# Total depravity...???



## tdowns (Jun 11, 2007)

I have a question, someone brought up in Sunday School, about Total Depravity? 

If, no one seeks God, no not one, and without Regeneration, we would never choose God, even if we saw miracles, etc....then, why does the Lord use examples (I can't find any right now) like.....If these people would have seen these miracles, they would have repented, or if I would have gone in this city, they would have repented, etc......implying that, God withheld himself from these people, so that they would not know God, but, if Total Depravity is true, God would not need to withhold anything (but Regeneration), he could be there, show his power, miracles, etc., and the reprobate would Hate God anyway, without regeneration......so he may choose not to go there, but what is the purpose of those scriptures, that seem to imply, that God withheld signs and wonders, so they would not believe, if in fact, Total Depravity, says we all would not believe anyway, unless Born from Above....regenerated????

if that makes sense.....

I need to find the scripture references........Help!


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## eternallifeinchrist (Jun 11, 2007)

I think the questioners are trying to look backwards when the Scriptures are possibly looking forward. "If these people would have seen these miracles, they would have repented," Like, if God would have revealed himself to them, then he would also have wanted to regenerate some of them to believe. Apparently God knew that "these people" were not chosen because he did show them the miracles. If your not a Calvinist then my reasoning won't make sense. "I would have gone in this city, they would have repented, etc......" seems to imply that if God would have gone into the city, then someone there was chosen and would believe... they are all totally depraved. Yet, saved people are totally depraved too...right? So, our salvation does not depend on not being totally depraved. Did I say that right? Is this more about limited atonement?


tdowns007 said:


> I have a question, someone brought up in Sunday School, about Total Depravity?
> 
> If, no one seeks God, no not one, and without Regeneration, we would never choose God, even if we saw miracles, etc....then, why does the Lord use examples (I can't find any right now) like.....If these people would have seen these miracles, they would have repented, or if I would have gone in this city, they would have repented, etc......implying that, God withheld himself from these people, so that they would not know God, but, if Total Depravity is true, God would not need to withhold anything (but Regeneration), he could be there, show his power, miracles, etc., and the reprobate would Hate God anyway, without regeneration......so he may choose not to go there, but what is the purpose of those scriptures, that seem to imply, that God withheld signs and wonders, so they would not believe, if in fact, Total Depravity, says we all would not believe anyway, unless Born from Above....regenerated????
> 
> ...


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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 11, 2007)

The answer lies in the fact that God uses MEANS to effect his eternal purposes. He doesn't just operate on the basis of some schematic diagram of his decree. HISTORY is his decree, every little piece of it.

The testimony of Jesus (Mt. 11:21) that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had the miracles done in Chorazin and Bethsaida been done there, is as true a statement as ever he spoke, and he should know. It was a portion of judgment against those places that they were not shown such a testimony as Jesus miracles. And moreover, it testified to the _worse spiritual condition_ of these Galilean towns, that though they were not hotbeds of hmsx and other immoral behavior and gross forms of idolatry, still they were nests of hypocrisy.

A more damning indictment was never pressed.


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## tdowns (Jun 12, 2007)

*Thanks.....*

Interesting.......thanks.....


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## Arch2k (Jun 12, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> The answer lies in the fact that God uses MEANS to effect his eternal purposes. He doesn't just operate on the basis of some schematic diagram of his decree. HISTORY is his decree, every little piece of it.
> 
> The testimony of Jesus (Mt. 11:21) that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had the miracles done in Chorazin and Bethsaida been done there, is as true a statement as ever he spoke, and he should know. It was a portion of judgment against those places that they were not shown such a testimony as Jesus miracles. And moreover, it testified to the _worse spiritual condition_ of these Galilean towns, that though they were not hotbeds of hmsx and other immoral behavior and gross forms of idolatry, still they were nests of hypocrisy.
> 
> A more damning indictment was never pressed.


 
 Great post as usual. I was always taught that God ordains the ends as well as the means.


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## tdowns (Jun 18, 2007)

*Applies here as well?*

The Purpose of the Parables

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

So, in regards to Total Depravity, this in no way teaches against that?

Does this verse, imply, taken alone, that all men, have the ability to turn and be forgiven.....if it does, what's our rationale, same as above?

It just seems to imply, that, all men are capable of turning and being forgiven, so parables must be used.....and so....A PROBLEM WITH TOTAL DEPRAVITY?

Does this--

"The testimony of Jesus (Mt. 11:21) that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had the miracles done in Chorazin and Bethsaida been done there, is as true a statement as ever he spoke, and he should know. It was a portion of judgment against those places that they were not shown such a testimony as Jesus miracles. And moreover, it testified to the worse spiritual condition of these Galilean towns, that though they were not hotbeds of hmsx and other immoral behavior and gross forms of idolatry, still they were nests of hypocrisy."

--cover it?

I'm in discussions my Sunday School class, working through T.U.L.I.P., and it's great, helping me to understand them more, and also opening the door into confessions, and why they are important.


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## VaughanRSmith (Jun 18, 2007)

tdowns007 said:


> The Purpose of the Parables
> 
> 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that
> 
> ...


Well, another question would be to ask why the people cannot hear or understand. Where does their inability to understand the parables stem from?


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## Greg (Jun 18, 2007)

tdowns007 said:


> The Purpose of the Parables
> 
> 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that
> 
> ...



Hi Trevor,

Keep in mind that one of the most fundamental and essential rules for interpreting all of Scripture is that the explicit must always interpret the implicit. At now point can we impose the reverse lest we pit Scripture against Scripture. 

One book on hermeneutics that I read pointed out that if just this one rule were consistently applied at all times, we wouldn't have quite the number of doctrinal divisions that we have within the church.

The same One who said that "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him", also said "who ever comes to me I will never cast out". Neither of these two statements from Christ conflict with one another. The first statement _explicitly_ addresses sinful man's spiritual inability, the second does not. Many want to assume that man's natural ability is _implied_ in the latter statement (and others just like it), and insist that the former statement must be interpreted according to that assumption. That's the error of Arminianism.

Reactions: Like 1


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## tdowns (Jun 19, 2007)

*Thanks.....*

Yeah, that's a great point, one I was making with him, that we need to take the entire realm of scripture, and also, this is the transition I'm using to highlight the confessions, that, as we strive to put it all in "context", it's important, we have a foundation, of doctrines, painstakingly, written out, for us to submit to, while we come to understand the bible in context.

People are just so resistant, they want to have their own little bible and me beliefs......This is the last week, that I have a teacher teaching T.U.L.I.P. Next up, through the Heidelberg Cat.....


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