# Can a church be both reformed and charismatic?



## Somerset (May 19, 2012)

I see that some local churches describe themselves as reformed and charismatic. Is this possible and does it have anything to do with the "New Calvinism" which I have seen as a topic of lectures, but don't know anything about?


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## Supersillymanable (May 19, 2012)

That depends entirely on what you mean by Reformed. Some on here would say the likes of John Piper etc are not reformed, some would. It entirely depends upon what definition you're working with really.


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## Somerset (May 19, 2012)

My definition of reformed is Doctrine of Grace, Covenant theology and adherence to one of the historic confessions. My definition of charismatic is the belief that the gifts given to the apostles are still able to be used.


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## Supersillymanable (May 19, 2012)

As far as I know, the confessions don't outright advocate cessationism as far as I know, though I think quite a lot of them held that belief. Some Charismatics hold to Covenant theology and the doctrines of Grace and would happily affirm almost everything in confessions such as the Westminster confession of faith etc. I think most wouldn't say they were confessional though. I think New Calvinism is generally associated with it though.


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## Scott1 (May 19, 2012)

Reformed at a minimum would be:

Doctrines of grace ("Calvinism") + Covenant Theology + Confession

I'm not aware of any communion having these elements and being self-described "charismatic" or "pentecostal."
Those terms mean that the communion believes that ordinarily, special revelation comes outside of Scripture through I Corinthian 12 spiritual gifts.
The Westminster Confession teaches that, in any ordinary sense, new special revelation has ceased because it was completed in the Scripture, the foundation of our faith, once delivered.



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter I
> Of the Holy Scripture
> ...



This is the doctrine of _sola scriptura_ which is a central doctrine of the biblical truths restored to the church during the Reformation (from which comes "reformed" theology).

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 PM ----------

Understand that a communion could be "Calvinist," have an unclear covenant (v. dispensational) theology, and have no confession (only a minimalist statement of faith), in addition to being wrong on _sola scriptura_.

While there can certainly be Christians in a communion like this, it is in significant error as to both faith and practice.

And it is not even minimally "reformed,"- might be heading that direction, but not there yet.


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## Jake (May 19, 2012)

Sovereign Grace Ministries defines themselves as such, but look at what it says on their beliefs page: What We Believe - Sovereign Grace Ministries



> Surrounding this core is an emphasis on sound doctrine. We are committed to a Reformed doctrine of salvation (the doctrines historically known as TULIP), justification by faith alone, and the belief that Scripture is the sole infallible source of doctrine and authority.
> 
> *Beyond this agreement on the general tenets of Reformed theology, there are areas in which we differ from many Reformed traditions*, such as infant baptism, cessationism (the belief that some miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased), and some traditionally Reformed types of church government.



Even they admit that this still leaves them far from historic reformed theology. When you hear a church that is reformed and charismatic, this generally means that they believe in the Calvinist Doctrines of Grace, and not much else.


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## rbcbob (May 19, 2012)

Somerset said:


> I see that some local churches describe themselves as reformed and charismatic. Is this possible and does it have anything to do with the "New Calvinism" which I have seen as a topic of lectures, but don't know anything about?




I seem to remember a Peter Lewis, who I believe is there in Nottingham, trying to lead Reformed churches into a blending of Charismatic practices many years ago. Is he still around? Has that effort continued?


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## christiana (May 20, 2012)

rbcbob said:


> Somerset said:
> 
> 
> > I see that some local churches describe themselves as reformed and charismatic. Is this possible and does it have anything to do with the "New Calvinism" which I have seen as a topic of lectures, but don't know anything about?
> ...



Is he the Peter Lewis that wrote 'The Genius of Puritanism?'


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## jogri17 (May 20, 2012)

I would say, you can be _reformational_, but not Reformed.


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## Somerset (May 20, 2012)

Peter Lewis is still active. He became pastor of a small, ageing, baptist church in 1969. He now meets in a school hall but will soon be moving into a new church costing about 8 million dollars. His church attracts about 600 people, including a lot of students. I have visited it once - Peter, and some of the congregation, were holding their hands up during the singing, but there was no mention of the gifts of the spirit in a charismatic way.


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## Scott1 (May 20, 2012)

Jake said:


> Sovereign Grace Ministries defines themselves as such, but look at what it says on their beliefs page: What We Believe - Sovereign Grace Ministries
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Reformed" is more than leadership holding a general Calvinist soteriology at a given point in time.

This communion has only a minimalist list of beliefs, not an accountable confession of faith. In reality, there is no real basis for accountability for a full doctrines of grace theology, and no defined covenant theology (could be dispensationalism).

So the minimal elements of the reformed faith, reformed theology are not there.

And that does not address the error of the "pentecostal" doctrine that there is a second work of grace by filling of the Holy Spirit that must be evidenced by speaking in other tongues, which is the modern definition of "pentecostal." ("Charismatic" is must be evidenced by one of the I Corinthians 12 spiritual gifts).

All that, too, before getting to the error of extrabiblical revelation as an ordinary means of grace through (which contradicts a central tenet of reformed theology, _sola scriptura._

"Calvinist" or "Calvinist leaning" is only one part of 'reformed.'


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