# Questions about Plato's philosophy



## cih1355 (Jan 19, 2009)

How is Plato's view of the soul different from what the Bible says about man's soul?

How would you respond to Plato's teaching that learning is a kind of recollection?


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## CharlieJ (Jan 19, 2009)

cih1355 said:


> How would you respond to Plato's teaching that learning is a kind of recollection?



On this one, I would quite simply say that its premise is false. Plato wondered about reincarnation. In between lives in this world, when the soul was in the world of forms, it had a knowledge of those forms. The trauma of birth, however, causes us to forget that knowledge. Having observed the powers of deductive logic, Plato theorized that we learn new particulars through dim recollection of the world of forms.

As a Christian, we reject pre-existence of the soul (unless you're Origen). Also, granting the reincarnation and world of forms idea, there is no proof nor obvious rationale for causing us to forget that. Beyond that, there is no obvious reason why we would at various points recall that knowledge.


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## larryjf (Jan 19, 2009)

cih1355 said:


> How would you respond to Plato's teaching that learning is a kind of recollection?



Simply because he could show that knowledge can be gained through questioning doesn't mean that the same knowledge is innate.
Rather than showing that learning is recollection he introduced a different style of teaching.

One might even say that his method was seminal to the catechism.


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## Vytautas (Jan 28, 2009)

larryjf said:


> Simply because he could show that knowledge can be gained through questioning doesn't mean that the same knowledge is innate.
> Rather than showing that learning is recollection he introduced a different style of teaching.
> 
> One might even say that his method was seminal to the catechism.



He proved that knowledge is gained by recollection, but he did not prove his dialectic method. So if knowledge is gained by recollection, then it is innate.


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## larryjf (Jan 28, 2009)

Vytautas said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> > Simply because he could show that knowledge can be gained through questioning doesn't mean that the same knowledge is innate.
> ...



I disagree that he proved that knowledge is gained by recollection. I think he proved that knowledge can be taught through questioning. I think that's an important distinction.


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## Vytautas (Jan 31, 2009)

larryjf said:


> I disagree that he proved that knowledge is gained by recollection. I think he proved that knowledge can be taught through questioning. I think that's an important distinction.



Plato proved knowledge is recollection in the Phaedo, but where did he prove that knowledge can be taught through questioning?


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## larryjf (Jan 31, 2009)

Vytautas said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree that he proved that knowledge is gained by recollection. I think he proved that knowledge can be taught through questioning. I think that's an important distinction.
> ...



How did he prove knowledge is a recollection? It was by asking questions. My point is that this doesn't necessarily prove knowledge is a recollection, i believe it proves knowledge can be learned through a proper line of questioning.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 31, 2009)

cih1355 said:


> How is Plato's view of the soul different from what the Bible says about man's soul?
> 
> How would you respond to Plato's teaching that learning is a kind of recollection?



Plato believed the soul was eternal and indestructible. He also had a dual nature of reality. The realm of ideas was the real while the physical was a "receptacle" of those ideals.

The physical world was innately "bad" or defective compared to the ideal. In fact, the physical was seen as the "prison house" of the soul and kept us from understanding things as they really are.

The notion of innate ideas ties to Plato's belief that we all are connected to this ideal world and that we might be able to break out of the cave in which we don't see things as they really are but my be able to recollect things if we contemplate them enough.

Platonic thought gave rise to Gnosticism in the early Chuch in various forms: Docetists, Gnostics, Marcionites, Montanists, etc. Fundamentally, they all viewed "flesh" or created things as inherently bad and that the escape from the physical order was the solution for unrighteousness. You see its fingerprints even today in the common view that the ascetic life is somehow more spiritual or that we don't glorify God in our labor but only in "mission activity". We even see Gnostic thinking in the idea that things like alcohol, tobacco, or playing cards are things wicked in themselves and turn "good" people into bad people by their mere use of them.

In short, the main defect to the Platonic view of the soul is that it is good except when it comes into contact with the physical.

The Christian view of the soul is that a human is a _person_: body and soul. We were created, body and soul, _good_ and in the image of God. Our flesh is not _innately_ bad but is, in fact, fallen with our souls. Our problem is ethical and our souls are not redeemed by avoiding things _outside_ that corrupt us but by the conversion of our inward man, which will eventually lead to the redemption of our whole person in the Resurrection.


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## Vytautas (Feb 2, 2009)

larryjf said:


> How did he prove knowledge is a recollection? It was by asking questions. My point is that this doesn't necessarily prove knowledge is a recollection, i believe it proves knowledge can be learned through a proper line of questioning.



Through a line of questions, Plato showed to Simmias that the idea of equality did not come from looking at equal pieces of wood or stone because they are imperfect copies of the Equal. The above proves that some knowledge can be learned though questions, but I am not sure where Plato specifically proves that all knowledge is gained by means of asking proper quesions. Either knowledge of equality comes from observation of equal things, or by recalling the Equal, which is the eternal and unchangable idea of equality. It is not by looking at rocks and stuff, so...


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