# Distance seminary



## mpsiple (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm looking for opinions about your experience taking distance seminary classes. What seminary? Did you like it? How was the interaction with the professors (if any)?

I'm specifically looking into GPTS and RTS Atlanta/Charlotte.


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## Romans922 (Oct 31, 2011)

Gpts.


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## SolaScriptura (Oct 31, 2011)

For a number of reasons I would discourage you from trying to do an MDiv via distance/independent studies. Why not drive to the campus and enroll as a student?


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## mpsiple (Oct 31, 2011)

If you think it's important, why don't you give me a couple of those reasons?


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## Romans922 (Oct 31, 2011)

Matt, 

What is your purpose of getting an MDiv? Is your Session supporting the move to get an MDiv?


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## mpsiple (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm considering pastoral ministry.

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 PM ----------

Oh, and I have not spoken with my session formally. I've discussed it at length with one of our pastors. I'm not "all in" at this point. Still mulling.


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## Romans922 (Oct 31, 2011)

Before you start searching out a seminary, perhaps it would be wise to talk with the session formally. Test your gifts and see if you have an external calling to the ministry or not. It would be a waste of resources to get an MDiv and not be called (unless you were doing it to get more biblical and theological training).


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## mpsiple (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree that I should test my gifts, that I should seek an external call, and that it would be a waste of resources to pursue an MDiv without being called. "Here, here!" to all of that. But it seems reasonable to research what options are available while I continue to consider these things.

So ... does anyone have a good/bad experience with distance seminary education that they'd like to share?


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## Romans922 (Oct 31, 2011)

I went to RTS Jackson. I took a few distance classes to get my degree a semester earlier than if I hadn't. In the classes I took distance, I learned significantly less than I did for those classes I was in the classroom. All RTS virtual classes are going to be the same. It doesn't really differ from one campus to another. Also, you can't get an MDiv from RTS taking complete distance classes, there are a certain # of hours you have to have on campus... 

I'm recommending GPTS distance (if you had to take some classes distance) because I believe the teaching and academic rigor will be better all around, though I would recommend taking as many classes in person as possible. 

Then again you should also listen to your session and/or presbytery to see what seminary they recommend.


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## Covenant Joel (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi Matt,

I graduated from the RTS distance program, though I spent a year on campus before switching to the distance program. I would definitely agree with the advice given here about listening to your session and presbytery about what they would recommend.

A couple things about the RTS distance program. It is much better now than it used to be. Classes are now actually online. You will interact directly with professors online. I actually ending up having a lot more direct interaction with professors (which come primarily from Orlando and Charlotte, though heavily tilted towards Charlotte) online than I did on campus. So the rigor and value on the online classes is now, in my opinion, equal to that of the on-campus ones.

However, I would also say that you have to have the right personality for the distance classes. As with all educational endeavors, you get what you put into it. I loved the distance classes because I was actually able to far more in-depth study into the class areas than I did on campus. On campus I only ever had time to read just the required reading and look up some things for papers. Because I went through a little slower while engaged in ministry, I was able to read tons on the subjects included in my classes, and I really felt that I learned more in them than I did in my on-campus classes. But for some people, the experience might be the exact opposite.

As to possible programs, I have a post on my blog that lists some of the options for distance classes. RTS is the only Reformed school that is accredited and offers distance classes (though you can only get the MAR, not the M.Div., though you can apply distance classes to the M.Div. on one of the campuses). And so it is more expensive than the unaccredited ones (now about $400/credit hour, though there are scholarships available). Birmingham Theological Seminary and Greenville will run you somewhere between $150-$200/credit hour, if I remember correctly. Usually you can transfer some credits between the schools, so if you get affirmation from your session, but aren't ready to go full-time or completely commit, you could take a class or two from any one of those and get a good feel for whether or not you would want to pursue it further. Puritan Reformed Seminary also offers some distance classes, though I think you can only do about 50% of the degree by distance.


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## JWY (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree with Covenant Joel's assessment. I am currently an RTS-V M.A.R. student and the program works very well In my humble opinion. I am finishing my third course with Dr. John Frame and I have been able to correspond directly with him throughout each course. It is very well organized.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

And for the record (since pro-distance-learning posts can really get some people fired up), I do believe that face-to-face, bricks-and-mortar education is preferable, especially if your going into full-time pastoral ministry. I am not (as far as I know anyway), and that certainly influenced my decision to go the distance-learning route.


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## Damon Rambo (Oct 31, 2011)

Should you be called into the ministry, I highly recommend distance education. It is highly effective. I suggest you intern under the pastors/elders of your church, in conjunction with your studies. I believe this is the best model for preparation for ministry, and will allow you to save money besides...


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## gordo (Nov 1, 2011)

Very interesting. Sorry to semi-hijack, but can anyone recommend a good distance school for college level Christian/Bible courses? That RTS looks great, but of course it is post-graduate, even for the certificate courses. 

Thanks!


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## mpsiple (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks for your responses!


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## AThornquist (Nov 2, 2011)

I highly recommend you read this article posted by Dr. Robert Gonzales of Reformed Baptist Seminary (though the article is written by Jerrold H. Lewis): Distance Learning and the Ministry. Quite frankly, if you are under the discipleship/mentorship of a pastor or session, either distance or brick and mortar schools will work. Your circumstances and your goals would be the determining factor, in my opinion.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Nov 2, 2011)

Moody offers an online B.S. in Biblical Studies. They aren't reformed but there are some Calvinist profs. I would say Moody is pretty balanced and responsible in their scholarship.


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## elnwood (Nov 2, 2011)

mpsiple said:


> I'm looking for opinions about your experience taking distance seminary classes. What seminary? Did you like it? How was the interaction with the professors (if any)?
> 
> I'm specifically looking into GPTS and RTS Atlanta/Charlotte.



Matt, how important is accreditation to you? At this time, I don't think you can get an accredited M.Div. without at least a year of residential classes.


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## tabrooks (Nov 3, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> I highly recommend you read this article posted by Dr. Robert Gonzales of Reformed Baptist Seminary (though the article is written by Jerrold H. Lewis): Distance Learning and the Ministry. Quite frankly, if you are under the discipleship/mentorship of a pastor or session, either distance or brick and mortar schools will work. Your circumstances and your goals would be the determining factor, in my opinion.


Yes, this seminary combines the best of both worlds. You should definitely consider it as an excellent option.
Reformed Baptist Seminary - Home


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## Damon Rambo (Nov 3, 2011)

elnwood said:


> mpsiple said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking for opinions about your experience taking distance seminary classes. What seminary? Did you like it? How was the interaction with the professors (if any)?
> ...



Thats not true at all. Neither the six Regional Accrediting bodies, nor any of the national accreditors, except one, require any residency. Only ATS has a residency requirement for the M.Div. There are actually dozens of accredited all Distance M.Div.s... not sure if there is a Presbyterian one, though.


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## elnwood (Nov 3, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> Thats not true at all. Neither the six Regional Accrediting bodies, nor any of the national accreditors, except one, require any residency. Only ATS has a residency requirement for the M.Div.



ATS is what I had in mind.



Damon Rambo said:


> There are actually dozens of accredited all Distance M.Div.s... not sure if there is a Presbyterian one, though.



"Dozens"? I highly doubt that. Can you really name more than a dozen accredited M.Div. programs with no residency requirements?


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## mpsiple (Nov 4, 2011)

Here's what I'm looking for - again: At what seminary did you take distance classes? What did you like about it or not like about it? Did it meet your goals? How did it help you in a way that being on campus might not? How was the interaction with the professors (if any)?

I understand that there a lot of variables in considering if you ought to go to seminary, which seminary to choose, whether accreditation is important, etc. But I'm not asking about those things here. I'm asking about particular experiences with the distance model.

Thanks again.


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## Damon Rambo (Nov 4, 2011)

elnwood said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > Thats not true at all. Neither the six Regional Accrediting bodies, nor any of the national accreditors, except one, require any residency. Only ATS has a residency requirement for the M.Div.
> ...



Ahh. 


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > There are actually dozens of accredited all Distance M.Div.s... not sure if there is a Presbyterian one, though.
> ...


[/quote]

Yes, dozens. Lets see if I can name over a dozen...

Liberty University
Apex School of Theology
Beulah Heights University
Luther Rice Seminary
Central Baptist Theological Seminary
Faith Evangelical College and Seminary
Global University
Piedmont Baptist College and Graduate School
Shasta Bible College
Tennessee Temple University
Trinity Baptist College
Kings Seminary
World Mission University


There are a lot more...and the list explodes even more if we add the "Master of Ministry" degree to the equation.


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## Bill The Baptist (Nov 4, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> Should you be called into the ministry, I highly recommend distance education. It is highly effective. I suggest you intern under the pastors/elders of your church, in conjunction with your studies. I believe this is the best model for preparation for ministry, and will allow you to save money besides...



I agree with you completely, and actually I am going to do just that once I finish this semester at Southeastern. My church has offered to do an internship program with me and I will also take classes online. Going the traditional seminary route is great for young guys with little responsibility, but for older men like me with five children it is just about impossible.


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 4, 2011)

I did the NOBTS extension program for 3 semesters. It was inconsistent at best. In their defense, they were just getting it started; it's probably better now. 

Finished an M.A. at SBTS on the main Louisville campus & then re-enrolled toward M.Div. through their online program while pastoring in NC. I loved that course of study for many of the same reasons CovenantJoel mentioned, but mostly because I could dig as deep as I wanted into the subject matter during a particular class. Most of the online profs I already knew from my on-campus time, so I knew exactly what to expect as far as correspondence & actual interaction; on the whole, they were very good about communication, grading, course expectations, etc. The courses in my online studies were every bit as rigorous as the on-campus classes. 

Full disclosure: one prof really dropped the ball in terms of communication, but he teaches in the Lead School and my studies are in the School of Theology (it was a required elective for my degree plan). 

Overall, the SBTS online program was a joy.


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## N. Eshelman (Nov 4, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > mpsiple said:
> ...



Dozens? 

I see absolutely no wisdom in taking homiletics courses via distance. If you want to learn to preach- go learn to preach. An MDiv that requires no preaching "hands on" or "on site" seems out there to me.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------




Damon Rambo said:


> Yes, dozens. Lets see if I can name over a dozen...
> 
> Liberty University
> Apex School of Theology
> ...



And as a Confessional and Reformed board, which of these schools, although granting a Master of Divinity, would PRODUCE a Master of Divinity?


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 4, 2011)

Nathan, 

I agree with your statement about the homiletics course. It would have to be taken under the supervision of a gifted & trained local pastor, I suppose? I'm not sure how SBTS handles their online preaching classes (or if they even offer them online). I took mine while on-campus there. 

And I will add (from experience) that distance language courses are also in that category of really difficult to do via distance.


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## elnwood (Nov 5, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > Damon Rambo said:
> ...



I looked up the schools, and Apex School of Theology, Faith Evangelical Seminary, Global University, Liberty University, Luther Rice Seminary and Tennessee Temple University offer a complete M.Div. online.

As for the others ...
Beulah Heights doesn't offer distance learning for their M.Div., only for A.A., B.A., and M.A.
Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Virginia Beach) has an M.Div., but only a year of it can be done by distance.
Piedmont Graduate School has no M.Div. degree.
Shasta Bible College and Graduate School's M.Div. requires 32 units of residency.
Trinity Baptist College has no M.Div. degree.
Kings Seminary's M.Div. requires at least a third of the classes in residency.
World Missions University is an ATS Candidate, so if it has a distance M.Div., it is going away soon. Also, it's primary language of instruction is Korean.

Keep going! Can you find over a dozen?


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## fredtgreco (Nov 5, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > Should you be called into the ministry, I highly recommend distance education. It is highly effective. I suggest you intern under the pastors/elders of your church, in conjunction with your studies. I believe this is the best model for preparation for ministry, and will allow you to save money besides...
> ...


 I think that there are some advantages to distance ed, and I don't advise an "always do it this way" approach," but it is not impossible to do what you say, brother.

I went to seminary at the age of 34, with four children (including a two week old) and graduated in three years. During that time I worked a full time job, preached every week (AM and PM services) at a church, and was a TA for a professor.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 6, 2011)

> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > elnwood said:
> ...



Central Baptist of VA or MN? 

Although I'm not one to say accreditation is the be all and end all (viz. GPTS) I think that some will quibble with the legitimate accreditation, academic rigor and quality of education in general of some of these unless there's been a recent change. For example, I know of one brother who used to post on this board who had degrees from Luther Rice and later felt the need to start all over again at Southern.


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## elnwood (Nov 6, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> Although I'm not one to say accreditation is the be all and end all (viz. GPTS) I think that some will quibble with the legitimate accreditation, academic rigor and quality of education in general of some of these unless there's been a recent change. For example, I know of one brother who used to post on this board who had degrees from Luther Rice and later felt the need to start all over again at Southern.



All of the above seminaries are accredited by TRACS. For what it's worth, the ATS-accredited seminary I attended would not allow transfer credits from TRACS-accredited schools.


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## Siberian (Nov 9, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> For example, I know of one brother who used to post on this board who had degrees from Luther Rice and later felt the need to start all over again at Southern.



That same brother readily admits that today's Luther Rice is nothing like it was when he received training there. They have come along way in every area, especially academics.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 9, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> will allow you to save money besides



Schools add fees for online classes, so how are they saving money?

---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------




reaganmarsh said:


> I'm not sure how SBTS handles their online preaching classes (or if they even offer them online).



Liberty requires you to video tape yourself "preaching" to an audience of at least 15 people. I would imagine SBTS and others do something similar.


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 9, 2011)

Chaplainintraining,

In the preaching class at SBTS, we had to preach once in front of the class and twice outside of the class, and video each sermon. After that we had a written review from each classmate and from the professor evaluating (in real-time & then again written later) our takeoff & landing, content, exegesis, exposition, transitions, application, etc. We then wrote our own analysis & critique of the sermons, as well as listening to a required set of sermons that semester in chapel & discussing them in class w/ the professors (we had 2 profs teaching our class together). Of course there were the lectures & books & papers too. Lots of interaction; still wish it had been under the direct oversight of my pastor at the time.

I agree with you -- I imagine that a distance/online option would involve video, and I suppose the prof could give you a written evaluation, and maybe if the videos were posted on a site then you could review the other guys & they could review you. Still not sure that it would be ideal though. It's not the same. Not that it would be unprofitable; just don't think it would be best. But if it's a man's only option, and it could be studied under the close oversight of the elders of his church, then it would probably work out pretty well. 

Just my $0.02.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 9, 2011)

reaganmarsh said:


> Chaplainintraining,
> 
> In the preaching class at SBTS, we had to preach once in front of the class and twice outside of the class, and video each sermon. After that we had a written review from each classmate and from the professor evaluating (in real-time & then again written later) our takeoff & landing, content, exegesis, exposition, transitions, application, etc. We then wrote our own analysis & critique of the sermons, as well as listening to a required set of sermons that semester in chapel & discussing them in class w/ the professors (we had 2 profs teaching our class together). Of course there were the lectures & books & papers too. Lots of interaction; still wish it had been under the direct oversight of my pastor at the time.
> 
> ...



Oh I thought you were talking about SBTS via distance or something. I was just explaining how Liberty does it (I know some who have graduated from there). My experience at DTS is very similar to what you described at SBTS. 

I think homiletics via distance is a complete joke. Nowhere near adequate.


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## Siberian (Nov 9, 2011)

reaganmarsh said:


> Chaplainintraining,
> 
> In the preaching class at SBTS, we had to preach once in front of the class and twice outside of the class, and video each sermon. After that we had a written review from each classmate and from the professor evaluating (in real-time & then again written later) our takeoff & landing, content, exegesis, exposition, transitions, application, etc. We then wrote our own analysis & critique of the sermons, as well as listening to a required set of sermons that semester in chapel & discussing them in class w/ the professors (we had 2 profs teaching our class together). Of course there were the lectures & books & papers too. Lots of interaction; still wish it had been under the direct oversight of my pastor at the time.
> 
> ...



All of my graduate homiletic classes were completed via distance ed. In each class, the prof required us to preach in a church (if possible), video it and recruit 4 in the congregation to fill out the evals. All of that, along with the preaching notes, was posted on Blackboard for the other classmates to critique (and each student was assigned four other students to critique), and finally the professor weighed in.

In my undergrad homiletics, which was done in residence, the process was very similar, minus the church and technology. I'm not sure if there is a clear advantage either way.


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## reaganmarsh (Nov 12, 2011)

Boliver, sorry if I wasn't clear. My on-campus studies at SBTS ended in 2008 when I finished the M.A.; I took preaching during that on-campus stint. My online studies at SBTS toward the M.Div. commenced in 2009. I'm currently trying to wade through Hebrew via an online course...thus the closing statement of my previous comment. No fun. Better than no Hebrew at all, but no fun. I couldn't imagine trying to take a preaching class in this present context. 

Gordon, I am with you that a clear advantage isn't in view. The format I took is preferable for the immediate face-to-face interaction with the prof. And my particular class was unique in that I studied under Russ Moore & David Prince (Rev. Prince, an experienced pastor, is pursuing his PhD in preaching at SBTS focusing on redemptive-historical theology and its immediate application to preaching). So that was a really unique class by two very gifted preacher-instructors. But as I stated above, I could see a definite advantage in the right context of taking the class under the direct oversight of one's elders and pastor. Ergo, your situation. 

Grace to you both as you seek to proclaim God's grace to dying men.


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