# Are there any Erastian state churches today?



## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2022)

Presuming that a generalized working definition of bare bones Erastianism is that the ultimate appeal of church discipline is to the state, are there any true Erastian churches today? I don't know for instance what the Revolution settlement did for the Anglican church; did that power in that church go solely to the bishops or how did church censures work before the modern era apostasy?


----------



## Taylor (May 10, 2022)

Would Vatican City count? I honestly don’t know.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 10, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Presuming that a generalized working definition of bare bones Erastianism is that the ultimate appeal of church discipline is to the state, are there any true Erastian churches today? I don't know for instance what the Revolution settlement did for the Anglican church; did that power in that church go solely to the bishops or how did church censures work before the modern era apostasy?



In America or outside America? The Prime Minister usually chooses the first recommended name, and then he or she forwards that to her majesty.


----------



## Eyedoc84 (May 10, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Would Vatican City count? I honestly don’t know.


They would be the opposite, right? In RCC, the Pope is supreme over the state.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scottish Presbyterian (May 10, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Presuming that a generalized working definition of bare bones Erastianism is that the ultimate appeal of church discipline is to the state, are there any true Erastian churches today? I don't know for instance what the Revolution settlement did for the Anglican church; did that power in that church go solely to the bishops or how did church censures work before the modern era apostasy?


I'm pretty sure the Church of England is still Erastian in the sense you describe, at least officially.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Taylor (May 10, 2022)

Eyedoc84 said:


> They would be the opposite, right? In RCC, the Pope is supreme over the state.


That’s what I’m wondering. Is the pope also a state official? If that’s the case, it still seems Erastian. I don’t see really any practical difference between a head of the state who is also head of the church and a head of the church who is also head of the state.


----------



## SeanPatrickCornell (May 10, 2022)

Taylor said:


> That’s what I’m wondering. Is the pope also a state official? If that’s the case, it still seems Erastian. I don’t see really any practical difference between a head of the state who is also head of the church and a head of the church who is also head of the state.



I guess the question to ask though is, does Vatican City have any citizens that aren't high officials in the Catholic Church? Seems to me that the Vatican is a unique creature.


----------



## MChase (May 10, 2022)

Taylor said:


> That’s what I’m wondering. Is the pope also a state official? If that’s the case, it still seems Erastian. I don’t see really any practical difference between a head of the state who is also head of the church and a head of the church who is also head of the state.



There is a difference between a state excommunicating and the church carrying out a death penalty. Both bad, but different nonetheless.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Taylor (May 10, 2022)

MChase said:


> There is a difference between a state excommunicating and the church carrying out a death penalty. Both bad, but different nonetheless.


What if the head of the state and the church are the same person? Does Erastianism require that the state not be clergy?


----------



## ZackF (May 10, 2022)

In any state where the church is undergoing an investiture contest can be thought of as least partially Erastian. The RCC has CCP appointed bishops.


----------



## Charles Johnson (May 10, 2022)

Taylor said:


> What if the head of the state and the church are the same person? Does Erastianism require that the state not be clergy?


Then it's called Caesaro-papism. Erastianism does indeed require that the state not be the clergy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Tom Hart (May 10, 2022)

The Church of Tuvalu, while perhaps not officially Erastian (they don’t even seem to have a website, so their exact beliefs are difficult to ascertain), is the state church in a country where the government exercises some power over religion.


----------



## Taylor (May 10, 2022)

Charles Johnson said:


> Then it's called Caesaro-papism. Erastianism does indeed require that the state not be the clergy.


Ah, yes. I haven’t heard that term in many years. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


----------

