# 2 Cor 2:14



## ReformedWretch (Jul 10, 2005)

But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere.

I really need to concentrate on passages such as this to over come a pretty big pessimistic attitude I tend to have. It may be all those years as a Premill believer that made me this way, but it's hard to over come!

One of my biggest hopes is to become much more optimistic.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 10, 2005)

Here's some - hopefully - encouragement from the Scriptures regarding the dominion of Christ on earth and the spread of the gospel (and why I, being such a pessimistic and cynical person, am Postmil):




> I saw in the night visions,
> and behold, with the clouds of heaven
> there came one like a son of man,
> and he came to the Ancient of Days
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Jul 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere.
> 
> I really need to concentrate on passages such as this to over come a pretty big pessimistic attitude I tend to have. It may be all those years as a Premill believer that made me this way, but it's hard to over come!
> ...



Most optimistimills I know hold to suffering unto victory; I cherish passages like the above one.


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## Robin (Jul 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Here's some - hopefully - encouragement from the Scriptures regarding the dominion of Christ on earth and the spread of the gospel (and why I, being such a pessimistic and cynical person, am Postmil):
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh! But THESE are why I'm Amill, Gabe!!  Plus...

Revelation 1:6-7
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.

r.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 10, 2005)

> Revelation 1:6-7
> To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.



Yes, this passage was beautifully fulfilled in A.D. 70. :bigsmile:


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## RamistThomist (Jul 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



But not every generation has seen the Son in the flesh; not every generation has pierced him; therefore....


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## Robin (Jul 11, 2005)

> Revelation 1:6-7
> To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.
> r.



But not every generation has seen the Son in the flesh; not every generation has pierced him; therefore.... [/quote]

Do I dare take the bait?

(God help me) I will attempt to rightly divide God's Holy Revelation....

Note, the "He is coming" part has no periods, all the contents happen simultaneously. This supports O.N.E. Second Advent - that is visible, public and universal. "Coming with clouds...every eye will see him" ...i.e. NOBODY will miss it or misunderstand what it is. Not a problem when adding "those who pierced him" and "all tribes of the earth"....."all" meaning ALL. This language speaks of the final judgment. *The* Day of the Lord. How do we know this??? Continue to read the book all the way through without stopping. Why? Because it is a LETTER that was proclaimed/spoken/read, outloud, all the way through without stopping (original intention of the author.)

Attention, Class --- do not yank verses out of context! 

The simplicity of the Biblical view is: when Christ appears, He will: raise the dead; judge the wicked; make all things new.



r.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm not biting...


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 11, 2005)

Jesus "came on the clouds" in a.d. 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. The phrase "coming on the clouds" is a prophetic phrase signifying the Lord coming in judgment through some means (i.e. not a visible appearance of God in any form, but His judgment coming in some manner).

Check out Matthew 24, which is obviously speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem (read Matt 23-24 in context and you will see this) and the Temple and it's order/system/age, and the same phrase is used:

*Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.*

This is the same "coming" that Revelation 1:6-7 is speaking about.

SO, how does the Bible speak about God in relation to clouds? Gary DeMar writes:



> First, God showed Himself by the physical presence of clouds, although no one ever saw Him (e.g., Ex. 13:21; 14:24; 19:9; 20:21; 24:15; 33:9; 34:5; 1 Kings 8:12). Second, God's abode is described as a canopy of clouds (Psalm 97:2). Third, God's mode of transportation is figuratively described as a cloud chariot (104:3). Fourth, when God speaks, "He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth" (Jer. 10:13; 51:16). Fifth, the "day of the LORD ... will be a day of clouds" (Ezek. 30:3; Joel 2:2). Sixth, God's judgment of the wicked is described as the upheaval of the created order: "In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet" (Nahum 1:3). In each of the above symbols, clouds are symbols of God's presence.
> 
> In addition, there are verses which describe God "_coming_ on the clouds":
> 
> ...



The context of Revelation 1:6-7, using _Sola Scriptura_, is Jesus being exalted as King over all the nations and being given dominion over all the kingdoms and peoples of the earth. Jesus "coming on the clouds" is symbolic of not only His exaltation as King, but His power and coming judgment upon apostate Judaism and particularly upon Jerusalem.

To clarify more, DeMar comments further:



> At His ascension, Jesus had come up to the Ancient of Days "with the clouds of heaven" to receive the kingdom from His Father (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9). Jesus' reception of the kingdom gave Him possession so that He could do with it as He pleased. He had earlier stated that the kingdom would be "taken away from" those who rejected Him and would "be given to a nation producing the fruit of it" (Matt 21:43).



Who are the people John describes as, *"every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him"*?

The rendering "all tribes of the earth" is not as accurate as possible for us to determine who is being spoken of here. We must cross-reference with Matt. 24 and also look to the Greek words used. DeMar writes of this:



> The "coming" of "the Son of Man" is most often taught as a worldwide event since Jesus states that "all the tribes of the _earth_ will mourn" (Matt. 24:30). Again, most Bible translations do not capture the true meaning of the Greek. A better translation is "tribes of the land," indicating that the event is restricted to Israel since Israel is the topic of discussion. The Greek word often translated "earth" can also be translated "soil" (Matt. 13:5,8,23), "ground" or "dirt" (25:25), "land" (countryside: 27:45), "Earth" (world: 16:10), or the "land of Israel" (2:6, 20-21), depending on the context. Since "tribes" is used in conjunction with land in Matthew 24:30, "land [of Judea]" is the best translation.



So, how can we be sure that this means the tribes of Israel and not tribes of the earth? Context, of course. Matthew 24, along with Revelation 1, is not describing events leading up to the end of the world, but the "end of the age." The word "kosmos" is not used in Matt. 24, "aion" is, meaning "age." The end of the Old Covenant age is being spoken of in both contexts, with Christ being brought His place of dominion following His ascension into heaven (coming on the clouds; cg. Dan 7 again), NOT the "end of the world," a concept foreign to Scripture. Jesus' disciples are asking Him about the end of the age, NOT the end of the world. Context, context, context.

Also, using _Sola Scriptura_, we can see clearly that the audience being referred to in both passages is those in Jerusalem, that generation that would not "pass away until all these things took place." Consider:

*Zech 12:10 "œAnd I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.*

It is very clear from Scripture that those who looked upon Christ and mourned and those who pierced Him are the generation that both Jesus and John refer to, both quoting Old Testament prophecy. The same generation that would "not pass away" before "all things" take place; that is, all the things Christ describes in Matt. 24's Olivet Discourse. Either Christ is a *liar*, or futurists and non-preterists have their timetables completely wrong.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 11, 2005)

Um, what he said.


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## Robin (Jul 12, 2005)

How many ages are there in Redemptive history, Gabe?



R.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)

Paul and the NT as a whole speaks much to the "end of the age," in reference to the end of the Levitical order of Moses and the beginning of the priesthood of Christ in its consummated form. There is the age prior to Christ's coming and the age following it. Moses, Abraham, and David looked forward to the promise's consummation, we look backwards to it.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)

> And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:32)
> 
> who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (Galatians 1:4)
> 
> ...


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## Robin (Jul 12, 2005)

So, how many ages are there? Two?


r.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)

Broadly speaking, there is the present age and the age to come (eternity). But, within the "present age" there are different administrations of the age. Surely you wouldn't say that the Old Covenant times were the same, redemptive-historically speaking, as the present time with the consummation of the New Covenant in Christ? I know you are trying to say that Postmillennialism/Preterism demands more than 2 ages (ala Strimple's argument), but that simply isn't the case.


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## Robin (Jul 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Broadly speaking, there is the present age and the age to come (eternity). But, within the "present age" there are different administrations of the age. Surely you wouldn't say that the Old Covenant times were the same, redemptive-historically speaking, as the present time with the consummation of the New Covenant in Christ? I know you are trying to say that Postmillennialism/Preterism demands more than 2 ages (ala Strimple's argument), but that simply isn't the case.



Well, this is probably a different thread...but I'd say (politely) prove it...I mean, please explain what an age IS and how there are more than two (from Scripture.) That's the fair thing, I think. It's what we ask the Dispensationalists to do...

Get ready...it's going to come up again....



r.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)

I said there were only two.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)

Can _you_ explain to me how Christ and the apostles are not liars, when they repeatedly emphasize the nearness of the Son of Man coming on clouds, the consummation of the ages being during their lives, the end of the age having already come upon them, in their lives, etc.?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 12, 2005)




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## Robin (Jul 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Can _you_ explain to me how Christ and the apostles are not liars, when they repeatedly emphasize the nearness of the Son of Man coming on clouds, the consummation of the ages being during their lives, the end of the age having already come upon them, in their lives, etc.?



Yes. But we have to use care and take each instance in context. For now though, imagine this....

Christ's incarnation inaugurates the Age to Come as it overlaps with the Present Evil Age. How? One great example is the Transfiguration - an "inbreaking" of the Kingdom by the glorified Christ; another is Stephen's moment of death as he is in the Spirit and sees Christ in the heavenly realm (Acts 7:55) The "coming in clouds...right hand of God" phrases are motifs that point to the Kingdom appearing in human history (many OT references) AND also they point to the ultimate Lord's Day. 

You probably won't buy this...but there is much Scriptural support (especiallly in the OT) that the Ages do overlap. The moment the Reality appeared (Christ's incarnation) THAT was the change; the Kingdom was literally "at the hand"....which is why Jesus could claim the Isaiah verse in the synagogue. Christ, the Second Adam, was subtly reversing the curse via His miracles punctuated by his death/resurrection. Christ, is called the "first fruit" of the harvest because the harvest has already begun at his resurrection.

Of course, there's much more to this...



r.


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## Robin (Jul 13, 2005)

I forgot a former point....


The destruction of Israel and her temple was the mere outward expression of the judgment that had already taken place at Christ's death, resurrection and at Pentacost. Israel's rejection of Jesus sealed their fate as a nation (Matt. 23:29-38)

Pentecost, as we recall, is a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy of the destruction of the old world and the emergence of a new order.

Why does this get neglected?



r.

[Edited on 7-13-2005 by Robin]


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## RamistThomist (Jul 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> I forgot a former point....
> 
> 
> ...



So far so good.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> I forgot a former point....
> 
> 
> ...



Robin,

Is not the End of the Age (or period of time) Jesus was talking about in Matt 24 the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy and the destruction of Jerusalem in about 70 A.D.?

It seems that is what Gabe is saying, and the age we are now in is the Gospel age. Maybe there are some over lapping ages because of when they start and end but generations also overlap. This is just an educated guess.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

See my reply in this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=12019


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 15, 2005)

I didn't see that. It looks like I understood you and agree somewhat. Mark it down.


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