# The Trinity and Race



## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

I found this article by Christ Ortiz to be very interesting, especially this quote:



> A white baby is in need of adoption, and two families would like to raise the child. Both families are white, and are virtually of the same status economically, emotionally, geographically, and spiritually. Which family shall the baby go with? It's difficult to say because either one would be ideal. However, let's say the baby in need of adoption is black, and the two families seeking to adopt are also equal in all respects with one exception: one family is white while the other is black. Which family shall the baby go with? If you said, "either one," you're likely in denial. If you said, "the black family," you've taken the first step towards genuine racial understanding. Why should the black baby go with the black family? Because race matters.


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

And your point???


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## ReformedWretch (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> And your point???




Especially in regard to the trinity......


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## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> And your point???



Inter-racial adoptions are becoming pretty popular these days, and Mr. Ortiz' point is that *race matters*. He seems to be in the minority - I generally hear that either a) there is no such thing as race, or b) race is inconsequential. I would be interested in hearing others' opinions on Ortiz' article.


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## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



The One and the Many question...


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## ReformedWretch (May 2, 2006)

Race doesn't matter. I've worked with teenagers for years now and the only thing you have to take into consideration is culture. Even then only on ocasion. How you are raised makes a big difference (culture) but race doesn't at all. I honestly believe I have some authority on the subject in order to say that as well.


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## BobVigneault (May 2, 2006)

I agree with Adam, there are only two races, Adam's and Christ's, satan's kingdom and the Kingdom of God. Skin tone doesn't define race. The differences are cultural and culture matters.


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## Casey (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> I agree with Adam, there are only two races, Adam's and Christ's, satan's kingdom and the Kingdom of God. Skin tone doesn't define race. The differences are cultural and culture matters.




Or, put differently, but with a similar point in regard to this question of adoption, there is only one race -- humanity.

Those who want to perpetuate race distinctions are only capitulating to a framework based on evolution.

I don't like it when I fill out forms that require me to mark my "race," because "human" is never an option! (And checking the "other" option isn't all that reassuring that they'll understand me!)


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## BaptistCanuk (May 2, 2006)

If they ask me "race" I put "Indy 500".


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## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> ...



Race is a modern term, but the Bible uses the term "nations" to describe different ethnic groups (races).


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Race doesn't matter. I've worked with teenagers for years now and the only thing you have to take into consideration is culture. Even then only on ocasion. How you are raised makes a big difference (culture) but race doesn't at all. I honestly believe I have some authority on the subject in order to say that as well.



 on the race and cultural. Race isn't the issue...culture can be at times.

Examples...I was raised a third culture kid (means I was not raised within the culture of my parents or my national status). I am white. I came to the states and guess what...I couldn't get along with or be accepted by the white kids for anything. I was accepted by the black kids and by the black families. Because of the cultural issues of my parents however (my stepfather being a 'racial separatist') they were smart enough to keep our friendship on the side, protect me at school where they could, and at the same time appear as though they weren't too close to me (even though I would hide out at their homes from time to time). Needless to say, I grew up pretty much in between cultures (another way of saying one is multicultural and has appreciation for the positives of each culture I have absorbed).

On the other hand where culture can come in is here in Lancaster County. Many of the anabaptists are adopting black children. This is a good thing. My ONLY concern is not the race of the child...but is the culture going to permit the permenance of these children? We shall see.

I believe there is racism on all sides (and yes, I'm one of those that acknowledges only one race). From each culture, even from each area (blacks in LA don't want anything to do with a black from E St L), and mixed couple racism (I'm not talking prejudice against them...there are actually groups for mixed couples that state they are creating a pure race and they are not to mix with anything else but other mixed families).

MHO, those who chose to segregate themselves...go do so, BUT don't claim a THUS saith the Lord issue, because you are way out in left field as far as scripture is concerned! Leave those that choose, or by nature of events, to do otherwise...let them. If God is truely in control, then what are you fighting against in this issue. God placed Adam in his role (he is most likely the minority...or at least was when he was closer to us). I have been the minority in one form or another most of my life. Sure these dutch only see that I'm 1/4 German, get excited, and want to include me...initially...but there are bigger differences that move WAY beyond me being 1/4 German. Am I proud of my heritage (southern/scottish)...you bet! And I have NEVER had a black friend tell me I was wrong for it! I am ALSO proud for having spent time overseas and for having been able to move around the country and in different cultural circles. (And I pick up accents so well! Actually got asked if I could speak dutch by my amish neighbour  yet you stick me with one of my friends from St L and, honey, the syrup just pours out!)


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Chad Degenhart_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian_
> ...



Wrong...most of the nations in that area, at that time, would have been considered the same 'race' by modern terms. A good European example is that the English thought the Scots were a different 'race' and tried to outbreed them (ie force the Scots' wives to bear their children to increase English blood and decrease Scottish blood). Yet, by modern terms we would assign them the "same race". Where do you want to draw the line??? On colour?! You go back far enough and you will have problems with that. If you want to simply go the "nations" route, then you still have a problem. We are all a mix somewhere. If you want to go with modern nations, then you have to accept that we are all americans here and accept a mixing of those with different amounts of melanin.

[Edited on 5-2-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian_
> I don't like it when I fill out forms that require me to mark my "race," because "human" is never an option! (And checking the "other" option isn't all that reassuring that they'll understand me!)



NK! Growing up I always wanted to defy it. Okay, I knew they were asking where I was on the colour scale (gag), but I wanted to put the culture I was most familiar with or the culture I enjoyed being around.


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## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Chad Degenhart_
> ...



No disagreement, I agree that the modern definiton of race is far too imprecise. 



> A good European example is that the English thought the Scots were a different 'race' and tried to outbreed them (ie force the Scots' wives to bear their children to increase English blood and decrease Scottish blood). Yet, by modern terms we would assign them the "same race".



The Scots were correct. 



> Where do you want to draw the line??? On colour?! You go back far enough and you will have problems with that. If you want to simply go the "nations" route, then you still have a problem. We are all a mix somewhere. If you want to go with modern nations, then you have to accept that we are all americans here and accept a mixing of those with different amounts of melanin.
> [Edited on 5-2-2006 by LadyFlynt]



The problem with defining the nations does not prove that they do not exist. 

America is not a nation, but technically an empire, which is many nations under a common political government:

Webster´s 1828 dictionary: "œNation, as its etymology imports, originally denoted a family or race of men descended from a common progenitor, like tribe, but by emigration, conquest and intermixture of men of different families, this distinction is in most countries lost." 

Also from Webster´s 1828 Dictionary: "œIt often happens that many nations are subject to one government; in which case, the word nation usually denotes a body of people speaking the same language, or a body that has formerly been under a distinct government, but has been conquered, or incorporated with a larger nation. Thus the empire of Russia comprehends many nations, as did formerly the Roman and Persian empires."


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## satz (May 2, 2006)

I do think that race matters, just not very much. As Bob said, the main distinction between people now is who is born again and who is not. Any other considerations no matter how legitimate are very secondary to this.

Simply from practical observation of life it would be impossible to deny there are races and racial differences, but i do not see that the new testament makes it at all an issue for christians.


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

Okay, still...big deal. You are making something out of nothing. If you want evidence, look at Christ's lineage. A protitute, a Moabite, Zipporah, etc. No where was there censorship in that and I believe it was intentional on God's part (as all things are). In this case...to speak against the kinist view that you are standing for.


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## BobVigneault (May 2, 2006)

It's pretty obvious that my son and I have the same dimples, therefore, same race.


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## Ambrose (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Okay, still...big deal. You are making something out of nothing. If you want evidence, look at Christ's lineage. A protitute, a Moabite, Zipporah, etc. No where was there censorship in that and I believe it was intentional on God's part (as all things are). In this case...to speak against the kinist view that you are standing for.



Thanks for your opinion. I was just wondering what people thought of the Trinity and Race article by Chris Ortiz, not realizing I was volunteering for a turn in the dunking booth. 

Has anyone actually read the article by Chris Ortiz, and if so, what do you think of it?


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

Yes, I actually DID read it...don't make assumptions.

And yes, you chose a touchy topic 

Bob, you crack me up...that is one cute kid and I can tell he has daddy's sense of humour!


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## BobVigneault (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Yes, I actually DID read it...don't make assumptions.
> 
> And yes, you chose a touchy topic
> ...




He really does and I'm quite proud of that. He is the apple of my eye. He waits at the door for me to get home. He runs and jumps into my arms and kisses me and says, "I love you daddy". Then we go biking or roller blading. 

When my neices come over - one Korean, one Thai, one from India, and 2 black girls from Milwaukee along with my 3 mocha beauties it looks like the UN. It's a tremendous thing.

Thanks for giving me an excuse to brag a bit.


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## LadyFlynt (May 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



Can't stand the UN...but love the spectrum.

My nieces and nephews are all 1/4 Filippino. So black hair that never splits and grows longer than any of my girls. My sil actually envies our spectrum...LOL! Her hubby has blue eyes and she knows she'll probably never have one with his eyes. Our spectrum is quite something...they range from one looking mediteranian (she actually is taking after the native american side in hubby) all the way to one that is totally scandinavian looking (like I was). I think I have pics in the photo forum.


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