# Charismatic Landmines!!!



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 13, 2003)

This post is not intentioned to be overly critical, but I feel like the topic should be addressed. 

Today I entered church and found a seat near the back, making sure to sit by an isle, so I can strech my legs (I am 6'5) and be confident noone will sit next to me, at least on that side. 

To my shigrin, however a couple of middle aged women sat down next to me. I didn't think to much of it at the time, but once the worship music started, I knew there would be trouble. The lady two seats over started dancing in place and clapping her hands, while the other lady raised her hands at every key change and cresendo. Hoping I could turn away from them by angling myself towards the isle I did so, but to little avail, the 70yr. old lady in front of me was consumed by the same bug. 

I found this terribly distracting, what should I do. When I enter churches I try and find a place where I will not be distracted, where I can think about the words of a song, pray, and examine the text to be preached. Unfortunately, however, the ground was hot today, and charismatic explosions where happening all around me. 

Is this appropriate behavior? Am I the problem (I am a big stoic German  )? How do I handle this? 

Your suggestions and comments would be greatly appreciated. For those who are charismatic, in the sense of raising thier hands, can you please explain to me why you do this? I see many do it to be noticed, which is even more distracting than those who seem to do it generally. Your help is needed. This is a serious issue for me, because church is a serious issue. 

Thanks,
Sancta


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Jul 13, 2003)

Just reading about it gives me a migrane  I would find another place to worship. Pentecostalism is whack no apologies here but it is. I grew up pentecostal so trust me on this. Look for another place,and yes its not you its them.

In Christ
Blade


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 13, 2003)

Stunner,
They are not penecostals, they are baptists! Can you believe it?! I am not ready to look for another church...yet. The preaching is just too good. Pastor Piper is amazing, and often makes up for the nusance of charismatic demonstrations during worship. 

Sancta

Oh, and all the music they sing is theologically sound, which is an awesome blessing.


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Jul 13, 2003)

John Piper????

Dang no wonder you put up with it,he is an excellent preacher by the way.

KRAZY!!!

In Christ 
Blade


----------



## LawrenceU (Jul 13, 2003)

Lifting of the hands in worship, prayer, and praise is a Biblical practise.

So is dance.

There is a place for quiet reverence and there is a place for exuberance.


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Jul 13, 2003)

I prefer quite reverence


blade


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 13, 2003)

Lawrence,
I agree with you, occasionally, I do those things, but is the church the right place for that? I guess that is my question.

Oh, and blade I am with you on this one.

[Edited on 7-13-2003 by Sancta-fixation]


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jul 13, 2003)

Personally,
I believe the reformed could use a dose of this exuberance. Sancta, not that being stoic is bad (since becoming reformed, I am very much reserved in worship) but I believe the marriage supper of the lamb will be the celebration of celebrations!!!
As was said previously, the raising of the hands, dance etc is very biblical.


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 13, 2003)

Thanks Scott, is there a way to be exuberant without being overly distracting? I do not have problems with those who raise thier hands at appropriate time, but many rasie their hands during key changes and choruses, not necessarily the most theologically driven part of the song. If people were raising thier hands during a part in which the theology was particually good, and dear to heart, I may not have as much problem, but to raise hands in conjunction with the music and not the lyrics seems backwards. Do not get me wrong I have enjoyed the dynamics of this the church. But why raise your hands and jump at HOLY HOLY HOLY. Shouldn't you be closing your eyes and kneeling? Saying woe is me, I am undone? 

I guess this raises a second issue shouldn't music match the lyrics? Does a happy go lucky song match lyrics with speak of holiness and crucifixion? Sure if we are singing about dancing on golden streets, then I can handle it, but frivolous music combined with Holiness, I think not!

Again, I agree that dancing and raising of hands are biblical activites, for the record.



[Edited on 7-13-2003 by Sancta-fixation]


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jul 13, 2003)

Just because something is mentioned in the Bible &quot;i.e. dancing, lifting hands, etc.&quot;does not give us liscence to do it whenever you want. There is a time and place. If you feel these people are too much of a distraction I'd discuss it with the elders and ask their opinion. Personally, coming from a pentacostal background, I find those activities rather distracting. When we gather together in the congregation we should be reverent before the holy God we serve and considerate of those around us.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jul 13, 2003)

Puritan,
It is not less than worshipful to express these characteristics during worship. Scripture supports this type of worship. Obviously Pastor Piper and his congregation are not distracted. This is quite possibly an issue of understanding. The church I attend would agree that these issues are indeed God glorifying, yet we do not encourage the practice. However, I do not believe one would be chided for the act.

[Edited on 7-13-2003 by Scott Bushey]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Jul 13, 2003)

When I think of worship primarilly singing psalms to our God I think of God leading us out of the bondage of slavery in Egypt I see it as a song of victory,encouragement, and praise to our God for his never ending Love of us.
Im partially with you there Scott I like to see us as Gods people having Joy in our Lord. But Im more of the guy in the corner of the bar reading and maybe just sitting there taking in all that is going on I more so take Joy in seeing people taking Joy in our Lord.
I may be a bit biased because Ive come form a pentecostal background and seen how FAKE they are.

In Christ
Blade


----------



## ChristianasJourney (Jul 13, 2003)

I'm not charasmatic, by any stretch of the imagination...and the only time I venture to raise my hands is when I'm singing &quot;we lift our hands before you...&quot; and it seems hypocritical not to. With that said this conversation reminds me a little of the &quot;Great Awakening&quot; and all the concern over the shakings and quakings that occured in the church.  As J. Edwards might say: This is not necessarily caused by the movement of the Spirit, nor may it not be caused by the movement of the Spirit... However, perhaps we should leave it to God to judge their motives and heart.

As for references which might help: Ex. 15:20 - Mirarim, 2 Sam 6, Psa 47, Psa 63, Psa 149:3, etc. Perhaps extra attention should be given to 2 Sam 6:16, where Michael is cursed for dispising David in her heart when he danced before the Lord.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jul 13, 2003)

I too have seen how fake such people can be. But I am not so restrictive as to say their are no believers among them who practice such. But it has been my experience that those who are pursuing those &quot;charasmatic&quot; elements of worship are seeking an emotional experience, not the Lord. I'm by know means lumping you all in that category because I don't know you but that has simply been my experience. And I also question the manner in which those scripture passages are interpreted. How did the OT saints &quot;lift their hands&quot; in worship? I doubt it was in the same manner as is done today. And as for dancing, the only passage I am aware of mentioning dancing is regarding David. But that seems to me to be the exception not the rule. We read of no dancing occuring in the regular OT worship or in the NT for that matter. When using such passages to justify our worship practice we must see if our interpretations of them really do fit into the context of those passages. 

PuritanSailor


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 13, 2003)

Thanks Puritansailor, 
You said it better than myself. I agree with you...for the most part. I would only clarify one statement that of seeking an emotional experience. I would only say that the pusuit of God is both intellectual and effectual, and that knowing God should necessarily mean loving and having affections for God. (I am sure you meant that I only thought I would clarify.) 

I have not made any decision on the subject yet. I do know that many who raise thier hands in worship to genuinely do it out of a longing for the Lord, but there are others who do it to look like they have a genuine longing for the Lord. It is an easy trap to fall into, especially in a large church, where many eyes can see you. I whole heartedly agree that dancing before the Lord and raising your hands in worship (whatever that means) are biblical actions, actions I do myself at home, alone, with caedmon's call (usually) playing. But I refrain from doing it at church. I owuld much rather be solem, reflexive and clear headed, so that I can get the most out of the lyrics and the sermon. But I know that is not how everyone worships, though I think some should lean more towards that line of thinking instead of singing a song despite the words, or the combination of words and music. 

Anyway more change :wr50: from me.


----------



## pastorway (Jul 14, 2003)

Briefly:

1. Why is a Biblical expression of worship distracting?

2. Are any of us suppossed to be watching our neighbors as they worship instead of worshipping God ourselves?

3. A simple solution appears to be a change of seating.

Just a few thoughts.....

Phillip


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 14, 2003)

1.) Not all are doing it biblically
2.) Where can I go where people will not stick thier hands in my face, and where can I go to have them out of my line of sight?

All in all, easier said than done. If the problem is with me, how do I fix it?


----------



## blhowes (Jul 14, 2003)

Sancta-fixation,
Sounds like you're attending a pretty decent church. You might consider what I've done in the past when other kinds of distractions (kids passing notes, people falling asleep, etc) seemed to pull my attention away from worshipping God. If possible, move right up to the front row so it'll be easier to focus your attention away from what's going on in the congregation behind you. 

I have mixed feelings about the raising of hands, etc. during the worship service. I'm actually working through this in my own mind as we're still searching for a church home and one of the churches we're considering is a little &quot;freer&quot; in their worship expression than what I'm used to. They also have a Christian rock band, made up of some of the church youth and an adult, that provides accompanyment once a month during the services. Not what I'm most comfortable with, but its given me an opportunity for self-evaluation.

The raising of hands as a form of worship is biblical - I ask myself why I'm so uncomfortable with it? (no answer yet). When done biblically, what does the raising of hands mean or signify? Why does God want us to raise our hands?

The church we visited was a baptist church. I appreciate the fact that those who choose to lift up their hands are discreet about it. They raise up their hands within their &quot;own space&quot; and don't bring much attention to themselves. 

The Christian rock band played mostly hymns, which is nice for somebody like myself who's trying to adjust to the different music style during a worship service. The only part I had a little problem with was when the lead guitarist did some amazingly fast guitar licks and then finished it off by smashing his guitar on one of the pews (just kidding). 

Bob


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 15, 2003)

Thanks Bob, 
Sounds like we are at similar places are far as worship goes. I have sat in the front before and it helps, it has a large auditorium so sitting in front causes some neck strain, but it is probably worth it. I too an still working on what it means to raise ones hands in worship. I have heard some say it is similar to &quot;helping out or lending a hand&quot; and others who hold to actually lifting ones hands up during music, I tend to favor the first interpretation, but then again it may be isogesis. 

Looser worship can be a marvolous blessing, and at the same time be distracting. I would tell you to do as I am doing, continue to pray and search the word. Also get info from other godly men and women (For example: post a thread).

Thanks again Bob, I will pray for your church hunt. 
Sancta


----------



## blhowes (Jul 15, 2003)

sancta,
Thank-you for your prayers and I'll heed your advice to continue to pray and search the scriptures.

I was curious about what others believed about the raising of hands, so I started to do an internet search, but then decided to do a scripture search instead. After looking at the search results, I'm starting to think that there may be some really good reasons to raise our hands during the worship service (or private worship, for that matter). Check out the verses that came up when I searched for &quot;lift AND hands&quot;.

(Psa 28:2) Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

(Psa 63:4) Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

(Psa 119:48) My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

(Psa 134:2) Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

(Lam 2:19) Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

(Lam 3:41) Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

(Heb 12:12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

One of the reasons to lift up our hands is because it is one way to bless the Lord. If you use bible software, check out the verses that come up when you search for &quot;bless the Lord&quot;. It's a real blessing.

Maybe as we better understand what it means to lift up our hands, we can move back from the front row and join our brothers and sisters in blessing the Lord.

Stoically wondering,

Bob


----------



## Gregg (Jul 15, 2003)

Greetings,
This may seem like an over simple solution, but perhaps you can move to the very front row seating where you can strech out plus have all the distractions behind you. For years I have always sat near the back. Now I moved near the front, and it seems like I can concentrate on the worship service better with less distractions.

Gregg

[Edited on 7-16-2003 by Gregg]


----------



## blhowes (Jul 16, 2003)

Gregg,
Sometimes those simple solutions are the best ones. Good thinking.
Bob


----------



## wsw201 (Jul 16, 2003)

I have grown up in Reformed Presbyterian Churches all my life and have never witnessed any lifting of hands or dancing. But then again we are known as the &quot;frozed chosen&quot; 

But seriously, Reformed worship is about being ushered into the very throne room of God. In Isaiah, Ezekiel or Revelations there is no evidence of this type of activity going on when people came before the throne of God. In addition, the only dancing that I can remember mentioned in Scripture was David dancing before the ark when it was being transported. His dancing was in the streets, not the temple.


----------



## thoughtfuldave (Jul 17, 2003)

*raising hands?*

I am a former charismatic...

I did not know as a new convert what was expected in the house of the Lord. I was taught what is acceptable by my charismatic teachers. I lifted my hands because I was told that this is how the &quot;spiritual&quot; people do it. When you are truly &quot;experiencing&quot; the presence of the Lord and have"brokenness&quot; in your life, you are apt to raise your hands. On the Flip side, I as a &quot;worship&quot; leader would watch those who lifted their hands and those who did not and could tell who was indeed broken and surrendered before the Lord. I could also tell who was hard hearted and in the flesh...may I even say...in REBELLION?!??! If this does not turn your stomach, then I wonder what would??

I cringe when I hear that this is just simple worship, or that these folks are just lifting up their clean hands before the Lord (as I have heard it taught...or like little children raising up their arms to Papa). This is a practice that is TAUGHT and &quot;aped&quot;. King David and the Saints would raise their hands TOWARDS God's temple as that was their hope, namely the sacrifices and their pointing to Christ. To use, as the charismatics do, the lifting up of "holy hands" and the OT saint's examples is to go beyond the intention of the text of scripture. 

Raising hands is something that is taught and aped. It is a distraction and (how frightening) takes away from the Lord's Worship. We are not in church for ourselves, but for the Lord. I sometimes feel like running up to the pulpit and pounding it and screaming, &quot;AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!!!&quot; Why cannot I do this, though I feel as if my heart will burst if I do not do it? There are times where conviction could make me groan or stamp my feet, but I do not as I make my flesh subject to me and I am conscious that we are in a place of reverence. Worship is to ascribe worth. It is not about self!! It is about ascribing Glory to this king of Kings, The Almighty! There is blood poured out in this place, there should be great mourning and Awe. There are Angels around us and they wonder and long to look into these things of Grace. 

Since when do we let our exuberance dictate what is acceptable in the house of God? We have several people in our church who are wracked with Cancer, one a young father...I would be distracted thinking of his sadness and deep reflection while others in the church wanted to "party". What of the one whose husband has just died, the sinner who comes in off the street weighed down with the horrors of conviction, the frazzled single mother. 

The bible says that those that are happy should sing a psalm...let these happy people be encouraged to lift up their voices and lead us in singing the songs of Zion! Let the joy they feel come from within and extend on outside of the church walls as they bind up the broken hearted and feed the hungry! Any action that is done that distracts from the Worship of God should be done away with. The flesh must be subdued. When lifting hands and doing a little dance becomes the sign of revival in my church, is the day that I leave it! 

I left with the tatters of my faith from the l cruel and legalistic people of my former Charismatic church. These were a group of people who judged holiness and spiritual things based upon outward actions. Simply stated, God was moving when the people were moving...or worse yet, God would not move unless the people moved. 

God have mercy as the children sit down to play...

Love in Christ,

David Stair


----------



## thoughtfuldave (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: Edwards*

I belive that He was much displeased when these &quot;manefestation&quot; occured during the great awakening. I belive he stated, &quot;the mist always rises when the sun shines on the swamp&quot; speaking of religeous excitments...


----------



## twogunfighter (Jul 17, 2003)

I couldn't have said it better myself


----------



## ChristianasJourney (Jul 17, 2003)

Christopher posted this on another thread, but I feel that the same thing applies to hand raising in worship as well, as perhaps other things we do which isn't clearly directed, nor is it forbidden.


[quote:b282d17352]
Christopher:
The definition of genuflection is the bowing of the knee in homage.[i:b282d17352] However, in the religious sphere it is much broader. It is any outward or physical showing of reverance. It should only be done if the inward reverance is there as well or it is mockery. [/i:b282d17352]
[/quote:b282d17352]

[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jul 18, 2003)

[quote:2b1d520ee7][i:2b1d520ee7]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:2b1d520ee7]
Christopher posted this on another thread, but I feel that the same thing applies to hand raising in worship as well, as perhaps other things we do which isn't clearly directed, nor is it forbidden.

[/quote:2b1d520ee7]

[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney] [/quote]

We do not define our practice by whether the Scripture forbids it or not. We should be defining our practice by what is specifically commanded in Scripture. That is one thing that still troubles me about Reformed churches today, they still haven't fully applied that principle yet. 

Just another curious note about &quot;lifting of hands&quot;. It was common early Puritan practice to actually lift their hands and eyes &quot;to heaven&quot; in private prayer rather than bowing the head as is practiced today. I think the minister also did this when praying in the congregation. But it was never done in singing. Just thought this a curious appendage to this discussion. 

&quot;Read a chapter in the same order as was prescribed in the morning; and when thou hast done, kneel down on thy knees at the bedside, or some other convenient place in thy chamber, and lifting up thy heart, eyes, and hands, to thy heavenly Father, in the name and meditation of his holy Son Jesus, pray to him.&quot; The Practice of Piety, pg. 134, by Lewis Bayly. 
:wr51:
I thought that was interesting especially in light of most of those scriptures quoted above, that lifting of hands seemed to take place mostly in the context of prayer, not singing.

[Edited on 7-18-2003 by puritansailor]


----------



## kceaster (Jul 18, 2003)

*The Apostle...*

I watched a little bit of this movie last week, starring Robert Duvall. Now the thing that struck me is that this is a depiction of what goes on in exuberant worship. The only problem with this is, these are actors getting paid to act like normal church folk in &quot;exuberant&quot; worship.

But having seen &quot;exuberant&quot; worship first hand, I cannot tell the difference between what I saw in that movie and what I saw in real life.

Perhaps this does not mean anything to most of you. Because I could watch a stoic worship service in a movie and have it have the same effect of real life. Art does reflect reality.

However, if it is easy to look as if one is praising God in this movie; one looks as if they are genuinely worshipping God in Spirit and truth, but they act the same as those who are really supposed to be worshipping (not acting), it clouds the mind.

Is it acting or is it genuine?

Genuine is not acting. We should be able to tell the difference.

But what Sancta described at the very outset can be seen in many movies that portray it. So my question is:

Is it acting like worship, or is it actual worship?

Perhaps I am too melancholy and stoic myself. But I cannot bring myself to exuberance (outwardly celebrative) while in worship. I have done so before and I can tell you that it is not what it should have been.

Before a Holy God, lifting up holy hands is one thing. The perspective is clear.

Humility and exuberance can be found in the same body, but In my humble opinion it is reserved.

You can quote David dancing before the Lord all you want to. That scenario was not in formal worship. We have no record of the Angels, who worship day and night, dancing and throwing up their arms in all sorts of ways. Nor can we find this practice in Synagogue worship or the early church worship.

If it can be acted with equal fervor by a completely unregenerate person, is it real and should we be doing it in the audience of a Holy God?

In Christ,

KC


----------



## ChristianasJourney (Jul 18, 2003)

[quote:cadc4583c9][i:cadc4583c9]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:cadc4583c9]

But having seen &quot;exuberant&quot; worship first hand, I cannot tell the difference between what I saw in that movie and what I saw in real life.

However, if it is easy to look as if one is praising God in this movie; one looks as if they are genuinely worshipping God in Spirit and truth, but they act the same as those who are really supposed to be worshipping....

Is it acting or is it genuine? [/quote:cadc4583c9]

Isn't this always possible in every aspect of life? A person may appear to have Christian charity, may appear to be a Christian, and even share reformed views. May fool us and even himself, but in the end God says &quot;I never knew you&quot; (Matthew 7:25) 

How are we to judge others (and should we?) on whether their worship is an act to impress men or is an overflow of the heart. We judge their Christianity based upon the fruits of their life, but even this may not be accurate according to Mt. 7:25. Even David who was called a man after God's heart, if we would have lived with him, at times we would have questioned his Christianity, and perhaps questioned the sincerity of his repentance, and worship. If we cannot tell the state of another person's soul how are we going to judge whether their worship is &quot;in spirit and in truth&quot;. As God told Samuel, paraphrased, &quot;you look the outside, but I look at the heart.&quot;



[quote:cadc4583c9]Perhaps I am too melancholy and stoic myself. But I cannot bring myself to exuberance (outwardly celebrative) while in worship. I have done so before and I can tell you that it is not what it should have been. [/quote:cadc4583c9] 

I am introverted. It defies my personality to be so outwardly exuberant. As I indicated in a previous post, if I'm going to sing &quot;Holy, Holy, Holy,...I lift my hands before you, as a token of my love....&quot; I am going to lift my hands. But, outside of that, I NEVER lift my hands when worshipping. With that said...
[quote:cadc4583c9]

Before a Holy God, lifting up holy hands is one thing. [/quote:cadc4583c9]

Lifting hands seems to me very Biblical. It is done in both blessing, and prayer, and much of worship is prayer. Most the songs we sing in worship are prayers to God. (Ex. 9:29, Ex. 9:39, 1 Ki. 8:22 1 Ki. 8:38, 1 Ki 8:54, Neh. 8:6, Job 11:13, Ps. 47:1 (clapping), Ps. 134:2 (in blessing), Ps. 141:2 

[quote:cadc4583c9]
You can quote David dancing before the Lord all you want to. That scenario was not in formal worship. 
[/quote:cadc4583c9]

David, though, is not the only example of dancing (and while I understand your point, I really do,) David may have considered it to be a more formal worship. They were on their way to the tabernacle in Jerusalem. He was bringing the Ark &quot;home&quot; to it's resting place. The people of Israel were rejoicing with him...and the dancing in my opinion was evidence of that joy. An overflowing of the emotions of the heart.

I agree there are not many examples of dancing in Scripture, but neither is David the only example. Ex. 15:20 Miriam is dancing before the Lord, because their enemies have been destroyed. Ps. 30:11 says God will turn our mourning into dancing. Ps. 149:3 &quot;Let them praise His name and Dance&quot;. Ps 150:4 &quot;Praise Him with Timbrel and dance.&quot; (These seem to be rather direct instructions.) Jer. 34:4 God speaking, &quot;I will build thee,...thou shalt...go forth and dance&quot;.

Just my food for thought.

I, for one, am not convinced that we should [i:cadc4583c9]not[/i:cadc4583c9] be doing these things. And it causes me enough hesitation that I'm not going to judge someone else who does.

[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


----------



## wsw201 (Jul 18, 2003)

Individual responses to God's grace is fine, but we are talking about corporate worship by the Church. I would highly recommend a very good book by D.G. Hart titled &quot;With Reverence and Awe&quot;. The book is about reclaiming Reformed worship in the Church. As Hart notes, the Churches worship reflects its theology. Dancing and spontaneously lifting of hands may fit Charismatic Theology, but does it fit into Reformed Theology? I don't believe it does.


----------



## ChristianasJourney (Jul 18, 2003)

I obviously am missing something. uzzled:

I thought theology is supposed to mirror the Bible. I'm reformed, because in my opinion reformed theology mirrors the Bible best. I'm not charasmatic, I don't think of myself as charasmatic, I've seldom attended a charasmatic church. By not addressing this subject in my own mind I see myself in danger of ignoring the truths of the Bible because it doesn't fit in with my Reformed theology. To me that could be a very dangerous way of thinking.

I don't understand how we can determine that the Bible passages are for personal and not corporate worship. Particularly in the examples of Miriam and David, neither were praising God by themselves, both were worshipping with the nation of Israel...and if David was not involved in corporate worship leading the way into the city, it would seem to me that when the Ark reached the Tabernacle he would've been.

I'm obviously having a hard time differentiating between when a passage refers to corporate or personal worship. What am I missing that is apparently so obvious to everyone else :question:



[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney]


----------



## kceaster (Jul 18, 2003)

*Janice...*

[quote:ac457ba972][i:ac457ba972]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:ac457ba972]
I obviously am missing something. uzzled:

I thought theology is supposed to mirror the Bible. I'm reformed, because in my opinion reformed theology mirrors the Bible best. I'm not charasmatic, I don't think of myself as charasmatic, I've seldom attended a charasmatic church. By not addressing this subject in my own mind I see myself in danger of ignoring the truths of the Bible because it doesn't fit in with my Reformed theology. To me that could be a very dangerous way of thinking.

I don't understand how we can determine that the Bible passages are for personal and not corporate worship. Particularly in the examples of Miriam and David, neither were praising God by themselves, both were worshipping with the nation of Israel...and if David was not involved in corporate worship leading the way into the city, it would seem to me that when the Ark reached the Tabernacle he would've been.

I'm obviously having a hard time differentiating between when a passage refers to corporate or personal worship. What am I missing that is apparently so obvious to everyone else :question:



[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney] [/quote:ac457ba972]

A good place to start is the regulative principle. Do you believe that God has ordained a particular way He wants to be worshiped? Or, do you believe that God does not care about the how, but does care about the why?

There is an important distinction between these two. The reformed have always (at least until recently) believed that the worship of God is regulative and not normative.

So, one must decide whether or not the Bible teaches that God has prescribed worship in a regulative or a normative way.

In Christ,

KC


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 18, 2003)

Am I mistaken, was not Mariam and David celebrating national victories, or national events? Seems, to me they were national events and should have been accompanied by joy, but at the same time I can see and easy transition to solemnity upon arriving at the tabernacle. 

Grace has a way of producing both joy and fear, at least it should. Look at Peter in Luke 5. Christ graced them with a great haul of fish, but instead of rejoicing and hoping up and down, he said, &quot;Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord&quot; Grace produced fear, a sense of unworthiness. 

Soveriegn election should produce both great joy and great sorrow, and a recognition &quot;that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked&quot; (Rev. 3:17). Election should fill us with anticipation, but sober us with sacrifice. This mixture of emotion is one of the things that makes the cross so beautiful. It is the highlight of our salvation, where the devil was crushed beneath God's heal, and our future joy in heaven was marked in stone. But is also demonstates our wretchedness, our depravity. I often ponder death, the death of Christians that is, because I feel that same sense of meloncholy. Joy at knowing where they live, and sorrow at thier passing and the curse of sin. This kind of meloncholy should be absored in every worship service. GOD's GRACE NECESSARILY POINTS TO OUR DEPRAVITY. 

With those things in mind and in light of what puritan sailor said earlier about contexts, the lifting of hands is more a symbol of depravity and helplessness, than it is of exuberance. 

Is there pure joy in the christian life? Not on this side of heaven. The highs we feel should bind us. I imagine it is like having a child (I do not have any so it is pure speculation) but the anticipation of a child could lead to dancing, but the birth of the child, at that moment leads to binding joy. You do not want to frolick around the room like a new born goat, rather you absorb your joy with tears. 

For me this is what church should be like, joy on the way to worship the Lord, and joy so intense your heart could burst, but tamed by an acknowledgement of God's sacrifice on your behalf. 

Hopefully this is clear, Christians that remain stoic in worship services are not necessarily unfeeling. They may be more astir with emotion than those bouncing and dancing. Personally, I am of the first group, and find it hard to believe those who lift thier hands are not missing something of the gospel. There is not grace where they is not need first. 

Perhaps if I saw a broken-hearted joy, accompaning the raising of hands, I may think diffrently about the whole issue. Sadly, I see unadulterated exuberance more.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jul 18, 2003)

*Christian Joy*

How do we properly express joy? This has been posed to many many a time by my charasmatic and arminian friends in reference to worship. Contemperory worship does indeed look joyful, and having partaken in it most of my life I experienced wonderful emotions with it. But then I had to ask my self, is this the right way to express joy in worship? Should we just &quot;let the Spirit move you&quot; or cast away all our restraint in expressing our joy? Love, joy, and peace, are all fruits of the Spirit, but so are meekness, gentleness, and most importantly self control. All these are fruits of the Spirit, and must not contradict one another. Our love and joy in Christ though overwhelming in the heart, must not make us lose control of our actions and emotions. I by no means contend that we have no joy at all. Joy is an unavoidable and necessary fruit of knowing Christ. But we must keep balance. I know none of you here are advocating the &quot;let loose and let God&quot; philosophy in worship but we all still have that sinful tendency to take a good thing to a sinful end. I'm not saying I've found all the answers in this arena either, for I still struggle with it. But I do know that I now find great comfort in the boundaries of the regulative principle. But perhaps this little input may generate some thoughts from the rest of you.


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 20, 2003)

Today, a week later after my original post, produced a completely diffrent worship service. It is bazzare. Why did I a week after a hand lifting service, find my self in a very reserved service. Last week many, many people were raising thier hands (80-100), today very few (4-5), why the dramatic turn around? I think I have a couple answers, though it could be anything, 1.) Today was rainy, last week was sunny and bright. 2.) Last week there was electirc guitar and drums, this week was rather plain, bass guitar, acuostic, and a couple piano's. The music was similar, and the theology was, once again, good. There may be other things I don't know about, but I think those are the best bets. Though I think if weather and accompaniment dictate religious affections or at least the manifestations of it, there is a serious problem goinging on. 

I love my church, but worry about this area of it. The church is a blessing to many, but I believe hot and cold manifestations of religious affections does not display grounded theology. One of the better aspects of the regulative principal is consistency, and that consistency can shoot down deep roots. 

Sancta-fixation


----------



## LawrenceU (Jul 20, 2003)

I would caution against observations of others displays of worship. Our congregation can be jubilant one week and reserved the next. In looking back one can usually see that God has been working in varied manners and it causes a varied response.


----------



## Sancta-fixation (Jul 20, 2003)

Lawrence,
I agree with you, and I will heed your caution, only from the outside looking in. If I visited this my church the last two sundays, without prior history, I would wonder if a tradgedy had happend. It seems an inconsistency, but I will heed your warning. I will leave the thread open to the theology, and rightness or wrongness of the demonstration, rather than surface level observations.

Thanks--Sancta


----------



## wsw201 (Jul 21, 2003)

Janice,

When I talk about corporate worship and KC talks about the Regulative Principle, we are talking about what Scripture prescribes for believers when they come together as the Church for worship. Consider 1 Cor 14. Here Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that there needs to be order in the Church. That what is to be done is to be done for the edification of all not for self edification. There is nothing particularly wrong with lifting your hands up during the worship service. Unfortunately it has gotten a bad rap because it is so associated with the Charismatic movement. But is it appropriate for someone to start praying out loud during the sermon? or sing a different hymn from the one the rest of the congregation is singing? Or lifting their hands when everone else has their hands to their sides or clasped together? This is what I mean as to personal vs corporate worship. What we do as the Church we do together.

As far as our worship matching our theology, I agree with you that Reformed Theology is what the Bible teaches. But there are distinctives within Reformed worship that are different from say an Arminian worship service. Hopefully, you will not see an &quot;alter call&quot; at a Reformed Church as compared to an Arminian Church where they are trying to get someone to make a &quot;decision&quot; for Christ. The alter call fits with Arminian Theology and would be considered appropriate for their service.


----------



## PASSION4TRUTH (Sep 15, 2003)

I am sure you hate me using this word again but BALANCE.....BALANCE. Exuberance and Reverence, Sorrow and Joy, Head and Heart, Preaching and Singing, Sovereignty and Responsibility. Appreciate the fact that you are reflective and quiet and that your Christian friends are more expressive with their body. Do not allow any personal views to hinder your encounter with Christ.


----------



## canuk (Sep 19, 2003)

*lifting of hands*

1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting. 

If anything it states that men should be the only ones lifting up their hands. Also if we want to take the verse in its plain translation, it states every place, so does that mean that we sould be lifting our hands in the grocery store?


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Sep 20, 2003)

[quote:ff4d70de47][i:ff4d70de47]Originally posted by canuk[/i:ff4d70de47]
1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting. 

If anything it states that men should be the only ones lifting up their hands. Also if we want to take the verse in its plain translation, it states every place, so does that mean that we sould be lifting our hands in the grocery store? [/quote:ff4d70de47]

Notice also that this lifting of hands is for prayer, not for singing  
I think what he means by &quot;every place&quot; is in all the churches, but I'll have to review the context.


----------



## exscentric (Feb 20, 2004)

WORSHIP IN THE MELTING POT has some good points on the topic.

Read a Charismatic author years ago that said the problem with the fundamentalist was that they had brains. He continued that the fundies should box their brains up and put them on a rocket and fly them to the moon.

Now, I may miss his point, but it seems he said to worship like a Charismatic you have to be brainless.  :wr51:


----------



## turmeric (Feb 20, 2004)

I also am reading this thread looking for guidance. I think I have a hangup or two. The hands thing I can put up with, I think Calvin said it was biblical, which must make it so!:biggrin: There's some kids I visit sometimes in their home group who do this, and who crouch when they pray,etc. If they're doing it for attention, I don't think they know it, they seem very sincere, but their continual level of enthusiasm, unremitting love of all things emotional, i.e.John Piper &amp; Keith Green (I honestly don't think most of them can tell the difference!) is worrying. BTW, Love Piper! They get distracting to me and when they start worshipping I want to escape, which makes me wonder what's wrong with me. Don't I love God?


----------



## A_Wild_Boar (Feb 21, 2004)

I used to go to a mega semi charismatic seeker sensitive dispie church. They raised hands and some even did little dances while the LOUD music played. It didn't bother me other than the noise. 

Now that I think back to it, many of those folks only picked that church because of the entertainment instead of the theology. 

The only time I was really bothered was when some guy sat next to me pretending to ride a motorcycle. What a loon, he would hold his hands up like he was on the bike and made motorcycle sounds. He would jolt back and make a sound like he was peeling out, then hitting his brakes. He kept on doing it over and over. I wanted to leave, but prayed may way through it.

Scott knows the church - it was CC. 

Anyway it has nothing to do with this thread now that I think about it, but I spent all this time writing it, sorry y'all had to hear it.

But yeah, the raising hands thing isnt all that bad. Pull out the snakes and arsenic and I am outa there.


----------



## wsw201 (Feb 25, 2004)

Meg,

There is nothing wrong with you. It is distracting.


----------

