# Dr. Francis Schaeffer



## Bladestunner316 (Nov 3, 2005)

What do you PB'rs think of the Dr. and his L'abri ?

Blade


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## fredtgreco (Nov 3, 2005)

JohnV _is_ Schaeffer.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 3, 2005)

If I only had fruit as he does. He has been used of God. I have a deep appreciation for him. He kept the Gospel in the forefront of the Secular. He was effective in reaching it. Plus he wore some cool cloths.


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## Presbyrino (Nov 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> If I only had fruit as he does. He has been used of God. I have a deep appreciation for him. He kept the Gospel in the forefront of the Secular. He was effective in reaching it. Plus he wore some cool cloths.





I really appreciate the way he took apologetics "to the streets". I was blessed by his books: "The God Who is There", "Escape From Reason" , "He is there, He is Not Silent", "The Mark of a Christian", "True Spirituality". His love of the gospel & of the saints and seeing the lost reached always seemed, at least to me, come out in his books. 

I believe Van Til and Bahnsen were critical of him. I understand he doesn't have all his van-tillian, pressupostional ducks in order, but he was very helpful to me when I first started to learn about reformed apologetics and pressupositionalism.


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## LawrenceU (Nov 3, 2005)

Schaeffer is the man! He is one reason I am Reformed. He is one of my heroes. I have great respect for him. 

Does that leave any doubt?


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 3, 2005)

YES!!!!!

 jk


Why does JohnV not like him??


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 3, 2005)

I was kidding I love LawrenceU!!!!!


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 3, 2005)

LOL


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 3, 2005)

Like a brother


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## LawrenceU (Nov 4, 2005)

Phew.


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 4, 2005)

LOL


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## JohnV (Nov 4, 2005)

So that's why my ears were burning all last night. 

At one time Josh thought I *was* Dr. Schaeffer. Can you tell that's worn off? 

I don't think anyone can pay me a better compliment that to say that I am Dr. Schaeffer. But, alas, I am not. I'm with Lawrence, though. Schaeffer did a lot to shape my thinking. 

And as far as who's got whose ducks in a row, I think that Bahnsen and Van Til need to get their ducks straight in line behind Dr. Schaeffer's. 

( If that doesn't prove that I'm not Dr. Schaeffer, then I don't know what will. )

In all seriousness, though, Nathan, there is more in his books than meets the eye. For all that Dr. Schaeffer has done, it has not stopped the tide of poorly grounded thought from taking root and controlling the Christian world of reasoning. In our day, more than ever, there is a denial of the foundations of knowledge, things by which we weigh whether our own thoughts are correct or not. 

If you were working for the IRS, and an accountant's name came up for investigation as to whether he was crooked, you wouldn't ask him to audit himself, to judge his own work by his own standards. Of course a corrupt accountant will fudge his own audit as well. In the same way, we do not expect that fallen man's own presuppositions are the locus by which to judge his presuppositions. He must weigh his thoughts by things outside of him, immovable truths that do not rely upon him in any way. He must discern these to judge his own thinking. 

This was Dr. Schaeffer's own approach, as seen in He Is There And He Is Not Silent. He called all philosophy to account in three areas: the metaphysical necessity, the moral necessity, and the epistemological necessity. That is, these are brute facts, facts that are imposed upon everyone equally because they are part of God's revelation of Himself in Scripture and in creation. That is, we have God's Word in propositions, and we have the light of reason in creation, which can be worked out in propositon. Incontrovertible facts, therefore. This is quite apart from theory, for these facts are inescapable for all, whereas theory is non-binding. 

The most overwhelming of these is that God is, and that He is a (supremely _jv_) good God (from: Proof, The Intellect, and Faith.


[Edited on 11-4-2005 by JohnV]


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## Saiph (Nov 4, 2005)

"Death In The City" gives me great hope in evangelism. Awesome book.


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## Richard King (Nov 4, 2005)

I was dragged kicking and screaming (by a friend who is into such things as big words and deep thoughts) to watch the videos for "How Shall We Then Live" by Shaeffer. I thought a little man with the funny beard and knickers would at best be boring. As it turns out the things he said seem prophetic. He sure hit the nail on the head.


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## cupotea (Nov 4, 2005)

Nearly everything I currently think about evangelism and the relationship of the Church to the world I have learned from Dr. Schaeffer.


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 4, 2005)

Well I guess I better get reading 

blade


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## JohnV (Nov 4, 2005)

What books you have in mind, Nathan? 

It seems to me that different people would be better off starting at different books. For Schaeffer, it made sense to begin at The God Who is There and work outeward from there. But for some readers it would be better to start off with reading his analyses of the Twentieth Century church, and then try to work out his terms later, as they get to understand his concerns and treatments of the problems. 

A person who is lost in all the hubbub of modern thought, for example, might like to start with Escape From Reason, so that there is a context to the present milieu. Someone else might rather be concerned more with the state of the church at present, things such as Biblical Inerrancy or doctrinal certainty, and start with The Great Evangelical Disaster, get interested in his points, and then work to find out his approach more carefully in his previous works. 

Either way, what you have today is much more than what was available when I first started reading him. We now have the Puritan Board. We can discuss it, research it, cross-reference it, supplement it, critique it, analyze it, and start another EP thread over it; all by asking our questions here on the PB. What an advantage!


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## Presbyrino (Nov 4, 2005)

This will be one of my next purchases soon:
The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer (5 Vol. Set)

And here is a good one to start with:
The Francis A. Schaeffer Trilogy: The 3 Essential Books in 1 Volume/the God Who Is There/Escape from Reason/He Is There and He Is Not Silent


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 4, 2005)

I was thinking about "how then should we live". My best friend read it and loved it. You gave good advice JohnV thanks 

Blade


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## JohnV (Nov 4, 2005)

Nathan:

I thought of it afterwards that some might want to begin at the end, with How Should We Then Live. There is the video series as well as the book. Richard King referred to the video. But in addition there are taped lectures, especially his last one, with the same title. And it surely is a good place to start. 

In some ways he's like C. S. Lewis, in that he holds the terms "orthodox" and "evidential" as equivalent. If it isn't in accord with the evidences then it cannot be orthodox, and if it is not orthodox then it cannot be in accord with the evidences. So for both these men the notion that man can reason from himself, defining the facts for himself, is neither orthodox nor evidential. For them, as I understand, that kind of evidential methodology is about the same as standing upon one's own presuppositions as the basis for authority. But Schaeffer is much more pointed to that end, because he not only was particularly defending Christianity against unbelief, but he was defending Christianity from the many abuses inside the ranks. 

There were two main emphases to all his teaching: orthodoxy in doctrine, requiring an infallible Bible and due attention to the attributes of God in creation; and orthodoxy in community, requiring also an infallible Bible, and with due attention to the attributes of God exhibited in the personality of man in relationship with himself and with others, but especially with God Himself.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 4, 2005)

I have profited immensely from his essay on _Art and the Bible_.


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 5, 2005)

I wonder when Ill ever get to reading all this 

blade


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## Richard King (Nov 5, 2005)

If you go to this site and look at their bestselling DVD's you will find How Shall We Then Live.
http://www.apologeticsgroup.com/ecommerce/os/catalog/
It might be something you will enjoy.
I know that it has been shown to discussion groups in my area in segments and it is a real conversation starter.


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## JohnV (Nov 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Richard King_
> If you go to this site and look at their bestselling DVD's you will find How Shall We Then Live.
> http://www.apologeticsgroup.com/ecommerce/os/catalog/
> It might be something you will enjoy.
> I know that it has been shown to discussion groups in my area in segments and it is a real conversation starter.



There are more videos of Dr. Schaeffer, aren't there? I showed "How Then..." to my church years ago, and even invited a former L'Abri member, a minister in a church nearby, to speak to us. But I was under the impression that there were more videos available for just such purposes. 

I'll look around on the I-net.


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## Presbyrino (Nov 5, 2005)

John,

Do you know if there are any websites that have any audio of Dr. Schaeffer's lectures in mp3 format?


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## JohnV (Nov 5, 2005)

No, I don't Steve. I don't order anything on the I-net. I don't trust the technology, because it's always one step behind the opportunists, it seems. 

Years ago I ordered tapes on a regular basis. And I was at L'Abri Southboro back in '88, so I know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of tapes available. But whether they have been put in MP3, I don't know. 

I'll send an e-mail to Dick Keyes about this, and see what's available. He likely doesn't remember me, but it can't hurt to try. 

In the meantime, I found this:http://store.soundwordstore.com/l-abri.html


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## JohnV (Nov 5, 2005)

The:re are three Schaeffer films:

* How Should We Then Live? 
* Whatever Happened to the Human Race? (with Dr. Koop) 
* Reclaiming the World (with Edith Schaeffer)


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