# Pope Benedict on Martin Luther



## jaybird0827 (Mar 7, 2008)

London Times Article

Here is a quote,



> Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.


 
I wonder where this is going. Thoughts?


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## JBaldwin (Mar 7, 2008)

I will quote someone with whom I was speaking yesterday regarding the RCC: "The catholic church is as pagan as the relativists of today. They change their views with the wind and change the color of their skin like chameleons"


It is well-known that the RCC has been making an effort in the last several years to reunite Christendom. There is also an effort on the part of many protestant denominations (Lutherans, Methodists and even some PCUSAers) to reunite with the catholics. Pope Benedict is doing this for no other reason than to gain control of the protestant denominations.


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## Zenas (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh yeah, let me just get some knee pads so I can bend my knee in worship of the created. He said some nice things about Luther and came to less drastic conclusions than Leo X. When he puts down the funny hat, relenquishes any claims to infalliability, and endorses the Biblical understanding of justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then we can have some semblance of unity. Until that time, I am still in protest.


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## BertMulder (Mar 7, 2008)

At the same time he is courting the Eastern Church, as well as the moslems. Scary indeed.

Read the signs of the times.

Read Rev. 17 - is the papacy the whore?


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## Poimen (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe he wants a couple of wild boars in his vineyard to offset the Moors at his door(step).


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

Ian Paisley, who was a member of British Parliament, said something interesting a number of years ago, when the Pope addressed the assembly. He said outloud for all to hear, "Anti-Christ." He said it in a way that only Dr. Paisley could say it. The Papacy and the Roman cult have not changed. Sister Baldwin you are right. She is a chameleon and always changes her colors. Remember Vatican II instituted this tactic of refering to Protestants as "seperated brethren" and not heretics as the first Vatican Council did. Rome only wants unity on her terms. Everyone else will be forced to drink from her cup, but she will never change. The Pope is trying to backpeddle and soften his earlier pronouncement. She still denies the gospel of free grace and continues to lead souls to hell with her priestcraft. We need to continually show compassion to Roman Catholics and proclaim to them the gospel that will set them free.


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

BertMulder said:


> At the same time he is courting the Eastern Church, as well as the moslems. Scary indeed.
> 
> Read the signs of the times.
> 
> Read Rev. 17 - is the papacy the whore?




Yes, brother the Pope is the great whore. The WCF says it well, that the Pope is not the head of the church, but the anti-Christ, that man of sin who sets Himself up as a God.


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## Zenas (Mar 7, 2008)

I know it was amended out, but can we amend it back in?


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

Zenas said:


> I know it was amended out, but can we amend it back in?



I subscribe to the original confession for this reason, as well as the the fact that other sections were amended by American Presbyterians. I agree that we should put it back in the American edition. I am not certain why it was deleted other than perhaps some compromised the truth. I believe our Puritan Fathers had a good reason why they used the language they did. Interestingly, A.A. Hodge, in his edition of the WCF kept the original wording of the confession intact. When I use the WCF in my preaching and teaching or in our order of worship for a responsive reading by the congregation, I use the original language.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 7, 2008)

Poimen said:


> Maybe he wants a couple of wild boars in his vineyard to offset the Moors at his door(step).





Interesting how the Muslim threat in the 21st century resembles the one in the 16th. But, the answer is the same. If we can just get everyone to agree we will have a solid front against the threat from Islam. Too bad so many of Luther's children have decided that it is time to bow the knee to Rome.


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Poimen said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe he wants a couple of wild boars in his vineyard to offset the Moors at his door(step).
> ...


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 7, 2008)

The Catholics on the Catholic forums are all claiming that the article is speculation and has several errors in it...


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## Simply_Nikki (Mar 7, 2008)

Ah, so Rome has decided to unanathamatize us? whoopdie doo, I can't tell you how much this means... (lol)


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## David_A_Reed (Mar 7, 2008)

The list of Bible readers who identified the papacy with antichrist covers more than a thousand years -- from the earliest days of the papacy until now. Luther included Islam with the papacy as the two "legs" of antichrist, and Calvin included them both as the two "horns" of antichrist.

I believe it was mainly in reaction to this particular teaching that those desiring to be more politically correct adopted the dispensationalist theory which moved the antichrist to a future 7-year Tribulation, and changed popery and Islam into "great religions" we are called upon to respect.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 7, 2008)

*Luther on the Pope*



Zenas said:


> Oh yeah, let me just get some knee pads so I can bend my knee in worship of the created. He said some nice things about Luther and came to less drastic conclusions than Leo X. When he puts down the funny hat, relenquishes any claims to infalliability, and endorses the Biblical understanding of justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then we can have some semblance of unity. Until that time, I am still in protest.



Andrew--
Sounds like you've been reading Luther. In his Table Talk, Luther said it this way:



> If the Pope will throw away his crown and descend from his throne and primacy, and confess that he has erred, has destroyed the church, and poured out innocent blood, then we wil recieve him into the church, otherwise, we must regard him as Antichrist.



And then he said,


> This one thing preserve when I am dead, namely, hatred towards the Roman Pontiff.


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

David_A_Reed said:


> The list of Bible readers who identified the papacy with antichrist covers more than a thousand years -- from the earliest days of the papacy until now. Luther included Islam with the papacy as the two "legs" of antichrist, and Calvin included them both as the two "horns" of antichrist.
> 
> I believe it was mainly in reaction to this particular teaching that those desiring to be more politically correct adopted the dispensationalist theory which moved the antichrist to a future 7-year Tribulation, and changed popery and Islam into "great religions" we are called upon to respect.



Thanks, David. These two cults want world domination and obviously this was the case during the middle ages. I have never heard this about dispensationalism before, so thanks for your insight.


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 7, 2008)

Our statement of doctrine within the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod still holds that the office of the papacy is anti-Christ. Ya'll Reformed need to get back on board with this!

Honestly, whether Pope Benedict rescinds Martin Luther's excommunication or not really doesn't matter a whit. We never considered it worthwhile anyway. 

Exsurge Burnay!


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

FlyingDutchman said:


> Our statement of doctrine within the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod still holds that the office of the papacy is anti-Christ. Ya'll Reformed need to get back on board with this!
> 
> Honestly, whether Pope Benedict rescinds Martin Luther's excommunication or not really doesn't matter a whit. We never considered it worthwhile anyway.
> 
> Exsurge Burnay!



Thanks, brother. Too many Reformed people don't see what their confessional standards teach. I am encouraged that the MO Synod still regards this. We should remember that Benedict or Ratsinger is not the first pope to have rescinded Luther's excommunication. Others like Paul the sixth made similar statements. It is all smoke and mirrors brothers and sisters.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 7, 2008)

Stephen said:


> FlyingDutchman said:
> 
> 
> > Our statement of doctrine within the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod still holds that the office of the papacy is anti-Christ. Ya'll Reformed need to get back on board with this!
> ...



Absolutely. No real changes can be made in this regard. These are just "cosmetic." The Roman Church by its own decsription is semper idem (always the same).


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## David_A_Reed (Mar 7, 2008)

Although today it is Islam that slits the throats of Christians and burns down churches, Spurgeon urged us to remember the record of the papal antichrist:



> “Whether it may be traced to want of will or want of inclination on the part of other establishments, it is certain that the Popish Antichrist alone has been able to drink of the overflowing blood-cup filled by familiars and tormentors. Long pampered by the state, she came to be its lord and tyrant, using fire and sword, prison and rack, to work her accursed will. The Inquisition was the masterpiece of infernal craft and malice, and its deeds were far more worthy of fiends than men. If the church of Rome could at this moment change its Ethiopian skin for ever, lay aside its leopard's spots, and become a pure community, ten thousand years of immaculate holiness and self-denying philanthropy could not avail to blot out the remembrance of the enormous crimes with which the Inquisition has loaded it. There is a deep and indelible sentence of damnation written upon the apostate church by avenging justice for its more than infernal cruelties, and the curse is registered in heaven; nor can any pretences to present liberality reverse the condemnation which outraged humanity has pronounced against it; its infamy is engraved in the rock for ever. Centuries of the most liberal policy would not convince mankind that Popery had become tolerant at heart; she wallowed so greedily in oppression, torture, and murder in her palmy days, that the foam of human gore hangs around her wolfish hugs, and men will not believe her to be a gentle lamb, let her bleat as she may. Against her common humanity is up in arms as much as evangelical religion.” (“The Inquisition” by C. H. Spurgeon, from the August 1868 _Sword and Trowel_ magazine)


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 7, 2008)

In another place, Luther said:


> Since the Pope is a heretic, an idolater, Antichrist, and the red whore reeking with the blood of the pious, therefore we will not admit him to our presence...In fine, to make a treaty between us and the Pope, is to make a treaty between God and Belial. Nothing will come of it...



Something tells me Martin Luther wouldn't be impressed with Pope Benedict's words.


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## Stephen (Mar 8, 2008)

David_A_Reed said:


> Although today it is Islam that slits the throats of Christians and burns down churches, Spurgeon urged us to remember the record of the papal antichrist:
> 
> 
> 
> > “Whether it may be traced to want of will or want of inclination on the part of other establishments, it is certain that the Popish Antichrist alone has been able to drink of the overflowing blood-cup filled by familiars and tormentors. Long pampered by the state, she came to be its lord and tyrant, using fire and sword, prison and rack, to work her accursed will. The Inquisition was the masterpiece of infernal craft and malice, and its deeds were far more worthy of fiends than men. If the church of Rome could at this moment change its Ethiopian skin for ever, lay aside its leopard's spots, and become a pure community, ten thousand years of immaculate holiness and self-denying philanthropy could not avail to blot out the remembrance of the enormous crimes with which the Inquisition has loaded it. There is a deep and indelible sentence of damnation written upon the apostate church by avenging justice for its more than infernal cruelties, and the curse is registered in heaven; nor can any pretences to present liberality reverse the condemnation which outraged humanity has pronounced against it; its infamy is engraved in the rock for ever. Centuries of the most liberal policy would not convince mankind that Popery had become tolerant at heart; she wallowed so greedily in oppression, torture, and murder in her palmy days, that the foam of human gore hangs around her wolfish hugs, and men will not believe her to be a gentle lamb, let her bleat as she may. Against her common humanity is up in arms as much as evangelical religion.” (“The Inquisition” by C. H. Spurgeon, from the August 1868 _Sword and Trowel_ magazine)



Thanks, brother. More Christians have been persecuted at the hands of Rome, read *Foxes Book of Martyrs*. Is the 1868 issue of the *Sword and Trowel *still available?


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## turmeric (Mar 8, 2008)

So Leo X wasn't infallible?


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 8, 2008)

turmeric said:


> So Leo X wasn't infallible?





Don't tell anyone!


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## David_A_Reed (Mar 8, 2008)

Stephen said:


> David_A_Reed said:
> 
> 
> > Although today it is Islam that slits the throats of Christians and burns down churches, Spurgeon urged us to remember the record of the papal antichrist:
> ...



Not sure about the complete issue, but this complete article on the Inquisition is available online at The Inquisition


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## Dieter Schneider (Mar 8, 2008)

The pope's desire to see Martin Luther rehabilitated is of no ultimate consequence. He has no power over departed saints. Far better to condemn those who wrongly condemned the greatest of all Germans – at the Council of Trent that is! But that is impossible since the Council of Trent, “this holy Synod, “instructed by the Holy Spirit” cannot have erred. Dissent from Tridentine teaching, according to Pius IV, “will incur the indignation of Almighty God, and of His blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul”. If Trent was right then Luther was wrong. Where, then, does that leave an infallible Pope? Perhaps it is more important to reflect on Luther about the papacy (see my blog), though some of it would be too rude to mention. If you don't believe me click here (Lucas Cranach).


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## holyfool33 (Mar 16, 2008)

If he is lifting the excommunication against Luther why is he not doing the same for Peter Waldo? Or publicly apologizing for the burning of Jan Huss simply put I think this is nothing more then a political move and wont actively be carried out


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 16, 2008)

David_A_Reed said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > David_A_Reed said:
> ...



The complete August 1868 issue of _Sword and Trowel_ is available online here.


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## holyfool33 (Mar 16, 2008)

David_A_Reed said:


> I believe it was mainly in reaction to this particular teaching that those desiring to be more politically correct adopted the dispensationalist theory which moved the antichrist to a future 7-year Tribulation, and changed popery and Islam into "great religions" we are called upon to respect.



Now come on I am Dispensationalist and I don't believe that have you ever read Dave Hunt he is a Dsipensationalist and he considers Roman Catholicism The Whore of Babylon your generalizing and painting with a broad brush my friend.


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## holyfool33 (Mar 16, 2008)

Stephen said:


> David_A_Reed said:
> 
> 
> > These two cults want world domination and obviously this was the case during the middle ages. I have never heard this about dispensationalism before, so thanks for your insight.
> ...


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## KMK (Apr 18, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> I will quote someone with whom I was speaking yesterday regarding the RCC: "The catholic church is as pagan as the relativists of today. They change their views with the wind and change the color of their skin like chameleons"
> 
> 
> It is well-known that the RCC has been making an effort in the last several years to reunite Christendom. There is also an effort on the part of many protestant denominations (Lutherans, Methodists and even some PCUSAers) to reunite with the catholics. Pope Benedict is doing this for no other reason than to gain control of the protestant denominations.



Including the NRSV!



> About the NRSV
> The NRSV first appeared in 1989 and has received the widest acclaim and broadest support from academics and church leaders of any modern English translation. It is the only Bible translation that is as widely ecumenical:
> 
> The ecumenical NRSV Bible Translation Committee consists of thirty men and women who are among the top scholars in America today. They come from Protestant denominations, the Roman Catholic church, and the Greek Orthodox Church. The committee also includes a Jewish scholar.
> ...



From here: http://www.ncccusa.org/newbtu/aboutnrs.html


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## Stephen (Apr 18, 2008)

Simply_Nikki said:


> Ah, so Rome has decided to unanathamatize us? whoopdie doo, I can't tell you how much this means... (lol)


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## BertMulder (Apr 18, 2008)

The PKN (state church in the Netherlands, and an amalgamation of the Netherlands Reformed Church, Christian Reformed and Lutheran Churches) is also in dialogue with Rome about the road back to Rome...


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## puritanpilgrim (Apr 18, 2008)

The Pope is the antichrist. Flee from the wrath to come.


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