# Women reading scriptures outloud in the worship service from the pulpit?



## PCAdummy (Feb 13, 2012)

Is allowing women to read scriptures out of line with the BCO? I am told this is the way the PCA is going. Is it not in conflict with WLC to have any non-ordained read the scriptures in public?


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## Christopher88 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am member of a PCA Church and they allow women and non ordained members to read the word in public. 

Kellers church allows women to read scripture. 

I'm going to keep quiet on my feelings regarding this practice, but I fall in lines with the Westminster. (That is all I will say)


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## Rufus (Feb 13, 2012)

Usually one of the elders gives the reading, recently a woman did give the reading, but thats the only time out of 4 or so months of attendance. I'll also remain quite on the subject for now.


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## Unoriginalname (Feb 13, 2012)

I have seen it, dislike it and will follow the pattern of not commenting further


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## Romans922 (Feb 13, 2012)

It is contrary to WLC 156. *Q. 156. Is the Word of God to be read by all? *A. Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation, yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves, and with their families: to which end, the holy scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.

It is contrary also to 1 Timothy 2:11-12, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." She must learn quietly. She is not to exercise authority or teach. Reading Scripture is a form of teaching and an exercising of authority. Teaching, you think reading a book to your child, you are teaching them in some sense. 

It is contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 


Those two Scriptures are both in the context of public worship.

As for the BCO, in that section (chapter 50) it is not constitutionally binding but wise pastoral advice basically. It says, 50-1, "The public reading of Holy Scripture is performed by the minister as God's servant..." 

50-2 says, "The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person." That last phrase "some other person" historically means some other man. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd write up a complaint against the action of the Session (as it is a public act and they know exactly what they are doing). But that is just me (I am a Pastor in the PCA). If you'd like further comment from me, please PM me.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 13, 2012)

The idea a woman can do anything a non-ordained man can do unfortunately is the norm in the PCA and ARP. That idea is abhorrent and unbiblical (as well as unconfessional). 

Those of us who are crazy enough to still think the Standards mean something and should be followed are unfortunately much maligned on this issue especially.


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## Rufus (Feb 13, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> The idea a woman can do anything a non-ordained man can do unfortunately is the norm in the PCA and ARP.



What can a non-ordained man do in the church that a woman can't? The WLC from my limited exposure on the issue from what Pastor Barnes posted above seems to indicate that any non-ordained church member is prohibited from public reading of the scripture.


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## Mushroom (Feb 13, 2012)

When God's Word conflicts with the culture, the scripture tells those that are His what we are to do:


> Rom. 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


That has never been popular or 'cool'. Sounds like you've got one of the products of our seminaries who prefers 'cool'. I'm very sorry for the hard things your congregation is likely to have to endure in the coming years. Remind us to pray for you often.


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## PCAdummy (Feb 13, 2012)

I agree Brad and I my initial thoughts are not to approve, But I keep hearing " this is the way the PCAs going" and also that "reading is not teaching," etc. And of course " thats the way Tim Keller's church does it" And then theres the argument.....WELL THEN, WHY DO WE LET WOMEN SING?


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 13, 2012)

If the pastor or leadership _is_ something of a source of the problem, and your respectful petitions are not heard by them, there is a process of appeal to the larger church (Presbytery).

At some point, many people get exhausted trying to "fight city hall," or the struggle is too painful for other reasons, and for the sake of their own peace they feel they must find a new church-home.

Please take whatever steps you do, in whatever direction you go, with much prayer.


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## asc (Feb 14, 2012)

Rufus said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > The idea a woman can do anything a non-ordained man can do unfortunately is the norm in the PCA and ARP.
> ...



I'm a newb so I'm also very curious about this question. Any reply would be appreciated.


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## Constantlyreforming (Feb 14, 2012)

hmmmm...

before singing a few weeks ago, my daughter who is 5 stood up and read from the scriptures, from the books of Isaiah chapter 40, verses 26-31 I believe.
maybe I should have not permitted her to do so, eh?

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Romans922 said:


> It is contrary to WLC 156. *Q. 156. Is the Word of God to be read by all? *A. Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation, yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves, and with their families: to which end, the holy scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.
> 
> It is contrary also to 1 Timothy 2:11-12, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." She must learn quietly. She is not to exercise authority or teach. Reading Scripture is a form of teaching and an exercising of authority. Teaching, you think reading a book to your child, you are teaching them in some sense.
> 
> ...



Andrew,

HOw does this work in your church?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. *If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home.*_ For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church_." 


do the women ask questions of their husbands in church? Are they inquisitive during sunday school?

seriously, just curious as to how closely you follow the Biblical model.


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## Romans922 (Feb 14, 2012)

"in church" based on the context is referring to public worship. Apart from understanding that, the verses seem self-explanatory.


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## Constantlyreforming (Feb 14, 2012)

Romans922 said:


> "in church" based on the context is referring to public worship. Apart from understanding that, the verses seem self-explanatory.



Is sunday school public worship, or is that considered private? What about our church that has all adults in one sunday school class?


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## Mushroom (Feb 14, 2012)

Sunday school is not worship. The service of worship usually falls between the call to worship and the benediction.


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## Romans922 (Feb 14, 2012)

Sabbath School is not public worship. Your second question may be a bit off topic. I don't exactly see the relevance to whether it is or is not right for women to read Scripture in public worship.


To add to the argument, and this being a Confessional board, the West. Dir. of Publick Worship states, "Reading of the word in the congregation, being part of the publick worship of God, (wherein we; acknowledge our dependence upon him, and subjection to him,) and one mean sanctified by him for the edifying of his people, is to be performed by the pastors and teachers."


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## Constantlyreforming (Feb 14, 2012)

Romans922 said:


> Sabbath School is not public worship. Your second question may be a bit off topic. I don't exactly see the relevance to whether it is or is not right for women to read Scripture in public worship.
> 
> 
> To add to the argument, and this being a Confessional board, the West. Dir. of Publick Worship states, "Reading of the word in the congregation, being part of the publick worship of God, (wherein we; acknowledge our dependence upon him, and subjection to him,) and one mean sanctified by him for the edifying of his people, is to be performed by the pastors and teachers."



I do understand the point, Andrew. Thanks!

I do wonder whether we should abide by the whole verse, and encourage our ladies to not speak at all in the churches, as the scripture clearly says. It doesn't only say in front of hte church and during worship, but rather 

*the women should keep silent in the churches*

and

*For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church*


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## Romans922 (Feb 14, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Sabbath School is not public worship. Your second question may be a bit off topic. I don't exactly see the relevance to whether it is or is not right for women to read Scripture in public worship.
> ...



I believe those commands should be taken in context with what is being spoken about in chapter 14 (along with thinking through 1 Timothy 2). That is in the context of 'prayer and prophesying'. Obviously the congregation is called to sing (this would include women). So it seems based on the context that in those things women should keep silent. In the times of singing, taking vows, etc. women should be allowed to 'speak' at the appropriate time.


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## SRoper (Feb 14, 2012)

Rufus said:


> What can a non-ordained man do in the church that a woman can't? The WLC from my limited exposure on the issue from what Pastor Barnes posted above seems to indicate that any non-ordained church member is prohibited from public reading of the scripture.



Unordained men can be licensed to preach and can be elected moderator of a congregational meeting where there is no teaching elder.


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## jwithnell (Feb 14, 2012)

Isn't the primary issue here leadership during public worship? The scriptures both in example and direction clearly put this responsibility to men in various roles.


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## PCAdummy (Feb 14, 2012)

Jack K said:


> Laura:
> 
> If I may, allow me to observe that you've quickly brought up three issues you have with your pastor in a forum where, if you've been reading past posts at all, you pretty much know already that you'll get a lot of opinions critical of him. This sounds like it isn't healthy. It feels like you may be frustrated or angry and are soliciting feedback that'll make you feel justified in your anger.
> 
> ...



Actually there has been much dialogue in our church about these matters (mostly healthy dialogue).This is all very much out in the open. I have friend whom I love on both sides. I think see some of the changes are fine. I don't see a problem in the changes in the Lord's Supper or use of the Lectionary, and originally I was fine with the women reading the scripture, but I have recently been convicted on the matter of women reading scriptures in the worship service. Of course I dont want any conflict in our church. I am not angry or bitter.(not yet anyway) .....just confused. 

I tried to go back and read past posts, but none of them seemed to exactly fit our situation.


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## Edward (Feb 14, 2012)

PCAdummy said:


> Is allowing women to read scriptures out of line with the BCO?



Yes



> I am told this is the way the PCA is going.



While not doubting that you've been told that, I'm not sure that it is correct. Certainly, it is not an unusual practice in the PCA, but is it really gaining ground? Are the worst aspects of Kellerism continuing to spread? Or is the movement beginning to meet resistance?

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Constantlyreforming said:


> before singing a few weeks ago, my daughter who is 5 stood up and read from the scriptures, from the books of Isaiah chapter 40, verses 26-31 I believe.
> maybe I should have not permitted her to do so, eh?



Not enough information given. If it was in corporate worship, you should not have permitted her to do so.


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## Jack K (Feb 14, 2012)

PCAdummy said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > Laura:
> ...



I'm glad to hear there's been healthy dialogue. And I certainly don't want to make you feel unwelcome here. Glad you're on the board.


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## SRoper (Feb 15, 2012)

I will assume Rev. Greco's prerogative and make the observation that this issue was already dealt with at the 25th and 26th General Assemblies by the Committee for Review on Review of Presbytery Records. The committee referred to 1 Cor. 14:34, 1 Tim. 2:11-15, and WLC 155-159 in response to Southern Florida Presbytery holding a "worship service for the purpose of organizing a church and installing its pastor [that] included a lady who 'led one congregation in the opening prayer' and another lady who 'read passages of Scripture' prior to the sermon." [Minutes of the 25th General Assembly, p 218; Minutes of the 26th General Assembly, p. 252]


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## Constantlyreforming (Feb 15, 2012)

This has been interesting discussion. Still, no one has answered, really, the following:



> I do wonder whether we should abide by the whole verse, and encourage our ladies to not speak at all in the churches, as the scripture clearly says. It doesn't only say in front of hte church and during worship, but rather
> 
> the women should keep silent in the churches
> 
> ...




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Edward said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Constantlyreforming said:
> ...




Technically, it was just before public worship. so I shouldn't have to ground her.


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## Romans922 (Feb 15, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> This has been interesting discussion. Still, no one has answered, really, the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As to no one answering your question, I thought I did in post #19: http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/wom...loud-worship-service-pulpit-72729/#post929759


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## Romans922 (Feb 15, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> This has been interesting discussion. Still, no one has answered, really, the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As to no one answering your question, I thought I did in post #19: http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/wom...loud-worship-service-pulpit-72729/#post929759


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## Constantlyreforming (Feb 15, 2012)

Andrew, I know, but I am wondering, outloud,why we do not necessarily prevent them from also asking questions during the church service. Surely the Bible was clear that questions, even if asked to the husband, should be asked AT HOME. The NOT SPEAKING seems to not only apply to during the worship service, but in churches in general....


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## JML (Feb 15, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> The NOT SPEAKING seems to not only apply to during the worship service, but in churches in general....



Not sure I am following. Maybe you can clarify but do you mean they should not speak while in the church building? If so, I think the Scripture is not talking about "in the church building" but only means "in worship." A lot of early churches met in homes. Therefore, if the text means "in the church building" then no women could speak whenever they were in that particular home, which doesn't make sense. Plus, I don't think Paul was thinking about the modern setup of church buildings, etc. Church then met in homes, rented spaces, or in a public area.


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## Edward (Feb 15, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> Technically, it was just before public worship. so I shouldn't have to ground her.


 No punishment for her. SHE is not the one at fault. 

Does Bible Church mean the same thing there as it does in Texas? 

[


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