# Seminary without bachelors before hand?



## charliejunfan

Gentlemen,

I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?

Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?

I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.


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## Roldan

charliejunfan said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?
> 
> Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?
> 
> I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.



I have no college whatsoever and am currently in TNARS......free Reformed seminary check it out....


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## Curt

Charlie,

First of all, the bachelors degree does not have to come from a secular college or university.

Second, while education is not the determining factor to discern a call, education is important. Reformed Christians have always desired an educated clergy/eldership.

Third, education is good if it trains the student to think. Get as much as you can.


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## Jimmy the Greek

I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.

I notice TNARS is a bit different. I regard a "seminary" as a graduate school. However, TNARS starts with Associates, followed by Bachelors, as prerequisites for Masters. Go get 'em.


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## charliejunfan

Roldan said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?
> 
> Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?
> 
> I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not college whatsoever and am currently in TNARS......free Reformed seminary check it out....
Click to expand...


I actually have been planning to apply to TNARS even if I go to PRTS as well, all the Reformed theological/biblical knowledge I can get is welcomed.


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## Andres

Jimmy the Greek said:


> I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.





Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?


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## charliejunfan

Jimmy the Greek said:


> I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.
> 
> I notice TNARS is a bit different. I regard a "seminary" as a graduate school. However, TNARS starts with Associates, followed by Bachelors, as prerequisites for Masters. Go get 'em.



Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary allows for certain individuals to go through their MDIV etc..programs but the catch is that at the end you are rewarded a Bachelors degree instead of the Masters degree.

Oh, and, TNARS needs more mentors so that more men who are called can go there, Go get 'em


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## Guido's Brother

I would also encourage you to get as much education as you can. Even an education in a secular university can be of much benefit as background for training in the ministry. For example, not only is it possible to study biblical languages in many universities, but also Latin, French, and German which can also be enormously helpful for the study of Reformed theology. The study of English literature and history can also be quite beneficial in forming a man for the ministry. I've always been grateful for my BA at the University of Alberta. I had to take some courses that were a waste of time, but a lot of it was very valuable. 

For what it's worth.


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## Wayne

Greenville may also have a similar provision, allowing a man to move directly from a high school degree to seminary.

Historically, a seminary degree was a bachelor's degree [B.Div.--Bachelor of Divinity], but at least by the 20th century, seminaries began to require a college undergraduate degree for admission. Finally, circa 1960-65, the B.Div. degree was shifted over to an M.Div., in recognition of the prior bachelor's degree.

I agree with Wes--get as much education as you can. If I had it to do over, I would have done my undergrad in languages [Hebrew, Greek, Latin & German].


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## charliejunfan

Andres said:


> Jimmy the Greek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?
Click to expand...


Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible (Romans13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.). 

Thank you guys for all your advice, I certainly will get as much education as I can, I plan on definitely trying to get into TNARS.net as well as continuing up to a Doctorate from Puritan Reformed if I get in, and if I needed to learn Latin etc. I could just take single courses at a college instead of wasting the time spent learning things I will never use 

The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I taught myself Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do and the philosophy behind it and am now certified as one of 40 top instructors under Paul Vunak who has given 50 police agencies, Navy Seals, F.B.I., D.E.A., C.I.A., Marines, and Army their offensive/defensive fighting systems.
My teachers website is here Home (you can find my name in his instructor list under Charlie Barribeau) I did not link my new website to his page yet but it is hereHome
The reason I wrote that is to establish that I am pretty self willed(with the causing of the Holy Spirit)


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## Prufrock

charliejunfan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy the Greek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible
> ......
> The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I
Click to expand...


Charlie, I would submit that, though it may *seem* like it would be a waste of time and money, you will later be very grateful for that time of slow, diligent, _and guided_ learning. It certainly will not be a waste of time; and you don't have to go into large debt. It is very possible to go through school, working and earning enough to pay for it. Take time, study languages (Hebrew, Greek and Latin, if possible, and perhaps a modern language or two); study a bit of [the history of] philosophy -- it is very different than just picking up the books and reading some things yourself; instead of just reading literature, read it while sitting under professors whose job it is to understand it in ways you could never imagine; sit next to that other student who makes you feel so dumb with his intellect, and this will keep you far from complacency with your current state of understanding; be tested by a professor on the things which you think you have down so that you can find out that you don't really understand it at all, and still have a lot of work to do; write a paper, and get it back with the professor telling you that your thesis is unsustainable and that you have misused your references. Self-education is great, my friend, but there is another much more unbelievably rich resource in front of you. So, if you're preparing for an academically rigorous life, start off on the right foundation: it will save you much trouble and toil in the future, and make you much more effective at whatever work you find yourself doing.

From what you said, it sounds like you are a very motivated and willed person: that's quite admirable, and I pray that I could be as diligent. Just think, however, of what could be attained if you took that motivation and those abilities, and placed them within the context of brilliant professors whose job is to nurture those qualities and direct them in the best path.


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## charliejunfan

Prufrock said:


> charliejunfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible
> ......
> The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something. I
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Charlie, I would submit that, though it may *seem* like it would be a waste of time and money, you will later be very grateful for that time of slow, diligent, _and guided_ learning. It certainly will not be a waste of time; and you don't have to go into large debt. It is very possible to go through school, working and earning enough to pay for it. Take time, study languages (Hebrew, Greek and Latin, if possible, and perhaps a modern language or two); study a bit of [the history of] philosophy -- it is very different than just picking up the books and reading some things yourself; instead of just reading literature, read it while sitting under professors whose job it is to understand it in ways you could never imagine; sit next to that other student who makes you feel so dumb with his intellect, and this will keep you far from complacency with your current state of understanding; be tested by a professor on the things which you think you have down so that you can find out that you don't really understand it at all, and still have a lot of work to do; write a paper, and get it back with the professor telling you that your thesis is unsustainable and that you have misused your references. Self-education is great, my friend, but there is another much more unbelievably rich resource in front of you. So, if you're preparing for an academically rigorous life, start off on the right foundation: it will save you much trouble and toil in the future, and make you much more effective at whatever work you find yourself doing.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the advice Paul, I will seriously consider it. 

(my thank button doesn't exist right now lol)


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## SemperEruditio

charliejunfan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy the Greek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was unaware that one could get into seminary without a Bachelor degree or equivalent. I thought any Masters degree required a bachelors degree as a prerequisite.  Maybe some credit life experience in related work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you want to get your Bachelors first?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it would be a waste of time and money, also it would needlessly add on debt, and I believe debt is a very serious thing which should be avoided any time possible (Romans13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.).
> 
> Thank you guys for all your advice, I certainly will get as much education as I can, I plan on definitely trying to get into TNARS.net as well as continuing up to a Doctorate from Puritan Reformed if I get in, and if I needed to learn Latin etc. I could just take single courses at a college instead of wasting the time spent learning things I will never use
> 
> The only thing secular schools have to offer that is of interest to me is philosophy, English, and Greek IF they even offered it, and anyways, I can learn all of that on my own, *I am pretty self willed when I am interested in something.* I taught myself Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do and the philosophy behind it and am now certified as one of 40 top instructors under Paul Vunak who has given 50 police agencies, Navy Seals, F.B.I., D.E.A., C.I.A., Marines, and Army their offensive/defensive fighting systems.
> My teachers website is here Home (you can find my name in his instructor list under Charlie Barribeau) I did not link my new website to his page yet but it is hereHome
> The reason I wrote that is to establish that I am pretty self willed(with the causing of the Holy Spirit)
Click to expand...


No offense there brother but everyone is self-willed when interested in something. The discipline is when you are not interested in something and still moving forward. You are presenting a scenario as if it were impossible to attain an undergraduate education without incurring massive debt. I know people who have done it without debt. They did not complete in 4 years but they did finish and then did the same thing for graduate school. It can be done. Since it sounds like your goal is a Ph.D. it concerns me that someone interested in teaching is not interested in being taught. Besides how do you know you will never use things you've been taught. I took not 1 but 3 psych classes that I abhorred but I can see their use now when people come with psycho nonsense. As a JKD instructor you know well about taking what is useful and discarding the rest. The problem is you are deciding what is useful before taking anything.


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## Montanablue

I'm not a seminarian, but I have 2 useful (I think) things to say. Then I will bow out. 

1. I got my bachelors in 4 years with no debt. I went to a secular state school, worked part time, kept my grades up to get merit scholarships, and got only 1 (small) need based grant. It can be done, especially if you go to community college first to take some of your gen eds at a lower cost. And despite being a secular school, I learned many things that I am able to apply to my Christian walk.

2. I would be extremely hesitant to sit under a pastor who did not have his bachelor's degree, especially for the reasons you give. I respect someone who is willing to be taught - even by those with whom he disagrees.


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Some seminaries, I believe, will admit people who have no undergraduate degree. But these are exceptions. It usually applies only to older men or folk with special circumstances.
I have two undergraduates- Business and Nursing and I would not recommend seminary, which is grad school, without having gone through the rigor of academic study prior to arrival at seminary.
Seminary is demanding. There is a lot of work, a lot of reading (I have one class this semester that requires 1200+ pages that counts towards your final grade), many small ongoing assignments as well as larger assignments that require research abilities and of course exams. My experience of undergrad has helped to discipline me in that oftentimes there is work that I really just don't want to do or other stuff that I want to overly focus on because it pleases me. Undergrad is really good prep for this.
Aside from the academic there is also the spiritual aspect at seminary. Satan does not want you to be there. You will often be doing battle as it were with temptation, struggling with calling, discouragement form your own perceived abilities and shortcomings. Also in many ways you will be confronted with your own sin and how God is exposing that and dealing with it in your life.
I also think that life experience is invaluable when it comes to serving in the church. For example the thought of shepherding, nurturing, protecting, teaching God's people, sharing the good news of the gospel with unbelievers, ministering to young, old and in between, dealing with the broken hearted, discouraged, backslidden or stubborn terrifies me. It is an immense responsibility. Yet as an RN I have responsibility for peoples lives. I am charged with people's safety, I administer drugs that could be fatal, I perform CPR, I listen to people's stories, I serve and minister to them already just in a different capacity. 
Don't get me wrong I count myself privileged to be at Covenant. Some of my classes and professors are awesome and I am learning a lot. It's busy, I am broke, I am tired, I want this semester to be over, but I am excited about next semester's classes, I want to be able to use this knowledge to better serve God's people, I am excited yet nervous about being an officer in God's church. All in all its an awesome experience. 
Now I have to go do some work.


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## El Tejano

charliejunfan said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?



I would agree with those who have mentioned the preference of Reformed communions for educated clergy. (I'm sure they all are glad of it, too!) But I am reminded of something John Frame said about Reformed communions and the paucity of minorities both in the pews and among the leadership. He said in his estimation one of the problems is formal educational requirements which most minorities simply cannot afford, requirements, moreover, which he believes exceed the qualification set forth in Scripture. (You may not be a minority, but the matter of prohibitive cost is still an issue, I gather.)

It is true that there are financial aid programs, but even so, those are difficult to come by. One would like to think that the church could do better than to follow what has become the world's method of theological preparation and study. There is a distinction between being educated and having a degree. This country is producing multitudes of the latter, and precious few of the former. The point is to be able to read, to write and to think, _with excellence_.

If it's time and money you don't want to waste, it is your time and your money. However, I side with those who would urge you to reconsider. If, on the other hand, it's money you don't _have_, then you are wise to try to get the knowledge and the skills, even without the sheepskin. A proper reading list, and an excellent tutor, can have you better trained than some with those sheepskins. (I know because I have met some of those. I'm sure we all have.)

May I commend to you, Herman Witsius on _The Character of a True Theologian_? He spells out in general terms what he thinks a proper curriculum should look like. You may find it quite edifying and affirming.

Finally, in the interests of full disclosure, I might add that I possess both the B.A. (Texas Tech University, 1993) and the M.Div. (New Geneva Theological Seminary, 2003) and am preparing to begin a Th.M. program.


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## BobVigneault

Paul and Frank gave great advice Charlie. You need to be involved in a real learning environment that will slowly help you uncover the gaps in your systematic knowledge AND your social skills. Being a pastor is a calling that involves above average social skills and a solid foundation. It's not just the knowledge off of a page that educates, it's dealing with the challenge of hard headed profs and obstinate roommates, holding down a job to pay for your semester, and the bonds that are made through the common experiences.

I personally have encountered too many young men who have tried to fast track into ministry and the results were tragic. Online learning is great if you are going to have an online ministry but we don't call those people pastors - we call them bloggers.


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## CDM

GPTS and other seminaries offer a B.Div if one does not have a Bachelors degree. The B.Div is the exact same curriculum as the M.Div. It has the same classes and requirements but it is awarded to those without a Bachelors.

Anything you can do, including receiving a Bachelor's first, to make your seminary training more profitable is a good thing.


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## reformedminister

Whitefiled Theological Seminary allows you to take their MDiv courses for a Bachelor of Divinity. If you later get your Bachelors, they will change it to an MDiv. However, I would get your Bachelors degree first.


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## Michael Doyle

charliejunfan said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I was wondering if there are any of you who attended a seminary without first going through the 4yrs of secular education, and would you take that route again if you could do it all over?
> 
> Oh, and, did you attend other seminaries thereafter to get a Masters as opposed to just a seminary Bachelors degree? and if you hadn't gone through seminary twice to get up to a Masters would you have been nearly as successful?
> 
> I am asking because I am interested in trying to get into Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary without getting my bachelors prior. I desire to be a Pastor someday but I know that right now I am not ready considering the qualifications, therefore I would like to go so that I can possibly teach or write about theology.



Charlie,

PM me if you would be interested in learning about LAMP seminary which is running through my church. It will allow for a B div and has the hands on training through pastors and elders. I am finding it very beneficial indeed.


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## Nathan Riese

I suggest getting a B.Div instead of a master's. Ask PRTS is they'll enter you into a B.Div program instead of a master's program. The B.Div is good enough grounds for going through the ordination process. It's basically the same as a M.Div, just without a prior bachelor's, which is what you're asking for.


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## David J Houston

*...*

Although I haven't been to seminary yet I am grateful for my secular B.A in philosophy with a minor in religious studies. Although I rarely learned in class from the professors they did challenge me enough to motivate me to study hard so that I knew the material well enough to argue against them when they attacked the faith. Surprisingly, it was the religious studies guys who were the worst for being blatantly anti-christian! It was the philosophers that tended to be more accepting and even hear me out. But they too were in a sad state... some of them were obviously humbled by the fact that after years of schooling and a Ph.D beside their name they still had not figured out what they were studying... 

Also, if I could go back in time I'd lose the religious studies degree and do languages or linguistics. Far more useful for seminary than religious studies aka regurgitate Ehrman classes.


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## Wayne

Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option? 

The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.


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## CDM

Wayne said:


> Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option?
> 
> The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.



GPTS has as one of its requirments for the *B.Div*, that men must be at least 30 years old. As I noted before, the B.Div is actually the compelte M.Div program, but it is awarded to those without a Bachelor's. Greenville recognizes that future Pastor's need training regardless if they have a prior degree or not.


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## Curt

Wayne said:


> Perhaps this question should start a new thread, but with Whitefield, Greenville, PRTS and LAMP all offering the B.Div. option, are we seeing a trend in that direction--a demand that these seminaries have had the foresight to serve, and what will be the outcomes, both positive and negative, if increasingly men take this option?
> 
> The Bawb has offered some of the negatives. Personally I don't think a man should be a pastor until he is at least 30 years old. The current college/seminary track works to that end somewhat. But in terms of common sense and life wisdom, it might be far better to have learned a trade and worked for a while before entering the pastorate.



 and


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## GD

I think R. Scott Clark has articulated some really valuable thoughts on seminary education from a professor’s perspective here and here. My opinion from the perspective of a seminary grad is this: seek the very best school you can. You only have one chance to go to seminary so don’t waste it. Having been to a ho-hum school for the MDiv, then great schools for the ThM and PhD (still in progress), there’s no comparison. Having high quality guidance from professors, challenging discussions with gifted peers, and high standards for writing and research makes the learning curve dramatically higher. Regarding distance learning, I have yet to see the asynchronous posting software that can remotely duplicate the pressures/benefits of face-to-face seminar discussion. 

Bottom line – If God has called us to a task, then we should take the preparation for that task with great seriousness. If you can’t arrange now to go where you’ll get the best training for ministry, wait, pray, and read widely until you can. Some confessional suggestions: Westminster Seminary California (US students), Free Church Theological College (UK students). Non-confessional suggestions: Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (US students), London School of Theology (UK students).


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## jawyman

Just a heads up for you brother, PRTS does not offer Doctorate degrees and they are also not authorized to award Bachelor's degrees. When a man comes to PRTS without the BA, he will be awarded a "Diploma". 

As a student at PRTS I would suggest you study for a BA first. The languages and a foundation in Philosophy will help you a lot. Also, when you earn your BA, no one can take that away from you. You would always have your degree and be far more marketable to future employers if you were ever leave the ministry.

This is just my opinion. Earn the BA first. If you are interested in distance education I would suggest checking out Thomas Edison State College in NJ. Here is the website and they offer BAs in Religious Studies as well as Philosophy. Thomas Edison State College


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## charliejunfan

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......with all these suggestions to get a Bachelors first I might have to do so.......................


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## jogri17

You cannot get a masters from any accreditated university or seminary with out a BA. You may enroll in SOME seminaries and do the Mdiv program but you will get the title Bdiv or Bth. Patience is a virtue and if you are not willing to get either a BA or a Bdiv and you just want the title maybe you ought to prayerfully reconsider your vocation.


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## Ivan

Bachelor first.


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## mjmacvey

First, I agree with everyone who has replied to the OP about the importance of earning a BA/BS prior to attending seminary. That said, I want to point out that it *is possible* to gain admission to an M.Div. program and earn an M.Div. degree at an accredited seminary without a bachelor's degree. Seminaries accredited by the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) (including WSC, WTS, RTS, CTS) can admit a limited number of students to the M.Div. program without a Bachelor's degree. 

From the ATS Standards:

_A.4.1.2 As many as 10 percent of the students in the MDiv degree program
may be admitted without possession of the baccalaureate degree
or its educational equivalent, if the institution can demonstrate by some
objective means that these persons possess the knowledge, academic skill,
and ability generally associated with persons who hold the baccalaureate
degree. Admission of such applicants should be restricted to persons
with life experience that has prepared them for theological study at the
graduate level._

Each seminary has some flexibility in setting the admissions standards for these applicants and some are more rigorous than others. WSC requires quite a bit (if you are curious): MDIV SPECIAL STUDENT 

Admission is probational for the first year, after which the student can gain full admission to the M.Div. program. Those who complete the program are granted an M.Div. degree (not a B.Div.). ATS allows this for the M.Div. program (not M.A.s) because it is considered a professional or terminal degree as opposed to an academic degree. 

In my 5 years at WSC we have admitted fewer than 10 students to the M.Div. Special Student program. We have denied far more than we have admitted because we see the value of a solid undergraduate education.


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## charliejunfan

jogri17 said:


> You cannot get a masters from any accreditated university or seminary with out a BA. You may enroll in SOME seminaries and do the Mdiv program but you will get the title Bdiv or Bth. Patience is a virtue and if you are not willing to get either a BA or a Bdiv and you just want the title maybe you ought to prayerfully reconsider your vocation.



It is not that I am unwilling to get a BA, it is mostly a financial problem 
Oh and, no matter what anyone says, Algebra is stupid , I will never need it beyond the ability to grade papers which virtually anyone can teach me.

Some(not necessarily on the pb) have used the "It will teach you discipline" argument which I don't fall for because if I really wanted to learn discipline I would be better off baby sitting children than spending countless hours tearing my hair out because of Algebraic "word" problems that are made up of bland numbers.

Whether I will end up having to do Algebra or not I think I have found a University that I will attempt to apply to .

-----Added 12/17/2009 at 01:16:03 EST-----

After reading all of your replies and studying scripture/theological writings on debt I think I will be applying to a University soon.

Concordia University Chicago offers a major in Theological Languages(Greek, Hebrew, and Latin) and a minor in Philosophy(I may vice versa the one I major in...).
Concordia University Chicago

I think you will all agree that Languages and Philosophy are best when preparing for seminary...

Concordia also has the advantage of being a Christian friendly learning institution as it is a University of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod(My girlfriend brought the school to my attention, her dad is a LCMS pastor  ). 
Plus Chicago is just really cool!


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## N. Eshelman

Personally, as a PRTS grad, I think that it would be VERY RARE for a student to be able to keep up with the cirriculum at PRTS without under-graduate training. The foundations of logic, philosophy, world history, and some language (preferably Greek) are NECESSARY for the academic rigor of Puritan Seminary. I promise! 

Plus, as Jeff has noted- they do NOT offer a Bachelor's, but will award a 'diploma'; meaning that you have done the course work- but no degree is able to be awarded without the prerequisites. 

Here is what they offer by way of degrees: 
Degree Programs - PRTS

Just do the hard work and go to college first. If God has called you to serve- he can get you through a Bachelor's program. You will not regret the foundation, brother.


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## MLCOPE2

If the education is the same what benefit would there be to earning a "degree" over a "diploma". If I'm not mistaken it's the preparation for ministry that is key not the title earned.


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## JonathanHunt

David G said:


> Non-confessional suggestions: Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (US students), London School of Theology (UK students).



For UK Students:

Far better is the London Theological Seminary, or if you want accreditation, the Wales Evangelical School of Theology (WEST)


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## Der Pilger

charliejunfan said:


> It is not that I am unwilling to get a BA, it is mostly a financial problem
> Oh and, no matter what anyone says, Algebra is stupid , I will never need it beyond the ability to grade papers which virtually anyone can teach me.



Are you absolutely, 100% certain you will never need to know it? What if your plans change down the road and you suddenly decide to go into IT? But don't worry: Unless you major in a discipline that requires it, such as computer science, you more than likely will not be required to study any algebra.

Having said that, I wouldn't write off math as being useless. Studying it can teach you how to think logically and with precision. Not that other disciplines can't do that, but it's just to say that math can be useful even for those who might not have a practical or vocational need to study it.

And besides, isn't math--like all truth--from God?

-----Added 12/17/2009 at 08:33:45 EST-----



charliejunfan said:


> After reading all of your replies and studying scripture/theological writings on debt I think I will be applying to a University soon.
> 
> Concordia University Chicago offers a major in Theological Languages(Greek, Hebrew, and Latin) and a minor in Philosophy(I may vice versa the one I major in...).
> Concordia University Chicago
> 
> I think you will all agree that Languages and Philosophy are best when preparing for seminary...



This made me think of something else just now. It's a bit OT, so please bear with me as I think it's important. First off, congratulations on your decision to get your bachelor's degree. Second, as you yourself have indicated, earning a degree is a considerable investment in time, money and effort. With that in mind, I think you would be wise to ascertain your calling to the ministry (if you have not yet done so) before laying out the money and time for a seminary-preparation degree.


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## jogri17

Listen my friend, I am 22 and not done with my undergrad work and I am graduating two years later than the average american would because I moved to QUébec to do my undergraduate work in French because of my dedication to the ministry in Québec. I could go off to seminary here in Montréal and get what they call the Bth (Bach. in theology) which is just the M.Div but for those with out a BA however It would be very dumb on my part because the more you rush to seminary without any higher level academic training (i am also studying greek and latin here as an undergrad as well as my degree in French) you may find youself way in and over your head. Can you several 5-10 page papers in a week? You commented that you don't need algebra, yet for most of Church history the requirement that infact required not only pastors be familiar with algebra because of its basic level in mathematics but chemistry, biology, chemistry, astromony, etc... With all due respect sir, with that kind of attitude torwards the natural sciences I can honestly say that very few reformed church would consider calling you. Even pastors whom do not have seminary training are usually men unually gifted and have a firm grasp on the natural sciences (MLJ, Spurgeon, Baxter, etc...). As for financial issues... well i avoided that by going to school in Canada because American schools you pay more and get less. It's supply and demand. They will charge you however much they can if the people are willing and one needs higher level of education to some extent thus because they are horribly regulated by the states so they charge you extreme amounts of money compared to any other university in the world and americans always test on the lower end.


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## A.J.

Charles, another advantage I can think of in having a bachelor's degree first is the fact that you will eventually work for your future family. It's obviously less difficult to find a decent job if you have graduated with a college degree. 

I almost failed my college algebra  but by God's grace I passed and later obtained my bachelor's degree (in the humanities). I'm 22 and am also thinking of becoming a seminary student in the future. 

Blessings!


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## Herald

Secondary education before seminary is advisable, if not essential, because it equips the student with the necessary skill sets to succeed in advanced learning. I've been appalled at the abysmal writing and critical thinking skills exhibited by men who want to pursue ministry. Having your mind stretched, so that you know _how _to learn, is just as important as learning Greek or Hebrew. 

Are their alternatives to a formal bachelors degree? Yes, but they take extra effort and require accountability. There are ministerial academies such as RBS or MWCTS that require the commendation and oversight of your local church. The student is being mentored by their pastor/elders while taking an academic course load. This is as much a philosophy of ministry as it is an alternative form of biblical training. But even with ministerial academies, the individual needs a well-rounded education. I would argue that education should _exceed _high school. A mind that has been trained in English grammar and composition will be better prepared to handle doing research and writing papers. A mind that has been trained in college level mathematics will be more able to grasp conceptual subjects like languages. History (ancient, western civilization, modern) will provide the necessary perspective about the world we live in. I could go on, but I'll stop here. 

The last thing I will comment on is the motivation behind seminary training. In other words, why do you wish to attend seminary? Have you been under the care of elders who have been able to assess and evaluate your call? Have they recognized in your life, what Spurgeon called, "ministerial graces?" I would counsel every young man who aspires to be a minister of the gospel to submit to their elders in this area. Make known to them your desire and ask for their help. They are under scriptural command to seek out men for this purpose (2 Timothy 2:2).


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## JDKetterman

About 8 months ago, I was considering going to seminary without my BA, but I wanted to have more options in seminaries, and most Reformed churches require a bachelor degree.

What I ended up doing is going to a dispensational college where I am challenged all the time. I am getting my degree in Biblical studies. While there is a great deal I disagree with, the school leans towards reformed soteriology. A great thing too is that I'll only have about a year left. So far, its been very rewarding.


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## Susanna

I personally would LOVE to find a seminary full of bachelors! 



I crack myself up.


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## BobVigneault

You crack me up too Sue. Good one. Thanks!


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## fredtgreco

Herald said:


> Secondary education before seminary is advisable, if not essential, because it equips the student with the necessary skill sets to succeed in advanced learning. I've been appalled at the abysmal writing and critical thinking skills exhibited by men who want to pursue ministry. Having your mind stretched, so that you know _how _to learn, is just as important as learning Greek or Hebrew.
> 
> Are their alternatives to a formal bachelors degree? Yes, but they take extra effort and require accountability. There are ministerial academies such as RBS or MWCTS that require the commendation and oversight of your local church. The student is being mentored by their pastor/elders while taking an academic course load. This is as much a philosophy of ministry as it is an alternative form of biblical training. But even with ministerial academies, the individual needs a well-rounded education. I would argue that education should _exceed _high school. A mind that has been trained in English grammar and composition will be better prepared to handle doing research and writing papers. A mind that has been trained in college level mathematics will be more able to grasp conceptual subjects like languages. History (ancient, western civilization, modern) will provide the necessary perspective about the world we live in. I could go on, but I'll stop here.
> 
> The last thing I will comment on is the motivation behind seminary training. In other words, why do you wish to attend seminary? Have you been under the care of elders who have been able to assess and evaluate your call? Have they recognized in your life, what Spurgeon called, "ministerial graces?" I would counsel every young man who aspires to be a minister of the gospel to submit to their elders in this area. Make known to them your desire and ask for their help. They are under scriptural command to seek out men for this purpose (2 Timothy 2:2).



I would echo this. Unless you are under the care of elders who are assessing your gifts and calling, you should not even be considering seminary _much less a fast track_ through seminary.

To do so is complete foolishness.


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## Megan Mozart

Charlie, we worry so much about you and we love you very much. I pray for you every day.

I would say a lot more but it's not my place to do that. You probably know what I would say anyway, no?


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## N. Eshelman

fredtgreco said:


> I would echo this. Unless you are under the care of elders who are assessing your gifts and calling, you should not even be considering seminary _much less a fast track_ through seminary.
> 
> To do so is complete foolishness.



Harsh words from Fred... and I could't agree more! I would talk with your session and presbytery and make sure that you are moving in the right direction. We live in a microwave culture and we WANT IT NOW! 

Slow down- discern- do what is right. You are Presbyterian- there is a way that we do these things.


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## Megan Mozart

You want an answer to your question? Think about what Matt and I would probably say, as we know you better than anyone else on this board.


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