# Sunday Night Worship II



## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

This is a spin-off. The other thread primarily deals with whether or not the church _should_ have an evening worship service in addition to a morning worship service. Most seemed to be in agreement that while there can be benefits to having a second service, it is by no means necessary.

Which leads me to a new question...

If your local church has chosen to offer a second worship service on Sunday evening, is there an obligation for members to attend?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 14, 2009)

If the Elders call for a Second Service then yes as members under the care of those Elders you should be obligated to attend.


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## ADKing (Oct 14, 2009)

In the RPCNA covenant of comminucant membership one of the vows is "do you promise that you will...keep the Lord's Day, regularly attend the worship services..."

Realizing that we might have to make allowance for people who live at such distances that it is not realistic to return, I am of the opinion that if it is reasonably possible, members are expected to attend.


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> If the Elders call for a Second Service then yes as members under the care of those Elders you should be obligated to attend.



Does that only apply to worship services? What about Sunday school, seasonal conferences, bible studies, prayer groups, and other events that the Elders plan for the church?


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## baron (Oct 14, 2009)

I think if the church doors are open the members should attend. 

I once went to a church where three families had to drive two hours and cross the Peace Bridge (bridge that connects Canada and U.S.) which is always packed with traffic and they were there when ever the doors were open. (They were never late always early for any service).

I was told Sunday night service was the Evangelical Service for the unsaved to come to church. So most members were instructed to stay home so their neighbors could come and hear the Gospel.

Just as Spurgeon used to tell people who were members of other churches to go to their own church and support their own pastors and leave the seats in his church for the unsaved. (Not sure if thats true but thats what I have been told).


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## Montanablue (Oct 14, 2009)

I do not think there should be an "obligation" to attend a second service on Sunday. Of cousre, elders should encourage those who are able to attend. However, I believe strongly that Sunday ought to be a day of rest - not just spritually, but physically too. For some, having to go to a second service is simply not restful. 

For example, my church has, in the past, had a second service. Many of our members are farmers and many live far away. As we all know, farmers, unlike some of us, still have to do their chores on Sunday. These people wake up before dawn on Sunday to feed the animals or do the milking (if its a dairy farm), they then drive (often a long ways) to church, attend services, go home and have lunch, and then do all of the required afternoon chores. I really don't think its unreasonable for them to want to sit down and rest after all that! If they came to church again in the evening, they would probably fall asleep in the pew AND they would not be physicall rested for the week to come. I know this seems like an unusual circumstance to most of us, but I just use it to show that in some cases an evening service might not be the best way to spend the Sabbath.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > If the Elders call for a Second Service then yes as members under the care of those Elders you should be obligated to attend.
> ...



Are Worship services the same thing as Sunday School, seasonal conferences, bible studies, prayer groups, and other events that the Elders plan for the church?


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Are Worship services the same thing as Sunday School, seasonal conferences, bible studies, prayer groups, and other events that the Elders plan for the church?



No, they are not. I guess what I'm getting at is it the fact that it is a worship service, or is it the fact that the Elders have agreed to offer the service.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Are Worship services the same thing as Sunday School, seasonal conferences, bible studies, prayer groups, and other events that the Elders plan for the church?
> ...



Both.


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## Montanablue (Oct 14, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...



I don't understand. Are you saying that church members are obligated to attend every service that the elders offer? (for example, a mid-week prayer service).


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> This is a spin-off. The other thread primarily deals with whether or not the church _should_ have an evening worship service in addition to a morning worship service. Most seemed to be in agreement that while there can be benefits to having a second service, it is by no means necessary.
> 
> Which leads me to a new question...
> 
> If your local church has chosen to offer a second worship service on Sunday evening, is there an obligation for members to attend?



Yes. In the PCA, especially, because of the vow they take to support the work and worship of the Church. 

But like said above, if the elders call for it then you should be there.


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I do not think there should be an "obligation" to attend a second service on Sunday. Of cousre, elders should encourage those who are able to attend. However, I believe strongly that Sunday ought to be a day of rest - not just spritually, but physically too. For some, having to go to a second service is simply not restful.



I pretty much side with Kathleen. I think there is an obligation for the Christian to attend public worship on Sunday, but I consider an additional evening service to be beneficial rather than necessary. I enjoy going back to church in the evening, but right now my family is week-to-week. We used to attend every week, and we plan on getting back there in the future. But for the time being we are going with the most restful option, which depends upon how our Sunday goes. 
The evening service started to be a burden when our oldest child was around a year old--her dinner time was thrown off and she was late getting to bed. We all suffered. Now she's almost 3, and she has no problem having her schedule disrupted....but our youngest child (who just turned one) is now the problem. If the kids have good naps on Sunday and are in good spirits, we go to the evening service. Otherwise, we stay home and get the kids to bed early.

-----Added 10/14/2009 at 10:51:29 EST-----



Romans922 said:


> Yes. In the PCA, especially, because of the vow they take to support the work and worship of the Church.



Supporting the work and worship of the church is subjective. I could do this by attending every service, class, conference, meeting, and event the church schedules, but I don't think it's necessary for me to do all of that. A lot of churches these days (mine included) have something going on practically every day of the week.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. In the PCA, especially, because of the vow they take to support the work and worship of the Church.
> ...





How is it subjective?


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> How is it subjective?



The vow does not objectively state how we are to support the worship and work of the church. You pointed to that vow as a reason why we are obligated to attend all of the church's worship services, but the vow doesn't specifically state that.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

So then to support the work and worship of the church to the best of your ability means that you are to only go to morning worship, and the authority of the elders means little when they have designated a second worship service on the same day?

We are called to do the most righteous and God glorifying thing at all times. So that means to neglect the public worship of the body? To disregard and forsake the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to us?

Is it our goal to avoid being holy? Or are you suggesting that trying to get out of public worship is okay?

This is the same argument you get from those who don't hold to the Confessional Standards of the Lord's Day. God commands to spend the Lord's day in the public and private exercises of His worship. And so people say, well that commandment is no longer binding. Because they want to go to football games and do their own pleasures. We are to spend the whole day in the public and private exercises of His Worship. So if there is an evening worship service, you better be there, especially since the elders (who are your under-shepherds) have called for it to be done! It is the best thing for your souls.


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> So then to support the work and worship of the church to the best of your ability means that you are to only go to morning worship, and the authority of the elders means little when they have designated a second worship service on the same day?



Whoa, easy. I never said that. I'm trying to understand where we draw the line. Is it just the worship services on Sunday we are required to attend, or is it everything the elders provide for the church? As I mentioned before, our weekly calendar is full of events.



> We are called to do the most righteous and God glorifying thing at all times. So that means to neglect the public worship of the body? To disregard and forsake the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to us?



I think you're going overboard here. Disregard and forsake Christ by not attending an evening service??? Really?



> Is it our goal to avoid being holy? Or are you suggesting that trying to get out of public worship is okay?



Worship is not something to "get out of", so no, I'm not suggesting that. I enjoy going to public worship.


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## Montanablue (Oct 14, 2009)

> Because they want to go to football games and do their own pleasures.



I don't know why you said this, because no one in this thread has said that they wanted to skip public worship to "go to a football game" or even engage in any other secular activity. We've simply pointed out that a 2nd worship service may not be restful - or even feasible - for some in particular circumstances. I, personally, would be happy to attend a 2nd service - but I am also not a farmer and I don't have young children who get cranky when they're not in bed early.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > We are called to do the most righteous and God glorifying thing at all times. So that means to neglect the public worship of the body? To disregard and forsake the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to us?
> ...



"Disregard and forsake Christ by not attending an evening service??? Really?" If your church, being led by the elders, have called for an evening worship service, then YES! Christ speaks through His word, will then you disregard/forsake Him by not going to hear? 

The means of grace are offered and called for by the elders, then you are not putting yourself under the means of grace as they are offered and called for by those in authority over you. 



PLEASE NOTE: I'm specifically speaking of the Lord's Day, it is that day God calls us to worship Him publically. 





> We've simply pointed out that a 2nd worship service may not be restful - or even feasible - for some in particular circumstances. I, personally, would be happy to attend a 2nd service - but I am also not a farmer and I don't have young children who get cranky when they're not in bed early.



How could a 2nd worship service not be restful? (I am not referring to feasibility, that has to do with God's providence). What does being a farmer have to do with going to a 2nd worship service. I am in a farming community with farmers who are members of our church and they attend faithfully both worship services for the reason that I've already stated above (elders have called for it, not wanting to forsake the means of grace). Young children get cranky when they aren't in bed early? There are solutions to such a problem: an evening worship service can be made to be earlier. Parents can help their children get used to worshipping on the Lord's Day (morning and evening). We have many children of all ages in our church, and none get cranky. Because they have been disciplined/trained by their parents. These two reasons are not adaquate reasons or good reasons to forsake evening worship. God calls us to worship, so we should! 

And the Lord's day as a day of rest is not all about sleeping! It is about resting from one's work and resting IN THE LORD. 

WLC

*Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?*
A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called _The Lord’s day_.


*Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?*
A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified *by an holy resting all the day*; not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but e*ven from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time* (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) *in the public and private exercises of God’s worship*: and, to that end, *we are to prepare our hearts*, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.


*Q. 118. Why is the charge of keeping the sabbath more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors?*
A. *The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors*, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but *to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge;* and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own.


*Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?*
A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; *all profaning the day by idleness*, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> We have many children of all ages in our church, and none get cranky. Because they have been disciplined/trained by their parents.



Wow. I need to spend some time with those parents because evidently I am not doing a good enough job disciplining and training my one-year old.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > We have many children of all ages in our church, and none get cranky. Because they have been disciplined/trained by their parents.
> ...



Maybe I should clarify, that if they do get cranky one parent takes their child out of the meeting room and calms their child down (or disciplines, depending on the reason of crankiness).


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## Montanablue (Oct 14, 2009)

> How could a 2nd worship service not be restful? (I am not referring to feasibility, that has to do with God's providence). What does being a farmer have to do with going to a 2nd worship service. I am in a farming community with farmers who are members of our church and they attend faithfully both worship services for the reason that I've already stated above (elders have called for it, not wanting to forsake the means of grace). Young children get cranky when they aren't in bed early? There are solutions to such a problem: an evening worship service can be made to be earlier. Parents can help their children get used to worshipping on the Lord's Day (morning and evening). We have many children of all ages in our church, and none get cranky. Because they have been disciplined/trained by their parents. These two reasons are not adaquate reasons or good reasons to forsake evening worship. God calls us to worship, so we should!
> 
> And the Lord's day as a day of rest is not all about sleeping! It is about resting from one's work and resting IN THE LORD.



If you cannot conceive of why an evening worship service might not be restful for a farmer who wakes up at 4 am every morning to milk his cows and has an hour to drive to the church and back, then we are not going to have a fruitful conversation. The same applies if you don't understand why parents with 2 children under the age of 3 might not want to deal with their understandably cranky and restless children during a service only to arrive home at 9 pm and have to wake at 6 the next morning to go to work. 

I think we probably have a different understanding of the Sabbath (I believe it is meant for both the worship of God and physical rest and refreshment) and since this isn't a "sabbatarian or not" thread, I'll leave it at that.

-----Added 10/14/2009 at 02:22:27 EST-----



Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > We have many children of all ages in our church, and none get cranky. Because they have been disciplined/trained by their parents.
> ...



Well, with this criteria, I think my entire congregation has failed! I've never known a one year old who didn't get cranky during a worship service.


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## Albatross (Oct 14, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Whoa, easy. I never said that. I'm trying to understand where we draw the line. Is it just the worship services on Sunday we are required to attend, or is it everything the elders provide for the church? As I mentioned before, our weekly calendar is full of events.



While it might not result in a clear line, I do think a distinction is appropriate between worship and other church activities. Obviously, worship is more important than Wednesday night activities or Thursday morning bible studies.

In regards to the PCA membership vow, it isn't specific, but wouldn't you agree that at the minimum "support" equates to attendance?


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## JML (Oct 14, 2009)

Attendance was a part of our membership covenant. Upon membership, we agreed to attend all stated worship meetings unless otherwise hindered (sick, out of town, etc.). I think we miss opportunities to be with the brethren when we are not at service. We should not only seek to be in God's house whenever possible (Psalm 122:1) but we should also seek to be with the brethren (1 John 3:14).


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## Tripel (Oct 14, 2009)

Albatross said:


> In regards to the PCA membership vow, it isn't specific, but wouldn't you agree that at the minimum "support" equates to attendance?



Absolutely. Attendance at worship is necessary, and that is our family's number one priority each Sunday.


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