# Publically observed sins & rudeness: when to speak up?



## Tim (Nov 18, 2010)

I have recently been challenged to consider how I react to people that I come across in public. This week particularly, I have been faced with behavior that I think is unacceptable.

However, I also know that if you call people out on these things, you risk an escalating conflict. 

I am considering these verses:



> Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
> Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.



But it usually doesn't go well when you suggest that someone has done something _wrong_.

Example 1: you are in the supermarket and you see someone "sampling" nuts or grapes. You want to say, "That's stealing - that's unacceptable!" 

Example 2: you are walking or running down the street and someone's dog runs into you and trips you. The dog's master doesn't even offer a hint of apology. You want to say, "How rude! Not even an apology!"

Yes, there are more important things to worry about, but society used to restrain this sort of behavior. If a child was disrespectful to a stranger, he would hear "young man...never talk to an adult that way...." It's not like that anymore and I feel some responsibility to work for change.

Of course, I know that I must keep in mind the "log in one's own eye" exhortation.


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## Tim (Nov 18, 2010)

So, the question: do you ever confront people on an action that is clearly sinful or rude or inappropriate? How might one do this in a way that isn't perceived as "attacking"?


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## LawrenceU (Nov 18, 2010)

I do at times. It often depends upon what people are doing the behaviour and in what setting it takes place. At church I will correct children readily. I have also very carefully spoken to people about such things in other public locations. I deplore the lack of civility and manners that is becoming commonplace in today's society. Do be aware that you will be misunderstood by many and maligned by some.

I would refrain from saying anything at all if you are responding because of a personal affront and you are feeling hurt or slighted. That will come through and you will be perceived as petty and vindictive.


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## Scott1 (Nov 18, 2010)

Good questions.

Our standard is to first love God and second, like to it, love our neighbor.

We see rude, selfish, sometimes immoral behavior in word and deed everyday, and realize it more in ourselves as well.

I would tend to look at it from the standpoint of God having placed you in that circumstance. He appoints every circumstance, and our question is, "how can I glorify God most in this?"

A couple examples,

Having seen a young girl taking the Lord's Name in vain while trying to extricate a shopping cart, I smiled and said, "now let's not curse God..." and helped her remove the cart, keeping smiling and looking at her, then praying silently that it would make an impression on her.

Another, hearing a Moslem proselytizing a very confused high school age student, he was blatantly misrepresenting things about Christianity to do it. Yet I did not know either person and was only overhearing from a distance. I became very offended at what he was misrepresenting about Christianity and trying to lead to falsehood, but I just prayed. I didn't do anything else and went away feeling guilty I had not stood up and spoken. I told another person who goes to that place (a restaurant) about it and explained how obviously false this man was. But did nothing else.

I'm not sure I did our Lord's will in either case- but looking back, I did pray in both instances, and am at peace with that.

God has chosen to use us, in encounters great and small, to extend His Kingdom. That is something one becomes more aware of as one grows in Him, and for which one becomes more accountable for.

To whom much is given, much is required- while constantly depending on His mercy, grace and pardon.


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## KMK (Nov 18, 2010)

How do you demand moral behavior from those who do not believe in moral absolutes? I struggle with this as well. It seems to me that we should encourage others to receive the Gospel then morals will ordinarily follow.


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## jwithnell (Nov 18, 2010)

In some rudeness situations that directly affect me, I might kind of press my lips together and shake my head; it definitely carries the message, but I don't know if I guy can pull it off -- it's sort of a Mom thing.


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## puritan628 (Nov 18, 2010)

This semester I've been fortunate enough to talk to students in my face-to-face classes about moral standards, public behavior, and other topics that I can peripherally relate to communication. 

In that environment, I can ask outright, "If right and wrong are according to an individual (as many of them will assert at the beginning of the discussion), then how can any two people ever come to an agreement about what's right and what's wrong morally?" This causes them to think ... which I then challenge them with, "How is it that we, as a society, can agree that stealing and killing are wrong if it's up to the individual?" 

From there we can discuss public behavior (children running around in restaurants, people leaving dirty diapers in parking lots, screaming children in grocery stores) and understand that people who behave that way are not doing it to purposely irritate us or to purposely degrade the civility of our society. They simply don't know any better. THAT, as I have observed, is the root of the rudeness-in-public problem.

Keeping in mind that I live 10 miles north of the Texas-Mexico border, much of the rudeness that I perceive is culture-bound. A different culture can present unique perceptual challenges; we must keep in mind that another culture that behaves differently from ourselves may be perceived as inconsiderate to us but is not intended as inconsiderate by the "offender."

As I started, so will I finish. I count myself extremely fortunate that a) I grew up in a time when societal civility was common; so that b) I can then use my formal education to present and suggest appropriate public behavior practices to relatively large numbers of people.


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## TimV (Nov 18, 2010)

Tim where you are living if you didn't either kick or threaten to shoot the dog you would be marked as weak and trouble would come. There was a pacifist in our town. He wouldn't keep a gun, and he was regularly robbed and beaten up.


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## Andres (Nov 18, 2010)

KMK said:


> How do you demand moral behavior from those who do not believe in moral absolutes? I struggle with this as well. It seems to me that we should encourage others to receive the Gospel then morals will ordinarily follow.


 
I agree with Pastor Klein. If you are confronting strangers that you don't know anything about their background, you are most likely not going to be received well. On several occasions I have asked people to please be quiet during movies. They usually give me a dirty look or mumble something under their breath, but they also end up being quiet. I personally think you should have an established relationship before a rebuke will come across well. People need to know where you are coming from and that you are motivated by a love for Christ and people. Like Lawrence, I have no problem correcting the children at my church but when I do I truly believe they respect me because they know that I genuinely love them. They have seen me love them over the past few years and we are a church family. This is a big difference compared to some stranger in the grocery store. 
With that being said, I do think there are times when it okay to correct people's rude behavior. For example, I would have to speak up if anyone where to be rude to my wife.


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## au5t1n (Nov 18, 2010)

I have the same question regarding blasphemy. I once was helping a girl with a program in my C++ class and she got frustrated with the compiler and said, "Holy" followed by the f-word used as an adjective for "God." I didn't say anything, but recently I was reading Thomas Watson and he said something about how it's wrong not to have enough zeal for the Lord's name to speak up when it is misused, and that got me thinking about what the appropriate reaction is to situations like that. I am now convinced I should at least have said something. I like Scott's way of handling it.


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## rbcbob (Nov 18, 2010)

I would suggest that if there is a universal principle for the believer's response to public acts of sin that said principle will apply to the suburbs of Beverly Hills as well as the dark and dangerous streets of Trinidad and Tobago; the streets of London as well as the shanty towns in the Philippines.


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## Andres (Nov 18, 2010)

austinww said:


> I have the same question regarding blasphemy. I once was helping a girl with a program in my C++ class and she got frustrated with the compiler and said, "Holy" followed by the f-word used as an adjective for "God." I didn't say anything, but recently I was reading Thomas Watson and he said something about how it's wrong not to have enough zeal for the Lord's name to speak up when it is misused, and that got me thinking about what the appropriate reaction is to situations like that. I am now convinced I should at least have said something. I like Scott's way of handling it.


 
Excellent point brought up, Austin. I think this is a whole different ballgame. I think we should speak up in any situation when our God is blasphemed. And the good thing is, there is no doubt where one is coming from when they speak up in this situation. I think it can be as simple as saying, "you don't have to say that" or I have a friend who remarks, "why are you mad at God?" when people use His name in vain (they are usually upset). Many times this opens a door to share why it's not appropriate to say that.


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## Tripel (Nov 18, 2010)

I agree with those who say there needs to be some sort of established relationship before it's appropriate to rebuke someone. As for specifics:


I would never correct a child in public that I didn't know. That is definitely not my place. 
Lawrence makes a great point about children at church. It's a totally different situation if it is a covenant child, one whose parents that I vowed to help support in training and nurturing. And I would hope others in my church would do the same for my children, as they have vowed.
If I see someone eating fruit at the grocery store, I don't say anything. It's not my place.
If someone curses God while struggling with the shopping cart, I probably don't say anything. Primarily because I don't demand or expect to NOT hear such things living in a secular society. I do like Scott's suggestion of something like "well there's no need to curse God" which is a lighthearted way of addressing it without rebuke. Perhaps I have the wrong attitude about it, but I don't get offended by strangers who blaspheme God in public. Rather, I'm sad for them.

It's a good topic of conversation. My main point is that I don't want to impress on the public that I as a Christian I am consumed with the rules or the law. I don't want my only interaction with someone to be complaint and correction. If I had no intention of speaking to someone in the first place, I'm probably not going to speak up if I observe them breaking a rule.


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## Poimen (Nov 18, 2010)

A very difficult matter to be sure. I can only offer my advice from the one time I said something to someone: I was in a public bus and a young guy (probably older than me at that point) was swearing up a storm. It bothered me but instead of turning it into a personal confrontation I said "Excuse me, would you mind not swearing in public? There are children present." Now depending on who it is some couldn't care less but in this case he had enough civility to realize that young ears should not be exposed to what he was saying. 

My point is if you are going to confront people try to make it less about 'you and them' and more 'them and us'.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 18, 2010)

I was shocked, but did nothing the other day. It was 6:30 in the evening on a commuter train platform. A young man (17-20?) was relieving himself on the platform. This wasn't one of the homeless people in our city, but a suburban teen dressed in brand name clothing. This wasn't 2:30 AM, just after closing time, but during the diner hour. As businessmen and smartly dressed women hurried to their cars or to their connecting buses, no one said anything, and everyone pretended that it wasn't happening. I was one of them. I could try to justify myself by saying that a dozen of his friends were waiting for him 50 feet away, and that perhaps saying something would have resulted in an altercation, but really, how much lower and cruder can public behaviour become before people become involved?


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## Andres (Nov 18, 2010)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I was shocked, but did nothing the other day. It was 6:30 in the evening on a commuter train platform. A young man (17-20?) was relieving himself on the platform. This wasn't one of the homeless people in our city, but a suburban teen dressed in brand name clothing. This wasn't 2:30 AM, just after closing time, but during the diner hour. As businessmen and smartly dressed women hurried to their cars or to their connecting buses, no one said anything, and everyone pretended that it wasn't happening. I was one of them. I could try to justify myself by saying that a dozen of his friends were waiting for him 50 feet away, and that perhaps saying something would have resulted in an altercation, but really, how much lower and cruder can public behaviour become before people become involved?


 
in this situation you call the cops. Urinating in public is not only rude behavior, it's against the law.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 18, 2010)

Andres said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > I was shocked, but did nothing the other day. It was 6:30 in the evening on a commuter train platform. A young man (17-20?) was relieving himself on the platform. This wasn't one of the homeless people in our city, but a suburban teen dressed in brand name clothing. This wasn't 2:30 AM, just after closing time, but during the diner hour. As businessmen and smartly dressed women hurried to their cars or to their connecting buses, no one said anything, and everyone pretended that it wasn't happening. I was one of them. I could try to justify myself by saying that a dozen of his friends were waiting for him 50 feet away, and that perhaps saying something would have resulted in an altercation, but really, how much lower and cruder can public behaviour become before people become involved?
> ...


 
I suppose there's merit in a police report. I suspect that a police officer wouldn't have been dispatched, and that even if one were, that I wouldn't expect to see him for at least half an hour. Transit security would probably have responded quicker, but even then, the kids would have been long gone before they arrived.

The purpose of my story, however, was not to justify my lack of action, but to illustrate how low public decency has sunk, both in the miscreants actions and the 20 businessmen who averted their gaze and pretended not to see.


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## Pergamum (Nov 18, 2010)

I think in the US that little positive impact is done by strangers trying to correct others, unless the others' behavior threatens the health or seriously interferes with you. If you do it "as a Christian" most of the time the offender merely chalks up all Christians as being judgmental and nosy. They are not at a state of readiness to hear what you have to say.


However, I do speak up often....although admittedly not for a "Christian witness" but mostly just because I cannot endure standing by idly and being passive.


...but I seldom see any positive results from it. Though I will continue to speak up.


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## seajayrice (Nov 18, 2010)

Tim said:


> I have recently been challenged to consider how I react to people that I come across in public. This week particularly, I have been faced with behavior that I think is unacceptable.
> 
> However, I also know that if you call people out on these things, you risk an escalating conflict.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe the dog's owner was consumed by the death of his mother that day.


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## AThornquist (Nov 18, 2010)

When a person puts another in danger, I feel correction is necessary. Note that I said, "I feel" because this is highly subjective and circumstantial. There are other situations that I speak up as well, but it demands great discernment and wisdom in that moment. One thing for sure though, I would not correct anyone that I am not willing to proclaim the Gospel to. I could not justify bringing the law without equally being desirous to bring the Gospel.


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## Scott1 (Nov 18, 2010)

If we look at this from the standpoint of engaging people God puts in your path, we will come to a different perspective.

Reformed theology helps us here.

We know that God is God of both the general and the detail of every circumstance. Indeed, he appoints our circumstances.

It's not so much that we are to "correct" people or situations we come across, but it is to be sensitive to His revealed will, and I would say His leading in every situation. Impossible to do, yet we must to please our God who gives us strength to do what we cannot do.

We have no idea what a kind gesture, a gentle reproof, an act to restrain even a small evil, or a word fitly spoken will do. We do not know what God will do with it. We only know we must be faithful, and seek that in every situation, trusting and leaving the results to our sovereign God.



> Proverbs 25:11
> 
> 11A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.





> Genesis 9
> 
> 9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?





> Leviticus 19
> 
> 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.



Remember, Scripture tells us our "neighbor" is our fellow man, created in the image of God.

That affects everything.


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## au5t1n (Nov 18, 2010)

Scott!


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