# Witnessing to Christian Universalism



## Mike Gruber

I've searched the forum in an attempt to find an adequate "one size fits all" answer to this. I have largely been unable.

How do you witness to Christian Universalists? A relative of mine, for example, prescribes to the Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America, a group of churches who in addition to the many other heretical constructs, has adopted a position of Christian Universalism. I attended Christmas worship this morning with this relative and was shocked to hear hints of it (Christian Universalism) from their female [gulp] senior pastor, who officiated the service and delivered the message. This teaching was further displayed while in the kitchen this afternoon preparing Christmas dinner. I was shocked [SHOCKED] to hear this relative exclaim that strict adherence to Islam allows people to go to heaven. This is after 40 YEARS in this denomination.

Looking for some help.


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## Edward

It will be difficult to find common ground with someone who has rejected scripture and Christ.


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## Mike Gruber

Edward said:


> It will be difficult to find common ground with someone who has rejected scripture and Christ.



Yes. I don't think that's very honoring of God, however. The only reason I am now reconciled to God is because someone first came to me, shared the Gospel and lovingly exposed me to my brokenness.


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## Edward

It is easier to communicate who are broken in sin than those who are comfortable in heresy. 

How would you reach out to a Mormon, or JW, or a Moslem that considers Christ a prophet?


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## Mike Gruber

Edward said:


> It is easier to communicate who are broken in sin than those who are comfortable in heresy.
> 
> How would you reach out to a Mormon, or JW, or a Moslem that considers Christ a prophet?



Heresy is just one of many sins. To say that the heretic is too far for the long arm of God's grace to touch is to say that so too is the liar, the bigot or the addict. And I know that's not true based on my personal testimony.


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## Gforce9

Mike,
There seem to be a few things things in your question:
1- A Universalist, whatever qualifier he may wish to assign himself, is not a Christian. A universalist has jettisoned too many non-negotiables of Christianity to be called one. I think ones approach to such as these should reflect that fact.
2- As Calvinists, we understand our packaging properly or persuasiveness of the Gospel is not what "reaches" a person; "reaching" folks is a job has been reserved by God for himself through the ministry of the Word. This should free the minister of the Gospel to preach the truth faithfully and let God be God.


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## Mike Gruber

Gforce9 said:


> Mike,
> 2- As Calvinists, we understand our packaging properly or persuasiveness of the Gospel is not what "reaches" a person; "reaching" folks is a job has been reserved by God for himself through the ministry of the Word. This should free the minister of the Gospel to preach the truth faithfully and let God be God.



Yes. Correct. I understand these truths. That still doesn't mean that through grace we can't prepare to deliver a message through apologetic counterargument. If I simply answer to a universalist that "Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, and you are wrong, so goodbye", I don't think it would be justifiable after the dialogue to say "okay, God. I did it. Ball's in your court."


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## Gforce9

Mike,
I wasn't advocating reciting John 3:16 and walking away, rather, I was trying to demonstrate the truth that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and to say that you may want to consider whether to treat this individual as a brother or as one who has not been born again. 
What might be beneficial, is to find out where he gets the idea of universalism. If he claims to be a Protestant Christian, you can take him to both church history and to the Scriptures to help him understand his feet are firmly planted in mid air. As an aside, John 3:16 by itself, speaks little of our condition in Adam, God's righteous wrath, Christ's active and passive obedience, substitutionary atonement, or imputation. By itself, it gives little information to know what to believe "in Him", what one might perish from and how one could "stand" justified before a holy and perfect God. A walk through Romans is a good prescription for what ails this person


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## Mike Gruber

Gforce9 said:


> Mike,
> I wasn't advocating reciting John 3:16 and walking away, rather, I was trying to demonstrate the truth that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and to say that you may want to consider whether to treat this individual as a brother or as one who has not been born again.
> What might be beneficial, is to find out where he gets the idea of universalism. If he claims to be a Protestant Christian, you can take him to both church history and to the Scriptures to help him understand his feet are firmly planted in mid air. As an aside, John 3:16 by itself, speaks little of our condition in Adam, God's righteous wrath, Christ's active and passive obedience, substitutionary atonement, or imputation. By itself, it gives little information to know what to believe "in Him", what one might perish from and how one could "stand" justified before a holy and perfect God. A walk through Romans is a good prescription for what ails this person



Great. Just making sure. I agree with the exception of church history being equal to scripture. As a New Calvinist Baptist, that's probably why we have that argument to begin with. That's another debate regardless.

1.) Universalism in itself drastically undermines the urgency of evangelism. I guess the ultimate solution would be to propose the following: if Jesus died for both the sins of believer (elect) and non-believer (non-elect) simultaneously, and since universalism holds that all of those who did not accept Him during their life will regardless be justified during judgment by attesting to believe, which God will suddenly account to them, what urgency do we then have to evangelize? What urgency do we have to not only "repent" (change our minds) that Jesus is Lord aside from realizing that it's a "good" thing?

2.) Universalism largely hangs on the premise that no soul will perish in eternal judgment due to the fully atoning work of the Law through Jesus. That being said, all that needs to be proven is that at least one person in scripture either has been sent to hell or will be sent to hell for eternity. When that is accomplished, the entire premise crumbles. If we are pre-mil, we can use the false prophet and the beast as per Revelation 20:10. If we aren't, we can use the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:19-31. Ultimately, both of these events can be tied back into Hebrews 9:27.


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## Cymro

To follow up Greg's point, John3:16 is valueless without
belief in the first 3 chapters of Genesis and their attending
consequences


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## Gforce9

Mike,
I didn't not equate church history and Scripture....please read more carefully. There is much value for us Christians in what has taken place in the past. We wouldn't have the opportunity to interact on this very board if it weren't for the Westminster Assembly and subsequent Confession in 1646.....


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## Edward

Mike Gruber said:


> Heresy is just one of many sins. To say that the heretic is too far for the long arm of God's grace to touch is to say that so too is the liar, the bigot or the addict.



I (and others) apparently aren't communicating clearly. At some point the liar or the addict is going to hit bottom. These happy heretics are going to be reveling in their comfort. With the addict, you'll have an opening. with the comfortable main liners, it's going to be much more difficult. 



Mike Gruber said:


> Looking for some help.



Are you, really?


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## Mike Gruber

Edward said:


> Are you, really?



Yes.


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## Peairtach

Mike Gruber said:


> Gforce9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> I wasn't advocating reciting John 3:16 and walking away, rather, I was trying to demonstrate the truth that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and to say that you may want to consider whether to treat this individual as a brother or as one who has not been born again.
> What might be beneficial, is to find out where he gets the idea of universalism. If he claims to be a Protestant Christian, you can take him to both church history and to the Scriptures to help him understand his feet are firmly planted in mid air. As an aside, John 3:16 by itself, speaks little of our condition in Adam, God's righteous wrath, Christ's active and passive obedience, substitutionary atonement, or imputation. By itself, it gives little information to know what to believe "in Him", what one might perish from and how one could "stand" justified before a holy and perfect God. A walk through Romans is a good prescription for what ails this person
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great. Just making sure. I agree with the exception of church history being equal to scripture. As a New Calvinist Baptist, that's probably why we have that argument to begin with. That's another debate regardless.
> 
> 1.) Universalism in itself drastically undermines the urgency of evangelism. I guess the ultimate solution would be to propose the following: if Jesus died for both the sins of believer (elect) and non-believer (non-elect) simultaneously, and since universalism holds that all of those who did not accept Him during their life will regardless be justified during judgment by attesting to believe, which God will suddenly account to them, what urgency do we then have to evangelize? What urgency do we have to not only "repent" (change our minds) that Jesus is Lord aside from realizing that it's a "good" thing?
> 
> 2.) Universalism largely hangs on the premise that no soul will perish in eternal judgment due to the fully atoning work of the Law through Jesus. That being said, all that needs to be proven is that at least one person in scripture either has been sent to hell or will be sent to hell for eternity. When that is accomplished, the entire premise crumbles. If we are pre-mil, we can use the false prophet and the beast as per Revelation 20:10. If we aren't, we can use the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:19-31. Ultimately, both of these events can be tied back into Hebrews 9:27.
Click to expand...


It is explicitly said of Judas, that "he went to his own place". As far as I am aware this is the only place in Scripture where a named individual is said to be consigned to Hell, which maybe should make us careful about dogmatically asserting that a particular individual went there. But that is enough to show that not everyone goes to Heaven, along with the general testimony of Scripture about Heaven and Hell and what types of people go to Heaven and Hell.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Ken_lamb

Mike Gruber said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you, really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
Click to expand...


Hey Mike,

I'm not the most theologically knowledgable person on this board, but I can relate to your frustration with the circumstances of your family. 

But I think I understand that what others here may be trying to communicate to you. Your frustration should be put at ease with the knowledge that God is sovereign, omniscient and omnipotent. Which means in light of this conversation that truth comes into the unbeliever's heart not merely by external and logical persuasion but by the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit and regeneration.

Preach the gospel to your friends and family, for sure. But preach it first to yourself. If you feel like you're out in front of God, trying to drag Him along then it's a good sign that your gospel is not His Gospel.

He will save whom he will save and those who perish already rejected him long before that time. The most powerful thing you can do is to pray that God would convict them of their depraved nature, and that God would prepare your heart to be a suitable instrument of his Grace. 

That's my layman's two cents.


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## Berean

Mike Gruber said:


> the Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America, a group of churches who in addition to the many other heretical constructs, has adopted a position of Christian Universalism.



No advice per se, but this is a good site for information on the Minneapolis-based ELCA. They are trying "to reach and inform the 4 million plus members of the ELCA with the truth". 

Exposing the ELCA - Exposing the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America


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## C. M. Sheffield

Mike Gruber said:


> Heresy is just one of many sins.



Mike,

Heresy is indeed 'one of many sins.' However we must be careful not to accept the popular notion that all sin is equal and without degrees. It is true that all sin warrants the wrath of God and requires the forgiveness of Christ. However, some sins are of differing kinds and degrees of heinousness.

It is one thing for a person to naively accept the teaching of their liberal 'church' without giving it any serious thought. It is quite another to know and understand those false teachings and to heartily embrace them even after learning of how they are in contradiction to the Word of God and further to propagate those errors to others. While on the surface, these two individuals may appear to be the same; they are not. In the first individual, you may well be able to show them how their thinking is contrary to the Bible and they may readily turn from that error to embrace the truth of Scripture. 

However, with that second individual, you will be dealing with someone who has already heard everything you are about to say, and their ready for it! And it is't long before you realize that your every word is falling to the ground. In the moments when you are speaking, they are not sincerely listening, but rather thinking feverishly of how to dismantle your argument. They simply will not be convinced. They would not even entertain the possibility. 

Are both of these individuals guilty of error and heresy. Of course. But are their sins of the same degree or heinousness? They are not. There is a real difference between them. And it is a difference that you must understand when interacting with this family member. Is this person just merely toeing the line of his mainline liberal church but potentially open to the truth of Scripture? Or is he devoted to this heresy and prepared to defend against the like of you. The answer to that question makes all the difference in the world. 

It's the difference between bringing someone good tidings of great joy; and casting your pearls before swine.


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## One Little Nail

Unfortunately people who hold to the false doctrine of Universalisim are blinded & have a closed mindset,despite the over 200 references in the scriptures to the final destiny of the wicked words like death,perish,lost,destruction 
they maintain by an over emphasis & twisting the scriptures that refer God's Mercy & Love,Forgiveness etc.., 
the "arminian" type scriptures like "all"die in Adam & "all" shall live in Christ,God so loved the whole world, Christ was reconciling the world unto himself etc 
actually if these aren't treated in the Calvinistic fashion of limiting the all, world etc then the universalistic interpretation actually does make more sense than the Arminian,
& there stress on that other class of scripture that speak of the restoration of all things.
with this they shut there mind at Scriptures with plain references to God's wrath & judgment of the wicked,hate of sin,and Heaven & Hell, salvation being limited to those who believe etc 
unfortunately Universalism seems to be on the increase judging by the number of new websites on the net.


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## Mike Gruber

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Mike Gruber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heresy is just one of many sins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Heresy is indeed 'one of many sins.' However we must be careful not to accept the popular notion that all sin is equal and without degrees. It is true that all sin warrants the wrath of God and requires the forgiveness of Christ. However, some sins are of differing kinds and degrees of heinousness.
> 
> It is one thing for a person to naively accept the teaching of their liberal 'church' without giving it any serious thought. It is quite another to know and understand those false teachings and to heartily embrace them even after learning of how they are in contradiction to the Word of God and further to propagate those errors to others. While on the surface, these two individuals may appear to be the same; they are not. In the first individual, you may well be able to show them how their thinking is contrary to the Bible and they may readily turn from that error to embrace the truth of Scripture.
> 
> However, with that second individual, you will be dealing with someone who has already heard everything you are about to say, and their ready for it! And it is't long before you realize that your every word is falling to the ground. In the moments when you are speaking, they are not sincerely listening, but rather thinking feverishly of how to dismantle your argument. They simply will not be convinced. They would not even entertain the possibility.
> 
> Are both of these individuals guilty of error and heresy. Of course. But are their sins of the same degree or heinousness? They are not. There is a real difference between them. And it is a difference that you must understand when interacting with this family member. Is this person just merely toeing the line of his mainline liberal church but potentially open to the truth of Scripture? Or is he devoted to this heresy and prepared to defend against the like of you. The answer to that question makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> It's the difference between bringing someone good tidings of great joy; and casting your pearls before swine.
Click to expand...


Indeed. Thank you for this council. This individual is actually my (future) mother-in-law. I will have to do more digging in an effort to answer your last statement. I do not think she is aware of what qualifies by scripture as sin due to the very nature of ELCA Sunday morning worship.


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## Peairtach

Most universalists don't believe that people deserve to go to Hell, because they believe that they themselves don't deserve to go to Hell.

This is because they have little appreciation of the wickedness of sin - that it is enmity towards God and repugnant in His sight - and why Hell would be an appropriate punishment. On the former topic, there is Ralph Venning's "The Sinfulness of Sin" (which I haven't read) and on the latter topic, demonstrating why Hell is forever, there is "The Doctrine of Endless Punishment" by W.G.T. Shedd ( which I have read).

If you scratch the surface you'll find self-righteousness and a woefully inadequate view of sin behind universalism - and those who deny Hell or adopt "
annihilationism". God, on they're thinking, owes all sinners salvation because we're basically not that bad, certainly not bad enough to go to Hell forever.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## JoannaV

Yes, oftentimes the thinking is that it wouldn't be fair for anyone to go to hell because sin isn't that bad and really we deserve grace. (Except maybe a few famous evil people.) Some do see the sinfulness of sin though, but think something along the lines of, "God has shown me _such_ incredible mercy, how could such mercy not be extended to everyone else?" I guess kind of, "*I* do not deserve any special treatment, *I* am not particularly worthy of this, so therefore it must be universal."


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## Ken_lamb

Two more cents...tread lightly with your future mother in law. While it may be of vital importance that you and your bride are on the same page theologically, it is not essential to your marriage that you and your extended relatives are. 

God will give time and opportunity to witness in the more common areas of your faith. Be a person who her family holds in high regard. 

If you begin this marriage with theological battles, you may cut your wife off from her family and she could end up resenting you for it. 

Be gracious. Set boundaries. Don't be invited into every discussion on God or the bible. You will have many years to slowly and gently be an instrument of God in their lives. 

That kind of discernment will go a long way toward earning credibility in your wife's family. In the mean time, pray for them and soften your heart toward them, for they may be deaf, blind, or even dead to the truth, as you once were.


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