# Should Christians ever be in competive fighting?



## Puritanhead (May 6, 2007)

Should Christians ever be involved in competitive fighting, whether under auspices of martial arts or boxing matches?

I have Christian friends that have been in boxing and tough-man competitions. I have taken Brazillian Jujitsu, Muay Thai Kickboxing, and Karate in time's past, and hope to renew my classes for the exercise benefit, the sport, and to sharpen my knowledge for self-defense purposes. More recently, I did some amateur sparring (i.e., boxing), but nothing in competitive regulated environment.

I was considering practicing for a tough-man type boxing competition next year with my friends. My parents advise against it, citing risk of head injury, and brain damage as a compelling reason to not set foot in a ring. Granted, there would be safety gear and protective head gear utilized. I have taken shots in nose that drew blood in time's past.

So, what think ye? Should this stuff be off-limits? Or is it just good clean fun?


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## ReformedWretch (May 6, 2007)

I don't see what's wrong with it. So long as your goal isn't to hurt or mame someone it's simply a sporting competition.


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## Richard King (May 6, 2007)

I agree with Adam.


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## Scot (May 6, 2007)

I've pondered that question myself. I would never be going into it to hurt or mame someone either but the fact is, after getting hit a couple of times would you still be thinking at that moment of it only being a competition or would your attitude become "I'm going to kill that..." ?


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## ReformedWretch (May 6, 2007)

lol, sure but that was my attitude after being hit in high school football but I never purposfully tried to hurt someone let alone kill them. I've seen many mixed martial artists stay focused giving high fives between rounds and nearly all of them hug and congratulate one another after their fights.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 6, 2007)

*What about Sting!!*

Sting is awsome!


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## Semper Fidelis (May 6, 2007)

I don't know how Christians are ever supposed to relate to Paul's analogies of athletes and soldiers if they stay inside and never participate in sports or activities that require one to discipline the body.


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## Anton Bruckner (May 6, 2007)

Bladestunner316 said:


> Sting is awsome!


he never went to the WWF to fight the Rock. such a shame.


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## ReformedWretch (May 6, 2007)

Now hold on...I was talking UFC/Mixed martial arts. Pro wrestling is another story. As someone who's been a small part of that world, I can say that it's VERY difficult to be a strong Christian there. Pro wrestling is one of the most dirty, seedy, under belly business out there. I got out of it because I felt as a Christian I couldn't remain a part. What you see on TV is not all that I am talking about either, in fact it's very little of what I am talking about.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 7, 2007)

I would root for the stinger over the rock. 

Adam,
WWE today is just as sleazy I only watch when Jeff Hardy is on man he can fly!


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## Kevin (May 7, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> I don't know how Christians are ever supposed to relate to Paul's analogies of athletes and soldiers if they stay inside and never participate in sports or activities that require one to discipline the body.


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## G.Wetmore (May 8, 2007)

Larger Catechism 136

Q. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?



> The Sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defence; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labour, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.


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## alwaysreforming (May 8, 2007)

*Hypocrisy Warning>*

I own a fight gym in Orlando....

but I have to admit that there is something ungodly about "fighting" per se.

Boxing, judo, wrestling, jiu jitsu, etc. seem alright, because there's less chance for serious, long-lasting injury (with the exception of brain damage in boxing) or serious pain.

With MMA, however, you are purposely trying to inflict the most painful and serious of injuries on your opponent:

for example, holding the back of the head and pulling the face into a vicious knee strike;
continuous elbowing with all one's might the face of your opponent trapped under you on the ground;
attacking the parts of your opponent's body that are seriously injured or bleeding;

In addition, it just seems awfully unsportsmanlike to kick a downed opponent.
(or beat with a club)  

That being said, I am still a big fan of MMA, simply because it is a more real-world fighting experience, unencumbered by rules which would leave you very unprepared in the street.

I can't, however, see the Apostle Paul engaged in this sport. Were he alive today, and had the extra time, I'm certain he would find MMA to be too ungodly to participate in.


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## Poimen (May 8, 2007)

G.Wetmore said:


> Larger Catechism 136
> 
> Q. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?



That was exactly what I was thinking of (except in my case it is the Continental version):

Q105: What does God require in the sixth Commandment?
A105: That I do not revile, hate, insult or kill my neighbor either in thought, word or gesture, much less in deed, whether by myself or by another, but lay aside all desire of revenge; moreover, *that I do not harm myself, nor wilfully run into any danger.* Wherefore also to restrain murder the magistrate is armed with the sword.

Q107: But is this all that is required: that we do not kill our neighbor?
A107: No, for in condemning envy, hatred, and anger, God requires us to love our neighbor as ourselves, to show patience, peace, meekness, mercy, and kindness towards him, *and to prevent his hurt as much as possible; *also, to do good even unto our enemies.

For those who support/watch/enjoy/participate in UFC & Pride fighting, how would you answer this criticism?


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## Ravens (May 8, 2007)

Let me start by saying that I realize my post will not answer Poimen or G. Wetmore. I'm not trying to deflect their question; just pointing this out:

If you take that to apply to martial arts, or any competition that either intentionally or unintentionally harms someone, then I would hope people on the board would at least be consistent, and also condemn boxing, kickboxing, hockey, football, etc. There might be degrees of difference between all of those, but I've personally seen more injuries watching football than between MMA; and if its a confessional issue, then the degrees are irrelevant, and we need to consistently apply the principle to all sports.

Practically, I find that most Christians don't have a problem with judo, jiu-jitsu, boxing, kickboxing, or Greco-Roman wrestling, taken on their own. However, when you "combine" all of those into MMA, somehow it takes on a life of its own in terms of the condemnation it arouses.

To my knowledge (and someone more knowledgeable can correct me, because I'm not an MMA-head, just someone with a layman's interest), there's only been one death in MMA, and that was in an _unsanctioned_ bout in Russia or somewhere like that.


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## Poimen (May 8, 2007)

Well you did (in part) answer my question Joshua; after all I am seeking for consistency myself. And, just for clarification, I am not condemning UFC/Pride etc. I was just curious as to how people would respond.


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## Kevin (May 8, 2007)

I think if we were to view LC136 as banning any/all fighting sports we would have to ban all contact sports of any kind as well.

BTW an interesting question would be to answered would be "How many Divines fenced or carried swords?" After all some of them were "gentlemen" and the practice was still nearly universal at that time. 

I think that the key to properly understanding LC136 is to be found in the use of "immoderate".


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## Puritanhead (May 8, 2007)

If I form a decisive opinion on the matter... I don't think it would be at all apt to reject martial arts in a structured class environment, so much as reject competitive boxing matches in which head shots are involved.


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## G.Wetmore (May 9, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> Let me start by saying that I realize my post will not answer Poimen or G. Wetmore. I'm not trying to deflect their question; just pointing this out:
> 
> If you take that to apply to martial arts, or any competition that either intentionally or unintentionally harms someone, then I would hope people on the board would at least be consistent, and also condemn boxing, kickboxing, hockey, football, etc. There might be degrees of difference between all of those, but I've personally seen more injuries watching football than between MMA; and if its a confessional issue, then the degrees are irrelevant, and we need to consistently apply the principle to all sports.
> 
> ...



I don't believe this would forbid all sports where injury is possible. The problem with ulimate fighting, etc. is that the whole point is to inflict pain and injury. In football, it is not. Yes, it is rough, but they are actually just playing a rough game. If the goal in football was to see who could bloody eachother up fastest, then it would fall into the same category as UFC; but that is not the goal.


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## G.Wetmore (May 9, 2007)

Kevin said:


> BTW an interesting question would be to answered would be "How many Divines fenced or carried swords?" After all some of them were "gentlemen" and the practice was still nearly universal at that time.
> 
> I think that the key to properly understanding LC136 is to be found in the use of "immoderate".



In that time, people learned and carried the sword as a way of protection. The divines would not have approved of people resolving personal disputes with the sword; and more importantly neither would Scripture.


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## Bladestunner316 (May 10, 2007)

What about Parkour?


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## kvanlaan (May 10, 2007)

> Now hold on...I was talking UFC/Mixed martial arts. Pro wrestling is another story. As someone who's been a small part of that world, I can say that it's VERY difficult to be a strong Christian there. Pro wrestling is one of the most dirty, seedy, under belly business out there. I got out of it because I felt as a Christian I couldn't remain a part. What you see on TV is not all that I am talking about either, in fact it's very little of what I am talking about.



Ever since I joined this board I knew there was something familiar about you Adam Leavelle, or shall I say "Macho Man" Leavelle! Those sunglasses ensured your anonymity for only a short while, my friend...





Admit it, you love Slim Jims, don'tcha?

(By the way, nice pants!  )


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## satz (May 10, 2007)

1 Corinthians 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

If all competitive fighting sports were always wrong, would Paul use them as an analogy for the christian life?

I think the distinction between a competition where skills are being tested (ie though a point scoring system or something similar) and one where the object is to beat the opponent till he can't get up is useful.


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## ReformedWretch (May 10, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> Ever since I joined this board I knew there was something familiar about you Adam Leavelle, or shall I say "Macho Man" Leavelle! Those sunglasses ensured your anonymity for only a short while, my friend...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ohhh yea!

lol 

I'll post a pic of me and the guy I managed a few years ago a little later. I thought maybe I posted it before?


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## Richard King (May 10, 2007)

I suppose this is like anything a person could do. Music, video games, paintball, golf etc. could be a bad activity or a wonderful one. I know that sounds sickenly like something a perpetual fence rider would say. I often look back on years of football (especially as my knees remind me of my age) and think that was wasted time BUT I can just as easily see many things I gained from it and reasons it was in God's plan.

I know that two of my sons studied Brazillian Style JiuJitsu for seven years under a guy named Klay Pittman and he was a strong influence regarding morality and how a man should present himself as a gentleman with honor. 

I also appreciated the small thing that in his school he told them that a simple nod of respect was sufficient. There wasn't all this worshipping of the teacher that some schools have.


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