# forgiveness and mistrust



## JennyG (Dec 20, 2010)

Wanting advice from those wiser than I am  
I discovered recently that a guy called Tom whom I would have trusted anywhere (I even told him so in so many words) has lied to me while trying to do me harm. 
When I discovered it I was utterly incredulous, and it took a long while to sink in. However I had no real sense of personal hurt, mainly because our connection is only what you might call a business one, and perhaps also because realistically, he had no chance of succeeding in what he set out to do. 
What with one thing and another, it feels quite easy to forgive him. 
On the other hand, practically, I shan't find it easy to trust him in future. 
Is that feeling compatible with real forgiveness?


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## Zenas (Dec 20, 2010)

I don't think I'm wiser than you or the next guy, but it seems to make sense that while we might forgive someone else, there are consequences when they wrong us. Forgiving someone and reverting to a perfect relationship with them don't seem completely synonymous. While it sounds right to forgive someone, it seems unwise to trust them again. My


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## Scott1 (Dec 20, 2010)

It's hard to know without more information (and not requesting it for this forum) but forgiveness is not quite the same thing as trust.

One must forgive to be right with God, as God forgives us unconditionally for Christ's sake. We try to mirror that, impossible to do perfectly, but only by His power, we must try.

It's quite something else to restore or return responsibility or authority to that person. Consequences, duties to others, and even duties to self involve loving God and loving our neighbor and that means we must do or not do some things, avoid some things, etc. even though we have forgiven.


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## Wayne (Dec 20, 2010)

Good advice thus far. Forgive, but you are forewarned now and have no need to put yourself in any place of further trusting this fellow.

The real trial would be in whether you might find yourself needing to warn others in the future about this guy's ways. Even there, I think you would be within your rights and even have a moral duty to warn someone else who might consider some business arrangement with the man.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 20, 2010)

Forgiveness is for your sake as well as the other person's. You must let go and forgive, you must also be ready to forgive should the individual repent. When someone sets out to intentionally harm you, there is need for repentance. Forgiveness is all forgiving before the repentance happens. Even so, until there is repentance, and some indication that you have a reason to trust the individual, it would be foolish to trust them again.


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## BJClark (Dec 20, 2010)

I think God's word speaks well on the topic of trust...men no matter who they are...Christians or not, will at some point break a trust..intentionally or not..those who do so intentionally should not be readily trusted in the future..those who do so unintentionally at least TRY to rebuild the trust..and realize the hurt they have caused the relationship..but trusting someone who has intentionally lied or set out to do harm..it may take a LONG while to trust them again..they would have to have a proven track record f being honest and trustworthy..

Jer 9:4 Let everyone beware of his neighbor, and put no trust in any brother, for every brother is a deceiver, and every neighbor goes about as a slanderer. 

Mic 7:5 Put no trust in a neighbor; have no confidence in a friend; guard the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms;


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## Edward (Dec 20, 2010)

While I generally agree with what Andrew says about trust, and Bobbi about forgiveness, I would be even stronger. If one has intentionally set out to betray or harm you, it would be foolish to ever trust them again. As to forgiveness, you should be ready to do so when they humbly come to you, confess, and repent. 

But forgiveness and trust are two completely different issues.


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## JennyG (Dec 21, 2010)

Thank you for all that helpful input. I didn't want to give more details on an open forum - it's connected with the sad situation in my church, which has really sorted people out, though I hope and believe we are now on the road to healing and new beginning. 
Some people have felt that at all costs disagreement should not mean enmity - but others like this guy seem to have decided anything is fair, if there's a chance of its advancing what they believe right for our parish. 
I was wondering if I was fooling myself in thinking I had forgiven - because it seemed effortless, and yet whenever I saw him something inside me said "....see if I ever trust *you* an inch ever again, hah!
So one other question. This has not been mentioned between us. I've spoken to him once or twice in public on indifferent matters, and I thought I could see in his eyes that he knew I knew - he must have known under the circumstances it was only a matter of time until I did. 
Ought I to seek an opportunity to talk it through with him, or just leave it like that, which is actually what I'd rather do?


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## JennyG (Dec 21, 2010)

...will it be unforgiving not to try and discuss it with him, - because then I won't be holding out an opportunity for repentance and reconciliation? Or is it ok, since nothing is actually stopping him from making the opportunity himself?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 21, 2010)

It may seem strange Jenny, but the best way to get your mind around forgiveness is to think of the offense in terms of a financial debt. Money is tangible. Let's say you loan me 100 dollars and then I don't pay you back. After a long awkward relationship I go to you and say, "please forgive my debt because I can't pay it." You do. Now, my debt is forgiven and you no longer hold me accountable for the money. What happened to the debt, did it evaporate? No, you absorbed it. You took the pain, the hurt, the inconvenience. When you forgave me it cost you something. Someone had to pay the debt and it was you. You forgave my financial debt because you had the financial and intestinal means to do so.

When someone hurts you emotionally it's no different. You just can't pretend it never happened because someone has to absorb the pain. Forgiveness requires prayer and a full understanding of what Christ has done for us. Christ has taken all debts upon himself so that if a brother hurts you then you ought to forgive. Even though we OUGHT we still must be aware that we will have to take the hurt upon ourselves. That requires emotional strength.

Forgiveness is the willingness to absorb the hurt and pain and free the offender from any further debt to you. Trust, is the willingness to risk being hurt again and having to absorb the pain again. Can you afford it emotionally? Maybe not, you may not be ready, but it should be your goal and Christs forgiveness of us it the foundation that we need to work from. Trust doesn't mean that you should be foolish but it does mean that you are willing to risk being hurt for the sake of the Gospel and the furthering of the Kingdom.


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## EricP (Dec 21, 2010)

Going through some trust and betrayal issues within my own family now, as the husband/father in my family I believe I must confront these issues directly particularly with our children, for whom I'm responsible. Similarly, if I were pastor of a church, I would feel the same obligation towards my Christian family (of course in an appropriate Scriptural way). I would think in your situation that you would not be obligated to confront the man involved directly: your ability to forgive him has little to do with what he does or has done, and almost everything with your godly attitude towards his behavior. More practically, God may not have worked in him in such a way at this point as to make that conversation fruitful for either of you. Perhaps the way to go is to pray for the opportunity--where God has worked in his heart in such a way as to bring him to you to ask forgiveness and so forth. Unless you are part of the leadership of your church, perhaps initial forays in that direction should be left to that leadership for now.


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## JennyG (Dec 21, 2010)

BobVigneault said:


> It may seem strange Jenny, but the best way to get your mind around forgiveness is to think of the offense in terms of a financial debt.
> 
> ...When someone hurts you emotionally it's no different.


thanks Bob, that is a helpful way of thinking about it, but I think one reason I haven't been sure of the way through this is that however I look into my heart, I can't *find* any emotional hurt - only a shock to my understanding, really. I suspect that what I was calling forgiveness might actually be more like thinking "I never had anything invested in that relationship, so I will just write Tom off from now on" - expressed like that it doesn't sound nearly so charitable. We were never even close to being friends, but it would be like rating him as simply not worth any time or thought. Maybe that's over-analysis. I do know that it would cost me something to confront him with it in cold blood.



EricP said:


> God may not have worked in him in such a way at this point as to make that conversation fruitful for either of you. Perhaps the way to go is to pray for the opportunity--where God has worked in his heart in such a way as to bring him to you to ask forgiveness and so forth



that's a good approach, thank you. Especially once you factor in British reticence, a forced confrontation might be very unlikely indeed to be fruitful.
Thank you again everybody for so much good counsel!


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## BJClark (Dec 21, 2010)

JennyG;



> will it be unforgiving not to try and discuss it with him, - because then I won't be holding out an opportunity for repentance and reconciliation? Or is it ok, since nothing is actually stopping him from making the opportunity himself?



Forgiveness and trust are two different things..

Even looking at Bob's example using money...he came and sought forgiveness because he couldn't repay the debt..but would you then *loan* the person money again in the future, expecting repayment, because they said they would repay? Or would you just give the money knowing the debt would never be repaid? Or would you not give them money at all?

Loaning them money again and expecting repayment, without knowing if their situation to repay has changed would be foolish..unless you have something in writing (it would allow for you to be gracious and merciful, but also allow for other legal consequences if they didn't repay)
Giving them money without expecting repayment...would be showing grace and mercy, and you absorb all the cost willingly..
not giving or loaning money--could also be seen as loving..allowing them to suffer any other natural consequences


However, even for this type of situation where someone has hurt you..God gives us direction on how we, as Christians should handle things..not only for us, but for those who have sinned against us as well...

This is what the other is called to do..as a Christian..and it shows a repentant heart and one that is seeking to truly follow God..he should be willing to seek forgiveness..

Mat 5:23-24 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 

However, IF that is not happening...we look to this guidance..

Matthew 18:15-16 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

So do you wait for him to come to you confessing and seeking your forgiveness or do you go to him and address the situation...if you go to him and address the situation with him, you would be following Scripture..and what God calls us to do..but to say nothing, expecting him to show fruit may only cause you to become even more bitter towards him, because even though he is professing to be a 'follower' of Christ, and he's not doing as Christ tells him to do, (going to those whom he has hurt and offended, confessing and seeking their forgiveness, trying to bring about reconciliation because God says that's what HE should do) it could cause you to become even more bitter and hardhearted towards him..which would not be good for your relationship with God..because then, you would have ought against your brother..and you would need to go to him anyway leaving your gift at the alter to go try and reconcile things between you..


So yes, it would be appropriate for you to go and say something to him...

---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

JennyG; 



> God may not have worked in him in such a way at this point as to make that conversation fruitful for either of you. Perhaps the way to go is to pray for the opportunity--where God has worked in his heart in such a way as to bring him to you to ask forgiveness and so forth



Yes, but he may not even realize she knows what he's done, and he may be looking at it from a pride filled heart.."what she doesn't know won't hurt her, and I'm not going to go and confess my sin against her..to her, as that will just make me look bad, and why rock that boat??" that's trying to hide our sin..whereas IF she goes and speaks up..he would then be faced with the truth..that his sin against her is not a secret..where God desires him to confess and repent..

Is this the same gentleman that was removed from the pulpit that has already shown by his actions he is running from God??


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## BobVigneault (Dec 21, 2010)

Thanks for getting me to think about this Jenny. I decided to think some more and I blogged about it. I took an application from Christ's teaching on discipleship. Here's the blog, and here is the part I added:

Forgiveness is the willingness to absorb the hurt and pain in order to free the offender from any further debt to you. Trust, is the willingness to risk being hurt AGAIN and having to absorb the pain AGAIN.


You OUGHT to forgive but let’s follow the Lords teaching from a sermon on discipleship in Luke 14,

28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Reconciliation is like the rebuilding of a tower. You ought to build it but you ALSO ought to count the cost. If you don’t consider the amount of hurt or loss that you must absorb then you may find the whole attempt crumbling and even more pain will come to all involved.


Forgiveness? Trust? Can you afford these emotionally? Maybe not! You may not be ready, but it should be your goal and Christ’s forgiveness of us is the foundation that we need to work from. Trust doesn't mean that you should be foolish but it does mean that you are willing to risk being hurt for the sake of the Gospel and the furthering of the Kingdom. In all things, may God be glorified.


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## Scott1 (Dec 21, 2010)

JennyG said:


> ...will it be unforgiving not to try and discuss it with him, - because then I won't be holding out an opportunity for repentance and reconciliation? Or is it ok, since nothing is actually stopping him from making the opportunity himself?


 
It is hard to know without more (and I'm not asking for it in this forum).

My sense would be to lean on the providence of God. Ask God for grace to rest in that.

As long as there is not an active harm here, it would be, not feeling obligated to "seek out" this person out for engagement, chastisement, etc. but to rest in God who may bring about appropriate opportunity and circumstances to do so. Ask for grace to forgive and forget, knowing God may appoint a circumstance and this will all become more clear.


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## JennyG (Dec 21, 2010)

BJClark said:


> Yes, but he may not even realize she knows what he's done, and he may be looking at it from a pride filled heart.."what she doesn't know won't hurt her, and I'm not going to go and confess my sin against her..to her, as that will just make me look bad, and why rock that boat??" that's trying to hide our sin..whereas IF she goes and speaks up..he would then be faced with the truth..that his sin against her is not a secret..where God desires him to confess and repent..


I'm pretty certain he must know that I know. Perhaps I should have posted about all this in a private forum. 



> Is this the same gentleman that was removed from the pulpit that has already shown by his actions he is running from God??


no it's not him, only one of his most die-hard supporters.
thank you again for everyone's good counsel. I've been offline most of the day so I haven't yet been able to think it all through....but it's such a blessing to be able to bring something like this here

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------

...and actually discover WBWD


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