# Exactly when does the soul enter the body?



## 2legit2quit (Jun 8, 2004)

I have been reading William Hasker's brief introduction to metaphysics, and upon reading his chapter on the mind and body, specifically as it pertains to Descartes' dualism, I began to think about exactly when the soul is placed into the body. I think various responses to this question might have important ramifications as it pertains to things like:
1. Abortion, and classifying a fetus as a human being, because if a human being is classified as something that contains a soul and at the moment of conception the soul is not present, then it would follow that the fetus or more accurately (I think) the embryo would not be human.
2. If the soul is created and placed inside the 'body' at the moment of conception is that 'body' conscious?

Just some stuff to think about. What do you guys think?!?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Jun 8, 2004)

*This is a mysterious area*

Traducianists think that the soul's existence and development is a product of human reproduction. I incline toward this view.
(Soul-)Creationists think that God creates a soul and plants it in the new body formed in the womb. 
Both positions are defensible from the standpoint of the Christian faith. Both present problems that must be acknowledged or addressed.
Truly we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Since we really don't know the full answer, but we know God's eyes are upon our &quot;unformed substance,&quot; no intentional destruction of that substance is warranted. (see Ps. 139:13-16)


----------



## 2legit2quit (Jun 9, 2004)

I think that both can be combined to make up a christian explanation of the *origins* of the soul, but *when* does the soul enter the body to make up what we call a human being?


----------



## py3ak (Jun 9, 2004)

On the traducian point of view, the question is rather awkwardly put. The soul does not enter the body from without. The soul is rather contemporaneous with the body, and is &quot;individuated&quot; at the moment of conception.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

Ruben is correct.

To divide soul and body is Gnostic.

Even in death we have a different body awaiting resurrection to yet our final glorified body.

St. Paul mentions this somewhere.


----------



## staythecourse (Jun 9, 2004)

*Leviticus*

The famous &quot;eye for an eye&quot; occurs in Dueteronomy. If a man hits a woman and causes an abortion then it is, eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life.

Life begins before a breath is put in the child's body.
Life is before birth.


----------



## VanVos (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:acb750a8d5][i:acb750a8d5]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:acb750a8d5]
Ruben is correct.

To divide soul and body is Gnostic.

Even in death we have a different body awaiting resurrection to yet our final glorified body.

St. Paul mentions this somewhere. [/quote:acb750a8d5]

Not sure on this, are you saying we have a temporary body before resurrection. If so where is that in scripture? And Yes even though I am a dichotomous I do see man as body soul unity, you can't have one without the other. On the issue of the origin of the soul I would say it's combination of the creationist view with traducianist view is correct. That is even though soul does not pre-exist conception it developes in the womb just as the body does because everything neccessary for human life comes from the parents.

VanVos


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 9, 2004)

David said that when he was concieved, he was a sinner before God. At that time (conception) he was in sin. That means the soul had to be present, and that sin has been imputed to it. Remember, God imputes sin to us. Otherwise, it would be impossible for God to have a relationship in this way, based on the fall, on a &quot;non-moral&quot; being.

Abortion is murder. God has a realtionship to cells as Creator, but not morally. It is a human being, conscious (so to speak) in its cell form as a depraved human fallen in Adam.

Ditto to 9:9

I am actually surprised that many pastors do not believe this. My Reformed Baptist Pastor did not believe this when i spoke to him about this years ago. He thought it was &quot;nothing.&quot;


----------



## Ianterrell (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:355c1d7949][i:355c1d7949]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:355c1d7949]
Ruben is correct.

To divide soul and body is Gnostic.

Even in death we have a different body awaiting resurrection to yet our final glorified body.

St. Paul mentions this somewhere. [/quote:355c1d7949]

That is incorrect. Paul says that the dead shall be raised incorruptible and that at this same moment those living at Christ's return shall be changed. We only have these bodies and our resurrection bodies. The resurrection bodies are our glorified bodies.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

So we hang out in Abraham's bosom with disembodied souls like a bunch of ghosts ? ? ?

Give me a break.

Even those in Hades were able to &quot;see&quot; each other. There is a morphology there. That is the body I reference. Parable of Lazarus and rich man.

[Edited on 6-9-2004 by Wintermute]


----------



## pastorway (Jun 9, 2004)

I agree with 9:9 and Matt.

As for Mark - To be [i:0eab014d72]absent[/i:0eab014d72] from the BODY is to be present with the Lord. God is Spirit and yet those in heaven see Him and His glory as He sits on the throne. Being spirit without body does not make one invisible in heaven.

There can be no Scriptural support given for the idea that we have a body of any kind between death and the resurrection.

Phillip


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:826f432998]
There can be no Scriptural support given for the idea that we have a body of any kind between death and the resurrection. 


[/quote:826f432998]

I gave one. The account of the rich man and Lazarus.

They saw a form they recognized and a human form.
Body is the vehicle that gives shape to the soul.


----------



## pastorway (Jun 9, 2004)

The [i:1625e95825]parable[/i:1625e95825] tells us they saw each other, it does not identify any physical form or body - just a person. A person can and does exist without a body after death, though they may be recognized, just as God is Spirit and He is recognized.

Phillip


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

I guess we will know when we die.



Meanwhile I will stick with Dante.

[quote:781eadde3d]
The Power has disposed such bodiless
bodies to suffer torments, heat and cold;
how this is done, He would not have us know.

Purgatorio Canto III : 31-33
[/quote:781eadde3d]


Virgil explaining the nature of bodies in the afterlife when Dante is astonished at seeing his own shadow but not Virgil's.


----------



## pastorway (Jun 9, 2004)

It is the Bible, not Dante, that is profitable for doctrine......

Phillip


----------



## Craig (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:a22edb0ea3]
Even those in Hades were able to &quot;see&quot; each other. There is a morphology there. That is the body I reference. Parable of Lazarus and rich man. 
[/quote:a22edb0ea3]
So....when it comes time for our glorification; will that other body die? I thought it was only [i:a22edb0ea3]once[/i:a22edb0ea3] that a man was appointed to die.

I believe the spirit of man is incomplete without a body, but still can suffer and perceive things and even experience joy (I think the saints are enjoying heaven now, but eagerly await their new bodies); so the rich man in the parable genuinely did suffer spiritual pain.

Seriously though; with all those multiple deaths and resurrections, you sound like a dispensationalist talking about all the different raptures  (meant in good humor!)


----------



## py3ak (Jun 9, 2004)

Wintermute,

On your understanding of the body being the vehicle of the soul's expression would you also understand the angels to have bodies? What about Christ's statement to His disciples when they thought that He was a ghost that a spirit does not have flesh and blood as they could see that He did? That text seems to make your position difficult to maintain.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:39e1b5284d]
So....when it comes time for our glorification; will that other body die? I thought it was only once that a man was appointed to die. 

[/quote:39e1b5284d]

Death is separation. Physical or covenantal.

Resurrection is transformation.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 9, 2004)

[quote:e11e0e3746]
On your understanding of the body being the vehicle of the soul's expression would you also understand the angels to have bodies? What about Christ's statement to His disciples when they thought that He was a ghost that a spirit does not have flesh and blood as they could see that He did? That text seems to make your position difficult to maintain. 
[/quote:e11e0e3746]

On the contrary, that text proves my point.
Christ had a seemingly solid but ethereal body.


----------



## py3ak (Jun 9, 2004)

Luke 24:36-43
&quot;And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.&quot;

I'm sorry, Mark, but I don't follow how this text establishes that Christ had an ethereal body --I would have thought the whole point of eating the fish was to demonstrate that that was not the case. But the fact that Christ had a substantial body, after the Resurrection, gives no evidence that He had an ethereal body in between death and Resurrection.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 10, 2004)

Why am I even arguing with you people about this.

This is so absurd. Who cares really?

Ethereal bodies can eat.

&quot;seen a spirit&quot; that is the key.

They saw Him empirically.

If a soul is IMMATERIAL how can you SEE it ? ? ?

The answer: It has a body. A morphe, ie. form.

I think I have a broader definition of &quot;body&quot; than you are allowing.



[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Wintermute]


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 10, 2004)

When Christ rose from the dead, he ha s &quot;revitalized&quot; glorified body that the disciples saw, touches, and ate with. It had scars, but was &quot;refashioned&quot; to do things like &quot;appear&quot; in the midst of them.

The question around the spirit of a man is an interesting one in general. According to science, when a person dies thier body looses a certain amount of wieght. Seems like the soul of a man has a &quot;weight to it.&quot; God is called &quot;holy&quot; which coems from the hebrew idea of &quot;weightiness.&quot; At the same time, 1 Timothy tells us that God is invisible. The Scriptures do not tell us that men's spirit's are invisible, or angels are invisible, but only God is invisible as an infinite being.

We have a few instacnes of people being seen and comprehended in the Bible, The Rich man, Moses and Elijah when appearing with Christ on the Mount, and all sorts of angelic apearences. The Scripures also tell us that when we die our bodies return to dust, and our souls are no longer attached to them.

The passage in revelation says this:

Revelation 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, &quot;How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?&quot; 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Seems like these souls had the ability to be seen, clothed, and awating a final consummation of things. Obviously sentient. They, though, did not have a glorified body, as Christ's was, the firstborn among many brethren. We too, will one day be raised in a new body, not like our earthly bodies.

When we are in heaven, Paul tells us that we are &quot;absent from the body&quot; and present with the Lord. Same would go for those in hell, though we still ahve the ability to see a form, and know exactly who people are. (Spiritual mysteries are fun eh?)

We can conjecture that God allows our spirits some form to be seen, but the Scriptures simply do not tell us what the material substance (other than disembodied souls) are like when we die. It is certain, based on texts, that we will see others, talk with them, feel, think, etc. That does not, however argue for any kind of body, and could be argued for the exact opposite. 

Here is how the Confession deals with this:

Q86: What is the communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death ?
A86: The communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death, is, in that their souls are then made perfect in holiness,[1] and received into the highest heavens,[2] where they behold the face of God in light and glory,[3] [b:7e8adc52ed]waiting [/b:7e8adc52ed] for the full redemption [b:7e8adc52ed]of their bodies[/b:7e8adc52ed],[4] which even in death continue united to Christ,[5] and rest in their graves as in their beds,[6] till at the last day they be again united to their souls.[7] Whereas the souls of the wicked are at their death cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, and their bodies kept in their graves, as in their prisons, till the resurrection and judgment of the great day.[8]

1. Heb. 12:23
2. II Cor. 5:1, 6, 8; Phil 1:23; Acts 3:21; Eph. 4:10
3. I John 3:2; I Cor. 13:12
4. Rom. 8:23; Psa. 16:9
5. I Thess. 4:14
6. Isa. 57:2
7. Job 19:26-27
8. Luke 16:23-24; Acts 1:25; Jude 1:6-7

Basically it says this same thing in a few places.


----------



## Saiph (Jun 10, 2004)

What you call &quot;recognizable form&quot; I was calling body.

We could just as easily say that the soul has a form, or shell.

Even a galaxy has a body, in the sense that I am using.

I did not mean to imply flesh and bones, yet Christ did have something like flesh and blood I guess.


----------



## py3ak (Jun 10, 2004)

Mark,

I would suggest this as an alternative. Spirit has the ability to affect matter. When I go to church, for instance, the immaterial part of me has made a decision that moves the material part of me out to the car, etc. Since &quot;spirit&quot; can affect &quot;matter&quot; in this way, surely it could also (at least under certain circumstances) affect other people's optic nerves. In other words, strictly speaking spirit is immaterial. However, it has the ability to affect matter in different ways.

Also interesting on this score, since angels are &quot;ministering spirits&quot; is the story in Kings about how Elisha prayed for his servant's eyes to be opened --and he saw the angelic host. 

As I see it, there is a spiritual perception analogous to seeing: something that we, while in the body, would probably experience as seeing.

This is not something of major importance. Since God is &quot;a spirit&quot; and the confession speaks of Him being &quot;without body&quot;, though, I wondered how you thought of these things.


----------



## py3ak (Jun 10, 2004)

*P.S.*

Your last post went up while I was typing my reply.

You said:
[quote:fdc2f68ce8]
yet Christ did have something like flesh and blood I guess.
[/quote:fdc2f68ce8]

Luke says:
[quote:fdc2f68ce8]
a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[/quote:fdc2f68ce8]


----------



## Saiph (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:dce4b8d82e]
As I see it, there is a spiritual perception analogous to seeing: something that we, while in the body, would probably experience as seeing.
[/quote:dce4b8d82e]

I would agree.

Unless we are born again we cannot &quot;see&quot; the Kingdom of God.

I think we are close to being on the same page.

We are speaking of realities more substantial than the physical world, yet not of the same substance.

I was using body, too broadly, as in &quot;container&quot;, yet I see now I really do not need to use that word because it does cause confusion (even in my own mind).

Who will deliver me from this body of death ? ?


----------



## py3ak (Jun 10, 2004)

Neat.

By the way, A.W. Pink suggested that maybe clairvoyance and clairaudience are the satanic counterfeits of a power that unfallen man had --to perceive spiritual substance.


----------



## 2legit2quit (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:4746b4b732][i:4746b4b732]Originally posted by 9:9[/i:4746b4b732]
Conception. :smug_b: [/quote:4746b4b732]
do you think that the soul is conscious at conception?
Are you a trichotomist or a dichotomist?


----------



## 2legit2quit (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:e610ebfa9f][i:e610ebfa9f]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:e610ebfa9f]
David said that when he was concieved, he was a sinner before God. [/quote:e610ebfa9f]

that was a good answer!! Wher is that verse?


----------

