# Jesus baptized by John INTO (εἰς) the Jordan?



## Davidius (Dec 15, 2008)

I've begun to read through Mark in Greek, and in verse 9 I came across the preposition εἰς used to describe Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. Does this support immersion? I would have expected ἐν. 



> ΚΑΙ ΕΓΕΝΕΤΟ ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I've begun to read through Mark in Greek, and in verse 9 I came across the preposition εἰς used to describe Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. Does this support immersion? I would have expected ἐν.
> 
> 
> 
> > ΚΑΙ ΕΓΕΝΕΤΟ ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου.



David,

The different prepositions used of this particular baptism don't indicate immersion, as one of the other Synoptics (can't recall which) uses <apo> rather than <ek> to describe Jesus coming "away from" (not "out of") the water. Also, John is described as having gone "into" <eis> the water with Jesus, which can't indicate immersion, but location.

I taught a sunday school on this subject back in 2004, and can send you the notes if you like. Dr. Dale's books were of particular assistance in that study:

Classic Baptism : An Inquiry into the Meaning of the Word Baptizo As Determined by the Usage of Classical Greek Writers

I'm sure you'd enjoy the read.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Romans922 (Dec 15, 2008)

Jesus was baptized with John's baptism, which is different than Christian baptism (which we do in worship today). Thus, the baptism in which Jesus was baptized with does not show what mode we ought to baptize with today.

As for a word study, I would agree with Adam.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 15, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Jesus was baptized with John's baptism, which is different than Christian baptism (which we do in worship today). Thus, the baptism in which Jesus was baptized with does not show what mode we ought to baptize with today.
> 
> As for a word study, I would agree with Adam.



Rev. Barnes,

This may obtain no doctrinal import, but I have a question:

Do you think that Peter and Andrew (for instance) received Christian baptism? If only John's then why were they not rebaptized?

Cheers,

Adam


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## fredtgreco (Dec 15, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I've begun to read through Mark in Greek, and in verse 9 I came across the preposition εἰς used to describe Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. Does this support immersion? I would have expected ἐν.
> 
> 
> 
> > ΚΑΙ ΕΓΕΝΕΤΟ ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου.



David,

εἰς is preposition implying motion toward or relationship toward. So it does not have to mean "into" as "inside" but has the regular connotation of "up toward" "motion into or toward." So for example L&S cites its use in Homer as 

εἰς ὦπα ἰδέσθαι - [FONT=&quot]to look in the face[/FONT]

which we would never assume means one went inside another's face. It is a flexible word, as much as ἐκ is in "motion away from."


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## KMK (Dec 15, 2008)

But it _could_ mean 'into', correct?


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## Whitefield (Dec 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> But it _could_ mean 'into', correct?



Yes, and could be used with "he walked into (eis) the stream, which was only ankle deep".


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## fredtgreco (Dec 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> But it _could_ mean 'into', correct?



Yes, just as ἐκ could mean either "out of" or away from."


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## Christusregnat (Dec 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> But it _could_ mean 'into', correct?



Ken,

Indeed, it could mean into. Also, John went "into" the water. They also both came "out of" the water, which one of the Evangelists uses the term "apo" for; or, away from, helping to shape the interpretation of the preposition "eis".

Cheers,

Adam


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## fredtgreco (Dec 15, 2008)

Here are a couple of helpful charts I found quick on the web. I know I have a better one somewhere.

http://www.ancientpath.net/Bible/Resources/NT_Resources/res_preposisitions_a.htm


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## Romans922 (Dec 15, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was baptized with John's baptism, which is different than Christian baptism (which we do in worship today). Thus, the baptism in which Jesus was baptized with does not show what mode we ought to baptize with today.
> ...



I might be mistaken (this is not my area of expertise or anything), I assume they received Christian Baptism since it was commanded by Christ to be done. Does Scripture have to tell of everyone's baptism? 

Maybe I should ask (because maybe I am wrong) if John's baptism is Christian baptism? Is there a difference?


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## Christusregnat (Dec 15, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> I might be mistaken (this is not my area of expertise or anything), I assume they received Christian Baptism since it was commanded by Christ to be done. Does Scripture have to tell of everyone's baptism?
> 
> Maybe I should ask (because maybe I am wrong) if John's baptism is Christian baptism? Is there a difference?



Rev. Barnes,

Calvin discusses the mater in the Institutes, and concludes that John's baptism is the same as Christian baptism, and therefore, Peter's baptism by John was not invalid. I found his arguments compelling at the time, and was interested in your thoughts.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Romans922 (Dec 15, 2008)

I have no thoughts. Maybe I should read more. Although it would make sense since the Westminster divines used Scripture proofs of John's baptism with regard to Christian Baptism in Chapter 28.



> Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ (Mat_28:19), not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church (1Co_12:13); but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace (Rom_4:11 with Col_2:11, Col_2:12), of his ingrafting into Christ (Rom_6:5; Gal_3:27), of regeneration (Tit_3:5), *of remission of sins (Mar_1:4), *and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life (Rom_6:3, Rom_6:4). Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world (Mat_28:19, Mat_28:20).




I've always been taught (and apparently never came up in my learning) that Christian Baptism is different than John's baptism.


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## greenbaggins (Dec 15, 2008)

Whitefield said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > But it _could_ mean 'into', correct?
> ...



Furthermore, the banks of the Jordan are typically pretty steep for such a shallow stream. Therefore, you would have to stand in it to use the water at all. I agree, however, that the Jordan is pretty shallow for immersion.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 15, 2008)

greenbaggins said:


> Furthermore, the banks of the Jordan are typically pretty steep for such a shallow stream. Therefore, you would have to stand in it to use the water at all. I agree, however, that the Jordan is pretty shallow for immersion.



Forgive me if I'm prying without cause, but are you speaking of the modern day condition of the Jordan? If so, are you assuming that the topography is the same today as then? Just curious... 

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 07:07:08 EST-----



Romans922 said:


> I have no thoughts. Maybe I should read more. Although it would make sense since the Westminster divines used Scripture proofs of John's baptism with regard to Christian Baptism in Chapter 28.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing that usage of John's Baptism in our Confession. It appears to me that the usage made confirms Calvin's point.

This may be fodder for another thread, but I wonder sometimes if the usage made of Scripture should be considered part of being "confessional" as well as adopting certain positions. For instance, I have heard Deuteronomy 28 used as a "typical" passage, when its parallel, Leviticus 26, is cited by the divines to show God's curses on sin in this life. Thus, I would argue that seeing Deut 28 as typcal is a non-confessional position. Perhaps for another thread...

Cheers,


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## greenbaggins (Dec 15, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> > Furthermore, the banks of the Jordan are typically pretty steep for such a shallow stream. Therefore, you would have to stand in it to use the water at all. I agree, however, that the Jordan is pretty shallow for immersion.
> ...



Possibly. I realize the difference in age. However, one would probably logically assume that in Jesus' day, the river was even shallower than it is today. As to the depth of the banks, I'm not sure how long it takes for a significant difference to develop. I would imagine that even 2000 years wouldn't do a whole lot, however.


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## KMK (Dec 15, 2008)

greenbaggins said:


> I agree, however, that the Jordan is pretty shallow for immersion.



As someone who has baptized people by immersion, it only takes about 18 inches to do so. It's convenient for the water to be waist deep but not necessary.

This has not bearing at all on the meaning of 'eis', however. I do not desire to take the thread off topic.


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## timmopussycat (Dec 16, 2008)

greenbaggins said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > greenbaggins said:
> ...



Actually 2000 years can do a lot to the depth of a river depending on the ground under it. And let's remember that the book of Joshua notes that at certain times of the year the Jordan's water level rose dramatically so that it flooded its banks at a point near Jericho.


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## Reformed Baptist (Dec 16, 2008)

This is interesting Jordan River - LoveToKnow 1911


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## Thomas2007 (Dec 16, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> I've always been taught (and apparently never came up in my learning) that Christian Baptism is different than John's baptism.



Were you raised a Baptist? I was and that is what I was always taught, as well. I was rather surprised when I read your first post on the subject.


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## JohnOwen007 (Dec 16, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I came across the preposition εἰς used to describe Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. Does this support immersion? I would have expected ἐν.



Actually, David, the _koine_ Greek around the time of the NT saw εἰς being often used in a very similar, if not identical, way to ἐν. In other words, assimilation was happening. Hence, one must be careful when coming across an εἰς that the context is observed.

Vale Davidius socius meus.


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## Romans922 (Dec 17, 2008)

Thomas2007 said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > I've always been taught (and apparently never came up in my learning) that Christian Baptism is different than John's baptism.
> ...



I was raised RC and then baptist, then reformed. Now a pastor who doesn't know the difference between John's Baptism and Chrisitan Baptism.  May God help me...


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