# Eco



## Calvinbeza (Mar 28, 2015)

What do you think about that " The ECO is just like PC(USA) without homosexuals?Last weeks I read this aricle " ECO, a new conservative Presbyterian church is growing. Conservative????


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 28, 2015)

Not very conservative, just more conservative than the PCUSA.


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## Edward (Mar 28, 2015)

I prefer my formulation - "ECO - for liberals who are homophobic" That is the reason this last round of churches broke from the PCUSA to ECO. Although in the case of Highland Park, the precipitating crisis was the Presbytery mandate that the new pastor would have to come from one of 6 designated seminaries coupled with a state court ruling in a case involving the ECUSA.


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## Philip (Mar 28, 2015)

I want to be a little more charitable than that, Edward. I know a number of folks who are going into ECO or are considering it, and many of them are good Christian people. I would rather describe it as an evangelical reformed-ish egalitarian denomination. 

Generally the churches that have joined it were ones that had pastors with the attitude "I won't leave until they drop the apostles' creed" who retired in the last 5-10 years. These pastors passed the baton to a generation that was still broadly conservative-evangelical but without the nostalgia for the PCUSA that was.

So yes, ECO is less conservative than the EPC/PCA, but it's not as liberal as one would think.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 28, 2015)

Does the ECO have women elders and TEs? How are they are the basics which Machen took a stand on, etc?


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## Edward (Mar 28, 2015)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Does the ECO have women elders and TEs?



"Egalitarian Ministry:
We believe in unleashing the ministry gifts of women, men, and every ethnic group." 
Who We Are | ECO Presbyterian

" Elders and deacons who have been properly trained can be authorized to celebrate the sacraments in various settings. Therefore , not only can communion be celebrated in these various expressions of church but, if someone comes to faith through these expressions of church, they can be baptized by the officers who are charged with shepherding these groups"
http://ecopres.webfactional.com/sta...urces/Essential Tenets/understanding-eco1.pdf

"Deacons
–
Deacons may serve as part of a board or be commissioned on an annual basis. Since deacons do not have oversight within a congregation, a congregation may choose to continue to elect deacons in congregational meetings or can choose to have the session appoint deacons"

You might also want to look at the paragraph "Church is redefined"


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## Philip (Mar 28, 2015)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Does the ECO have women elders and TEs?



Yes. Hence the egalitarian label.



NaphtaliPress said:


> How are they are the basics which Machen took a stand on, etc?



The ones I've spoken with would take Machen's side. They would simply say they were trying to be a witness within the mainline. Naturally, I (and most on this board) differ with them, but I know one older pastor and church historian who argued that his role in the PCUSA was similar to that of the Puritans within the CofE before 1662. The most recent departures are simply a testament to the failure of that effort.


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## Edward (Mar 28, 2015)

Philip said:


> I want to be a little more charitable than that, Edward.



It's not difficult to be more charitable than me, so others may come up with more diplomatic formulations. But my conclusions aren't inaccurate. While I disagree with some of the EPC positions, I do respect them as a body. I'd draw a rather deep line between EPC and ECO.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 28, 2015)

<---PCUSA------ECO--------------EPC-----PCA-ARP----OPC-----RPCNA-------Micro's of various stripes-->


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## Edward (Mar 28, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> <---PCUSA------ECO--------------EPC-----PCA-ARP----OPC-----RPCNA-------Micro's of various stripes-->



Hope this displays as intended in most browsers:

<PCUSA)----(ECO)----------(....EPC....)--(............PCA...........)
--------------------------------------------------(ARP)----------(OPC)---------(RPCNA)-------(Micros)-->

Although I wouldn't argue with anyone that asserted that PCUSA didn't even belong on the scale any more.


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## Verkehrsteilnehmer (Mar 29, 2015)

For one particular PCUSA congregation, the reason for moving to the ECO rather than EPC was that they wanted to keep their woman "minister". If you move to EPC (or any NAPARC, obviously) you have to can the woman. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that what I heard in this particular case.
Dave Maurmann


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## Steve Curtis (Mar 29, 2015)

Depends on the presbytery - some will allow women officers, others will not.


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## SRoper (Mar 29, 2015)

Verkehrsteilnehmer said:


> For one particular PCUSA congregation, the reason for moving to the ECO rather than EPC was that they wanted to keep their woman "minister". If you move to EPC (or any NAPARC, obviously) you have to can the woman. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that what I heard in this particular case.
> Dave Maurmann



EPC isn't in NAPARC, and some of their presbyteries allow female ministers.


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## Edward (Mar 29, 2015)

Verkehrsteilnehmer said:


> If you move to EPC (or any NAPARC, obviously) you have to can the woman. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that what I heard in this particular case.



Not true as to EPC. And my recollection was that they were making non-geographical presbytery arrangements for churches in presbyteries opposed to female elders.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 29, 2015)

I have a friend who I went to seminary with, who is a female and a minister (you have to know a little bit of my background to understand that  ), whose church went EPC and she transferred her credentials into a non-geographic Presbytery.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 29, 2015)

I was engaged in a conversation with an attorney yesterday regarding the issue of women's ordination. My observation was that the culture went egalitarian, the mainline followed a decade or two later, and then the evangelicals brought up the rear.

During my seminary years in a school catering predominately to PCUSA candidates for ordination, the egalitarianism was pretty much a settled issue by the mid 70s. Evangelicals took a bit longer, but fell into place.

The general culture embraced a permissive stance on the issue of homosexuality, followed by the mainlines, and it looks as if the evangelicals are following form by bringing up the rear.

The use of higher criticism will pretty much inevitably lead conservative churches to follow more progressive ones. So, if you want to know where broad evangelicalism is heading, just look at the trajectory of the mainlines.


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## Nicholas Perella (Mar 30, 2015)

DMcFadden said:


> So, if you want to know where broad evangelicalism is heading, just look at the trajectory of the mainlines.



Great point. Also by reading the Daily Newspaper one will find their trajectory.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 30, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> a non-geographic Presbytery



Is such a concept even possible? How can you have a Presbytery that is non-geographic. Do the members (to paraphrase John Wesley) claim that, "My Presbytery is the world!"


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 30, 2015)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > a non-geographic Presbytery
> ...




American Presbyterian churches even have this odd habit of naming Presbyteries after attributes, parts of the Ordo Salutis, events in the Bible, etc... I have always found it odd that we did not follow the traditional Presbyterian way of naming our Presbyteries after the geographic locations they inhabit.


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## Edward (Mar 30, 2015)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Is such a concept even possible? How can you have a Presbytery that is non-geographic.



I haven't followed the EPC as closely in the last few years as I did earlier, so I'll take correction or clarification if I get some of this wrong, but when there was a large wave from the PCUSA, they set up a couple of nationwide transitional presbyteries while they sorted out what they were going to do with the women elders. They eventually arrived at local option by church and by presbytery. But if you had a church that wanted a female preacher, for example, in a presbytery that did not, the solution would be to allow the church to transfer to an adjacent presbytery which allowed for that. 

As you might expect for a fairly small denomination with a nationwide presence, some of the presbyteries encompassed huge areas. So depending on transportation hubs and roadways, it might not be any more difficult to get to a presbytery meeting in the alternate choice. 

Even in the PCA, some of the Presbyteries are quite large. The one of which my church is a member is a little over 500 mile from the easternmost church to the westernmost, and about 425 miles from northern most to southern most.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Mar 31, 2015)

Edward said:


> Reformed Covenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Is such a concept even possible? How can you have a Presbytery that is non-geographic.
> ...



Edward is correct. See the EPC Book of Government 5-8. When our church first joined the EPC, we might have to drive to Texas for Presbytery meetings as the geographic Presbytery was so large.


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## Calvinbeza (Mar 31, 2015)

Yes I think the EPC has non-geographic Presbytery for those churches with woman ministers. In the EPC there are conservartive Presbyteries similar like PCA. Logically these joined EPC in the 1980s. Churches with woman pastors joined recently. The EPC is composed of several groups, this groups joined EPC in different date, In the first founding date in the 1980s(more conservative), in the 1990s-200s, and in the recent years(these are liberals, with women pastors elders, deacons)


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 31, 2015)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Reformed Covenanter said:
> ...



Right. I can see what that makes sense from their point of view, though, of course, it does seem to be a divergence from historic Presbyterian order.


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## Edward (Mar 31, 2015)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Right. I can see what that makes sense from their point of view, though, of course, it does seem to be a divergence from historic Presbyterian order.



Perhaps Geographic/non geographic presbyteries should be a different thread. Proximity was important when horseback was the best mode of transportation. It is perhaps less important as we transform to widespread and inexpensive video conferencing.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 1, 2015)

Edward said:


> Reformed Covenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Right. I can see what that makes sense from their point of view, though, of course, it does seem to be a divergence from historic Presbyterian order.
> ...



Yes, possibly; there was a discussion about parishes about a year ago in which a similar point about geography/modern transportation was made.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 1, 2015)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > a non-geographic Presbytery
> ...



I was possibly confusing John Wesley with William Lloyd Garrison. I think the form said "The world is my parish", while the latter said "My country is the world".


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 1, 2015)

Video conferencing is one thing; video courts another. Or am I looking for a distinction without a difference?


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## Edward (Apr 1, 2015)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Video conferencing is one thing; video courts another. Or am I looking for a distinction without a difference?


In the civil courts, there is a slow move toward video conferencing and teleconferncing for hearings. Depositions may be videotaped for play back in court. Probably an idea that needs more discussion and thought. 

I am not sympathetic to arguments based on tradition (which you haven't made, but others might).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 1, 2015)

Not to get too far off the OP, but there is something about meeting face-to-face that video conferencing can never replicate. 

I know of a case where a man was allowed to do an exam via skype and it was found out later he had all the answers tape to the wall behind his computer (extreme example I know).


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## Calvinbeza (Apr 1, 2015)

íthanks for the conversation to everybody


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## Calvinbeza (Apr 3, 2015)

God bless you


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