# UR



## JM (Feb 5, 2007)

I'm interested in arguments against universal reconciliation.

Thanks.

j


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## Ezekiel3626 (Feb 5, 2007)

Is "universal reconciliation" another term for "universal atonement/salvation"?


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## JM (Feb 5, 2007)

> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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> In Christian theology, universal reconciliation or universal salvation, is the doctrine or belief that all will eventually find salvation and reconciliation with God, going to heaven sometime after death, due to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
> 
> Also known as Trinitarian Universalism, not to be confused with Unitarian Universalism, this concept is often called universalism, itself a general term with a variety of other meanings, but which in this article will refer to universal salvation. Historically, by doctrine, most denominations of Christianity reject universalism, although many modern Christians believe in it. Some universalists believe that some will endure a limited period of punishment before going to heaven, such as a state of purgatory. Others believe in thnetopsychism, the view that the soul is mortal and actually dies with the body to be recalled to life at the resurrection at which point the person will be judged by God.



You got it.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 5, 2007)

Are you talking to people in the Emergent/ Relevant Church? This is their doctrine or undoctrine as they would prefer it to be.


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## Ezekiel3626 (Feb 5, 2007)

JM said:


> I'm interested in arguments against universal reconciliation.



In what way are you interested, sir? Where do you stand on the subject, in favor of or against?


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## JM (Feb 5, 2007)

I'm against it! I'm a "good" Calvinist.  

UR makes much of the Hebrew and Greek words behind hell, fire, eternal, etc. to say that hell is not eternal punishment and all will be saved by Christ's offer. I've never studied Hebrew or Greek so it can get confusing sorting through their posts. 

Romans 5:12 -21 (particularly v. 18-19) is a big text for UR believers as they see "all" fall in Adam, "all" will find justification. This is just one of many. 

Peace,

jason


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## Ezekiel3626 (Feb 6, 2007)

> Did the death of Jesus Christ secure the salvation of anyone? or did it merely make the salvation of everyone possible?
> 
> It is clear from many Bible passages that the Father punished Jesus Christ for the sins of His people. For example "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2Cor. 5:21). It can be said that Christ suffered and died in the stead of sinners. That being so, isn't it a strange idea that Christ should suffer for those who will also suffer for their own sins in hell? Will God, in fact, punish sin twice?
> 
> ...


 excerpt from the article(Was the Sin Question settled at the cross? By Mike Krall) 
I found this article to be helpful in some small way. Personally, when I was exposed to the doctrines of grace, I was reading The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner. His arguments in chapters 12 and 22 dealt with this issue. Last year I bought an old copy of The Death of Death by John Owen. I have been working my way slowly through this book, and it is DEEP, at least to me it is. I must admit that in my line of work I should be better at apologetics than I am, but I have not yet been able to formulate a "quick, efficient" strategy/system of logic and scripture references with which to combat a UR supporter. I hope Paul Manata reads this and will help us, or at least me, with this area. I have commited myself to more prayer  , and more study  . Concerning the passage in Romans 5, there must be a distinction between the many/all spoken of connected to Adam, and the many/all spoken of connected to the Lord Jesus Christ. I say "many/all" because the "all" in vv. 12 and 18 are the "many" in vv. 15 and 19. So also with the "all" of v. 18 are the "many" in vv. 15 and 19. Paul is talking of all connected with Adam and all connected with Christ. Some say that 1 Cor. 15:22 is a similar passage, even though the context there is the resurrection. The sense is still the same, for in 15:23, see that the "all" of v. 22 are those connected with Christ, "they that _are Christ's _at his coming." (emphasis mine) If universalists are to follow out their line of reasoning, who then is spoken of in 2 Thess. 1:9? Who is the Lord Jesus Christ contrasting in John 3:16, as well as 3:18-21,36 ? Just some thoughts.


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## JM (Feb 6, 2007)

Found these:

Universalism - 1 Elder James Poole
Universalism - 2 Elder James Poole


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 7, 2007)

Paul,

BOOYAH!


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