# Antidepressants



## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 3, 2005)

I would be interested if anyone has information on the relationship between certain antidepressants (like Zoloft) and suicide. A link has been reported in the news lately and I am aware of a potential class action lawsuit, but I would welcome comments from any additional informed sources. Thanks.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 3, 2005)

http://www.zoloft.com/PFIZERstatement on AD.pdf

My opinion, SSRI's are generally safe. Lexapro, Zoloft and Prozac are a few.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks, Scott. Do you have any thoughts on this article?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33389-2005Feb17.html


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 3, 2005)

One things I learned in some psych nurse training, is that people who are suicidal are more likely to commit suicide once they begin anti-depressents because they now have the energy to carry out their plans. But this was just from a psych nurse who trained us, not from any research I read personally.

[Edited on 3-3-2005 by puritansailor]


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 3, 2005)

Andrew, 

My experience is that these drugs numb the conscience. Especially if someone consumes alcohol. I have seen more people lose the guard rails of conscience while taking these drugs after a long period of time. One of my closest friends has his degree in psyche counseling. He affirmed that these drugs can upset the balance of conscience while trying to balance it. I believe this has happened to my ex-wife.


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## Puritanhead (Mar 3, 2005)

I don't need Prozac, I've got Jesus! 


Psychotrophic drugs are bad news.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> I don't need Prozac, I've got Jesus!
> 
> 
> Psychotrophic drugs are bad news.



 Drugs are bad, mmmkay?


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 3, 2005)

Drugs are not bad..........Do you take aspirin or tylenol? Abuse is bad! 

Gen 37:25 Then they sat down to eat. And looking up they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing gum, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry it down to Egypt. 

Gen 43:11 Then their father Israel said to them, "If it must be so, then do this: take some of the choice fruits of the land in your bags, and carry a present down to the man, a little balm and a little honey, gum, myrrh, pistachio nuts, and almonds. 

Jer 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of the daughter of my people not been restored? 

Jer 46:11 Go up to Gilead, and take balm, O virgin daughter of Egypt! In vain you have used many medicines; there is no healing for you. 

Jer 51:8 Suddenly Babylon has fallen and been broken; wail for her! Take balm for her pain; perhaps she may be healed. 

Eze 27:17 Judah and the land of Israel traded with you; they exchanged for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, meal, honey, oil, and balm.

Timothy used wine for his stomach. Jesus was our first apothecarian, using mud and spit!

[Edited on 3-3-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 3, 2005)

Andrew,
Cut and paste the article..........


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> Drugs are bad, mmmkay?


man :bigsmile: how long did you take to kick the southpart habit :bigsmile: What would Brian Boytano do? man after coming to Christ the things I had to give up, but I would say it was worth it, since I get my reading on of the major theological works.


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 3, 2005)

Antidepressants would work if the person is motivated to get better while having the proper counselling to support him or her.

I wouldn't discount Mental Illness as a sickness since Jesus was said to heal every disease that was common to 1st century Israel. And if it was healed there must be some physical medicinal approach in the least to ameliorate the situation


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## Scot (Mar 3, 2005)

> Drugs are not bad..........Do you take aspirin or tylenol? Abuse is bad!
> 
> Gen 37:25 Then they sat down to eat. And looking up they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing gum, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry it down to Egypt.
> 
> ...



If you are going to use the things that these verses are speaking of then I say "yes, drugs are good." Unfortunately, these things are generally not used today. Drugs used today are man made chemicals that interfere with the body's functioning. They may use herbs but they add synthetic chemicals in order to patent them. This is when you run into trouble.

P.S. I don't take aspirin or tylenol. 

As far as depression or a chemical imbalance, people need to realize that what they put into their mouths (food) directly effects their biochemistry.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Drugs are not bad..........Do you take aspirin or tylenol? Abuse is bad!



I was partially joking (hence the mmmkay), and to the extent that it was serious, I was only referring to those of a psychotropic nature (as mentioned in Ryan's post), basically for the same reason I'm suspicious of the psychology used in so much "Christian" counseling.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Scot (Mar 3, 2005)

Secret US report surfaces on antidepressants in children 
Jeanne Lenzer 
New York 7 aug 2004

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7461/307

Internal memos and a secret government report about the negative effects of antidepressants in children"”suppressed by the US Food and Drug Administration"”have surfaced publicly. 

The Alliance for Human Research Protection, a national network dedicated to ensuring ethical standards in medical research, published the documents on 26 July. 

The published documents confirm earlier news accounts that a government expert with the FDA's Office of Drug Safety, Dr Andrew Mosholder, found that children taking antidepressants were twice as likely to become suicidal as children taking placebo. He reportedly urged the agency to follow the lead of British health authorities by warning doctors that the risks of the newer antidepressants, except fluoxetine, might outweigh the benefits when used in children. 

The leaked documents show his data and conclusions. The FDA has subsequently acknowledged to the BMJ that Dr Mosholder was prevented from presenting his report at an advisory committee meeting on 2 February and was told that if he was asked any questions during the meeting he could respond to queries only by using a prepared script approved by his supervisors. 

Dr Mosholder had evaluated data from 22 studies using nine drugs in 4250 children and found that 74 of the 2298 children taking antidepressants had a "suicide related event" compared with 34 of the 1952 children taking placebos. 

When questioned about the decision to suppress Dr Mosholder's report, Dr Robert Temple, associate director for medical policy in the FDA's drug evaluation centre, defended the agency's actions. "We thought the analysis was premature," he told the BMJ. 

Both the raw data and Dr Mosholder's interpretation were "imperfect" said Dr Temple, adding that some of the behaviours labelled "suicidal" were highly suspect and could have been accidents, such as a child "who hit her head with her hand." FDA officials acknowledged, however, that some cases classified as "accidental injury" could be suicide related. Because of this, the FDA has contracted with Columbia University to further study and classify events that might be considered to be suicide related. 

Some of these events, he added, such as superficial cutting, "might be due to anxiety" and not represent true suicidal intent. 

Dr Thomas Laughren, the FDA's team leader for psychiatric drug products, told the BMJ that he had reported the relative risk ratios of all the drugs evaluated at the advisory meeting and that it was Dr Mosholder's conclusions, and not the data, that were withheld. 

Responding to critics who say studies of antidepressants other than fluoxetine show little or no efficacy in children, Dr Temple said absence of proof should not be interpreted to mean the drugs are ineffective. 

Dr Jerome Hoffman, an epidemiologist and professor of medicine at the University of California at Los Angeles, told the BMJ that the flip side of Dr Temple's claim that antidepressants in children could be life-saving is that they could be life threatening"”as suggested by Dr Mosholder's report. 

"Most Americans undoubtedly believe that the FDA demands reasonable evidence that a drug is safe before it is allowed to be used," said Professor Hoffman. "But this episode suggests that they reject this `precautionary principle' in favour of the idea that no drug is dangerous unless it is `proven' to be so." 

"The FDA... attempted to silence Dr Mosholder [but] repeatedly claimed to `support his concern' for the safety of children," added Professor Hoffman, "but this apparently didn't extend to supporting his desire to express that concern publicly. That may be the most dangerous aspect of this entire affair." 

The FDA has launched a criminal investigation to find out which employees leaked Dr Mosholder's report. Meanwhile the suppression of the report has triggered Congressional investigations by Senator Charles Grassley, who has interviewed employees in the agency's Office of Drug Safety, where Dr Mosholder worked.


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## future expatriate (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> 
> 
> As far as depression or a chemical imbalance, people need to realize that what they put into their mouths (food) directly effects their biochemistry.


I can testify that much from my own life. Last spring I was extremely depressed because of an imbalance, but after only two weeks of a healthy diet (it turns out that I was pretty malnourished at the time), I was signifigantly better. It wasn't a cure-all, but a balanced diet works wonders.


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## RamistThomist (Mar 3, 2005)

I used to take Zoloft but I stopped. I was a border-line case (situational/circumstantial depression). If you don't need it don't take it. Perhaps chemically influenced medicine have their place--I don't deny that for the moment-- but there is a tendency, especially at my school, to use prescriptions as a panacea. _Christian Atheist_ magazine, _Christian Century_, I mean, did an article, "Prozac, the God of AMerica," or something like that. Normally I despise anything CC says, and I didn't read the article, but who knows, a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Andrew,
> Cut and paste the article..........



Drugs Raise Risk of Suicide
Analysis of Data Adds to Concerns On Antidepressants

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 18, 2005; Page A01

Adults taking popular antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft are more than twice as likely to attempt suicide as patients given sugar pills, according to an analysis released yesterday of hundreds of clinical trials involving tens of thousands of patients.

The results mirror a recent finding of the Food and Drug Administration that the drugs increase suicidal thoughts and behavior among some children, and offer tangible support to concerns going back 15 years that the mood-lifting pills have a dark side.

The examination of 702 controlled clinical trials involving 87,650 patients is the most comprehensive look at the subject and is particularly telling because it counted suicide attempts and included patients treated for a variety of conditions, including sexual dysfunction, bulimia, panic disorder and depression.

Experts cautioned, however, that the risks should be balanced against the drugs' benefits. They have been shown to be effective against depression and a host of other disorders in adults, a positive track record largely missing in tests of the drugs on children.

Adults with severe depression should continue to be considered for drug treatment, but those with milder symptoms should probably not be medicated, said John Geddes, a professor of epidemiological psychiatry at Oxford University, who wrote a commentary accompanying the studies.

"For a lot of time, these drugs were seen as a panacea for low mood in general," he said in a telephone interview. "We do need to ensure they are only prescribed for patients with clearly diagnosed depressive disorders."

The new study is certain to add to the controversy over the class of drugs known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRI's. After the arrival of Prozac in 1988, these drugs have transformed psychiatry in the United States, even as persistent critics have warned that their benefits were hyped and their risks ignored. A spate of lawsuits in recent years have claimed that the drugs were responsible for violent and suicidal behavior.

New analyses of clinical trials in children last year prompted FDA to require a prominent black-box warning on labels that the medications could increase the risk of suicide. The warning refers only to children but is given to all patients.

American psychiatrists continue to strongly back SSRI drugs. Groups such as the American Psychiatric Association say that fears of drug-induced suicide are vastly exaggerated and that untreated depression carries a far greater risk of suicide.

"If these medications were really increasing the incidence of suicide attempts, you would think we would be seeing more completed suicides," said David Fassler, an APA trustee and psychiatrist in Burlington, Vt. "In fact, we are seeing exactly the opposite."

Adolescent suicide rates have dropped 25 percent since the early 1990s, even as more than a million children were put on the drugs, Fassler said. Although no one can say for sure what the connection is between those two trends, Fassler said, "if the medications were significantly increasing the risk of suicide, it is unlikely we would be seeing this kind of decline over time."

The new analysis seems likely to deepen transatlantic divisions over how the drugs are perceived and prescribed: British authorities last year recommended that depressed patients who were able function at home and work should not be medicated right away, but should be counseled to try exercise, self-help, talk therapy -- or watchful waiting.

David Healy, a psychiatrist at the University of Wales who helped conduct the new study, said managed-care insurance companies in the United States were not likely to look kindly upon physicians who monitor patients without prescribing drugs.

Healy prescribes the drugs but has long raised red flags about them. He asked yesterday why scientists at the FDA and research universities had not previously conducted this analysis, given that the data have long been available.

"For whatever reason, an awful lot of people didn't want to think there was a risk," he said.

FDA officials have said they are conducting an independent analysis.

The new study was conducted by epidemiologist Dean Fergusson and his colleagues at the Ottawa Health Research Institute and included scientists from McGill University. It is published in the current issue of the British Medical Journal along with two related articles and a commentary by Geddes and University of Verona psychiatrists Andrea Cipriani and Corrado Barbui.

Scientists have long bemoaned the lack of high-quality studies on antidepressants and the risk of suicide. One of the new studies, by University of Bristol and University of London researchers, examined drug trials submitted by pharmaceutical companies to British regulators. It found some evidence of self-harm among patients taking antidepressants but was inconclusive as to whether the drugs increased the risk of completed suicides.

A third study found no difference in suicide risk between SSRI drugs and an earlier class of medications known as tricyclic antidepressants.

Complicating the picture is the fact that suicide is rare -- meaning that it takes very large studies to yield definitive results. Fergusson's meta-analysis pooled data from a large number of studies in the same manner as the recent FDA analysis involving children's trials.

The American Psychiatric Association's Fassler said such an approach could miscount the number of attempted suicides. He said depressed patients who were getting better as a result of medication might be more likely to tell doctors about a suicide attempt, thereby muddying the data.

While Fergusson agreed that better trials are needed, he said he was confident about the results of this analysis, because it relied on placebo-controlled trials -- considered the most definitive. And not all the patients getting drugs were being treated for depression, he said -- there was evidence of increased risk of suicide attempts for patients with all kinds of disorders.

Suicide "is uncommon but serious," Fergusson said in an interview. "The biggest concern is these drugs are widely prescribed. There are millions of people on the drugs, so even a risk of one in a 1,000 when you amplify it to the millions, it becomes a public health issue."


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## Scot (Mar 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by future expatriate_
> I can testify that much from my own life. Last spring I was extremely depressed because of an imbalance, but after only two weeks of a healthy diet (it turns out that I was pretty malnourished at the time), I was signifigantly better. It wasn't a cure-all, but a balanced diet works wonders.





An article you might find interesting: http://www.doctoryourself.com/depression.html


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 3, 2005)

Im on the generic form of welbutrin(sp?) called budeprin and yes it helps my dad was bipolar and so is my sister.

I  scott bushey not all drugs are bad even if some have abused them. If I diddnt have Jesus and depression is only a one of my problems I probably would be alot worse or dead. 

My motto is believe in Jesus no matter what no matter how bad it gets or how bad I screw up never let go.

blade

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Bladestunner316]


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 3, 2005)

healthy diets do help alot.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 3, 2005)

In the same way Scot is presupposing that patients w/ psychological conditions have an imbalance in their homeopathy, I am presupposing that they do not. Medicine measures imbalances according to numbers established by medicine. Osteopaths use the same measuring system. Doctors do not prescribe these medicines unless the typicals are not within normal perameters.


I suggest not "doctoring" yourself; you have no degree to claim the responsibility.

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scot (Mar 3, 2005)

> In the same way Scot is presupposing that patients w/ psychological conditions have an imbalance in their homeopathy, I am presupposing that they do not. Medicine measures imbalances according to numbers established by medicine. Osteopaths use the same measuring system. Doctors do not prescribe these medicines unless the typicals are not within normal perameters.
> 
> 
> I suggest not "doctoring" yourself; you have no degree to claim the responsibility.



Kinda like Rome discouraging "the common people" from reading the scripture. They weren't qualified. Meanwhile, the so called biblical scholars of Rome were misleading the people.

If you're not educated on natural approaches, there are Naturopathic Doctors who are trained in helping the body get back to normal rather than covering symptoms with drugs. Licensed (or licensable) ND's are trained in both allopathic and natural medicine and have a wider knowledge base than just "a pill for an ill."


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 3, 2005)

on naturalpaths


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 4, 2005)

I appreciate your comments, folks. Lots of food for thought.


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

[/quote]
Unfortunately, these things are generally not used today. Drugs used today are man made chemicals that interfere with the body's functioning. They may use herbs but they add synthetic chemicals in order to patent them. This is when you run into trouble.


As far as depression or a chemical imbalance, people need to realize that what they put into their mouths (food) directly effects their biochemistry. [/quote]



Ezekial 47:12 "...and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine." I am homeopathic all the way! 

Proper diet is key - and we also can't ignore that depression is many times the result of a sinful attitude. I don't like calling what is SIN just an illness that can be cured by a pill. To make myself clear, I'm NOT saying that there isn't a place for medicine or that there is no such thing as chemical or mental imbalance. 

Dr. Jay Adams is one of my favorite authors. His Nouthetic Counseling method exposes the counselees' sins as the root of their problems. Distrust, anger, resentment, and self-pity are often the cause of depression. For anyone interested, I strongly suggest reading his books on Christian counseling & family life


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> Unfortunately, these things are generally not used today. Drugs used today are man made chemicals that interfere with the body's functioning.



All of them? This assertion is false. Many medicines are derived naturally. The standardization is controlled and far safer than the naturalist sector, which has no control generally.



> They may use herbs but they add synthetic chemicals in order to patent them. This is when you run into trouble.



This is solely opinion. Do you use Tylenol or aspirin?




> As far as depression or a chemical imbalance, people need to realize that what they put into their mouths (food) directly effects their biochemistry.



I agree, however, the average joe puts the same thing in his mouth and he is not suffering w/ conditions we are addressing. The general populus eats poorly. If we follow your line of rationale, one could effectively link poor eating habits with depression and the like. Which in turn could easily be alleviated by proper diet etc. Enough studies have been performed upon diet and depression; with very few concluding that the root of the problem rested in nutrition.




> Ezekial 47:12 "...and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine." I am homeopathic all the way!



Do you shop at a organic grocer? If not, you are getting chemicals and preservatives in all that you eat. 



> Proper diet is key




Proper diet is important. I don't think anyone will argue that. However, it is not key. The genetic strand is key.




> and we also can't ignore that depression is many times the result of a sinful attitude.



I agree that some of it is the result of the fall. However, if it is sin, and not medical, why is it that medicine clears up the majority of the symptomotology?



> I don't like calling what is SIN just an illness that can be cured by a pill.



If it can be cured by a pill, is it possible that it is not spiritual? Paul had a thorn; God left it there for his well being. God saw fit!




> To make myself clear, I'm NOT saying that there isn't a place for medicine or that there is no such thing as chemical or mental imbalance.



I appreciate this.



> Dr. Jay Adams is one of my favorite authors. His Nouthetic Counseling method exposes the counselees' sins as the root of their problems.



Sin is at the root. The fall!



> Distrust, anger, resentment, and self-pity are often the cause of depression. For anyone interested, I strongly suggest reading his books on Christian counseling & family life



I suffer from all of these from time to time. I have even had thoughts of putting a bullet in my head; I don't go out and do it, I pray. I claim the blood over me. I am obedient. God commands, I respond.

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> 
> 
> > In the same way Scot is presupposing that patients w/ psychological conditions have an imbalance in their homeopathy, I am presupposing that they do not. Medicine measures imbalances according to numbers established by medicine. Osteopaths use the same measuring system. Doctors do not prescribe these medicines unless the typicals are not within normal perameters.
> ...



Scot,
They have a name in the respected medical communities as 'quacks' and what they practice as 'quackery'. 

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quackdef.html

Tell me why the title's they hold are not professional? 


M.D.s whom practice homeopathy, correctly blend their craft with naturalistic precepts. They see the genetic strand in their theory. They acknowledge things in the equation that the naturalist is not trained in acklnowledging.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altwary.html



[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

OK, I'm having trouble qoting the quotes, so bear with me!

"Do you shop at a organic grocer? If not, you are getting chemicals and preservatives in all that you eat."

I do shop at an organic grocer. My mother has cancer & this change in diet is a necessary part of her treatment.

"Proper diet is important. I don't think anyone will argue that. However, it is not key. The genetic strand is key."


Could you explain this? I'm not sure why the genetic strand is key because I do not know what it is.

"I agree that some of it is the result of the fall. However, if it is sin, and not medical, why is it that medicine clears up the majority of the symptomotology?If it can be cured by a pill, is it possible that it is not spiritual?"

I would argue that the whole of it is the result of the fall (sin and pestilence being absent until that point). Part of my argument is that the medicines clear up the symptoms without getting at the root of the problem. It hasn't really done the person any favors until the root of the problem is addressed. Before I had my wisdom teeth removed, I would get these really bad headaches. I would take Excedrin to relieve the pain. But the headaches (and gum swelling  )didn't go away until my teeth had been extracted. That's more of the point I'm tring to make. I'm not trying to upset or offend anyone. I just think that too often people stop at taking medication (because it dulls the symptoms) without continuing to fix the spiritual issues that are also affecting them. 

"I suffer from all of these from time to time. I have even had thoughts of putting a bullet in my head; I don't go out and do it, I pray. I claim the blood over me. I am obedient. God commands, I respond."

You're actually making my point. It is Christ in His righteousness and obedience to God that are the required response - maybe our opinions are not as opposed as they seem. 

Erin

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by MissSolaFide]


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> OK, I'm having trouble qoting the quotes, so bear with me!
> 
> "Do you shop at a organic grocer? If not, you are getting chemicals and preservatives in all that you eat."
> ...




Do you not believe it possible that God decree's that I am on heart medicine?


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

I don't know what part of my post would lead you to believe that. Could you specifiy?


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## Puritanhead (Mar 4, 2005)

*Say No to Drugs*



> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Drugs are not bad..........Do you take aspirin or tylenol? Abuse is bad!



With due respect, there is a marked difference between pain relievers or antibiotics and mind-altering psychotropic drugs. I stick by my original statement: psychotropic drugs are bad news! I'd never take them or let my future posterity get grogged up on them. Parents that substitute Ritalin for child-rearing are doing their children a disservice. The New England Journal of Medicine acknowledged that such drugs are actually causing neurological problems and stunting neurological development in children. There is seldom any biological basis or sound test utilized in diagnosis of people purportedly in need of such drugs.

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Puritanhead]

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

I am currently a social worker in a public school system. It is so sad to me the number of parents who substitute Ritalin for sugar restriction and discipline!


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



Biology and neuro/psychology are two different things. There is very little we know of the mind. What we do know, is that many a phisophrenic has stopped hearing voices, paranoia is reduced to the minimum and symptomotology greatly improved when using certain meds or combinatory therapies. This is a fact; there has been more success in this avenue than those whom have left the rationale for a multivitamin. 

There are as many parents whom swear by the use of Ritalin as there are whom reject the treatment. Most of those whom have bailed on the therapy were those whom could not handle the interim period of initial treatment........

I agree with you that I would be very afraids of using the drug on my children. It is a large move. I do believe however that, it is as large an endeavor not treating these manic cases sometimes. They have literally destroyed families, disrupted classrooms beyond recongnition etc.

I do not believe that in these cases, beating your child into submission works..........


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> 
> I am currently a social worker in a public school system. It is so sad to me the number of parents who substitute Ritalin for sugar restriction and discipline!



Here's my gripe with what you present; how have you come to this conclussion? Do you believe that the medical community is that irresponsible that before eliminating the obvious they just pluck a pill at you? C'mon! The diet and nutrition rationale is applied. If that works, we go with that.....


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> I don't know what part of my post would lead you to believe that. Could you specifiy?



So, you are just against medicating if the disease is 'mental'?


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

I have come to this conclusion by spending hours in the homes of my clients, working with parents, and attending doctors' visits with them. To answer your question: Yes, I have been in the room when a doctor immediately prescribes Ritalin before any other considerations are made. Is that empirical? Yes! But no more so than the observations you present. I didn't say it was every single person on Ritalin, I said I was saddened by the number of parents (my clients whom I deal with on a daily basis) who use it as a substitute.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> I have come to this conclusion by spending hours in the homes of my clients, working with parents, and attending doctors' visits with them. To answer your question: Yes, I have been in the room when a doctor immediately prescribes Ritalin before any other considerations are made. Is that empirical? Yes! But no more so than the observations you present. I didn't say it was every single person on Ritalin, I said I was saddened by the number of parents (my clients whom I deal with on a daily basis) who use it as a substitute.



Miss,
You use the term "substitute". How have you come to this conclussion? Seriously?How can you say that the treatment is in fact secondary and not primary? Are you saying that the prescribing doctor never dealt with blood chem etc? I find this hard to believe as I never have worked w/ any doctor who cherished his license work in this haphazard manner........

[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Puritanhead (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> There is very little we know of the mind. What we do know, is that many a phisophrenic has stopped hearing voices, paranoia is reduced to the minimum and symptomotology greatly improved when using certain meds or combinatory therapies.



I can accept that. I still contend that probably 80-90% of people using psychotropic drugs shouldn't be... moreover, the qwack pschyo-profession dispenses such drugs out like pez candy. It just isn't right. Abuse as you say is wrong, but "abuse" is institutionalized and accepted as mainstream... that's my major point!


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

> To make myself clear, I'm NOT saying that there isn't a place for medicine or that there is no such thing as chemical or mental imbalance.





> I just think that too often people stop at taking medication (because it dulls the symptoms) without continuing to fix the spiritual issues that are also affecting them.



I am saying that there is danger in assuming that in all cases medication without Biblical counseling will fix all of the problems. The areas I mentioned (anger, resentment, etc. are sinful & if they are the CAUSE of the depression, no medication will fix the problem). As I said in earlier posts, I am not completely anti-medication. I did not scoff at the existence of chemical or mental imbalances nor did I say they should never be treated with medications. The problem is that our minds (hearts, souls) are connected to our physical bodies in a way we don't understand. When we are angry (in our minds), our faces flush (body), our hearts beat faster (body), and we are less likely to act rationally (mind/body). If there is a problem with your physical body, it is very possible for it to affect your mind. Of course a medication would be in order & I don't know how else I can put it: I don't think that it is wrong.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



Ryan,
This is solely your opinion. I am in the industry. Doctors are regulated. They prescribe based upon outcomes of studies, not based upon opinion or trial and error.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> 
> > To make myself clear, I'm NOT saying that there isn't a place for medicine or that there is no such thing as chemical or mental imbalance.
> ...



I agree with your general premise.


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> ...



My parents (well, not MY parents, but my clients' parents  )find it easier to give their child a drug that subdues them than setting boundaries and rules for the energetic child to follow. Are you asking if the doctor didn't deal with the blood chemistry of the specific child that I was with? No, she didn't. Sadly, not ALL medical professionals cherish their licensure. I know that you don't agree with me, and that's fine - but I'm getting the feeling that you think I'm lying to you.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



I assure you, I do not believe you are lying. I just find it hard to believe that a doctor would prescribe something prior to bloodwork. Brain tumors can cause these symptoms. Blood work could show imbalances from the tumor, requiring a different approach.


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## Puritanhead (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Ryan,
> This is solely your opinion. I am in the industry. Doctors are regulated. They prescribe based upon outcomes of studies, not based upon opinion or trial and error.



I'm just articulating what I believe to be good ole fashioned common sense-- opinion or not. I think psychotropic drugs are dispensed way too much and are abused. I know you can show me a study that says one thing and there will be one that says something else. *That you admit, finite man knows little about the mind is indicative of why we should take it all the more seriously and not toy with it so carelessly.*

Psychologists, pscychiatrists, and pharmaceutical companies have a rational self-interest in promoting the use of such drugs; their self-interest many times trumps the best interest and well-being of the patient. In my humble opinion, the "industry" promotes and dispenses such mind-altering drugs flagrantly and carelessly. I'm not saying such drugs should never be utilized.

My parents are professionals in health care sector and tend to agree that psychotropic drugs are utilized way too much... my mother the nurse a little less so.


[Edited on 3-4-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

What happened to our thread??????????


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## Puritanhead (Mar 4, 2005)

:bigsmile:


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 4, 2005)

TRUCE!!!


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## Puritanhead (Mar 4, 2005)




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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)




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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

Ryan,
Carry the same line of thought we are having here and bring it over to this thread:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9657&page=1#pid140997

Tell me if this is not double standards?


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

Scott,

Seriously, with all due respect, if you're reading things off of quack watch you are being misinformed. Stephen Barret is a down right liar. A few years ago Barret, Dr. James Winer (my doctor), and Charlotte Gerson were on a local radio show. They were discussing alternative cancer treatments and a book that had just come out by Stephen Barret supposedly exposing the fraud of natural treatments and clinics. Stephen Barret proceeded to tell how these clinics were practicing quackery as described in his book. Ms. Gerson finally said that she never recalled Mr. Barret ever visiting their facility or even calling to see what they do. Barret admitted that he never did. Then after being pressured further on the topic of the book, he admitted that he didn't even write it. He was paid to have his name put on the cover!

This is just one example of his deception. Research him and you'll find that he is the fraud and the quack. His organization has lost most all of their recent court cases against so called alternative/natural "quacks."

I have nothing to gain by convincing you that alternative medicine works. My mother is a nurse and has obviously been through the medical schooling. After about a year of trying to get her to try an alternative for the problems that she had, she decided to give it a try. She's been off of her meds for 3-4 years (can't remember exactly). She's a medical nurse and if someone asks her advice on a condition she's either sends them to me or (if really serious) to Dr. Winer (alternative practitioner).

People are usually down on what they're not up on. I'd love for you to "tag along" with me for a few months to actually see people get well and off of meds. You're telling me that these things don't work, yet I witness them working.

I just started working at a holistic health center in Johnstown, PA. The owner is a 71 year old man who was diagnosed with cancer in '97. His wife is a naturopathic doctor. The medical community gave him no hope so he turned to the alternative treatments. Today he is cancer free and had no medical intervention. He's starting the health center because he wants to help educate people on alternatives so they can be helped like he was. 

The medical community definately has it's place and so do medications. These should be a last resort and only used until the underlying problem is found and solved. Unfortunately, this rarely happens unless someone goes to an alternative practitioner.

I highly recommend the book "Confessions of a Medical Heretic" by Dr. Robert Mendelson, MD. He was a pediatrition that realized he was harming children by doing what he had been taught in school. He learned from his mistakes and became a great medical doctor.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 4, 2005)

We obviouselly can see how medications are necessary in various situations but God also gave us earth to watch over which many republican christians ignore because abortionists or greenys do that so we wont type of attitude. Sorry ranting...

What I want to get accross is we have a beautiful planet that if used properly can help us. there are things that God has provided for us despite the presence of SIN that can cure us. 

If the world didnt move at such a rapid pace there probably wouldnt be so much add-adhd and depresson. Just my thought.

Blade


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> Scott,
> 
> Seriously, with all due respect, if you're reading things off of quack watch you are being misinformed. Stephen Barret is a down right liar. A few years ago Barret, Dr. James Winer (my doctor), and Charlotte Gerson were on a local radio show. They were discussing alternative cancer treatments and a book that had just come out by Stephen Barret supposedly exposing the fraud of natural treatments and clinics. Stephen Barret proceeded to tell how these clinics were practicing quackery as described in his book. Ms. Gerson finally said that she never recalled Mr. Barret ever visiting their facility or even calling to see what they do. Barret admitted that he never did. Then after being pressured further on the topic of the book, he admitted that he didn't even write it. He was paid to have his name put on the cover!
> ...



Dan,
I am not saying that they don't work, they possibly do in certain cases. However, there is no valid, reputable studies supporting it, i.e. chelation therapy.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 4, 2005)

What about the pharmecutical company promoting drugs thorugh doctors? also what about drugs having so many side effects?? 

Im not sayin there all bad. Just asking if you know. 

Blade


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

Scott,

I believe that the reason that there are no studies done is because this would drastically cut into the profit of drug sales. I'm not trying to preach some conspiracy theory here, I just think that's reality. Follow the money trail.

Many of the studies that are done are done by pharmaceutical companies or clinic funded by them. Do we really believe that they are going to look into natural therapies that would take away from their sales?

I do think that there is evidence and real studies that have been done. People have used alot of these therapies, herbs, etc. for thousands of years with success. Just not in this country (since the indians anyway).

Also, I sort of agree when you speak of genetics or the genetic strand. I believe that people can lean genetically toward a certain disease. However, by using natural means they can put the "odds" (I know, bad theology) in their favor. In other words, by living a bad lifestyle, eating bad food, etc., one person might be more prone to cancer while another heart disease, etc. Nevertheless, I would choose natural therapies to help correct and strengthen rather than chemicals that suppress.

I will also admit that there are natural practitioners that I would call "quacks." But when looking at the theories of the allopathic pratitioners compared to the natural, I believe the natural to be correct.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 4, 2005)




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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> What about the pharmecutical company promoting drugs thorugh doctors? also what about drugs having so many side effects??
> 
> Im not sayin there all bad. Just asking if you know.
> ...



Doctors use drug based upon study outcomes. Side effects are reported for legal purposes solely. For instance, the heart medicine I take blocks beta cells; this presents itself as the side effect, fatigue. if I was to do something like drive and get into an accident, if the drug companies did not report that fatigue was a side effect, I could sue them. Most side effects do not even present themselves to the normal person. I always tell my patients to NOT read the side effect brochure that comes w/ the medicines........

mega dosing of OTC pottasium will cause heart rythym disturbances. No one ever tells you that.


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

> Doctors use drug based upon study outcomes.



And there are no studies done to find out what happens when you take a combination of drugs. From what I understand, they are all studied individually. Who knows what's going on when someone on a drug cocktail.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> 
> 
> > Doctors use drug based upon study outcomes.
> ...



This is true. But, for all thats worth, neither does the naturalist community (do such a study).


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

> This is true. But, for all thats worth, neither does the naturalist community (do such a study).



You're right but when using natural things most of the time (not always) you're on safe ground. For example, if you "overdose" on magnesium orally, the body will get rid of it (diarrhea). 

There are natural things, I will admit, that can be dangerous but compare the yearly deaths from drugs to supplements. They're still much safer. Especially when recommended by a holistic practitioner who's been trained properly. Medical professionals are not trained in this.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> 
> 
> > This is true. But, for all thats worth, neither does the naturalist community (do such a study).
> ...



Medical practitioners are not trained in chemistry? Physiology? Biology? I'm at a loss. Not much more left to say here................


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

> Medical practitioners are not trained in chemistry? Physiology? Biology? I'm at a loss. Not much more left to say here................



That's not what I meant Scott. They are not trained to apply that knowledge towards using natural methods of healing. In fact, I'm amazed that they use the same anatomy books as chiropractors yet most md's deny the basis for chiropractic.

Anyway, maybe we should meet up again on the Ramones thread where we can better agree.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 4, 2005)

Hate to spoil it for some ppl...but I used to be a nanny for a pharmeceutical sales representative (a Lutheran couple to boot...wish I had asked more questions back then). The doctors are informed by the reps (too busy to do alot of research themselves), the reps are informed by receiving books from the pharmaceutical companies (the size of textbooks) telling them about the disease or what not, how the drugs are "supposed" to work, and what to say to the Drs.

[Edited on 3-5-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## Scot (Mar 4, 2005)

They also usually hire "good looking" reps and send the females to the male doctors and the males to the female doctors.

I know all about it. My mother works for Diamond Drugs (although she won't use any herself).


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 6, 2005)

A little video on herbals and how they interact w/ pharmeceuticals:

http://video.msn.com/video/p.htm?t=1&p=Source_Today Show&i=318d6a50-6bad-4975-bd7a-6e4867df3058&rf=

*Click on "Herbal Interactions".

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scot (Mar 6, 2005)

Some information from Dr. Robert Morse (I don't always agree with everything he says but I like these quotes - note his 3rd point)

"First Most medical doctors can't cure anything! High blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, MS, glaucoma, etc.; and yet most of these are easy to overcome with diet and herbs. 

Second They would lead you to believe that herbs are dangerous. What a joke! Chemical pharmaceutical medicines are the most dangerous substances you can consume, killing hundreds of thousands of people each year. And hurting millions more... Did you know that deaths associated with pharmaceuticals are the third leading cause of death in the U.S. - right behind heart disease and cancer! Herbs rarely hurt anyone. 

*Third Herbs reduce the effects of pharmaceuticals . That's their job. Herbs cure - chemicals ( drugs ) suppress and kill. Which would you rather have?*

Fourth There's no control or studies on herbs and their use. This is a total lie designed to instill more fear into the average person. Herbs have over a five thousand year recorded history of use. They have been studied extensively by China, Japan, India, & Germany, and are used on a regular basis by most countries worldwide. 

Our own Native Americans have used herbs for hundreds of years and have an extensive knowledge of American botanicals. 

Also, our very own drug companies have done extensive research on herbs, but they can't patent them, so there is no profit to be made by using them. You don't go to a carpenter for plumbing problems. Why go to a medical doctor for information on herbs? Herbalists and most Naturopaths go to school for this, so why not go to the experts themselves. 

Fifth The medical profession has deceived the people, legislators, and themselves into thinking they are the saviors of the world, when actually they are the biggest killers . 

Sixth Science knows best. I love this one. It wasn't too many years ago that science said the world was flat. Science is always ignorant of creation. Man just can't figure out what nature already knows. 

Seventh Health and healing is so simple, man is the only species that suffers because of this separation from nature. 

Eighth Herbs have active principles so they should be listed as medicines and controlled by the egomaniac medical doctors. Guess what! All raw foods have active principles in them! If you extract some of the more powerful active principles, like alkaloids and make them in higher potencies, over time they can destroy the liver or kidneys. However, God buffers these in Botanicals ( foods ). Pharmaceutical companies are the ones who extract and create foreign substances which your body can't handle. 

Ninth At least 2 Â½ million people enter the hospital each year from adverse reactions to chemical medications -Washington Post 

Tenth At least 180,000 people die each year from chemical medications. ( Some have estimated this to be over 500,000. ) -Washington Post 

Eleventh 100,000 people die each year from estrogenic 

diseases ( caused by allopathic physician s). 

Twelfth 100,000 people die each year from hospital errors ( This means you have a 1-in-200 chance of dying in a hospital from hospital errors ). -Discovery News 

Thirteenth 900,000 injuries from medical doctors occur yearly. 

"”Discovery News 
Fourteenth 120,000 die from medical mistakes. 

Fifthteenth 15,000+ people die each year from taking over-the-counter drugs. 

An example of the difference between herbs themselves and their active principles is Ephedra. The active principle is Ephedrine which as we've seen can contribute to cardiac arrest when improperly used, as in diet pills. Pharmaceutical Companies take out the active constituent from the herb and intensify the strength of it while adding it to other chemicals. This makes it too strong for its intended use. This is not how God intended us to use herbs!" 


Dr. Robert Morse

EDUCATION 
1999 N.M.D. From Southern School of Naturopathic Medicine 
1978 N.D. From Brantridge, Sussex, England 
1979 D.Sc. From Brantridge, Sussex, England (Biochemistry) 
1974-Present I.D. From American School of Iridology, Brantridge, 
& personal training with Dr. Bernard Jensen, 
Father of Iridology in United States 
1972-Present M.H. School of Herbal Medicine, Brantridge, Sussex, England 
Dominion Herbal College 
1995 Nutrition & Fitness from Professional Career Development Institute 
1998 Honorary Medical Degree from Portugal 
1998 Member of Association of Specialists in Natural Medicine, Portugal 
1997 Board Certified by the American Naturopathic Medical Certification and Accreditation Board


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 7, 2005)

> Dr. Jay Adams is one of my favorite authors. His Nouthetic Counseling method exposes the counselees' sins as the root of their problems.



There is a major problem with the counselling techniques that I have encountered with the Nouthetic guys. They assume to much and are on Witch hunts for sin when it might not be there. They sometimes remind me of Jobs friends. 

Yes we can be chemically imbalanced. That is why they give Chem 21 blood tests. We can not check the balance of Chemicals in the Brain, so to speak, but we do know about the chemistry that the brain works on and that it can be out of wack. 

I don't like these drugs but they are necessary sometimes when we can't see all things. You ought to see someone with schizo problems off there drugs. Then you ought to see them on the drugs. There in totally different worlds. 

I agree with Scott. It is a sin problem but it is inherited sometimes instead of committed. Just like Cancer can be. Sometimes it is just the result of The Fall.


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## andreas (Mar 8, 2005)

***First Most medical doctors can't cure anything! High blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, MS, glaucoma, etc.; and yet most of these are easy to overcome with diet and herbs***

Do not think so.The effects of herbal things, and diet, on blood pressure ,glaucoma,cancer etc,is like 
Where are the  to back his claim?
andreas


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## Scot (Mar 8, 2005)

> Where are the  to back his claim?



Wow. Where would you like to start? Get the book A Cancer Therapy by Dr. Max Gerson. He was curing people of cancer through diet back in the 50's.

If all you've seen are the medical treatments for these things then I can understand your doubts. Understand though, to me it's funny because I work with these things everyday and see results. I can personally introduce you to alot of people who have used natural things to cure what drugs weren't helping. Including cancer.


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## Scot (Mar 8, 2005)

http://www.scnm.edu/research/index.php


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 2, 2005)

New FDA Warning About Antidespressant-Suicide Link


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## Authorised (Jul 2, 2005)

I have a hard time believing that cancer is cured by diet. If there really were such a correlation, it would have been shouted from the rooftops long ago. 

Did this doctor attend the Benny Hinn medical school? Where is the empirical proof for this?

Also, homeopathy has been totally shattered into oblivion by far more exacting scientific standards. I put it in the same category as black helicopters and mark of the beast barcodes.


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## just_grace (Jul 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> ...



Amen


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 2, 2005)

I have a hard time believing that cancer is cured by diet. If there really were such a correlation, it would have been shouted from the rooftops long ago. 

*Think you answer that question yourself. If pharmeceutical(sp?) companies are making money off of chemicals instead of natural medicine and dietary cures then why would they shout it from the roof top? Its like asking big oil to use alternative fuel it aint going to happen because people like medical who are supposed to help their fellow man wont because their god is mammon. *

Did this doctor attend the Benny Hinn medical school? Where is the empirical proof for this?

*I understand your skepticism I admit I dont know all the in's and out's but for me and my family natural is better than chemical. Chemical hasnt been around as long as natural. We are made by God to use natural ways instead of chemical feces medicine. Its unfortunate that wacko mystics and pagans know more about natural medicine than christians. If Christians were on top of this you wouldnt be so skeptical. Its just like supporting the environment their are many lefty liberals pagans who are on top of this area much more than Christians so its turns the average joe Christian off because 'Oh its what the pagans do' but we are commanded to have dominion over the earth and animals not in bearing fruit to destruction but to life.*

Also, homeopathy has been totally shattered into oblivion by far more exacting scientific standards. I put it in the same category as black helicopters and mark of the beast barcodes. 

*If your proof is the cdc(a cdc that trained Iraqi scientists on how to cultivate west nile, bubonic plague and botulism none the less) or fda granted they can get some things right. I would need to see rpoof from a non partisaned doctor to prove natural medicine wrong. I hate to break your heart and please dont burn me at the stake but black helicopters and beast barcondes are real. Ive seen ablack helicopter its standard military craft such as black hawks that are sued for training and supply runs to underground bases around the country its not like the gov doenst know where were headed towards. Also the new national ID card they proposed and I believe passed uses' rfid chips which are used more frequently then people realize. As you may noticed are rights are taken away from us and we dont want good citizens getting in the way of our north american union.*

My point do what you think is right but dont be so skpetical that you lose out on what could be a better way to treat health problems. Scot(dan) is one who can much help you. 

Blade


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## Texas Aggie (Jul 2, 2005)

Dan,

I think we have to be careful here. You're claims inspire treachery for the common public. To assert that traditional western medicine techniques are dangerous is absolutely foolish.

We can not over-generalize to such a degree. The truth is any time there is a human element in anything there can be (and will be) mistakes....with herbals (procurement & processing), with traditional scripts, with operations etc.

The problem is that people expect perfection in the medical circles although in their own lives and jobs they are certainly not perfect. Just think about your job, your spouse or your friends and neighbors. There is no perfection in any job.

Dan let me tell you something, I can introduce you to a lot of people who have turned to hematologist/oncologist because the herbs were not working (and many times they come too late).

You are willfully ignorant on the subject. Quoting a bunch of "œyay-hoos," who obviously by their curriculum vitae, are strictly holistic presents only the most biased and slanted of views.

Let´s talk about herbals:
1. Echinacea 
Uses: common colds, wounds, burns, urinary tract infections, coughs and bronchitis.
Problems: may cause hepatotoxicity (liver damage). It inhibits microsomal enzymes in the liver affecting metabolism of drugs dependent on liver metabolism.

2. Feverfew
Uses: migraine prophylactic and antipyretic (brings fever down).
Problems: can inhibit platelet activity; rebound headache with abrupt cessation; 5-15% of users develop gastric ulcers.

3. Garlic
Uses: Lipid lowering; vasodilatory, anti-hypertensive, anti-platelet actions.
Problems: may potentiate other anticoagulants. Spinal cord hematomas have been reported.

4.Ginger
Uses: for anti-emetic, anti-vertigo and antispasmodic effects.
Problems: guess what? It is an anticoagulant..... that means, bleeding

5.Ginkgo: 
Uses: Circulatory stimulant, antioxidant, memory loss, dementia and sexual dysfunction
Problem: may enhance bleeding of patients already on blood thinners. Cases of subarachnoid hemorrhage and subdural hematomas (a fancy way of saying bleeding in the head)

6. Ginseng
Uses: enhance energy level; antioxidant and reported aphrodisiac affects
Problems: "œGinseng Abuse Syndrome" (more than 15 mg per day) characterized by sleepiness, hypertonia and edema. Can lead to low blood sugars, low blood pressures and rapid heart rates.

I can quote you study after study of all the many ways medicine has indeed reduced man's morbidity and mortality from disease. Why do you think that man's lifespan has increased so much in the last 100 years? Was it the American indians teaching us their herbals? Maybe somewhat but please, science and traditional medicine has a lot to do with it. Jesus was the Great Physician and he still inspires the traditional medical community for which I am part of (I´m Matt´s wife, Lynnell).

Sorry I had to respond to this post because I thought it was getting out of hand. As far as the original question, some of the SSRIs--paxil, zoloft have been implicated in increased suicidal behavior when they are suddenly stopped as well. I would definitely be in close consult with someone before stopping such a drug based on any of the above postings.

Dan, I am not trying to slam you. I definitely feel that herbals, eating well and exercise all have a place in good health but so does traditional medicine. Half of my colleagues I did residency with were in fact DOs (doctors of osteopathic medicine.) and they practice traditional medicine becoming anesthesiologists, internists, psychiatrists, etc.

If you still don´t like the idea of western medicine and think it has no place, I suggest the next time you go for surgery ask the anesthesiologist to give you something herbal for your anesthetic..... good luck with that, there isn´t anything. 
Everything has its place. Get it?

One of those "œegomaniac" M.D.s
Lynnell Daniel


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 2, 2005)

you obviouslely dont just take herbals for the point of taking them in opposition to traditional medicine. Granted not all traditional medicine is bad only a near sighted dependence on them is same with herbal. You have to go over your symptoms like a smart adult and go over the herbal medicine to see if its appropriate. its called common sense. 

Blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 2, 2005)

For example my beloved cat in my avater King Morgan had kidney problems before he died most likely polycstic kidney disease. Now we went to our traditional vet who insisted on putting him down and couldnt open his mouth to find out he had a infection which caused him to not eat well. They wanted to do test after test prescribe him with fecal after fecal. We put him on natural pet medicine and it helped ten fold. For me it seems that vets or docs(not all) are to anxoius to get rid of us or over prescribe us so that they make their money at our espense. All our cats problems we discovered the only benefit of seeing the vet was for blood work. I know my cat was on his way out but my cat is family and it dont matter its the dog or my mom I will never give up on finding a way to help prolong their life through natural means so God helps me. Id rather do natural all the way until I know more I have to rely on traditional(ironic). Im on welbutrin if I can find a way to ger off of it I will. 

Blade


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## Scot (Jul 3, 2005)

> Dan,
> 
> I think we have to be careful here. You're claims inspire treachery for the common public. To assert that traditional western medicine techniques are dangerous is absolutely foolish.
> 
> ...



Yes, I do get it and the place for modern medicine is in surgery and emergency situations. I just spoke to a group of medical students, nurses and hospital workers two weeks ago. This is the analogy that I gave them (I think I have posted this before)

Let's say that you have a garbage can sitting out on your front porch. After awhile, it begins to fill up with garbage. Pretty soon flies start to come. Then rats. One approach that you can take is to spray the flies with poison and shoot the rats with a shotgun. You're going to kill some flies and rats but you are also going to contaminate and damage the can in the process. Also, more flies and more rats are eventually going to come. You're problem hasn't been solved and you've damaged the garbage can.

What's the best solution? CLEAN OUT THE CAN! When the can is clean, it doesn't attract the flies and rats. The flies and the rats are the symptom of the problem. The flies don't create the garbage, it's the other way around.

The poison and shotgun approach is what the medical community takes. They're suppressing symptoms but not getting to the underlying cause.

This goes back to the fued between Pastuer and Bechamp. Even Pastuer before he died, admitted that it is the terrain of the body that is important.

Please don't try to tell me that I'm ignorant on the subject.

Also, I'm not advising that anyone stop taking their meds. I am advising that you seek out someone who can find the underlying cause and fix the problem. If it's your medical doctor, I admire him/her. I haven't seen many who do that.

As for the "yay-hoos", I believe you are willfully ignorant about them. Dr. Max Gerson (who was an MD) was a genius and cured many of cancer. Here's a quote from Dr. Gerson's most famous patient, Nobel Prize winner Albert Schweitzer, MD: "I see in Dr. Gerson one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine."

I've said my peace. If I have an emergency, I will not hesitate to use our advancements in emergency medicine. If I end up with a disease, I will seek out healing not symptom suppression.

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by Scot]


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## andreas (Jul 3, 2005)

***What's the best solution? CLEAN OUT THE CAN! When the can is clean, it doesn't attract the flies and rats. The flies and the rats are the symptom of the problem. The flies don't create the garbage, it's the other way around.***

Sometimes it is not possible to treat the cause of the disease,although that is always the goal of physicians.If you can not treat the cause, then you try to control the symptoms in order to make the patients life more tolerable.You can not always clean out the can.

andreas.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 3, 2005)

With God all things are possible. Just because we fail as humans to not always clean out the can does not mean we should stop. Like missionaires who take the gospel to savages and are killed for it. Should we stop trying to clean out the can? Or should we continue to press forward with the gospel? I pick the latter. We may not able to clean out most cans in this generation but we should not give up because are children will have to pick up the pieces if we dont help them out now.

Blade


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