# BLASPHEMY! HERESY! U NAME IT!



## default (Jun 30, 2005)

I received this email and am so flabergasted I don't know where to begin to unravel it!

Quote:

Personal Saviour ?



Acts 4.10-12: "Peter said that the whole house of ISRAEL must understand that he had healed a cripple by the power of Jesus - no mention of a personal saviour, but he did say that the rejected Jesus is the Head [the external angle] of the corner - the Cornerstone, and that there is no other Name by which we [Israelites] must be saved. Again no personal Saviour for you. Acts 2.36-38: Again Peter tells the whole House of Israel to acknowledge that Jesus is both Lord [Son of God] and Christ, the Messiah. [the answer to Who is He? but nothing about a personal Saviour.] After they did that and were cut to the heart, Peter ordered the multitude to repent and purpose to stop rejecting the WILL of God, and be baptized, every one of them, in the Name of Jesus Christ [whom Peter has just said is Messiah and God] with a view to the remission of their sins, corporately, as part of the Body, NT Israel.. [redemption is of the Body] Acts 2.21: "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Peter did not command the "whosoever" to ask Jesus for forgiveness of sins, or to take Jesus for a personal Saviour from sin.

1Timothy 1.1: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our [not individual] Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;" [Mary is the only person ever recorded by God as saying "God is MY Saviour."]

1Tim 1.15: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners [corporately, not individually, see v.1&2 "our Father"&"our Lord", v.12&14 "our Lord"]; of whom I am chief [sinner in church]."

1Tim 1.3,7,11: "Charge some that they teach no other doctrine." Paul´s doctrine is supreme.

1Tim.1.16: "them which should hereafter believe on Him [obey] to life everlasting.

John 6.51-58: I am the LIVING BREAD [Jesus, Messiah, came in the flesh] which came down from heaven: if any man eat of THIS BREAD [My flesh], he SHALL live for ever: and the bread that I WILL give is My flesh, which I WILL give for the LIFE of the WORLD. 53 Then Jesus said unto the Jews, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye EAT the flesh of the Son of man [Mary´s Son], and DRINK His blood, ye have NO LIFE in you. [No mention of believing anything, except what He just said, and there was no written New Testament then.]

54 Whoso EATS My flesh, and DRINKS My blood, HATH eternal life; and I WILL raise him up at the last day. 55 For My FLESH is meat indeed, and My BLOOD is drink indeed. 56 He that EATS My FLESH, and DRINKS My BLOOD, dwelleth IN ME, and I IN him. 57 As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so [in the same way] he that EATS ME, even he shall LIVE by Me. [Christ obeys the Living Father and LIVES, and similarly we must obey the Living Christ in order to LIVE.] [Nothing about personal saviour]

58 THIS [Jesus] is that BREAD which came down from heaven:. . : he that EATS of THIS BREAD [the flesh of Jesus the Son of Mary] SHALL LIVE for ever. [It cannot be claimed that we have only to believe what Jesus spoke to be in Him and live forever. The words He said MUST be OBEYED by us, the same as the words His Father said were OBEYED by Jesus.]

2Tim.1.10: "But is now made manifest by the appearing of OUR [corporate - not personal] Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought Life and immortality to light through the gospel:" [By EATING Him in the eucharist, as I have just shown from John ch.6.]

2Thess.3.18: "The grace of OUR [corporate] Lord Jesus Christ be with you all [the CHURCH]

Acts 13.23: "Of this man´s seed hath God according to His PROMISE raised unto ISRAEL a Saviour, Jesus." [God´s promise was to raise up a Saviour unto ISRAEL, the NT Church. His promise was not to individuals who broke away at the Reformation. To be truly saved we must be IN THE CHURCH which is the BODY OF Christ, not part of the Anti-Christ.]

Ephesians 5.23: "For the husband is the head [source of woman´s physical life] of the wife, even as Christ is the head [source of spiritual life] of the church: and He is the Saviour of the body. [i.e. He is not our personal Saviour - No one but MARY was ever saved personally.].

Phil.3.20: "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence we look for the Saviour, the L.JC:

Titus 1.4: "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: [So Titus probably called Paul Father] Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ OUR Saviour."

Titus 2.13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and OUR Saviour Jesus Christ." [Christ is the Saviour of the BODY corporately, not personally.]

Titus 3.6: "Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;" [as members of the Body, the Church, but not as a personal Saviour for individuals apart from Christ´s Church.]

2Pet.1.10,11: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. [So as to gain entrance into everlasting life, we must DO as Jesus said in John 6.51-58 as above.]

2Pet. 2.20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the [not "their", NOT personal] Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, [so the saved can be overcome, as my eldest son was] the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." [Peter, the Chief Apostle, speaks in Christ´s stead.]

Phil.4.2-23: "I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life, [Is this an example of Paul´s forgiving sins and using the apostolic power of the KEYS to announce whose names are in the Book of Life?] in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God [by an intercessor?]

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you. [The RC Church is called the Church of God´s Peace]

20 Now unto God and OUR Father be glory for ever and ever. [corporately glorifying God.]

21 Salute every saint IN Christ Jesus. [Christ said JOHN 6.56 He that EATS My FLESH, and DRINKS My BLOOD, dwelleth IN ME, and I IN him. So this church obeys Him in that.]

23 The grace of OUR Lord Jesus Christ be with YOU ALL. [This was the CHURCH at Philippi where Lydia and the Jailor were]

Answers in general: The Beatitudes are NOT Moses Decalogue, which was and is abolished.

Matt.15.3-9 - The Traditions of the apostles are NOT the traditions of men, but are the spoken Words and commandments of Christ.. The traditions of the Reformers are traditions of men.

The Athanasian Creed [bought from Guido´s Reformed Bookshop] says -Paragraph 1. "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." The last Paragraph reads: "This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." One thing it says we must believe is that OUR Lord Jesus Christ is Man because He received the substance of His mother, born in the world. Love Rona. So don´t say that we don´t have to be in the Apostolic Church to be saved.

& Quote



This came to me from someone who, upon first introducing herself to me, seemed to have truth. She's in her 70's and thus is having a hard time accepting any correction from me, who, according to her "has swallowed the doctrines of man." And that I'm out of line to try to give her the truth. 



How do you unravel such a MESS and lie? or do you walk away? (after all, Christ didn't chase after those that walked away from him.


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 30, 2005)

Sounds like what the FED VIS guys are saying:



> corporately, not individually


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## default (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott, I agree. However, the person who sent this, and believes this, is in Australia.

I'm finding that the US is one of the most conservative countries still in existance. Such a frightening thought!


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jun 30, 2005)

Sounds Roman to me. Am I wrong?


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## default (Jun 30, 2005)

nope! Thats exactly what she and her adult son are looking to get into, Roman Catholicism...


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## Poimen (Jun 30, 2005)

Though the Church is important, it is still necessary to individually believe to be saved (note all the singular references in the following verse; they could be multiplied):

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

John 7:37 "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

John 8:51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Romans 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jun 30, 2005)




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## Michael Butterfield (Jun 30, 2005)

I think it would be disarming to suggest that as for the church, we would agree that there is no salvation outside of it. The WCF 25.II. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation. Of course, the WCF is only picking up the same idea that we find in the Institutes.


> John Calvin "“ I shall start, then, with the church, into whose bosom God is pleased to gather his sons, not only that they may be nourished by her help and ministry as long as they are infants and children, but also that they may be guided by her motherly care until they mature and at last reach the goal of faith."¦for those to whom [God] is Father the church may also be Mother.
> 
> Institutes, IV.i.i.



There are always the covenantal elements that could be addressed. In one sense there is a covenantal communional element to those references that are sighted. They are addressing the covenant community in the various epistles. I would be quick to add, however, that I have no affinities with the FV/NPP/AV/S theologies of today. I am only trying to underline that the broader evangelical church has so diminished the references to the church gathered that the importance of the church has been pushed to the outer edges of any good ecclesiology. The WCF and Calvin cannot be disregarded.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jun 30, 2005)

Michael, I don't think she is quite getting at the same concept as the WCF and Calvin. There's a *huge* difference between saying "no one individual can be saved by Christ" and "salvation cannot occur outside of Christ."


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## openairboy (Jun 30, 2005)

Honestly, I don't see any blasphemy in this stringing together of Scriptures. Could you see an Israelite coming up out of Egypt saying, "YHWH is my personal savior, would you (Egyptians) like to make him yours?"

I don't believe you can have eternal life outside of Mother Kirk. I was taught with respect to the visible church, "Let us learn, from her single title of Mother, how useful, nay, how necessary the knowledge of her is, since there is no other means of entering into life unless she conceive us in the womb and give us birth, unless she nourish us at her breasts, and, in short, keep us under her charge and government, until, divested of mortal flesh, we become like the angels, (Matth. 22: 30.) For our weakness does not permit us to leave the school until we have spent our whole lives as scholars. Moreover, beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, as Isaiah and Joel testify, (Isa. 37: 32; Joel 2: 32.) To their testimony Ezekiel subscribes, when he declares, "They shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel," (Ezek. 13: 9) as, on the other hand, those who turn to the cultivation of true piety are said to inscribe their names among the citizens of Jerusalem. For which reason it is said in the psalm, "Remember me, O Lord, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; that I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance," (Ps. 106: 4, 6.) By these words the paternal favour of God and the special evidence of spiritual life are confined to his peculiar people, and hence the abandonment of the Church is always fatal.

[Edited on 6-30-2005 by openairboy]


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## Scott (Jun 30, 2005)

One response is to look at Catholic doctrine, if that is what she is looking at. Remember, that Catholicism has a personal dimension too. 

This is the scheme of individual salvation according to The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Baptism remits original and actual sins up to the point of baptism. After this point an individual is still subject to "concupiscence," or the inclination to sin, which is not in itself sinful. There are different kinds of post-baptismal actual sins, such as venial and mortal. A member in good standing of the Catholic Church still goes to hell if he dies with mortal sin. Individual salvation is never assured, as grace is easy to lose (even great Catholic saints are often recorded as being worried about whether they would make it to heaven). 

Anyway, the bottom line is that some people in the Catholic church go to heaven and some go to hell. Whatever they call it (personal relationship or something else), there is an individual dimension too even in Catholicism. So, I don't see why your friend is making such a big deal over this point. Success in Catholicism is based on individual performance, perhaps even more so than evangelicalism.


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## Michael Butterfield (Jun 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Michael, I don't think she is quite getting at the same concept as the WCF and Calvin. There's a *huge* difference between saying "no one individual can be saved by Christ" and "salvation cannot occur outside of Christ."



 Your point Gabriel is well taken concering the issue of individual salvation. The only thing I am suggesting is that some progress might be made if one accepts the premise of the church's importance in the whole of salvation. For example, when I became a calvinist and even now people always like to say, "What about John 3:16?". To which I always reply, I love John 3:16. It is so important to me, etc. This has often removed the argument about issues not really related to the discussion. One could then move on in the discussion about individual salvation, because the body is made up of individuals and without individuals there is no body. I am thinking out loud here, so bare with me.


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## Michael Butterfield (Jun 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> One response is to look at Catholic doctrine, if that is what she is looking at. Remember, that Catholicism has a personal dimension too.
> 
> This is the scheme of individual salvation according to The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Baptism remits original and actual sins up to the point of baptism. After this point an individual is still subject to "concupiscence," or the inclination to sin, which is not in itself sinful. There are different kinds of post-baptismal actual sins, such as venial and mortal. A member in good standing of the Catholic Church still goes to hell if he dies with mortal sin. Individual salvation is never assured, as grace is easy to lose (even great Catholic saints are often recorded as being worried about whether they would make it to heaven).
> ...



Helpful


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