# Paid workers in the church



## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

Our church has paid nursery workers and paid worship team musicians, both groups are non congregants that don’t belong to the church. There are a couple workers I have briefly talked to, and I doubt they are Christians (yes, including the ones “worshipping” on stage). I can’t see how you get around the 4th commandment on this one. What level of concern would you have with this practice?

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## Edward (Oct 2, 2022)

Our Comptroller is Baptist. I don't know what the Organist is - he previously worked at a Catholic church in another city - but his wife and children are regularly in the pews. The guy playing the piano is a long time member, and the music director has been there a while as well. As to the folks occaisonally there on brass, strings or woodwinds, I'm pretty sure some are members and some aren't. I haven't seen the harpsicord or the harp in a good while. One of the assistant pastors sometimes plays the guitar. As far as the nursery goes, I'm pretty sure its always volunteers, the way they are continually begging for workers. 

I'm pretty sure that the question in the original post never pops up at the local Non-instrumental exclusive psalmody church up the road.


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## Polanus1561 (Oct 2, 2022)

I’m sorry, OP are you not a deacon per your sig? Don’t you have a voice in this?


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> I can’t see how you get around the 4th commandment on this one. What level of concern would you have with this practice?


You don't get around it. You never see this in churches that care about such things as the fourth commandment. 


Edward said:


> I'm pretty sure that the question in the original post never pops up at the local Non-instrumental exclusive psalmody church up the road.


My church is not EP (though' we sing maybe 75% psalms) and has four volunteer pianists; and none at all in the evening (yay).

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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

John Yap said:


> I’m sorry, OP are you not a deacon per your sig? Don’t you have a voice in this?


Our church Diaconate is only 6months old, and is just being established. But, I don’t see the elders asking our voice on this. They are the ones approving the budget that funds the workers.


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## Zach (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> Our church has paid nursery workers and paid worship team musicians, both groups are non congregants that don’t belong to the church. There are a couple workers I have briefly talked to, and I doubt they are Christians (yes, including the ones “worshipping” on stage). I can’t see how you get around the 4th commandment on this one. What level of concern would you have with this practice?


I may be among the few who don't have a problem, per se, with paying for accompaniment or nursery workers if necessary or able. Assuming (the debate would, of course, be for a different thread) that accompaniment is a legitimate help to our worship and that having a nursery to care for very small children who are not able to sit through the whole service is an acceptable way to help parents with small children worship the Lord or to train their older children to worship, then I suppose you can justify paying for that even though the vast majority of churches do not and rely on volunteers, which, except in cases of great need or great abundance is probably better.

That being said, I would have a serious concern with what you describe, especially having paid performers who may or may not be Christians. While I don't know about the PCA, it would be a violation of our Directory for Worship, which states, "Musical gifts are properly used in public worship to assist the congregation in its worship of God. They may not be used for the praise or applause of men. No person may take a special part in the musical service unless he is a professing Christian who adorns his profession with a godly walk, or who is a baptized covenant child whose conduct is appropriate to his status." That to me is far more troubling than paying them.

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## Jake (Oct 2, 2022)

We've had suggestions of hiring/paying help during service, but so far the only instance is for our accompanist (we have a single pianist). I know some of us elders and deacons have concerns about it, but thankfully our current (hired) pianist is interesting in joining the church and her family has immediately been involved.

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> Our church Diaconate is only 6months old, and is just being established. But, I don’t see the elders asking our voice on this. They are the ones approving the budget that funds the workers.


Has your PCA church taught on the fourth commandment? One can for sake of argument sort of argue the finer point of what is a recreation, but laboring and commerce partaking is the grossest sin of the commandment on the very face of the text of it (like idolatry, adultery, stealing, etc., in the others). It should be taken very seriously.

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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Has your PCA church taught on the fourth commandment?


No.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> No.


I suppose I should be shocked but that sure makes a lot of sense rather than if you said yes.


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## jwithnell (Oct 2, 2022)

That you have a "stage" says much.

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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

jwithnell said:


> That you have a "stage" says much.


Our church worships at a public school in their auditorium. We are generally having to move around and stand amongst the decor from the lastest play they are having. It’s a stage in the literal sense.

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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Edward said:


> Our Comptroller is Baptist. I don't know what the Organist is - he previously worked at a Catholic church in another city - but his wife and children are regularly in the pews. The guy playing the piano is a long time member, and the music director has been there a while as well. As to the folks occaisonally there on brass, strings or woodwinds, I'm pretty sure some are members and some aren't. I haven't seen the harpsicord or the harp in a good while. One of the assistant pastors sometimes plays the guitar. As far as the nursery goes, I'm pretty sure its always volunteers, the way they are continually begging for workers.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the question in the original post never pops up at the local Non-instrumental exclusive psalmody church up the road.


I'm sure it doesn't.

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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Yes, we pay people. We have an organist and a pianist. We also throw some shekels at our AV guy from time to time because he leads a small but important team back there... And over in the nursery we have one paid person overseeing things who is CPR trained and is responsible for cleaning (sterilizing) the room afterwards... and the rest are volunteers.

We also pay someone (my wife) to take care of the website. I think it looks pretty good. Better than most. 

Why spend money for consistent quality? That's because we're committed to being the premier Reformed voice in the northern greater Houston metro area.

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## Zach (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> Yes, we pay people. We have an organist and a pianist. We also throw some shekels at our AV guy from time to time. We have one paid person in the nursery who is CPR trained and is responsible for cleaning (sterilizing) the room afterwards... and the rest are volunteers.
> 
> But that's why we're amazing.


That sounds amazing!


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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> Yes, we pay people. We have an organist and a pianist. We also throw some shekels at our AV guy from time to time because he leads a small but important team back there... And over in the nursery we have one paid person overseeing things who is CPR trained and is responsible for cleaning (sterilizing) the room afterwards... and the rest are volunteers.
> 
> We also pay someone (my wife) to take care of the website. I think it looks pretty good. Better than most.
> 
> Why spend money for consistent quality? That's because we're committed to being the premier Reformed voice in the northern greater Houston metro area.


At our church, the paid nursery workers never join the congregation. In the sense that every week that are with the infants in the nursery, there is no rotation out that you would see with volunteers. Is this the case with your paid nursery worker? How do you reconcile that with the 4th commandment?


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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> At our church, the paid nursery workers never join the congregation. In the sense that every week that are with the infants in the nursery, there is no rotation out that you would see with volunteers. Is this the case with your paid nursery worker? How do you reconcile that with the 4th commandment?


Well, we don't have that situation. But if you only have one person to do it, then someone's gotta do it. I would try to institute a rotation, but if not able to do so, I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it. Someone needs to watch the babies, so we would unflinchingly see it as a work of necessity because they're facilitating the worship of the people of God.


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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> Someone needs to watch the babies


Why not the parents? These are our covenant children who are members of our church, not noisy hindrances that we need to be relieved of. Why do we need someone else to labor on our behalf and not participate in worship? Not trying to sound preachy, I’m not an elder so I’m not involved in the shepherding of parents. But I don’t know why we wouldn’t encourage parents to worship with their children.

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

I think often what we think is necessary is more akin to going out, digging a ditch, and pushing our ox into it. We create problems we think need extreme solutions that require exceptions to God's clear commands. My church does not staff a nursery any longer, but it was volunteer before that; parents take a child out to the nursery room if necessary. My previous church had a cry room built with glass looking onto the sanctuary; same principle. I know a nursery and other things are thought necessary to appeal to folks to come, but I've not seen it so for going on a fourth decade now. 


Justaguy said:


> Why not the parents? These are our covenant children who are members of our church, not noisy hindrances that we need to be relieved of. Why do we need someone else to labor on our behalf and not participate in worship? Not trying to sound preachy, I’m not an elder so I’m not involved in the shepherding of parents. But I don’t know why we wouldn’t encourage parents to worship with their children.

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## Miss Marple (Oct 2, 2022)

I'd opine that employees in worship service should be Christians for sure. The only "employee" we have leading in the worship is our pastor, or, at this time, pulpit supply.

I'd have parents rotate nursery duty before I paid an unbeliever to come in and watch the covenant kids during worship. . .

But we hire probably unbelieving folks to do non-worship stuff, like, haul garbage, install water heaters, do electrical work. Mon-Sat.

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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> Why not the parents? These are our covenant children who are members of our church, not noisy hindrances that we need to be relieved of. Why do we need someone else to labor on our behalf and not participate in worship? Not trying to sound preachy, I’m not an elder so I’m not involved in the shepherding of parents. But I don’t know why we wouldn’t encourage parents to worship with their children.


Good question. The answer depends upon what one is trying to accomplish in their service, and what posture one takes in regard to the broader world.

I love the PCA's BCO 47-3 when it says "The end of public worship is the glory of God. His people should engage in all its several parts with an eye single to His glory." And I think many in our camp do a full stop there with a guttural "Amen" rumbling in their throats. But that paragraph then continues with something a bit more scandalous to the minds of some (not scandalous in principal, but certainly in practice): "Pubic worship has as its aim the building of Christ's Church by the perfecting of the saints and the addition to its membership of such as are being saved - all to the glory of God." So my aim is to build church qualitatively AND quantitatively. That means what we do, and how we do it matters. Though we mock the notion of being "winsome," it actually matters how we come across. 

People who come to our church to visit (and we have many visitors) are largely coming from the larger evangelical world in which they have been *conditioned* to think and expect certain things regarding children... and to add to it, most parents are terrible at parenting their kids and have utterly failed to prepare them to sit still or pay attention to anything... and additionally, most parents (this excludes, of course, the shameless parents who think that dumping out a box of cereal on our pew so that their kids can wander to and fro grazing and talking and playing throughout the whole service, disrupting everyone around them) are mortified with embarrassment at having their kids act out in service. In short: if I *don't* provide a nursery I'm going to smack into their cultural assumptions that we aren't kid friendly, and they won't come back. I can't teach people who aren't there. 

WE do encourage things... but by not providing a nursery we're FORCING things that newcomers just simply aren't prepared to do. Plus sometimes parents need a break. And that's ok. I do not sit in judgment of a worn out parent. I've seen some of our poor moms in and out of the sanctuary with fussy teething babies so much that honestly, they're worn out. But hey, if Boss Man Daddy decrees it, they're gonna go in and out while he sits there enjoying the service. Or we can *offer* a nursery to be a blessing to worn out parents. Offer not force.

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## Edward (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> Yes, we pay people.


I'll bet even the preacher is paid. And he's not a member of the church.

Editing to add @NaphtaliPress since I bet the same applies to his church, as well.


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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> Good question. The answer depends upon what one is trying to accomplish in their service, and what posture one takes in regard to the broader world.
> 
> I love the PCA's BCO 47-3 when it says "The end of public worship is the glory of God. His people should engage in all its several parts with an eye single to His glory." And I think many in our camp do a full stop there with a guttural "Amen" rumbling in their throats. But that paragraph then continues with something a bit more scandalous to the minds of some (not scandalous in principal, but certainly in practice): "Pubic worship has as its aim the building of Christ's Church by the perfecting of the saints and the addition to its membership of such as are being saved - all to the glory of God." So my aim is to build church qualitatively AND quantitatively. That means what we do, and how we do it matters. Though we mock the notion of being "winsome," it actually matters how we come across.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I am left wondering how the tired parent, or the ill prepared visiting parent is any different than the hired nursery worker who is still the “stranger within our gates”. Why does one deserve the opportunity to rest and worship any more than the other?


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## iainduguid (Oct 2, 2022)

The Sabbath is a day for giving rest as well as receiving it. Why should busy Moms be the only ones who volunteer for nursery? In most of the churches I served, the pastors took turns in the nursery, along with most of the elders, which then made it easier to encourage others without kids of nursery age to share the load. That way the people who perhaps most needed to be in church to worship without distraction could be there regularly. Of course, we also worked hard to make the service a welcoming setting for families with kids as well, but the point that if we don't have a nursery we may be effectively telling unbelieving families (and poorly discipled Christian families) that they need to be sanctified before they can attend our church is well taken.

(By the way, in California we also had the reverse: families who came to us because a previous church would not permit them to have their kids in the service worshipping with them!)

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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> The Sabbath is a day for giving rest as well as receiving it. Why should busy Moms be the only ones who volunteer for nursery?


I agree, moms should not be the only ones to volunteer if there is a nursery. I would push back, if it were implied, that our rest in Christ is contingent on us not having our kids with us. Our spiritual rest is not inactivity, relaxation, or idleness. Wrestling with our kids during the service does not imply that we are any less restful in worship.

I can speak from experience with my own family. When we are in service it is not always quiet or without incident.


iainduguid said:


> In most of the churches I served, the pastors took turns in the nursery, along with most of the elders, which then made it easier to encourage others without kids of nursery age to share the load. That way the people who perhaps most needed to be in church to worship without distraction could be there regularly.


This is a great example to set for the flock.



iainduguid said:


> (By the way, in California we also had the reverse: families who came to us because a previous church would not permit them to have their kids in the service worshipping with them!)


These have got to be Baptist churches.


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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful response.
> 
> I am left wondering how the tired parent, or the ill prepared visiting parent is any different than the hired nursery worker who is still the “stranger within our gates”. Why does one deserve the opportunity to rest and worship any more than the other?


It's not about "deserving the opportunity to rest and worship" the nursery worker, like me (the pastor) rests elsewhere. Work done in support of the worship and ministry of the church is sanctified by providing worshippers with that opportunity - it IS a work of necessity.

And again - I value being a growing vibrant body enough that I want to ensure that people have the opportunity to drop off their child, so that I'm not placing an unnecessary hurdle before them.

Anyway - sounds like you need to relax and trust your elders.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

I determine because it is expected or it is a means of outreach to appeal to visitors that the church dinner after morning worship is desirable. But visitors may feel bad they didn't bring anything or maybe they expect food safety laws to be followed. Voila, cater out from the local bbq each week or hire the top chef who is a big draw; he's a Christian after all. It's desirable; therefore it is an act of necessity and lawful under the fourth commandment. In these questions, we begin with God's law and scripture not with our own or visitor or cultural expectations; otherwise, no surprise if we end up violating God's law in creating necessities that aren't.

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## Justaguy (Oct 2, 2022)

SolaScriptura said:


> It's not about "deserving the opportunity to rest and worship" the nursery worker, like me (the pastor) rests elsewhere.


Like where? If the workers are not worshipping with the body on the Lord’s Day, and not observing the Sabbath? Do you subscribe to the WCF view of the 4th commandment? I’m not talking about ministers, I said in the OP these are non congregants.



SolaScriptura said:


> Work done in support of the worship and ministry of the church is sanctified by providing - it IS a work of necessity.


How is it a necessity?


SolaScriptura said:


> And again - I value being a growing vibrant body enough that I want to ensure that people have the opportunity to drop off their child, so that I'm not placing an unnecessary hurdle before them.


You haven’t articulated that you are not just placing that hurdle on another.


SolaScriptura said:


> Anyway - sounds like you need to relax and trust your elders.



This sounds very Presbyterian of you…


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 2, 2022)

Edward said:


> I'll bet even the preacher is paid. And he's not a member of the church.
> 
> Editing to add @NaphtaliPress since I bet the same applies to his church, as well.


He is a member of the church but at the presbytery level, a contrivance I don't think could pass for necessary practice.  I see a principle in scripture that the minister of the gospel should be supported in his ministry by the church. I see the deacons that are not paid professional services but ministries of mercy. I don't see a principal for paying non ministerial professional staff to do this, that and the other thing on the Lord's Day.

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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

Justaguy said:


> Like where? If the workers are not worshipping with the body on the Lord’s Day, and not observing the Sabbath? Do you subscribe to the WCF view of the 4th commandment?
> 
> 
> How is it a necessity?
> ...


Are be addressed each of your questions in my post (#21). And as to your statement - I’m a great Presbyterian, one of the best!


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## Parakaleo (Oct 3, 2022)

A church paying people to work on the Lord's day is evil.

If you work to do something that is needful for *yourself*, that's necessity. No one pays themselves to see to their own needs.

If you work to do something that is needful for *others*, that's mercy. Expectation of payment for a work of mercy voids it as a work of mercy. Acceptation of payment for a work of mercy voids it as a work of mercy. 

Meeting other people's needs on the Lord's day is excellent. However, meeting their needs by hiring workers to do it on the Lord's day causes people to sin.

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## Andres (Oct 3, 2022)

Commerce, including ministry-related, on the Lord's Day violates the 4th commandment. The debate of nursery workers is for another thread, however if a congregation chooses to utilize them, they should be volunteer members from the congregation. Same with AV workers. If a congregation absolutely cannot find members to volunteer in various capacities to serve Christ's body, then that is symptomatic of another issue. I would be fine with paying someone to design a church website assuming they do not do that labor on the Lord's Day.

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## Andres (Oct 3, 2022)

hammondjones said:


> If you are going to have musicians, you should expect to pay them.


Again setting aside the argument for/against musicians, why should a church expect to pay them? Before my convictions to a cappella EP, I was in non-reformed church and then an OPC that each had musicians and none were ever paid.

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 3, 2022)

*Closed for Moderating.*

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## greenbaggins (Oct 3, 2022)

Thread is now re-opened.

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## Steve Curtis (Oct 3, 2022)

Parakaleo said:


> Acceptation of payment for a work of mercy voids it as a work of mercy.


To be clear, are you saying that doctors, nurses, etc. should not accept wages to staff, say, emergency rooms on the Lord's Day?

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## hammondjones (Oct 3, 2022)

Andres said:


> Again setting aside the argument for/against musicians, why should a church expect to pay them? Before my convictions to a cappella EP, I was in non-reformed church and then an OPC that each had musicians and none were ever paid.




Sorry, you caught me in that approx. 1 minute before I deleted my comment, as I didn't think I was able to express myself well. Sure, if you have a member that sits in front of the piano to play the tune, that is one thing. And there is no need, necessarily, to pay anyone. But, I was thinking more of those churches which have a full-time organist/music director or similar, as a full time job. So, I meant not merely having musicians, but having a position like that.


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## Parakaleo (Oct 4, 2022)

kainos01 said:


> To be clear, are you saying that doctors, nurses, etc. should not accept wages to staff, say, emergency rooms on the Lord's Day?



It's not up to me, but this is what the LORD has required by the Scriptures. It is a day where needs may be attended to and mercy may be extended, but not a day for commerce. I once heard of a surgeon who never billed anyone for procedures done on the Lord's day. That meant none of his staff received pay. The man who told me about this said that none of the staff ever complained.

A few thoughts here:

- If followers of Christ everywhere could agree on this issue, we could present a united witness to the world against unnecessary work and recreations on the Lord's day
- If the Lord blessed, things in this country could begin to change
- Businesses and places of recreation would be shut down on the Lord's day and the need for ER visits would plummet 
- There would be a vast, enormous corps of believers who would willingly volunteer their time a few Lord's days a year to care for people in need and attend to things that could not wait until the day after

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 4, 2022)

This should not be a new or strange idea. In 1595, Nicholas Bownd (True Doctrine of the Sabbath, p. 253) opined in the growing sabbath consciousness the puritans were fostering in England, that doctors should not charge for their time on the Lord's Day (while recouping costs of prescriptions, etc., attending what they performed, if I can paraphrase). I suspect this was not uncommon until the extensive modernization and medical industrial complex and of course falling influence of Christianity and Lord's Day consciousness.


Parakaleo said:


> It's not up to me, but this is what the LORD has required by the Scriptures. It is a day where needs may be attended to and mercy may be extended, but not a day for commerce. I once heard of a surgeon who never billed anyone for procedures done on the Lord's day. That meant none of his staff received pay. The man who told me about this said that none of the staff ever complained.
> 
> A few thoughts here:
> 
> ...

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