# Not an anti-Semite!



## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with the hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Hate to post so quickly on my own thread.....but they also throw around "Replacement Theology"....I am usually...who am I trying to "replace"? The Lord Jesus was born Jewish as the Greater Son of David....I am not trying to replace him! The Apostle Paul was Jewish of birth....I am not trying to replace him. Is this accusation also a red herring....I do not "get" this Replacement thing.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm an anti-dentite.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> I'm an anti-dentite.


......Guess I COULD say I am a big Seinfed fan.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 1, 2007)

etexas said:


> Hate to post so quickly on my own thread.....but they also throw around "Replacement Theology"....I am usually...who am I trying to "replace"? The Lord Jesus was born Jewish as the Greater Son of David....I am not trying to replace him! The Apostle Paul was Jewish of birth....I am not trying to replace him. Is this accusation also a red herring....I do not "get" this Replacement thing.



If it were me I would answer by "So what?" Then I would say,

The church doesn't replace Israel; Jesus does.

Every spiritual blessing was won by Christ. The new testament says these blessings are "in him," and if we are in Christ, then they belong to us. All the promises of the Old Testament now apply and are fulfilled in Christ. Therefore, if we are united to Christ, then they are ours! The kingdom that God promised his people in the Old Testament is not some fuzzy, spiritual reality now-called the church. No, the kingdom is given to Christ and we, the church, experience it through him! (Moore, 119). And what does the resurrected Jesus inherit? He inherits the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Acts 13:32-33)

The NT applies to Jesus language previously applied to Israel (Ex. 4.22; Matthew 2.15). So Jesus replaces Israel, not the church.
So it's not the church that replaces Israel, but Jesus that replaces Israel--and the church by union in Christ share and inherit these blessings (heirs with God, fellow heirs with Jesus Christ).

While I usually despise answering questions with "copy/paste," since it's my own stuff I figured it's okay.
Rebuilding the Ruins: dodging the impasse between dispensationalism and covenant theology


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > Hate to post so quickly on my own thread.....but they also throw around "Replacement Theology"....I am usually...who am I trying to "replace"? The Lord Jesus was born Jewish as the Greater Son of David....I am not trying to replace him! The Apostle Paul was Jewish of birth....I am not trying to replace him. Is this accusation also a red herring....I do not "get" this Replacement thing.
> ...


I have tried that but with little success....if I say Jesus fufils or "replaces" Israel....it is treated as if the statement were tantomont to the Church usurping some unrightful position.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 1, 2007)

etexas said:


> Spear Dane said:
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Then you say "So what?" Seriously, the above is different from standard covenant theology. Some CT theologians have used language that lends itself to the anti-semite charge. But the above is not it. 

It's an emotional argument on their part. I would say what kind of fallacy they are committing, but I fear that would be overboard for one day.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> etexas said:
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I think the great wisdom in your statement is that it is an emotional argument. That being the case......perhaps it might be best not to discourse with those who will not be rational.


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## Richard King (Nov 1, 2007)

yes 
I think it was the warning I got most often when I mentioned I had started going to a PCA church.

People said:
Watch out for an underlying disdain for the state of Israel. 
Watch out for that replacement theology.
Watch out about having all your joy and emotions held in check.
Those people are all preterists aren't they?
Those people are all libs aren't they?

I cannot believe how many people think they are experts in what other groups believe.

I am still having problems with being considered anti semitic because I beg my mom who lives on a meager retirement check to please stop sending money to preachers who are trying to save Israel and rebuild a temple.

I am about at the point of just saying I believe Jesus is the Messiah so I am automatically kicked out of the groups that don't proclaim that and then moving on to the next topic.


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 1, 2007)

etexas said:


> In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with he hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?




The last round about that I got into with a Dispensational Baptist preacher that leveled that charge at me I retorted with "why do you hate Christ and downplay His Blood atonement"?. That's exactly what they do when they teach two different peoples of God with two different inheritances. If I'm anti-semite you're an anti-Christ. If they are dual covenant, which this fellow was, they are involved in serious false teaching.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with he hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?
> ...


Good point! they throw their charge around ike so much loose change....yet.....yes, they hold the Anti "ground" anti-Christ.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 1, 2007)

This was actually the first question I had for a Reformed Pastor when my husband was studying Reformed Theology and took me to a (gasp!) PCA.

1) are they just accusing you of it as a means to shut you up or are they the type really willing to listen?

2) the Pastor that I spoke with was patient and explained that instead of "replacing", the church is a "continuation"...then went on to explain how Covenant Theology is one Covenant, a running thread from the beginning to the end. That made sense to me.

He made no attacks upon my previously held views or Israel and it's issues throughout history. He stayed focused on God's people throughout history to today.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> This was actually the first question I had for a Reformed Pastor when my husband was studying Reformed Theology and took me to a (gasp!) PCA.
> 
> 1) are they just accusing you of it as a means to shut you up or are they the type really willing to listen?
> 
> ...


Thank you. I like a word you used..continuation! The church is very inclusive! There are "physical Jews" grafted into the Church the same as Gentiles. Starting from this point an anti-Semite charge does not hold water.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 1, 2007)

Nothing has caused Western society to feel the need to kiss the collective behind of Jews like the Holocaust. Jews have milked those truly horrific years for every ounce of propaganda value they can... and then some! So great is the fear of offending the Jew that now Jewish folks will label a person "anti-semitic" for simply questioning a given practice or policy of the state of Israel. Any challenge to a "Jewish" doctrine, tradition, or practice is grounds (in their mind) to call someone anti-semitic. If I'm to be labeled "anti-" (fill in the blank with any given people group) for simply challenging a doctrine or tradition, or practice... then I suppose that I'm anti-everybody.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Nothing has caused Western society to feel the need to kiss the collective behind of Jews like the Holocaust. Jews have milked those truly horrific years for every ounce of propaganda value they can... and then some! So great is the fear of offending the Jew that now Jewish folks will label a person "anti-semitic" for simply questioning a given practice or policy of the state of Israel. Any challenge to a "Jewish" doctrine, tradition, or practice is grounds (in their mind) to call someone anti-semitic. If I'm to be labeled "anti-" (fill in the blank with any given people group) for simply challenging a doctrine or tradition, or practice... then I suppose that I'm anti-everybody.


Good point! I once challenged much Reformed doctrine or at least qustioned it....so for a while I guess someone could have called me anti-Reformedite!


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 1, 2007)

etexas said:


> LadyFlynt said:
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> > This was actually the first question I had for a Reformed Pastor when my husband was studying Reformed Theology and took me to a (gasp!) PCA.
> ...


Precisely...and I like the way you stated that; it was also pretty much what the Pastor had said.


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## Pergamum (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Nothing has caused Western society to feel the need to kiss the collective behind of Jews like the Holocaust. Jews have milked those truly horrific years for every ounce of propaganda value they can... and then some! So great is the fear of offending the Jew that now Jewish folks will label a person "anti-semitic" for simply questioning a given practice or policy of the state of Israel. Any challenge to a "Jewish" doctrine, tradition, or practice is grounds (in their mind) to call someone anti-semitic. If I'm to be labeled "anti-" (fill in the blank with any given people group) for simply challenging a doctrine or tradition, or practice... then I suppose that I'm anti-everybody.



"Milk" the holocaust for every ounce..."? 

That is careless language.


I prefer to call it ENGRAFTMENT theology rather than REPLACEMENT theology. We are now all one people in Christ. It is not as if the Tree Israel was chopped down and a Gentile one planted in its place; we have all been engrafted into the one tree ISRAEL; believing Jew and believing Gentile alike.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Nothing has caused Western society to feel the need to kiss the collective behind of Jews like the Holocaust. Jews have milked those truly horrific years for every ounce of propaganda value they can... and then some! So great is the fear of offending the Jew that now Jewish folks will label a person "anti-semitic" for simply questioning a given practice or policy of the state of Israel. Any challenge to a "Jewish" doctrine, tradition, or practice is grounds (in their mind) to call someone anti-semitic. If I'm to be labeled "anti-" (fill in the blank with any given people group) for simply challenging a doctrine or tradition, or practice... then I suppose that I'm anti-everybody.



When you consider the number of children slain in their mother's womb, western socieities' "repentance" over the holocaust is pretty shallow. Don't get me wrong, it was a horrible event, but the same thing is happening all over Europe today.


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## Pergamum (Nov 1, 2007)

The answer is greater repentance for all these evils, not blaming the victims by seeing, "You all are wringing all you can get out of this repentence business....and I am tired of it..."



Of course, about the Jewish atrocities in WWII, most Americans have family members who were soldiers in WWII and helped stop this atrocity, so no guilt on our part.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> The answer is greater repentance for all these evils, not blaming the victims by seeing, "You all are wringing all you can get out of this repentence business....and I am tired of it..."
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, about the Jewish atrocities in WWII, most Americans have family members who were soldiers in WWII and helped stop this atrocity, so no guilt on our part.


Actually I should add someting here....the anti-Semite charge has in fact come from Gentiles in the whole dual covenant thing....I think only one gentleman who had but a drop of Jewish blood ever said this to me! I have a very good Jewish friend who refered to the radical Christian-Zionist as "Odd ducks!"


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## puritan lad (Nov 1, 2007)

Replacement Theology is a misnomer. The Church does not replace Israel. The Church Is Israel, and always has been, even in the Old Covenant.

I've been called and anti-semite by any number of Dispensationalists. I like to point out that modern evangelicals are pushing to help Jews return to Israel and reclaim the temple mount. Why? So that 1/3 of the can be killed during the Great Tribulation. 

With friends like that, who needs enemies?


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

By the Bye...I started laughing after my last post........a little irony......think about a so called "anti-Semite"....with a buddy with the last name....Levine.....sort of pops their bbble there!


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## Craig (Nov 1, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> Replacement Theology is a misnomer. The Church does not replace Israel. The Church Is Israel, and always has been, even in the Old Covenant.
> 
> I've been called and anti-semite by any number of Dispensationalists. I like to point out that modern evangelicals are pushing to help Jews return to Israel and reclaim the temple mount. Why? So that 1/3 of the can be killed during the Great Tribulation.
> 
> With friends like that, who needs enemies?



Precisely. Why answer in a theologically "correct" way? Tit for tat. You have a more biblical approach to the people of God as one body...the Dispensational's are playing a game of mouse trap..."Here Jews! Follow the cheese! There you go, that crazy Antichrist guy wants to feed it to you....TRUST ME!"

With that in mind, you want to see the Jews trust in Christ and be saved...for them, the Jews are a means to an end...a "final solution", if you will.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 1, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing has caused Western society to feel the need to kiss the collective behind of Jews like the Holocaust. Jews have milked those truly horrific years for every ounce of propaganda value they can... and then some! So great is the fear of offending the Jew that now Jewish folks will label a person "anti-semitic" for simply questioning a given practice or policy of the state of Israel. Any challenge to a "Jewish" doctrine, tradition, or practice is grounds (in their mind) to call someone anti-semitic. If I'm to be labeled "anti-" (fill in the blank with any given people group) for simply challenging a doctrine or tradition, or practice... then I suppose that I'm anti-everybody.
> ...



Actually, my choice of words was quite calculated.

Your discussion of engraftment or replacement, blah blah blah... that is fine and dandy if you're trying to talk to explain yourself. But the reality - the harsh world in which I live and breathe and dwell - is that folks aren't really interested in nuanced explanation. The REALITY is exactly as I described it: if you "dare" to say something other than that Israel is 100% spot on, or if you dare to say that any particular Jewish belief or practice is (gasp!) wrong... you're labeled an "anti-semite." That's the fact, Jack. 

Incidentally, it's kind of like the use of the term "homophobe"... a term they throw out hoping to get you to go into a really fast backpeddle to "prove" that you're not.

So when accused of being anti-semitic by folks who have created a totally ridiculous definition of what it means to BE anti-semitic... you can either say, "Well, actually..." or you can challenge THEIR definition. The choice is yours.


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## etexas (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Pergamum said:
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BANG! and spot on!


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## RamistThomist (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Pergamum said:
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## Anton Bruckner (Nov 1, 2007)

"Israel the bride of the Father, and the Church is the bride of Christ". Check out this video by Haggee
The Threshing Floor Radio Show » Blog Archive » John Hagee’s Declares: “Jesus Did Not Come To Earth To Be Messiah”


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## Pergamum (Nov 1, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Your discussion of engraftment or replacement, blah blah blah...
> QUOTE]
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## MrMerlin777 (Nov 2, 2007)

etexas said:


> In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with the hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?




I've been accused of being an Anti-Semite often just because someone discerns that I'm a Calvinist. Hyper-Dispensationalists in particular usually accuse me of being an Anti-Semite and then just discontinue the conversation and walk away.


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## calgal (Nov 2, 2007)

SolaScriptura said:


> Pergamum said:
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I find it supremely ironic that some of the most racist people I have met tend to be "oppressed minorities" if you will and Jews are just as bigoted as any other unsaved group. The fun thing about Dispensationalists for all their talk about loving Jews, they really love the idea of someone else being cannon fodder for their distorted notion of Jesus. And THAT IMNSHO is TRUE anti-semitism: you are only valuable as Tribulation tinder.  This is from a 100% "race traitor" if you will.


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## JoeRe4mer (Nov 16, 2007)

etexas said:


> In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with the hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?



I was in a conversation with 2 classic dispensational pastors about a week ago and both claimed that Amillennialism laid the ground work for anti-semitism. I told them thats like me saying dispensationalism leads to bad charts and conspiracy theories...  JK 

I really just said that they were using a fallacy and left it at that.


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## etexas (Nov 16, 2007)

JoeRe4mer said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with the hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?
> ...


....Just as well...had you said what you were really thinking they might have started doing charts....possibly "proving" you to be the Beast!


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## Iconoclast (Nov 16, 2007)

*The true Israel*



etexas said:


> In debating with Dual-Covenat people, Hyper-Dispensationalists, and Jewish Roots focus people, they tend to dodge the real issues with the hurtful, anti-semite! Have any of you ever gotten this? How do you respond lovingly and according to scripture. My "fleshly" responce is that I just want to SCREAM...."I am NOT anti-anyone!......of course that gets you nowhere. What is the best and proper way to answer, if you feel that you should answer such a charge?



Jesus is the True Israel , and us In Him.

Isaiah 49
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 

7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 

8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 

9That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. 

10They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 

11And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 

12Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 

13Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. 

In the Nt.you see this in Matthew 2
3And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 

14When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: 

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son

and in Heb 11: 
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


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