# What do you think of Bob Jones College/University



## sojourner

I have checked out some online distance schools. ANd they are really expensive for me. ANyway, I found out a college --- a local college in my country that offers a cheap certificate in Biblical Studies for Women. I heard about Bob Jones University in the US. So what do you think about this college? I know they are Baptist, is it okay or not if I grab it. 

By the way, I am subscribed at Ligonier Connect I know its a online course but its not accredited right?


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## bookslover

A couple of people I know who graduated from BJU have said that they left the school with (1) a really good education and (2) a really bad attitude (it being a fundy school), and that it took them some years to grow out of the attitude.

Perhaps it's better now.

By the way, I think it's very amusing that the late Robert L. Reymond, one of the best Reformed systematic theologians in the country, earned all three of his degrees (BA, MA, Ph.D) at Bob Jones - and he went there at a time when a student could get thrown out of school if he were caught with Reformed literature!


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## yeutter

Bob Jones University is very fundamentalist; indeed it might be regarded as the flagship university of fundamentalism. They do not share the understanding of the doctrines of grace that Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, and others committed to the Reformed Faith hold.


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## Edward

The Bob Joneses - at least through BJIII - were into Freemasonry. The University has also shown that it was willing in recent years to compromise to keep the $$$ flowing. And as noted, it is fundamentalist in the worst sense of the word. 

While I'd generally give it high negative marks, one of the finest pastors I know got his undergraduate degree from BJU (about 6 decades ago).


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## Logan

While I don't have firsthand experience, I considered going to BJU and talked to some acquaintances who had attended. It sounded very legalistic. One individual told me he was black-listed for saying that wearing or not wearing certain types of clothing were not necessary for salvation. By black-listing him, he wasn't allowed to have any sort of a Bible study on campus.

Now that was his side of the story (and over 10 years ago), but my speaking with others corroborated this.


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## earl40

To go along with the above posts I have a story. My dad was at an event where BJU had representatives representing the school to try to get students to attend. Well if you knew my dad he was the most gentile man I ever met, yes I am biased but I have heard this from many other people. Well anyhow they, the BJU reps, were so cold toward him when he came by their table he was totally dumfounded as would any person treat anybody this way. All who knew my father and how he interacted among all men, with gentleness and respect, would be also dumbfounded. So dad comes home and relays his experience to mom and she says "Look at the shirt you are wearing." It was a fighting Iris Notre Dame T-shirt. We all laughed so hard over this though and the sad reality of the situation is that it appears the BJU school trains people to not love all our neighbors.


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## earl40

Logan said:


> While I don't have firsthand experience, I considered going to BJU and talked to some acquaintances who had attended. It sounded very legalistic. One individual told me he was black-listed for saying that wearing or not wearing certain types of clothing were not necessary for salvation. By black-listing him, he wasn't allowed to have any sort of a Bible study on campus.
> 
> Now that was his side of the story (and over 10 years ago), but my speaking with others corroborated this.



I hope also that The Lord has changed this also. For my story was approx. from 5 years ago.


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## DMcFadden

My old prof, Moises Silva was a Bob Jones grad before going to Westminster and getting his PhD at Manchester under Bruce.



> Moies Silva was born in Havana, Cuba, and has lived in the US since 1960. He has taught biblical studies at Westmont College (1972–1981), Westminster Theological Seminary (1981–1996), and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (1996–2000), where he was the Mary French Rockefeller Distinguished Professor of New Testament until his retirement. A past president of the Evangelical Theological Society (1997), Silva for many years had been an ordained minister of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.


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## Jake

I have heard that there is some Reformed exposure at Bob Jones due to a relationship with some Free Presbyterians nearby (the Ulster variety, i.e. FPCNA on this side of the pond).


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## bookslover

earl40 said:


> Well if you knew my dad he was the most gentile man I ever met...



Always nice to know about a committed Gentile....


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## mgkortus

I had several friends attend Bob Jones or other similar baptist colleges, such as Pensacola, Maranatha, etc. At the time (which was 10 years ago), Bob Jones was one of the few that was accredited. Those friends who went to BJU seemed to walk away with a better education then some of the other small baptist colleges.


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## earl40

bookslover said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you knew my dad he was the most gentile man I ever met...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Always nice to know about a committed Gentile....
Click to expand...


He was indeed that and gentle.


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## OPC'n

He's got a fantastic last name


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## py3ak

I know professors, both past and current, and many graduates, and have spent more time on campus than I would have chosen, but was never a student.

Academically, I think BJU will give someone quite a decent preparation for a career in their chosen field. In some ways, they may feel more freedom to be rigorously exacting than many other schools offering comparable majors. If someone might otherwise bumble through their four years in an alcoholic haze, the stricter environment might mean they absorb more.

Institutionally, the Reformed will probably always find some points of tension and discomfort, though there seem to be waves of greater and less acceptance depending on the administration. I have heard good reports on their courses relating to Biblical content, and less enthusiastic reviews of their courses in other specifically religious and Christian material.

I am never sure if a school is properly judged on the basis of its students; certainly many very fine people have attended BJU (for instance, Rev. Albert Martin), and yet there have also been students concerning whom it might be best not to inquire. But of which school could that not be said? Not everyone who has graduated from Oxford, Bologna, or Salamanca commands respect.


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## Alan D. Strange

I have a very dear friend who was graduated from BJU in the same class with Moises Silva and Ray Dillard. They were all influenced by Bob Reymond and other Calvinist-friendly faculty members (before they were found out and kicked out!). 

Reymond assigned Berkhof's _Systematic Theology_, which, in no small measure, led my friend to the Reformed faith. There have been periodic purges of Calvinists, quite ironic as such have been BJU's best scholars. It's hard to keep serious students committed to theology from becoming Reformed since so much of the soundest scholarship is Reformed. 

Peace,
Alan


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## py3ak

Alan D. Strange said:


> Reymond assigned Berkhof's Systematic Theology, which, in no small measure, led my friend to the Reformed faith.



Since then, they were at least for a time using Reymond's own text.


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## dbattles

I'm a 3-time graduate and a pastoral staff member at a Reformed Baptist church. 

Admittedly, some speakers at BJU can be revivalistic. Women have to wear skirts until supper time (but slacks or jeans after that). The seminary is officially "moderately dispensational" in their theology, similar to MacArthur -- even leaning Progressive Dispensational from some teachers. They are very conservative musically. 

BJU as an institution is not and hasn't been strictly opposed to Reformed theology. There have been many who have gotten kicked out for being Calvinists, but they were mostly those who were immature and exhibited "cage-stage" Calvinism. Mature Calvinists get along just fine. 

Students can attend Reformed churches, but there's a hesitancy against "New Evangelical" denominations like the PCA and OPC. This means that practically, Reformed BJU students attend Reformed Baptist churches (e.g., Reformed Baptist Church of Easley; Grace Baptist of Taylors), Free Presbyterian churches (e.g., Faith Free Pres), or churches with Calvinistic theology (e.g., Heritage Bible Church of Greer; Emmanuel Bible Church of Mauldin; Suber Road Baptist of Greer).

Michael Barrett, now on faculty at Puritan Reformed seminary where Joel Beeke is the president, was on faculty at BJU for nearly 30 years. The bookstore has historically been one of Banner of Truth's biggest resellers. The library has held the works of Edwards, Owen, Sibbes, etc. for decades. 

They aren't legalistic (they don't believe that obeying rules makes you right with God), but they are culturally conservative. Hopefully most of you know BJU isn't racist (though sadly I have some BJU-grad friends who lean that way). 

You will get an excellent education at BJU, learn from godly professors and staff, and hear (mostly) excellent preaching. 

I'd be glad to answer any other questions you might have.


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## psycheives

Dearest Leah,

Thomas is correct - Bob Jones University is the flagship and probably the most famous Independent Fundamentalist Baptist school.

*I could not more strongly advise against having any association with Bob Jones University or any Independent Fundamentalist Baptist organization.* The Independent Fundamental Baptist groups can be among the most dangerously legalistic and spiritually damaging of American churches. I know a number of individuals who have escaped from out of under IFB legalism and they can't even express in words what a relief it is to escape. Of all denominations, I would avoid them more than most other. PLEASE please educate yourself and don't make this mistake. If you are not familiar with IFB's, they are the type of legalistic churches that create man made laws that they use to bind people unreasonably. Some teach families unbiblical roles and power of husbands over wives and children, where women are forced into unbiblical places of submission. We believe in submission but not the way I've heard they often do it.

Example of how far they go per Student Handbook per Wiki. Students may be kicked out for these:
- Men under the age of 25 are required to shave and forbidden to grow any facial hair. If they grow facial hair, they can expect to be kicked out of the seminary. 
- These places often require dress code. Women are forbidden to wear pants and must wear skirts.
- Going to the movies is forbidden/sin? in the one's I've read about.
- Drinking any alcohol is forbidden. Problem is Jesus drank

When my brothers say "they are not legalistic" they mean that you won't hear someone stand up and promote "works salvation" intentionally. This is in terms of justification. But when the rest of us call them "legalistic," we are speaking with regard to sanctification. We are referring to their binding one's conscience and enforcing unreasonable rules upon individuals.

Bob Jones University - read the history and understand though they have made changes (no longer anti-black or forbidding interracial dating until the year 2000 per Wiki), but this is the history and I would argue, the "spirit" of the organization. Very legalistic.


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## sojourner

Thanks for your reply, and for your concern.


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## tabrooks

Edward said:


> The Bob Joneses - at least through BJIII - were into Freemasonry. The University has also shown that it was willing in recent years to compromise to keep the $$$ flowing. And as noted, it is fundamentalist in the worst sense of the word.
> 
> While I'd generally give it high negative marks, one of the finest pastors I know got his undergraduate degree from BJU (about 6 decades ago).



I wouldn't consider changing their utterly wrong policy on interracial dating 'compromise' (if that's what you are referring to).


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## Edward

tabrooks said:


> I wouldn't consider changing their utterly wrong policy on interracial dating 'compromise' (if that's what you are referring to).



I have more respect for an honest racist than I do for someone who would sell out a core belief for federal money or to help a political candidate. But you do understand that the policy was instituted after pressure from an Asian family that was concerned that their son was dating a white girl, don't you? Blacks weren't even on campus as students at the time the ban was instituted.


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## tabrooks

Edward said:


> tabrooks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't consider changing their utterly wrong policy on interracial dating 'compromise' (if that's what you are referring to).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have more respect for an honest racist than I do for someone who would sell out a core belief for federal money or to help a political candidate. But you do understand that the policy was instituted after pressure from an Asian family that was concerned that their son was dating a white girl, don't you? Blacks weren't even on campus as students at the time the ban was instituted.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure how that affects the discussion or changes the point in the slightest(?)


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## Edward

tabrooks said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tabrooks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't consider changing their utterly wrong policy on interracial dating 'compromise' (if that's what you are referring to).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have more respect for an honest racist than I do for someone who would sell out a core belief for federal money or to help a political candidate. But you do understand that the policy was instituted after pressure from an Asian family that was concerned that their son was dating a white girl, don't you? Blacks weren't even on campus as students at the time the ban was instituted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how that affects the discussion or changes the point in the slightest(?)
Click to expand...


You were the one who brought up the interracial dating issue. If you would rather talk about them starting an intercollegate program, we can do that instead.


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## tabrooks

The point stands. You seemed to indicate that changing their policy on interracial dating (black, asian, etc) was a 'compromise.' We should applaud their revocation of the obviously wrong policy (regardless of the evil motivations you seem to attribute to the decision).


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Psyche, I don't know much about BJU, and take your cautions to heart, though I must say I know some IFB congregations and pastors, and they are decent, godly folks. True, they are way off in a number of important doctrines, being Arminian and Dispensational. True, their view of how to please God is performance-oriented rather than grace-oriented, that is, what _they_ do is what counts, rather than what _Christ_ has done in their behalf, and that _is_ bad news—but I have compassion on them, and love some of them dearly. They will be—many of them—in the eternal kingdom with us. 

No doubt there are some IFB churches that are quite toxic, but there are also some that have a lot of grace despite their errors.


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## Edward

tabrooks said:


> The point stands. You seemed to indicate that changing their policy on interracial dating (black, asian, etc) was a 'compromise.' We should applaud their revocation of the obviously wrong policy (regardless of the evil motivations you seem to attribute to the decision).



Is there a post of mine to this thread that's been deleted that I don't recall, and to which you are referring?


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## puritanpilgrim

Robert Reymond received his BA, MA, and PhD from Bob Jones.


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## Edward

Leah:
I would recommend that you look through the student handbook yourself to see if it is a lifestyle that you would be comfortable with. (Calvinism is specifically addressed), but also see student conduct, the pass system, etc. 

http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf


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## PointyHaired Calvinist

I've heard they have mellowed but not on the important stuff. The head of the history dept is Free Presbyterian so there is a small Calvinistic presence there. They're not crazy fundy (that is more like Pensacola Christian), but keep an eye on the fundamentalist distinctives. Other than that I've heard good things about them.


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## TylerRay

Edward said:


> Leah:
> I would recommend that you look through the student handbook yourself to see if it is a lifestyle that you would be comfortable with. (Calvinism is specifically addressed), but also see student conduct, the pass system, etc.
> 
> http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf





> Facial Hair—Students with underclassman privileges are to shave each
> morning. Students with upperclassman privileges and graduate students may
> have facial hair that is fully grown in prior to the start of the semester, neatly
> trimmed and well maintained at approximately ½ inch or less.



No serious beards allowed.


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## Edward

TylerRay said:


> No serious beards allowed.



No serious *mustaches* allowed. Stricter than my high school four and a half decades ago.


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## Bill The Baptist

P


psycheives said:


> Dearest Leah,
> 
> Thomas is correct - Bob Jones University is the flagship and probably the most famous Independent Fundamentalist Baptist school.
> 
> *I could not more strongly advise against having any association with Bob Jones University or any Independent Fundamentalist Baptist organization.* The Independent Fundamental Baptist groups can be among the most dangerously legalistic and spiritually damaging of American churches. I know a number of individuals who have escaped from out of under IFB legalism and they can't even express in words what a relief it is to escape. Of all denominations, I would avoid them more than most other. PLEASE please educate yourself and don't make this mistake. If you are not familiar with IFB's, they are the type of legalistic churches that create man made laws that they use to bind people unreasonably. Some teach families unbiblical roles and power of husbands over wives and children, where women are forced into unbiblical places of submission. We believe in submission but not the way I've heard they often do it.
> 
> Example of how far they go per Student Handbook per Wiki. Students may be kicked out for these:
> - Men under the age of 25 are required to shave and forbidden to grow any facial hair. If they grow facial hair, they can expect to be kicked out of the seminary.
> - These places often require dress code. Women are forbidden to wear pants and must wear skirts.
> - Going to the movies is forbidden/sin? in the one's I've read about.
> - Drinking any alcohol is forbidden. Problem is Jesus drank
> 
> When my brothers say "they are not legalistic" they mean that you won't hear someone stand up and promote "works salvation" intentionally. This is in terms of justification. But when the rest of us call them "legalistic," we are speaking with regard to sanctification. We are referring to their binding one's conscience and enforcing unreasonable rules upon individuals.
> 
> Bob Jones University - read the history and understand though they have made changes (no longer anti-black or forbidding interracial dating until the year 2000 per Wiki), but this is the history and I would argue, the "spirit" of the organization. Very legalistic.



Bob Jones is an IFB institution and this fact is fully disclosed. This is more than enough reason for a reformed Christian to avoid this school, or at least to proceed with extreme caution. It is not, however, necessary for us to invent additional reasons based on questionable sources (Wikipedia is not a reputable source). No doubt some others could invent equally ridiculous reasons to avoid your own institution.


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## Justified

Bill The Baptist said:


> P
> 
> 
> psycheives said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dearest Leah,
> 
> Thomas is correct - Bob Jones University is the flagship and probably the most famous Independent Fundamentalist Baptist school.
> 
> *I could not more strongly advise against having any association with Bob Jones University or any Independent Fundamentalist Baptist organization.* The Independent Fundamental Baptist groups can be among the most dangerously legalistic and spiritually damaging of American churches. I know a number of individuals who have escaped from out of under IFB legalism and they can't even express in words what a relief it is to escape. Of all denominations, I would avoid them more than most other. PLEASE please educate yourself and don't make this mistake. If you are not familiar with IFB's, they are the type of legalistic churches that create man made laws that they use to bind people unreasonably. Some teach families unbiblical roles and power of husbands over wives and children, where women are forced into unbiblical places of submission. We believe in submission but not the way I've heard they often do it.
> 
> Example of how far they go per Student Handbook per Wiki. Students may be kicked out for these:
> - Men under the age of 25 are required to shave and forbidden to grow any facial hair. If they grow facial hair, they can expect to be kicked out of the seminary.
> - These places often require dress code. Women are forbidden to wear pants and must wear skirts.
> - Going to the movies is forbidden/sin? in the one's I've read about.
> - Drinking any alcohol is forbidden. Problem is Jesus drank
> 
> When my brothers say "they are not legalistic" they mean that you won't hear someone stand up and promote "works salvation" intentionally. This is in terms of justification. But when the rest of us call them "legalistic," we are speaking with regard to sanctification. We are referring to their binding one's conscience and enforcing unreasonable rules upon individuals.
> 
> Bob Jones University - read the history and understand though they have made changes (no longer anti-black or forbidding interracial dating until the year 2000 per Wiki), but this is the history and I would argue, the "spirit" of the organization. Very legalistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Jones is an IFB institution and this fact is fully disclosed. This is more than enough reason for a reformed Christian to avoid this school, or at least to proceed with extreme caution. It is not, however, necessary for us to invent additional reasons based on questionable sources (Wikipedia is not a reputable source). No doubt some others could invent equally ridiculous reasons to avoid your own institution.
Click to expand...

The fact about interracial dating is a rather indisputable fact (regardless of source), so I'd say it's a stretch to say psycheives is making up "ridiculous reasons."

For more sources see: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27845030/...univ-apologizes-racist-policies/#.VetOMTZREdU and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/2000-03/05/096r-030500-idx.html


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## Justified

Double Post


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## Edward

Bill The Baptist said:


> It is not, however, necessary for us to invent additional reasons based on questionable sources



Play fair, and forego the Ad Hominem, por favor. If something isn't correct, please correct it. I've posted a link to the Student Directory for easy reference. But don't suggest that it is not correct because she references Wikipedia, unless it is, in fact, not correct.


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## JBaldwin

I spent nearly 3 years at BJU, I went to BJU summer school extension in the 1980s, and my pastor was a BJU graduate and a very good friend of the Joneses--this was long before I became reformed. I would not recommend this school. I will not say any more lest I say things I shouldn't. If you want to know more, please pm me.


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## JBaldwin

Justified said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> P
> 
> 
> psycheives said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dearest Leah,
> 
> Thomas is correct - Bob Jones University is the flagship and probably the most famous Independent Fundamentalist Baptist school.
> 
> *I could not more strongly advise against having any association with Bob Jones University or any Independent Fundamentalist Baptist organization.* The Independent Fundamental Baptist groups can be among the most dangerously legalistic and spiritually damaging of American churches. I know a number of individuals who have escaped from out of under IFB legalism and they can't even express in words what a relief it is to escape. Of all denominations, I would avoid them more than most other. PLEASE please educate yourself and don't make this mistake. If you are not familiar with IFB's, they are the type of legalistic churches that create man made laws that they use to bind people unreasonably. Some teach families unbiblical roles and power of husbands over wives and children, where women are forced into unbiblical places of submission. We believe in submission but not the way I've heard they often do it.
> 
> Example of how far they go per Student Handbook per Wiki. Students may be kicked out for these:
> - Men under the age of 25 are required to shave and forbidden to grow any facial hair. If they grow facial hair, they can expect to be kicked out of the seminary.
> - These places often require dress code. Women are forbidden to wear pants and must wear skirts.
> - Going to the movies is forbidden/sin? in the one's I've read about.
> - Drinking any alcohol is forbidden. Problem is Jesus drank
> 
> When my brothers say "they are not legalistic" they mean that you won't hear someone stand up and promote "works salvation" intentionally. This is in terms of justification. But when the rest of us call them "legalistic," we are speaking with regard to sanctification. We are referring to their binding one's conscience and enforcing unreasonable rules upon individuals.
> 
> Bob Jones University - read the history and understand though they have made changes (no longer anti-black or forbidding interracial dating until the year 2000 per Wiki), but this is the history and I would argue, the "spirit" of the organization. Very legalistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Jones is an IFB institution and this fact is fully disclosed. This is more than enough reason for a reformed Christian to avoid this school, or at least to proceed with extreme caution. It is not, however, necessary for us to invent additional reasons based on questionable sources (Wikipedia is not a reputable source). No doubt some others could invent equally ridiculous reasons to avoid your own institution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact about interracial dating is a rather indisputable fact (regardless of source), so I'd say it's a stretch to say psycheives is making up "ridiculous reasons."
> 
> For more sources see: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27845030/...univ-apologizes-racist-policies/#.VetOMTZREdU and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/2000-03/05/096r-030500-idx.html
Click to expand...


I attended school there in the late 1970s and early 1980s. There was a strict non interracial dating policy then. However, I did not witness any type of racism, and I had friends while I was a student there of all races. I don't know what it is like now.


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## py3ak

Leah, it occurs to me that you are probably thinking about Bob Jones Memorial Bible College.
http://www.bjmbc.org

While there is patently a connection between the schools, it probably needs to be borne in mind that not everything (good or bad) will carry over from Greenville to Quezon City. The student handbook might be quite different, for instance.


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## Bill The Baptist

Edward said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not, however, necessary for us to invent additional reasons based on questionable sources
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Play fair, and forego the Ad Hominem, por favor. If something isn't correct, please correct it. I've posted a link to the Student Directory for easy reference. But don't suggest that it is not correct because she references Wikipedia, unless it is, in fact, not correct.
Click to expand...


Perhaps my post came off as being harsher than I intended. I was simply pointing out that theology should be a sufficient judge of the worthiness of an institution without feeling the need to look for other reasons. I was not suggesting that the reasons given were false, just that the source was questionable and that the whole exercise was unnecessary.


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## bookslover

Edward said:


> Leah:
> I would recommend that you look through the student handbook yourself to see if it is a lifestyle that you would be comfortable with. (Calvinism is specifically addressed), but also see student conduct, the pass system, etc.
> 
> http://www.bju.edu/life-faith/student-handbook.pdf



Wow! "Hello - we're going to micro-manage every single minute of your life while you're here. Enjoy!"

They even actually tell them to close their window blinds after dark. I'm amazed they don't tell students how many times they're allowed to inhale and exhale per minute!


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