# God working IN you through events



## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

I am exploring this theme:

God blesses other people THROUGH us - yes. But also, God blesses US during these efforts to bless others. Sometimes it is not the outward result that seems to be God's purposes at all, but God's work and results WITHIN us as we strive to do some ministry, some good deed, etc. 

Does anyone have thoughts, quotes, sermons, Scriptures which speak on this theme? It is connected to the theme of God sanctifying us through our trials, but not quite the same.

Missionaries want God to work through them to bless the Nations widely. Sometimes God works IN them as they labor...and blesses the missionary, instead, deeply. 

The result of the labor, therefore, is not always merely "out there" (picture a map of the world) and among others, but the minister also is blessed and grows and becomes more effective due to the work "in here" (pointing to the heart) among themselves.

Any thoughts?


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## johnny (Aug 18, 2015)

Your post reminds me of Doctor Livingstone's work in Africa.

"Note to self" I must revisit The Puritan Hope. Been a while since I read it.


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

It sounds mystical. Providentially God uses the Devil. That is no rule to us.

Why do missionaries want God to work through them to bless the nations widely? What if they were called to sow and another was called to reap? What if they were called to be the last witness to a people before the Lord sent judgment? The missionary's business is to obey the One who sent him regardless of the consequences. We hope the best for the people we work amongst, and we pray and labour and sacrifice for their eternal well-being, but we cannot allow ourselves to be manipulated by the hope of certain preconceived outcomes. Faithfulness is success in this line of work.


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

Can you explain how this is "mystical?"

The theme of God refining his servants like gold in a refiner's fire and burning out the dross through hard experiences is a theme we sometimes we in Scripture and Christian writing. I don't see how the theme in the OP is any more mystical than that (God developing and blessing the leader within through the work He has given him to do).

Why wouldn't missionaries want God to bless the nations widely through them? Don't we pray for the salvation of souls through our preaching? It is an unfit man, indeed, who preaches with indifference and says, "I don't really care if anyone is saved by my preaching...after all, I am just doing my duty." We obey, yes, but we obey hoping for blessings upon those labors. We are content to serve God even without visible results, but we are hoping and praying for signs of success. 

I am not all too sure what you are reacting against.


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Why wouldn't missionaries want God to bless the nations widely through them? Don't we pray for the salvation of souls through our preaching? It is an unfit man, indeed, who preaches with indifference and says, "I don't really care if anyone is saved by my preaching...after all, I am just doing my duty."



In one paragraph you have jumped from "nations widely" to "anyone." It is quite a leap.

Yes, God uses the hardships of ministerial work to refine the "faithful" minister, especially to help him to see what is most important in ministry, and that visions of grandeur are a hindrance rather than a help. Every individual soul is precious. One soul, "anyone," is the object of ministerial labour and care.


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

I am trying to figure out why you are reacting. It seems to be the phrase, "The nations"...instead of merely "any soul..." 

I hardly see how the OP merits such a reaction. But, here is an explanation anyway: (1) The theme was in the context of missionary labors, a devotional for those who are missionaries. (2), According to Matthew 28, the Great Commission has its arena/scope as panta ta ethne, all the nations, thus the use of the phrase "bless the nations" instead of "bless any soul anywhere" was written to reflect this missionary context. Our hope is to see the whole world blessed by the Gospel even if the labor to which we are specifically called may be more specific. (2) Missionaries often want to bless peoples far away. This does not mean that they don't want to bless people up close or that they disparage the reaching of "any soul." Missionaries are usually commissioned by their churches and sent out by them specifically to a country deemed "unreached" that is often far away...thus, that is the reason for the literary contrast between "blessing the nations" widely or far away versus being blessed one's self in one's heart deeply and being sanctified through these labors. (3) To try to accomplish this calling that the missionary receives upon his commission is not a "vision of grandeur" but is staying true to one's calling if they are sent out by their church to "reach" a certain people. No church commissions and sends their missionary with the words, "We don't expect you to have any success at actually seeing souls saved, but you just go out and do your duty..." There is a hope of more "success" merely than the success of spreading the Word (without any souls being saved). Either explicit or implicit in the words most sending churches use when they send out missionaries is some sort of expressed hope that souls will be saved through their efforts. 

It is no "vision of grandeur" to hear of a remote and unreached people or tribe without the Gospel and long to go to them. (4) It also appears you have put "faithful" in quotations and want to make a point of distinguishing the success of seeing souls saved versus the success of being faithful. I am not sure how this is close to the main theme of the OP or how I have ever asserted the contrary. To hope for souls saved is not to deny this. 

Again, the desire is to gather thoughts, quotes, sermons, about how God blesses and sanctifies his servants in the midst of their labors. While they are trying to bless others and our focused outward, God is blessing them as well inwardly as they labor. Your phrase sums it up well, God uses the hardships of ministerial work to refine the faithful minister...


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Again, the desire is to gather thoughts, quotes, sermons, about how God blesses and sanctifies his servants in the midst of their labors. While they are trying to bless others and our focused outward, God is blessing them as well inwardly as they labor.



The orientation appears to me to be moving in the wrong direction. You have them "trying" to bless others; if they are faithful to God Scripture teaches they are a blessing -- beautiful feet; a sweet savour of Christ. There is no point looking at them as men see them. What are they in the sight of God? You also have them "being blessed" as they labour. Whereas the Master Himself says it is enough for the servant to be as his lord. The sheer privilege of being a servant of such a Master satisfies intensely. And if that labour entails being rejected and despised by men, and being cast out of society, and being despitefully treated, and even being put to death, it is blessed labour. Freely we have received; freely we give. We do not give to receive a blessing, but because we have already been blessed in every way.


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## timfost (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> I am exploring this theme:
> 
> God blesses other people THROUGH us - yes. But also, God blesses US during these efforts to bless others. Sometimes it is not the outward result that seems to be God's purposes at all, but God's work and results WITHIN us as we strive to do some ministry, some good deed, etc.
> 
> ...



Jonah


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

MW said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Again, the desire is to gather thoughts, quotes, sermons, about how God blesses and sanctifies his servants in the midst of their labors. While they are trying to bless others and our focused outward, God is blessing them as well inwardly as they labor.
> ...



Okay. I see your point. I agree....mostly. 

However, God does sanctify us as we serve. We learn lessons. We are reminded of God's grace. He sanctifies and matures us through trials. We do not give to receive a blessing, yet we do receive a blessing as we give.


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



Then the references in the OP to "effort" and "striving" need to be reoriented. Let the work be valued for what it is in the sight of God, otherwise it is not genuine service to Him. There is an incredible difference between serving God and serving self of God. Any sanctification which takes place in the process of serving self is not "true holiness."


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

I am still not sure I follow.

What is wrong with striving and working hard to take the Gospel to others. Doing hard labors in an attempt to bless others? 

William Carey said:



> "We are firmly persuaded that Paul might plant and Apollos water, in vain, in any part of the world, did not God give the increase. We are sure that only those ordained to eternal life will believe, and that God alone can add to the church such as shall be saved. Nevertheless we cannot but observe with admiration that Paul, the great champion for the glorious doctrine of free and sovereign grace, was the most conspicuous for his personal zeal in the word of persuading men to be reconciled to God. In this respect he is a noble example for our imitation. Our Lord intimated to those of His apostles who were fishermen, that he would make them fishers of men, intimating that in all weathers, and amidst every disappointment they were to aim at drawing men to the shores of eternal life. Solomon says: "He that winneth souls is wise," implying, no doubt, that the work of gaining over men to the side of God, was to be done by winning methods, and that it required the greatest wisdom to do it with success."


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> What is wrong with striving and working hard to take the Gospel to others.



Nothing. It is so valuable that it should be done for its own sake, not for by-ends.


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## timfost (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> What is wrong with striving and working hard to take the Gospel to others. Doing hard labors in an attempt to bless others?



Nothing.



> Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), *that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles*. (Rom 1:13)





> *Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved*. (Rom. 10:1)


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

?

Yes, it is glorious to preach the Gospel whatever the results. But who here does not hope for fruit? 

If preaching with a hope to save and not merely at the pleasure of doing one's duty is worthy of guilt, then the Apostle Paul is most guilty:



> Romans 1:13
> I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) *in order that I might have a harvest among you*, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.





> I Cor. 9:22
> To the weak became I as weak, *that I might gain the weak*: I am made all things to all men, *that I might by all means save some*.






> “For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, *so that I may win more*”





> II Cor. 5:20:
> Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



It was clear the Paul hoped for souls and worked hard to preach the Gospel and strove and labored to be a good fisherman.


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> It was clear the Paul hoped for souls and worked hard to preach the Gospel and strove and labored to be a good fisherman.



If your use of the word "good" is being made to depend on the instrinsic value of the work, then I agree. Paul laboured for souls. That is what is good. That is what made him a good workman and a faithful servant. But then you keep coming back to the consequences of this labour as if the commendation of a good servant rests in what he has effected by his labour. Whereas the apostle clearly entrusted the effects of his labour to the Lord whose he was and whom he served.


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## timfost (Aug 18, 2015)

MW said:


> But then you keep coming back to the consequences of this labour as if the commendation of a good servant rests in what he has effected by his labour. Whereas the apostle clearly entrusted the effects of his labour to the Lord whose he was and whom he served.



This is simply not fair. Perg denied what you assert in the OP:



> God blesses other people THROUGH us - yes.



Perg is speaking about instrumental means, correct? Let's not impute to a brother something false so that we have an argument. I hope that we can demonstrate a heart of charity.


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

timfost said:


> This is simply not fair. Perg denied what you assert in the OP:
> 
> 
> 
> > God blesses other people THROUGH us - yes.



The words you have quoted are very mystical. The fact is that God turns everything into a blessing for His elect. For our part, we are to seek God in the use of the instituted means He has provided for us.


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## timfost (Aug 18, 2015)

MW said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> > This is simply not fair. Perg denied what you assert in the OP:
> ...



Perg's words are completely consistent with WCF 21:4 and the third petition of the Lord's prayer. If we see God's blessings simply in terms of His decrees, all we can pray is "work or Your decree as You have purposed."


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

MW said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> > This is simply not fair. Perg denied what you assert in the OP:
> ...



Those instituted means include the preaching of the Word by missionaries sent out by the Church (in accordance with Matthew 28). Thus, missionaries and preachers become agents and channels of God's blessings. Thus, God blesses other people through us. I still fail to see how this is mystical. 

Am I missing something?


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2015)

Maybe I am phrasing something poorly when I could phrase it better?


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## MW (Aug 18, 2015)

timfost said:


> Perg's words are completely consistent with WCF 21:4 and the third petition of the Lord's prayer. If we see God's blessings simply in terms of His decrees, all we can pray is "work or Your decree as You have purposed."



What are you talking about? What I have said insists on discerning the will of God as He has revealed it in His Word.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Thus, missionaries and preachers become agents and channels of God's blessings. Thus, God blesses other people through us. I still fail to see how this is mystical.
> 
> Am I missing something?



God blesses the means. We are not the means, are we? We are stewards of the means. In 1st Corinthians the true minister renounces any claims to being held in special regard.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Maybe I am phrasing something poorly when I could phrase it better?



I think it could be phrased better. We need to get away from this sacerdotal idea that mere men are channels of blessing to others.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

The instrumental means is the Word, preached by those God calls. I am not sure, again, why you are reacting. God chooses people for special tasks, such as bearing the Word to others.

Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.." Was this phrasing about the Apsotle Paul being a chosen vessel amiss?

Paul also says (Ephesians 3:7,8), "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace…" I am not sure what you mean by "special regard" but the NT clearly speaks of God giving certain graces to certain people for certain tasks. In that sense, God holds them in a special regard. God calls some as ministers, etc....is that a special grace or not?

Jeremiah was especially called (1:5): “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Don't we preach so that souls will be saved as well as to glorify God? Don't we seek to see the conversion of the lost as one of our goals?


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

MW said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I am phrasing something poorly when I could phrase it better?
> ...



So this is your reason for your reaction? The root?


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

Does God bless His church due to the prayers and preaching of Her ministers? If so, is this sacerdotal? If the elders gather and pray for the sick, is it okay to speak of them as instruments of blessing for that sick person if the patient recovers? It does not appear to be stealing glory from God to acknowledge the instruments or the vessels, does it?

The Westminster Directory of Publick Worship, in the section "Of the Preaching of the Word" begins by showing the role of the minister in administering the Word, 

"PREACHING of the word, being the power of God unto salvation, and one of the greatest and most excellent works belonging to the ministry of the gospel, should be so performed, that the workman need not be ashamed, but may save himself, and those that hear him."

If the Westminster Divines were really so concerned with the emphases you possess, why the "sloppy" language which speaks of ministers being workmen who would "save himself, and those that hear him"? Didn't they know that the minister does no such thing? He "saves" nobody...the Spirit through the Word does that. Should we edit and correct this section of the directory?

---
I admit the assertion that ministers cannot be the instruments of blessing to other men is a new one to me. I will have to examine what you have said. 

I believe that men can be the means of blessing others and that every minister and missionary ought to strive to be just such a means of blessing others as he delivers God's Word to the lost. I have never considered myself a "sacerdotalist" for this view.

What is more, the Apostle Paul seemed to recognize that his role was to be a chosen instrument to bless the Gentiles and he delights in this special calling, even while giving all glory to God: 

2 Cor. 5:20


> For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


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## timfost (Aug 19, 2015)

MW said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I am phrasing something poorly when I could phrase it better?
> ...



The sacerdotal system acts as the middle man. Without him, there is no salvation. The preacher of the gospel knows full well that if God purposes to save someone, it will be in spite of him, though God may use him.

Is the doctrine of justification THROUGH faith also mystical?


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

How does Romans 10 factor into this discussion about instrumental means by which God uses to save a soul?



> For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
> 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



This passage appears to include the (a). vessels/instruments/messengers who are delivering the (b) Word, as well as the (c) sending church of the preacher all as instruments leading up to someone confessing with their mouth the Lord Jesus unto salvation. No doubt the Apostle Paul who penned this knew that God sovereignly saves and blesses. Yet, He uses means.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> I am not sure, again, why you are reacting.



I think you know. Some of your comments indicate that you at least have an inkling. "Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours. Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." Making ministers something more than they are might be wise to the men of this world, but it is foolishness to God.

The servant brings the bread to the child, but it is the bread which nourishes the child.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

> The servant brings the bread to the child, but it is the bread which nourishes the child.



If that is your assertion, I most heartily agree and have never differed. 

I am not sure about your accusation (and it does seem to be an accusation) that I am making too much of ministers. Am I "making ministers something more than they are" if I assert that God has especially called and gifted them as distinct from other Christians? They are given a weighty task, and the qualification are high. 

In Ephesians 4, is Paul speaking of pastors and teachers when he speaks of "gifts" given to the Church?

While it is paramount for us to realize we are servants all and owe all to grace, the NT also speaks of God's ministers as being set apart by calling and gifting and even being gifts (as per Eph 4) to the church for her blessing. Does this make me "Sacerdotal" in some fashion?

Do I err if I assert the following statement: "Pastors are gifts of God to His church."


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

Here is a quote by Abraham Kuyper which speaks to the role of these instrumental means in salvation, including the preaching of the Word by His preachers:



> The Work of the Holy Spirit — Abraham Kuyper
> 
> "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." -- 1 Peter i.23.
> 
> ...


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Am I "making ministers something more than they are" if I assert that God has especially called and gifted them as distinct from other Christians?



Is that ALL you have said? No, it is not. You have said other things and those things make ministers something more than ministers. Ministers are not channels of blessing. God does not bless people THROUGH ministers any more than He blesses them THROUGH any other means. That blessing which ministers distinctively bring to their fellow men is not their own but God's, and God gives this blessing to whomsoever He pleases. It does not flow through the channel of fallen human agency.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

timfost said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



It is not IN SPITE of the minister. The minister is used to bring the Word. It is the minister's privilege to do so, and Christ will even commend him for being a good and faithful servant when He bids him to enter into His joy. But it is BY MEANS of the Word, which sets forth the blessing of God in Christ, that God saves those for whom Christ has given Himself.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

timfost said:


> Is the doctrine of justification THROUGH faith also mystical?



Are you now making a parallel between ministers and faith? Maybe you should think before you write.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

MW said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Am I "making ministers something more than they are" if I assert that God has especially called and gifted them as distinct from other Christians?
> ...



You wrote:


> God does not bless people THROUGH ministers any more than He blesses them THROUGH any other means.



Does God then not regenerate folks through the instrumental means of the Word of God?



Nobody here is trying to make instrumental means into anything other than instrumental means. Nobody here has said that the blessing ministers give is their own.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

Does God bless people THROUGH any instrumental means?

Below is a section I wrote to a Primitive Baptist two years ago:



> *The instrumentality of the Word of God:*
> 
> The truth is that God ordains that the Elect should ordinarily be saved through faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel:
> 
> ...


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## timfost (Aug 19, 2015)

Rev. Winzer,

Please prayerfully consider Titus 3:9-11, Gal. 5:22-24, 1 Cor. 13:4-7.

With concern,


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

timfost said:


> Rev. Winzer,
> 
> Please prayerfully consider Titus 3:9-11, Gal. 5:22-24, 1 Cor. 13:4-7.
> 
> With concern,



Prayerfully considered, Tim. Sorry, but I cannot extend charity to your errors, though I will continue to show charity to you as I oppose your errors, in hope that you will come to acknowledge the truth by God's grace.

I am sorry that you consider me uncharitable because I tell you the truth. Perhaps you could think more charitably of one who is only trying to benefit you.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> Does God then not regenerate folks through the instrumental means of the Word of God?



Why, when you set out to prove your view that ministers are channels of grace, do you appeal to what God does through the Word? The minister is not the Word of God. The minister is not the means of grace. He is the minister of the Word of God. He is the servant of the means of grace. Surely you can see this difference.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

To prove God uses instrumental means.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> To prove God uses instrumental means.



The Word is to be received for the authority of God speaking in it; the minister is to be first proved and then received only insofar as he preaches the Word. Surely, then, the minister cannot be regarded as being the same as the Word.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

I never said the minister was the same as the Word. You seemed to claim that God didn't need means, so I showed you an example of God using means, the instrumental means of the Word.

This reminds me of a post last year where I spoke of Christians "ministering" to one another, and you asserted the point that Christians don't "minister" but only Ministers do. I suppose you wanted to safeguard the term "ministry" - but most Christians have used such terms more loosely as a way to say "serve others."

I see nothing suspect with the phrasing that, "God blesses people through His servants." I've even heard Reformed people say things like, "God used the preacher to convict me..." when technically God used the preached Word that the preacher delivered to convict them.


I am saying nothing else that most others on the PB would say. Here is Matthew MacMahon's summary of preaching found here: http://www.apuritansmind.com/pastors-study/the-pastor-and-the-pulpit-parts-1-and-2-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/ 



> The ultimate end of this worship is to glorify God. As with all things, preaching is seen as that which ought to glorify God, yet specifically as God’s special means of revealing himself through the Bible. Romans 10:14Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) makes this apparent, “How shall they call on him whom they have not believed?” The answer is through hearing the Word of God in the act of preaching; “…And how shall they hear without a preacher?” Sinners are commonly converted by means of the preached Word. In the act of worship, the preacher gains worshippers for the Father. He is used as the instrumental means whereby the Spirit of God will effectuate the instrumental cause of conversion in the soul of the hearer—the preached Word , the Word of truth.




As far as I can tell, you have two contentions with what I am saying: 
(1) First, you claim that I "make too much of preachers." And I responded by stating that, while all they have is due to grace, that God does speak of ministers as especially called and even as gifts to the church in Eph 4. Do you agree with that? (2) Second, you seem to indicate that there is something errant in the phrase that "God blesses others through them" or that Christians may be a "channel of blessing" to others. Somehow this reeks of sacerdotalism. Yet, it is common to hear Christians speak of people blessing them or being a blessing to them or of ministers being vessels or channels by which God blesses others.


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## timfost (Aug 19, 2015)

Exactly! WCF 5:3 says:



> God, in his *ordinary providence*, *maketh use of means*, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.



Unless we are ready to make the argument that preachers work outside of God's providence, the preacher is a *means* used by God to work out His providence. Of course God uses the Word, which is also a _*means*_. 

The fact that there was ever an issue made out of this wording in the first place is beyond my comprehension. It is reformed, confessional and biblical.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

timfost said:


> Exactly! WCF 5:3 says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tim, 

Maybe he is guarding against the danger of putting the preacher on the same level as the means of grace, such as the preaching of the Word. The catechism speaks of the "preaching of the Word" as a means of grace but not the "preachER of the Word" being a means of grace. Many people speak of preachers being "instruments" or "vessels of grace" through which God pours out his blessings (or, as Matthew MacMahon said in the article I linked, preachers are an "instrumental means" of salvation...he said it, not me). But MW seems to indicate that this is "sacerdotal" in some way. 

I am trying to understand his point and still cannot see why my language is errant. Last year, I remember him taking me to task because I spoke loosely of the "ministry" my wife had towards tribal women (meaning that she was able to serve them), and perhaps he wanted to safeguard a stricter use of the word "ministry" on that occasion just as he wants to safeguard a stricter use of the word "means" in this regard? I am not sure. But I do know that even in Reformed writings, we don't see every writer using every word in its most precise and strictest definition possible at all times.


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## timfost (Aug 19, 2015)

Sure, the only thing I was trying to point out in the above is that God uses means, as understood in the WCF, to refer to more than just the preaching and the sacraments. Certainly, we should not elevate the preacher to the same level as the preaching and sacraments, but at the same time we understand him as a means, one that Paul often speaks about (Rom 11:14).

If clarity was needed, it should have been in the form of a question, not an accusation.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2015)

Yes.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> You seemed to claim that God didn't need means



God doesn't "need" means, but He sovereignly uses them. If you are suggesting I claim God doesn't "use" means, there is nothing in what I have written to bring you to this conclusion.



Pergamum said:


> Yet, it is common to hear Christians speak of people blessing them or being a blessing to them or of ministers being vessels or channels by which God blesses others.



And that is the kind of idea which is sacerdotal and needs to be corrected. Thinking this way exalts men and sets up the kind of divisions we find in Corinth. The Letters to the Corinthians are directly aimed at breaking down this kind of thinking.


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## MW (Aug 19, 2015)

Pergamum said:


> This reminds me of a post last year where I spoke of Christians "ministering" to one another, and you asserted the point that Christians don't "minister" but only Ministers do. I suppose you wanted to safeguard the term "ministry" - but most Christians have used such terms more loosely as a way to say "serve others."



Are you sure you have this right? I teach "ministry" is used in different senses and that we must be sure of the sense in which the Scripture uses the term and apply it accordingly. I would not say Christians do not serve or minister in any capacity.

You are very poor at presenting what I say. I make distinctions which you do not appear to recognise.


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