# Baptist Fire



## RamistThomist (Jul 6, 2004)

If any here are ready to test their debating skills among some of the more vocal southern baptists, then I would recommend this site:  http://www.baptistfire.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi


Now a word of caution, go here only if you are bored. These people are KJV sympathetic (not quite onlyist), pretribulational, Dave Hunt-soteriology. In fact, if you post any calvinistic messages you will be banned. But if you want to see what &quot;the other side of the coin, especiallly the laymen,&quot; then look here.


----------



## heartoflesh (Jul 6, 2004)

From the article http://www.baptistfire.com/calvinism/crept.shtml on their website:


The Calvinists have a clear tactic -- deceitfulness in your pulpit!

While theologically in error, Calvinists are not stupid. Calvinists realize that the vast majority of Southern Baptists believe Jesus loves the whole world. Calvinists know that Southern Baptists overwhelmingly believe that Jesus desires the salvation of everyone. The Calvinists are smart enough to realize that if they should openly promote their beliefs in Southern Baptist pulpits, most churches would boot them out so fast it would make their heads spin.

The challenge, then, for the Southern Baptist Calvinists is how to convert Southern Baptist churches to Calvinism without letting the local churches know that the primary goal is to convert the church to Calvinist theology. Sounds impossible? It's not. In order to meet this challenge, Founders Ministries has a how-to-do-it manual on their web site for covertly converting a church to Calvinism.

[end of paragraph]

Why does this stuff sound like it belongs in a tabloid? It's absolutely juvenile to the core! Maybe more people are actually becoming Calvinists because they're starting to think for themselves, instead of being led around by these baptist fire fundies.


----------



## RamistThomist (Jul 6, 2004)

When I first discovered the site I was elated, for it gave me ammunition against liberalism and charismania (you ask, why did you not go to pboard? Well, I didn't know of it). And at the time, I was half-persuaded that calvinism was right, but I knew that these were straw-men of massive proportions. This site has two purposes: 1)Remind the world that the SBC was liberal 20 years ago and rejoice in the fact that it is now conservative; 2)warn otherwise innocent pastors of this new theological innovation called Calvinism. I even heard one pastor on the site condemn calvinism and boast that he was not one of the elect:blah1:, among other charges of the &quot;false god of Augustine.&quot;

At the time I left Baptistfire I found A Puritansmind. BTW, Matthew, your website was a decisive factor in me coming to Calvinism:thumbup:


----------



## king of fools (Jul 7, 2004)

The following is from their website:

&quot;Several months ago we posted the following in the announcements section: 

In recent days we've had numerous Calvinists post their theology on BaptistFire community. Then after we delete their postings they get upset with us. The rules are very clear -- postings which promote five-point Calvinist theology are not permitted. Occasionally something will slip by but that's the exception, not the rule. So take note. If you are looking for a debate with a five-pointer this is not the place to be. Thanks. 

The BaptistFire Community forum exists as a safe haven for Bible-believing Baptists who are largely in agreement with us theologically. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to determine what we believe. Our masthead on the main page spells it out. If that isn't clear enough our featured sermons, book reviews, and the rest should clear up any doubt. &quot;

It is their website, but they seem to me to be mean-spirited, harsh and judgemental.

Someone is also trying to suggest that Spurgeon wasn't a Calvinist.


----------



## Authorised (Jul 7, 2004)

&quot;jbd3, although I do not disagree with you as to some Calvinists being actually saved, (by mistake no doubt), the god of Calvinism is NOT The God of the Bible, at all. 

The god of Calvinism is much closer to the character of Satan than the true God of the Bible. 

The god of Calvinism is a god of Hate, and certainly cannot ever be accused of the Biblical attribute, 

GOD IS LOVE.&quot;

--Biblicist, from BaptistFire


See? Calvinists don't hardly have to break a sweat to prove man's total depravity.


[Edited on (7/8/04) by Authorised]


----------



## Herald (May 5, 2006)

I have differing opinions on the SBC. On the one hand I tip my hat to the Founders Movement. They are trying to change the SBC from the inside. On the other hand I see value in those SBC churches that are Calvinistic breaking off from the SBC and starting their own association. Sometimes I think the SBC's days are numbered.


----------



## LadyFlynt (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> I have differing opinions on the SBC. On the one hand I tip my hat to the Founders Movement. They are trying to change the SBC from the inside. On the other hand I see value in those SBC churches that are Calvinistic breaking off from the SBC and starting their own association. Sometimes I think the SBC's days are numbered.



 except the part about their days being numbered.

How funny that they should say we are "saved (by mistake)". God makes mistakes now???

BTW, hubby and his family were all raised SBC...I went SBC as a teen when I met him. We have friends that are STILL SBC and talking with them is sad. One is open to mysticism and sees no contradiction. Another has to ask me to explain in small steps to her what I am talking about...and most things she admittedly has never even thought about. The churches have turned into 10min sermons on nothing (we visited the church we were married in occasionally). No one even says hi to eachother after service. Even our friends can't get close to anyone in the church that they GREW UP IN! When they were engaged, half the church told them that they need to prepare in case of divorce...we were the only ones (and we were already gone from the church) that told them to knock that word from their vocabulary and be determined otherwise if they even want a chance (they have a wonderful marriage now and are expecting babe #2)...now they are moving back to that area and her hubby wants to go back to that church 

I hope the Founders start a little more ruckus.


----------



## beej6 (May 5, 2006)

The SBC are big. Do we have any idea how big the Calvinist/Founders movement is within the SBC? Even if it's only 5%, they would still form a group of more than 800,000... I daresay they would be the largest Reformed Baptist group.


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by king of fools_
> Someone is also trying to suggest that Spurgeon wasn't a Calvinist.



Perhaps I should post at their website and state that Spurgeon is one of the greatest evangelist the Christian Church has ever known and then give them a link to my signature quote, but then again why waste my time.


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> I have differing opinions on the SBC. On the one hand I tip my hat to the Founders Movement. They are trying to change the SBC from the inside. On the other hand I see value in those SBC churches that are Calvinistic breaking off from the SBC and starting their own association. Sometimes I think the SBC's days are numbered.



This year COULD be a pivotal year. The Mohler-Patterson "debate" at the SBC annual meeting could get the ball rolling. I doubt that most Calvinistic Southern Baptists and/or members of the Founders Movement, which I am one, believe that the SBC can be "converted" to Calvinism, but you can be sure that we will have our say. I pray that a true revival could take place in the SBC, but that is God's doing. I will continue to promote the doctrines of grace and probably always be the odd man out as long as I stay in the SBC.


----------



## LadyFlynt (May 5, 2006)

Why? Because you have that SBC access and that quote to their comment about Spurgeon not being a Calvinist would be priceless and worth a banning...LOL!


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> BTW, hubby and his family were all raised SBC...I went SBC as a teen when I met him. We have friends that are STILL SBC and talking with them is sad. One is open to mysticism and sees no contradiction. Another has to ask me to explain in small steps to her what I am talking about...and most things she admittedly has never even thought about. The churches have turned into 10min sermons on nothing (we visited the church we were married in occasionally). No one even says hi to eachother after service. Even our friends can't get close to anyone in the church that they GREW UP IN! When they were engaged, half the church told them that they need to prepare in case of divorce...we were the only ones (and we were already gone from the church) that told them to knock that word from their vocabulary and be determined otherwise if they even want a chance (they have a wonderful marriage now and are expecting babe #2)...now they are moving back to that area and her hubby wants to go back to that church
> 
> I hope the Founders start a little more ruckus.



Colleen, 

In my humble opinion, you did not experience a typical Southern Baptist church. Yes, I have know many that have their problems, some worse than you have stated, but I would say what you experienced is not typical. I have NEVER been in a Southern Baptist church that said that newlyweds should prepare for divorce. Quite the contrary. What I was taught in Southern Baptist churches is what you told the couple...take the word out of your vocabulary. 

Also, I've never attended a Southern Baptist worship service where the sermon was 10 minutes. I know a few that have as short as 20 minutes. When I preach at my church, which the pastor graciously lets me do even though he knows I'm a Calvinist, the members "settle in" because they know the sermon is going to be a little longer (about 35 to 40 minutes). It doesn't seem to bother them in the least. 

As far as Purpose-Driven SBC churches and pop psychology preachers, well, I know a few. In fact, I believe these pose the greatest threats to our Southern Baptist churches right now, as well to many other churches of other denominations. I fear for Southern Baptist churches across Amercia and I believe the Founders Movement could be used of God to save the Convention, but it will be a long, hard, dirty road.

As far as the Founders Movement starting a ruckus, well, let's see what happens in Greensboro. BTW, MarK Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., will be preaching at the Founders meeting prior to the Annual Meeting. He will be preaching on election and evangelism. Too bad I can't go. Maybe I would cause a ruckus.


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Why? Because you have that SBC access and that quote to their comment about Spurgeon not being a Calvinist would be priceless and worth a banning...LOL!



Hmmm...might be worth it.  You know I can be a pill at times.


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by beej6_
> The SBC are big. Do we have any idea how big the Calvinist/Founders movement is within the SBC? Even if it's only 5%, they would still form a group of more than 800,000... I daresay they would be the largest Reformed Baptist group.



Yes, the SBC is big, but the numbers are deceptive. I don't know what number they are using lately....17,000,000??? I don't know, but I KNOW that we don't really have that many members. I'd say, at best, it's probably closer to half of that and those who are truly committed Christians is much smaller than that. And it's hard to say how many Calvinist there are. I'm sure the number would be in the thousands, but not 800,000. More like 80,000 I'd guess.


----------



## Herald (May 5, 2006)

> The Mohler-Patterson "debate" at the SBC annual meeting could get the ball rolling.



I am trusting in the sovereignty of God regarding the future of the SBC. Debates usually appeal to those who follow them. But for the majority in the SBC it will fall on deaf ears. Still, God is sovereign and He will use any and all means to bring forth change if He deems it warranted. 

My church is independent. Of course, that is a Baptist distinctive.  Still, if the Founders Movement churches broke off from the SBC they could create a powerful voice for good. I can see our church aligning with them. Mark Dever's church is 30 minutes from us. I could see Dever playing a pivotal role in any new association.


----------



## Herald (May 5, 2006)

btw...nice to see the Baptists in here agreeing on something. Normally when you get three or more Baptists there is an argument over the carpet color or a potluck dinner breaks out.


----------



## Herald (May 5, 2006)

Come on Rich...you attend an SBC church (*cough*). What say you?

[Edited on 5-5-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]


----------



## Ivan (May 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> 
> 
> > The Mohler-Patterson "debate" at the SBC annual meeting could get the ball rolling.
> ...



YES! God's will be done. 

As far as the majority of the SBC, I doubt that they will even hear ABOUT the debate. I'd say most rank and file members of the SBC have no concern about Calvinism or Arminianism. I'd go so far to say that they don't have a clue as to what these terms mean. 

And I haven't seen a Southern Baptist church that wasn't independent.

And I'd vote for Dever for SBC president, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------

