# Islam



## Agustin (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't know if anyone here has encountered Islamic apologists, wether witnessing or forums or chatrooms.

Is it me or do they seem to have no respect for Biblical culture, understanding and context? Is this only my experience?


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## Pergamum (Aug 8, 2008)

I have met many of these folks in person. They usually have NO idea what the Bible really says and have been fed stock lies from birth and are often surprised to learn that their misconceptions are not true. Every madrassah school kid is drilled as to why Christianity is wrong and they are often shocked to meet an American who isn't a boozing, womenizer and like the worst of hollywood culture.


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## Agustin (Aug 8, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I have met many of these folks in person. They usually have NO idea what the Bible really says and have been fed stock lies from birth and are often surprised to learn that their misconceptions are not true. Every madrassah school kid is drilled as to why Christianity is wrong and they are often shocked to meet an American who isn't a boozing, womenizer and like the worst of hollywood culture.



Thats another thing, they seem to not realize the difference b/w 'Christian' and 'American' as if we're some grouped of lapsed hypocrites because everyong in America is Christian.


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## Leslie (Aug 11, 2008)

i have sought out muslim apologists--it's my favorite pastime in airports and other obligatory waiting periods. i find a likely-looking character and ask him if he is muslim. To a affirmative reply, i ask him to tell me about islam. Then i listen thoughtfully and ask additional questions while he holds forth. Eventually it gets to the point where i'll confirm with him that islam has 5 requirements but christianity only has two--to love God and your neighbor and then ask him which does he think is the higher standard. i have yet to hear any even remotely rational arguments for the truth of islam.


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## Shane (Aug 12, 2008)

In South Africa we had a guy named Ahmed Deedat. 

To be honest I have yet to see a single Muslim apologist who can have an honest discusion without resorting to lies and underhanded debating techniques. There is quite a bit of matarial from this guy in SA even a debate with Jimmy Swaggart of all people 

His Scholarship is very poor and it seems they are always trying to prove the bible has been corrupted.
I have even heard this guy use evidence from not only liberal theologians but also from Jehovas Witnesses and Roman Catholics.
Like I say the scolarship is blatantly deceptive and to be quite blunt dishonest and pathetic.

Anyway thats my rant, but he is pretty much the only guy I have dome accross in SA and he is pretty much a hero to many Muslims in the world.


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## Pergamum (Aug 12, 2008)

I usually never try to engage the apologists because, if given limited time and energy, my energy could usually make a better impact on the normal poor Muslim trying to be good despite a plethora of rules. They are already hardened and will not listen to reason.



The best apologetic is love lived out towards neighbor. 

In a survey of the J__ people who became Christian about 70% reported that the MAIN influence in them becoming Christian was not reasoning or debating but the informal conversations and love shown by close friends or family.


This love is expressed often in personal prayer for and with the Muslim. I have had many people actually break down and weep when I have offered to pray directly to God for them (and not through the ritualized Sholat prayer). Thinking that this would be offensive, many do not offer this to their neighbors, but this simple and personal act of praying for neighbors and with them is very powerful and it shows the longing in the hearts of Muslims for a personal relationship with their god that the ritual and harsh justice of the Islamic system cannot offer.

A good way of finding "open" people has been called the "Camel Method" and uses the Qur'an as a jumping off point for discussions. Remember, however, that this message is a "bridge" to introduce someone to the New Testament about Jesus (and bridges are meant to be crossed and not lingered on).


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## Agustin (Aug 12, 2008)

> In South Africa we had a guy named Ahmed Deedat.



He's dead now.



> To be honest I have yet to see a single Muslim apologist who can have an honest discusion without resorting to lies and underhanded debating techniques. There is quite a bit of matarial from this guy in SA even a debate with Jimmy Swaggart of all people



Yes, Muslims love to talk about the debate with Jimmy Swaggart, but they don't like to talk about the debate Deedat had with Walter Martin (where he is slaughtered). I've heard many debates, I think a great demonstration of how deceptive techniques and inconsistency are used in debate is b/w Shabir Ally and James White @ Biola University. Its an excellent display of how a Muslim is inconsistent in his apologetic, and White sorta pulled the rug right from beneath him (presuppositionally in a sense). You should check it out. 


> His Scholarship is very poor and it seems they are always trying to prove the bible has been corrupted.



By the way, Deedat is still revered as some great apologist. They have no idea, what great means. 



> I have even heard this guy use evidence from not only liberal theologians but also from Jehovas Witnesses and Roman Catholics.
> Like I say the scolarship is blatantly deceptive and to be quite blunt dishonest and pathetic.



Yup.


> Anyway thats my rant, but he is pretty much the only guy I have dome accross in SA and he is pretty much a hero to many Muslims in the world.



There are plenty more.


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## Agustin (Aug 12, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I usually never try to engage the apologists because, if given limited time and energy, my energy could usually make a better impact on the normal poor Muslim trying to be good despite a plethora of rules. They are already hardened and will not listen to reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Muslims are very wary of what they call "Missionary Techniques" they assume that we 'trick' people into the kingdom. I think we should be careful, and simply present the Gospel. Its rough having to deal with people who have been coerced into praying some prayer to be saved or 'accepting Jesus into your heart' at some tent revival. Some have also said we bring our 'Western Values' into foreign countries and we don't respect the culture. Muslims also see Christian missions as 'Western' missions and an attempt to make Islamic-influenced culture into a 'Western' culture.


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## Shane (Aug 12, 2008)

Does anyone on the board know where I could find the debate with Walter Martin? I would love to see that.


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## Agustin (Aug 12, 2008)

Shane said:


> Does anyone on the board know where I could find the debate with Walter Martin? I would love to see that.



Hey, sorry about that. Not Walter Martin, Josh McDowell - here is a transcript:

Was Christ Crucified? - The Debate between Ahmed Deedat and Josh McDowell


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