# Why Men Hate Going to Church



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Dec 12, 2006)

Who has read this book? It looks interesting from what I have read of it. I saw a DVD study today going along with it. I would be interested if anyone here had experience with it and had comments to add?


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## rmwilliamsjr (Dec 12, 2006)

I found it interesting, theologically shallow, but full of rather humorous but serious observations. I'm not sure how useful the suggestions for change are, but the problems he points out are certainly issues to think about. A breezy book, full of facts and assertions that would be nearly impossible to confirm or really point to reasons for these things happening, but the kind of book that you're tempted to put down for a moment and tell everyone around you what a tidbit you just read.

would make an interesting adult sunday school class text, especially if it was linked ot something more substantial in the prescription dept.


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## BJClark (Dec 12, 2006)

rmwilliamsjr;



> I found it interesting, theologically shallow, but full of rather humorous but serious observations. I'm not sure how useful the suggestions for change are, but the problems he points out are certainly issues to think about. A breezy book, full of facts and assertions that would be nearly impossible to confirm or really point to reasons for these things happening, but the kind of book that you're tempted to put down for a moment and tell everyone around you what a tidbit you just read.
> 
> would make an interesting adult sunday school class text, especially if it was linked ot something more substantial in the prescription dept.



Looking at the title it would appear to be theologically shallow (in my best Sgt. Friday voice "Just the facts ma'am, Just the facts."...other than the very basic of answers to the question...they do not know Christ.

If they are Christians, and don't go...it could be a few reasons...

1. They work on Sundays and are afraid to ask their employer for time off TO Go, because they live in fear of losing their job or not getting the 'next' promotion. Which could be looked at theologically as they love money more than God, and live in fear of what man can do to them as opposed to what God can do.

2. Someone in their family is sick.

3. They are on vacation.

4. They haven't been to a church in the area that is biblically sound, so they stay home and do something else, because they feel discouraged.


Maybe we can look at many of the excuses they give in the book as to why men don't go...looking at the underlying issues...and learn to address the area from a theological point when talking to men who give these excuses.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Dec 12, 2006)

The major point of the book is that the culture of the modern church is openly feminine and that Real Men sense this and don't go being put off by the female characteristics that they are expected to display in church. The problem is that this thesis is substantially correct in several significant ways, making it harder to separate the wheat from the chaff in both his analysis and prescriptions.


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 12, 2006)

I have not read it but the mens group at my former church in Jersey discussed the major points.

The major emphasis is on "the church is my boyfriend" concept that is so common in broad evangelicalism. So many love songs and flowers and hugs, the men become disenchanted. The church reads about King David lopping the head off of Goliath and Elijah heckling the pagans, and they laugh saying, "oh those silly ancient types." Meanwhile the men are holding in their masculinity and clinging to NFL because it appears to be the closest they will ever come to battle.

It is a demographic study more than anything else. Overall, the point may be valid, but it is pretty shallow theologically - but nothing true biblical theology, preaching, and ecclesiology won't take care of.


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## BJClark (Dec 12, 2006)

rmwilliamsjr;



> The major point of the book is that the culture of the modern church is openly feminine and that Real Men sense this and don't go being put off by the female characteristics that they are expected to display in church. The problem is that this thesis is substantially correct in several significant ways, making it harder to separate the wheat from the chaff in both his analysis and prescriptions.



"REAL MEN"?? 

Female Characterisics? Such as what?


I'm serious, here, what characteristics are strickly female?


Expected to display? or assume they are expected display?

In reading this article on this persons thoughts concerning the book...

http://www.christinyall.com/articles/men.html



> He pins the blame for the exit of men on Bernard of Clairvaux, reasoning that Bernard redefined spirituality in feminine terms by applying the biblical bridal imagery of the church to Christians as individuals.



So men don't like to be refered to as the "BRIDE Of Christ"? But isn't that How the Bible defines the Church as a whole? As THE Bride of Christ? So what is there problem with that??

If we look at the role of a Bride, even in most modern societies...the Bride is to be submissive to the Husbands leadership...Shouldn't a Christian Man be JUST as Submitted to Christ? 

So they feel regulated to non-leadership positions...Again, isn't that about having a SERVANT'S Attitude??

I don't even want to hear about men complaining they aren't in as many teaching positions..because MOST MEN REFUSE TO Volunteer to do it...



> So what is a man to do who burns with a desire to contribute something to the life of the church? He can become a minister. That is his only choice.



isn't that what Being a Christian is about?? BEING A MINISTER?? No matter what the calling?

Most men feel it's a "woman's role" to teach the kids...so they don't volunteer to help TEACH and TRAIN THE KIDS in the nursery and youth departments!! But if God calls FATHERS to lead their families...isn't that just as MUCH the husbands role to minister to the kids of the church? Training them in the ways of God?

Maybe if men decided they could go in and help teach a childrens sunday school class, and not just an adult class... looking at it in terms of "training up the next generation" instead of "female work" changing diapers, and helping the kids learn and grow in Christ...being that example of a teacher and leader..things would change.

I think based on reading this persons description of the book...the real PROBLEM is that men don't like being submissive to Christ...as the THEIR HEAD!! Anymore than many women don't like being submissive to their own husbands as their head.

And until men 'get' what it means for them to personally be submissive TO Christ..they will continue to stay away from Church.

it sounds like they struggle with Christ's Authority and Role with the CHURCH/BRIDE itself...

In that they all want to be IN CHARGE when none of them, not even the pastor is TRULY in charge..Christ IS!! 

So even pastors are servants, not the leader..they are just the lead servant of each particular body.


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## BJClark (Dec 12, 2006)

ChristopherPaul;



> The major emphasis is on "the church is my boyfriend" concept that is so common in broad evangelicalism. So many love songs and flowers and hugs, the men become disenchanted. The church reads about King David lopping the head off of Goliath and Elijah heckling the pagans, and they laugh saying, "oh those silly ancient types." Meanwhile the men are holding in their masculinity and clinging to NFL because it appears to be the closest they will ever come to battle.



The problem with that is that even in the Battle between David and Goliath, God LED The battle, not David.

And the battle is for the souls of men, and for a LOST AND Dying World...the battle isn't within the building where the Saints Gather, the true battle is at their every day jobs...and in thier neighborhoods...the gathering of Saints is just a place to go and be built up and prepared for the battles they face everyday out in the world.

So maybe it's they have a mixed up view of what the battle really is...and what it entails?

Edit to add:

Many men lop off heads of people every day...they lop of the heads of people they work with, of thier wives and children...of their neighbors...just by their attitudes..and words...
but they don't see it that way..


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 12, 2006)

BJClark said:


> ChristopherPaul;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No argument here. I was just explaining the jist of the book.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Dec 13, 2006)

A lot of bad reviews I have read have missed the point. The book is not all for the macho mail stereo-type. It is not how it classes men. The book points out men and women learn different ways and are very different people. It does not really talk about roles of people but points out things like men are more rational focused while women are more emotional in their decisions etc...

I suppose the way you see this book also depends a lot on your church environment.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 13, 2006)

You beat me to it Josh. That's reason #1 why men don't go to church: Because they are unregenerate, cold and hardened toward the things of God. 

The fact that most churches are dominated by females (here I am broadly considering all so called "churches", this includes most pentecostal/charismatics, broad evangelicals, liberals, RC's) plays into it. But that's more a symptom than root cause. And that's not a hit on females, just a acknowledgement that the prevailing ethos in the majority of churches is perceived as feminine (this includes not a few of the men who are active, especially clergy), and has been increasingly been the case since at least the mid 19th century. OTOH, churches that are more focused on the Word and doctrinal teaching tend to have a better balance in attendence. I have noticed this personally and have also seen data that agrees with this. 

No time now to unpack this further, but another book on feminized Christianity is Leon Podles' _The Church Impotent_ which points out the problem but falters when prescribing a cure (If I recall correctly focusing too much on "masculinity" and how to inculcate it and not enough on the Bible). Judging from his approach I think that Podles is probably RC but it is a somewhat useful book nonetheless.


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## BJClark (Dec 13, 2006)

Maybe we should go back to singing songs like these...

http://www.lovetolearnplace.com/SpecialDays/NewYears/NewYearSongs.html

On the website, their is also a link to some various worksheets that go along with the songs, which could make for a decent study.


Onward Christian Soldiers

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

What the saints established that I hold for true.
What the saints believèd, that I believe too.
Long as earth endureth, men the faith will hold,
Kingdoms, nations, empires, in destruction rolled.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,
But the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;
We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices in the triumph song.
Glory, laud and honor unto Christ the King,
This through countless ages men and angels sing.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.


Go Forward, Christian Soldier

Go forward, Christian soldier,
Beneath His banner true:
The Lord Himself, thy Leader,
Shall all thy foes subdue.
His love foretells thy trials;
He knows thine hourly need;
He can with bread of heaven
Thy fainting spirit feed.

Go forward, Christian soldier,
Fear not the secret foe;
Far more o’er thee are watching
Than human eyes can know:
Trust only Christ, thy Captain;
Cease not to watch and pray;
Heed not the treacherous voices
That lure thy soul astray.

Go forward, Christian soldier,
Nor dream of peaceful rest,
Till Satan’s host is vanquished
And heav’n is all possessed;
Till Christ Himself shall call thee
To lay thine armor by,
And wear in endless glory
The crown of victory.

Go forward, Christian soldier,
Fear not the gath’ring night:
The Lord has been thy Shelter;
The Lord will be thy Light.
When morn His face revealeth,
Thy dangers are all past:
O pray that faith and virtue
May keep thee to the last!


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## rmwilliamsjr (Dec 13, 2006)

*Female Characterisics? Such as what?
*

he lists any number of characteristics where the masculine end of the spectrum is underused in the church and the feminine side overemphasised.

sitting vs physical activity,
verbal vs physical,
emotional vs intellectual, 
expressing feelings rather than visions of the future battles,

*
I think based on reading this persons description of the book...the real PROBLEM is that men don't like being submissive to Christ...as the THEIR HEAD!! Anymore than many women don't like being submissive to their own husbands as their head.

And until men 'get' what it means for them to personally be submissive TO Christ..they will continue to stay away from Church.*

if there is a particular value in the book, or in books like this, it is in the challenge to stereotypes and to real subtle imaging. for instance. there are a number of ways to imagine and envision the idea of submission. 

->fighting wolves and demonstrating submission by exposing their neck
->soldiers reluctant submission in a POW camp, think "the Great Escape"
->the submission of someone to a intellectual/physical/etc superior in the free giving of allegience because of ability. i'm thinking of the movie Amadeus and the way the court musicican worked with Mozart in his last days as a scribe.
->female sexual submission

one of the phrases the book uses often is that "men follow true leaders"
the idea is that masculine submission is active, like in the movie Amadeus, the court musician is overwhelming by Mozart's ability and gifts, realizes that his is simply inferior, but not useless, but useful in the service of the greater genius.

submission is not a simple concept. it is a rather complex, very societal and culturally dependent set of images and ideas. You can drive the complex towards anyone of the lists images (and i'm sure there is more as well) by the way you talk about and visualize the activities involved. This is one point of the book. Submission in church's as well as theology is often in images of marriage, of sexual surrender, often in term's of overwhelming force. 

Now image church's that talked about and did things more like a football team or a military (both masculine institutions that he uses frequently in the book). Submission for the greater good, for the sake of the team, to contribute your little strength to the larger mass, sacrifice as activity. Think of George Patton, in "Patton" telling soldiers not to die for their country but to help the enemy die for his. This sports pep rally, military rally (think those amazing images of Hitler's parades), even some corporate rallies where everyone cheers and yells in unison.

look at the difference. the military is as much or even more about submission than is the church. but the set of images and the ideas are substantially different. the church's images are often sexual, often veiled references to marriage etc. This is an interesting and potentially thoughtful analysis (not that the book is much more than shallow analysis) about how religion is presented, not about what is presented, but about the way, the methods, the major images, the whole complex.

Picture the difference between an Eastern Orthodox service with a Puritan one. What are the driving ideas, what is each trying to say about both the individual's relationship with God and with the church's, and likewise about those there and their relationship happening in the service.

This is part of what the book talks about. If you look at modern American Christianity what do the structures, what does the way we do things, what images are provoked and taught. What kind of people are attracted to it, what kind of people does it shape. His connention is that it shapes feminized men, and attracts women, that it is on the other end of the spectrum from sports teams and the military. His prescription is that the church should take lessons from successful masculine enterprises whether these or business and move the thermostat from pointing at comfort for women to more activity and movement for men.

like i said above, the problem with the book is that there is a big piece of truthfulness in it, but it is fragmented and mixed with a lot of trite shallow recommendations. but it is a start to what is a necessary discussion. he has a lot of interesting statistics about the numbers, something is going on in the modern church. is his analysis right, does the church turn off men and turn them away from activity in the church?


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## BJClark (Dec 13, 2006)

rmwilliamsjr;


Maybe that's why I struggle in my understanding of why it's infilterated so many church bodies.. I've lived in Military towns most all my life, and within six months of coming to Christ, I joined the Military, and could see the correlations so vividly..as preached from most all the pulpits of the churches I've been to.

I can even remember a sign hanging just above all the exits at one church...
"You are now entering the Battle Field"

Maybe many people live with the opposite understanding....that the battle field is within the "building" that the church gathers.


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## BJClark (Dec 13, 2006)

rmwilliamsjr;



> he lists any number of characteristics where the masculine end of the spectrum is underused in the church and the feminine side overemphasised.
> 
> sitting vs physical activity,
> verbal vs physical,
> ...



I guess I don't understand this view, if it's MOSTLY women volunteering within the church...how are these feminine characterisics, IF MEN SHOULD be doing the volunteering?

If women are getting that it's physical, what is being lost in translation?

I know our church uses various sports terms to help teach, "Run the race" using the Olympics as it's theme is one example, and how we need to train spiritually just as we do physically...yet, there are still very few men who volunteer to help teach.

They have also used a going into battle theme where all the teachers were to wear a military uniform--again, mostly women taught. 

Maybe if they used a cross-bow or swords and had to dress in the battle garb of Roman Soldiers...it would peek their interest of even wanting to help teach children??

Hmmm..I guess maybe where it's being lost in translation, is truly the visual aspect of it. Men need to 'see' in order to visualize it..whereas most women don't need the graphic details shown to them in order to picture it in their head.

I can remember reading Piercing the Darkness and This Present Darkness and being able to picture the spiritual battles being described and make the correlation between whats going on in the physical realm as to whats going on in the spirtual realm at the same time...and I can take that image with me when I'm sharing the Gospel with someone..

God's Word being the Sword of the Spirit, and when brought forth in a battle when sharing the gospel with a lost person, it either pierces their heart or it hits the leg or slices them in the gut, or cuts their arm or some other body part. 

The Sheild of Faith, when used in battle is like when they toss out some personal jarb at you--we hold the sheild up which helps so as not to the attack personally, even when it was meant to be taken that way. because we realize, it's not us personally they are fighting against, but God Himself.

Again, I can picture those things in my head, and understand it's an unseen battle being fought in the physical, even though not physically fought with me taking up a literal sword and hitting someone with it.


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## Philip A (Dec 13, 2006)

There's a good discussion of the issue of the feminization of the church from Mike Horton and Kim Riddlebarger, HERE.

The issue is not feminity in the church, it it effeminacy. It is the kind of thing that women should take offense at. As an example, as I've mentioned on here before, there have been times at our former church when after coming home on the Lord's Day my wife has said to me "I can't believe grown men can sing those songs."

The reason _some_ men hate going to church is because they need to repent and believe the gospel. The reason some _other_ men hate church is because the church needs to repent and believe the gospel. We're Calvinists here, we believe in the distinction between first and secondary causes, etc., so there is plenty of blame for both the men and the effeminate churches they hate.


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## BJClark (Dec 14, 2006)

Philip A;

Thank you for the link, though I can't listen to the sermon as my sound doesn't work..and I don't have an MP3 player to download it to..



> The issue is not feminity in the church, it it effeminacy. It is the kind of thing that women should take offense at. As an example, as I've mentioned on here before, there have been times at our former church when after coming home on the Lord's Day my wife has said to me "I can't believe grown men can sing those songs."



Can I ask what praise and worship songs grown Christian men who love God should be embarassed to or afraid to sing? Who are they wanting to impress, the people in the pews or standing next to them or God? Do we really think it matters to God if the words might sound cheesy to us if they are praising Him and His Glory, hitting all those high notes along the way? Because it's not about the person sitting in the pew...it's about the persons heart..who is singing the song to God.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see David playing a harp, staying home when he sends his troops off to battle, or dancing and leaping before the Lord as being especially 'masculine' by todays description of masculine. 

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.


I do however, see Sampson, bringing down the pillars as fitting the bill, as the big brutish 'football player'' muscle bound with the physical strength.


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## providenceboard (Dec 14, 2006)




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## BJClark (Dec 14, 2006)

This doesn't sound very "masculine" by todays standard either..

Sgs 2:8	The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.


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## Philip A (Dec 14, 2006)

BJClark said:


> This doesn't sound very "masculine" by todays standard either..
> 
> Sgs 2:8	The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.



Who is the phantom poster who has been arguing for today's standard of masculinity?


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## Pilgrim (Dec 15, 2006)

Philip A said:


> There's a good discussion of the issue of the feminization of the church from Mike Horton and Kim Riddlebarger, HERE.
> 
> The issue is not feminity in the church, it it effeminacy. It is the kind of thing that women should take offense at. As an example, as I've mentioned on here before, there have been times at our former church when after coming home on the Lord's Day my wife has said to me "I can't believe grown men can sing those songs."
> 
> The reason _some_ men hate going to church is because they need to repent and believe the gospel. The reason some _other_ men hate church is because the church needs to repent and believe the gospel. We're Calvinists here, we believe in the distinction between first and secondary causes, etc., so there is plenty of blame for both the men and the effeminate churches they hate.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Dec 15, 2006)

*There's a good discussion of the issue of the feminization of the church from Mike Horton and Kim Riddlebarger, HERE*


thanks for the link, however i was unpleasantly surprised at exactly how much advertising there was on the show.


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