# Can a 5-point Arminian go to Heaven?



## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

Obviously, I am asking for a little theological *speculation* here. We do not know the deep counsels of God, and we cannot see into human hearts.

Nevertheless, we read the Scriptures carefully, and we make decisions based on what the Bible says. That is why we reject Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. But what about staunch 5-point Arminians?

Let me be even more specific: If a person believes that he can lose his salvation, then is he trusting in Christ alone for his salvation? If not, then can he still be a Christian?

For this poll, I'm not going to vote for a while. I want to hear the thoughts of others, and I want to find out where everyone else stands. This question has been a struggle for me, considering how many Arminian family members I have.

As a backdrop for this poll, please consider Matt's article on Arminianism here: http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm

I agree with Matt that full-blown historic Arminianism is a heresy.

I also agree that a person does not have to be a 5-point Calvinist to be regenerate. (Thank God!)

But where should the doctrinal line be drawn? If a person is a 5-point Arminian, and even rejects eternal-security / perseverance of the saints, then is that person trusting in Christ alone for salvation?

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian?


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

The answer is YES IF a work of regeneration has been wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit. 


If the Holy Spirit has done His work in the heart and the person responds to the message He has given, the person will be eternally saved.

If the work is truly done, it is an infinite work, and no incorrect theology can undo it (Ecclesiastes 3:14).


The Bible sums it up beautifully, "The Lord knoweth them that are His."



Until anyone can show me where Christ lined up the DNA of Doctrines, I will NEVER believe otherwise.

There is a Calvinist road to hell as well as an arminian road to hell.


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> If the work is truly done, it is an infinite work, and no incorrect theology can undo it (Ecclesiastes 3:14).



Are you sure that there is "*no incorrect theology*" that can prove a person is unregenerate? 

For example, if a person says, "I don't believe God even exists", then they have revealed a point of doctrine which will damn them if they do not change. Truly regenerate Christians *never* falter on that point of doctrine. Christians cannot simultaneously be atheists.

Similarly, if a person says, "I believe in Buddha AND Jesus for salvation", then I believe that person cannot be a true Christian, and is still unregenerate. Truly regenerate Christians *never* falter on that point of doctrine. Christians cannot love both Buddha and Jesus.

There most certainly ARE some doctrines which a true Christian CANNOT believe. 

Is "conditional security" one of these doctrines? That is my question.


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

I do not know who wrote this, but it was sent to me ..

The authority of men should be set aside and destroyed, and the authority of Jesus restored to the people. The philosophies, metaphysics, and speculations of designing men must be set aside, and the clear, intelligible, and glorious teaching of Christ and His apostles restored to men. There must be a clear issue made between Christ and all human leaders, between His teaching and all human teaching, between His kingdom and all other kingdoms. There must be no question in the minds of men except about Jesus and His salvation, no issue except between the sinner's soul and Jesus. There must be no question about the theories and speculations of men. There is but one issue, and that one is concerning Christ. Shall I believe on Him? Shall I receive Him as my teacher, leader, and head? Shall I follow Him? Shall I bow my soul to Him? obey Him? Shall I be His disciple? These are the questions with which the world must be pressed. The great work of the preacher is not to defend himself, his views, or theories, but to defend his Master, Lord, and Redeemer, His cause and kingdom. His work is to lift up his Lord before men, and plead with them to believe on Him, trust in Him, learn of Him, follow and honor Him.


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> I do not know who wrote this, but it was sent to me ..



Sounds great . . . but what does it have to do with my post? It looks "off topic" to me.

Moderators . . . would you agree that this post is off-topic?


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



Joseph. I thought we were speaking of Christians here. I do not believe that if a person believes they can lose their salvation, they are lost. Again, I do not see Christ at all explaining this.

Unless he did at Zacheauus house and it is not recorded... hahahaha

ead an article, posted it here somewhere from Hoeksema. I will try to find it. This comes from a man who is a High Grace pastor. You may be surprised.


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



You calling in the referees? hahahahahah

I posted it because it says Christ is our only focus period. 

There must be no question about the theories and speculations of men. There is but one issue, and that one is concerning Christ.


Joseph


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Apr 25, 2005)

This goes back to the question - "What is the Gospel?"

Its not Arminianism.

So.......

- you have to qualify what you mean - 

Could there be a full fledged Armjinian, who, without hearing the true Gospel, be saved? No.

Could there be an Arminian that is wrestling with the truth and is saved? Surely.

Could there be an Arminian teacher who hates the doctrines of Grace and is saved? No.

The Gospel resides within the set of propositions that communicate the Gospel. If those ideas are rejected, then they are rejecting the word of God.

To echo, though what Jospeh is pointing at, I woudl heartily concur with him and say that what Christ taught and who Christ is remains exceedingly relevent.

For example, in John's Gospel alone, we are told to believe the Gospel and the teachings of Christ 53 times. Without beleiving what HE taught and what HE said, then you have nothing but empty words that could never save.

If one is having a problem with the ordo salutis, well, that's another discussion all together.


NKJ John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these."

NKJ John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

NKJ John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

NKJ John 5:38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

NKJ John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?

36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

NKJ John 7:5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.

NKJ John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

45 "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 "Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

NKJ John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight.

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"

36 He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"

38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

NKJ John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

NKJ John 11:15 "And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him."

26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"

42 "And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me."

48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation."

NKJ John 12:36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

47 "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

NKJ John 13:19 "Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

NKJ John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

29 "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.

NKJ John 16:9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

30 "Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."

31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?

NKJ John 17:20 " I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

NKJ John 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

NKJ John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.


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## pastorway (Apr 25, 2005)

to follow Matt, a peson could indeed be trusting Christ for salvation (be redeemed) and at the same time be confused theologically. A believer could even be led into doubt and while struggling with assurance fall for the lie that he could lose his salvation. Does this mean he loses his salvation? Of course not.

Phillip


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

I have a hard time with this issue because after reading the Gospel accounts, I find the apostles themselves did not have Christ foigured out.


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## pastorway (Apr 25, 2005)

PS - I did not vote because the proper response is not available! 

God is capable of saving a 5 point arminian. So the proper poll choice would be "5 Point Arminians MAY or MAY NOT be regenerate."

Phillip


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## The Lamb (Apr 25, 2005)

We are beating sround the perverrbial bush here. Could anyone please point out where the 5 points od calvinism are expressed to be believed in order to be regenerate in Scripture.

IS there any evidence of anyone whom Christ came in contct with, saved, then discussed anything other than believing in Him?

I CANNOT find one shred of evidence.

Salvation is first, doctrine becomes the fruit.

Again the Apostles questioned His reason for coming right to the end. And they were regenerate.

The only idea of Doctrine I can find in Scripture is that 

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. 


This is also spoken of as the sign of antichrist who denies this by the same apostle.

Paul emphatrically speaks of Gods Sovereignty, but does not appear to go as far as saying if you deny limited atonement your unregenerate, if you deny perseverance your unregenerate.

Joseph


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## Arch2k (Apr 25, 2005)

First definitions MUST be in place:

1)
From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Regeneration: 



> Only found in Mat_19:28 and Tit_3:5. This word literally means a "œnew birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Mat_19:28 the word is equivalent to the "œrestitution of all things" (Act_3:21). In Tit_3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1Jo_3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2Co_5:17); being born again (Joh_3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom_12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph_2:6); a being quickened (Eph_2:1, Eph_2:5).
> This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (Joh_1:12, Joh_1:13; 1Jo_2:29; 1Jo_5:1, 1Jo_5:4).
> As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "œdead in trespasses and sins."
> The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (Joh_3:3; Rom_7:18; Rom_8:7-9; 1Co_2:14; Eph_2:1; Eph_4:21-24).



In short, regeneration is where the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life to the unbeliever, and effectually calls him through belief in the gospel.

2)
From Merriam-Webster Online
Arminian:



> Main Entry: Ar"¢min"¢i"¢an
> Pronunciation: Ã¤r-'mi-nE-&n
> Function: adjective
> : of or relating to Arminius or his doctrines opposing the absolute predestination of strict Calvinism and maintaining the possibility of salvation for all



In short, an Arminian is a person who believes in the doctrines of Arminianism, most commonly in the "five-points" of Arminianism, or the five-points of the Remonstrance.

Are Arminians regenerate? This must NOT be an exercise of condemnation, or "playing God," but at the same time, we are called to judge a saving faith from a NON-saving faith. This discussion should not be about a game of "heretic-hunting," but about serious matter of judging "What is the TRUE gospel?" Is the true gospel compatable with the 5pts. of Arminianism?

Let me quote J. Gresham Machen:



> "What was it that gave rise to the stupendous polemic of the Epistle to the Galatians? To the modem Church the difference would have seemed to be a mere theological subtlety. About many things the Judaizers were in perfect agreement with Paul. The Judaizers believed that Jesus was the Messiah; there is not a shadow of evidence that they objected to Paul's lofty view of the person of Christ. Without the slightest doubt, they believed that Jesus had really risen from the dead. They believed, moreover, that faith in Christ was necessary to salvation. But the trouble was, they believed that something else was also necessary; they believed that what Christ had done needed to be pieced out by the believer's own effort to keep the Law. From the modern point of view the difference would have seemed to be very slight. Paul as well as the Judaizers believed that the keeping of the law of God, in its deepest import, is inseparably connected with faith. *The difference concerned only the logical -- not even, perhaps, the temporal -- order of three steps. Paul said that a man (1) first believes on Christ, (2) then is justified before God, (3) then immediately proceeds to keep God's law. The Judaizers said that a man (1) believes on Christ and (2) keeps the law of God the best he can, and then (3) is justified. The difference would seem to modern "practical" Christians to be a subtle and intangible matter, hardly worthy of consideration at all in view of the large measure of agreement in the practical realm. * What a splendid cleaning up of the Gentile cities it would have been if the Judaizers had succeeded in extending to those cities the observance of the Mosaic law, even including the unfortunate ceremonial observances! Surely Paul ought to have made common cause with teachers who were so nearly in agreement with him; surely he ought to have applied to them the great principle of Christian unity. "
> 
> As a matter of fact, however, Paul did nothing of the kind; and only because he (and others) did nothing of the kind does the Christian Church exist today. *Paul saw very clearly that the difference between the Judaizers and himself was the difference between two entirely distinct types of religion; it was the difference between a religion of merit and a religion of grace. If Christ provides only a part of our salvation, leaving us to provide the rest, then we are still hopeless under the load of sin. For no matter how small the gap which must be bridged before salvation can be attained, the awakened conscience sees clearly that our wretched attempt at goodness is insufficient even to bridge that gap. The guilty soul enters again into the hopeless reckoning with God, to determine whether we have really done our part. And thus we groan again under the old bondage of the law. Such an attempt to piece out the work of Christ by our own merit, Paul saw clearly, is the very essence of unbelief, Christ will do everything or nothing, and the only hope is to throw ourselves unreservedly on His mercy and trust Him for all.*
> 
> ...



Every point of the Remonstrance militates against the true gospel. Let me demonstrate:



> 1)	Partial Depravity "“ Man is not so depraved that salvation is not ULTIMATELY in his OWN hands (his choice by free-will). The Holy Spirit must of course help, but is a gentleman and will never effectually do save a person. The gap is small, but ultimately, you must be the one to (while in your unregenerate state), "œsave yourself."
> 
> 2)	Conditional Election "“ God´s decision to save a person is based off of his foreseeing your "œgood work" of deciding to save yourself, and based off of seeing this, you merit God´s choice to include you in his family.
> 
> ...




Arminianism is clearly salvation by works/merit, not by grace through faith alone. Let me quote R.C. Sproul:



> People often ask if I believe Arminians are Christians? [sic] I usually answer, "œYes, barely." They are Christians by what we call a felicitous inconsistency.
> What is this inconsistency? Arminians affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone. They agree that we have no meritorious work that counts toward our justification, that our justification rests solely on the righteousness and merit of Christ, that sola fide means justification by Christ alone, and that we must trust not in our own work, but in Christ´s work for our salvation"¦.Usually Arminians deny that their faith is a meritorious work, they would be explicitly denying justification by faith alone. The Arminian acknowledges that faith is something a person does. It is a work, though not a meritorious one. Is it a good work? Certainly it is not a bad work.
> Willing to Believe "“ The Controversy over Free Will, p. 25



I would challenge Sproul´s idea that Arminians do not view their faith as meritorious. Their entire system revolves around it being meritorious. What they do (faith) gets them eternal life (salvation). How is the Calvinism system different? After all, Calvinists place regeneration before faith, not justification before faith. The difference is that in the Calvinistic system, faith is TRULY a gift from God. In order to be a gift, you couldn´t "œdecide" (of your free will) to do it. (1Co 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?)

In the Calvinistic system, Christ accomplishes all of the Covenant on our behalf, INCLUDING faith. If a person excludes just that one act from his work, and attributes it even partially to himself, he is no longer under a Covenant of Redemption/Grace, but under a Covenant of Works or obedience.

I will now provide some quotes from historic theologians that demonstrate some of the ideas expounded here. I am not suggesting that all of these people believed that "œall Arminians are unregenerate," but the logical outcome of their statements MUST be that all Arminians ARE unregenerate.

John Owen(1616-1683)	


> To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. (III:433)



J.H. Merle d´Aubigne (1794-1872)


> To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism. (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)



Charles Hodge (1797-1878) 


> No more soul-destroying doctrine could well be devised than the doctrine that sinners can regenerate themselves, and repent and believe just when they please. . . As it is a truth both of Scripture and of experience that the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation, it is essential that he should be brought to a practical conviction of that truth. When thus convicted, and not before, he seeks help from the only source whence it can be obtained. (Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, 1970), Vol. 2, p. 277.)



C.H. Spurgeon (1834-1892)	


> Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, `If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is `Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men." (Sermon, Free Will-A Slave)



J.I. Packer & O.R. Johnston 


> "Is our salvation wholly of God or does it ultimately depend on something that we do for ourselves? Those who say the latter, that it ultimately depends on something we do for ourselves, thereby deny humanity's utter helplessness in sin and affirm that a form of semi-Pelagianism is true after all. It is no wonder then that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being, in principle, both a return to Rome because, in effect, it turned faith into a meritorious work, and a betrayal of the Reformation because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the reformers' thought. Arminianism was indeed, in Reformed eyes, a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favor of New Testament Judaism. For to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle than to rely on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other. In the light of what Luther says to Erasmus there is no doubt that he would have endorsed this judgment. (Introduction to The Bondage of the Will p..59)



Augustus Toplady (1740-1778) 


> The greatest judgment which God Himself can, in this present life, inflict upon a man is, to leave him in the hand of his own boasted free-will. (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html)



Duane Edward Spencer


> The Arminian view insists that it is man´s act of faith which merits his being elected according to the foreknowledge of God. If such be the case man is saved by works, and not by the grace of God, because he has done at least one thing pleasing to God, and all on his own! (TULIP The Five Points of Calvinism in the Light of Scripture, p. 37)



In closing, I would like to say that many have taken this doctrine to extremes condemning Calvin, Pink, almost any who even "œspeaks peace" to Arminians. I believe this to be unfounded, even bordering on cultish. We must be fair in our judgment of such doctrines, but we must be bold in proclaiming the gospel. We must be loving in our approach to unbelievers, but discerning within the body.

We also must be careful to say that ONLY Calvinists are saved. Many have been Amyraldian, or some "œtheological soup" that does not place their obedience as prerequisite to justification. These people are just as saved as you or I, but anyone who places their faith (or any good work) as something that comes from an unregenerate soul, as prerequisite to justification, denies the gospel.

I believe that Matt´s article on "œArminianism" is very fair, and recommend it. As he says 



> contemporary Arminianism is often confusing; it melds together a number of different theological ideas to come up with a theological "soup""¦But for the most part, each "Arminian" must be dealt with individually in order to assess their understanding, or flavor, of theological soup. It may very well be that they are believing a damning heresy. It may very well be that they are simply confused and need help to understand the doctrines of God's grace, or their depravity. But in any case, the Calvinist ought always to be fair, gentle and loving in his approach to preaching the grace of God in Jesus Christ.



The Gospel is about Christ's righteousness APART from our righteousness. A righteousness that is alien from ourselves, not a righteousness that comes from ourselves.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Soli Deo Gloria


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## Arch2k (Apr 25, 2005)

Westminster Confession of Faith



> 14:2
> By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein; and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. *But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.*



Westminster Larger Catechism



> Question 72: What is justifying faith?
> Answer: Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he,* being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition*, not only assents to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receives and rests upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.


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## Preach (Apr 25, 2005)

Where is St. Augustine's soul residing?


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## pastorway (Apr 26, 2005)

"believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved....."

"confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead....you will be saved"

"whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"

If perfect or mature doctrinal understanding of how God saves sinners is necessary for salvation then no one can be saved!

Phillip


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

Believe that Christ ALONE saves you. It is that simple. A child can believe that.

in my opinion, Arminians (as defined above) deny it.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

Jeff. Again, instead of looking what man says, let us look at what Christ says.

Show me, or wqe can look together at what "list" Christ exclaims in the Holy Writ.

I am binding your hands from usinf any confession or reformed writer. I know this may be impossible for you, but we must do it this way.

I honestly could care less what any man has said 500 years ago filled with hatred.

Let us proceede with every encounter Christ had with a person.


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

Joseph,

Some scriptures to meditate on:

Psalm 71:16 "“ I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD; I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone.

Isaiah 26:12 "“ LORD, You will establish peace for us, since You have also performed for us all our works.

Isaiah 42:8 "“ I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Isaiah 45:23-24 "“ I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

Romans 4:4-5 "“ Now to the one who work, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes hi Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11:5-6 "“ In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Galatians 3:18 "“ For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 5:2-3 "“ Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law.

Galatians 6:8 "“ For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 6:14 "“ But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Titus 1:16 "“ They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Nobody is trying to come up with a "list of doctrines" that a person must believe to be saved. What I am saying is that Arminians do not believe that Christ alone saved them. They put trust in their own flesh to rescue themselves from hell. Christ just provides the life-raft, but ultimately them must grab on. They save themselves. This is not the gospel.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

But by saying this, you beg the question that this becomes a false doctrine of theirs brother. WHat this means is that it is easier to say if someone believes this or that, they are unregenerate, but you cannot say what they must believe?

Again. Let us look at every encounter Christ had. Not scriptures to prove His sovereignty. Just encounters with people Christ saved.

And then, tell me when and where He explained to them what must be believed in order to be saved.



Start with the Woman at the well.

Then Zaccheauss

Then the blind and lame and possessed.

The Apostles.


Joseph


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

Joseph,

You are trying to pin the experiences given in the gospels over/against the rest of scripture. 

The rest of the Bible is just as good as the Words of Jesus himself.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 26, 2005)

The question asked at the beginning (which I think is unanswerable in the way it is asked, since we cannot know men's hearts--ergo, I won't join the poll), the question, I say, is not concerned with a _positive_ listing of "doctrines that must be understood, believed, and held in order to go to heaven." *Rather,* the thrust is: if you earnestly believe _falsely,_ that is--if you understand, believe, and hold to a gospel that is no gospel at all--can you be saved? The simplest answer, _the biblical answer,_ to that question is, No.

The proper, saving Object of our faith is inseperable from the truth about him. *Both* are necessary for salvation. Therefore, the heathen is lost, the Buddhist, the Muslim, etc.; all who are ignorant of, or who reject, the truth about Jesus. Therefore, many Christians-in-name are lost as well, because their faith is cultural, or it is actually somewhere other than in Jesus, or they actively believe desperately wrong things about Jesus and the Faith he taught. And, I might add, therefore some "Calvinists" who have the doctrine (intelectually satisfied) but not the Person are also in a lost condition. Both, I say, are necessary for salvation.

Full-blown Arminianism doesn't just "mix up a list" of theological truths, and get them wrong or misstate something. It is a worked out belief-system that militates against the true gospel. Jesus told us the truth (and only the truth) would set us free. Paul states that we are saved by knowledge of the truth. And one cannot merely hold on to "Jesus," when no definition of that Person, or why one should cling to him, is given. The Faith that Jesus imparts will embrace the truth, eventually, even taking our individual limitations and capacities for reception and integration into account. What is ultimate truth-rejection if not a rejection of Jesus?

Arminianism teaches (in its pure form, I emphasize) that one's salvation is ultimately up to himself. Many, many "Arminians" I'm sure would reject that idea, nevertheless, it is true! It is a demonstrable fact. If one does accept this construct _and receives, and rests in it_ (the substance of faith) he has chosen himself for his savior over Jesus, though he may be grateful for the "possibility" that Jesus (alone) could have opened for his self-salvation. His hope is vain.

The solution some have latched onto then is this: better to have no theology, than risk having a wrong theology. But that is just another way of saying _knowing Jesus_ really isn't important. It's been pointed out several times already that often--maybe even most of the time--a believer's faith is better than his theology. And thank God for that. We are constantly engaged in a process of growth in grace.


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Jeff. Again, instead of looking what man says, let us look at what Christ says.
> 
> Show me, or wqe can look together at what "list" Christ exclaims in the Holy Writ.
> ...




Excellent idea. Let's take a look at John 6:



> [35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
> [36] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
> *[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.*


Notice here in verse 37, right in the middle of His preaching, Jesus talks to the crowd about God's Sovereign election. He tells them that all people given to Him by the Father will *certainly* come to Him. 


> [38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
> [39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that *of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing*, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Again in verse 39, Jesus tells the crowd that He will not lose anyone who the Father has given to Him. This is the Preservation of the Saints.


> [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This verse also testifies to Sovereign election. Notice that the 'raising up at the last day' is repeated both in verses 39 and 40. In verse 39, those raised at the last day are those given to Jesus by the Father. In verse 40, those raised at the last day are those who "believeth on him" . . . Jesus is telling the crowd that this is the _same group._ Those who the Father gives to Jesus will certainly believe in Jesus.


> [41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
> [42] And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
> [43] Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
> *[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.*


Notice in verse 44 how Jesus responds to the crowd's unbelief. He does not say, "You don't believe now, but if you will just decide to believe, then you will be saved!" Instead, Jesus responds by telling them that nobody is even _able_ to come to Him unless the Father draws him. And yet, if the Father _does_ draw him, then his salvation is certain, and Jesus "will raise him up at the last day."


> [45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
> [46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
> *[47] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.*


Think carefully about verse 47. If the people in the crowd didn't believe what Jesus clearly said in verses 37, 39, 40, and 44, then are they 'beleiving on him'? 


Now, for the sake of space and time, let's skip ahead to verse 63:


> *[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:* the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Is Jesus calling on them, in the flesh, to start believing in Him? No, because "the flesh profiteth nothing". But if indeed it is "the spirit that quickeneth", then regeneration is God's Sovereign act, and not something initiated by man.


> [64] *But there are some of you that believe not*. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
> [65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that *no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.*


1) Jesus plainly said in verse 64 that some of the crowd did not believe.
2) To follow up this statement, Jesus did _not_ urge them to believe. Instead, He plainly stated that nobody is even _able_ to come to Him, unless "it were given unto him of my Father."

Now let's see the response of many in the crowd:



> [66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


Jesus _knew_ there were many unbelievers in the crowd, and He preached the full Gospel anyway, including the doctrines of grace.

Jesus _knew_ that many people in the crowd would respond negatively, by turning their backs on Him, and yet He preached the full Gospel anyway, including the doctrines of grace.

Note that Jesus talked about fallen man's total inability in verse 65, and the immediate response in verse 66 was that "many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

--- I have little doubt that many of them would have _kept_ walking with Christ had Jesus been a little more "careful" about pushing such controversial doctrine. But for some reason, Jesus thought that the doctrines of grace were important, even in the presentation of the Gospel. Maybe we should take a hint.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> Joseph,
> 
> You are trying to pin the experiences given in the gospels over/against the rest of scripture.
> ...




Jeff:

I am in now way doing this. IT is simple. Christ saves period. So let us look at how He encountered people and saved them. For instance, when Peter met Him at the shore.

Did Christ ask Peter if he believed in the 5 points from dordt? Did He ask Peter anything pertaining to what He believed? NO> He asked if He loved Him.

Plus, the whole of scripture does not even get into some sort of "doctrinal salvation" jeff. This is a bigger error than arminianism. 

You also mentioned judging saving faith. Where are we commanded to do that? 

You shall know them by their fruits. The fruits are the fruits of the spirit that Paul lists.

Look at them closely. 

If those who have an arminian slant are not saved, then 3 people ended up in heavan until 1500 post death and resurrection

1) Apostle Paul
2) Gottschalk
3) maybe Auggie, but with his sacramentalism, we may wonder then.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

Joseph. This is not the point of salvation. My goodness, I walked away the first time I heard of election, so am I out? Please do not use John 6 as Christ setting up any condition.

As I mentioned earlier.

The answer is YES IF a work of regeneration has been wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit. 

If the Holy Spirit has done His work in the heart and the person responds to the message He has given, the person will be eternally saved.

if the work is truly done, it is an infinite work, and no incorrect theology can undo it (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
The Bible sums it up beautifully, "The Lord knoweth them that are His."

This is what this thread is about guys and gals.

"What must I do to be saved?"

Peter answered, dont be an arminian, and confess the 5 points.

Cornelious'WHat must i do to be saved?"

Pauls answer, DOnt deny any of the 5 points. 


Again, this is done in jest. But I am tired of this dance, all I know is Christ saved, saves, and will save. 

Nobody os perfcect in their theology. And the 5 points are not the bar.

Joseph


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 26, 2005)

What about the woman at the well?
Since we don't have every word that was stated, we have to make some inferences from the text:
This woman knew something about the promised Messiah. Therefore, we must assume she had a basic understanding of the God of the Pentateuch (since the Samaritans generally rejected the rest of the OT). And she understood the sacrificial system (substitutionary atonement). And she understood that the Messiah was the Prophet ("He told me everything I ever did!"). She believed every word that Jesus told her. Jesus told her that her Samaritan-faith was ineffectual ("Ye worship what ye know not, ... for salvation is of the Jews"). And Jesus taught them all many more things, which things were necessary for their salvation ("Now we believe, for we have heard for ourselves").

The last two points are not without significance to the question of the thread. Jesus told the woman that _her faith-system_ was drastically incomplete--to the point of being damning. The faith she had in the coming Messiah was not a faith that embraced him fully or properly, until he showed himself to her, and she saw him finally as the One who could deliver her from her sin--sin which she was not able in her own power to in any way escape from.

Let's see someone else take up the case of the rich young ruler...


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> What about the woman at the well?
> Since we don't have every word that was stated, we have to make some inferences from the text:
> This woman knew something about the promised Messiah. Therefore, we must assume she had a basic understanding of the God of the Pentateuch (since the Samaritans generally rejected the rest of the OT). And she understood the sacrificial system (substitutionary atonement). And she understood that the Messiah was the Prophet ("He told me everything I ever did!"). She believed every word that Jesus told her. Jesus told her that her Samaritan-faith was ineffectual ("Ye worship what ye know not, ... for salvation is of the Jews"). And Jesus taught them all many more things, which things were necessary for their salvation ("Now we believe, for we have heard for ourselves").
> ...




Bruce. But we must never insert anything that "might" have been said. Their was no long discourse on systematic theology. Christ came to save sinners. That is it. TO understand how or why is not the first priority. He does.

IT does nto say, "knowledgable sinners", awakened sinners, regenerated sinners, believers in the doctrines of grace sinners, free will sinners, it plainly says sinners. Understanding does not have anything to do with salvation. 

Again, look at the Apostles, they thought Christ was going to start a revolt against rome. The doubted everything. Were they regenerate? Of course they were, except Judas of course.

So I will emphatically state that proper understanding does nto effect salvation one bit. 

Now I am not so blind to say that one who professes something contrary to Christ for salvation is rgenerate. IE; Mohammad, Buddha. But just like the gentiles who had not the law were grafted in. 

The answer is that God saves for His namesake. nothign else..


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 26, 2005)

I didn't appeal to anything Jesus might have said, only to what he did say (and what she said). The things they said _presuppose_ a specific background, which it is perfectly legitimate to bring into the discussion.

And although you may have interpreted (rightly or wrongly) the statements of some to mean that they thought a list of things was necessary to salvation, that is by no means the thrust of the thread, nor have I made such a point. The problem with "Arminianism" is that in its pure, explicit form, it does in fact teach a false gospel, and therefore a false Jesus. So, believing in its tenets wholeheartedly means that the Jesus of the Gospels is being actively rejected.

Jesus' made it clear that where he laid down the line, it was to be obeyed--in the case of the rich young ruler, it was to sell his possessions, and come follow him. This _truth_ the youthful leagalist was unwilling to believe or do. He rejected the piece of the _truth_ that Jesus set before him.

So it's not a list. Or a systematic theology. It's not a nicely integrated theological system, or else how could little children believe the gospel? But it *is* believing the truth when that truth is made evident to your sight. It is believing the parts of the truth that you do see, in no small degree because they are visible to you at all. It's one thing to say "I don't understand what I see." Its another to say, "I reject what I see," or "I see what I want."

As for understanding being no part of faith (if I understood you correctly) when you said, "Understanding does not have anything to do with salvation," what do you make of the statements of Jesus (John 8:32) and Paul (1 Tim. 2:4)?


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> IT does nto say, "knowledgable sinners", awakened sinners, regenerated sinners, believers in the doctrines of grace sinners, free will sinners, it plainly says sinners. Understanding does not have anything to do with salvation.
> 
> So I will emphatically state that proper understanding does not effect salvation one bit.



On the contrary, proper understanding affects salvation enormously:

[13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
[14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And part of believing/accepting who Jesus *is*, is believing/accepting what Jesus *says*. 

Do we have to understand _everything_ in theology to be saved? Of course not. But do we have to understand _something_? Of course we do! 

One of the things we have to understand is that salvation is through Christ *alone.* --- NOT Christ plus circumcision, NOT Christ plus works, NOT Christ plus a lifetime of obedience, etc.

Read the book of Galatians. The false teachers in Galatia *affirmed* that belief in Christ is *essential* for salvation. But they did not teach that it was *enough*. They *added* circumcision as a requirement. And Paul didn't just slap them on the wrists . . . he *cursed* them. (Read Gal. 1:8-9.)

How are Arminians any different from the false teachers in the book of Galatians? The Galatians added circumcision as a requirement for salvation. Arminians add a lifetime of "free will" obedience as a requirement for salvation. What's the difference? Both ADD something to the Gospel.

Have you read this? --- http://www.biblelighthouse.com/salvation/nainimra.htm
I go into some detail here comparing Arminians with Roman Catholics.

Joseph, please thoughtfully consider the book of Galatians. Is belief in Christ the *only* requirement for salvation? Or is it important for it to be belief in Christ *alone*?

The entire Protestant Reformation hangs on that one question.


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> So it's not a list. Or a systematic theology. It's not a nicely integrated theological system, or else how could little children believe the gospel? But it *is* believing the truth when that truth is made evident to your sight. It is believing the parts of the truth that you do see, in no small degree because they are visible to you at all. It's one thing to say "I don't understand what I see." Its another to say, "I reject what I see," or "I see what I want."


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> Obviously, I am asking for a little theological *speculation* here. We do not know the deep counsels of God, and we cannot see into human hearts.
> 
> Nevertheless, we read the Scriptures carefully, and we make decisions based on what the Bible says. That is why we reject Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. But what about staunch 5-point Arminians?
> ...



Personally, I don't care for the way the poll is worded because it leaves me to choose between to options, neither of which are necessarily so. If there was a "Maybe" button, I would vote that way.

Most Arminians (I say this as one who has a lot of Arminian family members and as one who has rubbed elbows with a lot), are more guilty of fuzzy thinking (or no thinking) than serious theological reflection. They will adamantly affirm salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. They just have a very low view of grace. I don't think one can read the writings of Arminius, or John Wesley, or my grandfather for that matter (a staunch Arminian in the Weslyan tradition!) and not be convinced of the reality of their regeneration.

Dort may have gone too far in decrying the Remonstrants as heretics in 1619, but then there were other issues at stake, not the least of which was church/state relations.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> Believe that Christ ALONE saves you. It is that simple. A child can believe that.
> 
> in my opinion, Arminians (as defined above) deny it.



You probably have not talked to any then. As I said in a different post, most Arminians are more guilty of fuzzy theological thinking than denying grace.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 26, 2005)

I should have read the rest of the thread, as now I see where Jeff was going with his arguments!

Agreed, Arminianism in its purest form denies grace. And yet, most Arminans do not give much thought to the logical conclusions of their own positions. I doubt seriously that God holds this against them. It is one thing to attempt to establish ones own righteousness in a brazen rejection of grace. It is another entirely to be guilty of not thinking deeply enough about grace.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't think Dort went too far in calling arminianism heresy. It is. But at teh same time we must understand the shallow intellectual condition of the church today. There are many Arminians, as Kevin pointed out, who would adamantly deny they believe in salvation by works or self-salvation. For the most part I would agree with them too, especially when you see how their lives are dominated by loving obedience to the best of their ability. The problem, and the hope, of most Arminians is inconsistent thinking. You must allow for growth in the grace AND knowledge of our Lord, especially with the severe lack of faithful teachers in the Church today.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 26, 2005)

That's the key right there. To borrow Josh Hicks wonderful word - Arminians are not the most 'theologious' members of the body.


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Did Christ ask Peter if he believed in the 5 points from dordt? Did He ask Peter anything pertaining to what He believed? NO> He asked if He loved Him.



No he did not ask him about the 5 pts. from dort, and rightly so for several reasons.
1) The synod of Dordt hadn't occured yet
2) NOBODY, let me repeat this ONE last time NOBODY on this thread is suggesting that one must assent to the 5 points of calvinism in order to be saved. 
3) He did ask him the following:
"But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."



> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Plus, the whole of scripture does not even get into some sort of "doctrinal salvation" jeff. This is a bigger error than arminianism.



See above. Nobody has ever suggested a doctrinal salvation, unless you call the gospel a doctrine....then yes a person MUST believe the gospel before he is saved. You deny this, orthodoxy affirms this. Many scriptures have been given to you in the thread on "eternal justification" and you denyed them.



> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> You also mentioned judging saving faith. Where are we commanded to do that?
> 
> You shall know them by their fruits. The fruits are the fruits of the spirit that Paul lists.



Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue.

Matthew 7:15-20 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 

Matthew 12:36-37 - 36But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." 

Mark 16:16 - 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 

Luke 6:43-45 -"For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart[g] brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. 

This verse PROVES that the FRUIT we are to judge is a persons profession, for what comes out of their mouth, comes from the heart.

Luke 19:22 - And he said to him, "Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant

John 7:24 - Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." 

1 Corinthians 10:14-15 - 14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 

Galatians 1:8 - But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Here we are commanded not only to judge the gospel that MEN preach, but even if an ANGEL preaches, we are to judge what they say.

Hebrews 4:12 - 12For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We are to compare everything they say, not according to our opinions, but according to the Word of God.

1 John 4:1-3a - 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. * 

1 John 4:6 - We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

2 John 9-10 - 9Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> ...



In fact, I myself was a staunch Arminian (although i didn't read Arminius or Wesley) and most of my family, including my parents are still Arminian.

When presented with the five points of Calvinism, I immediately HATED the truth. While not being able to defend the Arminian position, after I looked at the 5 pts. of Arminianism, I knew that is what I believed my entire life (without knowing it).


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

Jeff, I have read the scriptures. And I believe them `100%, I do nto know what the eternal justification thread has to do with this. But moving forward.

You are still not addressing an important issue.

Those whom Christ physically encountered and saved did nto have access to the Holy Writ as we do today.

Did blind bart know of the 5 points?

You insist that noone is saying one must believe in the 5 points of cal to be saved, and rightly so, but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate? How can this be? Is this saying, :I may not know what the truth is, but I know what it is not?"

The encounter with Peter I am speaking of is after His resurrection in Johns account.

Do you love me 3 times Jeff... Nothing else was asked.

I believe Peter was regenerate long before then.

The context of fruits is not exactly what you say. Many profess to be His, but are not. This is what Christ is speaking about.

This is how we are justified before men. By our works. But even then one can do well, but still do them for the wrong reasons.

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian? THis was the original question. I say yes. 


Joseph


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Jeff, I have read the scriptures. And I believe them `100%, I do nto know what the eternal justification thread has to do with this. But moving forward.
> 
> You are still not addressing an important issue.
> ...



Jesus didn't say anything about adding circumcision to salvation...does that mean we can have saving faith and still do that? 



> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate?



Now you are mis-representing me and I don't appreciate it. Luther didn't believe in Limited Atonement, but he also (assumadly) didn't trust himself to save him.

I have tried to make this as simple as possible, one must believe that Christ ALONE saves sinners. If they add anything to this, not matter how small, they are under the obligation to keep the entire law for justification. 

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. 
*By His knowledge * My righteous Servant shall justify many, 
For He shall bear their iniquities.


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## Poimen (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> I should have read the rest of the thread, as now I see where Jeff was going with his arguments!
> 
> Agreed, Arminianism in its purest form denies grace. And yet, most Arminans do not give much thought to the logical conclusions of their own positions. I doubt seriously that God holds this against them. It is one thing to attempt to establish ones own righteousness in a brazen rejection of grace. It is another entirely to be guilty of not thinking deeply enough about grace.



Well said. And isn't it true that the teachers are more responsible than their pupils? 

James 3:1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

In other words actually knowing what Calvinism and Arminianism teaches and still refusing to believe in Reformed soteriology will end up being more 'troublesome' for those who are ignorant and have been taught nothing else their whole lives.
Having said that there are many Arminians who believe that we are saved by grace AND works. The worst of them are really no different (in essence) than Rome.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



I agree with you Jeff. i did not mean to misrepresent you. I just find absolutely nothign good coming from a thread like this. I disagree with YOUR assesment. But you are free to argue as you wish

I will again point you to Whitefield/ Wesley. Not once did Whitefield ever question Wesleys Love for Christ.

I much rather stay there. Perhaps I have not been chosen to have the spirit to decide if an arminian is saved. I am much more concerned with Glorifying God. And fail there miserably anway!!!!!!!!


Joseph


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



Yes, you make a good point. But I for one do not wish to try to argue that Wesley or even Arminius are in hell. I just got done reading a good deal of Arminius for a project I had to do. He sounds pretty Calvinistic in some spots!


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## Augusta (Apr 26, 2005)

Here's a question.

Would God leave His elect in error? 

Can an elect person who is given "the mind of Christ" not see the truth when it is shown him?

1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?"[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

Not only is our election and regeneration the work of God but also our knowledge is the work of God. He is the one who upholds us and teaches us. He would not have us "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting." He equips us with all we need. 

Ephesian 4:11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 
14 that we should *no longer * be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the *effective working * by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. 


He teaches his elect by His Spirit. If the Truth is now in us our minds are renewed, we can no longer walk in the old way. 

Ephesians 4:
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should *no longer walk * as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 
*18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; * 

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 
*21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him*, as the truth is in Jesus: 
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I know many on this board who were led out of arminian churches by outside teaching. Not by anything they heard in said churches. My husband and I got to where we were just sickened by our church and could no longer stand to sit under the teaching and worship there. This was a church who demonstrably: raising hands, clapping, weeping, etc. proclaimed the name of Jesus and yet it was noxious to our ears and eyes. What changed us? What opened our eyes and ears? God did not leave us in that church. I went there my whole life almost. We were both baptized and married there. It was our church home. We would never have left unless compelled to by outside forces. And compelled we were. 

I just can't see God leaving his elect who are precious to him in that kind of false teaching. He wants His elect to worship him in spirit and in truth. He is the one who grows us up in Him through trial and suffering. He sanctifies us. He would not leave us in darkness.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> Here's a question.
> 
> Would God leave His elect in error?
> ...




I believe Luther held on to some of Rome. So this question is unanswerable.

The elect will know whom they believe. Christ, the SOn of the Living God!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

2 Thess 2:10b-12 - They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

In regards to the gospel, Luther believed the exact opposite of Rome. Not all truth is the gospel.


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> In regards to the gospel, Luther believed the exact opposite of Rome. Not all truth is the gospel.




Luther had some stain of Baotismal Regeneration left in him.

As an aside, does Eschatollogy fall into what one believes could be wrong? 

If I hold to a rapture, but believe in Sov grace, am I believing a flase Gospel? Because the end times is part of the Gospel


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_ Because the end times is part of the Gospel



How?


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_ Because the end times is part of the Gospel
> ...



How?

You do not consider end times as part of the Gospel? That God will gather His elect?

This is part of the good news


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## Preach (Apr 26, 2005)

Traci,
I appreciate your question. It is quite challenging. Would God leave His elect in false teaching? Well, at least from one perspective, it seems that He absoulutely does (if we are talking about the Arminian system). It seems that the overwhelming majority of Christians in the United Staes are Arminian.


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## Preach (Apr 26, 2005)

St. Augustine believed in baptismal regeneration. Moreover, he denied the doctrine of assurance. He thought that any person who could know of their assurance must be a prideful person (unlesss they received a special revelation from heaven). For the great Augustine, pride is built into assurance.
"In Christ",
Bobby


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

Paul didn't include eschatology in the gospel "proper":

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "“ Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you , unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"¦

The gospel Paul speaks of is that "by which also you are saved." There is a difference between believing some false doctrines and rejecting Christ Alone for salvation. Study the gospel. Study saving faith. You can not trust in yourself to save you"¦if you do, you will get exactly what you believe in"¦."As a man believes in his heart, so is he."

Matt 7:22-23 - "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

All of these who stand before God are appealing to their own acts, something of which they have to boast of. David on the other hand appeals to something completely OUTSIDE of himself:

Psalm 71:16 "“ I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD; I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone.

If God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, and you appeal to ANYTHING you have done, INCLUDING anything you believe"¦.he will say DEPART FROM ME!! We must appeal to the Lamb of God, whose righteousness is perfect, and clothes our sinfulness so that we may endure the presence and perfect justice of the Father.


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## Puritanhead (Apr 26, 2005)

"Maybe"

The Apostle Paul said he was saved when he "took heed to sound doctrine" among other propositions.

I've had people purport that they discern whose saved by perceiving their joy or just talking to them... but I don't have a magic device called an "electometer" nor I am I a discerner of hearts, so I am hardly emboldened to make such presumptions or pronouncements. 

5-point Arminianism is bad theology, so I just say "perhaps" or "maybe." I will bluntly say that there are strains of Arminianism that seem to be so in bondage to a system of works-righteousness, legalism and a cult of will-worship-- that there salvation is indeed in question. Arminianism is essentially Romanism stripped of it's sacramental and liturgical excesses.

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> Paul didn't include eschatology in the gospel "proper":
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "“ Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you , unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"¦
> ...




Paul spoke very much on the end times Jeff. Very much

SO if one believes 1 cor 15 then they are saved. Nothing in their of arminian doctrine or calvinistic doctrine.


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## turmeric (Apr 26, 2005)

You are making yourself a moving target, Lamb. This started out with a question whether you can be saved & believe in the Rapture, now it's whether you believe I Cor. 15! There is no such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in Christ's return, unless said individual had a particularly bad catechist, and the Holy Spirit will fix that.

P.S. Of course I believe in the Rapture! Paul mentioned it in his letters to the Thessalonians, the Greek phrase translated is "caught up". I hope my salvation doesn't depend on knowing for sure just when this will occur!


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> You are making yourself a moving target, Lamb. This started out with a question whether you can be saved & believe in the Rapture, now it's whether you believe I Cor. 15! There is no such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in Christ's return, unless said individual had a particularly bad catechist, and the Holy Spirit will fix that.
> 
> P.S. Of course I believe in the Rapture! Paul mentioned it in his letters to the Thessalonians, the Greek phrase translated is "caught up". I hope my salvation doesn't depend on knowing for sure just when this will occur!





That is my point Meg. I am asserting that end times is part of the Gospel. Many reformers deny a rapture, so does that leave you believing a false Gospel?

Paul speaks very clearly on Christs return and So did Christ Himself. 



Joseph


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## The Lamb (Apr 26, 2005)

Here is something I posted in another thread fro Herman Hoeksema.

taken from the January 2, 1919 issue of the Banner:

"You know, a Calvinist (excuse the term; I am not any too fond of it myself. Never do I use it if I can help it. I don´t think I have used it a half dozen times from the pulpit, which is not very frequent in three years and a half), I say a Calvinist is after all a distinctive Christian. Not all Christians are Calvinists. Mark, I say: "˜not all Christians are Calvinists.´ They may be Christians all right. Sure! Dear children of God, with whom I love to shake hands. I don´t believe that there is a Calvinist that denies this. I don´t think that there is a Calvinist who maintains that the Calvinists are the only Christians. And those who love to waste paper (and that in this time when paper is so valuable!) by fighting against Calvinists who maintain that they are the only Christians on earth, are fighting a shadow, a product of their own imagination. No, but I claim that a Calvinist is a Christian of a distinctive type, with distinctive principles and views, in distinction, namely, from other Christians. Never let any method of reasoning lead you to the belief that all Christians are Calvinists, for then things will be getting so dark, that you lose all power to distinguish. The Methodist is a good sincere Christian, all right. Of course he is! A dear brother. But he is not a Calvinist. The same is true of the Anabaptist, the Lutheran, etc. All together they constitute the church of Jesus Christ on earth, as long as they confess that Jesus is the Christ. But within that large circle there are different shades and forms of faith, and the Calvinist also maintains his own distinctive world and life view in their midst. Now, what I mean to say is that to maintain your distinctive character as a Calvinistic Christian, you must not merely be able to discern clearly what distinguishes you from the rest, but you must have the courage of your conviction such as can be the fruit only of the faith in the Word of God. Only the conviction that our form of faith is the purest expression of Scripture (again, mark, I do not say: the only form or expression) can give us the courage to refuse amalgamation. And therefore, it is necessary, that we are conscious of the relation between our Reformed Faith and the Word of God."


May by Gods grace, anyone who believes that Heavan will consist of only those who profess our doctrnes be crushed and humbled at the feet of Our Gracious Savior.


Joseph


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## Augusta (Apr 26, 2005)

There are many reformed churches that are Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, and even Anglican that would call themselves calvinists. Their various creeds and confessions, the book of common prayer, the WCF, the 29 articles of the Anglican church all uphold the doctrines of grace. Not that there aren't liberal versions of all these churches that don't pay much attention to their own creed and confessions anymore. I don't think calvinism is a distinct kind of christian. I believe as Spurgeon, a baptist, believes that a calvinist is shorthand for biblical christianity. There was even a methodist on the White Horse Inn that is the professor at some college I can't remember who was a calvinist. 

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Augusta]


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## Arch2k (Apr 26, 2005)

Joseph,

You have been on the offensive this entire time - now it's my turn (and yes I will use the same arguments you present to me against your own position-but not because they are valid).

1) Prove from Jesus' encounters that Arminians are regenerate.
2) I want to see scripture (not quotes from others) that shows a person can believe in something other than Christ ALONE for salvation and still be regenerate.
3) Show me where a person doesn't have to believe in Eschetology.
4) What must a person assent to (if anything) to be justified in the sight of God?
5) Is there such a thing as a non-saving faith? 
6) Are we to judge this?
7) If not, are we to allow heretics in the church, as long as they perform outwardly good deeds.
8) If someone denies that Christ comes in the flesh, would you let them into your house?

Your turn - convince ME

P.S. I am not advocating anything from this post, simply using fallacious reasoning to prove that the reasoning IS fallacious. I am not saying I believe anything necessarily from points 1-8.


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## Ravens (Apr 27, 2005)

Here's my two cents, and it ain't much.

I think its a bit tenuous to argue what God would or wouldn't do, at least if we place it in a certain time frame. I suppose this is a subjective argument, but most people on this board probably remember the time of their conversion (if there was such a definite time), the actions of God in their life, and the progressive illumination of Scripture by the Spirit long before they came to an understanding of the doctrines of grace. Some Christians might come to Reformed theology in one year, some in six, some in fifteen, some maybe longer. I suppose its passe, but the thief on the cross was one of God's elect, and God waited till the last hour of his life to reveal even the person of Christ to him.

Secondly, I would agree that a lot, though not all, of Arminian thinking is simply fuzzy and contorted. Every Christian knows that they were justified by faith; and most Arminians even speak of "God turning me around, God getting ahold of me, chasing me down, opening my eyes, etc." even if they deny the full import of those statements in their systematic understanding. So I would suppose some of them, when they argue that a man must do something, are confused, and trying to say that man actually does believe, and must believe. Which we agree with. Its just the origin and cause of the belief that is debated. I also look at how I am similar to Arminians. Most Arminians believe they must "do something" to stay saved, but I myself, when struggling with besetting sins, or even in my routine Christian life, have times of healthy questioning, and recall that a true faith naturally births good works.

I would side with Sproul when he said they were saved by a felicitous inconsistency. I'm very cautious about drawing the circle so tight that we exclude every Christian from Chrysostom to the later Melanchthon to Lewis or Zacharias who isn't a full-fledged, card carrying Calvinist.

That being said, I obviously agree that Arminianism is tragic, God-dishonoring poison, or I wouldn't be a member of this board. I just question whether we can make such statements. But perhaps I'm entirely too subjective.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 27, 2005)

It's about time to wrap up this thread and turn out the lights. Too much talking past one another, the questionable wording of the poll question, stident tones where pacific ones are meet.... It will be closed in a few hours at most, so say what you will and conclude.

This is my final contribution. There is only one gospel. We believe it is summarized in human language _thoroughly,_ and much more extensively than is "necessary" for salvation, in our Reformed Creeds. Not, I say again, in some "form" or with certain specifics that have to be agreed on when one sees spiritually for the first time.

Possessing Christ is like being shown a new car, and being handed the keys to your wheels. Arminian theology has you standing behind the thing and pushing it. Now an Arminian church has a bunch of people who are all pushing their cars around, and a bunch of people pushing *boulders* around. "Hey, push one thing, push another thing; its all good as long as you're pushing! What are you doing getting inside that thing? You think your better than us? Get out and keep pushing." This is the essence of all false religion. This is what Paul warned the Galatians about.

But if someone is really embracing the Christ of the Bible, and not some ersatz Christ, he is a "calvinist" whether he knows it or not, whether he wants to be or not. If he belongs to Christ, and he has no more than Remonstrating theology to put flesh on his faith-bones, he will get it right in glory, though he may have been starving all his earthly life like a Somali refugee. Or, to carry the previous simile along, he'll start learing how to drive, finally, in heaven.

Here's the rub: since Arminianism _is false,_ and takes away from Christ and his saving work, and detracts from God's glory, we can be certain that Satan enjoys using it to delude many people into hoping in vain. Does he also take delight in duping some into thinking they have hold of Christ, when they only have "hope" in their Calvinism? Without question he does. But there the Devil plays with fire. He works overtime to blind the intellect of a few, because they are in possession of the _very tools_ the Holy Spirit uses to convict and convince sinners. They are like the Jews of Jesus day--isolated in their ethno-communities, possessing the "oracles of God" (Rom. 3:2), and who did "search the Scriptures" knowing that they held the key to eternal life (Jn. 5:39)--who nevertheless were blind to the One of whom they testified.

Ask yourself the question: if you were duping many, many people, would you prefer to use a ruse--a false story? Or would you prefer that the plain truth was widely disseminated and believed in form, but to expend countless individual labors to redirect _each separate person's faith_ away from that to which the truth they possessed pointed? Isn't the missionary spread of the true gospel the Devil's death knell? Isn't he limited by his lack of omnipotence and omniscience? _Isn't he *bound?*_

See that Arminian over there? Maybe he's pushing a car. Maybe its a boulder. You don't know what he's pushing, because you can't see his heart. Go over there and share the value of the keys to a car.


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## LawrenceU (Apr 27, 2005)

Very well said, Bruce.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> In fact, I myself was a staunch Arminian (although i didn't read Arminius or Wesley) and most of my family, including my parents are still Arminian.
> 
> When presented with the five points of Calvinism, I immediately HATED the truth. While not being able to defend the Arminian position, after I looked at the 5 pts. of Arminianism, I knew that is what I believed my entire life (without knowing it).



I stand corrected.  BUT your comments make my point. Arminians tend to have knee-jerk, not thoughtful, reactions to Calvinism.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 27, 2005)

I have been struck with the irony of how Arminian and pietistic this discussion has been. We have tended to ignore the idea of salvation as a process (Calvinism) and discussed it as an event (Arminianism). We have focused on what must be done to "be saved," focusing on aspects of conversion (Arminianism/pietism), rather than discussing growth in knowledge and grace (Calvinism).

The other irony is that the whole thread has spun off of a question that ignores the ordo salutis (regeneration necessarily preceeding faith) and confuses regeneration with the whole process of salvation. This is not to mention the fact that the question is unanswerable because regeneration is not observable.

The final thing I would say is that we need to be careful not to add to the the Gospel in our efforts to be precise in theology. We are told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved...not quibble about about the finer points of soteriology. Nowhere does the Bible lay down the soteriologic prerequisite of an informed, mature theology. Teaching that is the job of the Church.

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by kevin.carroll]


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## Arch2k (Apr 27, 2005)

In closing this thread out, I would just like to comment again how important it is that we view saving faith as #1 a gift from God himself, bought by our Lord Jesus Christ. Our knowledge and understanding of the gospel is NOT of ourselves, nor does our salvation depend upon our own workings, it depends upon the work of Christ for us 2000 years ago. In Christ's life, he earned the grounds of salvation (his righteousness) and the means of salvation (faith), and to attribute either of these to ourselves is blasphemy of the highest order, and belief in such proves that God has not indeed granted a saving faith.

All that should only encourage us to evangelize Arminians even more, bringing not just Calvinism, but the truth that faith is a gift from God, not wrought about by ourselves, or our contribution to salvation. As the Israelites were saved by looking to the snake that was completely outside themselves, for salvation, so too must we look completely outside ourselves to Christ to save us.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." John 3:14

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD." Proverbs 17:15

May God grant us the grace to judge with a righteous judgment.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 27, 2005)

Stick a fork in it... 
We're done!
Good nite, Gracie.
<click>


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