# RTS AND WESTMINSTER



## Preach (May 5, 2004)

Does anyone know the tuition cost for these schools? In addition, how much time has to be spent on campus? Thanks.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by fredtgreco]


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## fredtgreco (May 5, 2004)

RTS is $285 a credit hour, but if a church sponsors you at 1/3 of tuition, RTS almost always gives a 1/3 of tuition scholarship.

I'm not sure what you mean by how much time on campus.


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## wsw201 (May 5, 2004)

At WTS Dallas, if you are under Presbytery Care they will cut tuition up to 40%, which is a big incentive because from what I have heard their tuition is high.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 5, 2004)

RTS is $285/credit.
http://www.rts.edu/info/finance01.cfm

Westminster CA is $280/credit. http://www.wscal.edu/pstudents/admissions.html

Westminster East is $305/credit
http://www.wts.edu/admissions/tuition.html

Mid America Reformed Seminary is $150/credit
http://www.midamerica.edu/application.htm

Greenville is $100/credit
www.gpts.edu


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## Preach (May 5, 2004)

Thanks for the information everyone. Fred, what I meant was is there any distance learning or is it all on campus? I am advising a young man who lives here in MD., has limited resources, and a young and growing family (wife and three children). He has a good secular job, and is under the care of a church sesion. It seems that the best situation for him is an M.Div. from a distance learning school like Greenville, Bahnsen, or Whitefield.


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## fredtgreco (May 5, 2004)

[quote:3e60378a5d][i:3e60378a5d]Originally posted by Preach[/i:3e60378a5d]
Thanks for the information everyone. Fred, what I meant was is there any distance learning or is it all on campus? I am advising a young man who lives here in MD., has limited resources, and a young and growing family (wife and three children). He has a good secular job, and is under the care of a church sesion. It seems that the best situation for him is an M.Div. from a distance learning school like Greenville, Bahnsen, or Whitefield. [/quote:3e60378a5d]

Bobby,

You can get a full MA (60 credits) via distance. There is also an RTS extention in Washington. The MDiv is 106 credits, and you can combine work from the various campuses. You may want to go to www.rtsvirtual.edu

This does not reflect at all on the actual quality of education, but my opinion is that for pastoral ministry and ordination in the PCA or OPC, a completely virtual degree from Whitefield or Bahnsen will be very difficult (if not impossible) to get a Presbytery to approve (you might want to discuss this with Matthew, who is finding his doctorate will be unacceptable to most schools). You want to make sure that the degree is not useless for ordination purposes, even if it is a solid education. Greenville will have a better chance with a Presbytery as well.


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## BlackCalvinist (May 6, 2004)

I'm actually planning on enrolling at RTSVirtual.org in the fall for the M.A.R. program and seeing if I can get the remaining credits for the M.Div from one of their local satellite campuses (DC).

I've always found their program impressive, just in comparison to other programs at other schools.

Fred - is it possible for me to do the remaining credits after an M.A.R. to get up to an M.Div at a satellite campus ?


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## Puritan Sailor (May 6, 2004)

[quote:9f0e75318f][i:9f0e75318f]Originally posted by OS_X[/i:9f0e75318f]
I'm actually planning on enrolling at RTSVirtual.org in the fall for the M.A.R. program and seeing if I can get the remaining credits for the M.Div from one of their local satellite campuses (DC).

I've always found their program impressive, just in comparison to other programs at other schools.

Fred - is it possible for me to do the remaining credits after an M.A.R. to get up to an M.Div at a satellite campus ? [/quote:9f0e75318f]
Most likely not. The accrediting agency for the M Div degree (the Association of Theological Schools) requires that 2/3's of the M Div credits be made while on campus. RTS must abide by those standards too. But you could do 1/3 of your credits through distance learning.


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## Preach (May 6, 2004)

Fred,
I have two questions: (1) If students that graduate from Bahnsen, Whitefield, and Greenville cannot be ordainrd, how have those who gave graduated from those schools become pastors? (2) The young man that I am advising has a B.A. degree from a distance learning school (non-accrdited). Will an accredited school like RTS or WTS accept him into the M.Div. program?
Thanks,
Bobby


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## fredtgreco (May 7, 2004)

Bobby,

I'm travelling, so I'll get back with you soon.


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## alwaysreforming (May 7, 2004)

Bobby:
From what I know, the way certain people who graduate with a distance degree (or any unaccredited degree) become pastors is that they apply for jobs with a church who either does not have the requirement that the degree be accredited or who are willing to make an exception based on some other factors about the candidate.
What some of the members have been expressing here is that without a degree being accredited, you are simply giving yourself a HUGE hurdle to have to jump over in order to land the job. Do huge hurdles sometimes get scaled? Yes, but that is more an exception than the rule. It is without a doubt MUCH better to have an accredited degree than a non-accredited any time you are wanting the degree for anything other than personal enrichment. If you need QUALIFICATIONS, then accreditation speaks volumes!

If you looked through 100 reputable pastor employment adds, then 90 of them are going to ask for your degree to be from an accredited school.

Just my :wr50:


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## Preach (May 8, 2004)

Thanks for the insights. Yet, I would like to explore the issue a little more. We are not talking about a secular job. If the distance school is of the same quality or better, and stands in the same tradition as the acreddited schools, then why would an ordination council turn the man away. For example, I understand that an accredited institution (because it is accredted) has certain requirements in hiring professors. But an ordination process is not controlled by any hierarchy. It is simply a group of called out men acknowledging, or declining another man. Is it a pride issue (not in a pejorative sense, but like a club). Do the presbyterys understand the quality of instruction from the distance schools, or have they apriori rejected them, perhaps because they had to pick up their families, sell their houses, quit their jobs, and move to a campus? What am I missing in this discussion? I'm trying to understand the mentality and not pass judgment. Thanks.
&quot;In Christ&quot;,
Bobby


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## alwaysreforming (May 8, 2004)

Bobby,
I agree wholeheartedly with what your saying, and with your frustration in it. I am very interested in gaining a seminary education and could do quite well with Whitefield, etc. as I'm very disciplined and don't need whatever the &quot;accreditation&quot; is supposed to provide me; I only need the education.
I could save a lot of money by choosing a non-accredited school, but I know that should I wish to pastor a church somewhere that my chances are going to be severely limited without the accreditation. You'd think, in line with your argument, that it wouldn't be nearly the big deal that it is. I've just had a thought as I type this:
it could be that people are just too steeped in tradition. In past decades, if your school wasn't accredited, it typically spoke volumes about the quality of your education. There were many &quot;scam&quot; schools out there (still are) providing a &quot;degree&quot; in exchange for money. Or the school didn't have accreditation because it didn't have qualified instructors, or adequate library facilities, or other resources crucial to a quality education. These days, however, with the proliferation of the internet, and with the abundance of resources that have been made available to people (audio, video, CD Rom, etc), we are not nearly as dependent on a &quot;school&quot; being the containers of information for us. Perhaps sometime in the near future the presbyteries and other councils will rely less on what has traditionally been accepted as the only reliable indicator of a quality education and will see the value of the schools like Whitefield, Bahnsen, etc. Hopefully.....


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## fredtgreco (May 14, 2004)

[quote:46604b5a2d][i:46604b5a2d]Originally posted by Preach[/i:46604b5a2d]
Fred,
I have two questions: (1) If students that graduate from Bahnsen, Whitefield, and Greenville cannot be ordainrd, how have those who gave graduated from those schools become pastors? (2) The young man that I am advising has a B.A. degree from a distance learning school (non-accrdited). Will an accredited school like RTS or WTS accept him into the M.Div. program?
Thanks,
Bobby [/quote:46604b5a2d]

Bobby,

Sorry that it has been so long, but I wanted to reply. I don't want to imply that it is impossible for a man to get ordained with a wholly distance degree or a degree from the above schools. I just think that it makes it more difficult. To be honest, I think Greenville is a great school, and Joey Pipa, Morton Smith, Ben Shaw and the others there are top rate theologians and pastors. But it is a younger school, and is in a definite &quot;camp&quot; in the PCA/OPC (not that that is bad - I'm in the same camp!)

My thought was that I will have enough trouble getting ordained because I actually believe the Confession, and I did not want to add another &quot;barrier.&quot; I also think that there is merit in distance ed, but that it raises questions and barriers (like what Matt said about his Doctorate). Some questions are illegitimate, others are legitimate. In my mind, the biggest question is preaching in such a system. To be honest, the vast majority of preaching in Reformed (and other) churches is bad. And preaching is the most important aspect of the ministry. I'm really not sure how someone can develop and learn proper preaching either by distance or in a compressed course. Anyone who says that you can, in my opinion, is fooling himself. That is why Greenville, while it has distance ed, will still encourage you to come there.

At RTS-Jackson, for example, preaching is the focal point of three preaching classes and three language classes. More than 18 degree hours have at their core preparing and delivering sermons. The average RTS-Jackson grad has preached 12-15 times in class; many other schools only have 1-3 preaching occasions.

So while I think distance ed is very valuable, I would not treat it as a sure bet. Honestly (and I do not mean to offend), before I went to a Presbytery with an MDiv from Whitfield or Bahnsen I would save even that amount of money and put together a good self study course directed by a local minister. You will have about the same chance of ordination.


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## dkicklig (May 14, 2004)

Here's my :wr50:
Going to an accreditted school is a necessary evil. We all recognize that the education we can receive from Bahnsen, Whitfield, etal is entirely sufficient, if not superior to, RTS or GPTS. But the ordinaining presbyteries of the PCA/OPC have set accredidation as one of the minimum standards for a seminary degree. If you seek ordination through them this is one of the hoops.
I also don't think that ordination should be as easy as taking you entire coursework in the comfort of your home office. Training for the pastorate should never be easy. There are intagibles that come with attending at a campus.

But, they also don't say you can't be creative. Here's what I plan to do...I live in Atlanta and am applying to the MDiv program at RTS-Charlotte. They have an extension campus here and I'll take some classes virtual along with modules. Rumor has it they will have the MDiv here in Atlanta in the next 2 years. If that doesn't happen I will have to move or commute to Charlotte to fulfill the residency requirement. It's probably going to take 5-7 years to complete. 

Long story short to get your Rev. requires a certain amount of hoop jumping, as does CPA, JD, MD, DDS, etc. But if God desires an individual in ministry He will bring all things to pass.


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## fredtgreco (May 14, 2004)

David,

In general I agree. But I do not agree with the sentence below.

[quote:0ff0a4ce9a][i:0ff0a4ce9a]Originally posted by dkicklig[/i:0ff0a4ce9a]
We all recognize that the education we can receive from Bahnsen, Whitfield, etal is entirely sufficient, if not superior to, RTS or GPTS.[/quote:0ff0a4ce9a]


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## Christopher (May 14, 2004)

Hey, I know a place where you can pay $25 and have your Ph.D. LOL


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## Irishcat922 (May 14, 2004)

Fred said

My thought was that I will have enough trouble getting ordained because I actually believe the Confession, and I did not want to add another &quot;barrier.&quot; 

Why in the P.C.A. is that such a big issue now adays? Does that stem from The U.S.A.ers or simply modernism, or both? I have read some of the debates over ammendment and I don't always get the point. 
My personal opinion is if you are want to minister in the Presbyterian Church and don't hold to the confession. You picked the wrong denomination. Find one that holds to your system of belief. I mean that is not that hard is it?


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## panicbird (May 14, 2004)

Christopher, 

Sweet! How do I sign up? That sure beats paying thousands and actually doing work and stuff. 

Lon


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## dkicklig (May 14, 2004)

[quote:2c74451cff][i:2c74451cff]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:2c74451cff]
David,

In general I agree. But I do not agree with the sentence below.

[quote:2c74451cff][i:2c74451cff]Originally posted by dkicklig[/i:2c74451cff]
We all recognize that the education we can receive from Bahnsen, Whitfield, etal is entirely sufficient, if not superior to, RTS or GPTS.[/quote:2c74451cff] [/quote:2c74451cff]

I understand what you mean, let me restate...the book learning may be sufficient and you may get to do more research, but it's the intagibles (classroom interaction, preaching) that distance learning cannot provide.


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## Preach (May 14, 2004)

Fred,
Thanks for the thoughts. I think I have a better understanding now. I can appreciate the focus on preaching. Just a few minutes ago I finsihed viewing the dvd that I received from Greenville. The focus througout (at least it was my impression) was on preaching and geography. They kept emphasizing the Word of God proclaimed and exegeted from the original languages, as well as the beauty of the state of South Carolina. I kept thinking to myself why all the fuss on geography? Based on your post, I think I now understand. Thanks again brother.
&quot;In Christ&quot;,
Bobby


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## fredtgreco (May 14, 2004)

[quote:c9d5550cc5][i:c9d5550cc5]Originally posted by Preach[/i:c9d5550cc5]
Fred,
Thanks for the thoughts. I think I have a better understanding now. I can appreciate the focus on preaching. Just a few minutes ago I finsihed viewing the dvd that I received from Greenville. The focus througout (at least it was my impression) was on preaching and geography. They kept emphasizing the Word of God proclaimed and exegeted from the original languages, as well as the beauty of the state of South Carolina. I kept thinking to myself why all the fuss on geography? Based on your post, I think I now understand. Thanks again brother.
&quot;In Christ&quot;,
Bobby [/quote:c9d5550cc5]

Glad I could help.


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## cupotea (May 15, 2004)

[quote:11d8270a33]as well as the beauty of the state of South Carolina.[/quote:11d8270a33]

Well, they certainly have this right! :thumbup:


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