# Presbyterian denominations



## Preach (Jan 3, 2006)

Which five Presbyterian denominations would you recommend to someone looking for a confessional Presbyterian denomination? Please list their website if you know them. Thanks.
"In Christ",
Bobby


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 3, 2006)

PCA
OPC
RPCNA
RPCGA


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## Mike (Jan 3, 2006)

The PCA, OPC, ARPC, RPCNA, and EPC are some of the bigger (if not the 5 biggest) confressional, Presbyterian denominations.

PCA - http://www.pcanet.org/
OPC - http://www.opc.org/
ARPC - http://www.arpsynod.org/
RPCNA - http://www.reformedpresbyterian.org/
EPC - http://www.epc.org/

I believe these all adhere to the WCF. Some of the more interesting distinctives would include the ARPC's allowing woman deacons, the EPC's not prohibiting woman enders and deacons at a denominational level, and the RPCNA's exclusive psalmnody and non-use of instruments.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 3, 2006)

Presbyterian Reformed Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly
Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregation


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## Mike (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> RPCGA


This small, conservative Presbyterian denomination's distinctives include theonomy and a strong family focus in church practice.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Presbyterian Reformed Church
> Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
> Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly
> Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregation





But this a note: with the OPC and PCA churches I have visited, varying degrees of "adherence" or "subscription" to the WCF can be found. For example, First Pres in Margate here in South Florida will have a "higher liturgy" than many PCA churches. But they will also have parades in church, and allow Roman Catholics to take the pulpit to "say a few words" during Sunday service. West Boca PCA in Boca Raton does not adhere to a high liturgy at all, is contemproary and seeker sensitive, and has liturgical dance, costumed preaching (dress up like Jonah and talk in the first person), puppet shows etc., as part of thier worship.

With the RPCGA & RPCNA there is no deviation like that, or degree. In other words, your church has to adhere to the WCF as the denomination sees it should, and those that do not would be asked to leave the denomination. 

For the RPCGA, we allow for a few exceptions, the largest or most "controversial" being hymns vs EP. Most of the churches, though, sing hymns outside of the call to worship and benediction, and some of the churches with few people will use a piano. But that is as far as the deviation will allow.

[Edited on 1-3-2006 by C. Matthew McMahon]


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Presbyterian Reformed Church
> Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
> Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly
> Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregation



All of which are few and far between. I would have no problems attending such churches or recommending them, but they simply do not have "elders in every city" per se, which makes a general top five recommendation for someone probably ineffective.

My four was the most popular from my perspective although I should have included the ARPC.

I would only recommend EPC if it was the last resort.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 3, 2006)

How is "confessional Presbyterian denomination" being defined?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 3, 2006)

Bobby, while I know you were simply asking about a few denominations, and while I do in fact highlight a few with the greatest balance between confessional faithfulness and geographic breadth, I also thought it would be helpful to present a more exhaustive list I compiled awhile back, to put all of the churches (including the most popular ones) in greater perspective. Here are the Presbyterian churches:

American Presbyterian Church (http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org)
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (http://www.arpsynod.org)
Associated Presbyterian Churches (http://www.apchurches.org)
Bible Presbyterian Church (http://www.bpc.org)
Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (http://www.covref.org)
Covenanting Association of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches (http://www.carpc.ccrmin.com)
Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church (http://www.erpchurch.org)
Free Presbyterian Church (http://www.freepres.org)
Korean American Presbyterian Church (http://www.kapc.org)
Orthodox Presbyterian Church (http://www.opc.org)
Presbyterian Church in America (http://www.pcanet.org)
Presbyterian Reformed Church (http://www.presbyterianreformed.org)
Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (http://www.rpcga.org)
Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery (http://www.rpchanover.org)
Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States (http://www.rpcus.com)
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (http://www.reformedpresbyterian.org)
Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States (http://www.wpcus.org)

While I certainly could not recommend all of the above churches equally, be it because of either schism, mere size or other reasons, they are all nonetheless confessional churches. As has been mentioned, the ones that arguably have the best "balance" between a confessional nature and a widely-available geographic status are the PCA, OPC, ARPC and RPCNA, and perhaps the RPCGA and RPCUS as well. Regarding the EPC, while the compromises already mentioned are accurate, it should also be noted that it is left open to each congregation to practice charismatic gifts if the elders so choose. Also, while some people consider some of the PCA, OPC and ARPC to be too "broadly evangelical," the EPC in that regard puts in perspective just how comparatively confessional the former churches are.

Also, while this thread is about Presbyterian churches, I think it worthwhile to also include some of the most significant Dutch Reformed churches that are faithfully confessional. In fact, while I am Presbyterian in conviction, and officially adhere to the Westminster Standards rather than the Three Forms of Unity, I would actually recommend many of the following churches more readily than I would recommend a couple of the Presbyterian churches in my above list, mostly due to blatant schism. Here are the most significant Dutch Reformed churches in North America of which I am aware:

Canadian and American Reformed Churches (http://www.canrc.org)
Free Reformed Churches of North America (http://www.frcna.org)
Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations (http://www.hnrc.org/gr/Find_A_Church/find_a_church.html)
Hungarian Reformed Church in America (http://www.calvinsynod.org/church/location.htm)
Orthodox Christian Reformed Church (http://www.burlingtonocrc.com/directory.html)
Protestant Reformed Churches in America (http://www.prca.org)
Reformed Church in the United States (http://www.rcus.org)
Reformed Church of QuÃ©bec (http://www.erq.qc.ca)
United Reformed Churches in North America (http://www.urcna.org)

Here are some so-called "Presbyterian" and "Reformed" congregations that I would definitely recommend people _avoid_ altogether:

Christian Reformed Church (http://www.crcna.org) "“ _liberalism_
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (http://www.crechurches.org) "“ _paedocommunion_
Cumberland Presbyterian Church (http://www.cumberland.org) "“ _universal infant salvation, denial of Particular Redemption and denial of eternal reprobation_
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (http://www.epc.org) "“ _ordination of women, practice of charismatic gifts_
Federation of Reformed Churches (http://www.federationorc.org) - _paedocommunion_
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (http://www.pcusa.org) "“ _liberalism and denial of the Gospel_
Providence National Presbytery (http://www.providencepresbytery.org) "“ _paedocommunion_
Reformed Churches in America (http://www.rca.org) "“ _liberalism_
Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted) (http://www.covenanter.org) or Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church (http://www.truecovenanter.com) - _no ecclesiastical officers_
Reformed Presbytery in North America (http://www.reformedpresbytery.org) - _no elders in most congregations, no deacons_

[Edited on 1-17-2006 by Me Died Blue]


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 3, 2006)

Chris, I really appreciate your work in organizing the many confessional Presbyterian denominations.

I do have a question regarding your last category of churches to avoid altogether. Do the Paedocommunion churches force the children to partake of the elements? Should paedocommunion alone be used as a litmus test? I know plenty of Credobaptists who will not leave a church simply because the church supports and encourages paedobaptism. If a family lived in an area with no confessional Presbyterian churches except for a CREC, then you would advise them to avoid it entirely simply because of Paedocommunion?

I do not support Paedocommunion nor do I intend to sidetrack this thread into another Paedocommunion thread. I just question why paedocommunion will automatically require avoidance at all costs.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 3, 2006)

I think that is a good question, Christopher, and one that will allow for further highlights and discussion on some of the issues involved here. One reason I included them is because many of the churches in those denominations have, not surprisingly, either flirted with or embraced other views in-line with Federal Vision theology. The reason I do not mention that along with paedocommunion is because the entire denominations do not universally embrace such, and also because it has not even been dealt with in Presbyterian and Reformed churches enough to render it an "official" doctrinal camp per se, even though it is definitely a specific movement. Furthermore, those denominations practicing paedocommunion generally act schismatically or independently in other ways as well.

Of course, because of the wide spectrum of views of various issues in Presbyterian and Reformed churches in our day, there is not going to be any perfect, "cut-and-dry" list of "good" denominations that is very easy to separate back-to-back from the "bad" ones. For instance, when I really consider what I would say to people in person, I would probably never recommend a few of the Presbyterian denominations I initially mentioned, either. One example is the Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted), as they essentially hold that any church is in great error that does not hold to the Solemn League and Covenant, and thus, while they do not officially declare all such churches to be false, they nonetheless are one of the best examples of schismatic denominations in contemporary Reformed Christendom.

However, the reason I included them in the initial list if because the sole standard I was using for what to include was Presbyterian churches that more or less are confessional, and while that church is schismatic, they are confessional to be sure. Likewise, while I believe, for instance, the Protestant Reformed Churches in America's denial of common grace to be problematic, as well as their somewhat exclusivist (though not _schismatic_ in the sense of the Covenanted church) mindset, they are nonetheless a confessional church. So while I do not "like" the latter denomination, and even believe the former to be in great sin because of the ecclesiastical practices and beliefs of schism, they are in-line with the _doctrinal_ Reformed confessions. Churches that embrace paedocommunion, on the other hand, decidedly reject a universal part of all historic Reformed confessions, and so often have no problem deviating on major related issues as well.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 3, 2006)

Chris B.,
How many churches do the Reformed Presbyterian Church Covenanted have?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Chris B.,
> How many churches do the Reformed Presbyterian Church Covenanted have?



Oddly enough, I could not find a list on their site.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> ...



This is, I believe, Jim Dodson's church, and they have, to the best of my knowledge, not unlike some other "denominations," only one congregation, in Pottstown, Pennsylvania.


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## Arch2k (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> ...



I've looked before as well, and couldn't find one. It could be like the Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church where they currently do not have any officers, but I am merely speculating.

Anyone else know?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...



I believe the two website pertain the same church -- Jim Dodson's church in Pottstown, PA -- sometimes described as Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted) and sometimes as the Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church. I used to receive their magazine. The last time I spoke with Jim they did not have any ecclesiastical officers.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 3, 2006)

Interesting. Chris B, can the American Reformation Presbyterian Church make your list now since you have, apparently, a micro denomination with only one church any way? ARPC has two TEs and twp REs at least, and 100+ members (which makes our one church as large if not larger than some micros with "multiple churches" I suspect!).


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 3, 2006)

I found that the two websites are indeed referring to the same church, as Andrew mentioned. I know that because the "Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted)" is the church with which Still Waters Revival Books is affiliated, and the latter's site has an article by Dodson here. Furthermore, the "Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church" lists Dodson at the bottom of the Sermons page, although interestingly, they only list his name as "J-- D-----."



> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Interesting. Chris B, can the American Reformation Presbyterian Church make your list now since you have, apparently, a micro denomination with only one church any way? ARPC has two TEs and twp REs at least, and 100+ members (which makes our one church as large if not larger than some micros with "multiple churches" I suspect!).



I would (and will) include it on a general list of Reformed churches, including Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed and Reformed Baptist churches alike. While I do not consider it to be "Presbyterian" because of the very definition of "Presbyterian" polity, I have considered the fact that Reformed Baptist churches _all_ essentially have independent polity. So even though I wouldn't describe it among a list of Presbyterian churches to someone, it is certainly confessionally Reformed, and thus I plan to include it in lists such as the appendix to the Reformed primer I hope to write.

Regarding the Covenanted church, I actually do not plan on including it any longer on either a list of "Presbyterian" churches (since it is one congregation) _or_ a list of Reformed churches as a whole, since learning that they do not even have any ordained officers!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 4, 2006)

MDB,

Jim Dodson's church is not affiliated with the Edmonton church that is connected to Still Water Revival Books. The latter is part of the RPNA (which is already on your list). Jim Dodson's church, as I mentioned previously, is a lone congregation. The Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church in Pottstown, PA and the RPNA (with 7 congregations across North America listed on their website) are separate and not ecclesiastically affiliated, though both may rightfully be referred to as "Steelite." I am aware that SWRB has an article by Jim Dodson on their website, but that does not mean they are ecclesiastically united. In fact, their separation (over a variety of theological and personal matters) highlights the schismatic nature of their "testimony." 

I also agree with you that a "denomination" composed of one congregation, by definition, cannot be considered presbyterian. An independent congregation with or without a session cannot properly call themselves a presbytery, and a presbytery is necessary for a church to be part of a presbyterian denomination. "Presbytery" is not synonymous with "session."

Also, if your appendix is going to include groups that are confessional but "independent Presbyterian" churches, then I might suggest the Reformation Presbyterian Church, an independent Presbyterian "denomination"/congregation in Kerrville, Texas (their website says that they are a "congregation of the Southern Presbyterian Church (Continuing)," but there are no other congregations in their "denomination" currently) as well as the Confederate Presbyterian Church, another independent confessional Presbyterian church located in Wiggins, Mississippi.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Herald (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Bobby, while I know you were simply asking about a few denominations, and while I do in fact highlight a few with the greatest balance between confessional faithfulness and geographic breadth, I also thought it would be helpful to present a more exhaustive list I compiled awhile back, to put all of the churches (including the most popular ones) in greater perspective. Here are the Presbyterian churches:
> 
> American Presbyterian Church (http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org)
> ...



Chris - oh my goodness! Are there that many Presbyterian groupings? I honestly had no idea. You're giving us Baptists a good run for the money.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> I would (and will) include it on a general list of Reformed churches, including Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed and Reformed Baptist churches alike. While I do not consider it to be "Presbyterian" because of the very definition of "Presbyterian" polity, I have considered the fact that Reformed Baptist churches _all_ essentially have independent polity. So even though I wouldn't describe it among a list of Presbyterian churches to someone, it is certainly confessionally Reformed, and thus I plan to include it in lists such as the appendix to the Reformed primer I hope to write.



Thanks Chris! And maybe by the time you start pulling your primer together the ARPC will be in a position to be classed with the "Presbyterians".


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks for that information, Andrew. While I was aware that the RPNA were likewise Steelite in their views on the SL&C, I (obviously) did not know they were in fact the ones associated with SWRB, or that the Covenanted church was a break-off from them. I agree with your comments on their schism. Dodson's article I referenced above states, "The SL&C is that which removes 'pretended liberty of conscience' from the ranks of professing presbyterians...Apart from the SL&C, you may well adopt all or part the doctrine, government, worship and discipline of the Westminster Assembly -- but you will NEVER hold those in the concrete, the purposeful intent, of the real Covenanters (only with your own [usually individual] intent). You will always be adopting it as an alien work (a work of no binding ecclesiastical import); NEVER in the true spirit of its framing. It will NEVER serve its designed end of COVENANTED UNIFORMITY; it will always be the object of debate ('how much do we have to believe?' etc.)." If the existence of such a statement in light of the two groups' extreme similarities and the resulting nature of their separation is not ironic, I do not know what is.



> _Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis_
> Chris - oh my goodness! Are there that many Presbyterian groupings? I honestly had no idea. You're giving us Baptists a good run for the money.



Actually, I think it is a very sad thing there are so many separated churches within contemporary Presbyterian (and Dutch Reformed) circles. I hope to see at least a partial step in the other direction sometime in my life. And speaking of what you said, perhaps you could refer me to some of the leading Reformed Baptist groups or even denominations? Here are the main ones of which I am currently aware:

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (http://www.reformedbaptist.com)
Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals (http://www.firefellowship.org)
Reformed Baptist Fellowship (http://www.reformedbaptistfellowship.org)



> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> Thanks Chris! And maybe by the time you start pulling your primer together the ARPC will be in a position to be classed with the "Presbyterians".



That would be interesting to hear. I'm sure you would anyway, but keep us updated on any such likelihoods that come into being.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> That would be interesting to hear. I'm sure you would anyway, but keep us updated on any such likelihoods that come into being.


Will do; I think I mentioned this already in another thread as far as our hopes. Right now as far as FPCR goes, we are faced with the delimma that we have more people than will fit comfortably in our building each Lord's day and a solution has been elusive so far (move or build a new sanctuary on site are the choices I'm aware of). But it is an expensive problem to fix for the long term, which we really need to think about. We've gone up and down in membership over the years and in the past when we were about max'd out of space someone would move away, or leave for some more unhappy reason. Not a great way to open up pew space. I started a thread which got little feedback on what folks thought are good church building solutions, and I am still interested in any opinions since the elders and deacons are still fact gathering.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 4, 2006)

Matt, we need a plant here!


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## JOwen (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> I also agree with you that a "denomination" composed of one congregation, by definition, cannot be considered presbyterian. An independent congregation with or without a session cannot properly call themselves a presbytery, and a presbytery is necessary for a church to be part of a presbyterian denomination. "Presbytery" is not synonymous with "session."
> ...



If memory serves, there are less than 40 communicant members _worldwide_ in the RPNA. Their last Communion Season in Edmonton had folks fly in from various corners of the continent for the "event". At this time they have one TE (Greg Price) and two RE's (Dohms and Barrow). To say that this is a denomination is almost as funny as saying it is a presbytery! Price lives in NY and Barrow and Dohms in Alberta. There is not even a "session" to speak of in the settled state. As far as I know there is not, nor hs there ever been a single deacon either. Their website is misleading if they are trying to pass off these 7 places as Churches when in actual fact they are at most, "society meetings" with no officers at all.

Kind regards,

Jerrold Lewis
Vancouver

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by JOwen]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JOwen_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



I concur. It has been some years since I was associated with the Edmonton group. Their ecclesiology, like that of other similar "independent Presbyterian" groups referenced here, is irregular and, as MDB said, highly ironic.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Peter (Jan 4, 2006)

The bible doesnt prescribe a minimum requirement of elders for a judicature. As a member of the RPCNA I will not be so quick to judge, seeing my church rose from similiar circumstances.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> The bible doesnt prescribe a minimum requirement of elders for a judicature. As a member of the RPCNA I will not be so quick to judge, seeing my church rose from similiar circumstances.



The definition of a presbytery requires multiple congregations. Congregations require a session to become a church rather than a "society meeting." That means at least a minimum of one elder. One congregation does not make a presbytery. One session does not equal a presbytery. A single congregation is not equivalent to a denomination. A single congregation with elders may organically unite to another congregation and thus become a presbytery, but I would say that two congregations are the minimum threshold for a presbytery. 

This is not to say that such groups (assuming a minimum of one elder and all other things being lawful) are not churches, but it goes too far to say they are denominations or presbyteries. 

I am aware of the history of the RPCNA. The first RPCNA congregation was formed in 1743. However, the first RPCNA presbytery was not formed until 1774 (the RPCNA synod was formed in 1798). That is the difference I am seeking to clarify.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 4, 2006)

Strike 'em from Chris B's 'Presbyterian' list then. If our church believed in long distance membership, and we don't, we could be twice the size we are I suspect (as it is if Jerrold´s numbers are accurate we are twice the size of the RPNA just on membership/adherents). And actually, if we were American imperialists we could have had around 30 churches join us from Burma at one point. As it is our one church is as large or larger than most of the so named Micro Presbyterian groups whether they have one congregation or several; maybe save a few of the bigger ones. And actually while many here would debate it, our elders, while granting we are in many ways deficient in our polity, would contend we are still within the pale of Presbyterianism, because we have Presbyterian stds, are governed by elders, and have avenue for judicial appeals, via synodical agreements with other denomination(s) (plural once we have an agreement with Hanover RPC, which is hoped for). Ironically at one time we considered splitting FPCR into three churches, but decided that just being able to fill out the Presbytery again with multiple locals but the same number of elders spread out amongst them was not enough justification to do that. Again, we are not content with where we are, and we continue to work to improve our situation. All that said, Chris, as long as we make the list I don´t care where you put us!


> _Originally posted by JOwen_
> If memory serves, there are less than 40 communicant members _worldwide_ in the RPNA. Their last Communion Season in Edmonton had folks fly in from various corners of the continent for the "event". At this time they have one TE (Greg Price) and two RE's (Dohms and Barrow). To say that this is a denomination is almost as funny as saying it is a presbytery! Price lives in NY and Barrow and Dohms in Alberta. There is not even a "session" to speak of in the settled state. As far as I know there is not, nor hs there ever been a single deacon either. Their website is misleading if they are trying to pass off these 7 places as Churches when in actual fact they are at most, "society meetings" with no officers at all. Kind regards, Jerrold Lewis Vancouver [Edited on 1-4-2006 by JOwen]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jan 4, 2006)

RPCNA
RPCGA
ARPC
PRC
OPC













PCA


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jan 4, 2006)

The PCA has many bulwarks of the Reformed faith, but in my experience, finding one near you is not always possible. So, for someone looking for a "sure thing" anywhere in the country, I'd suggest the other denominations first.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JOwen_
> If memory serves, there are less than 40 communicant members _worldwide_ in the RPNA. Their last Communion Season in Edmonton had folks fly in from various corners of the continent for the "event". At this time they have one TE (Greg Price) and two RE's (Dohms and Barrow). To say that this is a denomination is almost as funny as saying it is a presbytery! Price lives in NY and Barrow and Dohms in Alberta. There is not even a "session" to speak of in the settled state. As far as I know there is not, nor hs there ever been a single deacon either. Their website is misleading if they are trying to pass off these 7 places as Churches when in actual fact they are at most, "society meetings" with no officers at all.



Thanks for mentioning this information, Jerrold. On their site, they do indeed list no more than three elders, and say "Below is a listing of all the churches and societies in the Presbytery where more than one family is meeting together," thus admitting to the true status of many of their congregations as mere "societies."


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> The PCA has many bulwarks of the Reformed faith, but in my experience, finding one near you is not always possible. So, for someone looking for a "sure thing" anywhere in the country, I'd suggest the other denominations first.



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're referring to by "the other denominations," but regarding the five additional ones you mentioned above, the PCA has more congregations than any of them.


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## JohnV (Jan 5, 2006)

Chris:

How many Continental Reformed denominations are there in North America? And how many are offshoots from pre-existing North American denominations? ( E.g., URC comes out of the CRC; HRC from NRC, etc. ) And how would you classify the CanRC, which began a new denomination, but not out of an existing North American ( Canadian ) denomination? This set of questions just hit me last night, and got me wondering.


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## Mike (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...


I think he was not trying to claim that there are few PCA churches, but that finding one that is a bulwark of the Reformed faith was hard, even though finding one at all might not be. 

I first read it like you did, but this way would have it make sense with a view that is at least under many opinions consistent with reality.

[Edited on 1-5-2006 by Mike]


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

Ahh, got it. From what I've heard from many people's experience, I unfortunately couldn't disagree with that to too great an extent, even though my own experience with PCA churches in the two cities in which I ever reside at the moment has fortunately been completely different.


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## Mike (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Ahh, got it. From what I've heard from many people's experience, I unfortunately couldn't disagree with that to too great an extent, even though my own experience with PCA churches in the two cities in which I ever reside at the moment has fortunately been completely different.


I'd imagine it depends in large part with what your're looking for.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...



Well, if it's weekly occurence of _both_ faithful expository preaching from whole books of the Bible _and_ topical preaching on issues like the five points and Covenant Theology, _both_ types of weekly preaching being experimental, a high view of the sacraments, worship that is faithful to the Regulative Principle provided one is not EP, an eldership that regularly meets with all members in designated groups, and educating classes on Scripture, the confessional standards and other Reformed issues, a definite priority for missions, as well as a body of members that are eager to serve each other on a constant basis, I've certainly found what I'm looking for in my home PCA church in Memphis - as well as the PCA church I attend whenever I visit back in Cincinnati, actually.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 5, 2006)

Wow; I lost my breath reading this; hoping for a period.


> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Well, if it's weekly occurence of _both_ faithful expository preaching from whole books of the Bible _and_ topical preaching on issues like the five points and Covenant Theology, _both_ types of weekly preaching being experimental, a high view of the sacraments, worship that is faithful to the Regulative Principle provided one is not EP, an eldership that regularly meets with all members in designated groups, and educating classes on Scripture, the confessional standards and other Reformed issues, a definite priority for missions, as well as a body of members that are eager to serve each other on a constant basis, I've certainly found what I'm looking for in my home PCA church in Memphis - as well as the PCA church I attend whenever I visit back in Cincinnati, actually.


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

I guess I got into a sort of Chesterton mode in my writing of that prose!


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## CalsFarmer (Jan 5, 2006)

Mid Cities OPC
Mid Cities OPC
Mid Cities OPC
Mid Cities OPC
Mid Cities OPC

 

Wayne that IS Right...right?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> Chris:
> 
> How many Continental Reformed denominations are there in North America? And how many are offshoots from pre-existing North American denominations? ( E.g., URC comes out of the CRC; HRC from NRC, etc. ) And how would you classify the CanRC, which began a new denomination, but not out of an existing North American ( Canadian ) denomination? This set of questions just hit me last night, and got me wondering.



I'm not too familiar with the history of most of them in terms of what church they came from, other than the two basic ones you mentioned. Likewise, I don't know any more about the factors surrounding the CanRC's founding, I simply know it is a confessional Reformed church in North America that has not sold out or watered down.

Right now, the main Continental Reformed denominations in North America of which I am aware are those I mentioned in my initial post:

Canadian and American Reformed Churches (http://www.canrc.org)
Free Reformed Churches of North America (http://www.frcna.org)
Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations (http://www.hnrc.org/gr/Find_A_Church/find_a_church.html)
Hungarian Reformed Church in America (http://www.calvinsynod.org/church/location.htm)
Orthodox Christian Reformed Church (http://www.burlingtonocrc.com/directory.html)
Protestant Reformed Churches in America (http://www.prca.org)
Reformed Church in the United States (http://www.rcus.org)
Reformed Church of QuÃ©bec (http://www.erq.qc.ca)
United Reformed Churches in North America (http://www.urcna.org)

I, too, would be interested in know about others.


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## JohnV (Jan 6, 2006)

As I understand it, of the Continental Reformed in North America, the RCA was first, and oldest. Then the CRC. Of the ones you listed, only HNRC, URC, and OCRC are split-offs from other denominations, while the rest, as far as I know, are original. The CRC formed by one classis, deciding it did not want to be affiliated with the RCA, so instead of joining they formed what is now the CRC. So technically it is not a split-off, though effectively it amounts the same thing. The PRC split off the CRC in the Twenties, as I recall. That would make four, though I'm not sure about their present status. As I recall, some of them rejoined the CRC, and some merged with the FRC. ( I'm just going off memory on all these. )

The interesting thing is that over the past hundred years and more there have been relatively few new-found denominations formed from existing Continental Reformed churches. I'm sure there are more, but its not like they are split-happy. If you consider also that the Presbyterian churches are hundreds of years old, it would seem somewhat comparable. The splits of late, in the Twentieth Century, seem to be of a different sort. What the Dutch churches on the European Continent went through in the Nineteenth Century is what the Presbyterian churches went through in the early, mid, and later Twentieth Century. Its not, then, related to being Reformed as it is a cultural invasion all over the ecclesiastical map, some taking one course, some another in response to the changes introduced by cultural imbibing. 

Just a rough impression from your list, Chris.


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## fredtgreco (Jan 6, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



To be more specific:

If one thought that the PCA was composed of 90% unattendable churches, the number of attendables would still be nearly double that of the combined number of all congregations of the other denominations.

I'm not exactly sure what Bobby wants from his original question - the thread has moved a bit since then - but it really does not do anyone practical good to say "well of course there is a good Presbyterian denomination. You simply have to move 1500 miles to be near one."


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## Peter (Jan 6, 2006)

Fred, the same could probably be said of the PC-USA which is far larger than the PCA and has a strong confessional movement


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## fredtgreco (Jan 6, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> Fred, the same could probably be said of the PC-USA which is far larger than the PCA and has a strong confessional movement



Actually, Peter,

I don't think so. Even the strong Confessing Movement churches are far removed from the WCF, and do not really even attempt to subscribe to it.

I just don't think that is an analogy that works. My point is that evn though the PCA has some problematic churches, in general it is a Confessional denomination. Not perfect, but Confessional.

Again, I am not sure that the original intention was to say who is the "best" or "most Confessional" - that could be argued about _ad nauseam_. I took Bobby's intent as "where would you recommend to someone looking for a church." To that end, if a denomination has no churches in an entire state - often in a multiple state area - and I mean none, not no "good ones," what use is it to recommend it as a denomination for that purpose?


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## rmwilliamsjr (Mar 24, 2006)

is the information from this thread posted as a webpage somewhere so we can refer people to it with questions?

i found another list at:
http://www.tateville.com/churches.html

but not this one.

there is a thread on the PCA at:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2824408-the-pca.html

that has me doing a little quick research on the splits in the conservative churches. can anyone point to a thread or webpage that discusses this issue? particularly interested in the right side PCA splits.

[Edited on 3-25-2006 by rmwilliamsjr]


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## beej6 (Mar 25, 2006)

FYI, see my webpage for a simple list of links. It's probably more inclusive than some of the suggestions above, but I had a specific purpose for putting this list together...


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## calgal (Apr 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by JohnV_
> ...



The Netherlands Reformed are another continental church.  They are not the same as Joel Beeke's denomination. 

[Edited on 4-9-2006 by calgal]


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## beej6 (Apr 9, 2006)

I don't believe the Netherlands Reformed have a website...

If I'm reading my issues of _Christian Renewal_ right, the CanRC and the URC are pursuing church union fairly seriously.


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