# Being black and Reformed



## Tyrese (May 20, 2012)

Not to long ago I posted a thread on needing more Reformed churches in Black communities. Well this lead me to write an essay which was posted @ ReformedBaptistFellowship.org. I would encourage you all to read it. Please keep in mind that I am a Baptist so I wrote it from a Baptist perspective. But I think the subject matter applies to those of you who are Presbyterians.


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## Andres (May 20, 2012)

link?


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## jwithnell (May 20, 2012)

Tyrese, you offer an interesting perspective, but other than saying there is a problem, I don't see suggestions for changing the situation. Is there so much of a cultural divide that specifically black, reformed churches need to be formed? My churches have been welcoming to all, and though a few people from diverse backgrounds may come for a short time, it's rare for any to stay long enough to become members.

In the urban environment, reformed churches have had a tough go. If I'm not mistaken, the OPC ended a work in Washington D.C. after floundering for a few years; the successful intercity plants that I am familiar with (which is an admittedly narrow perspective) minister in neighborhoods that have not been historically black, nor are the communities attracting blacks now. I could see a real need to go into some areas of the rural south, but how would one gain a foothold? An outsider would have a very difficult time, and many people in these rural communities would still feel ties to family churches even if they haven't attended for years.

I ask these questions because I too have been uncomfortable with the largely educated, Anglo pedigree of so many of our churches. My interest is genuine.


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## Tyrese (May 20, 2012)

Hi J. Your exactly right that I didn't add suggestions for changing the situation. I did this on purpose because I think there are many ways that this issue can be addressed. I wrote only to spark interest, not necessarily to say how this can be done. Also your question, "Is there so much of a cultural divide that specifically black, reformed churches need to be formed?" This short answer is yes. I think there needs to be more honesty in dealing with this issue. There are many black churches, but sadly many that are not doctrinally sound. This is why I say there needs to be a reformation in the black community. By no means am I a civil rights activist, but I think many white people ignore some of the problems that actually exist. I would also like to say that maybe people who don't join majority white churches is because they a more diverse culture.

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ReformedBaptistFellowship.org


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## Unoriginalname (May 20, 2012)

I read your article and it is certainly interesting. I wonder though if some of this tension you brought up with the president and his support of such great sin shows that in many ways the black church is behind the white churches when it comes to controversies. Let me quickly explain, could it be that in many ways the Liberal/Conservative theological split in the black churches has not been forced yet? While this happened a while ago in the white churches could the black churches in many ways been spared (forgive the term) so far from having to distinguish a cultural christian identity from a true living christian faith? These are not rhetorical questions, I really do not have that much experience with "black churches." I am just curious if some sort of theological reformation needs such a controversy to truly to drive a line between those whose see the church as a sunday activity and those who want the church to be the Lord's agent. Maybe this type of controversy could open up a thirst for the real deal in spirituality, a thirst that reformed theology (also known as the theology of the Bible) could quench.


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## jwithnell (May 20, 2012)




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## Andres (May 21, 2012)

Tyrese said:


> There are many black churches, but sadly many that are not doctrinally sound. This is why I say there needs to be a reformation in the black community. By no means am I a civil rights activist, but I think many white people ignore some of the problems that actually exist.



I'm struggling to understand how it's white people's fault that many African-American churches have bad theology? What problems are white people ignoring exactly? I guess I am failing to connect what exactly you are proposing. Yes, I agree with you completely that the prosperity gospel is a false gospel and therefore needs to be challenged and replaced with the true gospel. And I might even agree with you that the prosperity gospel is more prevalent in black churches (it's also highly prevalent in predominantly hispanic churches) but I don't think I can agree with you that whites are somehow to blame for this. 

I'm not going to be naive and pretend that there isn't an obvious disparity between whites versus blacks/hispanics when it comes to the reformed faith. I personally sit at the Presbytery meetings where I'm often the only colored face in the room. But guess what? It doesn't bother me a bit. Would I love to see black and hispanic faces in our churches? Certainly! But I'd also like to see more white faces too! I see my church as a church for the community. That means black, white, hispanic, Asian, whatever is welcome. As long as we are not sending the message that a certain ethnicity or culture is _unwelcome_, then I don't see what else we should be doing. We do our best by God's grace to faithfully proclaim the Word of God and administer the sacraments each week. What are we missing that causes us to have no African-Americans in our congregation?

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I think you're speaking in generalities when you say,


> "Men and women will fly across the globe to spread the Gospel, but will not reach out and plant churches in very needy communities at home. It is very common to see Reformed Churches being planted in wealthy, high-income (majority white) communities.


Are these verifiable facts that you can back up? If not, then I don't think you're being fair to throw statements like this out there.


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## MightyManfred (May 21, 2012)

One of the three elders in my mostly white, Reformed Baptist church is a black man (who refuses to be called "African American" - because he is not African, as if that's a country). He desires us to plant a church in the medical center area of Houston - which is mostly black. He has a passion to reach black people (as did the Apostle Paul regarding Jews) but not at the expense of biblical ecclesiology or other important doctrines. Ethnicity should not be a part of what we look for in prospective members. The Lord brings people together as it pleases Him.


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## Supersillymanable (May 21, 2012)

Tyrese said:


> "Is there so much of a cultural divide that specifically black, reformed churches need to be formed?" This short answer is yes.



Now, please forgive me if I am wrong here, but surely we should _never_ have to form Churches that are based upon a majority race? The Gospel transcends _all_ boundaries of race, culture, background etc. We see Samaritans and Jews joyfully worshipping together in the early church! We see the Gentiles and the Jews worshipping together! Previous enemies completely reconciled by the Gospel. Maybe the problem is we are not taking the fact the Gospel transcends all boundaries seriously enough? Maybe it's that we're not making enough effort to make the connection with people who we are not culturally familar with? Just my thoughts.

Sorry if anything I've said has offended, or my tone has been wrong, I'm primarily concerned with whether things are Biblical or not...


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## Claudiu (May 21, 2012)

Andres said:


> Tyrese said:
> 
> 
> > There are many black churches, but sadly many that are not doctrinally sound. This is why I say there needs to be a reformation in the black community. By no means am I a civil rights activist, but I think many white people ignore some of the problems that actually exist.
> ...


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## Tyrese (May 21, 2012)

Hi Andres. I first want to say that I think that you made some great points. To be clear, I would never suggest that it is White peoples fault that AA churches have bad theology. I am simply saying that white brethren see the problem, but they don't think there is anything they may be able to do to help. I also want to say that there are many whites who are attempting to be cross cultural. Which is a good thing. But I really don't see this in my own church circles. I'm a Reformed Baptist, and I cherish the historic beliefs of my church, but that does not mean they are not in need of improvement. Also to your question about foreign missions. For over a year no I have watched RB churches being planted in communities that are predominantly white. You can do your own research online and I guereente you will find the same. It would be foolish for me to say that this characterizes every Reformed church, But the majority (especially RB churches more so than Presbyterians). I cant say to much about Reformed Presbyterian churches. Not to mention ive never even been to one. But I do know they have several ministries that are attacking this issue which is really good. But I'm not Presbyterian.

@ Stuart. As I do try and respect others to the best of my ability, I simply want to say that your African American elder is African American whether he likes it or not. Lol, its ok to be black. But I do think its awesome that hes attempting to reach out with sound doctrine. 

@ Lawrence. I am not implying that we should have only black and only white churches. I'm simply saying that this is the way things are. Its sad but true. I attend an all white church that i really enjoy. But every once in a while there's some cultural collisions. My point is that there should be an equal amount of solid black churches as there is white. And because there is not, the only help i can get to address this issue is the help of my white brethren.

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Sorry for any misspelled words. Its really difficult typing on my phone.


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## MightyManfred (May 21, 2012)

Andre - What is your basis for calling a person African American? When my pastor was in Africa, he mentioned that Americans call him such and a local woman jumped on him (metaphorically), pointing out that nothing about his speech, behavior, or anything else was African - of any country on the continent. This is not an issue over which to divide, but I am interested in your definition of "African American". My pastor was born in LA, raised by a Buddhist mother and saved while in college. What is "African" about him? His great-grandfather? If that is the rationale, he should be called by the country name of his great-grandfather, not the continent thereof. That's how it is with others who came here - Irish Americans, etc.


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## Pergamum (May 21, 2012)

> In some Reformed Baptists group’s foreign missions has been the topic of discussion. This is much needed focus since foreign missions is a part of the Great Commission. But I believe there can be a tendency to ignore the needy community’s around the church. Men and women will fly across the globe to spread the Gospel, but will not reach out and plant churches in very needy communities at home.



Can you explain why blacks make up about 12% of the US population but are woefully under-represented in foreign missions? 

(a possible answer: prior to the Civil War many black pastors went as missionaries and ministered in Liberia and other places in Africa. After the Civil War, blacks became more poor, urban and their churches on the whole got more and more unsound, involved in largely black politics, and their contribution to foreign missions dwindled. I am sure Jim Crowe is largely to blame, but I think it is a valid question to ask why US black theology is usually deficient and US black foreign missionaries are largely non-existent).

It seems that if the faithful black reformed believers that are out there led the way, we would not only see both a greater involvement in foreign missions in the black community but also see healthier black sending churches as well.

It is a common mistake to try to pit foreign missions against home missions. 

But laziness in one is usually accompanied by laziness in the other and vigorous effort in one is usually accompanied by vigorous effort in the other (a good follow-up question to mostly white Reformed Baptists is to ask them whether they are TRULY missionary-minded in reality or are just paying lip-service to missions, since the proof of the pudding is in the eating and we COULD be fielding so many more men and women overseas than we presently are).


So,

How do we mobilize more RBs, both black and white, into both foreign missions and US outreach? Tyrese, can you help me connect with US reformed blacks who would like to become long-term church-planting missionaries?


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## Andres (May 21, 2012)

Tyrese said:


> I am simply saying that white brethern see the problem, but they dont think there is anything they may be able to do to help. I also want to say that there are many whites who are attempting to be cross cultural.



I guess this is where I am missing it...what exactly is the problem? What should white people be doing to help? Why can't black people help? Please explain what you mean when you say whites are attempting to be "cross cultural". What does this mean exactly? 

Thank you in advance for answering some of these questions.


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## Pergamum (May 22, 2012)

How does a US English-speaking native-born white become "cross-cultural" to a US English-speaking native-born black?


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## Tyrese (May 22, 2012)

@ Andres. Good question. The problem as said before is that there are many black (and Hispanic) churches that are a theological mess. Now as I said before, its not exactly white peoples fault that this is so. Now I'm not sure what your background is, but I attend RB churches that are predominantly white (most have been all white). Therefore white people are the only group of people I can reach out to for help with this matter. As I said before I don't believe I have enough knowledge to say this about the PCA or the OPC because I'm not Presbyterian. Although I don't have any cookie cutter solutions, my main question (and possible solution) why not plant conservative Reformed Churches in minority communities. I'm not suggesting that white people should just dive headfirst into high risk, possibly dangerous communities. But there are plenty of blacks (at least in places that I have lived) who live in the suburbs. You mean to tell me no one has even considered these territories? At least in the Reformed Baptist community. Just recently I was apart of a church plant that desired to see more African Americans attend there church services. This area was divided into two parts. Literally right across the bridge lived extremely high income white families, and on the other side was low to middle class Blacks/Latinos. I bet you can guess were they decided to plant the church. It couldn't have even planted in the middle ????? when I asked about it I just received cold stares. As I said before there are Blacks/whites who are engaging this issue. But one of the things that I have noticed is that they are reaching out more to the city's. what about AA communities in the suburbs? These communities are usually dominated by false gospels. I personally think (now I'm open to being wrong) that a Reformed Baptist church, or a Reformed Presbyterian church could successfully be planted in these types of communities. Also to your last question, there are a lot of whites who are attempting to be cross cultural. For example my pastors are encouraging this very conversation that we are having. My pastors are attempting to understand where I come from, and the need that is present. There is enough care about the issue that they want to take the time to equip me to go out and share good doctrine. They desire to fellowship w/ people other than whites. Also there are a number of growing movements that are seeking to plant churches in urban settings. But again I've never lived in the city. I think Reformed Churches that are predominately white should train young blacks/ Latinos to go out and engage there own communities w/ sound doctrine.

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@ Pergamum. I think you understand exactly what I'm trying to say. I know its easier said than done, but more Reformed brethren need to mentor Black and Latinos to engage the communities were they come from. Now this is of course assuming that many Reformed Baptist churches have Blacks/Latinos in membership. It doesn't mean they need to leave there church, but simply to go out and seek every opportunity to engage another christian who knows nothing of Calvinism. Also to your question, "How does a US English-speaking native-born white become "cross-cultural" to a US English-speaking native-born black?". This is a good question. Keep in mind that even we as blacks have many differences. For example if I were from inner city Baltimore, I'm pretty sure Id be a completely different person than I am today. As I said to Andres, there are many blacks who are culturally not that different from whites. And these are the communities that I'm speaking of. If Reformed Baptist can reach out effectively in Africa (as Reformed Baptist are gaining ground), than it can be done here.


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## Pergamum (May 22, 2012)

Tyrese:

You wrote:



> more Reformed brethren need to mentor Black and Latinos to engage the communities were they come from



and



> why not plant conservative Reformed Churches in minority communities. I'm not suggesting that white people should just dive headfirst into high risk, possibly dangerous communities. But there are plenty of blacks (at least in places that I have lived) who live in the suburbs.



Good thoughts. I think I WOULD suggest that US pastors dive into those dangerous communities as well..since it is for the Gospel.

I know one church, Rockport Baptist Church in Arnold, MO (5-point Southern Baptist), who are helping several black elders plant an inner-city church in Saint Louis: Home Page for Rockport Baptist Church and the Gate Church: Leaders « The Gate St. Louis. 

I think the story is that Rockport (mostly white..maybe all white...calvinistic church in the burbs) loaned one of their elders, Bob, to help this new church plant. And now it is launched. It seems that it was an inter-racial partnership and it seemed to work okay (still in progress).

Our culture is not a culture of aprenticeships and we do most training in classroom settings. Maybe it is time for black, reformed folks to pair up with older white pastors who are open and, together, try to intentionally target black communities and do ministry together in sort of an aprenticeship fashion?



> If Reformed Baptist can reach out effectively in Africa (as Reformed Baptist are gaining ground), than it can be done here.



Yes. But, do you think there would actually be more racial tension between US blacks and US whites than African blacks and US whites? Maybe foreign blacks might be more open to white influence than US blacks due to history? 

Also, US churches are more willing to support me if I go far away to blacks in Melanesia. I would find it a lot harder to gather monthly support to go inner-city to the blacks in Saint Louis. The support funds would just not be there and so that is why I think most church-plants target areas which seem to promise some hope of pastoral support in the foreseeable future - because white, US church planters in the ghetto are going to starve if they need to live upon the tithes of the new black inner-city congregants. Maybe US churches need to be more mindful to support US inner-city church plants as well (home missions)....or loan out an elder like Rockport did.



Finally, I am serious about more US blacks needing to get involved in foreign missions. If a wave of US reformed blacks came out here to minister on the foreign field, they could set the example and give something for others to model and restore the state of black American missions to its pre 1830's or 1840's levels...and might shake black churches away from being inward-focused on their own disadvantages and see their potential to bless others, both around the world and in the next city (giving people a missional model will help them to be more missional both at home and abroad)....


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