# Advice Solicited - Church Issues



## W.C. Dean (Jun 2, 2020)

I plan on talking to my OPC pastor about this tomorrow, but it's very late here in Virginia so I haven't spoken with him yet. As some of you know I am a member of an OPC we attend in the evenings, but it is a far drive from our home so we have continued to attend an evangelical SBC about 4 minutes from our home. We have attended there for 3 years or so and this church is where I first got introduced to Reformed theology (by a pastor who left and now an USAF Chaplain) and became serious whatsoever about Christianity. 

Increasingly, my mother and I have become aware of the lack of leadership. We have two ruling elders and one interim elder. The church is not solely ruled by the elders but also by a board of sorts that essentially makes all the decisions for the church, with the approval of the elders. One elder is a kind man but has personally informed me he does not talk to anyone about their sins, in case it makes them uncomfortable. This was after a woman publically confessed to group of our church that she was gambling extensively. 

The reason I am writing this is because the Worship leader (officially: creative arts pastor) is the public face of our church. He runs the social media for the church and directs how every service is run. In the past I shared him with my discomfort with some of the elements of the services (altar calls and skits) and he told me to my face I had a spirit of legalism. Now, with the country wide protests he is making frequent posts about it and spreads propaganda. Recently I called out one of his posts because it accused a Richmond city police officer of spitting on a man using a video that seemed to clearly show the officer not spitting on the protestor. He told me and someone who agreed we were just wrong and asked me if I thought it was good the police was spitting on people. 

I know for some the answer seems obvious: leave the church and either make the long drive to the OPC four times a day or attend another church in the mornings. I am only seventeen and my mother is not yet ready to just leave the church due to friendships. Any advice is welcome. A Reformed Baptist church (LBCF) is also close to our home and I am considering just attending there in the mornings. Thank you.


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## Taylor (Jun 3, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> A Reformed Baptist church (LBCF) is also close to our home...



Have you not solved the problem yourself here?

Reactions: Like 6


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## Ben Zartman (Jun 3, 2020)

If your parents require you to go to the SBC church, you must honor them as long as you're under their authority. Once of age, you may respectfully decline. If your mom doesn't mind you going elsewhere, why not let her go where she wishes and you go to the RB church?
If you must stay in the SBC church, your differences can be made known without being confrontational, and if you have made them known, there is no blood on your hands. Even in the worst situations, there is a right way for a Christian to behave--you can be an example of that.

Reactions: Like 3


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## RamistThomist (Jun 3, 2020)

Ben Zartman said:


> If your parents require you to go to the SBC church, you must honor them as long as you're under their authority. Once of age, you may respectfully decline. If your mom doesn't mind you going elsewhere, why not let her go where she wishes and you go to the RB church?
> If you must stay in the SBC church, your differences can be made known without being confrontational, and if you have made them known, there is no blood on your hands. Even in the worst situations, there is a right way for a Christian to behave--you can be an example of that.



Something like this. You need to honor your parents but also see if they are willing to compromise in the good sense of the term. Ask if you can go with her 2 times a month.

Also see what your OPC pastor says.

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## Chad Hutson (Jun 3, 2020)

I can appreciate your concern with the circumstances at the SBC church, however you are not a member there. If you must attend regularly in deference to your parents' wishes, remember that you are a visitor. In due time, when you are on your own and solely responsible for your own decisions, move closer to your home church or find another church to attend closer to home.
I like the suggestion to work out a resolution with your parents to allow you to attend the Reformed Baptist church near you. If not, by God's grace, you will be able to suffer or endure the improper worship practices and lack of effective leadership. As for the social media posts....don't read them.
May God give you wisdom (I wish more young people were as discerning as you are!).

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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 3, 2020)

I hope your conscience can be settled quickly, because God has not appointed you to "fix" your nearby SBC. He hasn't appointed you to "fix" your OPC congregation, either, and not just because you haven't spotted the problems there yet. And believe me, there are problems there--maybe small problems, but they exist, and could grow bigger long term or all of a sudden. Because this is a fallen world, and sin is always with us.

But you have not been given the power to address the issues that you see as an elected leader; and there is something perverse about the impulse to crank up your own power after an "activist" layman manner. Being a change-agent is all the rage today--very chic, very individualistic, and has strong appeal for the Rousseauan temperament of this age that imagines the young actually know everything, see it all clearly (unlike the old, blind, stuck-in-the-rut, and jaded mature folk), and should be treated like sages.

I'm not accusing you of anything, or of doing anything other than boldly asking about things that don't seem right to you, that would be legitimate concerns if they are in fact *off*. But you are not in a position to "fix" matters that affect the community. And you could, with surprising rapidity, end up as a target of turf-protecting people with real power and the ability to identify YOU as a common enemy for the community to collectively oppose.

If you cannot be still under the regime, if you cannot be a part of the community and be respected as an informal stabilizing influence, if you cannot be patient and profitably nourished, you need to move, emigrate, escape. You need to take care of that piece of the world that IS your responsibility and where you have the best influence: you and your family.

This is not a sales pitch for committing more earnestly to the OPC church, even though it seems like you are committed there to the extent that your membership is held there. That seems like a strong identification to me, and it argues strongly for finding a way to make it your regular, constant home.

Or, maybe you should be invested in some other, closer work to your livings. But if there is any way for you to be led in green pastures, beside still waters, you ought to be aiming for that. Because, it seems to me that the agitation of your present situation is hardly doing your restless spirit any good.

Reactions: Like 2 | Edifying 1


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 3, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Have you not solved the problem yourself here?



I would second what Taylor's advice. If you cannot get to the OPC church of which you are a member in the mornings, you still have to go somewhere. The Particular Baptist Church seems like the better choice.


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## Jack K (Jun 3, 2020)

This isn't what you asked, but it's a common pitfall for many of us so I'm going to throw it out there...

Wherever you go for this season in your life, make a serious effort to show up to worship rather than to judge, analyze, or critique. Appreciate what God has given you in that body of believers and that service of worship rather than fuming over what he has withheld. Do not take an hour that is meant to be for God's glory and turn it, internally, into an hour that becomes about how you know better and would do things differently.

The temptation to attend worship with a bitter or judgmental disposition is often with us, even in "good" churches, and it takes work to prepare our hearts so that we can resist it. On Saturday evenings and Sundays, you might prepare by practicing thankfulness, praying for humility, etc., because thankfulness and humility are attitudes that fit and adorn worship. You will still have six days leftover for considering which church is the best place for you in your current time and station in life. But when you actually walk into the service, you are there to stand before your God, sing before the throne of your Savior, and sit at the feet of your loving Teacher. Don't make the mistake of thinking you are there instead to take mental notes on the fitness of the mere human up front.

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## W.C. Dean (Jun 3, 2020)

Jack K said:


> This isn't what you asked, but it's a common pitfall for many of us so I'm going to throw it out there...
> 
> Wherever you go for this season in your life, make a serious effort to show up to worship rather than to judge, analyze, or critique. Appreciate what God has given you in that body of believers and that service of worship rather than fuming over what he has withheld. Do not take an hour that is meant to be for God's glory and turn it, internally, into an hour that becomes about how you know better and would do things differently.
> 
> The temptation to attend worship with a bitter or judgmental disposition is often with us, even in "good" churches, and it takes work to prepare our hearts so that we can resist it. On Saturday evenings and Sundays, you might prepare by practicing thankfulness, praying for humility, etc., because thankfulness and humility are attitudes that fit and adorn worship. You will still have six days leftover for considering which church is the best place for you in your current time and station in life. But when you actually walk into the service, you are there to stand before your God, sing before the throne of your Savior, and sit at the feet of your loving Teacher. Don't make the mistake of thinking you are there instead to take mental notes on the fitness of the mere human up front.



I plan on responding to others, but I wanted to tell you I agree. My mother does not want me to go the Particular Baptist church without her, so until she is ready to relinquish the responsibilities at the SBC church she has told me I cannot attend the other church. I understand her reasoning, and even though she offered to let me stay home in the mornings I plan on attending the SBC with her until I am an adult or we leave together. I know once I move away, she will not travel the long distance to the OPC (since I am the only one who is a member there, and encouraged us to go there in the first place) and I hope she attends the Particular Baptist church. My main issue with attending for much longer is not necessarily the worship (although that is a large component), but with the attitude of the leaders. The worship leader I mentioned has also bullied people on facebook when they post things he disagrees with and it is quite disheartening. Thank you for your calm headed response. Your responses are usually so charitable and wise I sometimes find myself take issue with them until I realize you are probably correct.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 3, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> My main issue with attending for much longer is not necessarily the worship (although that is a large component), but with the attitude of the leaders. The worship leader I mentioned has also bullied people on facebook when they post things he disagrees with and it is quite disheartening.



Even if we take what you say about this person at face-value, what has that got to do with you attending this place? To paraphrase Tony Blair, I think the main point that you need to grasp is that lying in bed on a Sabbath-morning is not an option. (Okay, you might be sitting up, but you get my point.)


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## Jack K (Jun 3, 2020)

Church leadership that is oppressive or bullying is a serious problem, as is any church leadership that is more concerned with a political or social agenda than with shepherding the flock in the Lord. If you are convinced these things are happening, then it is understandable that you would feel troubled. It makes it all the more admirable and godly when you commit yourself to honor and obey your mom, and to faithfully worship with a humble heart, during this season in your life.

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## lynnie (Jun 3, 2020)

Did you tell your Mom that the guy accused you of having a spirit of legalism? How did she respond? 

My sincere condolences by the way. Will pray for you.


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## W.C. Dean (Jun 3, 2020)

lynnie said:


> Did you tell your Mom that the guy accused you of having a spirit of legalism? How did she respond?
> 
> My sincere condolences by the way. Will pray for you.



She knows about every instance. She is more angry about it all than I am but she is not willing to just abandon her responsibility at the church quickly. She also thinks she may want to wait and see what the next pastor is like (they're searching for one now).

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## Chad Hutson (Jun 3, 2020)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I hope your conscience can be settled quickly, because God has not appointed you to "fix" your nearby SBC. He hasn't appointed you to "fix" your OPC congregation, either, and not just because you haven't spotted the problems there yet. And believe me, there are problems there--maybe small problems, but they exist, and could grow bigger long term or all of a sudden. Because this is a fallen world, and sin is always with us.
> 
> But you have not been given the power to address the issues that you see as an elected leader; and there is something perverse about the impulse to crank up your own power after an "activist" layman manner. Being a change-agent is all the rage today--very chic, very individualistic, and has strong appeal for the Rousseauan temperament of this age that imagines the young actually know everything, see it all clearly (unlike the old, blind, stuck-in-the-rut, and jaded mature folk), and should be treated like sages.
> 
> ...


Tell us how you really feel! I can agree with you concerning the tendency of youth to believe it is their duty to correct perceived wrongs or errors. After all, they have been told all of their lives that they are the ones we've been waiting for, they should repair the mistakes of their parents' generation, and so forth. However, let's give him some credit. He could be dancing and rolling around at the local health and wealth disco/"church" with many of his contemporaries! I'm sure there's one of those kind of "churches" within close proximity to him.

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## Nomos (Jun 3, 2020)

W.C. Dean, 

I can empathize with you and also would find such behaviour obnoxious and annoying. But as Bruce wisely pointed out above, every church suffers from such (as does every person). It is so much easier to focus on the flaws of others, individually and institutionally. But that might just be a distraction from focusing on your own set of imperfections. Like myself, I suspect most others prefer to focus on the imperfections of others long before we have any inclination to begin looking at our own. 

I have lived in situations where the only option for fellowship was less than ideal, both doctrinally and socially. But I found a world of difference when I approached such as an effort to see what I could be actively doing positively for God in such a circumstance. After all, your circumstances are not left to accident. My admonition for you, wherever you find yourself, would be to focus on yourself and the gifts God has given you to impact the people around you, rather than the endless disappointments you will inevitably find in others.

I wish you best,
Ryan


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## wcf_linux (Jun 3, 2020)

There's a time to speak up, and there is a time to put your head down and wait things out. Given the relative lack of options at the moment, it might be good to minimize the pain by interacting with the creative arts pastor as little as possible while you still need to attend that church. Honestly, you could even frame it (to yourself and your mother, not to him or publicly) as giving him fewer occasions to sin against you. 

I suggest you (if applicable) unfollow him or the church page on Facebook and resist the urge to check to see if he is still saying those kinds of things on there. That, for the record, is advice I have been giving myself with regard to some old friends on that site.

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## W.C. Dean (Jun 3, 2020)

I thank you all for responding. I do frequently combat and pray against pride and the feeling of superiority: intellectually, spiritually, or morally compared to others. I have not and will not attempt to "fix" the problems at this church. They still preach the gospel and do not corrupt the core elements of the faith. This would not be an issue I would mention to anyone if it was just a layman, although the infractions are frustrating when they come from the man who is the face of the church, and in a leadership role. As I've mentioned, I have discussed why I am uncomfortable with his views of worship and it went very poorly. I will continue to attend the SBC until my mother wishes to move us or until I am an adult. I appreciate your prayers but if you do pray, pray especially for my mother, Kimberly. We have had to move churches a few times in my life for very difficult, distressing problems, never theological reasons. She often feels very lonely, and also very angry at the way people we know act, which she rightly states is very biased and usually rude. Thank you all.

Reactions: Praying 1


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## a mere housewife (Jun 3, 2020)

Re: the facebook dimension -- something to consider might be limiting your engagement there, and focusing on relating to your church family in other ways. I've long since lost my fb login info -- I can't deal with the amount of time necessary to keep up with 200 friends in a way that is not ignoring or overlooking them. I don't enjoy parties, because there is always that person I didn't get to speak to, who saw me speaking to someone else, and they were probably lonelier etc ... and fb is just like that on a scale of everyone-you-ever-knew. 

But I do believe that it might be helpful in other ways not to be engaging in that venue. There is so much temptation and even pressure for every person to pour out their thoughts about every current topic for everyone they ever knew to peruse. I'm not saying it never does any good. But I think it is also aggravating a lot of wounds and that a lot of the words don't have act behind them. I know it would be too much of a temptation for me. I often regret not listening more and speaking less here. Meanwhile I think much of the love for one another in relationships that actually heals and helps is in small, humble, private-life, focused on individuals, everyday actions. 

Ha, Kevin posted his comment about the fb dimension while I typed this. So, what he said. Praying for you and your mom. I'm sure she's very blessed to have you and feels that.


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## Wretched Man (Jun 3, 2020)

a mere housewife said:


> Re: the facebook dimension -- something to consider might be limiting your engagement there, and focusing on relating to your church family in other ways. I've long since lost my fb login info -- I can't deal with the amount of time necessary to keep up with 200 friends in a way that is not ignoring or overlooking them. I don't enjoy parties, because there is always that person I didn't get to speak to, who saw me speaking to someone else, and they were probably lonelier etc ... and fb is just like that on a scale of everyone-you-ever-knew.
> 
> But I do believe that it might be helpful in other ways not to be engaging in that venue. There is so much temptation and even pressure for every person to pour out their thoughts about every current topic for everyone they ever knew to peruse. I'm not saying it never does any good. But I think it is also aggravating a lot of wounds and that a lot of the words don't have act behind them. I know it would be too much of a temptation for me. I often regret not listening more and speaking less here. Meanwhile I think much of the love for one another in relationships that actually heals and helps is in small, humble, private-life, focused on individuals, everyday actions.
> 
> Ha, Kevin posted his comment about the fb dimension while I typed this. So, what he said. Praying for you and your mom. I'm sure she's very blessed to have you and feels that.


One of the best decisions I made in my life was leaving Facebook years ago. It’s such a waste of time and cause of envy and despair for so many who are trying to compete with posted “highlights” of everyone else’s lives (who are ostensibly always “having fun”).

W.C. - You seem incredibly precocious with regards to theology...especially considering what I can make of your parental influence. May I ask how you came across reformed theology and have developed what appears to be a relatively (compared to other teenagers) mature faith?

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## W.C. Dean (Jun 3, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> One of the best decisions I made in my life was leaving Facebook years ago. It’s such a waste of time and cause of envy and despair for so many who are trying to compete with posted “highlights” of everyone else’s lives (who are ostensibly always “having fun”).
> 
> W.C. - You seem incredibly precocious with regards to theology...especially considering what I can make of your parental influence. May I ask how you came across reformed theology and have developed what appears to be a relatively (compared to other teenagers) mature faith?



I will answer your question on your page so it doesn't bother those who do not care.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 3, 2020)

Following on what Nathan said, I wanted to add one more thought -- I think I remember reading that you are considering seminary and going into the ministry. If you do, what you are dealing with now -- and describe having dealt with in the past -- is some of your most important training.

It will help you NOT to be a bullying or rude pastor and to encourage a more loving, compassionate church. It's giving you experience in navigating real problems in relationships in the church.


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## Taylor (Jun 3, 2020)

wcf_linux said:


> resist the urge to check to see if he is still saying those kinds of things on there.



This is advice that I am struggling to follow even right now amid all this nonsense happening in our country, but it is sound advice.


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## wcf_linux (Jun 4, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> This is advice that I am struggling to follow even right now amid all this nonsense happening in our country, but it is sound advice.



I've been struggling to follow it, too. That's part of why I mentioned it!

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## lynnie (Jun 5, 2020)

a mere housewife said:


> Following on what Nathan said, I wanted to add one more thought -- I think I remember reading that you are considering seminary and going into the ministry. If you do, what you are dealing with now -- and describe having dealt with in the past -- is some of your most important training.
> 
> It will help you NOT to be a bullying or rude pastor and to encourage a more loving, compassionate church. It's giving you experience in navigating real problems in relationships in the church.


Very good point! Look at the leadership training God gave David with Saul.


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## W.C. Dean (Jun 6, 2020)

The worship director previously discussed recently shared something on his Facebook page that disparaged black conservative woman Candace Owens and encouraged people to listen to black Christians such as * T.D. Jakes. *I am dumbfounded and upset. The only reason I can think this happened is because he failed to read the thing he shared.

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## RamistThomist (Jun 7, 2020)

W.C. Dean said:


> The worship director previously discussed recently shared something on his Facebook page that disparaged black conservative woman Candace Owens and encouraged people to listen to black Christians such as * T.D. Jakes. *I am dumbfounded and upset. The only reason I can think this happened is because he failed to read the thing he shared.



Jakes promotes homosexuality and when pressed on Trinitarianism, he really couldn't convince one that he is Trinitarian. That's coming to a breaking point in fellowship.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 7, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Jakes promotes homosexuality and when pressed on Trinitarianism, he really couldn't convince one that he is Trinitarian. That's coming to a breaking point in fellowship.


I think W.C. is aware of the hypocrisy of James. The question is how does he, as a minor in a church his mother insists on attending which is espousing false doctrines, handle this situation.

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## RamistThomist (Jun 7, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> I think W.C. is aware of the hypocrisy of James. The question is how does he, as a minor in a church his mother insists on attending which is espousing false doctrines, handle this situation.



I think he still needs to honor his mother as far as possible. The church described seems silly and he won't get any nourishment, so he will need to supplement it on that part, but he can show a good example insofar as he doesn't have to commune with a modalist or polytheist like Jakes.

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## W.C. Dean (Jun 7, 2020)

The church does not espouse heresy in any department. No homosexuality, no anti-Trinitarianism, very against the prosperity gospel. I am frustrated because I think the man who shared the article that encouraged listening to Jakes was ignorant or did not think it mattered. It is especially frustrating because our church removed all songs from Hillsong, North Point, Bethel, and others because of their theology. The man who is now sharing advocacy of Jakes said if he was the accidental cause for anyone to be influenced by bad teaching he could not live with himself. It appears getting a pro-protest post that upholds Jakes is more important than what happened last year.

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## lynnie (Jun 7, 2020)

Just asking.....

Jonathan disobeyed his father Saul and supported David. 

There are times we can't obey parents. My father threw my sister and I out of the house ( post college, and the Lord provided wonderfully for us) because we refused to obey his wicked heathen Christ hating demands. Things like stop going to church and stop reading the blankety blank bible among others. The straw that broke the camel's back was when I would not date a "good catch" who wasn't saved. 

So anyway, isn't TD Jakes a line we don't cross? This is the social media of the church, not private opinion. Just because he is 17, he can't leave? I dunno. Seems to me he can. I know he loves his Mom and wants to be a good son, but, TD Jakes? Isn't that a hill to die on, a hill to lose everything for?


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## W.C. Dean (Jun 7, 2020)

lynnie said:


> Just asking.....
> 
> Jonathan disobeyed his father Saul and supported David.
> 
> ...



My mother is not forcing me to go, she actually encouraged me to stay home last week. What she barred me from is going to another church by myself. I volunteered to go because I believe it's better than sitting at home on Sabbath mornings. Also the posting of the article that supported Jakes occured on the man's personal page, not the church's. Still bad, as almost anyone who knows him knows his position in the church.

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## lynnie (Jun 7, 2020)

Thank you for clarifying. I am sorry you have to go through this and will pray for you again.


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