# I'm having trouble, brothers.



## Jeremy Ivens (Feb 16, 2017)

So, I'm an English major about to earn my degree. I have writing skills and I love to read. However, I've been extremely conflicted inside (not an uncommon thing for me) about what a man in Christ can and can't read. 

A lot of literature, I'm sure you know, has a lot of profanity in it. Not all of it, but most of the stuff that's well written. F-bombs, the Lord's name in vain, etc. At what point do I drop the book and say, "That's enough of that."? 

I have a history of condemning myself and of doing morbid introspection, so I definitely need some godly wisdom from you folks. Now, of course, I realize that I shouldn't read straight up smut, but it's almost impossible to read anything without ANY profanity!

Lately, I've been reading a lot of theology, and I feel much at home in those works.

What are your thoughts on this matter? It might not sound like a big deal, but it is to me.

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## greenbaggins (Feb 16, 2017)

I would read more of classical literature, from Shakespeare to Henry James. Your characterization doesn't really apply much to Dickens, Austen, James, Tolstoy, Stevenson, Scott, Dumas, Hugo, Twain, and so many others. Also, if you're looking for imaginative modern fiction that is clean, I would go with Brandon Sanderson. He is a Mormon writing epic fantasy in the vein of Tolkien (though it doesn't feel like him). And he is rather clean, especially his Stormlight Archive.

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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 16, 2017)

It took a number of years for me personally, but here is how I see it. 

It started (for me) with _junk food_. I decided, with due consideration, that if I bit in to something that I thought tasted just "OK" I would not eat it. It didn't (doesn't) matter where I am. Restaurant, church function, home, etc. If I ordered a dinner, and I didn't like it, or it didn't taste good, I was done. 60 pounds _lighter_ later....I am now very choosy about what I would "cheat with." I hardly eat very much "bad food" at all. Everything surrounds eating right as much as I can. I don't cheat on anything that I would have "cheated with" many years ago. Total revamp.

That translated into media. Movies, books, magazines, newspapers, etc. I had a few subscriptions to a number of outdoor magazines, and such. Things in those mags got out of hand. *Delete. *Same with most movies. *Delete. *TV shows - Fox News is about all I can tolerate, and I only handle about 15 minutes of that on the Fast Forward DVR button. Then there is the occasional female flick with my wife from Hallmark. Painful, but sometimes necessary. We really would rather watch the Westminster Dog Show, or something like Barnwood Builders.

I just use this rule: "Brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-- *meditate on these things*." (Phi. 4:8). That cancels out most worldly distractions. the good things about that is that _I'm OK with that. _It deletes most of Hollywood, media, magazines, shows, Netflix, etc.

It saves me money, which in turn allows me to use that money more for the kingdom. It saves me time, in which I can walk more circumspectly. I have more of an energy for the kingdom in these last few years than ever before. 

I makes me feel terrible in that _I should have been thinking this way all along_. It's one of the reasons why we need to be sitting under godly pastors and mentors who will tell us "NO" to such things.

William Perkins has a plaque above his desk, "Though art a minister of the Gospel. Be about thy business." 
That can translate into "You are Christian....make true religion and Christ your business, interest, desire, goal, and chief love."

Don't be afraid that you are "losing" out on those things if you hit the delete button. The devil is in the details, and things which do not edify us in Christ, tear down in secret.

Hit the DELETE button.

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## Jeremy Ivens (Feb 16, 2017)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> It took a number of years for me personally, but here is how I see it.
> 
> It started (for me) with _junk food_. I decided, with due consideration, that if I bit in to something that I thought tasted just "OK" I would not eat it. It didn't (doesn't) matter where I am. Restaurant, church function, home, etc. If I ordered a dinner, and I didn't like it, or it didn't taste good, I was done. 60 pounds _lighter_ later....I am now very choosy about what I would "cheat with." I hardly eat very much "bad food" at all. Everything surrounds eating right as much as I can. I don't cheat on anything that I would have "cheated with" many years ago. Total revamp.
> 
> ...




Thanks, Brother McMahon.

I love your store, by the way. I even bought the old school coffee mug haha.

That's pretty well what I was thinking, I just wanted some sort of confirmation, I guess. If I read theology, my spirits lift (unless it's bad theology) and I really feel at home. I just don't know what I'm going to do with the English degree. The thing is, I love putting my thoughts on things above and thinking about the Word, theology, Jesus, all things whatsoever are true about God. So I'm not sure why this internal struggle even started. 

But I will take your advice. I can't carry all of those books to Heaven, anyhow.


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## greenbaggins (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeremy, your English degree will ever serve you in enabling you to interpret better the books that you read. T. David Gordon thought that all seminary students should have an English degree, so that they know how to interpret a text. Something to think about. Get into biblical interpretation, and your English degree will serve you very well indeed.

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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeremy Ivens said:


> Thanks, Brother McMahon.
> 
> I love your store, by the way. I even bought the old school coffee mug haha.
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree with Rev. Keister - let your English degree serve you by using it to serve Christ. Could it be in biblical interpretation? Sure. Could it be by writing something from a Christian worldview perspective that would impact the church and Christians for all time? Sure. Use it wisely.

Glad you like Old School - me too!

I think your mind is in the right spot. Invest in yourself what you CAN carry to heaven.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 16, 2017)

Thoughts of someone else who loves to read and is trying to read more again ... Having a more robust understanding of God's goodness increasingly helps me to respond more open heartedly to the things I read, and think through them more clearly. But I also don't want to grieve His spirit or cause someone else to stumble, sinning against their own conscience. Still if one has been given a joy in literature, it is one of the full orbed ways in which that person was created to delight in fellowship with God, to seek Him and find Him. The English degree isn't an accident. Some tentative considerations:

1. Any piece wrestling with the curse is going to have to portray it: the Bible itself does this. I think much modern literature does rely on shock value in lieu of other values -- in general we have turned toward ugliness. One of the significant World War II poets expressed this pretty clearly in his letters, where he justified a loss of lyricism in his poems, a deliberate shock effect in meter (something I think we no longer even hear as powerfully as it was intended because we have since lost our ear for lyricism), because there was no longer any reason to hope. Another of his poems is very poignant with a rubble of buildings around him, expressive of the rubble of all past belief: people of his generation were having to learn to balance where angels could no longer stand (Keith Douglas). Turning away from the vision of reality as a creation that coheres in the Maker's purpose does entail a fracturing of experience, and we seem largely to have turned toward the more sordid, filthier and sharpest fragments to seek an ultimate truth we used to grope for in beauty. (Theodore Dalrymple cites politicization: 'Our view of the world has become so politicized that we think that the unembarrassed celebration of beauty is a sign of insensibility to suffering and that exclusively to focus on the world’s deformations, its horrors, is in itself a sign of compassion.' https://www.city-journal.org/html/beauty-and-ugliness-14283.html) Sometimes I think we have simply lost compassion: the more an artist deforms themselves and others the more we applaud. It feels like applauding while someone drowns or dies. Yet even our most ancient literature portrays the curse pretty harrowingly. I think there is a difference between grappling with aspects of the curse and reveling in them: an artist doing the first (as in Marilynne Robinson's _Housekeeping_) doesn't have to rely on smut so much as the artist doing the second. Reality is far more textured than mere cursing and profanity, and its real pain is far more pervasive in even innocent things.

2. I would think much depends on a subjective effect. I don't necessarily mean the effect on morbid introspection, but a more immediate effect. Is the literature stirring up lust, wrath, cruelty to others, depression, pride, etc. Maybe at some points in life we are able to read things we can't at others? I struggle now to read Dostoyevsky, because of how heavily it crushes me. At one time I was more depressed than his work leaves me, and it helped me to hope. Maybe I will come to an even healthier frame still.

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## LilyG (Feb 16, 2017)

I empathize. Glad you brought this up. The comments are helpful to me! I struggle a bit with seeing reading fiction as a waste of time. 

So embarrassing.


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## johnny (Feb 17, 2017)

Ahh Keith Douglas, Vergissmeinnicht.
Surely one of the most moving war poems ever written.






Right up there with Wilfred Owen's work, I love Owen's version of the Little Mermaid.
Thanks for that Heidi, (sorry for derailing the thread)

Give me some good poetry over modern fiction any day.

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## Ed Walsh (Feb 17, 2017)

Jeremy Ivens said:


> A lot of literature, I'm sure you know, has a lot of profanity in it. Not all of it, but most of the stuff that's well written. F-bombs, the Lord's name in vain, etc. At what point do I drop the book and say, "That's enough of that."?



Dear Jeremy,

Here are some Scriptures that crossed my mind relative to your situation.

Zechariah 14:20
_In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE Lord;
and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar._​
One Day will come to the cultures of the whole world will honor the Lord; when even the smallest of details, the minutest decorations, a time when even the “bells of the horses,” will declare, “Holiness unto the Lord.” How I long for that Day with weeping and earnest prayer. But, until then, we must fight the good fight and lay hold on eternal life. (1 Timothy 6:12)

So then “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” For when it comes to fleshly lusts, “Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”? (1 Corinthians 5:6)

Dearly beloved, until the Day comes when even the bells of the horses cry Holiness unto the Lord, “I beseech you [then] as strangers and pilgrims, [to] abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” (1 Peter 2:11) “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16)

As you consider the things your eyes and ears are taking in, and how you can’t avoid pondering these questionable ideas, remember that “the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

O Be Careful, Little Eyes
O be careful little eyes what you see
O be careful little eyes what you see
There's a Father up above
And He's looking down in love
So, be careful little eyes what you see

O be careful little ears what you hear
O be careful little ears what you hear
There's a Father up above
And He's looking down in love
So, be careful little ears what you hear

O be careful little hands what you do
O be careful little hands what you do
There's a Father up above
And He's looking down in love
So, be careful little hands what you do

O be careful little feet where you go
O be careful little feet where you go
There's a Father up above
And He's looking down in love
So, be careful little feet where you go

O be careful little mouth what you say
O be careful little mouth what you say
There's a Father up above
And He's looking down in love
So, be careful little mouth what you say​


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## Stope (Feb 17, 2017)

15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:15-16


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## Jeremy Ivens (Feb 17, 2017)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Yes, I agree with Rev. Keister - let your English degree serve you by using it to serve Christ. Could it be in biblical interpretation? Sure. Could it be by writing something from a Christian worldview perspective that would impact the church and Christians for all time? Sure. Use it wisely.
> 
> Glad you like Old School - me too!
> 
> I think your mind is in the right spot. Invest in yourself what you CAN carry to heaven.




Biblical interpretation is fascinating. I mean, the English degree can't be an "accident", right? I'm trying to put the pieces of my life together....

I've loved reading since I learned how to read. I read a lot of old fashioned stuff because my mother was poor. So, I actually prefer the KJV because the archaic language isn't difficult for me. I'm good at learning other languages...and I made a sizeable investment into the Puritan Hard Drive because it's a wonderful tool that God has provided.

I'm trying to put together a "providential portrait" if that makes sense...


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## jwithnell (Feb 17, 2017)

Lifelong reader here -- I'd estimate that about 75 + percent of my reading is non-fiction because good fiction can be hard to find. History, specifically social history (yup, I just read a book about how Americans ate during the Depression) the development of scientific ideas, political science, and biography can be good sources. The older Pulitzer prize winning fiction can be at least worthwhile.

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## mgkortus (Feb 18, 2017)

jwithnell said:


> Lifelong reader here -- I'd estimate that about 75 + percent of my reading is non-fiction because good fiction can be hard to find. History, specifically social history (yup, I just read a book about how Americans ate during the Depression) the development of scientific ideas, political science, and biography can be good sources. The older Pulitzer prize winning fiction can be at least worthwhile.



I'm with Jean. Most of what I read is non-fiction. I especially enjoy medical-history. Importantly, for your question, much of this kind of literature is free of profanities. For example: The Emperor of All Maladies and Spillover

In addition, I recommend reading books by or about missionaries. These are typically free from filth and they can be quite inspiring. For example: Through the Gates of Splendor. 

While those are some recommendations for reading, I want to encourage you to continue in the direction that you are heading: purge away all that is sinful! That is growth in holiness.


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## py3ak (Feb 18, 2017)

Jeremy Ivens said:


> Biblical interpretation is fascinating. I mean, the English degree can't be an "accident", right? I'm trying to put the pieces of my life together....
> 
> I've loved reading since I learned how to read. I read a lot of old fashioned stuff because my mother was poor. So, I actually prefer the KJV because the archaic language isn't difficult for me. I'm good at learning other languages...and I made a sizeable investment into the Puritan Hard Drive because it's a wonderful tool that God has provided.
> 
> I'm trying to put together a "providential portrait" if that makes sense...



The best way to prepare for the future is faithfulness where you are right now. God's providence often winds up surprising us. But if you have been given a love for and facility with texts and languages, that can certainly be a spiritually profitable skill.

If you're about to graduate with a degree in English, the odds of you having been exposed to _pernicious nonsense_ are extremely high -- not just in your assigned readings from fiction, but also with regard to the theories of literary criticism that you have been taught. 

So in addition to reading theology, history, fiction, and poetry it might prove very useful to add in some sober literary criticism and literary history. For instance, Robert Alter's _Pen of Iron_ is a penetrating analysis of how American writers have been influenced by and have used the KJV. C.S. Lewis' _The Discarded Image_ is tremendously important. The old _Oxford History of English Literature_ is a good resource, though the volumes are of uneven quality. Samuel Johnson's _Lives of the Poets, _the _Rambler, _and the _Idler_ will cut through a lot of nonsense while giving great delight. 

A lot of mistakes that people make arise because their learning is not broad enough. Deep knowledge of one particular area is good, but without a breadth of exposure to place it in proper context, even mastery of the details doesn't prevent mistakes.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 18, 2017)

I really love fiction for various reasons. I think it helps us understand other people and ourselves. A good author is weaving a net in which something is communicated, something that could not be communicated in analytical statements: but that flutters in story, like a snared bird -- I think Lewis drew that analogy. The Bible itself is not a dogmatics book, but a history, weaving through many 'stories' (of human failure, as well as grace) what dogmatics books cannot replace, however necessary they are.

Of course, the Bible is true. But fiction is tapping into something actual in the fabric of God's world, in the exercise of creativity. God's creative power first called the world into existence and gives hope to a fallen world. He has this incredible ability to call the things that are from things that are not. The exercise of human creativity is not an ungodly act. It is one of the ways in which we bear His image and are able to fellowship with Him. It is one of the capacities of our human nature that remind us to hope beyond hope in our Maker. The most daring leaps of human creativity are only playing on the edges of His transfiguring power.

A doctor or nurse may wish to find a practice where patients are not always aging, or manifesting disease. A policeman may wish to find a part of the city where no one is beating their wife, doing drugs, homeless. A scientist might wish to work in a field where nobody is putting forth atheistic theories. A reader of non fiction might wish to only encounter books that interpret reality from a biblical worldview. A pastor might wish to have a congregation where no one struggled with ongoing sin. A theologian might wish to never need to encounter serious error. An English teacher might wish to read only fiction in which everyone behaves well, and lives happily ever after. Whereas fiction is always bearing witness that humans are full of troubles and bad solutions (including, but not limited to, profanity). But it is also bearing witness, like the wonders of scientific discovery, that God's creative power is part of our experience. And it bears witness that words themselves are powerful. People who still really believe in a revelation of Word can have a wide field of endeavor in the possibilities of language.

That said, I don't think I have read a book that used much profanity in ages. I think some really great writers of our age (like Annie Dillard, Marilynne Robinson, Herbert Mason) have demonstrated that serious literature doesn't have to rely on that to make an impact, even in modern times. I used to feel guilty for reading Winnie the Pooh, so can well understand struggling to read fiction -- I would never want to urge anyone to do anything they can't do in fellowship with the Father, or that would displace priority on His word. That is what we were each made and redeemed for and what every capacity is meant to be filled with; the individuality in our makeup means we aren't all going to fellowship with God in the same joys.


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## Cymro (Feb 18, 2017)

Take a time machine back to AD 30 and step out into the literal presence of Christ. Would you countenance swearing, sexual activity and innuendo, crass jokes and unholy banter? Has he not pledged to be always with us and in us though we see Him not? Our directive is, whatsoever is pure and of good report. The other guidance is love thinketh no evil, and once unholy things are read or watched they are in the thoughts. The very word fiction means feigned or false. We have the truth, and what a truth! To prize it and live by it, and do so for the One who is the truth will take all our diligence and industry. So the Apostle, for to me to live is Christ.

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## Jeremy Ivens (Feb 18, 2017)

py3ak said:


> If you're about to graduate with a degree in English, the odds of you having been exposed to _pernicious nonsense_ are extremely high -- not just in your assigned readings from fiction, but also with regard to the theories of literary criticism that you have been taught.



That is not true at all. I've been involved with literature since I was a child, and my university has done a wonderful job.

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## py3ak (Feb 18, 2017)

Jeremy Ivens said:


> That is not true at all. I've been involved with literature since I was a child, and my university has done a wonderful job.



Let me rephrase. If your English degree exposed you to recent approaches to literary criticism, then you were exposed to a lot of pernicious nonsense. That does not mean that your university was necessarily pushing that on you. Thus when you study church history you are exposed to a lot of damaging heresy because you study about Arius and the Arian party, for instance. But that doesn't mean that professors of church history are heretics.


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## ThomasT (Feb 18, 2017)

Jeremy Ivens said:


> So, I'm an English major about to earn my degree. I have writing skills and I love to read. However, I've been extremely conflicted inside (not an uncommon thing for me) about what a man in Christ can and can't read.




Let’s not look at fictional literature as a danger to be avoided; instead let’s appreciate it, as C.S. Lewis did, as a way of “seeing with a thousand eyes.” In one of his books on literary criticism, Lewis remarked, and I’m paraphrasing, “we all know people who don’t read fiction, and many of them we like; we just don’t enjoy their conversation once we’ve exhausted sport, current affairs, and the weather.”

Literature turns our narrow minds into boundless spaces of imaginative riches. Think how destitute we’d be without all the wonderful stories we’ve read. It’s actually a horrifying thought to entertain. Remember that God gave us imagination as a gift, not a curse. Literature allows us to benefit from other people’s gifts, not just our own. Literature is a double gift: It’s a manifestation of the gift given to the author by God as well as a gift of the author to us. We limit our grasp of God’s creative power when the only pieces of God creation we’re conscious of are those tiny fragments formed by the experiences we’ve had and the limited imaginative resources we were born with.

But what about _bad_ literature? Should we read it? It depends on what we mean by “bad.” Stories poorly told are bad and should generally be avoided because they fail to take root in our minds, their means of transmission (the authors’ skills) not being up to the task. As such they’re a waste of time. And they may even have the effect of darkening our mood, as their failure to capture our imagination will inevitably annoy. (They can also impede our growth as writers, the way we write being highly imitative.) The trashy novels on sale at airports usually fall into this category.

Stories that are told well but that fail to interest us (even though they may interest others) likewise should probably be avoided, and again, because they waste our time. I’m not a fan of crime mystery, so I don’t read it, even though the best crime mysteries certainly demonstrate an enviable degree of skill. Crime mysteries simply don’t take up residence in my mind. (And I’m poorer for it, by the way; my aversion to crime mystery isn’t a virtue.)

But what about depravity? Does a book with depraved characters doing depraved things make a book bad? Sure – if we’re willing to condemn as bad nearly every book ever written that’s widely regarded as an example of great literature. We’d have to start by throwing out the whole corpus of Greek mythology. (Never did a character in fiction delight in adultery more than Zeus.) Many of the medieval romances would have to go, as would much of Shakespeare and his contemporaries. Great novelists, like – well, like almost all of them – would end up in the trash heap, too. _Anna Karenina_ would have been “better,” according to this way of judging literature, if the title character had stayed faithful to her husband. (Dear Mr. Tolstoy: A quick suggestion on how to make your book a good one versus a bad one. We love your precious Anna, and we think she's got ridiculous potential, but let’s strive to make her more Christ-like. Absolutely no adultery. Looking forward to reading about a splendidly virtuous wife and not a filthy harlot. Incidentally please spare us the suicide at the end. Awful. –Thanks, your admiring editors)

People _aren’t_ Christ-like. And so we can’t write purportedly realistic fiction that isn’t _false_ if we don’t accept depraved behavior as the default condition of mankind. It is, ironically, the very books that simply portray us as we are that succeed in making depravity less appealing. Both _Madame Bovary_ (Flaubert) and _Anna Karenina_ are more effective at revealing the hopelessness and despair of adultery than a thousand sermons. But both books would have lost that effectiveness if they’d taken a _moralistic tone, _or even worse if the heroines had found the strength to overcome temptation. A good novelist shows us our monstrous condition (even if this wasn't his chief aim) and then lets us draw the ugly conclusions for ourselves.

But what about smut? Should we read it? I’m not a fan of smut (leaving the obvious moral issues aside for the moment); smut simply isn’t any good. Show me a single example of good smut. I really don’t think it exists. The Marquis de Sade (for example) is barely readable. His breathtaking brazenness succeeds only in thrilling us for a moment and then before we know it we’re bored. It’s hard to remember a single scene from _120 Days of Sodom_. But I can remember almost every scene from _Blood Meridian_, the savagely dystopian Cormac McCarthy masterpiece about the opening of the Wild West following the end of the US-Mexican War. And _Blood Meridian_’s most infamous character, the Judge, is as much of a devil as the most dissolute libertine ever dreamed up by the Marquis de Sade or John Cleland.

So I don’t think we’re really facing much of a dilemma. As literature, smut truly is terrible, and moreover the threat it poses to our morals (the job of smut is to enflame our passions, and this at least is something it sometimes does well) isn’t a danger any of us would seriously consider dismissing.

If it’s good, and you like it, read it, even if it’s got some objectionable words in it. (Unless of course it offends your conscience.) If it’s bad, don’t. Some on this forum may disagree with me, but I'm convinced that good literature, even with objectionable language, needs no justification.

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## LilyG (Feb 19, 2017)

ThomasT said:


> It is, ironically, the very books that simply portray us as we are that succeed in making depravity less appealing....
> 
> A good novelist shows us our monstrous condition (even if this wasn't his chief aim) and then lets us draw the ugly conclusions for oourselves.



This reminds me of the series, Breaking Bad. Brilliantly written.


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## jwithnell (Feb 19, 2017)

I love finding good fiction, particularly books that have a strong sense of place. It's the "good" that's the hard part. "All the King's Men" finds monstrousness in an affair and a final shift to the wrong that can come from power. But some of Robert Penn Warren's other books are just bizzare morally.

David Gutterson gives gritty insight why someone might choose to prematurely short-cut a fatal illness, and shows the main character forced to enage life in "East of the Mountains." but I'm not sure I can embrace all his work.

"Grapes of Wrath" gives a great fictional account of what John Steinbeck encountered as a journalist. He returns to that approach in "Travels with Charlie;" But "East of Eden"? Yikes!

Then there's critically-acclaimed authors who completely extol immortality in all their work. It's a hard slog.

Short story anthologies can make very satisfying reading (Is Glimmer Train still published?) but you careen from great story to yuck!

I am particularly blessed by what may have been a golden age of youth fiction written in the 1940s and 50s that I remember or have engaged during home schooling. "The Yearling" and "My Side of the Mountain" and "Johnny Tremaine" barely start the list. But sometimes I want something more literarily challenging.


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