# Theology of burial



## jfschultz (Mar 14, 2005)

My mother-in-law had pre-planned her burial. The costs were covered with the paperwork showing the total and a deduction for the difference between the price when pre-planned and the current price.

The total came to over $10,000 to put her body in a box that was put into another box and the whole thing buried in the ground. Should we spend so much money and effort to delay or avoid the decay God decreed should take place?


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## pastorway (Mar 14, 2005)

Having officiated at many funerals and also having worked for a time at a funeral home, I have come to the conclusion personally that when I die, I want my body put in a pine box and in the ground - nothing artificial, nothing removed, nothing drained, nothing preserved, nothing sealed.

Just let my body return to dust as God intended through natural processes.

This probably means that I will not be buried in any of the local cemeteries, for they all require embalming, etc. So I am praying that in the future my wife and I can buy some acreage in the country where we can live, farm, ranch, whatever, and when I die I can be buried in the family plot out under a big oak tree! 

It is a lot more than theology by the way behind the current state of funerals in the US. It is BIG BUSINESS.

Phillip


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## lwadkins (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree, just put me in the ground and skip the embalming stuff.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Mar 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> Having officiated at many funerals and also having worked for a time at a funeral home, I have come to the conclusion personally that when I die, I want my body put in a pine box and in the ground - nothing artificial, nothing removed, nothing drained, nothing preserved, nothing sealed.
> 
> Just let my body return to dust as God intended through natural processes.
> ...



better check with your states laws first.
depending on the state, embalming, metal or sealed casket, and vault can be required. plus special laws regarding handling of body, and where it can be buried.

http://www.funerals.org/ looks like a nice place to start studying.
especially http://www.funerals.org/caring.htm


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## ARStager (Mar 15, 2005)

On the contrary, I want to be mummified, King Tut style!


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## ARStager (Mar 15, 2005)

This is weird: Our churchyard has been almost completely filled for a while now, but they still make plots available for cremated ashes to members. And yet, in the narathex, they have a book for sale that says that burial (and not cremation) is the biblical practice that testifies to the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. 

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by ARStager]


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## ChristianasJourney (Mar 15, 2005)

Pastor Way, I believe in Texas they have "green cemeteries" which are of the pine box variety and provide exactly what you describe.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## andreas (Mar 15, 2005)

***So I am praying that in the future my wife and I can buy some acreage in the country where we can live, farm, ranch, whatever, and when I die I can be buried in the family plot out under a big oak tree! ***

Better still,buy a cave for they are cheaper.Not much demand for them.


"And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre: the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan. 
And the field, and the cave that is therein, were made sure unto Abraham for a possession of a buryingplace by the sons of Heth." Genesis23:19-20

"And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre; 
The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife." 
Genesis25:9-10

"In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace. 
There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah. 

The purchase of the field and of the cave that is therein was from the children of Heth." Genesis49:30-32

andreas.


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## pastorway (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes. A Bat Cave! hehe 

Seriosuly though, in Texas as long as you set aside a section of land designated for use as a family cemetery, and are at least 



> one mile of cities with a population of 5,000 to 25,000;
> two miles of cities with a population of 25,000 to 50,000;
> three miles of cities with a population of 50,000 to 100,000;
> four miles of cities with a population of 100,000 to 200,000; and
> five miles of cities with a population of over 200,000.



you can be buried on private property. Some county laws may apply, but they mostly regulate how small or large the cemetery can be and how deep remains must be buried (which depends on the type casket used.)

Phillip

[Edited on 3-15-05 by pastorway]


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 15, 2005)

What are people's thoughts on organ donation in light of this topic?


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## ChristianasJourney (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm a hypocrite, in that I'd probably be willing to accept other people's organs before donating my own.


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## andreas (Mar 15, 2005)

***What are people's thoughts on organ donation in light of this topic?***

"And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." 2 Samuel12:22-23

Once we are dead we are dead, and we have no use for any organs,so there is nothing biblically wrong with that.The crucial question is, by whose definition are we dead,man's or God's.Taking organs from someone who is not dead, but BRAIN DEAD,i think, constitutes murder.There is nothing in the scriptures about "brain dead" people.The breath of life is still within them ,and only God who gave it can take it back,nobody else.
andreas.


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## Me Died Blue (Mar 15, 2005)

That's basically how I see it as well, Andreas. This thread just made me wonder how it relates to the valid point of letting our bodies "return to dust as God intended through natural processes," which also seems logical.

I suppose God simply told us that our bodies would inevitably return to dust, which is different from forbidding us from making use of their remaining functioning parts, and simply means that, as 2 Samuel 12 points out, the dead body as a whole cannot be kept from returning to dust, which seems irrelevant to the issue of taking vital organs from it for profitable use to others.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree that there is nothing wrong _per se_ with taking organs from a dead body with consent to help someone in need who is living. That being said, medical ethics today is a joke and I do not trust the people in charge of making such ethical decisions to apply Biblical principles. Some doctors have indeed been charged with attempted or actual murder for jumping the gun and harvesting organs prior to the death of a patient. Others have made a practice of pressuring family members to give consent even against the stated wishes of the patient. In some countries, death row innates and others who are vulnerable to organ harvesting for profit are especially at risk. It's such a slippery slope that I have declined permission for my own organs to be harvested because I don't trust the medical community to make the right decisions while I am on my death bed. Moreoever, I once saw a movie called "Jesus of Montreal" which portrays the Resurrection in light of organ harvesting. Theologically and every which way I have problems with the modern effort to make life go on forever, although as I stated at the beginning, with the right ground rules in place and adhered to, organ donation can be a good thing.


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## lwadkins (Mar 15, 2005)

It has been shown that illegal aliens being smuggled into this county have been required to give a kidney in payment. The kidneys are then sold to brokers who specialize in organs and from there into the medical system.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 15, 2005)

My wife and I are in agreement... 
If we die while we are still moving around (for schooling, etc) and we have not settled ourselves and decided to make this place our home... then we are going to be cremated.
If we die after having settled in a given city/region then we are going to be buried. I'd LOVE to do as Pastor Way wants to do, but we'll have to check into the laws of that area when the time comes.


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## lwadkins (Mar 15, 2005)

China organ harvesting scandal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1411247.stm

Is this the kind of thing the world has to look forward to as the trade in organs becomes more and more lucrative. Of course the justification is to HELP others. That brings up another question. When does the desire to lenghten our lives cross the line?


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## rmwilliamsjr (Mar 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> This is weird: Our churchyard has been almost completely filled for a while now, but they still make plots available for cremated ashes to members. And yet, in the narathex, they have a book for sale that says that burial (and not cremation) is the biblical practice that testifies to the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> ...



my wife buried her mom last month and the issue came up.
it appears that the old generation, she was 85, thinks pretty strongly that the faith requires burial not cremation. and the younger generations dont. the opinions in the family were almost entirely split along generational lines.....

if God can raise a body dead, buried, and long dispersed molecules on the last day, He can certainly raise my ashes....

..


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## pastorway (Mar 15, 2005)

burial vs cremation - either way you will end up dust, cremation just skips a few dozen years!

If you are against cremation, what about those buried at sea? Eaten by animals? Or those who die in a fire? 

The point of the resurection is that God will take the corruptible flesh (or whatever is left of it) and replace it with incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye! 

It matters not in what state you rest as long as you rest in peace! 

Phillip


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 15, 2005)

Phillip - I agree... and cremation will allow your loved ones to save a ton of money.


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## ChristianasJourney (Mar 15, 2005)

I find it interesting that when the people of Israel wanted to descrate an area they would burn the bones of the dead upon it....if you recall in the days of Josiah he allowed them to do this, but told them not to disturb the grave of the man who prophesied"these things." In Amos 2:1 Moab is cursed for the burning the bones of Edom.

I'm not sure what it all means, because I also believe that no matter what state my decayed body is in it'll be resurrected, but I found it interesting.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ChristianasJourney_
> I find it interesting that when the people of Israel wanted to descrate an area they would burn the bones of the dead upon it....if you recall in the days of Josiah he allowed them to do this, but told them not to disturb the grave of the man who prophesied"these things." In Amos 2:1 Moab is cursed for the burning the bones of Edom.
> 
> I'm not sure what it all means, because I also believe that no matter what state my decayed body is in it'll be resurrected, but I found it interesting.



If burning was desecration, per se, then it wouldn't have been much of a desecration in the eyes of the pagans whose very graves were being "desecrated" since pagans burnt their dead all the time! I think the point of the burning of the bones was to totally remove every trace of their existence.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## ChristianasJourney (Mar 15, 2005)

II Ki 23:16

And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that were there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned them upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words. Then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel. And he said, Let him alone; let no man move his bones. So they let his bones alone, with the bones of the prophet that came out of Samaria.




[Edited on 3-16-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ChristianasJourney_
> II Ki 23:16
> 
> And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that were there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned them upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words. Then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel. And he said, Let him alone; let no man move his bones. So they let his bones alone, with the bones of the prophet that came out of Samaria.
> ...



Oh, I do not doubt that their graves were desecrated! But their graves could have been desecrated any number of ways. That they dug up the remains and burned them not only desecrates the grave, but it has the effect - which I think is primary - of totally removing the trace of those people from the Holy land. (For now no one could even point to their grave!)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 15, 2005)

I think this article about cremation v. burial is helpful.

Reactions: Like 1


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## andreas (Mar 16, 2005)

"And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." Leviticus20:14

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Leviticus21:9

Burning with fire was judgment.Why should a christian be burned(cremated)?Old testament people burried their dead. Jesus Himself was burried and not cremated.Burning was not only judgment but was also a pagan practice.

andreas.


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## ChristianasJourney (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> 
> Oh, I do not doubt that their graves were desecrated! But their graves could have been desecrated any number of ways. That they dug up the remains and burned them not only desecrates the grave, but it has the effect - which I think is primary - of totally removing the trace of those people from the Holy land. (For now no one could even point to their grave!)



I'm sorry, it sounds like I must not have made my first post clear. I was in a hurry when I wrote it. This particular example had nothing to do with the heathen or gentile nations--it was an incident that occured in Israel, with the King of Israel, the graves of Israelies, and a prophet of Israel. I was merely citing one of the few places in scripture where it talks about "cremation" and the context of its use.

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## VanVos (Mar 16, 2005)

I hope that I make it to the resurrection 1 Cor 15:51-52. It good to know that we might not even die. 

VanVos


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 16, 2005)

100% against intentional cremation. I also would rather have a simple pine box in the ground.

Also, not sure if I would accept an organ donation due to the malpractices of such. My grandmother was pressure by my grandfather's doctor in Florida to sign papers permitting him to remove my very ill grandfather's organs. Grandpa wasn't even dead!!! The Doctor threatened to sign off on any responsibility towards my grandfather if my grandmother didn't sign the paper. She refused, they lost that doctor, and my grandfather lived (very alert) for the next few years (enough to still boss my grandmother around).


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## Puritanhead (Mar 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> Having officiated at many funerals and also having worked for a time at a funeral home, I have come to the conclusion personally that when I die, I want my body put in a pine box and in the ground - nothing artificial, nothing removed, nothing drained, nothing preserved, nothing sealed.
> 
> Just let my body return to dust as God intended through natural processes.
> ...



In some states, getting buried where you want and how you want isn't really an option... or I should say-- they really narrow your options... It's a racket.

Casket Cartels


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## SRoper (Mar 16, 2005)

From the article referenced above:

"The economic argument says that cremation is preferable because it is less expensive than burial. Costs connected with purchasing a cemetery lot, a coffin and burial vault, a grave stone or marker, and costs of maintaining the grave do not apply to cremation. Response: while it is true that cremation is less expensive than burial as long as the ashes are scattered or cared for privately, and not preserved in a building or vault, even so, this argument by itself is insufficient to justify choosing cremation. *The economic argument will convince only those who for other reasons have already chosen cremation.*"

and

"Moreover, in countries where the Christian faith has had little or no influence, burial is either impossible or extremely difficult. In Japan, for example, beside space limitations, the influence of Buddhism and the *exorbitant costs* connected with burial make cremation more necessary."

Doesn't seem very consistent. Either economics is a factor or it isn't.


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## heartoflesh (Jun 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I think this article about cremation v. burial is helpful.



There's no article there anymore. 

I would be interested in finding at more about this subject, namely, why *not* cremation. Is there solid Biblical evidence against the practice? I am in the process of preparing a will and need to make some decisions.

Thanks

[Edited on 6-20-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



It seems like the entire Spindleworks website is unaccessible at the moment for some reason. The article takes the position -- as I do -- that it would exceed Scriptural authority to say that cremation is sinful _per se_, but does argue that it is less consistent with the expectation of the Resurrection to destroy the body after death rather than to carefully inter the body in a grave. The godly examples of burial in Scripture certainly favor burial (Gen. 35:8,19,29; et al.) over cremation (1 Sam. 31:12). There is no question that God can raise up bodies that are burned or otherwise destroyed, but respect for the body after death warrants in general, I think, a proper burial rather than a pyre.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 26, 2006)

The link that I cited seems to be working at present.


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 26, 2006)

I don't think that I've seen anyone refer to 1 Cor 15. Paul assumes agrarian imagery in his metaphor. We are planted (not burned) and then raised. 

Burial is an act of faith in the resurrection. It's our last opportunity to preach the gospel. We bury in hope, in confidence, in expectation of the resurrection.

Cremation may sometimes be an absolute necessity, but it should be avoided if possible, in my opinion. 

If one plans, there are ways to have an inexpensive or less expensive burial. It is big business, so as long as one realizes that it's a business, then one can shop and compare and bargain and do all the things wise consumers do. 
Phillip, I agree with those who say that your plan is not very likely. State law is quite strict in most places. It's not 1860. We can't just bury Grandma out back under the big oak tree any more. For one thing, what is rural today will, in many places, be suburban before too long! 

rsc


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