# Why is it that some people walk a road marked with continual suffering?



## Mindaboo (Jul 28, 2010)

I made this my Facebook status a couple of days ago. It has sparked some great conversations, so I thought I would ask the question here to see what all my PB brothers and sisters think.

Why is it that some people walk a road marked with continual suffering while others seem to suffer very little?


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## Scott1 (Jul 28, 2010)

No way for us limited creatures to answer a question that involves the infinite perspective and purposes of God!

Basically, we have the revealed will of God by His Word, the Scriptures.

The "secret" will of God is within the context of His infinite and eternal purposes.


> Deuteronomy 29:29
> 
> 29The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.



But there is more to it than God merely keeping things "secret" from His creatures. His creatures could not contain, evaluate or understand His purposes.

God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The creatures God has created are not.

John Calvin quoted the Latin maxim, _finitum ex capax infinitum_. It means the finite cannot grasp, contain the infinite.

So it is when we try to evaluate the intricacies of the ways of our sovereign, eternal Creator through the prism of our limited understanding.

We couldn't understand it all, even if He explained it to us. Not even possible.


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## MarieP (Jul 28, 2010)

Mindaboo said:


> I made this my Facebook status a couple of days ago. It has sparked some great conversations, so I thought I would ask the question here to see what all my PB brothers and sisters think.
> 
> Why is it that some people walk a road marked with continual suffering while others seem to suffer very little?


 
For so it seemed good in God's sight.


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## CNJ (Jul 28, 2010)

I enjoyed the Facebook thread you started. We are not always given the "whys". Ecclesiastes 3 talks about seasons of life and certainly I have seen that in my life. Romans 5 talks about suffering and all the growth that comes from it. Another verse talks about how we can strengthen others when we have gone through something.

Sometimes we add suffering to our life by anticipating problems that do not materialize. Or we suffer because we don't trust that God is big enough for the problems when they come. 

I don't have an answer for why some go through very little suffering--yet. If we envy them, then we are not following the 10th commandment.


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## Mindaboo (Jul 28, 2010)

For me it's not really a matter of envy. I wrestle with why the battle is long and drawn out in my own life. I know the Lord is at work and that each trial is designed for my personal santification and refinement. 

I think we can know why some people suffer more than others on some level. It is obviously God's will for us to suffer. He promises that our faith will become steadfast. We learn a lot during those times.

I see that trials are considered something to be counted as joyful, so why do we always put such a negative light on it. If the Lord is disciplining me He is showing me He loves me. If I am not being chastised then I would think he didn't love me. Trials bring out our hearts deepest thoughts. I can say that in all honesty it has made me reflect a lot on my own behaviors and sins. The Lord broke me out of my shell and gave me compassion for others through my trials and burdens. I have seen the Lord's goodness in these times.

The more I reflect on these ideas the more I realize those who don't suffer aren't going to experience the same joy. I almost feel sorry for them.

I am just curious about what other people think about these things.


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## Jack K (Jul 28, 2010)

We need to say clearly that if we are believers it is NOT punishment for sin. I realize we all know this. But we need to keep saying it because many people's hearts will tend to think it, even if their brains know better. Any punishment for sin came fully upon Jesus. Anything that happens to us is in line with God's love for us, even where he allows the brokenness and evils of the world to cause us great temporary pain.

One answer is: "It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons" (Hebrews 12:7). Even as we legitimately hate and fight the evils that beset us, we recognize that God turns them into discipline (not in the "punishment" sense of the word but in the "training" sense). They are evidence that he loves us as his children. So we could say some believers face continual suffering because God loves them very much. At least, that's how I read the answer given in Hebrews.


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## TimV (Jul 28, 2010)

> We need to say clearly that if we are believers it is NOT punishment for sin.



That's just not true. You can say sin has repercussions and at the same time say God still deals with us from a basis of love. A homosexual can receive the penalty of his sin in his own body like AIDS and after conversion to Christianity still have to live with the punishment. And even with sin after conversion, the Lord chastens those He loves.


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## puritan628 (Jul 28, 2010)

Mindaboo said:


> The more I reflect on these ideas the more I realize those who don't suffer aren't going to experience the same joy. I almost feel sorry for them.


 
It's been my experience, and with the knowledge and wisdom I've gained from scripture and Biblical teaching over the years, that two things are true:

1) If we obey we'll be blessed, and if we disobey we'll be cursed. Since some Christians were taught this maxim from childhood, they may not suffer outwardly as much as those of us who were converted as an adult. However, that doesn't mean we aren't all refined by God. It might take more heat to extract the dross of my earlier disobedience than for one who was generally obedient to God's commandments throughout his/her life.

BUT ...

2) I've also learned that suffering is relative to each individual. Even though I might look upon another woman at my church who was obedient to God's commandments growing up and seems to lead a life blessed by God, incurring little if any wrath from God, I have learned that she too goes through struggles and hardships even though others might not see them visually. And what, to me, might seem to be a relatively minor struggle, to her it's still God's work in her heart, the work of sanctification. Who am I to question the quantifiable visibility of one's suffering?

I hope my comments make sense. I know what I'm thinking, but I don't always communicate them effectively (communication major that I am).


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## christiana (Jul 28, 2010)

One thing we do know and that is 'He knows the way that I take and when He has tried me I shall come forth as gold!'

He gives us all things and should we desire to control the what and how and when or to resist His will?

I've recently had questions as to why this chapter of my life is so blessed and I am so full of gratitude when earlier chapters of my life were wrought with loss and suffering! It is all His will and His timing and we never know what the day will bring forth.


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## Mindaboo (Jul 28, 2010)

> We need to say clearly that if we are believers it is NOT punishment for sin.



I would agree with this point. The Scriptures seem to indicate that punishment has eternal consequence while discipline is a sign of the Lord's love upon us. I



> If we obey we'll be blessed, and if we disobey we'll be cursed. Since some Christians were taught this maxim from childhood, they may not suffer outwardly as much as those of us who were converted as an adult. However, that doesn't mean we aren't all refined by God. It might take more heat to extract the dross of my earlier disobedience than for one who was generally obedient to God's commandments throughout his/her life.



I agree, but I have also had people assume that my trials are all consequences of sin. I don't think we can say that all discipline is a consequence of our sin. So, how do we discern when those disciplines are a consequence for sin?


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## Tripel (Jul 28, 2010)

TimV said:


> > We need to say clearly that if we are believers it is NOT punishment for sin.
> 
> 
> 
> That's just not true. You can say sin has repercussions and at the same time say God still deals with us from a basis of love. A homosexual can receive the penalty of his sin in his own body like AIDS and after conversion to Christianity still have to live with the punishment. And even with sin after conversion, the Lord chastens those He loves.


 
While AIDS in the body of a homosexual can be a_ consequence_ of promiscuous behavior, it is not _punishment_ for sin.


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## TimV (Jul 28, 2010)

Receiving the penalty of their error isn't punishment? Then there's no punishment for anything any time. "This thing displeased the Lord". When you read that and see a family swallowed up by the ground or blasted with fire or killed and eaten by worms shouldn't you see that as punishment? Is grounding a kid for a week punishment or something that just happens naturally on it's own?


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## baron (Jul 28, 2010)

That is an age old question. Did not Asaph question this in Psalm 73? All I can say is God knows and maybe one day in heaven he will share his reason. 

I know that as a depraved person maybe I suffer because of my sin or maybe its for the glory of God.


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## Jack K (Jul 28, 2010)

TimV said:


> > We need to say clearly that if we are believers it is NOT punishment for sin.
> 
> 
> 
> That's just not true. You can say sin has repercussions and at the same time say God still deals with us from a basis of love. A homosexual can receive the penalty of his sin in his own body like AIDS and after conversion to Christianity still have to live with the punishment. And even with sin after conversion, the Lord chastens those He loves.



Sin has repercussions, yes. Sin has consequences, even for believers. And God will use these to discipline us in the training sense. But this is not the same as punishment. _If we are believers_, Jesus got the punishment—_all_ the punishment—for our sin.


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## Tripel (Jul 28, 2010)

TimV said:


> Is grounding a kid for a week punishment or something that just happens naturally on it's own?


 
As Jack has pointed out, I think there's a confusion over the word "punishment". God doesn't punish twice for the same sins--that wouldn't be just. Thankfully, Christians never see an ounce of the punishment that our sins deserve.

When a murderer is put to death, that is punishment for a a crime against the state. The sin itself can only be punished by God, either onto the person in damnation or onto Christ. When a child is grounded for telling a lie, the parent is exercising discipline. The parent is not punishing sins, because ultimately the sins are committed against God.


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## christiana (Jul 28, 2010)

Consider also that this thread is placed in Pilgrim's Progress forum and remember all the characters that represented so much difficulty for Christian, and know it is how our Lord grows us, to test us and show us our lacks, test our strengths, humble us in our pride and ready us more into His likeness for His kingdom!


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## py3ak (Jul 28, 2010)

Tripel said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > Is grounding a kid for a week punishment or something that just happens naturally on it's own?
> ...


 
[Moderator]*Gentlemen (Daniel, Tim, Jack), let's keep the argument about punishment separate. If you want to pursue, let me know and I'll split the posts off. But this thread should be preserved for reflections on Mindy's question.[/*Moderator]


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## py3ak (Jul 28, 2010)

Mindaboo said:


> So, how do we discern when those disciplines are a consequence for sin?


 
That is a difficult point. God was moved against Job "without cause" - that is to say, He had no controversy with Job. And yet Job was put through severe afflictions, so obviously it cannot be taken for granted that all afflictions are chastening - that they are a loving response to sin. They are always loving, but not necessarily connected with a specific transgression or sinful habit.

In one sense, it doesn't matter: neither chastening nor general conformity to Christ in His sufferings is a proof of condemnation. In other words, you don't need to figure out why "God is mad at you".

But since chastening is intended to take you away from sin and call you to repentance, of course we do want to know what has brought the rod upon us in those cases where it is chastening. I daresay that since God's intention is your sanctification, He isn't likely to leave you entirely in the dark, but will brings things to your attention from His word - as He sent prophets to predict and interpret the afflictions He was bringing upon His people. Another point, drawing on Matthew Henry's remark that we are often beaten with the arm of flesh in which we trusted, is that perhaps chastening afflictions are likely to bear an organic connection to the sins they are meant to correct: thus for showing the Babylonians the treasures of Judah, Judah lost its treasures to the Babylonians. 

There is probably more to say than that, but I don't think I can go any farther.


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## Jack K (Jul 28, 2010)

Mindaboo said:


> So, how do we discern when those disciplines are a consequence for sin?



When we can clearly connect the consequence with the sin, there's probably a lesson to learn there. We can reasonably assume God wants to correct us due to our sin. Say I stole something and I got caught. It may be safe to suggest God let me get caught to teach me a lesson.

It's far more hazardous to go through life making connections from hardships to unrelated sin. Say I told a lie today. Then this afternoon a loved one is injured in a car wreck. If I start to think the wreck happened because God is trying to get my attention about the lie, I'll be overcome with guilty feelings that shouldn't be there. God may indeed use that car wreck in my life, and it may mature me to the point I become a more truthful person. But we do not have a tit-for-tat Father nor one who typically responds to individual sins by giving us a hard time. His ways are wiser, kinder and far more sophisticated than that.

It's always good to be aware of our sin and constantly repenting. While I suppose some hardships might help us realize our sin, we ought to be eager to repent even if we can't first connect the dots from that sin to a particular hardship. The only thing we can assume about our hardships with 100% certainty is that God ordained them and they reflect his Fatherly love. That generally should be enough. Nothing else we might learn could possibly be more useful.


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## Mushroom (Jul 28, 2010)

> incurring little if any wrath from God


If I incur any of the wrath of God I shall surely be laid waste and lost forever. I thank Him for this:


> Rom 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


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## JBaldwin (Jul 28, 2010)

> 2) I've also learned that suffering is relative to each individual. Even though I might look upon another woman at my church who was obedient to God's commandments growing up and seems to lead a life blessed by God, incurring little if any wrath from God, I have learned that she too goes through struggles and hardships even though others might not see them visually. And what, to me, might seem to be a relatively minor struggle, to her it's still God's work in her heart, the work of sanctification. Who am I to question the quantifiable visibility of one's suffering?



This is also a lesson I have learned. What is suffering to me is often not suffering to another person. Suffering doesn't just loosen sin's grip on us, it also draws us nearer to Christ. It is in suffering that we know His grace, peace and presence, often more than at other times in our lives. How I find I must cling to Christ when times are difficult. It teaches me to cling to Him when things are not difficult. The deepest joy often comes after the deepest times of suffering.


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