# Should we teach our children to pray before they profess faith?



## Steve Curtis (Oct 7, 2014)

This topic arose on another thread and I thought it worthy of its own. (Also, as a new father, I am particularly interested in such a discussion!)

So, is it right to pray *with* your children (i.e., as you teach/encourage them to pray) or is it right only to pray *for* your children, until such time as they profess faith in Christ?

**Mea culpa: I would rather have posted this in the family forum (so, moderators, feel free to move it), as I am more interested in the parental duties related to this topic**


----------



## Justified (Oct 7, 2014)

kainos01 said:


> This topic arose on another thread and I thought it worthy of its own. (Also, as a new father, I am particularly interested in such a discussion!)
> 
> So, is it right to pray *with* your children (i.e., as you teach/encourage them to pray) or is it right only to pray *for* your children, until such time as they profess faith in Christ?
> 
> **Mea culpa: I would rather have posted this in the family forum (so, moderators, feel free to move it), as I am more interested in the parental duties related to this topic**


I'm the one who asked. I think Rev. Winzer's latest post is definitely something to consider in regards to the OP.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Oct 7, 2014)

You begin teaching them how to dress themselves, long before they have any appreciable sense of propriety or modesty.

You begin teaching them kindness toward others, when it is little more than a "discipline."

You begin teaching them to sing songs that confess faith, long before they fully understand what the words all mean. Most of the time, this isn't even done with much intention by the parents; they just sing in church (and elsewhere) themselves, or put on a CD. The children imitate.

Prayer is the language of heaven, and if you have a covenant child (in the Presbyterian sense) prayer should be his native tongue. Over-concern with a "hypocritical" childish profession is a case of being over-wise, in my view. We are obligated to teach the faith to our seed in every category including prayer, not neglecting to pray for the Spirit to use those very means he promises to bless to nurture faith in our children.

I would rather advise an apostate child that his prayers and his walk should match, if the former is to do him ultimate good; than make a late start encouraging the "bold approach" by faith that those in covenant have always been encouraged to make. As it is, the habit of prayer formed early may call the wayward son back to God, when all other options for recovery have failed, humanly speaking. Think of the "prodigal son."


----------



## Steve Curtis (Oct 7, 2014)

Contra_Mundum said:


> if you have a covenant child (in the Presbyterian sense) prayer should be his native tongue



Bruce,

This has always been my conviction. I appreciate the tenor of the rest of your post, as well.

In general:

I asked the original question because some of the comments on the other thread pointed in a different direction (as have some authors with whom I am familiar). Though I really wasn't necessarily wanting to debate the issue of presumptive regeneration, I was curious to understand how PBers deal practically with the issue vis-à-vis their own children (whether or not they presume them to have been regenerated). Even in the non-covenantal (Dispensational Baptist) environment in which I grew up, we were taught as children to pray to God as "Father" and to speak/sing of things that are only properly true of believers ("This Little Light of Mine..."; "I've Got the Joy, Joy, Joy"; "I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N"; "Jesus Loves Me"; etc.) and these concepts inevitably migrated into our prayers, as well (coupled, as Bruce suggested, with the imitation of the prayers we heard from others). So, do we encourage such prayers, all the while instructing the children that such truths can only be appropriated by faith in Christ? Or...?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Oct 8, 2014)

kainos01 said:


> So, do we encourage such prayers, all the while instructing *the children* that such truths can only be appropriated by faith in Christ?


Unquestionably. Moreover, when would this instruction ever be inappropriate? Should we only instruct up to 3yr olds in this manner? Should we stop at 10yrs? How about 17yrs? 40 yrs? 80yrs? Until whenever we get a suitable "reaction?"

Without meaning any offense, the question as it stands implies to me some kind of threshold for faith which we are not only capable of discerning with critical accuracy, but after which crossing can be safely relegated to the category of "old concerns."

My point is, that the 40yr old may have heard that instruction countless times from childhood, but objectively speaking it never gets "old." He may be tired of hearing it, but he still needs to hear it.

Christian instruction is just that: Christian instruction, and there isn't one set of instructions for one level of initiation, and other sets of instructions for advanced Christians. The depth of apprehension may be greater, the more the connections and interrelations of truth are discovered. But the essence remains.


----------



## Jack K (Oct 8, 2014)

First, any covenant kid should be taught as a believer until he declares or proves that he is not one.

Beyond that, we must not separate faith from prayer. So any kid who is brought into a Bible class I teach or whom I otherwise get to lead in matters of faith is a kid I will pray with and will encourage to pray. How could I not? How could I possibly undertake to instruct that kid in matters of faith without practicing with him what is both an essential element of faith and a means to obtain faith? That's what prayer is! We are instructed to _pray for faith_, and to _pray as an act of faith_. So I can't introduce a kid to faith without also introducing him to prayer. If I may teach him about Christian faith, then I also must teach him to pray.

Can I know that the kid is a true believer whom God surely will hear as his child? No, that is for God alone to know. But the uncertainty doesn't stop me from teaching that kid to believe, and neither should it stop me from teaching him to pray. I have little doubt that I've led many kids in prayers where their faith turned out to be stronger than mine. I'm not about to start judging kids' faith and determining which ones are ready to pray. That's a scary thought!


----------



## Steve Curtis (Oct 8, 2014)

Contra_Mundum said:


> When would this instruction ever be inappropriate?


Sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree, of course, that this is of the essence of the work of the church.
The point I was trying to draw out was this: do we encourage the child (I am specifically and only interested in child-rearing in this thread) to say/pray things that may not be true *while we thus instruct them* or do we discourage them from saying/praying such things *while we thus instruct them*. A link was posted on the other thread, which essentially defended the latter position. I am trying to ascertain how folks here on the PB address this issue in their own homes.



Jack K said:


> any covenant kid should be treated as a believer until he declares or proves otherwise



Jack, I agree with you completely.

Although the responses have been few so far, I am sensing that the other view may be a minority report here (by the "other view" I am referring to the idea that it is misleading to encourage a child to pray as if he were a believer when he has not yet professed himself to be a believer).


----------



## David_A_Reed (Oct 8, 2014)

Jesus said not to stop the little children from coming to him. So, absolutely, they should be encouraged to pray. And they will do so with the simplicity of a child.

Paul said, "When I was a child, I talked like a child" (1 Cor 13:11), so the same would be true in a child's prayers.

Little children can call upon God for help when scared, give thanks for their food, and so on.

If they pray while we are instructing them, we can correct them as we would in any other matter -- but in such a gentle way that we don't discourage them from pouring out their hearts to God.

David


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Oct 8, 2014)

Mark Jones addressed some of this in a recent article: Why I Baptize Babies - Reformation21 Blog

I agree with Mark that many Baptists are gloriously inconsistent with respect to how they have their children address God. I'm thankful for that. I could wish they had a proper view of their children as born into the Covenant but many confess one thing and then find their own practice of how they teach their children to address God and pray to Him in conflict with their Covenant views.

The point is that we see nothing in the Gospels or Epistles where Christ or the Apostles use guarded language with respect to children. Parents are told to train children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Children are told to obey their parents as to the Lord.

How do I train my children to do anything? I train them in the way they should go. I wouldn't teach them one way to address people all their lives only to wait until they're 13-18 years old that everything I taught them before has now changed now that they've reached a capacity for critical thinking.

I teach them in light of the Gospel as if it belongs to them even as I pray that it is the Lord's will that it would be so. I don't presume upon their conversion but I also don't assume that they are not. I don't teach them to obey the Lord now on some natural law principle but in light of the Gospel. When I forgive them it is in light of the Gospel. When I teach them how to pray I teach them the language of calling out to God to forgive them for their sins on account of Christ's righteousness.


----------



## SeanPatrickCornell (Oct 8, 2014)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I agree with Mark that many Baptists are gloriously inconsistent with respect to how they have their children address God. I'm thankful for that. I could wish they had a proper view of their children as born into the Covenant but many confess one thing and then find their own practice of how they teach their children to address God and pray to Him in conflict with their Covenant views.
> 
> The point is that we see nothing in the Gospels or Epistles where Christ or the Apostles use guarded language with respect to children. Parents are told to train children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Children are told to obey their parents as to the Lord.



This makes no sense to me.

Teaching how to pray, worship, etc. to people who's Covenantal status is unknown is a common practice of Christians of every stripe.

Do you exclude unbaptized adults who've never made a profession of faith from corporate worship and from your Sunday School classes?

From a theological and doctrinal standpoint, we Baptists treat our children at least as well as you would treat strangers off the street.

I see no inconsistency here.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Oct 8, 2014)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> This makes no sense to me.


It goes without saying based on your Confession of Faith.


SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Teaching how to pray, worship, etc. to people who's Covenantal status is unknown is a common practice of Christians of every stripe.


I think you made my point. Where Christ and the Apostles speak in an unqualified manner concerning children, you qualify. As a Baptist, I certainly expect that you would say that their Covenantal status is unknown but that's begging the question.

Let me point out to you that, according to your conviction, you don't know the Covenantal status of _anyone_ in your congregation. If you think about it more deeply then you'll understand the point I'm making.


SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Do you exclude unbaptized adults who've never made a profession of faith from corporate worship and from your Sunday School classes?


That's not the question. The question is how I treat Covenant children. Again, you beg the question because you consider children to be of the same category as a pagan and I'm pointing out that, practically speaking, most Baptsts do not treat their children as pagans.



SeanPatrickCornell said:


> From a theological and doctrinal standpoint, we Baptists treat our children at least as well as you would treat strangers off the street.


Honestly, this is a sub-Christian statement. I can't believe you just wrote this. You see no inconsistency in Scripture to the idea that a parent is to treat his child the same way he treats a stranger from off the street?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 8, 2014)

There is a great difference in teaching one's child by example and encouraging them by giving them a false sense of security; my paper addresses this issue.


----------



## jwithnell (Oct 8, 2014)

Jack's point: "First, any covenant kid should be taught as a believer until he declares or proves that he is not one," is the fulcrum to this entire discussion. 

Moses didn't stop each person as he entered the divided red sea to inquire about his standing before God. They were permitted safe passage _because they were part of the covenant community_. Does that mean everyone who crossed had entered into a saving relationship with God? Or that everyone who crossed (the young children, the cognitively disabled) could clearly articulate his faith? Not a chance. Our children are given safe passage, and that includes approaching God in the faith that they are one for whom Christ mediates. Not _presuming_ this is so, but in faith that God will protect our precious covenant children. 

As I have prayed with and for my children (as we vowed to do when they were baptized), they have learned a great deal about prayer. As a parent it is a thrill to hear my children pray and have seen how they have learned by the pattern of our prayers since before birth. Praise God for his work through covenant families!


----------



## MW (Oct 8, 2014)

From the Directory for the Publick Worship of God: "The Son of God admitted little children into his presence, embracing and blessing them, saying, For of such is the kingdom of God."


----------



## SeanPatrickCornell (Oct 9, 2014)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Honestly, this is a sub-Christian statement. I can't believe you just wrote this.



I am going to pretend that what you ACTUALLY said was something like "I am not sure I am following what you are trying to say. Could you clarify that?"

Because I am pretty sure that as a Christian man who gives his brethren the benefit of the doubt, that this is much closer to what you meant to say.

My point is simple. We don't know the covenant status of anybody, yet we disciple virtually everybody. Ergo, I see no reason why anyone (Presbyterian or Baptist) ought to worry about whether it's ok to teach their children to pray before they make a profession of faith.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 11, 2014)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, this is a sub-Christian statement. I can't believe you just wrote this.
> ...



Consistency is everything; There is only one truth! The question to ask is 'Are all prayers efficacious-are they hitting the target-is one's prayer a blessing or an affront to God?' In discipling, is it not appropriate to supplant that discipleship with truths of scripture? Shall I tell my daughter on one hand that unregeneracy halts the prayer, that they bounce off the ceiling if Christ does not mediate and on the other it is ok to pray without mediation, that it is efficacious. Doesn't the fact that these are things that scripture speaks of in regard to making the unbeliever 'jealous' for the benefits that come with 'being in Christ'? 

Another contrasting point to consider would be people who we know are unbelievers; say, in the work setting. A person you work with comes to you with issues. This person is admittedly an unbeliever. He makes mention at times when you mention Church or things related to religion that he prays about certain things. When the trial comes, this person does make mention that he is praying about it. Do you treat his prayer attempts differently than you would with your child? Your reply to me might be, 'Scott, my daughter is in covenant, this gentleman is not!' I would only say, yes, I get your point, however, in the compound sense, covenant does not make one regenerate and the divided, yes they are set apart *by God* for kingdom business; much like the utensils in the temple. Their standing before God is that they are to 'improve upon the covenant sign that has been placed at birth'. This improving has requirements and my job of parenting her is to make sure she is guided correctly in truth. I stress these truths in all things-yes she is set apart, but so was Esau, Ishmael, etc. If she takes her baptism as serious, this is a good sign she is regenerate. My daughter hates to read her bible and pray; hsall I take the promises of the covenant and apply it to her hatred of God's word and her refusal to pray? 

I do teach my daughter to pray in the same way I teach her about the supper; she has a good fear of taking the supper irresponsibly; she knows that God could cause her to 'sleep' if she takes it without the mediation of Christ. In the same way, she understands that prayer is for believers....


----------



## Jack K (Oct 11, 2014)

If you say no, don't teach a child to pray if you think he's still an unbeliever.... How do you get around the problem of putting yourself in the position of judging children's faith and determining which of them are ready to be taught to pray? This seems terribly presumptuous and misguided to me. I usually assume a child's faith might well be stronger than my own, even if their understanding is less mature and the faith less practiced. We all pray with what little faith we have, seeking more from God.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 11, 2014)

Jack K said:


> If you say no, don't teach a child to pray if you think he's still an unbeliever.... How do you get around the problem of putting yourself in the position of judging children's faith and determining which of them are ready to be taught to pray? This seems terribly presumptuous and misguided to me. I usually assume a child's faith might well be stronger than my own, even if their understanding is less mature and the faith less practiced. We all pray with what little faith we have, seeking more from God.



Jack,
To be frank, I never said to not 'teach your children to pray'. I said above, "I do teach my daughter to pray in the same way I teach her about the supper". The rest of your statement is missing the biblical point. Have you read my paper?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 11, 2014)

Just for clarity, again, as I show in my paper, prayer is a means of grace. Means of grace are for believers. On the other hand, we are to teach our children how to pray in the same way the Lord taught the disciples. In the gospel accounts, you see clearly Jesus' emphatic reasoning about mediation. How does one reconcile that with a proposal that all can pray? Would you think the same of the devil worshipper who lives next door? Either everyone has access or only certain people do. Of course, one must consider the fact that God is omniscient. But thats different. God hearing all things is entirely different from prayers that are grace lined.


----------



## Jack K (Oct 11, 2014)

Scott Bushey said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > If you say no, don't teach a child to pray if you think he's still an unbeliever.... How do you get around the problem of putting yourself in the position of judging children's faith and determining which of them are ready to be taught to pray? This seems terribly presumptuous and misguided to me. I usually assume a child's faith might well be stronger than my own, even if their understanding is less mature and the faith less practiced. We all pray with what little faith we have, seeking more from God.
> ...



Scott, I'm happy to read your paper (provided it's a reasonable length), but I'm afraid I missed seeing where to find it. Could you provide a link, maybe?

I'm not out to discredit you or anyone who might think we shouldn't encourage our kids to pray until they profess faith. My question was sincere: I'm interested in the topic but wondering how the objection I brought up might be answered. It seems unavoidable to me that if we instruct anyone in faith and hope to make progress, prayer ought to be a part of that; not just instruction _about_ prayer, but actual practice of prayer on the part of both the teacher and the one being instructed. I might buy a different approach if one _knows_ the student is completely faithless, but how do we judge that and _who are we to judge it_, especially in a church-raised child? Hence, my question. Most people who've thought well about a topic have answers to questions like that, so I'm assuming you have an answer that makes some sense. Just wondering what that answer might be.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Oct 12, 2014)

Jack K said:


> Scott Bushey said:
> 
> 
> > Jack K said:
> ...



The needed distinctions in regards to the biblical doctrine on prayer, mediation, regeneracy vs unregeneracy, must be considered in one's tutelage of the child. It would be sinful to just teach a child to pray without all of those characteristics of prayer included in that teaching. My daughter knows that prayer is for the people of God; she understands that every Tom, Dick and Harry do not have access to the Holy throne room in the same capacity of a child of God and that the prayers of the unbeliever stink without mediation. In the same way, she trembles at taking the supper, if in fact she doesn't have surety in her position with God.


----------

