# Bizarre Logic On Total Depravity



## Theoretical (Jul 11, 2007)

> And how much worse and unbiblical can such esteem get if we start off with the "we're totally depraved" and God only chooses some people for salvation and not others? If we are totally depraved, then we blasphemously are saying that God is too. After all, the Scriptures say we are made in HIS Image and likeness. And they also don't mince words about such calling good, evil:
> _"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!"_ (Is. 5: 20-21)
> If God doesn't extend an invitation to EVERYONE to His Kingdom so that we can choose to respond to that in love, how are we not pawns or puppets who then cannot be responsible for sinning?
> Our view of ourselves should start from the fact that we are His children, baptized into Christ, whose lives were paid for with Blood. We are priceless to Him. Worth everything. All of us are, not just some whom God has chosen.



This response on a blog comment section about a post on self-esteem in response to an anti-Calvinist swipe from a previous commenter just blows my mind. 



How in the world does one come up with this logic that because we fell, God is now evil???????? I'm still amazed. Total Depravity=God is evil. Positively insane.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Jul 12, 2007)

What a fool.

People begin with a concept of God that He is just like us - He thinks like us, is surprised like us, and is generally about as smart as us.

In many ways, such a conception of God is an idolatry where God depends on us and is at our disposal to do our bidding. I think a loss of the very nature of Godhead is at the root of muddled thinking like the above and much idolatry in what passes for Christianity these days.


----------



## Blue Tick (Jul 12, 2007)

Utter madness!


----------



## Puritanhead (Jul 12, 2007)

It's ironic God loves all those people who He casts into hell isn't it?


----------



## panta dokimazete (Jul 12, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> This response on a blog comment section about a post on self-esteem in response to an anti-Calvinist swipe from a previous commenter just blows my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> How in the world does one come up with this logic that because we fell, God is now evil???????? I'm still amazed. Total Depravity=God is evil. Positively insane.



I have seen this over and over - its called anthropomorphism and it can only lead to illogic, since it's premise is flawed.


----------



## Theoretical (Jul 12, 2007)

Here was my response - critique?



> Mandi, if I look in a dirty mirror and my image is blurred, does it affect me at all? Why would God making creatures in His image that nonetheless were tainted by their father's rebellion be any different on His side of the equation?
> 
> 
> Since they are rebels against Him, he can do as He pleases with them, including temporarily permitting their continued existence to further advance His glory through Christ's redemption and the powerful Spirit-wrought demonstrations of His mercy in some of these beings.
> ...


----------



## govols (Jul 12, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> What a fool.
> 
> People begin with a concept of God that He is just like us - He thinks like us, is surprised like us, and is generally about as smart as us.



I was an enemy of God once. Then I became a fool and thankfully I became enlightened.


----------



## BobVigneault (Jul 12, 2007)

The response to election/predestination is almost always visceral. Come to think of it, emotion is the tool by which most people today attempt to apprehend truth.

I once touched on election/predestination in a bible study I was team teaching. A mom reacted very emotionally. She said, as her eyes teared up, that if her sons want to be saved she can't believe in a God who would not save them. She didn't give me any opportunity to explain the scriptures, she got up and walked out. As she was leaving she demanded her husband come as well and he dutifully obeyed - he was the other half of my team.

On another occasion I asked a lady if God loves people who are in hell. She, a Christian bookstore owner, replied "Yes! And he feels very sad that they are there." Again, logic is not a tool in these folk's apologetic. Our apologetic rests in logical sequence but we must remember that a good apologetic is not just consistent, it must be persuasive. We need to be ready to deal with the emotional response, we can't just say, "You're not logical!" and walk away. In other words, the best presuppositionalist is one who can sound like an evidentialist.


----------



## ~~Susita~~ (Jul 12, 2007)

I think you have the modern "church" to thank for that one, Scott. What with their watered down Gospel centered around the individuals' wants rather than on a Holy and Just God, I've come to expect such craziness.


----------



## shackleton (Jul 12, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> The response to election/predestination is almost always visceral. Come to think of it, emotion is the tool by which most people today attempt to apprehend truth.



Recently someone was telling of some _new_ teaching, (something that noone has come up with in over 2,000 years), and his basis for believing it was that when he heard it the hair on the back oh his neck stood up...So the evidince of truth is goose bumps...The church I used to be a part of thought that goose bumps were actually the Holy Ghost...


----------



## dalecosby (Aug 4, 2007)

At least open theism is consistent heresy.
Most modern Baptists are so mixed up between calvinism and arminianism that it makes no sense, but this is even worse!


----------



## Poimen (Aug 5, 2007)

From the original post:



> If God doesn't extend an invitation to EVERYONE to His Kingdom so that we can choose to respond to that in love, how are we not pawns or puppets who then cannot be responsible for sinning?



Acts 16:6-8 “Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, _they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia_. After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.”

Oops!


----------

