# Did Judas Iscariot cast out the demons?



## earl40

I understand Jesus did give him the authority to do so.

Now how does this passage jive with the statement of Jesus telling the 70 that they should rejoice that their names were recorded in heaven.

""Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

In other words, the 70 were only able to do this because the were in known by God as evidenced by them being successful in casting out demons. Now of course I am assuming Judas Iscariot was not saved and that he did cast out demons. The latter may be where I assume incorrectly?


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## toddpedlar

Judas was reprobate.

Many cast out demons in the name of the Lord who are not known by Him.

[bible]Matthew 7:22-23[/bible]


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## earl40

toddpedlar said:


> Judas was reprobate.
> 
> Many cast out demons in the name of the Lord who are not known by Him.
> 
> [bible]Matthew 7:22-23[/bible]



What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.


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## TimV

> What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.



Earl, you have to let the clear verses interpret the unclear verses. The verse Todd posted is clearly talking about the subject, the verse you posted isn't.

Further, even the people of the day knew that the devil could cast out demons.

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."


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## Amazing Grace

TimV said:


> What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, you have to let the clear verses interpret the unclear verses. The verse Todd posted is clearly talking about the subject, the verse you posted isn't.
> 
> Further, even the people of the day knew that the devil could cast out demons.
> 
> Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Click to expand...


Brother Tim: The issue I have with this understanding is Christ Himself says this could never happen. It would mean a divided kingdom. The false premise Earl has is to equate the power to cast out demons to equal being elect. This is reading into the text which in not there. I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose. Even Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to mimic certain events that Moses and Aaron did.

-----Added 12/13/2009 at 10:56:48 EST-----



earl40 said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judas was reprobate.
> 
> Many cast out demons in the name of the Lord who are not known by Him.
> 
> [bible]Matthew 7:22-23[/bible]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.
Click to expand...


And this herein is where your understanding is not correct Earl.


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## earl40

Amazing Grace said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, you have to let the clear verses interpret the unclear verses. The verse Todd posted is clearly talking about the subject, the verse you posted isn't.
> 
> Further, even the people of the day knew that the devil could cast out demons.
> 
> Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brother Tim: The issue I have with this understanding is Christ Himself says this could never happen. It would mean a divided kingdom. The false premise Earl has is to equate the power to cast out demons to equal being elect. This is reading into the text which in not there. I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose. Even Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to mimic certain events that Moses and Aaron did.
> 
> -----Added 12/13/2009 at 10:56:48 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judas was reprobate.
> 
> Many cast out demons in the name of the Lord who are not known by Him.
> 
> [bible]Matthew 7:22-23[/bible]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What of the 70? The way I read it they were not reprobate as evidenced by the ability to cast out demons. In other words, the evidence that they were elect was having that ability.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And this herein is where your understanding is not correct Earl.
Click to expand...


First of all I would like to thank all who have responded. Now back to the issue.

""If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?" Now is this not a rhetorical question that has an obvious answer Jesus had in mind here? Which is that it can not stand.

So far as Lying signs and wonders being performed by the workers of iniquity is not a possible explanation that they were performing false works as Jesus eludes to by stating "DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

Also this verse....38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."

39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

40"For he who is not against us is for us."

Now from a presupposition I have always had concerning signs. I have always assumed that any REAL miracles could only be performed by God through people to declare Who He is. Of course He can do any miracle He wants all by Himself. One reason is that if Satan could perform miracles we would be assigning something only God can do, namely creation. 

Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people. 

"I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."


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## py3ak

earl40 said:


> I understand Jesus did give him the authority to do so.
> 
> Now how does this passage jive with the statement of Jesus telling the 70 that they should rejoice that their names were recorded in heaven.
> 
> ""Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
> 
> In other words, the 70 were only able to do this because the were in known by God as evidenced by them being successful in casting out demons. Now of course I am assuming Judas Iscariot was not saved and that he did cast out demons. The latter may be where I assume incorrectly?



It seems to me that your post contains its own answer. Christ tells the disciples that a name in heaven is a truer ground of joy than authority over the demons. Having authority over demons is nothing without a name written in heaven. So Judas may have had the first, but he didn't have the second.


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## earl40

py3ak said:


> [
> It seems to me that your post contains its own answer. Christ tells the disciples that a name in heaven is a truer ground of joy than authority over the demons. Having authority over demons is nothing without a name written in heaven. So Judas may have had the first, but he didn't have the second.




So was Judas happy? Not to sound contentions but I am surprised at the responses and a little perplexed. 

As a good friend said "Otherwise we could not point to the miracles of our Lord as testimony to the truth of his words.

But Satan can produce pretty-good knock-off miracles or seeming miracles."


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## py3ak

Judas may have been happy at the time; but his latter end shows that he had no genuine ground of joy. Casting out demons is no sign that your name is written in heaven, and if your name isn't written in heaven, what's the point of anything?


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## BlackCalvinist

earl40 said:


> First of all I would like to thank all who have responded. Now back to the issue.
> 
> ""If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?" Now is this not a rhetorical question that has an obvious answer Jesus had in mind here? Which is that it can not stand.



Earl, have you seen Star Wars Eps. 1-3 ?

The Emperor was behind BOTH the separatist movement with the droid army AND pushing the republic (later the empire) into the clone wars (via the order over a decade earlier to create a clone army).

The emperor wasn't 'divided against himself'. In the end, Nute Gunray and all of the separatists were murdered by Vader. The clone army created to fight against the separatists was turned on the Jedi, even though the clones and Jedi (along with other planets) fought together against the Separatists. In the end, it was all one grand plan by the emperor (Darth Sidius) to take over the republic and turn it into an empire. It worked.

As Cassanova Frankenstein (see the movie Mystery Men for the reference) said "You see ? That is the difference between you and I, Furious. I kill my own men."

In like fashion, Satan has no problem having Mormons and JW's fight theologically against each other and both be completely distracted from the true gospel. He already has Hindus and Muslims doing it in India.

So to have some of Jesus' disciples _who were NOT elect _casting out demons so they can look just like everyone else around them is no big surprise. 



> Now from a presupposition I have always had concerning signs. I have always assumed that any REAL miracles could only be performed by God through people to declare Who He is. Of course He can do any miracle He wants all by Himself. One reason is that if Satan could perform miracles we would be assigning something only God can do, namely creation.



Your presupposition is inaccurate. All you have to do is look at the OT when Moses threw his staff on the ground and it became a snake....Pharoah's guys did it too. That's not a 'creation' issue. Satan has power - lying signs and wonders are _still_ signs and wonders. They are _LYING_ because they don't point people to the true God of creation, but to a false one (Satan). But they _are_ still signs and wonders.

On the other hand, there is a very real possibility that alongside of false teachers with lying signs and wonders, there are TRUE signs and wonders given to the non-elect in the covenant community.

I wrote about this a while ago and reposted it on my blog recently:
Theologically Correct dot Com :: LIVE Your Theology. Blog Archive Making Sense of the Warning Passages Part 1 of 2: Understanding the Covenantal Structure of Scripture


> God pours out His Spirit *covenantally*. That is, He pours out His Spirit and the gifts of His Spirit for the _entire covenant community._ Remember the Hebrews 6 passage ?
> 
> 
> For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. (Heb. 6:7-8)
> 
> 
> Rain causes both thorns and thistles to grow.
> 
> 
> As a miniature example, remember Judas was part of the seventy that were sent out in Luke 10. I think its’ safe to assume that he did miracles right alongside the rest of disciples (remember: no one suspected him as being a traitor till AFTER he betrayed Christ).
> 
> 
> Now to be sure, Judas was _never_ marked off for salvation. Why ? Because He is called the son of perdition. (One who goes off into destruction).
> 
> 
> 
> Remember Jesus’ words about Judas:
> 
> 
> While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
> The son of destruction is lost out of the bunch that Jesus keeps in order that scripture would be fulfilled. So Judas was never marked off for salvation. Never. Judas is a case of a ‘never’ being saved in the first place.
> Jesus answered them, Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil. He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. (John 6:70-71)
> 
> 
> And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me. 19 They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, Is it I? 20 He said to them, It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born. (Mark 14:18-21)
> 
> 
> I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me. (John 13:18)
> 
> 
> and remember Peter’s words afterward in Acts 1:16-17:
> 
> 
> 
> Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.
> 
> 
> So the testimony of scripture is that Judas was _always_ marked off for damnation and to betray Jesus and was _never_ considered as elect. He was counted as a _disciple_, but was never counted (in Christ’s eyes or scripture) as a true believer. Even before John 13:2, Judas was a theif (John 12:4-6). So we can’t say ‘well, it was at the supper when Satan entered his heart that he turned’. He was a ‘never’.
> 
> 
> Thus, he was a part of a smaller covenantal body (the visible disciples), but not part of the true sheep of Jesus (the rest of disciples who were truly converted). He recieved all of the same blessings that the rest of disciples received (signs and wonders during the ministry of Jesus, healing, teaching, protection by Christ during His earthly ministry – Luke 22:35- and so on). But instead of bearing fruit, they bore thorns and thistles.




You write:


> Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people.
> 
> "I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."


The problem with your statement here is that you're assuming that a sign/wonder is proof of election when it is never presented as such in scripture. It would be wise to rethink your presupposition in light of scripture, friend.

Grace and Peace.


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## earl40

py3ak said:


> Judas may have been happy at the time; but his latter end shows that he had no genuine ground of joy. Casting out demons is no sign that your name is written in heaven, and if your name isn't written in heaven, what's the point of anything?



Luke 10:20

20"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." 

Now I do know this is where Jesus was speaking to the 70 but I see no substantive difference in their mission than the 12. Here we have Jesus saying they should rejoice that there names are recorded in heaven as attested by the spirits being subject to them. The proof they were recorded is that the spirits were subject to them.


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## py3ak

Where does the text say that the casting out is proof or attestation of their names being enrolled?


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## Amazing Grace

py3ak said:


> Where does the text say that the casting out is proof or attestation of their names being enrolled?



Exactly. This is what i was trying to say!!

-----Added 12/14/2009 at 11:26:42 EST-----



earl40 said:


> Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people.
> 
> "I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."



Why does it assume this? Was Judas a reprobate or not?


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## earl40

Amazing Grace said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the text say that the casting out is proof or attestation of their names being enrolled?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. This is what i was trying to say!!
> 
> -----Added 12/14/2009 at 11:26:42 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people.
> 
> "I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why does it assume this? Was Judas a reprobate or not?
Click to expand...


OK, where does it say Judas obeyed Jesus when he was sent out?

Also the context of of the 70 rejoicing is given by Jesus stating a fact that they were saved. Now think about this. Is it probable some were not saved (probably) and if they came back and were not rejoicing they would start because Jesus pronounced them saved? Now if they were not rejoicing, the few unsaved ones, and Jesus pronounced them saved as a group do you think they that failed in casting out spirits would rejoice? Of course not. Only the ones who were successful would rejoice. In other words, the *rejoicing ones* believed Jesus pronouncement that their names were recorded and the casting out of spirits verified what Jesus was saying. That is why they call them sign gifts.


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## Amazing Grace

earl40 said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the text say that the casting out is proof or attestation of their names being enrolled?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. This is what i was trying to say!!
> 
> -----Added 12/14/2009 at 11:26:42 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people.
> 
> "I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why does it assume this? Was Judas a reprobate or not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, where does it say Judas obeyed Jesus when he was sent out?
> 
> Also the context of of the 70 rejoicing is given by Jesus stating a fact that they were saved. Now think about this. Is it probable some were not saved (probably) and if they came back and were not rejoicing they would start because Jesus pronounced them saved? Now if they were not rejoicing, the few unsaved ones, and Jesus pronounced them saved as a group do you think they that failed in casting out spirits would rejoice? Of course not. Only the ones who were successful would rejoice. In other words, the *rejoicing ones* believed Jesus pronouncement that their names were recorded and the casting out of spirits verified what Jesus was saying. That is why they call them sign gifts.
Click to expand...


This will be my last post Earl. If you take your thought to its logical conclusion then Christ Himself was deceived because He spoke of Judas as one who would have been better off if he wasn't even born. Although Judas was chosen by our Lord, he was characterized as "a devil" from the beginning in distinction to the other ones He chose who were not so characterized. As a matter of fact, Judas was chosen to betray Jesus as a vessel of destruction. Judas was, from the beginning, 'a devil' and a 'son of perdition', who was never enabled by God to believe in Jesus. (Jn 6:65). Judas like all the other disciples was given the ministry to "cast out devils," perform "miracles, signs and wonders," Judas seemingly possessed the same potential as all the other apostles. (v. 21) ''' "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

(v. 22) Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

(v. 23) Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' '''

Notice that there were those who did real miracles in the name of Jesus who were not saved - just as Judas was not saved.

Apparently, according to Mt 7 those who Jesus never knew unto salvation were unbelievers who did indeed cast out demons and perform miracles in His name. Perhaps because it was done in the name of Jesus and God is sovereign no matter if one is a believer or not. After all we do have perhaps accurate accounting of casting out of demons by Roman Catholic priests who are by and large not believers.

At this very time the Jews had people going around casting out demons. They used various methods and phrases. They were not believers but merchants selling a product (deliverance from a demon). Sometimes those casting out a demon actually used the name of a more powerful demon! And it worked. Well, it kind of worked because the more powerful demon then took over that person! Exactly what Jesus said about a demon leaving but returning when the "room" was cleaned up so nice and bring in more.


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## KMK

earl40 said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the text say that the casting out is proof or attestation of their names being enrolled?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. This is what i was trying to say!!
> 
> -----Added 12/14/2009 at 11:26:42 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now this quote below assumes God directly deceives people.
> 
> "I see no problem with God equipping a reprobate person with any ability He determines to accomplish His purpose."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why does it assume this? Was Judas a reprobate or not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, where does it say Judas obeyed Jesus when he was sent out?
> 
> Also the context of of the 70 rejoicing is given by Jesus stating a fact that they were saved. Now think about this. Is it probable some were not saved (probably) and if they came back and were not rejoicing they would start because Jesus pronounced them saved? Now if they were not rejoicing, the few unsaved ones, and Jesus pronounced them saved as a group do you think they that failed in casting out spirits would rejoice? Of course not. Only the ones who were successful would rejoice. In other words, the *rejoicing ones* believed Jesus pronouncement that their names were recorded and the casting out of spirits verified what Jesus was saying. That is why they call them sign gifts.
Click to expand...


I am not really sure where you are going with this. Your question has been answered several times but, apparently, not to your satisfaction. Perhaps it is time for you to give us your explanation. Do you conclude that Judas' name is written in heaven?


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## py3ak

earl40 said:


> OK, where does it say Judas obeyed Jesus when he was sent out?
> 
> Also the context of of the 70 rejoicing is given by Jesus stating a fact that they were saved. Now think about this. Is it probable some were not saved (probably) and if they came back and were not rejoicing they would start because Jesus pronounced them saved? Now if they were not rejoicing, the few unsaved ones, and Jesus pronounced them saved as a group do you think they that failed in casting out spirits would rejoice? Of course not. Only the ones who were successful would rejoice. In other words, the *rejoicing ones* believed Jesus pronouncement that their names were recorded and the casting out of spirits verified what Jesus was saying. That is why they call them sign gifts.



Earl, I think you're missing the point of what Christ said. The 70 come back: they are happy, because they had exercised authority over demons in the name of Christ. Christ says, "That isn't the real reason to be happy: the true ground of joy is having your name written in heaven." The statement does not say that all of them had their names written in heaven (though as far as I'm aware we don't have any strong reason for thinking that one or more them was reprobate). Christ draws their minds away from the works they'd been enabled to do, to focus on the blessing of salvation.


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## earl40

KMK said:


> I am not really sure where you are going with this. Your question has been answered several times but, apparently, not to your satisfaction. Perhaps it is time for you to give us your explanation. Do you conclude that Judas' name is written in heaven?



Of course Judas name was not written in heaven. As is my point in that a house divided cannot stand and Jesus said that "if they are not against us they are for us" which in context was a similar event of casting out spirits.So was Judas for or against Jesus?

I used the "70 sent ones" to show that casting out spirits was a sign that they were recorded in heaven, to which Jesus said they should rejoice about being recorded.

-----Added 12/14/2009 at 08:09:56 EST-----



py3ak said:


> Earl, I think you're missing the point of what Christ said. The 70 come back: they are happy, because they had exercised authority over demons in the name of Christ. Christ says, "That isn't the real reason to be happy: the true ground of joy is having your name written in heaven." The statement does not say that all of them had their names written in heaven (though as far as I'm aware we don't have any strong reason for thinking that one or more them was reprobate). Christ draws their minds away from the works they'd been enabled to do, to focus on the blessing of salvation.




OK let us run with what you say here.

You are one of the 70 that got back happy because you were able to cast out demons. You see Jesus and He tells you, do not rejoice on that work but rejoice you are recorded in heaven. You hear this and your happy your name is recorded. Do you rejoice just because Jesus told you so or is it because Jesus said you should rejoice because you were able to do this work which proves you name is recorded. I believe this is the clear cut reading of this text. A parallel example would be the repentant tax collector who showed his real faith by his willingness to pay it all back and Jesus pronounces salvation has come as evidenced by his willingness to pay it back.

Now if I am correct in the above, Judas did not cast out demons because he was not recorded. Which btw I am sure we agree on his fate.


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## py3ak

earl40 said:


> Do you rejoice just because Jesus told you so or is it because Jesus said you should rejoice because you were able to do this work *which proves you name is recorded.*



You're still importing the bolded concept into the text, though I have denied that it's there. If you want to convince people that it's what the text says you need to lay out how you arrive at that concept from the text, or cite authorities who take it that same way, and also show how it is not precisely that (mis)reading that creates the difficulty you asked about in your first post. Since the way I take it does not have create that difficulty, harmonises well with Matthew 7, and doesn't require any speculation about Judas, it will require some compelling evidence to overthrow it.


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## earl40

py3ak said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you rejoice just because Jesus told you so or is it because Jesus said you should rejoice because you were able to do this work *which proves you name is recorded.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're still importing the bolded concept into the text, though I have denied that it's there. If you want to convince people that it's what the text says you need to lay out how you arrive at that concept from the text, or cite authorities who take it that same way, and also show how it is not precisely that (mis)reading that creates the difficulty you asked about in your first post. Since the way I take it does not have create that difficulty, harmonises well with Matthew 7, and doesn't require any speculation about Judas, it will require some compelling evidence to overthrow it.
Click to expand...


Do you think Jesus is stating a fact that some or all of them should rejoice because they are recorded? If yes, are you basing this on His proclamation to them? Or is it possible that the casting out of spirits prompts Jesus to tell them to rejoice that their names are recorded?

Now so far as Judas being able to cast out spirits how doe we explain the below?

25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 

26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 

38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."

39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. (which Judas did with a kiss)

40"For he who is not against us is for us. 

49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."

50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

-----Added 12/14/2009 at 09:20:23 EST-----



Amazing Grace said:


> (v. 22) Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
> 
> (v. 23) Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' '''
> 
> Notice that there were those who did real miracles in the name of Jesus who were not saved - just as Judas was not saved.



I am sorry this is your last post. I hope you read this response though.


Were the people in the above doing miracles and driving out demons? And if so was that not good just as you contend Judas did also? Jesus says they were "evildoers" and we also have a "claim" by people going to hell as truth. I would rather believe Jesus than a claim by a person going to hell.


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## KMK

earl40 said:


> Do you think Jesus is stating a fact that some or all of them should rejoice because they are recorded? If yes, are you basing this on His proclamation to them? Or is it possible that the casting out of spirits prompts Jesus to tell them to rejoice that their names are recorded?



The point Jesus is making is that doing miracles is nothing to rejoice over compared to having your name written in heaven. Everywhere the Bible teaches that our only assurance of our name written in heaven is faith. Signs and wonders are not 'assurance' in the same way faith is. Jesus is *not* teaching that everyone who has performed a miracle in His name is written in the book of the Lamb.

Again, your question has been answered several times in several ways. Do you have a better answer? Let's hear it.


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## KMK

From Ryle:



> Let the religion which we aim to possess be a religion in which grace is the main thing. Let it not content us to be able to speak eloquently, or preach powerfully, or reason ably, or argue cleverly, or profess loudly, or talk fluently. Let it not satisfy us to know the whole system of Christian doctrines, and to have texts and words at our command. These things are all well in their way. They are not to be undervalued. They have their use. But these things are not the grace of God, and they will not deliver us from hell. Let us never rest until we have the witness of the Spirit with us that we are "washed, and sanctified, and justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God." (I Cor 6:11) Let us seek to know that "our names are written in heaven," and that we are really one with Christ and Christ in us. Let us strive to be "epistles of Christ known and read of all men," and to show by our meekness, and charity, and faith, and spiritual-mindedness, that we are the children of God. This is true religion. These are the real marks of saving Christianity. Without such marks, a man may have abundance of gifts and turn out nothing better than a follower of Judas Iscariot, the false apostle, and go at last to hell. _Expository Thoughts_; Pg 361


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## earl40

KMK said:


> From Ryle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let the religion which we aim to possess be a religion in which grace is the main thing. Let it not content us to be able to speak eloquently, or preach powerfully, or reason ably, or argue cleverly, or profess loudly, or talk fluently. Let it not satisfy us to know the whole system of Christian doctrines, and to have texts and words at our command. These things are all well in their way. They are not to be undervalued. They have their use. But these things are not the grace of God, and they will not deliver us from hell. Let us never rest until we have the witness of the Spirit with us that we are "washed, and sanctified, and justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God." (I Cor 6:11) Let us seek to know that "our names are written in heaven," and that we are really one with Christ and Christ in us. Let us strive to be "epistles of Christ known and read of all men," and to show by our meekness, and charity, and faith, and spiritual-mindedness, that we are the children of God. This is true religion. These are the real marks of saving Christianity. Without such marks, a man may have abundance of gifts and turn out nothing better than a follower of Judas Iscariot, the false apostle, and go at last to hell. _Expository Thoughts_; Pg 361
Click to expand...


Thank you that was good.

Also I would like to say I am sorry I wasted everybodies time here. The verse on the 70 does not say the miracles are proof they are saved. I was wrong here. I was drawing an inference that I thought The Lord was alludig to.

My best guess is that my RC past and assumption that only His children could perform miracles in His Name. Though I still believe this the "70" verse does not necessarily preclude such I still believe that Judas did not cast out demons or perform miracles in His name. This presupposition is predicated on my reading of the verses stated earlier in my posts here.

Once again I am sorry.


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## Peairtach

Remember that giftedness, even gifts of the Spirit, isn't sound evidence of salvation. Saul was given spiritual gifts in order to be king, and even the gift of prophecy was given to him in judgment.

_When they came to Gibeah,behold, a group of prophets met him, and the Spirit of God rushed upon him, and he prophesied among them. And when all who knew him previously saw how he prophesied with the prophets, the people said to one another, "What has come over the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?" And a man of the place answered, "And who is their father?" Therefore it became a proverb, "Is Saul also among the prophets?" (I Sam 10:10-12, ESV) _

_Now David fled and escaped, and he came to Samuel at Ramah and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and lived at Naioth. And it was told Saul, "Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah." Then Saul sent messengers to take David, and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. Then he himself went to Ramah and came to the great well that is in Secu. And he asked, "Where are Samuel and David?" And one said, "Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah." And he went there to Naioth in Ramah. And the Spirit of God came upon him also, and as he went he prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he too stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay naked all that day and all that night. Thus it is said, "Is Saul also among the prophets?" (I Sam 19:18-24, ESV) _

True fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5) and the marks of grace are how we should judge that we have passed from death to life. There has to be a moral change in the person, such that they love God's law and God's Word and the true God Himself, whereas before they didn't. 

You can receive the gift of casting out demons, prophecy or tongues, or be able to preach or pray very fluently, without a moral change of heart.


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## py3ak

earl40 said:


> Also I would like to say I am sorry I wasted everybodies time here. The verse on the 70 does not say the miracles are proof they are saved. I was wrong here. I was drawing an inference that I thought The Lord was alludig to.
> 
> My best guess is that my RC past and assumption that only His children could perform miracles in His Name. Though I still believe this the "70" verse does not necessarily preclude such I still believe that Judas did not cast out demons or perform miracles in His name. This presupposition is predicated on my reading of the verses stated earlier in my posts here.
> 
> Once again I am sorry.



It's never a waste of time to interact with someone who is willing to learn, as you've shown yourself to be.


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## Amazing Grace

earl40 said:


> Also I would like to say I am sorry I wasted everybodies time here. The verse on the 70 does not say the miracles are proof they are saved. I was wrong here. I was drawing an inference that I thought The Lord was alludig to.
> 
> My best guess is that my RC past and assumption that only His children could perform miracles in His Name. Though I still believe this the "70" verse does not necessarily preclude such I still believe that Judas did not cast out demons or perform miracles in His name. This presupposition is predicated on my reading of the verses stated earlier in my posts here.
> 
> Once again I am sorry.



Earl, it is NEVER a waste of anyone's time to speak on the word and rightly divide it. If you read Luke 9, you will see Judas was included in the 12. 

1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”
6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Judas in included here certainly.


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## earl40

Amazing Grace said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also I would like to say I am sorry I wasted everybodies time here. The verse on the 70 does not say the miracles are proof they are saved. I was wrong here. I was drawing an inference that I thought The Lord was alludig to.
> 
> My best guess is that my RC past and assumption that only His children could perform miracles in His Name. Though I still believe this the "70" verse does not necessarily preclude such I still believe that Judas did not cast out demons or perform miracles in His name. This presupposition is predicated on my reading of the verses stated earlier in my posts here.
> 
> Once again I am sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, it is NEVER a waste of anyone's time to speak on the word and rightly divide it. If you read Luke 9, you will see Judas was included in the 12.
> 
> 1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
> 4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”
> 6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
> 
> Judas in included here certainly.
Click to expand...


First of all thank you for your encouragement. Now concerning Judas how is this possible with these verses?

25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."

39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me....... (which Judas did with a kiss)

40"For he who is not against us is for us.

49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."

50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


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## Amazing Grace

earl40 said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also I would like to say I am sorry I wasted everybodies time here. The verse on the 70 does not say the miracles are proof they are saved. I was wrong here. I was drawing an inference that I thought The Lord was alludig to.
> 
> My best guess is that my RC past and assumption that only His children could perform miracles in His Name. Though I still believe this the "70" verse does not necessarily preclude such I still believe that Judas did not cast out demons or perform miracles in His name. This presupposition is predicated on my reading of the verses stated earlier in my posts here.
> 
> Once again I am sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, it is NEVER a waste of anyone's time to speak on the word and rightly divide it. If you read Luke 9, you will see Judas was included in the 12.
> 
> 1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
> 4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”
> 6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
> 
> Judas in included here certainly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First of all thank you for your encouragement. Now concerning Judas how is this possible with these verses?
> 
> 25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
> 
> 26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
> 
> 38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."
> 
> 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me....... (which Judas did with a kiss)
> 
> 40"For he who is not against us is for us.
> 
> 49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."
> 
> 50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."
Click to expand...


Once again you are making a non sequitur. The betrayal does not equal speaking Evil of Christ.


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## earl40

Amazing Grace said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, it is NEVER a waste of anyone's time to speak on the word and rightly divide it. If you read Luke 9, you will see Judas was included in the 12.
> 
> 1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
> 4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”
> 6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
> 
> Judas in included here certainly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all thank you for your encouragement. Now concerning Judas how is this possible with these verses?
> 
> 25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
> 
> 26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
> 
> 38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."
> 
> 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me....... (which Judas did with a kiss)
> 
> 40"For he who is not against us is for us.
> 
> 49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."
> 
> 50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again you are making a non sequitur. The betrayal does not equal speaking Evil of Christ.
Click to expand...


Then what of the other verses?


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