# Sciptural Warrant for Women teaching Women? (Thread split)



## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

This topic is split off from one of the Byrd threads:



A.Joseph said:


> I think we are missing an opportunity. We have Mrs. Tim Keller blogging, some female authors (if I’m reading the names right) writing in Table Talk. There are different temperaments, but most importantly, what is lawful? Not, what is current. …
> 
> Why should a woman be permitted to lead a woman’s Bible study? Where is the biblical warrant and justification even for that?

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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

I think Titus 2 is the basis.

“3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”

These things do require an understanding of the Bible.

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## ZackF (Mar 11, 2022)

Let the participants note this branch off thread is not in the members only area.

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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

ZackF said:


> Let the participants note this branch off thread is not in the members only area.


Thanks. I should have noted that. It is a topic for a general audience.


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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

VictorBravo said:


> I think Titus 2 is the basis.
> 
> “3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks. But a limited scope of instruction and influence, right?

Also, teaching comes in various forms. Is that leading by example, sharing wisdom, or formal instruction? I could see topical instruction but, again, the scope may be limited based on the portion you quoted.


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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

Let’s use *Beth Moore *as a model.

I know she’s not Reformed, but let’s pretend she is. In what areas, including all her platforms, is what she does biblical and in what areas is it not? (She appears to have had some influence or inspiration for some of the previously discussed if my recollection of their Twitter exchanges are correct).

How has her areas of influence grown and expanded? In what ways?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501380590557409284


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## Grafted In (Mar 11, 2022)

The discussions of these recent posts have generated in my mind a few questions. Are the women on the PB who add their insights to the various theological discussions that take place here teaching, in some sense, those who consider their posts? Should men genuinely take female member's comments into consideration? Would some members argue that this should be a men only forum, because women shouldn't be thinking, forming opinions, and writing about such things?


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## Ben Zartman (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> The discussions of these recent posts have generated in my mind a few questions. Are the women on the PB who add their insights to the various theological discussions that take place here teaching, in some sense, those who consider their posts? Should men genuinely take female member's comments into consideration? Would some members argue that this should be a men only forum, because women shouldn't be thinking, forming opinions, and writing about such things?


No, because they are not speaking from a position of authority, but expressing their thoughts and opinions as though we were sitting on couches in someone's living room. It is a place of informal discussion here, not a regulated meeting of the church.

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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> The discussions of these recent posts have generated in my mind a few questions. Are the women on the PB who add their insights to the various theological discussions that take place here teaching, in some sense, those who consider their posts? Should men genuinely take female member's comments into consideration? Would some members argue that this should be a men only forum, because women shouldn't be thinking, forming opinions, and writing about such things?


So how many Beth Moore books do you have on your shelves? I’m just kidding. 

I think we are getting closer. Is Moore a bad teacher cause she’s a bad teacher or cause she’s unqualified? I would argue both….

Why are female leaders always synonymous with theological drift? Do women become female church leaders overnight? How does the progression start and then proceed? Let’s start there, not what you are hypothesizing.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> Also, teaching comes in various forms. Is that leading by example, sharing wisdom, or formal instruction? I could see topical instruction but, again, the scope may be limited based on the portion you quoted.


Good questions. I would not say limited in scope or method so much as limited by the extent of authority. Older women are given some authority to admonish and teach younger women by their words, behavior, example, and knowledge of God's word.

"that the word of God may not be blasphemed" is broad in scope. It is directly related to "that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness." You have to know what is consistent with holiness, which is not personal opinion or whim, but what is revealed in God's word.

I think we can assume, when Paul wrote, that the context was more informal than formal, but trying to bound that with definitions can be problematic. Mothers teaching their children (even boy children) the catechisms seems to fall under this heading--such teaching might even follow a schedule and include tests. Is that formal or informal?

I think that distinction does not matter. I think we have to evaluate on whether the older women are fulfilling their duties to the extent that they have been directed. 

One negative factor to help that evaluation: does the teaching undermine the authoritative preaching of the Word? If so, it is beyond bounds.

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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> Why are female leaders always synonymous with theological drift? Do women become female church leaders overnight? How does the progression start and then proceed? Let’s start there, not what you are hypothesizing.


One thing to point out for clarity: historically, probably more theological drift has been caused by male leaders. I submit that the basic reason is grounded in pride. "I have a new insight!"

If a woman becomes a church leader, we confessional types can simply say, objectively, something is wrong because it goes against plain meaning of Scripture.

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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

At risk of sounding like a white knight, I am blessed by my sisters in Christ on this board.

My fear is the women who are set up….

This is permissible…. This is ok….. Then all of a sudden when they have a platform, an opinion, a podcast, and then a book deal….. they are told to make a sandwich. Let’s avoid these extremes. Does anyone tell Tim Keller to make sandwich?


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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> Then all of a sudden when they have a platform, an opinion, a podcast, and then a book deal…..


I think that also is a good observation. In a time when anyone can obtain a large following (and money!) without oversight and evaluation of whether the message undermines authoritative preaching, disaster often follows.

I don't have a solution. Big publishing and internet blogs are beyond control. I suppose we could become part of the public dialog, shouting in the marketplace of ideas. Some are cut out for that.

My sphere of influence is focused on the local church and what seeks to undermine it.

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## Grafted In (Mar 11, 2022)

Ben Zartman said:


> No, because they are not speaking from a position of authority, but expressing their thoughts and opinions as though we were sitting on couches in someone's living room. It is a place of informal discussion here, not a regulated meeting of the church.


Is a book written by a woman more akin to a discussion on someone's living room couch or a regulated meeting of the church?

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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> Is a book written by a woman more akin to a discussion on someone's living room couch or a regulated meeting of the church?


Depends on who publishes it and who endorses it.

Blogs, too. Rambling thoughts that nobody responds to are more like mumbling in your living room when nobody is there.

But if those who seem to be “someone” cheer you on, then you are becoming authoritative.

It still is not a church setting, but it can impact the church.

Servetus got into trouble for what he published. He apparently had an audience large enough to make him a threat to the church. Of course, our day is different in consequences, but the problem is old.

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## Grafted In (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> So how many Beth Moore books do you have on your shelves? I’m just kidding.


I'm sorry, but I don't get the joke? 

You're participating in a forum that allows women to assert their opinions of Scripture along side of those of men without distinction. Women are even allowed to disagree with and offer correction to men. I don't ever recall you or anyone else telling them that they are out of place. I'm simply wondering what you and others make of that.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> You're participating in a forum that allows women to assert their opinions of Scripture along side of those of men without distinction. Women are even allowed to disagree with and offer correction to men. I don't ever recall you or anyone else telling them that they are out of place. I'm simply wondering what you and others make of that.


Priscilla chimed in to help Apollos understand the Gospel more fully. It was done in a private setting:

Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 

We often have informal gatherings at someone's house. I'm an ordained pastor. If a sister asks me something along the lines of "in your sermon you said ___, but I thought that was confusing because of _______", you can be sure I will listen carefully to what she has to say. It may be I was unclear in what I spoke. It may be because I missed something important. 

In any event, it causes to us see what Scripture says to clear it up. 

I don't take it as a challenge to authority in that setting, but a genuine desire to understand.


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## Grafted In (Mar 11, 2022)

VictorBravo said:


> It still is not a church setting, but it can impact the church.


Can the shared opinions, theological ramblings, and corrective rebuttals of women on this forum make an impact on the church?


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## Andrew35 (Mar 11, 2022)

Ben Zartman said:


> No, because they are not speaking from a position of authority, but expressing their thoughts and opinions as though we were sitting on couches in someone's living room. It is a place of informal discussion here, not a regulated meeting of the church.


Exactly.


VictorBravo said:


> Depends on who publishes it and who endorses it.
> 
> Blogs, too. Rambling thoughts that nobody responds to are more like mumbling in your living room when nobody is there.
> 
> ...


This is a good point.

A book is an utterance. Like a speech. The level of authority it's accorded is highly dependent on a variety of internal and external factors.

Granted, because of the high publishing threshold we should expect a more reflective, thoughtful product at the end that better represents the mind and thought of the author.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> Can the shared opinions, theological ramblings, and corrective rebuttals of women on this forum make an impact on the church?


Just a quick response then I have to run: less likely of an impact than other settings. Our forum is well represented by folks who are quick to point out problems.


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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't get the joke?
> 
> You're participating in a forum that allows women to *assert their opinions of Scripture along side of those of men without distinction. Women are even allowed to disagree with and offer correction to men.* I don't ever recall you or anyone else telling them that they are out of place. I'm simply wondering what you and others make of that.


Hmmm…. I never thought of it. But I don’t believe any of those things happened to me here. Interestingly enough I don’t think many of the women I have encountered on here have done much of any of that in my experience for whatever reason. I know they are active but not in those specific ways in my encounters, at least with me.

I think Victor is making some important distinctions that makes me wonder if some accepted practices and norms are indicative of an often slight and general drift in certain pockets.


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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

VictorBravo said:


> Priscilla chimed in to help Apollos understand the Gospel more fully. It was done in a private setting:
> 
> Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
> 
> ...


Those have been my experiences. Mixed groups with an elder running the show. Women present are active asking questions and sharing experiences but as a learner, seeker and liver of the Christian experience along with the rest of us.

I haven’t had to be admonished or corrected in those settings.


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## retroGRAD3 (Mar 11, 2022)

VictorBravo said:


> I think Titus 2 is the basis.
> 
> “3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
> 
> ...


Defined right from the word of God. We cannot do any better than this.

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## retroGRAD3 (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> Let’s use *Beth Moore *as a model.
> 
> I know she’s not Reformed, but let’s pretend she is. In what areas, including all her platforms, is what she does biblical and in what areas is it not? (She appears to have had some influence or inspiration for some of the previously discussed if my recollection of their Twitter exchanges are correct).
> 
> ...


I don't think Beth Moore does anything biblical. I am of the belief she is not a Christian at all. She claims Jesus as her boyfriend, direct revelation from God, is a raging feminist, is really into CRT, and has been "preaching" for the past 20 or so years. There are other things, but I think the list is a good summary.

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## Jack K (Mar 11, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> Let’s use *Beth Moore *as a model.


Try to take what follows in a gentle tone, which is how I intend it...



A.Joseph said:


> Let’s use *Beth Moore *as a model.



But as soon as you do that—make it about a particular person instead of a topic or general rule—I (and probably some others) will decide not to participate in the thread. Why is that? Because we generally see more harm than good in an online, public discussion about what such-and-such a believer is doing wrong, and that's what it ends up becoming.

I do wish that more often we could discuss a perfectly legitimate topic (To what extent may a woman teach other women?) and resist the urge to discuss a specific person (To what extant is Teacher X right or wrong?). I understand that sometimes a person's public teaching or behavior might need to be discussed, and sometimes I too will join in. But in a case like this, it feels like a desire to discuss the Bible gets supplanted by an eagerness to critique someone. It doesn't seem quite healthy.

I know, that might not have been the intent this time. Then again, maybe a bit of desire to flirt with gossip _was_ there, at least in the background. Who am I to say for sure? But for me, I know I get tempted that way and I have to actively resist when a thread goes in that kind of direction. And this time, I decided to point it out in case others face the same struggle. Perhaps someone finds my words to be a helpful challenge.

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## lynnie (Mar 11, 2022)

Not to beat a dead horse at the PB or bang my head against a brick wall, but, if you don't believe in wives wearing headcoverings in the gathering, as a symbol of being under her husband's authority, in the presence of angels, then these sorts of discussions about women in the church and what they do and don't do, and male authority and so forth, avoid a crucial command. I happen to think the problems today would never have arisen to such a degree if women still wore headcoverings in church. 

On another note, one specific complaint I have about women's ministry is not the occasional weeknight. I don't want to go to them particularly, but for some women they mean a great deal. Fine. But the pressure to go to weekend retreats can be enormous, and if you buck it the way I did, women get so offended. ( not where I am now, but its been bad in my past). Why should a woman who prefers to be home with her husband and children instead of at some hotel with a speaker for the weekend be criticized and condemned? It makes no sense. If your church has even a hint of that mentality I hope you pastors will speak firmly to it.

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## A.Joseph (Mar 11, 2022)

Jack K said:


> Try to take what follows in a gentle tone, which is how I intend it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jack, Beth Moore could care less what you and I say about her. Anyway, I have nothing personal against that woman at all. She’s a nice lovely woman. I’m just talking about what she’s made of herself. Is it a “Christian” enterprise or something else? Does she inspire other women to engage in similar pursuits (in the name of Jesus)? She is kind of a trailblazer but I do think most high profile Christian women ministries are very weak in doctrine and theology. Is it the chicken (natural authority) or the egg (natural ability) in these areas that this is so? (Or is it because the world is not going to elevate a woman promoting sound doctrine regardless? ). I think it’s both as per God’s design. I’m not looking to disparage women. But typing intent is harder than talking it….

I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and official propounders of the gospel.



> “In the world of Bible teachers, Beth Moore is a rock star.
> 
> She packs sporting arenas and big-name churches. She has written dozens of best-selling books. She has an outsize social media following.
> 
> ...











Beth Moore reignites debate over whether women can preach


In the world of Bible teachers, Beth Moore is a rock star. But among some of the male leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention, she also has become a liability.




www.baptiststandard.com


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## VictorBravo (Mar 12, 2022)

A.Joseph said:


> I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and propounders of the gospel.


I cannot speak for any other women, but I thought it worthwhile to relate posthumously an exchange I had with my wife years ago.

As I've related before, God converted us in our middle age. My wife had been an avid feminist up to that point. Our discussions of Scripture led us to devour everything we could about and from the Bible. Lauren could read Greek very well, better than I could at the time.

One day the topic over dinner was women preachers. I mentioned 1 Timothy 2. She opened up her Greek Bible and read the chapter. She read the English translations. She went back and looked at the Greek.

I said, "Paul tells us that women shouldn't have authority over or teach men, at least in the formal setting of church."

Her words: "Aye Commander. That's what the text says."

Then she said, "so teach me!"

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## jw (Mar 12, 2022)

Some of you may find this pastoral letter informative, edifying, or both:





__





Pastoral Letter on Christian Conversation | Christ Covenant Reformed







www.christcovenantrpc.org

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## Ben Zartman (Mar 12, 2022)

Grafted In said:


> Is a book written by a woman more akin to a discussion on someone's living room couch or a regulated meeting of the church?


A regulated meeting of the church is where God's people are gathered in a local assembly to worship God and learn from His word, on the Lord's Day. Members of the same church may meet on other occasions as they desire, but they cannot be required to. If the book is read on one's own time, is read with others on a Tuesday, is paid any attention to in any other context than the formal gathering of saints to worship, it's just like a discussion in someone's living room.
I can choose to go or not go to any mid-week book reading, and can choose not to read any book. But I'm duty-bound to attend my local church every Lord's Day that I can, and to give attention to the preaching. If they bring in a woman to preach, there's a problem.

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## Jeri Tanner (Mar 12, 2022)

The paper Josh linked to above from Rev. Ruddell is pure gold and I am sobered. It’s nothing I didn’t ‘know’… but the online nature of conversations can lead one on. 

“These are just a few of the Scriptures that we reference when we think on the mutual edification that is commanded to all the people of God. When we think on this, compare Scripture with Scripture, and when we look to our fathers in the faith as to what shape this mutual edification takes, it must first be said that this encouragement to private conversation and edification does not undo the rest of what we have already heard, such that in private conversation we ought to feel free to “teach” in the sense that the Lord has established in the offices of the Church. The Scripture has coupled authority and teaching together specifically, so that enforcement and requirement accompanies that teaching function, and responsibility, as seen above. 

“As such then, in private conversation, we must retain a proper modesty, and knowledge of our station, so as to avoid becoming an unofficial officer, and speaking as if we had authority that does not pertain to us. A good illustration of this is how we would speak to our children, as opposed to how we might speak to another of equal station. These 5th commandment relations are quite clear in Scripture, and in our standards, so that there should be no question as to the propriety of this counsel. 

“When we speak to one another privately, as equals, let us speak in a way that befits that station. In the case of our Pastor, think of the manner he might speak in a theological conversation with another Pastor, and compare that to the way he might preach his own understanding of a passage of Scripture in the context of a sermon, where the authority of the office is appropriately applied. Suppose that same Pastor is called before his Presbytery to give an answer for that view that he preached—we all acknowledge that his tone would be different as he gives an answer to those who are over him in authority. In this example, on the same Scripture teaching, he interacts with others as a superior, as an inferior, and as an equal. The differences and equality of station ought then to be evident in our conversations, whether online, in emails or other correspondence, and in our conversations in groups or one-on-one.

“When pursuing a conversation on a public social media site, keep these things in mind, along with the other warnings given at the beginning of this letter. Speak modestly, in a conciliatory fashion, avoid pontification, and please remember the inherent difficulties of that venue, and the liability to be heard wrongly, or to hear wrongly. 

“Do not use such venues as a pulpit for your own views, or a debate platform. One way to avoid this is to quote our standards, point to our Pastor’s sermons, other books, articles, writings, etc. that can be read apart from confrontation, considered, and pursued in more private discussion. Slow it down, consider your place, and the places of others in your conversations, and at all times, speaking as equals, remember that the folks you’re discussing these things with have Elders and Pastors, parents and husbands over them, and that they will give answer for those under their charge. 

“Send them to their sessions for the resolutions of their cases of conscience or other questions. Do not be hesitant to ask a wife if she has spoken with her husband about this matter—you will be reminding her of her 5thcommandment responsibility before the Lord, and helping her to uprightness in that responsibility.”





__





Pastoral Letter on Christian Conversation | Christ Covenant Reformed







www.christcovenantrpc.org

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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2022)

Outside of discussing the formal worship Services, I have been thoroughly reprimanded for my thinking by wonderful godly women several times. We are all believers and we all have mature and not so mature relationships. I especially appreciate those relationships who are not intimidated by me and will challenge me in my walk. I have had many mothers and sisters I have grown up with. Come on guys. Your Sisters never challenged you nor loved you enough to brow beat you as only a Sister could?

Let's play out the roles. How about putting women in Administrative Roles? Are they not authoritative in a sense? What other jobs and school classes should we worry about? Are women allowed to be supervisors or teachers of men in life? 

Just a note, this is a cultural problem as in the last half of this Century roles have changed. Women even want to join combat military service as a common thing. That is not normal.


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## Polanus1561 (Mar 12, 2022)

Just to filter opinions:

Anyone have objections to an older lady having private bible studies with a younger female teenage believer whose parents are unbelievers?


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## A.Joseph (Mar 12, 2022)

I just think slippery slopes are a real thing. I think our perceptions easily stray from God’s eternal intent. Men are getting weaker, less disciplined and less accountable to God. Those voids are being filled in all sorts of ways. At worst we are tyrants and abusers…. and then things really get turned upside down. None of those things are excuses for breaking from scripture. But if I think about it, I’d rather defer to the ordained and appointed on these matters. Let the seasoned servants share their knowledge and experience. I believe men like Victor (and others here, as well as those quoted and sourced) are proven and trustworthy on these matters. So, thank you!


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## lynnie (Mar 12, 2022)

Anthony- 

In a rush but wanted to respond "I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and official propounders of the gospel."

I've pondered this broader subject a thousand times. Why would a woman, married, whose husband wants children, tell him she does not want kids ( PCA staff hubby)? Why would a PCA Pastor's wife with beautiful little toddlers announce she doesn't want to be home but wants an adult career? I'm not picking on the PCA, but its where I have the most confessional experience. 

Why does a pretty unsaved woman decide to chop off body parts and become a man? Why is social media infected with "gay Christians" who announce their perverted identity even if celibate? Why these perverted and twisted desires? What makes a man want to do it with a five year old girl? My husband said he has experienced sinful but natural lust when a certain type of girl walks by parading herself, but he never, ever, has imagined the twistedness of pedophilia. It is revolting and infuriating to him when he hears of it. Why do some guys twist internally so badly with that, including church leaders? 

I never wanted to be a pastor or elder or preacher. Is that just grace? Why would a women fall into a twisted desire not natural to her femininity? 

Is it the amil end of days when Satan is unloosed? Is it unclean spirits flooding the world? A spirit of rebellion? The way people grew up? Not loving the truth and being given over to delusion? Childhood trauma for the more twisted things? Chemicals and hormones in the food and air and water affecting the brain and demasculizing men? The church failing in some way, or ways? Lack of prayer and fasting? Ignoring the command to wear headcoverings? Worshipping the creation instead of God? Failing to give thanks and be grateful? 

I don't know. Its tough living in the world. Its really tough for me to interact with women who have an unnatural bent in their soul. One christian woman I care about, with significant trauma, just went lesbian. I find myself trying to figure this stuff out in my mind but feel like I have no clarity and no real wisdom. 

I can't answer, maybe somebody else will.


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## A.Joseph (Mar 12, 2022)

lynnie said:


> Anthony-
> 
> In a rush but wanted to respond "I wouldn’t mind hearing the women on this board explain why they have no desire to be church elders and official propounders of the gospel."
> 
> ...


I used to blog. I was building a little bit of a following online and social media. I was getting some kind of fix from it. It probably felt like what those in the heat of the online battle felt. That only I can do what needs to be done for the preservation of this truth or the extinguishing of this sin from the church. I’m going to write a book about it or start a Facebook group to combat the lies and expose the wolves…. Eventually, I’m obsessed, and I can’t slow down. I’m pulpit and pen. And now I’m squandering my gifts. Or I’m a gay celibate Christian or an orthodox female church leader. Some specialized category of Christian and I’m fighting for those who have been scorned and disenfranchised. Are we bored with Jesus? That’s when we either get shaken down or go further south…..

I’m still recovering from my shakedown thankfully.

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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2022)

We mostly seem to be a people who have to hit rock bottom before things get better. smh

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## Andrew35 (Mar 12, 2022)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Outside of discussing the formal worship Services, I have been thoroughly reprimanded for my thinking by wonderful godly women several times. We are all believers and we all have mature and not so mature relationships. I especially appreciate those relationships who are not intimidated by me and will challenge me in my walk. I have had many mothers and sisters I have grown up with. Come on guys. Your Sisters never challenged you nor loved you enough to brow beat you as only a Sister could?
> 
> Let's play out the roles. How about putting women in Administrative Roles? Are they not authoritative in a sense? What other jobs and school classes should we worry about? Are women allowed to be supervisors or teachers of men in life?
> 
> Just a note, this is a cultural problem as in the last half of this Century roles have changed. Women even want to join combat military service as a common thing. That is not normal.


I have questions about a lot of this as well, regarding the natural role of women in authority over men in any context. But I keep coming back to the fact that in Biblical times, women masters were presumably in charge of male slaves, and the Scriptures are silent on it.

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## Smeagol (Mar 12, 2022)

Within the context of formal church meetings the best to be teachers are the elders. I am fine with elders selecting a gifted male member to teach in bible lessons (outside of worship) to help assess his being a potential officer. I am fine with women helping teach the little children classes, if they exist. Often this setting involves material selected by a session and the teacher is not presenting any material not selected by the session.

I also have no issue with women-only bible studies/prayer times outside of the formal public worship settings, assuming the session oversees the material selected. Some of my best memories are the men’s studies over a meal or a men’s work day in the community or church. I imagine the relationships I have strengthened in that environment would be the same when the women get to come together to sharpen one another. The women in our church, at times, will also get together to do service projects for individuals or groups in need within the community or congregation.

Certainly this can be abused and should be canceled if the husbands are counting on this to be lazy to their requirement to wash their wives in the word (family worship). Admittedly family worship is likely neglected more now than ever before.

I think it also wise to know who the wise older ladies are in the congregation that can be called on by a session to assist with certain sticky personal situations that may involve single women, single mothers, and other potential sensitive topics involving women. This can also help to protect the integrity of officers and shield all parties from unnecessary temptations.

I think the above can be done without usurping the authority of the officer’s and/or husbands as they can still maintain oversight and accountability. Over the years this is how I have best been able to conclude in light of the scriptures already shared and trying to avoid putting scripture against scripture and recognizing gifted women who can assist in some way without usurping authority, such as Paul getting help from Phoebe. And yes it is a hard No for me on the question of women serving as elder or deacon.

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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2022)

Andrew35 said:


> I keep coming back to the fact that in Biblical times, women masters were presumably in charge of male slaves, and the Scriptures are silent on it.


Would you want to expound on this?


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## Afterthought (Mar 12, 2022)

There are different kinds of authorities, including that of age and gifts, requiring different levels or kinds of respect or submission. See standard expositions of the Catechism on the 5th commandment, like Thomas Boston. These different kinds of authorities are all subordinate to official authorities in a person's life.

Teaching is inherently authoritative and requires authority to truly be teaching. The sort of authority backing it up will determine to what extent it should be heeded and how it should be heeded.

There is a natural authority that parents have over their children, and to some extent by extension, adults over children. Men are leaders by nature and only men are leaders by certain offices, so it is good--for both men and women--to prefer their leadership and to nurture it, even in situations where a woman might just as well do for a role.

This is a lot of natural theology or musing on general principles. So far as Titus is concerned, the things to be taught are a) privately (no office is set up or platform is given for official instruction) and b) behavior, not doctrine. As for Timothy, I understand the teaching forbidden to women to be related to doctrinal and Scriptural things, so I see no problem in principle with a woman teaching math or some other sort of topic to men at a school or university.

Situations will have a variety of circumstances to evaluate and apply the various principles about authority. Given the rampant feminism today, there will be some things that might be lawful in themselves but not wise for a woman to do so as to prevent scandal, and in some situations, it might be especially important to encourage men to step up and lead as they ought.

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## Andrew35 (Mar 12, 2022)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Would you want to expound on this?


Granted I'm reading a bit into the silence here, but business-owners like Lydia presumably had male servants, as would have a number of women in the church. Wouldn't even the wife of the patriarch have had authority over the male slaves--and wouldn't this also have been the case in ancient Israel? 

Let's go with ancient Israel, because I'm less certain about how it worked then. Maybe someone else knows more about the context here, but let's say a slave-owning ancient Israelite family lost the patriarch to a war, leaving the widow to run the household: would the slaves then transfer to someone else simply because a woman can't be in authority over a man?

I guess my point is the Bible never seems to address as a problem, to my knowledge.


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## LilyG (Mar 12, 2022)

Jeri Tanner said:


> When pursuing a conversation on a public social media site, keep these things in mind, along with the other warnings given at the beginning of this letter. Speak modestly, in a conciliatory fashion, avoid pontification, and please remember the inherent difficulties of that venue, and the liability to be heard wrongly, or to hear wrongly.



Loved that article. This is hard to remember and do online!

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Mar 12, 2022)

Andrew35 said:


> I have questions about a lot of this as well, regarding the natural role of women in authority over men in any context. But I keep coming back to the fact that in Biblical times, women masters were presumably in charge of male slaves, and the Scriptures are silent on it.


*1Sa 25:19 KJV* And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal.

Not sure about "silent". These servants were also young men as the hebrew word "na'ar" signifies and as the verse shows, they were Abigails, not Nabals, because she was under no obligation to tell him.


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## Andrew35 (Mar 12, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> *1Sa 25:19 KJV* And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal.
> 
> Not sure about "silent". These servants were also young men as the hebrew word "na'ar" signifies and as the verse shows, they were Abigails, not Nabals, because she was under no obligation to tell him.


I meant "silent" in terms of offering correction. But good reference; hadn't thought of that one.


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