# Southern Baptists and Calvinism



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 28, 2004)

[b:44752a9d98]The chaos of my denomination makes my head spin[/b:44752a9d98]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the people in my Southern Baptist denomination and their beliefs. I will tell you that the majority of them are Arminian dispensationalist, but if you were to ask them the majority would claim to be 3 or 4-point Calvinist(if they know anything about calvinism, a lot of them probably don't even know who Calvin is). They usually reject the point of limited atonement or irresistible grace or both. However, one point they all seem to agree on is total depravity, and I just don't get it! 

Total depravity states that because of original sin we are incapable of doing anything good because our total being has been depraved. We can be paralleled to God in a sense. While God is free and has all the mechanical ability to do evil, he still cannot do evil because of his good nature/character. All Southern Baptist in general would agree with that. Now on the other end of the stick the same situation applies to mankind except it is the complete polar opposite. Just like God, man is free and has all the mechanical ability to do good, but (due to original sin) cannot do good because of his evil nature/charater.

So God can’t do evil because of his character and we can’t do good because of our character. Basically, what I’m getting to is this. If an unregenerate is dead to do anything morally good, then how could he make the greatest moral decision ever? The depraved mind could never desire such a pure motive.

[color=green:44752a9d98]EDIT: Title Clarity (fredtgreco)[/color:44752a9d98]


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: The chaos of my denomination makes my head spi...*

[quote:f02cab6fb1="ABondSlaveofChristJesus"]I've been thinking a lot about the people in my Southern Baptist denomination and their beliefs. I will tell you that the majority of them are Arminian dispensationalist, but if you were to ask them the majority would claim to be 3 or 4-point Calvinist. They usually rejecting the point of limited atonement or irresistible grace or both. However, one point they all seem to agree on is total depravity. 

Total depravity states that because of original sin we are incapable of doing anything good, because our total being has been depraved. We can be paralleled to God in a sense. While God is free and has all the mechanical ability to do evil, he still cannot do evil because of his good nature/character. All Southern Baptist in general would agree with that. Now on the other end of the stick the same situation applies to mankind except it is the complete polar opposite. 
So God can't do evil because of his character and we can't do anything good because of our character. So basically, what I'm getting at is this. If an unregenerate is dead to do anything good, then how could he make the greatest moral decision ever? The depraved character would never let one contemplate such a pure motive. 
[/quote:f02cab6fb1]

Morning Tim,
A few items in need of clearity:
[quote:f02cab6fb1] the majority would claim to be 3 or 4-point Calvinist.[/quote:f02cab6fb1] There is no such thing as a 4 pointer or three pointer. The D.O.G. are situated much like dominoes; one falls, all follow. By not embracing limited atonement, by default the atonement becomes unlimited; Christ died for even the reprobate. Christ died for men whom will never come unto him...........

[quote:f02cab6fb1] he still cannot do evil because of his good nature/character.[/quote:f02cab6fb1]

I would say that the reason that God is not capable of evil is because of His [b:f02cab6fb1]holiness[/b:f02cab6fb1]. It is much more than just [i:f02cab6fb1]good[/i:f02cab6fb1].

[quote:f02cab6fb1]So basically, what I'm getting at is this. If an unregenerate is dead to do anything good, then how could he make the greatest moral decision ever?[/quote:f02cab6fb1]

Much like Lazarus, dead men do not walk. They just lie there and stink. Dead men do not make moral decisions; they do not make any decisions in regards to things that have life. God first must call (as he did in the case of Lazarus). The call is regeneratory. Lazarus had life; now able to respond. The decision was not his. His morality was devine. Do you see the order in contrast to your question?


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: The chaos of my denomination makes my head spi...*

Morning Tim,
A few items in need of clearity:
[quote:af15377e25]There is no such thing as a 4 pointer or three pointer. The D.O.G. are situated much like dominoes; one falls, all follow. By not embracing limited atonement, by default the atonement becomes unlimited; Christ died for even the reprobate. Christ died for men whom will never come unto him..[/quote:af15377e25]

Right Scott, I agree, thats why I said I would call them Arminian. However, they would call themselves 4 or 3 pointers. Many sincerely believe 3 or 4 points, but only because of ignorance and chaotic t heology. Most are too ignorant to see how not believing in one contadicts all.


[quote:af15377e25]I would say that the reason that God is not capable of evil is because of His [b:af15377e25]holiness[/b:af15377e25]. It is much more than just [i:af15377e25]good[/i:af15377e25].,[/quote:af15377e25]

Depends on your definition of good. Jesus said none are good except the Father. 


[quote:af15377e25]Much like Lazarus, dead men do not walk. They just lie there and stink. Dead men do not make moral decisions; they do not make any decisions in regards to things that have life. God first must call (as he did in the case of Lazarus). The call is regeneratory. Lazarus had life; now able to respond. The decision was not his. His morality was devine. Do you see the order in contrast to your question?[/quote:af15377e25]

Thats exactly what i'm saying, I'm glad we agree. I just wish I could help them see this, because it seems so simple.


Joshua, I did get your email. I'll try to shoot you a response soon.


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 28, 2004)

Tim,
Good point on your usage of good.


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## pastorway (Jul 28, 2004)

I agree that if you really understand Total Depravity then the rest falls into place - but I was a [i:a46a29476c]four pointer[/i:a46a29476c] for YEARS. Sincerely, I held to four of the points. Now would you rather I hold to four out of five, or reject all five together?

We must allow for growth in grace and work to teach the Word so that people do thoroughly understand it!

Phillip


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 28, 2004)

Also a good point Phillip. However, nonetheless, the dominoes still tumble under this rationale. That is the point I was trying to make. You are right though, there needs to be grace in regards to the learning curve.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 29, 2004)

[quote:381e1a09a3] but I was a four pointer for YEARS. [/quote:381e1a09a3]

I was a confused Arminian at one point as well!


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## fredtgreco (Jul 29, 2004)

Well, I was never an Arminian :smug_b:

Oh yeah, that's right, I was a Dispensationalist. :no:

Oh, no, I was also a Papist. :no: :no:


Ohh, I was also a pagan! :no: :no: :no:

Darn, can't win for losing.


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## JohnV (Jul 29, 2004)

Fred:
So many was-es, I hope you don't forget what you am.


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## FrozenChosen (Jul 29, 2004)

I would go so far as to say not only do the four remaining points crumble without the fifth, but that without the other four doctrines, one cannot stand by itself. This is the double-flaw of modern evangelical teaching.


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## Ranger (Jul 30, 2004)

Just to put Southern Baptists in a somewhat better (still wrong) light, I think that the vast majority of pastors are Calvinistic (even if they only claim 4 points). And the leadership is strongly 5-point (aka Al Mohler). The congregations of Baptist churches are neither Arminian or Calvinistic because we are too busy trying to make them feel good about themselves to teach theology (just kidding!). I think your average Baptist is turned off by hearing the phrase Calvinism, but if you start asking what they believe almost all Baptists believe in Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints, from there most believe in both Unconditional Election and irresistible Grace because Baptist churches preach a high enough view of God that few would question that He has the final say in salvation. Most Southern Baptist congregants do not believe in Limited Atonement, but I have found that even without my prodding many of the people in my congregation still do.

In all reality, I work for a 2000 member SBC church in Plano, TX which is a pretty standard demographic of Southern Baptists nationwide.  Probably 25% of the congregation would strongly support all 5 points, 50% would hold at least 4 and 20% would hold at least 2. There MAY be a 5% who are strongly Arminian, but they are rare.

You must realize that even though the 50s and 60s did corrupt many Baptist churches, we are still strong in sticking to historical Baptist beliefs and a simple read of any Baptist Faith and Message or the Abstract of Principles shows that we are 5 pointers. Great Southern Baptist leaders such as B.H. Carroll, L.R. Scarborough and others were strong 5 pointers and considered anyone who thought differently a heretic. 

The denomination has moved back towards its roots especially since the Conservative Revolution in the late 70s.


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## Ranger (Jul 30, 2004)

Here are some quotes from the 2000 BF&M that show that the leadership still supports Calvinism.

[quote:b38fba6788]"Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God." [/quote:b38fba6788]

supportive of monergism

[quote:b38fba6788]"Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer."[/quote:b38fba6788]

Christ died for believers - i.e. Limited Atonement.

[quote:b38fba6788]"A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."[/quote:b38fba6788]

Once again monergistic suggesting that the Holy Spirit provokes faith

[quote:b38fba6788]"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners."[/quote:b38fba6788]

Unconditional Election

[quote:b38fba6788]"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end."[/quote:b38fba6788]

Perseverance of the Saints.

Even though I do not agree with much of what Southern Baptists have to offer, and consider myself to be a Reformed Baptist who works at a SBC church, I still believe that even the 2000 BF&M supports Calvinism, and that if pressed most Baptists are Calvinistic. I really wish the SBC would get rid of these weak confessions though and come up with an updated version of the 1689 LBC which is MUCH better!


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## Don (Jul 31, 2004)

In my experience as a former Southern Baptist in south MS, most of the people I knew (including family) held to a "total depravity" but it was not the same as Calvinism's total depravity. They wouldn't go so far as to say that man is dead and can't make that "decision". Most believed in "a perserverance of the saints" (once saved always saved) but again it was much different than that of Calvinism. It was much more antinomian. Assurance was gained more or less by looking back to your "sinners prayer". Many were very antagonistic towards Calvinists.


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## smhbbag (Jul 31, 2004)

Most I have talked to in the SBC world do hold to Total Depravity and Preservation of the Saints.

The only way any of them would ever claim to hold to U, L, or I is if they had a radical misunderstanding of what the terms meant and thus "agreed" with them. I don't think I've EVER met anyone who was a genuine 3 or 4 pointer, with a good, real understanding of the doctrines.


On another note, I do see them as being entirely consistent at least with total depravity......they recognize that man is, naturally, spiritually dead with no natural ability to do works acceptable to God (including coming to faith). BUT - here's the kicker - they will say that although every man is in this dead and enslaved state, God grants sufficient grace to each one of them to be able to genuinely choose to have faith (or not have faith - the grace is not always effective). "Yes, apart from grace, every man is incapable of choosing God and hopelessly bound and lost in his sin....but God grants sufficient grace to every man to be able to make that decision." Chief proof-text is Titus 2:11. I call this view "partial regeneration" =) .......maybe the SBC's in my area are just weird - anybody else run into this? I do all the time.

So, they will agree with me all day long on total depravity - but not on grace. And as far as I can tell, their view on grace is internally consistent (certainly not in line with the scriptures though). The dominoes don't have to fall after just the point of total depravity. After accepting T and I they have to accept the rest to be consistent. 

I do think if you start with the "U" dominoe - all the other points must necessarily follow - the dominoe system works if that is the first one that they accept. eh, i'm rambling now =)


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## Ranger (Jul 31, 2004)

Maybe it is a location thing, or maybe I just have a good church. There were even some parents who came and talked to me because they were worried whenever I mentioned to some students that I was questioning "L" (and I think that would be the point that most Baptists disagree with). I think a good part of it is that Baptist churches focus too much on application and far too little on theology. Baptists send missionaries and are willing to serve, yet most know not the God they do it for. But, with that said, the Baptists have an advantage over many other denominations due to their respect for Scripture. Most Baptists are willing to work through Ephesians 1-2, Romans 9, John 6, etc. with you and in the end are willing to concede differing viewpoints to Scripture. I have not had the same fortune when teaching youth from certain other denominations, since they seem more concerned with what they feel about God over against what Scripture says.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 23, 2004)

I join Tim's sentiment, having come from the Bible Belt myself where he lives. Most SBC churches are staunchly Arminian in both their approach to theology (but they wouldn't call it theology as that is an evil thing - all they need is Jesus!) and to worship.

I have been personally "cut-off" by many in my home Church as an outcast and in error for becoming a "Calvinist" and Reformed. I am home visiting this week and my home Church visit was less than encouraging - in fact, it was downright sickening some of the things I heard people say in their college department. Also, the fact that my former close friends have now cut me off in both friendship and fellowship makes me feel that I am simply not "wanted" by the majority of SBC people. Therefore, I have no intention of ever serving in an SBC church as an elder, and I don't see that changing any time soon.


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