# Question on Femininity in Young Boys



## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 25, 2006)

I have a friend at work who asked a question about his son.

He feels his son is too effeminate.

He likes dolls, Barbies, draws things "girly." Dances around on the soccer field. Skips. Etc.

He's afraid his son will turn out "gay."

For those with kids, how would you handle this? He is not raising him to be gay or to be feminine. Your thoughts?


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 25, 2006)

How old is the son?


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## ChristopherPaul (Sep 25, 2006)

This is a tough one. I would need to know more. I assume he has sisters or else his parents are buying him Barbie dolls (which would be problem number 1). What is he watching on television?

Ultimately, I feel it is best for any child to avoid TV, and instead rely on imagination to entertain. Read to them and force them to envision the story themselves. Read stories from the Scriptures to them for fun. Read how David not only took the giant down but lopped off the enemies head.

I believe the over exposure to media directly and indirectly promotes homosexuality along with the reversal of gender roles. 

My four year old son has three sisters and plays dress up often, but it is usually as a warrior, a dad, or a super hero. Just last weekend he had on a Bible man mask and cape with princess slippers. It was funny at first and he and I laughed over it, but as the day went on and I saw him continuing to play with the superhero outfit along with the princess slippers, I rebuked him.

Ultimately I would suggest starting with what the child is exposed to. What is feeding his mind? If the right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away.


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## BobVigneault (Sep 25, 2006)

1 Cor 16:13 Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, ACT LIKE MEN, be strong. 


I believe it is ok to teach our boys that there is a way that men act.

Most importantly we are to overcome the weakness pass on to us by Adam - a tendency toward passivity. We need to teach our boys to reject passivity and take responsibility for protecting our sisters. We teach my 3 year old son that he must protect his sisters though they are 6 and 11. He takes this very seriously though he is troubled that he is too small. He knows I will help him fight the bad guys. 

When he starts playing with dolls I let him do it if he is helping his sister take care of her baby but if he is by himself I tell him that boys don't play with dolls.

Last week I took him to Monster Machines in Motion. He got to sit on a workmans lap and "help" drive an excavator. With his construction helmet on he sat in every construction vehicle there and I took his picture. 

It's ok to teach our boys to act manly as long as we teach them the godly purpose for being manly - to be responsible for our wives and sisters and fight, if necessary to protect them. This will require excercising and training and discipline. Teach them to work hard to make money to help the hungry.

This is not teaching machismo, this is teaching boys to act manly for biblical reasons.


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## Civbert (Sep 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> I have a friend at work who asked a question about his son.
> 
> He feels his son is too effeminate.
> ...



Maybe he is naturally "Feminine". He's not gay unless he _decides_ to live as a gay person. 

The dad needs to be careful to love his son with the personality God gave him. I played with dolls too when I was a kid - they called them GI Joe's and action figures. (The person who came up with the term "action figure" was a marketing genius. Boys generally won't play with "dolls" - but call them "action figures" and it's cool!)

Personalities are not sinful, our thoughts and actions are sinful. Maybe this kid will struggle with sinful thoughts for the same sex. That will be tough. I struggle with sinful thoughts for the opposite sex. Just as much a sin. But we (society) tend to anathematize people who seem different from the norm, those who look strange, or are fat or have a lisp, or a birthmark. 

The father needs to love his son no matter how "girlish" he may be and teach him about sin and how to correctly love his neighbor. Some guys are "feminine" but had healthy relationships with their fathers and did not suffer from "gender confusion". They get married and have children who act "normal". 

My worry is a dad that gets overly worried about his boy being too "girlie" is going to inadvertently make is boy feel rejected so that he seeks male approval later in life. The dad needs to be an example of what being a man means - and it's not watching football or shooting guns, it's being a spiritual leader in the family, loving his wife, and teaching his son through example of leadership and love and moral and ethical integrity.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 25, 2006)

The child is 6 years old.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 25, 2006)

Okay, there is NOTHING WRONG with playing with dolls (or dancing) for boys. Boys have to learn to be LOVING daddies...not daddies that avoid their babies "because boys don't play with dolls". I don't tell my daughters that they can't play with trucks or go camping because they are girls.

I have a boy that LOVES to play house with his sisters and carries a babydoll around the house (can even change it's cloth diaper). He is a VERY masculine child also...he will definately be the type to watch football and go hunting when he is older...but he likes taking care of babies also. The ultimate daddy in 20yrs.

My other boy HATES sports...loves to cook. He's not feminine...he's just geeky (kid has can photographically memorize science encyclopedias). Oh, and he picked up crocheting faster than his sister (and yes, I am teaching him how to sew).

My s-dad could sew, cook, shoot, play ball, tear apart and rebuild computers/radios/mustangs or anything else, was the family lactivist, could change a cloth diaper, etc. I would never have called him a sissy, you might get beat.



(btw, skipping is an excellent motor skill and is supposed to be taught to ALL children.)
[Edited on 9-25-2006 by LadyFlynt]

[Edited on 9-25-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## Civbert (Sep 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> The child is 6 years old.



That's all! Much to soon to be getting worried. That dad needs to get a grip. At that age the kid might try on dresses and wearing makeup and it wouldn't mean a thing. Anything the kid does at that age is imitation of everything he sees. But we don't need to keep little boys away from their mothers or sisters. I think LadyFlnt is correct. A kid that age can play kitchen and dress up and play with dolls and it doesn't mean about sexuality. It may be a positive thing - a good dad likes to hold babies.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 25, 2006)

Oh, 6yrs? Goodness, let the kid play. He's totally normal!


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## RamistThomist (Sep 25, 2006)

> (btw, skipping is an excellent motor skill and is supposed to be taught to ALL children.)



Absolutely. They made us do skipping drills in football. My forty meter/yard dash time went down from 5.2 to 4.8 (I know taht's not that fast).


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 25, 2006)

We should beware of using John Wayne as a the standard of masculinity. 

Our idea of masculinity is culturally conditioned by our history and mythology of the old west/south. 

I met men (no offense intended here) in Europe and the UK who seemed more "effiminate" than most men I know in the states. 

My folks are from Kansas and my Mom's family are from soutwest Kansas and NE New Mexico. Those aren't "effeminate" folk! Being swishy down there is a little dangerous, but I met some pretty tough fellows in the UK (ever play rugby?) who would probably be regarded as a little effeminate in Dodge City.

Of course, some folk said that John Wayne walked like a girl! I guess they didn't say it to his face, but it was said.

Masculinity is about doing the right thing when it's not easy as much as anything else. I know some fellows who think of themselves as "tough guys" who are pretty passive-agressive when it's "crunch time."

rsc

S


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## Kevin (Sep 25, 2006)

I would like to say that i disagree with those who say "don't worry". 
Especially moms who encourage boys to "play daddy". This activity is seen by other boys as gender inapropriate role-playing and herein lies the problem.

I have worked with young people for years & have seen boys in their late teens (16+) recruited by gay men several times.

The process is painfully similar in every case that I have seen. The (usually older) gay man befriends a troubled young man. He is kind & understanding, unlike the boys parents. He plays on the sense of angst that is common in teens and tells the boy that the "real" problem is that no-one can understand him because he is "special".

In almost every case (excepting those that start with sexual abuse) hours are spent talking about every problem the boy has ever had with his parents--especialy his dad. the seducer will play up ANY sense of isolation of "otherness" that the boy has and explain it as "proof" that he is gay. Any boy who ever engaged in gender inappropriate role-playing will be told that the reason he did these things is BECAUSE he is really gay.

A young man who is troubled to start with will have every problem or situation in his life (going back to childhood) re-interpreted to provide "proof" that he is gay.

These older gay men are master manipulaters, and they know how to "spin" almost any event as "proof" of homosexuality.

For this reason I would strongly advise fathers to be pro-active and to stop any gender inappropriate play as soon as possible. Your son by Gods grace will never be preyed upon by these people, but I believe a wise father will not give them the opening they are looking for.

BTW please pray for K, A, & S, that God will deliver them from the lifestyle they have entered. retelling this has reminded me of these young people. A especially made a profession of faith but was unable to resist the temptation.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2006)

Kevin,

The main issues in your post are

1) boys with no father/masculine role

2) boys that have not been taught that it is NORMAL

3) the parents have apparently PUSHED the boy to not be able to play certain things. So the issue was the leanings of the boy and being taught that it was not normal...not in being permitted to just play and be taught context (ie., you can be daddy, but not mommy)

You also are under the misunderstanding that gay men are automatically feminized. There are MANY "macho" gay men...the difference between them and other men is their sexual diviance.

Case in point...I know a handful of guys that I was in youth group with that were "taken advantage of" by a deacon. All these boys were VERY masculine, would have NEVER played dolls, but did not have a father role.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## Kevin (Sep 26, 2006)

Ladyflint, Sorry I was unclear! 

My concern is that recruiters are devious & wil use any opening. Thus I believe fathers should step in and over-rule moms on gender appropriate role-playing.

Sorry but sadly my personal expirience with "gay" men has not given me any misconceptions about them being "automaticly feminized".

My thinking is why give them an opening. 

BTW I personaly know from 2 counseling cases of this exact issue-- use of dolls when a small child-- being exploited by recruiters. In both cases no one involved was overtly feminized.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2006)

Then boys should not be permitted to draw or write, become artists or authors of any form...cause you know, there are alot of gays in those arenas.

This could go on and on.

Like I said, the parents role is the MAIN thing. And you pointed out that that was the primary failure in each of those cases. The aggressors work from there. If the boy played with dolls, they use that. If he didn't, they WILL find SOMETHING to use. I know also...I watched the fallout after the years of abuse (mental, emotional, relational, and physical), heard the stories, and was fortunate enough to watch the guy be convicted (unfortunately he kept his military retirement).

My own brother...the daredevil and VERY boyish...carried around a carebear till he was 7yrs...and sucked his fingers till he was 11 (took me taking his picture and blackmailing him with it to get him to quit...heaven forbid the neighbourhood boys know the toughest one sucked his fingers still  ). Trust me, because of parental involvement, if a "recruiter" tried to manipulate or hit on him...the "recruiter" would find themselves knocked flat. My brother (who played dolls as well as my playing army with him) is a chauvinist pig (I can say it, he's proud of it).


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## Civbert (Sep 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kevin_
> Ladyflint, Sorry I was unclear!
> 
> My concern is that recruiters are devious & wil use any opening. Thus I believe fathers should step in and over-rule moms on gender appropriate role-playing.
> ...



Sounds like it would not have matter much what the boys did as a child. You said yourself that these men would twist any incident into "proof" of being gay.

It seems the larger issue has to do with what kind of relationship these boys had with their dads and moms. I think good examples are more important than making sure your boys do not play with dolls. Many a doll playing boy did not grow up to be a gay man. And I would not be surprised to that some "gay" men did not play with Barbies. 

No. I think having dads who are good examples by being spiritual leaders, spending time teaching their kids good moral values from Scripture. I think most gay men come from problem families or families that demonstrated poor or ambiguous moral values with dads who seem to reject their boys. That's what these perverts take advantage of. 

I worry that in this particular example, the dad is going to do more harm than good since he's sweating over the girlishness of a 6-yr-old. If he's that uptight, what kind of message is he going to send his child. The kid will think the father thinks there is something inherently perverted about the kid. And, as you said, some predator can take advantage of that feeling of being rejected by the dad who was constantly freaking out over the way he walked and the toys he liked to play with. 

Almost every 16-yr-old kid is going to have angst and feelings of uncertainty. They may be confused and frustrated. And they will jump at an opportunity to have a sympathetic ear. Sometimes the ear is a good role model, sometimes the ear belongs to a predator. If we raise our kids up knowing the truths of Scripture, and teach them that God loves them even when they feel strange and different, and we demonstrate that love, I think the child will be better equipped to deal with those confused times. And dads and moms need to be there - acting like calm and responsible adults (instead of freaking out when a kid messes up) - ready to discipline with love - the kid can make it. 

I also have many doubt about what many would consider "gender appropriate" roles for children. This sounds a bit paranoid. Are boys allowed to cook, do dishes, hold babies, enjoy art? Are girls allowed to climb, play with bugs, throw balls, use tools? What is "gender appropriate" - and why? 

P.S. I think kids need to learn what love means - so they don't confuse their sexual urges and feelings for love. It's OK for men to bond with other men - or show affection with hugs and kisses. In some ways these bonds are easier to build with men then between men and women. (Women are a whole other species - they can be very confusing.) But love is command of us, which means it must be volitional. Emotions, desires, urges, affections, are often beyond our control. We are commanded to love our enemies - the people we may have the least desire to be around. A teenage can know the difference so they he (or she) does not fall for the lies of predators. 

I expect the kids who fall for predators were also confused about what love means - and that sexual urges are not evidence or examples of love. And being gay does not mean being attracted to men - it means acting out those desires sexually. Being gay is a choice.


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## BJClark (Sep 26, 2006)

C. Matthew McMahon,

Two of my nephews are the same way, they are built less than what the 'world' describes as masculine. However, they both play sports, are in the band at school, they both played with dolls when they were little, and they also played/play super hero's and used/use sticks for swords and guns. I would not consider any of them to be 'gay'.

None of them are nearly as aggressive as my son, who is built with a more 'worldly' view of a what a boy should look like. My son if given a choice between playing with a doll (which he has done) and tearing the dolls head off (which he's also done) would be to tear the dolls head off and run them over with his trucks. 

My sister and brother do not struggle with teaching their son's to be tender and gentle, it comes naturally to them. But I do have to teach my son to temper his aggression, which is not as easy.

I still remember the first time He seen grown men playing football. he was about 2 years old, his entire facial expression changed from laughing to seriousness, and he bent down and literally started charging at them. And has been like a bull in a china shop since. 

It's funny though, because even though he's built like he is, he doesn't care for football, he would rather be out skateboarding or riding his bike, where he doesn't have to depend on other people to accomplish a goal. He loves to compete against his friends and his own personal best in whatever tricks they can do on either one. 

Yesterday, he told me he wants to try out for the Chorus at school, as he loves to sing, so do I prevent him from doing that just because it's not 'manly' to be in Chorus? No, because I don't know how God will use that gift in his future.

It's hard, as I have to step out of mother mode trying to protect my child from MY fears of how I think he will turn out. If I don't force him into certain activities, I think he should do to make him into my definition of a man, and in essence trying to make him into the image of what I think He should be, instead of learning to trust that God created him for His (God's)glory, and not mine.

I have to continually remind myself, He is God's child before He is my own, and God only gave him to me to raise and train up for Him.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by BJClark]

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by BJClark]


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## SRoper (Sep 26, 2006)

"Are girls allowed to climb, play with bugs, _throw guts_, use tools?"

The PB filter claims another victim!


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2006)

I was thinking animal guts 

Now it makes more sense.


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## Civbert (Sep 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> "Are girls allowed to climb, play with bugs, _throw guts_, use tools?"
> 
> The PB filter claims another victim!



Huh? .... Oh! 

Throw b a l l s . 

Good grief!


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> We should beware of using John Wayne as a the standard of masculinity...



Perhaps.

But I sincerely believe that The Duke is a much better model of masculinity than what passes in our modern culture. 

As for those effeminate men you met in Europe... well, if they're the same liberal, postmodern, "pansified" wastes of space that typify most European cultures today... you can keep 'em.

Rangers lead the way.


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## Herald (Sep 26, 2006)

While I may not get worried that the boy will turn out gay, I certainly would instruct him about manhood. What was not said in Matt's post was how much time the Dad was spending with his boy. Does he model the way a man should be (spiritually _and_ physically)? Is the boy introduced to some of the great male heros of the faith? Does he have other boys to play with regularly, or is he growing up in a house full of females (mother and sisters)? The difficult part with these questions is that they provide only a crude framework to go on.

Model Christ, spend time with Dad, instruct in the ways of godliness, intervene when undesirable behavior continues.

P.S. As for me and my house? If I had a son he would have had a G.I. Joe in his craddle.


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## BobVigneault (Sep 26, 2006)

I enjoyed this article and found it thought provoking for anyone who would like to take the time to read it. The article is called Knighthood and Biblical Manhood and is a summary of a larger book of the same title.


http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/knights.html


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## BJClark (Sep 26, 2006)

BaptistInCrisis,




> P.S. As for me and my house? If I had a son he would have had a G.I. Joe in his craddle.



I bought those for my son, and he would run them over with his trucks and then pretend they were weight lifting them.

There is another one Max Steele or something like that, he was a spy, he used to play with those along side his sisters with their barbies and his Gi Joe and Max Steele were the ones who dated Barbie--none of them liked Ken. He would also take his 
G I Joe and beat Ken up (and I admit, I didn't stop him from doing that).

And yes, when my daughters were younger they played in the mud, climbed tree's (as did I when I was a kid) and collected bugs, they can even bait their own hook while fishing, though they don't like to and prefer a man do that for them.

My neighbor bought my son a football when he was an infant, and we put that in his crib.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by BJClark]


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2006)

at GIJoe beating up KennyBaby. I prefer to bait my own hook...my son hates it, but we make him bait his own as well.


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## py3ak (Sep 26, 2006)

Could we take Jesus as our example of masculinity?


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## Robin (Sep 26, 2006)

"Masculinity is about doing the right thing when it's not easy ..."

rsc



I think this is at the heart of the matter!

Robin


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## Herald (Sep 27, 2006)

After reading (some more than three times) all of the posts in this thread, I still come up with the same conclusion:



> Model Christ, spend time with Dad, instruct in the ways of godliness, intervene when undesirable behavior continues.



Trevor, I like the tone of your post. All things must be kept in balance. A boy raised in the "John Wayne" school of masculinity _alone_ will have serious behavorial and societal problems. A boy raised to be solely in touch with his feelings will also have problems. If the Dad in Matt's OP is doing the right things, then continue to do them. Watch...observe...but keep the course. If the behavoir does not change with maturity, then it may be time to seek counsel.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 28, 2006)

I've got to say, I think time with Dad is of paramount importance. I try to keep Joseph with me when I do carpentry projects and my wife keeps Esther and Hannah close to her while cooking. Izaak is still a loose cannon, but we're working on it.

It's good training for Dad too - work to train Jr. on a carpentry project, hit your thumb with the hammer, and try not to cuss or get angry about it because your reaction is what Jr. will emulate, not what you've told him is proper behaviour. Same goes for any other situation.


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