# Singing the National anthem in church?



## Kevin

This morning we opened our service with a moment of silence & the singing of O Canada and God Save the Queen.

This is fairly standard practice in this part of Canada on/around the 11th of November. In Presbyterian churches (at least) it is done prior to the call to worship.

I was wondering what your practice is? Do you do anything at this time of year? If not now do you do anything for "national day" (i.e. July 4th, Canada day, etc).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

At the PC(USA) churches I went to growing up we always sang "Patriotic Hymns" on the Sunday before the 4th. But the ARP church I go to now does not.


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## VictorBravo

No, we never do anything like that.


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## py3ak

If I knew something like that were going to happen I would probably arrive late.


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## SolaScriptura

That is a disgusting practice. It is one thing for Christians to have secondary loyalties to their nation, and to even be proud of their nation... but for the local church to come together and sing the nation's praises is out of line. And this is coming from a US Army chaplain who leads worship in an Army chapel on an Army installation! I don't even fly an American flag in my chapel during worship, because what unites us and identifies us as Christians is our relationship to Christ, not to a particular nation state.

As I challenged my congregation this morning: we ought not think of ourselves as American Christians, but as Christians who happen to be American. (Or in your case: you are not a Canadian Christian, but a Christian who happens to be a Canadian.)


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## OPC'n

This goes entirely against Scripture. This is breaking the 2nd Commandment and is serious stuff. They have forgotten the regulative principle of worship! I came out of the PCA about two years ago. I never considered that church reformed although in theory they held to all the doctrines held in the Confession. They celebrated x-mas and had candles etc in their services. No! God's house belongs to Him and we should remember that we are privileged to be there to worship Him!


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## Kevin

Just a reminder...

This practice at this time of year is to honour the veterans of the "Great War" & is (in my opinion) distinct from a national celebration such as Dominion Day. For the record we do NOT do this at the first of July (Canada Day).

Dpoes anyone else see this as a valid distinction?


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## OPC'n

I don't see the REASON for doing this making it ok. It just does not belong in the worship service for any reason. Does your church hold to the the regulative principle of worship?...at least in theory?


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## 21st Century Calvinist

I would not encourage singing the National Anthem/God Save the Queen in church. I do agree that it is biblical to pray for our leaders.
I have no problem with the 2 minutes of silence on Remembrance Sunday followed by an appropriate prayer. It is good to remember and to give thanks to God for His manifold blessings to us in war or in peace. This usually takes place pre call to worship.


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## JBaldwin

> As I challenged my congregation this morning: we ought not think of ourselves as American Christians, but as Christians who happen to be American. (Or in your case: you are not a Canadian Christian, but a Christian who happens to be a Canadian.)



I agree, and patriotic music should be saved for other places, not worship of our Lord.


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## CDM

The PCA church I used to attend, would sing "Proud to be an American" and other "patriotic" _songs_ (note: not even hymns) on the 4th. The U.S. flag and the "Christian" flag were always, faithfully, behind the pulpit every Lord's Day.


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## jaybird0827

If anything it ought to be Psalm 33:12-22.


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## Prufrock

I think it not appropriate;

I. Even if it could be argued that song is the same as prayer, singing the national anthem is, nevertheless, not a prayer. We are not commanded to sing hymns of our nation in the worship of God.

II. This reason aside (which I think to be the defining reason), I think the case is just as strongly made against the practice in churches which _do not_ hold the RPW (although, instead of convincing them of this, perhaps we should just convince them to adhere to the RPW...hmmm...); for this practice combines our duty to God in worship with patriotism for a specific country, ultimately leading to the, at least, tacit implication, that one who does not love liberty or the ideals of our country is "less on God's side."


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## Gesetveemet

Our Psalter has this listed under doxologies. 



AMERICA. (National Song.)

My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died!
Land of the pilgrims' pride!
From every mountainside
Let freedom ring! 

My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills;
My heart with rapture thrills,
Like that above. 

Our father's God to Thee,
Author of liberty,
To Thee we sing;
Long may our land be bright
With freedom's holy light;
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God our King!


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## staythecourse

Church....................................................................................................................................................................................State


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## staythecourse

That was a test. Biblically I don't see it. I only see praying for the servants of the nation but that goes beyond lifting them in prayer


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## smhbbag

> If anything it ought to be Psalm 33:12-22.



I was thinking Isaiah 1:

Ah, sinful nation,
a people loaded with guilt,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.

6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.

7 Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.

8 The Daughter of Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a field of melons,
like a city under siege.

9 Unless the LORD Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,

17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;

20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword."
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

21 See how the faithful city
has become a harlot!
She once was full of justice;
righteousness used to dwell in her—
but now murderers!

22 Your silver has become dross,
your choice wine is diluted with water.

23 Your rulers are rebels,
companions of thieves;
they all love bribes
and chase after gifts.
They do not defend the cause of the fatherless;
the widow's case does not come before them.

24 Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
"Ah, I will get relief from my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.

25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.

26 I will restore your judges as in days of old,
your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City."


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## biggandyy

Before I begin our worship service I lead the congregation in the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag and to the Christian Flag. We owe our loyalties to our Nation because if we are told to obey and respect our civil authorities it is fitting to pledge to our Nation our portion of our humanity and treasure to preserve that which God chooses to bless.


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## SolaScriptura

biggandyy said:


> Before I begin our worship service I lead the congregation in the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag and to the Christian Flag.





Are you being serious?


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## biggandyy

Yes. Are we all not soldiers? Are we all not on the battle lines in a spiritual war? Does not God place us where He wills? He thought it fitting for me to be in the United States of America to serve Him and to obey the authorities He placed over me. Am I not to respect those authorities with all my strength and might and fervor? Do I not owe my nation a loyalty above most (but not all) loyalties?

Until recently America has been the greatest nation on the Earth. But from my dispensational viewpoint, that place of honor can not last. And even though I know that America must diminish for the Antichrist to rise, I will still obey the earthly authorities put over me.

Jesus is my King, call America a satrap if you will.


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## toddpedlar

biggandyy said:


> Yes. Are we all not soldiers? Are we all not on the battle lines in a spiritual war? Does not God place us where He wills? He thought it fitting for me to be in the United States of America to serve Him and to obey the authorities He placed over me. Am I not to respect those authorities with all my strength and might and fervor? Do I not owe my nation a loyalty above most (but not all) loyalties?
> 
> Until recently America has been the greatest nation on the Earth. But from my dispensational viewpoint, that place of honor can not last. And even though I know that America must diminish for the Antichrist to rise, I will still obey the earthly authorities put over me.
> 
> Jesus is my King, call America a satrap if you will.



Hm. Well, I guess I don't need to share my 2 cents. This is dreadful, in my opinion. What do either of those pledges have to do with worship of God Almighty???


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## Pilgrim's Progeny




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## sotzo

biggandyy said:


> Before I begin our worship service I lead the congregation in the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag and to the Christian Flag. We owe our loyalties to our Nation because if we are told to obey and respect our civil authorities it is fitting to pledge to our Nation our portion of our humanity and treasure to preserve that which God chooses to bless.




There are many things we owe a measure of loyalty to, and for biblical reasons. Yet we shouldn't pledge that loyalty to my job, my family, or even country during the public, corporate worship of God. The reason we shouldn't is that the public, corporate worship of God is proclaiming, through the preached word and sacrament administration, that Christ is our ultimate loyalty because of his grace toward us. Actually, it is much less about any loyalty even shown by us to Christ and much more about seeing how he exercises his gracious loyalty toward us.

I think you have a false dilemma on your hands, that because we are commanded to obey and respect the authorities means that we have to do so within the context of public worship. I don't see how obedience and respect of our civil magistrates requires that....on the other hand, I do see how pledging allegiance to the flag drives a wedge between us and God in the midst of a worship service.


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## biggandyy

Those pledges are said before the service begins, not during, kind of like the opening ceremonies before all the teaching and singing and worship begins. Deacon Board approves it as does the congregation. I don't find it doing violence to scripture, as long as it is before, as we practice it. Separation of Church and State is fine, but exclusion isn't.


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## Grymir

I like the singing of Patriotic Hymns...While they still have references to God in them. Once or twice a year isn't gonna kill me nor the church. I am thankfull to be an American. And thankful to God and like to express it. Which is what these songs capture.

It's not like they are self centered modern praise music.


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## tellville

Just curious, would the magisterial reformers have been against singing national songs before or during the service?


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## toddpedlar

biggandyy said:


> Those pledges are said before the service begins, not during, kind of like the opening ceremonies before all the teaching and singing and worship begins. Deacon Board approves it as does the congregation. I don't find it doing violence to scripture, as long as it is before, as we practice it. Separation of Church and State is fine, but exclusion isn't.



Whether the deacon board approves it, and whether the congregation does, is irrelevant. You could have a wicked deacon board that approves keno-style gambling before the pastor gives a call to worship, and that would not make it right. Similarly in this case.

Do you honestly believe that the congregation views the pledges as NOT being part of Sunday worship, if it's faithfully done every Sunday right before the call to worship is done? If so, then I'm afraid you don't have a good sense of what regularity of practice does in people's minds. The fact that this routine is undergone each and every week cements the idea that those pledges are part of what the church does every bit as much as every other part of the Lord's Day's activities.


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## Quickened

The minute we walk through those church doors the main and sole focus we should have is on our Lord and savior. I think reciting the pledge or anything of that nature is entirely inappropriate at a church service.

What came to mind was that man's chief end is to give glory to God not the state. Yet thats what seems like is happening when one begins a service this way.


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## Tim

I agree what Todd has said on this matter and appreciate his bluntness. I also don't view this as a matter of preference. This must be a matter that is considered according to the Biblically prescribed elements of worship. As such, I think it quite important that this sort of practice is condemned in the worship of the Lord God Almighty, because it is clearly not worship of Him. 

I have been quite saddened to hear of those who have related instances of this practice in the church.


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## beej6

When does worship begin? The minute you walk through the door? If so I'd bet there's plenty that goes on in your church that wouldn't qualify as worship. Unless you are lucky enough to have a sanctuary dedicated *ONLY* to worship services, I suggest you parse your words carefully before criticizing another brother's pastoral practice.

If your congregation doesn't know the difference between what happens before the call to worship and after, I suggest that they need to be better educated.

Having said that, as to the OP, an occasional use of a national anthem *prior* to the call to worship is acceptable. Even given what I just said, I'd be concerned that regular use of same would be confusing, especially to visitors.


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## toddpedlar

beej6 said:


> When does worship begin? The minute you walk through the door? If so I'd bet there's plenty that goes on in your church that wouldn't qualify as worship. Unless you are lucky enough to have a sanctuary dedicated *ONLY* to worship services, I suggest you parse your words carefully before criticizing another brother's pastoral practice.
> 
> If your congregation doesn't know the difference between what happens before the call to worship and after, I suggest that they need to be better educated.
> 
> Having said that, as to the OP, an occasional use of a national anthem *prior* to the call to worship is acceptable. Even given what I just said, I'd be concerned that regular use of same would be confusing, especially to visitors.



If one is "leading his congregation" in the pledge of allegiance to the US flag every single Sunday, then despite the fact that it is before the official call to worship, it is an official church activity. i am questioning it not based on the fact that the congregation knows or doesn't know that "worship has started". That's really irrelevant, in my opinion. It's done every single week - it's something that, I'm sure, people expect to happen every week as part of their weekly routine. This is a major problem because it effectively becomes a part of worship, whether you say so or not. 

Furthermore, in this case it is the pastor who is leading the congregation in these things - why do they follow? I suppose if some random person got up to lead the pledge, they'd still follow, so perhaps this objection fails - but nevertheless it is an issue. A church leader is taking part in a secular (take it or leave it, but that is what this is - a secular activity) activity, and leading with the full expectation that everyone follows suit... each week, before worship.

Put in the VERY best light, this is confusing. I think, though, that it is FAR worse than merely confusing.


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## sotzo

beej6 said:


> When does worship begin? The minute you walk through the door? If so I'd bet there's plenty that goes on in your church that wouldn't qualify as worship. Unless you are lucky enough to have a sanctuary dedicated *ONLY* to worship services, I suggest you parse your words carefully before criticizing another brother's pastoral practice.



This objection fails because the "plenty that goes on before worship" (I imagine you are referring to talking, getting seated, greeting each other) is miles from standing up saluting the American flag and being led by the minister in the pledge of allegiance. Such an activity isn't even in the same ballpark as these other activities you may have in mind. Certainly, it may be wise to look at some of these other activities and determine whether worship is suffering by not keeping them in check. But they are not on par with saying the pledge of allegiance (a secular creedal formulation).

The mixing of the pledge of allegiance amidst proper creeds used in worship (Nicene, Apostles', etc) is confusing at best. The average lay-person, and especially our children who are being raised in the faith, will not separate these things in their own minds. I just don't see what the potential upside is of having the pledge and flags incorporated even remotely close to the worship service, such that it would eliminate the almost unavoidable downside.

Can love for our country not be celebrated / shown elsewhere?


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## biggandyy

The minister does not lead, I do, I am the song leader. The minister does not begin the service until well after a few hymns are sung and a time to let folks stand up and greet new folks and friends of the church who haven't been around for a spell.


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## toddpedlar

so what's the signal to "get things going"? Is it the pledge, followed by hymns?


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## Kevin

As far as the OP goes, This was in the context of a moment of silence for the soldiers & sailors who lost there lives in the world wars. This was not a "national" day such as July 1st (or July 4th in the US). This takes place once a year only & is not repeated on July 1st. It also occures prior to the call to worship.

In my mind this (remembering & honouring past sacrifice) is substantially diferent from nationalistic or patriotic elements within a worship service.


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## he beholds

I don't know how to "thank" people for their responses yet, but some of you guys were dead on! I do NOT think it is at all appropriate to sing patriotic hymns during a worship service. Nor would I think it acceptable to sing Jingle Bells on a Sunday that happens to fall on or near Dec.25. 
When we are actively worshipping our Lord, we are to be worshipping him alone! I'd be quicker to argue that it is NEVER acceptable to sing patriotic songs or pledge allegiance to a flag (oops, see my signature) than I would be to argue for singing patriotic songs in church! 
As for the OP, do you really believe that fallen soldiers are benefiting from you singing songs--in church or anywhere??


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## Kevin

Jessica, no the fallen soldiers recieve no benefit. The moment of silence is for the benefit (?) of those observing it.


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## smhbbag

Jessica - I think the 'thanks' feature is enabled after you reach a certain minimum number of posts. I think the minimum is around 25.


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## SolaScriptura

If a local congregation wants to come together (for fun and recreation… you know, something called “hanging out”) and have a 4th of July bash or even a Christmas party (!), I think that is perfectly acceptable. In fact, I wish more Christians would see their fellow congregants as friends. If at one of these patriotic themed get-togethers they decide to thank all the veterans or recite the Pledge of Allegiance or sing patriotic songs, then so be it. 

However, doing these activities as a part of Sunday activities isn’t acceptable. Specifically, it has been argued that saying the Pledge and/or doing patriotic stuff “technically prior” to the start of the formal worship service makes it distinct from the worship service and therefore proper. 

First, let me point out that this is still occurring on Sunday, the Lord’s Day. I find it singularly offensive that on the very day reserved for expressing devotion to God that Christians would choose to direct their attention and affections away from God and onto the State. And that is precisely what saying the Pledge or singing the National Anthem does: it rouses feelings of pride in our nation. To stoke these things on the day reserved for God alone seems like we’re trying to provoke Him. Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is neither a work of necessity or mercy. So don’t do it.

Second, even if the Lord’s Day connection I’ve made isn’t authoritative, it really does stress the bounds of credulity that something done every week at the same time – (hey, we have a phrase for that type of thing… it’s called “doing something religiously!”) – isn’t considered a part of the service. The Lord’s Day activities of the local church properly focus on worship. What brings the people to the building on _that_ day is their obligation to worship. To have patriotic elements thrown into the business of the day creates a link that is nationalistic and improper. I’ll reassert what I said in my first response: In the Bible great lengths are gone to by the authors to highlight the multi-ethnic and utterly non-nationalistic nature of the Body of Christ. The one characteristic of all Believers in all nations at all times is that we are sojourners. It is a sad testament to our carnality that the Church repeatedly stresses nationalistic bonds over and against the spiritual unity that is ours in Christ. Nationalism in the worship of the local church creates the picture that we’re being good citizens by our worship and that what brings us together and unites us is as much our commitment to our country as to God.


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## TimV

Great work, Ben, especially the part about Nationalism.


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## VictorBravo

TimV said:


> Great work, Ben, especially the part about Nationalism.



I agree. 

Thanks Ben. As someone who loves (and sometimes fears for) my fair country almost like a mother, I couldn't agree more.


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## SolaScriptura

I'm pretty sure that some will read my remarks and think, "He's one of those people who isn't proud of America and thinks that America and her history are bad... He's un-American."

Please know that is not the case. I serve in the US Army for crying out loud! As I've posted in other threads, I think that America is a generally good nation - as good as a nation can be - whose influence in the world throughout her history has been essentially positive. I don't talk bad about her, I get teary-eyed thinking about the Stars and Stripes, mom, baseball and apple pie... 

But my loyalty to and appreciation for my country and it's way of life is intentionally and willfully kept distinct and secondary to my devotion to Christ and His people.


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