# The Number of the Elect Outnumbers the Number of the Lost



## doctorcello (Jul 28, 2008)

I have written a little essay with 8 points showing that the number of the elect vastly outnumbers the number of the lost. I wrote this because I could not find much about this on the internet. I believe Thornwell and Hodge also believed this. Corrections and criticisms are welcome!

The Number of the Elect Includes the Majority of Mankind
Dr. Marshall C. St. John ([email protected])

Re 7:9-10 "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no-one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Over and over the Book of Revelation refers to the number of God's children as a "great multitude." How great is that multitude? Present day evangelicalism says that it is actually a very small percentage of mankind. I believe that the Bible tells us exactly the opposite: that the number of the saved will actually be VERY MUCH more than the number of the lost.

I don't believe in "Universalism." That's the doctrine that everyone in the world will go to Heaven, everyone without exception. The Bible tells us that there are people who will be lost forever. For example: Revelation 20:15..."If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." And Revelation 21:7-8... "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practise magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur." And there are many other verses which agree.

But let me show you from the Bible that the majority of the human race must be saved. There are eight Biblical reasons why the majority of mankind must be saved...

I. The majority of mankind must be saved because the verse most often used to teach the opposite is badly mis-interpreted.

I refer to Matthew 7:13-14...

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 

This verse has been used to teach that the majority of the human race will be damned. But this interpretation is an example of taking verses out of context, which is poor "Hermeneutics." Hermeneutics is the science of Bible interpretation. There are a number of rules that come into play, especially with these verses in Matthew.

Rule Number One: Never take a verse out of context. What is the context of Matthew 7:13-14? First, the Book of Matthew itself is the context. There are four Gospels, and they are written to four different recipients. Matthew to the Jews. Luke to the Gentiles. Mark also to the Gentiles. John is a theological work written decades after the other Gospels. So, when we read Matthew 7:13-14 we should look to see if these verses have special relevance to the Jewish people of the first century. We should realize also that the Jewish audience is the immediate context of Jesus' remarks. He is speaking to a Jewish audience in the Holy Land 2000 years ago. He is NOT speaking primarily to the world at large, though all His words naturally have applications for later readers.

Rule Number Two: When reading a passage in one of the Synoptic Gospels, you must check the parallel passages in the other two Gospels. Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the Synoptic Gospels because they basically cover the same historical ground. They give three views of the same incidents and sermons of Jesus. Is there a parallel passage for Matthew 7:13-14 that sheds light? It turns out that Luke 13:23-30 is parallel, and it does indeed shed light on the Matthew passage.

23 ¶ Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them,
24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ "But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 "Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 "But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last." 

Matthew is just bare bones. Luke expands and explains that Jesus is refering to His contemporary Jewish audience. They were rejecting Him. He is the narrow gate. The Jews of Jesus' time did not receive Him as the Messiah. And so Jesus says to them: not many of you are going to make it into the Kingdom of God. However, Jesus makes it clear that a vast multitude of OTHERS will be saved: "People will come from east and west and north and south," which encomapasses the globe!

So, the Matthew passage does NOT teach that only a few people out of all humanity will be saved. It DOES teach that only a few of Jesus' Jewish audience of 2000 years ago were saved. They rejected Him, the narrow gate.

II. The majority of mankind must be saved because of the salvation of infants who die in infancy.

Up until recent times more children died in infancy and childhood than lived. A mother would quite often give birth to eight children, and have only three survive into adulthood. And even in modern times, biologist tell us that a very large percentage of conceptions don't even survive past the first two months of pregnancy. Yet these unborn children are true human beings, and when they die, they go to Heaven to be with the Lord. How do we know that infants and children who die go straight to Heaven?

First, we have the words of our Savior Jesus Christ in Matthew 19:13-14...

13 ¶ Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 

And we have the words of King David, which he spoke after learning of the death of his infant child in 2 Samuel 12:18-23...

18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realised that the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshipped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting in this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." 

Christians down through the centuries have believed that their infants/children go to Heaven when they die, and I believe the Bible says that, too. So, already, we have a great multitude of redeemed people in Heaven.

III. The majority of mankind must be saved because it is the nature of God to save rather than to damn.

Consider Jonah 3:10--4:2 and 4:10-11:

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
1 ¶ But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry.
2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.
10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.
11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" 

Consider Psalm 103:8-14...

8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse, nor will he harbour his anger for ever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust. 

IV. The majority of mankind must be saved because salvation is by FAITH not by KNOWLEDGE or WORKS.

People do not need to do tons of good works (Legalism) in order to be saved. If we were saved by works, surely none of us would ever merit salvation.

People do not need to have a lot of theological knowledge to be saved. (This would be the ancient heresy of Gnosticism.) Consider the salvation of Abraham. What did Abraham KNOW about God? Did Abraham know about the Trinity? Did He know that the 2nd person of the Triune God would die on a cross to pay for his sins? Did Abraham know about predestination, election, justification, sanctification and so on? How was Abraham saved? He had faith in God. (Genesis 15:1-6)

1 ¶ After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."
 2 ¶ But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."
4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir."
5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. 

The man who was born blind is also an example to us of a person who was saved with very little knowledge, but lots of faith (John 9:13-38).

13 ¶ They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind.
14 Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath.
15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.
17 Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."
18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents.
19 "Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"
20 "We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind.
21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself."
22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
23 That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."
24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God," they said. "We know this man is a sinner."
25 He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
26 Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?"
27 He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"
28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses!
29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from."
30 The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.
31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.
32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.
33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."
34 To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.
35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36 "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshipped him. 

V. The majority of mankind must be saved because of death bed conversions.

The old saying is: "There are no atheists in foxholes." When death is knocking on your door, you all of a sudden see things in a different light. It is a well-known fact that many prison inmates awaiting execution admit their sins, and receive Jesus as Savior.

The thief on the cross is the most famous Bible "death bed" conversion. We find it in the Gospel of Luke chapter 23...

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don’t you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." 

People that you would least expect to become Christians, do it just before they die: Karla Faye Tucker, executed a decade ago in Texas; Reggae singer Bob Marley, led to Christ by a hospital nurse. Mortimer Adler, Jewish Columbia University Professor, Great Philosopher, editor of the famous Great Books of the Western World, former pagan, became a Christian in his old age. And many others could be mentioned, who came to Christ from all kinds of paganism, atheism, and world religions.

How many multitudes in our hospitals across America, or at home dying, are finally talking with their Maker, and repenting of their sins, and receiving Christ? Many, I think. And don't scoff at death bed conversions. God works in mysterious ways.

VI. The majority of mankind must be saved because Jesus is the Victor, not the Loser.

What did Jesus come to this world to do? What does the Bible say?

"He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work" (I John 3:8).

What was the devil's work? The fall of mankind. What will Jesus destroy? The fall of mankind.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17).

What will Jesus save? He will save THE WORLD. Now, I have already said I don't believe in UNIVERSALISM. Some people will be lost. But the Bible pictures Jesus as saving the world.

In literature there are many devices: simile, metaphor, etc. etc. This is an example of hyperbole. It is an exaggeration, but it is still the truth. It is to say ALL, and not mean literally ALL, but still be a true statement. We use hyperbole all the time. (That statement was hyperbole!) For example:

"Everyone knows that gas prices are much higher than they used to be."

That's not LITERALLY true, but it is true. There must be a few people who don't know anything about gas prices. But it is still a true statement. IT WOULD NOT BE A TRUE STATEMENT IF ONLY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT RISING GAS PRICES.

The Bible uses the term "world" or "all" or similar terms so many times that we must conclude that the majority of mankind must be saved. Here are some more examples:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men" (I Timothy 2:5-6).

"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" (I Cor 15:21-22).

"For God was pleased to have all his fulness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Colossians 1:19-20).

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2).

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Romans 5:18)

Jesus is UTTERLY VICTORIOUS over Satan (Colossians 2:15)

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." Now, if only a small percentage of mankind were saved, how could we speak of Jesus as having victory?

VII. The majority of mankind must be saved because of the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:36-43):

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. 

Note: The field is THE WORLD. And in another place Jesus tells us to pray for laborers, for the field is ripe for harvest. This is not a case in which there is a field of weeds with a few stalks of wheat scattered throughout the field. No, it is a field of wheat! It is the weeds which are few, not the wheat. It is a wheat field, not a weed field!

VIII. The majority of mankind must be saved because the percentage of Christians and the number of Christian nations is always increasing.

Jesus commanded His followers to make disciples of all the nations in Matthew 28:18-20:

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." 

The prophecies of the Bible seem to say that the discipling of all the nations will become a reality. All the nations of the world will become Christian nations.

"From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory" (Isaiah 59:19).

"Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn" (Isaiah 60:1-3).

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD" (Isaiah 66:22-23).

"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out; no-one will hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. In his name the nations will put their hope" (Matt. 12:18-21).

"Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed" (Rev. 15:4).

"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendour into it" (Rev. 21:22-24).

Consider the growth of Christianity throughout the world in the past 2000 years. It began with Jesus and the twelve. Then several thousands were saved and added to the Church on the Day of Pentecost. Peter and Paul and the other Apostles founded churches and wrote the New Testament. The Church has grown throughout the centuries, and now we actually many nations that are considered Christian nations. One fourth of the world claims to follow Jesus Christ.

We have every reason to believe that as the Gospel is preached more and more people will come to Christ. More nations will become Christian nations. A greater percentage of the world will be Christian. Today one fourth. Maybe in a thousand years one half. Maybe in 2000 more years, 90 percent of the world will name the name of Christ. We are not yet in a "post christian era." We are still in a "pre christian era" as far as the world is concerned.

And when the nations become Christian nations, and when most people are Christians, and we rear our children to love Jesus Christ, and when the institutions of society and government are directed by Christian men and women, how long will such a state continue? We don't know. Until the end of the age. And what percentage of the human race will then be saved? We don't know, but it will surely be very, very great!

And so I conclude, along with the Book of Revelation, that the number of the saved is a multitude so great that no man can number it. It is a roaring great multitude! It is an amazing harvest. It is a load of fish breaking the net (to mix methphors!)


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## TimV (Jul 28, 2008)

> III. The majority of mankind must be saved because it is the nature of God to save rather than to damn.



This is typical of your type of argumentation. If it is in God's nature to save rather than to damn, then all are saved, otherwise God is going against His nature. 

Your thinking seems to be that since it is God's nature to save and not His nature to damn, then over 50 percent of people who have ever lived are saved. But that is brutally illogical, because you've picked an arbitrary point between where God follows His nature and He doesn't. In other words you seem to be saying that if 40% of humanity are saved and 60% are lost, then God would not be following His nature, but if 60% of humanity is saved and 40lost then God would be following His nature.


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## doctorcello (Jul 28, 2008)

*Biblical Theology*

I would prefer to state my argument Biblically. The Bible says two things, which must somehow be reconciled.

1. It says that some will definitely be lost.
2. It says that God is inherently merciful and compassionate.

So, Biblically speaking, what does God prefer to do: damn or save? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture says He prefers to save. And if I picked a particular percentage, I would prefer to say 99% will be saved, rather than 51%.


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## Seb (Jul 28, 2008)

I've always taken it that *most would be lost*. Isn't that what Jesus was telling us?

[bible]Matthew 7:13-14[/bible]

Or am I being _too simple-minded_ with these verses?


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## doctorcello (Jul 28, 2008)

*You didn't read my first point...*

Matt 7:13-14 says that only a few of the Jews of Jesus' generation will be saved. It is not applicable to all of mankind in all ages. See the explanation in the parallel passage in Luke.


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## ChristopherPaul (Jul 28, 2008)

TimV said:


> > III. The majority of mankind must be saved because it is the nature of God to save rather than to damn.
> 
> 
> If it is in God's nature to save rather than to damn, then all are saved, otherwise God is going against His nature.


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## Seb (Jul 28, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> You didn't read my first point...



I read it. I just don't know that I agree with it.


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## ChristopherPaul (Jul 28, 2008)

I have wondered if God was literal when he said to Abram that his descendent's will be as numerous as the dust of the earth. That statement does give the impression of a majority.


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## Kevin (Jul 28, 2008)

Brother I agree with your main point. Although I would not agree with #2 point #7 is the deciding factor.

God wins. And it is not a narrow photo-finish kind of win either. It is a big one. 

In eternity no one will be able to look back on this era and say "Boy, it seemed like the ol' debbil had you on the ropes there for a few rounds. I sure am glad you called the game & got us out of there!"

God wins, satan loses, and it won't even be close.

And we will have all eternity to praise Him, and thank Him for it.


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## Kenneth_Murphy (Jul 28, 2008)

When your talking billions upon billions of people, even the minority slice can be described as being uncountable. How would you hand count a billion people out of 10 billion people? So I don't think you can use the uncountable mass of elect as indicating if it is bigger or smaller than the uncountable mass of the damned. Also, you could agrue that if God even damns one person then he is not being merciful and compansonate from the perspective of that one person. So I don't think you can scale up that type of arguement either and say becuase God has attributes of mercy and compassion he has to elect a marjority. I also don't think that compassion and mercy represent the chief attributes of God. The WSC doesn't say we were created to chiefly to demonstate God's compassion and Mercy. What about his Justice? one could argue that if all are sinners and God has Mercy on over half then he's definately not being Justice in his handling of the minority he passed over and didn't elect. I'm not saying God can't or hasn't decided to elect a majority, I'm not not seeing how these lines of arguementation "prove" that to be necessary for God to be consisent in his nature.


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Jul 28, 2008)

Kenneth_Murphy said:


> When your talking billions upon billions of people, even the minority slice can be described as being uncountable. How would you hand count a billion people out of 10 billion people? So I don't think you can use the uncountable mass of elect as indicating if it is bigger or smaller than the uncountable mass of the damned. Also, you could agrue that if God even damns one person then he is not being merciful and compansonate from the perspective of that one person. So I don't think you can scale up that type of arguement either and say becuase God has attributes of mercy and compassion he has to elect a marjority. I also don't think that compassion and mercy represent the chief attributes of God. The WSC doesn't say we were created to chiefly to demonstate God's compassion and Mercy. What about his Justice? one could argue that if all are sinners and God has Mercy on over half then he's definately not being Justice in his handling of the minority he passed over and didn't elect. I'm not saying God can't or hasn't decided to elect a majority, I'm not not seeing how these lines of arguementation "prove" that to be necessary for God to be consisent in his nature.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 28, 2008)

Has there ever been an age when the majority of the populace have seemed to show the fruits of being saved? Quite the opposite seems to be true. It seems that regardless of the age, only a minority of the world's population have ever been believers. 

I suppose that Christ's return could be so far into the future that untold millions will come to Christ, thus tipping the balance into a majority. God is all-powerful, and far be it from us to question his timing.

However, I believe that even a small minority of the world's population, throughout the ages, could be seen as an uncountable multitude, and that God's infinite mercy is shown in His electing to salvation even one of us, given the extent of our transgressions.


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## Ivan (Jul 28, 2008)

ericfromcowtown said:


> Has there ever been an age when the majority of the populace have seemed to show the fruits of being saved? Quite the opposite seems to be true. It seems that regardless of the age, only a minority of the world's population have ever been believers.
> 
> I suppose that Christ's return could be so far into the future that untold millions will come to Christ, thus tipping the balance into a majority. God is all-powerful, and far be it from us to question his timing.
> 
> However, I believe that even a small minority of the world's population, throughout the ages, could be seen as an uncountable multitude, and that God's infinite mercy is shown in His electing to salvation even one of us, given the extent of our transgressions.



I guess we'll have to wait and see.


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## Neogillist (Jul 28, 2008)

The large majority of Calvinists have taught that the large majority of mankind are being damned. This view was indeed held by Calvin, Owen, Gill, Edwards, and most others. The reason for this is not because God takes pleasure in damning sinners, for he doesn't, but rather because all mankind is subject to God's wrath because of original sin and the fall. This is also consitent with the infralapsarian position that all the elects were taken from a fallen mass of humanity, all subject to God's wrath. Now if it turns out indeed that all children that die in infancy before the age of accountability are saved is true, then I will admit that you are probably right that more than 50% of mankind will end up in heaven. However, this view has not been held by the majority of Reformed theologians until modern times. 

My question for you is that if the large majority of mankind are being saved rather than damned, where is God's purpose in sanctification? Is God's purpose really to get as many souls to heaven as possible? Is abortion or miscarriage really a greater evangelical tool than the preaching of the gospel? Much of our journey on earth is a preparation for eternity. We endure the sufferings and pains of this life while looking up to a greater inheritance to come. As the elects journey through life, they progressively become sanctified as they learn to die to their old nature (the flesh) and live in Christ. Meanwhile, the reprobates grow increasingly wicked and hardened as they attempt to find as much fulfillment in earthly pleasures as is possible, even at the expense of others. The Scripture also abundantly speak that God's desire for believers is their sanctification, this transformation that is painful and lifelong, but nonetheless necessary. However, your scheme does not seem to take this into account, but instead points to a need for God to blow up the number of souls in heaven as if this was God's ultimate purpose and end. Moreover, I deny that the Scripture are clear in regard to the salvation of infants that die outside the covenant. That is why the WCF and the Canons of Dort don't take a stand on this point. Consequently, we ought to stop prying into God's secret purposes and rather concentrate on his revealed will. Let us not find comfort in infant mortality, but in the preaching of the Gospel.


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## Ivan (Jul 28, 2008)

Neogillist said:


> ...Consequently, we ought to stop prying into God's secret purposes and rather concentrate on his revealed will. Let us not find comfort in infant mortality, but in the preaching of the Gospel.



*Amen!*


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## doctorcello (Jul 28, 2008)

*Very tough questions...*

You guys are a tough crowd, and I love you for it...



> My question for you is that if the large majority of mankind are being saved rather than damned, where is God's purpose in sanctification? Is God's purpose really to get as many souls to heaven as possible? Is abortion or miscarriage really a greater evangelical tool than the preaching of the gospel?



With regard to sanctification, my answer is that it is not God's will to do the whole "sanctification thing" with every individual. Some people die after being Christians for a very short time. Others live a lifetime, and grow in Grace.

Also I would not say it is "God's purpose to get as many souls to Heaven as possible." I think that is rather incidental to His main purpose which is Redemption of our fallen race, whether our race be many or few. His purpose is to undo what Satan brought about. (Of course there is also Hebrews 2:10, which indicates that bringing "many sons to glory" is something God wants to do.) "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering."

Of course your comment about abortion as an evangelistic tool is wrong. But it underlines the power of God to bring good out of evil.

Jesus wins, as someone said earlier in this thread. And He will win BIGTIME! Not just by a bare majority. Certainly, if Jesus takes only a minority of the human race to Heaven, you might say that would be a hollow victory indeed. No, He led captivity captive, and made a spectacle of the forces of evil. He made a mockery of Satan and his work at the cross.

Also: I don't think those on the contra side here are giving enough thought to death bed conversions as a source of Heaven bound sinners. I know from experience that hospital beds are places where people pray and get right with God. I believe there are a stupendously vast number of people being saved at this very moment, as they near death, all around the world. People who have heard the Gospel, and now in their final hour realize they have one last chance to turn to Jesus.


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## CharlieJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Does anyone think Premillennialism would lean toward this idea? Surely a lot of people can be born under ideal living conditions over a 1000 year period, and the indication would be that the great majority would be true believers.

I am not premillennial, but was wondering if this doctrine is common among premillennialists?


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## jogri17 (Jul 28, 2008)

Spurgeon also believed this. Personally I'm not worried. God is loving and just and he saved me. I do believe things such as abortion and child hood diseases will in the end make the number of the elect larger that most people think, but I am not convinced if it will be more or not.


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## doctorcello (Jul 28, 2008)

*Premils generally negative*

The Premils (and I used to be one-Moody grad) are generally negative about the number of the saved. I read a sermon by one poor fellow who thought that perhaps only 100 people might ever make it to Heaven!

However, the Post-Mil view definitely lends itself to the increased number of the elect, and I tend to a synthesis of pre/post mil. I believe the world will be "Christianized" eventually, and then perhaps the Millennium will be many thousands of years long, with the vast majority of everyone alive at that time being Christians all that long and blessed time.


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## Neogillist (Jul 29, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> You guys are a tough crowd, and I love you for it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your scheme nonetheless makes sanctification more of an exception to the large majority of those who end up in glory, whether it be one of those death-bed conversions that you say we are underestimating, or those aborted fetuses that die in the womb and make it straight to heaven. In addition, it also makes earthly life a means of fattening up the wicked for the slaughter since the large majority of those who survive infancy and grow up to become adults damn themselves in their actual sins. I am also bewildered at the fact that the Holy Spirit also would be regenerating such a large number of old men just before they face death, as if the church could not make better use of people who get converted in middle-age.

Another question for you pertains to 1 Cor. 3:11-15, which was perverted by the Romanists as a prooftext for purgatory. Now I know that you don't believe in purgatory. But according to this passage and the logical conclusion of your claim, the large majority of saints in heaven will be saved "through fire" which seems to refer to a bare justification with little sanctification or poor doctrinal foundation (such as those who will have taught heresies). Now what is there for babies that die in the womb to build upon? The Scriptures are clear that we will be judged by our works (as is the Apostle James), but according to you, this is an exception rather than the norm since most of the saints in heaven will have no works to show as evidence of their true faith, and thus will be saved, but without a reward (or at least not a substancial one). As for covenant children that die in their infancy, their parent's works could be imputed to them and for those who die on their death bead, they can still undergo some sanctification and learn some biblical doctrine, but as for those that die as a result of natural calamity or their wicked parents' choice, I do not see what kind of works they could present to God. There are other passages that speak of the same thing and God's purpose for our sanctification:
"1(A)Finally then, (B)brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to (C)walk and (D)please God (just as you actually do [a]walk), that you (E)excel still more. 
2For you know what commandments we gave you *by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 

3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you (F)abstain from sexual immorality; 

4that (G)each of you know how to possess his own [c](H)vessel in sanctification and (I)honor, 

5not in (J)lustful passion, like the Gentiles who (K)do not know God; 

6and that no man transgress and (L)defraud his brother (M)in the matter because (N)the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also (O)told you before and solemnly warned you." 1 Thessalonians 4:1-6.

Consequently, I would infer that the normal process of salvation involves regeneration, followed by faith, justification, then repentance, sanctification, physical death and glorification, and not simply physical death followed directly by glorification as for those countless numbers of babies that die in infancy. The rate of infant mortality in the 1500s was about 55%. Today it is a lot lower, even if you include abortions (although we need to take the larger population into account). According to one article, the total number of humans to have ever lived on earth so far would be ~100 billions (according to the evolutionary scheme, so this might blow up the numbers somewhat), see
How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? - Population Reference Bureau
However, this does not include abortions and miscarriages. Now, admitting that half of this number end up in heaven (as you are hoping), we are going to be totally overcrowded, especially according to the dimentions of the New Jerusalem as outlined in Rev. 21, which is estimated to be about the size of the North American continent. (The numbers could obviously be figurative, of course). But nonetheless, according to your scheme, maybe only 20% (still a fat estimate) of those who will end up in heaven will have gone through this regular process and order of salvation, while 80% will go to glory directly and instantly. Moreover, if this was indeed the reality, should we not expect God to have revealed this fact to us more clearly in Scriptures? I personally prefer to stick to the position that all children that die outside the covenant of grace (that is those of unbelievers) such as the children of Koram and Abiram are damned, except that they suffer so little that they are not conscious of their existence. This would be like the threshold of hell, and its mildest form and state. This is the position that Augustine held. Your article also mentions that throughout church history, it was believed that children go to heaven when they die. This is an half-truth, since most Catholic theologians (including monergists like Bernard of Clairvaux and Augustine) taught that babies that die unbaptized are damned or go to limbo. You see that they had more covenant theology in them than in yourself. Following the Reformation, the Calvinists modified this view by pointing out that baptism itself is not necessary for infant salvation, but that there must still be some covenant membership for such an assurance to be founded. Indeed, your view is held by most Reformed Baptists (like C. H. Spurgeon) since it provides another excuse for favoring credo-baptism.*


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## doctorcello (Jul 29, 2008)

*The majority of the majority*

I would suggest that the majority of the saved will come from those born again during the great millennial age, and thus will experience sanctification and growth in grace. They will be born again at a very young age, and live to be very old. No doubt their state of sanctification, and their good works, will be enormous. However, I don't see what difference that makes, or how it must be a necessary thing. For God will be glorified equally in saving a new born who dies, as in saving a young child who lives and does good works. 

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no-one may boast before him.
(I Corinthians 1:25-29)

Any good works that are credited to us are really God's good works in us, and we may never boast at all. So, saved infant or saved old man, short life or long life, God still is glorified, only in different ways.


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## Ivan (Jul 29, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> Any good works that are credited to us are really God's good works in us, and we may never boast at all. So, saved infant or saved old man, short life or long life, God still is glorified, only in different ways.



Amen, pastor, *Amen!!*


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## TimV (Jul 29, 2008)

> I would suggest that the majority of the saved will come from those born again during the great millennial age, and thus will experience sanctification and growth in grace.



But even so, to get to the 99% number



> So, Biblically speaking, what does God prefer to do: damn or save? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture says He prefers to save. And if I picked a particular percentage, I would prefer to say 99% will be saved, rather than 51%.



Do you have any understanding of the math involved? The millenia would have to last a million years. You can't use facts, because there aren't any!!! Your argument boils down to "Yahoo! This is what I feel!!!"


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## Poimen (Jul 29, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> Jesus wins, as someone said earlier in this thread. And He will win BIGTIME! Not just by a bare majority. Certainly, if Jesus takes only a minority of the human race to Heaven, you might say that would be a hollow victory indeed.



Why would it be a hollow victory? By what standard do we judge that Christ is victorious? Could God not be glorified in 7000 thousand? A seed? A remnant? In those who are slaughtered all the day long? Whose souls cry out from beneath the altar waiting for God to avenge them? In those who suffer under the cruel hand of the tyranny of the their earthly rulers and magistrates? 

I am not convinced that there has to be a majority of people in heaven for God to be anything to us or compatible with some preconceived notion of fairness except that it seemed good to Him. And this would equally apply to a minority in heaven. 

All men by nature are damned already might also be a good argument for the salvation of few, since there is no default heaven position. But it would also be a poor argument because Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So it has less to do with numbers as it has to do with understanding the mercy and justice of God.


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## doctorcello (Jul 29, 2008)

*More than a feeling....*

I'm not quite ready to admit that I'm just shouting "Yahoo!" and going on my feelings, though I must admit it DOES feel good to recogize the overwhelming grace of God to fallen mankind. Consider the following note from Shedd's Dogmatic Theology, p. 747....







I find myself in good company with some of Reformed theology's biggest brains, who were not just hooked on feeling good!


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## Iconoclast (Jul 29, 2008)

At the time of the flood/ what was different?


> 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


How about at the time of Sodom and Gommorah?


> 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly


 Will not the God of all the earth do right?
What about all those who have lived and died without hearing about Jesus,and his saving work on the cross? Multitudes die every day in that condition as we speak.
Everyone is glad that God has purposed to save a multitude to the praise of His glory.
Multitudes are also damned according to the righteous judgment of God.
He will do whatever is right


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## Iconoclast (Jul 29, 2008)

Just took another look at your post and I found this.
you said this;


> V. The majority of mankind must be saved because of death bed conversions.


 This is pure speculation. What about the other thief on the cross?
You make it sound as if life-long reprobates have it in their power to believe if they want to,when they want to. This is more likely their end;


> 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
> 
> 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


 I believe this conclusion is also suspect,you said:


> What will Jesus save? He will save THE WORLD. Now, I have already said I don't believe in UNIVERSALISM. Some people will be lost. But the Bible pictures Jesus as saving the world.


 Jesus is the saviour of the world/ not the Jew only- this in and of itself does not translate to a majority. See here in JN .11


> 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
> 
> 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
> 
> 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Maybe God has purposed to save more than remain lost. If he only saved one it is all of grace.That he has purposed to save many is wonderful. I think you might want to use more caution with trying to stretch the verses to "say" more than what they were intended to say.


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