# Should Christians Obey the Speed Limit?



## De Jager (Apr 17, 2018)

I think the answer is an obvious yes, but I have talked to so many Christians who just don't really think it is that important.

I live in Ontario where we have very slow speed limits:

80 km/h for most rural roads (50 mph)
100 km/h for divided highways (60 mph)

It seems as though many people treat the speed 'limit' as a speed 'minimum'. Therefore, when I go the speed 'limit', people crowd in behind me, and start tailgating.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the law is so very clear, and yet no one seems to obey it, not even the police. So if a law is never enforced, is it still binding? Should my conscience be bound by the issue? 

The accepted norm seems to be to travel approximately 15 km/h over the speed limit (10 mph over). I have never heard of anyone getting pulled over and given a ticket for exceeding the speed limit by that allowed buffer, but I don't see how that permits me to consciously disobey the law.

I thought I would get support from Christians when I talk about this, but they look at me like I am a nutcase. So am I a nutcase?


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 17, 2018)

Yes. We are to submit to our civil authorities.

Reactions: Like 2


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## OPC'n (Apr 17, 2018)

Yes, we should go the speed limit but I don't.


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## Cedarbay (Apr 17, 2018)

We used to live in a small city where the police would ticket anyone 3-5 mph over the limit and we all loved it. We saw many pulled over and figured they were "out-of-towners".

I've always figured obeying traffic laws is morally sound and helps us be safe.


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## Edward (Apr 17, 2018)

Don't forget the application of the Sixth Commandment (WLC 135 and 136)

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## Cedarbay (Apr 17, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> Yes, we should go the speed limit but I don't.


License and registration, please!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 17, 2018)

Since the law is not requiring you to do anything immoral, you should obey it.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## TheOldCourse (Apr 17, 2018)

There may be some room for nuance here. William Perkins, for instance, in _A Treatise of Conscience_, distinguishes between weighty laws which bind men to obedience for the necessary good of human societies, and lesser laws which relate to the well ordering of the nation but are not necessary to the society and carry a fine rather than substantive punishment. He concludes that a violation of the former is a sin before God with respect to 5th commandment duties but a violation of the latter is not as long as it is not performed in a spirit of rebellion and one is willing and able to pay the penalty for the violation. Here's a part of his discussion:



Spoiler

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## JimmyH (Apr 17, 2018)

Of course we should obey the speed limit ..... but .... in Palm Beach County a judge reprimanded police officers for bringing people to court for going a mile or two over the limit. He told the department that unless it is at least more then 5 miles per hour over the limit don't ticket the driver for speeding. So ...... I go 5 over the limit

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 17, 2018)

I think the way someone obeys traffic laws is a good test of their fear of God and desire of complete holiness in all manners of life. Those who truly desire all that is good will actually stop at stop signs, will obey the speed limit, will fully stop at a right on red, etc. Of course though we might be ignorant of these areas and need to grow, but once someone has that understanding I think it would be sin for them to disobey. This isn't to compare our holiness with one another, but rather to see how serious we are about obeying God even when we don't think others notice. I guess it could be summed up as "if we aren't quick to obey human institutions, what would make people think we would be quick to obey God?"

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## hammondjones (Apr 17, 2018)

Sometimes the safest thing to do is go with the flow, even if that is 10-15 over.

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## jw (Apr 17, 2018)

1 Peter 2:

Submit yourselves to *every* [lawful] ordinance of man for the Lord's sake.

Romans 13:

Wherefore ye must needs be subject [to the higher powers, God's ministers], not only for wrath, but also for *conscience* sake.

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## Ben Zartman (Apr 17, 2018)

I believe everyone should always obey speed limits. I normally do, unless absentmindedly I speed. But usually I absentmindedly un-speed.

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## ZackF (Apr 17, 2018)

JimmyH said:


> Of course we should obey the speed limit ..... but .... in Palm Beach County a judge reprimanded police officers for bringing people to court for going a mile or two over the limit. He told the department that unless it is at least more then 5 miles per hour over the limit don't ticket the driver for speeding. So ...... I go 5 over the limit


I thought 1 or 2 mph was within the margin of error of radar detectors anyway.


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## bookslover (Apr 17, 2018)

What speed limits? (whistles innocently)

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## ZackF (Apr 17, 2018)

bookslover said:


> What speed limits? (whistles innocently)



Cuing Sammy Hagar.....


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 17, 2018)

ZackF said:


> Cuing Sammy Hagar.....


He can't drive 55


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## arapahoepark (Apr 17, 2018)

No! Lol jk
I literally got a ticket last week in a school zone saying I was like 15 over. I swear that the flashing light was not on, which I thought was weird at the time, then I get pulled over. Otherwise, I was going the normal speed limit.


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## Jack K (Apr 17, 2018)

In some places, speed limits are an example of a law the authorities do not expect us to obey rigorously, and one they do not intend to enforce rigorously. As long as the authorities are pleased when drivers merely keep *close* to the limit, it is not rebellion against authority to do exactly that. So, no fifth commandment violation if the authorities don't care.

In addition, sometimes our sixth-commandment duties to promote safety may require us to slightly exceed posted limits. If I drive the posted limit or slower on I-85 through Atlanta, my slow speed may be endangering myself or others. Keeping up with the speed of the traffic around me is better.

Where I live, in rural Colorado, the authorities do care about posted speeds and it is seldom a safety hazard to keep to those speeds. So in my case I should obey the limits (except when visiting my wife's relatives in Georgia).

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## De Jager (Apr 17, 2018)

Jack K said:


> In some places, speed limits are an example of a law the authorities do not expect us to obey rigorously, and one they do not intend to enforce rigorously. As long as the authorities are pleased when drivers merely keep *close* to the limit, it is not rebellion against authority to do exactly that. So, no fifth commandment violation if the authorities don't care.
> 
> In addition, sometimes our sixth-commandment duties to promote safety may require us to slightly exceed posted limits. If I drive the posted limit or slower on I-85 through Atlanta, my slow speed may be endangering myself or others. Keeping up with the speed of the traffic around me is better.
> 
> Where I live, in rural Colorado, the authorities do care about posted speeds and it is seldom a safety hazard to keep to those speeds. So in my case I should obey the limits (except when visiting my wife's relatives in Georgia).


Interesting. Ontario is definitely one of those places where the authorities don't enforce the posted limits. In fact, there is a clause in our highway traffic act which stipulates that it is illegal to impede the 'normal' flow of traffic. 

Thing is, that clause should be subservient to the posted limits. If I am going the maximum legal speed, it should not feel like I am holding up traffic! But in Ontario it does, because the only people who drive the speed limits are 90 year olds...and scrupulous people like me. The rest view the speed limit as a minimum speed. I did too until the Lord began to convict me of this.

I am fully aware that I am bound by scripture to obey the civil authorities. It is something I take seriously. It is just hard sometimes when you try to do it, and you get tailgated by angry people. And it is harder still when Christians don't seem to think obeying the traffic laws are required.

For example, I have often heard the argument that it is safer to go the speed of traffic than to go the speed limit and have everyone pass you. But is that really true or just an excuse? Can't I trust God that he will reward the decision to obey the civil authorities? What if someone does attempt a dangerous pass and gets in an accideny and dies... is that my fault? After all, I was obeying the Lord...they were a law breaker.

Sent from my STH100-1 using Tapatalk


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## De Jager (Apr 17, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I think the way someone obeys traffic laws is a good test of their fear of God and desire of complete holiness in all manners of life. Those who truly desire all that is good will actually stop at stop signs, will obey the speed limit, will fully stop at a right on red, etc. Of course though we might be ignorant of these areas and need to grow, but once someone has that understanding I think it would be sin for them to disobey. This isn't to compare our holiness with one another, but rather to see how serious we are about obeying God even when we don't think others notice. I guess it could be summed up as "if we aren't quick to obey human institutions, what would make people think we would be quick to obey God?"


Thanks for this post.

Sent from my STH100-1 using Tapatalk


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## Deleted member 7239 (Apr 17, 2018)

Only if they drive a Christian car. My car is agnostic so the rules don’t apply to me.

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## SavedSinner (Apr 17, 2018)

We should obey the law, but in some states the posted speed limit is not the law (AZ, NV, Montana), so saying that all drivers who move at 10-15-20 mph over the posted speed limit are somehow breaking the law is not true. In most states drivers are required to not obstruct the flow of traffic---including drivers who stare at their speedometer needles. If you get a speeding ticket in a reasonable & prudent state, the police have to show that you are travelling faster than the vehicles around you. In AZ we have in most cases, no absolute speed limits, and we do have speed limit signs, but the sign is not the law. Overtake a vehicle in a 15 mph school zone at 14 mph and you will get a speeding ticket if caught, because you cannot pass in a school zone. Drive at 15 mph over the posted speed limit, you may or may not be breaking the law if everyone else is going the same speed.

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## Von (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> 80 km/h for most rural roads


Wow! Our normal in-town/rural speed-limit is 60km/h and yes, I do obey.


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## Logan (Apr 18, 2018)

I agree with Jack. I used to think that going the speed limit was moral: it was the law. But now I'm more of the persuasion that I should realize what the expectation is, after listening to an excellent podcast on law vs. legislation.

In some areas, it is "cultural" to go, say, five over and everyone, including the authorities, expect it (Texas, for example). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some authorities _set_ the speed limits at five under what they really want in order to account for that. 

That said, I personally feel most comfortable going the speed limit, but try not to cause problems by going slower than the "general expectation".


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## Herald (Apr 18, 2018)

Jack K said:


> In some places, speed limits are an example of a law the authorities do not expect us to obey rigorously, and one they do not intend to enforce rigorously. As long as the authorities are pleased when drivers merely keep *close* to the limit, it is not rebellion against authority to do exactly that. So, no fifth commandment violation if the authorities don't care.
> 
> In addition, sometimes our sixth-commandment duties to promote safety may require us to slightly exceed posted limits. If I drive the posted limit or slower on I-85 through Atlanta, my slow speed may be endangering myself or others. Keeping up with the speed of the traffic around me is better.
> 
> Where I live, in rural Colorado, the authorities do care about posted speeds and it is seldom a safety hazard to keep to those speeds. So in my case, I should obey the limits (except when visiting my wife's relatives in Georgia).



Jack, I live in Central Florida and I4 (Daytona to Tampa) is always on the top 10 list of the nation's deadliest highways. While unfamiliarity with the roads (think out-of-state tourists) and aggressive driving are leading causes of fatalities, the #3 leading cause is _driving too slow_. When I first heard about that I was sure the DOT was referring to drivers going under the speed limit. Not so. It was drivers going slower than the median speed of traffic. Rear-end collisions and side-swiping during lane changes posed the biggest threat to drivers who are not at the median speed.

So, should a driver obey the speed limit on I4 or not? I am going to leave that as an unanswered question.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Alan D. Strange (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> Can't I trust God that he will reward the decision to obey the civil authorities?



Izaak:

But is it really obeying the civil authorities when you yourself admit this?



De Jager said:


> Ontario is definitely one of those places where the authorities don't enforce the posted limits. In fact, there is a clause in our highway traffic act which stipulates that it is illegal to impede the 'normal' flow of traffic.



You are clearly not incapable of understanding that there are sixth commandment issues here and not only fifth commandment ones. If the civil authorities regard me as driving properly because I am going with the flow of traffic that is going, say, ten miles over the speed limit on the freeway, how am I failing to submit to them?

Why do you raise the question and insist on this scrupulous practice when you yourself admit that not only do the civil authorities not insist on it everywhere but, at least in some times and places, would find such punctilious observance to be detrimental to the safety and welfare of others?

Chris Hansen has, in Perkins' casuistry, pointed us in the right direction. There is nothing inherent in speed limits as there are in so many weightier laws. I believe most people here would know that there are places in the States (in some Western states) and Europe (the Autobahn, where it is unrestricted, has an "advisory" speed limit) that lack speed limits. Why? Because such are contextually and not universally determined. Killing and stealing are everywhere wrong (Romans 2: 12-16); "speeding" is not.

All of this is to say, that speed limits are somewhat arbitrary and if one is behaving in a way deemed appropriate by local civil authorities, even though one may be in excess of such local speed limits, then that is perfectly fine. And if the local authorities choose to fine one, submission to them is paying the fine in a timely fashion. Good stewardship and sixth commandment concerns should prompt us to seek to avoid such and to submit to what our local authorities believe to be fitting in the circumstance.

Our duty as Christians to submit to the magistrate (Romans 13), which I heartily embrace, does not mean that I am obligated to submit to everyone's interpretation of the laws but to what the civil magistrate himself requires. Should Christians obey the civil magistrate? This should be the question, and the answer is "yes."

Peace,
Alan

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## Username4000 (Apr 18, 2018)

What does one do in a place like California where it is illegal both to speed and to impede traffic, and people have been charged with both simultaneously? Seems like the only option is to avoid driving on that highway at all.


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## Dachaser (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> I think the answer is an obvious yes, but I have talked to so many Christians who just don't really think it is that important.
> 
> I live in Ontario where we have very slow speed limits:
> 
> ...


We should, but find at times that I will be traveling at the rate of the moving traffic, which can be faster than posted.


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## SavedSinner (Apr 18, 2018)

koenig said:


> What does one do in a place like California where it is illegal both to speed and to impede traffic, and people have been charged with both simultaneously? Seems like the only option is to avoid driving on that highway at all.



No, because almost all states even with absolute speed limits have in their law the requirement that you drive at reasonable and prudent speed. The laws were written for intelligent human beings, not computers in Google cars. If you hold a drivers license it is your responsibility to drive at a reasonable and prudent speed.

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## BGF (Apr 18, 2018)

As a Christian, of course I should obey the speed limit. Unless I'm in a hurry, well then...


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## SavedSinner (Apr 18, 2018)

SavedSinner said:


> No, because almost all states even with absolute speed limits have in their law the requirement that you drive at reasonable and prudent speed. The laws were written for intelligent human beings, not computers in Google cars. If you hold a drivers license it is your responsibility to drive at a reasonable and prudent speed.


Maybe Christians have a problem with this because so many ministers keep using speed limit signs as examples in their sermons.

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## Jake (Apr 18, 2018)

In normal driving conditions, I go the speed limit ±5mph. There are some roads around me that have a higher limit than I am comfortable with (e.g., a curvy 2 lane country road at 55mph) and some that have a lower limit than people often go, so I limit it to 5 mph over. I slow down more in dangerous driving conditions or when otherwise necessary of course.


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## De Jager (Apr 18, 2018)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Izaak:
> 
> But is it really obeying the civil authorities when you yourself admit this?
> 
> ...



Hi Alan,

Thanks for your response. Here is the exact clause in our highway traffic act:

*Unnecessary slow driving prohibited*
_*132 *(1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 132 (1).
_
The key here is defining 'normal' and 'reasonable'. Should not this vague clause be interpreted in light of the _clearly defined_ speed limits rather than interpreting the speed limits in light of the vague clause 132? The signs clearly say 'MAXIMUM'. So, for example, imagine the sign says Maximum 80 km/h, but the flow of traffic is 95 km/h (this is a very typical scenario).

In my simple mind, every single person in that flow of traffic is breaking the law. Therefore in order for me to keep the law and obey the civil authorities regarding the speed limit, I am forced to impede the flow of traffic.

Do you see my dilemna? The law is very clear, but it seems that it is not enforced. It seems that the authorities should interpret the vague in light of the clear, but it seems that they do the opposite.

Should I do the same?


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## Alan D. Strange (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> Do you see my dilemna? The law is very clear, but it seems that it is not enforced. It seems that the authorities should interpret the vague in light of the clear, but it seems that they do the opposite.



I think that the dilemma is one of your own making. I don't think that it's really a dilemma if the executive that enforces speed limit laws (which are by nature and necessity arbitrary) does so with some elasticity. You seem to resent the elasticity and want the "letter of the law" to be enforced. Once this is explained, as it has been (and you clearly give evidence of understanding it) to keep insisting on a wooden application of the law seems problematic for several possible reasons. 

I would agree with you if what was not being enforced was something sinful according to the law of God (stealing, killing, etc.), but what is not being narrowly enforced is something that's arbitrary to begin with and it's perfectly proper that it be enforced as the executive sees fits in attending to the sixth commandment (albeit unwittingly these days). 

Peace,
Alan

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## LilyG (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> *Unnecessary slow driving prohibited*
> _*132 *(1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon *except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances*..._



I think the exception here is also important. Just as excessive speeding endangers, so does impeding the normal flow of traffic. 

Many of us forget that.


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## VictorBravo (Apr 18, 2018)

It certainly must be contextual. It's been a long time since I've been somewhere where the normal flow of traffic exceeded the speed limit. In the Seattle I-5 corridor, normal traffic flow rarely reached the speed limit--usually it was half.

Where I live now, there is hardly any traffic on the highways, but there are vigilant highway patrol officers. Having interviewed them in various cases, I know the unofficially stated rule is to ignore up to 5 mph over the limit. But that is not a sure thing and entirely discretionary with the officer.

I have a relatively new vehicle with cruise control that I set at exactly the speed limit. Sometimes people pass me, sometimes I have to pass them, but my typical two-hour cruises to other venues pass by with hardly any drama other than the occasional wave to a passing trooper who knows me and my vehicle.

I agree that keeping from being a hazard takes priority over being absolutely scrupulous. But when that is not an issue, the clearness of conscience overrides mere minutes of convenience for me.

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## moral necessity (Apr 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> In my simple mind, every single person in that flow of traffic is breaking the law. Therefore in order for me to keep the law and obey the civil authorities regarding the speed limit, I am forced to impede the flow of traffic.
> 
> Do you see my dilemna? The law is very clear, but it seems that it is not enforced. It seems that the authorities should interpret the vague in light of the clear, but it seems that they do the opposite.
> 
> Should I do the same?



I appreciate this. I remember going through the same struggle of conscience at one time. I used to treat this as a willful sin issue, and even question my Christianity over it. My conscience was very hard on me. When I drove, my principle was to drive the exact same way that I would drive, if there were a cop following me at all times. Anything less would be dishonest. If I had to speed in order to pass a car, I wouldn't pass. And, when I failed, it was confessed as sin. Why would I choose to get so close to that magic number? Now it was willful sin. Don't I love Christ enough to stay away from this sin? Why not go 40 in a 55, just to make sure? What if my speedometer is off by a few mph...maybe I should go 53, just in case. Constantly looking at my speed, and the road. And on, and on, and on...

This went on for several years. The time I knew something had to change was when it almost cost my family their lives. There was road construction on the Interstate for about 10 miles with only one lane open, and, by the time we neared the end, I must have had 50 cars backed up behind me, the first being a tractor-trailer. When the lane opened, I merged right. He proceeded to pass me, except, when his trailer neared my door, he cut right, running us off the road, and onto the shoulder. I'm sure he was very frustrated.

Did God make me a steward of my family, so that I could put them in such an unsafe situation? The purpose of this law is for safety. And, there is no perfect number on the sign that corresponds to that. When it rains or snows, we are expected to go slower. So, I concluded that, when it is normal and safe to go the speed limit, I will go the speed limit. When safety requires that I follow the general trend of traffic, I will do so. And, if doing so happens to lead to a ticket, I will agree that I violated the number, and pay the fine with that explanation.

Blessings!

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## De Jager (Apr 18, 2018)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I think that the dilemma is one of your own making. I don't think that it's really a dilemma if the executive that enforces speed limit laws (which are by nature and necessity arbitrary) does so with some elasticity. You seem to resent the elasticity and want the "letter of the law" to be enforced. Once this is explained, as it has been (and you clearly give evidence of understanding it) to keep insisting on a wooden application of the law seems problematic for several possible reasons.
> 
> I would agree with you if what was not being enforced was something sinful according to the law of God (stealing, killing, etc.), but what is not being narrowly enforced is something that's arbitrary to begin with and it's perfectly proper that it be enforced as the executive sees fits in attending to the sixth commandment (albeit unwittingly these days).
> 
> ...



I agree that the speed limit is somewhat arbitrary to begin with, although I would like to believe that there is some science involved (based on vehicle capabilities, crash statistics, etc.)

There is no law in the Bible which says 'thou shalt obey the speed limit in the land; yea, and thou shalt be exceedingly scrupulous in doing so'. I know this. 

There is a law that says we are to obey the civil authorities because they have been given authority by God. Therefore, my understanding is that a traffic law, unless inherently sinful, is God's law, because it has been instituted by a governing body which he instituted.

I am naturally a VERY scrupulous person, bordering on OCD. This plays into a lot of my thinking. But I also must be convinced in my conscience that my actions are 'OK', because anything that is not of faith, is sin. This makes it tough for people like me, whose conscience naturally seems to place many restrictions and prohibitions on certain activities that most people, including Christians don't have a problem with. It at times feels like I am a prisoner of my own mind. Once people re-assure me that some 'grey' is OK, I generally come around but until then, I am a very black and white person.

I will have to read that bit from William Perkins. I thank you for your insights. It is very much appreciated.


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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2018)

Traffic deaths are rising in the US. Take a look at mangled guard rails and other signs of high-speed collisions and you'll see the problem. 

This is partly due to lower gas prices and an increase in the percentage of trucks and larger passenger rigs. I also believe drivers fail to see the danger of the unexpected. If you drive much faster or slower than expected, pass in the right lane, or dart in and out of the traffic other drivers cannot anticipate your actions and no one has a safe place to go.

Driving right at the speed limit is sometimes much slower or faster than what other drivers might expect. Within reason, go with the flow.


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 18, 2018)

koenig said:


> What does one do in a place like California where it is illegal both to speed and to impede traffic, and people have been charged with both simultaneously? Seems like the only option is to avoid driving on that highway at all.



Just one more reason to leave California 

Is there any success with contesting such a ticket? I’d think that ticket would get thrown out by a judge on lack of merit.

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## deleteduser99 (Apr 18, 2018)

Logan said:


> I agree with Jack. I used to think that going the speed limit was moral: it was the law. But now I'm more of the persuasion that I should realize what the expectation is, after listening to an excellent podcast on law vs. legislation.
> 
> In some areas, it is "cultural" to go, say, five over and everyone, including the authorities, expect it (Texas, for example). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some authorities _set_ the speed limits at five under what they really want in order to account for that.
> 
> That said, I personally feel most comfortable going the speed limit, but try not to cause problems by going slower than the "general expectation".



While in Texas I sometimes felt like I was taking my life into my hands every time I got on a Dallas highway, and going the speed limit was not safe. There’s a few daredevils on those highways too, ever so proud of their engines that roar like a ringing thunderblast. And the way they built some of those intersections, it’s move fast or get totaled.

Other situations you have to account for... you are next to a semi, or between them, in their blind spot... get out of there, pronto! The worst thing that can happen is for another driver to not have the presence of mind to quell the danger.

When I first got my license in Michigan my family made fun of my granny-esque driving. When my dad visited us in Texas with my family he could not help but comment on how rough my driving had become. It was a real change. I am back in Michigan, still recovering, and my wife does not clutch the door handle for dear life as much as she used to.

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## jwithnell (Apr 18, 2018)

I'm no fan of the political craziness of California, but in my time living there, I applauded the law requiring people to pull over so others could pass if 4-5 cars were stuck behind you. Pull outs were built into the system.


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## TylerRay (Apr 19, 2018)

Harley said:


> While in Texas I sometimes felt like I was taking my life into my hands every time I got on a Dallas highway, and going the speed limit was not safe. There’s a few daredevils on those highways too, ever so proud of their engines that roar like a ringing thunderblast. And the way they built some of those intersections, it’s move fast or get totaled.
> 
> Other situations you have to account for... you are next to a semi, or between them, in their blind spot... get out of there, pronto! The worst thing that can happen is for another driver to not have the presence of mind to quell the danger.
> 
> When I first got my license in Michigan my family made fun of my granny-esque driving. When my dad visited us in Texas with my family he could not help but comment on how rough my driving had become. It was a real change.


I can relate to this, although I haven't undergone a significant move--what has changed is my daily commute to work and my weekly commute to church. I used to be a very gentle driver, but I've learned to be rather assertive.



> I am back in Michigan, still recovering, and my wife does not clutch the door handle for dear life as much as she used to.


My wife says that I need a bumper sticker that reads, "Watch out for the dad in the minivan!"


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## JimmyH (Apr 19, 2018)

This thread has me more attentive to my driving since it began. I find that some of the time I observe the posted limit, sometimes I'm 3-5 mph over. Much of the time I am simply keeping up with the flow of traffic. 
As for bumper stickers, I've got an old favorite that I've never put on the car .... 
"Keep Honking, I'm Reloading."


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 19, 2018)

When I lived in Germany I had to take a written test to get my driver's license... over there the police don't stop people for speeding, but they have cameras all over the place that will take a picture of your car if you're going a mere 3km per hour over the limit. Fines are low and and you don't get in trouble unless you're going exceptionally over the limit. The mindset is that paying the "ticket" is simply like paying a toll.

It's an arbitrary law that the state uses as more for generating revenue than for safety. (Some here will remember that in the 70s the speeding limit was lowered not for an appeal to safety but for fuel efficiency and gas consumption.)

Of course, in recent decades our leaders and the "experts" have learned that we'll readily accept whatever governmental intrusion as long as it is linked to "safety" (especially to the "safety of the children"). 

If you don't mind paying the toll, don't worry about going over the "free usage" limit.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Apr 19, 2018)

Speeding endangers everyone on the road: In 2016, speeding killed 10,111 people, accounting for more than a quarter (27%) of all traffic fatalities that year.

Doesn't sound like a good idea.


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## Ben Mordecai (Apr 19, 2018)

There are limits to the extent that we can really obey the civil authorities even when they do not command sinful acts. There are simply so many laws on the books that we not only have to hire professional lawyers to help us in tricky situations, we have to hire legal specialists in very narrow fields because there is really no hope for anyone to even know the law at any time. This should put a damper on just how scrupulous we are about following the letter of the secular civil legal code.

The 5th commandment requires the obedience of lawful authorities because God delegates his authority to earthly representatives who in turn have a responsibility to those they exercise authority over and to God for how they use it. The goal of following the law is to make the magistrate's job in maintaining order easier and to show oneself a model citizen and so not profane the name of Christ among the unbelievers.

It seems to me that this question is not so much a question about speed limits as it is about how the nature of lawful authority relates to the type of obedience required. 

Take for example, my authority as a father. I have a right to tell me sons what to do within reason and my children have a responsibility to generally obey me. If I were to ask them to sin, they need to disobey me immediately. However, there are some things that I could demand of them which would not be sinful for them to obey but are excessive and unreasonable. For example, I could demand that they labor 16 hours a day and sleep on the floor. They would not be in sin for obeying, but this is a clear abuse of my authority. A child in that situation should not be vexed with conscience if they disobey their father's unreasonable demands. However, a child with a generally trustworthy father should generally obey him even if they don't clearly know why they are being asked. If I ask my children to do housework, they have a duty to obey me.

The speed limit is a difficult law to nail down because some magistrates actually desire disobedience because they want to extract money from drivers. They are abusing their lawful authority of regulating the safety of the public because what they really want is to bring money into their city coffers. 

The spirit of the law for the speed limit is that road safety is important. Christians should therefore follow this spirit and not be reckless. But we should not be vexed with nitpicking over 5-10mph here or there as we see best in our judgment.

Just as the spirit of the law of the tithe was that 10% of the food produced would fund the Levites, and yes, technically, this would include your 3 square foot spice garden, the real idea behind the law is that you provide a real substance of food. To be scrupulous in the area of spices is fine, even good, but it should carry with it a stronger desire for the weightier matters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jambo (Apr 19, 2018)

When you drive you should be driving to the glory of God. If you have an accident because of excessive speed how does that impact on consistent Christian witness?


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## Edward (Apr 19, 2018)

jambo said:


> When you drive you should be driving to the glory of God. If you have an accident because of excessive speed how does that impact on consistent Christian witness?



If you cause a wreck or a road rage incident by impeding traffic, how does that impact on consistent Christian witness. 



Harley said:


> While in Texas I sometimes felt like I was taking my life into my hands every time I got on a Dallas highway, and going the speed limit was not safe.



I remember Sinclair Ferguson speaking once about having to learn some new driving techniques when he moved to Dallas, specifically merging onto the expressway.


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## Gforce9 (Apr 19, 2018)

Edward said:


> If you cause a wreck or a road rage incident by impeding traffic, how does that impact on consistent Christian witness.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Sinclair Ferguson speaking once about having to learn some new driving techniques when he moved to Dallas, specifically merging onto the expressway.



It is funny just thinking about Dr. Ferguson driving in rush hour traffic in a big city....


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## Alan D. Strange (Apr 19, 2018)

Gforce9 said:


> It is funny just thinking about Dr. Ferguson driving



This reminds me of riding with Dr. Ferguson (I lived in his house back in the mid-80s when I went to Westminster in Philly) to Tenth Presbyterian Church one Lord's Day and, as we passed a country club golf course, he, who was quite a golfer (but never on Sunday!), remarked, "Look at them, worshipping gods of iron and wood when they should be going to church!"

Off-topic, I know. Mods can move it to the Sabbath section if they wish. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 1


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## Herald (Apr 20, 2018)

SolaScriptura said:


> If you don't mind paying the toll, don't worry about going over the "free usage" limit.


Ben,

Except in the United States most jurisdictions levy points against your license as well as fines. "Win" enough points and you lose your license.


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## Bill The Baptist (Apr 20, 2018)

Often traffic laws are oddly arbitrary. Here in Ohio, car and truck drivers are required to wear seat belts, but motorcyclists do not have to wear helmets. This strikes me as odd.

Reactions: Like 1


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## deleteduser99 (Apr 20, 2018)

Edward said:


> I remember Sinclair Ferguson speaking once about having to learn some new driving techniques when he moved to Dallas, specifically merging onto the expressway.



Indeed, the one time in Dallas you get mild traffic is on Sunday morning.

I didn’t know that the firm I first worked at in Dallas was one or two levels below Redeemer Seminary.

As for getting to my work there, what would have otherwise been just a half hour trip was usually over an hour. Always a jam, always an accident on US-75. Going back on topic, it got instilled into me rather early that my safe West Michigan driving habits would not suffice.



Alan D. Strange said:


> This reminds me of riding with Dr. Ferguson (I lived in his house back in the mid-80s when I went to Westminster in Philly) to Tenth Presbyterian Church one Lord's Day and, as we passed a country club golf course, he, who was quite a golfer (but never on Sunday!), remarked, "Look at them, worshipping gods of iron and wood when they should be going to church!"
> 
> Off-topic, I know. Mods can move it to the Sabbath section if they wish.
> 
> ...



That explains why he made mention of the golf courses near Auchterarder in “The Whole Christ” and in his lectures on the Marrow controversy.

In all seriousness, those lectures were used by God to rub the scales from my eyes.


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## Edward (Apr 20, 2018)

Harley said:


> As for getting to my work there, what would have otherwise been just a half hour trip was usually over an hour. Always a jam, always an accident on US-75.



You should have taken the train and walked a couple of blocks. I did, when I worked downtown. Not cheap, and slower than an unobstructed trip on 75, but far less stressful.


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## LilyG (Apr 20, 2018)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Often traffic laws are oddly arbitrary. Here in Ohio, car and truck drivers are required to wear seat belts, but motorcyclists do not have to wear helmets. This strikes me as odd.



Here in California, it is legal for motorcyclists to "lane split," which is insane to me.


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