# Imprecatory Prayers: Good or Bad?



## Romans922 (Feb 18, 2009)

I am currently for Imprecatory prayers, but I have been thinking about them lately.

1) In the Psalms when they are done, it seems as though they are always prayed against enemies which are opposing forces (armies/military). I've heard this recently and brought me to ponder the validity of imprecatory prayers towards individual people (example: Obama - as a person, not as president).

2) Are there other examples outside of the Psalms or examples where imprecatory prayers are prayed concerning non-military/army like groups? Like individuals who have slandered you or something.

3) How would someone who holds to imprecatory prayers (that we should pray them) respond to the verse which states that we should pray for/love our enemies?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 18, 2009)

God enough for God, good enough for me.


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## Knoxienne (Feb 18, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> God enough for God, good enough for me.



Amen.


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## Romans922 (Feb 18, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> God enough for God, good enough for me.



Right...any interaction with my questions to aid me?


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## Ex Nihilo (Feb 18, 2009)

Maybe with individuals we are to pray for their salvation, but also we are to pray for judgment on God's enemies generally and praise Him for their imminent destruction? And didn't someone else say in another thread that their destruction will be either the death of the sinful nature now or their eternal destruction later? After Jesus' death and resurrection, we know that if God chooses to regenerate the person who is currently his enemy, the judgment _was_ executed on Jesus, and it was a very good thing. But if the person is not regenerated and is ultimately subject to judgment, God is glorified in that, too.

To me, this is reflected in "hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done."

Someone else can say this better than I, but I'm just in a posting mood today.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 18, 2009)

Ex Nihilo said:


> Maybe with individuals we are to pray for their salvation, but also we are to pray for judgment on God's enemies generally and praise Him for their imminent destruction? And didn't someone else say in another thread that their destruction will be either the death of the sinful nature now or their eternal destruction later? After Jesus' death and resurrection, we know that if God chooses to regenerate the person who is currently his enemy, the judgment _was_ executed on Jesus, and it was a very good thing. But if the person is not regenerated and is ultimately subject to judgment, God is glorified in that, too.
> 
> To me, this is reflected in "hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done."
> 
> Someone else can say this better than I, but I'm just in a posting mood today.



I think you said it very well.


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## Blueridge Believer (Feb 18, 2009)

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 



2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day

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## APuritansMind (Feb 18, 2009)

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Reactions: Love 1


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## A5pointer (Feb 18, 2009)

I am in the minority on this. I do not think it is appropriate to pray these prayers. By doing so we miss their covenantal context. David's/Israel's enemies were YHVH's enemies. They were physical enemies that sought to harm and destroy His people in their land. A land YHVH had brought them into and dwelt specially with them. Victory over enemies was a promised blessing of covenant keeping. We however do not find ourselves in the same situation. To me praying these prayers is just as inappropriate as it would be for us to expect temporal covenantal blessings and prosperity.


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## Ex Nihilo (Feb 18, 2009)

A5pointer said:


> I am in the minority on this. I do not think it is appropriate to pray these prayers. By doing so we miss their covenantal context. David's/Israel's enemies were YHVH's enemies. They were physical enemies that sought to harm and destroy His people in their land. A land YHVH had brought them into and dwelt specially with them. Victory over enemies was a promised blessing of covenant keeping. We however do not find ourselves in the same situation. To me praying these prayers is just as inappropriate as it would be for us to expect temporal covenantal blessings and prosperity.



I see your point, and this must be true with regard to our personal enemies. But what about imprecatory prayers concerning enemies of the church?

Reactions: Like 1


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## A5pointer (Feb 18, 2009)

Ex Nihilo said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > I am in the minority on this. I do not think it is appropriate to pray these prayers. By doing so we miss their covenantal context. David's/Israel's enemies were YHVH's enemies. They were physical enemies that sought to harm and destroy His people in their land. A land YHVH had brought them into and dwelt specially with them. Victory over enemies was a promised blessing of covenant keeping. We however do not find ourselves in the same situation. To me praying these prayers is just as inappropriate as it would be for us to expect temporal covenantal blessings and prosperity.
> ...



Good thing nobody prayed it down on Saul of Taursus I just don't think it would be appropriate. Don't want to start throwing around proof texts but , Vengence is Mine and bless those who persecute you comes to mind. It just seems to me that NT peoples are to pray in favor of enemies rather than for their demise.


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## Ex Nihilo (Feb 18, 2009)

A5pointer said:


> > I see your point, and this must be true with regard to our personal enemies. But what about imprecatory prayers concerning enemies of the church?
> 
> 
> 
> Good thing nobody prayed it down on Saul of Taursus I just don't think it would be appropriate. Don't want to start throwing around proof texts but , Vengence is Mine and bless those who persecute you comes to mind. It just seems to me that *NT peoples are to pray in favor of enemies rather than for their demise.*



Well, I agree, but I think the two are not mutually exclusive -- we pray that God would put an end to their rebellion, through either salvation or judgment.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 18, 2009)

I read Lewis on the Psalms a while back; it was interesting. He made some really enlightening points but without a hermeneutic that puts Christ at the center he wound up viewing them as expressions worthy of a self-righteous bullied schoolboy, living on a very low spiritual plane. Some of the interesting points he made were that Christ (surprisingly to Lewis) found the Psalms adequate expressions for His own experience, that Mary's magnificat is also 'imprecatory' in its exaltations (the rich has he sent empty away), and that the judge in the Psalms is not just judging a case but is actively establishing justice: he is a hero, a 'giant killer'. Israel's national state is a picture of what is going on: it is not the reality of the imprecatory Psalms: the picture that makes sense of all the pieces is Christ Himself. The first gospel promise of all is the promise of justice: of punishment where it is due (the head of the serpent will be crushed); and of course Christ has meted out that punishment, by being the righteous 'victim': it is strict justice for Him to ask for judgment on His enemies. When we pray the imprecatory Psalms we are praying for justice to be established, in the same pattern as Christ's death and resurrection: we are praying for the continued triumph of the cross: we are not praying for 'revenge'. Like Evie said, we are praying that God's kingdom would come.


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## APuritansMind (Feb 18, 2009)

Here's Calvin on 2 Tim 4:14

But lest any person, by falsely imitating the Apostle, should rashly utter similar imprecations, there are three things here that deserve notice. First, let us not avenge the injuries done to ourselves, lest self-love and a regard to our private advantage should move us violently, as frequently happens. Secondly, while we maintain the glory of God, let us not mingle with it our own passions, which always disturb good order. Thirdly, let us not pronounce sentence against every person without discrimination, but only against reprobates, who, by their impiety, give evidence that such is their true character; and thus our wishes will agree with God’s own judgment otherwise there is ground to fear that the same reply may be made to us that Christ made to the disciples who thundered indiscriminately against all who did not comply with their views, 
“Ye know not of what spirit ye are.” (Luk_9:55.)


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## Thomas2007 (Feb 18, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I am currently for Imprecatory prayers, but I have been thinking about them lately.



I've done it in the past, but I don't practice it. I can't say I'm for or against it, just my experience was a little too overwhelming for me and I question if
it's something I should do. I would just say tread cautiously in this area.




Romans922 said:


> 3) How would someone who holds to imprecatory prayers (that we should pray them) respond to the verse which states that we should pray for/love our enemies?



For me this is an issue regarding our vs God's enemies. I think that people can be your opponent, or even your enemy as it regards the Gospel but not be self-consciously an avowed enemy of God. Then, I think, their are those that are self-consciously avowed enemies of God. That, I guess is how I distinguish between the two.


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## A5pointer (Feb 18, 2009)

APuritansMind said:


> Here's Calvin on 2 Tim 4:14
> 
> But lest any person, by falsely imitating the Apostle, should rashly utter similar imprecations, there are three things here that deserve notice. First, let us not avenge the injuries done to ourselves, lest self-love and a regard to our private advantage should move us violently, as frequently happens. Secondly, while we maintain the glory of God, let us not mingle with it our own passions, which always disturb good order. Thirdly, let us not pronounce sentence against every person without discrimination, but only against reprobates, who, by their impiety, give evidence that such is their true character; and thus our wishes will agree with God’s own judgment otherwise there is ground to fear that the same reply may be made to us that Christ made to the disciples who thundered indiscriminately against all who did not comply with their views,
> “Ye know not of what spirit ye are.” (Luk_9:55.)



Seretus sure wished John and his freinds didn't fell this way


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## APuritansMind (Feb 18, 2009)




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## a mere housewife (Feb 18, 2009)

A5pointer said:


> APuritansMind said:
> 
> 
> > Here's Calvin on 2 Tim 4:14
> ...



John Calvin actually advocated that Servetus not be put to death.


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## etexas (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't do them. No Theological reason, I am part Irish, I just get in some ones face a scream at them until I feel better.


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## Theognome (Feb 18, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I am currently for Imprecatory prayers, but I have been thinking about them lately.
> 
> 1) In the Psalms when they are done, it seems as though they are always prayed against enemies which are opposing forces (armies/military). I've heard this recently and brought me to ponder the validity of imprecatory prayers towards individual people (example: Obama - as a person, not as president).
> 
> ...




I'm at work and don't have all my resources handy, but I've always understood imprecatory prayers to be primarily group specific as opposed to individuals. Regarding individuals, Shimei comes to mind of someone who David didn't pray against, but did ask his son to 'take care of'. 

Theognome


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## Hippo (Feb 18, 2009)

As fallen men with fallen natures I find it appaling that we would even consider imprectory prayers. We are commanded to love our enemies and we should be aware that we were no better than the vileist of sinners.

We should pray that God's will be done, and if that includes punishment for the ungodly, then all well and good but that is God's call not ours.


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## Knoxienne (Feb 18, 2009)

etexas said:


> I don't do them. No Theological reason, I am part Irish, I just get in some ones face a scream at them until I feel better.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 18, 2009)

Hippo said:


> As fallen men with fallen natures I find it appaling that we would even consider imprectory prayers. We are commanded to love our enemies and we should be aware that we were no better than the vileist of sinners.
> 
> We should pray that God's will be done, and if that includes punishment for the ungodly, then all well and good but that is God's call not ours.




I was thinking though, that as fallen people we are not very well able to judge which Psalms we should sing from our hearts as we are commanded to do? These psalms were penned by fallen men. I agree that when Christ says to pray for those who spitefully use us He is not instructing us to pray for personal revenge and for their destruction; but I think that understanding the Psalms in primary reference to Christ and then in terms of the church in the world, 'the woman' who is persecuted by the dragon, we can pray these things. I read Mark Jones say that he actually advises people to pray through the Psalms as a means of gaining assurance, knowing 'which side' we are on re: the church and the world. When I hear about a lady who is told either to renounce her faith or watch her children burn alive before her eyes, though I don't pray against individuals yes I do pray that such terrible evil and opposition to God's people would be destroyed from the earth and that Christ's people would be vindicated.


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## Theogenes (Feb 18, 2009)

How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?

Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.


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## A5pointer (Feb 18, 2009)

a mere housewife said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > APuritansMind said:
> ...



Not sure you got that right. I have read that Calvin was for be-heading not burning as a more cicilized execution. Don't get me wrong I am a huge admirer of Calvin.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks for the correction: my husband corrected me as well, but I had my hands full with burning his dinner  (he advocated for beheading it).

I'm told that I mistook his warning Servetus to stay away, and then trying to get a less painful form of death for him, for somehow confusing myself into thinking that he tried to get him exiled.

-----Added 2/18/2009 at 09:00:35 EST-----



Theogenes said:


> How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> 
> Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.



I was wondering if maybe a reconciliation is found in God's hidden decrees and His known will: when we pray for the church to triumph in the world, we are praying for an elect church that transcends our own moment in time, and may include some of our present 'enemies'. & wouldn't we be praying, in praying for the church's triumph, that people in the world will be drawn to Christ? But on that imprecatory level we're praying against God's enemies, and don't know who they ultimately are because that's hidden in His decree. Whereas, with OUR enemies, God's revealed will is that we are to pray for their good, and repay kindness for evil (and would it perhaps even be part of the triumph of the church over the world too, when we do)?


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## kalawine (Feb 18, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe with individuals we are to pray for their salvation, but also we are to pray for judgment on God's enemies generally and praise Him for their imminent destruction? And didn't someone else say in another thread that their destruction will be either the death of the sinful nature now or their eternal destruction later? After Jesus' death and resurrection, we know that if God chooses to regenerate the person who is currently his enemy, the judgment _was_ executed on Jesus, and it was a very good thing. But if the person is not regenerated and is ultimately subject to judgment, God is glorified in that, too.
> ...





-----Added 2/18/2009 at 09:12:59 EST-----



A5pointer said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> > A5pointer said:
> ...



Sometimes I pray this way... "Father, if it is your will to save this person (an enemy/troublemaker) please save them with my blessing. But if they are not elect and they are in the way of your will, please take them out of the way in whatever way you please." I never pray for anyone's destruction but I don't want to pray for blessings on God's enemies. "Thy will be done" is always a good prayer.


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## Confessor (Feb 18, 2009)

This is kind of tied to the thread, but if we are not supposed to inflict revenge on anyone else, is it alright to ask God to do this? Or is this the same in principle?

When the Psalmists ask for God to break the teeth of the wicked, etc., is this supposed to be purely divine justice, or is it also requested as a means of revenge?


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## Theognome (Feb 18, 2009)

Theogenes said:


> How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> 
> Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.



If Matthew 5:44 denied the validity of imprecatory prayers, then it would make the prayers of David (like Psalm 58) at odds with it. I'm not ready to accept such a proposition, as such prayers are ultimately seeking judgment. The judgment of the Lord is definitely something that is neither abrogated nor passed away in Christ- rather, it is given even greater clarity through the NT... cumulating in the Second Coming.

If I use a man-centered idea of what is love or good, I could not reconcile this. However, Matthew does not state or even imply that imprecatory prayers are not appropriate, based on the standard of love and goodness that is the Lord. Note how psalm 58 ends-

"(10)The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the veneance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, (11)so that men will say, 'surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely He is a God who judges in the earth.'"

The glorification of God before the world is the end desire of the prayer. The imprecatory prayer is guided by the love of God and His glory upon the earth. Also noteworthy is the declaration by the world (who are wicked) of the sovereignty of God. If I pray such a thing for the wicked- that God would break them to the core that they would turn to Him, how does this defy the context of Matthew 5:44?

It does not. What better blessing for a wicked man than to be brought to his knees before the Lord? What greater love can we give to a pursuing infidel than to give him the Gospel of our dear Saviour, praying that He would bring them to repentance? Do we not see in the psalter that the thrust of the imprecatory prayer is that of breaking the pride of foolish men? Oh, that God would have heard such a prayer 'against' me when I was yet a youth, that I would not have spent half of my life hating Him!

Therefore, as I see it, an imprecatory prayer, heartfelt, sincere and with passion... imploring God that the wicked be broken by Him, is one of the most important, deepest in meaning and unfortunately neglected supplications we can make before the throne of grace.

Theognome


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## kalawine (Feb 18, 2009)

Theognome said:


> Theogenes said:
> 
> 
> > How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> ...



Bill, you are indeed a poet.


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## Theognome (Feb 18, 2009)

kalawine said:


> Bill, you are indeed a poet.



But I din't rhyme nuthin! (that's 'But I did not rhyme anything' for those not in Mississippi)

Theognome


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## KMK (Feb 18, 2009)

Ex Nihilo said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > > I see your point, and this must be true with regard to our personal enemies. But what about imprecatory prayers concerning enemies of the church?
> ...



I would add 'silence' as well. God can put an end to enmity by saving, by destroying (through judgment), or even by silencing the enemy. That is what God did to Israel's enemies during the feast seasons when all the men were in Jerusalem. He took the fight out of their hearts during that time.


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## Romans922 (Feb 18, 2009)

Theogenes said:


> How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> 
> Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.



What about what Blueridge said, 

"Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day"

Seems IMPRECATORISH to me...


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 19, 2009)

I haven't read all the posts, but here is a resource which may be helpful:
Amazon.com: War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms: James E. Adams: Books

Chapter 5 of this book is online here:
May We Pray the Imprecatory Psalms? by James E. Adams

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## jaybird0827 (Feb 19, 2009)

The WSC explains that when we pray "thy kingdom come" in the Lord's Prayer, that we are praying that Satan's kingdom be destroyed as well as the kingdom of grace be advanced, and so on. That is an imprecation. Imprecations are to be addressed concerning God's enemies.


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## Theogenes (Feb 19, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but here is a resource which may be helpful:
> Amazon.com: War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms: James E. Adams: Books
> 
> Chapter 5 of this book is online here:
> May We Pray the Imprecatory Psalms? by James E. Adams



Thanks Jim!
This article has given me a much better understanding of this topic. I think a real key to the use of impreccatory prayers is whether or not a person is praying out of personal revenge or not. 
I want to change my answer to "YES".


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## Dieter Schneider (Feb 20, 2009)

Check Alex Luc


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## Jen (Feb 20, 2009)

One of our interns preached on this recently, and he did a really good job -- How Would You Preach an Imprecatory Psalm?


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## Rich Koster (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm glad that any imprecatory prayers someone may have thrown at me were not in God's will and therefore null. I know I have done some things in my life to merit a harsh blast.


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## Confessor (Feb 22, 2009)

I chipped one of my front teeth in half when I was in fourth grade, thus demonstrating that someone was praying Psalm 58:6 towards me.  

Maybe it is correct to pray imprecatory Psalms towards persons?  (Just kidding. )


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## Theogenes (Mar 6, 2009)

I think this is timely....
Trinity Foundation: Explaining God, man, Bible, salvation, philosophy, theology.


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## Dearly Bought (Mar 6, 2009)

This previous thread is quite useful as well:
Imprecatory psalm resources​


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## historyb (Jun 1, 2009)

Found this from a link about impectory pray, a bump for the thread.


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## steven-nemes (Jun 1, 2009)

I am unconvinced that they are proper at the moment....

Christ's command for New Testament believers to pray for their enemies, bless those who persecute them, etc., is _clearly_ to be understood as _not_ praying for their destruction but for their benefit and that they may be converted; that is a much more likely and plausible interpretation of the text, and one that perhaps more people in the early church to whom the letter was written would have held this interpretation than not.



> 1 Timothy 2
> 
> 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
> 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
> 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



Here Paul tells Timothy that he is to pray for the people in high positions--those who at that time in history would be the ones persecuting them violently!!!--because it is pleasing to God and proper for living a godly life,and so they might come to a knowledge of the truth.


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## Confessor (Jun 1, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> I am unconvinced that they are proper at the moment....
> 
> Christ's command for New Testament believers to pray for their enemies, bless those who persecute them, etc., is _clearly_ to be understood as _not_ praying for their destruction but for their benefit and that they may be converted; that is a much more likely and plausible interpretation of the text, and one that perhaps more people in the early church to whom the letter was written would have held this interpretation than not.
> 
> ...



Even in the OC we were told to love our neighbors as ourselves (Lev. 19:18), which invariably included our enemies. That our enemies are our neighbors makes sense given that in Lev. 19:18 we are told not to seek personal revenge at all -- and who would be the potential recipients of personal revenge but enemies?

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that (1) Jesus' Sermon on the Mount was not an abrogation of any of OT law, but a confirmation of its details, and more relevantly that (2) the enemies referred to in the imprecatory Psalms are _never_ personal enemies. Rather, we pray for the destruction of God's enemies in general, that unregenerates either be brought to repentance or crushed by King Jesus. In fact, when we pray "Thy kingdom come" in the Lord's Prayer, we are implying the destruction of Satan's kingdom and therefore the destruction of all God's enemies; and that is not different in substance from the imprecatory Psalms.

So, interestingly, when we are praying for some specific person to have his or her heart opened by God, we are praying for the destruction of Satan's kingdom. The imprecatory Psalms and Jesus' injunction to "pray for those who persecute you" align quite well.


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## steven-nemes (Jun 1, 2009)

Sure I agree with all that. My original problem was with (I forget who) saying he could teach his children to pray along the lines of "Save him or damn him, so long as his evil and mistreatment of the church stops." That sort of prayer seems contrary to Jesus' teachings on prayer in the sermon on the mount. I have no problem with praying that God's enemies, those who hate him and seek to destroy his chosen people, be destroyed and have God's justice and wrath shown; I have a problem with praying that someone in specific be damned.


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## Confessor (Jun 1, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> Sure I agree with all that. My original problem was with (I forget who) saying he could teach his children to pray along the lines of "Save him or damn him, so long as his evil and mistreatment of the church stops." That sort of prayer seems contrary to Jesus' teachings on prayer in the sermon on the mount. I have no problem with praying that God's enemies, those who hate him and seek to destroy his chosen people, be destroyed and have God's justice and wrath shown; I have a problem with praying that someone in specific be damned.



Yeah, I would disagree with that practice as well. It also seems to go contrary to Paul's opening words in Romans 9, in which he expresses sorrow for the unbelieving Jews, because they are going to be damned. We should pray for the salvation of our enemies as a means to stopping their persecution, or we could pray for their persecution to stop without praying for a specific means to its stopping, but it seems wrong to pray for evil to befall someone specific.

On the other hand, for those whom God has already laid out in Scripture to punish (rather than redeem), e.g. the man of sin, it would likely be permissible to pray for his destruction. In fact, I'm pretty sure the WCF teaches that somewhere, but I can't remember where.


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## steven-nemes (Jun 1, 2009)

True but if a person is reprobate or elect is something perhaps altogether unknowable to any of us here today. It could be that I was really deceived by person X who lived what appeared to be a godly lifestyle but in fact was horrendously sinful and disbelieving and such. For this reason, I think it improper to pray for this person X to be destroyed as an enemy of God, because he could possibly by God's grace come to knowledge of the truth, like Paul for example.


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## Confessor (Jun 1, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> True but if a person is reprobate or elect is something perhaps altogether unknowable to any of us here today. It could be that I was really deceived by person X who lived what appeared to be a godly lifestyle but in fact was horrendously sinful and disbelieving and such. For this reason, I think it improper to pray for this person X to be destroyed as an enemy of God, because he could possibly by God's grace come to knowledge of the truth, like Paul for example.



Oh yeah, I agree with that. I was referring to more specific instances (so specific, in fact, that I can think of only one example). For example, if you are convinced that the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the antichrist, then it would be permissible (I'd say it'd be obligatory) to pray for his destruction. To pray otherwise would be to pray against what God has revealed that He will do, namely destroy the man of sin with fire.


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## CalvinandHodges (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi:

The book recommended by Jim in post #34 above, _War Psalms of the Prince of Peace_, by James Adams puts the imprecatory Psalms in their proper context. It will also add a new dimension to your prayer life (if you have neglected this in the past).

Good Post Jim!

-Rob


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## PresbyDane (Jun 2, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but here is a resource which may be helpful:
> Amazon.com: War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms: James E. Adams: Books
> 
> Chapter 5 of this book is online here:
> May We Pray the Imprecatory Psalms? by James E. Adams



Thank you for sharing this


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## OPC'n (Jun 2, 2009)

God is allowed to curse His enemies and even hate them because He is an all holy and righteous God who can do those things with perfect righteousness. We cannot. Therefore, He doesn't call us to pray a curse on others but instead love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Just because it's good enough for God to do something doesn't mean we are allowed to place ourselves in the same seat. God takes lives all the time, however, He has commanded that we not murder. We are not God...we must know our place and know His place and not confuse the two.


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## JML (Jun 2, 2009)

TranZ4MR said:


> God is allowed to curse His enemies and even hate them because He is an all holy and righteous God who can do those things with perfect righteousness. We cannot. Therefore, He doesn't call us to pray a curse on others but instead love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Just because it's good enough for God to do something doesn't mean we are allowed to place ourselves in the same seat. God takes lives all the time, however, He has commanded that we not murder. We are not God...we must know our place and know His place and not confuse the two.




The imprecatory psalms were the words of David and obviously the words of God as well. But David was never corrected for saying these things. In fact he says in Psalm 139:21, "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?" By the wording of "do I not" it seems to imply this was what David was supposed to do. Obviously the other Scriptures about loving our enemies are true as well. There must be a balance that someone more intelligent than I am could maybe figure out. But we do find both in Scripture and there are no contradictions in Scripture.


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## HokieAirman (Jun 2, 2009)

> 1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.



I agree with imprecatory prayer being used against individuals. I think the scripture clearly shows that it should not be used for personal revenge, but rather a prayer that God uphold His people and His Word and bring judgment upon those who fight against Him for the purpose of repentence.

I see a close correlation between this and the purpose of church discipline. 

I don't have a whole lot of scripture references to support this, as I haven't studied the topic specificially, however, I believe the psalms are a good example. David is not praying for personal revenge. He is praying that God would protect him against his enemies. I do think he is praying against individuals. An example would be the psalms where he is being persecuted by Saul. He may word the psalm to be nonspecific, but it is clear that it is against Saul.


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## Confessor (Jun 2, 2009)

HokieAirman said:


> > 1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree with you. The problem with praying imprecatory Psalms against specific people arises when the motive is out of personal revenge. The distinction is one of proper motives, and not one of generic/specific targets.


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## OPC'n (Jun 2, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> > God is allowed to curse His enemies and even hate them because He is an all holy and righteous God who can do those things with perfect righteousness. We cannot. Therefore, He doesn't call us to pray a curse on others but instead love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Just because it's good enough for God to do something doesn't mean we are allowed to place ourselves in the same seat. God takes lives all the time, however, He has commanded that we not murder. We are not God...we must know our place and know His place and not confuse the two.
> ...



I would be careful in taking the Psalms as your guide on how to pray when Christ Himself is very clear on how we should pray. The Psalms often comes in and out talking about Christ and talking about David. That whole chapter appears to be talking about David, but we know that Scripture never contradicts itself and is never going to give us two commands in opposition to each other. Trying to take two commands in opposition of each and "balancing" the two is impossible. You either hate your enemies or you love them. I would be curious to see what a Hebrew scholar says about verses such as this.... whether the hate is toward the enemies' actions or the enemies themselves.


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## Romans922 (Jun 2, 2009)

We are to pray according to the Word of God. What is the will of God for our enemies? Will He not make them His and our footstool? Then we should pray for such. What is the will of God for salvation of our enemies? This we don't know, but we are to pray for all types of people, even those who are our enemies, we are to love our enemies. Then we should pray for their salvation.


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## willisadair (Jun 2, 2009)

theognome said:


> theogenes said:
> 
> 
> > how do impreccatory prayers square with matt5:44, "but i say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> ...



amen!!!


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## willisadair (Jun 2, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Theogenes said:
> 
> 
> > How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
> ...



These passages deal with how God deals with particular sinners, I am not seeing your connection to the question about prayer.


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