# A minister and a magistrate



## mvdm (May 26, 2010)

A riveting 9 minute video of minister Dr. Peter Hammonds recounting his meeting with Nelson Mandela. Fascinating on 2 levels: first, the exposure of Mandela's evil policies, and second, the minister's courage in speaking God's truth directly to Mandela and the persecution that followed:

YouTube - Dr. Peter Hammond (2 of 2) My meeting with Nelson Mandela


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## Pergamum (May 27, 2010)

Sounds like a Knox and Queen Mary moment.


Although, I will just lob this out...

To a South African black, Apartheid just might seem a greater evil than communism. Especially if they do not know God and see armed resistance, or even terrorism, as a legitimate means of acquiring freedom/independance.

Nelson Mandela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Questions:
How accurate is this wicki? Can you provide other resources to get both sides of the story? When Mandela wanted freedom, did he engage in military action aimed towards military and gov'tal targets only? Or did he target civilians? What was Mandela's role in the necklacing of victims? Did he consent, support, or try to stop this practice? Did the white gov't also engage in atrocities? What is the US gov't stance on Mandela? What do you think of his efforts at reconciliation? Has he changed his beliefs or practices over the years? Why the positive press about him?

It is said that Mandela is the "prime mover of the legalisation of abortion, p0rnography, gambling and homosexuality in South Africa and of the introduction of sex education in public schools." But every liberal gov't, in the US and Europe has followed the same course of action. 

I would like to read more, can you link me to resources?

---------- Post added at 08:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 AM ----------

BBC News | The Winnie Mandela Trial | Profile of Winnie Mandela

This seems to show his wife in a pretty bad light, she sounds ruthless.


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## Willem van Oranje (May 27, 2010)

The more I see what is going on in South Africa, the more I come to the conclusion that Mandela and his crew ruined a great nation.


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## mvdm (May 27, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> Sounds like a Knox and Queen Mary moment.
> 
> 
> Although, I will just lob this out...
> ...


 
Pergamum:

I don't know enough to answer each of your questions, but based on the Wiki entry alone, there is plenty corroboration of his terrorist activities which took the lives of innocent civilians. His guilty plea establishes his guilt. The one reference in the Wiki entry that appears inaccurate is labeling him a "political prisoner". Mandela forfeited that claim when he pled guilty and was given a life sentence. {Kalik Sheik Mohammed views himself purely a political prisoner of the United States but that doesn't make it so.} Whether Mandela was involved in "necklacing" is of little consequence at this point. 

So while it may be important to historical understanding, I do not think the comparative degree of evil of apartheid vis a vis Mandela's pagan communism is the key issue. Rather it is the lesson this should teach the church. Here we have a pagan ruler openly defying the law of God and a minister of the gospel, upon pain of persecution, directly calls this man to repentance. While some Lutheran-esque theories of the church's gospel ministry build safe, pretty, and impermeable fences between the church and the magistrate, I contend Dr. Hammond's courageous example is the confessionally faithful one. The church in America needs to wake up to the danger that she is losing her saltiness in the world.


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## SolaScriptura (May 27, 2010)

Is Mandela even relevant anymore?


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## sastark (May 27, 2010)

mvdm said:


> While some Lutheran-esque theories of the church's gospel ministry build safe, pretty, and impermeable fences between the church and the magistrate, I contend Dr. Hammond's courageous example is the confessionally faithful one. The church in America needs to wake up to the danger that she is losing her saltiness in the world.


 

May I please quote you on that? I'd like to post the link to this video on my Facebook and would love to include your quote, with your permission.


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## mvdm (May 27, 2010)

sastark said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > While some Lutheran-esque theories of the church's gospel ministry build safe, pretty, and impermeable fences between the church and the magistrate, I contend Dr. Hammond's courageous example is the confessionally faithful one. The church in America needs to wake up to the danger that she is losing her saltiness in the world.
> ...



Feel free.


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## Willem van Oranje (May 28, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> Sounds like a Knox and Queen Mary moment.
> 
> 
> Although, I will just lob this out...
> ...


 
Forgive me for being a little ignorant, obtuse, and counter-cultural, but what exactly was "evil" about apartheid? How does an aboriginal native population automatically gain a right to vote and be accorded full citizenship status in a civilization which they did not found or create, such as was the Afrikaner and Anglo-African cape nation, especially when they had no historical or cultural background to prepare them for such participation? This is not seem much different than the Indian reservation system in the U. S., except that the South Africans had to take extra precautions since they were such a numeric minority.


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## Pergamum (May 28, 2010)

Riley: If you don't believe that racial segregation is evil or that colonialism is all bliss, we need to start a separate thread. I also think that the Africans were probably in Africa a long time before the Afrikaners.


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## Willem van Oranje (May 29, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> Riley: If you don't believe that racial segregation is evil or that colonialism is all bliss, we need to start a separate thread. I also think that the Africans were probably in Africa a long time before the Afrikaners.


 
Broad statements. Mine was a specific question, not a broad statement or principle. I do not, however, believe that just because the Afrikaner's ancestors had immigrated to the African continent at a relatively later date, therefore the tribal Africans had more rights to the entire continent and the Afrikaner who have been there for generations have none. Under this logic we would have to all go back to the lands of our Anscestors, me to Germany, my wife to the Philippines, etc. I hope someone does start another thread, but 'twill not be I.


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## Pergamum (May 29, 2010)

Here's a depressing link about the South African rape crisis: South Africa's Rape Crisis: 1 in 4 Men Say They've Done It - TIME


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## py3ak (May 29, 2010)

Your link made me think of this link.

As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God | Matthew Parris - Times Online


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