# Federal Visionists are hilarious



## DaveJes1979 (Sep 15, 2006)

Watch as James Jordan proves Dr. Clark right in the comments section of this blog article:
http://anikisan.blogs.com/the_craw/2006/09/what_is_going_o.html

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September 14, 2006
What is Going On?

The recent issue of Tabletalk has an article in it called "The History of Covenant Theology" by Dr. R. Scott Clark out of Westminster Seminary, CA (not WTS). On page 11 of the article Clark writes: 

"Other revisions or rejections of orthodox covenant theology include the so-called Federal Vision movement that not only rejects the covenant of redemption; it rejects the distiniction between law and gospel and the distinction between the covenants of works and grace..."

What? As someone who has read much FV material (and who has been labeled an FVer for doing so) I have to ask, "What? Who? Where?!?" I have not read anyone...anyone in FV circles who denies the covenant of redemption and I know many of these men personally. This is an outrageous claim. If Dr. Clark wants to say this is true, in his typical manner, by drawing out endless implications, I think that is extremely petty and uncharitable. He should know that with just a few degrees of separation, anyone's position can be portrayed as heterodox. For example, he seems to be enamored with pagan Hittite pact models. Does that mean Dr. Clark denies the Christian faith and believes in foreign gods? After all we know where this kind of stuff leads! 

Has Reformedom gone mad? Is this how we are supposed to treat our Christian brethren? I thought we were supposed to be people of the the Truth who speak the truth even when it hurts us (and doesn't give us ammo for our theological spin). This is bad, bad stuff. See the Bonemans comments on the same here.

September 14, 2006 | Permalink 
Comments
Oh, I don't know. As I understand it, the so-called "covenant of redemption" is some deal cut between the Father and the Son to save the human race. I don't see any Biblical evidence for any such pact. The Three Persons exist eternally in covenant with one another, but the notion that two of them (or all three) cut some new deal to save the human face after the fall of Adam, or in view of the fall of Adam, is without Biblical support, in my opinion. If Mr. Clark wants this notion to be the definition of "Reformed Orthodoxy," then I'm happy not to be in his camp. Why should any Vantillian fall on his sword for such odd notions?

Posted by: James Jordan | September 14, 2006 at 03:46 PM 

OK Jim, now I've read 1!

Pax

Posted by: Garrett | September 14, 2006 at 03:49 PM


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## turmeric (Sep 15, 2006)

...before the foundation of the world...


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## KenPierce (Sep 16, 2006)

Frankly, I am glad Jordan tipped his hand. He even uses the word deal-cutting derisively --overlooking the fact that covenants were always "cut."

Where was the covenant of grace/redemption cut? ON the cross. Mark my words --a denial of substitutionary atonement is coming from some quarter of the FV sometime in the future. Some of them have already undercut it by denying a pactum salutis.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 16, 2006)

Hi Ken,

Welcome!

You're exactly right. The trajectories of this movement are interesting to track. Until recently, I thought that Moscow was heading to Constantinople. Who knows now? 

Rich Lusk has said (in print) that we don't need anything imputed to us. That's only shades away from denying substitution. 

Their use of "relational" and "familial" categories as a lever by which to move the legal/forensic certainly supports your suggestion.

rsc



> _Originally posted by KenPierce_
> Frankly, I am glad Jordan tipped his hand. He even uses the word deal-cutting derisively --overlooking the fact that covenants were always "cut."
> 
> Where was the covenant of grace/redemption cut? ON the cross. Mark my words --a denial of substitutionary atonement is coming from some quarter of the FV sometime in the future. Some of them have already undercut it by denying a pactum salutis.


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