# Is the hymnal on the way out?



## JBaldwin (Sep 23, 2008)

Are hymnals on the way out? PLEASE...this is NOT another discussion about exclusive psalmody or instruments in worship. 

Recently, I was asked whether I thought our church should purchase hymnals. Briefly, we've been without them because of the cost. This got me thinking about the use of hymnals at all. Are they on the way out?

The trend seems to be the newer settings of hymns (eg. ruf hymnal), the contemporary settings of Psalms and the transition, especially in a lot of PCA churches, to using overhead projectors and printing words in the bulletins, I wonder if the hymnal is going to be a thing of the past in the next ten years. 



Any thoughts?


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## Gloria (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't think so...


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## JohnV (Sep 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Are hymnals on the way out? PLEASE...this is NOT another discussion about exclusive psalmody or instruments in worship.
> 
> Recently, I was asked whether I thought our church should purchase hymnals. Briefly, we've been without them because of the cost. This got me thinking about the use of hymnals at all. Are they on the way out?
> 
> ...



Our church federation is working on a new one. It will have all the Psalms in them, just like we have now, but it will also include a more thorough selection of hymns.


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## matthew11v25 (Sep 23, 2008)

I do not think Hymnals are going anywhere fast. If a church only uses songs from the Trinity or from the Psalter then it would be wasteful to discard their use and print out music for the whole church each week or buy a projector and screen. 

My church uses songs from Trinity, Psalter, RUF and Townend, etc. We have moved to printing the music or putting lyrics in the bulletin. I personally think that overheads or projectors are more efficient compared to printing out music or lyrics every week. 

I love the uniformity of a hymnal, but my church does to many songs by different sources to have all the music confined to one book.


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## JBaldwin (Sep 23, 2008)

matthew11v25 said:


> My church uses songs by RUF and Townend, etc. We have moved to printing the music or putting lyrics in the bulletin. I personally think that overheads or projectors are more efficient compared to printing out music or lyrics every week.
> 
> I love the uniformity of a hymnal, but my church does to many songs by different sources to have all the music confined to one book.



That is the way it is at our church, and from what I am hearing from my PCA friends, this is where most of the PCA churches are headed.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2008)

I assume you mean by hymnal a set of books with the lyrics inside them (what ever the lyrics may be).

Over here I hardly see them anymore although they are used in my church. Even then we tend to have other songs printed as well. I wonder if they would replace them when they get too old.

It certainly does not make financial sense (anymore) to have all the words to every song printed in a hard cover book and given to each member of the congregation. With powerpoint and OHTs I would say hymnals will be a thing of the past before long.


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## JBaldwin (Sep 23, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> I assume you mean by hymnal a set of books with the lyrics inside them (what ever the lyrics may be).
> 
> Over here I hardly see them anymore although they are used in my church. Even then we tend to have other songs printed as well. I wonder if they would replace them when they get too old.
> 
> It certainly does not make financial sense (anymore) to have all the words to every song printed in a hard cover book and given to each member of the congregation. With powerpoint and OHTs I would say hymnals will be a thing of the past before long.



Yes, I am speaking of the hardbound book with hymns and printed music.


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## Ivan (Sep 23, 2008)

I believe hymnals will be a thing of the past, sooner or later. Not saying it's a good thing.


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## yeutter (Sep 23, 2008)

*hymns psalm settings and copyright infringement*



JBaldwin said:


> The trend seems to be the newer settings of hymns (eg. ruf hymnal), the contemporary settings of Psalms and the transition, especially in a lot of PCA churches, to using overhead projectors and printing words in the bulletins, I wonder if the hymnal is going to be a thing of the past in the next ten years.
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?


I have noted the same trend. If the new settings are included in the bulletins or powerpoints, or overheads are copyrights being infringed on. If we use the older settings that is not a problem. 

The advantage of singing the Scottish Psalter, or Prayer Book Psalter, or AngloGeneva Psalter is we are singing the Psalms in the light of the Gospel. Those Psalm settings and most of the settings for the older common domain hymns are sung or chanted slowly enough so the meaning can be understood. Most of the newer gospel songs and hymn settings are influenced by the lively charismatic style of worship. 

As I said, I have noticed the same trend but do not think it is a good trend.


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## N. Eshelman (Sep 23, 2008)

Personally, I think that they are a waste of money. 

The following is serious: 

It would be a lot cheaper to have the words and music projected than in a book. If a hymnal is $25 ea. and there are 200 in ea. place of worship- think of the money that could be saved by doing it differently. 

And there is NOTHING in the RPW that could go against it- it is a circumstance.


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## JohnGill (Sep 23, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Are hymnals on the way out? PLEASE...this is NOT another discussion about exclusive psalmody or instruments in worship.
> 
> Recently, I was asked whether I thought our church should purchase hymnals. Briefly, we've been without them because of the cost. This got me thinking about the use of hymnals at all. Are they on the way out?
> 
> ...



Trinity Hymnal is supposed to be good. I believe it also has Psalms in it. If your church is going to sing outside the Psalter, then it is better to use an hymnal you can trust rather than songs of questionable theology as 'overhead' songs tend to be. Or so they are in my church. Every once and a while we sing a scripture song. The local IFB churches sing almost only scripture at their evening service on Sunday.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Personally, I think that they are a waste of money.
> 
> The following is serious:
> 
> ...



Okay I agreed with you until I started to do the maths.  Now it really depends on the church BUT lets say we have hymnals as you said at $25 each for a church of 200 people. That comes down to $5000. Now these hymnals could last for 25 years or more (lets assume 25 to make it easy). This means each hymnal costs $1 per year (ie total of $200 per year). Lets then say powerpoint projector and everything costs around $2000-3000 with maybe more if you need a laptop, then you need a _minimum_ of ten years use out of the projector before it becomes cheaper than the hymnals. In this case hymnals are cheaper then.

Of course this changes if you use the projector for other things such as sermons etc...


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## Curt (Sep 23, 2008)

I recently visited a congregation which had moved the pulpit and a large cross they had on the wall to the side so that they could project non-scriptural and non-worshipful ditties. They have hymnals and their bulletin (they did have one) listed three hymns, but I don't know why. They never even mentioned them let alone singing them.

My own congregation uses hymnals, but pays for a CCLI license so that we can also sing some newer hymns. We print them for the congregation.

Hymnals are expensive, but I don't think they're going away real soon.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 23, 2008)

We use the Trinity Hymnal, and I don't imagine that will change within our local assembly anytime soon.


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## N. Eshelman (Sep 23, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I think that they are a waste of money.
> ...



That is if the denomination keeps the same hymnal for 25 years!


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2008)

You are right, it is an assumption, but I would bet a lot of the old ones I see lying around in churches here when they are still in use are about as old as that. I know I have seen many of them printed in the 1970s.


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## Webservant (Sep 23, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> I assume you mean by hymnal a set of books with the lyrics inside them (what ever the lyrics may be).
> 
> Over here I hardly see them anymore although they are used in my church. Even then we tend to have other songs printed as well. I wonder if they would replace them when they get too old.
> 
> It certainly does not make financial sense (anymore) to have all the words to every song printed in a hard cover book and given to each member of the congregation. With powerpoint and OHTs I would say hymnals will be a thing of the past before long.


I am all for the overhead lyrics, but I would be against getting rid of hymnals. We live as though the lights will always be on, and for most of human history, we read by the light of a fire. The projected lyrics are not free, by the way. We have a CCLI license to cover reproduced music which is paid for every year.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2008)

Webservant said:


> I am all for the overhead lyrics, but I would be against getting rid of hymnals. We live as though the lights will always be on, and for most of human history, we read by the light of a fire. The projected lyrics are not free, by the way. We have a CCLI license to cover reproduced music which is paid for every year.


Thanks for pointing that out. I went through the math a few posts above and am seeing your opinion. How much is the CCLI license? It would have to be put into the equation as well. As I see it now unless you have the projector for something else and use it often for that and projecting songs is just a side job, it still makes financial sense to have hymnals.


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## Archlute (Sep 23, 2008)

The retention of the hymnal in most churches would be greatly facilitated if more than 2-3% of the congregation could read choral harmonizations. It is a failure of education, based upon a failure to appreciate and pass on God's gift of music to future generations.

The retooling of the tunes of the great hymns in our PCA congregations is a travesty, in my opinion. If I hear one more mediocre setting of "Christ Jesus Lay in Death's Strong Bands" I will burn every RUF songbook to cross my path. 

1. You cannot top Bach's chorale setting, and you shouldn't even attempt it.

2. If you want to mess with the tunes to any of these hymns, then you should write your own words as well. 99% of the settings coming out of the pens of PCA worship leaders are not worthy of a first year composition student. It would be much better if they paired them up with their own mediocre lyrics, and thus paired like with like. Otherwise there is a tremendous imbalance and dissonance left between the quality of the original lyrics and the quality of the new musical setting, in most cases.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 23, 2008)

Archlute said:


> 1. You cannot top Bach's chorale setting, and you shouldn't even attempt it.



Man after my own heart! 

I use a book of Bach chorales for the melodies and harmonies of hymns in private hymn singing. I'll use the music for various Psalms, and for hymns from the old Trinity hymnal (also have an old Lutheran Hymnal that is a trove of wonderful hymns and tunes). Sometimes I'll transcribe it in Noteworthy so everyone can follow their melodic lines.

I guess our congregation is really stuck in the past. We have three bound hymnals: the old blue Trinity, the even older Gadsby, and the Trinity Psalter. I doubt that our people would give up any of them.


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## jogri17 (Sep 23, 2008)

no, however I do think there would be an advantage to having digital copies of all of the different types.


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## Webservant (Sep 23, 2008)

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Webservant said:
> 
> 
> > I am all for the overhead lyrics, but I would be against getting rid of hymnals. We live as though the lights will always be on, and for most of human history, we read by the light of a fire. The projected lyrics are not free, by the way. We have a CCLI license to cover reproduced music which is paid for every year.
> ...


I can't get the table to display properly but click HERE for pricing.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Sep 23, 2008)

Okay so in most cases then hymnals may actually be cheaper and more economical.

Edit: In fact it is cheaper almost every time.


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## kvanlaan (Sep 23, 2008)

> I recently visited a congregation which had moved the pulpit and a large cross they had on the wall to the side so that they could project non-scriptural and non-worshipful ditties. They have hymnals and their bulletin (they did have one) listed three hymns, but I don't know why. They never even mentioned them let alone singing them.



Same here - I don't care for it (I've seen it first hand here). It seems to me that when the hymnals go as the mainstay, the projector comes out, questionable lyrics come in, the cross is moved, the pulpit disappears, and the message is diluted.


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## Grymir (Sep 23, 2008)

I can't sing very well, but with a hymnal I can at least make my voice go up or down to follow the music. Plus then I know how long to sing each note. With the overhead, singing just seems like a caucophany, instead of something worthy of singing to God. I could mention that hymnals tend to have the good o'le songs that speak of what God has done for us, and when the screen comes down at my church, I know I'm gonna get a 'Love songs for Jesus' song. But to be fair, our hymnals have way to many Gaither songs in them, along with other songs that magnify man and not God.


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## JBaldwin (Sep 23, 2008)

For the record, our church would be purchasing the Trinity hymnal. We tend to sing a lot of hymns from the Trinity hymnal anyway, but the arrangements are slightly different. 

By the way, I agree with those who complain about the RUF arrangements. There are a few really good ones, and the rest need a lot of help. 

Please keep the comments coming.


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## Curt (Sep 23, 2008)

Grymir said:


> I can't sing very well, but with a hymnal I can at least make my voice go up or down to follow the music. Plus then I know how long to sing each note. With the overhead, singing just seems like a caucophany, instead of something worthy of singing to God. I could mention that hymnals tend to have the good o'le songs that speak of what God has done for us, and when the screen comes down at my church, I know I'm gonna get a 'Love songs for Jesus' song. But to be fair, our hymnals have way to many Gaither songs in them, along with other songs that magnify man and not God.



I see we went to the same school of music. I like how those roundish things go up and down. They mystify me sometimes - but I appreciate it when they are written down around a hymn that glorifies God.


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## beej6 (Sep 23, 2008)

One thing that irks me is when visiting a (usually evangelical) church, the words are either printed or projected, but the songs are unfamiliar. How is a visitor supposed to sing along? Plus many 'modern' songs have un-rhythmic phrasing, so the net effect is only the "worship team" and regular church members can even attempt to sing. At least with a hymnal I can sing melody and/or harmony.

I realize I'm in the minority as I can read music and have been a music director for a church. Still, the hymnal is a prayer book that happens to have music in it. A secondary (tertiary?) educational function of the church has been to teach its members how to sing, all the better to worship our Lord.


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## Webservant (Sep 23, 2008)

beej6 said:


> One thing that irks me is when visiting a (usually evangelical) church, the words are either printed or projected, but the songs are unfamiliar. How is a visitor supposed to sing along? Plus many 'modern' songs have un-rhythmic phrasing, so the net effect is only the "worship team" and regular church members can even attempt to sing. At least with a hymnal I can sing melody and/or harmony.
> 
> I realize I'm in the minority as I can read music and have been a music director for a church. Still, the hymnal is a prayer book that happens to have music in it. A secondary (tertiary?) educational function of the church has been to teach its members how to sing, all the better to worship our Lord.


Maybe this is over-reaching, but I see it as an extension of how dependent we are becoming in general. We can't sing the hymns unless someone plugs in the projector, we can't learn the tune unless the worship team sings it for us. As I posted earlier - what if the lights go out? What if China busts a nuke 20 miles up and EMPs us out of the power grid for the next 20 years? No juice, no worship?


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## Pilgrim (Sep 23, 2008)

I think it depends on the church, although I would imagine that more and more churches are doing without. One PCA church doesn't have them but instead prints the words in the bulletin. Their liturgy is fairly Reformed but they have a praise band and sing a mixture of more recent praise songs and older hymns. Another PCA in the area replaced a different hymnal with the Trinity Hymnal. The Baptist church plant we now attend uses hymnals.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 23, 2008)

Archlute said:


> The retention of the hymnal in most churches would be greatly facilitated if more than 2-3% of the congregation could read choral harmonizations. It is a failure of education, based upon a failure to appreciate and pass on God's gift of music to future generations.
> 
> The retooling of the tunes of the great hymns in our PCA congregations is a travesty, in my opinion. If I hear one more mediocre setting of "Christ Jesus Lay in Death's Strong Bands" I will burn every RUF songbook to cross my path.
> 
> ...



 &


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 23, 2008)

Grymir said:


> I can't sing very well, but with a hymnal I can at least make my voice go up or down to follow the music. Plus then I know how long to sing each note. With the overhead, singing just seems like a caucophany, instead of something worthy of singing to God. I could mention that hymnals tend to have the good o'le songs that speak of what God has done for us, and when the screen comes down at my church, I know I'm gonna get a 'Love songs for Jesus' song. But to be fair, our hymnals have way to many Gaither songs in them, along with other songs that magnify man and not God.



Do y'all have the Blue Presbyterian hymnal?


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## Grymir (Sep 24, 2008)

I think the new ones are blue. It's called Hymns for the Family of God. Published by Paragon Associates, Inc.


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## Grymir (Sep 24, 2008)

From the preface -

"Hymnals of the past usually chose to use the KIng James Bible, which dates back to the 1600's. Today, there are close to twenty highly regarded versions, paraphrases or new translations of the original Hebrew and Greek." hmm twenty highly regarded? 

"A major reward was being allowed the freedom to be innovative." hmmm 

"...let them fill the air. Organs, hymns, readings, drums, guitars, and anthems swell!" hmm a sign of things to come? 

and from a 1976 edition too.

Part of my study is watching my church and seeing how it relates worship to theology. When the projector screen appeared, the theology slipped down the list of important things. hmmm I'm begining to wonder about this specific hymnal.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Sep 24, 2008)

I think that the hymnal in churches will probably disappear over time. Hymnbooks are limited in the number of items they can contain. By projecting or printing the words we have our psalms, hymns and spiritual songs from a greater variety of sources. Some churches that print the words also print the music, my own church just prints the words. 
I am a great fan of putting modern tunes to older hymns. I do recognize that some of the RUF arrangements are not really suitable for congregational use, some hymns should never have been tampered with, but there are some excellent arrangements from RUF. Some of the tunes have made unsingable older hymns accessible to us. I am blessed by some of these hymns and arrangements and give thanks to God for them.
For what it's worth, I like the Trinity Hymnal but some of the tunes there I really can't get into. Also some of my favorite older hymns are not there, eg Before the Throne of God Above, Depth of Mercy, I know that my Redeemer Lives


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## Archlute (Sep 24, 2008)

It is true that not every tune in the RUF hymnal is horrible, nor that every hymn in the Trinity Hymnal is notable. As well, when I have been able, I like to add good Psalm settings, along with the better of contemporary hymnody, to the worship service. That way we can follow the full intent of Paul's instructions when he says to the church in... (Whoops, I forgot. I'll stop now before derailing the thread )


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## Larry Bump (Sep 24, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Personally, I think that they are a waste of money.
> 
> The following is serious:
> 
> ...




And how do we sing to this non-existent psalter/hymnal at home?
There needs to be a common source for family worship and private singing; right?

If you mean choosing different settings with a common meter for a selection, that;s fine; but we need to have something that is "set".


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 24, 2008)

Grymir said:


> I think the new ones are blue. It's called Hymns for the Family of God. Published by Paragon Associates, Inc.



Ok, I thought maybe you were using the new official PC(USA) Blue Hymnal.


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## Romans922 (Sep 24, 2008)

Our church is waiting till the 1961 Trinity Hymnal is finished reprinting and then we are going to buy some new ones of those.


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## jwithnell (Sep 24, 2008)

A hymnal serves several purposes that several have alluded to here, but haven't been brought out as fully as I've been thinking. _There is real value in having a common set of words and music_. I find it almost impossible to participate in worship when given just words to a song or hymn I don't know (and I know a huge number). This commonality allows people to visit other churches when on the road, bring the hymns home to family worship and pass them along to their children. It should also be a collection that has been thoroughly reviewed for theological, musical, and literary merit (although how Softly and Tenderly made it into the Trinity Hymnal is beyond me -- it is so poorly written, it was originally refused for publication, so the author started his own publications!).

The church has long led in promoting excellent musicianship. Bach is the most obvious example, but in this country, when the puritans elected the "new" style of singing, they backed it up by teaching their congregations to read music and harmonize. (A form of psalm singing had been common where one person started, then others started when and how they wanted to leading to a cacophony. This is a vast oversimplification, but gives a picture of what was happening.) Later, "shape" singing was used in the mountain regions to encourage people to read music.

We can, and must, reestablish high standards for music in worship.


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## kceaster (Sep 24, 2008)

The Hymnal is not going away in the OPC any time soon. There is a project right now to produce a new Psalter/Hymnal in which all 150 Psalms will appear and a selection of Hymns. It is due out by 2011, I think.

In Christ,

KC


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## Tim (Sep 24, 2008)

One of the things I don't like with overhead is that you don't see the tune. At least with printed music, you can make a good attempt at a new tune. For those who can't read music, at least they can see when the notes go up and down. 

The other thing is that you can't practice singing at home. If I can step up to my soapbox briefly, I think people should practice singing because it is an element of worship. If someone mentions that they don't understand the Bible, they are encouraged to study it. If someone mentions that they can't sing, how often are they encouraged to practice? A book containing lyrics and printed music is the way to practice. Even if you can't read the tune, at least you can get a audio recording and sing along and learn that way.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 24, 2008)

kceaster said:


> The Hymnal is not going away in the OPC any time soon. There is a project right now to produce a new Psalter/Hymnal in which all 150 Psalms will appear and a selection of Hymns. It is due out by 2011, I think.
> 
> In Christ,
> 
> KC



Something which I look forward to.  but I hear that they well be truly Psalms not just loose paraphrases.


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## JoelYrick (Sep 24, 2008)

As a child, my church used a hymnal. We then switched to projection. It was my experience that we used a far wider range of hymns while using the hymnal. Sure, you _could_ use more hymns if you have a projector, but it seemed that it didn't turn out that way. 

Since joining the RPCNA, I can't keep up with all the different Psalms we use. I've been there for nearly 4 years, and there's hardly a week that goes by that I don't know a psalm or two that is used. I wonder if this is because folks know how to read music much better there...


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## FenderPriest (Sep 24, 2008)

The issue, to my mind, over the use of hymnals in the future is not over the value of having them, but of the musical literacy of the people in the congregation. In my experience, people in the general population cannot read music anymore. Moreover, most congregations that I know can't sing harmonies either. Thus, if a song is regulated to a single tune which have the upper (female) and lower (male) parts for the same line, the hymnal, while nice, isn't needed anymore. I don't think hymns are on the way out, but hymnals are for the most part, due in large part to musical illiteracy. 

I think, if hymnals have a sustained use in the general church in the future, it will be in family and private worship.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 24, 2008)

Well if the people are ignorant why do we not then teach them?


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## ChristianHedonist (Sep 24, 2008)

One positive thing about having the words projected on a screen is that I prefer to look up when I sing, and it is easier for me to be more conscious of the words I am singing. With hymnals, I sometimes find myself getting so caught up in following and singing the bass line that I'm not paying enough attention to the words I am singing. However, i much prefer being able to harmonize and sing the bass lines (especially the ones arranged by Bach), and I prefer having the musical notation, not just the lyrics, especially for songs I'm not as familiar with. I would prefer to stick with the hymnal (or some other method of printing/displaying both words and music) for corporate worship.


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## kceaster (Sep 24, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> kceaster said:
> 
> 
> > The Hymnal is not going away in the OPC any time soon. There is a project right now to produce a new Psalter/Hymnal in which all 150 Psalms will appear and a selection of Hymns. It is due out by 2011, I think.
> ...



They're trying to get away from Yodaisms, you know, verbs at the end of phrases.

Pastor's Larry Wilson and Peter Wallace have been doing quite a bit of work with this.

In Christ,

KC


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## CovenantalBaptist (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with the statements about not being able to project the music. I think that while projection has certain advantages, the disadvantage of not projecting the actual music is a deal-breaker for me. Supplementary music can be printed in a binder and form a more permanent copy (bonus: it's also EMP-proof). 

For those concerned about the musical literacy of the church, may I recommend the following simple program: "The Hidden Choir". I hope to implement it sometime when I get some time. I know of another Reformed Baptist church that has derived much benefit from it. I think it is a good idea to teach the church to tune its voice(as the RPCNA does at their retreats) . The website is currently down (but I believe you can still order them some places but you may have to do some internet spelunking). Here is a brief review.


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## JohnV (Sep 25, 2008)

There's a musical ensemble in our area that has begun to do yearly sing-along concerts of Handel's "Messiah". That's right, we get to sing along with them. 

This group in our area is promoting the ability to sing some of the grandest music ever composed. I think that this would mean that down the road music books become a necessity again.


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## FenderPriest (Sep 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well if the people are ignorant why do we not then teach them?


I agree with your question, but you're ask'n the wrong guy!


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## JBaldwin (Sep 25, 2008)

JohnV said:


> There's a musical ensemble in our area that has begun to do yearly sing-along concerts of Handel's "Messiah". That's right, we get to sing along with them.
> 
> This group in our area is promoting the ability to sing some of the grandest music ever composed. I think that this would mean that down the road music books become a necessity again.



I grew up in a community that did that, and we loved it. 

I don't think that singing from written music will ever go away, at least not as long as we remain civilized. I do think, however, that if the trends continue, hymnals are going to take a back seat. 

I would also agree with those who say that once the projection screen shows up, out the window goes the music with any depth. I find that to be very true. Even in my own church where we are diligent about singing psalms and hymns, there is a tendancy to avoid singing the more difficult hymns because there is no music to follow and attention is turned from concentrating on the words to trying to figure out how to sing it.


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## LawrenceU (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd have to agree. I grew up in churches that sang a capella. The congregational singing was beautiful and participation was excellent. Four and six part harmony was the norm. I never realized how rare it is to grow up knowing how to sing. I have since gone back to some of those same churches some of which now have done away with the hymnal and 'advanced' to projected lyrics, even with the staff. At each of the churches the singing is nothing like it used to be.


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## Clay7926 (Sep 25, 2008)

Our church still uses the classic blue Trinity Hymnals. I don't see us going to songs projected on a screen anytime soon.

While I do believe that modern technology is here to stay, I don't see the Trinity Hymnal, or any Hymnal, going away completely. I know of a lot of folks who learned how to read and sing music from the Hymnal, so from a sentimental standpoint I doubt that it's going anywhere. 

Also, I believe that using the Hymnal creates more of an active involvement in worship; I actually have to turn the pages, find the song, and either sing the hymn as a congregation or meditate on the words of a hymn during the Prelude or the Offertory. While I _*LOVE*_ software like MediaShout, ChurchView, and PowerPoint to project lyrics on the screen, I think that overuse of it can take away from active involvement in worship.


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## N. Eshelman (Sep 25, 2008)

Larry Bump said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I think that they are a waste of money.
> ...



Larry, 

Good to hear from you, BTW. I have not seen you at the last couple of presbytery meetings. Hope all is well in Belle Center. 

I agree that the physical copy of the book will never be without its value and its usefulness. I am just commenting on the fact that if a strict RPW church wanted to use the Psalter off of the wall (with Crown and Covenant's permission, of course), it would not be a violation of the regulative principle. So, a church COULD get rid of their song books and still have stately, regulated worship. 

Frankly, I do not see it ever happening and I would not be the one to promote it in the public worship of the church, but I cannot oppose it based on principle.


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## JohnV (Sep 26, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> Larry Bump said:
> 
> 
> > nleshelman said:
> ...



This brings up an interesting question. Some have suggested that there is more involved here than merely posting songs on a screen or on the wall. Could one oppose that "more" based on principle?


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 26, 2008)

Grew up in PC(USA) where we used the green hymnal and that is all we sang from. At Bethlehem Baptist, they use the overhead with the screen although they do have a Baptist hymnal in the pew pockets. When I visit there, the hymnals haven't been used. 

At my church, they have the Trinity Hymnal but a lot, lot of time use overhead with screen. 

A friend of mine is in collaboration with a new Lutheran hymnal called "Reclaim" in contradiction to the new ELCA hymnal that has been coined "The Cranberry" because it is cranberry red. The Reclaim is traditional with original lyrics that the Cranberry did away with to be "sensitive". 

I hope hymnals don't go away because it seems as if they are just being replaced by praise and worship music.


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## HokieAirman (Sep 29, 2008)

These are all wonderful posts and I greatly appreciate that there are those who value singing "tonally", as I believe the Westminsters  advocated. As singing is part of worship, it should be done to the best of our ability. One of you mentioned that when we lack knowledge of scripture we are admonished to study it. We ought to desire to praise God in the best way we know how (as long as it does not conflict with that worship prescribed in scripture).

It took me about 9 years of casual singing to reasonably learn intervals and have the ability to pick out a bass or tenor line with accuracy. It's a long process.

Regarding paying too much attention to the musical notation and not understanding the words, I too make that mistake. I think it was the Westminsters also who said we ought to understand what we sing. For that reason I have recommended that my Session advocate the review of the next Sunday's hymns during the previous week so, even if they can't sing them tonally, they can at least understand the words and meaning.

We're a small church and currently choose hymns from the Red Trinity Hymnal and Psalter, but we have to reprint them in the bulletins. We are making an effort to buy hymnals for use in services and lending to families. We're leaning towards the Blue Trinity Hymnals. I've been choosing the hymns for the Sunday services and I've only found one hymn which I really feel is out of place. # 381 "Brethren We Have Met to Worship". I find it quite negative and defeatist. Maybe I'm off base, but I'm sure this is off topic...sorry.

For all the reasons in previous posts, I think it would be a sad day in Christendom if/when hymnals meet their demise. I think, however, that while some denominations will phase them out of their worship, others will keep them for a long time, maybe forever. I do seem to find them more in reformed churches.


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## BaptisticFire2007 (Sep 30, 2008)

As a former Pentecostal musician and church projectionist, I like hymnals. For one thing the amount of time required to get it prepped and ready is not worth the stress and heartbreak. My church uses "Psalms and Hymns for Reformed Worship" and it is just so much easier. Hymnals may well be on their way out, but I for one will keep using them...even if it means I will have to reprint them myself


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## JBaldwin (Sep 30, 2008)

We had an interesting experience in worship on Sunday. The electricity went out and 30 minutes before worship started. We had no sound system and two acoustic guitars and a djembe to keep the singing moving. I felt like we had stepped into another world and yet the worship was just as sweet as it always is. It made me realize that we need to have at the very least printed words. If we had had nothing but projected words on the wall, our worship would have been very different.


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## SueS (Oct 10, 2008)

A few months ago someone in our choir suggested that we get a screen and project the hymns - our director replied, "Over my dead body!!!" and then went on to say that in her opinion when the hymnbooks are replaced by an overhead it eventually dumbs down the worship. I couldn't agree more.

At our former church hymnbooks were done away with over 20 years ago and, yes, there was definitely a dumbing down process. With a screen, only the words are projected which means that only familiar, easy to sing hymns could be used. Eventually P&W's replaced most of the hymns although our pastor made it a point to do at least a couple of them every week because he was aware that the younger generation is becoming almost totally illiterate when it comes to the great hymns of the faith. When the new man took over hymns became almost completely a thing of the past and inane, repetitive 7/11 songs are about all that is sung. What a pity!

With a hymnal there is a great variety of music and if chosen correctly, much sound doctrine can be derived from the hymns. Congregations can be exposed to many of the great hymns of the faith, many of which were written by outstanding composers of the past. Simply using a hymnal enables a person to gradually learn to read music well enough to follow an unfamiliar melody without much of a problem.

In our congregation we have many people who are able to sing various harmony parts which makes the singing particularly pleasing to the ear. If the hymnals were taken away all of these benefits would eventually disappear as well.

Our pastor is hoping to begin introducing Psalm singing in the near future and I expect the quality of congregational singing will be at least as good if not better.


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## SueS (Oct 10, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> matthew11v25 said:
> 
> 
> > My church uses songs by RUF and Townend, etc. We have moved to printing the music or putting lyrics in the bulletin. I personally think that overheads or projectors are more efficient compared to printing out music or lyrics every week.
> ...





Our pastor (PCA) is in the process of collecting various contemporary hymns as well as Psalms to put together in a spiral bound hymnal to complement our regular one. There are so many really good contemporary hymns out there - by Townend and Boice, for example - and he wants our congregation to be exposed to them.


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## SueS (Oct 10, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> For the record, our church would be purchasing the Trinity hymnal. We tend to sing a lot of hymns from the Trinity hymnal anyway, but the arrangements are slightly different.
> 
> By the way, I agree with those who complain about the RUF arrangements. There are a few really good ones, and the rest need a lot of help.
> 
> Please keep the comments coming.





When we were between churches we visited one that used the RUF arrangements of old hymns. They were sounded pleasant enough but they all had a '60's folk music sound that got very boring after a short time. Keep the old arrangements with the old lyrics!!!!!


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