# Judas not predestined?



## Weston Stoler (Nov 13, 2011)

So, I go to a confessional PCA church that seems to believe in the 5 points of Calvinism however, today one of the elders spoke on the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I had major issues with it and maybe I am just being too judgmental but this seemed to be against the doctrine of reprobation

These were his points

That god is completely and ultimately sovereign.
That Man is responsible for his choices. (still no problem yet)
Judas was prophesied to be the one who betrays Jesus
Judas's choices were not pre-set and he could have at any time repented (uhmm....)
If Judas's choices were pre-set then the sincerer offer by Jesus that he could repent would be hypocritical.
God is not a hypocrite
Judas's choices must not be pre-set then (sounds like good-ol' IFB logic here)
Man is responsible and God is sovereign and this is a mystery we shouldn't go any deeper into.

I mean, I have spoken countless time to the ruling and preaching elder and I know he is confessional and that the laypeople know good and well the doctrines of Grace. I don't really understand how he could preach this message and it be received well?

I have had Arminians tell me that the people where not predestined to kill Jesus just the actions and that someone was going to fulfill them and it just happened that they choose to do it. I don't see this line of thinking being rational especially in what should be a confessional PCA church.

Am I being too judgmental? probably...... But I see this as a major error which leads to a semi-pelagian view of salvation. I didn't even hear the view of total depravity in his preaching.

Ironically I checked out Martin Luther's "bondage of the will" before I went to the service.

Thoughts, ideas, comments, jokes


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## Stargazer65 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well, I'd be careful about being too judgmental Weston unless you get clarification. There can be differences in how we interpret reprobation, decretive and permissive will, and whether or not we even believe in the free offer of the gospel and still be confessional. That being said it is certainly true that Jesus was delivered by the determinant counsel and foreknowledge of God by Judas. But there's nothing wrong with asking questions and getting clarification from the elders on a sermon.


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## Peairtach (Nov 13, 2011)

> Judas's choices were not pre-set



It depends what he means by words like "pre-set".

Judas choices were predestined, but it is mysterious how God can predestine the free choices of saved and unsaved men. 

But God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, so He can do things that we don't understand.


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## Rufus (Nov 13, 2011)

Along with the above answers don't expect to find a church that has "perfect" theology (what is perfect theology anyways, after all we all are bound to be wrong in some things), your probably in one of the better churches you have in distance. Also, if he is clearly wrong somebody may correct him.


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## Tim (Nov 13, 2011)

Rufus said:


> Along with the above answers don't expect to find a church that has "perfect" theology (what is perfect theology anyways, after all we all are bound to be wrong in some things), your probably in one of the better churches you have in distance. Also, if he is clearly wrong somebody may correct him.



I'll disagree with your statement, Sean, _as it applies to Weston's question_. It is true that perfect theology is elusive for us sinners, but in this situation, I think that the content of said sermon is something that can be described correctly and confidently.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 13, 2011)

I would hesitate to offer any opinion on the sermon. My counsel is that you speak with the Elder and seek clarification. Just too many loaded terms being used that require you to go to the source before we start burning anyone in effigy. 

BTW, I don't know of any PCA churches that are not "confessional PCA". I'm just sayin'.

AMR


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## Rufus (Nov 13, 2011)

Tim said:


> Rufus said:
> 
> 
> > Along with the above answers don't expect to find a church that has "perfect" theology (what is perfect theology anyways, after all we all are bound to be wrong in some things), your probably in one of the better churches you have in distance. Also, if he is clearly wrong somebody may correct him.
> ...



You may be right, thanks for the reproof.


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## Scott1 (Nov 13, 2011)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> Chapter III
> Of God's Eternal Decree
> 
> ...



You ask a good question, and one that is very deep. This is why the Westminster Confession of Faith, says in summarizing the doctrine of Scripture, that the "high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,"

There is no quick, easy answer but I certainly trust and believe the teaching you heard is on the right track.

On one level, Judas had free will to do as he pleased and is accountable for that. On the other, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing that His creatures can do to limit that.

Man has free will.

God has free will.

But, God's will is more free than man's.


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## Zach (Nov 13, 2011)

I would echo the advice to seek out that TE and ask him questions about his sermon. None of us heard it and it would be uncharitable of us to jump to conclusions.


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## Tim (Nov 13, 2011)

Yes. That is always the first course of action. I hope we are all reminded of this in our own situations.

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Ensure you understood him correctly. Ask the preacher if he was happy with how he communicated his points.


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## MarieP (Nov 13, 2011)

I echo the advice of asking for more clarification! My guess is that he might have simply meant that God wasn't holding a gun to Judas' head, but rather that Judas was acting out of the wickedness of his own heart.


Scott1 said:


> Man has free will.
> 
> God has free will.
> 
> But, God's will is more free than man's.



I like that! (And not just your turn of phrase- if my will could trump God's, I'd be in so much trouble all the time!)


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## Weston Stoler (Nov 13, 2011)

He really made some examples that my arminian friends have used to try to "disprove election" and it scared me. I know the guy somewhat (I have only been their about 3 or 4 months) and he seems like a nice guy. So, I am meeting with the pastor tomorrow to talk about starting the membership process and I might ask him what he thinks the guy meant. It just scares me when people say things like he said. I did confess to the Lord my being judgment before taking the sacrament. So I do admit I still have a lot of cage stage in me, more than I realize sometimes.


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## MarieP (Nov 13, 2011)

Weston Stoler said:


> I did confess to the Lord my being judgment before taking the sacrament. So I do admit I still have a lot of cage stage in me, more than I realize sometimes.



Brother, been there, done that! I had to deal with the "cage stage" in my own life, and I am thankful for the patience God gave my brethren (especially my pastor) in helping me out of it! I will be praying for you and your new church- for wisdom and for hearts that preach and believe God's Word faithfully, not erring either to the right or to the left.


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