# Vineyard movement to begin ordaining women



## shackleton

I am sure most people on this board could care less or are not surprised but since this is one of the movements I was in a while back, during the roaring like lions, vomiting in the spirit etc. the Toronto blessing days, although by God's grace I never did any of these things. I was hoping now that Wimber was dead and people of the likes of J.P Moreland were joining its ranks it would begin to become a legitimate church but sadly that is not the case. Ironically, the "spirit" never seems to lead these people to the truth. 

Women in Ministry in the Vineyard, U.S.A.
Sam Storms
Feb 22, 2008

[In the most recent issue of the Journal of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (JBMW 12/2 [Fall 2007] 20-25) I wrote a brief article on the issue of women in ministry and leadership within the Vineyard, USA. Below is a slightly altered version of that article. I strongly encourage all to subscribe to this excellent periodical, published twice each year by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. You can do so by visiting their website at www.cbmw.org.] 

The Pentecostal and Charismatic movements have witnessed a progressive move during the course of the last century toward embracing and empowering women at all levels of spiritual authority and ministry (an insightful commentary on the history of this question is found in the article by R. M. Griffith and D. Roebuck, “Women, Role of” in The New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Stanley M. Burgess, Editor [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002], 1203-09). Today, Complementarianism is decidedly a minority view among those who believe in the continuation of all spiritual gifts in the life of the church.

Charisma magazine, the flagship publication of the Pentecostal-Charismatic world, has repeatedly defended Egalitarianism and actively promotes the ministries of several high profile women such as Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Marilyn Hickey, Gloria Copeland, Juanita Bynum, and Cindy Jacobs, just to mention a few. J. Lee Grady, Charisma’s Editor, has himself written a defense of Egalitarianism in a book with the intentionally inflammatory title, Ten Lies the Church Tells Women: How the Bible has been misused to keep women in spiritual bondage (Lake Mary, FL: Charisma, 2000, 220 pp.).

Those within the mainstream Word of Faith movement, as well as most advocates of the so-called “health and wealth gospel,” are typically vocal Egalitarians. It almost goes without saying that among the thousands of independent charismatic churches most would endorse the ordination of women to the role of senior pastor in the local church. 

However, there are a few exceptions, the most notable of which would be Sovereign Grace Ministries, under the capable leadership of C. J. Mahaney (who serves on the Board of CBMW). I should also mention New Frontiers and its leader, Terry Virgo, who have now planted more than 500 churches, primarily in the U.K. together with an increasing number in the U.S. (their churches are now found on five continents).

Grace Churches International, based in North Carolina, embraces more than 300 churches globally and is generally Complementarian in its perspective on the role of women in ministry (see H-SPHERE). The following statement is taken from their International Handbook:

“Grace Churches International recognizes that women may enjoy the privileges of ministry without the responsibilities of government. In light of this, Grace Churches International ordains men into local eldership and five-fold ministry offices listed in Ephesians 4:11.”

Women in the Vineyard

One will search in vain among official Vineyard documents prior to September 2006 for a statement articulating their beliefs on the role-relationship of male and female (the definitive history of the Vineyard is found in Bill Jackson’s book, The Quest for the Radical Middle: A History of the Vineyard [Cape Town, South Africa: Vineyard International Publishing, 1999], 419pp.). 

However, in the March/April 1994 issue of Vineyard Reflections, John Wimber, who gave leadership to the Vineyard until his death in 1997, wrote an extensive article entitled, “Liberating Women for Ministry and Leadership” (I want to thank Vineyard pastor, Paul Bradford, for bringing this article to my attention and for providing me with a copy of it). Although that title might suggest that Wimber was an Egalitarian, the substance of the article points in another direction. “I believe God has established a gender-based eldership of the church,” wrote Wimber. “I endorse the traditional (and what I consider the scriptural) view of a unique leadership role for men in marriage, family, and in the church.” Wimber proceeds to cite Ephesians 3:14-15 in pointing out that “this [view] ultimately reflects the hierarchy of the Trinity.”! 

His conclusion is clear and unequivocal: “Consequently, I personally do not favor ordaining women as elders in the local church,” a statement in support of which he refers the reader to the relevant portions in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Crossway). He argues that whereas both men and women can exercise most of the pastoral “functions” of an Elder, only men (and in Wimber’s opinion, only “ordained men”) can hold the office. Thus, says Wimber, “I encourage our women to participate in any ministry, except church governance.”

Others would point out that in spite of his Complementarian convictions, Wimber permitted at least two notable exceptions: both Jackie Pullinger (Hong Kong) and Ann Watson (England) served as the senior leaders of their respective congregations (although I should mention that Watson viewed her role as exceptional, given the premature death of her husband, and not a position to which women in ordinary circumstances should aspire).

The Vineyard USA Board of Directors officially adopted a statement of faith in 1994 that lacks any reference to the Egalitarian / Complementarian debate. In their Theological and Philosophical Statements, under the heading of “Our Leadership Personnel Requirements,” one finds an affirmation of “a strong, loving marriage in which both the husband and wife sense the call to minister” (the only Scriptural citation being Acts 18:26). Nothing more is said by way of explanation as to whether this “call to minister” might entail senior governmental or pastoral authority.

Under the leadership of Berten Waggoner, its National Director and President, The Vineyard, USA, thought it wise to clarify what until now had been a very nebulous position concerning the extent to which women might be empowered in all levels of spiritual authority. In personal e-mail correspondence with me, dated June 28, 2007, Waggoner stated that “due to the confusion among its churches concerning their position on women in leadership at a trans-local level, the leadership of the Vineyard found it necessary to make a much needed statement of clarification on this important issue.”

Whereas some would consider this a dramatic turn of events for the Vineyard, especially in view of Wimber’s personal stance on the subject, Waggoner and the Board disagree and regard it as simply the public acknowledgement of developments that have been gradually in the making for over a decade. In any case, September 21, 2006, will prove to be a historic moment in the history of this movement and ministry.

Although a number of Vineyard leaders had expressed their Egalitarian convictions (chief among whom was Princeton-educated theologian and pastor, Don Williams), the first indication to those outside the movement that change was on the horizon came in 2002 with the publication of Rich Nathan’s book, Who Is My Enemy? (Zondervan, 2002; for a response to several of Nathan’s arguments, see Wayne Grudem, Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth, Multnomah, 2004). Whereas Nathan did not claim to speak authoritatively on behalf of the Vineyard at large, it must be noted that he is a Board member of Vineyard USA and the Senior Pastor of one of the Vineyard’s largest congregations, the 6,000 plus member Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Columbus, Ohio. More than a few were caught off-guard by his explicit endorsement and defense of Egalitarianism in this volume. N! eedless to say, it was a sign of things to come.

The Letter of September 21, 2006

Whatever uncertainty existed to this point in time, everything changed with a document issued on September 21, 2006 (the entire transcript can be found at The Vineyard | A Community of Churches). The Vineyard USA Board of Directors sent a letter (by e-mail) to all pastors affirming what they call “the trans-local empowerment of women in leadership” (hereafter cited as Letter).The letter was authored by Bert Waggoner, but was sent with the unanimous approval of the national Board. 

Waggoner notes that five years earlier (2001) a request had been made by a Vineyard church that they be allowed to appoint a woman as senior pastor. At that time the Vineyard already “had several ordained women senior pastors who were co-senior pastors with their husbands and one woman senior pastor” (Letter; I’m assuming the latter is a reference to Jackie Pullinger).

Waggoner and the Board determined that the opportunity for open dialogue was important before any decision was made. Some thirteen papers, representing both sides of the debate, were posted on the Vineyard USA website and extensive discussion was undertaken among Regional Overseers and local church pastors.

According to Waggoner’s letter, “after the Regional Overseers discussed it at the Regional level and after considerable discussion at Board meetings, the Board decided to clarify what had been the de facto but unstated policy: the issue of senior pastor leadership would remain as a prerogative of the local church. Our position was that the local church was the instrument for ordination. Local churches had the freedom to decide who was to be ordained and the freedom to ordain them” (Letter).

This did not, however, address a number of unresolved issues, chief of which was what Waggoner refers to as “trans-local” leadership and relationships. For example, again citing Waggoner: 

“Could women speak at our regional and national leadership conferences? Could we encourage conferences that empowered women at any level of ministry? Could we write articles . . . on successful women pastors and preachers in the movement? Could women become APCL’s [Area Pastoral Care Leader] or lead Task Forces if we saw that they were gifted to do so? Could the national leadership speak positively concerning what women were doing in leadership? Were our educational systems free to train women to be pastors and national leaders? The bottom line question was, ‘Does the national leadership have the prerogative to empower women at all levels of ministry in the Vineyard?’” (Letter)

During the months of February through September of 2006, extensive discussion was engaged at all levels of leadership within the Vineyard, after which the Board “unanimously agreed” on the following position in regard to the trans-local ministry of women:

“In response to the message of the kingdom, the leadership of the Vineyard movement will encourage, train, and empower women at all levels of leadership both local and trans-local. The movement as a whole welcomes the participation of women in leadership in all areas of ministry” (Letter).

The Board also stated that “each local church retains the right to make its own decisions regarding ordination and appointment of senior pastors” (Letter). According to Waggoner, “this decision is not a dictate passed down from the national leadership. Pastors continue to be free to handle these issues according to their convictions within the context of their local churches. It is simply a description of how we will act toward women in leadership as we endeavor to lead the Vineyard movement in the U.S. at the national level” (Letter).

Waggoner is also careful to point out that the Board has “simply addressed the issue of whether to restrict someone from trans-local leadership positions in the Vineyard based on gender. We are not speaking to the questions of marital or family roles as this has never been a prominent concern in our movement. We welcome, respect, and value pastors in the Vineyard who have different positions on the issue of women’s roles in the church than we have taken” (Letter)

Unresolved Issues

Decisions such as this rarely, if ever, occur in a theological vacuum, and the Vineyard is no exception. In the critically important paragraph cited above, the phrase, “in response to the message of the kingdom,” is vitally important in understanding the conclusion to which Vineyard leadership ultimately came. On the one hand, the Vineyard is to be applauded for its emphasis on the Kingdom of God as the underlying theological principle that gives shape and focus to the movement. However, some in the movement are concerned that the Vineyard Board has embraced an over-realized eschatology that appeals to the consummation of the kingdom to justify what appears to be a disregard for the explicit biblical commands concerning the role of women in pastoral leadership. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment (and Waggoner insists it is not) remains to be seen. 

If there is any one predominant influence within the Vineyard it may well be William Webb’s book, Women, Slaves, and Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis (Downers Grove: IVP, 2001, 301 pp.), on the basis of which it is argued that the Scriptures put us on a theological trajectory that moves the church beyond the experience of the New Testament and its imperatives concerning the role relationship of men and women. Webb’s book, together with others of the same theological orientation, such as John Stackhouse (Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Christian Understanding of Gender [Baker Academic, 2005, 138 pp.]), indicate an increasing trend among Egalitarians in which the exegetical debate is conceded to Complementarians. They grant that the New Testament endorsed male headship but argue that it was an accommodation! to the culture of the day to facilitate gospel ministry, not a timeless principle designed to govern relationships in the present.

I should also point out that it does seem strange that, notwithstanding the official statement released by Waggoner and the Board, they do not consider the Vineyard to be an Egalitarian movement. Evidently the Board believes that by allowing local churches to set their own policy concerning senior leadership they have stopped short of officially making the Vineyard Egalitarian. Yet, it remains to be seen to what extent Complementarian pastors will be appointed to positions of leadership at the national level and granted a voice in the shaping of the Vineyard’s future. 

There is also the very real problem of what Complementarian pastors should do if a woman is placed in authority over them as Regional Overseers or ACPL’s by the national Board. Waggoner has made it clear that, whereas Complementarians are certainly welcome in the Vineyard, it will be difficult for pastors to remain who believe it is a violation of their conscience to serve under the leadership of women at the trans-local level. The question remains whether the letter of September 2006 will ultimately have the effect of not simply marginalizing Complementarian pastors but effectively forcing their withdrawal from membership in the Vineyard altogether. 

As of June, 2007, Waggoner indicated, with regret, that six churches had withdrawn from the movement. “This loss,” wrote Waggoner, “reflects that only a small minority take exception with our position to the extent of needing to dissociate from fellowship over the issue” (e-mail from Waggoner to Storms). Only time will tell of the long-term impact of this decision on the ministry and influence of the Vineyard, USA.

Sam


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## KMK

Interesting. This might cause a split in the movement. I have a great deal of respect for Storms and his humble but observant spirit is demonstrated when he writes...



> However, some in the movement are concerned that the Vineyard Board has embraced an over-realized eschatology that appeals to the consummation of the kingdom to justify what appears to be a disregard for the explicit biblical commands concerning the role of women in pastoral leadership. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment (and Waggoner insists it is not) remains to be seen.



And here...



> I should also point out that it does seem strange that, notwithstanding the official statement released by Waggoner and the Board, they do not consider the Vineyard to be an Egalitarian movement. Evidently the Board believes that by allowing local churches to set their own policy concerning senior leadership they have stopped short of officially making the Vineyard Egalitarian. Yet, it remains to be seen to what extent Complementarian pastors will be appointed to positions of leadership at the national level and granted a voice in the shaping of the Vineyard’s future.



It will be interesting what the 3rd Wave theologians do. Perhaps many of them will embrace the "Sovereign Grace" churches.


I have to say, though, that I do not agree with the implications of the OP that Vineyard churches are 'illegitimate'. And they should not be accused of embracing the Toronto Blessing. In fact, Wimber dismissed it. I have seen a great deal of fruit from the Vineyard churches around here. The preaching and teaching in their churches around here is better than a lot of the Saddleback model baptist churches.


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## FenderPriest

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it! Us SGer's got a shout out!  Anyhow, I'm interested to know how this will play how for Vineyard - hopefully those who leave will hold to the doctrines of grace, and can join Sovereign Grace over time.


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## Stephen

I am not surprised. The Vineyard and most Charismatic groups would not see an issue with the role of women. Pentecostals were ordaining women from the beginning of the movement.


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## shackleton

Is Sovereign Grace Ministries reformed Vineyard or reformed charismatic? There is a church in my area.


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## Poimen

Stephen said:


> I am not surprised. The Vineyard and most Charismatic groups would not see an issue with the role of women.



I am surprised _because_ as you said "Pentecostals were ordaining women from the beginning of the movement" so one would have thought they would do so from the beginning. 

Dr. B. Godfrey's (WSCAL) favorite: Amy Semple McPherson


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## MrMerlin777

Most Charismatic and Pentecostal movements that I'm familiar with have never had any qualms with ordaining women. Rock Church International is a good example.


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## FenderPriest

shackleton said:


> Is Sovereign Grace Ministries reformed Vineyard or reformed charismatic? There is a church in my area.



Sovereign Grace Ministries' tag line is that we're "Reformed with an appreciation for the Charismatic gifts". We didn't split from Vineyard if that's what you're asking.


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## Pilgrim

MrMerlin777 said:


> Most Charismatic and Pentecostal movements that I'm familiar with have never had any qualms with ordaining women. Rock Church International is a good example.



Since most of them came out of Methodist, Wesleyan or Holiness churches and have much in common with them doctrinally (the Vineyard, being of the "Third Wave, is an exception), this is not surprising. I do not know of any Wesleyan or Methodist denomination of any numerical significance in the USA that does not ordain women.


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## Pilgrim

Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.


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## KMK

Pilgrim said:


> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.



Presbyterians have already fought this battle and lost! Look at the PCUSA! It seems like they have more women pastors than men! (that is conjecture on my part)

I would like to point out that the Vineyard Movement is not 'pentacostal'. They are '3rd Wave' charismatics. They do not agree with the pentacostals that there must be a 'second blessing', nor do they agree that 'tongues-speaking' is a necessary sign of regeneration. In fact, it is my understanding that Vineyard does not teach even teach that a pastor must speak in tongues! (Although, in reality, I would imagine most/all of them do)

Just because '1st Wave'/Azusa St. pentacostals have always ordained women has little bearing on Vineyard. As the article stated, John Wimber, Vineyard's founder, believed that the Bible specifically taught male headship in the church. In fact, Sam Storms article in the OP points out that Vineyard still does not consider itself 'egalitarian'. They simply believe that it is up to the local church to determine who their leaders are. (I know, it sounds like a cop-out to me too)


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## Presbyterian Deacon

*On the ordination of women*



Pilgrim said:


> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.




R. L. Dabney once wrote:


> The fantastic suggestion of yesterday, entertained only by a few fanatics, and then mentioned only by the sober to be ridiculed, is today the audacious reform, and will be tomorrow the recognized usage.



The longer I live, the more convinced I am that Dabney was *truly* a prophet!


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## KMK

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R. L. Dabney once wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> The fantastic suggestion of yesterday, entertained only by a few fanatics, and then mentioned only by the sober to be ridiculed, is today the audacious reform, and will be tomorrow the recognized usage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The longer I live, the more convinced I am that Dabney was *truly* a prophet!
Click to expand...


So much for evolution!


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## Pilgrim

KMK said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presbyterians have already fought this battle and lost! Look at the PCUSA! It seems like they have more women pastors than men! (that is conjecture on my part)
> 
> I would like to point out that the Vineyard Movement is not 'pentacostal'. They are '3rd Wave' charismatics. They do not agree with the pentacostals that there must be a 'second blessing', nor do they agree that 'tongues-speaking' is a necessary sign of regeneration. In fact, it is my understanding that Vineyard does not teach even teach that a pastor must speak in tongues! (Although, in reality, I would imagine most/all of them do)
> 
> Just because '1st Wave'/Azusa St. pentacostals have always ordained women has little bearing on Vineyard. As the article stated, John Wimber, Vineyard's founder, believed that the Bible specifically taught male headship in the church. In fact, Sam Storms article in the OP points out that Vineyard still does not consider itself 'egalitarian'. They simply believe that it is up to the local church to determine who their leaders are. (I know, it sounds like a cop-out to me too)
Click to expand...


Right. That was my point earlier. The Vineyard did not come out of the holiness movement as did the first wave of pentecostalism nor largely liberal denominations as did the 2nd wave (aka charismatics) in the 50's and 60's. A Vineyard pastor in my area was a former PCA pastor. My admittedly limited understanding also is that with the Vineyard overall there is a lot of variety from church to church.


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## DMcFadden

John Wimber was once a part of the Calvary Chapel movement. He and Chuck Smith separated over the role of "signs and wonders" to accredit ministry. I spoke with a fellow who was in the room when Wimber stood and announced his plan to leave the movement.

I am not surprised by the move by the Vineyard. As their pastors have begun to become theologically educated, they have been attending broad evangelical colleges and seminaries. As long ago as the late 80's it was socially unacceptable to teach complementarianism (or even mention it as a legitimate option) at places like Fuller. Here in California, you would be hardpressed to graduate from either Fuller or Azusa Pacific's seminary without bowing the knee to egalitarianism.


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## KMK

DMcFadden said:


> John Wimber was once a part of the Calvary Chapel movement. He and Chuck Smith separated over the role of "signs and wonders" to accredit ministry. I spoke with a fellow who was in the room when Wimber stood and announced his plan to leave the movement.
> 
> I am not surprised by the move by the Vineyard. As their pastors have begun to become theologically educated, they have been attending broad evangelical colleges and seminaries. As long ago as the late 80's it was socially unacceptable to teach complementarianism (or even mention it as a legitimate option) at places like Fuller. Here in California, you would be hardpressed to graduate from either Fuller or Azusa Pacific's seminary without bowing the knee to egalitarianism.



Are you saying the fact that Vineyard pastors became more and more California seminary educated that led to this? Wow! Who could have imagined a day when higher education would actually be a detriment to the church. (That is not to say that there aren't some great 'smaller' seminaries in CA)

Would you say the same goes for Dispensationalism in CA seminaries?


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## KMK

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R. L. Dabney once wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> The fantastic suggestion of yesterday, entertained only by a few fanatics, and then mentioned only by the sober to be ridiculed, is today the audacious reform, and will be tomorrow the recognized usage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The longer I live, the more convinced I am that Dabney was *truly* a prophet!
Click to expand...


Along those same lines, here is a quote from William B. Sprague's "Danger of Being Over Wise"



> And in addition to these particular facts, there is another of a more general nature, which awakens my apprehension not less than those which I have already stated — I refer to the gradual and silent change which is evinced by the manner in which this subject is treated in the ordinary intercourse of life. Men who, a year ago, felt nothing but shuddering when it was introduced, have come now to speak of it with timid caution, as if they were speaking on an unsettled question, upon which it were wise not fully to commit themselves; while some of them actually half adopt the principle, and others show that scarcely any of their former scruples now remain. And wherefore is this change? It is because the subject has gradually become familiar to them; and while the current in favor of this innovation has been imperceptibly becoming stronger, no effort has been made to resist it; and even ministers of the gospel have been silent, because they have apprehended no serious danger, or possibly because they have feared to sound the alarm, lest it should subject them to the charge of being hostile to one of the best of causes; and hence these individuals, by a process which they themselves can hardly analyze, and for reasons of which they can give little account, have been brought to their present posture of indecision at least, if not of actually favoring the views which, not long ago, they regarded with horror.



This quote is in regards to the superimposition of grape juice over wine in the Lord's Supper but the idea is the same.


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## DMcFadden

KMK said:


> Are you saying the fact that Vineyard pastors became more and more California seminary educated that led to this? Wow! Who could have imagined a day when higher education would actually be a detriment to the church. (That is not to say that there aren't some great 'smaller' seminaries in CA)
> 
> Would you say the same goes for Dispensationalism in CA seminaries?



Actually, Ken, not exactly. Most evangelical seminaries tilt in the egalitarian direction, not merely the California ones. Fuller just takes it a little bit further than some others. 

Bill Mounce (of the Greek textbook fame) tells the story recounted in one of Grudem's books of the time when he was called on the carpet by the Dean at Fuller (back in the late 80s!!!) for presenting the complementarian view in his class on the Pastoral Epistles. 

I know a recent Fuller grad (female) who promptly withdrew from her evangelical denomination's ordination council because one of the others on the committee held a complementarian view. She was shocked that the committee members did not discipline or at least rebuke the member who disagreed with ordaining women for reasons of conscience. Ironically, the fellow is a very friendly and caring pastor who holds his view with gentleness. He was happy to treat the female colleague with respect. He simply disagreed with voting for the ordination of a candidate because she was a woman. In any case, when the chair defended the right of the fellow to interpret 1 Tim as prohibiting the ordination of women, she was quite upset.


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## Pilgrim

KMK said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> John Wimber was once a part of the Calvary Chapel movement. He and Chuck Smith separated over the role of "signs and wonders" to accredit ministry. I spoke with a fellow who was in the room when Wimber stood and announced his plan to leave the movement.
> 
> I am not surprised by the move by the Vineyard. As their pastors have begun to become theologically educated, they have been attending broad evangelical colleges and seminaries. As long ago as the late 80's it was socially unacceptable to teach complementarianism (or even mention it as a legitimate option) at places like Fuller. Here in California, you would be hardpressed to graduate from either Fuller or Azusa Pacific's seminary without bowing the knee to egalitarianism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying the fact that Vineyard pastors became more and more California seminary educated that led to this? Wow! Who could have imagined a day when higher education would actually be a detriment to the church. (That is not to say that there aren't some great 'smaller' seminaries in CA)
> 
> Would you say the same goes for Dispensationalism in CA seminaries?
Click to expand...


Higher education has often been a detriment to the church and is probably the major cause of the mainline denominations being given over to liberalism. That's not to say that it isn't useful, but it is only as useful as what is taught there.


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## shackleton

I heard a sermon by a local United Methodist pastor who was recalling his days in seminary and stated that when writing papers if he referred to God as masculine in any way he would be down graded for it.  

At his church of several thousand his is the only male pastor, 1 of about 5.


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## DMcFadden

shackleton said:


> I heard a sermon by a local United Methodist pastor who was recalling his days in seminary and stated that when writing papers if he referred to God as masculine in any way he would be down graded for it.
> 
> At his church of several thousand his is the only male pastor, 1 of about 5.



In some broadly evangelical schools (at least one I know about), the academic rules prohibit turning in any papers without using inclusive language.


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## DMcFadden

Pilgrim said:


> Higher education has often been a detriment to the church and is probably the major cause of the mainline denominations being given over to liberalism. That's not to say that it isn't useful, but it is only as useful as what is taught there.



Amen!


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## DMcFadden

KMK said:


> Are you saying the fact that Vineyard pastors became more and more California seminary educated that led to this? Wow! Who could have imagined a day when higher education would actually be a detriment to the church. (That is not to say that there aren't some great 'smaller' seminaries in CA)



Ken, 

Having read your posts for more than 6 months and having enjoyed lunch with you, you have nothing to apologize for academically. Your current functional knowledge of theology (especially the theologically deep and rich mother lodes of Puritan thought you have read) put you WAY ahead of most of the 500 or so ordinands I have interviewed over the last 27 years. Do you know as much as some of the folks on this board? Maybe not. But, augment your studies with iTunes U (both RTS and Covenant courses are GREAT!). You are already doing super.


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## KMK

DMcFadden said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying the fact that Vineyard pastors became more and more California seminary educated that led to this? Wow! Who could have imagined a day when higher education would actually be a detriment to the church. (That is not to say that there aren't some great 'smaller' seminaries in CA)
> 
> Would you say the same goes for Dispensationalism in CA seminaries?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Ken, not exactly. Most evangelical seminaries tilt in the egalitarian direction, not merely the California ones. Fuller just takes it a little bit further than some others.
> 
> Bill Mounce (of the Greek textbook fame) tells the story recounted in one of Grudem's books of the time when he was called on the carpet by the Dean at Fuller (back in the late 80s!!!) for presenting the *complementarian* view in his class on the Pastoral Epistles.
> 
> I know a recent Fuller grad (female) who promptly withdrew from her evangelical denomination's ordination council because one of the others on the committee held a complementarian view. She was shocked that the committee members did not discipline or at least rebuke the member who disagreed with ordaining women for reasons of conscience. Ironically, the fellow is a very friendly and caring pastor who holds his view with gentleness. He was happy to treat the female colleague with respect. He simply disagreed with voting for the ordination of a candidate because she was a woman. In any case, when the chair defended the right of the fellow to interpret 1 Tim as prohibiting the ordination of women, she was quite upset.
Click to expand...


You have mentioned 'complemenarianism' before but I forgot what resources you mentioned. Can you provide some?


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## DMcFadden

Try anything by Grudem.

If you go here (CBMW » Online Books), you can download 13 full books in PDF form for FREE! This includes books by Grudem, Piper, Rainey, Kassian, Hove, McCulley, and DeMoss.

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has carried the load in this area for some time. They take quite a bit of heat from egalitarian evangelicals, but with smart guys like Grudem and Piper on their side, it is difficult to dismiss them.

Their board of directors includes the following:

*J. Ligon Duncan III*, Ph.D., Chairman, Senior Pastor, First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, MS 
*
C. J. Mahaney*, Vice-Chairman, President Sovereign Grace Ministries, Gaithersburg, MD 

*Rebecca Jones*, B.A., Secretary, Homemaker, Author, Editor, Escondido, CA 

*Donald Balasa*, J.D., Treasurer, Executive Director and Legal Counsel, American Association of Medical Assistants 
Chicago, Illinois 

*Wayne A. Grudem*, Ph.D., Research Professor of Bible and Theology, Phoenix Seminary, Scottsdale, AZ 

*H. Wayne House*, Th.D., J.D., Professor of Law, Trinity Law School, Trinity International University, Santa Ana, CA
Distinguished Professor of Biblical Studies and Apologetics, Faith Seminary, Tacoma, WA


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

KMK said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the complementarians with a bleaker outlook are saying they won't be surprised if the PCA fights this battle within a generation due to the "evangelical feminist" influence at some of the seminaries and churches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presbyterians have already fought this battle and lost! Look at the PCUSA! It seems like they have more women pastors than men! (that is conjecture on my part)
Click to expand...


As someone who has left the PC (USA) recently that is not far from the truth.


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