# Gothic Christians?



## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

http://www.christiangoth.com/
Any opinions?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Apr 27, 2006)

With anything we do, whatever it is, we should be focused to do all to the glory of God.

If someone wants to pierce their ear, their eye, their nose, their lip, well, they need to have a reason why that aids them in the glorification of Jesus Christ.

If someone wants to have long hair, or short, hair, or spiked hair or blue hair, etc., the same applies.

If someone wants to associate themselves with a certain kind of music, or lifestyle, then all of that has to surround the biblical truth of the Word, and they must have a godly purpose behind their actions.

This applies to all of us.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

I am actually considering going to their get-together just so I can relieve the doubts in my judgmental mind. Wonder if I'll find brothers and sisters in Christ or not...


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## turmeric (Apr 27, 2006)

Hopefully you will. How mature they are, well...but you could probably say that about most congregations.


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## fivepointcalvinist (Apr 27, 2006)

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil"

do these "christians" exemplify the glory of God with their dress and lifestyle?


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist_
> 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil"
> 
> do these "christians" exemplify the glory of God with their dress and lifestyle?



But then one has to qualify what is evil. I'm going to concede to you on the lifestyle issue but as far as clothing, what makes their clothing evil? How exactly do we apply that verse and to what extent? Many people feel it's wrong to drink a beer so if I wore my Molson Canadian hockey jersey would I be disobeying that verse?


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## fivepointcalvinist (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist_
> ...



you could be but that depends on ones biblical understanding on whether or not a christian can "legally" consume alcohol. i personally have no problem with alcohol for others as long as its in moderation. i choose to avoid it because it could manifest itself into a problem for me. anyways, the black wardrobe including makeup, fingernail polish and musical preferance connote evil. gothic dress is exclusive to that subculture which frequently associates itself with demonic worship, inconspicously as well as saliently. also, does our dress not reveal our personality. men love darkness, goth is darkness and men will find any excuse to justify a continuation therein. just my


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Hopefully you will. How mature they are, well...but you could probably say that about most congregations.



Agreed. I know one already. She was really an onfire person.



FPC, I have tried using that argument, but I wear black, I love to hang out in graveyards on the nights of full moons, and I definitly am not gothic...


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> ...



I hear you on the alcohol issue. As for the black wardrobe it only connotes evil because we believe that it does. We've given it that connotation. Kind of like certain words are swear words in our culture because we've decided they are. There is nothing innately evil about wearing black. I don't believe it reflects that people love darkness as that darkness the Bible is talking about is spiritual darkness, not clothing.

I don't believe our dress does reveal our personality. Maybe when we're teenagers but as adults we dress in a way that meets accepted societal standards. We dress casually in a casual environment. We dress for business at the office or even when looking for employment. Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok than what our personality is, in my opinion. Which is why many people have a problem with the way goths dress...because it is not how most of society dresses; which is exactly why the goths dress like that, to stand out or be different but it doesn't necessarily mean they love darkness and evil.


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## fivepointcalvinist (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> 
> I hear you on the alcohol issue. As for the black wardrobe it only connotes evil because we believe that it does. We've given it that connotation. Kind of like certain words are swear words in our culture because we've decided they are. There is nothing innately evil about wearing black. I don't believe it reflects that people love darkness as that darkness the Bible is talking about is spiritual darkness, not clothing.



does this imply "appearance"? people make observations based off associations. most should associate kindness, charity, humilty and love with that of a christian although that does not specifically make someone a christian. similarly, the color black does not make someone evil, or inclined to darkness, but the color certainly can represent it. we as humans dont associate the color white with evil, but good (im being general). thus, black gothic dress is associated with evil and should be avoided no matter how genuine the claim to sincerity may be.



> I don't believe our dress does reveal our personality. Maybe when we're teenagers but as adults we dress in a way that meets accepted societal standards. We dress casually in a casual environment. We dress for business at the office or even when looking for employment. Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok than what our personality is, in my opinion. Which is why many people have a problem with the way goths dress...because it is not how most of society dresses; which is exactly why the goths dress like that, to stand out or be different but it doesn't necessarily mean they love darkness and evil.



i think this argument is fallacious but subtle. our clothes do reveal our personality regardless if we acknowledge or even notice. in your example "Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok"; if we accept this as true, which i may also agree is true, we show our behavior as conformity to acceptance, and not as being rebellious to social norms, which is part of our personality (again, im being general). on a lighter note, do you think in any way that the gothic subculture, which in fact is a lifestyle, with goth dress as a manifestation of the goth worldview, glorifies God? is the perception of goths unfairly attributed? i think the answer to both wil be a resounding 'no'.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

They may not have the best representation, I agree, but wearing all black is NOT wrong...nor is it paganish.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> ...


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## BobVigneault (Apr 27, 2006)

Goth culture is by nature narcissistic, attention craving and a glory in ones own flesh to the deminishing of the glory of God. This is obvious, can't believe it needs to be stated. You're flirting with the parasite kingdom.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

http://www.christiangoth.com/statement.html

Isn't that what counts?


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2006)

Ian, from knowing you...there is a difference between the black Ts you wear, etc. and gothic attire. YOU do not look goth. Thus it's not the fact of wearing black or liking black (vs wear blue and liking blue)...but rather the STYLE of how the person intentionally is put together. They are imitating a particular subculture...is it a subculture they (as Christians) should be imitating? Therein lies the question and any answers.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

That could be said for anyone imitating anything that is considered wrong.

No, I didn't say I was dressing gothic, but I do dress in all black sometimes...I also like chains on pants...Definitly not into gothic darkness, kinda freaky.

[Edited on 4-28-2006 by ServantofGod]


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantofGod_
> That could be said for anyone imitating anything that is considered wrong.
> 
> gothic darkness, kinda freaky.



True...that is my point. What are they imitating? How does it edify?



[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

But what is an angry person imitating? What does a parent imitate when they scream at their kids? What does someone who smokes imitate? Or someone that curses? 

I don't think their salvation becomes invalid because they dress like a certain group of wacky people.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2006)

No one said that their salvation was invalid...


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 27, 2006)

I could ask the same question about most churches today. How does what most people wear in church edify a poor person? 

When I first started going to church there were a few people who had a problem with the way I dressed (I didn't have a suit, still don't). My pastor told me if they say anything to me to tell them to buy me a suit if they felt I needed one. Come to think of it, back then my hair was long and in my face and at times I wore all black.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2006)

My husband doesn't own a suit either...and hasn't for years.

Also, there is a difference between a person be poverty stricken and one who is imitating a lifestyle that might conflict with that which the scriptures speak on.

BTW, Ian...I am reading over that website.

[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 27, 2006)

Things pulled from the site with my comments in bold:

God doesn't care much about our outward appearance *there is truth to this...however, for a christian, there are certain principles He does give us concerning these things*

Goth is a state of mind *does it conflict with the renewing of our minds?*

Goths like dark poetry, art, music etc. (by dark, I mean deep, not dark as in evil.) *There are ALOT of ppl throughout history and today that are NOT goths and yet enjoy deep poetry, art, and music...there more to it than this*

a concern for the music and clothing that mourns for a lost and fallen world. *we may morn for a lost and fallen world...but the lost and fallen world is looking for those that have something more, something NOT of their lost and fallen world. Also, is there somewhere that speaks of us NOT walking around in torn garments and ashes? (the ancient equivalent of this man's definition of gothic music and attire)*

Do not preach, do not condemn anything, LOVE her to pieces! Compliment any gothic items she wears that you may find slightly attractive. Never point out pentagrams & such...she will be expecting you to. LOVE her into the Kingdom. *Whoa, another RED flag. This is from the "anything goes" warm fuzzy camp. We ARE to discuss these things...right and wrong, etc with others. Christianity is not a "club"...hey come on in. It is filled with absolutes. You don't just "love a person in". You talk with them, you explain things to them, you teach them. Granted in love...but that is different than what is being said here.*

[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## ServantofGod (Apr 27, 2006)

Well said...


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> My husband doesn't own a suit either...and hasn't for years.
> 
> *Cool. I'm not alone.*
> ...


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 28, 2006)

Edify...to instruct. What are you teaching or saying to others when you walk in looking like a goth? That is totally different than a suit vs simply clothing.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 28, 2006)

Edify also means "to build up, establish, or strengthen a person, institution, etc.; to uplift".

How do people do that in their 500 dollar suits when a poor person or a goth walks into the church?

I don't know what you are teaching to others when you walk in wearing goth clothing. I have a hunch God could be using the situation to show everyone, and I mean everyone, the condition of their hearts.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 28, 2006)

> the condition of their hearts



my point.

Still my point is that this is totally different than a person in a suit. To be honest, I couldn't tell you the difference between a thrift store suit or a $500 one. If a person chooses to wear a suit, they are NOT going out of their way to make some sort of "statement". Many wear suits daily as a job requirement and some wear them on Sunday simply because they were taught to wear the "best they have" as a means of respect. These same men will tell a person if the "best they have" is a pair of jeans and one polo or button down shirt (easily had for $1 at a thrift store) then that is the "best they have" and to go ahead and wear it. To *intentionally* be slovenly is another story. *Please note the difference* I grew up in a church that was in a city and we had plenty of poverty stricken ppl walk in as well as brought up children from East St Louis on buses...heavens, I was one of the Rural bus kids (after coming back to the states...previously I was one of the base bus kids). Some of my closest friends dressed better than I did on Sundays...and I dressed better than some of the other bus kids. We didn't see a difference between ourselves. NOW granted, there were your cliques of what I called the "silk shirts"...but it had to do with attitude, not their clothing being better. I've seen these same cliques in church where EVERYONE wore topline clothing and $1000 suits! Again, you need to note the difference.

Those that are *already claiming Christianity* and walk in with goth clothing are typically looking for attention, a reaction, and anything to "prove" others are "judgemental". This is an ATTITUDE. This signifies an issue.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 28, 2006)

I see what you're saying. I agree.

But when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts, I mean the conditions of everyone's hearts. The goths coming in, and the Christians already in there. Many Christians can be extremely judgemental and I was referring to them just as much as the goths when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 28, 2006)

The way to reach that goth then is too treat them as if they had the nicest suit on...They wan't a bad reaction, catch them off guard with a loving reaction.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't know if it's as much about treating them as if they had a nice suit on (though I see what you mean) but just treating them with love instead of with the negative reaction that they are expecting.


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## ServantofGod (Apr 28, 2006)

Yeah. I definitley agree that goths dress to shock. But don't be shocked, then they can't call us judgmental...


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 28, 2006)

Yeah, don't be shocked. I'm sure there are other looks that could shock more than goth anyways. Just be their friend and let them know you have convictions that you will stand on.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh, I absolutely agree! But that is totally different than discussing the philosophy of "being" a "Christian Goth"...KWIM?


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## ServantofGod (Apr 30, 2006)

So, can you be a Christian and a "goth"?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 30, 2006)

Ian, at the end of the day, only you can answer that question. But you MUST be accountable to scripture. Read scripture with a humble expectancy and a heart to serve and surrender to it's authority and then answer that question. Start with Phillipians 4:8 - 

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Phil. 4:8

Let me add that Romans 14:5 tells us to be fully convinced in our minds about our convictions. If you have doubts about your fascination with goth then set it aside while you seek the Lord's counsel.

My own humble opinion is that your fascination comes from just being young and inexperienced and perhaps a draw to the youthful rebellion that is certainly a large part of goth. As for me, I've seen too much of the dark influences and have experienced the destruction that lies behind the spirit of such things. As for me and my house, we'll have nothing to do with these influences. Blessings young friend. 

[Edited on 4-30-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## BobVigneault (Apr 30, 2006)

What translation are you using 'other Bob'.? Just kidding. I just got up and it's an hour earlier than it is in Conn. :bigsmile:

Thanks for catching that brother.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 30, 2006)

Bob is right here. 

However Bob, thinking on things that are true, etc. could be applicable to the goth thing. If they are all about death, well, we're all going to die.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> However Bob, thinking on things that are true, etc. could be applicable to the goth thing. If they are all about death, well, we're all going to die.



1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Eph 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"œDeath is swallowed up in victory."
55 "œO death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 30, 2006)

Hallelujah!

But...we're still gonna die.


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## gwine (Apr 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> Hallelujah!
> 
> But...we're still gonna die.



Only a physical death.


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## BaptistCanuk (Apr 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by gwine_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> ...



That is what I was referring to.


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## ServantofGod (May 5, 2006)

Bob, I appreciate your advice, but I'm not fascinated by goths, nor am I leaning toward that lifestyle(though 2 o'clock in the morning is a great time to be outside, and a full moon glinting off of gravestones is kinda cool). I only ask because I want to know if these people are truly Christians.


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## LadyFlynt (May 5, 2006)

and...if he doesn't mind my adding...Ian has a huge zealous heart for reaching out to others...so I think part of this might be trying to understand where, how to fit this...and how to respond to this without being drastic. He's the same age as most of these kids that are involved in this culture, therefore giving him an opening in that area...thus perhaps his questions from an outreach perspective.


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## BobVigneault (May 6, 2006)

Thank you for your gracious response Ian. I'm sorry to have made the unfortunate assumption to you were attracted to the culture and not the lost. God bless you in your willingness to be used by God to seek His children that still walk in darkness. 

As I said before, I've seen so much destruction related to the dark forces. The children of Israel were told not to touch any dead thing because the dead thing would make the living unclean. It never worked the other way. That has been my experience. If we get too friendly with evil, we run the risk of being sucked in. At the same time we are called to be the light of the world. My fatherly instinct just wants you to be so very cautious Ian. I will pray for your guidance and your ministry. I am very glad you are a contributor here on the board. Blessings to you.


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## ServantofGod (May 6, 2006)

Thank you Bob. It is true I am extremely burdened for those type of people,(which is why I'm at Exwitch), and I thank you for your prayers. Blessings to you.:bigsmile:


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