# PCA in Louisiana



## Calvinbeza (Oct 17, 2015)

I noticed that the PCA has few churches in Louisiana. I heard that some story about Wilkins. Why would he left pca and so many Louisiana churches?


----------



## Edward (Oct 17, 2015)

Short version of a story which played out over a number of years:

Wilkins was a ringleader in the FV movement in the PCA, and pastored what was probably the largest and strongest church in Louisiana Presbytery. The presbytery wouldn't discipline him. The denomination finally gave Louisiana Presbytery the option of either disciplining Wilkins or being expelled from the denomination in toto. When it appeared that the Presbytery would finally act, Wilkins decamped, leaving his friends holding the bag. 

The presbytery was so weakened that it dissolved anyway. SE LA picked up most of the state, MVP took the northeast and north central, and North Texas took the northwest corner. (The individual churches had input into where they ended up. See, generally http://theaquilareport.com/the-pcas...dissolve-churches-to-join-other-presbyteries/ ) I seem to recall that one church didn't remain in the PCA, but I'd need to verify that.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 17, 2015)

I was briefly PCA in La (now ARP). Basically what Edward said. 

Think of it as a Ponzi scheme when Steve left.


----------



## Jake (Oct 17, 2015)

Jacob, did you go to ARP or the church?


----------



## Edward (Oct 17, 2015)

One update - it appears that Southeast Louisiana Presbytery is now Southern Louisiana Presbytery. North Texas Presbytery is still North Texas Presbytery despite its current growth into three states.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 17, 2015)

Jake said:


> Jacob, did you go to ARP or the church?



I went to a local church in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

Wilkins church was in Monroe Louisiana. This was Auburn Avenue Pres. Why the church followed Wilkins, despit its heretical teachings?


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

> Southeast Louisiana Presbytery is now Southern Louisiana Presbytery. North Texas Presbytery is still North Texas Presbytery despite its current growth into three states.



The whole Louisiana state could hve benn one Louisiana Presbytery


----------



## Edward (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> The whole Louisiana state could hve benn one Louisiana Presbytery



In some cases, the practical driver of Presbytery boundaries seems as much cultural and theologically driven as it is by numbers. (Metro Atlanta is split among 3 Presbyteries, for example, and compare the boundary descriptions for NWGa and Metro Atlanta in Cobb county, then map the churches. The hyper-modern Crosspointe was physically in NWGa, but theologically and administratively in MA; Christ in east Marietta is east of the 75/575 line but in NWGa. As a side note, Crosspointe appears to be defunct, as the web link is broken and several review sites show it closed). 

Back to your point - the state highway maps in Louisiana are color coded (or at least they used to be) between the largely Cajun-Catholic south and the largely racially divided-Baptist north and the Florida Parishes. The current splits reflect that. The original split was more along Old South/New South lines. 

As to Wilkins- there has been some passing reference, but perhaps it needs to be spelled out. In addition to the theological differences, one must remember the overlay that he was/is involved in the neo-Confederate movement. Not all neo-Confederates in the PCA are FV, and not all FVers are neo-Confederates, but the two movements met in Wilkins, and that may explain why some of the otherwise theologically broad minded folks in the denomination were able to find common cause with those more theologically conservative against the FV movement. 

Meanwhile, there were those in the denomination who wanted to funnel resources into the pre-Katrina New Orleans for minority outreach/racial reconciliation, etc. Taking the neo-Confederates out of the picture made that easier.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Wilkins church was in Monroe Louisiana. This was Auburn Avenue Pres. Why the church followed Wilkins, despit its heretical teachings?



Why wouldn't they have followed him? He made that church. The sense of "community" is very strong there. If the church new of Wilson's heretical teachings, why wouldn'r they have left/kicked him out earlier?

True, some did leave the church but more joined.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

Sad that Wilkins destroyesd a whole Presbytery in Louisiana. Together the conservative Presbyterians are stronger. I read some articles about this story. Wilkins hoped that numerous churches will follow him out of the PCA, but that did not happen.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

The PCA could not recover till this time no new PCA churches were planted in middle and northern Louisiana.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Part of the problem, as Edward hinted earlier, is that Wilson was also involved with the League of the South. A lot of pastors in La. Presbytery didn't like that but there wasn't much they could do about it. So, when FV came on the screen, that gave them a bigger stick to hit with. Unfortunately, it also meant that a bunch of issues got lumped together. I sat in church meetings when I was part of a La. Presbytery church plant and the elders/pastor would literally identify the following:

League of the South = Federal Vision = strong pastoral personality.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

Could the PCA grow, and planting churches in Northern Louisiana?


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Could the PCA grow, and planting churches in Northern Louisiana?



We tried. A PCA church would have to sponsor a church plant and that failed miserably five years ago. There is a conservative EPC church in Monroe that is thriving. There is a former PCA church in Ruston that is barely staying afloat. There is a baptistic PCA church halfway between Monroe and Mississippi, but it is in a small, rural town and will soon face the demographic problems that rural churches face.

And there is a small but conservative ARP church between Monroe and Ruston.

If someone wanted to start a PCA church in my area (I am leaving aside Shreveport. That is more Texas than Louisiana in some ways) they would have to face the following questions:

1) Why do you think the PCA plant this time will succeed when the one five years ago failed?
2) What do you have to offer that makes you unique?


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

> We tried. A PCA church would have to sponsor a church plant and that failed miserably five years ago.



The Ruston church is still a member of the PCA. What is the name of that baptistic PCA church?

No chance to plant a PCA? I think majority these PCA churches in North LA have less than 100 members. Most of these area are now Mississippi Valley presbytery PCA. First Pres Jackson MS won't support such plants? What about the newly formed Mid-South Church planting Network wich aims to start PCA churches in Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas as well West Tennessee. Jacob have you heard about the network?


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

I see the in Southern LA in New Orleans PCA are thriving. Southern LA Presbytery PCA are planting churches and growing.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > We tried. A PCA church would have to sponsor a church plant and that failed miserably five years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> The Ruston church is still a member of the PCA.



That Ruston church has been in and out of MVP PCA for the past 3 years. They have a very irregular pulpit supply, which is why MVP get them on "watch" for a while. Truth be told, while I know them and love them dearly, they are just too small to support a pastor.



> What is the name of that baptistic PCA church?



Delhi Presbyterian.



> No chance to plant a PCA?



Not really.



> I think majority these PCA churches in North LA have less than 100 members.



The ARP church has 30.
The Ruston church might have around 25.
The EPC church has over 200 hundred.
AAPC has around 300.



> Most of these area are now Mississippi Valley presbytery PCA. First Pres Jackson MS won't support such plants?



Support them with what? None of these churches have a critical mass to get started. The ARP church won't leave the ARP. The Ruston church is too small, and members from the EPC church wouldn't leave anyway.




> What about the newly formed Mid-South Church planting Network wich aims to start PCA churches in Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas as well West Tennessee. Jacob have you heard about the network?



No.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I see the in Southern LA in New Orleans PCA are thriving. Southern LA Presbytery PCA are planting churches and growing.



Southern Louisiana has far, far more people than Northern Louisiana. And they don't have the theological radiation from the Auburn Avenue fallout that we have up here. Even those in Northern Louisiana who oppose Doug Wilson and AAPC still have the "taint" within us.

This is why you really can't say, "Oh I like the good parts of Doug Wilson and Federal Vision." It doesn't work that way.


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 18, 2015)

Let's keep our names straight. Wilkins has morphed into Wilson in the course of this thread.


----------



## Edward (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Southern LA Presbytery PCA are planting churches and growing.



1. There is denominational support for ethnic churches. 
2. The population shifts post Katrina provided dynamic opportunities
3. White flight to the north shore has again provided dynamic opportunities. 

Looking at Baton Rouge, there were 4 PCA churches about 25 years ago. There appear to be 4 now. The Baton Rouge metro area has gone from 528,000 in 1990 to about 820,000 a couple of years ago. Of course, many of the PCUSA churches were conservative, and were released to the EPC, including the large First Presbyterian there. So looking at it, almost all the growth activity has been concentrated in the New Orleans area. 



Calvinbeza said:


> First Pres Jackson MS won't support such plants?



As I've tried to explain on other threads, to plant a church you need 1) People 2) Money and 3) a dynamic growing or static (in numbers, not individuals) population. Large chunks of north Louisiana have been shrinking in population since World War II. So even if First Pres Jackson supplied the money, for the bulk of the area, 1 & 3 are going to be missing. Monroe or West Monroe should be a priority because of the University. But they used to have 1000 people working in a regional State Farm center that went away. And that's just one example. They've lost between 5 and 10 percent of their population in the last 15 years - and that's good for Northeast Louisiana. 

As Jacob noted, there's a strong EPC church in the area. So it isn't like there's a big hole waiting to be filled. 

There used to be an OPC in Northeast Louisiana - I think Oak Grove. I don't see it on the map any more. 



Calvinbeza said:


> Why the church followed Wilkins, despit its heretical teachings?



He'd been teaching them for years at that point. Many of them didn't know any better. Others saw him as a victim of yankee persecution. 

It's not the only example of a church exiting when their popular pastor came under outside fire. See, for example, Cedar Springs in Knoxville, TN which decamped to the EPC when their pastor, came under fire for the role of women in that church. (City Church San Francisco might also fall under this but the circumstances there were somewhat different.)


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

What about Shreveport. It has a growing population, University, and only one PCA church.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

> What about the newly formed Mid-South Church planting Network wich aims to start PCA churches in Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas as well West Tennessee. Jacob have you heard about the network?
> No.



Jacob there is a church planting endevour in Lafayette LA : http://www.kinesfamily.com/about/

If you are interested here is the Facebook page, Hunter Brewer is the ministry coordinator: https://www.facebook.com/midsouthchurchplanting

What do you think about?


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > What about the newly formed Mid-South Church planting Network wich aims to start PCA churches in Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas as well West Tennessee. Jacob have you heard about the network?
> > No.
> 
> 
> ...



It might work. Good luck to them. It is also on the opposite end of the state.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

TylerRay said:


> Let's keep our names straight. Wilkins has morphed into Wilson in the course of this thread.



That's because they are the same thing.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> What about Shreveport. It has a growing population, University, and only one PCA church.



Shreveport could potentially field more churches, but it is closer to Texas than Monroe and I don't know much about Shreveport anyway.


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 18, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> TylerRay said:
> 
> 
> > Let's keep our names straight. Wilkins has morphed into Wilson in the course of this thread.
> ...



To clarify: I wasn't referring to your post from 1:42 in which you explicitly referred to Wilson. There are several places in this thread in which Wilson's name is given for Wilkins's.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

Jacob Is your church in Calhoun La, Calhoun ARP?


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Jacob Is your church in Calhoun La, Calhoun ARP?



Yes. That is the church where my membership is based. Calhoun is a _small_ town.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

> Calhoun is a small town



Yes I know


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 18, 2015)

Jacob You told me that you was PCA in LA. Where? What was the name of the church?


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 18, 2015)

TylerRay said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > TylerRay said:
> ...



I have noticed the same thing.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Jacob You told me that you was PCA in LA. Where? What was the name of the church?



John Knox PCA in Ruston. And I was briefly part of a PCA church plant in Monroe that the Delhi church sponsored. It didn't work out.


----------



## Edward (Oct 18, 2015)

TylerRay said:


> Wilkins has morphed into Wilson in the course of this thread.



Thanks. I went through and fixed my posts where I found that error. If you see it in any other of my posts,


----------



## Edward (Oct 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Jacob there is a church planting endevour in Lafayette LA



Southern Louisiana Presbytery. And deep in Catholic Cajun country. Looks like there are 300 members in PCUSA churches spread across 3 congregations. There is an ARP up the road about 20 or 25 miles in Opelousas. 

It may have been targeted because of UL-L and its 18,000 students. Generally, they won't put in a RUF unless there is a local church to which the students can be directed. 

There is a growing, good sized superregional bank headquartered in Lafayette.


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 18, 2015)

Edward said:


> TylerRay said:
> 
> 
> > Wilkins has morphed into Wilson in the course of this thread.
> ...



It's not a difficult mistake to make. They are both leaders of the FV movement whose names start with "Wil." I've probably made the mistake, too, in another context.

That being said, we here on the Puritanboard get enough flack from FVers and others. It would be a shame to give them more reasons to dismiss us. Plus, careful clarity of meaning is a 9th commandment issue.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 18, 2015)

This has been an interesting convo. 

My two ties to this conversation is that Steve Wilkins used to be the pastor where I now am (when we were PCA, he created toxins here and that was way before FV was a thing, he just has that personality I guess) and a really good friend of mine from seminary is an associate at that big EPC church in Monroe.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> It may have been targeted because of UL-L and its 18,000 students. Generally, they won't put in a RUF unless there is a local church to which the students can be directed.



Edward do you think that this church plant is all about to have RUF in the University? I foud that the PCA had 2 congreagations in Lafayette, Covenant Church in Lafayette, left the PCA and Oaklawn wich also left or dissolved, I don't know exactly.

There was a founding PCA church in Alexandria which departed for EPC, before the Wilkins case. I heard the PCA want to replant in Alexandria, LA.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

Edward you live in Texas. What do you think of the future of the PCA in Northern Louisiana?


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > It may have been targeted because of UL-L and its 18,000 students. Generally, they won't put in a RUF unless there is a local church to which the students can be directed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The PCA Church in Alexandria became EPC partly because the Pastor went from "Covenanter" to "Charismatic."

There is a very small OPC church in Pineville (right across the river).

I am about 100% sure the PCA will not replant in Alexandria, nor could they if they wanted to. I don't think NAPARC churches will plant on other churches' turf.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 19, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > > It may have been targeted because of UL-L and its 18,000 students. Generally, they won't put in a RUF unless there is a local church to which the students can be directed.
> ...



We supposedly have a comity agreement among NAPARC churches that discourage planting on top of other NAPARC churches, but to be frank the PCA is not exactly good about following that.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> I am about 100% sure the PCA will not replant in Alexandria, nor could they if they wanted to.



Jacob that told me one of the member of the Mid-South Church planting Network. They have the intention of planting in Northern Louisiana as well and Alexandria was also selected to have future plants among others.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> We supposedly have a comity agreement among NAPARC churches that discourage planting on top of other NAPARC churches,



Why it is bad to have more conservative Presbyterian church in the same city? I think that is OK to have more NAPARC churches in the same area, city.


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> but to be frank the PCA is not exactly good about following that.



I was going to word it a bit more diplomatically, but I can't disagree with what you said. If it makes you feel any better, I've heard complaints from a PCA church about another PCA church that was planted close by. 



Calvinbeza said:


> Edward do you think that this church plant is all about to have RUF in the University?



I'm not sure I'd say 'all about', but I would suspect that that would be a significant factor. A Southern Baptist item on church planting in Louisiana also listed that as a factor for that area. 

I am not as familiar with Acadiana as I am with Northeast Louisiana and the Florida Parishes. I do think I would have tried to time a church plant in that area for a boom portion of the oil cycle rather than a down portion of the cycle. 



Calvinbeza said:


> What do you think of the future of the PCA in Northern Louisiana?


 Combining the facts that it has never had a strong Presbyterian presence and the lack of organic growth in large portions of the state, it's going to be an uphill battle. And while the PCA is the dominant Presbyterian force in Mississippi, the strongest Presbyterian body in Louisiana at this point is probably the EPC, led by First Presbyterian in Baton Rouge.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

I did not know that the situation in Northern LA is so desperate.Edward what do you think the proposed church planting endevour in North Louisiana by the Mid-South Church Planting Network? Could be successful in Alexandria?A friend of mine said that Monroe and Alexandria are selected as future church planting cities


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

I mean that Monroe and Alexandria are selected as future church planting locations for the PCA


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > I am about 100% sure the PCA will not replant in Alexandria, nor could they if they wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob that told me one of the member of the Mid-South Church planting Network. They have the intention of planting in Northern Louisiana as well and Alexandria was also selected to have future plants among others.



It won't happen. The PCA tried to plant a church in Monroe 5 years ago. It failed with flying colors. I am not sure why it would work in Alexandria since Rapides Parish already has a big EPC Church, a tiny OPC Church, several Reformed Baptist churches.

The NAPARC churches in Louisiana used to be able to bring in Calvinist Baptists. However, since many baptist churches hold to most of TULIP, there isn't reason for Baptists to be visiting OPC/PCA Churches.

Monroe has a big CREC Church, a big EPC church. The outlying communities have a tiny PCA church, and a small ARP church. Plus several Reformed Baptist churches in the area.

Exactly what does a PCA church plant have to offer that these other churches don't offer? To bring it closer to him, would I be morally obligated to leave the church I am at and support the PCA plant? If not, how is this going to work?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > but to be frank the PCA is not exactly good about following that.
> ...



Yes, I could have said it more nicely. 

We have had a couple of situations in our Presbytery with this, one which has almost killed one of our churches in north MS.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> To bring it closer to him, would I be morally obligated to leave the church I am at and support the PCA plant? If not, how is this going to work?



What could ARP offer? Declining rural churches, declining membership, ARP church planting in big cities failed, or had very limited success. The PCA is not a perfect denomination. But PCA ties to evanelize the country, trying to plant churches as well as in Louisiana. Just an example in the 1990s the PCA had 3 congregations now PCA has 22. And yes I know Northern LA is declining etc.

In Chicagoland and in Michigan several RCA churches joining PCA. This Mid-South PCA Network is promising


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

> Just an example in the 1990s the PCA had 3 congregations now PCA has 22.


What or where are you counting? 

In 1997, Louisiana Presbytery had 10 churches, SELa had 9.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

It was just an example in Indiana . In 1990 the PCA has 3 churches now 22, in Indiana.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > To bring it closer to him, would I be morally obligated to leave the church I am at and support the PCA plant? If not, how is this going to work?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While the ARP is not blowing up the statistical charts we are not declining. but have had marginal growth in the past several years. 

Am not sure what you mean by the church plants in cities that have failed.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> While the ARP is not blowing up the statistical,but have had marginal growth in the past several years.



The ARP loosing churches and membership is declining, ARP churches are mostly located in rural declining towns, in these towns churches are declining, the ARP closed several churches and the ARP simply declining.

No other Presbyterian denomination plants so many churches than the PCA. PCA growth is because church planting EPC ECO growing because seceder liberal PCUSA churches, but this growth slowed down.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> Am not sure what you mean by the church plants in cities that have failed.



I am trying to say that PCA PLANTING even if it failed, no other Presbyterian denomination stresses church planting so much. 1973 PCA had 260 churches now almost 2,000. This is not marginal growth than in the ARP this is national growth, including the South


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Oct 19, 2015)

Growth is not so great if it is not good growth. We need more churches fully committed to the Presbyterian faith of the Westminster Confession and Catechisms. I have to say, I am not a fan of these defend the PCA do or die threads. Provide useful information but if these church comparisons continue in this vein I will close these threads as fast as they appear.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

What about a PCA plant in Natchitoches. I know that in this city is an OPC church.


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> What about a PCA plant in Natchitoches. I know that in this city is an OPC church.



Then it sounds like it is pretty well covered for a city of under 20,000. Unless a core group approached NTex Presbytery, I doubt it would be high on the target list. It does have a close to 10k student university. But since there is a reformed church to which students could be directed, arrangements might be worked out where a RUF could be set up even without a local PCA church. I'd try to explore that before I'd jump in with a church planting effort. 

I'll try to explain it another way - there is a stewardship issue. You have limited resources. Are you going to put them where you have a pretty good chance of success, or are you going to put them in high risk situations. While an occasional high risk shot might be appropriate, generally efforts should be made where experience indicates that things are likely to work out.


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...



My comment was not intended as a reproach. I generally tend more toward clarity than diplomacy myself.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> I'll try to explain it another way - there is a stewardship issue. You have limited resources. Are you going to put them where you have a pretty good chance of success, or are you going to put them in high risk situations. While an occasional high risk shot might be appropriate, generally efforts should be made where experience indicates that things are likely to work out.
> Edward



I understand,


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

But let Northern Louisiana without confessional Reformed church?


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> confessional Reformed church?



Depends on what you mean by that.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 19, 2015)

> confessional Reformed church?
> Depends on what you mean by that.



PCA and OPC


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> But let Northern Louisiana without confessional Reformed church?



I hate to say it but sometimes stuff like that has to happen. Wishing that we had the critical mass to make it work in No. La. isn't good enough. We've tried numerous times, most ending in failure. There are some good churches that aren't quite up to PB standards, but they are still good.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

It's kind of like, "If I don't have gas in the car and there isn't a gas station around, my car isn't going anywhere. I wish it would, but it still isn't going to happen."


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > What about a PCA plant in Natchitoches. I know that in this city is an OPC church.
> ...



There is a small but very good OPC church in Nachitoches. At the very best it is bad form for the PCA to move in. But even if it did I am not sure why the PCA plant will succeed when the OPC church is quite small.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > To bring it closer to him, would I be morally obligated to leave the church I am at and support the PCA plant? If not, how is this going to work?
> 
> 
> 
> What could ARP offer?



I live on the other side of the county/parish from the ARP church. It's a 22 minute drive. That's not too long. And the ARP church served my family quite well.



> The PCA is not a perfect denomination. But PCA ties to evanelize the country, trying to plant churches as well as in Louisiana. Just an example in the 1990s the PCA had 3 congregations now PCA has 22. And yes I know Northern LA is declining etc.



The PCA already tried and failed in 2010. I'm not sure why this time would be different. And Southern Louisiana isn't as thriving as we might think. Steve Wilkins had allies in Southern Louisiana who went into the CREC. I doubt there are many churches over 100 people.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

And to risk going all "missional," but to get an idea of the culture(s) in Louisiana: 

You can draw a diagonal line from Shreveport to Baton Rouge (going through Rapides Parish). North of the line is Scotch-Irish, Baptist redneck culture. South of the line is Creole, Cajun, French, Roman Catholic.


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> You can draw a diagonal line from Shreveport to Baton Rouge (going through Rapides Parish). North of the line is Scotch-Irish, Baptist redneck culture. South of the line is Creole, Cajun, French, Roman Catholic.



In the 1991 governor's race, generally north of that line, they voted for the Klansman. South of that line, they voted for the crook. Not saying that everyone shares those values. 

You probably need to extend the line due east from Baton Rouge along the 1-12/1-10 line to Mississippi. 

If I was looking to plant a church in Louisiana, I'd want to study the Hammond/Ponchatoula area. (Not suggesting it would be a good idea - I haven't looked at it - but it does seem worth a look.


----------



## Edward (Oct 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> PCA and OPC



Sometimes the sign by the door isn't the best judge of what you will find inside.


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > PCA and OPC
> ...



Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdnbZUn4Ajc


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > You can draw a diagonal line from Shreveport to Baton Rouge (going through Rapides Parish). North of the line is Scotch-Irish, Baptist redneck culture. South of the line is Creole, Cajun, French, Roman Catholic.
> ...



I remember and it's probably fairly accurate at least then. I do know of several Klan outposts in extreme Northern Louisiana, but they are really far from civilization. (Interesting point of fact: that same area has a HUGE witch coven and the Baptist churches are involved in freemasonry. SOme of my friends where literally ran out of town for exposing the deacon board.)


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 19, 2015)

I'm not quite sure where to begin, but as a native of Alexandria who has also lived in North and South Louisiana and who is personally acquainted with several current and former PCA churches and elders, I guess I'll wade in. I'm basically going to respond to things that jump out at me in the thread. 

1. Why does the PCA have relatively few churches in Louisiana? Compared to the "Old South" strongholds of AL, MS and SC, you had very, very few "First Presbyterian" type churches withdraw from the PCUS in Louisiana. Almost all of the churches from the former Louisiana Presbytery as well as the Southeast (now Southern) Louisiana Presbytery were planted in 1974 or afterward. Many of these churches have remained small, with some continually struggling to survive and pay the pastor. This situation is not unique to Louisiana, although there are certainly some unique challenges in parts of LA. 

2. I won't be offended if someone wants to rebut me, including any of the principals involved. (I also won't be offended if the admins find something improper about my statements here.) My apologies in advance for any misunderstanding on my part. But from what I've gathered over the years, I largely chalk up the eventual dissolution of the Louisiana Presbytery to the maneuverings of two men--Bob Vincent and Steve Wilkins. You can read about Grace Presbyterian Church in Alexandria (formerly Jackson St. Presbyterian) leaving the PCA for the EPC here. As he notes on his website, Bob (who has just recently retired) is a card carrying member of the charismatic movement. He was a "Reformed Charismatic" about 20 years before it was cool. I asked him 11 or 12 years ago why they left for the EPC, assuming it was related to charismaticism. He said the #1 issue was the League of the South. He is certainly opposed to Bahnsen or Rushdoony type theonomy, but it seems that the prominence of the League of the South at Auburn Ave. and elsewhere by the mid 90's was the last straw for him and the church he pastored. His comments about theonomy in the Presbyterian News article should be read in that light. (A quick perusal of his website will reveal why the League was such a deal breaker for him.) It seems that previously there was sort of a deal, whether stated or unstated, that he wouldn't oppose theonomists coming into the Presbytery so long as no one opposed his charismaticism. More and more theonomists came in. (EDIT: It may be that there was less of a deal than simply a sense on his part that they should not or could not be excluded since the GA had not done that.) After Grace Church left, the theonomists (who soon became FVers) were basically left in charge and were only dislodged by the SJC, with 2 or 3 churches leaving for the CREC and the LaP eventually dissolving after that. I guess it would be more accurate to say that they were more or less already dominant by 1997. But had Bob and Grace Church remained in the Presbytery, it goes without saying that the anti-FV forces would have been in a stronger position. I'm pretty sure that Grace was either the #1 or #2 largest congregation in that Presbytery at that time. (I'll add that I'm not necessarily equating theonomy with FV. Some of the early whistleblowers were theonomic or theocratic, such as the RPCUS and the late F.N. Lee.) 

3. Some remnants of the aforementioned Opelousas church mentioned in the Presbyterian News article later reunited and affiliated with the ARP denomination, reportedly because some didn't want to be in the PCA and because some didn't want to be in the EPC. I'm pretty sure that the ARP congregation in Calhoun was started by some folks who left Auburn Avenue when it was still in the PCA, but Jacob can correct me if I'm wrong. 

4. Southern Louisiana Presbytery "thriving?" Compared to what? Wyoming? South Dakota? Maine? If there are 3,000 members in the whole Presbytery, I'd be surprised. My guess is that it is probably much less than that. With the influx of former PCUSA congregations, the EPC is much larger in that area now even though the EPC had little presence in the area 10-15 years ago. (I hasten to add that I don't necessarily equate numbers with thriving, but I think y'all get the point.) 

5. If I'm not mistaken, there was only one Louisiana Presbytery at one time. From what I've gathered, certain men from Southeast Louisiana (maybe among others) tired of the long trek to Alexandria (and maybe elsewhere at times) for Presbytery meetings (2-3 1/2 hours for some, if not longer at the time) and requested that it be split into 2 Presbyteries. 

6. I've probably mentioned this here before, but I think it bears repeating. I think part of the reduced growth in the PCA over the past 10-15 years is probably due to the continued resurgence of Calvinism in the Southern Baptist Convention. (Before that, many Baptists who became Calvinistic felt more of an impetus to leave since a higher percentage of churches and pastors were adamantly opposed to any manifestation of Calvinism.) My guess is that this may explain in part why there isn't more of a PCA presence in Shreveport. A quick look at the Founders website will reveal that there are a good many works in the Shreveport-Bossier area, including what is basically one of the "flagship" Founders congregations. The area also hosts a regional Founders conference (Ark-La-Tex.) I don't know how big the Shreveport PCA church is, but if it is 200+, I'd be surprised (and pleasantly so.) They appear to have jettisoned the building they used to have within the past 10 years and are meeting at a local college in a different part of town. (Churches meeting that description are often under 100.) While Baton Rouge is home to several PCA churches (at least one of which appears to be quite small) it is also home to a good many Calvinistic Baptist churches. 

7. Edward's and Jacob's statements about geography are generally correct. The helpful highway map Edward refers to shows that "South" Louisiana isn't as clear cut as one might think, with "North Louisiana" including southern parishes like Beauregard Parish and some others along that line. Also, the "Florida Parishes" that are east of the Miss. River, North of Lake Pontchartrain and West of the Pearl River are in "South Louisiana" but are culturally more akin to North Louisiana. (Technically, this includes Baton Rouge.) These were not even part of the Louisiana Purchase. I don't know that there are any dry towns there such as can be found in the North, but it is much more "redneck" than one would think given its location. There are more Roman Catholics in one or two of them now compared to 50 years ago due to white flight starting in the 60s as well as migration northward from heavily Catholic parishes after Hurricane Katrina. 

7.1 I doubt that any opposition to funneling money into New Orleans had much, if anything, to do with Wilkins et al since that was a different Presbytery, unless you mean opposing that at more of a national level. There have been CREC/FV types in the Southeast LA Presbytery as well, but most of the ones I have known of in recent years have tended to be Assoc. Pastors who eventually moved on to ministry in the CREC in other states. One former Sr. Pastor is now ministering in the Reformed Episcopal Church, which some say has been heavily corrupted by an influx of FV/paedocommunion/Romanizing types. It was previously low-church and decidedly Protestant and evangelical. 

8. Catholic South Louisiana is well known. But there is a very significant number of Oneness Pentecostals in Louisiana as well. In some rural areas in North Louisiana, their congregations (including those named "Apostolic") appear to outnumber Baptist churches. Unlike most other places, when you say "Pentecostal" in Louisiana, most people think you are referring to Oneness people and not Trinitarian denominations like the Assemblies of God. In general, pentecostalism and charismaticism are more prominent in LA than in many other states. It is safe to say that there is a lot of "bad religion" in Louisiana. A simple teaching of justification by faith alone is utterly foreign to many, much less the doctrines of grace or covenantal infant baptism. 

9. A little over 10 years ago, I was told by someone in the OPC congregation (to which a couple of us posting here used to belong) that there was a desire on the part of the LA Presbytery (and I suppose perhaps a small handful of local people) to plant a PCA congregation in the Alexandria area after Grace left for the EPC. (This would have been in the late 90's or early 00's.) I was told that the OPC congregation cried foul and that it was dropped. I have a hard time seeing that succeed anyway, then or now. As with other situations noted earlier, it would take a VERY dynamic and evangelistic pastor and core group. Who would the core group be? I submit that it does not currently exist. When the Louisiana Presbytery still existed, the OPC congregation in Pineville used to host the meetings. (I think this was probably after the proposed and abandoned talk of a PCA plant.) They probably could have easily joined the PCA by then, but remained loyal to the OPC, which took them in when they split from Jackson St/Grace over charismaticism, etc. in the mid 1980's. 

10. Hammond/Ponchatoula was/is a longtime pipe dream of a couple of TE's in that Presbytery, one of whom went home to be with the Lord recently. This was due to growth in the area, including the growth at the local university in recent years. But I think there is close to zero demand, if any. I don't know of anyone from the general area who attends a PCA congregation in either BR or St. Tammany. (A pastor of one of the EPC congregations in St Tammany Parish told me that they had a few people from the area that attend his congregation, but I think that was a couple of years ago.) I once saw the Hammond area noted on a proposed CREC church plant target or wish list, so maybe there is someone there of that persuasion. Regardless, as has been noted, it takes more than putting a pin on what appears to be a strategic point on a map. There are also at least 2-3 Calvinistic Baptist works in the general area.

11. I'm not aware of an OPC work in Oak Grove, (I assume you mean in W. Carroll Parish.) That is a very rural and fairly isolated area. If there was ever anything up there, it was before I started paying attention in the early 00's. As far as I know, the Pineville church was the first OPC congregation in the state, with Natchitoches starting out as a mission work of theirs. There was an OPC mission work in New Orleans that folded prior to Hurricane Katrina. There was talk of trying again more recently, but I don't think it came to anything.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

Thanks Pilgrim it was very useful information. 



> Hammond/Ponchatoula was/is a longtime pipe dream of a couple of TE's in that Presbytery, one of whom went home to be with the Lord recently. This was due to growth in the area, including the growth at the local university in recent years.



It has an EPC but is very small has about 35-40 members. So I think also that it could probably have a PCA plant.

Pilgrim Do you know spmething about the Mid-South Church Planting Network The network wants to plant in MS, LA, West TN and AR. The first church plant is in Lafayette LA.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Thanks Pilgrim it was very useful information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hammond does not have an EPC congregation. It does have a liberal PCUSA congregation, as does Ponchatoula. The closest EPC congregation is about 30 miles away, in Covington. I'm guessing you must be thinking of that, although it may have more than 30-40 members. (The EPC in Mandeville is former PCUSA and is much larger.) A lot of people drive that far to go to church, but it's not the same community and is in a different parish. There a PCA congregation in Covington that is smaller than the EPC congregation. That area is much bigger than Hammond despite what the official population of the cities may indicate. Much of St Tammany Parish is unincorporated. Hammond is sort of a quaint little city that happens to have a university. Many of the students are commuters from surrounding areas. 

I've heard about that church planting network but don't know much about it. Going into Lafayette first makes sense because it is the largest metro area in the state without a Reformed (i.e. paedobaptist) church. The previous church there ended up under FV leadership. (I don't see it listed on the CREC site so I'm guessing that it shut down at some point.) It was called Oaklawn and as well as some other name at some point. Other efforts may have failed at various times, but I'm not sure. 

It may be that some people from Lafayette have been or are attending the Opelousas (ARP) church, which is a fairly easy drive up the interstate. I was told that prior to the split of the old PCA there, they had a very evangelistic pastor who saw a good many converted under his ministry. (i think this would have been back in the 70's and 80's.) Relying on sheep stealing and transfer growth won't work in areas like these that have relatively few non-charismatic evangelicals to begin with. (Much "successful" church planting and church growth largely involves enticing people away from other churches.)

There is also no EPC in the Lafayette area. Perhaps that was another consideration. I submit that the presence of an established EPC congregation in an area probably makes it less likely that a PCA plant would succeed, not more. EPC congregations in this area tend to be more Reformed than what I've gathered is the case in other Presbyteries in other parts of the country. Some of them don't seem to be much different than PCA congregations that are more broadly evangelical than they are strictly Reformed. What's the "pitch" in those cases when many PCA congregations are hardly any more interested in the RPW or the 2nd and 4th Commandments than EPC churches are? "Come join us so that you aren't subject to women ruling elders at the Presbytery and GA level?"  Prior to the influx of former PCUSA congregations, there were some EPC Presbyteries that didn't have any women elders at all, if I'm not mistaken. Even in some former PCUSA congregations, the trend seems to be away from them now that some are reading some more conservative Reformed complementarian material. 

Consider also that with the PCUSA's continued slide into apostasy, the Presbyterian "brand" is at an all time low in culturally conservative areas like these that have had very little, if any, conservative Reformed presence in the past half century or more. That's an additional hurdle. Also, most of the big name authors and leaders in broader Calvinistic evangelicalism today are baptistic. That wasn't the case 20-30 years ago when the more popular ones were Sproul, Boice, Schaeffer, Kennedy, etc. Now it is Piper, Mohler, Dever, MacArthur, Platt, etc. Sure, there is Keller, but a lot of his fans are baptistic and tend to stay that way. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

> There is also no EPC in the Lafayette area. Perhaps that was another consideration. I submit that the presence of an established EPC congregation in an area probably makes it less likely that a PCA plant would succeed, not more.



Chris 
The mid-South PCA Church Planting Network on web https://www.facebook.com/midsouthchurchplanting

PCA church plant forming in Lafayette LA(Josh Kines the planter) http://www.kinesfamily.com/#home

A friend of mine who is a member of this network told me that there are other locations in Louisiana where the Network have the intention to plant. The Monroe, and Alexandria area was also selected in the North.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

The PCA want to gain a foothold in Louisiana.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

And Redeemer PCA in New Orleans has a Bible study, a group in Mid-City New Orleans, what could be develop a church plant


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Oct 20, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> I'm not quite sure where to begin, but as a native of Alexandria who has also lived in North and South Louisiana and who is personally acquainted with several current and former PCA churches and elders, I guess I'll wade in. I'm basically going to respond to things that jump out at me in the thread.



Chris,

I appreciate your post. Very informative.

If there's one thing I've learned over the years it's that a "macro lens" might help explain demographics or why things are a certain way in areas but the reality is that local congregations succeed or fail for reasons sometime unrelated to macro forces. You can kind of see how things play out even with some of the things you write about Wilkins and the effect of FV, etc.

If any Reformed Church is going to grow it has to grow beyond those who are already convincingly Reformed. We get people that visit us because they were looking for the PCA but that's not enough to grow in a healthy way. We also get people who drive 45 minutes past 2-3 PCA or OPC Churches to attend our Church (that family ended up leaving after a few months). What you post points out why, in another thread, I called Wilson (and folks like him) a disturber of the purity and peace of the Church. A lot of these FV/CREC/Reformed Catholics are like the isle of misfit toys. On Bizarro's planet HTREA, where the shape of the world is cubic, they can believe and practice all manner of strange things and call themselves Reformed. Let's face it, in any given community the number of people that already self-identify as Reformed is going to be small and so if you're trying to plant a Church in that area then you might get visited by someone whose thinking has been confused by these charismatic (I mean that in the sense of winsome) people who call themselves Reformed or Presbyterian. A small plant trying to grow into a Church is going to struggle if "core" Reformed folk are trying to pull a Church into a certain direction. I've seen small Churches that are so busy in-fighting about what kind of distinctives they're going to have that they don't really have time to think about how they're going to be a hospitable or welcoming place for those that come in and are just looking for a Church that preaches the Gospel. While I'm picking on FV, I will say that a rabid theonomist or a "Lee Irons-like" Klinean can be just as disruptive so it's not just one flavor.

I guess what I'm saying is that the macro forces might tell us something but ministry at the local level is tough even when you're not dealing with the aftermath of an imploded Presbytery. The fact that there's a lot of baggage makes what is otherwise hard seem impossible if we didn't believe that God is Sovereign. I'll say this: That the men that rebuild there will have to steadfast and extraordinary men willing to labor long and hard at a simple ministry. It's very lonely being a small Church even when you have sister Churches that are doing well in a 30 mile radius. I can't imagine how lonely it would be to plant a flag in a remote area.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> The PCA want to gain a foothold in Louisiana.



And I want the CREC to be brought to justice. I would love to see a strong PCA presence. Just don't know how it can happen right now. 

1) They can't tread on other's turf.
2) They have to be able to offer something the others' aren't in a place that the others are not.
3) This means that they will have to be in a dynamic, growing area which doesn't have other NAPARC churches. That rules out out the entirety of North Louisiana.

And quite possibly

4) Be willing to fund a pastor's salary independent of the congregation, otherwise he will have to be bi-vocational, which is always a huge impediment in church plants.


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 20, 2015)

Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> 11. I'm not aware of an OPC work in Oak Grove, (I assume you mean in W. Carroll Parish.)



Yes. That would have been in the mid 1980s. I may have some of the details wrong, as it's been some time since I had the casual conversation, probably outside some northeast Louisiana courtroom. 



Pilgrim said:


> 7.1 I doubt that any opposition to funneling money into New Orleans had much, if anything, to do with Wilkins et al since that was a different Presbytery, unless you mean opposing that at more of a national level.



Southeast Louisiana Presbytery came into being at the end of 1992. Desire Street Ministries kicked off in 1990. Wilkins came to Auburn Avenue in 1989. So the timing looks right for my theory. And, it wasn't a different Presbytery when the water started to boil.


I do want to say that I agree with your post (with those two minor quibbles, and I think you, Jacob and I are basically on the same page, with you all having a more current perspective.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

> Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.



In New Orleans and as wellas in noerthern and Middle Louisiana there is no one OPC church. 

PCA
St Roch Community Church- multy ethnic: http://www.strochcc.org
Redeemer Presbyterian - http://www.redeemernola.com
St Preter Presbyterian a church plant in the mid city area
Grace PCA in Metairie LA
ALL OF THEM ADHERE TO WESTMINSTER CONFESSION


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I can't imagine how lonely it would be to plant a flag in a remote area.



I wonder if the denomination should treat certain areas of the US as foreign mission fields, rather than trying to import what has worked for the growing suburban areas.


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not looking to debate what it means to adhere to the Westminster Confessions and get us off topic, but I (as well as many others here) find the PCA's approach to the 2nd and 4th commandments highly problematic and see many PCA congregations as more evangelical than Reformed. That said, I'm certainly not intending to "unchurch" them and I'm aware that there is a diversity of approaches within the denomination. It's clear I'm not going to find an exclusive psalmody church in the area, but I wondered if there is at least a church to the right of the Redeemer Pres NYC model in the Reformed spectrum there and hopefully one that is at least inclusive psalmodist.


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

TheOldCourse said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.



I'm not sure you'll get any better in that area than this statement from Three Rivers:

"We are committed to exist as a confessional church. The Bible warns us that the church will be under attack by those who will twist the truth and seek to deceive believers (Acts 20:29-30, 2 Cor. 11:3-4, Gal. 1:6-9, Eph. 5:6, Phil. 3:18-19, 1 Tim. 1:3-7, 1 Tim. 6:3-5). * Our church leaders commit to teach and preach doctrines that are consistent with the Biblical standards set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF) and its Larger and Shorter Catechisms.* In this way, members of the local, visible body of Christ are better protected from the threats of false and misleading doctrines that so often infiltrate the Christian church.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

> I'm not looking to debate what it means to adhere to the Westminster Confessions and get us off topic, but I (as well as many others here) find the PCA's approach to the 2nd and 4th commandments highly problematic and see many PCA congregations as more evangelical than Reformed. That said, I'm certainly not intending to "unchurch" them and I'm aware that there is a diversity of approaches within the denomination. It's clear I'm not going to find an exclusive psalmody church in the area, but I wondered if there is at least a church to the right of the Redeemer Pres NYC model in the Reformed spectrum there.



There are liberal PC(USA) and liberal-charismatic EPC churches as well.


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > I'm not looking to debate what it means to adhere to the Westminster Confessions and get us off topic, but I (as well as many others here) find the PCA's approach to the 2nd and 4th commandments highly problematic and see many PCA congregations as more evangelical than Reformed. That said, I'm certainly not intending to "unchurch" them and I'm aware that there is a diversity of approaches within the denomination. It's clear I'm not going to find an exclusive psalmody church in the area, but I wondered if there is at least a church to the right of the Redeemer Pres NYC model in the Reformed spectrum there.
> 
> 
> 
> There are liberal PC(USA) and liberal-charismatic EPC churches as well.



By "to the right" I mean more conservative (or better, more strictly confessional). OPC, ARP, RPCNA, trending in that direction. Within the PCA, those Brian Chapell would call the "traditionalists".

Edward, thanks. That is a much stronger statement than some I read.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

Grace Presbyterian PCA in Metairie LA a suburb of New Orleans Statement http://gpcmet.com/about/what-we-believe/

The Westminster Confession of Faith contains the meat and marrow of Presbyterian theology. To teach our faith to the least and the greatest of believers, we believe the catechism is an invaluable tool. Go here for part one of the catechism, part two of the catechism, and also a shorter version of the catechism. The Book of Church Order is also a tool in the governing and leading our congregational worship.

from Grace PCA What we bekieve


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

TheOldCourse said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.



Check out Trinity Presbyterian (PCA) in Slidell. I don't think they have much of a web presence. At least they didn't the last time I checked. But I'm sure that the pastor, Todd Smith, would be happy to talk to you about your questions and concerns. He affirms the confessional teaching on those issues and they sing Psalms as well as hymns. 


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 20, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> TheOldCourse said:
> 
> 
> > Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.
> ...



Thanks Chris, the fact that their description of their worship is almost entirely a quote of WCF 21.1 is an encouraging sign! Finding a strong confessional church is definitely a major factor in my potential relocation decisions so I really appreciate everyone's input.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Oct 20, 2015)

I wouldn't go just by that; give the possible choices the nth degree of questioning. There are very few PCA churches that are strictly confessional on those two commandments. Hate to see you move and then find out you will receive no support on what you at least agree is part of the morality of the commandments.


TheOldCourse said:


> Thanks Chris, the fact that their description of their worship is almost entirely a quote of WCF 21.1 is an encouraging sign! Finding a strong confessional church is definitely a major factor in my potential relocation decisions so I really appreciate everyone's input.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

For a number of reasons, I'm not going to get into an extensive back and forth about the churches that have been mentioned. But I'll say generally that a statement about confessional subscription on a website tells you little. One must dig deeper than that. Remember that subscription in the PCA for many equates to "system subscription." So you'll have people "affirm" the Confession while disagreeing on the 2nd and 4th commandments. It is not too hard to find those who take an exception due to their affirmation of paedocommunion either since their brethren have not determined that it is inimical to the system of Doctrine contained in the standards. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I wouldn't go just by that; give the possible choices the nth degree of questioning. There are very few PCA churches that are strictly confessional on those two commandments. Hate to see you move and then find out you will receive no support on what you at least agree is part of the morality of the commandments.
> 
> 
> TheOldCourse said:
> ...


I think he will like the answers better there than elsewhere in the GNO area. Under the current leadership, (a GPTS grad) that church basically resembles the typical OPC church when it comes to worship. But "buyer beware" to be sure. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 20, 2015)

Oh I agree, but I think it does mean something when someone puts the confession (and explicit statements on the RPW) front and center on their website vs. hiding it and their Presbyterian identity in the small print or leaving it off completely. A few NOLA PCA church websites really turned me off so the couple that were brought up were a nice contrast. As I said, it's an encouraging sign but I would definitely discuss things with the pastor before making any such decisions.

I'm not expecting to be able to find a Covenanter church in the area, but if I can find one that at least doesn't crassly flout those commandments I will be reasonably content--especially since my time there would likely only be for a couple of years.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

> I'm not expecting to be able to find a Covenanter church in the area, but if I can find one that at least doesn't crassly flout those commandments I will be reasonably content--especially since my time there would likely only be for a couple of years.



Why just OPC?


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

OK Louisiana is not one of the strongholds of the Presbyterian churches. But which cities are target places for church plants? What do you think. Suggest cities were Presbyterian church planting could be successful.


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Suggest cities were Presbyterian church planting could be successful.



Leesville, when the De Ridder church gets strong enough to spin off a plant. Suburban Shreveport? Hammond has been discussed above. Another around Lake Charles when oil gets strong again, and perhaps Houma at the same time? There's a fairly new plant in Baton Rouge; but generally that area should probably be ceded to the EPC.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

> There's a fairly new plant in Baton Rouge;



What is the name of this new church plant?


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> What is the name of this new church plant?



Fairly new, not new. It's been around for a few years now. South Baton Rouge. 

I mentioned the Baptists upthread. Here is a SB take on church planting targets in Louisiana, for those who haven't seen it:

http://lanecorley.com/2015/08/03/top-5-places-to-plant-a-church-in-louisiana-sendnorthamerica/


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

I've seen it before.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 20, 2015)

I thought South Baton Rouge PCA is a fairly large congregation, it has large facility.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your last line gets at why we're having this back and forth here and why you don't appear to be grasping what several of us are saying. It appears that you don't quite understand what some of us veteran members mean by "adhere to the Westminster Confession." 

Do you know the regulative principle of worship is? Do you know what we mean by the confessional teaching on the 2nd and 4th commandments? In other words, do you think it is ok to have so-called "pictures of Christ?" Do you think that a pastor who asks visitors out to eat (i.e. at a restaurant) directly after morning services fully adheres to the Westminster Standards? Does a man who takes exception to the Westminster Standards because he believes in paedocommunion "adhere" to the confession? Does a man who disagrees with the Westminster Standards' prohibition of marrying Romanists "adhere" to the confession? (None of these examples are hypothetical.) 

I wish the Mid-South planting network well. There is certainly a need for gospel preaching churches in the Mid-South area. But I can say that I've visited PCA and EPC congregations in most of the states that they're aiming at, including at least one of their plants. I can tell you that to even the somewhat knowledgeable visitor who stumbles into one of those churches on a Sunday morning, there won't appear to be a dime's worth of difference between some of the EPC churches and the PCA ones unless the EPC church in question has women elders, which some of them don't. (In some cases you could perhaps dig real deep and find that there might be a dollar's difference, but that doesn't buy much these days either.) That's why just beating the drum for more PCA church plants the way you are doing generally isn't going to work. That's also why, as I noted earlier, I think it is a good idea for them to go into Lafayette first since there is no other evangelical Presbyterian work there. 

It is not clear that you understand that there is no real PCA identity. It is an amalgam of various factions, some of whom can't stand each other. Some would never join a church led by those who are in other factions (or camps or schools of thought or whatever word you want to use.) At times it is hardly more unified than the Southern Baptist Convention. I don't think it is an exaggeration to imagine that the elders of some of those churches might think "Here comes trouble" if they saw several of us coming on a Sunday morning and knew who we are, what we believed and if we indicated that we might stick around for a while. (Or if they aren't inclined to think that negatively and/or know that we wouldn't be capable of causing trouble under the circumstances, they might think that "He's going to be very unhappy here unless he changes his views on x,y and z.") I'm not singling any of them out in particular. It could be any of hundreds of PCA congregations.


(Even some of us who aren't "TR's" or Old School or whatever anymore (or not today) still get upset when we see men ducking and diving and still claiming to "adhere to the Confession." For what it's worth, I am also dismayed by liberal Catholics, Lutherans who are loose confessionalists, and so on.)


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > What is the name of this new church plant?
> ...



South Baton Rouge was planted over 11 years ago according to the PCA History site. It looks like they've recently moved into a building after renting for a long time. I don't know that 11 years counts as "new." It has been around longer than Redeemer and St. Roch in New Orleans. (Well, I'm not sure what the start date of Redeemer is, but from what I understand the current pastor more or less started from scratch after Katrina.) Given the number of TE's SBR has (they have 3 listed in the website,) I wouldn't be shocked to learn that it is the largest PCA congregation in the city. (I don't think either of the others has more than one. I'm not sure if any others in the Presbytery would have more.) But that's one that I haven't visited. 

While I'm not in the PCA, I don't know why BR should be "ceded to the EPC" when there is only one EPC church in the city (even if it is probably the largest Presbyterian Church of any type in the state) and when it is one that has women elders. (The two in Ascension Parish were planted within the past decade and probably don't have women elders.) But if your point was that it should not be a priority now given the number of works already there, then I'd tend to agree. 



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Edward (Oct 20, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> South Baton Rouge was planted over 11 years ago according to the PCA History site.



Thanks. I Googled but didn't find the start date. I had thought it was post-Katrina. 




Pilgrim said:


> The two in Ascension Parish were planted within the past decade and probably don't have women elders.



The one in Prairieville has only male elders, but a mix of women and men as deacons. I couldn't find the information for the church in Gonzalez. 

The EPC over in Covington shows only male elders.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 20, 2015)

Edward said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > South Baton Rouge was planted over 11 years ago according to the PCA History site.
> ...



The Covington EPC was planted by a group that came out of the PCUSA there, from what I understand. It might date back to the 90's but I'm not sure. I don't know that any of the churches in that Presbytery that predate the influx of former PCUSA congregations have women elders, but I could be wrong. (Back then it was all Central South until it was split into two recently with the formation of the Gulf South Presbytery.) Some, such as Grace in Alexandria, also prohibit women deacons.


----------



## Clark-Tillian (Oct 21, 2015)

Gabor,

This thread has me thinking. If you're in Cleveland, OH, then you're in the Ohio Presbytery of the PCA. I know those men, many were in Ascension before we demarcated a new presbytery. Say a prayer of thanks--you're in a solid presbytery, with solid TEs and REs who will not play around with these games.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 21, 2015)

Edward said:


> I do want to say that I agree with your post (with those two minor quibbles, and I think you, Jacob and I are basically on the same page, with you all having a more current perspective.



For a little background: Chris and I used to go to the same OPC church in Central Louisiana.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 21, 2015)

> This thread has me thinking. If you're in Cleveland, OH, then you're in the Ohio Presbytery of the PCA. I know those men, many were in Ascension before we demarcated a new presbytery. Say a prayer of thanks--you're in a solid presbytery,



It was just a question about the PCA history in Louisiana. I did not understand that the PCA is stong almos all of the states in Deep South except LA. I did not want to tease anybody just did not know the reasonwhy Mississippi has 120 PCA congregation and Louisiana just 17


----------



## Edward (Oct 21, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Mississippi has 120 PCA congregation and Louisiana just 17


Mississippi used to be part of Georgia. Louisiana used to be part of France.


----------



## Clark-Tillian (Oct 21, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > Mississippi has 120 PCA congregation and Louisiana just 17
> ...



That's rich!


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 21, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Calvinbeza said:
> ...



Bingo. The French Catholic influence is huge.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 21, 2015)

Well my part of Mississippi used to be part of Spain.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 21, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Clark-Tillian said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...



But not really in North Louisiana, which has basically always been Protestant. The French colonies tended to be very sparsely populated compared to English ones. The only area that had a significant population was New Orleans. The Acadians then migrated to parts of South Louisiana, but that didn't impact most of Central Louisiana, much less the North. To some degree, until the 60's, they were sort of second class citizens who were barred from speaking their language in schools, etc, which is one reason why fewer and fewer people can really speak it today. 

I don't know what the percentages were in LA compared to MS, etc, but as settlement moved West, there tended to be fewer Presbyterians and Episcopalians and more Baptists and Methodists due to the latter having less formal educational requirements (if any) at the time. There aren't many PCA congregations in Arkansas either. There aren't dates listed for all of the Arkansas churches, but the PCA Historical Center only lists one that predates 1974. 

Another guess I have is that the churches were less doctrinally sound on average by the mid-20th Century compared to other states on average. I don't know about the rest of the state, but that probably explains things in New Orleans, which had a fairly sizeable Presbytery at one time, with the notable Southern Presbyterian leader Benjamin Morgan Palmer being pastor of First Presbyterian for many years. A lot of those congregations have either shut down or else are down to a few dozen people at this point, which is typical of many current and former PCUSA congregations throughout the country. 

Race and the Civil Rights struggle may have also been a factor. Louisiana was certainly segregated like the rest of the South. Indeed, Plessy vs. Ferguson was a case that originated in New Orleans. Prior to that, we were one of the last 3 states from which federal troops were withdrawn following the Civil War. But with the exception of the likes of Leander Perez there wasn't quite the level of Massive Resistance here that you had in several other states. I don't know that the Confederate battle flag flew in any kind of official capacity in LA following Brown vs the Board of Education. The most staunch segregationist candidates for Governor failed to be elected. It seems that at the lay level at least, the prospect of the PCUS forcing the churches to integrate and admit blacks into membership may have played at least much of a role in leaving for the PCA as theological liberalism did. It appears that secessionist (from the PCUS) fervor burned a bit hotter in states like MS, AL, and SC. 

These are just the educated guesses of a man who wasn't there at the time. Perhaps someone who has more intimate knowledge could weigh in. Given the subject matter, this is the kind of thread that is likely come up in Google searches for some time to come. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## TylerRay (Oct 21, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well my part of Mississippi used to be part of Spain.



You almost might think that about my part of Georgia, were you to visit it.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 21, 2015)

> Mississippi used to be part of Georgia. Louisiana used to be part of France.



not FUNNY


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 21, 2015)

Pilgrim 

Thanks for you answers. Tey are very useful


----------



## Edward (Oct 21, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> not FUNNY



You live up on the 'north coast'. Do you think Qubec is like western Ontario? 

Do you know the difference between the basis of the law in Louisiana and the law in Mississippi? Did you know that if there is a dispute as to the precise meaning of a section of the Louisiana Civil Code, you refer not to the published official English version, but to the French version?


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 24, 2015)

> You live up on the 'north coast'. Do you think Qubec is like western Ontario?



No I think not. But Louisiana is not Ohio, and is more similar to Mississippi or the neighbouring states than Ohio.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > You live up on the 'north coast'. Do you think Qubec is like western Ontario?
> 
> 
> 
> No I think not. But Louisiana is not Ohio, and is more similar to Mississippi or the neighbouring states than Ohio.



That is not true. Not by a long shot. Much of Louisiana has a STRONG French Catholic heritage (that's not even bringing Voodoo into the discussion). Mississippi and Louisiana could be further apart. The only possible similarities would be the Delta region of Mississippi and East Carroll Parish in Louisiana (have fun planting a church there!). The redneck culture of Ouachita, Union, and Morehouse parishes have some similarity to the redneck areas of Mississippi, but that still begs the question on the paucity of NAPARC churches in those parishes.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 24, 2015)

I'd love to plant a church in Lake Providence.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I'd love to plant a church in Lake Providence.



God bless anyone who tries


----------



## Edward (Oct 24, 2015)

East Carroll Parish has under 7500 people, it is losing about 1% per year, is 2/3 Black and a little over a quarter white. Per capita income is $12,000 per year. It does have a couple of nice looking bank buildings. Not sure if the hot sauce plant is open or not these days. They've had several fires over the years. (1986, 1999, 2001; don't know if they've had any since then.) http://www.panolapepper.com/ 



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I'd love to plant a church in Lake Providence.


----------



## Edward (Oct 24, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> But Louisiana is not Ohio



No, it's more like Quebec.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2015)

Edward said:


> East Carroll Parish has under 7500 people, it is losing about 1% per year, is 2/3 Black and a little over a quarter white. Per capita income is $12,000 per year. It does have a couple of nice looking bank buildings. Not sure if the hot sauce plant is open or not these days. They've had several fires over the years. (1986, 1999, 2001; don't know if they've had any since then.) http://www.panolapepper.com/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People (mainly white) on the northern side of the lake are quite wealthy. The southern side of the lake (mainly black) is one of the poorest districts in North America.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 24, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > East Carroll Parish has under 7500 people, it is losing about 1% per year, is 2/3 Black and a little over a quarter white. Per capita income is $12,000 per year. It does have a couple of nice looking bank buildings. Not sure if the hot sauce plant is open or not these days. They've had several fires over the years. (1986, 1999, 2001; don't know if they've had any since then.) http://www.panolapepper.com/
> ...




That's why I gave the wink.  I love that drive down that side of the Mississippi from Arkansas to I-20. 

Lake Providence, a place like no other.


----------



## Pilgrim (Oct 25, 2015)

I do like the drive. But would your thoughts be the same if it were named Lake Fortune?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Oct 25, 2015)

Not sure why that would change anything?


----------



## Edward (Oct 25, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> But would your thoughts be the same if it were named Lake Fortune?



I got it.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 25, 2015)

When I played football in high school we had to play a few games in Lake Providence. The police told the driver of the schoolbus to run every stop sign and red light. Do not stop until you get to the school. They police would take over from there.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 25, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > > Somewhat off-topic, but with some Louisianians here, is anyone aware of any non-PCA Reformed churches in the New Orleans area? Or, if not, are there any PCA churches that take the 2nd and 4th commandments more seriously than the norm? I'm contemplating a potential move to the area, but the PCA church websites I've seen in the area barely mention the Westminster Standards if at all, which is a not an encouraging sign for me.
> ...


Gabor,

Chris brings up a rather serious question for you here. It is something you need to consider when you ask your statistical questions. I would think you would know that. Especially since you have migrated from Europe. There are politically based reasons that are foundational also. Heritage plays heavily in the hearts and minds of people. Look at Michigan and other states that are more Northern. The saying, "If you aren't Dutch, you aren't much," truly has some truth tied up in it. Outsiders are viewed or looked at very skeptically. 

As I have noticed, Church planting is harder work if an area hasn't taken on a more pluralistic view of society. Pluralism removes tradition making way for introducing new ideology. There are less traditional ties to creed and family to overcome. When it comes to Church planting and growth I have seen prosperity when the Church depends upon the LORD to build His Church His way. 

If you don't mind Gabor I would like to know why you ask so many questions along the same vein concerning Church denominations and their existence? Would you also look at Chris' question and tell me if you understand what he is stating? More pointedly, can you give us a better understanding about what you would like to see in a Church? 

Psalm 127
1 Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh _but_ in vain.ab2_It is _vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: _for_ so he giveth his beloved sleep. 3 Lo, children _are_ an heritage of the Lord: _and_ the fruit of the womb _is his_ reward. 4 As arrows _are_ in the hand of a mighty man; so _are_ children of the youth. 5 Happy _is_ the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.cd


----------



## TheOldCourse (Oct 25, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > I'm not expecting to be able to find a Covenanter church in the area, but if I can find one that at least doesn't crassly flout those commandments I will be reasonably content--especially since my time there would likely only be for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Why just OPC?



Not just OPC, but "Confessional" denominations in the USA are not all alike in their confessionalism. All claim the Westminster Standards, but they hold to them in differing strictness according to the historical and literal intent of the standards. Those less strict are generally most lax in their positions on the 2nd commandment (images of Christ, dramatic worship practices, hymnody, etc.) and with the 4th (conducting business on the Lord's Day, recreation on the Lord's Day). While they are both very important in and of themselves, I also see them in some sense as indicative of an overall commitment to Reformed piety and practice--this is why I brought both up. 

If we are looking at NAPARC denominations, the PCA is, in general, the least strict of all the denominations and most prone to letting congregations jettison the confessional interpretations of those commandments (in practice at least). I've known PCA pastors who would go out and attend NFL games after preaching the morning sermon, for instance. I don't think you could get away with that in the other NAPARC denominations. The OPC, my current denomination, is probably somewhere in the middle as far as confessionalism goes and I would prefer to be there or somewhere further towards the Covenanter denominations which generally hold most rigidly to the historical intent of the standards. If PCA churches are my only choice, I would hope to find one on the more conservative end of the denomination--a denomination which does embrace a spectrum of views. I hope I've explained where I was coming from with some of my questions.


----------



## Calvinbeza (Oct 25, 2015)

> If you don't mind Gabor I would like to know why you ask so many questions along the same vein concerning Church denominations and their existence? Would you also look at Chris' question and tell me if you understand what he is stating? More pointedly, can you give us a better understanding about what you would like to see in a Church?



In Europe there is no church planting, just the cults trying to planting.There is nominal Christianity. People go to church in Christmas or Eastern. Only elder go to church regularly. In my home country 2% of the population attend a church regularly. 

Church planting is something new for me. Denominational planting is new for me.Historical Christianity is in decline in Europe Churches were sold to offices.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 25, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > If you don't mind Gabor I would like to know why you ask so many questions along the same vein concerning Church denominations and their existence? Would you also look at Chris' question and tell me if you understand what he is stating? More pointedly, can you give us a better understanding about what you would like to see in a Church?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have been to Italy and France and know others where the State has a Church. It appears to me that the Libertines were allowed to invade the Clerical Offices were the Reformation took hold and the Confessions as well as the Catechisms have been set aside. Men started to cater to social needs as the greater good. The crown of Christ became insignificant. Now the books that could help are just dust collectors. The spirit of the age is Pluralism against Christ. 

So can you answer another question for me? You have a lot of good questions but are you just seeking knowledge for knowledge sake or are you planning to apply this knowledge to something? 

I am going to ask again, would you also look at Chris' questions and tell me if you understand what he is stating about confessional adherence? More pointedly, can you give us a better understanding about what you would like to see in a Reformed Church if one was to seek uncharted geographical territory? 

This is why I ask, I belong to one of the oldest denominations around. We are not big but we are growing and it appears to be solid growth. Our distinctives are important. It begins with Christ the King and ends with Him. We haven't sought to be relevant in the world outside of the Christology the Bible and our confession presents. What do you see and think is important after you have asked so many questions and been given so many answers here on the PB? How are you going to apply the things you have learned?

This is what I have been taught that has helped me. 
[video=youtube_share;aiZMwGNLA4g]https://youtu.be/aiZMwGNLA4g[/video]


----------



## Edward (Oct 25, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> In Europe there is no church planting



There is church planting in Europe, it's just a difficult and long term prospect, not the 2-4 years anticipated in the states. (I've seen 15-20 years given as the time required in France, for example.)


----------

