# Saved through childbearing???



## irresistible_grace (Jun 13, 2013)

I am trying to understand the argument that is made for women not being allowed to pray. So, I am reading 1 Timothy 2 which sent me on a rabbit trail... 

*What does "saved through childbearing" mean*? Wouldn't that be salvation by works? And, what does being "saved through childbearing" have to do with praying for all people?
Why don't the men who believe "women are not allowed to pray" have to "lift" their "hands" when praying?
Is not prayer distinct from "teaching or exercising authority" over men?
Is this act of "praying" in 1 Timothy 2 referring to prayers that take place on the Lord's Day in corporate worship (by the Pastor/Elders) or is this ALL audible prayers where there are males & females present? And, if the latter, what about family prayer? Am I to remain silent & my daughter too? Typically we each pray (youngest to oldest) and my husband closes the prayer... Am I exercising authority over my husbands and my sons if I pray audibly? Is my daughter exercising authority over her father & brothers if she is praying audibly?

*"Saved through childbearing"* ... If the last verse of this passage is NOT to be taken at face value, why is the rest of this passage to be taken at face value?

Are women to be silent? Silent? SILENT? Not just when it comes to exercising authority & teaching (which is limited to ordained "male" Elders) but when it comes to "prayer" too? And, if this is the case why are men that are not ordained allowed to pray in "prayer meetings?" 

My apologies in advance if I this post doesn't make any sense.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 13, 2013)

There are different views as to what Paul may be driving at. Certainly, one that he ISN'T advocating is works-salvation.

A popular view is that in submitting to God's order and discipline (with reference to Gen.3) women--who are just as much rebels as men--will find redemption. Through faith in Christ, of course, but demonstrated (similar to what James says using the example of Abraham) by godliness, which from the origin of Paul's argument is demonstrated by conforming to a wifely and motherly instinct.

A view I've come to prefer is that Paul leaps from Gen.3 to a kind of fulfillment of the seed-promise first articulated there. So that he is literally saying, "woman, though disgraced with her man from the beginning, will be saved through *the* childbirth," that is, the special one that was promised and the Virgin Birth. The definite article is present in the Gk of 1Tim.2:15, but like frequently in our English translations, our grammar might not prefer to see it. But if Paul intended this to be a unique reference, then the def.art. presence is more than incidental to his meaning, and the translation should retain it.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jun 13, 2013)

Contra_Mundum said:


> A view I've come to prefer is that Paul leaps from Gen.3 to a kind of fulfillment of the seed-promise first articulated there. So that he is literally saying, "woman, though disgraced with her man from the beginning, will be saved through the childbirth," that is, the special one that was promised and the Virgin Birth. The definite article is present in the Gk of 1Tim.2:15, but like frequently in our English translations, our grammar might not prefer to see it. But if Paul intended this to be a unique reference, then the def.art. presence is more than incidental to his meaning, and the translation should retain it.



 Rev. Buchanan, as usual, is spot on.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 13, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Why don't the men who believe "women are not allowed to pray" have to "lift" their "hands" when praying?
> Is not prayer distinct from "teaching or exercising authority" over men?
> Is this act of "praying" in 1 Timothy 2 referring to prayers that take place on the Lord's Day in corporate worship (by the Pastor/Elders) or is this ALL audible prayers where there are males & females present? And, if the latter, what about family prayer? Am I to remain silent & my daughter too? Typically we each pray (youngest to oldest) and my husband closes the prayer... Am I exercising authority over my husbands and my sons if I pray audibly? Is my daughter exercising authority over her father & brothers if she is praying audibly?


Wouldn't 1 Corinthians 11 be the answer to this?


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## PaulMc (Jun 13, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Why don't the men who believe "women are not allowed to pray" have to "lift" their "hands" when praying?
> Is not prayer distinct from "teaching or exercising authority" over men?
> Is this act of "praying" in 1 Timothy 2 referring to prayers that take place on the Lord's Day in corporate worship (by the Pastor/Elders) or is this ALL audible prayers where there are males & females present? And, if the latter, what about family prayer? Am I to remain silent & my daughter too? Typically we each pray (youngest to oldest) and my husband closes the prayer... Am I exercising authority over my husbands and my sons if I pray audibly? Is my daughter exercising authority over her father & brothers if she is praying audibly?
> 
> Are women to be silent? Silent? SILENT? Not just when it comes to exercising authority & teaching (which is limited to ordained "male" Elders) but when it comes to "prayer" too? And, if this is the case why are men that are not ordained allowed to pray in "prayer meetings?"



A few thoughts on the issue of women praying in public that you brought up:

It could be argued that women praying in meetings would be, in effect, 'leading' the congregation in prayer, and thus exercising authority?

I would perhaps take chapters 2 and 3 of 1 Timothy in the context of what Paul says in 3:14-15:
"These things write I unto thee... that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pilar and ground of the truth."

In which case it would seem to apply to public meetings of the church - but perhaps I am wrong in that.

Regards,
Paul


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 13, 2013)

arap said:


> irresistible_grace said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't the men who believe "women are not allowed to pray" have to "lift" their "hands" when praying?
> ...



How so?


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## irresistible_grace (Jun 13, 2013)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > A view I've come to prefer is that Paul leaps from Gen.3 to a kind of fulfillment of the seed-promise first articulated there. So that he is literally saying, "woman, though disgraced with her man from the beginning, will be saved through the childbirth," that is, the special one that was promised and the Virgin Birth. The definite article is present in the Gk of 1Tim.2:15, but like frequently in our English translations, our grammar might not prefer to see it. But if Paul intended this to be a unique reference, then the def.art. presence is more than incidental to his meaning, and the translation should retain it.
> ...



 I always like reading what Rev. Buchanan has to say!


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## py3ak (Jun 13, 2013)

While I too find Bruce's posts to be a great source of illumination and encouragement, I'd like to expand a little on the _other_ view he mentioned, which seems to me to fit better within 1 Timothy than the redemptive-historical/allegorical reading. This of course addresses only one of the questions in the OP directly.

In general we know that perseverance is necessary: _he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved_ (Matthew 10:22); _be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life_ (Revelation 2:10). And in the NT perseverance is often brought into connection with a particular aspect of the Christian life, and nowhere is that clearer than in 1 Timothy. In reference to a role that many women have, Paul says that _she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety_ (1 Timothy 2:15). It is not that having a child is something that saves you; but that a woman called to salvation in that role isn’t called to persevere in something else: perseverance takes place precisely in the situation where God has placed you. If we read it with a slight adjustment it is simply a definition of perseverance: _she shall be saved … if she continues in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety_. That is true of any of us. We must continue in faith, charity, and holiness with sobriety. Read in that way, it is probably the most comprehensive description of perseverance in the New Testament. By adding “in childbearing” Paul particularizes it to a role many women have, and focuses on the particular danger of being deceived in the usurpation of authority. But what relates to a woman in that situation faced with that temptation, is applicable to everyone in every situation and facing every temptation, as long as the specific calling is modified. Paul himself gives us an example of that: a little later in this same book, to a minister he says, _Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee_ (1 Timothy 4:16). Timothy is not saved apart from steadfastness in his ministerial labors: he has to continue in watchfulness over his heart and his doctrine. That doesn’t mean that every man has to be a preacher in order to be saved, any more than a woman has to have a child in order to be saved; a hearer is not necessarily a preacher, and yet both classes are mentioned in the text as being saved. But for both preacher and hearer, for mothers and children, for servants and masters, no one is saved apart from perseverance in the particular role God has given, and the particular duties that role requires. Perseverance in grace necessarily includes perseverance in our own individual vocations – in the specific duties and individual requirements that our God-ordained circumstances impose.


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## GoodTreeMinistries.com (Jun 14, 2013)

I received in the mail yesterday a booklet from Free Grace Broadcaster which is part of Chapel Library's ministry. The current issue was on babies. In it was a section on SAVED IN CHILDBEARING by Stephen Charnock (1628-1680). Main verse was Notwithstanding she shall be saved in child-bearing, if they continue in faith, and charity, and holiness, with sobriety.—1 Timothy 2:15. Here is link to online booklet version http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/archive/pdf-english/babifg.pdf It start on page 26 of free ebook. I hope this helps some. God Bless!


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