# Is it possible to preach without going to seminary?



## The Mexican Puritan

I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?


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## Ivan

So you've changed your mind about getting a M.Div. and being a pastor? That's what your profile says.


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## OPC'n

I don't think a person would need one since even women can be evangelists. Once the evangelist has seen that a person has accepted Christ, then it's the evangelist's duty to steer that person to a biblically based church.


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## Theognome

Giving the Gospel is not the same as leading worship. Let's not confuse evangelism with preaching in worship. To answer your OP question, I do believe that although seminary education is a great boon to leading worship and thus preaching to the people of God, it is not an absolute requirement.

Theognome


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## Edward

It's going to vary based on the denomination. In the PCA, Evangelist is an ordained position. For some additional information, click here:

PCA Book of Church Order: Chapters 20 - 23

particularly 21-11


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## willisadair

Ditto Theognome's post.

Not necessary but very helpful.


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## KMK

I think this must be a question for Presbyterians...


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## Ivan

Edward said:


> It's going to vary based on the denomination. In the PCA, Evangelist is an ordained position. For some additional information, click here:
> 
> PCA Book of Church Order: Chapters 20 - 23
> 
> particularly 21-11



Victor is OPC.


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## Oecolampadius

The Mexican Puritan said:


> I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?





TranZ4MR said:


> I don't think a person would need one since even women can be evangelists. Once the evangelist has seen that a person has accepted Christ, then it's the evangelist's duty to steer that person to a biblically based church.



Victor and Sarah,

I would like to call your attention to what our Form of Government says about Evangelists since both of you are OPC members like me.

Book of Church Order: Form of Government - Chapter VII: Evangelists



> 1. Jesus Christ, to whom is given all power in heaven and in earth, has commanded his church to make disciples of all the nations. From the throne of his glory he sent forth the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, to empower the witness of the church to the gospel. While it is the calling of every believer to confess Christ before men, and while God gives particular gifts and calling to some to minister the Word, and while every minister of the Word must evangelize in the fulfillment of his calling, there are some who are particularly called by Christ and his church as evangelists. Ordinarily such men shall preach the Word free of pastoral charge in a particular flock in order that they may labor to bring in other sheep. And to those sheep whom Christ has brought in, evangelists shall administer the sacraments until a congregation shall have been regularly organized. Since the gifts and functions of evangelists are necessary until the end of the age, this ministry is permanent and not confined to the apostolic period.
> 
> 2. The evangelist, in common with other ministers, is ordained to perform all the functions that belong to the sacred office of the minister. Yet distinctive to the function of the evangelist in his ministry of the gospel are the labors of (a) a missionary in a home or foreign mission field; (b) a stated supply or special preacher in churches to which he does not sustain a pastoral relation; (c) a chaplain in institutions or in military forces; (d) an administrator of an agency for preaching the gospel; and (e) an editor or similar ministry through the press and other means of communication. [emphases mine]



Update:
Since the Evangelist is said here to be one who is ordained into the sacred office of the minister, I do believe that whatever requirements that had been set by our denomination for one to be ordained would also be the same requirements that one aspiring for the office of the Evangelist must meet. If this is correct, then that would mean that Victor has to first pass the licentiate exam in order to become a licentiate and then take the ordination exam.


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## Ivan

Chippy said:


> The Mexican Puritan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a person would need one since even women can be evangelists. Once the evangelist has seen that a person has accepted Christ, then it's the evangelist's duty to steer that person to a biblically based church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Victor and Sarah,
> 
> I would like to call your attention to what our Form of Government says about Evangelists since both of you are OPC members like me.
> 
> Book of Church Order: Form of Government - Chapter VII: Evangelists
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Jesus Christ, to whom is given all power in heaven and in earth, has commanded his church to make disciples of all the nations. From the throne of his glory he sent forth the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, to empower the witness of the church to the gospel. While it is the calling of every believer to confess Christ before men, and while God gives particular gifts and calling to some to minister the Word, and while every minister of the Word must evangelize in the fulfillment of his calling, there are some who are particularly called by Christ and his church as evangelists. Ordinarily such men shall preach the Word free of pastoral charge in a particular flock in order that they may labor to bring in other sheep. And to those sheep whom Christ has brought in, evangelists shall administer the sacraments until a congregation shall have been regularly organized. Since the gifts and functions of evangelists are necessary until the end of the age, this ministry is permanent and not confined to the apostolic period.
> 
> 2. The evangelist, in common with other ministers, is ordained to perform all the functions that belong to the sacred office of the minister. Yet distinctive to the function of the evangelist in his ministry of the gospel are the labors of (a) a missionary in a home or foreign mission field; (b) a stated supply or special preacher in churches to which he does not sustain a pastoral relation; (c) a chaplain in institutions or in military forces; (d) an administrator of an agency for preaching the gospel; and (e) an editor or similar ministry through the press and other means of communication.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Does this mean a seminary M.Div. and ordination in the OPC?


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## OPC'n

Evangelist: a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, esp. by public preaching.
• a lay-person engaged in Christian missionary work.

If it is true that women are not evangelist in the OPC, then that means I don't ever have to share the Gospel with anyone ever again. Not sure that's what my pastor teaches. I have been taught that Christian woman cannot teach Christian men, but that Christian woman can teach unsaved men and woman the Gospel. I'll have to talk to my pastor about this. Is there another name for laymen who spread the Gospel then and that's what I'm think of?


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## Edward

Ivan said:


> Does this mean a seminary M.Div. and ordination in the OPC?



I can't speak for the OPC, but ordinarily in the PCA, the answer would be 'yes'. There are provisions for extraordinary ordination by a presbytery of a man that doesn't have an M.Div., but that should be a rare and unusual situation.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 01:16:01 EST-----



TranZ4MR said:


> Evangelist: a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, esp. by public preaching.
> • a lay-person engaged in Christian missionary work.



In some Presbyterian bodies, Evangalist refers to a particular calling for an ordained man. The Evangelist has additional powers since he is usually working toward planting a church in a dark area, with session (elected to that body or borrowed) available.


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## Oecolampadius

Ivan said:


> Does this mean a seminary M.Div. and ordination in the OPC?



I've been told by an OPC minister that it is not necessary for one to have an M. Div. in order to be ordained in the denomination. However, the exams are rigorous and the person who takes the exams would either have to be someone who has studied all the topics that are covered by the exam on his own (this would require lots of discipline) or had gone to a good seminary that taught him the things he must know in order to pass.

BTW, even if a man has gone to seminary and earned an M. Div., that is still no guarantee that that person will be ordained. I know of a person who, even though he had an M. Div., failed his first licentiate exam and was advised to take the Presuppositional Apologetics course with MTIOPC. This person, who is now an ordained minister in the OPC, told me that he did not learn Presuppositional Apologetics from the seminary he graduated from.


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## OPC'n

So, Chippy, what are laymen called who spread the Gospel if they are not evangelists? I have to admit I really don't know much about church gov. That's one thing I've never taken the time to study.


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## Oecolampadius

TranZ4MR said:


> Evangelist: a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, esp. by public preaching.
> • a lay-person engaged in Christian missionary work.
> 
> If it is true that women are not evangelist in the OPC, then that means I don't ever have to share the Gospel with anyone ever again. Not sure that's what my pastor teaches. I have been taught that Christian woman cannot teach Christian men, but that Christian woman can teach unsaved men and woman the Gospel. I'll have to talk to my pastor about this. Is there another name for laymen who spread the Gospel then and that's what I'm think of?



We have to make a distinction between the office of the Evangelist and the responsibility of every believer to evangelize. Just like the office of a Teaching or Ruling Elder, not everyone is called into it. 

The lay-person who happens to be doing his duty by confessing Christ to the people around him is not necessarily an Evangelist (one who holds office in Christ's church). We are all called to be ambassadors for Christ and to be doing our responsibility does not put us in the position of one bearing an office in the church.

And, the task of an Evangelist is no ordinary thing. Sometimes the task of the Evangelist is to go into an area in order to establish a base (formed by a group of believers) from which a church could be started. This would sometimes take years and once the base has been established, a pastor is called in to minister to the flock.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 01:57:09 EST-----



TranZ4MR said:


> So, Chippy, what are laymen called who spread the Gospel if they are not evangelists? I have to admit I really don't know much about church gov. That's one thing I've never taken the time to study.



Are we not all called to be ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20)? Are not all believers called the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13-16)? As our FoG affirms, *all believers* are called to confess Christ before men. To do so would simply mean that that lay-person is doing his duty in that area, that does not give him the privilege of being distinctly called an Evangelist (I am referring to the office here).

Laypersons sometimes help their deacons in doing their tasks. Sometimes the deacons would have to form committees or assign people to do certain tasks. Now, does that make these laypersons deacons as well? The answer is NO. Because the title of the deacon is only given to the one who bears that office and in the OPC, deacons are ordained into that office. I sometimes help clean and prepare our church for Sunday worship but that doesn't make me a deacon.

Our Book of Church Order can be viewed online. The OPC Form of Government can be studied in one sitting. I recommend that you study it. In fact, the reason why I am pointing this out to you is in order to demonstrate the importance of studying our denomination's Book of Church Order. It must not be neglected for it is part of our standards.

The OPC website says this:



> The constitution of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, subordinate to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, consists of its standards of doctrine, government, discipline, and worship, namely, its Confession of Faith, Larger and Shorter Catechisms, *Form of Government*, Book of Discipline, and Directory for the Public Worship of God.



P.S. Sarah, I do understand that my opinion doesn't count for much since I'm simply a lay-person. But, please, do read our Form of Government, it's all there. Even your own pastor would have to be consistent with our FoG in answering your questions.


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## Knoxienne

Some of the most stellar preaching and teaching I've ever heard is from men who never darkened the door of a seminary.


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## PresbyDane

I have both preached and tought and I do not have a degree


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## jogri17

I have no idea what the difference between Master of Divinity and the Master of Ministry is. To be quite honest I have never heard of the Master of Ministry. But in some Reformed circles the only real distinction between a preaching elder and an evangelist is that the evangelist is permitted and sent to go outside the physical jurisdiction of the regional synod and thus would be sent by one denomination/synod and put under watch by another. Many of us would see the work of pastor and evangelist one and the same and not as what the term has become since the Second Great Awakening (i.e. travelling preachers who hold revival meetings and can only preach 10 sermons over and over again). An Evangelist in my understanding of scripture is a pastor who has the additional burden of Church planting and doing missionary work. That's the role it was undertaken in my denomination (Église Réformée du Québec)


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## OPC'n

Chippy said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Evangelist: a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, esp. by public preaching.
> • a lay-person engaged in Christian missionary work.
> 
> If it is true that women are not evangelist in the OPC, then that means I don't ever have to share the Gospel with anyone ever again. Not sure that's what my pastor teaches. I have been taught that Christian woman cannot teach Christian men, but that Christian woman can teach unsaved men and woman the Gospel. I'll have to talk to my pastor about this. Is there another name for laymen who spread the Gospel then and that's what I'm think of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have to make a distinction between the office of the Evangelist and the responsibility of every believer to evangelize. Just like the office of a Teaching or Ruling Elder, not everyone is called into it.
> 
> The lay-person who happens to be doing his duty by confessing Christ to the people around him is not necessarily an Evangelist (one who holds office in Christ's church). We are all called to be ambassadors for Christ and to be doing our responsibility does not put us in the position of one bearing an office in the church.
> 
> And, the task of an Evangelist is no ordinary thing. Sometimes the task of the Evangelist is to go into an area in order to establish a base (formed by a group of believers) from which a church could be started. This would sometimes take years and once the base has been established, a pastor is called in to minister to the flock.
> 
> -----Added 5/31/2009 at 01:57:09 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Chippy, what are laymen called who spread the Gospel if they are not evangelists? I have to admit I really don't know much about church gov. That's one thing I've never taken the time to study.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are we not all called to be ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20)? Are not all believers called the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13-16)? As our FoG affirms, *all believers* are called to confess Christ before men. To do so would simply mean that that lay-person is doing his duty in that area, that does not give him the privilege of being distinctly called an Evangelist (I am referring to the office here).
> 
> Laypersons sometimes help their deacons in doing their tasks. Sometimes the deacons would have to form committees or assign people to do certain tasks. Now, does that make these laypersons deacons as well? The answer is NO. Because the title of the deacon is only given to the one who bears that office and in the OPC, deacons are ordained into that office. I sometimes help clean and prepare our church for Sunday worship but that doesn't make me a deacon.
> 
> Our Book of Church Order can be viewed online. The OPC Form of Government can be studied in one sitting. I recommend that you study it. In fact, the reason why I am pointing this out to you is in order to demonstrate the importance of studying our denomination's Book of Church Order. It must not be neglected for it is part of our standards.
> 
> The OPC website says this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The constitution of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, subordinate to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, consists of its standards of doctrine, government, discipline, and worship, namely, its Confession of Faith, Larger and Shorter Catechisms, *Form of Government*, Book of Discipline, and Directory for the Public Worship of God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> P.S. Sarah, I do understand that my opinion doesn't count for much since I'm simply a lay-person. But, please, do read our Form of Government, it's all there. Even your own pastor would have to be consistent with our FoG in answering your questions.
Click to expand...


Thanks, I will read it!


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## LawrenceU

The Scriptures do not require that a minister, pastor, evangelist, or preacher have a seminary education. They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord). The educational requirements of a particular denomination are different. Let's be sure and not confuse the two.


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## OPC'n

LawrenceU said:


> The Scriptures do not require that a minister, pastor, evangelist, or preacher have a seminary education. They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord). The educational requirements of a particular denomination are different. Let's be sure and not confuse the two.



So, Lawrence, are you saying that being called to be an evangelist is a position given to someone by God through the church and that the call isn't education? When you read the church gov of the OPC that Chippy quoted is that how you interpret it?


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## LawrenceU

Sister, with all respect the OPC documents are not Scripture. The OPC has chosen that particular method for its church leadership. If you are an OPC member then you would be bound to it by agreement. If you are not a member then it it has no bearing upon you at all.


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## OPC'n

Well, I am a member so I am bound to it. However, sometimes laymen don't read these documents with clarity and I was just wondering if you had a better grasp on what it meant. Thanks.


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## LawrenceU

I will agree with you on that. All too often church members ignore the governmental documents of their particular denomination or congregation. They really shouldn't. Frankly, they shouldn't become members without some understanding of what they are attaching themselves to by covenant. I'll take a closer look at the OPC BoC later on and get back to you. Right now I need to get off the PB and prepare.


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## toddpedlar

TranZ4MR said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Scriptures do not require that a minister, pastor, evangelist, or preacher have a seminary education. They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord). The educational requirements of a particular denomination are different. Let's be sure and not confuse the two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, Lawrence, are you saying that being called to be an evangelist is a position given to someone by God through the church and that the call isn't education? When you read the church gov of the OPC that Chippy quoted is that how you interpret it?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I see anything in the OPC FoG that equates "the call" to "education". In both the OPC and the PCA all would agree that an inward call to the ministry is God's to give and God's alone, and that those who are so called must be recognized as possessing the gifts of the office to which they are called, by the local church (and the regional body of presbyters, who ordain him). They must be, as the respective forms of government describe, knowledgeable in the Scriptures, of course - but neither body has explicit written rules that say that seminary education is required (though it's rare). 

I also want to note on the OP - If one is seeking "to preach only" then I'm not sure what office one is seeking. Evangelists as ordained in presbyterian bodies do NOT "preach only". I'm also honestly not sure what "to preach only" means, really. Some clarification there would help.


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## Pergamum

I think a split off thread needs to be started about the rigthness or wrongness of the OPC seeing "Evangelist" as a present and existing office.


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## toddpedlar

Pergamum said:


> I think a split off thread needs to be started about the rigthness or wrongness of the OPC seeing "Evangelist" as a present and existing office.



Then start one


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## KMK

The Mexican Puritan said:


> I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?



BTW, you need to fix your signature. Click on 'signature requirements' at the bottom of my signature.


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## The Author of my Faith

The Real Question I guess is not do you have an MDIV but can you preach? It does not matter what piece of paper you have hanging on the wall or what approval you might have from a seminary but are you called and gifted in the area of preaching? "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers..." Ephesians 4:11.

So many are in the pulpit due to the fact that they have the credentials but many do not have the gift or ability thus are not fruitful.

God does not require a Seminary degree, man does. Though I am also pursing a degree and am more for it than against it, but just look at the history of Christianity and you will see that God used both learned and unlearned men to turn the world upside down. Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul a learned Theologian. 

If God has called you and your peers and leaders have borne witness to that and you feel you do not need an MDiv then obey God and not man made church rules. But if you desire to preach in a denomination that requires an MDiv then you will probably have to acquire one.

That's my 2 cents


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## A.Hudson

The Author of my Faith said:


> The Real Question I guess is not do you have an MDIV but can you preach? It does not matter what piece of paper you have hanging on the wall or what approval you might have from a seminary but are you called and gifted in the area of preaching? "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers..." Ephesians 4:11.
> 
> So many are in the pulpit due to the fact that they have the credentials but many do not have the gift or ability thus are not fruitful.
> 
> God does not require a Seminary degree, man does. Though I am also pursing a degree and am more for it than against it, but just look at the history of Christianity and you will see that God used both learned and unlearned men to turn the world upside down. Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul a learned Theologian.
> 
> If God has called you and your peers and leaders have borne witness to that and you feel you do not need an MDiv then obey God and not man made church rules. But if you desire to preach in a denomination that requires an MDiv then you will probably have to acquire one.
> 
> That's my 2 cents


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## Edward

Ivan said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to vary based on the denomination. In the PCA, Evangelist is an ordained position. For some additional information, click here:
> 
> PCA Book of Church Order: Chapters 20 - 23
> 
> particularly 21-11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victor is OPC.
Click to expand...


Sorry for the delay in response. I missed this last night. 

Both are NAPARC, have similar standards, and a man seeking ordination in one might, at some point, end up in the other. 

This is particularly true of church planting, as the NAPARC members have a formal agreement to not step on each other's toes in church planting efforts.


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## ReformedChapin

I like seminary degrees. I think a good biblical education before one pastors a flock is extremely helpful. Not to mention I see a big difference in ministers comparing credentials. Who generally speaking will do better? A PhD or a MDiver? I am not trying to belittle people who have less credentials just stating the more the education the more helpful it is.


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## Michael Doyle

Pergamum said:


> I think a split off thread needs to be started about the rigthness or wrongness of the OPC seeing "Evangelist" as a present and existing office.



In response to this, I simply must assert Ephesians 4:11-15 as a text dealing specifically to Evangelist being an office in church ministry. I do not believe ecclesiastically you can separate the evangelist from the body. This does not give me any more credibility, however, I have been open air preaching and witnessing for the better part of 3 years and have finally come to believe myself to be in need of church oversight. I am called to witness for Christ but I must be accountable to the body.


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## NaphtaliPress

As for the biblical office of Evangelist, The Westminster Assembly's form of church government reads:*Of the Officers of the Church.*

THE officers which Christ hath appointed for the edification of his church, and the perfecting of the saints, are, some extraordinary, as apostles, evangelists, and prophets, which are ceased.​Others ordinary and perpetual, as pastors, teachers, and other church-governors,* and deacons. 
*they mean ruling elders.​See the full text at reformed.org

As far as the Divines' thinking, see Gillespie's study of the subject in his Miscellany Questions.
A treatise of miscellany questions ... - Google Book Search


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## Oecolampadius

LawrenceU said:


> The Scriptures do not require that a minister, pastor, evangelist, or preacher have a seminary education. They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord). The educational requirements of a particular denomination are different. Let's be sure and not confuse the two.





LawrenceU said:


> Sister, with all respect the OPC documents are not Scripture. The OPC has chosen that particular method for its church leadership. If you are an OPC member then you would be bound to it by agreement. If you are not a member then it it has no bearing upon you at all.



Lawrence you are right in saying that the OPC documents we are referring to here are not Scripture. But these OPC documents (secondary standards) are part of our denomination's constitution because we believe them to be faithfully representing that which is mandated by Scripture. In other words, the reason why church officers in the OPC are bound to these documents is not just because they have agreed to abide by them but because the body believes them to be representative of Scripture principles.

Another thing that I would like to point out to you is that the "particular method" that the OPC has chosen for its church leadership is the same as what you have said. You said, "They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord)." This is what the OPC FoG says concerning Evangelists:



> While it is the calling of every believer to confess Christ before men, and while God gives particular gifts and calling to some to minister the Word, and while every minister of the Word must evangelize in the fulfillment of his calling, there are some who are *particularly called by Christ* and his church as evangelists. [emphasis mine]



In addition, when it comes to educational requirements, I've been told that the OPC does ordain men who do not possess the degrees that one would usually expect of a man aspiring for ministry (the least is a Bachelor's degree) by way of exception.


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## DMcFadden

Educational requirements differ widely among Christian groups. In the last few decades, however, there has been a general tendency for official denominations to require the M.Div. of their candidates for ordination and pastoral ministry AND to permit exceptions for a variety of "exceptional" reasons.

I have been chair (for roughly half of my 28 years serving on the committee) on the standing ordination and credentials committee of my denom (first in the ABC and then of the successor body here in the southwest). Looking at nearly 500 candidates for ordination during that time, I am not so sure that one can draw much of a correlation between education and pastoral effectiveness. Those who select a namby-pamby seminary actually come out demonstrably worse for the experience and seemingly more incompetent than when they matriculated! I have seen effective leaders of ministries within a church become ineffective pastors _because_ of seminary.

Don't presume that more education leads to greater effectiveness. It simply denotes one who completed more years in school. At some point, a surplus of education may point to a person afraid of engaging the real world or with limited pastoral skills. Give me a pastor any day called of God, strong in the word, theologically astute, orthodox, and burning with zeal for the cause of Christ lacking a M.Div. rather than a PhD lacking in these former qualities.

In some of your denominations, you have a tradition of effective pastors entering the ranks of professors. What a blessing! May your tribe increase. They know both the world of the academy and that of the church. I am familiar with too many seminaries where the profs either never had significant pastoral experience or were never any good at it, hence their retreat to the academy. Obtaining a PhD under such educational leadership only makes one like the prof and basically useless for the church.

For aspiring PB future seminarians, INVESTIGATE the product of the school in terms of its alums. Do you want to be a professor or a pastor? If a pastor, does this school have a track record of producing effective ministers? For instance, leaving theology out of the equation, Dallas Seminary has a long tradition of preparing effective communicators who know the Bible (including the languages). If a dispensationalist wanted to become a philosophy prof, however, he would be better off at Biola (same theology but one of the VERY best pre-PhD philosophy programs in the country).

If I were 21-22 and a newly minted B.A. heading off to seminary, my short list of Presbyterian schools would include WTS, WSCal, GPTS, PRTS and probably Covenant or RTS. If I wanted a Baptist school, it would be pretty much limited to SBTS. My no-no list? ANY of the seminaries affiliated with a mainline denomination or ANY school trying to be PC, "diverse," "emergent," or calling itself "evangelical" without holding to inerrancy.

I would not argue that inerrancy is the most important Christian doctrine. However, in selecting a school, it is the virtual "canary in the mine" test of whether you can work safely in this environment. There are inerrancy-affirming schools that are not much good. However, don't go to ANY seminary for pastoral training that denies it (either functionally or practically). Like the canary (not the most important animal but a VERY good test of good/bad air in a mine), inerrancy is a petty good litmus test for whether the seminary operates in safe air or not. That, by the way, would exclude my alma mater from consideration for seminary!


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## Wannabee

Thank you Dennis. Very well put. 
One dear friend of mine advised me to find a seminary that would teach me how to think, rather than what to think. I am confident that I received such an education. But, if local pastors had the right vision, I could have received a similar education tempered more fully by faithfulness in the local church, thus been better prepared for ministry.
Unless tempered by practical ministry experience throughout, seminaries generally engender pride and can often ruin a man for ministry.


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## Oecolampadius

Wannabee said:


> One dear friend of mine advised me to find a seminary that would teach me how to think, rather than what to think.



That's the very same advice I would give to college students. My wife used to be an instructor at a University and she would often complain to me about how students often expect to be spoon fed. in my opinion, a lot of these kids probably went to public schools where they were taught what to think and not how to think.


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## DMcFadden

Chippy,

I'm good with "how to think" as long as the environment is not infected with studied pluralism. The typical cafeteria seminary offers any number of different ideologies, endorsing none, and so communicating that all ideas are equal in value. Hence, my inerrancy "canary in the mine" test. If you study under people who do not have some confessional boundaries, the noetic effects of the fall will lead their (and your) flesh to pernicious and dangerous doctrinal directions that will corrupt the church.

Inerrancy is such an offensive doctrine in the academy, that few hold it by mere tradition or out of accident of training. So, whether the inerrantist is a Dispensationalist (Masters, Talbot, Dallas), Arminian (Asbury), or Reformed (WTS, WSCal, PRTS, GPTS, Covenant), inerrancy will tend to be a self-limiting governor on on the degree of foolishness he can actively promulgate.

Brethren, I see seminary grads coming out that haven't a CLUE where the lines are with regard to truth. Granted, the Reformed schools I recommended in my earlier post would not be afflicted with this particular problem. However, because I attended a school that had just dropped its inerrancy stand a few years prior to my arrival, I can testify as an eyewitness to the corrupt and corrupting impact of this upon the corporate culture of the place. The current prez is a "Calvinist" with a M.Div. from Western Theological Seminary 17 years teaching at Calvin. But, YIKES!!!, the place will allow you to believe just about anything and prides itself on its broadmindedness:



> Fuller is welcoming both to the evangelical conservative and the theologically liberal. The faculty consists of a variety of Christian scholars with equally diverse backgrounds. Students and professors often hold diametrically opposing views and vehemently debate a wide range of religious and ethical issues, yet remain committed to their Christian camaraderie. Fuller's diverse student body and ecumenical persuasion are among its chief strengths.



Teach them to think, don't tell them what to think? Sure. But, don't teach them that truth is in the eye of the beholder and that good ideas and bad ideas are of the same intrinsic value! "Christian camaraderie" is not a strong enough central core. It is certainly not an adequate substitute for confessional boundaries.


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## Oecolampadius

DMcFadden said:


> Chippy,
> 
> I'm good with "how to think" as long as the environment is not infected with studied pluralism. The typical cafeteria seminary offers any number of different ideologies, endorsing none, and so communicating that all ideas are equal in value. Hence, my inerrancy "canary in the mine" test. If you study under people who do not have some confessional boundaries, the noetic effects of the fall will lead their (and your) flesh to pernicious and dangerous doctrinal directions that will corrupt the church.
> 
> Inerrancy is such an offensive doctrine in the academy, that few hold it by mere tradition or out of accident of training. So, whether the inerrantist is a Dispensationalist (Masters, Talbot, Dallas), Arminian (Asbury), or Reformed (WTS, WSCal, PRTS, GPTS), inerrancy will tend to be a self-limiting governor on on the degree of foolishness he can actively promulgate.
> 
> Brethren, I see seminary grads coming out that haven't a CLUE where the lines are with regard to truth. Granted, the Reformed schools I recommended in my earlier post would not be afflicted with this particular problem. However, because I attended a school that had just dropped its inerrancy stand a few years prior to my arrival, I can testify as an eyewitness to the corrupt and corrupting impact of this upon the corporate culture of the place. The current prez is a "Calvinist" with a M.Div. from Western Theological Seminary 17 years teaching at Calvin. But, YIKES!!!, the place will allow you to believe just about anything and prides itself on its broadmindedness:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuller is welcoming both to the evangelical conservative and the theologically liberal. The faculty consists of a variety of Christian scholars with equally diverse backgrounds. Students and professors often hold diametrically opposing views and vehemently debate a wide range of religious and ethical issues, yet remain committed to their Christian camaraderie. Fuller's diverse student body and ecumenical persuasion are among its chief strengths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teach them to think, don't tell them what to think? Sure. But, don't teach them that truth is in the eye of the beholder and that good ideas and bad ideas are of the same intrinsic value! "Christian camaraderie" is not a strong enough central core. It is certainly not an adequate substitute for confessional boundaries.
Click to expand...



Don't you worry too much about me. Lord willing, I will be going to PRTS (one of the seminaries you highly recommend) this Fall for my M. Div.

BTW, I'm a Presuppositionalist (Van Tillian) and what that means is that, for me, teaching students how to think would be to basically first teach them that true knowledge presupposes God.


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## Puritan Sailor

TranZ4MR said:


> Well, I am a member so I am bound to it. However, sometimes laymen don't read these documents with clarity and I was just wondering if you had a better grasp on what it meant. Thanks.



Actually Sarah, if I remember right, your own pastor was ordained as an evangelist. In the OPC, the evangelist is basically a church planter and is a type of teaching elder/minister. He has to work in the mission work without a local session. He doesn't get ordained as the pastor of that congregation until the congregation moves from the status of mission work to a regular congregation. I don't remember if your church has moved into that status yet or not. But your pastor could clarify some of these issues for you.


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## Damon Rambo

jogri17 said:


> I have no idea what the difference between Master of Divinity and the Master of Ministry is. To be quite honest I have never heard of the Master of Ministry.



The Master of Ministry degree, is for those called to full time ministry positions, OTHER than Pastor. It usually consists of 50 to 60 credit hours after your under grad, as opposed to the 85-95 of the M.Div.

New Orleans Baptist Seminary, Liberty Baptist Seminary, and I believe RTS, all offer Master of Ministry degrees.


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## Oecolampadius

Damon Rambo said:


> The Master of Ministry degree, is for those called to full time ministry positions, OTHER than Pastor.



What are full time ministry positions other than that of a pastor? Could you give some examples?


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## puritanpilgrim

yes.


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## OPC'n

Puritan Sailor said:


> TranZ4MR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am a member so I am bound to it. However, sometimes laymen don't read these documents with clarity and I was just wondering if you had a better grasp on what it meant. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Sarah, if I remember right, your own pastor was ordained as an evangelist. In the OPC, the evangelist is basically a church planter and is a type of teaching elder/minister. He has to work in the mission work without a local session. He doesn't get ordained as the pastor of that congregation until the congregation moves from the status of mission work to a regular congregation. I don't remember if your church has moved into that status yet or not. But your pastor could clarify some of these issues for you.
Click to expand...


Thanks, I do know that he is an ordained pastor of our little church. We are in the process of getting elders but we are still under our mother church in Hanover IL.


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## DMcFadden

In much of the evangelical world, a church will have 3-10 full time seminary trained staff. Unless a person sees himself heading for a pulpit ministry, the MAMin is often viewed as a more practical option than the M.Div. Full time associates working with youth, specialized ministries such as seniors, children, etc. are often seen as the types of roles for a MAMin rather than requiring the full M.Div. curriculum with Greek, Hebrew, and extra history and theology.

The logic (not expressing my agreement with it) is that requiring a children's pastor to complete two years of Greek and one year of Hebrew plus a full course in theology and church history is overkill for working with the "tykes and tots."

The other time the MAMin may be followed is when the undergraduate program was so full of Bible and theology that what seems needful are the "practical" courses in the seminary curriculum more than a repeat of what was already taken.

I know people who have 65+ undergraduate units in Bible, theology, hermeneutics, church history, NT, OT, etc. They do not always see a repetition of it at the seminary level to be good stewardship of time or money. For them, a two year seminary degree is often quite useful. One of my kids was better prepared for entry level ministry after college than I was after Fuller. He elected to go the direction of the MAMin (his program had theology, exegesis, and Bible as well as integrative courses in the practice of ministry). All in all, comparing him with the hundreds of MDiv grads I have examined, he stacks up pretty favorably and is completing his 10th year of full time ministry in the same church with a good deal of success and effectiveness. My older daughter also had 65+ undergraduate units in Bible and theology and completed a two year seminary program (where she took Greek and Hebrew but not homiletics). She teaches at a Christian high school so it is not exactly parallel.


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## Pergamum

toddpedlar said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a split off thread needs to be started about the rigthness or wrongness of the OPC seeing "Evangelist" as a present and existing office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then start one
Click to expand...


Give me a few days....I'm under a pile of tasks....prepare your answers and give me till tuesday.


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## Puritan Sailor

The Mexican Puritan said:


> I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?



To answer your opening post, the evangelist in the OPC (for example) is an ordained minister, so the requirements are the same as any other minister. In the modern evangelical world the evangelist is just a preacher, without any pastoral responsibility. In the OPC, the evangelist has a more specific purpose than that because he is called to a specific task by the presbytery. Read through the OPC Form of Government ch. 7 (it's on their website), it outlines specifically what an evangelist does. They are ordained ministers laboring to spread the gospel without being attached to a local congregation. Ministers who fit this category are home and foreign missionaries (church planters), chaplains, stated supply, etc. 

So if you wanted to be an evangelist then you must be called and sent by the presbytery for that purpose. But they would want a more specific description as to what exactly your calling is before they sent you. Preaching for what purpose? Missions? Chaplaincy? Pulpit Supply? 

The other route you could take, is to seek ordination in the local church as a ruling elder, and serve that local congregation in their outreach to the community, and preaching/exhorting in those opportunities. 

Hope that helps.


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## DMcFadden

Oops! Mea culpa, mea culpa. In my pontificating about schools I would consider on my short list if I were a 21 or 22 year old, Covenant and RTS were omitted by mistake. I do not know as much about Covenant as some of the other schools and did not mean to slander them by omission. And RTS has a wonderful history of doing kingdom work, especially in the Jacksonville campus. My list was not meant to be co-extensive with the range of orthodox options, merely were I would probably look with my own set of interests.


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