# Baxter and Gouge - 6 hours of sleep??



## deleteduser99 (Sep 13, 2015)

I would like some insight.

Eight hours a day is usually what people today need for rest. In my reading I was surprised to find the following two quotes on what two Puritan pastors considered sufficient sleep.

"To some five hours is enough; to the ordinary sort of healthful persons six hours is enough; to many weak, valetudinary spirits seven hours is needful; to the sick persons I am not to give directions." - Richard Baxter

"Yet by experience it hath been observed that for sound and healthy bodies, five hours is the least time that may be allowed,and seven hours is time sufficient for any." - William Gouge, Domestical Duties

Six hours for most today would be far too little. Why did these men think that five or six hours would be sufficient to maintain good health? This level of sleep today would leave most of us tired, unproductive, irritable, and we would probably die early. What accounts for this difference between today and then? What was different 350 years ago that five or six hours of sleep was enough?


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 13, 2015)

Harley said:


> Six hours for most today would be far too little. Why did these men think that five or six hours would be sufficient to maintain good health? This level of sleep today would leave most of us tired, unproductive, irritable, and we would probably die early.



I can tell you, from personal experience, that one can train the body where 6 hours of sleep is sufficient (and, in fact, seems like a lot of sleep). It doesn't take long to where your body will crave more if you consistently give it more but that 7 hours is more than plenty for me and I rarely get 8. I went a whole semester in college where I got 5 hours of sleep a night (taking 22 credit hours in an Engineering curriculum along with military drills).

Frankly, the oder I get it seems to me that I need less than I used to. There was a time when I stressed out about getting to bed early because I've always been an early riser. Now I just deal with the sleep I've gotten.

I'd also add that people didn't live very long at the time of the Puritans. I think a lot of them had a sense of urgency about a life well lived that many of us lack.


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## Miss Marple (Sep 13, 2015)

Having raised several children I'll opine that different people have different sleep needs and you can't put them all in a box.

To expect that everyone, for example, can train themselves to do well on six hours could be very cruel to those who really need ten in order to function rationally.

If you are really sleeping, not just lying there, you are not being lazy.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 13, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> To expect that everyone, for example, can train themselves to do well on six hours could be very cruel to those who really need ten in order to function rationally.


I don't know where you get the idea of cruelty. I'm simply noting that one is able to train the body to do things that we assume we cannot at times. Certainly there are people who naturally need less sleep than others. that said, in a population of 1000 people, I think the sleep patterns will run the gamut and, after being a Marine for over 21 years, I can attest to the fact that people who were accustomed to believing they _needed_ 10-12 hours of sleep or that they were not "morning people" can, after an extended period of time, train their bodies to do things they thought they were incapable of doing.


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## rickclayfan (Sep 13, 2015)

I heard that Calvin slept only 4 hours a night. As for me, I've realized that most of the difficulty we (those who have a healthy body) have with little sleep is the mindset that we have been instilled with that anything less than 7-8 is unhealthy and will kill you. So most of it is psychological. You know that you had little sleep and that you must be sleepy because of that, so we make ourselves sleepy and tired because of this. Personally, I can manage well the whole day with five hours of sleep. The only difficulty being that self-pitying mindset. I don't know what the case is with those who have to do hard labor. The body, in that case, will truly be tired with such little sleep, regardless of the mindset. As for those who are devoted to mental and spiritual labor, five hours is sufficient.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## BGF (Sep 13, 2015)

I typically operate on 6 hours. 7 is a good night. Anything more than 8 hours causes physical pain.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2015)

BGF said:


> I typically operate on 6 hours. 7 is a good night. Anything more than 8 hours causes physical pain.



Ditto here. 6 hours is fine, normally. After a week of sleeping 11-5, I might go 9-5 on a Friday. My bones ache in the morning when that happens.

In my ranching days during calving season, I'd go 3 hours, then up to check cows, sleep another 3 hours if there were no problems, then stay up rest of day. Of course, about three times a week there were problems, so 2-3 hours sleep was all I could get.

Catnaps alternated with coffee made me feel just fine, except by week 5 I was bumping into things.


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## kodos (Sep 13, 2015)

6 hours here as well. As Rich mentions a lot of it has to do with retraining your body from what our society says is necessary.

I find that I cannot sleep more than 7 hours even on days that I can "sleep in". Part of this is that there just is so much important work to do!

I do get more sleep on the Lord's Day, which gives me a lot of refreshment for the week.


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## Edward (Sep 13, 2015)

rickclayfan said:


> I heard that Calvin slept only 4 hours a night.


And he was 54 when he died. So the lesson is: if you want to live as long as Calvin, cut back on your sleep.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## rickclayfan (Sep 13, 2015)

Edward said:


> And he was 54 when he died. So the lesson is: if you want to live as long as Calvin, cut back on your sleep.



Life lived is not be measured by the number of years we lived, but the number of hours we were awake and productive. A man may have lived 100 years and could still have lived less than a man who lived 50 years.


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## Philip (Sep 13, 2015)

6-7 is my typical night, though I tend to take the idea of the Sabbath as a day of rest rather literally, often sleeping in to 7:30.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 13, 2015)

As some posts of mine will attest, I sleep but about 4 hours each day between 3AM-7AM. I had to train my body to do so over a couple of years back in the eighties. I had read that Edison only slept in 15 minute increments throughout each 24 hr day. The budding engineer in me thought that was "kewl" and explained his prolific inventiveness. Yet, a few months into my regimen to emulate Edison I often hallucinated while "awake". In the end I had to settle for some real REM level sleep and 4 hours worked. If one does the math, I gain around two months (60.833 days) of wakefulness each year, or an added year of wakefulness for each six years of my life. So much to do and so little time to do it. I am glad God has given me the ability to do so. My wife has been quite ill for many years, mostly bedridden, so my days are spent tending to her and my nights filled with work and spiritual matters.

My health is about what one expects for a man in his sixties, including heart issues, but my docs do not advise I get more sleep.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 13, 2015)

Edward said:


> rickclayfan said:
> 
> 
> > I heard that Calvin slept only 4 hours a night.
> ...



I think the fact that he probably had asthma didn't help...

J.I. Packer once commented on the Puritans and Reformed (and how sickly they were) to imagine a life without something as simple as aspirin.

One of the biggest contributors to our increased longevity is actually improvements in dental care.


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## py3ak (Sep 13, 2015)

John Wesley's simple plan for finding out how much sleep you needed involved getting up an hour earlier each day until you stopped waking up in the night. His theory was that if you woke up in the night, it meant you were getting more sleep than you needed. He didn't think most people could function with less than 4, if I remember correctly, and thought his own need for 6 hours was a bit much.

I think many people with chronic illnesses often limp along on perhaps 2 or 3 hours a night for years; but while the chronic illness may have contributed to sleeplessness, the insomnia contributes to bad days with the chronic illness.

Once after going two nights with no sleep at all, I found that while I could close my eyes and follow the Sunday School lesson with no difficulty, if I ever opened my eyes I saw two teachers.


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## Justified (Sep 13, 2015)

Any advice on training oneself for less sleep? This is an area I think I need to improve in. I sleep too much (usually 8ish hours). I know it's not just because of my body; I used to operate with 7 or less.


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## BGF (Sep 13, 2015)

VictorBravo said:


> BGF said:
> 
> 
> > I typically operate on 6 hours. 7 is a good night. Anything more than 8 hours causes physical pain.
> ...



Bones ache. Dead on description.


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## BGF (Sep 13, 2015)

Justified said:


> Any advice on training oneself for less sleep? This is an area I think I need to improve in. I sleep too much (usually 8ish hours). I know it's not just because of my body; I used to operate with 7 or less.



I can't say I have any tips. I was always a night owl and when I had to be up at 5 am for work I was never able to adjust the evening hours. I just got used to it out of necessity. I suspect that, just like any other discipline, it's a matter of having the will to do what's necessary to form a habit. If you're a coffee drinker like me, try setting your coffee maker the night before for the time you want to wake up and place it somewhere where you can smell it.


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## deleteduser99 (Sep 13, 2015)

I did not expect the replies which I have gotten here, but I posted this expecting answers that advocated the typical 8-hour sleep schedule and that these men were anomalies. I'm surprised by the replies, but very thankful. The two quotes in the OP stuck in my mind when I read them because they were shocking to me. I could not believe Baxter and Gouge would recommend five to six hours of sleep if they believed some of the things we believe about sleep today; that is, it destroys your health, impairs your productivity and shortens your life. Therefore I was prompted to investigate the matter further.

Another reason I had asked is because a good friend of mine who flies all over the world tells me that he gets about four hours of sleep per night, and if he gets more than six hours he gets a migraine. The man is a work-horse, and he states he is in good health. I asked him about how to work into such a sleep schedule, and he insists that it's doable; hard, but certainly possible.

Patrick, what I had been seeking to know is if people with this kind of sleep schedule suffered any serious impairments in other areas because of the trade-off (eg. poor physical health, poor mental health, low productivity, etc.). You answered my unspoken question, which is, do those with such sleep schedules suffer any bad side effects? If so, what? Or are they usually better off health-wise?

I ask because I am considering whether I myself could slowly work into a similar sleep schedule. Not all at once, advancing very slowly, but I could see where it would be more to the glory of God. We have only so many years on earth, and so if I could sleep for fewer hours each day (and still get good quality, sufficient rest) it would be a way of maximizing fruitfulness.

Thank you all who have replied so far!


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## Pergamum (Sep 13, 2015)

http://slumberwise.com/science/your-ancestors-didnt-sleep-like-you/

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/24/average-daily-nightly-sleep-country-world_n_3805886.html

http://www.history.vt.edu/Ekirch/sleepcommentary.html

I suspect Baxter and Gouge and some others equate lesser sleep with greater levels of spirituality and so under-estimate their weekly sleep totals or else write in a prescriptive manner about how much sleep we "should" need instead of how much sleep most people get or need to feel rested. Or else they don't count mid-day naps. 

We may function on little sleep and be functional to some degree, but an extra hour helps one feel more rested. Also, when younger, I functioned on little sleep and now need more. I doubt if there is a societal conspiracy trying to convince us that we need more sleep than we actually need.


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## JimmyH (Sep 13, 2015)

I'm not going to google it, but a relatively recent article in the NYT, or the equivalent, suggested that 8 hours is recommended for health, and that 'sleep deprivation' is quite unhealthy. In the time of the Puritans average life span was something under 50 years old, though many lived longer. Of course longevity, or the lack, was far more complicated than a person's average nights sleep.

I'm alright with 6, probably average 7. I'm good if I get 8, feeling refreshed, but more than 8 and I'm sluggish. Less than 6 and I'm 'shot out.' I couldn't function on 4 hours per night. I'm in my late 60s, healthy. Ride bicycles on the road and on singletrack trails. Walk vigorously for exercise on a regular basis. I smoke tobacco pipes too much, but I don't inhale. By the grace of God, so far so good.

*Aching bones* ........ I had a serious problem with this for an extended period of time. My primary care, at my request, x-rayed my ankles, knees, shins, and hips. Degenerative arthritis in all with 'no further treatment recommended at this time.' 

I was quite despondent over this, as I figured if I feel like this now, what will it be like if I live 10 more years. At the same time I was resistent to my doctor telling me that my level of vitamin D3 was low and that I should take a supplement. I don't take any medication at all. 

After a year of his admonitions I began taking 1,000 IU per day. After 6 months of that I was still low on D3. He upped the dose to 5000 IU a day. Within two or three weeks the pain in my bones, mostly shins and ankles disappeared. My D3 level became normal, and I'm now doing 2,000 IU per day. 

I'd encourage anyone who has aching bones to check on their D3 level. A google search for D3 deficiency reveals that two of the symptoms for elderly folks with low D3 are fatigue, and aching bones.

Finally, Reverend Charles Hadden Spurgeon on sleep ; http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0012.htm


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## TylerRay (Sep 13, 2015)

rickclayfan said:


> I heard that Calvin slept only 4 hours a night.



I wonder if Calvin drank coffee.

Anyway, I'd better hit the sack. I have to be up in six and a half hours, and that is pretty well my minimum (though these days it is becoming my standard).


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## Miss Marple (Sep 13, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Miss Marple said:
> 
> 
> > To expect that everyone, for example, can train themselves to do well on six hours could be very cruel to those who really need ten in order to function rationally.
> ...



I got the idea of cruelty in reference to children, as I was referencing child rearing. Sometimes we get ideas in our heads, like "No one needs more than six hours of sleep each night." I think it's untrue, and since I was referencing my experience with it in regards to raising children with very different sleep needs, I went into "cruelty" mode. Were I to force a couple of my kids into six hour nights, for example, would have been cruel. They would have been miserable, and nuts. And sick.

It is true we can work towards the best personal habits and we should not be lazy. It's just that people are not cookie cutters. Ibuprofen works for my headaches; aspirin works for yours; nothing works for my neighbor but ice packs; you know, there is not a one size fits all for most human physical needs or optimization.

Threads like this, or topics like this, seem to have an attitude of Positive Thinking With Norman Vincent Peale, you know, "If you believe you can do it, you can!" Like I THINK I can climb Half Dome; and if I fail to do so, well, I just don't have sufficient personal discipline. It can get cruel, quickly, to have these (unbiblical) expectations of people.

For example if the notion goes around your family or your church that needing more than six hours per night means you are lazy or self-indulgent, well, vulnerable people might start curtailing their sleep and some will probably not do well, either physically OR mentally, that way. Insufficient sleep will, actually, kill you. Not enough sleep and you literally go insane.

This is not to defend laziness or self indulgence; just trying to speak up for those who are sensitive to these things (if you chew your food sixty times your health will be perfect; you should exercise vigorously an hour a day to live longer; if you drank raw juices only you'd never get sick; if you didn't use antibiotics you'd never get cancer; if you swish with oil you'd have no tooth decay), am I making sense? I've just seen so many similar fads go around and I've seen the most tender get hurt because they are trying to meet everyone else's expectations.

If you thrive on four hours, go for it. I wish I did!

Reactions: Like 1


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## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2015)

JimmyH said:


> I'd encourage anyone who has aching bones to check on their D3 level. A google search for D3 deficiency reveals that two of the symptoms for elderly folks with low D3 are fatigue, and aching bones.



I had that looked at, everything is fine on D levels, hormones, etc. Even my cholesterol is strangely low, given that I eat 4 eggs a day, lots of meat, and very few vegetables (that's my main complaint, almost anything green gives me stomach cramps, but tomatoes and hot peppers are fine, if well-cooked). I like fruit, though, and we are enjoying a bunch of homegrown apples, strawberries, blackberries, etc.

Even as a teenager I'd get sore from staying in bed too long. I also get back aches from standing in shopping malls, but, on the other hand, I can walk 19 miles on pavement or rock and not have any complaints. It's probably in my mind.

The main reason for my aching bones is probably the herniated disks in my neck, the 5 knee operations (from HS and college sports) the shoulder reconstruction I had when I was 17, and even the popped knuckle I had a few months ago pulling on a wrench at a wrong angle with one finger. And my elbows have apparently become irreversibly achy from the major remodel I did back in 2010. 

I'm somewhat beat up, but not nearly like the old-timers I grew up with. I've had it pretty soft and sedentary compared to the old ranchers and loggers I knew. I can still run, do pullups and pushups every morning, walk briskly all day and read and write when it gets dark. But then, I'm still a young 57.

My wife, on the other hand, needs 9 hours sleep. I wouldn't dream of making my peculiar schedule be a prescription for others.

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## Edward (Sep 13, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I think the fact that he probably had asthma didn't help...



Well, Stonewall Jackson was another man noted for little sleep supplemented by naps. He died at 39. 

As for me, I'd best be off to bed.


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## bookslover (Sep 13, 2015)

Since sleep is one of God's good gifts, why would you want to cut back on it?

I think Miss Marple's advice in post #22 is wise. One-size-fits-all solutions almost never work - certainly not for everyone. Just because Calvin existed on four hours of sleep doesn't mean I have to (or anyone else). Get a proper amount of sleep based on your own system and common sense. (I usually go to bed between 11:30 and midnight, and get up usually between 8 and 9 am. I had to get up at 6 AM for many years and am very glad that I don't have to do that anymore. I am DEFINITELY not a morning person.)


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## deleteduser99 (Sep 13, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Miss Marple said:
> ...



May God prevent such an outcome from my inquiry! I don't have any desire that anyone's conscience here should be burdened because of what I ask, and I hope that no one will go on a reckless course because I have asked about this.

I have only one goal and intention, and that is to know if this is something that_ I_ should do, if _l_ could better glorify God by doing this, and to know if I should even try. I've seen other good and godly men do it (Gouge and Baxter included, also Wesley, Whitefield, Calvin, others), and I have the word of my good friend, though by no means do I desire to imply that everyone ought to do the same. That's a matter strictly between them and God and I am perfectly happy to leave it there, whether they get four hours or ten. I do see an opportunity to maximize my gifts in the advancement of the kingdom and to glorify God and so I want to ask about it. Perhaps I should leave the matter to rest at 8 hours without any exceptional efforts to do otherwise. If God leads me that way, then I'm fine. That's his gift of sleep to me and I will take it as a gift, though I do not mind giving a little ways more into work and service for him if that would indeed be best. I would certainly never impose this idea on my nursing wife, whose sleep is crucial not only for her health but also the health of our baby. And most certainly would I _never _impose this as a standard for small children!

Though, I do want to continue to investigating this subject, and so would like to hear what others have to say, whether they present me with pros or cons.

And what i do want to know most specifically is if those who have such schedules manage to stay at an acceptable level of health and manage to stay proficient and productive in their daily callings.


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## JimmyH (Sep 14, 2015)

Edward said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I think the fact that he probably had asthma didn't help...
> ...


Getting shot with a volley in the chest may have exacerbated Mighty Stonewall's condition.


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## bookslover (Sep 14, 2015)

Harley said:


> I have only one goal and intention, and that is to know if this is something that_ I_ should do, if _l_ could better glorify God by doing this, and to know if I should even try. I've seen other good and godly men do it (Gouge and Baxter included, also Wesley, Whitefield, Calvin, others)



I suspect that these men accomplished as much as they did primarily because they were highly disciplined and organized individuals when they were awake - regardless of how much sleep they got, whether 4 hours or 8. Less sleep doesn't automatically mean you'll accomplish more.


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## JimmyH (Sep 14, 2015)

Another thought regarding Baxter, Calvin, Wesley and others of that period. No television, or internet. No 'smart phones'. Theirs was a life of the mind. I've often thought on how much Calvin wrote in his relatively short life, and Richard Baxter, so I've read, wrote more than even Owen and Calvin ! Perhaps they were driven men, and didn't have the distractions we suffer with. Twenty four hour news cycles, and endless media available to us.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Sep 14, 2015)

Harley said:


> Patrick, what I had been seeking to know is if people with this kind of sleep schedule suffered any serious impairments in other areas because of the trade-off (eg. poor physical health, poor mental health, low productivity, etc.). You answered my unspoken question, which is, do those with such sleep schedules suffer any bad side effects? If so, what? Or are they usually better off health-wise?
> 
> I ask because I am considering whether I myself could slowly work into a similar sleep schedule. Not all at once, advancing very slowly, but I could see where it would be more to the glory of God. We have only so many years on earth, and so if I could sleep for fewer hours each day (and still get good quality, sufficient rest) it would be a way of maximizing fruitfulness.



I began by staying up to 12AM for one month and rising at my usual time. I then moved to 1AM for one month, then repeated the process for 2AM, 3AM, and 4AM. The 4AM attempt failed miserably as I was unable to get any REM sleep and awoke quite irritable and annoying to all around me. The 3AM time was my personal sweet spot and has been for nearly thirty years now. I find I am twice as productive in the late hours than I would be in the daytime. I am providentially blessed to be able to work at home as a wireless communications engineering intellectual property consultant and faculty mentor at two online seminaries. The international aspect of both makes my sleep schedule convenient for real-time communications with parties in Europe, Asia-Pacific, and India.

I have always been very nocturnal by nature, so I suspect that also contributes to my ability to maintain this sleep schedule. While in Vietnam I made quite a business of taking night guard duty shifts while in the boonies, trading for certain c-rations, Tabasco sauce (essential on all c-rations for taste!) and selected care package contents. I was a demolitions expert (MOS 89D) at the time and while humping in the jungle not permitted to carry the C-4, but only the blasting caps. The idea being that should I be shot the only thing blowing up would be just myself. The "11-bush" infantrymen with me had to distribute and carry the C-4 I used. This left my rucksack roomy enough for all the goodies.


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## Jack K (Sep 14, 2015)

Sleeping less seldom allows me to get more done. I may spend more time working, but that time is less productive. On those rare days that I get close to eight hours of sleep the night before, I more than make up for a late start at work with increased alertness and productivity. Sleep is healthy and good. (And some of the Puritans seem to have been a tad over-zealous about keeping track of all the work hours they put in and seeing restful breaks as stemming from character flaws.)


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 14, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> Threads like this, or topics like this, seem to have an attitude of Positive Thinking With Norman Vincent Peale, you know, "If you believe you can do it, you can!" Like I THINK I can climb Half Dome; and if I fail to do so, well, I just don't have sufficient personal discipline. It can get cruel, quickly, to have these (unbiblical) expectations of people.



While I agree with your general concern that people are different and that there are no "cookie cutter" solutions the above statement is patently absurd.

Can you cover a marathon distance in a day? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe you can.

I know, right now, that I cannot run a marathon but having _trained_ for and completed five marathons I know how to train my body for one.

The first time I flew the the Far East and back I was wrecked for a couple of days in terms of sleep and exhaustion. After living there for 3 years and having to make that trip a number of times my body became accustomed to something that was very hard on the system the first time.

When Paul says that he disciplines his body in 1 Cor 9:27 to control its lusts then this is not "positive thinking" but training.

Yes, I agree, let's not make hasty generalizations (which I have not) about whether or not some people may require more sleep than others but let us not likewise compare the training of the body to the power of positive thinking.

My experience is that many people assume they would be non-functional without a certain amount of sleep precisely because they always get a certain amount of sleep. It's pretty hard to put that to the test if the person is both out of shape and never has, for an extended period of time, tried a different sleeping pattern.

I'm not arguing for any ideal number of hours of sleep. I'm not telling people to go out and tell people they're lazy. I'm simply making a broad observation about an ability to train the body. Whether or not what we may become accustomed to is good for you is another thing. I once went an extended period of time getting 3.5-4 hours of sleep a night and drank too much coffee as a result. I thinnk it led to some unheatlthy mineral deficits and I used to wake up with the worst kind of muscle cramps.

Lately, I've generally settled on about 7 hours of sleep as feeling really rested but I usurally get 6. Last night I got 5 and I'm functioning fine. I'd like to take a 15 minute nap right after lunch but, alas, no cot nearby. Sleepiness for me is when I get up earlier than I'm accustomed. It seems to matter less that I got 6 hours of sleep and woke up at 5:30 than if I get 7 hours of sleep and wake up at 4. It's the getting up at 4 that makes me more sleepy later in the day.


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## Logan (Sep 14, 2015)

One of my favourite quotes regarding a PG Wodehouse-type character:



K.J. Parker said:


> Orsea never slept during the day; indeed, he resented sleep on principle, the way people resent paying taxes. It wasn't fair, he'd told her once, that nature only gave you a very short time on earth, and then saw fit to steal a third of it back from you. At one time he'd tried to train himself to make do with less of it---like a devious banker, he'd said, clipping little bits off the edges of coins. If he learned how to get by on seven hours a night instead of eight, he'd told her, at the end of a year he'd have gained fifteen days. Suppose he lived another forty years; that'd be over eighteen months, absolutely free.
> 
> But it hadn't lasted, of course. He struggled through six weeks of the new regime, yawning and drifting off into day-dreams, and then issued a revised opinion. Scrounging extra time by neglecting a vital function like sleep was counterproductive. For every waking hour gained you sacrificed two or three spent in a daze halfway between concussion and a bad hangover. In fact, eight hours wasn't really enough. Nine hours, on the other hand; nine hours would lose you eighteen months, theoretically speaking, but the extra energy and zest you'd get from being properly rested would mean you'd fit more activity into your voluntarily truncated life than you'd manage to wring out of your unnaturally extended one.



I seem to do well on 7. In the unlikely event I am able to sleep any longer I have trouble getting to sleep the following night.


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## Jake (Sep 14, 2015)

I have experimented with different levels of sleep, but I find less than 8-9 and its painful to get up in the morning. I usually sleep through the night and wake up very pleasantly and quite awake at the time of my alarm. Even cutting an hour short seems to be different for me. But, I would say it is different for each person.


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## Edward (Sep 14, 2015)

JimmyH said:


> Getting shot with a volley in the chest may have exacerbated Mighty Stonewall's condition.



No, two in the arm, one in the hand. He died of pneumonia. And since lack of sleep can weaken the immune system, it is impossible at this late date to determine the extent that his lack of sleep may have contributed to his death. Certainly, his last words were about rest. 

"Yes, lack of sleep can affect your immune system. Studies show that people who don't get quality sleep or enough sleep are more likely to get sick after being exposed to a virus, such as a common cold virus. Lack of sleep can also affect how fast you recover if you do get sick."
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/insomnia/expert-answers/lack-of-sleep/faq-20057757


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## Miss Marple (Sep 14, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> know, right now, that I cannot run a marathon but having trained for and completed five marathons I know how to train my body for one.



Of course, many can. All can't, though. I might even say most can't, if we include all ages of people.

No question we can and should discipline ourselves to be at our best. It's just that "our best" can differ, and what works for some or most does not necessarily work for all.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 14, 2015)

Miss Marple said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > know, right now, that I cannot run a marathon but having trained for and completed five marathons I know how to train my body for one.
> ...



The issue is not whether all can complete a marathon. Just as Paul used an analogy to speak of training the body, I was pointing out the nature of _discipline_ and training of the body which you had uncharitably dismissed as sounding like the power of positive thinking.



> No question we can and should discipline ourselves to be at our best. It's just that "our best" can differ, and what works for some or most does not necessarily work for all.



I don't believe I have claimed that what works for some works for all.


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## Clark-Tillian (Sep 14, 2015)

Major kudos to the pithy response! I find I need less the later I remain awake. if Ii went to bed at 9pm and awoke at 2am, most folks would be in awe (what a mensch), but I'd probably be the most miserable curmudgeon in North America. However, if I go to bed at 3am and awake at 8-9am then I seem to be fine. 





JimmyH said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Semper Fidelis said:
> ...


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## tantely (Sep 15, 2015)

Edward said:


> rickclayfan said:
> 
> 
> > I heard that Calvin slept only 4 hours a night.
> ...


Calvin didn't die because of lack of sleep.

T.A


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## bookslover (Sep 15, 2015)

Harley said:


> I have only one goal and intention, and that is to know if this is something that_ I_ should do, if _l_ could better glorify God by doing this, and to know if I should even try.



You know your body best, what it can take and what it can't. Don't try to deprive yourself of sleep just because some famous people who lived hundreds of years ago did. Besides, if you don't get all the sleep you need, your body will eventually exact its revenge on you!


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## VictorBravo (Sep 15, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> if Ii went to bed at 9pm and awoke at 2am, most folks would be in awe (what a mensch), but I'd probably be the most miserable curmudgeon in North America. However, if I go to bed at 3am and awake at 8-9am then I seem to be fine.



I've noticed a similar thing. Except I think many would think I'm a curmudgeon regardless of when or how long I sleep.


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## ZackF (Sep 15, 2015)

Edward said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I think the fact that he probably had asthma didn't help...
> ...



For one thing Jackson was shot. I'm sure bullets are worse for health and longevity than missing a little shut-eye.

I suppose I am a 6.5-7 hour person provided that I haven't had any recent shortages of sleep. When I sleep has always mattered more to me than how much. I feel like a complete loser if I'm out of bed later than 730am no matter how tired I am. In recent years I've not always had first shift so If I go to bed at 1AM then I'm a total zombie getting up at 530-600am. Furthermore since marrying six years ago, we discovered I am more of a morning person where she would rather be up late. Dovetailing on what Rich said, sleep requirements are probably distributed in a standard way. Sleep patterns can be trained. I also submit there is a vast difference in some people in how much they actually sleep a night as opposed to when the go to bed and get up. For me, the time difference is fifteen minutes at most. For DW, the difference is often much longer.

In the end I find specific sleep recommendations from pre-20th century folk nearly useless though general cautions again being a sluggard and oversleeping as well as being a good steward of our body still apply. The prevalence of modern lighting, economics, shift work and so forth make things different in many respects.


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## Edward (Sep 15, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> Major kudos to the pithy response!



You should make that 'major kudos to an inaccurate response'. Yankees apparently don't study history. As I noted above, he wasn't shot in the chest. Now, if you wanted to say that the doctors killed him, you might be able to make a case. But he died from pneumonia, which preys on folks with weakened immune systems, and lack of sleep has been medically shown to weaken the immune system. So before you all discount my post with a chuckle, you might want to look at the facts.


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## Edward (Sep 15, 2015)

tantely said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > rickclayfan said:
> ...



Didn't Beza say that he was ‘exhausted by labour’? Might not his chronic health problems been exacerbated by his lack of rest?


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## SolaScriptura (Sep 15, 2015)

When I was in seminary I remember Al Mohler saying something about sleeping 4-5 hours per night. Every night. I remember thinking that he looked like he needed more sleep (big bags under his eyes, etc).

I usually get between 6-7 hours per night. Some mornings I jump up after 5 and I'm ready to go, other days I feel drained after a full night. Maybe I have sleep apnea.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 15, 2015)

Let's give this topic a rest.


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