# Word of Faith movement



## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

Would you classify the word of faith movement as a cult and why? Or simply heretical?


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## Scott Bushey (May 1, 2004)

They are a heretical cult which does not believe in the God of the scriptures. Their position on Christ going to hell and tortured by the demons there is only one of many heresies.


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## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

I was curious to see if anyone know's there views on the Trinity. I happened across Joyce Myers website and her view of the Trinity seemed a little bizarre to me. www.joycemeyers.org under doctrine of faith


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## Bladestunner316 (May 1, 2004)

Scott,


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## Craig (May 1, 2004)

They seem to &quot;borrow&quot; ideas from scientology...and have been influenced greatly by Mary Baker Eddy.

Just to give you an idea of how bizarre these people are, Benny Hinn recounted that he likes to go to the grave of his mentor to &quot;soak&quot; up the annointing still present in her bones.

They teach that everyone is a little god.

Hinn has been rebuked on numerous occassions for teaching strange doctrines about God having a physical body.

Their idea of faith is more mind over matter than anything. Faith is spoken, and it is the spoken word that controls things. That is why they speak to their problems. That is why they like to talk about talking about how rich your going to be: keep saying it and it will happen.

This isn't a misguided part of Christianity. This is a movement of false prophets (resembling the &quot;super apostles&quot; Paul spoke of).


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## Fly Caster (May 1, 2004)

[quote:37836091f5][i:37836091f5]Originally posted by Irishcat922[/i:37836091f5]
Would you classify the word of faith movement as a cult and why? Or simply heretical? [/quote:37836091f5]

I would classify the [b:37836091f5]Movement[/b:37836091f5] as heretical and certain elements within it as cultic (Ken Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Paula White, etc.). It doesn't have a formal structure like the cults such as the JW's, Mormon, SDA, etc. And I know of undiscerning Christians who get sucked into the teaching of some of its leaders. But I do believe them to be true Christians, though quite honestly they didn't come to faith though a WOF ministry.

I believe that its more gnosticism than anything else. At least the TBN variety.


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## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

I seem to come across alot of people who will say to me that Joyce Meyers or Paula White and other in their group are good Bible teachers. I tell them they are not, that they are cultic in some of their views and heretical in others.


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## turmeric (May 1, 2004)

They get a lot of their ideas from a late-19th/early-20th Century occultist named E.W.Kenyon.


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## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

They seem to have some Swedenborgian ideas as well.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 1, 2004)

cultic in some and heretical in the rest


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## LawrenceU (May 1, 2004)

Craig nailed it on the position of many within the movement. They don't borrow from scientology. They sprung from the same fountainhead historically and philosophically; and yes, Kenyon is well respected by some.

For a very well written critique read, [u:d9ba6267a2]A Different Gospel[/u:d9ba6267a2] by McConnell. It is exceptionally well done.

Edited to correct author's name.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by LawrenceU]


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## Fly Caster (May 1, 2004)

For what it worth, I browsed through the newest edition of Walter Martin's [i:8494f6ad42]Kingdom of the Cults[/i:8494f6ad42] (Ravi Zacharias, editor) and noticed that the section on the WOF had been deleted. Bad move, in my opinion.


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## Scott Bushey (May 1, 2004)

Fly,
To me, that just goes to show how the modern day evangelical has sold out and continues to sell out for the sake of _getting along_. They are bordering so close to the ecumenical fringe that one day, the term will have lost it's Christian meaning altogether. The Lord only knows what has compelled them at this point. I am sure Ravi had some say in it.

Maybe I will send him a letter asking............

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Bladestunner316 (May 1, 2004)

This reminds me of when Jesus asked if would find any faith when he returned. Seems that our numbers keep on dwindling. 

blade


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## Ianterrell (May 2, 2004)

&quot;I seem to come across alot of people who will say to me that Joyce Meyers or Paula White and other in their group are good Bible teachers.&quot;

helloooo! Female elders = wrooooong!

Seriously, the Word of Faith movement bothers me to no end. I was talking to a girl last night, and I asked her what church she went to. She started getting very excited about her church because Copeland, Creflo Dollar, and Jesse Duplantis have guest spoken. Strangely, it just made me incredibly disinterested in ever visiting her church. I really felt sorry for her, she kept going on and on about how expensive her church building was, and how they had held services at the Marriot Hotel blah blah blah. She didn't mention anything about her church that was God-honoring. The centrality of Christ just can't be seen when obscured by super-apostles like these men. Jesse Duplantis for example claims he goes years and years without sinning. Ironically he's proud of himself when he should be humilated, and he's decieving God's flock which are terrible sins.


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## Scott Bushey (May 2, 2004)

Madness I tell ya, madness!


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## Bradley Arakelian (May 5, 2004)

A missionary in Mexico with the Orthodox Presbyterian Church told me that there are three distinguishing characteristics that all cults have in common: 1) they deny the trinity; 2) they believe in salvation by works; and 3) they believe that they are the only true church. If the Word of Faith movement meets these criteria, then it is a cult.
Mr. Manata and I have our own private views about how cultists should be dealt with, but the rest of the world is not yet ready to adopt our solution.


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## VanVos (May 6, 2004)

Interesting you should mention Reinhard Bunkee. This week I was at an Assemblies of God conference and you'll never guess who sat directly in front of me, fours pews down. That's right Mr Bunkee himself. I was going to pass on your kind words Paul but he left just before the close service. But seriously does he teach word faith theology I would like to know just in case I bump to him again.

Thanks VanVos


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## Mary (May 6, 2004)

Is this a national movement? I work with 2 guys who attend a Word of Faith Church near our office. They're both black guys, but I know Joyce Meyer is white. What I mean is, the church experience in this country is usually pretty segregated, so I'm wondering if it's the same group?

Any clue?

Mary uzzled:


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

Paul Manata wrote:
[quote:6fd8a9e989]
all sorts of people.
[/quote:6fd8a9e989]

Paul,

So, if the church is called &quot;Word of Faith&quot; it is most likely affiliated with the movement? Interesting. 

Mary


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## Mary (May 7, 2004)

Well, now, that's a shame. They're really nice guys. As a matter of fact, the one guy (who always helps me carry heavy stuff, etc) is such a gentleman - opens doors, etc., that I complimented him (it's soooo refreshing when a man acts like a gentleman and I always try to show my gratitude) on his deportment (how's THAT for a word right out of Emily Post?) and he explained that it was part of their church's teachings - to treat women like ladies. They have a good &quot;public face&quot; unlike the JW I work with, who is constantly talking about people.

Hmmm. 

Mary


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## Reformed1 (Nov 23, 2004)

I have family who are VERY into the WOF teachings. I've had many discussions with them explaining what the Bible says on these issues. I have also said that I don't believe these people are Christians. Of course, they don't like it when I say it and write me off as the judgmental, unspiritual stuffy Calvinist who believes in a horrible God. I can only pray that SOMETHING (by God's will) will stick and cause them to THINK. Unfortunately, the WOF claims that "thinking" is dangerous. It's more important to "feel" and "experience." This is a cult. CULT CULT CULT!


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## daveb (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reformed1_
> I have family who are VERY into the WOF teachings. I've had many discussions with them explaining what the Bible says on these issues. I have also said that I don't believe these people are Christians. Of course, they don't like it when I say it and write me off as the judgmental, unspiritual stuffy Calvinist who believes in a horrible God. I can only pray that SOMETHING (by God's will) will stick and cause them to THINK. Unfortunately, the WOF claims that "thinking" is dangerous. It's more important to "feel" and "experience." This is a cult. CULT CULT CULT!



I too have family wrapped up in Word of Faith, it is painful for me to see. I have also tried to talk to them about the errors Word of Faith presents but they will not listen. Even when I show them their error right out of Scripture they deny they are wrong and are convinced that I am against them. My only hope is that God would illumine their hearts and minds to see the truth.

Is Word of Faith heretical? A cult? Absolutely! The things these guys pass off as Scriptural teaching is nasueating at best. I am genuinely at a loss for words when I think of how people could fall for this false teaching and so blindy follow the propagators of it when it is so clearly not biblical.


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## D. Paul (Nov 28, 2004)

*So, gentlemen*

since I have this Q coming fresh off a cross-state road trip with friends whom I dearly love where I was forced to endure (captive audience, I guess) two hours of TD JAkes, when some of you say you have held conversations with family or friends on this issue and they don't listen, what is it that we ought to be saying? 

I cringe every time I hear someone praising these teachers but these teachers are not stupid. They have formed their messages carefully so that they sound to be teaching the same sound, historical doctrines. Then WE are accused of splitting hairs when we demand clarification e.g. Jakes on the Trinity ( He's a Oneness Pentacostal) 

How do we frame our objections to touch the pertinent issues of such revered people in todays theological apathy? Do we take them to Calvin, Owen, Turretin? 

And further, why do todays true preachers not confront them? (Aside from Hinn)?


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## Irishcat922 (Nov 28, 2004)

To criticize these guys would mean cutting their audience in half, and that's not the "Evangelical" thing to do.


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## turmeric (Nov 28, 2004)

You should get some tapes from www.mckenziestudycenter.org from their 2003 Oktoberfuss(yeah, I know, that's what they call it) anyway the subject was spirituality and they talked a lot about "folk Christianity" which is perfectionism, word faith, et al. They don't use lingo. Your friends wouldn't necessarily like them but you could get some ammo to explain why this is not Biblical and maybe de-fuse some of the bad logic.



[Edited on 29-11-2004 by turmeric]


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2004)

I think John Macarthur tried to speak his mind on this issue and BBN said that's not nice. Because of this and the doctrine of election he is not on BBN anymore (come out from among them, and be ye seperate.)


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## BlackCalvinist (Nov 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Fly,
> To me, that just goes to show how the modern day evangelical has sold out and continues to sell out for the sake of _getting along_. They are bordering so close to the ecumenical fringe that one day, the term will have lost it's Christian meaning altogether. The Lord only knows what has compelled them at this point. I am sure Ravi had some say in it.
> 
> ...



Scott and Fly - actually, the removal of the WoF section had nothing to do with 'getting along', so much as it was a political move by Jill Martin-Rische (Walter Martin's daughter) and her husband. They've taken over publication rights of KOTC from CRI and Hank Hanegraaf due to some very unfortunate and very NASTY fighting between the two camps over other issues (including whether or not Hanegraaf is the rightful 'successor' to the presidency @ CRI). 

The WoF chapter was written by Rich Abanes, but Rich's credibility came under fire a while back from some Mormon folks AND from some Harry Potter folks. Some of his work was shown to be shoddy and/or plagarized - the Risches and Darlene Martin (who is now on the anti-Hank side...) didn't want Walter Martin's name associated with his. Hence, the chapter pull.


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## BlackCalvinist (Nov 29, 2004)

Oh yeah..... WoF is definitely cultic with many heretical elements. Some statements from WoF sound orthodox, but the _meaning_ they pour into the words (i.e.- their definition of 'faith') is far from what the scriptures teach.

To all - I did a talk at Westminister Presbyterian in Lancaster, PA back in 2001 on the subject of the WoF's doctrine of healing. It's online at my site as a streaming MP3:

http://www.theologicallycorrect.com/interaction/audio/healing.m3u

Enjoy.

Copies of the CD are available for $7.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Dec 16, 2004)

I was at a Books-A-Million, reading theology, and these two guys started talking to me. They said they were Reformed. Anyway, they seemed a little crazy, I forget their names.

Anyway, they said they were Reformed, and they were starting a church. They called it "Reformed Word of Faith". I don't know if that's the same Word of Faith being described as a cult, but I wouldn't be surprised.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 16, 2004)

I think if you explained being reformed to most W.O.Fers they would probably call you a heretic, they think the soveriegnty of God is a demonic doctrine.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Dec 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> I think if you explained being reformed to most W.O.Fers they would probably call you a heretic, they think the soveriegnty of God is a demonic doctrine.



Than they are eternally doomed.


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## Ianterrell (Dec 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ConfederateTheocrat_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> ...



Not necessarily.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 16, 2004)

The Lord can soveriegnly, in his kindness grant them repentance.


Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


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## D. Paul (Dec 21, 2004)

The WOF teachers also make common reference to "God having Faith" which is how he created the world (e.g. God spoke his faith-filled words..."

That has always grated on me. What wold we say in contrast?


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Dec 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ianterrell_
> 
> Not necessarily.



So you can believe God is not sovereign, and go to heaven? 

I am not saying you have to be a 5 point Calvinist, but to outright deny God is sovereign is not saying much for your Christian faith.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 30, 2004)

When taken to task, I would have to say that I have never met a man whom believed he was sovereign over God, when the principle was explained to him. Someone said that all men bow to the dirt when they pray, thus showing their dependance upon Gods power and sovereignty.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 30, 2004)

The WOFers believe you can manipulate God by your faith and words. So they definitely take issue with the Soveriegnty of God!


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> The WOFers believe you can manipulate God by your faith and words. So they definitely take issue with the Soveriegnty of God!



Sean,
They do not believe that. They believe that by the level of their faith, they can (literally) move mountains. If you were to ask any of these guys if they believe that they are sovereign over God and that by their words, they can _manipulate_ the creator into acting the puppet, they would laugh in your face.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 30, 2004)

Scott,
I have heard them teach that you can make God do what you want him to if you have enough faith and confess the word. For instance they believe regardless of what the scriptures teach if you believe for wealth or health God is bound to give it to you.


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## ConfederateTheocrat (Dec 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> Scott,
> I have heard them teach that you can make God do what you want him to if you have enough faith and confess the word. For instance they believe regardless of what the scriptures teach if you believe for wealth or health God is bound to give it to you.



I have friends in the movement, and Irishcat922 is right.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 30, 2004)

Guys,
I know they are a mess theologically; much they say borders upon heresy. What I was commenting on, is their view of soverignty; it is skewed, no doubt. But, if you describe your view of sovereignty to them, explain the correct definition, I can promise you that they would not disagree with your definition. Practically, they may deny it by the motions they take......


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 30, 2004)

Scott, 

You're right in principle they would agree, but if pressed they would deny it.
I have a hard time believing by what they teach that they are reading the same Bible I am.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 30, 2004)

If they agree in principle, they would agree.....What you may mean to say is that they would deny it in their actions.


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## Irishcat922 (Dec 30, 2004)

Yes. Or in what they say.


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