# Occult objects in your home



## Pergamum

> Be careful of what you bring into your home! You would be surprised how many times I have seen people with infirmities caused by things they had brought into their house!
> 
> Occult objects and idols can wreak havoc on your life.
> 
> Deuteronomy 7:26,Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
> 
> Deuteronomy 13:17,And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;



This was a message sent to me by an evangelist. Also, sometimes other missionaries say things similar to this. During initial missionary training I had an instructor warn us along these lines for about an hour during one course. This way of thinking is often very widespread among missionaries.

How would you respond to this or counter their views in a gentle manner? Some folks would think I am being careless if I used old tribal charms as decorations, etc.


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## kvanlaan

Not sure - I think there is wisdom in some of what he says (but not all). I don't think it is wise to bring idols into our homes, but I don't know that they cause infirmities. It is not that they will make you sick, but the fact that they are means of worshipping false gods, that should keep them out of our home.


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## Fogetaboutit

The scriptures says we are not to be afraid of idols, the verses in Deuteronomy are probably referring to people who are trusting in these idols or at least believing they have some type of power. But I also think it is wise not to use idols as decorations, would you decorate your house with crucifixes, statues of the virgin Mary, Rosaries, pentagrams or Buddha statues? Especially if the people you are ministering too are used to viewing these objects as idols it would probably wise not bring them into your home.


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## Tim

There is also this principle:



> Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thess. 5:22)


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## Rich Koster

Debunk the superstition of things possessing evil powers, and don't use ( especially local) objects of idolatry which resemble false deities for decorations. If someone worships motorcycles or horses, I would ride one, because that person has taken it to the ludicrous stage where reasonable conversation is highly improbable. If someone worships trees, I would not avoid using wood. The emphasis is that they, God's people, were defying Him, and that had consequences, not that the items themselves had any spirit of malady living on/in it.


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## Constantlyreforming

My mom always told me that Star Wars stuff was of the occult.




so there.


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## Pergamum

The Taliban blew up statues of Buddha. If I had an antique statue of Buddha, however, I think I might display it in my home as a decoration. If I had Buddhist neighbors who wanted to bow before it, I suppose I'd need to move it to the basement.

Many tribal cultures have necklaces they believe possess spiritual power to heal or ward off demons. These necklaces make fine gifts for missionary supporters I've always thought. Some, however, would say I am endangering the giftee. 

Likewise, in Java, families have a Kris knife where the familial spirit is said to reside (and these make neat wall hangings).

Are missionaries buying into the animistic worldview if they fear these objects? Or, are western missionaries blinded by a Western materialist worldview that minimizes the place of spiritual forces and fails to see the potential spiritual dangers to such practices?


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## AThornquist

Then what about "Holy" books? If occult items can cause such things, then why wouldn't the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc.?


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## Pergamum

good additional question, Andrew. I keep all of the above as references.


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## Caroline

It is absolutely buying into superstition to believe that those things possess the power to make people ill or have bad luck. I think that is a form of worship, even if it is a negative form--it acknowledges the idol as having power.

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily display an idol that was in frequent use by people in my culture, in case they should be mislead into thinking I honored it. I think statues in general are tacky home decor, so I don't have any. But, if I were into that sort of thing, I would have no problem with having bookends decorated with Egyptian gods, purely for artistic reasons. Nobody worships those gods anymore. If someone brought it up, I'd say that it was a testimony to the eternal power of the true God--He is still worshiped in churches everywhere, and the Egyptian deities are reduced to holding up my books. 

This is not nearly on the same level as the occult, but what I do have decorating my home are old photos of Peniel Bible Conference. It is a historical interest of mine, and I ended up with numerous photographs from the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's. Peniel held some highly aberrant theological views in those days and stirred up the longest-running controversy in the history of the OPC (not that the OPC is without blame in the matter, but that is a long story). But the photos are beautiful and interesting, with a whole history involved. I don't think we should look to erase history and art, whether it is old Peniel Bible Conference photos or Indonesian beads. The fact is, these things exist, and they are artsy and interesting. Looking at them, talking about them, using them as conversation pieces in decoration is not inherently wrong, although some wisdom is necessary.

PS Actually, come to think of it, I do have one statue... a figurine of Merlin granting the wish of a hedgehog. I've always liked the Camelot story, and I have a pet hedgehog, so it was fitting. I suppose some would say that Merlin is a wizard and therefore occult. If I lived in a culture that worshiped Merlin, I suppose I wouldn't have the figurine. As it is, it is a fairytale, and the hedgehog is adorable, as all hedgehogs are.


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## reaganmarsh

Pergamum said:


> good additional question, Andrew. I keep all of the above as references.



Me too. I don't think I'm opening myself to attack spiritually. The gods of the nations are but idols. 

I have a "bad theology" portion of one bookshelf in my Study at the church which serves for reference/research and instructing congregants, inquirers, and even counselees, as necessary/appropriate.


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## Skyler

Pergamum said:


> Be careful of what you bring into your home! You would be surprised how many times I have seen people with infirmities caused by things they had brought into their house!
> 
> Occult objects and idols can wreak havoc on your life.
> 
> Deuteronomy 7:26,Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
> 
> Deuteronomy 13:17,And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was a message sent to me by an evangelist. Also, sometimes other missionaries say things similar to this. During initial missionary training I had an instructor warn us along these lines for about an hour during one course. This way of thinking is often very widespread among missionaries.
> 
> How would you respond to this or counter their views in a gentle manner? Some folks would think I am being careless if I used old tribal charms as decorations, etc.
Click to expand...


I really don't think that the problem these passages are addressing is people using idols as decorations in their living rooms.

I do not have much personal experience or profound knowledge of the occult, but it seems to me that it isn't the object itself that is the focus of the spiritual/demonic activity, but the person (or persons) who worships/reveres it.

I tend to suspect that considering such an artifact a "good luck charm" or giving it some similar superstitious reverence or fear (whether based on its history or no) would probably fall under the category of worship and hence convey the above-mentioned curse, but I'm hesitant to say so dogmatically.


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## Jack K

This issue has many sides to consider. My family certainly struggled with it where we ministered, especially as nearly every cultural artifact potentially held some religious significance. It was hard to come by anything that reflected the culture and was completely "secular." Some principles:

1. We need not fear the spiritual forces of the occult. If we come into contact with items used for the occult, we don't run away.

2. But we don't _like_ items used for the occult. Especially if they hold little other useful value, why would we keep them around to admire them? Idols and occult artifacts simply aren't admirable, no matter the artistic qualities in them. They represent things we find distasteful. (Paul said it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, which has useful value in daily life, if you do it with thanksgiving to God. But he seems to have supported the Ephesians' burning of their magic books, which represented a direct trust in the occult and had no other useful value.)

3. And we want to be careful never to give the impression we are syncretists, adding a little local voodoo to our religion in case it helps alongside of Jesus. Such practice was so common where we were—Christian "believers" who'd pray to God but still went to the medicine man as well when they got really sick, just in case that might help—that we tried to avoid any appearace that we might also be relying on these things on the side.

We didn't display in our home or make gifts of charms, sandpaintings—anything closely associated with belief in false gods and spirits—not because we feared they might harm us or our visitors, but because we found them distasteful. I suppose one might take such items and turn their use into a God-pleasing one, but it never felt quite right to us. Other cultural artifacts like rugs and pottery, where the religious significant was less "out front" and the practical use more evident, we gladly brought into our home and (like food offered to idols) made use of them with thanksgiving to God.


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## Tim

Jack K said:


> ...why would we keep them around to admire them? Idols and occult artifacts simply aren't admirable, no matter the artistic qualities in them. They represent things we find distasteful.



My thoughts exactly.


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## Pergamum

We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?

We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?


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## Caroline

I think it is entirely possible to admire the artistry of something without admiring the religion. Greek statues are beautiful, even if they are statues of Zeus and Athena. If someone felt like venerating Zeus and Athena, I'd be more sympathetic to destroying the statues. But it seems questionable whether it just becomes unnecessarily destructive to start crushing all art that wasn't made by Christians. People may have wrong religious beliefs, but that doesn't make them bad artists.

I can see dealing with problems that encourage idolatry now, but I see no reason to destroy things that no one has worshiped for a thousand years, or if it is now in a culture where no one even knows it ever had a religious purpose (Indonesian beads or wall hangings given to Americans). At some point, it has the effect of venerating the object--it is such a threat to Christianity that we must get rid of it even when no one bothers with it anymore.


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## Tim

Caroline said:


> People may have wrong religious beliefs, but that doesn't make them bad artists.



I think we must take care to distinguish between artistic works done by non-Christians that 1) were done to portray or promote evil religion, and 2) do not express anything unlawful in itself.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the latter is not permitted. 

But I do think there is a categorical distinction between a statue of Buddha and a statue of a horse or lion (for example).


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## Loopie

I am not sure why we are necessarily talking about destroying pieces of art, or even just pieces of human history. Certainly we ought to be careful about having things in and around our home (or on our necks/wrists). But I certainly would not advocate a community wide destruction of historic/religious/artistic objects. The Taliban destruction of Buddhist statues comes to mind, as well as the conversion of the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque after the fall of Constantinople. 

I can understand getting rid of things in your home that are idolatrous, but at what point should the community or nation as a whole tear down and destroy the objects of others of different faiths? Even if those objects USED to be religious, they might simply be artistic now (the Muslims have not destroyed the Pyramids). And even if those objects are no longer religious or artistic, they are still historical. Should the Black Stone of the Kaaba in Mecca be destroyed? Should the wailing wall in Jerusalem be destroyed? If for some reason Saudi Arabia and Israel became overwhelmingly Christian in their population, would we as Christians be obligated to destroy those objects?


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## Tim

.


> Numbers 33:52
> Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:





> 2 Kings 18:4
> He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:





> 2 Chronicles 14:3
> For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:


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## Jack K

Pergamum said:


> We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?
> 
> We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?




I do think there comes a point where some false religious artifacts take on historical significance. Also, all artifacts of an unbelieving culture will be, often to a great extent, tainted by false religion... and that tainting in itself shouldn't be a cause to reject the artifact completely. We'd have to reject the entire culture.

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule here. I think all the principles I mentioned earlier apply, and we need to apply wisdom and act accordingly based on the particular situation, artifact, and people involved. I would have no problem visiting an Egyptian pyramid. In fact, I'd like to. I'm sure I'd be impressed, to an extent. But I wouldn't forget the deception and false worship behind them, either.


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## Loopie

Tim said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> Numbers 33:52
> Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Kings 18:4
> He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Chronicles 14:3
> For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I guess it comes down again to the relationship between church and state. Surely the church, as the new Israel, is to remove all idolatry within it (within the church). But does this apply as well to an entire nation? If for some reason the vast majority of a population in a modern nation today were Christian, would they therefore be obligated to destroy all non-Christian artifacts, even if those artifacts are within the possession of non-Christian citizens of the nation?


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## Caroline

I still have no problem with them if they were made to promote a false religion... as long as they are not used for that purpose now and displayed in such a way as to imply reverence. When God told the Israelites to destroy the altars of the false gods, those were altars currently in use. Think of it this way: How many homeschoolers teach their children Greek and Roman myths in literature? How many people here own a copy of Plato's works? The Apostle Paul quoted pagan poets in the Bible. Calvin thoroughly discusses Plato and other pagan philosophers in the Institutes. I think it is pretty standard for Christians to appreciate works of pagan cultures, even those that explicitly reference false gods. Even pagans are made in the image of God, and they produce some remarkable art, poetry, and literature. We shouldn't venerate it, but there's no need to be scared of it, or even to be ignorant of it.


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## Pergamum

Tim said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> Numbers 33:52
> Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Kings 18:4
> He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Chronicles 14:3
> For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


How would the New Testament church do these things? What does "general equity" require in this case?


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## Alan D. Strange

I am not sure how this thread got to public art and artifacts that have been manufactured for idolatrous purposes.

The thread title is "Occult objects in your home" and the primary concern was attributing to them power to do us ill. I think that it's clear from a number of cited Scriptures that such objects have no such power.

They represent false worship, however. Why would I want them, both for fear of their presence being misunderstood, as if my faith were in any measure syncretistic, and also for the fact that they are violations of, at least, the first three commandments in their manufacture? To me something does not go from being made as an idol for false worship to a decoration in my home. It's not just distasteful, it seems to lack good judgment and to be so open to misinterpretation as to be simply avoided. I should add that I may have them for scholarly purposes, but that's completely different from using them as decoration. 

Now what to do about such outside my home is not something under my control, in the first instance. So even if I wanted to argue for the destruction of a Buddha statue, that's something else altogether different from having it or not having it in my home. There's all sort of art that I may see in a museum, including idols of all sorts, that do not prompt me to crave their destruction. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I would never want something of that sort used as decoration in my home. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Caroline

Alan D. Strange said:


> I am not sure how this thread got to public art and artifacts that have been manufactured for idolatrous purposes.
> 
> The thread title is "Occult objects in your home" and the primary concern was attributing to them power to do us ill. I think that it's clear from a number of cited Scriptures that such objects have no such power.
> 
> They represent false worship, however. Why would I want them, both for fear of their presence being misunderstood, as if my faith were in any measure syncretistic, and also for the fact that they are violations of, at least, the first three commandments in their manufacture? To me something does not go from being made as an idol for false worship to a decoration in my home. It's not just distasteful, it seems to lack good judgment and to be so open to misinterpretation as to be simply avoided. I should add that I may have them for scholarly purposes, but that's completely different from using them as decoration.
> 
> Now what to do about such outside my home is not something under my control, in the first instance. So even if I wanted to argue for the destruction of a Buddha statue, that's something else altogether different from having it or not having it in my home. There's all sort of art that I may see in a museum, including idols of all sorts, that do not prompt me to crave their destruction. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I would never want something of that sort used as decoration in my home.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



Do you have a book of Greek or Roman mythology in your home? Or a Bible that quotes in the book of Acts a poem written in praise of Zeus?

If you choose not to have decorations in your home of any type, then that is, of course, your business. I wouldn't even really argue it in any ordinary church setting. If it bothers someone, then they are free not to do it. However, I do think the logic breaks down at some point. Paul quoted Cretica (a poem in praise of Zeus) and the Holy Scriptures included the quote. I don't think we should try to be holier than God. 

Art in a museum seems to me to be not that far different from what I have in my home. Generally, if I appreciate something or find it interesting, that is the sort of thing I decorate with. The difference between scholarly interest and decorative interest is very blurry to me. Why must I see it in a museum and not see it at home? But then, I decorate more for interest than for beauty. Everything in my home has some story behind it.

PS A observation: A couple of years ago, our church ran a VBS program called "Out of Egypt," about the story of God delivering the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt. Can you guess what we decorated with? Yep, pyramids. Also, we had a guy dressed up as Pharaoh (who was considered a deity in ancient Egypt) that we called "Memory Verse Pharaoh" and he helped the kids learn their memory verses. Now, of course, we would never decorate with Buddhas or Hindu gods, because those are currently worshiped. But I don't think anyone (kid or adult) walked into our VBS and said, "Perhaps I should pour out a drink offering to Osiris." It was decoration, pure and simple. Everyone understood that. There ARE pyramids in Egypt, and when you think, "Let's decorate Egyptian style," you think pyramids. Nobody attaches a mystical importance to them during a VBS program. Hence the reason I am uncomfortable proclaiming that all decoration of anything that was ever used in worship of other gods should be shunned. Let's get real here. We all read pagan literature. Sometimes pastors even use the story of Sisyphus as a sermon illustration. I can think of no logical reason that we can enjoy an ancient Greek play but must shun ancient Greek art. I can't see why Paul could quote pagan poetry to emphasize sermon points but I must hate it. Sometimes art is just art.


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## Alan D. Strange

Caroline:

I have not intended to speak in a way that caused offense. I hope that I have caused none.

All of the instances that you mention (pagan books, Paul) are educational: didactic and polemical (I used the word "scholarly" to mean the same thing). Of course, I am not opposed to learning about any of these things, or, for example, to quoting Nietzsche in a public lecture, as I did recently. In fact, part of my task as a professor is apologetics and I employ all sorts of things in the pursuit of it.

Paul deconstructed the Stoics and Epicureans and reconstructed them in a Christian context because this is God's world and not the pagan's. That was all verbal. How do you reconstruct a mute image, however? We're not told that he grabbed any of those idols in the agora and took them home. I'm sure that he didn't, unless he had them for a sort of "show and tell" to instruct and warn about such. That is to say, for educational purposes. 

That's all something rather different than the original question with respect to using "old tribal charms as decorations." Things that are specifically made as idols (images, not books of those religions--not the same) could seem, in the missionary context especially, inappropriate as decorations, as Jack so well noted, giving to them an honor that they do not deserve.

There are host of things that I've seen in museums all over and profitably learned from that I would never dream having in my home. We are apparently on a very different wave-length on this one. Perhaps in practice we are not as far apart as it seems but are not connecting in our communincation.

Peace,
Alan


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## Caroline

No, no offense at all. I merely find it an interesting topic. Truthfully, if this discussion were taking place in the Fellowship Hall at church, I wouldn't even argue the point--there's no harm in refraining from displaying certain decorations, and I would avoid it if only so as not to cause dissension in the church and give my pastor a headache. A discussion board makes me more forthcoming with my opinions.  Really, I think that if someone is uncomfortable having those things in their home, then they probably shouldn't have them. I would not have a Buddha in my home--partly because I think those statues are ugly, and partly because it would suggest to visitors that I am Buddhist. I actually have no Egyptian statues either, although I do have an interest in Egyptian art. I don't think I would be opposed to having them. My home mostly displays books written by early OPC ministers and photos of the Peniel Bible Conference as those are my primary topics of research.

It's more a question of logical consistency--can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot? Must we constantly feel resentment toward it, or can we just appreciate it as art when it offends no one? I do agree that in the context in which something is commonly worshiped, it should be avoided for the sake of one's witness, generally speaking. A missionary probably shouldn't display the gods of the tribe in his home... but if someone happened to pick one up on a tour and had it as a decoration with no further significance attached to it (and no one even knew what it was), then I don't see the harm.

Also... I apologize if I sounded belligerent about my comments. Forums make for interesting discussion but don't convey tone well. It's an interesting topic, but not one in which I have a personal stake (I don't have any pagan art, unless you count my Merlin and hedgehog figurine).


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## Pergamum

Should I stop shipping tribal necklaces home to supporters or family as souvenirs from living overseas? 

There are some pretty neat wood carvings here among the Asmat, but they are connected to pagan worship. 

I know folks who keep old swords and shields to hang on their walls - to what extent are they guilty or not merely tacky decorating but sinful glorification of violence? 

I can think of no American off-hand who would be tempted to idolatry when confronted with a wooden totem.


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## sevenzedek

God's declarative and aesthetic glory exists in pagan art and I think that glory should be enjoyed even though unbelievers enjoy it wrongly (Hmmm, unbelievers enjoying God's glory sounds like the Unbelievers Desiring God thread). However, pagan art may also appear to communicate pagan ideology to some people. We need to be careful about what we may be inadvertently communicating to others. Because the circumstances in which we are free to enjoy pagan art are too varied, it is difficult to come up with a rule that would govern our enjoyment of it. I think we need to be mindful of our cultural context and our personal motivations.


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## SinnerSavedByChrist

Pergamum said:


> We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?
> 
> We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?


Indeed I find them (the pyramids / Buddha statues) quite distasteful. When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how _demonic_ the statues of the maoris were. Made me angry just looking at them, knowing that satan had infiltrated the polynesian culture to the core and encouraged idolatry etc. 

In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it. The aroma from burning such demonic material is most pleasing 



Caroline said:


> can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot?


Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of". Having recently found "The Bruised reed", I think my extra-biblical reading desires shall fully be satisfied by such Godly writings as by the Puritans. 

But I think overall, this is a matter of Christian liberty: if it offends anyone, then chuck it out. If you know in your conscience that idols have no power and that you are "en guarde" against the deceitful nature of such things, then by all means keep it. As for heathen literature - I find very little profit in most of them. I guess you can learn of their worldview? I find talking to strangers one-on-one is a very fast way to gauge what is "going around" in the current culture.


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## Tim

SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how demonic the statues of the maoris were.



Yes, and we should feel the same way about the totem pole of the North American Indian.



SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it.



The Reformed Presbyterian Church is active in Sudan. I recall seeing a video of some Sudanese people singing for joy. What just happened? Well, they were new Christians and they had just brought their "objects" to be burned.


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## a mere housewife

I have such happy memories of visiting a museum with Caroline and her daughter. I had to find a place to sit too soon, but more than the exhibits themselves, I enjoyed seeing what drew them and the way they were able to value and appreciate things I found quite oppressive to be around, simply through their love of history, and delight in learning about different cultures, etc. -- These are things that delight me in them. I wondered if this sort of interest would be a factor in how others perceive what various individuals might do in this area. I would be far less surprised to see an artifact from a pagan culture on the shelf of someone who has a 'curator'? type appreciation of artifacts, than on the shelf of someone who does not: some people's aesthetic seems to be more about having an educational environment. It is at least a factor that I would almost unconsciously take into consideration.

I wondered reading through 1 Corinthians 8 in light of this discussion if one thing to take away is that love for one another is a significant aspect of the worship we are offering to the true God in this area? It was interesting to me that it is not the idols or the things offered to them that Paul considers dangerous -- we know that the idols are nothing and the things offered to them are nothing. This knowledge is a good thing to have because it is true and it frees us from considerations that don't really matter. Yet the thing Paul sees as potentially destructive is this knowledge without the consideration that does matter -- love.


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## Pergamum

SinnerSavedByChrist said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?
> 
> We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed I find them (the pyramids / Buddha statues) quite distasteful. When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how _demonic_ the statues of the maoris were. Made me angry just looking at them, knowing that satan had infiltrated the polynesian culture to the core and encouraged idolatry etc.
> 
> In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it. The aroma from burning such demonic material is most pleasing
> 
> 
> 
> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of". Having recently found "The Bruised reed", I think my extra-biblical reading desires shall fully be satisfied by such Godly writings as by the Puritans.
> 
> But I think overall, this is a matter of Christian liberty: if it offends anyone, then chuck it out. If you know in your conscience that idols have no power and that you are "en guarde" against the deceitful nature of such things, then by all means keep it. As for heathen literature - I find very little profit in most of them. I guess you can learn of their worldview? I find talking to strangers one-on-one is a very fast way to gauge what is "going around" in the current culture.
Click to expand...


Michael:


You said:


> Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of".



Do you believe that Christians need to be ashamed of reading Dante's Inferno and the Iliad and Herodotus?


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## Alan D. Strange

Again, I think that the focus of the original thread keeps getting lost. It was about idols made specifically for false worship: should we, recognizing that an idol is nothing, redeem it for use in home decoration? Some of us had problems with that, while other didn't. Understood. I qualified mine by noting that any number of artifacts might be owned or used for purposes of education/research and the like.

There has also been--and this is where to me the focus seems to get lost--a curious identity being made between anything pagan and the manufacture of idols. I do not agree that this is all the same. What is meant by pagan art? I assume that you mean art made by someone who is not Christian--this would, of course, condemn almost wholesale most of the great art, literature, etc. This is not remotely my position. Nor anyone else's but the veriest fundamentalist. Not to mention that we frequently don't know whether the artist is a Christian or not and I do not believe that this is the heart of any reasonable aesthetic. I am not happy with having what I've written twisted as if I am a philistine opposed to most of art because its manufactured by pagans. That is counter to much of what I've posted on this board. 

This was not the original question: it was about what I would have proudly displayed in my home. I suspose that if one wishes to display the objects of one's research, in the case of it being idolatry, that might be understandable. Let ne reiterate: Nothing that I've said has been aimed at "pagan" anything in a general, unspecified way. It's all been aimed at idols manufactured for that purpose in false worship. And then taken by me into my home for decorative purposes. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Jack K

Pergamum said:


> Should I stop shipping tribal necklaces home to supporters or family as souvenirs from living overseas?



For me, it would depend on how closely and exclusively they are connected to false religion. If the main reason the locals wear them is to ward off demons or for healing rituals, I would consider them occult artifacts and I, personally, would not give them as gifts. But if they're a part of everyday garb and happen also to be thought of by some as possessing a magical quality, I would consider the artifact to be simply a piece of local jewelry that can be viewed either rightly or wrongly by the wearer.

What do local believers whom you respect think of those necklaces? Would they ever wear one just as decorative jewelry, or would they only associate it with false religion? What would they think if one of your supporters came to visit you and showed up wearing one of those things?


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## nick

Displaying false idols that are used to harden people's hearts toward God in the name of "they look cool." No thank you.


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## a mere housewife

Dr. Strange, I personally could never confuse your position with the fundamentalism I grew up in, or philistinism -- it was what you said to me in answer to a question I asked that enabled me to once again read pagan literature.

I wondered if you or others could further clarify -- I had understood yesterday reading the various strands of thought in this thread, that what was most objected to was the *uncritical* imbibing of pagan art and artifacts of pagan worship -- the not putting them into an appropriate place in God's world. A mere object, like an idol, cannot be presented critically, and indeed, the act of using it as decoration often implies a reception and endorsement of it on a critical level. I wondered how this would apply when the 'effect' of presentation is of a more critical appreciation, as it is when one visits a museum. Most people, in decorating their homes, are not going for a museum feel (there is much in museums that is almost intolerably hideous in the oppressive belief system it so well conveys): we are presenting objects that reflect a wide array of other sensitivities than the merely educational. But some people's homes do look more like a museum, at least in certain places -- they are displaying a collection of what they are intellectually curious about, and the whole is conveyed in more of a critical light than my own display of Psalm 23 and 1 Corinthians 13: one instinctively grasps that the display is not about pride in the belief system, what they think is 'cool', comfort, or beauty. I wondered how the necessity of receiving things critically might apply differently in that instance. 

I have trouble thinking or speaking clearly in this whole area; but I do understood that the objection throughout the thread is to a display of idols in our homes, not to all pagan artifacts (and indeed I have no desire to display any idols in my own home). My own question arising from that, which may be taking the thread off track, is whether it makes a difference if the idol is more instinctively perceived as merely an artifact among other artifacts, because of the way it is presented.


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## Alan D. Strange

Heidi:

As is so often the case, I believe that you have put the problem well: I think that it is a question of contextualization. Let me illustrate: say I had visited a place and had some display in my home of the place that I had visited, part of which were its idols. I would have no problem at all with that as I consider that educative and not merely decorative.

I took the original post, and I think that it's a fair read of it, to ask about idols being used in the home purely as if decoration and made for display (as one would a painting or sculpture), in a context that would only appear to laud it (presumably one displays as art in one's home that which one regards as beautiful). I see a great difference between an idol made for false worship by a pagan and a book or painting of a prosaic sort. The original post seemed to suggest that there is no problem putting up things made as idols as if a painting or sculpture that one thought beautiful. To me, I would want to make the context clear in any such display in my home. 

All this is to say Heidi that the way you suggest to mediate this matter is, I think, correct. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Caroline

Alan D. Strange said:


> Again, I think that the focus of the original thread keeps getting lost. It was about idols made specifically for false worship: should we, recognizing that an idol is nothing, redeem it for use in home decoration? Some of us had problems with that, while other didn't. Understood. I qualified mine by noting that any number of artifacts might be owned or used for purposes of education/research and the like.
> 
> There has also been--and this is where to me the focus seems to get lost--a curious identity being made between anything pagan and the manufacture of idols. I do not agree that this is all the same. What is meant by pagan art? I assume that you mean art made by someone who is not Christian--this would, of course, condemn almost wholesale most of the great art, literature, etc. This is not remotely my position. Nor anyone else's but the veriest fundamentalist. Not to mention that we frequently don't know whether the artist is a Christian or not and I do not believe that this is the heart of any reasonable aesthetic. I am not happy with having what I've written twisted as if I am a philistine opposed to most of art because its manufactured by pagans. That is counter to much of what I've posted on this board.
> 
> This was not the original question: it was about what I would have proudly displayed in my home. I suspose that if one wishes to display the objects of one's research, in the case of it being idolatry, that might be understandable. Let ne reiterate: Nothing that I've said has been aimed at "pagan" anything in a general, unspecified way. It's all been aimed at idols manufactured for that purpose in false worship. And then taken by me into my home for decorative purposes.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



I'm sorry if you feel that I twisted your words (I'm not sure whether that was directed at me or others). I'm not sure how it is in every culture, since I have only extensively studied Egypt. In Egypt, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find art that didn't include pagan gods. The primary purpose of art was religious. Even the statues of the pharaohs involved worship, since the pharaoh was viewed as a deity. If one was going to have Egyptian art in his or her home, I can't think of much that wouldn't involve some religious purpose--you'd have to be selective to the point of excluding anything very interesting. Even the little scarabs that were used to send messages were also good luck charms. Art in Egypt was heavily controlled, which is why it all looks alike. Nobody was encouraged to be creative. And it was almost all religious. 

But one must concede that much pagan literature is similarly written for religious purposes--the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Greek myths, etc. That is generally the drift of my question: How does one differentiate between "art made by pagans" and "idolatrous stuff"? It seems to be a hazy line if one were to set out to find it. Some things would be obvious... a statue of Zeus in a temple, for example. But what about a decorative statue of Zeus in an ancient Greek garden? Would we need to know the context for which it was made? Would myths be wrong to have in the house because they were used as instruction in Greek religion? Would Greek plays be permitted even though they contain songs in praise of Greek deities? I realize that few people here think that all should be excluded, but it does seem to be a large gray area, and difficult to draw a definitive line on.

I do think that part of this discussion (as Heidi wisely and thoughtfully noted) simply centers on what people consider the purpose of home decoration. I have little use for cutsie drawings on my walls, and my displays actually have a museum quality about them. However, I concede that I am odd.

PS I posted this and then came back to the thread to find the follow-up remarks of Heidi and Dr. Strange. I think we are all basically agreed on the matter--it is largely context. I put Peniel Bible Conference photos on my wall. That is not to suggest that I agree with everything they did, but it tells an interesting story that fascinates me from many different angles. The same would be true of Egyptian art, were I ever to display it. In my mind, display does not demonstrate unquestioned endorsement, but merely deep interest in a complex issue, along with some aesthetic appreciation of the item.


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## a mere housewife

Thank you, Dr. Strange -- that helps very much with my remaining confusion in this area, along with Caroline's further statement about context. 

And thank you Joshua. I often think of framing your insights and displaying them in my home: not you understand, in the sense of decoration, but more as a museum like display -- suggesting . . . deep interest in a complex issue . . . and some degree of aesthetic appreciation, I suppose . . . (ie, these things delight me in you ).


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## gordo

...


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## M21195

Tim said:


> There is also this principle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thess. 5:22)
Click to expand...


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## SinnerSavedByChrist

Pergamum said:


> SinnerSavedByChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> We must then loathe the statues of buddha that the Taliban blew up?
> 
> We must hate the pyramids of Egypt for they were built due to false belief?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed I find them (the pyramids / Buddha statues) quite distasteful. When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how _demonic_ the statues of the maoris were. Made me angry just looking at them, knowing that satan had infiltrated the polynesian culture to the core and encouraged idolatry etc.
> 
> In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it. The aroma from burning such demonic material is most pleasing
> 
> 
> 
> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> can we say that pagan literature may be enjoyed (as nearly every Christian does), but pagan art cannot?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of". Having recently found "The Bruised reed", I think my extra-biblical reading desires shall fully be satisfied by such Godly writings as by the Puritans.
> 
> But I think overall, this is a matter of Christian liberty: if it offends anyone, then chuck it out. If you know in your conscience that idols have no power and that you are "en guarde" against the deceitful nature of such things, then by all means keep it. As for heathen literature - I find very little profit in most of them. I guess you can learn of their worldview? I find talking to strangers one-on-one is a very fast way to gauge what is "going around" in the current culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Michael:
> 
> 
> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I barely enjoy pagan literature. When I was a "weak" christian in my first 5 years, I voraciously read all kinds of books (Penguin classics, fantasy, crime etc...), of which "I am now ashamed of".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you believe that Christians need to be ashamed of reading Dante's Inferno and the Iliad and Herodotus?
Click to expand...


Hey Pergamum, 

This is indeed a very sharp question. My apologies.I should clarify why I quoted Romans 6. _"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death."_ I admit am not quoting this passage in it's proper exegetical meaning. I guess I should have quoted the _"redeeming the time"_ passage in Ephesians 5. 

For I have never read Dante, or Herodotus, or the Iliad. But I have read Shakespeare, Chinese mythology and other things like that. What I am saying is that there are some activities which are directly related to growing in Holiness, conformity to Christ, and in love for Him. I have spent thousands of hours in the past on watching secular TV shows, on reading pagan literature (often filled with commendation of lewd and sinful practices), on gaining "knowledge" for the sake of "knowledge". And what *eternal* profit do I have in them? Yes the end of those things is not as serious as "death" (Romans 6:20), but I gained no Godly profit from those things. Thus now I find them distasteful, and am extremely apathetic to heathen literature and heathen art. 

Unless ofcourse I am venturing into someone's culture - then I must use their understanding to my advantage in preaching the gospel to them. For example, I have had to spend some time to understand Muslims, their religion, their satanically-infiltrated understanding of "allah", their core teachings and their psyche. Those hours I spent understanding the muslims were deliberately spent, that I might preach the gospel in the manner that cuts right through to their conscience and convict them of their sin and folly in a manner most relevant to their worldview. 

I hope I have clarified what I meant initially. But your question is very helpful - I should pick my words more carefully!!!!


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## SinnerSavedByChrist

Tim said:


> SinnerSavedByChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I last visited New Zealand, it was amazing how demonic the statues of the maoris were.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and we should feel the same way about the totem pole of the North American Indian.
> 
> 
> 
> SinnerSavedByChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Taiwan, christians who had recently converted would fill up with disgust at all the "collections" they have procured over the years - artwork literally describing demons, ancestor worship, chinese mythology etc. They would take it all outside and burn it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Reformed Presbyterian Church is active in Sudan. I recall seeing a video of some Sudanese people singing for joy. What just happened? Well, they were new Christians and they had just brought their "objects" to be burned.
Click to expand...

Amen brother. Glad to hear that the RPC is doing work in Sudan. And indeed - the native cultures around the world are heavily bound by the power of Satan!! 

"Purge evil from your midst". There is so much I still need to purge from my life. All kinds of idols which I sacrifice my time, my thoughts and make provisions for.


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