# Retirement - a western invention but how do we use it?



## Eoghan (May 18, 2019)

I am currently "between jobs" as they put it. Getting on a little I was undergoing training as a volunteer minibus driver and one young fellow asked if I was retired. My reply was that I wasn't but I was kinda trying it on for size. It made me realise that what I am doing now, prior to retiring, will probably be what I am doing after retiring.
It made me wonder about other folks attitude to retirement which is pretty much a twentieth century, first world dilemma.

Anyway, I said to my wife that I was looking for my fishing tackle and her reply rocked me back on my heels. "You are not going fishing while I am working" She works weekdays as a childminder from home. What she forgets is that I will retire a few years before her and fishing will be part of the curriculum. 

Anyway, as time passes I am adjusting to being time rich and cash poor. *What are the activities others anticipate doing or have started doing? *


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## Eoghan (May 18, 2019)

I should perhaps add that I am actively seeking work and have an interview next week. I am _not_ resigned to getting under my wife's feet.


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## Edward (May 18, 2019)

I lasted 6 months before I started looking. It took a while but work has been pretty steady the last 2.5 years


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## VictorBravo (May 18, 2019)

I suspect I will always do some kind of work. We have fishing figured out--my wife goes with me whenever I have time for it. Her work is primarily keeping the home in order and the animals happy. 

Strictly speaking, God has blessed us tremendously: our passive income pretty much matches our monthly expenses, which are apparently quite low compared to most folks I know. That doesn't mean retirement. It means that we have plenty of buffer to allow us to do things that interest us rather than scramble to keep afloat--I do know what that feels like.

Nevertheless, I still put in 40-50 hour weeks in my profession, mostly because I still get a thrill out of it. But I see that going down to maybe 30 hours over the next year or two so I'd have more time for other local opportunities to help the confused and the lost.


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## Pergamum (May 19, 2019)

If I recover and become healthy again I never want to stop working until I am 110 and die peacefully in my sleep.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (May 19, 2019)

Brother, good question! I've heard many times that we may retire from our normal calling of our daily job, but that doesn't mean we stop working. That means we are now more free to serve the Lord in various ways we couldn't before. Should we retire and collect seashells primarily, or should we put that extra time to use and work for the Lord in serving the church and/or doing good in other ways? Biblically, I don't see any evidence of our ceasing to work until we die. We may cease from one kind of work, but that frees us to do another. Grace be with you.

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## Pergamum (May 19, 2019)

Here is a quote from Cicero's work, On Old Age:

"Those… who allege that old age is devoid of useful activity… are like those who would say that the pilot does nothing in the sailing of his ship, because, while others are climbing the masts, or running about the gangways, or working at the pumps, he sits quietly in the stern and simply holds the tiller. He may not be doing what younger members of the crew are doing, but what he does is better and much more important. It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment; in these qualities old age is usually not … poorer, but is even richer."

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## Eoghan (May 19, 2019)

I am publishing my Bible studies as commentaries on Amazon (pdf books)
Selling Christian books in a coffe shop
Selling tablet, home baking and a few other items in the same store
Volunteer driving for a rural transport charity
Doing more arts and crafts stuff


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## ZackF (May 19, 2019)

I don’t think about retirement very often. Unless some millions drop in my lap, retirement is at least a couple of decades off.

Like in their regular work life, I think Christians in general have a wide range of morally acceptable options in their retirement. The quality of their finances and health will eliminate many otherwise acceptable things. The same goes if their spouses are in poor health. If they are predeceased by their spouse that will make a difference in choice as well. 

If I live long enough to see retirement God will provide things to do.

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## OPC'n (May 19, 2019)

I'm sure my physical body will want to retire, but I'm pretty sure my brain will not comply with retirement. I'm hoping I will be able to work until my death. I won't do well mentally if I retire.


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## jwithnell (May 19, 2019)

A person perfects a set of skills, becomes established in a field, then throws it away to play golf, bingo, bass fishing, whatever? That has never made sense. I can see pulling back from the rat race, but skilled work feeds the mind and belly.


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## earl40 (May 19, 2019)

jwithnell said:


> A person perfects a set of skills, becomes established in a field, then throws it away to play golf, bingo, bass fishing, whatever? That has never made sense. I can see pulling back from the rat race, but skilled work feeds the mind and belly.




Write the same thing after working 35 or 40 or so years doing the same thing day in and day out.  I only wish I will be able to golf or bass fish when I retire.

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## TheOldCourse (May 19, 2019)

I don't know that I would say that retirement is a Western invention, but that it is something achievable (or even a "right") for almost everyone across all social strata is certainly a novelty. It is probably better to compare retirement to the situation of the gentry and aristocrats of eras past, whose estates or positions allowed them sufficient income to live well without having to concern themselves with much personal labor. The freedom from servile labors afforded to nobles and officials once they had distinguished themselves and reached a sufficient social position was undoubtedly the goal of many of those born into the upper classes even as it is the goal of so many men and women today. While most retirees today may not be in the "1%" in developed nations, they could be considered as such from a historical perspective. But even the common elders in most societies found their roles eventually change from manual labor to governance, teaching, etc.

Accordingly, it is not wrong to enjoy the fruits of a God-given abundance in your old age. Of course there are new temptations associated with that station in life that must be guarded against, but Christians are free to retire and enjoy fishing, golf, travel, etc. They should, of course, not then be unproductive in their social, familial, and spiritual life, but if God has seen fit to relieve one from living by the sweat of their brow before their passing, that is a blessing.

I, for one, do hope that the Lord grants me the opportunity in the (distant) future. My work is a blessing, provides abundantly for my family, and allows me the privilege of helping to support the ministry of Word and Sacrament, but it is also wearisome mentally and takes a physical toll. I don't know if I would even be capable of doing it well into my old age. Indeed, I hope that I am able to retire early and healthy enough that I will still be able to enjoy physical activities like golf or fishing or playing with grandchildren if the Lord provides them.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

You should only "retire" when you too ill or infirm to work. I am in my 30s, but I am currently too infirm to work for any sustained period. If I had my health and strength, I would work until the day I die even if I should live to 980. God has put us on the earth to work and idle hands are the Devil's playthings. Thus, we have no excuse for not working unless we have a legitimate providential reason for not doing so. Desiring a 20-year sabbatical at the end of your life (funded by hard-working taxpayers) is not a legitimate reason to stop working.

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## TheOldCourse (May 19, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> You should only "retire" when you too ill or infirm to work. I am in my 30s, but I am currently too infirm to work for any sustained period. If I had my health and strength, I would work until the day I die even if I should live to 980. God has put us on the earth to work and idle hands are the Devil's playthings. Thus, we have no excuse for not working unless we have a legitimate providential reason for not doing so. Desiring a 20-year sabbatical at the end of your life (funded by hard-working taxpayers) is not a legitimate reason to stop working.



Retirement may not imply idleness. Furthermore, that God puts us on earth to work does not also preclude the Scriptures as representing both rest from our labors and wealth (which alleviates the necessity of hard labors) as blessings God sometimes grants to his people. While true idleness is never the calling of man, the heavy labors that we toil under are a curse and when the Lord allows us in this life a partial relief from that curse we should be thankful. The Scriptures represent temporal prosperity as desirable and good, even if far less to be desired than the treasures of the Kingdom of God.

Perhaps retirement is funded by tax-payers in Northern Ireland, but in the US it's provided by Social Security (which came primarily out of your own paycheck) and your own savings and investments.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

TheOldCourse said:


> Retirement may not imply idleness.



It may not, but it often does. I have noticed that many retirees become busybodies who idle away their time in foolish gossip. If someone may retire from their ordinary employment and find something else to do, then fair play to them. 



TheOldCourse said:


> Perhaps retirement is funded by tax-payers in Northern Ireland, but in the US it's provided by Social Security (which came primarily out of your own paycheck) and your own savings and investments.



You are probably correct on that point. I think that the UK is something similar to the USA, though I would be amazed if even a lifetime of social security payments over here could cover a 20+ year retirement. I think that our government is going to raise the age of retirement from 65 to 67 in the near future.


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## TheOldCourse (May 19, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> It may not, but it often does. I have noticed that many retirees become busybodies who idle away their time in foolish gossip. If someone may retire from their ordinary employment and find something else to do, then fair play to them.



This is also true of many housewives, and yet it certainly isn't the case that housewifery is unlawful. Many retirees I know are very fruitful, helping with grandchildren, active in works of mercy, avid readers of Scripture and works of divinity, etc. Every station of life comes with it's own characteristic temptations. 




> You are probably correct on that point. I think that the UK is something similar to the USA, though I would be amazed if even a lifetime of social security payments over here could cover a 20+ year retirement. I think that our government is going to raise the age of retirement from 65 to 67 in the near future.



Yes, in the US the government sometimes has to "prop up" social security as well with additional funds. They've changed retirement ages over recent decades too. Nevertheless the primary funding for the program is paycheck deductions and that is what determines how much you receive.

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## bookslover (May 19, 2019)

I retired at the age of 58 at the end of 2010. I love it. I don't miss the work and I sure don't miss the politics of the job.

What do I do? I read. I listen to music. I travel to my favorite bookshops and record shops. I occasionally have a meal out. I keep the house (sort of) and care for my disabled adult son, who lives with me. And I've faithfully attended the same church since 2004 (I'll celebrate my 40th anniversary as a Christian next year). And all this since my wife's death in 2013.

I'm not lonely and only occasionally think about re-marrying which, in the end, I'll probably never do. At 66, I'm set in my ways and like my routines, so it would be hard to break in a new wife (LOL).

Thanks be to God, I have sufficient retirement income for my needs, as long as I live financially modestly and don't become extravagant, which I won't.

Praise God, I have a good life and have no reason to complain.

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## OPC'n (May 19, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> You should only "retire" when you too ill or infirm to work. I am in my 30s, but I am currently too infirm to work for any sustained period. If I had my health and strength, I would work until the day I die even if I should live to 980. God has put us on the earth to work and idle hands are the Devil's playthings. Thus, we have no excuse for not working unless we have a legitimate providential reason for not doing so. Desiring a 20-year sabbatical at the end of your life (funded by hard-working taxpayers) is not a legitimate reason to stop working.



This sounds a bit unloving. Why would a retiree have more idle hands than a handicapped person for the Devil's plaything? You seem to have given yourself a broader allowance than you have your fellow brother or sister in Christ. I know people who are extremely handicapped who go to work in their wheelchair; or others who push through their chronic pain to go to work; or others who push through their chronic nausea and weakness to go to work, so there might be some who would want to judge you for not going to work, but they shouldn't because they don't know your exact circumstances. It's easy to judge others while giving ourselves a break from our own judgment. Retirement from a job isn't a sin. Being selfish with one's own time and not helping those in need is the sin. Who says retirees are not helping out those in need? I'm not trying to sound harsh or mean to you just trying to help you see the necessity of thinking more highly of others than you seem to be doing. Perhaps you are reacting to this post in this manner because you long to be able to work and I understand that, but maybe express yourself in that manner instead.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

OPC'n said:


> This sounds a bit unloving. Why would a retiree have more idle hands than a handicapped person for the Devil's plaything? You seem to have given yourself a broader allowance than you have your fellow brother or sister in Christ.



No, I have not; I have made it clear that I am not talking about instances of infirmity and/or incapacity.

P.S. The key difference is that the retiree, assuming that they have not retired owing to illness or infirmity, is not incapacitated to the point that they are no longer reasonably able to work. In one case, God has afflicted someone so that they cannot work. In the other case, the person has decided for themselves that they will not work. 



OPC'n said:


> I know people who are extremely handicapped who go to work in their wheelchair; or others who push through their chronic pain to go to work; or others who push through their chronic nausea and weakness to go to work, so there might be some who would want to judge you for not going to work, but they shouldn't because they don't know your exact circumstances.



I have done all that in the past myself. In those cases, depending on the circumstances, I might even tell the person that they are in danger of breaking the sixth commandment by continuing to work.



OPC'n said:


> Retirement from a job isn't a sin. Being selfish with one's own time and not helping those in need is the sin. Who says retirees are not helping out those in need?



Why do people constantly absolutise generalisations? It is clear that I am not talking about each and every case of retirement. In the UK, however, we have actively promoted a climate where people think that they are entitled to a 20-year sabbatical at the end of their lives, which they may spend pursuing the pleasures that they did not have time to do when they were working. Such a situation is clearly not healthy.


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

OPC'n said:


> I'm not trying to sound harsh or mean to you just trying to help you see the necessity of thinking more highly of others than you seem to be doing. Perhaps you are reacting to this post in this manner because you long to be able to work and I understand that, but maybe express yourself in that manner instead.



Perhaps you are correct, at least to a point. I admit that it angers me that people who are fit and healthy are idling away their time while people who genuinely want to work are confined to a sick-bed. Also, I do think it is important to keep in mind that a man will see things somewhat differently to a woman. It is natural for a conscientious man to want to be out working, and he will naturally think that there is something amiss if other men do not want to do likewise.

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## OPC'n (May 19, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> No, I have not; I have made it clear that I am not talking about instances of infirmity and/or incapacity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m sorry but you sound judgmental, proud, and unloving.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

OPC'n said:


> I’m sorry but you sound judgmental, proud, and unloving.



"For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is *not willing* *to work*, let him not eat." (2 Thessalonians 3:10) 

Is it proud, judgmental, and unloving to tell people that idleness is a sin? It does not become any less sinful because one has reached 65 years of age. I grant that that does not necessarily mean that they have to be engaged in paid employment, but the modern retirement culture is not one that I can reconcile with the clear injunctions of scripture to be busy and productive if you are fit and able.


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

"For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, *not busy at work*, but busybodies." (2 Thessalonians 3:11)

Perhaps the situation with retirement is significantly different in the U.S. than it is here in the UK, which would not surprise me as you seem to have a much better work-ethic over there than we do over here, but, from what I have observed in Northern Ireland, the above verse perfectly describes much of our modern retirement culture.


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## OPC'n (May 19, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> "For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is *not willing* *to work*, let him not eat." (2 Thessalonians 3:10)
> 
> Is it proud, judgmental, and unloving to tell people that idleness is a sin? It does not become any less sinful because one has reached 65 years of age. I grant that that does not necessarily mean that they have to be engaged in paid employment, but the modern retirement culture is not one that I can reconcile with the clear injunctions of scripture to be busy and productive if you are fit and able.



You are taking that Scripture out of context. It is talking about a person who won’t work and others have to care for that person because they are lazy. Retirees have a pension and social security they have paid into which meets their needs they aren’t being taken care of by other people. If you are unable to reconcile retirement with your own conscience, then by all means you should work as much as you can for the rest of your life, but don’t tell others what to do when you have no right to do so.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

OPC'n said:


> You are taking that Scripture out of context. It is talking about a person who won’t work and others have to care for that person because they are lazy. Retirees have a pension and social security they have paid into which meets their needs they aren’t being taken care of by other people. If you are unable to reconcile retirement with your own conscience, then by all means you should work as much as you can for the rest of your life, but don’t tell others what to do when you have no right to do so.



I agree that the two things are not exactly the same, but Paul's basic point is that it is wrong not to be willing to work. What I want to know is why does this principle no longer apply once we reach some arbitrary age?


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## Southern Presbyterian (May 19, 2019)

*Moderation*

If this unproductive back and forth continues this thread will be forced into early retirement.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 19, 2019)

Just an FYI, according to the Office of National Statistics in 2016 the UK spent 42% of its welfare budget on pensions (that amounts £111 billion on pensions alone). With an ageing population, there is no way that this system is sustainable. While I try to write PB posts with a US audience in mind, my position on this issue is largely influenced by what I have seen in the UK. I realise that my posts may have sounded unduly alarmist, but please keep in mind these figures.


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## Pergamum (May 20, 2019)

I think the American ideal of retirement was a post-WWII temporary anomaly never really seen elsewhere on earth and quickly dissolving as a possibility, and somehow this oddity became an expectation.

My father worked 30 years in a car factory and has now lived post-retirement 2 decades (living off 30 years of work for 20 years afterwards, and on into the foreseeable future since he is still somewhat healthy). His life coincided perfectly with this era and without even finishing high school he was able to live a very comfortable life through factory labor. We cannot expect the same.

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## WRB (May 20, 2019)

Indeed, things do change as we age. Consider the words of Numbers 8:23-26.
May we fulfill our lives in the service of the LORD.

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## Eoghan (May 20, 2019)

jwithnell said:


> bass fishing



My grandfather (mothers side) used fishing as an evangelistic tool in his retirement. He is an example to me still.


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## Eoghan (May 20, 2019)

As I understand it orthodos Jewish synagogues in London set aside funds, to set people up on business. The loan is then repaid. They also have burial societies which take care of funeral costs. It seems a more holistic approach, replacing many of the functions of government?
Mormon churches have a compulsory tithe but provide a form of social security in return. Of course should you want to leave the mormon church it would represent a great loss. If it becomes something that binds you to the mormon church it becomes an evil.

I anticipated this thread would develop along the lines of lists of activities we have not had the time or financial security to pursue. Many folks in work have the opportunity to "wind-down" approaching retirement, working three days a week where they have traditionally worked five (or more).

I had been thinking long and hard about a "bookshop". Given the rate of closure of bookshops and the shift in emphasis in libraries to internet cafes (UK only?) I had pondered the viability of a travelling bookshop. Yes you can generally get it cheaper online but you cannot browse online. So my solution was to use books out my library. I never underline, carefully avoid breaking the spine of paperbacks so they are "as new". That said they are not cheap, I had maybe 20 books for my stall but they were all priced at current market values. So they averaged £10 or more. Tracts were free though.

*Financially it is not viable, more of a service really but if you are retired...*


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## Eoghan (May 20, 2019)

I would love to know how women cope when their husbands come home to stay. My wife has worked from home for the last fifteen years as a childminder and is "encouraging" my job search. 
*Is a husbands retirement something women look forward to or dread?
*
My wife working from home, her networking and greater social skills makes it easier I think for her to contemplate retirement.




Reformed Covenanter said:


> It is natural for a conscientious man to want to be out working, and he will naturally think that there is something amiss if other men do not want to do likewise.



I think a man's identity is more tied into their job/career. When introduced to another man they will frequently start talking about work. Women on the other hand will frequently start by who they know from that town or work in that field (relationships).

Of course these are generalisations, but...


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## TheOldCourse (May 20, 2019)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> "For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, *not busy at work*, but busybodies." (2 Thessalonians 3:11)
> 
> Perhaps the situation with retirement is significantly different in the U.S. than it is here in the UK, which would not surprise me as you seem to have a much better work-ethic over there than we do over here, but, from what I have observed in Northern Ireland, the above verse perfectly describes much of our modern retirement culture.



There is certainly our share of that as well though I think many still want to keep busy and find part time work at Walmart, thrift stores, etc. I find idleness far less prominent among retirees in the church, at least good confessional churches, but it is a significant temptation. It could also be said that this is, in part, a fault of the rest of us rather than the retirees. Do we allow our elderly men and women to be useful instead of expecting them to sit in a recliner in front of a television all day and not be a bother? Our society, at least over here, doesn't value the elderly much.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 20, 2019)

TheOldCourse said:


> It could also be said that this is, in part, a fault of the rest of us rather than the retirees. Do we allow our elderly men and women to be useful instead of expecting them to sit in a recliner in front of a television all day and not be a bother? Our society, at least over here, doesn't value the elderly much.



That is an excellent point. My grandfather was forced to retire from his position as janitor of my first primary school (the summer before I started) but continued to work as his church caretaker, then, shortly afterwards, got a part-time job as the patrolman at the same school (while continuing to work at the church). He did that until he was 75 and was forced to retire again. I recall him saying after the second retirement that "when you're 75 you're just put on the scrap-heap." Nevertheless, he still worked as the church's janitor until a few months before he died 8 years later.

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## earl40 (May 20, 2019)

Just a side note. I have noticed how many think working for "the church" after retirement is _more_ meritorious than working for our neighbor. I am not saying that working for the benefit for the church is not meritorious.

My dad was blessed to retire for about 15 years, and his witness as an ordinary retired man was as much a blessing to others as it was while he made money. He worked like a dog for 35 years raising 9 kids and providing for us, along with supporting the local economy while he spent his hard earned income he earned and saved for retirement.

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## Eoghan (May 20, 2019)

*A tale of two grandfathers. *
I had on grandfather who retired to his armchair and a little gardening. The other continued, painting in oil, salmon fishing and visiting his grandchildren. When we visited the latter we would be taken to the airport to plane watch, the beach for walks or the swimming pool. One had a zest for life, the other not so much. One was heard to say my kids know where to find me (armchair) the other almost remarried in his nineties!


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## bookslover (May 20, 2019)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> *Moderation*
> 
> If this unproductive back and forth continues this thread will be forced into early retirement.



You spelled "interesting and engaging" wrong. It may be back-and-forth, but it's not unproductive. Heh.


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## JimmyH (May 20, 2019)

Working at manual labor, in one form or another since I was 13 years old, with an 8th grade education, and a GED I passed to get into the union Ironworker's apprenticeship program, I worked until I was 65. I was a cracker jack Ironworker, skilled at all phases of the trade, an excellent pro carpet installer, and a journeyman street shop tattooer. That was my working life.

I'm 70 now and haven't hit a lick since the day I retired, and I'm not ashamed to say so. As an old ironworker friend used to say, "I worked hard all my life, even played hard as a kid." My childhood didn't lend itself to a stable environment and I left school and home at 15 to learn in the school of hard knocks. 

Somewhat of an autodidact, I now spend time reading the Bible, theological works, and self studying κοινε Greek. I have been blessed with genetics that have allowed me to remain healthy enough in my senior years, so that at 70 I take no medications. Only a multi vitamin, and a D-3.

I do daily physical exercise to help alleviate the pain of osteoarthritis and to support one herniated, and two bulging lumbar spinal discs injured during my 20 years of working at structural steel erection. I try to briskly walk 5 miles a day, and do relatively light weight training and stretching exercises. 

It is now just me and my cat Tangerine, so I have to take care of both of us, and keep the house half way decent. I'm a deacon in my OPC congregation, and this sometimes requires time spent in service. We've almost completed repairing the exterior of our church with concrete board over new plywood. All of this takes time, and I have full days.

I would say in addition, you have to be an old man to know and understand what it is like to live in a 70 year old body regardless of how good a shape it's in. Assumptions can be made by younger folks, but it is like seeing people swimming in the ocean, and thinking you know what that must be like, when you've never actually done it yourself. At least that has been my experience looking back at my assumptions through the years.

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## Reformed Covenanter (May 23, 2019)

Richard Baxter on the sins of the idle rich, which is tangentially relevant to this topic.


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