# I got an unordained man planting churches - what do I do?



## Pergamum (Sep 17, 2008)

Dear Abby;


A national co-worker of mine feels called by God as an evangelist. He is uneducated, but feels that he is an evangelist, and his peers agree. He has 20 years of fruit and acceptance by most of the regions' local Christians to back him up. 

His present church - which he started - supports him and now he is striking out and working on other church plants. He is uneducated, unordained, but leads a team of people who have -humanly speaking - been the instrument by which over 30 former Religion of Peace-ers have come to the Lord.

He is called the "manager" and runs businesses to get into areas where, otherwise, he would be rejected. His lack of theological training makes people un-suspicious of him.

His group do not have legal permission to gather and once a group gets too big to escape notice he looks for a nearby legal church to adopt them into and thus the group becomes a branch of the legal church - to avoid persecution.

In total there are 3 churches being planted and several prayer groups that are gaining followers. Some are led by women evangelists because we keep trying to recruit male pastors but these keep backing away at the first threat of mob action.

During some of the times of teaching (done on a mat on the floor in the garage or homes that serve as churches) the believers take communion together. This communion does not seem to be administered by any one person but passed around by all the team members to the new beleivers (congregants). New believers often undergo a lag time before being baptized (often due to fear and often due to logistics...the secret place to baptize them in the mountains is 3 hours drive away). And sometimes they take communion after they profess faith but before they are baptized.

Sometimes they do not even meet at the same place, but change locations to worship ("how about your house next Sunday?")

There is also significant lay-person involvement and some churches almost seem to "spontanously generate" due to the Word of God spreading throughout isolated areas totally dominated by the Religion of Peace. Some even seek after Christians due to dreams of the Prophet Isa coming to them, and others seek out Jesus after even reading Surat 3 and reflecting upon it.

These believers are often from poorer classes, but they seem to have a solid understanding of the basics.

This unordained man and two female evangelists work together and do not call themselves a church but a church-planting team, called by God to plant other churches. There are several ordained pastors that help as well, but they seem to lack the boldness that these three main members exercise. During baptisms, the team invites an ordained pastor to assist and do the baptizing.


This all seems to "un-reformed" - what do I do? 
Do I halt the progress I see and convince them to do things right? 
How right do they need to be before I vigorously support them? 
How wrong do their doctrines and practices need to be before I warn them and break company with them? 
What is a strategy for improvment on these efforts? How do I make these efforts more Reformed?
As a friend and advisor, how much should I push them and.or tolerate things not to my liking. After all, I am a foreigner -how much should I try to make their decisions for them? Besides advice, how much should I push to improve their efforts? How much of my role is assistance and how much of if is to take charge?
?


Sincerely,

Mr. Pragmatist;


----------



## ManleyBeasley (Sep 17, 2008)

The issue (in my opinion) needs to center on the theological issues being ironed out or even dealt with. I have no problem with the gentleman being unordained as long as he preaches the right and true gospel. Charles Spurgeon was never ordained. Just my opinion.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 17, 2008)

He is a true Christian who feels called as an evangelist and he preaches a true but basic Gospel.


----------



## Honor (Sep 17, 2008)

wow, maybe I'm missing something but it seems like your friend is doing a great job.... He's reaching a hard to reach people.... sure he's uneducated but he has a Bible right? and he is a christian right? that's really all he needs... it says that the Bible is enough for teaching, correcting, reproof, edifying. plus he has the Holy Spirit in him. the same God who made the stars with the tips of His fingers. The God who works and moves in and through us. seems to me like that is all he needs.... especially if he is reaching people.

What you described sounds vaguely familiar... like something out of the Bible. I wouldn't discourage them...I would help and encourage them.
I know that my opinion will probably be rejected right out... but so what if it doesn't look like our churches... or a "reformed" church??? They are telling people about Jesus. They are standing up for the gospel and risking persecution. I would pray for these people. thank God for these people and help out in any way possible.


one more thing... you said he preaches a true *but* basic Gospel.
Sometimes that's all the people need. Jesus is God, He loves you, He died for you. He died on the cross for your sin, You need to accept Him and follow Him and walk with Him. Because He is the ONLY way to Heaven and ultimately eternal fellowship with Him.
Simple....Basic.... and Precious.


----------



## Dr. Bob Gonzales (Sep 17, 2008)

This description sounds very familiar. I have a missionary friend who's training leaders in a "closed country" in the Far East. What you've described bears a striking resemblance to his experience.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Sep 17, 2008)

Is it Martyn Lloyd-Jones or Charles Spurgeon?


----------



## Jimmy the Greek (Sep 17, 2008)

How about some more hints?


----------



## Archlute (Sep 17, 2008)

This is what would be called an "irregular" situation. It's not bad, just irregular, which means that God be praised and let's now slowly work on getting them trained and organized.

As an aside, they wouldn't have the problem of having to drive three hours into the mountains, nor the problem of having to take communion before baptism, if they had been taught that sprinkling/pouring are good modes of baptism as well. Just a thought.


----------



## Ivan (Sep 17, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Is it Martyn Lloyd-Jones or Charles Spurgeon?



I'm not sure about Lloyd-Jones, but I know Spurgeon was not ordained.


----------



## Iconoclast (Sep 17, 2008)

Perg,
It sounds a bit like this from Acts18


> 25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
> 
> 26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


 They might be lacking some instruction. You and Mrs. Perg can be like Aquila and Priscilla expounding in a positive way the word more completely


----------



## Reformed Baptist (Sep 17, 2008)

Is this what your seeing Floyd & Sally McClung ?


----------



## Leslie (Sep 17, 2008)

Absolutely fantastic account! The same thing is happening in the dark continent--a vigorous work of the Spirit!! Praise God!! If the warning not to fight something that MIGHT be of God was appropriate, how much more that which is OBVIOUSLY of God. 

Oh how I envy your position--being on the cutting edge. The Lord be with you!


----------



## Archlute (Sep 17, 2008)

Ivan said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Is it Martyn Lloyd-Jones or Charles Spurgeon?
> ...




Lloyd-Jones was ordained, but he had to jump through some hoops to get there because of his lack of credentials (i.e. having not studied theology at the university/seminary level). His situation was argued over by his denomination, with him neither wanting to delay his call nor study at the denominations liberalizing institutions, and eventually he squeezed through by being shuttled off to work at one of their least desirable mission works.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 17, 2008)

Archlute said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > nleshelman said:
> ...



It was not too long after being shuttled off to that mission work that he was offered the presidency of one of the denominational seminaries.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 18, 2008)

Reformed Baptist said:


> Is this what your seeing Floyd & Sally McClung ?



Sounds interesting. I would love to make this link into a new thread and gather opinions here on the PB about the concept of "simple church."


----------



## SolaGratia (Sep 18, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Dear Abby;
> 
> 
> A national co-worker of mine feels called by God as an evangelist. He is uneducated, but feels that he is an evangelist, and his peers agree. He has 20 years of fruit and acceptance by most of the regions' local Christians to back him up.
> ...



He sounds to me like an independent Baptist.


----------



## jogri17 (Sep 18, 2008)

un traditonal, but not heresy. It makes me uncomfortable given lots of the crazy doctrines flying around churches like those.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 18, 2008)

SolaGratia said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Abby;
> ...




Then a lot of the house-church movements worldwide would be a worldwide revival of the Independent Baptists wouldn't they?


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 18, 2008)

Iconoclast said:


> Perg,
> It sounds a bit like this from Acts18
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with Anthony.


----------



## SolaGratia (Sep 18, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> SolaGratia said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



Probaly, unless other independent Baptist want to do something about it.


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 18, 2008)

Perg,

Going back to another discussion, "without a firm confessional boundary, they set their heirs up for an inevitable slide into..." whatever aberrant teaching is sent their way by the adversary. I know a confessional standard is no "silver bullet", but it shields the believers against the spirits who twist Scripture.

I would seek to bring the leaders to accept doctrinal boundaries with simplicity, clarity, and beauty — in _written_ form.

A revival without structure and boundaries will go astray, such as the Welch revival of 1904 (see the book by that title, ISBN 1850490376).


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 18, 2008)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Perg,
> 
> Going back to another discussion, "without a firm confessional boundary, they set their heirs up for an inevitable slide into..." whatever aberrant teaching is sent their way by the adversary. I know a confessional standard is no "silver bullet", but it shields the believers against the spirits who twist Scripture.
> 
> ...




The Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed are already recognized.


----------

