# Caner Debate/Email Meltdown



## tellville (May 15, 2006)

Just thought I would post the Caner meltdown documented here at James White's blog.

Link to emails: http://www.aomin.org/Caner2.html 

aomin.org (05/15/2006)
Let the People of God Judge
Let me summarize quickly. I will expand upon this on The Dividing Line Tuesday morning when I am joined by Dr. Tom Ascol. 
1) I have posted the entirety of the correspondence between myself, Tom Ascol, Ergun Caner, and Emir Caner, that has been written since March on the topic of our debate October 16th. I believe the people of God need to be able to see who has been trying tirelessly to arrange a meaningful debate and who has been doing everything they can to avoid that very thing. Here is the file. It isn't pretty, as I simply do not have the time (let alone the proper programs) to clean it up nicely. Yes, if some net geek would like to do that I would gladly upload the fixed file. Warning, the file is 53 pages long as a Word document. In many ways, it speaks for itself. 
2) The Caners believe I am a non-Christian heretic. They refuse to refer to me as a fellow believer. This tells you all you need to know about their viewpoints of Calvinism.
3) The Caners refuse to allow for a three hour debate, though they could do so, and have admitted as much. They wanted only two hours, and compromised on a mere 2.5 hours. Ask them.
4) The Caners have been all over the map on format. Right now they want some form of Parliamentary debate format. What they do not want, in any way, shape, or form, is a debate long enough, and formatted enough, to where they would have to actually engage in meaningful textually-based cross-examination on the key biblical passages that contradict their position. 
5) The Caners are insisting upon using a thesis statement that has no meaning. It is not even written in proper English. It could be used and defended by a Unitarian Universalist. They refuse to use a thesis statement I have proposed that is clear and unambiguous. Here is their proposed thesis:

Resolved: That God is an Omnibenevolent God to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity.

Here is my proposed thesis:

God Seeks to Save Every Person Equally and Without Distinction

The fact is the Caners are doing all they can to make sure to protect themselves from serious interaction and examination in this "debate." I believe they are seeking to be so disrespectful and uncooperative that Dr. Ascol and I will simply give up the attempt and let them off the hook. I provide the entirety of the correspondence so that once again, as in the previous exchange between myself and Ergun Caner, the people of God can see the vast difference between their attitudes and reasoning and that presented by myself and Dr. Ascol. 
Be listening to the DL Tuesday morning for a full discussion of this situation. And as I noted in one of the last e-mails in the above linked file, our phone lines are open for Ergun and Emir Caner to call as well. I for one would love to hear either one defend their thesis statement live. They would be welcome to call.


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## Semper Fidelis (May 15, 2006)

Well I guess the Caner brothers are doing a service to us by demonstrating who they are disciples of by their lack of love for brethren...


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## Semper Fidelis (May 15, 2006)

If someone is afraid to engage when they are confronted with the Word then it is very indicative that their position is indefensible from the Word itself.

I guess what surprises me is that other Christians cannot see through it...


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## panta dokimazete (May 15, 2006)

It's the "itching ears" syndrome...

[Edited on 5-15-2006 by jdlongmire]


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## Founded on the Rock (May 15, 2006)

Yikes... this enrages me! I cannot believe how disrepectful and rude the Caners are... They still have not answered wheter or not they will address Dr. White and Dr. Ascol as brothers. I am beginning to wonder if it is prudent to continue trying to pursue a debate with men whom will do anything to conceal the truth.


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## turmeric (May 15, 2006)

Where does he FIND these people? He seems to have met more than his share of trolls!


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## Semper Fidelis (May 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Where does he FIND these people? He seems to have met more than his share of trolls!


Unfortunately, these "trolls" are respected in the Evangelical community. Ever heard of Dave Hunt for instance? 

Ironically, these guys apparently teach at Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary which is about 5 miles from where my home of record is in Fort Worth. We have a new pastor coming to my Church that is a recent graduate.


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## turmeric (May 15, 2006)

Dave Hunt is the uber-troll!


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## SolaScriptura (May 15, 2006)

Who are the Caners?


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## Semper Fidelis (May 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Dave Hunt is the uber-troll!




When he wrote in _Calvinism: Two Views_ that God would never command us to do anything we were incapable of doing I almost fell off the elliptical trainer I was on at the time I read it. I felt like screaming: "Hello?! Pelagius anyone?!!!!"

[Edited on 5-15-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## Semper Fidelis (May 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> Who are the Caners?


People in Singapore who punish young boys for spraying graffiti on the walls of their pristine urban nation but that's not important right now.

p.s. Dude, who's the guy with the short hair in your avatar?

[Edited on 5-15-2006 by SemperFideles]


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## Founded on the Rock (May 15, 2006)

Where do they get respect from and what are they respected for? It is so sad to me, as one who was caught in the tradition of 21st century revivalism, to see churches being led by the traditions of men. Oh the time wasted on pop evangelicalism that could have been spent in serious study of the Word..... May God grant the leaders of His Church wisdom to guide the Church from error


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## Hungus (May 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> Who are the Caners?



The Brothers Caner are a pair of brothers (they have one other who is not a theologian though I do not remember his name) who are the sons of an Islamic religious leader. Emir, the younger, is the dean of "The College at South Western" Theological Seminary (Baptist). He was my advisor and I have had numerous conversations with him. Of the two he is the least dogmatic in insistences. Ergun, the elder, is the dean at liberty University and rumoured to be the next president when Fallwell retires. Both are ardent Anabaptist apologists and the rumour mill in the Dallas area had the two coming under Page Paterson to form the Anabaptist institute at SWBTS (South Western Baptist theological seminary). Note that this rumour would be in conflict with Ergun becoming the next president of Liberty. 

The Caners both spent time at Criswell College and were well respected academians, they rose to prominence with the September 11th attacks and have both had fatwahs ordering their deaths due to their outspokenness against Islam.

Unfortunately Ergun is hyperdogmaticand has a style of engaugement that is more than mildly abrasive. His feelings towords Calvinism remind me of previous Anabaptists ... at MÃ¼nster ... before the occupation.


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## beej6 (May 15, 2006)

It's a shame really because I've read a few of the Caners' books (Unveling Islam, More Than A Prophet...) and had enjoyed them.


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## SolaScriptura (May 15, 2006)

Well, I read this email exchange. In my opinion, all sides demonstrated their share of pigheadedness... though I believe that White's comments reflected the restraint that comes from the fact that he was prepared to post the email exchanges for public scrutiny.

In that, I think he was in the wrong to make these public... especially, if you note, the Caners specifically requested that their email correspondence remain private.


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## Hungus (May 15, 2006)

Just a note the emails were not made public until after Ergun Caner commented that he didn't care - his statement Blog away being the demarkation line. It is true that White went in spoiling for a fight, but this didn't happen until after Caner raided the Founder's blog board and brought the whole thing to a head.

Thgis was the post that seems to have started the recent debacle:


> Ergun Mehmet Caner said...
> Gentlemen:
> 
> Well...after reading your comments about Dr Johnny Hunt- I am beside myself. Completely.
> ...



The rest of the public display may be found here:
http://www.founders.org/blog/2006/02/johnny-hunt-to-be-nominated-for.html


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## bened (May 15, 2006)

As a southern baptist pastor and graduate of two sbc seminaries, I'm stunned, frustrated, and not a little embarrased by the Caners' conduct or lack thereof. 

These guys need to be held accountable by their respective seminary presidents - and _pastors_. Some serious chain yanking is in order here.

Also, what's the deal with the haggle over format and moderator? The reigning national collegiate debate champs (Liberty University) - and their coach - is right there on campus?! Let that guy moderate it. White's even said he'd be fine with that. 

I would also love for each school's trustees to see White's posting and view the Caners' diatribe for themselves. White and Ascol aren't perfect (who is?) but, for crying out loud, for the Caners to act like that as professed born-again, Spirit-indwelt, Christian scholars/professors is beyond incredible. 

Let's pray for this situation. This debate, if done correctly, could do much for the kingdom and His truth. If it's not, White and Ascol will be in for an evangelical "Thrilla' in Manila". 

But, as others have said elsewhere, I get the feeling that this debate won't happen. The Caners will pull some eleventh-hour stipulation that their opponents can't or won't do. 

Hope I'm wrong.



[Edited on 5-15-2006 by bened]


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## R. Scott Clark (May 15, 2006)

> Like Beza, this next generation will ruin what men such as Dr Ascol built.



What rubbish.

Clearly this fellow has never deigned to read Beza (or anything recent about him -- does he have any idea what sort of "soul winner" Beza was?) and guess what, he doesn't even have to read Latin to do it! 

rsc


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## fivepointcalvinist (May 15, 2006)

these people are morons. degrees dont make you intelligent. dr white should just pass on pursuing a debate with clowns who heat their homes with the hot air they promulgate...


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## bened (May 15, 2006)

Please forgive me. 

After a second perusal of Dr. White's posting, Bert O'Donnell (LBU debate coach) will indeed moderate the debate - if it does happen.

Got so wrapped around the axle during the first reading that I totally missed it. 

Nonetheless, it's really not my fault but the imitation Tex-Mex lunch I had. But as any Texan on this board will testify, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do when that craving hits - even if it means eating your enchiladas in the middle of pig-pickin', hash-makin' South Carulinuh.

Thank you for your support.


[Edited on 5-16-2006 by bened]


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## BobVigneault (May 15, 2006)

[Moderating on] Good discussions fellows but I would encourage you to stay with evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of those involved, and their arguments, without falling prey to name calling and blowing off steam. Go hit the heavy bag a few times and then come back and discuss some more. [Moderating off]

[Edited on 5-16-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## panta dokimazete (May 15, 2006)

Mercy! I read the whole thing! I must say that my opinion of Mr. Caner is lowered...and in the spirit of graciousness, that is all I will say.

-JD


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