# Matthew 18,6 - Preseverance of the Saints?



## Zimon (Nov 17, 2010)

Hello,
First of all, i want to excuse my English for the case it might be weak, it's not my mother tongue.
I'm also new to Reformated theology so my question might be very stupid. I searched this Subforum and didn't found anything related to this, so I started this thread here.

Matthew 18,6
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

For me that sounded like it would possible that a sheep can be mislead by someone else and renounce (At leastin the German version, It might sound a bit different in the KJ-translation) but that would contradict with the doctrine of the Preseverance. Or did Jesus just meant those who followed him but did not belong to the elects? 
Greetings
Zimon


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 17, 2010)

Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]


I think the passage in question relates to the seriousness of sin and the general warning not to fail in our duty to protect those young in age and young in faith (Mat 18:10). That the elect continue to sin once regenerate is a given yet that is another discussion. Are you diving into reformed theology with the guidance of the Westminster Confession and catechetical teachings?

Welcome to the board! God Bless you.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 17, 2010)

Welcome, Zimon!
Item 1) if you see below my signature, there is a link leading to instructions for completing and automatically inserting signature after each post, so as not to have to type it each time.

2) The easiest way to understand this particular text is to realize Jesus says nothing about that little lamb forsaking him utterly, but to realize that he cares for their HURT, not merely for their BEING. In English, the "offense" isn't BY the sheep, but AGAINST that sheep. The question of perseverance is not directly an issue in this text. As noted by CJ, it is a warning passage to those who would do damage (spiritual or physical) to Jesus' sheep.

The related issue: can a person who appears to all earthly eyes to be a sheep be lured away to his destruction? Especially when this happens to a "vulnerable" person, if it makes us angry, how much more Christ, the head of the church. But he will never lose his own precious believers whom he loved and died to save.


----------



## Zimon (Nov 17, 2010)

1. As for the Signature: I've already tried it, I hope it works this time...

2. Ah, I think I got the point. It has really something to do with the translation. I used the Luther translation and he explicitly says "to lure a beloved sheep to fall off from its faith". Now I looked up different translations (Schlachter, Elberfelder) for they are known to be more precise and they say: "to cause a sheep to commit a sin", which sounds more like the "offend" of the KJ-Bible. I will use those translations in future more often, I think 

3. Well, It is quite hard for me to dive into Reformated theology because we do not have any reformated churches here. Baptists, Lutherans, United Protestants but no real Reformated christians, the official Reformated Church of Germany is against TULIP and says in their program that there is no predestintation, so I wouldn't count them as Reformated. I read the Heidelberger Catechism and the 1. and 2. Helvetic Confession, some Letters of Zwingli and Ursinus and some parts of the ICR by Calvin, which I recently ordered to study it at home. But in my opinion there is a lack of good Reformated literature in German language, for example I was searching for a book about Covenant Theology and didn't find anything.


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 17, 2010)

By the way, your English is excellent. Remarkable in the land of Luther, little reformed resources. If you go to the esword website, there are several German translations available for download, most without cost. Calvin’s Institutes, Henry and Gills commentaries, Schaffs History and a host of other free downloads. The PCA has missions to Germany. If you go to the World Missions page at the PCA website, you may contact them there. I am sure some of the other reformed denominations would reach out to help you as well. Seek out the reformed, there may well be far more than you might think. Mission to the World (PCA)


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes, your English is quite good, Zimon, and thank you for getting the signature done.

I would think that Luther's translation would still be helpful to look at and use frequently. Just as the KJV is a venerable translation, with many good qualities, so too I hardly think that Luther's work should be relegated to the shelves. But newer renderings can help (as well as confuse the issue at times!), as we see by comparing English versions also.

Here is a link to new efforts in Germany to revive the Reformation church in one of its cradles:
Selbständige Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Heidelberg

May God bless you.


----------



## Zenas (Nov 17, 2010)

Zimon said:


> But in my opinion there is a lack of good Reformated literature in German language...



Ironic.

Simon,

This is an odd question, however, are you friends with an American family that spent some time in Germany?


----------



## rbcbob (Nov 17, 2010)

These four German translations are provided in BibleWorks.

EIN Matthew 18:6 Wer einen von diesen Kleinen, die an mich glauben, zum Bösen verführt, für den wäre es besser, wenn er mit einem Mühlstein um den Hals im tiefen Meer versenkt würde.

L45 Matthew 18:6 Wer aber ärgert dieser Geringsten einen, die an mich glauben, dem wäre besser, daß ein Mühlstein an seinen Hals gehänget, und er ersäuft würde im Meer, da es am tiefsten ist.

LUO Matthew 18:6 Wer aber ärgert dieser Geringsten einen, die an mich glauben, dem wäre es besser, daß ein Mühlstein an seinen Hals gehängt und er ersäuft werde im Meer, da es am tiefsten ist.

LUT Matthew 18:6 Wer aber einen dieser Kleinen, die an mich glauben, zum Abfall verführt, für den wäre es besser, daß ein Mühlstein an seinen Hals gehängt und er ersäuft würde im Meer, wo es am tiefsten ist.


----------



## Zimon (Nov 17, 2010)

@seajayrice: O thank you  And thank you very much for the link, as well! I will try it out tomorrow, unfortunately I'm having internet problems at the moment and I'm forced to use a 10 years old laptop with a mini-screen, so no fun when reading  Of course it seems strange that there is not enough literature in German (at least in my eyes) but this was related to modern literature, luckywise you are still able to get the old stuff (like Luthers books or Calvins ICR for example)

@Contra_Mundum: Of course I won't ban my 4 Luther Bibles in my bookshelf for ever but now I'm considering to buy a Schlachter-Bible as well  The Luther bible for a German protestant is what the KJ Bible is for an English Protestant I think. We grow up with it and thats the one that is used in every Protestant church. Your link is *Gold*! This is the greatest thing I've seen in a while! I didn't know something like this existed. When I read their program I just thought "that is what I was searching for, all the time"  I am 18 years old and will finish with school next year. I wanted to study theology and become a pastor and had the choice to study in Marburg or in Heidelberg, now I know where I want to study. Thanks again!

@Zenas: Odd question, indeed  How do you come to think of that? Well, a few weeks ago, relatives of my grandparents (and so they were my reatives, too) did a trip to Germany. They have German roots but it was the first time for them to be here. Both were of Lutheran faith and they live in Texas, I think. They were staying at my grandparents house in Marburg and I came to visit them for one day. Very nice people. Does this help you in any way? 

@rbybob: Thanks. First one is the Catholic one I think, second and third are a bit strange and the last one is the one that caused me to create this thread


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 17, 2010)

You are welcome Simon. Did you see the other reformed Believer from Germany in the Bible Defense thread???
http://www.puritanboard.com/f16/please-recommend-me-good-book-defending-faith-sola-scriptura-64347/


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 18, 2010)

Came across this article today on reformation in Germany.

The Ongoing Reformation In Germany


----------



## Zenas (Nov 18, 2010)

Simon,

I know a family who knows a fellow in Germany named Simon and since they are Reformded-ish folks, I wondered if that were somehow you. It's a small world, but apparently not that small.


----------



## Zimon (Nov 18, 2010)

Interesting article. It's about the same church that Contra_Mundum already mentioned. As I saw, Sebastian Heck is also registered here in PB. Heidelberg is only one hour from here so it might be possible for me to visit the church one Lord's Day.

@Zenas: I also know another family in America, but they are not very religious, they are living in Washington State, you probably do not mean them either. It would have been really funny if you would have known my American relatives but as you've said, neither Germany nor the USA are a small country


----------

