# RTS and Billy Graham



## Scott Bushey

Has anyone read the most recent edition from RTS and their article on B. Graham? Do you consider this another obvious retreat from the historic reformed position in that RTS is embracing Graham full well knowing that his theology is anti-biblical and anti-reformational?


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## toddpedlar

Scott Bushey said:


> Has anyone read the most recent edition from RTS and their article on B. Graham? Do you consider this another obvious retreat from the historic reformed position in that RTS is embracing Graham full well knowing that his theology is anti-biblical and anti-reformational?



First, I'm not surprised. Reformed in name or otherwise, many, many seem to have some kind of reverence for Billy Graham, and seem to completely waive any concern about his aberrant theology in favor of his "love for the people". I always cringe when I hear his name praised... and still remember vividly the Schuller interview with him in which his universalism truly came into clear view.

Second, the most recent edition of WHAT from RTS?


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## AdamM

Scott, I read the issue and in context I don't it was problematic. 

Ruth Bell, Billy's wife came from a long line of Presbyterians and her brother pastored a large PCA church in North Carolina, prior to his recent retirement. If I recall correctly, the article focused on Billy's grandson who is a PCA pastor in your neck of the woods, who I think has gotten a church planted and growing. I don't think it was meant as an endorsement of all of BG's method's, but it struck me as cool finding out that one of Billy Graham's grandson's was a teaching elder in the PCA.


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## ReformedWretch

Not to make excuses for the man, but do any of you think his age may be part of the reason he says some of the things he says as of late?


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## ChristopherPaul

houseparent said:


> Not to make excuses for the man, but do any of you think his age may be part of the reason he says some of the things he says as of late?



I don’t know. Just look at the death bed thread. There have been many shepherds who have taken their sound, straight thinking to the grave. But then again, I see your point. It seems today, old age does tend to turn people into inclusivists for some reason. JI Packer and his ecumenism efforts comes to mind.


Then of course you have the opposite end of the spectrum with little babes like Joel Osteen saying the things he does simply because you stopped nursing on the word too soon.


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## Greg

toddpedlar said:


> First, I'm not surprised. Reformed in name or otherwise, many, many seem to have some kind of reverence for Billy Graham, and seem to completely waive any concern about his aberrant theology in favor of his "love for the people". I always cringe when I hear his name praised... and still remember vividly the Schuller interview with him in which his universalism truly came into clear view.
> 
> Second, the most recent edition of WHAT from RTS?



Does anyone have any links to any articles in regards to what he believes? I've heard that he has said some very unorthodox things before, but I've never heard exactly what it was that he said.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Greg said:


> Does anyone have any links to any articles in regards to what he believes? I've heard that he has said some very unorthodox things before, but I've never heard exactly what it was that he said.



There are some resources here (updated link to the Godfrey article):



VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Erroll Hulse has a good critique of Billy Graham's theology and methodology: _Billy Graham - The Pastor's Dilemma_.
> 
> There is a more recent article by W. Robert Godfrey that is helpful too.


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## Scott Bushey

AdamM said:


> Scott, I read the issue and in context I don't it was problematic.
> 
> Ruth Bell, Billy's wife came from a long line of Presbyterians and her brother pastored a large PCA church in North Carolina, prior to his recent retirement. If I recall correctly, the article focused on Billy's grandson who is a PCA pastor in your neck of the woods, who I think has gotten a church planted and growing. I don't think it was meant as an endorsement of all of BG's method's, but it struck me as cool finding out that one of Billy Graham's grandson's was a teaching elder in the PCA.



The problem is that RTS is reformed. If the article was just on the grandson Tullian, no prob. They go on to say openly that RTS has a relationship w/ Graham and family; even going to the degree of allowing him to speak for the commencement address for son Tullian upon graduation............Would they have allowed Finney to cross the threshold as well?


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## Scott Bushey

AdamM said:


> Scott, I read the issue and in context I don't it was problematic.
> 
> Ruth Bell, Billy's wife came from a long line of Presbyterians and her brother pastored a large PCA church in North Carolina, prior to his recent retirement. If I recall correctly, the article focused on Billy's grandson who is a PCA pastor in your neck of the woods, who I think has gotten a church planted and growing. I don't think it was meant as an endorsement of all of BG's method's, but it struck me as cool finding out that one of Billy Graham's grandson's was a teaching elder in the PCA.



EPC, not PCA.

http://www.newcitypres.org/index_new.asp?str_string=Welcome~Beliefs~none


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## R. Scott Clark

Greg said:


> Does anyone have any links to any articles in regards to what he believes? I've heard that he has said some very unorthodox things before, but I've never heard exactly what it was that he said.



See D. G. Hart, _Deconstructing Evangelicalism_ and other related titles.

rsc


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## Romans922

Scott Bushey said:


> Has anyone read the most recent edition from RTS and their article on B. Graham? Do you consider this another obvious retreat from the historic reformed position in that RTS is embracing Graham full well knowing that his theology is anti-biblical and anti-reformational?



The RTS I know, JACKSON (the true one, although I wouldn't look down on Charlotte, Washington DC, etc (except Orlando)), does not uphold Graham as some hero. You have to remember RTS is split into many campuses (ORLANDO being the one which edits and publishes the magazine --> the more emerging and if I can say it liberal of all the campuses, although I wouldn't call it liberal by itself). I truly wish that RTS wasn't split up like this, but rather they be all separate seminaries (but that is a side note). So that to say this: the RTS I know does not embrace Graham, except as we accept all 'christians' and/or all people. So please remember in the future that there are more campuses than just One and that they conduct things differently.


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## Pilgrim

R. Scott Clark said:


> See D. G. Hart, _Deconstructing Evangelicalism_ and other related titles.
> 
> rsc



here is one thread among many on the PB.


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## bookslover

houseparent said:


> Not to make excuses for the man, but do any of you think his age may be part of the reason he says some of the things he says as of late?



Yes, Graham is now 88 and nearly blind. 

The Washington Post ran a really weird article (which I discovered via a link from National Review Online's blog) about there being a family feud over where Billy and Ruth will be buried. Billy and Ruth had planned (for quite some time now) to be buried at The Cove, which is a study center located in some quiet rural spot. But now, some family members are trying to get them to change their minds, because some of these family members are planning to build some kind of museum/theme park type deal (when you first go in, you'll be greeted by a talking mechanical cow!) where there's a tour which ends up at their gravesites!

Ruth, apparantly, is adamantly against it, and signed a document, in front of six witnesses, stating that she absolutely refuses to be buried there. She still wants them to be buried at The Cove. (She's 86 and her health is not good.) Billy seems to be wavering, and these family members are trying to get him to "work on" Ruth.

What a mess...


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## Pilgrim

houseparent said:


> Not to make excuses for the man, but do any of you think his age may be part of the reason he says some of the things he says as of late?



It may have some effect, but overall I tend to doubt it since he has been making occasional inclusivistic statements since the late 1970's.


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## MrMerlin777

bookslover said:


> Yes, Graham is now 88 and nearly blind.
> 
> The Washington Post ran a really weird article (which I discovered via a link from National Review Online's blog) about there being a family feud over where Billy and Ruth will be buried. Billy and Ruth had planned (for quite some time now) to be buried at The Cove, which is a study center located in some quiet rural spot. But now, some family members are trying to get them to change their minds, because some of these family members are planning to build some kind of museum/theme park type deal (when you first go in, you'll be greeted by a talking mechanical cow!) where there's a tour which ends up at their gravesites!
> 
> Ruth, apparantly, is adamantly against it, and signed a document, in front of six witnesses, stating that she absolutely refuses to be buried there. She still wants them to be buried at The Cove. (She's 86 and her health is not good.) Billy seems to be wavering, and these family members are trying to get him to "work on" Ruth.
> 
> What a mess...




Man! That is just bizzare!


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## JasonGoodwin

bookslover said:


> Yes, Graham is now 88 and nearly blind.
> 
> The Washington Post ran a really weird article (which I discovered via a link from National Review Online's blog) about there being a family feud over where Billy and Ruth will be buried. Billy and Ruth had planned (for quite some time now) to be buried at The Cove, which is a study center located in some quiet rural spot. But now, some family members are trying to get them to change their minds, because some of these family members are planning to build some kind of museum/theme park type deal (when you first go in, you'll be greeted by a talking mechanical cow!) where there's a tour which ends up at their gravesites!
> 
> Ruth, apparantly, is adamantly against it, and signed a document, in front of six witnesses, stating that she absolutely refuses to be buried there. She still wants them to be buried at The Cove. (She's 86 and her health is not good.) Billy seems to be wavering, and these family members are trying to get him to "work on" Ruth.
> 
> What a mess...


I read the same thing in the Buffalo News online while looking up Sabres stuff. It won't be long before we see this: 

Oh, the saga continues...


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## Richard King

Oh thats just great! So my idea of a talking mechanical cow at my gravesite has been taken by someone already?


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## Staphlobob

houseparent said:


> Not to make excuses for the man, but do any of you think his age may be part of the reason he says some of the things he says as of late?



I don't think so. He was spouting his Arminian self-esteemist fluff back in the late '60s and early '70s. Growing his hair and sideburns in order to appeal to the Pepsi generation, he was even then encouraging hippies to turn on, tune in, and drop out to Jesus Christ.


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## puritan reformed

Romans922 said:


> The RTS I know, JACKSON (the true one, although I wouldn't look down on Charlotte, Washington DC, etc (except Orlando)), does not uphold Graham as some hero. You have to remember RTS is split into many campuses (ORLANDO being the one which edits and publishes the magazine --> the more emerging and if I can say it liberal of all the campuses, although I wouldn't call it liberal by itself). I truly wish that RTS wasn't split up like this, but rather they be all separate seminaries (but that is a side note). So that to say this: the RTS I know does not embrace Graham, except as we accept all 'christians' and/or all people. So please remember in the future that there are more campuses than just One and that they conduct things differently.



RTS Jackson does embrace Billy. All one has to do is take a tour of the library in Jackson and see the bust of Billy's head in the center of the library (over by the newspapers Barnes). Also, see the comments in the seminary threads about RTS Jackson's embrace of integrated psychology instead of Biblical counseling and you'll see the trend toward liberalism. Which is a whole other topic, just using it as a case in point here.


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## Scott Bushey

As well, the contact information on the back cover states:

*Reformed Theological Seminary Magazine*
5422 Clinton Boulevard
Jackson, MS 39209


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## Scott Bushey

toddpedlar said:


> First, I'm not surprised. Reformed in name or otherwise, many, many seem to have some kind of reverence for Billy Graham, and seem to completely waive any concern about his aberrant theology in favor of his "love for the people". I always cringe when I hear his name praised... and still remember vividly the Schuller interview with him in which his universalism truly came into clear view.
> 
> Second, the most recent edition of WHAT from RTS?



Todd,
RTS has a quarterly called, RTS REFORMED; "A mind for truth, a heart for God"


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## fredtgreco

puritan reformed said:


> RTS Jackson does embrace Billy. All one has to do is take a tour of the library in Jackson and see the bust of Billy's head in the center of the library (over by the newspapers Barnes). Also, see the comments in the seminary threads about RTS Jackson's embrace of integrated psychology instead of Biblical counseling and you'll see the trend toward liberalism. Which is a whole other topic, just using it as a case in point here.



This is a misleading statement. RTS has neither embraced integrated psychology (as a entire campus, and especially the Biblical and Theological faculty) nor is it in any stretch of the imagination liberal or tending toward liberalism. I have my own issues with the counseling department (and they coincide with yours), but the Biblical and Theological faculty are first rate.


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## puritan reformed

Yes, I agree Fred. I should not have perverbally painted with such broad strokes.


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## fredtgreco

puritan reformed said:


> Yes, I agree Fred. I should not have perverbally painted with such broad strokes.



Thanks. And you are correct to be concerned about the counseling program.


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## Scott Bushey

fredtgreco said:


> ..........but the Biblical and Theological faculty are first rate.


Fred,
With all due respect, If this is correct, how is it that they allow for a magazine w/ their name on it to place such an article?


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## turmeric

Thunderation! A talkin' cow an' all? Maybe they'll call it Graham-land! You know, just like Graceland. And they can have a recording of someone saying, "Billy has left the stadium."


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## gwine

Richard King said:


> Oh thats just great! So my idea of a talking mechanical cow at my gravesite has been taken by someone already?



Ha. Bob Vigneault probably thought of it before you did, anyway.


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## JoeRe4mer

Scott Bushey said:


> Has anyone read the most recent edition from RTS and their article on B. Graham? Do you consider this another obvious retreat from the historic reformed position in that RTS is embracing Graham full well knowing that his theology is anti-biblical and anti-reformational?


 
Do you have a link? I would love to read that artical...
Also What I have found in my travels (which I'm sure you can relate to) is that when it comes to many so called "REFORMED" churches and denominations they may honer the Lord with their mouth but their hearts and their doctrines are far from him...
I find the best thing to do is take every church on an individual level and learn what the pastors are teaching and if they really hold to the confessions they claim.


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## johnny_redeemed

puritan reformed said:


> Also, see the comments in the seminary threads about RTS Jackson's embrace of integrated psychology instead of Biblical counseling and you'll see the trend toward liberalism.



I agree fully with this. I have heard of some unbiblical practices going on at the consoling center at RTS.


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## Romans922

I have been glad to see some godly women who go into the program are quitting the program after finding out what it is about. I was able to give advice to one and told her to go talk to her elders and some of the Biblical/Theological Faculty. After she talked to them I got their opinion on the integrated program which was not necessarily positive.


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## No Longer A Libertine

I will say this one grapevine hearsay I know of Graham in his defense although if it is true it means he is not simply theologically wrong but instead a coward.

It has been told to me second-hand mind you, that an Elder at an EPC church my good friend once attended was once on commitee with his organization and that privately he adehered to the doctrines of grace but did not know how to translate that into his crusades.

If this is true and my sources have no reason to fabricate it, he is what John MacArthur called "Ashamed of the Gospel" and is a coward in my book.

To know the truth and not tell the world, the presidents, the statesmen, the media personalities, the mega-churchists about Christ truthfully is scandalous and his genuine trust in Christ is made questionable.


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