# Worship Funk



## Civbert (Jul 23, 2007)

Is this pleasing to the Lord?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUD1CBbUKcM


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 23, 2007)

Not in public worship.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 23, 2007)

Potentially...

Psalm 98

3He has remembered his steadfast love and faithfulness
to the house of Israel.
All the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation of our God.
...

6With trumpets and the sound of the horn
make a joyful noise before the King, the LORD!


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## Staphlobob (Jul 23, 2007)

Reminds me of an old "Jazz Mass" that was foisted upon me when I was in Roman seminary back in the '80s. I'd prefer EP to this.

But is it biblical? Well, Ps 98 DOES talk of noise, joyful though it may be. However, if this constitutes a way of glorifying God then the noise given through relief from constipation might do the same.


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## Poimen (Jul 23, 2007)

If, as Patrick implied, this is done in public worship, one would have to ask the question: is this another element of worship? I hear no singing so what purpose do these instruments now play in NT praise? Do they facilitate the singing of the congregation or to praise God independently of the voices of the faithful? (cf. Colossians 3:16-17; Ephesians 5:18-19).


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## Davidius (Jul 23, 2007)

Poimen said:


> If, as Patrick implied, this is done in public worship, one would have to ask the question: is this another element of worship? I hear no singing so what purpose do these instruments now play in NT praise? Do they facilitate the singing of the congregation or to praise God independently of the voices of the faithful? (cf. Colossians 3:16-17; Ephesians 5:18-19).



There are lyrics on the wall and this is a well-known contemporary "praise song" so perhaps they're just practicing right now. 

And for my :

I've said this in other threads but I don't see how anyone who isn't an Exclusive Psalmodist and/or believes that instruments were part of the ceremonial law can object to the use of different styles of music in worship. Any argument for the solitary organ or piano over a jazz band boils down to subjectivity, one's own tastes.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 23, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> There are lyrics on the wall and this is a well-known contemporary "praise song" so perhaps they're just practicing right now.
> 
> And for my :
> 
> I've said this in other threads but I don't see how anyone who isn't an Exclusive Psalmodist and/or believes that instruments were part of the ceremonial law can object to the use of different styles of music in worship. Any argument for the solitary organ or piano over a jazz band boils down to subjectivity, one's own tastes.



just curious - what stops an EPer from utilizing different musical styles in psalmody?


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## Davidius (Jul 23, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> just curious - what stops an EPer from utilizing different musical styles in psalmody?



I'm sorry, I don't think I clarified my meaning well enough in my first reply. What I meant was, if you're not an EPer then the preference for "There is a Fountain Filled with Blood" over and against "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" becomes very subjective. If you allow the use of instruments, then jazz over organ would also be merely the result of personal preference. Now, if someone held to EP but allowed the use of instruments, then I would say that your question is quite pertinent and would apply to him just as much as to the non-EPer. But anyway, I don't want to get into a discussion of EP; I just wanted to answer Anthony's question by saying I don't think anyone has the right to reject such a form of public worship as being displeasing to God if their application of the RPW allows for instruments and composition other than those in the Book of Psalms. Having read your own reply I must say that your practice would be consistent with your theology in this area.

So I'll stop using so many words and be more straightforward by siding with those who have said that it is not pleasing to God in public worship.


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## bookslover (Jul 23, 2007)

If this is a public worship service on the Lord's Day, then I would have to say "no" - it is not pleasing to God, primarily because there is no factual or intellectual content being expressed in a worshipful way. I have no objection to the instruments being used but, if no one is singing (and I didn't hear anyone), then the focus is on the instrumentalists, not on the Lord.

So: no.


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## nicnap (Jul 23, 2007)

No, not in public worship. But as a sax player, I say, "Man that cat can blow."


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## Greg (Jul 23, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Not in public worship.





Not to say that this couldn't be appreciated in other contexts and in other venues, after all, God is the giver of all good gifts and talents. But for corporate public worship on the Lord's day? No. As Richard stated, the natural tendency of man will be to focus on the instrumentalist, even if only for that moment of time, and not exclusively on the Lord.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 23, 2007)

Even if you don't argue for it from an elements of Worship standpoint, I think it clearly falls into the category of being ostentatious (drawing attention to oneself) which is condemned in Paul's Epistles. The specific admonition he gives is to women drawinig attention to themselves but the issue is still the same.


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## KMK (Jul 24, 2007)

The University of Miami just churns out those Brecker Brothers wannabes and they all sound the same. I have to admit, it reminds me of 'Hooked On Bach'. I've never been a fan of 'novelty fusion'. (I just coined that phrase myself. Feel free to use it.)


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## Augusta (Jul 24, 2007)

Strange fire.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 24, 2007)

Great as a Jazz Coffeehouse night...even as a "Christian" jazz coffeehouse night... completely inappropriate if it's a worship service. This isn't any different, really, than you'd find at Redeemer PCA in Manhattan every Sunday in their "Jazz" service... not to knock jazz in particular, either (of which I have great appreciation), because their "Classical" services aren't any more appropriate.


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## jbergsing (Jul 24, 2007)

Civbert said:


> Is this pleasing to the Lord?


If this is in public worship, then I don't believe it is pleasing to God. Out side of worship, although I'm not a big jazz fan, it beats most of the stuff I hear on the FM (or XM) dial.


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## govols (Jul 24, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> Reminds me of an old "Jazz Mass" that was foisted upon me when I was in Roman seminary back in the '80s. I'd prefer EP to this.
> 
> But is it biblical? Well, Ps 98 DOES talk of noise, joyful though it may be. However, if this constitutes a way of glorifying God then the noise given through relief from constipation might do the same.




Now, now - that noise is MOST pleasing to the person constipated!


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## BobVigneault (Jul 24, 2007)

For public worship? - NO.
For entertainment/recreation? - Yes.
Would Rick Founds be pleased? Don't know, I wouldn't be.


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## christiana (Jul 24, 2007)

Well, whatever happened to '
"whatsoever you do, in word or deed, do *all* to the glory of God?"


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## Civbert (Jul 24, 2007)

So is instrumental music during public worship (without singing) displeasing to God? (This question does not imply my position...since I am undecided  .)


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## tellville (Jul 24, 2007)

Occasionally at our church we have a time called "special music" or something like that. It is given for those who want to demonstrate the talents that God has given them. They put in the time and effort so as to give a musical offering of praise to the Lord. I would imagine that this is an example of that. 

I see nothing wrong with giving a musical offering to the Lord, nor do I think it is anti-Biblical. 

As for the type of music chosen, I've never seen anything other than hymns and classical music ever chosen for "special music", and usually it is a piano player who performs, though we have had flute, clarinet, and a trumpet player before. 

Occasionally our worship band will perform a song not intended to be sung by the congregation but rather to be reflected on by the congregation as they play. 

I think lyrics and intent play a big role in it.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 24, 2007)

christiana said:


> Well, whatever happened to '
> "whatsoever you do, in word or deed, do *all* to the glory of God?"



Would it be appropriate for a person to get up in church
and offer a rendition of Psalm 23 played on his armpit? That
armpit trumpeter may very well be VERY sincere in his desire
to glorify God.

Clearly that verse does not imply that "anything goes" in worship,
so long as the person doing it is doing it for the glory of God. We have 
to do a bit more thinking when it comes to deciding what is appropriate
in public worship than simply rely on a single verse taken out of context
and applying it however we like.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 24, 2007)

Civbert said:


> So is instrumental music during public worship (without singing) displeasing to God? (This question does not imply my position...since I am undecided  .)




It all depends if you believe the instructions of the Psalms are normative for worship.


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## Civbert (Jul 24, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Would it be appropriate for a person to get up in church and offer a rendition of Psalm 23 played on his armpit? That
> armpit trumpeter may very well be VERY sincere in his desire
> to glorify God.
> 
> ...


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## bookslover (Jul 24, 2007)

Civbert said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > Would it be appropriate for a person to get up in church and offer a rendition of Psalm 23 played on his armpit? That
> ...


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## toddpedlar (Jul 24, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Civbert said:
> 
> 
> > toddpedlar said:
> ...


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## Robert Truelove (Jul 25, 2007)

Well here is something I have not considered. We use a piano with no singing for instance when the offering is taken up.

How would one defend this biblically? And just to get the question going...I know Psalm 150 but the even instruments mentioned are in the context of a song being sung.

thoughts?



Civbert said:


> So is instrumental music during public worship (without singing) displeasing to God? (This question does not imply my position...since I am undecided  .)


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jul 25, 2007)

Has anyone else noticed besides me that the ratio of 33% "yes" to 67% "no" has been very consistent the whole time this poll has been up?

Anyone care to draw a conclusion from this?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 25, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> It all depends if you believe the instructions of the Psalms are normative for worship.



Then you have to decide how normative. The specific intruments listed there? Or instruments in general, and why? 

I just can't imagine Isaiah gettin' jiggy with it when the angels shout around him "holy, holy, holy."


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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Would it be appropriate for a person to get up in church
> and offer a rendition of Psalm 23 played on his armpit? That
> armpit trumpeter may very well be VERY sincere in his desire
> to glorify God.



I laughed so hard I cleared my sinuses! But seriously, I don't see how this is different from a major conservative presbyterian church in the country doing a violin solo. But I voted no.

or maybe, since violin did have words, if we sang along to this it would be pleasing.


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## Nse007 (Jul 25, 2007)

No...but that dude rocks.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 25, 2007)

prespastor said:


> Well here is something I have not considered. We use a piano with no singing for instance when the offering is taken up.
> 
> How would one defend this biblically? And just to get the question going...I know Psalm 150 but the even instruments mentioned are in the context of a song being sung.
> 
> thoughts?



Good question. That hits a little too close to home.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 25, 2007)

prespastor said:


> Well here is something I have not considered. We use a piano with no singing for instance when the offering is taken up.



I personally don't like it. The offering is an act of worship in it's own right. I think the reason people do it is because they are uncomfortable with silence, which should not be the case in the presence of God. They do music sometimes when the elements are distributed for the Lord's Supper too. It's unneccesary and I think distracting.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 25, 2007)

Wythe County Calvinist said:


> Has anyone else noticed besides me that the ratio of 33% "yes" to 67% "no" has been very consistent the whole time this poll has been up?
> 
> Anyone care to draw a conclusion from this?


I just now voted to mess everything up.


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## x.spasitel (Jul 25, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> just curious - what stops an EPer from utilizing different musical styles in psalmody?




Nothing really...tastes may vary but no EP-er would really say there was something sinful in arranging the Psalms to a reggae beat. A capella, of course.

It always amuses me when people get aroused in righteous indignation against guitars and drums but are perfectly happy in an equally blasphemous piano or organ.


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## Coram Deo (Jul 25, 2007)

Tim,

Just a side note, I would say it would be sinful, but maybe that is a discussion for another time..... Tell your family I said Hi since we missed everyone last Sunday...

Michael



x.spasitel said:


> tastes may vary but no EP-er would really say there was something sinful in arranging the Psalms to a reggae beat.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 25, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Then you have to decide how normative. The specific intruments listed there? Or instruments in general, and why?
> 
> I just can't imagine Isaiah gettin' jiggy with it when the angels shout around him "holy, holy, holy."



1. "jiggy" is highly subjective

2. normative to the degree that God can be glorified by _any_ of our worship


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## BlackCalvinist (Jul 26, 2007)

A. Tim - I live right off of Rogers Ave. and Rt. 40 near Safeway. Where's your church ?

B. As a sax player myself (and band director and arranger/composer).... very nicely done. Appropriate for other programs where church folk are gathered, coffeehouse music and a few more things..... but not Sunday morning. Sunday morning is about the congregation - so the music is not even supposed to be THAT prominent that it takes up being anywhere near CLOSE to the center of the action, so to speak. And the solo..... great from a musicians' perspective, out of place from a theologian's perspective.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 26, 2007)

Curious - What would ya'll think of this prior to worship - that is - as a special prelude to worship?

...or should it not be played on a Sunday at all?


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## x.spasitel (Jul 26, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Tim,
> 
> Just a side note, I would say it would be sinful, but maybe that is a discussion for another time..... Tell your family I said Hi since we missed everyone last Sunday...
> 
> Michael



I would be interested as to some reasons why...I've always understood it that as long as one is singing the Psalms a capella, in congregational unity with a good translation, any variety in musical style is 'adiaphora'. I would think this especially true if we were outside the USA...I would of course oppose an effort to make our Psalter into a new and modern beat, because I think that would be detrimental both to our witness and our worship, but if, say, we are making a Psalter in a place like Sudan or Uganda, or Jamaica or Suriname or India or Inner Mongolia, it is not necessary to make the congregants hold to a Western musical tradition -- as long as it is done unaccompanied, it would seem that they could use whatever music they want.

On the other hand, it was the insistence of the Japanese pastors in our churches there that the tunes used in our Psalter be the same ones used for theirs -- not for any desire of traditionalism, but because apparently all the traditional music in Japan is either temple music or associated with temple music, and they didn't want to have anything to do with that.

So I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts, Mr. Daniels -- and if any think we're straying beyond the subject, feel free to yell at me and we can take it private...


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## Coram Deo (Jul 26, 2007)

Tim, This topic has been hashed out already with much heat on both sides of the issue. For me and my family aleast we hold to moralness of musical tune and how it is composed. We do not hold that music is amoral. I am not refering to the lyric right now though that would also apply. Many of Reformed pastors and theologians have also written on this issue. Whether the tune is used in worship or whether the tune is used for secular purpose how the music is written and composed matters greatly. I would be happy to discuss it further with you offline and direct you to some source material if you wish to study the issue out. I just do not have the strength right now to debate this topic yet again on the puritanboard...

This is also why the new psalter committee for the rpcna has my attention right now. It would concern me greatly if modern ccm tunality would be replacing the grand beautiful music that has been composed by minds that know what good music is and how to compose music that glorifies God and music that has stood the test of time.

Michael




x.spasitel said:


> I would be interested as to some reasons why...I've always understood it that as long as one is singing the Psalms a capella, in congregational unity with a good translation, any variety in musical style is 'adiaphora'. I would think this especially true if we were outside the USA...I would of course oppose an effort to make our Psalter into a new and modern beat, because I think that would be detrimental both to our witness and our worship, but if, say, we are making a Psalter in a place like Sudan or Uganda, or Jamaica or Suriname or India or Inner Mongolia, it is not necessary to make the congregants hold to a Western musical tradition -- as long as it is done unaccompanied, it would seem that they could use whatever music they want.
> 
> On the other hand, it was the insistence of the Japanese pastors in our churches there that the tunes used in our Psalter be the same ones used for theirs -- not for any desire of traditionalism, but because apparently all the traditional music in Japan is either temple music or associated with temple music, and they didn't want to have anything to do with that.
> 
> So I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts, Mr. Daniels -- and if any think we're straying beyond the subject, feel free to yell at me and we can take it private...


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## Davidius (Jul 26, 2007)

Because music with the beat on 2 and 4 is "sensual." 

...

...


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## RamistThomist (Jul 26, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Because music with the beat on 2 and 4 is "sensual."
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Really? What's that mean? What are some examples? I am not too smart on music.


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Jul 26, 2007)

prespastor said:


> I know Psalm 150 but the even instruments mentioned are in the context of a song being sung.



And don't forget the dancing!


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## x.spasitel (Jul 26, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Tim, This topic has been hashed out already with much heat on both sides of the issue. For me and my family aleast we hold to moralness of musical tune and how it is composed. We do not hold that music is amoral. I am not refering to the lyric right now though that would also apply. Many of Reformed pastors and theologians have also written on this issue. Whether the tune is used in worship or whether the tune is used for secular purpose how the music is written and composed matters greatly. I would be happy to discuss it further with you offline and direct you to some source material if you wish to study the issue out. I just do not have the strength right now to debate this topic yet again on the puritanboard...
> 
> This is also why the new psalter committee for the rpcna has my attention right now. It would concern me greatly if modern ccm tunality would be replacing the grand beautiful music that has been composed by minds that know what good music is and how to compose music that glorifies God and music that has stood the test of time.
> 
> Michael



Has this already been discussed on the PuritanBoard? If so, can you direct me to a link? If not, I'll see you on Sunday...or some Sunday...and we can talk directly.

I will make a closing and clarifying note -- I consider most of the Psalms we have in our current Psalter to be grand and beautiful music, good music that glorifies God and has stood the test of time. I would be devastated if it was all replaced with modern schlock, and think it a very dumb move. But I wouldn't think it a sin, as long as a cappella is preserved.

As an example. The new Psalter that the RPCNA Synod is producing has the final two verses of Psalm 72 arranged to a South African folk song. I don't like it. I don't like it because it's hard to sing; I don't like it because I oppose Psalm fragments, especially ones that small; I don't like it because it is a very loose translation; I don't like it because different voice parts sing different words, putting the sound above heartfelt worship; I don't like it because it has an 'Amen' chorus -- I'm sure I could come up with more reasons why I don't think it should be there. But the fact that it is a South African folk song is not one of them. If they could find a South African folk song that was easy to sing, that was accurately translated, that had the whole Psalm (even a good half or third) set to it, that did not tend towards setting music above worship, etc. etc. I would be raising no objections to it.

That rather turned out longer than I wanted it to


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## ServantOfKing (Jul 28, 2007)

If the question is, "Is this pleasing to the Lord?" then it may be difficult for us to know. We don't know the hearts of those playing the instruments. Worship that is a "proper style" still may be unpleasing to the Lord if the hearts of those worshipping are not genuine.


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