# Is Young, Restless, and Reformed still a thing?



## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

Do people still call themselves YRR or do they just go by the Gospel Coalition now?


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## Jack K (May 9, 2020)

Was it ever much of a thing to self-identify as YRR? I don't think so. My sense is that in the years following the publication of the book by that title, a lot of people started using YRR to speak of the movement as a whole but few people used that moniker to describe who they were personally. Most simply described themselves as "Reformed," as they'd already been doing for several years by the time the book was published.

My experience is that a lot of that crowd still call themselves "Reformed." It's an easy-to-use descriptor. Others, as you suggest, identify more specifically with one of the well-known ministries or pastors who share those broad distinctives: not only Gospel Coalition, but sometimes IX Marks or Acts 29, or they will even identify as being a follower of a particular website or podcast, as in, "I'm a 'Doctrine & Devotion' guy." The academics who want to be more precise tend to prefer the label "New Calvinism," but that one doesn't seem to have caught on with the rank and file.

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## retroGRAD3 (May 9, 2020)

The Gospel Coalition appears to be a complete train wreck at this point unfortunately.

Reactions: Like 5 | Amen 1


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## Seeking_Thy_Kingdom (May 9, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The Gospel Coalition appears to be a complete train wreck at this point unfortunately.


I visited TGC yesterday out of habit. The top story was about how singing is literally the worse thing ever, like, really, the worse.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

I guess I consider YRR to be roughly equivalent to New Calvinism, which claims to hold to TULIP yet rejects Calvin's view of church govt, civil govt, the Lord's Supper, Baptism, everything else.


Seeking_Thy_Kingdom said:


> I visited TGC yesterday out of habit. The top story was about how singing is literally the worse thing ever, like, really, the worse.



Groan. Now I have to go look at it.


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## Seeking_Thy_Kingdom (May 9, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Groan. Now I have to go look at it.


Be sure to also read the follow up article “10 ways not to die during congregational singing” and “5 steps to humming hymns”

Reactions: Funny 2


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

Seeking_Thy_Kingdom said:


> Be sure to also read the follow up article “10 ways not to die during congregational singing” and “5 steps to humming hymns”


I hate myself now.

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## W.C. Dean (May 9, 2020)

My opinion of New Calvinism is probably softer than others. This lecture from Rev. Wood of the FCC encouraged me to not be overly critical. Truthfully many have come into a better understanding of Reformed theology through New Calvinism. I was personally assisted by TGC when I was brand new to predestination. I am perhaps not as soft as Rev. Wood is though. 









New Calvinism


Rev Harry Woods | Partick Free Church of Scotland (Cont)




www.sermonaudio.com





As for their articles about humming and not singing, no wonder they don't want to sing! I wouldn't sing some of the stuff that is popular in those churches, EP or not!

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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> My opinion of New Calvinism is probably softer than others. This lecture from Rev. Wood of the FCC encouraged me to not be overly critical. Truthfully many have come into a better understanding of Reformed theology through New Calvinism. I was personally assisted by TGC when I was brand new to predestination. I am perhaps not as soft as Rev. Wood is though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If they introduce people to predestination, I suppose that's good. The deal is that they introduce it to them divorced and abstracted from what God teaches about the covenants, sacraments, etc. And their politics is basically Peak-Level Karen. Politically, they exist to soothe the consciences of the elites.

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## A.Joseph (May 9, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I hate myself now.


Man, I would have been better off revisiting P&P.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> Man, I would have been better off revisiting P&P.



The Gospel Industrial Complex will have you begging for P&P


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## A.Joseph (May 9, 2020)

Big Eva 

Interesting take, https://heidelblog.net/2018/08/trueman-what-big-eva-is-and-why-it-matters-to-reformed-churches/

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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

A.Joseph said:


> Big Eva
> 
> Interesting take, https://heidelblog.net/2018/08/trueman-what-big-eva-is-and-why-it-matters-to-reformed-churches/



Yep. Essence of the problem right there.


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## Chad Hutson (May 9, 2020)

Yeah, I don't know. Probably not hip enough now. I'm glad I've never had an impulse to be hip or cool or edgy. I'm just a Christian. Call it Reformed or Calvinistic or what you will. I just call it Christianity.


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## JM (May 9, 2020)

I follow Dr. Jordan B. Cooper's youtube/podcasts and find his work very helpful. Here is a Lutheran understanding of "what happened to" the YRR. 






I know a handful of people that have converted to Romanism and Orthodoxy and two who are now making the move into Romanism and Orthodoxy. They said if a conservative Anglican or Lutheran parish existed in our area they wouldn't need to go that far...


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## W.C. Dean (May 9, 2020)

Yeah I've never understood but there seems to be an epidemic of young Reformed men travelling to EO or RCC. Does anyone know of any reasons for this? Sorry also a bit off topic. Does it relate to New Calvinism? Calvinism without roots?


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## ZackF (May 9, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> Yeah I've never understood but there seems to be an epidemic of young Reformed men travelling to EO or RCC. Does anyone know of any reasons for this? Sorry also a bit off topic. Does it relate to New Calvinism? Calvinism without roots?


Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.

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## JM (May 9, 2020)

ZackF said:


> Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.



A lot of truth to the above but I would add converts also have a real belief in transubstantiation. They believe John 6 teaches that in light of the writings of the early church. 

This is a quote often cited, "They [the Docetists, early Christological heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (_Letter to the Smyrnaeans _6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). 

Another reason is the real belief in the papacy. Upon this Rock by Steve Ray has had a big impact on the Christians I know who have converted. It seems that once a core Roman belief like transubstantiation or the papacy is held it's all over. 

In the case of Orthodoxy it's the mystery, the worship, the liturgy. I have to admit that I love the Book of Common Prayer liturgy and will stop by the local Anglican parish from time to time. The BCP has the Great Litany and I've used it often when I can't pray so I can attest to a weak faith at times that is encouraged by liturgy. 






I have 5 immediate drawbacks to liturgy but for the most part I agree with Dr. Cooper and understand why real Christians seek it out. 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm

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## ZackF (May 9, 2020)

JM said:


> A lot of truth to the above but I would add converts also have a real belief in transubstantiation. They believe John 6 teaches that in light of the writings of the early church.
> 
> 
> 
> jm


Believe me I know. That old wrinkled t-shirt is in my drawer. I was once an avid poster on Steve Rays forums in the early/mid 2000s.


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## JM (May 9, 2020)

ZackF said:


> Believe me I know. That old wrinkled t-shirt is in my drawer. I was once an avid poster on Steve Rays forums in the early/mid 2000s.


"fools gold" is a good way to put it. James White has mentioned that he knows people who converted only to regret it 10 years down the road. 

If only Anglicanism and Lutheranism was stable, confessional and widespread. You can almost never find all three in my parish. 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

ZackF said:


> Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.



Something like that. There is a pattern among the YRR types to "jump to another tradition" simply because they don't have a good foundation in Reformed theology. When you reduce all of theology to 5 Points and a Passion conference, what can you expect?

It's not a lot, though, simply because there aren't that many people jumping, despite what the blogs say. 

And people who read Chesterton and the middle ages are larping. I like to ask, "Which Middle Ages?" The pornocracy of the 9th century? Or do we just mean Thomas Aquinas (whose views weren't always welcome)? 

And Chesterton was simply an inferior theologian. Even legitimate Thomist scholars ridicule his book on Thomas.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

JM said:


> The BCP has the Great Litany and I've used it often when I can't pray so I can attest to a weak faith at times that is encouraged by liturgy.



The BCP is probably the 3rd finest moment in the English language. There is nothing wrong with using those prayers. It's better to use a template from the BCP than to try to muscle up a good prayer extempore (which will often be repetition itself).

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## W.C. Dean (May 9, 2020)

ZackF said:


> Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.


 Well I certainly wasn't referring to just a few pastors. I've heard of quite a few young men (pastors or not) traveling into EO. Probably not an epidemic. I apologize for over-exaggeration.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> Well I certainly wasn't referring to just a few pastors. I've heard of quite a few young men (pastors or not) traveling into EO. Probably not an epidemic. I apologize for over-exaggeration.



EO online (all of whom are Western converts) loudly proclaim how Reformed pastors are joining daily. It's so irritating, not least because it is false.


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## ZackF (May 9, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Something like that. There is a pattern among the YRR types to "jump to another tradition" simply because they don't have a good foundation in Reformed theology. When you reduce all of theology to 5 Points and a Passion conference, what can you expect?
> 
> It's not a lot, though, simply because there aren't that many people jumping, despite what the blogs say.
> 
> ...


Exactly. You make good points. The pornocray. What bout Avignon "papacy". How many popes? 

Chesterton was a more of a journalist (a pretty good one) who wrote a couple of biographical sketches but could be quite an ignoramus. Some of his quotes on Calvinism are horrible. He could turn a phrase though. I like his Fr. Brown mysteries. My point is that he's admired by larpers today. 

My point was more about how modern, conservative and traditional Catholics survive. It is largely on a diet of the past. Yes we admire Calvin and the Puritans but we are fed a hearty meal weekly on preaching from godly pastors. Many examples exist on this board.

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## ZackF (May 9, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> EO online (all of whom are Western converts) loudly proclaim how Reformed pastors are joining daily. It's so irritating, not least because it is false.


On the RC side, I imagine an interesting project would be to comb Marcus Grodi's "coming home network" for pastors who come from a Reformed( or to be generous Reformedish) backgrounds and multiply it by say 5 to create a numerator. Use a denominator from an estimate of total pastors from NAPARC plus Reformed/Reformedish Baptist and other denominations reasonably included. I still say that fatality rate, to use a timely metaphor, would be low.


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## retroGRAD3 (May 10, 2020)

Seeking_Thy_Kingdom said:


> I visited TGC yesterday out of habit. The top story was about how singing is literally the worse thing ever, like, really, the worse.



Indeed, it is really sad where that organization has gone.


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 10, 2020)

I am guessing that no-one identifies as YRR anymore, because most of those who originally did are now middle-aged.

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## Smeagol (May 10, 2020)

I don’t hear the title much anymore, nor do I ever remember it being a self-associated badge of honor. I was probably in the crowd some when my former SBC church transitioned from Arminian thinking to Calvinistic regarding salvation. Looking back we were super puffed up and pumped to be the only “predestination” preaching church in town, yet we (including myself) were grossly ignorant in claiming to be “reformed baptist” regarding the fuller picture of what it means to be reformed. The same church is still close to my home (a literal stones-throw since we moved). They are still 5-pointers and Elder-led. I think they are a mixed bag on the 3-fold division of the Law and are unstudied on the RPW. However, I recently heard they are in-discussion on studying and adopting the 1689 LBC as their Doctrinal Subscription. A segment of their body also rejects the man-made church calendar.

So while I do not agree with the movement in hindsight, it served to place me where I am today (An Original Westministerian) and it at least has seemed to serve to move a former SBC Stereotype congregation towards historic baptist confessionalism.

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## Seeking_Thy_Kingdom (May 10, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I am guessing that no-one identifies as YRR anymore, because most of those who originally did are now middle-aged.


That’s true enough, the YRR movement was what introduced me to Calvinism. Never truly identified with it though and now I’m just middle aged, grumpy and reformed.

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## TooManySystematics (May 10, 2020)

When I became a Christian I was lucky enough to have been brought into the faith through a well read Presbyterian (He quickly put R.L. Dabney into my hands if that tells you anything!) so I was blessed to have been able to skip the awkward and somewhat cringey "YRR" stage a lot of people went through.

That being said, I can't say that it hasn't affected me or my church either. All of the young people know who John Piper, John MacArthur, and R.C Sproul are (I know he was a Presbyterian, but he was still an influencer in the movement). Many of them might even consider them to be authorities on what it means to be "Reformed". I expect that the movement (or the aftershocks of it) it will continue to affect us for some time. I suspect that mine is not the only church in NAPARC to be like this.

I think one major positive to have come out of the movement was that it made more confessional people and churches aware of each other. Podcasting and blogging was a big thing that spread the YRR, and I think that those tools are likewise helping the confessional community to find each other. I as a member of the URC currently attend a CanRC listen to a podcast from an OPC pastor and read a blog from a PCA minister. It might be an indirect positive, but its a positive nevertheless.

A massive negative however has been a general loosening of the term Reformed. Although some people are struggling to keep a tight leash on the term, I think that the battle has already been lost. When I hear a friend of mine referring to himself as a "Reformed Pentecostal", or when I see articles entitled: "Meet a Reformed Arminian" (https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/meet-a-reformed-arminian/), I think the term has become so wide, so metamorphic, so general, that it no longer serves to define anything. That's tragic, because no we can't identify each other through that term anymore.

Just my


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## W.C. Dean (May 10, 2020)

TooManySystematics said:


> When I became a Christian I was lucky enough to have been brought into the faith through a well read Presbyterian (He quickly put R.L. Dabney into my hands if that tells you anything!) so I was blessed to have been able to skip the awkward and somewhat cringey "YRR" stage a lot of people went through.
> 
> That being said, I can't say that it hasn't affected me or my church either. All of the young people know who John Piper, John MacArthur, and R.C Sproul are (I know he was a Presbyterian, but he was still an influencer in the movement). Many of them might even consider them to be "Reformed". I expect that the movement (or the aftershocks of it) it will continue to affect us for some time. I suspect that mine is not the only church in NAPARC to be like this.
> 
> ...



I experienced something similar. When I first became a predestinarian there was a very short period of time where I wished to "enlighten" every Christian I came across and my pastor humbled me and nipped my rude attitude in the bud. I owe him for sparing me for months, or potentially years of struggling to get my mind past those five points. However, I have benefited some from John Piper when I was new to this all, and I still enjoy his biographical works. (I don't consider him a heretic either). R.C. Sproul was and continues to be a huge benefit for me and my mother. I differ from him on a few points, some quite important, but nothing that ever makes me want to stop listening to him. His lectures on other worldviews and philosophies have been immensely helpful to me.

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## ArminianOnceWas (May 10, 2020)

Unfortunately, I was unable to grow a cool enough beard to be able to join.

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## py3ak (May 10, 2020)

It sounds like the young got old, and the restless either settled down or waltzed their way to something different.

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## Andrew35 (May 10, 2020)

py3ak said:


> It sounds like the young got old, and the restless either settled down or waltzed their way to something different.


Probably the best summary of the movement's, umm... _movement_ that I've read.


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## JM (May 10, 2020)

TooManySystematics said:


> When I became a Christian I was lucky enough to have been brought into the faith through a well read Presbyterian (He quickly put R.L. Dabney into my hands if that tells you anything!) so I was blessed to have been able to skip the awkward and somewhat cringey "YRR" stage a lot of people went through.
> 
> That being said, I can't say that it hasn't affected me or my church either. All of the young people know who John Piper, John MacArthur, and R.C Sproul are (I know he was a Presbyterian, but he was still an influencer in the movement). Many of them might even consider them to be authorities on what it means to be "Reformed". I expect that the movement (or the aftershocks of it) it will continue to affect us for some time. I suspect that mine is not the only church in NAPARC to be like this.
> 
> ...


I'm just down the road from you in Chatham Ontario.


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## Susan777 (May 10, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> If they introduce people to predestination, I suppose that's good. The deal is that they introduce it to them divorced and abstracted from what God teaches about the covenants, sacraments, etc. And their politics is basically Peak-Level Karen. Politically, they exist to soothe the consciences of the elites.


“Peak-level Karen”. Love it!

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## ZackF (May 10, 2020)

Susan777 said:


> “Peak-level Karen”. Love it!


It is fun and fortuitous on how a came to know what a "Karen" was a few weeks ago. Until then I'd been oblivious to the meme. 

I am a call center supervisor. So when someone wants to speak a supervisor, CEO, manager, boss or "someone else", that's me. One of the representative said, "hey Zack, are you busy? I have a Karen on the line." I fully expected when the account information popped on my screen to see the name Karen. It wasn't and so I asked the customer her name and went on from there. A few weeks later in my YouTube feed a I saw a headline of a video poking fun at a female politician that was labeling "Karen" offensive and sexist. After watching that video and doing some googling I remembered my first encounter with "Karen" as a meme was actually someone wanting to speak with the manager. I'm grateful I didn't call her Karen.

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## JM (May 10, 2020)

Flame, former Calvinistic rapper, claims there is a loveless misuse of the Law in Reformed theology. Reformed Christians are looking inward for works/fruit instead of looking to Christ extra nos. Cooper seems to agree and they both cite this as one reason they both left YRR.


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## Andrew35 (May 10, 2020)

JM said:


> Flame, former Calvinistic rapper, claims there is a loveless misuse of the Law in Reformed theology. Reformed Christians are looking inward for works/fruit instead of looking to Christ extra nos. Cooper seems to agree and they both cite this as one reason they both left YRR.


Is Lutheranism also not without its Pietists? Grass-is-greener syndrome.

Much of the YRR exodus (though of course not all) may be explained by a premature and imperfect assimilation of Reformed thought. Cooper himself basically says as much in his video.

If we had a YSL (Young, Scatological, and Lutheran) movement, I expect we'd see a parallel phenomenon.


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## JM (May 11, 2020)

Jay Dyer is an outspoken proponent of Orthodoxy. Former Reformed Christian moved to Catholicism and finally Orthodoxy. He changes the underlying presuppositions of West thought and blames the Enlightenment for ruining Catholicism and creating Protestantism. He cites the creation of the canon as one of the reasons he left Protestantism and that is one I've heard most often.


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## RamistThomist (May 11, 2020)

JM said:


> Jay Dyer is an outspoken proponent of Orthodoxy. Former Reformed Christian moved to Catholicism and finally Orthodoxy. He changes the underlying presuppositions of West thought and blames the Enlightenment for ruining Catholicism and creating Protestantism. He cites the creation of the canon as one of the reasons he left Protestantism and that is one I've heard most often.



I've known Jay since 2008. He is mentally and emotionally unstable. He has apostasized from and joined every form of Christianity. I've dealt with him a few times.








Day Jyer rebutted on refuting Protestantism


He’s been using these arguments for years. I try to avoid these discussions because of how he interacts with other human beings. Some of his spazzing is funny, sometimes it is not. I did ea…




tentsofshem.wordpress.com












On debates and dialogue


I’m fairly good on not blogging about the latest blow up on social media. This post isn’t important in the grand scheme, though it may serve as the “Suburban Agrarian Manifesto.&…




tentsofshem.wordpress.com












Inspiring Philosophy - Michael Jones


My debate with Jay Dyer has been called off. Instead of me trying to tell you what happened we agreed to post the conversation so all can see what happened this morning.




www.facebook.com

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## JM (May 11, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've known Jay since 2008. He is mentally and emotionally unstable. He has apostasized from and joined every form of Christianity. I've dealt with him a few times.


I got that from listening to his podcast episodes. Thank you for the links!


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## RamistThomist (May 11, 2020)

JM said:


> I got that from listening to his podcast episodes. Thank you for the links!



I will say this about him. If someone reduces the Reformed faith to 5 Points, which usually just means "how to respond to my Methodist cousin," then Jay's cheat sheet arguments will catch him with his pants down. Now Jay hasn't read any of the scholarly literature on Rome, Protestantism, or even EO. He stole most of his arguments from Perry Robinson and Joseph Farrell. He spent a decade perfecting them. And he is a good speaker, which seems to give him an edge in debate.

But if you force him to meet in a neutral forum that is heavily moderated by a neutral party, he loses all of his advantages.

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## Jack K (May 11, 2020)

The YRR movement has its shortcomings, for sure, but if we're thinking beyond the use of the label and are going to critique the movement itself, we ought to acknowledge some positives. Where the movement has made inroads, it has brought some healthy improvements to no small number of churches. We can see it in the mindset of young people today who have grown up in YRR-influenced churches. Here's some of what we see in those young people:

1. Calvinism is the new default. It is no longer hard to find a Baptist or non-denominational church that is Calvinist. Today, every major city in America (and many small cities) has such churches. And even in churches that remain Arminian or noncommittal, Calvinism has often made inroads or is becoming less vilified.

2. As Calvinism (the true gospel) has taken root, we should not be surprised that a focus on the gospel has grown. "Gospel-centered" is not just a catchphrase with this new generation. Those who have grown up under YRR influence expect to see Christ and the gospel when they study the Scriptures—in fact, they demand it. They insist on that context.

3. Speaking of context, they care about context and depth in their Bible study. Their approach to the Bible is much healthier than that of shallow evangelicalism, where Scripture is treated more as a collection of proof-texts or motivational-poster fodder.

4. These YRR-influenced young people are also interested in the church's history, and especially in the Puritan era. They are eager to move beyond the ignorance of history that has marked wider evangelicalism for decades. They are consuming historical and Puritan (or Puritan-influenced) books, podcasts, blogs, sermons, etc. in quantities that would have been unthinkable twenty years ago. True, their acceptance of this material is spotty. They embrace some of it while remaining ignorant, cold, or undecided about other parts. But the overall impact is to give these truths a new hearing and renewed awareness. First they say, "Maybe our worship shouldn't be a free-for-all." Next they say, "I think our church should be elder-led." After a decade or so of that, they start to say, "Maybe we ought to officially ascribe to the London 1689." So while the Reformed purists chide them (or push them away!) for not being totally Reformed immediately, some are actually learning a lot from history and moving in good directions fairly quickly. As long as they keep reading the Puritans, that will keep happening.

5. The church has new importance to them. They see the need to push back against the individualism that has increasingly marked American evangelicalism. Connected to this, they are interested in holistic discipleship and real evangelism rather than the cheap "decision for Christ" and mass-appeal mindsets that dominated past generations. Although they may still struggle with this, they understand the need to be churchmen rather than marketers.

The movement is still just a subset of American evangelicalism, but in many ways it is a healthy influence. We should be encouraging what is good about it.

(By the way, these YRR-influenced churches are where I tend to end up giving seminars and such. I am too serious and gospel-pounding for the shallow or attractional-model evangelicals, and my Reformed credentials are not pure enough for the Thoroughly Reformed. But I share a lot of common ground with the New Calvinists, despite the fact they seem like such youngsters to me. I happily admit to having a soft spot for them.)

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## W.C. Dean (May 11, 2020)

Jack K said:


> The YRR movement has its shortcomings, for sure, but if we're thinking beyond the use of the label and are going to critique the movement itself, we ought to acknowledge some positives. Where the movement has made inroads, it has brought some healthy improvements to no small number of churches. We can see it in the mindset of young people today who have grown up in YRR-influenced churches. Here's some of what we see in those young people:
> 
> 1. Calvinism is the new default. It is no longer hard to find a Baptist or non-denominational church that is Calvinist. Today, every major city in America (and many small cities) has such churches. And even in churches that remain Arminian or noncommittal, Calvinism has often made inroads or is becoming less vilified.
> 
> ...



As I mentioned previously, the FCS(C) minister Harry Wood has an excellent lecture on the positives of the movement, which I commend to everyone reading this. I agree with your 5 points (5 points, was that on purpose?).


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## retroGRAD3 (May 12, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've known Jay since 2008. He is mentally and emotionally unstable. He has apostasized from and joined every form of Christianity. I've dealt with him a few times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your summary and info on Jay is well founded. Although, you don't even really have to look hard to see that Jay is a complete jerk to almost everyone he interacts with. He literally calls people "retards" as an argument in most interactions with people he disagrees with. Unfortunately, as protestants, we also have some characters...cough...pulput and pen...cough.

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## Jonathan95 (May 12, 2020)

Jack K said:


> The YRR movement has its shortcomings, for sure, but if we're thinking beyond the use of the label and are going to critique the movement itself, we ought to acknowledge some positives. Where the movement has made inroads, it has brought some healthy improvements to no small number of churches. We can see it in the mindset of young people today who have grown up in YRR-influenced churches. Here's some of what we see in those young people:
> 
> 1. Calvinism is the new default. It is no longer hard to find a Baptist or non-denominational church that is Calvinist. Today, every major city in America (and many small cities) has such churches. And even in churches that remain Arminian or noncommittal, Calvinism has often made inroads or is becoming less vilified.
> 
> ...



I've only been a member of two churches. Both fall into the YRR category. Many of the positives that you have described have also been a blessing to me in my following after the Lord these past 6 years.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 12, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Something like that. There is a pattern among the YRR types to "jump to another tradition" simply because they don't have a good foundation in Reformed theology. When you reduce all of theology to 5 Points and a Passion conference, what can you expect?



I watched a few friends jump from 'new thing' to the 'next new thing' over the years. This pretty much nails it down. I remember reading someone saying years ago that reducing reformed theology to just the five points is the equivalent of playing in the sand on the beach while ignoring the ocean in front of you. I've preferred the image of playing on the front porch, maybe the yard and maybe the right inside the front door while ignoring the rest of the house.

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## Seeking_Thy_Kingdom (May 12, 2020)

BlackCalvinist said:


> I watched a few friends jump from 'new thing' to the 'next new thing' over the years. This pretty much nails it down. I remember reading someone saying years ago that reducing reformed theology to just the five points is the equivalent of playing in the sand on the beach while ignoring the ocean in front of you. I've preferred the image of playing on the front porch, maybe the yard and maybe the right inside the front door while ignoring the rest of the house.


This is also described in the beginning of “Letters to a Young Calvinist”. It says that reducing Calvinism or Reformed theology to just the 5 points is like walking into a beautiful mansion with many rooms, but never making it past the foyer. Ultimately, if you don’t go past the 5 points you will never reach the humility and God-centeredness it is meant to produce.

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## Pergamum (May 13, 2020)

Seeking_Thy_Kingdom said:


> I visited TGC yesterday out of habit. The top story was about how singing is literally the worse thing ever, like, really, the worse.


It IS... when I do it!


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## 149-deleted (May 13, 2020)

Stephen McAlpine had a great reflection on one of the downsides of the YRR movement: its being wedded to big personalities and how much it involved a certain subcultural element. I think that would be one part of it.

As many above have pointed out we can only be grateful to the Lord for the rediscovery of (portions of?) Reformed theology by many people. If there was a weakness I found personally, it was the lack of a confessional element. I think ML-J was very wise when he warned against work being done by movements not being under the church or a fellowship of churches, and these issues come up again and again when we deal with movements, which are always temporary.


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## Andrew35 (May 13, 2020)

joep said:


> Stephen McAlpine had a great reflection on one of the downsides of the YRR movement: its being wedded to big personalities and how much it involved a certain subcultural element....


Ironically, the same things took down the old, Fundamentalist movement, albeit in a drastically less cool form (Jack Hyles, KJB, and comb-overs anyone?).

Probably something to be said about repetitive patterns here.


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## KMK (May 13, 2020)

What is the difference between YRR and TR?


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## RamistThomist (May 13, 2020)

KMK said:


> What is the difference between YRR and TR?



For starters, ecclesiology. Usually the YRR guys are reduced to 5 Points. I'm not TR because of certain issues, but I am very churchly piety Calvinist (think Darryl Hart). I also have a higher view of the Confession.


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## Pilgrim (May 15, 2020)

KMK said:


> What is the difference between YRR and TR?


TR is basically shorthand for strict or full subscription to confessional standards. Most people in the PCA would consider this board to be TR on steroids.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 15, 2020)

Pilgrim said:


> TR is basically shorthand for strict or full subscription to confessional standards. Most people in the PCA would consider this board to be TR on steroids.


I wonder what those folks would think to know that some don't think PB is confessional enough.


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## Pilgrim (May 15, 2020)

They've basically taken over the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest "Protestant" organization in North America. So there's that.

I largely agree with what Jack K. posted. I'll add that dispensationalism is just about dead in the SBC, and what used to be called the "YRR" is a big reason why. Now, it may not be dead at the Southern Baptist church down the block that has a steeple and a white-haired pastor who always wears a suit, but it is dead almost anywhere you find a preacher who wears an untucked shirt and jeans. (These are the people who, if they grew up in Baptist or similar churches, had "Left Behind" crammed down their throats. Many of them have vomited it up.) If you want cessationist dispensationalism, and lean toward some kind of Calvinistic soteriology (whether moderate or strict) chances are you'll have to go to an independent Bible church, because most of the churches in the SBC that are still Dispensational tend to be led by strident anti-Calvinists. Or maybe independent fundamentalism if you can stomach that.

The continued rise of continuationism if not full blown charismaticism in these kinds of churches is another example of their influence. I'll say that the rise of continuationism among Calvinistic people definitely is. Among Calvinistic men who are now in their 60s, I think it was probably just about unheard of.

To some degree, the rise of multisite megachurches (and mega wannabees) also owes something to the YRR, although you tend to see that across the board these days. But the acceptance of it within "Calvinistic" circles is a YRR trait. I'm not sure who else besides Piper got into that before the rise of the "New Calvinism." Besides Mark Dever and John MacArthur, I'm not sure that there are many Calvinistic people in those circles who oppose it at this point.

Bottom line, their influence is all over the place if you know what to look for.

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## Pilgrim (May 15, 2020)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I wonder what those folks would think to know that some don't think PB is confessional enough.


They might be inclined to think that such people should be locked in a cage, especially if they are in their denomination.

A few years ago, I was shocked to see the open vitriol heaped upon a brother who is merely "Old School" by "progressive" (or whatever) PCA pastors. (I'm not sure that "liberal" is the right word. It's not our father's or grandfather's liberalism, to be sure. It is more subtle than that.) This was in response to him continuing to point out problems with this or that at GA. At one point, even a brother who is much more irenic told him he should just get out of the PCA instead of complaining about it for the rest of his life. (He has finally gotten out.) I'm not sure I've quite seen that kind of behavior among Baptists, or at least it didn't hit me the same way. It was clearly coordinated, because they all piled on at about the same time, and then they deleted their posts (this was on FB) not long afterwards. And I've seen that kind of thing happen more than once.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 15, 2020)

No doubt; I know who you are talking about. And I suspect it is of these progressive warrior children who are the ones I have received more than one account, who drop F bombs and other bad language outside of GA and presbytery meetings. It would not surprise me a bit that troll manners on social media equate to this. I'm not saying conservatives can't be profane but not of those who truly (not hypocritically) take a strong confessionally reformed view of doctrine and manners. 


Pilgrim said:


> They might be inclined to think that such people should be locked in a cage, especially if they are in their denomination.
> 
> A few years ago, I was shocked to see the open vitriol heaped upon a brother who is merely "Old School" by "progressive" (or whatever) PCA pastors. (I'm not sure that "liberal" is the right word. It's not our father's or grandfather's liberalism, to be sure. It is more subtle than that.) This was in response to him continuing to point out problems with this or that at GA. At one point, even a brother who is much more irenic told him he should just get out of the PCA instead of complaining about it for the rest of his life. (He has finally gotten out.) I'm not sure I've quite seen that kind of behavior among Baptists, or at least it didn't hit me the same way. It was clearly coordinated, because they all piled on at about the same time, and then they deleted their posts (this was on FB) not long afterwards. And I've seen that kind of thing happen more than once.


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## Pilgrim (May 15, 2020)

NaphtaliPress said:


> No doubt; I know who you are talking about. And I suspect it is of these progressive warrior children who are the ones I have received more than one account, who drop F bombs and other bad language outside of GA and presbytery meetings. It would not surprise me a bit that troll manners on social media equate to this. I'm not saying conservatives can't be profane but not of those who truly (not hypocritically) take a strong confessionally reformed view of doctrine and manners.



If it was just some young guys who got a little carried away or whatever, it would be one thing, although it is still not excusable. But the ringleaders seemed to be men in their 50s, if not older. It brings Q. 151 of the WLC to mind.

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