# How do days of thanksgiving fit in with the RPW and a ban on holidays?



## Confessor (May 1, 2009)

If man-instituted days of thanksgiving are permitted, what about them separates them from holidays such that the latter are forbidden to be instituted? And, secondly, are annual days of thanksgiving allowed to be made?

If the second question above is answered in the affirmative, then could not a celebrator of Christmas or Easter argue that such holidays are merely holidays thanking God for the Incarnation or for the atonement and resurrection? What about holidays makes them of a different nature than days of thanksgiving?

I have been convinced for a while that holidays are forbidden by the RPW, but I have been having a bit of trouble understanding how thanksgiving fits in with everything else.


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## Scott1 (May 1, 2009)

You may find helpful some of the recent past threads on this topic (you may have participated in some).

One in particular had a lot of discussion about this topic and produced a near riot (spirited discussion). You may find particularly helpful the comments of Virginia Huguenot: 

[If we ever develop a thread hall of fame on the Board, one that will be helpful to refer back to over the years, this one below ought be included]

http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/not-celebrating-christmas-41057/


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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

As to that thread see here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/not-celebrating-christmas-41057/index3.html#post510410
Also in there somewhere in the links I provided Gillespie addresses this question specifically; and being an eventual author of the Westminster Directory for Publick Worship I think his view is significant.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

Here it is:
Part 1: Holy Days take away our Christian Liberty Proved Out of the Law (EPC 1.7 31-36) | Naphtali Press
See Sect. 6


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## jwithnell (May 1, 2009)

It seems a pretty big jump to go from the RPW which governs public worship to a ban on all holidays (unless they are holidays being imposed on others for legalistic purposes or holidays involving practices forbidden in scripture). 

The Westminster Confession specifically calls for special days of fasting and thanksgiving and in a sense, many holidays have a flavor of thanksgiving -- our national Thanksgiving Day, July 4 thanks for our Independence, Memorial Day thanks for those who have served and died, etc. 

Even in Puritan New England, election day and commencement days at colleges were set aside as holidays.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

In any discussion such as this we shouldn't confuse the modern concept of "holidays" and religious "holy days." The latter is what the Puritans were confronting.


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## OPC'n (May 1, 2009)

Why not celebrate His birth, death, and resurrection everyday in what you do and say? Have Christmas as a family get together since that's really what it is.


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## Grafted In (May 1, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> It seems a pretty big jump to go from the RPW which governs public worship to a ban on all holidays (unless they are holidays being imposed on others for legalistic purposes or holidays involving practices forbidden in scripture).
> 
> The Westminster Confession specifically calls for special days of fasting and thanksgiving and in a sense, many holidays have a flavor of thanksgiving -- our national Thanksgiving Day, July 4 thanks for our Independence, Memorial Day thanks for those who have served and died, etc.
> 
> Even in Puritan New England, election day and commencement days at colleges were set aside as holidays.



Yes, I believe that you are correct that days of fasting, prayer, thanksgiving, and other days such as civic holidays all have there part in the life of the Christian, but if we are talking about the RPW then we are talking about what is prescribed in the Scriptures regarding the corporate worship of the Church on the Lord's Day. 

When I gather together with God's people as he calls us to himself on the Lord's Day I want to hear about the Incarnation, death, burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ every week. I don't want to have the various parts of the gospel dispensed to me in installments four or eight months apart.


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## BG (May 1, 2009)

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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

Yes.


WDG said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > In any discussion such as this we shouldn't confuse the modern concept of "holidays" and religious "holy days." The latter is what the Puritans were confronting.
> ...


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## BG (May 1, 2009)

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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

Folks treat it as one or the other, or even both I guess. But as far as part of the question of the OP, I think reading the Gillespie is key to understanding the distinction the Puritans made between holy days and lawfully called days of fasting and thanksgiving.


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## BG (May 1, 2009)

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## Scott1 (May 1, 2009)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...



It would seem that language like this might sanction a holiday such as Thanksgiving. In a sense, it is (here in the USA) a religious holiday because its stated purpose is a day to reflect on the blessings of Providence particularly on our nation and in our particular lives.

Certainly, not all celebrate it this way, but that has been its stated purpose since its inception.

As I recall there was some discussion about this on the thread last year, not everyone agreed, but it appears the Thanksgiving "holiday" began with the Pilgrims [Puritans] as a holiday tradition, at least in the USA.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 1, 2009)

For background on holy days in American Presbyterianism see:
The Religious Observance of Christmas and "Holy-Days" in American Presbyterianism


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## MW (May 1, 2009)

James Bannerman's treatment of holidays in "Church of Christ" provides the most useful definition because it gives the elements of a religious festival which must be present in order to constitute it such. Those elements are (1.) a public and general appointment, made binding by the ordinance of the Church upon all its members, and (2.) stated and permanent appointments by the Church, recurring as regularly in religious service as the weekly Sabbath, and constituting part of ordinary worship, and not merely occasional and extraordinary appointments.


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## PresbyDane (May 1, 2009)




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## jwithnell (May 2, 2009)

> When I gather together with God's people as he calls us to himself on the Lord's Day I want to hear about the Incarnation, death, burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ every week. I don't want to have the various parts of the gospel dispensed to me in installments four or eight months apart.



What drives me crazy about this too, is that it usually means that some outstanding hymns get relegated to certain days or seasons instead of joyfully used throughout the year!

If you are blessed, as I am, to sit under excellent exegetical preaching, a least the text and sermons aren't spaced out seasonally!


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## grit (Jul 20, 2009)

[dialog awaiting proscribed clarity and/or sanctioned tutorial per the FAQ]


grit said:


> ...
> The early Church certainly sanctioned and honoured more than exclusive Sunday worship.
> ...
> 
> ...


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## toddpedlar (Jul 20, 2009)

grit said:


> The early Church certainly sanctioned and honoured more than exclusive Sunday worship.



What's the source of this claim? I'd love to see some evidence.



> What I’m getting at is there remains the observance of spiritual freedoms in Christ and worshipful honours to His person and work which might rightly and scripturally be sanctioned as a regulation of worship consistent with the Jewish calendar. When Paul in Galatians (a primary passage on the subject) references, “ the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more”, and fears he may have laboured in vain for that they, “observe days and months and seasons and years” (4, 9-10, ESV), he is speaking to the demonic trap of legalism at the hands of power-grubbing Judaizers, of wrongly thinking that works of ritual are of any merit against faith. He is not discounting either the value of regular orderly worship, the cycles of nature and spiritual remembrance, or the Jewish calendar, just as he does not the spiritual value of the moral Law; but he is seeking to rescue new believers from forms without substance, from turning Sabbath rest into chains of slavery, from observance without real reconciliation through Christ.
> 
> If we obediently find in Scripture the true value of celebrating Jesus’ incarnation as angels, shepherds, and wise men did, and an appreciation of the week of Christ’s passion, crucifixion, and resurrection; we might want to reconsider the calendar pattern we find, not in a fruitless slavery of obligatory works, but in the celebration of fulfillment in Christ of redemptive history as seasoned throughout the Jewish Biblical calendar.



Let me see if I can wade through this. Are you advocating observance not of co-opted pagan rituals, but observance, rather, of Christian-ized Jewish feast days? Just trying to understand your point.


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## Tripel (Jul 20, 2009)

Grafted In said:


> When I gather together with God's people as he calls us to himself on the Lord's Day I want to hear about the Incarnation, death, burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ every week.



And is this happening at your church?


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 20, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> It seems a pretty big jump to go from the RPW which governs public worship to a ban on all holidays (unless they are holidays being imposed on others for legalistic purposes or holidays involving practices forbidden in scripture).



By the nature of public worship, imposition of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Mother’s Day, or Superbowl Sunday, upon Lord’s Day worship because of man invented influences deprives believers of Christian Liberty without warrant from scripture.

Of course the Incarnation, Resurrection, Ascension, Holy Spirit Empowerment, and Christ’s anticipated Parousia should be regularly expounded in reading and preaching of the word. A systematic and consecutive preaching of the scriptures will insure the whole counsel of God is set before a congregation, without distraction by man made, sentimental, people pleasing, cultural fluff.

Elders have the liberty to call for special days of prayer, fasting or thanksgiving upon unique providential circumstances. Celebrating annual, tradition or taste dictated festivals as part of Lord’s Day public worship has no warrant in God’s word.

That said, I enjoy Thanksgiving as the closest thing we have in America to a sabbath rest, when most businesses close, life slows down, traffic is light, and we enjoy a great day of food and fellowship. There is nothing to prevent individuals or groups from a seasonal cultural festival, decorations, gift giving, special foods or gatherings as long as it does not impose upon worship or the keeping holy of the Lord’s Day. But, such matters clutter the life, worship, preaching and activities of the Church, and divert them from the more important matters of gospel proclamation, the gathering and perfecting of the saints until Christ’s return.


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## Tripel (Jul 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> By the nature of public worship, imposition of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Mother’s Day, or Superbowl Sunday, upon Lord’s Day worship because of man invented influences deprives believers of Christian Liberty without warrant from scripture.



Can you articulate what it means for these man-made holidays to "impose" upon worship on the Lord's Day?


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 20, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> > By the nature of public worship, imposition of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Mother’s Day, or Superbowl Sunday, upon Lord’s Day worship because of man invented influences deprives believers of Christian Liberty without warrant from scripture.
> ...



Believers are commanded in scripture to assemble themselves together on the Lord’s Day.

Believers are commanded in scripture to be accountable to the authority of elders.

As the time and place of Lord’s Day public worship is a matter of circumstance “common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed” (WCF I:6), these circumstantial matters are rightly ordered by the elders.

Christians, being obligated to be present for stated Lord’s Day worship, have a reasonable expectation for said public worship to be according to the regulative principles of scripture, and not to impose upon them any unwarranted elements. Any man invented additions are a violation of their Christian liberty and an usurpation of authority by the elders.

While the scheduling and selection of praise, content of prayers, and reading of scripture may correspond to the themes and doctrines expounded in the sermon, based upon an effort to encompass the full scope of God’s salvific acts on behalf of his elect, the importation of a cultural, traditional, ecclesiastical, preferential calendar to predetermine the content of public worship is not warranted in scripture and is a violation of the Regulative Principle. Such a calendar is not circumstantial; it is a man invented, man pleasing, unwarranted “element” of worship.


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## Tripel (Jul 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Christians, being obligated to be present for stated Lord’s Day worship, have a reasonable expectation for said public worship to be according to the regulative principles of scripture, and not to impose upon them any unwarranted elements. Any man invented additions are a violation of their Christian liberty and an usurpation of authority by the elders.



Right, but what I'm trying to understand is at what point does a holiday become an "element" that is "imposed" upon worship.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 20, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> > Christians, being obligated to be present for stated Lord’s Day worship, have a reasonable expectation for said public worship to be according to the regulative principles of scripture, and not to impose upon them any unwarranted elements. Any man invented additions are a violation of their Christian liberty and an usurpation of authority by the elders.
> ...



When it is brought into, acknowledged, made a part, controls the content of public worship.


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## Tripel (Jul 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Glenn Ferrell said:
> ...



Interesting. Acknowledged? Is it a violation of the RPW to acknowledge what the current month is at some point during a worship service?


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 20, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> > Tripel said:
> ...



Of course, one may mention the day, moth, season, year, or recent lunar eclipse. Unique providential events may for pastoral reasons influence the themes or content of worship and preaching. _[Sentence deleted here by poster]_ When December the 25th fell on he Lord’s Day a few years ago, I mentioned why we were not celebrating the Christ Mass, as it was like an elephant in the room. But, man invented festivals do not control the themes or content of worship. You won’t find in our bulletin, Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, or Third Sunday in Advent, nor will these determine what we do on a particular Lord’s Day. I happened to preach on the Incarnation on June 14th, because for pastoral reasons I had determined to preach from the gospel of John at our quarterly communion services, and the text was John 1:1-18. Preaching on Psalm 24 last Lord’s Day evening, I had reason to mention the Ascension of Christ and his reception by the Ancient of Days in the heavenly court and our anticipation of his coming again. Even preaching Old Testament texts, the events of Christ’s life and redemption should continually be placed before one’s hearers, without regard to what season it may be, as one finds these in the text itself, considering the spiritual needs of the congregation.


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## Tripel (Jul 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> But, man invented festivals do not control the themes or content of worship. You won’t find in our bulletin, Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, or Third Sunday in Advent, nor will these determine what we do on a particular Lord’s Day.



Something has to determine what the theme or content of worship will be. How is it more fitting with the RPW for the pastor to choose a text and theme upon sheer preference than to choose a text and theme upon something that is culturally significant, such as a holiday?


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## toddpedlar (Jul 20, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> > But, man invented festivals do not control the themes or content of worship. You won’t find in our bulletin, Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, or Third Sunday in Advent, nor will these determine what we do on a particular Lord’s Day.
> ...



This is precisely the attitude that gives rise to annual Proverbs 31 sermons... 

To follow your advice, Pastors ought to be preaching a sermon each year relevant to golf on the four major tournament championship Sundays, an Indy-500 Sermon, Mothers, Fathers, Grandparents and Childrens' Days, Earth Day, etc., etc.... to pick texts as dictated by "culturally significant events" is irresponsible to say the least. 

Furthermore, to characterize the choices of a pastor who doesn't follow the church calendar (or guide his text-choice by other pagan cultural events), but who has other criteria for choosing has text as "sheer preference" is slanderous, quite frankly. I suggest you avoid it.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Jul 20, 2009)

What should our response be then to Calvin who celebrated the evangelical feast days of Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Ascension and Pentecost?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 20, 2009)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/calvins-christmas-observance-27446/


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## Kevin (Jul 21, 2009)

Confessor said:


> If man-instituted days of thanksgiving are permitted, what about them separates them from holidays such that the latter are forbidden to be instituted? And, secondly, are annual days of thanksgiving allowed to be made?
> 
> If the second question above is answered in the affirmative, then could not a celebrator of Christmas or Easter argue that such holidays are merely holidays thanking God for the Incarnation or for the atonement and resurrection? What about holidays makes them of a different nature than days of thanksgiving?
> 
> I have been convinced for a while that holidays are forbidden by the RPW, but I have been having a bit of trouble understanding how thanksgiving fits in with everything else.



They fit in fine as long as youremeber to only observe them when no one else in your culture might also be feeling thankfull...


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## Tripel (Jul 21, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> Tripel said:
> 
> 
> > Something has to determine what the theme or content of worship will be. How is it more fitting with the RPW for the pastor to choose a text and theme upon sheer preference than to choose a text and theme upon something that is culturally significant, such as a holiday?
> ...



I never suggested that culturally significant events _should_ be the standard for a text and theme. I asked why using such an event is less in keeping with the RPW than a pastor's preference. It's a question you never answered.
I'm not suggesting each week's sermon and scripture should be based on what's going on in the world, but instead trying to figure out why it's wrong to do so occassionally. Like I said, something has to determine what you do.



> Furthermore, to characterize the choices of a pastor who doesn't follow the church calendar (or guide his text-choice by other pagan cultural events), but who has other criteria for choosing has text as "sheer preference" is slanderous, quite frankly. I suggest you avoid it.



Slanderous? That's a reach. My pastor is currently going through the book of I Corinthians. Why is he doing so? Because he picked it. He did. I'm thrilled that we're studying this epistle, but the only reason we are doing so is that our pastor chose it. 
Now a couple months ago, our pastor took a one-week break from his study in Corinthians to address a topic that was culturally significant: the economy. A lot of people in our congregation have been affected, so he addressed it. 

So back to my question, why is it more in keeping with the RPW for a pastor to choose his own text because he wanted to work through a book, than for a pastor to choose his text because of a culturally significant event?


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## toddpedlar (Jul 21, 2009)

Daniel,

You said "sheer preference". That characterization has connotations that imply a whimsical personal preference, rather than a considered choice, which most faithful pastors certainly make. That is all I was pointing out. You may not have intended that reading, but that's how it came across to me at least - as a disparaging remark.

As for the consistency with the RPW of the practice of having an annual Mothers Day, Easter, Christmas, 4th of July, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, etc., sermon, as is common in some churches I'm familiar with, I'm not necessarily trying to address it. It does seem to me, though, that if annual secular events (like Mother's day, for instance, which is perhaps the most egregious example) are dictating the text, there is a big problem in my opinion. Not as awful a problem as in the case of the churches which refused to hold worship services when Christmas Day fell on the Lord's Day, but a problem nevertheless. Is it a problem with the RPW in particular? That's a good question that I'd have to think about some more.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 21, 2009)

Ordained ministers of the word have authority by virtue of their office to lead worship consisting of the warranted elements prescribed in God’s word. As part of that leadership, they may choose which Psalms are sung, scriptures read, what to say in prayers and what words to preach, provided all these are consistent with the whole of scripture and the ordination vows he took. Of course authority may be misused or badly used. Ruling elders are there to advise and guide. A wise and faithful pastor will diligently read and preach the whole counsel of God, considering the circumstances of the particular congregation and providential events impacting their lives. Experience shows, a systematic and consecutive reading and exposition of the scriptures will assist in these goals. Cultural, traditional and market influences and expectations do not. So called “holy” days give the impression of doing something more pious than on other Lord’s Days, while in reality there is no command or warrant to observe such. Rather, such observance detracts from the simplicity of the gospel. Faithful pastors and elders have authority to determine the circumstantial components of public worship “common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed” (WCF I:6). They may not impose new elements, or allow their decisions to be dictated by non-scriptural traditions. 

May one preach on the Incarnation and Resurrection narratives? Certainly. May the preacher do so on the Sundays coming near December 25th or the spring equinox? He may. But, is it wise to deviate from his ordinary systematic and consecutive exposition of the word and risk being caught up in the cultural and market hype called “Christmas” and “Easter,” which helps unbelievers feel sentimental and religious apart from the gospel? Then, one starts adding Advent wreaths, candles, evergreen trees in the place of worship, idolatrous manger scenes, passion plays, and sentimental preaching that sounds more like Dickens than the Bible. Probably will draw a crowd, please the C&E attenders, and make the pious feel warm fuzzies inside. But, is it being faithful to the gospel and worship commanded by God? But, deprive your congregation of these things they’ve come to expect and incur their wrath. Which shows their danger. Most Christians have come to identify such cultural piety with biblical Christianity. For that matter, so have many who regularly post on the Puritan Board, and don’t bother reading what the Westminster Divines and Puritans had to say of such matters.


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## Tripel (Jul 22, 2009)

Glenn,
I agree with you that a systematic exposition of the Bible is the best guideline to use when choosing a text and theme for the worship elements. But I don't see how the RPW shows it to be _wrong_ for a pastor to use an event or topic that is on the minds of the congregation (or the culture as a whole) to occassionally take a break from the regular study. 
I'm not talking about "holy" days here. I doubt anyone on the PB believes the church has actual "holy" days. You can bring out all types of examples of modern churches that take it too far, but that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm talking about focusing a worship service on the Incarnation during December, the Resurrection during the spring, or the Reformation during late October. I just don't buy that the RPW forbids such. 



> Then, one starts adding Advent wreaths, candles, evergreen trees in the place of worship, idolatrous manger scenes, passion plays, and sentimental preaching that sounds more like Dickens than the Bible.



I agree that there are problems with passion plays and perhaps manger scenes, but it's not wrong to decorate according to the season.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Jul 22, 2009)

Tripel said:


> Glenn,
> I agree with you that a systematic exposition of the Bible is the best guideline to use when choosing a text and theme for the worship elements. But I don't see how the RPW shows it to be _wrong_ for a pastor to use an event or topic that is on the minds of the congregation (or the culture as a whole) to occassionally take a break from the regular study.
> I'm not talking about "holy" days here. I doubt anyone on the PB believes the church has actual "holy" days. You can bring out all types of examples of modern churches that take it too far, but that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm talking about focusing a worship service on the Incarnation during December, the Resurrection during the spring, or the Reformation during late October. I just don't buy that the RPW forbids such.
> 
> ...



Why bring anything into the place of worship which detracts from the worship of God and the presentation of the gospel? Is God's word and what he commanded not enough? 

I hold the same position regarding flags, civil religion, partisan politics, or bag pipes encroaching on public worship and preaching.

While I agree the RPW does not prohibit a minister from reading and preaching the Incarnation or Resurrection narratives on any Lord’s Day, to do so in close approximation and tied to seasonal & cultural religiosity may tend to encourage superstition and identification of saving faith in Christ with sentimentality and a schmaltzy pseudo-gospel.

As late October and early November are merely times for historical remembrance of significant Reformation events and the recovery of the gospel, this is not quiet the same as overdone papal-pagan “holy” days, no different than acknowledging the birth date of Calvin. I don’t see the culture or department stores gearing up for “Reformation Day” the way they do for Christmas or Easter. A Reformation conference or preaching on the Solas, which is merely remembering how the gospel was preserved in God’s providence, is not the same as candlelight services and Advent wreaths.

Of course, deal with significant providential events on the minds of believers. But, if Christmas or Easter are mentioned in their conventional calendar contexts, seems better to explain why gift giving, good will, yule logs, warm sentiments, pretty clothes, eggs and bunnies do not save or make one a better follower of Christ.

As Calvin says our hearts are “idol factories,” better to guard against man made religious additions to the worship of God, remembering the Larger Catechism, which our officers affirm but often forget:

*Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
A. *The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him: as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.

*Q. 109. What sins are forbidden in the second commandment?
A.* The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.​


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