# Why is it harder to find a spouse today?



## arapahoepark (Jun 10, 2020)

What are your thoughts? Has technology wrought this? Hook up culture? Shallower people?


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## Jonathan95 (Jun 10, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> What are your thoughts? Has technology wrought this? Hook up culture? Shallower people?



Idk if you've seen Paul Washer's many videos on "dating" and relationships. He spoke a lot about how parents have left children to decide for themselves how to go through life in terms of career, relationships, beliefs, etc.

He then speaks on how Christians should have parents who help them with these decisions in life. I think leaving children to do all of this on their own leads to things like what you mentioned above. They have no wisdom to use when finding a spouse.

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## 1689er (Jun 10, 2020)

In many ways, it is actually easier. With the advent of online dating, you can actually meet good candidates from the same theological tradition(in our case Reformed). People have always been shallow. But you do have a point with the hookup culture, along with fewer mature candidates, due to the state of the American church. You also likely know fewer good candidates in person, which would make things more difficult.


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## retroGRAD3 (Jun 10, 2020)

The other negative is that many people are not marrying anymore or are divorced after only a few short years of marriage. Also, people have multiple partners with no firm commitment to any of them.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 10, 2020)

I have one hypothesis that may partially explain this. With the proliferation of sexual impulses all over the internet/media, emphasis on “glamour shots” that accentuate personal beauty, and general networking in which people are flooded with potential candidates, it’s tougher for people to decide on, land, and be content with significant others.

Yes online dating can help, but I think it’s buffet style approach can almost be self defeating.

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## Peter Bell (Jun 10, 2020)

I'm not sure I'd make a universal statement as such. For what it's worth, in my (limited) experience, Christian men tend to be a little more sheepish around Christian women compared to non-believing men in the same situation with non-believing women.

I don't generally hear this sentiment from Christian women. It's usually more to the effect of, "why aren't the men of the church approaching me?"

I know there are far more factors in place that condition this (social media, sexual proliferation, online dating, etc.), but that's my humble opinion.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 10, 2020)

Peter Bell said:


> I'm not sure I'd make a universal statement as such. For what it's worth, in my (limited) experience, Christian men tend to be a little more sheepish around Christian women compared to non-believing men in the same situation with non-believing women.
> 
> I don't generally hear this sentiment from Christian women. It's usually more to the effect of, "why aren't the men of the church approaching me?"
> 
> I know there are far more factors in place that condition this (social media, sexual proliferation, online dating, etc.), but that's my humble opinion.


I'd be interested to know more. I suspect it is because, in trying to be respectful, we do not want to be seen both desperate, creepy or perverted as nearly all unbelievers of my generation are.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 10, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> I have one hypothesis that may partially explain this. With the proliferation of sexual impulses all over the internet/media, emphasis on “glamour shots” that accentuate personal beauty, and general networking in which people are flooded with potential candidates, it’s tougher for people to decide on, land, and be content with significant others.
> 
> Yes online dating can help, but I think it’s buffet style approach can almost be self defeating.


Interesting. Makes sense. Having tried online dating in the past, I came to the conclusion everyone on there is shallow. Even as an introvert, it is worse than anything.

Reactions: Amen 2


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## De Jager (Jun 10, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> I have one hypothesis that may partially explain this. With the proliferation of sexual impulses all over the internet/media, emphasis on “glamour shots” that accentuate personal beauty, and general networking in which people are flooded with potential candidates, it’s tougher for people to decide on, land, and be content with significant others.
> 
> Yes online dating can help, but I think it’s buffet style approach can almost be self defeating.



Last July I married my wife, and I met her online. I can speak from experience that it is difficult to use those services in a pure way and which honours the Lord. At times it feels like window shopping. At times I found myself sending a message based 80% on looks and 20% on what her profile said. In the end, I really had to pray hard for God to give me an appreciation for the hidden beauty of the heart and that I would not be so focused on the outward appearance. He truly answered that prayer and gave me a wonderful girl (who I also happen to find attractive...but the attraction started small and grew over time).

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## 1689er (Jun 11, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The other negative is that many people are not marrying anymore or are divorced after only a few short years of marriage. Also, people have multiple partners with no firm commitment to any of them.


You make a good point. Western culture is generally anti-commitment which influences our view of marriage. Another problem is the skin-deep nature of online dating. Some have already pointed this out, but you only have a few statements(that they have written about themselves) and a picture. So as with standard dating, it still has problems.


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## KMK (Jun 11, 2020)

Just to clarify, are you asking about Christian spouses, or spouses in general?


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## arapahoepark (Jun 11, 2020)

KMK said:


> Just to clarify, are you asking about Christian spouses, or spouses in general?


Either, I suppose since even Christians are following the ways of the world.


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## KMK (Jun 11, 2020)

Its just that your question assumes the case. I am 25 years removed from the dating scene. Is it common knowledge among Millennials that it is harder to find spouses? Has there been a decline in marriages?


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## arapahoepark (Jun 11, 2020)

KMK said:


> Its just that your question assumes the case. I am 25 years removed from the dating scene. Is it common knowledge among Millennials that it is harder to find spouses? Has there been a decline in marriages?


Yes to both.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 11, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> What are your thoughts? Has technology wrought this? Hook up culture? Shallower people?



I guess we have to consider what era you're comparing. Way back in history people didn't choose their spouses they were arranged. I think our perception of dating became a new concept in the 1800s and really took off in the early part of the 20th century.


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## KMK (Jun 11, 2020)

What are the benefits of marriage for modern unbelievers? Tax breaks? Visitation rights?


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## jwithnell (Jun 11, 2020)

KMK said:


> Visitation rights?


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## arapahoepark (Jun 11, 2020)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> I guess we have to consider what era you're comparing. Way back in history people didn't choose their spouses they were arranged. I think our perception of dating became a new concept in the 1800s and really took off in the early part of the 20th century.


I am thinking, largely, of the change within the past decade or two.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 11, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> I am thinking, largely, of the change within the past decade or two.



The largest change is that everybody became more comfortable with finding a person online. I met my wife online using Match.com and we have been together for 7 years and married for 5. That would be the largest change that I have seen overall. My reasoning for going online is that not many in my congregation that were single were of the same age range as me. However, what you will find is a bunch of people who don't take their faith seriously and those looking for fun and a free date. Took me many dates to meet my wife... She will tell you that what stood our to her is that in my profile I made very direct statements about being a Christians and taking my faith seriously. You may find some luck online if you haven't tried that route.


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## Minh (Jun 11, 2020)

People don't want to share the burden of being a family member. Keeping a family together require both husband and wife to be very financially and spiritually well-prepared if expectation is positive. This reflect the fact that dating couples are "simulating" marriage life to decide whether it's appropriate to be yolked together.


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## Polanus1561 (Jun 11, 2020)

The economy isn't helping. Financial insecurities can affect even godly men in their pursuits.

Also relevant : https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/dude-wheres-your-bride/


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## Afterthought (Jun 11, 2020)

Is there more fragmentation in theology, philosophy, and cultural views than there once was?


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## Frosty (Jun 11, 2020)

I think the internet dating thing is more a symptom/remedy to the issue presented, rather than a cause.

There are many causes, in my mind.
-The long-term effects of feminism
-The long-term effects of emasculating men
-p0rnography, and the shame, emasculation, and damage that accompanies.
-Women being more career-focused (see feminism)
-Parents taking a more hands-off approach than in the past
-The extension of 'childhood' into the 20's (maybe symptom and not cause..?)
-A general skepticism toward marriage among young people. They've seen so many people get divorced over the years.
-Financial fear. Many think you need each spouse to have a great job, 2 good cars, a house, and a dog BEFORE you can safely be married.
-I also have a theory that people are becoming lazier over time. Generationally. Making marriage work (well) takes selflessness and commitment. Of course there are so many pluses that they can't even be counted, but people are easily scared by anything that takes work.

And of course all of the above are a mere reflection of a deeper spiritual problem. I do think there is something to what you bring up here. Less people are getting married at a young age.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 12, 2020)

There's probably many reasons why it's harder to find a spouse. Some have already been mentioned. So I'll just add a few more. 

1) The myth of "the one": many people think that there is only one match out there for them, and so if they have run into some trouble with a prospective spouse, they give up and move on prematurely. The fact is that out of 2 billion professing Christians in the world (half of which are women), there are likely thousands with whom you could have a good marriage. 
2) The myth that "love should be easy": closely tied to the above, people think true love should not require a lot of work to be successful, when in fact it requires a lot of self-denial, communication, repentance, and forgiveness. In fact, it probably requires even more self-denial today than in previous generations because we are groomed by society to be selfish. 
3) A misunderstanding of the role of marriage: too many approach marriage thinking that the other partner must "complete" them, in the sense that the partner will bring you to full self-actualization while at the same time requiring very little of you. You want a "low maintenance"/maximum benefit partner. Finding a partner like that will be extremely hard in a world full of sinners. 
4) The corrupting influence of pornagraphy: standards of beauty and sexuality and the expectations of a relationship have been warped by this influence, even if you have never looked at explicit porngraphy. It's the air of the culture we breathe. 
5) The lack of good male mentors: many men grow up without a good model for what a husband should be, especially if they come from broken homes. Even if their dads are still part of their lives, their dads can't model for them how to be faithful in marriage because their marriage failed. Most of our worldview and problem solving skills as young adults are absorbed from our family growing up. Yes, you can learn the skills with effort later on, but you get a head start with a good parental marriage. 

There is a lot of overlap in these. But these are just some thoughts.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Edward (Jun 12, 2020)

KMK said:


> What are the benefits of marriage for modern unbelievers? Tax breaks? Visitation rights?



A big one in the US is probably employer subsidized health care. The Supreme Court legislation in _Obergefell _pulled the teeth on the push to extend benefits to unmarried cohabitants. So if a couple is shacking up, and one has good employer subsidized health care, and the other is having to buy an inferior product in the marketplace, suddenly marriage can look more attractive.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 12, 2020)

Edward said:


> A big one in the US is probably employer subsidized health care. The Supreme Court legislation in _Obergefell _pulled the teeth on the push to extend benefits to unmarried cohabitants. So if a couple is shacking up, and one has good employer subsidized health care, and the other is having to buy an inferior product in the marketplace, suddenly marriage can look more attractive.


The military in particular is terribly influential with regards to this... so many young enlisted get married to get out of the barracks, receive additional family benefits and separation pay during deployment. The divorce rate is horrendous.

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## Pergamum (Jun 12, 2020)

Laws make marriage a risky proposition in the US for men and most Western women are not worth the risk and have been brainwashed to some degree by the culture. Many evangelical churches will blame it on men not "manning up" and marrying these deficient creatures, but our public schools have churned out entitled hypergamous princesses who can't cook or clean, milk a cow, or clean a chicken. And then of course, if a car loses half its value once you drive it off the lot once, what does this say about our current generation of women. 40% of children are born out of wedlock (for whites 29 percent; Hispanics, 53 percent; and blacks, 71 percent) and many have lived with others before marriage. I fear for my sons and may urge them to look eastward to more traditional cultures to avoid all this baggage.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## arapahoepark (Jun 12, 2020)

Is approaching women part of the issue, particularly in churches?


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## BuckeyeGirl (Jun 13, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Laws make marriage a risky proposition in the US for men and most Western women are not worth the risk and have been brainwashed to some degree by the culture. Many evangelical churches will blame it on men not "manning up" and marrying these deficient creatures, but our public schools have churned out entitled hypergamous princesses who can't cook or clean, milk a cow, or clean a chicken. And then of course, if a car loses half its value once you drive it off the lot once, what does this say about our current generation of women. 40% of children are born out of wedlock (for whites 29 percent; Hispanics, 53 percent; and blacks, 71 percent) and many have lived with others before marriage. I fear for my sons and may urge them to look eastward to more traditional cultures to avoid all this baggage.



There are still American Christian women who are godly, chaste, and desire to be wives and mothers. I know many women who fit this mold but are single. Why? Because godly men of character are not pursuing them. And I don’t say this to disparage Christian men. Instead, it seems that there is a shortage of single Reformed men (or perhaps it’s a surplus of single Reformed women, depending how you look at it). All this to say that your sons may not need to turn eastward to find worthy wives.

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## Pergamum (Jun 14, 2020)

BuckeyeGirl said:


> There are still American Christian women who are godly, chaste, and desire to be wives and mothers. I know many women who fit this mold but are single. Why? Because godly men of character are not pursuing them. And I don’t say this to disparage Christian men. Instead, it seems that there is a shortage of single Reformed men (or perhaps it’s a surplus of single Reformed women, depending how you look at it). All this to say that your sons may not need to turn eastward to find worthy wives.



Thank you. Let's hope so. 

My son is 15 now and is entering a military academy in 3 weeks after shooting prairie dogs for a week or two in Wyoming and my youngest boy is 4 and just likes Blippi (but who doesn't). I'd prefer to find a nice submissive farm girl for both of them (Ma Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie was my first love and is still the ideal woman). So, if you have younger sisters or want a commission as a matchmaker, my son will be ready in about 5 years or so to start his own farmstead. I'll supply the land and the plough and oxen if you can supply the wife for him.

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## Smeagol (Jun 14, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Thank you. Let's hope so.
> 
> My son is 15 now and is entering a military academy in 3 weeks after shooting prairie dogs for a week or two in Wyoming and my youngest boy is 4 and just likes Blippi (but who doesn't). I'd prefer to find a nice submissive farm girl for both of them (Ma Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie was my first love and is still the ideal woman). So, if you have younger sisters or want a commission as a matchmaker, my son will be ready in about 5 years or so to start his own farmstead. I'll supply the land and the plough and oxen if you can supply the wife for him.


I don’t have any for your oldest but I may have you 3 to choose from for the youngest. All gingers. I think I can live with Baptist in-laws but we may still have to have a wrestling match so I can access grit level. Of course the boy needs to have a solid handshake. Maybe you will finally be Presbyterian when they are of age!


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## Pergamum (Jun 14, 2020)

G said:


> I don’t have any for your oldest but I may have you 3 to choose from for youngest. All gingers. I think I can live with Baptist in-laws but we may still have to have a wrestling match so I can access grit level. Of course the boy needs to have a solid handshake. Maybe you will finally be Presbyterian when they are of age!



Fair-skinned gingers are a dying breed and must be preserved. Especially if there are freckles involved. So let's keep in contact and I can swap a cow for one of them in about 18 more years for Gideon! Plus, I am just barely a baptist...so there's that. For the right potential spouse for my boys I might throw one of my children over as a sacrifice to the baby-sprinkler camp. A good wife is worth apostasizing over as a Presbyterian. All my boys will deadlift over 500 and will follow the training methods of the ancient Greek wrestler Milo of Croton who lifted a young calf each day until it matured. But hopefully this won't be necessary to carry his new wife over the threshold on his wedding day. My boys will hopefully not only know the bible but the Iliad and Herodotus by heart, if you are okay with the pagan Greeks. We can pray that they get their social graces from their mother, though, but their firm handshake and grit from me. ..but their hygiene from their mother, too, though (please God).

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## Smeagol (Jun 14, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Fair-skinned gingers are a dying breed and must be preserved. Especially if there are freckles involved. So let's keep in contact and I can swap a cow for one of them in about 18 more years for Gideon! Plus, I am just barely a baptist...so there's that. For the right potential spouse for my boys I might throw one of my children over as a sacrifice to the baby-sprinkler camp. A good wife is worth apostasizing over as a Presbyterian. All my boys will deadlift over 500 and will follow the training methods of the ancient Greek wrestler Milo of Croton who lifted a young calf each day until it matured. But hopefully this won't be necessary to carry his new wife over the threshold on his wedding day. My boys will hopefully not only know the bible but the Iliad and Herodotus by heart, if you are okay with the pagan Greeks. We can pray that they get their social graces from their mother, though, but their firm handshake and grit from me. ..but their hygiene from their mother, too, though (please God).


I will start working on a draft contract now.


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## Pergamum (Jun 14, 2020)

G said:


> I will start working on a draft contract now.


Deal. And I'll keep trying to improve my sons to make them suitable men.

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## BuckeyeGirl (Jun 14, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Thank you. Let's hope so.
> 
> My son is 15 now and is entering a military academy in 3 weeks after shooting prairie dogs for a week or two in Wyoming and my youngest boy is 4 and just likes Blippi (but who doesn't). I'd prefer to find a nice submissive farm girl for both of them (Ma Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie was my first love and is still the ideal woman). So, if you have younger sisters or want a commission as a matchmaker, my son will be ready in about 5 years or so to start his own farmstead. I'll supply the land and the plough and oxen if you can supply the wife for him.



Sounds like Grant has your younger boys covered. Most of the girls I know are a bit old for your oldest, but I might be able to produce someone suitable. I’ll waive the matchmaking commission fee if you produce a godly, hard-working single man to marry me!

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## Pergamum (Jun 14, 2020)

BuckeyeGirl said:


> Sounds like Grant has your younger boys covered. Most of the girls I know are a bit old for your oldest, but I might be able to produce someone suitable. I’ll waive the matchmaking commission fee if you produce a godly, hard-working single man to marry me!



Deal. How many acres can you plough a day if given a reliable mule?


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## BuckeyeGirl (Jun 14, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Deal. How many acres can you plough a day if given a reliable mule?


Give me a reliable mule and a field to plow and we’ll both find out.

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## Andrew35 (Jun 15, 2020)

Having been kicked by a mule as a child, I carry a deep grudge against the breed.

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## arapahoepark (Jun 15, 2020)

Well, I have to say, things might be looking up for me, hopefully. Met a bunch of single Christian ladies my age this weekend through a friend's party. I also surprised myself at how outgoing I was when I knew nobody.

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## arapahoepark (Jun 15, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> Having been kicked by a mule as a child, I carry a deep grudge against the breed.


Was it one of the mules for Sister Sara?

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## Pergamum (Jun 15, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> Having been kicked by a mule as a child, I carry a deep grudge against the breed.



We trained a Missouri mule to jump over a fence. But it would stand next to it and not jump straight over it, but sideways. Very weird to watch. 

He kicked you in the head, didn't he?


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## Andrew35 (Jun 15, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> We trained a Missouri mule to jump over a fence. But it would stand next to it and not jump straight over it, but sideways. Very weird to watch.
> 
> He kicked you in the head, didn't he?


He would have, if he thought he could have gotten away with it. My grandpa probably would have shot him then, though. Nasty critter. Name of "Bob."


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Jun 15, 2020)

I met my wife online 

Methinks it's always been hard for a good man to find a good wife, even as the proverbs confess:

"Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies." -Proverbs 31:10

Notice though a search is implied:

"Who can *find* a virtuous woman?"

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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jun 16, 2020)

Found my wife online too. There is (or was??) a Facebook group called "Reformed Harmony" (used to be called "Reformed PUB Harmony" because it was a spinoff of the Reformed Pub) that is (or was??) for Reformed singles to mingle and interact. Met my wife in there. Got married in late 2018. Had a baby girl (see profile pic) this past August. 

NOTE: I am not sure of the status of Reformed Harmony anymore because they kick you out if you get married; singles only allowed in there. Seems all my friends I made while in RH also got married or left on their own accord so I haven't heard anything about what that group is like and if it's still a viable option for Reformed singles.


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## JTB.SDG (Jun 16, 2020)

This is hard Trent. Praying right now that the Lord brings yours along soon.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 16, 2020)

I wish there was a way to connect all the young women who attend Churches filled with man-children to all the men in Churches where there are few women. I know so many beautiful, young, and Godly women who remain unmarried into their 30's and not for lack of desire to marry.

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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 16, 2020)

I should add that I don't want to say that I worry (because Jesus tells us not to) but I'm concerned about my daughters being married to Godly, serious men in this culture.

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## BuckeyeGirl (Jun 16, 2020)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I should add that I don't want to say that I worry (because Jesus tells us not to) but I'm concerned about my daughters being married to Godly, serious men in this culture.



It’s a legitimate concern. As I mentioned before, I know so many lovely, godly women in their late 20s/early 30s who want nothing more than marriage and children yet have no one to marry. I have a career - I’m a lawyer - but would give it up in less than a heartbeat if there were a godly man for me to marry. Sadly, there don’t seem to be any in sight.

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## Pergamum (Jun 16, 2020)

*Men are not always the problem - a soft push-back to the cry of "where are all the good men?":*

The quality men are there... they just don't like what most modern American women are offering.

Read this article: * Young men giving up on marriage: ‘Women aren’t women anymore’*

_"The problem? This new phenomenon has changed the dance between men and women,” Venker wrote. With feminism pushing them out of their traditional role of breadwinner, protector and provider – and divorce laws increasingly creating a dangerously precarious financial prospect for the men cut loose from marriage – men are simply no longer finding any benefit in it."_

--
I'd like to challenge the modern false trope of the problem being the men who are "man-children".... in these churches. Effeminate pastors with soft hands love to tell young men to "man up". This typifies most evangelical pastors. This is why many men don't want to go to church. It is gyno-centric and caters to womenly virtues. They are sick of the feminine culture.

An example: Mother's Day becomes an unqualified celebration of all mothers (last I checked though, even the dumbest of women can usually get pregnant...it is no special skill, though some seem well-practiced at it), and yet Father's Day becomes an occasion to talk sternly to men about "manning up" (often by doing dishes or changing diapers or some other feminine domestic task traditionally done by women...an equal share of domestic housework being the definition of "love" towards the wife. Leadership and provision is not enough nowadays, I guess, pity those men who worked the coal mines to bring home food and then sat inertly at night and rested without jumping into laundry).

Add this to popular culture. Every tv dad is portrayed as an idiot. Every Disney movie is a hard-working man made to feel guilt because he busts his butt trying to provide for a family and so struggles to find time with the kids. We men are tired of "strong independent women" and "If you can't handle me at my worst, then you don't deserve me at my best" garbage.

And sure...many women in church will CLAIM they will "submit" to their husbands once they are married...as long as she agrees to submit. She submits when she wants to. And if she will not, it must be some fault of the man's. She'll submit as long as she finds the man worthy enough to submit to. Practically this means that even church women do what they want in many cases. There are 1,001 qualifications to this type of "submission" and the tired reminder is then brought forth that the bible also says for all Christians to "submit to one another" (somehow nullifying wifely submission).

Many of the single women in churches seem sweet on the outside but they harbor the seeds of Western feminism within their bosoms even when they deny it, or have deep-seated problems and baggage, and so men don't want to put in the effort of shackling himself to a lifetime of crazy. Divorce is a losing proposition for men and they are wise to vet their prospects very very carefully.

Sitting quietly for an hour or two a week in the pew a good wife does not make.

Women initiate about 70% of all divorces and some say this number rises to about 90% in cases of college-educated women. Men are smart to be VERY careful about mate selection or committal.

So the cry of "Where are all the good men!" is idiotic. The real cry is, "Where are all the decent girls!" But of course, If we men were ever to say something like "Men prefer debt-free virgins without tattoos" to marry...then the hate-mail is sure to come and we'd be lynched.

Meanwhile, I've seen time and again white men from the West marrying poorer Asian women in my country of service and almost always these are very happy unions and the women don't usually balloon up to 300 pounds in their 30s either, nor hen-peck their husbands. Plus, these men usually marry quiet women 10-15 years their younger. So the average mouthy American woman just cannot compete. Even the churchy ones.

As we have seen from many American woman bloggers lately, they are always full of opinions and spend their days correcting men online. Stay away from any "theology experts" that are women for sure from America. If she isn't talking about how to keep the home, raise the kids, or keep their husband happy, then run far away!  Her main concern ought to be the care of her own home...not in undoing the Patriarchy!

One good case in point is the opinionated girl who wrote the Girl Wash Your Face book. Dishing out advice to millions of women...and then..BAM.... A Faceook announcement of her upcoming divorce just came out last week. But she'll still profit from the book sales, I am sure. I am sure it is not her fault though. It never is. She was not a quiet keeper at home it seems. And that is the problem with many American women.

So throw your tomatoes at me, now.

So I ask: where are all the good American women! The landscape is pretty depressing, to say the least.

So my solution is to teach women to be feminine again. Teach them to bring something to the table. Teach them not to be competitors but helpmeets. Teach them true submission rather than qualified submission as long as she agrees with her husband. A vigorous commitment to cooking and cleaning and frequently ravishing her husband with wife-initiated physical affection are all good selling points as well. Marriage is an economic exchange and both parties come to the table with expectations. And marriage is simply a bad deal with most American girls in 2020. _Caveat emptor_

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## Wretched Man (Jun 16, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> And sure...many women in church will CLAIM they will "submit" to their husbands once they are married...as long as she agrees to submit. She submits when she wants to. And if she will not, it must be some fault of the man's. She'll submit as long as she finds the man worthy enough to submit to. Practically this means that even church women do what they want in many cases. There are 1,001 qualifications to this type of "submission" and the tired reminder is then brought forth that the bible also says for all Christians to "submit to one another" (somehow nullifying wifely submission).


Yup.


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## Andrew35 (Jun 16, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> *Men are not always the problem - a soft push-back to the cry of "where are all the good men?":*
> 
> The quality men are there... they just don't like what most modern American women are offering.
> 
> ...


Extremely offensive!

...and mostly true.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Andrew35 (Jun 16, 2020)

There's some really weird data on this I've seen, btw, that I can't track down at the moment.

If I'm getting it right, it was essentially that white, Western men (North American research) have higher rates of marital success with women of other cultures and races, as opposed to white, Western women. Surprisingly enough, this even extends particularly to marriages with African-American women. These relationships tend to be highly successful.

White western women tend to be _less_ successful in mixed relationships than with their corresponding males.

Make of that what you will.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 16, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> There's some really weird data on this I've seen, btw, that I can't track down at the moment.
> 
> If I'm getting it right, it was essentially that white, Western men (North American research) have higher rates of marital success with women of other cultures and races, as opposed to white, Western women. Surprisingly enough, this even extends particularly to marriages with African-American women. These relationships tend to be highly successful.
> 
> ...


I do remember reading that years back but had forgotten.


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## Wretched Man (Jun 16, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> *Men are not always the problem - a soft push-back to the cry of "where are all the good men?":*
> 
> The quality men are there... they just don't like what most modern American women are offering.
> 
> ...


Another thing I might add is all the princess fairy tail nonsense young girls are filled with. They grow up reading (or watching) about all these princesses in distress who end up meeting the man of their dreams, who dashes in and sweeps them off their feet. And the caveat moral to all these stories is somehow they should expect the same thing will happen to them.

Then they grow up to become disappointed because their prince in shining armor riding a white horse while doing the dishes and hand picking roses doesn’t exist. Thus every man falls short.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BuckeyeGirl (Jun 16, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> *Men are not always the problem - a soft push-back to the cry of "where are all the good men?":*
> 
> The quality men are there... they just don't like what most modern American women are offering.
> 
> ...



You make some thought-provoking points, but please don’t make the mistake of placing all of the blame on women. I have certainly come across self-proclaimed feminists in the church. And I know how easy it is to unwittingly absorb some feministic points of view - I certainly have over the years. However, isn’t any attempt to portray one sex as more to blame than the other imbalanced? 

Just as there are women within the church with a rebellious, me-first attitude, there are men within the church driven more by concerns about appearance than character. I can’t tell you how often I have seen men overlook meek, godly women of character who would make admirable wives and mothers in favor of vivacious blondes with less Christian maturity. Attraction is critical in a marriage, but surely something is wrong when men are routinely only attracted to one particular “type.”

I think the reality is that both sexes are prone to sins that make finding a good and godly spouse challenging.

For the record, though, when I’ve referred to the scarcity of godly men, I really am not exaggerating. It’s not that I know lots of Christian men but think they are defective. It’s that there are significantly fewer men in the churches I’m exposed to than women. From what I’ve heard, this is a common problem across different parts of the country.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Pergamum (Jun 16, 2020)

BuckeyeGirl said:


> You make some thought-provoking points, but please don’t make the mistake of placing all of the blame on women. I have certainly come across self-proclaimed feminists in the church. And I know how easy it is to unwittingly absorb some feministic points of view - I certainly have over the years. However, isn’t any attempt to portray one sex as more to blame than the other imbalanced?
> 
> Just as there are women within the church with a rebellious, me-first attitude, there are men within the church driven more by concerns about appearance than character. I can’t tell you how often I have seen men overlook meek, godly women of character who would make admirable wives and mothers in favor of vivacious blondes with less Christian maturity. Attraction is critical in a marriage, but surely something is wrong when men are routinely only attracted to one particular “type.”
> 
> ...



Best wishes on your search.

I don't think you are wrong about your comment on the mismatch in most churches. More females than males attend church regularly. This says nothing about the quality of the women...but it does speak to the quantity (number of choices available).

And yes, you are right, many church men are weak and not dominant and confident and these don't make attractive matches for most women. Sorry. I've met so many geeky homeschooled boys in girly bow-ties and with a dress code given from Bill Gothard that I want to puke (yes, bow-ties make men all look dorky, like Orville Riddenbacher).

And yes, you are right...I know plenty of scummy men (and I've not been perfect either).

About attraction: It is natural and biological largely. Men want youth and beauty over education. These things are biological and largely universal (beauty is not merely in the eye of the beholder, some biological markers are pretty universal. For example, tall or strong men are preferred by women as well as masculine features, etc, and a sloppy short fat man is going to have trouble finding a spouse unless he is rich. And for women, a good waist-to-hip ratio and long hair and big clear eyes and lips are attractive in most cultures). Call it vanity. But people are attracted to beauty, but many churches act as if this is no concern at all or it is ungodly if we mention the need for physical attraction.

Yes, you are right, both men and women are highly defective.

I will grant your point even further. In Asia here, many many Asian women ask me to set them up with Western men because beating your wife is a common cultural trait (even among Christians here). It is not merely trying to be a gold-digger or marry a richer Westerner, but many of these Christian girls in Indonesia don't want to be slapped at least occasionally by their husbands. I know evangelists and pastors who have beaten their wives. The churches almost always do nothing. I must even admit that in the poor regions I have served, the women have it far rougher than the men and the men have by far been the worse sinners and I pity the poor tribal women. I have a harder time pitying American women, though. But I do admit your comment is true...there are less fish to choose from in churches for a single woman than a single man. 

So, I actually grant almost all of your points as true. You did say you were a lawyer, right?  God bless and I hope it goes well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## B.L. (Jun 17, 2020)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I should add that I don't want to say that I worry (because Jesus tells us not to) but I'm concerned about my daughters being married to Godly, serious men in this culture.



I hear this concern among all of my friends with daughters entering adulthood and when I look around today it most certainly will be one of my concerns for my own daughter tomorrow. One friend of mine, who is blessed with five daughters, has even half-jokingly discussed the possibility of arranged marriages brokered among parents. 

If there is in fact a shortage of godly young men I think the blame lays in large part at the feet of us fathers.


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