# Leaving Career for Seminary - Supporting a Family of 5



## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

I'm wondering if any of you have, or maybe know someone who has, left a full-time career to go to seminary? If so, how did you (or they) do it?

I've been in sales for the past 12 years and the sole bread winner for our household of 5. We have 3 children, 10, 8, and 3. For the past year or so I've been feeling a strong calling that I should be using my gifts to glorify God rather than to make a bunch of money. I've been praying about it and talking to the elders at my church and still haven't taken the plunge. My church supports men to go into ministry, but it is usually young men without children, and who still live at home, etc. So it is much easier for them to go to seminary. I'm selling my house and moving our family into a smaller place that is much easier to afford. Then I need to find a job that will support us while I go to seminary. My current job requires 50 hour work weeks and is commission based, so I woulnd't be able to go to seminary with this job. My ultimate goal is to earn a Ph.D. and teach in a university or bible college. The seminaries I'm looking at are Westminster California, Southwestern in Fortworth, Midwestern in Kansas City. Westminster would be the hardest option in terms of finding a place to live (CA. is expensive, that is where we currently live). Midwestern and Southwestern are in areas where housing for a family of five is very affordable. 

I'm open to other seminaries, but prefer a reformed seminary for my graduate education. 

I appreciate any advice you may offer. 

Blessings, 

Brett


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## arapahoepark (Sep 18, 2016)

RTS.
If your church can raise a 1/3 of tuition, they will wave another 1/3 leaving you with 1/3.
Also, if I remember correctly at RTS Orlando (yes, some people here will cringe that I mention it), Dr. Sweeting said that like 80 or more percent never have to take out loans there.

http://ligonduncan.com/pastors-need-to-know-more-not-less-for-less-not-more/

http://donsweeting.com/2016/05/09/the-pastoral-debt-crisis/


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> Westminster California, Southwestern in Fortworth, Midwestern in Kansas City.





Brett Barron said:


> prefer a reformed seminary



Southwestern isn't reformed. Southern Baptist in Louisville might be the better choice of the Baptist seminaries. 

Second career preachers that I have known have tended to remain at their jobs and go to seminary part time over a longer period of years.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 18, 2016)

Edward said:


> Second career preachers that I have known have tended to remain at their jobs and go to seminary part time over a longer period of years.


I was going to recommend that as a wiser course of action. I don't think it's wise to go into a lot of debt pursuing these things.

It may be wise to find if you can get a job that allows you to work around your Seminary classes. I would not recommend just quitting work altogether and incurring massive debt with your family living on school loans.


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## arapahoepark (Sep 18, 2016)

Another question to ask is what church or confession do you belong to?

Maybe you can get an MDiv online, part time while being mentored at your home church and either serve there or waiting to be called to another Presbytery or church.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 18, 2016)

Gentlemen:

I don't hear Brother Brett (and I don't know his ecclesiastical connection) saying that he wants to be "called" or a "second career" preacher or anything of the sort. Perhaps he does, but what I read is that he wants to earn a Ph.D. and teach in a university or Bible college. 

I could see perhaps the need for seminary training for Bible college teaching, but not necessarily for university teaching. I do not hear him saying that he wants to be a pastor or evangelist. I would not anticipate church assistance for someone wanting a Ph.D. to teach in a university. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2016)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I don't hear Brother Brett (and I don't know his ecclesiastical connection)



From his profile, more or less Baptist. (LBC for his confession, independent for his affiliation as I recall from an earlier look-see).


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## JingWei (Sep 18, 2016)

Brother Brett, 

I currently study at Westminster California and the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies (IRBS). If you have any questions about cost of living and paying for seminary, I would recommend you directly contact Mark McVey @WSCal, as he can help you think through some of the costs of living in CA. I would also recommend you email Dr. Renihan @ IRBS, as we may be embarking on something new that may interest you. 

Of course you can direct message me any questions, but I don't know if I can help much as I am a single man, so my living situation is quite different from yours. We do have several families here with multiple children, so it certainly is doable! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

delete


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

oops2


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

oops.


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

JingWei said:


> Brother Brett,
> 
> I currently study at Westminster California and the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies (IRBS). If you have any questions about cost of living and paying for seminary, I would recommend you directly contact Mark McVey @WSCal, as he can help you think through some of the costs of living in CA. I would also recommend you email Dr. Renihan @ IRBS, as we may be embarking on something new that may interest you.
> 
> ...



Thanks Kevin! I would definitely like to talk to someone you know who is currently going to Westminster Cal with a family. I currently live in Orange County, about 2 hrs North of Escondito. I have my house up for sale and we're planning on renting something near whichever seminary I choose. Westminster is a top candidate. I've considered online Universities, but most people I've talked to who are in the field discourage an online degree for people wanting to teach because relationships with the right people in Seminary can be key to landing a job in a competitive field.


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

Edward said:


> Brett Barron said:
> 
> 
> > Westminster California, Southwestern in Fortworth, Midwestern in Kansas City.
> ...


I know Southwestern isn't reformed, but Southern Baptist is too expensive. I hear Southwestern is a good alternative because they have better tuition and most of the professors believe in a Calvanist Soteriology. Midwestern is the other choice because most of their professors are reformed. They also have a nice fast track path from MA to Ph.D. for students not pursuing ministry.


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Gentlemen:
> 
> I don't hear Brother Brett (and I don't know his ecclesiastical connection) saying that he wants to be "called" or a "second career" preacher or anything of the sort. Perhaps he does, but what I read is that he wants to earn a Ph.D. and teach in a university or Bible college.
> 
> ...



Thanks Alan, this is correct. I don't feel a calling to be a Pastor or to Minister a church, I'd really like to teach at a college or university.


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## arapahoepark (Sep 18, 2016)

I apologize for misunderstanding.
An MA with a thesis would be the way to go. I would suggest RTS, any campus really. No doubt you'll get connected. It fits your idea of a reformed seminary. As for SWBTS, I don't see why not. Just keep reading covenant theology. No doubt you'll find RB's there! Great cost of living (compared to cali and where I live in Denver). 

May the Lord bless you on your endeavour!


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2016)

arapahoepark said:


> As for SWBTS, I don't see why not. Just keep reading covenant theology. No sdoubt you'll find RB's there! Great cost of living (compared to cali and where I live in Denver).



Heads up - there are some really bad areas near SWBTS. There are some really, really bad areas near RTS Jackson. There are some bad areas near Dallas Theological Seminary, as well, (is this a pattern?) but the immediate area is actually improving a bit).


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## Dekybo (Sep 18, 2016)

I can not speak to attending seminary with a large family, but I did take a year and a half at Midwestern. I had several professors who taught at the undergrad level while in their doctorate programs. I really enjoyed my time there.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 18, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Brett Barron said:
> ...



Are you sure you aren't confusing Southwestern with Southeastern? Southeastern is known for having Calvinistic faculty whereas Southwestern has a reputation for Anti-Calvinism. There may be a few Calvinistic faculty at SWBTS, but "most" of the professors are not going to be Calvinistic while Paige Patterson is President.


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## reaganmarsh (Sep 18, 2016)

Pilgrim said:


> Are you sure you aren't confusing Southwestern with Southeastern? Southeastern is known for having Calvinistic faculty whereas Southwestern has a reputation for Anti-Calvinism. There may be a few Calvinistic faculty at SWBTS, but "most" of the professors are not going to be Calvinistic while Paige Patterson is President.



Speaking as an SBC pastor, I was wondering the same thing. SEBTS has the Abstract of Principles (the same confession of faith as SBTS). SWBTS, while founded by soteriological Calvinist B.H. Carroll, has not followed suit. You'll find some Calvinistic profs at Southwestern, but not many. 

Anyway, I don't write that to discourage you in your pursuit of theological education; your thread just raised the question in my mind. 

What subject(s) do you hope to teach? 

Oh, and welcome to the Puritanboard!


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## Edward (Sep 18, 2016)

You don't give your starting point. Assuming its a B.A. or a B.S., you are looking at 4 o5 5 years to a Ph.D. You will then be starting at the bottom of the academic food chain. (Well, one step up from a grad assistant). What are your expectations for earnings at that point? What do you think your financial picture is going to be 10 years from now? 20? at retirement? Have you taken into account the likely disruptions to the educational industry?


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

Edward said:


> You don't give your starting point. Assuming its a B.A. or a B.S., you are looking at 4 o5 5 years to a Ph.D. You will then be starting at the bottom of the academic food chain. (Well, one step up from a grad assistant). What are your expectations for earnings at that point? What do you think your financial picture is going to be 10 years from now? 20? at retirement? Have you taken into account the likely disruptions to the educational industry?


Thank you, Edward. My starting point is a B.A. from Cal State University, Fullerton. Expectations for earnings would be enough to take care of the family, my main concern is really doing somethign I'm passionate about and serving God with my talents. I know God will provide. What likely disruptions to the educational industry? I have not taken that into consideration...


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## Brett Barron (Sep 18, 2016)

Pilgrim said:


> Brett Barron said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...



I was talking about Southwestern, but I don't know much about it. One of the places that we're considering to live is Dallas-Fort Worth Area. It has good school district for our kids, affordable housing. My wife is scared to death of the South Carolina Florida area because of the Hurricanes, but I don't know if that is an irrational fear, we just have no experience in that part of the country. Only know what we see on the news. We have some equity now so Orlando would be a good move financially, and they have good school districts. Just not sure about the hurricanes.


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## iainduguid (Sep 19, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > You don't give your starting point. Assuming its a B.A. or a B.S., you are looking at 4 o5 5 years to a Ph.D. You will then be starting at the bottom of the academic food chain. (Well, one step up from a grad assistant). What are your expectations for earnings at that point? What do you think your financial picture is going to be 10 years from now? 20? at retirement? Have you taken into account the likely disruptions to the educational industry?
> ...



Not to pour too much cold water on your dreams but Christian College and seminary teaching positions in America are really, really hard to get (there were over a hundred applicants for my position at Grove City College when I left), and as Edward correct;y notes that situation is likely to get worse rather than better (many Christian colleges are struggling financially and the political outlook for Christian colleges is unclear, not least in California). Starting salaries tend to be fairly low, and the number of adjuncts rather than full time professors is likely to increase in the years ahead. I only recommend people to do a PhD if a) they can get into a funded program that involves no debt, b) they would willingly sleep under a bridge for the privilege of studying their subject, whether or not it ever leads to a job and/or c) they are willing to go and teach in the Two thirds world somewhere, where the needs for theological education are great (but most of these are not paid positions; they involve support raising). It goes without saying that you ought to be at the very top of a seminary level Master's program (gpa 3.8+)...


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## Parakaleo (Sep 19, 2016)

Brett, welcome to the Puritan Board! As Dr. Strange has pointed out, if God is not calling you to ordained service, this would basically be a career change. Nothing wrong with a career change as long as you still provide for your family. Many people trade some level of affluence in exchange for a more fulfilling career. 

Could I suggest trying the distance learning program from RTS Global? Start by taking what interests you and see how well you do. These courses are about as close as you can get to sitting in a classroom! You can watch or listen to lectures, enter into discussions on forums, submit papers, take exams, and receive good feedback from your professor. Many of these courses are "at your own pace", but do take plenty of self-discipline!


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## Edward (Sep 19, 2016)

Parakaleo said:


> Could I suggest trying the distance learning program from RTS Global? Start by taking what interests you and see how well you do. These courses are about as close as you can get to sitting in a classroom! You can watch or listen to lectures, enter into discussions on forums, submit papers, take exams, and receive good feedback from your professor.



While the Rev. Duguid covered part of the disruption, the Rev. Law addresses another part by reference. With the increase of online courses, the need for bodies at the front of the classroom decreases. 

You've got a convergence of online learning, financial stresses on smaller colleges, the student loan crisis hovering in the background, the risk that an increasing number of students will do a cost-benefit analysis of majors (and what is a bachelor's degree from a third tier Bible college going to be worth in the market) and a growing official hostility toward Christianity. At the lower end of your target profession (and perhaps even at the higher levels), you'll be competing with preachers looking to supplement their income by teaching as adjuncts at a couple of thousand a semester,while you'll be looking for full time pay and benefits. 

I wasn't surprised by the full time / adjunct division at a place like Redeemer Seminary, but I was when I realized how few full time faculty members a school like Westminster Theological had. And while I haven't kept up with things, I recall that even the full time faculty at Reformed was on a one year contract, not a tenure. 

If your wife can make decent money with benefits working full time, and you could work sales during your masters, you could probably make the educational end work. But I expect whatever you do, you'll find yourself from necessity back in sales 8 years from now when your children start hitting college age themselves.


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## Toasty (Sep 19, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have, or maybe know someone who has, left a full-time career to go to seminary? If so, how did you (or they) do it?
> 
> I've been in sales for the past 12 years and the sole bread winner for our household of 5. We have 3 children, 10, 8, and 3. For the past year or so I've been feeling a strong calling that I should be using my gifts to glorify God rather than to make a bunch of money. I've been praying about it and talking to the elders at my church and still haven't taken the plunge. My church supports men to go into ministry, but it is usually young men without children, and who still live at home, etc. So it is much easier for them to go to seminary. I'm selling my house and moving our family into a smaller place that is much easier to afford. Then I need to find a job that will support us while I go to seminary. My current job requires 50 hour work weeks and is commission based, so I woulnd't be able to go to seminary with this job. My ultimate goal is to earn a Ph.D. and teach in a university or bible college. The seminaries I'm looking at are Westminster California, Southwestern in Fortworth, Midwestern in Kansas City. Westminster would be the hardest option in terms of finding a place to live (CA. is expensive, that is where we currently live). Midwestern and Southwestern are in areas where housing for a family of five is very affordable.
> 
> ...



You would need to consider that a lot of Ph.D programs are full-time programs. If you enter into a full-time Ph.D program and don't want to get into debt, then you would need to have a lot of money saved or have your wife support the family.

You can also consider finding out if there are any modular MA or Ph.D programs. You can take time off work to go to school for a certain period of time and then go back to work after the modular course is over.


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## Brett Barron (Sep 19, 2016)

This has all been great advice from everyone, I really appreciate it!! Does anyone know much about Redeemer in Austin or Dallas? I heard they had some problems with faculty in recent years.


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## Hamalas (Sep 20, 2016)

One clarifying question to add to the pile: you say you want a Ph.D so you can teach. What would be your area of interest? What are you hoping to teach specifically?


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## Edward (Sep 20, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> Does anyone know much about Redeemer in Austin or Dallas?



Someone living in Dallas or Austin would probably want to have Redeemer on their list for practical reasons, but I couldn't see anyone moving to the area to go there. 

I would expect that most folks here would find it too far toward the evangelical end of the evangelical -- reformed scale. And I wouldn't think that it would have much attraction for Baptists. As I recall from looking at the last batch of graduates, all were heading toward either Presbyterian (mainly, but not exclusively, PCA) or conservative Anglican positions. 

While I could give you more detail in a private message, the best broad summary would be that they had insufficient resources to satisfy competing visions. For now, at least, they seem to have settled on a path and most folks on board are, at least publicly, on board. 




Brett Barron said:


> One of the places that we're considering to live is Dallas-Fort Worth Area. It has good school district for our kids, affordable housing.



It also has some quite bad school districts. And unlike many places, the school districts don't match up with the city or county lines. Avoid the Dallas (DISD) and Fort Worth districts (although Dallas does have a handful of good magnet schools, you can't count on getting in one). Also avoid Duncanville and De Soto (I am less familiar with the Fort Worth suburban districts or those in the mid-cities). Highland Park is excellent, but housing would be outside of most of our budgets. Plano is very good, but has a few bad schools (pretty much the inverse of the Dallas situation, but fairly easy to transfer away from the bad ones). Frisco is excellent, but overcrowding is a problem with rapid growth. Allen good and improving, I'd rank Lewisville and Richardson slightly below Plano, Frisco, and Allen; and Garland another step below that. Coppell is excellent. Here's someone else's list https://k12.niche.com/rankings/public-school-districts/best-overall/m/dallas-fort-worth-metro-area/ that appears to be somewhat biased against the small rural districts. Consult the 'Great Schools' website and look at percentage of students getting free meals. 

As far as affordable housing, pretty much anything would look affordable compared to California, but the Toyota relocation has disrupted the local market as Californians have flooded in with large wallets and run up the prices.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 20, 2016)

I know that one does not enter into the theological instruction world for remuneration, but I cannot imagine a worse career path at present than pursuing an expensive and time-consuming degree which will qualify someone for a very, very few jobs that are extremely low paying.


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## mjmacvey (Sep 21, 2016)

Brett Barron said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have, or maybe know someone who has, left a full-time career to go to seminary? If so, how did you (or they) do it?
> 
> I've been in sales for the past 12 years and the sole bread winner for our household of 5. We have 3 children, 10, 8, and 3. For the past year or so I've been feeling a strong calling that I should be using my gifts to glorify God rather than to make a bunch of money. I've been praying about it and talking to the elders at my church and still haven't taken the plunge. My church supports men to go into ministry, but it is usually young men without children, and who still live at home, etc. So it is much easier for them to go to seminary. I'm selling my house and moving our family into a smaller place that is much easier to afford. Then I need to find a job that will support us while I go to seminary. My current job requires 50 hour work weeks and is commission based, so I woulnd't be able to go to seminary with this job. My ultimate goal is to earn a Ph.D. and teach in a university or bible college. The seminaries I'm looking at are Westminster California, Southwestern in Fortworth, Midwestern in Kansas City. Westminster would be the hardest option in terms of finding a place to live (CA. is expensive, that is where we currently live). Midwestern and Southwestern are in areas where housing for a family of five is very affordable.
> 
> ...



Hi Brett. You are welcome to contact me if you have any questions about Westminster Seminary California. Lord willing, we will have affordable housing opportunities (competitive with the other locations you mentioned)for students with families by Fall 2018. I would be happy to provide more information about this and some of our financial aid opportunities off-line.


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