# What is the difference between specific and generic worship?



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

In many of the discussions that come up concerning EP, the RPW and worship, there is a distinction made between specific worship and generic worship. As soon as the questions come up, out comes a list of answers from theologians and the confessions. Can anyone define these differences using the Scriptures alone? 

I am not downing the Confessions or the words of godly men, but too often we go there first before we look at the Scriptures. I need help knowing how the Scripture defines these two areas of worship.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

Before we do that - is this your understanding of the 2 types?

Specific worship = gathering as the church body in purposeful corporate worship

Generic worship = all other gatherings that include worship elements


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Before we do that - is this your understanding of the 2 types?
> 
> Specific worship = gathering as the church body in purposeful corporate worship
> 
> Generic worship = all other gatherings that include worship elements



I would agree with the first, but I would define generic worship as all worship personal, private, familyetc.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

hmm - seeking to understand - would you include corporate worship in Generic?


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

No, the only thing I can think of that would be specific worship is corporate worship, that is when the body of Christ meeting for the specific purpose of worshipping. All other forms, family, private, in my mind are generic.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

Let me add this thought--if we put all gatherings that have an element of worship into generic, then at that point when does it end? We would have to call a prayer before a church dinner specific worship.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

no, no - I agree - can we say:

generic=all other gatherings including 2 or more elements of worship

?


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

I sort of agree, but I think when you add the word "gatherings" you exclude the idea that generic worship (in my mind) is _any_ kind of worship that has not been specified as corporate public worship by the elders. In others words, I think you have to include private, personal (one on one) worship to God in the term generic worship. Put yet another way, "anything that includes at least one element of worship, gathering or personal, that is not specified as corporate public worship.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

Specific worship = gathering as the church body in purposeful corporate worship

Generic Worship = anything that includes at least one element of worship, gathering or personal, that is not specified as corporate public worship

ok?


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Specific worship = gathering as the church body in purposeful corporate worship
> 
> Generic Worship = anything that includes at least one element of worship, gathering or personal, that is not specified as corporate public worship
> 
> ok?



yes, I think that is good basis to start this discussion on. Thanks for bearing with my detailed mind.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

If so - how would you characterize this?

Acts 2:42
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> yes, I think that is good basis to start this discussion on. Thanks for bearing with my detailed mind.



no problem - I agree it is prudent to define terms. Particularly here!


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

So now the next question is. What do the Scriptures have to say about how these two types of worship are to happen? Does the Scripture actually separate these two things? If so, how? And how does the Scripture regulate that? Again, I'm not looking for commentaries or confessions, but Scripture. 

Other questions could be this? Do the Scriptures even separate these out? Or does all worship in the NT fall under one big blanket? 

I ask these questions, because I think sometimes (and I know I haven't really done this completely) we haven't answered these questions, but we are still willing to argue back and forth about worship guidelines and regulations.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> If so - how would you characterize this?
> 
> Acts 2:42
> They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.



Does this mean they did it all the time? Or that they were in the practice of doing this? I would lean toward the latter.

What I love about my church is that they have added a 30 minute fellowship time prior to the worship service. I think that fits in with this scripture.


----------



## py3ak (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't know if the question was aimed at him specifically, but I don't think that the definitions you're driving at here fit with what Mr. Winzer said in the other thread.

You'll notice there that labouring unto the Lord is given as an example of generic worship. So the definition "Generic Worship = anything that includes at least one element of worship, gathering or personal, that is not specified as corporate public worship" is not, I think going to comport with his usage or with John Murray's.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

py3ak said:


> I don't know if the question was aimed at him specifically, but I don't think that the definitions you're driving at here fit with what Mr. Winzer said in the other thread.
> 
> You'll notice there that labouring unto the Lord is given as an example of generic worship. So the definition "Generic Worship = anything that includes at least one element of worship, gathering or personal, that is not specified as corporate public worship" is not, I think going to comport with his usage or with John Murray's.



oops! did not know there was history!  I'll go review the thread.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

What does the scripture teach as generic worship? Or is there even such a thing in Scripture?


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if the question was aimed at him specifically, but I don't think that the definitions you're driving at here fit with what Mr. Winzer said in the other thread.
> ...



I started this thread specifically because I wanted to go back one step further and look at the Scripture before we started discussing what so and so says.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

Not sure about "generic worship" unless this is the rationale:

1 Corinthians 10:31
Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 7, 2008)




----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Not sure about "generic worship" unless this is the rationale:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 10:31
> Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.



I think it fits. I'm going to compile a list of whatever scriptures are brought up. I am sorry that I have to scoot off after I've started this discussion, but I'll be back later today. Thanks


----------



## py3ak (Apr 7, 2008)

Joy, I understand that the purpose of the thread was to get Biblical light on the distinction: but in order to that, people have to be talking about the same distinction. The Bible doesn't use the terms "generic" and "specific" they're labels applied to something else. But it's going to be hard for someone to provide you with Bible to back up the distinction if you've already defined it in a way that they don't think is defensible from Scripture.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Joy, I understand that the purpose of the thread was to get Biblical light on the distinction: but in order to that, people have to be talking about the same distinction. The Bible doesn't use the terms "generic" and "specific" they're labels applied to something else. But it's going to be hard for someone to provide you with Bible to back up the distinction if you've already defined it in a way that they don't think is defensible from Scripture.



You make a good point. But whether or not the terminology is Biblical, the questions are the same. Does the Bible make a clear distinction between corporate and private worship? If so what are those distinctions? 

If there is no distnction between corporate and private worship in Scripture, then do all rules apply? If there is a biblical distinction between corporate and private worship, then what rules apply to the two different groups? 

Does that help clarify? 

As I said earlier, I believe that some of this is fuzzy for a lot of us.


----------



## MW (Apr 7, 2008)

Generic worship is our whole life offered as a living sacrifice on the altar of God's mercy in Christ. Specific worship is the time we set apart in order to draw near to God as individuals, families, or congregations, in the actions prescribed by God for this purpose.


----------



## Davidius (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> You make a good point. But whether or not the terminology is Biblical, the questions are the same. Does the Bible make a clear distinction between corporate and private worship? If so what are those distinctions?
> 
> If there is no distnction between corporate and private worship in Scripture, then do all rules apply? If there is a biblical distinction between corporate and private worship, then what rules apply to the two different groups?
> 
> ...





armourbearer said:


> Generic worship is our whole life offered as a living sacrifice on the altar of God's mercy in Christ. Specific worship is the time we set apart in order to draw near to God as individuals, families, or congregations, in the actions prescribed by God for this purpose.



I don't think it's very fuzzy. JD said pretty much the same thing back in #19. I may read X theologian during my own time, but my elders can only preach on texts from the bible. When I am doing my schoolwork I am glorifying God in some way (fulfilling my secular calling with excellence), but this activity is not governed by the rules of the Regulative Principle.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

Davidius said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > You make a good point. But whether or not the terminology is Biblical, the questions are the same. Does the Bible make a clear distinction between corporate and private worship? If so what are those distinctions?
> ...



Is reading a theologian worship? Is listening to an elder preach on texts worship? Is doing your schoolwork worship? How does Scripture in the NT sort out these things? Who wrote the RPW? Is that in the Scripture? 

I am not being sarcastic, either, I really want to know the answers to these questions.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Generic worship is our whole life offered as a living sacrifice on the altar of God's mercy in Christ. Specific worship is the time we set apart in order to draw near to God as individuals, families, or congregations, in the actions prescribed by God for this purpose.



Sorry, I missed JD's post.


----------



## MW (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > Generic worship is our whole life offered as a living sacrifice on the altar of God's mercy in Christ. Specific worship is the time we set apart in order to draw near to God as individuals, families, or congregations, in the actions prescribed by God for this purpose.
> ...



Generic worship -- Rom. 12:1; 1 Cor. 10:31.
Specific worship -- 1 Cor. 11:17, 18, 20, 33; 14:23, 26; Heb. 10:23-25.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks everyone for you patience with me. 

Matthew, if I understand you correctly, you're saying there is a distinction in types of worship--the worship we have individually in our everyday lives would be one and any type of group worship would be the other? I see easily how the Scripture supports the first, but what about the second? 

I bring this up, because it seems that others would make the distinction between elder led worship (corporate worship as in the body of Christ worshipping together) as one form of worship, and all other worship would fall in the other category. 

Is my analysis correct?


----------



## Davidius (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > JBaldwin said:
> ...



They're pretty good questions. Equivocation may be causing some of the difficulty. Perhaps others on the board would castigate me, but I prefer not even to use the term "worship" when speaking of anything other than the gathered assembly of the saints officiated by the elders of the church. Well, what I mean is, we say "private worship" and "family worship" but there are some obvious differences between these and the gathering of the Church on the Lord's Day, which is why there is not one-to-one agreement in those uses of the word "worship." But anyway, since the giving of the law there have been precepts which govern the way God is to be formally approached in corporate gatherings. It was obviously appropriate for Cain to grow crops, but they were unacceptable as an offering to God. Building fires is a lot of fun, but God slew Nadab and Abihu when they offered the incorrect kind of burnt offering.

When Paul says that we do all things to God's glory, many in the modern Church have taken this to be the approbation of doing whatever we want when we gather to worship. These people have trouble comprehending that God would would make rules governing some parts of our life that do not extend to everything. The point is that nothing is entirely neutral, and that even the things which are not part of worship honor God in their own ways. This is something the Reformation recovered. The shoemaker honors God by doing what he does no less than the clergyman. I couldn't tell you how every little thing honors God, but I'm hoping that painting with a broad brush will aid your understanding.

You are, however, asking some pretty basic questions, the answers to which may perhaps be better found in past threads (i.e. discussed in more depth). There have been plenty of threads on the nature of the RPW and its relation to "the rest of life," I'm sure.


----------



## Herald (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > JBaldwin said:
> ...



Sister, I believe that all you have mentioned: reading a theologian, listening to an elder preach, doing schoolwork etc. can qualify as worship; whether general or specific. Luther said, "All of life is repentance." It is quite appropriate to say that all of life is worship. 

προσκυνέο (proskuneo) would be the most appropriate word for worship. It is used directly for worship of God.

John 4:24 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 

Proskuneo means reverence; or in John 4:24, "to do reverence." As others have said more eloquently, worship can be whatever we do to the glory of God. Some of it is ordered (i.e. Lord's Day corporate worship), while some of it is in our daily lives.


----------



## MW (Apr 7, 2008)

In the OT there is emphasis placed on the corporate gathering of God's people, and the great reverence due to the Lord in it. In the NT we see various instructions specifically related to the corporate gathering of God's people. On the basis that the Scriptures give specific instructions as to how this "coming together" is to be regulated, we conclude that "corporate worship" is a biblical principle.


----------



## JBaldwin (Apr 7, 2008)

> You are, however, asking some pretty basic questions, the answers to which may be better found in past threads (i.e. discussed in more depth). There have been plenty of threads on the nature of the RPW and its relation to "the rest of life," I'm sure.



Thank you. I realize my questions are very basic. It's not the first time I've thought through these things. However, I so often throw around the phrase "sola scriptura" and yet I am not always certain that I can answer these basic questions with just the Word of God.


----------



## Davidius (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> > You are, however, asking some pretty basic questions, the answers to which may be better found in past threads (i.e. discussed in more depth). There have been plenty of threads on the nature of the RPW and its relation to "the rest of life," I'm sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I realize my questions are very basic. It's not the first time I've thought through these things. However, I so often throw around the phrase "sola scriptura" and yet I am not always certain that I can answer these basic questions with just the Word of God.



But please don't think I was discouraging you from discussing here! 

This is a subject I thought about for a loooong time, and I definitely understand how it can make one's head spin.


----------



## DMcFadden (Apr 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Generic worship is our whole life offered as a living sacrifice on the altar of God's mercy in Christ. Specific worship is the time we set apart in order to draw near to God as individuals, families, or congregations, in the actions prescribed by God for this purpose.



Matthew,

With your brood, you probably deserve the title "Father of the Year." However, you CERTAINLY should receive the PB "Scholar of Succinctness" award.

Great summary!


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> > You are, however, asking some pretty basic questions, the answers to which may be better found in past threads (i.e. discussed in more depth). There have been plenty of threads on the nature of the RPW and its relation to "the rest of life," I'm sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I realize my questions are very basic. It's not the first time I've thought through these things. However, I so often throw around the phrase "sola scriptura" and yet I am not always certain that I can answer these basic questions with just the Word of God.



I think that is why the confession with Scriptural proofs is so important - much of the reasoning has been done, but it is good to go and examine the rationale of the divines as they work out the rationale of the Divine.


----------



## panta dokimazete (Apr 7, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> In the OT there is emphasis placed on the corporate gathering of God's people, and the great reverence due to the Lord in it. In the NT we see various instructions specifically related to the corporate gathering of God's people. On the basis that the Scriptures give specific instructions as to how this "coming together" is to be regulated, we conclude that "corporate worship" is a biblical principle.



One problem is that some folk have blurred the distinction between generic and specific worship, thus allowing or rationalizing non-commanded elements as acceptable for specific worship. Not quite the Normative principle, but certainly outside the RPW.


----------



## JohnOwen007 (Apr 14, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> In the OT there is emphasis placed on the corporate gathering of God's people, and the great reverence due to the Lord in it. In the NT we see various instructions specifically related to the corporate gathering of God's people. On the basis that the Scriptures give specific instructions as to how this "coming together" is to be regulated, we conclude that "corporate worship" is a biblical principle.



Dear Matthew, I'm still wrestling with the distinction between generic and specific worship; I can see how the distinction is made, but I'm not sure it actually arises from Scripture itself. Hence, where does the Bible say that there will only be "specific instructions" for the new covenant gathering, and no more?

Every blessing brother.


----------

