# R.L. Dabney



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2008)

What Do You Think?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 5, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f29/what-thinketh-yall-robert-dabney-28917/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/southern-presbyterianism-r-l-dabney-21426/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/dabney-slavery-19703/


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## MW (Dec 5, 2008)

Given that "awesome" is the modern way of expressing the idea of something that is "terrible," and the unique way that word is used of Jehovah in the Bible, I can't understand why it has become a commonplace word for describing creaturely things amongst Christians.


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## turmeric (Dec 5, 2008)

Where's the option for "Never have read him"?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Given that "awesome" is the modern way of expressing the idea of something that is "terrible," and the unique way that word is used of Jehovah in the Bible, I can't understand why it has become a commonplace word for describing creaturely things amongst Christians.



We may have a cultural misunderstanding Rev. Winzer. In the U.S. for people my age "awesome" means as if the thing being described is "the best". Especially among those of us who grew up with Bill and Ted, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, etc...


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## Grymir (Dec 5, 2008)

Aw dude! Dabney is awsome. The best man. Hear that shoe on my head, yea, that's where the totally bodacious theology of Dabney is goin'!

All I need are some tasty waves, a cool theologian, and I'm fine!


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## MW (Dec 5, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> We may have a cultural misunderstanding Rev. Winzer. In the U.S. for people my age "awesome" means as if the thing being described is "the best". Especially among those of us who grew up with Bill and Ted, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, etc...



Ps. 111:9.

AV: "holy and reverend is his name."

NKJV: "Holy and awesome is His name."

NASB: "Holy and awesome is His name."

ESV: "Holy and awesome is his name!"

NIV: "holy and awesome is his name."

Imagine if a person went around saying "isn't that holy," of any and everything that they happen to like. The word would be emptied of all meaning. Likewise, the word "awesome" is emptied of meaning when it is used to describe anything that a person enjoys or likes.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2008)

Nevermind.


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## Herald (Dec 5, 2008)

You give three possible answers, all of which are complimentary. Your poll is rigged!


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## nicnap (Dec 5, 2008)

The man had some low points...but he was a prophet for sure. I love his writing.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Dec 5, 2008)

Occassionally, I'll turn to Dabney's Systematic Theology before reading either Hodge or Berkof. I have always found him to be very helpful.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2008)

Point goes to Elder Brown


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 5, 2008)

Only a good 'backwoods Presbyterian' would limit the choices to awesome or great.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2008)




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## LawrenceU (Dec 5, 2008)

Dabney is the man.


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## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2008)

To say 'awesome' is to attribute a God-given name to a human. I think.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 6, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > Given that "awesome" is the modern way of expressing the idea of something that is "terrible," and the unique way that word is used of Jehovah in the Bible, I can't understand why it has become a commonplace word for describing creaturely things amongst Christians.
> ...



Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcellent!

-----Added 12/6/2008 at 02:44:28 EST-----



armourbearer said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > We may have a cultural misunderstanding Rev. Winzer. In the U.S. for people my age "awesome" means as if the thing being described is "the best". Especially among those of us who grew up with Bill and Ted, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, etc...
> ...



Rev. Winzer,

Has anything terrible ever happened to you?

Adam


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 6, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> To say 'awesome' is to attribute a God-given name to a human. I think.



If this be the case then we should remove all adjectives of grandeur from our vocabulary.


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## Romans922 (Dec 6, 2008)

Unless you are talking about God.


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## Classical Presbyterian (Dec 6, 2008)

One of the most honored places on my shelf is reserved for Dabney's _Discussions_ and Girardeau. But they ARE expensive. A dear departed brother's widow gave my his copies.

For those interested, Dabney's legacy lived on in Austin for many decades after his death. At the Austin Presbyterian Seminary, his student, Dr. Griggs (who taught into the 1960's) would stand for every prayer in the chapel, long after the students and rest of the faculty ceased to do so. This loyal student of Dabney would instruct: "The only posture for prayer in the Bible is on your face, kneeling and standing." So, stand he did!

Dabney lives on in plenty of other places too!


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## DMcFadden (Dec 7, 2008)

We could skip the cutsy and go for a boring Likert scale response to a statement:

The format of a typical five-level Likert item is::

Strongly disagree 
Disagree 
Neither agree nor disagree 
Agree 
Strongly Agree


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## jwithnell (Dec 7, 2008)

Never thought I'd see a discussion that bridged "Fast Times" and Mr. Dabney! I think he and some of his students really helped to preserve the flame of a reformed perspective, particularly in the south. Not sure where this would fit in the poll!


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## TimV (Dec 7, 2008)

> Imagine if a person went around saying "isn't that holy," of any and everything that they happen to like. The word would be emptied of all meaning. Likewise, the word "awesome" is emptied of meaning when it is used to describe anything that a person enjoys or likes.



It's always nice to read your posts, Rev. Winzer, whether agreeing or not. It's good and healthy to be kept on one's toes, and all of us have benefited hugely from the time you take to set your writings in order.

I've recently finished an article you wrote (that I bought from Chris "Naphtali" C. ) and the time you put into it will allow me to put a large, prickly cactus into the britches of a guy who's pushing the FV here in the Central Coast of CA.

In this case, Adam has pointed out an inconsistency in your objection to using words because of their archaic meaning, i.e. their meaning in a foreign language. I'll also point out that both the NKJV and ESV use the word awesome twice in regard to an army with banners, so in this case you are being a bit restrictive, especially when you base your argument on something factually incorrect.


> and the unique way that word is used of Jehovah in the Bible.



To me, Dabney was a awesome cranky bigot and a parochial military genius who should have written one third less than he did, and I'm grateful for the other two thirds.

Now, where can I vote for that?


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## MW (Dec 7, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> Has anything terrible ever happened to you?



In the colloquial sense of "incompetent," yes. In the biblical sense of "fit to excite terror," ideally, not outside the knowledge of the holy; non-ideally, yes, there have been times when I have not consistently carried through on my doctrinal convictions, but these are not experiences I would be inclined to justify in the slightest.

-----Added 12/7/2008 at 07:14:00 EST-----



TimV said:


> I'll also point out that both the NKJV and ESV use the word awesome twice in regard to an army with banners



And in both cases the propriety of the speech is owing to the figurative nature of the writing which permits divine qualities to be attributed to the human subject.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 9, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> In the colloquial sense of "incompetent," yes. In the biblical sense of "fit to excite terror," ideally, not outside the knowledge of the holy; non-ideally, yes, there have been times when I have not consistently carried through on my doctrinal convictions, but these are not experiences I would be inclined to justify in the slightest.



So then, a term that has a particular reference in Scripture may be used in other contexts with just as good a point.

For instance, the Hebrew word for "holy" (speaking of holiness) is Kodesh. However, when the Hebrew authors wanted to describe those given over to sodomy, they use the same word, in many cases for those "given over" to their unnatural crimes.

Perhaps it would be inappropriate, therefore, to condemn in Benjamin what is common to languages: the same word in differing contexts can have differing meanings, even as you cited above regarding "terrible". "Awesome", to an American from the ages of 5 - 35, does not impugn the majesty of Almighty God, per se, when used of persons besides God.

Cheers,

Adam


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## MW (Dec 9, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> Perhaps it would be inappropriate, therefore, to condemn in Benjamin what is common to languages: the same word in differing contexts can have differing meanings, even as you cited above regarding "terrible". "Awesome", to an American from the ages of 5 - 35, does not impugn the majesty of Almighty God, per se, when used of persons besides God.



I don't recall condemning Benjamin. I only stated that I cannot understand the use of this word to describe creaturely things. Obviously you are over-reacting.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 10, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps it would be inappropriate, therefore, to condemn in Benjamin what is common to languages: the same word in differing contexts can have differing meanings, even as you cited above regarding "terrible". "Awesome", to an American from the ages of 5 - 35, does not impugn the majesty of Almighty God, per se, when used of persons besides God.
> ...



Forgive me, but stating that Benjamin's use of the term "awesome" to describe something he likes as *emptying a word of meaning *used in Scripture to describe God Alighty does seem like something very, very bad. What exactly would you call that? 

It is not obvious to me that I am overreacting.

Cheers,


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 10, 2008)

I amended the poll. Removed awesome as descriptive of a man and put in a few other choices


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## VictorBravo (Dec 10, 2008)

I'll be glad to see a discussion on the merits of Dabney sometime.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 10, 2008)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I amended the poll. Removed awesome as descriptive of a man and put in a few other choices




Why? Rev. Winzer has not come close to proving his point. We might as well disallow the use of "great" since God is described as "great". Do not forget about "Most" and "Very" et al.

Besides this was meant to be a rigged poll as the OP and subsequent posts maintain.


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## DMcFadden (Dec 10, 2008)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I amended the poll. Removed awesome as descriptive of a man and put in a few other choices



With the change in poll nomenclature, I should be listed as believing him to be a "Great Theologian" rather than a "Great Man." Due to public school education, it is sooooo very difficult for a Californian to see any supporter of the confederacy as a "great" anything [that is positive].


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## MW (Dec 10, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> Forgive me, but stating that Benjamin's use of the term "awesome" to describe something he likes as *emptying a word of meaning *used in Scripture to describe God Alighty does seem like something very, very bad.



Again, Benjamin was not personally referenced in that statement. An impartial judge possesses an ability to examine statements without turning them into a personal battlefield.


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## Grymir (Dec 10, 2008)

Aw man! Another honest poll gone the way of CNN. 

It was such a good poll.


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## Ivan (Dec 10, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Due to public school education, it is sooooo very difficult for a Californian to see any supporter of the confederacy as a "great" anything [that is positive].



How 'bout Robert E. Lee?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 10, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > I amended the poll. Removed awesome as descriptive of a man and put in a few other choices
> ...



I have discussed this type of thing before with Reverend Winzer. I am not sure I that I made a good call. but it is what it is. The topic was derailing the main topic. If you want to discuss this topic further start a new thread on the topic you want to question Reverend Winzer about.

Thanks for your patience Ben. 

Be Encouraged,
Randy


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## Grymir (Dec 10, 2008)

I strongly agree that Dabney is a great theologian with a deep philosophical slant.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 11, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Again, Benjamin was not personally referenced in that statement. An impartial judge possesses an ability to examine statements without turning them into a personal battlefield.



Context, context, context. All that we read ought to be taken in context, which is what I did.

Cheers,

Adam


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