# Trials and testings the result of a theological shift???



## SmokingFlax (May 29, 2004)

Hello.

This is my 2nd post here on the board. After having spent some weeks reading many posts here and seeing that many of you have shifted into reformed theology from either dispensationalism, Arminianism, Pentecostalism, etc. etc. I was wondering...

Is it normal to experience a BUNCH of trials and testings in (your) life after you have switched into a more Calvinistic viewpoint?

It seems that for me this is exactly the case as my whole life seems to have been turned upside down roughly coinciding with my gradual shift into understanding and embracing the doctrines of grace. I'm just trying to understand some of my very perplexing experience for the past several months. Any prayers would be appreciated.


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## Irishcat922 (May 29, 2004)

Are you referring to friends and family or life in general? 
Where are you in North Dallas? I know of two good churches up there.


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## Me Died Blue (May 29, 2004)

Welcome, Christopher (good name!). As to your question of whether or not it's [i:13a0675667]normal[/i:13a0675667] to experience a bunch of trials shortly after being convinced of Reformed theology, there's not really one answer. For some people there could be; for other there may not. It just depends on how God wants to use what in certain situations. That's part of trusting His providence, even when it seems mysterious to us.

You can count on me to pray for you, that God would continue to guide you and light you in His will everywhere.

In Christ,

Chris


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## SmokingFlax (May 29, 2004)

Thanks for your prayers! I feel like I need all that I can get.

I am referring to life in general (mostly) - and that because my conception of who God is has been so skewed by erroneous teaching, etc. sometimes the terrifying thought that I was not even saved and other like thoughts makes me think that my conversion experience (which was very powerful) was to &quot;another Jesus&quot;.


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## SmokingFlax (May 29, 2004)

Oh yeah, I forgot...

I live in the very north part of Dallas...you might as well say Plano, Texas. I've visited PCPC a couple of times and there were some ok things but it was so huge that I felt like I was a cog in a machine. I might yet return there though as I know that I need to be in a congregation.


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## Irishcat922 (May 29, 2004)

I was going to recommend PCPC. Or a smaller church is Metrocrest Presbyterian on Hebron Pkwy. One of the hardest things to overcome for me coming out of a neo-pentecostal background was learning to trust Christ regardless of my emotions and or experience on a day to day basis. I was taught as are most Charismatics to place emotional experience on a higher level than simply trusting God and his Word. Any way that was not an easy thing for me to work through. Psalm 73 was very helpful as was Psalm 139. Also I spent alot of time meditating on Christ's Lordship in my life, and the implications of that. Matt 19:16-23 We have to come to that place where nothing else in our lives matter but Christ and Christ alone. Hang in there brother. it sometimes gets worse before it gets better. But Christ is the Good Shepherd keep following Him. John 10


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## FrozenChosen (May 29, 2004)

Christopher,

While I did not come from a charismatic background, I came from an SBC dominated area, Pensacola. Then I went to college in another SBC dominated area, Auburn.

Mostly, the trials for me are of pride and patience, but sometimes deep cuts can be made. There is a lot of verbal backlash to Calvinism in the SBC, and most of it is based on what people THINK Calvinism is, because they haven't studied it.

I'm sure that you will face tough times from the people you're coming out from. I roomed with a Pentecostal last year and it was pretty tough. Sometimes I had to bite my tongue, put my headphones on and listen to some soothing, cool jazz and pray.

And PB may seem like it's some massively genious discussion place, and that there is no place for questions you feel are unimportant.

I think I speak for the entire board when I say that you should feel free to ask any of us any question at any time. Prayin' for you hermano.


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## alwaysreforming (May 29, 2004)

Christopher,
In reference to your original question, I cannot say whether or not it is &quot;normal&quot; to experience trials during this time of &quot;coming to the Reformation,&quot; but I can say that that is exactly what happened to ME!

It seemed to last for about a year as well! Guess I'll have to add ya to my prayer list!

Hang in there. And hey, at least you got US!


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## Ianterrell (May 29, 2004)

My trials came mostly in the form of persecution from other Christians. Mostly those who were already predisposed against any talk of &quot;theology&quot;. I was dissapointed to go to a church that claimed to be reformed and yet were hostile to living out the reformed doctrines practically. One man claimed that we should think like a Calvinist, and act like an Arminian. Which is complete nonsense. 

I ended up that year facing some family troubles and eventually splitting from my home church in Texas and also the church I had been attending in New York City. In both cases I ended up coming into direct confrontation with those churches ministers which was very discouraging for me as young man. It was disheartening to meet with pastors who abused their leadership roles. In both cases they wanted me to abandon my convictions and &quot;submit&quot; to them.


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## SmokingFlax (May 29, 2004)

Fortunately I have not had to butt heads with too many church folks regarding my changing theological perspective. I've tried hard NOT to do so, which was not too difficult as I am rather introverted and did not connect very well with the many younger people at my old church and the people who are my age are usually/mostly all married. So I'm in a somewhat narrow demagraphic and I was never really plugged in there.

I guess my biggest concern was feeling like I was &quot;falling away&quot; from God ...though it feels more like I was being ripped away (considering how much emotional stress I've been under). On the other hand, it seems to me that the &quot;god&quot; that I'm falling away from is simply some kind of a horrible idolotrous construct that I've patched together from a hodge-podge of confused and unconnected sources -so it's not all bad. 

I've only just recently begun to go through some systematic theology (Charles Hodge, William Ames and eventually I intend to go through my copy of Calvin's Institutes and also Charnock's Attributes and Existence of God). It's a very frightening place to be at as I feel like I don't even really know God (even after some 10 years as a Christian). I know that I have to unlearn and relearn so much...very frustrating. It feels like I'm some kind of a half-formed mutation at this point. I keep waiting for God's great grace to shine His light of understanding on my mind. Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 29, 2004)

With only a tiny fear of contradiction, I would like to suggest that you are in a wonderful place of blessed potential. Whenever we are at a point in our lives when God has really shaken us up, he is giving us a new starting point. 

The writings of a well-known Reformed counselor (Jay Adams) provide a helpful analogy. &quot;Nervous breakdowns&quot; really should be called &quot;break-ups&quot; because they describe the shambles of a person's (usually) poorly constructed life that has come to disruption. Like the time following a true conversion experience, this is not a time for inaction, or a careless come-what-may attitude, but the time for laying a [i:b1411553da]good[/i:b1411553da] foundation. In conversion, God takes a life that was displeasing to him in every single area, and now it is possible for that person to begin a reconstruction of that life into a God-oriented complex. Don't wait to reconfigure a new believer's life! Begin immediately, before the old habit patterns get reset. 

It sounds like you are feeling like newly plowed up ground. You don't know what is happening, or what the end product is even supposed to &quot;look like&quot;. You are experiencing turmoil in several areas of life as a result of the Holy Spirit's [i:b1411553da]already[/i:b1411553da] enlightening power toward you concerning his Truth. [i:b1411553da]There are God-pleasing ways to handle all these difficulties.[/i:b1411553da] You are getting into good books, some great books; that is, you are sitting yourself down at the feet of some of God's best human teachers who will help you understand your Bible as it was meant to be grasped. 

I cannot encourage you strongly enough to waste no time finding a nurturing church to enter into fellowship with. It needs to be a place where the elders care about your soul, and where you are FED by the preaching of the Word, and where you will be of service to others. 

And may I add a loving word of warning? Just as you [i:b1411553da]spent time[/i:b1411553da] exploring this board (like I did) before you piped up, realize that growth takes time. Remember the lesson of Mk. 4:26-29 as it applies to an individual. It may be some time before you ever feel unfrustrated. But God's work is that of a careful craftsman. 

May the God of all comfort comfort you in all your tribulation, that you may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble with the comfort which you yourself were comforted by God.


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## rembrandt (May 29, 2004)

[quote:f39535a04e][i:f39535a04e]Originally posted by SmokingFlax[/i:f39535a04e]
Thanks for your prayers! I feel like I need all that I can get.

I am referring to life in general (mostly) - and that because my conception of who God is has been so skewed by erroneous teaching, etc. sometimes the terrifying thought that I was not even saved and other like thoughts makes me think that my conversion experience (which was very powerful) was to &quot;another Jesus&quot;. [/quote:f39535a04e]

That sounds exactly like me. I had a powerful conversion experience as well. I was saved in a drug rehab center when God struck me almost exactly like Apostle Paul except I didn't see the risen Lord. I'm not going to get into all of what happened, but to sum it up, it was like I got struck by lightening and my whole life changed in literally an instant. Since then, I began attending a Charismatic church. I got very heavy into the thirdwave movement. Once I accepted Reformed theology, and realized what I was involved with, I felt like I had to start all over. I felt like it was a [i:f39535a04e]completely[/i:f39535a04e] different God. Once I got into the rationalism of Calvinism, I thought that there were no direct implications to my spiritual life. Boy was I wrong! God began convincting me of my sin like never before. My whole spiritual life grew slowly at first, but once I learned to relax in the Sovereignty of God, everything began falling in place. 

Regeneration is a funny thing. We can be in distress for a while, but then God's work in us begins coming to fruition and everything that was once tough to deal with looking back on the 'old days', becomes God's very purpose for our lives.

I still carry the pain of dealing with people from my old church. I have had way too many confrontations. It feels like it is not even a real church because of all the bad things they said to me about my beliefs. But once again, I realized the purpose of suffering in God's plan for the Church.

[quote:f39535a04e]I guess my biggest concern was feeling like I was &quot;falling away&quot; from God ...though it feels more like I was being ripped away (considering how much emotional stress I've been under). On the other hand, it seems to me that the &quot;god&quot; that I'm falling away from is simply some kind of a horrible idolotrous construct that I've patched together from a hodge-podge of confused and unconnected sources -so it's not all bad.[/quote:f39535a04e]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Know that you are on the right track when you struggle with these things. If you weren't struggling to see how God was mixed in with the old practices, then something must be wrong. It is very difficult and it takes time to heal emotionally from the old experiences we used to embrace as 'truth'.

One piece of advice: read alot of articles on godly living and the Christian life. It is very difficult to see how practical things work out in a new system of theology (i.e. Calvinism).

I started reading on Calvinist Piety too late. Read &quot;hearty&quot; books like Augustine's Confessions. Also, these are great articles: http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/godlylife.html

I will be praying for you brother,
Paul


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## Puritan Sailor (May 30, 2004)

I certainly had more confrontation when my doctrinal views switched to reformed. I was branded as narrowmined and cultic. When confronted with their arguments against Calvinism, I was asking simple questions of pastors, elders, and family members, like where is your view found in Scripture? Or what about this Scripture? I would get some of the most amazing looks, suggesting me for being insanse to even question one of the most basic &quot;facts&quot; of the faith (i.e. free will). 
Admittedly, I was not always as meek as I should have been in these discussions, but I always felt like an outsider once my convictions changed, and still do. The only support and comfort I had were from my dead friends (i.e. the Puritans) and a few friends who came to like faith, until I finally found a Reformed church. But the tension with old friends and family is still there. The frame of reference for all life's problems are completely different, especially when it comes to corporate worship. It's almost impossible to explain reformed worship to a charasmatic, especially the whole idea of the regulative principle. It's so frustrating, because you have to go back to the basics of even reading your Bible correctly first, before you can go anywhere else. 
As you can see, the struggle still goes on for me....


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## cupotea (May 30, 2004)

Most excellent responses, brothers.

My reply would differ only in that the Lord gifted (cursed?) me with this brain that believes it needs to wrap itself around everything in its path and understand it. Having been raised Arminian/Dispensationalist, the inconsistancies that were presented by those theologies just made me insane. I had this warped, distorted view of God that arose from being taught Arminian theology. When I finally came to an understanding of the Doctrines of Grace every one of those inconsistancies vanished and the view I now have of God is one that makes me speechless. It's all I can do not to shout Soli Deo Gloria.

So in that way, I was freed from my blinding pride and life was wonderful. But like many here, I have lost friends and church brethren who think I am apostate in heresy. Would I trade my dearly held friendships for my newfound view of the Almighty God who works all things according to his good pleasure?

Absolutely not.

I'll happily pray for you, brother.


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## Craig (May 30, 2004)

Christopher-

It is common to come across trials after a shift. One thing to consider, though. Is the trial harder because you now have a new framework to think through? I found that was most of it. I did have a lot of things to work through relationship-wise, too. Even talking to fellow believers is different after you've had a theological shift.

The only thing else I'd say, make sure any trials aren't brought about by being a rabid &quot;Calvinist&quot;. Stand for truth....in love. Unfortunately, I think I stressed friendships that were unneccessary. I created problems that could have been avoided.

I will keep you in my prayers!


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## SmokingFlax (May 30, 2004)

Thank you all so much for your prayers and counsel, etc.

To answer your question (Craig): Yes, a big part of my struggle has to do with thinking through the new framework. But I'm a lot like Newly Reformed it seems as ever since I've been converted to Christ my mind has always been in a mad quest for knowledge and understanding ...I'm really quite tireless in this respect. So learning the systematic framework is more like fun to me. To give you an idea...I read over 60 books last year (most of them reformed) and I would that I could read more. There is SOOOOO much info out there to learn. I feel as though I've wasted way too much time on trivial stuff.

I've been accused of being a legalist more than a few times in the past and, frankly, coming from other Christians, I had to question myself if it weren't indeed true.

The difficult part for me is ...how does all of this play out in a practical sense...how is it to be applied???

After 10+ years of being immersed in A of G type Christianity I feel as though I don't even fully understand what true worship is...or real prayer, etc, etc...

I feel like I need to completely start from square one. All suggestions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated.


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## rembrandt (May 30, 2004)

biographies and more biographies. feed off of the dead saints that are there to cheer you on (heb. 12)! :bs2:

Paul


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## Craig (May 30, 2004)

Christopher-

Honestly, the best advice I can think of is finding a solid church and becoming part of that body. There should be many PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) bodies in that area. 

I'm a member of the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church); and there are a few in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. Here they are:

Dallas Northeast-Garland

NORTHEAST, meeting at the Seventh-day Adventist Building, 1702 Centerville Rd., Garland
Mail: P.O. Box 703457, Dallas, 75370
972/644-5400
Evangelist: Roger L. Gibbons
Service: 10:45 a.m. 

Dallas Southwest location:

Christ COVENANT, meeting at Wycliffe Bible Translators, 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd.
Mail: 949 Dunkirk Lane, Arlington 76017
214-293-7820
Pastor: Joseph A. Keller
Service: 11:00 a.m.
Sunday School: 9:45 a.m. 

Denton location:

REDEEMER, 1100 Cleveland Ave., 76201
Mail: P.O. Box 1642, 76202-1642
940/387-3479
Contact: Garry Mayes
Services: 10:45 a.m.; p.m. (call for time)
Sunday School: 9:45 a.m. 


Fort Worth location:

COVENANT (call for location)
Mail: P. O. Box 136400, 76136
817/989-9800
Pastor: Todd S. Bordow
Service: 11:00 a.m.
Sunday School: 10:00 a.m. 

I'm sure that Pastorway knows of Reformed Baptist churches around there too. I am more &quot;comfortable&quot; with the OPC generally than with PCA generally. There are great PCA churches, and there are many that have fallen captive to self help, seeker sensitive tendencies. I'm sure Fred could find out about that.

There is no substitute for being part of a body and being able to seek guidance from a Pastor or an Elder.


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## SmokingFlax (May 30, 2004)

Wow. Thanks Craig. Now I've got a few leads to follow up on.


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## Craig (May 30, 2004)

No prob Christopher!

Here is the OPC home page

Here is the PCA home page

And you may find THIS specific part of the OPC website helpful. It has links to other denoms that are biblically Reformed...I don't know if you'll find those in the Dallas area, but it's good to know who's actually in your area!

Sorry if I've thrown too much info on you at once.


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## SmokingFlax (May 31, 2004)

Hey Craig...

It looks like the info about those web-sites got lost in the translation somehow.

Checking out new churches can be so frustrating sometimes... A month or so ago I stepped into a church that called itself &quot;reformed&quot; on it's very name and was disappointed and shocked as to what I found. It was after the service and I walked in a side door and ran into one of their pastors. I asked him for some info about the church (doctrinal statements, etc) to which he kindly obliged. Then he handed me a business card and on the back of it it said something like 'we practice the positive kind of Christianity like Robert Schuller and Norman Vincent Peale'.!!!

I didn't know whether I should vomit or shout &quot;heretic!&quot; and run out the door...

I kept my composure and managed to walk quietly out of there.


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## Craig (May 31, 2004)

You mean the links don't work?

I tried them and they worked fine... 

If you need the info cut and past these sites

www.opc.org

www.pcanet.org

Navigating the OPC site should be easy and you can find the link to the other Reformed churches quickly.

I am willing to bet that &quot;Reformed&quot; church you went into was part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA). Schuller's church is RCA. Unbelieveable, huh? I can only think of 2 denoms where the title &quot;Reformed&quot; shouldn'd apply: The RCA and the CRC (Christian Reformed Church).


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## Contra_Mundum (May 31, 2004)

*The links are there in Craig's post...*

...you just need to put your cursor directly over the &quot;Here&quot; on those lines and then they highlight.


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## SmokingFlax (May 31, 2004)

Thanks Contra_Mundum,

That explains it. I have this ancient Macintosh that is very sluggish and often leaves out a lot of info from (whatever) web page I'm on. I thought that the url addresses were somehow not coming across.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 22, 2004)

[quote:cd9d5abc39="SmokingFlax"]Is it normal to experience a BUNCH of trials and testings in (your) life after you have switched into a more Calvinistic viewpoint?[/quote:cd9d5abc39]That is an interesting question. I come from a mixed background and was incouraged to think a bit for myself so I am not sure when I became a "Calvinist" as such. As I grew up (I am now 18) I had read the entire bible by the age of 15 and was already thinking a lot about it. So my churchs theology had hardly been drummed into me by the time I was learning my own...

It was only a few months ago I found this site and saw mostly what I already believed put into words. The names Calvinists and Puritans etc... have been demonised by my school teachers and I thought you lot were funny when hearing about your theology. Then I read on this site what you all believed and realised it was mostly what I believed. School had lied uzzled: 

If we make the point I became 'Calvinist' as of that date then yes I have been going through lots of trials since and continue since then to feel like i am being ground into the mud. 

I often hesitate to call myself 'Calvinist' but instead use such terms as 'Christian' (novel idea, when people ask 'what type' you say 'a real one' ) Even for impact I have been known to call myself fundamentalist as it really just means going back to basics (which we can all argue we do) and most people do not know what it means so I can evangalise at the same time.


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