# Should we use the word heathen?



## David FCC (Oct 20, 2009)

Referring to all who are not as yet saved, should we refer to them as heathen? 
I do not think so but a friend thinks they should be referred to as that?

Any help? Quotes?


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## Montanablue (Oct 20, 2009)

Because of its connotations and history, I do not think it is a helpful or useful term for referring to non Christians - especially if they are present. "Non-Christian" or "Unbeliever" seems just as direct and are less likely to offend - and why offend over something so silly? Better to cause offense with the gospel than with a poorly chosen word.


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## JML (Oct 20, 2009)

I think it would depend on the context. The Scriptures refer to unconverted men as heathen so it is acceptable to do so. Our speech should be seasoned with salt as well so I would choose your context wisely.


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## Edward (Oct 20, 2009)

David FCC said:


> Referring to all who are not as yet saved



Are you making an assumption there? The 'as yet' gives me a bit of a pause. 

As for terminology, would you prefer 'apparent reprobate'?


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## Skyler (Oct 20, 2009)

I don't.

Usually, in the context I've heard it, it refers to savage unevangelized societies or one who acts like they come from said civilization (e.g., "the little heathens next door" [or downstairs! ]). I personally think this usage _is_ derogatory. However as a general adjective for _all_ unsaved, it's technically okay(though the connotation it conveys is frequently undesirable).


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## David FCC (Oct 20, 2009)

Edward said:


> David FCC said:
> 
> 
> > Referring to all who are not as yet saved
> ...



The as yet just simply means that we do not know who will or won't be saved.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

David FCC said:


> Referring to all who are not as yet saved, should we refer to them as heathen?
> I do not think so but a friend thinks they should be referred to as that?
> 
> Any help? Quotes?



David,

Those outside of God's people are to be thought of as heathens or publicans. Jesus used these two derogatory terms to describe people who are judicially excluded from the fellowship of the Church. His usage of this term secures its propriety.

I think it is not a fitting distinction to say that we should offend people with the gospel, but not with terms like _heathen_. The offense of the gospel resides in part in the terrors of the law for those outside of Christ, and calling someone a heathen is part of the legal distinction Christ makes between the visible Church and those outside the visible Church.

If used in a spirit of self-righteousness, it is a sinful abuse of a perfectly good term. However, if used merely as a judicial description, it may be helpful in introducing the topic of the gospel into a conversation.

Cheers,


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## Montanablue (Oct 20, 2009)

> If used in a spirit of self-righteousness, it is a sinful abuse of a perfectly good term.



I have never once heard this term used without a spirit or tone of self-righteousness - which is part of why I object to its use.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 20, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I have never once heard this term used without a spirit or tone of self-righteousness - which is part of why I object to its use.



Is it perhaps that you have a bad image of the word itself, which is a grid through which you hear the term? In addition, the abuse of a word should not illegitimize the word itself, but should give us caution in its use, which I think is what you're getting at.

Cheers,


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## MarieP (Oct 20, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Because of its connotations and history, I do not think it is a helpful or useful term for referring to non Christians - especially if they are present. "Non-Christian" or "Unbeliever" seems just as direct and are less likely to offend - and why offend over something so silly? Better to cause offense with the gospel than with a poorly chosen word.



I'd agree...but I'm not for changing the words to "Arm of the Lord, awake, awake" or "Jesus, with Thy church abide" anytime soon  So it makes me inconsistent, I guess.

I prefer "lost rebel sinner in need of the light of Christ"


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## Edward (Oct 20, 2009)

David FCC said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > David FCC said:
> ...



Thanks. I was reading into an assumption, based on the 'yet' that they would be regenerated later. As long as it's understood that the may not be of the elect, I'll withdraw my statement of concern. 

As for heathen, it is a Biblical term.


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## Knoxienne (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes.


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## Montanablue (Oct 20, 2009)

MarieP said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Because of its connotations and history, I do not think it is a helpful or useful term for referring to non Christians - especially if they are present. "Non-Christian" or "Unbeliever" seems just as direct and are less likely to offend - and why offend over something so silly? Better to cause offense with the gospel than with a poorly chosen word.
> ...



To clarify - I'm not saying that it must never be used. It makes a lot of sense, as you point out, in historical hymns etc. I object to its use in present day conversation to refer to present day unbelievers. I don't think we can ignore the connotations that surround the word - connotations that are fairly new but nonetheless are quite strong. And as I said - I have never once heard the word used by a present day person without a tone of self-righteousness. Even if the person does not mean to be self righteous, the word itself carries a connotation of self-righteousness. I just don't see the advantage over "unbeliever" or even "unregenerate."


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## ewenlin (Oct 20, 2009)

I do it in research writing.

Edwards talks about this (I think it's Edwards), how increasing numbers of ministers were refraining from using this exact word for fear of offense. Should be inside Noll's book.

I'm in school now, will check when I get home.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 20, 2009)

Pagan:

Main Entry: heathen
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen
Date: before 12th century

1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible
2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person

— hea·then·dom \-dəm\ noun

— hea·then·ism \-thə-ˌni-zəm\ noun

— hea·then·ize \-thə-ˌnīz\ transitive verb 


So I would say that it may be accurate at times.


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## Skyler (Oct 20, 2009)

ewenlin said:


> I do it in research writing.
> 
> Edwards talks about this (I think it's Edwards), how increasing numbers of ministers were refraining from using this exact word for fear of offense. Should be inside Noll's book.
> 
> I'm in school now, will check when I get home.



They haven't blocked the PB on your school's network? 

-----Added 10/20/2009 at 08:25:09 EST-----



kvanlaan said:


> Pagan:
> 
> Main Entry: heathen
> Function: noun
> ...



The definition, yes, but in English class I learned that a word has a definition and a connotation. I think the connotation is what causes the problem here.


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## ewenlin (Oct 20, 2009)

Skyler said:


> ewenlin said:
> 
> 
> > I do it in research writing.
> ...



This certainly made me smile this morning.  No, we don't have any filters on the school network. But I suspect some students peep into PB from time to time, probably because someone leaves open the PB page on the library computers.  I wonder who would do that?

That said, there is a marked increase of interest in calvinism within students here. I know some who are at least 4 pointers but there are a myriad of factors preventing them from embracing the entirety of Reformed thought. It's almost (if I dare make the comparison) like "coming out." Not a reflection on Reformed theology but rather the culture surrounding it here.


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## David FCC (Oct 21, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> Pagan:
> 
> Main Entry: heathen
> Function: noun
> ...



Thank you everyone for your comments, I always feel better after running stuff by you guys.

What dictionary was that taken from btw?


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## JennyG (Oct 21, 2009)

The trouble with shying away from a word because of its connotations - even though usually done with the best of motives - is that in no time at all that word becomes universally unacceptable. Then you have to substitute another, but inevitably that too will sooner or later collect some negative connotations, and so it goes on...


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## Knoxienne (Oct 21, 2009)

JennyG said:


> The trouble with shying away from a word because of its connotations - even though usually done with the best of motives - is that in no time at all that word becomes universally unacceptable. Then you have to substitute another, but inevitably that too will sooner or later collect some negative connotations, and so it goes on...



I agree, Jenny. That has been the case throughout the history of the Church. No offense intended toward David who started the thread or to anyone else, but I think if people have a problem with the word "heathen" they have a problem with Biblical doctrine. Because that's what we were before Christ saved us. Heathen. That's how the Bible (God's, holy, perfect, errorless, inspired Word) refers to the unsaved, period. What should we call them? "Unenlightened?" or as Bill Hybells calls them, "In spiritual process?" lol It's the same thing with wanting to take the word, "wretch" out of Amazing Grace. This is how Unitarian Universalism began. People were ashamed of the clear teachings of the Holy Scriptures and wanted to be nicer, kinder and more compassionate than Jesus Christ.


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## David FCC (Oct 21, 2009)

The thing is, having looked at the original, the same greek word "ethnos" that is used lots of times in the new testament as gentiles is in 5 places changed to heathen. Why the change? The other 2 uses of heathen were by Jesus and the word was slightly different "ethnikos" Again, can anyone help with why words are translated this way and then the difference between heathen and gentiles because the translators obviously thought there was one.

Thanks again guys, hope that made sense.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 21, 2009)

David FCC said:


> The thing is, having looked at the original, the same greek word "ethnos" that is used lots of times in the new testament as gentiles is in 5 places changed to heathen. Why the change? The other 2 uses of heathen were by Jesus and the word was slightly different "ethnikos" Again, can anyone help with why words are translated this way and then the difference between heathen and gentiles because the translators obviously thought there was one.
> 
> Thanks again guys, hope that made sense.



David,

The term ethnos primarily refers to the nations as nations, but was used as a derrogatory term by the Jews for non-Jews (the Hebrew is Goyim). Depending upon the context, the word is appropriately translated with the shades of meaning used in the first century as either nations, a person from one of those nations (Gentile, or heathen man), or as a godless person outside of God's Church ("as a heathen man or a publican").

Cheers,


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## charliejunfan (Oct 21, 2009)

I like Heath Bars....


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## Romans 8 Verse 28 (Oct 21, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> JennyG said:
> 
> 
> > The trouble with shying away from a word because of its connotations - even though usually done with the best of motives - is that in no time at all that word becomes universally unacceptable. Then you have to substitute another, but inevitably that too will sooner or later collect some negative connotations, and so it goes on...
> ...



I agree with you both. It's not as if we're calling anyone a reprobate by using the term either.

Furthermore, we as Christians ought to be nonconformists, including in our manner of speaking. But how often are we following the world (including the Major Media, Hollywood, etc)? How often do they dictate the positions we take on what's appropriate to say?

May God give us the strength and wisdom to go against the mood of these times.


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## ewenlin (Oct 22, 2009)

> Dr. T. (Dr. Taylor of Norwich) says, the apostle here speaks of the Gentiles only in their heathen state, in contradistinction to the Jews; and that not of particular persons among the heathen Gentiles, or as to the state they were in personally; *but only of the Gentiles collectively taken, or of the miserable state of that great collective body, the heathen world*: and that these appellation, sinners, ungodly, enemies, &c. were names by which the apostles in their writings were wont to signify and distinguish the heathen world, in opposition to the Jews; and that in this sense these appellations are to be taken in their epistles, and in this place in particular. *And it is observable, that this way of interpreting these phrases in the apostolic writings is become fashionable with many late writers; whereby they not only evade several clear testimonies to the doctrine of original sin, but make void great part of the New Testament; on which account it deserves the more particular consideration.*



Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 1, under Observations on Romans 6, 196.

See here.


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## JennyG (Oct 22, 2009)

Romans 8 Verse 28 said:


> I agree with you both. It's not as if we're calling anyone a reprobate by using the term either.
> 
> Furthermore, we as Christians ought to be nonconformists, including in our manner of speaking. But how often are we following the world (including the Major Media, Hollywood, etc)? How often do they dictate the positions we take on what's appropriate to say?


Mine wasn't much more than a practical point really,- it was Knoxienne who drew out the more serious Biblical implications. I agree all the way though. Such things are insidious, and because each individual step is so apparently trivial, can be harder to fight than a great open assault on faith.


> May God give us the strength and wisdom to go against the mood of these times.


Amen, and amen.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 22, 2009)

> Furthermore, we as Christians ought to be nonconformists, including in our manner of speaking. But how often are we following the world (including the Major Media, Hollywood, etc)? How often do they dictate the positions we take on what's appropriate to say?



All the more reason not to live with one foot in the world.


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## Zenas (Oct 22, 2009)

Actually had this come up on another message board that I frequented because I was a part of their gaming guild. I was not a believer at the time, but I had recently "got saved", but "backslid" a few months later.

Anyway, there was/is one believer on the board (he's a former Roman Catholic but now sadly enough I see he subscribes to the Calvary Chapel nonsense) who was and is actually pretty able and adept to give a defense of Christianity against the numerous atheists and agnostics on the board. (Mostly lots of Canadians and Scandinavians who were all atheists.) He was in some debate and someone took offense to the word heathen. To my surprise, other nonbelievers chastised the one who took offense, citing that they were in fact heathens because they didn't believe. 

The term is factually correct to use, but perhaps has picked up a derogatory connotation that detracts from the larger conversation. The term itself seems to be used in a knee-jerk manner by a lot, which is one reason why I think it has such a negative connotation.


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## ewenlin (Oct 22, 2009)

Zenas said:


> He was in some debate and someone took offense to the word heathen. To my surprise, other nonbelievers chastised the one who took offense, citing that they were in fact heathens because they didn't believe.
> 
> The term is factually correct to use, but perhaps has picked up a derogatory connotation that detracts from the larger conversation. The term itself seems to be used in a knee-jerk manner by a lot, which is one reason why I think it has such a negative connotation.



I think at times, it is us Christians who are just too afraid of offending people that it becomes ridiculous.


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## TimV (Oct 22, 2009)

As long as you're being polite about it. "Yes, I bought the sosaties from the heathen gentleman right over there".


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