# Not a Dispensationalist



## Organgrinder (Sep 2, 2012)

A while back someone started a thread about the difference that being a Calvinist makes in one's life. 

What difference should not being a Dispensationalist make in one's life? 

I am seeking ways to explain why I have abandoned Disp. for Covenant theology.


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## nicnap (Sep 2, 2012)

For starters, it makes for a unified view of God's plan, as seen throughout Scripture. It does not disjoint and fracture his people, but rather shows a beautifully unified purpose of salvation.


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## Frosty (Sep 2, 2012)

Why? Hopefully you've abandoned one and embraced the other because one is biblically accurate and the other is not!


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## Jack K (Sep 2, 2012)

I can start with a few...

-Generally (because I don't wish to attribute to all dispensationalists views merely held by many of them), a dispensationalist is going to see large chunks of the Bible as not applying to him except indirectly. It can't help but change the seriousness with which he approaches those parts of God's Word.

-Generally, a dispensationalist is going to have a lesser sense of the "already" of God's Kingdom and a greater view of the "not yet." It makes him more of a pessimist about what God's is doing in the world today. Why get involved when it's all heading downhill anyway between now and the rapture... when you'll be leaving? God is planning to let you escape from the world rather than redeeming the world.

-Generally, a dispensationalist is less likely to see the salvation of the church (including his own salvation) as God's crowning desire, covenantal commitment, and purpose in history. He will be less awed by the gospel, less filled with gratitude, and less thrilled at his place in the redemption story.

I know dispensationalists who don't fit these molds, but generally I think this is what happens.


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## earl40 (Sep 2, 2012)

The main difference is that generally a dispensationalist believes their faith is the reason God saves them. Our faith is not part of The Gospel but a result of Jesus dying for them. Once one believes in the L in TULIP one will realize that the reason one is saved is based solely on God's love, which In my most humble opinion is a truth that is so liberating I want to shout with joy.


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## arapahoepark (Sep 2, 2012)

You're not always concerned with when is Gog and Magog going to attack Israel....
I used to be (still kind of am) the rapture forums, it's where I get some news lol However they see everything happening now and even though they condemn newspaper exegesis, they always do it.


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## py3ak (Sep 2, 2012)

I think there are many things that it helps with, some directly, some indirectly. On an indirect note, I haven't been able to figure out why, but few dispensationalists seem to have a really clear and sound understanding of sanctification.

More directly, rejecting dispensationalism enables one to receive the comfort of the book of Revelation more readily. It frees one from apprehension that others have been raptured and one left behind, and clears up tribulational nightmares.
It also puts one in a position to recognize that God's people are not spared temporal calamities anymore than the ungodly are: the promise is of preservation from spiritual evil. This can actually contribute to less pessimism and anxiety over the state of affairs, as our focus is withdrawn from government oppression, etc., and lead to greater sympathy for those being persecuted for their faith, who are already in "great tribulation". By placing our hope firmly on God's actual promises it means our hope is less likely to be deferred and our hearts made sick when we apparently see the promise fail. (It is a great source of discouragement in any area when a false exegesis has made us believe that God promised something which then fell through.)
By enabling one to see the Bible as having one coherent story line it makes clearer how all things are centered and summed up in Christ, and gives us a clearer sense of our place within that whole unfolding history.
I suspect that the dispensational hermeneutic prevents the just appreciation of much that is in Scripture, even when it doesn't directly relate to those matters; and as collateral damage, it intereferes with recognizing and enjoying some aspects of literary skill, or connecting with some of the deepest insights from our forebears (e.g., Luther's remarks about being theologians of the cross vs. theologians of glory).


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## a mere housewife (Sep 2, 2012)

I think the main difference is that -- as my pastor exhorted us this morning -- when we read our Bibles, what we see is the Lamb of God, from Genesis to Revelation. I never understood the book of Revelation was about Christ and His triumph in history until after I was married, for I'd always been taught to see it in light of a dispensational hermeneutic. And while that was only one book, it made a tremendous and even a shattering impact to read it for myself (which I had been terrified to do) and find my Savior -- and my Savior reigning -- and His people victorious in His love.


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## Peairtach (Sep 2, 2012)

arap said:


> You're not always concerned with when is Gog and Magog going to attack Israel....
> I used to be (still kind of am) the rapture forums, it's where I get some news lol However they see everything happening now and even though they condemn newspaper exegesis, they always do it.



At the end of the world after Israel i.e. believing Jews and Gentiles have flourished and filled the Land i.e. the whole Earth.

Ezekiel's vision is a commentary on John's in Revelation 20.

1.A Massive Resurrection



> And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20:4-5)





> Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:12)



2.A Period of Blessedness



> And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Rev 20:3)





> Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (Ezek 37:23-25)



3.A Massive Apostasy



> And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.(Rev 20:7-8)





> Ezekiel 38-39.





Also see Patrick Fairbairn's commentary on Ezekiel.


*Mark*


> What difference should not being a Dispensationalist make in one's life?



A major important plus point of moving away from dispensationalism is that you can embrace a high covenantal view of the Sabbath, which dispensationalists tend to not have.


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## Scott1 (Sep 2, 2012)

The first part of dispensationalism as it came from Darby and through Mr. Schofield's Bible notes was termed that because of "dispensations," the view, implicit, that God did redemption in substantially different ways at different periods of time.

Said another way,

It implied that "dispensations" were "economies" where impliedly at least, God did redemption OTHER THAN by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is serious misreading of Scripture.

The whole of the Old Testament looked forward to the promised coming Messiah, Redeemer Jesus Christ.
The New Testament looks back at the promised risen Savior, Redeemer Jesus Christ.

To even imply that it EVER has been done another way is most harmful because it undermines the centrality of God's plan to redeem His people.... from the very beginning.

This is why in communions that hold or assume a dispensational framework- 90% of the teaching tends to be New Testament, maybe 10% Old Testament. The latter being imagined as not really relevant, or merely base for "unfulfilled" prophecy speculation because of "unfulfilled" dispensations.

This aspect of dispensationalism has fallen by the wayside in our generation, and few dispensationalists (who know they are) advocate this anymore.

That's good (though logical remnants are still there).

Now, it is mostly understood to mean there is a separate plan of redemption for those with some Jewish ancestry versus everyone else (or as they assert, "Israel" and "the Church").

While there is a grain of truth in that, in the whole, that premise is neither logical, nor biblical.

May we see the day it too unravels among popular imagination, and among His people!


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## arapahoepark (Sep 2, 2012)

Peairtach said:


> arap said:
> 
> 
> > You're not always concerned with when is Gog and Magog going to attack Israel....
> ...



I hope I did not give the impression I was a Dispensational still, I am not though still a member at the forums. I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ, but...sometimes...wacko in regards to all the events going on and surely not reformed and believe you can be a carnal Christian as py3ak touched at above.


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## Peairtach (Sep 2, 2012)

> I hope I did not give the impression I was a Dispensational still, I am not though still a member at the forums. I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ, but...sometimes...wacko in regards to all the events going on and surely not reformed and believe you can be a carnal Christian as py3ak touched at above.



No you didn't.

By the way take my scheme comparing Revelation 20 with Ezekiel 37-39 with a pinch of salt as some of these eschatalogical questions are difficult.


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## Andres (Sep 2, 2012)

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Dispensationalists tend to be antinomian since they don't believe the moral law is still binding upon Christians today.


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## TylerRay (Sep 2, 2012)

Someone who is not a dispensationalist can pray Psalm 119. That is, he can wholeheartedly embrace God's law as the rule of life God has given to the believer because He loves him.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Sep 2, 2012)

It has already been said, but thank God for you (and me) not being enslaved to an unhealthy fixation on a tiny strip of dirt in Asia as the all consuming most momentous issue of all times. An even greater commission than the Great Commission for many of them is to support getting Jews back in Palestine and setting up their Christless kingdom (which is against what their theology even says - it dictates that redeemed Jews will come back [Hosea 14; Amos 9:11-cc; Micah 3:8-cc, Zech. 14:1-cc] not the mainly secular or erstwhile Pharisaical/Karballical short that are there now. But, they'll take what they can get. Christians are not even allowed to evangelize there, as strict as the law in some Muslim countries! The few Christians there are mainly Palestinian.) Christ's kingdom far exceeds this in size, glory, focus and purpose. The apostles and early Christians after Pentecost didn't see it as all that important - they were willing to sell "holy land," clearly not concerned with any eschatalogical importance: Acts 4:37 37 "Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." Those are the same who felt free to go literally and spiritually "outside the camp," (the accursed place in Hebrew understanding) where Christ was murdered, Hebrews 13:13, leaving everything historically and culturally they'd known as they were being persecuted and exiled by their physical kin. Christ would visit that idolatrous nation shortly after he encouraged the Christians to "flee; (Matt 24:15)" speaking to the false Jews he warned them that he would be destroying "your house" Matt. 23:38 (the temple, note- it was not "His" house anymore) through the instrumentality of the Roman hordes. 70 AD brought all of their house crashing down forever. Matt.24:2.

You don't have to obsess over diverting your country's monetary and military resources to 'make God's promises come true,' waging unBiblical depopulations on indigenous peoples, threatening the self determination of various Middle Eastern states and intervening therein, and propping up one of the most wicked nations on the planet, secular/culturally "Jewish" Israel as it carries out its godless end game.

You are free to not obsess with/over the rapture of the saints and cars crashing and being abandoned.

You won't have to desire to see the better part of Hebrews living in the great tribulation cut down and their blood staining the world.

You don't have to comb endlessly through church history to find support for your position up until the 1800's and the foundation of the Plymouth Brethren. (Good rule of thumb if it is "new" in theology, it is false!)

You are finally free to take the Bible literally - yes, the oft incorrectly ascribed slander made against covenant theologians. You can take Daniel literally without inserting a fictitious "parenthesis" for a "church age." The flow of redemptive history is allowed to literally continue. You don't have to wait for God to fulfill his "land" promises to Israel, as some dispensational writers use as their slam dunk argument - "God promised Israel x amount of Palestine, but they never got it all- God will fulfill that later in the 'end times.'" False says Josh 11:23; 21:43-45.) Since this is an "eternal" covenant that God made with the "Jews" in Abraham/Israel to 1) save them, 2) give them "rest/land," 3) always have a "king" in their midst how wicked would God be to "postpone" or put a "parenthesis" in that promise, break it for almost a full two thousand years to date, and leave Abraham's/Israel's promise to smolder in ashes? His promises never fails! Image if dispensationalists allowed for their faulty hermeneutic to be applied to God's "eternal" covenant with Noah Gen. 9:15–16 or our promised eternal rest in heaven? "Well, I won't ever flood the earth again (Gen 9:11)...UNLESS I augment my covenant and decide to flood it for two thousand years in a 'postponement.'" Or, (1 Thessalonians 4:17) "yes and so we will ever be with the Lord...UNLESS I augment my covenant and decide to throw you out of My presence to be ruled by Satan for 2000 years in a 'parenthesis.'" I speak as a fool, to quote Paul. We know our covenant keeping God is not so but all his promises are "yes and amen" in Christ. Because in His eternal covenant (not various covenants,) we have salvation, rest, the land and a King all through the instrumentality of our Triune God!! “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an *everlasting *covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."


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## Andres (Sep 2, 2012)

Oh and let's not forget these: 

View attachment 3058


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## sevenzedek (Sep 2, 2012)

Organgrinder said:


> A while back someone started a thread about the difference that being a Calvinist makes in one's life.
> 
> What difference should not being a Dispensationalist make in one's life?
> 
> I am seeking ways to explain why I have abandoned Disp. for Covenant theology.



You don't ever have to fear losing your salvation.

Those troubling passages in Hebrews 6 and 10 make more sense.

You get to improve your own baptism by baptizing your children.

You get to read more William Gurnall.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 2, 2012)

AlexanderHenderson1647 said:


> You are free to not obsess with/over the rupture...I'm sorry, I meant the "rapture" (a phony concept and a fabricated word, alien to Scripture) of the saints and cars crashing and being abandoned.



The other points you made are well taken, but I think this part about the rapture is overstated.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin word "raptus," which meant to be carried off or snatched away. Its meaning, at least until the mid-19th century, was almost exactly the same as the Greek ἁρπάζω in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (which means more or less "take away by force"). In French it tended to take on the meaning of emotional ecstasy, and that meaning sometimes was given to the word in English. But in the context of the Second Coming, the concept of being taken away or snatched by the Lord is pretty clearly stated in 1 Thess.

I think we ought to reclaim the word to its original usage and referent: speaking not of some "Pretrib" snatching away, but the plain words spoken of Paul about the final resurrection. It doesn't do us credit to say it is not in the Bible.


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## thbslawson (Sep 3, 2012)

I can think of many practical impacts it has made on my life. For starters, eschatologically, I stopped trying to interpret Biblical prophecy with the latest newspaper articles. Rather than sitting around waiting for some cataclysmic series of apocalyptic events to occur, and wondering if every new computer chip invented was going to be somehow implanted into my hand or forehead, I try to occupy my time with staying busy for the Lord until he comes. The book of Revelation is no longer a mystery filled with riddles. Every war started, every earthquake that happens, and every Democrat that gets elected is not "a sign of the close of this age", and a precursor to the soon arrival of the anti-Christ. 

It also allows me to look at Scripture as one story, consistent from beginning to end. I know many Dispensationalists who will say that believers in the OT were saved by grace, through faith, but this clashes with a consistent dispensational view.


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## AlexanderHenderson1647 (Sep 3, 2012)

VictorBravo said:


> AlexanderHenderson1647 said:
> 
> 
> > You are free to not obsess with/over the rupture...I'm sorry, I meant the "rapture" (a phony concept and a fabricated word, alien to Scripture) of the saints and cars crashing and being abandoned.
> ...



I was not aware of that Latin rendering- point taken and thank you.


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## earl40 (Sep 3, 2012)

thbslawson said:


> Every war started, every earthquake that happens, and every Democrat that gets elected is not "a sign of the close of this age", and a precursor to the soon arrival of the anti-Christ.



Interesting how you place these disasters together.


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## TylerRay (Sep 3, 2012)

Andres said:


> Oh and let's not forget these:
> 
> View attachment 3058



I am so thankful that, by God's grace, I have "Left Behind" my former dispensationalism.


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## deleteduser99 (Sep 4, 2012)

Repeating some things and injecting some of my own:

- You can embrace the riches of the Old Testament as practical and necessary for yourself (thank you TylerRay for that point about Psalm 119!).
- You may rest from your labors on the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath, without a Judaizing accusation straining your conscience.
- To your safety, you understand that, yes, Christ was addressing _you_ in His earthly ministry.
- You do not predict the church ending in failure, but in triumph.
- Whether premillennial, amillennial or postmillenial, you do not despair of the spread of the Gospel in the world, but expect it and then desire to come on board.
- Eschatology, though highly impractical and speculative in Dispensational theology, has here-and-now practicality for the Christian.
- You can shrug your shoulders at the prospect of the Temple being rebuilt because you know the once-for-all sacrifice has been made (Hebrews 10:1-4).
- You are immunized to Judaistic movements and all attempts to return to the types and shadows (Hebrews 8:12); which then will guard against legalism (Gal. 5).
- You'll be motivated to stay wide awake for the return of Christ, because you know His next return will be the final return, while many dispensationalists will be caught asleep.
- You have many more angles from which to see Christ (John 5:39,46, Luke 24:25-27, Hebrews 7-10)


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## Peairtach (Sep 4, 2012)

You can enjoy the fact that the Jews and all other nations are being incorporated into one worldwide Israel of God, without all the nonsense.


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## Jackie Kaulitz (Sep 4, 2012)

arap said:


> You're not always concerned with when is Gog and Magog going to attack Israel....
> I used to be (still kind of am) the rapture forums, it's where I get some news lol However they see everything happening now and even though they condemn newspaper exegesis, they always do it.



I love this answer! haha... Sad but true! Having been raised in a dispensationalist pre-trib household, End Times was THE most important subject in my Christian upbringing. I wasn't taught who Jesus was but I was taught about Gog and Magog and Russia and China and America and Babylon the Great falling and warned not to get the barcode! It is funny looking back but it is sad too. Since many people believe THEY are living in the last days, they stop living and start planning for the great escape. End Times was part of my homeschooling education. Bible, Jesus, God, Sanctification, Salvation were all things I had to learn about on my own. Life was ALL about the Rapture.

And to repeat what others said, you don't have to be scared anymore that you will be left behind! As a little girl, my father always said "I'm going up in the rapture but I don't know about you. You better recognize God when he comes or else you will be left behind." All that fear and all those nightmares are gone! Whew!


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## jgilberAZ (Sep 4, 2012)

Can you elaborate on this? Not, that I disagree, just want more clarification. Thanks.



> Eschatology, though highly impractical and
> speculative in Dispensational theology, has
> here-and-now practicality for the Christian.


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## deleteduser99 (Sep 4, 2012)

jgilberAZ said:


> Can you elaborate on this? Not, that I disagree, just want more clarification. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When a Dispensationalist I didn't even want to touch eschatology because it was so confusing, there were so many different views, ie. Islam or the RC being the Antichrist, what is Gog or Magog, when is the rapture going to happen, the role of the Jews; but the big thing is that I believed it was all futuristic. With that kind of eschatology, almost none of the details are certain, and from frustration I just dropped it and said, "Well whatever happens, happens." I even wondered if a Christian should spend all that much time in the book of Revelation because there wasn't much practical use for it. That same thought made me question whether my eschatology was right. When I read "The End Times Made Simple" by Sam Waldron it cleared so much up for me. It eliminated all the speculation, simplified all the concepts, and showed me how eschatology is relevant here and now. For the first time the subject was exciting to me. Instead of getting caught up in all sorts of speculations about the future, my concern became to make sure I'm ready for the return of Christ.

Hope that helps.


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