# Girlfriend/Boyfriend, Dating and Marriage



## Jonathan (Feb 20, 2005)

Ok, I need some feedback on this. I have come to the conclusion that the whole boyfriend/girlfriend attitude that is so common among teens is wrong (having been guilty of it once myself.). After watching very closely the immaturity of most "relationships" I find that they (teens) just have a boyfriend or girlfriend for the sake of having one or for fleshly lusts. I have noticed too, that this attitude is *very* common among Christians. I have a few friends who are awesome people, very godly... yet they go through 2-5 bf/gf's a year. Just by looking at it, I see flaws. Is not the whole purpose of having a gf/bf to be looking forward to marriage? I have heard of situations, where Christians believe that some guy should date about 10 girls at one time and eliminate them until he arrives at the one that he thinks God has chosen for him. That to me is just flat out wrong. So I have a few questions:

If a Christian guy likes a Christian girl, and they "get together", should not their intentions be looking forward to marriage? 

Going through many lovers is sin, correct? 

What is the Bible's way of courting, dating, etc? 

Guys role, girls role? 

Should a guy look for a girl, and if he finds one who he thinks is "the one" should he make attempts to court, date, etc?

I have studied this fairly well and have a fair argument against it... but I just need some feedback and verses that will help me along. 

(Hope this is in the right forum, I could not think of where to put it)


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 20, 2005)

While I am not yet going to get down into the Biblical example - the key issue you have pointed out is the attitude many young Christians have - which is they just need bf/gf's for the sake of it (which I agree with you on). So is it really an absolute problem with the system or is it a problem with the people? Dating with a change in attitude is not tooooo different from courtship in my opinion if you are looking at them as a possible future marriage partner and not just some entertainment.


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## Jonathan (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> 
> One thing that should be understood is that God is the Lord of all things, including "dating". I, myself, disbelieve the notion that "dating", as it is known today, is biblical. I do believe that if two Christians "get together", it should be with the intention of getting married. I made some foolish mistakes growing up by dating different people (not at one time, but nonetheless). Christian young men must guard themselves against the lust of the flesh, and one way to do that is to avoid ANY alone time in a private place with a person of the opposite gender. I've not read much of it, but from what I do remember reading, Joshua Harris' "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" had some excellent thoughts concerning dating/courting in it. I recommend it.



I will have to pick up that book. 

I just am appalled sometimes by the way parents treat this issue. I personally believe that parents should stress to their kids that the bf/gf thing is wrong. I see some parents who actually _encourage_ it! They say, "It is their way of finding a partner for life." More often than none though, that "finding" leads them through twenty people eventually ending at a dead end. 

I heard it said once by a father, in an effort to protect his daughter, when flirty guys came around seeking to "date" her: he was going to ask them if their intentions were leading to marriage. If they say yes, he would let them court/date. Seems like a pretty good way to sift the chaff from the wheat.  Although I still have a bad taste for the dating system.

[Edited on 2-20-2005 by Jonathan]


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 20, 2005)

> So I have a few questions:
> 
> If a Christian guy likes a Christian girl, and they "get together", should not their intentions be looking forward to marriage?



Pro 4:23 Above all things, guard your heart, for out of it all the issues of life come.

1Ti 5:1 Do not sharply rebuke an elder, but exhort as a father; and younger ones as brothers, 
1Ti 5:2 older women as mothers, younger ones as sisters, in all purity. 

Here's my 2 cents: Woman of faith are sisters in the Lord are to be kept as such, until that time as God reveals them to be your wife. He will only do this once (generally), so look hard. Your intention should be to _not harm_ your sister as if she was your blood sister, you would not want to break her heart, would you? Help guard her heart. Guard your heart and guard her heart. Friends do this. This relationship is not for harm; remember that.

You should find your wife active in ministry of some nature at your local church. You should have already been watching her. She should love Jesus more than she loves you........If you are trainning for the office of pastor, make sure your wife is called to be a pastors wife; the office is grueling (ask the men here) with little thanks.



> Going through many lovers is sin, correct?


 Correct.



> What is the Bible's way of courting, dating, etc?



The bible is essentially silent on the issue as compared to the day. I believe I expressed the biblical perspective above.



> Guys role, girls role?



You know the biblical citations for this.



> Should a guy look for a girl, and if he finds one who he thinks is "the one" should he make attempts to court, date, etc?



It's ok to [email protected]@K. Seek out. You should not depend on your eyes however. Your wife will soon get wrinkly w/ stretch marks and stuff. Your love needs to be bound up in Christ. The proverbs 31 woman was beautiful in the way she served God and her family. Look for a woman sold out for Jesus.

[Edited on 2-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Jonathan (Feb 20, 2005)

Very encouraging. I have been having this discussion with some of my friends, and I found that many of them are not looking for Christ in their "relationships". They are just seeking temporary entertainment. I am just beginning to see the importance of guarding the heart from lusts of the flesh. I always knew the verse I Tim. 5:2, but I never really applied it. Thanks for the post!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 20, 2005)

Modern dating --with its usual routine of "getting together," "trying it out," and then "breaking up" -- is just training for divorce, not marriage. 

The Biblical model involves parents, and standards that are focused on the religion of those concerned, not so much the modern concept of "compatibility." 

I recommend Daniel Defoe's _Religious Courtship_.


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## Authorised (Feb 20, 2005)

If you wait for God to drop a girl on your doorstep the only girl you'll ever marry is a Mormon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cupotea (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> If you wait for God to drop a girl on your doorstep the only girl you'll ever marry is a Mormon.





Seriously, though, in response to some of your comments above, don't forget, in order to see if the person is right you have to get to know them. Obviously, you have to avoid "sins of the flesh", but Christians should be able to say no without having chainlink fences built around them. Since marriage is a pretty big step, you have to make sure you don't make a mistake. 

For a random example (why not), Samuel Sewall, son of the judge, courted Rebecca Dudley, son of the evil governor, for only a _month_. This was in 1705 or so. I don't know how people can go that fast! They barely even knew each other. Yeah, you learn to just be patient, but, Yikes! Anyway, it didn't really last. Samuel kept being "melancholy" and when his parents came to visit and asked his wife what was going on she said, "I do my duty". Ouch! He ended up going home and living with his parents for a few years. Somehow I'm managed to completely get off track with this post. Nevertheless, it's an amusing anecdote, so I'll post it anyway.

G. S. Harwood
Hamilton, ON
University of Toronto


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 20, 2005)

What is our operational definition of modern dating? That depends on whether I support it or not as having a biblical base. One thing that is essential is it must be a build up to marriage etc... but does modern dating really rule that out as such? How would you all define dating?


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 20, 2005)

I know another 'Christian' way that does not work... you do not pray about it and then see if it 'feels right' and then date them. All my friends - and sadly even myself - have done that before and it NEVER works. I am the only one that learnt though but if you tell others that you become a heretic for takign God out of the whole deal. We just need to use some of our own intelligence God has given us. (And when it involves a girl you especially cant just trust your 'feelings')


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## Puritanhead (Mar 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jonathan_
> Ok, I need some feedback on this. I have come to the conclusion that the whole boyfriend/girlfriend attitude that is so common among teens is wrong (having been guilty of it once myself.).



Just teens... don't forget twentysomethings too.



> _Originally posted by Jonathan_
> I have a few friends who are awesome people, very godly... yet they go through 2-5 bf/gf's a year. Just by looking at it, I see flaws.



Most relationships with young people are incredibly superficial... based solely on spur of the moment emotionalism.



> _Originally posted by Jonathan_
> Is not the whole purpose of having a gf/bf to be looking forward to marriage?



Yeah! Best things come to those who wait!



> _Originally posted by Jonathan_I have heard of situations, where Christians believe that some guy should date about 10 girls at one time and eliminate them until he arrives at the one that he thinks God has chosen for him.



Funny. I've only known of girls that do this... operate as a polygamist mostly in stealth... Moreover, they will toy with emotions and sometimes lead multiple guys on, and blow them off at the drop of a hat. I think it is wrong, however, tempting it may be to do.

Courtship is essentially dating with a purpose, and I think twentysomething Christians should practice it. And draw a line between casual dates like going out to eat or movies with platonic girlfriends/boyfriends etc. 

Biblical courtship means setting clear boundaries on physical intimacy.... no inordinate affection, and outright NO-NOs on cohabitation or even having a BF/GF spend the night on the couch in one's apartment-- I've known of sorry gossip guys to slander good girls behind their back, because the girl had their boyfriend spend the night in the living room. While they do not deserve such gossip, the Apostle Paul told Timothy to "abstain from all appearance of evil," and it's one way to avoid it. Plus, it can be a slippery slope if one isn't careful-- no matter how chaste one is.

Other than that--- I don't know jack about women... they don't make any sense, or seldom try to for that matter... up means down, left means right.... there is seldom any rhyme or reason to anything they say or do. I think women are a mystery much like the Trinity (or why the government puts tags on furniture that says do not remove under penalty of the law.) 

Such things will always stay a little mysterious until the end of the age. 

Anyway, I'm going to wait patiently on the right woman...

[Edited on 3-2-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## pchan (Apr 2, 2005)

I highly recommend reading "Boy Meets Girl" by Joshua Harris and "Her Hand in Marriage" by Douglas Wilson. Also, there's a terrific chapter on seeking the Lord's guidance in marriage by Peter Masters (current pastor of C.H. Spurgeon's Metropolitan Tabernacle) in his book, "Steps For Guidance." All of these are fairly short, quick reads, too: Harris' book because it is written in a comfortable, almost conversational style; Wilson's because it is less than 100 pages; and same with Masters' chapter because, well, it's only a chapter long in a book that's less than 200 pages total. I hope that helps.


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## clevipearce (Apr 26, 2005)

If at all possible, I highly recommend allowing your parents have authority over any kind of courting or dating relationship. It has been such a blessing in my life to have my girlfriend's father over me in this. I have the freedom to run to him when I have questions, etc. Due to our circumstances, he also can regulate how quickly the relationship progresses. There is so much freedom in higher authority. I know this might not work out in everyone's situation due to unbelieving parents, but I strongly encourage you to submit to some believing (wise/walking with the Lord) adult. 

There's my


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## Tirian (Apr 26, 2005)

A agree with many of the comments already posted, but let me add this: I believe parent's should teach their children from a Godly perspective in this area from a very early age. I can't recall my folks talking much about these things until I was an early teen. By the time I reached the age of 13 I had started a serious relationship (with an older girl) and it was too late - I didn't listen to their guidance (though in retrospect they gave me very good advice, I just thought I knew better).

My kids are interested in marriage even at the age of 7 and 5. We've told them that God has already determined whether they will marry, who they will marry and when - they were so relieved to be able to leave it to God! They were watching a Hans Christian Anderson DVD the other day, and when one of the characters was looking for a wife by staging a competition, my 5 yr old said "That's wrong isn't it daddy!! God has chosen the person for him to marry!!"

We've also been reinforcing it with them in our studies of the ten commandments in terms of husbands having one wife (and vice versa).

They are of course very young, but we're trying to set the stage for discussing deeper topics as they grow. We need to tackle this topic with children before they hit the teenage years.

Matthew

[Edited on 4-26-2005 by Matthew Glover]


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## noonemayboast (May 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> If you wait for God to drop a girl on your doorstep the only girl you'll ever marry is a Mormon.



Hahahaha...

Well, I'm not under the impression that going out and chasing down a wife is Godly at all. In fact, one of the largest problems with dating is the means by which you get there: guy meets girl, talks to girl for short time, guy develops covetous emotions for girl, guy asks girl out and she accepts, guy lays "claim" of girl until breakup.

Yuck...

First off, I intend not to do ANYTHING regarding marriage (aside from preparing my heart) until I am of the age and circumstance where I can carry out what I start. At that point, I will not pursue a girl whom I do not already have a strong non-covetous friendship with (if you must mock me in such a way, this may borderline on what you call "falling in your lap", but hey, we're soveriegn Grace guys, right?).

This is such a tough subject to cover in such a short time. Hopefully I'll be able to post some more, but I too came to the same conclusion you have, Jonathan, and since then have been in a lot of conflict with misinstructed teens (I'm only 19), so their questions and objections have driven me to great lengths of study. In short, here's my suggestion: _I Kissed Dating Goodbye_ by Joshua Harris is a good one to get you started, it formed many of my core convictions.

One last thing, looking at 1 Corinthians 7, Paul encourages us to remain as we are. Now, I understand, most of us are going to defer to marriage (which is in no way inferior, on the contrary, husbands, your wives are one of the best, if not the best, way you will know God in this life, so may I encourage you to fear and guard your tongue in the ways you speak to and love your wives as they are the greatest gift God has given you aside from Himself), but I take very seriously this time of singleness God has mandated for me, and see no need to rush it. On the contrary, I must run for the glory of God displayed in the face of Christ, and when it should happen I should find a young lady running alongside me, I shall take great great caution and care in the way I pursue her hand (which, yes, does involve her parents first  ). Later

Aaron

[Edited on 5-6-2005 by noonemayboast]


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## noonemayboast (May 2, 2005)

Oh, and Jonathan, I think now that you are coming to understand the problems with this, it may be time to call your friends to repentance. Our culture really tries to make it ok, we even do sometimes because that's what we've been taught, but at the core of the dating mindest, I am convinced is covetousness and lust. After all, the world designed dating.

Aaron


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## noonemayboast (May 2, 2005)

Oh, oh, oh! One more thing! I've got to say that it's really encouraging to see young people embracing Biblical love, and yu remind me of myself, I was about 17 when I had to step back and consider what was going on. It seemed at that point as though God had been showing me all along that _none_ of my choices were His will... 

Anyway, really happy for you man! Hah, and hey, my parents are lost and don't understand, but it will be well worth it to do it in a way that honors God. I am well assured that if Christian husbands began to love their wives as they ought, worldwide revival would break out. That's just the power of what God has put in the "home". Let's see to it that we don't quench it.

Aaron


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## LawrenceU (May 2, 2005)

Courting is much more than dating with an intention to marry. That method implies something very different. Before a couple begins a courting relationship they have come to know one another very well in a community setting; in groups of people, families, church, etc. Long before they court they, and their families if possible, know one another very well. The courting begins when they and their parents sense that their relationship is one that would make a good marriage. Only then does individual courtship take place. Even then in the best sense of the term there is not a lot of private one on one interaction. Courting is the period in which the details of the relationship are worked out prior to engagement. In reality, courtship is not entered into unless engagement and marriage is an almost future event.

Does that sound archaic? Probably, but it is Biblical. It also was the common practice, even in our culture, until about 75 years ago or so. Does it work? Yes. We've been married now for 17 years.


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## noonemayboast (May 2, 2005)

Couldn't have said it better myself, Lawrence! That's great! Yes, there is a HUGE difference between dating and Biblical courtship. HUGE. Really HUGE. And it's not just a matter of setting physical boundaries, any Christian in their right mind would do that; it's a matter of setting emotional boundaries around yourselves BEFORE and after courtship begins. See, I think an equally important part that has been left out as of yet in this thread is what you have to do with your heart when you aren't courting...

Our culture has this thing called a "crush". They think it's cute and innocent. It's really fleshly and wicked... Think about it, how does a crush occur? You meet a person, begin to think about "your future together" or whatever else you want to say... Anyway, you start thinking about them a whole lot, and pretty soon you have this emotional attachment to them. _*Covetousness.*_ And it's almost always based on beauty, wit, or (this is a big one) the fact that they have been making advances toward you. Probably my hardest ordeal with a crush was right around the time I came to embrace Biblical love. I was new to guarding my heart, but I knew dating was wrong. She began to flirt with me, she was a leading youth in the youth group alongside me, we bagan to hang out more than usual, and all of a sudden I found myself head-over-heels for this girl... I knew I had done something wrong. I knew she wasn't going to take the next part well... I confronted her and told her I couldn't date her because I knew it was wrong. Well, long story short, she has shown herself since to be LOST. She was never saved! And I should have know it all along by the way she scoffed at really Godly instruction (it was not the best church and I was just Reforming). She is blatantly lost. What did I learn from that? Crushes come from the flesh and base themselves off of fleshly things.

We've GOT to guard our hearts! We have a natural attraction to women! It's not a bad thing in it's own right, but we have to guard it and direct it in a right way. When we're young, like Jonathan and I, we must keep ourselves pure from our passions and seek wholeheartedly the beauty of Christ. Like I said earlier, the relationship of husband and wife is the closest human representation God has given us of what it is to _know_ Him! It comes with great responsibility and ought to be handled in fear.

We have got to be careful to recognize covetous emotion rising up in us! It is sin and it hurts the girl you are coveting (by leading her on or causing her to covet) and all the people around who see it. This caution may mean that you have to distance yourself a certain amount from the girls you generally interact with. Does that sound archaic? Now, don't get all crazy with this, because you don't want to hurt anyone in this manner either, but you must keep enough distance that you feel your heart is somewhat safe and that their hearts are protected. What this generally means is you don't spend time with them alone, you don't always talk to them while in a group, you don't always look to them when you want somebody to laugh at your jokes, etc. You've got to guard your heart and remember that your actions effect their heart too.

I've found (since I moved to a Biblical church where some of the youth are actually saved) that it's a lot easier to deal with girls that are commited to Biblical love as you are. It's funny, as I got more comfortable at FBC Briar, I Biblical love began to come up more and more as I worked with the youth. In a large, sort of round table, discussion late one night on our mission trip this year, several of the girls rejected dating and embraced Biblical love, and it was just like this huge barrier had been lifted. I can talk to them comfortably now because I know that thier convictions are the same and thier hearts are after the same thing. I know that we are responsible for keeping one another in check, and we have much deeper fellowship becuase we know we aren't chasing each other.

One more thing. Now, this is just me (and the puritans again), but along the lines of setting boundaries during courtship, I don't plan to kiss her until "you may kiss the bride". Whether or not I hold her hand before we're married is still in question. It's that whole thing of physical affection being a definate, ummm, emotion booster. Now, don't ge me wrong, emotion is absolutely necesary in marriage (in fact, much more emotion than most Godly husbands I have met show to their wives). But it doesn't serve to keep our heads clear before we are married, for sure. Let me leave you with an amazing thought that has radically changed my thinking:

_Agape_ is not primarily an emotional love. The other three are, but agape is not emotional at its core.

Emotion comes with it.

Aaron


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## Romans922 (May 5, 2005)

Are you guys calling my relationship with my girlfriend wrong? 

-my relationship is not a courting relationship.
-it is only a relationship because from the start I could see myself marrying her and that would be the logical end.
-I have enjoyed my relationship with my gf and so has she.
-It has been centered around biblical principles, where I lead and she submits (mind you, not in all things, we arent married; but many things)
-I could go on.


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## tdowns (May 5, 2005)

*Sounds good to me!*

I just like short engagements myself...see our other discussion for reasons why.

Sounds like you two have a great relationship. That's how I dated my wife before we got married.


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## noonemayboast (May 5, 2005)

Andrew,

Well, man, ultimately you have got to figure it out. Nobody said anything about _your_ relationship, but this thread is here to exhort and call to caution anyone who cares. Obviously "dating" is a term applied to a whole host of ideas, but, among other things, you've got to decide whether or not your 'system' is making provision for the flesh or your deceptive heart. At the first chance you give it, your heart will throw itself totally at a person instead of Christ. Do you spend time alone together? Do you spend an excess of time together, even if it's in groups? Have you protected her heart and yours? Have you honored her singleness?

If your relationship makes her somehow not _single_, yes, I would say it's wrong. No one has any right to "lay claim" to her until she is engaged, and even then, it's not much.

I guess it boils down to the fact that if there are _things_ wrong with your relationship, you have to remedy that somehow. All this is up to you, if she's worth it to you.

I don't know, nobody intends to make anybody mad, I know it's a touchy subject, though. Obviously, I'm no authority, I guess it's take it or leave it. I know what my boundaries will be, though.

Have successful marriages been accomplished by 'dating'? Yes. Is there a _better_ way? I believe strongly, yes.

Grace and Peace to You,
Aaron


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## Romans922 (May 5, 2005)

well i guess you have to ask, what if the woman that you want to 'date/court' has a good immediate family. What if her father isnt there, or her mother? What if they arent christians? What if they are separated?


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## satz (May 5, 2005)

Hi Aaron,

Could you just help me answer a question about your post?
I've been reading your posts on these threads and agree with much of what u say. One thing though...



> If your relationship makes her somehow not single, yes, I would say it's wrong. No one has any right to "lay claim" to her until she is engaged, and even then, it's not much




Could explain your rationale for saying this? I understand (and agree with) much of your other beliefs but i don't see where you get the above from?

Could you help me understand? 

[Edited on 5-6-2005 by satz]


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## Puddleglum (May 5, 2005)

Aaron,
I don't it has to be a dating v. courtship thing. I think Harris made a point in his second book that similar to that - and that it's possible to have a godly "dating" relationship, and it's also possible to have really wrong "courtship" relationships. I think it's got to do more with what your attitude, motives, etc. are than which system you follow. 

Andrew,
As to your questions, I think the point is more to have some form of accountability. So I'd assume that the girl was a member of a church, and therefore she'd be under the authority of the elders of that church - and so those would be the people you'd be looking to for guidance, accountability, etc. Hey - even if the girl came from a picture-perfect Christian family, hopefully the elders would still have some level of concern and thus involvement! 

Though, it's not like I'm actually in a "significant other" relationship, so it's probably fair to say that I don't know what I'm talking about!


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## noonemayboast (May 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> 
> 
> > If your relationship makes her somehow not single, yes, I would say it's wrong. No one has any right to "lay claim" to her until she is engaged, and even then, it's not much
> ...



Sure, Mark! There's a couple of different ways to attack it, but here's one...



> 1 Corinthians 7:4
> For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.


It's directly referring to sexual intercourse between man and wife, but the principle stands that, inside of marriage, your spouse is your priority before your children and before the gathering of the Church.

Before the next Scripture, it needs to be pointed out that the _general trend_, this IS NOT to say that everyone does it, but the trend of dating is that your boyfriend/girlfriend has a monopoly on your time. You're together all the time, talking all the time, in each other's thoughts ALL THE TIME. Most importantly, you are _expected_ to drop whatever else you are doing at the beckon call of your significant other, or likely the 'relationship' will soon end. (Also, it's important to note that many times, the 'dating' stage is substituted for friendship. I know much of Christendom shys away from this level of emotional promiscuity, but whether or not we realize it, we are prone to it.)



> 1 Corinthians 7:32-34
> I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.



Notice that? "The unmarried or _betrothed_!!" Even if you are seriously persuing a woman's hand in marriage, if she is unable to be anxious about the things of the Lord in a manner comparable to when she was without suitor, you've crossed the line. Time as a single is a precious thing. The point is, if you don't own her body, you don't own her time.

Glad you asked.

Aaron


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## noonemayboast (May 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puddleglum_
> Aaron,
> I don't it has to be a dating v. courtship thing. I think Harris made a point in his second book that similar to that - and that it's possible to have a godly "dating" relationship, and it's also possible to have really wrong "courtship" relationships. I think it's got to do more with what your attitude, motives, etc. are than which system you follow.



I agree very much that either one can be done wrong. I also agree that either one _can be done right_, but it's a matter of how careful and how God-centered you want it to be. I understand that dating has worked, but so has easy-believism.

I agree that the most important area of a relationship is that it be properly motivated. I also think we should be very careful not to make a disconnect between motives and the actions that spring out of them. In fact, in your words to Andrew you summed it up yourself: "As to your questions, I think the point is more to have some form of accountability." If your motive really is to please Christ in doing what is best for both of you, you will seek accountability and take caution. I know it's not "dating v. courtship" persay, but I think once you modify dating enough to where it's halfway God-centered and safe it looks so different from dating that you can no longer begin to call it that. I hope nobody's just after the right "system..." I'm after Biblical love.

There just happen to be some boundaries that come out of that desire.

Aaron


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## Romans922 (May 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puddleglum_
> Aaron,
> I don't it has to be a dating v. courtship thing. I think Harris made a point in his second book that similar to that - and that it's possible to have a godly "dating" relationship, and it's also possible to have really wrong "courtship" relationships. I think it's got to do more with what your attitude, motives, etc. are than which system you follow.
> 
> ...



so are you saying that the elders should be involved in every single dating/courting relationship that goes on in the church? Where do we see this in Scripture? I thought that their primary responsibility was preaching of the Word, sacraments, and church discipline. This would fall under probably the latter, but that is only to restore not to keep from necessarily?


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## reformed_farmers_wife (May 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cottonball_
> 
> For a random example (why not), Samuel Sewall, son of the judge, courted Rebecca Dudley, son of the evil governor, for only a _month_. This was in 1705 or so. I don't know how people can go that fast! They barely even knew each other. Yeah, you learn to just be patient, but, Yikes! Anyway, it didn't really last. Samuel kept being "melancholy" and when his parents came to visit and asked his wife what was going on she said, "I do my duty". Ouch! He ended up going home and living with his parents for a few years. Somehow I'm managed to completely get off track with this post. Nevertheless, it's an amusing anecdote, so I'll post it anyway.
> 
> ...



I must say I disagree with the above statement. I think how quickly a relationship progresses has a lot to do with age/maturity. My husband and I got engaged just 6 short weeks after we went on our first date. We had gotten to know each other for 3 months at church and at my parents house before we went on that first date. We were married 3 1/2 months after we were engaged. We have now been married for almost 5 years! 

Anyway, here are some links to books on courtship that some of you may be interested in.

Books on the Path

Vision Forum ~ Emotional Purity

Draught Horse Press ~ Her Hand In Marriage

I'm sure there are more but that's all I can think of now.


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## Puddleglum (May 6, 2005)

Aaron,



> I think once you modify dating enough to where it's halfway God-centered and safe it looks so different from dating that you can no longer begin to call it that.



Okay, I think I can understand a bit better, now. While "dating" may be okay, godly dating isn't what people think of when they hear the word "dating", so it can be helpful to come up with another term to help distinguish what you're talking about. 

Andrew,

Good questions.  I guess the way I see it is that elders are called to be shepherds, and part of shepherding is keeping an eye on the sheep, and hopefully helping them to steer away from danger before they end up neck-deep in it (which is where I see church discipline as being) - trying to keep from church discipline, not just do church discipline. Though, obviously, the level of involvment will vary tremendously with the situation. I guess what I was thinking is that there will always be some level of concern on the part of the elders (hopefully) about their "sheep's" well-being. How that concern plays out is a good question & I think would depend a lot of the circumstances and what level of involvement was needed to keep them from getting into too much trouble. I know that when there was this guy at church who was, well, interested in me, it helped me to know that one of my elders knew about it and was watching, even though I think we only talked about it once, and not for very long.


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## RamistThomist (May 21, 2005)

I just finished _Her Hand in Marriage_, and I thought it was very good. We might quibble with certain specifics but he did a great job in showing the modern, recreational dating system to be a train wreck. The book was short, easy to read, and probably could be read in one sitting.

Andrew wrote elsewhere,



> Modern dating --with its usual routine of "getting together," "trying it out," and then "breaking up" -- is just training for divorce, not marriage.



Case closed.


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