# My denominational rules



## LeeJUk (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey so as I said I'm hoping to become a minister and basically I'm here to ask your guys opinion on something.

Now my denomination is quite good depending on the minister, it's different every church you go to basically, some are really liberal and some are really fundamentalists however they take on women reverends.

So as a minister the way I understand it is this, I need to agree to the Westminster confession at least publically(dont think a lot of people do practically but I will be), I need to agree to infant baptism and I need to agree or at least tolerate women reverends. However if a minister doesn't like a part of the confession they are allowed to basically change it or ignore it in their personal ministry. The same with other doctrinal matters that aren't central I think. So really you get 2 polar views like I said, liberals and fundamentalists floating around.


So should this last point of having to hide my view/change my view that I don't believe women should be reverends be a cause of me throwing out the entire denomination for ministry? Am I required to do that from a biblical perspective? Everything else I'm fine in the denomination.


Thanks


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## ADKing (Mar 5, 2009)

How much have you studied the history of the Scottish church? This may be an enlightening thing for you to do in answering the question. There have been numerous battles in the Church of Scotland in the past leading to various groups departing and claiming to be the true continuing Church of Scotland. The CoS has historically taken a very compromised stance in the last few centuries. Although the Westminster Confession is still nominally the confession of the church, as you noted, it has little effect of many congregations and little effect on the church in its broader courts. My personal advice to you, is if you are sincere in seeking to be a biblical minister, you should seek out one of the superb denominations that currently exist in Scotland (such as the Free Church of Scotland continuing or the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland). In any case, I highly suggest doing a bit of reading on Scottish church history which is a most edifying endeavor!


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## OPC'n (Mar 5, 2009)

Find a different denomination! It is absolutely wrong for women to be reverends! Besides, the WCF doesn't hold to them being reverends so you wouldn't be holding to the WCF if you stayed in that denomination. Staying there as a pastor would show your support in this nonsense.


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## Josiah (Mar 5, 2009)

> you should seek out one of the superb denominations that currently exist in Scotland (such as the Free Church of Scotland continuing or the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland).



What about the Free Church of Scottland?


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## ADKing (Mar 5, 2009)

Josiah said:


> > you should seek out one of the superb denominations that currently exist in Scotland (such as the Free Church of Scotland continuing or the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland).
> 
> 
> 
> What about the Free Church of Scottland?



There are undoubtedly good brothers in the Free Church. However, following the division of 2000, my own biases lie closer to the continuing body as a denomination.


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## LeeJUk (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm really at a loss as to what to do.

I mean it is possible to be a biblical minister in the church. Like I said there are 2 polar opposites in the denomination, and right now I'm so deeply involved in my current church and with my CofS minister who is giving me so much help into the ministry, I doubt I can leave.

I know nothing about the free churches in the slightest and to leave behind these months of getting involved in this church, with the minister and his family whom I love to bits, my brothers and sisters in Christ here and getting baptised and added to the membership of the denomination. 

To what? run to another denomination that will have some unbiblical things like all denominations on some level do as not one denomination on earth is perfect. Without God strongly moving I can't go and leave with no idea where to go uncertain if it's even his will that I leave.


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## DonP (Mar 5, 2009)

Are you willing to preach against the error of women in office? 

Would you discipline a woman who wanted to go into office in your church? 

then you would need to immediately bring charges against any minister or presbytery who allows it. 

In fact you might want to bring charges against them now. Let them know someone is awake and wants to obey God and not follow the world, in their church. 

You may lose as they have decided they really don't hold to the Confession anyway and can take exceptions. 

But it would be a good lesson in presbyterian govt for you.

How can two walk together except they be agreed? Will you serve on presbytery boards with her? Will you listen to her speak in church and have authority over men? 

I think many women are smarter, more loving, more spiritual etc than many men. HAs nothing to do with ability. Obedience. 

2 Cor 6:17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." NKJV

You won't be the first. 
And with your convictions, if you could stay with them, why bother to be a minister??

in His service,


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## N. Eshelman (Mar 5, 2009)

LeeJUk said:


> I'm really at a loss as to what to do.
> 
> I mean it is possible to be a biblical minister in the church. Like I said there are 2 polar opposites in the denomination, and right now I'm so deeply involved in my current church and with my CofS minister who is giving me so much help into the ministry, I doubt I can leave.
> 
> ...



If your conscience will not allow you to leave- do not let others talk you into leaving. If more people stayed and fought in the historical churches, then maybe they would not be in the positions they are in now. The creme was moved to another (much smaller) crop thus leaving the old behind. 

My conscience would not allow me to stay, but I try to be sensitive to those who would- like John Gerstner, in the USA Church. 

If you leave, be convinced 100% that it is what God is calling you to do. Otherwise, STAY AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT, BROTHER!


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## LeeJUk (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for your advice, and no I won't be leaving. However I think if I take to the pulpit God willing I'll be preaching on the preachers in this denomination who go easy on sin and don't preach Christ Crucified...first.


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## Scott1 (Mar 5, 2009)

What are the vows you are required to take? (Can you post them)?


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## Hippo (Mar 5, 2009)

ADKing said:


> Josiah said:
> 
> 
> > > you should seek out one of the superb denominations that currently exist in Scotland (such as the Free Church of Scotland continuing or the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland).
> ...



And mine to the Free Church rather than the break away body  

What happened is all history now and I hope that we all wish well to both denominations.


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## LeeJUk (Mar 5, 2009)

You need to agree to the westminister confession (but on some parts not concerning to the main core of the Christian faith (gospel, faith and repentance, trinity, other core teachings of the bible I would think) there is some grey area there where you can perhaps not agree with predestination as outlined in the WCF, the pope maybe aint the anti-Christ to you etc...)

You need to agree to the apostles creed 

You need to agree that the bible is the word of God and you will faithfully serve your charge etc... for the glory of God

I've been to an ordaination service and you don't need to agree to infant baptism in there nor do you need to take any vow relating to women reverends.

However when you go to get interviewed in the early stages of the process of getting taken on as a ministry candidate as far as I know you get asked about your views on it and if your gonna have a problem with it in practice (obviously because they have already got a load of women rev.'s you can't preach against that without getting shunned) then i think they reject you as a candidate.


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## Jon 316 (Mar 5, 2009)

A note to people on the board. Be careful about advising people to leave a church, on the basis of doctrinal conflict, when you do not know their context. 

Lee, I think you are wise to remain and see out your commitments. Who knows, in a few years when it comes time the Lord may take you in a different direction. On the other hand he may continue to take you in that direction. There are many good men of God in the CofS, and many of God's people who need true and godly ministers to enter the pastorate and feed them pure milk and the meat of the Word. 

God will lead you brother. I have found there is no 'perfect' denomination, all are tainted by human sin and compromise to some extent or other.


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## TimV (Mar 5, 2009)

Great post, Pastor Nathan.


LeeJUk, you do need to know that if you do follow what you think your conscience is telling you, you are in for a really big fight. For your sake, I hope your family and social relationships are very stable. As in stable like a rock. Otherwise you will suffer greatly.

Best to you!


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## Hippo (Mar 5, 2009)

TimV said:


> Great post, Pastor Nathan.
> 
> 
> LeeJUk, you do need to know that if you do follow what you think your conscience is telling you, you are in for a really big fight. For your sake, I hope your family and social relationships are very stable. As in stable like a rock. Otherwise you will suffer greatly.
> ...



The great J Gresham Machen is a fine example, he had no desire to leave his denomination but was expelled when he refused to compromise the Gospel.


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## LeeJUk (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks a lot for all the advice and care .


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## py3ak (Mar 5, 2009)

If you will not be ordained without agreeing to the ordination of women, then that seems a very simple test.

Can you agree to the ordination of women? If not, you can't expect a _ministerial_ future in your denomination. If so, well, I guess there's some additional study to be done.  Perhaps Knox, _First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women_ would be a historically sound place to start.


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## Hamalas (Mar 5, 2009)

I'll leave the advice to the wiser men on this board, but I'm praying for you.


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## lynnie (Mar 5, 2009)

Over here in the PCA, the presbytery, which is composed of all the teaching elders (pastors) in a geographic area, has authority over the local church pastor should he preach error and not repent, or fall into some major character sin (sex, money). The presbytery can remove a pastor. And if something is really big and serious the General Assembly can remove a pastor(or entire presbytery). 

I don't know what your denominational structure is like, but if it is the same as mine and there are women pastors in the presbytery and on the GA, then you as a man are effectively submitting yourself to women as your spiritual authority. Do you want to do that? Do you think that in our fallen and imperfect world that is something you are willing to live with, or is it unacceptable?


We used to be in a Calvinist Baptist church where the church was in a denomination strictly for administrative things like pensions, health insurance, etc. The local elders ruled and the denomination had ZERO authority over a church, even if it strayed into whacko doctrine. The denominational affiliation was not authoritative at all. But I would doubt your church is like that if it is Presbyterian.

So I guess you have to decide how you view submission to authority, and find out what is involved and if you can submit. I personally would run as fast as I can the other way, and I'm a woman, I like women, I'm not a woman hater, but I could never do it.

May the Lord lead brother. You desire a good thing!!!


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## Kevin (Mar 5, 2009)

Lee, here in Canada the PCC would allow a state of peaceful co-existence for many years. Some presbt. would ordain women, some would not.

However once the feminist party had the votes they force all new ministers to *participate* in the ordination of a woman. This lead to a large group leaving the church. Those conservatives that stayed have made some sort of peace with themselves over the issue & state that they are in the PCC for the greater good. They may be correct. However my conscience would not allow me to participate, so for me it is no option. I think if there had remained a state of toleration I could exist in that enviroment, so long as my own presbytry was sound.


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## ADKing (Mar 5, 2009)

Hippo said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > Great post, Pastor Nathan.
> ...



The situation with the CoS is different. Starting with its refusal to own the covenants in 1689 it forced the Covenanters to remain outside. Then there were several secessions forming the Secession Church and the Free Church (1843). In each of these cases the godly have already paved the way. 

I am sorry if my post came across as "get out now". I do not know your situation and do not at all desire you to act hastily. I was merely answering from the perspective of whether it was a wise idea to pursue ministry in the CoS with reformed convictions in the presence of much sounder Presbyterian denominations in your country.

There comes a point (when we can probably disagree about) when a church has been on the wrong side of issues enough times that the hope of reforming it is optimistic at best. The trajectory of the CoS has (in my opinion) been going in a bad direction for a long time while there are smaller but very faithful continuing bodies that would be much strengthened by the accession of godly men. 

All this having been said, I am not encouraging rash or hasty separation, just items for thought.


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## toddpedlar (Mar 5, 2009)

I can't tell you what to do, of course, nor would you want me to. However, in a presbyterian body, you submit to the elders who are in the presbytery with you. This means submitting to the women elders, and to their rule, and with it, an implicit acceptance of and endorsement of them as proper Biblical elders. 

I could never do such a thing, because to do so would be to lie. Let your own conscience be your judge. Just be aware of what your accepting ordination in that body says.


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## Craig (Mar 5, 2009)

I would subscribe to the Westminster Confession.

If they ask you to affirm women in leadership roles, let them know you are unable to as that would be a contradiction.

I'm not pastor...so I'm not going to tell you that you ought to leave. I would encourage you to be honest, forthright, and unequivocal when you are being considered for ordination. If you aren't, you're not leading...you're following.


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Mar 6, 2009)

Many have given good advice already but let me add a couple of things. First off, I did not belong to the Church of Scotland. I was a member of the Free Church of Scotland until I joined the PCA in 2005. If I still lived in Scotland I would still be a member of the FCS. However, I do have some friends that have or do belong to the C of S. As far as I am aware with the current rules in the C of S you would not get beyond selection school unless you agree to ordain women elders/pastors. I think that there may even be questions relating to ordaining homosexuals, though on that I can't be as certain. 
Without a doubt there are good C of S congregations and excellent people in her midst. Many congregations will not ordain women elders, though I think almost every presbytery has women pastors or elders within it.
Obviously speak to your own pastor. Try also to get in touch with some of the reformed types in the C of S. In Glasgow the Tron, Gardner Street and Sandyford Henderson would be good places to start.
However, even supposing you made it all the way through to becoming a C of S minister how do you think you would cope with having to evangelize your congregation, your presbytery members, etc? I have heard some horror stories from C of S guys regarding this. What about having elders on your session who know nothing of the new birth? Who oppose your proclaiming the gospel? These are real issues and can be very difficult to handle.
I am excited about your call to vocational ministry and may God continue to confirm that call to you and give you exceedingly great wisdom as you pursue that.


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## Duncan (Mar 6, 2009)

I follow your walk with interest here on PB Lee. It is a joy to read of the Lord's leading in your life, be assured I do pray for you. I remember many years ago having to leave a church it being a very hard thing to do. I pray the Lord will guide you, it would be so easy for me or others to suggest you leave your present church. Be assured you would receive a very warm welcome in any number of the Free churches already mentioned, but since you at the moment anyway wish to remain within the COS may God give you both wisdom and strength.


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## Scott1 (Mar 6, 2009)

I would not want to try to advise you.

In reformed theology, the unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement.

Look at the vows you are asked to take, and the polity of the church carefully in assessing this.


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## LeeJUk (Mar 6, 2009)

If proclaming the gospel will get me thrown out or opposed in the presbytery/congregation if I get ordained at least ill be doing the correct thing and I'll happily get thrown out for such a thing


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## Wanderer (Mar 6, 2009)

LeeJUk said:


> If proclaming the gospel will get me thrown out or opposed in the presbytery/congregation if I get ordained at least ill be doing the correct thing and I'll happily get thrown out for such a thing




Be true to what the King would have you preach and teach.

If the men or women of your denomination would bring you up on charges for it, then so be it. 

Our life belongs to the Christ, and we are commanded to be his ambassadors. I see no command to proclaim the truth only where you will not be persecuted. 

Also, I see where scripture rule is that you are to witness where you are called.

I think about Martin Luther, he was called to witness when he was in the Roman Catholic Church. He still preached Christ's message, even though it went against he Pope himself. 

It may be that they eventually will through you out of their denomination. I say if you are being true to Christ, and preach His words, then if they through you out, they through Christ out, and they bring judgment down on their own heads.

Anyhow, perhaps Christ will use you in this manner to bring the denomination back to Christ's ways.

But in any case, if you stay true to Christ and do not compromise His truths, I believe you can rest confident that in the end Christ will bestow upon you the title of "Good and Faithful Servant". What more could one want other than that.

Just remember, be true to Christ in all you do, and do not make any oaths or vows that will compromise you witness, and I think you will do just fine.


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