# Audio specifically refuting Doug Wilson?



## RamistThomist (Dec 4, 2016)

I am not looking for generic, anti-FV audio. Scott Clark has some fine resources on that. But audio specifically refuting Doug Wilson. When I get in debates with Wilsonites and I point out what Jordan, Leithart et al say, they can respond, and seem to have quotes to back it up, "Yeah, but our master doesn't believe that." So I need stuff specifically taking his theology apart.


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## Justified (Dec 4, 2016)

Are the Wilsonites people you encounter in your non-electronic, so to speak, life? I remember you mentioning the the PCA was ravaged by FVers where you live. The FV holds virtually no sway where I live. No one at the PCA where I go ever talks about it. Almost none of the parishioners have ever heard about it, and those that have no very little about it.


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## Guido's Brother (Dec 4, 2016)

Doug Wilson signed the Joint Federal Vision Profession. So, whatever you can find refuting that, is also going to address his FV errors.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 4, 2016)

Not audio, but I'm sure you've run across Lane Keister's blog. He dealt a bit with justification by faith here:

https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/a-retraction/


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## johnny (Dec 5, 2016)

Justified said:


> Are the Wilsonites people you encounter in your non-electronic, so to speak, life? I remember you mentioning the the PCA was ravaged by FVers where you live. The FV holds virtually no sway where I live. No one at the PCA where I go ever talks about it. Almost none of the parishioners have ever heard about it, and those that have no very little about it.



I'm not surprised that they haven't heard of it (that's encouraging) but it's out there all right. 
We are in Australia and our old church was directly affected by it. 

Our Minister has informed us yesterday that the next sermon series is on refuting the Federal Vision heresy and we are not alone in this either, I know of two other Ministers in Australia who are also keen to tackle this issue, It needs to be discussed in the pulpit because those who hold to these errant views are subtle in how they present them. I thank the Puritanboard for giving us the "heads up" on it.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 5, 2016)

Justified said:


> Are the Wilsonites people you encounter in your non-electronic, so to speak, life? I remember you mentioning the the PCA was ravaged by FVers where you live. The FV holds virtually no sway where I live. No one at the PCA where I go ever talks about it. Almost none of the parishioners have ever heard about it, and those that have no very little about it.



Both. For a while the FV was kind of the background among churches where I live. By the grace of God there has been the beginning of a small reformation among the churches, so the darkness of FV is in a small retreat.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 5, 2016)

Guido's Brother said:


> Doug Wilson signed the Joint Federal Vision Profession. So, whatever you can find refuting that, is also going to address his FV errors.



That's true. Thanks.


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## Bill The Baptist (Dec 5, 2016)

ReformedReidian said:


> Guido's Brother said:
> 
> 
> > Doug Wilson signed the Joint Federal Vision Profession. So, whatever you can find refuting that, is also going to address his FV errors.
> ...



Doug Wilson is kind of like the Pope Francis of FV. He tends to say things in a way where he can later deny that he said them, so he can be a bit tough to actually refute.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 5, 2016)

Bill The Baptist said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > Guido's Brother said:
> ...



Bingo. And he is a brilliant rhetorician and wordsmith.

The problem is that people in my area who otherwise see that the FV rejects the New Birth and holds to the same view of Justification as the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, latch on to what Wilson says regarding cultural issues.

I just need to find some audio (I am an oral learner and drive a lot) that refutes him where it matters: covenant and justification. 

I recently got in a debate where I refuted a Wilsonite on Presbyterian Govt and Wilson's anabaptistic non-ordination.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Dec 5, 2016)

Although not "point by point" Wilson specific, Monergism.com has a good bit of critique of the FV. And see also http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...urceOnly=true&keywordwithin=The+Federal+Visio


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Dec 5, 2016)

ReformedReidian said:


> I am not looking for generic, anti-FV audio. Scott Clark has some fine resources on that. But audio specifically refuting Doug Wilson. When I get in debates with Wilsonites and I point out what Jordan, Leithart et al say, they can respond, and seem to have quotes to back it up, "Yeah, but our master doesn't believe that." So I need stuff specifically taking his theology apart.


A few starting places:

http://heidelblog.net/2013/11/striking-at-the-vitals-of-religion-understanding-the-federal-vision-an/
http://rscottclark.org/2012/09/more-resources-on-the-federal-vision/


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## Edm (Dec 5, 2016)

I followed the links to the articles by R Scott Clark. Knowing next to nothing about FV I was surprised to see Bahnsen mentioned as someone whom FV advocates studied. Is there evidence that he was a proponent? Not trying to hijack.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 5, 2016)

Edm said:


> I followed the links to the articles by R Scott Clark. Knowing next to nothing about FV I was surprised to see Bahnsen mentioned as someone whom FV advocates studied. Is there evidence that he was a proponent? Not trying to hijack.



He died before it got going. In some audio tapes he made some very unguarded statements on covenant. But he also preached one of the most powerful anti-Roman Catholic sermons I ever heard, and he affirmed both Covenant of Works and imputation--something FVers are fuzzy on.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Dec 5, 2016)

Edm said:


> I followed the links to the articles by R Scott Clark. Knowing next to nothing about FV I was surprised to see Bahnsen mentioned as someone whom FV advocates studied. Is there evidence that he was a proponent? Not trying to hijack.


See:
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/42864-Why-is-Bahnsen-linked-to-FV


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## Edm (Dec 5, 2016)

Thank you. I see that the exact sentence I was asking about has been discussed before.


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## TylerRay (Dec 6, 2016)

Edm said:


> I followed the links to the articles by R Scott Clark. Knowing next to nothing about FV I was surprised to see Bahnsen mentioned as someone whom FV advocates studied. Is there evidence that he was a proponent? Not trying to hijack.





> As such, the FV movement has had disproportionate influence on ex-fundamentalists who've discovered Reformed theology. Instead of discovering Calvin, Ursinus, and Hodge, they've discovered Rushdooney and Bahnsen (who gave them virtually divinely-approved answers to all their ethical questions) and Wilson and Barach and Schlissel (online) and the other leaders of the FV movement.



If this is what you're referring to, Clark's point is the fact that FV folks hold to a basically theonomic ethic. Many of them have backed off from the language of Christian Reconstructionism because they don't like its connotations, but they still affirm most or all of its tenants. In this way and in others, the folks involved in the FV churches are a few steps removed from classical Reformed theology.

I feel I need to clarify: by "a few steps removed," I do _not_ mean to say that their theology is just a little bit different than classical Reformed theology. What I mean to say is that they haven't gone to classical Reformed theologians for their views. Instead, they have adopted theology that has been filtered down through Kuyper, Schilder, Rushdoony, Shepherd, Frame, and others, and has picked up some very peculiar features along the way. Tweak Reformed theology enough, and what you wind up with in the end is not Reformed theology at all.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 7, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Edm said:
> 
> 
> > I followed the links to the articles by R Scott Clark. Knowing next to nothing about FV I was surprised to see Bahnsen mentioned as someone whom FV advocates studied. Is there evidence that he was a proponent? Not trying to hijack.
> ...



Speaking as a former theonomist, the best way to put it is that they didn't really pay attention to the proper supports tot he Reformed intellectual infrastructure, which is why many weren't too bothered about denying law/gospel and CoW.


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## zsmcd (Dec 7, 2016)

I don't know of anything _refuting_ the man and his theology, but I do know that he is currently teaching through the Westminster Confession at New Saint Andrews and those audio recording are available via podcasts. Seems to be a good opportunity to hear what the man believes concerning Westminsterian doctrine. http://www.nsa.edu/nsa-podcast/

I gave a listen to his lecture on chapter VII, dealing with the covenant of works, and he does show his cards in regards to disagreeing with the confession. It was a while back though, so I can't give too much commentary on what he said there.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 7, 2016)

zsmcd said:


> I don't know of anything _refuting_ the man and his theology, but I do know that he is currently teaching through the Westminster Confession at New Saint Andrews and those audio recording are available via podcasts. Seems to be a good opportunity to hear what the man believes concerning Westminsterian doctrine. http://www.nsa.edu/nsa-podcast/
> 
> I gave a listen to his lecture on chapter VII, dealing with the covenant of works, and he does show his cards in regards to disagreeing with the confession. It was a while back though, so I can't give too much commentary on what he said there.



I read all of the blog articles he did years ago on the Confession. Granted, he changes his views a bit, so those might not be too accurate.


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