# Article at Desiring God and Sexual Immorality



## Timmay

Yesterday I saw an article at DG that showed the results of a poll, stating that self-professed Christian men under 30, 50% of them professed to on going p0rn use. The percentage went down as the age went up, but the overall use was quite high among self-professed Christians. 

My question is, can these stats reflect actual regenerate persons? Can truly regenerate people struggle with this? Paul says the sexually immoral will not inherent the Kingdom. 
So how is it possible that a truly regenerate person could really have on going sexual immorality (even if they strive against it but fail)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Semper Fidelis

The fact that Paul warned the Church in his letters of sexual immorality is evidence that Christians may struggle with sexual immorality. He reminds them that slavery to sin is characteristic of their life outside of Christ and calls them to give battle to sin as those no longer enslaved to the passions of the flesh. A Christian ought to fear to give in to lust and ought to be killing sin in his members but the struggle itself is not a sign of spiritual death per se.


----------



## LilyG

The sexually immoral "will not inherit the kingdom of heaven"... Welp, that's every last one of us. Apart from Christ. We are all depraved by nature. The very term "struggle" indicates a war. A life of continual struggling, failing, and repentance is blazing evidence of a genuine Christian. To be concerned about sin is no mark of an unregenerate person (Romans 7). Praise God for His mercy to us in Christ!


----------



## Timmay

Even those that may never fully conquer this particular sin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Paul1976

I recall a sermon from Martin Lloyd-Jones where he described the difference between a regenerate and unregenerate person as follows. Both can and at point do fall into serious sin. An unregenerate person might be quite content to remain in that state. Of course, they may hate the *consequences *of the sin (you might picture a non-Christian alchoholic strugglin, and perhaps succeeding, at breaking that addiction). But, they do not hate the sin itself, and would happily continue in it if it were free of consequences. A regenerate person may fall into equally serious sins at times, but will hate the sin itself, and cannot remain in that state happily. I think the good doctor said the Christian would be miserable in that state, but it's been a few years since I heard the sermon.

Dr. Lloyd-Jones idea stuck, and I'm leaning towards accepting it, although I'm not sure I could point to enough scripture to state it as decided fact.

I would say a Christian may well fall into this particular sin, and may well struggle for years or for life. Others might struggle with pride for life, and I believe that to be a more serious sin (not to say sexual sin isn't serious). A good check of genuine conversion is not complete victory over sin, but hatred of the sin itself rather than its consequences. We will all have lingering sin in some form this side of eternity.


----------



## LilyG

Timmay said:


> Even those that may never fully conquer this particular sin?



God nowhere promises such a thing.


----------



## timfost

One who keeps returning to the same sin should have no assurance that he is repentant of it (repentance = turning away from, not just magic words). If faith and repentance are required for salvation, one should not keep returning to (in this case) p0rn and maintain that he is a Christian. Our election is always sure in God's eyes, but from our perspective it is not _apart from perseverance_. Peter says it well:



> But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith *virtue*, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge *self-control*, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. *For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble*; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



If the study you quote is accurate and 50% of "Christian" men return to this regular sin-- assuming that they continue in it-- they should not be calling themselves Christians as they are defiling the priestly office to which they were called (Rom. 12:1-2).

Unfortunately, the "carnal Christian" is becoming the norm in our society...


----------



## arapahoepark

Paul1976 said:


> I recall a sermon from Martin Lloyd-Jones where he described the difference between a regenerate and unregenerate person as follows. Both can and at point do fall into serious sin. An unregenerate person might be quite content to remain in that state. Of course, they may hate the *consequences *of the sin (you might picture a non-Christian alchoholic strugglin, and perhaps succeeding, at breaking that addiction). But, they do not hate the sin itself, and would happily continue in it if it were free of consequences. A regenerate person may fall into equally serious sins at times, but will hate the sin itself, and cannot remain in that state happily. I think the good doctor said the Christian would be miserable in that state, but it's been a few years since I heard the sermon.
> 
> Dr. Lloyd-Jones idea stuck, and I'm leaning towards accepting it, although I'm not sure I could point to enough scripture to state it as decided fact.
> 
> I would say a Christian may well fall into this particular sin, and may well struggle for years or for life. Others might struggle with pride for life, and I believe that to be a more serious sin (not to say sexual sin isn't serious). A good check of genuine conversion is not complete victory over sin, but hatred of the sin itself rather than its consequences. We will all have lingering sin in some form this side of eternity.



I can see this. I came across a site called Your Brain on p0rn and it is informative at what it does to the brain, though largely from a scientific point of view. It is obviously secular and they state their intention is not to ban p0rn. The testimonials on their indicate they hate the consequences of it regarding their sex lives but, they do not hate it, hate it, only what it has done to them specifically. The whole site gives off that vibe. Maybe it is a tad of common grace but certainly they do not hate it because God hates it.


----------



## RAR

timfost said:


> One who keeps returning to the same sin should have no assurance that he is repentant of it (repentance = turning away from, not just magic words). If faith and repentance are required for salvation, one should not keep returning to (in this case) p0rn and maintain that he is a Christian. Our election is always sure in God's eyes, but from our perspective it is not _apart from perseverance_. Peter says it well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith *virtue*, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge *self-control*, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. *For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble*; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the study you quote is accurate and 50% of "Christian" men return to this regular sin-- assuming that they continue in it-- they should not be calling themselves Christians as they are defiling the priestly office to which they were called (Rom. 12:1-2).
> 
> Unfortunately, the "carnal Christian" is becoming the norm in our society...
Click to expand...


----------



## KMK

From the LBC:



> Chapter 13aragraph 2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abides still some remnants of corruption in every part, wherefrom arises a *continual* and *irreconcilable* war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.



Our battle with the flesh is 'continual' and 'irreconcilable' this side of glory.


----------



## Jack K

Timmay said:


> Even those that may never fully conquer this particular sin?



In Christ, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, a true believer absolutely *will* fully conquer not just this particular sin but all particular sins. But this fullness of conquest *will not* happen in this lifetime.

While here, we continue to struggle. And while we struggle hard, it's important to remember that our sanctification is God's work in us and it takes place in his timeframe, which is often not as quickly as we might like.


----------



## ZackF

Timmay said:


> Even those that may never fully conquer this particular sin?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



One will never "fully conquer" any sin.


----------



## LilyG

timfost said:


> One who keeps returning to the same sin should have no assurance that he is repentant of it (repentance = turning away from, not just magic words). If faith and repentance are required for salvation, one should not keep returning to (in this case) p0rn and maintain that he is a Christian. Our election is always sure in God's eyes, but from our perspective it is not _apart from perseverance_...
> 
> If the study you quote is accurate and 50% of "Christian" men return to this regular sin-- assuming that they continue in it-- they should not be calling themselves Christians as they are defiling the priestly office to which they were called (Rom. 12:1-2).
> 
> Unfortunately, the "carnal Christian" is becoming the norm in our society...



That is no encouragement to any Christian. All of us have our own sinful inclinations and and tendencies we war against in this life.

I love this old excerpt from Thomas Brooks' " Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices", from an old thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/31349-Often-Relapses-Into-The-Same-Sin


----------



## Timmay

In that excerpt, what does he mean by Enormities and Infirmities? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Miss Marple

"self professed Christian" really runs the gamut. I mean you have cafeteria Catholics there I suppose and non church members of all stripes and members of very liberal churches. Perhaps Mormons and JWs and similar are also included, what they call a Christian is usually really, really broad.


----------



## LilyG

Timmay said:


> In that excerpt, what does he mean by Enormities and Infirmities?



I assume by "enormities", he is referring to sins that are more heinous and physically destructive than others. Such as murder, active homosexuality, adultery.

Evenso, note that numerous believers in the bible fell into even serious, gross sin, some with extended periods of impenetince.


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

Timmay said:


> Yesterday I saw an article at DG that showed the results of a poll, stating that self-professed Christian men under 30, 50% of them professed to on going p0rn use.



One might want to question the propriety of such polls to begin with. I would never go up to another person and ask "How many lustful thoughts have you had today?" Why not? Because it is none of my business to pry into other people's secret sins. Nor is it the duty of pollsters to do so either.


----------



## Vox Oculi

Is it possible to avoid searching for images or videos on a computer? Certainly. 

Sins that require overt participation through a physical act of some kind are easier to stop than sins within the mind. That's simply because you have more control over your body than you do over your thoughts. 

I daresay it's easier to mortify the sin of serial promiscuity than the sin of fornication, and easier to mortify fornication than to mortify the sin of p0rnography or masturbation, and easier to mortify them than to mortify the sin of lustful wandering eyes, and easier to mortify that than to mortify the sin of imagining an adulterous encounter in the privacy of your inner thoughts. And even easier to mortify that than to prohibit all thoughts of temptation from occurring whatsoever.

Where does one draw the line? It's not so much an objective thing as it is, to quote Todd Friel, you ought to be "moving in a direction of holiness," i.e. farther from the beginning of the sentence to the end as you progress through your walk. 

That can be hard if you're already starting at "squeaky clean" from an outside, human perspective. It is for ourselves to know and evaluate our own progress. Radical honesty is necessary. Be careful not to do it as a work that you offer to God. But ask Him for help that you can have victory over sin and live a life pleasing to Him, not as if you're adding anything to how much He loves you/earning favor, but simply because it's the right thing to do and He's placed an inexplicable desire in you to simply do what He desires for its own sake.


----------



## Paul1976

I think part of the reason this particular topic is a bit difficult to reconcile with the necessity of sanctification is that when someone says "I'm struggling with [insert sexual sin here]," they often mean "I'm currently engaging in [insert sexual sin here] and, although I recognize it's inconsistent with my professed faith, I'm not actually doing anything to change." In other words, "struggling" doesn't involve any discernible struggle.

We have plenty of examples in scripture of believers falling into a variety of sins, and in some instances not dealing with them until external circumstances force the issue. I would be very hesitant to say that all Christians will have sufficient victory over a sin, even serious ones, that they do not fall back into it at times. But, when they say they are struggling, they mean it. I would also say to someone not struggling that their lack of desire to defeat that sin is an indication they may not in fact be regenerate, in which case they have a far bigger problem than whatever sin they are involved with.


----------



## Toasty

One may stop looking at pornographic material, but that does not mean that he has stopped thinking lustful thoughts. 

A young boy may stop being mean to his sister after being disciplined by his parents, but that does not mean that there is love in his heart towards his sister. He may have stopped the mean behavior, but that does not mean that the hatred in his heart was removed.


----------



## Toasty

The regenerate are changed, but that does not mean that they will live a sinless life. There is a difference between changed and being sinless.


----------



## Jeremy Ivens

I've been thinking the same thing. Sexual immorality has "special" warnings against it in the Bible. Wouldn't it be a habitual sin after a while? Also, this topic was brought up on Reddit yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/3zurfw/how_have_all_of_you_conquered_sexual_immorality/


----------



## Scott Bushey

My 2 cents: It all comes down to "practicing". If you are practicing it and embracing it, you are possibly still in your flesh. Big difference, spiritually speaking, between indulgence and doing battle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pergamum

Do we ever "fully conquer" most sins in our life?


----------



## Peairtach

On another aspect of this, I think these studies/ surveys in such articles about lust are worse than useless since it is highly unlikely they will be accurate. If they are estimating too high they may give some an excuse for further licence. If they are estimating too low they may discourage some souls. And do they tell anything about how often the participants were committing this particular sin or how many of the participants were regenerate or unregenerate?



Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## LilyG

Peairtach said:


> On another aspect of this, I think these studies/ surveys in such articles about lust are worse than useless since it is highly unlikely they will be accurate. If they are estimating too high they may give some an excuse for further licence. If they are estimating too low they may discourage some souls. And do they tell anything about how often the participants were committing this particular sin or how many of the participants were regenerate or unregenerate?



Indeed.


----------



## timfost

LilyG said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> 
> One who keeps returning to the same sin should have no assurance that he is repentant of it (repentance = turning away from, not just magic words). If faith and repentance are required for salvation, one should not keep returning to (in this case) p0rn and maintain that he is a Christian. Our election is always sure in God's eyes, but from our perspective it is not _apart from perseverance_...
> 
> If the study you quote is accurate and 50% of "Christian" men return to this regular sin-- assuming that they continue in it-- they should not be calling themselves Christians as they are defiling the priestly office to which they were called (Rom. 12:1-2).
> 
> Unfortunately, the "carnal Christian" is becoming the norm in our society...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is no encouragement to any Christian. All of us have our own sinful inclinations and and tendencies we war against in this life.
> 
> I love this old excerpt from Thomas Brooks' " Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices", from an old thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/31349-Often-Relapses-Into-The-Same-Sin
Click to expand...


Of course we war against these things all our lives. But is there any comfort when we don't see the Holy Spirit's work conforming us to the law of God? Christ says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15).



> 114. *Can those who are converted to God keep these commandments perfectly?*
> 
> No, but even the holiest men, while in this life, have only a small beginning of such obedience, yet so that with *earnest purpose they begin to live not only according to some, but according to all the commandments of God*. (Heidelberg)





> ARTICLE 1 Those whom God, according to His purpose, calls to the communion of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, He also delivers from the dominion and slavery of sin, though in this life He does not deliver them altogether from the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh.
> 
> ARTICLE 11 The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor. 10: 13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering. (5th Head)



All I am trying to say is that since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility), if we see a lack of fruit, what assurance should we have? Christians will struggle with sin for their entire life for sure, but repentance is not simply knowing that it was wrong or feeling guilt, but rather turning away from it.

I hope that clarifies...


----------



## Vox Oculi

timfost said:


> All I am trying to say is that since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility), if we see a lack of fruit, what assurance should we have? Christians will struggle with sin for their entire life for sure, but repentance is not simply knowing that it was wrong or feeling guilt, but rather turning away from it.
> 
> I hope that clarifies...



Indeed; the difference between _metanoia_ and _metamelomai._


----------



## LilyG

timfost said:


> All I am trying to say is that since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility), if we see a lack of fruit, what assurance should we have? Christians will struggle with sin for their entire life for sure, but repentance is not simply knowing that it was wrong or feeling guilt, but rather turning away from it.
> 
> I hope that clarifies...



Our sanctification does function to assure us, sure. But it is not the basis of our assurance. If it was, we are setting ourselves up for uncertainty, depression and despair.


----------



## timfost

LilyG said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I am trying to say is that since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility), if we see a lack of fruit, what assurance should we have? Christians will struggle with sin for their entire life for sure, but repentance is not simply knowing that it was wrong or feeling guilt, but rather turning away from it.
> 
> I hope that clarifies...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our sanctification does function to assure us, sure. But it is not the basis of our assurance. If it was, we are setting ourselves up for uncertainty, depression and despair.
Click to expand...


I think you may have created a false dichotomy. We're not saying anything different. James 2:18 may help.

Blessings.


----------



## Vox Oculi

LilyG said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I am trying to say is that since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility), if we see a lack of fruit, what assurance should we have? Christians will struggle with sin for their entire life for sure, but repentance is not simply knowing that it was wrong or feeling guilt, but rather turning away from it.
> 
> I hope that clarifies...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our sanctification does function to assure us, sure. But it is not the basis of our assurance. If it was, we are setting ourselves up for uncertainty, depression and despair.
Click to expand...


Yes, the Word is our source of confidence. God's promise to us that if we believe, we're saved. The _purpose_ of works as far as their effect on us, as you said, _is_ to confirm to us our salvation. It is an aid, that gives further confidence. You make a very good point that it by itself is not and shouldn't be the ROOT of our assurance. The foundation of our confidence is God, God's Word, God's character. Sanctification is a gratifying confirmation of what we _already know_. It functions to make us less susceptible to 'flaming arrows' -- attacks that question our faith.

Thanks LilyG. I just wanted to emphasize and underscore. Bearing in mind that the forum is publicly viewable, and saying the same thing from different angles can help a person 'get' something.


----------



## LilyG

timfost said:


> I think you may have created a false dichotomy. We're not saying anything different. James 2:18 may help.
> 
> Blessings.



Maybe, and if so, I apologize. It seems as though you are saying if we don't repent so many times for any particular sin, we should take that as proof we aren't saved.




timfost said:


> since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility)...



Hm, disagreed.


----------



## timfost

LilyG said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may have created a false dichotomy. We're not saying anything different. James 2:18 may help.
> 
> Blessings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, and if so, I apologize. It seems as though you are saying if we don't repent so many times for any particular sin, we should take that as proof we aren't saved.
Click to expand...


I'm speaking of _assurance_ of salvation. There is no assurance apart from sanctification and perseverance.




LilyG said:


> timfost said:
> 
> 
> 
> since we do not know our election like God does (objectively and infallibility)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hm, disagreed.
Click to expand...


Perhaps I'm being unclear. This might help:



> *Article 12*
> 
> The elect in due time, *though in various degrees and in different measures*, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, *not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God*, but by *observing* in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the *infallible fruits of election* pointed out in the Word of God—such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, *a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness*, etc. (Canons, First Head)



and:



> True believers may have the *assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted*; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by *falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit*; by some *sudden or vehement temptation*, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair. (WCF 18.4)



If we knew our election objectibly and infallibly _as God knows it_, why would we need assurance? With an infallible knowledge of election, how could we lack assurance of salvation? Also, notice in Dort how our knowledge of our election is not infallible, but rather the fruits produced by the Spirit are infallibly brought forth in the lives of the elect.

I hope that clarifies...


----------



## Vox Oculi

[video]https://www.youtube.com/qdvZk5BokFE[/video]

This is in line with 'testing oneself to see if one is in the faith'


----------



## LilyG

timfost said:


> I'm speaking of _assurance_ of salvation. There is no assurance apart from sanctification and perseverance.




Ah I see. Well again, sure our sanctification functions to confirm, but it should not be our run-to. I guess I'm just really striving to emphasize, to anyone who needs to hear it, that our assurance should first and foremost come from our faith in *God's promises* to us. Brothers and sisters who war against persistent temptations -repenting, succeeding, failing, running back to Christ - *no matter how many times* - should not despair of their salvation. The very fact that they are concerned, love God and his word, and war against it should console them. Their spiritual state is very different from the unregenerate. In our many failures, what other comfort is there? That is not contrary to our confessions.

"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him,“I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times." (Matt 18:21, 22)

Or, dare I reference Luther's "Sin Boldly" speech?


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Lily,

I think the broader point is that there is not a "single" method by which a man (or woman) should strive for assurance. There are external and internal testimonies of assurance. We have the external testimony of the Word that proclaims the Gospel to us and that eternal life belongs to those who trust upon Christ. We also have the "golden chain" of Romans 8 that tells us that those who are foreknown are called are justified are glorified. This chain stretches into eternity past and future. It is the plan of God to save His elect. The internal testimony of the Spirit teaches us that what we read in the Scriptures about the man saved by trusting in and being united to Christ is true for each of us. We know, then, that if we have put our trust in Christ that we are united to our Covenant head and He has accomplished all things for our life and salvation.

The Gospel is then true for us. It is not only true that the Gospel of Romans 3-5 is true of us but the Gospel of Romans 6 is true. Romans 6 teaches us that those who have been united to Christ have been united to His death and resurrection and have been set free from the enslaving power of sin and united to the indestructible life of Christ. We are no longer slave to sin but slaves to Christ.

Because this is true, it has implications to our thinking. Read how many times Paul tells us to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. If it is true that Romans 6 is true and we are being sanctified by Christ then this is not merely a theoretical but a historical truth. We will be sanctified because Christ, our Mediator, is interceding for us and conquering every foe for our sanctification. It is then the case that we must be sanctified by Him for it is impossible that a person can be united to Christ and not be made holy by Him. A Christian may, therefore, look at the fruit that the Spirit of Christ is producing and detect evidence that Christ is indeed sanctifying him.

Thus, the purpose of looking at our fruits of repentance and faith is not a morbid introspection to see how hard we're trying but a recognition that the man united to Christ will grow in holiness. We trust the Christ of our sanctification to work in us fruits in keeping with repentance. Christ says that if you abide in me then you will produce fruit. To deny that fruit can be evidenced is to cast doubt that Christ can produce what He promises.


----------



## LilyG

Semper Fidelis, 

Indeed! I know those things, and thank you. I'm sorry for being unclear.


----------



## Vox Oculi

And the synthesis of the two: sanctification occurs over a period of time. Therefore fruit is absolutely expected over a lifetime, but there is no blueprint for how rapid or seamless one's progress is.


----------



## LilyG

Vox Oculi said:


> And the synthesis of the two: sanctification occurs over a period of time. Therefore fruit is absolutely expected over a lifetime, but there is no blueprint for how rapid or seamless one's progress is.



And it is a very long, drawn out process. Yes we produce fruit. But at times, it seems we go backwards! 

To the OP, just be careful not to judge someone as an unbeliever because they struggle with any particular sin. They, and all of us, need to hear the Gospel, not "you should be here or here by now"... I do wish some of the comments in this thread were more Gospel-focused.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

LilyG said:


> Vox Oculi said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the synthesis of the two: sanctification occurs over a period of time. Therefore, fruit is absolutely expected over a lifetime, but there is no blueprint for how rapid or seamless one's progress is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it is a very long, drawn-out process. Yes, we produce fruit. But at times, it seems we go backwards!
> 
> To the OP, just be careful not to judge someone as an unbeliever because they struggle with any particular sin. They, and all of us need to hear the Gospel, not "you should be here or here by now"... I do wish some of the comments in this thread were more Gospel-focused.
Click to expand...


My very first reply to the OP pointed out that struggle with sin is not an indicator that a person is spiritually dead.

There is no "arriving" at sanctification. It is a lifelong battle. It never ends. There are, however, important considerations to remember about the battle:

1. The Gospel includes the reality that not only the guilt of sin has been put to death in Christ (Rom 3-4) but also the power of sin (Romans 6, Rom 8:1-17). 
2. The fact that the guilt of sin has been paid by Christ should never be used as a reason for Christians to give up on the battle to sin in the moment with the idea that "...well it's forgiven anyway."
3. The fact that the power of sin is put to death for those in Christ ought to be a reminder to them that, in the hour of temptation, they are Christ's and they ought to rely upon Him to rescue them from temptation.

I think far too many Christians live with the idea of the Gospel as being the News that Christ has paid the penalty for sin and that they are forgiven their sins. This is good news but it is not the only "news" of the Gospel. Romans 8 teaches us that the power of sin as a controlling domain has been put to death in Christ. If we are in Christ we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. This is not a power of positive thinking but a spiritual reality and is to be our armor as we go into battle as we consider that the power of Christ's life is ours by the Spirit. I am powerless by the flesh to resist temptation but I am not in the flesh. I am in Christ by the Spirit and the law of the Spirit brings life.

I say this, then, with some hesitation so as not to discourage a Christain who is battling sin in his members: if a person who claims Christ is enslaved to sexual sin then he _might_ not be in Christ. I don't want to paint with a wide brush and say that a man is not a Christian because he feels defeated by his sin: he needs to meditate upon the Scriptures that I have presented above and consider who he is in Christ and find the resource there to give battle. Yet, I say with concern, that a man who does not give battle or have the resources to give battle, that he needs to consider whether or not he is in the faith. We can be deceived. As a Roman Catholic I hated that I struggled with sexual sin but, in the flesh, the law could not produce in me what it commanded. It could only condemn me and my flesh was powerless to obey the command. It is only the power of Christ that has set me free because He is the only One powerful enough to set any man free. That's the Gospel.


----------



## MW

There is a moral immune system. The immune system must recognise the alien nature of the intruder and then it will mobilise its forces against it. While the intruder is regarded as "natural" or "normal" in any way there will be a break-down of resistance.


----------



## LilyG

Semper Fidelis said:


> LilyG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vox Oculi said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the synthesis of the two: sanctification occurs over a period of time. Therefore, fruit is absolutely expected over a lifetime, but there is no blueprint for how rapid or seamless one's progress is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it is a very long, drawn-out process. Yes, we produce fruit. But at times, it seems we go backwards!
> 
> To the OP, just be careful not to judge someone as an unbeliever because they struggle with any particular sin. They, and all of us need to hear the Gospel, not "you should be here or here by now"... I do wish some of the comments in this thread were more Gospel-focused.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My very first reply to the OP pointed out that struggle with sin is not an indicator that a person is spiritually dead.
> 
> There is no "arriving" at sanctification. It is a lifelong battle. It never ends. There are, however, important considerations to remember about the battle:
> 
> 1. The Gospel includes the reality that not only the guilt of sin has been put to death in Christ (Rom 3-4) but also the power of sin (Romans 6, Rom 8:1-17).
> 2. The fact that the guilt of sin has been paid by Christ should never be used as a reason for Christians to give up on the battle to sin in the moment with the idea that "...well it's forgiven anyway."
> 3. The fact that the power of sin is put to death for those in Christ ought to be a reminder to them that, in the hour of temptation, they are Christ's and they ought to rely upon Him to rescue them from temptation.
> 
> I think far too many Christians live with the idea of the Gospel as being the News that Christ has paid the penalty for sin and that they are forgiven their sins. This is good news but it is not the only "news" of the Gospel. Romans 8 teaches us that the power of sin as a controlling domain has been put to death in Christ. If we are in Christ we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. This is not a power of positive thinking but a spiritual reality and is to be our armor as we go into battle as we consider that the power of Christ's life is ours by the Spirit. I am powerless by the flesh to resist temptation but I am not in the flesh. I am in Christ by the Spirit and the law of the Spirit brings life.
> 
> I say this, then, with some hesitation so as not to discourage a Christain who is battling sin in his members: if a person who claims Christ is enslaved to sexual sin then he _might_ not be in Christ. I don't want to paint with a wide brush and say that a man is not a Christian because he feels defeated by his sin: he needs to meditate upon the Scriptures that I have presented above and consider who he is in Christ and find the resource there to give battle. Yet, I say with concern, that a man who does not give battle or have the resources to give battle, that he needs to consider whether or not he is in the faith. We can be deceived. As a Roman Catholic I hated that I struggled with sexual sin but, in the flesh, the law could not produce in me what it commanded. It could only condemn me and my flesh was powerless to obey the command. It is only the power of Christ that has set me free because He is the only One powerful enough to set any man free. That's the Gospel.
Click to expand...


Amen, agreed to all. Thank you for the comment.


----------



## timfost

LilyG said:


> They, and all of us, need to hear the Gospel, not "you should be here or here by now"... I do wish some of the comments in this thread were more Gospel-focused.



I hope that I haven't communicated that to have full assurance of salvation we need to "arrive." Arrival will not occur any sooner than when we're in glory.

Like Rich has been saying, the gospel extends much further than our justification but is ongoing through the Christian life. The Belgic Confession, Article 22b does an excellent job explaining that the righteousness that Christ merited upholds us throughout our entire Christian life. It is precisely this reason that we should "be careful to maintain good works" (Tit. 3:8, 14).

We also need to be careful that the faith we look for is not one in word only, or an accumulation of knowledge itself, but one that actively works (e.g. book of James).

I think that the distinction between law and gospel is helpful, but we need to remember that there is no gospel without law. Beza does a wonderful job explaining this. The article is linked below.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/the-word-of-god-by-dr-theodore-beza/

Blessings


----------

