# Article on Tim Keller in Christianity Today



## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 6, 2009)

Here's the link:

How Tim Keller Found Manhattan | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction


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## lynnie (Jun 6, 2009)

Thank you so much! Isn't it great to see churches grow because the lost get saved, and not just because the sheep switch to a new pasture?


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## turmeric (Jun 6, 2009)

Interesting, thanks.


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## jogri17 (Jun 6, 2009)

I like Keller alot, however I do think he has a bit of an over emphesis on the city. I'm not saying he's completely wrong but I don't think there is value in suburban ecclestical ministry as well. That being said I live in the 7th biggest city in Canada and hope to attend seminary in the second (with some training at Puritan Reformed)


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## Herald (Jun 6, 2009)

I found this comment interesting:



> The Kellers stick to a few rules. They never talk about politics. _Tim always preaches with a non-Christian audience in mind_, not merely avoiding offense, but exploring the text to find its good news for unbelievers as well as believers. The church emphasizes excellence in music and art, to the point of paying their musicians well (though not union scale). And it calls people to love and bless the city. It isn't an appeal based on guilt toward a poor, lost community.



How are the sheep adequately feed at Redeemer? I'm not making a point, simply asking a question.


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## ChristianTrader (Jun 6, 2009)

Herald said:


> I found this comment interesting:
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It seems to simply say that the unbeliever is not ignored when the message is prepared, not that the believer is not properly fed.

CT


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 6, 2009)

Herald said:


> I found this comment interesting:
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Yes.


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 6, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Herald said:
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> > I found this comment interesting:
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Mason, I think he said "How are", not "Are they" 

Though I have no problem with politics being mentioned, I don't believe it's required to adequately feed the people.


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## TaylorOtwell (Jun 6, 2009)

Having listened to quite a few of Keller's series and sermons, I would say believers at Redeemer must be some of the most well fed sheep in the church. Keller's sermons convict me deeply, yet encourage me with God's amazing grace.


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## Edward (Jun 6, 2009)

Herald said:


> I found this comment interesting:
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I think you highlighted the wrong thing. Of greater concern is "_ not merely avoiding offense, but exploring the text to find its good news for unbelievers as well as believers._" The Gospel is an offense to non-believers, and there shouldn't be a whole lot of good news for those who reject it.


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## CharlieJ (Jun 6, 2009)

Edward said:


> I think you highlighted the wrong thing. Of greater concern is "_ not merely avoiding offense, but exploring the text to find its good news for unbelievers as well as believers._" The Gospel is an offense to non-believers, and there shouldn't be a whole lot of good news for those who reject it.



I believe you're reading into the article a meaning that isn't there. Keller isn't preaching that there is good news for remaining in unbelief. He has a "gospel-centered" homiletic that concentrates on preaching in light of the gospel - how the gospel applies both evangelistically (to unbelievers) and didactically (to believers). In other words, Keller doesn't have to preach from John 3:16 to preach a "gospel" message.


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## Herald (Jun 6, 2009)

I appreciate all the responses. I really don't know a lot about Keller, other than what I've gleaned on the PB. I do know he has admirers and detractors. I'm just collecting data at this point.


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## Edward (Jun 6, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> Edward said:
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> 
> > I think you highlighted the wrong thing. Of greater concern is "_ not merely avoiding offense, but exploring the text to find its good news for unbelievers as well as believers._" The Gospel is an offense to non-believers, and there shouldn't be a whole lot of good news for those who reject it.
> ...



Starting from a point that this isn't Keller saying that he's doing this, it's the writer, it may not be fair to indict Keller on this issue; striving to avoid offense suggests a lukewarm approach, and going beyond that to give good news to unbelievers looks like something other that an evangelistic sermon to me.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 6, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
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> > Herald said:
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Yep, I misread the question - thanks for the correction!

The answer is through sermons, which are very meaty, but also through the fellowship group curriculum, which provides much more in-depth and penetrating insight on Scripture.


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## Robbie Schmidtberger (Jun 18, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> LadyFlynt said:
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## PresbyDane (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for sharing


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 18, 2009)

Herald said:


> I found this comment interesting:
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I think this is one strong point for Keller's preaching. He explains this more in his church planting manual. But his preaching philosophy is, if you preach as if unbelievers are there, then eventually they will be. The Christians will say, "my unbelieving friend needs to hear this" and will invite them to come and hear the gospel. The bonus side of this emphasis, is that many Christians wrestle with the same cultural problems, objections, and idols that unbelievers do. And in preaching this way, Christians are helped through those issues, and are equipped to better explain the gospel to unbelievers themselves. 

There's other issues with Keller that I can't agree, but on that point I think he is very wise. The only problem I can see with it, is that you have to keep your language and terminology more basic to accommodate the unbeliever. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Both the unbeliever and believer need that kind of teaching. But when you want to get deeper into the Scriptures, you need to start using more precise language and delve into church history and theology. The only way you will be able to do that is through supplementing with a more indepth Sunday School or Bible study. That seems to be the pattern Redeemer follows.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jun 18, 2009)

Herald said:


> The Kellers stick to a few rules. They never talk about politics. _Tim always preaches with a non-Christian audience in mind_, not merely avoiding offense, but exploring the text to find its good news for unbelievers as well as believers. The church emphasizes excellence in music and art, to the point of *paying their musicians well* (though not union scale). And it calls people to love and bless the city. It isn't an appeal based on guilt toward a poor, lost community.



We're a small suburban church, so the part that struck me as odd was the paying of musicians. Is this the norm in larger churches? i've heard of larger churches having a music director on staff, but aren't the musicians normally "volunteers?" Are the musicians members of the church, or at least Christians?


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## Robbie Schmidtberger (Jun 18, 2009)

Some churches hire unbelievers to play music to accompany singing. Such churches argue that it is an expression of outreach while recognizing common grace (God gifted such individuals so lets reach them through that.) 

The church I am a member of (200 strong) only has one pastor, but as far as humanly possible, will never be short of musicians. In each worship service there are at least 10 different people utilizing their gifts for corporate worship. Every Sunday there is a shift in the rotation. 

Some churches, because of their rich biblical theology of worship and structured liturgy, hire one to be a pastor whose duties are to lead worship teams, teach on theology, write music and structure the liturgy for that Lord's day.


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## BJClark (Jun 18, 2009)

Puritan Sailor;



> The only way you will be able to do that is through supplementing with a more indepth Sunday School or Bible study. That seems to be the pattern Redeemer follows.



Exactly, that is where those things should be happening..in Sunday School or other such Church training classes/small groups and such..not always from the pulpit.


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## CharlieJ (Jun 18, 2009)

ericfromcowtown said:


> We're a small suburban church, so the part that struck me as odd was the paying of musicians. Is this the norm in larger churches? i've heard of larger churches having a music director on staff, but aren't the musicians normally "volunteers?" Are the musicians members of the church, or at least Christians?



I believe this is an eccentricity at Redeemer that (I hope) will not significantly impact other churches. I used to attend a large ~1400 Fundamentalist church that had a 60-person choir/orchestra plus brass and percussion. All volunteers from the church under the direction of a trained conductor who was also an ordained pastor. If you're going to go the choir/orchestra route, I think that's how you should go.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill (Herald),

When I was at Redeemer ('97 - '02) I was well fed, as the depth of the Gospel (really, the Person and work of Christ) were preached as I had never heard them before. This vision of Christ and His gospel is such it sustains me (and my wife) through manifold trials. We continue to listen to his sermons.

Tim speaks to both believer and nonbeliever in the sermons (though sometimes to one and sometimes to the other) - it is an unusual ministry.

Here are some free Keller sermons (MP3) from Monergism:

Monergism :: Tim Keller

And here's their full MP3 Library:

Monergism Lecture and Sermon MP3 Library


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## ReformedChapin (Jun 20, 2009)

I have seen Dr Keller speak in several clips in Veritas Forum. He has a great ability to explain (dumb down) philosophical and biblical messages so that the layman both christian and non-christian can understand. Even in doing so, the message isn't lost. I wish in a lot of reformed churches I attend there was similar messages, the sheep there would be a lot better fed.


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## Scott1 (Jun 20, 2009)

Mr. Keller is a wonderfully gifted teacher and writer. He is an asset to our denomination. We have benefited from his teaching over the years.

In recent years he has gained a lot of recognition, influence and success (such as his book, _The Reason for God_). Quietly there has been more of a trend of women running the services and entertainment type worship, away from the polity and confession of his denomination. It may not even be apparent just how far this has come in the last few years, but God is making it known now such as with the recent complaint filed regarding polity and the vows to uphold it.

So, God is testing this now. He is calling it out now.

We really need to pray for this dear brother. The temptations of power and success are great, and it's easy to be critical of them from the outside looking in. Sin is self-deceiving, and that goes for all of us. We all can think it is about us, it is a root sin for all of us.

Now we shall see how he responds as he is being challenged toward the end of the peace and purity of the household of faith.

That will demonstrate his love of God and love of the brethren far more than the success of his speaking and publishing or the size of his following.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 20, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Mr. Keller is a wonderfully gifted teacher and writer. He is an asset to our denomination. We have benefited from his teaching over the years.
> 
> In recent years he has gained a lot of recognition, influence and success (such as his book, _The Reason for God_). *Quietly there has been more of a trend of women running the services and entertainment type worship, away from the polity and confession of his denomination.* It may not even be apparent just how far this has come in the last few years, but God is making it known now such as with the recent complaint filed regarding polity and the vows to uphold it.
> 
> ...



Scott,

I understand the disagreement over the deaconess issue and to a certain degree the role of women in the church - I think that is a valid criticism. However, women don't "run the services" at Redeemer - every service is clearly led by an ordained man. Women don't preach or teach during the services. Finally, the worship at Redeemer is anything but "entertainment." I would say the services at Redeemer are more conservative and traditional than 85% of the PCA churches today. Again, I understand the argument against his position on female deaconesses, but I don't think we should criticize Dr. Keller (or anyone else) without factual support - attending a single worship service would pretty clearly demonstrate that what you say above is incorrect.


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## KMK (Jun 20, 2009)

The idea of preaching to unbelievers as well as believers is not a new idea. According to William Perkins, there are actually 6 types of hearers, not just two. 'Ignorant and Unteachable', 'Teachable Yet Ignorant', Knowledgeable Yet Prideful', 'Humble', 'Faithful', and 'Fallen Away'. The Puritans believed that all of these types should be addressed on a regular basis and this was largely done by Sermon application.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 20, 2009)

Mason,
I'm curious what Redeemer's worship service is like. How do you arrive at that percentage?


ColdSilverMoon said:


> Scott,
> 
> I understand the disagreement over the deaconess issue and to a certain degree the role of women in the church - I think that is a valid criticism. However, women don't "run the services" at Redeemer - every service is clearly led by an ordained man. Women don't preach or teach during the services. Finally, the worship at Redeemer is anything but "entertainment." *I would say the services at Redeemer are more conservative and traditional than 85% of the PCA churches today. *Again, I understand the argument against his position on female deaconesses, but I don't think we should criticize Dr. Keller (or anyone else) without factual support - attending a single worship service would pretty clearly demonstrate that what you say above is incorrect.


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## Scott1 (Jun 20, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Keller is a wonderfully gifted teacher and writer. He is an asset to our denomination. We have benefited from his teaching over the years.
> ...



Thanks, Mason.

Glad you see some validity in the concern.

Let me be specific, because I do want to be clear and as favorable and charitable as I can because I really do respect Mr. Keller and seek out attending when in the city.

My point is not that the formal 25 minute sermon is being done by a woman or that the whole of the service is entertaining. But compared to our visits years ago, it seems to be becoming quite different. Maybe this has been gradual. Consider these recent things I observed within the past 2 years:

1) The Deacon list in the bulletin contained no men names (although a couple might be either male or female), but possibly not one man, not one
2) The "head of the Diaconate" the contact for the Deacons was listed as a woman (Jenny?)
3) The woman who sang a solo in the "jazz" service we went to, we were told was not a Christian, that nonbelievers were hired to lead and play music
4) The song was very worldly and really bothered my wife. It seemed focused on the singer, no discernible Christian lyrics. She told me it felt like being in a night club.
5) All the formal Scripture reading was done by women during the service
6) Women led, at least positionally on stage, 100% of the praise and worship times

The sermon, by Mr. Keller was very, very good. Clear, concise, biblical, even persuasive.

I'm not intending these as mere complaints over style, but I've never seen anything like this in a PCA church before. My last visit there was before I could say was familiar with "the regulative principle." 

There's a problem here, we can't deny it. We do not "go it alone" in a confessional church, that's why we are confessional and connectional.

My prayer is (and I mean that), this will be recognized, and correction can be made before pride sets in.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 20, 2009)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Mason,
> I'm curious what Redeemer's worship service is like. How do you arrive at that percentage?



Chris,

The number is obviously a guess on my part, but an educated one based on the PCA services I've attended over the past few years. In the past year or so I've been to PCA churches in Colorado, Alabama, and Tennessee in addition to New York, and found Redeemer's services to be much more "traditional" than all of these, which has been my experience attending PCA churches across the country over the years. 

I'll list the order of worship including songs tomorrow after the worship service, but in general there are 5 different services with 2 different styles. The 2 morning services are "classical," the 3 evening services are "jazz." The order of worship is basically the same, with the only difference being the style of musical accompaniment, and the doxology is not sung at the evening services. But at both types of service there are 4-5 songs, usually including hymns, Psalms (or other songs directly from Scripture), and a praise song or two. There is responsive reading, corporate confession, corporate prayer, offertory, reading of the Word and the sermon, usually a final song, and finally the benediction. The Lord's Supper is taken on the first Sunday of every month. New members take their vows and baptisms are performed on the 3rd Sunday of every month. The worship is led entirely by a Teaching Elder - songs are led (but not directed) by men and women depending on the service, which basically consists of that person singing the songs with a microphone. 

There is no decoration, no pulpit other than a microphone, no audio-visuals other than the mic. The classical services have an organ player, and usually some combination of trumpet, violin, flute, etc. The evening services have a small jazz ensemble including a piano player, guitar player, bass player, saxophone player and drummer. During the collection of the offering there is occasionally a soloist (though usually not). The Scripture reading, songs, responsive reading, prayer of confession, and upcoming sermon schedule are all in the bulletin. 

I know it's difficult to get a feel for the services unless you're there in person - but there's a general description. Again, I'll post the order of worship for our service tomorrow. That would be a good thread - I'd like to see everyone's order of worship.


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## KMK (Jun 20, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> I know it's difficult to get a feel for the services unless you're there in person - but there's a general description. Again, I'll post the order of worship for our service tomorrow. That would be a good thread - I'd like to see everyone's order of worship.



Here is a recent thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/what-your-order-worship-liturgy-church-you-attend-48967/


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## py3ak (Jun 21, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> I'll list the order of worship including songs tomorrow after the worship service, but in general there are 5 different services with 2 different styles. The 2 morning services are "classical," the 3 evening services are "jazz."



And some of these musicians are paid, unbelieving professionals?

If that's true, I have two problems.

Would we tolerate segregation by anything other than preference? Would it be acceptable to have an "Oriental" service and a "Hispanic" service (barring the obvious question of having services in different languages, of course)? An "old" vs. a "young" service? I understand if space constraints mean that multiple services have to be held (though I think traditionally -as in Ames' _Marrow_- it would be held best to form separate congregations), but it should be done in such a way as to minimize self-segregation among the congregants.

Paid musicians are performing; that renders that part of the service a performance. Performance and worship seem to me like utterly opposed concepts. If I want a performance, I believe NY has a number of venues where one can hear classical music or jazz performed rather competently.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jun 22, 2009)

As promised, here's the order of worship from yesterday, 6 pm "jazz" service:

- Preparation for worship - remarks by TE leading the service
- Hymn - "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name"
- Praise Song - "He is Exalted"
- Praise Song - "He Lives"
- Approaching God - prayer of adoration
- Corporate Confession
- Private Confession
- Confessional Response - singing Psalm 57
- Corporate Prayer
- Hymn - "Just as I Am"
- Singing Psalm 97
- Announcements/Greeting
- Offertory - solo of song titled "Anyway"
- Scripture Reading - I Samuel 16:1-13
- Sermon by assistant pastor on God's selection of David as king
- Praise Song - "There is a Redeemer"
- Benediction


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 28, 2009)

I normally do not do this but as the Church was referred to repeatedly in the thread, I think it's fair to give their Director of Music and opportunity to respond:



> I am the Director of Worship and Arts at Redeemer and would like to
> clarify a few items. It is true that we pay our musicians, even when
> they are members. It is an act of love and respect to recompense those
> who have extensive training and professional experience, just as many
> ...


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