# i think I know the answer, but let me ask about the rapture



## ReformedWretch (Jan 17, 2005)

Is the "secrete" rapture idea only held by dispensationalists?


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 17, 2005)

As far as I know...but I'm new to the camp.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 17, 2005)

Well, I considered myself "reformed" for a few months before leaving the dispensational exchatology. I *KNOW* that doesn't make any sense, but I was pretty ignorant at the time.

I am kind of wondering if anyone else mixes the views up?

John MacArthur comes pretty close in my opinion.


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## voided user1 (Jan 17, 2005)

I grew up in classic (what a way to define it!) Dispensationalism. I think up until the Left Behind series, it was only Dispensationalists. Those who glean their theology from whatever the popular literature of the moment might be (i.e., Left Behind) may hold to these views without realizing they are dispensationalizing themselves. I want to say dis(pens)ipating...


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 17, 2005)

I know it is not considered in-line with any of the Reformed eschatologies - for even Amillennialism, which holds that Christ could return at any time, holds that He will be equally revealed to all at that time, believers and unbelievers.


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Well, I considered myself "reformed" for a few months before leaving the dispensational exchatology. I *KNOW* that doesn't make any sense, but I was pretty ignorant at the time.



No, it does make sense...I can relate. When I started to sink my teeth into Reformed theology, I remember my personal theology being rewritten "piece by piece" as I continued to study and tear into the Word on such matters for myself. I'm hearing ya, Adam!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 17, 2005)

The secret rapture idea is relatively recent in Church history and not a part of historic Reformed eschatology. 

Here are a couple of articles from a Reformed perspective dealing with the secret rapture idea:

http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH99/NH9907b.html

http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/jesuit/j_2.htm


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## turmeric (Jan 17, 2005)

Did it come from the Plymouth Brethern?


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## SmokingFlax (Jan 17, 2005)

I think it did come from the Plymouth Bretheren (Darby). Or maybe that Irving guy just before them.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 17, 2005)

Who calls it 'secret' aside from people who disagree with it ?

Ryrie never does, to my knowledge. Neither does any dispensational author with half a brain that I've come across.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 17, 2005)

No, they never call it "secrete". But when we (those who are not premill dispie) talk about the rapture, we are normally talking about the final resurection, not some other one that happens beofre Satan takes over the earth.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 17, 2005)

Actually I think the originator of the rapture theory was Lacunza, a Roman Catholic in Spain (died in 1796? or so), who was the first recorded theologian to posit the theory of dispensationalism as we know it today. He's the guy Darby got his thoughts from and developed further. The Americanized versions came through James Brooks, and his pupil Scofield.


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## Joseph Ringling (Jan 17, 2005)

The only way you can come to the conclusion of a pre-trib rapture is if you separate the Nation Israel and the Church, correct? I.E, the trib is the time of Jacobs trouble so that means the Chuch will be outta here! Like I've heard numerous times on the PB, what about Galatians 3? 

The church that I am a member of started a series on this stuff about three weeks ago. Yesterday my pastor gave his defense of why he believes in a pre-trib rapture. I kind of cringed over a few of his comments but I'm prayfully working through what he's saying because I don't want to just totally dismiss the view without knowing why and being able to give a defense of my view.

I'm reading Riddlebargers book right now and it makes a LOT of sense. I'm also reading Mathisons book "Dispensationalism, rightly dividing the people of God" and that too has made a LOT of sense. My whole life I always believed the dispensational pre-mill view of the end times but over the last few weeks my heart has really been open to the errors of the system. I would also like to study the partial preterist view. After reading and re-reading Matthew 24 it seems like Jesus was talking about the descruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD.70 by the Romans. Does anyone know of any free articles online that explain this view?

The thing that kills me is that my Pastor has been right on since I've been attending my church over the last year and then he starts this series and I wonder how someone so Intellegent can come to these conclusions. It almost seems to me that you would have to put on "Dispensational glasses" in order to come to their conclusions.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 17, 2005)

Joe, the best site for free Preterist info (Partial not the heretical hyper stuff) is here;

http://www.preteristlist.com/



> The thing that kills me is that my Pastor has been right on since I've been attending my church over the last year and then he starts this series and I wonder how someone so Intellegent can come to these conclusions. It almost seems to me that you would have to put on "Dispensational glasses" in order to come to their conclusions.



You're exactly right! I know many people just like your pastor. Sadly, what I've discovered is that dispensational premill beliefs begin to color all your beliefs eventually.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 18, 2005)

Oh I like MacArthur! But being dispie eventually causes you to "give up" on social issues because things must get worse according you that belief system.


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## bond-servant (Jan 18, 2005)

Actually, one of the proof verses they use for a pretrib rapture is 1Th 5:9 : "For God has not destined us for wrath..." and say that this means removal during tribulation. But if a Christian reads it in context, it speaks of salvation - not of removal from earthly tribulation. :O


"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. " 1 Thes 5:9-10 (ESV)


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## tcalbrecht (Jan 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by skinsfanjoe_
> The only way you can come to the conclusion of a pre-trib rapture is if you separate the Nation Israel and the Church, correct?



Correct. As John Walvoord wrote, "It is therefore not too much to say that the rapture question is determined more by ecclesiology than eschatology."


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