# Health and Wealth gospel



## Ianterrell (May 7, 2004)

Heard an interesting bit of teaching from Gloria Copeland this morning. She claimed:

!)That God has redeemed our finances.

2)He has promised financial and emotional prosperity to Christians

3)When we understand who we are to be as Christians and the power we have we will no longer have sickness, sadness, or depression. 


 - this is such a terrible deception. I've heard Benny Hinn preach this same heresy. They seem to have a better grasp on the normal Christian life than Paul the apostle! Where do these ideas come from?


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

&quot;For you will have much suffering in this world, but rejoice. I have overcome the world.&quot;

I am reminded of the &quot;Think &amp; Grow Rich&quot; book by (?) Napoleon Hill (?). So of course, if you don't grown rich, you didn't have enough faith. Pathetic. It reminds me of that cult that everyone in Hollywood seems to belong to. (What's it called? Not Christian Science - although apparently, when people get sick and die, it's because they didn't have anough faith. You know the one I mean - Tom Cruise is involved - &quot;Create your own destiny.&quot; Well, I guess that makes me God, then, doesn't it?

Mary


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## Dan.... (May 7, 2004)

[quote:1981344fab]
Where do these ideas come from?
[/quote:1981344fab]

Ahhhh...the prosperity gospel, arrived at by stripping scripture out of context:

Don't you know that God wants [b:1981344fab][u:1981344fab]you[/u:1981344fab][/b:1981344fab] to be [b:1981344fab]rich[/b:1981344fab] and [b:1981344fab]prosper[/b:1981344fab]? 

Deut 8:18 - But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, 

Eccl 5:19 - Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God. 

Gen 39:2 - And the LORD was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous man
Gen 39:3 -And his master saw that the LORD was with him, and that the LORD made all that he did to prosper in his hand.

Duet 29:9 (1 Kings 2:3) - Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.

Josh 1:7 - turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest. 

Josh 1:8 - This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. 

2 Chon 26:5 - as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper. 

Ps 122:6 - Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.


....Just send me your love offering today and watch your riches grow!!!

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by Dan....]


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## Dan.... (May 7, 2004)

By the way, Apparently Lazarus wasn't familiar with the prosperity gospel. :no:


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

Dan wrote:
[quote:75d281aa6b]
By the way, Apparently Lazarus wasn't familiar with the prosperity gospel.
[/quote:75d281aa6b]



Neither am I. I must be a REALLY BAD CHRISTIAN. Pray for me to win the Lottery! 

Whoa - Hold up - something's coming to me...an old hymn...

Sing it with me now, brothers and sisters:

Oh Lord, won't You buy me a Mercedes-Benz?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends
So Lord, won't You buy me a Mercedes-Benz?

Mary (boy am I snarky!) :bs2:


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## Len (May 7, 2004)

[quote:58111ca284]
(boy am I snarky!) 
[/quote:58111ca284]

Just a notice - I have officially adopted the word &quot;snarky&quot; into my vocabulary. 

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by Len]


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

Len,

With my compliments! I've got a million of 'em!

Mary :bs2:


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## Irishcat922 (May 7, 2004)

What is snarky?


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

Irishcat asks,
[quote:19b20d918b]
What is snarky?
[/quote:19b20d918b]

Weeellll, I don't know that it's a &quot;real&quot; word if you want to get technical about it...but I would define snarky as &quot;a smug kind of mocking.&quot; You know, stick-your-tongue-out-and-roll- your-eyes as you say it, kind of thing. Or, as Grandma would say, &quot;Quit being a smart-aleck!&quot;

Mary


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## wsw201 (May 7, 2004)

Ian,

You need to come down to Fort Worth. You can meet Gloria up close and personal, along with Ken! (assuming you can get near their compound). Also Benny Hinn just moved into this area and Jan and Paul Crouch have a home here so they can be near their main TBN studio over in Irving (it looks like a miniture White House). Plus Bob Tilton is starting up a new scam over in Dallas.


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## mjbee (May 7, 2004)

Mary,you're too young to be a hippie like me...but sing it Janice! &quot;Summertime&quot; is better. 
Bee


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## mjbee (May 7, 2004)

And I can't believe nobody can define snarky. I bet they can't define skanky, either.


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## alwaysreforming (May 7, 2004)

This &quot;Prosperity Gospel&quot; makes me sick. That guy Frederick Price once said, &quot;The reason I wear designer clothes and drive a Rolls Royce is because I WANT TO BE LIKE Jesus!!!&quot;

I think he was saying that Jesus had the most expensive of everything, in fact that's why they &quot;cast lots for His clothes,&quot; because it was of such high quality and cost!

Its a shame that the lost see these people on TV and then think that they represent Christianity! What I don't get is that the average &quot;non-Christian&quot; can tell after two minutes that these people are full of malarky, and then our same evangelical brothers and sisters can be big fans of them. This just baffles my mind! 

Where is discernment? Where is wisdom? Where is even plain common sense? The only thing I can come up with is: &quot;...but by the grace of God there go I.&quot; Praise God that He has given us so much grace that we are not left as followers, or worse as perpetrators, of what these Prosperity Teachers are all about. I can't imagine what is going to go through their minds as they are face to face with the Lord on that last day...


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## mjbee (May 7, 2004)

Wayne, I lived in Irving for 7 whole months! Like to killed me!Some of them people ain't got good sense. Scary.

Bee


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## Gregg (May 8, 2004)

If the health and wealth gospel were true, I probably wouldn't have been a widower when I was 31.

[Edited on 5-8-2004 by Gregg]


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## Mary (May 8, 2004)

Bee wrote:
[quote:9833e17885]
And I can't believe nobody can define snarky. I bet they can't define skanky, either
[/quote:9833e17885]

Paul Manata wrote:
[quote:9833e17885]
we define skanky on the mens only forum
[/quote:9833e17885]

Well, I CAN define skanky, but I won't. Or, as Auntie Em said, &quot;For 20 years I've been dying to tell you what I thought of you, and now, well, being a Christian woman, I can't say it!&quot;

Bee wrote:
[quote:9833e17885]
Mary,you're too young to be a hippie like me...but sing it Janice! &quot;Summertime&quot; is better.[/quote:9833e17885]
I don't know what old you are. I think you said &quot;older than dirt&quot; on the &quot;how old are you?&quot; thread and that's pretty general, but I am not as old as dirt, so you probably ARE older than me! I like alot of Janis' songs (Piece of My Heart &amp; Turtle Blues are my faves) but the song I quoted just seemed to fit perfectly...

Plus (as my sister loves to tell me all the time) you're only young once, but you can be immature forever...I'm not really immature, I am joyfilled! Besides, The Stooges ARE funny, I don't care what anybody says...

Mary :bs2:


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## Ianterrell (May 8, 2004)

Wayne,

Move to Dallas? So I can hear great eisogetical preaching?


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## Gregg (May 8, 2004)

[quote:2dbe0192a6][i:2dbe0192a6]Originally posted by Mary[/i:2dbe0192a6]

I don't know what old you are. I think you said &quot;older than dirt&quot; on the &quot;how old are you?&quot; thread and that's pretty general, but I am not as old as dirt, so you probably ARE older than me! I like alot of Janis' songs (Piece of My Heart &amp; Turtle Blues are my faves) but the song I quoted just seemed to fit perfectly...



Mary :bs2: [/quote:2dbe0192a6]

Reply...

These 3 fellows choice of transportation is probably older than both of you put together.




[Edited on 5-8-2004 by Gregg]


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## mjbee (May 8, 2004)

Yippee yi oh ki ay! Git along lil dogies!But back to the topic, I've stumbled into charismaniac health/wealth churches. Before I ever read Pink or Sproul or Packer, I said to myself, &quot;Self, these teachings deny God's sovereignty, and if God is not sovereign, then God is not God. Time to boogie on down the road.&quot; Jeremiah 6:16. That's what everything boils down to. Is God sovereign and immutable, or not? If He is, there is no rational choice except the Reformed view. So Reformed I be. Somewhat. I still have troubles with Sunday worship, but that's a different thread. 

Gregg, is this the first time you said anything about losing your wife at such a young age? I was a bodybuilder when I was younger. We said, &quot;If it doesn't kill ya, it'll make ya strong.&quot; Do you have kids? Prayers and blessings on you, brother. Looking forward to meeting you in the kingdom!

Bee


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## FrozenChosen (May 9, 2004)

1.[b:8937d22ef4] Jesus cast a look on me,
Give me sweet simplicity
Make me poor and keep me low,
Seeking only Thee to know[/b:8937d22ef4]

2. All that feeds my busy pride,
Cast it evermore aside
Bid my will to Thine submit,
Lay me humbly at Thy feet

3. Make me like a little child,
Of my strength and wisdom spoiled
Seeing only in Thy light,
Walking only in Thy might

4. Leaning on Thy loving breast,
Where a weary soul can rest
Feeling well the peace of God,
Flowing from His precious blood

5. In this posture let me live,
And hosannas daily give
In this temper let me die,
And hosannas ever cry!

Obviously this hymn writer (John Berridge) didn't get it. Poor John.


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## Mary (May 10, 2004)

You know, to be completely serious for 2 seconds (this is a stretch for me, but I think I'm up to the task) - if you consider the fact that the poorest person in the US (or Canada) is worlds richer than the vast majority of the world, the &quot;health &amp; wealth&quot; movement is just UNGRATEFUL. We're already rich. How dare we even desire more, when billions of people live on the brink of starvation, disease, etc. And to presume that the amount of money you have is a direct result of this? This is the kind of thing that makes the rest of the world hate us. 

&quot;Constant complaint is the poorest sort of payment for all the privileges we enjoy.&quot; -Benjamin Franklin

Mary


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## wsw201 (May 10, 2004)

[quote:746e60af03][i:746e60af03]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:746e60af03]
Wayne,

Move to Dallas? So I can hear great eisogetical preaching? 

 [/quote:746e60af03]

It will be the best made up stuff you ever heard


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## dado6 (May 12, 2004)

Mary:
when billions of people live on the brink of starvation, disease, etc

Just to cancel out this common American assumption. There is terrible poverty around the world, but the average citizen of nearly every country on the planet does not face starvation. The threat of mass starvation lives in pockets and is usually the result of deliberate government oppression of unwanted minority groups (preventing migration to more fertile lands is a common method of 'tribal cleansing' in some African nations). I have seen grinding poverty first hand in China, India, Columbia, Peru, Haiti and Ecuador and it is a horrific sight but all these people have access to food.

Having all said that, your main point is spot on the money. By the Word Faith criteria, we (the US) must be the most faithful people in the world. Our standard of living is the highest in the world by a wide margin, so we must be a nation of true believers. Tell that to the Christian waiter I met in Shantou, China who breaks bread with his brothers under a highway bridge on Sunday nights to avoid confrontation with the authorities. He makes about $35.00 dollars a month. He clearly has no faith, since he has yet to name and claim his God given prosperity.

Tliton, Copeland, Dollar, Price, Myers, Hagee, Crouch, the list goes on and on. These 'teachers' are a cancer in the church. The saddest part, in my opinion, is that these wolves are the face of Christianity to many unbelievers in the US. Almost all of TBN programing carries the Health &amp; Wealth message and these vipers far out number orthodox preachers on syndicated outlets as well. But they are preaching what many want to hear, so the situation is not surprising in the television sphere. The situation is a little different in radio and print thankfully. As we look at mediums that require progressively more thought and reflection to access their message, we see orthodoxy represented in proportionally larger numbers. Dr. Boice is gone, but I can still hear is voice on every Christian radio station in my area. I see John Piper, James White and R.C. Sproul on the shelf in my local Borders. But, and this is a big but, these outlets are not really open to non believers. 

The long and short is that Historic Protestantism is all but invisible to the lost in our culture while a truly American false gospel is holding its tent revivals under satellite dishes accross the county. We must pray for true revival and reformation if we are to hope for the removal of this poision from our church and culture.

Thanks,
Rob


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 5, 2004)

Sometimes I get really irritated at major Christian bookstores for selling this garbage. They are not preaching Christ, they are not preaching the gospel, they are scamming you into making their wallets (or purses) FAT.

Whenever I go into some bookstore (which isn't often) and see a giant stack of the most recent Left Behind novel, or the most popular Christian [self] help book, I want to go Huguenot Karate Chop on it and tear the place down.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 5, 2004)

It's sad but I usually see more conservative evangelical theology in [b:17bfa733f4]secular[/b:17bfa733f4] bookstores. Any reason for this?


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## py3ak (Jun 5, 2004)

[quote:8aeb76652f]
Its a shame that the lost see these people on TV and then think that they represent Christianity! What I don't get is that the average &quot;non-Christian&quot; can tell after two minutes that these people are full of malarky, and then our same evangelical brothers and sisters can be big fans of them. This just baffles my mind! 

Where is discernment? Where is wisdom? Where is even plain common sense? The only thing I can come up with is: &quot;...but by the grace of God there go I.&quot; Praise God that He has given us so much grace that we are not left as followers, or worse as perpetrators, of what these Prosperity Teachers are all about. I can't imagine what is going to go through their minds as they are face to face with the Lord on that last day...
[/quote:8aeb76652f]

I think the answer to your frustration about a lack of discernment is twofold. One is positive. Romans 16:19 &quot;For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.&quot; In context, Paul is warning them about false teachers. The obedient spirit of the Roman Christians made them a target for false teachers --so Paul has to exhort them to wisdom. Sometimes our very humility, submission &amp; teachableness can be perverted to lead us astray --and one perversion is for us then to conclude that we need to be suspicious and fractious! 2 Corinthians 11:3 &quot;But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ&quot; shows that the deception of the devil is a danger for the churches. 
The other answer is negative. Christians, even sincere Christians, are often hugely ignorant. They are intimidated by theological controversy, so they don't think. They're frightened by Greek and Hebrew so they don't reflect on the Word. They're weakened by inadequate educations that don't teach them to think. Our society does not really promote common sense.
Finally, being &quot;wise as serpents and harmless as doves&quot; has always been difficult for those who are not glorified.

I believe we should pray against false teachers --that their mouths would be stopped and that the Lord would repay them.


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## dado6 (Jun 5, 2004)

Ian,

It is a difference in consumer desire and response.

For the big chain stores, religious literature is small beans. They will not recognize enhanced profit by stocking large quantities of the latest and greatest (and most expensive) Christian Booksellers Association title. Rather they play it conservative, economically speaking. They offer a wide range of titles by bigger name authors and major publishers...stuff that will sell steady. They also will stock some stable historic titles for this reason (lots of C.S. Lewis, Bonhoeffer, Luther, Augustine, etc.). As a result, Sproul, Packer, Horton and White get a higher share of shelf space in relation to Schuller, Hinn, Jakes and LaHaye then one would see in a Christian bookstore. Of course Left Behind will still sell more than The Holiness of God, but neither of these titles will bring home the bacon like the latest Oprah book Club title (a single title of Oprah's selection will probably cary more inventory than the entire Christian section in a Barne's Noble Strawberry Borders storefront).

Christian bookstores on the other-hand are driven by what sells in their niche market (as defined by the CBA largely), hence The God who Justifies will give up shelf space to The Prayer of Jabez every time. Oprah has no footing here (at least in terms of book inventory....theology may be another matter).

Thanks,
Rob


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## Scot (Jun 5, 2004)

I've pretty much given up on looking for books in the store (christian or secular). I usually get my books here: http://www.cvbbs.com/

Hey, I'm in the health business. I'm still waiting on the wealth part!

Have you guys ever read &quot;Charismatic Chaos&quot; by Macarthur? It's been awhile since I've read it but I think he covers some of the health and wealth teachings. I didn't agree with everything he said but I thought it was good overall.

What about &quot;Counterfeit Miracles&quot; by Warfield or &quot;Signs of the Apostles&quot; by Walter Chantry? I thought those were excellent.

In Christ,
Scot


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## Ianterrell (Jun 7, 2004)

Scot,

As of yet I have not read any books on this theme. MacArthur's tape series on tongues was very helpful though.


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## Irishcat922 (Jun 7, 2004)

MacArthur was good, Victor Budgeon's The charismatics and the Word of God is excellent I thought. I have found a plethora of great Info and debates on the topic online, I have downloaded many great debates on the topic, if you want I can e-mail you some of them. I think the most disturbing issue today is the &quot;third wave movement&quot; and the &quot; theologians &quot; involved. Jack Deere, Wayne Grudem and that whole group. As a former non cessationist, and my whole family still involved, i take great interest, in reading and trying to understand their view point. I am sympathetic, but I see the great danger involved with their view on the Authority of scripture. Nobody really believes that anymore though do they? Or so it seems.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2004)

I've been reading through Job, and I was wondering: were some of Job's friends preaching an early form of health &amp; wealth?

I think self-righteousness has to play a huge part in that kind of gospel, doesn't it? Job seems to have felt his inability to stand before God, but at least two of the others don't seem to.


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## Scot (Jun 7, 2004)

Ian,

If you ever get a chance, read &quot;Signs of the Apostles&quot; by Chantry. It doesn't deal so much with the &quot;Health and Wealth&quot; gospel but does show why tongues, further revelation, etc. are no longer happening today. These things usually go hand and hand with the &quot;Health and Wealth&quot; gospel.

In Christ,
Scot


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## Puritanhead (Dec 26, 2004)

Can God pay off my near $50k in student loans and assorted debt?
:bigsmile:


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## Ivan (Dec 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Can God pay off my near $50k in student loans and assorted debt?
> :bigsmile:



Only if you admit you are a bankrupted sinner.


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