# Abrahams Bosom



## Scott Bushey (Sep 7, 2005)

Randy,
Earlier in the thread, you mentioned 'Abrahams Bosom". Can you explain to me what this means in light of what we have already discussed?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Randy,
> Earlier in the thread, you mentioned 'Abrahams Bosom". Can you explain to me what this means in light of what we have already discussed?



It is the place where Jesus said a departed saints soul went after he died. It wasn't a place of punishment. This saint went there before Christ literally paid the price for all of the elects sin. I wouldn't speculate to much about this since it is a parable. The point of the parable is that the man who lapped up luxury and didn't care about the poor sick man is now suffering while the poor sick Lazurus is now enjoying his reward. Another point of the parable is that even if one would return from the dead with incredible proof unrepentant sinners wouldn't listen to him just like they won't listen to the prophets and word around them. My point was that Old Testament saints went to be with the Lord. He had a place in God's presence even before Christ paid the penalty in actual time.


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## Texas Aggie (Sep 8, 2005)

Good discussion on this issue.

BTW, I do not see the story of Abraham's Bosom as a parable.... I think it was an actual event and I think it details the underworld for the reader. If it is a parable, it is the only parable where Jesus uses a name. He knows His sheep by name and Lazarus belonged to Him.

I believe this was an actual place and an actual event that occurred between Lazarus and the rich man. Not a parable.


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## JonathanHunt (Sep 8, 2005)

Matt

So it is possible to speak to someone in Heaven when you are in Hell?

JH


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## Texas Aggie (Sep 8, 2005)

Jonathan,

I do not think they were in heaven, I think they were in a chamber in the underworld. Abraham's bosom was a chamber separated from hell by the great gulf fix. I believe that when Christ descended into the underworld, He went to Abraham's Bosom.... not hell.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Good discussion on this issue.
> 
> BTW, I do not see the story of Abraham's Bosom as a parable.... I think it was an actual event and I think it details the underworld for the reader. If it is a parable, it is the only parable where Jesus uses a name. He knows His sheep by name and Lazarus belonged to Him.
> ...



Okay.... I am not sure it is an actual event The communication between Abraham and the Rich man seems to be troublesome to me as an actual event. I am not so sure that the two places are in close enough proximity spiritually so that communication can be done as it is perceived in this passage. I am sure it expresses reality.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Jonathan,
> 
> I do not think they were in heaven, I think they were in a chamber in the underworld. Abraham's bosom was a chamber separated from hell by the great gulf fix. I believe that when Christ descended into the underworld, He went to Abraham's Bosom.... not hell.



I am reading and responding as I go. I believe this is assumption on your part. Do you see any evidence for this?


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## Texas Aggie (Sep 8, 2005)

Randy,

I tend to believe this is an actual event as well as an actual place. The conversation between the two does not bother me. Here is my perspective on the issue:

I believe this is a fascinating event that occurred and I suppose it could be related to Christ's resurrection from the underworld (three days and three nights). The question may rest with the idea that Christ's venture to the underworld stopped at Abraham's Bosom and never crossed the "great gulf fixed" into hell.

I am under the impression that many Old Testament saints were kept in Abraham's Bosom as indicated in Luke 16:19-31 and I believe they were resurrected and appeared to many shortly after Christ's resurrection (see Matthew 27:53). This may be part of leading captivity captive.

I am not sure why Matthew is so brief on this subject or why the scripture does not expand on this event. I tend to believe that the word of God can be brief on many areas that are meant to be talked about and questioned.... possibly because He intends for us to research the topic which may point to another truth (I don't know). Needless to say, the event is interesting and I believe it happened.

As for me, I do not think that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable or fable used by Jesus. I say this only because if it is a parable, it is the only parable ever that Jesus uses a specific name: Lazarus. With this said, I think that Lazarus was an actual person and Abraham´s bosom was an actual place located in the underworld. If this is viewed as a parable, Abraham´s bosom could be written off as a fictitious location.

I also believe that Christ calls His people by name"¦ that´s why he doesn´t mention the rich man´s name. I believe the Old Testament saints were kept separate in the underworld, away from "œHades" were the rich man was sent. I read this passage literally in that there was in fact a "œgreat gulf fix" separating these two areas of the underworld. This "œgreat gulf fix" may also be the "œbottomless pit." 

The rich man was able to lift his eyes in Hades (hell) and recognized Abraham who was with Lazarus. Looks like it was hot and uncomfortable were the rich man was and comfortable were Lazarus and Abraham were.

As far as Jesus going to hell: Psalm 16 does make mention of the saints that are in the earth (Psalm 16:3) and "œSheol" is the Hebrew word for hell in verse 10. Sheol can be translated: depth, abyss, the realm of dead people, the world of the dead, the grave, the pit, the underworld. Both good men (Gen 37:35) and evil men (Num 16:30) go there.

I believe that Sheol in verse 10 refers to the entire underworld. I believe Abraham´s bosom is a location in Sheol, so is "œthe bottomless pit," "œHades," "œTartarus" (Jude 6, II Peter 2:4) as well as "œGehenna" (Matt 25:44, Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10 & Rev 14:15).

I think the underworld itself had separate compartments. On the very day of His death, Jesus promised paradise to the thief on the cross (Luke 24:43). I do not believe Jesus and the thief descended into the compartment were the rich man was (Hades)"¦ it doesn´t sound like paradise. I do believe Christ went into the underworld (Sheol), but not into the chamber of tormented souls waiting for final judgment.

The saints simply went to Sheol as well as the bad. Once there I can only assume from the scriptures mentioned above, they went to their perspective holding pens. I believe Jesus gave us a little insight to the structure of the underworld with Luke 16. Peter quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2. The Greek word used is Hades; however it is referring to the Hebrew text which uses the word Sheol in Psalm 16.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 8, 2005)

TA,

In reguard to Christ using a name, Lazarus is acutally Eleazar. It can have reference in the passage because Eleazar means one whom God helps. That is significant in the fact that the Rich man didn't help the poor sick man but God has rewarded and helped the man. 

As far as Christ going to sheol he could go anywhere He pleased. Flames wouldn't bother him just as they didn't bother the three that King Neb threw into the furnace. (which I might add that Christ was probably the one with them in the blaze). 

If I am not mistaken I read others who didn't believe this to be an actual account. In his book 'Death and the Afterlife' William Hendrickson thought it to be unlikely that this was an actual account. I don't have the book any longer. Maybe someone can reference it for me. In my rememberance (which isn't always the best) Dr. Hendricson gave a good account of why he didn't believe it to be an actual event that happened. Please help us if any one has the book.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## blhowes (Sep 8, 2005)

Here's an interesting article called The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man that Tony Warren wrote. He makes some good (in my opinion) points in support of his contention that its a parable.


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## JonathanHunt (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm glad this got made into a thread of its own. Good going Mods.

I'm reading through and thinking through. I'm currently on the 'parable' side of the fence.

JH


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## Anton Bruckner (Sep 13, 2005)

So you are saying that Jesus to illustrate a truth, constructed this parable based on a false theology of the afterlife? That doesn't make any sense and would strike me as irresponsible.

Here is what Josephus said, whilst being trapped in a cave in Gamala after the Romans took the City.

No, certainly, but a most unmanly one; as I should esteem that pilot to be an arrant coward, who, out of fear of a storm, should sink his ship of his own accord. Now self-murder is a crime most remote from the common nature of all animals, and an instance of impiety against God our Creator; nor indeed is there any animal that dies by its own contrivance, or by its own means, for the desire of life is a law engraven in them all; on which account we deem those that openly take it away from us to be our enemies, and those that do it by treachery are punished for so doing. And do not you think that God is very angry when a man does injury to what he hath bestowed on him? For from him it is that we have received our being, and we ought to leave it to his disposal to take that being away from us.* The bodies of all men are indeed mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies.* Besides, if any one destroys or abuses a depositum he hath received from a mere man, he is esteemed a wicked and perfidious person; but then if any one cast out of his body this Divine depositum, can we imagine that he who is thereby affronted does not know of it? (War of the Jews. Book 3 Chap 8.5)

And I haven't seen anywhere, the idea tht Josephus was Hellenistic by any shot of the imagination.

[Edited on 9-13-2005 by Slippery]


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