# Lack of Church Discipline



## jjraby (Sep 2, 2010)

What are some reasons why there is an apparent lack of church discipline in our modern churches?


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## Romans922 (Sep 2, 2010)

Fear of men.


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## littlepeople (Sep 2, 2010)

well put


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## Poimen (Sep 2, 2010)

1) Apostasy: 2 Peter 2:15ff.
2) Covenant Breaking: Hebrews 12:8
3) Laziness: Ecclesiastes 10:18
4) (Poor) Leadership: 1 Timothy 3:5
5) Money: James 2:1ff.
6) Tolerance: Revelation 2:20


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## jwithnell (Sep 2, 2010)

Josh is right on, and I'd have to agree that apostasy ranks way up there. Add to that: if you don't agree that the Bible gives us God's word and direction as individuals, families, and churches, then you're not going to be in a position to intervene on any of those levels in a disciplinary manner. The proper preaching of the word and church discipline are closely intertwined, as would be our growth through the sacraments (a more mature believers is more likely to be grateful for Godly counsel and intervention).


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## jason d (Sep 2, 2010)

lack of membership


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## puritan628 (Sep 2, 2010)

Along with the American individualism comes a "no one tells ME what to do" attitude. "I am the master of my own ship ...." etc. blah blah blah


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## Wayne (Sep 2, 2010)

Lack of discipline is the direct result of moral cowardice--failure to stand against sin because we are ourselves complicit 
(not in a "we're all sinners" sort of way, but rather in an unrepentant, "I like my sin too much to give it up" way).


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## Rich Koster (Sep 2, 2010)

1) Liberals. (low respect for scripture)
2) More liberals. (low respect for God)
3) Even more liberals. (high respect of man & his opinions)

It's like the Borg (from Star Trek) assimilating people into an increasing spiritual stupor.


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## APuritansMind (Sep 2, 2010)

A decreased fear of God combined with an increased fear of man.


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## jjraby (Sep 2, 2010)

Rich Koster said:


> 1) Liberals. (low respect for scripture)
> 2) More liberals. (low respect for God)
> 3) Even more liberals. (high respect of man & his opinions)
> 
> It's like the Borg (from Star Trek) assimilating people into an increasing spiritual stupor.



but, resistance is not futile, Its an imperative.


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## SemperEruditio (Sep 2, 2010)

Antinomianism & a perversion of the "priesthood of all believers."


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## EverReforming (Sep 2, 2010)

Good posts above, and well put. I'd also add to the possible reasons that moral relativism has crept in to many churches as well. But I guess that still kind of falls under the "nobody tells me what to do" attitude. We seem to want to place God in a box that fits our worldviews, rather than be conformed to Him.


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## jjraby (Sep 2, 2010)

I would also had that anyone can go down the street and join another church. I don't know how often the session calls the previous church and inquires about the member. I guess alot would rather keep the tithing and put up with the sin than risk losing a wealthy parishioner.


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## moral necessity (Sep 2, 2010)

A lack of intimacy or closeness between others in the church because of complex, busy lifestyles, and therefore a sense of it not being appropriate.


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## Mushroom (Sep 2, 2010)

All of the above plus, "Matt. 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold."


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## Herald (Sep 2, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> Fear of men.



Brevity takes the day. Fear of men sums it up quite nicely.


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## Jack K (Sep 2, 2010)

Two reasons:

1. We've lost our sense of how _different_ life in the church is supposed to be from life in the world. We think life in the church is pretty much like life in the rest of America, where it isn't polite to stick your nose into another's business. We may be ready to admit that life as a believer (singular) is different from the world. But we fail to see that life as a church is also. Our view of the church is weak and unbiblical.

2. We don't know _how_ to discipline. We're out of practice. Effective church discipline takes hard work and you have to learn how to get good at it. Of my last two churches, one practiced regular discipline and as a result did it well, was not scared of it, and had great success. The other believes in the practice but is fearful of actually doing it due to lack of experience. The difference between elders who're confident and experienced and those who're reluctant and fearful is huge.


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## Curt (Sep 2, 2010)

Sin.


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## Notthemama1984 (Sep 2, 2010)

Numbers and Money


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 2, 2010)

Rich Koster said:


> 1) Liberals. (low respect for scripture)
> 2) More liberals. (low respect for God)
> 3) Even more liberals. (high respect of man & his opinions)
> 
> It's like the Borg (from Star Trek) assimilating people into an increasing spiritual stupor.


 

I do believe you are correct.

It all starts with a low view of God and his Divine Word and an overinflated view of ourselves.

It seems all things flow out of our view of God.


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## christiana (Sep 2, 2010)

Former pastor, for obvious reasons, said that 'if I were to preach all the things that are in that bible people would never come back'. I had to restrain myself from saying that if they didnt return it would not be his problem but that he will be accountable for preaching all that is in the bible! I'm so thankful that our Lord guided me to a 'real' church after that.


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## paculina (Sep 2, 2010)

Immaturity in the church and cowardice among the leadership. In a modern church where a large percentage of Christians are biblically illiterate and can't intelligently state what they believe beyond "Jesus loves me, this I know" and why, or name 4 of the 10 commandments, where "The Prayer of Jabez" and "The Purpose-Driven Church" are the Christian bestsellers, and where pastors are filling their pulpit time with jokes and stories and feel-good entertainment rather than real biblical teaching for the sake of not offending anyone and trying to seem as little like church as possible, I'm hardly surprised they don't practice church discipline. 

Reformed churches, for the most part, do focus on Word and Sacrament more than entertainment or being seeker-sensitive, and therefore it is not surprising they are often more conscientious in matters of church discipline.


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## MW (Sep 2, 2010)

I would say that there are some foundational theological aberrations which have inspired the neglect of "church" discipline, and which serve to rationalise cultural concepts like individualism, moral relativism, etc. One aberration which seems obvious to me is the belief that "Christianity is not a religion but a way of life." This is the number one cause of syncretism. Once standard Christian practice (the form of religion) has been rejected there remains no objective rule for external conformity upon which discipline can be based.


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## SolaSaint (Sep 3, 2010)

I think many of the church growth gimmicks have replaced discipline with accountability partners, and that way the leadership of the church can turn a blind eye and still feel they are addressing the issue if questioned. I feel it comes down to a lack of love for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If we truly loved them we would discipline them for we would want them restored to a right relationship with God and the church.


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## Montanablue (Sep 3, 2010)

Er, I may have reported Jack K's post when I meant to thank it. Oops....

I agree with all of the above, but I also think that some churches have been too heavy handed in their discipline - not applying it lovingly or not doing a through investigation of the facts before charging a member. This makes people wary of joining churches that actually practice good discipline and it may make some church leaders (who've heard horror stories) leery of applying discipline. Other factors are probably more to blame for the lack of church discipline, but I think this also comes into play.


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## paculina (Sep 3, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> Er, I may have reported Jack K's post when I meant to thank it. Oops....
> 
> I agree with all of the above, but I also think that some churches have been too heavy handed in their discipline - not applying it lovingly or not doing a through investigation of the facts before charging a member. This makes people wary of joining churches that actually practice good discipline and it may make some church leaders (who've heard horror stories) leery of applying discipline. Other factors are probably more to blame for the lack of church discipline, but I think this also comes into play.


 
I agree with this too. Many churches "discipline" by means of gossip, intimidation, blackmail and humiliation. Of course we know that this isn't biblically correct, loving, or effective in the right way. But it is still done in many places.


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## calgal (Sep 3, 2010)

paculina said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Er, I may have reported Jack K's post when I meant to thank it. Oops....
> ...


 
And to add to all of your excellent posts, there is a lot of not caring enough to avoid getting to the point of discipline: knowing your sheep and being able to catch most problems before they get to that stage.


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## Peairtach (Sep 3, 2010)

Proper biblical Church discipline is much more central than state discipline (judicial laws) - as it is often fussed about in the theonomy section of this board - as the Church is the central institution in history and in society and is the New Covenant Israel of God.

We firstly need to learn about Church discipline and sanctions from the judicial laws of Moses.


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