# Finally, Discerning Reader Responds



## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

Typical...This is in response to my sixth e-mail. The first four asked for an update to my order. The fifth asked them politely to refund my order. None of those five (over a month period) received a response. This was the sixth e-mail that I sent this morning: 



> This is my sixth e-mail regarding order:--- Will I receive a response this time? Doubtful, since I haven't received one for the other times I've used this form over the past month.
> 
> Are you in the process of refunding my money? Do you need the VISA number to expedite that process? I need to know these things, so that I can start the process of ordering my books that were needed, now weeks ago, from a company that will actually send them and not ignore their customers.
> 
> In the past, I was unsure why the customers who reported your company to the Better Business Bureau had done so, but now I understand why. Please respond to my multiple requests before I am forced to do the same (really, have you left any other options?)



Amazingly enough, I received a response within the hour.



> Did it dawn on you that we are just overloaded with requests, Kyle?
> 
> Well, if you report is to the BBB you are in clear violation of Paul's
> command to the Corinthians in chapter 6, Kyle.
> ...


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## john_Mark (Feb 11, 2005)




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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2005)

oh my........


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## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

I'm not even going to respond. I'm so mad right now.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2005)

Kyle,
Don't forget:

Mat 5:22 But I say to you, Everyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to the Judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever says, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of Hell.


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## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

"without cause" is the key word....


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2005)

You know I was being facetious; thats why I put  in the post.


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## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

I knew you were.


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## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

Just got this one from Paul...it's good to know he's a boardie...



> I should have known you had "Reformed" leanings, Kyle. Reformed people tend to lack the very grace they speak so much about.
> 
> I have sent the Piper book, we are refunding the Edwards set and trust you will do your shopping somewhere else in the future.



Paul, we would love to have your thoughts on the situation.


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## Ranger (Feb 11, 2005)

Maybe he is assuming that from my book orders, but it's odd that it would happen later in the day after posting here.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 11, 2005)

> I should have known you had "Reformed" leanings, Kyle. Reformed people tend to lack the very grace they speak so much about.


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ranger_
> Just got this one from Paul...it's good to know he's a boardie...
> 
> 
> ...



Yea, we understand that Jesus was a man, not some emasculated jelly fish that just yes's everyone to boredom.


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## fredtgreco (Feb 11, 2005)

Kyle,

Might I suggest that you respond by asking for the contact information for the ecclesiastical authority over the company or those who own the company so that you can bring a formal charge for church discipline instead of complaining to the BBB?

You see the problem is that these folks want to abuse Paul's words in order to avoid ANY accountability. My guess is that they know that there is no church authority to appeal to, and hence that is why they leave you in that position. The problem is that they have already proven themselves to be a blight on the body of Christ for breaking the 8th and 9th commandments against you. They have stolen your money for whatever period of time they have had it, and now they are sullying your reputation. This is yet another reason why no one should ever buy anything from them.


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## nicnap (Feb 11, 2005)

Ranger,

I am in the fourth year (honestly-it has been four years) of waiting for The Mortification of Sin by Owen. I called at least every other month for the first 2 years, and then about once a quarter the third, and now I have just given up on getting my books or my money back from them...I got Owen from elsewhere.


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## AdamM (Feb 11, 2005)

Kyle, I think Fred’s take on the situation is correct. As Christians since their work is unto Christ, the service from Discerning Reader should be noticeably BETTER, as compared to other firms. I just can’t understand how you as Christian are wrong to expect any organization to live up to promises made? It seems to me that the owner(s) of Discerning Reader have broken their vow to you and in doing so have borne false witness by promising to ship your products promptly and then not followed through. Also, you may want to check with Visa or Mastercard, so they can hold payment to DR if you have been charged in the past for merchandise that hasn’t been shipped.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 11, 2005)

I ordered from them while in undergrad and while I was very impressed by the professionalism of the web site and frankly I still check it out every few months if only to see if any new good Reformed books have come... Though, my order wasn't complete all at once, and my hardcover ESV study Bible came without the cover and a huge scratch across the cover.


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## blhowes (Feb 11, 2005)

> I should have known you had "Reformed" leanings, Kyle. Reformed people tend to lack the very grace they speak so much about.
> 
> I have sent the Piper book, we are refunding the Edwards set and trust you will do your shopping somewhere else in the future.



Kyle,
I was just curious if Paul ended this second correspondence with you the same way as the first: "Customer Care @ The DR"?

It seems almost funny to have that at the end of a correspondence and treat a customer the way he did. I can't recall somebody in Customer Care/Service in a secular company ever treating me that way, let alone somebody in a Christian organization.


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## doulosChristou (Feb 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Kyle,
> 
> Might I suggest that you respond by asking for the contact information for the ecclesiastical authority over the company or those who own the company so that you can bring a formal charge for church discipline instead of complaining to the BBB?
> ...



 It's amazing to see that DR is still in business. I received no service from them also. It took multiple attempts at correspondence over many weeks for me too to receive a scolding message. As a result of actually wanting to receive the books I had paid for, I was told, "Christianity is ultimately about grace -- something you obviously lack." A good friend of mine has had this experience too. They even insulted my wife a couple years ago when she was trying to get a book for me for a special occasion. Berating customers who expect decent service has become DR's _modus operandi_. Buyer beware.


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## alwaysreforming (Feb 11, 2005)

My biggest beef after reading this thread is not that an order was overlooked, a product was late, or the like. Any business can fall short in its procedures and make similar mistakes, it need not be considered purposeful. However, what was indubitably "purposeful" was their response: an unprofessional, juvenile, rude, unChristian reply, INSTEAD of an apology. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

After reading this, I will NEVER do business with them, and if I ever find someone who is considering it, I will dissuade them by reading them the "reply" to Ranger. (then they'll probably tell their friends and so on and so on.)


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 11, 2005)




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## doulosChristou (Feb 11, 2005)

This is what Paul Kaye wrote to James White:

"We no longer sell your books. Please just leave is [us] alone and crawl back into your pharisaical Reformed Baptist hole."

And from the DR staff to Dr. White:

"And who is doing the talking? Nice Calvinists like you. Jerks. (All the ladies concur you are the biggest jerk of all, James.)...You have destroyed the work God was doing through this ministry. How shameful for someone who is supposed to shepherd the flock. God will destroy you, Dr. White. Along with Phil Johnson and Steve Camp you have slandered us terribly. So much for your doctrines of GRACE....I pity you Dr. White. In addition to being a royal jerk you are just a sad example of a human being. Your Christianity sucks. Big time."

Also, Discerning Reader has been moved on Phil Johnson's bookmarks not to "bad theology" but rather to "REALLY bad theology!" This is what Phil writes:

The Discerning Reader 

The story of this company's sudden meltdown is one of the saddest and most bizarre sagas of the Christian Web. The Discerning Reader is a Medford, OR-based bookselling business that over the years sponsored several excellent and well-designed Web sites—including Antithesis, Christian counterculture, and a colorful critique of postmodernism. At least ninety percent of their book recommendations were excellent and insightful. We highly recommended them for more than two years.

Then complaints began to multiply about customer service problems at The Discerning Reader. Customer-service difficulties per se are inevitable and an understandable part of doing business by mail. What was disturbing here was the coarse and pugnacious way owner Rob Schläpfer lashed out at his customers with profanity-laced abuse. We know this is a fact, because (even though we never complained about customer service,) as we have sought to understand and make sense of the changes taking place on the various Discerning Reader-sponsored Web sites, we have more than once been on the receiving end of some choice but unprintable expletives from Mr. Schläpfer.

As the controversy grew regarding Mr. Schlapfer and his abuse of customers, he began to attack the theological stance he himself had at first claimed to represent. He hypocritically wagged his finger at Reformed Christians, suggesting that their theology made them abusive and unloving. He has now given a wholesale endorsement and his highest rating to a book calling for evangelicals to embrace postmodernism. Since we once recommended this site and its sister sites with the highest accolades, we think it only fair to issue an equally strong warning: Discernment seems to be in very short supply these days at The Discerning Reader. Caveat emptor.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htm


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## Radar (Feb 11, 2005)

*They purposefully provoke to anger.*


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 11, 2005)

It should be called "The Discerning Shopper".


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 11, 2005)

I did a google search and read several discussions directly between Rob and others...and here is my conclusion...

given his language and attitude alone, I would not do business with him.

given his track record, I can't afford to loose any money through them.


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## doulosChristou (Feb 11, 2005)

I just called my wife so she could remind me of when and how DR had insulted her. She had ordered a book over 2 years ago for a special Valentine's Day present for me. When it did not arrive in time, she presented me with a picture of the book and told me it was on the way. It was Iain Murray's *Evangelicalism Divided*. After multiple emails inquiring the status, the book never came. Finally, several months later, my wife received an unapologetic email rebuking her for celebrating "pagan holidays like Valentine's Day in the first place." Eventually, they sent the book.

[Edited on 11-2-2005 by doulosChristou]


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## fredtgreco (Feb 11, 2005)

This is typical of Discerning Reader. I really mean it when I say that someone needs to attempt to have Church discipline instituted against them. That is for their own good, so that God might grant them repentance.

I can only say, Greg, that they are providentially blessed that they insulted your wife instead of mine.


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## doulosChristou (Feb 11, 2005)

She was well-prepared for the rudeness. When I found out it was DR from whom she had ordered the gift, I reminded her that was the place that had insulted me and we had agreed not to do business with anymore. Since then, we have not made the mistake of giving them our business. I sometimes wonder if they secretly want to go out of business so they can blame the "Calvinists" and claim martyrdom. I'm not sure what explains such inexplicable behavior toward those brethren who pay their very wages. I'm surprised they have enough un-insulted customers to continue receiving orders.


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## Bladestunner316 (Feb 11, 2005)

Kyle,
Man now Im angry(not really) but majorly disapointed in them. You would think a decent God fearing company would do their best to not be sent to BBB or any other collections or accountability agent. Tsk tsk.

blade


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## Craig (Feb 11, 2005)

I think one more email response is necessary...quote where this "business-man" accused you of unbiblically lodging a complaint against this horrible business.

Then ask them who their pastors are, and their churches so you can take the more biblical route of disciplining them.


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## turmeric (Feb 11, 2005)

Someone suggested to me once that mental illness might be behind this.


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## Augusta (Feb 11, 2005)

That is what it sounds like to me too. Someone there has a screw loose. They are not managing their business possibly because they mentally cannot and are perceiving themselves to be victimized when called to task on it. Sounds like someone who is not thinking clearly. Although his particular distaste for calvinists shows some kind of fixation is going on and you wonder if he puts people buying reformed books last on his priority list on purpose just so he can attack them when they get upset. That too shows some kind of psychosis.


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## hhtuck (Feb 12, 2005)

*Can I get a witness???*

I just thought I'd add my "testimony." 

My wife ordered The Religous Affections and The Valley of Vision for me for my birthday... which was September 12th. They still haven't come. 

She's emailed them a couple of times. I told her to keep track and see how many emails it took before she got a message rebuking her for not showing Christian patience and love.

How loving is it of them to take our money w/o sending the books or any response to inquiries?

The really frustrating thing for me is thinking about how excited I was when I discovered the DR and how I used to really talk them up to all my friends and my pastor.


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## Shane (Feb 12, 2005)

*Unbelievable, another sad advertisement for Christianity*



> I should have known you had "Reformed" leanings, Kyle. Reformed people tend to lack the very grace they speak so much about.
> 
> I have sent the Piper book, we are refunding the Edwards set and trust you will do your shopping somewhere else in the future.




This is so typical today, people like this disillusion non christians who need to here Gods word.

I would love to know how he manages to compare Grace with Incompetence?


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## cupotea (Feb 12, 2005)

I tried to visit their website but the page didn't load, are they closed down now?

BTW I tried so many times accessing monergism.com's online bookstore but coudn't get through, I live in China, does anyboday know why this happens?


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## blhowes (Feb 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by duncan001_
> I tried to visit their website but the page didn't load, are they closed down now?
> 
> BTW I tried so many times accessing monergism.com's online bookstore but coudn't get through, I live in China, does anyboday know why this happens?


Duncan,
I went there and the link didn't work for me. You can get to the bookstore by clicking on the Books link and then selecting "Monergism Books.com Join the Monergism Revolution".

[Edited on 2-12-2005 by blhowes]


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## turmeric (Feb 12, 2005)

I will email John Hendryx & tell him his link isn't working, but I need to know which one. Is it when you try to go there directly? What's the bookstore's web address? I usually go through the monergism.com site.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 12, 2005)

How about we email him this thread to show him what others think of his stewardship?


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## Ben Gliddon (Feb 13, 2005)

*Discerning Reader - Apology*

Antithesis - Apology from Rob Schläpfer

Edited to merge with similar thread by Moderator

[Edited on 2-13-2005 by joshua]


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 13, 2005)

Discerning reader apology:

http://www.antithesis.com/


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## lwadkins (Feb 13, 2005)

Referencing the apology, why does "love" seem today to have the same meaning as "uncritical acceptence"?


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## cupotea (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by duncan001_
> ...



Thanks for reply, but even that link doesn't work for me, to me all links ( to bookstore, to individual book info) don't work, please let John know since I buy books from time to time ( don't know if he ships to China


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## Scott Bushey (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> Referencing the apology, why does "love" seem today to have the same meaning as "uncritical acceptence"?



It is another viral strain that the enemy is trying to use in an effort to neutralize Gods word. It is the same lie spoken in the garden to Eve; 

Gen 3:1 And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


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## Authorised (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> This was sent out BEFORE Ranger got the hateful email, I believe. I read this apology on the 8th or the 9th.



Joshua, I checked antithesis.com on the 12th, and I don't remember seeing the apology there.


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## Authorised (Feb 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Aaron...correct. But there was an email sent out earlier through what they send their newsletter out with (topica?) before this apology was made public.




Oh, I see. I didn't realize that's what you meant.


Anyway, here's a dancing banana:


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## turmeric (Feb 14, 2005)

It seems obvious to me that this man is mentally ill. We should pray for his healing & repentance. Greg Boyd's quoted remarks have been said before in other ways and weren't THAT earthshaking. The guy is still flipped out and can't properly explain himself. Hopefully, he's on the mend. John Hendryx (monergism.com) wasn't at church today as far as I know. His wife is ill. I'm sure he wants to send books to China if allowed. Will send an email.

Update; monergism.com is back on track. There were the infamous Technical Difficulties. Yes, they DO send to China, unless China is somehow blocking them. Try again.

[Edited on 15-2-2005 by turmeric]


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## default (Jul 22, 2005)

OF COURSE IT'S STILL IN BUSINESS, when he sends incomplete orders, or sends one book for the price of two... I'd be banned from this site if I copied my emails from him! The man is not a Christian!


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 22, 2005)

Must have gone to the Jay Green school of business.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 22, 2005)

JG school of business

I understand that. There is more to that story though. His son J.P.Green jr. has been running the business for many years now. But going farther back than that when he had the stores it's another story.

You can ask me about it if you want. But I am sure you didn't get cussed at or verballly mistreated.


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## default (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> JG school of business
> 
> I understand that. There is more to that story though. His son J.P.Green jr. has been running the business for many years now. But going farther back than that when he had the stores it's another story.
> ...



If your saying I personally didn't, I can forward you the emails. If your speaking of the stores, I'll have to take your word for it.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 22, 2005)

Lori,

We are talking about Jay Green not the other person who runs the discerning reader.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> JG school of business
> 
> I understand that. There is more to that story though. His son J.P.Green jr. has been running the business for many years now. But going farther back than that when he had the stores it's another story.
> ...


That's true. But they nevertheless never paid off their bill for the books they ordered (six or seven years ago I think). I'll never do business with them again; and I'm sure not recommending anything with that name attached to it.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> ...



They got ripped off also. They lost a lot of money to riverside for their books. That was after your experience. There still is no excuse for not paying your bills though. As I said the Son runs the book stuff now. Senior just works on his writing and manuscript stuff. He is getting really up in years.


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## biblelighthouse (Jul 22, 2005)

Unbelieveable!!!

I definitely need to remove their link off of my website. I don't want to order any more books from them, and I do not want to recommend them to anyone else again, either!

How sad.


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## Puritanhead (Sep 19, 2005)

And Discerning Reader has shut doors, and closed shop, as either the profitibility or the bad publicity from bad customer service has taken a toll! It was a certainly well-designed web site with a good selection, though they started to include a lot of postmodernist liberal Christian stuff on top of the Reformed Christian books. I only ordered from them once in 2002, but was not satisfied as my _new_ ESV Bible was scuffed up with the cover missing and the order was incomplete, but came much later.

Discerning Reader -- renowned for their courteous customer service


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## Herald (Sep 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> Kyle, I think Fredï¿½s take on the situation is correct. As Christians since their work is unto Christ, the service from Discerning Reader should be noticeably BETTER, as compared to other firms. I just canï¿½t understand how you as Christian are wrong to expect any organization to live up to promises made? It seems to me that the owner(s) of Discerning Reader have broken their vow to you and in doing so have borne false witness by promising to ship your products promptly and then not followed through. Also, you may want to check with Visa or Mastercard, so they can hold payment to DR if you have been charged in the past for merchandise that hasnï¿½t been shipped.



Your correct Adam, the service shold be better. But DR is a business. It is not tax exempt. As such this is not a church discipline issue. They are like any business that fails to take care of the customer: a bad company to deal with. If they are in the habit of taking advantage of customers, it would be interesting what a few calls to the State Attorney General may do. They are hiding behind the Christian flag, which is reprehensible. 

As a salesperson, this is why I have a such a difficult time doing business with other believers.


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## Pilgrim (Sep 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> And Discerning Reader has shut doors, and closed shop, as either the profitibility or the bad publicity from bad customer service has taken a toll! It was a certainly well-designed web site with a good selection, though they started to include a lot of postmodernist liberal Christian stuff on top of the Reformed Christian books. I only ordered from them once in 2002, but was not satisfied as my _new_ ESV Bible was scuffed up with the cover missing and the order was incomplete, but came much later.
> 
> Discerning Reader -- renowned for their courteous customer service




The whole operation has been shut down, including Antithesis, Christian Counterculture and the Francis Schaeffer site that had some of Schaeffer's work posted and also had several good articles about him. 

This just occurred within in the last few weeks or so because I reread John Frame's "Machen's Warrior Children" within the last month on the Christian Counterculture site. All that's left there is this parting shot: 


We're done.



I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.christiancounterculture.com/pages/1/index.htm


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 20, 2005)

Is it freezing in here or what?


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## fredtgreco (Sep 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_ All that's left there is this parting shot:
> 
> 
> We're done.
> ...



I think it is an excellent commentary on the professing believers who ran the site.


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## JasonGoodwin (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> After reading some of the things he's done and said, I really do wonder if he has some mental problems? I mean that in all sincerity.



Joshua, if there is a serious mental problem, perhaps he should be checked out for Pick's disease. From what I understand, its victims begin developing irrational behavior and can't control what they say and do. Similar to Tourette's Syndrome, but Pick's is also degenerative, debilitating, and can ultimately lead to physical death.

This is the same disease which killed Ted Darling, the longtime color commentator for the Buffalo Sabres.

Either way, it's tragic -- to say the least.


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## JasonGoodwin (Jul 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> I can only say, Greg, that they are providentially blessed that they insulted your wife instead of mine.



*INCOMING!!!* Run for cover!!!


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