# The Denominational Mess



## N. Eshelman (Feb 19, 2008)

I hold to the Westminster Standards. My denomination has a couple of amendments to it much like most of the US Presbyterian churches. This is true of Reformed churches as well. 

Considering the current mess that we are in (hundreds of P&R denominations and no established church) what should be our principles for uniting with other denominations? 

I believe that when Jesus prayed for unity he meant it (Jn. 17). Should we be actively seeking to merge some of our P&R churches? Or should we allow the micro-presbyterian mess to continue? 

Personally, I believe that considering the current mess- breaking off to form new micro-presbyterian churches is schismatic and sinful- but how do we stop this while maintaining the truthfulness of a pure confession?


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 19, 2008)

Oy!

Seriously, the best answer, for my taste, is to renew interest in the Confessions - not for their own sake per se - but because men are convinced they're Biblical.

I'm sitting this one out for a bit until I have the energy for it because this is one of those things that I can advocate from a number of different angles. Most simply, however, I wish men and women would take the time to reflect upon what they're losing when they abandon the Confessions. Most of the abandonment today is really not deliberately thought out unfortunately. A lot of it really stems from not being deliberate about what we believe and then making decisions in light of it. I'm not saying knowledge of the Confessions is a cure all but surely ignorance of what they teach (and especially _why_ they teach it) is at root of much of the problem.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 19, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> I hold to the Westminster Standards. My denomination has a couple of amendments to it much like most of the US Presbyterian churches. This is true of Reformed churches as well.
> 
> Considering the current mess that we are in (hundreds of P&R denominations and no established church) what should be our principles for uniting with other denominations?
> 
> ...



What amendments to the Westminster Standards has the RPCNA adopted? Or are you referring to the Testimony?


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## MW (Feb 19, 2008)

William Symington:



> Rising above the little jealousies of sectarian rivalry, laying aside all personal asperities, let us show a readiness to meet, on the arena of frank and friendly consultation, brethren of other denominations, and to discuss with them our points of difference in a spirit of Christian candour and charity. Surely the friends of the Redeemer are not to be for ever separated. The reign of disunion is not to be perpetual. “There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all. There is one body and one Spirit.” And, believing as we do that these statements of Holy Writ are to receive a visible as well as an invisible fulfilment, we must hold professing Christians bound to use all proper means for bringing this about.
> 
> Is it not more to be desired that the Churches of the Reformation, holding by the Westminster Standards, should, like rational and moral creatures, come to unite on the basis of truth, by the blessing of God, on the scriptural use of mutual consultation, explanation, advice, and prayer; than that, like insensate masses, they should wait to be melted by the fire, and welded together by the hammer, of Divine judgments? That these meetings to commemorate the men and the doings of former days may result in a closer union of Christians, must be the fervent desire of every enlightened friend of the Redeemer. No one who wishes well to the glory of Christ or the good of Zion, can derive satisfaction from thinking that the dissensions and divisions of modern times are to be much longer perpetuated. Let us, then, crucify and repress the spirit of party strife; let us feed the flame of that sacred affection which many waters cannot quench, neither can the floods drown; let us stand prepared to take to our hearts, in fraternal embrace, all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; let us converse closely and oft with those predictions which foretell a coming period of unity and peace; and let us drink daily and deeply into the spirit of the intercession, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.”


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## Pilgrim (Feb 19, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> I hold to the Westminster Standards. My denomination has a couple of amendments to it much like most of the US Presbyterian churches. This is true of Reformed churches as well.
> 
> Considering the current mess that we are in (hundreds of P&R denominations and no established church) what should be our principles for uniting with other denominations?
> 
> ...



There are many reasons for the divisions. Many of them are historical. Others are rooted in different practices. 

NAPARC and each church's various committees on ecumenicity are efforts at fellowship and possible union. There have been mergers in the past and there are ongoing talks and fraternal relations between various confessional Presbyterian and Reformed churches both in North America and abroad. 

There are ongoing talks now between the United Reformed Church in North America (URCNA) and the Canadian Reformed (CanRef) church, both of whom subscribe to the Three Forms of Unity. 

The OPC has had votes to vote itself out of existence three times. A merger in 1975 with the old Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod (now part of the PCA) was approved by the OPC but rejected by the RPCES, probably because they didn't want to refight the battles of the 1930's (BPC split) and 1940's (the Gordon Clark and related controversies) since the RPCES was a generally a broader church and the OPC has always been regarded by some as nitpickers. In 1981 the OPC voted to join and be received by the PCA but not enough PCA presbyteries approved it, although they did absorb the RPCES at that time. This gave the PCA much more of a nationwide as opposed to a southern presence and also gave it its denominational college and seminary. In 1986 the PCA approved a merger with the OPC but the OPC narrowly rejected it. Some think that the fact that the vote took place 50 years after the formation of the OPC in 1936 had something to do with it. At that time some of the more outspoken advocates for union with the PCA left and joined the PCA. 

Generally worship in the PCA is more diverse than the OPC. For example, "praise and worship" is much more prevalent. (There are reasons for this as well, but that may be better left for another thread.) Some would also point to a denominational structure that is seen by many as increasingly bureaucratic as opposed to the deliberative General Assemblies of the OPC. Of course with the RPCNA you have exclusive psalmody, which I understand none of the other NAPARC churches hold to although they may all have EP congregations. I also am of the understanding that the RPCNA is the only one of the NAPARC churches that subscribes to the original WCF, although the ARP language on the magistrate is closer to the spirit of the original than the 1788 revision adopted by the PCA and OPC is. The ARP has adopted the two Arminianizing chapters from the 1903 PCUSA revision and also traces their history in the USA back to the mid 1700's. (The RCUS, another NAPARC denomination, dates to 1725.) These are just some of the issues that would have to be resolved in the minds of a sufficient majority before any union could take place.

There is at least one example of a church that subscribes to both the Three Forms of Unity and the Westminster Standards: The Reformed Churches of New Zealand (RCNZ). This article on the RCNZ by my pastor, Rev. Jack Sawyer, may be of interest.


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## N. Eshelman (Feb 19, 2008)

The RPCNA holds to the original Standards but has some revisions in the Testimony. 

We may be the only NAPARC church that does not use instruments (The Presbyterian Reformed Church is attempting to join). 

There are other Psalm singers though. The Heritage Reformed and the Free Reformed and the German Reformed are all Psalm singers as well. 

Personally I think getting to the table for discussion is the first thing. When we realize that these men are our fellow-laborers and not our enemies- we have made a beginning. My experience at Puritan Seminary has been sweet Reformed ecumenical fellowship. I know that the men who are going into ministry from that seminary will have a mutual respect and love for the ministries of other P&R denominations. 

I have such a desire to see the Lord bring us back under one banner. Pray for the Bride- that she be not divided.


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