# Best undergraduate education?



## imaresqd1 (Jul 14, 2014)

My son will be going to college in the fall of 2015. We are looking at various schools that are are truly Christian (as opposed to Christian-in-name-only) and have a decent STEM program. A number of years ago, there were some informative threads on Grove City, Geneva and Covenant. These schools are all high on the list. I was wondering if anyone had any comments/observations about these schools as well as LeTourneau and similar schools on the West Coast? (If there is a chance of playing basketball, so much the better. For what it's worth, CalTech has been talking to him about options there - an option if a quality church is in Pasadena.) Thanks.


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## Hamalas (Jul 14, 2014)

Stem?


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## mossy (Jul 14, 2014)

Science Technology Engineering Math


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 14, 2014)

Liberty perhaps?


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## Jake (Jul 14, 2014)

Hi Pastor,

I'll offer my two cents as a rising senior at Covenant College going into a STEM field. 

First of all, my top recommendation for any college looking back is to ensure there is a faithful church nearby. Many students come into a Christian college looking for what a church should offer. I think it is often best to go to somewhere near home (especially a commuter school if one is available) and stay involved in your local church and family while at school. This is especially the case for STEM, where you want to ensure you are getting a good education and good opportunities in addition to the worldview.

That said, I have really enjoyed my time at Covenant College overall. I'll speak to the STEM part primarily, although I would be happy to discuss it's shortcomings and benefits in other areas as well.

The Computer Science program is excellent if you're interested. The professors, Drs. Hunt and Humphries, are both excellent teachers with strong educational background and work experience. I am only doing a minor in CS officially (I’ll be taking some classes beyond what is required) with a major in Economics, but already I have had many opportunities to work. I have interned this summer in a good position and I had multiple offers available, many which were helped to be procured by these same professors, and I have already begun interviewing for work in the fall. Pretty much all of the graduates that seek after jobs with CS majors are able to get jobs from my understanding. So in that respect, you are well prepared.

The classes are very good, with both professors placing a lot of emphasis on projects. The classes are not as rigorous as they could be in terms of highly technical material (it depends on the class, I haven’t taken as many high level CS courses), but you learn the skills well. Faith integration often plays out well in these classes as well.

Our engineering program is also quite good and difficult—many more students start it than finish it. However, there is not a full engineering degree at Covenant. We have a dual degree program, usually with Georgia Tech, which allows students to get a BA from Covenant and a BS from an engineering school in 5 years. This could be a good option for someone wanting both experiences.

I have a good impression of our natural sciences programs. I know that the chemistry professors are both members of my church, Drs. Zuidema and Mehne, and good godly men. The latter serves as an elder. In general, I have an impression that the science department is more conservative than even the Bible department, although I do not know that those in the biology department are literal 6/24 creationists. 

The math program is not so developed, with only one professor and some adjuncts and professors from other departments picking up the rest. I would not recommend Covenant to study math.

I don’t know if you count Economics in STEM, but I will be happy to speak to you about Economics if you’re interested.

All professors across disciplines are required to submit to the Westminster Standards, although a wide degree of exceptions are allowed both on paper and in practice. Even so, Covenant is the only liberal arts college I know of that requires this. Being a liberal arts college, there are a lot of interesting courses to take outside of STEM courses as well, and required Bible courses. I will warn that there is quite the spectrum of Reformed thought at Covenant, from radical two kingdoms to Neo-Calvinist, pre-, a-, and post-millenialists, classical apologists and strong presuppositional apologists, and so on. There are less professors of the most conservative bent at the college. Furthermore, chapel tends to disregard the regulative principal of worship and the speakers range from very solid pastors and teachers to heretics (e.g., last semester there was a Romanist and a PCUSA minister). 

There are many good students at the college, but there are those who are less serious in their faith as well, and getting in the wrong crowd can be dangerous. That said, I’m very grateful for many of the friends I have made at Covenant and many of the strong relationships I have with professors.

As far as churches, there are quite a few PCA churches across the spectrum, an OPC, and a few EPC as far as Presbyterian churches. There are a couple of churches I would highly recommend if you’re interested. There are also some confessional Reformed Baptist churches in Chattanooga, a primitive Baptist, and various Calvinistic Baptist/non-denomination churches around. I don’t know too much about them, however. 

Let me know if you have any questions and I can try to answer them!


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## Jake (Jul 14, 2014)

By the way, another school I would very tentatively suggest to look at is Dordt College. They are a more conservative institution in a moderate, but historically Reformed, denomination. I am not sure how explicitly Christian they are (I hear mixed things), but I do know they have an Engineering program that is pretty good: Dordt College: Reformed, Christian College Education

Another is Taylor. My only basis of recommendation is that I know they have a good CS program, and there are quite a few Taylor students and grads from the CS program where I am interning. They are non-denominational, but explicitly Christian. I don't know if there are good churches nearby. Taylor University | Distinctive Christian College in Indiana - Taylor University


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## Edward (Jul 14, 2014)

If he isn't mature enough to be out of the cocoon, perhaps he'd be better off taking a couple of years off (or in community college) and then go for the best program he can get in (and can afford) at that point. 

If he can get in one of the top programs, I wouldn't send him to a school that isn't known for its programs in that field. 

Cal Tech, MIT, CMU, CWRU, Rice, Ga Tech would all be top notch options.


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## arapahoepark (Jul 14, 2014)

Jake said:


> First of all, my top recommendation for any college looking back is to ensure there is a faithful church nearby. Many students come into a Christian college looking for what a church should offer. I think it is often best to go to somewhere near home (especially a commuter school if one is available) and stay involved in your local church and family while at school. This is especially the case for STEM, where you want to ensure you are getting a good education and good opportunities in addition to the worldview.



This. It has worked quite well for me.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 14, 2014)

By the way, Virginia Tech is a great school with good Churches nearby and an RUF ministry on campus.


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## iainduguid (Jul 15, 2014)

imaresqd1 said:


> My son will be going to college in the fall of 2015. We are looking at various schools that are are truly Christian (as opposed to Christian-in-name-only) and have a decent STEM program. A number of years ago, there were some informative threads on Grove City, Geneva and Covenant. These schools are all high on the list. I was wondering if anyone had any comments/observations about these schools as well as LeTourneau and similar schools on the West Coast? (If there is a chance of playing basketball, so much the better. For what it's worth, CalTech has been talking to him about options there - an option if a quality church is in Pasadena.) Thanks.



Grove City has an excellent ABET accredited engineering program and a brand new STEM building. It requires the students to complete a liberal arts degree as well, so it is a challenging 4 years. The Biblical and Religious Studies department is consistently reformed, and there are various good churches nearby. I've found it a wonderful place to teach over the past eight years and all of our children have benefited from studying there. I'll be sad to leave next year to move over to Westminster in Philly, but I'm confident that Grove City will continue to be a good choice. The new president is an excellent choice, too.

Feel free to PM me for more questions.


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## jwithnell (Jul 15, 2014)

Va Tech has a reputation for chewing up all but the most mature of Christian students.


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## Philip (Jul 15, 2014)

I can second Jake's endorsement of Covenant, as an alum. There's also an excellent PCA church across the street from campus. The science departments are small but well-regarded regionally (I recall hearing that Vanderbilt is known to inflate the grades on transcripts from Covenant when considering applications).


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## Logan (Jul 15, 2014)

I visited LeTourneau and didn't care for the mandatory chapel (which to my mind was pretty shallow and emotionally-driven).

When I was looking at colleges I looked a couple of Christian ones but decided that I would prefer to go to a university that was unabashedly atheist than one who claimed to be Christian but taught truth mixed with error. I thought it would be easier for me to distinguish things that were clearly wrong rather than ones I was told I was only "prejudiced" against. In retrospect I think that was a good decision, although in my field (electrical engineering) one only deals indirectly with worldly philosophy. I don't know I would recommend that for an art or history major for example, but for STEM that might be a consideration.

I would strongly encourage finding a university that has a good church nearby. RUF and other groups can be good, but they are no substitute for being active in a solid, vibrant, local church.


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## whirlingmerc (Jul 15, 2014)

Which school 'is best' will depend heavily on the strengths and needs of the student. If possible spend a day there and go to classes and chapel and talk to students and faculty.

Which is most important? Opportunity for research? Opportunity for christian leadership of a group? Being challenged? Doctrine? Views of creation? Views of uses of Psalms? Missional views? Political interactions. Economic considerations for part time work? Sports? You might like Patrick Henry, Cedarville, Lancaster bible Colllege, Generva, or others... depending on what a student needs to match their strengths or complement their weaknesses Some students thrive well in Christian groups in a public university that has a good college church.

Maybe ask the same question of a student group like RUF (Reformed university fellowship) or Disciplemakers


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## Romans922 (Jul 15, 2014)

More than a Christian college I would be looking for a good church to be a part of. Most parents/kids focus on the school to the neglect of the church. Same for moving for a job, church is decided after they move. You should be looking at colleges that will give a good education in the area desired, when you find those colleges before applying, look for good churches.


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## imaresqd1 (Jul 16, 2014)

Thank you to all who have posted. I appreciate the consistent advice about looking for a church nearby - it is one of my key questions when asking about living in any area. While I would love having my son at home, staying in our part of Alaska does not seem wise for him. He seems wise enough to handle this transition - on his own initiative, he actively sought out local input and transportation to attend church while at an athletic event far from home this summer.

We are looking at a variety of options & are looking at Christian groups (RUF, etc.) at the secular schools. The Pennsylvania schools have the advantage of nearby family, so they are high on any college list that has been generated. He has a number of full scholarship offers to public and *Christian* schools as well, so data collection and prayer will be vital in order to sort out all options, especially since distance limits the number of campus visits we can take to the Lower 48.

My follow-up question comes from this observation:


Jake said:


> First of all, my top recommendation for any college looking back is to ensure there is a faithful church nearby. Many students come into a Christian college looking for what a church should offer.


Having never been to a Christian school, I don't have a solid understanding of the dynamic between the two. What are many students looking for in a Christian school? What should they be looking for? If you could elaborate, I would be appreciative - it will give us the seed for a good discussion at my house.

Thanks again


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## Philip (Jul 16, 2014)

imaresqd1 said:


> Having never been to a Christian school, I don't have a solid understanding of the dynamic between the two.



It's very easy at a Christian school (whether undergraduate or seminary) to treat it as if it were the church and thereby to neglect the church. Such institutions may serve the church, but they are not the church. For example, the chapel services at these schools can easily be confused with the biblical call to worship by students. I had friends who would rationalize skipping church on the Lord's Day with "I got my preaching in chapel this week." Involvement in a local body of believers is essential for spiritual health in any context, but I think especially in college/seminary.


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## ChristianHedonist (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm a LeTourneau alum (2010, B.S. Engineering, biomedical concentration). Their engineering and computer science programs are solid. The school is broadly evangelical, but largely conservative and students were generally serious about their faith when I attended. There is an OPC congregation nearby that I can highly commend. The basketball team is division 3. I wouldn't recommend there math or natural/physical science programs too highly, and their arts/humanities classes vary in quality, but overall it was a positive and formative experience for me and prepared me to be well-employed in my field.

Let me know if you have any additional questions specific to LeTourneau.


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## Edward (Jul 16, 2014)

imaresqd1 said:


> The Pennsylvania schools have the advantage of nearby family



CMU might be worth a look if he doesn't have to pay retail.


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