# Doctrines of grace - hurting or helping your church growth?



## Andres (Jun 14, 2010)

This is a break-off from another thread in which someone mentioned that since their church has embraced the doctrines of grace and reformed theology, the church has gotten smaller. Someone else mentioned that many reformed churches seem to be benefiting from their reformed status and attendance is increasing very well. I was curious if either of these categories fit your church - do you find people flee your church because of reformed theology or are people embracing it and flocking _to_ your church because of reformed theology? Please explain what you think is the reason for this and do you think it should change? 

For my church personally, I believe being reformed definitely hurts us. We are the only reformed church in a city of 150,000. However, the Church of Christ and Baptists have a stranglehold on Abilene. Lots of people go to church here in town, but it seems to be very cultural or the popular thing to do, rather than the biblical thing to do. So i guess I am making the excuse that for us it's geographical but I don't really have a clue.

Edit: As it was pointed out to me, perhaps "growth" isn't the best way to phrase what I mean. I am specifically asking about how being reformed affects your attendance, however this should in no way be construed to mean that a larger church is automatically better than a smaller one. I think we would all agree that a church that is faithful to the Word and sacraments is the utmost priority and should be sought above everything else.


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## Calvin87 (Jun 14, 2010)

Well, I am new to this site, but am eager to jump in and discuss your topic. First and foremost, according to the Westminster confession of faith concerning the Holy Scriptures:

X. _The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture._ Thus, with little argument we can agree that the scriptures undoubtedly support our view of the doctrines of Grace. And because our religious establishments and doctrines need to be accurate with scripture, we must teach what scripture says about it.

We as reformed thinkers recognize the doctrine of Grace as fundamental in maintaining our correct relationship with our heavenly father. It is also the primary stepping stone to understanding total depravity. Without the doctrines of Grace, we would all be Armenians and in a state of heresy. Not to mention that we would be guilty of fallacy in our attempt to further our knowledge of GOD.

In short, we cannot separate ourselves from reformed thinking. If the organized reformed faith became unyoked from the doctrine of Grace it would cease to be a reformed establishment, the reformed thinkers would simply leave your church, and you would experience an increase in non-reformed thinking leading to fallacy. And once again Christians would split off and create new denominations in which to serve God in a manner that they see fit in a biblical fashion. So the question then becomes: Do we abandoned our reformed views for more church participation? Or do we hold to our reformed views and maintain a healthy perspective of God and our relationships with him? Believe you me, there are more than enough Armenian/unreformed churches in the world. If the un-reformed thinker is truly offended with a church that does not meet his or her standard concerning doctrine, they are free to walk down the street to an establishment that does. Reformed thinkers are not so capable of just heading to the next reformed establishment. And it goes without saying that a reformed thinker cannot thrive in an environment where he or she is constantly having to justify the faith which they hold to. 

I think it is safe to say that church participation comes second to Biblical accuracy.

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

P.S. Reformed thinkers have always existed in small pockets, in smaller churches. Even in the midst of the Protestant Reformation. 

In Christ

~Calvin


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## Herald (Jun 14, 2010)

Becoming Reformed has most definitely hurt our attendance, but there are mitigating circumstances to consider. We were planted as a Arminian-leaning Baptist church about ten years ago. We began moving towards Reformed theology about seven years ago. Slowly but surely we lost members over the Calvinism issue. We've had people visit our church thinking we are a typical Baptist church. Once they found out that we're a confessional Baptist church they've left. Like I said in the other thread, "it is what it is."


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## Herald (Jun 14, 2010)

Joshua said:


> The doctrines of Grace can *never* hurt church growth, since it is the Lord Who grows the church and this, via the appointed means of Word & Sacrament (which will include the Doctrines of Grace). The problem is our understanding of "growth." We need never define growth the way the world defines it. Give me a church of 1+ Reformed families who strive to be excellent in their callings, serve their fellow church folk and neighbors, pray for the Confessional ministry of their pastor and elders, over a megachurch of thousands of pop-Christianity people any day.



Josh,

Notice that I used the word attendance, not growth, for the very reasons you articulated.


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## Michael Doyle (Jun 14, 2010)

Many from my area seeking a truly reformed church seem to eventually make their way to Cornerstone. It is truly exciting.


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## Andres (Jun 14, 2010)

Joshua said:


> The doctrines of Grace can *never* hurt church growth, since it is the Lord Who grows the church and this, via the appointed means of Word & Sacrament (which will include the Doctrines of Grace). The problem is our understanding of "growth." We need never define growth the way the world defines it. Give me a church of 1+ Reformed families who strive to be excellent in their callings, serve their fellow church folk and neighbors, pray for the Confessional ministry of their pastor and elders, over a megachurch of thousands of pop-Christianity people any day.


 
Josh, I agree with you and I apologize for my poor choice of using the word "growth" without defining it. I did use the word attendance in the poll questions. For the record, we are a church of about 10 families, but we are blessed to have a pastor who is faithful to the scriptures. I love my church and wouldn't trade it for anything so I hope it didn't come across like I was complaining that our church is too small or that it is lacking something since we don't have hundreds of people. That is most certainly not the case at all.


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## christiana (Jun 15, 2010)

Initially it hurt attendance as when the doctrines of grace were first introduced there was a mass exodus by many angry folk. However, many of those who left have returned and many more have come as well after listening to our pastor on the radio and being hungry for a church that clings to the truth and expository preaching. Some of those who left at first needed to leave if they would not submit to the truth of scripture so the leaving is not always a bad thing.


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## CharlieJ (Jun 15, 2010)

Unless the church is self-consciously catering to the culture (seeker-sensitive), I doubt that the stated theology of a church in itself is one of the more significant factors in attendance. I would list them somewhat like this:

1. The general "Christianness" of the Church's region
2. The Church's affiliation as compared to the dominant denomination in that region (Huh? What's an Anglican?)
3. The pulpit abilities and charismatic leadership of the pastor
4. The amount of effort spent specifically on outreach

I think theology probably falls below those in terms of overall effect. Here's when I think theology does negatively correlate with church attendance. When the church wears its theology - and by that I mean its distinguishing characteristics - out on its sleeve and obnoxiously flashes it in visitors' faces. I know people who, upon their first time attending a church, were asked what they thought about homeschooling, breast-feeding(!), Calvinism, Bible versions, etc. Most people can tell when they keep getting suspicious glances from church members. If we can think of people on a spiritual maturity scale of 0-10, some churches have rather precise (and eccentric) ideas about what constitutes 10, and their goal seems to be making sure no one below an 8 come in and tarnishes the congregation. The result is an ever-shrinking church bemoaning the apostasy of our lukewarm age.


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## Jack K (Jun 15, 2010)

The poll question and the thread title ask two different questions. I'd say preaching and teaching the doctrines of grace has helped church attendance. There are many people tired of moralism for whom the grace of the gospel is a huge draw. However, if the church were to go strictly confessionally Reformed, I suspect that might bring attendance down.


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## TheDow (Jun 15, 2010)

I wouldn't know if it's hurt or helped us. My wife, several friends, and I ended up attending and joining our church BECAUSE they were reformed and taught the doctrines of grace. We were fed up with the broad evangelical church we were attending, when one of the pastors suggested I shouldn't pray with my girlfriend because it "was dangerous and fostered intimacy", and also when he taught if we were confused about the meaning of the word "blessed", we should just know that it means "lucky". It was a breath of fresh air to hear the Scriptures taught consistently and faithfully.

Having said that, we have not increased much in attendance since then.


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## JBaldwin (Jun 15, 2010)

I've seen it go both ways. In one church I attended, the adult Sunday school teacher started teaching the doctrines of grace. Before he started teaching doctrines of grace, the class had 5 or 6 in attendance. Within 6 weeks, there was standing room only. Oddly enough, the pastor of the church called this teacher up on the phone one day to find out what he was doing to get such a great attendance. When the SS teacher told the pastor what he was teaching, he kicked the teacher out and took over the class. Within a couple of weeks, attendance dropped back to 5 or 6. 

In another church I attended, the pastor started teaching the doctrines of grace, attendance dropped, and the board of elders ran the pastor off. 

Who can say how God's Spirit works?


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## Curt (Jun 15, 2010)

In 2006, at a time when I was away on a mission trip (isn't that always the time to attack the pastor?), a petition was circulated in our congregation to "vote on the termination of the pastor." Among the offending actions and beliefs of the pastor (me), were, using Desiring God Sunday School materials.

Stated on the petition regarding the doctrinal departures of the pastor is this:
Among the departures are the following doctrines:

The belief that people are regenerate (born again) before they have saving faith.
The belief that "faith is not the channel for justification," that is to say, that man does not receive faith by choosing to put their faith in the saving work of Just Christ, but that they receive it by God's sovereign choice and then become aware that they are regenerate.
Holding to the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

Obviously this caused a lot of turmoil and trouble in the congregation. This group went around to people's homes to get them to sign the petition. Eventually that group left, but not quietly. They still tell unflattering and untrue stories in the (very small) community. Our congregation has fallen to low numbers, but the core group is dedicated and faithful.


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## JBaldwin (Jun 15, 2010)

Curt, I'm sorry that happened to you. The Sunday school teacher I mentioned above was not teaching "Desiring God" material, but it was that book which woke him. At the time he was going through the scriptures teaching doctrines of grace, he was also passing out copies of "Desiring God" to anyone who was interested.


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## Scott1 (Jun 15, 2010)

We have no idea how God will use His Word in a given circumstance.

The Word says of itself that it will unite, divide, comfort, reprove, refresh, offend. It will unite us in the bond of love, and will divide even close families.

As God's Creatures, we have no right to tell God to change His revealed will to what we like.

We have every right to ask our Sovereign Creator, to change our rebellious and insolent hearts toward His revealed truth.

In fact, we are commanded to make it our priority in this life to do so.


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