# What ever Happened to what the Bible says? ELCA Cult?



## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 15, 2013)

Lutherans take surprise step in electing female presiding bishop | Religion News Service



> “We can disagree on decisions as long as we agree on the cross,” she said. “My goal is to make sure we make room for the possibility that people disagree, that they are fully Lutheran, fully valued and fully part of this denomination.”Bishop Elect Rev. Elizabeth Eaton ELCA



But what if the Cross doesn't agree with them? What does fully Lutheran mean? When do we consider denominations non-Christian cults. The PCUSA has gone the way of godless humanitarian over God's wishes also. Why don't these guys just go write a manifesto decrying the falseness of the scriptures and start using their own name. Luther, Knox, Calvin, St. John, Mark, Matthew, Luke.... etc... are all ashamed that their names are being used to promote such wickedness. It is a sad day when we call evil good and what is good evil.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 16, 2013)

Elca= Lutheran(Luther) as TEC= Anglicanism(Cranmer) as PCUSA=Presbyterian(Knox). I imagine they keep the names because it pleases them to do so in their apostasy. And it keeps the sleeping laity in the pews and filing the plates, of course. And it keeps their property(amassed when they were faithful) under their control.


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## KSon (Aug 16, 2013)

When "churches", who are to reflect the transcendent holiness and glory of our God as the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15), abandon God's revelation to us in His Holy Word, this is what you get. "God is still speaking", "What Paul was saying was cultural to Ephesus/Corinth", pure blasphemous rubbish. 

The perversion of the created order, again which the church is to reflect into a perishing, perverting culture, creeps ever so easily into "churches" when the Scripture is no longer the sole authority in all things of faith and practice. 

May God have mercy on their souls.


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## ThyWord IsTruth (Aug 16, 2013)

The Lutheran denomination should have changed it's name long ago from the "Lutheran's" to the "Melanchthion's" or better yet "Phillipists". It's been a move towards ecumenical peace and compromise on the Word of God since the Leipzig Interim culminating into what we see now.


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2013)

5-Point Baptist said:


> The Lutheran denomination should have changed it's name long ago from the "Lutheran's" to the "Melanchthion's"



Really? For some reason I was always under the impression that Melancthon was actually more reformed than Luther. I thought his views were closer in line with Calvins.


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## joejohnston3 (Aug 16, 2013)

Amen!! This has been my heart cry and passion lately!! We must obey the Word of God otherwise we are under His judgment. Yes, our forefathers in the faith would be sick beyond words!!!



PuritanCovenanter said:


> Lutherans take surprise step in electing female presiding bishop | Religion News Service
> 
> 
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> ...


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## Elizabeth (Aug 16, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> 5-Point Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > The Lutheran denomination should have changed it's name long ago from the "Lutheran's" to the "Melanchthion's"
> ...



And some folks say Luther was more of a Calvinist than Calvin, in certain respects. I think PM took a more reformed-leaning view of real presence the Lord's Supper.

Would that American Lutherans were more like either men, though. The American Lutheran confessionals seem to be running to Rome, in so many instances, in my opinion. They are certainly united by their vocal(and rather rude, in my opinion) disdain for their reformed brethren. But I think that is because Lutherans tend to be not very well read, theologically speaking, outside of their own camp.


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## Zach (Aug 16, 2013)

Today our Pastor preached at the funeral for a dear departed Sister who was the first member to join our Church plant after leaving the ELCA congregation that she had been in much of her adult life. He shared that when asked why she wanted to join our church, she said that she didn't want to stand before the Lord Jesus when she died and be asked why she stayed in a church that didn't believe his word.

What a shame that this denomination has forsaken the faith. May many others flee from it.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 16, 2013)

ELCA is one of the mainline denoms that are in free fall. The issue of their presiding bishop is secondary to their other issues.




* ELCA met in 2009 to vote on the blessing of gay and lesbian unions as well as for the ordination of gays and lesbians in partnered relationships. It passed. At the hour when the session was to begin lightning struck the steeple in a freak storm and knocked the cross loose. "The church bells all were broken." John Piper took heat for blogging that the tornado and the lightning strike were God's providence. He concluded by saying: 


> The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin. Turn from the promotion of behaviors that lead to destruction. Reaffirm the great Lutheran heritage of allegiance to the truth and authority of Scripture. Turn back from distorting the grace of God into sensuality. Rejoice in the pardon of the cross of Christ and its power to transform left and right wing sinners.



* This summer ELCA's Southwest Synod (including Los Angeles) elected its first openly gay bishop. Rev. R. Guy Erwin teaches theology at Cal Lutheran and was only ordained two years ago (he waited until 2009 to exercise the privilege granted in the 2009 ELCA convention vote).

* A blogger who seems to work full time to chronicle problems in the ELCA, names the following areas of concern, including views of:
1) the Bible, 
2) Universal Salvation, 
3) Homosexuality,
4) Goddess Worship/Mother god and gender neutral language, 
5) Israel, 
6) Abortion, 
7) Prophecy, 
8) Called to Common Mission, 
9) Gospel Reductionism - Antinomianism, 



> The ELCA, which has lost members nearly every year since its founding in 1987, saw the biggest drop when it lost nearly half a million members in 2010 and 2011, the most recent numbers available. The ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S., with more than 4 million members in 9,638 congregations.



Don't confuse ELCA with several conservative and confessional Lutheran bodies worldwide (including the LCMS here in America) that hold firmly to inerrancy, orthodox theology, and biblical sexual morality.

ELCA is to confessional Lutheran theology as PCUSA is to confessional Reformed theology.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 17, 2013)

This is a sign of the times on one issue. You should see what the stats show on doctrines! Only one mainline denomination has a majority with problems with lay LEADERS who are openly GLBT!





Mainline attitudes on most doctrinal points mirror this difference about the Bible.


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## DMcFadden (Aug 17, 2013)

This is my final chart and it comes from the Calvin Center for Social Research (2009)


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## Unoriginalname (Aug 17, 2013)

DMcFadden said:


> This is my final chart and it comes from the Calvin Center for Social Research (2009)
> 
> View attachment 3582




That would make it seem that there was an increase in theological conservatism in both evangelicalism and the mainline, at least when it comes to numbers of people.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 17, 2013)

5-Point Baptist said:


> The Lutheran denomination should have changed it's name long ago from the "Lutheran's" to the "Melanchthion's" or better yet "Phillipists". It's been a move towards ecumenical peace and compromise on the Word of God since the Leipzig Interim culminating into what we see now.



The "Phillipists" became the German Reformed Church. Modern day Lutheranism does not inherit its errors from Melancthon. 

After the Diet of Augsburg Lutherans split into two groups

Melancthon was initially viewed as Luther's successor but as Melancthon remained in conversation with the other Reformers his views o the Sacraments developed where he had a view of spiritual presence in the Lord's Supper and a more "Calvinistic" view of predestination.

A "strict group" was led by Matthias Illyricus (from Slovak area) and they excluded from their doctrine the Reformed view of Lord’s Supper and insisted upon consubstantiation and further rejected the Calvinistic view of predestination.

The Phillipists became more distinctly Reformed and were accused of being "crypto Calvinists" by Illyricus and his followers. The main bone of contention was the Lord's Supper.

Melancthon produced a revised version of the Augsburg Confession in 1540 that had a more Reformed view than before and was rejected as too Calvinistic by "strict" Lutherans.

The Formula of Concord in 1577 pretty much settled the issue in rejecting Melancthon's (and followers) views, settling on the current Lutheran view of the Lord's supper and rejecting the Calvinistic view of predestination.

None of the Phillipists would subscribe and the German Reformed Church arose out of this group. The RCUS traces its roots to the German Reformed Church.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 17, 2013)

Returning to the OP, I examined three men this morning for our Presbytery's credentialing committee and I was pressing a few men to connect the views of Schleiermacher to Kant because we need to understand where ideas arise.

The sad truth is that a lot of these false teachers are deceived into thinking that they're actually teaching from the Scriptures. They would not admit that they're denying the Scriptures but it all boils down to the way they approach them. As one example, Neo-orthodoxy creates a virtual blank canvas for men to pour ideas into the Scriptures.

Listen carefully as well to how often you hear people say that the primary message of Jesus was loving neighbor and social justice. They'll then talk generically about the "trajectory" of the Scriptures toward a loving ideal. Plug in "loving ideal" to whatever that is and, Voila!, you've got Scripture to back up whatever issue you believe is loving or promotes social justice. The historical and propositional content for most ministers is absolutely immaterial to what they believe the Scriptures are actually about.

What's the common canard about women submitting to men? Well, you see, when you _really_ study the Scriptures (since the 1960's especially) what you find is that it's all about mutual submission. Oh, and don't forget to throw up a bunch of distracting "scholarly" content that points out that Prostitutes shaved their heads. Add a bit of social justice and love into the mix (because that's what the Scriptures teach) and now you've convinced people who are easily distracted that we were misinterpreting the plain meaning of Scripture all along.

You listen to this stuff long enough and everybody is blindly running in the same well worn grooves. They don't know the Scriptures for themselves but they have "scholarship" that tells them that all sorts of things that the Scriptures teach against are actually what the Scriptures plainly teach.

It's rare to find someone who is actually convinced they're teaching completely against the Scriptures but incredibly common to find people with an incredibly goofy hermeneutic that allows them to take "social issue", shake and stir with a "love and social justice" hermeneutic, and discover that the Scriptures teach precisely what they want to hear. When seen in this light it is incredibly sad to witness.

The sad irony of all of this is how often these false teachers like to go to Amos for his strong social justice teaching but it is in Amos where we find their poverty. As the prophet recounts all the ways God has afflicted the people of God for refusing to hear Him (with war, famine, etc), the prophet predicts the worst judgment that can be visited upon the Church:



> “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord God,
> “when I will send a famine on the land—
> not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
> but of hearing the words of the Lord.
> ...


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## arapahoepark (Aug 17, 2013)

So who is the most liberal of the seven mainlines now?


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## Edward (Aug 17, 2013)

arap said:


> So who is the most liberal of the seven mainlines now?



UCC. They got a lead of at least a generation, but it's a horse race to the bottom now.


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