# Who Are The NT Warnings For?



## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 14, 2018)

So, in talking with our Baptist friend, the main hurdle right now is showing him that the NT Warnings are for believers. With this, he will have to see the new covenant as mixed. Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers. Any help clarifying this will be great. 

P.S. doesn't the LBC talk about Scriptures warnings for the believers?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 14, 2018)

"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14

It calls into question the reliability of God's attributes. God would be rather foolish to have written down, communicated (preached), and require belief in warnings that can neither be known, or discerned by those who are lost.

"Unless a man IS born again, he cannot perceive anything (see) about the kingdom of heaven." John 3:3.

Only the regenerate can spiritually discern Scripture, which is part of the fruit of righteouness of the Spirit's work.

(This does not argue for the neglect of indiscriminate preaching to all.)

It also completely flies in the face of church discipline, and covenated church membership.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smeagol (Oct 14, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So, in talking with our Baptist friend, the main hurdle right now is showing him that the NT Warnings are for believers. With this, he will have to see the new covenant as mixed. Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers. Any help clarifying this will be great.
> 
> P.S. doesn't the LBC talk about Scriptures warnings for the believers?


If some of the warnings were given in letters to Churches, which they were, then I am not seeing why it is hard for him to understand. This gentleman is sounding more and more like one who may be divisive.

P.S. Satan tried to tell Eve that God did not really “mean” the death edict he gave (hence beware of anyone who tries to overlook the Warnings God gives to believers). Make no mistake, our flesh as believers NEEDS to hear the warning passages, lest we take God’s Grace for granted. Sounds like this person is in a dangerous place in my opinion.

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## Edward (Oct 14, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers.



What kind of mental gymnastics must he do to say that, for example, Philippians 4:6 is not targeted to believers? Romans 12? Matthew 6:5? Matthew 6:16-18?

Or will he just say, "I didn't mean THOSE warnings"


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 14, 2018)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14
> 
> It calls into question the reliability of God's attributes. God would be rather foolish to have written down, communicated (preached), and require belief in warnings that can neither be known, or discerned by those who are lost.
> 
> ...


Right on, and very reasonable. Thank you so much. I just sent that to him to see what he says.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 14, 2018)

Edward said:


> What kind of mental gymnastics must he do to say that, for example, Philippians 4:6 is not targeted to believers? Romans 12? Matthew 6:5? Matthew 6:16-18?
> 
> Or will he just say, "I didn't mean THOSE warnings"


I just looked at the verses, and didn't really see clear warnings in them. Are you sure you typed the right ones, or am I missing it? 

His answer is that warnings and fear in the new covenant are dealing only with the unbelievers in the congregation, and not meant for the elect. He uses the verse "There is no fear in perfect love" to justify his position.


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## Edward (Oct 14, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> He uses the verse "There is no fear in perfect love" to justify his position.



Here's the warning in that Chapter: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." 

His quoted verse above has no warning about what to do or not do.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 14, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> He uses the verse "There is no fear in perfect love" to justify his position.



Maybe so, but it is clear that John, in 1 John, is addressing imperfect believers with imperfect love. The whole book is a sequence of exhortations and warnings.

Why would he have to tell perfected saints that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."? (1 Jn. 1:8 ). And later in 2:4 he tells us that if we claim to know Christ but don't keep his commandments, we are liars. That is very strong language causing us to sit up and examine ourselves.

Warnings abound, and are meant for us, so that we may be chastened sons and daughters instead of illegitimate and homeless urchins. (See Hebrews 12:7-8)

Reactions: Like 1


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## timfost (Oct 14, 2018)

"Nevertheless if you *warn* the righteous _man_ that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took *warning*; also you will have delivered your soul." (Ezek. 3:21)

"I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I *warn* _you." _(1 Cor. 4:14)

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## brendanchatt (Oct 14, 2018)

Hebrews 4:1 and Hebrews 6:9 are to the same audience, hence he warns those he is persuaded do believe.

Ch. 4 vv 11-16 also give a warning to those who have a great high priest.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 15, 2018)

WCF 17.2:
"This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will." 

Nothing in us as believers in and of ourselves causes us to persevere. Rather our perseverance at least minimally depends upon "the abiding of the Spirit" (_op. cit._). Hence we are to be always working out our salvation with fear and trembling, making our calling and election sure.

Obedience is not a foreign concept to Calvinism, despite some that, by their arguments for Calvinism often imply. No one is doing that here, however. The doctrines of grace are _unto good works_.

T does not abrogate _duty_
U ordains the elect to good works, holiness, eternal happiness
L cleanses us from wickedness such that we are zealously working good works
I denies our lusts for the world, to live righteously
P enables our steadfastness to the end and our glory

One of the _means_ of God by which the faithful persevere is by the warnings in Scripture. The faithful are warned of the dire consequences, thus the faithful are _stirred up_ by these warnings, such that they indeed persevere per the ordination of God.

1 John 4:17 provides context for the appealed to 1 John 4:18:
_Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world_.

The believer has no fear of the judgment to come, for the believer is _in Christ_ (Romans 8:1). Perseverance is ongoing in our walk of faith, contrary to the punctiliar notions of OSAS. Believers will be obedient. Yet, how are they to be obedient if obedience has not been explained and proper warnings for disobedience pronounced? Merely telling a child to not stick his finger into the fire will only increase his curiosity. But telling him to not stick his finger into the fire else he will be terribly burned eliminates the curiosity and achieves the desired result.

As Matthew noted above, none of the warnings make sense to the unbeliever, for the unbeliever...

- is *deceitful* and *desperately sick* (Jer. 17:9);
- is *full of evil* (Mark 7:21-23);
- is *not able* to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- *must be quickened* by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- *cannot choose righteousness* until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- *loves darkness* rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, *does not seek for God* (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is *helpless* and *ungodly* (Rom. 5:6);
- is *dead in his trespasses* and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a *child of wrath* (Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3;Eph. 2:3);
- *cannot understand* spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a *slave of sin* (Rom. 6:16-20).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## deleteduser99 (Oct 15, 2018)

The whole book of Hebrews is for professing believers, and the warning passages are explicitly pointed toward professing believers who are at risk of turning back. The book makes no sense if the warnings are pointed to unbelievers. Those with no church connection cannot drift away—they’re already far off. They can’t drink up the rain fruitlessly because they’re not getting the rain. They cannot trample the blood of Christ so severely as an apostate does. They are not a bitter root in the camp because they don’t even pretend to be in the camp. Their status as unbelievers isn’t revealed until their departure from the faith or their failure to reach Canaan.

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## Ben Zartman (Oct 15, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So, in talking with our Baptist friend, the main hurdle right now is showing him that the NT Warnings are for believers. With this, he will have to see the new covenant as mixed. Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers. Any help clarifying this will be great.
> 
> P.S. doesn't the LBC talk about Scriptures warnings for the believers?


LBCF chapter 19 paragraph 6 discusses the relation between the believer and the law, in that the warnings, or threatenings, are a means to sanctification in a reminder of what the law requires and what punishment its breaking deserves (though that punishment was borne by Another).
But though the Baptists see the NT warnings as for believers (your friend is simply mistaken), there is no logical connection between warning believers and a mixed covenant membership. You'll have to try a different approach to get him to paedobaptize....

Reactions: Informative 1 | Amen 1


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## VictorBravo (Oct 15, 2018)

Ben Zartman said:


> there is no logical connection between warning believers and a mixed covenant membership. You'll have to try a different approach to get him to paedobaptize....



Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to and got sidetracked.

Assuming that warnings to believers means a mixed covenant implies that believers are not the ones needing warnings. The apostles clearly thought otherwise.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## chuckd (Oct 15, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So, in talking with our Baptist friend, the main hurdle right now is showing him that the NT Warnings are for believers. With this, he will have to see the new covenant as mixed. *Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers*. Any help clarifying this will be great.
> 
> P.S. doesn't the LBC talk about Scriptures warnings for the believers?


Ask him to point out the unbelievers in the church so we can remove them.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So, in talking with our Baptist friend, the main hurdle right now is showing him that the NT Warnings are for believers. With this, he will have to see the new covenant as mixed. Right now, he says the warnings are only for unbelievers. Any help clarifying this will be great.
> 
> P.S. doesn't the LBC talk about Scriptures warnings for the believers?


Atr you discusiing with Him those passages that would relate to those who are merely professing faith in Jesus but were not saved, or were they some other passage?


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