# 2 Tim 2:13



## satz (Jan 14, 2005)

11This is a faithful saying: 
For if we died with Him, 
We shall also live with Him. 
12If we endure, 
We shall also reign with Him. 
If we deny Him, 
He also will deny us. 
13If we are faithless, 
He remains faithful; 
He cannot deny Himself


What exactly is Paul saying in v13? If we are faithless he remains faithful? Sounds strange to anyone?


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## Ianterrell (Jan 15, 2005)

Another take on v. 13 is that God will persue his glory and honor even if we do not. I think there is something fearsome about this portion that is backed up by the couplets created.

(A) If we have died with him 
we will also live with him 
(B) If we endure 
We will also reign with Him 

A and B seem to be rather on the up
speaking of blessings obtained


(C)If we deny him 
he will also deny Him 
(D)If we are faithless 
He will remain faithful
For he cannot deny himself

C and D seem to be rather on the 
downside indicating wrath. 

So I do not take the faithfulness of God to indicate benevolence towards the disobedient in this. Rather I see it as an example of God primary love - Himself. "For he cannot deny himself" This seems to fit with couplet itself and also the following exhortations where he warns them of apostasy (v. 18-19). Where he describes vessels for dishonor and those that are honorable. This determined use is conditional based on one cleansing himself and being a vessel (20-21) The warning transforms into an eschatalogical one culminating in Paul's beloved encouragement to Timothy to stand on the scriptures "breathed out by God".



[Edited on 15-1-2005 by Ianterrell]


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## fredtgreco (Jan 15, 2005)

Here is Henry's comment, which are very helpful:



> He is faithful to his threatenings, faithful to his promises; neither one nor the other shall fall to the ground, no, not the least, jot nor tittle of them. If we be faithful to Christ, he will certainly be faithful to us. If we be false to him, he will be faithful to his threatenings: he cannot deny himself, cannot recede from any word that he hath spoken, for he is yea, and amen, the faithful witness



Remember that the faithfulness that is being faithful to His promises and threatenings, it is not "having faith" in something.


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## Ivan (Jan 15, 2005)

My faith is only in Christ.


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## satz (Jan 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Here is Henry's comment, which are very helpful:
> 
> 
> ...



I think i've actually read that comment by Henry before...or at least by someone who said pretty much the same thing. 

While i agree that it is a worthy commentary, it seems to me, (and i could just be wrong) that that interpretation is a bit..forced? How would one, on reading the passage know that what was said was of Christ's faithfulness to his own threatenings? It seems to me that the reason Henry and others came up with such an interpretation was they wanted to avoid one that seemed to lessen the effect of faithlessness on our part.

anyone else see this? or am i just off the boat?


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