# Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church vs. Cults



## ChristopherPaul (Sep 26, 2005)

It appears those who defend Christianity against cults such as Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness or the church of Latter-day Saints are from the Protestant Christian church. Do the eastern Christian churches address these cults as well? 

If so, How? (they certainly do not use Sola Scriptura) 

If not, why not?


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## Saiph (Sep 26, 2005)

They do not need Sola Scripture. In their systems they rely on Ecclesiastical authority. So everyone outside their sect is a cult.

Research the idea of _Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus_.


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## yeutter (Sep 26, 2005)

The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church has said the errors of the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism is qualitatively differnt from the error of evangelical Protestantism
The Church of Rome has said that Latter Day Saint and Jehovah's Witness Baptisms are not valid even if the right words are used.
The Church of Rome is certainly an apostate Church but it is not a cult. The Eastern Orthodox bodies have not definatively rejected the doctrine of justification solely by faith. They are in error but I would not presume them to be apostate the way I would Rome.


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## Saiph (Sep 27, 2005)

> The Church of Rome has said that Latter Day Saint and Jehovah's Witness Baptisms are not valid even if the right words are used.



Of course not. Because valid baptism is with water and in the name of the Trinity.

Neither of them are trinitarian. One is Arian and the other is heno/polytheistic.


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## SRoper (Sep 27, 2005)

"They do not need Sola Scripture. In their systems they rely on Ecclesiastical authority. So everyone outside their sect is a cult."

That's not the conclusion I gather from _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ (818, 819, 838). We would be considered members of an "ecclesial community."

Now the Eastern Churches tend to be more severe on this point, but I have no references that suggest one way or another that they invariably view outsiders as members of cults.


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## Saiph (Sep 27, 2005)

Perhaps I misread this then:


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14763a.htm



> If, therefore, the Catholic Church also claims the right of dogmatic intolerance with regard to her teaching, it is unjust to reproach her for exercising this right. With the imperturbable conviction that she was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ as the "pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim., iii, 15) and endowed with full power to teach, to rule, and to sanctify, she regards dogmatic intolerance not alone as her incontestable right, but also as a sacred duty. If Christian truth like every other truth is incapable of double dealing, it must be as intolerant as the multiplication table or geometry. The Church, therefore, demands, in virtue of her Divine commission to teach, the unconditional acceptance of all the truths of salvation which she preaches and proposes for belief, proclaiming to the world with her Divine Founder the stern warning: "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark, xvi, 16). If, by conceding a convenient right of option or a falsely understood freedom of faith, she were to leave everyone at liberty to accept or reject her dogmas, her constitution, and her sacraments, as the existing differences of religions compel the modern State to do, she would not only fail in her Divine mission, but would end her own life in voluntary suicide. As the true God can tolerate no strange gods, the true Church of Christ can tolerate no strange Churches beside herself, or, what amounts to the same, she can recognize none as theoretically justified. And it is just in this exclusiveness that lies her unique strength, the stirring power of her propaganda, the unfailing vigour of her progress. A strictly logical consequence of this incontestable fundamental idea is the ecclesiastical dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation (extra Ecclesiam nulla salus). Scarcely any other article of faith gives such offence to non-Catholics and occasions so many misunderstandings as this, owing to its supposed hardness and uncharitableness. And yet this proposition is necessarily and indissolubly connected with the above-mentioned principle of the exclusive legitimacy of truth and with the ethical commandment of love for the truth. Since Christ Himself did not leave men free to choose whether they would belong to the Church or not, it is clear that the idea of the Christian Church includes as an essential element its necessity for salvation. In her doctrine the Church must maintain that intolerance which her Divine Founder Himself proclaimed: "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Matt., xviii, 17). This explains the intense aversion which the Church has displayed to heresy , the diametrical opposite to revealed truth (cf. I Tim., i, 19; II Tim., ii, 25; Tit., iii, 10 sq.; II Thess., ii, 11). The celebrated church historian DÃ¶llinger writes very pertinently: "The Apostles knew no tolerance, no leniency towards heresies Paul inflicted formal excommunication on HymenÃ¦us and Alexander. And such an expulsion from the Church was always to be inflicted. The Apostles considered false doctrine destructive as a wicked example. With weighty emphasis Paul declares (Gal., i., 8): 'But though we or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema'. Even the gentle John forbids the community to offer hospitality to heretics coming to it, or even to salute them" ("Christentum und Kirche", Ratisbon, 1860, pp. 236 sq.).


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## SRoper (Sep 27, 2005)

1860. It appears that the unchanging church has changed.

I'll post my earlier cites from the more recent _Catechism_:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."


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## Saiph (Sep 27, 2005)

Thank you for the link.

Seems like they have broadened their stand on tolerance.

The Orthodox however, do view all outsiders as heretics.

Our friends became Orthodox and had to renounce all their former heresies. . . As an Augustinian I cringed when I witnessed their chrismation.


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