# Calvinistic Methodist Distinctives



## Particular Baptist (Apr 20, 2010)

So, I've been thinking again and it usually gets me into trouble, but here I go again. I've been pondering the idea of church membership and polity for a while now and I still don't know where I fit in to the picture. But, I have long liked the confession of the Calvinistic Methodists in Wales from 1823. The statement is consistently Reformed and I like the way that both forms of baptism are allowed in the confession, thereby not alienating a fellow brother based upon the issue, and emphasizes presbyterian government. I guess I've just wanted to learn more about the Calvinistic Methodists and what some others on PB know about them. Also, has anyone else thought about the revival of a denomination of Calvinsitic Methodist churches?

Here's the link to the confession http://http://64.33.81.65/reformed/cmwales/main.htm


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## reformedminister (Apr 20, 2010)

I am a former United Methodist pastor. I wish there was a denomination like the former Calvinistic Methodist Church here in the U. S. today. The former Calvinistic Methodist Church changed it's name to Presbyterian Church of Wales. A couple of years ago I started a Calvinistic Methodist Church (Independent) in Springfield, MO. It was called Whitefield Reformed Methodist Church. We held services every Lord's Day for almost a year averaging only about ten people. We eventually merged with the Church we were renting the facility from, which is actually a Cumberland Presbyterian Church. We did not use the Calvinistic Methodist Confession but had our own. It was very reformed and also allowed for Believer's Baptism.


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## Cato (Apr 20, 2010)

My ancestors were Calvinist Methodists & I loved Lloyd Jones descriptions of them & the emphasis on "Feelings IE the Felt Christ. Just listen to anything by William Williams ...you know "Guide me, O thou Great Jehovah." I also loved how my great aunt Rachael would talk about times of revival & how her Grandparents 4 sons were named Matthew, Mark, Luke & John (Ioan in Welsh) & her grandfather was an open air preacher. All I know is their was great Piety, Reverence & Joy in that movement. Thank you PB for educating me how the Anglicans & the Baptists in my family in the UK came together to become one group....Id always wondered! *Please keep me posted on this subject matter*.


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## Whitefield (Apr 20, 2010)

There are still Calvinistic Methodists around, even within the United Methodist Church 
Sometimes I suspect Charles Wesley was a crypto-Calvinist.


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## Cato (Apr 20, 2010)

Youd have to educate me on that one as all my Welsh family (save my brother & I ) have kicked it.
Dear aunt Rachael would stop me every time I mentioned that they were Methodists with ...." Welsh Methodist's dear...took me years to understand fully just what she was saying.... But they could sing LOL!


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## reformedminister (Apr 20, 2010)

Amen to you brother!


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## Philip (Apr 20, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> There are still Calvinistic Methodists around, even within the United Methodist Church
> Sometimes I suspect Charles Wesley was a crypto-Calvinist.


 
Charles Wesley, from my limited understanding, seems to have been an Arminian in theology, but a Calvinist in practice. His hymns certainly have a Calvinist bent.


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## timmopussycat (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't know whether it's still in print but Eifon Evans' "Daniel Rowland and the Great Evangelical Awakening in Wales" (Banner of Truth) is probably the best introduction to the Calvinistic Methodists available in English.


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 21, 2010)

What do others of you think about the practice the 1823 Confession allows in regards to baptism, that both would be allowed to be taught? Would this put such a Methodist congregation in a situation similar to that of the Free Presbyterian Church or could there be another way in which to deal with the issue that would allow both paedo and credo churches to be together without damaging the importance of church membership?


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## Particular Baptist (Apr 21, 2010)

I just read an article by Martin Lloyd-Jones' describing what Methodism is and after reading it, I wonder if we couldn't consider John Piper to be a closet Calvinistic Methodist? Could Christian Hedonism be called Calvinistic Methodism?

Here's Lloyd-Jones' definition

"What was it then? Well, Methodism is essentially experimental or experiental religion and a way of life. I think that is an adequate definition of it. What produced this? How did this ever come into being? The answer is that it was born of a number of things. The first was the realization that religion is primarily and essentially something personal. This was the thing that came to all of them. They all became aware of their own personal sinfulness; they underwent conviction of sin, and it was an agonizing prncess. But they all experienced this terrible need of forgiveness. This became a burden to them - both parties. Then there was also a great desire for a knowledge of God - a direct knowledge of God: not to believe things about God - they had already got that - but the desire to know God. 'This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent' (John 17:3). All this led on then to a desire for assurance of sins forgiven." 


Here's the rest of the article William Williams & Welsh Calvinistic Methodism


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Apr 21, 2010)

Can someone explain to me how this Calvinistic-Methodist stuff works? or rather how it worked?


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## dudley (Apr 22, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> > There are still Calvinistic Methodists around, even within the United Methodist Church
> ...


 
I agree and if anyone wants to have information on the Calvinist Methodists you can e mail [email protected] <[email protected]>. I sent for info from him when I was studying all the different Protestant denominations and Protestantism prior to becoming a Presbyterian.


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## yeutter (Apr 22, 2010)

The old Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Church in the United States merged with the old United Presbyterian Church of North America [UPCNA] in about 1920. The old UPCNA merged in 1958 with the mainstream northern Presbyterian Church.


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## Cato (Apr 22, 2010)

Yes that would be PCUSA .... Very Liberal & not even a mere glimpse of what the CM in the day of Martin Lloyd Jones. Why they would even consider any merger is beyond me but I would love to hear any explanation if anyone knows.


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## Cato (May 1, 2010)

If you ever heard or read John Pipers commentary on DMLJ (who probably the most solid CM supporter of the day) Lloyd-Jones & CM's showed signs of being almost Charismatic in their approach to their need for "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." My question is 2 fold....1) Is a Charismatic stance necessary for successful revival? & (2) Did Lloyd-Jones consciously suppress Charismatic activities for fear of rebuke and did that kill any chance of successful revival in the 20th century?


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## Willem van Oranje (May 1, 2010)

Particular Baptist said:


> What do others of you think about the practice the 1823 Confession allows in regards to baptism, that both would be allowed to be taught? Would this put such a Methodist congregation in a situation similar to that of the Free Presbyterian Church or could there be another way in which to deal with the issue that would allow both paedo and credo churches to be together without damaging the importance of church membership?



If paedo-and sola-credo baptist positions could exist together (among church leaders) without ultimately damaging the order of the church, my hunch is that this would not be an issue dividing credos from paedos, and that we would have long since united fully into one body. The reason why it has to be considered as a qualification for full communion (at least, of leadership) together in one church is because agreement on baptism and church membership are so essential to the order of the church.


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## timmopussycat (May 1, 2010)

Cato The Elder said:


> If you ever heard or read John Pipers commentary on DMLJ (who probably the most solid CM supporter of the day) Lloyd-Jones & CM's showed signs of being almost Charismatic in their approach to their need for "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." My question is 2 fold....1) Is a Charismatic stance necessary for successful revival? & (2) Did Lloyd-Jones consciously suppress Charismatic activities for fear of rebuke and did that kill any chance of successful revival in the 20th century?


 
The answers to your questions are: no, I don't think so, and no. 

Whle they occasionally experienced certain remarkable providences, the Calvinistic Methodists of Wales (and MLJ himself), like the English and American Calvinists (represented by Whitfield and Edwards) did not understand their experiences within a theology that anticipated Pentecostal & charismatic opinions about gifts given by the Spirit. MLJ is on record as saying it was "quite unfair" to try and tag him with a "Pentecostal label." 

MLJ insisted that all that claimed to be charismatic should be measured against the bible's teaching of how the gifts should operate. In practice, this stance would have inevitably suppressed a good deal of "charismania" (i.e., Pentacostal and charismatic practices not substantiated by Scripture) but he would not have suppressed anything that falls within the biblical parameters of the gifts. Although I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, it was reported that when a godly Christian told him that she spoke in tongues privately on occasion, it seems that all MLJ did in reply was remind her not to use that gift publically.

Since MLJ's stance was honouring to the Scriptural command to "Test all things Hold fast that which is good. Avoid every appearance of evil" (1 Thess. 5:19-22), it could not have quenched the Holy Spirit and hindered true revival in the 20th century.


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## Cato (May 1, 2010)

OK then, Why has there been no revival since the CM did it?

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------

Also, and this has really been bugging me, Why would a people with such a distinct way of worship, their own practiced confessions and pretty interesting take on God & so on wish to fold their tent (excuse the pun) into the presbyterian church? Does DMLJ or any author ever answer that question?


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## timmopussycat (May 1, 2010)

Cato The Elder said:


> OK then, Why has there been no revival since the CM did it?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------
> 
> Also, and this has really been bugging me, Why would a people with such a distinct way of worship, their own practiced confessions and pretty interesting take on God & so on wish to fold their tent (excuse the pun) into the presbyterian church? Does DMLJ or any author ever answer that question?


 
There have been revivals since the CM's. It's just that we have not seen major ones in the English speaking world. MLJ himself is credited by a secular obsever for being one of two men who kept Wales from going Communist in the 30's. I have reason to suspect that at least two of the reasons MLJ would give in answer to your question about the CM "tent folding" was an increasing desire to have human respectability and an increased focus on secondary matters within the denomination.


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## lynnie (May 1, 2010)

Cato The Elder said:


> If you ever heard or read John Pipers commentary on DMLJ (who probably the most solid CM supporter of the day) Lloyd-Jones & CM's showed signs of being almost Charismatic in their approach to their need for "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." My question is 2 fold....1) Is a Charismatic stance necessary for successful revival? & (2) Did Lloyd-Jones consciously suppress Charismatic activities for fear of rebuke and did that kill any chance of successful revival in the 20th century?



1. No. Jack Miller and New Life PCA went from a living room, to 5 churches and a global mission work. Jack understood dependency on God in prayer, and like with DML-J, fervent prayer undergirded everything. It isn't about gifts continuing, it is about the Holy Spirit being poured out.

2. DML-J was initially joyful about the very early charismatic movement, and what seemed to be an interest in the neglected area of the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives today. What he suppressed was not the Holy Spirit, but the ROTTEN doctrine that quickly took over the charismatic movement. He was right, and it greatly saddened him. ( and I speak as a continuist)


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## Cato (May 1, 2010)

so Piper's accusations of DMLJ is ungrounded. Also CM's own Confessions allowed for both Padeo & Credo so by going Presbyterian were they not forsaking those members who were baptized Credo?

I really need a book that knows what really happened at this juncture. Need to know what my ancestors went through in there struggles of Faith....anyone have any suggestions?

Lastly Lynnie. What is a continuist?


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## Dewi Sant (May 1, 2010)

Particular Baptist said:


> So, I've been thinking again and it usually gets me into trouble, but here I go again. I've been pondering the idea of church membership and polity for a while now and I still don't know where I fit in to the picture. But, I have long liked the confession of the Calvinistic Methodists in Wales from 1823. The statement is consistently Reformed and I like the way that both forms of baptism are allowed in the confession, thereby not alienating a fellow brother based upon the issue, and emphasizes presbyterian government. I guess I've just wanted to learn more about the Calvinistic Methodists and what some others on PB know about them. Also, has anyone else thought about the revival of a denomination of Calvinsitic Methodist churches?
> 
> Here's the link to the confession http://http://64.33.81.65/reformed/cmwales/main.htm


 
Dear Spencer,
Try me again on that link - I can't get anything but a blank page.
I recommend Welsh Calvinistic Methodism by William Williams. It is excellent. For the Baptist perspective of Welsh Revival, read Christmas Evans - The One-Eyed Preacher of Wales by Tim Shenton. An interesting side trip, but very important to an understanding of the times is, The Atonement Controversy in Welsh Theological Literature and Debate, 1707-1841 by Owen Thomas and translated by John Aaron.

The history of these Associations is remarkable and as we learn more we begin to get a sense of the importance of these revivals. Between 1735 and 1905 no less than 9 Spirit driven revivals swept across Wales - each having its beginning in the Calvinistic Methodist camp. From Wales their influence was felt all over the globe.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Never mind, I googled it and I'm printing it now. Thanks.
And thanks everyone - For all of your input. I've been interested in this stuff for a while but I rarely hear anyone talk about it. I though only people named Jones or Williams or Harris found this interesting!


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## timmopussycat (May 1, 2010)

The Welsh Calvinistic Methodists were one of the gospel's great triumphs and can be profitablystudied by anyone who has an interest in vital godliness.


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## Dewi Sant (May 1, 2010)

timmopussycat said:


> I don't know whether it's still in print but Eifon Evans' "Daniel Rowland and the Great Evangelical Awakening in Wales" (Banner of Truth) is probably the best introduction to the Calvinistic Methodists available in English.


 
I couldn't find that one - maybe it's out of print. Rats!

A fairly recent find (I'm saving my money for it) is:
The Calvinistic Methodist Fathers of Wales, 2 Volumes
Jones, John Morgan, et. al
Retail Price: $79.00 Publisher: Banner of Truth


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## Kevin (May 1, 2010)

Stuart Olyott is a Calvinistic Methodist in Wales. They now go by the name "Evangelical Movement in Wales".

He calls himself a "deep water presbyterian".


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## Jerusalem Blade (May 2, 2010)

Here's an essay from the Evans book: Daniel Rowland (1711-1790), Welsh Anglican Preacher

Another on Rowland: Revival comes to Wales

Googling the title, "Daniel Rowland and the Great Evangelical Awakening in Wales", gets a lot of results.

I see Amazon has a used copy for $20: Amazon.com: Used and New: Daniel Rowland

With the ISBN - 0851514464 or 9780851514468 - it should be easy to track down a copy.

Evangelical Press of Wales published a lot of Eifion Evans books, but they went out of business, I think, and merged into today's Evangelical Press. One EPW book of Evans I have is _The Welsh Revival of 1904_, and another BOT book on the topic, _The Welsh Revival_ by Thomas Phillips. I was interested in the background of Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts' _War on the Saints_, a study of demonic counterfeits of the Holy Spirit seen in the Welsh revival at the beginning of the 20th century. Penn-Lewis was a Calvinistic Methodist. 

ML-J wrote of his views on the "gifts" in his _The Baptism and Gifts of the Spirit_ (Baker 1996, ISBN 0801011175), earlier published in the UK under the name, _Joy Unspeakable_.


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## Dewi Sant (May 2, 2010)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Here's an essay from the Evans book: Daniel Rowland (1711-1790), Welsh Anglican Preacher
> 
> Another on Rowland: Revival comes to Wales
> 
> ...


 
I was going to "Thank You" using the toggle @ the bottom of your post. Alas, I see yours is a thankless task. So thank you for these new links and book ideas.
Kris


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## Cato (May 2, 2010)

How about Davis or Lewis or Garrett? The Cymry. do you know "Ninnau"?


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