# "Foreordained to everlasting death" What is "everlasting death"?



## Afterthought (Mar 6, 2013)

So what exactly is the "everlasting death" that God foreordained some to? Is "everlasting death" hell, or is hell part of the execution of the decree rather than the decree itself (it seems that hell, understood as a place of punishment for sins, presupposes a fall; the "everlasting life" of the confession doesn't seem to necessarily presuppose a fall, so that makes me wonder whether "everlasting death" does; then again, I'm not sure what's the difference between "everlasting life" and "everlasting glory")?

If hell is the same as this everlasting death, would we not then be able to say, "God positively chooses some men to go to hell out of the mere pleasure of His will?" ("foreordained" seems to have a more positive aspect to it than a mere "passing by", but a less active involvement than "predestinated") Is that different from saying "God creates some men to damn them?" If so, how?


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## MW (Mar 6, 2013)

Afterthought said:


> the "everlasting life" of the confession doesn't seem to necessarily presuppose a fall, so that makes me wonder whether "everlasting death" does)?



From one point of view there are decrees in the plural, that is, different objects and relations that are decreed. From another point of view there is only one decree, that is, God's purpose in and of itself is singular. Hence it is dangerous to jump in on the decrees and separate them one from another. There are means and ends as we view God's decrees but this is merely one of logical order. Ends come first and means lead to the ends. But God decrees all at once in a single act of His will. So we should not separate the ends from the means. Everlasting death is an end. Sin and wrath is a means. Taking God's purpose as one undivided act, we see there is no purpose of God simply to damn men irrespective of their sin and the judgment it deserves. At the same time, we recognise that God's decrees are unconditional, so the foreordination to everlasting death did not contingently depend on sin and judgment entering the world. We can ascertain this much from divine revelation. Farther than this it would be dangerous to venture.


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## Afterthought (Mar 6, 2013)

Thank you! That clears up quite a bit, and I think I finally understand the answer to the "God creates some men to damn them" objection that is frequently raised. In an effort to not venture further than it is safe, would it be going too far to ask the question of whether God positively chose the reprobate and the elect or whether God positively chose the elect but merely left the reprobate in their sins? It would seem to me that the former could be seen as the decree, and the latter as the execution of the decree, and so such doesn't seem to go too far since they seem to be two different things (I note the "passing by" language of the confession), unless the execution of the decree is actually a means (it seems to me the execution of the decree would be decreed as a means, but is distinct from the decree itself, even as carrying out a plan is distinct from making a plan?)?

Incidentally, would election unto glory be one of the means of the predestination to everlasting life?


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## MW (Mar 7, 2013)

Afterthought said:


> In an effort to not venture further than it is safe, would it be going too far to ask the question of whether God positively chose the reprobate and the elect or whether God positively chose the elect but merely left the reprobate in their sins?



As far as I can see, that question simply seeks clarification of the statement that some are ordained to everlasting death. The use of "foreordination" instead of "predestination" for this specific class of persons suggests that the divines may have been avoiding the idea of "equal ultimacy." Certainly some commentators have taken that view, and I am inclined towards it. But we must not forget that the foreordination is itself unconditional, as section 2 has taught, and that the foreordination taught in section 3 is of persons, not conditions. In my opinion this requires a positive decree. Preterition, or passing by, is taught in section 7 in relation to the means of salvation. This is an additional consideration in the Confession's presentation; and even here, positive foreordination is explicitly taught.


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## Afterthought (Mar 7, 2013)

armourbearer said:


> As far as I can see, that question simply seeks clarification of the statement that some are ordained to everlasting death.


You are probably right. Thanks for the clarification! I hadn't thought about section 7 in that way before. Incidentally, I've been finding the shorter catechism quite useful when it comes to thinking about all sorts of biblical concepts: not any less here, the decrees being explained in the catechism as God's eternal purpose. I never would have thought that a form of words could be so useful for thinking, but it sure has been turning out to be that way for me.


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## MW (Mar 8, 2013)

Afterthought said:


> I never would have thought that a form of words could be so useful for thinking, but it sure has been turning out to be that way for me.



That is wonderful to hear. They used to print the times tables on the back of the Catechism, which is a good illustration of the way in which a rudimentary form can prove very helpful.


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