# Friendships with pagans



## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

99% of the time I can't stand non-Christians and they can't stand me. I'm fine with that actually. However, once in a while I meet a non-believer who is nicer, more selfless, and caring than any Christian I've ever known. I knew one at my former work place and now I've met and come to know one where I currently work. I have come to trust these two individuals greatly, more so than most Christians I know because they've actually proven themselves to me more often.

Thoughts on this?


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## caddy (Feb 19, 2007)

How will we make believers out of the Pagan if we are not friendly to them?

It is probable that the individual of which you speak is one of those "Christians" chosen before the foundation of the world, God just hasn't convinced Him just yet.

Just a thought....


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 19, 2007)

Interesting. I find it far easier, in my profession, to become friends with Pagans due to the quality of people I work with.

- They work hard.
- They have integrity and will not tolerate those who lack it.
- They research things thoroughly to make sure they have proper information.
- They look to others' interests before their own.
- They don't use flattering speech but make sure the right thing is done.
- They despise political double-speak.
- They make sure a person is fully qualified before they're put in a position of leadership where others can be harmed by their ill preparedness or lack of leadership skills.
- They remove people from leadership when they fail morally.

In short, they are Marines.

I don't want to sound Oo-rah and blindly parochial about my service but I work around a quality group of people. They are not perfect, but I'll be frank with you, I get pretty impatient with Christians who are called to exhibit all of those character traits above and usually lack all of them. What frustrates me is that many Churches don't even try to instill these qualities into Christian men and women.

I actually have to go out of my way not to make all my friends Marines because I much more naturally get along with them. They don't have skin the thickness of tissue paper when you point out errors they need to correct. There are a number that are pretty good parents and invest a lot of time in their kids. They shame the lazy Christians I worship with in many cases.

But they're, by and large, not Christians (though a higher percentage than the American population are Christian) and so I purposefully develop friendships with the Church body I attend. The friendships actually rub against the grain of what I'm attracted to (in some cases) but I stir up affection for them. It usually takes me about a year and a half to actually "like" some of them. It was actually just this past Sunday as I was greeting some of them at Church that I "felt" warm toward some people.

As is the nature of my profession, I'll be out of here in another year and a half and I'll be crying that I'm leaving close friends.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

Rich

You've made me feel like I should have been a Marine! (lol)


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

caddy said:


> How will we make believers out of the Pagan if we are not friendly to them?
> 
> It is probable that the individual of which you speak is one of those "Christians" chosen before the foundation of the world, God just hasn't convinced Him just yet.
> 
> Just a thought....



I pray this is true of both of my friends. One is agnostic, the other is completely anti-religious. Having been raised Roman Catholic she shudders at the mention of God, etc.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 19, 2007)

I have a number of people at work that are non-Christian. (About half).

Some are outwardly a-moral. Others hide it well.

Many of them, though, are dilligent, can carry on work well, and enjoy talking with me to a limited extent.

I find that I personally need to talk "more" with them, though the time I do spend is often work related.

We have made it a point to take them out to lunch, two at a time, and "just have lunch" together.

They are not outwardly disrespectful, but conversations can become interesting.

And, interestingly, most of them don't mind too much about talking about "good things", or even moral things in a helpful light.

I think we should be "salt and light" to them, and that is not always just telling them to "repent or perish." 

If they don't trust me, often they won't ever "go" to the Christian stuff, or ask the hard questions.


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## caddy (Feb 19, 2007)

We both know that is nothing for God now don't we Adam!

Continue to be Christ to them, pray for them daily, dig in. This could take years!

God is Good...All the time...and all the time: God is Good!

Praying for you and them Brother !  



houseparent said:


> I pray this is true of both of my friends. One is agnostic, the other is completely anti-religious. Having been raised Roman Catholic she shudders at the mention of God, etc.


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## KMK (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree with all of these thoughts. 

My wife and I are often comiserating how much nicer and more pleasant unbelievers often are. Then I am reminded of this scripture:

1Co 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 19, 2007)

It depends on the rebellion of the pagan (and of course grace) as to how close you can get to the person, when I worked at Late Night people loved me, all of them were nominal Papists, Jews, buddhists and atheists but they loved me.

I had a homosexual roommate who hated me before I even gave him reason because I was a Christian and went to Church (and he was a Baylor student going to a supposedly Christian University).

I never discussed homosexuality unless he brought it up and he always did so in a venomous and asinine tone.

I didn't like him and truthfully the evalgelistic opportunity wasn't there visibly and I did not enjoy his company because of his shameless rebellion and lack of manners.

Late Night knew I was Presbyterian, the lone protestant on staff.

On one occasion I actually was wearing an RUF T-Shirt at work that had a Martin Luther quote on the back and a picture of him on the front wearing a shirt that said "College" (Like John Beluschi from Animal House).

People thought the shirt was great and inspired lots of conversation, and since they trusted me I was not disregarded as an evangelical quack from Texas living in Manhattan.

One Catholic writer for the show was staring at me in the elevator with intrigue and then asked "Is that Thomas Moore?"
"No sir, Martin luther actually" was my reply.
His eyes lit up as the doors opened and he quipped have serious but half teasing, "Ah, Martin Luther...the opposite of Thomas Moore."
And so it was understood we were different and we got along just the same and occasionaly dove into theological questions.

No one ever went to church with me but I think I was permitted the opportunity to get "Evenagelical Right Wing" out of their heads when protestant Christianity was the discussion.


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## Herald (Feb 19, 2007)

I have friendships with unbelievers, but there is a limit to how far these friendships can go because Christ is not the center of the relationship from both sides.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 19, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I have friendships with unbelievers, but there is a limit to how far these friendships can go because Christ is not the center of the relationship from both sides.


Bingo, these friendships tend to be superficial in many levels, fun, kind, generous people who may share much of your political or nationalistic views but who do not know they have lived their life in rebellion to God and are in need of Christ.

Naturally your worldview will be nuanced and deliberated internally and externally in a different manner than they ponder their own.


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## Ivan (Feb 19, 2007)

Speaking of Marines....PBS is going to have a special on this august group in a few days. I hope to see it.

I like the promo. A couple things I remember being said: 1) Marines run TO the gunfire, and 2) You do not want the Marines knocking on your door.

I had a friend, whom I have lost touch with for some time now, who was a Marine and a believer. Last I heard he was working for the government in Florida. 

Wish I could contact him. Any ideas, Rich?

He was cool.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

Well, I'll take this a step further. So far in my life it's been my experience that Christian supervisors (at work) are jerks, more times than not while pagan supervisors are much nicer, kinder, and willing to supervise in a "teaching" manner instead of a "I am so much better than you" manner. Both of the people I refrence in my first post are or have been supervisors of mine. The two most vocal about their faith supervisors I've ever had are also two of the biggest jerks I've ever known and definately two of the most arrogant/full of themselves supervisors I've ever had!


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 19, 2007)

If you know his last name and he is retired then he can probably be found. You'd also be surprised who you can find if you use Yahoo People Search.

I don't want this to turn into a pep rally for Marines. I obviously like being one and am honored to be among some very fine men.

I brought it up as an example of the fact that Christians ought to be the kind of people that folks say: Wow, that guy is really squared away.

They may not be that type of person initially but the Church should have a culture that transforms men and women into the type of people that should make people take notice.

The Marines provide a good example of that because folks can almost always tell you're a Marine. The Officer Corps in the Marine Corps also does something to you that I can't describe. People always know I'm an Officer. I don't go out of my way to tell them. Other Marines can tell, somehow, by the way I just carry myself. I was in the Burger King playland with my kids talking to a young kid in there that was really friendly. His father came in and we started talking. He told me he saw me, through the glass, talking to his son and told his wife: "He's an Officer."

Do you know what I'm most happy about though? I actually had a peer once tell me that he knew I was a Christian by the way I acted. That made me feel really good because I often fear that my conduct expresses the exact opposite.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

Marines are a fine example Rich. You all CHANGE because of what you are, most times for the better! This is exactly what is missing with so many believers.


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## KMK (Feb 19, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> They may not be that type of person initially but the Church should have a culture that transforms men and women into the type of people that should make people take notice.



It should, but it so often does not. I think this might be the root of our frustration toward some professing christians. We expect worldly people to act like worldly people, but when someone claims to be a believer but lives like a 'jerk' (to quote houseparent), it grieves the Holy Spirit in us.



SemperFideles said:


> The Marines provide a good example of that because folks can almost always tell you're a Marine.



Not me. I always get you and those Navy guys mixed up.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2007)

Marines like Navy boys, whenever they have to go fight, those fella's always give them a ride! (from "A Few Good Men")



> It should, but it so often does not. I think this might be the root of our frustration toward some professing christians. We expect worldly people to act like worldly people, but when someone claims to be a believer but lives like a 'jerk' (to quote houseparent), it grieves the Holy Spirit in us.



Am I wrong to expect the Christians in my life to act better than the pagans in my life? I am saddened when my nonbelieving friends and co-workers make better (more moral) choices and treat their co-workers with more respect than those who claim Christ.


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## Ivan (Feb 19, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> If you know his last name and he is retired then he can probably be found. You'd also be surprised who you can find if you use Yahoo People Search.



You know, Rich, I've tried this before and was unsuccessful. I tried it just know and he is there! At least I think it's him. I'll give him a call and see.

As far as a Marine pep rally....well, I'm just stating the facts.


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 19, 2007)

KMK said:


> Not me. I always get you and those Navy guys mixed up.


Yeah, when they serve with us especially, they have the same uniforms.

As I told a new civilian working with us: The Navy folk are the heavyset ones.

I really love my Navy guys and not just because they give us a ride. I have profound respect for the Corpsmen and Doctors and other Navy people that serve with us. _Flags of our Fathers_ - if you haven't seen it, watch it. Man those Corpsmen are just _unreal_.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 19, 2007)

The two people I had the best conversations with when I was stationed aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln were both pagans. My friend Zeb was a devout Sunni Muslim and the night corpsman I spoke with quite a bit practiced Neopagan Witchcraft. I found they respected me more when I didn't compromise my beliefs while disscusing an issue. I did the best I could to give them the truth in the love of Christ.


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## KMK (Feb 19, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Am I wrong to expect the Christians in my life to act better than the pagans in my life? I am saddened when my nonbelieving friends and co-workers make better (more moral) choices and treat their co-workers with more respect than those who claim Christ.



I think it depends on what you mean by 'expect'. I think we are obligated to hold Christians to a certain behavior. (with charity and humility and scripture, of course) But I don't think there is anything wrong with using your senses to discern good and evil in a person. (Heb 5) A person who makes bad decisions is a person who makes bad decisions. A person who acts like a 'jerk' is a 'jerk'. We are commanded to love them still but we don't have to set ourselves up for disappointment. Does any of that make sense? 

If our brothers and sisters in the Lord were easy to get along with why would Paul need to say in Eph 4:3, "*Endeavoring *to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

I just realized I sound a little preachy.  I don't mean to be. These are simply things that I have to continually remind myself about because I suffer from the same frustrations as you. (I work in the CA public school system for cryin' out loud!)


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## bowhunter1961 (Feb 20, 2007)

when i was a parachute rigger, my fisrt duty station was nas meridian, ms i was assigned to the "rigger shop" right away due to personel shortage. a shop Pr, maintains everything the pilot wears, G-suits, harnesses and survival vest.........everything in the vest is to be tied in with 30" of cord, tied with a bowline knot....i started tying in those little poket gideon bibles, when they went through their vis. inspections of their vest, id hear a lot of "what the ........" (funny how the Word will shut ppl up) but, no one complained to the point of telling me to take them out, it also show me who the believers where, and they thanked me for it. but , when my boss figured out it was me, had me go TAD to the flight line, and tool room for almost a year, he didnt want me in the shop, because i was a "Jesus freak".....anyway, ....two months before he left to go to a new duty station, he came to kno the Lord.which is always kool.
but working with pagans vs. redeemed pagans, i think its just where we all are in our sanctification , some are just starting out, some dont hardly kno, and some should kno better. and that grates on our pride.


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## Theoretical (Feb 20, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> As sad as this sounds, I have had few falling outs with people...until I got into the ministry.
> 
> *Watch out when sinners think that they have the Holy Spirit's backing. *
> 
> ...


I can relate. I've been on the harsh, judging end myself in years past, though the Lord has both softened and hardened me. He has softened my heart and specifically discomfort towards nonbelievers, while he has made me substantially more discerning of those Christians and claim-to-be- Christians around me. I do have a vastly more charitable, understanding attitude than I used to possess, so I thank God for that fact.

I've been able to be bold and consistent in my faith, while not being a jerk, especialy around non-Christians a lot more of the last several months.


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## KMK (Feb 20, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> I can relate. I've been on the harsh, judging end myself in years past, though the Lord has both softened and hardened me. He has softened my heart and specifically discomfort towards nonbelievers, while he has made me substantially more discerning of those Christians and claim-to-be- Christians around me. I do have a vastly more charitable, understanding attitude than I used to possess, so I thank God for that fact.
> 
> I've been able to be bold and consistent in my faith, while not being a jerk, especialy around non-Christians a lot more of the last several months.



These are the kinds of fruit that the HS works in men whom He is preparing for ministry. Hmmm.


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## KMK (Feb 20, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> I took leave, grew a beard and entered a Bible College. I was told the first day that I could not enter their school with a beard and that I needed to shave.



That would come very close to sending me over the edge. It has not happened to me yet but I don't know what I would say if people told me that my Pro 20:29 beard was somehow unchristian.


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## Chris (Feb 20, 2007)

> There IS an attitude of judging folks, especially among the Fundy and Reformed types.



The worst I've ever been treated by anyone within a church has been - on numerous ocassions - by a southern baptist who found out that I was a Calvinist. 


As for pagans, the friendliest people I've ever met have been buddhists and muslims.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 20, 2007)

One thing that keeps coming into my mind as I read this thread: Should we not be in fellowship primarily with Christians and see time with pagans as a time to witness (but to be kept to a certain amount of time/a certain depth and no more)? It is easy enough for us to fall into the slippery places when we spend so much time "of the world" by association as it were, even as we live as Christians. It also worries me that this time we are spending with badly-behaving Christians is not seen as a rejeuvenating time, a time for communion with the saints. It comes up as a problem within my own life often enough. But what's the root of the problem here? We should see time with other believers as a blessing and a privilege. When it's not, something needs to be corrected.

I know that we don't always agree on these threads. I know that I myself am often inflammatory towards others, that I don't always play well with others, and that I step beyond the bounds of proper decorum from time to time. But I *LOVE* every minute I spend on the PB precisely because I am in the fellowship of believers and it is something I crave. I love that a Brother or Sister in Christ will Scripturally admonish me, will show me why/where my actions or opinions are out of line with the Word, and will take the time to do it as a believer looking out for other believers, hard as it is to do sometimes. My point is, good time and bad on the PB is still time in fellowship with believers and is a blessing either way.

One last thing: Adam, when you are talking with those Christian supervisors, if they are way out of bounds, can you not ask for a simple "chapter and verse" backup of thier actions? Is that too over the top for them? I'm not talking about a difference of opinion, but a case in which they are obviously beyond the pale or unnecessarily harsh in their speech or behavior.


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## KMK (Feb 20, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> One thing that keeps coming into my mind as I read this thread: Should we not be in fellowship primarily with Christians and see time with pagans as a time to witness (but to be kept to a certain amount of time/a certain depth and no more)? It is easy enough for us to fall into the slippery places when we spend so much time "of the world" by association as it were, even as we live as Christians.



We must always guard against slipping but God can bless us with the friendship of unbelievers. (Not fellowship, but friendship) And not just for the purpose of witnessing but also for blessing.

1Co 3:21-23 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

God can bless, if it is His good pleasure, with unbelieving friends and no doubt the witnessing will come but so will blessing.

BTW, it is nice fellowshipping with you, dear brother.


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## Kevin (Feb 21, 2007)

caddy said:


> How will we make believers out of the Pagan if we are not friendly to them?
> 
> It is probable that the individual of which you speak is one of those "Christians" chosen before the foundation of the world, God just hasn't convinced Him just yet.
> 
> Just a thought....


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 21, 2007)

> One last thing: Adam, when you are talking with those Christian supervisors, if they are way out of bounds, can you not ask for a simple "chapter and verse" backup of thier actions? Is that too over the top for them? I'm not talking about a difference of opinion, but a case in which they are obviously beyond the pale or unnecessarily harsh in their speech or behavior.



I did that frequently with one of them in the past and he became mean and vindictive. We also used to e-mail back and forth regarding our duty to Christ in our roles as friends, believers, and co-workers in seperate roles. One day he snapped (out of the blue) and told me he was "sick of my epistles".

As such, I am very hesitant to try this with my current supervisor. The few (once or twice) times that I've even slightly questioned him he's gotten very angry and insulted.


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## calgal (Feb 21, 2007)

Honestly I have had better experiences with Pagans: they do tend to be more consistent than fundies.  Fundies and some Reformed folks tend to forget that there is NO perfect church this side of Glory and that we are all sinners but for the grace of God. My opinion is that we can and should have friendship with pagans but NEVER fellowship. Lastly, looking down upon the pagans while denying our sinfulness is hypocritical and a terrible witness. I have been guilty of such in the past. Love the sinner and hate the sin is hard to do in my opinion.


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 21, 2007)

calgal said:


> Honestly I have had better experiences with Pagans: they do tend to be more consistent than fundies.  Fundies and some Reformed folks tend to forget that there is NO perfect church this side of Glory and that we are all sinners but for the grace of God. My opinion is that we can and should have friendship with pagans but NEVER fellowship. Lastly, looking down upon the pagans while denying our sinfulness is hypocritical and a terrible witness. I have been guilty of such in the past. Love the sinner and hate the sin is hard to do in my opinion.


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