# Need your help.



## ladodgers6 (Dec 25, 2011)

I am debating with a Arminian on what precedes first,regeneration or faith.Now the passages He is using is found in John 7:37-39 and verse 39 being His corner stone.Which states,"By this he meant the Spirit,whom those who believed in him *were later to receive.Up to that time the Spirit had not been given*,since Jesus had not yet been gloried."

The Arminian is pointing out that they believed without the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first to believe.

I need help here.

Thanks


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## Andres (Dec 25, 2011)

Ask him how dead men are supposed to repent and believe.


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## ladodgers6 (Dec 25, 2011)

Well as we know they believe in prevenient grace.Arminians don't believe that sinners are dead or alive but a half way in between.And thats not Biblical teaching.He and I discussed this that sinners are dead in sin and trespasses (Ehp 2).Although sinners have a free-will,sinners choose sin and darkness rather than the light.Sinners choose their evil deeds not by a external force or compulsion,but from within the heart and mind.Sinners have a necessity to serve sin willingly.Because they LOVE THE DARKNESS and HATE THE LIGHT (John 3).I have supported this premise Scriptural support,but again he avoids these and wants me to answer these passages in John 7:37-39.I could be wrong but I think Jesus is referring to the baptimal of the Holy Spirit when Christ accomplishes His ministry on earth and goes to heaven at the right hand of the Father.I say this because John the bapist proclaims that He baptizes with water,but Jesus comes baptizing with Fire and the Holy Spirit.I could off track here.But need some guidance to these passages.I don't want this Arminian to think I am avoiding them.


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## FCC (Dec 25, 2011)

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65 I would refer back to these verses in the previous chapter of John and then move on to John 7. John Gill writes some on this occasion, especially setting it into its historical perspective. The Jews were celebrating a feast that set forth the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and thus Christ moves into speaking about the Spirit. Gill writes, "Which they that believe on him should receive; the apostles, and others, that had believed in Christ, and had received the Spirit, as a spirit of regneration and sanctification; as a spirit of illumination and conversion; as a spirit of faith and adoption; but on the day of Pentecost they were to receive a larger, even an extraodrinary measure of his gifts and grace, to qualify them for greater work and service:" Gill obvious believed and taught that the Spirit had indeed performed the work of regeneration in the apostles, however He was looking forward to Pentecost here in John 7, when the Holy Spirit would be poured out in open power and might! 

Matthew Henry: "The Holy Ghost was not yet given in that visible manner that was intended, if we compare the clear knowledge and strong grace of the disciples of Christ themselves, after the day of Pentecost, with their darkness and weakness before, we shall understand in what sense the Holy Ghost was not yet given; the earnests and first-fruits of the Spirit were given, but the full harvest was not yet come. That which is most properly called the dispensation of the Spirti did not yet commence."

I hope this helps some!


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## rbcbob (Dec 25, 2011)

ladodgers6 said:


> I am debating with a Arminian on what precedes first,regeneration or faith.Now the passages He is using is found in John 7:37-39 and verse 39 being His corner stone.Which states,"By this he meant the Spirit,whom those who believed in him were later to receive.Up to that time the Spirit had not been given,since Jesus had not yet been gloried."
> 
> The Arminian is pointing out that they believed without the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first to believe.



The context of the passage cited is the transition between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The giving of the Spirit alludes to the day of Pentecost and the inauguration of the Church. Jesus is standing at the close of the Old and pointing His hearers to the New. Those who would believe would become partakers of the New. Jesus had yet to suffer, die, be buried, rise and be glorified. Those who were that day bidden to believe were not being told that they could do so of their own power, but that if they were believing on Him they would have the blessings of entrance into the Church at its inauguration.


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## Marrow Man (Dec 25, 2011)

John also uses the word "believed" in chapter 8 to refer to those who are still slaves to sin: "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

He later calls them children of the devil and says that they cannot hear His voice. We must always make sure we see what the context is teaching us in a passage, not what we think words mean and then import them in with full baggage of theology. But I think Bob has hit upon the meaning in his post above.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Dec 25, 2011)

Here is an excellent quote from A.W. Pink, plus a list of verses promoting the inability of unbelievers to come to Christ on their own.

“Man is impotent as to his will. He has no will inclined favorably towards God. I believe in free will; but then it is a will only free to act according to nature. A dove has no will to eat a dead carcass of an animal; nor will a raven eat the clean food of a dove. Why? Because their wills are not “free” to do so? Not in the sense that they are being “forced”. Put the nature of the dove into the raven and it will eat the food of the dove. And in the same way, Satan could have no will for anything but evil. And the sinner (in his sinful unregenerate nature) (and who Scripture describes as a “child of the devil”) could never have a will according to God. For this he must be born-again.” -A.W. Pink


“*The wicked*, through the pride of his countenance, *will not seek after God*: 
God is not in all his thoughts.” 
- Psalm 10:4 -

“Yet *the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear*, unto this day.” 
- Deuteronomy 29:4 -

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
*But the natural man receiveth not 
the things of the Spirit of God: 
for they are foolishness unto him: 
neither can he know them*, 
because they are spiritually discerned.”
- 1 Corinthians 2:13,14 -

“But *if our gospel be hid,
it is hid to them that are lost*:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
- 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 -

“For *the preaching of the cross is
to them that perish foolishness*; 
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
- 1 Corinthians 1:18 -

“*None that go unto her (Satan) return again,
neither take they hold of the paths of life*.”
- Proverb 2:19 -

“Know ye not, that
*to whom ye yield yourselves slaves to obey,
his slaves ye are to whom ye obey*; 
whether of sin unto death, 
or of obedience unto righteousness?” 
- Romans 6:16 -


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## rbcbob (Dec 25, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> We must always make sure we see what the context is teaching us in a passage, not what we think words mean and then import them in with full baggage of theology



An important, yet elusive goal!


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## Scott1 (Dec 25, 2011)

> John 7:37-39
> 
> 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
> 
> ...



As has been stated, the immediate context is the Holy Spirit coming explicitly on the Day of Pentecost, where He would be expressly poured out upon all men (Jew and Gentile). 

It has nothing to do with the priority order of salvation.



ladodgers6 said:


> The Arminian is pointing out that they believed without the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first to believe.



In addition to the immediate context of the Scripture cited not supporting his assertion, Scripture explicitly (and implicitly) contradicts the assertion at many points.

E.g.



> John 16:7-9
> 
> 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
> 
> ...


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