# Preparation for Seminary and Ministry



## Minh (Sep 27, 2019)

I currently enrolled in university right now in studying civil engineering, which I loath so much. However, my main interest is still in the ministry and in theological study. In fact, ever since I was converted, God has blessed me abundantly with theological resources that I afforded at lower costs. I long for Packer's Knowing God, Calvin's Institutes, F.F.Bruce's biography on the Apostle Paul, etc...and God provided me what I ask for in prayers. I would prefer to read these works rather than spending a ridiculous amount of time on solving matrices or linear equations. So I have good reasons to believe that I'm gifted for the ministry.

If any of you have completed a seminary education, what are your advice on how to attain a theological education, particularly in the United States? I live in Canada but I find American reformed seminaries are much more theologically correct than politically correct. Also, 1 Timothy 3:2 prescribes the characteristics of a minister. How do you prepare for training in godliness aside from a theological education? I hope the Lord is willing for my desire.


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## deleteduser99 (Sep 27, 2019)

Have you spoken with your elders? What do they think?

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## greenbaggins (Sep 27, 2019)

First, I would recommend you look at all the videos of Al Martin. Go through the whole course. He addresses all of the questions you ask. Then, are you part of a local church that is interested in developing you as a person and leader? You will need opportunities to teach. Find a pastor who will mentor you. As to theological education, make sure you finish your bachelor's so that you have a way to support yourself in seminary. If you have an opportunity to visit some of the seminaries, then I would recommend the following: either Westminster Seminary (though Philly is, in my opinion, the best of all of them at the moment), Mid-America Reformed Seminary, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary (Jackson and Charlotte are the two best branches), New Geneva Theological Seminary, and Heidelberg Theological Seminary (not sure about accreditation for the last two). Look for affordability in relation to the quality of education, and get the best you can afford.

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## Taylor (Sep 27, 2019)

Basically, I will tell you to do the exact opposite of what I did:

1) Actively seek assessment and training from your elders _before_ considering seminary.

2) Go to a _confessionally Reformed_ seminary.

3) Don't be so interested in going to the seminary that has the best "scholarship" or has the best purely academic credentials. I was far too interested in that when I was looking for seminaries.

Don't get me wrong, I do not regret going to TEDS, but I left there frankly not prepared for ministry. I can sit down all day and discuss what critical scholarship says about how the Pentateuch was written/compiled, but I feel my inadequacies for practical ministry, probably more so than when I entered seminary. And what practical help I did get was either obvious or useless. Go to a seminary that is interested in and committed to training people for _Reformed_ ministry—even if that seminary is unaccredited (this isn't as important as some people make it out to be, in my opinion, and is a lot of the time a hindrance rather than a help).

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## Regi Addictissimus (Sep 27, 2019)

Harley said:


> Have you spoken with your elders?


Step one is to pray, pray, and pray some more. I am not talking about pray for a week and then decide. You need to be wrestling with this in prayer for an extended time. The ministry is the most solemn position one can aspire. After a lot of prayer, speak to your elders. Ask your TE if he will mentor you. I would also recommend Al Martin's Pastoral Theology, vol. 1: The Man of God- His Calling and Godly Life, and John Brown's Counsel to Gospel Ministers. I would also suggest prayerfully studying some Systematic Theologies. My company is affiliated with Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. PRTS puts a strong emphasis on homiletics, personal piety, and historical Reformed theology. If you are serious about ministry, PRTS and Greenville should be at the top of your list. We have students from a few Canada. Please feel free to e-mail with questions.


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## Minh (Sep 27, 2019)

Reformed Bookworm said:


> I would also suggest prayerfully studying some Systematic Theologies



A little bit off topic here but what systematic theology would you recommend? I have one written by J. Oliver Bushwell. But some people would prefer Grudem for his plain writing. Any suggestion?


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## greenbaggins (Sep 27, 2019)

If you wish to read an ST before seminary, I would not recommend either Buswell or Grudem. Go with Berkhof or Vos as your first ST.

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## Taylor (Sep 27, 2019)

Minh said:


> A little bit off topic here but what systematic theology would you recommend? I have one written by J. Oliver Bushwell. But some people would prefer Grudem for his plain writing. Any suggestion?





greenbaggins said:


> If you wish to read an ST before seminary, I would not recommend either Buswell or Grudem. Go with Berkhof or Vos as your first ST.



I second Rev. Keister's recommendation. Berkhof is what pretty much everyone will tell you is a good first Reformed systematic theology. Buswell isn't bad and Grudem is okay, but you will never, ever go wrong with Berkhof. In fact, I would go ahead and suggest, if you are interested in pre-seminary studies, that you get his _Systematic Theology_, his _Introduction to Systematic Theology_, his _The History of Christian Doctrines_, and his _New Testament Introduction_. Obviously, in terms of historical theology and New Testament introductions, there are more up-to-date and comprehensive places to go, but Berkhof will give you a good Reformed introduction to these disciplines, and will provide a good base for your seminary studies should you enroll.


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## Regi Addictissimus (Sep 27, 2019)

Minh said:


> A little bit off topic here but what systematic theology would you recommend? I have one written by J. Oliver Bushwell. But some people would prefer Grudem for his plain writing. Any suggestion?



I would suggest starting off with Berkhof along with having a thorough understanding of the Westminster Standards. Work your way through the WCF with some commentaries. I suggest David Dickson, Robert Shaw, and Hodge.

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## Regi Addictissimus (Sep 27, 2019)

I would also suggest having a thorough grasp of Covenant Theology. Herman Witsius' Economy of the Covenants should be a priority. We publish a helpful outline.

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## ChrisJuloya (Sep 27, 2019)

I can somewhat relate to you, Mihn, and Taylor. Before I became a member of a Reformed church, I have been given opportunities to teach in the singles ministry at a non-denominational mega church that I was once a part of.

Having skills in teaching and training (as I was an Instructional Designer and Trainer by profession), I think that was what gave way for the opportunity to teach in ministry, on top of my desire for deeper studies of the Scripture.

Around that time, I was "reforming" while also teaching in the ministry (I thank the Lord for not allowing me to teach when I was in my cage-stage, but I'm sure there were hints of it). This was a struggle because the foundational doctrines that I have learned from the Reformed tradition is in contradiction with most of what the mega church teach.

For a time, I tried looking for Reformed churches while still teaching on Fridays at that mega church and by God's grace, He led me to a confessional reformed church. In this journey, though I have a desire to go into ministry, I knew there it's not as easy as that.

Be part of and commit to a local church. Just a background, I am currently finishing a degree on Theological Studies and this happened even before I became part of our local church and it is actually through our church that I was introduced to the school (Miami International Seminary). While I do learn a lot from my studies, it is in the context of the local church and guidance of our elders that I am able to maximize the things I'm learning at the same time being mentored accordingly being prepared for ministry.

While I am way far from church plant or even ordination, but because I was able to express my desire and asked to be mentored, our pastor has recommended that I apply for internship at our church and for sure will be learning a lot more from this experience. I see that you're a part of Free Presbyterian Church in North America according to your profile, your elders should be able to confirm and guide you and pray for and with you.

My experience is unique and what you'll go through would probably be different. Continue to pray for guidance and wisdom at the same time be guided by your elders. You don't want to be going through seminary then end up not really wanting to be in ministry. A lot of people have already wanted to go into ministry because of "skills" or because they do not want the situation they are in. Don't get me wrong, of course skills are needed, but solely because one thinks he has the gift that he should go to ministry, is I think not a wise reason for going into it.

My girlfriend's uncle who is also a pastor, when he knew of my desire to go into ministry has asked me a very wise question that I will never forget. He asked, "are you willing to die for the sheep?" Since then, I have viewed ministry in a whole new and serious level.

(At the same time, he asked my girlfriend if she is willing to fully support me in the ministry-we're still together a year after that so I guess it's a yes haha)

There are a lot of pastors here who have decades of experience and can give you better advice on ministry and preparation compared to me who is just about to really start the "kindergarten" of ministry. But I'm with Robert's advice: to pray, pray, pray.

Read a lot, learn a lot. And get your books from heritagebooks.org, I get almost all my books from them, including Witsuis' The Economy of the Covenants and its outline. 

And Vos, get Vos' ST! One of the greatest advice Rev. Lane has given to me and probably to most of the PB members (Still working through it though ).


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## Edward (Sep 27, 2019)

Since everyone else is giving positive suggestions, I'll take up the burden of going negative. 

Avoid Covenant Seminary - too Woke these days.
Avoid Dallas Theological Seminary - some good scholarship, but it is Dispensational, not Reformed.
Avoid anything PCUSA related - this line item shouldn't even be needed. 

Avoid getting a useless undergraduate degree. Get something that will support you if you need it, even if you don't really like the field.

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## bookslover (Sep 27, 2019)

Minh said:


> I currently enrolled in university right now in studying civil engineering, which I loath so much.



Why are you studying a subject you hate? If you feel you must study a secular subject (in case ministry plans don't work out), you should at least study something you have some interest in.


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## bookslover (Sep 27, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> First, I would recommend you look at all the videos of Al Martin.



Better yet, read the books. The first two volumes have been published, with a final volume coming in the near future (I hope):

_Pastoral Theology: Volume 1: The Man of God: His Calling and Godly Life_ by Albert N. Martin (Montville: Trinity Pulpit Press, 2018)

_Pastoral Theology: Volume 2: The Man of God: His Preaching and Teaching Labors_ by Albert N. Martin (Montville: Trinity Pulpit Press, 2018)

_Pastoral Theology: Volume 3: The Man of God: His Shepherding, Evangelizing, and Counseling Labors_ by Albert N. Martin (Montville: Trinity Pulpit Press, forthcoming)

The videos are, doubtless, fine, but the printed volumes contain the teaching in a more permanent form.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 27, 2019)

Minh said:


> I currently enrolled in university right now in studying civil engineering, which I loath so much. However, my main interest is still in the ministry and in theological study. In fact, ever since I was converted, God has blessed me abundantly with theological resources that I afforded at lower costs. I long for Packer's Knowing God, Calvin's Institutes, F.F.Bruce's biography on the Apostle Paul, etc...and God provided me what I ask for in prayers. I would prefer to read these works rather than spending a ridiculous amount of time on solving matrices or linear equations. So I have good reasons to believe that I'm gifted for the ministry.



Brother, your attitude to your work does not sound like that of someone who is gifted for ministry. When I was about your age, I was thinking of pursuing ministry studies but was currently stuck in a rather displeasing civil service job. I thought, sure, what does it matter if I am competent at my work, I am going to go into the ministry anyway. Then it struck me if that is my attitude to my lawful calling, what sort of a mess would I make of the church if I were to become a minister. 

One of the qualifications for ministry is to be well-spoken of by outsiders, which normally requires you to be diligent in your work and studies. My advice is to learn to be content with what you are doing at the minute and concentrate on it for the time being. That does not necessarily mean that you cannot pursue something else in an orderly way when an opportunity arises, but for the time being, I would forget about ministry and concentrate on practical godliness, growing in grace, and maturing theologically.

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## Minh (Sep 27, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Brother, your attitude to your work does not sound like that of someone who is gifted for ministry. When I was about your age, I was thinking of pursuing ministry studies but was currently stuck in a rather displeasing civil service job. I thought, sure, what does it matter if I am competent at my work, I am going to go into the ministry anyway. Then it struck me if that is my attitude to my lawful calling, what sort of a mess would I make of the church if I were to become a minister.
> 
> One of the qualifications for ministry is to be well-spoken of by outsiders, which normally requires you to be diligent in your work and studies. My advice is to learn to be content with what you are doing at the minute and concentrate on it for the time being. That does not necessarily mean that you cannot pursue something else in an orderly way when an opportunity arises, but for the time being, I would forget about ministry and concentrate on practical godliness, growing in grace, and maturing theologically.



I just consult with Rev. Ian Goligher about this. He said that I should be hardworking and diligent in what I'm called into right now. As for the desire for ministry, he said I should be patient for the Lord to act while I keep on praying for the next 4 years and eight months. Perhaps the Lord uses this time to train me up for godliness.

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## Polanus1561 (Sep 27, 2019)

Learn about the textual debate so you will not be caught in surprise at seminary.


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## ArminianOnceWas (Sep 28, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Brother, your attitude to your work does not sound like that of someone who is gifted for ministry. When I was about your age...



It sounds a little bit like "do as I did because it must be right" the Reformed Covenanter. As for me, in the limitations of this thread, I have found nothing to make such a strong proclamation as to doubt your attitude and gifts.


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## De Jager (Sep 28, 2019)

Dear OP. I have a Civil Engineering degree. There were times when I hated it too. Midterms are coming up which is an especially hard time. I would finish your degree. It is good to have a trade to support you/your family if the ministry is not where God is calling you. Civil Engineering is a noble profession and is certainly worthy of your full effort, for a time at least.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 28, 2019)

ArminianOnceWas said:


> It sounds a little bit like "do as I did because it must be right" the Reformed Covenanter. As for me, in the limitations of this thread, I have found nothing to make such a strong proclamation as to doubt your attitude and gifts.



I was using an example from personal experience to illustrate the validity of a general principle. The pastor to whom the brother spoke was in agreement with the substance of what I said.


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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 28, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> Go with Berkhof or Vos as your first ST.


Lane, I am inclined to think that Bavinck should be read before Vos for the simple reason being that Bavinck has starts with a Prolegomena which provides an important foundation for a solid systematic theology. In this regard I am reminded of Richard Muller's preface to the new combined edition of Berkhof's ST where he states " ... the historical and doctrinal confusion that I have elsewhere called the "myth of decretal theology" has found some justification in the truncated systematic theology, as it may also in the other works of late nineteenth- and early twentieth Dutch Reformed theology published without 
Prolegomena- notably, the works of Vos, Kuyper ... "


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 28, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Lane, I am inclined to think that Bavinck should be read before Vos for the simple reason being that Bavinck has starts with a Prolegomena which provides an important foundation for a solid systematic theology.



That point is definitely an interesting one, Stephen. But is Lane's direction with respect to reading not more along the lines that it is better to start with something simpler and then work your way up to the more difficult material? I have read a fair bit about the history of theology/philosophy in the 19th century and there were even times when I struggled to make a lot of sense of some of the stuff in Herman Bavinck's Prolegomena (volume 1 of _Reformed Dogmatics_).


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## greenbaggins (Sep 29, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Lane, I am inclined to think that Bavinck should be read before Vos for the simple reason being that Bavinck has starts with a Prolegomena which provides an important foundation for a solid systematic theology. In this regard I am reminded of Richard Muller's preface to the new combined edition of Berkhof's ST where he states " ... the historical and doctrinal confusion that I have elsewhere called the "myth of decretal theology" has found some justification in the truncated systematic theology, as it may also in the other works of late nineteenth- and early twentieth Dutch Reformed theology published without
> Prolegomena- notably, the works of Vos, Kuyper ... "



I think Bavinck is way too difficult to read for a first ST. Berkhof is published now, in the combined version, with his introduction, which does contain a prolegomena, which could very well give it the edge over Vos, much as I sound like a heretic to myself to say so.

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## brendanchatt (Sep 29, 2019)

The Canadian Reformed Church has a seminary that I’m told is inexpensive, fyi. I don’t know much about it, though.


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## Stephen L Smith (Oct 2, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> That point is definitely an interesting one, Stephen. But is Lane's direction with respect to reading not more along the lines that it is better to start with something simpler and then work your way up to the more difficult material? I have read a fair bit about the history of theology/philosophy in the 19th century and there were even times when I struggled to make a lot of sense of some of the stuff in Herman Bavinck's Prolegomena (volume 1 of _Reformed Dogmatics_).





greenbaggins said:


> I think Bavinck is way too difficult to read for a first ST. Berkhof is published now, in the combined version, with his introduction, which does contain a prolegomena, which could very well give it the edge over Vos, much as I sound like a heretic to myself to say so.


Note that this thread is "preparation for seminary ..." so one assumes a man would have a theological knowledge greater than a basic ST.

I included that comment by Richard Muller because he made me reflect on the dangers of studying theology without a Prolegomena. I do think this is important because of the ongoing attacks on the authority of scripture. 

If you still think Bavinck is a little difficult, perhaps read Berkhof's ST (new combined edition includes his Prolegomena) then Vos' work.

Note: I am a layman who enjoys Bavinck. My suggestion is read Berkhof first. Then read each chapter in Bavinck's work; read the summary first and digest this. Then read the chapter in Bavinck, after this go back to the summary to ensure you have grasped the important points. That method helped me.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 2, 2019)

Bavinck has a better style than Berkhof. Berkhof is more focused, so there is perhaps a trade-off. I would start by reading Aristotle's _Categories_. It can be read in one sitting. He introduces you to substance terminology which all the major STs are using.

Shedd is my favorite but he is too uneven.

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## Minh (Oct 2, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> Go with Berkhof or Vos as your first ST.





Taylor Sexton said:


> I second Rev. Keister's recommendation. Berkhof is what pretty much everyone will tell you is a good first Reformed systematic theology. Buswell isn't bad and Grudem is okay, but you will never, ever go wrong with Berkhof.



Do you have any Amazon link to buy Berkhof's ST in physical copies?


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## Taylor (Oct 2, 2019)

Minh said:


> Do you have any Amazon link to buy Berkhof's ST in physical copies?



It appears Amazon is no longer carrying new copies of that. Strange.

The problem with buying Berkhof in a physical copy is that you really only have two choices, and they are between one good quality but not complete, and another poorer quality but complete. The Banner of Truth edition is beautiful—printed in the USA, great paper, sewn binding, hardback—but it is lacking the _Introduction to Systematic Theology_. The Eerdman's edition is very poor quality—paperback, glued binding, thick—but it contains the very important _Introduction to Systemtic Theology_.

Basically, you just have to pick which one you want, depending on whether you want better quality, or more information. Personally, I would buy the Banner of Truth edition and find a good edition of the _Introduction_ in some separate format.

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## Stephen L Smith (Oct 2, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Personally, I would buy the Banner of Truth edition and find a good edition of the _Introduction_ in some separate format.


Agreed. I have actually suggested to Banner they produce a complete edition of Berkhof's work. But you can get a copy of the Introduction here.

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## Minh (Oct 4, 2019)

Stephen L Smith said:


> If you still think Bavinck is a little difficult, perhaps read Berkhof's ST (new combined edition includes his Prolegomena) then Vos' work.





Taylor Sexton said:


> Basically, you just have to pick which one you want, depending on whether you want better quality, or more information. Personally, I would buy the Banner of Truth edition and find a good edition of the _Introduction_ in some separate format.



Brethren, I could not believe what God just did for me in His gracious plan. I never thought I could acquire a copy of Berkhof's ST until this evening when I leave school for a Christian bookstore for refreshment. As I enter the section where they sell second-hand books, I was so amazed that Berkhof's ST was on the shelve. Even though it is a 1974 edition without the Introduction, nevertheless the ST itself is enough anyway. I brought at a very low cost. If any of you actually pray for me on this, may God bless you abundantly!

_Come and hear, all who fear God, And I will tell of what He has done for my soul. (Ps 66:16)_

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