# Is speaking to angels the same as praying to them?



## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2015)

Obviously, praying to angels is wrong. They are part of the stoichea and because of Christ's resurrection we are no longer under their cosmic rulership. However, we still (or at least many Reformed do) invoke angels in our liturgy. In the doxology we invoke, command the universe to praise God, including "Above ye, Heavenly Host." 

For the application. Our culture is currently battling Moloch the Dismemberer. Is it wrong to ask God to send Michael the Archangel to fight Moloch?


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## toddpedlar (Jul 25, 2015)

On the naming of the heavenly host in the doxology, or the trees and rivers in Psalm 98, I don't think we can glean any license there to start commanding rocks and things to worship the Lord (they already do in fulfilling their created purpose). I'm also not sure that really we are invoking the Angels in the Doxology in any sense other than to emphasize the rightness of all God's creation praising Him.

Re: Michael and fighting Moloch. The correctness of asking God to send Michael to fight Moloch hinges on several things - among them whether Moloch is more than an utterly fictitious being. If he is (as I believe) an utter non-entity, what would asking God to send Michael to fight him do? The specter of abortion does indeed loom large - and we do say that the practice is a modern representation of the children sacrificed to the false god Moloch... But really, don't you think that it is better to ask God to change hearts and minds (which is the real problem)? The problem isn't one of some false god but of the heart -and the only one I believe we ought to be asking the Lord to send in this fight is the Holy Spirit, who alone can change the hearts of men.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2015)

Is the spectre of abortion a fictious being? If not, then what is the difference between seeing that as a demon and seeing Moloch as demon?

No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.
~1 Cor. 10:20.




toddpedlar said:


> I don't think we can glean any license there to start commanding rocks and things to worship the Lord (they already do in fulfilling their created purpose).



But isn't that exactly what we are doing in the doxology?



toddpedlar said:


> I'm also not sure that really we are invoking the Angels in the Doxology in any sense other than to emphasize the rightness of all God's creation praising Him.



I know English doesn't really have cases, but wouldn't this be the vocative case, in which sense we are invoking angels?



toddpedlar said:


> But really, don't you think that it is better to ask God to change hearts and minds (which is the real problem)? The problem isn't one of some false god but of the heart -and the only one I believe we ought to be asking the Lord to send in this fight is the Holy Spirit, who alone can change the hearts of men.



Of course we should ask God to change hearts, but Paul commands us to be ready to fight against the spiritual powers in high places--which seems to be a little heavier than changing hearts.


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## Edward (Jul 25, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Is the spectre of abortion a fictious being?



Yes.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 25, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Is the spectre of abortion a fictious being? If not, then what is the difference between seeing that as a demon and seeing Moloch as demon?
> 
> No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.
> ~1 Cor. 10:20.



I'm not sure we have any warrant to believe that there is any entity "behind" abortion other than the pride of the flesh.



> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think we can glean any license there to start commanding rocks and things to worship the Lord (they already do in fulfilling their created purpose).
> ...



Yes, this would be in the vocative. So, when singing that, do you actually believe that you are singing to angels? And if you are, how do they hear? They are not omnipresent beings. (Any angels that happen to be present in the assembly could of course hear, but I think it's fanciful, and completely implausible, to believe that the whole heavenly host is present in any one assembly singing the doxology)



> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > But really, don't you think that it is better to ask God to change hearts and minds (which is the real problem)? The problem isn't one of some false god but of the heart -and the only one I believe we ought to be asking the Lord to send in this fight is the Holy Spirit, who alone can change the hearts of men.
> ...



Yes, this is true. However, if the true problem is the evil in human hearts, why would prayer asking an angel, who is utterly impotent to change human hearts, to fight against a demon, going to be useful or even commendable? What do you think Paul means there by fighting spiritual powers in high places? 


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## toddpedlar (Jul 25, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think we can glean any license there to start commanding rocks and things to worship the Lord (they already do in fulfilling their created purpose).
> ...



to add to my other remarks - if you look at Psalm 100, which the Doxology echoes, we also are speaking, in the vocative, to "All people that on Earth do dwell". Do you think that in singing Psalm 100 we are invoking, and actually addressing, the entirety of humanity?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2015)

toddpedlar said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > toddpedlar said:
> ...



Indirectly, yes. Eschatologically, I suppose.


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