# Do Jews become Gentiles?



## arapahoepark (Aug 17, 2019)

Recently reading a book I came across the idea that Jews shouldn't become Gentiles in the samr way that Gentiles don't need to become Jews. I never thought of it that way but it bugs me. While undeniably they can practice the Law, just not trust in it, Gentiles dont have to do that same. But since Christ fulfilled the types and shadows, what happens with the Jews?


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 17, 2019)

arapahoepark said:


> Recently reading a book I came across the idea that Jews shouldn't become Gentiles in the samr way that Gentiles don't need to become Jews.



Agreed. I don't believe a Jew can ever be considered gentile. Maybe, in their theology, if a Jew departs from the faith, they are then considered gentile. I don't really know and I am a Samaritan Jew.



> I never thought of it that way but it bugs me. While undeniably they can practice the Law, just not trust in it, Gentiles dont have to do that same.



I don't quite follow. Gentile believers have to hold to justification by faith alone and keep God's law (out of delight).




> But since Christ fulfilled the types and shadows, what happens with the Jews?



Same thing as us. Unless of course you are speaking about unsaved Jews.


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## arapahoepark (Aug 17, 2019)

Scott Bushey said:


> Agreed. I don't believe a Jew can ever be considered gentile. Maybe, in their theology, if a Jew departs from the faith, they are then considered gentile. I don't really know and I am a Samaritan Jew.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I meant was do Jews have to continue to keep circumcision, etc. the "boundary markers" so to speak to maintain their identity? Or is it effectly erased so to speak? Did their nearly strictly bloodline only serve to show a shadow of holiness?


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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 17, 2019)

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor 7:19

"Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you." Gal 5:2

Compare these verses to Eph 2:11 ff

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## Scott Bushey (Aug 17, 2019)

Trent,
Jews that are now Christians, must obviously abandon any ceremonial aspect they previously held dear. In this age, circumcision, medically speaking, is the norm; So, if a completed Jew went to an actual mohel to circumcise their child and their intent was solely for respect to their Jewish heritage, the mohel may refuse in the same way we may refuse baptism to an unconverted person or infant of an unconverted parent, i.e. a person that doesn't have membership in that particular church.

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## deleteduser99 (Aug 18, 2019)

arapahoepark said:


> Recently reading a book I came across the idea that Jews shouldn't become Gentiles in the samr way that Gentiles don't need to become Jews. I never thought of it that way but it bugs me. While undeniably they can practice the Law, just not trust in it, Gentiles dont have to do that same. But since Christ fulfilled the types and shadows, what happens with the Jews?



It might help to make a few fine distinctions here, particularly between the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. This at least helps me parse out the matters.

It's clear that the Mosaic Covenant is discontinued, Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8. The covenant made when they came out of Egypt is obsolete and fading away, and is superseded with a covenant built on much better promises. The ceremonial laws and judicial laws (aside from being guides for general equity) are done away with. That covenant was a tutor of law and grace per Galatians 4, but the time has come to progress out of the world of picture books into the full revelation of Christ.

However, circumcision stands in a class of its own from the Mosaic ceremonial laws because its origination is in the more original covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant; which the Mosaic has not appended, altered, or superseded (Gal 4 again). We do practice circumcision today--through baptism, the sign and seal of the Covenant of Grace just as circumcision was (Romans 4:11). In the AC, God was delivering to us in time and space the Covenant of Grace through a people set apart to fear and worship Him, and the promise was to be God to them and to their offspring after them. So, a church. And the NC church grows out of their olive tree, continuing from the same sap. More on that further down.

The responsibility of the Jews then is not to abandon circumcision altogether, but continue to practice it through its replacement--baptism.

As a further proof, in the AC two promises are made: "...be God to you and your offspring after you", and "in you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." I see a direct line between these words and Romans 11, and the promise to be God to Abraham's children. In keeping with the promise, God will:

1) bring conversion to the Jews, relieve the partial hardening that has come upon them per Romans, and thus keep this promise to Abraham; and again through the engrafting of Abraham's apostatized children back into the olive tree--the church--("and your offspring after you")
2) the Gentiles will know far greater spiritual blessing when that Jewish revival happens. ("All the nations of the earth will be blessed")

They are still a distinct people group for covenantal reasons. God has His elect among them, and their eventual conversion is going to mean an unsurpassed fruitfulness in the church on earth. I cannot help but think that the fulfillment of such a prophecy will result in far more coming in. After all, Psalm 86, the nations will come and worship and glorify His name. And I think we should take that word _all_ in "all the nations of the earth" with more faith than hesitation.

So the New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah comes to be fulfilled in two grand installments: one at Pentecost after Christ rose from the dead and began the great ingathering of Gentiles, and pouring out the Spirit in an unprecedented way, yet still there's another stage of fulfillment before the final consummation--the New Covenant pouring out of the Spirit on the physical Jews themselves.

And because these are things that the New Testament itself says, the Jews should not be relegated to merely a physical types-and-shadows bloodline that is now obsolete, but there is a great and wonderful New Covenant purpose for the continued distinct existence.

You also said this book states we should not attempt to become Jews. Romans says that, in one way, we become Jews and join them. Romans 11, the olive tree is their's, and they are the natural branches. Jesus did say, "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4. We as Gentiles are the wild olive branches grafted into their tree, thus we take on what made them unique in the world--participation in the church of which the root and life is Christ through the Covenant of Grace. Per Romans 2 it wasn't Jewish DNA that made a Jew to be a Jew (Gentiles who joined Israel did not become a second class of worshipper), but being a Jew in heart--that they feared God, worshipped Him, professed faith in the coming Messiah, and submitted to His rulership.

I know that's a lot, but in summary:

- The Jews are more than typical. Even the NT puts them as a distinct people waiting for the fulfillment of a greater promise, based on promises made millennia before.
- The Mosaic and its institutions are discontinued, but this doesn't imply the discontinuance of the Abrahamic, the Jewish people or circumcision (effectively) since their identity is in an earlier, non-obsolete covenant.
- Circumcision is distinct from Mosaic regulations in that it has a sacramental successor, baptism.
- Jewish identity continues, as a true Jew has always been a spiritual one. This has always been the true Jewish identity according to Romans 2.
- We become spiritual Jews by faith according to Paul and join into their olive tree.
- God will one day join the apostatized Jewish people into their own olive tree. Of which @Scott Bushey is a most welcome first-fruits

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## Dachaser (Aug 18, 2019)

arapahoepark said:


> Recently reading a book I came across the idea that Jews shouldn't become Gentiles in the samr way that Gentiles don't need to become Jews. I never thought of it that way but it bugs me. While undeniably they can practice the Law, just not trust in it, Gentiles dont have to do that same. But since Christ fulfilled the types and shadows, what happens with the Jews?


Jess that get saved are fulfilled spiritual Jews, while those of us saved who are Gentiles remain Gentiles


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## VictorBravo (Aug 18, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Jess that get saved are fulfilled spiritual Jews, while those of us saved who are Gentiles remain Gentiles



Huh?!

I think Romans 9 tells us something else. Believing Gentiles are part of (spiritual) Israel, as it were.

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6 KJV)

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## Dachaser (Aug 18, 2019)

VictorBravo said:


> Huh?!
> 
> I think Romans 9 tells us something else. Believing Gentiles are part of (spiritual) Israel, as it were.
> 
> "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6 KJV)


Jews stay Jewish after being saved was what I was trying to say, as they do not change into Gentiles, not we Gentiles become now Jews.


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## OPC'n (Aug 18, 2019)

According to the orthodox Jewish community, Jews and Gentiles are distinguished between the Jewish faith and non-Jewish faith, but also DNA. If a Gentile adopts the Jewish faith, they are then considered Jewish. Likewise, if a Jew who has the Jewish DNA refuses the Jewish faith, they are still considered to be a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism. They don't become Gentiles according to the orthodox Jewish community. As Christians, I think we should appeal to Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Here is a direct quote originally from Mark S JPAA. 

“We believe that Jewishness is a birthright. It is inherited from our parents. Our people are not of one culture; we have diverse cultural expressions (Ashkenazi/Sephardi, Georgian/Russian, Ethiopian, Persian, etc.). Our people are not of one religion. While Judaism might be the traditional religion for many Jewish people, Jews are still considered Jewish even though they might be atheists or even if they embrace other beliefs."

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## VictorBravo (Aug 18, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Jews stay Jewish after being saved was what I was trying to say, as they do not change into Gentiles, not we Gentiles become now Jews.



My concern was about what a "fulfilled spiritual Jew" is, not one's DNA. Of course ethnicity doesn't change after God converts.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

VictorBravo said:


> My concern was about what a "fulfilled spiritual Jew" is, not one's DNA. Of course ethnicity doesn't change after God converts.


A Jewish person who receives Jesus as their Messaih becomes then a "spiritual Jew", and the lost in their sins Jews still just physical descendants of Abraham.


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

arapahoepark said:


> Recently reading a book I came across the idea that Jews shouldn't become Gentiles in the samr way that Gentiles don't need to become Jews. I never thought of it that way but it bugs me. While undeniably they can practice the Law, just not trust in it, Gentiles dont have to do that same. But since Christ fulfilled the types and shadows, what happens with the Jews?


Smells like law and legalism to me. It was my understanding that both Messianic Jews and believing gentiles are all considered, of the house of Israel. I don't see how anything else matters. Since there is neither Jew or Greek, but we are all one in Christ Jesus.

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## De Jager (Aug 19, 2019)

_"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. his praise is not from man but from God."_

This passage is most instructive. What is a Jew? A Jew is one who believes in the one true God (YHWH) as revealed in scripture. This belief must also include a receiving of Jesus as Messiah.

_"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him".
_
An important fact to be realized is that followers of Judaism and Christians do not worship the same God. Christians worship the triune God, but those who follow Judaism do not. Those who follow Judaism may be descended from Abraham by blood, but are not related to Abraham in the way that really matters (i.e. a spiritual descendant by faith). The covenant blessings were rejected by those ethnic Jews who refused the Messiah.

_That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring - not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
_
Thus, it is my belief that many Jewish people became like Gentiles - when they rejected Christ, they essentially apostatized from the church, and future generations were born outside the covenant of grace.

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## De Jager (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Jews stay Jewish after being saved was what I was trying to say, as they do not change into Gentiles, not we Gentiles become now Jews.



Actually, I think the NT teaches that when an ethnic Jew believes in Christ they become a "true" Jew, and when an non-ethnic Jew believes in Christ they also become a "true" Jew. Why? Because a true Jew is one who believes in Christ. Our ethnicity is not that relevant (there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ Jesus).

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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Actually, I think the NT teaches that when an ethnic Jew believes in Christ they become a "true" Jew, and when an non-ethnic Jew believes in Christ they also become a "true" Jew. Why? Because a true Jew is one who believes in Christ. Our ethnicity is not that relevant (there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ Jesus).


Good response on both, well said.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Actually, I think the NT teaches that when an ethnic Jew believes in Christ they become a "true" Jew, and when an non-ethnic Jew believes in Christ they also become a "true" Jew. Why? Because a true Jew is one who believes in Christ. Our ethnicity is not that relevant (there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ Jesus).


One is Jewish by birth, and Gentiles saved are saved Gentiles now in Spiritual Israel, but there is still jewish and Gentile distinctiveness!


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> One is Jewish by birth, and Gentiles saved are saved Gentiles now in Spiritual Israel, but there is still jewish and Gentile distinctiveness!


There doesn't have to be and I don't buy into that faulty thinking. We should find our identity in Christ, not our differences. We our new creations in Christ, there shouldn't be any distictiveness.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

Reformed Apologist said:


> There doesn't have to be!


The scriptures indicate that while both Jews/Gentiles have same salvation, much as also Male/Female one now in Christ for spiritual blessings, still have distinctiveness still remaining.


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## De Jager (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> One is Jewish by birth, and Gentiles saved are saved Gentiles now in Spiritual Israel, but there is still jewish and Gentile distinctiveness!



Only ethnically. Spiritually they are exactly the same. "There is neither Jew nor Greek.."

I am not personally a descendant of Abraham (at least I don't think so), but I was a covenant child, unlike most Jews who are born these days. All they can say is that they were descended from Abraham by blood.

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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> The scriptures indicate that while both Jews/Gentiles have same salvation, much as also Male/Female one now in Christ for spiritual blessings, still have distinctiveness still remaining.


then cite/qoute that scripture


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> The scriptures indicate that while both Jews/Gentiles have same salvation, much as also Male/Female one now in Christ for spiritual blessings, still have distinctiveness still remaining.



We are all heirs according to the promise and therefore, children of Abraham. Any distinctiveness ( outside of the promise) is self imposed and not biblical

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## De Jager (Aug 19, 2019)

In Romans 4:16 Paul writes that Abraham is the father of all who have faith.

Contrast that to the ethnic Jews in Jesus' day who said "we have Abraham as our father" but yet rejected the Messiah. And as Jesus said, he is able to raise up children for Abraham "from these stones".

Yes, the Jews are ethnically distinct, but since the inauguration of the new covenant, I do not believe that they are spiritually distinct. The only spiritually distinct people are those who belong to God through Christ - us - we are the chosen priesthood, the holy nation. 

In today's covenant community, there are ethnic Jews, Greeks, Germans, Japanese, and so on.

In the pre-Christ covenant community, there were mostly ethnic Jews, but not entirely! Consider Exodus 12 where God lays out the procedure for a foreigner to become part of the covenant people, even though he was not born a Hebrew.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

De Jager said:


> In Romans 4:16 Paul writes that Abraham is the father of all who have faith.
> 
> Contrast that to the ethnic Jews in Jesus' day who said "we have Abraham as our father" but yet rejected the Messiah. And as Jesus said, he is able to raise up children for Abraham "from these stones".
> 
> ...


I am not disagreeing with any if what has been posted, just wanted to make sure though that we still recognize that Jees remain Such still after being saved!


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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

Reformed Apologist said:


> We are all heirs according to the promise and therefore, children of Abraham. Any distinctiveness ( outside of the promise) is self imposed and not biblical


There are Jews who are physically Jewish, while saved ones become spiritual Jews.


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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Only ethnically. Spiritually they are exactly the same. "There is neither Jew nor Greek.."
> 
> I am not personally a descendant of Abraham (at least I don't think so), but I was a covenant child, unlike most Jews who are born these days. All they can say is that they were descended from Abraham by blood.


That is all that I have been saying here, as their are both saveed and lost Jews.


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> There are Jews who are physically Jewish, while saved ones become spiritual Jews.



I am not arguing that point brother. Who anybody is ( outside of Christ ) is not relevant to me. There are no distinctives for those who are in Christ. That is the whole point.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

Reformed Apologist said:


> I am not arguing that point brother. Who anybody is ( outside of Christ ) is not relevant to me. There are no distinctives for those who are in Christ. That is the whole point.


There are in regards to gender and ethnicity though!


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> There are in regards to gender and ethnicity though!


No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. 
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." ( Gal 3:28)


A better question is, what determines a Jew? If it’s “the promise” then there are no Jews outside of Christ. Is there even such a thing as a spiritual Jew or non spiritual Jew? One thing is certain; those who are in Christ ( whether Jew or Gentile) are grafted in and therefore, they are children of Abraham/ Israel.

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## Dachaser (Aug 19, 2019)

Reformed Apologist said:


> No, I'm sorry, that is not correct.
> "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." ( Gal 3:28)
> 
> 
> A better question is, what determines a Jew? If it’s “the promise” then there are no Jews outside of Christ. Is there even such a thing as a spiritual Jew or non spiritual Jew? One thing is certain; those who are in Christ ( whether Jew or Gentile) are grafted in and therefore, theyscriptures that yopu cited refers are children of Abraham/ Israel.


The scriptures that you cited here refers to all of us now being equally blessed by God in the spiritual blessings are now possess in Jesus equally, but still gender distinctions remain, as God only allows men to be pastors and Elders for example!
People who are Jews by physical birth remain Jews once saved....


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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> The scriptures that you cited here refers to all of us now being equally blessed by God in the spiritual blessings are now possess in Jesus equally, but still gender distinctions remain, as God only allows men to be pastors and Elders for example!
> People who are Jews by physical birth remain Jews once saved....


I can see this is going no where.

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## Reformed Apologist (Aug 19, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> The scriptures that you cited here refers to all of us now being equally blessed by God in the spiritual blessings are now possess in Jesus equally, but still gender distinctions remain, as God only allows men to be pastors and Elders for example!
> People who are Jews by physical birth remain Jews once saved....


I just qouted you scripture that said there is no difference. Why do you insist on perpetuating this bad argument? Do you take exception to the word of God?

Brother, I don’t want to be rude or ungracious, but it just doesn’t seem like you are aiming for a logical dialogue. I believe your position has been soundly refuted. Obfuscation, equivocation and misdirection are not going to change anything. This last comment regarding gender roles has nothing to do with anything. If you have a logical refutation, I’m all ears otherwise, let’s not waste anymore time.

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## Dachaser (Aug 20, 2019)

No difference in regards to spiritual blessings, but still differences based upon Gender and Ethnicity.

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## De Jager (Aug 20, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> No difference in regards to spiritual blessings, but still differences based upon Gender and Ethnicity.



I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

Yes, Jewish and Non-Jewish people are different ethnically; that difference (biologically) is what makes some people have dark hair or skin and some light...

Yes, men and women are different biologically...and have different roles in the church in accord with their gender...

That's pretty basic.

The point we are trying to make is that ethnicity has no bearing on someone's status, role, or privilege in the church. None. I really hope we can agree on that.


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## Dachaser (Aug 20, 2019)

I fully agree with that statement,as I must be misunderstanding what some are saying here, as I have encountered some who told me that we receive Jewish blood once saved, or that Jews changed into Gentiles once saved!


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