# Why is an M.Div considered a Masters degree?



## CDM (Oct 6, 2006)

An MBA, depending upon the institutions can range anywhere betweeen 25 to 50 credits for a Masters degree.

An engineer I work with, got his Master's in Civil Engineering at NC State totaling 35 credits. I've heard of some MBA's going into 60 credits.

What's the deal with the M.Div then?

At RTS, the M.Div. totals about *104* credits (not including if you were to major in a subject)!



Speaking of RTS, has their policy always been that the Winter semester is only 1 week courses all day long? Jan 8 - Jan 12 "Winter semester". 

Again,


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 6, 2006)

The M.Div. is similar to a "professional degree". It's more akin to the guy who goes to Law School, than the guy who gets a Master's degree on top of his B.A. or B.S. It involves a lot of specialized training and instruction. It is a true Master's Degree, because it (usually) requires the study capacity of a college graduate. But sometimes you will find well-qualified non-college grads getting through Seminary. They get the same instruction and training, but their degree is usually "Batchelor of Divinity" or B.Div. The only difference is that College degree. But there are a lot fewer of them, at least from reformed seminaries.

The Th.M. is the "Master's degree" equivalent to an additional degree "on top" of the basic instruction. Then the Ph.D. or Th.D. or D.D. degree for doctorate level work. In the field of Divinity, there is not the major "glut" of upper-level degreed men as found in so many other fields. The "glut" is at the bottom, which is why there are so many phony advanced degrees among "pastors". So many have faked greater education attainments to separate themselves from the pack.

[Edited on 10-6-2006 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Cheshire Cat (Oct 8, 2006)

So do you need an M.Div before you can get a Th.M.? I'm a little confused...


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## RamistThomist (Oct 8, 2006)

> _Originally posted by mangum_
> 
> Speaking of RTS, has their policy always been that the Winter semester is only 1 week courses all day long? Jan 8 - Jan 12 "Winter semester".
> 
> Again,



My Hebrew 2 course at RTS Jackson was 3 weeks long in January, five days a week, three hours a day. Some classes are one week, some longer. 

Paul Helm, for example, is doing History of Philosophy and Christian Thought at RTS Jackson in the winter. It will only last 2-3 weeks. However, he is requiring his students to do all the reading ahead of time.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 8, 2006)

> _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> So do you need an M.Div before you can get a Th.M.? I'm a little confused...



Not always. Some schools will allow a Master's of Arts, _provided you can write well and can convince them of having the necessary study capaibilities_. Me, for example, I was going to go to NOBTS and get my Masters of Arts in Theological studies (about 60 hours) and then go on to get my PhD/ThM. 

If you are going to invest the pain, time, and money for an ThM degree, go ahead and get the PhD degree instead.


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## polemic_turtle (Oct 8, 2006)

What is the difference between a PhD and a D.D. ? I know they're both the top of the line, but why do I see some theologians with a PhD rather than a D.D. ?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 8, 2006)

I think most institutions are doing away with both a D.D and a ThD. I don't know why.


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 8, 2006)

As I understand the history, most MDiv degrees were once Bachelor's degrees (BD). This is true of the Westminster's MDiv. It was a BD that became in the 1970's (when boomer started going to seminary in numbers; their friends were earning ther MA's so the pressure mounted to make the BD an MDiv).

Rev Buchanan is correct, it is a professional degree, but it is also an Arts degree. It is partly one and partly the other. It's like a law degree in that regard. 

The ThM is intended to provide a year of specialized study for one with an MDiv. A student might write a thesis in exegetical, historical, or systematic theology, ideally to become a resources for a given presbytery. It sometimes forms a bridge between the MDiv and a PhD. 

A PhD/DPhil and the ThD are earned degrees academic. The DD is an honorary degree given in recognition for outstanding service. 

rsc


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## RamistThomist (Oct 8, 2006)

Dr Clark,
Is it really necessary to get a ThM if one plans on getting a PhD anyway? Let's say that money and time are limited, would it be a better use of one's money to go the PhD route?


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## Cheshire Cat (Oct 8, 2006)

Mainly I'm wondering what route would you go if you wanted to get your PhD in theology? Do you have to get a ThM before you can get the PhD in theology? Do you have to get an M.Div. before you can get the PhD, or can you just get a Masters of Arts in something close to theology and then move on to get your PhD? 

My main question is how would you go about from your bachelors degree to getting a PhD in theology?


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 9, 2006)

It depends upon circumstances. Sadly, some MDiv programs are not very rigorous. I'm not naming names, but it's a fact. That person might need a ThM, or one who had a poor GPA might need to do a ThM. In most PhD programs in the USA one is going to start in the MA program anyway, so, in most cases, no, one doesn't need a ThM to get a PhD. As I said, a ThM is intended as a sort of terminal degree.

rsc



> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Dr Clark,
> Is it really necessary to get a ThM if one plans on getting a PhD anyway? Let's say that money and time are limited, would it be a better use of one's money to go the PhD route?


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> It depends upon circumstances. Sadly, some MDiv programs are not very rigorous. I'm not naming names, but it's a fact. That person might need a ThM, or one who had a poor GPA might need to do a ThM. In most PhD programs in the USA one is going to start in the MA program anyway, so, in most cases, no, one doesn't need a ThM to get a PhD. As I said, a ThM is intended as a sort of terminal degree.
> 
> rsc
> ...


You know that reminds me of something I've heard:

"Scripture tells you to be equipped for the ministry but it doesn't tell you where to go to Seminary.

Relax...

Westminster Seminary in California..."

Such a soothing voice.


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 9, 2006)

"You _know_ it's the right thing to do."


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 9, 2006)

Caleb,

How and where one earns a PhD in theology is determined by the desired outcome. If you want to teach theology in an accredited school, you must earn a university degree. Most seminary degrees, except in special circumstances, will not get you on the "short list" for a teaching post. Princeton Seminary and Yale and Harvard Div would be an exception to that rule as might Duke Div School. Otherwise, you're looking at a university PhD. 

Most secular universities don't offer theology PhD's so then you're looking at a religious school of some kind (usually Roman Catholic) or a school with a memory of its religious heritage. If you want to do "philosophical theology," you can do that in some state-funded university philosophy depts.

Most of the time a person with a BA will have to earn an MA and then apply to the PhD program of a given university, sometimes the same school and sometimes another.

There's no "one size fits all" approach to getting a PhD. 

rsc



> _Originally posted by caleb_woodrow_
> Mainly I'm wondering what route would you go if you wanted to get your PhD in theology? Do you have to get a ThM before you can get the PhD in theology? Do you have to get an M.Div. before you can get the PhD, or can you just get a Masters of Arts in something close to theology and then move on to get your PhD?
> 
> My main question is how would you go about from your bachelors degree to getting a PhD in theology?


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## R. Scott Clark (Oct 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> "You _know_ it's the right thing to do."



Amen. 

We should use that 

rsc


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## Cheshire Cat (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks for the reply Dr. Clark.


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