# Refute of John Gerstner by Zane Hodges



## Herald (Feb 14, 2007)

While I was doing a search on a particular point of theology I happened upon this article by Zane Hodges. I am sure it is not new to many of you, but I found it rather interesting. Having read Gerstner's critique of dispensationalism, I found Hodge's refutation an engaging read. I post it here for your edification.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Calvin.html


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## bookslover (Feb 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> While I was doing a search on a particular point of theology I happened upon this article by Zane Hodges. I am sure it is not new to many of you, but I found it rather interesting. Having read Gerstner's critique of dispensationalism, I found Hodge's refutation an engaging read. I post it here for your edification.
> 
> http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Calvin.html



As I remember, he was on the wrong side of the Lorship Salvation controversy some years ago.

By the way, Baptist In Crisis, judging by your avatar, you don't look particularly as if you're in crisis. That's a nice, relaxed looking photo you've got there!

Hey! This is my 600th post. Do I win a new car, or something?


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## Staphlobob (Feb 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> While I was doing a search on a particular point of theology I happened upon this article by Zane Hodges. I am sure it is not new to many of you, but I found it rather interesting. Having read Gerstner's critique of dispensationalism, I found Hodge's refutation an engaging read. I post it here for your edification.
> http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Calvin.html




I only got so far as ... "But we are never told by this writer that the dispensational/Plymouth Brethren view of saving faith has its roots in Reformation theology!"

Hodge seems to confuse (deliberately?) assurance with limited atonement. So I quit then.


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## AV1611 (Feb 15, 2007)

bookslover said:


> As I remember, he was on the wrong side of the Lorship Salvation controversy some years ago.



Yes he wrote a book entitled _Absolutely Free!_ which is rank antinomianism. But in order to counter the antinomianism of his postion he holds to millennial exclusion i.e. some Christians will go to hell for 1000 years if they do not live holy lives which stems the teaching of G H Lang (who incidently spoke at the Gospel Hall I left way back).

In my humble opinion Zane Hodges gets a big


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## turmeric (Feb 15, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> But in order to counter the antinomianism of his postion he holds to millennial exclusion i.e. some Christians will go to hell for 1000 years if they do not live holy lives



_That's_ a new spin on "conditional forgiveness!" Is this another example of Dispensationalists "sticking to Scripture rather than the mere teachings of men?"


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## Herald (Feb 15, 2007)

> By the way, Baptist In Crisis, judging by your avatar, you don't look particularly as if you're in crisis. That's a nice, relaxed looking photo you've got there!



Don't be fooled. Can't you see the maniacal smile?  

Seriously, I no longer consider myself a "Baptist in Crisis." The crisis is over, but I'm stuck with the screen name. My crisis had more to do with my departure from dispensationalism. I thought I was caught in a tractor beam pulling me towards Presbyterianism. I feared leaving behind all that I held dear, but I had to obey God rather than my traditions. After prayer and study I found that my "crisis" was not a crisis at all. While I have abandoned dispensationalism, I am still solidly Baptist.

I know...more info than you were looking for.

....but just to be safe, watch out for tha maniacal smile.


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## Calvibaptist (Feb 15, 2007)

_This is precisely the issue. In Reformed thought good works are a condition for salvation. A deft Reformed thinker, like Samuel Logan, might add that good works are not a cause of salvation, while faith is both a cause and a condition for this.30 But the bottom line is that, for Reformed Theology, there are two conditions for final salvation—faith and works!

This articulation of things is clearly foreign, not only to the Apostle Paul, but also to Calvin and Luther, who confronted essentially the same theology in Roman Catholicism._

This is taken from Hodge's critique. I must say I made it further through this than I did his book _Absolutely Free._ Hodges obviously misunderstands what the Reformation was all about. It was not primarily about final salvation. It was about justification.

Final judgment is based on works, which are the necessary evidence of justification that has already been declared. Justification is by faith alone. Hodges (and other Dispensationalists) obviously confuse a sub-topic (justification) with the major heading (salvation).


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## Kevin (Feb 15, 2007)

bookslover said:


> As I remember, he was on the wrong side of the Lorship Salvation controversy some years ago.
> 
> By the way, Baptist In Crisis, judging by your avatar, you don't look particularly as if you're in crisis. That's a nice, relaxed looking photo you've got there!
> 
> Hey! This is my 600th post. Do I win a new car, or something?



yes you do! It is in the mail...(or something... )


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

bookslover said:


> As I remember, he was on the wrong side of the Lorship Salvation controversy some years ago.
> 
> By the way, Baptist In Crisis, judging by your avatar, you don't look particularly as if you're in crisis. That's a nice, relaxed looking photo you've got there!
> 
> Hey! This is my 600th post. Do I win a new car, or something?


Here you go!


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Yes he wrote a book entitled _Absolutely Free!_ which is rank antinomianism. But in order to counter the antinomianism of his postion he holds to millennial exclusion i.e. some Christians will go to hell for 1000 years if they do not live holy lives which stems the teaching of G H Lang (who incidently spoke at the Gospel Hall I left way back).
> 
> In my humble opinion Zane Hodges gets a big


 That sounds like a shorter but nastier Dispensatioanlist Purgatory, no? Thanks, but no thanks, Zane. I'm with you on this, Richard.


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## Herald (Feb 15, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Here you go!



A Yugo?!!!

Say it ain't so!


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> A Yugo?!!!
> 
> Say it ain't so!


Your fears are indeed correct - It's a Yugo.


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## bookslover (Feb 15, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Here you go!



Ummm...red, yellow, and black, with yellow wheels...my favorite. 

Thanks...I think


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## bookslover (Feb 16, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I thought I was caught in a tractor beam pulling me towards Presbyterianism.



You got something against Presbyterianism, boy? You wanna step outside and say that?


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## Herald (Feb 16, 2007)

bookslover said:


> You got something against Presbyterianism, boy? You wanna step outside and say that?




Who you calling "boy"? They call me Mr. Credo!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 16, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I thought I was caught in a tractor beam pulling me towards Presbyterianism.






"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."


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## rwinger61 (Feb 18, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I thought I was caught in a tractor beam pulling me towards Presbyterianism.



That tractor beam caught me, but it took about 20 years. It was a long, hard, road from Independent Fundamental Dispensational Baptist to a Covenantal Presbyterian.


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## Theoretical (Feb 18, 2007)

Andrew, that is an AWESOME emoticon.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 18, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> Andrew, that is an AWESOME emoticon.



Thanks!


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## Ivan (Feb 18, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Ummm...red, yellow, and black, with yellow wheels...my favorite.
> 
> Thanks...I think




Yeah, but the stripe matches the wheels...that's cool.

I'll take it...but I'm not paying for it.


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## Herald (Feb 18, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."



Are you the Borg?


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## Herald (Feb 18, 2007)

rwinger61 said:


> That tractor beam caught me, but it took about 20 years. It was a long, hard, road from Independent Fundamental Dispensational Baptist to a Covenantal Presbyterian.



Well the tractor beam had me but it had a latent dispensational virus in its operational program. This caused a massive failure it is hyper-covenantal drive and I was able to escape. I immediately headed for the Gill system and hid on one of the congreational moons of the planet Credo. Our defenses are high and we feel confident we can repluse any attack.


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## rwinger61 (Feb 18, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Well the tractor beam had me but it had a latent dispensational virus in its operational program. This caused a massive failure it is hyper-covenantal drive and I was able to escape. I immediately headed for the Gill system and hid on one of the congreational moons of the planet Credo. Our defenses are high and we feel confident we can repluse any attack.



My downfall was an attack by the "Continuity between the Testaments", as my "baptizo=immersion only" had already been destroyed by the Methodists. When I showed up at a Banner Conference in the early 90's as the only Methodist (still credo), the Protestant Reformed and PCA folks made short work of me. Within 10 years I had my kids baptized, and the rest is history.


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