# I had an interesting day today



## StainlessThroughGrace (Oct 26, 2008)

I spoke to two very strong christians and asked them about Calvinism. They believe that they are Calvinists, but responded that they believe in "free will and predestination." Regardless of it being a contradiction in terms, I was broken, because they seemed to be so strong in faith.

So I got home, and spoke to my mum about it (an Arminian of an Evangelical Church). I told her about Romans 9, made references to Pharoah being hardened and Saul's conversion near Damascus. She still didn't believe that God makes the choices. So I continued with as many references in the Bible as I could think of. I couldn't remember the chapter and verse of one, so I gave up on that verse and went on. On the verge of giving up, I quoted Ephesians 1:11. All of a sudden, she said "I believe." After everything (I could barely understand her not listening to Romans 9), I almost said, "No you don't." She continued. She said that she felt gratitude to God for choosing her and that she couldn't believe that he had chosen someone (a wretch) like her. At this point, I knew that she truly believed. 

Now I am almost completely speechless at what God has done today.

_Sunday, 26th of October 2008_


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## toddpedlar (Oct 26, 2008)

Wonderful news about your mother! Praise God from whom all blessings flow...

On the other topic, I wonder whether you understood those friends properly. I believe, as did Calvin and Jonathan Edwards (and the rest of the orthodox reformed) that we have a will that is uncompelled, and hence free - but bound to our nature. Hence, to argue that one believes in free will AND in God's sovereign predestination and ordaining of all things can be compatible as long as you believe in what the Bible teaches about the will - that is, free agency - not autonomy. Is their perspective really a contradictory one? That is, do they profess an autonomy of human will? If so, then you're right - there's a stark contradiction... but perhaps that's not what they meant... ?


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## Herald (Oct 26, 2008)

Flip, continue to encourage your mother in the Word. Thank you for sharing that.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 26, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Wonderful news about your mother! Praise God from whom all blessings flow...
> 
> On the other topic, I wonder whether you understood those friends properly. I believe, as did Calvin and Jonathan Edwards (and the rest of the orthodox reformed) that we have a will that is uncompelled, and hence free - but bound to our nature. Hence, to argue that one believes in free will AND in God's sovereign predestination and ordaining of all things can be compatible as long as you believe in what the Bible teaches about the will - that is, free agency - not autonomy. Is their perspective really a contradictory one? That is, do they profess an autonomy of human will? If so, then you're right - there's a stark contradiction... but perhaps that's not what they meant... ?



This was my thought as well. Perhaps they weren't stating a belief in libertarian free will.


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## StainlessThroughGrace (Oct 26, 2008)

> On the other topic, I wonder whether you understood those friends properly. I believe, as did Calvin and Jonathan Edwards (and the rest of the orthodox reformed) that we have a will that is uncompelled, and hence free - but bound to our nature. Hence, to argue that one believes in free will AND in God's sovereign predestination and ordaining of all things can be compatible as long as you believe in what the Bible teaches about the will - that is, free agency - not autonomy. Is their perspective really a contradictory one? That is, do they profess an autonomy of human will? If so, then you're right - there's a stark contradiction... but perhaps that's not what they meant... ?


The conversation with both went on for a while. Unconditional election was named Hyper-Calvinism by one of them. I'm positive that they were Arminians in disguise.


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## Grace Alone (Oct 26, 2008)

That is wonderful news about your Mom, Flip!!!


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## toddpedlar (Oct 26, 2008)

StainlessThroughGrace said:


> > On the other topic, I wonder whether you understood those friends properly. I believe, as did Calvin and Jonathan Edwards (and the rest of the orthodox reformed) that we have a will that is uncompelled, and hence free - but bound to our nature. Hence, to argue that one believes in free will AND in God's sovereign predestination and ordaining of all things can be compatible as long as you believe in what the Bible teaches about the will - that is, free agency - not autonomy. Is their perspective really a contradictory one? That is, do they profess an autonomy of human will? If so, then you're right - there's a stark contradiction... but perhaps that's not what they meant... ?
> 
> 
> The conversation with both went on for a while. Unconditional election was named Hyper-Calvinism by one of them. I'm positive that they were Arminians in disguise.



Well, then they're confused. Ah well - you have great news to celebrate, before worrying about this.


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## Ivan (Oct 26, 2008)

Flip, what you tell us about your mum brings me great encouragment...thank you!


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## BlackCalvinist (Oct 27, 2008)

Very encouraging.


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## Scott1 (Oct 27, 2008)

> Ephesians 2:8-9
> 
> 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 
> 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



It can be overwhelming to understand and believe God is 100% responsible for election, justification and adoption.

The verse above tells us the (saving) faith we put in Christ is an (unmerited) gift of God. This is something you might discuss with your mother. God gives us an ability we did not have in our unregenerated self, the ability to place and rest in faith in Christ alone for salvation.

(Saving) faith is more than mere awareness of Christ's claims as Lord and Savior, more than mentally assenting to them. It involves these but involves more than that- it takes a transferring of trust from self to Christ and resting, abiding in that alone to constitute "saving" faith. We cannot do that in our natural, unregenerated self because there is a tendency, bias toward sin. 

When God changes our constituent nature as human beings, every aspect of our being is affected- mind, will, emotions, soul and we are now, by God's grace truly free to trust in and rest in Christ alone for salvation.
 
However, we cannot change our constituent nature. It takes a miracle that only God can do.


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