# Evidence for permanent H.S. indwelling of OT saints???



## jpechin (May 8, 2008)

Please read this as an honest learning experience. I understand the basics of systematic reformed theology as it pertains to this topic. I've been well on my way on the reformed path away from dispensationalism for some time now. Then I ran across John 7:37-39 and John 14:16-17, along with other snippets that describe a new experience within the indwelling of the H.S in the new covenant.

I'm not interested in creeds or confessions, here, unless they directly quote the scriptures. What I'm looking for is a direct exegesis of any scriptures that help me to understand whether OT saints were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

This online book seems to have a very biblical exegesis on the matter, but I'd like to see someone match or challenge it with scripture references...

The New Covenant Ministry of the ... - Google Book Search

(the Conclusion found on pages 26-31)

Thanks!


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## Contra_Mundum (May 9, 2008)

It seems to me that the promise of the indwelling Spirit was an attendant blessing of the New Covenant, esp. Joel 2 and Acts 2. Also Is 44:3, Zech 12:10, Eze 36:26f, among other places. And take Matt. 11:11 into consideration.

Only certain individuals in the OT were endowed in any similar fashion to the ordinary NT saints with Holy Spirit. They were endowed for their labors: prophets, Judges like Samson (Judges 15:14 & passim), David (Ps 51:11), etc.

But, the Spirit's *work* has always been necessary for _conversion_. So, he was certainly active in the OT. I liken the OT-NT difference to the difference between application by "eyedropper" and by "downpour". While I do think no elect person could _lose_ Holy Spirit, there doesn't seem to have been "as much of him" poured out for our benefit in the OT.

As far as the online book goes, while its preferred divines appear to be of the dispensational flavor, at least it dissents from the old line view of alternate salvation plans.


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## Barnpreacher (May 9, 2008)

One thing we know for sure, in spite of the lack of permanent indwelling for most under the Old Covenant, and that is the Holy Spirit did not cause OT Saints to keep the law for their justification and then change his mind and cause NT Saints to receive justification by faith.

Thank God!


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## Poimen (May 9, 2008)

Galatians 4:29 "But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, _even so it is now_"

Is there any indication that Isaac's spiritual birth was qualitatively different then ours? Not according to Paul's explanation above. (cf. Galatians 5:17) Furthermore this statement is dependent on Galatians 3 where Paul argues that Isaac's father Abraham is the forefather of our faith. 

Same birth, same faith.


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## jpechin (May 10, 2008)

Thanks to all for those references. Those scriptures are helpful in reaffirming God's eternal plan in his 'line of blood', the covenant of grace. However, though it has been through faith alone by grace alone that all elect have ever been saved, is it yet possible for the Holy Spirit to be with the OC elect in a non-indwelt nature, still regenerating the heart but not providing the full benefits of the permanent indwelling of the Spirit?

The enigma, for me, is that although God is sovereign and has saved all His elect by His designs only and that all were born only of the Spirit, I see a situation where the permanent indwelling of the Spirit is only made a reality in the New Covenant, from the scriptures alone. Up to that point, the Spirit 'comes upon', 'dwells among', 'enters into' (and out of), etc. I don't see anything that would indicate that the Spirit is permanently indwelt in the OC. This doesn't seem to deny the covenant of grace, just a different relationship between the H.S. and the elect. Certainly it reeks of New Covenantalism and even borders on dispensationalism, but can anyone help me understand why the covenant of grace might be destroyed by this thinking? 

Are we still missing an obvious scripture that would solve all of this for me? 

Thanks!


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## jpechin (May 10, 2008)

Poimen said:


> Galatians 4:29 "But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, _even so it is now_"
> 
> Is there any indication that Isaac's spiritual birth was qualitatively different then ours? Not according to Paul's explanation above. (cf. Galatians 5:17) Furthermore this statement is dependent on Galatians 3 where Paul argues that Isaac's father Abraham is the forefather of our faith.
> 
> Same birth, same faith.



This is possibly the strongest scripture that I've seen linking the nature of the spiritual relationship between the covenants, now that I examine this closer. 

Is it possible for an elect to have faith by the Spirit working from withall, rather than from within, in any of this? If I'm going to put this to rest, I'd like to make it iron-clad.

Thanks!


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