# Many or few?



## fralo4truth (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.

For instance, Rev 7:9...

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a *great multitude*, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

As opposed to Matt. 7:14:

"Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and *few* there be that find it."

Looking forward to your thoughts.


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## TrueConvert (Oct 14, 2009)

fralo4truth said:


> I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.
> 
> For instance, Rev 7:9...
> 
> ...



I've always taken those texts to be in perfect harmony. Given the population of the earth, the number of elect is small. Given how many people live in my city, I'd be hard pressed to be able to number even 10% of the world pop. 
If I saw even 3 million people in one place at one time, Rev. 7:9 would be so real to me lol. If I saw 3 million next to 7 billion, I'd feel Matthew 7:14 in an entirely different way.
I know that's not theological, per se, but it's how I've seen those texts


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## Peairtach (Oct 14, 2009)

Eventually there will be many more saved than unsaved when they are all taken together.

Though _often_ it is as our Master describes it, during times of spritual leanness, during times of great gospel outpouring _many_ do come to faith in Christ. And greater times of blessing are promised in Scripture. 

Christ is also there emphasising the difficulty of finding the way of salvation, especially if you do not ask for the assistance of the Spirit, are not willing to leave your sinful baggage at the gate, and are not prepared for an arduous journey, and the _relatively few_ who find it compared with how many could have.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 14, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> Eventually there will be many more saved than unsaved when they are all taken together.



I've often seen this statement, but wonder where it comes from Biblically. Where are you getting this?


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## Peairtach (Oct 14, 2009)

The Bible talks about the redeemed being a large number in Revelation and elsewhere, but does the Bible ever talk about the lost in such terms.

In the light of that, it would be rather anticlimactical if it turned out that the lost outnumbered the saved.

If you are a postmillenialist, as I am, you also believe that the nations are going to be converted to Christ for thousands of years, which would also lead one to believe that the redeemed will outnumber the saved.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> The Bible talks about the redeemed being a large number in Revelation and elsewhere, but does the Bible ever talk about the lost in such terms.
> 
> In the light of that, it would be rather anticlimactical if it turned out that the lost outnumbered the saved.



1) The Bible never talks about the lost in such terms. You are correct, it doesn't give a number whether greater or smaller than the elect.

2) This statement about being anticlimatical is subjective and not based on Scripture whatsoever (just like point 1). So you can't say either way...


Unless you can show in Scripture where I am wrong, I can't see how your original statement is true.


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## Osage Bluestem (Oct 14, 2009)

fralo4truth said:


> I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.
> 
> For instance, Rev 7:9...
> 
> ...



I understand these passages to mean that there is a relatively small number of people in each generation who will believe in Christ and be saved. However, when all of the saved from the beginning until the end are before the throne there will be a great multitude.

For instance, we have 6 billion people or so on earth right now. There is only a small percentage of that number who will be saved. But that is just one generation among many. When we get to heaven we will be there with people from all generations so there will be a vast multitude of God's people brought together throughout the ages to worship him.


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## Southern Twang (Oct 14, 2009)

Does anyone want to take a crack at asserting that there will be more damned for eternity than those elected to eternal life? 

I don't want to impose the postmillennial system on scripture, but systematically, I think we get an indication that the elect will vastly outnumber the unelect as Richard has pointed out.


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## fralo4truth (Oct 14, 2009)

DD2009 said:


> fralo4truth said:
> 
> 
> > I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.
> ...




That certainly is a worthy thought to consider friend. If you're correct, then what that tells us is that 'few' is a relative term. This idea seems to be consistent with the time of Elijah, in which there were seven thousand who had not bowed the knee unto Baal. 

Seven thousand, relative to how many? But if we were to add up that little flock over a period of time....well, you get the picture.


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## Bern (Oct 14, 2009)

I've always understood that God works with a remnant. As much as I'd love it to be true, I don't see the elect outnumbering the reprobate.


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## Peairtach (Oct 14, 2009)

I don't think our Lord is saying that few over all will be saved, or that in every generation fewer rather than more get saved, such that there will never be a generation when the percentage of believers in a nation or in the world does not exceed the number of unbelievers.

The main point is that of those who seek eternal life only a percentage of those sometimes 5%, sometimes 20%, sometimes 80%, sometimes 95%, attain to it. Many are like the Rich Young Ruler, and are not willing for the cost. Certainly of our Lord's generation of Jews, a relative few were saved.

The language of the remnant simply means a subset of the whole. Sometimes the subset is a small number, sometimes it is a mighty nation.

It seems a strange way of doing things for the Scriptures to emphasise the largeness of the number of the redeemed, if they are exceeded, maybe many times over, by the largeness of the number of the lost.

And as a postmillenialist, which I derive from Scripture, I look at these things in that light. It's more of an implication of Scripture's teaching on eschatology, than a clear statement of Scripture.


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Richard Tallach said:


> I don't think our Lord is saying that few over all will be saved, or that in every generation fewer rather than more get saved, such that there will never be a generation when the percentage of believers in a nation or in the world does not exceed the number of unbelievers.
> 
> The main point is that of those who seek eternal life only a percentage of those sometimes 5%, sometimes 20%, sometimes 80%, sometimes 95%, attain to it. Many are like the Rich Young Ruler, and are not willing for the cost. Certainly of our Lord's generation of Jews, a relative few were saved.
> 
> ...



Our Lord does many mighty strange things in our view. So? You aren't really proving anything with such logic. But rather your view is based on a subjective rationality (can I say that?). That is, it seems like this is your opinion, which is your presupposition, and so now you are trying to prove it through rational thoughts, which don't exactly prove anything.


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## Peairtach (Oct 14, 2009)

*Quote from Andrew*


> Our Lord does many mighty strange things in our view. So? You aren't really proving anything with such logic. But rather your view is based on a subjective rationality (can I say that?). That is, it seems like this is your opinion, which is your presupposition, and so now you are trying to prove it through rational thoughts, which don't exactly prove anything.



If you say so. 

I'll maybe do further research on this and get back later.


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## Southern Twang (Oct 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Richard Tallach said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think our Lord is saying that few over all will be saved, or that in every generation fewer rather than more get saved, such that there will never be a generation when the percentage of believers in a nation or in the world does not exceed the number of unbelievers.
> ...



So, do you have any positive, objective evidence to the contrary?


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

No my view is that one cannot say because Scripture isn't clear. I think one who says either way is just assuming.


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## Gesetveemet (Oct 14, 2009)

*MATTHEW 7:13-23*
The Lord Jesus is speaking to mark the godly man from the hypocrite.


*REVELATION 7:9*
Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of the whole Church of Christ.



I like to think that the total sum (of the Church) will be as the sand of the sea. 

*Genesis 32:12 *And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.






fralo4truth said:


> I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.
> 
> For instance, Rev 7:9...
> 
> ...


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

I agree, they will be like the sand of the sea or the stars in the heaven --> the church.

The trouble with setting a number: Revelation 20:7-8, "And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; *their number is like the sand of the sea*."


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## Christusregnat (Oct 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> my view is that one cannot say because *Scripture isn't clear*. I think one who says either way is just assuming.



This is the basic problem with your view then. And, it is likewise very subjective.

All nations will come to Christ, and serve Him, as nations:



> Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee *the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession*. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O *ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth*. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.



One might argue that this is merely a theoretical statement, and that really, the nations are destroyed, but Scripture indicates otherwise:



> Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall *all families of the earth be blessed*.





> Psalm 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and *have mercy upon Zion*: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. 14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof. 15 *So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory*. 16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. 17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. 18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and *the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD*. 19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; 20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; 21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; 22 When the* people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD*.



Note that the heathen (or the nations) will fear the name of the LORD, and God will create a new people (discussed by Paul in Romans 11). The kingdoms of the earth will serve the LORD.



> Psalm 138:4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth. 5 Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD.





> Isaiah 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.



God will set up His standard among the Gentiles, and their whole societies will be so reformed that the kings will be nursing fathers to the church.



> Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: *but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee*. 3 And *the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising*. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the *abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee*. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and *they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD*. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely *the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee*.


 
The abundance of all nations will come to our Lord Jesus Christ, and will praise, worship and serve Him.



> Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and *all nations shall flow unto it*. 3 And *many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem*. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



When Jesus Christ came, at His first coming, the promise of Psalm 2 began to be fulfilled. All of His enemies will be made His footstool.

The train of Scriptures could go on and on. Suffice it to say, the kingdom of sin and Satan will be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: so that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: Christ will rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and he will be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.

Cheers,


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## Romans922 (Oct 14, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > my view is that one cannot say because *Scripture isn't clear*. I think one who says either way is just assuming.
> ...



I don't disagree with that.



> Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee *the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession*. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O *ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth*. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
> 
> One might argue that this is merely a theoretical statement, and that really, the nations are destroyed, but Scripture indicates otherwise:
> 
> ...



Where do you see that societies will be so reformed from this?



> Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: *but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee*. 3 And *the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising*. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the *abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee*. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and *they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD*. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely *the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee*.
> 
> The abundance of all nations will come to our Lord Jesus Christ, and will praise, worship and serve Him.



Do I disagree?



> Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and *all nations shall flow unto it*. 3 And *many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem*. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
> 
> When Jesus Christ came, at His first coming, the promise of Psalm 2 began to be fulfilled. All of His enemies will be made His footstool.



Okay. I agree.



> The train of Scriptures could go on and on. Suffice it to say, the kingdom of sin and Satan will be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption,...



I agree.



> ...countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate:...



Not found in Scripture.



> ...so that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: Christ will rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and he will be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.
> 
> Cheers,



Okay, so basically you really haven't proved anything here according to the OP. Most things here I agree with. The Civil Magistrate, no. But I don't think that is a big problem in this specific issue. It might be the means (in your view), but we are looking at the bigger picture I think.

Societies being reformed, sure if the Gospel goes forth and people are converted in said societies. 

The point is, Scripture is not clear that the multitude of Christians (God followers) will be more or less than the multitude of pagans. At least not yet shown.


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## MW (Oct 14, 2009)

1 Chronicles 21:1, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 15, 2009)

I believe that L. Boettner makes an argument in his book on Predestination that the number of the elect _may be_ be inferred to be greater than the reprobated.

AMR


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## Christusregnat (Oct 15, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> > ...countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate:...
> 
> 
> 
> Not found in Scripture.



Did you take exception to your doctrinal standards? Have you studied the WLC and its proof texts on the matter?
Cheers,

Adam


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## Romans922 (Oct 15, 2009)

No I have not, thanks for pointing out my error. You are right ON THIS POINT. 

But still haven't proved anything...


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## fralo4truth (Oct 15, 2009)

The thought of whether or not the elect outnumber the reprobate is kind of straying away from my original question. So let's get back to the original thought: How do we harmonize the 'few' with the 'multitude'?

It is practically inescapable that Rev. 7:9 has reference to the totality of God's people. What must be determined is what the 'few' stands for. Is it a _relative term_, as has been suggested in this thread, suggesting that the elect are the minority in relation to the reprobate in a particular generation? Or something like this?

There is one other possibility that I know of. I have been around many who have suggested that the 'life' entered into is not equivalent to that eternal life that qualifies an individual for heaven's pure world. Instead it simply has reference to kind of a more abundant life here in this world, possibly involving knowledge of the true gospel of Christ, in opposition to the Arminian scheme which is held by multitudes today. The 'few' would then be a reference to a minority within the elect (kind of a remnant within the remnant if you will) who will be blessed to experience this 'life'.

Can't really say that I align myself to it but in order to open-minded I thought that I would set forth the thought for purposes of discussion.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 15, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> No I have not, thanks for pointing out my error. You are right ON THIS POINT.
> 
> But still haven't proved anything...



Welcome, Sir.

Do you believe that the nations could be constitutionally Christian without the bulk of the population being individually Christians? 

Cheers,


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## Romans922 (Oct 15, 2009)

Would America be an example of that?


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## Peairtach (Oct 15, 2009)

fralo4truth said:


> The thought of whether or not the elect outnumber the reprobate is kind of straying away from my original question. So let's get back to the original thought: How do we harmonize the 'few' with the 'multitude'?
> 
> It is hardly inescapable that Rev. 7:9 has reference to the totality of God's people. What must be determined is what the 'few' stands for. Is it a _relative term_, as has been suggested in this thread, suggesting that the elect are the minority in relation to the reprobate in a particular generation? Or something like this?
> 
> ...



The idea of a "remnant" of faithful true believers arose in the Old Testament prophets. It is always a subset of the visible church i.e. all those who profess Christianity by baptism and the Lord's Supper, but that remnant could vary in different times and places, from 1% to 99% and anything in between.

The idea that "the few" of the text is a reference to Calvinists specifically is untenable.  The Gospels don't deal in Calvinists and Arminians as such, but in believers in Christ and non-believers in Christ. The " few" in the text are true believers of all shades, while "the many" are unbelievers of all shades.


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## Christusregnat (Oct 15, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Would America be an example of that?



America, as a political Union of States, has never been explicitly constitutionally Christian (though good arguments could be made that it was implicitly). Certainly, the DOI was explicitly Reformed in its ancestry. All of the original States were constitutionally Christian. None of them have been for several decades now.

Do you think, however, that what the Bible prophecies about kings, rulers, judges and nations could be true if an itty-bitty remnant were all that truly believed?

Cheers,

Adam


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## Romans922 (Oct 15, 2009)

Explain?


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## Christusregnat (Oct 15, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Explain?



The covenant God made with Abraham included all families, nations, tongues and peoples. The model of Israel is not shifted to the church, but is prophecied to be repeated to all nations, this we call Christendom, or Christ's reign over all of the nations of the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. In other words, Christ is head of Church and State, and is to be acknowledged and worshipped in both spheres. 

For more detailed explanation of what used to be standard fare Presbyterian doctrine, you can read Symington's book, Messiah the Prince.

The reason that this affects the opening post is that the prophecies of the Old Covenant regarding the New (as I cited above), indicate that the bulk of the Gentiles will be saved. God will put His Name on all nations of the earth, and they will serve Him, before Christ returns in judgment.

Cheers,


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## Romans922 (Oct 15, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Explain?
> ...



Right that is what I thought you were saying but I was trying to avoid being trapped. It is clear you are a postmillennialist, I am not of that variety. I am an optimistic amillennialist however. That should answer your question.


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## Peairtach (Oct 16, 2009)

Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords _unto_ His mediatorial Church-nation, which constitutes the subjects of His Kingdom.

He does not rule over the nations directly as His mediatorial kingdom as did e.g. David or Solomon. 

No church establishment, national covenant or application of God's law to the state, can constitute a nation like America or Britain Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom. 

The members of the visible, and particularly the invisible Church, constitute the subjects of Christ's kingdom.

Rulers of the various nation states are not

(a) The Lord's Anointed. As were the leaders of Israel, including Moses and Joshua and David and Solomon.

(b) Nor deputies or vicars of the Lord's Anointed.

But they are

(c) Ministers of God

Having said that, I believe it is the duty of the nations of the world to recognise Christ's rule by appropriate church establishments, national covenanting, and *appropriate and biblical* application of God's law to the state.


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