# Baptists and Alcohol



## JM

Have Baptist, for the most part, always been teetotalers?


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## JM

I know, I'm just digging a little, looking for the history behind the move toward the temperance movement.


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## KMK

JM said:


> I know, I'm just digging a little, looking for the history behind the move toward the temperance movement.



All the research that I have done into the temperance movement leads me to believe that it was primarily a Methodist movement. Including Dr. Welch, who invented grape juice so that the church would no longer have to sin in taking wine with communion.


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## DMcFadden

JM said:


> Have Baptist, for the most part, always been teetotalers?



Just the saved ones. 

Actually, it was a Baptist who invented bourbon. Elijah Craig, minister, entrepreneur, and founder of the Baptist-related Georgetown College in Kentucky is widely credited with creating the official spirit of the Bluegrass State around 1789. Today, Kentucky's Heaven Hill Distillery sells a high-end single-barrel bourbon named after Craig.

Most historians trace the teetotaling movement to the 1830s and problems with alcohol abuse on the frontier. The Baptists joined with the Methodists and theologically liberal city folks to control the abuses.

Today, many Baptists partake of the psychoactive drug, CH3CH2OH, with its characteristic pattern of affecting the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors, to produce a depressant (neurochemical inhibitory) effect. Even though I came from the liberal ABC, my alcohol inhibitions are pretty strong, primarily due to pervasive alcoholism in the extended families of both my wife and myself.

Actually, truth be told, Baptists don't convert to Presbyterianism for the views on baptism. It's the permission to drink alcohol that draws them like moths to the light.


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## Herald

I don't know the history behind the Baptist aversion to alcohol but I must admit, I get a good belly laugh when I hear all the arguments that Jesus drank unfermented grape juice.


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## HaigLaw

DMcFadden said:


> Actually, truth be told, Baptists don't convert to Presbyterianism for the views on baptism. It's the permission to drink alcohol that draws them like moths to the light.



I didn't know how much of that was tongue in cheek, but I enjoyed it all, especially the above-quoted part.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

It is worth noting that the RPCNA was very active during the 19th century in regards to the temperance movement.


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## pilgrim3970

The Reformed Baptist congregation my wife and I used to worship with split the difference and had both wine and grape juice at communion. 

I grew up in a household where alchohol was a no-no (Assemblies of God - yup, I've had quite a journey). Imagine my mild surprise the first time I went to synod as a Reformed Episcopalian and there was an open bar during the banquet which was held the last night!


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## blhowes

JM said:


> Have Baptist, for the most part, always been teetotalers?


For the most part, Baptists have been teetotalers...A sobering thought (  ) (sorry, couldn't resist).


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## Reformed Covenanter

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> It is worth noting that the RPCNA was very active during the 19th century in regards to the temperance movement.



How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Oh yes, keep in mind that Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster is an officially total abstinence denomination.


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## A5pointer

Q: why is it unwise to take only one baptist fishing with you? A: If you take only one, he will drink all your beer. You need at least two to have the beer all to yourself.


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## pilgrim3970

blhowes said:


> JM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have Baptist, for the most part, always been teetotalers?
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part, Baptists have been teetotalers...A sobering thought (  ) (sorry, couldn't resist).
Click to expand...


It would you are in a humourous spirit this morning!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is worth noting that the RPCNA was very active during the 19th century in regards to the temperance movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.
Click to expand...


Also thankfully the RPCNA has recently made the issue one of Christian Liberty.


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## blhowes

Isn't being a teetotaler a good thing? I would think that for most Christians, unless you're a heavy drinker, abstaining from drinking alcohol is not too difficult to do. Having that under control, it frees you up to focus on correcting other sinful behaviors, like smoking cigars and other worldly vices.


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## KMK

A5pointer said:


> Q: why is it unwise to take only one baptist fishing with you? A: If you take only one, he will drink all your beer. You need at least two to have the beer all to yourself.





That one deserves a double thanks!

BTW, from the research I have done, it appears that prohibition grew out of the feminist movement as well. 

Personally, I think prohibition as it is practiced in the SBC is very dangerous. It sends the message that we can make ourselves more or less righteous by what we put in our mouth.


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## raekwon

blhowes said:


> Isn't being a teetotaler a good thing? I would think that for most Christians, unless you're a heavy drinker, abstaining from drinking alcohol is not too difficult to do. Having that under control, it frees you up to focus on correcting other sinful behaviors, like smoking cigars and other worldly vices.



Since when is smoking cigars (necessarily) a sinful behavior or a worldly vice?


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## Ivan

DMcFadden said:


> JM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, many Baptists partake of the psychoactive drug, CH3CH2OH, with its characteristic pattern of affecting the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors, to produce a depressant (neurochemical inhibitory) effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethanol? How so?
Click to expand...


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## caddy

raekwon said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't being a teetotaler a good thing? I would think that for most Christians, unless you're a heavy drinker, abstaining from drinking alcohol is not too difficult to do. Having that under control, it frees you up to focus on correcting other sinful behaviors, like smoking cigars and other worldly vices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when is smoking cigars (necessarily) a sinful behavior or a worldly vice?
Click to expand...

 
I think Bob meant to print his text in sarcastic Red raekwon.... : )


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## blhowes

raekwon said:


> Since when is smoking cigars (necessarily) a sinful behavior or a worldly vice?


Sorry, comment was made TIC (tongue-in-cheek). Just trying to "stir the pot" a tad, and see if I could "get you guys going". 

Go enjoy your cigar,

Bob


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## raekwon

blhowes said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since when is smoking cigars (necessarily) a sinful behavior or a worldly vice?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, comment was made TIC (tongue-in-cheek). Just trying to "stir the pot" a tad, and see if I could "get you guys going".
> 
> Go enjoy your cigar,
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...


My sarcasm detector is on the fritz this morning.


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## blhowes

raekwon said:


> My sarcasm detector is on the fritz this morning.


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## tcalbrecht

Beverage alcohol was one of the issues that helped split the fledgling Presbyterian Church OF America (aka OPC) back in the '30s.


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## Stephen

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is worth noting that the RPCNA was very active during the 19th century in regards to the temperance movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.
Click to expand...



Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
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> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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> 
> 
> It is worth noting that the RPCNA was very active during the 19th century in regards to the temperance movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
Click to expand...


No beer comes near.


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## pilgrim3970

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
> 
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> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> 
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> How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.
> 
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> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No beer comes near.
Click to expand...


As much as I like Guiness, I'd have to say that Spaten runs a close second in my book.


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## DMcFadden

Ivan said:


> DMcFadden said:
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> 
> 
> 
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> JM said:
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> 
> 
> Today, many Baptists partake of the psychoactive drug, CH3CH2OH, with its characteristic pattern of affecting the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors, to produce a depressant (neurochemical inhibitory) effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethanol? How so?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Judging by the habits of some of my friends out here in CA, I observe that the old taboo against drinking alcohol as a beverage is dropping away. As a child, we used to recite the church covenant on communion Sunday monthly with its line about "refraining from the use of alcohol as a beverage."
> 
> On my last Israel trip a So. Cal. Baptist pastor uncorked a bottle of wine at his dinner table in front of a couple dozen of his laypeople. 40 years ago that would have been unheard of, even out here.
> 
> My practice is governed by family proclivities towards alcoholism and the fact that I was able to "justify"/ignore putting on 126 lbs in the last 13 years. Obviously, my level of sanctification is not well suited for the consumption of addictive substances like food, drink, and PB.
Click to expand...


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## wallingj

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> How sad; the RPCI has many teetootlers, but it was never a requirement like it was in the RPCNA...thankfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No beer comes near.
Click to expand...

 A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.


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## Reformed Covenanter

wallingj said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> Stephen said:
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> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
> 
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> No beer comes near.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
> 2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.
Click to expand...


To be perfectly honest, I have no idea. But I don't see any reason why the Guiness you get in the USA would be any worse than what we have.


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## moral necessity

wallingj said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> Stephen said:
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> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No beer comes near.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
> 2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.
Click to expand...


My uncle was in the Air Force in England/Ireland in the late 60's/early 70's. He said the Guinness there on tap came out in globs that would flop into your glass, not like the watered-down version we have in the states. I usually use Bass Ale for the half/half. I'll have to try it with the Harps. Thanks for the tip!


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## DavidinKnoxville

Daniel Ritchie said:


> wallingj said:
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> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> No beer comes near.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
> 2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To be perfectly honest, I have no idea. But I don't see any reason why the Guiness you get in the USA would be any worse than what we have.
Click to expand...


Young's Double Chocolate Stout blows Guiness out of the water.


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## wallingj

moral necessity said:


> wallingj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> No beer comes near.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
> 2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My uncle was in the Air Force in England/Ireland in the late 60's/early 70's. He said the Guinness there on tap came out in globs that would flop into your glass, not like the watered-down version we have in the states. I usually use Bass Ale for the half/half. I'll have to try it with the Harps. Thanks for the tip!
Click to expand...

I was told using an ale makes it a dark and tan, or do I have this backwards?


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## blhowes

I don't know offhand where the verses are, but there are verses that talk about wine (and other alcoholic beverages?) being a gift from God to be enjoyed. Since its a gift from God, does this verse apply to the use of the gift?Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;​


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## Zenas

Disregard, should have read further down.


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## ericfromcowtown

I enjoy a pint of good beer or a glass of wine as well. Unfortunately, in our society, having a drink and drunkeness often go hand-in-hand, and drunkeness is a sin. Abstaining entirely because excess is sin is a little like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, though, in my opinion.

My wife was raised Pentecostal, where booze was a no-no. Half the congregation would enjoy a glass of wine on a Saturday night, and then sit through a topical sermon on Sunday morning about the evils of wine. When we began courting, we started to attend a PCA church. At our very first Sunday service, the pastor was preaching on Jesus' first miracle, turning the water into wine at the wedding banquet. As means of illustration, the pastor mentioned that he made wine as a hobby and brought in one of the glass jars that he uses. It didn't take long until my fiance was poking me in the shoulder and wispering "he makes his own wine!!"


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## Kim G

blhowes said:


> I don't know offhand where the verses are, but there are verses that talk about wine (and other alcoholic beverages?) being a gift from God to be enjoyed. Since its a gift from God, does this verse apply to the use of the gift?Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;​



Ps. 104:14-15: “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and *wine to gladden the heart of man*, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.” 

Judges 9:13: “But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my *wine that cheers God and men *and go hold sway over the trees?’”

Ecclesiastes 10:19: “Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and *wine makes life merry*, and money is the answer to everything.”

Zechariah 10:7: “Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and *their hearts shall be glad as with wine*. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD.”

There are dozens of positive Biblical references relating to wine (I have an excel chart on another computer that details them). I think it's very important to view drinking as "unto the Lord," so as to have a proper motivation and as a hedge from abuse.


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## AV1611

North Jersey Baptist said:


> I get a good belly laugh when I hear all the arguments that Jesus drank unfermented grape juice.



I just can't believe I actually thought that once


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## AV1611

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen, brother. Pass the guiness.
> 
> 
> 
> No beer comes near.
Click to expand...


Take that back now! 

Old Speckled Hen a traditional English cask ale beer.


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## moral necessity

wallingj said:


> moral necessity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallingj said:
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of questions from to our friend across the Pond. 1st Is the Guiness we get in the states the same caliber as the one you are able to purchase?
> 2nd. I read once the Guiness that is now produced is not the same as the one that was once produced in Ireland, I might be wrong but is Guiness now brewed in England? Inquiring minds want to know? Also I like a half and half with Harps Lager.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My uncle was in the Air Force in England/Ireland in the late 60's/early 70's. He said the Guinness there on tap came out in globs that would flop into your glass, not like the watered-down version we have in the states. I usually use Bass Ale for the half/half. I'll have to try it with the Harps. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was told using an ale makes it a dark and tan, or do I have this backwards?
Click to expand...


You're right. A Black and Tan is what I've heard it called. I assumed half/half was the same, but, after thinking about it being called such, it makes sense you were speaking of something different. I look forward to trying it!

...by the way, what time is it?


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## blhowes

Kim G said:


> There are dozens of positive Biblical references relating to wine (I have an excel chart on another computer that details them). I think it's very important to view drinking as "unto the Lord," so as to have a proper motivation and as a hedge from abuse.


Thanks for finding some of the verses.



Kim G said:


> Ps. 104:14-15: “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and *wine to gladden the heart of man*, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.”


Since the Bible says God causes the grass to grow...and wine to gladden the heart of man, does that mean therefore that anything alcoholic is ok to drink?



Kim G said:


> Judges 9:13: “But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my *wine that cheers God and men *and go hold sway over the trees?’”


How does wine cheer God?


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## wallingj

moral necessity said:


> wallingj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moral necessity said:
> 
> 
> 
> My uncle was in the Air Force in England/Ireland in the late 60's/early 70's. He said the Guinness there on tap came out in globs that would flop into your glass, not like the watered-down version we have in the states. I usually use Bass Ale for the half/half. I'll have to try it with the Harps. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> 
> 
> I was told using an ale makes it a dark and tan, or do I have this backwards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right. A Black and Tan is what I've heard it called. I assumed half/half was the same, but, after thinking about it being called such, it makes sense you were speaking of something different. I look forward to trying it!
> 
> ...by the way, what time is it?
Click to expand...

1348, and yes Black and Tan not Dark and Tan


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## Kim G

blhowes said:


> Since the Bible says God causes the grass to grow...and wine to gladden the heart of man, does that mean therefore that anything alcoholic is ok to drink?
> 
> How does wine cheer God?



You'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable than myself to get an answer here.  I know that strong drink is also mentioned in multiple positive/neutral contexts, which would, I assume, broaden the definition of which alcoholic drinks are acceptable.

I'm not so sure that the Bible makes much of a distinction between "alcoholic" and "non-alcoholic" drinks like we do, anyway. Does the presence of alcohol in a grape drink make it okay ("wine"), while the presence of alcohol in a corn drink or mixed drink make it unacceptable? God's prohibitions are for over-indulgence in alcoholic drinks, food, etc.

Just my


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## Kim G

joshua said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Bible says God causes the grass to grow...and wine to gladden the heart of man, does that mean therefore that anything alcoholic is ok to drink?
> 
> 
> 
> Not merely _since_, but due to the fact that alcohol, in and of itself, is not an evil. Thus, it could be classified as something that is _indifferent_. Now, that doesn't mean it's okay for everybody without exception, because some are prone to mastery thereby.
Click to expand...


That's what I meant to say.


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## cih1355

Some people think that drinking alcohol is sin because they believe that the purpose of drinking alcohol is to get drunk. I have talked with those kinds of people before and when I said that a person's reason for drinking alcohol can be something other than just to get drunk, they can't believe it.


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## knowntoGod

*my paper*

I wrote a paper on Baptists and alcohol while in seminary. It has info on how Baptists used to consider alcohol perfectly fine, how the Temperance movement started, etc. You can read it here:
http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html


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