# Halloween



## Romans922

Any good reformed articles on the celebration of pagan halloween? 

Also, I don't know a complete history of this celebration, but is this an accurate portrayal of the history of the celebration coming to america?

American Halloween - The Real Story of Halloween - History.com


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## Skyler

Here we go again!


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## Romans922

What, you know it is that type of season. You have halloween, thanksgiving, christmas...


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## historyb

Ah holidays I love, the best time of year beside my anniversary and birthday. 

The one resource I know is wikipedia that might help a bit


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## he beholds

Since I am not a pagan I feel free to celebrate Halloween separately.


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## Kevin

I don't "celebrate" halloween either. My kids dress up in cute little costumes a visit the neighbors in a friendly folk celebration of kindness to children. 

I don't know any pagans, and I am unsure of their practices. Since European folk religions died out centuries ago all we have left of them are the names of days of the week & a few folkways that are loosely based on the former practice. All "paganism" that we know today is no older then the 19th century & is no more accurate the JK Rowlings made up "witchcraft".


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## OPC'n

since i'm not pagan, i feel free to celebrate christmas.....you get more for less work than you do halloweening.


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## Osage Bluestem

I don't think any of our holidays have any real meaning anymore. It's just an occasion to get off work or whatever and spend some time with family or friends.


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## Megan Mozart

When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat........because we want them to be super healthy.

I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird 

That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.


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## he beholds

OPC'n said:


> since i'm not pagan, i feel free to celebrate christmas.....you get more for less work than you do halloweening.



Well, I technically celebrate Christmas, too, because my husband loves it and sees nothing wrong with it and I was made for him. But in my head I call it festivus and focus on snow, trees, baked goods, and presents and leave Jesus' birth out of it, though I obviously count God's grace and blessings on that day as any other. I'm kind of backwards...I know. It's like the Fourth of July or Halloween to me.


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## OPC'n

he beholds said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> 
> since i'm not pagan, i feel free to celebrate christmas.....you get more for less work than you do halloweening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I technically celebrate Christmas, too, because my husband loves it and sees nothing wrong with it and I was made for him. But in my head I call it festivus and focus on snow, trees, baked goods, and presents and leave Jesus' birth out of it, though I obviously count God's grace and blessings on that day as any other. I'm kind of backwards...I know. It's like the Fourth of July or Halloween to me.
Click to expand...


Hey! Are we twins? 

-----Added 10/9/2009 at 01:52:55 EST-----



Megan Mozart said:


> When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... *it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat*........because we want them to be super healthy.
> 
> I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird
> 
> That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.



Glad I wasn't your kid.....meany!


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## he beholds

Megan Mozart said:


> When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat........because we want them to be super healthy.
> 
> I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird
> 
> That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.



Ours are still young, but what we do is trick-or-treat and collect candy. They can have a couple pieces, and then my husband takes the rest to school to use as treats for his students and/or to eat as his stress levels determine : )
We don't keep much in the house at all. I think we'll always do it that way.


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## OPC'n

he beholds said:


> Megan Mozart said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat........because we want them to be super healthy.
> 
> I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird
> 
> That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours are still young, but what we do is trick-or-treat and collect candy. They can have a couple pieces, and then my husband takes the rest to school to use as treats for his students and/or to eat as his stress levels determine : )
> We don't keep much in the house at all. I think we'll always do it that way.
Click to expand...


NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?


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## he beholds

OPC'n said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Megan Mozart said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat........because we want them to be super healthy.
> 
> I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird
> 
> That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours are still young, but what we do is trick-or-treat and collect candy. They can have a couple pieces, and then my husband takes the rest to school to use as treats for his students and/or to eat as his stress levels determine : )
> We don't keep much in the house at all. I think we'll always do it that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?
Click to expand...


Who really needs a pillowcase full of candy?


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## Megan Mozart

he beholds said:


> Megan Mozart said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I have kids, we're not going to let them do Halloween..........but not because it's supposedly "pagan"........... it's because we don't want our kids to have candy or view it as a special treat........because we want them to be super healthy.
> 
> I'm not being facetious. I know, we're weird
> 
> That said, we'll probably let them dress up and carve pumpkins anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours are still young, but what we do is trick-or-treat and collect candy. They can have a couple pieces, and then my husband takes the rest to school to use as treats for his students and/or to eat as his stress levels determine : )
> We don't keep much in the house at all. I think we'll always do it that way.
Click to expand...


Ahh, well... maybe I'll run this by my husband, that's kinda good idea.

Lol anything that I say like this should be taken with a grain of salt because I don't have any kids yet and all my preconceptions of parenting are going to be rocked once I start.


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## Tripel

The candy part of it grosses me out, so by no means will my children be eating loads of candy around Halloween. But I intend to enjoy many of the festivities with our kids, like carving pumpkins and dressing up. I view it as the rare time in our day when neighbors actually get out in the neighborhood and meet one another. I'm all for that. 

We haven't celebrated any Halloweens yet with our kids. Our oldest child is about to turn 3, so it just hit me that we're approaching the age where she would really enjoy it. Maybe this year, but if not, the next.


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## OPC'n

he beholds said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ours are still young, but what we do is trick-or-treat and collect candy. They can have a couple pieces, and then my husband takes the rest to school to use as treats for his students and/or to eat as his stress levels determine : )
> We don't keep much in the house at all. I think we'll always do it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who really needs a pillowcase full of candy?
Click to expand...


ME!!!!!


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## AThornquist

The original observance of Halloween was indeed wicked. What we _generally_ have in America and in my home is not that same observance though. We aren't trying to appease the spirits or protect our people from sickness or damaged crops. It's just a time to enjoy one another with traditions of eating certain kinds of foods, getting candy from neighbors, and dressing up the house in certain colors. That's hardly evil.

On the other hand, in trying to be charitable to both sides, there certainly are those who might have a wrong view of what my family means by Halloween. Consider Yoga and Hindus. To most people Yoga is just a certain type of exercise. People like it for what it is on a basic, physical level. However, to certain Hindus in particular it is a deeply spiritual practice. Thus, Yoga is completely different in its intentions and practice depending on the individual. So when I say we celebrate Halloween, there is the danger of someone thinking I observe it in an unlawful way and it may cause them to stumble because we mean different things by "Halloween." For this reason I would rather say that I celebrate Reformation Day and enjoy various traditions for the fall, which just so happen to include several lawful practices that people might understandably connect to Halloween, such as carving pumpkins. 
When in conversation someone brings up the similarities, I make it very clear that we do not celebrate death or condone trying to cause ourselves or others fear by haunted houses or "scary" movies, and we don't put up skeletons, spider webs, or other silly things like them. We recognize that if we celebrated Halloween as some do, we _would_ be sinning. Fortunately, we don't.


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## Megan Mozart

OPC'n said:


> NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?





My husband is really into the whole not-eating-processed foods thing and he converted me, for starters. Also I was raised to think that food=love and it was something talked about and loved and praised way too much. I guess I am reacting strongly to that and trying to stop it once and for all in the next generation! We'll see how it goes...


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## he beholds

Tripel said:


> The candy part of it grosses me out, so by no means will my children be eating loads of candy around Halloween. But I intend to enjoy many of the festivities with our kids, like carving pumpkins and dressing up. I view it as the rare time in our day when neighbors actually get out in the neighborhood and meet one another. I'm all for that.
> 
> We haven't celebrated any Halloweens yet with our kids. Our oldest child is about to turn 3, so it just hit me that we're approaching the age where she would really enjoy it. Maybe this year, but if not, the next.



We take our kids to the mall to trick-or-treat there. That way if they need the stroller there are no stairs, plus you can *sort of* assume that the candy is safer since stores are giving it away and traceable. When they are older we will do the neighborhood thing, but for now it is just long enough/safe enough for our family.

-----Added 10/9/2009 at 02:09:25 EST-----



OPC'n said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> 
> NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who really needs a pillowcase full of candy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ME!!!!!
Click to expand...


You need to borrow some toddlers on Oct. 31, then!


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## OPC'n

Megan Mozart said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> 
> NOT YOU TOO!!! What is this world coming to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My husband is really into the whole not-eating-processed foods thing and he converted me, for starters. Also I was raised to think that food=love and it was something talked about and loved and praised way too much. I guess I am reacting strongly to that and trying to stop it once and for all in the next generation! We'll see how it goes...
Click to expand...


I'm all about helping a sista out! Send all your chocolate my way....


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## Theogenes

I think its like eating meat sacrificed to an idol....


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## E Nomine

The responses on this thread really surprise me. All the elements of Halloween celebrations represent Satanic beliefs. I don't see any way to perpetuate these practices with a sincere rationalization that doing so brings glory to God (in my opinion, the Roman Catholics have failed at this). 

I believe it's a very poor Christian witness to celebrate sinful Halloween traditions.


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## AThornquist

E Nomine said:


> I believe it's a very poor Christian witness to celebrate sinful Halloween traditions.




Which is why we celebrate the non-sinful traditions of Halloween.


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## Tripel

E Nomine said:


> I believe it's a very poor Christian witness to celebrate sinful Halloween traditions.



What exactly is sinful about carving pumpkins? And dressing up in fun costumes to seek candy?


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## Skyler

E Nomine said:


> The responses on this thread really surprise me. All the elements of Halloween celebrations represent Satanic beliefs. I don't see any way to perpetuate these practices with a sincere rationalization that doing so brings glory to God (in my opinion, the Roman Catholics have failed at this).
> 
> I believe it's a very poor Christian witness to celebrate sinful Halloween traditions.



That's what they said about eating meat that had been sacrificed to Zeus(or whoever it was). Read Romans 14.

An association with something evil is not sufficient to render something universally evil; only, as Paul says, "to him [who makes the association] it is unclean."

Now, we -do- need to be considerate about our brothers & sisters and not try to encourage them to go against their conscience in this area.

On another note, the days immediately following Halloween and Christmas(and Easter) are the times of year I stock up all my secret nooks and crannies with candy for the rest of the year. I ran out halfway through summer last time; I'll have to get more.


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## E Nomine

Halloween derives from druidic samhain observances that involved human sacrifice to appease gods at the change of the seasons. Over time, the holiday morphed into an annual date on which pagans believed spirits of the dead walked the earth. Gourds were carved grotesquely to resemble skulls and illuminated from within to ward off these spirits. Disguises/costumes were worn either to hide from these spirits or to impersonate pagan dieties. Trick-or-treating derives from appeasement offerings to demons and their representative druid priests.


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## Megan Mozart

E Nomine said:


> Halloween derives from druidic samhain observances that involved human sacrifice to appease gods at the change of the seasons. Over time, the holiday morphed into an annual date on which pagans believed spirits of the dead walked the earth. Gourds were carved grotesquely to resemble skulls and illuminated from within to ward off these spirits. Disguises/costumes were worn either to hide from these spirits or to impersonate pagan dieties. Trick-or-treating derives from appeasement offerings to demons and their representative druid priests.



I don't think you're dealing with others' counters to what you are saying. What do you say in response to their observations?


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## AThornquist

I wonder how many little kids consider the appeasement offerings to demons when they go to their neighbor's house for a couple of Snickers bars.


You are right about the origins of Halloween. It is not the same now however. How many people think of pagan gods when they say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday? Other than a few folks, the association with past names is so stretched to be virtually nonexistent. The same can be said about Halloween.


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## E Nomine

I agree it is a matter of conscience. I also understand most holiday traditions, including yule logs, christmas trees, etc. derive from pagan celebrations. People can argue it's hypocritical of me to celebrate Christmas, but shun Halloween. 

Personally, I see Christmas as glorifing Christ and a witnessing oppurtunity to share the gospel. Halloween is obviously also a Christian witnessing opportunity, but I think joining in the traditions which are not tied to anything Godly gives an appearance of legitimacy to and a tacit approval of paganism. Halloween provides more of a witnessing opportunity for Satanists to generate interest in the occult.


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## OPC'n

E Nomine said:


> Halloween derives from druidic samhain observances that involved human sacrifice to appease gods at the change of the seasons. Over time, the holiday morphed into an annual date on which pagans believed spirits of the dead walked the earth. Gourds were carved grotesquely to resemble skulls and illuminated from within to ward off these spirits. Disguises/costumes were worn either to hide from these spirits or to impersonate pagan dieties. Trick-or-treating derives from appeasement offerings to demons and their representative druid priests.



Do you have a Christmas tree in your home for Christmas? Maybe you don't. There comes a point in time when what use to be represented by holidays is no longer represented. I don't celebrate halloween bc I don't have children and I hate having ppl knock on my door or ring my doorbell. I'm antisocial that way, but if others want to walk around for hours in the cold just to get candy when they can go to the store and get the same said candy then all I can say is, "Exercise is good for the heart!"


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## Berean

Romans922 said:


> What, you know it is that type of season. You have halloween, thanksgiving, christmas...



So, what are you going to be this year, Andrew?


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## Romans922

I'm going to be a Christian who protests all RC and pagan rituals!


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## CatherineL

We're not really into Halloween, but our girls love dress-up, so its been pretty hard to avoid. Also, it seems like the only time when all the families are out in our neighborhood!! 

We always give our fun (not super-preachy) tracts to trick-or-treaters. But I tape good candy onto them, in an attempt not to have our house rolled.

By the way, as far as candy consumption goes, we let them have a bunch that night, then put the rest in the freezer for special treats. Doled out like that. their bags usually last until the next spring, and I don't spend anything on reward treats. Just an idea for the health nuts.


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## ericfromcowtown

We don't celebrate haloween and don't intend to "trick-or-treat" with our kids when they are older (our son is 1 1/2). This puts us in the minority at our church (all the parents of young children that we socialize with celebrate haloween) and apparently on this board. This year we'll escape by going swimming and later our for diner.

It's a matter of conscience, and I can't in good conscience allow my children to participate in the holiday because of its pagan roots, despite it's popularity or it's modern, commercialized, and not explicitly pagan practices. 

Yes, I know that many Christmas practices have pagan roots and that the hoilday sits on an old pagan holiday. However, I believe that Christmas can be redeemed as a day to celebrate and focus on Christ, where I don't see that being possible with haloween. 

That's just my


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## Rich Koster

Halloween is a time for removing spirits from the face of the earth. This year I will remove some Member's Mark.


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## apaleífo̱

I would enter this conversation, but since I write supernatural horror, I feel pretty disqualified from making any unbiased remarks on this subject except to say that I think that in regard to Halloween, we must each act in the way that the Spirit has convicted us to act -- a pretty loaded remark I know and one that is often abused by false "Christians" with their own agendas. But I think that this is a case of what Paul meant when he said that there are some who will have no moral qualms about eating meat sacrificed to idols and others who will, but that we must respect both opinions as long as there is no Scripture to definitively denounce or support one or the other position.


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## Montanablue

One year at Halloween, my mother gave out dried fruit instead of candy. I don't know if this was her goal, but we had MANY fewer trick or treaters the next year.


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## Christusregnat

It should be noted that the Scripture likewise forbids us from celebrating pagan observances, when pagans watch us do it. For example, eating meat offered to idols is nothing, since an idol is nothing. However, one may not eat if they 1. Think it is sinful (conscience), or 2. Are observed doing so by a pagan.

Some of the remarks about paganism dying out in the 19th Century are naive in extremis. Lord of the Rings, C.S. Lewis, and Harry Pot-head, along with the Church of Satan, the Wiccans, Odan worship, and a host of other neo-pagan practices are common in our society, and growing in popularity. Wake up people. The pagans are watching you. This is a particularly real issue if you live in or near metropolitan areas.


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## Skyler

Oh, one comment re my post above--I'm one of those who doesn't celebrate Halloween owing to its pagan/Satanic origins. Even if there's nothing "objectively" wrong about it.


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## Megan Mozart

Christusregnat said:


> It should be noted that the Scripture likewise forbids us from celebrating pagan observances, when pagans watch us do it. For example, eating meat offered to idols is nothing, since an idol is nothing. However, one may not eat if they 1. Think it is sinful (conscience), or* 2. Are observed doing so by a pagan.*



Not being sarcastic: can you tell me where you get that from scripture?


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## Gord

All religion and theology aside, any thing that teaches kids to be greedy should be banned and made illegal. Are there no politicians that are REAL men?

Taking off my Archie Bunker hat now.


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## apaleífo̱

Christusregnat said:


> It should be noted that the Scripture likewise forbids us from celebrating pagan observances, when pagans watch us do it. For example, eating meat offered to idols is nothing, since an idol is nothing. However, one may not eat if they 1. Think it is sinful (conscience), or 2. Are observed doing so by a pagan.
> 
> Some of the remarks about paganism dying out in the 19th Century are naive in extremis. Lord of the Rings, C.S. Lewis, and Harry Pot-head, along with the Church of Satan, the Wiccans, Odan worship, and a host of other neo-pagan practices are common in our society, and growing in popularity. Wake up people. The pagans are watching you. This is a particularly real issue if you live in or near metropolitan areas.



This would be true several hundred years ago when Halloween actually had any religious significance. Fortunately (or unfortunately, perhaps, since it indicates a growing secularism in our society), Halloween has really become nothing more than a celebration of horror fiction and horror movies and has little to do with pagan rituals anymore. If it did, then you would be absolutely right -- we would be giving off the wrong signals in celebrating Halloween. However, I believe that as long as a person celebrates Halloween in a subdued, Christian fashion -- and yes, that means watching scary movies and enjoying ghostly tales, so long as they are not gratuitous and do not send the wrong messages -- then no pagan is going to watch your behavior and think badly of Christians. As for actual Wiccans and occultists, they're going to do what they do whether they see the next-door Christian putting a pumpkin on their porch or not.

It's interesting, though, that you mention C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, two Christian authors. Do you believe that the use of occultism in their fiction is unwarranted?


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## Kevin

Christusregnat said:


> It should be noted that the Scripture likewise forbids us from celebrating pagan observances, when pagans watch us do it. For example, eating meat offered to idols is nothing, since an idol is nothing. However, one may not eat if they 1. Think it is sinful (conscience), or 2. Are observed doing so by a pagan.
> 
> Some of the remarks about paganism dying out in the 19th Century are naive in extremis. Lord of the Rings, C.S. Lewis, and Harry Pot-head, along with the Church of Satan, the Wiccans, Odan worship, and a host of other neo-pagan practices are common in our society, and growing in popularity. Wake up people. The pagans are watching you. This is a particularly real issue if you live in or near metropolitan areas.


Adam, if you re-read my post you will note that I did not say that paganism died out in the 19th century. Rather I said that it died out hundreds of years ago & was REVIVED in the 19th century.

That is something very different.

The reason that this is germain to this discussion is that the revival is based on guesses as to what paganism even looked like. Trust me modern wiccans may be very devoted to their "faith" (the ones I know are) but they are following a made-up religion. So any claim that they stake to halloween is on shaky ground. The modern folk practice of being nice to neighborhood kids is a much more authentic then any modern pagan claim.


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## LadyCalvinist

This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween. 

The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween


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## Romans922

wow guys, sure are a lot of good articles from those who are reformed on this topic....


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## SolaSaint

I don't celebrate Halloween, but I do celebrate Reformation Day. Luther Rocks!


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## apaleífo̱

LadyCalvinist said:


> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween



I say this with a true respect for Reverend McMahan (whose articles I have benefitted from very much in the past), but I do not believe that he presents a convincing argument that all celebrations of Halloween are of the Devil. Rather, it appears that he sets up a straw man representation of Halloween with quotations from Satanist bibles and proceeds to tear down the straw man without addressing what Halloween actually has become to most Christians and non-Christians in the 21st century. I suppose if one actually believed that all fiction and discussions dealing with supernatural horror, regardless of their religious perspective, are inherently evil because they even mention such things, then his point would be valid. But I don't believe that such a thing has been proven yet or is supported by Scripture.


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## Christusregnat

Megan Mozart said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should be noted that the Scripture likewise forbids us from celebrating pagan observances, when pagans watch us do it. For example, eating meat offered to idols is nothing, since an idol is nothing. However, one may not eat if they 1. Think it is sinful (conscience), or* 2. Are observed doing so by a pagan.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not being sarcastic: can you tell me where you get that from scripture?
Click to expand...


Megan,

There are a few passages:



> 2 Corinthians: 14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



If we partake of meat sacrificed to idols, and do so in the pagan's context, they consider this as a fellowship with their idols.

Even more to the point (about meat offered to idols) is the following:



> 1 Corinthians: 23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25Whatsoever is *sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake*: 26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27If any of them that *believe not* bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, _*asking no question for conscience sake*_. 28But _*if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake*_: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32_*Give none offence*_, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33Even as I _*please all men in all things*_, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, _*that they may be saved*_.



Cheers,


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## Christusregnat

christabella_warren said:


> It's interesting, though, that you mention C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, two Christian authors. Do you believe that the use of occultism in their fiction is unwarranted?



Of course, occultism, if portrayed in a positive light, is evil. Lewis and Tolkein are more dangerous because they are considered (and professed to be) Christian, while promoting lawlessness. Such authors introduce people into the world of the occult and satanism. This is not surprising, since Lewis blasphemed the Holy Ghost's inspired Psalms, and Tolkein was a papist; after all, we get hocus pocus from the Idolatry of the Mass.

-----Added 10/9/2009 at 07:26:41 EST-----



Kevin said:


> but they are following a made-up religion.



Did you think that paganism has a fixed form?


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## Curt

ericfromcowtown said:


> We don't celebrate haloween and don't intend to "trick-or-treat" with our kids when they are older (our son is 1 1/2). This puts us in the minority at our church (all the parents of young children that we socialize with celebrate haloween) and apparently on this board. This year we'll escape by going swimming and later our for diner.
> 
> It's a matter of conscience, and I can't in good conscience allow my children to participate in the holiday because of its pagan roots, despite it's popularity or it's modern, commercialized, and not explicitly pagan practices.
> 
> Yes, I know that many Christmas practices have pagan roots and that the hoilday sits on an old pagan holiday. However, I believe that Christmas can be redeemed as a day to celebrate and focus on Christ, where I don't see that being possible with haloween.
> 
> That's just my



Do you think they'll still go out if they have to wear snow shoes?


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## apaleífo̱

Christusregnat said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting, though, that you mention C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, two Christian authors. Do you believe that the use of occultism in their fiction is unwarranted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, occultism, if portrayed in a positive light, is evil. Lewis and Tolkein are more dangerous because they are considered (and professed to be) Christian, while promoting lawlessness. Such authors introduce people into the world of the occult and satanism. This is not surprising, since Lewis blasphemed the Holy Ghost's inspired Psalms, and Tolkein was a papist; after all, we get hocus pocus from the Idolatry of the Mass.
Click to expand...


I know this is off-topic, but how did Lewis blaspheme the Psalms? Also, you did not answer any of my earlier points.


----------



## Iakobos_1071

We do not celebrate it anymore as that it is a Roman Catholic Holy-Day. The Pagan influence is from the Celtic Samhain (pronounced sow-in) festival. The festival has aspects of a festival of the dead. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain


The Romanists celebrate the Patron Saints on All Saint's Day (Nov1st) and All Hallow's Eve(Oct 31st). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints_Day


This is the same reason we do not celebrate Easter or Christmas. Roman Catholic amalgamations of Pagan festivals wearing a Christian Mask. (a cheaply made Christian mask cut off the back of a cereal box) 

We Celebrate Reformation Day instead of Halloween.


----------



## Rich Koster

Joshua said:


> Halloween? Forget that. I'd rather celebrate the demise of Potpourri Plus! And if anyone thinks I'm waiting til Oct 31 each year to get my Jolly Rancher, SweeTart, Smarties, Shocktart, BlowPop fix, well... whatever.



Does the potpourri cover the aroma of simmering rat brains?


----------



## Rich Koster

Joshua said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Halloween? Forget that. I'd rather celebrate the demise of Potpourri Plus! And if anyone thinks I'm waiting til Oct 31 each year to get my Jolly Rancher, SweeTart, Smarties, Shocktart, BlowPop fix, well... whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the potpourri cover the aroma of simmering rat brains?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You'll just have to read!  'Tis not what you think.
Click to expand...


Bu ah ha ha ha (originally posted by Austins' brother, Dr Evil, somewhere around 2002.... ignore Mr Bigglesworth's useless meows)


----------



## apaleífo̱

I think that Joshua and Rich are having Halloween without the rest of us...


----------



## historyb

One of my favorite candies comes out now. Hersey Apple Carmel kisses, yummy.  Peeps, can't forget those  Ah, the joy of the holidays and the candy 

-----Added 10/9/2009 at 07:52:44 EST-----



Christusregnat said:


> Of course, occultism, if portrayed in a positive light, is evil. Lewis and Tolkein are more dangerous because they are considered (and professed to be) Christian, while promoting lawlessness. Such authors introduce people into the world of the occult and satanism. This is not surprising, since Lewis blasphemed the Holy Ghost's inspired Psalms, and Tolkein was a papist; after all, we get hocus pocus from the Idolatry of the Mass.



I love CS Lewis and Tolkein's work, great stories. Jack's "Grief observe" help me with my parents death, God still uses his writings


----------



## Rich Koster

If the jocularity would get many freewill thinkers to understand Josh's post, I would say more jocularity and read his post twice! Good stuff.


----------



## apaleífo̱

historyb said:


> One of my favorite candies comes out now. Hersey Apple Carmel kisses, yummy.  Peeps, can't forget those  Ah, the joy of the holidays and the candy
> 
> -----Added 10/9/2009 at 07:52:44 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, occultism, if portrayed in a positive light, is evil. Lewis and Tolkein are more dangerous because they are considered (and professed to be) Christian, while promoting lawlessness. Such authors introduce people into the world of the occult and satanism. This is not surprising, since Lewis blasphemed the Holy Ghost's inspired Psalms, and Tolkein was a papist; after all, we get hocus pocus from the Idolatry of the Mass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love CS Lewis and Tolkein's work, great stories. Jack's "Grief observe" help me with my parents death, God still uses his writings
Click to expand...


I enjoy the works of Lewis and Tolkien as well. I actually sympathize with the points made by those who criticize works of fiction that represent the occult in a positive fashion (Harry Potter and Phillip Pullman's trilogy come up as two examples of such morally questionable fictions), but in the light of an _obviously_ Christian context, where the reader is _clearly_ meant to understand that the moral point-of-view of the author and the tale is Christ-centered, I believe that it depends on how the author is using the occult in his story. Are we to condemn the King Arthur tales because they have Merlin, a "good" magician (an obviously a throwback to old pagan archetypes)? Or are we to enjoy them as good stories that espouse the Christian values of chivalry and piety? Tolkien's tales are obviously set in a fantasy world that is not meant to resemble this world at all and his Gandalf fits into the Merlin mould fairly well; I cannot think of any story that C.S. Lewis ever wrote that portrays sorcery as something that a Christian ought to practice -- in fact, I think he condemns it quite severely in _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader._


----------



## caddy

[video=youtube;Q-1aui-wluE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1aui-wluE&feature=player_embedded[/video]


----------



## E Nomine

LadyCalvinist said:


> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween



That's an excellent piece. I pray more Christians read it and feel conviction regarding this holiday.


----------



## apaleífo̱

E Nomine said:


> LadyCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's an excellent piece. I pray more Christians read it and feel conviction regarding this holiday.
Click to expand...


You have not yet addressed my last post or answered any of the questions that I have asked regarding your position.


----------



## E Nomine

christabella_warren said:


> E Nomine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's an excellent piece. I pray more Christians read it and feel conviction regarding this holiday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have not yet addressed my last post or answered any of the questions that I have asked regarding your position.
Click to expand...



And you haven't convinced me that Halloween is an innocent fun-fest 

I've made my position clear. I've acknowledged that this is a matter of conscience. 

Dr. McMahan's article stands on its own; he is more knowledgable and articulate than I thus it would be vain for me to attempt to defend his position.


----------



## Andres

LadyCalvinist said:


> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween



The very first quote in Dr. McMahan's article is from satanist Anton Levey who states, “_After one's own birthday, the two major Satanic holidays are Walpurgisnacht (May 1st) and Halloween_.”

So how many people on this board no longer celebrate birthdays? just curious. 

And for the record I celebrate Halloween and birthdays. No walpurgisnacht though.


----------



## Dao

Halloween adds a L O T of candy. With other holidays, we over indulge with sweets and overeat unnecessarily. I wonder what kind of illness or aliments are caused by eating too much candy. Some things are not reversible.


----------



## Jake

Hmm. Sometimes topics on the Puritan Board look so much like what the Puritans wouldn't say that it is funny... 

As for me, I resist my parents urges and refuse to celebrate. I cannot do it with a right conscience.


----------



## Philip

> Of course, occultism, if portrayed in a positive light, is evil. Lewis and Tolkein are more dangerous because they are considered (and professed to be) Christian, while promoting lawlessness.



Have you actually read their works? As someone who has read much of both, I would say that neither was promoting occultism in any form. In fact, both Tolkien's Middle-Earth and Lewis's Narnia portray the occult negatively (Melkor-worship causes downfall of Numenor, the attempted resurrection of the White Witch in _Prince Caspian_).

All that said, I have not celebrated Halloween in the past, just Reformation/All Saints Day. I'm dearly hoping that _For All the Saints_ will be on the agenda on Sunday November 1.


----------



## historyb

Seems like we all have different opinions in regards to holidays, not a bad thing in and of itself. I love to celebrate Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Christmas with great gusto others do not that is fine to


----------



## PastorTim

Although the historical roots of halloween can be traced in pagan roots, I believe that the way we hold this holiday is not actually a celebraton of wicca or the like, but a time for fun for kids before the onset of winter. The name Halloween as a derivation of All Hallow's Eve and Sawhain (pronounced Sa ween) which is the Celtic New Year and not connotating evil in itself.
The simple fun that children have is just that, fun. It carries no "religious" overtones and no child will apply any. It is only over-zealous fundamentalists who do so. This attack only turns people away from Christianity and is a display of legalism devoid of grace.
I am disturbed more by proclaiming the celebration of Christ's birth a Holy day and the church setting it aside as if it were the Lord's Day. To use Christmas as a special mid-winter family day where we exchange gifts with loved ones and leave church out of it is acceptable.
I have often said that the only thing I fear more than legalist over-zealous fundamentalist Moslems are legalist over-zealous fundamentalist Christians.


----------



## SueS

I loathe Halloween and devoutly ignore it. October is without question the most lovely month of the year and Halloween is a blight on it. 
Why any rational person would decorate his/her dwelling with giant spiders, webs, bats, witches, goblins, and assorted demons is totally beyond me.

I believe Phillipians 4:8 is a very good reason to ignore Halloween - there is nothing "pure or lovely or of good report" connected with it.

Here on Bald Mountain our closest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and in the ten years we've lived here we've only had one trick-or-treater show up at our door - we gently told his mother that we didn't celebrate Halloween. Living in the woods certainly has its advantages!


----------



## Philip

I never celebrated halloween, partly because my parents both loathe the death symbolism that has become a part of it. Instead, our church (before we moved) used to host an All Saints' Eve party for children where there would be a theme like Pilgrims' Progress or Bible Translators. The idea was that kids could dress up and have fun without complaints from parents over any of this.

And yes, of course All Hallows Eve happens to coincide with Reformation Day.


----------



## apaleífo̱

P. F. Pugh said:


> I never celebrated halloween, partly because my parents both loathe the death symbolism that has become a part of it. Instead, our church (before we moved) used to host an All Saints' Eve party for children where there would be a theme like Pilgrims' Progress or Bible Translators. The idea was that kids could dress up and have fun without complaints from parents over any of this.
> 
> And yes, of course All Hallows Eve happens to coincide with Reformation Day.



A Bunyan-themed Halloween? What a wonderful idea!


----------



## AThornquist

christabella_warren said:


> A Bunyan-themed Halloween? What a wonderful idea!



Why not expand that to a Bunyan/bunyon-themed Halloween? That way Grandma with crazy feet can join in on the fun?


----------



## apaleífo̱

AThornquist said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Bunyan-themed Halloween? What a wonderful idea!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not expand that to a Bunyan/bunyon-themed Halloween? That way Grandma with crazy feet can join in on the fun?
Click to expand...


All of this is obviously going to have to go on my list of holiday ideas for the future; along with my retelling of "The Christmas Carol" with a modern televangelist visited in the night by the three ghosts of Hugh Peters, Richard Baxter, and Solomon Stoddard...though I don't think that even _that_ would reform most popular "preachers" these days.


----------



## raekwon

Montanablue said:


> One year at Halloween, my mother gave out dried fruit instead of candy. I don't know if this was her goal, but we had MANY fewer trick or treaters the next year.



There's a "fruit lady" in EVERY neighborhood!


----------



## Megan Mozart

raekwon said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> 
> One year at Halloween, my mother gave out dried fruit instead of candy. I don't know if this was her goal, but we had MANY fewer trick or treaters the next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a "fruit lady" in EVERY neighborhood!
Click to expand...


There was an Irish family on my block that would give out potatoes.  No joke. This is actually true.


----------



## Iakobos_1071

we are talking about giving out info on the reformation with candy... I know that could go horribly wrong, but I look at it as an educational opportunity, let the kids know about the reformation and the 95 thesis. with a little scripture to go with it... Any ideas?


----------



## ubermadchen

raekwon said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> 
> One year at Halloween, my mother gave out dried fruit instead of candy. I don't know if this was her goal, but we had MANY fewer trick or treaters the next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a "fruit lady" in EVERY neighborhood!
Click to expand...


That and the old man who gives out walnuts. I hated that guy when I was a kid.


----------



## Philip

AThornquist said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Bunyan-themed Halloween? What a wonderful idea!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not expand that to a Bunyan/bunyon-themed Halloween? That way Grandma with crazy feet can join in on the fun?
Click to expand...


I'll admit to being geeky even then--I was five and I went as the Celestial City.


----------



## Andres

Iakobos_1071 said:


> we are talking about giving out info on the reformation with candy... I know that could go horribly wrong, but I look at it as an educational opportunity, let the kids know about the reformation and the 95 thesis. with a little scripture to go with it... Any ideas?



yeah, don't do it. Kids will in no way care about Luther's 95 thesis', especially when it replaces their candy.


----------



## Dao

AThornquist said:


> . . . Consider Yoga and Hindus. To most people Yoga is just a certain type of exercise. People like it for what it is on a basic, physical level. However, to certain Hindus in particular it is a deeply spiritual practice. Thus, Yoga is completely different in its intentions and practice depending on the individual. . . .



I teach tai chi and many Christians believe it's from the devil. What a bummer


----------



## Montanablue

Andres said:


> Iakobos_1071 said:
> 
> 
> 
> we are talking about giving out info on the reformation with candy... I know that could go horribly wrong, but I look at it as an educational opportunity, let the kids know about the reformation and the 95 thesis. with a little scripture to go with it... Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, don't do it. Kids will in no way care about Luther's 95 thesis', especially when it replaces their candy.
Click to expand...


I agree. An alternative though might be to dress up as Luther. Kids are bound to ask what your costume is and you can tell them a little bit (yes a LITTLE bit) about the Reformation. Just don't go overboard.

Clarification: I mean that you could dress up as Luther in order to hand out the candy from your house. Not that you should be roving through your town dressed as Luther and informing the populace of the importance of the Reformation.


----------



## he beholds

Andres said:


> Iakobos_1071 said:
> 
> 
> 
> we are talking about giving out info on the reformation with candy... I know that could go horribly wrong, but I look at it as an educational opportunity, let the kids know about the reformation and the 95 thesis. with a little scripture to go with it... Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, don't do it. Kids will in no way care about Luther's 95 thesis', especially when it replaces their candy.
Click to expand...




Montanablue said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iakobos_1071 said:
> 
> 
> 
> we are talking about giving out info on the reformation with candy... I know that could go horribly wrong, but I look at it as an educational opportunity, let the kids know about the reformation and the 95 thesis. with a little scripture to go with it... Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, don't do it. Kids will in no way care about Luther's 95 thesis', especially when it replaces their candy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree. An alternative though might be to dress up as Luther. Kids are bound to ask what your costume is and you can tell them a little bit (yes a LITTLE bit) about the Reformation. Just don't go overboard.
> 
> Clarification: I mean that you could dress up as Luther in order to hand out the candy from your house. Not that you should be roving through your town dressed as Luther and informing the populace of the importance of the Reformation.
Click to expand...


Kathleen, your clarification cracked me up. What a picture. 

I think the Reformation is a great thing, obviously, but if I were handing out info, it would be simply the Gospel, rather than the 95 thesis (not that the Gospel is not contained therein).


----------



## E Nomine

A Vic Lockman tract (and some candy) would be a nice treat.


----------



## Augusta

No wonder their isn't much persecution for American Christians. They conform to the world so that there is no difference between them and their heathen neighbor.

Psalm 106:
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: 

35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.

36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> No wonder their isn't much persecution for American Christians. They conform to the world so that there is no difference between them and their heathen neighbor.
> 
> Psalm 106:
> 34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:
> 
> 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
> 
> 36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.



Somehow I don't think that we would be too heavily persecuted here in America if we stopped celebrating Halloween.


----------



## Augusta

Your house will be egged or rolled sometimes for not handing out candy. That there is persecution.  No, actually, you are handled differently in your neighborhood when you do not conform to holy days. It is noticed. Thankfully in our country this may only mean being treated differently and having people hiss at you behind your back but even on OT times that was scorn and persecution of a sort.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> Your house will be egged or rolled sometimes for not handing out candy. That there is persecution.  No, actually, you are handled differently in your neighborhood when you do not conform to holy days. It is noticed. Thankfully in our country this may only mean being treated differently and having people hiss at you behind your back but even on OT times that was scorn and persecution of a sort.



Ah, so there _is_ persecution of Christians in America after all, eh?


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your house will be egged or rolled sometimes for not handing out candy. That there is persecution.  No, actually, you are handled differently in your neighborhood when you do not conform to holy days. It is noticed. Thankfully in our country this may only mean being treated differently and having people hiss at you behind your back but even on OT times that was scorn and persecution of a sort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so there _is_ persecution of Christians in America after all, eh?
Click to expand...


Only if they don't conform.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your house will be egged or rolled sometimes for not handing out candy. That there is persecution.  No, actually, you are handled differently in your neighborhood when you do not conform to holy days. It is noticed. Thankfully in our country this may only mean being treated differently and having people hiss at you behind your back but even on OT times that was scorn and persecution of a sort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so there _is_ persecution of Christians in America after all, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only if they don't conform.
Click to expand...


I respect you all the more, then, for holding to your beliefs in spite of such opposition. My conscience does not convict me in regard to celebrating Halloween because I do not "celebrate" it in a pagan sense and I would warrant that the vast majority of people in America who "celebrate" it think of it in much the same way that I do: as a day to pass around ghost stories and consume more candy than usual. There is nothing in the Scriptures that categorically denounces ghost stories as being evil or promoting evil and so it will take more evidence to convince me that celebrating Halloween is necessarily taking part in a Satanic feast day.


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so there _is_ persecution of Christians in America after all, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if they don't conform.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I respect you all the more, then, for holding to your beliefs in spite of such opposition. My conscience does not convict me in regard to celebrating Halloween because I do not "celebrate" it in a pagan sense and I would warrant that the vast majority of people in America who "celebrate" it think of it in much the same way that I do: as a day to pass around ghost stories and consume more candy than usual. There is nothing in the Scriptures that categorically denounces ghost stories as being evil or promoting evil and so it will take more evidence to convince me that celebrating Halloween is necessarily taking part in a Satanic feast day.
Click to expand...


Thank you for your kind words. 

Let me give you one thing to think about. Do you think the Israelites actually converted to paganism or do you think they just dabbled with the heathen nation's customs while they practiced Temple worship and sacrifices? What they did was called adultery. You can't commit adultery unless you are married. 

To obey was better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. (1 Samuel 15:22)


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if they don't conform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respect you all the more, then, for holding to your beliefs in spite of such opposition. My conscience does not convict me in regard to celebrating Halloween because I do not "celebrate" it in a pagan sense and I would warrant that the vast majority of people in America who "celebrate" it think of it in much the same way that I do: as a day to pass around ghost stories and consume more candy than usual. There is nothing in the Scriptures that categorically denounces ghost stories as being evil or promoting evil and so it will take more evidence to convince me that celebrating Halloween is necessarily taking part in a Satanic feast day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> Let me give you one thing to think about. Do you think the Israelites actually converted to paganism or do you think they just dabbled with the heathen nation's customs while they practiced Temple worship and sacrifices? What they did was called adultery. You can't commit adultery unless you are married.
> 
> To obey was better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. (1 Samuel 15:22)
Click to expand...


True enough. But reading ghost stories and eating candy is not paganism. Nor are those practices associated with Satanic rituals, even remotely. Nor were they traditional practices associated with Samhain Night. 

I think that perhaps a lot of the trouble is that we are thinking about two very different things when we talk about Halloween. I have an idea of a celebration of ghostly tales; you have an idea of the more traditional Halloween celebrated by pagans several centuries ago and still perpetuated by a few Wiccan quacks who don't have anything better to do and are certainly not representative of most Halloween celebrators.

Perhaps if you told me what a _specific_ aspect of Halloween that you don't like is, I can better understand your position?


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respect you all the more, then, for holding to your beliefs in spite of such opposition. My conscience does not convict me in regard to celebrating Halloween because I do not "celebrate" it in a pagan sense and I would warrant that the vast majority of people in America who "celebrate" it think of it in much the same way that I do: as a day to pass around ghost stories and consume more candy than usual. There is nothing in the Scriptures that categorically denounces ghost stories as being evil or promoting evil and so it will take more evidence to convince me that celebrating Halloween is necessarily taking part in a Satanic feast day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> Let me give you one thing to think about. Do you think the Israelites actually converted to paganism or do you think they just dabbled with the heathen nation's customs while they practiced Temple worship and sacrifices? What they did was called adultery. You can't commit adultery unless you are married.
> 
> To obey was better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. (1 Samuel 15:22)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True enough. But reading ghost stories and eating candy is not paganism. Nor are those practices associated with Satanic rituals, even remotely. Nor were they traditional practices associated with Samhain Night.
> 
> I think that perhaps a lot of the trouble is that we are thinking about two very different things when we talk about Halloween. I have an idea of a celebration of ghostly tales; you have an idea of the more traditional Halloween celebrated by pagans several centuries ago and still perpetuated by a few Wiccan quacks who don't have anything better to do and are certainly not representative of most Halloween celebrators.
> 
> Perhaps if you told me what a _specific_ aspect of Halloween that you don't like is, I can better understand your position?
Click to expand...


I understand that you don't think you are celebrating Halloween, but what do you call it when you do all the same things as the heathen, all on the same day that they do it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's a package deal. You definitely are not avoiding even the appearance of evil. 

You don't get to just rename it and try to change it around. That is _exactly_ what the RCs did with all of these holy days. It is called syncretism.

syn⋅cre⋅tism  /ˈsɪŋkrɪˌtɪzəm, ˈsɪn-/ 

–noun 
1. the attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion. 
2. Grammar. the merging, as by historical change in a language, of two or more categories in a specified environment into one, as, in nonstandard English, the use of was with both singular and plural subjects, while in standard English was is used with singular subjects (except for you in the second person singular) and were with plural subjects. 

This is why the Israelites were told and warned not to mix with the heathens. They did and it was their downfall. We have this huge example given to us in the scriptures as a warning and we ignore it. 

1 Corinthians 10:

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness...

11 *Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.* 

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Interesting...then if I were to arbitrarily choose a day other than Halloween on which to read ghostly tales just for the pleasure of reading them, would you consider that morally sound?


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Interesting...then if I were to arbitrarily choose a day other than Halloween on which to read ghostly tales just for the pleasure of reading them, would you consider that morally sound?



Well, whether reading ghostly tales is edifying, I think, is something you need to work out. I do think we should throw out the entire thing with all its practices, except I eat candy all year.  

If you did do that on another day it would lose all its significance and that would not be a bad thing.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...then if I were to arbitrarily choose a day other than Halloween on which to read ghostly tales just for the pleasure of reading them, would you consider that morally sound?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, whether reading ghostly tales is edifying, I think, is something you need to work out. I do think we should throw out the entire thing with all its practices, except I eat candy all year.
> 
> If you did do that on another day it would lose all its significance and that would not be a bad thing.
Click to expand...


Reading ghostly tales is certainly edifying and I do not mean this in a facetious fashion at all. The early Puritan fathers wrote extensively on the subject of the supernatural, for the purpose of instructing their congregations regarding both the wiles of the Devil and the extraordinary Providences that God has shown his people. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, the vast majority of English Gothic tales were written from a strongly Protestant perspective and constantly reaffirmed a religious and highly ethical system of values again and again. I cannot recommend the 19th-century Calvinist preacher Charles Robert Maturin's novel _Melmoth the Wanderer_ enough to any member here who has any doubts about the ability of the supernatural Gothic to act as a tool for expounding on the word of the Lord. Of course, in terms of the genre, it is all a matter of personal taste, but there is no doubt that this body of works has its origins in a strongly Protestant and strongly religious point-of-view.

But, just to make sure that I grasped your idea correctly: you believe that the trouble with Halloween right now is not so much what is being _done_, but the fact that it is being done on the date of a former pagan feast day?


----------



## Philip

In fact, we don't know exactly when Samhain was except that it was around the time of Halloween. The reason that Halloween is on Oct 31 is that it happens to be the day before All Saints' Day (thus, All Hallows Eve or Hallowe'en). Certain superstitious people, remembering older traditions, then began to suppose that the night before All Saints' Day was a night when the old pagan gods and demons came out to play before the Saints drove them away. The association of the date with paganism is not all that far-fetched, but the actual date of Samhain itself is unknown because the ancient Celts measured time by seasons, not by months.

Actually, as I reflect on it, our family did celebrate Halloween one year: we carved a pumpkin with the face of Martin Luther and placed it on the front porch to scare Roman Catholics


----------



## Rich Koster

P. F. Pugh said:


> In fact, we don't know exactly when Samhain was except that it was around the time of Halloween. The reason that Halloween is on Oct 31 is that it happens to be the day before All Saints' Day (thus, All Hallows Eve or Hallowe'en). Certain superstitious people, remembering older traditions, then began to suppose that the night before All Saints' Day was a night when the old pagan gods and demons came out to play before the Saints drove them away. The association of the date with paganism is not all that far-fetched, but the actual date of Samhain itself is unknown because the ancient Celts measured time by seasons, not by months.
> 
> Actually, as I reflect on it, our family did celebrate Halloween one year: we carved a pumpkin with the face of Martin Luther and placed it on the front porch to scare Roman Catholics


----------



## Montanablue

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...then if I were to arbitrarily choose a day other than Halloween on which to read ghostly tales just for the pleasure of reading them, would you consider that morally sound?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, whether reading ghostly tales is edifying, I think, is something you need to work out. I do think we should throw out the entire thing with all its practices, except I eat candy all year.
> 
> If you did do that on another day it would lose all its significance and that would not be a bad thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reading ghostly tales is certainly edifying and I do not mean this in a facetious fashion at all. The early Puritan fathers wrote extensively on the subject of the supernatural, for the purpose of instructing their congregations regarding both the wiles of the Devil and the extraordinary Providences that God has shown his people. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, the vast majority of English Gothic tales were written from a strongly Protestant perspective and constantly reaffirmed a religious and highly ethical system of values again and again. I cannot recommend the 19th-century Calvinist preacher Charles Robert Maturin's novel _Melmoth the Wanderer_ enough to any member here who has any doubts about the ability of the supernatural Gothic to act as a tool for expounding on the word of the Lord. Of course, in terms of the genre, it is all a matter of personal taste, but there is no doubt that this body of works has its origins in a strongly Protestant and strongly religious point-of-view.
> 
> But, just to make sure that I grasped your idea correctly: you believe that the trouble with Halloween right now is not so much what is being _done_, but the fact that it is being done on the date of a former pagan feast day?
Click to expand...


I'm out of thanks - but thanks! I remember finding out how many of our ghost stories have Puritan origins and how surprised I was! Also - a side note - if you have you ever been to any Puritan or early American Protestant graveyards, you will see Death Heads on the graves. Creepy stuff (to me).

Personally, I don't like ghostly stories. I'm skittish about supernatural things. But I do think the Puritan and protestant origins of these tales are fascinating. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...then if I were to arbitrarily choose a day other than Halloween on which to read ghostly tales just for the pleasure of reading them, would you consider that morally sound?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, whether reading ghostly tales is edifying, I think, is something you need to work out. I do think we should throw out the entire thing with all its practices, except I eat candy all year.
> 
> If you did do that on another day it would lose all its significance and that would not be a bad thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reading ghostly tales is certainly edifying and I do not mean this in a facetious fashion at all. The early Puritan fathers wrote extensively on the subject of the supernatural, for the purpose of instructing their congregations regarding both the wiles of the Devil and the extraordinary Providences that God has shown his people. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, the vast majority of English Gothic tales were written from a strongly Protestant perspective and constantly reaffirmed a religious and highly ethical system of values again and again. I cannot recommend the 19th-century Calvinist preacher Charles Robert Maturin's novel _Melmoth the Wanderer_ enough to any member here who has any doubts about the ability of the supernatural Gothic to act as a tool for expounding on the word of the Lord. Of course, in terms of the genre, it is all a matter of personal taste, but there is no doubt that this body of works has its origins in a strongly Protestant and strongly religious point-of-view.
> 
> But, just to make sure that I grasped your idea correctly: you believe that the trouble with Halloween right now is not so much what is being _done_, but the fact that it is being done on the date of a former pagan feast day?
Click to expand...


Not a former pagan feast day, it is alive and well and has been passed down all these years. That and the fact that it is so clearly pagan with all the witches, ghouls, and spirits etc. Everything and anything evil and wicked is embraced. My neighbors across the street have cobwebs all over their porch with a witch on the door and a gargoyle on the porch steps. Hello! this is not something Christians should encourage and embrace in ANY fashion but should be shunned and abhorred.

We should be like Job who not only didn't commit evil but eschewed it.

I am saying that it is silly to participate in all the practices associated with the modern form, on the same day and try to say that you are not participating in the day.

It's like making cakes to the Queen of heaven in the OT. The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings, and say we just do it for the kids because it's fun and the kids get kick out of making the fire and eating the cakes, but in the same breath to say: but we don't believe in the Queen of heaven we just like to do all the same things the pagans do and on the same day as they do because it's fun. It is ridiculous.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> Not a former pagan feast day, it is alive and well and has been passed down all these years. That and the fact that it is so clearly pagan with all the witches, ghouls, and spirits etc. Everything and anything evil and wicked is embraced. My neighbors across the street have cobwebs all over their porch with a witch on the door and a gargoyle on the porch steps. Hello! this is not something Christians should encourage and embrace in ANY fashion but should be shunned and abhorred.
> 
> We should be like Job who not only didn't commit evil but eschewed it.



If they had cobwebs on their porch and a gargoyle on the porch steps for a holiday that was _not_ associated with a former pagan holiday (which apparently we do not even know the correct date of anymore!), would you believe that to be immoral? I'm sorry that I seem to keep nitpicking here, but I think that you're wading into dangerous territory here. You're basically assuming that putting up a decoration of a ghoul is an admission of celebrating the evil that the ghoul represents. I think that you would find that most people who put decorations of ghouls up would not have positive feelings if they actually saw a ghoul! If you have heard of Guy Fawkes' Day, you will know that the Protestant celebrants of that holiday would dress up as Guy Fawkes -- not because they wanted to BE a Catholic terrorist but because it was simply a part of the festivity. 

Also, the former pagan celebration of Samhain Night did NOT include putting up decorations of ghouls. Another instance of the way in which the modern celebration of Halloween has nothing to do with the old pagan tradition.

I was willing to go with you on objecting to Halloween because of its possible placement at a date close to a former pagan feast day. However, I think that the comment on Halloween decorations is perilously close to being judgmental -- and also unscriptural. You cannot continue to cite excerpts from Scripture that say that we must abhor all semblance of evil, because those would only apply if these people were actually celebrating evil -- and they are not. If you personally object to such things, then that is within your right: but please do not assume that people are acting immorally simply because they enjoy cobwebs and you don't.


----------



## Philip

> My neighbors across the street have cobwebs all over their porch with a witch on the door and a gargoyle on the porch steps. Hello! this is not something Christians should encourage and embrace in ANY fashion but should be shunned and abhorred.



Just what is wrong with gargoyles? The house you described seems rather tasteful if all they have is a couple cobwebs and a gargoyle. It's the morbid figures and skeletons that get me.

My question is this: just what false gods would you say that those who celebrate Halloween are worshipping?


----------



## apaleífo̱

P. F. Pugh said:


> My neighbors across the street have cobwebs all over their porch with a witch on the door and a gargoyle on the porch steps. Hello! this is not something Christians should encourage and embrace in ANY fashion but should be shunned and abhorred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just what is wrong with gargoyles? The house you described seems rather tasteful if all they have is a couple cobwebs and a gargoyle. It's the morbid figures and skeletons that get me.
> 
> My question is this: just what false gods would you say that those who celebrate Halloween are worshipping?
Click to expand...


My answer to your last question would be: none. But I am sure that I shall be countered quite shortly.

I have no problem with morbid figures myself -- I rather see them in the tradition of the old Renaissance _memento mori_, reminding one of one's mortality and the transience of this earthly life -- but like I said above, it's all up to one's own preference.



> I'm out of thanks - but thanks! I remember finding out how many of our ghost stories have Puritan origins and how surprised I was! Also - a side note - if you have you ever been to any Puritan or early American Protestant graveyards, you will see Death Heads on the graves. Creepy stuff (to me).
> 
> Personally, I don't like ghostly stories. I'm skittish about supernatural things. But I do think the Puritan and protestant origins of these tales are fascinating. Thanks for pointing it out.



You're very welcome, montanablue! And yes, I've been to the old Puritan graveyards in Salem and Boston and absolutely love the artwork on the headstones. Amusingly enough, those skulls are about the closest the Puritan fathers ever got to sculpting and artistic experimentation. There are some morbid figures for you! 

Out of curiosity, what stories in particular are you thinking of as having been influenced by Puritanism?


----------



## JennyG

I have a hard job seeing the innocent childish fun in "trick or treat" in any case.
Doesn't it mean "give me a treat or I'll play a trick on you"? and how nice is that??
The Scottish tradition was "guising" in which the boot was completely on the other foot - it basically meant the kids dressed up and practised some kind of "turn" to do on people's doorsteps, in return for which they were rewarded with sweets or whatever. It was still a celebration of things that should no way be celebrated, but slightly preferable.
Now the much less pleasant trick or treat is creeping in here too, and even in a little village like ours old people are frightened and hope to escape notice as they hear the noisy bands go by.
It seems topsy turvy to me for any Christians to embrace such an event, even in the name of the freedom of believers


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> I have a hard job seeing the innocent childish fun in "trick or treat" in any case.
> Doesn't it mean "give me a treat or I'll play a trick on you"? and how nice is that??
> The Scottish tradition was "guising" in which the boot was completely on the other foot - it basically meant the kids dressed up and practised some kind of "turn" to do on people's doorsteps, in return for which they were rewarded with sweets or whatever. It was still a celebration of things that should no way be celebrated, but slightly preferable.
> Now the much less pleasant trick or treat is creeping in here too, and even in a little village like ours old people are frightened and hope to escape notice as they hear the noisy bands go by.
> It seems topsy turvy to me for any Christians to embrace such an event, even in the name of the freedom of believers



Well, how Scriptural is the Santa Clause "naughty-or-nice" tradition in Christmas? Isn't that promoting a covenant of works? Unfortunately, one can nitpick something to death without actually arriving at an honest conclusion regarding its morality.


----------



## JennyG

christabella_warren said:


> Well, how Scriptural is the Santa Clause "naughty-or-nice" tradition in Christmas? Isn't that promoting a covenant of works? Unfortunately, one can nitpick something to death without actually arriving at an honest conclusion regarding its morality.


 True enough, neither is scriptural.
I would still rather see children try to get treats by good behaviour than by intimidation!


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, how Scriptural is the Santa Clause "naughty-or-nice" tradition in Christmas? Isn't that promoting a covenant of works? Unfortunately, one can nitpick something to death without actually arriving at an honest conclusion regarding its morality.
> 
> 
> 
> True enough, neither is scriptural.
> I would still rather see children try to get treats by good behaviour than by intimidation!
Click to expand...


I respectfully admit that I have no idea how the 21st-century trick-or-treat process operates in the British Isles, but I can assure you that here in America, it's the _kids_ who intimidate the _adults_ into giving them candy!


----------



## JennyG

christabella_warren said:


> I respectfully admit that I have no idea how the 21st-century trick-or-treat process operates in the British Isles, but I can assure you that here in America, it's the _kids_ who intimidate the _adults_ into giving them candy!


I don't know if we're getting crossed wires here; that's exactly what I meant too.


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a former pagan feast day, it is alive and well and has been passed down all these years. That and the fact that it is so clearly pagan with all the witches, ghouls, and spirits etc. Everything and anything evil and wicked is embraced. My neighbors across the street have cobwebs all over their porch with a witch on the door and a gargoyle on the porch steps. Hello! this is not something Christians should encourage and embrace in ANY fashion but should be shunned and abhorred.
> 
> We should be like Job who not only didn't commit evil but eschewed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they had cobwebs on their porch and a gargoyle on the porch steps for a holiday that was _not_ associated with a former pagan holiday (which apparently we do not even know the correct date of anymore!), would you believe that to be immoral? I'm sorry that I seem to keep nitpicking here, but I think that you're wading into dangerous territory here. You're basically assuming that putting up a decoration of a ghoul is an admission of celebrating the evil that the ghoul represents. I think that you would find that most people who put decorations of ghouls up would not have positive feelings if they actually saw a ghoul! If you have heard of Guy Fawkes' Day, you will know that the Protestant celebrants of that holiday would dress up as Guy Fawkes -- not because they wanted to BE a Catholic terrorist but because it was simply a part of the festivity.
> 
> Also, the former pagan celebration of Samhain Night did NOT include putting up decorations of ghouls. Another instance of the way in which the modern celebration of Halloween has nothing to do with the old pagan tradition.
> 
> I was willing to go with you on objecting to Halloween because of its possible placement at a date close to a former pagan feast day. However, I think that the comment on Halloween decorations is perilously close to being judgmental -- and also unscriptural. You cannot continue to cite excerpts from Scripture that say that we must abhor all semblance of evil, because those would only apply if these people were actually celebrating evil -- and they are not. If you personally object to such things, then that is within your right: but please do not assume that people are acting immorally simply because they enjoy cobwebs and you don't.
Click to expand...


It most certainly is a former pagan festival or feast day, I think that is undisputed.

A gargoyle or a ghoul have meaning. You can't just take a cat and call it a dog. Things have meaning or we would have chaos. These things are not relative as some would like to make them. You can't just take an idol of Baal and keep it in your house for aesthetic reasons as a Christian. A Christian wouldn't want to you would think, knowing what an afront to your God it is. 

If we were to play a word association game and I said cobwebs or ghoul what would you think of? Lets be honest with ourselves here.

To call evil good or good evil is sin. We have catagories as humans, on the one side there is goodness and light, on the other darkness and wickedness. These catagories are ancient and most know which one goes where. As Christians in union with Christ we are to keep ourselves holy and unblemished by the world: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully admit that I have no idea how the 21st-century trick-or-treat process operates in the British Isles, but I can assure you that here in America, it's the _kids_ who intimidate the _adults_ into giving them candy!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if we're getting crossed wires here; that's exactly what I meant too.
Click to expand...


True enough -- except here it happens 365 days out of the year instead of just 1. It's quite possible that if there's anything daemonical about Halloween, it is that it has turned into a racket for the candy industry.

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 03:39:38 EST-----



Augusta said:


> To call evil good or good evil is sin. We have catagories as humans, on the one side there is goodness and light, on the other darkness and wickedness. These catagories are ancient and most know which one goes where. As Christians in union with Christ we are to keep ourselves holy and unblemished by the world: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?



Nobody is calling good evil and evil good. Please explain _specifically_ why you feel that putting up a ghoul is necessarily a celebration of the ghoul -- otherwise, I feel like you're dodging my Guy Fawkes example...


----------



## Montanablue

> Out of curiosity, what stories in particular are you thinking of as having been influenced by Puritanism?



I suppose I'm actually not thinking of stories as much as a certain ideas about the supernatural world. I was thinking particularly of Increase Mather's "Wonders of the Invisible World," which isn't a book of stories, persay, but I think its had an influence on the way Americans conceive of the supernatural/ghostly world. 

I have some friends from the Boston area though (I was with them when we were looking at death heads), and I know they were telling me some supernatural stories that were from the Puritan era... I'll have to ask them which stories those were. (I want to say stories like Sleepy Hollow - but that's more a Dutch tradition (still reformed though) than a Puritan tradition.


----------



## Augusta

christabella_warren said:


> My answer to your last question would be: none. But I am sure that I shall be countered quite shortly.
> 
> I have no problem with morbid figures myself -- I rather see them in the tradition of the old Renaissance _memento mori_, reminding one of one's mortality and the transience of this earthly life -- but like I said above, it's all up to one's own preference.



Countering, on schedule I hope.  Just because something is from the Renaissance does not sanctify it. The one good thing that came out of it was the cry of theologians "to the sources!" Meaning the primary sources of the scriptures.

The reasons behind all of the morbid things from the medieval period was superstitious nonsense. Trying frighten spirits and demons etc away. I will never understand the modern fascination with skulls and death. Why would the children of light want to dwell on or in darkness? I just don't get it. 

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 03:54:00 EST-----



christabella_warren said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully admit that I have no idea how the 21st-century trick-or-treat process operates in the British Isles, but I can assure you that here in America, it's the _kids_ who intimidate the _adults_ into giving them candy!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if we're getting crossed wires here; that's exactly what I meant too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True enough -- except here it happens 365 days out of the year instead of just 1. It's quite possible that if there's anything daemonical about Halloween, it is that it has turned into a racket for the candy industry.
> 
> -----Added 10/12/2009 at 03:39:38 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> To call evil good or good evil is sin. We have catagories as humans, on the one side there is goodness and light, on the other darkness and wickedness. These catagories are ancient and most know which one goes where. As Christians in union with Christ we are to keep ourselves holy and unblemished by the world: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nobody is calling good evil and evil good. Please explain _specifically_ why you feel that putting up a ghoul is necessarily a celebration of the ghoul -- otherwise, I feel like you're dodging my Guy Fawkes example...
Click to expand...


I am not dodging, I know almost nothing about Guy Fawkes day. I will look it up.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> My answer to your last question would be: none. But I am sure that I shall be countered quite shortly.
> 
> I have no problem with morbid figures myself -- I rather see them in the tradition of the old Renaissance _memento mori_, reminding one of one's mortality and the transience of this earthly life -- but like I said above, it's all up to one's own preference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Countering, on schedule I hope.  Just because something is from the Renaissance does not sanctify it. The one good thing that came out of it was the cry of theologians "to the sources!" Meaning the primary sources of the scriptures.
> 
> The reasons behind all of the morbid things from the medieval period was superstitious nonsense. Trying frighten spirits and demons etc away. I will never understand the modern fascination with skulls and death. Why would the children of light want to dwell on or in darkness? I just don't get it.
Click to expand...


I am not trying to say that everything out of the Renaissance is automatically sound. What I am saying is that the _memento mori_ have nothing to do with frightening away spirits, as you said, but are meant to remind people of their mortality. The Halloween tradition is a little dodgier -- the pumpkins, for example, _were_ originally meant to frighten away spirits. But I was simply trying to defend skeletons and skulls as not necessarily being Satanic symbols. Or do you believe that the Puritans were wrong to carve skulls on their gravestones? 



> I am not dodging, I know almost nothing about Guy Fawkes day. I will look it up.



No problem, take your time!


----------



## Augusta

Ok looked it up. I am not sure though of why Protestants dress up. Is it to celebrate him being caught? I don't see how this would have any parallel to Halloween. I think it could possibly be catagorized as a day of thanksgiving for justice being done. A totally different thing than a day of the dead with divination and people communing with dead people or trying to scare them off or whatever superstitious nonsense is going on.

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 04:08:33 EST-----



christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> My answer to your last question would be: none. But I am sure that I shall be countered quite shortly.
> 
> I have no problem with morbid figures myself -- I rather see them in the tradition of the old Renaissance _memento mori_, reminding one of one's mortality and the transience of this earthly life -- but like I said above, it's all up to one's own preference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Countering, on schedule I hope.  Just because something is from the Renaissance does not sanctify it. The one good thing that came out of it was the cry of theologians "to the sources!" Meaning the primary sources of the scriptures.
> 
> The reasons behind all of the morbid things from the medieval period was superstitious nonsense. Trying frighten spirits and demons etc away. I will never understand the modern fascination with skulls and death. Why would the children of light want to dwell on or in darkness? I just don't get it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not trying to say that everything out of the Renaissance is automatically sound. What I am saying is that the _memento mori_ have nothing to do with frightening away spirits, as you said, but are meant to remind people of their mortality. The Halloween tradition is a little dodgier -- the pumpkins, for example, _were_ originally meant to frighten away spirits. But I was simply trying to defend skeletons and skulls as not necessarily being Satanic symbols. Or do you believe that the Puritans were wrong to carve skulls on their gravestones?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not dodging, I know almost nothing about Guy Fawkes day. I will look it up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No problem, take your time!
Click to expand...


I need links and info about your Puritan skull thing. I have never heard of any of that and would like to inform myself.


----------



## Montanablue

Traci, here is a link to a photo of one in the Boston Common burial ground - these are actually the ones I've seen. My friend had a book about them - or it was a chapter in a book - I'll ask her about it.

Winged Death's Head on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Edit: I don't know why this link won't work, but I'm attempting to fix it


----------



## JennyG

I haven't had time to read this thread properly all through! I missed that bit about Guy Fawkes.


> If you have heard of Guy Fawkes' Day, you will know that the Protestant celebrants of that holiday would dress up as Guy Fawkes -- not because they wanted to BE a Catholic terrorist but because it was simply a part of the festivity


No - that never happened. No-one dresses up as Guy Fawkes, and no-one ever did. What happened up uintil into my lifetime (not any more, owing to PC) was that the children constructed a "guy" or effigy by stuffing old clothes with straw, to represent Guy Fawkes. They would wheel it around the streets saying "penny for the guy" to all the passers-by for the few days before Bonfire night - on that night it would be the centrepiece of the bonfire and be burned to a crisp signifying what they thought of his terrorism!
Not the same thing at all.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> Ok looked it up. I am not sure though of why Protestants dress up. Is it to celebrate him being caught? I don't see how this would have any parallel to Halloween. I think it could possibly be catagorized as a day of thanksgiving for justice being done. A totally different thing than a day of the dead with divination and people communing with dead people or trying to scare them off or whatever superstitious nonsense is going on.



No one is dressing up as witches and ghouls to scare the spirits off anymore. Not everyone who celebrates Halloween practices divination either. _They are doing it to have fun being scared_, just like the Protestants who dressed up as Guy Fawkes. If that's not your cup of tea, then that is fine -- but please don't believe that everyone who enjoys Halloween is a pagan. And again, this is not the same as the Israelites incorporating pagan rituals into their own religion. _No one is celebrating Halloween as a religious holiday except Wiccans_ and that, on their part, is absurd since Halloween existed long before the Wiccan "religion". 

Again, I think that you're setting up an extreme, straw man representation of Halloween so that you can attack it when, save for a few vestiges like carving the pumpkin, Halloween doesn't resemble the old pagan festivals even remotely anymore.

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 04:22:57 EST-----



JennyG said:


> I haven't had time to read this thread properly all through! I missed that bit about Guy Fawkes.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have heard of Guy Fawkes' Day, you will know that the Protestant celebrants of that holiday would dress up as Guy Fawkes -- not because they wanted to BE a Catholic terrorist but because it was simply a part of the festivity
> 
> 
> 
> No - that never happened. No-one dresses up as Guy Fawkes, and no-one ever did. What happened up uintil into my lifetime (not any more, owing to PC) was that the children constructed a "guy" or effigy by stuffing old clothes with straw, to represent Guy Fawkes. They would wheel it around the streets saying "penny for the guy" to all the passers-by for the few days before Bonfire night - on that night it would be the centrepiece of the bonfire and be burned to a crisp signifying what they thought of his terrorism!
> Not the same thing at all.
Click to expand...


Actually, it's not that different at all. How is having a gargoyle on your porch any different from having an effigy of Guy Fawkes? They are both clearly villainous in the eyes of the celebrant -- and they are not being worshipped or perceived of as good in any way.


----------



## JennyG

as for the skulls on grave stones, to judge by local graveyards it's perhaps more of an eighteenth-century thing than earlier - I may be wrong.
They are intended to put the passer-by in mind of his own mortality, a _memento mori_
"Lord, let me know mine end, and the number of my days: that I may be certified how long I have to live..." as the psalmist says


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> as for the skulls on grave stones, to judge by local graveyards it's perhaps more of an eighteenth-century thing than earlier - I may be wrong.
> They are intended to put the passer-by in mind of his own mortality, a _memento mori_
> "Lord, let me know mine end, and the number of my days: that I may be certified how long I have to live..." as the psalmist says



That's exactly what I said several posts ago. And it's not justan eighteenth-century thing: 17th-century Puritan graveyards in New England are rife with them.


----------



## JennyG

> Actually, it's not that different at all. How is having a gargoyle on your porch any different from having an effigy of Guy Fawkes? They are both clearly villainous in the eyes of the celebrant -- and they are not being worshipped or perceived of as good in any way.


I do think it's different....the guys were never used for decoration but only to be burned. It's a very old way of demonstrating popular hatred and loathing (sometimes also done in Britain with political figures and sometimes with the pope)


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> Actually, it's not that different at all. How is having a gargoyle on your porch any different from having an effigy of Guy Fawkes? They are both clearly villainous in the eyes of the celebrant -- and they are not being worshipped or perceived of as good in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> I do think it's different....the guys were never used for decoration but only to be burned. It's a very old way of demonstrating popular hatred and loathing (sometimes also done in Britain with political figures and sometimes with the pope)
Click to expand...


Do you believe, then, that if I had a gargoyle on my porch, that I would be celebrating the gargoyle?


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> 
> as for the skulls on grave stones, to judge by local graveyards it's perhaps more of an eighteenth-century thing than earlier - I may be wrong.
> They are intended to put the passer-by in mind of his own mortality, a _memento mori_
> "Lord, let me know mine end, and the number of my days: that I may be certified how long I have to live..." as the psalmist says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly what I said several posts ago. And it's not justan eighteenth-century thing: 17th-century Puritan graveyards in New England are rife with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> sorry c - I missed that post! I'm trying to keep up while doing several other things at the same time here, not conducive to clarity.
> That's very interesting what you say about the Puritan graveyards. Here I've mostly noyiced them on slightly later stones. Either way - though the shudder they send down the spine may be identical, I think they're essentially symbolic of mortality which is good to remember - not of the powers of darkness, and definitely not for fun
Click to expand...


How, then, do you feel about Calvinist Gothic writers like Charles Robert Maturin who clearly exploited the enjoyment that his readers derived from Gothic fiction while at the same time making important theological points in his novel?


----------



## JennyG

christabella_warren said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> 
> as for the skulls on grave stones, to judge by local graveyards it's perhaps more of an eighteenth-century thing than earlier - I may be wrong.
> They are intended to put the passer-by in mind of his own mortality, a _memento mori_
> "Lord, let me know mine end, and the number of my days: that I may be certified how long I have to live..." as the psalmist says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly what I said several posts ago. And it's not justan eighteenth-century thing: 17th-century Puritan graveyards in New England are rife with them.
Click to expand...

sorry c - I missed that post! I'm trying to keep up while doing several other things at the same time here, not conducive to clarity.
That's very interesting what you say about the Puritan graveyards. Here I've mostly noyiced them on slightly later stones. Either way - though the shudder they send down the spine may be identical, I think they're essentially symbolic of mortality which is good to remember - not of the powers of darkness, and definitely not for fun

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 04:42:34 EST-----



christabella_warren said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not that different at all. How is having a gargoyle on your porch any different from having an effigy of Guy Fawkes? They are both clearly villainous in the eyes of the celebrant -- and they are not being worshipped or perceived of as good in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> I do think it's different....the guys were never used for decoration but only to be burned. It's a very old way of demonstrating popular hatred and loathing (sometimes also done in Britain with political figures and sometimes with the pope)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you believe, then, that if I had a gargoyle on my porch, that I would be celebrating the gargoyle?
Click to expand...

not quite sure what you mean. if you ceremonially burned the gargoyle, I might believe you meant to show you thought it was a bad thing. If the children here had refrained from burning the guys and kept them as decorations on their porches instead, that would also have altered the symbolism


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> not quite sure what you mean. if you ceremonially burned the gargoyle, I might believe you meant to show you thought it was a bad thing. If the children here had refrained from burning the guys and kept them as decorations on their porches instead, that would also have altered the symbolism



I can't tell at this point whether you are deliberating misunderstanding what I am saying or not. Do you really not understand what Halloween has become in the 21st century? If you don't enjoy ghost stories, then that is perfectly fine -- but please stop assuming that those who do are doing so because they are glorifying evil.


----------



## JennyG

> How, then, do you feel about Calvinist Gothic writers like Charles Robert Maturin who clearly exploited the enjoyment that his readers derived from Gothic fiction while at the same time making important theological points in his novel?


I've never even heard of him I'm afraid. I'd have to read some of his work before I could possibly answer.
Forgive me, I'll hope to catch up with the thread in the morning, but for now I have to hit the hay! lots to do in the morning. Goodnight and God bless

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 04:51:16 EST-----



> I can't tell at this point whether you are deliberating misunderstanding what I am saying or not.


no, certainly not! but in scotland it's late at night so I have to leave it for now. Apologies


----------



## apaleífo̱

Is there no one on this board with even a rudimentary understanding of the Protestant tradition in Gothic fiction?


----------



## Montanablue

About death heads:

I've found some pictures, but I'm having a lot of trouble putting links up...

Anyway, I think that books are the best resource for finding information about this, as most of the writing has been scholarly rather than popular. I did find this excerpt on University of Houston's's Digital Library though.



> In cemeteries, which were now described as "dormitories," winged cherubs replaced the grisly death's heads and winged skulls that marked early Puritan graves. Republican symbols--such as urns and willows--began to appear in graveyards after the American revolution and the discovery of the archaeological remains at Pompeii. The wording on gravestones also changed--reflecting a dramatic transformation in American views of death. Instead of saying, "Here lies buried the body of," inscriptions began to read, "here rests the soul of," suggesting that while the corporeal body might decay the soul survived. Death was increasingly regarded as merely a temporary separation of loved ones.



Digital History


----------



## Skyler

At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?

Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?


----------



## apaleífo̱

Skyler said:


> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?



 Thank you! Exactly the point that I've been trying to make for this entire thread!


----------



## py3ak

christabella_warren said:


> Is there no one on this board with even a rudimentary understanding of the Protestant tradition in Gothic fiction?



It's quite likely that you're the only one. I don't much enjoy Gothic fiction. Where should one begin?


----------



## OPC'n

This is the longest thread in history.....


----------



## Augusta

Skyler said:


> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?



Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it. 

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 05:55:56 EST-----



OPC'n said:


> This is the longest thread in history.....



I wonder what the record is? I know we have had way longer ones. The record holder is probably a goof off thread or a baptism thread.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Augusta said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word \"luck\" has pagan origins as well. Why is that \"okay\" and Halloween isn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
Click to expand...


Oh, yes I do -- until I've been convinced that the modern day practice of reading ghost stories and handing out candy is in any way connected (other than by old custom) to paganism. I would not have celebrated Halloween in the 17th century because our modern idea of Halloween as a festival for spooky fiction didn't even exist back then. But Halloween is a very different kettle of fish now and it is disingenous to pretend otherwise. Or do you not approve of celebrating St. Valentine's Day either?



p3yak said:


> It's quite likely that you're the only one. I don't much enjoy Gothic fiction. Where should one begin?


If you're thinking of Anne Rice, the Twilight series, or the current crop of Gothic fiction in general, then I don't much enjoy it either. However, the old eighteenth and nineteenth-century novels are really first-rate. I would recommend:

Charles Robert Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer

Matthew Lewis's The Monk

William Beckford's Vathek

Charles Brockden Brown's Wieland

Maturin's is the best, particularly from a Reformed point-of-view, but they're all well-written and worth a look. If you do decide to hunt down this genre, though, be warned: there are a few skunks out there, in particular James Hogg's _Confessions of a Justified Sinner_ which has one of the most unfair and repulsive representations of Calvinism and predestinarians that I have ever laid eyes on.


----------



## Skyler

Augusta said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
Click to expand...


I don't celebrate it, so that's not a problem for me. 

edit: But my original question still stands.


----------



## py3ak

Thanks, c: I'll take a look at what our local library has.


----------



## apaleífo̱

py3ak said:


> Thanks, c: I'll take a look at what our local library has.



If you have trouble finding any of them, let me know and I'll send you a link to an online copy. At any rate, I truly look forward to hearing what you think of them!


----------



## Montanablue

More information on Death's Heads. 



> The earliest of the three is a winged death's head, with blank eyes and a grinning visage. Earlier versions are quite ornate, but as time passes, they become less elaborate. Sometime during the eighteenth century -- the time varies according to location -- the grim death's head designs are replaced, more or less quickly, by winged cherubs. This design also goes through a gradual simplification of form with time. By the late 1700's or early 1800's, again depending on where you are observing, the cherubs are replaced by stones decorated with a willow tree overhanging a pedestaled urn. If the cemetery you are visiting is in a rural area, the chances are quite good that you will also find other designs, which may even completely replace one or more of the three primary designs at certain periods. If you were to search cemeteries in the same area, you would find that these other designs have a much more local distribution. In and around Boston, however, only the three primary designs would be present.



Death's Head, Cherub, Urn and Willow

And my friend sent me some links to some Death's Heads in the Boston area.

Flying death's heads: Boston Cityviews

Indian Converts Collection | Study Guide | Reading Gravestones - this site is great, because it includes the dates of the gravestones shown, so you can see how the images change from the 17th to 18th century.


----------



## historyb

christabella_warren said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, yes I do -- until I've been convinced that the modern day practice of reading ghost stories and handing out candy is in any way connected (other than by old custom) to paganism. I would not have celebrated Halloween in the 17th century because our modern idea of Halloween as a festival for spooky fiction didn't even exist back then. But Halloween is a very different kettle of fish now and it is disingenous to pretend otherwise. Or do you not approve of celebrating St. Valentine's Day either?
> 
> 
> 
> p3yak said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite likely that you're the only one. I don't much enjoy Gothic fiction. Where should one begin?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you're thinking of Anne Rice, the Twilight series, or the current crop of Gothic fiction in general, then I don't much enjoy it either. However, the old eighteenth and nineteenth-century novels are really first-rate. I would recommend:
> 
> Charles Robert Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer
> 
> Matthew Lewis's The Monk
> 
> William Beckford's Vathek
> 
> Charles Brockden Brown's Wieland
> 
> Maturin's is the best, particularly from a Reformed point-of-view, but they're all well-written and worth a look. If you do decide to hunt down this genre, though, be warned: there are a few skunks out there, in particular James Hogg's _Confessions of a Justified Sinner_ which has one of the most unfair and repulsive representations of Calvinism and predestinarians that I have ever laid eyes on.
Click to expand...



I found a compilation on Project Gutenberg

The Lock and Key Library - Project Gutenberg which has Charles Robert Maturin among others in there


----------



## SueS

This thread has offered some very interesting reading. However, I have a couple of comments/questions.....

So many on this board are vehemently against the celebration of Christmas and I understand where they are coming from even though I haven't been convicted in that area (yet). However, I'm seeing so many comments that are defending the celebration of Halloween (and I'm not even insinuating these are the same people, so don't jump all over me!) - sure seems to be a strange dicotomy on a Reformed board.

Also, there has been a recurring theme of "they're not really celebrating a pagan holiday" and that those opposed to Halloween are overusing the "flee the very appearance of evil" verses. So, if I'm not aware that I'm drinking poison does that make it less poisonous? I've done many things in my life that I didn't realize were wrong which did great harm to me spiritually. I dabbled in the occult back in my early adulthood and still bear the scars of that - the dark side is very real and making it into a "harmless" cultural celebration is In my humble opinion playing with fire.


----------



## apaleífo̱

SueS said:


> This thread has offered some very interesting reading. However, I have a couple of comments/questions.....
> 
> So many on this board are vehemently against the celebration of Christmas and I understand where they are coming from even though I haven't been convicted in that area (yet). However, I'm seeing so many comments that are defending the celebration of Halloween (and I'm not even insinuating these are the same people, so don't jump all over me!) - sure seems to be a strange dicotomy on a Reformed board.
> 
> Also, there has been a recurring theme of "they're not really celebrating a pagan holiday" and that those opposed to Halloween are overusing the "flee the very appearance of evil" verses. So, if I'm not aware that I'm drinking poison does that make it less poisonous? I've done many things in my life that I didn't realize were wrong which did great harm to me spiritually. I dabbled in the occult back in my early adulthood and still bear the scars of that - the dark side is very real and making it into a "harmless" cultural celebration is In my humble opinion playing with fire.



Well, I have nothing against celebrating Christmas either. Also, Halloween does not necessarily have anything to do with occultism - or perhaps my version of Halloween is seriously different from the kind of Halloween that all your neighbors practice? At any rate, if I had once dabbled in the occult, I would probably shy away from it as well.


----------



## Andres

OPC'n said:


> This is the longest thread in history.....



lol, I was thinking the same thing! I leave the PB for a few days and I come back and this thread is at four pages! I'm going to try to get it to five....


----------



## ChariotsofFire

After reading many posts on this thread, I still can not grasp why Christians want to celebrate Halloween. People say, well we don't celebrate it that way that the world does. I don't think it's a matter of how you celebrate this holiday. The very nature of the holiday Halloween is wrong. Its based on occultism and it still has links to the occult. It also makes light of some serious evil. Next we'll have Christians celebrating the "good" aspects of gay pride day. 

Why not celebrate a different holiday? We have a fantastic holiday to celebrate. It's called Reformation Day. Celebrate the great truths that came out of the Reformation.

-----Added 10/12/2009 at 11:48:54 EST-----



Skyler said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> At what point does something's ancestral connection with a pagan ritual become irrelevant to is morality?
> 
> Because if I remember correctly, the word "luck" has pagan origins as well. Why is that "okay" and Halloween isn't?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't celebrate it, so that's not a problem for me.
> 
> edit: But my original question still stands.
Click to expand...



Halloween is still based in occultism and evil. Halloween hasn't just become a Harvest Festival without the witches and devils and lanterns. Because if Halloween got rid of all the evil aspects to it, and it was still called Halloween, then I wouldn't mind celebrating Halloween. But since it still has some truly wicked aspects to it, I'll keep celebrating the Reformation.


Also, there is no such thing as luck. Christians should take that word out of their vocabulary.


----------



## JennyG

ChariotsofFire said:


> After reading many posts on this thread, I still can not grasp why Christians want to celebrate Halloween. People say, well we don't celebrate it that way that the world does. I don't think it's a matter of how you celebrate this holiday. The very nature of the holiday Halloween is wrong. Its based on occultism and it still has links to the occult. It also makes light of some serious evil. Next we'll have Christians celebrating the "good" aspects of gay pride day.
> 
> ........
> 
> Halloween is still based in occultism and evil. Halloween hasn't just become a Harvest Festival without the witches and devils and lanterns. Because if Halloween got rid of all the evil aspects to it, and it was still called Halloween, then I wouldn't mind celebrating Halloween.


I agree - but if Halloween got rid of all its evil aspects, what would be left?
The average un-churched child certainly thinks it's about witchcraft and the occult, and if they hadn't grasped that before, Harry Potter would have helped them out.
You might disagree with keeping Christmas, as SueS pointed out, but the prima facie point of Christmas is peace and goodwill and the birth of Jesus, and everyone knows it.
As for Halloween - if it's _not_ about the powers of evil, then what _is_ the significance of Halloween as currently celebrated?


----------



## Bern

In England, trick or treating is basically groups of kids going around threatening to do something horrible to you if you don't give them sweets/ money etc. Elderly people can be very frightened by things like that, even if it is seemingly innocent. Its just an excuse to indulge the flesh if you ask me. Kids prowling around in the dark scaring people just doesn't fit in with what is "pure and lovely" In my humble opinion.


----------



## Kevin

Bern said:


> In England, trick or treating is basically groups of kids going around threatening to do something horrible to you if you don't give them sweets/ money etc. Elderly people can be very frightened by things like that, even if it is seemingly innocent. Its just an excuse to indulge the flesh if you ask me. Kids prowling around in the dark scaring people just doesn't fit in with what is "pure and lovely" In my humble opinion.



That is NOT at all how it is observed here.

Here young children wander the neighborhood with parents & older siblings & visit the home on their street. Most every old person I know loves it!

Old widows & disabled people specially enjoy the visits of all of their neighbors with the kiddies all dressed up. It is a real friendly evening.

All of the coments about paganism makes me wonder if some people have ever seen a haloween.


----------



## JennyG

Bern said:


> In England, trick or treating is basically groups of kids going around threatening to do something horrible to you if you don't give them sweets/ money etc. Elderly people can be very frightened by things like that, even if it is seemingly innocent. Its just an excuse to indulge the flesh if you ask me. Kids prowling around in the dark scaring people just doesn't fit in with what is "pure and lovely" In my humble opinion.


I totally agree.
At least in Scotland they have the option of saying "sorry, no trick-or-treat here - guisers only!!" 
A generation ago in England I don't believe Halloween even registered much with most people. There was ducking for apples, and there were turnip lanterns (which are prohibitively hard work to make) and that was about it. It was subsumed in the much bigger and better Guy Fawkes Day, aka bonfire night, five days later. That was about a great Providential deliverance, as even non-Christians understood. 
It would be a fascinating sociological study to trace the sinking of Gunpowder Plot traditions and the corresponding rise and rise of Halloween. I know who and what I think is ultimately behind it all. It certainly isn't of God.


----------



## bouletheou

I think we Reformed Christians should just cancel all holidays except Festivus. It alone possesses true and unbesmirched spiritual value.

The Happy T.R.: Taking the Christ out of Festivus


----------



## JennyG

another comment that originally passed me by -


> ...our modern idea of Halloween as a festival for spooky fiction...


Maybe the wires really _are_ crossed - if it were really that, and only that, there might not be any problem. 
I seriously don't think Halloween as now observed (and you have to take into account ALL its observers, not just the tots doing the rounds of a nice neighbourhood under safe supervision) could possibly be described in that way. 
Besides that even if it were all a kind of one-night bookfest, still ghosts are one thing.....The occult is quite another.


----------



## apaleífo̱

JennyG said:


> another comment that originally passed me by -
> 
> 
> 
> ...our modern idea of Halloween as a festival for spooky fiction...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the wires really _are_ crossed - if it were really that, and only that, there might not be any problem.
> I seriously don't think Halloween as now observed (and you have to take into account ALL its observers, not just the tots doing the rounds of a nice neighbourhood under safe supervision) could possibly be described in that way.
> Besides that even if it were all a kind of one-night bookfest, still ghosts are one thing.....The occult is quite another.
Click to expand...


Perhaps Halloween is very different in my area of America than it is in Scotland? I know that Scotland has a reputation for the occult stretching back to the early seventeenth century...


----------



## JennyG

christabella_warren said:


> Perhaps Halloween is very different in my area of America than it is in Scotland? I know that Scotland has a reputation for the occult stretching back to the early seventeenth century...


perhaps it is....one reason I think it's important to take all its manifestations into consideration.
Not but what, if you listen in the pumpkin section of any British supermarket, you're sure to hear someone grumbling about how there never used to be all this fuss round Halloween, but antisocial American "trick-or-treat" customs have ousted the harmless native traditions!


----------



## SueS

christabella_warren said:


> I know that Scotland has a reputation for the occult stretching back to the early seventeenth century...




That's an interesting comment, especially when you consider that much of what we know as the Reformed Presbyterian tradition also came to the States via Scotland. If great good came from that place, certainly great evil could come from it as well.


----------



## Dao

Whatever halloween is today, it should be forgotten. If you do any form of halloween on Oct 31th, each year, you'll remember it, ~AGAIN~. The Catholics tried to forget it by making that day, or the day before, a Saints Day but failed. Why not forget any meanings of halloween. Can you do it or is it impossible and the devil has won? If you do try to forget it, how will you do it?


----------



## puritan lad

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this long thread, but let's not forget the most pagan Holiday of all, Easter. I know that Easter is mentioned in the only real translation of the Bible (according to some), but...

If we decide not to celebrate holidays of pagan origin, than all but Thanksgiving and the Sabbath are out, though I do love to celebrate the resurrection of my Lord whenever I can.


----------



## Dao

puritan lad said:


> . . . Thanksgiving and the Sabbath are out, . . .


 We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table but later we kill millions of Indians and drive them to deserts and confine them in a cramped area. I'm not sure I would want to be thankful for that.


----------



## JennyG

Dao said:


> puritan lad said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . Thanksgiving and the Sabbath are out, . . .
> 
> 
> 
> We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table but later we kill millions of Indians and drive them to deserts and confine them in a cramped area. I'm not sure I would want to be thankful for that.
Click to expand...

well, there's _another_ celebration for which I seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick...! 
The Scots don't have Thanksgiving (though I have been very pleased to see it creeping in among Christian students) but I always thought it was about thanking the Lord for all his current blessings, whatever they happen to be.
Only kidding, hope that doesn't sound like heavy irony, I was just amused!


----------



## Jon Peters

Christusregnat said:


> Some of the remarks about paganism dying out in the 19th Century are naive in extremis. Lord of the Rings, C.S. Lewis, and Harry Pot-head, along with the Church of Satan, the Wiccans, Odan worship, and a host of other neo-pagan practices are common in our society, and growing in popularity. Wake up people. The pagans are watching you. This is a particularly real issue if you live in or near metropolitan areas.



C.S. Lewis is neo-pagan?


----------



## he beholds

Dao said:


> Whatever halloween is today, it should be forgotten. If you do any form of halloween on Oct 31th, each year, you'll remember it, ~AGAIN~. The Catholics tried to forget it by making that day, or the day before, a Saints Day but failed. Why not forget any meanings of halloween. Can you do it or is it impossible and the devil has won? If you do try to forget it, how will you do it?



I don't understand this at all. If we trick or treat on Oct. 31, then the devil has won? WHAT? The devil's defeat has nothing to do with my keeping or not keeping certain days, nor will his victory. 
I believe, on the contrary, that my _not_ being bound to the pagan rituals, yet being free to have fun on Oct. 31, is a good thing. I am free! I do not have to worry about who did what when, because I am in Christ. Yes, I have to worry about my own heart and actions, so as to please the Lord. But because Joe Schmo worships Satan on Oct. 31 doesn't mean that I cannot worship the Lord. 

I am of the opinion that I could have a muslim prayer mat in my house and wipe my feet on it in good conscience and with no fear of "Allah" appearing, so perhaps I am radical in my disregard for the customs of false religions.


----------



## JennyG

We're always free to worship the Lord. But I wouldn't choose to do it in the context of a festival which has no ultimate rationale beyond celebrating witchcraft, vampires, death, the occult and everything dark.
It would seem too like Israel flocking to the golden calves under the persuasion that it was the Lord they were honouring.
It's better to err on the safe side I think - and the pagans _are_ watching


----------



## CatherineL

Re: the pagans watching - the pagans, from personal experience, generally think that little kids walking around with families is the annoying commercialized version of the holiday. 

To insist that letting your kids dress up and walk around getting treats from neighbors - having, at least how it plays out in our neighborhood - a night of innocent family fun that has little if any modern relevance to evil festivals - is indisputably a bad witness and sinful - which has been implied not so subtly throughout this thread - is quite offensive to Christians who have differing convictions. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed already.


----------



## AThornquist




----------



## JennyG

I don't think anyone has been offensive, have they? I certainly had no intention of being, and I apologize if I have. It's just that every time I turn away, I'm amazed all over again that Christians can see godliness in the festival that fills the shops with skulls, ghouls, witches and all the paraphernalia of horror and the occult. I can see that it's possible to do it harmlessly, especially with small children who really know nothing about what's going on - but it's the occasion itself that's the problem. What IS its point if you took away everything evil and creepy from the imagery?

-----Added 10/15/2009 at 03:40:24 EST-----



> Re: the pagans watching - the pagans, from personal experience, generally think that little kids walking around with families is the annoying commercialized version of the holiday.


....not sure I understood the implication of this, but I can't help asking- if that's the annoying commercialized version, what would that mean the real deal was?


----------



## he beholds

JennyG said:


> We're always free to worship the Lord. But I wouldn't choose to do it in the context of a festival which has no ultimate rationale beyond celebrating witchcraft, vampires, death, the occult and everything dark.
> It would seem too like Israel flocking to the golden calves under the persuasion that it was the Lord they were honouring.
> It's better to err on the safe side I think - and the pagans _are_ watching



I don't use the festivities TO worship the Lord. 
Could I own a calf that happens to be made of gold? Certainly. Can I use it to worship God? Certainly not.


----------



## CatherineL

Jenny, I mean that they are irritated with the lightheartedness, the fun, the silliness, the often overt family atmosphere that halloween is associated with. Its because, at least in most places in America, it doesn't have the meaning that the pagans ascribe to it. If it did we'd all be scared away in our beds and certainly not let our kids out of the house! Sure there's a lot of adults having dress up parties, but that's just an excuse to be silly I think. In any case, its not clear cut simply because by dressing up and getting candy no one is worshipping demons. If they were this would be pretty simple, but its just not. Its easy here to take the fun and leave out the creepy. You asked about the point - the point for most kids are candy and dressing up. The point for most parents are cute costumes, meet the neighbors. For some adults its going to costume parties. If you're delighting in evil, you shouldn't do halloween, I agree. But its not as simple as that here in the States. In any case, I get the distinct impression that we are:


----------



## JennyG

> But because Joe Schmo worships Satan on Oct. 31 doesn't mean that I cannot worship the Lord.


I may have inferred from the above the idea of Christians somehow seeing themselves as offering their own worship in the midst of Halloween, which I admit I wouldn't have thought of on my own!


----------



## Berean

Those are great shots of Father Bawb. Or is that Sister Bawb?


----------



## JennyG

CatherineL said:


> Jenny, I mean that they are irritated with the lightheartedness, the fun, the silliness, the often overt family atmosphere that halloween is associated with. Its because, at least in most places in America, it doesn't have the meaning that the pagans ascribe to it. If it did we'd all be scared away in our beds and certainly not let our kids out of the house! Sure there's a lot of adults having dress up parties, but that's just an excuse to be silly I think. In any case, its not clear cut simply because by dressing up and getting candy no one is worshipping demons. If they were this would be pretty simple, but its just not. Its easy here to take the fun and leave out the creepy. You asked about the point - the point for most kids are candy and dressing up. The point for most parents are cute costumes, meet the neighbors. For some adults its going to costume parties. If you're delighting in evil, you shouldn't do halloween, I agree. But its not as simple as that here in the States. In any case, I get the distinct impression that we are:


True I was thinking of saying much the same, I mean this isn't going anywhere!
this is my time for bowing out in any case as it's bedtime here, so a good chance to  and agree to differ.
God bless you. I'm quite certain there's nothing amiss in the way YOU keep Halloween!


----------



## Skyler

ChariotsofFire said:


> After reading many posts on this thread, I still can not grasp why Christians want to celebrate Halloween. People say, well we don't celebrate it that way that the world does. I don't think it's a matter of how you celebrate this holiday. The very nature of the holiday Halloween is wrong. Its based on occultism and it still has links to the occult. It also makes light of some serious evil. Next we'll have Christians celebrating the "good" aspects of gay pride day.
> 
> Why not celebrate a different holiday? We have a fantastic holiday to celebrate. It's called Reformation Day. Celebrate the great truths that came out of the Reformation.
> 
> -----Added 10/12/2009 at 11:48:54 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if *the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't celebrate it, so that's not a problem for me.
> 
> edit: But my original question still stands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Halloween is still based in occultism and evil. Halloween hasn't just become a Harvest Festival without the witches and devils and lanterns. Because if Halloween got rid of all the evil aspects to it, and it was still called Halloween, then I wouldn't mind celebrating Halloween. But since it still has some truly wicked aspects to it, I'll keep celebrating the Reformation.
Click to expand...


So the problem with Halloween is not that it has a pagan/occult history, but that it still is to some extent pagan/occult? Would you say then that those who participate in Halloween are taking part in pagan rituals by doing so? If so, would those same actions be pagan rituals if they were not associated with Halloween?



> Also, there is no such thing as luck. Christians should take that word out of their vocabulary.



Of course, I agree. That was just the first example that came to mind.


----------



## Ivan

Gimme candy, gimme presents and nobody gets hurt.


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## Andres

Can someone please make a poll asking whether or not you celebrate halloween, but also if you don't, is it because of personal convictions or do you think all Christians are wrong for celebrating halloween. 
I would do it, but I'm not sure how. sorry.


----------



## Bern

I can't believe how long this thread is.


----------



## puritan lad

Dao said:


> We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table



No. We didn't thank the Indians. Try again.


----------



## Dao

Jon Peters said:


> . . . C.S. Lewis is neo-pagan? . . .


 I read somewhere, long ago, that C.S. Lewis wasn't a Calvinist but an Arminian. Is that true?


----------



## JennyG

Dao said:


> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . C.S. Lewis is neo-pagan? . . .
> 
> 
> 
> I read somewhere, long ago, that C.S. Lewis wasn't a Calvinist but an Arminian. Is that true?
Click to expand...

Probably.
he seems to have believed in some form of purgatory too (see the end of the Screwtape Letters for eg)


----------



## Dao

he beholds said:


> . . . I don't understand this at all. If we trick or treat on Oct. 31, then the devil has won? WHAT? The devil's defeat has nothing to do with my keeping or not keeping certain days, nor will his victory. . . .


 To make halloween history simple: The weather gets cold, spirits from the dead underworld comes in the nearest house to get warm by the fireplace. The home owner puts food outside the door so the evil spirits won't come in. The pumpkin means: "Please don't kidnap any more of my precious virgin daughters, my youngest one were already taken by others for their satanic rituals (death by knife-human sacrifice to Lucifer)"

Today: it's the same. Home owners put candy outside so the children who dresses up in whatever they desire to represent, the demonic spirits that stalks the homes in cold weather and gets the candy. The pumpkin means, "DON'T TOUCH MY FAMILY, PERIOD!"

Summery: The home owners participate in the devil's ancient rituals by placing candy (food for spirits) and pumpkins and evil environments outside and the children represents the spirits seeking a warm place or food (candy).

My Lord is saddened by His children for believing in the spirits roaming in the underworld. Dead corpses don't have spirits knocking on your door and they are Demons. When you happily greet them with excitement, you greet demons and the devil might have won your soul. Read the histories of Oct 31st and see for yourself.
Although, I give candy to the kids but I do acknowledge the evil tendencies and role I play in this evil demonic rituals, every year. In my heart, the Lord knows I care less about the silly rituals. Knowing you're guilty and will have to answer on judgment day is probably all that matters. I'm very shameful and deeply sadden of halloween (halloween don't deserve an upper cap "H"). Go ahead and have a Trunk-n-treat on God's parking lots, it's the same no matter how you do it.

-----Added 10/16/2009 at 06:32:09 EST-----



puritan lad said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> 
> We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. We didn't thank the Indians. Try again.
Click to expand...


Oh! Sorry. I'm an artist. I just see a bunch of Indians sitting at the Pilgrims table on canvases in art museums. A single picture is worth a 1,000 words. Did someone, here, say that Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the pilgrims? Lets make a picture worth 2,000 words. 

What is Thanksgiving, again?


----------



## he beholds

Dao said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . I don't understand this at all. If we trick or treat on Oct. 31, then the devil has won? WHAT? The devil's defeat has nothing to do with my keeping or not keeping certain days, nor will his victory. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> To make halloween history simple: The weather gets cold, spirits from the dead underworld comes in the nearest house to get warm by the fireplace. The home owner puts food outside the door so the evil spirits won't come in. The pumpkin means: "Please don't kidnap any more of my precious virgin daughters, my youngest one were already taken by others for their satanic rituals (death by knife-human sacrifice to Lucifer)"
> 
> Today: it's the same. Home owners put candy outside so the children who dresses up in whatever they desire to represent, the demonic spirits that stalks the homes in cold weather and gets the candy. The pumpkin means, "DON'T TOUCH MY FAMILY, PERIOD!"
> 
> Summery: The home owners participate in the devil's ancient rituals by placing candy (food for spirits) and pumpkins and evil environments outside and the children represents the spirits seeking a warm place or food (candy).
> 
> My Lord is saddened by *His children for believing in the spirits roaming in the underworld.* Dead corpses don't have spirits knocking on your door and they are Demons. When you happily greet them with excitement, you greet demons and the devil might have won your soul. Read the histories of Oct 31st and see for yourself.
> *Although, I give candy to the kids but I do acknowledge the evil tendencies and role I play in this evil demonic rituals,* every year. In my heart, the Lord knows I care less about the silly rituals. Knowing you're guilty and will have to answer on judgment day is probably all that matters. I'm very shameful and deeply sadden of halloween (halloween don't deserve an upper cap "H"). Go ahead and have a Trunk-n-treat on God's parking lots, it's the same no matter how you do it.
> [
Click to expand...


I am sure the Lord is saddened by His children who believe in spirits roaming in the underworld. I don't hold that belief, so my Halloween practices should not sadden him--that is precisely my point. 

I think, as a sister, that if you believe that it is sinful to give out candy, you would certainly want to stop. I am sure that we aren't supposed to play any role in what we feel are evil demonic rituals. 

I was thinking about this thread and the other side's argument, which some say matters because of the witness it sends to the world. I have to say, I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!! I cannot see why anyone in the world, who is not using Oct. 31 to worship Satan or Pumpkins or ward off Spirits, having any reason to judge. My non-Christian friends do not think they are being Satanic, so they obviously don't think the Christians who practice Halloween are Satanic either. The same goes for my Christian friends who let their kids get candy. 

I cannot say for certain that this is a weaker brother issue, but what I can say is that I was given my own conscience for a reason. Sure, I want to be shown my sin when my conscience grows mute, but I think that needs to be done with Scripture Alone, and not tradition, if you really hope to bring conviction and not mere blame.


----------



## Dao

he beholds said:


> . . . I think, as a sister, that if you believe that it is sinful to give out candy, you would certainly want to stop. I am sure that we aren't supposed to play any role in what we feel are evil demonic rituals.
> . . .



Satan doesn't own Oct 31st either. If you can change the meaning of halloween, great, but to me, it doesn't look that way, for now, maybe later


----------



## he beholds

I don't really understand what you mean:


Dao said:


> Satan doesn't own Oct 31st either. If you can change the meaning of halloween, great, but to me, it doesn't look that way, for now, maybe later




I was just responding to the fact that you think it is evil, yet you do it. I think that is what is dangerous.


----------



## puritan lad

Dao said:


> puritan lad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dao said:
> 
> 
> 
> We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. We didn't thank the Indians. Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh! Sorry. I'm an artist. I just see a bunch of Indians sitting at the Pilgrims table on canvases in art museums. A single picture is worth a 1,000 words. Did someone, here, say that Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the pilgrims? Lets make a picture worth 2,000 words.
> 
> What is Thanksgiving, again?
Click to expand...


You didn't happen to go to public school did you? Art is great, but you may want to study a little History to avoid revisionism and political correctness (not that it matters much, but I'm 1/4 Cherokee).

The pilgrims didn't give thanks to the Indians, they gave thanks to God.

"We ordain that the day of our ships arrival at the place assigned for plantation in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perpetually kept holy as a day of thanksgiving to Almighty God." (Charter of Berkley Plantation. 1619)

"our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together, after we had gathered the fruits of our labors; they four in one day killed as much fowl, as with a little help beside, served the Company almost a week, at which time amongst other Recreations, we exercised our Arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five Deer, which they brought to the Plantation and bestowed on our Governor, and upon the Captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful, as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want, that we often wish you partakers of our plenty." (Edward Winslow, Mourt's Relation)

You may also want to read George Washingtons's Thanksgiving Proclamation

You may feel free to not celebrate the Holiday, but attempts to bind the consciences of other who wish to based on revisionist history is sad to say the least.


----------



## Ivan

Joshua said:


> [/quote]
> 
> Why, oh, why did you post this photo?! Now I'll not be able to sleep for days!!!


----------



## Jon Peters

Dao said:


> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . C.S. Lewis is neo-pagan? . . .
> 
> 
> 
> I read somewhere, long ago, that C.S. Lewis wasn't a Calvinist but an Arminian. Is that true?
Click to expand...


He was not a Calvinist, but that fact alone does not make him a pagan.


----------



## historyb

> I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!!



I find that Christians always beat up their own because of some ill perceived notion. Sadly even I have done that a time or two


----------



## he beholds

historyb said:


> I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that Christians always beat up their own because of some ill perceived notion. Sadly even I have done that a time or two
Click to expand...


Oh me too, me too : (


----------



## Augusta

historyb said:


> I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that Christians always beat up their own because of some ill perceived notion. Sadly even I have done that a time or two
Click to expand...


I think it's because we are all being sanctified and we all want to honor God and have differing notions of how to do that. Differing notions on how to keep God's laws, or whether we even still have to keep God's laws.

I'm not saying it is never done sinfully. We are all, in fact, sinners so that wouldn't be surprising.


----------



## JennyG

historyb said:


> I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!!
Click to expand...

nobody else has any reason to!


----------



## he beholds

JennyG said:


> historyb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> nobody else has any reason to!
Click to expand...


Well then what is the "witness" worry about regarding halloween?


----------



## JennyG

> nobody else has any reason to!





> Well then what is the "witness" worry about regarding halloween?


only that we need to show clearly, by our behaviour and attitude to it, what is unbiblical.
If Christians depart from Biblical standards in _any_ area, the world may chalk it up as hypocrisy but will probably be on the whole pleased rather than not. It will hardly be judgmental of those who after all are conforming to its own mores. Real pagans or satanists will probably be delighted to see Christians joining in at halloween! 
That doesn't make it a good witness.


----------



## Romans 8 Verse 28

LadyCalvinist said:


> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween


----------



## Dao

he beholds said:


> I don't really understand what you mean:
> 
> 
> Dao said:
> 
> 
> 
> Satan doesn't own Oct 31st either. If you can change the meaning of halloween, great, but to me, it doesn't look that way, for now, maybe later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just responding to the fact that you think it is evil, yet you do it. I think that is what is dangerous.
Click to expand...


Oh! I also broke the Ten commandments. Maybe I'm not saved. It's up to God what he wants to do with me. I don't have a choice on that matter. I don't care for halloween but those kids are too cute and ~expect~ candy. I like to know who my neighbors are. It beats me why I'm still involve with treating. It cost me $4 for a bag of candy.

-----Added 10/16/2009 at 07:12:43 EST-----



puritan lad said:


> . . . You didn't happen to go to public school did you? Art is great, but you may want to study a little History to avoid revisionism and political correctness (not that it matters much, but I'm 1/4 Cherokee). . .


 Being a descendant of Pocahontas, I must have fallen asleep during history class. Thanks for correcting me. Better to learn now than never.


----------



## apaleífo̱

Dao said:


> Oh! I also broke the Ten commandments. Maybe I'm not saved. It's up to God what he wants to do with me. I don't have a choice on that matter. I don't care for halloween but those kids are too cute and ~expect~ candy. I like to know who my neighbors are. It beats me why I'm still involve with treating. It cost me $4 for a bag of candy.



Good for you! That post just made my day.


----------



## he beholds

JennyG said:


> nobody else has any reason to!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well then what is the "witness" worry about regarding halloween?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> only that we need to show clearly, by our behaviour and attitude to it, what is unbiblical.
> If Christians depart from Biblical standards in _any_ area, the world may chalk it up as hypocrisy but will probably be on the whole pleased rather than not. It will hardly be judgmental of those who after all are conforming to its own mores. Real pagans or satanists will probably be delighted to see Christians joining in at halloween!
> That doesn't make it a good witness.
Click to expand...


I agree with you that it is a bad witness to depart from biblical standards. I just don't see how trick-or-treating is departing from biblical standards. If someone showed that, then the discussion about it being a bad witness wouldn't even matter, because just the fact that it is wrong would be enough of an argument to not do it. I guess I am speaking to the people who say it may not be pagan anymore, but it is still a bad witness. My argument against that is only Christians who are afraid of the activities judge, and not the people who do so with no thought of Paganism.



Dao said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really understand what you mean:
> 
> 
> Dao said:
> 
> 
> 
> Satan doesn't own Oct 31st either. If you can change the meaning of halloween, great, but to me, it doesn't look that way, for now, maybe later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just responding to the fact that you think it is evil, yet you do it. I think that is what is dangerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh! I also broke the Ten commandments. Maybe I'm not saved. It's up to God what he wants to do with me. I don't have a choice on that matter. I don't care for halloween but those kids are too cute and ~expect~ candy. I like to know who my neighbors are. It beats me why I'm still involve with treating. It cost me $4 for a bag of candy.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I still don't understand what is going on??
Can you explain what you are saying? 
I think you lost me here:


> My Lord is saddened by His children for believing in the spirits roaming in the underworld. Dead corpses don't have spirits knocking on your door and they are Demons. When you happily greet them with excitement, *you greet demons and the devil might have won your soul.* Read the histories of Oct 31st and see for yourself.
> Although, I give candy to the kids but *I do acknowledge the evil tendencies and role I play in this evil demonic rituals, every year.*



Maybe I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying it is a sin to give candy or not? I don't know what I said that offended you. I never said that you weren't saved or anything like it.


----------



## dudley

*those responsible for the early rituals of holloween*



Romans922 said:


> I'm going to be a Christian who protests all RC and pagan rituals!



Actually roman catholicism and pagan rituals are closly associated and the rcc worship of saints and false teaching on purgatory were responsible for the early rituals of holloween. November 1st is all saints day in the rcc and Nov 2nd is all souls day, for the poor souls in purgatory who need to be made ready by waiting to enter heaven by the sale of rc masses to reprive their souls into heaven by the saying of the rc mass ritual.

Holoween, October 31st is the eve, all hollows eve, of these roman catholic rituals which inspire these satanic superstitions as does so much of roman catholicism. It is important to emphasize to Protestant youth on Reformation Sunday October 25th the importance of the Protestant Reformation in renouncing the satanic inspired superstitions of roman catholicism.

IN faith,
Dudley


----------



## kvanlaan

> I agree with you that it is a bad witness to depart from biblical standards. I just don't see how trick-or-treating is departing from biblical standards. If someone showed that, then the discussion about it being a bad witness wouldn't even matter, because just the fact that it is wrong would be enough of an argument to not do it. I guess I am speaking to the people who say it may not be pagan anymore, but it is still a bad witness. My argument against that is only Christians who are afraid of the activities judge, and not the people who do so with no thought of Paganism.



OK, so taking part in Halloween is not wrong because we are not really taking part in a Satanic ritual, correct? What if I dressed as Anton Lavey for Halloween? An upside-down cross on my tunic and shaved bald head w/obligatory goatee to complete the look. I am not actually him, nor am I sacrificing a chicken to Satan, I am just dressing like him. No one else can really see that I am dressing up as the High Priest of the Church of Satan, and I'm just doing it for fun. And candy.



> only Christians who are afraid of the activities judge



Afraid of? Or simply that they see no value in Christian participation therein? (And worse). I'm certainly not _afraid_ of the activities, but why does a Christian take part in activities glorifying gore, ghouls, terror, etc. Where is the good in that? Why insist on conforming ones-self to the world? Because "I enjoy it". Who enjoys it? A new creation in Christ or a Natural man? Where is the enjoyment for the Christian in these activities? Can someone explain that to me? I am not talking about a Christian at a basketball game where there is no sermon at half-time. I am talking about participating in the glorification of witchery and the like. 

We talk so quickly about the fact that standing by while someone is killed is a violation of the sixth commandment. That saying nothing while people take the Lord's name in vain is a shameful thing. What about standing by while _these_ activities go on? Is there no inherent responsibility for the Christian to speak out in this? Honestly?


----------



## he beholds

kvanlaan said:


> I agree with you that it is a bad witness to depart from biblical standards. I just don't see how trick-or-treating is departing from biblical standards. If someone showed that, then the discussion about it being a bad witness wouldn't even matter, because just the fact that it is wrong would be enough of an argument to not do it. I guess I am speaking to the people who say it may not be pagan anymore, but it is still a bad witness. My argument against that is only Christians who are afraid of the activities judge, and not the people who do so with no thought of Paganism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so taking part in Halloween is not wrong because we are not really taking part in a Satanic ritual, correct? What if I dressed as Anton Lavey for Halloween? An upside-down cross on my tunic and shaved bald head w/obligatory goatee to complete the look. I am not actually him, nor am I sacrificing a chicken to Satan, I am just dressing like him. No one else can really see that I am dressing up as the High Priest of the Church of Satan, and I'm just doing it for fun. And candy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only Christians who are afraid of the activities judge
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Afraid of? Or simply that they see no value in Christian participation therein? (And worse). I'm certainly not _afraid_ of the activities, but why does a Christian take part in activities glorifying gore, ghouls, terror, etc. Where is the good in that? Why insist on conforming ones-self to the world? Because "I enjoy it". Who enjoys it? A new creation in Christ or a Natural man? Where is the enjoyment for the Christian in these activities? Can someone explain that to me? I am not talking about a Christian at a basketball game where there is no sermon at half-time. I am talking about participating in the glorification of witchery and the like.
> 
> We talk so quickly about the fact that standing by while someone is killed is a violation of the sixth commandment. That saying nothing while people take the Lord's name in vain is a shameful thing. What about standing by while _these_ activities go on? Is there no inherent responsibility for the Christian to speak out in this? Honestly?
Click to expand...


First, my conscience would not allow me to dress up like a devil worshiper on any day of the year. If "No one else can really see that I am dressing up as the High Priest of the Church of Satan, and I'm just doing it for fun. And candy," then I would think you have even more problems, since only you know that you are pretending to be Satanic, and I would consider that taking part in Satanic rituals. Now, my son dressing up like an elephant or my daughter dressing up as a bear does not glorify Satan. 

And we also do nothing to glorify gore, ghouls, and terror. Maybe you are imagining the typical Christian family trick-or-treating in a Haunted House, but not this one. 

The enjoyment for the Christian is 1)wearing costumes 2)going to a big neighborhood block party of sorts. And I'm sure the candy is probably a draw for some. 

If we did this on Jan. 3, would you still think it Satanic and an enjoyment of only the natural man?


----------



## Dao

he beholds said:


> . . .Maybe I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying it is a sin to give candy or not? I don't know what I said that offended you. I never said that you weren't saved or anything like it.



It's my fault for the confusion. I was responding to some messages with a historical background. Some knew what I was saying cause they too know the history of halloween. The below quote was posted here twice. Some would probably skip over it and not read any history about halloween. Here is the quote below:


Romans 8 Verse 28 said:


> LadyCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> This article by Rev. Matthew McMahan convinced me to have nothing to do with Halloween.
> 
> The Way of the Heathen: A Brief History of Halloween
Click to expand...


If you chose to read this, you may connect to what some are saying here. If you don't choose to read it, we'll all try to tell you a little about why halloween is the wickedest abominable blasphemous holiday of the entire year.
Lets assume you read that article posted in the quote above and at the same time you ask why is it dangerous, some, here, may wonder if you really get halloween.
Halloween is a tradition and very extremely dangerous similar to what Martin Luther were pointing to the Catholics. Luther showed the Catholics how their traditions had driven them away from the Bible into the doctrines of men. Traditions invented by popes are considered traditions given by God. Did you know that the pope ~is~ God as claimed by the highest level of Catholicism? They won't tell the public that, outloud. Anyway, halloween is a tradition and will always get us, Reformed Christians, in really big trouble. He_beholds, please take the time to read the enclosed article and tell us what you think. We would love to hear ideas about new ways to stop this evil tradition, not make it better in the same way the Catholics did to their traditions. The Catholics worship Mary through their added tradition and the reformers don't want to worship Satan through the added halloween tradition. I would rather see halloween end once and for all and I would like to see you boycott this abdominal holiday. Happy halloween? Whats ~happy~ about halloween? What are you celebrating, he_beholds? Yes! I am guilty of giving out candy as much as Luther was guilty for observing the traditions of Catholicism. I will still turn my head and point to the direction of Heaven as Martin did at the diet of Worms: [video=youtube;r5P7QkHCfaI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5P7QkHCfaI[/video]


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## Megan Mozart

Dao,

I think Jessi (he_beholds) is aware of the history of Halloween. I think most Christians who participate in it are aware of the history. They've thought this through and figured out that their conscience is clear. Jessi and others have said over and over and over that Halloween is something _different_ than it was hundreds of years ago. Today, Halloween to them is simply dressing up (for most, in non-spooky costumes) and getting candy. 

You can disagree if you want. You can discuss it too. But dear brother, I am sorry if I am wrong but it sounds like you are being condescending, and it's breaking my heart. It sounds like others are offering valid points but you aren't dealing with them. It seems like you are just feeling angry about it and repeating yourself again and in such a way to make it sound like you think those who practice Halloween are stupid because they haven't seen that is so obviously worshipping Satan. Dear brother I am not angry, just trying to point out somethings out.

Continue to disagree and discuss it but remember please that this may be one of those issues of conscience. 



This is just my little blip and I'm not going to join the debate just so you know.


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## Dao

Megan Mozart said:


> . . . This is just my little blip and I'm not going to join the debate just so you know.



Thank you for your reply.

-----Added 10/17/2009 at 10:45:28 EST-----

Can anyone here post some Bible quotes why Christians shouldn't participate in the halloween celebration? Lets let God speak for Himself regarding this.


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## Dao

Megan Mozart said:


> . . . You can disagree if you want. You can discuss it too. But dear brother, I am sorry if I am wrong but it sounds like you are being condescending, and it's breaking my heart. It sounds like others are offering valid points but you aren't dealing with them. . . .



Oh! Sorry. Forgive me. I had to re-evaluate myself here. I thought I was doing a good thing. Here's another opinion of my ~own~ about holidays. I'll try not to sound so angry here. 
As a former advertising specialist of the largest retail store in the nation and possibly the world, it used to be my job to advertise to as many people into buying more through the use of magazine ads, broadcast, Internet and other media. Through the media, we can create a world. People want to have the same thing on the TV ads and media. People say, "I want that and I want to buy it". Early, every summer, we work on an advertising campaign to make the most profits during the Christmas rush. We want to make more money than the competitors. Yes! that's called greed but to some, it's called business. My job was to try to make others feel that you love another person by buying gifts for that person during a certain time frame to copy what the 3 wise kings did for Jesus. It gives a meaning. Folks challenge each other and buy a better gifts than others. Everybody did this for many years since Saint Nicholas. If you don't buy a gift, there a chance you don't love that person according to the headlines and sub headlines of the popular medias and in exchange, they won't feel you love them. Now, Wall Street got more greedy and loaned more money to buy more toys to give folks a big feeling of expressing their love to another through the use of gifts or food. What happened?

We C R A S H E D !

People stop expressing themselves and stopped shopping. We're living in it! It's getting worst , some say. 
It's the same thing with halloween. Formally, I -used-to try to create a new feeling of what halloween is today. My job was to add fun, f u n , FUN to the game and make more money for the companies. It's like the old creepy Halloween movie where they made millions of pumpkin masks for every kid to control their thoughts on halloween day. We use candy and costumes and other great fun stuff to have a fun day and show people how they should think. My ~former~ job was to create a feeling of fun and make the most money. My budget was 30 million dollars and we spent them well and made LOTS more off trick or treaters in recent years. Its another form of greed that makes our economy worst (or temporarily better) when wall street crashes. I think its wrong to make others feel that it's ok to spend half of our paychecks for useless presents just to make others feel loved or to have fun. In my world through the marketing department and reports, I see how much money spent on unhealthy goodies and bad environments using spooky toys. I think the Bible is right. Money can be use wrongly and should be used for better useful things. Halloween is an example of useless things. Fun but for one day on halloween? Why that one day created by the Satanist? I'm not angry. Am I? I see the history of Halloween and I see the warnings the bible teaches us. I'm simply observing the situation and expressing it here in this topic of the forum. Personally, I think I'm helping the situation, not making it worst.
Yes! I did spend $4 for a bag of candy. Why? Cause some here think I should. why do you think I should?

Easter bunnies and Easter candy? That's another story.


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## kvanlaan

> And we also do nothing to glorify gore, ghouls, and terror. Maybe you are imagining the typical Christian family trick-or-treating in a Haunted House, but not this one.
> 
> The enjoyment for the Christian is 1)wearing costumes 2)going to a big neighborhood block party of sorts. And I'm sure the candy is probably a draw for some.
> 
> If we did this on Jan. 3, would you still think it Satanic and an enjoyment of only the natural man?



Why do we get bent out of shape about the celebration of other pagan holidays on this board (let's take Christmas for an instance), a holiday that, as incorrect as it may be, is meant to *glorify the birth of our Lord and Saviour*, but take a holiday that is meant to celebrate the underworld, whose most joyful celebrants are Druids, Witches and Satanists, and there is great self-justification. 

Is no-one else left speechless by the absurdity in the juxtaposition of these two examples?

If Dawkins started an annual celebration of the death of God at his own hands, in which people went around bringing gifts to each other to celebrate the destruction of a myth of Biblical proportions, would we as Christians EVER say, "well, I don't care for its origins, we just bring presents to our friends because that's the thing to do on this day"? *

God forbid.*


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## apaleífo̱

kvanlaan said:


> And we also do nothing to glorify gore, ghouls, and terror. Maybe you are imagining the typical Christian family trick-or-treating in a Haunted House, but not this one.
> 
> The enjoyment for the Christian is 1)wearing costumes 2)going to a big neighborhood block party of sorts. And I'm sure the candy is probably a draw for some.
> 
> If we did this on Jan. 3, would you still think it Satanic and an enjoyment of only the natural man?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we get bent out of shape about the celebration of other pagan holidays on this board (let's take Christmas for an instance), a holiday that, as incorrect as it may be, is meant to *glorify the birth of our Lord and Saviour*, but take a holiday that is meant to celebrate the underworld, whose most joyful celebrants are Druids, Witches and Satanists, and there is great self-justification.
> 
> Is no-one else left speechless by the absurdity in the juxtaposition of these two examples?
> 
> If Dawkins started an annual celebration of the death of God at his own hands, in which people went around bringing gifts to each other to celebrate the destruction of a myth of Biblical proportions, would we as Christians EVER say, "well, I don't care for its origins, we just bring presents to our friends because that's the thing to do on this day"? *
> 
> God forbid.*
Click to expand...


That example is just as absurd as using the example of Christmas to justify Halloween.


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## py3ak

Basta, basta.


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