# Praying with "Thou" (and Spanish Equivalent)



## Afterthought (May 25, 2015)

Is it more proper to address God in prayer as "Thou" or as "You" for English speakers?

I used to think along the lines of the following argument: God is addressed in the singular in the Scriptures, so to more accurately address God, we should use the singular person in our language too. But I've been wondering lately, isn't "you" an implied singular when a singular person is addressed? So using "you" suffices when addressing God in prayer, since the implied context is that of addressing a singular person, rather than all three persons of the Trinity?

Another argument of merit I've heard is that "thou" is a more reverential language and is the English speaking language of prayer. But I've been wondering, (1) was "thou" used as a familiar pronoun, rather than reverential and then changed to reverential over time, (2) do people become uncomfortable or take offense when hearing someone praying with "thou," even thinking them pretentious or (if a new believer) discouraged to pray because unable to use "thou" properly, and (3) while "thou" was the prayer language once, it seems like most use "you" these days, so wouldn't "you" now be the language of prayer?

To this argument is added that reverent forms of address are used in the Scriptures so we should use reverent forms when addressing God. But I've been wondering, aren't reverent forms used when people use "you" (e.g., "Heavenly Father")? Does that then make "thou" obsolete as a reverential English form?


Edit: An example of some of these arguments: http://www.bibleleaguetrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/archaic_or_accurate.pdf


As a side question, does anyone here know whether "tu" or "usted" is the equivalent form in Spanish? "Usted" sounds a bit odd to use (to this non-native speaker), but it would be helpful to have some confirmation.


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## MW (May 25, 2015)

There are religious forms which influence the answer to the question, e.g., the Authorised Version, Scottish psalter, prayer book, traditional hymns, etc. If one is discipled in a framework where these forms are valued the use of "thou" will carry a sense of propriety. Also, if one is in a country whose government continues to use the traditional forms, there may be a sense of social obligation, especially if the traditional British view of church and society is valued. As an example, in Australia we have the following Parliamentary prayer: "Almighty God, we humbly beseech Thee to vouchsafe Thy blessing upon this Parliament. Direct and prosper our deliberations to the advancement of Thy glory, and the true welfare of the people of Australia."


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## Jack K (May 25, 2015)

Jesus' instruction that we address God as our Father would seem to have some bearing. Whatever reverence, familiarity, special language, etc. you would take with your father would seem appropriate for speaking with God. For most Americans, this would not include language like "thou" that is no longer part of everyday speech (even very formal and respectful speech). But for some Spanish speakers in some cultures, I think it might include "usted." Is that right?


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## Afterthought (May 25, 2015)

MW said:


> There are religious forms which influence the answer to the question, e.g., the Authorised Version, Scottish psalter, prayer book, traditional hymns, etc. If one is discipled in a framework where these forms are valued the use of "thou" will carry a sense of propriety. Also, if one is in a country whose government continues to use the traditional forms, there may be a sense of social obligation, especially if the traditional British view of church and society is valued.


Most in the US are discipled in a framework where "you" is used and taught to use "you" because that is how they would talk to any person (basically, Jack's argument above). In the denomination I am a part of, the American ministers and elders use "thou" when they are in Scotland but "you" in America. They even feel a sense of impropriety in using "thou" in the American context (e.g., they talk apologetically about times in which they slipped into using "thou" in a public setting) because they don't want people to take offense.

And in the US, it seems no tradition is too sacred to quickly become obsolete, i.e., there don't seem to be any traditional forms at all regarding this matter in our government such that a sense of social obligation is created.





Jack K said:


> But for some Spanish speakers in some cultures, I think it might include "usted." Is that right?


It might be the case. I was taught "usted" was a more formal address, but I don't recall whether it was used with one's own father and mother.


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## MW (May 25, 2015)

Afterthought said:


> In the denomination I am a part of, the American ministers and elders use "thou" when they are in Scotland but "you" in America. They even feel a sense of impropriety in using "thou" in the American context (e.g., they talk apologetically about times in which they slipped into using "thou" in a public setting) because they don't want people to take offense.



This is one of the reasons the reformers rejected the imposition of foreign authority.

The Bible and the Psalter should have a shaping influence on the believer. I do not see why one should apologise for it.


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## Afterthought (May 25, 2015)

MW said:


> This is one of the reasons the reformers rejected the imposition of foreign authority.


Sorry, I'm not following. Are you referring to the use of "thou" in one nation and "you" in another, all in one "denomination?" (And as an aside, I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the imposition of a foreign authority either, although I don't know how churches could be planted in foreign lands otherwise.)



MW said:


> The Bible and the Psalter should have a shaping influence on the believer. I do not see why one should apologise for it.


Does that include those for whom their Bible and Psalter (if they have one) speak with "you"? Perhaps the most appropriate practice is to use whatever one's Bible and Psalter shape one's language to use ("thou" for some; "you" for others) and not be concerned over what other Christians may think who were shaped by a different Bible translation and Psalter?


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## God'sElectSaint (May 25, 2015)

I use "thou" and "thee' and "thy" quite often though not always. It probably comes from reading the King James I am sure. But If one finds it to be respectful in his own heart I think they should use it. I think some of Romans 14 would apply here. I enjoy using the Thous and Thees and such in prayer and I do it out of reverence and honor. So for me it's honoring God the Father of course for someone else this may not be acceptable or important for them. This isn't something I would be dogmatic about but If I choose to use these terms in Public prayer I think my chose should be respected.


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## Afterthought (May 25, 2015)

God'sElectSaint said:


> I enjoy using the Thous and Thees and such in prayer and I do it out of reverence and honor. So for me it's honoring God the Father of course for someone else this may not be acceptable or important for them. This isn't something I would be dogmatic about but If I choose to use these terms in Public prayer I think my chose should be respected.


Yes, this is the position I've been leaning towards lately. Perhaps due to the use of the AV and Scottish Psalter (those "shaping influences"), using "you" just doesn't feel natural to me any more (I was raised to use "you").


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## MW (May 25, 2015)

Afterthought said:


> Sorry, I'm not following. Are you referring to the use of "thou" in one nation and "you" in another, all in one "denomination?" (And as an aside, I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the imposition of a foreign authority either, although I don't know how churches could be planted in foreign lands otherwise.)



Under one church government there is an affectionate tendency to loyalty. The same applies in the civil sphere. Imposing church government across national boundaries brings these loyalties into unnecessary conflict.



Afterthought said:


> Does that include those for whom their Bible and Psalter (if they have one) speak with "you"?



Sure; understanding of course that the failure to differentiate the singular and plural forms of the original is less than accurate; but this just pushes the issue back to another question.


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## God'sElectSaint (May 25, 2015)

MW said:


> Afterthought said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I'm not following. Are you referring to the use of "thou" in one nation and "you" in another, all in one "denomination?" (And as an aside, I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the imposition of a foreign authority either, although I don't know how churches could be planted in foreign lands otherwise.)
> ...



This is true Matthew if I use my NASB I always end up checking my KJV for "ye's" to see if the you is a plural. They should put a star or number beside plural you's in modern versions or even better yet you could just read a King James


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## MW (May 25, 2015)

God'sElectSaint said:


> even better yet you could just read a King James



You will get no argument from me.


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## Philip (May 26, 2015)

Jack K said:


> But for some Spanish speakers in some cultures, I think it might include "usted." Is that right?



I know in German, the "du" (familiar) form is used. The English "thou" derives from the same Germanic root.


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## SeanAnderson (May 26, 2015)

'Thou' is not formal and respectful language. It only has that nuance now because it is archaic.

'Thou' was simply the second-personal singular pronoun, and rendered the same in Hebrew and Greek. 'Ye' (oblique: 'you') was the second-person plural pronoun.

'Ye' also became the second-person _singular_ pronoun in polite, formal use. It is not used this way in Bible translations, however, because they remain faithful to the grammar of the original languages. 'Thou', which was more informal in English speech dropped out of use.

I like the use of 'thou' and 'ye' in the KJV, but there is no particular reason to address God with 'thou' in our prayers.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 26, 2015)

God'sElectSaint said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > Afterthought said:
> ...



Or better yet, adopt the proper southern vernacular and use "y'all."


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## py3ak (May 26, 2015)

Chileans address God as _usted_; if not absolutely unique, this is comparatively anomalous to the more typical use of _tu_.


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## hammondjones (May 26, 2015)

py3ak said:


> Chileans address God as _usted_; if not absolutely unique, this is comparatively anomalous to the more typical use of _tu_.



In Bolivia I never heard anything but_tu_ for God, that I can recall. This is the Lord's prayer from the RV1960:



> 9 Vosotros, pues, oraréis así: Padre nuestro que *estás *en los cielos, santificado sea *tu *nombre.
> 10 Venga *tu *reino. Hágase *tu *voluntad, como en el cielo, así también en la tierra.
> 11 El pan nuestro de cada día, dánoslo hoy.
> 12 Y perdónanos nuestras deudas, como también nosotros perdonamos a nuestros deudores.
> 13 Y no nos metas en tentación, mas líbranos del mal; porque *tuyo *es el reino, y el poder, y la gloria, por todos los siglos. Amén.




The use of thee and thou for formality's sake is kind of ironic since they were the familiar, cf. Sir Walter Raleigh was insulted by Sir Edward Coke with "I thou thee, thou traitor!", by addressing him with the familiar.


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## God'sElectSaint (May 26, 2015)

SeanAnderson said:


> 'Thou' is not formal and respectful language. It only has that nuance now because it is archaic.
> 
> 'Thou' was simply the second-personal singular pronoun, and rendered the same in Hebrew and Greek. 'Ye' (oblique: 'you') was the second-person plural pronoun.
> 
> ...



No there isn't but like I said it's something I do. For me it sets my prayer apart from my everyday usage that's kinda why I like the KJV bible. I believe if someone feels it honors God they should use it like I said I think Romans 14 is a good reference point in this topic.


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## Afterthought (Jun 3, 2015)

MW said:


> Sure; understanding of course that the failure to differentiate the singular and plural forms of the original is less than accurate; but this just pushes the issue back to another question.


Well then, I think I can see how the "Archaic vs Accurate" argument could get its teeth. We desire to use a more accurate translation over a less accurate; in English, this includes a distinction of singular and plural forms; our religious forms, such as our Bible and Psalter, ought to inform how we pray; ergo, etc.


Basically, on one side, the argument is we either should not, or there is no reason to, use "thou" because it is not how people talk to others that we respect. On the other side, the Bible and Psalter are the decisive factor when it comes to how we should pray because...their language instills a certain religious reverence that we ought to cultivate in prayer (?).

So anyone want to give a reason why we should either pray in the manner that we talk to others that we respect, or why we should let our religious forms determine how we pray?


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## TylerRay (Jun 3, 2015)

William Young of the Presbyterian Reformed Church wrote a small article about this subject. It can be found here.

The following is a gem:


> It is sometimes said, "the change has taken place and we must adjust ourselves to it as to a fait accompli, even if we are unhappy about it." This is an invalid argument, if the change is a change for the worse. The interests of Biblical religion are not advanced by the condoning of innovations that arise from the declension prevalent in the visible church and that tend to accelerate the downgrade movement. Those who find themselves obliged to swim against the stream may do so with the confidence that the Head and King of the church is on the throne and will, in due season, vindicate the cause of truth.


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## Afterthought (Jun 3, 2015)

Thank you! That is very useful.


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## JimmyH (Jun 3, 2015)

When I was a child, in the 1950s, and prayer was part of the school curriculum in the USA, we said the Lord's Prayer, and the 23rd Psalm as they are in the King James version. When I began reading the Bible for myself it was mainly the King James version, and I find that I pray, publicly or privately, in that vernacular, because I am programmed that way out of habit. Though our pastor has stated from the pulpit that it is not necessary to pray in that form, he does so himself. Also out of many years of following that practice.

I wish I could recall which of the many sermons, on youtube, I heard D.A. Carson speak on this. Since he grew up speaking French, in Quebec, Canada, learning English as a second language, he speaks his prayers in modern English. Hearing him do so it sounded so very natural. Our Father God understands all languages, since He is the Father of them all. I suppose He is more concerned with our hearts in prayer than our tongues.


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