# "Chrismon" tree in the sanctuary



## MMasztal (Aug 11, 2009)

I need some advice. My church has a tradition of erecting a Chrismon tree in the sanctuary in December. (The Chrismon tree is essentially a Christmas tree with supposedly Christian symbols hanging on it. But really, it's just another form of syncretism.)

This tradition preceded our current pastor's arrival when the church was a "community church". He also inherited the elders who were in place at the time. This was a few years ago. We now have some Reformed elders in the session and I want to propose that we cease the Chrismon tree tradition.

Am I wrong? I'd appreciate any thoughts regarding whether Chrismon trees are legit and whether your churches use these types of symbols.

Thanks in advance.


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## LawrenceU (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't believe they have a place in the church worship area/sanctuary/auditorium. After three years and a lot of prayer we were able to remove the thing at one congregation I served. It wasn't without collateral damage, however.


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## Scynne (Aug 11, 2009)

'Chrismon'? Yeppers, let's change the name, that'll make it okay. We won't pollute the church like those heathen! We'll pollute it differently.


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## Whitefield (Aug 11, 2009)

Scynne said:


> 'Chrismon'? Yeppers, let's change the name, that'll make it okay. We won't pollute the church like those heathen! We'll pollute it differently.



Michael, I suggest you not approach the elders with Scynne's attitude. 

The last time I got one removed, it was step by step. First I got them to move it out of the sanctuary and into the entryway to the church. Then a couple of years later I got them to remove it. I found the progressive way more effective than the all or nothing approach.


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## TimV (Aug 11, 2009)

For what it's worth, my old pastor Rushdoony loved the idea of a Christmas tree, since it symbolized the Tree of Life. I wouldn't have one in my home for years, but he mellowed me out a bit. Nowadays I personally draw the line at pictures of the Trinity, but I can't imagine my OPC church allowing that.

You most likely have more serious battles to fight, if my instinct serves me, and I'd consider picking your battles really carefully.


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## Hamalas (Aug 11, 2009)

No, "Chrismon" trees are not "legit".  Sounds like another job for.............




The RPW!!!!!!!!!!​


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## Whitefield (Aug 11, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> No, "Chrismon" trees are not "legit".  Sounds like another job for.............
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Michael, I would also suggest you not yell, in your attempt to correct this problem.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 11, 2009)

I personally hate seeing a tree in the sanctuary (or anywhere else in the meetinghouse). It is a distraction. The fantasy of tossing it out a window keeps replaying in my mind when I see one.


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## Hamalas (Aug 11, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> > No, "Chrismon" trees are not "legit".  Sounds like another job for.............
> ...



That's not yelling, it's a dramatic announcer's voice! (Think, Superman...)


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## MMasztal (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the input. I will discuss this issue with some like minded elders prior tot he next meeting. The folks who brought the tree to the church 30 years ago have since left (on bad terms). This may be an opportune moment.

I understand this may be a touchy issue, but our we have to remember who we are worshipping. The church isn't the Elks or local Moose lodge.


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## Curt (Aug 11, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Scynne said:
> 
> 
> > 'Chrismon'? Yeppers, let's change the name, that'll make it okay. We won't pollute the church like those heathen! We'll pollute it differently.
> ...



Same thing I did.

BTW, what kind of vegetation do you use for Kwanza?

-----Added 8/11/2009 at 10:32:07 EST-----



Hamalas said:


> Whitefield said:
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> > Hamalas said:
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Or Bruce Buffer?


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## Whitefield (Aug 11, 2009)

Curt said:


> BTW, what kind of vegetation do you use for Kwanza?



Poison Ivy .. how about you?


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## Curt (Aug 11, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Curt said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, what kind of vegetation do you use for Kwanza?
> ...



Blueberry bushes (low bush). It is Maine, after all.


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## Vonnie Dee (Aug 12, 2009)

It was actually at a Baptist church that I was introduced to a Chrismon tree. I like it. I know this is about church meeting, however, this tree was decorated in a "Hanging of the Greens" ceremony. As each item went up, it's symbolism was explained. It reminds me of the Christian seder meal when every part of the meal points to Christ. We have a Chrismon tree in our home. The church I attend now does not have trees but they do put wreaths up during the holidays. If I was going to a church with a Chrismon tree, I don't think we would leave if someone decided not to do it anymore.

BTW when we celebrate Festivus, I like a golden pole with blue satin ribbon.


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## JennyG (Aug 12, 2009)

Can someone explain please - where does the "mon" part of "Chrismon" come from? I've never heard the word before.


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## LawrenceU (Aug 12, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> Scynne said:
> 
> 
> > 'Chrismon'? Yeppers, let's change the name, that'll make it okay. We won't pollute the church like those heathen! We'll pollute it differently.
> ...



That's basically how I did it as well.

-----Added 8/12/2009 at 07:37:26 EST-----



TimV said:


> For what it's worth, my old pastor Rushdoony loved the idea of a Christmas tree, since it symbolized the Tree of Life. I wouldn't have one in my home for years, but he mellowed me out a bit. Nowadays I personally draw the line at pictures of the Trinity, but I can't imagine my OPC church allowing that.
> 
> You most likely have more serious battles to fight, if my instinct serves me, and I'd consider picking your battles really carefully.



Yep, sometimes there are bigger battles that must be faced first, like getting a solid theological foundation in place.

-----Added 8/12/2009 at 07:38:09 EST-----



Curt said:


> Whitefield said:
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> > Curt said:
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Kudzu here.


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## MMasztal (Aug 12, 2009)

LawrenceU wrote: 

"Yep, sometimes there are bigger battles that must be faced first, like getting a solid theological foundation in place."

Hi Lawrence:

I've been working on that, too with some success. It's been somewhat difficult getting people out of the "community church" mentality, but the other elders are generally supportive.


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## Tim (Aug 12, 2009)

Well, this is a good time to discuss this topic, as tempers flare closer to December.

I think the only symbols we have today are the bread and the wine. To use a tree is akin to suggesting that the symbols and other means God has given us are insufficient to encourage appreciation of the Gospel and to stir our spirits to reverent worship. That is, we need to add to them to make things better. 

Mr. Masztal, since you are an elder, it seems to me your biggest challenge is to decide whether you want to address this now, or if there are more pressing issues, such as the 'theological foundation' that you mention immediately above. 

May the Lord grant you wisdom on these matters.


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## Spinningplates2 (Aug 12, 2009)

Vonnie Dee said:


> BTW *when we celebrate Festivus, I like a golden pole with blue satin ribbon*.



Me too. Serenity NOW!


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## Marrow Man (Aug 12, 2009)

Vonnie Dee said:


> BTW when we celebrate Festivus, I like a golden pole with blue satin ribbon.



And Festivus is the perfect time for the airing of grievances and feats of strength... 

Michael, you are absolutely in the right, but you have also gotten some very sound advice (particularly Lance) above. If you need any "ARP inside baseball" advice, you know you can PM me.


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## ericfromcowtown (Aug 12, 2009)

MMasztal said:


> I need some advice. My church has a tradition of erecting a Chrismon tree in the sanctuary in December. (The Chrismon tree is essentially a Christmas tree with supposedly Christian symbols hanging on it. But really, it's just another form of syncretism.)
> 
> This tradition preceded our current pastor's arrival when the church was a "community church". He also inherited the elders who were in place at the time. This was a few years ago. We now have some Reformed elders in the session and I want to propose that we cease the Chrismon tree tradition.
> 
> ...



I would much rather have a Christmas tree in the sanctuary than a Christmon tree. I hate Christian re-branding and cutesy attempts to justify secular traditions. If one has qualms about a Christmas tree at church, then don't have one. If one doesn't have qualms about a Christmas tree at church, then have one and don't try to explain it away.

It's similar to the harvest festivals some churches put on, where they allow their children to dress up at the church and eat candy the weekend after or before Halloween.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 12, 2009)

ericfromcowtown said:


> MMasztal said:
> 
> 
> > I need some advice. My church has a tradition of erecting a Chrismon tree in the sanctuary in December. (The Chrismon tree is essentially a Christmas tree with supposedly Christian symbols hanging on it. But really, it's just another form of syncretism.)
> ...



I agree. "We dont like to be like the 'sinners' around us so we will do the exact same thing they do and call it something different" What a great attitude. (Not attacking anyone directly just saying)


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## Zenas (Aug 12, 2009)

I say burn the tree and let the children roast marshmallows over the flame. It would teach the children about what happens to idol worshippers and entice them with the promise of smores. /sarcasm


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## Tripel (Aug 12, 2009)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I would much rather have a Christmas tree in the sanctuary than a Christmon tree. I hate Christian re-branding and cutesy attempts to justify secular traditions. If one has qualms about a Christmas tree at church, then don't have one. If one doesn't have qualms about a Christmas tree at church, then have one and don't try to explain it away.
> 
> It's similar to the harvest festivals some churches put on, where they allow their children to dress up at the church and eat candy the weekend after or before Halloween.



Exactly. Well said. If you're re-branding it, you are acknowledging there is a problem with it's "secular" form and that adding a splash of Jesus will make it all better.

That is popular contemporary Christianity in a nutshell. Sad.

I am one of those who doesn't see a problem with a Christmas tree or Christmas being celebrated by the church. Bring on the Christmas tree, and keep it's name.


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## Zenas (Aug 12, 2009)

So Reformation day, held on Reformation day, where children dress up as Biblical characters to celebrate the Reformation and play games is bad because churches are presenting a Christian alternative to participation in a pagan holiday? Mind you, this is not "re-branding", it's something entirely seperate and alternative celebrating something entirely different.

I love you guys and say this with Christian love and charity, but you're whacked.

Oh yeah, I do Christmas trees. Burn me at the stake, I love the smell of a Douglas Fir in the morning.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Aug 12, 2009)

Zenas said:


> So Reformation day, held on Reformation day, where children dress up as Biblical characters to celebrate the Reformation and play games is bad because churches are presenting a Christian alternative to participation in a pagan holiday? Mind you, this is not "re-branding", it's something entirely seperate and alternative celebrating something entirely different.
> 
> I love you guys and say this with Christian love and charity, but you're whacked.
> 
> Oh yeah, I do Christmas trees. Burn me at the stake, I love the smell of a Douglas Fir in the morning.




Shoot, I just want some candy... This, as you said, is not simply rebranding but is entirely seperate from Halloween. Now a Church with a "Fall Festival" on Oct 31 where kids come dressed as other things and get lots of candy and say "Halloween is evil".... really?


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## Tripel (Aug 12, 2009)

Zenas said:


> So Reformation day, held on Reformation day, where children dress up as Biblical characters to celebrate the Reformation and play games is bad because churches are presenting a Christian alternative to participation in a pagan holiday? Mind you, this is not "re-branding", it's something entirely seperate and alternative celebrating something entirely different.
> 
> I love you guys and say this with Christian love and charity, but you're whacked.



I doubt anyone here is against a Reformation Day celebration. I'm all for it, as it's a great day.

I do think it's unfortunate that it shares a date with Halloween, and I'm not even anti-Halloween. If a church decides to host an event with costumes and candy on Oct 31 and call it a Reformation party, I don't think it's _wrong_. I think it's _immature_, but not wrong. Just call it what it is. 
It is preferable, in my opinion, to do a reformation party sans all the Halloween stuff, then go home later that night to do trick-or-treating.


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## Zenas (Aug 12, 2009)

My post directed toward Tripel was too harsh and I retract it accordingly with my apologies.


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## MMasztal (Aug 12, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> I don't believe they have a place in the church worship area/sanctuary/auditorium. After three years and a lot of prayer we were able to remove the thing at one congregation I served. It wasn't without collateral damage, however.



Well, I already started this with the "Easter Egg Hunt" on Resurrection Sunday. It hasn't been ceased, but it did get moved to Saturday. Hopefully........


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## Tripel (Aug 12, 2009)

Zenas said:


> So it's preferrable to do the immature thing?
> 
> Is it your argument that it's *more mature* to allow your children to dress up like ghosts, zombies, and devils to go demand candy from neighbors, while celebrating the dead? Contrasted with the *less mature* option of having a Reformation Day where your children dress up as Biblical characters to celebrate the advent of the Reformation and the rebellion against Romish Poppery?
> 
> I'm content with my immaturity, you go enjoy the mature life sir.



First, I didn't say anything about dressing up like ghosts, zombies, devils, and demanding candy from anyone. 

Second, I don't have a problem with a Reformation celebration that is all about the Reformation. What I find immature is to have a "Reformation" party, but everyone is dressed up as lions, ninjas, superheroes, and cheerleaders. 

Perhaps I shouldn't have commented when you brought up Reformation Day, because now we're getting off-topic.


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## Zenas (Aug 12, 2009)

When our Reformation day is announced, it is made explicit that children should be dressed as a Biblical character with an accompanying Bible verse. 

It's always quite interesting though, as some of the folks in our congregation ignore the instruction because "they've been memebers forever", and also invite their friends and extended family. One woman who was either a friend or relative of someone in the congregation showed up as what I can only describe as a "hooker". It was bad, *really bad*. She was embarassed and rightfully so.


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## smhbbag (Aug 12, 2009)

> It's always quite interesting though, as some of the folks in our congregation ignore the instruction because \"they've been memebers forever\", and also invite their friends and extended family. One woman who was either a friend or relative of someone in the congregation showed up as what I can only describe as a \"hooker\". It was bad, really bad. She was embarassed and rightfully so.



You should put out a notice that the only acceptable non-Biblical characters are: lady-bug, robot, lion, and cowboy. 

[video=youtube;5PqLA_SfSOM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PqLA_SfSOM&feature=channel[/video]


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## JennyG (Aug 12, 2009)

What's the difference between a Christmas tree and a Chrismon tree??


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## White Knight (Aug 12, 2009)

"It's always quite interesting though, as some of the folks in our congregation ignore the instruction because "they've been memebers forever", and also invite their friends and extended family. One woman who was either a friend or relative of someone in the congregation showed up as what I can only describe as a "hooker". It was bad, really bad. She was embarassed and rightfully so. "


I had a good friend come with his daughter who wanted to be a ballerina?...When I saw her, I whispered to my friend and said, "harlot?"...she was 4.

-----Added 8/12/2009 at 01:37:09 EST-----

JennyG, do you trust wiki?


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## JML (Aug 12, 2009)

JennyG said:


> What's the difference between a Christmas tree and a Chrismon tree??



One has secular idols on it and the other has religious idols on it.


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## JennyG (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks guys.


> JennyG, do you trust wiki?


Silly me, not to have thought of that.... but since you ask, the answer is no, not an inch.
Religious idols? secular idols?
-sounds like a good answer, but I'm still mystified. Which is which, and what does "Chrismon" even MEAN?

-----Added 8/12/2009 at 01:50:11 EST-----

Wiki sheds no real light on the name, which is partly what I was interested in. As for the thing, it sounds not a lot different, except that it sounds worse on the whole. I think I'd rather stick to a bit of mindless tinsel to jolly up the church.


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## LawrenceU (Aug 12, 2009)

A Chrismon tree is decorated with things like anchors, seashells, crosses, XP symbols and the like. The ones I have seen are almost always either white or gold decorations. (Normally, they seem to be cheap styrofoam with gold glitter  )


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## JML (Aug 12, 2009)

JennyG said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> 
> > JennyG, do you trust wiki?
> ...




My parent's church has a chrismon tree that they put up every year and it has crosses, what they consider to be angels, statues of what they consider to be Christ, and other symbols.

The christmas tree instead has the secular idol of santa claus, reindeer, etc. etc.

From dictionary.com

chrismon
- 2 dictionary results
chris⋅mon
  /ˈkrɪzmɒn/ 

–noun
Chi-Rho.

the Christian monogram () made from the first two letters of the Greek word for Christ.
Also called chrismon.

Origin:
first two letters of Gk Christós Christ. See chi, rho


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## Whitefield (Aug 12, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> JennyG said:
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> 
> > What's the difference between a Christmas tree and a Chrismon tree??
> ...



secular idol :: as in a non-worshipped idol?
religious idol :: Christmas trees with little golden calves?
American idol :: would these be allowed on a Weihnachtsbaum?
Billy Idol :: don't even want to think about these on my Christmas tree.


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## JML (Aug 12, 2009)

Whitefield said:


> John Lanier said:
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> > JennyG said:
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My point between differentiating between secular and religious (although it would all be religious in some way) was to distinguish between symbols that are considered religious (angels, statues of Christ) and symbols that are not considered to be religious (santa claus)


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## Whitefield (Aug 12, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> Whitefield said:
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> > John Lanier said:
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I appreciate your point, but not all symbols are idols.


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## JennyG (Aug 12, 2009)

I get it. Thanks.
Our church has a Christmas tree, with non-symbolic shiny things to make it pretty.
At harvest we decorate with fruit and veg, etc, for the harvest thanksgiving, and the rest of the year with flowers in season.
It's good to use beautiful things in that way.


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## MMasztal (Aug 12, 2009)

John Lanier said:


> JennyG said:
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> > What's the difference between a Christmas tree and a Chrismon tree??
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## coramdeo (Aug 12, 2009)

and I thought Chrismons passed out of use in the 70's....


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## Edward (Aug 12, 2009)

Zenas said:


> One woman who was either a friend or relative of someone in the congregation showed up as what I can only describe as a "hooker". It was bad, *really bad*. She was embarassed and rightfully so.



I don't see what the problem was with that. Just pin on a piece of paper that said Joshua 1:2 All of the rules would have been satisfied.


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## reformedminister (Aug 12, 2009)

If you have a problem with it then bring it up with the session. However, do some research on the subject first. Also, do other ARP churches have them? If they don't then bring it up. If they do, then don't mention it. Personally, I don't have a problem with it but I am not biased either and would like to give you some sound advice. We all have to admit that the Christmas season has a lot of baggage that often blurrs the centrality of it's meaning.


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## AThornquist (Aug 12, 2009)

I have never heard of a Chrismon tree and don't foresee being interested in one at any point in the near future. I'm all for the Christmas tree in the foyer (not in the worship service so as not to distract). Oh yeah, and Easter egg hunts are fun too. My wicked little sisters just _pretend_ to not understand that they are imitating wicked pagans by finding little plastic eggs with candy. Depravity runs so deep...


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## Vonnie Dee (Aug 12, 2009)

Here are some things that I put on my Chrismon tree: crosses, doves, candles, onrnaments that have various names of Christ on them, lights. None of the items that go on my tree have glitter on them. They are all white or gold. Because these items are not readily available I usually have them made if I want to add a symbol to the tree. 

At our church we celebrate reformation day. We do allow Biblical costumes, however, most people try to wear the clothes of the reformers, if they dress at all. There are usually a lot of monks and peasant women in attendence.


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## Scottish Lass (Aug 12, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> Also, do other ARP churches have them? If they don't then bring it up. If they do, then don't mention it.



Yes, there are ARP churches that do. Tim has often encountered the argument that we should do something because other churches (ARP or otherwise) do. Is this sound reasoning, or should one appeal to the Standards and/or RPW or Directory of Worship (whichever applies)?


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## Marrow Man (Aug 12, 2009)

Some ARP churches do it because they have seen other (non-Reformed) churches do it and/or because of some old tradition which no one can remember how it got started (but see reason #1). The RPW tends to take a back seat to tradition and popularity.


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## reformedminister (Aug 13, 2009)

Scottish Lass said:


> reformedminister said:
> 
> 
> > Also, do other ARP churches have them? If they don't then bring it up. If they do, then don't mention it.
> ...



I think my suggestion is misunderstood. My point was if the ARP doesn't allow them, then that is argument to do away with the practice. I then said if other churches allow them, then *don't bring it up in the session* (That is, don't bring up the fact that other ARP churches do it, but do bring the subject up to do away with the practice).


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## Scottish Lass (Aug 13, 2009)

reformedminister said:


> [
> I think my suggestion is misunderstood. My point was if the ARP doesn't allow them, then that is argument to do away with the practice. I then said if other churches allow them, then *don't bring it up in the session* (That is, don't bring up the fact that other ARP churches do it, but do bring the subject up to do away with the practice).



Ah, I misunderstood the pronoun--I thought you were advising him to avoid the whole subject and simply put up with the tree in silence.


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