# Does Your Congregation Recite the Lord's Prayer?



## Ed Walsh (Nov 7, 2021)

Greetings beloved of the Lord,

This topic about the Lord's Prayer was brought up on the Puritan board before. Here's one from 2008, Recitation of the Lord's Prayer, but I hope that no one will mind me asking about it again.
~~~~~~~

As the title says, does your church recite the Lord's Prayer in unison during the worship service?

Mine does and I've finally stopped participating. I spoke to one of the elders, a good friend of mine, about my ideas regarding the practice, and he said he would look into it and thanked me.

Whatever the purpose of its recitation, it certainly isn't prayer. Who on Earth could pray the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer about the Holiness of God, the Kingdom of God, and express desire for His will to be done on Earth like the angels in heaven--all within a space of between 10 and 12 seconds. Yes, I timed it.

First of all, it seems clear to me that the Lord's Prayer was never meant to be recited word for word in a hurried way. Just compare its rendering in Luke, and you will see how much variation there is between the two.

At best, it seems to be a brain dulling, overly familiar use of a beautiful passage of scripture.

I told my Elder that it seemed either a superstition or a kind of incantation, but never a prayer.

At worst, I consider it is taking God's name in vain.

What say ye all?

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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

The church I go to recites it every Sunday. I know what you mean when you say that it can be used as some kind of superstition or incantation but not a prayer-- vain babbling or some sort of duty.

But I have realised whenever it is recited together that the deeper spiritual implications come to the surface.

The realisation of the presence of God, and his holiness, leading to adoration in the opening line, the body's strong desire for Christ's return and establishment of his kingdom in the second line, the importance of relying on God for daily essentials in the third line, the need for reconciliation and repentance in the fourth line, protection from the evil one in the fifth line, and honouring his sovereignty in the last line.

I understand that reciting the prayer in this manner may not work for all but, hopefully without sounding too mystical, for me it is an enlightening spiritual experience by which, with fellow brothers and sisters, we can draw near to God in heartfelt and humble confession. And yes all of this is experienced within 15 seconds.

So I believe it is about the heart and the deeper implications of the verse as much as it is about reciting it as a part of scripture, which makes it a worthy part of church service.

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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

No. Do not recite the Lord's Prayer in worship. That is neither its purpose, nor its use in worship. If the minister wants to pray it as it is meant to be prayed, then use it in the service and pray as the minister leads. It can be used as a prayer itself. It is not only a pattern. But not meant for congregational recitation, which also has other implications concerning the RPW and Liberty of Conscience.

See how the Catechism instructs the use of the prayer:
LC Q. 187. How is the Lord’s prayer to be used?​A. The Lord’s prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make our prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.​
It is a beautiful prayer. I preached on it and its six petitions and it deepened and heightened my view of prayer and the right rank of the things we pray for.

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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> No. Do not recite the Lord's Prayer in worship. That is neither its purpose, nor its use in worship. If the minister wants to pray it as it is meant to be prayed, then use it in the service and pray as the minister leads. It can be used as a prayer itself. It is not only a pattern. But not meant for congregational recitation, which also has other implications concerning the RPW and Liberty of Conscience.
> 
> See how the Catechism instructs the use of the prayer:
> LC Q. 187. How is the Lord’s prayer to be used?​A. The Lord’s prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make our prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.​
> It is a beautiful prayer. I preached on it and its six petitions and it deepened and heightened my view of prayer and the right rank of the things we pray for.


I respectfully disagree. It is a part of scripture. What makes reciting the Lord's prayer in worship different from reciting John 3.16 in worship?

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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

hLuke said:


> I respectfully disagree. It is a part of scripture. What makes reciting the Lord's prayer in worship different from reciting John 3.16 in worship?



We do not recite Scripture congregationally _in public worship_. We are Presbyterians, you appear to be Anglican from your signature. We are guided by the RPW. And do not see congregational recitation of Scripture as an element of worship which is laid out for us in our Confession of Faith, Chapter 21 (prayer is covered in paragraph III and IV). The fifth paragraph lists the other elements (or parts) of worship as we understand the Bible to teach it.

V. The *reading *of the scriptures with godly fear; the sound *preaching*, and conscionable *hearing *of the word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence: singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as also the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions, which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in a holy and religious manner.​
And the reading of the Word is limited to officers as per our Larger Catechism Q. 156:
Q. 156. Is the word of God to be read by all?​A. Although *all are not to be permitted* to *read the word publicly* to the congregation, yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves, and with their families​
As Ed is a Presbyterian, he should be guided by these principles. I believe, wholeheartedly, that these are Biblical principles and not just Presbyterian. But I just mention that as to why we disagree on recitation of the Scripture by the congregation as not being an element (or part) of the worship service. Now, some Presbyterians have moved to a more Anglican position on this kind of thing. But "stricter" Presbyterians do not.

Anyhow - I hope you can see the disconnect, brother. Whether you agree or not! Blessings!

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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> We do not recite Scripture congregationally _in public worship_. We are Presbyterians, you appear to be Anglican from your signature. We are guided by the RPW. And do not see congregational recitation of Scripture as an element of worship which is laid out for us in our Confession of Faith, Chapter 21 (prayer is covered in paragraph III and IV). The fifth paragraph lists the other elements (or parts) of worship as we understand the Bible to teach it.
> 
> V. The *reading *of the scriptures with godly fear; the sound *preaching*, and conscionable *hearing *of the word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence: singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as also the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions, which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in a holy and religious manner.​
> And the reading of the Word is limited to officers as per our Larger Catechism Q. 156:
> ...


Thanks Rom. I can see the disconnect. To be honest, I'm battling with my conscience and emotions at the moment. On the one hand I respect the principles laid down in the respective church doctrine, but on the other hand I perceive the issue of prohibiting certain things such as reciting scripture allowed in unison to be leaning towards legalism-- my emotions (which are utterly unreliable) are screaming that there should not be such division in a simple matter like reciting scripture together as brothers and sisters in Christ. Surely, for examplereciting the psalms in unison as a form of prayer is permissible!
Peace with you,
Hayden

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## jw (Nov 7, 2021)

We pray it together at the conclusion of the Pastor’s prayer (wherein he expands upon the petitions’ _a la_ the Larger Catechism’s helpful guidance). As with anything, it certainly could be superstitious or mindless droning, but that has more to do with the pray-er‘s heart than the Lord’s provided word. From Luke 11:

And he said unto them, When _*ye*_ pray, *say*, OUR…

Some of us “stricter” Presbyterians aren’t doing it out of some penchant for Anglicanism, but out of a principle in Scripture. ”When y’all pray, y’all say, Our Father…” Not, when thou prayest, thou shouldst say, “My Father.” No word of man is put Into the people’s mouths in the service, only the Word of God, whether it be a declaration of the terms of communion with the Lord (as summarized in the Ten Commandments), or in prayer, or in praise (the Psalms). The preacher alone has leave (and thereby will also give an account for one day) to contemporaneous speech in the worship service, according to the principles of preaching. To this, the congregation may give or withhold an _Amen,_ but they may not be compelled, nor may they arrogate to themselves, the action of expressing anything not from the scriptures, nor from a place of official capacity.

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## Ed Walsh (Nov 7, 2021)

hLuke said:


> I respectfully disagree. It is a part of scripture. What makes reciting the Lord's prayer in worship different from reciting John 3.16 in worship?



Hi Hayden,

I guess there is a side of me that agrees with both you and @kodos -- I often use the Lord's Prayer as an outline for my prayers. I think the shortest time I've spent going through it has been as little as ten minutes, while other times I get no farther than "Thy Kingdom Come," and spend as much as an hour and never complete the pryer.

What I am really against is its proneness to become a thoughtless ritual. I just can't pray that fast.

But about your John 3:16 verse as no different than the Lord's Prayer, I think I disagree. The verse in John is in no way a form of prayer, while many consider Matthew 6 as a form of prayer.

I attached a balanced paper titled, “After this manner, therefore, pray ye”: Puritan Perspectives on the Lord’s Prayer."
I found it helpful.

Ed


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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> We pray it together at the conclusion of the Pastor’s prayer (wherein he expands upon the petitions’ _a la_ the Larger Catechism’s helpful guidance). As with anything, it certainly could be superstitious or mindless droning, but that has more to do with the pray-er‘s heart than the Lord’s provided word. From Luke 11:
> 
> And he said unto them, When _*ye*_ pray, *say*, OUR…
> 
> Some of us “stricter” Presbyterians aren’t doing it out of some penchant for Anglicanism, but out of a principle in Scripture. ”When y’all pray, y’all say, Our Father…” Not, when thou prayest, thou shouldst say, “My Father.” No word of man is put Into the people’s mouths in the service, only the Word of God, whether it be a declaration of the terms of communion with the Lord (as summarized in the Ten Commandments), or in prayer, or in praise (the Psalms). The preacher alone has leave (and thereby will also give an account for one day) to contemporaneous speech in the worship service, according to the principles of preaching. To this, the congregation may give or withhold an _Amen,_ but they may not be compelled, nor may they arrogate to themselves, the action of expressing anything not from the scriptures, nor from a place of official capacity.



The congregational speaks out loud the Lord's prayer together? How does this square with the _Westminster Directory for Publick Worship? _
Or do you mean you pray it together when you say the _Amen?_

Sorry for the confusion, I cannot seem to parse in my mind what you are saying (which is likely on me).

But the broader point in my response to the inquirer was this - we do not see the congregational _recitation of Scripture _as a part of the Public Worship of God. Which, I think we both agree on.


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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> Hi Hayden,
> 
> I guess there is a side of me that agrees with both you and @kodos -- I often use the Lord's Prayer as an outline for my prayers. I think the shortest time I've spent going through it has been as little as ten minutes, while other times I get no farther than "Thy Kingdom Come," and spend as much as an hour and never complete the pryer.
> 
> ...


Ed, thank you for sharing that PDF. Instead of John 3.16 I think I could've used a better example. Psalm 23for example if that was recited the same way as Lord's Prayer I guess would have more similar implications.

Hayden

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## jw (Nov 7, 2021)

We pray in unison the Lord‘s prayer at the end of Pastoral prayer, and conclude with the corporate _Amen_. As for that & Directory for Publick Worship I am not seeing a contradiction, unless the direction for the minister to pray implies a prohibition of anything more. I’d defer to my pastor to answer such. We’re not quite Scots to the hilt, one might say. We even have a few lines repeated in the congregational Psalms & frequently observe the Lord’s Supper (usually every Lord’s Day).

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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> We pray it together at the conclusion of the Pastor’s prayer (wherein he expands upon the petitions’ _a la_ the Larger Catechism’s helpful guidance). As with anything, it certainly could be superstitious or mindless droning, but that has more to do with the pray-er‘s heart than the Lord’s provided word. From Luke 11:
> 
> And he said unto them, When _*ye*_ pray, *say*, OUR…
> 
> Some of us “stricter” Presbyterians aren’t doing it out of some penchant for Anglicanism, but out of a principle in Scripture. ”When y’all pray, y’all say, Our Father…” Not, when thou prayest, thou shouldst say, “My Father.” No word of man is put Into the people’s mouths in the service, only the Word of God, whether it be a declaration of the terms of communion with the Lord (as summarized in the Ten Commandments), or in prayer, or in praise (the Psalms). The preacher alone has leave (and thereby will also give an account for one day) to contemporaneous speech in the worship service, according to the principles of preaching. To this, the congregation may give or withhold an _Amen,_ but they may not be compelled, nor may they arrogate to themselves, the action of expressing anything not from the scriptures, nor from a place of official capacity.


He is *my* Jesus, _and can it be that *I *should gain, _for_ he doth prosper thy (my) work and defend thee (me). _


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## Morgan (Nov 7, 2021)

Thanks for posting that paper Ed, it was a good read on the topic. Personally, I do not like repeating anything week after week - it will become routine and eventually very few will pay any attention to what is being said. I also feel that we become like the papists, just blindly repeating what they are told. I guess I lean toward Bunyan and Flavel in the paper you posted.

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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

hLuke said:


> He is *my* Jesus, _and can it be that *I *should gain, _for_ he doth prosper thy (my) work and defend thee (me). _


irony btw


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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> We pray in unison the Lord‘s prayer at the end of Pastoral prayer, and conclude with the corporate _Amen_. As for that & Directory for Publick Worship I am not seeing a contradiction, unless the direction for the minister to pray implies a prohibition of anything more. I’d defer to my pastor to answer such. We’re not quite Scots to the hilt, one might say. We even have a few lines repeated in the congregational Psalms & frequently observe the Lord’s Supper (usually every Lord’s Day).



Thanks, helpful to understand the apparent divergence. May the Lord bless your Sabbath as well as to all posters on this thread. I will have to duck out, but I pray this continues to be a helpful discussion for Christ's Church. Blessings!

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## jw (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> Thanks, helpful to understand the apparent divergence. May the Lord bless your Sabbath as well as to all posters on this thread. I will have to duck out, but I pray this continues to be a helpful discussion for Christ's Church. Blessings!


Thank you. God speed to all the saints at DRPC(NA).

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## Taylor (Nov 7, 2021)

Morgan said:


> Personally, I do not like repeating anything week after week - it will become routine and eventually very few will pay any attention to what is being said. I also feel that we become like the papists, just blindly repeating what they are told.


This is not a sound argument. For one thing, I could argue both of these points against _any_ element of worship. Should we stop preaching every week because it might become routine? Should we stop letting the pastor offer a pastoral prayer every week because it might become routine? Should we stop having church itself every week because it might become routine? I can assure you, there are people in your congregation and mine for whom the various elements of worship, and even the Lord's Day itself, has become routine. As Josh noted above, the fault lies with them, not with worship. As for the "we become like papists" bit, surely you can agree that not everything the papists do is wrong. After all, the papists meet for worship on the Lord's Day every week; the papists pray during worship; the papists ask forgiveness of sins in their prayers. And "blindly repeating what we are told" is not unique to papism, but is common to unbelief in all traditions.

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## Morgan (Nov 7, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This is not a sound argument. For one thing, I could argue both of these points against _any_ element of worship. Should we stop preaching every week because it might become routine? Should we stop letting the pastor offer a pastoral prayer every week because it might become routine? Should we stop having church itself every week because it might become routine? I can assure you, there are people in your congregation and mine for whom the various elements of worship, and even the Lord's Day itself, has become routine. As Josh noted above, the fault lies with them, not with worship. As for the "we become like papists" bit, surely you can agree that not everything the papists do is wrong. After all, the papists meet for worship on the Lord's Day every week; the papists pray during worship; the papists ask forgiveness of sins in their prayers. And "blindly repeating what we are told" is not unique to papism, but is common to unbelief in all traditions.


There is a big difference in repeating the exact same words, over and over, week after week versus preaching through the same scriptures week after week. The same goes for prayer, I am not sure how you are making that a sound argument, I see no similarity in those two things. As for your comment on "not everything the papists do is wrong", I am certain you can find something that could be passed off as correct in every heretical religion. That does not make me want to imitate nor appear like them.


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## iainduguid (Nov 7, 2021)

From the 1646 Westminster Directory for the Publick Worship of God:

And because the prayer which Christ taught his disciples is not only a pattern of prayer, but itself a most comprehensive prayer, we recommend it also to be used in the prayers of the church. 

(from the section on prayer after the sermon; see https://thewestminsterstandard.org/directory-for-the-publick-worship-of-god)

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## Taylor (Nov 7, 2021)

Morgan said:


> There is a big difference in repeating the exact same words, over and over, week after week versus preaching through the same scriptures week after week.


There is, but then again, there isn't. The words may be different, but the act is the same every week. The point is this: The misuse or abuse of a thing is not an argument against that thing.

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## iainduguid (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> We pray in unison the Lord‘s prayer at the end of Pastoral prayer, and conclude with the corporate _Amen_. As for that & Directory for Publick Worship I am not seeing a contradiction, unless the direction for the minister to pray implies a prohibition of anything more. I’d defer to my pastor to answer such. We’re not quite Scots to the hilt, one might say. We even have a few lines repeated in the congregational Psalms *& frequently observe the Lord’s Supper (usually every Lord’s Day).*


You may not be Scots in this regard, but you are exactly in line with the Westminster Directory, which says:

"THE communion, or supper of the Lord, is frequently to be celebrated..."


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## jw (Nov 7, 2021)

iainduguid said:


> You may not be Scots in this regard, but you are exactly in line with the Westminster Directory, which says:
> 
> "THE communion, or supper of the Lord, is frequently to be celebrated..."


Yessir. That was a bit tongue-in-cheek on my part (in a brotherly ribbing type of way) toward my communion season brethren wherever they are (though I freely confess _frequency _is relative).


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## Morgan (Nov 7, 2021)

Taylor said:


> There is, but then again, there isn't. The words may be different, but the act is the same every week. The point is this: The misuse or abuse of a thing is not an argument against that thing.


 I think the paper Ed posted covers it well so I will leave it at that.


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## iainduguid (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> Yessir. That was a bit tongue-in-cheek on my part (in a brotherly ribbing type of way) toward my communion season brethren wherever they are (though I freely confess _*frequency *_*is relative*).


This is a tremendously important and often overlooked aspect of the Westminster Assembly understanding of the RPW. They allowed quite a bit of latitude for churches in how they worked out the practice of Biblical Worship. That's why they produced a "Directory of Worship" and not a "Book of Common Prayer". Their goal was to provide ministers with "help and furniture" not a rigid pattern for everyone to follow.

However, I have a hard time seeing how annual communion can be seen as celebrating the Lord's Supper "frequently". Rather the exception that the Directory permits ("When this sacrament cannot with convenience be celebrated frequently...") has become the norm in some places. The pastoral wisdom of the Directory is clear in allowing that not everyone can do weekly communion, especially in situations like 17th century Scotland where ordained ministers were not in great supply (many parishes had non-ordained "readers", especially in more rural areas). But the Westminster goal is clearly weekly communion, and they seem to have had no overriding concern about that becoming merely "rote".

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## jw (Nov 7, 2021)

I am right there with you on the Lord’s Supper frequency, Brother Duguid. As charitably as I may put it, I am unable to wrap my mind around communion _seasons_, and -it seems- a strong push for members to gather on days that are not the Lord’s Day (again, beyond a necessity requiring such need). I am not informed enough to know if the Assembly was desirous for the churches all to do weekly, but I think there’s a strong implication for it scripturally, especially in accordance with the weekly sabbath gathering cadence.

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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

iainduguid said:


> From the 1646 Westminster Directory for the Publick Worship of God:
> 
> And because the prayer which Christ taught his disciples is not only a pattern of prayer, but itself a most comprehensive prayer, we recommend it also to be used in the prayers of the church.
> 
> (from the section on prayer after the sermon; see https://thewestminsterstandard.org/directory-for-the-publick-worship-of-god)



The question is not whether the prayer is to be used, but rather whether the congregation should audibly pray with the minister. The Directory emphasizes the minister's part in that section. "...every *minister *is herein to apply himself in *his prayer*".

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## iainduguid (Nov 7, 2021)

jw said:


> I am right there with you on the Lord’s Supper frequency, Brother Duguid. As charitably as I may put it, I am unable to wrap my mind around communion _seasons_, and -it seems- a strong push for members to gather on days that are not the Lord’s Day (again, beyond a necessity requiring such need). I am not informed enough to know if the Assembly was desirous for the churches all to do weekly, but I think there’s a strong implication for it scripturally, especially in accordance with the weekly sabbath gathering cadence.


Here's the full paragraph from the section on the Lord's Supper

Where this sacrament cannot with convenience be frequently administered, it is requisite that publick warning be given the sabbath-day before the administration thereof: and that either then, or on some day of that week, something concerning that ordinance, and the due preparation thereunto, and participation thereof, be taught; that, by the diligent use of all means sanctified of God to that end, both in publick and private, all may come better prepared to that heavenly feast.

You can see how this allowed exception grows into a Communion Season, but the underlying assumption is that if you have weekly communion, everyone knows to come prepared every Sunday.


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## iainduguid (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> The question is not whether the prayer is to be used, but rather whether the congregation should audibly pray with the minister. The Directory emphasizes the minister's part in that section. "...every *minister *is herein to apply himself in *his prayer*".


You are correct in this; some of the other posts, however, had questioned any regular use of the Lord's Prayer in worship. It's good to be clear about what the Westminster Directory says on the subject.

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## Taylor (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> The question is not whether the prayer is to be used, but rather whether the congregation should audibly pray with the minister. The Directory emphasizes the minister's part in that section. "...every *minister *is herein to apply himself in *his prayer*".


Sincere question:

I understand that this section of the Directory has to do with ministers, but is there significance in the fact that it recommends the Lord’s Prayer to be used in the prayers of the “church,” rather than the prayers of the “minister”? Again, I’m asking sincerely for understanding.


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## kodos (Nov 7, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Sincere question:
> 
> I understand that this section of the Directory has to do with ministers, but is there significance in the fact that it recommends the Lord’s Prayer to be used in the prayers of the “church,” rather than the prayers of the “minister”? Again, I’m asking sincerely for understanding.



As a corporate prayer, the prayers of the minister become the prayers of the church. For in corporate prayer we are to pray along with the minister as he leads. That is why the language of the Lord's prayer is corporate "give *us*", etc. That would be my understanding of what the Directory means. It also says the Lord's Prayer is *also* to be used in the prayers of the church. Meaning that other prayers are also the prayers of the church. All the minister's public prayers are the church's prayers as well. That is my understanding. I hope it is helpful even if you disagree.

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## Tom Hart (Nov 7, 2021)

Our Westminster-confessing congregation does not recite the Lord's Prayer, but members join in the reading of Deuteronomy 5:6-21 as well as Psalm 124:8. My family does not participate; we believe that such reading in unison is nowhere commanded in Scripture. (See WCF 21, esp. Section 5.)

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## Taylor (Nov 7, 2021)

kodos said:


> I hope it is helpful even if you disagree.


Very helpful! No agreement or disagreement on my part yet. This topic is new to me as of today. I appreciate your kind help.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 7, 2021)

Our church does this as is common in the PCA. While I have refrained from other things like unision readings, my understanding is the same as Josh's since his church is the successor of the church that I 'reformed' in. On the historical point, when this subject has come up here, it has been frustratingly hard to demonstrate what the practice was when the directory was instituted (pastor prays it or the people pray it too?); the protester resolutioner division happened as the directory was released for use and uniform practice in the Scottish church and with the Cromwellian occupation and then the restoration it is very hard in some areas to nail down what was the intended practice here. Maybe it was shown on one of the old threads but I remember sort of the conclusion was it was unclear. That being said, like Ed but not quite there yet, I have become more and more dissatisfied with the practice. 1. Despite my saying something at least once to the pastor, it is always rushed through, never said slowly, and I barely have the time to think and I'm usually skipping words to keep up. 2. Some children are learning it presently, and the clear rote-ness seems to me have underscored my issues. I'm sick today (since Thursday); but maybe if not this would have been the Lord's Day I just stopped.

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## Poimen (Nov 7, 2021)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Our church does this as is common in the PCA. While I have refrained from other things like unision readings, my understanding is the same as Josh's since his church is the successor of the church that I 'reformed' in. On the historical point, when this subject has come up here, it has been frustratingly hard to demonstrate what the practice was when the directory was instituted (*pastor prays it or the people pray it too?*); the protester resolutioner division happened as the directory was released for use and uniform practice in the Scottish church and with the Cromwellian occupation and then the restoration it is very hard in some areas to nail down what was the intended practice here. Maybe it was shown on one of the old threads but I remember sort of the conclusion was it was unclear. That being said, like Ed but not quite there yet, I have become more and more dissatisfied with the practice. 1. Despite my saying something at least once to the pastor, it is always rushed through, never said slowly, and I barely have the time to think and I'm usually skipping words to keep up. 2. Some children are learning it presently, and the clear rote-ness seems to me have underscored my issues. I'm sick today (since Thursday); but maybe if not this would have been the Lord's Day I just stopped.


The Directory seems to indicate that it is pastor who prays it. At the end of the paragraph it reads "...every minister is herein to apply himself in _his_ prayer, before or after sermon, to those occasions: but, for the manner, _he is left to his liberty,_ as God shall direct and enable him in piety and wisdom to discharge _his duty._"

Either way, it does not commend a weekly recitation since it says "we recommend it also to be used _in _the prayers of the church" not _as_ a prayer. Other grounds, as expressed elsewhere in this thread, may deter us from using it weekly, especially where in so doing it violates the principles laid down in Q&A 187: "with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer."

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## Reformed Covenanter (Nov 7, 2021)

We used to use the Lord's Prayer in every Lord's Day service. Now we only use it in the mornings (when I am normally not able to attend). I think it is a great shame, as the use of the Lord's Prayer set the tone for the rest of the congregational prayers.


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## hLuke (Nov 7, 2021)

Another interesting view on reciting the Lord's Prayer as a congregation can be found in the Didache, which is arguably a first century church document.

_But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory forever. Thrice in the day thus pray._​(Didache 8)

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## py3ak (Nov 7, 2021)

Yes, we prayed it together this morning. In addition to the wording the Lord uses when giving the prayer, there is an example of jointly said prayer in Acts 4:24.

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## SolaScriptura (Nov 8, 2021)

The church I pastor… we pray it together each week.


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## Jonathan95 (Nov 8, 2021)

I'm a member of an OPC church and we recite the Lord's Prayer weekly as well. We also read a confession of our faith from a portion of scripture as well.


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## C4MERON (Nov 8, 2021)

We have started to recite it together congregationally each Lord’s Day morning service.


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## D.L. Arter (Nov 8, 2021)

Our church doesn’t recite the Lord’s Prayer during worship services, however, I do recommend it as a model of prayer and a teaching tool. I don’t necessarily have an issue with it being recited in a church as long as the recitation served its spiritual purpose and it doesn’t just become a routine. Our church does do a responsive call to worship, which is usually a Psalm or what might be considered a hymn found in Scripture, which could end up being a similar issue of routine, but it doesn’t seem to have become an issue as of yet.


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## retroGRAD3 (Nov 8, 2021)

Jonathan95 said:


> I'm a member of an OPC church and we recite the Lord's Prayer weekly as well. We also read a confession of our faith from a portion of scripture as well.


The OPC I am a member of does the same thing.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Nov 8, 2021)

Yes. At the end of the opening prayer the Pastor finishes with the Lord's Prayer and the congregation recites it alongside the Pastor.


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## lifelong_sinner (Nov 8, 2021)

I attend a PCA church, and we dont say it every week, when we do, it tends to be added on to a prayer our teaching elder began.


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## TheInquirer (Nov 8, 2021)

We recite/pray it weekly. I do find it difficult to actually "pray" it in the time it takes to say it. My preference might be to go through it more slowly, line by line, and allow for personal reflection, repentance, and prayer through it.


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## Regi Addictissimus (Nov 8, 2021)

We recite it weekly along with other congregational prayers, read from God's law in unison, and confess our faith before weekly communion with either the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed.

In the evenings, we do some of the above and read through the Westminster Standards in unison. We are nearing the end of the Larger Catechism.


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## bookslover (Nov 8, 2021)

Jonathan95 said:


> I'm a member of an OPC church and we recite the Lord's Prayer weekly as well. We also read a confession of our faith from a portion of scripture as well.



In my OPC church, we recite the Lord's Prayer, but do not do so every week.


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 8, 2021)

If you mean what you say in the words of the Lord's Prayer, as much as you mean what you sing (whether the Psalter exclusively or other songs inclusive); and furthermore if what you mean is enhanced at every point with true knowledge of what you profess in each of the preface, six petitions, and conclusion--see WSC #s 100-109; then your (corporate, unison) confession of faith in those words is, in my humble estimation, a "lawful oath/vow," and thus a proper element of worship.

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## Tom Hart (Nov 9, 2021)

Contra_Mundum said:


> lawful oath/vow


Would you say that WCF 21.5 has in view weekly recitation in the church's regular corporate worship?



> _The reading of Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of Psalms with grace in the heart; as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: *besides religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions, which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.*_


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## MChase (Nov 9, 2021)

The argument that it may become rote isn’t a good one. Our sinful hearts are prone to make any means of grace a rote ritual. The argument against it is that it isn’t a required form of prayer for public worship. The scriptural example is for the congregation to give their Amen to the Minister’s prayer, and in that manner to pray along side him.

It also cannot be an oath or vow. Oaths and vows are occasional elements of worship not weekly elements. Not to get into the weeds too far, but this is why I also think weekly communion is an error. Part of partaking of the elements is vowing unto the Lord and renewing covenant, which our confession states is an occasional occurrence.

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## kodos (Nov 9, 2021)

Contra_Mundum said:


> If you mean what you say in the words of the Lord's Prayer, as much as you mean what you sing (whether the Psalter exclusively or other songs inclusive); and furthermore if what you mean is enhanced at every point with true knowledge of what you profess in each of the preface, six petitions, and conclusion--see WSC #s 100-109; then your (corporate, unison) confession of faith in those words is, in my humble estimation, a "lawful oath/vow," and thus a proper element of worship.



This is contrary to the Westminster Confession of Faith's teaching on Oaths/Vows.

WCF 21.6 - "...*besides *religious oaths and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon *special occasions".*

I have found that a lot of Presbyterians unhappy with the RPW attempt to appeal to this as an "out".. But that is not what the Confession of Faith teaches. It does not envision this being a weekly or regular occurrence. Besides - an oath binds to performances, see Chapter 22, and is to be administered. If you want to tell your congregants you are administering an oath, try telling them that before you recite it. But then they will say you are being confounding. Even the unlearned will think you are from another planet.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 9, 2021)

I don't have a strong opinion about this matter one way or the other, but I did just read through the passage. Jesus said "pray then *like* this." As far as I can tell he was giving us a model for prayer, but not a specific, required, word for word, prayer to pray, let alone every time we gather as a church. To me, and I mean just to me, this sounds like a ritual which could potentially be very healthy for the church, but also has the potential to become just another formal ritual with not as much spiritual benefit if it becomes too repetitive.


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## bookish_Basset (Nov 9, 2021)

Our congregation prays it together right after the invocation on Sundays when we celebrate the Lord's Supper, so generally once a month.

I've never really grasped how to pray such prayers reflectively, either, though I try to do it with intention. I guess I've reconciled myself to it by figuring that more reflective prayer is more suited to one's private devotions, and corporate unison prayer is appropriate and meaningful in a different way? I could be wrong; it isn't something I've conclusively thought through.

I'm just grateful that we don't have a written corporate prayer of confession, because that was much more confusing for me through my Anglican years and then in our previous PCA congregations.


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## De Jager (Nov 9, 2021)

The only time we do it is in connection with our form for the administration of the Lord's supper. I'm in the URC...the Dutch churches have their own quirks when it comes to these things. As for me personally, I would be quite happy to not repeat the prayer in unison. But my conscience isn't pricked by doing so. That doesn't mean I am right, though.


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## Ed Walsh (Nov 9, 2021)

Do you want to know what is most interesting to me about this and other similar threads? And I'm the one who started this one.

When I post about our only hope as being a massive work of the Spirit coming in revival, I get maybe three responses.
And one of those is usually a joke of some sort.

Wake up, before it's too late.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 9, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> Do you want to know what is most interesting to me about this and other similar threads? And I'm the one who started this one.
> 
> When I post about our only hope as being a massive work of the Spirit coming in revival, I get maybe three responses.
> And one of those is usually a joke of some sort.
> ...


I don't think I understand what you're saying, brother. That people aren't discussing a massive work of the Spirit and revival more, when they should be?


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## Steve Curtis (Nov 9, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> When I post about our only hope as being a massive work of the Spirit coming in revival, I get maybe three responses.


Is that what you posted about??
It seems to me that you asked a direct question and have received many (not three) responses to that question.

If we all missed the intention of the OP, then perhaps you could reframe it.

Forgive me if I misunderstood this (#55) post...


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## hLuke (Nov 9, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I don't think I understand what you're saying, brother. That people aren't discussing a massive work of the Spirit and revival more, when they should be?


I believe he meant that people on this board _may_ be more inclined to discuss issues of trivial degree when compared to discussion the work of God, or deeply spiritual matters such as godliness or holiness.

There is doubtless an intellectual focus on this forum which for some (speaking generally) may blur the reality of godly living in each PuritanBoard member's life.

I speak with no such certainty because I am fully aware that Ed is entitled to his convictions and moreover I am in no position to evaluate a member's personal walk with God in terms of their devotion to matters pertaining to holiness or spiritual renewal when I have my own spiritual pitfalls to deal with.

@Ed Walsh I do see what you're getting at!


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## jw (Nov 9, 2021)

For what it's worth to anyone reading this, I can take or leave most any bit of information that I see here on the Puritan Board. Don't misread that as not enjoying the online company of friends & brethren here. I do, or I would not spend time posting, poking, praying for, and jesting with folks here. With that caveat, I'll say: (and I'm gonna give a paragraph break here for @ZackF)

If our best efforts are spent on work in the inner man, as informed by the Scriptures in our local chapters of Zion, our own families in private worship, and the Spirit of God's illumination in our secret worship via the Word -while we might take _encouragement_ on the Puritan Board- we will have no dependency on the conversations that pass herethrough. If someone doesn't heed my freely-given advice, that is his prerogative. This is not a church. This is not where I am duty-bound to correct (though I'm free to express such), or confess my sins, and share my struggles. Each of those things -by command- belong to those with whom I commune each Lord's Day, and to some degree, those with whom I share in Presbyterial communion (and denominational, _etc._).

You can take what I've said above, or you can _Not_ take it. Either way, that's fine.

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## Jonathan95 (Nov 9, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> Wake up, before it's too late.


Sorry Sir but, who is _asleep_ in this context?


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## VictorBravo (Nov 9, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> When I post about our only hope as being a massive work of the Spirit coming in revival, I get maybe three responses.


Maybe it’s because it sounds odd and vaguely unconfessional. Our only hope?

That would be Christ, not necessarily revival.

Notwithstanding, may God revive us all...thy kingdom come.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Nov 10, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> Do you want to know what is most interesting to me about this and other similar threads? And I'm the one who started this one.
> 
> When I post about our only hope as being a massive work of the Spirit coming in revival, I get maybe three responses.
> And one of those is usually a joke of some sort.
> ...


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 10, 2021)

kodos said:


> This is contrary to the Westminster Confession of Faith's teaching on Oaths/Vows.
> 
> WCF 21.6 - "...*besides *religious oaths and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon *special occasions".*
> 
> I have found that a lot of Presbyterians unhappy with the RPW attempt to appeal to this as an "out".. But that is not what the Confession of Faith teaches. It does not envision this being a weekly or regular occurrence. Besides - an oath binds to performances, see Chapter 22, and is to be administered. If you want to tell your congregants you are administering an oath, try telling them that before you recite it. But then they will say you are being confounding. Even the unlearned will think you are from another planet.


(response below should track with Tom's Q to me, as much as with Rom's post)

When I administer a baptismal oath, as I did to parents of covenant children just a little while ago, I ask them not only to "do" certain things (performances) but also whether they "believe" certain things, which they verbally affirm. When one swears in a court of law to _tell_ the truth, the truth he _speaks _is conjoined to his oath. It is all one piece.

A public confession is _witness_ testimony. Confessing the faith is a form of vow-taking. Whether the framers of our Confession did or did not desire the taking of vows (like the occasional baptismal vows) to be anything more than highly occasional, and preferred no regular or weekly witnessing in this manner, yet for all that the fact doesn't change that it IS such corporate witnessing.

Those who pray the Lord's Prayer (and there are other practices, like recitation of the Creeds, which things have precedence in the Reformed Churches back to Calvin, if not favored in early Scottish Presbyterianism) have behind their declaration of those lines the plain faith of the Catechism spelling out what their church believes, teaches, and confesses--if they need more than the words themselves. Children and adults should learn both the prayer, and the Catechism exposition. Say it alone, or with others ("*Our *Father..."), the form Jesus taught us is so a witness.

Annual communion might be what some Westminster commissioners felt was the proper frequency--by the way, both sacraments are oath events, even without formal adjuring with congregational verbal response at the Supper; even the word _sacrament _comes from a Latin term used for a military oath--but even so, those who aim at greater frequency for the Supper have as much of the Standards to rest in as do those who keep to a more primitive Presbyterian practice.

So, I'm going to deny that a common confession, even of the Lord's Prayer, is contrary to or contradicted by the WCF. It seems consistent to me when regarded (and I think properly) under a lawful element of worship, even if not all congregations holding (nearly) the same Confession exhibit their commitment in the same manner or frequency. I think there's clearer warrant for the Prayer and the Creed than trying to find explicit warrant for uninspired hymnody.

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## Ed Walsh (Nov 10, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I don't think I understand what you're saying, brother. That people aren't discussing a massive work of the Spirit and revival more, when they should be?



I think that's everyone that commented.
@C. M. Sheffield
@VictorBravo
@Jonathan95
@hLuke
@kainos01

I don't think I should change the OP's purpose by turning this into a different topic. So this is a kind of answer to everyone that either misunderstood my post (for it was most definitely off-topic) or didn't like it.

I was wrong to post what I did about revival as it was totally off-topic.
I thank you all for your participation in my thread on the Lord's Prayer. I learned a lot. I started out totally disagreeing with reciting the Lord's prayer, but have moderated my view by what many said. So thanks again.
I have been frustrated of late how seemingly disinterested most have been to discuss our dire need for God to do an extraordinary work of waking the Church. That's because of the, maybe half dozen times, I either commented on or started a new thread on the subject of revival; I ALWAYS got a ho-hum response. I just did a search for the word "revival" by member "Ed Walsh" and found 33 times when I spoke of the subject and got very little interaction.
Below is my experience for the last two years:
At least six months before Covid, I started sharing my opinion that the USA and the whole world, for that matter, is ripe for judgment and that unless the Church wakes up and agrees together to pray (like in pleading and begging with strong crying - Hebrews 5:7) for God to come and intervein, we are going to lose what's left of our freedoms, at least in the USA. My own pastor made fun of me like I was chicken little. And almost no one I spoke to was interested, and some tried to discourage me from my belief. Thus my frustration and the out-of-place post.

A few weeks ago, I started writing (not posting) a paper titled, *Trivial Pursuit--It's Not a Game*.

Thanks for your patience with me.

Ed Walsh

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## Logan (Nov 10, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> I have been frustrated of late how seemingly disinterested most have been to discuss our dire need for God to do an extraordinary work of waking the Church. That's because of the, maybe half dozen times, I either commented on or started a new thread on the subject of revival; I ALWAYS got a ho-hum response. I just did a search for the word "revival" by member "Ed Walsh" and found 33 times when I spoke of the subject and got very little interaction.



Ed, it's easy to get discouraged that more edifying posts aren't interacted with as much as controversial ones.
Then again, we tend to interact more when we disagree than when we agree. It's possible that you get little interaction because there is significant agreement. It certainly happens on other clearly edifying topics, so perhaps that is partially to "blame" here?

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## C. M. Sheffield (Nov 10, 2021)

Logan said:


> It's possible that you get little interaction because there is significant agreement.


That is it precisely. When you come to the PB and say "The world is going to hell and the church needs an extraordinary work of revival!" the response is going to be "Yep, amen." Not really a whole lot to discuss as far as most here are concerned.

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## kodos (Nov 10, 2021)

Logan said:


> Ed, it's easy to get discouraged that more edifying posts aren't interacted with as much as controversial ones.
> Then again, we tend to interact more when we disagree than when we agree. It's possible that you get little interaction because there is significant agreement. It certainly happens on other clearly edifying topics, so perhaps that is partially to "blame" here?



I will add my Amen to this. We pray constantly for revival and seek the revival of our local city in our congregation (where the Lord has called us specifically to minister to). We support everything you say @Ed Walsh . I am blessed to know your heart is in this place, brother.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Nov 10, 2021)

It is generally a good rule of thumb never to read too much into how much something is liked or even disliked on social media and discussion boards.

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## jw (Nov 10, 2021)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> It is generally a good rule of thumb never to read too much into how much something is liked or even disliked on social media and discussion boards.


Leftist!

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