# Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism?



## ReformedWretch (Jan 31, 2005)

Jesus is not only Lord, but KING! He is the head of all rulers and Kings having complete dominion at the time of the writing and all of the future.

1:19and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,

We, as the church are seated with Him ruling and reigning with Him was well.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places
2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
The promises of the covenant are applied literally to Gentiles within the Church.
2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The removal of the distinction of the Jew and Gentile is stressed!

2:12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

The building up of the Church is referred to as the building up of the Temple.

2:20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit

The New Testament Church is claimed to have been taught in the Old Testament, just not as clearly.

3:1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles-- 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Christ’s Kingly enthronement is celebrated by the pouring out of gifts upon His Church/Kingdom.

4:8Therefore it says,
"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
9(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers

Paul teaches that the Kingdom is spiritual rather than Political.

5:5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 31, 2005)

Good stuff.

And on a side note, of course Ephesians defeats Dispensationalism, it's a book of the Bible!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 31, 2005)

> And on a side note, of course Ephesians defeats Dispensationalism, it's a book of the Bible!


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 31, 2005)

No, Ephesians doesn't 'defeat' Dispensationalism. 

It may cause some issues for some aspects of classic dispensationalism, not as many problems with revised dispensationalism and NO problems with progressive dispensationalism.

Methinks you should really pick up Robert Saucy's book _The Case For Progressive Dispensationalism_.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > And on a side note, of course Ephesians defeats Dispensationalism, it's a book of the Bible!


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 14, 2005)

If Ephesians doesn't, these verses do:

*1 Corinthians 10:1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.*


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 14, 2005)

@ everyone looking for the 'magic bullet'. Learned folk who graduated from Dispensational seminaries or progressives wouldn't have issues with these passages at all. That's like some Norm Geisler fan coming up and saying 'John 3:16 defeats calvinism'


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## Larry Hughes (Feb 14, 2005)

Adam,

I would tend to agree that it does. Of course opposing constructs are always going to defend their position to the end. 

What I think is more interesting looking from the "outside" in so to speak is the paradigm shift going on toward the more true or more biblical stance (covenantal). Keep in mind that paradigm's shift very slowly.

What we do see on the one side is a continued movement toward the covenantal position without going all the way per se at the present in order to preserve the old paradigm some what. Though ultimately if it is incorrect it (the disp. paradigm) will fall eventually. Which one would expect as men study the Scriptures and learn truth. All should gravitate toward the true direction. If the true direction lay in between disp. and true cov. thinking then we would expect to see both gravitating. However, we are now seeing the traditional disp. move toward progressive disp. to "leaky" disp., etc... But what we don't see is Covenantal moving toward some "off-center" truth between Disp. and Cov. In other words we don't see covenantal moving from the traditional covenantal position toward digressive cov. to "walled-up" cov., etc... Rather we see it stable and stronger than ever.

So, I think the encouraging thing, the telling thing and the notable thing is the paradigm shift and which theological construct is moving toward which other theological construct and which is not as the Scriptures are studied more and more.

As such we see a one directional movement as a whole of the disp. paradigm increasingly toward the cov. paradigm though it (disp.) retains its name with more and more new, qualifying and restrictive adjectives added as it moves along.

ldh


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Adam,
> 
> I would tend to agree that it does. Of course opposing constructs are always going to defend their position to the end.
> ...



I am really hoping that Christianity move away from the Dispensational TBN type to covenantal. Dispensationalists are the most visible and when people want an opinion for Christians, they usually base it on the the Dispensationalists.


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## Larry Hughes (Feb 14, 2005)

Keon,

I would agree.

I went through a very brief phase of it shortly after conversion from atheism/agnosticism. Simply because it was most visible and I didn't know much within Christianity, ignorant I took it all at face value. It was quiet fascinating at the beginning I admit, kind of like UFOs. But it didn't last too long for me.

ldh


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## fredtgreco (Feb 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> @ everyone looking for the 'magic bullet'. Learned folk who graduated from Dispensational seminaries or progressives wouldn't have issues with these passages at all. That's like some Norm Geisler fan coming up and saying 'John 3:16 defeats calvinism'



And the fact that Arminians can rationalize Romans 11 doesn't make them any less wrong.

You're right in that there is no magic bullet - but that is because like Arminianism, Dispensationalism is such a bad system that it has problems all throughout the Bible.

Progressive Dispensationalists are like ER docs putting band-aids on an open jugular wound. It helps in the short term - but in the long run it does no good.


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by OS_X_
> ...



I would definitely agree with you on the Romans 11 thing. I still don't see how I 'missed that' all my years as a traditional dispensationalist.

I think the progressives are actually a lot 'closer' to being biblically accurate (because NO ONE is 100% biblically accurate) than the classics....


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



I assume you guys are talking about Romans 9 with reference to Arminianism.


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by OS_X_
> ...



You guys, meaning Progressives ?


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## Presbyrino (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...





Brother, calm down. No need to retort with insults & ad-hominems (which I'm afraid do not show your attitude to be any different then the one you are hurling insults and accusations too). It blows any credibility that you might have in your arguments.

[Edited on 2/16/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## fredtgreco (Feb 15, 2005)

And the ad hominem posts Steve referred to go poof. Let's not see it again.

Thanks for your comments, Steve. You are completely right.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Adam,
> 
> I would tend to agree that it does. Of course opposing constructs are always going to defend their position to the end.
> ...



That's refreshing Larry. I pray it's correct too!


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by tcalbrecht_
> ...



No, "you guys" meaning you and Fred. You both referenced Romans 11 in the context of Arminianism. I assume you meant Romans 9, the classic anti-Arminian passage about the potter & clay.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 15, 2005)

I have a question for you, Kerry:

In as few sentences as possible, will you define _Progressive Dispensationalism_, how it is different from Classic Disp. 

Are you hopeful or pessimistic about the future? or more pessimistic or less pessimistic? 

All I have been able to gather about Progress. Disp. is that you are more covenantal than Ryrie. That, while commendable, does not help me much given the "Covenant Confusion" in the Reformed Church today. 

Secondly, on a scale of less covenantal to more covenantal (or even, hyper covenatal) where would Progressive fall

Clarence Larkin----------Ryrie-----------Reformed Baptist-------O Palmer Robertson------------Doug Wilson


Where would progressive Dispensationalism fall?

[Edited on 2--16-05 by Draught Horse]

[Edited on 2--16-05 by Draught Horse]


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## Larry Hughes (Feb 15, 2005)

Jacob,

As a scientist I must say I love the scale. Nice and quantifiable!

lh


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 16, 2005)

*And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Galatians 6:16

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations!
Revelation 15:3

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Romans 10:12

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Colossians 3:11

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Ephesians 4:4-6

I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1 Corinthians 10:1-5*


Kerry, can you explain these from your PD perspective for me? I'm curious and clueless as to what you would have to say about such verses.


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## Average Joey (Feb 16, 2005)

Though I disagree with his PD views,I really like Kerry.He also has a very good website.

[Edited on 2-16-2005 by Average Joey]


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> Though I disagree with his PD views,I really like Kerry.He also has a very good website.
> 
> [Edited on 2-16-2005 by Average Joey]



Thanks Joe  That really means a lot.

Written - I'll respond 2morrow, since I'll have more time then. I'll cite some PD authors so you can get it 'from the horse's mouth', so to speak.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by OS_X]


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