# Question about determinism



## Toasty (Jul 19, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, can something be guaranteed to happen just by allowing it to happen? Is it possible for certain consequences to follow inevitably just by allowing something to happen?


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## timfost (Jul 19, 2015)

See Calvin's _Institutes_ 1.18.1-3 below (ctrl + F "permission"):

http://files.puritanboard.com/institutes/1_18.htm#1.18.1


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## jwright82 (Aug 7, 2015)

Toasty said:


> Just out of curiosity, can something be guaranteed to happen just by allowing it to happen? Is it possible for certain consequences to follow inevitably just by allowing something to happen?



Who are we talking about? Us or God? We are finite and therefore have no exact knowledge of the future but are designed by God to be able to make pretty good guesses. Just because we allow something to happen doesn't mean it will happen. If I let my friend drink and drive it doesn't mean he or she will kill someone only that there is a greater chance of that happening than if he or she were sober.


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## MW (Aug 8, 2015)

Toasty said:


> Just out of curiosity, can something be guaranteed to happen just by allowing it to happen? Is it possible for certain consequences to follow inevitably just by allowing something to happen?



No, it is impossible; just as it is impossible to foresee something as future which has not been positively determined. The reformed faith insists that permission of sin is not "bare" or "idle," but is effectively bound, ordered, and governed by divine providence. See especially WCF 5.4.


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## timfost (Aug 8, 2015)

MW said:


> No, it is impossible; just as it is impossible to foresee something as future which has not been positively determined. The reformed faith insists that permission of sin is not "bare" or "idle," but is effectively bound, ordered, and governed by divine providence. See especially WCF 5.4.



Exactly! This is why I referenced the _Institutes_. Calvin speaks about the weakness to assign the certainty of God's decree to bare "permission." We can properly speak about permission only when we understand it in terms of His inviolable decree. And when we accept this doctrine by faith, we affirm with the Belgic:



> For His power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner, even then when devils and wicked men act unjustly. And as to what He does surpassing human understanding, we will not curiously inquire into farther than our capacity will admit of; but with the greatest humility and reverence adore the righteous judgments of God, which are hid from us, contenting ourselves that we are pupils of Christ, to learn only those things which He has revealed to us in His Word, without transgressing these limits. (Article 13)


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## Toasty (Aug 9, 2015)

jwright82 said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity, can something be guaranteed to happen just by allowing it to happen? Is it possible for certain consequences to follow inevitably just by allowing something to happen?
> ...



I was talking about God. Man cannot guarantee that something will come to pass in the future.


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## jwright82 (Aug 10, 2015)

Toasty said:


> jwright82 said:
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> > Toasty said:
> ...



There is a lot in reformed orthodoxy on this in relation to God's decrees and his essential freedom.


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