# Dominion, creation and angels



## timfost (Oct 1, 2018)

Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?



1 Cor 5 -6 says we will judge angels.


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## earl40 (Oct 2, 2018)

Visible.

So far as invisible angels that is in the future.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

Would the laws of logic, mathematics, etc. be visible or invisible creation? I am hesitant to force the bible on a Platonic grid with a dialectic between kosmos noetos and the kosmos aisthetos

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## Dachaser (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?


My understanding would be that Adam was given rule over the natural created order here upon the Earth. He was given the task of naming the animals, and God stated that his rule would be over those upon the Earth alone it would seem.


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## timfost (Oct 2, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Would the laws of logic, mathematics, etc. be visible or invisible creation? I am hesitant to force the bible on a Platonic grid with a dialectic between kosmos noetos and the kosmos aisthetos



Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts _by definition_ are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).

Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all _visible_ elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.

Thoughts?


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## timfost (Oct 2, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> 1 Cor 5 -6 says we will judge angels.



But we will judge angels as those glorified. I don't think this teaches us much about the state of angels relating to the dominion of man on this side of the resurrection.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts _by definition_ are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).
> 
> Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all _visible_ elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?



We have authority over unclean spirits (which I don't believe are fallen angels)

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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> But we will judge angels as those glorified. I don't think this teaches us much about the state of angels relating to the dominion of man on this side of the resurrection.



True, and right now we are told not to speak or revile against fallen archons, as Jude quoted from the Assumption of Moses. But in the new creation we will judge the rebellious beney elohim.

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## py3ak (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?



In Christ, humanity has been exalted above the invisible realm. Outside of Christ is a different story.

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## Dachaser (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts _by definition_ are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).
> 
> Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all _visible_ elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?


Mankind was given reign over this created earth and all who dwell upon it, but Satan/demons/angels are of the spiritual realm, and thus are under the reign of God Himself.


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## timfost (Oct 2, 2018)

py3ak said:


> In Christ, humanity has been exalted above the invisible realm. Outside of Christ is a different story.



Does this exultation equal dominion now? If so, what does this look like practically?


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## timfost (Oct 2, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> We have authority over unclean spirits (which I don't believe are fallen angels)



What are they?


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## py3ak (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Does this exultation equal dominion now? If so, what does this look like practically?



I don't know that I would use the term "dominion" -- Christ is reigning, and we enjoy the benefits of that. That includes freedom from fear of principalities and powers, not excluding death and the devil, and receiving the ministrations of angels who are sent by our exalted head.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> What are they?



The Bible really doesn't say. They aren't the angels who fornicated per Genesis 6, since those are currently imprisoned in Tartarus. Nor do they seem like the archons or the thronoi against whom we war.


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## Dachaser (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> What are they?


Demons are the angels that fell with Satan in his fall.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Demons are the angels that fell with Satan in his fall.



Probably not. The Bible doesn't really tell us *when* the angels fell. Genesis 6 is a pretty good indicator, but Scripture really doesn't say anyting about a primordial fall of other "angels.". The "fallen angels" (or whatever we want to call them) are archons, kosmokratoras, thronoi--fairly impressive beings. 

Demons are just unclean spirits. 

In any case, angel is a functional term, not an ontological one. It just means messenger.


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## timfost (Oct 2, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The Bible really doesn't say. They aren't the angels who fornicated per Genesis 6, since those are currently imprisoned in Tartarus. Nor do they seem like the archons or the thronoi against whom we war.



Would you agree that whatever they are, they were first created good and then fell?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2018)

timfost said:


> Would you agree that whatever they are, they were first created good and then fell?



If we are talking about the archa, thronoi, etc., yes.


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## Smeagol (Oct 3, 2018)

timfost said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.
> 
> Thoughts?


Tim,

I think you are on the right track with the verse. Angels, as a whole creature group, seem to be a group that God has given a higher place than Man (specifically fallen man). Hence when Christ became a man he humbled himself to a lower rank than the Angels (a.k.a. the God-Man).

However; though Christ was made lower (Hebrews 2)..that was only temporary. So therefore when all is fulfilled, those in Christ will be brought higher than the angels (already not yet likely applies as well since currently a Christian's Identify is in Christ) 2 Timothy 2:12:

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;


P.S. Pre-Fall...I do not have an answer and am content in that.


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## timfost (Oct 3, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> Tim,
> 
> I think you are on the right track with the verse. Angels, as a whole creature group, seem to be a group that God has given a higher place than Man (specifically fallen man). Hence when Christ became a man he humbled himself to a lower rank than the Angels (a.k.a. the God-Man).
> 
> ...



Yes, I definitely see how glorified man will be in a higher place than angels. However, it seems that man, him now in Christ, does not have dominion over that aspect of the creation. I don't see how he would have practically had dominion over angels even prior to the fall.


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## timfost (Oct 3, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> If we are talking about the archa, thronoi, etc., yes.



Regardless, whatever they were, they fell. It doesn't seem that man had dominion over them ever, which would support the physical/spiritual (visible/invisible) distinction in man's dominion.


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## Smeagol (Oct 3, 2018)

timfost said:


> Yes, I definitely see how glorified man will be in a higher place than angels. However, it seems that man, him now in Christ, does not have dominion over that aspect of the creation. I don't see how he would have practically had dominion over angels even prior to the fall.


I agree. We can only goes as far as the scriptures and the created things man had/has "Dominion" over were/are the things mentioned in Genesis 1-2. I do not believe angels are mentioned specifically in that account.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 3, 2018)

timfost said:


> Regardless, whatever they were, they fell. It doesn't seem that man had dominion over them ever, which would support the physical/spiritual (visible/invisible) distinction in man's dominion.



Sure. If counties had territorial spirits (Prince of Persia, Greece, etc.), then it logically stands to reason that the denizens of those countries wouldn't be in dominion over the territorial spirit.


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## Dachaser (Oct 4, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Probably not. The Bible doesn't really tell us *when* the angels fell. Genesis 6 is a pretty good indicator, but Scripture really doesn't say anyting about a primordial fall of other "angels.". The "fallen angels" (or whatever we want to call them) are archons, kosmokratoras, thronoi--fairly impressive beings.
> 
> Demons are just unclean spirits.
> 
> In any case, angel is a functional term, not an ontological one. It just means messenger.


Where in the scriptures are they labeled with those terms though?


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## Dachaser (Oct 4, 2018)

Mankind was given to reign over the physical/material created things here upon the earth, while God reign includes the spiritual/immaterial created things.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 4, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Where in the scriptures are they labeled with those terms though?



Ephesians 6. 

Angel and malak just mean "messenger." Nothing more.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 4, 2018)

How could we exercise authority over an invisible realm? And the ones revealed in scripture it seems like men are prone to fear or worship.


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## Dachaser (Oct 4, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Ephesians 6.
> 
> Angel and malak just mean "messenger." Nothing more.


I do not see anyhting other then the spiritual forces of evil mentioned in there.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 4, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I do not see anyhting other then the spiritual forces of evil mentioned in there.



read it in Greek.

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## Regi Addictissimus (Oct 4, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I do not see anyhting other then the spiritual forces of evil mentioned in there.


You need to look beyond the English translations.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 5, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I do not see anyhting other then the spiritual forces of evil mentioned in there.





Reformed Bookworm said:


> You need to look beyond the English translations.



*Moderator Note*:

If you want to continue this sidebar, please start another thread. This current back and forth is derailing this one.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2018)

Continuing the OP, as both Jude and the Assumption of Moses teach us, if the archangel Michael was afraid to rebuke Satan, and Jude tells us not to rebuke the heavenly beings, then it stands to reason now that we don't currently have dominion over "fallen angels" (for lack of a more precise term).

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## Dachaser (Oct 5, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> read it in Greek.


So you would see the angels and the demons as not being in the same category of being than?


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## Smeagol (Oct 5, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> So you would see the angels and the demons as not being in the same category of being than?


David,

Did you read this?

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/dominion-creation-and-angels.96417/page-2#post-1179084


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## Dachaser (Oct 5, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> David,
> 
> Did you read this?
> 
> https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/dominion-creation-and-angels.96417/page-2#post-1179084


Yes, and I will be stopping any more postings on that rabbit trail, and will focus back on the main OP.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 5, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> So you would see the angels and the demons as not being in the same category of being than?



angels may or may not be in the same category. Anggelos simply means messenger. No, what we call demons aren't in the same category. If by demon you mean "unclean spirit," as is used in the gospel.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 8, 2018)

Back to earlier questions: do believers have dominion over angels/fallen angels? Let's look at it this way:

The girl in Ephesus had a python spirit, which Paul rebuked. So he had authority over that, at least. Yet, we are warned not to revile the heavenly beings, such as Satan. So we don't have dominion over that.


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## Nomos (Oct 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The girl in Ephesus had a python spirit, which Paul rebuked.



I think you mean Philippi, no?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 10, 2018)

Nomos said:


> I think you mean Philippi, no?


Yeah. I got that mixed up. I was thinking of Ephesus because of the papyri.


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