# Matt 22:37 *was schizophrenia



## Scott Bushey (Jan 4, 2005)

> The Westminster Confession of Faith - ch 16, sect. 7
> Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands: and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nore are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace form God: and yet, their neghlect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God



Practically, this then means that we as believers should not use any secular doctors or anything as it makes us part and parcel to sin. This is another red herring and error. You have mistakenly interpreted the WCF.

Joe, am I reading you correctly here? When Pam had cancer, you decided to not take her to the DR for tx?

Joe,
You previously said on 1/2/05:


> Scott, I am apposed to much of what you've said simply because the mind is the soul.



Also, please examine the greek here in regards to 'heart, soul and mind". Apparently, they are different.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 


[Edited on 1-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 4, 2005)

*Matt 22:37*

A simple misunderstanding Scott. She had surgery for all three. Radiation on the third, plus a skin graft because of the size of the wound and some follow up surgery to attempt to fix a hernia. The hernia is still there and not readily treatable because her body doesn't accept the goretex. All circulation in her left leg is colateral. No lymph nodes in her left groin. She has lymphadema (sp?), RSD and constant pain. Yes, she takes medication for these as needed. 


Sorry, couldn't let this one go. 


> examine your Greek



kardia - heart, inner self, *mind*, will, desire, intention

psyche - means "soul" and can mean *mind*, self, that which has life, one's inmost being

dianoia - *mind*, understanding, intention, purpose, thought, attitude

These are, in effect, synonyms Scott. They surround the core of our being. This is not a list of separate or disparate nouns. 

"No essential difference is intended. We must not begin to over-analyze. What is meant in all these passages [Deu 6:5; Mark 12:30] is that man should love God with all the "faculties" with which God has endowed him," Hendriksen, "Matthew" (in NTC) p. 809.

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by Wannabee]


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 4, 2005)

*Matt 22:37*

Thanks Joe, I'll look at hendriksen in the am. Thanks for the information on Pam. Give her our regards.

Thanks for the exchanges also; Not that I agree with you.

And happy new Year to you!

Joe,
Do you think Christ intended it to mean 'mind"? Or all the faculties. If he meant all faculties, then the items mentioned must be seen as seperate, no?

[Edited on 1-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 4, 2005)

*Matt 22:37*



> Thanks for the exchanges also; Not that I agree with you.


At least we agree on something. :bigsmile:


I consider Jesus' reference here to be making the point that we are to love God with all of our being, with every fiber of who we are. I think all our faculties is a good way to put it. I don't think they are separate, but a way of making sure that He was understood to mean the entirety of our being. I don't think He meant three different things, but three different nuances of the same thing, our very souls/minds/spirits.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 5, 2005)

*Matt 22:37*

Joe,
But he seperates them as singular items. the statement proves it.....If Christ meant all our faculties (which you above agree with) then the mind is not the soul, the soul is not the mind and the heart is the heart. They are seperate.

Lookat the above in regards to what you said again:



> Scott, I am apposed to much of what you've said simply because the mind is the soul.



~The mind is not the soul, it is the soul. The mind is the mind....

Oh and by the way, you never responded to my claim that you have misused the WCF quote. That is not what it means.....

[Edited on 1-5-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 5, 2005)

Hey, how'd you do that? I've posted here and never seen this thread. Oh well, more posts!!! 


If, as I have claimed, psychotherapy is delving into the domain of spiritual counseling, then it is applicable. The point is that men who don't know God have no business in people's minds, especially the minds of Christians.


I disagree with your conclusion on Matt 22:37 based on what I've already said, my understanding of the Greek (which is admittedly limited) and on the few commentaries I've read. The Hebrew seems to bear this out as well, where strength is used instead of mind (Deu 6:5). In both cases the idea of "ability, force, abundance" is presented. Heart is the inner being of man, his very bowels. Soul and Spirit are interchangeable here as well. All of your thought, being, desire, etc should center around loving God. I've already looked at the languages Scott and comfortable with what I see, including Luke 10:27 (thanks to the questions of a late night lurker on the board). Perhaps I've oversimplified it and it could use some work, but I really can't see how you can separate these three terms. The simple fact is that the mind is not the brain. The mind is the thought, the inner man, the heart, the spirit, and yes the soul (although some take the trichotomy position, which would take some modification of this view).


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 5, 2005)

Joe, I split the thread because we are dealing with a text and not a subject.......

Joseph, 
Do a study on all three words, whether Hebrew or Greek. They are not all the same. They may have at times an interchangability, but they are not all the same thing. There are times when the scriptures speak of the heart; it means the heart. The bowels are the bowels. The eyes are the eyes. Jesus intentionally make a point in mentioning all 3. Was His point in bringing to light ALL the faculties, yes; I agree with this point. However, you cannot run amuck with this rationale and then try and say that in every case, the mind IS the soul, The soul is the mind, the heart is the bowels etc.



> Heart is the inner being of man, his very bowels



His _very_ bowels???

2Ki 18:27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own urine with you? 

I suppose that the _ dung_ that is mentioned above is a secretion of the heart; Cmon, Joe. 


[Edited on 1-6-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 6, 2005)

> I suppose that the dung that is mentioned above is a secretion of the heart; Cmon, Joe.



Scott, do a word study on the word translated as "heart" in the English OT. It does not mean heart as we think of it. It means bowels. Not necessarily the physical organ, but the depth of one's being. The Jews considered this to be the pit of your stomach, not the pump in your chest. Just like we refer to heart issues, we're not talking about our pumps, we're talking about the inner man.

I've done to word study in both languages Scott. I'm satisfied. If you've done the work, show me specifically how they are different and what the application.

Also, if the mind is not the soul is not the spirit, can you please explain to me the difference?


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## doulosChristou (Jan 6, 2005)

Hendriksen is correct.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 6, 2005)

Greg, Joe bear with me here.
I do not disagree with Hendriksen. Let me clearify. Men are made up of actual matter. The fall caused sin and as result, disease. The body is affected by sin/disease. The brain is organic. It gets real tumors, real cancers. They are spiritual in the fact that they are caused as a result of sin. Joe help me here. Can we go through this a step at a time?

1) Are cancers/tumors spiritual or medical?
2) Am I correct in believing that you believe that all disorders of the mind are spiritual? 
3) Is the mind the same as the brain?

[Edited on 1-6-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 6, 2005)

1) physical/medical
2) Yes
3) Absolutely not! The brain is the organ, the mind is not.


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## pastorway (Jan 6, 2005)

so Joe, you are saying that every single ailment of the _mind_ is spiritual and has no physical root? If so, then you would have to prove that physical ailments of the brain do not affect the mind.

People with severe head trauma or strokes often undergo personality changes. Is this not a physical ailment - a wound to the brain - that affects the mind?

Phillip


[Edited on 1-7-05 by pastorway]


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 6, 2005)

Thank you phillip, my exact point. Joe thanks for the clarity. I believe we were talking past each other due to needing to draw some clearer definitions.

Damage to the brain is not always measurable. Typically the test to determine is EEG. But they are b ased upon condition and symptom, i.e. head injury, slurred speech, loss of motor function.

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 6, 2005)

> so Joe, you are saying that every single ailment of the mind is spiritual and has no physical root?


I think you wanted to switch "you" and "are." 

I edited this because I had to think through again. All ailments of the mind have a spiritual root. Yes. Like Scott said though, that's simply a result of the fall. I realize that this is not what this converation is directly about, but that's the simple answer to your question.

I said that the mind is not the physical brain. If you look through my posts on the other thread you can see that I agree that they affect each other. The mind is who the person is, the brain is the physical organ, including chemical reactions within the brain. Of course someone's spiritual reactions and condition affects their brain. If a person has a head injury it is obviously not a spiritual condition, although it could have spiritual ramifications depending upon how they handled it (and how severe the symptoms were of course). Likewise, a person's spiritual condition can affect their physical condition. We've already been through this. 

Is anyone here actually trying to say that Jesus is talking about someone's physical brain here?



Scott


> Also, if the mind is not the soul is not the spirit, can you please explain to me the difference?


At this point Scott, I don't see your position. You seem to be refuting me without making a stand on certain view. Perhaps if you made a statement of your position I could understand why you see the need to disagree with mine.

[Edited on 7-1-2005 by Wannabee]


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## gwine (Jan 6, 2005)

I always thought the mind was an emergent property of brain activity. No brain activity = no mind. Thus I do not equate the mind with the soul - because the soul is eternal - but I do think (gotta stop doing that) the soul affects the mind and the brain also affects the mind. That being said I also agree that the brain can be affected by the soul.

Maybe I need to think this through a little more and get rid of the middleman. Or, as Albert Einstein would say, "I will now a little think".


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## fredtgreco (Jan 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> so Joe, you are saying that every single ailment of the _mind_ is spiritual and has no physical root? If so, then you would have to prove that physical ailments of the brain do not affect the mind.
> 
> People with severe head trauma or strokes often undergo personality changes. Is this not a physical ailment - a wound to the brain - that affects the mind?
> ...



It would seem to me that the mind is not the brain, but the brain can affect the mind. So there are spiritual afflicitions of the mind, and there are medical/physical afflicitions of the brain that can affect the mind. My point in this thread is that there are both, and that modern medical science makes the mistake of saying that there can only be the latter. That is why they must "find" a medical/physical cause for everything. 

Do you have guilt? Then medical science says it must be a chemical imbalance or a condition that can be treated through medicines. This is obviously wrong.

Are you suffering the effects of a lack of oxygen to the brain (e.g. a stroke)? Then it would be equally as dangerous to say that there is some sort of spiritual battle causing that physical damage.

The problem in our day is not too much spirituality; it is too little.


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## pastorway (Jan 6, 2005)

to Fred

Each "camp" seems to want to completely exclude the other and both are dangerous extremes. The Bible and science (medicine) can work hand in hand as we minister to souls, hearts, and minds!

Phillip


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## doulosChristou (Jan 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> It would seem to me that the mind is not the brain, but the brain can affect the mind. So there are spiritual afflicitions of the mind, and there are medical/physical afflicitions of the brain that can affect the mind. My point in this thread is that there are both, and that modern medical science makes the mistake of saying that there can only be the latter. That is why they must "find" a medical/physical cause for everything.
> 
> ...



Exactly. The mind is not to be equated with the brain, but brain damage often has an effect on the mind. Case in point: I have a relative who fell off from a high ladder and stuck his head badly. He was unconscious for several hours. When he came to, for some inexplicable reason, he was a vegetarian and has been ever since.  Before the accident, he was as carnivorous as any average West Texas man. Today, the very thought of eating meat turns his stomach.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Wannabee_
> 
> 
> > so Joe, you are saying that every single ailment of the mind is spiritual and has no physical root?
> ...



Joe, I have to be honest, I am not disagreeing with everything you are saying. In fact, if you look at my previous post, I asked some defining questions as to get a better handle of both our positions. As I said, I don't believe we are far off from agreeing. I have gleened some clearity from your posts and thank you. Maybe because I am in the medical field, I lean into it more; this could be something I need to grow in. See more in the spiritual realm, especially in regard to the mind/brain.

You said in your last post:



> Of course someone's spiritual reactions and condition affects their brain.



Can not the brain affect one's spiritual condition also? For instance, my cousin bumped his head on the bottom of a swimming pool, as a result he is now schizophrenic and requires lithium. Without the lithium, he goes into fits of rage.

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee (Jan 7, 2005)

I'll have to plead ignorance on this one Scott.

Some would claim we are made of three parts, the mind, the spirit/soul and the body, or they might say the spirit, soul and body. Others only see two parts, meaning the mind/sould/spirit and body. I just don't know wich to believe. It does have a bearing on how you perceive something like the incident you described. 

Also, this is obviously a physical condition that must be treated as such. And yes, our physical conditions to affect us spiritually. For the Christian our physical struggles should bring spiritual growth and further equip us to minister to one another. 

Again, in the situation you desrcribed I just don't know. (where's the "scratching my head" smiley?) This is where the doctor has to make a diagnosis and I have to step aside (or work along side him) and strive to minister to his soul. In this instance though, we are not talking about a simple problem with his mind. There is an obvious physical cause. An MD can address it rather than a psychologist. (I know, that's for the other thread )

[Edited on 7-1-2005 by Wannabee]


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2005)

Agreed. I believe we can close this thread now. 

*See Joe, we can agree; I know you didn't see this as a possibility, but there you have it.


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