# A Poll for Baptists (Sorry, Presbyterians!)



## blhowes (Apr 15, 2008)

OK, fellow Baptists: are you a divine right Baptist - meaning that you believe that Baptist is the only system of church government taught in the Scriptures, or are you a best system Baptist - meaning that you believe that Baptist is just the "best system" of church government (of several) taught in the Bible?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

blhowes said:


> OK, fellow Baptists: are you a divine right Baptist - meaning that you believe that Baptist is the only system of church government taught in the Scriptures, or are you a best system Baptist - meaning that you believe that Baptist is just the "best system" of church government (of several) taught in the Bible?



Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?


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## Coram Deo (Apr 15, 2008)




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## blhowes (Apr 15, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?


Was I THAT obvious?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

blhowes said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
> ...



Ever so slightly.


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## blhowes (Apr 15, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel Ritchie said:
> ...


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## Herald (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm not so sure Baptist is a polity. Elder rule is a polity and that is what I subscribe to.


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## Herald (Apr 15, 2008)

Hey! Why don't we just ask, "Who's better, Baptists or Presbyterians?"


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## CovenantalBaptist (Apr 15, 2008)

Baptists (and I really mean Reformed Baptist) are associational, not denominational. But they do have polity just like the Presbyterians. See here for some historical documentation on Baptist polity.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 15, 2008)

Congregational Plural Elder Rule here. 

This was a great four views book.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Who-Runs-Church-Government-Counterpoints/dp/0310246075]Amazon.com: Who Runs the Church?: 4 Views on Church Government (Counterpoints: Church Life): Dr. Peter Toon,Dr. L. Roy Taylor,Dr. Paige Patterson,Sam E. Waldron,Steven B. Cowan,Stanley N. Gundry: Books[/ame]


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## VictorBravo (Apr 15, 2008)

So who is going to start a thread for the poor neglected paedobaptist Congregationalists? Alas and avast. . . .


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## raekwon (Apr 15, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> I'm not so sure Baptist is a polity. Elder rule is a polity and that is what I subscribe to.





PuritanCovenanter said:


> Congregational Plural Elder Rule here.



Every Baptist church I know of that has elders is actually not ruled by the elders, but rather "led" by the elders and ruled by the congregation (which is still an improvement over the usual single pastor/staff-deacons-congregation model we see in most Baptist churches).

How is elder *rule* compatible with the Baptist distinctive of congregational government?


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## smhbbag (Apr 15, 2008)

> So who is going to start a thread for the poor neglected paedobaptist Congregationalists? Alas and avast. . . .



What about calvinistic credobaptists who want Presbyterian polity? That's me.

MHO, the Presbyterian polity, with a small amount of latitude, is the only polity permissible in the scriptures. 

Can I vote in the Presbyterian poll?


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## Pilgrim (Apr 15, 2008)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> This was a great four views book.
> 
> Amazon.com: Who Runs the Church?: 4 Views on Church Government (Counterpoints: Church Life): Dr. Peter Toon,Dr. L. Roy Taylor,Dr. Paige Patterson,Sam E. Waldron,Steven B. Cowan,Stanley N. Gundry: Books



 I thought it was particularly good in allowing the contributors more interaction with each other (with the surrejoinders) than those books normally do.


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## Grymir (Apr 15, 2008)

I voted, we Presbyterians will not be ignored. 

(See other thread for precedence )


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## DMcFadden (Apr 15, 2008)

Grymir said:


> I voted, we Presbyterians will not be ignored.
> 
> (See other thread for precedence )





Anyone with El Rushbo as an avatar is in no danger of being ignored!

Baptist polity (I have actually lectured on it in seminary several times as a guest lecturer) is a funny animal. In the ordinances, er . . . ah . . . "sacraments" for you Presbyterian folks, baptists spend so much time explaining that it REALLY does NOT mean this, that, or the other thing, that by the time we are done we end up with a doctrine of the "real absence." In our governance, we may be firmly committed to doing what we do, but for reasons that are somewhat epistemically lame. Most baptists, for example, will admit that one can "legitimately" adduce biblical precedent and precept to "support" any of at least three forms of polity.

It you examine the broader historical matrix in which a particular polity became popular, it is not surprising that episcopacy tends to seem obvious to people who live under monarchy, presbyterian government seems clear and compelling to those exposed to a parliamentary system, and congregational polity only surfaces when there are lots of people making "democratic" noises. Perhaps unlike some of my sisters and brothers with other forms, baptists are often willing to allow the role of holy expedience and sanctified pragmaticism in the development of the baptist approach to church government.

Still, nobody is more stubborn than a baptist. So, biblically, there is ONLY one way to do it . . . OUR way (even if we admit that expedience has as much to do with why we do it this way as anything).


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## raekwon (Apr 15, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > I voted, we Presbyterians will not be ignored.
> ...



I think that such an avatar might make it a lot _easier_ for one to be ignored, to be honest.


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## mshingler (Apr 15, 2008)

raekwon said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not so sure Baptist is a polity. Elder rule is a polity and that is what I subscribe to.
> ...



The church I pastor (teaching elder might be more applicable) would be an exception. This church recently went from the typical pastor/deacon/congregation Baptist Structure to elder rule. 
Is this compatible with the Baptist distinctive of congregationalism? I don't know. On the one hand, the congregation still votes to affirm some decisions, including the appointment of a new elder, although that vote of affirmation is not binding. The elders still have the final authority to make the decisions. On the other hand, I think we are more concerned with being compatible with Scripture than being compatible with Baptist distinctives.


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## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> Grymir said:
> 
> 
> > I voted, we Presbyterians will not be ignored.
> ...



Do you have the audio of any of those lectures in Mp3 format so that you could share them with us, Dennis?


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## Herald (Apr 15, 2008)

raekwon said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not so sure Baptist is a polity. Elder rule is a polity and that is what I subscribe to.
> ...



Rae, I can only speak for my church. The elders make all decisions that are theological in nature. The pastor and elder positions are voted on by the congregation. Issues that have to do with budget, or admitting or terminating membership are voted on my the membership. Our elders are very good at listening to the congregation. Any minister of the gospel who is oblivious to the voice of the those he ministers to is going to have problems. When we went from monthly to weekly communion there was no vote, although the pastor preached on the topic for a month before informing the church of the coming change.


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