# Prayer and Omniscience



## Ravens (Nov 14, 2007)

Has anyone else ever had their prayers hindered due to confusion over the relationship of our prayers to God's omniscience? 

I know that a common "problem" among Reformed believers is the reconciliation of our prayers to God's sovereignty; but at least in my mind, that's not exactly the same issue that I am running up against. For instance, say Makebelieve Pollyanna at my church is suffering from an ailment, or spiritual depression, etc. The "sovereignty problem" would say, "I shouldn't pray, because God will do whatever He has ordained to do." But that response kind of "assumes" that, if the future wasn't already settled, it would still be appropriate to seek to ask for a particular resolution of the problem.

Obviously Scripture tells us to make our requests, but I'm running into some mental road blocks on this one. Namely, I don't know what God's purpose is in the suffering. That suffering could be deserved chastisement. It could be a help towards the crucifixion of the flesh. It could lead to the salvation of an unbelieving husband or child. Similarly, money and health might ruin someone, and confirm them in sin, and tend to their destruction.

I know that these facts are why we offer up all prayers with the qualifier, "If it be Thy will." 

I suppose I'm just wondering, why ask for health, financial blessing, etc., in the first place, if, in a fallen world, those things might very well be detrimental for the person. I suppose common sense and Scripture lists those things as "good" in and of themselves, and that's why we can pray for them, and leave it up to God to with-hold if they would work "bad" in the person.

But to me, it still doesn't solve the whole complex of issues. No matter what I pray for, I'm a very tiny speck who has limited information and only a tiny perspective into the Divine Mind, and not only is it not my place to seek to change it, but its really not even_ prudent_ or wise to assume my course of action would be better than His.

That being said, I suppose the simple solution is to recognize all that, and subordinate our prayers to the Divine will. But I'm having problems seeing how, in the end, that doesn't turn prayer into self-therapy. If I'm aware that my requests might be good or bad for the Kingdom, others, and myself, and that I myself am rather ignorant as to the whole ball of wax, and I'm hesitant to even offer prayers up, what would be the purpose of even offering them?

Say I have a sick friend, and there are twenty different medicines on the counter of which I know nothing. Only one will cure him, and the rest will instantly kill him. Of course I'll leave it in the hands of the Doctor to apply the right one, but if I am utterly ignorant as to the right medicine, why would I even offer any suggestion at all about which one to apply. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I would appreciate some good books on prayer. I seek to do it, but whenever I approach it, I am hit with a barrage of problems, whether its the relationship between prayer and sovereignty, or the relationship between prayer and omniscience, or the fact that, if I am not praying in full assurance of faith, I am a double minded man and should not expect to receive anything. I have a cold, sluggish spirit in prayer. Furthermore, I simply can't comprehend how people go through a "prayer list" and offer that up to God. Apparently its appropriate, but whenever I try to pray for the "needs" of my church, or six or seven individuals in a row, it becomes rote and, at least in my understanding, "vain babblings and many words". "Susie's back, Jack's child, Bob's car, etc., etc.". 

I'm sure the fault is in me, but when I think of all those issues, and then approach the Divine Mind with my perverted, dark, limited little spirit and attempt to converse with Him, it utterly baffles me. The first twenty minutes of my prayer usually becomes a "cloud of unknowing", as I just seek to be honest and communicate with the same thoughtfulness that I would use in communicating to another person. But so many philosophical and epistemological issues intrude, that I never feel like I've approximated Christian "prayer."

How do you be importunate and submissive? How long do you have to space out the same request before "many words" morphs into a good "importunate" spirit?

What's the best serious book on prayer you've ever read?

Anyway. Thoughts about prayer, whether they relate to omniscience or not, would be much appreciated.

Blessings in Christ


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## Gloria (Nov 14, 2007)

The only way that I've found to reconcile them is answered prayer as the means by which his will is accomplished. Does that make any sense? Am I wrong on this? I'm interested to see the responses to this thread. I totally see where you are coming from though.


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 14, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> Anyway. Thoughts about prayer, whether they relate to omniscience or not, would be much appreciated.
> 
> Blessings in Christ



Joshua:

We need to have an eternal perspective when it comes to prayer. Not only thinking how this will affect the immediacy of our situation. Paul is a master at this heavenly hope in prayer. Yet he still new his earthly purpose God had ordained for him. 

Colossians 4:2-3 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful. And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel. 

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 

If anyone "knew" the divine mind, it was Paul. Yet he prayed constantly. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


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## KMK (Nov 15, 2007)

It sounds to me like your struggle comes from trying to pray too much from an eternal perspective. When the Bible teaches about assurance and perserverance it teaches about God's sovereignty in predestination. But when the Bible teaches about prayer it teaches about relationships such as fathers and sons; kings and servants. Of course we know that He purposed before all things that shall come to pass, but it is not with this mindset that we come to him in prayer. The reality is that we must live our lives out in time and place and while we acknowledge that the Lord is working His secret will in the background we must still experience life. This living out of our lives from a temporal perspective is just as important as looking at life from an eternal perspective. Both are major themes in the Bible and to allow one perspective to dominate the other leads to frustration. (I am sure we all know some who give no thought to an eternal perspective and their ensuing frustration) Perhaps one could say that we need to always have one eye on the eternal and one eye on the temporal and let neither grow dim, but instead, strengthen them both.

I am currently listening to a free audio version of Edwards' "Religious Affections" from christianaudio.com which has been very edifying in regards to the 'affections' that motivate us to pray. 

And my final : you wrote:



> How do you be importunate and submissive?



According to Luke 11, by being importunate you *are *being submissive. We are 'commanded' to pray with importunity.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 15, 2007)

A few random thoughts from reading the O.P.

"Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God, for things agreeable to his will, in the name of Christ, with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgments of his mercies." - _The Shorter Catechism_

Since God does all things after the counsel of his will, our prayers are part of "all things" and that is why we need God's direction in our prayers.

When it comes to "if it be thy will", it may help to confess in our prayers that these things are the desires of our heart knowing that God will do what is for his glory, for the good of his people, and it is always right because God is righteous.

Paul says something significant regarding Epaphroditus who was "sick unto death" but "God had mercy on him ..." (Philippians 2:25-30). It seems appropriate to cry out for God's mercy on those for whom we pray. Knowing that God sovereignly directs the steps of men (including non-believers) and that he ordinarily uses means, we should ask him to give wisdom and skill to those attending and assisting people who are sick. Part of that would be determining the right medicine. 



JDWiseman said:


> ... What's the best serious book on prayer you've ever read? ...


 
A Method for Prayer, with Scripture Expressions: Directions for Daily Communion with God, by Matthew Henry. Actually better as a resource.


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## Pergamum (Nov 15, 2007)

The big question is not so much, "If God is sovereign why pray:

The really BIG question is, "If God is not sovereign, why bother!" Why pray for what God cannot do anyhow!


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 15, 2007)

KMK said:


> It sounds to me like your struggle comes from trying to pray too much from an eternal perspective. When the Bible teaches about assurance and perserverance it teaches about God's sovereignty in predestination. But when the Bible teaches about prayer it teaches about relationships such as fathers and sons; kings and servants. Of course we know that He purposed before all things that shall come to pass, but it is not with this mindset that we come to him in prayer. The reality is that we must live our lives out in time and place and while we acknowledge that the Lord is working His secret will in the background we must still experience life. This living out of our lives from a temporal perspective is just as important as looking at life from an eternal perspective. Both are major themes in the Bible and to allow one perspective to dominate the other leads to frustration. (I am sure we all know some who give no thought to an eternal perspective and their ensuing frustration) Perhaps one could say that we need to always have one eye on the eternal and one eye on the temporal and let neither grow dim, but instead, strengthen them both.
> 
> I am currently listening to a free audio version of Edwards' "Religious Affections" from christianaudio.com which has been very edifying in regards to the 'affections' that motivate us to pray.
> 
> ...



Isnt it amazing how 2 people can read the saem scriptures and speak completely opposite!!!! I say we need more of an eternal perspective, you say we dont.


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