# secular verses sacred



## Matthew1344 (Sep 13, 2014)

I had a long convo with my friend last night and we got into a long debate about many things...

It started with casual convo and me saying that a reformed Christian school is always the way to go. 

He asked "why?"

I responed that "If you can find a good school that offers the the major you need, I believe that is the place you should go because at a good Christian school you will learn your classes from a Christian worldview, you will have more opportunities to study the bible, and you will have more godly help from your teachers as you study."

This opened up a whole can of words for him. He said alot of points to why he disagreed.

His main ones where:
1- there is no secular and sacred. All things are sacred depending on your mindset, so I can learn just as much about God at a non Christian school as I can a Christian school. I can enroll to be a lawyer at Harvard and study about God on my own there 
or 
go to masters college and study about God and being a lawyer there 
and 
both of those options benefit me equally in following God and knowing him and being a light in the world.

2 if you suck at your job that makes Christ look bad.

To argument 1 I said that I disagree. You will have a greater opportunity to learn about God at masters college.

To number 2 I said I said sucking doesn't make Christ look bad. If you fear God, tremble at his word, and you treasure him above all things, you will be a great witness in your field. And a bible college is a gift from God to help us do that. And you are going to be the most effective in your field for Christ if you are holy, not if you are the most skilled doctor, lawyer, or teacher in your work place. 

What do you guys think? I told him this is my opinion and I it might change later, but where I have landed in my reading of of the bible is that knowing God is top priority and because of that I favor the idea that a good reformed bible school is the way to go.


----------



## JimmyH (Sep 13, 2014)

Benjamin Franklin is reputed to have said, "He who lies down with dogs, will get up with fleas." I think it makes perfect sense that going to a school with a Christian world view would be the better way to go.


----------



## Ephrata (Sep 13, 2014)

Ah, a topic very close to my heart.

While I'll never deny the upfront spiritual advantage of a Christian education, sending every Christian student to a Christian school seems somewhat escapist. College is often a total environment, and sending students to godly colleges may give them an unrealistic picture of what the world as a whole will be like after they graduate. (This, of course, can be somewhat remedied if colleges actively work against hiding their students from the world, but instead give them opportunities to observe and confront its evils and pain with Christ's truth and compassion, shining as young lights in a dark world). 

Furthermore, to withdraw all Christian students from secular schools is to most absolutely abandon a mission field. God will prove Himself faithful wherever His saints go, and if they have the opportunity to serve Him as a sacred vessel at a secular school, He will keep them at His side. He will use them to shine a light to others, too, which is faithful Kingdom work in itself. Yes, it will be difficult, but if one puts Him before all things (grades and job opportunities inclusive) then he will not let them fall or fail, according to His rendering. That being said, if a student or a student's parents determine that it is truly best to go to a specifically Christian school, there is much good in that, too.


----------



## earl40 (Sep 13, 2014)

You go to the best school for the vocation God providentially provides. Some schools teach you how to be a good mechanic and have little or no presence of Christians on staff. So if you want to go to a school that teaches how to turn a screwdriver go to the best school that teaches that skill. Of course I hope they also teach to fix only what is broke.  Though officially I have rarely run across such schools that teach how to steal because I have found all of us already are professionals at such from birth and need no schooling.


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> 2 if you suck at your job that makes Christ look bad.




Moderation

Please avoid offensive language. Maybe you don't know the origin or etymology of this term, but some of our members do. 

I know, times change, language devolves on forums, but we expect a medium level of polite decorum here.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Sep 13, 2014)

Sorry! I wasnt trying to offend.

those where his exact words though. I should have put them in quotations. Or is that still not allowed?


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> those where his exact words though. I should have put them in quotations. Or is that still not allowed?



Just paraphrase the gist of such conversations. I don't think we'd like to see direct quotes of a lot of conversations that occur among us.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 13, 2014)

Vic, you are such a dear brother and a fine moderator. I winced when I read that thinking "these are words we did not permit our children to use."

But to you, Matt, don't feel bad, you're learning (and seem to have a voracious Reformed appetite) and you are so eager a learner and such an evident disciple of Christ (showing clear love for God and His people) that we overlook such language and don't take personal offense. There are certain popular ways of putting things that that are offensive, even though many, including Christians, use them these days without thinking. 

I always admire your zeal. It is refreshing. And I pray that as you grow in your Reformed understanding, that you will not lose your zeal but let it be tempered by knowledge and wisdom that you may continue to be an ardent (yet more seasoned) disciple. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> But to you, Matt, don't feel bad, you're learning (and seem to have a voracious Reformed appetite) and you are so eager a learner and such an evident disciple of Christ (showing clear love for God and His people) that we overlook such language and don't take personal offense.



Thanks Alan.

And Matt, I have the same feeling about overlooking things I hear. I do it all the time, and I work in a pretty profane environment. I'm just trying to hold something of a line on our discourse here--and I'm not at all sure how hard to hold that line, either. 

I'm not wanting to discourage you asking questions at all.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 13, 2014)

Vic, just so all are clear, I completely applaud this sort of moderating and know that you meant nothing but the very best. You have such a fine touch with these things and I really appreciate it. 

That you do "hold the line" here is one of the reasons that I am willing to comment here (and am unwilling to comment many other places).

Peace,
Alam


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 13, 2014)

To the second point, I would agree that if a professing Christian does their work in a negligent manner, it does reflect poorly upon their profession, their faith, and their Saviour. 

However to the first point, he is right in the sense there are no "sacred vs. secular" vocations. For the believer, any honorable profession is a means whereby he may serve and bring glory to God. But there can be no doubt that such a concept is wholly absent from the secular universities. Their disciplines will not be taught from a biblical perspective, and they will often be taught in opposition to a Christian world-view (especially on the Liberal Arts side of academia). 

However, this does not mean it is never advisable for a Christian to attend a secular school. In fact, for many fields of study (especially on the Science and Engineering side of academia) there are very few Christian Schools that can come close to the academic rigor and the resources available in the bigger secular schools. If a young man wants to go into the field of engineering, he'd likely be better off at Georgia Tech or MIT than in Liberty University's School of Engineering (yes, they have one).

One may object and say, yes but at Liberty or BJU or some other Christian School he could at least study these things in a Christian environment where he could learn the Bible and be spiritually nurtured. But this brings up another matter. Who's responsibility is it to teach the Bible and spiritually nurture college students? The College? Or the Church? I would posit that while these things may take place in some Christian Schools and even under certain campus ministries (e.g. RUF, IVF), it is the responsibility of the Church. If I have a young man that will be going out from under the care of our church in order to pursue a education, regardless of whether the school he plans on attending is Christian or Secular, I want to make it my first concern that he finds a godly Church with godly leadership that he can be spiritually nourished and grow in his understanding of God's word. 

At some point, unless he goes into the ministry, he s going to have to go into the secular work force. And will he only look for employment at "Christian" businesses? Certainly not. Then where will he be nourished in his faith and and find encouragement for being a faithful witness in his secular job? He will find it through the preaching of God's word, observance of the Lord's Supper, close fellowship with other believers and pastoral oversight provided by the local church.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Sep 13, 2014)

I understand exactly your counsel Vic. And I greatly appreciate it. I am here to be sharpened by your guys. I have so much to learn and I appreciate every bit of knowledge counseling or advice.

And Thank you Alan for all the times you have helped me in learning thr bible. I really appreciate it!

And CM I do believe that if you are sluggish and lazy in your working it is dishonorable to the Lord and is a bad reflection of him to the world.

But I also believe if your work hard, honest, live a holy life, and give glory to God in your profession you will be a great witness to the world and the people around you. Look at tebow. He was not the best at what he did (im not even real sure if he plays anymore), but in his career he does make God look great and is a great influence.

In whatever we do we are supposed to glorify God. I think that is done by working hard, fearing God, being humble and holy. And a biblical bible college would certainly help you in this.

And yes I believe the church supposed to grow the Christian. I have been taught it is actually supposed to be the father, unless the father is not present, then the mother. After that then the church. 

But even then I still think it is wise and beneficial to go to a biblical bible school because of the great sources the offer to you to learn and grow in God. I have looked at many different courses and I know that alot of families cannot teach you that kind of course and neither can the church. 

Maybe the church should offer classes like that. I have only gone to one church since I have been a Christian (7 years), so I only know one way of doing church. And this is why I love PB, it helps me get out of my LifePoint bubble and think about why I believe what I believe and why I do the things I do. So this might be one of them. Maybe churches are supposed to have systematic theology, hebrew, greek, philosophy, critical thinking, discipleship, historical theology, OT & NT surveys, Paul's missionary journeys, Apologetics, etc classes. Mine doesn't. Maybe churches are supposed to make this available to people. I think it would be great! But the reality is from what I have been exposed to (which is not alot) is that that is not a reality. So it seems like it would benefit the Christian to be in an environment with so many Christians teachers and ready to learn. 

And I am a little confused when I hear there is no such thing as secular and sacred. I guess it is because I don't understand the terms. But I would call something sacred if it is don't for the Lord. I would call something secular if it is not done for the Lord and is worldly. So being a mechanic can be sacred. You can do that for the Lord. Owning and running an adult movie store, I would call worldly or secular because it cannot be done for the Lord. Am I wrong on therms? It wouldn't surprise me if I am, I have alot to learn. But if my definition is write then some things can be sacred and some things can be secular. 

Thanks for the dialogue guys! I really appreciate it.


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> And I am a little confused when I hear there is no such thing as secular and sacred. I guess it is because I don't understand the terms. But I would call something sacred if it is don't for the Lord. I would call something secular if it is not done for the Lord and is worldly. So being a mechanic can be sacred. You can do that for the Lord. Owning and running an adult movie store, I would call worldly or secular because it cannot be done for the Lord. Am I wrong on therms? It wouldn't surprise me if I am, I have alot to learn. But if my definition is write then some things can be sacred and some things can be secular.



I think you are on the right track on the definitions. Strictly speaking, secular comes from the Latin word saeculum, which means "age" or "generation." In the Latin Christian world it came to mean "the world." 

In the Middle Ages, secular came to mean people who did not belong to a religious order. People in religious orders were considered "sacred." Sacred people, such as priests, had a spritual superiority over normal folks "of the age."

Then Luther came along. As he studied Scripture, he came to the conclusion that this was a false dichotomy. Diligent and devoted work in any lawful trade was just as sacred as work studying Scripture. The Reformers followed this line of thinking. That is why you will see some of us bristle (a bit) at the secular/sacred distinction.

This is not to deny that there is a calling to those who would preach the Gospel. Sacred comes from a Latin word meaning "holy." It has the connotation of being set apart. Those who are called to preach, (called by God and recognized by churches) are set apart for that work. But they are not any more "holy" than a carpenter, oil man, lawyer, or whatever, who trusts Christ and diligently seeks to glorify God in what he does.

(By the way, the adult bookstore operator cannot be holy in the sense above, because his work, by its nature, cannot be devoted to God or lawful in the eyes of God.)

And of course, Scripture speaks of worldy things. Worldly things can be used properly or misused. If our focus and love is set on worldly things that will disappear (they are temporary--which comes from temporal, meaning roughly again "of the age"), then our love is not on the eternal things of God. So there is a proper worldly/spiritual distinction.

But that does not mean that mundane (another word for worldly) things are bad or evil. In our lives on earth, we must do mundane things. So (not wanting to stir up a two kingdom controversy), we who profess Christ are indeed of two kingdoms. We live here on earth because God put us here, but we look ahead to the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

As the writer of Hebrews describes the faithful of old, so it is with us:

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Sep 13, 2014)

> (By the way, the adult bookstore operator cannot be holy in the sense above, because his work, by its nature, cannot be devoted to God or lawful in the eyes of God.)



That was the point I was trying to make. I think there has to be some kind of distinction of world job and sacred job. A world job is done in rebellion to the glory of God and a sacred job is done for the glory of God.

And i really like your input Vic. There is alot to chew on!


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 13, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> I have been taught it is actually supposed to be the father, unless the father is not present, then the mother. After that then the church.



I would gently challenge this notion by saying that the Church and family are two distinct institutions which both have a responsibility for teaching those under their care in the things of God. A father of course has that responsibility but but so do the elders of their church. As the pastor of my church I take personal responsibility for the spiritual condition of every child in our congregation. I also strongly encourage fathers and mothers to be teaching and catechizing their children in the things of God. In this way, the elders of the church and parents in the home complement one another in their distinct roles in the task of leading our children to Christ.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Sep 13, 2014)

I like this ^^^


----------

