# Former Christians, former Calvinists



## Andrew1142 (May 14, 2013)

I rarely spend much time at explicitly anti-Christian websites (I know that I ought to for the purposes of evangelising, but I find it very depressing), but this forum thread, "Question for Former Reformed Calvinists," somehow came up in a websearch for the "Happy Bearded Calvinist" meme (which I just discovered today).

It's a strange irony (probably more than a coincidence?) that I would come across this as I'm listening through John MacArthur's series on 2 Peter, one of the main topics of which is regarding assurance of salvation (I'm currently on message 13).

Some people on this thread, even though "former Calvinists," misrepresent Calvinism. That's not really surprising, but I was surprised to find that one or two seem to have a fairly decent understanding of it, maybe better than mine. HymenaeusAlexander, in particular, seems to know quite a bit about history and doctrine.

Of course, 1 John 2:19 says that they went out from us so that it would become plain that they are not of us.

But this is what's concerning to me and why I bring it up. In that sermon series, John MacArthur talks about tests from 1 John, to test your own faith so that you can have assurance of salvation. Dr. MacArthur's exegesis of 1 John is pretty convincing. (I've also read his book that was based on the sermon series, "Saved Without a Doubt.") 

But then you have people like HymenaeusAlexander. At one time a professed Christian who has gone out from us. It seems to me that when he was a professed Christian, he would have read 1 John and felt the same confidence that a true Christian would. Yet he's no longer a professed Christian. I realize that I am making some assumptions about HymenaeusAlexander that I can't really be absolutely certain about, but even before I came across this thread, something that I've always thought when hearing and reading Dr. MacArthur is knowing that there have to have been people that strongly felt secure in their salvation as a result of 1 John, only to later renounce their faith altogether.

I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on that. How can we reconcile this, and how can we be certain that we're not deceiving ourselves? How can a Christian differentiate himself or herself from people that falsely believe that, even based on 1 John and 2 Peter, that their relationship with God is authentic?

I actually know part of the answer, but I feel like it's very incomplete, or at least that my understanding of it is incomplete. That is that our relationship with God is improved by diligently studying the scriptures and doing His will. One thing that I've come to realize from reading the NT recently is that doing the will of God will result in a better relationship with Him, and will increase our sense of peace (though I'm certainly not a health-and-wealth person; I realize that it may not result in easier superficial circumstances). But, this again brings us to people like HymenaeusAlexander, or at least different kinds of former Christians that thought they were diligently studying the scriptures, and thought they were doing His will. Knowing this, then, how can a Christian be confident in his or her standing with God?

I hope this makes sense. This is kind of the way my brain works.


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## irresistible_grace (May 14, 2013)

How can we be certain that we're not deceiving ourselves? 
How can a Christian differentiate himself or herself from people that falsely believe that ... their relationship with God is authentic?



I am looking forward to reading responses to these two questions you pose.
I too have often asked these same questions.

Also, this brings to mind many "Reformed" Christians that were formerly "Pentecostal" and exercised the "gift of tongues" sincerely believing that their gift was authentic only to later believe that such gifts ceased long ago. If their "gift" was not authentic then, how are they to be assured that their "faith" is authentic now?
How are they to know they are not deceiving themselves yet again?


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## Fogetaboutit (May 14, 2013)

We have to remember that we should rest on the promises of the Lord and not on our experiences or emotions. The reason you should "test" your faith is to see if you became harden to certain sins, if you have backslid without noticing or justified your sins one way or another, not to see if you "feel" saved. If you find yourself in a backslid position what do you do, do you try to mortify you sins on your own? Or do you plead with the Lord to bring you out of it? Yes your "works" can be an evidence of your faith but ultimately faith is defined by where you put you trust to be able to stand, in yourself or by the grace of God.


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## MichaelNZ (May 14, 2013)

There's no such thing as a former Christian.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19 ESV)


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## Elizabeth (May 14, 2013)

Well, just off the cuff, do we not believe that the Saints persevere to the end? We are held in God's good hand, and nothing can wrest us from Him.

In other words,: if you are God's, you are God's. Full stop. 

Your only certainly is in Christ and Him crucified for your sins. Rest there. 

Don't think you have to give the devil (or Mr. H A) any due, when he comes to you whispering: "How do you know you're not deceiving yourself".

OR answer him thus, "God holds me in His hands, and the gates of hell will not prevail against His sovereign will. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him". 

Leave it there. Leave your pride in debate. This is a point God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost must make to Mr H A.


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## Tripel (May 14, 2013)

Andrew1142 said:


> Knowing this, then, how can a Christian be confident in his or her standing with God?



Difficult question. There are probably a lot of good questions you could ask yourself. For starters, to what do you look for your salvation -- your religion? your knowledge/theology/doctrine? If you look to Christ alone, your salvation is true.
Also, do you truly seek God? The unbeliever seeks many things (and some of them are good things), but only the regenerated man truly seeks God.

We can talk all day about how there's no such thing as a former Christian, and yes, doctrinally that is true. But we have to acknowledge that there are many, many people out there who for some period of time identified themselves as Christians, and who believe they really were Christians for a time. But if you could dig into their hearts and minds and locate the truth, you'd find that their previous "Christianity" was not about Christ. Most likely it was about religion or some other attempt to improve the man.


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## chuckd (May 14, 2013)

"In our ordinary walking with God, and in an ordinary course of his dealing with us, the vigour and comfort of our spiritual lives depend much on our mortification, not only as a “causa sine qua non,” but as a thing that hath an effectual influence thereinto." -John Owen, Mortification of Sin


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## Andrew1142 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks, a lot of these things turned out to be helpful. Especially the reminder that, if I'm paraphrasing Daniel, Etienne, and Elizabeth correctly, our doctrine is not what saves us, but Christ is what saves us.

That also reminds me of something that I've heard, I don't remember where it was that I heard this (maybe John Piper?), but it's been said that the devil is a Calvinist, in the sense that he understands what the true doctrine is. Therefore merely knowing true doctrine is not, and never really was claimed to be, the source of our salvation, but Christ is.

I'm also thinking that I need to spend some time with John Owen sometime. I understand that he's a very difficult read, but well worth it. But more importantly, I'm realizing that what the Christian needs to do is not merely study scripture, but apply it (James 1:22), and earnestly seek after a relationship with God rather than just knowledge of God (James 4:8). Although I'm certain that HymenaeusAlexander would appear to disagree with me (and I'm aware that he may very well find this thread through Google or something and read what I'm writing), that must have been absent from his time as a professed Christian.

If I understand Dr. MacArthur correctly, certainty of one's relationship with God isn't just something that appears one day, but something that comes after seeking after God and maturing in faith.

(I also want to clarify that I do definitely believe in the preservation of the saints. I don't think that HymenaeusAlexander could ever have had a proper relationship with God. My question is not, then, how does a Christian know that they haven't fallen from grace, but rather, how does a Christian know that they ever really were in a state of grace.)

Jess, I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in thinking about this.  I think it's something that I'll continue to think about for some time.


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## Hamalas (May 14, 2013)

I would encourage you to read as much of the Puritans as you can get your hands on. Many people are familiar with their doctrinal precision, but most are unfamiliar with the pastoral insight and practical application which marked their ministries and writings. They will help you to apply what you learn and ask piercing questions along the way.


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## seajayrice (May 14, 2013)

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.


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