# Advent Wreaths and the RPW



## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

Someone please enlighten me: how do churches that subscribe to the RPW justify the lighting of Advent wreaths? Also, could someone point me to a reliable link/source that discusses the origin of Advent wreaths.

I am not trying to start an argument, just understand another perspective if someone considers this to be confessionally and biblically defensible.


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## JonathanHunt (Nov 17, 2008)

Marrow Man said:


> Someone please enlighten me: how do churches that subscribe to the RPW justify the lighting of Advent wreaths? Also, could someone point me to a reliable link/source that discusses the origin of Advent wreaths.
> 
> I am not trying to start an argument, just understand another perspective if someone considers this to be confessionally and biblically defensible.



Or, for that matter, having a Christmas tree in the pulpit!!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 17, 2008)

As an anecdotal story the Field Education placement I was at this time last year had a Christmas Tree so large that it obscured the view of the pulpit for anyone sitting in the first 5 rows on the right-hand side of the sanctuary. (Of course not that anyone would actually sit in the first 5 rows... )


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> As an anecdotal story the Field Education placement I was at this time last year had a Christmas Tree so large that it obscured the view of the pulpit for anyone sitting in the first 5 rows on the right-hand side of the sanctuary. (Of course not that anyone would actually sit in the first 5 rows... )



 How true, how true.

You could have really tripped some people out by sneaking in every Saturday evening and tipping the tree over so that it was bowed before the cross (a la Dagon in 1 Samuel). Perhaps eventually the tree would have also shattered.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 17, 2008)

I did hide the 2nd Commandment violating ornaments by placing them in the back of the tree when we were decorating it.


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## KenPierce (Nov 17, 2008)

First, no question they are excluded by the RPW.

But, you need to decide if that is a hill worth dying on. It may be accomodated by having it before the call to worship? That is what I have done, and it seemeth to work, which is the main criterion for faithful ministry, right?


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

KenPierce said:


> First, no question they are excluded by the RPW.
> 
> But, you need to decide if that is a hill worth dying on. It may be accomodated by having it before the call to worship? That is what I have done, and it seemeth to work, which is the main criterion for faithful ministry, right?



This is my second "Christmas season" at the church. We did not have it last year. No one complained to me personally, and I have the Session's support (or at least indifference). Nevertheless, there may be deep unrest among the gossip mill, and that is a much deeper problem. I don't want to foster the idea that if the congregation doesn't like a decision, they can whine and complain and someone will relent.

I have honestly thought about doing this before the CTW, but the candle would still be lit throughout the worship service and the unbiblical symbolism would still be there during worship. Plus, we have the notion among some in the congregation that tradition trumps Scripture and Confession, and that is a serious problem as well.


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## KenPierce (Nov 17, 2008)

Tim,

Just so you know --you are not alone, and this are common, if not pervasive, issues.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 17, 2008)

I don't think we should do it in the church...

But the advent season - including the advent wreath - is a treasured part of our family's Christmas traditions. 

I realize some here believe that the RPW applies not only to the corporate worship of the church, but also to families and individuals in their private devotions. To that I give a hearty: Bah, hambug!


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## OPC'n (Nov 17, 2008)

Marrow Man said:


> Someone please enlighten me: how do churches that subscribe to the RPW justify the lighting of Advent wreaths? Also, could someone point me to a reliable link/source that discusses the origin of Advent wreaths.
> 
> I am not trying to start an argument, just understand another perspective if someone considers this to be confessionally and biblically defensible.



They don't understand the RPW! The PCA church I went to before finding the OPC did this! My sister goes to a PCA in another country and they too do this! This really agitated me when I was going to this church because I don't even celebrate Christmas for Christ's birth (we celebrate it as a family get together) much less have it in the worship service.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

sjonee said:


> The PCA church I went to before finding the OPC did this! My sister goes to a PCA in another country and they too do this! This really agitated me when I was going to this church because I don't even celebrate Christmas for Christ's birth (we celebrate it as a family get together) much less have it in the worship service.



Herein lies part of my problem. I can show them standards all day long, but they are going to look at other Reformed churches (particularly those in our denomination) and say, "They're doing it! Why aren't we?" So, I have to wind up defending Confessional _normalcy_, why those who are operating outside of the RPW (forgive me, I'm not trying to offend anyone with my language) get a free pass. It is so frustrating.


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## KenPierce (Nov 17, 2008)

TIm,

It's part of the natural flow of history, sadly. ALl institutions are prone to decay. The history of the ARP is informative. THe ARP was adrift for a long time. Liberalism was on the ascendancy. Then, in the good providence of God, he brought some pastors into leadership who actually believed the gospel and, as a bonus, the Reformed faith.

But, in the meanwhile, congregations were adrift. Those that were at all faithful were likely broadly evangelical (largely the case in the PCUS, too). You are dealing with that residue, which is far better than dealing with liberal residue (maybe you are dealing with that too).

If God can turn around a church like FPC Columbia after 30 years of a gospel-less ministry through the humble witness first of a godly broad evangelical like Hugh McClure, and then a godly Reformed Yankee like Glen Knecht, he can use your witness too.

You simply have to decide which battles to pick and when, and to let the word and prayer do the primary work. Convictions and churches can change, it just often doesn't happen as fast as we would like it to.


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## Kevin (Nov 17, 2008)

Marrow Man said:


> Someone please enlighten me: how do churches that subscribe to the RPW justify the lighting of Advent wreaths? Also, could someone point me to a reliable link/source that discusses the origin of Advent wreaths.
> 
> I am not trying to start an argument, just understand another perspective if someone considers this to be confessionally and biblically defensible.



They need the extra light?


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

Kevin said:


> They need the extra light?



 Thanks, I needed the laugh.

You know, we do need to change a couple of light bulbs in the sanctuary. Perhaps you are onto something!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 17, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Someone please enlighten me: how do churches that subscribe to the RPW justify the lighting of Advent wreaths? Also, could someone point me to a reliable link/source that discusses the origin of Advent wreaths.
> ...



Kevin,

Since you are the only person I know who has any experience recently with this what is the status of "Christmas" stuff in Canadian ARP churches? 

Just as a matter of self-disclosure I may be (emphasis on the may) looking at a pulpit in the Canadian Presbytery and am curious.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

KenPierce said:


> TIm,
> 
> It's part of the natural flow of history, sadly. ALl institutions are prone to decay. The history of the ARP is informative. THe ARP was adrift for a long time. Liberalism was on the ascendancy. Then, in the good providence of God, he brought some pastors into leadership who actually believed the gospel and, as a bonus, the Reformed faith.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your wise counsel, Ken. As usual, you are spot on. My systematic theology prof at Erskine once told us, "Gentlemen, you can only fall on your sword once. Make sure it's worth it."

I think you are right in that this is probably residue from older times. The problem at MP is not liberalism, but the fact that we are far separated from other ARP churches, so there has not been much contact here. Also, the PCA is not a strong witness in the area (one PCA church, which is FV -- no help there -- and a smaller plant), and the other Presbyterian churches are liberal PC(USA) ones (it is Louisville, after all). Please pray that I would handle this and the deeper issues (Scripture v. tradition) with wisdom and winsomeness.


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## Honor (Nov 17, 2008)

hey I don't want to derail the whole thread but can someone Pm me.
What is an advent wreath? And what is RPW?
is the advent wreath like an advent calendar where you open up little windows that tell the story of Christ's birth, just on a wreath that you hang on a door?
sorry I'm totally curious.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

You're not derailing the thread, Jessica. Here's the wiki article on Advent wreaths, which should help.

BTW, I used to live in Hinesville, GA (taught mathematics for 11 years at Bradwell Institute). Nice to see a fellow Georgian.

And just to make sure this thread is back on track: Can anyone provide me with a justification of Advent wreaths that would be compatible with the RPW?


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## jwithnell (Nov 17, 2008)

We have some decoration in the sanctuary, but nothing showing any images and nothing that becomes a part of the worship service. Strangely, I'd not have a problem with an advent wreath's presence, but I'd not be comfortable with some ceremonial lighting of the candle during the actual service. 

In our family, we have a wreath on the table and talk a great deal during the advent season about how the believers of the older covenant waited for Jesus to come and the darkness of the time "between" testaments when no revelation was given.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

jwithnell said:


> We have some decoration in the sanctuary, but nothing showing any images and nothing that becomes a part of the worship service.



This one of the ways I've "bent" on the issue. We have greenery in the sanctuary (but not on the pulpit or communion table) during December, and there is a Christmas tree in the lobby (near the fellowship hall, far from the sanctuary). But somehow such consolations are not good enough. The prevailing attitude seems to be that anything less than 100% adherence to the old traditions of the congregation is unacceptable. Hence my frustration.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

Honor said:


> And what is RPW?



Sorry, overlooked this question. RPW is "Regulative Principle of Worship." See this helpful link.

At the risk of being overly simplistic, the RPW basically says that we are only to worship God in a way that is authorized/commanded in Scripture. Thus, we are not to import human innovations into worship. It would see that the Advent wreath is such an innovation; therefore, it should not be a part of worship (if one follows the RPW).

I hope I have not offended or misrepresented anyone with that description.


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## LawrenceU (Nov 17, 2008)

This one blows my mind. I can't conceive of any reason to have a Christmas tree or Advent wreath in the worship service. And, I'm half Christmas genetically!


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## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Nov 17, 2008)

Something for meditation:

Jeremiah 10 >>
Geneva Study Bible 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the nations, and be not dismayed at the {a} signs of heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them.

(a) God forbids his people to give credit or fear the constellations and conjunctions of stars and planets which have no power of themselves but are governed by him, and their secret motions and influences are not known to man and therefore there can be no certain judgment of it, De 18:9.

3 For the {b} customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

(b) Meaning not only in the observation of the stars, but their laws and ceremonies by which they confirm their idolatry, which is forbidden, De 12:30.

4 They deck it {c} with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it may not move.

(c) The prophets use thus plainly and simply to set forth the vile absurdity of the idolaters that men might learn to be ashamed of that to which their corrupt nature is most subject, Isa 44:12.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

6 Forasmuch as there is none like thee, O LORD; {d} thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

(d) He teaches the people to lift up their eyes to God, who has all power and therefore ought only to be feared: and in this he shows them not only the evil that they ought to hate: but the good which they ought to follow, Re 15:4.

7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

8 But they are altogether senseless and foolish: the stock is a {e} doctrine of vanities.

(e) Because the people thought that to have images was a means to serve God, and to bring them to the knowledge of him, he shows that nothing more displeases God, nor brings man into greater errors and ignorance of God: and therefore he calls them the doctrine of vanity, the work of errors, Jer 10:15. Hab 2:18 calls them the teachers of lies: contrary to that wicked opinion, that they are the books of the lay people.

9 Silver beaten into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold {f} from Uphaz, the work of the craftsman, and of the hands of the goldsmith: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of skilful men.

(f) Where they found the best gold; showing that they thought nothing too dear for their idols, some read Ophir as in 1Ki 9:28.

10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

11 Thus shall ye say to them, The gods {g} that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

(g) This declares that all that has been spoken of idols in this chapter, was to arm the Jews when they would be in Chaldea among the idolaters, and now with one sentence he instructs them both how to protest their own religion against the idolaters and how to answer them to their shame who would exhort them to idolatry, and therefore he writes this sentence in the Chaldean tongue for a memorial while all the rest of his writing is in Hebrew.

12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

14 Every man is {h} senseless in his knowledge: every goldsmith is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

(h) The more man thinks to do anything well by his own wisdom, and not as God instructs him, the more he proves himself to be a vile beast.

15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

16 The {i} portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name.

(i) By these words, portion and rod, he signifies their inheritance, meaning that God would be all sufficient for them: and that their happiness consisted in him alone, and therefore they ought to renounce all other help and comfort as of idols, etc. De 32:9, Ps 16:5.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 17, 2008)

LawrenceU said:


> This one blows my mind. I can't conceive of any reason to have a Christmas tree or Advent wreath in the worship service.


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## Kevin (Nov 17, 2008)

Ben, you will find that "Christmas stuff" is mixed in most Canadian Presbyterian churches. The ARP is more likely to be home to RP type of people then the others. But you have all types.

The issue that most people have faced in the mainline churches here has been real liberalism. In other words, denials of the faith. So when they leave & join or form a new congregation in the ARP or PCA they are happy to hear the gospel preached & sin condemned.

Issues that many here on this board consider the essence of the reformed faith, are simply unknown to most here. As an example I was asked this past Sunday by a lifelong presbterian & (adult) daughter of an elder ask me what was the regulative principle.

If you walked into most congregations & told people that xmas was a non-christian holiday & they should not have instrements in worship, etc. (fill in the blank), most people would honestly think you were from some type of strange cult.

When you have spent the last 50 years defending your beloved church from liberalism, feminism, & homosexual clergy, the idea that lighting a candle at christmas (in you new conservative church) is "un-presbyterian" sounds downright strange.


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## Kevin (Nov 17, 2008)

Chaplainintraining said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > This one blows my mind. I can't conceive of any reason to have a Christmas tree or Advent wreath in the worship service.



It is called local culture. It may not be a valid reason, but that is why.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 17, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > LawrenceU said:
> ...



Oh I understand. My dad fought each and every year about a tree in the church. I personally do not see the reason for or benefit of having one, but as you pointed out earlier at least they are hearing the Gospel preached and sin condemned.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 17, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Ben, you will find that "Christmas stuff" is mixed in most Canadian Presbyterian churches. The ARP is more likely to be home to RP type of people then the others. But you have all types.
> 
> The issue that most people have faced in the mainline churches here has been real liberalism. In other words, denials of the faith. So when they leave & join or form a new congregation in the ARP or PCA they are happy to hear the gospel preached & sin condemned.
> 
> ...



Thanks Kevin. As one who is himself an exile from the Liberal "church" I fully understand what you write. 

Blessings Kevin.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 17, 2008)

Along the lines of Jeremiah 10 that you posted above, Duane, perhaps I should preach on the following text next Lord's Day:



> When Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, “Is it you, you troubler of Israel?” And he answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the Lord and followed the Baals. 1 Kings 18:17-18


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## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Nov 17, 2008)

Also, take into consideration the pagan origins of such practices...there are a few books and online information on these "symbols", and I have to tell you, if one is coming out of the religion of any one of the various religions that used them, or even someone who has studied "religions" and gets saved...they might get a little confused when they see these things in a Church building.

Could be putting a stumbling block before a weaker brother???


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