# Taking heed of the flock and Megachurches (Baxter’s The Reformed Pastor)



## Otávio Maziero (Jan 23, 2022)

Hello,

I go to a baptist megachurch (20.000 members), and have been severely affected by the absence and distance with the Pastors.

They dont have time to take care of the flock, and they pass their responsabilities to “leaders” who are a lot of times young and unprepared.

I know dozens of cases of people who went out of the faith, struggled with sin, cheated on wives, and no Pastor has even talked to them.

Is it wrong for a megachurch to exist? Is it wrong for the pastor to pass part of his responsabilities to “leaders”?

Most use that passage where Moses chooses 70 people to solve the Issues of the people, because he could not do it Alone.

I just read Baxter being against it in “The Reformed Pastor”. Please give me biblical answers.
I know Spurgeons’ congregation was huge. How did he take care of so many people?

Please help me, biblically. This is very important, because here in Brazil, most pentecostal pastors have passed their responsabilities to “leaders”.
And I have never seen someone at least try to apply Baxter’s principles.

I will quote some of Baxters’ words:

“When we are commanded to take heed to all the flock, it is plainly implied that flocks must ordinarily be no greater than we are capable of overseeing or “taking heed to.” God will not lay upon us natural impossibilities: he will not bind men to leap up to the moon, touch the stars, or number the sands of the sea. If the pastoral office consists in overseeing all the flock, then surely the number of souls under the care of each pastor must not be greater than he is able to take heed to as required here. Will God require one bishop to take the charge of a whole county, or of so many parishes or thousands of souls, that he is not able to know or oversee them? Or indeed to take sole government of them, while their particular teachers are free from that undertaking? Would God require the blood of so many parishes at one man’s hands, if he does not do what ten, or twenty, or a hundred, or three hundred men could no more do than him? If so, I can move a mountain. Then woe to poor prelates!3 Is it not, then, a most doleful case, that learned, sober men would plead for this as a desirable privilege; that they would willfully draw onto themselves such a burden; and that they do not instead tremble at the thought of so great an undertaking? How happy it would have been for the Church, and happy for the bishops themselves, if this measure, intimated by the apostle here, had still been observed: that the diocese be no greater than the elders or bishops could oversee and rule, so that they might have taken heed to all the flock; or that pastors had been multiplied as churches increased, and the number of overseers been proportioned to the number of souls. Then they might not have left the work undone while they assumed empty titles, and undertook impossibilities! And rather that they had prayed the Lord of the harvest to send forth more laborers, proportioned to the work, and not undertaken it all themselves. I would scarcely commend the prudence or humility of a laborer, however great his rank, who would not only undertake to gather in all the harvest in this county by himself, and do so upon pain of death, even damnation, but who would also earnestly contend for this power.

(…) It is, you see, all the flock, that is, every individual member of our charge. To this end, it is necessary to know every person that belongs to our charge; for how can we take heed to them if we do not know them? We must labor to be acquainted, not only with the persons, but with the state of all our people, with their inclinations and conversations. What sins are they are most in danger of? What duties are they most apt to neglect? What temptations are they most liable to? For if we do not know their temperament or disease, then we are not likely to prove successful physicians.
Being thus acquainted with all the flock, we must afterward take heed to them. One would imagine that every reasonable man would be satisfied of this, and that it would need no further proof. Does a careful shepherd not look after every individual sheep; and a good schoolmaster after every individual scholar; and a good physician after every particular patient; and a good commander after every individual soldier? Why then should the shepherds, teachers, physicians, and guides of the churches of Christ, not take heed to every individual member of their charge? Christ himself, the great and good Shepherd, who has the whole flock to look after, yet takes care
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Chapter 2 – Oversight of the Flock

of every individual. He is like the one whom he describes in the parable, who left “the ninety and nine sheep in the wilderness, to seek after one that was lost.”4 The prophets were often sent to single men. Ezekiel was made a watchman over individuals, and was commanded to say to the wicked, “You will surely die.”5 Paul taught his hearers not only “publicly but from house to house.”6 And in another place he tells us that he “warned every man, and taught every man, in all wisdom, that he might present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”7 Many other passages of Scripture make it evident that it is our duty to take heed to every individual of our flock; and many passages in the ancient Councils plainly show that this was the practice in primitive times. But I will only quote one from Ignatius: “Let assemblies,” he says, “be gathered often; inquire after all by name: do not ignore servant-men or maids.”


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## Jake (Jan 23, 2022)

I think Baxter's words on pastoral care are great and should be more heeded in the church today. The same can be neglected even in the smallest flock.

I have heard of larger churches that have made it work relatively well. I think about what I've heard of churches in the low thousands in members, like First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, MS (PCA) and First Presbyterian Church of Columbia, SC (ARP). I don't think these are ideal, but I do think they have multiple teaching and ruling elders and work hard to provide pastoral care for their members. 

I do think there are practical matters, and even at 1,000 members I think you are straining at having a pastor (or even pastors) know the flock well to do their duties of shepherding. I also think at larger sizes you tend to have other constraints which get in the way, such as being unable to fit in one space to gather for worship, which to me starts to strain at the definition of having a singular congregation. Again, this is not an absolute, but should be considered.

I think the Biblical answer is that such large congregations, especially by the time we are discussing 20,000 members is that that's more the place of presbyteries. If you have such large numbers of ministers and ruling elders in one congregation and multiple services, you're really functioning more as several smaller churches that are in one sense a larger church. I would say that's what we see with the early church of Jerusalem, which was one church, but met in various places and had several pastors. I think with that separation it becomes much easier for shepherds (pastors) to shepherd and congregants to have fellowship.

The problem you describe is not unique to Brazil. We have many large churches of the size you describe and more. The largest church in the PCA is over 10,000 members.

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## Edward (Jan 23, 2022)

It takes intentional and purposeful work to shepherd a large church, and sometimes the infrastructure can't keep up with the growth. We currently have 8 pastors (we've had as many as 13) and they certainly couldn't get the job done alone. The elders have to be involved, and the deacons must be mobilized as well. Geographical groupings can be more or less effective and the controlling factor on that appears to be density. Sunday school classes can also help break down the body into manageble chunks. Folks will still fall thorugh the cracks, but that can happen in all but the smallest churches. The church leadership should be continually examining what they are doing right and what they can do better.

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