# Did I just walk into MASS?



## irresistible_grace (Nov 12, 2011)

Tried to find a Reformed church here in town to worship at *BUT* when I walked in it felt like I was worshipping with my Roman Catholic family members up north.... Candles, Robes, Liturgical Colors, Organ, Chior, Stained Glass, Meditation, lots of Recitation, etc. 
This church subscribes to the SAME Confessions as I do
This church would say it adheres to the RPW as do I

Did I just walk into MASS?
Why is the Reformed Community so ...  ... all over the board?


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## Philip (Nov 12, 2011)

irresistible_grace said:


> Why is the Reformed Community so ... ... all over the board?



Because it's been that way for a while. A broad interpretation of the regulative principle and a narrow interpretation of the normative principle (Anglican/Lutheran) may look very similar. The description given above sounds like it could fit a lot of the Reformed bodies around here in Chattanooga (minus the candles and liturgical colors---that's probably going a little overboard). I think what you're running up against is the question of what are the elements of worship and what are the circumstances? I grew up in a Presbyterian Church that stressed the RPW, but I have since discovered that about a third of the weekly order of service was lifted directly from the Book of Common Prayer. Is this good or problematic? I suppose that depends on your answer to the question I just posed.


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## Romans922 (Nov 12, 2011)

Sounds Anglican


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## Rufus (Nov 12, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Sounds Anglican


Possibly High-Church Anglican as well.


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## irresistible_grace (Nov 12, 2011)

It's an ARP!

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

I thought it was Associate Reformed Presbyterian ... I guess the "A" should be Anglican instead!
Not MASS ... just not the Reformed Presbyterian I'm looking for. 
I love the RPCNA where I worship (wish it wasn't 40+ minutes each way)!


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 12, 2011)

I was going to say "sounds like ARP". The newer directory(ies?) for worship mention seasonal colors (i.e. so called Christian calendar seasons) if I"m not mistaken.


irresistible_grace said:


> It's an ARP!


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## jogri17 (Nov 12, 2011)

There are some Federal vision Congregations that practice it. I've heard about it happening, though I've never seen it. I would ask them what they think about Peter Lighthart and Doug Wilson. That is generally a good litmus test!


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## Rufus (Nov 12, 2011)

irresistible_grace said:


> It's an ARP!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------
> 
> ...



I find that unfortunate, they mine as well have joined any of the conservative Reformed Anglican churches that exist which have many good Christian brothers and faithful ministers in them rather than compromising Presbyterian distinctives.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't think bad worship practices are exclusive to FV embracing 'Presbyterians'.


jogri17 said:


> There are some Federal vision Congregations that practice it. I've heard about it happening, though I've never seen it. I would ask them what they think about Peter Lighthart and Doug Wilson. That is generally a good litmus test!


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## irresistible_grace (Nov 12, 2011)

They are not FV ... my husband and I have spoken directly with the Pastor. We left an OPC because of concerns about several people within the congregation who are Federal Vision[ist] (lovers of DW and PL). 



jogri17 said:


> There are some Federal vision Congregations that practice it. I've heard about it happening, though I've never seen it. I would ask them what they think about Peter Lighthart and Doug Wilson. That is generally a good litmus test!


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## Unoriginalname (Nov 12, 2011)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I don't think bad worship practices are exclusive to FV embracing 'Presbyterians'.
> 
> 
> jogri17 said:
> ...



What is the motivation then for invention in worship?


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## Scottish Lass (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, that's a common issue in the ARP, unfortunately. When Tim began changing a few things here, citing the RPW, etc., the response was, "But we've seen it at other ARP churches. Why isn't it okay?" 

We even asked during the interview if they followed the church calendar, used liturgical colors, etc. They said no, but when we walked into the sanctuary later, it was clear they didn't understand the question. He's managed to remove the colors, but we're stuck with an organ and choir for now, plus the stained glass, etc. that all preceded him. So if you only looked at those things, you'd be horrified, too. But the worship service is pretty Reformed.

Oh, and I don't know of any FV-leaning church in the ARP.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 12, 2011)

Not grasping or simply rejecting biblical rules for the worship of God. That's not exclusive to FV. Sproul Sr. is not FV yet suffers from the malady of smells and bells.


Unoriginalname said:


> What is the motivation then for invention in worship?


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## Wayne (Nov 12, 2011)

One way of minimizing the visual effect of a choir is to move it to the back of the room. 
It actually helps to "lift" the congregation in its singing, with the added plus that it isn't in view.

If the building has a balcony or loft type seating area, that's a great place to then put the choir.

Try it some time.


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## jogri17 (Nov 12, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> Oh, and I don't know of any FV-leaning church in the ARP.


 I do. I have had conversations with them.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 12, 2011)

jogri17 said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and I don't know of any FV-leaning church in the ARP.
> ...



I would be interested in learning who they may be, PM me.


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## Edward (Nov 12, 2011)

Wayne said:


> If the building has a balcony or loft type seating area, that's a great place to then put the choir.



If you don't end up having to seat congregants in the Choir loft.


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## Scottish Lass (Nov 12, 2011)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> jogri17 said:
> 
> 
> > Scottish Lass said:
> ...



I guarantee my husband (Marrow Man) would also like to be informed. That's not taken lightly, especially in our presbytery.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 12, 2011)

jogri17 said:


> Scottish Lass said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and I don't know of any FV-leaning church in the ARP.
> ...



That's a pretty serious charge, especially since our Synod is on record as denouncing the FV (and NPP). I, for one, would love to know who these churches are.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 12, 2011)

irresistible_grace said:


> Tried to find a Reformed church here in town to worship at BUT when I walked in it felt like I was worshipping with my Roman Catholic family members up north.... Candles, Robes, Liturgical Colors, Organ, Chior, Stained Glass, Meditation, lots of Recitation, etc.
> This church subscribes to the SAME Confessions as I do
> This church would say it adheres to the RPW as do I
> 
> ...



Jess, forgive me, but you are coming out of an RPCNA background. Very few NAPARC churches are going to look exactly like that. I agree that this sounds bad on the surface, but I'd like a little more clarification. For instance, what kind of robes are we talking about? Choir robes, Genevan gowns, or liturgical robes worn by the pastor? What exactly did the stained glass window look like? For instance, if it was just "colors" and not images (like images of Christ), it may not be a violation of the RPW. Plenty of reformed churches have organs, and that certainly doesn't make it Roman Catholic. What do you mean by meditation? For example, do you mean something other than what is spoken of in Psalm 77 and 119? And could you explain what you mean by recitations? Some Reformed churches recite the Lord's Prayer (we do).

I'm not trying to defend this church and I'm not saying you are wrong; I would just like to have a little bit more clarification.


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## Philip (Nov 12, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> And could you explain what you mean by recitations? Some Reformed churches recite the Lord's Prayer (we do).



Not to mention that some (including my current church on Lookout Mountain) have been known to use the Westminster Standards or the creeds.


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## Zach (Nov 12, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > And could you explain what you mean by recitations? Some Reformed churches recite the Lord's Prayer (we do).
> ...



The OPC Church I have been attending confesses our Reformed faith from the Standards corporately during the evening service.


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## Romans922 (Nov 12, 2011)

How sad to recite the Standards during worship. I don't believe the divines intended it for that use, but for Scripture to be used.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree with Tim. 

I have to say that I'm not that familiar with the ARP, but all of these things wouldn't be out of place in many PCA churches. One in my area has liturgical colors and has an advent wreath and candles during that season. It's too small to have a choir or else it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were to have one if they could. Most of their musical accompaniment is with an acoustic guitar. They only sing hymns and the pastor told me he's never sung a Psalm. Whereas the next closest one (pastored by a GPTS grad) has no choir, no colors but they do have a small organ. They usually sing at least one Psalm from the red Trinity Hymnal.

I have never been to any PCA or OPC church that didn't recite one of the creeds (almost always the Apostle's Creed) and recite the Lord's Prayer.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 12, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> How sad to recite the Standards during worship. I don't believe the divines intended it for that use, but for Scripture to be used.



We regularly read either the Ten Commandments responsively (during the Lord's Supper services) or a question and answer from the Larger or Shorter Catechism responsively as a confession of what we believe (with me explaining that particular point of doctrine before we read it). I'm sorry if you think that is sad, but it would seem to me that the Westminster Standards would be more appropriate than, say, the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed, since the former is actually formally/officially/explicitly the standards of my denomination, and not the latter. But, then, again, I don't pretend the know the thoughts of the divines on every jot and tittle.


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## Marrow Man (Nov 14, 2011)

Neither of my two questions/concerns above have been answer. I would like 1) a clarification of the RPW issues in this church and 2) the name of the church(es) in my denomination which allegedly hold to FV theology. In the first case, a comparison was made to the RC Mass; in the second, the accusation of a deviant and rejected theology was put forth. I think both of these accusations are serious enough that there needs to be further information given, even if it is in private.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 14, 2011)




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## Marrow Man (Nov 14, 2011)

The Missus informed me that Jess is very pregnant and might be indisposed for the near future. However, I would definitely like clarification on the latter (FV) point.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 14, 2011)

Rev. Andrew Webb refers to "Episcoterian" Churches. It sounds like the church in the OP meets that definition. To borrow a phrase from the famed philosopher Forrest Gump: The PCA (and ARP) is like a box of chocolates. You just don't know what you're gonna get. I've only been to a couple of congregations but apparently that's the case to a much lesser extent in the OPC, although I've heard of anomalies here and there. 

If they have an altar and get into adoration or worship of the sacrament, praying to Mary and etc. then it's time to seriously question whether you're at mass. (I'm thinking the question in the OP was intended to be somewhat hyperbolic, but just being on the safe side here, especially for the sake of any lurkers.) A church that rejects the RPW in doctrine or practice could well be said to be moving toward Rome in that sense. But there's a big gap in between. 

Was J.C. Ryle a papist? Certainly not! Few men were as opposed to Rome as was he. But I'm sure his brand of low church Anglicanism would likely have included some elements that would look rather "Romish" to most of us on this board who are familiar with hymn singing NAPARC churches, not to mention unaccompanied EP advocates.

I would be interested to know the nature of the *meditation* that was noted in the OP. Hopefully it wasn't Romish contemplative prayer or related practices, (think Richard Foster et. al.) which are said to be infiltrating evangelical churches of all kinds.


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## Philip (Nov 14, 2011)

While I was in Britain in the last year, I regularly attended a traditional low-church CofE congregation, and it wasn't too different from what I was used to. A narrow interpretation of the normative principle and a broad interpretation of the regulative principle can look very similar---and that's not necessarily bad, In my humble opinion.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------




Pilgrim said:


> I would be interested to know the nature of the meditation that was noted in the OP. Hopefully it wasn't Romish contemplative prayer or related practices, (think Richard Foster et. al.) which are said to be infiltrating evangelical churches of all kinds.



Most likely this would be about 30 seconds to a minute of silence or organ/piano prelude before the call to worship---that's the way I've seen the term used in worship most places.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 14, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> While I was in Britain in the last year, I regularly attended a traditional low-church CofE congregation, and it wasn't too different from what I was used to. A narrow interpretation of the normative principle and a broad interpretation of the regulative principle can look very similar---and that's not necessarily bad, In my humble opinion.



I've never been to one, but apparently low church was the order of the day in the Reformed Episcopal Church prior to the recent influence of Anglo-Catholicism. The Sydney Anglicans are quite evangelical and low church from what I understand.

Did the church have an altar? What other differences (however slight) were there compared to an average PCA (whatever that is) service? Clerical garb would be one, although you have some PCA ministers wearing collars now. Pictures of Christ? Was the rector referred to as "Father?" 

I've never been to any kind of Anglican service. The only thing I have to compare is the relatively high church Methodist congregation of my youth. (Or so I guess, at least compared to the frontier circuit riding days.) But what separated that (on a superficial/architectural level, without regard to doctrine) from some larger PCA churches was probably the altar. There was a corporate confession of sin, a recitation of a creed, choral pieces, etc. Even after solo or choral pieces, etc. no one ever clapped, (at least not 99% of the time) which I think is a significant influence on me to this day with regard to a bent toward "decent and in order," a disdain for happy clappy fluff, etc. They sang all the old Wesley hymns, among others, although I don't know how many believed what they were singing. I didn't at the time.


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## Philip (Nov 14, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> Did the church have an altar?



Yes.



Pilgrim said:


> What other differences (however slight) were there compared to an average PCA (whatever that is) service? Clerical garb would be one, although you have some PCA ministers wearing collars now. Pictures of Christ? Was the rector referred to as "Father?"



The vicar wore a clerical collar but was not referred to as "father," but usually by his first name. I don't recall any images, apart from Christian symbols/shorthands, all of which I have seen in PCA churches (the Chi-Rho, etc). Communion was the only place where I noticed a huge difference: wafers and the common sup were used, and the congregants kneeled (other than the ones assisting the vicar).

Other than that, there wasn't much that I haven't seen in the PCA: creeds, corporate confession of sin, etc. I've even heard some PCA ministers use Cranmer's collects, though usually as the end of a longer prayer of invocation (by the way, the collects, and the BCP in general, make excellent devotional material).


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## sastark (Nov 15, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> The Missus informed me that Jess is very pregnant and might be indisposed for the near future. However, I would definitely like clarification on the latter (FV) point.



As an elder in the ARP, I would also like "clarification" on the supposed Federal Vision teaching ARP church that was referenced above.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 15, 2011)

P. F. Pugh said:


> While I was in Britain in the last year, I regularly attended a traditional low-church CofE congregation, and it wasn't too different from what I was used to. A narrow interpretation of the normative principle and a broad interpretation of the regulative principle can look very similar---and that's not necessarily bad, In my humble opinion.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------
> 
> ...



Hopefully that is the case. I've been to at least a couple of NAPARC churches that did this, one of which I once a member. I don't remember if it said "meditation," moment of silence or something else in the bulletin. It was also about 30 seconds. I always thought that was not long enough.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 15, 2011)

irresistible_grace said:


> Tried to find a Reformed church here in town to worship at *BUT* when I walked in it felt like I was worshipping with my Roman Catholic family members up north.... Candles, Robes, Liturgical Colors, Organ, Chior, Stained Glass, Meditation, lots of Recitation, etc.
> This church subscribes to the SAME Confessions as I do
> This church would say it adheres to the RPW as do I
> 
> ...




Hmmm. I like the organ, don't mind an unubtrusive choir, and quite like stained glass (so long as there are no 2nd commandment violations). It depends on what you mean by "meditation." 

Recitation is common in our PCA church - either the Apostle's creed, the Psalms, or something from the Westminster or less-frequently Heidleberg Catechism. 

No candles, robes, or liturgical colours, though.


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## Philip (Nov 15, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> Recitation is common in our PCA church - either the Apostle's creed, the Psalms, or something from the Westminster or less-frequently Heidleberg Catechism.



All of these (except the Heidelberg) are included in the appendices of the Trinity Hymnal as useful for worship. The TH is the official hymnal of the OPC and the PCA.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 15, 2011)

I've attended at least one PCA congregations that has responsive Scripture readings, such as those contained in the ESV pew Bible.


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## J. Dean (Nov 17, 2011)

irresistible_grace said:


> Tried to find a Reformed church here in town to worship at *BUT* when I walked in it felt like I was worshipping with my Roman Catholic family members up north.... Candles, Robes, Liturgical Colors, Organ, Chior, Stained Glass, Meditation, lots of Recitation, etc.
> This church subscribes to the SAME Confessions as I do
> This church would say it adheres to the RPW as do I
> 
> ...


Hey now! I LIKE stained glass!!!

Seriously though, I guess I'd have to see the service myself, because those things you named in and of themselves are not necessarily solely the substance of the mass.


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## wsmeathers (Nov 17, 2011)

Why are choirs, stain glass, candles, and scents not appropriate during worship? I understand that we can worhip without them, but what is the objection to them?


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 17, 2011)

Welcome to the PB; please fix your signature. See the link in mine for how. Thanks!


wsmeathers said:


> Why are choirs, stain glass, candles, and scents not appropriate during worship? I understand that we can worhip without them, but what is the objection to them?


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## JennyG (Nov 17, 2011)

I have to put in a word for the use of choir and organ in worship (naturally, since I'm an organist myself with a choir).
There truly is NO reason why they should be seen as necessarily "high church"; it's just as they're used. For myself I don't know of any more suitable and beautiful accompaniment for worship than the organ - praise bands and such I find distracting, often irreverent and anyway too alien to the plain native (i mean Scottish) style. A choir too, provided they're only given good words to sing, is a help not a hindrance. 
I'm working out my notice at the moment, but it's a great grief to me to give all that up.


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## cajunhillbilly53 (Nov 18, 2011)

Maybe it is just me but I love the beauty of proper liturgy. The early Reformers were all a lot more liturgical than todays Reformed. As long as there is no "adoration" of the elements or worship of saints, etc, I think liturgical worship is very beautiful.


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## JennyG (Nov 18, 2011)

cajunhillbilly53 said:


> Maybe it is just me ...


No, it's a minimum of you and me


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## Edward (Nov 18, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> I've attended at least one PCA congregations that has responsive Scripture readings, such as those contained in the ESV pew Bible.


Responsive Psalm readings in the back of the Red Trinity Hymnal, as well.


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## jogri17 (Nov 22, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> jogri17 said:
> 
> 
> > Scottish Lass said:
> ...



I have private messaged you with names and a request to remove my notification. I am not charging the ARP as a whole, I all was saying is that I have talked only with two ARP ministers in my lifetime and both happened to explicately state they they have strong sympathies with the FV. I am one of those who thinks it is a mistake to lump NPP and FV together, but I do apoligize publicaly for my delay in finally responding and I hope that you will also consider using my email address (not puritan board private message) when it comes to serious things like this. I am far more likely to get it so we can avoid unnecessary notifications! God bless y'all.


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