# Baucham: Our concept of race is not biblical, its artificial.



## JM (Jun 3, 2020)



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## Ed Walsh (Jun 4, 2020)

A mixed-up view of race seriously damaging our country.

Candace Owens
*Confession: GeorgeFloyd is neither a martyr or a hero. But I hope his family gets justice.* (18 minutes)

I have studied statistics over the years and I agree with Candace

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## Wretched Man (Jun 6, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> A mixed-up view of race seriously damaging our country.
> 
> Candace Owens
> *Confession: GeorgeFloyd is neither a martyr or a hero. But I hope his family gets justice.* (18 minutes)
> ...


I suspect the most frustrated people in all this are the blacks who want to live peaceably with others and don’t accept these false, race-baiting narratives, yet are lumped in with and pressured by the BLM crowd.

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## JTB.SDG (Jun 6, 2020)

I listened to the entire Candace interview. It was very interesting. At the same time, it seems there aren't very many black people or black Christians echoing this (I could be wrong, that's just my impression). I'd be interested to hear a larger sample size of what the black Christian community feels about all this. 

It seems to me there are two extremes that aren't right. The one extreme is the one Candace seems to reference. But the other extreme is people like us being dismissive about the whole thing. I tend to cringe at BOTH.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 6, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> It seems to me there are two extremes that aren't right. The one extreme is the one Candace seems to reference. But the other extreme is people like us being dismissive about the whole thing. I tend to cringe at BOTH.


I’d be curious who you’re referring to when you mention “people like us”. I doubt there are many people on any side who have been dismissive of the police officer who senselessly sat on George Floyd’s neck for 9 mins. The guy should be charged for murder and I think most would agree. What is most frustrating though is how the race baiters use this as one more excuse to continue fanning flames on the whole racial tension.

And all these incidents seem to involve recurring dynamics. Some criminal engaging in criminal activity acts belligerent towards police, resists arrest or attacks them to the point where he has to be restrained or shot at. Subsequently, the initial narrative the media portrays is some “good, family man just minding his own business” who was profiled and racially targeted by white police manifesting the supposed white supremest system. And anyone who tries to “dismiss” this is racist...

I am so sick and tired of this.

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## a mere housewife (Jun 6, 2020)

The man who contracts to do our lawn (who has become a friend) told me today that as a black Christian, he prays for Derek Chavin that God would forgive him and that he would be filled with the love of Christ.

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## Pergamum (Jun 6, 2020)

Just to be contrarian: Yes, we are one human race and one blood. But the concepts of racial and ethnic differences are rooted in reality. There are many physiological differences between different blocs of people. This doesn't mean they are all not saveable before God, nor does it mean that their ontological worth is not all the same, but neither does it mean they are all alike and with the same gifts and weaknesses as others.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 6, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Just to be contrarian: Yes, we are one human race and one blood. But the concepts of racial and ethnic differences is rooted in reality. There are many physiological differences between different blocs of people. This doesn't mean they are all not saveable before God, nor does it mean that their ontological worth is not all the same, but neither does it mean they are all alike and with the same gifts and weaknesses as others.


I did think of Jeremiah 13:23 when listening to Vodie Baucham’s speech in the OP...


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 6, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Just to be contrarian: Yes, we are one human race and one blood. But the concepts of racial and ethnic differences is rooted in reality. There are many physiological differences between different blocs of people. This doesn't mean they are all not saveable before God, nor does it mean that their ontological worth is not all the same, but neither does it mean they are all alike and with the same gifts and weaknesses as others.



Agreed. The assumption that race is a social construct is partly what led to the notion that gender is a social construct. No. In both cases, the differences are biological facts, not social constructs. The differences between the sub-races of the human race do not make any of them less than human, but the differences still exist. And before anyone asks, no, I am not saying that inter-racial marriage is inherently sinful, nor am I saying that all people who live in the same geographical region need to be of the same racial background, nor am I saying that anyone ought to be oppressed on account of their race. All that I am saying is that there are minor differences among the sub-races that comprise the human race which are rooted in empirical reality.

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## JTB.SDG (Jun 7, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> I’d be curious who you’re referring to when you mention “people like us”.


When I say dismissive I mean dismissive of those who feel the need to protest. I'm obviously not a fan of the violent sort. But as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color. That's all I meant.


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## Phil D. (Jun 7, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> There are many physiological differences between different blocs of people.


True. Yet laws and their applications should make no such distinctions.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 7, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> When I say dismissive I mean dismissive of those who feel the need to protest. I'm obviously not a fan of the violent sort. But as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color. That's all I meant.



This is more of a rant than a response to your statements.

You said, "as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color." And why does skin pigment make any difference? It doesn't. It is the culture that is different--very different. 

78% of blacks that claim to be protestants believe in abortion at some level. 75% of blacks are now born out of wedlock. And I don't mean married at one time, but the father has left. I mean not married at all. And more black babies are aborted than are born alive. Aborted at a rate three times that of whites. So much for Black Lives Matter. What chance do these children have to become useful members of society? Very little. They are told over and over that they are victims. Victims of all sorts of things, but especially victims of white privilege. Many blacks are racists to the extreme. They have been told over and over again, mostly by white democrats and many prophets of there own, that they are entitled to practically every basic need that other cultures work for. They should be encouraged to work harder than their white counterparts, but to say that labels one a racist.

Yesterday I did some research from FBI statistics and then normalized the data to adjust for population differences. Do you know that blacks per capita are murdered at a rate of 4.71 times more than their white counterparts? And whites rarely commit the murder. In 2016 only 243 blacks were killed by whites. Nearly all the rest were murdered by other blacks.

What I say next, I have never heard a single person say, but I will. Black culture is under the judgment of God. Of course, there are secondary causes, but to concentrate on those causes and leave God out of it is a colossal error. They desperately need a cultural shot in the arm that can only come from the saving grace of God. But they would deeply resent being told that. But let's tell them anyway. God is merciful.

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## JTB.SDG (Jun 7, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> This is more of a rant than a response to your statements.
> 
> You said, "as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color." And why does skin pigment make any difference? It doesn't. It is the culture that is different--very different.
> 
> ...


Ed,

I can assume that your grandfather (or great grandfather) wasn't a slave.

There is history you and I can't understand, being white.

That's all I'm saying.

I realize the vast majority of people here disagree. That's fine.

I would just appreciate to hear especially from my colored Christian brothers and sisters their thoughts on what's going on.

Blessings.

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## arapahoepark (Jun 7, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> Ed,
> 
> I can assume that your grandfather (or great grandfather) wasn't a slave.
> 
> ...


Colored meaning what? Black only?

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## JTB.SDG (Jun 7, 2020)

I give up. Blessings everyone.

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## B.L. (Jun 7, 2020)

My church is doing a summer series through the Psalms and today my pastor preached a sermon on Psalm 17 and the message in its entirety was about systemic racism in the U.S. with the obvious focus being on George Floyd and the protests of the past week. I've been disappointed that nearly everyone has turned the tragic event that happened into a conversation on racism instead of on police brutality. Derek Chauvin abused his position of authority and killed George Floyd; however, I haven't seen any factual information come out indicating the awful event was racially motivated and yet the discussions have been mostly about racism. Perhaps information will come to light later indicating Chauvin was in fact a racist...who knows. Maybe Tou Thao, the Laotian police officer on the scene was also a racist...who knows. But to make this entirely about racism without proof is slander. Racism is a terrible sin. We shouldn't be quick to accuse people of committing this sin without there being proof. Christians of all people need to be cautious thinkers in this area and not be ruled by emotion.

I grieve with those who are grieving and I weep with those who are weeping...my heart is heavy.

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## arapahoepark (Jun 7, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> I give up. Blessings everyone.


My apologies. I wasn't trying to start anything, just clarifying.


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## ZackF (Jun 7, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> This is more of a rant than a response to your statements.
> 
> You said, "as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color." And why does skin pigment make any difference? It doesn't. It is the culture that is different--very different.



If one digs a little he'll find that the various statistics describing black _and_ white births today as a whole reflect a much graver situation than that of either race in 1960 and especially before then. Whatever 'community' that so happens to be under judgment now, none are escaping it indefinitely.

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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm pretty sure a lot of communities are experiencing some judgment right now, including the church.



JTB.SDG said:


> But as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color. That's all I meant.



Jon, I understood what you meant. That's why I posted what I did above, though I should have quoted your message.

Greg (the friend I quoted above) said some other things too, about what he has personally witnessed of real racism problems in his lifetime -- things involving the KKK (I remember things involving the KKK in my area growing up and making the news in my own lifetime). He also said that the police have a really hard job and it probably gets to some of them. He supports the protests but not the violence. He said we all have so many forms of hate in our heart until the love of Christ enters us. But it was most helpful to me that he said he is praying for Mr. Chauvin. I have been so troubled this week. All our justice is so partial. And our efforts at it seem to bring about a situation where we are just focusing our partiality and hypocrisy in another direction. And I mean this about me, about every last one of us. Not that we can stop trying. But we aren't doing it very well. I was comforted by other things I read, and even by the flowers in my garden that our injustice will be gone someday and there will be a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

But I had forgotten that there is something even more difficult to achieve, and more incredible, more noble, more present in the broken state of things than justice -- and more transcendent hereafter. There is mercy. I'm so glad that yesterday my brother reminded me.

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## Stephen L Smith (Jun 7, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> They desperately need a cultural shot in the arm that can only come from the saving grace of God. But they would deeply resent being told that. But let's tell them anyway. God is merciful.





JTB.SDG said:


> There is history you and I can't understand, being white.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.





arapahoepark said:


> Colored meaning what? Black only?


Friends, I am not really qualified to speak on the situation in the USA but I live in a country that has gained worldwide respect for genuine attempts to bring about racial harmony. I make that statement with some qualification because some of this harmony has been 'politically correct', and my country in general has moved away from its Christian heritage. For example I mentioned this countries evil abortion law which recently went through Parliament.

When New Zealand was colonized over 200 years ago, there was no doubt Maori land was taken off the Maori, often by Government force. Over the centuries this created a festering sore which Governments of the past 50 years or so have attempted to rectify. Am I saying the Maori were innocent and Europeans were guilty? No! Prior to European settlement Maori were a barbaric people who practiced cannibalism. They had a cultural practice of utu - revenge killing. Although some Europeans did steal Maori land, there is a tremendous history here of Missionaries coming from the United Kingdom to New Zealand with the gospel. Many Maori were soundly converted and left their pagan ways. The missionaries had the spiritual interests of the Maori at heart and treated them kindly. 

This has taught me that it is right to seek racial harmony as appropriate. It is right to correct past wrongs. Obviously there is a fine line here because I am not responsible for the racial wrongs of 200 years ago. But I do acknowledge the wrongs of Maori unjustly losing their land. But in the final analysis it is the gospel preached with power that brings repentance, change and racial harmony. 

I have just been listening to four powerful sermons by Dr M Lloyd-Jones on 1 Thess 1:5 " because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." It has strengthened my conviction that the gospel needs to come to cour various nations in Word, and also the power of the Holy Spirit. 

I highly recommend these four sermons by Dr Lloyd-Jones

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## Jo_Was (Jun 7, 2020)

I want to reign in some biology assumptions here. Race is a social construct. Race is not biological as we talk about it today (which really has inputted ethnicity to be biological). Just as "gender" has been conflated with "sex" in terminology and connotation recently, I think many do the same with "ethnicity" and "race." Much of the "divergence" in biological "race" (or, in other words...the minute, statistically insignificant percentage of genes that diverge to give me more melanin and darker hair than someone else) is over inflated. It is a common misconception for many things about humans that we attribute to genetics what is often more nuanced and flavored with environmental factors (that nature vs nurture...people often state nature what is usually more nurture). This idea that there are substantial, biological differences is already shaky based on how complicated we know genes even within a family generation (mother/father to child) are, much less in a world of increasing globalization and a nation (America) with so much genetic interbreeding that these "differences" are not able to be applied so monolithically. I think some of the simplest way to prove this as faulty reasoning is in looking at health outcomes, many of which we often attribute to large groups of people. You will find that health outcomes of [insert ethnic group here] in America is going to be different than their "genetically similar" counterparts in a home nation. (Think: obesity or cholesterol as some big ticket items). (Note: Not saying health data is not helpful, but it helps to know it in context, and the groups to which one belongs). One of my other favorite (and more fun) examples is how Dutch people went from being the shortest people in the world to the tallest people in the world with the advent of industrialization--clearly a matter of genetics being bolstered by nurture and not just "Dutch people are tall thanks to genetics alone" or "Dutch people are natural basketball players."

A lot of our predispositions, certainly, have something to do with genes. But just as I have before talked on this board the "astrology/fortune-telling" nature of DNA tests to "tell one who they are" -- so too I believe it is folly that we often over-exaggerate the role of genes and instead use them as forecasting the potential of a person--physical, mental, emotional, etc. That's just simply not how it works.

I am not to say all that in order to be "color blind" or to say that there are not ethnic/cultural differences. But, as alluded to, ethnicity/culture is not necessarily based on "race" or biology (though that is correlated because of migration patterns of people in the world, so certainly it often is closely tied and has been for much of human history).

I also think, oddly enough, as I dwelled on several Voddie Baucham talks on the subject and my own thoughts, that I have found that the way we talk about race, especially in recent times in this country, has abstracted race even further from specific ethnic groups or cultural identities to really just skin color. And stereotypes and monolithic assumptions to whole groups of people just based on skin color, not even just culture . All black people are not the same ethnicity and do not share the same culture. All Asians, not even all Filipinos or all Chinese or all Indians, share the same ethnicity or culture (ironically, even genetics diverge in these groups!!). Yet, we are abstracting more and more to monolithic groups that even the SJW who demands all voices be heard, essentially erases the voices of many ethnic groups at once and subsumes us all into categories of simply color. It's a dangerous trail to get on. As Baucham notes: there is a ditch on either side, and I hope we as Christians do not stumble to either way, which I think is a fear of many. I have seen many churches and church people dip their toes in either ditch.

I appreciated this talk on Ethnic Gnosticism that Voddie made, to which I alluded to above:

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## py3ak (Jun 7, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> Black culture is under the judgment of God. Of course, there are secondary causes, but to concentrate on those causes and leave God out of it is a colossal error. They desperately need a cultural shot in the arm that can only come from the saving grace of God. But they would deeply resent being told that. But let's tell them anyway.



Would you please name a culture that is not under the judgment of God?

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## ZackF (Jun 7, 2020)

@Jo_Was thank you. I appreciated the information you supplied a few years ago about the genetic tests people have been taking. This is insightful as well.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 7, 2020)

py3ak said:


> Would you please name a culture that is not under the judgment of God?



Can I answer a question with some questions? Are you saying that all cultures are treated equally by God? Was the Judgment of God on Israel the same as his judgment on Judah? Nations are simply moral persons, so I guess I could ask about individuals too. We're Jacob, and Esau treated equally? As far as that goes, are any two people treated identically by God?

I think it's pretty safe to say that the once more Christian America is under greater condemnation for the sin of abortion then China.
To whom much is given much will be required?

I've already mentioned that the absolute predestination of God includes secondary cause. If not the judgment of God on the Black culture, then what? Are they an inferior race?

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## JimmyH (Jun 7, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> Ed,
> 
> *I can assume that your grandfather (or great grandfather) wasn't a slave.*
> 
> ...


Y'know, I'm one who thought Candace Owens' 'rant' was great. On the money. Sure, the guy was unjustly murdered, I'm with that, and think the cop should be prosecuted. 

Shifting gears ... I grew up in the segregated south. I'm 71 years old, have seen white/colored drinking fountains, bathrooms, all of that stuff. 

I've seen racial prejudice in action in Florida where I grew up, and in Mississippi where I spent time with relatives in the '60s. I'm glad institutionalized racism ended.

Anyone who says it hasn't is ignoring what it was then, as opposed to now. 

We've had a two term black president of the USA. Congressmen and women, senators, supreme court justices ... Brain surgeons, CEOs, black people demonstrating excellence in many fields. They had the opportunity formerly denied them.

The human condition of tribalism still exists, but that is another issue, and cannot be legislated away ... only the Holy Spirit can change human hearts.

I could go on and on, but I expect you get my drift ... as for slavery ... My mother's side of the family was Russian/Jewish. 

My ancestors were slaves for 400 years in Egypt, 70 years in Babylon. 

Nobody is asking for reperations .

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## Andrew35 (Jun 7, 2020)

Jo_Was said:


> I want to reign in some biology assumptions here. Race is a social construct. Race is not biological as we talk about it today (which really has inputted ethnicity to be biological). Just as "gender" has been conflated with "sex" in terminology and connotation recently, I think many do the same with "ethnicity" and "race." Much of the "divergence" in biological "race" (or, in other words...the minute, statistically insignificant percentage of genes that diverge to give me more melanin and darker hair than someone else) is over inflated. It is a common misconception for many things about humans that we attribute to genetics what is often more nuanced and flavored with environmental factors (that nature vs nurture...people often state nature what is usually more nurture). This idea that there are substantial, biological differences is already shaky based on how complicated we know genes even within a family generation (mother/father to child) are, much less in a world of increasing globalization and a nation (America) with so much genetic interbreeding that these "differences" are not able to be applied so monolithically. I think some of the simplest way to prove this as faulty reasoning is in looking at health outcomes, many of which we often attribute to large groups of people. You will find that health outcomes of [insert ethnic group here] in America is going to be different than their "genetically similar" counterparts in a home nation. (Think: obesity or cholesterol as some big ticket items). (Note: Not saying health data is not helpful, but it helps to know it in context, and the groups to which one belongs). One of my other favorite (and more fun) examples is how Dutch people went from being the shortest people in the world to the tallest people in the world with the advent of industrialization--clearly a matter of genetics being bolstered by nurture and not just "Dutch people are tall thanks to genetics alone" or "Dutch people are natural basketball players."
> 
> A lot of our predispositions, certainly, have something to do with genes. But just as I have before talked on this board the "astrology/fortune-telling" nature of DNA tests to "tell one who they are" -- so too I believe it is folly that we often over-exaggerate the role of genes and instead use them as forecasting the potential of a person--physical, mental, emotional, etc. That's just simply not how it works.
> 
> ...


Spot on.

I believe if you want to go purely on genetics, there are roughly 5 (or 6? I forget) major genetic clusters around the world. Trouble is, of course, in border areas you get mixed genetics. This is even pre-globalization. So the notion of a "race" becomes very difficult to apply in many cases. (E.g., what race are Uyghurs, exactly? Indians [from India] are actually Caucasian. Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese are actually different ethnic groups, etc.)

Then, in the US, as Jo mentioned, you get a real genetic party: "African"-Americans on average have from 25-35% European DNA. Puerto Ricans (like myself, on my mother's side) have Spanish, African, Native America, and even Jewish ancestry. If you've ever taken an ancestry test, you may have discovered you were far more diverse than you thought you were.

In light of all this, the concept of "race" as we use it is highly problematic and based more on outmoded science than on authentic differences between peoples.

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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2020)

JimmyH said:


> I could go on and on, but I expect you get my drift ... as for slavery ... My mother's side of the family was Russian/Jewish.
> 
> My ancestors were slaves for 400 years in Egypt, 70 years in Babylon.
> 
> Nobody is asking for reperations .



I appreciate a lot of what you said. But I think your remembered consciousness of slavery must be very different from a consciousness that relates to our own nation and that would have impacted your opportunities and actual memories. Your Russian/Jewish mother's side is not present here _in America _because of being stolen from their land/possessions and sold as property. Sold apart from each other, disallowed to keep their own children. Freed after several generations of owning nothing, of not being allowed to form stable families. Into a culture that still segregated them, denied them equal opportunities with other immigrants, and maintained for awhile many forms of contempt.
Your ancestors were able to flee that for a better place, and that is part of your consciousness of being an American citizen.
It would be far different if America were the place of your persecution and if in your lifetime you had experienced the segregation and contempt.

Whatever we want to say about 'reparations', all of this was a great evil that leaves a deep wound on a culture, and problems that persist. That don't go away because we wave a magic equality wand.

My own consciousness of being an American involves many encounters with what was a very clear racially motivated hatred (the belief that some people groups are cursed and ought to be enslaved, a dragging death, etc.) I don't know what it's like to be on the other side of those encounters, to have that consciousness embedded in my national heritage -- citing the hardly remembered slavery of people in another nation is not the same as having dealt with it and its ramifications here.

I like to hear Candace Owens speak too. She says a lot of good things.

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## py3ak (Jun 7, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> Can I answer a question with some questions?


I would rather you answered the question -- that was why I asked it.



Ed Walsh said:


> Are you saying that all cultures are treated equally by God? Was the Judgment of God on Israel the same as his judgment on Judah? Nations are simply moral persons, so I guess I could ask about individuals too. We're Jacob, and Esau treated equally? As far as that goes, are any two people treated identically by God?


I didn't assert anything, you might remember, since I asked a question.



Ed Walsh said:


> I think it's pretty safe to say that the once more Christian America is under greater condemnation for the sin of abortion then China.
> To whom much is given much will be required?


To whom much is given, much will be required.



Ed Walsh said:


> I've already mentioned that the absolute predestination of God includes secondary cause. If not the judgment of God on the Black culture, then what? Are they an inferior race?


That escalated quickly. I'm not sure why you're asking me if anyone is an inferior race, but no. The image of God, and the damage done to it by Adam's fall, is not affected by the variations among groups of humans.


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## Pergamum (Jun 7, 2020)

Phil D. said:


> True. Yet laws and their applications should make no such distinctions.



I am not even sure that is true. Some laws make sense for specific demographics and peoples. For instance, in some regions, the sale of alcohol was forbidden to aboriginal peoples/natives due to their propensity for drunken violence and lack of self-control. These laws make sense even if they are not universal to the entire population.


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## JimmyH (Jun 7, 2020)

a mere housewife said:


> I appreciate a lot of what you said. But I think your remembered consciousness of slavery must be very different from a consciousness that relates to our own nation and that would have impacted your opportunities and actual memories. Your Russian/Jewish mother's side is not present here _in America _because of being stolen from their land/possessions and sold as property. Sold apart from each other, disallowed to keep their own children. Freed after several generations of owning nothing, of not being allowed to form stable families. Into a culture that still segregated them, denied them equal opportunities with other immigrants, and maintained for awhile many forms of contempt.
> Your ancestors were able to flee that for a better place, and that is part of your consciousness of being an American citizen.
> It would be far different if America were the place of your persecution and if in your lifetime you had experienced the segregation and contempt.
> 
> ...


While everything you say is true from my own personal perspective there is more to it. My father was a non observant Baptist from Mississippi, my mother a non observant Jew from NY ... I was confused. 

I don't look Jewish, nor do I have a Jewish surname. I was in a position to interact with Gentiles who felt no reluctance to denigrate Jews. My mother was very sympathetic to the civil rights movement, and I was as well. I had great admiration for the Reverend Dr King.

I was about 12, on a city bus in Miami Beach. As we were going down Washington Ave two teenage black girls sitting in the seat in front of mine began talking about the Jews. At that time Miami Beach was largely a Jewish community and the area had a large population of elderly Jews walking along which is probably what stimulated the girls.

So it was 'the Jews this, and the Jews that,' coming out of the mouth of one of the girls. I was quite taken aback. Any Jewish people I knew were unquestionably civil rights advocates. In the ensuing years I can't count the times I've been in the presence of white, and black people, referring to Jews in a negative way, that they probably wouldn't have if they had known of my ancestry. At least not in my presence.

What does this have to do with your post ? Well ... I know racism up close and personal. Not as an abstract concept, or something I've seen on the evening news or in a documentary. 

My ancestors slavery was not in this country, or in recent history, but 6 million Jews gassed in Germany happened just a few years before I was born, and I do know something about feelings of being among a group singled out because of their ethnicity. 

At 13 years old, in a car driving from Florida to NY I saw a billboard in front of a roadside Inn that read, "NO (N-word), Dogs, of Jews Allowed." I know what it is to burn inside due to bigotry and racism. I get it.

They still spray paint swastikas on Synagogues, and murder people because they are Jewish. Not only in the Middle East, but around the world.

I abhor racism, and I have no personal guilt on that score. Nor will I allow any to be forced upon me because of the sins of our fathers. 

Revelation 7:9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

On 'that day' the issue of racism will be solved.

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## Andrew35 (Jun 7, 2020)

JimmyH said:


> While everything you say is true from my own personal perspective there is more to it. My father was a non observant Baptist from Mississippi, my mother a non observant Jew from NY ... I was confused.
> 
> I don't look Jewish, nor do I have a Jewish surname. I was in a position to interact with Gentiles who felt no reluctance to denigrate Jews. My mother was very sympathetic to the civil rights movement, and I was as well. I had great admiration for the Reverend Dr King.
> 
> ...


Interesting! That reminds me, I was once talking to this friendly black guy, a doctor of all things, about some of the problems in the US. Abruptly, he loudly proclaimed, "Well, you know, it's all the Jews!" and then began to detail how all the problems in our society could be traced back to... the Jews.

I mumbled something and slowly, cautiously, disengaged.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2020)

JimmyH said:


> While everything you say is true from my own personal perspective there is more to it. My father was a non observant Baptist from Mississippi, my mother a non observant Jew from NY ... I was confused.
> 
> I don't look Jewish, nor do I have a Jewish surname. I was in a position to interact with Gentiles who felt no reluctance to denigrate Jews. My mother was very sympathetic to the civil rights movement, and I was as well. I had great admiration for the Reverend Dr King.
> 
> ...



I have some Jewish ancestry, though I was never taught to identify much with it. Ruben has been telling me about some of the emerging anti-semitic things happening these days in NY, and it's heartbreaking. I think even as a child I found the racist things I encountered appalling and unfathomable, and I had a hard time reconciling them with people I took to be good Christians. I have my own special brands of hate, that are not superior to anyone else's. But I understand what you are saying. I do want to always actually see the human I'm looking at. I don't think colorblind is the right word. Our skin tone like everything else is the work of God in love. It's part of seeing the image of God. If we can't see the humanity of someone in their shade of skin, we do have a problem.

I think to one degree or another many of us can identify with being targeted with contempt. With a sense that people did not even treat us as fully human. And those experiences do shape our consciousness in many ways. So do sins that have steamrolled down the generations of our culture or family heritages. This one has just steamrolled down to us on a national scale.

Ie, somewhere along the line, my Jewish ancestors came here and found a more level playing field than what they left. Somewhere along the line, Greg was telling me that his ancestors were brought here and sold. That's a different consciousness of what 'America' means in our heritage. And that's why our ancestral Jewish slavery under Egypt does not have the same shaping force on our current culture as African-American slavery (speaking in natural terms, not gospel symbols). That was a national evil that went on for generations, and is going to linger in various forms, as we've witnessed in compound ways this week. I just don't think it helps the problem to ignore its true dimensions and reality, even though many of the solutions we have thrown and propose to throw at it are going to become part of it steamrolling on. We do need to listen to each other. The Holy Spirit listens to us. It's not one of the world's solutions. It's one of God's.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 8, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> Some criminal engaging in criminal activity acts belligerent towards police, resists arrest or attacks them to the point where he has to be restrained or shot at.



Is there a video / evidece of George Floyd resisting this? I know he was a repeat criminal and was high when he was arrested. I didn't see him resisting arrest or fighting with police. Although the video footage has a lot of cuts and I may not have seen it all. This isn't to say that this hasn't happened in the other cases.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 8, 2020)

BLM said:


> Derek Chauvin abused his position of authority and killed George Floyd; however, I haven't seen any factual information come out indicating the awful event was racially motivated and yet the discussions have been mostly about racism. Perhaps information will come to light later indicating Chauvin was in fact a racist...who knows. Maybe Tou Thao, the Laotian police officer on the scene was also a racist...who knows. But to make this entirely about racism without proof is slander. Racism is a terrible sin.



Racism has become a blurry word over the past 10 years and has started to mean more than blatant racism (KKK, NeoNazi). Stereotyping, intolerance and cultural disagreement has been mixed into its meaning blurring the definition. I had one person tell me that the dictionary definition cannot be followed because it was written by racists. In the case of Derek Chauvin I think we are dealing with a person motivated by his own vices and racism not being one of them. This to me is another case that can be evaluated against the Standford Prison Experiment.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 8, 2020)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Is there a video / evidece of George Floyd resisting this? I know he was a repeat criminal and was high when he was arrested. I didn't see him resisting arrest or fighting with police. Although the video footage has a lot of cuts and I may not have seen it all. This isn't to say that this hasn't happened in the other cases.


First of all, before the police were called, the store cashiers (one of whom was black) confronted George in his car to retrieve the pack of cigarettes they claimed he purchased with a counterfeit bill. You can’t hear anything, but it is on video and obviously he tells them to piss off... and they subsequent described him as high and out of control.

When the police arrive, he doesn’t initially appear (at least on video) to physically altercate, but I’m curious what he was saying to the police. I doubt the subsequent events were triggered by a civil conversation. And I doubt the media will ever shed light on that. I am also curious what exactly happened in the police car when somehow he ended out the other side. If he was properly submitting to the authorities, not sure why he wouldn’t have compliantly just sat in the back seat (he’s been through the drill before...)

Keep in mind George Floyd is a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman’s belly and ransacked her home 6 years ago.


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## B.L. (Jun 8, 2020)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Racism has become a blurry word over the past 10 years and has started to mean more than blatant racism (KKK, NeoNazi). Stereotyping, intolerance and cultural disagreement has been mixed into its meaning blurring the definition. I had one person tell me that the dictionary definition cannot be followed because it was written by racists. In the case of Derek Chauvin I think we are dealing with a person motivated by his own vices and racism not being one of them.



I stopped purchasing printed dictionaries for this reason. It seems like words have gained quite a bit of elasticity in recent years.

Derek Chauvin isn't the first officer in the Minneapolis Police Department to abuse/misuse his position of authority in recent years. Remember this case involving Mohamed Noor who shot the Australian woman? https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapol...l-shooting-justine-ruszczyk/story?id=63547748


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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 8, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> When the police arrive, he doesn’t initially appear (at least on video) to physically alternate, but I’m curious what he was saying to the police.



My words cannot be used to justify physical restraint unless I threaten harm. We can say whatever we want to the police; I would just say its not wise since they are the ones that hold your immediate fate in their hands (recommendations to judges etc). 



Wretched Man said:


> Keep in mind George Floyd is a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman’s belly and ransacked her home 6 years ago.



While past actions should give a police officer reason to be cautious; it cannot be used as reason to rough up somebody. From what I have seen he was complying with their requests and was even handcuffed when they placed him against the wall. Once again I am not sure how this resulted with him on the ground with the police offer having placed his knee on his neck. Sometimes police will deliberately do things like this to career criminals by claiming the person is resisting and shouting out "do not resist" to give reason to be physical even though they are not resisting.


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## PezLad (Jun 16, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> What I say next, I have never heard a single person say, but I will. Black culture is under the judgment of God. Of course, there are secondary causes, but to concentrate on those causes and leave God out of it is a colossal error. They desperately need a cultural shot in the arm that can only come from the saving grace of God. But they would deeply resent being told that. But let's tell them anyway. God is merciful.


Thomas Sowell, an economist and political commentator has a book called black rednecks and white liberals. He details how black culture is not black at all; it is white. Black culture comes from "crackers" and "rednecks" who they themselves came from certain poor parts of Britain, and in which the slave trade population was concentrated among, such that the slave blacks assimilated this white cracker and redneck culture, and which at later times was identified falsely as a uniquely black culture. As far as victim hood, blacks are victims not in the personal sense, but in the political sense, that their alleged political supporters have only ever hurt. 1960s welfare and onward is what got blacks from low incomes hooked on welfare and hence dependent and also minimum wage laws etc; furthermore "black culture" which is really from rednecks and crackers is absolutely destructive, yet most universities support it, linguistic/cultural diversity.

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## PezLad (Jun 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Agreed. The assumption that race is a social construct is partly what led to the notion that gender is a social construct. No. In both cases, the differences are biological facts, not social constructs.


Macro evolutionary theory, and that by Charles Darwin, is the source of this problem, namely race does not exist. "_*On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" Race presupposes we came from apes and that some "people groups" are closer to apes than others, whereas bibilically and truly we are all descendent of Adam. Now Darwin got this right, namely microevolution, natural selection and mutation, which is why we look so different. We are all genetic subsets of Adam and Eve, particular genes brought to fruition by mutations and natural selection, that is environmental pressures. *_


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## PezLad (Jun 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Agreed. The assumption that race is a social construct is partly what led to the notion that gender is a social construct. No. In both cases, the differences are biological facts, not social constructs. The differences between the sub-races of the human race do not make any of them less than human, but the differences still exist. And before anyone asks, no, I am not saying that inter-racial marriage is inherently sinful, nor am I saying that all people who live in the same geographical region need to be of the same racial background, nor am I saying that anyone ought to be oppressed on account of their race. All that I am saying is that there are minor differences among the sub-races that comprise the human race which are rooted in empirical reality.


What your saying conveys some truth but your language is utterly false. We ought not to use the term race. There are no races for we are not descendent from apes. Terms like sub races may mislead others into thinking we are using language of superiority and inferiority. There are differences between people groups as subsets of Adam and Eve.

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## Wretched Man (Jun 17, 2020)

PezLad said:


> Thomas Sowell, an economist and political commentator has a book called black rednecks and white liberals. He details how black culture is not black at all; it is white. Black culture comes from "crackers" and "rednecks" who they themselves came from certain poor parts of Britain, and in which the slave trade population was concentrated among, such that the slave blacks assimilated this white cracker and redneck culture, and which at later times was identified falsely as a uniquely black culture. As far as victim hood, blacks are victims not in the personal sense, but in the political sense, that their alleged political supporters have only ever hurt. 1960s welfare and onward is what got blacks from low incomes hooked on welfare and hence dependent and also minimum wage laws etc; furthermore "black culture" which is really from rednecks and crackers is absolutely destructive, yet most universities support it, linguistic/cultural diversity.


Very true. The real oppressors are the white liberal politicians who continue to perpetuate the victimization perception of blacks and hail themselves as their hero’s. For 60 years, they’ve been telling the black community to just wait and give them their votes... and after 60 years, they’re still waiting for some reparation handout that is going to make everything alright. Meanwhile they collectively deteriorate into an ever increasing bitter and self-destructive “race”.

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## JM (Jun 17, 2020)

PezLad said:


> Thomas Sowell, an economist and political commentator has a book called black rednecks and white liberals. He details how black culture is not black at all; it is white. Black culture comes from "crackers" and "rednecks" who they themselves came from certain poor parts of Britain, and in which the slave trade population was concentrated among, such that the slave blacks assimilated this white cracker and redneck culture, and which at later times was identified falsely as a uniquely black culture. As far as victim hood, blacks are victims not in the personal sense, but in the political sense, that their alleged political supporters have only ever hurt. 1960s welfare and onward is what got blacks from low incomes hooked on welfare and hence dependent and also minimum wage laws etc; furthermore "black culture" which is really from rednecks and crackers is absolutely destructive, yet most universities support it, linguistic/cultural diversity.


I've likely read/listened to all fo Sowell's books.


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 17, 2020)

Call it race, call it whatever you will. I heard Voddie say that Rom 9:3 justifies having a special affinity for "one's people" according to the flesh. A poll done by Pew Research in 2019 demonstrated that just about only 5% of white people report that their race has any bearing in sense of personal identity, but nearly 95% of blacks say that their race is important to their sense of personal identity. Interesting. But it might be a reason why white Christians are so quick to think race isn't important, or that race can and should be ignored, whereas blacks very much celebrate their blackness.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 17, 2020)

PezLad said:


> What your saying conveys some truth but your language is utterly false. We ought not to use the term race. There are no races for we are not descendent from apes. Terms like sub races may mislead others into thinking we are using language of superiority and inferiority. There are differences between people groups as subsets of Adam and Eve.



If it conveys some truth then it cannot be _utterly_ false. The problem with your argument is that you are making a word-concept fallacy by assuming that race only ever means race in a Darwinian sense. For example, the Southern Presbyterian theologian, Thomas Smyth, who was definitely not a Darwinian (and was even looked upon with suspicion by some of his fellow Southerners), wrote a book on _The Unity of the Human Races_ in 1850. Consequently, recognising that there is ultimately one human race as a result of monogenesis is not incongruous with recognising that there are sub-races within that one race. Denying that there is such a thing as races is simply burying one's head in the sand in the face of self-evident facts. None of what I have said here means that any of the races are morally or spiritually superior to one another. Nor does it mean that they always need to be geographically separated or that inter-racial marriage is wrong. But pretending race does not exist is simply playing into the hands of real racists who want to paint all their opponents as Cultural Marxists.


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## PezLad (Jun 19, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> If it conveys some truth then it cannot be _utterly_ false. The problem with your argument is that you are making a word-concept fallacy by assuming that race only ever means race in a Darwinian sense. For example, the Southern Presbyterian theologian, Thomas Smyth, who was definitely not a Darwinian (and was even looked upon with suspicion by some of his fellow Southerners), wrote a book on _The Unity of the Human Races_ in 1850. Consequently, recognising that there is ultimately one human race as a result of monogenesis is not incongruous with recognising that there are sub-races within that one race. Denying that there is such a thing as races is simply burying one's head in the sand in the face of self-evident facts. None of what I have said here means that any of the races are morally or spiritually superior to one another. Nor does it mean that they always need to be geographically separated or that inter-racial marriage is wrong. But pretending race does not exist is simply playing into the hands of real racists who want to paint all their opponents as Cultural Marxists.


I dont know what you mean by sub race; do you mean a sub set of the whole set? Ie we are all part of a sub race, every people group on planet earth, as sub sets of the "original set" Adam and Eve. I prefer language like ethnicity, or people group. I have no problem acknowledging differences, but i have seen enough dialogue to know that words get misconstrued, misappropriated and ultimately emptied of meaning.

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## EdwardsianBot (Jun 19, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> I would just appreciate to hear especially from my colored Christian brothers and sisters their thoughts on what's going on.
> 
> Blessings.



I'm black, so I'll bite.

*Racism of any kind is sin*, plain and simple. It's rooted in the total depravity of man and cannot be eliminated by human means. Only *the gospel of Jesus Christ* can do that, and I wish it was more propagated in the Church as the answer than "social justice". 
I see myself as "Christian" before seeing myself as "Black" (since I'm united with Jesus along with the Church) 
I don't think racism is much of a problem in this country anymore.
What's seen as "Black Culture" is really *urban culture* and I believe the Democratic party has had a mental hold on blacks in these areas since the '60s, and it has caused many of the issues we see in these areas today. The biggest issue being *fatherlessness in the family *
I didn't listen to Baucham's sermon (although I've planned to), but I do enjoy him from time to time and I agree that what we think of *race* is a social construct and I believe *ethnicity* is a more proper term.
I'm not sure if Chauvin was racist, but I don't believe what he did to Floyd was justified and it was a demonstration of sin (but he deserves prayer none the less)
I think the BLM organization is unbiblical and I don't agree with their platform (although I'm fine with an organization combating police brutality and corruption against_ all people groups_)
I'm fine with the protests, just not the looting
However, Blacks aren't monolithic (as Jo_Was has already pointed out) so my options belong only to me, but I know for a fact other Black Christians share my views (two being Samuel Sey and Darrell B. Harrison)

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## Smeagol (Jun 19, 2020)

EdwardsianBot said:


> I'm black, so I'll bite.
> 
> *Racism of any kind is sin*, plain and simple. It's rooted in the total depravity of man and cannot be eliminated by human means. Only *the gospel of Jesus Christ* can do that, and I wish it was more propagated in the Church as the answer than "social justice".
> I see myself as "Christian" before seeing myself as "Black" (since I'm united with Jesus along with the Church)
> ...


Thank you for being willing to bite, brother!

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## Chad Hutson (Jun 19, 2020)

PezLad said:


> Thomas Sowell, an economist and political commentator has a book called black rednecks and white liberals. He details how black culture is not black at all; it is white. Black culture comes from "crackers" and "rednecks" who they themselves came from certain poor parts of Britain, and in which the slave trade population was concentrated among, such that the slave blacks assimilated this white cracker and redneck culture, and which at later times was identified falsely as a uniquely black culture. As far as victim hood, blacks are victims not in the personal sense, but in the political sense, that their alleged political supporters have only ever hurt. 1960s welfare and onward is what got blacks from low incomes hooked on welfare and hence dependent and also minimum wage laws etc; furthermore "black culture" which is really from rednecks and crackers is absolutely destructive, yet most universities support it, linguistic/cultural diversity.


I love Thomas Sowell! I have that book ordered for weeks and it still hasn't been shipped. I'm chomping at the bit to read it.
Most natives of the Appalachian mountains are direct descendants of indentured servants rounded up in England and Scotland (poor houses, brothels, prisons, orphanages) and brought to America, along with African indentured servants, to work the plantations. They were freed after 7 years or so and relocated themselves as far away from the plantation and authority as they could get, hence the remote mountains. 150 years later, these same families were robbed of their land and sustenance by the likes of the Rockefellers and such wealthy, elite North Eastern corporate types. They ended up working in coal mines, living in coal camps in company houses, paid in script that was redeemable only at the company store. They were "owned" by the coal companies. Southern West Virginia coal miners actually went to war against the coal companies and the National Guard. BTW- they wore red bandanas around their necks to differentiate who was who in battle, hence the term "redneck."
All I'm saying is that injustice knows no skin color. Look up Anthony Johnson. He was the African former indentured servant who sued Virginia to retain ownership of his slaves as property, leading to wholesale chattel slavery in America.

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## Chad Hutson (Jun 19, 2020)

EdwardsianBot said:


> I'm black, so I'll bite.
> 
> *Racism of any kind is sin*, plain and simple. It's rooted in the total depravity of man and cannot be eliminated by human means. Only *the gospel of Jesus Christ* can do that, and I wish it was more propagated in the Church as the answer than "social justice".
> I see myself as "Christian" before seeing myself as "Black" (since I'm united with Jesus along with the Church)
> ...


Yes, my friend. I live in the hills of West Virginia where many people are poor. I have often said that we suffer from the same ailments as the inner city blacks: lack of opportunity, poor life choices, fatherlessness, drugs, resistance to authority figures (see fatherlessness), promiscuity, and poorly trained preachers who preach everything except what is truly needed: repentance and faith. Young black men and young white men of the same circumstances need to hear about personal agency/responsibility. Don't depend on the government; don't blame everyone/everything else for your personal choices; life isn't fair; you have obstacles to overcome; it isn't easy. 
I grieve for the inner city culture as well as the rural poor.

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## alexandermsmith (Jun 19, 2020)

JTB.SDG said:


> When I say dismissive I mean dismissive of those who feel the need to protest. I'm obviously not a fan of the violent sort. But as someone who isn't black, I can't pretend to know how this feels or strikes a person of color. That's all I meant.



Well how do you react to the fact that more unarmed white men are killed each year by police than black despite the fact that black men have a disproportionately high rate of interaction with police (because they commit 50% of violent crime and 90% of interracial crime)? How do you feel when you see video after video of white adults and children being attacked by black people, usually in a pack? Because that happens all the time it just never gets reported in the media. I've yet to see a video where a pack of white men beat up a black person. Do you go out and protest? Do you demand that police are defunded? That blackness is defunded? Do you loot and riot? Do you tear down statues? 

We certainly shouldn't be dismissive of what's happening. We should oppose it. It is a revolution.

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## alexandermsmith (Jun 19, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> Colored meaning what? Black only?



Exactly. Only certain races can speak on certain issues it seems. This is critical race theory and it is destroying the church.

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## alexandermsmith (Jun 19, 2020)

B.L. McDonald said:


> My church is doing a summer series through the Psalms and today my pastor preached a sermon on Psalm 17 and the message in its entirety was about systemic racism in the U.S. with the obvious focus being on George Floyd and the protests of the past week. I've been disappointed that nearly everyone has turned the tragic event that happened into a conversation on racism instead of on police brutality. Derek Chauvin abused his position of authority and killed George Floyd; however, I haven't seen any factual information come out indicating the awful event was racially motivated and yet the discussions have been mostly about racism. Perhaps information will come to light later indicating Chauvin was in fact a racist...who knows. Maybe Tou Thao, the Laotian police officer on the scene was also a racist...who knows. But to make this entirely about racism without proof is slander. Racism is a terrible sin. We shouldn't be quick to accuse people of committing this sin without there being proof. Christians of all people need to be cautious thinkers in this area and not be ruled by emotion.
> 
> I grieve with those who are grieving and I weep with those who are weeping...my heart is heavy.





Stephen L Smith said:


> Friends, I am not really qualified to speak on the situation in the USA but I live in a country that has gained worldwide respect for genuine attempts to bring about racial harmony. I make that statement with some qualification because some of this harmony has been 'politically correct', and my country in general has moved away from its Christian heritage. For example I mentioned this countries evil abortion law which recently went through Parliament.
> 
> When New Zealand was colonized over 200 years ago, there was no doubt Maori land was taken off the Maori, often by Government force. Over the centuries this created a festering sore which Governments of the past 50 years or so have attempted to rectify. Am I saying the Maori were innocent and Europeans were guilty? No! Prior to European settlement Maori were a barbaric people who practiced cannibalism. They had a cultural practice of utu - revenge killing. Although some Europeans did steal Maori land, there is a tremendous history here of Missionaries coming from the United Kingdom to New Zealand with the gospel. Many Maori were soundly converted and left their pagan ways. The missionaries had the spiritual interests of the Maori at heart and treated them kindly.
> 
> ...



The Maori are not indigenous to those islands. They travelled there and ate the people they found.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 19, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Well how do you react to the fact that more unarmed white men are killed each year by police than black despite the fact that black men have a disproportionately high rate of interaction with police (because they commit 50% of violent crime and 90% of interracial crime)? How do you feel when you see video after video of white adults and children being attacked by black people, usually in a pack? Because that happens all the time it just never gets reported in the media. I've yet to see a video where a pack of white men beat up a black person. Do you go out and protest? Do you demand that police are defunded? That blackness is defunded? Do you loot and riot? Do you tear down statues?
> 
> We certainly shouldn't be dismissive of what's happening. We should oppose it. It is a revolution.



Indeed it is a revolution. It is an attempt by Marxists to whip up a race-war for their own nefarious ends. It is also interesting that people leapt to the conclusion that George Floyd's death was racially motivated simply because the officer in question was white. I am old enough to remember when making such assumptions used to be considered racist.

On the issue of the statistics, I am wondering about your 50% figure. According to the official government statistics for 2018, white (non-Hispanic) Americans made up 62.3% of the population (171,493,180 people) and committed 50.2% of the violent crimes. Black Americans made up 12% of the population (33,132,390 people) and committed 21.7% of violent crimes. In terms of numbers, 1,155,670 blacks were listed as offenders in violent crimes, whereas 644,710 were the victims. For whites, there were 2,669,900 offenders, as opposed to 3,957,720 victims. [1] When you say 50% of violent crime, are you using a broader or narrow definition of the term "violent crime" than the compilers of the official statistics are using? Mathematics is not really may thing, so I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick with the statistics. (Please feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.)

Looking at these statistics objectively, however, there is no justification for the narrative that the lives of black Americans do not matter in comparison to those of whites. The important thing to remember, however, is that it both cases it is only a relatively small number of people from both groups who are involved in violent crime. Consequently, there is no factual justification for using divisive rhetoric such as "Black Lives Matter." Instead, we must urge those of all skin colours to live at peace with one another and cease their violence and rebellion.

[1] Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Survey, 2018. See page 12 of this document.


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## Unique Name (Jun 19, 2020)

EdwardsianBot said:


> I'm black, so I'll bite.
> 
> *Racism of any kind is sin*, plain and simple. It's rooted in the total depravity of man and cannot be eliminated by human means. Only *the gospel of Jesus Christ* can do that, and I wish it was more propagated in the Church as the answer than "social justice".
> I see myself as "Christian" before seeing myself as "Black" (since I'm united with Jesus along with the Church)
> ...


Hey there. I agree with what your saying. I think ethnicity isn't even appropriate. I think the one and only term we ought to be using is culture. If we just changed "ethnicity" and "race" out for "CULTURE", and since language is a powerful tool, we would be on the right track towards thinking about so-called "race" correctly.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jun 20, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> The Maori are not indigenous to those islands. They travelled there and ate the people they found.


They are probably the first inhabitants.


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## Pergamum (Jun 20, 2020)

EdwardsianBot said:


> I'm black, so I'll bite.



Do many black people bite? Is this something I need to watch out for?


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## Pergamum (Jun 20, 2020)

Stephen L Smith said:


> The Maori are not indigenous to those islands. They travelled there and ate the people they found.



That is the secret. 

Protip: If you eat all your enemies then there are ZERO aggrieved ancestors to demand reparations later!


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## Stephen L Smith (Jun 20, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> That is the secret.
> 
> Protip: If you eat all your enemies then there are ZERO aggrieved ancestors to demand reparations later!


Pergamum,
Your quote is incorrect. The quote was by Alexander Smith. I actually disagreed with it and responded thus:


Stephen L Smith said:


> They are probably the first inhabitants.


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## Pergamum (Jun 20, 2020)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Pergamum,
> Your quote is incorrect. The quote was by Alexander Smith. I actually disagreed with it and responded thus:



Oh.... but now we will never know who the first inhabitants were! But I bet they were DELICIOUS!


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## alexandermsmith (Jun 20, 2020)

Unique Name said:


> Hey there. I agree with what your saying. I think ethnicity isn't even appropriate. I think the one and only term we ought to be using is culture. If we just changed "ethnicity" and "race" out for "CULTURE", and since language is a powerful tool, we would be on the right track towards thinking about so-called "race" correctly.



That assumes there's no correlation between race and culture. I'm not sure on what one could base such an assumption.


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## JTB.SDG (Jun 20, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> Well how do you react to the fact that more unarmed white men are killed each year by police than black despite the fact that black men have a disproportionately high rate of interaction with police (because they commit 50% of violent crime and 90% of interracial crime)? How do you feel when you see video after video of white adults and children being attacked by black people, usually in a pack? Because that happens all the time it just never gets reported in the media. I've yet to see a video where a pack of white men beat up a black person. Do you go out and protest? Do you demand that police are defunded? That blackness is defunded? Do you loot and riot? Do you tear down statues?
> 
> We certainly shouldn't be dismissive of what's happening. We should oppose it. It is a revolution.


I was talking about the history of slavery in America.


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## Pergamum (Jun 20, 2020)

alexandermsmith said:


> That assumes there's no correlation between race and culture. I'm not sure on what one could base such an assumption.



Take 1 million Ugandans and 1 million Swiss and switch their places, and check back after a decade and see how their locales change.


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