# Men Seeking Office in a Different Denomination



## JML (Apr 10, 2014)

This is a question for Presbyterians. How does it work if a man desires the office of elder in one denomination but is a member of another? For example, he is a member of a PCA church but is seeking office in the RPCNA due to his doctrinal beliefs. This is assuming that the reason he is a member of a PCA church and not an RPCNA one is that there is not an RPCNA congregation in his area.


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm sure some Presbyterian officebearers will jump in here with some helpful comments, but I'll just throw in my 2 cents as someone who has moved between NAPARC churches to pursue the ministry. My thought would be that it would be normal for a candidate for ruling elder to have been a member of the congregation on whose session he would serve for at a least a few years. That might be different if he had been ordained to that office in a previous denomination. As for students for the ministry, I would assume that a presbytery would wish to get to know an individual, observe his godly walk and submission to the church's government, and examine him prior to moving to ordination.

In other words, if one desires to serve within a church body in a particular office, the first step is to unite with that church. It is within the normal life of the church that a candidate for office should be observed and also learn the manner of his desired service from those who already serve.


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## JML (Apr 10, 2014)

Dearly Bought said:


> As for students for the ministry, I would assume that a presbytery would wish to get to know an individual, observe his godly walk and submission to the church's government, and examine him prior to moving to ordination.



I apologize. I should have specified that I was referring to teaching elders. Sometimes I forget the different office views. I was also thinking of a situation before it gets to the ordination process. I of course agree that for ordination that person should be united with that denomination. I had more of being under care in mind. Could a person be under care with one denomination in order to complete their studies and then link up with a different denomination to seek ordination is more of what I was trying to get at. I may be struggling to express the question correctly since I am not entirely familiar with the processes in denominations that use Presbyterian church government.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 10, 2014)

It's best that you ask that question to the RPCNA presbytery you intend to transfer to. They can tell you what they require for ordination and how much weight they will give to your work under care in the PCA towards their own required examinations.


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## JML (Apr 10, 2014)

Puritan Sailor said:


> It's best that you ask that question to the RPCNA presbytery you intend to transfer to. They can tell you what they require for ordination and how much weight they will give to your work under care in the PCA towards their own required examinations.



Hi Patrick,

I'm a Reformed Baptist. It was just a question out of curiosity on how that particular situation is handled.


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## Peairtach (Apr 10, 2014)

There's an anomaly with respect to this in the denominations I'm familiar with, in that a man who believes he is called to the teaching eldership(ministry) is expected to express his desire, whereas regarding the ruling eldership men are expected to wait to be asked, and it would be looked upon as pride or vanity to say, "I want to become a ruling elder" or " I feel I am called to the office of the ruling elder".

How is it in your own Presbyterian denominations, and how does this tally with Scripture?


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## iainduguid (Apr 10, 2014)

John Lanier said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > It's best that you ask that question to the RPCNA presbytery you intend to transfer to. They can tell you what they require for ordination and how much weight they will give to your work under care in the PCA towards their own required examinations.
> ...



To put some specifics into the question, we are an ARP congregation in Western Pennsylvania. We send many students to Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, where there is no ARP congregation (yet; we hope to remedy that in the next couple of years). A candidate who wanted to minister in the ARP would have two options:
1) retain his membership with us, and be under the care of our ARP presbytery, and become an associate member of a church from a sister denomination there.
2) transfer his membership to an OPC or PCA church, be under care of that presbytery, potentially even by licensed by that presbytery, and then seek a call from an ARP church.

Neither is ideal. In some circumstances, it would be better to do what a couple of our students did, which is to stay as members here and commute down to the RPCNA seminary in Pittsburgh. But there are ways to accomplish the goal under different circumstances. Presbyterians have a long history of recognizing that there are three ways of doing things: the right way, the wrong way, and an irregular way.


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## Edward (Apr 10, 2014)

It's going to be up to the Presbytery (subject to the rules of its denomination) to determine whether a man should be ordained as a teaching elder in that Presbytery. It might not be clear to some of the Baptists here, so I'll point out that an ordained teaching elder is a member of presbytery, not of the congregation which he serves. 

Transfers between NAPARC members should, in theory, be easier than a transfer in or out of the NAPARC family. In practice, it might be that a pastor from a liberal PCA presbytery may have more difficulty coming into a conservative PCA presbytery than would an OPC or ARP man.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 11, 2014)

John Lanier said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > It's best that you ask that question to the RPCNA presbytery you intend to transfer to. They can tell you what they require for ordination and how much weight they will give to your work under care in the PCA towards their own required examinations.
> ...



I see. The presbytery is responsible for the ordination of ministers, and _ordinarily_ you cannot come under care of a presbytery to prepare for licensure and/or ordination unless you are a member of a local church within that presbytery. I've heard of exceptions for men coming under care in a presbytery who are members of churches outside the presbytery (but still within the denomination), but I don't think I've heard of anyone coming under care who is a member of another denomination. Usually, you either join a local church and then come under care. Or you get licensed in your original presbytery, then join a new local church and transfer your license into the new presbytery as well. Once you are ordained, it is simpler, since ministers are considered members of the presbytery and can transfer their credentials over to the new presbytery when they are called by a congregation within that new presbytery. Hope that makes sense.


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## JML (Apr 11, 2014)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I see. The presbytery is responsible for the ordination of ministers, and ordinarily you cannot come under care of a presbytery to prepare for licensure and/or ordination unless you are a member of a local church within that presbytery. I've heard of exceptions for men coming under care in a presbytery who are members of churches outside the presbytery (but still within the denomination), but I don't think I've heard of anyone coming under care who is a member of another denomination. Usually, you either join a local church and then come under care. Or you get licensed in your original presbytery, then join a new local church and transfer your license into the new presbytery as well. Once you are ordained, it is simpler, since ministers are considered members of the presbytery and can transfer their credentials over to the new presbytery when they are called by a congregation within that new presbytery. Hope that makes sense.



Yes. Thanks Patrick.


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## Tim (Apr 11, 2014)

Edward said:


> It might not be clear to some of the Baptists here, so I'll point out that an ordained teaching elder is a member of presbytery, not of the congregation which he serves.



This is not the case in the RPCNA. I happened to ask my pastor about this very subject last Lord's Day.


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## JML (Apr 11, 2014)

iainduguid said:


> transfer his membership to an OPC or PCA church, be under care of that presbytery, potentially even by licensed by that presbytery, and then seek a call from an ARP church.



Does this happen often? Are these other denominations usually willing do this (under care, licensing) if they know the man is really seeking a call outside of their denomination?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 11, 2014)

My situation at the time I was licensed was not exactly the same, but when I was first looking for a call my candidates and credentials committee (whatever that particular committee may be called in your presbytery) knew that there were not many openings within the ARP at that time and actively encouraged me to seek a pulpit in a sister NAPARC denomination. I interviewed with RCUS, PCA, OPC, RPCNA, and ARP churches before being installed as the minister here in Ellisville, which at the time was "Independent".


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## Jake (Apr 11, 2014)

Tim said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > It might not be clear to some of the Baptists here, so I'll point out that an ordained teaching elder is a member of presbytery, not of the congregation which he serves.
> ...



Is this the case with any other Presbyterian bodies in the US? I know it's not generally the case in Dutch Reformed churches, but other Westminister-confessing churches?


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Apr 11, 2014)

An elder-at-large in the OPC who attends our RP plant here in Dayton has had his credentials recognized somewhat de facto. He exhorts on occasion from the pulpit in keeping with the RP practice to allow REs to do so from time to time with the blessing of our oversight planting committee, Southern Church Extension.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2014)

Tim said:


> This is not the case in the RPCNA. I happened to ask my pastor about this very subject last Lord's Day.



Thanks for the additional information about that denomination.


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