# Church Super Bowl Parties can Continue...lovely



## Theoretical (Feb 3, 2007)

Church 'Super Bowl' Fesitivities May Go On

This story would be hilarious if it wasn't so ridiculous (which I'd say even the non-Sabbatarians here would agree with). Charging admission to a church super bowl party - have they no shame????????? Not even counting the propriety or non-propriety of such an endeavor privately, can we at least agree that this is absurd for the church itself to be doing?


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 3, 2007)

Absolutely!


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## Pergamum (Feb 3, 2007)

A few years back I got invited to a Super Bowl party and when I said I didn't want to go, they asked why. 

So I said that this had no place in the church. 


I tried to be irenic, but they actually *scoffed* at me.


The next morning, he winced when I asked him how many Sunday school kids saw Janet Jackson's boob in the church auditorium.


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## turmeric (Feb 4, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> The next morning, he winced when I asked him how many Sunday school kids saw Janet Jackson's boob in the church auditorium.


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## CalvinandHodges (Feb 4, 2007)

*Super Bowl in RTS?*

Hay:

About 2 years ago I was in conversation with a student at RTS Orlando who said he attended a SuperBowl party of some unsaved friends, "because I wanted to evangelize them."

I said to him that a better witness would have been to be absent and in Church praying for them. Consequently, when they asked why he was not there - he then would have an opening to talk to them about God.

He did not agree with me and steadfastly maintained that he was invoking a "common grace" ministry.

I think he wanted a "godly" excuse to watch the game.

Blessings,

-CH


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 4, 2007)

I'll be going to a Superbowl gathering tomorrow at the Officer's Club...it begins here at 8 am local on *MONDAY*.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Why not? Church is about entertainment and what is more entertaining than the Super Bowl, even the commercials are an event, I think the church could learn something from corporate America.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 4, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> I'll be going to a Superbowl gathering tomorrow at the Officer's Club...it begins here at 8 am local on *MONDAY*.



(shhh, don't tell street preacher!)


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 4, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> (shhh, don't tell street preacher!)



 I have to admit that I've always enjoyed gathering together with friends to watch the SuperBowl in the past. I think the PB might have changed me as I haven't lived in the States since then. I've never watched a SuperBowl party at Church though but usually go over to others' homes.


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## CalvinandHodges (Feb 4, 2007)

*Sabbatarianism is not legalism*

Hay:

From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or Lord's day to be sanctified?

A. The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and *recreations as are on other days lawful*; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercies of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, *about our worldly thoughts and recreations*.

Watching the SuperBowl is a "worldly recreation" and, may be lawful on other days, but is a sin to do on the Lord's day.

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

> Watching the SuperBowl is a "worldly recreation" and, may be lawful on other days, but is a sin to do on the Lord's day.
> 
> Grace and Peace,
> 
> -CH


 Well I am going to sin tomorrow.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Well I am going to sin tomorrow.



Travis,

Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.

If you agree that it is a sin, then don't come on this Board announcing your volitional rebellion against God.

If you disagree that it is a sin then say so.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Travis,
> 
> Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.
> 
> ...


Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.

I do think that condemning someone for watching a sporting event late in their day of rest is very legalistic. 

I think it is on par with the media fasts imposed by some charismatic churches.

I know that George Whitfield despised the theater even as a former actor, perhaps especially as a former one but does anyone here think that going to the theater or watching films in and of itself is wicked? 

Certainly there are events that are not the best use of time and of questionable content that one can remain guarded against but gathering with fellow believers at a home long after corporate worship has been observed and enjoying a football game together is not an offense to the sabbath.


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## Theoretical (Feb 4, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Travis,
> 
> Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.
> 
> ...


 to Rich's point. I'm someone more convicted about the Sabbath, though not even close to where I'd like to be in terms of practice , but one should not dismiss another's assertion that even something you consider adiaphora would be sin so lightly. While one can make fairly good non-Sabbatarian arguments, that attitude is either being flippant or willfulling broadcasting a future sinful action (from your perspective).

I certainly am not the best follower of the Sabbath myself, particularly in line with my growing convictions on it, but I have old habits and practices I am actively working to break and replace with new ones. in my opinion, for a convicted Sabbatarian who was raised in a VERY non-Sabbatarian way, it is one of the toughest commands to follow, just because so much is ordinary habit that must be replaced.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.


Who, God? Is He the One you will no doubt offend?


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## Theoretical (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.
> 
> I do think that condemning someone for watching a sporting event late in their day of rest is very legalistic.
> 
> ...


As to your point on the theater, Abraham Kuyper in _Lectures on Calvinism_ does at least make a very compelling case against it, from history. At the very minimum, whether or not you accept his reasoning, it is not a silly legalist argument. I've quoted the portion below from the Kuyper Foundation Online Edition of [_Lectures on Calvinism_



> Entirely different objections were entertained against Theatre-going. In itself there is nothing sinful in fiction–the power of the imagination is a precious gift of God Himself. Neither is there any special evil in dramatic imagination. How highly did Milton appreciate Shakespeare's Drama, and did not he himself write in dramatic form? Nor did the evil lie in public theatrical representations, as such. Public performances were given for all the people at Geneva, in the Market Place, in Calvin's time. and with his approval. No, that which offended our ancestors was not the comedy or tragedy, nor should have been the opera, in itself, but the moral sacrifice which as a rule was demanded of actors and actresses for the amusement of the public. A theatrical troop, in those days especially, stood, morally, rather low. This low moral standard resulted partly from the fact that the constant and ever-changing presentation of the character of another person finally hampers the moulding of your personal character; and partly because our modern Theaters, unlike the Greek, have introduced the presence of women on the stage, the prosperity of the Theater being too often gauged by the measure in which a woman jeopardizes the most sacred treasures God entrusts to her, her stainless name, and irreproachable conduct. Certainly, a strictly normal Theater is very well conceivable; but with the exception of a few large cities, such Theaters would neither be sufficiently patronized nor could exist financially; and the actual fact remains that, taking all the world over, the prosperity of a Theater often increases in proportion to the moral degradation of the actors. Too often therefore Hall Caine in his “Christian” corroborated once more the sad truth–the prosperity of Theaters is purchased at the cost of manly character, and of female purity. And the purchase of delight for the ear and the eye at the price of such a moral hecatomb, the Calvinist, who honored whatever was human in man for the sake of God, could not but condemn.



One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse, as pure legalism, because there are very strong theological arguments many throughout history would make. Even if you don't adopt as strict a form as some Puritan expressions were; nonetheless, don't discount the strict convictions so flippantly. 

Christian liberty cuts both ways, and charity towards those with much stricter convictions than you is in order.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> As to your point on the theater, Abraham Kuyper in _Lectures on Calvinism_ does at least make a very compelling case against it, from history. At the very minimum, whether or not you accept his reasoning, it is not a silly legalist argument. I've quoted the portion below from the Kuyper Foundation Online Edition of [I]Lectures on Calvinism[/I]
> 
> 
> 
> One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse pure legalism, as there are very strong theological arguments many throughout history would say. Even if you don't adopt as strict a form as some Puritan expressions were, nonetheless, don't discount the strict convictions so flippantly. Christian liberty cuts both ways.


His reasoning has merit for someone who has a crisis of identity and does not hold to Christ, you see it today still, but to argue that escapism has no place as an art or entertainment is absurd. You must condemn most of literature and any facet it spawned (content wise you would have an argument but to do so at the cost of annihilating a treasure trove of wonderful writing that does not condone humanistic virtues). 

A believer can create works of fiction and allegory for the stage, book or screen and not be consumed by it, dare I say even do it to the glory of God.

To observe the sabbath as a day of rest and corporate worship and to ponder about the scriptures is marvelous and adhered to by genuine believers but if they turn on their television before nightfall and take in a football game before bed I do not recognize the offense anymore than I do a Christian artisan choosing to be in the world as a writer or actor but not of the world.

Why are there book reviews and movie reviews on this board if this is the case?
Should we be on the internet at this hour for it is early Sunday for us Americans?


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## Archlute (Feb 4, 2007)

Hey, gents, check this out. I've got my head so far in my seminary studies (as well as the fact that we don't have cable at our place), that I didn't even know the Super Bowl was happening tomorrow until I read this thread!


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Archlute said:


> Hey, gents, check this out. I've got my head so far in my seminary studies (as well as the fact that we don't have cable at our place), that I didn't even know the Super Bowl was happening tomorrow until I read this thread!


Awesome, you haven't missed much, I hardly watch TV myself.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 4, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse pure legalism...


That's a very good point. There is a small little thing called the Fourth Commandment after all. Now, if one is under the opinion that the Sabbath has been completely fulfilled with the advent of Christ then it is one thing (and an argument unto itself). If one believes that it is a Creation Ordinance and reflects the holy character of God and is part of the moral law then you really need to be careful.

There are two pits that one can fall into when it comes to the commands of God:

1. Calling someting unlawful that God has called indifferent.
2. Calling something indifferent that God has called lawful.

If you admit that the Sabbath is, in any way, binding upon men then you need to really determine where that command begins and ends before you accuse someone of adding to God's commands.

If the Sabbath is binding in a way that we find indifferent, then we are no less offending God than a man who finds lust indifferent when it comes to Adultery.


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## CalvinandHodges (Feb 4, 2007)

*Missing the point*

Travis:

You miss the point. Notice the boldface in my quote:

...but even from such worldly employments and recreations *as are on other days lawful*;

Watching the SuperBowl, going to a movie, seeing a play are all lawful activities - on days other than the Lord's Day. (Well, maybe some movies and plays are not lawful). These things are "worldly recreations" and are not lawful to do on the Sabbath of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God gives us one day of rest from our cares, our business and our recreations so that we may devote ourselves to Him. Isn't that wonderful? Why would you want to ruin such a thing by placing your own luxury first?

Grace and Peace on this Sabbath day,

-CH


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 4, 2007)

Travis, would you say there are even _any_ thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?



Theoretical said:


> I certainly am not the best follower of the Sabbath myself, particularly in line with my growing convictions on it, but I have old habits and practices I am actively working to break and replace with new ones. in my opinion, for a convicted Sabbatarian who was raised in a VERY non-Sabbatarian way, it is one of the toughest commands to follow, just because so much is ordinary habit that must be replaced.



I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> Travis, would you say there are even _any_ thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?
> 
> 
> 
> I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?


I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion.

The day is a time that God promises to meet with us and all the Saints of history in communion and worship but to briefly kick up your feet and take in a movie, sport, conversation or book that is of an escapist nature is forbidden on your day of rest?


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## Theoretical (Feb 4, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> Travis, would you say there are even _any_ thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?
> 
> 
> 
> I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?


More than anything, it was extreme frustration with having good motives and then acting against my conscience, as I had been doing for years before ever really knowing of "Sabbath Theology". Even before I'd ever studied it, it just seemed wrong to do ordinary work or recreation on the Lord's Day, but did that mean I was in any way, shape or form following my convictions? No .

I'm currently now struggling a lot to implement things, but I've started fixing fairly low-effort breakfasts for friends who go to church with me, while we listen to the latest White Horse Inn episode. In the evenings, I'm starting to do the same with dinners and other Christian friends - again, going for the fairly simple, and trying to foster good attitudes of fellowship. I'm trying to do Scripture reading, edifying podcast listening, or theological study in the afternoons. These are my goals, and I'm getting there slowly. By far, the toughest part is making sure logistically that I don't have to go shopping on Sunday for food for myself or others, and I'm still not good about following that all of the time. I promise you, I am much worse at actually following these guidelines and developments than what I've listed - I have so far to go.

As for actually taking joy in it, I'm only barely seeing much outright joy in following this day of rest, especially given that my hardest and longest day of classes is Monday this term, and I've also developed really bad procrastination habits that need to be killed . 

Nonetheless, I believe it is a Scriptural command, and I do believe I will be granted more rest and joy with obedience to this command and the pangs of conscience, regardless of whether or not I feel like following my convictions on the matter. How I am spiritually feeling on Sunday does not ever relieve my duty to honor Him and this Commandment.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion.
> 
> The day is a time that God promises to meet with us and all the Saints of history in communion and worship but to briefly kick up your feet and take in a movie, sport, conversation or book that is of an escapist nature is forbidden on your day of rest?



The aspect of communal, corporate worship is indeed the "highlight" of the day if you will, which is a good thing to recognize. But the problem with that you're saying about the _rest_ of the day is that if there are in fact _no_ practices that are unlawful during that time but lawful the rest of the week, then beyond the corporate worship service, there is absolutely _no difference_ between it and any of the other days whatsoever; and in that conception of it, the remainder of the day beyond corporate worship is really not a day of rest in any sense, any more than any other day.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> The aspect of communal, corporate worship is indeed the "highlight" of the day if you will, which is a good thing to recognize. But the problem with that you're saying about the _rest_ of the day is that if there are in fact _no_ practices that are unlawful during that time but lawful the rest of the week, then beyond the corporate worship service, there is absolutely _no difference_ between it and any of the other days whatsoever; and in that conception of it, the remainder of the day beyond corporate worship is really not a day of rest in any sense, any more than any other day.


It is a day of rest free of the aggravations of work and toiling in worldly affairs but even Christ asserted not to ignore pressing matters on the sabbath so it could well be interupted by the world.

I do take Sunday off as a time to recharge and rest, it is usually one of the lone times of fellowship and recreation afforded to many believers as well.

What is your opinion of Saturday sabbath holders (some genuine Christians adhere to such and not just SDA)? Are they wrong for holding that day sacred but not Sunday?

I look to Christ to fulfill the law perfectly, I don't understand how I can perfectly honor the day of rest as you prescribe here.

Do I need to read and discuss apologetics the whole day? Sing hymns in the shower and refrain from any escapist thoughts or conversation not emphasizing the sermon of the day? What standard is there for me, has Christ not come to fulfill what I cannot possibly satisfy?


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## beej6 (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> <snip> Certainly there are events that are not the best use of time and of questionable content that one can remain guarded against but gathering with fellow believers at a home long after corporate worship has been observed and enjoying a football game together is not an offense to the sabbath.



Perhaps the attitude behind your statement "...long after corporate worship has been observed..." is an excellent argument for an evening worship service. But even if your church doesn't observe this, it doesn't remove the command of sanctifying the entire day to God. (Unless you believe as Owen apparently did, that the day was from sunup to sundown.)


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## beej6 (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion./QUOTE]
> 
> This is backwards logic. I'm ashamed of many things I do. The question is what's permissible on Monday is not necessarily so on the Lord's Day.
> 
> ...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

beej6 said:


> Perhaps the attitude behind your statement "...long after corporate worship has been observed..." is an excellent argument for an evening worship service. But even if your church doesn't observe this, it doesn't remove the command of sanctifying the entire day to God. (Unless you believe as Owen apparently did, that the day was from sunup to sundown.)


How is it that you sanctify the day, being on the internet itself appears as though an indulgence of worldly recreation has been done or is it justified by being a Reformed message board?


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## caddy (Feb 4, 2007)

"Priceless"

with a negative spin !  



trevorjohnson said:


> A few years back I got invited to a Super Bowl party and when I said I didn't want to go, they asked why.
> 
> So I said that this had no place in the church.
> 
> ...


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## Laura (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> I look to Christ to fulfill the law perfectly, I don't understand how I can perfectly honor the day of rest as you prescribe here.
> 
> Do I need to read and discuss apologetics the whole day? Sing hymns in the shower and refrain from any escapist thoughts or conversation not emphasizing the sermon of the day? What standard is there for me, has Christ not come to fulfill what I cannot possibly satisfy?



Um. Check out Matthew 5:21-48. Especially 48. "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Christ's perfection on our behalf _does not_ excuse slothfulness any more than the perfection of the law drives those who truly hope in God to despair. In other words, the standard for us is the same as it was for Christ. Titus 2:11-15 says that He in fact gave himself "that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." Where do we learn what good works are? In the law of God.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

beej6 said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion./QUOTE]
> ...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Laura said:


> Um. Check out Matthew 5:21-48. Especially 48. "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Christ's perfection on our behalf _does not_ excuse slothfulness any more than the perfection of the law drives those who truly hope in God to despair.


I disagree, I am not endorsing slothful behavior, nor am I denying a day of rest.

These are the kind of issues that are not lynch pin essentials to the faith. I adhere to the doctrines of grace, I believe Christ alone can and has justified men and on this I find no room to waver or make exception, but with other issues I am open to discussion.

I admire much of the WCF but do not find it to be the inerrant line in the sand that defines all of Christendom so many would like it to be.

I am not fully convinced of covenantal theology either but I am not hostile toward it and empathize with both arguments.

I recognize that a Chrisitan can be a preterist, postmil, Dispensational and pan without sacrificing the essence of the gospel, some of those worldviews can be critiqued with close scrutiny but I do not see these as issues that cast doubt on salvation.

I think Reformed Christians rightfully get labeled as smarmy and haughty when we come out and declare our creeds are the best without exception or compromise even when issues are not pertaining to the sovereignty of God and salvation in Christ.

The sabbath is a day of rest, as a commandment it points me to Christ, He fulfills it in the perfect manner I cannot, I am not excused of disregarding it but I am blessed instead with the benefit of fellowship and worship with the saints this day and with a chance to relax from the stresses of the week.

Watching the Super Bowl with my friends has no bearing on my salvation nor sanctification.


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## Ravens (Feb 4, 2007)

No one is flatly condemning your religion in this thread. Sanctification is both practical and doctrinal, and we are all constantly growing and being pruned. I can only say that I have been where you are. When I first began to read this board, Sabbatarianism appeared to me as soul-killing. I chafed and squirmed against it. 

The Superbowl discussions were always particularly unnerving. It just seemed to me to be an unbelievable rigor. Through this board, and the historic resources that it pointed me to, I was persuaded of the importance of keeping the Lord's Day, and of a continuing weekly Sabbath. However, my praxis far lagged behind my doctrinal shift, and still does.

Last year I watched the Super Bowl. This year I won't be watching it, and I can honestly say that I won't miss it. However, I'm not as "into" the NFL, and I understand how it would exercise more of a "pull" over somebody who was an avid follower. Last week, though, I did pass on watching a Mountaineer (WVU) basketball game on Sunday afternoon (which is a passion of mine).

All that to say nothing, I suppose. I have very far to go in honoring the Lord's Day. And I understand your concerns about the internet, and about hypocrisy. I don't feel too bad about reading this particular board, but even that can be more for "entertainment" sometimes and less about learning. However, casual internet use for entertainment probably would be a lesser form of, indeed, watching the Superbowl.

I would imagine most Sabbatarians, especially us younger ones, while we are rigid on the doctrinal truth of the Lord's Day, are actually very candid about our failures to live up to it, since most of us were never raised that way. And I can't say that I've ever seen an old oak in the faith say that they kept it perfectly.

However, as we often tell Arminians, inability to keep a command does not remove the culpability attached to it's violation. So I strive to honor it as best as I can, and always go to bed thinking of a few clear instances where I simply failed to do so. 

But who knows? A year from now you might be saying the same things to someone else who is planning to enjoy Superbowl Sunday, while you yourself have grown in your understanding of doctrine. We all have a variety of flaws and stains in a variety of areas. And you are probably right in some areas that I am mistaken on.

I wouldn't take people disagreeing with you (not that you have) personally. As Luther says, Christianity consists of assertions. Certain positions are either right, or they are wrong. We can't both be right. And, if a continuing Lord's Day is true, then I would have to say that watching the Super Bowl is a flat violation of it.

It's not about recreation. It's about the entire country tuning in religiously to a gala spectacle of legitimate athleticism couched in ego, pride, hype, excessive marketing, pop culture, and lust. On the day set aside to honor the eternal God, 75% of the country will be fastened to this abomination, and see it as so self-evidently important that church services will be cancelled without question. All for a game. And if you believe in the Lord's Day, I think its a rather obvious choice whether or not to tune in to this Massive Nationwide Middle-Finger that we give to God's command.

However, I don't fault those who do watch... because many Reformed people just absolutely forget that God deals with people over time. We're not converted into a cappella, exclusive psalmody, papal antichrist Christian magistrate presuppositional covenanted Christians. It's all a process stemming from regeneration, and most of us have been where you are.

Take care.


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## Authorised (Feb 4, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> However, I don't fault those who do watch... because many Reformed people just absolutely forget that God deals with people over time. We're not converted into a cappella, exclusive psalmody, papal antichrist Christian magistrate presuppositional covenanted Christians. It's all a process stemming from regeneration, and most of us have been where you are.
> 
> Take care.




How condescending.


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## Davidius (Feb 4, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> No one is flatly condemning your religion in this thread. Sanctification is both practical and doctrinal, and we are all constantly growing and being pruned. I can only say that I have been where you are. When I first began to read this board, Sabbatarianism appeared to me as soul-killing. I chafed and squirmed against it.
> 
> The Superbowl discussions were always particularly unnerving. It just seemed to me to be an unbelievable rigor. Through this board, and the historic resources that it pointed me to, I was persuaded of the importance of keeping the Lord's Day, and of a continuing weekly Sabbath. However, my praxis far lagged behind my doctrinal shift, and still does.
> 
> ...



Excellent comments!


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

Treating the Super bowl as an idol is in the heart of the beholder. Spectators are not automatically feasting at a pagan altar. 

These are broad general strokes being painted by asserting as much.

I can misuse most anything, how is it that you sanctify this day without distraction and sport or fantasy or looking ahead in the week?

Is walking the dog, washing the car, looking at old photo albums, enjoying the pleasures of marital relations all in violation of this sanctity you have yet to define?

What is meant by rest if it is not peaceful relaxation and stress relief from our worries as well as an opportunity to fellowship? 

You make the sabbath sound like a chore rather than even a duty of community or moment of ordained peace.


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## JonathanHunt (Feb 4, 2007)

Authorised said:


> How condescending.



To be fair, I don't think it was intended to be. Our brother was making a point, not telling us that we all SHOULD be acapella, exclusive psalmodist yadda yadda...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 4, 2007)

JonathanHunt said:


> To be fair, I don't think it was intended to be. Our brother was making a point, not telling us that we all SHOULD be acapella, exclusive psalmodist yadda yadda...


The assertion is that sanctification would lead all men to these conclusions eventually and that only a less sanctified individual would think otherwise.


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## Ravens (Feb 4, 2007)

I didn't mean it to be condescending in the least. I only came to most of those positions in the past year, still have serious questions on some of them, and am not certain on others. I lean towards non-instrumental psalmody, but wouldn't swear that the "non-instrumental" or the "psalmody" part was right. It was just an example of relative "doctrinal maturity." And since this is a Reformed board, I picked a traditionally Reformed synopsis of "doctrinal maturity."

It was actually intended to make the opposite point, namely, that some Reformed Christians will talk till we are blue in the face about dealing with our sinful natures until death, and yet in the same breath be shocked when people don't have worship and the law of God completely fleshed out in their heads. In a sense it should be expected, and sometimes this board forgets that.

That's all I meant by it. I'm sure you're right on many things that I'm not. I'm a worm, and have made a few serious mistakes in the seven years I've been a Christian, that will forever prevent me from taking a "holier than thou" approach. If I ever seem to be putting myself forward as an example of flawless holiness, then rest assured, I've mis-typed.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 4, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> It is a day of rest free of the aggravations of work and toiling in worldly affairs but even Christ asserted not to ignore pressing matters on the sabbath so it could well be interupted by the world.
> 
> I do take Sunday off as a time to recharge and rest, it is usually one of the lone times of fellowship and recreation afforded to many believers as well.
> 
> ...



Indeed, none of us can even come close to perfectly honoring _any_ part of the Law. Laura has already expressed what I would have said regarding the implications that has for our natural and rightful delight in nonetheless _aiming_ at that throughout this life in the midst of our gradual sanctification, the Sabbath being just like the rest of the moral laws in that respect.

Regarding the seventh day still being the Sabbath versus the first day as the Lord's Day, I fully admit I still have yet to (and need to) exegetically or theologically study that particular of the commandment in much depth, and have thus far relied on the early and nearly universal conclusions, testimony and practice of the Church on that specific matter. Even so, that does not change the _principle_, and I certainly cannot see how that question of days could in any way imply or encourage a change in or neglect of the day's function and nature - especially since God's blessing of such a day in distinction from the others goes back to Genesis 2, before the Law of Moses was ever given.

Furthermore, I fully agree with you (as I'm sure all Sabbatarians here do) that one purpose of the Lord's Day is indeed so that we may be "free of the aggravations of work and toiling in worldly affairs." The same is true of us not being expected to "ignore pressing matters on the sabbath," and as such, "it could well be interupted by the world," indeed (as acknowledged by the WCF, calling such things "duties of necessity"). But don't you agree that something like the present practice under discussion (the Superbowl) is not in any way a _pressing matter_? Furthermore, in the same way, the view the Reformed confessions take on the Lord's Day really would not even see such an activity as _truly_ making us "_free_ of the aggravations of work and toiling in worldly affairs," either - since what ultimately gives us that type of freedom in the fullest sense is precisely the meditation on God and His acts, and the expression of that thanks by means of acts of mercy to our brethren.

As I was thinking when I replied to Scott above, I confess I so often do not view that as the truest _freedom_ when I'm tempted to watch a Bengals game or read about some new cigars on the Lord's Day. But that simply serves as another illustration of how we do not know what is best for us, what is our truest "freedom," and how even when we are reminded by God's Word, we continually forget it. And the devotion of the whole Lord's Day to worship, meditation on God, acts of mercy and acts of necessity as being the truest form of _freedom_ and _rest_ for us on that day is how the Reformed confessions and churches interpret the verse that reminds us that, indeed, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."


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## BJClark (Feb 4, 2007)

Personally, I could care less about a game, but I do enjoy the fellowship with family and friends getting together...be it on the Sabbath or any other day

Do you watch any TV on the Sabbath, even the News? 

Or do you read your bible and sing praises to God All day? 

How is posting here keeping with the Sabbath, enjoying your computer (a worldly recreation for some)? And how could it be construded as a lesser evil?

I mean, is it not taking away from your focus on God, as you believe the Sabbath to be about? I guess I am just perplexed over it all.


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## beej6 (Feb 5, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> How is it that you sanctify the day, being on the internet itself appears as though an indulgence of worldly recreation has been done or is it justified by being a Reformed message board?



There was a thread that discussed this here a few weeks ago, perhaps someone more handy than I am can post its link...

The internet is not sinful in itself, is it? I would justify its use by this being a place of orthodox belief and (virtual) fellowship.


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## beej6 (Feb 5, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Treating the Super bowl as an idol is in the heart of the beholder. Spectators are not automatically feasting at a pagan altar.
> 
> These are broad general strokes being painted by asserting as much.
> 
> ...



Travis, may I ask you a question related back to the earlier posts: Should a church sponsor or host a Super Bowl party? Why or why not?


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## BJClark (Feb 5, 2007)

beej6;




> The internet is not sinful in itself, is it? I would justify its use by this being a place of orthodox belief and (virtual) fellowship.



Nor is watching the Superbowl sinful in itself. And gathering together with other saints from a persons congregation for fellowship would basically be the same justification would it not? 

The only differences are those who gather in person can pray, break bread and have a deeper fellowship together before and during the game.

I'm not so sure about watching a game in the actual sancuary of a church gathering place, however, why not in a fellowship hall?

However, if your heart is convicted that it is a sin for you to gather with other saints and watch a foot ball game or another game on a Sunday, then for you it is a sin.

Romans 14:5-6, which states "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]." In other words, the non-Sabbatarian argument is founded upon the concept that anything which does not proceed from faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Ritual observance of a weekly Sabbath is thus not required. Nevertheless, if one believes they are sinning when they break the Sabbath, they are condemned; however if their conscience does not condemn them, they have done no wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 5, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Nor is watching the Superbowl sinful in itself. And gathering together with other saints from a persons congregation for fellowship would basically be the same justification would it not?



It would not be the same justification. The difference lies in _what is focused on_ during such fellowship (if asked what the fourth commandment includes, I would point to WCF 21 and WLC 115-121 with the Scripture proofs). Indeed, that is also the same reason I do things like get on the board yesterday; for what were we discussing then? God and His ways. I would not have talked about cigars, Prison Break or the Bengals on the board yesterday.


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## JasonGoodwin (Feb 5, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Watching the SuperBowl is a "worldly recreation" and, may be lawful on other days, but is a sin to do on the Lord's day.
> 
> Grace and Peace,
> 
> -CH



Do you want to throw in any other sporting event that falls on a Sunday as well? Most NFL games are played on Sundays. MLB (baseball for the non-North Americans) plays on most Sundays. Same for basketball and hockey (though not as much in hockey. The NHL has been doing what it can to limit games on Sundays. Not perfect, but they're not the NFL).


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 5, 2007)

Jason: This is not directed at you even though your question is most proximate.

One of the things that bothers me about this discussion by some is all the loopholism that is going on here. I'm reminded of a discussion that we had about the tithe months back where people are asking about whether or not we're required to give 10%.

We're in a period of redemptive history where we are supposed to be acting maturely. Children test boundaries. If you tell them what the line is, they want to walk up and dance on the line and then protest when they're disciplined: "I didn't walk over it...."

Principles of Sabbath rest are given so that we might grow in their observation. I like the way that Chris has expressed the uncomfortable nature of certain practices where you're trying to change the way you think/act. Maturity requires discipline. Godliness is not natural. When you're training for something it is harder. Your muscles are sore because you're doing something that you're unaccustomed to. After you've run for a while there is still a level of being uncomfortable but there is also trememdous pleasure in the doing of it after your body is in shape. Adding a few extra miles is a piece of cake if you're accustomed to running 6 per day.

Giving is the same thing. Tithing is very uncomfortable in practice at first but once it is a life habit, a request from the deacons for an extra-ordinary need does not seem to "hurt" so much because you're in the habit of giving. Indeed, one cannot give with delight unless trained to the point that our natrual selfishness is overcome.

The bottom line here is that there are some immature people here that ought to be learning in this thread instead of presuming to teach on the nature of God's commands. If ever we come to a command of God and have to ask for a million different variations and dance on the line then we have not even approached Scriptural wisdom. The case Law of the Old Testament was always meant to be applied with prudence and never so men could get away with doing their minimum.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 5, 2007)

beej6 said:


> Travis, may I ask you a question related back to the earlier posts: Should a church sponsor or host a Super Bowl party? Why or why not?


In a sanctuary I would not deem it appropriate because that is a house not specified for such plus I don't understand why a movie projector would be there with a cable connection anyhow.

If church members and elders met in picnic style at someone's home or in a fellowship hall or banquet setting I don't have a problem with it.

'Tis a footbal game and not burlesque, with the exception of poor halftime show choices, I never said bring the Super Bowl to church I said the believer was free to watch it however.


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