# Yet another seminary thread



## zsmcd (Oct 23, 2015)

I plan on attending seminary (MDiv) using my GI Bill after I am done serving in the Navy. I have been on the fence concerning infant baptism and ecclesiology for almost a year now and am currently a member of a calvinistic Southern Baptist church. I have been discerning a call to pastoral ministry for a few years now and have had it confirmed by a number of different elders/pastors (PCA and SBC). My trajectory is to pastor a church somewhere in the "bible belt" where I believe there is an enormous need for healthy churches. With that said I am struggling on where to attend seminary and would love some feedback...taking into account my background. 

- Because I am using the GI Bill I am not entirely concerned about price.
- I am looking to attend somewhere in the south east near family (Tampa, FL & Charleston, SC)
- My suspicion is that if I attend a Baptist school I will end up a Baptist....if I attend a Presbyterian school....well, you get it.
- I do have a family...will probably have two kids by the time I attend.
- I have a strong desire to study languages and would not mind rigorous course work. (in fact prefer it)
- I would like the school to be accredited so that if I wish, I could carry on my education to a further degree.

My current top three are as follows:

*1 RTS Orlando*
- close to home (in between SC and Tampa)
- Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies but also confessionally reformed 
- would be able to be influenced by both sides of the Baptist/Presbyterian debate
- not entirely to rigorous, or so I have heard
- family "campus" housing

*2 Greenville PTS*
- close to Charleston
- rigorous coursework (four year MDiv)
- not accredited (con)
- would most definitely end up a Presbyterian
- no campus housing?
- great price
- GI bill only pays for three years of school (would have to pay for fourth year)

*3 Southern Seminary*
- not close to home
- will probably end up a Baptist
- campus housing
- great professors
- broader evangelical studies/professors
- lacking in languages?


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Greenville would probably give you the fewest options post-seminary. As an unabashedly conservative institution, it would probably limit calls within the PCA, most of which churches are broadly reformed. On the other hand, if you are TR, it would be closest to your convictions. 

Either RTS Orlando or SBTS would give you a greater range of options.


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## zsmcd (Oct 23, 2015)

TR = Truly Reformed?


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## zsmcd (Oct 23, 2015)

Looking into the NIBS now, two great SBTS professors and one CBTS professor teach those courses so SBTS may be pointless. Are there any other seminaries in the Carolinas/Florida/Georgia area that anyone else could suggest? Whitefield is out of the question because they don't accept the GI Bill.


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## Romans922 (Oct 23, 2015)

Edward said:


> Greenville would probably give you the fewest options post-seminary.



Not true. I know many men who have gone and got their PhD from there with no problem. Greenville also is certainly not producing men only who are entering the PCA. Most men who graduate go into the PCA, OPC, RPCNA, ARP, and other denominations internationally, etc. Some even who are baptists attend and graduate from GPTS. 

So basically I completely disagree with your assessment of GPTS, saying that as one who is very close to many faculty and the President of the seminary. Zach if you have questions about GPTS or RTS feel free to PM, I know both institutions quite well being very close to many within both institutions and could also put you into direct contact with higher ups in both institutions.


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## yeutter (Oct 23, 2015)

zachmcdonald said:


> - My suspicion is that if I attend a Baptist school I will end up a Baptist....if I attend a Presbyterian school....well, you get it.


The training of clerics is an ecclesiastical function. You should be under the care of the Elders of your home Church or Presbytery or Classis or Diocese as the case may be. They should be guiding you in selecting a course of study and a school. 

How you understand Baptism and the covenant are important issues, that you should have some clarity on before you go to Seminary. Your understanding may change during seminary but you should approach these Bible doctrines with clarity of mind.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> I know many men who have gone and got their PhD from there with no problem.



A Ph.D. is different from an MDiv. Where did they have their M.Divs. from?




Romans922 said:


> So basically I completely disagree with your assessment of GPTS, saying that as one who is very close to many faculty and the President of the seminary.



Given your leanings, I would take that as helping prove my point, not disproving it. You are certainly not representative of the broadly reformed (BR) majority in the PCA. 



Romans922 said:


> Most men who graduate go into the PCA, OPC, RPCNA, ARP, and other denominations internationally



I certainly respect the RPCNA and their fidelity to their standards, but since I was speaking of opportunities post graduation, and you brought them up, with rounding, it looks like they have about 7000 members in about 100 congregations. There is at least one PCA church with more members than that. A couple of PCA churches combined would hit about 10% of the total number of TEs in that denomination. So I'll stick with my statement that opting for a very conservative seminary will limit opportunities for calls. 

If one is TR, or desired to pastor a very theologically conservative congregation, Greenville would be an excellent choice. But search committees who are not looking for such a man are likely to take the seminary choice into account.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

zachmcdonald said:


> TR = Truly Reformed?



PM to avoid completely derailing the thread.


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## Romans922 (Oct 23, 2015)

Edward said:


> A Ph.D. is different from an MDiv. Where did they have their M.Divs. from?



They got it from GPTS, that's what we are talking about...going to seminary --> MDiv. And going to seminary there and getting their MDiv did not hurt them going on somewhere else and getting a PhD (I'm sorry if that wasn't clear). It also hasn't hurt them if they desired to find a call in the denomination of their choice, in finding a call even baptists have graduated and found good churches to pastor.



Edward said:


> You are certainly not representative of the broadly reformed (BR) majority in the PCA.



I praise the Lord every day I am confessional and faithful to my vows by His mercy.





Edward said:


> I certainly respect the RPCNA and their fidelity to their standards, but since I was speaking of opportunities post graduation, and you brought them up, with rounding, it looks like they have about 7000 members in about 100 congregations. There is at least one PCA church with more members than that. A couple of PCA churches combined would hit about 10% of the total number of TEs in that denomination. So I'll stick with my statement that opting for a very conservative seminary will limit opportunities for calls.



This makes absolutely no sense, it is like you skipped entirely what I said. I did not say that GPTS produces men that only go into the RPCNA. You begin talking about numbers and the PCA, and I clearly said that many men from GPTS go into the PCA. However, as I said, they also go into other denominations. I've never seen a GPTS student who desired to enter the PCA be held from entering.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 23, 2015)

SBTS, and many other Southern Baptist seminaries have online MDivs. That could be a good option if you want to be umder ypur elders.
If I may recommend one to look into would Cummins Memorial Seminary affiliated with the Reformed Episcopal Church. Yes, I know they are leaning more Anglican high church. However, they accept credits from TNARS. Jol Mcdurmon from American Vision got his MDiv from another REC seminary and he's quite Presbyterian. I have heard (which is why you should check it out), that they still use Calvin, Turretin and Hodge for their theology classes. For suggesting this I am sure I will get shot out the sky and torn to shreds.
It depends on what you want to do or try to get a call to a far a way Presbytery or possibly go even broader.


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## Bill The Baptist (Oct 23, 2015)

I would also recommend Southeastern Seminary in North Carolina. It is not as openly reformed as Southern Seminary, but it is very reformed friendly and there are many Calvinist professors.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> They got it from GPTS, that's what we are talking about...going to seminary --> MDiv.





Romans922 said:


> I know many men who have gone and got their PhD from there with no problem.



Well, perhaps I need more caffeine this afternoon, but I can't reconcile these two statements. 



Romans922 said:


> I've never seen a GPTS student who desired to enter the PCA be held from entering.



How many at a Briarwood? Redeemer? Perimeter? Park Cities? The church planting networks? 

How many calls are there out there for strict subscriptionists in the PCA? A hundred or two hundred, including those currently held?


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## Romans922 (Oct 23, 2015)

Edward said:


> Well, perhaps I need more caffeine this afternoon, but I can't reconcile these two statements.



In my second post, I apologized because I knew I was unclear and clarified it (reposted directly below).



Romans922 said:


> They got it from GPTS, that's what we are talking about...going to seminary --> MDiv. And going to seminary there and getting their MDiv did not hurt them going on somewhere else and getting a PhD (*I'm sorry if that wasn't clear*). It also hasn't hurt them if they desired to find a call in the denomination of their choice, in finding a call even baptists have graduated and found good churches to pastor.






Edward said:


> How many at a Briarwood? Redeemer? Perimeter? Park Cities? The church planting networks?
> 
> How many calls are there out there for strict subscriptionists in the PCA? A hundred or two hundred, including those currently held?



Your post puzzles me. Do you think the center of the reformed presbyterian or 'reformed baptist' (for our brother's sake here) world on earth is the PCA? Perhaps you need to get out of your mega-church-centric cloud and come back to earth.

How likely is it, without a previous close relationship to one of those mega-churches, for any seminary student to be called to them? Quite frankly, the students who graduate from GPTS (and generally speaking RTS) desire to be Pastors. Pastors who preach. How likely is it for someone right of seminary who is called to one of those mega-churches to be 'allowed' to preach? Probably close to 0%. And how many of them will be able to preach almost every Lord's Day? Absolutely 0%. Men who want to Pastor and preach don't want to be called to those churches. GPTS educates Pastors who desire to preach the word and shepherd the people God places under them. Size doesn't matter friend. Most seminary students will not be called to large churches, they will be called to small churches. That's if you graduate from RTS, CTS, WTS, WSC, GPTS, or wherever. Most students who graduate from seminary seeking to pastors will pastor in small churches and maybe a church with one other Pastor. So your question is actually odd and puzzling.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 23, 2015)

Zach, if you have a biblical view of the Lord's Day (WCF 21; LBC 22) you will want to go to a seminary that strongly supports rather than undermines that, so you stay faithful to that belief, rather than have your faith undermined.


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## Covenant Joel (Oct 23, 2015)

Can you use the GI Bill to attend an unaccredited seminary? I would find that surprising, and if you can't, then GPTS is potentially off of your list out of financial necessity. 

RTS-Charlotte would still stay on the East Coast, not that far from Charleston (I know that's relative, but closer than WTS or others). The few classes I had with profs from there were very good. It might be worth looking into.

I also attended RTS-O for one year. It's largely what you make of it. There were professors there that were not particularly confessional for sure. There are some that are. A lot of your experience will depend on where you worship during that time (and thus which elders you are under the care of).


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## N. Eshelman (Oct 23, 2015)

My two cents: 

Don't be a free agent. 
Get under the care of a session of elders and/or a presbytery and let them guide you. 
The church has enough men who put themselves forward for ministry. 
It's a dangerous place to be. 


Figure out who you are theologically before you even consider ministry.


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## ZackF (Oct 23, 2015)

N. Eshelman said:


> My two cents:
> 
> Don't be a free agent.
> Get under the care of a session of elders and/or a presbytery and let them guide you.
> ...



I was hoping someone would say this as I was worried about this fellow being blow about by winds of doctrine. Not being a pastor I didn't think it was my place.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> Do you think the center of the reformed presbyterian or 'reformed baptist' (for our brother's sake here) world on earth is the PCA?



Based on numbers, yes. Others can provide more precise numbers, if they wish, but some quick round numbers - 

PCA - approximately 350,000 members in approximately 1800 congregations and approximately 4500 TEs.

OPC - approximately 31,000 members in approximately 275 congregations and approximately 535 TEs.

RPCNA - approximately 6500 members in approximately 100 congregations and approximately 151 TEs

ARP - approximately 40,000 members in approximately 300 congregations (I skimmed the synod minutes but didn't spot the number of preachers)

So while numbers are certainly not a determinate of quality, I would say that the PCA is the center of the reformed presbyterian universe in this country. 

As an aside, and looking at the numbers above, I'd conclude that the PCA, OPC and ARP each have roughly equal numbers of conservative congregations.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> How likely is it, without a previous close relationship to one of those mega-churches, for any seminary student to be called to them?



I can only speak as to one, where my recollection is that 2 out of 12 had prior ties to the church or community. Four others were promoted from within while working there in other jobs.


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## Romans922 (Oct 23, 2015)

Edward said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > How likely is it, without a previous close relationship to one of those mega-churches, for any seminary student to be called to them?
> ...



So that's 6 of 12. I'd assume the other 6 were not right out of seminary but were pastors somewhere else first.


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## Edward (Oct 23, 2015)

Romans922 said:


> So that's 6 of 12.



No, that's two out of 12. Although in reviewing bios, make that 3, not 2 out of 12. 



Romans922 said:


> I'd assume the other 6 were not right out of seminary but were pastors somewhere else first.



You would be wrong in your assumption.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 24, 2015)

Let's get back on topic.


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## Andres (Oct 24, 2015)

N. Eshelman said:


> Figure out who you are theologically before you even consider ministry.



This. You're not ready for seminary and def not ready for ministry if you don't know what you believe yet and why. Please don't take this as a slight against you - we were all in your position at some point. Please don't rush ministry - it will only do damage to yourself and those you are ministering to.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 24, 2015)

Andres said:


> N. Eshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Figure out who you are theologically before you even consider ministry.
> ...



Sort of on topic. I was talking with someone in Denver Seminary who said he has no idea what justification is now after he read Justification Reconsidered. This despite the fact that the book is a polemical work against the NPP.
So, I guess it is a way of backing up what is said above.


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## zsmcd (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks for all the helpful comments everyone. I have considered SEBTS for the cost and location, although their MDiv curriculum doesn't excite me as much as RTS and Greenville. Still on the table however. 

As to figuring out "what I believe". I am pretty solidly grounded in my beliefs right now, I just know that three years of studying theology and the bible under specific teachers will have a huge impact. Great advice though and very encouraging. I plan on diving deeper into the Scriptures and other materials to continue to nail down what I believe considering polity and baptism.

I am also taking a look at RTS DC now. Does anyone have any insight on the professors/curriculum/etc.? I live in DC now, so it would be great to not have to move and stay in my current congregation and continue to be lead/mentored by my current elders. My only worry is 1. being able to afford living around DC and 2. the quality of the education. Thanks all!


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## TheInquirer (Nov 3, 2015)

> This. You're not ready for seminary and def not ready for ministry if you don't know what you believe yet and why.



I have to respectfully disagree. At seminary, you will be exposed to views and writings beyond what you have probably experienced to date. Expecting a guy to have all his i's dotted and t's crossed before seminary is unrealistic in my opinion. Yes, you will have to have those issues worked out before going into the ministry full time so you can lead your church. But seminary is an opportunity to deepen, and perhaps even challenge, some of your views.

I am currently within the Reformed Baptist sphere theologically and a student at RTS Global. Reading Calvin's, and others', views on baptism and the Lord's Supper strengthened my Baptist convictions. I was glad to have heard views from the source rather than hearing them through a filter.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 3, 2015)

TheInquirer said:


> > This. You're not ready for seminary and def not ready for ministry if you don't know what you believe yet and why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depends upon where you go.
If you go to a cafeteria seminary that the very wise McFadden brings up, that will make you very confused.


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