# Help Regarding Sabbath



## TaylorOtwell (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi friends,

I have learned more and more about the Reformed perspective over the past year or so. However, one thing I am currently wrestling with is the issue of the Sabbath. 

I understand and agree that the Lord's Day was the traditional and accepted meeting time for the early church. However, I don't understand how many of the Jewish Sabbath stipulations got moved to this day, or where Scripture indicates that they did. 

What Biblical evidence do we have that would support the view that Jewish Sabbath stipulations carried over onto the Lord's Day?

The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God. 

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.


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## AV1611 (Apr 14, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.



I would suggest:

*1.* [ame="http://www.amazon.com/First-Day-Week-Christian-Sabbath/dp/1903087953/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1208197874&sr=11-1"]On the First Day of the Week: God, the Christian and the Sabbath[/ame]

*2.* The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath


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## KMK (Apr 14, 2008)

AW Pink "The Christian Sabbath" available here: http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 14, 2008)

KMK said:


> AW Pink "The Christian Sabbath" available here: THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH



 This was the book that pushed me over the edge. You can read it in less than an hour.


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## larryjf (Apr 14, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.



If there is no distinction between the ceremonial, civil, and moral law, why were only the priests permitted to perform the ceremonial law...why were the kings in charge of the civil law...why was everyone under the moral law?

How far is this belief of no more law outside of the NT taken? 

Do we allow our daughters to be prostitutes because the NT doesn't forbid it (Lev 19:29)?

Is it o.k. to cut ourselves for the dead (Lev 19:28)?

Is rape o.k. (Deu 22:25)?


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## TaylorOtwell (Apr 14, 2008)

larryjf said:


> TaylorOtwell said:
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> > The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.
> ...



The typical response I think you would receive would be that commands regarding adultery are given in the New Covenant Scripture. Similarly, we know that cutting ourselves for the dead has no bearing on their eternal state because no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ. 

Thank you all for your responses, I plan to read through that Pink article.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 14, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> TaylorOtwell said:
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> > What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.
> ...



Good choices I would also recommend Joey Pipa's Book, The Lord's Day


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## larryjf (Apr 14, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


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I thought that prostitution was different from adultery.

Also, the NT does teach that the Sabbath was indeed made for man...in other words for man to observe (Mark 2:27).


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 14, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.



You may wish to study the teaching of the Westminster Confession and Larger Catechism on this subject and the scriptures they cite in support of this doctrine.

WCF 19:



> 1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.a
> 
> a. Gen 1:26-27 with 2:17; Job 28:28; Eccl 7:29; Rom 2:14-15; 5:12, 19; 10:5; Gal 3:10, 12.
> 
> ...



WLC:



> Q93: What is the moral law?
> A93: The moral law is the declaration of the will of God to mankind, directing and binding everyone to personal, perfect, and perpetual conformity and obedience thereunto, in the frame and disposition of the whole man, soul and body,[1] and in performance of all those duties of holiness and righteousness which he oweth to God and man:[2] promising life upon the fulfilling, and threatening death upon the breach of it.[3]
> 
> 1. Deut. 5:1-3, 31, 33; Luke 10:26-27; Gal. 3:10; I Thess. 5:23
> ...


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## Southern Presbyterian (Apr 15, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> AV1611 said:
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## Grymir (Apr 15, 2008)

Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.

In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).

Thanks for any input - Grymir


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## Beoga (Apr 15, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> AV1611 said:
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I recently purchased this book and started skimming through it today. It looked pretty good. My one beef with the book is that I spent more on shipping than on the book itself ..


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.
> 
> In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).
> 
> Thanks for any input - Grymir



Reformed Baptists


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## JonathanHunt (Apr 15, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> Grymir said:
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> 
> > Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.
> ...



Er... no. That is just a broad brush sweep. Being a reformed baptist does not make you an adherent of New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am certainly still convinced that the Ten Commandments stand.

JH


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

JonathanHunt said:


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Sorry didn't mean to broadbrush. He asked where can it be taught? I know some of it is coming from Reformed Baptists. I have no idea what percentage it would be.


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## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> JonathanHunt said:
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How can a Baptist call himself 'Reformed' and yet adhere to NCT? If he is 'reformed' he must adhere to the LBC II, no? Perhaps the folks you are thinking of are 'calvanistic' but not reformed.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 15, 2008)

It comes from some Calvinistic baptists, indy fundy and arminian Southern baptists. It does not come from 1689 confessional baptists.


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> It comes from some Calvinistic baptists, indy fundy and arminian Southern baptists. It does not come from 1689 confessional baptists.




What does D.A. Carson call himself? Am I wrong thinking he is sypathetic to the view?


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 15, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
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True there are some who call themselves confessional who reject the perpetuity of the sabbath just as there are among Presbyterians. They are the exception to the rule and not the rule.


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## TaylorOtwell (Apr 15, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.
> 
> In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).
> 
> Thanks for any input - Grymir



No, the PCA church I attend does not teach this. I have been learning more and more about the wide range of beliefs that are "Reformed" (not just the five points). I was raised in the SBC, so I am obviously wrestling with issues such as the Sabbath and Baptism. 

As far as who believes NCT, there seems to be a growing interest in it among Calvinistic Baptist churches. The 1st London Confession (1644/1646), which was a different group of men than the editors of the 2nd London Confession, could possibly be cited as a historic example of it. Also, William Gadsby's Catechism seems to outline the belief as well.


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## JM (Apr 15, 2008)

Try this one:
New Covenant Theology


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> A5pointer said:
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A5pointer said:


> Blueridge Baptist said:
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I think D.A. Carson is a NCT man; he rejects the abiding validity of the Sabbath, but is very Calvinistic in his doctrine. He would probably call himself Reformed as well. 

Despite my differences with him on the Sabbath, infant baptism, Theonomy, inclusive language and so on, DA Carson is one of the best preachers I have ever heard.


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## Grymir (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks y'all for the input. It's interesting you mentioned Reformed Baptist. I'm considering switching from PCUSA/Westminster to Reformed Baptist/London because I'm not a Covenant theologian, and well, need I explain the PCUSA? 

quote - "The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God. 

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time"

I know that Jesus fulfilled all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law in order to be our savior, but the part about the commandments of Christ and His Apostles seemed, well, a little strange, because they were 'bringing forth' the 10 commandments, so to speak, and debunking the 613 commandments of the Pharisee's.

There's a Reformed Baptist church in my area, and I'm going to be checking them out. I'll have to ask about this NCT, because it doesn't seem to be Biblical as it is worded. ie, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles, and I would ask what 'binding' means (as in a guide for believers, or we have to follow these or we're not saved)

Thanks y'all - Grymir


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

joshua said:


> There are also different shades of NCT. Although I am _definitely not_ NCT, my Church holds to a _form_ thereof. However, they would not share the extreme views of NCT as held by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel.
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> For example, my pastor believes in the binding nature of the Decalogue; unfortunately, when it comes to the Sabbath, my church sees some of the command as being "ceremonial," and thus holds to the 4th Commandment as being one to be held in "principle." In other words, there should be one day to rest from servile labor and to meet with the people of God. However, they wouldn't say it's wrong to go out and eat on the Sabbath, etc, nor would they say it's essential for Sunday to be the day on which the Church _must_ meet.
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So they would hold to a more Continental* view of the Sabbath rather than a Scottish/Puritan view? 

* Yes, I know this is not entirely accurate terminology, but I use it for handiness.


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## TaylorOtwell (Apr 21, 2008)

I read the A.W. Pink article on the Sabbath, and the point that was most convincing at first was the reference to Genesis 16 and the observance of the Sabbath before Sinai in that passage.

However, Noah also was to distinguish between clean and unclean animals before Sinai; therefore, according to Pink's logic, are we to continue to distinguish between clean and unclean animals?


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## greenbaggins (Apr 21, 2008)

I have written a longish sort of article on it here defending the Christian Sabbath as being Sunday from a redemptive historical point of view.


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## A5pointer (Apr 21, 2008)

TaylorOtwell said:


> I read the A.W. Pink article on the Sabbath, and the point that was most convincing at first was the reference to Genesis 16 and the observance of the Sabbath before Sinai in that passage.
> 
> However, Noah also was to distinguish between clean and unclean animals before Sinai; therefore, according to Pink's logic, are we to continue to distinguish between clean and unclean animals?




I am not seeing that in Genesis 16, what am I missing?


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 21, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> TaylorOtwell said:
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Exodus 16


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## TaylorOtwell (Apr 21, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


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Sorry, Exodus 16. Thanks for the correction.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Apr 21, 2008)

The Apostle John calls the day the Lord revealed to him his last book "The Lord's Day". (Rev. 1.10) Also, Christ, speaking of days after His resurrection (in other words New Testament Days) says to His disciples, "Pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath Day" (Matthew 24.20) In this the Lord places His special propriety on that day, calling it His own, and hearkening back to Isaiah 58.13-14:

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath,_ from_ doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking_ thine own_ words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken_ it.

_This passage is full of moral, not ceremonial requirements. It is the "Sabbath" or rest, of the Lord Thy God, in the NT as well as the OT. While it may be true that the command to remember the Sabbath Day is not *explicit* in the NT, it most certainly is *implicit* there as well. I note one other Scripture: In Acts 20, the Apostle Paul arrives at Troas, and we are told he stayed there 7 days. Of that seven days, we have an inspired record only of one, the first day of the week (The Christian Sabbath) when the Disciples came together to break bread (observe the sacrament) and Paul preached. Now, whether Paul preached on other days is not known, but a special note is made of the first day of the week, when the disciples came together for the purpose of breaking bread, and Paul preached--that we *do* know. This, with the other references and practices of Christ and the Disciples, form a strong inferential case for the New Testament Sabbath. And, seeing that we do not bifurcate the Scriptures into two separate books (OT, and NT) this is all that we would expect.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 6, 2008)

Taylor -- You may be interested in adding this to your reading list on the Sabbath: 

William Symington, "The Sabbath: The Grounds of Its Obligation" in Patrick Fairbairn's _Divine Revelation Explained and Vindicated_ (HT: Wes White).


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