# Never, Never, Never Shake a Prophetess



## Theogenes

I'm sure you're all familiar with the "Never, Never, Never Shake A Baby" campaign to prevent Shaken Baby syndrome (brain damage). Well, it seems like we need a "Never, Never, Never Shake a Prophetess" campaign to help prevent the same brain damage (although it may be too late!).

Here's a clip of the supposed commissioning of Todd Bentley as an Apostle:
[video=youtube;Gjl5wKso9eU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjl5wKso9eU[/video]

Jim

PS, You might want to have your anti-nausea medication available!


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## Jon Peters

Very embarrassing. I feel very sorry for that lady.


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## Josiah

This sort of stuff seems to be predominant here in WA State where I live. I meet people all the time that are charismatic. This almost reminds me of the euphoric pagan prophecies of the oracle of delphi.

 but...

When I was a boxboy at the local grociery store (I was seventeen) I helped an elderly woman out with here groceries and as I was walking here to the car, she got this glazed over look in her eye and she started shaking her head and humming. I was very scared. I asked her if she was alright several times and even offered to go in and get help (as most would during a medical emergency), but she said, while still humming and shaking, "No, Im fine Im just in the spirit!". I stayed with her for a little less than twenty minuets because she seemed to be almost unable to drive off let alone close the door to her car in the state she was in.


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## ericfromcowtown

Is there a chiropractor in the house! My neck hurts just watching it.


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## Davidius

Goodness! That can't be good for her neck.


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## BobVigneault

One hand grenade would get them all.

"...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."


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## Seb

BobVigneault said:


> "...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."





Why am I reminded of Jimmy Carter all of a sudden?


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## kvanlaan

Wow, that was odd. And Todd was the one on the ground, I'm guessing. Probably the only time he didn't kick anyone in the head or cause tumors to explode during his 'ministry'.

If they'd only left him there on the ground.

(BTW - the sound that that woman made was really bizarre, kinda like a locomotive but then again not. Interesting people, worthy of a whole team of psychologists.)


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## TimV

Can't we add an emoticon that shows shaking to emphasize a point in our posts?


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## BobVigneault

From "Yahoo Answers"


> Question: Are being "slain in the Spirit", shaking/convulsing, collapsing, laughing hysterically, etc...?
> Scriptural as to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit? Are these actions of God or are they man-made delusions?
> 
> Viki, I'm not asking about the validity of the Holy Spirit's manifestations; I'm asking if this is how the Holy Spirit does manifest and if the Bible specifically mentions these experiences.
> 
> Answer: I believe that the vast majority of the things we see Pentecostal people doing today are completely false.
> 
> I traveled in those circles once upon a time, and I could tell you a lot of stories about man's ability to deceive himself.
> 
> When you have pastors who have been equipped with false doctrine and who have very little accountability, and a congregation with weak or no Bible knowledge, the result is an environment where error flourishes. The pastor is put on a pedestal and the modern 'manifestations of the Holy Spirit' are coveted like status symbols---proof that God is with you or that you are really spiritual. Although you will never hear a Pentecostal disagree with the fact that all things need to be tested against Scripture, the fact of the matter is that they simply don't do it. Between their trust in their pastor and their feeble understanding of the Scriptures, Pentecostals remain blissfully and ignorantly content. They assume that they are being ministered to by the Holy Spirit, and that they need nothing more. They can't see that they are actually caught up in a vicious circle of self deception---feeding off of their own emotional and ecstatic expressions.



I thought this person did a nice job with his/her answer.


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## turmeric

She was kinda soundin' like a rattler startin' to get riled.

I look at these, I guess, for the same reason some people stare at traffic accidents; I'm sure it's not admirable.


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## JonathanHunt

BobVigneault said:


> One hand grenade would get them all.
> 
> "...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."



No, the hand grenade was for the deadly killer rabbit. This is far more gross!


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## BobVigneault

Here's a weird one. Every time he says the name "Bob" he gets anointed. Conversely, every time I hear him say the name "Bob" I want to castrate him.
[video=youtube;3LzbLUQWodk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LzbLUQWodk&feature=related[/video]

This man is another clear justification for the praying of an imprecatory prayer. He is blasphemous, he causes thousands to stumble, he uses the Lord's name in vain, he does great violence to worship, he steals in God's name, he bears false witness and he is covetous. He worships angels and calls on demons. He is voluntarily in league with Satan and is an enemy of God. I pray the Lord would silence this enemy soon.


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## turmeric

I listened very carefully...and I'm sure he never actually said "Bawb"! so you're okay.

That guy is a menace! I'm embarrased that members of my species are that suggestible!!


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## TheocraticMonarchist

How's this for the 'end times'; the Pope is the Anti Christ and the false prophet comes out of the charasmatics?

Do you think we could persuade 'ol MacArthur to write another book?


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## Reformingstudent

Nuff said.


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## MrMerlin777

These folks are worse than the old time street mountebanks and snake oil salesmen.


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## panta dokimazete

{{{looks for vomit smiley...}}}


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## panta dokimazete

BobVigneault said:


> This man is another clear justification for the praying of an imprecatory prayer. He is blasphemous, he causes thousands to stumble, he uses the Lord's name in vain, he does great violence to worship, he steals in God's name, he bears false witness and he is covetous. He worships angels and calls on demons. He is voluntarily in league with Satan and is an enemy of God. I pray the Lord would silence this enemy soon.


AMEN and AMEN!!


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## govols

Hope she has ball bearings on her neck.


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## rjlynam

This must have been a reformed bunch. I didn't see any poisonous snakes being handled.


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## Southern Presbyterian




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## toddpedlar

shake, shake, shake... shake your HEAD-y!


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## toddpedlar

in all seriousness, I have to agree with Bawb... (not to be confused with Bob of the anointing)

This character, whose name I am ashamed to share, looks to be one of the most awful, blasphemous shysters I've ever seen... and I will tell you my desire for him to be struck down isn't probably *entirely* righteous. He is selling stuff from the pit of Hell, and seems as far as I can see to be nothing but the spawn of Satan.


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## Southern Presbyterian

toddpedlar said:


> in all seriousness, I have to agree with Bawb... (not to be confused with Bob of the anointing)
> 
> This character, whose name I am ashamed to share, looks to be one of the most awful, blasphemous shysters I've ever seen... and I will tell you my desire for him to be struck down isn't probably *entirely* righteous. He is selling stuff from the pit of Hell, and seems as far as I can see to be nothing but the spawn of Satan.



Don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel. 

BTW, I agree entirely.


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## pilgrim3970

wow...that just strikes me as demonic


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## pilgrim3970

BobVigneault said:


> Here's a weird one. Every time he says the name "Bob" he gets anointed. Conversely, every time I hear him say the name "Bob" I want to castrate him.




 oh... now that's funny!!


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## Ivan

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> How's this for the 'end times'; the Pope is the Anti Christ and the false prophet comes out of the charasmatics?
> 
> Do you think we could persuade 'ol MacArthur to write another book?



I can see him warming up his laptop.


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## DMcFadden

Can any of you tell me truly that you still want to waste your time studying Calvin, Turretin, Hodge, Bavinck, or Warfield when all you need is an unhinged C4 - C7 vertabrae and the ability to speak during violent shaking without a Doppler effect distortion to your enunciation?

Being reared in broad evangelicalism breeds a kind of "live and let live" tolerance of a fairly wide range of expressions of the faith. THIS, however, is enough to put me in Rich's camp on charismania. What does a non-cessationist like Grudem do with this kind of phenomena???


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## panta dokimazete

DMcFadden said:


> What does a non-cessationist like Grudem do with this kind of phenomena???



Rebukes it as from the pits of Hell, I imagine...


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## Puritan Sailor

"The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak..." 1 Cor 14:16

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him." Deut 13:1-4


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## kvanlaan

I was just showing this to my wife and noticed that not only are they using His name in vain, they are 'channeling' the Spirit. The phrases "Todd, I have chosen you..." pretty much makes her the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit by their reckoning.

We're not only talking about imprecatory prayer, but serious lightning strikes (somehow) inside the building.

This is hard core blasphemy. We couldn't finish watching it.


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## toddpedlar

kvanlaan said:


> I was just showing this to my wife and noticed that not only are they using His name in vain, they are 'channeling' the Spirit. The phrases "Todd, I have chosen you..." pretty much makes her the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit by their reckoning.



"Channeling" is *exactly* the verb that struck me yesterday when I watched the 5 minutes of this video I could stomach. Looked to me no different than J.Z. Knight channeling Ramtha.


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## Stephen

Jon Peters said:


> Very embarrassing. I feel very sorry for that lady.



Brother, I do not think she was the least embarrased. I do not feel sorry for her. She is an absolute crackpot.


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## Stephen

BobVigneault said:


> Here's a weird one. Every time he says the name "Bob" he gets anointed. Conversely, every time I hear him say the name "Bob" I want to castrate him.
> YouTube - Todd Bentley "Bobbing" for the "anointing"
> 
> This man is another clear justification for the praying of an imprecatory prayer. He is blasphemous, he causes thousands to stumble, he uses the Lord's name in vain, he does great violence to worship, he steals in God's name, he bears false witness and he is covetous. He worships angels and calls on demons. He is voluntarily in league with Satan and is an enemy of God. I pray the Lord would silence this enemy soon.





Is this guy for real? Give me a break. My name is not Bob and I would like to castrate him


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## Stephen

MrMerlin777 said:


> These folks are worse than the old time street mountebanks and snake oil salesmen.


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## skellam

That sound she kept making at the beginning of her theatrics reminded me of a rattlesnake or a serpent. Hmmm.


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## etexas

BobVigneault said:


> Here's a weird one. Every time he says the name "Bob" he gets anointed. Conversely, every time I hear him say the name "Bob" I want to castrate him.
> YouTube - Todd Bentley "Bobbing" for the "anointing"
> 
> This man is another clear justification for the praying of an imprecatory prayer. He is blasphemous, he causes thousands to stumble, he uses the Lord's name in vain, he does great violence to worship, he steals in God's name, he bears false witness and he is covetous. He worships angels and calls on demons. He is voluntarily in league with Satan and is an enemy of God. I pray the Lord would silence this enemy soon.


 Bob-Cat! You Slay me!


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## Puritan Sailor

toddpedlar said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just showing this to my wife and noticed that not only are they using His name in vain, they are 'channeling' the Spirit. The phrases "Todd, I have chosen you..." pretty much makes her the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit by their reckoning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Channeling" is *exactly* the verb that struck me yesterday when I watched the 5 minutes of this video I could stomach. Looked to me no different than J.Z. Knight channeling Ramtha.
Click to expand...


I found the resemblance rather striking also. Reminds me of pagan witch doctor rituals.


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## BlackCalvinist

Someone over on HCR posted another Todd Bentley clip a while ago.

As I stated over there:



> the more I study trends in church history over the past 2000 years, the more I wonder how 'this age' (1880-2040) will look to believers 1000 years from now.
> 
> You know, we look back at 325-381 (only 56 years) and it looks like a blip on the map of church history to us. 'Okay, there was a short period of time when the Arians overran much of the church. Small blip. Trinitarianism prevailed.'
> 
> But if I were LIVING back during that time, I'd probably think that the church was going straight to hell in a handbasket. 50+ years of seeing non-Trinitarians front and center could - from MY perspective - make it seem like all this 'Nicea' talk is just a big ado over nothing.
> 
> I look at all the hotmess pentecostal and charismatic movement stuff going on today and hear folk talk like 'this is how it's always been'. No...  it's not how it's always been. And it probably won't be like this in another 100 years. There are always theological blips and abberations on the map of church history that flourish for a time, but eventually die out.
> 
> With the 'awakening' that seems to be happening in many communities now - where folks are abandoning 'churchianity' and the mechanations of televangelists and searching for biblical truth, we might be seeing the beginnings of it dying out.
> 
> I look at movements like Sovereign Grace Ministries and smile. They have gradually moved from being solidly in the Third Wave/Holy Laughter thing back in 93-95 to sound biblical theological instruction a little over a decade later. I look at some folk on this board and see them move from going to Joel Osteen's church to looking for real biblical instruction.
> 
> It's just a matter of time. God's doing His work.....the gates of hell and entertainment mixed with emotionalism and devoid of biblical truth will not prevail. They never do.


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## D. Paul

DMcFadden said:


> ... and the ability to speak during violent shaking without a Doppler effect distortion to your enunciation?



I could not believe she spoke just as plainly during the convulsion as before. I was literally and immediately set back in my chair!


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## CDM

Take heart saints of God in Rev 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, *where the beast and the false prophet are*, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

I couldn't watch all of it. I find this kind of stuff unnerving. Little wonder I lean towards high church Calvinism!


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## Quickened

I made it to 1:14 before i was too disgusted to continue.


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## Mushroom

> I found the resemblance rather striking also. Reminds me of pagan witch doctor rituals.


Yeah. I kept expecting her to bite off the head of a chicken or something. Looks like a voodoo trance.


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## Reformingstudent

Is she some kind of Bond girl maybe? You know, shaken not stirred


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih

There is nothing in there impressive.

There is nothing in there that is righteous.

There is nothing in there that shows "order".

There is nothing in there that indicates that this is from God.

In fact it looks like it is off a horror movie.

How can it be from God?


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## Reformingstudent

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> There is nothing in there impressive.
> 
> There is nothing in there that is righteous.
> 
> There is nothing in there that shows "order".
> 
> There is nothing in there that indicates that this is from God.
> 
> In fact it looks like it is off a horror movie.
> 
> How can it be from God?



Exactly. Good point.


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## Stomata leontôn

I have Restless Leg Syndrome.

Am I an Apostle?


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## panta dokimazete

Peter H said:


> I have Restless Leg Syndrome.
> 
> Am I an Apostle?


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## turmeric

Todd Bently himself vi-i-i-i-bra-a-a-a-ates when he talks sometimes.


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## panta dokimazete

joshua said:


> What irks me are Christians, even "Calvinistic" Christians, who won't just outright denounce this "revival." I just read a report from a Sovereign Grace pastor named Jesse Phillips, who went to one of the meetings. It was on Adrian Warnock's blog. It was just so soft, and easy. He seemed to be advocating a lot of caution.
> 
> Well, let me tell you something. I have no reserve calling this garbage what it is. Blasphemous, ungodly, tomfoolery.
> 
> These guys are snakes. This "revival" is wicked. The poor people sucked up into it, due to their ignorance, are deceived. So instead of using caution, how 'bout a little Holy Ghost, Righteously angered, outcry!



Link, please, I can't find it!


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## panta dokimazete

I am reading through all the links - found this interesting:



> On the issue of excess and judging the legitimacy of the revival, Strader made the comment, ‘Todd [Bentley] and I know that not everything that’s happening here is of God. There’s a whole lot of flesh going on here as well.’ He then warned the group that if they saw anyone acting out in the flesh they would kick them out. Of course, he said, the surest sign of someone in the flesh was someone refusing to participate, writing off everything as demonic.


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## panta dokimazete

joshua said:


> What irks me are Christians, even "Calvinistic" Christians, who won't just outright denounce this "revival." I just read a report from a Sovereign Grace pastor named Jesse Phillips, who went to one of the meetings. It was on Adrian Warnock's blog. It was just so soft, and easy. He seemed to be advocating a lot of caution.
> 
> Well, let me tell you something. I have no reserve calling this garbage what it is. Blasphemous, ungodly, tomfoolery.
> 
> These guys are snakes. This "revival" is wicked. The poor people sucked up into it, due to their ignorance, are deceived. So instead of using caution, how 'bout a little Holy Ghost, Righteously angered, outcry!



I concur with your assessment, it reads like there is a lot of repressed wish-fulfillment - I am not a "classical" cessationist, but this stuff is certainly not of God - much more Man-centered - which explains the attitude of expectancy - misdirected toward "generating" experience than truly "waiting for the Lord".


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## hollandmin

I suppose this doesn't make us Reformed Baptists look so bad anymore 

Seriously, If there was ever a time when I thought that perhaps the sign gifts still were for today, this would end it for me. This is the obvious outcome of not closing the cannon. Men are totally depraved and if left to their own devices. . . . well. This is what we get when we give just an inch outside the closed cannon door.

I actually watched the next video after this one and I had to turn it off do to the fact that my computer was in imminent danger of exploding along with myself.

I pray that God has mercy on their souls. . . .


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## panta dokimazete

joshua said:


> adrianwarnock.com: Jesse Phillips Gives His Final Conclusions on the Lakeland, Florida 'Revival Meetings' with Todd Bentley



Dude should have read Pyromaniacs before he wrote his review...


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## puritan lad

Been there, done that (well, not exactly that). Thank God for Reformation...


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## shackleton

One truly sad thing about this is, non-Christians look at this and associate all Christians with this kind of behavior and decide they do not want to be one. Church has become just another place to get a good emotional high, there is not substance there. 

I remember the chaps on White Horse Inn talking about the Finney revivals, which were similar to this, and stated that afterwords when it had blown over the towns it was in became really jaded to the gospel. The areas became very liberal and are still liberal today. So is that what is going to be the result of all this? Once they get to where they cannot top the thing they did last week or last year? Or the average person in the pew who is not vibrating but just sitting there will eventually get tired of this, get burned out and jaded and leave the church for good?


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## Reformed Baptist

Question for all: When you saw this, did your heart and mind just "react" or did you sense the love of God for these people to deliver them from their error? 

I was into this movement for a season. If you look in the background, there is a man with white hair and a white beard. That is Rick Joyner. (pretty sure) And I was a part of his church in Charolotte, NC for a few years. I graduated with a certificate in ministry from their "School of the Spirit" many years ago. I was a true, born again Christian in that movement, just caught in error. There are a lot of true Christians in that movement caught in error. Let us love our brethren. 

One of the things that God used to save me from it was the humble attitude and love of an Independant Fundamental Baptist preacher. It wasn't his doctrine that impressed me...it was the character of Christ he showed by his reactions, words, facial expressions, et. 

Calling these souls names will not help them out of what they are caught in. But if you have an opportunity, lovingly showing them Christ, by His grace, His truth will set them free as it did me. Teach them by your example, and if you have a chance, teach them Sola Scriptura. 

Also to add, many of these are the very elect of God for whom Christ died. If God would give us opportunity, let us love them as such. 

-RB


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## BobVigneault

Geoff, I take the attitude that scripture takes. My heart goes out with sadness and compassion for the lost sheep that have been trapped by these people. But for the teachers, the so-called shepherds I make no apology in saying it would be better that they have a mill stone tied around their necks and thrown into the sea. May they be struck mute before they cause one more of God's children to stumble.


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## Reformed Baptist

Let me share what it was like in that movement for me. 

In the beginning, there was great excitement and expectation of the immenance of God. He wasn't someone far off, but someone near and something everyone experienced together. There was an ever present expectation that the Lord would do something wonderful for His people. 

The men and women of importance were quickly recognzied. And there accompanied a fear of them that was not godly. One became afraid to question or speak against by way of criticism anything that went on. 

There was very, very little Bible teaching. In the school I was in it was boasted that if we wanted to study the Bible we should go to a Bible school. The school we were in was a school of ministry. I should have taken their advice, but you see now the depth of deception. 

This led me to a great famine for the Word of God. I sought the Word of the Lord in the prophesies given by others or those who were called prophets or apostles. In the church I attended, MorningStar, there were "prophetic booths" set up at the end of every service. A person could go and get a number and wait for their turn to go into the booth where 2 or 3 people, men and women, where there to pray for you and prophesy to you. This is how I often sought the will of God for my life. 

The experience was miserable for the most part. I was confused most of the time about God's will for me. I did read the Scriptures on my own and prayed often. After 2+ years in this movement the Spirit of God opened my eyes to the falsehood of the movement. There were two events that happened. The frist was Rick Joyner publically saying he saw God the Father. Much of the teaching there to an untrained person is subtlley unbiblical. But this was blatant and sent a shockwave through me. 

The second was from reading 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 

All SCRIPTURE is sufficient. My school taught me that they were a school of ministry to equip students for the work of the ministry, so leave your Bibles at home! The Scripture IS what is given by God so that the man of God may be fully equipped for all good works. The Scripture is sufficient. Sola Scriptura! It was this that shattered the whole philosophy of the school and ministry of this church for me and I took my family out of it and began daily to search and study the Scriptures. 

Hopefully this can help some of you understand those who are caught in a movement like this. Pray for them. If God gives you chance, show them Christ in the Scriptures, because they are being led away from Him by other means, which are ungodly and do not lead to Jesus. 

-RB

PS. Sorry for the bad English. Do 3 things at once. I will edit it later. lol


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## Reformed Baptist

BobVigneault said:


> Geoff, I take the attitude that scripture takes. My heart goes out with sadness and compassion for the lost sheep that have been trapped by these people. But for the teachers, the so-called shepherds I make no apology in saying it would be better that they have a mill stone tied around their necks and thrown into the sea. May they be struck mute before they cause one more of God's children to stumble.



Most likely they will not be struck mute. But you are wealthy. You are full. You have good meat and vegetables, but those folks are eating stale bread and drinking from cesspools...and they don't even know it. 

The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord. I am sure there are folks out there trying to reach these people. I am prob not going to try to start a ministry to them. But as the Lord gives us opportunity, if the Lord gives you an opportunity, I pray that He give you some words for them to warn them about what they are involved with and point them back to Christ. 

RB


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## panta dokimazete

Reformed Baptist said:


> The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.



Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the "ordination".

I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.


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## BobVigneault

I agree Panting Donkey Machete,.... huh, I better stick to JD. I have a great burden for the lost but sometimes it would just be better for the glory stealing Herods to be eaten out by worms or the Annanias' to drop dead on the spot. As long as God is glorified I'm at peace.


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## panta dokimazete

BobVigneault said:


> Panting Donkey Machete


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## Reformed Baptist

panta dokimazete said:


> Reformed Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the "ordination".
> 
> I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.
Click to expand...



Do you love her? How much do you know about this movment to understand that their concept of ordination is in any fashion the same as yours? Do you feel compassion for her? I do. I have in my hear the love of God for her. As I do all those in that movement and who are decieved by it. It is the kind of rhetoric I see on these boards, and they do see it from time to time, that helps keep them in. 

God has nothing to do with what is going on in that service. Are you also praying for God to kill Jehovah Witnesses? Mormons? Who also blashpheme in their abominations before the Lord? 

I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.


----------



## panta dokimazete

Also - Geoff - praise God that you were working out your own salvation with fear and trembling and that God gave you discernment. My spirit is truly grieved over the many that are still trapped or newly caught up in this mess.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

BobVigneault said:


> I agree Panting Donkey Machete,.... huh, I better stick to JD. I have a great burden for the lost but sometimes it would just be better for the glory stealing Herods to be eaten out by worms or the Annanias' to drop dead on the spot. As long as God is glorified I'm at peace.



I did not see, nor do I see in the video, anything that smacks of glory stealing or lying to the Holy Spirit of something they promised to give but would hold back. But may God be glorified in all things. Mocking these people and calling them names and calling for their destruction, in what I have seen on these threads, does not in my opinion glorify God.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

panta dokimazete said:


> Also - Geoff - praise God that you were working out your own salvation with fear and trembling and that God gave you discernment. My spirit is truly grieved over the many that are still trapped or newly caught up in this mess.



I am glad to hear that brother. It grieves my heart as well.


----------



## panta dokimazete

RB said:


> I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.



If she were only an enemy against me, I would certainly follow the scriptural mandate and pray for her despite my offense, but I believe the Psalmic template of imprecatory prayer is appropriate if she is a willing authority/leader.

Even in deception, she is culpable. Even though my spirit is grieved for her.


----------



## panta dokimazete

And yes, I love her as my neighbor.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

panta dokimazete said:


> I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she were only an enemy against me, I would certainly follow the scriptural mandate and pray for her despite my offense, but I believe the Psalmic template of imprecatory prayer is appropriate if she is a willing authority/leader.
> 
> Even in deception, she is culpable. Even though my spirit is grieved for her.
Click to expand...


I am glad that when I was the enemy of God, He did not set His heart on my destruction. Nor can we know if this woman for certain is marked out for destruction. So, while you in your prayers are imprecating, I in mine will be supplicating.


----------



## caddy

Peter H said:


> I have Restless Leg Syndrome.
> 
> Am I an Apostle?


 
ROFL !

This is too funny. 

I have this too, or so my wife tells me! Mabye we are the two witnesses in Revelations....


----------



## Reformed Baptist

joshua said:


> Ditto to Bob and Dog Machete Pantibulatorer.
> 
> My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck. This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence. May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.



This kind of callous response helped, I believe, keep me in the movement longer than needed. Your words are mere fleshly persecution of the real work of God in their eyes. Remember my brother, the anger of man (even if he think it be right) does not bring about the righteousness of God. 

Their false doctrine ought not to be treated lightly, I agree. But all you have done in this reply of yours, is show how you would just be angry with them. It will not work. It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them. It was not his way with me. Yes brother, call them the repentance. Please do so, but weep when they do not come. Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not? 

I am among the "chosen frozen" now brother, but let this calumny be given us because of our temperance, and not the coldness of heart for those who perish.


----------



## panta dokimazete

And Geoff, I know you have an empathy for those caught up in the error. We don't want to minimize that genuine concern, in fact we all share it. 

However, we are unyielding in our position concerning false teachers, just as Paul was.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Post deleted for being emotional drivel. lol


----------



## panta dokimazete

Reformed Baptist said:


> I am glad that when I was the enemy of God, He did not set His heart on my destruction. Nor can we know if this woman for certain is marked out for destruction. So, while you in your prayers are imprecating, I in mine will be supplicating.



 - I am nor sure it is an either/or 

..maybe a both/and?


----------



## Reformed Baptist

joshua said:


> Geoff, respectfully, you're missing the point. We want nothing more than for these folks to be granted repentance. However, if God doesn't want that, then we'd ask that he remove them, in His mercy, so that the destruction they're sowing will not be reaped by the blind and ignorant folk who have sat under their "teaching."



Maybe I am missing the point. I don't see how making fun of them leads to anything good. But your point here is well taken, I understand it, and agree with it. I guess what I was driving at was something like this Climbing Joyner's Gnostic Mountain

I am not endorsing that ministry, but its things like that that God used to help someone like me who was in that movement.


----------



## panta dokimazete

Reformed Baptist said:


> This will be my last post on this thread. The mockery here I find disgusting.



Brother, I hate that you are wounded by this - and I am sorry if I perpetuated it in any way.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

joshua said:


> The accusations you've made about me are slander. Nowhere have I said that one should "delight" in the death of the wicked. Nor was my response "calloused," "fleshly persecution," or the "anger of man." Each of you aforementioned assertions are a complete misunderstanding of my zeal for these false teachers to be silenced. I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul when he pronounces "Anathema" on false teachers. Your accusations against me are unfounded and without merit. You should really reconsider. I have mocked no one. I have simply made observations of the tomfoolery and blasphemy of these wolves in sheep's clothing.






> My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck.



This rhetoric will only embolden those caught in the movement. I find your wording of calling those "seized by this wickedness" "ignorant" both offense and irresponsible in the use of language. There is hardly a manner you can use that term where the negative connotation of it will not be percieved. 



> This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence.



I think it requires love. But righteous anger is understandable. Your words do not, however, give me that impression. Wretched be their names? Again, I am thinking of this from the point of view of one who was in that movement. If heard this kind of language from a christian I would have labeled them a pharisee and walked on. 



> May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.



Again, more of the same. I don't see an ounce of compassion in this. Again, blind masses? Most of the folks in that movement are Christians. May they receive what all men born of Adam deserve? Dear Lord man, where is the compassion? 

Your response does not give the impression of any gentleness at all my brother. Therefore, I maintain that it is callous. Nor did I say you were fleshly persecuting them, whatever that means, but that's how it would be percieved by those in the movement. 

And that I don't see in your reply either the nature of Christ or of an apostle, doesn't mean I am slandering you. And in this you say, "I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul.." is utterly amazing to me that you feel you can speak upon the same level and in the same spirit as an Apostle? Even the Apostle Paul? What?!? 

Since the Aposlte Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit of the Living God, such that what is penned by his hand is the Word of God, and not men, no sir, I will not say such things concerning an apostle of Christ or a prophet for that matter. But you are neither an apostle nor a prophet. 

Where is the false Gospel they preach? Are they preaching a Gospel of works? Are they denying the Son? How are they perverting justification by faith alone? I never heard a Gospel of works there. Perhaps I missed it. I never heard a denial of Jesus as the Son of God, Messiah, or God come in the flesh. I have never heard a denial of the Holy Trinity, or a denial of Scriptures being the Word of God. 

But I did hear false teaching. And their focus is wrong. And there is a false spirit there. There is a spirit at work in them, but it is not the Spirit of God. 

I am not convinced brother that I have slandered you. I have disagreed with your rhetoric. I am usually in the habit of saying that such a thing is how it seems to me. I did not do that in my reply to you, and for that I am sorry. My reply then came accross as an absolute statement, and it was not meant that way. 

You can dismiss my exhortation to you to exhibit more gentleness with those you find in the movement. You may think your blast of the leaders is righteous indignation, but it will not be percieved by the "sheep" as such. Did you not read my above reply...how they live in fear of even speaking against these leaders? How will you lead them out...by your above rhetoric? 

I think there is a place for strong words, but they must be seasoned with mercy and gentleness and understanding. This is what I am trying to communicate in this thread.


----------



## panta dokimazete

here is my humble plea, from one who knows - let's not get caught up defending our respective views that we lose sight of our fellowship. Please.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

panta dokimazete said:


> here is my humble plea, from one who knows - let's not get caught up defending our respective views that we lose sight of our fellowship. Please.



I agree panta, but Joshua has raised the stakes here to accuse me of slander. And my next reply will be to clear my name.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

> This kind of callous response helped, I believe, keep me in the movement longer than needed. Your words are mere fleshly persecution of the real work of God in their eyes. Remember my brother, the anger of man (even if he think it be right) does not bring about the righteousness of God.
> 
> Their false doctrine ought not to be treated lightly, I agree. But all you have done in this reply of yours, is show how you would just be angry with them. It will not work. It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them. It was not his way with me. Yes brother, call them the repentance. Please do so, but weep when they do not come. Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not?
> 
> I am among the "chosen frozen" now brother, but let this calumny be given us because of our temperance, and not the coldness of heart for those who perish.



I characterized your reply as callous. Not YOU. So this is hardly slander. 

I clamined your WORDS are flesh persecution IN THEIR EYES, trying to give you how your WORDS would be percieved. Again, no slander. no defamation. I have not attacked your character but questioned and made a judgment on how I believe your words would be percieved. 

To give an exhortation that the anger of man does not bring the righteousness of God does not slander you. Your reply to me seemed angry. But I did not accuse you as having unroghteous anger. I can see how this could be implied based on the context of our discussion, but it is itself an exhortation, and a correct one, and not an accusation. 

Nor did I accuse you of delighting in the death of the wicked. I wrote, "Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not? " It was a question for the purpose of reflection. If it had been written as, "Your soul is delighting in the death of the wicked, when God's doesn't" Then that woudl be an accusation. But it was a question, and not an accusation, although I can see how it could be read that way. 

Now, if we are clear that I have not actually accused you of any falsehood or wrongdoing or sin, are we agreed that I have have not slandered you?


----------



## Mushroom

> It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them.


This is God's way, brother:



> 2Jn 1:7-11 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (8) Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. (9) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, (11) for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.


Doesn't call for a whole lot of sympathy for the promulgators of such heresy by my reading. And those in this video are the ringleaders.


----------



## Mushroom

> I clamined your WORDS are flesh persecution IN THEIR EYES, trying to give you how your WORDS would be percieved.


Why would that matter one iota?


----------



## Reformed Baptist

joshua said:


> If my reply is "calloused," my words "fleshly," and "the anger of man," then by extention I am those things. BTW, I'm not angry. Tone and tenor are very difficult to discern over such a medium as the internet. I can assure you, I'm not angry. But the ways in which you characterize my posts, are implications of characterizations about my person.
> 
> Just because you don't perceive something as compassion because it's not using the language of "love," doesn't mean there is no compassion. I have nothing but compassion for lost sinners. I was one once. But I am also zealous for false teachers to be silenced. Why? Because of my _compassion_ for those who are caught up in their web of deceit.
> 
> It is not insulting to call the folks caught up in this mess _ignorant_ or the like. Rather, it simply means that they don't know any better. You have accused me (and other contributors) of mockery, callousness, compassionlessness, etc. simply because you don't like the language employed.



We are going to have to diagree then. I disagree that it is not insulting to call people ignorant. Your appeal to meaning is denotative. It is the connotative meaning that is hardly unavoidable. I have accused no one of anything, nor have I slandered them, or defamed them at all. I have criticized the rhetoric and still find much of it to be empty of compassion. 

I would also exhort you my beloved brother to be careful in your zeal. I find in some cases in this thread language used in a manner that would never, in my opinion, lead a person or a leader in the movement out of that movement. And my opinion is from one who was in it. 

As you have allowed yourself the courtesy that tone and tenor is difficult to convey over this medium, then please extend to me that same courtesy. My reply to you which caused your response both here and elsewhere to accuse me of slander is not true because my own meaning was not slander; as you readily admit was taken by implication and not by straightforward language.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Brad said:


> I clamined your WORDS are flesh persecution IN THEIR EYES, trying to give you how your WORDS would be percieved.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would that matter one iota?
Click to expand...


Because it is a description, based on my opinion, of how his words would be perceived by others. It is not an accusation. End of story.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Brad said:


> It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them.
> 
> 
> 
> This is God's way, brother:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Jn 1:7-11 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (8) Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. (9) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, (11) for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't call for a whole lot of sympathy for the promulgators of such heresy by my reading. And those in this video are the ringleaders.
Click to expand...


Perhaps I need to listen to the video again. I don't recall them teaching that Jesus is not come in the flesh. Nor do I agree that you can use this Scripture as a proof text to withhold sympathy from people. Nor do I see it, by the Scripture, that God's way is this way. He causes His rain to fall on the just and unjust alike. He is kind and compassionate to all, both the righteous and the wicked. It is by His example that I am exhorted to love my enemies and so be called the son of the Father. 

I brought a message of compassion to this thread because I percieved in its rhetoric that absence of it. I believe if we want to reach people caught in heresy, false teaching, or a cult then we must preach the whole counsel of God. We must strive at becoming confomred to the image of Christ who is full of grace and truth, mercy and judgment.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

One last thought to everyone. It is obvious to me that some of my replies are emotional reactions because I was once in this movement. I apologize for that. I do not apologize for my plea for more compassion in rhetoric and thinking, but I do apologize that my posts were reactionary rather than instructive and constructive to my point. 

Blessings to all. 

RB


----------



## DMcFadden

Thank you for the last post. The temperature was heating up so fast, I was just about ready to close the thread. 

MODERATOR'S NOTE TO ALL! PLEASE PLAY NICE IN THE SANDBOX.


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## Reformed Baptist

> You're right. Slander is wrong. Libel would have been a more accurate term. Nonetheless, I'll retract that.



Thank you my brother. May the Lord Jesus give you His grace and peace in abundance.


----------



## BlackCalvinist

While I have compassion for all the sheeple caught up in the movement, I do sometimes pray for a tornado to hit the headquarters of false teachers and for their true character to be made manifest to everyone in a manner beyond dispute. Of course, 2 Tim. 4:3 and experience tells me that some people will STILL follow them regardless, but I have no lost love for false teachers.

you may not like the tone, but take this into consideration:

At the end of Isaiah 66, you and every other believer in existence will stand and look over the bodies of those who rebelled against God - false teachers, liars, thieves, crooks, etc.... and we will PRAISE GOD because they are damned and receiving justice from Him for eternity. They will be an ABOMINATION to all believers in similar fashion as they are to God. 

One day, God's patience with them will cease and the fire will come. Honestly, I pray that day is soon.

In fact, I sometimes pray persecution would come to America for the church. Watch the false teachers run like roaches with the light turned on.....


----------



## Reformed Baptist

This thread has really caused me to be somewhat disillusioned about the Reformed movement. 

Well, maybe not so much so. What a warm-hearted Christian John Calvin was...

And shall see the dead bodies of men. He does not mean that this slaughter shall take place in the assembly of believers; for this would greatly diminish the happiness of the Church, in which God displays all testimonies of joy and gladness. But as he formerly spoke of the perpetual glory by which he shall dignify his people, so he now threatens the punishment which he shall inflict on the reprobate, that the godly may be more careful to keep themselves in the fear of God.

And their fire shall not be extinguished. When he says that they shall be tormented by "fire," this mode of expression, as I have formerly remarked, 16 is metaphorical. And this is clearly evident from the succeeding clause; for worms will not be formed out of the earth to gnaw the hearts of unbelievers. The plain meaning, therefore, is, that the wicked shall have a bad conscience as an executioner, to torment them without end, and that torment awaits them greater than all other torments; and finally, that they shall tremble and be agitated in a dreadful and shocking manner, as if a worm were gnawing the heart of a man, or a fire were consuming it, and yet thus consumed, he did not die.

And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. Because the wicked are now held in the highest honor, and from their lofty position look down with contempt on good men, the Prophet threatens a shocking change; for, along with unutterable torments, they shall also endure the deepest disgrace; as it is just and right that they who despised and reproached the glory of God shall be loaded with every reproach, and shall be the objects of abhorrence to angels and to the whole world.


----------



## BobVigneault

Geoff,

No one is going to fault you for having a gentle spirit and striving to act in a manner worthy of the Gospel. But there is a place for righteous indignation. There is Biblical precedent for imprecatory praying and it's place in our own praying. They shouldn't be the norm and gentleness should be our defining characteristic but there is a time for anger.

This is not inconsistent with the reformers, quite the opposite. It is apparently going against a misconception you have and your passion to make tolerance a virtue.

What is your opinion of these scriptures?

Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 


Psalm 109:1 Be not silent, O God of my praise!
2 For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me,
speaking against me with lying tongues.
3 They encircle me with words of hate,
and attack me without cause.
4 In return for my love they accuse me,
but I give myself to prayer.
5 So they reward me evil for good,
and hatred for my love.

6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few;
may another take his office!
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg,
seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him,
nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off;
may his name be blotted out in the second generation!


14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!

16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
but pursued the poor and needy
and the brokenhearted, to put them to death.
17 He loved to curse; let curses come upon him!
He did not delight in blessing; may it be far from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat;
may it soak into his body like water,
like oil into his bones!
19 May it be like a garment that he wraps around him,
like a belt that he puts on every day!
20 May this be the reward of my accusers from the Lord,
of those who speak evil against my life!


Psalm 139:19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20 They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain!
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22 I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

> Geoff,
> 
> No one is going to fault you for having a gentle spirit and striving to act in a manner worthy of the Gospel. But there is a place for righteous indignation. There is Biblical precedent for imprecatory praying and it's place in our own praying. They shouldn't be the norm and gentleness should be our defining characteristic but there is a time for anger.
> 
> This is not inconsistent with the reformers, quite the opposite. It is apparently going against a misconception you have and your passion to make tolerance a virtue.



Hey Bob, 

Thanks for your reply. Suffice it for now to say that I do believe there is a righteous anger, indignation, and loathing that we see not only in the Scripture you quoted, but in the Psalms and elsewhere, but I do not possess it as I think I ought. Nor do I believe I have a right heart for imprecatory praying, or the wisdom to know how to do so. Please accept this from one who fears God and right now seeks to join Him in praying for the salvation of all men. I want to plead with the unregenerate, not as one who in angry with them, but like Spurgeon once said with, "Genuine love to God and fervent love to man make up the great qualification for a pleader." 

But concerning tolerance I believe it is a virtue if it is the proper tolerance. If tolerance is not a virture, then is intolerance the virtue? Modern society, as I am sure you aware, has in the main redefined tolerance.


----------



## BobVigneault

I suppose I would call tolerance a tool and it must be used with discernment. Tolerance today is taught as permissiveness and an acceptance of all opinions as equal. Tolerance is an attitude that is free of bias. I am not free of bias. Because I hold the Scriptures as the highest authority I am heavily biased to let Scripture define words and establish virtue. Because I believe that Jesus is Lord I am exclusive toward Christianity.


Interesting, because I recognize the image of God in every human (according to Gen. 9:6) I treat each person with respect as if they held a portion of divine dignity which they do. I receive much criticism from others who tell me, "You like everybody!" as if I am naive and simple to do so. I consider myself a peacemaker and I would rather not confront.

There are situations, however, where we are called to discernment and apply the principles of Scripture. There are times when we must proclaim the truth of scripture even if it offends. It you never offend anyone, then you are not engaging the culture properly and you are not proclaiming the Gospel as the apostles did it.

Thank you for your reply Geoff and thank you for your gentle humility.


----------



## caddy

*Imprecatory Prayer*

Imprecatory Prayer

To refamiliarize myself with it...


----------



## Reformed Baptist

BobVigneault said:


> I suppose I would call tolerance a tool and it must be used with discernment. Tolerance today is taught as permissiveness and an acceptance of all opinions as equal. Tolerance is an attitude that is free of bias. I am not free of bias. Because I hold the Scriptures as the highest authority I am heavily biased to let Scripture define words and establish virtue. Because I believe that Jesus is Lord I am exclusive toward Christianity.
> 
> 
> Interesting, because I recognize the image of God in every human (according to Gen. 9:6) I treat each person with respect as if they held a portion of divine dignity which they do. I receive much criticism from others who tell me, "You like everybody!" as if I am naive and simple to do so. I consider myself a peacemaker and I would rather not confront.
> 
> There are situations, however, where we are called to discernment and apply the principles of Scripture. There are times when we must proclaim the truth of scripture even if it offends. It you never offend anyone, then you are not engaging the culture properly and you are not proclaiming the Gospel as the apostles did it.
> 
> Thank you for your reply Geoff and thank you for your gentle humility.



I think you have properly defined what tolerance has been, and should be, and what our society is trying to make it be. Josh McDowell wrote a book on the subject called "The New Tolerance" which if someone has interest, is a very good book on the subject and was very useful to me while completing my undergraduate degree at a secular university. 

And I agree, if we are preaching Christ and Him crucified, if we are preaching the whole counsel of God, people will be offended and we must not let our human compassion for the souls of men tear us away from our fidelity to Christ and His truth.


----------



## panta dokimazete

joshua said:


> Dog Machete Pantibulatorer



bwaaahha!


----------



## PaulG

This is just BAD (and very sad).


----------



## Stephen

joshua said:


> Ditto to Bob and Dog Machete Pantibulatorer.
> 
> My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck. This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence. May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.



 These false prophets violate the third commandment.


----------



## Stephen

Reformed Baptist said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> The accusations you've made about me are slander. Nowhere have I said that one should "delight" in the death of the wicked. Nor was my response "calloused," "fleshly persecution," or the "anger of man." Each of you aforementioned assertions are a complete misunderstanding of my zeal for these false teachers to be silenced. I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul when he pronounces "Anathema" on false teachers. Your accusations against me are unfounded and without merit. You should really reconsider. I have mocked no one. I have simply made observations of the tomfoolery and blasphemy of these wolves in sheep's clothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This rhetoric will only embolden those caught in the movement. I find your wording of calling those "seized by this wickedness" "ignorant" both offense and irresponsible in the use of language. There is hardly a manner you can use that term where the negative connotation of it will not be percieved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it requires love. But righteous anger is understandable. Your words do not, however, give me that impression. Wretched be their names? Again, I am thinking of this from the point of view of one who was in that movement. If heard this kind of language from a christian I would have labeled them a pharisee and walked on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, more of the same. I don't see an ounce of compassion in this. Again, blind masses? Most of the folks in that movement are Christians. May they receive what all men born of Adam deserve? Dear Lord man, where is the compassion?
> 
> Your response does not give the impression of any gentleness at all my brother. Therefore, I maintain that it is callous. Nor did I say you were fleshly persecuting them, whatever that means, but that's how it would be percieved by those in the movement.
> 
> And that I don't see in your reply either the nature of Christ or of an apostle, doesn't mean I am slandering you. And in this you say, "I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul.." is utterly amazing to me that you feel you can speak upon the same level and in the same spirit as an Apostle? Even the Apostle Paul? What?!?
> 
> Since the Aposlte Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit of the Living God, such that what is penned by his hand is the Word of God, and not men, no sir, I will not say such things concerning an apostle of Christ or a prophet for that matter. But you are neither an apostle nor a prophet.
> 
> Where is the false Gospel they preach? Are they preaching a Gospel of works? Are they denying the Son? How are they perverting justification by faith alone? I never heard a Gospel of works there. Perhaps I missed it. I never heard a denial of Jesus as the Son of God, Messiah, or God come in the flesh. I have never heard a denial of the Holy Trinity, or a denial of Scriptures being the Word of God.
> 
> But I did hear false teaching. And their focus is wrong. And there is a false spirit there. There is a spirit at work in them, but it is not the Spirit of God.
> 
> I am not convinced brother that I have slandered you. I have disagreed with your rhetoric. I am usually in the habit of saying that such a thing is how it seems to me. I did not do that in my reply to you, and for that I am sorry. My reply then came accross as an absolute statement, and it was not meant that way.
> 
> You can dismiss my exhortation to you to exhibit more gentleness with those you find in the movement. You may think your blast of the leaders is righteous indignation, but it will not be percieved by the "sheep" as such. Did you not read my above reply...how they live in fear of even speaking against these leaders? How will you lead them out...by your above rhetoric?
> 
> I think there is a place for strong words, but they must be seasoned with mercy and gentleness and understanding. This is what I am trying to communicate in this thread.
Click to expand...


You must have missed the strong condemnation of Jesus toward the Pharisee's and Scribes in the gospels. Jesus was not afraid to call them what they were, white washed seplecurs. Blasphemy is a violation of the the third commandment and should be condemned.


----------



## turmeric

> they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer!


 
A certain Simon Magus comes to mind. Also a certain imprecatory remark by an original gangsta, I mean an Apostle; "Your money perish with you!"


----------



## Blue Tick

> Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the \"ordination\".
> 
> I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.




[video=youtube;XjWO4LVU5E4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjWO4LVU5E4&feature=related[/video]


----------



## pilgrim3970

puritan lad said:


> Been there, done that (well, not exactly that). Thank God for Reformation...



been there, done that, except it was more of a nodding motion (vs the side to side thing), I was in my 20s, had hair to my waist, and played in a heavy metal band. 

and yes, Thank God for the Reformation


----------



## skellam

I didn't watch the whole video as I find it disturbing. Their practices as exhibited in the portion of the video I watched do not appear to conform to biblical worship or biblical church order. Though they call upon the name of Jesus, it does not appear to be the same Jesus or the same gospel that we find in Scripture.

I think prayer for the people, who are deluded by these false teachers, is needed. Also, we should be in prayer that the name of Jesus would be proclaimed boldly and rightly and that people who blaspheme his name would be silenced.

We should always be cautious in our approach to those whose doctrine differs from our own in secondary ways not essential to the gospel. But we should be righteously indignant to those who are plainly preaching a false gospel, which is the category that many in the "health and wealth" movement fall in to.

Jesus never avoided rebuking false teachers. Others have mentioned in this thread, Jesus' anger in the temple when the place of worship was misused. Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer for desiring to pay the disciples for the gift of the Holy Spirit. 



> 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
> 
> 20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
> 
> 24Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."



In this case, it appears to have led to repentance. The Bible certainly contains examples of false teachers and professors of false religions being mocked. Elijah had strong words for the prophets of Baal.



> O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped about the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is musing, or he is gone aside, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lances, till the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And it was so, when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening oblation; but there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.


----------



## DMcFadden

> The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.



Actually, the lady in the video is an alum of a Baptist seminary (Canada???). She and her husband are quite popular in this circuit. 

This is what her web site says http://www.revivalnow.com/about.html:



> For almost three decades, Wesley and Stacey have given themselves in service to the Body of Christ in a variety of capacities, including church planting, pastoring for over 20 years, prophetic ministry and preaching in many different denominations around the world. They have started an organization called Be A Hero, whose purpose is to promote the cause of children at risk and alleviate the suffering of the poor ( Be A Hero ). They founded and convene the Candian Prophetic Council, are on the Board of "The Call Nashville" and partner together with many ministries to see the kingdom of God advanced on the earth.
> 
> Revival Now Ministries’ inspiration and values are built upon the Christian belief of the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Based on the testament of the Bible we believe that all human life has value, and that the two highest moral imperatives are 1) to love God; and 2) to love your neighbour as yourself, as taught by Jesus in His famous illustration of the "good Samaritan". (Luke 10:25-37).



Their bio includes the following:



> Wesley and Stacey Campbell are founders of RevivalNOW! Ministries and ‘Praying The Bible International,’ and a mercy organization for children at risk called ’Be A Hero’ (Be A Hero). They are producers of the "Praying the Bible" CDs and co-authors of several Praying the Bible books.
> 
> As well as being involved in the current prayer movement, Stacey and Wesley work in coalition with 'Hope for the Nations' and other mercy organizations focused on children at risk. Wesley is co-author of the book Be A Hero – The Battle for Mercy and Social Justice. Stacey was ordained by Dr. Bill Hammond, and is the founder and facilitator of the Canadian Prophetic Council.
> 
> Wesley and Stacey are faculty members of Wagner Leadership Institute and are very gifted teachers. Their passion to change the plight of widows and orphans world-wide will touch and inspire you, and their teachings on Praying the Bible will lead you into a greater fulfillment of the first commandment – to love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. Their history as missionaries, church planters, pastors and ministry in the wider Body of Christ gives their teaching a depth and authority that can only come from personal experience.
> 
> The Campbells live with their five children in Kelowna, B.C., Canada, and are an integral part of the Apostolic Team of Kelowna Christian Center, teaching at various schools and conferences. As conference speakers, they have ministered in over 45 nations, laboring to see revival and social justice transform the world.



In her "Ecstatic Prophecy - Teaching CD" Stacey "takes you on a journey of how ecstatic prophecy has been poured out on us."



> For years Stacey Campbell has prophesied worldwide to many people, leaders, and churches. In this single CD Audio teaching, Stacey speaks about what ecstatic prophecy is, and takes you on a journey of how ecstatic prophecy has been demonstrated all throughout history.
> 
> She shares some intensely personal stories of walking out the different ways ecstatic prophecy has been both accepted and rejected by the Christian community, and how it all has changed her. Stacey’s greatest desire is that we would all prophesy, no matter how God has created for us to uniquely demonstrate that.



Most disturbing to me, however, is the way in which her work also targets young children. Mrs. Campbell is a speaker, author, producer of CDs to teach children how to "grow up prophetic" in her "Growing Up Prophetic." For only $18.95 (USD) you can have a 3 CD set. Stacey "delights children as she recalls her experiences."




> Stacey Campbell has worked with children for many years teaching them to hear God's voice and move in the prophetic. She delighted the children with many funny stories of her own experiences and those of her children including the feature story "There's A Mouse in My Pants".
> 
> Older children and teens will also enjoy what Stacey has to say.
> 
> These sessions were part of the "Kid in Ministry" prophetic conference.



OK, so we know that she does this for a living (ministry), preaches around the world, has a full-feature internet site with lots of resources, and has authored books and teaching programs. Specifically, she teaches young children how to "grow up prophetic," i.e., listen to the promptings of the Spirit within you and share those inspired prophecies with the body of Christ.

She may be a number of things. However, with all due respect to our brethren sensitive about calling error error, my characterization of "the lady in the video" would not be that she "is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord," at least not in the sense of mititgating the responsibility for her actions. By her own admission, she is an international "leader" in this movement. And, while she and her husband do a number of evidently very good and worthy things (e.g., Be a Hero project for children at risk), her primary ministry is promulgating her approach to prophecy. Yes Wayne Grudem is also into the continuation of prophecy, but not like THIS! As one who claims to have come out of a seminary, who preaches around the world, and who publishes materials to teach others (including CHILDREN!!!) to follow her example, I think that this kicks her up on the responsibility scale just a little bit, don't you think? 

Oh, and by the way, my background is not in the Reformed camp, I continue to be in good standing as an ordained Baptist minister (formerly part of the liberal ABCUSA), graduated from a fairly liberal "evangelical seminary" (Fuller), and have always been part of the tolerant broadly evangelical wing of the church. Many of my friends are in the charismatic movement, and I love Wayne Grudem's SysTheo. So the accusation alleging that criticism is only coming from "mean spirited" truly Reformed culture probably would not apply to me.

And, all I can say is YIKES!


----------



## BobVigneault

Mark 9:42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.


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## Stephen

Blue Tick said:


> Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the \"ordination\".
> 
> I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;XjWO4LVU5E4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjWO4LVU5E4&feature=related[/video]
Click to expand...


 This is something right out of the twlight zone. I agree with you brother, we should pray for her deliverance. Read the Deut. 13:1-5 & 18:18 and see what Moses had to say about these profits. When I hear a woman referred to as a prophetess I think of Waunita Bynum and her husband that claimed to be an apostle. They were not married a year and already were beating on each other. These people should have been stoned or cained.


----------



## Stephen

joshua said:


> In the spirit of unity, I give you:
> 
> YouTube - kumbaya




 Yes, the tolerance of modern evangelicalism toward heresy. All on the count of three. Kumbaya, ...............


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## BobVigneault

When I watched that Prophetic TV program I kept hearing the words, "Mecka-lecka-high-mecka-hiney-ho". I'm getting goose bumps.


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## rescuedbyLove

BlackCalvinist said:


> In fact, I sometimes pray persecution would come to America for the church. Watch the false teachers run like roaches with the light turned on.....


----------



## wmc1982

Its sad to see churches like this with so many in the congregation, while often times the numbers are few in churches where the truth is being preached. I used to go to a charismatic church (nothing at all like these video's though) and I understand the attraction of emotional experiences, but God graciously has recently brought me to a much better understanding of doctrine and truth. 

My natural self wouldn't have initially left a 600 member church with emotionally aesthetic preaching and good music for a small, developing ARP church with much better teaching (don't get me wrong, the preaching is excellent here!). In His providence now I get much more lasting spiritual joy and truth in His word to carry me through my trials and tribulations and realize my call to humility, servant hood, and suffering with Christ. 

We really do need to pray for people in these false doctrines. They are deceived and I believe God's providence is their only hope of finding truth.


----------



## BaptisticFire2007

I hate to say, but I grew up in that tradition (or at most its grandmother, in terms of relation). This kind of thing is nothing new sadly. At best, the experience of Daniel by the River Chebar is used to substantiate it but ultimately it is nothing more than Satanic deception...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

BobVigneault said:


> When I watched that Prophetic TV program I kept hearing the words, "Mecka-lecka-high-mecka-hiney-ho". I'm getting goose bumps.


----------



## BaptisticFire2007

BlackCalvinist said:


> With the 'awakening' that seems to be happening in many communities now - where folks are abandoning 'churchianity' and the mechanations of televangelists and searching for biblical truth, we might be seeing the beginnings of it dying out.



I can definitely testify to what you're saying, brother, since I was one of 'em! If you had told me this time last summer, I'd be a Reformed Baptist, I'd slapped some sense into you and pray you'd quit drinking! As I began to read the Bible and see where my church was going of course, I soon realised that I was really in need of good instruction.

I am sure a lot of folks can relate to that.


----------



## shackleton

I came out of something like this too but thank God for reformed theology. 

I often wonder where these people get these notions in their head that they call God. Is is some sort of demonic entity that is leading them astray and in effect leading countless millions others astray? Or is it simply voices contrived from their own minds, sort of like schizophrenia? 

I have always hoped that these people are themselves deceived and are not just taking advantage of people to make a quick buck. It is like the Christian version of going to a fortune teller.


----------



## BaptisticFire2007

shackleton said:


> I have always hoped that these people are themselves deceived and are not just taking advantage of people to make a quick buck. It is like the Christian version of going to a fortune teller.



It is essentially is the Christian version of the fortune teller. Notice how it is always generic things that they call out - things that you don't need a doctor to know that someone suffers from...


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## Blue Tick

Job 10:22

the land of gloom like thick darkness,
like deep shadow without any order,
where light is as thick darkness.


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## DMcFadden

> Stacey’s greatest desire is that we would all prophesy



Once you watch the video and realize how ecstatic her idea of prophecy is, you get some notion of why she teaches this to little children. She wants us "all" to "prophesy."


----------



## Stephen

BaptisticFire2007 said:


> I hate to say, but I grew up in that tradition (or at most its grandmother, in terms of relation). This kind of thing is nothing new sadly. At best, the experience of Daniel by the River Chebar is used to substantiate it but ultimately it is nothing more than Satanic deception...



I was also associated with some of these groups at one time and never saw such nonsense and deception in my life. I am thankful that the Lord brought you out of such deception, brother. Welcome to the PB.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Expecting this movment to be charismatic, and therefore subscribe to a second work of the Holy Spirit beyond regeneration, why not critique the statement of faith of what is probably the "leading" church in the movement, MorningStar. You can read their statement of faith here MorningStar Ministries : Statement of Faith

I would submit the following errors, doctrinally, with this movement aside from the obvious on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the present ministry of the Holy Spirit. 

1. "When Jesus is lifted up, He will draw all people to Himself. We consider it the primary purpose of the church to esteem and exalt Jesus in every way. It is the focus and devotion of MorningStar Ministries to know and preach Him, and not ourselves." This is an obvious misinterpreation of John 12:32 which speaks of His atoning sacrifice for every tongue, tribe, and nation. 

2. Their statement, "On man" is confusing at best. It seems to allude to the doctrine of original sin, but it is not clear at all. The statements under "On the Atonement" lay further confusion to their beliefs in that they say, "Because all have sinned and are therefore under the sentence of death..." So which is it? When they wrote concerning man, they say, "The first man, Adam, transgressed the command of God, and as God had warned, the process of death entered him and all of his descendants because of that transgression. Therefore, all have sinned and are worthy of the sentence of death." So which is it? 

3. "Those who trust in Jesus Christ have access to the Throne of Grace by His sacrifice and by His sacrifice alone." You will notice this repeated several times concerning "access to the Throne of Grace" As one who was involved in this church for years, it is most likely their statement affirming the "manifestations" you see and hear in their videos. They are seeking a "secret place" through the blood of Jesus Christ to access this "Throne of Grace" wherein they completely wrest Hebrews 4:16 from its context and plain meaning, and apply a mystical experience to it. 

4. Their statement on the new birth, or regeneration, is odd at best. They state, "Believing in our hearts that Jesus is the Son of God and in His propitiation made for our salvation results in a regeneration and renewal that constitutes our new birth into new creations." Certainly belief that Jesus is the Son of God is needed. But what they are describing should be the faith given as a gift by the work of regeneration in heart of man unto believing that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

5. Their statements under "On the purpose of faith" is, if I may be bold (but open to be corrected) is rank heresy. "True faith is of the heart and not just the mind (Romans 10:10). God's purpose in requiring faith for salvation is to raise our focus and concentration above the temporal to the One who is eternal." The first part of the statement gives justification to a believing without the mind. (I was there..lol) The second past of this statement is a denial of justification. God's purpose for faith in Jesus Christ is NOT to "raise our focus and concentration" but to justify the ungodly through Jesus Christ by faith. 

Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 

Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." 

Much more can be said to prove the doctrine of justification by faith alone, but I wanted the board to see what they are doing. After their statement regarding the purpose of faith which I quoted here, they state under the same heading, "Therefore, the gospel that is able to save souls must be preached in the power of the Spirit of God." Again, this is to lay justification for what they are doing "in the Spirit of God." 

Unless the Lord does it, we will hardly get an audience with these folks to be heard, let alone the leadership. I am personally amazed at how silent solid, bible-believing churches have been in regards to this movement. And when its critiqued, its usually a mere reaction to the strange behavior that is seen among them. 

But the Lord has not left them without some good. They claim that, "We do not accept any doctrine which contradicts Scripture." and, "We do not accept any revelation, vision, dream, prophecy or discernment as truth which contradicts Scripture, or cannot be verified by it. We do not believe that any other writings have the same authority as the canon of Scripture." 

Have they not, to whatever degree, just affirmed Sola Scriptura, albeit by practice are denying it? Perhaps it is time by God's grace and will someone examine the movement and particularly this church which seems to be at the forefront, and apply their own confession of their faith and test their doctrine and practice by the Scriptures. 

RB


----------



## wmc1982

RB,

I found out that many members at the church I left are going weekly to that Morning Star church, attempting to "bring back the spirit" to their church. They feel as though a worship service failed if everyone didn't receive some great feeling or excitement during the service. People seem to be looked down upon if they don't jump up and down, start yelling, or be in tears.

All seems to be selfish and emotional based. Some people just trade one high for another. A worship service should be about focusing on and worshipping God, not being about what we can get for ourselves. When you seek God first in all that you do, your life will be filled with blessing even when you don't realize it. I feel most blessed in times of suffering and tribulation, as I get to suffer along side of Christ.

2 Cor 4:8-11


----------



## Reformed Baptist

wmc1982 said:


> RB,
> 
> I found out that many members at the church I left are going weekly to that Morning Star church, attempting to "bring back the spirit" to their church. They feel as though a worship service failed if everyone didn't receive some great feeling or excitement during the service. People seem to be looked down upon if they don't jump up and down, start yelling, or be in tears.
> 
> All seems to be selfish and emotional based. Some people just trade one high for another. A worship service should be about focusing on and worshipping God, not being about what we can get for ourselves. When you seek God first in all that you do, your life will be filled with blessing even when you don't realize it. I feel most blessed in times of suffering and tribulation, as I get to suffer along side of Christ.



Very typical of the movement. They are evangelizing this "move of God" as they call it instead of Christ. But I am pretty sure their statement of faith plants MorningStar in the camp of heretics. 

Does anyone on the board think I have misunderstood their statement on the purpose of faith?


----------



## Reformed Baptist

BTW, I asked the board before where their denial was of essential of doctrine. Well, I think I found it myself. The Lord will save His elect who may have been caught up in the movement. That the leadership of this movment are heretics I am now convinced, but I am open to being wrong about that. 

Being the case, that they pervert the Gospel of Christ and redefine the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone--let them be anathama. I say this with great sorrow in my heart.


----------



## 3John2

pilgrim3970 said:


> wow...that just strikes me as demonic



My same sentiments!!! I'm so ashamed to say I came OUT of that garbage. Praise God for leading to the Reformed path which is rooted in God's Word.


----------



## kvanlaan

Geoff, I've just read through the posts and want to counsel you to please not misconstrue Josh's zeal on this issue. I myself have done so in another recent thread on this very topic and we got very crossways over, essentially, our agreement on the subject.

We MUST call sin sin. We can look at the history of Christianity and see, in almost every instance, that when the true church did not zealously seek to dig out heterodox behavior, these ideas took root and often ended up destroying faithful churches. If we look at the CRC in the 1920's, we see a church at the top of its game, but beset by modern social pressures. Now look at it only 80 years later. Female pastors. Homosexuals being elected to church office (the office of elder, no less!) If you were to read through a discussion on this issue on the PB, you would find _strong_ language. Language that would indeed offend many (if not all) involved in these wandering churches. Language that may even cause them to turn to more 'tolerant' denominations, or walk away from church completely.

But even in the face of this unpalatable offensiveness, we are called to be true to Scripture. We do not cut Romans 1 out of the bible because it will offend, we preach it as a part of the gospel. It will offend. The world will hate it. There is no doubt that it will prick the consciences of those who practise these sins and cause them great anger towards the 'intolerant' and 'hypocritical' Christians that follow such writings.

But I don't see where anyone is making fun of these "prophets". Calling a spade a spade? Maybe. But there is no sarcasm for the sake of a laugh. I do see (and feel) grief for these people. And pray that they would see the light and be saved from their depravity. But at the end of the day, we are called to be set apart from this and inform the brethren of the danger that stalks us as believers in this fallen world. And, as I am prone to do, my grief for them is overwhelmed by the anger I feel as I hear them blaspheme the name and office of my Savior. This must be condemned in the strongest terms. It may sound like a two-minute hate session, but I promise you that what you are reading is no less (and no more) than a Scripturally-sound discussion of the barbarians beating at the gates.

I hope that going forward, you would be encouraged, not offended, by the actions and words of your brothers in Christ here on the PB, even in this very thread. I am thankful for these narrow-minded and over-rigid men and women every day. Blessings, brother.

(sorry if this is  )


----------



## pilgrim3970

wmc1982 said:


> RB,
> 
> I found out that many members at the church I left are going weekly to that Morning Star church, attempting to "bring back the spirit" to their church. They feel as though a worship service failed if everyone didn't receive some great feeling or excitement during the service. People seem to be looked down upon if they don't jump up and down, start yelling, or be in tears.
> 
> All seems to be selfish and emotional based. Some people just trade one high for another.




I grew up in Pentecostal/non-denom charismatic churches and this pretty well right on the money.


----------



## raekwon

I watched all four parts of this "commissioning" service. Every time one of those jokers said "says/saith the LORD", I wanted to punch and/or throw something.


----------



## Marrow Man

Somebody's been watching one too many Japanese horror movies...


----------



## D. Paul

Peter H said:


> I have Restless Leg Syndrome.
> 
> Am I an Apostle?



In my best Ernest Angley voice, "Be hhhhhhhhhhhee-uld!"


----------



## DMcFadden

D. Paul said:


> Peter H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have Restless Leg Syndrome.
> 
> Am I an Apostle?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my best Ernest Angley voice, "Be hhhhhhhhhhhee-uld!"
Click to expand...


Ernest Angley?!? It has been a loooong time since I've heard that name. "Say baaaaaby. Say baaaaby."


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