# Would like some assistance here please...



## BJClark (Jan 31, 2007)

Okay, in looking at the symptoms of these two 'mental illnesses' who in the Bible struggled with these things? What sins can we attribute them to?




> Signs and symptoms of the depressive phase of bipolar disorder include (but in no way are limited to): persistent feelings of sadness, anxiety, guilt, anger, isolation and/or hopelessness, disturbances in sleep and appetite, fatigue and loss of interest in daily activities, problems concentrating, loneliness, self-loathing, apathy or indifference, depersonalization, loss of interest or a sudden increased interest in sexual activity, shyness or social anxiety, irritability, chronic pain (with or without a known cause), lack of motivation, and morbid/suicidal ideation.





> In the context of bipolar disorder, a mixed state is a condition during which symptoms of mania and clinical depression occur simultaneously (for example, agitation, anxiety, aggressiveness or belligerence, confusion, fatigue, impulsiveness, insomnia, irritability, morbid and/or suicidal ideation, panic, paranoia, persecutory delusions, pressured speech, racing thoughts, restlessness, and rage).[2]
> 
> Mixed episodes can be the most volatile of the bipolar states, as moods can easily and quickly be triggered or shifted. Suicide attempts, substance abuse, and self-mutilation may occur during this state.





> Oppositional Defiance Disorder is a supposed and largely disputed 'mental illness' characterized by an ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile, and defiant behavior toward authority figures that goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior.
> 
> at least FOUR of the following eight problems have been happening most every day, or almost all the time:
> 
> ...


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## turmeric (Feb 1, 2007)

Elijah comes to mind for the first one, the second one - to the extent we aren't all guilty of it - you usually got stoned to death for eventually. Maybe Samson was a bit like this, or Nabal, Abigail's first husband. I think it was sin in those cases, however, not illness.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2007)

The second one reminds of rebellious youth that scripture talks about...Peter or Judas? The first, could be a bunch of ppl. I'm sure David would be one. Maybe Noah, Job (due to his disease as well), several of the prophets.


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## ChristopherPaul (Feb 1, 2007)

I was told by a pastor once (arminian Dispensational) that John Bunyan suffered from severe depression. I am not sure if that is true or not, but it makes me wonder if any of his works would answer this question or any of the works that others wrote of him and his life would address this question.


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2007)

LadyFlynt;



> The second one reminds of rebellious youth that scripture talks about...Peter or Judas? The first, could be a bunch of ppl. I'm sure David would be one. Maybe Noah, Job (due to his disease as well), several of the prophets.



King David certainly struggled with depression, we can see that in the Psalms, and I have often wondered if he didn't struggle with paranoia as well, as he was always writing about 'everyone' trying to kill him, even though I'm sure NOT EVERYONE was always trying to kill him, certainly some were, but not everyone was out to get him

I was also reminded of the Proverbs, and the descriptions there...of laziness, and rebellion, and soforth...

Buy even more so, when I look at Galatians, chapter 5, in the descriptions of the works of the flesh which are manifest:


Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness (lust), strife, wrath ( passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again), emulations (an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy), seditions (incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority) Variance (contention, strife, wrangling) Heresies (dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims)...

So when I look at these I see this as a sin issue, and not a mental illness...unless being a sinner is a mental illness, and can be controlled by medications...where as in the mental health field, they say people can't be cured...from these things...hmmmm....I have to wonder...


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## bwsmith (Feb 1, 2007)

All the men and women, save Christ, whose bios are developed struggled to one degree or another -- Miriam had some issues. 

Sin caused mental/emotional illness, and all forms of illness and death. Often our sinful souls “chose” patterns of behavior that lead to mental/emotional illnesses as well as addictions. Some souls suffer dreadfully because of the Fall – through “no fault” of their own, such as mental retardation. 
The Holy Spirit can and will help those who cry out.The Bible is a wonderful, wonderful help as well. I'm sure you know this! 

A useful resource in overcoming the effects of the Fall has been Blame it on the Brain.


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## Chris (Feb 1, 2007)

SAUL!

As soon as I started reading the symptoms, Saul leapt to mind.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2007)

Oh, duh...yeah, Saul! And Herod!


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2007)

Chris;



> SAUL! As soon as I started reading the symptoms, Saul leapt to mind.



Okay, I need some scripture verses, I'm wanting to make a list of the various people and verses in which to find them, so that my husband and I can sit down and go over them together with his daughter and his ex-wife as his ex is insistant their daughter is bi-polar...where as we see it as a sin issue.


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## AV1611 (Feb 1, 2007)

ChristopherPaul said:


> I was told by a pastor once (arminian Dispensational) that John Bunyan suffered from severe depression. I am not sure if that is true or not, but it makes me wonder if any of his works would answer this question or any of the works that others wrote of him and his life would address this question.



I am sure Cowper (Newton's mate) was a depressive and suffered from serious periods of melancholia which led him to question his salvation believeing God has chosen him to be damned.


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## Chris (Feb 1, 2007)

Saul's misdeeds can be found in 1st Samuel. Gimme a few minutes and I'll try to post a summary with references. This might be a good time to find one of those weak bible 'Translations' that read like cliff's notes, and read 1 Samuel, starting in chapter 8.


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## Chris (Feb 1, 2007)

Picture this: being incessantly whiny, the Israelite children decided they needed a king, because all their neighboring countries had kings, and they wanted to be 'like the cool kids'. 

Well, sometimes God punishes peopole by giving them what they want, and so He did when He gave them Saul as king. 

(above from 1 Samuel 8...you need to read the whole chapter) 

So there's this guy named Kish. His son Saul is a good-looking fellow; tall and handsome; the Bill Clinton of his day. Basically a farmer's kid, and one day he heads off to go look for some lost donkeys. He carries a servant; they look around and Saul decides to forget the donkeys and go home before dad gets worried about him. The servant says 'hey, let's go ask the prophet if we should go home'.

They stroll into town, and Samuel has been told to expect them. Saul walks up to Samuel and says 'hey, have you seen the prophet?'. Samuel says ' You're lookin' at 'em, bud! Don't worry about those donkeys - they showed up 3 days ago.'. Saul gets worried; Samuel is wanting to meet with him. Saul says 'I'm just a benjamite, a nobody - what do you want with me?'.

(above from chapter 9)

In chapter 10, Saul is presented to the people. Some are thrilled, some are not. 

In 11 and 12, things are going ok; Samuel chastises Israel for wanting a king, but nothing just horrible has happened yet. 


In chapter 15, Saul has his first major 'bright idea'. God sent him to slaughter the Amalekites, and Saul, being an early forerunner of the modern-day pragmatist, decided it would be practical to not slaughter them all. King Agag and some other folks along with some livestock were left alive. God was angry with Saul for disobeying a direct order. Samuel stepped in and finsihed the job, salying King Agag. 

Immediately thereafter, God promises Samuel that a new king, David, is in the near future. Then the Spirit leaves Saul. 

(Read 1 Samuel 16:15....that's when Saul went crazy...)

In chapter 17, Davis slew Goliath. This made Saul deeply, deeply envious. 

Saul first loved David; David followed Saul, as loyal as humanly possible. David fought valiantly for Saul, and when the returned from Battle, Saul's envy began. In chapter 18:6-9, we find that the ladies loved David, and sang of how he had killed more than Saul, and Saul got jealous and paranoid of David from then forward. 


Then in 18:11, Saul's jealousy overtook him, and he tried to kill David. 
18:14 Saul acts like an ancient Happy Gilmore and forgives David and gives him a commission. 
18:15, Saul gets scared of Daviod again
18:17-27, Saul tried to use his own daughter as bait to get David to go on a suicide mission. David returns triumphant. 

18:29 David now is married to Michal, who loved him (the story of Micahl and Saul is fascinating in itself...) and Saul hates him even worse. 


19:1...Saul orders David killed
19:6...Saul changes his mind; orders David to be unharmed. 

19:8...David goes out, fighting for Saul, and whoops some serious philistine butt. 

19:10...Saul tries to kill David. 
19:11...Saul tries again! 
19:17....Michal has helped David escape, and Saul is angry with her, calling David 'his enemy' Saul basically takes Michal back from her (hiding out) husband. 

20:30...Saul chastises his own son, Jonathan, for being friends with David. 
20:33....Jonathan asks what David did wrong, and Saul tries to kill him - his own son - because he didn't have a good answer. 


Chapter 22....Saul goes on a killing spree, killing priests who have helped David. Remember that David is still 100% loyal to Saul; he just is better liked by the ladies, and that's Saul's only basis to dislike him. 


Chapter 23...David is staying busy, alternating between fighting FOR Saul, leaving a path of dead philistines wherever he went, and hiding FROM Saul. 

24:3-7...Davis is hiding in a cave, and Saul goes in to answer nature's call. While Saul is squatted down right in front of David, giving him an easy chance to kill him, David just can't do it; he is loyal to his king. So he slices off a piece of Saul's robe, and Saul departs none the wiser. Davis was still loyal; he felt guilty for even cutting Saul's robe. 

24:8-15....David comes out and shouts at Saul, to get his attention. He identifies himself, bows to his king, and begs him not to pursue him, swears his alleigence to Saul at all costs, holds up the robe as proof that he could have killed him, had he any ill will at all, humbles himself before Saul as if he was a dead dog or even a flea, not worhty of such pursuit, and just generally pleads with Saul not to kill him. 

24:16-22....Saul changes his mind, makes peace with David, and turns to head home. 

26:1-3....Saul hears gossip from his the Ziphites, and heads off to kill David.....again. 

26:4-16....Saul is camped out, pursuing his most faithful servant. God sends a deep sleep amongst his camp, and David and Abishai sneak into the camp and steal Saul's spear and water bottle while everyone slept. They retreat to a hillside and shout to the camp to wake everyone up. They identify themselves, display the spear and water, proving that they once again could have killed Saul (had they any ill will whatsoever).

26:17-25...David suggests to Saul that his anger was from men (the rumor-spreading Ziphites) and begs him to stop chasing him. Saul repents in tears, knowing David loves him. 

28....Saul has did one smart thing amongst his otherwise pitiful career as King. He cleansed the Kingdom of witches and necromancers. But he's getting ready for war, and can't get peace form God about his course of action. So, being a hypocrite, Saul disguises himself and goes to seek counsel from a necromancer. Saul leaves the meeting knowing that this foolish hypocrisy has cost him his life. 

30...David goes out and fights the war, leaving a trail of dead Philistines wherever he went. 

31....The Philistines wound Saul, and he kills himself to keep them from doing it. 

Anyway, the whole theme is this: 

Saul is jealous and insecure, so he tries to kill David, repents, tries to kill David, repents, tries to Kill David, repents....


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## turmeric (Feb 1, 2007)

Why can't Christians be bi-polar? I've seen the real thing, and it's illness, not sin. Can't speak to the ODD problem, I've never seen it.


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## SRoper (Feb 1, 2007)

I was wondering the same thing, Meg. I also have a friend who is diagnosed bi-polar.

I'm curious, is a quadriplegic really just lazy?


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2007)

I don't think this is the thread to debate the legitimacy of the diagnosis. The issue is specifically BJ's stepdaughter and I'm pretty sure her and her husband have a good grasp of the young lady's issues. She's simply asking for scripture help.


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## staythecourse (Feb 1, 2007)

*I am bi-polar*

My sin is evident when it's in effect: Irrational anger, bad mood, guilt, selfishnes, headstrong irrational choices. (I almost sold my car and bought a motorcyle in dead winter - this year.) Since I believe in a loving God towards me and that I am saved by my faith in Christ, he may be laying his hand on me till I confess.

I tell my psychiatrist that I believe its a chemical issue based on poor sinfulful choices of the past. She gives me that "poor guy" look, but hey the Scripture is always right, who am I to argue with it?

There is no cure for bi-polarism yet pharmacists and doctors have to admit that I am on extremely low doses of medication.

I gotta say that the bottom line for me is delusions of granduer with a knowledge under it all that I am nothing with the consolation God loves me in Christ. Pity those who never reach that last important step.


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2007)

LadyFlynt;



> I don't think this is the thread to debate the legitimacy of the diagnosis. The issue is specifically BJ's stepdaughter and I'm pretty sure her and her husband have a good grasp of the young lady's issues. She's simply asking for scripture help.



Correct, and knowing my step-daughter doesn't have faith in Christ, I see it as a sin issue, and I personally believe that issue needs to be addressed before they medicate her for life and potentially ruin her life from even getting certain jobs. 


but more importantly is the fact when she was living with us last summer, she wasn't on medication, and yet, she was able to control herself in all the areas listed as 'bi-polar' symptoms...we have rules and consequences for certain behaviors...and we don't have a problem with her...her mother has rules but no consequences, and yet she has ALL the symptoms when she's with her mother...I think the real issue is not that she is bi-polar, but that she needs consistant consequences for her behavior.


She believes Christ is real, but then even Satan believes that, and as she needs to be confronted from God's word concerning her sin, as opposed to being fed a bunch of garbage and continually being encouraged to excuse her sin, as a mental illness. 


SRoper; 



> I'm curious, is a quadriplegic really just lazy?



Are the Symptoms even remotely the same??? No, they are not. So please don't even try to compare the two.


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2007)

staythecourse;



> My sin is evident when it's in effect: Irrational anger, bad mood, guilt, selfishnes, headstrong irrational choices. (I almost sold my car and bought a motorcyle in dead winter - this year.) Since I believe in a loving God towards me and that I am saved by my faith in Christ, he may be laying his hand on me till I confess.



So looking at the behaviors you listed, doesn't being diagnosed as bi-polar really just give you an excuse to act selfish? Or irrational? Or head strong? aggressive? belligerent towards others? or to act out on a sudden increase towards sexual interest? I mean, after all it IS a mental illness to which there is NO cure, and if there really is NO Cure, then we should all just act like totally depraved people all the time, because everyone I know, struggles with the same issues at some point and time in their life.

Do you see growth of The Fruit of the Spirit in your life? Such as Self-control? Meekness? long suffering? gentleness? peace? 

How does one learn self-control? By learning to control one's self...when tempted to act out selfishly, or aggressively, or irrationaly, or head stong, or belligerent, ect..ect..

How does one learn long suffering? by going through irrating situations, that tempt one to act selfishly, or aggressively, or irrationally, or head strong, or belligerent, ect...ect...



> There is no cure for bi-polarism yet pharmacists and doctors have to admit that I am on extremely low doses of medication.



Just as there are no adequate tests to make such a diagnoses, there is just speculation and a name given.


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## BJClark (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is a questionairre for Bi-polar...how many of the symptoms do most of us have?

http://www.bipolar.com/questionnaire.html


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## govols (Feb 2, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Here is a questionairre for Bi-polar...how many of the symptoms do most of us have?
> 
> http://www.bipolar.com/questionnaire.html



So what are you if you're 1/3 bipolar?


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## BJClark (Feb 2, 2007)

govols;



> So what are you if you're 1/3 bipolar?



Take your pick, which one do you fit into?? 

Types of Bipolar Disorder

* Bipolar I Disorder - Bipolar I disorder involves one or more manic or mixed episodes, and often one or more major depressive episodes. A depressive episode may last for several weeks or months. Between episodes of bipolar I disorder, there may be periods of normal functioning. Symptoms may also be related to seasonal changes.

* Bipolar II Disorder - Bipolar II disorder involves one or more major depressive episodes along with at least one hypomanic episode. Hypomanic episodes have symptoms similar to manic episodes but are less severe. Between episodes of bipolar II disorder, there may be periods of normal functioning. Symptoms may also be related to seasonal changes.

* Cyclothymic Disorder - Cyclothymic disorder is a long-term fluctuating mood disturbance with periods of hypomania and periods of depression. It is a milder form of bipolar disorder. That's because the periods of both depression and hypomania are shorter, less severe, and do not occur with regularity.

* Bipolar Disorder Not Otherwise Specified - This type of bipolar disorder is when the person does not fit into the types of bipolar disorder mentioned above. The experiences of bipolar disorder vary from person to person. Just like the other types of bipolar disorder, bipolar disorder not otherwise specified is treatable.


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## staythecourse (Feb 2, 2007)

*No excuses*

I don't use my diagnosis as an excuse. I sin. I need to head to work but by God's grace, the fruits of the spirit are manifesting themselves over time. The sanctification process is slow but I can see God's grace at work in me. If the young lady of whom you speak calls herself a victim, she has a long row to hoe. I refused from the get-go to allow myself to be a jerk saying its a medical condition. However, I will say, the hole I was in in my suicidal moments made medication a God-send. I have no easy answer. Mental illness and Chritianity is a bugbear as probably several on ths board might have some experience.


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## BJClark (Feb 2, 2007)

staythecourse;



> I don't use my diagnosis as an excuse. I sin. I need to head to work but by God's grace, the fruits of the spirit are manifesting themselves over time. The sanctification process is slow but I can see God's grace at work in me. If the young lady of whom you speak calls herself a victim, she has a long row to hoe. I refused from the get-go to allow myself to be a jerk saying its a medical condition. However, I will say, the hole I was in in my suicidal moments made medication a God-send. I have no easy answer. Mental illness and Chritianity is a bugbear as probably several on ths board might have some experience.



Quite frankly, I have no issue with the depression side of the diagnoses, it's all the other things they have tied into it calling them a disease that I struggle with..

Like being irritable and yelling at others...many people do that on a daily basis...being more excited on one day while not on another...being more confident in yourself one day...and not so much so on another...I don't see those as a disease...

And can I ask, what tests did they do before they diagnosed you as bi-polar?

Did they do blood work? MRI's anything?

When were you diagnosed? As a child or as an adult? If as a child, how did you parents handle your angry outbursts and other behaviorial issues this disease caused?


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 3, 2007)

turmeric said:


> Why can't Christians be bi-polar? I've seen the real thing, and it's illness, not sin. Can't speak to the ODD problem, I've never seen it.



My father is diagnosed bi-polar and my half-sister(fathers side) is as well Ive been dealing with depression since High School. Im not "bi-polar" but it is a mental illness for sure. Which comes from the effects of sin. Some use it as an exscuse. I dont. Its a very hard battle to describe to a person who has not experienced it(bi-polar/severe depression). For me to me day in day out depressed is painful. Anyway Im not wanting to argue this with anyone. Just thought I would add my own experience with it.

In Christ,
Blade


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## BJClark (Feb 3, 2007)

Bladestunner



> My father is diagnosed bi-polar and my half-sister(fathers side) is as well Ive been dealing with depression since High School. Im not "bi-polar" but it is a mental illness for sure. Which comes from the effects of sin. Some use it as an exscuse. I dont. Its a very hard battle to describe to a person who has not experienced it(bi-polar/severe depression). For me to me day in day out depressed is painful. Anyway Im not wanting to argue this with anyone. Just thought I would add my own experience with it.



What tests did they have done to determine they were bi-polar?

What most triggers your depression?


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## turmeric (Feb 3, 2007)

My friend who was bi-polar had genuine psychotic manic episodes, she thought the Archangel Michael was in love with her, he talked to her all the time, she literally got to where no one could understand her when she spoke, her sentences didn't make sense. Whatever it was, lithium seemed to help, though it didn't cure her. I doubt very seriously if reading Scripture to her and telling her to straighten up would have helped either.

I work for the State and see many people diagnosed who probably just need some discipline, but there are real cases of crazy out there. Hope your step-daughter doesn't have the real thing, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


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## Pergamum (Feb 3, 2007)

I worked on a psych ward for a short time.


It seems that since God has made us body and soul then these things act in ways that influence one another.

When I am tired, for instance, zeal for the Lord lessens.



We need not be bipolar in our views of mental illness (pardon the pun). Many say that it is all weakness and sin and others see that it is all genes and disease and amoral.



Instead, it appears that while we are accountable for our actions, some situations may ameliorate the accountability that we possess. Few people would asert, for instance that the severely mentally handicapped are totally responsible beings. Many assert that God's grace in election probably covers those who cannot think rationally.


I would assert that a castrated man sins more if he lusts than a whole man, a man with no tendency towards depression sins more when he wallows in sadnes than a person more prone to this, and a man addicted to liquor sins less than if someone gets drunk intentionally with no previous weakness, addiction or disposition.

Too, we being biological beings as well as a living soul could very well suffer from deficincies in certain essential ingredients. Certainly if a diabetic can receive insulin to make up for something lacking, then one truly biological depressed can seek medication to make up for a physcial substance that is lacking. While this is controversial and often unneeded, psychiatric drugs have been a real blessing for some. Others, it can be a crutch.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 3, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Bladestunner
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For now Im going to leave what I wrote.


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## Theoretical (Feb 3, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> I worked on a psych ward for a short time.
> 
> 
> It seems that since God has made us body and soul then these things act in ways that influence one another.
> ...


Trevor, I think that is a great post about how both actual physical/mental conditions and actual sin interact to create these sorts of things. I definitely commend your analysis, and it matches up very well what observation, both from within and without the part of the Body of Christ around me. 

That was edifying, in more ways than one, so thanks.


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## beej6 (Feb 3, 2007)

I've sometimes wondered if I'm the only Reformed psychiatrist who's still practicing. 

I've taken the middle ground, a la Edward Welch. For the medical community he'd be a radical, for a Christian he's right on I think. There are clearly biological components to (some) illnesses, but biology is not destiny, and doesn't remove responsibility for one's behavior, save perhaps those extreme cases of "insanity" (not a medical term, btw, but a legal one).


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## turmeric (Feb 4, 2007)

My equation for mental illness:

Depravity + Adversity = Mental Illness.

I ask myself. if this had happened to Jesus or had been a part of His upbringing would He have reacted this way?


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 4, 2007)

Meg,
What about mentally retared children if thats considered a mental illness then how can fit your simple defintion to them? Or others.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 4, 2007)

Mental retardedness...or rather more precisely the developmentally disabled. That is a physical/biological condition. Granted it's the development of the brain...but it affects the abilities of learning and functioning. It's not an emotional or psychological state that shifts...medicine doesn't make them more capable or cover up symptoms. It's the difference between being born with a deformed arm and having a mood swing (and I'm not trying to take mood swings lightly...I've seen severe cases of this as well).


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 4, 2007)

I agree with that. I probably came accross the wrong way. I just thought Meg's definetion was overly simplified. Alot of the times someone including myself cant help what they are thinking or their mood normally. Ive started taking SAMe but its a longer and harder process than for someone who does not have this problem.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 4, 2007)

beej6 said:


> I've sometimes wondered if I'm the only Reformed psychiatrist who's still practicing.



You're a psychiatrist? Well, you're not the only one...I know a Reformed psychiatrist and a Reformed psychologist.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 4, 2007)

And quit honeslty if it were not for knowing Jesus Christ and His grace, and a loving family(mom+grandma) I probably would have killed myself by now.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 4, 2007)

Bladestunner316 said:


> I agree with that. I probably came accross the wrong way. I just thought Meg's definetion was overly simplified. Alot of the times someone including myself cant help what they are thinking or their mood normally. Ive started taking SAMe but its a longer and harder process than for someone who does not have this problem.



I do agree that some ppl struggle much more in this area than others and shifting out of these things are more difficult than for the average person. Thank you for recognizing the difference...I have a developmentally disabled half-brother. He is 17 now and will never be more than 12yrs in his abilities and I have known others the same way.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 4, 2007)

Bladestunner316 said:


> And quit honeslty if it were not for knowing Jesus Christ and His grace, and a loving family(mom+grandma) I probably would have killed myself by now.



It's amazing how He carries us through the hardest times. When in the darkest moments, we realize it's all Him and none of ourselves.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 4, 2007)

LadyFlynt,
Im sad to hear this about your brother. At my church when I worked in the youth group I helped take care of a developmentally disabled youth. It was a great privilige to do so.


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## turmeric (Feb 4, 2007)

My bad, I was not referring to the developmentally disabled, or to those who have a chemical imbalance, or who have been brain-injured. I'm referring to strictly *mental* disorders.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 4, 2007)

Thank you Meg for the clarification.


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