# Does God work any good in the ungodly?



## InSlaveryToChrist (May 26, 2010)

We as God's children know very well that all our good works are wrought by God. Is it, however, possible for God, in this same way, to work His good pleasure in the ungodly? Or is it that God can only through a new heart and a new spirit make people bear good fruit? 

These thoughts occurred to me, while I was listening to a sermon called "I Will Harden Pharaoh's Heart" by Don Fortner. I had never before seen a connection between God's hardening of a heart and Romans 1:28, where it says,

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

Then I thought, "But don't people do all those things which are "not convenient" listed in the next few verses (v. 29, 30) BY NATURE?" And thus the question, "Does God work any good in the ungodly?"

Now look at verse 32,

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Don't the ungodly BY NATURE "have pleasure in them that do them"? I realize that a false Christian can easily be distinguished from a true one just by considering his or her attitude towards others' sinning. If your fellow Christian, when seeing you sinning, rebukes you, you cannot but be thankful because you know what sacrifice/risk he or she is making!

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." [Proverb 27:5]

The ungodly Christian does not want to rebuke anyone. He/she simply wants to catch you sinning so that when you catch him/her sinning, they think they can appeal to your sinning as an excuse to their own sinning. Well, we should know a true Christian does not behave in such a manner at all, but rather humbles himself, when rebuked.

Okay, I will just let you answer the question (good reasoning, please!),

"Does God work any good in the ungodly?"


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## KMK (May 26, 2010)

Everything that is 'worked' in this world is 'worked' according to God's good pleasure, regardless of the vessel that does the 'work'.



> Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh *all* things after the counsel of his own will:



In addition, everything that God works is 'good' from a heavenly perspective.



> Ps 25:8 Good and upright is the Lord



Therefore, from a heavenly perspective all 'works' are good.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (May 26, 2010)

KMK said:


> Everything that is 'worked' in this world is 'worked' according to God's good pleasure, regardless of the vessel that does the 'work'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know very well God does everything according to His good pleasure, but I also know that He does things contrary to His will of command. God does not approve of sin, yet He wills it. So, the will that I had in aim was God's will of command. That is,

"Does God cause the ungodly to do according to His good pleasure?"

Oh but now I suddenly recalled that everything that is not of faith is sin!!! So, my question is invalid. In order for the ungodly to please God, they must have faith, which they don't. Okay, I think this thread came to nothing.


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## Semper Fidelis (May 26, 2010)

I would say that what God has given all men, including the ungodly, is very good.

We believe that man has fallen ethically but, in a broad sense, he retains the image of God. I love this quote from Kuyper:



> When the captain of a man-of-war in a naval engagement betrays his king and raises the enemy's flag, he does not first damage or sink his ship, but he keeps it as efficient for service as possible, and with all its armament intact he does the very reverse of what he ought to do. " Optimi coruptio pessima!" says the proverb of the wise— i.e., the greater the excellency of a thing, the more dangerous its defection. If the admiral of the fleet were to choose which of his ships should betray him, he would say : " Let it be the weakest, for defection of the strongest is the most dangerous." It is true in every sphere of life that the excellent qualities of a thing or being do not disappear in reversed action, but become most excellently bad.
> 
> In this way we understand man's fall. Before it he possessed the most exquisite organism which by holy impulse was directed toward the most exalted aim. though reversed by the fall, this precious human instrument remained, but, directed by unholy impulse, it aims at a deeply unholy object.
> 
> Comparing man to a steamship, his fall did not remove the engine. But as before the fall he moved in righteousness, so he moves now in unrighteousness. In fact, as fast as he steamed then toward felicity, so fast he steams now toward perdition, i.e., away from God. Hence the retaining of the engine made his fall all the more terrible and his destruction more certain. And thus we reconcile the two: that man retained his former features of excellency, and that his destruction is sure except he be born again.


So, if you can follow me here, it's something like this:

There are some remarkably intelligent and gifted men. I thank God for the majesty of man created in the image of God. I thank God for their medical and engineering skill. I marvel at the gifts that God has given men.

These gifts are good.

I would be ungrateful to God for not thanking God for the excellencies that still reside in man because he's created in the image of God.

BUT, these men have powerful engines and they ascribe it all to themselves. They are ungrateful for their gifts. They don't thank the Creator for them. They pretend like He doesn't exist. They turn the powerful armada of their intellectual gifts and aim them back at the Creator who gave them to him.

And the wrath of God is poured out for this ingratitude.

Never fail to thank God for the gifts of your fallen neighbor that benefit society greatly but, even as you're thanking God for gifts you recognize came from His hand, you need to proclaim the Gospel that God commands all men to repent for being the worst sort of ingrates to a Sovereign Who sits on high and laughs at all attempts to use the gifts He gives against Him.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (May 26, 2010)

I should have modelled my question more precisely. According to Romans 8:28 ALL THINGS work for GOOD to those who love God. So, to conclude, All things (INCLUDING THE DEEDS OF THE UNGODLY) work for GOOD, but only for the good of God's people, not for common good! How on earth could sinning ultimately bless anyone?

It's very important we see God's will as two wills: (1) God's will of decree and (2) God's will of command. God's will of decree meaning basically all that happens because God is in control of everything, and God's will of command meaning His revealed will, that is, all the commands of the Bible.

So, my final argument is, "God does not cause the ungodly to do any good, as to please Himself as described in Romans 8:8."


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## jwithnell (May 26, 2010)

Common grace would be the means of bringing good works through the ungodly. C. Van Til makes the comparison that a good work may _appear_ the same (a Christian and a non-Christian might work side by side in a disaster relief effort) but the_ root_ or the heart from which is springs is completely different so the work is different, but it would not appear so to man.


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## Bern (May 26, 2010)

Anything that is not of faith is sin. That just about sums it up. It doesn't matter how many seemingly selfless and "good" deeds a unregenerate person does, because they are doing all to the exclusion of God. All mans efforts to live apart from God is sin. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (May 26, 2010)

One thing is for sure, "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes." (Prov. 16:2)

All our ways are right in our own eyes. We act because we think it's the right thing to do. When we sin, we see no unrighteousness in our ways. It is, however, another thing, when we look back to what we've done. 

What Prov. 16:2 means is, "When one is about to do something, there is no hesitation." Even in a situation, where a person hesitates, the hesitation is gone, when he acts. It's very important to realize that there has never been a person on this planet that has ever done anything with hesitation.

When we sin, sin seems the best choice for us. Actually, when we sin, we don't realize we're sinning! Yes, our conscience convicts us of our sin BEFORE we sin and AFTER we've sinned, but never WHILE we're sinning!


There are two truths I want to bring up about the nature of the ungodly: 
1# They desire seeing the humble sin. (Rom. 1:32)
2# They cannot sleep until they've fulfilled their desire. (Proverb 14:6)


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## Dwimble (May 26, 2010)

"For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

God gives many good things to the ungodly, but in the end all those good things will be witnesses against those who perish.


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