# Tebowing



## Jack K (Oct 29, 2011)

So last week in his first game as the starting quarterback of the Denver Broncos, Tim Tebow led an improbable late-game comeback. As the winning field goal was made, TV cameras caught Tebow bowing on one knee, in prayer, while the rest of his team jumped for joy around him.

Now the latest rage here in Colorado (and spreading) is "Tebowing." The creator of the website that started it  describes Tebowing as "to get down on a knee and start praying, even if everyone else around you is doing something completely different."

But as with "planking," the ultimate goal seems to be to take a picture and post it on the Internet.

Tebow told the Denver Post he's cool with the phenomenon: "It is serious, for me. At least it's being talked about, and that's a cool thing. If I can help be an example of that, then I look at that as a blessing."

Looking beyond the already-beaten-to-death issue of the NFL playing most of its games on Sunday... What do you think of this sort of thing? Appropriate?


----------



## SolaScriptura (Oct 29, 2011)

I read the article on Yahoo.

This is simply more of the same old hatred for anything Christian. For as long as I can recall, various football players from every level of play from high school to the NFL have "taken a knee" to offer a quick prayer after a score. Yet Tebow is (by all appearances) a fairly consistent evangelical and he is loathed for it. So anyone and everyone can offer a quick prayer, but if he does it then it becomes something to mock and ridicule.


----------



## Pergamum (Oct 29, 2011)

Not sure God cares much about silly touchdowns or why thanking him for one is needed.

Only insofar as a farmer thanks God for a good crop can I see athletes thanking God for a good season...and then maybe only at the end so as to avoid ostentatious and overly conspicious religiosity.

I have seen boxers knock their opponent silly and then thank God and I have always thought this odd, since his winning had to come at another man's losing, akin to a gambler thanking God for cleaning out fellow gamblers. At least a farmer's gain does not come at another man's detriment.


----------



## Marrow Man (Oct 29, 2011)

I thought Tebowing was crying in public after losing a game you thought you were certain to win.


----------



## raekwon (Oct 29, 2011)

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

Hate it when any athlete does this, but someone like Tebow should know better.


----------



## JS116 (Oct 29, 2011)

Ehhh,If he didn't take a knee,people would have something to say,if he continues people will still have something to say.Just as long as he has the lifestyle to back up he's really doing that behind closed doors,it's fine with me,unlike other entertainers and athletes who simlply mock God.


----------



## Herald (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm not going to be overly harsh on Tebow on this issue. It's to be expected in this post-modern world we live in.

I don't get down on one knee in front of a customer and offer a quick prayer after making a sale. It puts the emphasis on a worldly view of success as opposed to true thankfulness. I mean, if I'm going to thank God for a sale why wouldn't I get on one knee after losing a sale? After all, it's still God's will, right?


----------



## baron (Oct 29, 2011)

It seems a lot of people pray that their teams will win. I know people were praying for Texas last night. 

Remember this from last year, Steve Johnson from the Bills blaming God.

Steve Johnson blames God for his overtime drop - Shutdown Corner - NFL Blog - Yahoo! Sports


----------



## Unoriginalname (Oct 29, 2011)

raekwon said:


> "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
> 
> Hate it when any athlete does this, but someone like Tebow should know better.


I second that, it is silly and unnecessary


----------



## Frosty (Oct 29, 2011)

While I do believe Tebow does what he does out of sincerity, and would not judge him for what he does, I do think the "thank God when we score a touchdown/come back for a big win!" thing often gives the wrong message to unbelievers. Why not thank God after throwing an interception returned for a TD?

Would be best to quietly thank God in your heart as the game goes on- not before man. The constantly bowing down thing _*seems *_to be some sort of a show, even if it's not intended to be that way.

Then, there's this....... 2011 World Series -- Texas Rangers Josh Hamilton says God called HR - ESPN Dallas


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Oct 29, 2011)

raekwon said:


> "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
> 
> Hate it when any athlete does this, but someone like Tebow should know better.


----------



## Andres (Oct 29, 2011)

Jack K said:


> Now the latest rage here in Colorado (and spreading) is "Tebowing." The creator of the website that started it describes Tebowing as "to get down on a knee and start praying, even if everyone else around you is doing something completely different."
> 
> But as with "planking," the ultimate goal seems to be to take a picture and post it on the Internet.
> 
> What do you think of this sort of thing? Appropriate?



I would consider mocking prayer to be a violation of the third commandment and therefore obviously something to be condemned. 



> Q. 113. What are the sins forbidden in the third commandment?
> A. The sins forbidden in the third commandment are, the not using of God's name as is required; and the abuse of it in an ignorant, vain, irreverent, profane, superstitious, or wicked mentioning or otherwise using his titles, attributes, ordinances, or works, by blasphemy, perjury; all sinful cursings, oaths, vows, and lots; violating of our oaths and vows, if lawful; and fulfilling them, if of things unlawful; murmuring and quarreling at, curious prying into, and misapplying of God's decrees and providences; misinterpreting, misapplying, or any way perverting the word, or any part of it, to profane jests, curious or unprofitable questions, vain janglings, or the maintaining of false doctrines; abusing it, the creatures, or anything contained under the name of God, to charms, or sinful lusts and practices; the maligning, scorning, reviling, or any wise opposing of God's truth, grace, and ways; making profession of religion in hypocrisy, or for sinister ends; being ashamed of it, or a shame to it, by unconformable, unwise, unfruitful, and offensive walking, or backsliding from it.


----------



## RobertPGH1981 (Oct 29, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with it. 

Unfortunately, we all know that non-christians will mock Christians. I don't think most people are mocking Tebow by Tebowing. I think some fans are simply fans, and they are imitating him because they like him as an athlete. What he does is unique than other players because when he does it people know he is being genuine. I am happy that God places Christians in Professional sports because they have a huge impact on our society.

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------




raekwon said:


> "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
> 
> Hate it when any athlete does this, but someone like Tebow should know better.



It's probably hard to not show emotion when you are surrounded by 60,000 fans. I don't think he is doing anything wrong. When I go out to public restaurant's me and my friends pray. I am sure people notice us, but does that make it wrong? I don't think we should judge his motives. If he is doing it for the wrong reasons then God will hold him accountable.


----------



## Jack K (Oct 29, 2011)

I won't question Tebow's motives. Though it feels showy to me, perhaps he knows himself to be such a competitive athlete that at such moments he needs to take a minute and pray. Okay then.

But the Tebowing phenomenon seems either (1) mocking, (2) frivolous fun or (3) corny emulation. Whichever is the case, I think in most situations I'd like to see prayer handled with more respect. Pretending to pray for a fun picture? Prayer is too great a privilege to be played around with that way. Truly praying because you're inspired by Tebow, and making a point of getting a picture of it to post. Hmmm... still iffy at best.


----------



## Andres (Oct 29, 2011)

Jack K said:


> But the Tebowing phenomenon seems either (1) mocking, (2) frivolous fun or (3) corny emulation. Whichever is the case, I think in most situations I'd like to see prayer handled with more respect. Pretending to pray for a fun picture? Prayer is too great a privilege to be played around with that way. Truly praying because you're inspired by Tebow, and making a point of getting a picture of it to post. Hmmm... still iffy at best.



There isn't a distinction between treating prayer as "frivolous fun" and/or "corny emulation". Both of these would fall under mocking and as I already mentioned, violates the third commandment. 
And we don't pray because we are inspired by Tebow, Christians pray because they are commanded to in scripture. Finally, as others have pointed out, there is absolutely no need to photograph ourselves.


----------



## JML (Oct 30, 2011)

I just find it odd that he (Tebow) thanks God for his (Tebow's) breaking of the Sabbath.


----------



## RobertPGH1981 (Oct 30, 2011)

Jack K said:


> Whichever is the case, I think in most situations I'd like to see prayer handled with more respect. Pretending to pray for a fun picture? Prayer is too great a privilege to be played around with that way. Truly praying because you're inspired by Tebow, and making a point of getting a picture of it to post. Hmmm... still iffy at best.



Those who are mocking in a harmful way are not Christian, and we shouldn't expect them to be respectful of our beliefs. However, I don't think mirroring the actions of a guy for the fun of it is wrong. I definitely wouldn't put that in the same category as mocking. I believe some people are viewing him as a positive role model and refer to this as part of his identity. Better him as a role model than most athletes these days... 

Mocking (def): 1. To treat with ridicule or contempt; deride.

I am curious to know everyone thoughts on this: Does the Sabbath have to be defined as Sunday for everybody? Would it be acceptable to consider the sabbath on Saturday? (Should I start a new thread?)


----------



## Andres (Oct 30, 2011)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> I am curious to know everyone thoughts on this: Does the Sabbath have to be defined as Sunday for everybody? Would it be acceptable to consider the sabbath on Saturday? (Should I start a new thread?)



WCF 21.7. _As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath._


----------



## Peytah (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't understand how you guys can accuse Tebow of practicing his righteousness before men. You might as well take the "don't pray before men" out of context and forbid long pastoral prayers. Like mentioned before me, none of us know his motives. If anything, I applaud the man for keeping up his Christian practices (whether or not you guys think it's silly) in front of a world that remains hostile to it. And I feel like bias due to him breaking the Sabbath causes many to think this way. He's getting persecuted by the world for it, and now it seems like he's getting persecuted by fellow Christians.


----------



## raekwon (Oct 30, 2011)

Don't get me wrong. I am not judging his motives. Were that the case, I'd have no problem with it, as I believe he's sincere. What I'm judging are his actions. Pray in secret, and your Father, who sees what is in secret, will reward you.

(I don't think that the comparison to prayer in public worship is a very good one, but okay.)


----------



## Unoriginalname (Oct 30, 2011)

Peytah said:


> I don't understand how you guys can accuse Tebow of practicing his righteousness before men. You might as well take the "don't pray before men" out of context and forbid long pastoral prayers. Like mentioned before me, none of us know his motives. If anything, I applaud the man for keeping up his Christian practices (whether or not you guys think it's silly) in front of a world that remains hostile to it. And I feel like bias due to him breaking the Sabbath causes many to think this way. He's getting persecuted by the world for it, and now it seems like he's getting persecuted by fellow Christians.



I do not believe the remark about Tebow practicing righteousness before others speaks towards his motives as much as his actions. It brings unneeded attention to himself when he does his over-dramatic prayers. I am calling it over dramatic because he his purposefully drawing attention to his own actions. Furthermore what he is doing his celebratory prayer for, is what is excepted of him. He is paid to throw passes that become touchdowns. It would be the equivalent of me doing a prayer every time I give a bed bath to a patient, it is my job. Finally and I do not mean this hostilely, I think it is unfair to call the motives of the people who are critical of him, into question by saying its a bias do to sabbath breaking.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 30, 2011)

The idea that Tebow is doing something new is silly. On field prayer in this manner has been going on since at least a decade prior to Tebow's birth. 

As noted before, this reaction to Tebow's actions has more to do with Tebow's status as a lightning rod in the culture wars than anything else. The fact that he seems to practice what he preaches as opposed to those who publicly praise God one minute and father children out of wedlock the next may also have something to do with it. 

Boxing fans will remember George Foreman kneeling in prayer in the corner after his improbable KO to regain the heavyweight title in 1994.


----------



## Pergamum (Oct 30, 2011)

I wonder if anybody did this practice prior to the 1980's?


----------



## toddpedlar (Oct 30, 2011)

John Lanier said:


> I just find it odd that he (Tebow) thanks God for his (Tebow's) breaking of the Sabbath.



This is a strange statement and expresses an unrealistic expectation about what Tebow believes. Yes, Tebow is breaking the Sabbath, and yes, Tebow is thanking God for the talents God has given him. But really, John, do you expect anything else? It's kind of like saying that you find it odd that a kosher-keeping Jew won't eat a cheeseburger. There's nothing odd about that, nor is there anything really odd about Tebow's action. Given that he clearly does not see what he's doing as breaking the Sabbath, why would you find it odd that he thanks God for what he honestly believes is a right and proper use of the gifts he has, as he clearly views God as having given them his athletic talent?


----------



## Weston Stoler (Oct 30, 2011)

> All that said, I believe Pergalicious is right in that I believe God couldn't care any less about sports, touchdowns, etc. What he's concerned with are His children, and their worship of Him, etc. In everything we ought to give thanks.



Did he not ordain a winner and a loser for his glory? The of course he cares for it right? Even though it is not the same reason we feeble men care for it.


----------



## Stargazer65 (Oct 31, 2011)

Weston Stoler said:


> > All that said, I believe Pergalicious is right in that I believe God couldn't care any less about sports, touchdowns, etc. What he's concerned with are His children, and their worship of Him, etc. In everything we ought to give thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Did he not ordain a winner and a loser for his glory? The of course he cares for it right? Even though it is not the same reason we feeble men care for it.




I agree, I think God cares about our little affairs. I might pray to give thanks about things as mundane as the fact my car started this morning. I consider that private worship. Nobody saw me do it, but that's just because nobody else wanted to be in my driveway at 5:30 AM. I don't watch football, but it sounds like this Tebow guy is doing the same, everybody just happens to be looking his way.


----------



## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2011)

Weston Stoler said:


> > All that said, I believe Pergalicious is right in that I believe God couldn't care any less about sports, touchdowns, etc. What he's concerned with are His children, and their worship of Him, etc. In everything we ought to give thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Did he not ordain a winner and a loser for his glory? The of course he cares for it right? Even though it is not the same reason we feeble men care for it.



But in sports like football, the same as in gambling and boxing, there is no way for you to win without making the other guy lose...especially so in boxing and gambling, to pray for your own smashing victory would be to pray a severe butt-licking upon the other guy, and this seems hard to reconcile with Christian charity in some sports. 

I have heard coaches pray for safety before a game and good sportsmenship, and this seems appropriate. Maybe praying with the cheerleaders and exhorting them to put on some more clothes might be a worthy endeavor, too.

Also, the timing of such prayers would seem more appropriate before and after the game instead of during the game.


----------



## earl40 (Oct 31, 2011)

Stargazer65 said:


> I agree, I think God cares about our little affairs



Personally I never like statments like this. Like He is not TOTALLY involved is ALL affairs under the sun.


----------



## Stargazer65 (Oct 31, 2011)

> Weston Stoler said:
> 
> 
> > Did he not ordain a winner and a loser for his glory? The of course he cares for it right? Even though it is not the same reason we feeble men care for it.
> ...



Oh, no, no, no. You always have to plan for every possible misunderstanding.

Case in point:


> earl40
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by Stargazer65
> ...



Of course he's totally involved in all affairs. That's what I mean, if he's involved in our little affairs he's involved in all affairs under the sun.


----------



## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2011)

Kevin;

Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God? 

Or thanking him for touchdowns? 

If Tebow was kneeling praying God to relieve the suffering of the starving children in Africa, I could go for that; but it is hard not to think of sports-related prayers (except for prayers for the safety of the players) to be trivial and frivolous.


----------



## toddpedlar (Oct 31, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Kevin;
> 
> Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God?
> 
> ...



All discussion of breaking the Sabbath aside, and whether you like professional sports as an occupation, Perg, I think your comment is pretty unrealistic and frankly unfair.

Given that Tebow plays football for a living - again lets not get into judging whether it's an honorable calling or not, because that's not at issue (and I think I agree with you on this more than you may know) what is wrong or frivolous about thanking God for a good day at the office? I do this ALL THE TIME (actually probably not as often as I ought to). Is it not a good and appropriate thing to thank God for a productive day? Or, as is implied in your note, is the only "worthy" prayer that which has no self-referent? Should I feel guilty when I thank God that I was able in class to effectively teach a concept that the class had been missing, rather than spend that 60 seconds pleading with God for relief of famine in Sudan?


----------



## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2011)

Would you thank God for winning at a poker hand? 

Or, how about the prayer of a boxer, "Thank you God that I was able to bloody my opponent's eye so badly and beat him so hard in the head that he was unable to think clear enough to respond or even stand up."

While football does not appear quite so bad as that, it seems unseemly to offer highly visible prayer for such a trivial thing.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

P.s. a car salesman might not pray due to every single completed sale; but I suppose if he were being filmed, he might be more inclined to take a knee. While it would be okay for a car salesman to do so, I would ask if equal vigor was given to prayer in other more vital areas of life.


----------



## Marrow Man (Oct 31, 2011)

I read the recap of yesterday's game between Tebow's Broncos and the Detroit Lions. He performed terribly, including coughing up a fumbled (returned for a touchdown) and throwing an interception that was returned 100 yards for a TD. The Broncos lost 45-10. In a couple of cases, Lions players apparently mocked "Tebowing" after scoring TDs.


----------



## Stargazer65 (Oct 31, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Kevin;
> 
> Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God?
> 
> ...



Pergamum,

If your kids ask you a question (like "could we have such and such for dinner?") would you angrily send them away because it's a trivial request? 

I don't think one thing excludes the other. If we pray about trivial things, we also will be more likely to pray for important things. If we don't pray for everything, pretty soon we make excuses not to pray for anything.

All the same, I agree with you that we shouldn't pray for something sinful, that's a given.


----------



## gordo (Oct 31, 2011)

Interesting discussion. as a former semi-pro athlete i can attest to how an athlete in a high pressure situation will lean on the Lord in glory and defeat. It is a hard to compare being a car salesman and praying after a sale to an athlete being watched by millions in an extremely high pressure situation. We have to keep that in mind when passing judgment on the situation.

I will say though that if anything, his prayer was a bit 'showy'. Perhaps a bowing of the head on the bench in reverence would have been more appropriate and would have not caused this whole 'Tebowing' thing to even occur. 

On a side not, as a life long Lions fan, it was nice to see them win and at the same time, nip this Tebowing thing in a bud as I am sure it is not as popular today after his poor performance.


----------



## he beholds (Oct 31, 2011)

OK. I'm a Christian (duh--I'm here) and a football fan/watcher, and a Tebow fan, and I still love the Tebowing craze. I think it is hilarious and fun. I don't think it is mocking prayer but it is poking fun at someone praying. It _is_ kind of funny that Tebow, or any sports player, visibly prays in the midst of so much else. I don't blame him at all and I guess I admire it, even, but I see why people think it's comical. But the fact that he's being mocked or teased for praying is way better than what my QB gets mocked for. 

I, for the record, really do believe that God is concerned with football games or even Monopoly games, if his children are playing. I don't quite have a grasp on _how_ concerned he is or _how_ involved he is in the winnings and the losings, but I think those things are a real part of the lives of his children and as such, matter to the Lord. I think that sports _are _an appropriate way to use your talents to glorify the Lord and if they are not, then why, for example, is TimV's exotic plant gardeningView attachment 2432? Or anything else that is pleasing to his children but not directly related to their salvation?

(Tim, I stole your pic from FB so people would know what I was talking about. I'll edit it out if you want!)


----------



## earl40 (Oct 31, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Kevin;
> 
> Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God?
> 
> ...



Though I understand your sentiment, the "trivial and frivolous" comment assumes NO care by God. Not to say there are indeed priorities in life which I think you are trying to convey. To such sentiments I agree with.


----------



## toddpedlar (Oct 31, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Would you thank God for winning at a poker hand?
> 
> Or, how about the prayer of a boxer, "Thank you God that I was able to bloody my opponent's eye so badly and beat him so hard in the head that he was unable to think clear enough to respond or even stand up."
> 
> ...



Again, Perg, I ask you whether you think you might reconsider how judgmental your position sounds. 

1) "I suppose if he were being filmed he might be more inclined to take a knee" 

Huh? How do you come to that conclusion? Do you think that Tebow took a knee specifically because he knew he might be put on camera? How do you come to that conclusion? Isn't it possible that he was just giving honest thanks for his own safety during the game and a successful outcome? The man is paid to win. You may not like his profession, but come on, give the guy a break.

2) "I would ask if equal vigor was given to prayer in other more vital areas of life." 

What business is it of yours to ask such questions? Do you realize how arrogant your questions sound?


----------



## Andres (Oct 31, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Maybe praying with the cheerleaders and exhorting them to put on some more clothes might be a worthy endeavor, too.


----------



## Rufus (Oct 31, 2011)

Andres said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe praying with the cheerleaders and exhorting them to put on some more clothes might be a worthy endeavor, too.



View attachment 2433

The good old days.


----------



## Jack K (Nov 1, 2011)

Ted Kluck now has a blog post on this topic: "Was it Wrong for the Lions to Mock Tebow?" In summary, he's not entirely convinced but leans toward thinking Tebow's on-field prayers are kinda bush league. But he also doesn't like people mocking prayer.


----------



## J. Dean (Nov 2, 2011)

If a man is publicly praying and praying sincerely to God because he wishes to thank God for his blessings (Denard Robinson of Michigan does this after every td), then there's no problem with it.

If a man is praying publicly in order to say "Look at how righteous I am," then that's wrong.

As mentioned earlier, the emphasis of Jesus on Matthew 6 is the motivation behind public prayer, not the condemnation carte blanche of public prayer. We can't see Tebow's heart on this; he very well may be doing this to give public glory to God a la David dancing before the Lord (remember that David said "It was before the Lord" that he danced). So we need to be VERY careful about judging what we cannot see-that is, a man's heart.


----------



## Zach (Nov 2, 2011)

I think ultimately the question comes down to what Tebow's motives are, and we cannot answer that. I believe him to be a sincere Christian because he has given me no reason to believe otherwise and have no reason to question his motive to pray. Let the man pray in peace.


----------



## Pilgrim (Nov 2, 2011)

Marrow Man said:


> I read the recap of yesterday's game between Tebow's Broncos and the Detroit Lions. He performed terribly, including coughing up a fumbled (returned for a touchdown) and throwing an interception that was returned 100 yards for a TD. The Broncos lost 45-10. In a couple of cases, Lions players apparently mocked "Tebowing" after scoring TDs.



That team has a lot more problems than him, but if Mr. Tebow doesn't improve soon, he'll be bowing out of the league rather than "Tebowing."

But if you raise the issue of him lacking the proper skill set, etc. some will misunderstand that as personally attacking him.


----------



## Pilgrim (Nov 2, 2011)

toddpedlar said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Would you thank God for winning at a poker hand?
> ...



Many have made a golden calf out of sports and similar things. Perhaps this tendency is at its worst in the "Bible Belt!" An ongoing thread is discussing "cool" pastors. Some of them have made a fetish out of MMA, apparently thinking that it makes one "manly." Not infrequently do I think that such things should be reproved and reprobated. 

However, I second Todd's questions. 

While I don't think it it is infallible and do not formally subscribe to it, I have often found the portions on the moral law in the Westminster Larger Catechism to be very helpful. Perhaps the appropriate questions and answers from the WLC regarding the 9th Commandment should be reviewed here? 

Just because something is questionable, we are not free to judge others motives in the matter, especially absent other evidence. Now, if Mr. Tebow had done something like unrepentantly father a series of bastard babies with numerous women, all the while loudly proclaiming his Christianity, (as some notables in the sports world have done) then perhaps we might have ground to question his genuineness and his profession of Christianity.

I'd even go so far as to say that if persisted and not repented of, these kinds of wild charges to do not befit one who is called to the pastoral office. They aren't proper in any professing Christian.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

Earl:

I just hope Mr Tebow and other praying athletes give praise to God in their less-televised moments as well.


----------



## RobertPGH1981 (Nov 4, 2011)

earl40 said:


> Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God?
> 
> Or thanking him for touchdowns?
> 
> ...





Yes, striving to be more in line with Gods design is what you are trying to convey. However, God is interested in everything we are doing frivolous or not.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

How come we don't see many public displays of prayer after synchronized swimming routines, or strikes in bowling or some sort of prayer on horseback following horse derby races? What lends the football goal-line to all sorts of shows and dances and public knee-takings? 

Also, why isn't this sort of public praying a long historical tradition but seems to be a new fashion the last couple decades in sports? Are we getting holier in our sports-playing or has something else shifted in the culture such that displays of prayer at sporting events (while the game is still being played) is becoming normal?


----------



## BJClark (Nov 4, 2011)

Unoriginalname;



> I do not believe the remark about Tebow practicing righteousness before others speaks towards his motives as much as his actions. It brings unneeded attention to himself when he does his over-dramatic prayers. I am calling it over dramatic because he his purposefully drawing attention to his own actions. Furthermore what he is doing his celebratory prayer for, is what is excepted of him. He is paid to throw passes that become touchdowns. It would be the equivalent of me doing a prayer every time I give a bed bath to a patient, it is my job. Finally and I do not mean this hostilely, I think it is unfair to call the motives of the people who are critical of him, into question by saying its a bias do to sabbath breaking.



I can't judge the mans motives on why he is doing taking a knee, but is it really HIM that is drawing attention to himself, or is it more the media who feel the need to watch every move of a certain people?

The Media does not only report on Tebow taking a knee, but they also report on people when they get arrested, or fumble the ball which causes the loss of a game, it's what they do, it's what they get paid for. So the question should be..not why Tebow takes a knee, but why the media and the masses are so infatuated with the fact that he does.

Do they desire to entertain the masses? or are they really interested in learning about the God he bows his knee to?

Maybe he is thanking God, not for the win, but that with as violent as a sport football is that nobody was seriously injured during the game.
Maybe he is praying he will not allow all the media attention to go to his head, where he takes credit for his abilities, while I may not find the ability to throw a football x number of yards an extremely useful talent, but it is how God has allowed for him to be able to openly share his faith with a large audience of people.

I don't know how much money the man makes or what he does with his income, but if he's tithing or giving sacrificially off his income, imagine if he were in your congregation helping support your ministry financially, helping to assist others in your congregation who are out of work, or struggling financially because of other things. I'm sure you would be thankful that God has provided that income during these difficult economic times.

And as for his playing football on a Sunday, that is his work day, whether we 'approve' or not, how many other people work on Sundays because that is when their employer has them working? Do we know what he does AFTER the game or even before a game if he plays at night? How does anyone know that he doesn't spend the rest of his day spending time with God? Or doing things that you might actually 'approve' of? All the media shows is what is going on during those few hours of a day, it certainly doesn't tell the whole picture of the man's life.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

BJClark said:


> Unoriginalname;
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Maybe he is thanking God, not for the win, but that with as violent as a sport football is that nobody was seriously injured during the game.



I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.


Also, a side-note:  Those players that mocked Tebow......if they wanted to mock prayer, why not stick a towel on their heads and act as if they were praying the Sholat towards Mecca....instead of slight media annoyance for tastelessness, we would see what sort of reaction would result.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

P.s. or a further thought: What if Tebow were a black muslim or something, changed his name to Muhammad Ali and began praying to Mecca after each touchdown. How would he be treated then?


----------



## BJClark (Nov 4, 2011)

Pergamum;



> I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.



Is that the players fault or the medias? The players MAY do that, but the media doesn't show it or report it, unless of course it's someone frustrated with God because they lost, as is what happened with another player.




> Also, a side-note:  Those players that mocked Tebow......if they wanted to mock prayer, why not stick a towel on their heads and act as if they were praying the Sholat towards Mecca....instead of slight media annoyance for tastelessness, we would see what sort of reaction would result.
> 
> P.s. or a further thought: What if Tebow were a black muslim or something, changed his name to Muhammad Ali and began praying to Mecca after each touchdown. How would he be treated then?



They would be attacked by the Muslim community, just as Tebow is being by some within the Christian Community--but the news media isn't interested in how Christians respond to Tebow bowing a knee, but they would be interested in the Muslims reaction to them mocking them..because they wouldn't go to a private forum and do so, they would make sure the media and the world heard..

IF Christians actually made it a habit to speak out against such things, through the media, then it's something the media would report..


----------



## J. Dean (Nov 4, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.


Kurt Warner did this. Both he and Aaron Rodgers are outspoken Christians.


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 4, 2011)

*I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.*


It's not unusual to see NFL players, both winners and losers, join hands and take a knee together after the game. 

Pergy, what's eatin' ya Brother? Maybe your being hard on Mr. Tebow. That would be disappointing if his public prayers were show but let's be charitable and give the man the benefit of the doubt. We could see far worse behavior from a very young brother surrounded by temptations. Furthermore, there is much at stake on every snap of the ball. Were Tebow unconcerned about his performance or nonchalant about winning, what testimony would that be and would that glorify God (Sabbath questions aside)? The NFL is big business. There are many people that depend on the man. His mishandling of game play can result in more than financial consequences; serious injuries and career ending events can result from poor quarterbacking.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

J. Dean said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.
> ...




Very cool! Thanks for the info, I'd love to see more of that.

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------




seajayrice said:


> *I've never yet seen an example of public prayers during a sports game by the loser. I would like to see such a thing so that I can try to believe that most players really are primarily thanking God for a lack of injuries, etc, primarily, and are not focusing on their own individual sports performances.*
> 
> 
> It's not unusual to see NFL players, both winners and losers, join hands and take a knee together after the game.
> ...



I've never said anything against Mr. Tebow in particular but am making generalizations about the religious behavior that is displayed by most sports players that make such public displays. Perhaps Mr. Tebow is different than most (I hope so). There is really no emotion in this thread for me since I am not much of a sports fan. So, nuthin' eatin' me here.




> It's not unusual to see NFL players, both winners and losers, join hands and take a knee together after the game.



I have never seen this; but will take your word for it and say, "Very cool if this does happen" though I doubt if it occurs a lot. I would love to see that more.

---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------




> The NFL is big business. There are many people that depend on the man. His mishandling of game play can result in more than financial consequences; serious injuries and career ending events can result from poor quarterbacking.



Another question/observation: Why don't we see more left guards or centers dropping to one knee after a good play? If it is a good thing for all to pray and is not at all frivolous I would expect more nose-tackles and guards doing so as well. 

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

For those offended by my posts in this thread:

I do not know who Mr. Tebow is and have never seen him play.

My position on this thread is that, aside from on-field injuries where the state of the injured is not known, prayers during the game seem out of place. Praying before or after is one thing, but just because prayer is a good thing does not mean that all prayers at all times and places are equally appropriate. Also, as an observation, this sort of behavior appears to be a new trend in sports and appears to disproportionately occur at certain times of high visibility and by certain key players and is not a thing which is happening equally across all sports, all positions and during all happenings during these sports games. This in no way impugns Mr. Tebows motivations, but stands as a fair observation that needs to be answered besides accusations of being "arrogant" or too judgmental. I would equally think it weird if businessmen started taking knees after awesome powerpoint presentations, etc.


----------



## RobertPGH1981 (Nov 4, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> It's not unusual to see NFL players, both winners and losers, join hands and take a knee together after the game.
> I have never seen this; but will take your word for it and say, "Very cool if this does happen" though I doubt if it occurs a lot. I would love to see that more.



This is probably because the cameras are on the winners instead of the losers at the end of the game. Players always take a knee in football when somebody is hurt bad. Some players do it to show respect and others do it to pray. Camera's are usually not on them because injuries in the NFL mean commercial breaks for networks.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

Robert,

That is one explanation.


----------



## gordo (Nov 4, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> How come we don't see many public displays of prayer after synchronized swimming routines, or strikes in bowling or some sort of prayer on horseback following horse derby races? What lends the football goal-line to all sorts of shows and dances and public knee-takings?



As said earlier, NFL Football is very high stress, highly charged, high intensity, high pressure. It takes a toll on the athletes which can lead them to these kinds of sudden prayers. Of course not all is genuine, but I think Tebow was definitely caught in the moment and decided instead of celebrating with his team mates he would thank the Lord.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 4, 2011)

Every football game I have ever attended in person (D-I college and pro) the teams have gotten together around the 50 yard-line and prayed after the game. It is just not televised.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

I can accept that.


----------



## Pilgrim (Nov 4, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of that culture since in so many cases it seems to be done in a _pro forma_ fashion, as with so much of Bible Belt God and Country culture and civil religion generally. (Nothing against God or country here, or apple pie for that matter. I just dissent from the syncretism and undiscerning quality of much of it.)

However, public prayer after football games that includes members of both teams is so commonplace as to give atheists fits lest it make some players uncomfortable. I think that's probably at all levels, High School, College and Pro. The same goes for pre-game prayers, which if I'm not mistaken have been the subject of ACLU type lawsuits when it involves public (government) schools. Such prayers typically if not always include prayer for the safety of the players.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2011)

Chris,

Yes, those sorts of prayers would be great. I played many sports in high school and we never, ever prayed afterwards, but maybe in some regions this is common.


----------



## Jack K (Nov 4, 2011)

We should note that Tebow's initial on-field prayer that brought on the whole Tebowing phenomenon came not as a post-touchdown showing off but rather _after_ the game was over, following an overtime field goal. He was on the sidelines, but the TV cameras found him.

He's never said what he was praying. The charitable thing would be to suppose it was a very exciting moment for him and he wanted to spend it with God rather than just run off celebrating like everyone else. He wouldn't by any means be the first pro athlete to do this. But because he's Tebow—Heisman winner who wears his faith on his sleeve, homeschooled son of missionaries, John 3:16 eye black, Focus on the Family TV spots, etc.—people notice it more.

I'll say this... even if the prayer is a real prayer, he _is_ acutely aware that people are watching. Tebow the Christian is like a brand. It's managed strategically. The Bible verse eye black and such is designed to be a witness by taking advantage of his celebrity.


----------



## Pilgrim (Nov 5, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Chris,
> 
> Yes, those sorts of prayers would be great. I played many sports in high school and we never, ever prayed afterwards, but maybe in some regions this is common.



I haven't been around High School sports in a long while. It seems to me that these prayers may be peculiarly a football thing. But others may have had different experiences.

---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------




Jack K said:


> We should note that Tebow's initial on-field prayer that brought on the whole Tebowing phenomenon came not as a post-touchdown showing off but rather _after_ the game was over, following an overtime field goal. He was on the sidelines, but the TV cameras found him.
> 
> He's never said what he was praying. The charitable thing would be to suppose it was a very exciting moment for him and he wanted to spend it with God rather than just run off celebrating like everyone else. He wouldn't by any means be the first pro athlete to do this. But because he's Tebow—Heisman winner who wears his faith on his sleeve, homeschooled son of missionaries, John 3:16 eye black, Focus on the Family TV spots, etc.—people notice it more.
> 
> I'll say this... even if the prayer is a real prayer, he _is_ acutely aware that people are watching. Tebow the Christian is like a brand. It's managed strategically. The Bible verse eye black and such is designed to be a witness by taking advantage of his celebrity.



Jack,

This is a good point. I can't remember exactly, but I think it may have been the verses painted in the eye black that started the whole Tebow phenomenon. And I'm thinking it wouldn't have reached the proportions it did without the internet. Witness the googling of the Bible verses every Saturday that he played. 

I didn't see the game (and thus just assumed we were discussing TD endzone prayers) but from what I understand, that Denver managed to win that game was "miraculous" in sports terms. Perhaps that was a factor. Unless there's an equally improbable turnaround with his play, (or unless they play some more woefully inept teams) it might be one of the last times he walks off the field a winner.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 5, 2011)

Jack K said:


> We should note that Tebow's initial on-field prayer that brought on the whole Tebowing phenomenon came not as a post-touchdown showing off but rather _after_ the game was over, following an overtime field goal. He was on the sidelines, but the TV cameras found him.
> 
> He's never said what he was praying. The charitable thing would be to suppose it was a very exciting moment for him and he wanted to spend it with God rather than just run off celebrating like everyone else. He wouldn't by any means be the first pro athlete to do this. But because he's Tebow—Heisman winner who wears his faith on his sleeve, homeschooled son of missionaries, John 3:16 eye black, Focus on the Family TV spots, etc.—people notice it more.
> 
> I'll say this... even if the prayer is a real prayer, he _is_ acutely aware that people are watching. Tebow the Christian is like a brand. It's managed strategically. The Bible verse eye black and such is designed to be a witness by taking advantage of his celebrity.




Thanks, those are excellent points.


----------



## Goodcheer68 (Nov 10, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Do you think rooting for sports teams is an appropriate priority for your daily petitions to God?
> 
> *Or thanking him for touchdowns?*


Has anyone here prayed that God would help them in their jobs or have given thanks for a situation that has turned out well at work? I think the problem is that people forget that this is Tebow's job. It is not just some fun thing to do on the weekend. His career/livelihood depends on the amount of touchdowns he makes. So it is not frivolous in that sense.


----------

