# Taking a 4 day drive accross America with an Arminian



## NB3K

Brothers

I am leaving for Las Cruces, New Mexico this Saturday. I will be riding with my Uncle (who is my aunt's husband no relation to me but marriage) who is an Arminian.

I will have four days with him stuck in a car driving from Baltimore, Md to the above mentioned destination.

Any suggestions on Evangelising to him? 

I will be taking both my kindle and ipad so I will have a great amount of resources with me to quote from. I want to make the best of this trip for the advancment of Christ's Church.

All suggestions will be very helpful.


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## Ne Oublie

Tell him everything you have done to be saved, all the prayers and steps and faith you have and then read the scriptures that contradict and ask him if your making any sense.


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## SolaScriptura

He's an "Arminian?" What do you mean?

To each their own, but my initial thought is don't "evangelize" him. Just enjoy his company, and chat about whatever comes up. If the issue of Calvinism/Arminianism comes up I recommend relaying how it was that YOU came to see the doctrines of grace as being true and commend them to him for consideration. 

Resist being confrontational. 4 Days is a long time to be stuck in a car with someone who you've alienated or angered.


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## CharlieJ

I'm not sure spending 4 days convincing Arminian family members that they're wrong is the best way to advance Christ's Church. I'm more sure that forms of the word "evangelize" should not be used toward people simply because they're Arminians. I'm definitely sure that turning a road trip into a forced multi-day theological debate without the knowledge and consent of the other person (again, family member) is a major breach of relationship.

I don't think it's wrong to bring it up. I just don't think your primary thought when getting to spend time with your family should be correcting their doctrinal errors.


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## NB3K

SolaScriptura said:


> He's an "Arminian?" What do you mean?
> 
> Resist being confrontational. 4 Days is a long time to be stuck in a car with someone who you've alienated or angered.



I mean I will be the servant of one that is on the opposite side of the "theological" divide.

I know 4 days is a long time to be with one that I could anger or alienate. This is the reason why I posted this as a call for help to those that have been in the Reformed Faith longer than I.

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------

Wow I am amazed that no one has an approach which would be helpful to explain the doctrine of grace without it being a turn for the worse. BTW, this is the husband of my aunt and he would be the one to minister to first. If I were to go around him and talk to his wife that would be a breach of relationship. Husbands are suppose to teach their wives not the other way around.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------




CharlieJ said:


> I'm not sure spending 4 days convincing Arminian family members that they're wrong is the best way to advance Christ's Church. I'm more sure that forms of the word "evangelize" should not be used toward people simply because they're Arminians. I'm definitely sure that turning a road trip into a forced multi-day theological debate without the knowledge and consent of the other person (again, family member) is a major breach of relationship.
> 
> I don't think it's wrong to bring it up. I just don't think your primary thought when getting to spend time with your family should be correcting their doctrinal errors.



I told my Pastor yesterday that the only family that I consider family is the Church. My family (according to the flesh) doesn't even consider me family, but only when they want something.


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## SolaScriptura

NB3K said:


> Wow I am amazed that no one has an approach which would be helpful to explain the doctrine of grace without it being a turn for the worse.



Um, I did give you an approach that would be helpful.


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## NB3K

SolaScriptura said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I am amazed that no one has an approach which would be helpful to explain the doctrine of grace without it being a turn for the worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I did give you an approach that would be helpful.
Click to expand...


yes but He may not even know that the doctrine of Grace is.

and I have no clue how to present it and where to go and not go because I am so green in the faith.


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## PreservedKillick

I'm in agreement with the general run of this thread. I would say focus the discussion on Christ and answer questions and gently clear up misconceptions about Reformed theology if they come up, rather than making it a debate. Debating my family when I was new to Reformed doctrine went absolutely nowhere and was unedifying for all involved. 

I wouldn't use the term "evangelize" either, but perhaps something like the discussion between Charles Simeon and John Wesley in the first chapter of Packer's _Evangelism and the Sovereigntyy of God_?


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## NB3K

PreservedKillick said:


> I'm in agreement with the general run of this thread. I would say focus the discussion on Christ and answer questions and gently clear up misconceptions about Reformed theology if they come up, rather than making it a debate. Debating my family when I was new to Reformed doctrine went absolutely nowhere and was unedifying for all involved.
> 
> I wouldn't use the term "evangelize" either, but perhaps something like the discussion between Charles Simeon and John Wesley in the first chapter of Packer's _Evangelism and the Sovereigntyy of God_?



Ok I am in total agreement to both points. I have found that telling people that they are wrong only brings anger and heated debate.


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## greenbaggins

NB3K said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I am amazed that no one has an approach which would be helpful to explain the doctrine of grace without it being a turn for the worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I did give you an approach that would be helpful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes but He may not even know that the doctrine of Grace is.
> 
> and I have no clue how to present it and where to go and not go because I am so green in the faith.
Click to expand...


First of all, prayer is absolutely essential here. Pray and pray and pray some more about this time, that it may be profitable. Second, I agree with the others not to force the issue of Calvinism and Arminianism into the conversation. Thirdly, since he is older than you are, do more listening than talking. Try to understand his position "from the inside," by trying to put on his shoes. Again, assuming that the topic comes up naturally, try to find out how and why he believes what he believes. Fourthly, if an opportunity arises for you to share the doctrines of grace with him, do it more by asking questions, and not loaded ones, either. Try to pitch it as mutual exploration of the Bible, rather than a debate. A debate will usually only raise his defense mechanisms. Don't put him on the defensive. This will only polarize him further. What God has done in your life is usually a helpful way to go with this as well, since you can easily phrase your experience in terms that are not combative.


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## NB3K

greenbaggins said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I am amazed that no one has an approach which would be helpful to explain the doctrine of grace without it being a turn for the worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I did give you an approach that would be helpful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes but He may not even know that the doctrine of Grace is.
> 
> and I have no clue how to present it and where to go and not go because I am so green in the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First of all, prayer is absolutely essential here. Pray and pray and pray some more about this time, that it may be profitable. Second, I agree with the others not to force the issue of Calvinism and Arminianism into the conversation. Thirdly, since he is older than you are, do more listening than talking. Try to understand his position "from the inside," by trying to put on his shoes. Again, assuming that the topic comes up naturally, try to find out how and why he believes what he believes. Fourthly, if an opportunity arises for you to share the doctrines of grace with him, do it more by asking questions, and not loaded ones, either. Try to pitch it as mutual exploration of the Bible, rather than a debate. A debate will usually only raise his defense mechanisms. Don't put him on the defensive. This will only polarize him further. What God has done in your life is usually a helpful way to go with this as well, since you can easily phrase your experience in terms that are not combative.
Click to expand...


Thank you


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## Jack K

If you are a consistent Calvinist, you have more reason than he does to be a humble and patient Christian. So above all else... be gracious, slow to speak, not argumentative, preferring to focus on your own shortcomings rather than on his. Four days together in a car means there is no effective apologetic unless these character traits are present to witness to the transformative power of the gospel of grace.


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## LeeD

Great advice given in this thread. Another good conversation would be to share the truths surrounding the atonement that God has revealed in the Scriptures. A right view of the atonement can go along way in open a brother's eyes to the doctrines of grace.


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## Sviata Nich

Perhaps listening to an audio teaching, like Sproul's "Willing to believe" (if he's up for it)? Very respectful and well done. But above all, pray.


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## Frosty

Jack K said:


> If you are a consistent Calvinist, you have more reason than he does to be a humble and patient Christian. So above all else... be gracious, slow to speak, not argumentative, preferring to focus on your own shortcomings rather than on his. Four days together in a car means there is no effective apologetic unless these character traits are present to witness to the transformative power of the gospel of grace.



This. Well said, Jack.


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## NB3K

Sviata Nich said:


> Perhaps listening to an audio teaching, like Sproul's "Willing to believe" (if he's up for it)? Very respectful and well done. But above all, pray.



I have that book on my kindle. It was awesome!


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## Joseph Scibbe

Don't try to force the conversation. That will't imagine imediately put him on the defensive and you will end with poor results. LEt the conversation come up naturally. I can't imagine that 4 days stuck in a car together that you won't have any chance to discuss your doctrine. But ALWAYS be kind and gracious. He is family and a brother in Christ. No need alienating yourself and offending over this.


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## Rich Koster

Scan the dial for some of the "religious" AM radio stations across the midwest and use them as conversation starters. There will probably be a few points you both agree upon when it comes to bad doctrine being spread from them and build some discussion upon that.


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## Scott1

Pray the night before.

Right up front, share the gospel. Don't delay.

Explain from a few Scriptures, e.g.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The Bible tells us we have all sinned.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.

Yet, God tells us we must obey Him to go to Heaven.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

There is only one person who perfectly obeyed God, and who died a perfect death on the cross to pay for that sin.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The gift of salvation cannot be earned, it is a free gift that we access by faith.
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

If we receive Christ as Savior and Lord, we can know we are saved.
I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And in this life, Jesus is Lord, and we must obey Him.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Leave the results to God. 

Follow up based on His response, interest and questions over your 4 days. Refer back ocassionally to the first day's scripture promises.

Have some Dr. Sproul tapes to play.

Do your research in advance, find a church if the Lord's Day is along the way. Or, if in Las Cruces, attend Lord's Day services with them.
*|* Grace Covenant Church

---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

Also, don't "overdo" it, you have lots of idle time to talk about other things or detour to things he is interested in.

Don't forget to pray as things come up, pray for him, difficulties along the way, etc.

But, every day, in the ordinary course, weave in what is in your life, our Lord, His Word, your life.


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## NB3K

Scott1 said:


> Pray the night before.
> 
> Right up front, share the gospel. Don't delay.
> 
> Explain from a few Scriptures, e.g.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
> 
> The Bible tells us we have all sinned.
> Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.
> 
> Yet, God tells us we must obey Him to go to Heaven.
> Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
> 
> There is only one person who perfectly obeyed God, and who died a perfect death on the cross to pay for that sin.
> Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
> 
> The gift of salvation cannot be earned, it is a free gift that we access by faith.
> Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
> 
> If we receive Christ as Savior and Lord, we can know we are saved.
> I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
> 
> And in this life, Jesus is Lord, and we must obey Him.
> Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
> 
> Leave the results to God.
> 
> Follow up based on His response, interest and questions over your 4 days. Refer back ocassionally to the first day's scripture promises.
> 
> Have some Dr. Sproul tapes to play.
> 
> Do your research in advance, find a church if the Lord's Day is along the way. Or, if in Las Cruces, attend Lord's Day services with them.
> *|* Grace Covenant Church
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------
> 
> Also, don't "overdo" it, you have lots of idle time to talk about other things or detour to things he is interested in.
> 
> Don't forget to pray as things come up, pray for him, difficulties along the way, etc.
> 
> But, every day, in the ordinary course, weave in what is in your life, our Lord, His Word, your life.




So you are basically telling me to search for points of agreement?


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## Scott1

You said evangelizing an Arminian....


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## NB3K

Scott1 said:


> You said evangelizing an Arminian....



I mean with the doctrine of Grace.


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## InSlaveryToChrist

I think some of you are overthinking evangelizing. There's no reason to hold back from sharing the Gospel (i.e. evangelize) with someone you think haven't heard/grasped it yet. If it comes off as offensive or rude to the person, then it is HIS problem, not yours. In doing so you're simply showing your concern for another soul, which is unobjectionable behavior. _We_ cannot change the fact that sometimes our fellow Brothers and Sisters do not hearken to our (or better, _God's_) exhortation and rebuke, but get hostile to the Word of God. This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place (if He so desires).

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)

But before you proceed to exhorting or rebuking your uncle, make sure he, by his own words, affirms he is an Arminian and believes such and such. Try to make him convinced that it is the Word of _God_ that speaks against him, and not just your own words.


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## NB3K

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> I think some of you are overthinking evangelizing. There's no reason to hold back from sharing the Gospel (i.e. evangelize) with someone you think haven't heard/grasped it yet. If it comes off as offensive or rude to the person, then it is HIS problem, not yours. In doing so you're simply showing your concern for another soul, which is unobjectionable behavior. _We_ cannot change the fact that sometimes our fellow Brothers and Sisters do not hearken to our (or better, _God's_) exhortation and rebuke, but get hostile to the Word of God. This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place (if He so desires).
> 
> "Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)
> 
> But before you proceed to exhorting or rebuking your uncle, make sure he, by his own words, affirms he is an Arminian and believes such and such. Try to make him convinced that it is the Word of _God_ that speaks against him, and not just your own words.



Thank you for your words of encouragement. For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!


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## Joseph Scibbe

NB3K said:


> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some of you are overthinking evangelizing. There's no reason to hold back from sharing the Gospel (i.e. evangelize) with someone you think haven't heard/grasped it yet. If it comes off as offensive or rude to the person, then it is HIS problem, not yours. In doing so you're simply showing your concern for another soul, which is unobjectionable behavior. _We_ cannot change the fact that sometimes our fellow Brothers and Sisters do not hearken to our (or better, _God's_) exhortation and rebuke, but get hostile to the Word of God. This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place (if He so desires).
> 
> "Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)
> 
> But before you proceed to exhorting or rebuking your uncle, make sure he, by his own words, affirms he is an Arminian and believes such and such. Try to make him convinced that it is the Word of _God_ that speaks against him, and not just your own words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your words of encouragement. For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!
Click to expand...


Oh to be a young calvinist again. Just about every "arminian" will agree that we are saved by grace. It is dishonest to portray your average arminian christian otherwise. If that is what your Uncle believes then that is most important. You are not worried about saving his soul anymore but making him conform to certain doctrines.


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## NB3K

Joseph Scibbe said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some of you are overthinking evangelizing. There's no reason to hold back from sharing the Gospel (i.e. evangelize) with someone you think haven't heard/grasped it yet. If it comes off as offensive or rude to the person, then it is HIS problem, not yours. In doing so you're simply showing your concern for another soul, which is unobjectionable behavior. _We_ cannot change the fact that sometimes our fellow Brothers and Sisters do not hearken to our (or better, _God's_) exhortation and rebuke, but get hostile to the Word of God. This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place (if He so desires).
> 
> "Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)
> 
> But before you proceed to exhorting or rebuking your uncle, make sure he, by his own words, affirms he is an Arminian and believes such and such. Try to make him convinced that it is the Word of _God_ that speaks against him, and not just your own words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your words of encouragement. For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh to be a young calvinist again. Just about every "arminian" will agree that we are saved by grace. It is dishonest to portray your average arminian christian otherwise. If that is what your Uncle believes then that is most important. You are not worried about saving his soul anymore but making him conform to certain doctrines.
Click to expand...


The Arminian does say that they are saved by grace, but the problem is what we call grace they call the doctrine of the devil. And what they consider to be grace is nothing but "help" to use their free-will to co-operate with the agency of the Holy Spirit. That is not grace.


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## Reformed Roman

They know it was all God, they just understand it differently. They think they have the ability to choose it. That doesn't mean they don't think God enabled them to. Many of them are just confused on these things. 

I was an arminian for probably a year after getting saved..I was an arminian for a year... but I was saved for that year. 

Many arminians are saved, and very very few people are saved knowing and believing the doctrines of grace.

---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

and if they are saved, that must mean they are in Christ, they believe the gospel, and they have a foundation in that. So this is a time of fellowship. Iron sharpens Iron, and yes, as a Christian he can sharpen you too. If he can't, he's not a Christian, and if he's not, it doesn't matter if he believes in the doctrines of arminianism or Calvinism or any other ism. I like Ben's advice more then anyone's. The LORD blessed you with a good time of fellowship, maybe share how you've grown in the faith. Maybe your testimony, and continue it by how God has worked and what He has shown you. And you could mention the doctrines of grace there. Also be willing to listen to him though, realizing that you can learn something from him too.


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## Philip

> Any suggestions on Evangelising to him?



Does he trust in Christ alone for his salvation? If that's what he professes, then you shouldn't be worried about evangelizing him. I'm generally not worried about the salvific status of my Arminian friends. My attitude tends to be that of George Whitefield after he fell out with John Wesley over this issue and famously responded to the question of whether he would see Wesley in Heaven with something along the lines of "Of course not, because he'll be so much closer to the throne of Grace that I won't be able to see through the crowd."

Inconsistent theology doesn't necessarily keep someone from the kingdom. Good Arminians are Calvinists who don't know it yet.


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## VictorBravo

NB3K said:


> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!



I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you ought to rethink your words. Consider some of the most effective preaching ever recorded:



> Act 2:36-24
> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
> And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



Is not the word "repent" a word demanding a decision? It's a rethinking, certainly. And the command "save yourself." Are we to think Peter just got it wrong?

Peter does say this promise is for those whom the "Lord shall call." Nevertheless, he also preaches a command to these miserable wretches.


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## NB3K

VictorBravo said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you ought to rethink your words. Consider some of the most effective preaching ever recorded:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Act 2:36-24
> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
> And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is not the word "repent" a word demanding a decision? It's a rethinking, certainly. And the command "save yourself." Are we to think Peter just got it wrong?
> 
> Peter does say this promise is for those whom the "Lord shall call." Nevertheless, he also preaches a command to these miserable wretches.
Click to expand...


G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3326 and G3539
Citing in TDNT: 4:975, 636

Yes it does mean to change one's mind. But if one is born again by the Holy Spirit, repentance is a sure thing. When they have eyes that see, ears that hear, and a heart of flesh to understand they will all turn to Christ and he will heal them and their sins will be forgiven. 

Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."


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## InSlaveryToChrist

Zach Rohman said:


> They know it was all God, they just understand it differently. They think they have the ability to choose it. That doesn't mean they don't think God enabled them to. Many of them are just confused on these things.



I've never thought of it before, but after having reflected a while on what you said above I realized that we can become so _irrationally blind_ that we can believe simultaneosly that salvation is all of God's grace and yet that salvation is dependent on our choice to believe in and follow Christ -- because, _in our blindness_, we are unable to see the contradiction we are making. But then again, I don't believe our faith can be authentic, if we do see the contradiction between our premises -- for that is to go against conscience, which is no safe business! And not only that, we are then _fully aware _that we are attributing some of the honor of our salvation to _our_ virtue and merit, as opposed to Christ.



> I was an arminian for probably a year after getting saved..I was an arminian for a year... but I was saved for that year.



I have the same experience.



> Many arminians are saved, and very very few people are saved knowing and believing the doctrines of grace.



Amen.


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## Scott1

After you've shared the Scriptures, and come back to them in the ordinary course of discussion, here is one illustration:

Two views of salvation
Man is at the bottom of a pit and cannot get out. God sees the man in the bottom of the pit, has compassion on him and throws the man a life line to climb out. The man must hold on tightly to the rope as God pulls him out.

Man is at the bottom of a pit, dead. God sees the man, and climbs down into the pit. God puts the lifeless body on his shoulders, climbs the wall, and carries him out. God lays him down on the ground above, and breathes life into him.


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## NB3K

> Many arminians are saved, and very very few people are saved knowing and believing the doctrines of grace.



Amen.[/QUOTE]

Whatever the case may be, the fact remains that one is saved by GOd's Grace and nothing else.


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## VictorBravo

NB3K said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you ought to rethink your words. Consider some of the most effective preaching ever recorded:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Act 2:36-24
> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
> And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is not the word "repent" a word demanding a decision? It's a rethinking, certainly. And the command "save yourself." Are we to think Peter just got it wrong?
> 
> Peter does say this promise is for those whom the "Lord shall call." Nevertheless, he also preaches a command to these miserable wretches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> G3340
> μετανοέω
> metanoeō
> Thayer Definition:
> 1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
> 2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins
> Part of Speech: verb
> A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3326 and G3539
> Citing in TDNT: 4:975, 636
> 
> Yes it does mean to change one's mind. But if one is born again by the Holy Spirit, repentance is a sure thing. When they have eyes that see, ears that hear, and a heart of flesh to understand they will all turn to Christ and he will heal them and their sins will be forgiven.
> 
> Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."
Click to expand...


Right and correct. But my point was that I thought your statement was overbroad. You said:



> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works.



Peter's direct aim in his preaching was to get miserable wretches to change their mind. He knew he couldn't do it for them, that it was of God. But still, in a very real sense, he "preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision." He acted as if his preaching were a _means_. And I'm sure we can agree it was of the Gospel.


----------



## NB3K

VictorBravo said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works. It is only by grace and grace alone are we saved. I want everyone to know the Grace of God! Because it is by the grace of God that we obtain a peace that surpasses all understanding!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you ought to rethink your words. Consider some of the most effective preaching ever recorded:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Act 2:36-24
> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
> And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is not the word "repent" a word demanding a decision? It's a rethinking, certainly. And the command "save yourself." Are we to think Peter just got it wrong?
> 
> Peter does say this promise is for those whom the "Lord shall call." Nevertheless, he also preaches a command to these miserable wretches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> G3340
> μετανοέω
> metanoeō
> Thayer Definition:
> 1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
> 2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins
> Part of Speech: verb
> A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3326 and G3539
> Citing in TDNT: 4:975, 636
> 
> Yes it does mean to change one's mind. But if one is born again by the Holy Spirit, repentance is a sure thing. When they have eyes that see, ears that hear, and a heart of flesh to understand they will all turn to Christ and he will heal them and their sins will be forgiven.
> 
> Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right and correct. But my point was that I thought your statement was overbroad. You said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For I believe with my whole heart that the Gospel that is preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision is no Gospel at all but of works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Peter's direct aim in his preaching was to get miserable wretches to change their mind. He knew he couldn't do it for them, that it was of God. But still, in a very real sense, he "preached in order to get the miserable wretch to make a decision." He acted as if his preaching were a _means_. And I'm sure we can agree it was of the Gospel.
Click to expand...

 
I'll just read Calvin's Sermons on Ephesians. And I'll stay in prayer on this matter and I'll seek the Lord's will. If it is the Lord's will I will teach the doctrine of Grace to my uncle by professing my own conversion and how I used to be like him and I had no victory over sin until I finally gave up and fell into the everlasting arms of my Lord Jesus Christ.


----------



## Philip

> If it is the Lord's will I will teach the doctrine of Grace to my uncle by professing my own conversion and how I used to be like him and I had no victory over sin until I finally gave up and fell into the everlasting arms of my Lord Jesus Christ.



And what if he says "amen"? There's nothing in that language that an Arminian would disagree with. It sounds like the kind of thing John Wesley would say.


----------



## NB3K

P. F. Pugh said:


> If it is the Lord's will I will teach the doctrine of Grace to my uncle by professing my own conversion and how I used to be like him and I had no victory over sin until I finally gave up and fell into the everlasting arms of my Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what if he says "amen"? There's nothing in that language that an Arminian would disagree with. It sounds like the kind of thing John Wesley would say.
Click to expand...

 
idk how would you handle the situation?


----------



## nicnap

Jason, I think what the people here are trying to say is this: you just need to extol the goodness of God, and His great riches and mercy toward you. Everyone here believes in doctrines of grace as much as you do, and adamantly want others to hold them. But here's the rub; you are not going to change your uncle, even by clever argumentation and "irrefutable Scripture proof." Just as it is grace that saves, it is grace that sanctifies and brings men and women to a fuller understanding of the gospel. There is no need to name the doctrine of predestination to your uncle, or say unconditional election, etc. If it comes up, you simply discuss it from the Scripture, and say, "Isn't God gracious to save undeserving sinners?" Your uncle will not buck at that -- no Christian would. If he does, or he tries to offer some refutation of it, take him to Scripture. Let the names of those doctrines come later. This should be natural, not confrontational. 

There has been plenty of good advice here, take time to consider what these folks are counseling -- they've been around the block a time or two.


----------



## jwithnell

This is a road trip! You will see some awesome country! This is a great opportunity to get to know each other better, to explore common interests, to share a good time. People are usually a lot more open to discussing their theological perspectives when they have a good relationship. Lord willing, this guy isn't going to die and fall off the face of the earth next week. Share a good, general discussion, and when points of difference arise, follow the great advice you've received from other responders. In the future, you may have the chance to build on your discussions.


----------



## Philip

NB3K said:


> P. F. Pugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is the Lord's will I will teach the doctrine of Grace to my uncle by professing my own conversion and how I used to be like him and I had no victory over sin until I finally gave up and fell into the everlasting arms of my Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what if he says "amen"? There's nothing in that language that an Arminian would disagree with. It sounds like the kind of thing John Wesley would say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> idk how would you handle the situation?
Click to expand...


I wouldn't end up in that situation because I wouldn't frame the question in terms of salvation---when I converse with Arminians, I do so with the assumption that they are fellow believers in Christ, unless I have some evidence to the contrary.


----------



## steadfast7

My cheeky suggestion to get the ball rolling: before you start your journey on the road, pray, "Lord, bring me to a place where I can exercise my free will to make good driving choices that will save our lives in the event of a major collision on the road."


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## BJClark

I would also change the attitude that comes across in the words..."stuck in a car with"

You should count it a blessing that God is giving you the opportunity to get to know your uncle and yes, even a fellow Christian better. What a joy and a blessing that alone can be. 

Years ago I took a trip from Idaho to Florida with a gentleman friend of my mothers that I barely knew, I was wanting to drive home and visit my family, and he was insistent I not drive across country alone. I had my own apprehensions as I'd only met him once before (but, he was wanting to marry my mother, so I learned to look at it as an opportunity to get to know him better)

During that trip across country he and I became good friends, and over the years he became more like a father to me and a loving grandfather figure to my children, even after my mothers death he continued to be an active part of our lives until his own death. Me and my children miss him greatly and it was in the relationship that grew out of that trip that opened the door for us to have many talks about Christ and salvation and God's grace towards us. 

So please change your thinking of 'being stuck in a car with him" to one that you are being given an opportunity to really get to know someone, and who knows you may even learn a lot from him, as opposed to you 'teaching' him something.


----------



## NB3K

Brother's 

I am back! Everything worked out according to God's will. I never forced "calvinism" down anyone's throat. I only quoted Scripture to my aunt and uncle whenever they would say something that contradicted Scripture. And there was no fighting.

The only problem is that I do not think my relatives are converted. They do everything according to the way they want things done. Like the translate the Bible according to their own liking. They told me that we do not need any doctrine but only to choose Jesus. To them the only thing that matters is whether or not you have chosen Jesus for you personal savior.

So instead of seeking to teach election to them, I spent my time explaining that the work of God's grace in the heart of His children was monergistic and that unless the Lord works in the heart of a sinner, there is no hope for that sinner. When my aunt disagreed, I just went to the Scriptures. I also explained to her in a humble and graceful manner that what she believed is the reason why there was a Protestant Reformation. 

All in all I enjoyed their company. Even though there may not be fruit right away, I am completely sure I sowed the seeds of God's gospel, and now it is up to the Holy Spirit to move and work. Please pray for my aunt and uncle that the light shines in their darkened hearts and that it exposes their error and not blind them in a stupor.

For instance when my aunt said that we must use our freewill to chooses Jesus I simply quoted Isaiah 65:1

Isa 65:1 I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, "Here am I, here am I," to a nation that was not called by my name. 

My aunt read this out aloud and she looked completely dumbfounded when she finished reading it. 


---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 AM ----------




Frosty said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a consistent Calvinist, you have more reason than he does to be a humble and patient Christian. So above all else... be gracious, slow to speak, not argumentative, preferring to focus on your own shortcomings rather than on his. Four days together in a car means there is no effective apologetic unless these character traits are present to witness to the transformative power of the gospel of grace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This. Well said, Jack.
Click to expand...


What's up with you avatar? Joel Osteen??? It's Your time LOL.... Only a heretic would teach such garbage, or maybe he isn't even a heretic, but a wolf! I think it's funny, but it is all so sad, because that is the attitude of many professing believers. What is in the gospel for me (according to the flesh).


----------



## pianoman

Being an Arminian doesn't keep someone from being the elect, and therefore, not being born-again. They just have different theological and soteriological views. Although their views may not be correct 100%, I believe we will see many Armenians in Heaven. Just talk about Jesus or anything else that comes up, and enjoy your uncle's company, brother.


----------



## Philip

pianoman said:


> Being an Armenian doesn't keep someone from being the elect



Indeed---the Armenian Orthodox Church is one of the oldest Christian bodies in the world. Or were you trying to say "Arminian"?

Seriously, it's an easy spelling mistake to make.


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## InSlaveryToChrist

pianoman said:


> Being an Armenian doesn't keep someone from being the elect, and therefore, not being born-again. They just have different theological and soteriological views. Although their views may not be correct 100%, I believe we will see many Armenians in Heaven. Just talk about Jesus or anything else that comes up, and enjoy your uncle's company, brother.



Actually, being elect does not equal being born-again. There are elect who are _still_ unbelievers. But I also expect to see many Arminians in Heaven. However, that sort of Arminians will be ones who are unable to see the contradiction of their soteriology, namely, that if salvation is all of grace, man cannot contribute to his own salvation. As to those Arminians who see this contradiction, they have two options: it's all glory to God or it's some glory to man -- you cannot have them both (now that you're aware of your contradiction)! One is, then, forced to become either reformed in his soteriology, or to become an enemy of God's glory and the Gospel. But then it's good to remember that we (outsiders) cannot tell _for sure_ what sort of Arminian a person is, only God can search the heart of man.


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## NB3K

pianoman said:


> Being an Armenian doesn't keep someone from being the elect, and therefore, not being born-again. They just have different theological and soteriological views. Although their views may not be correct 100%, I believe we will see many Armenians in Heaven. Just talk about Jesus or anything else that comes up, and enjoy your uncle's company, brother.



Look there is only 1 Lord, 1 Gospel, 1 Faith, 1 Baptism, not many. The Lord Jesus said that there would be many that come and say they are Christ's. And Paul says that in the end many will amass for themselves teachers that will scratch their itchy ears. And the Lord said in Matt. 7 that many will say lord lord did we not do this or that, and Christ says depart from me I never knew you. We are suppose to judge what people say from their mouths. If one is doctrinally wrong then there is something wrong. If one professes to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them and they deny grace from their very lips, than there is something that does not add up.

Their lips ought to confess what is in their hearts. I am sorry, but after talking and LISTENING for over a week, I can say without a shed of a doubt that my aunt and uncle are not believers of what the Scriptures say. Actually they don't even know what the Scriptures say. They need prayer. I need prayer the most, but please pray that the Lord gives them ears to hear, eyes to see, and a heart to understand, so they will turn and be forgiven. 

Because I am sure if I would have dug my trench based on Scripture Alone, there would have been war. And the war would not have come from my end, but from the end that has the mind that is set on the flesh, which is at war against God. I did more listening than talking. The only time I talked Scripture was when they said something that totally contradicted Scripture. And they were totally unaware that the Scripture that I quoted was acually Scripture. My aunt loves Kay Arthur and Joyce Mayer. My uncle love TBN, and Charles Stanley, and after listening to Charles Stanley for over a week, I believe Charles Stanley does not know the Gospel.

While I was in the so-called "Bible-Belt" of the south, I noticed that the south is like totally unaware of the Grace of God. All the bilboards are placarded with nothing but LAW. Thou shall not! ect... There was no Grace on those bilboards. Our nation is in the desperate need of the knowledge of God's Grace, because we are illiterate to it. 


And not only that, but it seems like the southern churches teach the law wrongly. They beat people with it instead of using it as a schoolmaster to point to Christ and what Christ has done for us.

Does anyone think I have made an accurate judgment of all that I saw and heard? (Speaking of the South and their lack of the knowledge of God's Grace)


----------



## AThornquist

It is easy to claim that someone who differs from you "doesn't understand the Gospel." I'll tell you what, _I_ don't have a very good understanding of the Gospel, even if I think my theological ducks are in a slightly straighter row than some other people. It is that attitude of "Calvinism or nothing" that does a fantastic job of creating barriers rather than breaking them down for the sake of the Gospel.


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## VictorBravo

Jason, I am praising God that it went well and you were able to graciously hold to Scripture. It is not my place to evaluate your judgment of their spiritual condition and you are right to ask for prayer for them. I am truly happy that you were able to enjoy their company. 

It is encouraging to see a brother grow in grace and wisdom in applying God's Word to daily affairs.


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## yoyoceramic

> All in all I enjoyed their company. Even though there may not be fruit right away, I am completely sure I sowed the seeds of God's gospel, and now it is up to the Holy Spirit to move and work. Please pray for my aunt and uncle that the light shines in their darkened hearts and that it exposes their error and not blind them in a stupor.



Wonderful Jason, I am glad you had some good conversation with them. Are you praying for an opportunity to disciple or teach them further?


----------



## NB3K

yoyoceramic said:


> All in all I enjoyed their company. Even though there may not be fruit right away, I am completely sure I sowed the seeds of God's gospel, and now it is up to the Holy Spirit to move and work. Please pray for my aunt and uncle that the light shines in their darkened hearts and that it exposes their error and not blind them in a stupor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful Jason, I am glad you had some good conversation with them. Are you praying for an opportunity to disciple or teach them further?
Click to expand...


I am just praying to our Heavenly Father that He does to them as He did to me. I am not praying that they stand on every theological letter that I do, but that they come to the knowledge of the Truth. I know I sowed seeds over the field, it is up to the Holy Spirit to breath life in them.

My aunt and uncle are not Arminian's but Pelagian's. They are totally unaware to the false system of doctrine that they are under. They have never even heard of the five Sola's of the Protestant Reformation. I understand brother's that a knowledge of church history and all the theological systems are not a prerequisite for being a Child of the Most High God, but if the Spirit of God dwells within them than, there should be unity in Spirit and in Truth! That is the Truth whether we like it or not.


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## jogri17

May I suggest in locking yourself in a cage to channel James White here


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## NB3K

jogri17 said:


> May I suggest in locking yourself in a cage to channel James White here



If you do not mind, can you please elaborate. I am not understanding what you have said.


----------



## pianoman

P. F. Pugh said:


> pianoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being an Armenian doesn't keep someone from being the elect
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed---the Armenian Orthodox Church is one of the oldest Christian bodies in the world. Or were you trying to say "Arminian"?
> 
> Seriously, it's an easy spelling mistake to make.
Click to expand...


yes spelling mistake. sorry


----------



## NB3K

AThornquist said:


> It is easy to claim that someone who differs from you "doesn't understand the Gospel." I'll tell you what, _I_ don't have a very good understanding of the Gospel, even if I think my theological ducks are in a slightly straighter row than some other people. It is that attitude of "Calvinism or nothing" that does a fantastic job of creating barriers rather than breaking them down for the sake of the Gospel.





NB3K said:


> I never forced "calvinism" down anyone's throat




She told me that she was saved according to her choosing of Christ. That God has given everyone free-will to choose him. This directly contradicts Scripture. I never forced "calvinism" and I did not have the attitude that it is "calvinism" or nothing. Actually I HATE THE TERM CALVINISM! It takes away the glory of God and robs HIm who elected us according to His purpose before the foundation of the world of all honor. The term calvinism is the greatest tool the evil one has at keeping people away from the Gospel.

I simply took what they said and weighed it against what the Scriptures said and then showed them what the Scriptures said. They still denied the Scriptures. All the teacher's of the old school would say they believe in a divergent gospel ie.. one that is unbiblical, or as the apostle would say a gospel which is no Gospel at all. I don't say this proudly, but in a spirit of deep sorrow. It hurt's me to think that my family does not hold to the Scriptures and that they have been tricked into a lie of the evil one. I cried out to the Lord "PLEASE SAVE MY FAMILY!" 

If I had the "attitude" that it was "Calvinism or nothing", I would have never given 10 days of my time away from my wife and children to go serve my aunt's husband. But I did serve my aunt's husband because I believed this was a good work that God had prepared for me to walk in. And when I heard what they said, which went against Scripture, I felt compelled to lay before them the Scripture. Now who would sit and allow someone to go on in error unchallenged? If you knew someone in your family that was in great error and God has given you eyes to see and ears to here and a heart to understand, would you simply sit back and say nothing or in all humility try to show their errors in the hope that God would grant them repentance?

I would hope that you would be loving towards them and point them to Jesus Christ and that is all that I did. I never pointed them to "calvinism" but to Jesus Christ and Him crucified!


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## AThornquist

It's great to care enough about family to discuss the Scriptures with them. That's not the point (even though the unpleasant task of "having to deal with Arminians" was mentioned). What is frustrating is that more people get pulled into the "they don't understand the Gospel" zone; i.e. Charles Stanley. If you're talking about all of these matters in private, that's one thing, but there are Arminians who search through these boards who may see your simple conclusion on another person's faith and come away with nothing but apprehensiveness. This kind of talk has been quite frequent, and it's probably more detrimental than anything. But, I'll leave this thread now. Carry on.


----------



## NB3K

AThornquist said:


> But, I'll leave this thread now. Carry on



Why leave? Please stay I am encouraged by people like you. SERIOUSLY I AM!

Here I was just explaining what happened on the trip that I was on.




AThornquist said:


> there are Arminians who search through these boards who may see your simple conclusion



It was not a simple conclusion that I came to, but a simple cross-examination of what they said and what the Scripture's said. Instead of causing strife in debate, I simply followed after A W Pink when he wrote,

Our first thought was to devote an introductory chapter unto a setting forth the principle errors which have been entertained upon this subject by different men and parties, but after more deliberation we decided this would be for little or no profit to the majority of our readers. While there are times, no doubt, when it becomes the distasteful duty of God's servants to expose that which is calculated to deceive and injure His people, yet, as a general rule, the most effective way of getting rid of darkness is to let in the light. 

Pink, Arthur W. (2011). Reformed Classics: The Doctrine of Justification (Kindle Locations 5-9). Reformed Classics. Kindle Edition. 

I am learning that debate is not always the most helpful way of spreading the Gospel. That instead of arguing with those who have no life and who are in darkness, if would just be better to open the Scripture's (shine the light on them) and let the Holy Spirit blow His life giving breath upon them.

As for Arminians reading these posts, I hope they will come to the conclusion, that when they read what I post, they will say "Aha here is one who actually stands on the principle of Scripture Alone." And they get led to the King of Glory.

It is people like you that have molded my mind and the way I teach. I am greatly indebted to you all.


----------



## JM

I recently heard a preacher say something like, 

"Arminians say, 'I'm saved by grace BUT,' then go about BUTTING all the grace out of salvation." 

Pray, know that God's will be done and speak about the scriptures frankly.


----------



## Joseph Scibbe

JM said:


> I recently heard a preacher say something like,
> 
> "Arminians say, 'I'm saved by grace BUT,' then go about BUTTING all the grace out of salvation."
> 
> Pray, know that God's will be done and speak about the scriptures frankly.



I heard a preacher say "Calvinists don't believe in evangelism because God will just save people". See, I can make general statements about a theological camp without any real honesty. This whole thread has been really sad. I don't like the attitude that "Well, they don't hold 100% to my awesome confession and therefore they aren't saved". The Scriptures teach that there are different stages in the life of a Christian starting with milk and moving to meat. I don't know how long your family members have known Christ but you can't and shouldn't expecct young and immature belivers to be pro theologians. I know you say you may hate the term calvinism but the fact is you are acting in the way that Andrew said. You have shown very little grace toward the growth your family needs to experience. Becoming a "calvinist" often is a long process that will involve a lot of questioning. I would ask how long you have been a...whatever your replacement for the tem calvinist is?


----------



## NB3K

Joseph Scibbe said:


> I don't like the attitude that "Well, they don't hold 100% to my awesome confession and therefore they aren't saved".



You cannot find that in my posts on this thread.

You will find me making these kind of statements:


NB3K said:


> The only time I talked Scripture was when they said something that totally contradicted Scripture.





NB3K said:


> I am not praying that they stand on every theological letter that I do, but that they come to the knowledge of the Truth.






Joseph Scibbe said:


> I don't know how long your family members have known Christ but you can't and shouldn't expecct young and immature belivers to be pro theologians.



My aunt is 60 and she would lay claim that she was born-again in the 1960's and her husband who is 74, would say he has been a christian from his pre-teen years. I never put a bar for them to reach to in the "theological" scale of things, but I just wanted them to see that what they said contradicted not the so-called confessions but the Word of God which we are suppose to conform to. I did it this way so that they will KNOW THAT SCRIPTURE REFUTES THEIR CLAIM! And in doing so there eyes would be opened to the truth. It was never to put myself above them but at their feet in an attempt to spread the Truth.

I know God knows what the intention of my heart was. Even though I have a habit of destroying the way I deliver the truth. This is why I only quoted Scripture Alone, and left my arguments to myself hoping that the Holy Spirit would move and they would come to praise God's Glorious Grace! 




Joseph Scibbe said:


> I would ask how long you have been a...whatever your replacement for the tem calvinist is?



I have been a Christian since 2007 or 2008. I cannot put a finger on the day that Christ made me alive, but I have known the doctrine of God's Grace for 2 and a half years and even though I mess up and refer it as "Cavlinism" I HATE THE TERM. Calvin was not the first to teach the doctrine of grace. Before him was Augustine, Paul, Jesus, the Prophets and Moses. I would call it The Way! The Truth! And The Life! Call it Christianity 101.


----------



## InSlaveryToChrist

NB3K said:


> I have been a Christian since 2007 or 2008. I cannot put a finger on the day that Christ made me alive, but I have known the doctrine of God's Grace for 2 and a half years and even though I mess up and refer it as "Cavlinism" I HATE THE TERM. Calvin was not the first to teach the doctrine of grace. Before him was Augustine, Paul, Jesus, the Prophets and Moses. I would call it The Way! The Truth! And The Life! Call it Christianity 101.



But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"


----------



## NB3K

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"



Yes.

But I just call it the Gospel, because it starts off at showing us by the Law that we are condemned, and it points----> to Christ and His crucifiction. What God has done for us because we were not able to do it by works. That God loved us so much that He left His throne to fulfill what He had required of us. Like when all Paul wanted to know was Christ and Him Crucified was all one needs to know. Knowing Christ and Him crucified is having eternal life. That knowledge comes by faith, and that faith is spoken in to us by the Holy Spirit and this all springs from the Fountain of Election which is all of GRACE!


----------



## JM

Joseph Scibbe said:


> I heard a preacher say "Calvinists don't believe in evangelism because God will just save people". See, I can make general statements about a theological camp without any real honesty. *This whole thread has been really sad.*



Is that a general statement without real honesty? I think so.

The church is infected with the spirit of ecumenicalism and a minimalist Gospel.


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## Philip

Jason, I appreciate your zeal, but here is the question that I must ask you: do your aunt and uncle trust in Christ for their salvation? If you asked them "do you trust in Christ alone for your salvation" what do you think they would say? I feel as if you have gotten so hung up on _sola gratia_ and _sola fide_ that you have forgotten the central _sola_: _solus Christus_. As I said, I appreciate your zeal, but don't presume to judge the hearts of those who claim the name of Christ. If your aunt and uncle say that Christ and Christ alone is their savior, then take them at their word. We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not by an affirmation of the doctrine of _sola fide_. I've debated this issue with plenty of Arminians, and have rarely found reason to doubt their salvation, even when they were unconvinced by my Scriptural argument.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------




NB3K said:


> I would call it The Way! The Truth! And The Life! Call it Christianity 101.



So the doctrine of predestination is one that a Christian must not reject? I don't recall it being included in the Nicene Creed. I guess I need to go and tell my Wesleyan brothers that they need to repent.


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## JM

It has been my experience that many Arminians believe Christ is powerless to save without their say so. Is _this Christ_, the Christ of Arminianism the Christ of scripture? I'm not saying Arminians are not "saved" but they do have major theological issues and Jason should be a witness to the truth.


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## NB3K

Rom_16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

1Ti_1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

1Ti_6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 

Tit_1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 

Tit_2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. 

What does the Scriptures say about Doctrine?


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## Reformed Roman

They have theological issues but this is one of the major problems within churches. Many in Reformed churches feel they are superior to all Arminians. We have such a superior view of the Bible and scriptures. I believe our beliefs are more on then theirs, yes. But there is so much we can learn from Arminians. If someone is saved, we can learn much from them, Arminian or not.

We shouldn't be teaching Arminians the doctrines of grace, if we aren't willing to listen and grow from what they have to say too. Arminians aren't just stuck in the lowest part of Christianity and staying there. Many Arminians are "Calvanistic" in many of their beliefs. An example would be prayer. Many believe that God doesn't have to answer your prayers, but He can. Many arminians realize our prayers matter and God's commanded us to pray. Sometimes since we are reformed we sit on the belief of God's sovereignty and forget about our prayer lives.

My main point is there is a ton you can learn from an Arminian, and if your whole point everytime you minister to an Arminian is to teach, and not be taught, your probably in the sin of pride. Because all Christians can edify you in some way, and they shouldn't be looked down upon. These are our brothers and sisters who accepted Christ. There is far too much pride within churches today just because of theological knowledge. Knowledge puffs up. I would take a Arminian who applies the scriptures to His life over a theological giant who has head knowledge but doesn't apply it, and I would take that Arminian any day of the week.


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## Joseph Scibbe

JM said:


> Joseph Scibbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard a preacher say "Calvinists don't believe in evangelism because God will just save people". See, I can make general statements about a theological camp without any real honesty. *This whole thread has been really sad.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a general statement without real honesty? I think so.
> 
> The church is infected with the spirit of ecumenicalism and a minimalist Gospel.
Click to expand...


Nope, I honestly think that this thread is sad. You said that Arminians don't believe in grace. Your statement is simply a not true statement; mine was an opinion. What is so wrong with saying "I know we don't agree on everything but lets put our minor differences aside and focus on preaching the Gospel that Jesus died and rose for salvation"?

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------




NB3K said:


> Rom_16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
> 
> 1Ti_1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
> 
> 1Ti_6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
> 1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
> 1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
> 
> Tit_1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
> 
> Tit_2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
> 
> What does the Scriptures say about Doctrine?



No one is saying not to teach and believe sound doctrine. We are saying don't start a war over this issue.


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## JM

Joseph Scibbe said:


> Nope, I honestly think that this thread is sad. You said that Arminians don't believe in grace. Your statement is simply a not true statement;



Arminians explain away grace with their, "it was I who choose Him" statements. 



> mine was an opinion. What is so wrong with saying "I know we don't agree on everything but lets put our minor differences aside and focus on preaching the Gospel that Jesus died and rose for salvation"?



Yes, opinion. We can learn about Christ dying and getting up from the grave in many books and in many religions. The Gospel is what that death accomplished on behalf of His people. 

j


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## NB3K

Joseph Scibbe said:


> You said that Arminians don't believe in grace. Your statement is simply a not true statement; mine was an opinion. What is so wrong with saying "I know we don't agree on everything but lets put our minor differences aside and focus on preaching the Gospel that Jesus died and rose for salvation"?



If the Arminians believed in grace, there would be no such thing as Calvinists. Or the Synod of Dort. Remember the five points of so-called Calvinism was a refutation to the five points of the remonstrants.

And I do not take the Doctrine of Grace as such a small thing. Paul says,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


I cannot sit in a building and subject myself to leaders of a Church that do not know Grace. And I will not. 

Right now in my church we are battling out this very issue. We are suppose to be a "Reformed" denomination, but for the sake of fellowship the hard truth's of Scripture has been compromised by men that have shown more fear to men then to God and we are the ones that are being called to repent because we are creating divisons within the Church.

I hate being told that I need to be more "open-minded" and my reply is always No! we need to be "Biblically minded".


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## Joseph Scibbe

NB3K said:


> Joseph Scibbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said that Arminians don't believe in grace. Your statement is simply a not true statement; mine was an opinion. What is so wrong with saying "I know we don't agree on everything but lets put our minor differences aside and focus on preaching the Gospel that Jesus died and rose for salvation"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Arminians believed in grace, there would be no such thing as Calvinists. Or the Synod of Dort. Remember the five points of so-called Calvinism was a refutation to the five points of the remonstrants.
> 
> And I do not take the Doctrine of Grace as such a small thing. Paul says,
> 
> Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
> Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
> Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
> 
> 
> I cannot sit in a building and subject myself to leaders of a Church that do not know Grace. And I will not.
> 
> Right now in my church we are battling out this very issue. We are suppose to be a "Reformed" denomination, but for the sake of fellowship the hard truth's of Scripture has been compromised by men that have shown more fear to men then to God and we are the ones that are being called to repent because we are creating divisons within the Church.
> 
> I hate being told that I need to be more "open-minded" and my reply is always No! we need to be "Biblically minded".
Click to expand...


Forget it. This thread is frustrating me and I don't want to end up saying something harsh so I am just going to drop the subject.


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## Reformed Roman

Ariminians know grace. The gospel is a gospel of grace. And they DO know the gospel. If they didn't, they couldn't and wouldn't be saved. So they know grace. How deeply? That's another question. But they are Christians, and should be treated as such, and should be treated as a people who DO know God. And some of them know God in a far greater way then us in the Puritan Board (no matter how many points we know, how many confessions, or anything). They know God, division should be shunned and they should be brothers to us.


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## JM

Unsubscribing.


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## Philip

NB3K said:


> I hate being told that I need to be more "open-minded" and my reply is always No! we need to be "Biblically minded".



Open-mindedness has nothing to do with this. Charity toward individuals and not judging their walk has everything to do with it. Also, Jason, be sure that your motivation here isn't to be right. It's very easy for doctrinally-minded Christians like yourself (and myself, in all honesty) to get so caught-up in being right that we forget to be rightly related to our brother. The minute that you cease to be loving in your presentation of the truth, you have lost sight of that truth. The minute that you cease to extend charity toward your brother in your presentation of the doctrine of grace, you have shown that you really do not understand grace at all. Reformed believers ought to pay particular attention to the message to the Church at Ephesus in Revelation: a church where all their doctrine was nice and tight and theologically correct, but where their love had died.

It's very easy to let such discussions become matters of pride---being right.


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## InSlaveryToChrist

NB3K said:


> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> But I just call it the Gospel, because it starts off at showing us by the Law that we are condemned, and it points----> to Christ and His crucifiction.
Click to expand...


So, you're saying Calvinism IS the Gospel? You might want to read this thread carefully through: http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/calvinism-gospel-65642/ I recommend you to read Matthew Winzer's comments -- he made some great points on the matter. But if you desire a quick answer: Calvinism IS NOT the Gospel.

If you're not eager to read the whole thread, here are the top 2 comments that settled the issue, in my opinion:

“It is probably best to say that Calvinism is presupposed rather than understood. E.g., "sins" presupposes total depravity; "our" presupposes absolute predestination, "died for" presupposes particular redemption; "rose again" presupposes effectual calling and perseverance. If one develops an understanding which undermines this theological framework he denies the basis of the gospel and thereby weakens his own faith. This is what our old divines meant by calling the doctrines of grace the gospel -- they are the theological framework of the gospel.” - Rev. Matthew Winzer

“Calvinism is not the Gospel. However, the Gospel is understood and expressed most clearly, most completely and most beautifully within the framework of Calvinism.” - Jack K.


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## yoyoceramic

Brother,

How does a *hand grenade* labeled 'Romans 9' saying "I'm off to fight the arminians" to a bunch of tulips communicate a "humble and graceful" (your words #43) attitude towards our brothers in Christ? I only ask because this is what your current profile picture shows.


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## NB3K

InSlaveryToChrist said:


> NB3K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> InSlaveryToChrist said:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> But I just call it the Gospel, because it starts off at showing us by the Law that we are condemned, and it points----> to Christ and His crucifiction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you're saying Calvinism IS the Gospel? You might want to read this thread carefully through: http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/calvinism-gospel-65642/ I recommend you to read Matthew Winzer's comments -- he made some great points on the matter. But if you desire a quick answer: Calvinism IS NOT the Gospel.
> 
> If you're not eager to read the whole thread, here are the top 2 comments that settled the issue, in my opinion:
> 
> “It is probably best to say that Calvinism is presupposed rather than understood. E.g., "sins" presupposes total depravity; "our" presupposes absolute predestination, "died for" presupposes particular redemption; "rose again" presupposes effectual calling and perseverance. If one develops an understanding which undermines this theological framework he denies the basis of the gospel and thereby weakens his own faith. This is what our old divines meant by calling the doctrines of grace the gospel -- they are the theological framework of the gospel.” - Rev. Matthew Winzer
> 
> “Calvinism is not the Gospel. However, the Gospel is understood and expressed most clearly, most completely and most beautifully within the framework of Calvinism.” - Jack K.
Click to expand...



I never said "Calvinism" is the Gospel, I did say that Grace is the Gospel. Grace is Good News compared to the LAW.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------




yoyoceramic said:


> Brother,
> 
> How does a *hand grenade* labeled 'Romans 9' saying "I'm off to fight the arminians" to a bunch of tulips communicate a "humble and graceful" (your words #43) attitude towards our brothers in Christ? I only ask because this is what your current profile picture shows.


.

Well have you read Romans 9? Because Romans 9 refutes Arminianism totally.

BTW, How have I been humble and graceful? I gave up time with my wife and children to navigate my uncle across the country so his wife which is my aunt could have her husband home. In other words I humbled myself by giving up what I loved most for the sake of someone else (one needs to humble themselves to put others first) While I was serving them, I shared the Scriptures with them. (Which is a Grace) I kept back from teaching the most decisive doctrines and just kept with SALVATION IS OF THE LORD. After listening to them, I felt that they were not ready for the tougher meat to chew on. I did not insist my own way on them. BUT I DID NOT COMPROMISE MY FAITH FOR FELLOWSHIP EITHER!

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------




Joseph Scibbe said:


> No one is saying not to teach and believe sound doctrine. We are saying don't start a war over this issue.



When the Protestant Reformation was kicking off in full swing, Rome burnt those professing Protestants. Read about what happened to the Huegonaunts. Read what happened to the puritans in England. in the 16/17th centuries Rome lit the night skies with the bodies of Protestans. Did Rome or the Protestants start the war? Just think if Martin Luther did what he was told to do, which was basically SHUT UP! There would have been many poor protestants spared such a horrible death (being burnt at a stake for their faith). And Rome would still have the Word of God tucked away from the common language of the people. Everyone here would most likely never know what the Scriptures say. (And it seems that it really doesn't matter what the Scriptures say anyhow. We still continue to be like sheep gone astray each to his or her own way.)

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------




JM said:


> The church is infected with the spirit of ecumenicalism and a minimalist Gospel.



Ecumenicalism should be Repent and Believe what the Scriptures Declare. People ought to read the parables that Jesus taught they hurt so bad to the flesh, but wow they are so rich meat to the soul.


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## Philip

NB3K said:


> Grace is Good News compared to the LAW.



And why would an Arminian disagree with you on that point?




NB3K said:


> BUT I DID NOT COMPROMISE MY FAITH FOR FELLOWSHIP EITHER!



No need to shout. Fellowshiping with an erring brother does not compromise your faith in the least. Just because he is in error does not make him any less your brother in the faith.



NB3K said:


> Did Rome or the Protestants start the war?



Rome did. Rome left Luther---Luther was the catholic.

Jason, you're making ridiculous comparisons here. As I said, I appreciate your zeal, but you have, I think, failed in your message of grace. If you want to communicate grace, then you have to be gracious. And one may have the grace of God without understanding it fully---this is the case with most Arminians. Indeed, I'm not always sure that _I_ understand grace fully.


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## Joseph Scibbe

NB3K said:


> Originally Posted by Joseph Scibbe
> No one is saying not to teach and believe sound doctrine. We are saying don't start a war over this issue.
> When the Protestant Reformation was kicking off in full swing, Rome burnt those professing Protestants. Read about what happened to the Huegonaunts. Read what happened to the puritans in England. in the 16/17th centuries Rome lit the night skies with the bodies of Protestans. Did Rome or the Protestants start the war? Just think if Martin Luther did what he was told to do, which was basically SHUT UP! There would have been many poor protestants spared such a horrible death (being burnt at a stake for their faith). And Rome would still have the Word of God tucked away from the common language of the people. Everyone here would most likely never know what the Scriptures say. (And it seems that it really doesn't matter what the Scriptures say anyhow. We still continue to be like sheep gone astray each to his or her own way.)



Are you honestly comparing yourself to Martin Luther and your family to the Catholic Church?


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## NB3K

P. F. Pugh said:


> No need to shout. Fellowshiping with an erring brother does not compromise your faith in the least. Just because he is in error does not make him any less your brother in the faith.



Ok so we fellowship with erring brothers by sweeping their error out of the way instead of rebuking them and building them up in the faith. Well in that case let's call the Romanist fellow brother';s in the faith also because they only err in points of doctrine too. My Bible tells me not to have anything to do with those that create divisons that are contrary to true doctrine. I proclaim doctrine that we are suppose to believe and I get rebuked for wanting to share it to erring brothers, but they are defended because they just don't know.....


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## Philip

NB3K said:


> Ok so we fellowship with erring brothers by sweeping their error out of the way instead of rebuking them and building them up in the faith.



How are you so sure that you have all your theological ducks in a row here? Is it possible that this brother, for all his theological ignorance, might have something to teach you? It's actually rather strange for me arguing this way, given that most of my friends would say that I argue too much---but my argument generally presupposes that the one it is targeted at is already saved, trusting in Christ, and therefore what I have in common with him (or her) is infinitely greater than our differences.

I'm reminded here of the famous falling-out between George Whitefield (Calvinist) and John Wesley (Arminian) which led to a split in their evangelistic movement. Whitefield was asked by someone close to him whether he expected to see Wesley in Heaven. Whitefield responded that he did not, in fact, expect to see Wesley in Heaven given that Wesley would be so much closer to the Throne of Grace that he (Whitefield) wouldn't be able to see him through the crowd.

If I only fellowshipped with those who agree with me on all points of doctrine, I wouldn't be able to fellowship with anyone.



NB3K said:


> Well in that case let's call the Romanist fellow brother';s in the faith also because they only err in points of doctrine too.



That is a discussion for another time.


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## Southern Presbyterian

MODERATION

This thread has reached the end of its usefulness.


----------

