# Ephesians 4:11



## Romans922 (Aug 21, 2009)

I found this interesting, tell me what you think.

As it has to do with the the gifts Christ has given in Ephesians 4:11, Paul says they are "Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers"

1- Apostles
2- Prophets
3- Evangelists
4- Pastors/teachers

In our modern times, commentaries believe the first two have ceased (apostles, prophets), the latter two are continuing (evangelists, pastors/teachers).

But reading the old dead guys, you find people like Matthew Henry say, that apostles, prophets, and evangelists are extraordinary gifts; pastors/teachers are ordinary. 

John Gill says the same thing. Both say that evangelists were assistants of the apostles. 

John Calvin says in his commentary, "Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets were bestowed on the church for a limited time only..."

Seemingly they imply that the first 3 gifts have ceased, contrary to modern theologians.

So is the gift of 'evangelist' ceased? I'm not talking about missionaries, I'm talking about the gift given by Christ through the Holy Spirit. 

And was 'evangelist' a gift just given to men? Or women too? If Paul is talking about the whole body of Christ, why are all the gifts he refers to here given to men only??? (if that is indeed the case) Where are the gifts for the women?


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## Edward (Aug 21, 2009)

Let's muddy the water and throw in another comma:

Hee therefore gaue some to be Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Euangelists, and some Pastours, and Teachers,

"Some take these two names to signify one office, implying the duties of ruling and teaching belonging to it. Others think they design two distinct offices, both ordinary, and of standing use in the church; and then pastors are such as are fixed at the head of particular churches, with design to guide, instruct, and feed them in the manner appointed by Christ; and they are frequently called bishops and elders: and the teachers were those whose work it was also to preach the gospel and to instruct the people by way of exhortation. "
--Matthew Henry's Commentary
Commentary on the Whole Bible Volume VI (Acts to Revelation) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library


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## Wannabee (Aug 21, 2009)

First, it should be noted that taking pastors and teachers synonymously is a misuse of Sharps' rule. Plurals are excluded. 

I would perceive this as a set/subset relationship. 

Apostles are prophets
Prophets are evangelists
Evangelists are pastors
Pastors are teachers
There are teachers who are not pastors

Apostles, by definition, cannot exist unless they witness the resurrected Savior.
Prophets appear to have ceased with the writing of the Bible.
I _think _that evangelists were those whose purpose was to proclaim the great tiding before the NT was written. Such men would need divine revelation in order to understand the truth in such a way as to proclaim it fully to the lost. There is obviously room for error, but that's what I propose.
Pastors and teachers are for today.

As for women
Acts 2:17-18
17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.


Acts 21:9
9Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.


1 Corinthians 11:5
5But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
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## Romans922 (Aug 22, 2009)

okay, thanks for ruining the thread.

REALLY forget about the pastors/teachers (note calvin, henry, gill, lloyd-jones all disagree that these are two separate).

EVANGELISTS has the gift ceased?


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## MW (Aug 22, 2009)

The Form of Church Government: "The officers which Christ hath appointed for the edification of his church, and the perfecting of the saints, are, some extraordinary, as apostles, evangelists, and prophets, which are ceased. Others ordinary and perpetual, as pastors, teachers, and other church-governors, and deacons."


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## Wannabee (Aug 22, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> okay, thanks for ruining the thread.



I really hope that was supposed to be a joke.


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