# Is ECO a Reformed body



## Calvinbeza (Mar 13, 2016)

"ECO is just like PCUSA without homosexuals. IS ECO REFORMEd body?


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## Bill The Baptist (Mar 13, 2016)

Being a Baptist, I know firsthand that there is diversity as to how we would precisely define "reformed." However I do feel that the generally accepted standard of confessionalism would apply. To my knowledge, the ECO does not and does not require member churches to subscribe to any of the historic reformed confessions, and so by this standard they would not be considered as "reformed."


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## Beezer (Mar 13, 2016)

Back when I was still trying to find a church home my family explored the possibility, albeit for about 3 seconds, of visiting an ECO church in our area, but decided against it after looking into the denomination more closely. While the ECO does reference its Reformed heritage on the denomination website, I believe most people from a more robust confessional background would not consider the ECO to be truly Reformed.

Here's a short article on the ECO homepage about its evolving confessional identity - http://eco-pres.org/blog/ecos-confessional-identity/


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 13, 2016)

The ECO is the PC(USA) ca. 1985.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 13, 2016)

So ECO just as bad as PCUSA.


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## arapahoepark (Mar 13, 2016)

Calvinbeza said:


> So ECO just as bad as PCUSA.



Well they followed every path the PCUSA did until the gay marriage thing.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 13, 2016)

But why so many confessions? Not just Westminster Confession? Most of the are very weak, like Barmen Declaration or Auburn Affirmation etc


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## arapahoepark (Mar 13, 2016)

Calvinbeza said:


> But why so many confessions? Not just Westminster Confession? Most of the are very weak, like Barmen Declaration or Auburn Affirmation etc



It seems to me that they view them merely historical relics of an evolving church.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 13, 2016)

I wouldn't say "as bad", but definitely just going back in time and staying in the same trajectory.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 13, 2016)

> I wouldn't say "as bad"


yeah PCUSA - homosexuals = ECO


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 13, 2016)

I wouldn't summarize the ECO as simply the PCUSA minus that one issue. My experience with their "confessing movement" is sort of that they're broadly Evangelical. They're "excited about Jesus" but not really much into the WCF as a real standard. You might compare a big ECO Church to something like Rick Warren's Church.

I think they'll end up in the same place but the move simply delays the issue. Historically, if you don't really have a subscriptional doctrine and Church men are ambivalent about it as long as "people get saved" then it's pretty hard to divide the Truth.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 14, 2016)

I heard that they do not use WCF.


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## johnny (Mar 14, 2016)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Historically, if you don't really have a subscriptional doctrine and Church men are ambivalent about it as long as "people get saved" then it's pretty hard to divide the Truth.



Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and have seen this happen recently and I haven't even been confessional all that long.
And is it also fair to say that other problems arise like FV and NPP when the bulwarks are pulled down.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 14, 2016)

The influx of liberal PCUSA churches would split EPC, I think


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 14, 2016)

> This is the problem with the ‘fix’ that many churches in the PCUSA are attempting by leaving the PCUSA to go to perhaps a more conservative, but still non-confessional denomination such as the Evangelical Covenant Order (ECO). The move is simply a stopgap that may hold the conservative line on not allowing for same-sex marriage (for now), but without a strong confessional standard to which churches and ministers are held accountable, it simply resets the clock on the eventual move toward liberalism and apostasy.



from Pastor Peter M. Dietsch article THAT IS NOT MY KIND OF PRESBYTERIAN (http://www.providencemidland.org/resources/pastor-s-blog/180-that-is-not-my-kind-of-presbyterian)


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## Jake (Mar 14, 2016)

Sometimes there can be congregations who are not ready to confess the Westminster Standards but are interested in moving in that direction, and still want to get out of the PC(USA) at soon as possible. I talked to an EPC pastor nearby who was more in line with a denomination like the PCA or more conservative, but his congregation simply was not. They still wanted to get out of the PC(USA) and he was able to teach them Reformed theology as they Reformed (now they have no more women officers and they have more theological sound songs in worship, etc.).


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## Edward (Mar 14, 2016)

Calvinbeza said:


> I heard that they do not use WCF.



Depends on what you mean by 'use'. It's (or at least a version of it) in the Book of Confessions to which their officers subscribe. Or as they say "most deacons, 
ruling elders, and teaching elders"

But using the general meaning of 'use', I'd say you heard wrong. 

http://www.firstpresgreenville.org/documents/ECO-Essential-Tenets-Confessions.pdf


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 14, 2016)

> Depends on what you mean by 'use'



I mean to read, and study WCF.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 15, 2016)

EPC would follow the path of the PCUSA?


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 15, 2016)

I mean more liberalism, less Calvinistic views


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Mar 15, 2016)

I can say that in every EPC church I have visited (and I visited a BUNCH after I filed suit against the PCUSA to quiet title to our church property), the EPC churches were more calvinistic, and less theologically liberal than the PCUSA. From what I see in the EPC (at least in my part of the deep south), the churches that came out of the PCUSA are slowly becoming more conservative. I hope it continues. There will always be exceptions.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 15, 2016)

What about that EPC supports charismatism?


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Mar 15, 2016)

I have never been in an EPC church and seen folks practicing "the so called gifts." I suppose they may exist. I have seen "happy clappy." And not just in the EPC. Read carefully the portion of my post wherein I noted "the churches that came out of the PCUSA are SLOWLY becoming more conservative." Ruminate on that, and the fact that the reformation did not happen overnight. I will be the first to admit the EPC is not perfect. Far from it. But neither is any other body made up of sinners. Perhaps you might consider praying for those whom you disagree theologically?


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## Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2016)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I have never been in an EPC church and seen folks practicing "the so called gifts." I suppose they may exist. I have seen "happy clappy." And not just in the EPC. Read carefully the portion of my post wherein I noted "the churches that came out of the PCUSA are SLOWLY becoming more conservative." Ruminate on that, and the fact that the reformation did not happen overnight. I will be the first to admit the EPC is not perfect. Far from it. But neither is any other body made up of sinners. Perhaps you might consider praying for those whom you disagree theologically?



They absolutely exist although perhaps it is not typical, at least in the South. (I've heard that in other parts of the country you are more likely to find EPC congregations that are more charismatic or dispensational or Amryaldian or whatever and that the old Central South Presbytery was perhaps the most conservative.) There what I suppose could be called a moderate charismatic EPC congregation in my hometown that was formerly PCA. The pastor who recently retired (a name that some here, especially those who were active in certain Reformed Yahoo groups, would recognize) helped facilitate the move of a good many former PCUSA congregations into the EPC in Louisiana and maybe beyond. Some of the people in that church are probably as much (or more) charismatic than they are Reformed. (Some of them were in much more unsound charismatic ministries and came looking for more solid teaching.) While you won't typically see the "gifts" overtly exercised in public worship there, I've seen him "speak in tongues" in a home prayer meeting that is attended by many of the leaders and most dedicated members of the church.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2016)

Calvinbeza said:


> > Depends on what you mean by 'use'
> 
> 
> 
> I mean to read, and study WCF.



By that definition, (assuming you mean that the congregation is taught it) I think there are a good many PCA congregations that fail that test, much less EPC or ECO.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2016)

Calvinbeza said:


> But why so many confessions? Not just Westminster Confession? Most of the are very weak, like Barmen Declaration or Auburn Affirmation etc



The Confession of 1967 was where the PCUSA (I believe it was the UPCUSA then) officially went off the rails from a confessional standpoint. Of course, that wouldn't have ever been formulated or adopted if they weren't already significantly adrift from their doctrinal moorings.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2016)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> I can say that in every EPC church I have visited (and I visited a BUNCH after I filed suit against the PCUSA to quiet title to our church property), the EPC churches were more calvinistic, and less theologically liberal than the PCUSA. From what I see in the EPC (at least in my part of the deep south), the churches that came out of the PCUSA are slowly becoming more conservative. I hope it continues. There will always be exceptions.



I think this is correct, at least with a good many of them. Some of the leaders, even if they were educated in PCUSA seminaries, seem to have moved to the "right", perhaps rethinking their whole position. I know one who has been to the Twin Lakes Fellowship. Most of them were probably more or less evangelical before and may be leaning more Reformed now. And keep in mind that, depending on where they started or how long they've been the pastor, they have to slowly lead their congregations in a more Biblical direction. In some cases it took years to convince the congregation to leave the PCUSA in the first place. 

When these congregations call a new pastor, I would think in most cases it's not going to be someone from a PCUSA seminary. (I'm referring to more recent graduates.) It might be a RTS campus or maybe Gordon-Conwell or somewhere like that. I'm not sure how many people from somewhere like Fuller would go into the EPC at this point. They might think it is too conservative, depending on the presbytery. 

Other than the charismatic one I've already mentioned, I've visited 3 other EPC congregations multiple times. I've actually profited more from the preaching in the former PCUSA congregations than I have in an EPC congregation that was planted within the past 2 decades. There is obviously more to a church than preaching, but I think that is a good indicator. In those cases, the preaching was probably just about as faithful as I've found in several PCA congregations I've visited in my travels over the past few years.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 15, 2016)

In the Mid-South Presbytery is the most conservative Presbytery in the EPC. In Michigan 2/3 of the EPC is charismatic


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