# Ash Wed!



## etexas

So, pardon my ignorance, (save the jokes) celebrate with imposition of the Ashes today?


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## travis

My church had an early service with communion and the option for the imposition of ashes.


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## etexas

Cool, I was in the PCA for a little while I thought they did Ashes. I like it it is a good visual/tactile act as we enter into this Holy and blessed season. Oh! A blessed Lenten Season to all of you!


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## travis

And to you. We (Christ The King) celebrate with the rest of Christendom this time of reflection and repentance.


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## etexas

Glory!


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## wsw201

What are y'all giving up for lent?


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## travis

I will try to give up my complacency towards God's Holy Word. I confess that I often read more reformed literature than the Bible.


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## blhowes

Is it pretty common in Presbyterian churches to celebrate Ash Wednesday by putting ashes on the forehead and giving up something for Lent? In Reformed Baptist churches?


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## Davidius

Isn't this a Roman Catholic thing?


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## NaphtaliPress

In the more liturgical PCs it is not uncommon. The term _Presbyterian _is not so precise as it used to be.


blhowes said:


> Is it pretty common in Presbyterian churches to celebrate Ash Wednesday by putting ashes on the forehead and giving up something for Lent? In Reformed Baptist churches?


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## Theogenes

I gave up LENT for LENT... 
Actually, I don't practice Romanist rituals. Ah, the liberty which the Gospel brings!
Jim


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## Davidius

Jim Snyder said:


> I gave up LENT for LENT...
> Actually, I don't practice Romanist rituals. Ah, the liberty which the Gospel brings!
> Jim


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## etexas

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Isn't this a Roman Catholic thing?


The Romans would like to claim everything. The tradition is very old! They did not invent it.


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## Davidius

I follow Jesus said:


> The Romans would like to claim everything. The tradition is very old! They did not invent it.



Where did it come from then? I was pretty sure that Lent and Ash Wednesday were RC.


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## travis

We did not partake of it as a ritual, but as a time of reflection. It is on our church calendar, so we recognize it.


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## etexas

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Where did it come from then? I was pretty sure that Lent and Ash Wednesday were RC.


Yes they do celebrate it ,they also pray Does that make prayer Roman. If so logic dictates foresaking that as well.


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## travis

We also hold to the Nicene and Apostles Creed which was brought forth by what would be called the Catholic Church. Should we abandon those too?


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## ADKing

travis said:


> My church had an early service with communion and the option for the imposition of ashes.



Forgive my naivete. Are you all serious about this? In the PCA? This is quite disturbing indeed.


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## Me Died Blue

{Mod on}

I think David's question is clear enough, and does not need to be responded to with straw-men and smart comments. Of course there are beliefs and traditions we have in common with Rome, but in discussions on Reformed theology (especially worship), speaking of the "Roman teaching" on given topics is almost always used as simple shorthand for "the _*unique*_ or _*distinctive*_ Roman teaching" on the issue.

Responding with "Roman Catholics pray too, should we stop that?" is no more a relevant response to David's question than it would be to a question such as, "Isn't infused righteousness a Roman thing?" by which someone would clearly be speaking of it as a _uniquely_ Roman thing.

There is absolutely room for disagreement and discussion on the issue at hand, but please keep the smart comments and straw-men out of it.

{/Mod off}


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## etexas

joshua said:


> Where's the practice either described or prescribed (i.e. authorized) in Holy Scripture? I mean, prayer, praise, and preaching I see...but Lent?


Good question Joshua. It in not commanded in Holy Writ. BUT, those of us who are taking part are preparing our hearts for Ester Sunday. I will be spending 40 days in the Psalms and Praying for the persecuted Church worldwide. I am not under condemnation if I do not do this, nor am I expecting to be translated to heaven for my "piety" it is a devotional act! A gift if you will to my Risen Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. Here I stand, God help me. Amen


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## travis

ADKing said:


> Forgive my naivete. Are you all serious about this? In the PCA? This is quite disturbing indeed.



I am completely serious! There was a brief description of why we were doing it and also about how it is not mandated by God's Word. It was there for those who wish to partake.

It is an outward sign of inner repentance.


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## etexas

travis said:


> I am completely serious! There was a brief description of why we were doing it and also about how it is not mandated by God's Word. It was there for those who wish to partake.
> 
> It is an outward sign of inner repentance.


Right on!


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## travis

By the way, here is a small article about Lent written by our Associate Pastor, Clay Holland.

http://christtheking.com/documents/LentArticle2007.doc


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## ADKing

travis said:


> it is not mandated by God's Word.



Which is precisely why it is forbidden according to the PCA's own _professed _ standards. 

I know we have been around and around on the issue of holy days on this list before (several times a year, right?  ) but seriously...If people want to practice Anglican or Romish practices governed by their distinctive approaches to worship (which are different than those convictions expressed in the Westminster standards) why not just be honest about it and become Anglican or papists?


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## etexas

ADKing said:


> Which is precisely why it is forbidden according to the PCA's own _professed _ standards.
> 
> I know we have been around and around on the issue of holy days on this list before (several times a year, right?  ) but seriously...If people want to practice Anglican or Romish practices governed by their distinctive approaches to worship (which are different than those convictions expressed in the Westminster standards) why not just be honest about it and become Anglican or papists?


I am Anglican. Have you never read the 39 Articles. THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT!


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## travis

I follow Jesus said:


> I am Anglican. Have you never read the 39 Articles. THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT!



I think he was talking to me


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## BobVigneault

Lent is indeed a very old tradition. I see no reason why we can't, following our Christian liberty, use this season as a time to meditate on examination and sorrow for our sin. We are not compelled to. This makes sense for those of us who also use the Christmas season to teach our children about the importance of the incarnation.

There should be no protest against self examination. However, some of us will react, perhaps over react to the nonsense that accompanies lent. Getting ashes smeared on your forehead and walking around in public is not quiet self-examination. That is, and this is a former alter boy speaking, just plain goofy. Giving up chocolate or meat or anything is also silly and takes away from the serious practice of self-examination.

So when we ask, should we celebrate lent? we are bound to get loaded and pointed answers because we are really venting how we feel about the crazy trappings of the season. 

The question is, do you give special attention to self-examination during the lenten season? No one here is a papist, stop throwing that bomb.


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## etexas

travis said:


> I think he was talking to me


Perhaps. But he did make a NASTY little Roman Anglican "connection" I would not let that pass. It was a low blow.


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## etexas

BobVigneault said:


> Lent is indeed a very old tradition. I see no reason why we can't, following our Christian liberty, use this season as a time to meditate on examination and sorrow for our sin. We are not compelled to. This makes sense for those of us who also use the Christmas season to teach our children about the importance of the incarnation.
> 
> There should be no protest against self examination. However, some of us will react, perhaps over react to the nonsense that accompanies lent. Getting ashes smeared on your forehead and walking around in public is not quiet self-examination. That is, and this is a former alter boy speaking, just plain goofy. Giving up chocolate or meat or anything is also silly and takes away from the serious practice of self-examination.
> 
> So when we ask, should we celebrate lent? we are bound to get loaded and pointed answers because we are really venting how we feel about the crazy trappings of the season.
> 
> The question is, do you give special attention to self-examination during the lenten season? No one here is a papist, stop throwing that bomb.


Thank you Bob. No Reformed Anglican likes the Papist "bomb" thrown our way. It is very hurtful.


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## BobVigneault

I don't think Pastor Adam was comparing Anglicans to papists in a perjorative manner. He was surprised to find the practice in a PCA church. The PCA denom does not follow the 39 articles. Hence, if you are going act like a non-PCA church then go join another denom. Strong words but I wouldn't take them personally.


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## Redaimie

I observed lent when I was Roman Catholic but I don't anymore. I suppose it can still be a good thing to give something up for God but I would think if one is compelled to do something it would be better to do it in private. 

Maybe my thinking is off but I just don't see the need to go around with ashes on ones head.

Anyway this is what Martin Luther had to say.




> A sermon by Martin Luther from his Church Postil.
> 
> [The following sermon is taken from volume II:133-147 of The Sermons of Martin Luther, published by Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, MI). It was originally published in 1906 in English by Lutherans in All Lands Press (Minneapolis, MN), as The Precious and Sacred Writings of Martin Luther, vol. 11. The original title of this sermon appears below. The pagination from the Baker edition has been maintained for referencing. This e-text was scanned and edited by Richard P. Bucher, it is in the public domain and it may be copied and distributed without restriction.]
> 
> The Fast and the Temptation of Christ
> 
> Page 134 ---------------------------
> 
> I. THE FASTING OF Christ.
> 
> 
> I. This Gospel is read today at the beginning of Lent in order to picture before Christians the example of Christ, that they may rightly observe Lent, which has become mere mockery: first, because no one can follow this example and fast forty days and nights as Christ did without eating any food. Christ rather followed the example of Moses, who fasted also forty days and nights, when he received the law of God on mount Sinai. Thus Christ also wished to fast when he was about to bring to us, and give expression to, the new law. In the second place, Lent has become mere mockery because our fasting is a perversion and an institution of man. For although Christ did fast forty days, yet there is no word of his that he requires us to do the same and fast as he did. Indeed he did many other things, which he wishes us not to do; but whatever he calls us to do or leave undone, we should see to it that we have his Word to support our actions.
> 
> 
> 2. But the worst of all is that we have adopted and practiced fasting as a good work: not to bring our flesh into subjection; but, as a meritorious work before God, to atone for our sins and obtain grace. And it is this that has made our fasting a stench and so blasphemous and shameful, so that no drinking and eating, no gluttony and drunkenness, could have been as bad and foul. It would have been better had people been drunk
> 
> Page 135 ---------------------------


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## etexas

BobVigneault said:


> I don't think Pastor Adam was comparing Anglicans to papists in a perjorative manner. He was surprised to find the practice in a PCA church. The PCA denom does not follow the 39 articles. Hence, if you are going act like a non-PCA church then go join another denom. Strong words but I wouldn't take them personally.


I am cool now Bob. Just had a cup of tea. Soothed my nerves. Thank you again.


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## travis

ADKing said:


> Which is precisely why it is forbidden according to the PCA's own _professed _ standards.
> 
> I know we have been around and around on the issue of holy days on this list before (several times a year, right?  ) but seriously...If people want to practice Anglican or Romish practices governed by their distinctive approaches to worship (which are different than those convictions expressed in the Westminster standards) why not just be honest about it and become Anglican or papists?



I don't understand. Reciting questions from the Three Forms of Unity is also not mandated by God's word but I know of mnay reformed churches that do this.


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## blhowes

travis said:


> It was there for those who wish to partake.
> 
> It is an outward sign of inner repentance.



Not trying to fuel any debates, I'm just historically curious. Why was the option first given? Was it to 'accommodate' converted catholics who still felt a need (or desire or whatever) to receive the ashes, etc.?


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## Me Died Blue

Good thoughts as usual, Bob (Vigneault).

We've had the discussions before on whether observing holy days and seasons such as Christmas, Good Friday, Easter and Lent are biblically-permissible, and it is an issue on which there has been disagreement between many of the historic Presbyterian and Continental churches for generations. I personally am of the opinion that there is not a problem in observing them at the family and individual level, and even the church level _if_ the elements of worship are not changed.

With Ash Wednesday, however, I would suggest that there are further issues at stake than the ones normally discussed with the holy days:

1) For one thing, if the imposition of ashes is observed during a worship service, it certainly would be an added element, as it would serve to do far more than merely aid the natural practice of one or more of the other elements. As such, its inclusion during a worship service is worlds apart from simply changing the topic of the sermon or the theme of the hymns to reflect a Christmas or Easter-related theme.

2) We all know the instructions in Matthew 6:5-6: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

We know that this cannot be prohibiting corporate prayer, since that is commanded elsewhere in Scripture. But mandated prayer together in the corporate worship assembly or as a family is worlds apart from walking around the streets and everywhere else one goes on a day with ashes on one's forehead. That is because the *very point* of the ashes is to let people in public know that one has been and is praying. If that is not the equivalent of praying in such a way that people in the street corners will see and know, I'm not sure what is.



I follow Jesus said:


> Perhaps. But he did make a NASTY little Roman Anglican "connection" I would not let that pass. It was a low blow.



Indeed, there is no need to throw the "P-bomb" (papist) in this discussion. Even so, I think where it was coming from is the fact that, while historic Anglicans are fortunately nothing like Rome on the issues of salvation, the sacraments, the Church and the Solas, the commonality they do have that is particularly relevant to the topic at-hand is that they both deny the Regulative Principle of Worship as embraced by the Presbyterian, Continental and 1689 churches as well as the Puritans.


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## LadyFlynt

Do not observe it, will not observe it, left a PCA church we were visiting because of it.


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## Davidius

travis said:


> I don't understand. Reciting questions from the Three Forms of Unity is also not mandated by God's word but I know of mnay reformed churches that do this.



We're not talking about Dutch Reformed churches. Switching the focus to them doesn't change the nature of the issue. Perhaps they're wrong to do that as well.

If this convo is going to be fruitful it needs to be had within the parameters that Chris and Bob have so adequately established. The question is one regarding the Regulative Principle of Worship. The question is one regarding the Regulative Principle of Worship. You have repeatedly offered sarcasm and illogical, irrelevant arguments and it would be helpful if you'd honestly interact with the issues being raised.


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## MrMerlin777

These threads produce far more heat than light. Accusations of Romanism and such. I'm sorry but it bothers me. 

Thanks for letting me get that off of my chest.

Cheers to all.


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## Ivan

blhowes said:


> Is it pretty common in Presbyterian churches to celebrate Ash Wednesday by putting ashes on the forehead and giving up something for Lent? In Reformed Baptist churches?



I believe that for the vast majority of all kinds of Baptist churches the answer would be "no". However, I do know at least one Southern Baptist church that recognizes Ash Wednesday, although I don't think they put ashes on their foreheads. 

As far as the rest of our brethren here at PB that observe that day and put ashes on their foreheads.....God bless you!


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## travis

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> We're not talking about Dutch Reformed churches. Switching the focus to them doesn't change the nature of the issue. Perhaps they're wrong to do that as well.



Well then, you can take issue with us on this as well. We recite confessions from the Three Forms of Unity as well during service.


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## BobVigneault

*A Lenten Exercise*

Ok, for those who are getting confused here are the 10 steps for proper penitence.

1. Cut 3 holes in a feed bag for your head and arms to fit through.

2. Take off your clothes and put the bag on.

3. Find a pile of ashes, from charcoal grill, fire pit, fireplace, wherever. Sit in them.

4. Spread the ashes on your head and shoulders.

5. Cry long, cry bitterly and cry some more. Taste the tears rolling down your face. Cry until you are exhausted and your eyes are blood red. Wail loudly so the neighbors come to the windows.

6. Fall on your face and and push your lips into the dirt. Beat the ground with your fists until they bleed. 

7. Search the horizon for hope and finding none do steps 4 through 6 again.

8. Contemplate your utter ruin and worthlessness and futility of thought and deed. You are as good as dead and deservedly so.

9. Fear falling asleep that you might dream of torment, fear more that sleep may bring death and eternal damnation and worst torment.

10. Fall on Christ for your justification. Surrender to his merciful deliverence. Cry for mercy and rest in the truth of God's Word that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

If you are pressed for time, you may go directly to step number 10. This method may be employed during Lent, Christmas, All Hallows Eve, just about anytime really.


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## travis

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> We're not talking about Dutch Reformed churches. Switching the focus to them doesn't change the nature of the issue. Perhaps they're wrong to do that as well.
> 
> If this convo is going to be fruitful it needs to be had within the parameters that Chris and Bob have so adequately established. The question is one regarding the Regulative Principle of Worship. You have repeatedly offered sarcasm and illogical, irrelevant arguments and it would be helpful if you'd honestly interact with the issues being raised.



I whole heartedly apologize for the sarcasm. I do not intend it, but unfortunately is something that I struggle with immensly.

And, being a farily new member of the PCA (just over a year) I do not know enough about the Regulative Principle of Worship for the PCA.


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## NaphtaliPress

Give it up for Lent.


travis said:


> I whole heartedly apologize for the sarcasm. I do not intend it, but unfortunately is something that I struggle with immensly.


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## travis

NaphtaliPress said:


> Give it up for Lent.



touche'


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## etexas

Ivan said:


> I believe that for the vast majority of all kinds of Baptist churches the answer would be "no". However, I do know at least one Southern Baptist church that recognizes Ash Wednesday, although I don't think they put ashes on their foreheads.
> 
> As far as the rest of our brethren here at PB that observe that day and put ashes on their foreheads.....God bless you!


God bless you Ivan.


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## Davidius

travis said:


> Well then, you can take issue with us on this as well. We recite confessions from the Three Forms of Unity as well during service.



I'm not trying to "take issue" with anyone. From the very beginning all I did was ask where/how the celebration of Lent originated. After that, Chris and Bob, in their wisdom and maturity for which I am most thankful after seeing how this thread has gone, tried to steer the conversation toward a discussion of how all of this fits in with the Regulative Principle of Worship, something with which Presbyterians are supposed to be concerned (which is why Adam said that Presbyterians who don't want to hold the RPW should just join other denominations, a fair and logical point).

I think it would be great if you and Max would look back at what Chris said. I'd be interested in seeing your responses, but especially yours, since you are a Presbyterian and therefore a part of a denomination which confessionally holds to the RPW.


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## wsw201

Concerning the PCA, the Standards and the PCA BCO (chapter 62, which is not constitutional) allow for the Session to call for special days for thanksgiving and fasting. When the Session calls for a worship service to be held, it is *NOT OPTIONAL*. All members of the church need to attend. When a worship service is called on a day other than the Lord's Day and also becomes an annual event like Ash Wednesday, then the provision within the Standards and the BCO for a day of thanksgiving and fasting is being taken advantage of. These provisions should be used sparingly.


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## etexas

No Street corners. Ashes are JUST a symbol of repentance, and a Biblical one. My wife and I will take the ashes at 7 tonight and will come home.......and wash it off! Jesus will not love me any more or any less for doing (or not doing)same for anyone here. It is JUST a devotional act. Some times I kneel when I pray.....sometimes I pray in my car. God still hears me. Point is I belong to Christ I will not judge any of you for taking or not taking ashes. Jesus loves you.


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## fredtgreco

This strikes me as an example of a ritual that serves virtually no purpose but to conjure up thoughts of Roman Catholicism in the minds of the average man.

I would liken it to the Romanist vestments and accouterments that were rejected by the Puritans (including the Westminster Assembly) because of their virtually complete identification with Roman Catholicism.

As a former altar boy, I find the practice external, offensive and unnecessary.


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## etexas

fredtgreco said:


> This strikes me as an example of a ritual that serves virtually no purpose but to conjure up thoughts of Roman Catholicism in the minds of the average man.
> 
> I would liken it to the Romanist vestments and accouterments that were rejected by the Puritans (including the Westminster Assembly) because of their virtually complete identification with Roman Catholicism.
> 
> As a former altar boy, I find the practice external, offensive and unnecessary.


Well GOODY FOR YOU. I bet God loves you a whole lot more than he loves me! Seeing that YOU have such a sweet loving heart!


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## BobVigneault

fredtgreco said:


> As a former altar boy, I find the practice external, offensive and unnecessary.



Thanks for the correct spelling a 'altar boy' Fred. I'd correct mine buts it's already been quoted. My rendition, 'alter boy' would have a totally different meaning wouldn't it. Ouch.


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## Ivan

I follow Jesus said:


> Well GOODY FOR YOU. I bet God loves you a whole lot more than he loves me! Seeing that YOU have such a sweet loving heart!



Ashes for some, none for others. Can we leave it at that?


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## fredtgreco

I follow Jesus said:


> Well GOODY FOR YOU. I bet God loves you a whole lot more than he loves me! Seeing that YOU have such a sweet loving heart!



My friend, you will notice that I never made any assessment based on externals. That was entirely my point, which you completely missed in an effort to defend your practice with vitriol.

It is of no concern to me that you decide to soil your head with ashes, thinking it shows you have such a "sweet loving heart," since you are not bound by the regulative principle of worship, presbyterian polity or the Westminster Standards.

It is quite another thing to assume that it is normative, or Presbyterian. Would that we actually worked on repentance, faith and the gospel than externals.


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## fredtgreco

Ivan said:


> Ashes for some, none for others. Can we leave it at that?



Ivan,

We could leave it at "the regulative principle of worship and Presbyterian polity for some" and not for others.


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## LadyFlynt

I follow Jesus said:


> Well GOODY FOR YOU. I bet God loves you a whole lot more than he loves me! Seeing that YOU have such a sweet loving heart!



This was unnecessary. The gent before you was stating HIS reasons for disagreement with the practice...not attacking you personally.


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## BobVigneault

Max, I think... and I'm just spit balling here, but I think you might have lapsed back into sarcasm there.

Fred is a pastor, an elder and when he gives his opinion it is one of the most learned opinions you will find here on the board. He also does possess, I've observed, a loving heart.

Please don't react so strongly in the face of an opposing opinion.


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## Redaimie

I follow Jesus said:


> No Street corners. Ashes are JUST a symbol of repentance, and a Biblical one. My wife and I will take the ashes at 7 tonight and will come home.......and wash it off! Jesus will not love me any more or any less for doing (or not doing)same for anyone here. It is JUST a devotional act. Some times I kneel when I pray.....sometimes I pray in my car. God still hears me. Point is I belong to Christ I will not judge any of you for taking or not taking ashes. Jesus loves you.




I'm am glad to hear you wash it off. 
I wanted to ask what do you use for ashes?

I was taught when I was Roman Catholic that the ashes were "holy" & not to be touched in any way, they had to stay on the head & wear off naturally. The ashes themselves were the "blessed" burned ashes taken from the left palms (that were "blessed") the previous year on palm Sunday. The palms once "blessed" were holy & could only be disposed of by burning them. 

For some the ritual is laden with man made superstition which makes it repulsive but it is not meant to be a judgment on your practice of it.


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## etexas

Redaimie said:


> I'm am glad to hear you wash it off.
> I wanted to ask what do you use for ashes?
> 
> I was taught when I was Roman Catholic that the ashes were "holy" & not to be touched in any way, they had to stay on the head & wear off naturally. The ashes themselves were the "blessed" burned ashes taken from the left palms (that were "blessed") the previous year on palm Sunday. The palms once "blessed" were holy & could only be disposed of by burning them.
> 
> For some the ritual is laden with man made superstition which makes it repulsive but it is not meant to be a judgment on your practice of it.


Thanks for the question. No, we do not teach that there is ANY magic powers in the ashes! They are dried out palms from last year. We put them o to mark the start of Lenten season..........and we wash them off. With soap if need be!


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## Ivan

fredtgreco said:


> Ivan,
> 
> We could leave it at "the regulative principle of worship and Presbyterian polity for some" and not for others.



Okay.


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## Ivan

> Fred is a pastor, an elder and when he gives his opinion it is one of the most learned opinions you will find here on the board. * He also does possess, I've observed, a loving heart.*



I have found this to be true also.


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## Ivan

blhowes said:


> Good idea.
> 
> Not to change the subject (too much) but do any of you have sunrise services at your church on Easter Sunday? We use to have them in the church (Methodist) I grew up in. I haven't been to one in years, but they were always kind of neat.



I've had them in the past. Not a lot of support for them though, but I like them. 

One church I had was more interested in a Easter breakfast. We didn't have Sunday School that day either.


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## Blueridge Believer

I wouldn't know Lent from ghent being an ignorant backwoods baptist from the Blueridge. However, I'll bow at Romans 14 at the matter. It looks like we've had a bit of a misunderstanding here today. It grieves me to see contention amongst the brethren. Love all of you. Just my


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## etexas

This was first thread here. I regret it. I did not expect daggers and bloodshed. If you think I dramatize, try to be a bit more understanding and read my first post. I do not know what I was thinking. Maybe I don't belong here.


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## BJClark

Me Died Blue;





> 2) We all know the instructions in Matthew 6:5-6: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
> 
> But mandated prayer together in the corporate worship assembly or as a family is worlds apart from walking around the streets and everywhere else one goes on a day with ashes on one's forehead. That is because the *very point* of the ashes is to let people in public know that one has been and is praying. If that is not the equivalent of praying in such a way that people in the street corners will see and know, I'm not sure what is.



This has always been my problem with it as well..

I don't need ashes on my forehead in order to fast or pray...that is between God and I, and the rest of the world doesn't need to know...

And if *I* were to go get ashes on my forehead, *I* would need to look at my heart before God and ask..."Who am I trying to impress or make a statement to, God or the world, does God need/want me to wear ashes on my face in order to know the intent of my heart??" 

but hey, if you desire to wear ashes on your forehead, then by all means do so...just make sure it's for the right reason...and not just for show...or just to let others know "your fasting and praying, 'because' your a Christian" and it's what Christians in your area do...so therefore your going to do it too...


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## NaphtaliPress

BTW, for those new to the forum, for more than you might ever want to know about the Regulative Principle of Worship, pick up the first two issues of _The Confessional Presbyterian_ journal, most notably:
Volume 2, "The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999)" [part two is forthcoming in the 2007 volume 3]. By Dr. Frank J. Smith with Chris Coldwell.
Volume 1, "Reframing Presbyterian Worship: A Critical Survey of the Worship Views of John M. Frame and R. J. Gore" by Drs. Frank J. Smith and David C. Lachman.



On special for $28.50. Working hard on the 2007 volume now (it's an annual; more would be lethal for the editor).


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## Blueridge Believer

I follow Jesus said:


> This was first thread here. I regret it. I did not expect daggers and bloodshed. If you think I dramatize, try to be a bit more understanding and read my first post. I do not know what I was thinking. Maybe I don't belong here.



You belong brother. Just a little misunderstanding that's all. 
In time you'll get to know us all and put up with us as well.


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## etexas

BJClark said:


> Me Died Blue;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has always been my problem with it as well..
> 
> I don't need ashes on my forehead in order to fast or pray...that is between God and I, and the rest of the world doesn't need to know...
> 
> And if *I* were to go get ashes on my forehead, *I* would need to look at my heart before God and ask..."Who am I trying to impress or make a statement to, God or the world, does God need/want me to wear ashes on my face in order to know the intent of my heart??"
> 
> but hey, if you desire to wear ashes on your forehead, then by all means do so...just make sure it's for the right reason...and not just for show...or just to let others know "your fasting and praying, 'because' your a Christian" and it's what Christians in your area do...so therefore your going to do it too...


What??????? I don't get it! FORGET THIS!


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## BobVigneault

Max I remember when I finally got up the nerve to start a thread. I got trounced pretty much the way you have. You are doing fine brother and you have much to offer.

The Puritan Board, like any forum, has a rhythm to it and you will get a feel for it eventually. We have several expressions of protestant faith represented here and because we are puritans our level of zeal and precision runs higher than most.

Scholarship and piety have battled for supremacy since the church began. One must never win over the other. We recognize the tension between head and heart and try to use it to enhance a purity of worship. Sometimes we lead with our scholarship and wound someones piety, other times we lead with our hearts and offend someones 'orthodoxy'. In the end we hope that we will gain understanding and give edification.

Bless you brother for starting a thread, that's what drives our interaction. We all need to remind ourselves of the large group here and the even larger audience that watches.


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## Ivan

Blueridge reformer said:


> You belong brother. Just a little misunderstanding that's all.
> In time you'll get to know us all and put up with us as well.



 We Baptists have taken our lumps. I'm not as lumpy as I use to be.  Of course, we Baptists can get a little testy too.


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## Ivan

BobVigneault said:


> Max I remember when I finally got up the nerve to start a thread. I got trounced pretty much the way you have. You are doing fine brother and you have much to offer.



Amen! Hang in there, Max.


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## BJClark

I follow Jesus said:


> What??????? I don't get it! FORGET THIS!



You don't get what?


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## raekwon

Indirectly related, how should Reformed and Presbyterian believers and congregations treat the church calendar/liturgical calendar, if at all? Should seasons like Lent and Advent be celebrated? If so, corporately or only individually? If not, why not? How about particular holidays like Christmas and Easter?


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## Richard King

I'm in a PCA church with a pastor from New Orleans. He was raised in all that tradition and music and carnival atmosphere. 
He didn't for a minute consider bringing up Fat Tuesday or Ash Wednesday or Lent etc.
It just isn't done here.

I don't know a thing about it 
(except I have a funny memory of finding a roman catholic friend of mine hiding in his closet to take a dip of Copenhagen with an ash mark on his head. He had given up dipping for Lent...the spirit was willing but apparently the flesh was weak.)

I did find out from a lady who knows far more than I that the origin can be found way back. 
She says 
"it went back to Tammuz.......Nimrod......that's the whole Lent thing......the weeping for Tammuz. " 
So I guess I need to go study but I don't even do Ishtar/Easter so I may just get back to work.


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## etexas

BJClark said:


> You don't get what?


I do not GET the fact you using a quote that misrepresents the intent of imposition in the Anglican Communion. I am not RC I am not taking some Mark O' the Beast here. Look I love my Presbyterian friend and respect them (I work out with an OPC guy 3 times a week). My point is I am not a Presbyterian........I am an orthodox conservative Anglican. Some of you have been real decent and kind to me in this some of you have CUT ME TO RIBBONS! Real nice! At least I will just have a bit of ash on my head. Some of you have bloodied your hands with me from the get go. You know you have! I would rather have the ashes than bleeding out a fellow saint.


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## Blueridge Believer

raekwon said:


> Indirectly related, how should Reformed and Presbyterian believers and congregations treat the church calendar/liturgical calendar, if at all? Should seasons like Lent and Advent be celebrated? If so, corporately or only individually? If not, why not? How about particular holidays like Christmas and Easter?



Personally, I do do not observe any holyday, including Christmas and easter.
I do observe the Lord's day but I am not a Sabbatarian. I do strive to respect those that disagree with me and do not make it a habit to rail on them. If I were at your house on the Lord's day I would follow the manners and customs of your home and your viewpoint on the matter. During Christmas, I will try and avoid using the term but will not start and argument over it. Same with Easter. Some things are more important to me than trying to argue a particular theological point on a non essential doctrine and offending a fellow believer and causing contention and strife.
I enjoy fellowship with the brethren. I have been accused by some in the circles I travel of "going along" to "get along".


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## Ivan

*Wikipedia on Ash Wednesday*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday


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## MrMerlin777

Blueridge reformer said:


> I enjoy fellowship with the brethren. I have been accused by some in the circles I travel of "going along" to "get along".



In regard to many things dear brother this is not a bad thing.


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## LadyFlynt

raekwon said:


> Indirectly related, how should Reformed and Presbyterian believers and congregations treat the church calendar/liturgical calendar, if at all? Should seasons like Lent and Advent be celebrated? If so, corporately or only individually? If not, why not? How about particular holidays like Christmas and Easter?


None with the exception of the Lord's Day.


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## Me Died Blue

Max,

One thing I keep hearing in several of your posts is that you feel people here are accusing you of being less acceptable to God or counted any less in Christ because of your disagreement on this practice. Please understand that is NOT the issue in any way whatsoever. In fact, if anyone here (and more importantly, any officers in a confessional Reformed church) did claim that it changed someone's status in Christ before God, if they were asked to clarify and did not recant, they would be banned (or in the case of a confessional church, defrocked).

So rest assured, absolutely no one believes you to be any less acceptable before or any less fully in Christ because of your difference in practice here. Rather, it is all about our natural desire to please God out of gratitude for what has been given us. And with respect to that desire, and in light of the Law's function in pointing believers to what pleases God, our opposition to the practice of Ash Wednesday comes from our belief that God only desires to be worshiped in those ways He commands or demonstrates in Scripture.



I follow Jesus said:


> No Street corners. Ashes are JUST a symbol of repentance, and a Biblical one. My wife and I will take the ashes at 7 tonight and will come home.......and wash it off! Jesus will not love me any more or any less for doing (or not doing)same for anyone here. It is JUST a devotional act. Some times I kneel when I pray.....sometimes I pray in my car. God still hears me. Point is I belong to Christ I will not judge any of you for taking or not taking ashes. Jesus loves you.



I commend the fact that you at least do not use it as a public symbol. I have been to non-ecclesiastical Ash Wednesday services where the people _were_ encouraged to leave it on throughout the day, wherever they went. That is one of the problems many of us here have with the normative Ash Wednesday practice as it is so often done, and with which all Christians should have a problem, whether they hold to the Regulative Principle of Worship or not.

Furthermore, in historic Reformed churches as well as the vast majority of current Reformed churches, the Regulative Principle is key in worship. As such, the simple fact that the imposition of ashes is not commanded (directly or by example) for worship in Scripture is the main reason so many people here have a problem with it being done, particularly in a worship service.


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## BobVigneault

I'm envious. Max started a thread, his FIRST thread mind you, and he got 81 replies already. I've only dreamed of getting that many replies. I'll get some epiphany and sit down and translate it into text and after 3 days of eager watching I have 2 replies. (Thank you Josh H and Andrew M, I can always count on you.) Way 2 Go, Max.


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## raekwon

LadyFlynt said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indirectly related, how should Reformed and Presbyterian believers and congregations treat the church calendar/liturgical calendar, if at all? Should seasons like Lent and Advent be celebrated? If so, corporately or only individually? If not, why not? How about particular holidays like Christmas and Easter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None with the exception of the Lord's Day.
Click to expand...




raekwon said:


> If not, why not?


.


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## Ivan

BobVigneault said:


> I'm envious. Max started a thread, his FIRST thread mind you, and he got 81 replies already. I've only dreamed of getting that many replies. I'll get some epiphany and sit down and translate it into text and after 3 days of eager watching I have 2 replies. (Thank you Josh H and Andrew M, I can always count on you.) Way 2 Go, Max.



True! I don't think I've ever generated 81 replies for one of my threads!


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## LadyFlynt

My apologies, Rae...I did not see the second part. The reason is that there are no other days commanded for us to hold. Secondly, most holidays/holy days are "replacements", or more correctly, integrations of pagan holy days and practices.


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## etexas

BobVigneault said:


> I'm envious. Max started a thread, his FIRST thread mind you, and he got 81 replies already. I've only dreamed of getting that many replies. I'll get some epiphany and sit down and translate it into text and after 3 days of eager watching I have 2 replies. (Thank you Josh H and Andrew M, I can always count on you.) Way 2 Go, Max.


Chuckle!


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## Me Died Blue

raekwon said:


> Indirectly related, how should Reformed and Presbyterian believers and congregations treat the church calendar/liturgical calendar, if at all? Should seasons like Lent and Advent be celebrated? If so, corporately or only individually? If not, why not? How about particular holidays like Christmas and Easter?



I don't have sources right now, but the issue has historically been treated differently by the Presbyterian churches and the Continental Reformed churches. Most of the opposition to the notion of celebrating any of the holy days of the church calendar whatsoever has come from the Scottish Presbyterian churches, while most of the Continental Reformed churches have observed a simplified church calendar, continuing to celebrate Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Ascension and Pentecost.

Today, there is essentially a mixed bag in both traditions, with members as well as officers from each holding differing views on the matter.


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## etexas

LadyFlynt said:


> My apologies, Rae...I did not see the second part. The reason is that there are no other days commanded for us to hold. Secondly, most holidays/holy days are "replacements", or more correctly, integrations of pagan holy days and practices.


So, with all due respect. I will in your opinion having a Pagan night! I'm sorry what......I worship Christ, not Baal.


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## Ivan

joshua said:


> My threads rarely elicit 81 _views_ much less actual replies.


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## Augusta

BobVigneault said:


> I'm envious. Max started a thread, his FIRST thread mind you, and he got 81 replies already. I've only dreamed of getting that many replies. I'll get some epiphany and sit down and translate it into text and after 3 days of eager watching I have 2 replies. (Thank you Josh H and Andrew M, I can always count on you.) Way 2 Go, Max.



 He hit the jackpot. I was ignorant of Reformed Orthodoxy and knew it, so when I saw a couple of these threads where some poor person unknowingly posts about something that is anathema and the ensuing firebombing that resulted, from then on I posted with fear and trembling.


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## LadyFlynt

I follow Jesus said:


> So, with all due respect. I will in your opinion having a Pagan night! I'm sorry what......I worship Christ, not Baal.


Yes, to me it is the same as with images. Israel, with all good intent of worship the true and living God, created an image of a calf to represent Him. God condemned this. Regardless of the good intent, is it right to participate in the practices of Rome?


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## jaybird0827

LadyFlynt said:


> Yes, to me it is the same as with images. Israel, with all good intent of worship the true and living God, created an image of a calf to represent Him. God condemned this. Regardless of the good intent, is it right to participate in the practices of Rome?


 
 


Not only that, Aaron declared a feast [KJV]Exodus 32:5-6[/KJV]. It was a day that God had not appointed. God's displeasure was clearly shown - we know all too well what ensued.


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## etexas

LadyFlynt said:


> Yes, to me it is the same as with images. Israel, with all good intent of worship the true and living God, created an image of a calf to represent Him. God condemned this. Regardless of the good intent, is it right to participate in the practices of Rome?


Well some Holy-Days are a misnomer, Halloween. I guess calling a home school an academy is a misnomer as well. But I have not busted you on that have I..............oooops just did. Sorry wrong answer, but please don't stop being a Lady on my account! By the bye shouldn't you be teaching or something?


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## Ivan

I follow Jesus said:


> Well some Holy-Days are a misnomer, Halloween. I guess calling a home school an academy is a misnomer as well. But I have not busted you on that have I..............oooops just did. Sorry wrong answer, but please don't stop being a Lady on my account! By the bye shouldn't you be teaching or something?



Not good, Max, not good.


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## etexas

Ivan said:


> Not good, Max, not good.


SHE SAID I WORSHIPPED BAAL!!!


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## AV1611

LadyFlynt said:


> Yes, to me it is the same as with images. Israel, with all good intent of worship the true and living God, created an image of a calf to represent Him. God condemned this. Regardless of the good intent, is it right to participate in the practices of Rome?



Whether they are practices of Papists is, in my opinion, neither here nor there. What concerns me is whether Scripture commands it. Is it worship? Why do it? As I am unable to find it in the BCP of 1662 (please correct me if I am wrong) I would also say that it may be best if Anglicans give it a miss.


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## etexas

People.......look read post 94 she accused me of Baal worship. Would you be happy?


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## Ivan

I follow Jesus said:


> SHE SAID I WORSHIPPED BAAL!!!



Well, I'll add *one* more post here and let Colleen reply, but Max you mentioned Baal, not Colleen.


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## Herald

blhowes said:


> Is it pretty common in Presbyterian churches to celebrate Ash Wednesday by putting ashes on the forehead and giving up something for Lent? In Reformed Baptist churches?



I don't know any Baptist church that observes ash Wednesday (although I am sure there are some). Having been rescued out of the Roman system, I have a distaste for anything that even smells like Rome. I don't see the biblical mandate for it, so it is not something I would practice. 

As far as giving up something for lent...I'm not favorable towards the practice. If I am going to give something up for lent, I might as well give it up all together. Why limit self-sacrifice to just lent?

Anway.....just my


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## etexas

Post #94!!!!!!!!


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## travis

Well, this thread got out of hand


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## Blueridge Believer

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I don't know any Baptist church that observes ash Wednesday (although I am sure there are some). Having been rescued out of the Roman system, I have a distaste for anything that even smells like Rome. I don't see the biblical mandate for it, so it is not something I would practice.
> 
> As far as giving up something for lent...I'm not favorable towards the practice. If I am going to give something up for lent, I might as well give it up all together. Why limit self-sacrifice to just lent?
> 
> Anway.....just my



The reasons baptists don't observe it Bill is because we're so perfect.


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## Semper Fidelis

I'm leaving this thread locked because it got out of hand but I took it out of a protected "eyes-only" forum because there is some instructive material here on the Regulative Principle of Worship.

First, let me make a note on Colleen's post. She accused nobody of Baal worship. The golden calf was not Baal worship and one only need to read both instances where Levi introduces the golden calf and where Jeroboam reintroduces the idol. Even the Rabbis, in commentary, understood that this was worship of Jehovah _but_ it was the addition of an element he did not command (a symbol).

Second, let's not pretend that proper worship is some sort of anciliary issue that is inconsequential. The strictest condemnation is leveled agains Israel primarily for her false worship. The Reformed have always had a much more strict principle of worhsip. Anglicanism has a different principle of worship than the Reformed do. This is a Reformed board. If you don't want to hear what the Reformed believe the Scriptures teach on a subject then don't post an issue regarding worship.

Third, let me state this as delicately as a man who has firm conviction can: toughen up people. We are not to be the type that shrink back from such things. This is not a Victorian tea party. In issues of consequence, we should be man enough to withstand withering criticism. We should also see criticism, if it's Scriptural, as a way to examine ourselves.

Fourth, I will not accept the idea that criticism and rebuke and debate is discord. Some people have an idea that as soon as somebody says something that is misunderstood and a temper flares up that there is discord. The idea of "iron sharpening iron" is one of friction and some strife. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend" points to the fact that sometimes discussions may wound. The wise look at wounds in a way to improve. We certainly need to watch our speech and guard our tongues from being mean or petty but people who are easily offended need to examine their own hearts for, even as we are commanded not to _unnecessarily_ give offense we are also called not to be those who are easily offended.

Grace and Peace,

Rich


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