# USA residents only: Pledge of Allegiance



## Romans922 (Aug 3, 2016)

Do you say the pledge of allegiance (if others are saying it)? Why or why not?

Do you put your hand over your heart? Why or why not?


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## Parakaleo (Aug 3, 2016)

(1) No. It's a false vow. Our nation is neither under God, nor indivisible, nor is there anything close to liberty and justice for all. Think of the unborn.

(2) No. It isn't honoring to those in authority to signal that kind of agreement or solidarity with a nation that denies the Lordship of Christ.

The believer's "argument" to all governments everywhere should be, "I'm the best servant you can have, because I _don't_ worship you. I honor you more than anyone by faithfully keeping the commandments of King Jesus in serving you." I don't think vows and pledges to idolatrous charters and symbols advances that argument.


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## chuckd (Aug 3, 2016)

Romans922 said:


> Do you say the pledge of allegiance (if others are saying it)? Why or why not?
> 
> Do you put your hand over your heart? Why or why not?



I say it if others are as a sign of fidelity to my country. Same with the national anthem. I put my hand over my heart as a tradition. I don't think I've said the pledge since elementary school though.


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## Parakaleo (Aug 3, 2016)

Parakaleo said:


> Our nation is neither under God...


Well, we are of course under God, as all nations are. However, it would be a lie to say that we as a people see ourselves as accountable to Him.


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## hammondjones (Aug 3, 2016)

I do not say the Pledge of Allegiance. First of all, I don't even know what it means to swear allegiance to a flag. And, as for the nation, for which it stands, I guess I've spent too much time living overseas to put America on that kind of pedestal, so it wouldn't be the truth. America is where I live, for now, but I'm just sojourning here.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 3, 2016)

I do not say it, or put my hand over my heart, but do stand quietly (same for the national anthem). 

Some of my reasons are already stated, but one that is oft forgotten is the socialist background of the pledge and the self-same purpose of the author who wrote the pledge. 

Likewise with the "Christian Flag" they are both a residue of an ironically unconservative and Marxist part of American history.


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## Romans922 (Aug 3, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> the socialist background of the pledge and the self-same purpose of the author who wrote the pledge.



Shed some more light on this please. Where did you learn/read this?


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## kodos (Aug 3, 2016)

There is a good case to be made that reciting the pledge is a breach of the Third Commandment. America has not pledged herself to the Triune God, and until that is the case - it is an idolatrous "god" the pledge is made towards. The god of materialism, atheism, polytheism, self-advancement, abortion, greed, unjust wars, etc.

I also cannot say such a pledge without mental reservation; if the will of the Republic are against the will of Christ (and it is increasingly so), my allegiance is to Him who gave Himself up for me.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 3, 2016)

Romans922 said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > the socialist background of the pledge and the self-same purpose of the author who wrote the pledge.
> ...



Here is a basic background on it. As this article makes clear not only was Bellamy a socialist and a liberal baptist minister, but the pledge was changed in the mid-1920's to assuage anti-immigrant fervor in the United States. Likewise, and again ironically, the pledge was changed in the mid-50's as an anti-communist move, not for some altruistic and covenanting desire. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-man-who-wrote-the-pledge-of-allegiance-93907224/?no-ist


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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 3, 2016)

I have wrestled with this one. When I go to my local police precinct's monthly community meeting, it is required, or at least one would markedly stand out not to do so. This is the pledge:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I have no problem pledging a citizen's allegiance "to the Republic" for which the flag stands—this being, purportedly, a Constitutional Republic, a nation governed by the overriding Constitution and not individuals' dictates—and which "ideal" system of governance is perhaps better than others in the world today. In practice this is not lived up to, in fact is belied regularly—but as long as the principles stated are allowed to stand in this land, I can say the pledge.

If at any time this or any other pledge pits me against the word of my God I will have to refuse it.


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## Edward (Aug 3, 2016)

At sporting events, I have generally taken to standing silently with my hand over my heart - it's not the time or the place to engage in constitutional law debates. I have no problem affirming the various oaths to uphold the Constitution that I've been required to take, and promising to defend it against all enemies, foreign* and domestic.* I expect that there may be some on here that couldn't do that. 




> I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 3, 2016)

This is the RPCNA "Declaratory Oath" that members give when made to give an oath of allegiance for the military, etc...



> "I take this oath, pledging my loyalty and allegiance to my country, but declaring my supreme allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom Almighty God has appointed Ruler of Nations, and expressing my dissent from the Constitution's failure to recognize and to acknowledge the Divine Institution of Civil Government."


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## Natertot (Aug 3, 2016)

For me, the question is whether I can be both a Christian and a patriot. I do not consider the pledge to be to my government, but to the people, culture and way of life that the government is supposed to protect. So, Do I love the people, culture and way of life that give this nation a specific identity? Yes, I would say I do to a certain extent and those things make me American. However, I would second those that say if the pledging to my country is pitted against my God or Christian conscience, I will follow the Lord. As it stands, my country's laws allows me to worship and believe freely the Christian faith, and for that I am grateful.


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## kodos (Aug 3, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> This is the RPCNA "Declaratory Oath" that members give when made to give an oath of allegiance for the military, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> > "I take this oath, pledging my loyalty and allegiance to my country, but declaring my supreme allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom Almighty God has appointed Ruler of Nations, and expressing my dissent from the Constitution's failure to recognize and to acknowledge the Divine Institution of Civil Government."



Very good reminder. Without this kind of reservation, what happens to your vow when the Republic deems the Church a "domestic enemy"?


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## Edward (Aug 3, 2016)

kodos said:


> Without this kind of reservation, what happens to your vow when the Republic deems the Church a "domestic enemy"?



First, it strikes me that the reservation comes mighty close to expression of a mental reservation, which is specifically disavowed in the oath itself. Seems like some mighty fine slicing is needed to assert that the two statements are consistent. 

Second, the oath isn't to the individuals who issue executive orders or judicial fiats, it is to the Constitution itself. Since the determination that the Church is a domestic enemy would be contra-Constitutional, it can be freely opposed via the First and Second Amendments while fully honoring one's oath.


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## Andres (Aug 3, 2016)

No and No.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 3, 2016)

It is proper to express proximate, but never ultimate, allegiance to one's country. There are Christians who can in good conscience say the pledge and not believe that they are in any way compromising their ultimate allegiance and others who cannot. 

Besides all that, however, the origin of the pledge is connected to the marketing of flags. This historical fact renders the pledge far less noble than it appears to be (or many think that it is). Additionally, the purpose of the pledge involves enforcing the idea of union over against any who might wish to retain a conscientious right of secession. 

Thus there are a variety of reasons that persons might wish to refrain from saying the POA. I am not convinced, however, by the argument that saying the pledge is _ ipso facto_ wrong. I do not think, in other words, that saying the pledge is inherently sinful. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

The more important question--the one Edward raises--is taking oaths of office. Again, I believe that these can be properly taken by Christians. I do not believe that these are the equivalent of burning incense to the genius of the emperor, as was ordered under Decius in 250 A.D. and if anyone here is equating oaths of office to that (or even the rather trivial POA) that's another discussion. 

Peace,
Alan


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## JoannaV (Aug 3, 2016)

I can't remember if my husband said the pledge when we went to our county's board of supervisors meeting. I'm thinking he did put his hand on his heart though, maybe. I can't even remember if I stood or sat! (As an alien, I certainly did not speak nor place my hand on my heart, but I can't remember whether I stood. Perhaps we were already stood? There was a prayer.)

Our children will not say the pledge, unless they are older and choose to do so.
This thread is vaguely interesting to me, because at times I have considered asking y'all your views on the oath of allegiance for citizenship. So far, that has prevented me from becoming a US citizen.

The first time I ever thought I could maybe do it was during Obama's speech at the DNC.


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## Edward (Aug 3, 2016)

JoannaV said:


> oath of allegiance for citizenship.



For reference purposes

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." 

fn. With appropriate evidence you may be able to obtains waivers as to the combatant and non-combatant clauses, or the phrase "so help me God".


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## Edward (Aug 3, 2016)

Getting back to the issue raised in the original post, perhaps some would find a salute rather than a pledge a little more palatable. Here is an example of that form:

"I salute the Confederate flag with affection, reverence, and undying devotion to the Cause for which it stands."


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## Jack K (Aug 3, 2016)

Yes, I willingly say the pledge as a loyal citizen who desires to work for the betterment of my country. In most people's minds, the pledge implies no more than that. Should there be a conflict, God comes first. Not a problem.


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## TylerRay (Aug 4, 2016)

Vaughn Hamilton, Ruling Elder at Brainerd Hills Presbyterian Church in Chattanooga, did an excellent two-part Sabbath School series on this while I was a member there. He makes a case against the use of the pledge.

Part 1
Part 2


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## PreservedKillick (Aug 4, 2016)

As an aside, the hand over the heart is far preferable to the original salute.

http://www.nww2m.com/2012/06/i-pledge-allegiance/


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## Edward (Aug 4, 2016)

PreservedKillick said:


> http://www.nww2m.com/2012/06/i-pledge-allegiance/



The museum needs to learn how to use the spell checker on their word processor. "ammendments "

I recall a trip to rural Mexico in the mid-1980s where we went past a school one morning, and the school children were in the courtyard giving a stiff armed salute to the Mexican flag. On the other hand, it's a shame that the Americans in effect allowed Hitler to dictate how we salute the flag more than 70 years after his death.


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## Warren (Aug 4, 2016)

It was always too early in the morning for me to wrestle with the pledge. I just said it. I say a lot of things without thinking them all the way through... I need grace.

I once thought about enlisting in the FFL. Wonder what that pledge looks like...


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## jwithnell (Aug 5, 2016)

> Additionally, the purpose of the pledge involves enforcing the idea of union over against any who might wish to retain a conscientious right of secession.


Bless you dear brother 

I do generally see the pledge as expressing my fealty to my nation and her constitution. With kids especially, I believe it is important to point them toward something bigger than themselves and to understsnd many have given their all to form and preserve this nation, assuming these same children are being pointed foremost to God.


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## Romans922 (Aug 5, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I have been debating whether or not to allow my son to take part in Trail Life and I know they do the pledge at each meeting. Trail Life is a Christian version of Boy Scouts.


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## JimmyH (Aug 5, 2016)

Of course we said the pledge, along with the Lord's Prayer, every school day when I was a youngster. I hadn't been in a situation where I had to say the pledge until only recently. My condo association meetings recite the pledge of allegiance, hand over heart, gazing at the flag. To be honest I didn't think of the implications from a Biblical point of view. I personally will continue to participate in the pledge at our infrequent condo meetings. God knows the heart, and I am not being untruthful, nor idolatrous.


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## jwithnell (Aug 5, 2016)

If we had a Trails program locally that was Christ-centered, we'd have our boys there in a heartbeat. All the "patriotic stuff" in scouting really encourages the boys to think beyond themselves, to respect authority, and to avoid the sneering condescension that has become so common place since the 60s. They just need to know they are citizens of God's kingdom first.


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## Romans922 (Aug 6, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> If we had a Trails program locally that was Christ-centered, we'd have our boys there in a heartbeat. All the "patriotic stuff" in scouting really encourages the boys to think beyond themselves, to respect authority, and to avoid the sneering condescension that has become so common place since the 60s. They just need to know they are citizens of God's kingdom first.



Yeah and it may give me opportunity as a Pastor to pray and perhaps teach the Bible to those who are not reformed. 

Trail Life seems to be very encouraging of fathers participating with their sons.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheOldCourse (Aug 7, 2016)

Taking a pledge while recognizing that it is only applicable insofar as it remains lawful before God is not a mental reservation in the sense proscribed by the standards as it is simply of the nature of any legitimate vow. Lawful limitations supposed, explicitly or implicitly, which do not falsify the oath are not mental reseverations. Mental reservations references the Jesuistical defense of equivocating on an oath to escape the plain meaning of it, for instance if a someone asks you to swear that Peter is not home and you swear "Peter is not" while mentally understanding oneself to be swearing "She is not eating" (this was Turretin's example to make the difference clear). 

Now if it's apparant that those encouraging you to swear clearly understand the oath of one as ultimate obligation over against conscience and religion rather than proximate and that is clear to you, that would be a problem. I don't believe that even the most godless Magistrates in the nation today take the pledge in that sense, however.

The pledge seems to me much more palatable than the Burgher Oath of the 18th century and yet many worthy divines such as Ebenezer Erskine, James Fisher, and John Brown of Haddington were unwilling to pronounce that oath unlawful (despite at least Brown having some personal doubts about it).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andrew P.C. (Aug 7, 2016)

No and no.

My reasons are simple: they are violations of the third commandment.



> Q. 113. What are the sins forbidden in the third commandment?
> 
> ...all sinful cursings, oaths, vows, and lots; violating of our oaths and vows, if lawful; and fulfilling them, if of things unlawful... (WLC 113)
> 
> ...



And




> Q. 17. What is an OATH?
> 
> A. It is an act of religious worship, in which God is solemnly invoked, or called upon, as a witness for the Confirmation of some matter in doubt.
> 
> ...


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## Dekybo (Aug 7, 2016)

I do not anymore, so no and no.


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