# Former Baptists: In becoming 'presbyterian' what were the greatest challenges?



## Need 4 Creed (May 5, 2013)

This is a question for those who have transitioned from being baptist to being presbyterian. 

*What were the gratest challenges, struggles and difficulities that you encountered and how did you resolve them? *

This question was inspired as I read the final chapter in Sean Lucas's _On Being Presbyterian, our beliefs, practices and stories. _ which spoke about the identity struggles that are involved in this process.


----------



## au5t1n (May 5, 2013)

The biggest struggle has been discovering just how deep and pervasive Baptistic thought was in my way of thinking in so many different areas aside from baptism -- my understanding of the church, church officers, the visible/invisible church distinction, historical continuity, etc. What helped the most in that area was reading Samuel Rutherford's _A Peaceable and Temperate Plea for Paul's Presbytery in Scotland_. It was written to address the errors of the Separatists, who actually baptized babies (but I think they were inconsistent with their doctrine of the church for doing so). However, Rutherford's treament of their way of thinking -- especially their doctrine of the visible church -- accurately addresses Baptist and modern evangelical theology (including to the extent that it has thoroughly infected modern Presbyterianism) very, very well.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (May 5, 2013)

Mine was understanding the differences concerning the various covenants. There are various understandings even in the Reformed camp. And I had a lot of problems understanding the administration of the Covenant of Grace and how it worked out in light of the various Covenants. When I finally came to understand what solid Westminsterian theologians were saying about the Administration of the Covenant of Grace from Genesis 3 forward, a big ole Light started to shine and God's progressive revelation just became so clear and uniform to me. 

Ecclesiology was a small part but it really didn't play that big of part in my understanding since I had always been in a Church that had a Plurality of Eldership. Presbyterianism just seemed logical to me for the most part as a development and as a great place for better accountability if doctrine and ecclesiology were not taken lightly.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Pergamum (May 5, 2013)

> Samuel Rutherford's _A Peaceable and Temperate Plea for Paul's Presbytery in Scotland_



Does anyone have a link where this resource can be found?


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (May 5, 2013)

A peaceable and temperate plea for Pavls Presbyterie in Scotland : or, a modest and brotherly dispute of the government of the Church of Scotland, wherein, our discipline is demonstrated to be the true Apostolick way of divine truth, and the argument

A peaceable and temperate plea for Pavls Presbyterie in Scotland (Open Library)


----------



## Mushroom (May 5, 2013)

I was never really a 'Baptist' per se, but I did hold to believer's baptism. But when, after 10 years of professing Christ, I 'stumbled' upon the doctrines of God's absolute sovereignty (initially through the means of a dear Reformed Baptist pastor), I began to pray and study my way through that concept. A difficult part for me was to accept that God was sovereign over all children, to whom they were born, what they would experience, and what they would be taught. That seemed so unamerican and unfair to my egalitarian mind. But if there was no benefit to being born to believers, then much of scripture was moot and pointless. I could not fathom that anything breathed by our God was moot and pointless, so I prayed and studied more, and to my great surprise, found that some old Presbyterians had been granted the grace to see a scripturally consistent view of this covenantal love. This was greatly distressing, because I had long before determined that Presbyterians were certainly apostate, especially since my own Father had become one some years into my adulthood, and was definitely not a Christian in both profession and behavior, and had obtained the mantle of Ruling Elder in that denomination (the PCUSA). Further study revealed that there was still extant a small but vibrant set of faithful Presbyterian denoms that had not _yet_ sold their birthright for the world's pottage, and I found myself joining my family to a PCA Church. So the most difficult thing for me was to accept that arrogant flatlanders like Presbyterians ever had anything right. The next was to surrender the last vestiges of my self-deterministic decisional regeneration mindset, of which credo-baptism was the pivot. That dear RB Pastor was aghast. I love him, but he is simply wrong in this important matter. The promises of my God do not fail - every man IS a liar, but He is true.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Eoghan (May 6, 2013)

What of those who started Presbyterian and became Baptist?


----------



## Romans922 (May 6, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> What of those who started Presbyterian and became Baptist?




I'd suggest starting a new thread....


----------



## au5t1n (May 6, 2013)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> A peaceable and temperate plea for Pavls Presbyterie in Scotland : or, a modest and brotherly dispute of the government of the Church of Scotland, wherein, our discipline is demonstrated to be the true Apostolick way of divine truth, and the argument
> 
> A peaceable and temperate plea for Pavls Presbyterie in Scotland (Open Library)



I wish I had been able to find it free online like this at the time. I paid 99 cents for a facsimile from SWRB. The 99 cents didn't hurt me, but I'd rather have avoided purchasing from SWRB if possible.

The work is excellent primarily for showing the visible nature of the Church on earth (contra "regenerate church membership," so called), and also that the Presbytery, not the Congregation, is the root court of the Church and that local churches emerge out of the Presbytery rather than the other way around. This was revolutionary in my thinking, and very thoroughly proven from Scripture. It also has an excellent section on church unity and the proper and improper grounds of separation from a Church. Rutherford points out that not once in Paul's letters to the divided and chaotic Corinthian church did he tell the more mature or more knowledgeable believers to leave and start a separate church. There is a lot of good stuff in this work, but I'll warn that it can be difficult to read, especially in the beginning, and will require some going back over and rereading paragraphs a second or third time -- at least, it did for me.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (May 6, 2013)

For me it really had to do with understanding the continuity of the covenant of grace as it moved in administration from old to new. There is, of course, discontinuity as well and that, too, played a part.

I had looked at a number of things on the question of subjects and modes of baptism. I was a student at Westminster Seminary and also had the privilege of renting a room from (and thus living with) Sinclair Ferguson. We were discussing baptism, at my request, and having gone through a number of things, came to Peter's sermon at Pentecost. There Dr. Ferguson showed how this covenant continued in the new: "the promise remained to you and your children." Thus there was no loss of any blessing in the new that was enjoyed under the old. The promise was not "to you and your children" in the old but radically individuatd in the new. The promise, as a signal part of covenant, continued to be to us and our children. There is no loss here, only gain: the addition is "and to all those who are afar, as many as the Lord our God shall call." 

There is much more that I could say here and there were other passages that we looked at (especially Col. 2:11-12), but the point was made: the covenant was going, say, 40 miles an hour in its old dispensation, and now, in the new, with the ingathering of the nations and application by the Spirit of Christ of all the merits and mediation of Christ in fulfillment, it was going a hundred miles an hour. No loss. Only gain. To have our children as a part of this in the old and not in the new would involve loss and not gain. And Peter makes it clear that such is not the case because the old promise is still there to us and our children, but now that promise goes global as the gospel goes out to the nations of the earth and not only ethnic Israel. 

This is just a bit of my "conversion" at Westminster Theological Seminary from Reformed Baptist to Presbyterian.

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Christopher88 (May 6, 2013)

I have been a member of a Presbyterian Church for three years I believe, or just now going on three. I considered my self a Presbyterian all three years, however my transition to being Presbyterian has really been the past year even more so of late.

The initial hard transition was was *credo to padeo baptism.* This took many self debates, discussions with my Pastor, sermons to listen too, and so forth. Having to look at all of scripture and the deeper meaning of baptism other then being "saved", I knew the Padeo argument was correct. 

The second transition was as of recent; *Church Polity*. This was a hard transition because of selfish reasons of wanting to be in control of how I Chris do things for and in the church. I was willing to talk my self into a congregational polity for the sake of self righteousness. Knowing full well that I was in error I began to study the confession on polity, read the BCO, listened to lectures, and I do not recall if I prayed on this issue, which means I more then likely did not. Though the good Lord in His grace transitioned me to see Presbyterian Polity as proper church polity. I was understanding of this polity by the reading of Acts and the Epistles; and have leaned off my congregational self righteousness ideology. 

For me those were the only two which was hindering me from being fully Presbyterian and I even say reformed. 

The other points a baptist may find troubling is; submission to church government, liturgy, corporate confession and affirmation, and even the practice of the sacraments are different but in a wonderful way.


----------



## GulfCoast Presbyterian (May 6, 2013)

Difficulties?

The first was when my former SBC church wrote a snarky letter to my Presbyterian church. My Presbyterian church wrote first requesting my "letter." The SBC church responded that they did not send membership letters "outside the faith." Oh wow. 

The primary issue that I had was "de-dispying" myself regarding eschatology. Those weeds have deep roots if you grew up in that system of interpretation. (I realize that not all credo-baptist-only churches are Dispensational).

Reactions: Like 1


----------

