# Brother to stumble, weaker brother, witness



## Pittzburghkid (Apr 1, 2013)

This question relates to alcohol consumption. The street I live on is a very social one. Spring is coming to Pittsburgh, finally, and people will begin to have parties, including myself. Assuming I consume alcohol in a responsible way what are my responsibilities as far as my peers and the weaker brother, causing your brother to stumble scriptures are concerned? There is always beer and wine at these events and although most are moderate consumers a few people in my social circle drink too much occasionally. Sometimes I feel like abstaining presents a better witness. Other times I am sure that temperate consumption presents a better witness.


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## MarieP (Apr 1, 2013)

Pittzburghkid said:


> Other times I am sure that temperate consumption presents a better witness.



I'm not saying it's a sin to drink, but why do you believe temperate consumption would be a "better witness" in some situations? How would *not* drinking cause a brother to stumble? The concept of Christian liberty began with things that once were part of the life of the people of God but now no longer commanded because they were done away with in Christ.


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## A5pointer (Apr 1, 2013)

This issue of weaker and stronger seems to be misunderstood by many. While it seems a good idea to examine the effects of one's behavior on others the text in Romans does not apply to this situation. Read it carefully and you will see that it is a totally different issue.


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## Loopie (Apr 1, 2013)

Bruce,

If I may ask, are there not principles in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 that still apply to the situation regarding alcohol consumption? Even though I understand that the immediate contexts of those passages are not at all talking about alcohol in any way, that does not necessarily mean there is no underlying principle that ought to govern the actions of all Christians at all times and in all cultures. 

If we are not to use those passages in any way as a means of governing our behavior concerning alcohol, then what should be our position regarding the consumption of alcohol? Is this something that Christians are allowed to do, or forbidden to do? It would seem that the answer is "it depends", yet we must then ask: "depends on what?" How are we to know when it is right or wrong to partake of alcohol? Do we not get our guidance from Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8? I am simply trying to better understand the position that you are taking.


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## Pergamum (Apr 1, 2013)

Jesus was so insensitive during his first miracle.

Maybe the best long-term solution is to teach the friend better bible principles.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 1, 2013)

Also, if you do not drink at all during these get-togethers but then drink socially elsewhere and are seen by any of the folks at the get-together, they will likely just think "yep, there he is, just one more Christian hypocrite!" That news will spread a lot faster and further than you not drinking in the first place.


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## Scott1 (Apr 2, 2013)

Like it or not,
many will judge your Christianity by whether or not you are drinking alcoholic beverages.
While drinking is not strictly prohibited in Scripture, there are many qualifications.
If people were honest, many do drink for a "Buzz" which is only a stepped down form of intoxication or inebriation. That's what they are seeking, and the world knows it.

There are many alcoholics, some recovering, and many young people who are tempted to indiscretion or breaking the law with it. 

Be consistent in your witness.
Including that example you set for your family, as well as your neighbors.


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## A5pointer (Apr 2, 2013)

Loopie said:


> Bruce,
> 
> If I may ask, are there not principles in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 that still apply to the situation regarding alcohol consumption? Even though I understand that the immediate contexts of those passages are not at all talking about alcohol in any way, that does not necessarily mean there is no underlying principle that ought to govern the actions of all Christians at all times and in all cultures.
> 
> If we are not to use those passages in any way as a means of governing our behavior concerning alcohol, then what should be our position regarding the consumption of alcohol? Is this something that Christians are allowed to do, or forbidden to do? It would seem that the answer is "it depends", yet we must then ask: "depends on what?" How are we to know when it is right or wrong to partake of alcohol? Do we not get our guidance from Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8? I am simply trying to better understand the position that you are taking.



If I am oversimplifying let me know. The passages seem to speak against engaging in a known liberty in the presence of those who in their weaker state of mind see said liberties as sin thus tempting them to engage in activity they see as sin. I think it would be prudent to abstain in the presence of anyone who has problems with alcohol and has a desire to abstain themselves. This may lead them to act in a way "detrimental" not sinful as the text indicates. Interestingly the weak are admonished against judging brothers who engage in liberties. I know many who misunderstand this and are not clear on who it is that are referred to as the strong and the weak.They generally see the drinker as the weak brother and themselves(those against drinking) as the strong brother. I do not see alcohol consumption as sinful and like many reformers feel it important to defend liberties to avoid distortion of the work of Christ by adding do's and dont's toward legalism. Please feel free to comment. Does this make any sense?


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## JoannaV (Apr 2, 2013)

MarieP said:


> Pittzburghkid said:
> 
> 
> > Other times I am sure that temperate consumption presents a better witness.
> ...




Drinking responsibly can model how alcohol should be used, whilst abstaining doesn't model anything, except perhaps that it is possible to abstain. So depends on your audience I suppose.


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## Miss Marple (Apr 2, 2013)

Scott, in re:

"If people were honest, many do drink for a "Buzz" which is only a stepped down form of intoxication or inebriation. That's what they are seeking, and the world knows it."

Is it not ok to drink until your heart is merry? "Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works." Ecc 9:7

I am not seeking a defense for my favorite sin. I have maybe four ounces of alcohol a year.


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## Scott1 (Apr 2, 2013)

Miss Marple said:


> Scott, in re:
> 
> "If people were honest, many do drink for a "Buzz" which is only a stepped down form of intoxication or inebriation. That's what they are seeking, and the world knows it."
> 
> ...



This is a difficult area because there is a lot more the Bible has to say about this. Drinking with "a merry heart" might be to an alcoholic something quite different, or a to a teenager struggling with the temptation to violate the law, or drive under its influence.

It's hard to imagine the amount you mention as an excess, but one could idolatrize any amount.

Idolatry is a root sin, and how man seeks pleasure in things, like the escapism of alcohol is a very fine line. It has been one of the, if not the great national sins of our country. Ruined more lives than almost anything.

While the Scripture does not strictly prohibit it, it is hard to have sympathy for it, the industry that markets it, or the pretenses under which it is sold. But, that's getting into some opinion.

But we cannot consider its use, in a vacuum, we must still love our neighbor.


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## Jack K (Apr 2, 2013)

You know, I used to worry about this a lot more than I do now. Our culture (both the wider culture and the evangelical culture) is weird when it comes to drinking. So I'd wonder: If I have a beer, will people think I'm being careless about sin and insensitive to alcoholics... or will they think I'm enjoying freedom in Christ and being hospitable? And if I _don't_ have a beer, will people think I'm being uptight and legalistic... or will they think I'm being sensitive and sensible?

I finally came to see that, aside from a few overly-opinionated and judgmental people I wouldn't be able to please no matter what I did... most other people _didn't care_ what I was drinking. I was way too worried about myself and my image. If the rest of my behavior at a party showed that I was kind to others and acted responsibly, whether or not I had a beer in my hand made little difference.

So I would suggest you steer clear of engaging in or supporting drunkenness, but otherwise just do whatever you feel like and don't get all weird over it like I once did.


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## Loopie (Apr 2, 2013)

A5pointer said:


> If I am oversimplifying let me know. The passages seem to speak against engaging in a known liberty in the presence of those who in their weaker state of mind see said liberties as sin thus tempting them to engage in activity they see as sin. I think it would be prudent to abstain in the presence of anyone who has problems with alcohol and has a desire to abstain themselves. This may lead them to act in a way "detrimental" not sinful as the text indicates. Interestingly the weak are admonished against judging brothers who engage in liberties. I know many who misunderstand this and are not clear on who it is that are referred to as the strong and the weak.They generally see the drinker as the weak brother and themselves(those against drinking) as the strong brother. I do not see alcohol consumption as sinful and like many reformers feel it important to defend liberties to avoid distortion of the work of Christ by adding do's and dont's toward legalism. Please feel free to comment. Does this make any sense?



I think I understand your perspective, and I would agree with it. Interestingly, in reading this passage and trying to apply it to the consumption of alcohol, I never viewed the 'stronger' brother as the one who stood against it, but I can see how many people could misunderstand the text in that way by viewing the 'weaker' brother as the one who actually partakes responsibly. 

When you hinted earlier that many misunderstand or misuse those passages, I thought you were intending to say that those passages cannot give us any guidance at all on the use of alcohol. I did not realize that what you meant was that people have often misunderstood how to apply 'weaker' and 'stronger' in the proper sense. Thank you again for helping me to better understand where you are coming from.


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## littlepeople (Apr 2, 2013)

I've always thought about it this way: if there is a weaker brother present (someone who will violate their conscience by following my example) I will abstain. I've never once been in this situation, so I've never been able to put it in practice. If the worry is that I will offend a legalist, then pour me another pint!


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## Pergamum (Apr 2, 2013)

What constitutes a "buzz?" And is such a thing sinful?


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## Tim (Apr 2, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> What constitutes a "buzz?" And is such a thing sinful?



Or, may we ask, what constitutes a "merry heart"?


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## Jack K (Apr 2, 2013)

littlepeople said:


> I've always thought about it this way: if there is a weaker brother present (someone who will violate their conscience by following my example) I will abstain. I've never once been in this situation, so I've never been able to put it in practice. If the worry is that I will offend a legalist, then pour me another pint!



And that's the right way to apply the Romans 14 principle! Self-righteous people who protest that you're required to endorse their legalism have it backwards.


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## Pittzburghkid (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses. Jack K, I found your response particularly helpful as I may indeed worry about it too much.


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## Tirian (Apr 3, 2013)

Jeremy,

Demonstrating the sensible and reponsible use of God's gift of alcohol is really important. If you know of a believer that struggles with controlling their intake, or of an unbeliever who is trying to get things under control then I think you have a responsibility. The most helpful thing you can do is be the wingman and support the weaker brother when others offer them a drink. In a social situation this is probably the hardest temptation to overcome. For example, you notice a brother whom you know to be struggling with alcohol arrive at the party - so why not finish your drink, and then chat with them and have some non-alcoholic bev's until your friend has become comfortable at saying no to people when they hand him or her a drink (stepping in if necessary to redirect the issue to yourself and say "thanks, we're OK with our chilled water at the moment"). Also the first 5-15 minutes will be the hardest for struggling brother in overcoming their own cravings - so if you can be there with them chatting and drink NA drinks and acting normal, then it will help.

For the alcoholic, whether believer or unbeliever, the first drink is too much, and 1,000 will never be enough.

Once the first NA drink is in their hands and they feel comfortable, accepted and confident it will be easier for them.

Cheers,
Matt


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## Scott1 (Apr 3, 2013)

Also, given the number of deaths and maiming in automobile crashes, broken homes, lost time at work, drunks in the gutter of the streets in virtually all of America's cities, the horrific intoxication problems on Indian reservations, the rapes caused in its state,the number of teenagers who die, commit crimes or have illicit sex on alcohol 'binge.'

The world recognizes alcohol intoxication as a means of losing inhibition in order to be sexually immoral, get in fights, and as a means of (idolatrous) peer pressure, identification with the world.

This cannot be overlooked as merely a personal preference.

It involves loving one's neighbor, too.

There are many, many struggling alcoholics out there.

I just heard a sermon by Adrian Rogers, head of the Southern Baptists, for temperance. I don't quite agree with his Scripture case, but he made one.

Look at how many Baptists are going to judge your Christianity by it, rightly or wrongly. Look at Christians in foreign cultures who associate it with worldliness and will stumble by it. That is very real in the context of cross culture missions, too.


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## Pergamum (Apr 3, 2013)

Scott:

In cross-cultural missions, I think it is wise to abstain from any foods that would hinder someone from coming to your house as a guest (and thus maybe hearing the Gospel). 

However, some evangelical groups have institutionalized tee-totalerism (if that's a word) into their church constitutions. I recently heard of one local national church group here that will fire pastors who drink alcohol (in any amount). This despite very bad money-usage habits and corruption at some levels within the church structure. 

In this case, a strong case can be made to teach these immature third world churches to mature rather than to become a tee-totaller oneself.


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## Andres (Apr 3, 2013)

JoannaV said:


> Drinking responsibly can model how alcohol should be used, whilst abstaining doesn't model anything, except perhaps that it is possible to abstain.



This is my line of thinking. I have a few family members that _really _enjoy alcohol. I would say that about 90% of the time they consume alcohol, they abuse it. Oftentimes when I am with them and we have a drink, they expect me to consume like they do - drink after drink. When I only have two and tell them I'm done, I believe it sends the message that alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation and responsibly.


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## Tripel (Apr 3, 2013)

Jack K said:


> Our culture (both the wider culture and the evangelical culture) is weird when it comes to drinking.



Exactly. Way too big of a deal is made of alcohol. 

At one end of the spectrum you have total disregard for your behavior and your Christian witness. At the other end of the spectrum you have a crippling worry of how others will think of you. 

Don't do either. There's a lot of ground in between. Have your drinks, be responsible, and be a source of joy and encouragement to others.


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## Tripel (Apr 3, 2013)

Scott1 said:


> Look at Christians in foreign cultures who associate it with worldliness and will stumble by it. That is very real in the context of cross culture missions, too.



In some cultures, alcohol is a way of life in the same manner as water or coffee. Those who choose not to drink draw attention to themselves and come across as weird. 

Christians are called to be holy, not weird.


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## Scott1 (Apr 3, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> In cross-cultural missions, I think it is wise to abstain from any foods that would hinder someone from coming to your house as a guest (and thus maybe hearing the Gospel).



Yes, and we both can think of several groups that this is true in.

But, in addition, Christians in many other contexts (e.g. in other countries associate drinking alcohol with worldliness, and thus the ungodly). And there are substantial communions in the US that do the same. It's not something that we can easily dismiss in loving our neighbor.

Christianity is not only about us.

Teaching a weaker brother,
that's a big topic, a lifetime one.

But with the enormous sin of alcoholism in this world, so many affected by it- it will not be overcome in this life.

There are so many qualifications on the use of alcohol it is really hard to justify its use on that basis.

I don't think we can, or should.


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## Pittzburghkid (Apr 4, 2013)

I love what martin Luther has to say on the argument that because it is abused it should be forsaken. 

“Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall then we prohibit and abolish women?" Martin Luther


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## Scott1 (Apr 4, 2013)

Pittzburghkid said:


> I love what martin Luther has to say on the argument that because it is abused it should be forsaken.
> 
> “Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall then we prohibit and abolish women?" Martin Luther



That's one way to look at it, but not the only way.
The way we behave around, or toward women might be the issue.

Even if a woman isn't intending to seduce, biblical modesty would require she dress modestly. Granted, that's not always easy to define, but that doesn't mean we don't try. We must try, and with a right heart.

And I trust the point has sunk in, that evaluation of the person drinking is not the only issue here.

What is the duty to the struggling alcoholic? or the young person considering 'binge'? or to the Baptist (or used to be Methodist) that causes separation?

They all may be weaker brethren, or not brethren at all.

But public consumption of alcohol has to be considered in relation to loving one's neighbor.


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## Pittzburghkid (Apr 4, 2013)

Certainly you are not expected to know when someone is thinking about a binge or if their an alcoholic unbeknownst to you, that is silly. I respect your position, I just do not agree.


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## Scott1 (Apr 4, 2013)

Pittzburghkid said:


> Certainly you are not expected to know when someone is thinking about a binge or if their an alcoholic unbeknownst to you, that is silly. I respect your position, I just do not agree.



We only know that it is a very, very common problem- evident on the streets of every major city and in the homes of people you know. We cannot be oblivious to that.


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## JoannaV (Apr 4, 2013)

*To me* it would seem that dressing modestly = drinking moderately, whereas abstinence would be akin to keeping women inside.

Within cross-cultural contexts there are lots of factors. If I and my Christian peers are visible to the public and must be seen to appear "good" by cultural standards, then that is one thing. (For example, going to Thailand to teach English in a Christian-run school.) But in other scenarios that may not be the case - perhaps instead as a tourist in Bangkok I will go to the bar for a drink and strike up a conversation with other drinkers.

I know in previous threads people have mentioned gluttony. Obesity is a major problem so should we abstain from food? Of course the response to that is that food is necessary to life. But...we could abstain from sugar?

Another thing to consider is that often in our churches recovering alcoholics can be ashamed to admit such. So we probably do need to be more aware of the possibility that those around us are struggling with such things. But also encourage a culture where it is ok to admit to such struggles.

I just haven't yet encountered the culture that Scott has.

Hmm I don't think the choice of whether to have a drink or not in an establishment that serves alcohol is very likely to aversely affect the person on the other side of the restaurant who sees you, a stranger, drinking :-/


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## Pergamum (Apr 4, 2013)

How are we to deal with Jesus' first miracle? He did not merely change a thimble full of water to wine, but he changed a whole lot. And this after the guests had already drank. 

Are we to charge Jesus with insensitivity or state that he contributed to the sins of others? Or that drunkenness did not exist at that time or was a rarity? Or that wine was really grape juice? 


Agreeing with Scott a bit here, it does seem that the social context of where one drinks is important, though. I do not feel comfortable even entering bars (and I generally do not), since those are places not to enjoy a drink with a meal, but to drink. But, it seems that a drink in the course of a meal (the meal being the focus), at an eating establishment, is okay. 

Also, what one drinks also seems important. I don't plan to ever touch hard, concentrated liquor unless I am dying in a snow-storm and a dog with a cask of brandy saves me (like in the cartoons), or if in extreme pain, or dying. It seems like only in the past 300 years or so mankind has been able to distill liquor to its present potent form. 100 proof whiskey did not exist in Christ's day, right? An extra measure of caution might be needed in our own day.


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## Sgt Grit (Apr 5, 2013)

If Gods Word says it wrong or you feel you need to hide it than you should not do it.


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## Scott1 (Apr 5, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> How are we to deal with Jesus' first miracle? He did not merely change a thimble full of water to wine, but he changed a whole lot. And this after the guests had already drank.
> 
> Are we to charge Jesus with insensitivity or state that he contributed to the sins of others? Or that drunkenness did not exist at that time or was a rarity? Or that wine was really grape juice?
> 
> ...



Good observations.

It illustrates one underlying aspect of this difficult area that has, is, and will continue to cause so much division in the Body. We cannot view ourselves as an island unto ourselves. We witness for the Lord, and we must love our neighbor.

I was on a short term missions trip once that had a signed honor code not to drink (Christian organization). Three others said they were going to drink because we were out "alone," would it bother me. I said yes. They drank anyway. Later, God used the experience with a group of Islamic women who "shunned" the others who drank, but were open to me. They even let me sit with them and I sang hymns to them. Only later did I come to understand how unusual this was.

Granted, it's not right to judge someone by whether they drink alcoholic beverages, just like its not right to judge someone by how they dress, or their command of the language, etc. But people do it, every day. I'm not even sure the people who drank and broke their honor code, perhaps offended me (I may have been struggling with that too, can't recall) understood the broader Christian principles at stake.

In the end, I got an audience with the Islamics, shared deep Christian truth with them, etc.

These things have also happened among the unsaved, nominal Roman Catholics, etc.

The visible effects of alcoholism are horrific in almost every major American city, it has broken many, many homes- and understandably, many are sensitive to it.

Granted, the sensitivity might be viewed as their weakness, but it might also be viewed as lawful but not expedient on our part because our highest duty is to love God and our neighbor, not seek our own way in everything.

This is a strange thing to the unregenerate.

But not at all strange to the new creature in Christ, who must live thinking about how his life impacts his neighbor. Romans 14 is one place that discusses this, but there are many, many more.

We all need to get serious about both the liberty AND the responsibility we have in Christ.

The Apostle Paul's words in I Corinthians 10 are appropriate:


> 28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
> 
> 29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
> 
> ...


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## Scott1 (Apr 5, 2013)

The lawful but not expedient aspect is particularly appropriate to a circumstance like described in the original post- a public event with many people who are not known. Indiscriminately drinking among them- men, women and children, some perhaps struggling alcoholics or "binge," some young people will be setting a life pattern.
Now, if every single neighbor there knows every neighbor, man woman and child who will be there, no outsiders or guests, and knows where they are coming from, it might be different.
But this even involves cleaning up the beer cans or smelling alcohol on others breath.


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