# The justice of God



## benson83 (Oct 28, 2008)

In Max Lucado's book, 3:16, he writes, "The fact that we know what injustice is testifies to the fact that God exists."

Now, I am having a hard time agreeing with this statement. The reason is that what we consider just is not comparable to what is God's justice. In fact, God is completely just and therefore there is no injustice in God. So, if we feel injustice, it is not from God.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 

In fact, I would say that there is no such thing as injustice in the sight of God. Since, everything we would consider unjust would be just to God. So, then how can knowing injustice reveal to us God? I understand that everything in creation reveals God, but to state that injustice is a specific way of revealing God does not seem right to me. 

What do you guys think of this? Am I wrong to believe what I believe? Where can I get more information on this topic?


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## Kim G (Oct 28, 2008)

My guess is that he means something like this:

If people have a sense of justice (what is right and what is wrong, what is fair in this life and what is not fair), where did they get that sense of justice from? It must come from God.

Many people say "I can do whatever I want because there is no right and wrong." But if someone kills their spouse or steals their car, they suddenly have a sense of being wronged. "That was injustice, and they're gonna pay." Where does that sudden morality come from? Probably from a God-given conscience.


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## Iconoclast (Oct 28, 2008)

Kim G said:


> My guess is that he means something like this:
> 
> If people have a sense of justice (what is right and what is wrong, what is fair in this life and what is not fair), where did they get that sense of justice from? It must come from God.
> 
> Many people say "I can do whatever I want because there is no right and wrong." But if someone kills their spouse or steals their car, they suddenly have a sense of being wronged. "That was injustice, and they're gonna pay." Where does that sudden morality come from? Probably from a God-given conscience.



Benson83,
I think Kim G has given a good response here. Without knowing the context of Max Lucado's statement, we can know that God as creator gives meaning to meaning.
He alone defines all of life and He alone can give the proper understanding of , life, death, sin, redemption. He does that in the revelation of Himself in his Holy word. Psalm 19, Psalm 119 and Job 38/39 go a long way to explaining this to us.
As Kim G indicated conscience is God given. Romans 1and 2 leave all men without excuse and responsible before Him.
To find more detailed explanations you could look in any systematic theology book under the justice of God, and compare what you read there to what and how Max Lucado commented on it.
Here is a part of section 11 fromBoyce's abstract of systematic theology;



> CHAPTER XI
> JUSTICE OF GOD
> 
> By justice is meant that rectitude of character which leads to the treatment of others in strict accordance with their deserts.
> ...


 here is a partial quote from JL.Dagg


> In the moral government of God, men are regarded as moral and as sentient beings, and the amount of their enjoyments is regulated with reference to their moral character. The precise adaptation of this is the province of justice. In the blindness of human depravity, men claim enjoyments as a natural right, irrespective of their moral character and conduct. They reject the moral government of God, and seek happiness in their own way. This is their rebellion, and in this the justice of God opposes them. This is the attribute which fills them with terror, and arrays omnipotence against them. The moral government of God must be overthrown, and the monarch of the universe driven from his high seat of authority, or there is no hope of escape for the sinner. He would gladly rush into the vast storehouse of enjoyments which infinite goodness has provided and claim them as his own, and riot on them at pleasure; but the sword of justice guards the entrance. In opposition to his desires, the government of God is firmly established, and justice and judgment are the habitation of his throne. Even in the present world, the manifestations of this government are everywhere visible; and it is apparent that there is a God, a God of justice, who judgeth in the earth; but the grand exhibition is reserved for the judgment of the great day. Conscience now, in God's stead, often pronounces sentence, though its voice is unheeded; but the sentence from the lips of the Supreme Judge cannot be disregarded, and will fix the sinner's final doom.
> 
> Although there are hearts so hard as to be unaffected by a sense of God's justice, a right view of this awful and glorious attribute inspires that fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom. An abiding assurance that a just God sits on the throne of the universe, is indispensable to the proper exercise of piety.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 28, 2008)

Benson,

I think you need to be careful to assume that total depravity implies that men don't know what is good. Even Christ uses analogies of wicked judges and pagan parents who know what justice is and know how to give good things to their family. God's justice is not so transcendent that it is "other worldly" and we have no comprehension of it because we are creatures and He is the Creator.

In fact, it is because we are His creatures that we have a sense of justice. Men certainly suppress truth and the standard of Truth but the suppression is incomplete. In spite of our best efforts to supress God, part of man's condemnation before Him is that we use the gifts endowed in our Creation but do not glorify God as the fountainhead of them.

Now, I wouldn't be reading Max Lucado for much theological depth but his statement is accurate. One cannot account for justice apart from God. An atheist will use the "organ" of justice all the time saying that God is not just for commanding the ban on the Canaanites but their spiritual blindness does not allow they to see how foolish they are in raising their hand against the God that gave them the sense of justice that they are perverting. 

It certainly makes no sense to be angry about what amounts to matter in motion, which is all one is left with apart from God. The only consistent atheist would be the one who recognizes that there is no meaning, logic, or justice apart from any purpose or standard. Every time they open their foolish mouths to insult their Creator for their sense of justice they reveal that they don't really believe their own nonsense.


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## benson83 (Oct 29, 2008)

Yes, I agree with the idea that God is completely just and good and righteous. However, my issue is not with creatures knowing his justice but the injustice in this world. If we feel that the world is unjust, how does that point to God? Does that not just point back to man? 

A.W.Tozer in his book Knowledge of the Holy says,
"Everything in the universe is good to the degree it conforms to the nature of God and evil as it fails to do so. God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself. " 

So, does that not seem that if we fail to see God's justice, it is only pointing to the fallenness of man? To me it seems that saying, "Injustice points to God" is like saying, "Sin points to God" God is neither unjust or sinful. Again, my issue is not with justice, but injustice.


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## Puritan Sailor (Oct 29, 2008)

benson83 said:


> Yes, I agree with the idea that God is completely just and good and righteous. However, my issue is not with creatures knowing his justice but the injustice in this world. If we feel that the world is unjust, how does that point to God? Does that not just point back to man?
> 
> A.W.Tozer in his book Knowledge of the Holy says,
> "Everything in the universe is good to the degree it conforms to the nature of God and evil as it fails to do so. God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself. "
> ...



The point the others were trying to make above is that you cannot know what injustice is unless you have some standard of justice by which to measure it. For someone who does not believe in God, for them to speak out against injustice is inconsistent because in a materialist world there is no justice. All that matters is survival of the fittest. So for an unbeliever to complain about injustice, shows that he deep down really believes that there is a moral standard through which we make moral judgments and are then able to identify injustice when we see it. He is living in God's world, borrowing from his created innate sense of justice, even though he doesn't acknowledge the God who gave him that sense of justice. It proves that God does in fact exist and has created us in His image.


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## Kim G (Oct 29, 2008)

benson83 said:


> saying, "Injustice points to God" is like saying, "Sin points to God".


Sin does point us to God in this way:

-In order for there to be sin, there must be a Lawgiver to sin against.

-God has given a law that even unbelievers understand in their conscience.

-When they transgress the law, they are sinning.

-If there is no God, and no law, then they could do whatever they wanted and it wouldn't be sin.

-But since they do wrong and call it sin, they must have transgressed the Law of some greater being--God.


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## Stomata leontôn (Oct 29, 2008)

Injustice means that there is justice, meaning that there is a moral order to the universe.

The a-theist believes that the universe spontaneously created itself and that it is without moral meaning and random. Contrariwise, the theistic view says that viewing the universe as randomly organized is not only patently silly but that that there is a moral organization as well; the cosmos is structured under physical laws and moral laws, too.

The very idea of justice means that there is a moral order and a moral order points to God. If injustice exists there must be justice, so if there is injustice, then there is a moral order and a cosmic Judge.




benson83 said:


> In Max Lucado's book, 3:16, he writes, "The fact that we know what injustice is testifies to the fact that God exists."
> 
> Now, I am having a hard time agreeing with this statement. The reason is that what we consider just is not comparable to what is God's justice. In fact, God is completely just and therefore there is no injustice in God. So, if we feel injustice, it is not from God.
> 
> ...


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