# The reformed view of O.T. Saints



## Barnpreacher (Feb 16, 2005)

Reformed theology teaches that man will always make the wrong decision when choosing for himself, correct? So, how does reformed theology explain when O.T. Saints are told to choose whom they will serve or to choose whether they will willingly bring an offering, sacrifice etc.?

The Holy Spirit did not seal believers until after Jesus Christ ascended back to the Father. So, O.T. Saints were not sealed by the Spirit (see Sampson, Saul). So, if they weren't sealed with the Holy Spirit as N.T. believers then how could they make the right choice when it came to who they would serve, offerings, sacrifices etc.?

I've never really been able to get a sufficient answer from anyone on this question. I'm curious for my own edification because I have studied dispensationalism-fundamentalism all of my Christian life, but have been heavily leaning toward reformed theology the past two or three years.

But this is one of those questions that I haven't been able to get peace about. Our natures are depraved just like the O.T. humans had depraved natures. I can't argue that. But why does God tell them to choose, and how did some make the right choice??? 

Any scriptural help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 16, 2005)

*Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Psalm 51:11*


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> But this is one of those questions that I haven't been able to get peace about. Our natures are depraved just like the O.T. humans had depraved natures. I can't argue that. But why does God tell them to choose, and how did some make the right choice???



You must also understand these passages of "choice" in their proper light. The whole point of the Mosaic covenant was to teach us that we are unable to make the right choice. That is why God gave them a sacrificial system to remind them of their sins whenever they made the wrong choice, and of their need for an atonement. The law is a tutor to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3). First, by showing us God's righteous requirements. Second, by showing us our sin and inability. Third, by pointing us to Christ, who merited that righteousness in his earthly life, and took the curse of sin upon himself. He grants us his righteousness through faith in Him, and through the regenerating and sanctifying work of the Spirit enables us to obey. For the OT saints, this remained true as well. The types and shows of Christ were made effectual by the Holy Spirit to build saving faith in the promised Messiah.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> *Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
> Psalm 51:11*


I know as a NT believer (and a Calvinist), I can pray this prayer with all my heart. Because if I am sunk in sin as David was, I should have no confidence in my relationship with God. I should be as terrified of being a "Demas" (2 Tim. 4:10) as David feared being a "Saul".

And should I wait until I am risking apostasy to cry out for the grace of perseverance? Certainly not. Is this not praying God not to remove his Spirit from me? Most certainly. And for his elect, you can be sure he will not remove his sanctifying Agent. "Of those whom you have given me, I have lost _none_ of them" (Jn 18:9).


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> I know as a NT believer (and a Calvinist), I can pray this prayer with all my heart. Because if I am sunk in sin as David was, I should have no confidence in my relationship with God. I should be as terrified of being a "Demas" (2 Tim. 4:10) as David feared being a "Saul".
> 
> And should I wait until I am risking apostasy to cry out for the grace of perseverance? Certainly not. Is this not praying God not to remove his Spirit from me? Most certainly. And for his elect, you can be sure he will not remove his sanctifying Agent. "Of those whom you have given me, I have lost _none_ of them" (Jn 18:9).




*And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Luke 18:7*


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

> _originally posted by puritansailor_
> You must also understand these passages of "choice" in their proper light. The whole point of the Mosaic covenant was to teach us that we are unable to make the right choice. That is why God gave them a sacrificial system to remind them of their sins whenever they made the wrong choice, and of their need for an atonement. The law is a tutor to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3). First, by showing us God's righteous requirements. Second, by showing us our sin and inability. Third, by pointing us to Christ, who merited that righteousness in his earthly life, and took the curse of sin upon himself. He grants us his righteousness through faith in Him, and through the regenerating and sanctifying work of the Spirit enables us to obey. For the OT saints, this remained true as well. The types and shows of Christ were made effectual by the Holy Spirit to build saving faith in the promised Messiah.



I agree completely about what you say the law was for because I believe that's what the Bible teaches. 

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what is the reformed theology view on the role of the Holy Spirit in the O.T.? The Bible seems to make clear that the Spirit of the Lord was upon Saul, and then departed. The Spirit of the Lord was upon Samson and then departed. As was already pointed out David prayed for the Lord not to take his Holy Spirit from him.

I know how dispensationalists handle the role of the Holy Spirit in the O.T. They say he did not seal O.T. believers. And I don't find anyone else apart from David (the sure mercies of David) whom the Holy Spirit did seal in the O.T.

So, with that in mind when an O.T. saint had to choose to sacrifice or to make a decision whom to serve as in the book of Joshua, if they weren't sealed by the Holy Spirit then how did they make the right decision? The only way we can make the right decision today is by the work of the Holy Spirit or else we would choose wrong every time. I believe that, but I'm trying to relate that to the unsealed O.T. believers. Did the Holy Spirit come upon them every time they had to sacrifice, bring offerings etc.? Or could they make a right choice without his sealing? And if so how could they make the right choice if their natures were depraved. I hope you see where I'm going with this, and why I'm struggling with this point in refromed theology being as how I've studied dispensationalism all my Christian life. 





> _originally posted by joshua_
> Sorry if I muddied the waters and only made things worse. Welcome again!



You didn't muddy the waters brother. I appreciate your response and the welcome.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Barnpreacher]


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## Philip A (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> The Bible seems to make clear that the Spirit of the Lord was upon Saul, and then departed. The Spirit of the Lord was upon Samson and then departed. As was already pointed out David prayed for the Lord not to take his Holy Spirit from him.



Brother Ryan,

Perhaps what is throwing you off is that you are not distinguishing between the different types of work that the Holy Spirit accomplishes. The general works of the Holy Spirit (for leading nations, accomplishing certain works, craftsmanship of the tabernacle and temple, etc) are in an entirely different class than the works of the Holy Spirit in believers (both OT and NT). Does that make sense? In other words, when we read in the OT that the Spirit of the Lord did (fill in the blank), we ought not always to think that that person in which he is working is a believer, or that the work that he is doing is necessarily tied to salvation.

A most helpful book on this is Vol III of the Works of John Owen. This is a hefty work, and takes a great deal of study, but it is also available in an abridged version from Banner of Truth in their "Puritan Paperbacks" series. 

I would not agree with the belief that the Holy Spirit did not seal OT believers.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Philip A]


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

> _originally posted by Philip A_
> Perhaps what is throwing you off is that you are not distinguishing between the different types of work that the Holy Spirit accomplishes. The general works of the Holy Spirit (for leading nations, accomplishing certain works, craftsmanship of the tabernacle and temple, etc) are in an entirely different class than the works of the Holy Spirit in believers (both OT and NT). Does that make sense?



That does make sense, and I believe it is scriptural. It is interesting to note the different types of works that the Holy Spirit accomplishes in the O.T. Many times it is very interesting to note the type of individuals he accomplishes his work through and/or by. But that is kind of my point. In the N.T. after Jesus ascended back to the Father he said the Comforter would come. The Comforter has come and has sealed believers until the day of redemption. I just don't find that work of sealing by the Holy Spirit accomplished anywhere in the O.T. And so that is what makes me question how reformed theology handles how an O.T. saint can ever make a "right choice." 
I know if I wasn't sealed by the Holy Spirit it would be impossible for me to make any right decisions. And the O.T. Saint had to make a lot of right decisions. There were an abundance of sacrifices to make and offerings to bring. Not to mention the daily battles with temptations that they had.

Sorry, if I keep asking what seems to be the same question on this matter. I am just trying to grasp the reformed theology view on this subject. As I said I have studied the dispensationalist view on this matter, and they would simply say our natures aren't too depraved to make a right choice. But I cannot agree with that view any longer. I believe until we are born again we are dead in trespasses and sins and our wills are held captive to sin.

Thanks for the recommendation on the work by Owen. He's classic.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> 
> 
> > _originally posted by Philip A_
> ...



First, how are you defining the "sealing" of the Spirit? 
Second, the OT saints partook of the same salvation as we did. They were saved by grace through faith in Christ. TULIP applied to them as well. The difference between them and us, is that we have a greater measure of understanding and a greater measure of the Spirit. But the nature and benefits of salvation are fundamentally the same.


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> First, how are you defining the "sealing" of the Spirit?



I define the "sealing" of the Spirit as when the Holy Spirit dwells within the believer and does not leave. The Bible says we are sealed until the day of redemption. At the day of redemption we will receive bodies like Christ. But right now the Bible says our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost. He dwells within our new man.

I just don't find any O.T. verses that talk about the O.T. saints bodies being the temple of the Holy Ghost, or that they were sealed until the day of redemption as we are. He came and went in the O.T. He doesn't do that today.

However, it's obvious that the Holy Spirit worked (though in different ways) in the O.T. So, for any of the elect O.T. believers to do what was right it had to be a work of the Holy Spirit. I just wondered what the proof texts were that reformed theology used to prove that point.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 17, 2005)

Ryan,
Surely the Apostle Paul is not speaking in NT terms here:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, *were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, *

Verse 4 is speaking of the doctrine of election; NT and OT saints are all chosen in Him in the same way. Hence, the encouraging statement by Paul is covering the sphere of Christianity.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 17, 2005)

Ryan read Hebrews 11. The OT saints were sealed. They had faith in the coming Messiah and were confirmed in it. But, they probably didn't understand it in the detail that we do from NT revelation. 

The Spirit was often used in the OT to equip people to accomplish a specific task. So with Saul, he was given the Spirit when he became king, to equip him for that task, but once he was rejected from that office, the Spirit departed. The same with Balaam, though he tried to curse Israel, he was overtaken by the Spirit to bless. You could also see the same idea with Judas. He was one of the twelve. He cast out demons with the rest of the 12 by the power of the Spirit. But in the end he was rejected. Notice in Matt 7:23, Jesus does not deny that those "lawless" ones performed the miracles they claimed.


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

Scott and Patrick - Ephesians 1 and Hebrews 11 are both very good passages for me to look at from the reformed view on this subject. I've looked at them hundreds of times through the dispensational view, but now I need to take off the dispensational thinking cap and put on the reformed one. That's not always an easy thing to do for a lifetime dispensationalist.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> Scott and Patrick - Ephesians 1 and Hebrews 11 are both very good passages for me to look at from the reformed view on this subject. I've looked at them hundreds of times through the dispensational view, but now I need to take off the dispensational thinking cap and put on the reformed one. That's not always an easy thing to do for a lifetime dispensationalist.



I understand what you mean. I've been there.


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