# To homeschool OR not to Homeschool? What curriculum to use and How MUCH will is cost?



## irresistible_grace

We talked about homeschooling long before we ever had children. The last four years have flown by so fast and our oldest child is ready to start school. Meanwhile, I'm ready to throw in the towel! Public school seems so easy but doesn't appear to be of any (spiritually) worth. If we are going to homeschool, what curriculum should we use? How much will is cost (time & money)? Is anyone using Covenant Home Curriculum? And, is it worth it?


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## SolaScriptura

Jessica,
What follows is from my wife, Kay. She isn't a member of the PB, but when I saw your post I asked her if she'd be willing to sit down and type some thoughts to you. These are her words, her thoughts and feelings:

I personally loved Covenant Home curriculum. I did that with our first 2 years of schooling to the 'T'. However, it is pricey and once our second child began school we could not afford it. I still use it as the backbone of what I create for our curriculum as we have 3 of our 5 doing classes with mommy. 

I don't know how to address your 'time' and 'money' question. Covenant Home does cost money, but you can 'make it up' yourself off ebay and CBD.com or even amazon.com. I rarely pay full price for any of the books we use. I always hit the CBD sales in the summer for any consumables when they offer free shipping discounts. Your time is a whole different issue. Homeschooling means no time for yourself all day long. It means answering school questions while in the bathroom. It means pens and pencils that break, it means sharpeners that break, it means dry erase boards (recommended) and the supplies for that. I personally do a lot of printing off the internet for free handwriting pages or anything that you can find free ;-) Notebooks and erasers... be sure to hit any back-to-school sales you can, for sure. Even set money aside for it during the summer.

It can be completely exhausting to teach your children at home. Don't let anyone pressure you on this issue. There will be days when it takes every ounce of will power to just get them to sit down and color a page of 'red' stuff. I have found that boys need more creativity with schooling because their attention levels are very small. My daughter can sit and bust her school out in a fraction of the time. So you may want to account for the child's personality as well. If your children are very close in age, may I suggest Tapestry of Grace as they get beyond the basics of elementary. That system has a common backbone learning grid and you tailor each child's tasks to their learning level. But, I will also tell you that I love it!!! I would not give it up, even on the very horrible days of still juggling mommy duties, discipline, and teaching. I love the light that comes on when they 'get' something new. I love being the one to teach my kids to read and sharing stories with them. I get choked up each time my oldest tells me "you know mom, i love you being my teacher." It is rough, but oh so worth it. May God bless you on your educational journey.


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## goodnews

irresistible_grace said:


> We talked about homeschooling long before we ever had children. The last four years have flown by so fast and our oldest child is ready to start school. Meanwhile, I'm ready to throw in the towel! Public school seems so easy but doesn't appear to be of any (spiritually) worth. If we are going to homeschool, what curriculum should we use? How much will is cost (time & money)? Is anyone using Covenant Home Curriculum? And, is it worth it?



Jess - my wife and I have never wanted to homeschool but were forced into it this year. My oldest daughter is bright (like her mother) and needs to be challenged. In kindergarten and first grade she was challenged somewhat and we let her stay in public school since my wife taught there and would help ensure her quality of education, even though the county we live in does not have a good school system. This year, the economy made the class sizes much larger. And, the county decided to cater to the less advanced students, threatening teachers who didn't get those students "caught up." So Gracie was left daily to fend for herself and was used by the teacher as a tutor, without learning much herself. All this is to say we decided to homeschool and haven't looked back. We can't afford private school and haven't heard good things about the local ones anyway. I don't know much about the various curriculums offered. But, some states offer a publicly funded, home school alternative(we live in GA, although I've heard NC has it too). The curriculum is free, and the twice weekly computer lectures (done by public school teachers) are also free. We just pay for the books. The curriculum is advanced and challenging. And, we simply subsidize the curriculum with our own Biblical teaching/catechism/Scripture memory, etc., to ensure she gets all we want her to get. As with any homeschool curriculum there is a good bit of a time commitment on the part of the parents. But, the cost is minimal, and we get the be the ones who dictate her spiritual learning.


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## CharlieJ

I recommend reading this short post and then contacting the author. She's been coaching beginning homeschooling for years. She has tons of contacts and information. It will be ok. 

One Size Fits All… Doesn’t | Sunniemom's Survival Guide


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## LawrenceU

Homeschooling does take work, but it is well worth the effort. It actually becomes a natural part of the family's ebb and flow in a short time. There are a variety of methods to use and some of the best don't use a 'box curriculum'. The first couple of years the boxes can be helpful, but you will most likely find that you can do it more cheaply and, most importantly, more effectively for your child as you get to know how they learn. Remember, the goal of teaching a child, whether it is in a school or at home, is to shape the child's heart and character. Knowledge is actually secondary, even in a brick and mortar school. There is normally no better method of discipling a child than to 'educate' them at home.


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## Scot

This is well worth getting as you're preparing. Training Up Children: Dr. R.C. Sproul, Jr. - Teaching Series - Christian Living, Education, Marriage and Family, Parenting | Ligonier Ministries Store

We used Covenant Home at first and I believe it's very good. My wife liked it at first because everything was laid out for her to follow. After we became more relaxed we switched to this curriculum. Veritas Press - classical education curriculum for Christian schools and home schools


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## proregno

The first book I recommend to all who consider homeschooling, is the book by RC Sproul, jnr: When You Rise Up - A Covenantal Approach to Homeschooling. See book info (table of contents and sample chapters) here. 

The main reason for the recommendation can be found in the following words of a reviewer: 

"For many years we attended homeschool conferences and followed a few of the latest homeschool fads. We learned some very helpful things about how to do academics, and we were often encouraged by the many fine folks we met. But as the years flew by, we realized that what we needed was not a better math or phonics program. We needed more wisdom about how to raise children to pursue wisdom, not just knowledge for its own sake. We noticed that many of the star speakers at homeschool conferences were emphasizing the technical aspects of teaching academics, but the foundational reasons for homeschooling were being neglected. That is why R.C. Sproul, Jr.'s book, When You Rise Up: A Covenantal Approach to Homeschooling, is such an important treatise on the subject."

And: 

"No matter how long you have been homeschooling, you should continue to refresh your education about why you are teaching your children and how to go about your important job. When You Rise Up is an important tool for this purpose as it strips away the extraneous details that distract us from the bottom line, and it gets to the heart of the matter, which is reaching the hearts of our children for the glory of God."

If you are convinced by the 'why', the 'how' in God's gracious providence will follow. The 'how' can change from time to time, the 'why' stay the same and is the inspiration to be faithful to our covenant promises to teach and admonish our little ones in the fear of God (Deut.6:4etc). 

ps. Another advantage of the book: you can listen to 'You Rise me up' song, when the children have you 'down and out' after a hard homeschool day !


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## Dwimble

SolaScriptura said:


> ...Your time is a whole different issue. Homeschooling means no time for yourself all day long. It means answering school questions while in the bathroom...


One little comment about this, just in case someone takes this statement literally and believes that he or she will truly be schooling the child all day long and doing nothing else. I haven't met anyone yet who has to homeschool their child anywhere near as many hours per week as that child would have to be in a public school. And what's more is that they generally learn MUCH more and much faster than they would in school. Granted, it will take you many more hours than if the child was off at school somewhere and you had all day to yourself, but it won't take near as many hours as they'd spend in school.

Depending on the child and his age, anywhere from an hour to several hours per day is sufficient. Nothing like the roughly 8 hours they'd spend in public school every day from K-12. It is incredible how much time is wasted in schools just getting all the kids to line up for this, settle down for that, listen to the instructions, and so on. And then there's all that time required to teach them to "reduce, reuse, and recycle." I mean, they've got to have their priorities.


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## irresistible_grace

Please tell Kay I said, "THANK YOU SO MUCH!"

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goodnews said:


> We can't afford private school and haven't heard good things about the local ones anyway. I don't know much about the various curriculums offered. But, some states offer a publicly funded, home school alternative(we live in GA, although I've heard NC has it too). The curriculum is free, and the twice weekly computer lectures (done by public school teachers) are also free. We just pay for the books. The curriculum is advanced and challenging. And, we simply subsidize the curriculum with our own Biblical teaching/catechism/Scripture memory, etc., to ensure she gets all we want her to get. As with any homeschool curriculum there is a good bit of a time commitment on the part of the parents. But, the cost is minimal, and we get the be the ones who dictate her spiritual learning.



Thank you, Pastor Jacobs!

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CharlieJ said:


> I recommend reading this short post and then contacting the author. She's been coaching beginning homeschooling for years. She has tons of contacts and information. It will be ok.



Thank you, beyond words!

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LawrenceU said:


> The first couple of years the boxes can be helpful, but you will most likely find that you can do it more cheaply and, most importantly, more effectively for your child as you get to know how they learn. Remember, the goal of teaching a child, whether it is in a school or at home, is to shape the child's heart and character. Knowledge is actually secondary, even in a brick and mortar school. There is normally no better method of discipling a child than to 'educate' them at home.



Thank you, Pastor Underwood!


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## au5t1n

I can think of precious few good reasons to send a Christian child to be educated in public school, and most of those reasons involve multiple debilitating illnesses in the family and a church family with no members willing to lend a hand in schooling. The apostasy rate after high school among public-schooled Christian children, no matter which study you look at, is always reported somewhere between 75-93%, while the rate for home-schooled Christian children is down there in the single-digit percent range. Please pray and think about this carefully (Well, obviously you are already doing that, given this thread, so no worries there ). If you have the option not to send your child to public school, please don't.


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## Montanablue

Dwimble said:


> One little comment about this, just in case someone takes this statement literally and believes that he or she will truly be schooling the child all day long and doing nothing else. I haven't met anyone yet who has to homeschool their child anywhere near as many hours per week as that child would have to be in a public school. And what's more is that they generally learn MUCH more and much faster than they would in school. Granted, it will take you many more hours than if the child was off at school somewhere and you had all day to yourself, but it won't take near as many hours as they'd spend in school.



Just a clarification - I think this depends on the child. I have 3 siblings ( we were all homeschooled) and 1 of us took A LOT of time. My mother had to work with him all day and sometimes my father would come home and have to continue with him into the evening. There were a number of issues at work in the situation, but homeschooling can be back breakingly hard. 

I'm not a homeschool Mom, but almost everything Kay said are things I've heard my mother say.



SolaScriptura said:


> It can be completely exhausting to teach your children at home. Don't let anyone pressure you on this issue.



That especially rings true. I've seen moms who had no business homeschooling (and who suspected as much) get pressured into doing it by others. Its a total disaster for you and for the kids. I loved being homeschooled and I'm so glad my parents did it. It was definitely the right thing for me and 2 of my siblings. But honestly, it would have been better if my 3rd sibling had gone into some kind of conventional schooling program. We've all discussed this and my parents have said that that was a mistake they made and that if they had to do it again, they would have taken another option.

I don't mean to be discouraging, becuase I'm really a huge advocate of homeschooling. Its the best thing my parents did for me. But its also hard and I think its best to go into it with open eyes. My mom (a physical therapist who has worked 12 hour shifts) told me it was the hardest thing she ever did.

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Oh, but Michael, I do want to note that for most kids, you do spend much less time. Until I was in 5th grade, I was done by noon. It wasn't until high school that I had to do work until 2 or 3 in the afternoon. By my last year, I was taking physics and calculus, so I was working until at least 4, but when you think of the amount of homework that public school kids have to do, that's really not bad.


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## TimV

However long it takes, how ever hard it is, who cares? If those are factors you shouldn't have had kids.

Last night my last two at home were at the table doing Junior College homework. Deborah, who's 16 just started, and was doing biology, and David who just turned 18 (my FB page has a short video from last weekend's MMA tourney where he got gold  ) was doing criminal justice. I asked Deborah how her biology class went, which is the first time she's ever been in a non homeschooling situation. She said it's great, and she's glad to see evolution is a true theory, and is so logical. She said it with her normal smooth humor, and only the other parents of older kids here can tell you what that did to me. The basics got put there by church and homeschooling, and the combination of personal vindication and boiling over gratitude to God Almighty just can't be described.


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## Pergamum

You wouldn't want wolves to raise your children, right? Or American popular culture. That is what you would be getting by allowing your child into most public schools.

We use Sonlight and we like it.


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## Dwimble

Pergamum said:


> You wouldn't want wolves to raise your children, right? Or American popular culture. That is what you would be getting by allowing your child into most public schools.
> 
> We use Sonlight and we like it.


Our main reason for choosing to homeschool our daughter (as opposed to putting her in a public school) is simply this, that even in a public school where the teachers and quality are exemplary, it is still roughly 40 hours per week of teaching the children everything from a completely secular, naturalistic point of view. From the public school perspective, God is something for a religion class and has nothing whatsoever to do with English, History, Mathematics, or anything else. But in truth, God is at the center of ALL these things, and the child should be raised seeing God's hand at work in everything...from astronomy to zoology.


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## LawrenceU

Dwimble said:


> Our main reason for choosing to homeschool our daughter (as opposed to putting her in a public school) is simply this, that even in a public school where the teachers and quality are exemplary, it is still roughly 40 hours per week of teaching the children everything from a completely secular, naturalistic point of view. From the public school perspective, God is something for a religion class and has nothing whatsoever to do with English, History, Mathematics, or anything else. But in truth, God is at the center of ALL these things, and the child should be raised seeing God's hand at work in everything...from astronomy to zoology.



This man wins the prize!!


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## fishingpipe

Jess, feel free to call Stacie any time. I can't put to words how blessed we feel to be able to teach our own children. Public school is not an option for us for pretty much the same reasons mentioned above. Christian school might be an option if something happened to us that prevented us from teaching them ourselves. But we strongly believe that raising our children is our responsibility, not someone else's. 

We didn't use a curriculum for our boys from K-2. Stacie developed her own. (She is certified K-6 in NC.) We now use 2-3 different curriculums for the 4-5 grades our oldest two are in, depending on the subject. Stacie's experience teaching in the public schools for close to 10-years caused her quickly to understand that much (most?) of the systems and methodology they used in government education would not work in a Christian homeschool setting. At least not in ours.

In terms of cost, we are able to educate them for far less than we would sending them even to a relatively "affordable" Christian school. Usually a few hundred dollars a year. I'm sure that will change as they get older, but right now it is not oppresive to us financially. Besides, Stacie is very crafty and can do quite a bit on her own in terms of resources. (She is a couponing master, for instance.)

There's so many directions you could go. Use this time to explore, reach out to homeschoolers, and find what's best for you and your little ones. If you decide to homeschool the support is widespread. Give it a strong look!


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## KMK

The choice doesn't have to be either 'send my child off to public school' or 'homeschool on my own.' There is a plethora of public independent study charter schools which allow you to use your ADA money and still educate them at home. (For example, all 4 of my homeschoolers take weekly piano lessons at the county's expense.) Why not let your tax dollars go to work for your own children!


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## Montanablue

TimV said:


> However long it takes, how ever hard it is, who cares?



Mom having a nervous breakdown isn't good for anyone.


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## JBaldwin

There _are_ so many ways to educate children, and for us, homeschooling was the only option. In addition to the advice given above, may I suggest you take some time to determine what is your philosophy of education. Ask yourself some questions:

What worldview do you want your children to have?
Are you interested in forming their character, are you interested in educating their minds, do you want to teach them to think for themselves?

I don't think you can even think about what curriculum to use until you answer these questions for yourself. 

I highly recommend homeschooling, and I strongly suggest that before you start you decide what you want to accomplish for your children. The more vague you are about that, the more frustrated you will be down the road.


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## jwithnell

I agree completely with Kathleen that there are some folks who really shouldn't be homeschooling. Even within a family, you sometimes see a parent-child combination that just doesn't work for schooling. But all of us as parents have a responsibility before God to rear our children to honor and glorify Him whether we home school, go to a private school, or even a combination. (Some Christian schools can be extremely accommodating to the home school community.)

Let me encourage you to consider that the decision you make for your first year (outside of starting in the public schools) will not determine what you do in subsequent years. The difficult years for home school generally begin as you push up through middle school and beyond. Then you will get to where a block of work essentially must be done. Early on, you can be much more relaxed. If you want to use a set curriculum, fine. If you want to enrich your child's life with excellent literature, plenty of craft/coloring/painting time and hands-on practical experiences ("See! It takes two half cups of flour to make one whole cup ... do you want to measure next?") the literacy and numeracy skills are likely to follow easily. Now that I've home schooled all grades, I can promise you that your child will not end up in the federal pen because you made the wrong choice for reading in the second grade! Relax. 

These early years are absolutely crucial. My 5 and 7-year-old are constantly asking me questions about God, about family, about who-goes-with whom in relationships and so forth. Do not for a moment believe the public schools are neutral on these issues or that you can "supplement" outside of school hours. In fact, after starting out homeschooling with a very strict schedule and classroom-like curriculum, I've become convinced that young kids learn more from their home than they do from any other source, if indeed they are spending a lot of time in the home. Is reading important to you? Are you curious about what's out in creation? Do you study God's word? These things will speak more loudly to your child than anything else out there.



> some states offer a publicly funded, home school alternative(we live in GA, although I've heard NC has it too). The curriculum is free, and the twice weekly computer lectures


Be aware that your student will be enrolled as a public school student.You will come under much greater scrutiny if you choose to "withdraw" and school on your own. A major home school organization will not give you legal assistance if you go this route.


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## irresistible_grace

jwithnell said:


> Now that I've home schooled all grades, I can promise you that your child will not end up in the federal pen because you made the wrong choice for reading in the second grade! Relax.



Thank you SO MUCH!

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fishingpipe said:


> Jess, feel free to call Stacie any time.



Thank you, brother. I know I could learn so much from your lovely bride. I miss you both so very much! 
BTW - We'll be heading through Sanford on Feb 12th on our way to Fayettnam.

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irresistible_grace said:


> I'm ready to throw in the towel! Public school seems so easy but doesn't appear to be of any (spiritually) worth. If we are going to homeschool, what curriculum should we use?



I am thankful for all of the replies to this thread. I only said that I was ready to throw in the towel because I thought I had to know which curriculum to to use! Public school has never really been an option for us even though it seems like the easy option. Because, I'm reminded again and again, *"the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many."*

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Dwimble said:


> From the public school perspective, God is something for a religion class and has nothing whatsoever to do with English, History, Mathematics, or anything else. But in truth, God is at the center of ALL these things, and the child should be raised seeing God's hand at work in everything...from astronomy to zoology.


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## nicnap

If the Lord gives us children, my wife and I plan on homeschooling them. That being said, I just want to break in with a small dose of reality. Homeschool is not not the fix of all things in the family/culture/society, etc. Unless the Lord blesses, homeschooled children can turn out as pagan as publicly educated children. (It's the same with food ... organic food is not the fix to health; if the Lord doesn't bless it, no matter if it's loaded with preservatives or if it has never been near rBGH, it will cause cancer.) Why? Because we are all affected by the fall. I absolutely believe that homeschooling is best, but to hear some (not necessarily those on this board, but within the realm of Evangelical and even Reformed Christianity) talk, it is the answer to all the societal woes. 


Okay, back to my normal lurking.

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Also ... sorry if this didn't exactly address the OP ... I think I was just on a tangent.


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## bill

Dwimble said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Your time is a whole different issue. Homeschooling means no time for yourself all day long. It means answering school questions while in the bathroom...
> 
> 
> 
> One little comment about this, just in case someone takes this statement literally and believes that he or she will truly be schooling the child all day long and doing nothing else. I haven't met anyone yet who has to homeschool their child anywhere near as many hours per week as that child would have to be in a public school. And what's more is that they generally learn MUCH more and much faster than they would in school. Granted, it will take you many more hours than if the child was off at school somewhere and you had all day to yourself, but it won't take near as many hours as they'd spend in school.
> 
> Depending on the child and his age, anywhere from an hour to several hours per day is sufficient. Nothing like the roughly 8 hours they'd spend in public school every day from K-12. It is incredible how much time is wasted in schools just getting all the kids to line up for this, settle down for that, listen to the instructions, and so on. And then there's all that time required to teach them to "reduce, reuse, and recycle." I mean, they've got to have their priorities.
Click to expand...

 
If you decide to home school most states have required amount of hours a child must have in a year. Regardless of whether or not you agree it is the law.

As for schooling I and my wife have my 3 soon to be 5 kids in public school. But that is work too. My wife is very active in helping out at school she talks to many of our kids teachers as well as many of the other teachers. Lots of time she will bake things for them. They don't all agree with our christian biblical world view, however, her witnessing in the public school has opened doors for after school bible studies with K-5 graders. Also she will meet with some of the troubled students and pray with them. (Don't tell me prayer isn't in school, it isn't in if christians take it out). It is lots of work also, but it is worth it. My kids doing just fine and my wife and I are always finding out what the kids are learning. It has been great for us and I would encourage any who are willing to be a witness to put there kids in school.


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## TimV

Bill I realise that your school system is better than ours, but you may want to keep in mind that your kids are a bit young to be missionaries.


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## LawrenceU

If you put one puts children in an institution designed to make them good citizens of the State who follow orders well, who can have their convictions changed according to the latest people in power, who are more concerned about fitting in than leading then one should not complain when that is what they become. That is precisely what the public education system was designed to do. There is nothing wrong with public education. It is fulfilling its designers schemes quite well and getting better at it all the time. As one wise man once said, 'If you send your kids to a Roman school don't be surprised then they come out adoring Caesar.'


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## jwithnell

Here are the basics for home schooling in North Carolina. I'm glad to see no set hours and that this doesn't start until age 7:

Compulsory Attendance Ages: “Between the ages of seven and 16 years.” General Statutes of North Carolina § 115C-378.
Required Days of Instruction: At least nine calendar months of the year, excluding reasonable holidays and vacations. § 115C-548 or § 115-556.
Required Subjects: None required but annual standardized testing must measure achievement in the areas of English grammar, reading, spelling, and mathematics.

And another interesting law:
“It is the public policy of the State in matters of education that ‘No human authority shall, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience’, or with religious liberty and that ‘religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind ... the means of education shall forever be encouraged’.” N.C. Gen. Stat. § 115C-547.

From the public portion of the HSLDA website


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## TexanRose

bill said:


> If you decide to home school most states have required amount of hours a child must have in a year. Regardless of whether or not you agree it is the law.



Not true in Texas nor in Indiana, the two states in which I've homeschooled/been homeschooled. Look into your own state's regulations before making any decisions.


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## JBaldwin

LawrenceU said:


> If you put one puts children in an institution designed to make them good citizens of the State who follow orders well, who can have their convictions changed according to the latest people in power, who are more concerned about fitting in than leading then one should not complain when that is what they become. That is precisely what the public education system was designed to do. There is nothing wrong with public education. It is fulfilling its designers schemes quite well and getting better at it all the time. As one wise man once said, 'If you send your kids to a Roman school don't be surprised then they come out adoring Caesar.'



Well said. It is amazing to me how fast this happens. We watched this happen a lot with my daughter's friends who've gone from being homeschooled in the lower grades to attend public school. I will add however, that the most of the parents were already homeschooling their children with public school in the back of their minds, so there was probably some pre-conditioning happening at home.


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## irresistible_grace

TimV said:


> your kids are a bit young to be missionaries


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## Dwimble

bill said:


> If you decide to home school most states have required amount of hours a child must have in a year. Regardless of whether or not you agree it is the law.


I don't know about "most," but definitely _some_ require it. Texas, where we live, has no such requirement and is very friendly to homeschooling.

Some other states such as Alabama, for example, have some laws that are a bit draconian in my view. I don't know how strictly they enforce those laws, but in Alabama homeschooling isn't even recognized as an allowable option. Your child has to be in attendance at a "church school" (although that can be in a home...which is how some can get around the law), enrollment and attendance of the child in the church school must be reported to the local public school superintendent ("on a form provided by the superintendent ... which shall be countersigned by the administrator of the church school"), "the principal teacher of the church school must keep an attendance register for each day of the school year," and other things.

You can optionally go the "private tutor" route in Alabama, but that requires that the tutor be "state certified" and teach “for at least three hours a day for 140 days each calendar year, between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.” And the tutor has to report all kinds of things to the state board of education.

But here's the kicker, "If the local school district believes a family is not in compliance with the law, it must give the family 3 days’ written notice prior to instituting criminal charges." So ultimately, no matter what, in Alabama you are under the authority of the local public school district whether you like it or not.

Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.

I often ask myself, how did our country come to this?


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## Elizabeth

One of the few beauties of living in IL is the state's hands-off home school laws. For good or ill, home educators here are completely free from any sort of state interference. Every once in a while, a rogue superintendent will try to force the issue with families, but they're pretty quickly put in their place by HSLDA.


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## LawrenceU

Dwimble said:


> Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.



Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.


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## bill

TimV said:


> Bill I realise that your school system is better than ours, but you may want to keep in mind that your kids are a bit young to be missionaries.



I do not believe I was trying to say my children were missionaries so I ask for you to withdraw that comment. I don't care if one homeschools or public schools or private schools. I believe the thread started to asking the question to homeshool or not to homeschool. I think there are many considerations you have to think about. There are those how say where I send my kids are a bad place. Well none of them have even been there. They are quick to judge them, but not willing to get involved to try to change it. No matter what one decides to do with schooling there children the most important part is being involved it what they are learning no matter if it is in the home or somewhere else. If one is not willing to put in the work or have trouble teaching I would suggest looking at other options and not get on a band wagon.


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## irresistible_grace

bill said:


> No matter what one decides to do with schooling there children the most important part is being involved ... If one is not willing to put in the work or have trouble teaching I would suggest looking at other options and not get on a band wagon.


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## kvanlaan

A public school builds upon sand, there is no foundation to it. If God is absent, what good can come of it in the end? We as fathers have the responsibility to educate our children and who we appoint as a proxy to that (which I have no problem with, though we homeschool) is hugely important. I cannot justify handing my children to Caesar, unless there is simply no other option.


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## CatherineL

There have been so many helpful responses already, but I'll throw in my thoughts as a new home schooler. My oldest daughter just turned 6 and has been officially homeschooling since September. We're using Sonlight as a basis, with other math and electives. We spent about $700 for everything this year. (We could have done it cheaper, I'm sure, but I have benefited from the schedule and "out of the box" route this year. Next year might be different now that I've gotten my feet wet.) I spend maybe 3 hours a day with her as dedicated school time. She has 3 younger siblings (4, 2, and 9 months) and this includes interruption time.  It can be exhausting, but I think it *is* worth is for our family. I love that I can tailor everything to our exact needs - go faster or slower as needed, really making sure concepts are learned thoroughly at the child's pace. For example, because I worked on teaching her to read and doing basic math last year, she was beyond the normal K language arts, so we're doing first grade work in those subjects. I also love that she's at home to spend time with her siblings and me - once her work is done, she has time for play, crafts, music practice, etc - we're not wasting time with busy work, lining up, etc. 

As far as regs, we're in MD, which according to HSLDA is a state of moderate regulation (ie, their second highest ranking) but we don't have "hour" requirements. You have to show that you are teaching all the subjects taught in public school - for us that's language arts, math, history, science, art, music, health, and P.E. Seems overwhelming! However, bearing in mind that if my daughter went to public school , she'd only be doing science/art/music/heath/PE once a week at most, it makes it much more do-able.


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## Scot

> A public school builds upon sand, there is no foundation to it. If God is absent, what good can come of it in the end? We as fathers have the responsibility to educate our children and who we appoint as a proxy to that (which I have no problem with, though we homeschool) is hugely important. I cannot justify handing my children to Caesar, unless there is simply no other option.


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## EKSB SDG

Homeschool. Definitely Homeschool! We've been doing it (formally) for 15 years and have about 5 more years to go.

We've done it with our children who have a wide range of learning ability. We homeschooled our oldest through 12th grade. She was the only National Merit finalist in our county the year she graduated. She's now a junior in college majoring in biblical languages. On the other end of the educational spectrum is our youngest daughter with numerous learning impairments. In both these cases, as well as with our other children, we've been able to tailor the curriculum to meet their particular needs, interests, and abilities.

There are tons of great curruculum options covering a wide range of student needs and abilities (as well as parent needs and abilities).

In terms of financial cost -- it may cost you more money than sending your children to the government schools (or it may not). But I'd look at the cost in more than dollars and sense. There's lots of evidence of the cost and damage to your children of sending them to the government schools.

"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 (ESV)


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## irresistible_grace

EKSB SDG said:


> Homeschool. Definitely Homeschool!


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## irresistible_grace

I would like to thank everyone for their comments (for/against homeschooling). I have found much encouragement from the dialogue above! 
For the record: We are going to homeschool our covenant children (and NO we're not jumping on a bandwagon or selling out). 
At the end of the day, I probably should have titled this Thread...
*"To homeschool OR private school? Cost of curriculum vs. tuition? Where does one begin?"* 
As I've stated above, my only reason for even mentioning _public school_ is because it _seems_ like the easy route/out (Uncle Sam is going to get _his_ money before our paycheck ever hits the bank _regardless_ of the choice we make concerning how to educate our children)! Ultimately, we see no REFORM in the government school system (at least since J Gresham Machen's day). So, we're unwilling to place our covenant children into the government school system and _hope for the best_. Instead, we are going to attempt to construct our own Christ-centered home curriculum and pray that the one true, living, God will be glorified in our feeble attempt to train His children, in righteousness, to fear Him!


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## Dwimble

LawrenceU said:


> Dwimble said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to cause any offense. I don't know what the typical parent has to go through to homeschool there; that's why I said "_I don't know how strictly they enforce those laws_" in my original post. My point was simply that some states have liberal laws and some have rather severe laws regarding homeschooling, with Alabama being one of the first one's I noticed. I'm glad to hear that you are still able to homeschool there without the authorities interfering. In my view those laws are unjust, so I'm glad they aren't enforcing them. I pray that continues and they eventually repeal them altogether.


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## JBaldwin

irresistible_grace said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their comments (for/against homeschooling). I have found much encouragement from the dialogue above!
> For the record: We are going to homeschool our covenant children (and NO we're not jumping on a bandwagon or selling out).
> At the end of the day, I probably should have titled this Thread...
> *"To homeschool OR private school? Cost of curriculum vs. tuition? Where does one begin?"*
> As I've stated above, my only reason for even mentioning _public school_ is because it _seems_ like the easy route/out (Uncle Sam is going to get _his_ money before our paycheck ever hits the bank _regardless_ of the choice we make concerning how to educate our children)! Ultimately, we see no REFORM in the government school system (at least since J Gresham Machen's day). So, we're unwilling to place our covenant children into the government school system and _hope for the best_. Instead, we are going to attempt to construct our own Christ-centered home curriculum and pray that the one true, living, God will be glorified in our feeble attempt to train His children, in righteousness, to fear Him!



I wouldn't even go the private school route unless you have an exceptionally good private school, and usually that means lots of money. 

Homeschooling is defintely less expensive. You can spend anywhere from $100 to $600 on curriculum depending on what you buy, where you buy and how much you buy. 

As I believe I mentioned before, and I know others have, you really need to figure out what philsophical approach you want to take before you start buying curriculum. The biggest mistake you can make is going out and purchasing an entire program and suddenly discover that you don't like it for whatever reason. 

I suggest learning about the various approaches. The christian approach is a given, but then you have to consider do you want to give your child a conventional education (teaching to the state standards) or a classical education using a dialectic approach. I've been homeschooling my children for years, and I am still overwhelmed at times with what's out there.


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## fishingpipe

My personal opinion is that if the public schools were all great halls of godly wisdom, completely void of secular humanism, violence, sex, drugs, abuse of authority, etc, etc, and honored Christ in all that they do, and all of the private schools were, as well, I would still feel compelled to raise and educate my own children.

I know there are a number who disagree. <insert "You're Not A Bad person If You Don't Homeschool" disclaimer here>

But my wife really does like being around our kids all day. And I like the flexibility of seeing them anytime I want throughout the day. I like being able to say, "Hey, I'm taking Thursday and Friday off. Let's head for the beach," without worrying about getting permission from the government to take my kids out for a couple of days. I like being able to school "anytime, anywhere," which to me means "all the time, everywhere." I like training them up Deuteronomy 6:4-9 style. It suits us just fine.

It's our responsibility as their Christian parents. We'll hold on to them for that 6-7 hours each day for those 36-weeks. That 1200+ hours per year is highly valued.

<repeat disclaimer from above here>


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## LawrenceU

Dwimble said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dwimble said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't mean to cause any offense. I don't know what the typical parent has to go through to homeschool there; that's why I said "_I don't know how strictly they enforce those laws_" in my original post. My point was simply that some states have liberal laws and some have rather severe laws regarding homeschooling, with Alabama being one of the first one's I noticed. I'm glad to hear that you are still able to homeschool there without the authorities interfering. In my view those laws are unjust, so I'm glad they aren't enforcing them. I pray that continues and they eventually repeal them altogether.
Click to expand...

 
That's fine. I was not offended. Actually one of the reasons Alabama is good for homeschoolong is precisely because there are no homeschool laws. When the good people from HSLDA were helping out in the early days they saw the value in that: the State cannot regulate that which it does not codify. Church schools have great latitude since they cannot be infringed upon because of the 1st amendment. If a church school has classrooms in homes the State can't say a thing against it. The states that continually give homeschoolers the greatest grief are.those with homeschool laws. If they have a law they will continually try and expand its scope.

Sent from my Super Duper Android Micro-computer talking device using Tired Thumbs and Tapatalk


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## Grimmson

LawrenceU said:


> The states that continually give homeschoolers the greatest grief are.those with homeschool laws. If they have a law they will continually try and expand its scope.



There are advantages, in my opinion of having laws for home schooling children. I have seen cases where parents who were home schooling their children were neglectful in teaching mathematics and reading, and as a result their children were behind academically to the state standards by several years. There needs to be accountability in the education of children for the sake of the children, and if a parent is not knowledgeable enough in a certain area then they need to bring someone in that is so that their children do not fall behind. The standards for home schooling education should be in the areas of grammar, spelling, mathematics, science, and history. The purpose of home schooled education should not just be to teach the faith, but to provide for the academic needs of the student so that they will be well prepared for adult hood and to train their own children one day. The beauty of home schooling is the one on one attention that is given to the child, however there are some potential problems with home schooling as well which could easily be balanced out by establishing a communion with other home schooling parents and reading on teaching methodology. Home schooling is not for everyone and it is a commitment that one better be able to deliver if one starts on the process of education. There is more to education then just buying and using curriculum book. It requires flexibility in teaching techniques, an ability to be able to explain a concept to a child gradually for the sake of their own children’s understanding, and a creativity of testing the children’s understanding. I think to some degree the church has romanticized home schooling without giving people the resources or avenues to provide parents what they need, which would include a list of standards for various age groups and assistance when needed. Education should not be thought of as an individual enterprise, but should be done with a broader context in mind.


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## TimV

David there needs to be accountability, but it's not within the States' legitimate sphere of influence. There was that case in the UK last year where the State took away a woman's son because he was overweight. That seems shocking to us, but 100 years ago it would have seemed shocking to Christians for the State to to have the power over education that it does today. The stuff creeps up on us, so we've got to be careful.


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## AThornquist

Jess, it's encouraging to read that you will homeschool your children. My five little sisters are homeschooled and they are prospering academically but even more so spiritually. I thank God for it.


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## Grimmson

TimV said:


> David there needs to be accountability, but it's not within the States' legitimate sphere of influence. There was that case in the UK last year where the State took away a woman's son because he was overweight. That seems shocking to us, but 100 years ago it would have seemed shocking to Christians for the State to to have the power over education that it does today. The stuff creeps up on us, so we've got to be careful.


 
Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment? The church? Perhaps in an ideal world, but we are far from that. Like it or not public schools have educational standards in place, and parents if their home schooling need to try to meet the standards or excel at them. I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history. I see not educating your child as a form of child abuse. If you cannot educate the child then send the child to someone that can. It should be granted that public schools may not always be the best environment; its better then having a child educationally speaking fend for him or herself. Like it or not the church as a whole has been failing in its purpose of teaching religious education, so I do not think it would be wise to add more subjects on top of that failure. 

I have seen good results and poor results from home schooling as a Christian and as an educator. I want to make it clear that I am not personally criticizing people who home school and see it as a good option with responsible parents; if one can do it then they should. However we need to know our shortcomings and balance out those short comings which requires wisdom. I have certain concerns for homeschooling, because I care and know what could happen if accountability is not in place because man as a whole are depraved beings. I have seen cases as an educator of lazy home schooling parents or parents who just did not know how to educate their child effectively. If one does not want standards on their child education, then you might as well get rid of the state standards for education as well and let each teacher be subscribed to teach whatever they want and when without boundaries. Not every home schooling parent is a Christian, therefore what about the non-religious home schooling parent or those of a differencing faith; don’t they need to have the some or the same academic standards placed on them as compared to in a public school? I would say so, the difference is of course the environment of that education, not necessarily the objective concept of what being taught in math or English. Think of the schooling environment, such as at home or in a classroom, as a circumstance of education and the objective concepts of what are taught as elements of education. It is the elements that must be accomplished, it how you satisfy those elements which allows for flexibility through circumstance of education.


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## TimV

Grimmson said:


> I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history.



Our world views are so radically different that we might as well be on other planets. You would have no problem if the State took my kids (and here in the US that could mean giving them to two homosexual men to raise) if I didn't teach them history. The likelihood of that happening is fortunately about zero, but if they did, and you acquiesced to the point of supporting the State, I would have no problem considering you a threat to my family and taking whatever actions I could get away with to remove the threat. It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.


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## Scot

> It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.



Yes and I would put it that strongly.


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## Grimmson

TimV said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our world views are so radically different that we might as well be on other planets. You would have no problem if the State took my kids (and here in the US that could mean giving them to two homosexual men to raise) if I didn't teach them history. The likelihood of that happening is fortunately about zero, but if they did, and you acquiesced to the point of supporting the State, I would have no problem considering you a threat to my family and taking whatever actions I could get away with to remove the threat. It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.
Click to expand...

In our government, here in the United States of America, parents do not have absolute right over their children to do as they please. You do not have the right to starve your child, or to beat the child senselessly. Why? Simple, because of the well being of the child, and if the well being of the child is not being cared for to allow for such abuse is morally sinful, because of the responsibility of parents to provide care and support to their children. Our State, I mean the U.S., from common grace recognizes there comes a point to for sake of the child’s mental and physical well being that the child should be taken away if the child is being neglected. Not only is such a crime of the state, but based on the reformed view of covenant children it should also be a crime of the church and one that discipline should be given accordingly. I only made the case for children to be taken away from parents because of parents refusing to teach or have some one teach the basics standards of the state, which are typically not that high academically speaking. You can teach the standards without the political agenda some of the teachers in public schools, because of the political views being a circumstance, and not a objective standard, of education. Your children would be taken away because you refuse to teach your children or send them to public school or by hiring a tutor so that your child or children will reach the standard of the state. The issue is not the fact you refuse to teach your child history, but that you refuse the law of the land that is not contrary of scripture. If the law says and has reason for it that a child should know some history about a particular topic then you need to deliver otherwise you are purposely breaking the law of the state and providing a terrible testimony to your children and the state by provoking to violence so that you can do whatever you want. Not teaching children promotes a lifetime of ignorance and distain for those subjects, such as math and reading. It can damage their learning process and critical learning process. The falling behind in the subjects and disrupt their ability to go to college or worse yet function in the society in which they live and thus affecting what they could do as their livelihood. Nobody trying to take away your children and the likelihood of your children going to a homosexual couple is in fact quite small. And there should be no concern of children being taken away of you do what your suppose to do in accordance to the law, which exists for the well being of everyone and not just you as in individual. For law you see is for the good of the society, and thus exists to promote good for that society. Therefore applying accountability by law those they need accountability for the sake of children. We should not try to think strictly under individualistic standards and how that directly affects us, but to see how this affects our society. We live in two kingdoms, citizens of both; therefore what is binding on that school teacher to teach should and must also be binding upon you because that is the standards issued by the state for what your child should be able to know and do.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------




Scot said:


> It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and I would put it that strongly.
Click to expand...

 
I sure hope you do not take that position as it relates to child abuse. Hopefully you can understand my position. And if your not following through your commitment to teach your children hopefully the church would step in for discipline prior to the state if your reformed.


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## irresistible_grace

fishingpipe said:


> My personal opinion is that if the public schools were all great halls of godly wisdom, completely void of secular humanism, violence, sex, drugs, abuse of authority, etc, etc, and honored Christ in all that they do, and all of the private schools were, as well, I would still feel compelled to raise and educate my own children.
> 
> I know there are a number who disagree. <insert "You're Not A Bad person If You Don't Homeschool" disclaimer here>
> 
> But my wife really does like being around our kids all day. And I like the flexibility of seeing them anytime I want throughout the day. I like being able to say, "Hey, I'm taking Thursday and Friday off. Let's head for the beach," without worrying about getting permission from the government to take my kids out for a couple of days. I like being able to school "anytime, anywhere," which to me means "all the time, everywhere." I like training them up Deuteronomy 6:4-9 style. It suits us just fine.
> 
> It's our responsibility as their Christian parents. We'll hold on to them for that 6-7 hours each day for those 36-weeks. That 1200+ hours per year is highly valued.
> 
> <repeat disclaimer from above here>



        

---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------




JBaldwin said:


> I suggest learning about the various approaches. The christian approach is a given, but then you have to consider do you want to give your child a conventional education (teaching to the state standards) or a classical education using a dialectic approach. I've been homeschooling my children for years, and I am still overwhelmed at times with what's out there.



Thank you very much!


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## au5t1n

Grimmson said:


> Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment?



No one. It is not anyone's job to force good parenting. You cannot regulate parenting. You can make it illegal to injure a child, but that's not a parenting law, it's a sixth commandment law. The state does not have jurisdiction over education and it's absolutely disgusting to think they should have power to _remove_ children who are not educated in the expected way. I agree with Tim's feelings about that. I know things are run a little differently over there in the People's Republic of California, but that does not make it right or biblical.

What are y'all going to do next, take away children who are taught poor manners? Remove children who are allowed to play video games all day? I know, perhaps we should remove Muslim children from their parents since Islam is a lot more dangerous than not knowing history?


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## Grimmson

austinww said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one. It is not anyone's job to force good parenting. You cannot regulate parenting. You can make it illegal to injure a child, but that's not a parenting law, it's a sixth commandment law. The state does not have jurisdiction over education and it's absolutely disgusting to think they should have power to _remove_ children who are not educated in the expected way. I agree with Tim's feelings about that. I know things are run a little differently over there in the People's Republic of California, but that does not make it right or biblical.
Click to expand...


Who said anything about regulating good parenting, that not the issue. I am not defining what good parenting is. Parenting to a degree can be regulated if a child is being abusively treated. At this point the sixth commandment does overlap towards the realm of parenting. A perfect example of this is from my home state of Arizona with Arizona Revised Statutes 13-3620, part A, subsection 3 (2005 Arizona Code - Arizona Revised Statutes §13-3620  Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions - ). It is a law with the punishment that ranges from a class one misdemeanor to a class 6 felony, whereby neglect and a variety of abuses are dealt with against adults, which include in A.3 parents, stepparents, and legal guardians of a minor. 

The state does have legal jurisdiction over education of minors. You may deny this personally, but compulsory education laws do exist and can vary from state to state. All you need to do is a quick Google search and you can find such laws. One may deny that the states have the right to have such a law, but denial is not going to get rid of the laws and it is still a law of the land that should be obeyed because we are not dealing with an issue against the gospel or scripture. Furthermore if a parent in Arizona can sue and win if I didn’t teach the state standards at a school then you can see the judicial courts ruling based on educational policy mandated by the state. And hence a legal jurisdiction by the state. It is why teachers like paper trails, it protects from wrongful lawsuits. 



austinww said:


> What are y'all going to do next, take away children who are taught poor manners? Remove children who are allowed to play video games all day? I know, perhaps we should remove Muslim children from their parents since Islam is a lot more dangerous than not knowing history?


I never said anything about video games, or poor manners, instead am dealing with real objective educational standards (not behaviors) that are easy to find at a state’s department of education website and educational accountability which is on par with a child’s growth and development positively. Chances are if a parent is being neglectful with teaching history they probably will be also in another subject like English or math. 

Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21). It is for this reason why we would be encouraged to home school children. But if we are to do that we should be as a testimony of the world as Christians mindful to the rules and objective standards of education of the state in which we live in and not cause a war against the state in an unlawful manner. Children are a gift from God, but if a parent is neglectful in their responsibility that doesn’t mean that God will not take that blessing away by some means (such as the state) if that parents duty, which includes to educate his or her child, is not being meet. For remember the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), and will have to on that day give an account for what they did as leaders.

I will not respond anymore on this thread because we are now moving away from the point of the thread.


----------



## irresistible_grace

Grimmson said:


> if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21). *It is for this reason why we would be encouraged to home school children.* But if we are to do that we should be as a testimony of the world as Christians mindful to the rules and objective standards of education of the state in which we live in and not cause a war against the state in an unlawful manner. _*Children are a gift from God*_, but if a parent is neglectful in their responsibility that doesn’t mean that God will not take that blessing away by some means (such as the state) if that parents duty, which includes to educate his or her child, is not being meet. For remember the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), and will have to on that day give an account for what they did as leaders.



Dear Mr. Jolley,
I am aware that you are unwilling to respond anymore on this thread but as the individual who began the thread I do have a few sincere questions for you. First of all, (a) Do you have children? (b) If yes, do you see your children as covenant children? (c) At what point is it unlawful for a Christian to teach their children contray to the objective standards of education of the state? (d) Where does one draw the line? And, (e) Who draws that line? To the best of my knowledge, the judicial branch of our government has pretty much deemed it unlawful to teach (as Science) that "all things" were created "In the Beginning" by the One True and Living God of Biblical Christianity while simultaneously considering Evolution (in regard to the ORIGIN of the species) to be Science. (f) Is it therefore unlawful to teach my children from the only rule God has given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him? (g) If the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), at what point is does a child have rights? 28 days after birth? At birth? At conception? (h) Where does one draw the line? (i) Who draws that line? When you stated your reason for leaving you said, "we are now moving away from the point of the thread" but the thread ask the question, "To homeschool OR not to Homeschool?" and from where I sit it doesn't appear that we have moved away from that point much if any! So, I'll ask you personally... (j) Should I homeschool my covenant children assuming, if I don't meet the standards of education (that are becoming more hostile to the Word of God) of the state, that God will take the "blessing [the children He has intrusted to me] away by some means (such as the state)?" OR (k) Should I not homeschool my covenant children in order to avoid causing a war against the state? 
In Christian Love,
Jess


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## kvanlaan

Jessica, I am awaiting the answers with bated breath...


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## au5t1n

Grimmson said:


> Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21).



We were not discussing whether Christian children should be educated (all grant this), but whether it is a grievous sin for the state to kidnap children (the Bible and the Westminster Larger Catechism call this "man-stealing," and both label it a great sin against God). You have expressed support for this practice and that is the subject under discussion. I urge you to thoughtfully reconsider your stated agreement with this wickedness on the part of the state, which grows more common every year.

I do agree with your decision to discontinue this discussion, since in light of WLC Q. 142, your view is technically outside the confessional limitations of this board:



> Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, *man-stealing*, and receiving anything that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust; oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depredation; engrossing commodities to enhance the price; unlawful callings, and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; covetousness; inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods; distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them; envying at the prosperity of others; as likewise idleness, prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate, and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.


----------



## Grimmson

Since you started the thread I will respond to each question.


irresistible_grace said:


> I am aware that you are unwilling to respond anymore on this thread but as the individual who began the thread I do have a few sincere questions for you. First of all, (a) Do you have children?


First it may be good to indicate my background. I was a math teacher in the state of Arizona for several years. I had a set of standards I had to obey by in order to teach, standards that if I did not keep I could potentially be sued and lose my job. As both a teacher and a tutor I have seen negative and positive aspects to homeschooling; whereby parents who did not know what they were do really confused their children to such things as rules for adding/subtracting or multiplying/dividing integers. My first year teaching I also taught science, besides math; Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and generic science class called earth science (including topics ranging from geology to astronomy). So for a given year I could have up to 120+ kids; not counting students that I tutor on the side. I do not have children of my own, but I have seen educating young people as more then just a job, but a calling. Kids see that passion for the subject and are attracted to it, which is why I accidentally started a free high school tutoring session during the lunch hour. I always invited my students to come in if they needed help at any time, whether it be before school, after school, or during the lunch hour if they needed extra help. Anyway other students form different math classes started to come in for help. The point of the story is that even though I may not have biological children. I have a genuine concern for their educational growth and well being. I have seen to many bad teachers as a tutor who let poor students just walk away and fail because of the issue of time. At the end of the day lack of time should never be an excuse for failing a student, you make the time and go into partnership with a child’s parent so that the student can perform at the level that they should; which is why I like the concept of homeschooling because in that context if it is done correctly there is a one to one personal time given to teaching of a subject; which is always a better environment due to a lack of a need of issues regarding classroom management or other classroom distractions. 



irresistible_grace said:


> (b) If yes, do you see your children as covenant children?


As a Baptist, I do not see children as covenant children as a classification. My point is that if one is to call children such then that means you cannot do whatever you want with them and the church as a say in their care, just like they care for your soul. Children under this concept are more then just Christian, but also seen as Christians even though they will be denied the Lord’s Supper until the time of their own examination or confirmation. Regardless of the covenant children category however, I think it is the job of parents to give the level of care that is superior to that of the non-believer, which is to go beyond the standards of a secular education, so that children can be better prepared for life in the secular world and the church. Therefore children will learn the standards of a secular education in the local cultural or political environment that they live, plus the rule of faith from scripture. 



irresistible_grace said:


> (c) At what point is it unlawful for a Christian to teach their children contray to the objective standards of education of the state?



Since states have compulsory laws, and we are citizens under such laws we are mandated for children to attend school. Now in the context of homeschooling that school is the home. Each state has a list of standard objectives for children to reach in their education, including not just math, but also reading. If it has been observed that a child is two or more years behind in the areas of reading, writing, and math of the state standards then something must be done so that the student can catch up. That does not mean ripping the child out of the home, but instead the parent must provide some means for the child to catch up. These standards are not arbitrary in nature, and are typically developed by seasoned teachers with considerations in place of child development by request of the state. The standards are typically basic in nature and follow a general logical pattern. One can apply a classical education technique and still be teaching to the standards, this can be observed through standardized testing. Now the point where it becomes unlawful for Christian not to teach their children the standards is if their not implementing that time to teach; it is a violation of the law based on the compulsory laws. It would be unwise to ignore the standards for several reasons. The first being that they have more expertise with teaching children then you do. Secondly, there is the goal in mind to prepare the majority of them in college; which is one of the goaling aspects of the standards. Third, so that students will be well equipped as thinking individuals to be profitable members of society, which in part would also make them good citizens. Fourth, so that nothing can hinder the student from that desired success; so that they are able to run that business or work at that mechanics shop, or to follow any career path through a university setting, or even as an active member of the military. A good teacher knows the answer to the question on why you need to learn this or that. 



irresistible_grace said:


> (d) Where does one draw the line? And, (e) Who draws that line? To the best of my knowledge, the judicial branch of our government has pretty much deemed it unlawful to teach (as Science) that "all things" were created "In the Beginning" by the One True and Living God of Biblical Christianity while simultaneously considering Evolution (in regard to the ORIGIN of the species) to be Science.



Is there prejudice towards certain aspects of the state and judicial branch? The answer is yes. However if one looks at say strand 4 of the Arizona academic standards for science regarding evolution, particularly P.O. 5 you would see that evolution being called a theory in the H.S. standards. Therefore it should be taught as that, a theory. When I taught on this subject I gave the standard arguments and then showed the major problems with whatever I was talking about at the time. I shouldn’t get in trouble for it because I wasn’t teaching creation science, but was instead using material that I developed from respected secular scientists (non intelligent design scientists) that was showing the problems of the theory of evolution. One goal I remembered having was communicating the major difference between natural selection and the theory of evolution, which sometimes students combine as the same thing, which is not the case. I also remember addressing in entire session to information theory in genes and how information is lost. Now I admit there a slight of hand going by where the expectation is to teach evolution, which I did, and then giving students the tools by my own example to dismantle the theory, which as a parent you can do as well. I did this all in the name of critical thinking and it was all in my lesson plan, which I did not get in trouble for. As a teacher you just need to be careful how you do it. It is not my job in a public school to teach to any religion, but in a homeschooling environment you can. Now in the case of evolution, I think homeschoolers should learn the theory in accordance to the standards and then do what I did and dismantle the theory based on science and not religion that way students can be better prepared to address the issue when they go to college and sit in on their Bio 101 class. If I quoted from the bible in a science class then I would not be teaching science, but religion. However one can still use the framework of presuppositions of scripture, namely that “in the beginning God created” and still be teaching science. Just in a secular science class I cannot say who created or the attributes of the one doing the creating, because in the eyes of the state such is the responsibility of parents to teach religion. It is for this reason homeschooling is in fact better because of a fuller organic approach to education, instead of a focused area of study in which I did. In homeschooling everything can come together in a nice package, because not only do you teach the science but the religion to fill in the gaps of science. The standards establishes create a baseline and expectation for your children to reach and excel over through the methodological process of the parent. The line was drawn by the state through other educators and then passed on to the parents to practice wisdom, but not abuse. For it is through abuse of the system that more lines are drawn by the state for the sake of the child so that the child could receive a fair education, which is that child’s right by federal law. 



irresistible_grace said:


> (f) Is it therefore unlawful to teach my children from the only rule God has given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him?



If all you teach as a homeschooler is the word of God the answer is yes, it is unlawful. Children need more then just scripture to live in a world of common grace. They need to know their history, they need to know how to problem solve, not just repeat a catechism question or have a portion of scripture memorized. In the biology class that I taught if on an exam someone said a bat is a bird (Lev. 11:13-19) instead of a mammal I would mark them wrong. They need to know how to interact in this fallen world and scripture alone is not efficient. Scipture will not teach you how to be a plumber, it is not going to teach you to solve for an unknown in an equation, it will not teach you why the American Revolution took place, or about electricity. What scripture teaches is all we need to know in matters of faith and the practice of that faith through the law and the gospel. Children need to learn how to enact and engage the world in which they live in an educated fashion. We are not to purposely allow for ourselves as a faith to be ignorant of the outside world, particularly if we are to share the hope that is within us. Since this is the case then we should to the best of our ability learn and teach literature/reading, writing, math, science, logic, history, and so on. If all one does is just talk about scripture and not the various disciplines and categories, with the difference of separation of categories between them at the appropriate times then one is not preparing their child for the world, which in part the responsibility of parents, not just teaching the faith. Therefore you are not just going against the State, but also by God in his common grace. I have seen what happens when children are not taught appropriately by means of methodology or by being taught false information, they get discouraged in the subject, break down, and refused to learn. Misinformation is the bain of education and can do more harm then good, resulting possibly in denying the faith, which I have seen from people who grew up in the church and after the second semester of college leave the faith. Therefore one has to be extremely careful in how one teaches and what you teach has consequences; it does not matter if it is in the classroom or in a home, there are always consequences which is why careful treading must be done in regards to various subjects. And if one is careful and teaches appropriately then there should be no fear for the child, for God has been glorified by what was taught and one can enjoy the truthfulness and riches of God’s blessing through imparted knowledge with faith in the gospel.



irresistible_grace said:


> (g) If the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), at what point is does a child have rights? 28 days after birth? At birth? At conception? (h) Where does one draw the line? (i) Who draws that line? When you stated your reason for leaving you said, "we are now moving away from the point of the thread" but the thread ask the question, "To homeschool OR not to Homeschool?" and from where I sit it doesn't appear that we have moved away from that point much if any! So, I'll ask you personally...



I do not care what form of government one is in, every government has the responsibility from God to care for all their citizens. Now everyone born in the U.S. is a citizen, and everyone in the world has the right to be born. Now the point of this thread is not to deal with the issue if an infant is a citizen at the moment of birth or 28 days later. I am not going to deal with that, because at the age in which children start school they are citizens by law and that is what I am addressing. Now should infants be protected by law, you bet and there are several laws out there for their protection such as Public Law 107-207 ( also called the Born Alive Protection Act of 2002). There are even cases in various states in the past that I have heard of double murder charges in the case in which pregnant women were murdered. But such talk in not addressing the issue of who should educate children and that discussion of should be a citizen is for another thread. Within the borders of the State, the State is responsible for the protection of their citizen from murder, bodily harm, theft, and so on. The State for a long time now has been involved in education and created in each individual state compulsory laws to fight against truancy (which parents are punished through a fine to the city) and to restrict working conditions for children (such as in a factory or mine) for the sake of their own well being and for the purpose of training for a trade eventually (based on the English Poor Laws of the 16th century and later reflected by the colonies, such as the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1642). The first compulsory law for Massachusetts as a state didn’t occur I think until about 210 years later. 

In Romans 13, we are called to be good citizens and remember that pagan governing authority that Paul was talking about was appointed by God. We are to obey these authorities and not promote ignorant foolish behavior based on our Christian liberty and instead we are called to honor such authorities. We see this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Titus 3:1. Part of being good citizens is obeying the laws that the State as issued, unless the State asks you to sin such as denying that Christ came in the flesh and is God. But that not what going on here in regards to education. If the state requires that a child should receive so much instruction then that child should receive that instruction as being good citizens; in fact go further then the bare boned standards of the state such as teaching sowing or cooking (what I call applied chemistry) which can show real life applications of what is taught in school without the hindrance of keeping your eye on 34 more young ones at the same time. This is a good work and one that the state would not reject you for it. 



irresistible_grace said:


> (j) Should I homeschool my covenant children assuming, if I don't meet the standards of education (that are becoming more hostile to the Word of God) of the state, that God will take the "blessing [the children He has intrusted to me] away by some means (such as the state)?" OR (k) Should I not homeschool my covenant children in order to avoid causing a war against the state?


There is an assumption being applied here and that is that the standards are hostile against the Word of God. They are only hostile if you make them hostile, they are so bared boned in content and objective it almost impossible to be hostile to them unless you cannot perform the basic objective. If you cannot perform the basic objective then you need to get someone who can. If you do not understand basic algebra then when your child gets to that point what will you do? If you do not know something then pass that responsibility on to someone else or teach yourself quickly. If you cannot teach yourself a particular subject then you have no business to teach your child that, and in fact can do more harm then good. Therefore one must prepare ahead time so that they are able to teach their children the basics as a good foundation and be able to build upon on that foundation. Homeschooling you child is a wisdom issue, if you can do it then please do it, but let me warn you it may require large amount of work and time. I think to some degree we have romanticized homeschooling and placed homeschooling as a new law for Christians to keep if they are in the faith. You do have options and I think the standards work best as a guide and a benchmark to where your child is at, that is really what they were originally designed for. Do not be afraid to ask for help with professional teachers in your church for ideas or lesson plan approaches. I would also recommend getting your husband involved as well, because it would not be just your activity alone. Have him teach were you are weak and vise versa. The standards are not that difficult to keep and could be judged by some kind of physical means, such as an oral test or written examination. Education should be presented in a structural and disciplined process, which the standards assist with. 


austinww said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We were not discussing whether Christian children should be educated (all grant this), but whether it is a grievous sin for the state to kidnap children (the Bible and the Westminster Larger Catechism call this "man-stealing," and both label it a great sin against God). You have expressed support for this practice and that is the subject under discussion. I urge you to thoughtfully reconsider your stated agreement with this wickedness on the part of the state, which grows more common every year.
> 
> I do agree with your decision to discontinue this discussion, since in light of WLC Q. 142, your view is technically outside the confessional limitations of this board:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, *man-stealing*, and receiving anything that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust; oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depredation; engrossing commodities to enhance the price; unlawful callings, and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; covetousness; inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods; distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them; envying at the prosperity of others; as likewise idleness, prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate, and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Austin in regards to your response, I do not see taking a child from an abusive home as man-stealing. If you think it is appropriate and a parent’s right to repeatedly kick their children in the face (spanking a kid’s rear a different story), or to burn them with cigarettes, or allowing a seven year old to wander around a house covered with feces without consequence from the state, whereby the child is removed from such an environment then I ask you please to reconsider. Please request to adopt such a child and care for him or her. If anyone thinks the behavior I just listed is appropriate not only hurts their Christian witness, but also is guilty of the same commandment as the parent conducting the behavior against God and the child. To save the child is a practice of love and to promote social stability by the state. Many here probably have never seen an abused child because of their Christian bubble, I have in this world and it breaks my heart. I accept that it is a shame that an organization like CPS exist, but they exist because of the depravity of parents towards their kids. 

Now in regards to education. If children are two or three or more years behind in were they should be at developmentally (such as reading) then the question that needs to be asked is why. Is there a learning disability? What and how is the parent teaching? Can anyone you know help you? What can the state do to help? If the parent refuses to get help, what should be done? If a child is not being educated then, whether it is through neglect or incompetence, the law has been broken and there must be consequences for that. 

I think part of the issue is that we are too individualistic. The I and my mentality many times promotes sin. We struggle with the idea of authority, trying to collect as much authority as we can attain for ourselves. When it comes to raising children it is not by the individual parents alone. There must be in place a means to keep parents accountable so that they will do what they must. Therefore a union is established between the family and state, who biblically should be protecting the innocent and carries with it the force of law. There must be a balance between these two entities so that justice is done, no man has the right to exercise personal justice, which makes it difficult if grandparents or uncles or others within the family contexts sees what going on and does nothing. Now there is the danger of the government abusing the power, but does not argue against the need for balance between the two. Just like lords of land must answer to the king in olden days, so must the father in regards to the lack of justice in his own realm. If we see abuse or the signs of abuse taking place and the problems that exist in a home are not addressed then we participate in the sin and do damage against the child; along with sinning against Almighty God, who will one day judge the hearts of all mankind. The WLC is not speaking of a case of abuse against a child, and they are not going to be sold into slavery or used as a slave by the State. Therefore this is a misapplication of man-stealing. Children are not possessions that we own, but instead entrusted to us by God to be nurtured. If non-Christians or the state desire for the good of children then why shouldn’t we? We should and we must practice that in wisdom.

Now I wish you all a good day and I will return to the board probably Friday night.


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## Micah Everett

Grimmson said:


> There is an assumption being applied here and that is that the standards are hostile against the Word of God.


 
I don't believe the prevailing assumption here is that the standards themselves are hostile to the Word of God. Rather, the assumption is that an educational environment that is not explicitly founded upon and permeated by God's Word will be, in effect, hostile to that Word, whether implicitly or explicitly. Those here that promote homeschooling and/or Christian schooling (including myself, a public university professor) do so not because they believe that the state standards are flawed in their entirety, but because they believe that state education builds upon a faulty foundation (humanism) and proceeds toward a faulty goal (individual success--or, more likely, "good citizens"), in spite of the "nuggets" of truth that are to be found in the curriculum. Christian education, when properly done, builds upon a firm foundation (Christ and His Word), and proceeds toward what is ultimately the only worthy goal ("to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever"). To do any less is necessarily viewed as a violation of the biblical injunctions to parents regarding the upbringing of their children (cf. Deuteronomy 6, Ephesians 6, etc.), though I think most of us would allow for _rare_ circumstances in which God has providentially placed a family in a situation where there are no educational options but public school. 

The question is, are we raising our children for the glory of God, or for the good of the state? When held in a right relationship to one another, these two goals are not in conflict. Too often, though, the state seeks to overstep its bounds, and in the end "we must obey God rather than men."

(Back to my usual lurking. Great thread!)


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## au5t1n

Grimmson said:


> Austin in regards to your response, I do not see taking a child from an abusive home as man-stealing. If you think it is appropriate and a parent’s right to repeatedly kick their children in the face (spanking a kid’s rear a different story), or to burn them with cigarettes, or allowing a seven year old to wander around a house covered with feces without consequence from the state, whereby the child is removed from such an environment then I ask you please to reconsider.



We have gone over this. Injuring a child is illegal regardless of whether the child is one's own, and should be prosecuted as a crime. If both parents are imprisoned for this or another crime, then the child should go to a relative. This is irrelevant to whether children may be removed from their parents because of what they were or were not being taught. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that family can rightfully be separated because the government disapproves of what the child is/is not taught. It is, therefore, state-sanctioned kidnapping.


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## TimV

Micah you should lurk less.


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## irresistible_grace

Grimmson said:


> I will return to the board probably Friday



Mr. Jolley,
When you do return to the board, know that I am grateful for your response. 
God Bless,
Jess

---------- Post added at 11:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------




Micah Everett said:


> I don't believe the prevailing assumption here is that the standards themselves are hostile to the Word of God. Rather, the assumption is that an educational environment that is not explicitly founded upon and permeated by God's Word will be, in effect, hostile to that Word, whether implicitly or explicitly.





---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------




Grimmson said:


> I think it is the job of parents to give the level of care that is superior to that of the non-believer, which is to go beyond the standards of a secular education, so that children can be better prepared for life in the secular world and the church.



I couldn't agree more!


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## Scot

This sermon is well worth taking the time to listen to.

SermonAudio.com - The Crisis of Education CR1001


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## kvanlaan

> I don't believe the prevailing assumption here is that the standards themselves are hostile to the Word of God. Rather, the assumption is that an educational environment that is not explicitly founded upon and permeated by God's Word will be, in effect, hostile to that Word, whether implicitly or explicitly.



I see that 'ditto' and raise you four dittoes and call the hand that implies otherwise.


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## SueS

I hsed my daughter from 6th through 12th grade using a modified classical approach and curriculum I put together myself. Her senior year was the most expensive, about $1,700, but that included an on-line course through The Potter's School, voice lessons, and riding lessons in addition to regular curriculum. It WAS a lot of work, but well worth it.

Now she is a mom with four children and is in her second year of hsing her soon to be 6yo daughter with her 4yo son sitting in on a casual basis. She has been using My Father's World with truly impressive results and intends to use it again next year for her dd's 2nd grade year with a bit of tweaking in the language arts and science departments. My Father's World is very affordable, for the most part literature based, and hands on, which her children love.


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## LaurieBluedorn

I want to address your question of how much will it cost. Educating a child who is under age 10 doesn't need to cost very much at all. You will need to buy a good intensive phonics curriculum, which can cost $50-$100 (I wouldn't spend any more than that). Of course, there is plenty of curriculum which you COULD buy, but you don't need to. Use the library, use the internet, buy used books (there is a strong used homeschooling book market). Here is an article we wrote which might be helpful.


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## he beholds

LaurieBluedorn said:


> I want to address your question of how much will it cost. Educating a child who is under age 10 doesn't need to cost very much at all. You will need to buy a good intensive phonics curriculum, which can cost $50-$100 (I wouldn't spend any more than that). Of course, there is plenty of curriculum which you COULD buy, but you don't need to. Use the library, use the internet, buy used books (there is a strong used homeschooling book market). Here is an article we wrote which might be helpful.



A little off-topic, but could you recommend a good phonics program, please?


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## bill

Grimmson said:


> We live in two kingdoms, citizens of both; therefore what is binding on that school teacher to teach should and must also be binding upon you because that is the standards issued by the state for what your child should be able to know and do.



I agree!!


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## bill

Grimmson said:


> I think it is the job of parents to give the level of care that is superior to that of the non-believer, which is to go beyond the standards of a secular education, so that children can be better prepared for life in the secular world and the church. Therefore children will learn the standards of a secular education in the local cultural or political environment that they live, plus the rule of faith from scripture.





Grimmson said:


> The first being that they have more expertise with teaching children then you do. Secondly, there is the goal in mind to prepare the majority of them in college; which is one of the goaling aspects of the standards. Third, so that students will be well equipped as thinking individuals to be profitable members of society, which in part would also make them good citizens. Fourth, so that nothing can hinder the student from that desired success; so that they are able to run that business or work at that mechanics shop, or to follow any career path through a university setting, or even as an active member of the military. A good teacher knows the answer to the question on why you need to learn this or that.





Grimmson said:


> If all you teach as a homeschooler is the word of God the answer is yes, it is unlawful. Children need more then just scripture to live in a world of common grace. They need to know their history, they need to know how to problem solve, not just repeat a catechism question or have a portion of scripture memorized. In the biology class that I taught if on an exam someone said a bat is a bird (Lev. 11:13-19) instead of a mammal I would mark them wrong. They need to know how to interact in this fallen world and scripture alone is not efficient. Scipture will not teach you how to be a plumber, it is not going to teach you to solve for an unknown in an equation, it will not teach you why the American Revolution took place, or about electricity. What scripture teaches is all we need to know in matters of faith and the practice of that faith through the law and the gospel. Children need to learn how to enact and engage the world in which they live in an educated fashion. We are not to purposely allow for ourselves as a faith to be ignorant of the outside world, particularly if we are to share the hope that is within us. Since this is the case then we should to the best of our ability learn and teach literature/reading, writing, math, science, logic, history, and so on. If all one does is just talk about scripture and not the various disciplines and categories, with the difference of separation of categories between them at the appropriate times then one is not preparing their child for the world, which in part the responsibility of parents, not just teaching the faith. Therefore you are not just going against the State, but also by God in his common grace. I have seen what happens when children are not taught appropriately by means of methodology or by being taught false information, they get discouraged in the subject, break down, and refused to learn. Misinformation is the bain of education and can do more harm then good, resulting possibly in denying the faith, which I have seen from people who grew up in the church and after the second semester of college leave the faith. Therefore one has to be extremely careful in how one teaches and what you teach has consequences; it does not matter if it is in the classroom or in a home, there are always consequences which is why careful treading must be done in regards to various subjects. And if one is careful and teaches appropriately then there should be no fear for the child, for God has been glorified by what was taught and one can enjoy the truthfulness and riches of God’s blessing through imparted knowledge with faith in the gospel.





Grimmson said:


> In Romans 13, we are called to be good citizens and remember that pagan governing authority that Paul was talking about was appointed by God. We are to obey these authorities and not promote ignorant foolish behavior based on our Christian liberty and instead we are called to honor such authorities. We see this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Titus 3:1. Part of being good citizens is obeying the laws that the State as issued, unless the State asks you to sin such as denying that Christ came in the flesh and is God. But that not what going on here in regards to education. If the state requires that a child should receive so much instruction then that child should receive that instruction as being good citizens; in fact go further then the bare boned standards of the state such as teaching sowing or cooking (what I call applied chemistry) which can show real life applications of what is taught in school without the hindrance of keeping your eye on 34 more young ones at the same time. This is a good work and one that the state would not reject you for it.





Grimmson said:


> There is an assumption being applied here and that is that the standards are hostile against the Word of God. They are only hostile if you make them hostile, they are so bared boned in content and objective it almost impossible to be hostile to them unless you cannot perform the basic objective. If you cannot perform the basic objective then you need to get someone who can. If you do not understand basic algebra then when your child gets to that point what will you do? If you do not know something then pass that responsibility on to someone else or teach yourself quickly. If you cannot teach yourself a particular subject then you have no business to teach your child that, and in fact can do more harm then good. Therefore one must prepare ahead time so that they are able to teach their children the basics as a good foundation and be able to build upon on that foundation. Homeschooling you child is a wisdom issue, if you can do it then please do it, but let me warn you it may require large amount of work and time. I think to some degree we have romanticized homeschooling and placed homeschooling as a new law for Christians to keep if they are in the faith. You do have options and I think the standards work best as a guide and a benchmark to where your child is at, that is really what they were originally designed for. Do not be afraid to ask for help with professional teachers in your church for ideas or lesson plan approaches. I would also recommend getting your husband involved as well, because it would not be just your activity alone. Have him teach were you are weak and vise versa. The standards are not that difficult to keep and could be judged by some kind of physical means, such as an oral test or written examination. Education should be presented in a structural and disciplined process, which the standards assist with.





Grimmson said:


> The WLC is not speaking of a case of abuse against a child, and they are not going to be sold into slavery or used as a slave by the State. Therefore this is a misapplication of man-stealing. Children are not possessions that we own, but instead entrusted to us by God to be nurtured. If non-Christians or the state desire for the good of children then why shouldn’t we? We should and we must practice that in wisdom.



Right on!!

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Micah Everett said:


> Too often, though, the state seeks to overstep its bounds,



Name one. And don't use Evolution. Granted Evolution is a ridiculous requirement required by many states, however, either way a child must have some knowledge of the theory. Even a christian child will one day grow up and be faced with evolution in a secular university. And when that day arises if he or she has no knowledge of the subject he or she will be made to be the fool.


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## Notthemama1984

bill said:


> Name one. And don't use Evolution. Granted Evolution is a ridiculous requirement required by many states, however, either way a child must have some knowledge of the theory. Even a christian child will one day grow up and be faced with evolution in a secular university. And when that day arises if he or she has no knowledge of the subject he or she will be made to be the fool.



Sex ed for one. Worldly morals do not match God's standards.


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## Scot

Bill & David, please listen to Dr. Morecraft's sermon. 

............Please!


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## Micah Everett

bill said:


> Name one. And don't use Evolution. Granted Evolution is a ridiculous requirement required by many states, however, either way a child must have some knowledge of the theory. Even a christian child will one day grow up and be faced with evolution in a secular university. And when that day arises if he or she has no knowledge of the subject he or she will be made to be the fool.



You're missing the point. When I said that the state oversteps its bounds, I was not limiting that statement to education. We live in a society in which the state has rejected God and set itself up as the supreme authority to which we citizens owe ultimate fealty in all areas of life. 

The problem, again, with state education is not that it has poor standards (some are relatively good, some are bad, some are ridiculous, some are scary), but that it assumes that our children belong to the state more than to God or to their parents, and are to be educated in the way that best benefits the state rather than in the way that best glorifies God. I don't have to "name one," nor can I--every facet of education is faulty if Christ is not magnified in it.

Bill and David, you are missing the forest for the trees, arguing about minutiae of educational standards when the real problem is that the entire apparatus of state education is misdirected. Yes, our children should be well-educated. Yes, they need to be exposed to the theory of evolution and other faulty teachings of men so that they will be prepared to interact with and refute these as adults. Yes, there should even be meaningful standards, but to place the power to establish and enforce those standards into the hands of the state is to grant unto the state a role and a power which God did not give it. We believe that to subject our children to an educational environment in which Christ is not magnified to be an abdication of our God-given responsibilities as parents.

God owns our children, not us, and certainly not the state, and God demands that our children be taught His ways "when you lie down, and when you rise up;" that they be reared "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." The state educational standards are flawed not because they are all bad, but because in them God is ignored, and the state becomes a usurper of His authority. I am thankful that we still live in a society where the state has not assumed the power to force us to sacrifice our children to Molech by sending them to public schools. God forbid that we should ever be robbed of this right.



Scot said:


> Bill & David, please listen to Dr. Morecraft's sermon.
> 
> ............Please!



You really should listen to it.


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## Scot

> every facet of education is faulty if Christ is not magnified in it





Micah,

I agree with Tim. You should lurk less.


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## TimV

Grimmson said:


> There needs to be accountability



? But who watches the guardians? Do you have any idea how ironic that is coming from a public school teacher, especially given that in every single study ever done homeschoolers do better in reading, science and math? You've been given more money and resources than at any time in the history of mankind, and the US public school system is an international joke.


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## au5t1n

The bottom line is, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge" (Prov. 1:7). Undertaking to teach a child knowledge that is not founded in and understood in light of the fear of the LORD, is building on sand and only produces fools. Time has proven it and will prove it again. Lord, have mercy on us.


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## kvanlaan

> ? But who watches the guardians? Do you have any idea how ironic that is coming from a public school teacher, especially given that in every single study ever done homeschoolers do better in reading, science and math? You've been given more money and resources than at any time in the history of mankind, and the US public school system is an international joke.



Tim, these are important points, not to be discounted. And the result _should_ be spectacular, but it is simply shameful. But the genesis of guardian's system is the real kicker. When the guardians openly profess to be atheists, we know for fact that the end game is self-seeking control of the issue of your loins. _We_ are the appointed guardians, as _we_ profess Christ, and _we_ have been given authority by God to raise them as _He_ has laid out. Diversion from that is indeed punishable by law, but the foundation remains inassailable. Nowhere in this covenant do I see any place for Rome to train my child's mind. It is not there, no matter how twisted the logic.


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## LaurieBluedorn

Recommending an intensive phonics curriculum (by intensive, I don't mean that it is difficult for the child, but that it is REAL phonics)

There are several to choose from:

TATRAS
Alpha-Phonics
Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons
Sing, Spell, Read, and Write
Phonics Museum
Phonics Pathways

...plus many more. Some of these are expensive. If you're a millionaire, buy the expensive one, but the cheaper ones are just as good.

Don Potter's site is the best for phonics information.


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## Elizabeth

Two-thumbs up for Alpha-Phonics. Used the same copy for all four kids. Wonderfully simple and elegant to use. I have my copy(held together with masking tape!) in our 'memory' chest. I hope to pass it on, or use it with a grand-child, someday.


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## JBaldwin

I've been looking at phonics programs lately due to the fact that my eldest "couldn't" learn to read using the phonics programs I tried. I've since learned through a little bit of study that the best phonics porgrams are those like _Teach your children to read in 100 Lessons_ or _The Writing Road to Reading_ which teach phonics without pictures. If you have a very visual child, the pictures used in most phonics programs out there confuse them.

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By the way, those programs are very inexpensive.


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## LawrenceU

A hearty, 'AMEN!' to the phonics programs without pictures. The pictures make it very tough for visual learners and really do nothing to help others. They were the first step in dumbing down curricula according to a professor I had back in the Dark Ages.


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## Montanablue

Another thumbs up for Alpha-phonics. I am the oldest and was the first to learn how to read. My parents made the mistake of teaching me to sight read, then realized their mistake, and used Alpha-phonics with me. I HATED having to sound out words, because I could already read the children's books we already had by sight. So, definitely start with phonics. Obviously, your kid is goign to do some sight-reading anyway, but learning how the words are built and how to sound them out is really necessary, I think.


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## Augusta

Sounding out words is soooo important to language processing in the brain. If you want to combat potential learning disabilities early you would do well to use a good phonics program. Speech therapy is all about undoing the huge mistake in education of dropping phonics and moving to picture-based reading.


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## CatherineL

he beholds said:


> A little off-topic, but could you recommend a good phonics program, please?



Jess, We've been using Explode the Code for phonics- my Kindergartener just finished book 1. We did Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons to start with, then around lesson 70 switched over to Bob Books (just because dd didn't like reading the long passages from the 100 lessons book). Then we've been doing the Explode the Code along with the Sonlight grade 1 readers. Its pretty cheap - about $6-8 a book (they're consumable workbooks) on Amazon and most homeschool supply places. They also have a beginner series for teacher letter sounds - Get Ready for the Code - but I haven't tried that. I liked the focus on letter sounds and blending that 100 lessons had. I'm just starting my 4 year old with 100 Lessons, too. I've run into a lot of people online who have used the 100 Lessons --> Bob Books ---> Explode the Code with easy readers progression. My 6 year old is reading at a second grade level now, so its working pretty well for us so far.


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## TexanRose

Another vote for "Teach Your Child To Read in 100 Easy Lessons." I've known a lot of people who have used this book with success. I only did the first few lessons with my oldest, but it was enough for him to get the concept of blending letter sounds together, which is something he hadn't understood prior to that. The only reason I didn't continue with the book is that he took off on his own at that point, so I guess you would say he is a partially self-taught reader. He is now six and will read pretty much anything.


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