# Passover Family Ceremony



## Frosty

Who on the board holds a Passover ceremony for the family this time of year? If you do, then could you kindly explain how you do this?

Is there anyone who is opposed to this sort of practice? What are the reasons?

Obviously there are no sacrifices to be had, as the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb is once-for-all. But I know many have the ceremony with family as a time of remembrance.

Thoughts?

Thanks.


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## Jack K

There are missteps we might easily take, and must be wary of, if we try to have a Passover celebration:

- We wouldn't want to supplant the celebratory meal Jesus gave us (communion) with something else that feels richer or more exotic to us.

- We wouldn't want to do it just because it feels good to act Jewish or because we revere anything that's Jewish. We're Christians after all.

- We wouldn't want to take the non-biblical, rabbinic symbols of a modern-day Seder and co-opt them to give them a meaning that's about Christ. It's easy to take the elements of a Seder and come up with such meanings. But why do that when we have many biblical symbols pointing to Christ to focus on instead? We don't want to use as our starting point symbols that come from a religion that has rejected Christ, even if doing so gives us mushy spiritual feelings.

- We wouldn't want to start thinking that acting Jewish, or being ethnically Jewish, somehow makes one a deeper or better Christian.

- We wouldn't want to think it would be cool to go back to celebrating festivals that were only shadows of the joy we now have in Christ. As good as those God-given festivals were, they are empty compared to the fleshed-out reality we know today.

That said, I don't know exactly what sort of family celebration you have in mind. I suppose one could avoid these pitfalls. I've even play-acted a Passover meal with kids in order to teach about the festival through active learning. But I've also seen many "Christian" Passover meals that get caught up in one or more of these unhealthy ways of thinking.


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## Tim

Is partaking of the Lord's Supper corporately with your Christian brothers and sisters not enough?


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## seajayrice

You can find all the necessary implements at the grocery store. Basic Seder/Pesach/Passover rituals are online. We have demonstrated the Seder ceremony for our kids and may do so again in the future. For me, the Seder feast represents a good teaching opportunity for the kids, matter of fact think, I we will do it this year. Nothing kicks off the Holy Season like a good Passover Feast!


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## toddpedlar

seajayrice said:


> You can find all the necessary implements at the grocery store. Basic Seder/Pesach/Passover rituals are online. We have demonstrated the Seder ceremony for our kids and may do so again in the future. For me, the Seder feast represents a good teaching opportunity for the kids, matter of fact think, I we will do it this year. Nothing kicks off the Holy Season like a good Passover Feast!


 

"The Holy Season"?

Is not each Lord's Day "The Holy Season"?


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## seajayrice

toddpedlar said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can find all the necessary implements at the grocery store. Basic Seder/Pesach/Passover rituals are online. We have demonstrated the Seder ceremony for our kids and may do so again in the future. For me, the Seder feast represents a good teaching opportunity for the kids, matter of fact think, I we will do it this year. Nothing kicks off the Holy Season like a good Passover Feast!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The Holy Season"?
> 
> Is not each Lord's Day "The Holy Season"?
Click to expand...

 
Todd

Indeed, I was joshin' with the ex-Romish


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## tcalbrecht

Frosty said:


> Who on the board holds a Passover ceremony for the family this time of year? If you do, then could you kindly explain how you do this?
> 
> Is there anyone who is opposed to this sort of practice? What are the reasons?
> 
> Obviously there are no sacrifices to be had, as the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb is once-for-all. But I know many have the ceremony with family as a time of remembrance.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks.


 

Shadows vs. substance. Passover vs. the Lord’s Supper. Do you plan to sacrifice and roast a lamb? If not, you are merely observing some form of post-resurrection rabbinic (aka human) traditions. Why propagate the notion of (ersatz) shadows with your family? What can it teach that cannot be taught more perfectly from the Word itself?

Biblical Passover was for a church under age. Rabbinic Passover is for apostates.


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## Kevin

We do not do it. The reason is because it is an act of pagan worship & is forbidden in the NT. Paul says (I Cor 10:14-22) that the rituals of "Israel after the flesh" is the worship of demons.

As Pauls says, why tempt God?


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## Peairtach

The way they were meant to do it would involve taking the lamb to the Temple to get its throat cut by a priest and its blood splashed on the sides of the altar.

If you want to educate people about the Old Testament feasts then you could go through it - but remember about the bits that have been changed by the Jewish rabbis. I would just go through it for educational purposes rather than celebrate it.

The types and shadows of the Old Covenant have fallen away in Christ as being appropriate for the childhood Church; but the moral and spiritual lessons remain for the New Covenant Church as she matures. This is the genius of the typology that God has provided for the Israel of God, Old and New.

We should concentrate on learning the moral and spiritual lessons of the now defunct types and shadows rather than bringing the types and shadows back themselves.



> When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. (I Cor 13:11, ESV)



The maturing and adult Israel continues to learn daily lessons from her childhood even though her picturebooks and childish discipline have been put away. This is another reason why the singing of Psalms by Israel (i.e. the Church) is so important.


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## Andres

Frosty said:


> Is there anyone who is opposed to this sort of practice? What are the reasons?



I am opposed to it for just about all of the reasons already given. Perhaps then a better question might be - what are your reasons for wanting to participate?


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## Frosty

Thank you to those who offered up helpful answers to my questions.



Andres said:


> Perhaps then a better question might be - what are your reasons for wanting to participate?



I would like you to note that I never said I had participated in any sort of Passover Family ceremony, nor did I mention wanting to participate. What I wanted to gauge is the standard Reformed view of such. I know some families that hold one, but didn't know much about it.



Jack K said:


> I've even play-acted a Passover meal with kids in order to teach about the festival through active learning.



I think this probably resembles what the families I know go through. Not too sure though.


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## MarieP

Frosty said:


> Who on the board holds a Passover ceremony for the family this time of year? If you do, then could you kindly explain how you do this?
> 
> Is there anyone who is opposed to this sort of practice? What are the reasons?
> 
> Obviously there are no sacrifices to be had, as the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb is once-for-all. But I know many have the ceremony with family as a time of remembrance.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks.


 
Isn't it your Christian liberty to hold it? That is, if your family consents to doing so as well.


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## Tim

No, it is not an issue of liberty, because it is an issue of worship and sacrifice.


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## MarieP

Tim said:


> No, it is not an issue of liberty, because it is an issue of worship and sacrifice.


 
By the ceremony I was thinking he meant not the sacrifice but the Seder meal. Wouldn't Passover be one of the days Paul spoke of in Romans 14:5-6?

Though, Paul does say in Col. 2
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 

Before when I read that, I thought Paul was saying not to let anyone judge you if you do or don't observe a festival. But this time I wonder if he's saying don't let anyone judge you when you don't keep it ? Which way is correct, in your estimation?

BTW, I don't keep it, and I haven't been to a Seder (though at a previous church, someone did bring some of the foods in one time and explain the symbolism.)


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## Kevin

Marie I agree with Tim, that this is not a matter of liberty. Read I Cor 10:14-22.

Christian liberty extends to matters of diference in christian worship, but not to the participation in pagan rituals.


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## Andres

Frosty said:


> I would like you to note that I never said I had participated in any sort of Passover Family ceremony, nor did I mention wanting to participate. What I wanted to gauge is the standard Reformed view of such. I know some families that hold one, but didn't know much about it.



Sorry for assuming this brother. I was wrong to do so.


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## MarieP

So what days does Paul have in mind in Romans? Is Colossians condemning the keeping of feast days? Was Paul wrong to have washed himself and prepared a sacrifice (knowing he never went through with it before he was arrested). Does the answer lie in that Paul was a Jew?

Or does Romans 14:6 no longer apply because those days literally can't be kept because the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD?

Another text came to mind: Galatians 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. 

And good point about the Rabbinic vs Biblical way of keeping those days...

Trying to sort this out!


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## JBaldwin

A few times, while my children were younger, we celebrated a Messianic passover meal at passover time. Personally, it was a great teaching time for my children, where we learned about the history of passover, the connections to the Lord's table and they learned Jesus is our once for all sacrifice. The service we used focused on the crucifixtion, the ressurection and the 2nd coming. I really don't have a problem with that. In other words, we used this as a teaching time, rather than a celebration of a festival.


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## louis_jp

I attended a Passover Seder led by David Brickner some years ago. It was meaningful to me at the time, and left a big impression. I would not do it today, for all the reasons mentioned by others in this post. I think Richard's quote about sums it up:



Richard Tallach said:


> We should concentrate on learning the moral and spiritual lessons of the now defunct types and shadows rather than bringing the types and shadows back themselves.



I'm not sure I agree though, that we don't have liberty to do it, if one so chooses.


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## Grillsy

louis_jp said:


> I'm not sure I agree though, that we don't have liberty to do it, if one so chooses.



Since it would technically be a matter of worship, we ought to give pause and think about if we really have liberty to perform rituals now made defunct and therefore no longer prescribed by Scripture.


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## Contra_Mundum

Paul's point to the Colossians, generally, is to free them from the attempt to bind their consciences to typological observances that were once commanded ritual, but which are now no longer matters of religion.

Because of the ingrained traditions that were fused to the Old Covenant Church as also being a cultural/national identity, we see a period of transition and an allowance or toleration in the New Testament of our Lord. The Jews are not to be forcibly ripped out of their cultural patterns, for the sake of new conformities.

But it is noteworthy that the "weaker" brother (as I interpret Paul) is quite often the Jewish Christian, who has the most trouble with leaving the old shadows behind, with meat sacrifices to idols, etc. Paul says to bear with these dear people, as they are weaned from their old way of life. Unlike the pagan religions, which ought to be abandoned in one fell swoop, lock-stock-and-barrel, the Old Covenant trappings and social customs had divine origin.

And for this cause, it was a respectful New Covenant Church (coming to be dominated by Gentile believers) that needed to allow time to erase the residue of that "wall" that had been broken down. The "forces of nature" would soon enough cover those relics, wear away the rough edges, and let the church as a whole visit those places as Galeed.

But, I confess some serious reservation at this point regarding encouraging the Church (and individuals or families of it) attempting to "revive" a practice of those rites, even just to "relive" them for the sake of an enhanced, sensory-learning experience. This is not the process that Paul is talking about, when he says we are not to judge those who keep (or don't keep) certain days. It has the feel of "make-believe," as when tourists in Hawaii sit down at a "traditional luau" and a guy in a grass skirt explains this and that, and hula-girls dance for the faux-bigshots, while acrobats do their thing.


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## louis_jp

Grillsy said:


> Since it would technically be a matter of worship, we ought to give pause and think about if we really have liberty to perform rituals now made defunct and therefore no longer prescribed by Scripture.



Willie, could you briefly make the connection to some source of authority as to how it is a matter of worship?


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## Contra_Mundum

louis_jp said:


> Willie, could you briefly make the connection to some source of authority as to how it is a matter of worship?



If I may be permitted the interjection,
In such a situation, in the nature of the case the activity will be either "historic/cultural" or "historic/religious," or some combination of the two.

To the extent that the rituals put us in mind of religion, of God, of the Church, etc., it is worshipful and deals in holy things.

So, is the practice consistent with the prescribed manner of considering these things as revealed in Scripture?


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## MarieP

Contra_Mundum said:


> Paul's point to the Colossians, generally, is to free them from the attempt to bind their consciences to typological observances that were once commanded ritual, but which are now no longer matters of religion.
> 
> Because of the ingrained traditions that were fused to the Old Covenant Church as also being a cultural/national identity, we see a period of transition and an allowance or toleration in the New Testament of our Lord. The Jews are not to be forcibly ripped out of their cultural patterns, for the sake of new conformities.
> 
> But it is noteworthy that the "weaker" brother (as I interpret Paul) is quite often the Jewish Christian, who has the most trouble with leaving the old shadows behind, with meat sacrifices to idols, etc. Paul says to bear with these dear people, as they are weaned from their old way of life. Unlike the pagan religions, which ought to be abandoned in one fell swoop, lock-stock-and-barrel, the Old Covenant trappings and social customs had divine origin.
> 
> And for this cause, it was a respectful New Covenant Church (coming to be dominated by Gentile believers) that needed to allow time to erase the residue of that "wall" that had been broken down. The "forces of nature" would soon enough cover those relics, wear away the rough edges, and let the church as a whole visit those places as Galeed.
> 
> But, I confess some serious reservation at this point regarding encouraging the Church (and individuals or families of it) attempting to "revive" a practice of those rites, even just to "relive" them for the sake of an enhanced, sensory-learning experience. This is not the process that Paul is talking about, when he says we are not to judge those who keep (or don't keep) certain days. It has the feel of "make-believe," as when tourists in Hawaii sit down at a "traditional luau" and a guy in a grass skirt explains this and that, and hula-girls dance for the faux-bigshots, while acrobats do their thing.


 
Thanks!! Makes total sense to me!!!


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## Joseph Scibbe

My family used to do it and I would like to do it in the future with my family. I think it can be a great teaching time for your children and everyone knows kids love object lessons! I object to the idea that this is a "pagan ritual". First of all, I don't think that it Judaism could be defined as a pagan religion. It may not be true but it is not "pagan". And second, didn't Paul speak about these things when he said to not "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths".


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## Grillsy

louis_jp said:


> Willie, could you briefly make the connection to some source of authority as to how it is a matter of worship?



Revered Buchanan pretty much summed it up for me.


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## Joseph Scibbe

Contra_Mundum said:


> louis_jp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Willie, could you briefly make the connection to some source of authority as to how it is a matter of worship?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I may be permitted the interjection,
> In such a situation, in the nature of the case the activity will be either "historic/cultural" or "historic/religious," or some combination of the two.
> 
> To the extent that the rituals put us in mind of religion, of God, of the Church, etc., it is worshipful and deals in holy things.
> 
> So, is the practice consistent with the prescribed manner of considering these things as revealed in Scripture?
Click to expand...

 
So, if I am reading you correctly, which I may not be, then anything that reminds of of some "worship service" but is not "true worship" is off limits. Is that correct?


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## MarieP

Unashamed 116 said:


> My family used to do it and I would like to do it in the future with my family. I think it can be a great teaching time for your children and everyone knows kids love object lessons! I object to the idea that this is a "pagan ritual". First of all, I don't think that it Judaism could be defined as a pagan religion. It may not be true but it is not "pagan". And second, didn't Paul speak about these things when he said to not "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths".


 

I agree with you on the "pagan" part. The Old Covenant rituals served their purpose and are done away with, but they weren't "pagan." On the Colossians issue, it seems that those Paul was writing to were not celebrating the feast days. He never gives an argument for why a brother would keep them, right (other than it would cause a brother to sin or cause unnecessary offense to not do so)?

Now, back to reclassifying books on the Jewish feast days from Dewey Decimal to Library of Congress (seriously, that is what I doing right now at the library!)


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## toddpedlar

Unashamed 116 said:


> My family used to do it and I would like to do it in the future with my family. I think it can be a great teaching time for your children and everyone knows kids love object lessons! I object to the idea that this is a "pagan ritual". First of all, I don't think that it Judaism could be defined as a pagan religion. It may not be true but it is not "pagan". And second, didn't Paul speak about these things when he said to not "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths".



Bruce has already answered your question about your quotation from 1 Corinthians. 

A question for you regarding the statement of the Passover Seder being a "pagan ritual". How does one participate in the Passover Seder of Christ's day (I presume that is what you'd like to do), when we have little (if any?) knowledge about how the Seder was done in Christ's day? Unless I'm mistaken the ritual practiced today is one upon which heaps and heaps of Rabbinical glosses have been laid, and whose details follow a modern, post-resurrection model? I would submit in humble concern that it is very possible that the modern Seder that is celebrated is quite pagan indeed.


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## toddpedlar

Another thought, along the lines of some things that have been said already. 

Why are such rituals needed for those who walk in the light of Christ? If they aren't "worship", what are they? Nobody I have *ever* spoken to has ever given me any shred of hope that this might be practiced in a way that is NOT "worship". Churches hold special services wherein the Seder is practiced, and it very explicitly IS worship. I would ask you if you think that practicing the Seder, but arguing that what is being done is NOT "worship", is not very like the case of those who like images purporting to represent Christ as part of their worship life, but claim that they are not engaging in "worship" as they use those images in their reflections/meditations. 

So I ask again - are the commanded practices of the Christian church vis a vis worship - the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and Baptism - not sufficiently "helpful" for us, that we have to dig up something from a pre-Christian age to feel "more special"? This is very hard for me to accept - it's like adding incense and candles to turn the sanctuary of the church into a "more special" worship atmosphere, and to bring those elements into worship as a means of symbolizing things like prayers, the sacrifice of worship, the light of the world, etc., so that worshippers feel "more worshipful". Isn't what Christ commanded sufficient? Why must we continually be looking for "deeper personal experiences" through ritual? 

These things mystify me, quite frankly.


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## AThornquist

Our family gathers together around this time of year to cut the throat of a lamb and splash its blood around, but we don't celebrate Passover _per se_.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

toddpedlar said:


> Another thought, along the lines of some things that have been said already.
> 
> Why are such rituals needed for those who walk in the light of Christ? If they aren't "worship", what are they? Nobody I have *ever* spoken to has ever given me any shred of hope that this might be practiced in a way that is NOT "worship". Churches hold special services wherein the Seder is practiced, and it very explicitly IS worship. I would ask you if you think that practicing the Seder, but arguing that what is being done is NOT "worship", is not very like the case of those who like images purporting to represent Christ as part of their worship life, but claim that they are not engaging in "worship" as they use those images in their reflections/meditations.
> 
> So I ask again - are the commanded practices of the Christian church vis a vis worship - the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and Baptism - not sufficiently "helpful" for us, that we have to dig up something from a pre-Christian age to feel "more special"? This is very hard for me to accept - it's like adding incense and candles to turn the sanctuary of the church into a "more special" worship atmosphere, and to bring those elements into worship as a means of symbolizing things like prayers, the sacrifice of worship, the light of the world, etc., so that worshippers feel "more worshipful". Isn't what Christ commanded sufficient? Why must we continually be looking for "deeper personal experiences" through ritual?
> 
> These things mystify me, quite frankly.


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## KMK

AThornquist said:


> Our family gathers together around this time of year to cut the throat of a lamb and splash its blood around, but we don't celebrate Passover _per se_.


 
Awesome! Are Exclusive Hyssopists? or do you allow for non-inspired plants?


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## AThornquist

KMK said:


> Awesome! Are Exclusive Hyssopists? or do you allow for non-inspired plants?



 However our spirits lead (which we brew ourselves).


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## Curt

I have (in long past past) participated in such Dispensational rituals. I have repented.


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## Contra_Mundum

Unashamed 116 said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...is the practice consistent with the prescribed manner of considering these things as revealed in Scripture?
> 
> 
> 
> So, if I am reading you correctly, which I may not be, then anything that reminds of of some "worship service" but is not "true worship" is off limits. Is that correct?
Click to expand...


I think such considerations require, at best, extreme care. When we obey our innate religious impulse, it needs to be governed against abuse and misuse by ourselves and by others. The Bible gives us *words* to ponder, and warns us repeatedly of the danger of images. We were created to grow in grace by means of the Word; and I'm asking if anything in that Word encourages us to resume abrogated ritual, even for instructional help in holy matters?


We should all be aware that, irrespective of the situation (formal public worship or informal private worship), _still_ God may not be worshiped in any way forbidden in his Word. A person who rejects idols as incompatible with public worship, for example, is not free to post a (alleged) picture of Jesus in his prayer closet, "because it helps me focus religiously, and I'm not forcing someone else into a conscience-stricken situation."

If we read about the old Jewish Passover, we _should be_ put in mind of the holy things that ritual represented. In this case the means God has instituted, specifically his Word and the connections the text makes to the full revelation of Jesus Christ, are being used for the purpose, and in the manner, which God intended.

I dare not say: that no educational, visual or hands-on representation of the Bible's own presentation is ever allowable. I think a blanket denunciation might be taking things a bit far. However, since I wouldn't advise anyone making such a presentation perform an actual blood-letting sacrifice, I think there are reasonable limits that should observed. In essence, I would advocate something much less "ambitious" than an attempted re-creation of a Passover.

The actual ceremonies described in the Bible, associated with the Passover, are actually quite minimalist. There's more ritual involved in the Passover than in a proper, modest Communion-meal; but also, much less is prescribed than would make much of a stage-play. And even sticking closely to the text, we can hardly expect to replicate the actual conduct of true participants "on the ground." So much of what we would be doing would be "supposed," and inevitably artificial.

And that last bit is what is most disadvantageous to us. We assume that what we _see_ is the truth, when a great deal of it couldn't possibly be so. Furthermore, we are natural "ritualists," and tend toward elaboration, and the fashioning of new rituals, and ascription of new "spiritual" meanings. The latter problem is evident in the ritualized "seder," with its countless spiritualized traditions (not found in the text), that have been further re-interpreted by Christians.

An illustration may help here. A number of years ago I spent some time involved in events that were later rendered cinematically. I have promised myself never to watch the movie. Why? Because, if I were to do so, immediately I would begin to have difficulty distinguishing between my memory and Hollywood's "memory." This is because we instinctively merge new thoughts into the pool of our memories. So, it would be increasingly difficult to separate things I know I remember, from things planted in my head by the artificial recreation (and manipulation) of made-for-viewing reminisces.

Obviously, not every sort of memory or knowledge deserves that sort of "protection." Only what a person cares about. My personal-experience memory preservation is an individual choice. However, the protection of our mind as much as possible in religion is not simply an individual preference, but is itself a religious duty. I suggest that the risks are quite high for us to idealize our limited attempt at play-acting, deciding after the fact that "we really get it now!" when in reality, we may have filled our heads with a tremendous amount of new, false understanding.

I can see some possible advantage to ordinary folk benefiting from watching OT ritual-reenactment in strictly controlled theatre, although I think there are also serious drawbacks. In general, I think the idea of getting costumed up, and making-believe one is an ancient Israelite, brings our faith dangerously close to circus. Again, such players can easily walk away thinking they have attained "deep" new insight, when in fact they have been inoculated against further development of insight. Such is the nature of visual media, compared to "word" media.


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## Hebrew Student

Hey Everyone!

I would echo much of what pastor Buchanan has said. However, I have a unique perspective on this since I am about ready to write a paper on Hebrew ritual in its near eastern context.

I don't think there would be much of a problem if we could do the research to recreate what the passover meal looked like in the apostolic days. I don't think there is any question that an entire meal was served, but exactly what was involved has not been documented in detail to the best of my knowledge. The problem, of course, is also calling it a "Passover" meal, as it appears that this meal was performed much more often then simply once a year. Also, many of the modern Passover Seders [even the Messianic ones!] partake of later Rabbinic tradition as well as some Biblical tradition, and that throws a whole new light on the interpretive framework of the Passover meal itself.

However, my concern is much more for the heart of the ritual than for the ritual itself. We had a Hebrew grammarian named Anson Rainey come and give a lecture here at Trinity, and one of his lectures was on the order of sacrifice in Leviticus. His concern was for the heart issues that the sacrifices address. For example, the whole burnt offerings were meant to represent a person who was totally and completely dedicated to God. In fact, one can see this in the teachings of Jesus where he tells his followers to be reconciled with their brother before they offer the sacrifice.

It is the same thing with passover. The point of passover is not simply to remember the freedom from slavery in Egypt, although that is indeed present. The point is to remember our freedom from the slavery of sin as well. The problem that I have with a lot of these Passover presentations is that it does not address this issue of the heart. We should have a heart that remembers and gives thanks to God, not just for the salvation of our forefathers from Egypt, but for our own deliverance from sin and death which is given to us in the death of Jesus Christ. That is why leaving out the communion celebration is so disastrous.

During his lecture, Professor Rainey was asked about the people in Israel who want to rebuild the temple. His response was that he preferred that people recapture the heart of what the sacrifices meant, rather than re-instituting the sacrifices themselves. This is also why I am concerned about this video someone told me about:

[video=youtube;Q8_lisWqjpk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8_lisWqjpk&feature=player_embedded[/video]

During that whole program, the political importance of helping our political friend Israel was confused with the blessings that come from being the people of God. In fact, you have two professing Christians on this program with two Jews, all talking about some Biblical mandate to protect the political nation of Israel. That is *not* the point of "Israel" in the Hebrew Bible. The position as the apple of God's eye, and those whom God would protect to the end depended upon the state of their heart. The fact of the matter is, God destroyed Israel himself. Does that mean that his wrath was kindled against himself? No, obedience and a heart that loves God was always required in order for Israel to be God's people [Genesis 12:1-3, 17:1-2, Exodus 19:5-6, Deuteronomy 10:16, etc.]. In fact, God, at one point, told Israel, "You are not my people" [Hosea 1:9]. To simply talk of a geopolitical entity over in the middle east run by people who believe that Jesus the messiah was a false prophet fails to recognizes the connection between the people of God and the state of the heart. Worst of all, to do it with two Jews, and never call them to repentance so that they truly are the people of God was simply disastrous.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible. The sacrifices and Passover were heart issues as found in the Hebrew Bible. To not realize that, and focus upon the actions of the ritual is to totally miss the point of the ritual itself.

God Bless,
Adam


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## seajayrice

OK, we will scrap the Seder study, keep the rack of lamb and carry on with the Veggie Tales Easter Egg hunt.


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## Peairtach

*Adam*


> Also, many of the modern Passover Seders [even the Messianic ones!] partake of later Rabbinic tradition as well as some Biblical tradition, and that throws a whole new light on the interpretive framework of the Passover meal itself.



Did the Jews of the first century use crackers? Were crackers what the Lord meant by unleavened bread?

*Adam*


> The problem that I have with a lot of these Passover presentations is that it does not address this issue of the heart. We should have a heart that remembers and gives thanks to God, not just for the salvation of our forefathers from Egypt, but for our own deliverance from sin and death which is given to us in the death of Jesus Christ.



Possibly a well-structured sermon or presentation would be more spiritually helpful to Christians than re-enacting a Passover itself(?) 

Christians need to get the meat out of the meaning of these Jewish Feasts - what they meant for the Jews and they mean for us as mature Israel - otherwise we might be missing out on some important teaching - but we don't want to load ourselves with childhood ceremonies and obscure Christ with shadows.



> Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible.



Well this is the usual simplistic view of ethnic Israel that is associated with Dispensationalism.


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## Curt

Hebrew Student said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible. The sacrifices and Passover were heart issues as found in the Hebrew Bible. To not realize that, and focus upon the actions of the ritual is to totally miss the point of the ritual itself



Israel, as currently constituted, is a necessary ally, but not necessarily a friend.
This has nothing to do with prophetic Israel. It's a geopolitical reality.


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## Edward

This thread reminds me that I need to head down to the Jewish area of Dallas and pick up some 'Kosher for Passover' Coca-Cola.


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## Hebrew Student

Richard Tallach,

I am not sure what you mean about the crackers.

Other than being uncertain about what you mean there, I would agree with everything you said. I was thinking more along the lines of the celebration of the Lord's Supper. Communion was an entire meal in the apostolic era. What I was saying is that it seems to me that we need to understand the heart of Communion/Passover, rather than try to reconstruct the history of Communion exactly as it was done in the apostolic era. I would rather see people come to see the significance of, not just the freedom that God gave our ancestors in Egypt, but the freedom that Christ has given us in salvation which completes and fills the meaning of Communion. Too many people want to change the ritual of communion when it is not about the ritual; it is about the heart that the ritual indicates.

The reason I say this is because Passover and Communion are developed in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament in a way that is rich in meaning. I wrote my post out of concern for the reductionisms that I see in Christianity with regards to how we are to understand Hebrew and Christian ritual. There is a richness in meaning in them, and, rather than going back to the specific practices, it is more important that we have a heart that is indicated by what the text of scripture teaches. Yes, the best place for this to be done is from the pulpit.

God Bless,
Adam


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## KMK

Edward said:


> This thread reminds me that I need to head down to the Jewish area of Dallas and pick up some 'Kosher for Passover' Coca-Cola.


 
Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.


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## Edward

KMK said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.



I grew up in Atlanta. So real Coke with sugar is better than the case or two of Throwback Pepsi that I have in the garage.


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## kodos

Edward said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in Atlanta. So real Coke with sugar is better than the case or two of Throwback Pepsi that I have in the garage.
Click to expand...

 
If you have a Costco membership, you can buy Real Coke with Sugar all year round. Imported from Mexico, land of the free (at least when it comes to sugar based beverages).


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## Peairtach

> I am not sure what you mean about the crackers.



I just meant, Was unleavened bread originally matzo or is this just another example of another extreme Jewish ruling?



> The reason I say this is because Passover and Communion are developed in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament in a way that is rich in meaning. I wrote my post out of concern for the reductionisms that I see in Christianity with regards to how we are to understand Hebrew and Christian ritual. There is a richness in meaning in them, and, rather than going back to the specific practices, it is more important that we have a heart that is indicated by what the text of scripture teaches. Yes, the best place for this to be done is from the pulpit.



Well the better we understand the Passover, the better we'll understand Christ's work and the Lord's Supper, and vice versa.

I agree with what your saying. I don't think a demonstration of the Passover is more helpful than a sermon or a sermon with handouts.


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## Edward

kodos said:


> If you have a Costco membership, you can buy Real Coke with Sugar all year round. Imported from Mexico,



You can get that in the local Mexican supermarkets here. But it runs about the same as the bottles of Dublin Dr Pepper - about $1 for a single serve bottle. The Kosher for Passover Coke comes in 2 liter bottles priced the same as the diet and HFCS products.


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