# St. Francis of Assissi



## Romans922 (Jun 6, 2008)

"Wherever you go, preach the gospel; when necessary, use words."

What do you guys think of this, specifically that which is underlined.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 6, 2008)

'Ye are my epistles' comes to mind.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 6, 2008)

Logos comes to mind. It is necessary. Just like Revelation is necessary. 

Faith cometh by hearing. Hearing comes by the Word of God. 

I understand what Francis was saying. We should be living epistles. But I personally don't like the quote.


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## staythecourse (Jun 6, 2008)

It would be a good guess that he was dealing with hypocrisy among the brethren. It is easier to talk about the goodness of God in the gospel than live it out to others. James epistle, one of the earliest, exhorts us to give to those in need rather than pray without sacrifice. For me it's a reminder to not blaspheme the name of God among the Gentiles by my actions among them.


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## Reformingstudent (Jun 6, 2008)

This verse came to mind while reading that quote: 
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. 

Don't know if that applies here but that's what I was thinking. Some times people see our actions before they hear our words.


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## SolaGratia (Jun 6, 2008)

How about this;

Acts 1:1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that *Jesus began both to do and teach,*


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## Davidius (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't like the phrase "when necessary." Although our good works are important, they do not convey the content of the gospel. It makes me think of faith without works being dead. The two are inseparable. The words aren't something that can be just thrown in there. They give the actions meaning.


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## staythecourse (Jun 7, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I don't like the phrase "when necessary." Although our good works are important, they do not convey the content of the gospel. It makes me think of faith without works being dead. The two are inseparable. The words aren't something that can be just thrown in there. They give the actions meaning.



Absolutely, David. Francis I am sure spoke of Christ more during the day with his mouth than several of us on the board put together (me for sure.) His audience, or whoever he was thinking about when he wrote that, were those who would make a mockery of Christianity by not having the graciousness of God to them being lived out in their lives. To me that is simply hypocrisy a deadly trait and embarrassing to see (esp. if you a "saint" like Francis was/is still)


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## fredtgreco (Jun 7, 2008)

I think of latte drinking, goatee wearing, ministers who are afraid to say the Lord's "Yes" and "No," and who feel sheepish about "Thus saith the Lord."


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## JohnOwen007 (Jun 7, 2008)

I think Francis is *badly wrong*! The gospel is *not* the actions that we do. The gospel is a message that can *only be spoken with words *. This is *always* the case in the Bible. Just look at any occurence of the word "gospel".

It badly blurs the distinction between the *root *of the gospel and it's *fruit*. My works are the *fruit*. Anything else is works salvation.

Hence, Paul tells the Philippians not to live the gospel but to live lives *worthy* of the gospel (1:27). My works bear testimony to the gospel, but the gospel is fundamentally about Jesus' works.

We must get this right!


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## Julio Martinez Jr (Jun 7, 2008)

*A Response*



Romans922 said:


> "Wherever you go, preach the gospel; when necessary, use words."
> 
> What do you guys think of this, specifically that which is underlined.



Magnanimous as it might sound for the Christian to live a constant godly life, it is impossible for the Christian to be "preaching" the gospel without the use of propositions. It never failed the apostles to write letters for specific instructions as to how one ought to live their faith and proliferate that faith by oration. So I stand in the use of words; therefore, it is always necessary to use words.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 7, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> "Wherever you go, preach the gospel; when necessary, use words."
> 
> What do you guys think of this, specifically that which is underlined.



It's not theologically precise, but it's not meant to be; all Francis is saying is that we are to live out the gospel in our lives. After all, why would the world want to listen to our words, if our lives are a contradiction of the gospel.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2008)

I think David is right about 'when necessary', I think the 'when necessary' is the sort of thing that makes a statement have a certain startling poetry, but doesn't really add to clarity. Clarity however doesn't seem to have been St Francis' strong point, while poetry does. Words are indeed necessary to give meaning to actions.

I appreciate Mr. Foord's point that the gospel is not our actions; but I took the intent of the statement to be more that our changed actions preach God's power and grace to change; that our love to sinners preaches God's unmerited love? -- that it is not our own actions we are preaching as the gospel, but God's grace that is not merely theoretical but effectual, and has made such things as selflessness and rectitude in people possible in spite of their own and the world's corruption?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 7, 2008)

To quote from a modern (liberal) theologian:



> Words are power, essentially the power of creation. By my words I both discover and create who I am. By my words I elicit a word from you. Through our converse we create each other.
> 
> When God _said_, "Let there be light," there _was_ light where before there was only darkness. When I _say_ I love you, there is love where before there was only ambiguous silence. In a sense I do not love you first and then speak it, but only by speaking it give it reality. -- Frederick Buechner, _Beyond Words: Daily Readings in the ABC's of Faith_, p. 413


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> To quote from a modern (liberal) theologian:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Would it then be possible to say that since God's Word creates the reality of our changed actions, by those actions (though not exclusive of language) we preach His Word?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 7, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> > To quote from a modern (liberal) theologian:
> ...



In a theologically imprecise way, yes it would. Goldy living is the fruit of the Gospel, which points people to the Gospel.

When we read things such as the quote like Francis above, we should not expect the precision of a Systematic Theology. After all, what do we do with the verses in the Bible which say God has arms and eyes?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 7, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
> 
> 
> > To quote from a modern (liberal) theologian:
> ...



My line of thinking is this: all of nature testifies to God, and as Christians we testify to the grace of God working in us by our conduct, and by our words (or sometimes by our silence). But I would not describe our actions as "preaching." The heavens declare the glory of God, but it is not preaching. We who are vessels of God's grace and mercy, bear the imprint of our gracious Heavenly Father's face, and show forth his praise and glory with or without words. _Preaching_ is a distinct means of grace ordained by God without which ordinarily there is no possibility of salvation. It involves the proclamation of the "good news," the gospel, ie., the Word. The witness of Christians by good behavior ought to draw men to hear that Word preached. But I would distinguish those two things (witness and preaching) because one is general (creation, the good conduct of believers) and one is specific (the proclamation of the gospel by those sent by God and likewise ordained as his heralds). Therefore, they are not interchangeable, and in fact, preaching has priority. One may give a cup of cold water to another in need and so bear witness to Christ, or one may give a cup of cold water for altruistic but unbelieving reasons which is sin. But by the Word, even by the preaching of the Word, we may understand what is good and right, because it is God's own Word, his self-revelation, who is goodness, and righteousness, and holiness. His Word puts our actions in proper context. It even goes deeper than actions which we can only superficially observe; it exposes hypocrisy, because it is a two-edged sword. So I would revise what Francis said to say, "Wherever you go, testify to the gospel; your life must be joined to your words, words being necessary to the preaching of the gospel, and your good deeds must accompany them as heat and light accompany fire (Martin Luther). I hope this helps. I know it's a "precisionist" response to St. Francis, but c'est moi.


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## Shane (Jun 7, 2008)

*Question*

 I remember hearing from somone (Can't recall who) that he never really said that? Dont know if anyone could shed some light on that?


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2008)

Shane, here is some information from the 'Ask a Franciscan' website:

*Q:** I keep seeing St. Francis of Assisi credited as saying, “Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.” I have looked in several places but cannot find where St. Francis said this. 
*
*A:* This is a great quote, very Franciscan in its spirit, but not literally from St. Francis. The thought is his; this catchy phrasing is not in his writings or in the earliest biographies about him. 
In Chapter XVII of his Rule of 1221, Francis told the friars not to preach unless they had received the proper permission to do so. Then he added, “Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.” 
I had been a Franciscan for 28 years—and had earned an M.A. in Franciscan studies—before I heard the “Use words if necessary” quote. That was during Msgr. Kenneth Velo’s homily at Cardinal Joseph L. Bernardin’s funeral in 1996. 
About a year ago, a friend of mine used the Internet to contact some of the most eminent Franciscan scholars in the world, seeking the source of this “Use words if necessary” quote. It is clearly not in any of Francis’ writings. After a couple weeks of searching, no scholar could find this quote in a story written within 200 years of Francis’ death. 
This saying and the “Peace Prayer,” which Francis certainly did not write, are easily identified with him because they so thoroughly reflect his spirit. Unfortunately, they would not have become as widespread if they had been attributed to “John Smith” or “Mary Jones.” 
Exhaustive research on the origins of the “Peace Prayer of St. Francis” has led to Christian Renoux’s new book in French. This 210-page study (ISBN 2-85020-096-4) is described at www.electre.com under _Les Editions Franciscaines_. 
An 11th-century French prayer is similar to the first part of the “Peace Prayer.” The oldest known copy of the current prayer, however, dates to 1912 in France. The prayer became more well known in other countries during World War I. 
This prayer is sold all over Assisi today—but always under the title “A Simple Prayer.” Whoever linked it to St. Francis guaranteed a wide diffusion of the text. The same is true for the “Use words if necessary” quote. Both reflect St. Francis very well.


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## a mere housewife (Jun 7, 2008)

Incidentally Ruben suggests we write a book, _What St Francis Really Said. _It could be the manifesto of a 'New Perspectives on St Francis' movement.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 7, 2008)

a mere housewife said:


> Incidentally Ruben suggests we write a book, _What St Francis Really Said. _It could be the manifesto of a 'New Perspectives on St Francis' movement.


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