# Col 2:13 "having forgiven"



## Hilasmos (Jan 29, 2008)

I couldn't find anything in the search for this verse, and I have been thinking on Col 2:13 for some time - particularly in terms of the relation of the main verb "He made alive with" to the adverbial ptcp "having forgiven." My conclusion is that the ptcp is _causal_, hence, He made us alive with...[because] He has forgiven us. This would seem to indicate forgiveness as causally prior to the act of "making alive." If thats the case, how should we view this "making alive" in terms of being synonymous or not so synonymous with "regeneration." That is, if one maintains that regeneration has causal, or perhaps temporal, priority to the "forgiveness of sins," should this "making alive" in 2:13 (because He has forgiven us, causally prior), be viewed as something different? Or, is this suggesting forgiveness has causal priority to regeneration (not necessarily temporal)? 

Thoughts?


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## Grymir (Jan 29, 2008)

Thats a good question. Making alive is the same as regeneration. As to the causal/temporal relationship, in that passage, actually in the next verse, it talks about nailing them to His cross. So I would assume that the forgiveness of sins in that verse is temporally tied to the cross. But the sticky part is that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. But regenerated when we exist. This then turns into the order of salvation question (ordo Salutis). In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

I won't even mention the arminian (Heretical) camp. I hope this helps and not confuses you. God Bless P.s. the order is logical and not necessarily temporal


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## Hilasmos (Jan 29, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Thats a good question. Making alive is the same as regeneration. As to the causal/temporal relationship, in that passage, actually in the next verse, it talks about nailing them to His cross. So I would assume that the forgiveness of sins in that verse is temporally tied to the cross. But the sticky part is that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. But regenerated when we exist. This then turns into the order of salvation question (ordo Salutis). In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
> 
> I won't even mention the arminian (Heretical) camp. I hope this helps and not confuses you. God Bless P.s. the order is logical and not necessarily temporal



Right. I was aware of the Ordo.

For further clarification, however, it seems in this passage that being dead in sins is in relation to our guilt of sin, and thus to be "made alive" is caused by the forgiveness. It appears that our deadness or our non-deadness, in this passage, is related to how we stand as guilty or not guilty in terms of our "sins." Thus, if thats the case, "being alive" means not guilty of your sins. This, however, does not seem to be the normal understanding of being "born from above." That is, when one talks about regeneration it usually carries the connotation of receiving a "divine nature" new "desires," the "Spirit," and the like; however here, it appears that being dead or alive is contingent only on our relation judicially to our sins - which leads to my original question of why we should or should not view this as speaking directly to "regeneration" (with its theological nuances).


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## moral necessity (Jan 29, 2008)

Notice how many times the phrase "in him" exists in this section. As Paul is dealing with the influence of those who are trying to impress upon these Colossians the righteousness of works via ceremonies, festivals, new moons, sabbaths, etc..., and by such are being bound as with a halter, from which Christ has set them free, he reminds them of their unitedness to Christ and of the forgiveness and imputed righteousness that they were united to 2,000 years ago that sets them free from this garbage. Their reconciliation with Christ was a past tense event that occurred before they were born, as he was their head and representative.

So, Ch.2,vs.6 tells them to remain in Christ (walk in him), be rooted and built up in him. Vs.9, in him the whole fulness of deity dwells. Vs.10, you have already been filled in him. Vs. 11-12, in him you have the covenant sign that you are his; you were buried with him in baptism, raised with him. And, vs.13, God made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all of our trespasses.

I don't think he's talking about regeneration here, as much as he's talking about them being united to Christ in his death and ressurection and of being made alive when Christ was made alive. As Christ is the head and representative of all of his people, when he was quickened, they were quickened with him. When he rose from the dead, they rose with him. This "having forgiven you all trespasses" was a past act, as it was done and over when Christ died. When our sins were imputed to Christ 2,000 years ago, and he shed his blood for them, forgiveness of sins was done and complete. This cancelling of their record in vs.14 happened at that time, as well as the disarming of the rulers in vs.15. Therefore, vs.16, he gets to his point, to "let no one pass judgment on you in regard to these forms of works righteousness. Your righteousness and forgiveness is already a settled issue, as it flows from you being united to a historical event that occurred before you were born. Vs.20, again, "if with Christ you died" (2,000 years ago); and Ch.3, vs.1, "if you have been raised with Christ (2,000 years ago when Christ was raised). 

He seems to be speaking the entire time of us being united to Christ in his actions of death and resurrection. He being our head represented us during that time. God united us with Christ, so that when he rose, we rose to life; and that seems to me to be what he's referring to in Ch.2, vs.13 and in most of the surrounding letter. I don't think he's speaking at all about our space/time experience of it, in which we were born again and actually were regenerated to life. 

Much of this thought came from Gill's commentary on the verse. You can find his comentaries on this website: John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

Blessings!


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## Hilasmos (Jan 29, 2008)

Charles,

Thanks for the comments. This is exactly what I was inquiring into. It didn't seem to fit with "regeneration," as we use it at times. Another interesting aspect, however, is that I have heard countless times Eph. 2:5 being used as a "regeneration" text. The wording is virtually identical to Col 2:13 (except "having forgiven" is supplanted with "by grace you have been saved"), and thus does that mean Eph. 2:5 isn't talking about our "regeneration" as well? That seems to get a little more sticky as Paul was talking about our former "nature" and our bondage to sinful desires (v.1-3), and the way in which we were saved from this was "being made alive with Christ." 

I will go read Gill on Eph. 2 and see what he thinks.

Blessings


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## moral necessity (Jan 30, 2008)

Hilasmos said:


> Charles,
> 
> Thanks for the comments. This is exactly what I was inquiring into. It didn't seem to fit with "regeneration," as we use it at times. Another interesting aspect, however, is that I have heard countless times Eph. 2:5 being used as a "regeneration" text. The wording is virtually identical to Col 2:13 (except "having forgiven" is supplanted with "by grace you have been saved"), and thus does that mean Eph. 2:5 isn't talking about our "regeneration" as well? That seems to get a little more sticky as Paul was talking about our former "nature" and our bondage to sinful desires (v.1-3), and the way in which we were saved from this was "being made alive with Christ."
> 
> ...



Will,

I would tend to view Eph. 2:5 in the same light as Col. 2:13, for he's talking about being made alive with Christ, and being raised up and seated with him. I don't think it's really any more sticky, for Eph. 2:1 is in essence the very same statemtent as Col. 2:13a. Eph. 2:2-3 just elaborates more on that introductory sentence than Colossians does.

Blessings!


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## Hilasmos (Jan 30, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> Hilasmos said:
> 
> 
> > Charles,
> ...



So your contending that the "being made alive" in Eph 2 does not mean being made alive out of v.2-3 in time? I am having difficulty with this because it appears that Paul was contending that they were "dead" while they were walking in the flesh, which could have been after Christ already died and rose (which means they would have already been made alive with Him). Not sure if that is clear or not, probably not.


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## Iconoclast (Jan 31, 2008)

While Christ accomplished Redemption at the cross ;


> 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


 once for all time;


> 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
> 
> 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
> 
> ...



We are not "quickened ", or saved , until we are saved in time.
The Spirit must put it to our account.
The passage in col 2 comes after col 1



> 1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
> 
> 2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> ...


 Given to the Son before the world was 2tim1:9, Jn 6:37-44 , Redeemed at the cross/ but quickened "in time". Are you saying this is not so? or are you saying that Gill did not believe this?


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