# how do I deal with standing sulfuric acid in the basement?



## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Our landlord came over yesterday --we'd asked what we could do about the inefficient drainage from condensation from the a/c in the basement. There is a puddle, a few feet in radius, of about an inch of standing water in there. He got something called 'proplus' at a hardware store that contains sulfuric acid; and poured it over the drain area. It made horrible noises and ate away everything it has come into contact with (including my pants: I had grabbed the bottle to read the label and wiped my hands on my slacks) but didn't do anything towards unclogging the drain. So now we have a puddle a few feet in radius of about an inch of sulfuric acid down there. You can smell it (though I have had windows open down there and throughout the house) on the first floor. I have no idea how to clean this up, or if I should insist that he do so --poor man, he has his own health problems. I'm extremely sensitive to chemicals and this stuff is supposed to be highly toxic anyway. I read the label and found out that it's not supposed to be poured into standing water! The standing water is supposed to be removed, and it's supposed to be used in a very controlled and contained way, and neutralized afterwards with amazing care. What should I do? I'm supposed to call him and report this morning. He wanted to come back and pour yet more in if it hasn't worked.


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

Try to neutralize it with baking soda before you do anything with it. I don't know how much, but you might need a pretty good quantity to completely neutralize it, maybe a large box or two. There may be an exothermic reaction (like baking soda and vinegar) so try to slowly add the BS and stand clear of any foaming and such. After it has stopped any reaction, I'd suggest using a wet-vac to carefully vac it up, then take the vac outside and hose it out.

Using too much baking soda won't hurt anything, so use as much as you need to feel confident that the acid is neutralized.

You should have someone else do it if you're sensitive to chemicals, Heidi, the reaction is likely to give off some gasses that might be irritants.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 5, 2008)




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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks much Brad. I read something and found out that it can also be neutralized with 'caustic soda' more safely (without fumes) --do you know anything about 'caustic soda'? 

Also, after we've neutralized it --would it be safe to mop it up with a bunch of old rags and then wash those in normal detergent, as we don't have a wet vac? 

I don't suppose you'd have any tips for how to clear out that basement drainage once we get the standing water and the sulfuric acid out?


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

Caustic soda is sodium hydroxide, or lye, and is very dangerous itself. It will dissolve skin just as quickly as sulfuric acid. It is alkaline, the opposite on the pH scale from an acid, but is just as aggressive. I'd be leery of using that. I've used both acids and bases in stripping off old stains and paints, and neutralized one with the other, but only with very controlled conditions and lots of protective gear. Baking soda is essentially pH neutral, and enough of it will neutralize both acids and bases. That's what I'd use personally, but perhaps someone out here has a better idea about the use of lye.

Also, I'd be surprised that there'd be no off-gassing with lye. It produces some of the most spectacular exothermic reactions I've ever seen.


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## Seb (Aug 5, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> Thanks much Brad. I read something and found out that it can also be neutralized with 'caustic soda' more safely (without fumes) --do you know anything about 'caustic soda'?
> 
> Also, after we've neutralized it --would it be safe to mop it up with a bunch of old rags and then wash those in normal detergent, as we don't have a wet vac?
> 
> I don't suppose you'd have any tips for how to clear out that basement drainage once we get the standing water and the sulfuric acid out?



Baking soda works well, as long as you don't have a too much acid to clean up. Too much acid and the baking soda will foam A LOT and release a lot of CO2.

For your situation, I'd use the caustic soda. Just mix it with some water first and add it S L O W L Y, working it in with a sacrificial broom or something like that. Be careful though, it can cause a lot of heat if you add too much too quickly.

To clear the drain out, you need to get somebody to snake it out. A plumber if you can afford one, if not, then you, or your landlord, can rent one from a rental store like Taylor rental.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

That's what I wanted to know --thanks very much. I won't experiment with something tricky and just as dangerous as what's already down there. We have to go out to do the laundry tonight so we can dump a bunch of baking soda down before we leave and leave everything open, and avoid most of the fumes.

Do you think it's okay to use rags to clean it up afterwards then, or no?


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

I'd recommend a wet-vac and rubber gloves. Don't want to touch it at all if you don't have to. Then I'd pour water over the area and mop that up. No soap.... don't want to add to the chemical mix, just water to dilute what's left well and mop it up.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Well thanks Seb, I was convinced by Brad's post, and now am swayed the other way . This is just like a paedobaptism discussion. I can see both sides. And I love the idea of a sacrificial broom.

I think actually I'll let Ruben read this and decide which way to go.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Okay; thanks again. This is most helpful. I'm not going to have the landlord deal with it b/c I want to make sure it all gets out and doesn't cause any further problems.

Rubber gloves and raincoats and sacrificial brooms. We'll look very cute. Like Larry and Curly.


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## Seb (Aug 5, 2008)

I like the wet-vac, but the problem with using it is - If you don't completely neutralize the acid you may ruin the vac, and there's always the airborne fumes aspect of it. I'd use old rags, triple bag them afterwards, and throw them away. Don't try to wash them and save them. That acid can cause a lot of damage.

And yes ma-am! I'd let Reuben take care this one, that's one of the reasons you married him right?


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Fortunately I have a lot of sacrificial plastic bags.

 I'm forwarding all of this 'Larry'. thanks so much for your help, Brad and Seb.


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

You can get a pH test kit or litmus paper wherever you are going to find lye, so maybe you could test the stuff afterwards to see if it's neutral. Where can you buy lye anymore, anyway, Seb?


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

I do actually have some ph strips already -- we can use them if we go the baking soda route too, I assume --but since it's not quite so tricky with the soda we wouldn't have to get it 'just right'?


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## Herald (Aug 5, 2008)

This is the business I am in. Apart from the commercial brand of absorbant that I sell, baking soda is the way to go. Stay away from sodium hydroxide. It's dangerous in it's ownright. Heidi, you may need a lot of baking soda. Err on the side of caution. Wear protective googles, long sleeves and pants when cleaning the spill. Once neutralized you can use a wet dry vac. Chances are that if the sulfuric acid was mixed with water it may have exhausted it's potential for harm but it's prudent to take precautions. 

Your landlord erred by using sulfuric acid in a condensate line. He should have used bleach or liquid sodium hydroxide which loses it's exothermic properties after a few minutes.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 5, 2008)

Per others' advice about how to actually unclog that drain, I agree that a drain snake is the way to go. Try calling to some Home Depots in the area to see if they will rent you a motorized drain snake. It's not uncommon, in old houses, for roots and other gunk to grow inside of drains and the snake will move forward and clear it out really far.

Of course, your best bet is to find a friend that knows how to use one because it has to be backed out as well.

When we lived in Quantico in 1997 we had to have our drain snaked (we lived in 50's era military housing). Tons of roots came out.


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## Seb (Aug 5, 2008)

Brad said:


> You can get a pH test kit or litmus paper wherever you are going to find lye, so maybe you could test the stuff afterwards to see if it's neutral. Where can you buy lye anymore, anyway, Seb?



uhhhh... You can't get it from Home Depot or Lowes? 



> Lowe's hardware stores sell Roebic Crystal Drain Opener. One of their long-time employees recently wrote me assuring readers "...that this product is 100% lye and we have recently added that information to our label. It is available in a 2 lb. container and can be found at all Lowes stores."



or maybe from a Lutefisk cooking supply store?  I didn't realize it was hard to find nowadays, but I haven't bought or looked for any in a long time.


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

> Wear protective googles


Where do I get these? They sound cool!


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> This is the business I am in. Apart from the commercial brand of absorbant that I sell, baking soda is the way to go. Stay away from sodium hydroxide. It's dangerous in it's ownright. Heidi, you may need a lot of baking soda. Err on the side of caution. Wear protective googles, long sleeves and pants when cleaning the spill. Once neutralized you can use a wet dry vac. Chances are that if the sulfuric acid was mixed with water it may have exhausted it's potential for harm but it's prudent to take precautions.
> 
> Your landlord erred by using sulfuric acid in a condensate line. He should have used bleach or liquid sodium hydroxide which loses it's exothermic properties after a few minutes.


Actually, as a former service plumber (you've heard of Warner's Plumbing I'm sure), using any kind of chemical drain opener was always cause for greatly increasing charges. The stuff barely works if at all, and usually is used by the homeowner before breaking down and calling the plumber, who then had to deal with chem burns while trying to snake the drain.


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## Seb (Aug 5, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> This is the business I am in. Apart from the commercial brand of absorbant that I sell, baking soda is the way to go. Stay away from sodium hydroxide. *It's dangerous in it's ownright.* Heidi, you may need a lot of baking soda. *Err on the side of caution.* Wear protective googles, long sleeves and pants when cleaning the spill. Once neutralized you can use a wet dry vac. Chances are that if the sulfuric acid was mixed with water it may have exhausted it's potential for harm but it's prudent to take precautions.
> 
> Your landlord erred by using sulfuric acid in a condensate line. He should have used bleach or liquid sodium hydroxide which loses it's exothermic properties after a few minutes.



 Sounds like Bill's the man. 

Sorry Heidi, I focused too much on answering what *I would do*, instead of giving the sound advice of Brad and Bill as to what *you should do*. 

Sorry Brad, sorry Bill.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks Mr. Brown, and everyone. Ruben says we will probably use the baking soda then; but after it's neutralized, go ahead and use the rag and bag technique to clean it up, unless that's unsafe with the baking soda? I'll try to come up with protective gear. Ruben hates it when I'm too happy and I can already tell that wearing protective gear and playing with sacrificial brooms is going to make me too happy. He probably won't allow me to play with the sacrificial broom. I have already selected it from among the number of our two brooms. It is the one I already ruined last week. This will be the best way for it to go.

And then we'll look into the drain snake.



> Your landlord erred by using sulfuric acid in a condensate line. He should have used bleach or liquid sodium hydroxide which loses it's exothermic properties after a few minutes.



I kind of thought he did. But I don't have the courage to say, 'You err, landlord.' I don't understand all of this but I do understand that one doesn't dump toxic fuming stuff into a standing pool.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 5, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> I kind of thought he did. But I don't have the courage to say, 'You err, landlord.' I don't understand all of this but I do understand that one doesn't dump toxic fuming stuff into a standing pool.



If you don't feel comfortable saying 'You err, landlord', you could politely state that you think that pouring sulfuric acid into a standing pool is moronic.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

I am *always* polite. My run ins with customer service persons, and the sheer driving force of my politeness to them in spite of all their moronic actions, are legendary. Like the time I was polite to the mailman who, when I confronted him politely about how he wasn't delivering our mail to our address, suggested we move to wherever he was delivering it. I smiled and said 'thank you'.


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## AmyB (Aug 5, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> I am *always* polite. My run ins with customer service persons, and the sheer driving force of my politeness to them in spite of all their moronic actions, are legendary. Like the time I was polite to the mailman who, when I confronted him politely about how he wasn't delivering our mail to our address, suggested we move to wherever he was delivering it. I smiled and said 'thank you'.



Oh!!! Now that is funny!!!


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## Herald (Aug 5, 2008)

Brad said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > This is the business I am in. Apart from the commercial brand of absorbant that I sell, baking soda is the way to go. Stay away from sodium hydroxide. It's dangerous in it's ownright. Heidi, you may need a lot of baking soda. Err on the side of caution. Wear protective googles, long sleeves and pants when cleaning the spill. Once neutralized you can use a wet dry vac. Chances are that if the sulfuric acid was mixed with water it may have exhausted it's potential for harm but it's prudent to take precautions.
> ...



Not to sidetrack the thread, but I sell a ton of sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide to institutional customers for drain purposes. Sulfuric acid eats through chicken fat like a hot knife through butter. It also dissolves plastics. The Maryland House of Corrections loves it. Sodium Hydroxide in liquid form is fantastic for condensate lines and drinking fountains. The stuff does work.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 5, 2008)

> The Maryland House of Corrections loves it.



A radical new kind of therapy?


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## Herald (Aug 5, 2008)

> I kind of thought he did. But I don't have the courage to say, 'You err, landlord.' I don't understand all of this but I do understand that one doesn't dump toxic fuming stuff into a standing pool.


I witnessed a customer pour a competitors sulfuric acid product into backed up sink. As soon as it hit the water it resulted in a tremendous back splash that burned the employee on his hands and face. I had no idea what he was pouring until it was too late. Sulfuric acid can erupt violently when added to water. Since your situation is already a mixture there isn't a fear of reaction. 

Snaking a drain helps with the immediate back up problem but it actually conditions the drain for further back ups. Snakes punch a hole in the middle of the clog but do nothing to remove the the build up on the side of the hole. Eventually the clog material on the inside of the pipe will attract more grease, hair, lint etc. and lead to another clog. A roto type snake is better because it uses agitation to remove most of the clog. 

For those of you who have a septic system your best friend is a vegetative spore-dormant bacteria. Add this once a month to your septic system and it will produce bacteria and enzymes to speed up the decomposition of solid waste. I sell a lot of this type of bacteria to waste water plants and large kitchens. It works great in septic systems.


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## turmeric (Aug 5, 2008)

Lye is hard to get now because people were using it to make meth! True story!


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## py3ak (Aug 5, 2008)

Would meth neutralize the sulfuric acid?


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## Seb (Aug 5, 2008)

turmeric said:


> Lye is hard to get now because people were using it to make meth! True story!



I wondered if that was why it's hard to get now. 

I work for a company with a drafting department, we make a lot of blueprints. We recently discovered it is becoming VERY HARD to get the blueprint ammonia we use, because it's a part of creating meth.


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Would meth neutralize the sulfuric acid?


Don't know, but it could make it pretty jittery.


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## turmeric (Aug 5, 2008)

Brad said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > Would meth neutralize the sulfuric acid?
> ...


 
And it would stink! I mean STINK!!!!


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## py3ak (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, I have 6 pounds of baking soda down there now, so we'll see what happens. Nothing spectacular appeared right away.


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## VictorBravo (Aug 5, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Well, I have 6 pounds of baking soda down there now, so we'll see what happens. Nothing spectacular appeared right away.



As my old haz-mat professor used to say: "The solution to pollution is dilution. Burning acid is rougher--it needs a buffer." 

If the puddle has dried some, you might need at add a bit of water so that the soda dissolves. Just don't add too much and make the mess worse than it already is.

BTW, sulphuric acid is rough on concrete floors, but at least the calcium hydroxide in the concrete will also neutralize it.


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## Mushroom (Aug 5, 2008)

I concur with Vic. I really like that little axiom, I'll have to file it away for future use.

So Ruben, do we get pics of you all dressed out in haz-mat gear or what? That would definitely make a good avatar.


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## py3ak (Aug 5, 2008)

It was just kung fu shoes and rubber gloves. Vic, I don't think the water down there obeys the immutable laws of physics --it never seems to evaporate at all. The baking soda is spread around and the windows are open. Now if we could only get that drain to work....


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## a mere housewife (Aug 7, 2008)

(although, the kung fu shoes were just to dump baking soda on. We're still trying to get the standing water out. The good news is that the fumes seem to have mercilessly destroyed the spiders in the basement. The bad news is that I can still smell chemicals when I walk in the house and am wondering if some symptoms are related to the same processes that shriveled them up and made them die.)


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