# From SBTS to Covenant?



## dsa03cjj (May 18, 2017)

Hi all!

I'm a super new member. My wife and 2 kids (1 more coming) are currently at Southern Seminary.

We've been here 2 years, but I've been at SBTS just 1. My wife thought she might like to do the counseling, but we've recently seen the benefits of a more integrated/reformational counseling program rather than just getting some ACBC accreditation.

We also realized while we were here that we have become PCA. We actually had been fighting for a while internally with baptism, cov theo, Presbyterian government, etc. but not reformed theology...but we have fallen hard for where the Lord wants us. That's why we initially chose SBTS, to avoid the fight  We thought it would satisfy.

With professors like Bruce Ware, Gregg Allison, etc. I have come to find that we somewhat agree with them, but we are not in line with a lot of the profs here.

So, we applied to Covenant in St. Louis. They have a good counseling program as well as a great hands-on program with a great community of people. SBTS is SO BIG! We have found a family here, but there's very little community happening because there are so many in the seminary setting. It's difficult.

Staying at SBTS though we would have a tuition paid for (by an outside funder). I am currently working 40 hours/week while taking 3-4 classes a term. I have a full load with 2 kids and 1 on the way.

Going to CTS, we would have to pay and possibly take out loans. I would still work to pay them down quicker. We just don't want to walk out of seminary (SEMINARY!) with debt...but if the Lord is calling us, we should go. And go to be with a family that holds to where we hold most of our structure.

We have 4 weeks to decide. Crazy, right??

My wife would get her education free at Cov though. Spouses go free. She would wait until after SBTS to go to another school if I remained here.

What are your thoughts? We have also thought about going back home to RTS Charlotte to get help with the kids from our parents.

We just don't want it to be about money over God, but maybe God is saying money is a big deal in this situation too?

Too much in the mix? Sorry for the overload. Be gracious to me


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## Beezer (May 18, 2017)

Greetings,

You certainly have a lot to pray and reflect on. As difficult as it might be I would try and not let your financial considerations play too big a role in your discerning the Lord's will in the matter. If you are still wrestling over the theological issues you raised I would proceed very slowly and not rush a decision. If that means one more year at SBTS so be it. Have you discussed the change of heart with your faculty advisor at SBTS? I'm sure your credits from SBTS will transfer to Covenant if you stayed one more year.

Do you currently attend a PCA church? If so, have you discussed any of this with your elders? If you are currently at a SBC church I would look for a NAPARC church in your area to attend first and come under the care of a presbytery before heading off to Covenant.


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## reaganmarsh (May 18, 2017)

I've only got a brief moment bit will try to write more later. Speaking as an SBTS grad, and SBC minister, you should also factor in to your equation that non-SBC students pay double tuition...

Welcome to the PB, either way!


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## SolaScriptura (May 18, 2017)

Speaking as an SBTS grad who is a PCA pastor... who while at SBTS considered transferring to CTS... but who subsequent to my graduation (in '06) have met many CTS grads, and almost to the man those I've met are on the left of our denomination... I say, stay at SBTS. Or at least don't go to CTS.

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## dsa03cjj (May 18, 2017)

Beezer said:


> Greetings,
> 
> You certainly have a lot to pray and reflect on. As difficult as it might be I would try and not let your financial considerations play too big a role in your discerning the Lord's will in the matter. If you are still wrestling over the theological issues you raised I would proceed very slowly and not rush a decision. If that means one more year at SBTS so be it. Have you discussed the change of heart with your faculty advisor at SBTS? I'm sure your credits from SBTS will transfer to Covenant if you stayed one more year.
> 
> Do you currently attend a PCA church? If so, have you discussed any of this with your elders? If you are currently at a SBC church I would look for a NAPARC church in your area to attend first and come under the care of a presbytery before heading off to Covenant.



Hi Beezer,

So, yes I've talked to both SBTS and CTS. The classes would all transfer well but 2 I believe. Those would end up being electives.

And we have been back and forth with a PCA church. It's very small and very new. It's actually the re-beginning of a PCA church that fell apart a while back, then was re-commissioned. There are only 2 PCA churches in the area. One is heavily FV. Not going there!

And we've talked with our pastors. They are for the move simply because it's a good program.



reaganmarsh said:


> I've only got a brief moment bit will try to write more later. Speaking as an SBTS grad, and SBC minister, you should also factor in to your equation that non-SBC students pay double tuition...
> 
> Welcome to the PB, either way!



Thanks, reaganmarsh! I actually have a scholarship (outside of the school) that is paying. So, the rate doesn't change too much. 



SolaScriptura said:


> Speaking as an SBTS grad who is a PCA pastor... who while at SBTS considered transferring to CTS... but who subsequent to my graduation (in '06) have met many CTS grads, and almost to the man those I've met are on the left of our denomination... I say, stay at SBTS. Or at least don't go to CTS.



Thanks for the reply, SolaScriptura! I've actually NEVER heard that about Cov. I've heard the opposite. My problems with SBTS are views like compatabalistic middle knowledge, disowning limited atonement, more heavy dispensationalism than you'd think, and overall a VERY congregational heavy school. I recently wrote a paper about church government and sided with presbyterianism. The comments were "You wrote a great paper! I do, however, disagree with your position. For that, you get a 92. Otherwise, it would have been higher."

Trust me when I say that students have taken things like that before to the dean of the school of theology. It matters not. 

At SBTS, we are merely numbers. At least, for classes that start at 60-70 people. My largest class was 250 last semester. Great class with Dr. Haykin. Loved it!

I just don't agree with the positions either. And there isn't a stuper healthy PCA church around here to help with that either.

Would you suggest going to RTS Charlotte? We would then be home (for our parents to help with the kids) and I'd get a seminary degree.

RTS's counseling program, though, is solely nouthetic like SBTS's. Not ideal for my wife. She's not fully nouthetic in her views.

What do you suggest outside of SBTS? I am willing to stay, we just haven't felt the Lord wanting us to stay. We also haven't had any doors fully open elsewhere.

Oh the discernment! It's killer 

Thank you all for your help! Truly, brothers. This is why we need each other.


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## dsa03cjj (May 18, 2017)

Also, all, I meant to say that if I leave SBTS, the scholarship does not follow.


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## dsa03cjj (May 18, 2017)

SolaScriptura said:


> Speaking as an SBTS grad who is a PCA pastor... who while at SBTS considered transferring to CTS... but who subsequent to my graduation (in '06) have met many CTS grads, and almost to the man those I've met are on the left of our denomination... I say, stay at SBTS. Or at least don't go to CTS.



Ben, where did you go to church while in Louisville? I'd love to talk more.


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## Edward (May 18, 2017)

I'm a bit out of touch, but RTS Jackson used to have a good counseling program. I'd put RTS ahead of Covenant.


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## jwithnell (May 18, 2017)

You are considering a path that will put you in a leadership position in a church and your wife is considering counselling other people. That sounds to me like you need to be solidly on your feet. I see a few possibilities.

1. Stay where you are. I've known folks who's education in a broadly evangelical seminary turned them solidly reformed. Their schools didn't slow them down in presbyterian circles. (Knowing; the entire Shorter Catechism before examination by Presbytary didn't hurt either.) Experience at a church plant could give you a solid education in both the theology and the "workings" of presbyterianism.
2. Take a gap year, do extensive reading and become more familiar with Presbyerian theology, history, and the current issues affecting the seminaries. Yes, it's tough with a family.
3. Find an outstanding church near a solid reformed seminary first, then choose your school accordingly. 

~ Signed,
A pew-dweller, but one who's been around awhile

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## arapahoepark (May 18, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> Hi Beezer,
> 
> So, yes I've talked to both SBTS and CTS. The classes would all transfer well but 2 I believe. Those would end up being electives.
> 
> ...


While I disagree with your wife I am pretty certain RTS is not nouthetic. At least RTS Jackson and Orlando are not. Plus, isn't there online....


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## dsa03cjj (May 19, 2017)

arapahoepark said:


> While I disagree with your wife I am pretty certain RTS is not nouthetic. At least RTS Jackson and Orlando are not. Plus, isn't there online....



You are correct that Jackson and Orlando are anti-nouthetic. Charlotte and the others are nouthetic. 

Covenant has what is called Reformational. It is like integration. So, nouthetic but with physiological classes as well to understand from the outsider perspective. It's intriguing. 



jwithnell said:


> You are considering a path that will put you in a leadership position in a church and your wife is considering counselling other people. That sounds to me like you need to be solidly on your feet. I see a few possibilities.
> 
> 1. Stay where you are. I've known folks who's education in a broadly evangelical seminary turned them solidly reformed. Their schools didn't slow them down in presbyterian circles. (Knowing; the entire Shorter Catechism before examination by Presbytary didn't hurt either.) Experience at a church plant could give you a solid education in both the theology and the "workings" of presbyterianism.
> 2. Take a gap year, do extensive reading and become more familiar with Presbyerian theology, history, and the current issues affecting the seminaries. Yes, it's tough with a family.
> ...



Great advice! Truly great. We will chew and pray on that. Thank you! 


Edward said:


> I'm a bit out of touch, but RTS Jackson used to have a good counseling program. I'd put RTS ahead of Covenant.



You are correct, Edward. Jackson does have a good program. Charlotte, however, is new to the game and solely nouthetic. I've had quite a few friends say RTS. 

I've also had roughly 20 friends go to Cov and they loved it and they are great friends and pastors. Reliable. Solid. 

Such a crossroads. 

Thanks for being gracious, all!


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## Jack K (May 19, 2017)

Are you hoping to be a pastor in a Presbyterian church? If so, and if you don't already have contacts or a church/presbytery that's behind you, graduating from a Presbyterian seminary could make it easier to find and get your first ministry position. That's a factor to consider.

I like how you're considering your wife's interests.


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## dsa03cjj (May 19, 2017)

Jack K said:


> Are you hoping to be a pastor in a Presbyterian church? If so, and if you don't already have contacts or a church/presbytery that's behind you, graduating from a Presbyterian seminary could make it easier to find and get your first ministry position. That's a factor to consider.
> 
> I like how you're considering your wife's interests.



Hey Jack! Yes, we want to be in the PCA. I think my wife is pretty awesome... she's definitely gotta be at the forefront 

Thanks for your input!

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## Jacob Sweeney (May 19, 2017)

As a graduate of SBTS and a pastor in the PCA, let me say a few things: 

1) If your goal is to go to a seminary where you can agree with everything your professors say, then do not go to seminary. The purpose of seminary is not to give you "the right answers" but to learn how to think biblically and theologically. Being at a school that is still conservative Evangelical - just not your type - can actually benefit you because it will force you to think through your convictions for yourself. And that is invaluable training for the pastorate. More often than not you have to stand alone with your convictions. It's best to learn that now in a friendly environment.

2) Getting your seminary education paid for at SBTS will be more important in the long run than going to the school you prefer. I graduated from both Moody Bible Institute (BA) and SBTS (MDiv) and have no school debt. That has been a lifesaver.

3) My wife, too, desired to get her MA in Counseling. We are both advocates of the integrated approach. But getting the degree is just the beginning. Depending on your state, you have to log somewhere around 3,000 hours. Few places pay for that work and it can take longer than earning the degree. With little ones at home, you have to prayerfully consider whether this is the right time for her to begin that long journey towards licensure. We opted to wait until our boys are older. 

My best piece of advice is to pray hard. Get as many people as you can to pray with you and for you. Take a few days to pray and fast. And then take some more. God will confirm what he wants you to do. It may not be what you would prefer, but it will be the best for you and your family.

Hopefully, that helps you.

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## bened (May 19, 2017)

Good word, Jacob.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2017)

One question, is the funding you are receiving for your education at SBTS being provided under the assumption that you will become a Baptist pastor? If so, then you must decline if you in fact are planning to be a Presbyterian pastor.

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## Parakaleo (May 19, 2017)

Here's my advice (for whatever it's worth). Ensure that you can provide for your family at a basic level (food, clothing, shelter, health care), instruct your wife to stay home full-time and care for the children, and pursue seminary training under the care of a good presbytery. If the Lord has indeed called you to ordained ministry in the church, that certainly takes precedence over your wife's desire to pursue work in counseling outside the home.



dsa03cjj said:


> I am currently working 40 hours/week while taking 3-4 classes a term. I have a full load with 2 kids and 1 on the way.



May I ask why you have listed the care of the children as part of your personal responsibilities?

I attended RTS Charlotte and believe it is a good school for the most part. If I were to do it again, I would be at PRTS. I would not recommend Covenant.


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## Parakaleo (May 19, 2017)

I think I may have misread your post the first time through. I had thought you were saying your wife is _currently _taking counseling courses. I now see that you said this:



dsa03cjj said:


> She would wait until after SBTS to go to another school if I remained here.



Still, I guess I'm wondering why your wife's desire to work in counseling (I'm presuming outside the home) is such a factor here? Let her raise the children in the home while you labor/study for ministry. You also mentioned you might move to Charlotte to have parents "help out with kids". Would this be so that you and your wife can both study/work outside the home?

I really hope you don't mind me trying to sort all this out concerning your situation, brother. You have asked for counsel. I would commend to you the virtues Paul speaks about in Titus 2 as worthy of implementation in your home, since this is the Lord's revealed will.


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## dsa03cjj (May 19, 2017)

Jacob Sweeney said:


> As a graduate of SBTS and a pastor in the PCA, let me say a few things:
> 
> 1) If your goal is to go to a seminary where you can agree with everything your professors say, then do not go to seminary. The purpose of seminary is not to give you "the right answers" but to learn how to think biblically and theologically. Being at a school that is still conservative Evangelical - just not your type - can actually benefit you because it will force you to think through your convictions for yourself. And that is invaluable training for the pastorate. More often than not you have to stand alone with your convictions. It's best to learn that now in a friendly environment.
> 
> ...



So glad to hear. Great great word. My wife also loved the advice.



Bill The Baptist said:


> One question, is the funding you are receiving for your education at SBTS being provided under the assumption that you will become a Baptist pastor? If so, then you must decline if you in fact are planning to be a Presbyterian pastor.



Bill, at this time, no. That could change though. It has no movement to the Baptist pulpit.



Parakaleo said:


> Here's my advice (for whatever it's worth). Ensure that you can provide for your family at a basic level (food, clothing, shelter, health care), instruct your wife to stay home full-time and care for the children, and pursue seminary training under the care of a good presbytery. If the Lord has indeed called you to ordained ministry in the church, that certainly takes precedence over your wife's desire to pursue work in counseling outside the home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Blake, we believe that if we can both get the degrees we want from the same place, especially a good seminary, then we would cut costs. That's a win win.

And child care itself anywhere is quite expensive for 2-3 kids. It is $1k per kid/month. So, I'm working through seminary. I wasn't meaning to just say it was my responsibility only. I only meant that I go to school, work, and come home to a wife and 2.5 kids. It's a tough schedule already and that's with school paid for. Does that help?


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## SolamVeritatem (May 19, 2017)

Chad,

Sent you a PM brother.

In Him,

Craig


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## Pilgrim (May 20, 2017)

If you like the theology on this board, avoid CTS. If you think many of the posters here are extremists in some way, maybe you'll fit right in.

If you don't know what the Federal Vision or the NPP is, educate yourself before really considering CTS. Many come out of there with those views. (If you do go, avoid the church pastored by Jeff Meyers, which is apparently where a lot of it comes from.) I've also heard that there are not many confessional churches in the St.L area, although maybe there are one or two. I could be wrong.

As mentioned earlier, others from CTS are part of the "progressive" wing of the PCA. (By progressive, think more progressive than anything you've ever seen in the SBC unless you've known some of the old liberals.)

Consider carefully the fact that you have people on a Reformed board, including two graduates of the institution, telling you that you might well be better off at SBTS than CTS. 

I wonder how many confessional churches throw all resumes from CTS in the trash (especially from those they don't know) the way that anti-Calvinist SBC churches throw resumes from SBTS and SEBTS in the trash.

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## dsa03cjj (May 20, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> If you like the theology on this board, avoid CTS. If you think many of the posters here are extremists in some way, maybe you'll fit right in.
> 
> If you don't know what the Federal Vision or the NPP is, educate yourself before really considering CTS. Many come out of there with those views. (If you do go, avoid the church pastored by Jeff Meyers, which is apparently where a lot of it comes from.) I've also heard that there are not many confessional churches in the St.L area, although maybe there are one or two. I could be wrong.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Chris! Yes, most SBC churches throw SBTS grads' resumes in the trash. We've been told that often here.

What are your thoughts about RTS Charlotte, then? 

Thanks so much for your help and advice!


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## dsa03cjj (May 20, 2017)

SolamVeritatem said:


> Chad,
> 
> Sent you a PM brother.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Craig!


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## Beezer (May 20, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> most SBC churches throw SBTS grads' resumes in the trash. We've been told that often here.



Hmm. I didn't realize that was the case. I would have thought SBTS was held in the highest regard among SBC churches. Out of curiousity, which seminaries do most SBC churches like to draw from?


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## dsa03cjj (May 20, 2017)

Beezer said:


> Hmm. I didn't realize that was the case. I would have thought SBTS was held in the highest regard among SBC churches. Out of curiousity, which seminaries do most SBC churches like to draw from?



SEBTS and NOBTS are the two bigger. Unless you are very SBC (old school), then they choose from SWBTS. SBTS is heavy for the reformed side which is gaining. SBTS is reformed. SWBTS is completely anti-reformed. SEBTS and NOBTS are in the middle. 

I'm from SC. The churches in my area did not support me going to SBTS. I was told often to go to SEBTS. I went to an arminian-ish SBC college. I had a few reformed professors (don't know how they remained working there) who implored me to go to Southern. I took their advice. It's a good school for sure. Churches are just selective once you graduate.

Most of the churches I grew up working in carried a few thousand members. All SBC churches. None would hire from SBTS. One of my previous pastors even warned me about that devilish Calvinism. He said he wouldn't hire an SBTS grad.

We didn't plan on going back to SC though. No worries there

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## Pilgrim (May 20, 2017)

Unless there has been a massive change in the past half decade, there are many more Calvinistic men (i.e. 4 points +) at Southeastern than New Orleans. (That's why I lumped SBTS and SEBTS together. NOBTS is closer to SWBTS with regard to Calvinism. NOBTS did have a bit more Calvinists (such as Jim Shaddix) before Hurricane Katrina, from what I understand. And at least some at NOBTS who some would consider to be Calvinistic are enamored with things like the NPP and contemplative spirituality. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## reaganmarsh (May 20, 2017)

It is indeed true that many SBC churches discard SBTS résumés. Hopefully, not as many do that now as they did a few years back...but I had a drawer full of letters from churches and associations saying they had no interest in an SBTS grad. 

This is where you learn to walk out practically what you confess doctrinally. If you're reformed in your theology, trust that the same God who predestined your salvation also has a providential plan for your ministry. 

To our OP: brother, you may desire to boost your PCA credibility by transferring to a more PCA-friendly school, and that is fine. It appears that you've come to affirm paedobaptism; a difficult and dense course of theological inquiry indeed (and one I've walked). I'm not here to debate your conclusion. I wish only to speak practically to the seminary matter. 

Your situation may be very different than mine was, but let me encourage you: if you have your tuition paid at SBTS, that is a gift of the highest order. Do not be quick to walk away from it. Churches of all sizes are struggling financially, salary cuts (on already minimal levels) are the reality, and student loans can follow you for decades. Finish your MDiv, learn the Catechism well, and then enter the denomination of your conviction. Your convictions re: baptism and polity may run counter to what SBTS teaches, but you should use the time to learn and test the best arguments against your position. Then you'll be able to stand on your own feet when you stand alone -- and those days will frequently be more common than you ever dream. 

Put your family in the best position possible for the future, seek to learn a robust, humble irenicism, and praise God for a one-in-a-million providence toward you. 

Have a great Sabbath tomorrow, brother. If I may be of service, please feel free to contact me.

Grace to you.

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## TheOldCourse (May 21, 2017)

Jacob Sweeney said:


> As a graduate of SBTS and a pastor in the PCA, let me say a few things:
> 
> 1) If your goal is to go to a seminary where you can agree with everything your professors say, then do not go to seminary. The purpose of seminary is not to give you "the right answers" but to learn how to think biblically and theologically. Being at a school that is still conservative Evangelical - just not your type - can actually benefit you because it will force you to think through your convictions for yourself. And that is invaluable training for the pastorate. More often than not you have to stand alone with your convictions. It's best to learn that now in a friendly environment.



This seems like a strange point to me. Why should we bother to have confessional seminaries if it's more beneficial to learn from a seminary where anti-confessional theology is taught? Shouldn't we seek to learn at the feet of wise men who teach God's truth most clearly?

If someone is going to challenge themselves theologically, perhaps it would be best to challenge themselves from a place that is more strictly confessional than they are currently rather than less.


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## jwithnell (May 21, 2017)

The ideal situation would be to have been reared with Presbyterian convictions, with a chance to exercise your gifts as a young man, and to go to a solidly reformed church while attending a similar seminary while under the care of a presbytery. Those elements don't always align themselves. The first is not so for the OP and likely the three latter items would be unavailable in St. Louis. (Though I understand there's a good OPC church there now.)


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## Beezer (May 21, 2017)

I have been thinking about the opinions expressed here about CTS, particularly about it producing pastors who fall left of center, and interestingly enough the more progressive PCA pastors in my area have all come out of there. I didn't make that connection before, but there might be something to be said about that.


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## arapahoepark (May 21, 2017)

Beezer said:


> I have been thinking about the opinions expressed here about CTS, particularly about it producing pastors who fall left of center, and interestingly enough the more progressive PCA pastors in my area have all come out of there. I didn't make that connection before, but there might be something to be said about that.


When you say Progressive is it in all ways (broad evangelical)? Or...?


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## NaphtaliPress (May 21, 2017)

I don't know if he coined it but I recall being surprised at the identification and use of the term progressive (note it is in quote marks) as the term for that side, but see the former CTS chancellor's article here defining the 3 groups in the PCA (writing from not the traditionaist side; please note the objectionable term):
http://byfaithonline.com/the-state-of-the-pca/
For a confessionalist/conservative response see this:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2015/05/dear-bryan-replying-to-the-sta-1.php


arapahoepark said:


> When we say Progressive is it in all ways? Or...?


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## lynnie (May 21, 2017)

I have five kids, grown now. I vote for moving by the grandparents if the money works out. 

Keep in mind that if your wife is a sympathetic, merciful type of person, she will be inundated with more "counseling" than she can possibly handle just in her relationships with other moms and at church. There will be women who are depressed, or have an unhappy marriage, and endless conversations about problems with kids. Courses are fine and she will learn a lot, but her gifts will be used even if she never goes professional. Personally I know all kinds of people who can't afford 85-95-120 dollars per hour, so they don't get professional counsel even if they want it. Yes they could talk to the pastors and elders but some women want to talk to a woman. So they vent and dump and talk to people who care but lack the skills to help steer them in the right direction. Your wife may discover she is swamped with needy people just living her life.


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## TylerRay (May 21, 2017)

Chad,

Have you considered Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary or Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? Both of these schools will provide you with a much more Old School Presbyterian/Classically Reformed education. From what I can tell, both SBTS and CTS will present you with a VERY broadly Reformed perspective. I wouldn't want to be educated in Reformed theology by men who take untold numbers of exceptions to the confessions that are intended to constitute the consensus of Reformed ministers and elders.

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## dsa03cjj (May 22, 2017)

lynnie said:


> I have five kids, grown now. I vote for moving by the grandparents if the money works out.
> 
> Keep in mind that if your wife is a sympathetic, merciful type of person, she will be inundated with more "counseling" than she can possibly handle just in her relationships with other moms and at church. There will be women who are depressed, or have an unhappy marriage, and endless conversations about problems with kids. Courses are fine and she will learn a lot, but her gifts will be used even if she never goes professional. Personally I know all kinds of people who can't afford 85-95-120 dollars per hour, so they don't get professional counsel even if they want it. Yes they could talk to the pastors and elders but some women want to talk to a woman. So they vent and dump and talk to people who care but lack the skills to help steer them in the right direction. Your wife may discover she is swamped with needy people just living her life.



Thanks, Lynnie, for the info. My wife does want to further her education at the Chicago School as well. They are great for psychology. Very few get in with a mere BA, so having an MA gets her foot in the door. She wants to do this professionally and in the church. We will see where God leads, though.



TylerRay said:


> Chad,
> 
> Have you considered Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary or Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? Both of these schools will provide you with a much more Old School Presbyterian/Classically Reformed education. From what I can tell, both SBTS and CTS will present you with a VERY broadly Reformed perspective. I wouldn't want to be educated in Reformed theology by men who take untold numbers of exceptions to the confessions that are intended to constitute the consensus of Reformed ministers and elders.



Hey Tyler,

Yes, I have. I actually contacted the admissions at GPTS. Since they are not accredited yet, they wouldn't do any good for furthering into a PhD program. I may have missed mentioning that in the first post. 

Thank you all! This is very helpful. My wife and I have been praying non-stop about it all.


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## dsa03cjj (May 22, 2017)

reaganmarsh said:


> It is indeed true that many SBC churches discard SBTS résumés. Hopefully, not as many do that now as they did a few years back...but I had a drawer full of letters from churches and associations saying they had no interest in an SBTS grad.
> 
> This is where you learn to walk out practically what you confess doctrinally. If you're reformed in your theology, trust that the same God who predestined your salvation also has a providential plan for your ministry.
> 
> ...



Reagan, brother, thank you. Yes, the paedo has been my hardest area. The others (gov, reformed, etc.), not so much. The baptism was what I have been most used to. It is still a bit of a hurdle due to natural baptist instincts.

And you are right. We do need to be praising God for what He has given. I think this forum is helping me see that SBTS is yet a good place still to be. We are still praying but we've got great guidance thus far.

Blessings, brother!


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## TylerRay (May 22, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> Yes, I have. I actually contacted the admissions at GPTS. Since they are not accredited yet, they wouldn't do any good for furthering into a PhD program. I may have missed mentioning that in the first post.



If accreditation is a big deal, consider Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. They have ATS accreditation.

However, a degree from an unaccredited seminary will not necessarily bar you from pursuing advanced degrees. I recommend contacting the school you intend to attend for post-grad studies, and ask if they will accept students from such a school.

Dr. Ryan McGraw is a good example of a GPTS alum who earned a PhD (from The University of the Free State, SA).

Where do you intend to go for Th.M. and Ph.D. studies?

Also, note that PRTS has Th.M. and Ph.D. programs, and GPTS has Th.M. and Th.D. programs.


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## dsa03cjj (May 22, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> If accreditation is a big deal, consider Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. They have ATS accreditation.
> 
> However, a degree from an unaccredited seminary will not necessarily bar you from pursuing advanced degrees. I recommend contacting the school you intend to attend for post-grad studies, and ask if they will accept students from such a school.
> 
> ...



Good point. GPTS said that it would be easy to get into a confessional school like WTS or somewhere of the like. If we went overseas (highly unlikely), no where would take GPTS.

If we went back to SBTS, it is likely they would take it. 

So, we have no clue where the Lord is leading us in that way  I'm looking more New Testament studies for the PhD, but uncertain the focus.


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## SolaScriptura (May 22, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> Good point. GPTS said that it would be easy to get into a confessional school like WTS or somewhere of the like. If we went overseas (highly unlikely), no where would take GPTS.
> 
> If we went back to SBTS, it is likely they would take it.
> 
> So, we have no clue where the Lord is leading us in that way  I'm looking more New Testament studies for the PhD, but uncertain the focus.



Part of what helped me make up my mind about staying at SBTS rather than transferring to CTS is that, strangely enough, while CTS was (on paper) a "confessional school," they were teaching - in my hearing during my campus visit - things that were actually to the left of anything I was being taught at SBTS. And when I walked into the bookstore at CTS I discovered that many of the texts were written by guys I was studying under at SBTS. Go figure. For me the choice was clear. But upon my graduation it seemed like everyone I encountered who was a grad of CTS was either on the left of our denomination OR had strong FV sympathies and subsequently became Anglican. I am strongly in favor of defunding CTS and severing denominational ties to that school.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward (May 22, 2017)

SolaScriptura said:


> I am strongly in favor of defunding CTS and severing denominational ties to that school.



I've come to the position that the Joining and Receiving ended up to be a big mistake. If the OPC had ended up in the mix, it might have balanced out.


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## dsa03cjj (May 23, 2017)

SolaScriptura said:


> Part of what helped me make up my mind about staying at SBTS rather than transferring to CTS is that, strangely enough, while CTS was (on paper) a "confessional school," they were teaching - in my hearing during my campus visit - things that were actually to the left of anything I was being taught at SBTS. And when I walked into the bookstore at CTS I discovered that many of the texts were written by guys I was studying under at SBTS. Go figure. For me the choice was clear. But upon my graduation it seemed like everyone I encountered who was a grad of CTS was either on the left of our denomination OR had strong FV sympathies and subsequently became Anglican. I am strongly in favor of defunding CTS and severing denominational ties to that school.



Thanks, Ben!

Due to costs, it looks like we might be staying. Even moving itself is hefty now. What a challenging season, but a good one. God wouldn't have us here if He didn't want us here.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 23, 2017)

Edward said:


> I've come to the position that the Joining and Receiving ended up to be a big mistake. If the OPC had ended up in the mix, it might have balanced out.


I have too. While I tend to now think that there was no more than at most a minority at the PCA's founding who understood let alone favored the strict confessionalism of the PCUS conservatives of the 1930s and prior, the sentiments of the New School RPCES overwhelmed any Old School tendencies. The OPC coming in at the time as well, as was planned, might have made it a fairer fight; or maybe not, depending on how much Old School Presbyterianism still dominated at the time and was understood in the OPC. If you've read Bill Smith's take on this (ex PCA now an Reformed Episcopalian, so not writing for a pro Old School Presbyterian conviction), he states the case for this in an old blog article. I cited his presentation in my bit on the PCA and the Sabbath that ran in the 12th issue of _The Confessional Presbyterian _last year.
In 1982 the complexion of the PCA changed with the
joining and receiving of the RPCES. While on paper the
RPCES had the same or similar doctrinal statements
with regard to Sabbath doctrine and practice, there
was a significant difference as to subscription to doctrinal
standards. The RPCES came from a New School
background as far as the question of subscription and
exceptions to doctrinal standards. Bill Smith provides
a helpful analysis of the merger:

It was not clear at the time of Joining and Receiving (J&R)
in 1982 what the impact of the influx of the RPCES would
be, but time has proved that it broadened and strengthened
the New Side/New School segment of the PCA. The
RPCES was the result of the union of the dwindling Reformed
Presbyterian Church in North America, General
Synod (a “new light” break-off from the older Covenanter
denomination), and the larger Evangelical Presbyterian
Church (formerly the Bible Presbyterian Church).

It is the dominant Evangelical Presbyterian Church that
concerns us in trying to understand the PCA. In 1936
the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) was formed
by those, both Old School and New School, who left the
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A) during the Modernist controversy.
However, the unity of this new denomination
was not to last for long. In 1937 a group left the OPC
and formed the Bible Presbyterian Church. The Bible
Presbyterian Church itself split in 1955, with a minority
following Carl McIntire. The result was that there were
two BPCs: the Columbus Synod (the majority) and the
Collingswood Synod (the McIntire group). Eventually,
the Columbus Synod renamed itself the Evangelical
Presbyterian Church, merged with the New Light Covenanters
to form the RPCES in 1964, and was received
into the PCA in 1982.

To understand the RPCES and its impact on the PCA
we have to ask why the OPC split in 1937. D. G. Hart
has demonstrated, in Defending the Faith: J. Gresham
Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in
Modern America, that the “split paralleled almost exactly
the division earlier between Old School and New School
Presbyterians” (p.165). The need to stand against modernism
and unbelief had papered over the differences among
conservative Presbyterians, but these were soon revealed.

Machen stood for Old School strict confessionalism.
He heartily adopted strong Westminster Confession
Calvinism. Though he had led the formation of the Independent
Board for Foreign Missions, he was a Presbyterian
by conviction and practice and wanted the
Board to support only missionaries who accepted Reformed
theology and Presbyterian polity (which led to
his ouster from the Board even before the split). Machen
believed in the spirituality of the Church and in
the liberty of the Christian conscience; hence, for instance,
he did not endorse Prohibition.

These things proved too much for those who desired a
milder confessionalism (tolerant of not only premillennialism
but of dispensationalism), a minimizing of​Presbyterian distinctives and denominational differences,
and a Christian life characterized by separation
from “worldly practices.” Even though the side of the
BPC which became the EPC then the RPCES, was more
Reformed and Presbyterian and less combative than the
McIntire group, the roots remained New School; and,
though there was some indication the RPCES might
move toward Princeton Old School positions, this did
not materialize. The RPCES that joined the PCA was
and is predominantly New Side/New School and has
infused another stream of New Side/New Schoolism
into the PCA.75
75. [William H. Smith,] “What is the PCA? A New Side - New School
Church,” [http://thechristiancurmudgeonmo.blogspot.com/2013/07/
what-is-pca-new-side-new-school-church.html].

Cited in "Dropping the Subject, Again? The Decline of Sabbatarianism in the Old Southern Presbyterian Church and in the Presbyterian Church in America," _The Confessional Presbyterian_ 12 (2016): 87.


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## Pilgrim (May 23, 2017)

Can't you hear it now? "Those crazies on the PB think a Baptist school is better than our denomination's school. See, we told you that they were just a bunch of fundamentalists."


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## dsa03cjj (May 23, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> Can't you hear it now? "Those crazies on the PB think a Baptist school is better than our denomination's school. See, we told you that they were just a bunch of fundamentalists."



SBTS does have a great faculty: Schreiner, Haykin (one of my faves!!), Plummer (can teach Greek like no other), Allison, York, Garrett, Gentry, etc. Great men. 

That's a side note


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## Parakaleo (May 23, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> My wife does want to further her education at the Chicago School as well. They are great for psychology. Very few get in with a mere BA, so having an MA gets her foot in the door. She wants to do this professionally and in the church. We will see where God leads, though.



Brother, God has already said what is good.



> That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Titus 2:4-5)


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## Jacob Sweeney (Jun 6, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> SBTS does have a great faculty: Schreiner, Haykin (one of my faves!!), Plummer (can teach Greek like no other), Allison, York, Garrett, Gentry, etc. Great men.
> 
> That's a side note



Haykin, York, Pennington, and Eric Johnson were all my favorites. 

And, as an indirect answer to those questioning the decision to go to a school outside our denomination, it is worth noting that SBTS went through their confessional controversies over twenty years ago and has been growing ever since. They know what's at stake and work vigilantly to protect against it. Covenant, it seems, may be walking in blind to a challenge they've never faced before. For that reason, I would encourage anyone currently at SBTS considering a move into the PCA to stay at SBTS rather than move to Covenant. SBTS may hold a different confession that we do, but they know how to hold to a confession.

And as far as jobs go, anyone who would only be interested in hiring you because you went to their seminary is not someone who is going to lead you well. The right church wants to hire _you_, not your seminary. There's a reason Paul's list of qualifications for an elder all have to do with character and not where they were educated or the amount of experience they have.


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## dsa03cjj (Jun 23, 2017)

Jacob Sweeney said:


> Haykin, York, Pennington, and Eric Johnson were all my favorites.
> 
> And, as an indirect answer to those questioning the decision to go to a school outside our denomination, it is worth noting that SBTS went through their confessional controversies over twenty years ago and has been growing ever since. They know what's at stake and work vigilantly to protect against it. Covenant, it seems, may be walking in blind to a challenge they've never faced before. For that reason, I would encourage anyone currently at SBTS considering a move into the PCA to stay at SBTS rather than move to Covenant. SBTS may hold a different confession that we do, but they know how to hold to a confession.
> 
> And as far as jobs go, anyone who would only be interested in hiring you because you went to their seminary is not someone who is going to lead you well. The right church wants to hire _you_, not your seminary. There's a reason Paul's list of qualifications for an elder all have to do with character and not where they were educated or the amount of experience they have.



Jacob, where did you go to church while in Louisville?


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## Jacob Sweeney (Jun 23, 2017)

dsa03cjj said:


> Jacob, where did you go to church while in Louisville?



For the first year and a half I was on staff on a small church on the edge of town. I'm not sure it's still around. After that we went to Sojourn until we moved back to Houston.


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