# Submission



## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

As I have been looking for and continue looking for a church home, the idea of submission comes to mind more and more. I want to submit to a local church, but struggle where to draw the line when it comes to deciding who to submit to, especially when theological differences appear great. 

In my neck of the woods, attending a dispensational church may be the best option for our family. The seeker sensitive churches sicken me and dispensational churches at times get me riled up inside. I don't like being sick, so it may be best to deal with getting riled up. I've submitted to dispensational churches before and can do it again. I just wonder if its right.

I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts about what it means to submit and when we should submit? In the husband/wife relationship, submission is expected by the wife unless the husband asks her to do something blatantly against the scriptures. How does that idea relate to choosing a church to submit to? 

It seems like, by the nature of the word, that submission implies a difference of opinion with one party yielding to the other. Is that true? If I agree totally with a church's teachings, is submission possible? It seems like there's no need for submission if there's no disagreement. It seems like with submission, one has to swallow their pride and yield.

Any thoughts?

Bob


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

Oh yeah, one more thing. What is the evidence of internal submission? I've seen husbands and wives disagree about something and the wife, being a &quot;submissive wife&quot;, yields to the husband. However, she also complains and grumbles and makes it known that she disagrees with her husband's decision, thinks its a bad decision, and is only yielding because &quot;the bible says she has to submit&quot;. When I see that, I see at best an external submission, but not an internal one.

Relating that to submission to a church, what are the fruits that indicate submission to a church, especially when you don't agree with the teachings of the church? Can there be true submission inside if a person speaks out against the teachings while at church? how about at home?

Bpb

[Edited on 6-27-2004 by blhowes]


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 27, 2004)

Are there no reformed churches at all in your area? What is the closest one?


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

Patrick,
We've been to a couple. There's a reformed baptist church that I've been to several times over the years, to which I brought my family once. The worship style is so different from what we're used to that it was hard to convince the family to continue going there. It may have been easier if it was closer, but its around 45 minutes away. Between the distance traveled and the different worship style, it didn't go over too well. My wife said she would have submitted, but it would have been grudgingly. I decided not to press it at the time.

We also went to a congregational church a few times that was a bit closer. It was a very nice church that adhered strongly to the Savoy and Westminster confessions. Unfortunately, we wouldn't have been able to take the Lord's supper until we became members, and we couldn't become members until we submitted to their teachings about infant baptism. I appreciate their standards and applaud them for their stance, but I just couldn't submit to something like that if I didn't believe it.

We went to another one for a while that was moderately reformed. It was a community church that was a merger between a congregational church and a baptist church. We enjoyed it for a while, but when we got to the place in the Savoy statement of faith (in Sunday School) that talked about baptism, the pastor taught the class (in place of the teacher who was baptist and didn't feel he could do the Savoy teaching justice with a clear conscience) and we had a problem with the compromises made between the baptist and CT theologies. My wife and I both have problems with the idea of the catholic baptism being valid. There was a discussion about that and it was finally left up to the choice of the individual if they wanted or needed to get rebaptized after they believed. The catholic baptism was ok but, if the person felt strongly that they should be rebaptized, that was ok too. We had a problem with that because a new believer needs direction and shouldn't be left to figure it out for themselves. The church also participated in yearly ecumenical services and had women's fellowships with women from a local catholic church, which is tough to accept.

No church is perfect and I don't expect every church to believe exactly as I do (woe to that church if they did). With some of the churches we visited, the problem was that they just weren't doctrinally sound. With others, the problem may be mine. That's why I'm wrestling with the idea of submission. It may be my pride that's keeping God from blessing my family at a church home.

Bob


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## Craig (Jun 27, 2004)

Perhaps this is best approached from pastors or elders...but I'll weigh in if you don't mind, Bob.
[quote:727cefd03b]
We went to another one for a while that was moderately reformed. It was a community church that was a merger between a congregational church and a baptist church. We enjoyed it for a while, but when we got to the place in the Savoy statement of faith (in Sunday School) that talked about baptism, the pastor taught the class (in place of the teacher who was baptist and didn't feel he could do the Savoy teaching justice with a clear conscience) and we had a problem with the compromises made between the baptist and CT theologies. My wife and I both have problems with the idea of the catholic baptism being valid. There was a discussion about that and it was finally left up to the choice of the individual if they wanted or needed to get rebaptized after they believed. The catholic baptism was ok but, if the person felt strongly that they should be rebaptized, that was ok too.
[/quote:727cefd03b]

I'm paedo....I believe infant baptism is biblical. HOWEVER, I would submit to a Reformed Baptist church in it's teachings (excluding baptism) before I'd join a dispensational church. Teachings of Dispensationalists are destructive. I believe the compromise made by the church that left rebaptism up to the individual is prudent. It's just one of those things not worth stirring up the pond with. Would i be rebaptized if I had been baptized RC? Yes. But that is my conscience, and I think it's justified biblically, but it isn't terribly clear. These sorts of things are best left to conscience.

Major on the majors...let the minors be that. Also, I hope you are interacting with the leaders of these churches as you begin attending them. I am sure if these churches are solid and dedicated to discipleship, they'd be more than happy to work with you and probably find common ground.
[quote:727cefd03b]
The church also participated in yearly ecumenical services and had women's fellowships with women from a local catholic church, which is tough to accept. 
[/quote:727cefd03b]
This would be far more difficult to accept unless these were directed along the lines of social issues...like bing pro life.

Perhaps you are defining submission as the equivalent of full subcriptionism. I believe you can be submissive without fully subscribing to each article they teach. I am a full member of the OPC, but I assure you: I'm still learning their teachings! There are parts of the WCF I find troubling. I agree with it to an extent; where I &quot;deviate&quot; doesn't really affect my good standing with the OPC, especially since at this point I consider myself ignorant and open to correction. Teachability and humility is submission to the church. Submission also involves being subject to discipline. Would you be disciplined where you disagree with these churches? Perhaps these are things only found out after attending and interacting with those churches.

Anyways, I hope this is sort of helpful. It's tough to know where to draw the lines, but I think dispensationalism is a more destructive thing than some of the items from the congregational church.

BTW, what was it about the worship at the Reformed Baptist church that was too different? Was it contemporary using more choruses than hymns?

[Edited on 6-27-2004 by Craig]


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

[b:b5dc1765cd]Craig wrote:[/b:b5dc1765cd]
Perhaps this is best approached from pastors or elders...but I'll weigh in if you don't mind, Bob

By all means. Thanks.

[b:b5dc1765cd]Craig wrote:[/b:b5dc1765cd]
I'm paedo....I believe infant baptism is biblical. HOWEVER, I would submit to a Reformed Baptist church in it's teachings (excluding baptism) before I'd join a dispensational church.

I feel the same way about attending a good paedo church. It would be very different for the rest of my family, though, since all they've ever known is baptist teachings. I'm open to CT teachings, and I love to learn about it, but submitting to their teaching about baptism, unless I believed their way, would not seem right. 

I agree with you about the dispensational church, but after being so long without a church home, I'm getting a little frustrated and almost at the point where I want to just choose one and go for it. I miss it so much. (BTW, I don't know if you can relate, but me considering going back to a dispensational church is a good indicator of my frustration level)

[b:b5dc1765cd]Craig wrote:[/b:b5dc1765cd]
I believe the compromise made by the church that left rebaptism up to the individual is prudent. It's just one of those things not worth stirring up the pond with. Would i be rebaptized if I had been baptized RC? Yes. But that is my conscience, and I think it's justified biblically, but it isn't terribly clear. These sorts of things are best left to conscience. 

I agree with you somewhat. I guess it just concerns me if I were to bring somebody to church who ends up getting saved. It seems like its the responsibility of the church to be the teaching authority and disciple new believers. Leaving the choice about baptism up to a person who's being discipled just seems funny. The whole experience at a church that tried to teach both CT and baptist theology just seemed to do an injustice to both theologies. 

[b:b5dc1765cd]Craig wrote:[/b:b5dc1765cd]
BTW, what was it about the worship at the Reformed Baptist church that was too different? Was it contemporary using more choruses than hymns?

Oh, just a bunch of little things. They didn't have any electric guitars, drums, or tamborenes...(just kidding)

Here's some of what was different. They sang mostly from the psalter and maybe one or two songs we had never heard before from a reformed hymnal. They had responsive readings. There wasn't any children's church for the children, so all the children stayed through the entire service. The preacher's style of delivery was somewhat monotone and &quot;lack luster&quot;. The sermon wasn't organized in such a way to prompt a decision to accept Jesus. There wasn't any invitational or altar call at the end of the sermon. 

Bob


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## Craig (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob wrote:
[quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
but submitting to their teaching about baptism, unless I believed their way, would not seem right
[/quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
This is where I think you may be getting off track when wanting to submit: Most churches understand that there are diverse views on baptism...they will teach what they believe but leave it up to the believer. My Reformed Baptist pastor when doing marriage counseling for myself and my wife strongly encouraged me to be baptized again...I said I had already been baptized as an infant, then baptized as a teenager like everyone else at my church...I think another baptism would just be ridiculous. He left it at that and married us. In every matter concerning marriage, election, the Lord's Supper, discipline; my wife and I submitted. But I think most people view submission to baptism as actually being baptized if you haven't been already.

[quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
I miss it so much. (BTW, I don't know if you can relate, but me considering going back to a dispensational church is a good indicator of my frustration level) 
[/quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
To an extent. It's easiest for me to worship with my parents at their church when we visit...it keeps the peace and all...however, it is best if we worship with my brother and sister in law at their PCA church. This is something we've recently decided on. I stew too much at my parent's free methodist church and just want to run out at the end of the service. 

[quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
It seems like its the responsibility of the church to be the teaching authority and disciple new believers. Leaving the choice about baptism up to a person who's being discipled just seems funny.
[/quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
I can see where it seems funny...probably funnier to a credobaptist. When I read that Luther and Calvin weren't rebaptized and didn't encourage it...I was surprised. But I couldn't argue much with their reasoning. If the sacrament doesn't depend upon the minister as the Reformer's held, then RC baptism was valid...I disagree with them because I think since the RC's pronounced the gospel anethema they officially became a cult and not a Christian church.

[quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
They sang mostly from the psalter and maybe one or two songs we had never heard before from a reformed hymnal. They had responsive readings. There wasn't any children's church for the children, so all the children stayed through the entire service.
[/quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
That was sort of like my Reformed Baptist church, except they didn't sing from the psalter. It is my belief that families should worship together. Otherwise you have sort of a created generational gap that shouldn't exist within Christ's body. 

[quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
The preacher's style of delivery was somewhat monotone and &quot;lack luster&quot;. The sermon wasn't organized in such a way to prompt a decision to accept Jesus. There wasn't any invitational or altar call at the end of the sermon. 
[/quote:1ec8a2d4d1]
It is difficult if the preacher lacks a sort of passion...that is actually completely different than my Reformed Baptist church. Perhaps, though, your looking for an altar call is tinting the way your looking at this? The alter call was popularized by Charles Finney. He was not a Christian and relegated the work of the Spirit to human techniques trying to evoke a response. The alter call is not something you see when reading about scripture...actually, quite different. Perhaps that RB minister is like Paul. Remember when that guy fell asleep only to tumble to his apparent death, and Paul raised him back  Maybe not. The most important thing is content. Does the teaching demand a response: i.e. an application to life? Sometimes the most sanctifying and biblical calls are the most boring.

Again, I wasn't at the RB church you're talking about. It may be that the biggest obstacle is your family accepting a more Reformed church. That would be difficult. I would recommend checking out The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and then going to the White Horse Inn, or the Alliance Articles. Many articles and White Horse series include things about Finney and alter calls and the like. My wife was baptize Lutheran, raised Pentecostal Credobaptist...she's now Reformed...and still Reforming. I will keep you and your family in prayer. If they are desirous of being biblical, they will be open to something more along the Reformed lines.

P.S. My church sings Psalms...it was weird at first...there were no musical notes to indicate how to sing...but now we really like singing them! It's a discipline that can be learned and enjoyed. I would much rather endure some pain for a while just to avoid the excruciating pain of dispensationalism


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob, I would like to ditto Craig. If the only reformed church around for me was a reformed baptist church then I would have no problem submitting until a Presbyterian or reformed church would start up. Reformed preaching is the most important thing in choosing the church. The other things I think, though important issues, should not prevent you from fellowshipping and growing there, though there will be growing pains for sure. Even a boring preacher, if he is more biblical, will be more beneficial to you than a charasmatic less biblical person. It may require more work on your part to glean something from the sermon with a boring preacher (i.e. taking notes may help), but at least you know you are getting a faithful message. I feel for you Bob. I would not want to be in the position of having to choose between some poor churches. But the Lord has put you there for a reason. You must always keep that in mind.


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

[b:45c05025f5]Craig wrote:[/b:45c05025f5]
This is where I think you may be getting off track when wanting to submit: Most churches understand that there are diverse views on baptism...they will teach what they believe but leave it up to the believer.

Actually, this was a requirement at the church I was talking about. There wasn't any room for negotiation. Regardless of my beliefs, in order to become members and be able to take communion, everybody in our family would need to have been baptized. 

[b:45c05025f5]Craig wrote:[/b:45c05025f5]
I will keep you and your family in prayer. If they are desirous of being biblical, they will be open to something more along the Reformed lines. 

Thanks. I really appreciate that. 

Regarding your response to my description of the reformed baptist church, the things I mentioned are things that the rest of my family felt uneasy about because its different from what we're used to. I felt right at home there.

Bob


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## Craig (Jun 27, 2004)

[quote:22a8e2e427]
Actually, this was a requirement at the church I was talking about.
[/quote:22a8e2e427]
Okay, so its how [i:22a8e2e427]they[/i:22a8e2e427] have defined submission. I see.

My recommendation is to prepare your family for the Reformed Baptist church. I couldn't take my family to a Dispensational church in good conscience...not regularly, at least, unless it was the absolute only option.

You truly are in a difficult position. It is difficult. Perhaps more difficult will be the effects of keeping your family comfortable. Don't b-bque me for that! The answer is simple...it's just what's involved with that decision that isn't.


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

Craig,
Thanks for the good advice. Its much appreciated.
Bob


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## fredtgreco (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob,

Do you have the option of worshipping in one church in the morning and one in the evening? If so, that might be a good way (along with gentle guidance and questions at lunch) to show your family the differences and the importance of tose differences.


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## blhowes (Jun 27, 2004)

[b:57276bc0f8]Fred wrote:[/b:57276bc0f8]
Do you have the option of worshipping in one church in the morning and one in the evening? If so, that might be a good way (along with gentle guidance and questions at lunch) to show your family the differences and the importance of tose differences.

That's a good idea. I'll check into it.
Bob


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## Scott (Jun 28, 2004)

[quote:ee91bf192e]
We also went to a congregational church a few times that was a bit closer. It was a very nice church that adhered strongly to the Savoy and Westminster confessions. Unfortunately, we wouldn't have been able to take the Lord's supper until we became members, and we couldn't become members until we submitted to their teachings about infant baptism. I appreciate their standards and applaud them for their stance, but I just couldn't submit to something like that if I didn't believe it. 
[/quote:ee91bf192e]

What are their teachings about baptism? How do they differ from yours?


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## blhowes (Jun 28, 2004)

[b:8af954d150]Scott wrote:[/b:8af954d150]
What are their teachings about baptism? How do they differ from yours? 

They believe in infant baptism. I believe in believer's baptism - that only those who have made a profession of faith should be baptized.

[Edited on 6-28-2004 by blhowes]


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## blhowes (Jun 28, 2004)

Patrick,
I somehow overlooked your response from yesterday. Just noticed it.

[b:9d33272afc]Patrick wrote:[/b:9d33272afc]
Reformed preaching is the most important thing in choosing the church. The other things I think, though important issues, should not prevent you from fellowshipping and growing there, though there will be growing pains for sure. 

Yes, I agree. Posting this thread and thinking/praying about the responses given has helped me rule out my desperation of just finding any church. 

Each of the three churches I mentioned have many good things about them, particularly the preaching. I'm prayerfully reconsidering them, trying to focus on the good rather than other stuff. 

[b:9d33272afc]Patrick wrote:[/b:9d33272afc]
Even a boring preacher, if he is more biblical, will be more beneficial to you than a charasmatic less biblical person. It may require more work on your part to glean something from the sermon with a boring preacher (i.e. taking notes may help), but at least you know you are getting a faithful message. 

As I mentioned to Craig, this was mostly my family's response. The content was there, so to me it was an immense blessing. As with any preacher, I try and just focus on what God is trying to tell me through the preaching. Prayer preparation before the service helps, as well. The associate pastor there, who I've heard preach once or twice, is much more dynamic in his delivery. Both are a blessing.

[b:9d33272afc]Patrick wrote:[/b:9d33272afc]
I would not want to be in the position of having to choose between some poor churches. But the Lord has put you there for a reason. You must always keep that in mind.

Thanks for the encouraging words. These last 2.5 years have been a challenging experience, but it has been a blessing in many ways. The experience has sort of forced me to trust God more and to get into his word more. It has made me appreciate how it must be at times for missionaries who are in some far off country, away from home, trying to do God's will. I can imagine the loneliness they must feel, as well as the encouragement they can get from the scriptures.

This forum, though by no means a replacement for church, has been a wonderful encouragement for me these last few years as well. Its the next best thing to face-to-face fellowship. 

Bob


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## JohnV (Jun 28, 2004)

Bob:
You ask about submission. I have found it to be at least a three level thing. The plainest is that of what you are talking about, submitting to those over you. We have to keep in mind that those over us are also to submit to the very same things we are to submit to. And they are only representing God, they are not themselves the authority. So this kind of puts submission into a kind of subjectivity, where people are willing to submit only to a certain point, but not when it crosses their personal lines. I would suggest that this is not a good attitude to have as far as submission is concerned. Those who have been given authority ought to be seen as also personally representing that authority. In other words, they not only lead by knowing and enforcing truth and righteousness, and justice, but they also lead by example. 

As a father you must know about that as well. You might make mistakes, but you're still father. 

The second level is that you have a personal responsibilty not to be led into error. So you have to uphold a submission which is able to rise above those to whom you owe submission, but with whom you must differ out of conviction. Even so, if it is a question of personal points of view, then you should submit, but if it is a clear Biblical precept that you feel is being transgressed, negated, or ignored, then you must submit to the truth, and not to the authority. But even here there is a call to a kind of submission that is Biblical, I believe, and by which such things can be resolved. And that is the third level I suggested above.

This level is the form of submission one takes to someone you know is wrong, but who is convinced he is right. There is much more to things than being right or wrong. We need to respect that we are all on the way to understanding, and even the best of us may learn from one of the least of us. We are so used to the idea of majority rule that we have this ingrown concept that the majority is right by being in the majority. But that's not mutual submission to it's fullest. The majority should never feel safe because it is in the majority. Even if they are right, they are fallenly right. We all need to remember that. 

So this third level is what pertains to your (and mine) situation. If we cannot find a church that submits to Scripture as we believe it ought to, then we need to accept our role of being an example of what submission truly is. This third level transcends the husband/wife authoritative relationship; it transcends the elder/parishioner authorititative relationship. A husband needs to learn that as an equal heir to eternal life with his wife he also owes her submission of this third kind; and an elder owes the parishioner submission of this third kind. Who knows whether Christ works His will in the one or the other? We must learn to &quot;entertain angels unawares&quot;, even in matters of truth. If we learn from our children, then submission to that is submission to Christ. We are equal heirs with them as well. (But that is Covenant Theology again; sorry. )

All in all, you must remember that &quot;against such there is no law.&quot; When you promise to be faithful to Christ and to His church, do do no wrong in submitting to the authority in the church, whoever they may be (The first level. ) You do wrong when you do not submit to Christ when you submit or do not submit to that authority (The second level. ) But you also do your brother wrong if you do not respect the gifts that Christ has given him, especially if he is that still small voice in the great tumult (The third level. ) Against doing right there is no law in the Word of God. 

You can, theoretically, do this in any church. But you are wise in being careful not to put yourself and your family in harm's way. If you choose to go to a dispensational church, you have your work cut out for you, if not just in your family then in your personal preparation of most interactions you will be involved in. If you go to a good Reformed Paedo church, that will be lessened, but you will still have difficulties. If you go to a Reformed Baptist church, one which is right along your alley, it will be lessened even more. But you will still have your work cut out for you all the same. Because the more you don't have to worry about the first level, the more you can exercise the second and third. And the less you have to worry about the second level, the more you will need to work on the third level. And that is the hardest one of all. It means that you are really working on your faith, and not just sitting in the pew. 

Christ is not without His church, even in our day.


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## blhowes (Jun 28, 2004)

John,
Thanks for answering my questions and for sharing your thoughtful insights about submission. They are very helpful and give me much to think about.

I was thinking about how submission, like all other things, is best when it originates in God and not in my own efforts. One of the fruits of the spirit came to mind: self control. That seems like such an important fruit when trying to submit, especially when what or who I'm submitting to goes against my &quot;natural&quot; instincts. 

[b:c22cceb041]John wrote:[/b:c22cceb041]
If we learn from our children, then submission to that is submission to Christ. We are equal heirs with them as well. (But that is Covenant Theology again; sorry. )

Never a missed opportunity 

Thanks again for your help,
Bob


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