# Sura 9:5 says, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them



## SolaGratia (Nov 13, 2010)

[video=youtube;qYbaln3Uqfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYbaln3Uqfc[/video]


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## Rich Koster (Nov 13, 2010)

It also says to befriend us (using deception if needed), exploit us for gain, try to assimilate us and then if we do not convert....what you said. The man in the video knows their agenda.


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## AThornquist (Nov 13, 2010)

I seem to remember that in our church constitution.  Or maybe not ...


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## Rich Koster (Nov 13, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> I seem to remember that in our church constitution.  Or maybe not ...



You might be confusing that with Phelp's crew.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

was that Calvin?


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## SolaGratia (Nov 13, 2010)

http://www.trinitylectures.org/MP3/The_Religious_Wars_of_the_21st_Century.mp3


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

Oh yes, wake up and smell the coffee. Unlike Christianity, Islam is very pragmatic. 

JIHAD Lit. "An effort, or a striving." A religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad.. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur’an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and of repelling evil from Muslims.
When an infidel’s country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:--
(1) The reception of Islam, in which case the conquered become enfranchised citizens of the Muslim state.
(2) The Payment of a poll-tax (Jizyah), by which unbelievers in Islam obtain protection, and become Zimmis, provided they are not the idolaters of Arabia.
(3) Death by the sword, to those who will not pay the poll tax.
Sufi writers say that there are two Jihads: al-Jihadu ‘l-Akbar, or "the greater warfare," which is against one’s own lusts; and al-Jihadu ‘l-asghar, or "the lesser warfare," against infidels.
The duty of religious war (which all commentators agree is a duty extending to all time) is laid down in the Qur’an in the following verses, and it is remarkable that all the verses occur in the al-Madinah Surahs, being those given after Muhammad had established himself as a paramount ruler and was in a position to dictate terms to his enemies.
Surah ix.5,6: "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful. If any one of those who join gods with God ask an asylum of thee, grant him an asylum, that he may hear the Word of God, and then let him reach his place of safety. This, for that they are people devoid of knowledge."
Surah ix. 29: "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute (Jizyah) out of hand, and they be humbled."
Surah iv. 76-79: "Let those then fight on the path of God, who exchange this present life for that which is to come; for whoever fighteth on God’s path, whether he be slain or conquer, we will in the end give him a great reward. But what hath come to you that ye fight not on the path of God, and for the weak among men, women, and children, who say, ‘O our Lord! Bring us forth from this city whose inhabitants are oppressors; give us a champion from Thy presence; and give us from thy presence a defender.’ They who believe, fight on the path of God; and they who believe not, fight on the path of Tagut: Fight therefore against the friends of Satan. Verily the craft of Satan shall be powerless! Hast thou not marked those to who it was said, ‘Withhold your hands awhile from war; and observe prayer, and pay the stated alms.’ But when war is commanded them, lo! A portion of them fear men as with the fear of God, or with a yet greater fear, and say: "O our Lord! Why has Thou commanded us war? Couldst thou not have given us respite till our not distant end?’ Say: Small the fruition of this world; but the next life is the true good for him who feareth God! And ye shall not be wronged so much as the skin of a date-stone."
Surah ii.214, 215: "They will ask thee concerning war in the Sacred Month. Say: To war therein is bad, but to turn aside from the cause of God, and to have no faith in Him and in the Sacred Temple, and to drive out its people, is worse in the sight of God; and civil strife is worse than bloodshed. They will not cease to war against you until they turn you from your religion, if they be able: but whoever of you shall turn from his religion and die an infidel, their works shall be fruitless in this world, and in the next: they shall be consigned to the fire; therein to abide for aye. But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in the cause of God may hope for God’s mercy: and God is Gracious, Merciful.
Surah viii. 39-42: "Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s. If they desist, verily God beholdeth what they do: but if they turn their back, know ye that God is your protector: Excellent protector! excellent helper! And know ye, that when ye have taken any booty, a fifth part belongeth to God and to the Apostle, and to the near of kin, and to orphans, and to the poor, and to the wayfarer.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2010)

Waiting for it....


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> When an infidel’s country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:--
> (1) The reception of Islam, in which case the conquered become enfranchised citizens of the Muslim state.
> (2) The Payment of a poll-tax (Jizyah), by which unbelievers in Islam obtain protection, and become Zimmis, provided they are not the idolaters of Arabia.
> (3) Death by the sword, to those who will not pay the poll tax.



How much is the poll tax in Turkey, Egypt, Syria and Iraq?


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## AThornquist (Nov 13, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> Waiting for it....


 

 There is obviously a trend in topics on Islam when I know exactly what you are referring to.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

TimV said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > When an infidel’s country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:--
> ...


 
I'm not sure, but I'm certain they don't take Visa


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> I'm not sure, but I'm certain they don't take Visa



OK, let's try another one. Trying to pin down some people is really, really hard work!!

So, is there anyone here who believes all Muslim nations practice this? A yes or no would be nice, but not exacly expected.



seajayrice said:


> (1) The reception of Islam, in which case the conquered become enfranchised citizens of the Muslim state.
> (2) The Payment of a poll-tax (Jizyah), by which unbelievers in Islam obtain protection, and become Zimmis, provided they are not the idolaters of Arabia.
> (3) Death by the sword, to those who will not pay the poll tax.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2010)

TimV said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > When an infidel’s country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:--
> ...


 
There it is!

Wow... and posted a mere 4 minutes after I posted my "waiting for it" post... I sure didn't have to wait long! 

Anyway, that's what I was waiting for... The beginning of Tim's obligatory "Muslims aren't really all that bad" response to any thread speaking ill of Islam. 

(If one thinks I'm being rhetorical, or exagerating... just check the historical record!)


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

Just like Tim's obigatory objection to "All Bibles except the KJV are written by the Devil" threads.

Really, Ben. Pastor Buchanan says things much clearer and graciously than I do, but his posts aren't any different, and he and Pastor Winzer are by for the most knowledgeable people on this board. I would be interested in Pastor Winzer's take on things.

The only true test of an hypothesis is to try to disprove it. If you make the claim that Islamic nations by their very nature will enforce either conversion, death or a poll tax then you need to try to disprove it. So, how much do Christians pay?

The Poll Tax, when implemented, varied widely. Only free men of military age were taxed and the justification was military exemption. In return, Christians were protected both inside and outside the State, and allowed to practice their faith. Of course it's demeaning. That's not the point, though. The point is, well, how much do Christians pay in those countries?? To say they don't take Visa isn't an answer, it's getting carried away by an emotion.

These arguments all too often take the form of "Flies reproduce every 5 days, therefore in 15 years the total number of flies will be so high that they will cover the whole earth and suffocate every other living being".


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## Rich Koster (Nov 13, 2010)

I don't think this is a science project. I also don't think the history books are complete on the topic of crusades, ethnic cleansings and "holy wars". The drift of the topic, to me is, that we should expect to see more aggressive actions from radical/fundamentalist Islam. To ignore them and think global trade is the answer is just plain ignorant of what is going on.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

TimV said:


> Just like Tim's obigatory objection to "All Bibles except the KJV are written by the Devil" threads.
> 
> Really, Ben. Pastor Buchanan says things much clearer and graciously than I do, but his posts aren't any different, and he and Pastor Winzer are by for the most knowledgeable people on this board. I would be interested in Pastor Winzer's take on things.
> 
> ...


 
My bad. I bought into the whole Jihad, 911 thing. Sorry, let me correct myself. Islam is the religion of peace. Better?


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## kvanlaan (Nov 13, 2010)

I know for a fact (I know the people directly, they've sat in my living room and eaten my food) that Egyptian Christians who are citizens and residents of the country are given the 'privilege' of living on the garbage heaps and make a living out of what they can recycle from the trash. They're Copts, so we can shoot them full of holes theologically, but this IS the reaction of Islam to Christianity. Full stop. No further discussion needed.

I can't comment on the dhimmi tax, but I know that it has been imposed at various points throughout history. But really, those things are just details. Their endgame is that a human, physical Caliph will rule the world and we will live under Sharia law. You can wait for that, I won't. At some point, we must put our foot down.


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> My bad. I bought into the whole Jihad, 911 thing. Sorry, let me correct myself. Islam is the religion of peace. Better?



No, not yet. You have to tell me how much money Christians pay in Poll Tax in Turkey, Egypt, Syrian and Iraq.

If any of those countries don't have a poll tax then it's like me claiming you are gay with authority. I.e. it would be wrong.

So, if Egypt for example abolished the Poll Tax in 1815 and made Christmas a national holiday on 2002 you would not only be bearing false witness but would be hard pressed to prove a certain tendency.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Kevin you know me well enough that I would never call you a liar. I am sure you are relating what you have seen. For me, the Copts I've met were very rich. So that's doesn't answer things. I think I could convince you that Iraqi and Syrian Christians are richer per captia than Muslims in those lands. But still, I'd rather be a Christian here than there. For sure!!!! And thanks for admitting you are unclear as to whether the Poll Tax is always implemented. It does much for your credibility.

I'd just caution you, as a very experienced traveler to remember the dangers of "preventive" aggression.

Regards
Tim

PS I don't think Persians would like to see a Caliph. I think their preference is an Ayatollah


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## Andres (Nov 13, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > seajayrice said:
> ...


 
just as easily I could have inserted the "wait for it" comment before you and anticipated the whole "muslims are going to take over the US next month so we need to kill them all now because they are all are sworn enemies" stuff. It goes both ways brother.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

TimV said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > My bad. I bought into the whole Jihad, 911 thing. Sorry, let me correct myself. Islam is the religion of peace. Better?
> ...


 
You're calling me gay because I disagree with Islamic doctrine? Mod help . Ok, aside from personal attacks, what's wrong with interpreting Islam from the Koran?


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> Ok, aside from personal attacks, what's wrong with interpreting Islam from the Koran?



If you claim I'm calling you gay when a 12 year old can tell I said it would be wrong to call you gay, you aren't a the level to understand my response. Why don't you just tell me one of two things. Either how much the Poll Tax is in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Egypt or admit you just don't know if they practice it or not. It's not rocket science.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2010)

Andres said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > TimV said:
> ...


 
Except I didn't and don't say that. Don't hurt yourself, buddy.

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------




TimV said:


> Really, Ben. Pastor Buchanan says things much clearer and graciously than I do, but his posts aren't any different, and he and Pastor Winzer are by for the most knowledgeable people on this board.


 
Really? I didn't get that memo. Because, frankly, I can think of several that are super knowledgeable in a range of topics.


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## AThornquist (Nov 13, 2010)

Wow. This went nowhere very quickly.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

TimV said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, aside from personal attacks, what's wrong with interpreting Islam from the Koran?
> ...


 
Why the whole gay thing? Now on top of my sexuality you infer some adolescent moniker to me? When will it stop? I already replied to your dastardly inquiry, I don't know how many Christians are being taxed and to what extent Christians are being taxed in these Godless lands. But should you wish to remain apologetic for this Satanic religion, please continue. Why don't you ask the Church about practices is these places. You will find your beloved Islam is not so benevolent. I await your reply.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 13, 2010)

CJ - He didn't call you gay.


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## TimV (Nov 13, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> You will find your beloved Islam is not so benevolent. I await your reply.



I gave you one when I said the Poll Tax was abolished in Egypt in 1815. You've yet to either prove your claim or apologise for your Visa remark.

Raw emotion is no substitute for a systematic regimen of reading and study.


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## seajayrice (Nov 13, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> CJ - He didn't call you gay.


 
I know. Just trying to lighten the intercourse. Carry on.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Nov 13, 2010)

And I'm sure *everyon*e was waiting for this:

Thread Closed.


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