# Anabaptists? Mennonites?



## blhowes

I'm reading a book called &quot;Voices from the Reformation&quot; and a small part of the book talks about the anabaptists and has some of their writings. It sounds like there's a wide range of beliefs among the anabaptists, but I was wondering if there were certain common teachings that they generally held to that most today would consider troublesome? Also, two of the writings were from Mennonite sources - I was wondering if the Mennonites came from the Anabaptists? The pacifist stand of the anabaptists I think is the same, but I was wondering if there was more commonality between the two?

Just curious,
Bob


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## C. Matthew McMahon

Bob,

The Mennonites did come out of the Anabaptist movement and do hold to many of their beliefs.

Yes, there is a wide range of beliefs for various anabaptist sects. There are only two or three Anabaptists that wrote exstensively and became &quot;more or less&quot; theologians for them - Mennp simons, Michael Staler and the Confession he drew up and Peter Reiderman as well.

Quote:
&quot;Because of it's sectarian nature, such theology often had little control over the pervasive individualism of self proclaimed prophets or teachers.&quot; This is characterized by Anabaptist theology.

some denied the trinity, others did not. Some denied the deity of Christ, others did not, all of them were against &quot;government&quot; in a number of ways, especially a church-state. They all believed in rebaptism. They all deesired a pure church of only the regenerate (so does everyone) but they took this to mean the entrance into the local body.

You really can see all across the board a varied variety of teaching for them, but I think one which was most pervasive is the &quot;self-procliamed&quot; nature of their movement in light of their direct engagement with various forms of &quot;charismata&quot; (God told me so....). All of the movments dabbled heavily in this, and the Zwikau prophets came out of their camp. (You'll read about those guys in your book if you have not got there already.)


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## blhowes

Matthew,
Thanks for your response. 

Bob

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by blhowes]


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## Wannabee

[quote:69fe917308]All of the movments dabbled heavily in this, and the Zwikau prophets came out of their camp. (You'll read about those guys in your book if you have not got there already.) [/quote:69fe917308]This is interesting. We're studying the anabaptists right now and their is a disagreement here. Not that this element didn't exist, but the first word up there (all) does not belong. There were all sorts of heretics within the anabaptist movement, but there were many great godly men as well. Many of these churches attempted to avoid conflict and simply preach the truth, but were exterminated by the other protestants. Luther used the anabaptists to get the RCC of his throat. Zwingli turned on his own students and saw many of them executed. Many of their works were burned because they were caught by the RCC or fellow protestants who disagreed with them. 
Many original sources have been dug up over the past 50 years or so. It would be a good idea to reevaluate anything written prior to that in light of more recent findings. It must be considered that most of what was written before then was written by the enemies of the Anabaptists.
One common thread is that they were all against a united church state, unlike Luther or Zwingli or most of the reformers of that time. They varied somewhat in how this played out, from pacifist to hostile confrontation. [quote:69fe917308]Note James M. Stayers, AThe Anabaptists,@ Reformation Europe: A Guide to Research: The current agenda of Anabaptist research consists in breaking free from confessional partisanship and narrowness, recognizing the diversity and plurality of the Anabaptists movements, tracing their connections to the thought patterns of the medieval world, illuminating the importance of the hitherto overshadowed second generation, and working towards a method of social history appropriate to an undeniably and irreducibly religious phenomenon. These are the present concerns of Reformation research in general; they imply a thorough-going integration of Anabaptism into the historical and theological interpretation of the Reformation.[/quote:69fe917308]Hubmaier would make a good study.

Four distinct groups of Anabaptists are worth considering.
I. Anabaptists (Taufer)--Root of Faith is New Testament--Positions from Scripture
A. Individuals 
1. Swiss Brethern
a. Conrad Grebel 1495-1526
b. Felix Manz 1498-1527
c. George Blaurock 1492-1529?
d. Wilheim Reublin 1480-1559
2. South German Brethern
a. Michael Sattler 1490-1527
b. Pilgrim Marpeck -1556
c. Balthasar Hubmaier 1480-1528
3. Hutterites
a. Jacob Hutter ?-1536
b. Jakob Widemann
4. Dutch Mennonites
a. Menno Simons 1496-1561
b. Dirk Phillips 1504-1568
5. Others

a. Andreas Carlstadt 1480-1541
b. Eberli Bolt -1525 (First Martyr)
B. Doctrine and Characteristics
1. Bible as authority
2. Believer's Baptism
3. Apostolic Simplicity
4. Community of goods (Hutter)
5. Pacifist (all but Hubmaier)

II. Spiritualists--Root of Faith is the SpiritB Visions, dreams
A. Individuals
1. Charismatic B Revolutionary
a. Zwickau Prophets
Marcus Stubner
Nkolaus Storch
b. Thomas Munzer 1488-1525
2. Mystical
Casper Schwenckfeld 1489-1561
3. Speculative
a. Sebastian Franck 1499-1543
b. Hans Denck 1500-1527
4. Other
Wolfgang Capito 1478-1541
B. Doctrine and characteristics
1. Inner/no baptism
2. Religious/social issues
3. Dreams and visions B the living word, angelic revelation
4. Inspiration and enthusiasm


.III. Religious Revolutionaries--Root of Faith is Prophetic; allegorized Scripture--
&quot;Maccabean&quot; Christians--Some Violent--Prophesied restoration of
Kingdom/Church
A. Individuals
1. Melchior Hofmann 1494-1543
2. Hans Hut ?-1527
3. The Munster Kingdom 1534-1535
4. Jan van Leyden
5. Jan Matthysz
6. Obbe Philips 1500-1568
B. Doctrine and characteristics
1. Kingdom baptism
2. Elaborate Chiliastic Prophetism

3. &quot;State church&quot; equals the Theocratic Kingdom
4. Polygamy
5. Davidic Kingdom by violence

IV. Evangelical Rationalists--Root of Faith is Reason--Anti-Trinitarians, Unitarians
A. Individuals
1. Michael Servetus 1511-1553
2. Sebastian Castellio 1515-1563
3. Laelius Socinus 1525-1562
4. Faustus Socinus 1539-1604 (Nephew of Laelius)
B. Doctrine and characteristics
1. Restored true church
2. Anti-Trinitarian
3. Chiliastic
4. Humanism


Some good sources can be found in these, although some probably aren't too good.
Armour, Roll. Anabaptist Baptism
Blake, Willem. Calvin and the Anabaptist Radicals
Basden, Paul, David Dockery The People of God, Essays in the Believer=s Church
Bax, E. Belfort. Rise and Fall of the Anabaptists
*Bender, Harold Stauffer. The Anabaptist Vision, 1960
________. The Anabaptists and religious Liberty in the 16th Century
________. The Mennonite Encyclopedia (5 vols)
Bender, Ross. The People of God
Bergsten, Torsten. Balthasar Hubmaier 
Broadbent, E.H. The Pilgrim Church
Burger, Edward K. Erasmus and the Anabaptists
Burrage, Henry Sweetser. History of the Anabaptists in Switzerland
Calvin, John Treatises Against the Anabaptist and the Libertines (Farley tr.)
Carlstadt, Andreas. The Essential Carlstadt
Chronicles of the Hutterian Brethern
Church, F. Forrester and Timothy George Continuity and Discontinuity in Church History
*Clasen, Claus-Peter. Anabaptism: A Social History, 1525-1618
Davis, Kenneth R. Anabaptism and Asceticism
Deppermann, Klaus Melchior Hoffman
Early Anabaptist Spirituality. Selected Writings
*Estep, William R., Jr., ed. Anabaptist Beginnings (1523-33): A Source Book 
________. The Anabaptist Story 2nd ed.
________. Revolution Within the Revolution
Fosdick, Harry Emerson. Great Voices of the Reformation, An Anthology
Friedmann, Robert. Hutterite Studies
*________ . The Theology of Anabaptism
Fulton, John F. Michael Servetus Humanist and Martyr
Garrett, James Leo The Concept of the Believers= Church
Goertz, Hans-Jurgen (ed) Profiles of Radical Reformers
Grebel, Conrad The Grebel Letters and Related Documents
Gritsch, Eric W. Reformer Without a Church (Thomas Muentzer)
Gross, Lenord The Golden Years of the Hutterites
Hershberger, Gary F. The Recovery of the Anabaptist Vision
Hillerbrand, Hans Radical Tendencies in the Reformation: Divergent Perspectives
Horsch, John. The Hutterian Brethren
________. Mennonites in Europe
Horst, Irvin B. The Radical Brethren: Anabaptism and the English Reformation to1558
Hostetler, John A. Hutterite Society
*Hubmaier, Balthasar. The Writings of Balthasar Hubmaier
Jones, Rufus M. Spiritual Reformers in the 16th and 17th Centuries
_______. Studies in Mystical Religion
Keim, Albert N. Harold S Bender 1897-1962
*Klaasen, Walter.(ed). Anabaptism in Outline: Selected Primary Sources
________. Anabaptism: Neither Catholic nor Protestant
________. Anabaptism Revisited
________. (ed). Consultation on Anabaptist Mennonite Theology
Knox, John. Warning Against the Anabaptists
Krahn, Cornelius. Dutch Anabaptism, Origin, Spread, Life and Thought
Littell, Franklin Hamlin. The Anabaptist View of the Church
________. The Free Church 
*________. The Origins of Sectarian Protestantism
Lumpkin, William L. Baptist Confessions of Faith
Marpeck, Pilgrim The Writings of Pilgrim Marpeck
McGlothlin, William J. Baptist Confessions of Faith
Munzer, Thomas The Collected Works of Thomas Muntzer
Ozment, Steven E. Mysticism and Dissent
Packull, Werner O. Hutterite Beginnings
________. Radical Reformation Studies (for Stayer)
Pater, Calvin Augustine Karlstadt as the Father of the Baptist Movements
Payne, Ernest A. The Anabaptists of the 16th Centruy
Philips, Dirk. The Writings of Dirk Philips
Rideman, Peter Confession of Faith
Sattler. Michael. The Legacy of Michael Sattler 
Shenk Wilbert R.(ed.). Anabaptism and Mission
Sources of Swiss Anabaptism
*Simons, Menno. The Complete Writings of Menno Simons
Smithson, Robert Jamieson. The Anabaptists, Their Contribution to our Protestant Heritage
Snyder, C. Arnold Anabaptist History and Theology. An Introduction
________. The Life and Thought of Michael Sattler
Springer, Nelson P. Mennonite Bibliography, 1631-1961
*Stayer, James M. Anabaptists and the Sword 
________. The German Peasants= War
Steinmetz, David. Reformers in the Wings
Vedder, Henry C. Balthasar Hubmaier, the Leader of the Anabaptists
*Verduin, Leonard. The Anatomy of a Hybrid
________. The Reformers and Their Stepchildren
Weaver, J. Denny Becoming Anabaptist
Wenger, John The Doctrines of the Mennonites.
________. Glimpses of Mennonite History and Doctrine
Weston, Gunnar. The Free Church Through the Ages
Williams, George H. The Radical Reformation
_________. &quot;Studies in the Radical Reformation (1517-1618): A Bibliographical Survey of Research Since 1939&quot;
*_________. and Mergal, Angel M. Spiritual and Anabaptist Writers, LCC 
Van Braght, T. The Martyrs Mirror


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## C. Matthew McMahon

Wannabe - 

Nice point outline - 
And nice bibliography.

That should be of help.


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## Wannabee

Thank you.

I wish I could take all the credit, but most of the info is from my sylabus.


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## blhowes

Wannabee,
Thanks for posting the outline. Looks like you're taking a pretty interesting class.

I'm interested in learning more about the history and beliefs of the anabaptists. I'd like to get a better feel for who they were, what they believed, why they were persecuted, etc.

So, do all those listed in the outline lay claim to being anabaptists? Are anabaptists basically anybody that opposed the infant baptism?

It looks like such a diverse list of beliefs. 

Bob

[Edited on 2-8-2004 by blhowes]


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## Wannabee

It really is a diverse lot Bob. Like I mentioned earlier, it seems that the only consistent threads were the separation of church and state and they seem to be mostly antipaedo. Some didn't baptize at all. Many were heretics. Many were great godly men. It's quite a mix. 
Part of the problem is that just about anyone that wasn't part of the established church got labeled anabaptist. Many of them couldn't be called baptist by their beliefs. They were just plain nuts. Some were sort of like the ultra dispensationalist prophecy nuts of our day. Others were like the quakers. 
I can't vouch for the books. I've only read parts of a few of them. They're books that my professor listed in his bibliography. He once taught a class on anabaptists and has a pretty comprehensive sylabus on it. I'm going to be getting it, and he doesn't mind us sharing, as long as he gets credit for his work. I'll let you know if/when I get it. In the meantime, I can send you what I have if you'd like.
If you want to get to reading, start with the books above that have an asterisk before them. From there you'd probably get more bibliographic info that will lead you wherever you could possibly want to go.

Have fun.


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## cih1355

Menno Simons, an Anabaptist, believed that although Jesus was fully human, He did not receive His human nature from Mary. Simons taught that Jesus was born out of, not from Mary. This indeed was a peculiar doctrine. Not all Anabaptists held to this view.


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## Tom77

Some Traits of Anabaptists 
1. Sola Scriptura
2. Justification by faith with some ambiguities (synthetic viewpoints)
3. Rejected the Augustinian view of human nature.
4. Rejected the union of church and state

This is one of the "saddest" chapters of the Reformation because the Magisterial Rerformers did not tolerate the Anabaptists, but persecuted them as much as did Rome. The reason for this is that the doctrine of the &quot;separation of Church and State&quot; was so radical, counter-cultural, and counter-intuitive that even the magisterial reformers considered it radical.

5. Regenerate Church Membership
6. Believer Baptism and by baptism membership and submission to the authority of the church. They did not immerse, but poured instead.
7. Pacifism - Their belief in separation of church and state initially led them to oppose all warfare since in a war, the winning side will force its religious views on the losing side. God said, "Vengeance is mine."
8. A Christian cannot be a Magistrate - The church is in a completely different sphere from the state. The Anabaptists separated themselves from all society. The Magistrate is involved in persecuting Christians, and so for a Christian to be in the government, he would be both free from persecution and involved in persecuting brethren.
9. The Great Commission is Relevant - The Church expands not through infant baptism, but through gospel preaching! We must make converts and see them come to faith and then baptize them into our fellowships.


[Edited on 2-9-2004 by Tom77]


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## blhowes

Another question for those familiar with the life and times of the anabaptist movement.

I read the following about anabaptists:

Its most distinctive tenet was adult Baptism. In the first generation of the movement, converts submitted to a second Baptism, which was a crime punishable by death under the legal codes of the time. 

Wow! The death penalty? Who's legal system? Roman catholic?


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## Wannabee

The issue of Baptism
a. Because of the Church State alliance, those who refused infant baptism or who were baptized as believers were accused of denying the validity of the office of Bishop and the authority of the church. This was considered an offense of treason against the state.
b. Anabaptists claimed the teaching of the New Testament as their sole reason for opposition to the bishop and the church


As I understand it, it was both the protestant and RCC that persecuted the anabaptists. Calvin himself was no fan of theirs. Zwingli saw his own students drowned for rebaptizing. A major consideration is that the Anabaptists were anti-government control over religion. The protestants of the time were not. They were attempting to reform the traditional Catholic government into a protestant form of government. So, when someone preached only believer's baptism, they were in essence preaching against the teaching of the state and were declared enemies of the state and church. They were not convicted everywhere, but niether were they accepted. It was a tough ride.

Thomas Munzer lead a peasant revolt in 1525. They weren't really baptists though. In fact Munzer didn't even teach Baptism. They were labeled Anabaptists however, causing more damage to an alread persecuted group, causing vicious attacks and criticism that Anabaptists were a threat to existing order and social stability. This lead the protestants to use the Anabaptists as scapegoats, going to great lengths to direct attacks from Catholics aimed at them to be redirected at Anabaptists.

Statistics
a. Roland Bainton stated: AThe documents now in process of publication reveal an amazing dissemination and indicate a real possibility that Anabaptism, if unimpeded by the sword of the magistrate, might have become the prevailing form of the Church in [email protected] The Recovery, 1957, 321.
b. Between 1525-1618, there is estimated to have been 12,500 Anabaptists affecting 2,088 towns in Germany.
c. Counting Moravia, and surrounding German areas, including the Hutterites, the number could reach 30,000. 
c. The number of Anabaptist Martyrs is difficult to determine:
See Mennonite Encyclopedia 3, 523-4; The Martyrs Mirror
Netherlands (Samuel Cramer) 1500 Martyrs
Belgium (Zijpp) 1000 Martyrs
South Germany, Switzerland, Austria 4000 Martyrs

Unifying Principles and Definitions
a. Harold Bender identifies three elements which he terms the Anabaptist Vision:
(all Anabaptist fit this category). 
1). The concept of the essence of Christianity as discipleship
2). A voluntary Church Membership
3). The ethic of love and non-resistence as applied to all human relationships 
b. Franklin Littell lists six basic principles or marks of the Anabaptists:
1). The believers= Church, although outwardly constituted by volunteers, is Christ=s Church and not theirs.
2). Membership in the Believers= Church is voluntary and witting
3). The principle of separation from Athe [email protected] is basic B although it has often been misrepresented.
4). Mission and witness are key concepts for the Believers= Church and all members are involved.
5). Internal integrity and church discipline are stressed.
6). The concept of the secular B especially with respect to government
Littell offers a working definition of the Anabaptists:

A Those in the Radical Reformation who gathered and disciplined a &gt;true church= upon the apostolic pattern as they understood [email protected] p. xvii. He goes to point out that for Protestants, the nature of the true church was subsidiary to other concerns, theological and political.
c. George Williams, in a similar vein, writes, Acommon to all participants in the Radical Reformation were disappointments in the moral aspects of territorial Protestantism as articulated by Luther and Zwingli, and forthright disavowal of several of its doctrines and [email protected] Most important was the issue of Church and State, and the Areproduction of the structure of apostolic Christianity from the New [email protected] Radical, p. xxviii.

A summary of common Principles 
While many issues have been listed as common among the Anabaptists, the most
obvious include: (Adapted from Estep, Beginnings, p. 2)
a. An appeal to the New Testament as the ultimate authority for the Church.
b. Primitivism, or the principle of restoration of the apostolic pattern in faith and
practice of the Church.
c. The concept that the local gathering was a fellowship of regenerate believers practicing church discipline.
d. Believer's Baptism (with some exceptions as a few among the Anabaptists did not stress this.)
e. The concept of ordinances as opposed to sacraments.
f. An objection to unqualified Calvinism which varied from slight modifications to total rejection.
g. An acceptance of theology based on the ancient symbols with a rejection of all creeds.
h. A rejection of a church hierarchy.
i. An affirmation of religious liberty with the rejection of an established state church.
j. Salvation through faith in Christ. (Justification was not frequently developed)
k. A concept of discipleship that includes evangelism, ethics, and true social concern.
It seems useful to see a unifying principle in the desire for a true church. However, there were considerable disagreements as to the nature of that church.


Attitudes toward Anabaptists
a. Up until recently attitudes have followed the polemical model of the Lutheran
and Reformed writers.
1). Luther termed all his Anabaptist opponents ASchwarmer,@ or enthusiasts, 
fanatics, or spiritualists, without regard for differences. See Luther Table
Talk, pp. 48, 113-14, 140, 163, 174, 318.
2). Calvin speaks disrespectfully of Anabaptists in his Treatises Against
the Anabaptists and Against the Libertines (Baker Book House, 1982)
c.f. 44-55 with 190-191. Also see Blake, Calvin, p.31.
b. Bergsten and others outline nine common attitudes prevail toward Anabaptists. 
Ecclesiastical allegiance plays a decisive role in many of these views as well as
historical bias.
1). Their contemporaries views them as arrogant, ambitious, avaricious (greedy of gain), and unstable.
2). 17th and 18th century writers reflect the negative attitudes of the Reformed theologians.
3). 19th century liberal Catholics vindicate some Anabaptists! (C.A. Cornelius)
4). Contemporary Lutheran and Reformed writers note the mediating and important role of moderate Anabaptists.
5). Baptists highly regard them as the most significant individuals of the Reformation age.
6). Mennonites are very interested in the Anabaptists although critical of some of their views (Bender).
Note: The introduction to the article on Hubmaier in the Mennonite Encyclodaedia
2: 826:
AAn Anabaptist leader 1525-28, particularly in Moravia, where he was the
head of a large congregation 1526-28, outstanding for the number and
importance of his writings, but of no great permanent influence on the later
Anabaptist-Mennonite movement, since he diverged from the main line
of Anabaptists on the question of non-resistance. . . [email protected]
7). Various 20th-century historians associate them with socialism, monasticism, and German mystical piety (Troeltsch, Kautsky).
8). An effort to see Anabaptists as coming out of old-Evangelical brotherhoods such as the Waldenses (Keller)
9). Contemporary liberal historians are pleading for openness and fairness, calling for accurate interpretation (Bainton, Williams). 
10). A fair and more evangelical view that the Anabaptist movement included a number of believers whose views were inspired by the reformers and in the end, came out of a study of the Bible. These had a spiritual kinship with earlier groups and represent the culmination of the original vision
of Luther and Zwingli (Horsch, Estep).

[Edited on 2-12-2004 by Wannabee]


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## blhowes

Wannabee,
Thanks for the post. I printed it out and will read it on the way home.
Bob


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## cupotea

My first exposure to the gospel was from Mennonites. I lived in Pennsylvania Dutch country, which is home to many Annabaptist sects. -- Amish, Mennonites, Dunkards, Brethren, etc. The Amish are not Christian -- in fact, a most superstitious folk. Mennonites wear beards but no moustaches (they are a sign of pride). Some Mennonites are considered evangelical, others are liberal. All that I am aware of are intensely Arminian.


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## Galahad

Wanabee,

In your bibliography, you mentioned Packull. For my Ren. and Reformation class, I read one of his books and reviewed it. Highly technical and complex, but worth taking a look into -

Packull, Werner O. Mysticism and the Early South German-Austrian Anabaptist Movement 1525-1531. Herald Press, Scottdale, PE (1977).

In this monograph, he points out a surprising detail that had never been pointed out to me. Every previous history class (actually including the one where I read this book), the Anabaptists have been described as the &quot;Radical Reformation&quot;. On a spectrum, the RCC is see as ultra-conservative with the Magisterial Reformers holding the middle ground with the Radicals see as the ultra-liberal branch.

At least in the case of the South German movement, this isn't historically accurate. The Anabaptists from this grouping were heirs, not of the Augustinian monastic philosophy and theology, but rather of the Mideavil mystics in the RCC. 

If we see the Radicals as wanting to reform the church truly and the Magisterial Reformers wanting to stop short at some point, then we have misunderstood the roots of the movement and how it developed. Only in the context of mystical, individual, spiritual communion with God could a believer truly experience salvation. Since the mystic has this direct communion with God, he doesn't need a text to explain God's will.

In describing the immanent relationship between the believer and God, Packull states, "There man is being taught alone by God... and not by any creature." p. 29

This throws off all ecclesiology and Scripture. 

As to the problem with Luther and others putting the Ana's to death - they believed that they were preventing murder's of the soul to continue their destruction of the ignorant. Putting the heretic to the sword or the flame was the best and most effective way to prevent people from being turned aside to false idols that would imperil their immortal souls.

Thought I'd jump in.
---------
Jeffrey Brannen


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## JM

Quote: Those who have examined the hermeneutics of the Anabaptists have identified six key components:

(1) The Bible as Self-interpreting

(2) Christocentrism

(3) The Two Testaments

(4) Spirit and Word

(5) Congregational Hermeneutics

(6) Hermeneutics of Obedience
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/view/247


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## Peter

The repudiation of Anabatism by Anabaptist leader Obbe Phillips and his relation of their horrid practices and heretical beliefs

Anabaptists are not Protestants. I'd venture to say Romanists are more Protestant than Anabaptists.


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## LadyFlynt

Actually, it's the Amish that wear beards and no mustaches. Most Mennonites obhor beards, preferring instead a cleanly shaven face. The reason for the rejection of mustaches is their supposed association with the military.

For the person that mentioned sola scriptura...not if it comes up against their traditions. As much as they hate the Catholics, they are very catholic in nature of their church traditions and holy days. Hubby was blasted once for a comment I made to another wife...if it came between church unity and scripture, then I'm sticking with scripture. They didn't take too kindly to this.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## MICWARFIELD

You might want to check out "Ventures in discipleship" by John R. Martin. I had to read it back in 1990 when I attended a school of evangelism. It's a pro-Anabaptist book with many quotes from Conrad Grebel, Michael Sattler, Pilgram Marpeck, and Menno Simons.

The subtitle is "A handbook for groups or individuals". I remember that we were required to keep a daily journal, reflecting on the Anabaptist quotations and scriptures in the book. It was very interesting.

Mike


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## R. Scott Clark

> 2. Justification by faith with some ambiguities (synthetic viewpoints)



I would like to see or be pointed toward primary source evidence that any of the Anabaptist leaders unequivocally taught justification _sola gratia, sola fide_. To my knowledge, they universally rejected it because they agreed with Rome that it would lead to immorality.

rsc


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## LadyFlynt

from having lived it.


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## Bryan

I see Wenger mentioned in Wannabee's list of books, but not his "Introduction To Theology" which is "A brief introduction to the Doctrinal Content of Scripture Written in the Anabaptist-Mennonite Tradition". It, along with his "Glimpses of Mennonite History and Doctrine" are well done books that I would recommend.

Wenger has an interesting perspective becasue of his background, he has studied at "Eastern Mennonite and Goshen colleges, at Westminster and Princeton Theological seminaries and the universities of Basel, Chicago, Michigan (MA in philosophy), and Zurich (thD). I don't think it is often that Van Til is refrenced in a Mennonite book...

Bryan
SDG


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## yeutter

Do all Mennonites deny original sin?


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## Bryan

Wenger quotes the following from Menno Simons' Complete Works, I, p. 232; cf. II, pp. 312, 313 when speaking on The Nature of Depravity in his own work:

"A carnal man cannot understand spiratural things, for he is by nature a child of the devil, and is not spiraturally minded, hence, he comprehends nothing spiratural; for by nature he is a stranger to God; has nothing of a divine nature dwelling in him, not has communion with God, but is muich rather at enmity with Him; he is unmerciful, unjust, unclean, not peacable, impatient, disobedient, without understanding, and unhappy. So are all men by nature according to their birth and origin after the flesh. This is the first or old Adam and is comprised in the Scriptures in a single word, ungodly, that is without God, a stranger and destitue of the divine nature."

All my expirences with Mennonites of today, I do live in Winnipeg Canada which if you know about Mennonites you will understand to be a city full of Mennonites, and my family background is Mennonite, has shown me that they are pretty much Arminian. I have a lot of respect for the Mennonites I know, which are a lot. I don't always agree with them but I see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bryan
SDG


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## LadyFlynt

I see very few of them to be actually "in Christ" as many do not even understand what it is to be moved spiritually...those that do will not speak of it for fear of being ostracized.


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## polemic_turtle

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> The repudiation of Anabatism by Anabaptist leader Obbe Phillips and his relation of their horrid practices and heretical beliefs
> 
> Anabaptists are not Protestants. I'd venture to say Romanists are more Protestant than Anabaptists.


Perhaps it is due to the intent which is behind the "excerpting", but I tend to think rather critically of this collection of quotes; it's beyond sensational, in my opinion. Even if he did write that, was it written in a proper spirit of truth or was this somewhat like Cranmer almost recanting everything he had taught to reform England due to the influence of the queen? Was it really true or was there another motive behind the villianizing of everyone he ever knew while within the movement?

Hmmmmm.


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## James

I thought this article by Peter Hammond may be of some interest on the Anabaptists. I bring this article up because the pastor at the SBC church I used to attend preached an anti-calvinism sermon with these folks as the innocent victims of the wicked John Calvin. You know... John Calvin hated anabaptists so calvinism is of the devil! I believe they sound more like insurgents bent on anarchy than some sanctified church state separation. I don't know much about them but it seems arminian baptists should be cautious of tooting the anabaptist horn in order to tear down reformed theology. 

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/were_anabaptists_persecuted_for _faith.htm


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## polemic_turtle

But the term Anabaptist could include such widely differing groups as those who opposed the baptism of mainstream churches out of conscience because they thought it un-Scriptural and those who opposed it as an institution of the political majority, which they sought to gain the mastery over for political gains. The Munsterites weren't mainstream Anabaptists, most anabaptists were pacifists! I don't think the article above linked really addresses the issue because it points to the lunatic fringe rather than to the mainstream.


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## Larry Hughes

> "¦they universally rejected it because they agreed with Rome that it would lead to immorality



And agree with Ladyflynnt having lived a short peace of it through my wife´s family/home town background though rooted in various "œBaptist" denominations (not to include ALL Baptist here, especially reformed Baptist), it was thoroughly Anabaptistic for that very reason "“ sola gratia, sola fide is implicitly rejected similar to Rome because too much grace leads to immorality, so you get busy with other works. It was the oddest mix of denominations I´ve ever run into, some Methodist in the area even entered into the mix. But I can tell you one thing, it would lead you to utter despair and completely away from Christ.


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