# The Establishment Principal



## Bladestunner316 (Apr 10, 2007)

What is the establishment principal?


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## Ginny Dohms (Apr 10, 2007)

This helps define it somewhat; probably a lot better than I could:

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: SHOULD THE WALL COME TUMBLIN' DOWN?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4044/is_200310/ai_n9319193

This describes it from the angle of the Church of Scotland, under the influence of Thomas Chalmers, where much of the original idea seems to stem. About midway through the article there is a section called: The Church of Scotland, an Established Church

http://www.freechurch.org/resources/history/chalmers2.htm

Or this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruption_of_1843

Hope that helps.


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## Jie-Huli (Apr 10, 2007)

For a somewhat thorough overview of the establishment principle (from a church which actively supports it), see the following series from the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland:

*The Establishment Principle*

Part 1: http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/Magazines/fpm/2001/April/article3.php

Part 2: http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/Magazines/fpm/2001/May/article4.php

part 3: http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/Magazines/fpm/2001/June/article4.php

Needless to say, it is often closely linked with a post-millenial eschatological view, though much of it could be affirmed by those of an amillennial view as well.

Blessings,

Jie-Huli


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 10, 2007)

See also:
Statement of the Difference - Chapter 7: Brief View of the Evidence for the Exercise of Civil Authority About Religion.
Thomas M'Crie
http://www.naphtali.com/establishments.htm

William Cunningham
Relation Between Church and State
http://www.naphtali.com/churchstate1.htm
The Westminster Confession on the Relation Between Church and State
http://www.naphtali.com/churchstate2.htm


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## ADKing (Apr 10, 2007)

The above referenced articles are all very useful and will give you a full picture. More briefly, however, it is what we confess in WLC 191 in answer to what is the second petition (Thy Kingdom Come). Part of what we are praying for is that the church will be "countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate". (By the way, have those churches that hold to the American revisions ever altered this statement in the LC?--Chris, do you know?). 

Since Presbyterians have historically believed that the magistrate has a responsibility to uphold _both_ tables of the moral law he is responsible to be a terror to those who do evil (e.g. notorious and obstinate violators of the 1st and 2nd commandment). But he is also to reward those that do good. He should therefore provide for the good of the church in his land. This has often taken the form of financial support but it does not necessarily have to. Since there are many prophecies in the OT relating to kings being the "nursing fathers" of the church we have great confidence not only that this should take place but in fact that it will.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm not aware it has; the PCUSA, ARP, and UPC all left it unchanged.


ADKing said:


> The above referenced articles are all very useful and will give you a full picture. More briefly, however, it is what we confess in WLC 191 in answer to what is the second petition (Thy Kingdom Come). Part of what we are praying for is that the church will be "countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate". (By the way, have those churches that hold to the American revisions ever altered this statement in the LC?--Chris, do you know?).
> 
> Since Presbyterians have historically believed that the magistrate has a responsibility to uphold _both_ tables of the moral law he is responsible to be a terror to those who do evil (e.g. notorious and obstinate violators of the 1st and 2nd commandment). But he is also to reward those that do good. He should therefore provide for the good of the church in his land. This has often taken the form of financial support but it does not necessarily have to. Since there are many prophecies in the OT relating to kings being the "nursing fathers" of the church we have great confidence not only that this should take place but in fact that it will.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 11, 2007)

WLC 109 was edited in 1788 to delete the reference to "tolerating a false religion" but the clause in WLC 191 must have slipped past the anti-theocratic censors.  

Lee Irons makes note of this inconsistency as well:



> (4) The church “countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate” (WLC # 191)
> 
> The second instance in the Larger Catechism where implicit hermeneutical ripple effects of the 1788 revision can be detected, is found in the answer to question 191. This case is particularly relevant, since it is one that Bahnsen himself would want to acknowledge. In the second petition of the Lord’s prayer, which is “Thy Kingdom come,” we are to pray that “the church … [would be] countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate.” These words have a very definite meaning in the context of the original Confession, with its Erastian leanings. Recall, according to the 1646 Confession, the civil magistrate “hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses of worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed.” To Theonomy “countenance and maintain” the church must necessarily include all of those activities with respect to the church if the original intent is strictly followed.
> 
> But this would contradict the intent of the divines seated in Philadelphia in 1788. Although they chose not to remove these words, they apparently determined to put upon them a different construction and interpretation, which they have made abundantly clear by their explicit amendments. Thus, the civil magistrate’s responsibility of countenancing and maintaining the church is not understood by the American Presbyterian church in an establishmentarian sense of giving preference to one denomination over another. To “countenance and maintain the church” is now understood in the manner defined in the revised language of WCF XXIII:3: “Yet as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest.” The meaning of WLC # 191 in the American Presbyterian context is different than the meaning of WLC # 191 in the original Westminster Standards (the Confession and Catechisms taken as a hermeneutical unit). The hermeneutical implications of the changed context in which the Larger Catechism now functions must be reckoned with.



There was a previous discussion of WLC 191 and the establishment principle as noted here and here.

John Kennedy of Dingwall: [The Establishment Principle is not only] “worth living for, but a principle worth dying for."


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 12, 2007)

Thank's Gentleman!


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