# When a hymn is objected to in worship



## Herald (Aug 1, 2009)

When our church was started we sang some rather happy clappy choruses with theologically deficient lyrics. As we moved further to the Reformed faith and the RPW we purged most of these choruses, and even some venerable hymns with suspect theology. My question has to do with how to approach hymns that one disagrees with. I don't sing. I remain quiet and pray. I know EP folks will use this as an argument for EP, but this thread is not about EP. For those of you who are not EP, do you remain silent also, or do you find yourself singing the hymn anyway in order not to draw attention to yourself?


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## Caroline (Aug 1, 2009)

Wasn't there a thread about how EP stands for 'extended play'? I'm assuming that isn't the acronym here though...

Anyway ....

I don't sing songs that I don't understand or that I disagree with. Maybe that's the defiant ex-cultist in me, but I became quite accustomed to sitting stuff out in Pente churches, including when everyone did the 'shout to the north, shout to the east, shout to the south, shout to the west' thing, and at one point in the shouting, they were turned in my direction all looking at me, where I sat there totally not shouting in any direction. I waved.

But, In my humble opinion, worship is not a giant Simon Says game where people just go along with absolutely anything they are told to do. 

In Reformed churches, I have difficulty more with comprehension than disagreement, but I am reluctant to sing stuff that I don't understand because, if I did understand, maybe I wouldn't agree with it --who knows? But I don't make a big issue of it. I sit down and just don't sing.


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## bookslover (Aug 1, 2009)

I would not sing a hymn, or a portion of same, if I knew that the lyrics were iffy, or downright bad, theologically. Providentially, we use the _Trinity Hymnal_ (revised edition, 1991) which contains very few, if any, hymns with questionable lyrics. It's a hymnal that was very carefully edited.


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## Hungus (Aug 1, 2009)

Standing silently and praying is what I did in similar situations.


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## rbcbob (Aug 1, 2009)

Herald said:


> When our church was started we sang some rather happy clappy choruses with theologically deficient lyrics. As we moved further to the Reformed faith and the RPW we purged most of these choruses, and even some venerable hymns with suspect theology. My question has to do with how to approach hymns that one disagrees with. I don't sing. I remain quiet and pray. I know EP folks will use this as an argument for EP, but this thread is not about EP. For those of you who are not EP, do you remain silent also, or do you find yourself singing the hymn anyway in order not to draw attention to yourself?



To join in the singing requires both COMPREHENSION and AGREEMENT.

1 Corinthians 14:15-16 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will *sing with the spirit*, and I will also *sing with the understanding*. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed *say "Amen"* at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?


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## LawrenceU (Aug 1, 2009)

I remain silent and pray. I have also at times used the lyrics as an illustration of not being discerning in the sermon if they were particularly bad. This is one reason that I am involved, as the preacher, in the selection of song.


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## Romans922 (Aug 1, 2009)

Liberty of Conscience my friend. You have to follow your conscience. May it have as lord THE LORD!



I wonder if you pray while others are singing, or something else while the congregation is singing, if you are dividing the body, not worshipping in union with each other. Maybe you should just remain silent.???


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## TimV (Aug 1, 2009)

I used to sit down in objection, but that's another thing I'd do different if I had to do it over again...

OK, here's a practical question. "Emptied Himself of all but love" from _And Can It Be_. So, it's really the only bad part of the song, so what do you do? I vote just sing it, and talk to an Elder about changing that one phrase.


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## KMK (Aug 1, 2009)

I remember one morning years ago at a Calvary Chapel singing a worship song in which the words to the chorus repeated, "I found Jesus." My wife and I simply looked at each other and sang instead, "Jesus found me." (I know, I was a stinker.)

You can really tell a great deal about a church by the songs they sing. But generally, the 'happy-clappy' songs have less to object to because they have less content. I find much more objectionable material in my UMC hymnbook than I ever did at Calvary.


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## RevZach (Aug 1, 2009)

Even with very floppy modern choruses, there are relatively few phrases of downright heresy. As the pastor, I just change these before they make it to print. For example, in "Come, Now Is the Time to Worship" (a song that's mostly about the one singing it ), instead of "Still the greatest treasure remains for those who gladly choose you now," we sing "...who gladly serve you now." Still not rock solid, but better. I generally am involved in other activities during the hippy holdout "early sing" anyway (which takes place from 10:50-11:00).

When it comes to hymns (which we do not print in the bulletin, but are already in print in the hymnal), I simply veto offenders (exception: funerals. We even sing "In the Garden" if it was a favorite of the deceased. )

Personally, if a member of my parish came to me to discuss the theological deficiencies of a hymn we were singing, I'd be overjoyed to know that he/she was actually paying attention.


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## Herald (Aug 1, 2009)

One thing I am convinced of is that all of worship is God-centric and is to be actively engaged in declaring His glory. While all of us have holes in our theology to some degree; to the best of our ability we should worship God in truth. Allowing congregational singing to be the weak link in the worship chain is not only lazy but sinful In my humble opinion.


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 1, 2009)

I run into this issue when I am on vacation or visiting another church. If I cannot sing the hymn, or phrase of the hymn, with some sense of orthodox faith being communicated through the words then I remain silent. Sometimes, the intention of the author is noble, and there may be a sense in which the truth they articulate is correct, though poorly articulated. So if I can detect that right motive or statement of faith in the hymn, then I will sing it. I do this to express as much unity as I can with the broader church, without violating conscience. Unfortunately, most of Christendom is not taught to articulate their faith very clearly today, and it shows in the modern hymns, but you don't want to discourage the worship of an immature Christian just because they don't say something as precisely as we would. If they ever ask my opinion on the song, or why I remained silent for the song or phrase, then I would use it as an opportunity to instruct, edify, and build up. But when I as the pastor have charge over the music, I only choose hymns which are clearly Scriptural and avoid the troublesome phrases.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2009)

I join in the posture of the congregation (standing or sitting, as appropriate) and remain silent. 

The more difficult area for me are those hymns where they've changed the words. It can be difficult for me to read the small print in the hymnbooks, and if the song is familiar, I'll sing along until I hit a place where they've changed the words (it usually appears that they have done so to copyright an otherwise public domain set of words), and I veer off from what the rest of the room is singing.


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## fredtgreco (Aug 1, 2009)

TimV said:


> I used to sit down in objection, but that's another thing I'd do different if I had to do it over again...
> 
> OK, here's a practical question. "Emptied Himself of all but love" from _And Can It Be_. So, it's really the only bad part of the song, so what do you do? I vote just sing it, and talk to an Elder about changing that one phrase.



This is why, for example the New Trinity Hymnal does change lyrics. In the NTH, #455 "And Can it Be" the phrase is:

"humbled himself (so great his love)"


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## N. Eshelman (Aug 1, 2009)

I am EP, but I actually have a thought that pertains!  

What I would do is find another hymn in the same meter: CM, SM, LM, 88.88.88, etc. and meditate on THOSE words as the congregation aids you though the singing. This is what I have done in hymn singing churches that also have psalms. I will open the book to a psalm in the same meter and be in joyous meditation. 

I have found that it protects the heart against bitterness as well.


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## Guido's Brother (Aug 1, 2009)

Before I was a pastor, I once leaned strong enough to the EP position that I wouldn't sing hymns. I'd simply stay silent and think about something else, usually about the issue of psalms vs. hymns. My wife wasn't of the same mind and it upset her that I wouldn't sing and it also upset or concerned a lot of the people around me. It ended up being a distraction for many people. While I'm not EP, if I were I don't think I would take this approach again. What is the greater sin? Singing the hymn with the congregation or distracting everyone else and presenting a (potential) obstacle for the preaching of the gospel? If singing a hymn is sinful, the consistory of the congregation along with the congregation as a whole bears the sin. Not singing is too much of an individualistic approach to this issue. You sing and then make efforts to convince the church community of your position. I think the same would hold true for those who are not EP facing the singing of a bad hymn.


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## Augusta (Aug 1, 2009)

nleshelman said:


> I am EP, but I actually have a thought that pertains!
> 
> What I would do is find another hymn in the same meter: CM, SM, LM, 88.88.88, etc. and meditate on THOSE words as the congregation aids you though the singing. This is what I have done in hymn singing churches that also have psalms. I will open the book to a psalm in the same meter and be in joyous meditation.
> 
> I have found that it protects the heart against bitterness as well.




This is what I do as well. I have a psalter in the back of my Bible that I use for that purpose. I do that or I find the psalm that the hymn is based on and meditate on that.


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## Webservant (Aug 1, 2009)

Nobody's really paying attention to whether or not you're really singing. So just don't sing it. You would, however, have a duty to bring this up to the Session. In fact, I would ask for 10 or 15 minutes at the next meeting, plead my case, and ask them specifically for a defense of said song, and not just a generic "is this OK".


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## Lady of the Lake (Aug 1, 2009)

Are you referring to situations like the first verse of _To God Be the Glory_ by Fanny Crosby 1875? If the hymnal has the version that says "And opened the lifegate that all may go in" I make the correction automatically and sing, "And opened the lifegate that we may go in."


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## Caroline (Aug 1, 2009)

> I used to sit down in objection, but that's another thing I'd do different if I had to do it over again...



I don't actually sit in objection (or haven't recently). Whether I sit or stand on any given Sunday for worship largely depends on Parkinson's symptoms, so I don't think anybody is surprised.

Whether I WOULD ever sit down (or walk out) in objection would probably depend on just how bad the song was. I don't think I've ever come across a Reformed hymn that sent me into fits (although, to be fair, I only understand maybe a third of them, so who knows ...)

But I did run a 'Bad Pentecostal Song Awards' for about five years, wherein people would nominate horrible Pentecostal songs, and then, at the end of the year, I would award the worst ones. (Be warned--it's a bit caustic. I suppose ex-Pentes often find some relief in finally saying what we have been thinking about some of those songs for years and years and years ...)

So, depending on just how bad it was, I suppose I think there is a place for stronger objection. 

By the way, I once did get a nomination from a Reformed songbook. I can't find it right off, but it was about Santa visiting baby Jesus in the manger. No really. It was.


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## Jake (Aug 1, 2009)

When it is something that is bad theology, I usually just don't sing. When it is an extended time, I sometimes feel a bit awkward though. "I have decided to follow Jesus" at the end of the service and such can be awkward, especially when it goes on for quite a while as the pastor tries to get people to come down. 

One time in youth (I don't normally go) I remember not being able to sing something for a while and I felt awkard. The music was blasting so loud and had such a hard bass I was having trouble breathing anyway, but I looked around and didn't see a single person singing. This ended up being the case for most of the service though, except for when the leader had us yell parts of a song. "I will not be silent anymore" for instance. Complete with fist-pounding hand movement! 

My problem more often in my church is with very repetitive phrases (for instance the other day "There's no God like Jehovah" about 20-30 times) or lyrics that are man-centered (such as Friend of God). Here I usually sing along, but I do not feel like I am glorifying God at all. In some cases I feel like I am glorifying self as well. 

The problem is, I often am the one running the computer for the lyrics.


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## fredtgreco (Aug 1, 2009)

Lady of the Lake said:


> Are you referring to situations like the first verse of _To God Be the Glory_ by Fanny Crosby 1875? If the hymnal has the version that says "And opened the lifegate that all may go in" I make the correction automatically and sing, "And opened the lifegate that we may go in."



Again, the good old Trinity Hymnal makes that change.


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## Caroline (Aug 1, 2009)

> I looked around and didn't see a single person singing. This ended up being the case for most of the service though, except for when the leader had us yell parts of a song. "I will not be silent anymore" for instance.



 I LOVE that kind of irony.


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## Curt (Aug 1, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Lady of the Lake said:
> 
> 
> > Are you referring to situations like the first verse of _To God Be the Glory_ by Fanny Crosby 1875? If the hymnal has the version that says "And opened the lifegate that all may go in" I make the correction automatically and sing, "And opened the lifegate that we may go in."
> ...



Fred,

I would love to have Trinity Hymnals, but alas, we can't afford them. I do still prefer the 1961 version, though.


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## Herald (Aug 1, 2009)

Curt said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Lady of the Lake said:
> ...



Curt,

The Baptist Trinity Hymnal costs about $18 each. Our budget is tight too. I'd like to present the idea to the church and see if the membership will consider sponsoring two hymnals each. That would allow us to have a hymnal for each member plus extras for visitors.


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## OPC'n (Aug 1, 2009)

I have to agree with Wes. Everyone in the congregation is under the leadership of the pastor and should submit to worshipping the way he has set it up for that Sunday. THEN, you could approach him and the elders and voice your concerns and help rid the church of bad songs. Sometime women know their husbands are making bad decisions, but they support their husbands anyway bc it's commanded of them....submission. The church is also to be submissive to the pastor/elders in biblical areas for they are under Christ. They won't always make the correct decision but we should support them while voicing our concerns and getting a remedy for our concerns.


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## student ad x (Aug 1, 2009)

Herald said:


> For those of you who are not EP, do you remain silent also, or do you find yourself singing the hymn anyway in order not to draw attention to yourself?



Hello Herald & PB,

I stand & pray. I do not serve in the choir because of this issue with unsound theology in the lyrics. (And I love singing to the Lord )


humbly


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## dr_parsley (Aug 2, 2009)

I try to lead from the front and with gusto sing slightly different words that are theologically correct and hope that other people follow; maybe a tidal wave of correctness will have us all singing the new version. I'm sure my slightly different words don't cause anyone to lose their focus but if someone hears, that's fine.


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