# The Problem: God is omnipotent, good, yet evil exists.



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jan 31, 2005)

What is the definition of good and evil?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 31, 2005)

Good is what God defines as good, that which is done according to His character and law. Evil is that which violates His law either outwardly or inwardly.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 31, 2005)

Evil = sin. 
Sin = transgression of Gods Holy law 
Evil is the absence of good
Only God is good.

Mar 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> What is the definition of good and evil?



Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things


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## BobVigneault (Jan 31, 2005)

Ian, catastophe would be a better translation of the King James' 'evil' in Isaiah.

Scott, I don't think evil is just the absence of good.

What Josephs brothers meant for evil, God meant for good. Their seems to be intent or will that drives evil. It is a force and even takes on a personality when satan is invoved. I'm thinking off the top of my head here.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 31, 2005)

Bob,

Actually evil is accurate, but catastrophe is more accesible to our language usage. Biblical language does however use evil in a broader sense than simply making it "sin".


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 31, 2005)

1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 

Darkness is to evil as light is to good. Only God is Good. Darkness is the absence of light. satan is evil. Evil is the absence of good.

[Edited on 1-31-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## BobVigneault (Jan 31, 2005)

"Darkness is to evil as light is to good."
There are some great similarities but I won't concede that there is 100% concurrance. 

My boss keeps coming in, you guys are going to get me in trouble. That might be evil.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 31, 2005)

Indeed!


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jan 31, 2005)

What do you think of this definition

"Good is opposed to evil, in such a way that a good thing always eliminates an evil thing as far as it can"


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 31, 2005)

Along the lines of a thread title, the reason that is not a philosophical problem is that people who make that claim in objection to Christianity don't even have a standard by which they can define good and evil. Is it consensual or absolute? If consensual, nothing is binding, and they cannot accuse God of allowing evil. If absolute, by what standard? They simply cannot meaningfully answer that question. Thus, the "problem" of _good_ and _evil_ only even arises once God is already in the picture, as the standard. Thus, it can't be a "problem" as such.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 31, 2005)

I agree completely Chris, there is no "problem of evil". I think that Scott and other's are using the moral evil definition where those who ask the question are speaking of evil in a general sense (which includes but is not exclusive to immorality). Of course if we're dealing with Pagans they are begging the question by even suggesting there is a moral STANDARD by which actions can be judged. 

So then if they are playing on our field they must play by our rules. That means defining God, and evil, and sin in terms of biblical doctrine.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> What do you think of this definition
> 
> "Good is opposed to evil, in such a way that a good thing always eliminates an evil thing as far as it can"



Still waiting for a resonse to this...


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 1, 2005)

I disagree with the wording based upon the idea that 'eliminates' points to possesion of some sort. God is good; there is no evil to 'eliminate'.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> ...



That definition of good seems to simply change the underlying question to, "What is evil?" One has to be defined in terms of the other, and one independent of the other, else there is just a meaningless circle. And if we see God as the ultimate starting point, we must start with good, defining it as whatever qualities of character He possesses, and expressed in His revelation and law. Evil, therefore, is simply that which is antithetical to His qualities as expressed in His revelation and law.

The main problem I have with your above definition is that it treats evil as the starting point, and then attempts to define good in terms of it, whereas God is the ultimate starting point.


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## doulosChristou (Feb 1, 2005)

I disagree too. I'd prefer:

"God is opposed to evil, in such a way that God always decrees and controls every evil thing in such a way as to bring about his good and perfect end."





[Edited on 1-2-2005 by doulosChristou]


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> What is the definition of good and evil?
> 
> 
> ...



My first post was basically a reply to the title. In my second post, I did attempt to answer the question of defining the two terms:



> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> One has to be defined in terms of the other, and one independent of the other, else there is just a meaningless circle. And if we see God as the ultimate starting point, we must start with good, defining it as whatever qualities of character He possesses, and expressed in His revelation and law. Evil, therefore, is simply that which is antithetical to His qualities as expressed in His revelation and law.



Tim, did you have something else in mind?


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 2, 2005)

Doh!


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## knight4christ8 (Feb 2, 2005)

*I would be more specific than it seems most are.*

Good is seeking the knowledge of God, understanding what is clear about Him, and doing what is right. Which is the ultimate good as determined by God.

Evil is not seeking, not understanding what is clear, and not doing what is right. Which is what God has determined to be evil for man.


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## knight4christ8 (Feb 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> good is what conforms to God's holy character. Evil is that which is antithetical to His character. The definition is based on Himself since He is the standard.



Obviously though Paul, there would have to be some determinate command by God for the creature, because God uses men to accomplish His purposes at His disposal, but this would be wrong for man to do even if it was in attempt to accomplish God's end.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> I disagree with the wording based upon the idea that 'eliminates' points to possesion of some sort. God is good; there is no evil to 'eliminate'.



I don't understand this statement.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> I disagree too. I'd prefer:
> 
> "God is opposed to evil, in such a way that God always decrees and controls every evil thing in such a way as to bring about his good and perfect end."
> ...



So your saying that evil is neccessary as a means to good?


[Edited on 2-2-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## knight4christ8 (Feb 6, 2005)

Paul,
Can you give me more info on when and in what form my def. was supposedly refuted and stamped "unorthodox"?

Also, evil serves the good. Man could know the goodness of God in His original state, but could he know that goodness in grace? Evil deepened the revelation of God. We can now know God's overwhelming grace and undeserved love after understanding the wrath of God instigated thorugh our evil, which would have been unrevealed and unknowable before the Fall.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



Here is the quote:



> "Good is opposed to evil, in such a way that a good thing always eliminates an evil thing as far as it can"



We have already established the obvious:

Evil = sin. 
Sin = transgression of Gods Holy law 
Evil is the absence of good
Only God is good.

Mar 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 

1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 

Darkness is to evil as light is to good. Only God is Good. Darkness is the absence of light. satan is evil. Evil is the absence of good.

The terms need to be defined:
God is good:
In regards to God:
Good may _repel_ evil; it does not _eliminate_ it as good and evil cannot possess the same space.

In regards to men: 
I agree w/ the statement. 



[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 6, 2005)

"So the calamity [tsunami] — so distressing for those individually involved — was for humanity as a whole a profoundly moral occurrence, and an act of God performed for our benefit." Historian Paul Johnson


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## gwine (Feb 7, 2005)

evil happens when you live a vile life and it gets scrambled


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Feb 7, 2005)

Here is an analysis of where this all came from, from a girl in my philosophy class (we have certain days where we are assigned to write an analysis of the daily topic)

" In "evil and Omnipotence," Mackie discusses the problem of evil based on the supposed incompatibility of three points: that God is all-powerful, that God is all-good, and that evil exists. If God is in control of everything and completely good, and good eliminates all evil, then it does not make sense that evil exists. Mackie argues against four prpositions that people have offered to explain the problem of evil, claiming that although all four appear to maintain all three statements, each one implicity throws out one or more of the points. The first three propositions imply that evil is somehow necessary, either for good to exist or for the end benefit for the world. Mackie counters this idea by stating that it limits God's power, undermiines His goodness, or creates a never-ending cycle of evils necessary for a better good. The final solution proclaims humans free will as the root of evil. Mackie insists that an omnipotent God could have created free-will humans who always choose the good thing so therefore God was not omnipotent, is not now omnipotent (because he created something He now can't control), or is not completely good because He does not stop people from doing evil. " - Erin Poovey


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## knight4christ8 (Feb 9, 2005)

Paul,
My first paragraph was to you. Sorry for no distinction in audience. 2nd paragraph was not directed at our issue.



> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by knight4christ8_
> ...



Ok, most importantly, there is nothing here which tells me "when" and "where" my view was proven to be unorthodox as you claim it was. If you can't back this up, that is slander. I am not saying that you can't, and am humbly willing to accept correction, but if I am going to be admonished I would like it to be through truth. Thank you.

God does not seek Himself. Good and evil, in the context that we were speaking, was that which is such for man. God determined good and evil for man. As the creature good is to seek God, evil is to fail to seek God. Clarity refers to how God makes Himself known, and thereby leaves men inexcusable. It is clear, and b/c of this man's lack of knowledge about God is inexcusable. Maximal clarity demands maximal inexcusability, which demands maximal punishment (spiritual death). Spiritual death is the consequence for not seeking God, though He has expressed Himself clearly. Sin is not seeking and not understanding what has been made clear. The failure to understand everything that God has revealed about Himself is due to the obscurity caused by sin. General and Special revelation communicate God clearly, but the believer stands as proof for the marring nature of sin when believers still fail to see what has been made clear. 

No reason to be blunt and rude, as you have been. If I am being unclear let me know, and I will try to expound.

You are not the only one who is evil. We are all evil at the point of unbelief, where we fail to seek the truth of God and surrender to our autonomous nature. "Now it being our duty to mortify, to be killing of sin whilst it is in us, we must be at work." John Owen
How do we mortify? Seek God. What is sin at its root? A failure to seek what is true about God's holiness, justice, mercy and wrath.


[Edited on 9-2-2005 by knight4christ8]


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