# Ordo Salutis and 4 pointers



## Notthemama1984 (Mar 15, 2011)

In school one of the things I have noticed is that everyone at DTS laughs (not literally) at the idea that regeneration preceeds faith. These same profs then claim to be four pointers. 

So it seems to me that although they claim to be quasi-Calvinists, they have a different understanding of "I" than we do.

Is this common with 4 pointers?


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## Scott1 (Mar 16, 2011)

What's common is a misunderstanding of how the "five points," that is the doctrines of grace, are logically and necessarily biblically dependent on one another and related to one another.

Often, it begins with not understanding the "T" total depravity- that the fall comprehensively affected every aspect of man's being, mind, will, emotions, body such that man has the moral inability to seek God in a saving way.

Therefore, only a change of the constituent nature of a human being, a miracle done first by God causes a person to be free to savingly believe.

_"What is Reformed Theology?" by RC Sproul might be helpful as it reviews this in detail._
http://www.ligonier.org/store/what-is-reformed-theology-paperback/

Note also at the bottom of the resources page, a book _No Longer a 3 Point Calvinist_. I have not read that book, but it might be helpful along the same lines.


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## discipulo (Mar 16, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> In school one of the things I have noticed is that everyone at DTS laughs (not literally) at the idea that regeneration preceeds faith. These same profs then claim to be four pointers.
> 
> So it seems to me that although they claim to be quasi-Calvinists, they have a different understanding of "I" than we do.
> 
> Is this common with 4 pointers?



Boliver, when you mention they are 4 pointers I would imagine that meant the L in some form of Amyraldism, that is often the case with 4 pointers, Richard Baxter is a famous example.


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## Notthemama1984 (Mar 16, 2011)

Yes, they reject "L," but it also seems that they redefine the other letters as well.


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## discipulo (Mar 16, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Yes, they reject "L," but it also seems that they redefine the other letters as well.



I see. I guess, as it is often the case, it ends up being an entirely different flower


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## Notthemama1984 (Mar 16, 2011)

discipulo said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, they reject "L," but it also seems that they redefine the other letters as well.
> ...



Reminds me of a black widow rose. It is called a rose, but it is not that pretty and smells horrible.


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## Scott1 (Mar 16, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Yes, they reject "L," but it also seems that they redefine the other letters as well.


 
Often, but not always, it is difficulty with the "U" and "L" based on not understanding the "T," and not having the systematic theology of the doctrines of grace. That's why it is so incredibly powerful when one understands, really understands that God is indeed sovereign.


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