# Abraham Piper



## AnnaBanana (Jun 29, 2021)

Good Evening (or morning wherever you are in the world)

I tried searching for a thread on this, but didn’t come across one so I thought I’d start one up (if allowed).

Not sure how I missed this, but I’m guessing it’s because I stay away from the news for most of my day. Anyway, I was talking to a friend today and she was telling me about John Piper’s son, Abraham Piper, who is now a Tiktok sensation by making videos on there to discuss his deconstruction of religion- specially his loathing towards evangelical Christians. One article that I read, said that he- “calls out the hypocrisy and absurdity of evangelism.”
After watching these videos of him, and knowing his background, it made me question something: does the drill and practice approach towards children run them away from religion?

Granted, I am not a parent so I cannot speak from those shoes, BUT I have encountered numerous people (random and friends) who turned away from religion due to them not being able to have their own set views and experiences toward it when they were younger. It felt like they were told to memorize scripture (without being of age to fully understand and comprehend who God is) just because their parents directed them to do so. again, I am not a parent, so if I am offending anyone or feel like I know what I’m talking about, I apologize beforehand.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/12/us/abraham-piper-tiktok-exvangelical.amp.html?0p19G=2103


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## jw (Jun 29, 2021)

Those are just symptoms, not causes. Apostasy is rarely sudden, and usually -when it _seems_- it's truly only in its announcement, and O! how many love to announce it. Apostasy is typically incremental, and we must all watch over our souls, searching out such vestiges of self-righteousness, lusts, and hypocrisies that we find, being humbled thereby, taking them to the LORD and crying out to Him for repentance, forgiveness, and subsequent cleansing that He has promised to accompany with the confession of sin. You may find this sermon informative:









The Broken Decision-Making of King Saul the Apostate


Rev. Todd Ruddell | Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian




www.sermonaudio.com





As for the practicals mentioned above, it is every Christian parent's duty to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the LORD, which will include catechizing, scripture memorization, and daily family worship. None of these, however, should be mistaken for a successful turn-of-crank kind of Christian mill that turns out godly children. Rather, they are to point the children to Christ, with the LORD's blessing, in His due time, and at His good pleasure. We are the people of means (God's appointed ones), and He is the God of outcomes/results. The secret things belong to Him, but the things revealed are ours and our children's, namely to do all the words of His law.

The "deconstruction" thing going around amongst once professing Christian is overexposed and a bit faddish. This does not mean that a parent's carelessness, negligence, or miscarriage in some duty, or even -God forbid- abuse does not play a part, but a person's apostasy may never be laid at the feet of anyone other than their own heart's discontent.

P.S. - Outside of Jesus Christ, and the other two persons of the Godhead, none will ever -to use your words- _fully understand and comprehend who God is_.

Reactions: Like 7 | Edifying 1


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## VictorBravo (Jun 29, 2021)

AnnaBanana said:


> does the drill and practice approach towards children run them away from religion?


Those in rebellion will come up with any excuse.

Personally, I know many delightful young Christians who were raised with that approach.

Reactions: Like 9


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## Edward (Jun 29, 2021)

My grandmother (the devout daughter of a Baptist preacher) used to say "Preacher's children. Devil's grandchildren." 

Look at Francis Schaeffer; R.C. Sproul, Sr; Charles Stanley....


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## ZackF (Jun 29, 2021)

Edward said:


> My grandmother (the devout daughter of a Baptist preacher) used to say "Preacher's children. Devil's grandchildren."
> 
> Look at Francis Schaeffer; R.C. Sproul, Sr; Charles Stanley....


In the first two cases only one of the children are famous for trouble. The others have lead quiet lives.


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## Taylor (Jun 29, 2021)

Edward said:


> Charles Stanley...


Can anyone really be surprised with this one? I just listened to one of his "sermons" yesterday, as it was recommended to me on YouTube. Utter Christless garbage. Even by secular self-help standards, it’s just bad.

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## AnnaBanana (Jun 29, 2021)

Really good thoughts here. Thanks for responding to those above


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## Taylor (Jun 29, 2021)

AnnaBanana said:


> what is it about him that makes his sermons bad specially? Haven’t listen to him in a very long time.


It’s just self-help moralism. Ten steps to better finances. Eight principals for a happy life. Five things to remember when having a bad day at work. What makes it more offensive is the fact that the only time Christ is ever mentioned is when, at the end of his sermon, when he’s preached no Christ for half an hour, he’ll say (literally), “Oh, and by the way, if you don’t know Jesus, you need him for any of this to work, so pray this prayer.” That’s his gospel presentation.

Perhaps the sermon I watched isn’t indicative of his ministry as a whole. I surely hope not. But, either way, moralistic pastors and Christians beget less-than-stellar children a lot of the time, save for God’s restraining grace. The problem is only exacerbated when those children _themselves_ become pastors (hence Andy Stanley).


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## No one (Jun 29, 2021)

Taylor said:


> It’s just self-help moralism. Ten steps to better finances. Eight principals for a happy life. Five things to remember when having a bad day at work. What makes it more offensive is the fact that the only time Christ is ever mentioned is when, at the end of his sermon, when he’s preached no Christ for half an hour, he’ll say (literally), “Oh, and by the way, if you don’t know Jesus, you need him for any of this to work, so pray this prayer.” That’s his gospel presentation.
> 
> Perhaps the sermon I watched isn’t indicative of his ministry as a whole. I surely hope not. But, either way, moralistic pastors and Christians beget less-than-stellar children a lot of the time, save for God’s restraining grace. The problem is only exacerbated when those children _themselves_ become pastors (hence Andy Stanley).


Could you explain what you mean by moralistic pastors?


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## Edward (Jun 29, 2021)

ZackF said:


> In the first two cases only one of the children are famous for trouble. The others have lead quiet lives.


So you have no issue with quiet heretics or apostatizers ?


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## arapahoepark (Jun 29, 2021)

No one said:


> Could you explain what you mean by moralistic pastors?


Probably the fact that Christ becomes a mere add on, if at all. Its basically legalism for your best life now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## No one (Jun 29, 2021)

arapahoepark said:


> Probably the fact that Christ becomes a mere add on, if at all. Its basically legalism for your best life now.


Thankyou I appreciate it


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## Taylor (Jun 29, 2021)

No one said:


> Could you explain what you mean by moralistic pastors?


Trent beat me to it. Al Mohler defines moralism as “the belief that the Gospel can be reduced to improvements in behavior.” I would just add that “moralism” is not to be confused with _morality_, just as “Pietism” is not to be confused with _piety_. In both cases, we ought to strive for the latter, while rejecting the former.


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## ZackF (Jun 29, 2021)

Edward said:


> So you have no issue with quiet heretics or apostatizers ?


I wasnt aware that Shaffer’s daughters fell away from the faith. One married Dr. Ranald McCauley.


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## Pergamum (Jun 29, 2021)

I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.

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## Taylor (Jun 29, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.


There probably isn’t really a formula to be found—at least not one that accounts for all the data. The fact is that there are some rock solid parents who do everything right and their children still go astray, and there are derelict parents whose children turn out to be little Spurgeons (cf. Ecc. 8:14). The wrench in our gears is the sovereign grace of God.

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## Edward (Jun 29, 2021)

ZackF said:


> I wasnt aware that Shaffer’s daughters fell away from the faith. One married Dr. Ranald McCauley.


You might try Googling Frankie Schaeffer. Ex-Presbyterian Greek Orthodox atheist.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## FivePointSpurgeonist (Jun 29, 2021)

Edward said:


> My grandmother (the devout daughter of a Baptist preacher) used to say "Preacher's children. Devil's grandchildren."
> 
> Look at Francis Schaeffer; R.C. Sproul, Sr; Charles Stanley....


What happened with R. C's child? I only know of R. C. Jr


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## ZackF (Jun 29, 2021)

Edward said:


> You might try Googling Frankie Schaeffer. Ex-Presbyterian Greek Orthodox atheist.


I know about Frankie.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## ZackF (Jun 29, 2021)

With regards to the OP, Joshua's post was spot on. The self-congratulatory, often intellectually vacuous "deconstruction" going on is nothing new under the sun. Abraham Piper isn't the first petulant, apostate man-child. He won't be the last.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Jun 29, 2021)

Spurgeonite said:


> What happened with R. C's child? I only know of R. C. Jr



He just planted a church in Fort Wayne, Indiana (Sovereign Grace Fellowship). Started a new ministry called Shepherds College focusing on Character.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 29, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.


D.A. Carson has said the worst environment to raise a kid is with high spiritual pretentions and low spiritual performance. The best would be to raise one with low pretentions and high performance. I think there is some truth to that though different kids will view things very differently. I pray, if I ever have a wife, let alone a family, I can have a high enough spiritual performance to be a role model.

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## Edward (Jun 30, 2021)

Spurgeonite said:


> What happened with R. C's child? I only know of R. C. Jr


Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches. 

Not someone I'd sit under. 

Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 30, 2021)

arapahoepark said:


> D.A. Carson has said the worst environment to raise a kid is with high spiritual pretentions and low spiritual performance. The best would be to raise one with low pretentions and high performance. I think there is some truth to that though different kids will view things very differently. I pray, if I ever have a wife, let alone a family, I can have a high enough spiritual performance to be a role model.


Can you please explain what pretentions are in this context? Thanks!


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## Von (Jun 30, 2021)

Look at Samuels children:
_When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. Yet _*his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice.*
(1Sa 8:1-3)


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## Irenaeus (Jun 30, 2021)

Edward said:


> Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches.
> 
> Not someone I'd sit under.
> 
> Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.



At least one of his failures appears to have come from his theological aberrations and tendency toward legalism: he felt he needed to honor his late wife's memory by remaining celibate afterward. It was a noble gesture, but not something mandated by Scripture, and apparently not one in keeping with his own constitution. Few are called to be eunuchs for the kingdom, and it is better to marry than to burn.

I mention this because it was a personally applicable warning that I took to heart some years back as instructive of the dangers of turning extra-biblical suggestions into requirements.

Commenting on the larger issue: Abraham Piper is just a part of the larger "coming out" culture. We live in an Isaiah 5:20 society where evil is celebrated as good, and it's seen as fashionably edgy to take pot shots at the big bad oppressor of orthodox Christianity. Whether it's an NFL player coming out as gay, or famed actors and soccer players announcing a gender transition, or simply a conservative courtship guru or the son of a renowned Christian pastor... it's all the same thing. Taking the "risky" step of rejecting an increasingly small and disfavored minority religion for the favor of political and cultural institutions with vast financial and social power, trotting out the same tired tropes again and again.

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## kodos (Jun 30, 2021)

Edward said:


> Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches.
> 
> Not someone I'd sit under.
> 
> Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.



Yes. The audacity of this man starting a ministry based on _character_! He needs to sit in the pew and hear the Word of God, not teach it or preach it. Straight from the Wikipedia page which documents the issues with Jr. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Sproul_Jr.

*Church history and deposition from office:*
Sproul was first ordained in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). After a failed attempt to transfer to the Presbyterian Church in America,[15] he was ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (RPCGA) in 2000.​​In January 2006, Sproul and the Session of Saint Peter Presbyterian Church (SPPC), its governing body, were deposed from office by the RPCGA under charges including "abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner" against several families, alleged illegal use of the ARP's tax identification number, planting a church without authority, and practicing infant communion.[16][17] The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA, and the denomination granted their request. SPPC requested pastoral oversight from the CREC, which accepted the congregation as a full member in October 2007.[18] The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) examined the case and accepted Sproul as an ordained minister in good standing in 2006. In 2010 Sproul transferred his ordination to the denomination Covenant Presbyterian Church (CPC).[19] On March 27, 2019, Sproul announced, "I am a member in good standing at Pine Hills Church here in Fort Wayne. It is a part of the Federation of Evangelical Churches."[20] The FEC is an Anabaptist denomination of Amish Mennonite origin. July 2, 2019, Sproul became ordained through Logos Ministries of Florida and formed the business entity Dunamis Fellowship. February 14, 2021, Sproul planted his newest church, Sovereign Grace Fellowship in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Sproul announced April 3, 2021, he would launch the Shepherd’s College, August 30, 2021, as a pastors college for training and mentoring men nationally and internationally.​

*Personal moral failings:*
In August 2015, Sproul wrote in his personal blog that he had briefly visited the Ashley Madison website in 2014.[4] As a result, Ligonier Ministries suspended him until July 2016.[5] Sproul had addressed the recently announced Ashley Madison data breach in a July 22, 2015, blog entry that highlighted "the biblical truth that our sins will find us out", but without the acknowledgment made in August.[6]​...​On November 29, 2016, RC Sproul Jr was arrested in Fort Wayne, Indiana, for drunken driving with two of his minor children in the car. He posted a $5,000 bond and was free under a "monitored conditional release."[8][9] On June 2, 2017, Sproul filed a plea agreement in which he pled guilty to one felony count, 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. He was sentenced to a prison term of 1 year 183 days. Under the terms of the plea agreement his prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to 1 year supervised probation.[10]​

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## retroGRAD3 (Jun 30, 2021)

Regarding Abraham, this is apparently the second time he has "left the faith".


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## RamistThomist (Jun 30, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Regarding Abraham, this is apparently the second time he has "left the faith".



Exvangelicals do this on a regular basis. Jimmy Carter left the SBC about five different times.

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## Andres (Jun 30, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Those in rebellion will come up with any excuse.



Agreed. Imagine standing before a holy God with all your sins laid bare before Him and you say "well my dad made me memorize bible verses when I didnt want to so gimme a pass". I weep for Abraham Piper's soul.

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## arapahoepark (Jun 30, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Can you please explain what pretentions are in this context? Thanks!


It trends toward a legalistic mindset with little room for failure.

Per the OP: its also tragic that the stupid TikTok platform actually persuades people.

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## lynnie (Jun 30, 2021)

As Tim Keller says, rough paraphrase, when somebody tells him they are having doubts about the Christian faith, he says "who are you sleeping with". 

I've known a couple apostates and quite a few "backsliders" and the one common thing with all of them is sexual immorality. Abe Piper appears to be just one more. Tragic.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Jul 1, 2021)

kodos said:


> Yes. The audacity of this man starting a ministry based on _character_! He needs to sit in the pew and hear the Word of God, not teach it or preach it.



So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?


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## Stillwaters (Jul 1, 2021)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?


To be restored is to say they were once of pure doctrine and fell, yes? But when someone falls in a terribly bad way then how can one know there ever really existed a pure state to be restored to? Isn't this more like a "carnal christian" scenario of someone who likely never had true saving faith but was a concealer of unbelief? (If the latter then of course God could still save him. While there is breath there is hope).

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## No one (Jul 1, 2021)

Stillwaters said:


> To be restored is to say they were once of pure doctrine and fell, yes? But when someone falls in a terribly bad way then how can one know there ever really existed a pure state to be restored to? Isn't this more like a "carnal christian" scenario of someone who likely never had true saving faith but was a concealer of unbelief? (If the latter then of course God could still save him. While there is breath there is hope).


I am interested to know as well. What if the opposite is true and they did have a pure state at the start?

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## Stillwaters (Jul 1, 2021)

No one said:


> I am interested to know as well. What if the opposite is true and they did have a pure state at the start?


If that is the case then wouldn't the Biblical teachings about God chastising His own, and in worse circumstances God disciplining His own, and more severe then Church discipline, and then in the most severe cases even having His own excommunicated & turned over to Satan for a time be applicable?

All of salvation is monergistic, and certainly this includes the preservation & perseverance of the saints.

Though what evidence of true saving faith existed in the previous circumstances?

And how bad is the state of being "back-slidden" from a pure state if true?

 Whatever the case (and only God knows for certain) ==> the current state of their souls is terrifying and dreadful.

Just thinking about these things should cause us all to tremble!!! But then giving words to them in this thread should drive us to our knees, and even to our faces flat on the ground begging God to guide and keep us, and to save them.


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## No one (Jul 1, 2021)

Stillwaters said:


> If that is the case then wouldn't the Biblical teachings about God chastising His own, and in worse circumstances God disciplining His own, and more severe then Church discipline, and then in the most severe cases even having His own excommunicated & turned over to Satan for a time be applicable?
> 
> All of salvation is monergistic, and certainly this includes the preservation & perseverance of the saints.
> 
> ...


Informative and thankyou for your detailed response. Yes it is a scary thing. This very thing happened to my former best friend but God is gracious of course.

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## kodos (Jul 1, 2021)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?



Repeated scandalous moral failings such as Sproul Jr. has displayed violates the basic requirements for the office of elder - whether a teaching elder or ruling elder. He has not been one "blameless/above reproach" and "having a good report with them outside". That does not disqualify one from being a Christian, of course (provided that the sin is repented of). But it does disqualify one for ministry.

But at the end of the day - it is a presbytery that ordains and holds the credentials of men (1 Timothy 4:14) and so it must be a presbytery and not the individual man that determines whether he is suitable to be restored for office. This independent spirit on display is _especially _a dangerous one for men who have had serious moral failings in the past. But in today's climate - men like Driscoll, Sproul Jr., and Tchividjian can just set up shop whenever and wherever they wish.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Jul 2, 2021)

kodos said:


> But at the end of the day - it is a presbytery that ordains and holds the credentials of men (1 Timothy 4:14) and so it must be a presbytery and not the individual man that determines whether he is suitable to be restored for office.



I think this is key since its not that he may not have been reinstated but its that he went off course on his own. Very dangerous for somebody who was disqualified per scripture. Thanks for the update!

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## zoeenglishministry (Jul 2, 2021)

AnnaBanana said:


> does the drill and practice approach towards children run them away from religion?



Hi Anna,

I thought it might help to hear an "alternative" perspective: first, I can't imagine pastor Piper's heartache when he thinks of his son. Of the responses I've read here, no one has really focused on the reality of pain that our brother/father in the faith must be suffering daily because of Abraham's decisions. So before we insert any assertions, I think it wise to mourn with those who mourn and pray for pastor Piper and pray for Abraham.

Granted, this is PB and the theological weight of reprobation leads many to often dehumanize men and women who are still, Lord-willing, on their journey to faith and belief. So I also mourn the fact that so many have discounted Abraham with such resolve. Watching a few of his videos, I hear a lot of anger. I hear a lot of pain. And it makes me wonder why he so publicly came back to the faith only to walk away again? Such a decision can't be simple, nor easy. So there is clearly a story that we don't know -- and a story that isn't ours to know.

As such, I really don't think we should be using Abraham's story to answer the question, "does the drill/practice approach towards children run them away from religion?" That is, in my opinion, really not what we should be taking away from this whole story. We should walk away mourning and prayerful, humbled and even more committed to discipling our children with patience, love, care, wisdom, discernment, and a deep, deep, deep dependency on Christ.

Blessings.

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## Mrs. B-N (Jul 4, 2021)

I think saying you hate Christianity because your parents made you memorize scripture when you were little is akin to saying you hate your parents because they made you obey when you didn't want to. It's just foolishness. It's an excuse from a rebellious, unregenerate mind. I memorize scripture with my children because it's a privilege, because it's the words of Life, because God speaks to us through it and without it we cannot live.

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## Minh (Jul 5, 2021)

What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?



> For others, Mr. Piper’s pedigree is proof that ex-Christians should not be dismissed as people who were never really committed in the first place. “One of the common refrains is that these people were never Christian,” said Blake Chastain, who popularized the term “exvangelical” when he named his podcast in 2016. “But the people who leave over these issues are the people who took it seriously. They were the youth group kids who were on fire for God.”


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## Andrew35 (Jul 5, 2021)

Minh said:


> What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?


Heard this a lot, especially from apostates: my sincerity + enthusiasm = "real Christianity."

It's pretty specious, if you ask me. Or rather, I guess it follows of you don't believe in spiritual realities. In that case, what outside of group affiliation and sincerity could possible identify you with a religious system?

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## retroGRAD3 (Jul 5, 2021)

Minh said:


> What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?


The bible tells us they were never of us. That is the final word.

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## De Jager (Jul 5, 2021)

Judas sat under good preaching and teaching. He lacked a spirit wrought faith - as such, his own sinful nature choked out any growth.

It looks like the same is true for Abraham Piper.

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