# Question on 1 John 3:8-10



## christianyouth (Jul 9, 2008)

If I'm reading these verses rightly, then I'm not a Christian. What is your interpretation of these verses?



> 1 John 3:7 - Little children let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, even as he(Christ) is righteous.
> 1 John 3:8 - Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
> 1 John 3:9 - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
> 1 John 3:10 By this is it evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil : whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 9, 2008)

We are all sinners saved by grace and still struggle against sin. Apart from Christ we are in bondage to sin; in Christ we are free not to sin.

A person who is characterized by bondage and not struggle is a non-believer. The person who shows no evidence of this new freedom from a compunction to sin (sorrow for sins, repentance) is not a believer. This is a person who still 'practices' sin.


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## Wannabee (Jul 9, 2008)

The language involves a "habitual linear durative" aspect of sinning. If you sin habitually, with no change, repentance, etc., then your fruit bears out what sort of tree you are. Do you "practice righteousness" as a habit, or "practice sinning?"


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## BobVigneault (Jul 9, 2008)

"habitual linear durative"??????

Thank you for simplifying that for us Joe. 

Who comes up with this stuff? If I could go back in time I would keep the lawyers out of the church.

"habitual linear durative"

"Yes I was born with a "habitual linear durative" but doctors were able to form a brace and now my left leg is a long as the right."

Oh man, you're killing me.


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## Kim G (Jul 9, 2008)

I remember being frightened by these verses when I was a young girl. But I can see the desire in my life to be rid of my sin, even though I'm not perfect. I know I have been freed from sin's power.

Since then, these verses have helped me when talking about the Lord to those around me. Almost everybody in the South, and especially in Greenville SC, says they are Christians. But if their lifestyle is one of debauchery, lack of concern for the Lord's law, etc., then I know to deal with them as an unbeliever. A Christian would not blatantly and habitually practice sin without the chastening hand of God upon them!


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## CovenantalBaptist (Jul 9, 2008)

Dear Andrew,

First, I appreciate your tender heart. Would that more of us would read the Scriptures and seek to apply them as you have to yourself. However, as the confession teaches we must let Scripture interpret Scripture. This passage must be interpreted within the context of the whole book. As you may have heard before: "A text without a context is a pretext for error." 

The fatherly Apostle John knows that we sin and that we struggle as he says earlier in 1 Jn 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." The point that he's making in chapter 3 is that we will not be defined by our sinful patterns and behaviors. The false teachers were openly sinning (probably in various ways, but clearly in denying the dual nature of Jesus) and still calling themselves Christians.

Andrew, I do not know your heart, but please see the gracious heart of the Saviour when His word says in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That is real hope to the helpless and true comfort to the believer who is still a sinner who is saved by God's amazing grace. If you are struggling with sin, I would encourage you to take hold of this promise in 1 Jn 1:9 for it promises not only forgiveness, but also purification. If you know Him, He is your master. Seek Him out and ask others who know you well to pray for you as well.

In His amazing grace


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## Poimen (Jul 9, 2008)

Robert Candlish, _Commentary on 1 John_ “sin should be offensive to me… does it not shock the heavenly instincts of my new-born nature? Do I not feel it now to be beneath me to commit sin? I loathe it, I despise it!” 

S.M. Baugh, _1 John Reader_ "the genuine Christian cannot be characterized by a life of unrepentant sin”


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## moral necessity (Jul 9, 2008)

I think there's perhaps more to it. John Gill had some interesting thougths on these verses dealing with the context being that of apostasy. 

Blessings!


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## Wannabee (Jul 10, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> "habitual linear durative"??????
> 
> Thank you for simplifying that for us Joe.
> 
> ...




Linear. Action that is continuous or durative


There are three essential kinds of action expressed by the Greek tenses. They are: action considered in a single perspective, as a whole, this is called point action (momentary or punctiliar are the terms used by scholars); action regarded as in progress, as a line (you will see the terms linear or durative in different works); and action presented as perfected, which emphasizes its results or abiding state. Simply stated and as a rule, corresponding to these three basic tenses are the aorist, present (in the indicative mood), and perfect (indicative mood). Point action is denoted by the aorist tense; linear or action in progress is suggested by the present, imperfect, and future tenses; and action in a state of completion is denoted by the perfect, pluperfect, and future perfect tenses (I am getting a little ahead of myself).

Lesson Five of Online Greek Course 


Hope that helps


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Jul 10, 2008)

Wannabee said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > "habitual linear durative"??????
> ...



Excellent link. THe answer to this particular question on the text of I John is even found in that article:



> I John 3: 6 has caused many difficulty and grief. The verse reads, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." John said in I John 1: 8 that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Is John contradicting himself and are we in a state of hopelessness? The answer lies in the verb tense of "whosoever sinneth." The verb "sinneth" is amartanwn (ha-mar-tá-non). The verb used by John is present tense. Hence, John is saying one cannot live in sin and know God (cp. Isa. 59: 1, 2). While the Amplified Translation has some failures, it is excellent on verb tense. The Amplified renders I John 3: 6 thus, "No one who abides in Him - who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him…, habitually commits (practices) sin. No one who habitually sins has either seen or known Him…." In I John 1, a single act of sin is being contemplated, in I John 3, the practice of sin is being considered...



Thanks for finding this link.


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## christianyouth (Jul 10, 2008)

The responses so far have been very helpful. 

One more question, does the Apostle have in mind specific sins? Because if he just has in mind sinning in general, then I'm still in big trouble. I fail to love God with my heart, mind, and soul and I don't love my neighbor as myself. Maybe he was speaking of sins that could be readily identified by the congregation? Not sure.


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## larryjf (Jul 10, 2008)

I like how the ESV translates it here...

No one born of God makes a *practice *of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 
(1Jn 3:9)


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## VictorBravo (Jul 10, 2008)

Also keep in mind that John introduces the whole discussion with this fundamental reminder:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1.

John was exhorting his brethren to obey the commandments of Christ. That means he was aware that they would and did fail. The fact that he addressed such people who are likely to fail as "my little children" indicates that he considered those failing people as Christians.


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## KMK (Jul 10, 2008)

Wannabee said:


> Lesson Five of Online Greek Course
> 
> 
> Hope that helps



I took that online course once! The guy who runs it has some strongly Arminian views if I remember correctly, but the course was helpful.


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## christianyouth (Jul 10, 2008)

So is this speaking of sins of commission, only? If it's speaking of sins of omission as well, who can say that they don't *practice sin*?


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## Wannabee (Jul 10, 2008)

victorbravo said:


> Also keep in mind that John introduces the whole discussion with this fundamental reminder:
> 
> "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1.
> 
> John was exhorting his brethren to obey the commandments of Christ. That means he was aware that they would and did fail. The fact that he addressed such people who are likely to fail as "my little children" indicates that he considered those failing people as Christians.



This needs to be kept at the forefront of our minds any time we read Scripture, and perhaps nowhere more so than in 1 John. Many issues come up in this book that are addressed in context. Attempting to work through one verse, or even a pericope, without the context of the whole book can lead to wrong thinking. A good example is 1 John 1:9. 

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​
There are those who would teach that this is a one time occurance. That's wrong. Again, it's habitual action indicaitive of sanctification in Christ. This is how one behaves and there is a certain sense in which it is both cause and effect of our growth in righteousness. The two aspects of our walk, in this instance, are so interwoven as to be two strands of the same cord. Yet, out of context and without careful consideration of the words and grammar used, many errors can be developed. Consider this example.


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## moral necessity (Jul 10, 2008)

christianyouth said:


> So is this speaking of sins of commission, only? If it's speaking of sins of omission as well, who can say that they don't *practice sin*?



Excellent point, Andrew! If we take this as referring to a practice of sinning, then what about a practice of sins of omission? The questions then become not just have I coveted the things of my neighbor, but do I actively seek after my neighbor's needs and lovingly reach out to meet them. And, is it my habit to not do such reaching out to my neighbor. The questions become not just have I stolen, but have I given when I didn't need to. Not just have I provided for and fed my family, but have I fed the poor. Not just have I committed a sin, but have I practiced the righteousness of Christ. And, what is my habit in regard to sins of omission. This is part of what makes me lean towards a different understanding of the verses. In reality, sin indwells and is part of every single action we do, and, in that sense, we practice sin all of the time. Sin corrupts every prayer, every action, every behavior; we are like a faucet that runs both cold and hot water. The cold is always present. Yet, we are different than the unregenerate, for they have no hot water running at all in them. We alone have both. And so, the opposite is also true with regard to every action. We have the new nature indwelling and being part of every single action we do, and, in that sense, we practice righteousness all of the time also. It also accompanies every prayer, every action, every behavior, etc. So, no one who is born of God truly sins in the same sense as he did before. Yet, I still tend to think that the verse has other implications as well, and may well refer to the sin of apostacy. In that sense, it would imply that no one who is born of God will apostacize, for his seed remains in him, and he cannot do so because he has been born of God. The context of the book speaks towards this as well. See Ch.2:18-29 and Ch.4:1-6, which speak of apostacy and acts like a contextual sandwich between Chapter 3. And, John himself says why he wrote the letter in Ch.5:13, which was to give them assurance as to their salvation in that they would not fall away. And Ch.5:16-18 speaks of this sin unto death, ie. apostacy, to which their prayers would not benefit. And, he goes on to assure them that they who believe in Christ will not commit this sin, for Christ will keep them and they will not fall away (ch.5:18). To me, it's a letter of great encouragement that was very necessary, as many antichrists were entering the scene and many were leaving Christ and were seducing others to follow them. So, John wrote this so that "they might not sin" or be led astray from Christ (ch.2:1). So, that's where I tend to lean in the discussion. 

Blessings!


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## MW (Jul 10, 2008)

KMK said:


> Wannabee said:
> 
> 
> > Lesson Five of Online Greek Course
> ...



If it taught that different tenses indicate different kinds of action then it might be worthwhile erasing it from the human hard drive.


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## KMK (Jul 10, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Wannabee said:
> ...



Unfortunately I did not come equipped with a recovery disc!


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## MW (Jul 10, 2008)

KMK said:


> Unfortunately I did not come equipped with a recovery disc!



 Surely it didn't affect your operating system?


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## turmeric (Jul 10, 2008)

Bawb, that "durative" thing wasn't a lawyer word, it was a linguist word! Arrrrghh!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 10, 2008)

Poimen said:


> Robert Candlish, _Commentary on 1 John_ “sin should be offensive to me… does it not shock the heavenly instincts of my new-born nature? Do I not feel it now to be beneath me to commit sin? I loathe it, I despise it!”


Love this quote.

Great counsel above.

A few thoughts. I don't want to completely give this a cultural context but John does deal with Gnostics in this Epistle and one of the characteristics of some Gnostics was to have an attitude that what happens in the flesh is not important.

Whether or not he has that particular group in mind, I imagine he has the idea that people feel they have license to sin in mind. If you read Romans 5-8 in succession then it should help you to understand a certain progression of thinking as the assurance of God's favor toward us in the Gospel is developed, in a nutshell, along these lines:

Romans 5: God saves us to the uttermost. If He saved you while He was your enemy do you suppose He will cast you off now that you have been made His friend?

Romans 6: Some might think that if God's grace is manifest in our wickedness that we ought to sin so that grace may abound. God forbid. In fact, I believe this is the tenor of John's admonition. The Apostles teach that those who have been saved have been united to Christ not for licentiousness but for obedience. In sinning, it's not that you are no longer a son but that you are not acting according to the character you have been redeemed to. You're called to remind yourself whose you are.

Romans 7: This war is confirmed in Paul's members who, like us all, knows what he desires to do in his redeemed mind but finds another desire that is battling within. He does the things that he does not want. He knows what is right but does not always do it. Who will deliver him from this body of death? Who will deliver us? Will it be your effort? Will it be your seriousness? Will you earn your way back into being a son again? No! I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

Romans 8: Culminates the point that, though you have many enemies against you - including the devil and his minions that would convince you that you're not worthy of this salvation - in your groaning and your crying out - in your suffering under the weight of sin and struggling against it - do not despair. If you are looking to the Cross, friend, then the Holy Spirit will come alongside of you - your paraclete - and testify to your spirit that you are a Son of God. Indeed, brother, if God has set you upright and has cast His eternal favor upon you and has foreloved you then NOTHING can separate you from the love of God in Christ. If God is for you, friend, then who can be against you.

I urge you, therefore, not to look within for the resources to combat this angst but look again at the perfect Savior. Look again at the great High Priest who made a once-for-all sacrifice for sin and then sat down at the right hand of God and ever lives to intercede for His own. Do you believe in His work? Do you despair of your own ability to approach God apart from His Work? If so, then approach boldly because you have access to grace through the veil of His flesh and you need not doubt the good intentions that God has for you.

Then when you see more clearly what God has done for you in the Gospel will you see more clearly how your reasonable service comes into focus. Never cease striving against sin. Resist it until you sweat. Resist to to point of blood. But don't think your resistance is because you're trying to become acceptable to God. Resist it because you _have_ been made acceptable by God in Christ Jesus. Resist it because you're an adopted Son who wants to learn how to love His Father. Hate your sin but don't hate that which God has called by name.


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## christianyouth (Jul 11, 2008)

Wow, amen, thank you.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 11, 2008)

So one dissects words and the other plays games with them. They're all the same.

(I'm practicing to be a grumpy old man.) Hey! You kids get away from that car!!




turmeric said:


> Bawb, that "durative" thing wasn't a lawyer word, it was a linguist word! Arrrrghh!


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## Galatians220 (Jul 11, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> So one dissects words and the other plays games with them. They're all the same.
> 
> (I'm practicing to be a grumpy old man.) Hey! You kids get away from that car!!
> 
> ...


 
If "durative" isn't a "lawyer word," it should be one!  Forthwith. Someone should be put in charge of notifying all state bar associations without further delay. Get a letter out and send it by certified mail, return receipt requested.

Any profession that relies upon things like "The Last Clear Chance Doctrine" should be able to obfuscate civil dialogue and discourse, not to mention to "have a chilling effect upon" anyone and everyone that enters its reach, by incorporating by reference as though set forth both _infra _and_ supra_ the word "durative" wherever remotely applicable.

I hereby reserve the right to use the word "durative" as necessary. I am the only one with the power to take charge of, control, manipulate, handle or otherwise exercise my right to the use of the word "durative." Upon my death, my right to use the word "durative" will pass to my "natural body" heirs.

Further, poster saith not.

    

Margaret

(It's finally happened: working as a paralegal, now in virtually all areas of private practice, has driven me _stark raving nuts._  )


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## BobVigneault (Jul 11, 2008)

Margaret, I have "natural body" heirs but I find that if I shave them they just come back darker and more coarse.


(Must be Friday )


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## toddpedlar (Jul 11, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Margaret, I have "natural body" heirs but I find that if I shave them they just come back darker and more coarse.
> 
> 
> (Must be Friday )



 TMI!


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## Galatians220 (Jul 11, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > Margaret, I have "natural body" heirs but I find that if I shave them they just come back darker and more coarse.
> ...


 
   

Margaret


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## py3ak (Jul 11, 2008)

1 John 3, in the nature of the case, cannot contradict James 3:2, _In many things we offend all_. John's statements must be understood in a matter that is in harmony with James.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 11, 2008)

Galatians220 said:


> (It's finally happened: working as a paralegal, now in virtually all areas of private practice, has driven me _stark raving nuts._  )



Hey, I resemble that remark!


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## Kentucky Kid (Jul 13, 2008)

*I John 3:8-10*

I John 3:8-10: when speaking of "committeth sin", and "doth not commit sin", and "doeth not righteousness" (KJV)- it is dealing with the fact of imputation. Either a sinner has Christ's righteousness imputed to them and they are not charged with their sin, or a sinner has their sins charged to them. So all sinners either have Christ's righteousness imputed to them or their sins imputed to them. Hence I John 3:8 can be interpreted: "He that is charged with their sin is of the devil"; and I John 3:9- "Whosoever is born of God is not charged with their sin". In verse 10 "doeth not righteousness" is a person who does not have Christ's righteousness imputed to them............KK


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## bookslover (Jul 13, 2008)

christianyouth said:


> So is this speaking of sins of commission, only? If it's speaking of sins of omission as well, who can say that they don't *practice sin*?



The answer is, "no one." The key here, as others have said, is that, having sinned, the true Christian realizes that he has sinned and goes to the Lord in confession and repentance. An unbeliever sins and has no interest in repentance, or even any true knowledge of it. Keeping short accounts with God is a sign that one is a true Christian (1 John 1:8-9).


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 13, 2008)

Galatians220 said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> > So one dissects words and the other plays games with them. They're all the same.
> ...





I do love some good legal humor...


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