# RPW and Seder 'reenactment'?



## Davidius (Mar 4, 2007)

Hey everyone,

I have been invited by a friend to attend a Seder dinner at their church in April. It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be part of a worship service, rather just a fellowship dinner with a "historical theme" for education and fun. I just thought I would ask you all what you think about it since I'm new to the RPW and don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## Ambrose (Mar 4, 2007)

"Jewish Seder" - Pagan Anti-Christ rituals to which Christians sometimes wish to superimpose Christian truths and get in touch with their "Jewish roots." 

Israel's Passover - completely different and full of actual Christian themes.


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## Staphlobob (Mar 5, 2007)

Chad Degenhart said:


> "Jewish Seder" - Pagan Anti-Christ rituals to which Christians sometimes wish to superimpose Christian truths and get in touch with their "Jewish roots."
> 
> Israel's Passover - completely different and full of actual Christian themes.




I'm curious. What's the difference between the two?


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## Kevin (Mar 5, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have been invited by a friend to attend a Seder dinner at their church in April. It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be part of a worship service, rather just a fellowship dinner with a "historical theme" for education and fun. I just thought I would ask you all what you think about it since I'm new to the RPW and don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.



   

Flee lest the roof fall upon you!

Wondering what other pagan sacraments you would partake of? 

Would you partake of a "historical theme" mass?

I think it is a very bad idea.


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## calgal (Mar 5, 2007)

Chad Degenhart said:


> "Jewish Seder" - Pagan Anti-Christ rituals to which Christians sometimes wish to superimpose Christian truths and get in touch with their "Jewish roots."
> 
> Israel's Passover - completely different and full of actual Christian themes.



Would you please clarify a little bit? What differences are you discussing and which Seder are you referring to in first paragraph?  I can say that the "Jews for Jesus" clowns do fit your description perfectly.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 5, 2007)

I went to one of these years ago. It seems to be somewhat popular in dispensational circles. Zola Levitt was big in doing seders for churches back then.

Regarding the "differences" alluded to by Chad, I can only give my recollection. The emphasis seemed to be on interpreting current Jewish "custom" associated with the Passover observance rather than the biblical data/correspondence. You are led through all the elements of the seder and shown how many details are "actually" pictures of Christ and his work on the cross, which the Jews today "unwittingly" perpetuate.


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## dannyhyde (Mar 5, 2007)

"We believe that the ceremonies and symbols of the law have ended with the coming of Christ, and that all foreshadowings have come to an end, so that the use of them ought to be abolished among Christians."

--Belgic Confession, article 25


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 5, 2007)

Knowing that the ceremonies and symbols have ended with the coming of Christ, and that all foreshadowings have come to an end, and it is just for education, I don't see why a Christian must avoid such educational lessons. 

An elder at my former PCA church would reenact the Pasach Seder with his family simply to educate them on that foreshadowing event. It actually was very enlightening as to how Christ fulfilled this ceremony and clarified many parts of the gospels. 

To me, this falls under the same endeavors we take to help us understand the Palestinian Jewish perspective of the Biblical times. Such perspectives help clarify the scriptural accounts.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 5, 2007)

Kevin said:


> Wondering what other pagan sacraments you would partake of?



{Mod on}

Kevin,

This comment was unwarranted, and unhelpful. Suggesting that David would willingly partake in "pagan sacraments" in the sense implied by your comment is insulting, as well as presumptuous in light of the fact that the *very thing* he was doing by starting this thread was asking for input on the nature of the event, the implications of the RPW for it, etc. - precisely trying to ensure that he would _not_ end up doing something like what your comment suggests.

{/Mod off}


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 5, 2007)

David,

As the input from Josh, Rev. Hyde and Christopher has already suggested, if nothing else, the properness in attending such an issue lies not so much within the realms of an RPW question as it does a question of what is _meant_ by the event (i.e. its nature as a mere historical lesson, or something more). That is because the RPW, coming in part from the second commandment, is concerned with _how_ we worship the _true_ God - as such, the context in which the RPW applies is a service that is meant as _Christian worship_, which this event is certainly not intended as, regardless of whether it is a mere history lesson or more.

So I would say that the issue to further consider is implications this event has for the fulfillment of the law (as Rev. Hyde referenced from BC 25), rather than the RPW (which is established in BC 32). And in regards to that issue, I'm honestly not totally sure what to say about the implications of such an event. From how you've described it, its apparent intention as a mere history lesson or the like seems to suggest that its practice would not actually imply a denial of the law's fulfillment. Even so, I know there are people who would claim that the very practice itself _would_ in fact count as an implicit denial of such in practice, regardless of intent. I'm interested in hearing further input from both sides of that question.


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## tcalbrecht (Mar 5, 2007)

ChristopherPaul said:


> To me, this falls under the same endeavors we take to help us understand the Palestinian Jewish perspective of the Biblical times. Such perspectives help clarify the scriptural accounts.



Most "passover seders" have little if anything in common with what was practiced by the early church in biblical times.

Modern seders are steeped in the traditions of the post-incarnation rabbis over many centuries.

If you want a sufficient picture of what Christ did for us, all you have to do is read His word and practice His sacraments.


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## etexas (Mar 5, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have been invited by a friend to attend a Seder dinner at their church in April. It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be part of a worship service, rather just a fellowship dinner with a "historical theme" for education and fun. I just thought I would ask you all what you think about it since I'm new to the RPW and don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.


Hi David, I would have no problems going with the intent that is a mere historical theme and nothing more. I went to Jerusalem 10 years ago and went to some Jewish festivities. I don't know.....I remained Christian.


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## Kevin (Mar 5, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> {Mod on}
> 
> Kevin,
> 
> ...



Mea culpa. No insult intended. I was only trying to shift the focus a bit and point out that most (reformed) christians would not even ask that question about any other sacrament celebrated by any other religion.

Again no ofense intended.


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## Davidius (Mar 5, 2007)

tcalbrecht said:


> Modern seders are steeped in the traditions of the post-incarnation rabbis over many centuries.
> 
> If you want a sufficient picture of what Christ did for us, all you have to do is read His word and practice His sacraments.



I wouldn't participate in it to find a sufficient picture of what Christ did for us. From what I've gathered, the purpose of the gathering is to learn about how Jews interpreted the teaching in the Torah concerning the Passover meal. Like Chris said, it has nothing to do with actually engaging in sacramental worship or downplaying the sufficiency of scripture.


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## Davidius (Mar 5, 2007)

Kevin said:


> Mea culpa. No insult intended. I was only trying to shift the focus a bit and point out that most (reformed) christians would not even ask that question about any other sacrament celebrated by any other religion.
> 
> Again no ofense intended.



Kevin, 

I appreciate your apology.  

I'll just add that I have only been a member of a Reformed church for a few months.


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## Davidius (Mar 5, 2007)

Me Died Blue said:


> David,
> 
> As the input from Josh, Rev. Hyde and Christopher has already suggested, if nothing else, the properness in attending such an issue lies not so much within the realms of an RPW question as it does a question of what is _meant_ by the event (i.e. its nature as a mere historical lesson, or something more). That is because the RPW, coming in part from the second commandment, is concerned with _how_ we worship the _true_ God - as such, the context in which the RPW applies is a service that is meant as _Christian worship_, which this event is certainly not intended as, regardless of whether it is a mere history lesson or more.
> 
> So I would say that the issue to further consider is implications this event has for the fulfillment of the law (as Rev. Hyde referenced from BC 25), rather than the RPW (which is established in BC 32). And in regards to that issue, I'm honestly not totally sure what to say about the implications of such an event. From how you've described it, its apparent intention as a mere history lesson or the like seems to suggest that its practice would not actually imply a denial of the law's fulfillment. Even so, I know there are people who would claim that the very practice itself _would_ in fact count as an implicit denial of such in practice, regardless of intent. I'm interested in hearing further input from both sides of that question.



Chris,

Thanks for distinguishing here and putting the focus on the actual nature of the gathering. I do think it is important to remember that what I've been invited to is not a worship service in which Passover is being celebrated "from a Christian perspective" in place of the Lord's Supper or anything like that. 

However, I do suppose that one intent of the service is to "see Christ" in traditions that, as Jim mentioned, aren't directly part of the Passover teaching in scripture but were "deductions" or maybe even "additions" made by Jewish theologians throughout history. Do the additions (that is, any part of the meal that is meant to be symbolic but is not mentioned in the biblical teaching) make it wrong to actually _hold_ the ceremony, even if it's not for worship? I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a difference between studying Jewish tradition in a book and actually having the meal, even if the meal is statedly not for the purpose of worship.

Does Romans 14 and the celebration of old holy days and/or feasts apply here? Celebrating any Jewish feast, which seems to be what Paul was referring to (someone correct me if I'm wrong), would have even _greater_ implications than what is being considered in this context since the purpose of this get-together is different, and Paul seemed to claim that such people were in sin. They were considered weaker brothers because they thought celebration of such feasts or days was something which _should_ be done, but that isn't even the case here.


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## tcalbrecht (Mar 5, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> From what I've gathered, the purpose of the gathering is to learn about how Jews interpreted the teaching in the Torah concerning the Passover meal.



If that is your purpose, then wouldn't you be better off finding an orthodox Jewish family and having passover them them (if they would allow such a thing)?

Most modern Christians who conduct these services superimpose 2000 years of tradition and history onto the service. It usually is not very authentic. It's akin to folks who wear jewelry consisting of a cross and "star of David" comingled.

The infallible way to find out how Christians intrepret the "Torah" wrt Passover is found in the Bible.


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