# PCA African-American Ministries Coordinator Newsletter



## SemperEruditio

I posted this in the prayer forum however since it is opening discussion I posted here as well to allow discussion.

Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator



February 2009

Dear Friend

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Colossians 3:11

The daughter of one of our members came to me recently asking if there was a PCA church in Austin TX like New City Fellowship. I had to admit ignorance and told her that I would get back to her. The young lady was going off to college and wanted to attend a PCA church with some degree of ethnic diversity. She wanted a worship experience similar to the one she had grown accustomed to at New City. After some investigating I suggested several PCA churches but warned her that she might be among the onesie-twosies. 

I have a friend who lives in Baton Rouge and recently discovered reformed theology. He visited Redeemer Church in Jackson MS and was impressed by the teaching as well as the fact that Pastor Mike Campbell was African American. He is frustrated with his current church and wondered if there was a multi-ethnic church like Redeemer in Baton Rouge. I told him that there are PCA churches in Baton Rouge but that he and his family might need to join the ranks of the onesie-twosies. He immediately knew what I meant and was concerned about feeling welcomed into the fellowship.

I met an African American gentleman on a plane who asked if I could recommend a good Bible teaching church in Atlanta. I was surprised by the question knowing that there were many African American churches in Atlanta. In his experience he found his choices to be limited to ether fundamentalist churches with rigid rules or “health and wealth” churches that were only interested in his money. What he wanted was a church that taught the Word of God from a reformed perspective. I told him about Redemption Fellowship in South Atlanta but he told me that he lived more than an hour away. I recommended a church closer to home, but warned him that he might be the only African American in attendance. At best he and his family would join one or two other African Americans in attendance becoming what I called the onesie-twosies.

Onesie-twosies is a term I coined to describe many PCA churches that have one or two African Americans in attendance. When my wife and I attended a PCA church for the first time in 1981 we were the only African Americans. I noticed when I visited the nearby McLean Presbyterian there was also only one other African American family
~ Over please ~
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in attendance. We got to know the family and began to describe ourselves as the onesie-twosies. When I visited other PCA churches I noticed that most of the churches had at least one or two African Americans in attendance, thus the term - onesie-twosies. 

Not all African Americans are prepared to be onesie-twosies. It’s difficult being the only one. Most prefer to attend a church where there are others like themselves or at least where there is some degree of ethnic diversity. What I often hear from onesie-twosies is - “I don’t really like the worship experience, but I love the teaching.” I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve heard this statement repeated. Often they continue by saying, “I would love to attend a PCA church where they are more culturally sensitive but they just don’t exist. Can the PCA plant a multi-ethnic church in my neighborhood?” 

Presently I am aware of three cities that want to plant PCA churches with African American leadership. Some of our white church planters are looking for an African American partner and will not begin the work until they find such a person. There are three multi-ethnic churches with vacant pulpits looking for African American pastors. The call for African American leadership far exceeds the supply. Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?

If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.

In His Service,

Plummer

Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator
__________________


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## OPC'n

I don't understand this really. What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place? I wonder if we are carrying the world's perspective on race into the church and making it the priority on choosing a church. However, I will pray that God raises up more reformed preachers of every race as we certainly need them.


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## SemperEruditio

Hamalas said:


> So I'm curious, what are some particular obstacles that African church goers face in a predominantly white church? He said that he wished these churches had more "cultural sensitivity" but what does that look like? Are there specific things we are doing that are alienating our black brothers needlessly? When my father pastored a small PCA church in Lutz, Fl we had white, black, Asian, and Hispanic congregants. Here in Kansas we have a predominantly white church (not by design that's just the way its worked out) with a bit of ethnic variety. (Some onesie-twosies you might say!) I'm genuinely curious here, what is it that makes African Presbyterians uncomfortable in a predominantly white church?





-----Added 5/30/2009 at 09:57:25 EST-----



TranZ4MR said:


> I don't understand this really. What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place? I wonder if we are carrying the world's perspective on race into the church and making it the priority on choosing a church. However, I will pray that God raises up more reformed preachers of every race as we certainly need them.



Are any of the hymns composed by African-Americans? What era are the hymns from and are they limited to that time period alone?


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## LadyFlynt

TranZ4MR said:


> I don't understand this really. *What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place?* I wonder if we are carrying the world's perspective on race into the church and making it the priority on choosing a church. However, I will pray that God raises up more reformed preachers of every race as we certainly need them.



Go to an all black, inner city, Baptist church and tell me how comfortable you feel  Now picture those people being the only black person, in a white suburbanite church, where you don't even hear an occasional "amen", the music sounds more like a funeral parlour than praise and worship (no offense, but the Trinity hymnal took some getting used to even by me), and the pastor doesn't seem to be excited about what he's preaching on.

*This is not to insult...it's perspective only! I've known some fiery white ministers and some that are simply enjoyable to listen to, even if they are "tame"  There is much to be said about culture and what one is accustomed to. And much balance to be maintained, on the flip side of that.

-----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:10:59 EST-----

hmmm, a good portion of this thread disappeared...


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## raekwon

LadyFlynt said:


> hmmm, a good portion of this thread disappeared...



It was split into two threads . . . the original is still in the Prayer Request forum, and this one is more for discussion.

BTW, I'm mulling over the question you asked in the other one, and I'll respond here.


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## Edward

TranZ4MR said:


> I don't understand this really. What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place?



Have you ever worshiped in a predominately Black church? 

Have you ever worshiped in a traditional Presbyterian church? 

Completely different worship styles, music, congregational participation. Quite possibly different style of attire. 

That's enough to make anyone uncomfortable.


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## OPC'n

SemperEruditio said:


> Are any of the hymns composed by African-Americans? What era are the hymns from and are they limited to that time period alone?



I'm not sure who wrote which hymn much less the race, but if they proclaim the Word of God it doesn't matter to me which race wrote them. Does it matter to you? Isn't God suppose to be getting all the glory anyway and not man?

-----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:32:57 EST-----



LadyFlynt said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand this really. *What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place?* I wonder if we are carrying the world's perspective on race into the church and making it the priority on choosing a church. However, I will pray that God raises up more reformed preachers of every race as we certainly need them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go to an all black, inner city, Baptist church and tell me how comfortable you feel  Now picture those people being the only black person, in a white suburbanite church, where you don't even hear an occasional "amen", the music sounds more like a funeral parlour than praise and worship (no offense, but the Trinity hymnal took some getting used to even by me), and the pastor doesn't seem to be excited about what he's preaching on.
> 
> *This is not to insult...it's perspective only! I've known some fiery white ministers and some that are simply enjoyable to listen to, even if they are "tame"  There is much to be said about culture and what one is accustomed to. And much balance to be maintained, on the flip side of that.
> 
> -----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:10:59 EST-----
> 
> hmmm, a good portion of this thread disappeared...
Click to expand...


I didn't feel comfortable in an all white baptist church that I went to once but that was because it was baptist not a certain race. If I went to a Presbyterian all black church and they sang songs that honored God and used which ever instruments they wanted to use and preached the Word of God like it's suppose to be preached, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The reason I had a problem with the all white baptist church is because of all the man-made laws I saw going on in that church from the moment I stepped foot in it. I don't care what race the church is, if they are worshipping according to the RPW and are preaching the law of God and His Gospel in a truthful manner, then I should embrace that church whole-heartedly as my family.

-----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:36:53 EST-----



Edward said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand this really. What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever worshiped in a predominately Black church?
> 
> Have you ever worshiped in a traditional Presbyterian church?
> 
> Completely different worship styles, music, congregational participation. Quite possibly different style of attire.
> 
> That's enough to make anyone uncomfortable.
Click to expand...


Why? If a person is looking for a reformed church which worships in the RPW and preaches the truth, why would anyone feel uncomfortable? If I went to a Pentecostal church black or white I would feel highly uncomfortable, but that would be because they are not worshipping according to the RPW and most likely their preaching isn't quite up to snuff.


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## LadyFlynt

TranZ4MR said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are any of the hymns composed by African-Americans? What era are the hymns from and are they limited to that time period alone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure who wrote which hymn much less the race, but if they proclaim the Word of God it doesn't matter to me which race wrote them. Does it matter to you? Isn't God suppose to be getting all the glory anyway and not man?
> 
> -----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:32:57 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand this really. *What does preaching the true Gospel and singing hymns have to do with race? If all agree that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then why feel out of place?* I wonder if we are carrying the world's perspective on race into the church and making it the priority on choosing a church. However, I will pray that God raises up more reformed preachers of every race as we certainly need them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go to an all black, inner city, Baptist church and tell me how comfortable you feel  Now picture those people being the only black person, in a white suburbanite church, where you don't even hear an occasional "amen", the music sounds more like a funeral parlour than praise and worship (no offense, but the Trinity hymnal took some getting used to even by me), and the pastor doesn't seem to be excited about what he's preaching on.
> 
> *This is not to insult...it's perspective only! I've known some fiery white ministers and some that are simply enjoyable to listen to, even if they are "tame"  There is much to be said about culture and what one is accustomed to. And much balance to be maintained, on the flip side of that.
> 
> -----Added 5/30/2009 at 10:10:59 EST-----
> 
> hmmm, a good portion of this thread disappeared...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't feel comfortable in an all white baptist church that I went to once but that was because it was baptist not a certain race. If I went to a Presbyterian all black church and they sang songs that honored God and used which ever instruments they wanted to use and preached the Word of God like it's suppose to be preached, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The reason I had a problem with the all white baptist church is because of all the man-made laws I saw going on in that church from the moment I stepped foot in it. I don't care what race the church is, if they are worshipping according to the RPW and are preaching the law of God and His Gospel in a truthful manner, then I should embrace that church whole-heartedly as my family.
Click to expand...




Skip the theological issues. It was an example. The point was the cultural style and differences. MOST people ARE uncomfortable when they feel like they don't fit in...to the extent of feeling unwelcomed.


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## OPC'n

I understand that, LadyFlynt, but church isn't a social group where we try to find our little click. I hear the same complaint amongst white people. For example, many young families won't come to our church because there are not a lot of people in their twenties with whom they can be friends. There's nothing wrong with having friends but one shouldn't discard a church because they won't find friends their age!!! It's completely ridiculous. Now that person is going to a not so good church because she has decided that making friends is more important than solid biblical worship. I caution anyone on choosing a church based on anything earthly. If a church as lots of nationalities, then that's a bonus and I wish all our churches had this. But one shouldn't reject a church because they might be the minority. There is no minority in God's family. We had Native Americans in our church and they felt right at home. They only left so that they could be missionaries to their own people.


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## LadyFlynt

TranZ4MR said:


> I understand that, LadyFlynt, but church isn't a social group where we try to find our little click. I hear the same complaint amongst white people. For example, many young families won't come to our church because there are not a lot of people in their twenties with whom they can be friends. There's nothing wrong with having friends but one shouldn't discard a church because they won't find friends their age!!! It's completely ridiculous. Now that person is going to a not so good church because she has decided that making friends is more important than solid biblical worship. I caution anyone on choosing a church based on anything earthly. If a church as lots of nationalities, then that's a bonus and I wish all our churches had this. But one shouldn't reject a church because they might be the minority. There is no minority in God's family. We had Native Americans in our church and they felt right at home. They only left so that they could be missionaries to their own people.



No, it's not supposed to be to find a "clique". However, when the majority of the church seems to be one, do you really want to stick around with people that you sit next to on Sunday, but who otherwise have nothing to do with you/don't seem to understand where you are coming from? What kind of looks would a black man get if he said, "amen!" to something a pastor said. 

What SHOULD be and what IS are two different things, unfortunately. And that is the point.


On the Native Americans: one family doesn't represent the whole of the issue. They are the exception.


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## OPC'n

Sorry I spelled clique wrong . If the whole church is a clique, then I wouldn't call that a reformed church and so that person still needs to search for a reformed church since he hasn't found one. My church is the OPC adn if a black man said amen in our church, he would get the same looks as the white baptist man who just lost his church and is now attending our church gets....not one look since we all agree with his amen because our preacher rocks with his preaching! We just are not vocal as he is but we agree with him. Really, this shouldn't be an issue. My pastor has said time and again that if we started getting other nationalities in our church then our instruments could change to incorporate their tastes too and we don't mind people saying amen but that doesn't mean I have to yell out amen. However, he stated that we would never veer from the RPW and that should always be the point.


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## Edward

TranZ4MR said:


> Why? If a person is looking for a reformed church which worships in the RPW and preaches the truth, why would anyone feel uncomfortable? If I went to a Pentecostal church black or white I would feel highly uncomfortable, but that would be because they are not worshipping according to the RPW and most likely their preaching isn't quite up to snuff.



Perhaps you need some cross-cultural experiences. The 'preaching isn't quite up to snuff' comment shows a certain, to put it kindly, lack of knowledge. To some folks, it's OUR preaching that isn't 'up to snuff'. The fact that our teaching may be on a much higher plane may be generally (but not universally) true, but the delivery itself will leave a lot to be desired to folks from other cultural backgrounds. 

In addition, for southern Blacks of my generation or older, there is a history of not being able to use water fountains, or restrooms, or restaurants, or doctor's waiting rooms; being physically barred from white churches. And there is always the question as to whether the whites on the pew even want to be sitting next to them. Then add on the cultural differences in worship style, and you can't understand why there might be a level of discomfort? 

There is a difference with younger folks, who grew up going to school with (but perhaps sitting at different tables in the lunchroom from) whites. But there are still cultural differences.


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## SemperEruditio

Sarah,
While visiting a new church have you had a child come up to you and swipe your arm with their finger and wonder out loud why the "dirt" didn't come off?

Have you had someone you've never met at a church your visiting bring you some ice for your lips because they assumed your lips were swollen and _"the ice helps with the swelling"_?


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## OPC'n

Edward said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? If a person is looking for a reformed church which worships in the RPW and preaches the truth, why would anyone feel uncomfortable? If I went to a Pentecostal church black or white I would feel highly uncomfortable, but that would be because they are not worshipping according to the RPW and most likely their preaching isn't quite up to snuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you need some cross-cultural experiences. The 'preaching isn't quite up to snuff' comment shows a certain, to put it kindly, lack of knowledge. To some folks, it's OUR preaching that isn't 'up to snuff'. The fact that our teaching may be on a much higher plane may be generally (but not universally) true, but the delivery itself will leave a lot to be desired to folks from other cultural backgrounds.
> 
> In addition, for southern Blacks of my generation or older, there is a history of not being able to use water fountains, or restrooms, or restaurants, or doctor's waiting rooms; being physically barred from white churches. And there is always the question as to whether the whites on the pew even want to be sitting next to them. Then add on the cultural differences in worship style, and you can't understand why there might be a level of discomfort?
> 
> There is a difference with younger folks, who grew up going to school with (but perhaps sitting at different tables in the lunchroom from) whites. But there are still cultural differences.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but the Pentecostal churches that I attended growing up and even after I was in my twenties didn't know much truth and the man-made elements they put into their churches (speaking in tongues) could curl anyones arm hairs. As for the rest of your comment, I believe that thinking comes from outside of the church. No God-fearing church would discriminate against any race and so if a person goes to a church which snubs them, then they need to find a church which is God-fearing (reformed church which practices the RPW and preaches the Word of God in truth and lives it out) LIKE MY CHURCH! ANY CHURCH WHICH DISCRIMINATES AGAINST OTHER RACES IS NOT A CHURCH. We shouldn't be praying for black preachers to rise up just so that they can have an all black congregation and we shouldn't be praying for white preachers to rise up just so that they can have all white congregations and each of those churches have their own culture....that is racism! However, since I don't seem to be getting my point across I'll stop.


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## Hamalas

I find some of these comments about "Well you just need to get out more and experience multiracial interactions" presumptive and somewhat degrading. Just because we may not agree with everything you're saying about this issue doesn't mean we are ignorant, sheltered, suburbanites. Please brothers (and sisters) I am not trying to offend! I just want to make sure that we are all showing each other love, grace, and respect in this somewhat sticky topic. I think all of us can grow in our understanding. Some of the problems we are facing with this issue comes from white prejudice, and some of it stems from black bias. But I think the single biggest reason is human ignorance! If we can correct some misconceptions and fill some gaps in our brothers knowledge on this issue then praise be to God! But let's try to do it with tremendous humility and patience.


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## OPC'n

SemperEruditio said:


> Sarah,
> While visiting a new church have you had a child come up to you and swipe your arm with their finger and wonder out loud why the "dirt" didn't come off?
> 
> Have you had someone you've never met at a church your visiting bring you some ice for your lips because they assumed your lips were swollen and _"the ice helps with the swelling"_?



SemperEruditio, did these people do this (the ice thing....the child thing is just children being children...I've seen children do much worse things to other people of their own skin color) out of ignorance or out of meanness? If out of ignorance, then educate them. A black friend of mine thought she was giving a compliment out to overweight people when she told them how heavy they were and we just had to tell her that it wasn't a compliment and she stopped. They might have been seriously concerned for you which would show you their love for the brethren. It's hard to believe this is out of ignorance, however. So my advice is to not think that white reformed churches equal racism. Look for a God-fearing church who love God and His people. Who lay down their lives for each other. You would never find racism in my church. I think you might be going to churches that are spiritually dead and filled with dead man's bones! Blessing to you and your search and other people's search for a biblically based church.


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## Simply_Nikki

I usually don't like responding to threads that deal with race, because sometimes I feel that it is futile and that no one will even try to understand different perspectives... nevertheless I'll attempt to address one thing in particular, since this is the type of thing I am interested in studying.

I of course do not speak for all black people (I prefer the term black rather than African-American), however in my humble opinion, I think that whenever we want to discuss racial issues, we must be candid yet sensitive and open to people's experiences and emotions. 

Sara, no Christian should have a problem with "race", it should of course play no part in Christian unity, but race does exist. It is not necessarily evil or sinful to acknowledge that God created people of all ethnicities and colors who developed distinctive cultural differences. The evil with race or "the world's view of race" is that historically, it has been socially constructed to assign value to certain cultures or ethnicities at the expense of oppressing or devaluing others. You say you fear that the church is taking on this worldly view of race.. in my opinion, the church took this worldly view hundreds of years ago when it, as one example, opposed interracial marriages for fear of preservation and dilution.. not of the black race.. but of the white race, a fear perpetrated by eugenic scientists and social darwinists. As a backlash, sinful though it may be, there were black Christians who also did not think it fit to marry whites because of pride, fear, and sepratist sentiments. To this day we see some hesitation to interracial marriages even within the "Reformed" church (take a look at this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/dating-preference-sin-26340/ ). Of course there are for various reasons for it, but I think had the church took a firm stance against the fallacious claims of world in this area, we probably would not have made such a big deal over it.

This is just one example, but the point is, in worship, we have elevated one style and form of worship (tunes from the 17th and 18th century European composers) over that of other cultural forms of worship. We say that this style we typically see in mostly white reformed churches are the "standard" and is what the RPW should sound like and anything else is "different" and not as pleasing to God, but what many people fail to realize is that this "traditional" style of worship also comes from a cultural perspective, that of Europeanism. Now some may say that maybe the Europeans just had it right, and that they did it the best; therefore we should emulate them in their style and culture. Fair enough, that is one's opinion. I don't know what I could say to one who believes that. But I do wonder where they'd place the style of worship of the Hebrews. 

Anywho...the effects of hundreds of years of blatant sin in the area of race, propagated by Christians and non-Christians alike, has taken its tole on many people of color. I believe we are finally beginning to heal and overcome it, and we will continue to do so, as long as we are willing to continue to talk about it and not sweep it under the rug as a dead and gone issue, it still haunts us and the effects of it still present itself in some circumstances. 

I feel for the lady who seeks a culturally diverse reformed church, I truly understand the desire to seek that out. If people from every tribe, nation and tongue will be in heaven worshipping God, why do we not see reflections of that vision in many of our church congregations? There is a saying that the most segregated time in America is Sunday mornings, I don't know about you, but this observation brings me to shame and disappointment. 

That is all I will say for this thread. I hope what I've said will be received graciously.


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## Hamalas

Thank you for your post Nikki. However, my original question still stands: Are there specific things we are doing that are alienating our black brothers needlessly? I really do want to know!


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## OPC'n

Nikki, you said,


> This is just one example, but the point is, in worship, we have elevated one style and form of worship (tunes from the 17th and 18th century european composers) over that of other cultural forms of worship. We say that this style we typically see in mostly white reformed churches are the "standard" and is what the RPW should sound like and anything else is "different" and not as pleasing to God,



This just isn't true in my church (OPC which is very reformed). Again, my pastor has told us time and again that things that have nothing to do with RPW would change if we started getting other nationalities in our church who desired a change. We would incorporate changes that reflect the differences within God's people. It's quite simple really...if you love God and His people racism won't exist. I refuse to believe that my church is the only reformed church which takes on this view. I do believe there are racist churches out there but they are not a church plain and simple. I just don't want to see us dividing ourselves up even more by wanting black preachers to form black only churches or wanting more white preachers to form white only congregations doing this only separates His people and I don't think that's what He would want....maybe that's not what the OP is saying and I have misread.


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## SemperEruditio

Sarah,
You presume too much about me. My signature should tell you that I am in a church and not searching. You also jumped way over to the conclusion that I believe white reformed churches equal racism...? I do not believe such a thing. 

I am intrigued at how you claim I missed an opportunity to teach. I would be interested to know what exactly am I to teach someone who has never met me and assumes my lips are swollen "beyond normal"? I just smiled and said thank you. However I guess I should have explained that there are people with lips which are larger than others and I just happen to be one of those...?

_Hi...My name is Frank...and "no" my lips are not swollen this is what is considered normal for an Afro-Cuban..."yes" this is my skin color and it is not dirt..."no" you did not hear me speak in some 'spiritual' tongue but that was in fact Spanish..._

-----Added 5/30/2009 at 11:51:30 EST-----



TranZ4MR said:


> I just don't want to see us dividing ourselves up even more by wanting black preachers to form black only churches or wanting more white preachers to form white only congregations doing this only separates His people and I don't think that's what He would want....maybe that's not what the OP is saying and I have misread.



It is clear you have misread.



> *Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?*


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## OPC'n

SemperEruditio said:


> Sarah,
> You presume too much about me. My signature should tell you that I am in a church and not searching. You also jumped way over to the conclusion that I believe white reformed churches equal racism...? I do not believe such a thing.
> 
> I am intrigued at how you claim I missed an opportunity to teach. I would be interested to know what exactly am I to teach someone who has never met me and assumes my lips are swollen "beyond normal"? I just smiled and said thank you. However I guess I should have explained that there are people with lips which are larger than others and I just happen to be one of those...?
> 
> _Hi...My name is Frank...and "no" my lips are not swollen this is what is considered normal for an Afro-Cuban..."yes" this is my skin color and it is not dirt..."no" you did not hear me speak in some 'spiritual' tongue but that was in fact Spanish..._



I didn't mean to offend you by stating blessings on your search. I got caught up in writing and forgot that you were trying to find a church for someone else. I truly am sorry. With that said, you shouldn't feel embarrassed about educating ignorant people. You happen to know more than they do and educating them will help them to understand you better. My friend who kept telling some of my other friends how fat they were was ignorant of our culture. We were able to educate her on our culture and she stopped telling them how fat they were. We knew she wasn't trying to be mean and yes it was slightly uncomfortable telling her that she was in the wrong to say such things, but we all became fast friends in the end. Just because you know more about your culture and your race than the people you run into, shouldn't make you feel uncomfortable especially if they are of God's family. I would feel very stupid if I thought something of you which wasn't true and you didn't love me enough to correct me. There's nothing wrong with being up front with people and correcting their misunderstandings. I'm not trying to be mean to you really I'm not. People have misunderstood me and what I really am many times. Educating them on my background and what I really am like has always produced some of my very best friends. None of us (black, white, Mexican, Asian etc) knows everything about every race and sometimes we respond inappropriately to the other race. We should determine if it's done out of ignorance or out of malice. If done out of ignorance, then educate them. If done out of malice, then call then on the carpet and tell them how to act in a more biblical manner. Really, this is the only way to root out those big problems that races have against each other. Again, blessing and peace and yes I will pray that more reformed black and white and all other nationalities of preachers rise up to teach all of us!


----------



## Simply_Nikki

TranZ4MR said:


> Nikki, you said,
> 
> 
> 
> This is just one example, but the point is, in worship, we have elevated one style and form of worship (tunes from the 17th and 18th century european composers) over that of other cultural forms of worship. We say that this style we typically see in mostly white reformed churches are the "standard" and is what the RPW should sound like and anything else is "different" and not as pleasing to God,
> 
> 
> 
> This just isn't true in my church (OPC which is very reformed). Again, my pastor has told us time and again that things that have nothing to do with RPW would change if we started getting other nationalities in our church who desired a change. We would incorporate changes that reflect the differences within God's people. It's quite simple really...if you love God and His people racism won't exist. I refuse to believe that my church is the only reformed church which takes on this view. I do believe there are racist churches out there but they are not a church plain and simple. I just don't want to see us dividing ourselves up even more by wanting black preachers to form black only churches or wanting more white preachers to form white only congregations doing this only separates His people and I don't think that's what He would want....maybe that's not what the OP is saying and I have misread.
Click to expand...


Sara, what I was saying was a general assessment, of course not all specific churches believe this, and it pleases me that your church does not. I also don't think people intentionally say "I'm going to start an all black church" or "I'm going to start an all white church", but nevertheless we still see all black churches and all white churches, the question is why? Of course we can (and should) all point to sin as the ultimate answer and that would be correct, but when we look at immediate reasons, why don't see wee more ethnicly homogeneous congregations? Well we can look at a few things, like the de facto segregated residential patterns and where the church is placed or we can look at what areas of neighborhoods that church reaches out to, or the dominant cultural make-up of that church. 

I know i said i wouldn't responda anymore on the thread (haha ) , but let me try to explain it a little better with an anecdote. I went to an all white bible study group at DePaul that was sponsored by the local presbyterian church as an outreach ministry to college campuses. I loved those people, and I'm sure they loved me, but there were times where culture and race became apparently relevant. For example, I desired to participate in the worship music, the problem was I had never heard a hymn or any of the white contemporary christian artists that we sang. I was unfamiliar with this style, but everyone else knew all the songs and would ask me questions like.. "you never heard of this song? You never sang this hymn? You never listened to this band? " and i'd say.. no i grew up listening to black contemporary christian artists  to which of course they never heard before. 

I think one of the beneficial things about the hymns and psalms is that they are an equalizing medium and in a way "standardizes" and unifies worship experiences. However, I think perhaps we can do things like.. have variations on certain hymns or different melodies for psalms that sound more like what other cultures may be familiar with. I'm not saying bring out the Jimbe drums and the Sitar.. (though that could be cool lol) but I think things like that would aide in making other cultures feel not just unaliented but also appreciated for their creativity and style in worshipping God. (I think this also answers brother Hamalas's question).

I think it is a perfectly acceptable desire to want to see see reflections of heaven in all its diversity embodied in our praise and worship in our local church congregations. I desire this greatly, and hope everyone here desires to see that as well .


----------



## OPC'n

Nikki,
I'm right there with you on the hymn thing! . I grew up in a Pentecostal church so I didn't know any hymns! I'm slowly learning them, but I am surprised that I can sing along with the ones I don't know! I'm a person who loves music and all kinds of music even reformed rap! But I have to admit that I do appreciate the simple accompaniment of the piano. Of course, that could change in time and I hope I'm very gracious in enjoying whatever change comes. I do really like all the instruments that Sproul has in his services, however.


----------



## Theognome

SemperEruditio said:


> Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
> Colossians 3:11



My opinion- if this passage were really being taken seriously by ALL parties, the rest of the post wouldn't have been written.

Theognome


----------



## LadyFlynt

Sarah, I wasn't correcting your spelling, dear  I was just emphasizing the word.

There is a difference between a minority in a church being corrected by the majority (not speaking racially here, but culturally) vs a minority in a church correcting the majority. He would have created great embarrassment for the person offering him water and since there weren't 20 of him for her to do that to, it was best to let it go. In your friend's case, it was something she was doing to all those around her.

:sigh:

Sarah, do you not realise that some view CERTAIN styles of worship, including the music choices, to be part of the RPW? We had this issue within the EP churches. Some were seen as "not fully or properly" singing the Psalms because of the tune selection! *Reformed Denomination A has several familiar tunes used. *Reformed Denomination B has tunes that are older and more attuned to 17th and 18th century *White European Country (which, at more than a few parts, is difficult to master). It's like (not is, just like) saying that we SHOULD be using shaped notes instead of round. By this standard, some in *B felt/acted as though the *A was not "holding true" to EP and the RPW. (people on this board can't even agree with what is RPW and what isn't! I've been around enough years to know!)

(*names of denominations withheld to keep me out of trouble, it doesn't matter, and for those that it matters, then to protect their identity  )



There are just as many white people, that if the style were to change to outside their cultural norms/expections, would leave and go elsewhere. You're church is also just ONE church. Your ideals and intentions are good! But we are talking about how to deal with the reality of a situation, what the causes are, and how to overcome the hurdles. You can't just tell everyone to "get over themselves" (and I know you didn't say that like that...but in so many words, that is what it boils down to  ).

Also, some people can handle the loneliness of being in a church to worship and ignored the rest of the time...no fellowship, no understanding, etc. Not many people can. Just as much as church isn't supposed to be about "finding friends and cliques", it IS about fellowship. And you are suggesting they continue attending for worship, but lack of fellowship doesn't matter? (I don't think you are, but that is the conclusion of one of your posts...that it shouldn't keep them from attending)


----------



## Edward

Simply_Nikki said:


> nevertheless I'll attempt to address one thing in particular, since this is the type of thing I am interested in studying.



Thank you for so eloquently stating that which I was being unsuccessful in communicating in my posts on this thread. 

And for all the others on this thread. I apologize for my tone in this discussion. I was getting quite frustrated in my inability to communicate.


----------



## OPC'n

But you did correct my spelling and for that I'm glad...I learned something. There's nothing wrong with learning... I can't know how to spell every word.

As far as music styles being apart of the RPW I would have to disagree with them, and I would have to say that this isn't really a race thing. Even I wouldn't want to be in a EP church if I could choose my church instead. *However*, if the EP was the only one around then I would go to it as long as they really did uphold the RPW and preached the truth. I wouldn't sacrifice those two things and go to a church who did not uphold the RPW and biblical teaching just so that I could hear hymns/songs with instruments. This will probably knock your socks off, but if the only reformed church within 100 miles around me made women cover....I would go to it than go to one which didn't uphold the RPW and didn't have biblical teachings!  I'll let you savor that one!  I never said that fellowship wasn't important. I said that it was less important than having a church which follows the RPW and correct teachings. My friend who is in her twenties refuses to go to my church because there are not very many people of that age, and instead chooses to go to a church which doesn't follow the RPW and has less than good teachings. There are other young families who are in their 30's that she could easily be friends with and have fellowship with. There are not any who are of my decade of birth in my church but I still am able to fellowship with those who are younger and older than me. This seems like an excuse to me, really. If someone is feeling ignored (which *doesn't* happen in my church cuz they hound you to come to their house for dinner ) and really are being ignored, then I have to again wonder if they are going to a church filled with God's people. God's people reach out to each other and lay their lives down for each other they don't ignore each other.


----------



## he beholds

TranZ4MR said:


> I'm not sure who wrote which hymn much less the race, but if they proclaim the Word of God it doesn't matter to me which race wrote them. Does it matter to you? Isn't God suppose to be getting all the glory anyway and not man?



But have you noticed that apparently the only hymns that proclaim the Word were written by white people with soft, slow melodies? 

That is probably not the case, but in my church it is! 





TranZ4MR said:


> Nikki,
> I'm right there with you on the hymn thing! . I grew up in a Pentecostal church so I didn't know any hymns! I'm slowly learning them, but I am surprised that I can sing along with the ones I don't know! I'm a person who loves music and all kinds of music even reformed rap! *But I have to admit that I do appreciate the simple accompaniment of the piano.* Of course, that could change in time and I hope I'm very gracious in enjoying whatever change comes. I do really like all the instruments that Sproul has in his services, however.



There is so much in this thread. 

In our church, which is _in a city_, there would be the threesies-foursies. (Families, not individuals.) I didn't know what to think of that, or if I was allowed to think about that, until during Sunday School a month or so ago when we were discussing worship and the RPW, and one of the black men mentioned how he loves our church but knows that the worship style is not his preference and wonders why we do only sing old hymns in old styles. I don't want to slander him or put words into his mouth, but I think he may have used the word boring. And I don't think that would be a sin to complain in that way. He definitely was saying that the style of music he enjoys is absent from our church.

We could claim RPW, which thankfully my church did not. The elder teaching the lesson admitted that though the RPW allows for other songs and arrangements, we don't have the talent or the willing-talent to go beyond the piano-led European hymns. (Not a debate about RPW--obviously the PCA believes that accompanied hymns are RPW, and so, our church cannot confine that to old white guys, specific rhythms and the piano.)

Now I personally would dislike a more exciting worship service, because I personally am into the most minimal, chill, folk-rock type music. I do not know what rhythm is, nor do I have any interest in finding out. But I know this is my preference. I really do LOVE singing a theologically strong hymn accompanied by an acoustic guitar (which we don't do because we have no guitarist). And I would be uncomfortable singing the same hymn if it was upbeat. I just don't like upbeat music. So if I went to worship in a black church or a multi-ethnic one, I would probably be wishing for the music of the old frozen chosen. And of course I wouldn't leave the service or anything, but I could see wanting to find a church that had chiller music. 

In fact, we visited one church before landing at our church that did have more instrumentation and we did not return!! We didn't try to make an argument from Scripture against drums (they weren't even loud!) but it just did not feel like home to us. If that were the only PCA church, or we felt that the preaching was the best, we would have gone and worshiped there again. But in our area, we have many PCA churches and sought one out that we liked both preaching and worship style. I think anyone would do this, with choices available...maybe based on something else, like having similar peers, but we do want to feel comfortable in our church. 

I personally _can_ see why this article/prayer request was written and I thank you for posting it!


----------



## raekwon

To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.

Ain't nothin' wrong with that.


----------



## ChristianTrader

raekwon said:


> To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.
> 
> Ain't nothin' wrong with that.



Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?

CT


----------



## OPC'n

ChristianTrader said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.
> 
> Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


That's a good question for every race to answer for themselves.


----------



## ChristianTrader

Does music/worship styles that does not cater to ones "sensibilities" imply a lack of caring about other ethnic groups?

Are people willing to stay in their "health and wealth", as well as other absurd theological viewpoints, teaching churches, because the Reformed churches do not have music to dance to or not enough non-white folks? If the answer is no, then I do not see the point of the thread or the letter. If the answer is yes, then there are way deeper issues than finding a black pastor.

CT


----------



## he beholds

ChristianTrader said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.
> 
> Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


EP could still adopt more diverse tunes, since the tunes used are not inspired. 

I wouldn't say that EP is any different from our hymn singers in this respect. Both groups have dead white guy music. 
I appreciate that groups like RUF put new (cool) tunes to the solid Reformed hymns. I appreciate that my culture and sensibilities are now being included in the worship service.


----------



## Knoxienne

he beholds said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.
> 
> Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?
> 
> CT
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EP could still adopt more diverse tunes, since the tunes used are not inspired.
> 
> I wouldn't say that EP is any different from our hymn singers in this respect. Both groups have dead white guy music.
> I appreciate that groups like RUF put new (cool) tunes to the solid Reformed hymns. I appreciate that my culture and sensibilities are now being included in the worship service.
Click to expand...


A word of caution, Sister Jessi. Many of those men who you referred to as "dead white guys" are very much alive in heaven because of the promise of the resurrection. And so is their music. We still have a duty to preserve it.


----------



## raekwon

Knoxienne said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?
> 
> CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EP could still adopt more diverse tunes, since the tunes used are not inspired.
> 
> I wouldn't say that EP is any different from our hymn singers in this respect. Both groups have dead white guy music.
> I appreciate that groups like RUF put new (cool) tunes to the solid Reformed hymns. I appreciate that my culture and sensibilities are now being included in the worship service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A word of caution, Sister Jessi. Many of those men who you referred to as "dead white guys" are very much alive in heaven because of the promise of the resurrection. And so is their music. *We still have a duty to preserve it.*
Click to expand...


Everything here is true except for the bolded sentence. It's certainly a good thing to preserve older tunes, but I'd have a hard time believing we've failed in some sort of "duty" if they fall out of use. It happens. It's okay.

Anyway, Jessi's point is a good one -- EP doesn't have to be culturally bound. New tunes can be written. Old tunes can be adapted.

(I'm amazed that this thread somehow turned into yet another EP discussion, by the way.)


----------



## Knoxienne

raekwon said:


> I'm amazed that this thread somehow turned into yet another EP discussion, by the way.



Yeah, interesting how that works.


----------



## raekwon

ChristianTrader said:


> Does music/worship styles that does not cater to ones "sensibilities" imply a lack of caring about other ethnic groups?
> 
> Are people willing to stay in their "health and wealth", as well as other absurd theological viewpoints, teaching churches, because the Reformed churches do not have music to dance to or not enough non-white folks? If the answer is no, then I do not see the point of the thread or the letter. If the answer is yes, then there are way deeper issues than finding a black pastor.
> 
> CT



I don't know if this is necessarily a matter of "catering" to our sensibilities. A particular people in a particular culture will produce a particular style of music. It doesn't have to be imposed on them.


----------



## Hamalas

*finds a comfy couch and settles in for the long haul *


----------



## Knoxienne

Hamalas said:


> *finds a comfy couch and settles in for the long haul *


----------



## BJClark

SemperEruditio;



> Are any of the hymns composed by African-Americans? What era are the hymns from and are they limited to that time period alone?



In many reformed churches they don't sing hymns at all..they sing only the Psalms..


----------



## raekwon

hamalas said:


> *finds a comfy couch and settles in for the long haul *



get up and get to church! ;-)


----------



## BJClark

LadyFlynt;



> However, when the majority of the church seems to be one, do you really want to stick around with people that you sit next to on Sunday, but who otherwise have nothing to do with you/don't seem to understand where you are coming from?



Who says they don't want anything to do with them? or is that someone making an assumption? 

What is there to understand, that is different? They came from the exact same sinful world I do..where people treat others with disrespect, because of their own sinful heart.



> What kind of looks would a black man get if he said, "amen!" to something a pastor said.



Why should he get any kind of look at all? If he gets 'a look' then it's not him with the problem, it's the person 'giving a look' who might have need to check his own heart, as to why the other man might give a hearty agreement "AMEN" to what the Pastor is preaching.

I guess I've been in many "white" Churches where men do the same thing..that it does not phase me..even some within my current church do the same..



> What SHOULD be and what IS are two different things, unfortunately. And that is the point.



I agree, but that is not because of the color of a man's skin, but more the sin in a man's heart is it not??? And shouldn't that be what is addressed?


----------



## LadyFlynt

ChristianTrader said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Rev. Plummer's prayer request seems to boil down to *mission* and *incarnation*. In the same way that *God became man* to minister to man. Not _only_ did he become man, but he became man in a _particular_ place and ministered to a _particular_ people. He took on their culture and their customs. In the same way, the PCA is seeking _black_ pastors and church planters to minister in _black_ communities. Is this to say that white (or for that matter, Asian, or Native American, or Latino) pastors are unable to minister effectively in those communities? Of course not! But still, this seems (to me) to be a case of wanting to meet people where they are and incarnate the Gospel there, just as Jesus did for first-century Israel.
> 
> Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to say that those who are EP are not willing to incarnate the gospel to the surrounding community?
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


When they insist that only one particular culture's tunes are acceptable, yes.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 10:49:19 EST-----

Bobbie, yes, it's because of man's sin and sometimes that sin is not recognised for what it is. The man is making presumptions, because he is faced with another cultural issue and he is only viewing it from HIS cultural expectations. So YES, it DOES have to do with Culture/Ethnicity.


----------



## BJClark

Edward;



> In addition, for southern Blacks of my generation or older, there is a history of not being able to use water fountains, or restrooms, or restaurants, or doctor's waiting rooms; being physically barred from white churches.



Again, that is a heart issue..is it not??

Aren't you imposing your thoughts or feelings on to someone else, assuming what they might be thinking? 

That would be like me saying..



> And there is always the question as to whether the Blacks on the pew even want to be sitting next to them.



It assumes much but in practicality it means nothing..because you are placing your own assumptions on the other person..either way, it's a heart issue..and not necessarily the person sitting in the pew beside you..because in reality they may not have a problem sitting next to you, some might, I agree, but we can not make assumptions, lest it's our own 'assumptions' and 'feelings' that are controlling us..and that should not be..

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 11:04:16 EST-----

LadyFlynt;



> Bobbie, yes, it's because of man's sin and sometimes that sin is not recognised for what it is. The man is making presumptions, because he is faced with another cultural issue and he is only viewing it from HIS cultural expectations. So YES, it DOES have to do with Culture/Ethnicity.



So we should go to God's house with OUR Cultural expectations??

And why from a Christian isn't that sin recognized for what it is??? SIN???


----------



## Edward

BJClark said:


> [Aren't you imposing your thoughts or feelings on to someone else, assuming what they might be thinking?



I assumed that the Blacks with whom I've gotten close enough to have honest discussions about race have been honest with me. Any assumption entails some risk. And there are exceptions to every rule - as I noted above, age will have an impact. And certainly the young black family that I sat next to this morning and who came out and got in a nice new Mercedes may look at things from a slightly different angle than a poor person from the 'hood. 

But to say that Christians of both races don't harbor some residual views indicates that someone may need to develop a better understanding of sanctification as a presently incomplete process. 



> That would be like me saying..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there is always the question as to whether the Blac
> 
> ks on the pew even want to be sitting next to them.
Click to expand...

 That's a possibility that a white person ought to consider when worshipping in a Black church. There are some folks who are going to wonder what your agenda is. 



> It assumes much but in practicality it means nothing..because you are placing your own assumptions on the other person..either way, it's a heart issue..and not necessarily the person sitting in the pew beside you..because in reality they may not have a problem sitting next to you, some might, I agree, but we can not make assumptions, lest it's our own 'assumptions' and 'feelings' that are controlling us..and that should not be..


 Saying that the attitudes are a result of 'sin' is accurate, but does nothing toward solving the problem. 

As the original post says, prayer is the first step, but it isn't the only thing that can be done.


----------



## SemperEruditio

Typical...

Why not focus on the steak instead of the sizzle?



SemperEruditio said:


> Wy Plummer stated:
> 
> _Presently I am aware of three cities that want to plant PCA churches with African American leadership. Some of our white church planters are looking for an African American partner and will not begin the work until they find such a person. There are three multi-ethnic churches with vacant pulpits looking for African American pastors. *The call for African American leadership far exceeds the supply.* Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?_


----------



## LadyFlynt

Bobbie, you aren't getting it.

They don't go with their cultural expectations, but rather feel that THEY & their CULTURE is being completely left out (and it is in MOST cases). It is a sin issue. It's not going away. The point is, we're trying to OVERCOME it...not tell people to just suck it up.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 02:08:21 EST-----



SemperEruditio said:


> Typical...
> 
> Why not focus on the steak instead of the sizzle?
> 
> 
> 
> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wy Plummer stated:
> 
> _Presently I am aware of three cities that want to plant PCA churches with African American leadership. Some of our white church planters are looking for an African American partner and will not begin the work until they find such a person. There are three multi-ethnic churches with vacant pulpits looking for African American pastors. *The call for African American leadership far exceeds the supply.* Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?_
Click to expand...


Yes! And we should be ENCOURAGING men from ALL ethnicities to come into these roles. This is why this NEEDS to be talked about. This is why it needs to be put into prayer.



I can see why many say, "you're white; you wouldn't understand"...conversations like this prove that there are people that spend more time being defensive than actually trying to understand.


----------



## he beholds

Knoxienne said:


> A word of caution, Sister Jessi. Many of those men who you referred to as "dead white guys" are very much alive in heaven because of the promise of the resurrection. And so is their music. We still have a duty to preserve it.



Well, I typically call all people who have left earth dead, even Christians. (Except for Christ who, though he did die, rose again and left earth alive.) I thought that was the normal term. I really have not met even Christians who stop referring to their dead as dead. Toni, I can see your point, but I had never thought that it was wrong to call these people dead before! I will think about this. So if your aunt who was a Christian died, do you only say, "she went to glory?" I admit, that is a great way of saying it, but I do usually say "she died." 


I am also happy to preserve their words, because I do love them. My point in calling them dead and white was to call attention to their time period and their own culture's influence upon the music they've written. I LOVE these old hymns. Singing them week after week is nearly my preference (again, for some hymns, I prefer a bit of an updated tune, but even still, I have no discomfort in singing them). 

I am simply saying that it is completely fathomable to me that people who like other types and styles of music would also like to praise God in that style. 

Our worship is not sanctified because of the melodies, but the truth and adherence to Scripture in the words--I think we tend to forget this. 

This morning in Sunday School, the elder who was teaching stated in passing something about the _form_ being for the benefit of the needs of the congregation, and not because to do otherwise would be sinning. I think he was talking about the way we take communion as opposed to other ways. Since we have many pews, it takes so many men to pass it out. But if we had less, we could do it another way. In this case, the two ways were equally acceptable, but the one way worked best for our particular congregation. So while most of the details of communion must adhere to Scripture's decrees, but some parts can be left to the needs of the saints in question. In my opinion, the _form_ of music could likewise be chosen specifically for the needs of the congregation, though the standards set for all must still be met.


----------



## Ravens

I think that some people in this thread who are trying to culturally educate us are actually using more than a few over-worked stereotypes themselves. One almost gets the impression that white and black musical tastes, and how these play out in churches, are like an everlasting episode of _Save the Last Dance_, with black church members breaking out into spontaneous, exaggerated movements, and little white stick people awkwardly clapping and trying to keep up with the cool cocoa vibe.

Perhaps there are actual racial and genetic differences when it comes to music, but I think that a good part of it, if not most, is cultural. A couple thousand years ago Europeans were throwing sacrificial victims into bogs, or getting trashed on alcohol, or eating fly agaric, or frothing at the mouth in berserkergang, and plunging themselves nude into the frontlines of battle. Sounds pretty "active" to me. You can find honky tonks all over West Virginia with dancing, yelling, and fighting on most given nights. You can Youtube the snake-handling church in Jolo, W.V., and see white people in church twirling around holding rattlesnakes, dancing, prancing, and looking like they are at a Grateful Dead show. So is being loud and "expressive" really just some intrinsic racial "bent"?

And if not, then the question isn't necessarily, "Is the 'black race' or 'blackness' or 'whatever' being underrepresented in certain churches?" It might very well be, "What type of culture or music is appropriate to church?" I drink beer (and love beer), listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd and Scandinavian metal, and love to yell till I'm hoarse at football games. When I go to Riverview P.C.A. and have structured, slightly restrained hymns, is my culture being "underrepresented"? Or are certain types of music more suitable to church? 

And actually, I don't have a problem with most "black music" that I've heard in church, I'm just making a point. I'm fine with churches being "as black as they wanna be", and I don't think clapping or swaying or whatever you want to do is necessarily less fit for church. But I think the debate is being framed disingenuously when you suggest that the current hymns are strictly racial, or rooted in some "white groove", when you could turn on an LSU football game [and watch the fans], or go to a Phish show and watch all the twirling, noodling white kids, or go to a Hank III concert, etc., and see all kinds of different "white vibes."

And honestly, I think it's a bit presumptuous for onesie-twosies of any color to walk into a church of a hundred or two hundred people and just ask that the music be changed to fit their tastes. I also get tired of the implicit statements that all of us palefaces just need to "get out more" and see the world. I've been the only (read: only, without even the pleasure of a "twosie" to my "onesie") white person in two separate black Pentecostal churches when I was first saved and open to anything (including things I shouldn't be [speaking theologically, not racially]). I certainly didn't expect them all to give into some corny stereotype and all sit up straight, talk about mowing their lawn and Ronald Reagan, and change their way of music just because I showed up at their church. 

I've had a black "prophetess" rub oil on my head singing "Hallelujah" over and over in some straight-out-of-the-plantation soulful stereotypical tone. I've had her ghetto'd out daughter walk in and refer to me as "White Boy Troy" and ask why I was there. Did I cry? Did I feel "underrepresented?" No, I gave precisely two you-know-whats about it. And this was back in 2000, when I didn't have near the jadedness and irritation and aggression relative to these issues as I do now.

And I don't share that to validate anything. I realize that will be played off as the typical, "Some of my best friends are black" statement. It's not. I don't talk to any of them anymore; and I'm thankful for that (due to the extreme Pentecostalism)! So that's how far away I am from having a Hallmark moment. But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.


----------



## raekwon

How the heck did this thread become about music?!


----------



## he beholds

raekwon said:


> How the heck did this thread become about music?!



I know--and I'm guilty of talking only about music. I almost ended my last post by saying that music isn't even the issue, and point out that despite that, it is something that we all quickly recognize as important enough for us to focus on on a thread about multi-cultural Christians!


----------



## Edward

raekwon said:


> How the heck did this thread become about music?!



Perhaps that is the 'safest' or 'most comfortable' place to hold the discussion. Anything else would require us to dig below the surface.


----------



## Ravens

If people wanted to talk about steak, then they shouldn't have participated in and promoted two pages of sizzle. It's been two pages of music already, so that's what I talked about. And the musical discussion, and how it plays out along racial lines, is replicated here every couple of years.

We can dig beneath the surface just fine. 

It's just when we do that, the threads tend to get closed. Probably rightfully so. But certainly don't think that there's any hesitation on my part.


----------



## rbcbob

I am an elder in a church with about 125 members and about 75 visitors. Not that it matters to the Lord, but a majority of the membership is white. We also have hispanic members, black members (one of whom is an elder), and in the past have had members and longstanding visitors from Argentina, Taiwan, Dominican Republic, England, Russia, and other places in God's earth.

I have worshiped in an all black congregation where my wife and I were the only whites in attendance and left blessed and thankful.

I shepherd saints who are single, divorced, recovering drug addicts, former homosexuals, convicted murderers, severely handicapped, ... you name it. None of these precious sheep would leave our church for one in which their particular sovereignly ordained particulars were in the majority even if was located on their street.

We have members who earn well over six-figures annually as well as several families living well below the poverty level.

There are PhD's, doctors, and engineers among us. There are the barely literate as well.

All of this is to say that what brought us together and what *keeps* us together is the bond we have in Christ.

As I understand it, this is the makeup of the redeemed throughout the earth.

Bob


----------



## ChristianTrader

raekwon said:


> How the heck did this thread become about music?!



Did you read the letter in the OP? A great deal of time was spent on music/worship styles. If the main thing is something else, then the letter should have reflected that.

CT

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 05:17:44 EST-----



SemperEruditio said:


> Typical...
> 
> Why not focus on the steak instead of the sizzle?
> 
> 
> 
> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wy Plummer stated:
> 
> _Presently I am aware of three cities that want to plant PCA churches with African American leadership. Some of our white church planters are looking for an African American partner and will not begin the work until they find such a person. There are three multi-ethnic churches with vacant pulpits looking for African American pastors. *The call for African American leadership far exceeds the supply.* Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?_
Click to expand...


One question is if one does not lack a supply of leaders (meaning conservative seminary trained, Godly and faithful men) then why does one have a problem of lack of African American leaders have any relevance? 

Is somebody racist? If the answer is no, then one needs to claim that there is something conservative Godly black leadership can provide that just cannot be provided by conservative Godly white leadership. If in fact this is the case, then why complain about how white led churches are operating. There are certain things that they just cannot get done.

Is it somehow related to the need to have a black President?

CT


----------



## Edward

ChristianTrader said:


> Is somebody racist?


Probably, some, and others are just ignorant. One is sin and one isn't, but both contribute to the problem.



> If the answer is no, then one needs to claim that there is something conservative Godly black leadership can provide that just cannot be provided by conservative Godly white leadership.



Well, the answer in part is yes. But apart from that, I'll assert the claim that there IS something that Godly Black leadership can do that Godly white leadership can't. 

Indeed, the same realization has fueled change on the mission field. Have you not noticed the change to try to raise up indigenous leadership in the mission field, rather than relying solely on white western missionaries to lead?


----------



## ChristianTrader

Edward said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is somebody racist?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, some, and others are just ignorant. One is sin and one isn't, but both contribute to the problem.
Click to expand...


Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles. 



> If the answer is no, then one needs to claim that there is something conservative Godly black leadership can provide that just cannot be provided by conservative Godly white leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the answer in part is yes. But apart from that, I'll assert the claim that there IS something that Godly Black leadership can do that Godly white leadership can't.
Click to expand...


Like what? I would say that there is nothing about skin color that makes one better able to minister to a certain flock. Now lack of understanding of the issues that face a certain flock or lack of knowing how to lead them to a gospel solution can be big issues. For example, some areas may struggle with male responsibility, some with homosexuality, some with the keeping up with the Joneses. Different flocks have different gods that they struggle with containing. But those are not racial problems, but instead understanding and knowledge problems.




> Indeed, the same realization has fueled change on the mission field. Have you not noticed the change to try to raise up indigenous leadership in the mission field, rather than relying solely on white western missionaries to lead?



Pastors or missionaries should be naturally raising up leadership in their flock. If one is not, then I would start to question whether the full counsel of God is being preached or taught.

To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.

CT


----------



## Edward

ChristianTrader said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is somebody racist?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, some, and others are just ignorant. One is sin and one isn't, but both contribute to the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles.
Click to expand...

 I don't disagree with that.


> Well, the answer in part is yes. But apart from that, I'll assert the claim that there IS something that Godly Black leadership can do that Godly white leadership can't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like what? I would say that there is nothing about skin color that makes one better able to minister to a certain flock. Now lack of understanding of the issues that face a certain flock or lack of knowing how to lead them to a gospel solution can be big issues. For example, some areas may struggle with male responsibility, some with homosexuality, some with the keeping up with the Joneses. Different flocks have different gods that they struggle with containing. But those are not racial problems, but instead understanding and knowledge problems.
Click to expand...

If you think color of skin doesn't still matter (both ways) these days, then you have had the benefit of living in a nice, protective, bubble. 


> Indeed, the same realization has fueled change on the mission field. Have you not noticed the change to try to raise up indigenous leadership in the mission field, rather than relying solely on white western missionaries to lead?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.
Click to expand...

You can see it in international mission fields, but you can't see it cross culturally in the US?


----------



## Knoxienne

JDWiseman said:


> But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.



Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same. 

I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity (make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him). I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.


----------



## ChristianTrader

Edward said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, some, and others are just ignorant. One is sin and one isn't, but both contribute to the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't disagree with that.
Click to expand...


Okay so we have some sort of common ground.



> If you think color of skin doesn't still matter (both ways) these days, then you have had the benefit of living in a nice, protective, bubble.



Actually you did not even attempt to address my objection. My objection is that some things blamed on race are actually just knowledge and understanding. It is not as if there is something inherent to the race. 

Not to be mean but it seems like the same sort of reasoning used by Obama to put forth various racial or gender people to the Supreme Court. There is nothing inherent to women/men/black/white/latino etc. that make them able to rule on various cases better. Either one knows the facts of the case and how the law applies to this or one does not.



> To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.
> 
> 
> 
> You can see it in international mission fields, but you can't see it cross culturally in the US?
Click to expand...


Um, you do not see the difference in situations? The problem is not raising up people from our congregations to receive calls to the ministry or related functions. From what I understand our seminaries seem to be quite full and producing a good number of ministerial candidates. The issue as far as black ministers is the Ones and twosies problem. Unless you think it is the responsibility of every black male in the PCA to go to seminary and become pastors, there are going to be few actual and potential black ministers in the PCA.

The only reason this would be a problem is if the people being produced are being trained to minister only to the standard middle class white congregation. But if that is the case, then sending more black males to seminary is just going to add to the number of people with the ability to minister to the standard middle class white congregation.

CT


----------



## ChristianTrader

I am not saying that there is a problem with Reformed Seminaries, I am just giving people rational potential targets to place blame on.


----------



## LadyFlynt

raekwon said:


> How the heck did this thread become about music?!



I think because it was being used as an example and it just slid right into a whole different topic. *People focused on the example, not the point.*

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 09:37:10 EST-----



Knoxienne said:


> JDWiseman said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.
> 
> I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity *(make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him)*. I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.
Click to expand...


This is where the misunderstanding is and the defensiveness is. 

There is no "make whitey feel guilty"...it is "whitey" that is questioning "why is there a need for more black ministers, are we 'good enough' " as though others are saying they aren't. No one is saying that. 

*They are merely looking at ways to reach out to various communities.*

*ONE* of those ways is to look for ministers from that same cultural understanding and background to work directly with these people. There is a reason for it. It's not because "whitey is the bane of all their troubles"...it's because they need someone that UNDERSTANDS the issues in THAT community. A church isn't JUST meeting spiritual needs...many times it's also meeting social, physical, and relational needs as well.

So please, please, please stop being defensive about it. Please TRY to understand that there are culturally relevant ISSUES that not everyone is capable of helping their flock deal with.


BTW, I did give our pastor a copy of this letter and a link to these threads. This is a subject he and my husband both have a lot of heart in.


----------



## raekwon

I admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread, but I'm not seeing any of this supposed guilt-baiting.

Unless I'm the one doing it, of course. lol


----------



## he beholds

raekwon said:


> I admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread, but I'm not seeing any of this supposed guilt-baiting.
> 
> Unless I'm the one doing it, of course. lol



That's because there hasn't been any.


----------



## Edward

ChristianTrader said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay so we have some sort of common ground.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you did not even attempt to address my objection. My objection is that some things blamed on race are actually just knowledge and understanding. It is not as if there is something inherent to the race.
> 
> Not to be mean but it seems like the same sort of reasoning used by Obama to put forth various racial or gender people to the Supreme Court. There is nothing inherent to women/men/black/white/latino etc. that make them able to rule on various cases better. Either one knows the facts of the case and how the law applies to this or one does not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can see it in international mission fields, but you can't see it cross culturally in the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Um, you do not see the difference in situations? The problem is not raising up people from our congregations to receive calls to the ministry or related functions. From what I understand our seminaries seem to be quite full and producing a good number of ministerial candidates. The issue as far as black ministers is the Ones and twosies problem. Unless you think it is the responsibility of every black male in the PCA to go to seminary and become pastors, there are going to be few actual and potential black ministers in the PCA.
> 
> The only reason this would be a problem is if the people being produced are being trained to minister only to the standard middle class white congregation. But if that is the case, then sending more black males to seminary is just going to add to the number of people with the ability to minister to the standard middle class white congregation.
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


I think it's best that I leave this thread. 

While I generally have outstanding communications skills, I have been totally unable to communicate on this thread. Since that seems unlikely to change, I'll bow out.


----------



## SemperEruditio

I disagree Edward, I think you are doing fine.


----------



## SemperEruditio

I attend a multi-ethnic church plant. Our church was formed from two churches and the African American was called to be the senior pastor. Our worship style is a combination of hymns and I guess they would be "contemporary." We have three different "styles" we run through in worship during the month. One Sunday it is all hymns and others it is only one hymn. 

My wife coming from a Pentecostal background had major issues with the songs and praise, however _"the Word is just too good to leave."_ She is adjusting and focusing on the richness of the doxology. Her suggestion to me is to begin working on changing the arrangement but keeping the words because they are so Biblical.

The biggest thing and this really comes out when we visit the prison is in how the African American pastor leads the worship using the hymns. There is no musical accompainment in the prison. That is where I began to realize the power of the hymns. That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word. In the prison it is predominantly the African American inmates who come to chapel. The prison is about 40% White and 40% Black with the rest Latino and then other ethnicities. 

In discussion with others at the church this topic comes up and inevitably the fact that the pastor who is African American and comes from a Baptist "hallelujah" background can have such passion for those "old, White songs." His race is never brought into question as in he "sold out." What it does is convict us that we need to take another look at the hymns and focus on what we are saying versus how many goosebumps we feel.

I had to preach two Sundays ago at the prison and the pastor was not in town, so I led worship and we sang from the hymnal. It was an experience to not only be preaching at the prison for the first time but for the first time in my life to be in front of a group and singing outloud. I had to own that hymn in that I had to believe in it and love it. I had to love the words and the message and I did. It was moving because I could hear the humdrum singing of the inmates which had me sing louder and with more joy. I felt every word and I then understood how my pastor could say that he is not a fan of the hymns but yet sings them with such joy.

To me the hymns are like spinach or artichokes. They are so good for you but you wouldn't choose them if you didn't have to. This happened because of an African American pastor. Unfortunately, and this is painful to admit, if it had been a Caucasian pastor the experience would not be the same. It would have been a situation where _"of course he likes the hymns...he's a White guy."_ Not saying it's right, just confessing my sin. As much as we think we are free from "ethnic sins" or prejudicial sins we are not, especially those of us who claim we are. If the shoe fits then fine, otherwise just keep it moving.

To those who I assume are referring to me being an "agitator." I apologize that this thread has been taken that way. My point was in addressing the fact that the PCA is actively addressing diversity. In the thread "Is the PCA growing?" there was the implication that the PCA is a middle-class Whites-only denomination with no interest in Blacks/Browns. My response there and this thread here is to prove that the PCA is trying to address the issue. A few months ago I agree that I was agitated with the PCA, however since that time I had a change of heart. This thread was about discussing how African American leadership can help to begin to add diversity in the pews. I will post the May newsletter so you can see that multi-ethnic congregations are preferred.


----------



## SemperEruditio

*Please read the following in its entirety. This should help with the discussion. I believe the issue is Black leadership over worship styles. *




PCA-MNA Newsletter said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
> 
> There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
> 
> Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
> 
> I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
> 
> What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
> 
> If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
> 
> In His Service,
> 
> Plummer
> 
> Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator


----------



## JBaldwin

PCA-MNA Newsletter said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
> 
> There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
> 
> Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
> 
> I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
> 
> What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
> 
> If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
> 
> In His Service,
> 
> Plummer
> 
> Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator


[/QUOTE]

This letter touches on what I've been thinking as I've read through this thread. Why are the multi-ethnic church plants more successful? I think it is because they are focusing on the needs of the people rather than on a business model (as has been alluded to in the letter). 

The issue is cultural more than people realize, and it's not just worship styles, though that plays a huge part. The truth is the cultural issue in church planting has been a problem across the board and not just in white vs. black issues. It also has to do with missions in general. 

We really don't realize how much culture influences our worship style and our approach to the church in general. And In my humble opinion where culture does not violate the Scriptures, there is nothing wrong with allowing those things that make us comfortable to be in our worship. I once visited a church where no one arrived on time. Though the worship time was supposed to be 11:00 a.m., the service didn't really get "warmed up" until 12:00 and it went on well into the afternoon. People trickled in for the first hour. Why? It was a cultural thing. For generations, folks in that culture didn't have alarm clocks or ways to tell exact time, so they judged the worship time by where the sun was in the sky. They didn't always judge accurately. The worship style was a bit different than I would expect, but the preaching was solid as were the hymns, though I was totally unfamiliar with the style of singing. 

When the PCA (or any other church planting group) goes into an area where these are the cultural norms, the church planters need to take this into consideration. 

In the case of my own church, many of us prayed for years to get a church planted in our area, but all attempts failed. It wasn't until a church planter came along who understood that a church in this area might look very different from others in the presbytery because of the unique cultural differences in this pocket of the community was a church successfully planted. While our style of fellowship seems to work well in this community, we are still struggling with the worship style. 

Worship is VERY personal, even in a large group, and when we are thrown into a completely uncomfortable situation when it comes to worship, we do tend to want to walk away. 

In short, I think until church planters realize that while their first priority is the purity of the Gospel, faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Word, there is room for what is comfortable in a community without compromising.


----------



## py3ak

Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.


----------



## he beholds

py3ak said:


> Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.



Most of us on this thread have not been talking or thinking about our own comfort at all! We are thinking of the comfort of others--surely that is not sinful and is relevant to the mission of the church. Again I speak of my church, where there a three, maybe four black families, an Asian/Caucasian family and various visitors of other ethnicities, and we are a church in a city with a 57.19% African American population!!! We do not fit the demographics of our city or of our heavenly kingdom--and I think more concern for others' comfort could make us more representative of reality.


----------



## JBaldwin

py3ak said:


> Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.



I appreciate your comment on this. The important thing *is* the preaching of the Word and true worship of Jesus Christ. However, I can't help thinking of the countless missionaries who've gone into other countries and tried to cram Western culture and worship style down the throats of the locals and wondered why God wasn't blessing their efforts. Hudson Taylor was a successful missionary in part because he dressed like the chinese he was trying to win to Christ. 

The words of the apostle Paul come to mind, "I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. " (I Corthinians 9:22) 

If we want to win the African-american community to the Lord, or any other racial group to the Lord, then we are going to have to learn how they think and to some extent embrace what of their culture we can without compromising. 

While I was thinking about this earlier this evening, it occurred to me that even those who hold to EP and no instruments could be more accomodating to the African-American community by setting the psalms to tunes more familiar to the ears of the black community. While it would be a shock to some, I can't imagine that the Lord would be displeased with such an endeavor.


----------



## Pergamum

*A few questions:*

--What is the percentage of blacks in America?

--What is the percentage of blacks in the PCA?

---What is the percentage of PCA pastors/missionaries who are black, and does this match the same percentage of PCA members who are black?




Now, an observation: 

Black foreign missionaries, while serving proudly after the Civil War in Liberia and other places in Africa, are now very poorly represented in missions. 

I do not know the reasons, but I know that the numbers are very poor. 

What needs to be done so that the work of foreign missions is not merely done by WASPs?

Any discussion here about blacks in the PCA can naturally lead into a discussion as to the reasons and solutions to the lack of blacks sent as foreign missionaries. I think the issues are related.


----------



## SemperEruditio

Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able.  I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.

The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is _"Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!"_ The question my colleagues retort with is, _"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"_ This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.

That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries!  Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do.  They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.


----------



## Puritan Sailor

For those interested in gaining a new perspective on African American Christian culture, I would recommend a book by Carl Ellis Jr. called "Free At Last? The Gospel in the African American Experience." I found it very helpful in beginning to understand the cultural issues and how Black worship and preaching style evolved over our history.


----------



## fredtgreco

SemperEruditio said:


> That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.



I don't want to get into the midst of this thread, but this excellent comment needs to be highlighted. We must always remember - first as ministers, also as leaders, and also as members, that we are called to not only experience, but also SHOW the joy and excitement of corporate worship. It is not enough to theologically think about the importance of worship and "it's all about God, not my needs," we must live that theology. 

It does no good to be correct in our thoughts while those around us - especially visitors - see us bored, yawning, scowling at song choice, distracted, etc.

May we all have the attitude of the pastor above.


----------



## SemperEruditio

fredtgreco said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to get into the midst of this thread, but this excellent comment needs to be highlighted. We must always remember - first as ministers, also as leaders, and also as members, that we are called to not only experience, but also SHOW the joy and excitement of corporate worship. It is not enough to theologically think about the importance of worship and "it's all about God, not my needs," we must live that theology.
> 
> It does no good to be correct in our thoughts while those around us - especially visitors - see us bored, yawning, scowling at song choice, distracted, etc.
> 
> May we all have the attitude of the pastor above.
Click to expand...


He's a great guy. He always tells me that _"a theology that isn't lived isn't a theology at all."_ I have learned more from him since I came under his wing in the last 11 months than I did with my former pastor of five years.


----------



## Pergamum

SemperEruditio said:


> Pergamum,
> Your questions on the stats are probably google'able.  I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.
> 
> The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is _"Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!"_ The question my colleagues retort with is, _"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"_ This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.
> 
> That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries!  Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do.  They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.




_"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"_

Interesting! Do you think that this is a common sentiment among black churches?


----------



## SemperEruditio

Pergamum said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"_
> 
> Interesting! Do you think that this is a common sentiment among black churches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you know I cannot comment on Black churches. It's not like the Black church is some monolithic consortium. In my experience though not the Christian ones but the ones which preach a social gospel or liberational gospel perhaps. I have met 10 or so of the ~35 African American PCA pastors and none share this sentiment. It seems to me that the ones I know from seminary who do share this sentiment have an axe to grind. I know one professor who says this regularly however he has never pastored a church and unfortunately has suffered incredibly at the hands of racists. This poor man's wounds are deep and has him gripping to unforgiveness. A shame really. It's confusing to me because these other "gospels" are no gospel at all and instead of "liberating" their congregants every week it seems as though a fresh pinch of salt is added to a festering wound. It's the weirdest thing to hear at chapel about all the transgressions committed by Whites against Blacks or men against women and then told to "love them in spite of..." It's equivalent to "don't think of a polka-dot hippo...don't think of a polka-dot hippo..."
> 
> Not sure if that makes any sense but I'm tired right now.....
Click to expand...


----------



## rbcbob

*Whites training up black leadership in Africa*



SemperEruditio said:


> Pergamum,
> Your questions on the stats are probably google'able.  I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.
> 
> The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is _"Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!"_ The question my colleagues retort with is, _"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"_ This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.
> 
> That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries!  Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do.  They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.



I have appreciated much of what you have shared in this long thread; thank you brother.
By way of encouragement (i hope) our church is sending one of our five elders to Zambia in 2010. This is quite a sacrifice to our people because he is so gifted and used among us. But he and his family are willing to spend the next thirty years there if God is so pleased. Oddly enough he is as pale of a white guy as you will ever meet! And yet another of our elders, who is black, will be staying with us. The elder going to Zambia will focus on training pastors and those aspiring to the office in theology with a view to strengthening the black leadership in the country. It is our conviction that the Church is more apt to prosper under local leadership in the long run.

See LION of Zambia

The Lord bless you


----------



## ChristianTrader

LadyFlynt said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> How the heck did this thread become about music?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think because it was being used as an example and it just slid right into a whole different topic. *People focused on the example, not the point.*
Click to expand...


People went looking for a point and all they found was an example. So you blame the people?



> -----Added 5/31/2009 at 09:37:10 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JDWiseman said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.
> 
> I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity *(make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him)*. I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is where the misunderstanding is and the defensiveness is.
> 
> There is no "make whitey feel guilty"...it is "whitey" that is questioning "why is there a need for more black ministers, are we 'good enough' " as though others are saying they aren't. No one is saying that.
Click to expand...


If you re-read the initial post, then you will see that it was clearly stated that there are least three church plants that will not go forward until black senior pastors are found. How can that not be read that "white is not good enough."

I assume that people decide to plant churches where they believe the gospel is not being proclaimed properly and the flocks are not being shepherded properly. If this is the case, then the stance stated in the OP says, this condition will continue until black pastors are found. This does not imply that whitey cannot do a proper job?




> *They are merely looking at ways to reach out to various communities.*



They are looking for ways that do not include whitey. If it could, then why make him off limits to pastoring in said area?



> *ONE* of those ways is to look for ministers from that same cultural understanding and background to work directly with these people. There is a reason for it. It's not because "whitey is the bane of all their troubles"...it's because they need someone that UNDERSTANDS the issues in THAT community. A church isn't JUST meeting spiritual needs...many times it's also meeting social, physical, and relational needs as well.



So it is inherently impossible for whitey to understand the plight of various black communities? White communities don't have social, physical, and relational needs as well, so potential white pastors have no clue?



> So please, please, please stop being defensive about it. Please TRY to understand that there are culturally relevant ISSUES that not everyone is capable of helping their flock deal with.



I have no disagreement that some people cannot cross certain cultural issues. However that is not a racial issue.

If it is, then if a black seminary trained gospel preaching potential pastor, could be passed over for a middle class white flock because of cultural issues and no one bat an eye. Yeah, I have a bridge in New York to sell you if you believe such to be the case.

Black people do not inhabit some super strange alternative universe that can only be understood by other black people. We may tend to have different false gods that we deal with, but the gospel is the gospel, not a black gospel vs. a white gospel.

-----Added 6/3/2009 at 06:02:46 EST-----



SemperEruditio said:


> *Please read the following in its entirety. This should help with the discussion. I believe the issue is Black leadership over worship styles. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PCA-MNA Newsletter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Friend
> 
> When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
> 
> There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
> 
> Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
> 
> I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
> 
> What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
> 
> If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
> 
> In His Service,
> 
> Plummer
> 
> Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator
Click to expand...


I am not understanding the differences between traditional black, inner city and multi ethnic? Wouldn't everyone want a multi ethnic church?

Next, what is the problem with a white lead multi ethnic church? Does Tim Keller really have a problem finding non-white people to attend his church?

CT


----------



## LadyFlynt

Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out. 

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can *NOT* have a white pastor in there.


----------



## BJClark

LadyFlynt;



> I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can *NOT* have a white pastor in there.



Why not?


----------



## LadyFlynt

BJClark said:


> LadyFlynt;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can *NOT* have a white pastor in there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?
Click to expand...


My husband's response is (because trying to explain it was like trying to explain what blue is to someone blind from birth): Go there for yourself. There is no way to explain it online. It's not simple. When it boils down to it, be prepared for a church fire and a dead pastor.


There are some places you can have a white pastor in a black church, most places in the US, but there are some places that you simply can NOT. East St Louis, currently, you may luck out. Venice and Brooklyn, it will not, cannot happen.


----------



## ChristianTrader

LadyFlynt said:


> Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.
> 
> I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can *NOT* have a white pastor in there.



What part of your post containing the answers did I chose to leave out? Answer: there was not one.

There is no reason to question my integrity because you cannot express yourself properly or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion.

CT


----------



## SemperEruditio

ChristianTrader said:


> or you dislike *being on the losing side of a discussion*


What are we to win or lose? What is the prize?

This discussion is about African American leadership and how by having more of it the Church will be encouraged and grow with more people of diverse backgrounds. African American leadership does not invalidate White leadership nor supplant but adds to it. This is not an either/or but a both/and. We here can very easily monday-morning-quarterback what "should, could, would..." be done but in the end it is those who actually go out and accept the call and do the work of church planting. Wy Plummer has met with these men and hears their cries from the trenches for what they need. White men have said that they will not go into an area because it will essentially be a waste of time without some African American representation. This representation cannot be in the form of the worship leader or some other stereotypical position. It has to be a Black face Black/Brown people can point to and relate with who stands at the pulpit.

Regeneration is not sanctification. Just because a person is now a believer does not mean that they are now free from their sins of racial prejudice. Whites and Blacks are both guilty of racial prejudice. The call for African American leadership is not because of the racial prejudice of Whites in the pews but of African Americans. The lack of African Americans in the pulpits in conservative churches is because of HISTORICAL racial prejudice by White seminaries. So the sins of slavery continue, however not so much in overt or even covert racism by Whites but in the suspicion of both cultures against the other. This suspicion is in so much that it is part of the ethos of American culture. This suspicion has to be addressed. 

Knowing that, do we just sit back and say, _"Just preach the Gospel,"_ and send man after man to areas that are not rejecting the Message but the messenger? I have stated on PB that I believe God has placed us Black/Brown brothers and sisters in the PCA in order that we speak to unregenerate Black/Brown people and get them to church as well as befriend our White brothers & sisters at church. We are ambassadors of Christ and have to deal with the culture and its suspicious ethos. How that is combatted in the Black/Brown community is by Black/Brown people hearing the message from Black/Brown pastors. The message is the same but the messenger is different. Eventually listening to the Gospel under a Black pastor will lead to listening to the messages of Whites and realizing that it is the message not the messenger that is important. However they cannot reach this level of sanctification, if there is such a thing as a "level of sanctification," without going through the others. 

I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply...


----------



## Wayne

Frank:

Thanks to you and Rae for dragging this back to the original topic.

And on your latest paragraph:

"I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply"​
...I wonder if anyone here can tell us more about how wonderfully well the Jackson State RUF group was made to feel welcome and included in everything at the recent RUF conference? I only heard a very brief bit about it, so don't have details.


----------



## LadyFlynt

ChristianTrader said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.
> 
> I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can *NOT* have a white pastor in there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What part of your post containing the answers did I chose to leave out? Answer: there was not one.
> 
> There is no reason to question my integrity because you cannot express yourself properly or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion.
> 
> CT
Click to expand...


If this is how you are viewing the conversation, then I'm sorry to hear that. Your focus is not where it should be as it's not a win/lose conversation. I'm not out to "win" anything. The facts are facts. There are some things that cannot be fully expressed in this medium of communication. It is obvious from your responses that you have neither lived in or near Venice and Brooklyn, IL. If you had, you would understand. The fact is, it would be VERY unwise to put a white pastor there and I DARE YOU to find a white pastor that would be agreeable to moving his family there (and I mean moving them INTO those neighbourhoods, not nearby suburbia). 

I have to wonder if there aren't several reasons that we don't have a greater diversity of ethnicity (and curious as to socioeconomic backgrounds) within the Reformed Pastorate. It would be an interesting topic to pursue.




Wayne said:


> Frank:
> 
> Thanks to you and Rae for dragging this back to the original topic.
> 
> And on your latest paragraph:
> 
> "I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply"​
> ...I wonder if anyone here can tell us more about how wonderfully well the Jackson State RUF group was made to feel welcome and included in everything at the recent RUF conference? I only heard a very brief bit about it, so don't have details.



Could you please clarify, I am unaware of this event.


----------



## ChristianTrader

LadyFlynt,
My focus was on your claim that I somehow left things out in my response to you in order to promote my viewpoint. I do not leave things out of posts. I always answer posts completely in order to maintain context.

If the medium is inadequate then say that, not that I am somehow leaving out various parts of your posts in order to make you look bad.

There is no reason to go Holier than thou at this point, after you made unfounded accusations.

The topic is interesting, if we can actually stay on it.

CT


----------



## kceaster

Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.

As I see it, and not really me, but the Bible; but are we not all members of the same covenant? Really, we can talk about white culture and black culture until we are all BLUE in the face (pun intended). But what we need to capture is a covenantal culture. In the covenant, the differences between races and ethnic peoples are erased forever!!! In the covenant, we should all see the oneness Paul talks about in Ephesians 4:4-6. In the covenant, we should not be separated by anything pertaining to this world.

You may say, that's fine for you, you like your worship because you're white. It's right up your alley. But can we really say that? Don't we all come to Mt. Zion? Don't we all get invited to a preview of the wedding feast? Isn't this the worship of God? Doesn't he provide everything we need to worship Him aright? Shouldn't I be comfortable in any place the Lord calls me to worship? And why is my comfort important? Why should I be offended if the saints don't welcome me as I want to be welcomed? God calls us to worship, we're not calling Him. If my perspective is white, black, yellow, or green, I'm not being called to worship by my God and savior, I'm calling myself. I am making the terms. If we're going to Mt. Zion, I can't say to any brother or sister, I don't want to go there on your bus.

Additionally, isn't the segregation of races and ethnic groups really saying to the hand, I don't need you. Isn't it withdrawing the right hand of fellowship? This is shameful within the church.

But just because someone offends me, does not mean I need to be offended. And just because someone doesn't accept me, doesn't mean I'm not accepted.

These differences are petty and small and do not see the long view or really understand the purpose of worship. We are rehearsing on earth, what is a reality in Heaven. At the wedding feast of the Lamb, there will be only those dressed in wedding clothes. There won't be white men, brown men, yellow men, etc. We're ONE bride, for pete's sake!

Let's reclaim the transcending truth of the covenant. Let's adopt the covenant culture instead of holding onto the stupidity of prejudice.

If you can't live in my culture and I can't live in yours, let's both move and live in the covenant.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## LadyFlynt

ChristianTrader said:


> LadyFlynt,
> My focus was on your claim that I somehow left things out in my response to you in order to promote my viewpoint. I do not leave things out of posts. I always answer posts completely in order to maintain context.
> 
> If the medium is inadequate then say that, not that I am somehow leaving out various parts of your posts in order to make you look bad.
> 
> There is no reason to go Holier than thou at this point, after you made unfounded accusations.
> 
> The topic is interesting, if we can actually stay on it.
> 
> CT




Went back and reread (as this thread was dead for a time). Upon rereading I believe you MISUNDERSTOOD my point. 

There are some cultural issues that many white ministers cannot understand within other cultural communities. There are cultural issues that a minister who grew up middle class and makes a good living, drives a classy car, and lives in a gated community cannot understand within certain lower socioeconomic spheres.


Also, I did not intend to question your integrity, but my apologies for doing so (I see where I mispoke). And I don't appreciate you questioning mine with calling me "holier than thou". I never pulled an attitude on you. I also DID say, in another post though not directly at you, that this medium is not adequate.

-----Added 6/11/2009 at 02:18:26 EST-----



kceaster said:


> Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.
> 
> As I see it, and not really me, but the Bible; but are we not all members of the same covenant? Really, we can talk about white culture and black culture until we are all BLUE in the face (pun intended). But what we need to capture is a covenantal culture. In the covenant, the differences between races and ethnic peoples are erased forever!!! In the covenant, we should all see the oneness Paul talks about in Ephesians 4:4-6. In the covenant, we should not be separated by anything pertaining to this world.
> 
> You may say, that's fine for you, you like your worship because you're white. It's right up your alley. But can we really say that? Don't we all come to Mt. Zion? Don't we all get invited to a preview of the wedding feast? Isn't this the worship of God? Doesn't he provide everything we need to worship Him aright? Shouldn't I be comfortable in any place the Lord calls me to worship? And why is my comfort important? Why should I be offended if the saints don't welcome me as I want to be welcomed? God calls us to worship, we're not calling Him. If my perspective is white, black, yellow, or green, I'm not being called to worship by my God and savior, I'm calling myself. I am making the terms. If we're going to Mt. Zion, I can't say to any brother or sister, I don't want to go there on your bus.
> 
> Additionally, isn't the segregation of races and ethnic groups really saying to the hand, I don't need you. Isn't it withdrawing the right hand of fellowship? This is shameful within the church.
> 
> But just because someone offends me, does not mean I need to be offended. And just because someone doesn't accept me, doesn't mean I'm not accepted.
> 
> These differences are petty and small and do not see the long view or really understand the purpose of worship. We are rehearsing on earth, what is a reality in Heaven. At the wedding feast of the Lamb, there will be only those dressed in wedding clothes. There won't be white men, brown men, yellow men, etc. We're ONE bride, for pete's sake!
> 
> Let's reclaim the transcending truth of the covenant. Let's adopt the covenant culture instead of holding onto the stupidity of prejudice.
> 
> If you can't live in my culture and I can't live in yours, let's both move and live in the covenant.
> 
> In Christ,
> 
> KC




It's not segregation in that searching for black pastors does not exclude the support roles of white ministers in this out reach. They are simply dealing with the facts of certain situations. 


Native Americans were educated and trained in seminaries so that they could be sent to start churches amoungst other Native Americans that did not trust certain types of white people. Was that segregationist or to the exclusion of white people? No. It was the white people that were being the support system and learning to deal with and reach out in what way they could. (we'll leave out the entire boarding school fiasco...but comparatively, training and sending back in other Native Americans was not damaging and offered something/someone to bridge the gap).


----------



## SemperEruditio

kceaster said:


> Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.
> 
> As I see it, and not really me, but the Bible; but are we not all members of the same covenant? Really, we can talk about white culture and black culture until we are all BLUE in the face (pun intended). But what we need to capture is a covenantal culture. In the covenant, the differences between races and ethnic peoples are erased forever!!! In the covenant, we should all see the oneness Paul talks about in Ephesians 4:4-6. In the covenant, we should not be separated by anything pertaining to this world.
> 
> You may say, that's fine for you, you like your worship because you're white. It's right up your alley. But can we really say that? Don't we all come to Mt. Zion? Don't we all get invited to a preview of the wedding feast? Isn't this the worship of God? Doesn't he provide everything we need to worship Him aright? Shouldn't I be comfortable in any place the Lord calls me to worship? And why is my comfort important? Why should I be offended if the saints don't welcome me as I want to be welcomed? God calls us to worship, we're not calling Him. If my perspective is white, black, yellow, or green, I'm not being called to worship by my God and savior, I'm calling myself. I am making the terms. If we're going to Mt. Zion, I can't say to any brother or sister, I don't want to go there on your bus.
> 
> Additionally, isn't the segregation of races and ethnic groups really saying to the hand, I don't need you. Isn't it withdrawing the right hand of fellowship? This is shameful within the church.
> 
> But just because someone offends me, does not mean I need to be offended. And just because someone doesn't accept me, doesn't mean I'm not accepted.
> 
> These differences are petty and small and do not see the long view or really understand the purpose of worship. We are rehearsing on earth, what is a reality in Heaven. At the wedding feast of the Lamb, there will be only those dressed in wedding clothes. There won't be white men, brown men, yellow men, etc. We're ONE bride, for pete's sake!
> 
> Let's reclaim the transcending truth of the covenant. Let's adopt the covenant culture instead of holding onto the stupidity of prejudice.
> 
> If you can't live in my culture and I can't live in yours, let's both move and live in the covenant.
> 
> In Christ,
> 
> KC



How do we adopt a covenantal culture with cultures who:

1) are not yet believers?
2) do not hear the call because of the culture of the messenger?

What you are saying I completely agree with, however that is for those who are in the covenant now or if not they are open to receiving the Gospel from someone of another culture. We have to address those who are not "there" yet. I believe God is able to tear away whatever to have us see and hear his Word, however I do not believe we should resign and just say 

_"We're all part of God's family...so let's have a dress rehearsal for heaven..."_ We have sin to deal with and if the ears of more than a few will be opened by simply having the person at the pulpit be the right color I say "great" because I know it doesn't take long after that for the suspicion to come tumbling down as well. Now I am talking from a multi-cultural viewpoint because after all those are the churches people want and the ones which demonstrate we can be a covenantal people regardless of race or culture.


----------



## BlackCalvinist

*pokes head in*

*reading*


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Because of culture and sin, groups are hard to (invade) permeate or be accepted in. Suspision is had by every kinman and culture. Ever see a white guy try to adopt a black culture as his own when he doesn't come from it. He is mocked by both sides. Everyone becomes suspicious of his motives. 

Self preservation, love of things familiar, the things that bring a community together are things that have commonality and are what tie people together. Cultures are built on commonalities. For some reason Jim Cymbala of the Brooklyn Tabernacle has found a way to bring different cultures together. It would be very hard for someone who holds to Exclusive Psalmody and doctrines of Degrees of Separation in some areas to do this. 

I read Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret over 20 years ago. I admired what he did. He overcame ego by becoming something he wasn't. He took on to himself aspects of the Chinese Culture so that he could bring some to Christ. He seems to have taken on Paul's attitude in this. 



> (1Co 9:18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
> 
> (1Co 9:19) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
> 
> (1Co 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
> 
> (1Co 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
> 
> (1Co 9:22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
> 
> (1Co 9:23) And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.



The one commonality that we all share in this world cross culturally is sin. It is the curse of the Covenant of Works that we have all failed in and have inherited by Adam. It isn't a White, Black, Yellow, or Red thing. 

I went out to evangelize outside a night club one night. It happened to be a night where the black culture was congregating to party. This place accomodated all venues. I started sharing with some of the dudes in the parking lot and someone started to attack me because I was white. When I mentioned that it wasn't a white thing that we all had to deal with our imperfections and sin before a perfectly Holy and Good God the scenerio changed. We are all naked in his sight and have the same problem. I gained an audience at that time with listening ears. Another thing that these guys saw was that I wasn't out to gain anything from them. I wasn't after their money or trying to get them to go to my church necessarly. I was just out sharing the Gospel of Christ with no strings attached. That is something that most people look at when they look at someone invading their space. And it was something that Paul knew. In fact I believe that is why he didn't live off the gospel as he mentions in the previous verses in 1 Corinthians 9. He didn't want to hinder the message as he went to the various cultures to share Christ. But he also says that it is right for a minister to live off of the gospel. 

Just some thoughts on the matter. 

Be Encouraged,


----------



## ChristianTrader

SemperEruditio said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> or you dislike *being on the losing side of a discussion*
> 
> 
> 
> What are we to win or lose? What is the prize?
Click to expand...


A win is a consensus on the precise nature of the problem. This will lead to a proper solution. A lose would be us talking around in circles, no closer to a proper consensus than when we started.



> This discussion is about African American leadership and how by having more of it the Church will be encouraged and grow with more people of diverse backgrounds. African American leadership does not invalidate White leadership nor supplant but adds to it. This is not an either/or but a both/and. We here can very easily monday-morning-quarterback what "should, could, would..." be done but in the end it is those who actually go out and accept the call and do the work of church planting. Wy Plummer has met with these men and hears their cries from the trenches for what they need. White men have said that they will not go into an area because it will essentially be a waste of time without some African American representation. This representation cannot be in the form of the worship leader or some other stereotypical position. It has to be a Black face Black/Brown people can point to and relate with who stands at the pulpit.



My problem here is that I do not think that anyone is that racist or irrational as black folks are being portrayed in this scenario. There are many other alternative scenarios that should be looked at before we settle on this one. For example, in what other scenarios would you think that someone who finds themselves in a tight spot would reject help? If your drove your car into a ditch and couldn't get it out, would you reject help from someone who had a toe truck and offered to help you for free, deciding to just stay in the ditch? If you or your family were starving, would you just reject help and just starve? The answer to both questions is a simple no. I think the better view is that various black folks either are not convinced that they have a problem (lack of true gospel) or that various ministers have a solution to said problem that is better than what they already have access to (the health/wealth sermons, etc.)



> Regeneration is not sanctification. Just because a person is now a believer does not mean that they are now free from their sins of racial prejudice. Whites and Blacks are both guilty of racial prejudice. The call for African American leadership is not because of the racial prejudice of Whites in the pews but of African Americans. The lack of African Americans in the pulpits in conservative churches is because of HISTORICAL racial prejudice by White seminaries. So the sins of slavery continue, however not so much in overt or even covert racism by Whites but in the suspicion of both cultures against the other. This suspicion is in so much that it is part of the ethos of American culture. This suspicion has to be addressed.



I have no doubt that there are either various suspicions held by all sides or that there at least could be various suspicions. I think we diverge in belief that such suspicions can or cannot be overcome.



> Knowing that, do we just sit back and say, _"Just preach the Gospel,"_ and send man after man to areas that are not rejecting the Message but the messenger? I have stated on PB that I believe God has placed us Black/Brown brothers and sisters in the PCA in order that we speak to unregenerate Black/Brown people and get them to church as well as befriend our White brothers & sisters at church. We are ambassadors of Christ and have to deal with the culture and its suspicious ethos. How that is combatted in the Black/Brown community is by Black/Brown people hearing the message from Black/Brown pastors. The message is the same but the messenger is different. Eventually listening to the Gospel under a Black pastor will lead to listening to the messages of Whites and realizing that it is the message not the messenger that is important. However they cannot reach this level of sanctification, if there is such a thing as a "level of sanctification," without going through the others.
> 
> I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply...



I think there are problems that are not simply solved by putting a black face into various pulpits.

CT

-----Added 6/11/2009 at 06:53:23 EST-----



LadyFlynt said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> 
> LadyFlynt,
> My focus was on your claim that I somehow left things out in my response to you in order to promote my viewpoint. I do not leave things out of posts. I always answer posts completely in order to maintain context.
> 
> If the medium is inadequate then say that, not that I am somehow leaving out various parts of your posts in order to make you look bad.
> 
> There is no reason to go Holier than thou at this point, after you made unfounded accusations.
> 
> The topic is interesting, if we can actually stay on it.
> 
> CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Went back and reread (as this thread was dead for a time). Upon rereading I believe you MISUNDERSTOOD my point.
> 
> There are some cultural issues that many white ministers cannot understand within other cultural communities. There are cultural issues that a minister who grew up middle class and makes a good living, drives a classy car, and lives in a gated community cannot understand within certain lower socioeconomic spheres.
Click to expand...


This goes back to what I said before, Black people (poor/fatherless people etc.) do not live in this super different alternative universe. It might take work for people who have not had/have the same difficulties in life to understand, but that can be overcome. If someone who grew up in a lower socioeconomic sphere, and wanted to be a candidate in a high sphere, and those in the higher sphere said, "No, he doesn't/cannot understand our culture", would you just say "okay that makes sense"?



> Also, I did not intend to question your integrity, but my apologies for doing so (I see where I mispoke). And I don't appreciate you questioning mine with calling me "holier than thou". I never pulled an attitude on you. I also DID say, in another post though not directly at you, that this medium is not adequate.



Alright, I apologize as well and we can now move on to having a productive discussion.


----------



## kceaster

LadyFlynt said:


> It's not segregation in that searching for black pastors does not exclude the support roles of white ministers in this out reach. They are simply dealing with the facts of certain situations.
> 
> 
> Native Americans were educated and trained in seminaries so that they could be sent to start churches amoungst other Native Americans that did not trust certain types of white people. Was that segregationist or to the exclusion of white people? No. It was the white people that were being the support system and learning to deal with and reach out in what way they could. (we'll leave out the entire boarding school fiasco...but comparatively, training and sending back in other Native Americans was not damaging and offered something/someone to bridge the gap).



While the two situations may appear to be similar, they aren't. The native americans were a true foreign mission field in that their culture and society was completely foreign to the white man, and they to him. They had existed for hundreds of years without any outside influences from western culture. We didn't speak their language and our ways were completely strange to them. In those cases we do need to train up indigenous people in order to advance the gospel.

The many other cultures in America who have grown together for the last 2 or 3 hundred years, and speak the same language, live in the same states, and experience the same daily life do not need to be treated as a foreign mission field, In my humble opinion. If we do, we are saying that it is okay to alienate most or part of the church.

There are Irish-Americans. Do they need their own pastors and their own churches? There are Italian-Americans. Same thing? German-Americans? Russian-Americans? I, for one, see the trend of trying to differentiate yourself from someone else, as a terrible end to democracy. We each want our own voice, as if our voice is any different from anyone else's. The minority voice (and I do think I am in a minority even though I am white... I am an Orthodox Presbyterian), wants to be an equal voice with everyone else. That is not a bad thing, in and of itself. But if we believe we are not represented because we have a federal head (of some kind, i.e. congressman, mayor, pastor, etc.) who is not like us, then aren't we really just searching for our own Pope? This will not solve anything. It isn't even a good compromise. It allows us all to choose (for the wrong reasons) those to whom we will submit ourselves. In God's kingdom, should we be making a choice based upon our own criteria, or upon His?

Pastor Eric Watkins of Covenant OPC in St. Augustine, where we are membered, openly states that he is multi-racial. He is black, white, and Cherokee, and probably something else. He and his wife, who is white, have adopted two children who are both black. He embodies the covenant. But to us, he is our pastor. I don't think about his ethnicity when he preaches or teaches. I don't secretly wish for a white man to replace him. I'm not submitting myself and my family to him just because we have no other options at this time. It doesn't even enter our minds.

The point is, we will divide on whatever we are holding onto most dearly. And if we erect churches already based on division, a division that is not involuntary, as in language barrier, but voluntarily chosen, because that is our culture, what are we doing but allowing the world, the flesh, and the devil to have a front row seat?

There is great merit and wisdom in doing this because it will bring together what God has never meant to be separated. If we plant purple pastors in purple neighborhoods because the purple people don't really like or trust the orange people, we are defacto allowing sin to flourish. Of course, we do it with the best of intentions, to win the purple people to Christ. But we can't ignore the clear mandate of the gospel in order to accomplish that.

I am in no way saying that we should not send black pastors to plant churches everywhere a church is needed. A black man may be who the Lord calls to that work. But to make the decision based, not upon the qualifications of the scriptures (which said nothing about race or ethnicity, btw), but upon the color of his skin and the neighborhood we want to work on next? I can't see how that is biblical. We should be planting churches, period. And we shouldn't be trying to target any one people who happen to be different from another.

That is why I happen to like the OPC model of church planting. We don't go into a neighborhood and say we need an OPC here. We evangelize anywhere and everywhere, wait for the seed to grow, and if they are desirous to be OPC, we'll send men to them to help lead and shepherd them. The demographic model will need to be thrown out at some point. It is just not biblical.

In Christ,

KC

-----Added 6/12/2009 at 09:07:46 EST-----



SemperEruditio said:


> How do we adopt a covenantal culture with cultures who:
> 
> 1) are not yet believers?
> 2) do not hear the call because of the culture of the messenger?
> 
> What you are saying I completely agree with, however that is for those who are in the covenant now or if not they are open to receiving the Gospel from someone of another culture. We have to address those who are not "there" yet. I believe God is able to tear away whatever to have us see and hear his Word, however I do not believe we should resign and just say
> 
> _"We're all part of God's family...so let's have a dress rehearsal for heaven..."_ We have sin to deal with and if the ears of more than a few will be opened by simply having the person at the pulpit be the right color I say "great" because I know it doesn't take long after that for the suspicion to come tumbling down as well. Now I am talking from a multi-cultural viewpoint because after all those are the churches people want and the ones which demonstrate we can be a covenantal people regardless of race or culture.



Okay, how is this different from changing the gospel message in order to win some? As I replied to another earlier, I am not opposed to sending any man anywhere as long as the gospel is preached. But if we make the decision based on a demographic, that is clearly not biblical. It is changing our message to do so. Yes, the message is still the same, but we feel we need to change the coating so that the bitter pill will be easier to swallow. That is wrong. 

We don't even do that in foreign missions. We're just looking for anyone who can speak the language, we don't really care what color they are.

The point is, if God is for us, who can be against us? It's almost like you're saying that God will accomplish more in black neighborhoods if black evangelists are sent to them. Is His arm so short? I apologize for being so bold to you as I don't really know you and you don't know me, and I mean no offense. But I would encourage you to see that our God can accomplish anything. It doesn't matter what the odds are against it. It doesn't matter what the obstacle is, God will knock it down.

The power of the gospel is not hampered by anything. It tears down strongholds, it runs swiftly, and it cannot be shaken. But the power of the gospel is not in the way it is presented or who presents it. It is with the Holy Spirit and with power! May God forgive us for wielding our gospel sword so feebly.

I have probably said too much and too boldly. All I want to get you to see is that we need to worry more about the message, than the one who is presenting it. God will call His man, but we still have to commission and send him. Please don't make that decision based upon the color of his skin.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## SemperEruditio

kceaster said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not segregation in that searching for black pastors does not exclude the support roles of white ministers in this out reach. They are simply dealing with the facts of certain situations.
> 
> 
> Native Americans were educated and trained in seminaries so that they could be sent to start churches amoungst other Native Americans that did not trust certain types of white people. Was that segregationist or to the exclusion of white people? No. It was the white people that were being the support system and learning to deal with and reach out in what way they could. (we'll leave out the entire boarding school fiasco...but comparatively, training and sending back in other Native Americans was not damaging and offered something/someone to bridge the gap).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the two situations may appear to be similar, they aren't. The native americans were a true foreign mission field in that their culture and society was completely foreign to the white man, and they to him. They had existed for hundreds of years without any outside influences from western culture. We didn't speak their language and our ways were completely strange to them. In those cases we do need to train up indigenous people in order to advance the gospel.
> 
> The many other cultures in America who have grown together for the last 2 or 3 hundred years, and speak the same language, live in the same states, and experience the same daily life do not need to be treated as a foreign mission field, In my humble opinion. If we do, we are saying that it is okay to alienate most or part of the church.
Click to expand...

Grown together? That is exactly the point, African American have not grown together with the rest of the culture. Their inclusion into America by having the same rights happened how long ago? A few decades?



kceaster said:


> There are Irish-Americans. Do they need their own pastors and their own churches? There are Italian-Americans. Same thing? German-Americans? Russian-Americans? I, for one, see the trend of trying to differentiate yourself from someone else, as a terrible end to democracy. We each want our own voice, as if our voice is any different from anyone else's. The minority voice (and I do think I am in a minority even though I am white... I am an Orthodox Presbyterian), wants to be an equal voice with everyone else. That is not a bad thing, in and of itself. But if we believe we are not represented because we have a federal head (of some kind, i.e. congressman, mayor, pastor, etc.) who is not like us, then aren't we really just searching for our own Pope? This will not solve anything. It isn't even a good compromise. It allows us all to choose (for the wrong reasons) those to whom we will submit ourselves. In God's kingdom, should we be making a choice based upon our own criteria, or upon His?


A people who were forcibly subjected to submit to others because of the color of their skin now are very particular or like I stated before suspicious to who they will submit. Now again we have _"In God's Kingdom"_ but are we talking about Kingdom people only? Those who know the true gospel would not have a problem in listening to anyone or following anyone but are we talking about those who know the true gospel of Christ or some perversion?



kceaster said:


> Pastor Eric Watkins of Covenant OPC in St. Augustine, where we are membered, openly states that he is multi-racial. He is black, white, and Cherokee, and probably something else. He and his wife, who is white, have adopted two children who are both black. He embodies the covenant. But to us, he is our pastor. I don't think about his ethnicity when he preaches or teaches. I don't secretly wish for a white man to replace him. I'm not submitting myself and my family to him just because we have no other options at this time. It doesn't even enter our minds.


You are a Christian. You are White. If you were a Christian who was Black you would also not have these hangups. However we are talking about people who cannot be classified as Christian because they gospel they have heard IF they heard it is not Christian. So should an unregenerate people in sin behave or be expected to behave, think, act, love, endure...like Christians?



kceaster said:


> The point is, we will divide on whatever we are holding onto most dearly. And if we erect churches already based on division, a division that is not involuntary, as in language barrier, but voluntarily chosen, because that is our culture, what are we doing but allowing the world, the flesh, and the devil to have a front row seat?


The focus is on adding African American leadership not separation. The hope was one day to have a Black Church which from it they could send out Black men. PCA-MNA has realized that what is best is exactly what you are posting about here, to send out men two by two who are multi-ethnic. To diversify the foundation of a new church plant by having pastors of differing ethnicities.



kceaster said:


> There is great merit and wisdom in doing this because it will bring together what God has never meant to be separated. If we plant purple pastors in purple neighborhoods because the purple people don't really like or trust the orange people, we are defacto allowing sin to flourish. Of course, we do it with the best of intentions, to win the purple people to Christ. But we can't ignore the clear mandate of the gospel in order to accomplish that.


And if we plant purple pastors and orange pastors in purple neighborhoods or vice versa are we not fulfilling the clear mandate of the gospel as well as addressing the problems of the culture?



kceaster said:


> I am in no way saying that we should not send black pastors to plant churches everywhere a church is needed. A black man may be who the Lord calls to that work. But to make the decision based, not upon the qualifications of the scriptures (which said nothing about race or ethnicity, btw), but upon the color of his skin and the neighborhood we want to work on next? I can't see how that is biblical. We should be planting churches, period. And we shouldn't be trying to target any one people who happen to be different from another.


Now where did this leap in logic come from? Who said these men are not qualified in scripture? And who says that we shouldn't be trying to target sinners over believers?



kceaster said:


> That is why I happen to like the OPC model of church planting. We don't go into a neighborhood and say we need an OPC here. We evangelize anywhere and everywhere, wait for the seed to grow, and if they are desirous to be OPC, we'll send men to them to help lead and shepherd them. The demographic model will need to be thrown out at some point. It is just not biblical.


Had an OPC member come to our church because he heard we are multi-ethnic and wanted to know how. He was told it was simple, we had a RE and TE who are African American. He asked if we had any interns who might want to answer a call to the church... The demographic model will be thrown out when demographics don't matter.


----------



## kceaster

SemperEruditio said:


> Grown together? That is exactly the point, African American have not grown together with the rest of the culture. Their inclusion into America by having the same rights happened how long ago? A few decades?



This is no different from the ethnic groups who had to learn how to get along with all the other groups in the settling of America. I will not even pretend to know what it is like to be part of a people group like that, but if other groups can do it, then any group can do it. It just takes time and effort.




SemperEruditio said:


> A people who were forcibly subjected to submit to others because of the color of their skin now are very particular or like I stated before suspicious to who they will submit. Now again we have _"In God's Kingdom"_ but are we talking about Kingdom people only? Those who know the true gospel would not have a problem in listening to anyone or following anyone but are we talking about those who know the true gospel of Christ or some perversion?



I am sorry that this perspective exists. But no African-American living in the US today has ever been a slave unless they are 150 years old. They may still feel the after affects, but as I said before, if someone doesn't accept who I am, that doesn't mean I'm not accepted. I know this is a huge hurdle, but with God, all things are possible. We do not have to change Him in order to change anybody. We should have the freedom and wisdom to send anyone we want.



SemperEruditio said:


> You are a Christian. You are White. If you were a Christian who was Black you would also not have these hangups. However we are talking about people who cannot be classified as Christian because they gospel they have heard IF they heard it is not Christian. So should an unregenerate people in sin behave or be expected to behave, think, act, love, endure...like Christians?



Of course not, but this is no reason to send whoever is qualified by the inward man, not by the outward man. There is no reason to make this about race. It is not about race, but about the power of the gospel to change lives. You are giving these same people a license to be racist in the reverse. That is just as wrong as someone being a racist against African-Americans. If we are to eradicate racism in America, that does not mean one race has to change and the other doesn't. They both have to adjust their perspective.



SemperEruditio said:


> The focus is on adding African American leadership not separation. The hope was one day to have a Black Church which from it they could send out Black men. PCA-MNA has realized that what is best is exactly what you are posting about here, to send out men two by two who are multi-ethnic. To diversify the foundation of a new church plant by having pastors of differing ethnicities.



If the focus is on adding African American leadership it is heading in the wrong direction. That's the whole point of Paul's instructions to Timothy and Titus. The qualifications have nothing to do with race. I am positive that some of the leaders of the early church were of African descent. But they weren't chosen for their color. They were chosen for how God was working in them.



SemperEruditio said:


> And if we plant purple pastors and orange pastors in purple neighborhoods or vice versa are we not fulfilling the clear mandate of the gospel as well as addressing the problems of the culture?



I'll give you an example that was a contributing factor to the Old School, New School controversy and the schism of 1837. The Plan of Union of 1801 was made with the idea that that congregational and presbyterian churches could have their pulpits filled by either congregational or presbyterian ministers. It was thought to be a sound idea by some because it would foster peace and unity. But since the two bodies were so doctrinally far apart, with the congregationalists getting the better of the deal, it was finally realized what that would do to the church long term. Eventually the doctrine was diluted, which lead to expulsion of the churches by the general assembly.

Now this example does not fully equate to the matter at hand, but what it does show is that where compromise is made, where bending to the apparent needs of the people is granted, error and dilution of doctrine ensue.

We have to be so careful with how we grow the church. Because we always have error mixed in with it. That error can become a poison that goes directly to the roots. So, we should look to the scriptures to see how we should proceed. The scriptures, as far as I can tell, do not advocate bending to culture in order to win men to Christ. Look no further than Paul in Corinth. He wasn't advocating they needed to bend to their culture in any way, shape, or form.



SemperEruditio said:


> Now where did this leap in logic come from? Who said these men are not qualified in scripture? And who says that we shouldn't be trying to target sinners over believers?



Read it carefully, I didn't say the men weren't qualified, I said that the qualifications do not include skin color. The qualifications are for the inner man, not the appearance of a man.

We are not trying to target sinners to make them believers. We should be preaching the gospel to anyone and everyone, not just the people we think need it the most. I need to hear the gospel daily. I need to respond to it daily. Believers need to hear the gospel, too. Targeting is man's way of trying to manipulate God's kingdom. You know what, without "targeting," myriads upon myriads have been saved. God is Sovereign. He knows exactly what His elect need in order to come to a saving knowledge of the truth. He may send a missionary off to some corner of the world who is only with one tribe for a month and is senselessly martyred. Yet the one seed he planted and God waters, could take over that whole tribe, country, and continent. 

That's what I'm getting at. You don't seem to be looking at the long view. You want to take back Satan's foothold in some place or other, that's good. But in so doing, don't compromise, or give him one inch. This culture is like a tool in his hand. He is wielding it well. But we know the weapons with which we fight. They transcend all manner of his wiles. He is defeated and he knows it. We need to remember that in the end, he is undone. We need to start acting like we're victors through Christ, and send WHOMEVER God chooses to take back the ground upon which Christ is King, forever. 



SemperEruditio said:


> Had an OPC member come to our church because he heard we are multi-ethnic and wanted to know how. He was told it was simple, we had a RE and TE who are African American. He asked if we had any interns who might want to answer a call to the church... The demographic model will be thrown out when demographics don't matter.



Demographics only matter if we think small and we think God's arm can't reach there because we're not the right size or shape. Where the Bible talks about demographics is where every nation, tribe, and tongue gather to praise the name of God, and His Christ, TOGETHER.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## SemperEruditio

​
I see. Thanks for the Presbyterian history lesson. I have a long way to go to get to that course at Whitefield so thanks for that. Learn something new everyday.

I have only, since attending my liberal seminary, been leaning toward culture. I can see now how much and to my detriment so I will keep that in check. I have always been accused of being "too hard" and especially before I was told that I needed to soften up. However that was pre-PCA. If I remain honest to my personality I would not stand for someone telling me that they will not go into an area unless they have someone else with them. Perhaps it is my time with the Marines as a corpsman because my attitude has been, still is, and will probably always be _"Suck it up!"_ If God has called you to an area, pray up and get moving, so in keeping with my personality and not the softer, gentler side of being culturally sensitive that I will begin to shed I say _"Suck it up!"_

I can see your point and the slippery slope of addressing sin with essentially sin is not the way to go.  Addressing the evils of racism by allowing it to continue but in another form does not address it but merely sanctions it. If it was not okay for Whites to be separatists then it should not be okay for Blacks, Brown, purples, oranges.... Even if the claim is they are separating to unite...? 

If the issue is sin then we address it Biblically, however if the issue is culture and not a sin in the culture but actual culture then that is addressed by being salt and light. I can't think of any instances where if we approach culture any culture with the Gospel and the fruits of the Spirit those people will not eventually realize we are serious and begin to pay attention.

In defending a point I began to prioritize addressing the needs of the culture over the mandates of God. I pray you guys are able to make the distinction between my posts and Wy Plummer's newsletter. We are not both one and the same and I do not want my opinions to be misconstrued as his as I was not speaking for him but for myself. Still working out this whole culture thing. I have been on both extremes and am kinda settling on the side that it is only important if we make it so, otherwise it is just another obstacle to the gospel.

Thanks for your patience and boldness. Firm but gentle...little bit of steel & velvet there. I appreciate it.


For those who have been praying, Thank you!
​
I still say we need more men of color in the PCA but I will gladly accept more men of character regardless of color....as long as their Cuban.  And it is the OPC that has a church in Cuba so I guess I ain't got nuffin bad to say about you OPC'ers.


----------



## BJClark

> This goes back to what I said before, Black people (poor/fatherless people etc.) do not live in this super different alternative universe.



I agree, because it's not just blacks who are poor/fatherless people..many others live in the same situation..and it reaches out over all colors of people.

And it is just as difficult for them to extend beyond that as it is for 'blacks', which is one of the reasons I get so tired of it coming across as if it's just a certain group of people who 'suffer' this plight..


----------



## kceaster

SemperEruditio said:


> ​
> I see. Thanks for the Presbyterian history lesson. I have a long way to go to get to that course at Whitefield so thanks for that. Learn something new everyday.
> 
> I have only, since attending my liberal seminary, been leaning toward culture. I can see now how much and to my detriment so I will keep that in check. I have always been accused of being "too hard" and especially before I was told that I needed to soften up. However that was pre-PCA. If I remain honest to my personality I would not stand for someone telling me that they will not go into an area unless they have someone else with them. Perhaps it is my time with the Marines as a corpsman because my attitude has been, still is, and will probably always be _"Suck it up!"_ If God has called you to an area, pray up and get moving, so in keeping with my personality and not the softer, gentler side of being culturally sensitive that I will begin to shed I say _"Suck it up!"_
> 
> I can see your point and the slippery slope of addressing sin with essentially sin is not the way to go.  Addressing the evils of racism by allowing it to continue but in another form does not address it but merely sanctions it. If it was not okay for Whites to be separatists then it should not be okay for Blacks, Brown, purples, oranges.... Even if the claim is they are separating to unite...?
> 
> If the issue is sin then we address it Biblically, however if the issue is culture and not a sin in the culture but actual culture then that is addressed by being salt and light. I can't think of any instances where if we approach culture any culture with the Gospel and the fruits of the Spirit those people will not eventually realize we are serious and begin to pay attention.
> 
> In defending a point I began to prioritize addressing the needs of the culture over the mandates of God. I pray you guys are able to make the distinction between my posts and Wy Plummer's newsletter. We are not both one and the same and I do not want my opinions to be misconstrued as his as I was not speaking for him but for myself. Still working out this whole culture thing. I have been on both extremes and am kinda settling on the side that it is only important if we make it so, otherwise it is just another obstacle to the gospel.
> 
> Thanks for your patience and boldness. Firm but gentle...little bit of steel & velvet there. I appreciate it.
> 
> 
> For those who have been praying, Thank you!
> ​
> I still say we need more men of color in the PCA but I will gladly accept more men of character regardless of color....as long as their Cuban.  And it is the OPC that has a church in Cuba so I guess I ain't got nuffin bad to say about you OPC'ers.



Being a former Marine, I know just what you mean. I can be a bit sharp at times. I hope I wasn't making my case too boldly. I love you, Frank. If you're ever in the Jacksonville/St. Augustine Area, I hope you'll look me up. We'll go worship the Lord together.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## LadyFlynt

ChristianTrader said:


> If someone who grew up in a lower socioeconomic sphere, and wanted to be a candidate in a high sphere, and those in the higher sphere said, "No, he doesn't/cannot understand our culture", would you just say "okay that makes sense"?



There is a difference in reaching out to hurting people and helping them up (into right doctrine and even into an education to advance into a pulpit and to reach out to more) and denying someone from advancing...polar opposites. I have further thoughts on this scenario, but I cannot discuss them.


----------



## SemperEruditio

kceaster said:


> Being a former Marine, I know just what you mean. I can be a bit sharp at times. I hope I wasn't making my case too boldly. I love you, Frank. If you're ever in the Jacksonville/St. Augustine Area, I hope you'll look me up. We'll go worship the Lord together.
> 
> In Christ,
> 
> KC



Like I said, no worries. I prefer boldness. I didn't get the sense that you had an axe to grind on this so I was able to read what you posted and what you meant with no problem. Perhaps even over these 1's & 0's a former devil dog and doc still relate without even knowing it...or maybe it's just God or.....

J-ville?! Yeah that'll work. My out-laws live there, so now I have an excuse to visit.


----------



## LadyFlynt

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Because of culture and sin, groups are hard to (invade) permeate or be accepted in. Suspision is had by every kinman and culture. Ever see a white guy try to adopt a black culture as his own when he doesn't come from it. He is mocked by both sides. Everyone becomes suspicious of his motives.
> 
> Self preservation, love of things familiar, the things that bring a community together are things that have commonality and are what tie people together. Cultures are built on commonalities. For some reason Jim Cymbala of the Brooklyn Tabernacle has found a way to bring different cultures together. It would be very hard for someone who holds to Exclusive Psalmody and doctrines of Degrees of Separation in some areas to do this.
> 
> I read Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret over 20 years ago. I admired what he did. He overcame ego by becoming something he wasn't. He took on to himself aspects of the Chinese Culture so that he could bring some to Christ. He seems to have taken on Paul's attitude in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1Co 9:18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
> 
> (1Co 9:19) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
> 
> (1Co 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
> 
> (1Co 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
> 
> (1Co 9:22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
> 
> (1Co 9:23) And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one commonality that we all share in this world cross culturally is sin. It is the curse of the Covenant of Works that we have all failed in and have inherited by Adam. It isn't a White, Black, Yellow, or Red thing.
> 
> I went out to evangelize outside a night club one night. It happened to be a night where the black culture was congregating to party. This place accomodated all venues. I started sharing with some of the dudes in the parking lot and someone started to attack me because I was white. When I mentioned that it wasn't a white thing that we all had to deal with our imperfections and sin before a perfectly Holy and Good God the scenerio changed. We are all naked in his sight and have the same problem. I gained an audience at that time with listening ears. Another thing that these guys saw was that I wasn't out to gain anything from them. I wasn't after their money or trying to get them to go to my church necessarly. I was just out sharing the Gospel of Christ with no strings attached. That is something that most people look at when they look at someone invading their space. And it was something that Paul knew. In fact I believe that is why he didn't live off the gospel as he mentions in the previous verses in 1 Corinthians 9. He didn't want to hinder the message as he went to the various cultures to share Christ. But he also says that it is right for a minister to live off of the gospel.
> 
> Just some thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Be Encouraged,
Click to expand...


Randy, all Glory to God  My husband was the "crazy white guy" that did street ministry in E. St. Louis and North St. Louis. I will say that personal street ministry is different than starting a church. I will not say things are impossible, for we know that all things are possible with God. But I will say that if a group (PCA in this case) feels it's more practical to open some doors in this way first (black ministers), then should we deride them for trying to reach out people that are lost? We aren't speaking of Christian people that see things as we do. This is just ONE method...just as we should exclude other possibilities, we probably should not exclude this one either.


Hermonta, some people have acted as though our family lives in some kind of alternate universe...so yes, total lack of understanding, or rather refusal to try to understand, does happen.


----------



## BJClark

SemperEruditio & KC




> If you're ever in the Jacksonville/St. Augustine Area, I hope you'll look me up. We'll go worship the Lord together.





Where about's are you at in the area?



> J-ville?! Yeah that'll work. My out-laws live there, so now I have an excuse to visit.



And where about's in the area does your family live?


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

LadyFlynt said:


> Randy, all Glory to God  My husband was the "crazy white guy" that did street ministry in E. St. Louis and North St. Louis. I will say that personal street ministry is different than starting a church. I will not say things are impossible, for we know that all things are possible with God. But I will say that if a group (PCA in this case) feels it's more practical to open some doors in this way first (black ministers), then should we deride them for trying to reach out people that are lost? We aren't speaking of Christian people that see things as we do. This is just ONE method...just as we should exclude other possibilities, we probably should not exclude this one either.
> 
> 
> Hermonta, some people have acted as though our family lives in some kind of alternate universe...so yes, total lack of understanding, or rather refusal to try to understand, does happen.



I think the way things are approached does matter. Opening doors is laudible. Different cultures and ethnic backgrounds are all protective of their commonalities. So when we attempt to make way into them methodology might matter. I personally do think having someone from a cultural background of the same does matter. But you also must remember that just because some one is of a particular skin color doesn't make them necessarily fit the description. A black African will not necessarily be welcomed in our black culture as a Black American might not be welcomed in a Black African culture. Even over in Africa the Blacks don't culturally mix well with each other. So there has to be a starting point no matter what the ethnic background is. That starting point will vary from person to person as well as from culture to culture. Finding the starting point is the difficult part whether it be philisophical, theological, or just culturally. Maybe it will have to be all three. 

I am all for opening doors as long as it doesn't violate truth or conscience. Some people because of conscience will not be able to invade certain cultures. That is just a fact.


----------



## LadyFlynt

PuritanCovenanter said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Randy, all Glory to God  My husband was the "crazy white guy" that did street ministry in E. St. Louis and North St. Louis. I will say that personal street ministry is different than starting a church. I will not say things are impossible, for we know that all things are possible with God. But I will say that if a group (PCA in this case) feels it's more practical to open some doors in this way first (black ministers), then should we deride them for trying to reach out people that are lost? We aren't speaking of Christian people that see things as we do. This is just ONE method...just as we should exclude other possibilities, we probably should not exclude this one either.
> 
> 
> Hermonta, some people have acted as though our family lives in some kind of alternate universe...so yes, total lack of understanding, or rather refusal to try to understand, does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the way things are approached does matter. Opening doors is laudible. Different cultures and ethnic backgrounds are all protective of their commonalities. So when we attempt to make way into them methodology might matter. I personally do think having someone from a cultural background of the same does matter. But you also must remember that just because some one is of a particular skin color doesn't make them necessarily fit the description. A black African will not necessarily be welcomed in our black culture as a Black American might not be welcomed in a Black African culture. Even over in Africa the Blacks don't culturally mix well with each other. So there has to be a starting point no matter what the ethnic background is. That starting point will vary from person to person as well as from culture to culture. Finding the starting point is the difficult part whether it be philisophical, theological, or just culturally. Maybe it will have to be all three.
> 
> I am all for opening doors as long as it doesn't violate truth or conscience. Some people because of conscience will not be able to invade certain cultures. That is just a fact.
Click to expand...


I agree, I also believe that it's more about culture than ethnicity. Sometimes though, the two are closely related...not always.


----------



## SemperEruditio

BJClark said:


> SemperEruditio & KC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-ville?! Yeah that'll work. My out-laws live there, so now I have an excuse to visit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And where about's in the area does your family live?
Click to expand...


Atlantic Beach somewhere? You there too?


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## AThornquist

I just want to say that there has been some good dialogue in this thread and a lot of points worth thinking deeply about. Thank you.

... Mixing cultures can be a tedious thing if done without a loving and flexible heart. Many black churches (for example) tend to march to the beat of their own drummers.  Unfortunately, not a single white church can even keep a beat of their own. Regardless, I believe that in Christ we can bring glory to God in unity. I pray for it, I pray for it...


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## BJClark

SemperEruditio;



> Atlantic Beach somewhere? You there too?



Close enough to say I am..though closer to the Westside of Jacksonville/Orange Park area..


----------



## kceaster

BJClark said:


> SemperEruditio & KC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you're ever in the Jacksonville/St. Augustine Area, I hope you'll look me up. We'll go worship the Lord together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where about's are you at in the area?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-ville?! Yeah that'll work. My out-laws live there, so now I have an excuse to visit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And where about's in the area does your family live?
Click to expand...


Bobbi,

I was just in your neck of the woods last night for a bible study. Do you know Billy and Flora Campbell? I think they were once membered at Pinewood. I was at their house. 

We live off of Normandy right across from the Herlong Airport. I work at St. Vincent's down by the St. John's. We moved here in Nov. 06.

Blessings,

KC


----------



## BJClark

kceaster;




> I was just in your neck of the woods last night for a bible study. Do you know Billy and Flora Campbell? I think they were once membered at Pinewood. I was at their house.



No, I don't know them, but looking at the old church directory if they still live where they did..then yes, were out closer in my direction, but they live a little further out.. I live South OP/ North Middleburg near Doctors Inlet..


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## Brian Withnell

This whole discussion is sad.

I teach at a high school in which there is no majority race. Guess what? It has probably the most accepting and peaceful group of students I've ever seen. There are no fights that have occurred there as long as I have taught there (5 years). That is not what I have seen at other schools. The people there are so multicultural that it is amazing ... yet nobody pushes on someone else what they want. There are expressions of culture of individuals, but the whole is not a single culture but a blend. I have seen every which different combination of racial couple you could imagine (not that I would encourage children that are not ready to marry dating ... I'd rather see courtship). All this is without the benefit of everyone being in Christ, right here in suburban Northern Virginia.

I know Wy personally. And while I know his background and his love of Christ, I think some of what he is saying exacerbates the situation. It doesn't help to have the cultures not blend ... that is, each culture remain separate. The best we can have is a "melting pot" instead of fragmentation. If all the cultures would loose the worst of each and retain the best we would all benefit. I've seen it in action in my school, I only wish adults would be just as ready to join in rather than segregate themselves. The church ought not be pushing cultural fragmentation but cultural amalgamation of the best of each, and prune away those portions that are immoral.

I do not think in heaven we will have African-Christians, White-Christian, Asian-Christian and such. I would think we will all be one in Christ and the culture pure. The church ought to strive for it here. (And while I am one of the "frozen chosen", i.e., presbyterian, I would certainly welcome an "Amen brother!" from time to time in my church.


----------



## SemperEruditio

Brian Withnell said:


> This whole discussion is sad.
> 
> I teach at a high school in which there is no majority race. Guess what? It has probably the most accepting and peaceful group of students I've ever seen. There are no fights that have occurred there as long as I have taught there (5 years). That is not what I have seen at other schools. The people there are so multicultural that it is amazing ... yet nobody pushes on someone else what they want. There are expressions of culture of individuals, but the whole is not a single culture but a blend. I have seen every which different combination of racial couple you could imagine (not that I would encourage children that are not ready to marry dating ... I'd rather see courtship). All this is without the benefit of everyone being in Christ, right here in suburban Northern Virginia.


Yes and what do the churches look like on Sunday? What does the congregation at your church look like on Sunday since the school you teach at is multi-cultural? I am a military contractor and have been either in the military or working for the military for 19 years. It is the pinnacle of multi-culture yet I would not assume to claim it is free from any racial tensions or presume to use it as a model.



Brian Withnell said:


> I know Wy personally. And while I know his background and his love of Christ, I think some of what he is saying exacerbates the situation. It doesn't help to have the cultures not blend ... that is, each culture remain separate.


First you are giving Wy to much power. Secondly where did Wy say that the cultures should remain separate?



Brian Withnell said:


> The best we can have is a "melting pot" instead of fragmentation. If all the cultures would loose the worst of each and retain the best we would all benefit. I've seen it in action in my school, I only wish adults would be just as ready to join in rather than segregate themselves. The church ought not be pushing cultural fragmentation but cultural amalgamation of the best of each, and prune away those portions that are immoral.


Then perhaps you missed where Wy makes it clear that the fastest, growing church the majority of people want are the multi-ethnic.



Brian Withnell said:


> I do not think in heaven we will have African-Christians, White-Christian, Asian-Christian and such. I would think we will all be one in Christ and the culture pure. The church ought to strive for it here. (And while I am one of the "frozen chosen", i.e., presbyterian, I would certainly welcome an "Amen brother!" from time to time in my church.


Should I find it interesting that you say _"from time to time..."_? By this should I assume that you do not have a multi-cultural church yet happen to teach at a multi-cultural school? What happens on Sunday to change the demographics?


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## Brian Withnell

SemperEruditio said:


> Yes and what do the churches look like on Sunday? What does the congregation at your church look like on Sunday since the school you teach at is multi-cultural? I am a military contractor and have been either in the military or working for the military for 19 years. It is the pinnacle of multi-culture yet I would not assume to claim it is free from any racial tensions or presume to use it as a model.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Withnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know Wy personally. And while I know his background and his love of Christ, I think some of what he is saying exacerbates the situation. It doesn't help to have the cultures not blend ... that is, each culture remain separate.
> 
> 
> 
> First you are giving Wy to much power. Secondly where did Wy say that the cultures should remain separate?
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Withnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best we can have is a "melting pot" instead of fragmentation. If all the cultures would loose the worst of each and retain the best we would all benefit. I've seen it in action in my school, I only wish adults would be just as ready to join in rather than segregate themselves. The church ought not be pushing cultural fragmentation but cultural amalgamation of the best of each, and prune away those portions that are immoral.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then perhaps you missed where Wy makes it clear that the fastest, growing church the majority of people want are the multi-ethnic.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Withnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think in heaven we will have African-Christians, White-Christian, Asian-Christian and such. I would think we will all be one in Christ and the culture pure. The church ought to strive for it here. (And while I am one of the "frozen chosen", i.e., presbyterian, I would certainly welcome an "Amen brother!" from time to time in my church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should I find it interesting that you say _"from time to time..."_? By this should I assume that you do not have a multi-cultural church yet happen to teach at a multi-cultural school? What happens on Sunday to change the demographics?
Click to expand...


From time to time would be an improvement. I'm not sure why there is so much disparity. While I would like to see people more enthusiastic, I also know that the church I attend is one of the best from a teaching standpoint anywhere. Participation in worship is extreme compared to a lot of churches (responsive reading of scripture is a large part of the service, the classic confessions are recited, the Lord's prayer is done by the congregation every week) which is better (Biblically) than a church in which the congregation could be an after-thought. But even so, it would be good to have the rafters of the church echo with the praise of the saints.

The problem isn't with Wy, but in my view that his position exists. When a church has an "African-American" anything, they have missed the point. I agree with a lot of what he is saying ... and it makes me sad. Sad because I know it can be better, but not as long as we talk about what race people are. I have attended a church that was majority black (while far from my home) and while it was different, I joined in the culture that was there. It did not feel uncomfortable at all, almost completely because I knew they were my brothers and sisters in Christ (I was invited by a friend, and that probably helped as well).

If we teach the brotherhood of believers above everything else, if we treat each other as we would want to be treated, if we become something other than a "hyphenated" American (or whatever country in which we live) then we have a chance. The church ought to be on the forefront of removing the hyphen from our own classifications. I see no reason to hold on to "native" or "English" in my classification of myself, and while I see some rational for "American" my priority and self-identification is Christian. Sometimes "Christian-warrior" or "Christian-servant" as my duties within the body dictate. I would rather not see us separating into "Jew and Greek" all over again. It is unbecoming the church.


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## Theognome

Brian Withnell said:


> This whole discussion is sad.



I agree- and also consider it pathetic as well. I'll post a new thread with my thoughts later.

Theognome


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## Narnian

Go away for a few months and I miss all the fun stuff!

I have known Wy for almost 30 years and have supported his ministries since their inception. (which reminds me, I think I am overdue for sending in my support). He was one of my elders and a friend. He gave up a promising career at IBM to go to seminaryand spent many years at a multi-cultural church in Baltimore (New Song) including as co-pastor with a white pastor (Steve Smallman, Jr.).

He did express some discomfort at the concept of an "African-American" ministry and almost didn't take the position - but he also realized the need to bring the truth of the reformed faith to the black community and that this was an opportunity to plant many new PCA churches where they are rarely planted.

Unfortunately race does play a factor in how people percieve us no matter what race we are. But if we truely believe the reformed faith is the truth it will be the best hammer to knock down barriers.


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## he beholds

Brian, then what do we think about my church, which is in a city with more blacks than whites, that is still a white church?
Facts are facts: my church does not look like her city. 
We should be asking why. We should be willing to agree that this is a problem. My church is probably the best in our city, which means that black people who aren't there, but are going somewhere, are not going to the best. Why? 

The problem isn't that our church is too white--it's that it isn't black enough. 

I had a black friend in college (anecdotal evidence, I know) who told me that I never have to think about going into a store, or meeting a new person, or going to a party, and wonder if people will automatically hate me/be afraid of me/be suspicious of me, etc. 

And that is 100% true. I am not saying that the converse is always true for black people everywhere--but it is NEVER true for me. I *never* think at all, "will people stare?"


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## Brian Withnell

Narnian said:


> Go away for a few months and I miss all the fun stuff!
> 
> I have known Wy for almost 30 years and have supported his ministries since their inception. (which reminds me, I think I am overdue for sending in my support). He was one of my elders and a friend. He gave up a promising career at IBM to go to seminaryand spent many years at a multi-cultural church in Baltimore (New Song) including as co-pastor with a white pastor (Steve Smallman, Jr.).
> 
> He did express some discomfort at the concept of an "African-American" ministry and almost didn't take the position - but he also realized the need to bring the truth of the reformed faith to the black community and that this was an opportunity to plant many new PCA churches where they are rarely planted.
> 
> Unfortunately race does play a factor in how people percieve us no matter what race we are. But if we truely believe the reformed faith is the truth it will be the best hammer to knock down barriers.



I remember his hesitation, and I thought he made the wrong choice. I've only known him for about 20 years (at least I think that is about the right time frame), and I pray for him regularly. I remember his being at Reston Pres. and deciding to move to Baltimore for the ministry there, and I thought it would be a good thing at the time. I remember his moving into the present position and thinking that the position shouldn't exist (much like what I remember his letter saying). The pragmatism of the idea is what I felt was just plain wrong. While I could not have voiced the opinion then, I think what I would call it now is letting go of the bedrock of the theology of unity for the pragmatism of outreach. Evangelism is important only if it is the true gospel that we preach. If we water down the gospel, then perhaps it would be better carried forward by others that will not compromise the unity of the church. <sigh>

Ultimately, I rest on the sovereignty of God's election that those who are chosen will be saved, even if the means will not include me. The vessel that I (and everyone else) is will have an impact for God's gospel, and the Lord will save those whom he has chosen. So I obey the command to share the gospel and trust God will use it. When I see the same of others, I have to trust God as well. Walking by faith means that my trust is in God, not my ability to be pure in sharing. I pray to that end, and pray also that I will honor God in what I do, knowing all the while the only acceptance I have before the Father is through the merit of the son.

Are we all not broken vessels? Are we all not jars of clay? The treasure we carry is beyond us ... yet God sees fit to use even me.

-----Added 6/14/2009 at 09:45:17 EST-----



he beholds said:


> Brian, then what do we think about my church, which is in a city with more blacks than whites, that is still a white church?
> Facts are facts: my church does not look like her city.
> We should be asking why. We should be willing to agree that this is a problem. My church is probably the best in our city, which means that black people who aren't there, but are going somewhere, are not going to the best. Why?
> 
> The problem isn't that our church is too white--it's that it isn't black enough.
> 
> I had a black friend in college (anecdotal evidence, I know) who told me that I never have to think about going into a store, or meeting a new person, or going to a party, and wonder if people will automatically hate me/be afraid of me/be suspicious of me, etc.
> 
> And that is 100% true. I am not saying that the converse is always true for black people everywhere--but it is NEVER true for me. I *never* think at all, "will people stare?"



Jessi, I'm not sure what to think. Do you share with your neighbors the truth of Christ? Do the other members of your church? If a black person walked into your church and someone was bigoted toward them, would they face discipline from the church, be forced to apologize to the same public level of the bigotry? I know of a "black church" in the midst of a white community where I grew up, and I always wondered why they did not join the churches that were already there but instead setup their own.

Christ is not divided so why is the church? If there are doctrinal differences (what is believed is different) then I can see it. But it would seem strange indeed if race controlled doctrine.

As to never thinking if you would be hated, perhaps you have never experienced reverse discrimination. I can remember the first time I was ever in a crowd of black people (I was in 4th grade) and another little 4th grader came up to me and kicked me. The other children around me said things to me that made me realize they didn't like me, and made me afraid (being threatened for being white was not fun). So I do have not only a concept of wondering if being in a group of another race will cause me to be hated, but have first hand experience of it happening. Just as their are ignorant hateful white people, there are ignorant hateful black people. The gospel of Christ is the only hope for either group, and both groups must repent, accept the image of God in the other, and walk in newness of life. While you may never have moved into a position of being in an extreme minority, there are plenty of places that white people (who don't wish to die) should not go (and not necessarily into black neighborhoods).

With the entire race represented in the spread of the gospel, we (the church) ought to be the most culturally mixed. We should be the example to the rest of the world that says race is unimportant. Yet perhaps churches like your church is not being the light on a hill that it ought (unless it is a very local congregation and the neighborhood is homogeneous).


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## he beholds

Brian Withnell said:


> Jessi, I'm not sure what to think. Do you share with your neighbors the truth of Christ? Do the other members of your church? If a black person walked into your church and someone was bigoted toward them, would they face discipline from the church, be forced to apologize to the same public level of the bigotry? I know of a "black church" in the midst of a white community where I grew up, and I always wondered why they did not join the churches that were already there but instead setup their own.
> 
> Well, I don't live in the city, but the country, so my neighborhood isn't quite the same as the city. But I don't know my neighbors, so no, I don't share the gospel with them
> No one at all in our whole church, I am confident, would be bigoted toward a black person. That isn't the issue. We do have a couple black families, and they are loved the same as the white families. Though if there were an incident, of course there would be church discipline. The issue is: why are Reformed churches white, even in areas that are not? I am not saying that every church needs to have X amount of people from every culture--I am saying that the church should match the demographics surrounding her. My church may be a little off, since most of the people drive in from out of the city to attend (like we do). But not everybody and I don't think the fault is my church, but OUR practices. Our=my denomination and beyond.
> 
> 
> Christ is not divided so why is the church? If there are doctrinal differences (what is believed is different) then I can see it. But it would seem strange indeed if race controlled doctrine.
> 
> I think that is the point of this thread: Reformed Churches should not be white churches, and that is what MANY of us see.
> 
> As to never thinking if you would be hated, perhaps you have never experienced reverse discrimination. I can remember the first time I was ever in a crowd of black people (I was in 4th grade) and another little 4th grader came up to me and kicked me. The other children around me said things to me that made me realize they didn't like me, and made me afraid (being threatened for being white was not fun). So I do have not only a concept of wondering if being in a group of another race will cause me to be hated, but have first hand experience of it happening. Just as their are ignorant hateful white people, there are ignorant hateful black people. The gospel of Christ is the only hope for either group, and both groups must repent, accept the image of God in the other, and walk in newness of life. While you may never have moved into a position of being in an extreme minority, there are plenty of places that white people (who don't wish to die) should not go (and not necessarily into black neighborhoods).
> 
> Honestly, I have been in the minority, and even then, never felt that I would be hated! Call it ignorance, arrogance, or pride, but I assumed that I would fit in fine, and I did. I am speaking of time spent in the Dominican Republic, Mexico, and Jamaica. (None of which were touristy parts.) If I were to walk through a very black part of a city, then I would feel threatened, but I recognize this as my own sin and fear and this is because I (possible wrongly) assume the _place_ is dangerous, and not the people. If I walked into a store that was owned by a black person, I would not be afraid of being disliked or afraid of being mistrusted. I cannot say the same in an opposite situation for my friend. Regardless of the white storeowners' thoughts, my black friend would have to wonder if she were being watched.
> 
> 
> 
> With the entire race represented in the spread of the gospel, we (the church) ought to be the most culturally mixed. We should be the example to the rest of the world that says race is unimportant. Yet perhaps churches like your church is not being the light on a hill that it ought (unless it is a very local congregation and the neighborhood is homogeneous).



EXACTLY!!! And the fact of the matter is, at least in the U.S. and in Reformed congregations--we are not that example!!! I do not think there is any inherent difference between any races at all. So I don't think that there is something white about the truth--I just think that we let the WASP culture be the church culture, and that is an injustice to the truth--which is beyond culture.

Blessings♥


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## Montanablue

> EXACTLY!!! And the fact of the matter is, at least in the U.S. and in Reformed congregations--we are not that example!!! I do not think there is any inherent difference between any races at all. So I don't think that there is something white about the truth--I just think that we let the WASP culture be the church culture, and that is an injustice to the truth--which is beyond culture.



I think you hit the nail on the head here when you talk about WASP culture. I often think this is more of a cultural issue than a "racial" one. One of my closest friends is African American. We grew up in very similar neighborhoods and cultures. We have a lot in common, and, aside from the stares that she gets when she walks into a church full of white people, she generally feels comfortable attending churches which are majority white. (In fact, she is a member of a PCA church that only has a few other black families). I think (and I know she would agree) that she is so comfortable because even though she has brown skin, she basically grew up in the same WASP culture that I did. In fact, we've joked before that she's more WASPy than me!

A few years ago, we visited a church in Atlanta together. It was what I guess one could call a "black" church. Even though the sermon was doctrinally very good - and similar to what we would have received at our own churches in terms of content - the service and worship style was SO different. And I'll freely admit that I felt very out of place and a little uncomfortable. I didn't really know what to do or how to conduct myself. I would imagine that many of that church's members would have felt similarly uncomfortable if they had attended my church. 

All that to say that I don't think we should let the dominant culture completely rule over the church service. Of course, sermon and worship content needs to stay scriptural and confessional, but why not try to reflect the cultural demographics of our cities? As you say, truth supersedes culture. Why purposely exclude one or more cultures just because our culture happens to control the church?


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## Narnian

Brian Withnell said:


> I remember his hesitation, and I thought he made the wrong choice. I've only known him for about 20 years (at least I think that is about the right time frame), and I pray for him regularly. I remember his being at Reston Pres. and deciding to move to Baltimore for the ministry there, and I thought it would be a good thing at the time. I remember his moving into the present position and thinking that the position shouldn't exist (much like what I remember his letter saying). The pragmatism of the idea is what I felt was just plain wrong. While I could not have voiced the opinion then, I think what I would call it now is letting go of the bedrock of the theology of unity for the pragmatism of outreach. Evangelism is important only if it is the true gospel that we preach. If we water down the gospel, then perhaps it would be better carried forward by others that will not compromise the unity of the church. <sigh>
> 
> Ultimately, I rest on the sovereignty of God's election that those who are chosen will be saved, even if the means will not include me. The vessel that I (and everyone else) is will have an impact for God's gospel, and the Lord will save those whom he has chosen. So I obey the command to share the gospel and trust God will use it. When I see the same of others, I have to trust God as well. Walking by faith means that my trust is in God, not my ability to be pure in sharing. I pray to that end, and pray also that I will honor God in what I do, knowing all the while the only acceptance I have before the Father is through the merit of the son.
> 
> Are we all not broken vessels? Are we all not jars of clay? The treasure we carry is beyond us ... yet God sees fit to use even me.



I agree with much of what you say - but I do not see your argument then - how is Wy watering down the gospel? On the contrary it is the false teachings he is trying to counter in the black community by training up black pastors. No different from training up Indian pastors in India, Chinese pastors in China, etc. Paul in 1 Cor 9 points out the gospel can be presented in culturally relative ways that do not diminish the gospel.


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