## Pergamum (Sep 26, 2008)

I have not watched the news in awhile but gather that the US economy is tanking. 

I thought Fanny May sold cookies!

How bad is this crisis and is it affecting churches and missions giving?


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## jonmo (Sep 26, 2008)

I can't speak for the US but I think it is beginning to hit churches in the UK. I have a friend who is the treasurer of an evangelical church in London and he has had several people cut back their giving in recent months because they have lost their jobs or have lower earnings. It will probably take a little more time for the full impact to be felt of the economic downturn so perhaps we will see a bigger decline next year.

From a personal standpoint, I would sadly have to cut back on giving (in line with everything else) if I lost my job for a long period of time. I was out of work for almost a year in New York immediately post 9/11 and managed to keep on giving at my pre-unemployment level but it was a real struggle. I did it in main part because our church (and lots of others) had a big dip in giving as people lost their jobs (and conversely there was a greater demand on the resources of the church because of 9/11). I would imagine churches in the likes of New York, which are heavily dependent on financial services, will see an even bigger impact this time and that its impact would be much broader throughout the US as the economic malaise continues. Don't have any data at this point - purely anecdotal.


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## Pergamum (Sep 26, 2008)

SO, this crisis affects the UK too?


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## Webservant (Sep 26, 2008)

My buddy Steve Badorf at RUF says giving is way down.


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

Yes it has... The U.S. Dollar had turned to little more than toilet paper. While there isn't really a drop in giving that I have seen, the fact that the dollar lost value and the cost of things is going up it is as if giving has gone down like 30%...

It is horrible...


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> SO, this crisis affects the UK too?



Pergy,

This is a global economy tank... Due to that fact that it is a global market when the market tanks in the U.S. they tank else where...


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## jonmo (Sep 26, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> SO, this crisis affects the UK too?



Yes, it does. The UK is pretty over-leveraged like the US. House prices are now falling, gas and food prices are high, retail sales are down, the City is feeling the same pain as Wall Street. I work at Canary Wharf and we saw Lehman employees doing exactly the same as they did in New York - carrying their boxes of personal effects out of the building.


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## DMcFadden (Sep 26, 2008)

It is too early to tell if it is impacting our organization in terms of charitable contributions (we received several large requests this year after the death of major donors and this disguises the numbers a bit). My church has noticed a small drop in giving so far. Unless the politicians come up with a fix this weekend, there will be MAJOR economic hardships to come. Normally up-beat "the fundamentals of the economy our sound" folks are drawing comparisons with the Great Depression.

It won't impact my giving as long as my wife and I are still employed.


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> It is too early to tell if it is impacting our organization in terms of charitable contributions (we received several large requests this year after the death of major donors and this disguises the numbers a bit). My church has noticed a small drop in giving so far. Unless the politicians come up with a fix this weekend, there will be MAJOR economic hardships to come. Normally up-beat "the fundamentals of the economy our sound" folks are drawing comparisons with the Great Depression.
> 
> It won't impact my giving as long as my wife and I are still employed.



DMcFadden you always end things with a smile or a jovial laugh... That is awesome!


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

I was out at the playground park with my daughter the other day and ran into a dad with his son there. He owns a luggage store at the Mall of America that he has run for about ten years - so he has been doing well. But, he said that since last October, it has been a hard run. People are traveling less, buying less (you wouldn't know it by how many video games are sold and how much credits card are used). So this is one indicator, first hand, that if people were consistently buying luggage for about nine years and it tanks for close to one year now, it shows the economy is changing. 

But many indicators will predict. Economists can be prophets for the health of the nation with regard to how it handles its money.

What are we going to see? The government handing out money hand over fist because it is an election year. Rebate checks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FDIC takeovers, mortgage buyouts. More money in the economy instantly. We are going to see inflation, sticky wages and less spending. Foreign markets are not going to buy the dollar as much which will cause devaluation and the competitive advantage of America will decrease as an aggregate. 

These are going to be rough times and the government will not solve it. They never have no matter how much money is put out there. The entirety, the aggregate, of every member has to save money and invest either for long term or in capital to grow an economy. The US doesn't save money, like, at all. Our government is telling us to spend it - after 9/11 - "go out, take that vacation, et al." and the rebate checks. This will not sustain an economy long term. 

You are going to see some serious stuff go down. Pray ye hard. Witness to others that they may trust in Christ for salvation in lieu of the economy.


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

My rebate check went to kill the heinous debt I have accrued from my education and life circumstances... I would have preferred that they pay off the Governments debt first but that wont ever happen...

I have this extreme loathing against credit now... grrrrr.....


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## Reformed Baptist (Sep 26, 2008)

jd.morrison said:


> Yes it has... The U.S. Dollar had turned to little more than toilet paper. While there isn't really a drop in giving that I have seen, the fact that the dollar lost value and the cost of things is going up it is as if giving has gone down like 30%...
> 
> It is horrible...



Perhaps then you will sell me your dollars for the price of toilet paper? Better yet, how about an even trade? Will be Charmin be acceptable? 

RB


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

Reformed Baptist said:


> Perhaps then you will sell me your dollars for the price of toilet paper? Better yet, how about an even trade? Will be Charmin be acceptable?
> 
> RB



If it is 4-ply you have yourself a deal... I just need an address and how much you want?


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

You laugh but in economies where hyperinflation occurs, money means nothing - used for burning for house heat, used as toilet paper because toilet paper literally costs more than the money that one has. Examples - Germany after WWI and WWII, Yugoslavia, Bolivia, right now in Zimbabwe. 

If the inflation rate say become 3000% per year, if you had $10,000 in the bank, if the money caught up with inflation, it would be worth $310,000 dollars. But it doesn't. It stays at $10,000. That means a $10,000 car now, at the end of the year would cost $310,000. But you only have $10,000 in the bank and need a new car. Prices will double ever 2.5 months. 

Yugoslavia's interest rate hit 5 x 10^15 cumulatively over a year. Prices were doubling ever 36 hours. HOURS. 

So, yes, real commodities will be worth than money if inflation is not controlled. Even toilet paper.


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## jogri17 (Sep 26, 2008)

Yeah, we should start using the Canadian dollar. It seems to be the most steady.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 26, 2008)

Ok for all this talk about crazy inflation and the dollar not worth a piece of toilet paper, what actually is inflation in the US? What do people even think it will be?

Perhaps New Zealand has been protected a little by all this but I do not see it as this bad.


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Ok for all this talk about crazy inflation and the dollar not worth a piece of toilet paper, what actually is inflation in the US? What do people even think it will be?
> 
> Perhaps New Zealand has been protected a little by all this but I do not see it as this bad.



The value of our dollar in the last 4 months has dropped like 15% if you compare it to the Euro, and Pound. That is one of the reasons for the high gas prices is that the US DOLLAR is how they sell barrels of Oil across the globe


Wasn't Lord Of The Rings filmed where you live?


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## Curt (Sep 26, 2008)

We in the rural communities up north have been pretty hard hit. Many of our people work several jobs - at least partly self-employed. They are suffering. Giving to the church is down quite a bit. My own pay has been affected by about 50% (that's DOWN).


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

On a side note, I am totally against another Wall Street Bailout. We are not Venezuela, this is America. One country on the globe where your right to fail is guaranteed by our Constitution...


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## jd.morrison (Sep 26, 2008)

Curt said:


> We in the rural communities up north have been pretty hard hit. Many of our people work several jobs - at least partly self-employed. They are suffering. Giving to the church is down quite a bit. My own pay has been affected by about 50% (that's DOWN).



Yeah, I feel your pain brother...


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Ok for all this talk about crazy inflation and the dollar not worth a piece of toilet paper, what actually is inflation in the US? What do people even think it will be?
> 
> Perhaps New Zealand has been protected a little by all this but I do not see it as this bad.



The nominal inflation rate in the US is about 2.5 to 4%. Inflation rates increase with the availability of money. If a government keeps releasing money into an economy, inflation will go up. There is also a strong correlation between low unemployment and high inflation. Correlation, not causation. So, if the US gvmt bails out Fannie and Freddie, gives back rebate checks, put $700b out as free money, and we know it won't stop there. Plus, with general unsteadiness, consumer confidence can cause price increases. 

I don't think that it is going to reach into the thousands of percent, at least I hope it won't. But, once inflation begins it is very, very tricky to reign in. And usually it means an economy goes into a recession to reset. 

Great questions.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 26, 2008)

In the long-run though I don't think employment is much effected by inflation, but what the concern is now is stability. Some recession is unavoidable, but the question is how it can be minimized for everyone. If inflation becomes a major concern then the next US president will be _forced_ to fight it, decrease government spending and raise interest rates. Wouldn't this be a good thing for most people?


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

It will be a good thing. But, with money injections, the government is asking for it. 

Government spending isn't much of the problem because the gvmt has always been spending money. Raising interest rates doesn't curb inflation if the economy isn't ready for it, ala late 1970s.


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