# No Calvinism!



## JM (Jan 5, 2008)

Just think of all the work that went into the making of this...

Heads up No Calvinism .org.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 5, 2008)

Yep. Lots of bells and whistles there. However, it doesn't matter how elaborate the dress is that you put on a pig, it's still just a pig in a dress.


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## Poimen (Jan 5, 2008)

Here is another means for our confession to be propagated to the world. Perhaps some who have never really explored or considered these issues will eventually come to grips with sovereign grace, _despite_ the intent of the website.


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## MeanieCalvinist (Jan 5, 2008)

JM said:


> Just think of all the work that went into the making of this...
> 
> Heads up No Calvinism .org.



Doesn't look like they put much into this at ALL!!!!!


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 5, 2008)

If you notice - it leads you to Dan Corner, whom our brother James White has dealt with repeatedly...


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

The neat thing is that God caused them to put that up on a website!

"He who sits in the heavens laughs." Ps.2:1-4


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## Pilgrim's Progeny (Jan 5, 2008)

They are missing the big picture. They make false claims. Their claims fall short under the scrutiny of the Scriptures. It is like the one who takes a few snapshots of someone's life and says, "this is the sum of their life", when they are oblivios to 95% of what their life was really about. What a sad epitaph, what a waste.


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## VaughanRSmith (Jan 5, 2008)

It is definitely Dan Corner. His "evangelical outreach" site follows a very similar design. Pretty frontpage, cheap links.


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## DMcFadden (Jan 5, 2008)

All of that energy devoted to denying what the Bible teaches. The cocky self-confidence of those hiding behind the "apologetic" arguments of anti-Calvinism are sad.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> If you notice - it leads you to Dan Corner, whom our brother James White has dealt with repeatedly...



Doesn't surprise me. It's basically Romanism redux with the "degrees of sin".

Dan Corner doesn't sin in a way that leads to death. He just has worries that the enemy plants in his mind that he can't control.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 5, 2008)

Incidentally, my guess is that they just bought the Flash template and filled in the blanks. It really doesn't take that much work. The theme and the music don't really match up to the content.

Check out this guy to see how to make a decent flash site with a theme: Card Conjurer - Keeping Card Magic Classic


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## cih1355 (Jan 5, 2008)

Corner is saying that God does His part and believers contribute to their salvation by being faithful and persevering in the faith.


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## jbergsing (Jan 5, 2008)

Typical "evangelical" with their mile-wide, inch deep theology. He's been discredited by James White, if my mind isn't failing me. It's all flash (literally) with no substance.


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## sotzo (Jan 5, 2008)

Do any of these guys admit the logical conclusion of their thinking...that they don't know if they'll be with God in eternity or consigned to hell?


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## blhowes (Jan 5, 2008)

Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 5, 2008)

blhowes said:


> Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?



Because its Biblical, and it threatens human autonomy.


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## BJClark (Jan 5, 2008)

blhowes;



> Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?



Mostly because they want to say they have a part in choosing God, it's the pride of self, wanting to be in control of where they spend eternity, and not in the control of the God who created them.

I know, I battled against God with this in the past...and I continue to watch others try and do battle against God concerning this as well...it's either God saves us completely, or WE do SOMETHING to help God save us, because God is some how not fully capable of saving us or wouldn't want to save us because we are so sinful..even if we don't acknowledge it, that is the underlying belief that must be rooted out: 

Is God, God? or does He really need OUR help to save us? 

If God needs our help to save us, then He really isn't God is He? As we the created are more mighty and powerful than the Creator Himself.


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## Neogillist (Jan 5, 2008)

You should check out this site: Hyper-Calvinism Refuted Clearly With 3 Definitions, 3 Charts & 126 Verses

They basically define a form of 'practical hyper-calvinism' that supposedly many 'Calvinists' have. Of course, I disagree with some of the things they say like points 1 and 5 of the following:

"2. Overvalued-Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism: This type might also be called "Idolatrous-Calvinism." It turns Calvinism into an idol by giving it a role that God never intended. This usually results from trying to make logical deductions from human wisdom, instead of exegesis. (Satan is more than happy to pervert Bible truths, by transforming them into idols of worship.) Here are 6 examples...

6 Examples of Overvalued-Calvinism:

1. Making the basis of Christian fellowship Calvinism, instead of regeneration. 

2. Making the standard of Christian maturity Calvinism, instead of total Christlikeness. 

3. Transforming expository preaching into topical preaching by using passages as springboards to jump into Romans 9, Ephesians 1, John 6, etc. This is accomplished by using an implied hermeneutic (eisegesis,) rather than an explicit hermeneutic (exegesis.) 

Real expository preaching gets its main points from one main text. But, topical preaching gets its main points from multiple texts, outside the main text. 

4. Claiming that all major revivals have been by Calvinist evangelists, and none by Arminian evangelists. (That view quickly falls apart by studying the evangelical Anabaptists from the time of Augustine to Luther, and the present-day persecuted Church.)

5. Claiming that Calvinism is the gospel, or an essential part of the gospel. (Yes, even some good men like Spurgeon have erred here. Yet thankfully, they all don't preach like they believe. The gospel is Christ, a person, not Calvinism. This topic will be examined in-depth in the study "Is Calvinism Really the Gospel?") 

6. Believing that Arminians can't be saved."

Some people are opposed to the doctrines of grace simply because those who promote them lack "grace." But again, if we do not want to become full-blown ecumenicals we will obviously have to draw a line and separate from those who reject Reformed Theology as is done on this board. What do you guys think?


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## Narnian (Jan 5, 2008)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Yep. Lots of bells and whistles there. However, it doesn't matter how elaborate the dress is that you put on a pig, it's still just a pig in a dress.


Interestingly the pig, in a dress, even blind, may stumble onto an acorn of truth.

CALVINISM HANGS OR FALLS ON ANY POINT. Unfortunately because of an obvious pathological hatred of Reformed theology he comes to the wrong conclusion.


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

blhowes said:


> Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?



I just became convinced and at peace with calvinism in April of last year.

I can tell you why many people have trouble with calvinism because I struggled with it for 15 years.

The answer you always hear is Pride or something to that affect.

The truth is that it often has nothing to do with pride.

To all of my fellow calvinist brethren, please remember this the next time that you are tempted to put down an arminian or feel puffed up because God has given you grace that He has not chosen to give them.

Calvinism for many is a dark, depressing doctrine.

Many of you are probably already confused, but I assure you that this is the truth for many, as it was for me. 
You may esspecially not understand if you don't have loved ones that are not saved. I mean truelly loved ones, not your distant uncle that you talk to once a year.

I won't go through all of the thinking of the struggling arminian and its' dark ends because honestly I don't like to revisit those thoughts and I certainly wouldn't want to cause anyone else to struggle.

Just don't be so quick to judge and label them prideful fools when they may just have a great love for the lost.


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

Jean-David,

Thanks for your thoughts! It truly is a shame that there can't be more examples of Whitefield/Wesley type of fellowships in these regards. Personally, I think that is why God enlightens his children in different areas at different times. The theological differences it creates fosters the growth of love within his church, by revealing to us its absence within us and by creating in us a desire and a prayer life towards the development of that very fruit. If Christ died for them, who am I to not share similar affections? Though I do draw some sort of line theologically, I try not to do so relationally, remembering how I got here in the first place. The realization that what little bit of enlightenment we Calvinists have is only by the grace of God is very humbling. At least they have enough grace to embrace the Savior. That ought to warm and stir our hearts towards them. Paul's heart, in Rom. 9, was stirred like this for those Jews who were so hardened that they rejected their own Messiah, so much so that he himself desired to part with his own election for that of their's. I think when we can make a similar statement, then we've arrived closer to the mark of what we're aiming at.

Blessings!


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 5, 2008)

Folks hate the idea that God does not decree that all men _can_ be saved. Not that they all _will_, but that despite the best preaching, singing, praying and cajoling, God may not have planned for their child, mother, father, etc to be saved so they perceive that all of that _good work_ is for naught.

They really don't have a clue about the means being decreed to work out *God's* sovereign plan to display His Justice and Mercy, they desire _probability_ and somehow see this as the more merciful path.


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Folks hate the idea that God does not decree that all men _can_ be saved. Not that they all _will_, but that despite the best preaching, singing, praying and cajoling, God may not have planned for their child, mother, father, etc to be saved so they perceive that all of that _good work_ is for naught.
> 
> They really don't have a clue about the means being decreed to work out *God's* sovereign plan to display His Justice and Mercy, they desire _probability_ and somehow see this as the more merciful path.



When you have a loved one that isn't saved it's not "all that good work" that is upsetting to the arminian. Its' the fact that the loved one isn't saved. I'm not trying to be hard on you, but it's this kind of thinking when dealing with the souls of people, esspecially loved ones that leaves me scratching my head with some calvinistic people.

If I was an arminian, and my child dies unchosen, I doubt I would be standing over their cascket saying "Man, and all that hard work!" Does that make sense?


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## Thomas2007 (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?
> ...




This was similar to my experience being introduced to Calvinism as well, likewise it took me a decade to come to grips with it. Not only was I presumed foolish, but I felt as though I was put on trial and condemned, not really having the width and breadth of the issues explained. What I found, for me, anyway - was that a proper understanding of Trinitarianism was critical for understanding the interpretational hermeneutic of Calvinism. More often than not, I find that the Arminian has a modalistic understanding of Trinitarianism just like I did - although they hold to the doctrine nominally. We can talk about predestination all we want, if a man is trying to take that and plug it into a errant concept of the Trinity he will never come to grips with what Scripture teaches. Truth has to be plugged into Truth, it's line upon line, precept upon precept.

The problem in my experience seems to stem from people being taught a canned system and never really understanding the syncretic thought of others. How often do we actually deal with a true Arminian? Not often, they are out there, but most often I find a syncretic concept in modern evangelicalism. I've found more success in dealing with where people actually are, not where someone else was in history, that they may hold to certain ideas flowing from them.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > Folks hate the idea that God does not decree that all men _can_ be saved. Not that they all _will_, but that despite the best preaching, singing, praying and cajoling, God may not have planned for their child, mother, father, etc to be saved so they perceive that all of that _good work_ is for naught.
> ...



Don't get me wrong, brother - I don't think that is what the Arminian is thinking - I think it is somewhat more along the lines of: 

"If he/she just had a little more time maybe something would have broken through and they would have *accepted* Jesus as Savior. Maybe if *I* or (what I think is more oftentimes the case) *the preacher* had worked a little harder, presented the gospel a little clearer, there is a probability they would have chosen God."

This line of thinking is completely out of line with what Scripture teaches, but seems to be the practical gospel of the Arminian.


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

Agreed JD.

My point is that the desire to somehow persuade the individual is not always based on pride but just a love for the person, and to add to that, a view of God that the arminian is more comfortable with.
To the arminian, calvinism makes God a monster. I used to struggle with this myself.

It boils down to God giving people peace about:
Human importance
Gods importance

I am now at peace with the fact that I am not important and God is infinetly important.
Gods' Glory is paramount. Everything else is of no value.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> Agreed JD.
> 
> My point is that the desire to somehow persuade the individual is not always based on pride but just a love for the person, and to add to that, a view of God that the arminian is more comfortable with.
> To the arminian, calvinism makes God a monster. I used to struggle with this myself.
> ...



You have nailed it - the Arminian accuses the Calvinist of worshipping a God that capriciously chooses who is saved and who is damned, makes humanity worthless, God a monster, evangelism irrelevant and also makes the Calvinist prideful and judgmental for even _thinking_ that not everyone can be saved. 

They do not understand that the Calvinist is *amazed* and *grateful* that *anyone* is saved and see evangelism as a *duty* and an *ordained means* to fulfill our holy God's sovereign decree for the salvation of His precious Elect and ultimate judgment of those who are the *enemy* of God. They also fail to understand that the Calvinist does not judge anyone's ultimate salvation - we are just aware that Christ died for the sins of *many*, not all and that there is a component of *personal* accountability for assurance. That is - *our* assurance, not God's.

Also, brother, I know this is moot between us - I am simply reiterating for any lurkers.


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

That's why I personally don't wear certain doctrines on my sleeve to be noticed and read by all. That's the way God deals with us. God does not reveal all of our sin to us all at once, because he knows we would be crushed by its weight, so to speak; and he doesn't reveal all of his inner workings with us either. Water isn't dumped on a young plant from a 50 gallon drum, and food isn't given to a baby in the form of mashed potatoes and steak. However, it's easy for people to let their zeal get ahead of their wisdom. Calvinistic teaching is very freeing to believers, but in it's appropriate time and in its appropriate measures. 

"But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,..." I Cor.3:1,2.

That's what I think for now.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 5, 2008)

I believe, many times, it is about bearing with the weaker brother and the difference between the appropriate balance of milk and meat teaching.


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)




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## BJClark (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill;



> To the arminian, calvinism makes God a monster. I used to struggle with this myself.



I would agree, a lot of people tend to carry this belief that God is some how a monster if He doesn't save everyone (even though He certain could) and even moreso if they can't 'choose' for themselves to be saved. (to which I say hmmm, knowing what you know..would you CHOOSE NOT to believe if you could??)

But all that lead's us back to pride....and the "I" Choose to believe, I don't have to believe if I don't want to...

1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc. 

4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself:


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## Davidius (Jan 5, 2008)

So how can someone who thinks God is a monster be regenerate?

God's absolute sovereignty is taught clearly throughout the entire bible. I don't see how it can be considered something that we have to ease people into. I mean, look at Romans 9! When I came across Romans 9 there was nothing I could do. The issue was settled, no more questioning, only attempts to work out the now-obvious truth in various contexts. If individuals are presented with clear scriptural evidence (such as Romans 9) concerning key attributes of God's character and reject them as hatefully as some, I have trouble believe that the individuals in question can be regenerate. The bible says that the unbelievers hate God. When the true God of the bible is presented to Arminians, they often hate Him as much as any unbeliever. 

If it takes someone years to finally acknowledge that Romans 9 is true, perhaps they are just now being regenerated. I know we're saved by grace and not be our own understanding, but how would we consider someone who refused to acknowledge other truths about God's nature? The Trinity is not spelled out as blatantly as God's sovereignty and the doctrine of election, yet we say that anyone who rejects the Trinity is a heretic.

In one place, Jesus gave a hard teaching (about eating his flesh and drinking his blood) and many disciples left. Why should we save _foundational_ hard teachings for later, especially those as foundational and important as God's sovereignty? It ties everything together. If they hate it, then they hate it, and they can leave like those who left Jesus over the issue of the sacrament, right?


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## BJClark (Jan 5, 2008)

CarolinaCalvinist;



> If they hate it, then they hate it, and they can leave like those who left Jesus over the issue of the sacrament, right?



Many do, only they leave and go to a church that doesn't teach it..

My brother in law is one of them, he took his family from our church to go to an SB Church where the pastor doesn't teach it...but now, the SB is going back to their roots..and beginning to teach it again...and I kind of chuckle as I sit and watch this going on...knowing God is pursuing him, wanting him to come to terms with it...even though HE doesn't see it..even my sister is beginning to see it..I think she should ask him..where he will go next or will he stop running and just accept it as truth?


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

If I may respectfully respond to that Davidus, I personally would then have to wonder, to what would I apply I Cor. 3:1,2 towards, if not towards certain doctrines that are hard for the many regenerate, yet still depraved, to receive? 

I realize that some of these truths are obvious to you and I and others, (though it took many years for me to to see such), and that they just seem to be written there in black and white, plain as the nose on your face, sentences. I don't know how many times I can remember having verses all of a sudden jump out at me with obvious clarity, that never seem to say what they say now. And, now I look at these verses as plain simple sentences, stating the truth in a clear, simple form using a clear and simple sentence structure. Whereas before, the same sentences were clear, yet meant something totally different when I read them. So, I think that some of these believers still just read it, and don't understand. And, that shows the depth of depravity. In actuality, they may know that the words say that, but they can't seem to fit it together in their minds with all of the other things there that they already have lined up. Too much has to be shuffled around, and it affects too many things that they already take for granted as obvious truths. And, many of these truths that are affected have, not only deep roots, but sincere affections attached to them, which are hard to let go of. And, if they let go of them, they can't really see how to deal with the ramifications of letting go, of what that might mean with regard to how they deal with life and other things. For often, when someone shoves Calvinism down the throat of an immature believer, and his entire world-view is shattered, no one is there to help him pick up the pieces and fit them back together. Months and years of time and attention often have to be brought to the table for such ministry, and if someone is not willing to put such time and patience towards ministering such to a believer, I wonder if they should really begin the process. Many have the pillars knocked out from under them, and are just left to deal with the pile that is left behind.

So, I try to remind myself that what is clearly evident to my understanding may not always be clearly evident to somebody else's, even if I think it obviously should be. I also try to remember that regeneracy does not imply full recovery and restoration of our faculties. The faculties of the understanding, will, and affections are regenerate, yes; but they are still perhaps 99% corrupted in some and 82% in others, and they are still in the process of renewal. I also remind myself that, in Corinth, many who were believers there did not even believe in a resurrection (Ch.15). And yet, Paul does not refer to them as not being regenerate, nor does he excommunicate them for not adhering to a crucial doctrine that is assumed in the gospel. True, he does explain to them the doctrine of the resurrection more clearly, and of how foolish it is for them to not agree with it, but, in my mind, that seems to be because of how close its connection is the the work of Christ that they are placing their faith in, for Christ was resurrected. Also, Paul doesn't wrap up the chapter saying that they are being rebellious and just not wanting to listen to the words of truth. And, he does not lay down an ultimatum saying that they had better sign on to this teaching by the time he arrives. And, I remind myself of Phil. 3:15,16, where Paul shows that it's okay to wait for God to reveal understanding and truth to others when he so chooses to, and to not be impatient for his day of revelation unto them.

This is where I'm at with this for now. I welcome your thoughts and opinions, knowing I see through a glass darkly.

Blessings, and I hope your semester break is going well, as well as your time spent with your fiance!


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> So how can someone who thinks God is a monster be regenerate?
> 
> God's absolute sovereignty is taught clearly throughout the entire bible. I don't see how it can be considered something that we have to ease people into. I mean, look at Romans 9! When I came across Romans 9 there was nothing I could do. The issue was settled, no more questioning, only attempts to work out the now-obvious truth in various contexts. If individuals are presented with clear scriptural evidence (such as Romans 9) concerning key attributes of God's character and reject them as hatefully as some, I have trouble believe that the individuals in question can be regenerate. The bible says that the unbelievers hate God. When the true God of the bible is presented to Arminians, they often hate Him as much as any unbeliever.
> 
> ...



They may not be saved but, we really can't say. They believe the God that they are calling a monster is not the true God. I honestly don't know how God sorts all of this stuff out...
I for one do Not believe that an understanding of the trinity is essential for salvation. Someone who does not hold to it is a heretic yes, but so are half of the people on the puritan board on just 1 issue alone(which half I don't know). It's a good thing that God allows heretics into heaven because every one of us is one to a degree. It Is essential to believe that Jesus is God though.

heretic - Definitions from Dictionary.com

Sorry, a bit off topic.


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

Davidus, 

Forgive me, I just read your last paragraph a second time, and saw your point in a more clear light. (Funny how that fits our discussion). I wanted to say that I think you make a good point here with Christ, regarding the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. For, he did seem to just speak the truth and let the chips fall where they may, so to speak. 

But, in wondering about that, I might tend to classify that teaching of his as the actual Gospel. To me, it seems like he was representing to them the degree to which they would have to link up to him, and abandon all of their other hopes, in order to be saved. If so, that is fundamental gospel teaching, whereas I would tend to classify Calvinism as being secondary in comparison. 

Let me know what you think.

Blessings!


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> I for one do Not believe that an understanding of the trinity is essential for salvation. Someone who does not hold to it is a heretic yes, but so are half of the people on the puritan board on just 1 issue alone(which half I don't know).
> 
> Sorry, a bit off topic.



COuld you elaborate this statement a tad more? Are you making a distinction between believing in a triune God and understanding it exhaustively? If so, I concur, but if you are saying one denies or even hedges on a triune God to be regenerate than I adamantly disagree.

The biggest issue for 'non calvies' for lack of a better term, is the doctrine of total depravity. Too many think too highly of themselves. And speak of all the 'good works' they do. That is why fruit inspecting is a dead end. I am becoming more convinced of this as I grow. Until the Holy Spirit destroys this myth, they will never understand God's Sovereign pleasure to do what He wills..


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## turmeric (Jan 5, 2008)

It looks like very small print to me - I'll have to take you guys' word for it.


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## Coram Deo (Jan 5, 2008)

So Mr. Gill,

Are we talking about an understanding of the Trinity, or the Trinity itself? Or the denial of any part of the Trinity?

Which part of the Trinity can one deny, God the Father? God the Son? What about God the Spirit? If one denies any part of the trinity then he denies the One true God and would an unbeliever and would be the violation of the First Commandment. Without God the Son, one does not know God the Father without God the Spirit one does not Know the God the Son. 

One does not need a complete understanding of the Trinity, but one can not be saved without knowing the Thrice Holy Triune God, God the Father (Jehovah), God the Son (Yehoshua: The Christ), and God the Spirit (Holy Ghost: The Comforter).







John Gill said:


> I for one do Not believe that an understanding of the trinity is essential for salvation. Someone who does not hold to it is a heretic yes, but so are half of the people on the puritan board on just 1 issue alone(which half I don't know). It's a good thing that God allows heretics into heaven because every one of us is one to a degree. It Is essential to believe that Jesus is God though.


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> John Gill said:
> 
> 
> > I for one do Not believe that an understanding of the trinity is essential for salvation. Someone who does not hold to it is a heretic yes, but so are half of the people on the puritan board on just 1 issue alone(which half I don't know).
> ...




If someone had been taught the trinity and rejected it I would certainly be dubious about that brothers claim to know Christ.

But in the case of say some of our chinese brethren who only have peices of the Bible and the pieces they have give them the light they need to understand that:
They are sinners
They deserve Hell
Christ is the only way to be forgiven of sins

If the chinese person repents of their sins and follows Christ as Lord and savior, Yes I believe that they will go to heaven with 0 knowledge of the spirit.

When people think about people who don't hold to the trinity they think of Jehovahs witnesses who are definetely not saved.
The reason is that they do not recognize Christ as God, not because they don't hold that the Godhead is 3 in 1.

Christ never said that in order to be saved you had to believe that He was part of a trinity, He said He and the Father are one, NOT He and the Father and the Spirit.
Over and over in the gospels, esspecially John(i believe) Jesus talks about Himself and the Father.
Christ speaks about the Spirit, but not in a way to teach people that the Spirit, He, and the Father are all One.

When asked about salvation, Christ never says that you must believe that He is a part of a triune Godhead. He does allude to the WORK of the holy Spirit in salvation.

For salvation, Christ must be Lord and Saviour. It is Christ and Him crucified that must be preached.

When you witness to someone do you say:
You are a sinner,
You must repent of your sins,
Put your trust in what Christ accomplished on the cross(and that alone),
Follow Him,
And believe that He is apart of a trinity consisting of The Father and The Holy spirit

If you have scripture stateing that the doctrine of the trinity is essential then I am definetly wrong and will recant.


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## Gryphonette (Jan 5, 2008)

*Because they're terrified of the thought *they* weren't elected, It seems to me*



blhowes said:


> Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?



Additionally, they're worried about their unsaved loved ones, scared perhaps_ they_ weren't elected to eternal life.

They simply can't imagine a loving God not choosing to save everyone He created. If they love their Uncle Horace, but Uncle Horace stubbornly rejects the gospel, they are distressed at the possibility that Uncle Horace will _never_ accept the gospel no matter _how_ often or well it's presented because he wasn't predestined to eternal life. Do they love Uncle Horace more than the LORD? That doesn't feel right at _all_, yet if they would have elected him but the LORD didn't, that must be the case.

The base error in nonCalvinist theology is how it's _us_ and_ our_ good that is its primary concern. Any theology that has us and our happiness as its central focus is guaranteed to go whoppy-jawed.


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## Davidius (Jan 5, 2008)

My point was that I don't see how one can say that we only need to know how to be saved and that this can be divorced from the question of who God is. And when we ask who God is, and begin to discuss his attributes, his sovereignty appears to stand at the middle of everything. His absolute sovereignty is essential to being God as well as a support beam for everything else, including justification. 

And, as others have mentioned, most Arminians are holding onto their desire to play some part in their salvation. So if they _say_ they understand "You are a sinner. Jesus is the only hope for salvation" but reject God's sovereignty, do they really understand salvation?


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

thunaer said:


> So Mr. Gill,
> 
> Are we talking about an understanding of the Trinity, or the Trinity itself? Or the denial of any part of the Trinity?
> 
> ...



As stated,
I would be dubious about a flat out denial. It is more of a knowledge or understanding of the trinity that I'm pointing out.

Repentance and faith in the work of Christ saves, not an understanding of the attributes of God. 
Maybe we should also add to the saving work of Christ,
an understanding of Gods eternality, His limitless power, God being everywhere, the Fathers love for the Son...

What saves again?
What did Christ say when HE was asked?
What did the apostles say?


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> My point was that I don't see how one can say that we only need to know how to be saved and that this can be divorced from the question of who God is. And when we ask who God is, and begin to discuss his attributes, his sovereignty appears to stand at the middle of everything. His absolute sovereignty is essential to being God as well as a support beam for everything else, including justification.
> 
> And, as others have mentioned, most Arminians are holding onto their desire to play some part in their salvation. So if they _say_ they understand "You are a sinner. Jesus is the only hope for salvation" but reject God's sovereignty, do they really understand salvation?




I would say no, they dont completely understand salvation.
Do even calvinists completely understand salvation?
I believe I understand it more fully, but a complete understanding I can't claim to have.


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## Coram Deo (Jan 5, 2008)

Proselytizing or Evangelism (Witnessing) to Someone begins with that we have transgressed the Laws of the One true God which begins by showing them How they have Sin through the Ten Commandments... How they have worshiped other Gods or Denied the Thrice Holy Triune God. How we worship Idols made of everything in the heavens above and on the Earth beneath. How we falsely use the Lord's name in Vain. How we Profane His Holy Day the Sabbath. How we disobey all authority over us whether by Parent, Elders, or Magistrates. How we murder in deeds and in our hearts toward our neighbor. How we Steal and Lie, and commit fornication by all sorts of immoral sexual acts and Covet, etc...

But part of learning how we sin is that fact that we learn who God is and what God is through the First Commandment... We learn through the First Commandment that God is 3 in 1 through God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. 

We tell them they must repent from their sins they have committed and they must put their trust in God the Son by the Help of God the Spirit. Through God the Son the Father is revealed. They must put their trust in the finished work of God the Son on the Cross but it is by the Help of God the Spirit. It was the same in the Old Covenant and it is true Today.... The Spirit of God dwells within a person who enables them to put their Trust in God the Son. Learning of the Godhead would be primary through the learning of one's Sins by showing them the Ten Commandments and telling them how they have sinned... 

True Evangelism starts with the Depravity of Man and the Breaking of God's Laws through the Ten Commandments followed by repentance and trusting in the Godhead through God the Son... 




John Gill said:


> When you witness to someone do you say:
> You are a sinner,
> You must repent of your sins,
> Put your trust in what Christ accomplished on the cross(and that alone),
> ...


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

thunaer said:


> Proselytizing or Evangelism (Witnessing) to Someone begins with that we have transgressed the Laws of the One true God which begins by showing them How they have Sin through the Ten Commandments... How they have worshiped other Gods or Denied the Thrice Holy Triune God. How we worship Idols made of everything in the heavens above and on the Earth beneath. How we falsely use the Lord's name in Vain. How we Profane His Holy Day the Sabbath. How we disobey all authority over us whether by Parent, Elders, or Magistrates. How we murder in deeds and in our hearts toward our neighbor. How we Steal and Lie, and commit fornication by all sorts of immoral sexual acts and Covet, etc...
> 
> But part of learning how we sin is that fact that we learn who God is and what God is through the First Commandment... We learn through the First Commandment that God is 3 in 1 through God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
> 
> ...



Im not sure how to respond to your first paragraph.

Paragraph2- where in the first commandment do we learn that God is 3 in 1?

Paragraph3-yes, the father is revealed through the son and the work is done by the holy spirit. How does this teach that this knowledge is necessary?
Why is it necessary for someone to understand the godhead to understand that they are a sinner?

I agree with paragraph 4


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

Great reply, Anne! I especially like the use of the term "whoppy-jawed"! That actually made me chuckle!

I think the last time I came across that theological term was when I was reading Calvin's Commentary on the Galatians...

Blessings!


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## John Gill (Jan 5, 2008)

Its my bedtime and we've(especially me) have highjacked this thread enough. If anyone wishes to continue we shoud probably start a different thread.


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## Coram Deo (Jan 5, 2008)

By the way, I will remember the Flowerly Comment.... *Chuckle*

Let's look at the text....

Exodus 20:2–3

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Thou shalt not have any other gods before Me.


I am the Lord your God.. Which God? You shall not have Any other gods before Me.. How are we to know who is the one true God and not have other gods before Him? How do we avoid this sin? By avoiding this Sin we must search the scripture of Who God Is and from the First Commandment we are to learn that the Lord our God, the Great I AM, Jehovah is our Lord and we must also learn that He is Also God the Son through Jesus Christ and He is also God the Spirit... To deny any aspect of who God is, is in a really real essence denying God and worshipping another God and it is breaking the First Commandment.

It is Sinful to deny God and you deny God by denying any or all of God through God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. You can not separate or divide them otherwise your understanding of God is not of the one true God.
It is necessary for someone to understand that God exist 3 in 1 because to deny that is Sin and we learn that through the First Commandment of who God is... Now how it all works is not necessary for Salvation and I know that we will not completely understand the Trinity until heaven but to know that the Son is God, the Spirit is God, and the Father is God yet exist One God is required otherwise one does not worship the Great I AM.





John Gill said:


> Paragraph2- where in the first commandment do we learn that God is 3 in 1?
> 
> Paragraph3-yes, the father is revealed through the son and the work is done by the holy spirit. How does this teach that this knowledge is necessary?
> Why is it necessary for someone to understand the godhead to understand that they are a sinner?


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## moral necessity (Jan 5, 2008)

We've lost sight of the forest for the trees!

Define when regeneration takes place, and you've defined when a person is a born again child of God. Does regeneration precede faith or not?

Also, somewhat off topic, but, this reminded me of a great book to recommend. A Treatise on Regeneration by Peter Van Mastricht. Jonathan Edwards' favorite book, besides the Bible. About 110 pages and $15 at monergismbooks.com. Worth every penny!


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## Nse007 (Jan 5, 2008)

John Gill said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?
> ...



Dan Murray on the Puritan Board...what's up?!


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## Raj (Jan 6, 2008)

JM said:


> Just think of all the work that went into the making of this...
> 
> Heads up No Calvinism .org.





... very proudy and legalistic people. Falling in the hands of Satan..........declaring people of God to be false.

Will pray for them.


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## John Gill (Jan 6, 2008)

Mike you wrote:

"It is Sinful to deny God and you deny God by denying any or all of God through God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. You can not separate or divide them otherwise your understanding of God is not of the one true God.
It is necessary for someone to understand that God exist 3 in 1 because to deny that is Sin and we learn that through the First Commandment of who God is... Now how it all works is not necessary for Salvation and I know that we will not completely understand the Trinity until heaven but to know that the Son is God, the Spirit is God, and the Father is God yet exist One God is required otherwise one does not worship the Great I AM."

Near the middle of this paragraph you nailed it and agreed with me
But then you lost it again...


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## Coram Deo (Jan 6, 2008)

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

This shows Evangelism and Baptism which are all Initatory showing one must believe in Father, Son, and Spirit at Evangelism and before Baptism....

Dan, Recant...


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## Quickened (Jan 6, 2008)

Gryphonette said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Calvinism seem to be so threatening to some people?
> ...



Bingo! There it is.

I can remember seeing on another board people talk about how they cant imagine their God being like that. It was offensive to them and i always thought "But why?"

No one wants to think of their loved ones in hell. In all honesty it is troubling to think about. Instead of trying to understand "their God" they put the blanket of arminian thought and belief to cover up the truth. They will favor certain verses over others and perhaps read them frequently to calm their very being. They will avoid terms like "elect" because it will time and time again bring them back to the very doctrine that they are running from.


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## BJClark (Jan 6, 2008)

I got to thinking about this a little more this morning and I remembered a conversation with a friend of mine...part of it's about the foreknowledge of God, not just concerning salvation but mostly concerning sin that He knows people will commit.

When I was dealing with the consequences of sin committed against me as a child, having been molested, I never questioned God knew it happened, but I did struggle with God having known it would happen before He ever created me. But I didn't struggle long with that but I did struggle for a while, and I realized if I believed one I had to believe the other because that IS what Scripture tells me. I didn't know it's what Calvin taught, I just knew it's what Scripture taught..and I knew I couldn't pick and choose what I beleived to be true concerning what God said..

but my struggle started by looking at the sins committed against ME, the mighty me, and how could God allow this to happen to ME?? How could a God who loved ME, know this was going to happen and NOT take this persons life BEFORE He did it? Why didn't HE (as God) Stop it or prevent it in some way?

Looking at those questions God turned them on me to look at the log in my own eye...Why should He have allowed me to live knowing the SIN I would commit against Him and others? What could He have done to me to prevent ME from sinning against someone else? Or even Him? The only way He could have prevented it at all was to take my life...or to have never allowed me to be born to begin with.

As I was discussing this with my friend, she struggled with seeing her sin as JUST as bad before God as what was done against her...as do many people. We have a tendency to want to put sin on a scale and measure it against other peoples sins...Murder; abortion; child abuse; homosexuality; ect..is some how worse than lying; stealing; vanity; pride; self-righteousness; ect..but the only one we are to compare ourselves to IS Christ, not everyone else. 

However, when God was showing me my list of sins (and they are many), and the consequences of how they effected others (and even today continue to effect others) I was torn to the core..my heart ached for weeks as I thought of all the people God created in His Image, that I hurt because of MY sin...I began to better understand God's grace and mercy, His sovereignty, and His love..and How He used all of those things that happened to me, to bring Me to Him..I was not angry at Him like my friend was, but I loved Him all the more for knowing just what it would take happening in my life..to bring me to Himself..to make Himself known to me..and even Paul praising God in Prison and for all the sins that were committed against Him made sense to me..

God showed His sovereignty, grace and mercy, by not answering my prayers as a child, re: my father to be killed in Vietnam, to stop the abuse, and by not taking MY life when I committed sins against Him and others as well..had my father been killed I never would have been able to do as Christ tells us in Matthew 18 to go and confront a brother who has trespassed against us..by the time I went to my dad, he claimed to be a brother in Christ..is He a brother? I don't know, I went to him alone at first as a teen and he denied it, and I didn't understand the Matthew 18 process back then and I dropped it..

but years later it came up again, when he was standing accused of doing the same to another child..and I understood more at that time..and I went to him again, with others present and he still denied it..and He made an appointment for us to meet with a pastor, so that he could get me to quit telling lies against him...but it turned out to be the opposite and He confessed in the presence of this pastor..so is He a brother? I don't know..He still denies it to the others who were present..and in that, his marriage is built on lies and his relationships with others are built on lies..but that is His sin before God not mine..

Sharing that to say, that as I went through those things...the more God showed me my own sins..and how I needed to go back to others I had sinned against and make amends to the best of my ability..as per Matthew 5, "therefore if thou bring thy gift to the alter, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee: leave there thy gift before the alter, and go thy way: first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

The weight of the consequences of my own sins bore down on me, even though I knew and know God forgave/forgives me. But my friend could not grasp that, she still struggles with being able to accept and love a God who would allow *others* to sin so greatly..but then I know it's because she does not see her sin in the same way..so to her this God I worship must be a monster...because He knew from the before the world was created that certain people could do such vile things against those "GOD LOOOOOVES" and He didn't do anything stop it or prevent it from happening...by killing them off first.

if God LOOOOOVES everyone...or only certain people, then how could He allow such sins in the world to happen to them? 

but to me, If God loves His Own Son so greatly, and allowed HIM to die for me, How could He not allow for sin to be committed against ME as well???

it makes sense to me, it fits with who God is..and I love Him and praise Him all the more...but others struggle with God because of it..again, their pride about how they think God should be towards them if He loves them so much and not seeing their own sin in the same way as they see others sins...in some way prevents them from understanding..


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## Gryphonette (Jan 6, 2008)

Wonderful, wonderful post!

A low view of sin, and most especially our _own_ sin, is absolutely at the heart of non-Calvinism.


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## John Gill (Jan 6, 2008)

thunaer said:


> Matthew 28:19-20
> 
> 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> ...



I'm done with this. We let this get way off topic and so I'm moving on.
Besides, I don't know how to respond to this kind of exegesis.
We'll have to agree to dissagree.


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## Narnian (Jan 6, 2008)

I generally agree with Mr. Gills post above. I doubt the thief on the cross understood the Trinity. The 3000 believers added at Pentecost probably had it explained to them later along with many other doctrines. I do believe it was revealed and understood by the apostles (c.f Thomas).

I understand a lot more things now than when I originally became a Christian. Though in my case Jesus claim to being part of the Godhead was a major turining point in my own conversion process.

However any true Christian will understand and accept it once they are exposed to it due to the work of the Holy Spirit. Anybody who subsequently rejects the doctrine was never a true convert.

I think this does raise a legitimate point: what is the minimal understanding of a new Christian? I am open to being incorrect on my understanding above.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 6, 2008)

thunaer said:


> Matthew 28:19-20
> 
> 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> ...



Now come on Michael, how many nations do you know that have no infants in them?


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