# Question regarding the practices of the Puritans



## steven-nemes (Mar 25, 2009)

An English teacher today, while we were studying the policies of the Taliban regarding public life and their treatment of women, made the comment that the Puritans were also not so good of people either.

Did the Puritans:

1. Forbid dance?
2. Forbid drink?
3. Forbid music?
4. Mistreat natives?


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## Prufrock (Mar 25, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> 2. Forbid drink?



Certainly not.


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## steven-nemes (Mar 25, 2009)

I figured as much. 

It seems my teacher makes a note to also name bad examples of Christians when the class discusses bad examples of behavior from other religious groups... For example, today she noted that there are also groups of Christians who disallow dancing and such, just as the Taliban does...


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## Claudiu (Mar 25, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> steven-nemes said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Forbid drink?
> ...



Surprisingly there was a beer episode on the History Channel, and it showed how some of the puritans were actually brewing their own beer at one point.
Here's something I found as well:
Puritans To Prohibition

1. The Puritans loaded more beer than water onto the Mayflower before they cast off for the New World. 
2. While there wasn't any cranberry sauce, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, or pumpkin pie to eat at the first Thanksgiving, there was beer, brandy, gin, and wine to drink. 
3. A brewery was one of Harvard College's first construction projects so that a steady supply of beer could be served in the student dining halls. 
4. The early colonialists made alcohol beverages from, among other things, carrots, tomatoes, onions, beets, celery, squash, corn silk, dandelions, and goldenrod. 
5. The manufacture of rum became early Colonial New England's largest and most prosperous industry. 
6. Tavern owners enjoyed higher social status than did the clergy during part of the Colonial period. 
7. A traveler through the Delaware Valley in 1753 compiled a list of the drinks he encountered; all but three of the 48 contained alcohol. 
8. The first Kentucky whiskey was made in 1789 by a Baptist minister. 
9. The distillation of whiskey led to the first test of federal power, the Whiskey Rebellion (1794). 
10. During the Colonial period, alcohol abstainers had to pay one life insurance company rates 10% higher than that of drinkers. Of course, today we know that abstainers tend not to live as long as moderate drinkers. 
11. The laws of most American colonies required towns to license suitable persons to sell wine and spirits and failure to do so could result in a fine. 
12. Colonial taverns were often required to be located near the church or meetinghouse. 
13. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson all enjoyed brewing or distilling their own alcohol beverages. 
14. The Colonial Army supplied its troops with a daily ration of four ounces of either rum or whiskey. 
15. Abraham Lincoln held a liquor license and operated several taverns. 
16. Religious services and court sessions were often held in the major tavern of Colonial American towns. 
17. In the 1830's the average American aged 15 or older consumed over seven gallons of absolute alcohol (resulting from an average of 9 1/2 gallons of spirits, 1/2 gallon of wine, and 27 gallons of beer), a quantity about three times the current rate. 
18. Thomas Jefferson wrote the first draft of the Declaration of Independence in a tavern in Philadelphia. 
19. Every signer of the American Declaration of Independence drank alcoholic beverages. 
20. The first signer of the Declaration of Independence, John Hancock, was an alcohol dealer. 
21. Before he took his famous ride, Paul Revere is reported to have had two drinks of rum. 
22. The patriot Patrick Henry (“Give me liberty or give me death”) was a bar tender. 
23. President Martin Van Buren was born in his father’s tavern. 
24. Alewives in Colonial America brewed a special high proof "groaning ale" for pregnant women to drink during labor. 
25. "Root beer" was a temperance product developed in the hope that it would replace beer in popularity.......it did not.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 25, 2009)

Ask the teacher for examples. 


steven-nemes said:


> An English teacher today, while we were studying the policies of the Taliban regarding public life and their treatment of women, made the comment that the Puritans were also not so good of people either.
> 
> Did the Puritans:
> 
> ...


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## Michael Doyle (Mar 25, 2009)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Ask the teacher for examples.
> 
> 
> steven-nemes said:
> ...



Great point Chris


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## Prufrock (Mar 25, 2009)

Did they dance? Yes; but not men and women together. (And there were often deep societal reservations about dancing at all)

Did they take a drink? Most certainly.

Did they enjoy music? Yes; in fact, a few notable theologians were accomplished musicians. 

You might enjoy the book _Puritans at Play_, by Bruce C. Daniels. The book has been recommended on the PB before; I found it on ebay or Amazon for $1. It deals with recreation among New England puritans, and provides information on each of these topics.


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## steven-nemes (Mar 25, 2009)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Ask the teacher for examples.



 I objected to her, but I said, "I wouldn't know if those things you say are true, I will assume they are, but I will say the Puritans can hardly be compared to the Taliban..."

The Puritans weren't terrorists; they didn't kill women for showing their ankles in public; etc.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 25, 2009)

And like all cultural confrontations: there were some NA's and some Puritans that got along...there were also those that didn't. It all depended upon the person, the time, and the circumstances. It was neither all one hating on the other or all getting along. Offenses happened both ways. Peaceful times also happened.


Taliban, my wide native foot! You have some liberal teacher that just wants to make her (inaccurate) point.


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## steven-nemes (Mar 25, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> And like all cultural confrontations: there were some NA's and some Puritans that got along...there were also those that didn't. It all depended upon the person, the time, and the circumstances. It was neither all one hating on the other or all getting along. Offenses happened both ways. Peaceful times also happened.



And that is true with any people that ever lived anywhere...


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 25, 2009)

Precisely. She's setting up strawmen.


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## ZackF (Mar 25, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> An English teacher today, while we were studying the policies of the Taliban regarding public life and their treatment of women, made the comment that the Puritans were also not so good of people either.
> 
> Did the Puritans:
> 
> ...



She is probably getting her bad impression of Puritanism via Hawthorne if the English teacher bit is any clue.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 25, 2009)

> 4. Mistreat natives?



Not in general (I'm sure there were cases, though). I do know that natives were attending Harvard within a decade of its inception, so there's a clue as to how they felt about them in general.

Also, the 'Pilgrims' I believe actually sentenced an englishman to death for killing a native.

Some may say that they took advantage of and thereby mistreated the natives, but let's remember that a number of tribes wanted the Pilgrims at their friends because of their impressive firepower.


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## Theoretical (Mar 26, 2009)

Also, don't be surprised if the teacher is imposing the substantial errors of the Victorians on the Puritans.

Victorianism, especially in its attitudes towards drink, play, and sex, was far closer to the modern perception of Puritanism than Puritanism actually was, from what I can tell.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 26, 2009)

Your teacher is an equivocating, evil-minimizing buffoon. Tell him I said that, please.
First of all, the Taliban doesn't forbid these things, per se... just American/Western notions of these things. For example, they don't prohibit music... they just prohibit Western music. That kind of thing. When I was in Afghanistan we had an incident in which some Taliban had set up a road block and they were checking cars for "Western music cassettes"... anyone found in possession was given a severe beating. 

But secondly, the Taliban is not bad because they forbid these trivial things. Good grief. They're vile because they operate on mob justice, raping (yes), murdering (yes), and selling into slavery (yep) the women and children of the tribal groups who won't support them. They beat - or kill - all who disagree with even minor points of their interpretation of how things should be. They vigorously support the annihilation of all cultures that will not conform to Sharia.

Oh yes, they're vile. But not because they "forbid dancing." 

That's the kind of blithering nonsense that the relativists throw out there to try to say, "See, they're no worse than people from our own side... particularly whenever religion is involved... see religion is the problem."

Nonsense.


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## charliejunfan (Mar 26, 2009)

Of course on the Lords day Puritans would never dance and so on, but any other day they would take advantage of the liberty found in Christ.

I once corrected my sociologist teacher when she made the claim that Calvinists are just those people who believe that God choses people to make alot of money while on earth.


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## Theoretical (Mar 26, 2009)

My political science professor was pretty shocked when a fellow prof described that one of his students at another university was a Calvinist. He said he didn't realize any still existed. I said that I was also one, in the full Westminsterian mode, which really piqued his interest.


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## Scott1 (Mar 26, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> An English teacher today, while we were studying the policies of the Taliban regarding public life and their treatment of women, made the comment that the Puritans were also not so good of people either.
> 
> It would be interesting to know what your teacher is basing that on. What would they describe as "good" to people. I would challenge the teacher to be more specific when making a categorical statement about a whole group like that.
> 
> ...


You also might point out (and do this respectfully) that the Taliban's regard for other people is very conditional, sometimes violently so.

The Puritans', on the other hand, is based on Loving God and their neighbor as themselves.


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## Rangerus (Mar 26, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Your teacher is an equivocating, evil-minimizing buffoon. Tell him I said that, please.
> First of all, the Taliban doesn't forbid these things, per se... just American/Western notions of these things. For example, they don't prohibit music... they just prohibit Western music. That kind of thing. When I was in Afghanistan we had an incident in which some Taliban had set up a road block and they were checking cars for "Western music cassettes"... anyone found in possession was given a severe beating.
> 
> But secondly, the Taliban is not bad because they forbid these trivial things. Good grief. They're vile because they operate on mob justice, raping (yes), murdering (yes), and selling into slavery (yep) the women and children of the tribal groups who won't support them. They beat - or kill - all who disagree with even minor points of their interpretation of how things should be. They vigorously support the annihilation of all cultures that will not conform to Sharia.
> ...



This as well as a


> "They're vile because they operate on mob justice, raping (yes), murdering (yes), and selling into slavery (yep) the women and children of the tribal groups who won't support them. They beat - or kill - all who disagree with even minor points of their interpretation of how things should be. They vigorously support the annihilation of all cultures that will not conform to Sharia."



"The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly," (John 10:10). 

The God of Christianity performs the greatest act of love by dying for those whom he saves.


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