# This from KJVO Pastor



## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

Ok guys, need a little assistance. My bother is thinking of attending a local church in his area. I am very excited about this because he has NOT been a member of a local body since we were young boys.

Here is a link to the Church:

WWW.UNDERSTANDINGYOURBIBLE.COM

I emailed the pastor to discuss some of his views, particularly on KJVO.

Here is his 2nd reply to me. For any of you guys that are more familiar with Greek and the subutleties of the different texts, I would appreciate your input here. I would also covet your opinion on the Church Link above if you would like to do so.


From the Pastor:
_Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God. _
_"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong. _

_KJV - 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
_
_We are not being saved, we either are or we are not. According to Eph 1:13 when we trust in Christ we are sealed (saved)._
_" In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"_

_Ehp 2:8 By Grace ye are saved.... not being saved - are saved._

_Those that teach we can lose our salvation love the rendering of the ESV because it states we can lose our salvation. If the ESB preverts the truth about the most basic truth of Salvation, which it does, it is in no way excellent. How can you defend such perversion. _


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## CDM (Mar 22, 2007)

See this post from this morning.


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## Herald (Mar 22, 2007)

Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.


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## CDM (Mar 22, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.



Do you know the pastor or are you concluding this because he thinks the ESV is a poor translation?

But, you may be right either way. Look at some of the "_What we believe_" page:

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ regardless of church affiliation, they are welcome (as is everyone) at Grace Bible Church which does not maintain church membership roles. We do not believe that any church should require more for church membership than God requires for salvation. The Lord knoweth them that are his. II Tim 2:19​
I wonder if he would let anyone on this board join the church? How does one join his church anyway - there are no membership roles. 

DENOMINATIONS: *We believe that to divide the church which is Christ’s body into denominations is unscriptural.* Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ there is no need to be divided into groups that were founded by men. We have no ties to any denominations, associations or ecumenical groups. We do associate with, and support those of like doctrine across the nation.​
"No need to divide..."? Let him read the WCF on Baptism and see what he thinks then! Or, for that matter, any other part of the confession.

This man may not have the capacity to be reasoned with after all.


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 22, 2007)

I can relate how you would rejoice in your brother attending church again. I visted the web site for this group. The very first statement of thier statement of faith troubles me. They believe in salvation without repentance if I understand them correctly. 
While I do not agree with thier KJV statement, they go a little far for me with it, it for the most part is not one of thier worse doctrines.


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## Chris (Mar 22, 2007)

caddy said:


> Ok guys, need a little assistance. My bother is thinking of attending a local church in his area. I am very excited about this because he has NOT been a member of a local body since we were young boys.
> 
> Here is a link to the Church:
> 
> ...




So...he thinks you're going to take one snippet from one verse and create a proof-text argument for a doctrine that goes against virtually everything you believe? 

That sounds normal for an IFB guy. 

I agree with BaptistinCrisis - don't waste your time. Explain to your brother that the guy has good intentions and means well but is wrong. Leave the rest up to your brother and God.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 22, 2007)

Translating the word so that the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.

This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

This was my first thought as well Bob.  



BobVigneault said:


> Translating the word so that *the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. *It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.
> 
> This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.


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## Chris (Mar 22, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Translating the word so that the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.
> 
> This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.




That expresses my thoughts, but in a manner I'm incapable of before lunchtime.


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

Excellent point here Mangum. Thank you!



mangum said:


> See this post from this morning.


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

Bill

I agree. Knowing that my brother may attend anyway, I tried my best to extend myself to this man in humility. I tried to be as gracious as possible. I told him that I was NOT looking to debate him, but that I only was concerned for my brother. I stated that as a believer we are to be as Bereans ( seeing he had a link that mentioned Berea ( MP3), I thought I would run with that ), searching the scriptures daily to see _if these things are so._ I mentioned our _inability_ to come on our own because I noted in his 1st reply to me that he had been to a SBC church and an "upwards" baskeball awards ceremony where someone had gave the standard 3 Step forumla on how to be "saved." I agreed that I had a problem with that, mentioned the doctrines of Grace, thinking that would spark a discussion, or provide us with some sign that we might have a "_point of contact_" and mutual agreement on a subject. All he could come back with was more on KJV. I saw very little evidence of graciousness on his part. 

Oh, he's open to my counsel, and I'll certainly give it to him!  



BaptistInCrisis said:


> Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.


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## Ravens (Mar 22, 2007)

> DENOMINATIONS: We believe that to divide the church which is Christ’s body into denominations is unscriptural. Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ there is no need to be divided into groups that were founded by men. We have no ties to any denominations, associations or ecumenical groups. *We do associate with, and support those of like doctrine across the nation.*



Anyone else see the irony in this?


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## Herald (Mar 22, 2007)

mangum said:


> Do you know the pastor or are you concluding this because he thinks the ESV is a poor translation?
> 
> But, you may be right either way. Look at some of the "_What we believe_" page:
> 
> ...



Chris, I can handle disagreements on translation. Point in fact is Rev. Matthew Winzer. He makes a very solid argument for the A.V. I disagree with him, but I do so in love and brotherly unity. The church in question reminds me of the typical baptistic type KJV only church. Their issue is not just the KJV. The rest of the "quackery" goes along with it. You already pointed some out some of it.


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## Herald (Mar 22, 2007)

Chris said:


> That expresses my thoughts, but in a manner I'm incapable of before lunchtime.


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## Ravens (Mar 22, 2007)

I shouldn't post so quickly after waking up, that's for sure.

I thought it said "we do *not* associate with..."

I guess implicitly the irony is still there, but not explicitly enough to be worth pointing out. Remind me to have more coffee before surfing the PB next time.


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


How does one join your church if there are no membership roles? - By being saved
 Do you believe in salvation without repentance? No
 Do I understand your statement of faith in your churches description correctly? No
 Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important  thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek
 
IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church


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## Blueridge Believer (Mar 22, 2007)

Good idea dear brother.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 22, 2007)

caddy said:


> I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



Ouch!


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## Poimen (Mar 22, 2007)

> From the Pastor:
> _Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God. _
> _"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong. _
> 
> ...



I am glad that this pastor teaches that a believer in Christ cannot lose his/her salvation but the Greek verb 'to save' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 is in the passive voice so the ESV is well within the boundaries of right translation when it renders it as 'being saved.' 

However, as Bob V. pointed out, this does not deny the 'perseverance of the saints.' In fact one could argue that since salvation is an on-going process we cannot fall away since we are confident with Paul "that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6) 

Canons of Dordrecht, 5.14



> And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments.


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## blhowes (Mar 22, 2007)

Caddy,
That's encouraging that your brother is considering becoming a member of a church after so long. Hopefully he'll be open to your thoughts about that church. Do you know of any other churches in his area that he might consider instead?



caddy said:


> From the Pastor:
> _Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God. _
> _"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong. _
> 
> ...





caddy said:


> Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important  thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek



Calling a Bible translation perverted, without knowing how to translate from the Greek, and not having any desire to know how to translate...wow!


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## Herald (Mar 22, 2007)

caddy said:


> I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



I'm sure this pastor is wholly convinced in what he believes. He is steeped in his perspective and is not going to change at this point. Your counsel that your brother find another church is spot on.


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

Yes, I suggested a number of Presbyterian Churches and stated my reasons why I thought He ought to look at them. We have had some really good discussions concerning Free Will and our inability to come to God. It was so interesting to note that we both were brought to belief about the same time, in the same church, when I was 14 and he was 15 or 16. He married a nice Catholic girl about 13 years ago, but she does not attend either. He is somewhat of a free spirit, but a good, logical thinker. Please pray for him. His name is Mike. I'm so glad that we have been reconnecting these past few weeks.



blhowes said:


> Caddy,
> That's encouraging that your brother is considering becoming a member of a church after so long. Hopefully he'll be open to your thoughts about that church. Do you know of any other churches in his area that he might consider instead?
> 
> 
> ...


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## caddy (Mar 22, 2007)

I communicated my last email to this Pastor after I received this!
Most Grevious:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me be very clear. There is no point in debating with someone who does not believe that there is a final authority. Your bible says one thing, mine another so there is no authority. Therefore we can debate for ever and that is all it would be, a debate. The Bible warns against that. I believe that I have the pure, perfect, preserved word of God and I wonder what your motive would be in trying to persuade me otherwise. I have been down that road long ago.

I grew up in the SBC, joined the church when I was 12, got baptized and started preaching when I was 18. I got saved when I was 23 when I finally heard a clear presentation of the gospel from the KJV. I have no respect for the religious system you are a part of and that is exactly what it is, a system.

As far as the WCF is concerned I could care less about their declaration. I do not need nor desire the approval of any man as to my ministry. I am accountable only to my savior.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

My desire is to be approved of God and you can only do that by Rightly Dividing the word. Of course you would not know that since your Bible doesn't say what mine does.

According to 2Tim 3:16-17 all a man needs for the work of the ministry is the Word of God. Not Greek, Hebrew nor the opinions of man.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am perfectly furnished to do the will of God with the KJV.

1 Tim 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I appreciate your effort to set me straight, I can only hope that you would have the same zeal to instruct your religious brethren on the importance of a clear presentation of the gospel. 

Eph 3:8-9
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church

----- Original Message ----- ​


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## blhowes (Mar 23, 2007)

Its tempting to express my negative thoughts about the pastor's response, but I'll resist and focus on those things that were positive:


caddy said:


> <snip>
> 2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
> 
> <snip>
> ...



 and


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## caddy (Mar 23, 2007)

Bob

All of that post was the Pastor's, not mine, save my opening comment which stated:


_*"I communicated my last email to this Pastor after I received this!
Most Grevious:"*_





blhowes said:


> Its tempting to express my negative thoughts about your last post, but I'll resist and focus on those things that were positive:
> 
> and


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## blhowes (Mar 23, 2007)

caddy said:


> Bob
> 
> All of that post was the Pastor's, not mine, save my opening comment which stated:
> 
> ...


Steve,
Sorry about my lack of clarity. I realized the bulk of the post was the Pastor's response, and its very tempting to comment negatively about his response. 

I reworded my post so its closer to what I meant.

Bob


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## Chris (Mar 23, 2007)

caddy said:


> I communicated my last email to this Pastor after I received this!
> Most Grevious:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...




Send him back an email and ask him why he thinks those Scriptures support his views - since they don't, in any way, do so.


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## caddy (Mar 23, 2007)

I thought as much Bob right after I posted my response to you. Appreciate that.

I'm just wondering what my Brother's going to think! I told the Pastor that I would be BCCing my brother concerning our exchange and that I would recommend that he find a different church. It grieved me to see the lack of graciousness on the part of this man. 





blhowes said:


> Steve,
> Sorry about my lack of clarity. I realized the bulk of the post was the Pastor's response, and its very tempting to comment negatively about his response.
> 
> I reworded my post so its closer to what I meant.
> ...


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## blhowes (Mar 23, 2007)

caddy said:


> I'm just wondering what my Brother's going to think! I told the Pastor that I would be BCCing my brother concerning our exchange and that I would recommend that he find a different church. It grieved me to see the lack of graciousness on the part of this man.


Its good that your brother was BCCed on the correspondences, and that the Pastor was aware of his inclusion. Now your brother has some good first-hand information on which to base his decision.


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## Gesetveemet (Mar 23, 2007)

Yes one of two modern day heresies.  
1.	One Bible
2.	Head coverings

It’s a bad church despite holding to the Authorized Version. 


William






.


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## larryjf (Mar 25, 2007)

The verb in this verse is in the 2nd person present passive indicative plural. There is nothing wrong with the ESV translation here.


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## satz (Mar 26, 2007)

Please understand I am not trying to defend this particular pastor or church or their particular set of doctrines.

However, I think many of us are too quick to dismiss the value of having an English (or any currently spoken language) bible that both pastors and sheep can trust as the very words of God without having to worry about the fact that they might be looking at a wrongly translated word or a bible from the wrong manuscript family.

I believe that when we say God preserved his word, we must believe he preserved it in a form that is readily understandable by the common man, and not merely in the sense of preserving ancient manuscripts written in languages no one speaks anymore and which must be pieced together like a jigsaw to by scholars to find the real word of God. Because when the scriptures are referred to in the bible, they are never presented like that. The common people never had to go though scholars to weed out copying or translation errors when they read the scriptures. No prophet, teacher or Apostle in the bible ever told someone he was using the wrong manuscript or had a faulty translation.

To phrase it another way, is the thing we read everyday during devotions, and which our pastors preach from on Sunday the scriptures, or a book about the scriptures? Is it the Word of God, or a book containing some of the words of God? If what we have really is the scriptures, then according to Acts 17:11, even if the Apostle Paul were still around today, performing miracles and raising the dead, and receiving direct inspiration from God, we can still hold him accountable that he is teaching in accord with the scriptures. And God calls such an attitude, to check out that what your minister is saying is true by the scriptures, noble. But such checking and accountability is impossible today under the current paradigm we have where Christians in the pew being told that this word in their bibles in not quite translated the right way, or that his sentence may or may not be the word of God since it doesn’t appear in such and such manuscript. And the kicker is, even if the pastor/scholar was right about the translation not being accurate to the inspired word of God, there is no way his sheep can tell that he is telling the truth by checking back with scripture. Because the authority has been taken away from the scriptures and given to scholars who decide what is and what is not the word of God.

It may sound childish and extreme but I believe we must have faith that God will preserve his words so that the common man will have them at the word perfect level, because how can we say ‘every word of God is pure’ when we are not even sure what are the exact _words_ of God but rather we say we can only know the _ideas_ communicated in the scripture.


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## caddy (Mar 26, 2007)

Understood Mark. The pastor and I had numerous exchanges. I feel I was very gracious and told him at the start that I was NOT seeking to debate him. I told him that I still have the KJV and use it, although I like the NJKV and ESV better. It is wonderful for memorizing scripture. What troubled me was that there was never any openess in tone. Never did he mention or ask anything about my brother, tell me he would pray for him or that he was looking forward to him visiting his church. After all, though I did have questions about his KJVO stance, more important to me was the spiritual care my brother might be sitting under. His focus stayed strictly on KJVO, not the soul of my brother. I want more for this pastor, more for his church and certainly more for my brother. 

Here is the pastor's last email to me:

Let me be very clear. There is no point in debating with someone who does not believe that there is a final authority. Your bible says one thing, mine another so there is no authority. Therefore we can debate for ever and that is all it would be, a debate. The Bible warns against that. I believe that I have the pure, perfect, preserved word of God and I wonder what your motive would be in trying to persuade me otherwise. I have been down that road long ago.

I grew up in the SBC, joined the church when I was 12, got baptized and started preaching when I was 18. I got saved when I was 23 when I finally heard a clear presentation of the gospel from the KJV. I have no respect for the religious system you are a part of and that is exactly what it is, a system.

As far as the WCF is concerned I could care less about their declaration. I do not need nor desire the approval of any man as to my ministry. I am accountable only to my savior.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

My desire is to be approved of God and you can only do that by Rightly Dividing the word. Of course you would not know that since your Bible doesn't say what mine does.

According to 2Tim 3:16-17 all a man needs for the work of the ministry is the Word of God. Not Greek, Hebrew nor the opinions of man.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am perfectly furnished to do the will of God with the KJV.

1 Tim 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I appreciate your effort to set me straight, I can only hope that you would have the same zeal to instruct your religious brethren on the importance of a clear presentation of the gospel. 

Eph 3:8-9
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would post my response to him, which addressed each of his points thoroughly, but I really don't want to continue this thread to brow beat a man that is in need of God's correction, not necessarily mine. I told the pastor that his reply deeply greived me. Simply put, I hope something I said would make this pastor think. After all, if Matthew 5:18 tells us that not one _jot _or _tittle _would pass away till it all be fulfilled, how important is one word, one sentence, one paragraph! Pray for this man. He is a Sheppard. Please pray for my brother who needs to sit under one that is more qualified than this man.


 



satz said:


> Please understand I am not trying to defend this particular pastor or church or their particular set of doctrines.
> 
> However, I think many of us are too quick to dismiss the value of having an English (or any currently spoken language) bible that both pastors and sheep can trust as the very words of God without having to worry about the fact that they might be looking at a wrongly translated word or a bible from the wrong manuscript family.
> 
> ...


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## DrawnbytheFather (Jul 24, 2007)

mangum said:


> Do you know the pastor or are you concluding this because he thinks the ESV is a poor translation?
> 
> But, you may be right either way. Look at some of the "_What we believe_" page:
> 
> ...



Are you sure it isn't a Calvary Chapel in disguise ? They have the same mentality.


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## CalvinandHodges (Jul 24, 2007)

Greetings:

The bigger problem is their dispensationalism. Such churches are not worth attending except under extreme conditiions.

Ask your brother to find another.

Blessings,

-CH

PS: The ESV is a poor translation, though not necessarily for the reasons this pastor has stated.

-CH


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## 3John2 (Jul 24, 2007)

That is so sad. I feel bad for his flock. I also fear for that man. Can you imagine being in his shoes when he has to stand before the Father?! Such ignorance is very prevalent nowadays though. So sad. I've met so many with such attitudes. We should pray for his flock.


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## DrawnbytheFather (Jul 24, 2007)

*Are they also Mid Acts Dispensationalists?*

This church is a Mid Acts church too, if you didn't know that already. 

I know this topic is old, and is probably no longer of interest, but thought you might like to know that if you didn't already.

I am on this site now, and reading something pertaining to wives here:

http://www.understandingyourbible.com/husb2.htm

" While all scripture is not "to us", all scripture is definitely "for us", that is, for our admonition and learning.

We are told in II Timothy 3:16-17,
16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

While we may learn from the doctrines of other dispensations, we are only to apply the doctrines that are written to us, specifically. "


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