# Praying like Pagans...



## Semper Fidelis (Nov 16, 2006)

> Matthew 6
> 5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
> 
> 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
> ...



I've been reflecting on this verse lately. I attend a Church that is definitely not abiding by the RPW. I wonder if you would agree that there are at least two modern ways in which those that confess Christ pray like Pagans.

1. Praise Songs: A 4 verse song is stretched into 10 minutes. The same words, communicating little content are sung over and over and over. They switch to a capella, bring the music back in, sing it again, and then the last phrase is sung like 3-4 times and very slowly. People get very emotionally intense. Is this really different than saying: "Ommmmmmm" like the Buddhists do to bring oneself into an altered state?

2. Vain repetition in spoken prayer. There are some people that say "Father God" about 4 times in a sentence and probably 50 times in a prayer: "Father God, we thank you, Father God, that you are good to us Father God. Father God, we ask you, Father God, that, Father God, you forgive us, Father God, for our sins, Father God. For we pray this in your Son's most _precious_ name.

That's the end of my main points:

 ON
What is it with Evangelicals who always close prayers in "Your Son's most _Precious_ name"? It's like they're afraid to use the word Jesus!
 OFF


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Nov 16, 2006)

I give credit to Point 1 but I think Point 2 is more a matter of bad prose. It is like they have to keep reminding themselves who they are talking to. At least it keeps them on topic.  Point 1 on the other hand is different. It reminds me, like with what you said, of "Om mani padme hoom" which the Buddhists repeat. There is no reason to keep repeating the same lines other than to mess with your own emotions in a rather pagan manner.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 16, 2006)

What is it with a lot of people who order up their list of give-mes and punctuate it with "in Jesus name Amen" as if that were the period at the end of the sentence?


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## Kevin (Nov 16, 2006)

I have heard so many things over the years, such as those mentioned by Rich & Jay that I am stating to think Calvin was correct, we do need set prayers for public worship.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 16, 2006)

Kevin said:


> I have heard so many things over the years, such as those mentioned by Rich & Jay that I am stating to think Calvin was correct, we do need set prayers for public worship.


According to Dr. Rowland S. Ward this is not correct regarding Calvin:It has been claimed by Charles Baird that Calvin highly approved set forms of prayer from which ministers should not be allowed to vary offering the following translation from Calvin’s Latin letter of 1548 to Lord Somerset…. However, the standard English translation made in 1858 (shortly after Baird wrote) indicates the reference is to the importance of a set Catechism, not to a form of prayers. ​Baird … has been followed by too many who partially cite Baird’s purported quotation of Calvin in a context of prayer rather than catechesis, e.g. D. G. Hart, in his _Recovering Mother Kirk_ (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2003) 26. Similarly, W. D.Maxwell, _A History of Worship in the Church of Scotland_ (London: Oxford University Press, 1955) 72–73, a standard but not always accurate writer, who purports to cite Calvin’s Latin _Opera _but it is in identical words to Baird’s translation. Baird also refers to Bingham’s _Antiquities _but the reference he gives [II, 747] is not relevant to the issue. Perhaps Baird worked from imperfect notes brought back from his period of study in Europe.48​ 48. Ward, “The Directory for Public Worship,” 10, 11 n45. In this instance Winward is relying on an earlier work by Maxwell: Pehr Edwall, Eric Hayman, and William D. Maxwell, Ways of Worship, The Report of a Theological Commission of Faith and Order (London: SCM Press, 1951) 121.​From "The Regulative Principle of Worship:Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999)," by Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D. with Chris Coldwell, _The Confessional Presbyterian _vol. 2 (2006) 106.


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## ChristopherPaul (Nov 16, 2006)

Every night when I put my children to bed, I end by praying a blessing over them straight from 2 Peter 3:18, saying, "May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen; Let it be so."

My kids know this prayer/verse and can repeat it without a problem simply because I pray it everyday. 

Would this be considered vain repetition?


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## reformedman (Nov 16, 2006)

Do you mean for God to hear it? or do you mean for your kids to expect it from you?
If you honestly mean it for prayer, I don't think you'd mind altering it according to your daily need. If you mean for your kids to expect it from you, I think that's very good but then I don't believe you should lead them to believe it's a prayer but instead a wish that you are revealing from you to them. 
I like that idea of reciting that verse to them and I will do the same, but I will let them know that this is how I feel and what I desire for them, I won't repeat it as a daily prayer personally. If I do pray it, I'll probably pray in that manner but not exactly that content.
ie;
I think the Lord's prayer is a good guide for a prayer to alter, I don't believe we should pray it the same way always.

where's a Ryle smiley when you need it>?


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## Kevin (Nov 16, 2006)

ChristopherPaul said:


> Every night when I put my children to bed, I end by praying a blessing over them straight from 2 Peter 3:18, saying, "May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen; Let it be so."
> 
> My kids know this prayer/verse and can repeat it without a problem simply because I pray it everyday.
> 
> Would this be considered vain repetition?



It is repetition; but it is not vain!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 16, 2006)

My pastor just preached on this but his sermon is not yet on Sermon Audio. He made the following point, which I am expanding.

It is striking how even the Biblical examples of godly (non-vain) prayers can be turned into vain prayers. 

Catholics do this with their vain repetition of the "Pater Noster" and "Ave Maria." 

Some groups use the Jesus Prayer. (See Madeline L'Engle's advocacy of this "Christian mantra.")

Some say "that God always answers" the Prayer of Jabez (Bruce Wilkinson, preface to _The Prayer of Jabez: Breaking Through to the Blessed Life_) so it should be repeated often.

Some say "Thank you, Jesus!" so often it becomes a third commandment violation.

Samuel Miller in _Thoughts on Public Prayer_ points out how lawful phrases in prayer, "heaped up," can become a vice rather than a virtue:



> I. In the first place, a very common fault is the over frequent recurrence of favourite words, and set forms of expression, however unexceptionable in themselves. Among these are the constant repetition in every sentence or two, of the names and titles of God; the perpetual recurrence of the modes of expression, "O God!—great God!—our heavenly Father! holy Father!"—"we pray thee"—"we beseech thee"—"we entreat thee to grant," etc., or the excessive use of the interjection Oh! prefixed to almost every sentence. With many, these appear to be mere expletives; with others, they seem to furnish a kind of resting place for the mind, to afford an opportunity for reflecting on what is to follow; and hence they have been called the "setting poles" of preaching and prayer. In all they fill up a space which might be better occupied by coming directly to the object itself prayed for. Besides, this incessant repetition of particular words or phrases, renders them cheap, and, after a time, not merely superfluous, but disgusting—a feeling which ought to be as much as possible banished from every devotional exercise. Nay, there is something in this matter more serious still. If the constant repetition of the name of the Most High, even in prayer, be not "taking the name of the Lord our God in vain," [Exod 20:7; Deut 5:11] it certainly approaches very near to that sin. We are sometimes called to join in prayers in which that holy name occurs in almost every sentence from the beginning to the end.



On the subject of prescribed liturgical prayers, see Brian Schwertley, _Are Liturgies Authorized by Scripture?_


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## alwaysreforming (Nov 16, 2006)

No, Chris, that's not vain repetition.
There's nothing vain about quoting the Word of God.
Also, you're praying a blessing over your children, and using the Word to do it; there couldn't be anything wrong with that. in my opinion

There's another way that Christians these days tend to "babble"...
They think that its vital to mention EVERY single aspect of a situation in order to "get God to move".... Lets say they want God to bless their trip, it would go like this:
"God just please bless the car tomorrow morning... and Lord I just pray that the car starts up and there's no mechanical difficulties with it.... I just pray that it gets moving in a timely manner and that we're able to find our way without getting lost. Lord I just pray ("just" makes a great "filler") that the traffic is good, and that You would protect us from all accidents along the way.... I pray that you keep our health good while we're traveling and that You would help us to remember all items that we may need to have packed the day before and that...... <yada, yada, yada>

They seem to think that if they should perhaps forget a detail, then the Lord isn't responsible if that aspect goes awry. I guess its rationalized under "praying specifically", but all this specificity to me seems like a lack of faith in a Good and Omniscient God to take care of our needs as He knows best.


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## non dignus (Nov 16, 2006)

I remember singing praise song verses over and over. It was very relaxing. I thought it was biblical to sort of get high when I would get refilled with the holy spirit like at a gas station. 

Of course now I get exhilarated when singing confessional hymns. But now my mind is not free-floating trying to sense some abstract spiritual truth; it is in awe with wonder for who He is and what He has done.


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## reformedman (Nov 16, 2006)

alwaysreforming said:


> No, Chris, that's not vain repetition.
> There's nothing vain about quoting the Word of God.
> Also, you're praying a blessing over your children, and using the Word to do it; there couldn't be anything wrong with that. in my opinion.



The biblical misuse of 'vain repetition' was with respect with prayer. It's true that repeating that verse as a blessing toward the children is not vain repetition of a prayer, because it would then not be a prayer, but a blessing.
Vain repetition had to do with repeating a prayer(any prayer) over and over whether in the same session or in future sessions. In this case, if it's meant as a prayer, then it is directed not to people, but to God; and if it is repeated over and over among future sessions, it is vain repetition in my opinion.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 16, 2006)

#1 agreed...7/11 songs...ugh!

#2 I am dreading Thanksgiving for this reason...repetition, dramatic pauses, and drawn out groaning words...all from an anabaptist. I might just have to change a diaper about that time...go ahead everyone, pray with without me, I'll say my own when I get back.


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## py3ak (Nov 16, 2006)

Not all repetitions are vain. I think the verse defines what a vain repetition is: they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Do I intend to compel God's ear by saying things over and over, or really loudly, or whatever? Do I understand that He is the one who hears prayer, and it is not for our righteousness but for His many mercies that we approach Him?


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## Arch2k (Nov 16, 2006)

jaybird0827 said:


> What is it with a lot of people who order up their list of give-mes and punctuate it with "in Jesus name Amen" as if that were the period at the end of the sentence?


 
I don't have a problem with people praying "in Jesus name", but the problem for me is that I believe very few know exactly what it MEANS to do so.



> Q180: What is it to pray in the name of Christ?
> A180: To pray in the name of Christ is, in obedience to his command, and in confidence on his promises, to ask mercy for his sake;[1] not by bare mentioning of his name,[2] but by drawing our encouragement to pray, and our boldness, strength, and hope of acceptance in prayer, from Christ and his mediation.[3]
> 1. John 14:13-14, 16:24; Dan. 9:17
> 2. Matt. 7:21
> ...


 
I often times use the substance of what it means to pray in the name of Christ instead of the explicit phrase simply to remind myself and my family what it means to offer up our prayers by his merits.


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## Augusta (Nov 16, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> 1. Praise Songs: A 4 verse song is stretched into 10 minutes. The same words, communicating little content are sung over and over and over. They switch to a capella, bring the music back in, sing it again, and then the last phrase is sung like 3-4 times and very slowly. People get very emotionally intense. Is this really different than saying: "Ommmmmmm" like the Buddhists do to bring oneself into an altered state?




Point one gives me scary flashbacks.




That is exactly what my church did. They would use the songs and music to manipulate everyones emotions. I couldn't sit through that ever again.


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## turmeric (Nov 16, 2006)

I used to meet with a group from a local Bible college that prayed like this - I got together with them to listen to John Piper, but it just never seemed to work out that way. They kept "being led" to do just what you are describing, with much emotional praying as well. I dubbed them the "Keswick Kids." Honestly this stuff gives me the heebie-jeebies, I can't really say why.


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## jaybird0827 (Nov 16, 2006)

Jeff_Bartel said:


> I don't have a problem with people praying "in Jesus name", but the problem for me is that I believe very few know exactly what it MEANS to do so.
> 
> I often times use the substance of what it means to pray in the name of Christ instead of the explicit phrase simply to remind myself and my family what it means to offer up our prayers by his merits.


 
My point, exactly!


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## Scott (Nov 17, 2006)

Revelation 4 seems to approve of repetition of phrases:


> The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
> “ Holy, holy, holy,[f]
> Lord God Almighty,
> Who was and is and is to come!”


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## JM (Nov 18, 2006)

I thought this verse was about praying to the many local gods the same prayer, which would equal vain repetitions, this is how I always understood this verse. 

"zeus could you give me wealth...
baal could you give me wealth...
so on and so on..."

I could be wrong and often am.

jm


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 18, 2006)

Q178: What is prayer? 
A178: Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God,[1] *in the name of Christ*,[2] by the help of his Spirit;[3] with confession of our sins,[4] and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.[5] 

1. Psa. 62:8
2. John 16:23
3. Rom. 8:26
4. Psa. 32:5-6; Dan. 9:4
5. Phil. 4:6


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## JM (Nov 19, 2006)

Following your lead:

Q116: Why is prayer necessary for Christians?
A116: Because it is the chief part of thankfulness which God requires of us,[1] and because God will give His grace and Holy Spirit only to those who earnestly and without ceasing ask them of Him, and render thanks unto Him for them.[2]

1. Psa. 50:14-15
2. Matt. 7:7-8; 13:12; Luke 11:9-10, 13; Eph. 6:18

Q117: What belongs to such prayer which is acceptable to God and which He will hear?
A117: First, that with our whole heart [1] we call only upon the one true God, who has revealed Himself to us in His Word,[2] for all that He has commanded us to ask of Him;[3] second, that we thoroughly know our need and misery,[4] so as to humble ourselves in the presence of His divine majesty;[5] third, that we be firmly assured [6] that notwithstanding our unworthiness He will, for the sake of Christ our Lord, certainly hear our prayer,[7] as He has promised us in His Word.[8]

1. John 4:22-24
2. Rom. 8:26; I John 5:14
3. Psa. 27:8
4. II Chr. 20:12
5. Psa. 2:10; 34:18; Isa. 66:2
6. Rom. 10:14; James 1:6
7. John 14:13-16; Dan. 9:17-18
8. Matt. 7:8; Psa. 143:1; Luke 18:13

Q118: What has God commanded us to ask of Him?
A118: All things necessary for soul and body,[1] which Christ our Lord comprised in the prayer which He Himself taught us.

1. James 1:17; Matt. 6:33; I Peter 5:7; Phil. 4:6

Q119: What is the Lord's Prayer?
A119: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: for Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.[1]


1. Matt. 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4

*Heidelberg Catechism*


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 19, 2006)

> Q178: What is prayer?
> A178: Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God,[1] in the name of Christ,[2] by the help of his Spirit;[3] with confession of our sins,[4] and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.[5]
> 
> 1. Psa. 62:8
> ...



What evangelicals so often miss is the last part of that. Most evangelical churches I have been a part of our visited over the years completely gloss over or leave out completely the confession of sin and acknowledgment of his mercies.

That is what I think their main issues is. Sin is forgotten and personal growth and achievement is stressed. It's like they think since Jesus died for our sins lets not stress over sin but instead seek what we can get now that we're forgiven.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 19, 2006)

NaphtaliPress said:


> According to Dr. Rowland S. Ward this is not correct regarding Calvin:It has been claimed by Charles Baird that Calvin highly approved set forms of prayer from which ministers should not be allowed to vary offering the following translation from Calvin’s Latin letter of 1548 to Lord Somerset…. However, the standard English translation made in 1858 (shortly after Baird wrote) indicates the reference is to the importance of a set Catechism, not to a form of prayers. ​Baird … has been followed by too many who partially cite Baird’s purported quotation of Calvin in a context of prayer rather than catechesis, e.g. D. G. Hart, in his _Recovering Mother Kirk_ (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2003) 26. Similarly, W. D.Maxwell, _A History of Worship in the Church of Scotland_ (London: Oxford University Press, 1955) 72–73, a standard but not always accurate writer, who purports to cite Calvin’s Latin _Opera _but it is in identical words to Baird’s translation. Baird also refers to Bingham’s _Antiquities _but the reference he gives [II, 747] is not relevant to the issue. Perhaps Baird worked from imperfect notes brought back from his period of study in Europe.48​ 48. Ward, “The Directory for Public Worship,” 10, 11 n45. In this instance Winward is relying on an earlier work by Maxwell: Pehr Edwall, Eric Hayman, and William D. Maxwell, Ways of Worship, The Report of a Theological Commission of Faith and Order (London: SCM Press, 1951) 121.​From "The Regulative Principle of Worship:Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999)," by Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D. with Chris Coldwell, _The Confessional Presbyterian _vol. 2 (2006) 106.




I think I'm going to have to break down and get the 2006 _Confessional Presbyterian_


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 1, 2006)

Pilgrim said:


> I think I'm going to have to break down and get the 2006 _Confessional Presbyterian_


How did I miss this?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 8, 2006)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> My pastor just preached on this but his sermon is not yet on Sermon Audio.



Pastor Steven Dilday on Matt. 6.5-8: Christ's Assault on Hypocritical Religion: Prayer


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 8, 2006)

For sure, repetition _per se_ is not out of order.

See Psalm 136.

Anything positive can be abused. That, I think, I Jesus main point. Mindless religious activity is vain, because it goes no farther than the actor.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 8, 2006)

Contra_Mundum said:


> For sure, repetition _per se_ is not out of order.
> 
> See Psalm 136.
> 
> Anything positive can be abused. That, I think, I Jesus main point. Mindless religious activity is vain, because it goes no farther than the actor.



Amen!

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

(Now I gotta go add that verse to my position paper - I love how this place makes me think! )


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