# "Didn't learn grammar until I studied Greek"



## cih1355 (May 15, 2008)

Recently, I heard someone at my church say that he did not learn grammar well until he studied Greek. He said that he did not know what a participle was until he learned Greek. I think that this is sad. Any thoughts?


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## DMcFadden (May 15, 2008)

I agree. (California schools . . . sigh)


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## bookslover (May 15, 2008)

My experience watching my fellow students back in my beginning Greek days is that people could learn Greek (or any language) with a lot less pain if they were familiar with English grammar - and English grammatical terms.

If someone doesn't know what an adverb is in English, he's not going to know what one is in Greek.

I think beginning Greek grammars should include a definition of basic grammatical terms: verbs, adverbs, participles, etc.


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## AV1611 (May 15, 2008)

I have been learning Hebrew and I have the same problem, we were never taught grammar!!


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## JohnOwen007 (May 15, 2008)

Yes, I'm another that knew no grammar until I learned the biblical languages. I can't speak for the US but in Australia our current education system has seen much better days.

Rote learning (which isn't always a good thing but is necessary at points) is frowned upon and pragmatics rules. Alas.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 15, 2008)

cih1355 said:


> Recently, I heard someone at my church say that he did not learn grammar well until he studied Greek. He said that he did not know what a participle was until he learned Greek. I think that this is sad. Any thoughts?



I was in the same boat as your acquaintance at church. I did not have a grasp on English grammar and it hurt me in that regard. Thankfully our Professor knew that the majority of us had bad educations and gave us an English grammar booklet at the beginning of the term.


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## Davidius (May 15, 2008)

Yep, same story here. In most public high schools "English" class deals only with literature, very little with the English language itself, if at all. I only began to learn grammar because of Latin.


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## ChristopherPaul (May 15, 2008)

I know some people who are from India who have children who do not know how to speak or understand the English language. They said they are not worried; their kids will learn English when they go to school and have English class.

Boy are they in for a wake up call.


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## Romans922 (May 15, 2008)

That was my experience as well.


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## turmeric (May 15, 2008)

This is why I like the Classical School method - with an ancient language taught during primary grades, and a living foreign language in the upper level. Wish I'd learned Latin or Greek when I was a little kid.


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## greenbaggins (May 15, 2008)

I am very fortunate to have parents who know grammar well. I do think it is much easier to learn Latin, Greek, and Hebrew if one has a solid grasp of the English language. However, grammar education today is in a shocking state. I remember my first year of college, when I was attending a community college, going to an English class where we were supposed to critique each other's work on the basis of getting the structure of an essay clearly outlined. My colleagues could not even put together a complete English sentence. And they were in college!  To quote the learned professor, "I wonder what what they _do_ teach them in these schools."


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## JBaldwin (May 15, 2008)

I think it is much easier to study any foreign language if you understand English grammar. 

I had no idea that they were not teaching English grammar in public high schools. I went to a private school where it was drilled into my head until I was sick of it. When I took German and French, I found the grammar part to be easy. I am home schooling my children, and we spend a good chunk of the day learning grammar before they get to high school.


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## BobVigneault (May 15, 2008)

This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.

Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.

Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.


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## Davidius (May 15, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.
> 
> Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.
> 
> Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.



It's not totally dead! I'm going to a conference this summer at the University of Kentucky at which we will be speaking only Latin for an entire week, in and out of the seminars. Advanced Latin students and teachers from all over will be in attendance. Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).


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## py3ak (May 15, 2008)

I remember a particularly long, tense day in homeschooling when finally something clicked in my brain and grammar was at least a navigable tangle. It made Russian and Greek a lot easier.


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## JohnOwen007 (May 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).



Ah, a man after my own heart! I

My proposal is that reinstall Latin as the international language (just like the 16-17th centuries).

Perhaps the PB can soon have all it's discussions in that magnificent language ...


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## Davidius (May 15, 2008)

JohnOwen007 said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).
> ...



Having an international language for things like travel, trade and literature is a wonderful thing. English seems to have become that language, but we have thereby cut ourselves off from Western culture's rich history. It should definitely be reinstated. 

And now for a shameless advertisement: http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/there-market-online-tutoring-32427/


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## BobVigneault (May 15, 2008)

That's amazing David. I had no idea things like that went on. People try to say it's dead but now and then.....

I was coming home late one night and I came upon a van stuck in the mud. The emergency workers were trying to help but the frightened passengers, a van load of pharmacists, were unable to understand. I stopped and was able to calm them down and translate for the emergency workers.

Rident stolidi verba Latina!





Davidius said:


> It's not totally dead! I'm going to a conference this summer at the University of Kentucky at which we will be speaking only Latin for an entire week, in and out of the seminars. Advanced Latin students and teachers from all over will be in attendance. Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 15, 2008)

This sounds normal; I am only starting to understand grammar nowadays. It was a mystery to me at school.


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## jawyman (May 15, 2008)

This is why I liked Mounce when I was first learning Greek. Mounce believes if you don't understand English grammar, you are going to have a hard time learning Greek or any other language for that matter.
I like that Mounce would in Basics of Biblical Greek cover some English grammar, before going into the Greek.


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## bookslover (May 15, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> That's amazing David. I had no idea things like that went on. People try to say it's dead but now and then.....
> 
> I was coming home late one night and I came upon a van stuck in the mud. The emergency workers were trying to help but the frightened passengers, a van load of pharmacists, were unable to understand. I stopped and was able to calm them down and translate for the emergency workers.
> 
> Rident stolidi verba Latina!



Does anyone know who among the ancient Roman writers had the most difficult Latin style?

Plus: Desi Arnaz was (a) Latin!


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## Zenas (May 15, 2008)

I'm in law school and I don't know what a participle is. 

I made A+'s on my papers all through undergrad too. I get little to no points off on my papers in my legal writing class due to grammar, only improper style (which is entirely subjective to the professor). *fumes* 

Literature is taught in school and, while I love the _Odessey_, they should have been teaching us sentence structure and how to diagram sentences.

If you get Mounce's _Greek for the Rest of Us_, in one of the lessons he gives a crash course in English grammar in order to understand the Greek.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (May 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.
> ...



 _Atque memento, nulli adsunt Romanorum qui locutionem tuam corrigant._


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## fredtgreco (May 15, 2008)

bookslover said:


> Does anyone know who among the ancient Roman writers had the most difficult Latin style?



That's a subjective question, but I think often it is the poets. Catullus or one of the Roman Comedic poets comes to mind. But even in the same genre, the differences can be staggering. Livy (easy) and Tacitus (really hard) come to mind.





BobVigneault said:


> This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.
> 
> Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.
> 
> Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.



Wheelock is the best.


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## Davidius (May 15, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know who among the ancient Roman writers had the most difficult Latin style?
> ...



I've also heard that Tacitus is one of the most difficult.



BobVigneault said:


> This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.
> 
> Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.
> 
> Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.





Fred said:


> Wheelock is the best.


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## fredtgreco (May 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I've also heard that Tacitus is one of the most difficult.



But no where near as hard (relatively speaking) as Thucydides.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 15, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.
> 
> Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.
> 
> Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.



Awesome stuff Bob. I as well plan on supplementing my kids education with Latin, and maybe Hebrew and Greek. How old did/are you starting yours with it? By the way anyone else have experience with this?


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## Davidius (May 15, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > I've also heard that Tacitus is one of the most difficult.
> ...



In the Fall I'll have one course of Pliny and Tacitus, another solely of Horace. Thucydides is a little further down the line (I'll probably be reading Xenophon in the Fall).


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## fredtgreco (May 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Davidius said:
> ...



Ah, memories for me. That was almost 20 years ago. Are you going to be reading _Agricola_?


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## Davidius (May 16, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > fredtgreco said:
> ...



Nope, the Annals.


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