# Oral Roberts Has Died



## Fly Caster (Dec 15, 2009)

Evangelist Oral Roberts dies in Calif. at age 91

I've known Godly people who loved him, but the harm that he brought to American Christianity was immense.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

He told Benny Hinn and others (who then spread the "prophecy") that God had told him that he was going to die when he was 90. So even his death points to him being a false prophet.


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## strangecharm (Dec 15, 2009)

This man is in God's hands now. Let us not judge him, but hopefully we can learn from the mistakes he has made, and set out to repair whatever damage has been done.


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## AThornquist (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I have a mixture of sadness for the family yet joy that this man is gone. He led so many people astray . . . I just don't know if it's appropriate to have joy in his death. I dare not say he was not a Christian. That's not my place. If he was indeed saved but very misguided, having joy about his death is even more troubling.

Blah. Yeah, I don't know how to respond.


But hey, Al Mohler will be discussing Roberts' death today on his radio program with historian/biographer David Edwin Harrell and charismania/WOF debunker Justin Peters. Sweet!


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## DMcFadden (Dec 15, 2009)

Andrew, you captured my sentiments! I will not judge his salvation but grieve over the myriads of errors foisted upon a credulous public. He and his ilk gave us all a bad name. The loss of a fellow human being is almost always a cause for sadness. But, wow is this a conflicted situation.


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## Scott1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I really do want to be as charitable as possible. There are many people who came to Christ through the deceased's imperfect theology and ministry, particularly in the time he did tent crusades and his early television broadcasts. 

He helped give people with disease hope, not really on a solid theological basis though, but God used it somewhat to bless people.

He did preach a basic Gospel, God used it, and in the end God gave him a long life and an admirable spirit of perseverance in face of what he perceived as persecution for the Christian faith.


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 15, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> I really do want to be as charitable as possible. There are many people who came to Christ through the deceased's imperfect theology and ministry, particularly in the time he did tent crusades and his early television broadcasts.
> 
> He helped give people with disease hope, not really on a solid theological basis though, but God used it somewhat to bless people.
> 
> He did preach a basic Gospel, God used it, and in the end God gave him a long life and an admirable spirit of perseverance in face of what he perceived as persecution for the Christian faith.



I have always been conflicted in a situation like this Scott. Can God use a false Gospel to draw His elect? Perhaps it could be another thread.


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## AThornquist (Dec 15, 2009)

Did Roberts preach a false gospel all of the time though? Perhaps a weak gospel. An anemic gospel. But the Lord is mighty to save. (I really don't know if he was big on health, wealth, and prosperity.)


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## earl40 (Dec 15, 2009)

I wonder what John MacArthur is thinking. Or better yet, did his second of the six part series come out yet?


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## Knoxienne (Dec 15, 2009)

He was a false prophet who deceived countless people. I can't say what God is doing with him at this moment. I only know what God's Word says about false prophets. And it's not pretty.


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## Scott1 (Dec 15, 2009)

The Oral Roberts Evangelist Association gave out many Bibles and much literature with a basic gospel. 

This doesn't excuse the false basis of his "seed faith" teachings and other teachings, but he really began as an evangelist. He was a Pastor in a couple denominations as well.


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## carlgobelman (Dec 15, 2009)

All I can say is, "God, have mercy on his soul." Aside from that, when false teachers pass on, the gospel wins.


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## strangecharm (Dec 15, 2009)

earl40 said:


> I wonder what John MacArthur is thinking. Or better yet, did his second of the six part series come out yet?



Part 2 is out


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## Berean (Dec 15, 2009)

strangecharm said:


> earl40 said:
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> > I wonder what John MacArthur is thinking. Or better yet, did his second of the six part series come out yet?
> ...



And posted on the PB. For what it's worth, Brian Williams on NBC Nightly News referred to Roberts as "a legendary American preacher".


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## Andres (Dec 15, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Did Roberts preach a false gospel all of the time though? Perhaps a weak gospel. An anemic gospel. But the Lord is mighty to save. (I really don't know if he was big on health, wealth, and prosperity.)



To say Roberts was _big _on the health and wealth false gospel would be a huge understatement! Roberts was one of the pioneers of the disgusting prosperity gospel. Here is an excerpt from a Time Magazine article from 1987: 



> So far, 1987 has been a checkered and chastening year for the Rev. Oral Roberts, 69. Last January the Tulsa-based TV evangelist announced that if he did not receive $8 million from donors by March 31, God would "call me home." The money was raised, but Roberts' dramatic ultimatum provoked widespread derision. He drew additional gibes by declaring that his wife Evelyn had come to his rescue when the devil visited his bedroom and tried to strangle him. Then, in May, Roberts mailed 1 million packets of "healing" water to followers, advising them to use it to "anoint your billfold" to solve money problems and "anoint your body" to allay physical ills.



You can read the entire article here - Religion: Raising Eyebrows and the Dead

Sorry but I refuse to pretend that this man was a faithful minister of God's Word. As many others have stated, I will not judge Roberts position before God, but I do think that we can judge his fruit. The article above is only a small portion of some of the disgusting charades Roberts committed in the name of our precious Lord. I refuse to bestow any accolades upon this man and outside of respect for being created in God's image, I have zero respect for him either.


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## Mushroom (Dec 15, 2009)

> "anoint your billfold"


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## Knoxienne (Dec 15, 2009)

Andres said:


> AThornquist said:
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> > Did Roberts preach a false gospel all of the time though? Perhaps a weak gospel. An anemic gospel. But the Lord is mighty to save. (I really don't know if he was big on health, wealth, and prosperity.)
> ...



Amen. It's pretty easy. I don't know what the controversy is.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

I don't think of it as a controversy. It is about having respect for the dead and being gracious. No one is saying he was a great preacher or that he was not a false prophet. Some are simply recognizing that God brought about the salvation of some through his ministry.


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## TKarrer (Dec 15, 2009)

God showed Himself mighty to save by taking what satan meant for evil (the preaching of Oral Roberts) and turning it for good (saving His elect).

The Word of God couldnt be clearer that a false teacher will be met with merciless Judgment. If we can conclude that Mr. Roberts taught heresy, than we can conclude he is suffering the torments of God's just wrath right now. This isn't lacking grace, this is stating fact.

I pray bold men of God will speak plainly about his condemnation, and that God would use it to bring something far more significant to his family than temporal comfort; namely, their salvation. I grieve for their loss; but not as someone who doesnt realize their end is the same as his if they do not see things as they are, and instead ultimately reject Christ.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> God showed Himself mighty to save by taking what satan meant for evil (the preaching of Oral Roberts) and turning it for good (saving His elect).
> 
> The Word of God couldnt be clearer that a false teacher will be met with merciless Judgment. If we can conclude that Mr. Roberts taught heresy, than we can conclude he is suffering the torments of God's just wrath right now. This isn't lacking grace, this is stating fact.
> 
> I pray bold men of God will speak plainly about his condemnation, and that God would use it to bring something far more significant to his family than temporal comfort; namely, their salvation. I grieve for their loss; but not as someone who doesnt realize their end is the same as his if they do not see things as they are, and instead ultimately reject Christ.



I think you are stretching to say that the prosperity gospel automatically condemns people to Hell. I am not saying it is a good theology by any means, but I know of people who are wrapped up in this garbage, but I would not doubt their salvation for a second.


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## Berean (Dec 15, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> He told Benny Hinn and others (who then spread the "prophecy") that God had told him that he was going to die when he was 90. So even his death points to him being a false prophet.



Does anyone remember when the funding for his medical school was falling short? He announced that God had told him that he would die if the money wasn't raised. He actually appealed to donors to "extend my life" by donating to the building fund.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

Berean said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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> > He told Benny Hinn and others (who then spread the "prophecy") that God had told him that he was going to die when he was 90. So even his death points to him being a false prophet.
> ...



I do know of the story. My mom was working at the hospital at the time. She was also in the audience when the donor gave the amount needed.


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## TKarrer (Dec 15, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> TKarrer said:
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> > God showed Himself mighty to save by taking what satan meant for evil (the preaching of Oral Roberts) and turning it for good (saving His elect).
> ...



I agree with you; but I believe that those who propagate it as (self-proclaimed) "prophets" and teachers fall under a different category. It is false prophets who will be condemned; not necessarily the sheep they deceived.


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 15, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> TKarrer said:
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> > God showed Himself mighty to save by taking what satan meant for evil (the preaching of Oral Roberts) and turning it for good (saving His elect).
> ...



When Christ said the Holy Spirit would lead His chosen to the truth, do you think he meant what OR taught? I am having a hard time with the thought of being gracious to a false prophet when scripture warns us repeatedly to avoid them. I cannot find one example of a chosen of God giving the right hand of fellowship to a teacher of Baal.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

Amazing Grace said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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Yes, but OR was not a teacher of Baal. He still pointed people to Christ. He may have been completely wrong about alot of things, but in the end he was still pointing to Christ. He was not pointing to Baal or any other "god".


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## Scott1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Thankfully, we can believe many wrong things and still end up in Heaven.

That does not take away from the fact that misrepresenting God's Word, through ignorance or wrong motive is sin. It is especially egregious for those who presume to teach and lead God's people.

And there are consequences for sin- here and in the hereafter. 

But let's not lose sight of the fact that God saves us by His grace alone, by giving us saving faith in Christ's righteousness alone. 

Yes, there must be some evidence of that, reasonably over time, and the church is charged to protect that witness... but we can believe many wrong things, suffer for it, and still, most undeservedly make it into His Kingdom.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Thankfully, we can believe many wrong things and still end up in Heaven.
> 
> That does not take away from the fact that misrepresenting God's Word, through ignorance or wrong motive is sin. It is especially egregious for those who presume to teach and lead God's people.
> 
> ...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 15, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Amazing Grace said:
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Just because a man yells "Jesus" in a crowded theater does not mean he is pointing people to Christ. See 2 Peter 2.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 15, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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But it doesn't mean the guy is a heretic and going to Hell.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 15, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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You don't think Oral Roberts taught and promoted heresy?


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## Theognome (Dec 15, 2009)

I recall the cartoonist Berkley Breathed in his comic strip, "Bloom County" doing some incredibly funny parodies of OR's lunacy. Thus I can say that, in a round-a-bout way, he made me laugh. That's a positive, no?

Theognome


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## regener8ed (Dec 15, 2009)

Oral Roberts was a false prophet, and if he died without repentance and trust in the true Lord and Savior, he is in hell. That said, none of us know what happened on his death bed. God very well may have convicted him of his sin and brought him to faith; or He may not have. Either way, what he taught from his pulpit was damnable heresy. We are all guilty of the crime of damnable heresy at some point in our lives. We should all thank God that He is gracious and saves damnable heretics.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 16, 2009)

Wow. I thought he had died a long time ago.


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## bookslover (Dec 16, 2009)

I guess he's met up with his 900-foot-tall Jesus by now. Sheesh...


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## charliejunfan (Dec 16, 2009)

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........I mean......oh..... ....

-----Added 12/16/2009 at 12:54:04 EST-----



regener8ed said:


> Oral Roberts was a false prophet, and if he died without repentance and trust in the true Lord and Savior, he is in hell. That said, none of us know what happened on his death bed. God very well may have convicted him of his sin and brought him to faith; or He may not have. Either way, what he taught from his pulpit was damnable heresy. We are all guilty of the crime of damnable heresy at some point in our lives. We should all thank God that He is gracious and saves damnable heretics.



Amen!!! I'm a heretic in practice for sure!!


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## Grillsy (Dec 16, 2009)

And now comes the media white wash...oh wait he wasn't a Kennedy.


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## BJClark (Dec 16, 2009)

The first thought that went through my mind when I read the title was "God, I pray he repented of His false teachings before He died."

I remember him making the claim that if he didn't raise those millions he was going to die..it was one of the excuses my mom and many of her friends used for not going to church for years.."all preachers were like him--begging for money from the poor and then living the high life for themselves." 

I was able to point my mother to verses that spoke of false teachers and false prophets and explain they would always be around and even though they are around, we still have the truth of God's word and we know what we should do--God wants us to be obedient to what He tells us...not blame someone else for our not doing it..she eventually started going back and many of her friends heard the Gospel preached upon her death..


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## Parsifal23 (Dec 16, 2009)

I just think that Oral Roberts was a very sincere if theologically theologically confused man I just hope he's in a better place.

-----Added 12/16/2009 at 08:41:02 EST-----



Chaplainintraining said:


> I don't think of it as a controversy. It is about having respect for the dead and being gracious. No one is saying he was a great preacher or that he was not a false prophet. Some are simply recognizing that God brought about the salvation of some through his ministry.



Yeah that's basically how I feel and as far as the question of his Salvation I think that's better left to God


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 16, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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My comment was directed more towards the imaginary guy yelling "Jesus." 

That being said, I do not know everything about Oral Roberts so I may be missing something. From what I have seen, I do not think he promoted heresy. Teaching that Jesus is a miracle worker is not heresy, I just think OR was wrong about how this all worked out. Teaching the prosperity Gospel is not heresy, it is a "bill of goods and pile of ****" to quote Piper. 

At the end of his tent revivals, he would give an altar call that is just like 90% of the churches in the world today. In fact, I would venture to say that the altar calls are not that much different from Billy Graham's and I don't think we would call him a heretic. If he was constantly pointing people to the saving work of Christ, then I can't consider him a heretic. I do not throw that word around lightly. 

OR's theology consisted of the basic tenets of Christianity mixed with error (as someone pointed out in the other thread). The same could be said about everyone. Even MacArthur admits that he is wrong about somethings (and if he knew what it was he would change it). Think about it, either paedo or cred baptism is right. Both can't be. Either amil, postmil, premil, or Dispensational premil is right, all can't be. At what point do we say that someone has too much error and becomes a heretic? 30%? 40%? 50%?

I don't think a percentage can be given. I think it comes down to certain beliefs. OR believed in salvation through Christ alone, and I have not seen anything where OR takes away anything from the nature of God. He believes in a sovereign all powerful personal God who loves his children. Out of this love he sees God working miracles and blessing people. 

Was OR wrong about things? yes. Did he prophecy stuff that did not come true? yes. 

does this make him a heretic? I will let God determine the condition of his soul. I recommend you do the same.


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## Andres (Dec 16, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> That being said, I do not know everything about Oral Roberts so I may be missing something. From what I have seen, I do not think he promoted heresy. Teaching that Jesus is a miracle worker is not heresy, I just think OR was wrong about how this all worked out. Teaching the prosperity Gospel is not heresy, it is a "bill of goods and pile of ****" to quote Piper.
> 
> At the end of his tent revivals, he would give an altar call that is just like 90% of the churches in the world today. In fact, I would venture to say that the altar calls are not that much different from Billy Graham's and I don't think we would call him a heretic. If he was constantly pointing people to the saving work of Christ, then I can't consider him a heretic. I do not throw that word around lightly.
> 
> ...



To compare Dr. John MacArthur to Oral Roberts is beyond apples to oranges. That's more like apples to motorcycles in my book.


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## earl40 (Dec 16, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Berean said:
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Did your mom have the paddles ready and charged?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 16, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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With all do respect Oral Roberts taught practically nothing but heresy. Due to the impreciseness of his theology he often taught a modalistic view of the Trinity (heresy). He did not teach the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ's substitutionary death on the cross and he was not a confused Arminian but a full-blown Pelagian (heresy). There is more there but I do not feel the need to go on.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 16, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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As I said, I am not a OR scholar, so I would have to take you at your word on the above.

Also I was not comparing MacArthur to Roberts. I was merely pointing out that even those who respect admit to having "wrong" in their theology. So the simple fact of having wrong in their theology does not make them a heretic. It has to go beyond that.

No my mom did not have a defib, she was enamored by the man (and is still to this day to an extent) and just knew that God would provide.


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## Mushroom (Dec 16, 2009)

If speaking ill of the dead is wrong, then Peter and Jude were guilty of the same when they spoke of Cain, Balaam, and Korah. We should then never speak ill of Finney, Pelagius, or Arius.

OR would fit right in with those fellows, having taught much the same as they.

It may garner me demerit in the eyes of some, but I have no reluctance to state plainly that OR was a flaming heretic, and if his death will result in fewer of the elect having to spend time, or a shorter time, under the misery of the teachings he promulgated, I for one am relieved at his demise.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 16, 2009)

Brad said:


> If speaking ill of the dead is wrong, then Peter and Jude were guilty of the same when they spoke of Cain, Balaam, and Korah. We should then never speak ill of Finney, Pelagius, or Arius.
> 
> OR would fit right in with those fellows, having taught much the same as they.
> 
> It may garner me demerit in the eyes of some, but I have no reluctance to state plainly that OR was a flaming heretic, and if his death will result in fewer of the elect having to spend time, or a shorter time, under the misery of the teachings he promulgated, I for one am relieved at his demise.



There is a difference between pointing out the faults of those who have passed, and throwing a party that someone is burning in Hell. This is all I meant about having respect.


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 16, 2009)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Brad said:
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> > If speaking ill of the dead is wrong, then Peter and Jude were guilty of the same when they spoke of Cain, Balaam, and Korah. We should then never speak ill of Finney, Pelagius, or Arius.
> ...



I agree with this to a point. But do not forget. the elect of God will sing praises as the damned smoke rises up forever and ever in the eschalon.


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## Dragoon (Dec 16, 2009)

Albert Mohler has just posted his thoughts on Oral Roberts and his passing on his blog.
AlbertMohler.com


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## DMcFadden (Dec 16, 2009)

Dragoon said:


> Albert Mohler has just posted his thoughts on Oral Roberts and his passing on his blog.
> AlbertMohler.com



 A balanced and historically informed assessment that does not whitewash his faults (other than some of the rankest heresies identified in this thread), and places him within the context of American 20th Century Christianity -- for good AND ill.


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## DMcFadden (Dec 16, 2009)

Andres said:


> To compare Dr. John MacArthur to Oral Roberts is beyond apples to oranges. That's more like apples to motorcycles in my book.



Or maybe more like apples to oranges in a state of decrepitude and toxic mold.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 17, 2009)

Amazing Grace said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
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Yes but to do this now with OR would mean you know the condition of his soul. I don't think any here knows without a doubt whether he was elect or not.


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## au5t1n (Dec 17, 2009)

I think it's plain he was a false prophet. Let us remember that we do not know how long we have on this earth - We must repent. I will not glory in his death, but I have to be honest and say it's pretty clear he was a false prophet, not a sheep.


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## Dao (Dec 17, 2009)

You'll recall, this was the fakir who claimed to have a
vision of a 900-foot-tall Jesus. It had also been Jesus
who commissioned him to find a cancer cure.

In 1987, God told Roberts he'd kill him [Roberts] unless
people donated 8-million dollars ! ( The Lord allowed
Roberts to live because people sent in 9.1-million. )


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## SolaSaint (Dec 17, 2009)

strangecharm said:


> earl40 said:
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> > I wonder what John MacArthur is thinking. Or better yet, did his second of the six part series come out yet?
> ...



What six part series are you all speaking of?


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## earl40 (Dec 20, 2009)

SolaSaint said:


> strangecharm said:
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A Colossal Fraud

Where I got "6" I thought I read it somewhere. Probably my mistake.


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## Berean (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not sure how many "parts" there will be to the series. I've never seen a number. The Oral Roberts "special" may have been added because it was timely.


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