# Resources on the Albigensians?



## RamistThomist (Apr 30, 2021)

I've been seeing some people online point to the Albigensians as proto-Protestants, yet they haven't cited reputable sources. I don't want to condemn them unnecessarily (not that my condemnation really means anything), yet I am also suspicious of Trail-of-Blood type theories. What are some good, scholarly resources on them?


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## ZackF (Apr 30, 2021)

I’m curious too. This was something that Spurgeon had more than a fleeting interest in if I remember correctly. I think the Albigensians have clumsily been employed as an apologetics tool against Rome. That seemed to be more of an “enemy of my enemy” thing over anything verifiable.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 30, 2021)

Gentlemen,

Here are some sources (no ISBNs on the volumes) :

_*Church History from the Birth of Christ to the 18th Century*_, 2 Vols., by William Jones (London, 1826; reprinted 1983 in USA by Church History Research & Archives; reprinted by Triangle Press, Conrad MT) (deals extensively with the Albigenses and Waldenses / Vaudois in both volumes)
_*The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont and of the Albigenses*_, by Peter Allix (Oxford, at the Clarendon Press; reprinted 1989 in USA by Church History Research & Archives, Gallatin, TN, Publishers of Ecclesiastical Histories.)
_*The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses*_, by George Stanley Faber (Pub. by R.B. Seeley and W. Burnside, London; reprinted 1990 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)
_*The History of the Waldenses*_, 4th Ed., by J.A. Wylie, LL.D (Cassell & Co., London, Paris & New York; reprinted 1985 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 30, 2021)

I think their orthodox pedigrees are well documented and attested; it was their enemies, the Church of Rome, who wrote much about them, slandering them. No Cult, these folks, particularly the Waldenses.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Apr 30, 2021)

I was pretty sure that the Cathars / Albigensians were a type of Gnostic heretic sect that believed in weird stuff.

I think the believed in the "Bad Old God" of the Old Testament and the "Good God" of the New Testament.

I believe they denied the physical resurrection of Christ.

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## Gwallard (Apr 30, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Here are some sources (no ISBNs on the volumes) :
> 
> ...


Can't help much, but at least I can do this:


*History of the Christian Church: From the Birth of Christ to the 18th Century (2-Volume Set) (Church History)*

ISBN-10 : 1583391665

ISBN-13 : 978-1583391662

*Download here free (I think)*

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_History_of_the_Christian_Church_from.html?id=Syw_AAAAYAAJ

*PDF:*

http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...-of-the-Christian-Church-by-William-Jones.pdf


*Kindle edition for $2.99 here:*

https://www.amazon.com/HISTORY-CHRISTIAN-CHURCH-Christ-Century-ebook/dp/B00BCQ2HSY



*The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont and of the Albigenses*

*No ISBN, as far as I can see. But the OCLC number is* 904349940 (see https://www.worldcat.org/title/eccl...bigenses/oclc/904349940&referer=brief_results)

*The chapter especially on the Albigenses can be found here: http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/allix/albigenses.html

The whole book can be found here:

https://archive.org/details/someremarksupone00alliuoft*

*The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses*

*1838 edition

PDF:

http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-8/LIBRARY/FAB_HAVA.PDF

Or here:

https://archive.org/details/FaberGe...ncientVallensesAndAlbigenses/page/n5/mode/2up*

1990 edition

ISBN-10 : 0685453480

ISBN-13 : 978-0685453483

2015 edition

ISBN 10: 1331054184

ISBN 13: 9781331054184

*The History of the Waldenses*

*PDF of 1860 edition (I think): https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_history_of_the_waldenses.pdf

4th edition is from the 1920’s, but here is a newer, cheaper 2016 reprint.*

ISBN-10 : 1519095171

ISBN-13 : 978-1519095176

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## RamistThomist (Apr 30, 2021)

Are the Waldenses being lumped in with the Cathars? That's what it looks like. I'm willing to grant that the Waldenses might have been good guys, but the Cathars' dualism seems fairly well established.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 30, 2021)

Grant, in providing digital sources (_and_ ISBNs) for these works you have done a great service to researchers into the reality of the Waldenses / Vaudois and the Albigenses, and those who slander them — namely Rome, in its seeking to justify its horrendous persecution of the dissenters to Romish doctrine and practice! Thank you! (Even though I have the hard copies, I downloaded the digital versions, 'cause one never knows when one will have to travel light!)


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## arapahoepark (Apr 30, 2021)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Are the Waldenses being lumped in with the Cathars? That's what it looks like. I'm willing to grant that the Waldenses might have been good guys, but the Cathars' dualism seems fairly well established.


I've heard both sides. Much ignorance in this area but, I think they may have taken their inspiration from them. So they make for interesting role models.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (May 1, 2021)

The Albigensians are Cathars. One and the same.

I don’t believe the Waldenses deserve to be lumped in there.

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## B.L. (May 1, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> _*The History of the Waldenses*_, 4th Ed., by J.A. Wylie, LL.D (Cassell & Co., London, Paris & New York; reprinted 1985 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)



I read this one last year and thoroughly enjoyed it.


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## Jerusalem Blade (May 1, 2021)

Hello Sean,

On what basis do you assert "The Albigensians are Cathars" (Cathari) ?

I think Peter Allix exonerates them of this Romish calumny well in his Chapters 13, 14, and on, in his _Remarks Upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses_.


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## RamistThomist (May 1, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Sean,
> 
> On what basis do you assert "The Albigensians are Cathars" (Cathari) ?
> 
> I think Peter Allix exonerates them of this Romish calumny well in his Chapters 13, 14, and on, in his _Remarks Upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses_.



Reading through it he seems just to assert that the Albigensians are the proto-Reformers without really giving thorough historical analysis for it. Furthermore, I am not so sure you can draw a straight line from Irenaeus's teachings in the 2nd century to the Albigensians 1000 years later. And then, almost without warning, he brings the Waldensians into it. Nobody is questioning the Waldensians here, so I am not sure what that serves.


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## Charles Johnson (May 1, 2021)

I checked Hottinger and he also asserts that the Albigenses were Waldenses. That does seem to be the simplest possible explanation, and it would explain why no distinctly "albigensian" records survive. But I'd hardly consider myself an expert on the matter.


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## Jerusalem Blade (May 2, 2021)

Both Faber in his work, and Jones in his, exonerate the "Cathari"-labeled Albigenses from accusations against them — accusations made by their persecutors and murderers, Rome, to justify themselves.

Edit: I would add to this that J.A. Wylie, in his book (noted above), concurs as well — that the Albigenses were a sister church to the Waldenses, only separated geographically.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (May 3, 2021)

Seems weird to me that there's such a huge split in opinion between "Albigensians were neo-Gnostic Cathar / Bogomil heretics" on one side and "Rome was lying, the Albigensians were good proto-Protestants" on the other side.

Until I came to saving faith and understood orthodox Triune Christianity, the only people I knew who stuck up for the Albigensians were "Trail of Blood" type Restorationists (for example Herbert W. Armstrong / WWCG) who pointed to _any_ group outside of the Roman papacy as evidence that the "true Church" was alive and (relatively) well through history.

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## RamistThomist (May 3, 2021)

SeanPatrickCornell said:


> Seems weird to me that there's such a huge split in opinion between "Albigensians were neo-Gnostic Cathar / Bogomil heretics" on one side and "Rome was lying, the Albigensians were good proto-Protestants" on the other side.
> 
> Until I came to saving faith and understood orthodox Triune Christianity, the only people I knew who stuck up for the Albigensians were "Trail of Blood" type Restorationists (for example Herbert W. Armstrong / WWCG) who pointed to _any_ group outside of the Roman papacy as evidence that the "true Church" was alive and (relatively) well through history.



That's sort of my take. I can grant that there isn't evidence that the Albigensians were sexually depraved dualists, but by the same token I don't see any reliable evidence that they were true Protestants.

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## Jerusalem Blade (May 3, 2021)

Hello Sean,

You said there's a "huge split in opinion" — but the side accusing the Albigensians, who are they, and where is their documentation? Before I looked into the matter, I would have agreed with you, for I heard bad comments regarding them also — though it now appears the _source_ is _only _Rome.

Jacob,

Are not the historians above reliable? Regarding Jones it is held against him by some that he is a Baptist, and interprets things from that view, though I've not heard critiques of him other than that. The others, I've not heard any reproach of them except from Rome, and Rome defenders.


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## RamistThomist (May 3, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Sean,
> 
> You said there's a "huge split in opinion" — but the side accusing the Albigensians, who are they, and where is their documentation? Before I looked into the matter, I would have agreed with you, for I heard bad comments regarding them also — though it now appears the _source_ is _only _Rome.
> 
> ...



The Jones works doesn't deal much with primary documentation of the Albigensians. It trades on the fact that they were hated by Rome and then throws in phrases like "Thw word of God grew mightily." It seems like circular reasoning to me.


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## Jerusalem Blade (May 5, 2021)

And the testimonies of Allix, Faber, and Wylie? Any sources for your opinions besides Rome? These are not "Trail-of-Blood type theorists."


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## RamistThomist (May 5, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> And the testimonies of Allix, Faber, and Wylie? Any sources for your opinions besides Rome? These are not "Trail-of-Blood type theorists."



That's part of the problem: paucity of primary sources. I grant that Rome did bad things in her history, but to dismiss her history because she is Rome is the genetic fallacy. The authors you cite don't provide documentation (that I can recall) showing what the average Albigensian assumed himself to believe.

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## Jerusalem Blade (May 5, 2021)

Jacob, you can read the PDFs Grant provided in post #6, which are searchable, and give documentation. Rome, the habitation of devils, lies, _especially_ in such matters as justifying her *murdering* of those who righteously dissent with her abominations.

This thread is valuable precisely because of this documentation.


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## RamistThomist (May 5, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Jacob, you can read the PDFs Grant provided in post #6, which are searchable, and give documentation. Rome, the habitation of devils, lies, _especially_ in such matters as justifying her *murdering* of those who righteously dissent with her abominations.
> 
> This thread is valuable precisely because of this documentation.



I did. It was light on primary documentation per the Albigensians. Your second sentence is a genetic fallacy.


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## Jerusalem Blade (May 6, 2021)

A saying I have in my files, re your “genetic fallacy”: *“an old prosecutorial rule—one lie, all lies” *— (from a former Marine Corps intelligence officer). If Rome is your sole source of information, I rest my case.


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## RamistThomist (May 6, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> A saying I have in my files, re your “genetic fallacy”: *“an old prosecutorial rule—one lie, all lies” *— (from a former Marine Corps intelligence officer). If Rome is your sole source of information, I rest my case.



Still a logical fallacy

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## Jerusalem Blade (May 7, 2021)

When the “genetic fallacy” is used to overrule valid common sense judgment — that is, if a claim is based *simply* or *solely* on its origin, rather than looking at the actual merits of the claim, then the so-called “genetic fallacy” is seen to violate its own terms.


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## RamistThomist (May 7, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> When the “genetic fallacy” is used to overrule valid common sense judgment — that is, if a claim is based *simply* or *solely* on its origin, rather than looking at the actual merits of the claim, then the so-called “genetic fallacy” is seen to violate its own terms.



No it isn't. It is quite simple. You said Rome is bad when I asked for primary sources from the Albigensians themselves. All of the sources linked are secondary or tertiary sources.

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## Jerusalem Blade (May 8, 2021)

I hope to wind down my own part in this discussion which, initially, was simply to provide some historical resources regarding the Waldenses (or Vaudois) and the Albigenses being early proto-Protestant churches before the Reformation dissenting from Rome and living in the mountains of Europe. It has turned out that such sources do not meet with the approval of some here, but the result has been that the murderous Papal harlot's word concerning these slaughtered-by-Rome innocent believers is being taken as truth, a real travesty of justice, _and_ of historical fact. 

The PB is here, in part, for the edification of believers in various aspects of the Christian faith, and so I offer further information for the benefit of those who like to do research into these things. The history of the Christian church up through the centuries is a matter of vital importance to us, for it is not only our family, but our Lord Jesus' kingdom in its early stages.

The following are a few brief excerpts from William Cunningham's _Historical Theology_, Vol 1; Chapter 16, “Witnesses for the Truth During the Middle Ages”; _Sect. _II_—Waldenses and Albigenses_. I think Cunningham's reputation and work are sufficiently respected. In fact, while he reviews George Faber's, _The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses_, favorably, he sharply reproves him for his stance of seeking to use his _History_ to prove that there was always a visible organized true church throughout the Dark or Middle Ages of Roman ecclesiastical dominance, which he, Cunningham, disagrees with, i.e., the continuing true church was not always "organized and visible". For those who don't have Cunningham's work in hardcopy I've given a couple of links from Monergism to access his 2-volume book online.
_______

*Historical Theology, William Cunningham Vol 1; Chapter 16, “Witnesses for the Truth During the Middle Ages”; Sect. II—Waldenses and Albigenses. * Excerpts:

There are very considerable difficulties in ascertaining accurately the doctrinal views of some of these alleged witnesses for the truth during the middle ages, as in most cases we have scarcely any means of knowing what they believed and taught, except from Popish writers, their enemies and persecutors; and we may be pretty confident that the men who murdered them would not scruple to calumniate them. Still there is enough to satisfy us that those individuals and bodies of men whom we have mentioned were not only zealous opponents of the Papacy, were not only innocent of the charges which Popish writers have adduced against them, but that they held, in the main, the great principles of scriptural Protestant truth, and manifested by their lives and by their deaths, — inflicted by the Church of Rome, and endured by them just because of their faithful adherence to these principles, — that they feared God, that they loved the Lord Jesus Christ, and that they enjoyed the guidance and support of the Holy Spirit. . .

Protestant writers have certainly succeeded in vindicating the Albigenses and the Waldenses of the eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, and following centuries from the calumnies which Popish writers have adduced against them, and have shown that their doctrines, from the twelfth century downwards, were substantially those now held by the Protestant churches. They have also shown that these bodies existed at an earlier period than that to which Papists commonly ascribe their origin, and they have even made it highly probable that the Waldenses subsisted from the time of Claude, Bishop of Turin, in the ninth century. . .

The whole history of the Albigenses, and especially of the way in which they were calumniated and persecuted by the Church of Rome, irresistibly reminds us of the calumnies and persecutions directed against the primitive Christians in the second and third centuries; and the whole character and conduct of these men, as it appears incidentally and unintentionally even in the narratives of their persecutors, is fitted to impress the mind with a strong conviction, that these victims of the cruelty of Papal Rome were men of the same character and principles as the earlier victims of Pagan Rome. . .

As to [Papal writer] Bossuet's fourth position, that the Waldenses did not differ materially in doctrine from the Roman Church, but separated and remained apart from her, rather on grounds of discipline than doctrine, —and therefore cannot be appealed to by Protestants, as preserving, for any portion of time, the succession of apostolic, anti-Popish doctrine, — we have no doubt that it has been conclusively disproved; and that satisfactory evidence has been adduced that, from the Reformation back to the eleventh century, and, in all probability, without any interruption to the time of Claude of Turin in the ninth, they were decidedly opposed, upon scriptural grounds, to the leading features in the system of Popish doctrine, and held in substance the great leading doctrines of Protestantism. This, we think, has been established by Basnage and by Faber, in answer to Bossuet; and it is a fact full of interest and value, and one which must ever invest the history of the Waldenses with an importance which attaches to comparatively few departments in the. history of the church. . .

His church, though not always appearing in a visible organized form, has never been destroyed from the earth. He has always had a seed to serve Him, —placed, it may be, in great variety of outward circumstances, living some of them within the pale of very corrupt churches, but still holding His truth, and walking in His ways. And the history of the Albigenses and Waldenses, which Faber has done a great deal to illustrate, affords most important and valuable matter for developing the fulfilment of Christ’s promises, and assisting us in forming a just appreciation of the true character and tendencies of the great adversary of Christ and His cause — the apostate Church of Rome. 






Historical Theology | Monergism


by William Cunninghamin ePub, .mobi & .pdf formatsThe study of the history of theology throws light on both truth and error. It helps us to recognise old



www.monergism.com







https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/cunningham/Historical%20Theology%20-%20William%20Cunningham.pdf


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Still there is enough to satisfy us that those individuals and bodies of men whom we have mentioned were not only zealous opponents of the Papacy, were not only innocent of the charges which Popish writers have adduced against them, but that they held, in the main, the great principles of scriptural Protestant truth,



Cunningham did not prove his case. He noted at first the difficulties in establishing the Albigensians' views. He then moves from that point to the conclusion, not supported by evidence, that they didn't differ materially from the Protestants. The evidence does not say that.

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## Jerusalem Blade (May 16, 2021)

Jacob, it’s kind of odd to me, this exchange we’ve been having. And I don’t quite comprehend the stand you are taking with the facile responses being giving me as regards the testimony of Peter Allix and George Faber (both Anglicans, Allix of the French Huguenot community), and William Cunningham (a Scottish theologian and co-founder of the Free Church of Scotland) over against the Roman Catholic accounts of the Albigensians.

Seeing that what the Albigensians believed and practiced has been expunged by their murderers as thoroughly as their lives were, it is little wonder there is no evidence of it, save what Rome gave to justify the blood and horror (the web will testify of their effectiveness!). You might as well tell African Americans to believe the KKK’s accounts of the characters of those they tortured and hung, and Jews to believe the Nazi’s accounts of those they gassed and cremated, as to tell Protestants to believe the likes of Pope Innocent III and his henchmen as regards the Albigenses and the Waldenses!

For you to tell me with a straight face my discounting Rome’s testimony over the painstaking investigations of godly men is “a genetic fallacy”, appears to me to be giving credence to murderers and thieves (landgrabbers) easily as wicked and depraved as the Klan and Hitler’s men. One must consider the actual merits of a claim, not _merely_ the possible flawedness of its origin. It is not a logic honored in Heaven.

Were you to simply say, We cannot know _with certainty_ what the Albigenses believed, given the lack of documentary evidence, I would agree; although, for my part, I would strongly lean to accepting the testimony of a man such as Cunningham, of whom it was said in the 1911 _Encyclopædia Britannica_, “rigidly impartial qualifying him to be an interesting delineator of the more stirring periods of church history”. As I noted above, he reproved Faber’s attempt to prove an apostolic succession by means of the Waldenses and Albigenses throughout the NT church age (as per an Anglican view, *not* a “trail of blood” baptistic view), yet concurred in his overall investigatory conclusions as to their character and doctrines. To restate what I said, “We cannot know *with certainty* what the Albigenses believed”, so I readily will concede that to you.


From a slightly different angle, re the Waldenses: _History of the Reformation in the Sixteenth Century_, p. 30, by J.H. Merle D’Aubigné,

“From their mountain-heights the Waldenses protested during a long series of ages against the superstitions of Rome.* ‘They contend for the lively hope which they have in God through Christ—for the regeneration and interior revival by faith, hope, and charity—for the merits of Jesus Christ, and the all-sufficiency of his grace and righteousness.’**​​[* Nobla Leygon (_The Books of the Vaudois_). ** Treatise on Antichrist, a work contemporary with the Nobla Leygon.]​​“Yet this primal truth of the justification of sinners,—this main doctrine, that should have risen from the midst of all the rest like Mont Blanc from the bosom of the Alps—was not sufficiently prominent in their system. Its summit was not yet raised high enough.”​
So Cunningham puts in perspective the lacks in the Waldenses’ theology. It remained for Luther and the Reformers to supply this lack.

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## RamistThomist (May 16, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Jacob, it’s kind of odd to me, this exchange we’ve been having. And I don’t quite comprehend the stand you are taking with the facile responses being giving me as regards the testimony of Peter Allix and George Faber (both Anglicans, Allix of the French Huguenot community), and William Cunningham (a Scottish theologian and co-founder of the Free Church of Scotland) over against the Roman Catholic accounts of the Albigensians.
> 
> Seeing that what the Albigensians believed and practiced has been expunged by their murderers as thoroughly as their lives were, it is little wonder there is no evidence of it, save what Rome gave to justify the blood and horror (the web will testify of their effectiveness!). You might as well tell African Americans to believe the KKK’s accounts of the characters of those they tortured and hung, and Jews to believe the Nazi’s accounts of those they gassed and cremated, as to tell Protestants to believe the likes of Pope Innocent III and his henchmen as regards the Albigenses and the Waldenses!
> 
> ...



As I've said numerous times in this thread, my discussion is not about the Waldenses. You keep bringing them up for some reason.

My point is pretty simple: you have no primary evidence to support your position. Cunningham was a great man, but he provides no primary evidence, either.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 16, 2021)

Durham has a digression on the Waldenses in his lectures on Revelation (volume 2, p. 402-411; just published and available at RHB). He links the Waldenses and Albigenses, the later a branch of the first, citing the RC historian Thauni who identifies the Albigenses as the same as the Cathari. Thauni himself says many beliefs were unjustly attributed to the Waldenses.


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## RamistThomist (May 16, 2021)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Durham has a digression on the Waldenses in his lectures on Revelation (volume 2, p. 402-411; just published and available at RHB). He links the Waldenses and Albigenses, the later a branch of the first, citing the RC historian Thauni who identifies the Albigenses as the same as the Cathari. Thauni himself says many beliefs were unjustly attributed to the Waldenses.



It is interesting he links them to the Cathari. I hold out the logical possibility that they might have been good guys. I just haven't seen any primary evidence to that effect. I guess I am agnostic on the question.

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