# Eastern Orthodoxy and Personal Transformation



## Scott (Mar 23, 2006)

Interesting internal insight into the state of Eastern Orthodoxy's common failure to transform people: Reclaiming the Gospel. Evangelicals who want to convert need to know this.


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## turmeric (Mar 24, 2006)

This is a very interesting article - I think some of what he says could be said of us as well.


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## Scott (Mar 24, 2006)

His solutions are good. I think they would help most any congregation. 

His assessment of the spiritual state of Othodoxy is useful information too, especially for potential converts. Most converting to Orthodoxy from evangelicalism will expect that the One true Church (their percpetion) will at least have some spiritual power. If he is right, in many cases it does not. The elaborate liturgy, claims to apostolic succession, etc. do not produce godly lives. Evangelicals will still be interested in this. Most do not perceive that they are converting to an ethnic social club with little spiritual reality. Frank Schaeffer had a scathing post-conversion (evangelicalism to Orthodoxy) criticism in an article titled "The Seduction of Orthodoxy." It used to be available online but it is now gone unfortunately. I wish had had saved it to my hard drive.


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## turmeric (Mar 24, 2006)

Is Franky still in it?

BTW, with their take that theosis in this life is an option, they've got that Lordship Salvation problem, although I'm sure they call it something else.


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## tellville (Mar 24, 2006)

Yes, he is still in it. There is a strong Eastern Orthodox contingent where I live and the chaplain of my regiment (I'm in the Reserves) is Eastern Orthodox. He runs an apologetic type radio show that defends Orthodoxy as the one true Church that Christ founded on Pentecost. He has already interviewed a person who was converted because of the show. He constantly interviews converts to the faith. Anyway, he just did a recent interview with Franky Schaffer talking about his conversion here: http://68.150.133.198/orthodoxradio/audio/mp3/hq/20050605.mp3

The website is http://orthodoxradio.ca 

Sometimes it's crappy, so you might have to click the link a couple of times to download. 

I also posted more shows that may be of of interest in this thread:http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=14024

Reformed people think our apologetics against Roman Catholicism is good enough to refute Eastern Orthodoxy. This couldn't be farther from the truth. We NEED to start writing literature that deals with Eastern Orthodoxy in the same way Reformers wrote literature to deal with Roman Catholicism. Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholcism are NOT the same thing. 

There was a debate here in Edmonton between a Reformed univeristy Chaplain (Dutch Reformed) and an Eastern Orthodox monk. Needless to say, the Reformer got his touche handed to him on a platter. 

Listen to James White's debates against Roman Catholicism. Almost all of his points don't apply to the Eastern Orthodox. 

I hope on writing some essays on the Eastern Orthodox from a Reformed perspective once I graduate in April. I'll be taken at least a year off school before I do a Master's degree to catch up on reading and to figure out exactly what type of Master's I want to get. In this time I hope to write something on this topic.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 24, 2006)

Mark,

Are you familiar with this book _Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism?_

Amazon.com: Counterpoints: Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism: Books: Michael S. Horton,Brad Nassif,Father Vladimir Berzonsky,George Hancock-Stefan,Father Edward Rommen,James J. Stamoolis,Stanley N. Gundry


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## tellville (Mar 25, 2006)

Yeah, I own it. It's not really the best book there is. But then again, I got it the day it came out and at that time I was still strugling with Reformed theology. So maybe Horton's essay really wasn't as bad as I thought it was back then. Maybe it's good. I should read it again. 

The really crappy thing about the book is that Bradley Nassif writes the best essay, except he thinks we are compatible. 

On the positive note, at least somebody got off there touche and realized we needed a book like it!


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 27, 2006)

Mark,

Do you know of any Orthodox discussion forums?

I am very interested in interacting with some EO members.

I wrote an email to Michael Horton at the end of last year about the lack of attention the Reformed church gives to the EOC (it was in response to the Modern Reformation issue dedicated to Roman Catholicism). He expressed some interest in the problem and said, this year's MR issues are dedicated to Romans, but he will consider the EOC issue possibly for next year.

In a way the EOC is what started my journey towards the Reformation. That church pulled me away from Protestantism and eventually landed me back into the very roots of the protestant faith (which were unknown to me before). But to say that there is no longer a pull from that church would be a denial. The fact that most Reformed teachers are ignorant of what the EOC believes only helps add to the curiosity.

I live close to Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia so I know people who are currently students or who are alumni. They tell me they know little to nothing about the EOC mainly because WTS hardly touches that church (but focuses plenty of time on Rome).


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## Scott (Mar 27, 2006)

There is not much in the way of Orthodoxy b/c it is not that missionary in outreach. It does not cause much of an issue most of the time. There are a few exceptions, like the apologetic radio program you mentioned and a few other things. But they are rare. 

Keith Mathison's The Shape of Sola Scriptura deals with Orthodoxy separately from Catholicism.


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 28, 2006)

Dr. Jack Kinneer who was a minister in the OPC and is currently a minister within the PCA, wrote a 4 page summary that may be helpful. He has his Doctor of Ministry degree from St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary and is well acquainted with Orthodox priests and students.

He also has additional essay regarding Orthodoxy at his teaching ministry, Echo Hills Christian Study Center. They are located within the Essays on Theology section.


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## tellville (Mar 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> Mark,
> 
> Do you know of any Orthodox discussion forums?
> ...



This is one I use to frequent, very popular:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-convert/

Another one:
http://www.orthodoxforum.com/

Carm has one now too:
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Here is a list of all the major online Orthodox communities from OrthodoxWiki:

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Online_Orthodox_Communities



> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_In a way the EOC is what started my journey towards the Reformation. That church pulled me away from Protestantism and eventually landed me back into the very roots of the protestant faith (which were unknown to me before). But to say that there is no longer a pull from that church would be a denial. The fact that most Reformed teachers are ignorant of what the EOC believes only helps add to the curiosity.



I could copy and paste this part of your post and I would be telling the truth about myself 100%! This is probably one of the reasons why I wish there was more from a Reformed perspective on this topic. There is still a tug because while the Reformed make the most positive case (it is *cleary* the most *Biblical* and the most consistent with the Gospel) it has dropped the ball and has made no real effort to make a negative case for the EO. Thus, the EO gets to make its case without any opposition and one is left with that unfortunate tug. 

Reading Reformed people on the RCC I'd have to be a complete unregenerate moron to leave Reformation theology and go to Rome. Reading Reformed people on the EO I'd just have to be unregenerate


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