# Executive Pastor?



## ww

I'm seeing this title pop up more and more in PCA and other larger Reformed Churches. What is it and What does he do?


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## Edward

While an imperfect analogy, the position would likely be one of chief operating officer.


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## Rangerus

We have an executive pastor at our church. His primary function is to watch over the senior pastor.


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## DMcFadden

If COO is too corporate for you, in many cases, glorified "business manager" captures it.


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## Herald

DMcFadden said:


> If COO is too corporate for you, in many cases, glorified "business manager" captures it.



So who exactly is this "business manager" shepherding?


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## Ivan

Minister of Administration is another term I've heard used.


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## Herald

Ivan said:


> Minister of Administration is another term I've heard used.



Minister of Administration = MA

"Hey, Ma! Can you print those bulletins?"


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## DMcFadden

BIG churches tend to have Executive Pastors acting as the COO of the organizational stuff. They handle managing the office staff, associate pastors, HR issues, deal with vendors and contractors, direct the custodial staff, take care of building management issues, sometimes act as staff liaison to the ruling board, and generally handle the operations function in a multi-million dollar corporation. This frees up the senior pastor to work on his sermons, write books, speak around the country, sit for radio interviews, and spend time in his vacation home far away from congregation members.

The phenomenon is almost universally prevalent in "seeker sensitive" congregations due to their deeply ingrained culture of adopting business and marketing models for doing church. It is relatively less common in Reformed circles due to the fact that requiring the memorization of Calvin's Institutes, thorough rote knowledge of the BCO and various Confessions and Catechisms, and requiring the identification and recitation of the dozens of acronyms for all of the micro-Presbyterian denominations . . . well, it tends to limit congregational size and necessity for an Executive Pastor. That is why they are most often found in PCA congregations, particularly those where the pastors have been Willowcreekified or Saddlebacked into a Purpose Driven posture.

Generally you can determine the statistical probability of a church having an Executive Pastor based on whether the senior pastor has more books by Turretin or George Barna in his personal library. Turretin is a dead giveaway that this is NOT a place where you will find an Executive Pastor. The presence of copies of books by Kaspar Olevianus or Zacharius Ursinus (in the original) increases that probabilistic likelihood to a near certainty. Ten books published by Jossey-Bass would generally point to a strong correlation with having an Executive Pastor; more than that and this IS the office of the Executive Pastor.

One way to determine whether a church is likely to have an Executive Pastor is to engage the pastor in casual conversation. Ask him to explain the extra calvinisticum. If he responds by drawing intersecting circles representing the trinity and differentiating his view from Luther's communicatio idiomatum, you may safely conclude that he will *not* have an Executive Pastor. If, on the other hand, he draws three circles and begins to explain the crystalline concept that flows from deep understanding about the intersection of the following three circles: 1. What you can be the best in the world at (and, equally important, what you cannot be the best in the world at), 2. What drives your economic engine, and 3. What you are deeply passionate about, mentions Jim Collins, or the "hedgehog principle," then you may pretty certainly assume that he *will* have an Executive Pastor.


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## Knoxienne

I'll just have a regular pastor, please.


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## KMK

DMcFadden said:


> BIG churches tend to have Executive Pastors acting as the COO of the organizational stuff. They handle managing the office staff, associate pastors, HR issues, deal with vendors and contractors, direct the custodial staff, take care of building management issues, sometimes act as staff liaison to the ruling board, and generally handle the operations function in a multi-million dollar corporation. This frees up the senior pastor to work on his sermons, write books, speak around the country, sit for radio interviews, and spend time in his vacation home far away from congregation members.
> 
> The phenomenon is almost universally prevalent in "seeker sensitive" congregations due to their deeply ingrained culture of adopting business and marketing models for doing church. It is relatively less common in Reformed circles due to the fact that requiring the memorization of Calvin's Institutes, thorough rote knowledge of the BCO and various Confessions and Catechisms, and requiring the identification and recitation of the dozens of acronyms for all of the micro-Presbyterian denominations . . . well, it tends to limit congregational size and necessity for an Executive Pastor. That is why they are most often found in PCA congregations, particularly those where the pastors have been Willowcreekified or Saddlebacked into a Purpose Driven posture.
> 
> Generally you can determine the statistical probability of a church having an Executive Pastor based on whether the senior pastor has more books by Turretin or George Barna in his personal library. Turretin is a dead giveaway that this is NOT a place where you will find an Executive Pastor. The presence of copies of books by Kaspar Olevianus or Zacharius Ursinus (in the original) increases that probabilistic likelihood to a near certainty. Ten books published by Jossey-Bass would generally point to a strong correlation with having an Executive Pastor; more than that and this IS the office of the Executive Pastor.
> 
> One way to determine whether a church is likely to have an Executive Pastor is to engage the pastor in casual conversation. Ask him to explain the extra calvinisticum. If he responds by drawing intersecting circles representing the trinity and differentiating his view from Luther's communicatio idiomatum, you may safely conclude that he will *not* have an Executive Pastor. If, on the other hand, he draws three circles and begins to explain the crystalline concept that flows from deep understanding about the intersection of the following three circles: 1. What you can be the best in the world at (and, equally important, what you cannot be the best in the world at), 2. What drives your economic engine, and 3. What you are deeply passionate about, mentions Jim Collins, or the "hedgehog principle," then you may pretty certainly assume that he *will* have an Executive Pastor.





Please stop! You made me spit my breakfast cereal all over my computer screen!


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## LawrenceU

DMcFadden said:


> BIG churches tend to have Executive Pastors acting as the COO of the organizational stuff. They handle managing the office staff, associate pastors, HR issues, deal with vendors and contractors, direct the custodial staff, take care of building management issues, sometimes act as staff liaison to the ruling board, and generally handle the operations function in a multi-million dollar corporation. This frees up the senior pastor to work on his sermons, write books, speak around the country, sit for radio interviews, and spend time in his vacation home far away from congregation members.
> 
> The phenomenon is almost universally prevalent in "seeker sensitive" congregations due to their deeply ingrained culture of adopting business and marketing models for doing church. It is relatively less common in Reformed circles due to the fact that requiring the memorization of Calvin's Institutes, thorough rote knowledge of the BCO and various Confessions and Catechisms, and requiring the identification and recitation of the dozens of acronyms for all of the micro-Presbyterian denominations . . . well, it tends to limit congregational size and necessity for an Executive Pastor. That is why they are most often found in PCA congregations, particularly those where the pastors have been Willowcreekified or Saddlebacked into a Purpose Driven posture.
> 
> Generally you can determine the statistical probability of a church having an Executive Pastor based on whether the senior pastor has more books by Turretin or George Barna in his personal library. Turretin is a dead giveaway that this is NOT a place where you will find an Executive Pastor. The presence of copies of books by Kaspar Olevianus or Zacharius Ursinus (in the original) increases that probabilistic likelihood to a near certainty. Ten books published by Jossey-Bass would generally point to a strong correlation with having an Executive Pastor; more than that and this IS the office of the Executive Pastor.
> 
> One way to determine whether a church is likely to have an Executive Pastor is to engage the pastor in casual conversation. Ask him to explain the extra calvinisticum. If he responds by drawing intersecting circles representing the trinity and differentiating his view from Luther's communicatio idiomatum, you may safely conclude that he will *not* have an Executive Pastor. If, on the other hand, he draws three circles and begins to explain the crystalline concept that flows from deep understanding about the intersection of the following three circles: 1. What you can be the best in the world at (and, equally important, what you cannot be the best in the world at), 2. What drives your economic engine, and 3. What you are deeply passionate about, mentions Jim Collins, or the "hedgehog principle," then you may pretty certainly assume that he *will* have an Executive Pastor.






Alright. Thanks a lot! Everyone in the office just asked my why I was laughing so hard. How on earth will I explain this?


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## ADKing

Rangerus said:


> We have an executive pastor at our church. His primary function is to watch over the senior pastor.



I believe the historic name for this is called _Episcopacy_


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

and


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## Romans922

I really like (meaning don't like) the title: Minister of Worship Arts

This is the name for the music director.


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## ColdSilverMoon

We have a non-ordained "executive director" who fills that role...


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## Ivan

Herald said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Minister of Administration is another term I've heard used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Minister of Administration = MA
> 
> "Hey, Ma! Can you print those bulletins?"
Click to expand...


That's about right!


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Good to know then that places like Tenth Pres and First Pres, Jackson have been WillowCreekified.


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## DMcFadden

21st Century Calvinist said:


> Good to know then that places like Tenth Pres and First Pres, Jackson have been WillowCreekified.



Or . . . just big.

Honestly, polity aside, insofar as form follows function, the larger an organization in America is, the more likely it is to follow conventional wisdom about how organizations should be organized. As you move from a single cell to a complex body, the organic aspects tend to take on more the coloration of the organizational.

That is why a broadly evangelical mega church, super duper SBC congregation, "glory glory" charismatic supersized chruch, and occasional big Presbyterian body will all tend to accord the pastor similar authority and responsibility and functionally operate with a very similar day-to-day style of decision making.

In small single-cell groups, pastors have LOTS of responsibility and little authority; in mega places they have LOTS of authority and few responsibilities (most of them delegated to the Executive Pastor and his staff).


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## Jimmy the Greek

I'm guessing it means he gets the biggest paycheck and gets veto power over all decisions.


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## Romans922

21st Century Calvinist said:


> Good to know then that places like Tenth Pres and First Pres, Jackson have been WillowCreekified.



I know personally that the Executive Minister at First Pres, Jackson, is not one that is similar to the Executive Pastor you refer to here. Be careful about assumptions about ministers of the Gospel. 

The Executive Minister at First Pres is basically an assistant pastor or assistant to the pastor (Ligon Duncan). 

If you go here, you will see that there is a Business Administrator which is different than Executive Minister.


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## DMcFadden

Romans922 said:


> 21st Century Calvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know then that places like Tenth Pres and First Pres, Jackson have been WillowCreekified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know personally that the Executive Minister at First Pres, Jackson, is not one that is similar to the Executive Pastor you refer to here. *Be careful about assumptions about ministers of the Gospel. *
> 
> The Executive Minister at First Pres is basically an assistant pastor or assistant to the pastor (Ligon Duncan).
> 
> If you go here, you will see that there is a Business Administrator which is different than Executive Minister.
Click to expand...


Yikes, Andrew, sorry to have offended you. Yes, the nomenclature has changed during my lifetime.

Executive Pastor used to be Associate Pastor used to be Assistant Pastor.

Associate Pastor for Family Life Ministries used to be Christian Education Pastor used to be Director of Christian Education.

Pastor of Worship Arts used to be Minister of Music used to be Music Director.

Associate Pastor for Student Ministries used to be Pastor to Youth used to be Youth Pastor used to be Youth Director

Lest you think that my flip tongue-in-cheek survey was intended to defame, the congregation I belong to has an Executive Pastor, Family Life Pastor, and Minister of Worship Arts. My own wife serves full time directing Children's Ministries and Christian education at our church. I won't even tell you what HER title is now!!! 

I'm just old enough to find the name change a little too _au courant_ or fashionably chic. Here in CA, we have adopted the new nomenclature even for relatively small congregations which sounds (to my jaded old ears) about as silly as watching a 5 year old dressing up in daddy's suit and tie and carrying an atache case to look "big."

But, language DOES matter. And, frankly, while the names may work in the Willowcreek context or among non-denominational mega churches, there are implications such titles have for our ecclesiology and even our biblical interpretation. I, for one, take a Grudemesque/CBMW/ traditional view of male/female roles. The flip use of "pastor" for females working in a church tends, in my opinion, toward supporting egalitarianism and the assumptions of the culture even in congregations that claim not to believe in such a position. 

So, Andrew, please accept my apology for making fun of a serious issue. I have been ordained for more than three decades and do NOT want to belittle the calling of God nor defame those who shoulder the weight of that calling.


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## Romans922

I agree with the names, and I'm not considered old Dennis. But I hope I am Old School! 

But I guess you have to show a difference when a church has 7 pastors. You know, what specifically does that one do that the other doesn't? 

All I know is that I'm thankful that my church hasn't fallen into any of it. Christ is still and always will be the head of the Church. I'm a Pastor. I'm an elder. We have two other pastors/elders, and two deacons. [I consider personally elders to be pastors/shepherds of the flock as well, but they would probably just say they're elders ].


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## DMcFadden

Andrew, please see my edited piece which responds directly to you at the end. We were evidently posting simultaneously.

BTW, I grant you that in congregations that are larger, it is customary for the senior pastor to delegate to an associate with administrative giftings the more operational issues. In our efforts to ape the nomenclature of the culture, however, we have drifted into the types of titles that are somewhat more business-like. I know of one of our fellowship's churches that runs 3,000 on a weekend. There the Executive Pastor has no theological training and is little more than a manager of the staff (both pastoral and office). In other settings, the Executive Pastor frees the preaching pastor to study and speak. One of our churches has added 350 new members by baptism last year, largely through a recovery outreach. With so many addicted personalities, he is currently doing 25-30 weekly counseling sessions with couples. Pretty hard to get much else done in that kind of beehive of activity. Executive Pastors emerged out of the division of labor needs of larger bodies. I meant no disrespect, Andrew!


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## ADKing

All this raises numerous issues for presbyterian ecclesiology. The very names "assistant pastor" and "senior pastor" imply a gradation in the pastorate that presbyterianism strongly resisted over against episcopacy. Now it has become standard practice in so-called Presbyterian churches. The "senior pastor" organizes and gives direction to his "staff" in an Americanized-corporate fashion that still has strong resemblences to a bishop and his lower curates etc.

The fact that this is not just semantics is demonstrated by the actual division of labor. Where does the Bible sanction a man being made a minister who is not devoting himself to prayer and the ministry of the word (ala Acts 6.4)? The situation in which an "associate/assistant" may be a pastor without regularly preaching the word shows he is not really fulfilling the duty of a biblical pastor.


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## Romans922

You have not offended me, I very much agree with you. I was just defending one of my presbyteries churches.





DMcFadden said:


> Andrew, please see my edited piece which responds directly to you at the end. We were evidently posting simultaneously.
> 
> BTW, I grant you that in congregations that are larger, it is customary for the senior pastor to delegate to an associate with administrative giftings the more operational issues. In our efforts to ape the nomenclature of the culture, however, we have drifted into the types of titles that are somewhat more business-like. I know of one of our fellowship's churches that runs 3,000 on a weekend. There the Executive Pastor has no theological training and is little more than a manager of the staff (both pastoral and office). In other settings, the Executive Pastor frees the preaching pastor to study and speak. One of our churches has added 350 new members by baptism last year, largely through a recovery outreach. With so many addicted personalities, he is currently doing 25-30 weekly counseling sessions with couples. Pretty hard to get much else done in that kind of beehive of activity. Executive Pastors emerged out of the division of labor needs of larger bodies. I meant no disrespect, Andrew!


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## Whitefield

A couple of thoughts re: executive pastors - 

1. in a military unit executive officers are not the senior person
2. Eph. 4:11-12 outline the fundamental role of pastor/teacher ... and equipping the saints can be a valid function of an executive pastor (executive = executes the directives/vision of the one senior, i.e., the senior pastor)


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## 21st Century Calvinist

Romans922 said:


> 21st Century Calvinist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know then that places like Tenth Pres and First Pres, Jackson have been WillowCreekified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know personally that the Executive Minister at First Pres, Jackson, is not one that is similar to the Executive Pastor you refer to here. Be careful about assumptions about ministers of the Gospel.
> 
> The Executive Minister at First Pres is basically an assistant pastor or assistant to the pastor (Ligon Duncan).
> 
> If you go here, you will see that there is a Business Administrator which is different than Executive Minister.
Click to expand...


Take a chill pill and recognize humor, pastor. I am sorry for you if you can't recognize a tongue in cheek post with a tongue in cheek response, so climb down off your high horse. The reason I named these two churches is that I can't imagine anyone here would dispute the commitment to upholding Reformed theology that these two congregations have.


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## JonathanHunt

Handbags at dawn. Play nicely, children!

On a serious point, I think there is a lot to be said for not concocting all these fancy titles and names. I know a very large Reformed Baptist Church in the UK that has a full time elder in charge of technology, internet, music, yada yada, but he is not called 'pastor of technology'. He is just known as a full time elder and he does his job. Likewise there is another full time elder who manages the church staff, does contracts, agreements, and all sorts of things that come into the 'Business Manager' type of spec. I suppose the cry might come back 'well, what does brother x actually do, he doesn't preach much so what is he being paid for' - in which case answers can be given. I wonder, I just wonder, if a tendency to titles and grand sounding roles is something that we should be very wary of indeed. These elders who rule well get the 'double honour' - we don't have to give them fancy titles for that!


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## LawrenceU

What I find disturbing is the use of the name 'pastor' for individuals who are not 'pastoring'. A man who is in charge of the balance sheets and operations is not doing the work of prayer and word. He is working, but not in that area. Would it not be better to entitle him, Executive Director? We are warping the understanding of a biblically defined name. That is dangerous. No woman should ever wear the title. Frankly if a man is doing the above mentioned work, or handling the technology of a congregation's needs, or something else along those lines he is functioning in a more deaconly role.

Names/titles mean things.


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## Whitefield

One person I know who has the title Executive Pastor ... spends most of week running the business of the church (bills, accounts, scheduling building use) ... but ... preaches the Sunday evening service, conducts a weekly Bible study, and visits the hospitals. Now is that enough to be called a pastor? He is not "THE" pastor of the church, but he is involved in pastoring the church, however his main activity is administrative and executive. Where is the threshold, then?


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## ColdSilverMoon

LawrenceU said:


> What I find disturbing is the use of the name 'pastor' for individuals who are not 'pastoring'. A man who is in charge of the balance sheets and operations is not doing the work of prayer and word. He is working, but not in that area. Would it not be better to entitle him, Executive Director? We are warping the understanding of a biblically defined name. That is dangerous. No woman should ever wear the title. Frankly if a man is doing the above mentioned work, or handling the technology of a congregation's needs, or something else along those lines he is functioning in a more deaconly role.
> 
> Names/titles mean things.


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## DMcFadden

Whitefield said:


> One person I know who has the title Executive Pastor ... spends most of week running the business of the church (bills, accounts, scheduling building use) ... but ... preaches the Sunday evening service, conducts a weekly Bible study, and visits the hospitals. Now is that enough to be called a pastor? He is not "THE" pastor of the church, but he is involved in pastoring the church, however his main activity is administrative and executive. Where is the threshold, then?



That is why I described the range of Executive Pastors in my circle of acquaintance: one does ONLY business matters; one is like the friend described in your post; and one is a former preaching pastor who moved into the mainly-administrative role due to a better match with his gifting.

Outside of the local church, there are positions such as mine that require (by job description) an ordained person. I teach and preach weekly (some might suspect weakly too!) but MOST of my job is devoted to administrative and managerial matters. Frankly, my primary gifts are public speaking and the local church was a more comfortable fit for me than spending all of my time with lawyers and accountants. [Oops! This post just got interrupted because the health department came for a surprise inspection. More administrative work, unfortunately.] However, there are some who would gravitate to this type of role due to their primary gifting being in more administrative areas. I never, however, describe myself as a "pastor," merely a "former pastor" doing CEO work for a ministry.

I have no problem with staff pastors being called pastors if they are expected to preach and teach, counsel and shepherd, marry and bury. However, the logic of an ordained person acting as Rev. COO is a bit more of a stretch for my old school mind.


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## Clay7926

Romans922 said:


> I really like (meaning don't like) the title: Minister of Worship Arts
> 
> This is the name for the music director.



Whenever I hear that phrase, I think of every martial arts cliche.


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