# Is the Lord's Day necessarily the Sabbath?



## Myson (Oct 14, 2018)

Been doing some studying and finding myself in the Sabbatarian camp, but came across an interesting counter-argument that I haven't seen addressed. There are some who might argue that the Sabbath was still on Saturday, but that the Lord's Day was a separate day we ought to observe and does not carry the full weight of the 4th Commandment. Essentially, how do we know for certain that the Lord's Day was the replacement of the Sabbath, especially when some early Christians celebrated both? Was Christ instituting a New Day to worship him but not to rest? How do we know one way or the other?


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## Taylor (Oct 14, 2018)

Attached is an excerpt on this matter from John Frame's_ The Doctrine of the Christian Life_ (vol. 3 of_ A Theology of Lordship_), pp. 560-68.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 15, 2018)

See also:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-worship/the-lords-day/sabbath-a-day-to-keep-by-bishop-j-c-ryle/

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## Krak3n (Oct 15, 2018)

No, there are no arguments from Scripture alone that would support "the Lord's Day" from Revelation 1:10 as Sunday, or a replacement of the seventh day Sabbath.

To understand how different groups have understood what "the Lord's Day" means we can look to history and tradition, but these things should not hold your conscience captive.

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## Jake (Oct 15, 2018)

Fisher's Catechism on WSC Q. 59 is great: https://reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/documents/fisher/q059.html


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## Jake (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> No, there are no arguments from Scripture alone that would support "the Lord's Day" from Revelation 1:10 as Sunday, or a replacement of the seventh day Sabbath.
> 
> To understand how different groups have understood what "the Lord's Day" means we can look to history and tradition, but these things should not hold your conscience captive.



I assume your argument is in part that the doctrine of the Sabbath relies on good and necessary consequence, which is not in Chapter 1 of your confession (LBCF) like it is the WCF; however, I'll note that LBCF Chapter 22 sees no reason for difference in the doctrine of the Sabbath despite this:

7. It is the law of nature that in general a portion of time specified by God should be set apart for the worship of God. So by his Word, in a positive-moral and perpetual commandment that obligates everyone in every age, he has specifically appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy to him.28 From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the appointed day was the last day of the week. After the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week, which is called the Lord’s Day.29 This day is to be kept to the end of the age as the Christian Sabbath, since the observance of the last day of the week has been abolished.

28Exodus 20:8. 291 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10.

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## Scott Bushey (Oct 15, 2018)

https://www.apuritansmind.com/purit...d-and-new-testaments-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> See also:
> http://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-worship/the-lords-day/sabbath-a-day-to-keep-by-bishop-j-c-ryle/


Patrick,

Thanks for posting. A solid read thus far (Quoted from J. C. Ryle below):

" I want everyone to regard Sunday as the brightest, cheerfulest day of all the seven; and I tell everyone who finds such a Sunday as I advocate a wearisome day, that there is something sadly wrong in the state of his heart. I tell him plainly that if he cannot enjoy a “holy” Sunday, the fault is not in the day, but in his own soul."

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## Krak3n (Oct 15, 2018)

Jake said:


> I assume your argument is in part that the doctrine of the Sabbath relies on good and necessary consequence, which is not in Chapter 1 of your confession (LBCF) like it is the WCF; however, I'll note that LBCF Chapter 22 sees no reason for difference in the doctrine of the Sabbath despite this:
> 
> 7. It is the law of nature that in general a portion of time specified by God should be set apart for the worship of God. So by his Word, in a positive-moral and perpetual commandment that obligates everyone in every age, he has specifically appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy to him.28 From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the appointed day was the last day of the week. After the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week, which is called the Lord’s Day.29 This day is to be kept to the end of the age as the Christian Sabbath, since the observance of the last day of the week has been abolished.
> 
> 28Exodus 20:8. 291 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10.



That is what I was referring to by "tradition" in my post. I know it is a frustrating thing, as I too have come to understand the obligation of the 4th Commandment recently much like the OP.

Solid exegesis is found all along in the books about the Sabbath by Reformed authors until you get to the points about the day change. Here our standard for exegesis falls off just when the burden of proof become much heavier, because we are setting aside what has been written about the Sabbath.

Much time can be saved if the OP knows that he will need to look to history and tradition rather than Scripture to settle this matter.

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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Myson said:


> Been doing some studying and finding myself in the Sabbatarian camp, but came across an interesting counter-argument that I haven't seen addressed. There are some who might argue that the Sabbath was still on Saturday, but that the Lord's Day was a separate day we ought to observe and does not carry the full weight of the 4th Commandment. Essentially, how do we know for certain that the Lord's Day was the replacement of the Sabbath, especially when some early Christians celebrated both? Was Christ instituting a New Day to worship him but not to rest? How do we know one way or the other?


My understanding would be that the Sabbath itself never changed, but that the early Christians were moving their day to observe the worship of God to Sunday, the Lord's day itself.


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> Here our standard for exegesis falls off just when the burden of proof become much heavier, because we are setting aside what has been written about the Sabbath.
> 
> Much time can be saved if the OP knows that he will need to look to history and tradition rather than Scripture to settle this matter.


Or:
Rather the _Original _formula from Creation was specifically "work 6 rest 1" and was NOT specifically work Sun.-Fri. and rest Saturday.

Looking at History and Tradition "*Rather*" than scripture is dangerous. They should be viewed together with the Scripture being "supreme"...not "rathered".

The article linked by @Taylor Sexton is solid.

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## Tom Hart (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> My understanding would be that the Sabbath itself never changed, but that the early Christians were moving their day to observe the worship of God to Sunday, the Lord's day itself.



It's not entirely clear to me what you mean. Do you rest from your ordinary labours on Saturday?


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> It's not entirely clear to me what you mean. Do you rest from your ordinary labours on Saturday?


No, on Sunday, as that to me would be the "Sabbath Day" as a Christian.


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## Tom Hart (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> No, on Sunday, as that to me would be the "Sabbath Day" as a Christian.



I see. In your earlier post, when you mentioned the Sabbath Day never having changed, you were speaking of the one-day-in-seven pattern. Is that correct?


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I see. In your earlier post, when you mentioned the Sabbath Day never having changed, you were speaking of the one-day-in-seven pattern. Is that correct?


The actual Sabbath itself, the one given by God to israel is still the Saturday day, so the Sunday day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day of observing it now for the Christian.


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The actual Sabbath itself, the one given by God to israel is still the Saturday day, so the Sunday day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day of observing it now for the Christian.


David,

Your own confession takes no issue with calling the Lord's Day as a "Sabbath". The Sabbath PRE-dates Israel as a nation.

From Chapter 22 of the 1689:
8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
( Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13 )

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## Krak3n (Oct 15, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> Or:
> Rather the formula from Creation was "work 6 rest 1" and was NOT specifically work Sun.-Fri. and rest Saturday", which is from Scripture.
> 
> Looking at History and Tradition "*Rather*" than scripture is dangerous. They can be viewed together with the Scripture being "supreme"...not "rathered".
> ...



Actually the command was specific, Exodus 20:8-11 , as was the specific day that God had made holy. Genesis 2:3

If God sanctified Saturday then I cannot sanctify Wednesday so I can still collect wood on the Sabbath. ( Numbers 15:32 )


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> David,
> 
> Your own confession takes no issue with calling the Lord's Day as a "Sabbath". The Sabbath PRE-dates Israel as a nation.
> 
> ...


I know, but the technical truth of the scriptures is that the Sabbath Day Israel observed never has changed, but we do now celebrate the Lord's day.


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> Actually the command was specific, Exodus 20:8-11 , as was the specific day that God had made holy. Genesis 2:3
> 
> If God sanctified Saturday then I cannot sanctify Wednesday so I can still collect wood on the Sabbath. ( Numbers 15:32 )


You miss my point.

Also I read those verses and never once saw the word Saturday. I do not debate that the Jewish Sabbath was on Saturday (as we call it), I make the point that God's initial Sabbath formula was "work 6 days and rest on 7th" in the very beginning. Your charge that we cannot look to scripture to see the sabbath day changing is incorrect. Scripture and your confession (LBC) acknowledge your error. Our confessions were not written based on men's conviction of the teaching of history and tradition apart from scripture, but rather on their conviction of the teaching of Scripture and it's Supreme authority.

P.S. I would encourage you to interact with the Frame and Ryle documents linked above. Both are excellent and edifying. Also no one hear is advocating for you to sanctify the Sabbath on Wednesday (unless you were stranded with no calendar on a island, then if you simply follow the 1 in 7 formula you may risk honoring the Lord's Day on Wednesday, but I would not fault you for that my brother)

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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I know, but the technical truth of the scriptures is that the Sabbath Day Israel observed never has changed, but we do now celebrate the Lord's day.


Oh...so you believe your confession on this point is not "Technically True"?

For what it is worth, I think both the 1689LBC and the Westminster address this matter in a "technically true" way.

P.S. To be clear, there is a distinction to be made between the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Sabbath. However, Observing the Christian Sabbath fits perfectly withing scriptures calling to be obedient to the creation ordinance formula and the 4th commandment (in it's moral form).


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## Krak3n (Oct 15, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> You miss my point.
> 
> Also I read those verses and never once saw the word Saturday. I do not debate that the Jewish Sabbath was on Saturday (as we call it), I make the point that God's initial Sabbath formula was "work 6 days and rest on 7th" in the very beginning. Your charge that we cannot look to scripture to see the sabbath day changing is incorrect. Scripture and your confession (LBC) acknowledge your error. Our confessions were not written based on men's conviction of the teaching of history and tradition apart from scripture, but rather on their conviction of the teaching of Scripture and it's Supreme authority.
> 
> P.S. I would encourage you to interact with the Frame and Ryle documents linked above. Both are excellent and edifying.



I clearly don't follow you. Pointing to a pattern does not prove a change. It doesn't even prove a possibility of a change. It's an observation that we look to as a way to understand better what God has actually commanded.


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## Tom Hart (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> My understanding would be that the Sabbath itself never changed, but that the early Christians were moving their day to observe the worship of God to Sunday, the Lord's day itself.





Dachaser said:


> [I rest from my ordinary labours] on Sunday, as that to me would be the "Sabbath Day" as a Christian.





Dachaser said:


> The actual Sabbath itself, the one given by God to israel is still the Saturday day, so the Sunday day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day of observing it now for the Christian.





Dachaser said:


> [T]he technical truth of the scriptures is that the Sabbath Day Israel observed never has changed, but we do now celebrate the Lord's day.



I am frankly unable to make much sense of all this.

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## Scott Bushey (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I know, but the technical truth of the scriptures is that the Sabbath Day Israel observed never has changed, but we do now celebrate the Lord's day.



So, do you only acknowledge 9 moral commands or do you still keep the sabbath?


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> I clearly don't follow you. Pointing to a pattern does not prove a change. It doesn't even prove a possibility of a change. It's an observation that we look to as a way to understand better what God has actually commanded.


My point is MORALLY there was no change. Morally the formula is 1 in 7. The NT points to the Church acknowledging the Rest Day being what we call Sunday. I apologize if you do not follow me. For the sake of not getting to off topic, I would end with just encouraging you to wrestle with your confession and the scriptures listed in support.


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> I clearly don't follow you. Pointing to a pattern does not prove a change.



Pattern is key; 1:7 days

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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> https://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-worship/the-lords-day/a-brief-and-common-inquiry-into-understanding-the-perpetuity-and-change-of-the-sabbath-to-the-lord’s-day-as-presented-in-the-old-and-new-testaments-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/


Very Very thorough! The concluding points provide a nice summary. Below if from the article linked by @Scott Bushey


"I shall now summarize what has been said in conclusion to this brief, but necessary study of the 4th commandment.

1. The pre-fall Creation Ordinance of God is binding upon all men since it was given before creation and before the fall.

2. God rested on the seventh day as a pattern of work six days and rest one day which is binding for all men since God did not rest for Himself, but for Adam and his progeny.

3. All men are bound to imitate the Creator as much as is humanly possible.

4. All men should rest following the seventh day pattern which the Lord enacted from before the fall.

5. The Patriarchs knew and observed the Sabbath ordinance from the varied use of the “seven day week” and use of “sevens” seen through the book of Genesis.

6. Silence on observance of the Sabbath through Genesis and the lives of the Patriarchs does not negate the moral responsibility to follow the Law, as much as silence on sacrificing for sin negates the need for blood to atone for sin.

7. Natural light teaches us that a time of worship should be set aside for the created rational creatures of the earth to come together and praise the Creator.

8. The Law in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 is morally binding on all men. It is the Law of God as the perfect reflection of His nature and will and binds all rational creatures to perfect conformity in character and conduct.

9. The code of the Law is God’s revealed will for all men, not just the Jews and includes the moral code of the 4th commandment.

10. The moral Law has annexed to it some Jewish ceremonies which have been abrogated by Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

11. The Moral Law has not been abrogated by Jesus Christ in the New Testament but rather fulfilled.

12. The Old Testament bears much witness to the sanctifying of the moral Law and the Jewish Sabbath.

13. The New Testament bears much witness to the sanctifying of the moral Law and the Christian Sabbath or Lord’s Day based on the resurrection of Christ and the witness of His apostles.

14. Jesus Christ upheld the Sabbath Day.

15. Jesus Christ taught the fullness of the spirit of the Law compared to the letter of Law.

16. The shift from the Jewish Saturday Sabbath to the Resurrection Sabbath of Jesus Christ is evident through various New Testament texts.

17. The shift does not impose a reformulation of the moral Law, but simply a shift of the day, still adhering to the pattern of work six days and rest one day.

18. The Old Testament Jewish Sabbath remembers the Egyptian bondage and redemption which is not abrogated by Christ.

19. God’s work and rest from creating is paralleled to Christ’s work and rest of redemption.

20. The New Testament Christian Sabbath recalls the works of Christ and looks forward to the eternal Sabbath soon to be consummated in heaven.

21. The Christian Sabbath is morally binding on every believer.

22. Works of necessity, mercy and piety are to accomplished on this day.

23. Objections taken from New Testament passages dealing with the Jewish ceremonial Law do not negate the Lord’s Day."

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## hammondjones (Oct 15, 2018)

It has been helpful to me to reflect on the the 4th commandment in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, especially the different reasons annexed thereunto.

The principal of Sabbath, which was made for man, was appealed to in light of advances in redemptive history. So, there is at least an aspect of the Sabbath that is mutable - not the principal, though, of course. Obviously, the resurrection was the greatest advance in redemptive history. Do This and You Shall Live (sabbath at the end) replaced by Live and You Shall Do This (sabbath at the beginning).

Whether or not you think that the day could be change, well, at least I am convinced by the preponderance of evidence summarized by Grant above.

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## timfost (Oct 15, 2018)

Myson said:


> Been doing some studying and finding myself in the Sabbatarian camp, but came across an interesting counter-argument that I haven't seen addressed. There are some who might argue that the Sabbath was still on Saturday, but that the Lord's Day was a separate day we ought to observe and does not carry the full weight of the 4th Commandment. Essentially, how do we know for certain that the Lord's Day was the replacement of the Sabbath, especially when some early Christians celebrated both? Was Christ instituting a New Day to worship him but not to rest? How do we know one way or the other?



The Sabbath was always the Lord's day:

"...but the seventh *day* _is _the Sabbath *of the Lord* your God." (Ex. 20:10a)

"If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
_From_ doing your pleasure on *My holy day*,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The *holy day of the Lord* honorable..." (Is. 58:13a)

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## timfost (Oct 15, 2018)

I don't want to make too much of this point, but it is interesting that man's first full day after creation was God's seventh day after creating. In some ways, going back to the first day of the week is consistent with man's first experience with the Sabbath day prior to the fall.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I know, but the technical truth of the scriptures is that the Sabbath Day Israel observed never has changed, but we do now celebrate the Lord's day.


*Moderator Note*:

David,

We have been down this road before. Please explain yourself keeping the following in mind:
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/new-covenant-theology-vs-covenant-theology.94129/#post-1149030

See also:
https://purelypresbyterian.com/2018...-an-evaluation-of-romans-14-and-colossians-2/

At present you are on very shaky ground.

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## OPC'n (Oct 15, 2018)

Do we have proof that the Apostles continued to keep the Jewish Sabbath after Christ's resurrection? It seems to me that this would be a violation of the 4th Commandment when it states to labor for 6 days. In essence, there would have been 5 days of labor and 2 days of rest if the Apostles encouraged the new converts to do this.


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## Romans922 (Oct 15, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> Do we have proof that the Apostles continued to keep the Jewish Sabbath after Christ's resurrection? It seems to me that this would be a violation of the 4th Commandment when it states to labor for 6 days. In essence, there would have been 5 days of labor and 2 days of rest if the Apostles encouraged the new converts to do this.



Following the resurrection, Jesus and the apostles clearly no longer followed the Jewish Sabbath (7th day (saturday) Sabbath), but rather the Christian Sabbath (1st day, Lord's day, sunday). 

There's a good case to be m ade that every appearing of Christ after the resurrection Christ appeared on the 1st day of the week to the disciples. And Acts 20:7 the disciples met on the first day of the week, and 1 Cor. 16:1.

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## Jeri Tanner (Oct 15, 2018)

timfost said:


> The Sabbath was always the Lord's day:
> 
> "...but the seventh *day* _is _the Sabbath *of the Lord* your God." (Ex. 20:10a)
> 
> ...


Excellent!


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> Oh...so you believe your confession on this point is not "Technically True"?
> 
> For what it is worth, I think both the 1689LBC and the Westminster address this matter in a "technically true" way.
> 
> P.S. To be clear, there is a distinction to be made between the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Sabbath. However, Observing the Christian Sabbath fits perfectly withing scriptures calling to be obedient to the creation ordinance formula and the 4th commandment (in it's moral form).


I think that we are agreeing thay the Christian Sabbath is now changed to Sunday, the Lord's day, correct?


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> So, do you only acknowledge 9 moral commands or do you still keep the sabbath?


All 10 Commandments, its just that I see the Day to honor God as being Sunday , the Lord's day, not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath day.


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I think that we are agreeing thay the Christian Sabbath is now changed to Sunday, the Lord's day, correct?


I can't say yes, because based on your post on this thread, I am not entirely sure of your position. I agree, without exception to what the Westminster Standards (the best summary of scripture in my opinion) have to say on this issue.


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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> *Moderator Note*:
> 
> David,
> 
> ...


I fully agree with keeping the Day unto the Lord, as was established by God in the creation itself, but I do not see Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath day, as mine to honor, but Sunday as the Lord's day, Christian Sabbath time.

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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> I can't say yes, because based on your post on this thread, I am not entirely sure of your position. I agree, without exception to what the Westminster Standards (the best summary of scripture in my opinion) have to say on this issue.


The Lord's day, Sunday, is the Sabbath Day that we under the NC now observe would be my position. I just prefer to call it the Lord's day now...


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The Lord's day, Sunday, is the Sabbath Day that we under the NC now observe would be my position. I just prefer to call it the Lord's day now...


Yes that seems much clearer.


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## OPC'n (Oct 15, 2018)

Romans922 said:


> Following the resurrection, Jesus and the apostles clearly no longer followed the Jewish Sabbath (7th day (saturday) Sabbath), but rather the Christian Sabbath (1st day, Lord's day, sunday).
> 
> There's a good case to be m ade that every appearing of Christ after the resurrection Christ appeared on the 1st day of the week to the disciples. And Acts 20:7 the disciples met on the first day of the week, and 1 Cor. 16:1.



I know this. I was asking if there was proof that the Apostles continued to observe a Saturday Sabbath while observing the Lord's Day. People are saying there's proof. I want to see the proof.

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## Herald (Oct 15, 2018)

Krak3n said:


> No, there are no arguments from Scripture alone that would support "the Lord's Day" from Revelation 1:10 as Sunday, or a replacement of the seventh day Sabbath.
> 
> To understand how different groups have understood what "the Lord's Day" means we can look to history and tradition, but these things should not hold your conscience captive.


Joshua,

Jake quoted from the Baptist confession, which you subscribe to, stating that the first day of the week is the Lord's day, the Christian Sabbath. The framers of the 1689 LBCF used Rev. 1:10 to support LBCF 22.7. Do you take an exception to the confession in this area or are you in agreement?

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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> I know this. I was asking if there was proof that the Apostles continued to observe a Saturday Sabbath while observing the Lord's Day. People are saying there's proof. I want to see the proof.


They continued to meet in the temple for service until the clear break with Judaism later on in Acts..


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## OPC'n (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> They continued to meet in the temple for service until the clear break with Judaism later on in Acts..



Chapter and verse please so I don't have to work too hard finding it

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## Dachaser (Oct 15, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> Chapter and verse please so I don't have to work too hard finding it


Acts 2:46/Acts 5:42


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## Smeagol (Oct 15, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> I was asking if there was proof that the Apostles continued to observe a Saturday Sabbath while observing the Lord's Day.





OPC'n said:


> Chapter and verse please so I don't have to work too hard finding it


While I may not use the word "observe". Below are 2 examples where the Apostle Paul still engaged the Jews on the Sabbath.

*Acts 13:13-15 ESV
13*Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, *14*but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. *15*After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.”

So again, I am not saying they "kept" both for all time and in the same way. However, they did take advantage of the Jewish Sabbath to teach the Jews. Acts is definitely, in a few ways, a *TRANSITORY* time for the Saints. Also see:
*
Acts 17:1-3 ESV
1*Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. *2*And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, *3*explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”

P.S. If anything I could see them keeping it at times, in order to not unnecessarily hinder their outreach to the Jews, not as a matter of moral law but for the conscience of the Jews (another example would be the circumcision of Timothy in Acts 16:3). I hope that is helpful and answers your question. There is no NT evidence that supports the required keeping of the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) for Christians Post-Resurrection (in my opinion).

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## Scott Bushey (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> All 10 Commandments, its just that I see the Day to honor God as being Sunday , the Lord's day, not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath day.



How do you reconcile that with what you say here:

“The actual Sabbath itself, the one given by God to israel is still the Saturday day, so the Sunday day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day of observing it now for the Christian”

It would seem, if you fail to see the actual change of cycle, i.e 1:7, that if this is true, you are intentionally sinning according to the 4th commandment by not keeping the last day.


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## Myson (Oct 15, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> Do we have proof that the Apostles continued to keep the Jewish Sabbath after Christ's resurrection? It seems to me that this would be a violation of the 4th Commandment when it states to labor for 6 days. In essence, there would have been 5 days of labor and 2 days of rest if the Apostles encouraged the new converts to do this.


No idea on proof but I read it in the gospel coalition article about this historical book on the Lord's Day. I'm sure theres evidence in the book.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/a-brief-history-of-sunday/


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## OPC'n (Oct 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Acts 2:46/Acts 5:42



This says daily not every Sabbath.




Grant Jones said:


> While I may not use the word "observe". Below are 2 examples where the Apostle Paul still engaged the Jews on the Sabbath.
> 
> *[you]Acts 13:13-15 ESV[/you]
> 13*Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, *14*but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. *15*After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.”
> ...



Grant, I agree with you. It seems like they went to the synagogues in order to spread the Gospel not to keep the Jewish Sabbath.

So my point is this: I don't believe that the Apostles kept the Jewish Sabbath since there's no proof of that and the Christian Sabbath both and taught others to do that. I believe that would have come against the 4th Commandment when it says to work 6 days and rest one. There's no way the just got rid of the 4th Commandment either. The logical reasoning then would be that it was changed to Sunday.


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## De Jager (Oct 16, 2018)

In Acts 16:13, Paul went out of the city of Philippi to the river on the Sabbath, to find the place of prayer. However, this does not mean that he was observing the Jewish sabbath. From what I understand, he was probably attempting to engage with the Jews in that city, but being that there was so few there was no synagogue, so they went to the river where a few God-fearers would pray on the Sabbath day. And that is where they met Lydia. I would expect that Paul would often engage with the unconverted Jews on the Sabbath. What better day to do it?


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## Dachaser (Oct 16, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> How do you reconcile that with what you say here:
> 
> “The actual Sabbath itself, the one given by God to israel is still the Saturday day, so the Sunday day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day of observing it now for the Christian”
> 
> It would seem, if you fail to see the actual change of cycle, i.e 1:7, that if this is true, you are intentionally sinning according to the 4th commandment by not keeping the last day.


I see the Day to honor the Lord as for me being Sunday, the Lord's Day, as do not see the Church changing the Sabbath Day given to Israel , but as taking our new Sabbath day as now being Sunday.


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## Dachaser (Oct 16, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> This says daily not every Sabbath.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you that the earliest Christians still continued to meet in the temple on Saturday, as was their custom, but my contention is that the Church did indeed change the Day to worship and honor the Lord from Saturday to Sunday, but that was not changing the Sabbath given to israel, but to have that new Day as the new Christian Sabbath day.


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## Dachaser (Oct 16, 2018)

De Jager said:


> In Acts 16:13, Paul went out of the city of Philippi to the river on the Sabbath, to find the place of prayer. However, this does not mean that he was observing the Jewish sabbath. From what I understand, he was probably attempting to engage with the Jews in that city, but being that there was so few there was no synagogue, so they went to the river where a few God-fearers would pray on the Sabbath day. And that is where they met Lydia. I would expect that Paul would often engage with the unconverted Jews on the Sabbath. What better day to do it?


I think that Paul sought out the local synagogue each saturday as the means by which he was able to preach to the assembled Jews that Jesus was the risen Lord and Messiah , but that changed when there was the clear break between Judaism and Christianity. Paul did go to give the Gospel to the Jews first, but that changed when God moved him onto the gentiles in his ministry.


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## Scott Bushey (Oct 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I see the Day to honor the Lord as for me being Sunday, the Lord's Day, as do not see the Church changing the Sabbath Day given to Israel , but as taking our new Sabbath day as now being Sunday.




So then, since u see no positive command to change the 4th commandment to the first day of the week, you still remain required to then keep the last day sabbath? Do u or do u just reject the 4th command?

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## Taylor (Oct 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I see the Day to honor the Lord as for me being Sunday, the Lord's Day, as do not see the Church changing the Sabbath Day given to Israel , but as taking our new Sabbath day as now being Sunday.



I mean no disrespect, but I am very confused by this. It seems that you are saying in the same statement that Sunday is not the Sabbath, yet Sunday is the Sabbath.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 16, 2018)

David, I think folks are confused by your phrasing which seem to have some serious implications if taking at face value. The moral substance of the fourth commandment is one day in seven but the specific day (7 OT, 1st NT) was moral positive law and subject to change (the only honor greater than that establishing the 7th day based on God's creating is redemption in Christ which being arguably the greater work is great enough to change to the first day). If you are saying the Lord's day is a NT institution apart from the fourth commandment then it would seem you are saying the fourth commandment has expired with the seventh day sabbath. 


Dachaser said:


> I see the Day to honor the Lord as for me being Sunday, the Lord's Day, *as do not see the Church changing the Sabbath Day given to Israel , but as taking our new Sabbath day as now being Sunday.*

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## Dachaser (Oct 16, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> David, I think folks are confused by your phrasing which seem to have some serious implications if taking at face value. The moral substance of the fourth commandment is one day in seven but the specific day (7 OT, 1st NT) was moral positive law and subject to change (the only honor greater than that establishing the 7th day based on God's creating is redemption in Christ which being arguably the greater work is great enough to change to the first day). If you are saying the Lord's day is a NT institution apart from the fourth commandment then it would seem you are saying the fourth commandment has expired with the seventh day sabbath.


I am saying that the 4th Commandment is fulfilled and observed in the Christian Sabbath, which would be for us under the NC now Sunday, the Lord's Day. I do see the one day in 7, but do not see the OC Sabbath as being mine, Saturday, but Sunday as that Sabbath day now.


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## Dachaser (Oct 16, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I mean no disrespect, but I am very confused by this. It seems that you are saying in the same statement that Sunday is not the Sabbath, yet Sunday is the Sabbath.


I am just saying, poorly it would seem, that the Jewish OC Sabbath of Saturday is not binding upon us now under the NC, but that we have the Sabbath Day now of Sunday, which is also the Lord's Day.


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## Taylor (Oct 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I am just saying, poorly it would seem, that the Jewish OC Sabbath of Saturday is not binding upon us now under the NC, but that we have the Sabbath Day now of Sunday, which is also the Lord's Day.



Thanks for the clarification, brother.

Question: How is what you just said above materially different from saying that the Sabbath has simply been moved from Saturday to Sunday? If I may use an analogy, it seems that most here are saying, "1 + 1 = 2," and you are replying, "No, 1 + (.5 + .5) = 2." You are adding a biblical-theological step, but ending up in the same place, saying really the same thing (at least going by what you just said to me).

Am I understanding you correctly?

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## De Jager (Oct 16, 2018)

So let's sum up some basics (for my own benefit):

-pattern of work 6, rest 1 established at creation by God (Gen. 2)

-this pattern was reinforced in the giving of the moral law (Ex. 20)

-God expected the Israelites to observe the Sabbath prior to the giving of the moral law; this, along with the pattern of Gen. 2 leads us to believe that it is an eternal, unchanging principle for mankind

-Leviticus 23:3 teaches that the Sabbath was to be a day of rest and a holy convocation for the people of God

-Jesus said that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law until the end of the world

-Jesus calls himself the "Lord of the Sabbath" - and we are to conclude that he is still the Lord of the Sabbath

-God's people post-resurrection are clearly shown to be regularly assembling on the 1st day of the week. (for example: Acts 20). This leads us to believe that the day of convocation has switched from the last day of the week to the first day of the week.


Is this accurate?


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## Dachaser (Oct 18, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Thanks for the clarification, brother.
> 
> Question: How is what you just said above materially different from saying that the Sabbath has simply been moved from Saturday to Sunday? If I may use an analogy, it seems that most here are saying, "1 + 1 = 2," and you are replying, "No, 1 + (.5 + .5) = 2." You are adding a biblical-theological step, but ending up in the same place, saying really the same thing (at least going by what you just said to me).
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly?


I just think that the OT Sabbath Day of Saturday was not given to the Church in the NC to be our Day to observe, but that the Lord's Day of Sunday became the Day for us now to observe.


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## Dachaser (Oct 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> So let's sum up some basics (for my own benefit):
> 
> -pattern of work 6, rest 1 established at creation by God (Gen. 2)
> 
> ...


You have articulated my understanding quite well, as I just don't like to called Sunday the Sabbath Day, prefer the Lord's Day...


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## Tom Hart (Oct 18, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> You have articulated my understanding quite well, as I just don't like to called Sunday the Sabbath Day, prefer the Lord's Day...



It's called the Lord's Day, because that's what it is, and it's called the Sabbath, because that's what it is.


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## Smeagol (Oct 18, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I just think that the OT Sabbath Day of Saturday was not given to the Church in the NC to be our Day to observe, but that the Lord's Day of Sunday became the Day for us now to observe.


David,

I think a better way to look at it could be said in this way (I hope this helps):

The Sabbath has always been the Sabbath (from creation), so while the specific Day the Church observed this moral command changed, the sabbath as God originally gave it, morally, has NOT (the pattern of 1 in 7). This only should ADD joy to our obeying the Sabbath today, because we can see the invisible string tying it all the way back to when our Creator spoke us (mankind) into existence! Sure it picked up some "shadowy" things under Moses, but the invisible unbroken string has always existed for God's people in obeying the Sabbath from Genesis to TODAY. After all this is the MORAL LAW we are speaking about.

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## Smeagol (Oct 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> -God expected the Israelites to observe the Sabbath prior to the giving of the moral law;


Sounds mostly fine to me brother....I would only ask a follow-up question to the above wording.

Did not Adam have the Moral Law?......God has always expected his people to keep a Sabbath Rest (for the benefit of their very souls). The Moral Law by definition "Pre-Dates" the Ethnic/National Israelites. Do you see what I am getting at?


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## Dachaser (Oct 18, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> Sounds mostly fine to me brother....I would only ask a follow-up question to the above wording.
> 
> Did not Adam have the Moral Law?......God has always expected his people to keep a Sabbath Rest (for the benefit of their very souls). The Moral Law by definition "Pre-Dates" the Ethnic/National Israelites. Do you see what I am getting at?


The rest day was placed right within Creation itself, and the Jews honored it as being Saturday.


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## Dachaser (Oct 18, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> David,
> 
> I think a better way to look at it could be said in this way (I hope this helps):
> 
> The Sabbath has always been the Sabbath (from creation), so while the specific Day the Church observed this moral command changed, the sabbath as God originally gave it, morally, has NOT (the pattern of 1 in 7). This only should ADD joy to our obeying the Sabbath today, because we can see the invisible string tying it all the way back to when our Creator spoke us (mankind) into existence! Sure it picked up some "shadowy" things under Moses, but the invisible unbroken string has always existed for God's people in obeying the Sabbath from Genesis to TODAY. After all this is the MORAL LAW we are speaking about.


I think that you explained this very well, and I well continue to now see the Christian Sabbath as now Sunday.


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## timfost (Oct 18, 2018)

David,

I normally refer to Sunday as the Lord's Day and not the Sabbath. The word seems to be generally understood as Sunday while Sabbath still may seem to refer to Saturday in our society. (As an aside, it was probably like this in the early church, too.)

With that said, "Sabbath" means "rest." Is the Lord's Day the Christian day of _rest_? Preference for terminology aside, let's not make a distinction without a difference.


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## Dachaser (Oct 18, 2018)

timfost said:


> David,
> 
> I normally refer to Sunday as the Lord's Day and not the Sabbath. The word seems to be generally understood as Sunday while Sabbath still may seem to refer to Saturday in our society. (As an aside, it was probably like this in the early church, too.)
> 
> With that said, "Sabbath" means "rest." Is the Lord's Day the Christian day of _rest_? Preference for terminology aside, let's not make a distinction without a difference.


I think that when we call it either the Christian Sabbath, or the Lord's Day, its really the same thing.


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## De Jager (Oct 18, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> Sounds mostly fine to me brother....I would only ask a follow-up question to the above wording.
> 
> Did not Adam have the Moral Law?......God has always expected his people to keep a Sabbath Rest (for the benefit of their very souls). The Moral Law by definition "Pre-Dates" the Ethnic/National Israelites. Do you see what I am getting at?


That's what I am getting at. God expected the Israelites to observe the Sabbath even prior to the giving of the moral law (see Ex. 16), and this proves that it is not simply something that "came into existence" in Exodus 20 but that it transcends the Mosaic covenant and is an eternal, moral principle, just as the other 9 commandments. 

Just because the moral law wasn't written down until Exodua 20 doesn't mean that it didn't exist...I mean, Cain killing Abel was still sinful regardless of whether the moral law was written down.


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## Smeagol (Oct 18, 2018)

De Jager said:


> That's what I am getting at. God expected the Israelites to observe the Sabbath even prior to the giving of the moral law (see Ex. 16), and this proves that it is not simply something that "came into existence" in Exodus 20 but that it transcends the Mosaic covenant and is an eternal, moral principle, just as the other 9 commandments.
> 
> Just because the moral law wasn't written down until Exodua 20 doesn't mean that it didn't exist...I mean, Cain killing Abel was still sinful regardless of whether the moral law was written down.


I think we are in agreement..but to be clear..God's people had been given the Moral Law prior to Exodus 16 & 20. From Adam to Noah the people still new and were taught the moral law. Exodus 20 is simply the clearest picture of the Moral Law...but is had been taught to the people from the time of Adam.

From the Westminster:
*Chapter XIX*
*Of the Law of God*


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. *Besides this law, commonly called moral,* God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]


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## De Jager (Oct 18, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> I think we are in agreement..but to be clear..God's people had been given the Moral Law prior to Exodus 16 & 20. From Adam to Noah the people still new and were taught the moral law. Exodus 20 is simply the clearest picture of the Moral Law...but is had been taught to the people from the time of Adam.
> 
> From the Westminster:
> *Chapter XIX*
> ...



I agree with you. The law is eternal and unchanging as it is a reflection of God himself, who is eternal and unchanging.

This is what I was getting at when I talked about the law being "written down" in Exodus 20, yet in existence prior to that.

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