# The Tithe



## Scott Bushey (Mar 14, 2004)

Is the tithe for this age or is it just offerings now?


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 14, 2004)

[quote:96ecbfadac][i:96ecbfadac]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:96ecbfadac]
Is the tithe for this age or is it just offerings now? [/quote:96ecbfadac]

Very interesting that you ask that question. I just bought a tape series on that very question. The answer seems to be a solid yes, tithes is for the past age and this age. The two core texts used were Matthew 23:23, where Jesus told the Pharisees that they did the tithes but forgot the weighter things of the law. He then said that they should do continue to do tithes and add the weighter things. The second text was 1 Cor. 9:1-14. Here Paul goes into what rights he had to receive funds. Especially v. 13-14, say that the minister is to receive funds the same way that ministers received funds under the old covenant. Which was by tithing.

Hermonta


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## pastorway (Mar 14, 2004)

No, the tithe was a national taxation system for the nation of Israel that no longer applies. The principles for giving for the New Testament church are principles of joyful and sacrificial giving not determined by any legalistic percentages laid down in the OT. Read 1 Cor 8-9 for starters.

If we abide by the OT tithe system we would be required to give anywhere from 27% to 33% of any increase whatsoever to the church, depending on the year, time of year, crops, etc!

Phillip


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 14, 2004)

[quote:37098734dc][i:37098734dc]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:37098734dc]
No, the tithe was a national taxation system for the nation of Israel that no longer applies. The principles for giving for the New Testament church are principles of joyful and sacrificial giving not determined by any legalistic percentages laid down in the OT. Read 1 Cor 8-9 for starters.

If we abide by the OT tithe system we would be required to give anywhere from 27% to 33% of any increase whatsoever to the church, depending on the year, time of year, crops, etc!

Phillip [/quote:37098734dc]
How does Abraham's tithe fit into this scheme then? It's his example that I've heard most people refer to combined with Paul in 1 Cor. when they wish to teach the 10% rule.


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## pastorway (Mar 14, 2004)

Abram's tithe was a voluntary gift, not a required percentage under the Mosaic Law. The example of Abram fits what I have described, a voluntary, cheerful, sacrificial gift....not a required percentage.

I think 10% is the place to start, but not the magic number as in, &quot;Do this and you have net the requirement.&quot; The requirement in the NT is the attitude not the amount!

Phillip


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## FrozenChosen (Mar 14, 2004)

I thought about making this post earlier today, isn't it odd that it's already here!


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 14, 2004)

[quote:2de39d164c][i:2de39d164c]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:2de39d164c]
Abram's tithe was a voluntary gift, not a required percentage under the Mosaic Law. The example of Abram fits what I have described, a voluntary, cheerful, sacrificial gift....not a required percentage.

I think 10% is the place to start, but not the magic number as in, &quot;Do this and you have net the requirement.&quot; The requirement in the NT is the attitude not the amount!

Phillip [/quote:2de39d164c]

Pastor Way,
Paul spoke of his right to something that he was renouncing in 1 Cor 9. What exactly do you think he had a right to have? It really seems weird if he was trying to say that he had a right to whatever anyone felt that they wanted to give him. 

It really seems that he is saying that he had a right to money as the levitical priesthood had a right to money under the old covenant.

Hermonta


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## pastorway (Mar 15, 2004)

In the NT the act and right attitude of giving is required. But a certain amount is not required. 

Ministers are supported by the voluntary gifts of the congregation and do not collect a &quot;church tax&quot; for their support.

Phillip


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 15, 2004)

[quote:1613d4862f][i:1613d4862f]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:1613d4862f]
In the NT the act and right attitude of giving is required. But a certain amount is not required. 

Ministers are supported by the voluntary gifts of the congregation and do not collect a &quot;church tax&quot; for their support.

Phillip [/quote:1613d4862f]

Phillip,
Was this response directed at my question? If so how do you think that it is a valid response? If Paul is not talking about a requirement, then 1 Cor 9, basically is him telling the people that he has a right to take donations. This seems a bit weird that people would actually claim that he could not accept donations, so that he would have to preach against them.

I am not writing against, the attitude of giving being important. I am just writing that an emphasis on attitude does not overturn the requirement of 10% (I think an argument could be put forward that 10% was all the tithe required, however that is an argument for after deciding that tithes is valid or invalid today).

If this post was not to me, then It can be ignored

Hermonta


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## dswatts (Mar 15, 2004)

I agree with Pastorway completely...I think Malachi 3 is one of the most abused verses of Scripture in our contemporary scene, particularly by the 'name it/claim it' group.

I believe the rules that govern our giving are: 1. attitude (cheerful) 2. consistent or systematic 3. sacrificial 4. proportional

Just my :wr50:

Grace,
Dwayne


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## kceaster (Mar 15, 2004)

I cannot even pretend to be faithful in this at all. And, while not being faithful in the tithe could press some to the absence of giving, or that their giving would be somewhat less cheerful if they had to give a whole tithe, I will not back away from these statements.

1. God EXPECTS us to give back to Him a tenth of all we have. Scripture is clear on this point. This is not merely money, but all we have.

2. God loves a cheerful giver.

3. Any obedience is the result of the Holy Spirit working in the life of the believer.

4. Tithing as an act of obedience is based in the monergistic work of the Spirit.

5. Although the Spirit works mightily in some so that they give more than a tithe, the overarching principle in the Scriptures is that the tenth is the beginning of obedience.

6. If the Spirit worked obedience in the OT toward the tithe, then there is no reason to believe, again because it is not abrogated, that the Spirit would not continue to work obedience in the people of God.

7. If a tenth was what the Spirit worked in the OT, a tenth is what the Spirit works in the NT.

8. The tenth, although it is used unto the minister or the ministry, is not to the minister or to the church. The tenth is obedience to God and He will determine where it goes by His sovereign will. It matters not that we no longer have a formal priesthood. We never gave it to the priests, even in the OT. We gave it to God.

To my shame, I have railed against the tithe in the past. Since God has always desired the obedience of His people in giving back to Him, and since this can only be accomplished in His people by His Spirit, it is unwarranted to think that He has changed this from the OT to the NT anymore than He changed any of the moral law. I reject that this was an Israelite tax, because it was not. There were taxes added on later in their history. But the tithe in the OT was not for the Levite only. It was for the stranger, the widow, and the orphan. It was to be eaten before the LORD, in celebration and rejoicing.

I think the biggest reason that we hate the tithe now is because of what it goes towards and we think we cannot afford it. I speak to myself here, as well. We are sinfully wicked with our resources because it goes to buildings and other things that are not necessary. Offerings may go to those things. But the tithe is to be spent before the Lord, in adoration of Him for what He has provided. It provides for the minister, for the stranger, for the widow, and for the orphan.

How silly it is to think that God, by His Spirit, impelled His own people to give in the OT, but that the Spirit no longer does so.

How could we, in greater grace than they, be compelled to give less? If anything, we should be giving more. Shame on all of us for this.

In Christ,

KC


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## dswatts (Mar 15, 2004)

[quote:c726062049][i:c726062049]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:c726062049]


it is unwarranted to think that He has changed this from the OT to the NT anymore than He changed any of the moral law. 
[/quote:c726062049]

I don't think anyone is arguing that God has changed His moral law, however I would certainly question if tithing is truly apart of God's moral law.

Grace,
Dwayne


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## twogunfighter (Mar 15, 2004)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

KC nailed it. Here are a few verses. See for yourself if you can make them into a &quot;tax&quot; for national Israel. And how was it again that I Cor 8-9 abrogated the tithe? Also, yes our requirement should be done joyfully as our reasonable service to the LORD that has given us every good and perfect gift. 

Le 27:30 - Show Context
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. 

Le 27:32 - Show Context
And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 

Nu 18:26 - Show Context
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. 

De 12:17 - Show Context
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: 

De 14:22 - Show Context
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 

De 14:23 - Show Context
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 

De 14:28 - Show Context
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 

2Ch 31:5 - Show Context
And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly. 

2Ch 31:6 - Show Context
And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps. 

Ne 10:38 - Show Context
And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. 

Ne 13:12 - Show Context
Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. 

Chuck


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## Gregg (Mar 15, 2004)

Does giving/tithing always have to be to a church? Paul was asked to remember the poor and his collections that he received were brought to Jerusalem for the poor saints there.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 15, 2004)

It would always be done within the covenant community.


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## JWJ (Mar 15, 2004)

> [i:ea6abe1fcf]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:ea6abe1fcf]
> I agree with Pastorway completely...I think Malachi 3 is one of the most abused verses of Scripture in our contemporary scene, particularly by the 'name it/claim it' group.
> 
> I believe the rules that govern our giving are: 1. attitude (cheerful) 2. consistent or systematic 3. sacrificial 4. proportional
> ...


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## dswatts (Mar 15, 2004)

Malachi 3, read in context, clearly shows that the tithe was of the firstfruits of the land, for the provision of the priesthood and the poor. Notice that God says He will 'open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing'...in context, this means, of course, rain. God is telling them that if they are obedient in tithing of the firstfruits of their land, He will bless them with rain and an abundance of crops. Too many times these verses and the concept of the tithe is wrested into some kind of work where by we merit God's favor, particularly in the 'TBN' crowd. But that mentality seeps into many. I have read the posts of 'reformed' people on other boards who say &quot;I've been faithfully tithing for the last 3 months, but I am still struggling! What's wrong?&quot; Like some how a legalistic compliance with a mere 10% tithe means God is obligated to grant us smooth sailing financially! The fact of the matter is that the Lord owns it all! Period. And we should seek to use what He has entrusted to us as good stewards for His glory and the furtherance of the kingdom of God. So I would say, give and give liberally (did I just use THAT word?!?! :biggrin, be a faithful steward as one who will give an account. But too many are in bondage to this idea of 10% tithing. We almost sound like Pharisees with the questions....Gross or net? Do I have to tithe off my tax return? etc and ad infinitum!

End of rant. 

Grace,
Dwayne


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## kceaster (Mar 15, 2004)

*Dwayne....*

[quote:fd3b98e994][i:fd3b98e994]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:fd3b98e994]
[quote:fd3b98e994][i:fd3b98e994]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:fd3b98e994]


it is unwarranted to think that He has changed this from the OT to the NT anymore than He changed any of the moral law. 
[/quote:fd3b98e994]

I don't think anyone is arguing that God has changed His moral law, however I would certainly question if tithing is truly apart of God's moral law.

Grace,
Dwayne [/quote:fd3b98e994]

The reason many place this within the moral law is because it predates all written law and because it would seem that God wrote it on the heart. Look at the gifts brought by Cain and Abel. Who taught them this? The surrounding peoples?

Abel brought the first fruits and the fat. Cain brought his meager offering. What was the difference between the two? One was in line with God's moral law, the other against it. Cain sinned against the moral law. He did not sin because he was not cheerful or did not have the right attitude. He sinned because he did not offer the firstfruits.

This set a precedence and so it was brought out in the Reformed thinking that it is not included in OT ceremony, but should rightly be held under the correct and prescribed worship of God which is not abrogated.

I should also add that Malachi 3 is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, etc. Just because others have gleaned from this passage the incorrect doctrine, does not mean we should throw it out, nor should we include it in that part of the testimony that we no longer need to heed.

In Christ,

KC


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## dswatts (Mar 15, 2004)

> KCeaster &quot;Who taught them this? The surrounding peoples?&quot;
> 
> 
> > I had always understood that Abel's offering was in obedience to God's example in the garden in shedding the blood of animals in sacrifice to cover Adam &amp; Eve's nakedness (sin). It was for that reason that Abel's was pleasing and Cain's rejected. Nothing says that Cain's offering was 'meager'; it was simply not what had been commanded to be offered by God's example. Perhaps this is in recognition of the fact that when Adam &amp; Eve sinned and attempted to 'cover' their sin and nakedness themselves with vegetation, God rejected their own attempt to do so, and provided a sacrifice and clothed them with the skins of animals. Doesn't this perfectly picture the natural man's attempts to atone for his sin his own way rather than accepting the sacrifice of the Lamb of God?
> ...


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 15, 2004)

What KC said is very good.


[quote:70b98536f7]
if tithing is truly apart of God's moral law. 
[/quote:70b98536f7]

This is THE CRUX of the question. If it is, and I am undecided just yet, then tithing is something can can never be abrogated. Could it be part of the first commandment? Would stewardship of God's things (everything is God's including the cattle ona thousand hills) be demonstrated as rightly keeping the first commandment? If idolatry in any form, even by material wealth in any form, is breaking the moral law, then tithing would be a demonstration, or a right outworking of the first commandment.

The steward must remember that everything belongs to God. If God blesses, then Abraham's tithe (Hebrew - tenth) of the spoils is the correct response to God's providing the steward with responsibility to oversee a portion of God's goods (including the clothes on our back).

I might have just convinced myself that it is. Will think more along those lines...


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## pastorway (Mar 16, 2004)

To properly understand stewardship we must understand that we are not to give to get......we cannot approach giving from the standpoint of &quot;how will this benefit me&quot; because then we are not worshipping God with our giving but instead making an idol of our own wants and desires.

Phillip


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 16, 2004)

*A thought or two ...*

My position? I tithe; I always have, even my allowance. However, it is not an ordinance. 

All we have and all we are is God's. We give up or back to God what is his already. Giving signifies our acknowledgment of this relationship. We have the pre-Mosaic example of Abraham's giving, teaching us he recognized this relationship. I don't think his example has the force of Law, but neither do I think that it is something to be ignored. The Tithe is a [i:7c2410c8be]significant[/i:7c2410c8be] representation of our understanding. It requires us to plan and sacrifice.

The Israelites were under the law as pedagogy. Just like children, they were being taught (through bondage to the Law) how to live. Hence, we find God even constraining them in the realm of finances. For example: &quot;You will tithe to my Levites.&quot; And: &quot;You will set aside another tithe to take with you to Jerusalem for celebration (party!).&quot; 

In other words their freedom was limited like a child's in order to discipline them. Now we live in the age of grace--the age of Adulthood. Like a mature grown up, no one is standing over us to tell us &quot;Give amount X to the church.&quot; &quot;Support this particular Cause.&quot; But we should have been trained to it already. And we ought to be giving as much or more as under Law, unless we really cannot (in which case the widows mite should testify to us).

If you can find a copy of T.E. Peck, vol. 1 (I think) (a venerable Southern Presbyterian--works avail. Banner, 3 vols), he writes in this vein--giving as an evangelical duty, and NOT as tithe legislation.
:wr50:

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 16, 2004)

Was the tithe ever monitary? Was the tithe not meant to be bought to the temple?


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 16, 2004)

[quote:de596bc2f2][i:de596bc2f2]Originally posted by Contra_Mundum[/i:de596bc2f2]
My position? I tithe; I always have, even my allowance. However, it is not an ordinance. 

All we have and all we are is God's. We give up or back to God what is his already. Giving signifies our acknowledgment of this relationship. We have the pre-Mosaic example of Abraham's giving, teaching us he recognized this relationship. I don't think his example has the force of Law, but neither do I think that it is something to be ignored. The Tithe is a [i:de596bc2f2]significant[/i:de596bc2f2] representation of our understanding. It requires us to plan and sacrifice.

The Israelites were under the law as pedagogy. Just like children, they were being taught (through bondage to the Law) how to live. Hence, we find God even constraining them in the realm of finances. For example: &quot;You will tithe to my Levites.&quot; And: &quot;You will set aside another tithe to take with you to Jerusalem for celebration (party!).&quot; 

In other words their freedom was limited like a child's in order to discipline them. Now we live in the age of grace--the age of Adulthood. Like a mature grown up, no one is standing over us to tell us &quot;Give amount X to the church.&quot; &quot;Support this particular Cause.&quot; But we should have been trained to it already. And we ought to be giving as much or more as under Law, unless we really cannot (in which case the widows mite should testify to us).

If you can find a copy of T.E. Peck, vol. 1 (I think) (a venerable Southern Presbyterian--works avail. Banner, 3 vols), he writes in this vein--giving as an evangelical duty, and NOT as tithe legislation.
:wr50:

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by Contra_Mundum] [/quote:de596bc2f2]

So is less than 10% to your church a sin?

Hermonta


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## pastorway (Mar 16, 2004)

As soon as we focus on a percentage or an exact figure we have missed the whole point!

Again, to reiterate, guidelines for giving revolve around &quot;1. attitude (cheerful) 2. consistent or systematic 3. sacrificial 4. proportional&quot;.

Phillip


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## twogunfighter (Mar 17, 2004)

Is the tithe completely inviolable? In my mind no. If I have a choice between feeding, clothing or housing my family; or tithing then I will take care of my family. But if God gives me enough so that I can tithe and also take care of all the things that are [u:052ec8fc3b]necessary[/u:052ec8fc3b], then I must tithe. The problem is that most of us have the necessities and still don't want to tithe. I even have luxuries and sometimes fail to tithe. The financial planners tell us to pay ourselves first and to give ourselves 10%; shouldn't we give at least that much to God? 

If we say that we can find the standard for how to live our lives in the Bible and the Bible clearly suggests that 10% is an appropriate amount to bring to God, why should we ignore the weight of Scripture in this matter.


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 17, 2004)

[quote:e38b50b909][i:e38b50b909]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:e38b50b909]
As soon as we focus on a percentage or an exact figure we have missed the whole point!

Again, to reiterate, guidelines for giving revolve around &quot;1. attitude (cheerful) 2. consistent or systematic 3. sacrificial 4. proportional&quot;.

Phillip [/quote:e38b50b909]

If this is true then explain Paul's wording in 1 Cor. 9. Is he saying that he has a right to accept your voluntary gifts of whatever amount you like; in the same way that the levitical priesthood did? 

Hermonta

P.S. I am not trying to be hard to deal with, but I do not think that I have seen a reasonable response to this passage by those who advocate that tithes is gone and replaced with various offerings.


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## kceaster (Mar 17, 2004)

*All...*

It is still a matter of obedience, and the Spirit is the main in that area.

So, I'll ask again. If the Spirit impels believers in the OT to give at least 10%, then how, in the expanded age of grace, could it be less than that?

Jesus commended the widow for her giving, and was her's 10%? No. It was much more.

How could the Spirit allow us to give less when more has been given to us? It doesn't make sense.

In Christ,

KC


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## JohnV (Mar 17, 2004)

Is it not curious that this &quot;problem&quot; is one that comes out when there is abundance? I am inclined to think that the problem is more of coveting than of tithing. Is it coveting when the monies that we have are used for daily sustenance? It was told us that Jesus said the widow gave more than those who had abundance and gave out of that. But it was freely given in hope; not given in expectation of return.

It seems to me that tithing can be wrong too then, if it is given in expectation of return. We are not even to lend with expectation of return, how much less when we give unto the Lord out of gratitude.

The entire law is summed up in this: love the Lord, and love your neighbour. That includes the laws on tithing. That is how we fulfill that law. And God's commands are not burdensome, but a delight. They teach us how to love.

The harder thing is to know what to keep back, not what to give. The lessen from the widow is that those who give ten perecent in their self-righteousness, thinking they have given enough or more than enough, can never give enough because they don't give out of their heart, but by command. The widow gave out of her heart, as expressed by giving her whole living, keeping nothing back as if she needed that more than God's blessing. 

Does this get us any closer to whether or not we need to tithe ten percent, at the least? No, but I don't think that it was intended in that way either. God loves a cheerful giver. I suppose that this includes that God does not respect a cheerful withholder. After all God does not have a bank account; He doesn't need our abundance to do His mighty works. But He will use what we offer to Him for His purposes, whether a little or a lot. And He will bless us according to our devotion to Him, not according to our legal minimums. 

It is just as wrong, to my way of thinking, to try to get away with less than ten percent as it is to try to get away with ten percent or more. It is clear that many of us on this Board would have a hard time of it if we gave ten percent. But in these plights do we still give cheerfully and freely?


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## staythecourse (Mar 17, 2004)

What pleased Jesus in the NT? The widow who gave all she had - more than tithe of course. I would say she gave from the heart -&quot;not under compulsion&quot; saying &quot;I ought to give such and such&quot; amount under the law

My job at work in putting tithes and offering in our system here. I used to chuckle and feel sorry for the checks I see written out to the penny of a tithe every week. What is their motivation I wonder?

Then there is the &quot;liberal giver&quot; and their personality is &quot;fat&quot; as the proverb goes, giving over and above the required 10% for the right reasons. 

Jesus didn't put the Pharisee down regarding their giving 10% under the law but I think they were doing the &quot;law and nothing but the law so help them God.&quot;

Don't make me a stickler of 10% God, make my soul fat.

Also, I see money being used between the people of the early church quite a bit - almost communistic (God's way I mean) and whoever had need it was given. Also, churches collected and gave to the poor of other churches - (What a brotherhood they had back then) 

So, I say if I have a problem giving 10% there's a heart problem. I gotta get off and stay off my wallet and remeber the cause and be a joyful giver.

I'm sure I'm pumping myself up more than anyone, but giving is a joy and privilege - Who knows what God's secretly going to do in his big plan with the cash. It's a mystery how he can use grimy luchre and convert to kingdom use - that's a miracle!

Where's my pulpit?


:wr50:


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## pastorway (Mar 17, 2004)

Okay guys and gals.....let's look at this and see what is being missed.

No one is saying &quot;Don't Give.&quot;

The principles given to us in the New Testament that deal with giving, as have been expressed several times, include the following:

1. Attitude - we must give cheerfully. In order to give with the right attitude we must be giving!

2. Systematic - routine, a habit of giving.

3. Sacrificial - To give sacrificially you must also be giving, giving until it hurts! Now at times, a sacrificial gift may not be 10%, at other times it will be more that 10%.

4. Proportional - this is where we really define things. Giving is to be proportional. Do we give other things more than we give God? Or is our giving in proportion to what we have?

All of these suppose that we are consistently giving. What is being missed is the fact that the tithe is not a requirement in the NT Church. We are not told give 10% no matter what or else. We are told to give cheerfully, systematically, sacrificially, and proportionally. So I would think that those of us arguing [i:0383bd4aa3]against[/i:0383bd4aa3] the tithe are actually arguing for MORE giving than what the laws of Israel required.

As for 1 Cor 9, Paul says God commands that those who preach the gospel live by the gospel. He does not say then that the church is required to give 10% to support the pastor. He is saying that the church, in its giving as he has laid it out, should give to support the ministry of the gospel. No percentage. He is giving instructions for how to use what has been and wil be given. In other words, he says that while he has a right to be supported by the church, he is not using that right! But for other ministers that do use the right, then the church should know that part of what they doi give to the Lord should support the ministers in their church.

Again, it is not a percentage. And no one is saying don't give. What we are saying is that the Old Testament tithe is not God's plan for giving in the church. He has not decreed a percentage by law. 

And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money. 2 Cor in clear that we cannot rightly give anything to God until we have first given ourselves completely to Him! (2 Cor 8:5)

It is a matter of generosity, not obligation!

Second Corinthians 8 and 9 give us some of the most detailed instructions concernging giving from the NT, and Paul never uses the word tithe or refers to a percentage.

Phillip


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## staythecourse (Mar 17, 2004)

I agree that it truly is an attitude of the heart and a decision of the will to give to the Lord sacrificially. Well put. He is looking for the whole person and not just the moneybag. That's an example of our heart-set toward Him and His work.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 17, 2004)

Phillip writes:
'And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money.'

Again I ask, was the tithe ever monetary?


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## dswatts (Mar 17, 2004)

Well put, Pastorway.

Scott: In answer to your question: No, I don't believe it was 'monetary' as we consider the notion, and I think the context of Malachi 3 bears that out. That said, of course, this was a barter system of economics, so crops and animals were the 'currency' of the day, so in that sense, it was monetary. How's that for a yes and no answer? 

Grace, 
Dwayne


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## kceaster (Mar 17, 2004)

*Scott...*

Deut 14:24-25 &quot;But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.&quot;

In Christ,

KC


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## ChristianTrader (Mar 17, 2004)

[quote:4b1b30a7fa][i:4b1b30a7fa]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:4b1b30a7fa]
Okay guys and gals.....let's look at this and see what is being missed.

No one is saying &quot;Don't Give.&quot;

The principles given to us in the New Testament that deal with giving, as have been expressed several times, include the following:

1. Attitude - we must give cheerfully. In order to give with the right attitude we must be giving!

2. Systematic - routine, a habit of giving.

3. Sacrificial - To give sacrificially you must also be giving, giving until it hurts! Now at times, a sacrificial gift may not be 10%, at other times it will be more that 10%.

4. Proportional - this is where we really define things. Giving is to be proportional. Do we give other things more than we give God? Or is our giving in proportion to what we have?

[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I really do not have a problem with what is said her, the only question is if one is justified in denying a &quot;carryover&quot; of tithes from the old covenant to the new one.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]

All of these suppose that we are consistently giving. What is being missed is the fact that the tithe is not a requirement in the NT Church. We are not told give 10% no matter what or else. We are told to give cheerfully, systematically, sacrificially, and proportionally. So I would think that those of us arguing [i:4b1b30a7fa]against[/i:4b1b30a7fa] the tithe are actually arguing for MORE giving than what the laws of Israel required.
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

The people who are advocating tithing being for today are not arguing against people giving more than 10% to various working of the Kingdom. They are just saying that 10% is a baseline, or phrased differently, if one is led to give less than 10% then one is being led astray. It also looks like you are using a weird dispensational hermanutic where if something is not explicitly repeated then it is no longer binding. I do not think this view can be held in view of the entire new testament and how Paul and various others regularly wrote in ways unexplainable outside of assume various part of the Old Testament.

However I addressed 1 Cor 9 because I do not believe that one can avoid its force regardless of what hermanutic one uses.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
As for 1 Cor 9, Paul says God commands that those who preach the gospel live by the gospel. He does not say then that the church is required to give 10% to support the pastor. He is saying that the church, in its giving as he has laid it out, should give to support the ministry of the gospel. No percentage. He is giving instructions for how to use what has been and wil be given. In other words, he says that while he has a right to be supported by the church, he is not using that right! But for other ministers that do use the right, then the church should know that part of what they doi give to the Lord should support the ministers in their church.
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

Paul does not just command that those who preach the Gospel to live by the gospel, he justifies it by refering to the levitical priesthood and how things operated under it. He then says in v. 14, that in the same way, those who preach the gospel were to live by the gospel. When he said the same way, how can it switch from being a requirement of 10% to a voluntary any amount?


[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
Again, it is not a percentage. And no one is saying don't give. What we are saying is that the Old Testament tithe is not God's plan for giving in the church. He has not decreed a percentage by law. 
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

He does not need to decree a percentage because the percentage carries over from previously.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money. 2 Cor in clear that we cannot rightly give anything to God until we have first given ourselves completely to Him! (2 Cor 8:5)
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I actually would not have a problem with this. However farmers would not be tithing every week because, they dont get paid every week (or finish growing something every week) do they?

And who said anything about not giving fully of ourselves to God? The issue is can you rightfully say that you are giving of yourself fully and reject tithing?

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
It is a matter of generosity, not obligation!

Second Corinthians 8 and 9 give us some of the most detailed instructions concernging giving from the NT, and Paul never uses the word tithe or refers to a percentage.

Phillip [/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I think that when Paul refers to his right to payment being based in the Levitical right to the tithe, and then says in the same way, that ministers are to live by the Gospel, one has to close their eyes not to see a 10% requirement.

Hermonta


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## kceaster (Mar 17, 2004)

*All...*

I think it is offensive to the Scriptures to look at this only from the NT perspective. Thus, Phillip's explanation starts out. I do not disagree with much of what you say, Phillip. But you seem to be advocating a view that is lax because you do not want to be legalistic. However, we don't want to fall into the other ditch, antinomian.

There is nothing in Scripture that speaks against the tithe nor show that it is no longer in effect as a principle.

I will write no more about this, but will leave you all with one last comment. Give what you think is right and ask God for more grace so that you may give more. Giving your offering does not mean that God will bless you with more. It is not a magic formula. But if you ask God for more, yet you are not generous in your giving, would you answer your prayer? I don't believe God will.

In Christ,

KC


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## Saiph (Mar 17, 2004)

Tithe has always been, and always will be 100%.

Pray without ceasing.

Whatever you do in thought word or deed, do it as unto the Lord.

We are stewards of HIS resources.

Nothing is ours.


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## dkicklig (Mar 17, 2004)

I can't add much more to what's already been said but here 's my :wr50:

1. Tithing, offering, giving whatever we call it is a matter of the heart. If you can't give of a joyful heart it is better not to give at all. &quot;Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor 9:7) &quot;

2. We give of the fruit of our labour, which for all of us is probably cash money. Now if you are a farmer who lives off your harvest maybe you should give a portion of those fruits to the church for the welfare of the covenant community.


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## dswatts (Mar 17, 2004)

[b:9e92c56b07]Mark[/b:9e92c56b07] :thumbup:

I think you are right on, brother.

I'm sure that makes you feel good! 
:bigsmile:

Grace,
Dwayne:saint:


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 17, 2004)

[quote:11eee5a972][i:11eee5a972]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:11eee5a972]
Well put, Pastorway.

Scott: In answer to your question: No, I don't believe it was 'monetary' as we consider the notion, and I think the context of Malachi 3 bears that out. That said, of course, this was a barter system of economics, so crops and animals were the 'currency' of the day, so in that sense, it was monetary. How's that for a yes and no answer? 
Grace, 
Dwayne [/quote:11eee5a972]

Dwayne, 
Thats not necessarily true. Israel had money to exchange...........In fact, the Jew who had to travel a long distance, more than a days journey was told to sell their wares and exchange it for monetary units and upon arriving at Jerusalem, exchange it back again to product.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 17, 2004)

[quote:3cfd732816][i:3cfd732816]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:3cfd732816]
Deut 14:24-25 &quot;But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.&quot;

In Christ,

KC [/quote:3cfd732816]

Kev,
Here is the passage in context:

Deu 14:22 Tithing you shall tithe all the increase of your seed that the field yields year by year. 
Deu 14:23 And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock; that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God all your days. 
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you cannot carry it, because the place is too far from you which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God shall bless you; 
Deu 14:25 Then you shall give it for silver, and bind up the silver in your hand. And you shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose. 
Deu 14:26 And you shall pay the silver for whatever your soul desires, [b:3cfd732816]for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for fermented drink, or for whatever your soul desires. [/b:3cfd732816]And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 
Deu 14:27 And you shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no portion nor inheritance with you. 
Deu 14:28 At the end of three years, even the same year, you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase, and shall lay it up within your gates. 
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the alien, and the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates shall come and shall eat and be satisfied; so that Jehovah your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do. 


The moneys were to be exchanged back to product........


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## kceaster (Mar 17, 2004)

*Scott...*

Good point.

However, how are we to take what Abraham gave to Melchizidek? Assuming he had money, would he withhold from him what he had? Not to mention that the offering box used for alms and offerings in Jesus day would not have held doves and lambs.

I think there is latitude for exchanging money. If they didn't have an animal for a tithe, they would certainly have to buy one.

In Christ,

KC


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## Scott Bushey (May 7, 2006)

Happy Lords day,


A recent discussion on the Puritan Board has prompted me to reexamine the present day emphasis on tithing. 

It seems obvious to me that the one of the beginning treatments must be to address different types of biblical giving. I see in early writings that there was 'offerings'. 

Genesis 4:3-5 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

4503 hx'n>mi minchah {min-khaw'} 
Meaning: 1) gift, tribute, offering, present, oblation, sacrifice, meat offering 1a) gift, present 1b) tribute 1c) offering (to God) 1d) grain offering 
Origin: from an unused root meaning to apportion, i.e. bestow; TWOT - 1214a; n f
Usage: AV - offering 164, present 28, gift 7, oblation 6, sacrifice 5, meat 1; 211

These 'offerings' are different than tithes. 

There is Melchezidek, who was a priest; he gave tithes:

4643 rfe[]m; ma`aser {mah-as-ayr'} or rf;[]m; ma`asar {mah-as-ar'} and (in pl.) fem. ma`asrah {mah-as-raw'} 
Meaning: 1) tithe, tenth part 1a) tenth part 1b) tithe, payment of a tenth part 
Origin: from 06240; TWOT - 1711h; n m
Usage: AV - tithe 27, tenth part 2, tenth 2, tithing 1; 32

Genesis 14:18-20 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. 

Then there is the command in regards to the Levite priests:

Numbers 18:20-24 0 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel. 21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. 22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. 23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. 24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. 

The tithe was to support the priest whom had no inheritance.

Moving further ahead, we have now a high priest, according to the order of Melchezidek; who reigns forever. Surely a priest is worthy of tithes. Does Christ eat or need support? His inheritance is:

Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. {again...: or, when he bringeth again} 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and
his ministers a flame of fire. {And of: Gr. And unto} 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness} 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? 

Christs atonement was sufficient:

Hebrews 10:10 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

Are we not all priests?

Revelation 1:5-6 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 

Has not the physical temple where the Levites worked destroyed? Are we not the temple now?

1 Corinthians 3:16 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwellet

It has been posed that the NT does not mention the tithe; my response to this treatment is that it is poor hermenuetics and dispensational at best. However, after looking at a passage in Acts, it seems obvious that the Apostles were not holding to the idea:

Acts 5:1-4 KJV Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? {to lie to: or, to deceive} 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 

As well, as expressed earlier in this thread, was the tithe ever monitary?

So, my question is, if we are priests, if Christ is high and lifted up, a priest forever according to the order of Melchezidek, not needing Earthly provision and support as the former priests that die and in need of physical sustanence, the temple destroyed and we now temples of the HS, one that cannot be destroyed, how can we be under this mandate to tithe if Christ does not need inheritance nor support? Am I missing something here?

Reactions: Like 1


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## gwine (May 7, 2006)

Those that minister to us are still worthy of their labor and Paul does tell us to support them, even though he did not press the issue for himself. And they are part of the body of Christ. Should we not want to give to support this part of the Church? 

But I guess I still don't know whether to call it a tithe.


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