# When do we cross the line in being "frozen chosen"



## calgal

Now here is a thought after reading the other thread: When are we being too exclusive and living down to the stereotype of being "the frozen chosen?" When do we not welcome outsiders, proclaim the Gospel to anyone other than covenant children or refuse to be part of the larger community comrpising the visible church? This does not include interfaith events or Osteen or other obvious heretics BTW.


----------



## Rich Koster

An example from my past experience: Turning an unknown visitor away at the door for the way they are dressed. Here's a way we can be cold as ice. We need to get to know where this person is at spiritually and not judge on appearance.


----------



## Rangerus

This is a good starting point:

_Colossians 3:11 KJV Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all._


----------



## Knoxienne

I will say there is a difference between what is required of visitors and what is required of members. If someone (whoever they are) wants to come to the service or walks in, they are to be treated as one of our own - with kindness and hospitality. The scriptures command this in several places. The worship service should be a place where they, like the rest of us, hear the whole counsel of God. It's nice for there to be a lunch after the service either in the church building or in someone's home so we can get to know them. 

If we are obeying the Lord and looking for opportunities in our places of work, neighborhoods, places we frequent, and getting to know people throughout the week, the Lord will give us opportunities to talk to them about the Lord. 

Many people want to go to church - they just don't know where to go. I was in that situation for years as I was studying the reformed faith during college. Some won't be interested in a bibilical conversation, and all we can do is pray for them. Hopefully they will see our lives and crave the Lord eventually and want to come. Others will want to talk about spiritual issues and find out what we believe about both major and minor issues. I've had people get really interested when I explain what the Bible has to say about certain topics like the environment, certain aspects of politics like the Iraq war, etc - things a lot of people either don't expect Christians to know about or take a certain stand on. I've had many democrat unbelievers become very surprised when I've criticized Bush and the Republican Party. Many of them think we Christians think Bush and the Republicans can do no wrong. So these types of things get them thinking - and with God's providence, craving the gospel. We don't act like others. They see that we (generally speaking) don't cuss like others or lose our tempers or take offense like others. This is something they notice. 

We also need to keep in mind that while we evangelize, we are called to be separate and live separate lives unto the Lord. And with all the talk of unity nowadays (an important doctrine as it's defined biblically) there's very little talk today in the Church about separation - and yet the Bible has much to say about it, and it's a command for God's People now as it always has been. It's just that in our politically correct climate, we don't like it. We have to trust that while many will be turned off by our separateness (and I don't mean mean-spiritedness or snobbishness by that - those are ugly, unChristian traits) those the Lord is drawing to Himself will be attracted to it.


----------



## Scott1

Christians are to be hospitable people- welcoming, generous, and kind.

One of the spiritual charges for the office of Deacon given in the PCA is to develop a "spirit of liberality" in the congregation. I understand this to include things like greeting people, inviting them to church activities, and being personally hospitable (e.g. inviting people over to your home, or out, or steering them to resources to meet their needs).

It is spiritual service and should be a fruit of every Christian, particularly as they grow in Christ.

I think that discipling in the Christian faith goes right along with it. The precepts of the Christian life are mixed right in with hospitality and everything else we do. They are an ordinary part of the Christian life. So, when someone asks about doctrine or a spiritual truth, be quick to give an answer from Scripture or as a summary what your doctrinal summary says. Don't worry about what you think the person may or may not think or how they might react.

Be faithful. Make the most of every opportunity. Trust the results to God. This is a way God uses us constantly to extend His Kingdom.


----------



## Wannabee

I would consider the frozen chosen to consist of those who, contrary to what they espouse, consider themselves special recipients of God's grace. As such, they (we?) look down on others as though their (our) knowledge was somehow based on who they (we) are, rather than who God is. If confronted they will deny it, stating such quips as, "But for the grace of God, there go I." They might even believe this with their minds, but their hearts are proud of their doctrinal integrity and they would rather argue the finer points of theology than ever proclaim the glories of Christ. If asked about the hope within them they will point to Calvin, Witsius and/or the confessions before the cross. And none can enter their circles until they can do the same. 

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)


----------



## PresbyDane

*
MODERATOR'S NOTE:*

This post was deleted for a veiled attack on the members and administration of the Puritan Board. It is not the first time such a "cute quip" has been offered. The poster is highly encouraged to stop such unbecoming behavior, lest his posting privileges be revoked by infraction.

Let this serve as a clear warning.


----------



## OPC'n

Perhaps the term frozen chosen is being used in a different manner here on this thread. Are we talking about those people of every denomination whose heart is cold? If so then can they really be of the chosen? When I hear the term frozen chosen I think of the kidding that Presbyterians get from other denominations about how "cold" our worship services are. So how are we defining the frozen chosen?


----------



## Classical Presbyterian

I think that there are some of our churches that are just comfortable with those they already have. They might _say_ that they want to add to the church family and all (it's the standard line we all give), but in the end they just like things the way they are.

I think too much jargon in church, dodging of meaningful interactions with outsiders, lack of engagement in the community and the like is a symptom of sinful exclusivity in churches, not all of which are Reformed.

Visitors pretty easily clue in when they are not wanted. They also understand when they are only desired as a part of the community when they 'fit in' to the prevailing membership's expectations of what a Christian should look like in that congregation.

For example, too many churches want young families with a stable job for the husband and a wife who stays at home and all the kids come to church. They don't want the divorced older woman, the bachelor guy, the ex-con or the worker with dirt under his finger nails. And other churches flip that and don't want the families.

In the end, it comes down to churches choosing to live like clubs and not the Body of Christ. It happens all too often and wherever we see it we should do our utmost to kill that mentality. Kill it with the Gospel.


----------



## Wannabee

That's probably a good point, Toby. I was thinking doctrinally elite, which tends to be among the "reformed." But the exclusive club mentality fits just as well, I suppose. Another good challenge for all of us to consider.


----------



## Edward

sjonee said:


> Perhaps the term frozen chosen is being used in a different manner here on this thread. Are we talking about those people of every denomination whose heart is cold? If so then can they really be of the chosen? When I hear the term frozen chosen I think of the kidding that Presbyterians get from other denominations about how "cold" our worship services are. So how are we defining the frozen chosen?



Glad to see at least one person on the thread who knows what the term means. Orderly worship, a sermon which appeals to the intellect rather than just seeking an emotional reaction...

If someone wants snake handling, or dancing in the aisle, or being 'slain in the spirit', they probably aren't part of the frozen chosen.


----------



## Marrow Man

Classical Presbyterian said:


> For example, too many churches want young families with a stable job for the husband and a wife who stays at home and all the kids come to church. They don't want the divorced older woman, the bachelor guy, the ex-con or the worker with dirt under his finger nails. And other churches flip that and don't want the families.



This is an excellent observation, but is not the domain of Reformed churches in general. This sort of thing is the result of the church growth phenomenon, as seen in the desire to have a "target audience" for outreach. Unfortunately, many churches, including those within the Reformed community, have bought into this approach hook, line, and sinker.

Why are we not pleased with the people God sends us? Too many churches have reverted to a form of moralism where they want folks to show up perfect on the outside. That is a good way of making perfect little Pharisees -- like those white-washed sepulchers of which Jesus spoke: beautiful and ornate on the outside, but inside full of dead men's bones. Reformed churches understand the heart of man, the power of God, the design of sanctification, all these wonderful Biblical truths. We should not be acting like other churches (the worldly sort) in this area. If nothing else, we know the truth of God's sovereignty and its far-reaching impact. We should be the forerunners of evangelism and hospitality and the like.


----------



## Jesus is my friend

Wow!,I must have missed the boat!,I had always understood the term "Frozen Chosen" to refer to us Christians here in the northern,colder climates like us in New England,I hope the lack of warmth and Hospitality doesnt also apply to us,it's bad enough that it's seems like a spiritual wasteland here as it is,I am the only one here that's heard it applied geographically?


----------



## CatechumenPatrick

Oh, about 32 degrees F.


----------



## Hawaiian Puritan

Rich Koster said:


> An example from my past experience: Turning an unknown visitor away at the door for the way they are dressed. Here's a way we can be cold as ice. We need to get to know where this person is at spiritually and not judge on appearance.




This is the one time I've heard our senior pastor get upset from the pulpit. Apparently someone had told a visitor they weren't properly dressed (apparently wearing shorts and slippers--but hey this is Hawaii). Anyway, what happened made it to our senior pastor's attention, and he departed from his sermon at the beginning and said he wanted to say something about how people dressed for church. Part of me went "uh oh," because we all tend to dress casually. But instead of telling us we had to dress more formally, he stated that we should never turn anyone away that wants to join us at church, and the last thing we should be doing is judging people based on the way they dress.


----------



## CNJ

*Is there a stereotypical PB member?*

 Are we too upset with items such as jeans worn to worship or women working outside the home or whatever? Perhaps that is how we get a reputation as being _opinionated_ or *the frozen chosen.* With humility we need to judge ourselves. Purity of the Gospel is *so* different than ideas on lifestyle. Be charitable on lifestyle in this economy and frozen on theology. Pick your battles they say. Even so at times it may be hard to distinguish when to show charity and when to be frozen. Lord grant us wisdom.


----------



## Galatians220

"Frozen chosen" is a hot-button term for me. I've been in too many Reformed churches where the following is/are done, and I've been the victim myself:

1. Social connections are formed and broken behind people's backs. Gossip rules the day, and if someone doesn't know that they're being talked about, well, that's because they're not being observant enough or they're too much of a dork to know when they're being ostracized. Fellowship luncheons are where the lines are drawn, and if you can't see them, you're hopeless. 

2. "We" don't welcome people whose political persuasions are a trifle odd or whose full, TULIP credentials may not be fully in place - yet.

3. "We" don't welcome people who are not fully sold on the NASB, ESV or NKJV. A person who stubbornly clings to their KJV, although they themselves do not criticize those other versions, must be an Arminian in disguise. "We" distance ourselves from that person. "We" might even convene an entire Sunday School class just to expose to everyone who doesn't know the errors of that person's ways.

4. The minister reserves to himself the right to kick anyone out of the congregation for any reason, no explanations necessary. The excommunicated person is just supposed to understand that s/he was no longer acceptable to that minister.

5. A person is not fully acceptable in the congregation who does not consider the WCF at least as authoritative as the Bible. No, "we" would never say that out loud; "we" can't, for, you know, our NASB/NKJV/ESV is, truly, the word of God. A person who accepts the WCF but has a couple of "issues" and also likes the 3 Forms of Unity is not quite "kosher" with us. "Let's distance ourselves a bit..."

6. Why visit the sick? Let their families take care of them. God is sovereign and He will provide a listening ear and all the care that He wants the ill person to have. "We" have busy lives and families and we seriously don't have the time to think about people in nursing homes, hospitals, etc. 

At the darkest times, I've thought to myself, _wow, I used to get into disagreements in the RCC, but in the end, we always kissed and made up._ Not so among the true "frozen chosen." They don't forgive "70 x 7." Especially some clergy.

Obviously, I'm not perfect myself and have occasionally, but not too often, fallen into the "herd" mentality myself - after which I berate myself and ask the Lord for forgiveness. "There are no perfect churches and if there were one, it wouldn't be perfect anymore as soon as I joined it." I just wish I hadn't seen some of the things that I have in staunchly Reformed churches over the past 17 years. They have the doctrine right, but "First Corinthians 13? We just ripped that old thing out of our Bible..."



Margaret


----------



## Ruby

Wow! Whatever happened to, "See how they love one another?"


----------



## Galatians220

Ruby said:


> Wow! Whatever happened to, "See how they love one another?"


 
They "love one another," but people have to "meet the tests" first. They love those who are true D-o-G believers but even then, they're always _sniffing around..._  Someone might have been, in the privacy of their home, watching Charles Stanley on TV yesterday...!    Oh no! _"They were not of us..."_



Margaret


----------



## PresbyDane




----------



## Knoxienne

Galatians220 said:


> Ruby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Whatever happened to, "See how they love one another?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They "love one another," but people have to "meet the tests" first. They love those who are true D-o-G believers but even then, they're always _sniffing around..._  Someone might have been, in the privacy of their home, watching Charles Stanley on TV yesterday...!    Oh no! _"They were not of us..."_
> 
> 
> 
> Margaret
Click to expand...


Anyone who watches Charles Stanley is safe with us. We visit a dear elderly sister regularly who watches the Crystal Cathedral show - she knows the teaching is heretical - she just likes to watch the program. 

Bill and I hardly have any right to judge what people watch on the religion channels when we're watching American Idol every week to see how the folk music type singers are going to handle Metal week and such.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

1 Peter 3:15:



> But sanctify the Lord God [fn] in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, *with meekness and fear*



Too often the Reformed are ready to give a defense, but forget about the meekness and fear part...


----------



## Wannabee

Knoxienne said:


> Bill and I hardly have any right to judge what people watch on the religion channels when we're watching American Idol every week to see how the folk music type singers are going to handle Metal week and such.



You watch American Idol? We need to talk. Isn't that, by definition, *idol*atry?

I'm sorry, you will not be allowed to join our church until you abstain from such sinful action for a period not less than 6 consecutive months and write, "I will have no idols" one hundred times a day during the duration.


----------



## Blue Tick

Also, consider that reformed churches tend to, but not always, attract folks who are a little more introverted in their personalities. Thus “frozen chosen” may be a result of just people’s personality makeup. This is contrasted with the extroverted happy clappy experiential worship types who find joy and "peace" in rock and roll praise bands, etc.

In my experience I've found as a whole reformed churches much warmer and genuinely concerned about the welfare and spiritual thermometer of visitors than say broad evangelical churches. I've been to a few other reformed churches to visit and each time the pastor or someone from the congregation has invited us to lunch and desires to be hospitable to us. People are gracious and want to extend their warmth towards us.

In addition, people in reformed churches tend to remove the “mask” they feel free to be truly who they are, i.e, wretched sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. There's isn't the need to be spiritual competitive with one another. What I mean by this is that they feel comfortable and don’t have to put on a “mask” and act like they’re someone else.


----------



## Marrow Man

Joshua said:


> , but
> 
> The moniker _frozen chosen_ is so funny to me. If anything, it is the reprobate who are the frozen chosen, since the Elect have been given hearts of flesh, replacing their frozen hearts of stone. We have been made alive, and are anything but frozen.



Good point. Part of the problem is that the natural man has no real idea what true religion looks like. So things like wild enthusiasm and legalistic morality are seen as signs of "spirituality," even though both of these are condemned in the gospels and the epistles of the NT.


----------



## Galatians220

Blue Tick said:


> In my experience I've found as a whole reformed churches much warmer and genuinely concerned about the welfare and spiritual thermometer of visitors than say broad evangelical churches. I've been to a few other reformed churches to visit and each time the pastor or someone from the congregation has invited us to lunch and desires to be hospitable to us. People are gracious and want to extend their warmth towards us.
> 
> In addition, people in reformed churches tend to remove the “mask” they feel free to be truly who they are, i.e, wretched sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. There's isn't the need to be spiritual competitive with one another. What I mean by this is that they feel comfortable and don’t have to put on a “mask” and act like they’re someone else.


 
On the west side of our state, this is emphatically true. The warmest people I have encountered in Reformed churches have been at PRCAs and other Reformed churches in the Grand Rapids area. We've had lunches, Lord's Day afternoons, etc. with these wonderful, warm people. I should have qualified what I said above. Everything I said above applies only to my experiences in churches on the east side of Michigan.

_Whew._ I'm so glad I corrected that! 

Margaret


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

I have always understood the 'Frozen Chosen' comment to have the indication that because God chooses some and doesn't choose others based upon something they did or recognized removed all emotion on the part of His people concerning salvation. The desire for evangelism was dissolved because there is nothing we can do to win others to Christ. I understood it to be a reaction to hyper Calvinism. Sorry for the poor grammar.


----------



## OPC'n

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I have always understood the 'Frozen Chosen' comment to have the indication that because God chooses some and doesn't choose others based upon something they did or recognized removed all emotion on the part of His people concerning salvation. The desire for evangelism was dissolved because there is nothing we can do to win others to Christ. I understood it to be a reaction to hyper Calvinism. Sorry for the poor grammar.



See, now I've always known this term to refer to RPW and the fact that Presbyterians are very quiet during the preaching....no "amens" for example.


----------



## Rich Koster

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I have always understood the 'Frozen Chosen' comment to have the indication that because God chooses some and doesn't choose others based upon something they did or recognized removed all emotion on the part of His people concerning salvation. The desire for evangelism was dissolved because there is nothing we can do to win others to Christ. I understood it to be a reaction to hyper Calvinism. Sorry for the poor grammar.



I know a Finneyist (loves the hype and altar calls) who called us that because of his misunderstandings of Reformed doctrine. He assumed we are all Hypers and talked like he was God's expert on evangelism.


----------



## PresbyDane

Re4mdant said:


> *
> MODERATOR'S NOTE:*
> 
> This post was deleted for a veiled attack on the members and administration of the Puritan Board. It is not the first time such a "cute quip" has been offered. The poster is highly encouraged to stop such unbecoming behavior, lest his posting privileges be revoked by infraction.
> 
> Let this serve as a clear warning.



I will consider myself warned, thanks Fred


----------



## MrMerlin777

When do we cross the line in being "frozen chosen"

Speaking for myself, when do *I* cross said line? A: Far too often.


----------



## Hippo

As we believe in a sovereign God who has preordained all things, combined with a monergistic view of salvation we will always be accused of being the frozen chosen no matter what we do. Unless of couse we act like God is not sovereign and that salvation is synergistic. 

The key is that we have got to reassert our oppositon to antinomanism, what we do in this life does matter but loving God just little bit more in the silence of our own minds is just as important as giving someone a tract on a bus, perhaps more so.

We should not feel pressured into conforming to a works based streotype just becuase people call us names.


----------



## Wannabee

Well said. I might add, "while at the same time balancing this with the fact that faith without works is dead, they will know you by your live and he who says he loves God and does not love his brother is a liar."

Perhaps it is the lack of the warmth of whimsical and passionate love for the Savior that identifies those who are frozen.


----------

