# I'm gonna bet gambling's not a sin



## blhowes (Jul 3, 2008)

I was just curious what you folks thought about gambling. Is it a sin, or like other things, its a sin when done in excess. Is gambling one of those things you think its ok to do in moderation? Do you gamble from time-to-time, whether that be scratch tickets or the casino or the stock market? I'd imagine that a good number would say, like other things, its ok when done in moderation.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 3, 2008)

Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!


Dobson and Mohler say it's a sin because it is bad stewardship and lowers the quality of life (sixth commandment). There is a reformed view that would say it puts God to a foolish test and demonstrates our putting our well being into the realm of chance.


The Bible does not come right out and say that gambling is wrong. In fact it gives examples of God's people gambling.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 3, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/gambling-3408/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/gambling-unbiblical-26401/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/gambling-ethical-22491/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/gambling-13035/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/powerball-340-million-play-not-play-9687/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/texas-hold-em-5737/


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## Kim G (Jul 3, 2008)

I've never gambled. I don't have the money to.  But I think that if people can keep from becoming addicted/spending more than they should, then it's not a sin. 

Appropriate: Instead of spending $30 bucks to go out to eat, I could spend $10 buying food to cook at home and spend $20 gambling. 

Sinful: Instead of spending $500 on my apartment rent, I could spend $500 on gambling.

Just my


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## R Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!
> 
> 
> Dobson and Mohler say it's a sin because it is bad stewardship and lowers the quality of life (sixth commandment). There is a reformed view that would say it puts God to a foolish test and demonstrates our putting our well being into the realm of chance.
> ...



Well, the Bible gives lots of historical narrative examples of people committing sins without the writer actually passing a judgment upon the perpetrators.

But of gambling, I like the analogy that J.G. Vos gave many decades ago. He said that gambling is to theft as dueling is to murder. Even though there is "mutual consent" to an act does not mean that the act now becomes moral. Obviously sexual sin would be an example here.

In other words, if I agreed to duel with someone, I would agree to accept the risk of the negative outcome of the event - in this case, the loss of my life. However, this still does not excuse the other party from having killed me for no justifiable reason _from God's perspective_.

In gambling, I am agreeing to accept the risk of the negative outcome - the loss of my money to another party. Since I did not freely want the other party to have my money in a classic market win-win transaction, I instead appealed to my greed to risk the money God has given to me in a complete "chance" outcome in which its disposition is not known. Again, as with dueling, this does not excuse the other party from taking my money. In God's eyes, this is still considered theft.


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## blhowes (Jul 3, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!


Sorry I won't be able to take you up on this bet. 

Did I say "...bet that a good number would say..."? I'll have to change my original post. What I meant to say was "...imagine that a good number would say...". (and it has nothing to do with me looking at the links Andrew provided  )


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## KMK (Jul 3, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!
> 
> 
> Dobson and Mohler say it's a sin because it is bad stewardship and lowers the quality of life (sixth commandment). There is a reformed view that would say it puts God to a foolish test and demonstrates our putting our well being into the realm of chance.
> ...



So as long as you keep winning it is not a sin! Winning is good stewardship, so, "Just win, Baby!"

I will point out that the Bible never says that gambling for money is something you _should _be doing either.


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## Kim G (Jul 3, 2008)

R Harris said:


> In gambling, I am agreeing to accept the risk of the negative outcome - the loss of my money to another party. Since I did not freely want the other party to have my money in a classic market win-win transaction, I instead appealed to my greed to risk the money God has given to me in a complete "chance" outcome in which its disposition is not known. Again, as with dueling, this does not excuse the other party from taking my money. In God's eyes, this is still considered theft.



I don't think this is entirely true. Am I causing the Chinese buffet down the road to sin when I can't eat my full $10 worth of food? I mean, they really should give me that extra money back since they didn't earn it. What about that great deal I found at Goodwill that cost me only $5. Was I stealing an invisible $25 because it was worth more?

Gambling is not always about the money. I would consider any money I put down to play (i.e. poker) as money donated to have fun, just like spending $75 to get into a Disney theme park. Whether I recoup any of my money is not the issue at that point.

I personally would not put money on the lottery because of the "chance" outcome, but would not have a problem putting a small bit of money on a game that is not completely chance. I'm playing, I'm having fun, I don't care about the recoup of money.


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## Pergamum (Jul 3, 2008)

I would say that it relies upon luck, and also is hard to seek the best for one's neighbor and yet try to win his pot. Cards with family seems different. It seems it might not be per se evil but the events that normal surround it taint it.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 3, 2008)

As a teen I made it one of my unchangeable life principles that I would not gamble and I haven't. I saw too many dumb bets result in heartbreak. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a game for money. In spite of my choice I can't find an explicit command it scripture against gambling.

If God controls the dice then God controls the [email protected] game, right?

Isn't the lottery the poor man's stock market?

Isn't the stock market sophisticated gambling?

I gave 400 dollars to a local farmer for a share of his crop this summer. Isn't that gambling?

I'm not advocating gambling, I'm just playing Benny Hinn's advocate.


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## R Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

Kim G said:


> R Harris said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this is entirely true. Am I causing the Chinese buffet down the road to sin when I can't eat my full $10 worth of food? I mean, they really should give me that extra money back since they didn't earn it. What about that great deal I found at Goodwill that cost me only $5. Was I stealing an invisible $25 because it was worth more?
> ...


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## R Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> As a teen I made it one of my unchangeable life principles that I would not gamble and I haven't. I saw too many dumb bets result in heartbreak. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a game for money. In spite of my choice I can't find an explicit command it scripture against gambling.
> 
> If God controls the dice then God controls the [email protected] game, right?
> 
> ...



The confusion here is with the definition of _risk_. A farmer plants his crops; is he guaranteed a bountiful harvest? No. Weather and other factors, which cannot be predicted, have a role. Other legitimate investments would apply, where you are attempting to exercise your role as a faithful steward of God's resources to take dominion over the earth and engage in win-win transactions where others are also helped and served.

In gambling, no honest, productive effort has occurred; there is no win-win 
transaction. The money or other service has was not used properly.

Let's think about what theft is. It is someone taking your property or using your service _without your consent_.

This is the problem with gambling. If you lose to the other party, it is not really with your honest consent, even though you outwardly agreed to it.


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## Davidius (Jul 3, 2008)

R Harris said:


> Kim G said:
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> > R Harris said:
> ...


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## Kim G (Jul 3, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Nobody's forcing anybody to go into the casino. Everyone comes to the table knowing what's at stake, so I think your statements here are irrelevant at worst, and actually support what she said at best. You're acting as though the "chance" outcome (which is really not "chance") changes the situation entirely, but the fact of the matter is that all parties involved, in all of these cases (including gambling), are "setting a value" and "determining what is appropriate" for themselves. The transaction at the poker table is just as much a "free-market" transaction as the one at Goodwill.



Thanks for saying it better than I could.

What's so ironic about this is that I don't gamble. I don't prefer gambling (except for texas hold'em with my family). I think lottery is stupid. But I don't believe in calling something unequivably "sinful" that the Lord doesn't call sin.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree Kim. Gambling, cigarette smoking and body piercing and tats are all actions I do not like at all. I really do wish there was a clear verse against these things. I would jump at the irrefutable argument against these things but I can't see them in Scripture. I am left to concede that there are very good implicit arguments against these things but that's it. For me, the implicit arguments are good enough.


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## DMcFadden (Jul 3, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> . . . I'm just playing Benny Hinn's advocate.



That's it! That's who you remind me of (other than the hair).


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## R Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

Davidius said:


> R Harris said:
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> > Kim G said:
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## Kim G (Jul 3, 2008)

R Harris said:


> Dueling is murder; gambling is theft.



I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that these statements are the same.

I don't believe that "just because you have consenting adults, you can do whatever you want." Dueling to the death is wrong. HOWEVER, practicing sword-fighting and fencing is not wrong. Your goal is not death, but talent and training. So DUELING is not wrong. Rather, dueling *to the death *or *for vengeance *is wrong.

In the same way, gambling can be an enjoying pasttime like any other money-waster--like paying for cable 24/7 when you only watch a few shows a week. Eh, maybe not the most useful means of your time and money, but not sinful if in moderation. So the act of gambling isn't wrong. But gambling with a *heart of greed *or *cheating to obtain money outside the bounds of the game *is wrong.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 3, 2008)

Dang it Dennis, I knew I should have said 'Robert Tilton'. When I think of the devil, those are the first two that come to mind. Satan looks just like Robert Tilton except that Satan doesn't have horns.



DMcFadden said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > . . . I'm just playing Benny Hinn's advocate.
> ...


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 3, 2008)

money=wealth=own's by God. To use God's resources frivolously and not hold it in solemnity is a sin. My conscience tortures me when I over indulge in good purchases, muchless if I gamble.


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## etexas (Jul 3, 2008)

I will not say "SIN or NOT A SIN: What I WILL say is this:If you work for me, and I give you a Christmas bonus, now rather than "pulling" 10% for the Church, buying something nice for your loving wife, a doll for the daughter, and some sneakers for your fast growing son, you decide to hit a Casino, little B-Jack, your up! You have a few free drinks, after a little liquid courage, you play off tighter runs. End of story? You leave, reeking of cheap Scotch, smoke, and....broke. I will let you make the call here sinful or not? Peace, and Happy Holidays! (And good "luck" explaining what happened to your Christmas Bonus.)


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## Kim G (Jul 3, 2008)

Anton Bruckner said:


> To use God's resources frivolously and not hold it in solemnity is a sin.



The problem with this statement is that everyone agrees that it applies to those things that *they *wouldn't feel right spending money on.

I might say that those who go to the movies every weekend are using God's resources frivolously.

I might say that those who shop at the elite grocers instead of Wal-mart and Sav-Mor are using God's resources frivolously.

I might say that those who spend money taking a vacation are using God's resources frivolously.

I might say those who throw money in a public fountain, buy one ounce of food more than they need, eat dessert, buy tickets at a local fair, etc. are all using God's resources frivolously.

But I can't say that. If I go to the movies once, I have to allow that someone else may have desired to gamble $15 instead of going to the movies. And I can't call that wrong, or a more frivolous use of that money than my use.

And all that to say, that I still don't like gambling.


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## Davidius (Jul 3, 2008)

Amen, Kim.

One problem is that this seems to be an area in which everyone _begins_ the discussion from the standpoint of abuse, instead of normal recreation or moderation. The same people who do that here will, of course, be much more charitable in The Puritan Pub when discussions about the possible health effects of drinking and smoking come up. In that setting they will start from the point of normal recreation and moderation, and castigate those who focus on abuse and from there make their case that any participation is sinful. In the same way that some here think that any use of gambling is a misuse of money, theft, etc., some will say that smoking and drinking (especially smoking) are categorically sinful because of health issues. They'll refer to the passages about our body being a temple, or note that the Catechisms talk about anything that deliberately harms our own health or others' being an infraction against the command not to murder. We'll all find a way to justify our opinion, but I think we should stick to charity and the things that the bible is clear about.


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## jambo (Jul 3, 2008)

Is there any difference between gambling on a horse and investing in the stock market? I see the sin not so much in the action but in the attitdue behind it. 

"I am greedy for more money therefore I will put money on this horse/invest in this company/buy this lottery ticket."

"The money God has given me is not enough therefore I will gamble to get more"

"My children are hungry. If I gamble instead of buying food I might win more money to buy more food"

Sin lies in the greed, lack of faith or the neglect of responsibiltiy. Gambling is a fruit of that sin.


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## KMK (Jul 3, 2008)

I do not see how 'investing' in the stock market is the same as 'gambling'. Buying a stock means you are becoming a part owner of a publicly held corporation. How is becoming a part owner of a corporation, in and of itself, akin to gambling? (Unless you want to say that capitalism itself is gambling)


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## BJClark (Jul 3, 2008)

If someone were to go buy a lottery ticket they are getting something for their money..a ticket..a piece of paper with a few numbers on it..just as if they go to the local super market and use that same dollar to buy a pack of gum, they're getting 'something' in return for their money.

They know that the piece of paper they purchased will probably end up in the trash just like the gum after they are done chewing it..


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## Pilgrim (Jul 3, 2008)

R Harris said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > Your on! 20 bucks says it is a sin!
> ...



This is a helpful post. In the past I have tended to place more emphasis on the greed involved and haven't explored the theft argument as much.


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## staythecourse (Jul 3, 2008)

The whole idea of gambling is weird to me knowing that God knows the casting of lots ahead of time and is sovereign. If I am at the roulette wheel and bet on black 11 and not red 12, I am saying I believe I know the future somehow, something only God knows. It's a waste of time.


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## etexas (Jul 3, 2008)

KMK said:


> I do not see how 'investing' in the stock market is the same as 'gambling'. Buying a stock means you are becoming a part owner of a publically held corporation. How is becoming a part owner of a corporation, in and of itself, akin to gambling? (Unless you want to say that capitalism itself is gambling)


Big Ditto! Ken is correct the comparison is absurd. True Market Investing is WORK those of us who Invest spend a great deal of time and take in a lot of factors before making an Investment. It is in the BEST interest of the Company for Shareholders to come out ahead (as this is one reflection of a corporations health), A Casino? NO, it is NOT in the interest of the Casino for people to win, at some point the house always wins! (They let some people get a few bucks but it is to create an ILLUSION "anyone can be a winner." Pax.


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## gene_mingo (Jul 4, 2008)

What is the motivation for buying a lotto ticket? Is it the desire to have lots of money? I think that playing cards, shooting dice, etc. are not sinful, but when the desire behind these games is to win lots of money, then we are being greedy. The bible talks about greed and the love of money, both are sinful. If your motivation is just to play the game, then why do you need to risk money as part of that? You can play for pretzels, tic tacs or a variety of other non money things and still enjoy the game. The moment you start playing in a casino for money, then I believe the motivation for your playing has changed and if you get pleasure out of trying to win lots of money, then I think you have become greedy.


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## Mathetes (Jul 4, 2008)

Steve Hays has some interesting thoughts on the subject, although they're a bit specific given that they were written in response to something Ben Witherington wrote. Still, worth mulling over:

Triablogue: Ben & Gambling: The Latest Scrooge


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## Anton Bruckner (Jul 4, 2008)

Kim G said:


> The problem with this statement is that everyone agrees that it applies to those things that *they *wouldn't feel right spending money on.
> 
> I might say that those who go to the movies every weekend are using God's resources frivolously.
> 
> ...


taking a vacation, going to the movies etc is not using God's property frivolously. God knows that we need entertainment, relaxation and recreation. These things become a sin when we don't use them for God's glory by intemperately indulging in them. "1 Peter 4:3
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:"

I've seen people wickedly go into debt pursuing vacations, clothes, cars, music, concerts etc.


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