# Classical Arminians: Are there any more around that are 5-pointers?



## CDM (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes.

In a recent controversial article written by Dr. McMahon entitled "The Arminian god Is Not Worshippable", he mentioned he has never met one (classical, 5-point, Arminian) before (I apologize if I err). Many had the same experience. And most of us agreed modern day evangelicals are a mixture of Arminianism and Calvinism. 

But what about these Wesleyan/Methodists? Displayed here: http://www.imarc.cc/

The following is from their Doctrinal Standard page:

_(A) We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ , his only son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, was crucified, dead, and buried; the third day He arose again form the dead; He ascended into heaven, and site at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. 

(B) We believe that man is Totally Spiritually Corrupt, in that there is no spiritual good in man to gain heaven or favor with God, in his fallen condition. We believe in Conditional Election, that all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior has met the condition of Election, and in Unlimited Atonement, that Christ died for all men everywhere. 

(C) Furthermore, we believe that Grace can be resisted, that man my refuse the call to be saved. We believe in the Perseverance of the Saints, that the Bible teaches the possibility of falling from Grace and being eternally lost, if we do not persevere. We, therefore, believe to be erroneous the doctrine of eternal security or once saved always saved. 

(D) We believe that water baptism should be carried out by Sprinkling or Pouring as the Bible bears witness to these modes. We accept the doctrine as taught in the Bible of baby baptism. We also believe that immersion could be a Biblical but not a necessary mode of baptism. 

(E) We believe that it is a glorious privilege and an awesome responsibility to be a child of God. We believe that Christ broke the power of sin that easily besets us. Because the power of sin can has been broken, we believe that the possibility of holiness can be achieved during this life. Many say that this can be achieved through an instantaneous blessing while others differ. Therefore, IMARC agrees with Thomas Ralston when he says, "It matters but little whether this eminent state of holiness be gained by a bold, energetic, and determined exercise of faith and prayer, or by a more gradual process - whether it be instantaneous or gradual, or both the one and the other. The great matter is, with each and all of us, that we lose no time, but arise at once, and "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."* 

(F) We believe that the Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to salvation, so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. The Holy Scripture we understand to be those canonical books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church. Therefore, we believe the scripture is without error, and inspired by God Himself._

When you got the word "Arminian" in the title of your orginization along with a picture of Calvin with the words "hypocrite burning servetus", and a monkey laughing and pointing at him....you might be a Classical Arminian. 

[edit included a link to the site's "Calvin memorial"]

[Edited on 4-14-2006 by mangum]


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## biblelighthouse (Apr 14, 2006)

I myself grew up as a Nazarene/Wesleyan. My dad used to be a Nazarene preacher, and still believes that way. He REALLY looks up to John Wesley.

Wesley's theology surely is a hundred miles away from Reformed theology. 

 Thank you, Lord, for rescuing me from such erroneous doctrine!


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## fivepointcalvinist (Apr 14, 2006)

rationale behind the site:

"If you find errors, please know that IMARC printed them for those who always look for them. We try to print something for everybody!Copied (but very true)The Reminder"


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## Scot (Apr 14, 2006)

Not that I make it a habit to visit this site but from what I've looked at, I believe there are some 5 point arminians here. 

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/forum/


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## tellville (Apr 14, 2006)

I use to be a five point Arminian. I believed in consistency. Just as the L is the sticker for many 4 point Calvinist's, the P is the sticker for many 4 Point Arminians. In other words, most Arminians believe in Eternal Security and thus feel they are not Arminians. I thought this was as incredibly inconsistent as the Calvinist who denies Limited Atonement. 

I didn't think it was logicaly possible to believe in Perseverance of the Saints and not be a 5 point Calvinist. For if Perseverance of the Saints was true then that would mean there is no sin I could commit that would cause me to lose my salvation. But the only way this would be possible would be if all my sins were actually paid for on the cross. But if my sins were actually paid for on the cross, then the atonement must be a limited one. For if Christ paid for the sins of everybody in the world, then everybody would go to heaven, but the NT clearly teaches that not everybody goes to heaven. And the idea of rejecting the gift of Christ's sacrifice was dumb because then there is a Double Jeopardy being performed and thus God would be being unjust; for he would be punishing the same sin twice. And if we have a Limited Atonement, we then need Total Depravity because we can't have people accidentally choosing God who didn't have their sins paid for because then we would have Christians who are going to hell and that's dumb. And if we have Total Depravity we then must have Unconditional Election otherwise how else would God know who to atone for on the cross? And if we had Unconditional Election the we must have Irresistible Grace otherwise people who might be atoned for might never believe in Christ and thus get to go to heaven without ever having been Christians. And well, that would be dumb. Thus, as a logically consistent Arminian I had to deny Perseverance of the Saints, which put me at great odds with my denomination, the Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists, or more simply, the Southern Baptist Convention because they are hard core Eternal Securists. Ironically, I'm again at odds with my Calvinism, but my Calvinism is a lot more tolerated then my lack of belief in Eternal Security was. I could never be a missionary or a preacher without believing in Eternal Security, but I can be both while be a Calvinist (at least for now). 

And if your wondering how I could remain a consistent Arminian and not be an Open Theist, I was a hardcore Molinist aka Middle Knowledge. 

Anyway, I spent about 4 years fighting Calvinism once I had been introduced to it. I remember when I eventually gave up and decided that the Bible alone taught Calvinism and thus the Bible alone doctrine had to be rejected. So then I looked into Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, eventually settling on Eastern Orthodoxy because a) nobody writes anything against it that has any substance and b) it was not plagued with the same types of problems that RC has (For example, if I didn't want to pray to Mary, I didn't have too, because praying to Mary isn't part of the Gospel for EO. I would just be missing out on the fullness of the faith according to them). But then, as I studied Scripture more, and especially Church history, I found that it was stupid to believe in anything besides Scripture Alone, and thus, finally, after 4 hard years had to fall down on my knees, admited the errors of my ways, and realized that the Doctrines of Grace were true. Thank you Lord for showing me your grace!

That's a very undetailed short bio of my theological journey 

Anyway, all that to say that I use to be a 5 point Arminian!


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## tdowns (Apr 14, 2006)

I love free flow writing.....


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## CDM (Apr 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by tellville_
> I use to be a five point Arminian. I believed in consistency. Just as the L is the sticker for many 4 point Calvinist's, the P is the sticker for many 4 Point Arminians. In other words, most Arminians believe in Eternal Security and thus feel they are not Arminians. I thought this was as incredibly inconsistent as the Calvinist who denies Limited Atonement.
> 
> I didn't think it was logicaly possible to believe in Perseverance of the Saints and not be a 5 point Calvinist. For if Perseverance of the Saints was true then that would mean there is no sin I could commit that would cause me to lose my salvation. But the only way this would be possible would be if all my sins were actually paid for on the cross. But if my sins were actually paid for on the cross, then the atonement must be a limited one. For if Christ paid for the sins of everybody in the world, then everybody would go to heaven, but the NT clearly teaches that not everybody goes to heaven. And the idea of rejecting the gift of Christ's sacrifice was dumb because then there is a Double Jeopardy being performed and thus God would be being unjust; for he would be punishing the same sin twice. And if we have a Limited Atonement, we then need Total Depravity because we can't have people accidentally choosing God who didn't have their sins paid for because then we would have Christians who are going to hell and that's dumb. And if we have Total Depravity we then must have Unconditional Election otherwise how else would God know who to atone for on the cross? And if we had Unconditional Election the we must have Irresistible Grace otherwise people who might be atoned for might never believe in Christ and thus get to go to heaven without ever having been Christians. And well, that would be dumb. Thus, as a logically consistent Arminian I had to deny Perseverance of the Saints, which put me at great odds with my denomination, the Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists, or more simply, the Southern Baptist Convention because they are hard core Eternal Securists. Ironically, I'm again at odds with my Calvinism, but my Calvinism is a lot more tolerated then my lack of belief in Eternal Security was. I could never be a missionary or a preacher without believing in Eternal Security, but I can be both while be a Calvinist (at least for now).
> ...



Wow, that's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 15, 2006)

I think Wesleyan, Nazarene and other Arminian churches could be described as 5 point Arminians in the sense that they deny perseverance. Ditto for their charismatic cousins in the Assembly of God and various other pentecostals. 

One thing that's not consistent with many Arminians is that they often hold to substitutionary atonement, which within an Arminian framework logically leads to universalism.


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## Magma2 (Apr 17, 2006)

> One thing that's not consistent with many Arminians is that they often hold to substitutionary atonement, which within an Arminian framework logically leads to universalism.



Can you explain what you mean and how the two are connected? 

Thanks.


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 17, 2006)

Can one be a five-point Arminian and true believer at the same time?


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## tellville (Apr 18, 2006)

First, thanks Trevor and Chris for your comments! 

Second, Sean, I think my first post addressed why a subsitutionary atonement in an Arminian system can (does) lead to universalism. 

Third, Brandon, do you think I was not a true beleiver back when I was a 5-point Arminian? Feel free to say no, I am just curious at what you are trying to get at with the question.


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## MeanieCalvinist (Apr 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by mangum_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by tellville_
> ...


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 18, 2006)

It is not a question that I had a concrete answer to  I was just curious as to what others thought. I haven't been Reformed for more than a year and I believe that I was saved before then.

I guess here is something to ponder. To be logically consistant, Arminians are dangerously close (I believe they are) open theists. This is blatant heresy. Can one be logically inconsistant and still saved? I believe the answer is yes. But can one hold to consistant 5 point Arminianism, with all that it entails, throughout their lifetime and truly be a believer? I am a little unclear on that point. I believe this type of soteriology is in lock-step with Rome.

I am sure the more intelligent members of the board could expound and correct my statements. I am wrestling with the issue and am leaning towards saying consistant five point arminians do not believe in salvation by grace through faith. Just my  I am very open to correction and refining of my position.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Magma2_
> 
> 
> > One thing that's not consistent with many Arminians is that they often hold to substitutionary atonement, which within an Arminian framework logically leads to universalism.
> ...



Christ purchased salvation by his death on the Cross (implication, among many others, is that they go to "heaven").
Christ died for all.
Therefore, all go to heaven.


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