# Would we consider Jansenists Christians?



## Confessor (Mar 15, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism


These dudes denied free will, embraced predestination and efficacious grace, and were accused of being too Calvinistic by other Romanists.

They clearly went against the Roman Church, thereby showing that they had respect for Scripture.

So, I guess I have two questions: Would we consider them Christians?, and What makes them different from Calvinists?


----------



## steven-nemes (Mar 15, 2009)

I heard Robert Bresson was a Jansenist (modern filmmaker).... Are they still around?


----------



## Confessor (Mar 15, 2009)

steven-nemes said:


> I heard Robert Bresson was a Jansenist (modern filmmaker).... Are they still around?



Ask Mr. Religion (I wish I could remember his first name) used to be a Jansenist, so he seems like the guy to ask.


----------



## Hamalas (Mar 15, 2009)

Pascal was also a Jansenist. (Or at least he was accused of being one.)


----------



## Grymir (Mar 15, 2009)

They are close to what we would call Christians (Reformed). Pascal in his letters writes as a Jansenist. They are similar, but there are some subtle differences. ie, while they were Calvinistic in their soteriology, they were Catholic in the rest of their theology.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Mar 15, 2009)

You could probably call them a strict sect of RC Augustinians, and be pretty close.


----------



## Josiah (Mar 15, 2009)

Wouldnt they be related to the nicodemites in the RC?


----------



## yeutter (Mar 16, 2009)

Jansenists are Augustinian on grace but tend not to agree with Biblical teaching on justification by faith. 
Many high Church Anglicans are really Jansenists in their theology.
The Jansenist schism from the Church of Rome was largely "healed" when Napoleon brought about a reconcilliation of the Non Juror and Juror Roman Catholics.
The Old Catholic Church [Utrecht] was originally a Jansenist schism. The Old Catholic Churches today do not hold to Jansenist distinctives.


----------



## Zenas (Mar 16, 2009)

Who's we?


----------



## JohnGill (Mar 16, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Who's we?



Chinese baseball player. Plays on 1st base. Who's on 1st? No, We's on 1st. (Hey Abbott!!!)

Thought those guys were long gone.

Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08285a.htm


----------



## Confessor (Mar 16, 2009)

Zenas said:


> Who's we?



...PBers.


----------



## py3ak (Mar 16, 2009)

Read Pascal's _Provincial Letters_ and see for yourself. I think you'll find them some of the most engaging and entertaining polemics available.


----------



## CatechumenPatrick (Mar 16, 2009)

Grymir said:


> They are close to what we would call Christians (Reformed). Pascal in his letters writes as a Jansenist. They are similar, but there are some subtle differences. ie, while they were Calvinistic in their soteriology, they were Catholic in the rest of their theology.



So all of confessional Reformed theology besides a few points of soteriological similarity amounts to "subtle differences"? Being RC in the "rest" of their theology amounts to a huge departure if our standard is the Reformed faith and if the Reformed faith is constituted by the doctrine of the confessions. 

For the original question, if by Christian we mean regenerate, than sure by God's grace. They would be sanctified away from Jansenism as well.


----------



## Zenas (Mar 16, 2009)

From reading the ever reliable Wikipedia article regarding Jansenism, I tend to agree with the above sentiments. They were Calvinistic in that they denied Free Will, but they still clung to the Roman understanding of infusing grace rather than imputed grace.


----------



## ZackF (Mar 16, 2009)

*Jansenism, RCism etc..*



Confessor said:


> Jansenism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> These dudes denied free will, embraced predestination and efficacious grace, and were accused of being too Calvinistic by other Romanists.
> ...



Forgive me if this reply is too subjective but if you find a Jansenist Roman Catholic he may just need some solid teaching and encouragement to leave the RCC. Toward the end of my tenure in RCism I basically considered myself a Jansenist, yes I knew what Jansenism was then, for predestinarian reasons. I could not square Romans 9 with catholic teaching. In fact I confessed such to a near life long friend, a Roman Catholic. He said he didn't know what to say. My life was falling apart> I thought I could find hope by fitting a solid doctrine of Predestination into the catholic system. Aquinas taught a strong, for a Roman Catholic anyway, doctrine of Predestination that I couldn't find a *single* contemporary priest or bishop to affirm. I was a basket case. Thanks, humanly speaking, to Dr. Michael Horton within a couple of years I left the RCC after coming to saving knowledge of the Christ. 

Romans 9 is powerful. Early in my RCC years, I emailed one benedictine monk and ask a diocesan priest on another occasion to explain Romans 9. I never received a reply to the email. The verbal response from the diocesan priest was all about what the passage _wasn't_ in the RCC teaching authority. Nothing about what Romans 9 meant. Something, I don't remember what exactly, was muttered about Jansenism. 


Pax,

ZF


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 17, 2009)

Over twenty years ago, I was a Jansenist...and a Jesuit. Imagine that. There are still secret Jansenists in the SoJ, some of whom remain my friends. My Father Confessor was a Jansenist who rationalized remaining in the order to help spread the teachings of Jansenism.

Many have this mistaken view, perpetuated by numerous Jesuit apocryphal conspiracy sites, that the Jesuits are fanatical zealots who blindly follow the Pope. But within the Order there is much discussion and dissent around the dinner tables. The SoJ sees itself as an agent of change within the RCC and has never been shy about forcing that change.

I thank the Lord for providentially leading me out of the order because of my inability to reconcile the Jansenist view that efficacious grace is the only means of regeneration, yet somehow, as Jansenists also believed, I could actually fall away. 

Was I a Christian beforehand? I believe I was and it was because of this that I was led out of the RCC. If I wasn't regenerated, there is no doubt I would still be in the RCC.


----------



## LawrenceU (Mar 17, 2009)

This is fascinating. I overheard a conversation yesterday at a local coffee shop which is across the street from Springhill college, a Jesuit school. Two priests were discussing the issue of grace. One of them was arguing, quietly, for imputation with the other fellow. I listened as well as I could for a while. He seemed to be rock solid in his argument and it was becoming apparent that the other fellow was deeply intrigued.


----------



## ZackF (Mar 17, 2009)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Over twenty years ago, I was a Jansenist...and a Jesuit. Imagine that. There are still secret Jansenists in the SoJ, some of whom remain my friends. My Father Confessor was a Jansenist who rationalized remaining in the order to help spread the teachings of Jansenism.
> 
> Many have this mistaken view, perpetuated by numerous Jesuit apocryphal conspiracy sites, that the Jesuits are fanatical zealots who blindly follow the Pope. But within the Order there is much discussion and dissent around the dinner tables. The SoJ sees itself as an agent of change within the RCC and has never been shy about forcing that change.
> 
> ...



When I saw this I almost fell out of my chair. I remember making fun of the Jesuits constantly. We thought they were heterodox to the extreme. Now it is consoling to know that there might be some considering a good "heresy." Though I think the "change Rome from within" is like fighting the Borg from within. It is futile. I find your story heartening. How long did they have you study before you made final vows if I may ask?


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 18, 2009)

KS_Presby said:


> How long did they have you study before you made final vows if I may ask?


I completed by tertianship and left the Order after I was asked by the Superior General to take my final vows. By then I knew I could not make the commitment that was asked of me. Total time in the order was a wee bit over seven years.


----------



## ZackF (Mar 18, 2009)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> > How long did they have you study before you made final vows if I may ask?
> ...



Wow.


----------

