# Well, my boss returned my "Debating Calvinism" book



## ReformedWretch (Jan 31, 2005)

It seemed pretty quick so when I saw him later I asked if he had read it. He said;

"I read Dave Hunt's chapters since he pretty much feels as I do. It gave me a deeper understanding of what I believe. I skimmed the other guys chapters but I just can't agree with him at all.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 31, 2005)

You tell him that's his problem ? It's easy to read other people who agree with you and come away thinking you know it all........... but interact fully with a view opposite yours along with a Bible open and..... ???


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## SmokingFlax (Jan 31, 2005)

That's pretty scary...

You can lead a horse to water but...


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 31, 2005)

Ask him if he truly believes Proverbs 18:17 (ESV): "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." If he does, and is honest with himself, it should trouble him to refuse the reading of all full material from the other side.


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 31, 2005)

I've had lengthy discussions (civil ones) on this issue and he just says the bible says what it means and then quotes "Who so ever will shall come." I have gone over that passage from the Calvinist perspective a dozen times but he insists that I am playing word games.


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## govols (Feb 1, 2005)

You actually work? J/K 

I thought they were paying you to post on the board.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 1, 2005)

lol!

I have my desk sitting here in the living room of the house. I get up to do what needs to be done, have conversations, etc. When the kids are busy, at school or activities, I post.

:bigsmile:


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## daveb (Feb 1, 2005)

I've had similar experiences recommending books to friends. I once gave a friend a book to read, it was contrary to their view of spiritual gifts/charismatics. They said they were interested in reading it but then returned it a few days later. When I asked why he hadn't read it he replied, "God told me not to".


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## SmokingFlax (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:

"When I asked why he hadn't read it he replied, "God told me not to". 

Oh man...this kind of thing drives me crazy. I've heard it in so many absurd contexts: ("God told me what clothes to wear"..."God told me to go (there)."...etc.). I'm surprised I didn't bolt from the charismatic scene much sooner as I've always had big doubts when I heard people talk like that.


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## Average Joey (Feb 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I've had lengthy discussions (civil ones) on this issue and he just says the bible says what it means and then quotes "Who so ever will shall come." I have gone over that passage from the Calvinist perspective a dozen times but he insists that I am playing word games.



Where is "Who so ever will shall come" in the Bible?At least the way Arminians use it?



[Edited on 2-1-2005 by Average Joey]


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 3, 2005)

Disarming technique....


'That's true. The Bible does say "whoever will, let him come" '

But in light of Romans 3:10-18, who will come ?

Then take Him to John 6:37-44 and ask him some of the 'hard' questions.

I did a short commentary on John 6:37-end of the chapter here:

http://theologicallycorrect.com/relationship/ch7.html

If your friend is web-saavy, send him here.


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## panta dokimazete (Feb 3, 2005)

Wow. I heard the same "whosoever will" quote at a revival I was helping with from the guest pastor...I spoke to him later and dialogued:

me: "OK, but you do you agree that you are either a slave to sin or to righteousness?"

him: "yes"

me: "do you think you would willfully come to righteousness if you were a slave to sin?"

him: "no..."

me: "then whosoever will will only be whosoever is enabled, right?"

him: "ok..."

me: "who enables?"

him: "Hey! Brother Joe, how ya'll been doin'!" **leaves me** (or something like that)

*sigh*


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## cultureshock (Feb 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) 

Brian


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## gwine (Feb 4, 2005)

(ESV) 17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

(NKJV) 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

(NIV) 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

(HCSB) 17 Both the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Anyone who hears should say, "Come!" And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift.

(NASB) 17 The (A)Spirit and the (B)bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come " And (C)let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the (D)water of life without cost.


And, as a cross reference:

Isaiah 55:1 (ESV)

1"Come, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.

interesting. veddy interesting.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 4, 2005)

That book is terrible anyway... it's not really a debate, just Dave Hunt's efforts to machine-gun Calvinism with ad hominems, straw man arguments, and distortions, and historical obfuscations. 

Here is my Amazon.com review of the book...
Debating Calvinism : Five Points, Two Views
by Dave Hunt, James White 
Paperback: 432 pages
Publisher: Multnomah (February 1, 2004)
ISBN: 1590522737

Man's Quest for God or God's Quest for Man.
Calvinism is an appellation often ascribed to the doctrines esteeming the sovereign grace of God in man's redemption. It is not the invention of Calvin, but the historic Biblical theology of Augustine, the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not take my affirmation of Calvinism very lightly (Jas. 3:1). Sovereign grace rightly understood should bring humility, as no one deserves grace.

Dave Hunt is so profoundly disingenuous in his debating style while White makes some erudite, sound, Scriptural affirmations for the doctrines of grace. Hunt tries to appeal to petty emotional arguments and seeks to wring out confusion in the mind of laity. I don't know why he feels the compulsion to resell this book myself given his showing in this so-called debate. Dave Hunt demeans meaningful debate with the shotgun approach-unleashing a cornucopia of logical fallacies by way of ad hominem attacks, red herrings, straw mans, and poisoning the well. I think White, given the constraints of time, does an excellent job at tackling the objections of Hunt to Calvinism.

Dave Hunt's diversionary character assassination against John Calvin deserves more repudiation than White had time for. Among Hunt's more far-fetched assertions are: the idea that John Calvin himself is snared by Roman Catholic dogmas; and that Lutherans and Calvinists had droves of Protestants burned for rejecting infant baptism. White approaches the debate with composure and a calmly reasoned affirmation of Scriptural truths. Trailing away from meaningful debate on soteriology, Hunt erroneously purports that Calvin believes that baptismal regeneration is vitally requisite for salvation by misquoting and misreading him. This is a complete libel and White for time constraint never repudiated it! Calvin's Institutes refutes a belief that baptism is requisite for salvation: "But there is a danger that he who is sick may be deprived of the gift of regeneration if he decease without baptism! By no means. Our children, before they are born, God declares that he adopts for his own when he promises that he will be a God to us, and to our seed after us." The very fact that James White whom Hunt is debating is a Reformed Baptist-and a proponent of believer's baptism-should filet this red herring. Calvin a man, who confessed Christ as Lord and Savior, and espoused justification by faith alone, is condemned as a hell-bound apostate by Dave Hunt. The Arminian divine John Wesley never demeaned Calvin with such slander, but called him, "A very learned and pious man..." and Wesley spoke highly of Calvin's Bible commentaries.

In addressing total depravity and its concomitant doctrine of total inability, Hunt fails to delineate between exhortations for the faithful to seek God and Scriptural affirmations of the natural unregenerate man being dead in sins and trespasses and thus unable to repent (Rom. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:1,5; Col. 2:13; 1 Cor. 2:14.) Faith does not precede regeneration (John 6:43-44), and is not wrought out in the heart of sinful man (Rom. 9:16). Hunt dubiously contends faith precedes the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, and essentially exalts the will of man, and makes faith out to be man's gift to God. Hunt's dubious Scriptural readings and erroneous contentions are numerous, but James R. White does a sound job in bringing many of them to the truth. White stays focused on the issue at hand, which is soteriology-the doctrine of salvation according to Jesus Christ.

Hunt gets incensed at the Scriptural logic of a Calvinist and gets more and more visceral in his responses-and towards the end of the book his proclivity for contriving caricatures of Calvinism is almost comical. I actually encourage ironclad Arminians, so called moderate Calvinists, and those soteriological agnostics standing on the fence of the sovereignty debate to read this book. Man-exalting synergism collapses beneath the weight of its unscriptural contradictions.

Debating Calvinism deserves at best three-stars since this is not really a debate-but a mouse trying to spar with a lion. Hunt tries to use the brute force of invective argument while eschewing logic, and ends up-well defeated. Read it yourself and don't take my word for it. An honest inquiry into soteriology requires a systematic, logical, and exegetical reading of the Bible, particularly the systematic Pauline theology of the epistle to the Romans. I might recommend reading any of the following: _The Doctrines of Grace_ by Boice and Ryken; _The Five Points of Calvinism_ by Steele and Thomas; R.C. Sproul's anthology _Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will_; and Martin Luther's _The Bondage of the Will_, as a backdrop to reading this so called debate. I embrace what is often called the doctrines of grace, the tenets of Calvinism, or Augustinian-Pauline monergism because its credence is found in the Word of God and the teachings of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Sovereign grace rightly understood should humble a person. Soli Deo Gloria! All the glory to God!


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 4, 2005)

Great review Ryan!

Now can you see my frustration when Hunt's responses is all my boss read?


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## lwadkins (Feb 4, 2005)

Ahhh, come on. We have a personal relationship with God. I mean when 
God speaks to me and leads me in a certian direction, I am not about to grieve the Holy Spirit by using my brain.... please note the sarcasim.


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## future expatriate (Feb 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> Ahhh, come on. We have a personal relationship with God. I mean when God speaks to me and leads me in a certian direction, I am not about to grieve the Holy Spirit by using my brain....


When that was posed to me--sadly, it really was--I replied with, "Jesus came to take away your sins, not your mind."

[Edited on 2-6-2005 by future expatriate]


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