# Which Seminary Would You Choose for this Approach?



## Theoretical (Jan 29, 2007)

As a preface, I am a Political Science undergraduate student looking at a number of different options vocationally, especially within academia. With that in mind, I am considering Lay MA Theological Studies-type degrees, preferably with language programs, because I wish to gain a strong theological education that I could perhaps use in doctoral academic theological studies, religious history degrees, or providing a theological training to approach historical, legal, or political studies.

At this time, I do _not_ believe I am in any way called to pastoral ministry, as I do not believe I'm even remotely spiritually mature enough to take on that high and valuable office. Even though some around me have suggested I undertake this course, I think it would only be after I've grown from living responsibly in a different vocation and raising a family that I *might* reconsider this option.

Nonetheless, I do want the training, at the very minimum to provide a rich pool of learning for my future children, and I also believe I could serve my local church well with this sort of intermediate training.

So in answering this poll, I'd appreciate reasons why you would recommend the chosen seminary in particular from among my listed choices.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

From what I know of other seminaries I voted for both WTS CA and Greenville.

Cheaper would be Greenville, and they have great languages there.


----------



## Poimen (Jan 29, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Cheaper would be Greenville, and they have great languages there.



Judging by this incomplete sentence you _definitely_ need help with the English language. 

I chose Westminster however since it is my _alma mater_ and I believe I can say, without an inordinate amount of bias, that if you are pursuing a degree in historical theology you cannot go wrong with Clark, Godfrey & Horton. And if you don't believe me, just talk to the many alumni who went on to get their doctorates in that field.


----------



## caddy (Jan 29, 2007)

How does Calvin's Seminary rate in there?

http://www.calvinseminary.edu/


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

Poimen said:


> Judging by this incomplete sentence you _definitely_ need help with the English language.



Jackson, MS is affecting my language too much. This is ridiculous. I am from Illinois and I talk as a dumb southerner.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 29, 2007)

Westminster West where Horton and Godfrey are and the New Perspectives are not.

Westminster in Dallas although a satellite of Philadelphia has some outstanding profs in Sinclair Ferguson and John Hannah, the New Perspectives lies are being combated away at the door of the Dallas campus despite Philly.


----------



## CalvinandHodges (Jan 29, 2007)

*Joel Beeke*

Hay:

Heritage Reformed Theological Seminary seems well supplied with godly men.

Blessings,

-CH


----------



## Ezekiel3626 (Jan 29, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Jackson, MS is affecting my language too much. This is ridiculous. I am from Illinois and I talk as a dumb southerner.



I have not began the studies yet, I anticipate the arrival of my materials as early as next week, so I can not give a first hand referral based on experience, but I enrolled in the virtual campus of RTS based on research, and the recommendations of former students. Some of those students were traditional, attending RTS Jackson. As far as your observation Andrew, quoted above, perhaps your language was "affected" before you got down here. To be a "southerner" is not to equated with being "dumb". I can assure you that label and condition can be applied regardless of one's location.


----------



## ADKing (Jan 29, 2007)

As a graduate of Northwest Theological Seminary in Lynnwood, WA, I cannot speak highly enough about the school and especially about Professor James Dennison. His historical knowledge and ability to teach is unrivaled in my experience. It is definitely my top reccomendation. Second to NWTS, I would say that Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary (the real name of Beeke's school) is quite impressive.


----------



## ADKing (Jan 29, 2007)

caddy said:


> How does Calvin's Seminary rate in there?
> 
> http://www.calvinseminary.edu/



It is not conservative and there is a lot of unconfessional teaching there. Best to stay clear of it in my opinion.


----------



## Davidius (Jan 29, 2007)

Poimen said:


> Judging by this incomplete sentence you _definitely_ need help with the English language.



How was that an incomplete sentence? "Cheaper would be Greenville" has a subject and a predicate. Greenville, being the subject, just comes at the end instead of the beginning. Maybe my thinking has become too Germanized. 

I voted for WSC. That's where I hope to be  We can study together!


----------



## Davidius (Jan 29, 2007)

Regarding the "Master of Theological Studies" programs, is that the same as a ThM? If so, I think an MDiv is required to do those.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

Ezekiel3626 said:


> I have not began the studies yet, I anticipate the arrival of my materials as early as next week, so I can not give a first hand referral based on experience, but I enrolled in the virtual campus of RTS based on research, and the recommendations of former students. Some of those students were traditional, attending RTS Jackson. As far as your observation Andrew, quoted above, perhaps your language was "affected" before you got down here. To be a "southerner" is not to equated with being "dumb". I can assure you that label and condition can be applied regardless of one's location.



Saying dumb southerner did not mean that all southerners are dumb, I was specifically talking about DUMB one's (Southerners who are dumb). You could call them Rednecks, but then again, there are some of those who are smart too. My english which wasn't satisfactory to begin with has gone down to further mumblings.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Westminster West where Horton and Godfrey are and the New Perspectives are not.
> 
> Westminster in Dallas although a satellite of Philadelphia has some outstanding profs in Sinclair Ferguson and John Hannah, the New Perspectives lies are being combated away at the door of the Dallas campus despite Philly.



Ferguson is no longer there, he is a pastor in NC or SC, i forget now.


----------



## Davidius (Jan 29, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Ferguson is no longer there, he is a pastor in NC or SC, i forget now.



He's in Columbia, SC.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Regarding the "Master of Theological Studies" programs, is that the same as a ThM? If so, I think an MDiv is required to do those.



Master of Theological Studies is not ThM (Master of Theology).

The former is like a Master of Arts degree (comparable). To be able to do a ThM, you have to have a Masters degree of some sorts (like Masters of Theological Studies or MDiv). 

MDiv is not required for either. Just a Masters for ThM. Bachelors degree is required for MDiv and Master of Theological Studies.


----------



## fredtgreco (Jan 29, 2007)

Scott,

At the risk of being chastised by the seminary crowd, I believe you would be best served by doing something on your own - perhaps using the free lectures at Covenant's website. RTS also has the entire Systematic I course with Doug Kelly available as a download through iTunes. Greenville also has a good distance program. An MA at a seminary will be of almost no help to you in the academic world (e.g. as a prerequisite for some secular doctorate). The only real reason to go to seminary is for pastoral training (in my opinion). It is a very expensive and time consuming option simply to be "better studied." A better approach would be to find someone (your pastor, an elder or another minister) to go through Calvin's Institutes and Cunningham's Historical Theology with you. There are also tons of free audio lectures online - Van Til, Murray, etc. Sermonaudio is a great resource for this. If you needed it, I could burn a CD with a hundred or more MP3s of this sort and send it to you.


----------



## Davidius (Jan 29, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> Scott,
> 
> At the risk of being chastised by the seminary crowd, I believe you would be best served by doing something on your own - perhaps using the free lectures at Covenant's website. RTS also has the entire Systematic I course with Doug Kelly available as a download through iTunes. Greenville also has a good distance program. An MA at a seminary will be of almost no help to you in the academic world (e.g. as a prerequisite for some secular doctorate). The only real reason to go to seminary is for pastoral training (in my opinion). It is a very expensive and time consuming option simply to be "better studied." A better approach would be to find someone (your pastor, an elder or another minister) to go through Calvin's Institutes and Cunningham's Historical Theology with you. There are also tons of free audio lectures online - Van Til, Murray, etc. Sermonaudio is a great resource for this. If you needed it, I could burn a CD with a hundred or more MP3s of this sort and send it to you.



What about for someone like myself who is interested in a PhD in Church History or something along those lines? Do you think an MA at a Seminary is a bad choice to help reach that goal? I'm really interested in the MA in Historical Theology at WSC.


----------



## Davidius (Jan 29, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Master of Theological Studies is not ThM (Master of Theology).
> 
> The former is like a Master of Arts degree (comparable). To be able to do a ThM, you have to have a Masters degree of some sorts (like Masters of Theological Studies or MDiv).
> 
> MDiv is not required for either. Just a Masters for ThM. Bachelors degree is required for MDiv and Master of Theological Studies.



Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## VaughanRSmith (Jan 29, 2007)

I voted for Westminster, as, like David, I hope to study there too one day.

At the moment, I'm in Australia


----------



## Theoretical (Jan 29, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> What about for someone like myself who is interested in a PhD in Church History or something along those lines? Do you think an MA at a Seminary is a bad choice to help reach that goal? I'm really interested in the MA in Historical Theology at WSC.


 That's kind of also along the lines of what I'm interested in doing, at least as one possibility.


----------



## JOwen (Jan 29, 2007)

*Prts*

No PRTS in the list. Tisk tisk


----------



## Ezekiel3626 (Jan 29, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Saying dumb southerner did not mean that all southerners are dumb, I was specifically talking about DUMB one's (Southerners who are dumb). You could call them Rednecks, but then again, there are some of those who are smart too. My english which wasn't satisfactory to begin with has gone down to further mumblings.



I understand. Would you care to rate or comment on your experience at RTS thus far?  I would welcome any advice you might give.


----------



## KMK (Jan 29, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> Scott,
> 
> At the risk of being chastised by the seminary crowd, I believe you would be best served by doing something on your own - perhaps using the free lectures at Covenant's website. RTS also has the entire Systematic I course with Doug Kelly available as a download through iTunes. Greenville also has a good distance program. An MA at a seminary will be of almost no help to you in the academic world (e.g. as a prerequisite for some secular doctorate). The only real reason to go to seminary is for pastoral training (in my opinion). It is a very expensive and time consuming option simply to be "better studied." A better approach would be to find someone (your pastor, an elder or another minister) to go through Calvin's Institutes and Cunningham's Historical Theology with you. There are also tons of free audio lectures online - Van Til, Murray, etc. Sermonaudio is a great resource for this. If you needed it, I could burn a CD with a hundred or more MP3s of this sort and send it to you.



I agree with Pastor Greco. Through the internet there are so many resources available to continue to improve your mind if that is all you are interested in. 

However, the fact that you are not interested in Pastoring makes me wonder if the Lord is going to...hummm.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 29, 2007)

Ezekiel3626 said:


> I understand. Would you care to rate or comment on your experience at RTS thus far?  I would welcome any advice you might give.



My experience at RTS JACKSON has been great, but I am studying to become a Pastor. I wouldn't recommend to someone wanting to do an MA in Theological Studies to necessarily come here (I wouldn't not though either). I am also of the same opinion as Fred that seminary should typically be for those who want to enter pastoral ministry. I think RTS JACKSON is great for that purpose. If you want to do Theological Studies I would suggest those above that I suggested.


----------



## Theoretical (Jan 29, 2007)

KMK said:


> I agree with Pastor Greco. Through the internet there are so many resources available to continue to improve your mind if that is all you are interested in.
> 
> However, the fact that you are not interested in Pastoring makes me wonder if the Lord is going to...hummm.


I guess as a clarification, it isn't that I'm not interested in pastoring - it's that I regard myself as far too spiritually immature at this stage in my life to consider it. Basically, I know there is a huge responsiblity for anyone who teaches whatsoever in the church; indeed, how much more so for anyone who aspires to Preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. At this stage in my life, while I've strongly considered pastoral ministry, on the other hand I know that numerous personal disciplines and a sense of stability in the context of exercising sound leadership of my own family would greatly help me, and might indeed lead me to this calling.

More than anything, this is a maturity issue where I'm striving to grow rapidly, but where I'm worried about entering specific pastoral seminary training as not having sufficient strength to enter (especially because I'm still working to unload lots of past immaturity from my childhood and ill disciplehship for my years in Methodsim and a spiritually dead home).

Basically, how much maturity (besides a lot) is needed before going into seminary, and how much is developed in the pastoral training context of a seminary. I will admit that I would strongly consider pastoral ministry, but I know only a few are called to this high office.


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 30, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> I guess as a clarification, it isn't that I'm not interested in pastoring - it's that I regard myself as far too spiritually immature at this stage in my life to consider it. Basically, I know there is a huge responsiblity for anyone who teaches whatsoever in the church; indeed, how much more so for anyone who aspires to Preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. At this stage in my life, while I've strongly considered pastoral ministry, on the other hand I know that numerous personal disciplines and a sense of stability in the context of exercising sound leadership of my own family would greatly help me, and might indeed lead me to this calling.
> 
> More than anything, this is a maturity issue where I'm striving to grow rapidly, but where I'm worried about entering specific pastoral seminary training as not having sufficient strength to enter (especially because I'm still working to unload lots of past immaturity from my childhood and ill disciplehship for my years in Methodsim and a spiritually dead home).
> 
> Basically, how much maturity (besides a lot) is needed before going into seminary, and how much is developed in the pastoral training context of a seminary. I will admit that I would strongly consider pastoral ministry, but I know only a few are called to this high office.



I would say: 1) you need to determine if you think you are called to become a pastor (internal call) and 2) you need to go talk to your pastor and seek guidance/wisdom on this (Plans fail for lack of counsel).


----------



## elnwood (Feb 8, 2007)

If you plan to get a Ph.D., you'll want to stick to the accredited schools (either Westminster, RTS, RPTS and MARS). A non-accredited masters will likely prevent you from getting a Ph.D. from a good university and many seminaries.

Also, not all Master of Theological Studies or seminary M.A.s are pre-doctoral. Many of them are terminal degrees for lay persons.


----------



## Davidius (Feb 8, 2007)

elnwood said:


> If you plan to get a Ph.D., you'll want to stick to the accredited schools (either Westminster, RTS, RPTS and MARS). A non-accredited masters will likely prevent you from getting a Ph.D. from a good university and many seminaries.



Is it pretty difficult in general to get into a good PhD program with a master's from a seminary? I've heard that WSC has decent placement but I don't know anything about other Christian graduate schools.


----------



## elnwood (Feb 8, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Is it pretty difficult in general to get into a good PhD program with a master's from a seminary? I've heard that WSC has decent placement but I don't know anything about other Christian graduate schools.



I'm sure it depends on the seminary. One of my good friends got her M.A. in Church History from Gordon-Conwell and is now in a Ph.D. program at Notre Dame, which is one of the best in the country. But she's also really, really smart.


----------



## RamistThomist (Feb 8, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Jackson, MS is affecting my language too much. This is ridiculous. I am from Illinois and I talk as a dumb southerner.



Them sir, is fighting words!

I am now taking Frame for apologetics; if I could do it over again (I can't) and if I ahd the money (I don't), I would go Orlando.


----------



## RamistThomist (Feb 8, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> Scott,
> 
> At the risk of being chastised by the seminary crowd, I believe you would be best served by doing something on your own - perhaps using the free lectures at Covenant's website. RTS also has the entire Systematic I course with Doug Kelly available as a download through iTunes. Greenville also has a good distance program. An MA at a seminary will be of almost no help to you in the academic world (e.g. as a prerequisite for some secular doctorate). The only real reason to go to seminary is for pastoral training (in my opinion). It is a very expensive and time consuming option simply to be "better studied." A better approach would be to find someone (your pastor, an elder or another minister) to go through Calvin's Institutes and Cunningham's Historical Theology with you. There are also tons of free audio lectures online - Van Til, Murray, etc. Sermonaudio is a great resource for this. If you needed it, I could burn a CD with a hundred or more MP3s of this sort and send it to you.



Ditto to Fred. The only possible (no, that's not accurate) way a MA could work in the academic world is if you do a thesis, and even then it is slim (and usually it would only work overseas). The RTS Itunes deal looks good (Doug Kelley is an awesome theologian and preacher, no other way to say it). Me personally, I learned a tremendous amount from Greg Bahnsen's theology mp3s (and to meet the TR crowd on neutral ground, it was his exposition of the confession and his 80+ lectures on Calvin). That is just one example. They are cheap and you can listen to them whenever. Can't always do that with class notes. 

You could always do the presbyterian thing and that is to start your own study center. If the money ever came in, that is what I would do. I would call it "Kilt and Crown Tavern," or something like that.


----------



## fredtgreco (Feb 8, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Them sir, is fighting words!
> 
> I am now taking Frame for apologetics; if I could do it over again (I can't) and if I ahd the money (I don't), I would go Orlando.



Now that is really fighting words! I'd go to Southern before I set foot in Orlando. (Yes, I mean that).


----------



## RamistThomist (Feb 8, 2007)

I would go to Southern for money reasons. If I heard a certain academe correctly (and I could be mistaken), a year in the PhD program at SBTS is cheaper than a semester in the MDiv in Jackson.


----------



## fredtgreco (Feb 8, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> I would go to Southern for money reasons. If I heard a certain academe correctly (and I could be mistaken), a year in the PhD program at SBTS is cheaper than a semester in the MDiv in Jackson.




You likely heard right. PhD programs can be less expensive because you are typically not taking classes.


----------



## elnwood (Feb 9, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> I would go to Southern for money reasons. If I heard a certain academe correctly (and I could be mistaken), a year in the PhD program at SBTS is cheaper than a semester in the MDiv in Jackson.



Tuition per semester credit hour (masters):
SBTS: $158 (SBC students)
RTS: $325
WSCAL: $325
WTS: $360
RPTS: $226 (per quarter hour)
MARS: $200 (up to $2250)

Tuition (PhD):
SBTS: $2900 per semester (SBC students)
RTS: $380 per credit hour
WTS: $2350 per course


----------



## RamistThomist (Feb 9, 2007)

elnwood said:


> Tuition per semester credit hour (masters):
> SBTS: $158 (SBC students)
> RTS: $325
> WSCAL: $325
> ...



Needs to be qualified a bit. An RTS student theoretically can get 2/3 of it paid for per hour, but it gets tricky after that.


----------



## polemic_turtle (Feb 9, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> My experience at RTS JACKSON has been great, but I am studying to become a Pastor. I wouldn't recommend to someone wanting to do an MA in Theological Studies to necessarily come here (*I wouldn't not though either*). I am also of the same opinion as Fred that seminary should typically be for those who want to enter pastoral ministry. I think RTS JACKSON is great for that purpose. If you want to do Theological Studies I would suggest those above that I suggested.



I believe I am witnessing the meltdown occurring. :-|

P.S. Where is the Doug Kelly series link? Also, what's wrong with Orlando? Please explain.


----------



## RamistThomist (Feb 9, 2007)

polemic_turtle said:


> Also, what's wrong with Orlando? .



Nothing.


----------



## AdamM (Feb 9, 2007)

Freinds, fill me in more on what exactly is the purpose of the MA degree programs that most seminaries offer? I have to admit to being a bit puzzled by the programs myself, because from what little I've seen of them they are an awfully expensive way to increase ones personal bible knowledge. It seems to me, to me that purpose of a seminary is vocational (training teaching elders for the church) and increasing the role of MA programs would just introduce a bunch of potential problems. 

Another question I have is that I doubt the number of new PCA, OPC and URC church plants combined in year would equal more than 25 or 30, so where are the new MDiv graduates of all these seminaires finding calls?


----------



## crhoades (Feb 9, 2007)

polemic_turtle said:


> P.S. Where is the Doug Kelly series link?


http://itunes.rts.edu/


----------



## 3John2 (Feb 10, 2007)

Pastor Greco, I just sent you a private message.


----------



## Davidius (Feb 11, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> Scott,
> 
> At the risk of being chastised by the seminary crowd, I believe you would be best served by doing something on your own - perhaps using the free lectures at Covenant's website. RTS also has the entire Systematic I course with Doug Kelly available as a download through iTunes. Greenville also has a good distance program. An MA at a seminary will be of almost no help to you in the academic world (e.g. as a prerequisite for some secular doctorate). The only real reason to go to seminary is for pastoral training (in my opinion). It is a very expensive and time consuming option simply to be "better studied." A better approach would be to find someone (your pastor, an elder or another minister) to go through Calvin's Institutes and Cunningham's Historical Theology with you. There are also tons of free audio lectures online - Van Til, Murray, etc. Sermonaudio is a great resource for this. If you needed it, I could burn a CD with a hundred or more MP3s of this sort and send it to you.



I went to itunes.rts.edu to try to get Doug Kelly's lectures into itunes but can't figure it out.  I'm probably missing something easy but can someone help me out? When I got to that page I clicked on "launch itunes" thinking that it would load the podcast into my list but it didn't, and I don't see anywhere else to actually get the lectures. There's a log-in for students...but I'm not a student.


----------



## VictorBravo (Feb 11, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> I went to itunes.rts.edu to try to get Doug Kelly's lectures into itunes but can't figure it out.  I'm probably missing something easy but can someone help me out? When I got to that page I clicked on "launch itunes" thinking that it would load the podcast into my list but it didn't, and I don't see anywhere else to actually get the lectures. There's a log-in for students...but I'm not a student.



Hmm, it worked for me. Do you have iTunes already loaded? If not, that's what you need.

Vic


----------



## Davidius (Feb 11, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> Hmm, it worked for me. Do you have iTunes already loaded? If not, that's what you need.
> 
> Vic



I tried it again and it worked this time. *shrug* Thanks!


----------



## westminken (Mar 15, 2007)

Dr. Ferguson still is Professor of Systematics at WTS Dallas. He comes in and teaches intensive classes for three or four days about three times a semester.

Just thought I should let you know.


----------

