# I work with female evangelists - here is my defense, read it and critique it



## Pergamum

Hello all. 

I have gotten some criticisms due to working with several single females who have a burden to spread the Gospel. Below is my response. It is not meant to be a dissertation, but a short and practical response. Please read it, make suggestions on how to improve and and tell me where you agree or disagree and what you would do in these situations. This reponse is a draft of an email response, help me make it good.









*About women "evangelists": ​*
You stated in your email:
_
“There is a concern, on the part of one member only as far as I know, for your involvement with the ______[local group] , whether it is sound doctrinally, something that we could endorse and support. Particularly the issue of the female 'evangelists' was raised. I know that you are aware of the particular nature of our concerns about support for and involvement with organizations with whom we might have some doctrinal 'discomfort.'”_

I will address the issue of female evangelists first and then will address the issue of my involvement with the local churches here.



FIRST QUESTION: Female Evangelists?

Presently, team __________ – though not part of the ______ church - has 2 members of the team who are single females - S and E.

These 2 females labor in hard areas. E. had an uncle plot to kill her when she believed and still has scars from her beatings. These two labored in B CITY for years. First, they opened up a kid's school, but the community met together (in the form of a mob) and told them to close down their efforts. So they relocated and opened another kid's school. This time another mob threw rocks through the windows and broke all of the windows (with the kids inside) until S__ and E__ had to close down this school (because the kids were too scared to come back).

Right now, S___ and E___ are discipling about 20 new believers in B CITY - mostly lower class women. They target women and children specifically. However, they do not turn men away. There are a few men in attendance. Where else would the men go? Most of the teaching is done sitting around mats on the floor and much of this “teaching” is testimonial and explanations, questions and answers, and prayer. I wouldn't classify the situation as having women preach or exercise ecclesiastical authority. If S___ and E___ are asked, they do not deny the Gospel to any but give it to all without discrimination, male and female alike. 

At present, we are actually looking for a male pastor to lead this small prayer group. This small group of believers is not yet called a church. We refer to it as a prayer group. S___ and E____ are praying for a male pastor to lead them and organize them into a church. We did have a male pastor lined up, but he got scared away by the threats of persecution. Right now, it appears that the “best man” for the job are two frail women and S___ and E__ are carrying on under less than ideal circumstances hoping to turn their group over to male leadership. 

Their doctrine (and my own) is that this should be done as soon as possible, but right now under these less than ideal circumstances and in a hard area where persecution exists – the sin of neglecting to tell all who ask them about Jesus is much more heinous than the error of accidentally overstepping some ecclesiastical bounds (which they are trying not to do, even though men do come and ask them for prayer and teaching).



*A question to my own churches:* 

Here are some questions for my supporting churches. It would be good to think through these issues and I welcome further discussion on these point:

-----In an unreached area, if the only 2 believers in a whole area are two women and these 2 women tried only to target women and children, what is the correct response if men occasionally come to hear explanations of the Gospel, to be prayed for and to hear the Scriptures read aloud?
I suppose if a church did not allow female Sunday school teachers than they may have objections to what I am doing. However, most of our churches have no problems with women assuming Sunday school teaching roles.
Here's a few additional thoughts:

---On the mission field we do not always have ideal situations. The S PEOPLE are a people-group of 32 million with less than 1/2 of 1% professing Christ. Many of the Christians gather in urban centers (more tolerant) and many are not real evangelistic nor do they practice outreach (because they are afraid of persecution). In the villages, the situation is even more dire and whole areas have never heard the Gospel. But S___ and E___ are fearless, and at the same time appearing harmless (they can enter anywhere because the male Religious authorities do not suspect them. S___ has a lame leg and both are very quiet in nature...they are ideal for “Covert Church Planting” in heavily Religion of Peace areas). They are able to enter hard areas where others would be suspected. 

---Even if a Sovereign Grace Church objected to them taking the title of "evangelist" many would be willing to allow for less than ideal situations during hard times and in areas of persecution (sort of a Deborah situation). It is far different to push for an agenda that is less than ideal than to consciously tolerate some limited less-than-ideal situations for a time in a world where sin and hardship complicates things. 
A further question to Sovereign Grace Churches: In less than ideal situations, what is the level of tolerance we should display when dealing with Christian groups who do not always dot their I’s like us? Can we help out church planting groups that vary slightly from our beliefs? What is the acceptable level of variance? In unreached Religion of Peace areas, for instance, would it be better not to support a group that differs slightly in doctrine or to support them (because there is no one else around to explain the Gospel)?

---Many of our own Sovereign Grace churches allow for female Sunday School teachers, who teach women and children (even boy children). I would argue that it would be inconsistent for any church that allowed women Sunday school teachers to be overly concerned over these women teachers S___ and E___. Their functions are similar. 

--Many of our churches would probably be willing to support single female missionaries if they entered ministry areas where they could target women and/or children. S___ and E___ are in an analogous situation.

---Also, there are a great many things that women can do without holding ecclesiastical authority over a man. Many of our churches would allow women to sing, possibly to read Scripture publicly, sometimes women pray in prayer services, etc. 

---Several churches have had my wife stand beside me in the front of their church during deputation and they have asked her questions. My wife answered these questions for herself in front of these congregations because the questions were directed towards her. If the injunction, "women should be silent in the churches" is an absolute statement and not merely a prohibition against women exercising ecclesiastical authority (a ruling function) in the church than any such announcement, prayer, song or reading, would thus be prohibited and thus my wife erred as did the church that desired such speaking on my wife’s part. 

---Paul himself - who states that women should be silent - in the same letter to the Corinthians, allows women to "prophesy" and “pray” (I Cor. 11:5, although this might pertain to private homes and not the public assembly, c.f. Calvin’s Commentary on this, although Calvin does not prove this well). The vital point is that women are not to exercise leadership, though we should employ them as much as possible in other allowable roles. And S___ and E__’s prayer group, not yet even being a church but a prayer group within their own private home, might fit a situation analogous to Paul’s words in I Cor. 11:5.

--Also, all of the women evangelists I work with (S__ and E___ in Province X and P___ here in Province P) all specifically target only women and children. Of course, the issue comes up, "What if a man comes and wants to hear the Gospel too?" We should not deny telling the Gospel to anyone, but these women evangelists all specifically target women and children. Their intentions and plans are always to target only women, yet providence brings men across their paths too. Another question to Sovereign Grace churches: In these situations, what should S___ and E__ do that they are not doing now?


---Third World Cultures are often more male-centered than the egalitarian West. A struggle here is often not in limiting the tasks of females but in empowering females. The problems of the West may be rampant egalitarianism, but oppression of women is a larger problem in Religion of Peace cultures as well as tribal ones. Instead of telling women what they cannot do, it is often a struggle to get them to do all that they are allowed to do or provide an environment where the church can utilize women to the extent of the Biblical allowances. Christianity in Asia is often a liberating force, as it was in New Testament times.

---The cultures in Province X and also in Province P are more gender-segregated than we are used to. In the Religion of Peace world, M. women make up a segment of society that is difficult to reach and is, indeed, out of reach for most male evangelists. The only way to reach M. women is often with former M. women. M. women are often the most neglected segment to be evangelized. A similar situation holds true in the culture of Province P, where women are under-valued and are usually the last to hear the Gospel and understand it. Therefore, using female evangelists to specifically target this neglected and hard-to-reach segment of society is a good strategy. In fact, more recruiting of female evangelists needs to be done and maybe some single females from our Sovereign Grace circles could be sent to nurture the fairer sex here in the Third World who live so pitiably.

---In the New Testament, a variety of words are used to explain the activity that resulted in the spread of Christianity. People preached, proclaimed, "Gospelled" witnessed, told, prayed, answered, bore testimony, heralded, taught... It appears that at least some of these activities are not gender-restricted, especially when done informally and not in the context of the local assembly (I Cor. 11:5). All witnessing and Gospelling is not preaching, nor does it need to be done only by preachers.



Perin: In Province P too, we have a tribeswoman Perin living with us as well, who is educated and has gone through Bible school and has a heart to reach the women and children of Province P. She desires to specifically reach women and children and at present lives in our home and is nursing the sick tribal baby (Pulong) back to health. While she targets women and children, she also will speak of Christ to anyone who asks. She has publicly spoken in church to ask prayer for this sick baby and to report on progress in the K Tribal Area.



MY POSITION ON THE ROLE OF WOMEN: 

It is clear that only men can occupy ecclesiastical authority in the church ("teach or have authority over a man." - I Tim 2:12). Only men can be elders/pastors/deacons. Ideally, when serving the Lord's Supper, the church leadership would do such things. There are restrictions on women's roles when it comes to governing or leading (I Cor. 14:33-35; I Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9). 

In issues of mere public recognition or visibility in the church or the teaching of women and children, however, these roles would be open to women. For instance, singing, praying during prayer meetings, and taking the role of a women's teacher or Sunday School teacher (if we accept the notion of Sunday Schools) are allowable roles according to many of our own Sovereign Grace churches even. Giving a testimony in front of the church is allowable if a church believes such a thing is edifying and it is done under the ecclesiastical authority of that church. A woman could be the song leader and might be able to publicly read the Scriptures as well - if done by permission of the rightful ecclesiastical authorities of the church, which would be male.

Furthermore, here are some other possible scenarios where a woman might be active: If a church reserved a Wednesday night service to teach Greek or Hebrew then it would be permissible for a woman to teach Greek or Hebrew or church history to a church if done under the official leaders of the church.


Some challenging thoughts to our views:

We Sovereign Grace Churches often know by heart that a woman should keep silent. I am afraid, however, that we often get reactionary in our circles and do not see what women CAN do. Here are a few challenging thoughts for us to consider:

---In Romans 16, Paul mentions 35 people to greet - and 11 are women. Women are mentioned as the synergois of Paul - coworkers or co-labourers; though none are listed in leadership roles. Thus, in Romans 16:3 Priscilla is called a sunergos - a fellow worker and not merely "a missionary's wife"; whereas in several of our churches my wife is never called a missionary, nor are we called a missionary family – but I am introduced as “Missionary TJ, and his wife T.” 

---In I Corinthians 16:16 we have Paul's injunction to the Corinthians to be subject to the house of Stephanas and "to every fellow worker" (panti sunergounti). Priscilla, Euodia and Syntyche are all called fellow workers. Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis are also said to have “labored in the Lord” but we are not told in what sort of field they labored. Admittedly, the term “fellow-laborer” is vague and need not indicate ecclesiastical authority. These verses, however, could indicate that specific and special assignments were even given to certain female co-workers who acted underneath the official leadership of a church or under the official leadership of Paul’s missionary band, i.e, Paul or the church might have given them special roles or assignments to carry out, such as letter-delivery, updates on the work in other parts where Paul was working, we don’t know (I.e. women could be active and respected and seen as part of the laborers of the church and still not usurp any leadership authority because all that they are doing is underneath the leadership of the church). They could even be sent to other churches or areas to fulfill some function underneath the male ecclesiastical structure of the church. I could imagine Paul sending news through female fellow-workers to other regions to have these or that supplies ready when he gets there, and that woman servant being charged with fulfilling that task.

---Also, females seemed key in organizing and hosting the house-churches of early Christianity and they were very active and even seemed to head up some tasks in the early church, though the heading up of task does not indicate leadership because all is done subordinately to the male headship of the church.




*MY POINT: *

My point is this - there are many, many things that women do in ministry (in the lower 'm' sense of the word). 

A woman on the mission field can be more than "the wife of a missionary" and a woman need not be introduced, like my wife has been in our circles merely in this manner; "Let me introduce missionary TJ – and his wife T.” There is nothing wrong with calling a woman a missionary (mitto, apostolos, a "sent-out one") or a “fellow-worker” or “fellow labourer” in the Gospel. This seems to follow NT practice. 

I believe us Sovereign Grace Churches are often reactionary and some may limit the role of women in ways that need not be limited. Our desire should be to empower every member in our churches to the fullest extent possible, yet the emphasis in our churches is often what women cannot do rather than what they can, in fact, do.

Furthermore, in Titus 2 women are commanded to teach other women. It appears reasonable that children being the domain of the home would also rightly fall under this teaching realm (II Tim 1:5 and the examples of Lois and Eunice). These appear not to be optional suggestions but commanded obligations for the church to follow.

Furthermore, Priscilla yielded much service in partnership with her husband and helped teach Apollos better in the ways of the Lord. She appears active in the exchange with Apollos and not merely silent. She is even called “a fellow-laborer” too and not merely “the wife of a fellow-labourer, Aquila.” She is a full partner in ministry – within her God ordained limitations. She is active and a vital part of the ministry, though always under the teaching authority of her husband in such a way as to be actively teaching and explaining the Gospel even to the man Apollos without "usurping" any authority from her husband. She is not merely commended for being quiet and keeping to the kitchen but Paul always mentions the two of them as a pair and this mention of them is remarkable. 

I believe that women can teach some subjects to mixed audiences such a Greek, Hebrew, or perhaps church history (I am not dogmatic on the particular subjects). Gifted female writers may write Christian fiction, curriculum for Sunday Schools or other programs, and do editing and even some scholarly writing having to do with Biblical subjects. I believe that females are free to pray and sing and to request prayer and to even give testimonies if invited to do so by the teaching authority of the church. 
I believe that outside the church, women can share one’s faith freely, give answers to anyone about Bible subjects if asked, and to pray for others, whether male or female. I believe that women can play key roles in missionary efforts and can organize prayer groups targeted towards women and children. Men who come into these groups need not be rejected.

*

SUMMARY:*

At present I work with 2 female evangelists in Province X and one female evangelist in Province P. All of these female evangelists believe as we do about the role of women in the church and there is not a single party among us that believes that women ought to preach or perform the duties of a deacon, elder or pastor. Church leaders should be male.

At present in Province X S__ and E__ are very productive and their ministry has borne much fruit – fruit that mostly consists of poor females and children. Presently, we are trying to organize a church but cannot find men with enough intestinal fortitude to match the boldness of these women. At present, S___ and E___ target only women and children but will not refuse the waters of life to anyone who asks it. Due to this, occasionally they end up instructing a man. 


Also, due to their role in evangelizing others they do utilize the term “evangelist” in reference to themselves. They also use the term, “Servant of the Lord,” which I prefer. However, I have not quibbled over these terms.

While we try to utilize the gifts of females within the church to the fullest extent possible, we have no intention of going beyond Scripture. At the first opportunity, this prayer group will be organized as a church when male leadership is found. 

One possible solution to relieve the tensions involved in this situation is for Sovereign Grace churches to send more of their good men over here to serve.




Your humble servant, working in less than ideal settings,


Pergy


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## TimV

The above starts with this



> They target women and children specifically. However, they do not turn men away. There are a few men in attendance. Where else would the men go?



and ends with




> At present, S___ and E___ target only women and children but will not refuse the waters of life to anyone who asks it. Due to this, occasionally they end up instructing a man.



Which is the age old difference between practical Calvinism and practical Arminianism. In the one case the question of where the men would go is answered by saying God is the author of salvation and doesn't need man's helping by breaking the rules. In the other, salvation is a work of man, so man's tools need to be used.


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## Kim G

TimV said:


> Which is the age old difference between practical Calvinism and practical Arminianism. In the one case the question of where the men would go is answered by saying God is the author of salvation and doesn't need man's helping by breaking the rules. In the other, salvation is a work of man, so man's tools need to be used.



Are you saying that a woman cannot proclaim the gospel to a man? I would hope that if the Lord granted me an opportunity to talk to any of my (many) male coworkers, that I would have the spiritual strength to share the Lord's Word with them.

WE'RE NOT TALKING A FORMAL MESSAGE AT A CHURCH SERVICE.


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## Pergamum

Tim:

If you worked with women evangelists in a very dark area and these two women evangelists were approached in their own private home by a local religious leader of another faith, is it a good or a bad thing for those women to give an answer to the local cleric?


Did you read the whole thing or just cruise the text for easy potshots and careless writing?


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## TimV

Perg, please don't forget that I have spent more time (I think) than you in third world countries, and I've (due to having started before you were out of grammar school, you still being young and handsome) had a chance to have given the matter enough thought that I don't need to engage in drive by. Thanks.




> Are you saying that a woman cannot proclaim the gospel to a man? I would hope that if the Lord granted me an opportunity to talk to any of my (many) male coworkers, that I would have the spiritual strength to share the Lord's Word with them.
> 
> WE'RE NOT TALKING A FORMAL MESSAGE AT A CHURCH SERVICE.



We are talking about a church planting work carried out by female evangelists taking place at their place of worship.

I don't for a moment doubt that you would have the courage to talk to your male coworkers about the Gospel, Kim.


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## Pergamum

TIM: You can be old and wrong too.


In the Middle East society and other Muslim areas, it is very segregated. Men would not normally have the access to reach Muslim women. If some woman are moved to go reach those isolated women or even use their private residences as a place of prayer, then what of it? 

If a man approaches a woman and asks for the Gospel, we can refer them later to a church, but at that moment why turn them down and cite gender differences?


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## Neopatriarch

Pergamum: "Right now, it appears that the 'best man' for the job are two frail women and S___ and E__ are carrying on under less than ideal circumstances hoping to turn their group over to male leadership."

I understand you to mean that S__ and E__ are acting as 'stand-ins' for a man so that they end up teaching and exercising authority over men, albeit temporarily. 

Pergamum: "It is clear that only men can occupy ecclesiastical authority in the church ('teach or have authority over a man.' - I Tim 2:12)."

In 1 Timothy 2:12-14 Paul is proscribing women from teaching or exercising authority over men on the basis of the order of creation. He is making a specific application of a more general principle. I'm not sure we can legitimately restrict applications of the general principle to questions of ecclesiastical authority. Men and women are essentially different. How far are we allowed to go in suppressing these natural differences? . . . but perhaps this is the wrong question.

Of course, being an evangelist and a minister is fine. We should all be evangelizing and ministering. The issue is whether S__ and E__ are violating 1 Tim 2:12.


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## Pergamum

Yes, I do not believe that they are violating I Timothy. A church is not yet organized, they are targetting women and children and are looking for a pastor to take over. The only people invited are women. 

The only point in which they would be in violation is what to do with local men who come and ask to hear more. 


My question for many here is why an overly restrictive view of ecclesiology would actually deny the Gospel being told to those who are begging for it. 

These women, very dear friends, who are very conservative theologically and surely do not want to do no usurping, are caught in a hard situation. 

Do they turn the occasional man away or allow him to hear the Gospel as they teach these women?


It seems that if we push the point that these women cannot teach in their own homes when they are targetting women, that we would need to forbid any gathering of women together to pray at all, lest a man accidentally stumbles upon them and gets taught something.


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## ManleyBeasley

I can't see a problem with women sharing the gospel with men who come to hear it. If they aren't seeking to have some sort of pastoral authority what could be wrong? I say, praise God the gospel is being preached!


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## Kim G

ManleyBeasley said:


> I say, praise God the gospel is being preached!


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## larryjf

I would think the problem lies in the definition of "evangelist." I know for the PCA an evangelist does carry authority...technically even more than a Teaching Elder.

I wouldn't see any problem with women telling people about the Gospel, so long as they did not authoritatively do so.

I don't agree that the authority involved with such things is only for church settings either, as it seems some believe...

_I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)
_

This passage points to creation and the fall of man as a reason why women are not to exercise authority over men. So i think this goes beyond the local church setting.


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## CharlieJ

Go for it, Pergy! I'd come stand beside you personally, except that I'm convinced that USA is God's will for my family at this stage in life. 

I think it would be hard to "usurp" the authority of a man when there are no men. I also don't think that they are "exercising authority" over men in the way Paul is speaking. As far as "teaching" goes, that's a little trickier, but giving the gospel to people is certainly not the same as assuming the mantle of teacher. 

Are these women in any way connected to some ecclesiastical group, and does the group approve of their ministry? If so, I don't see how others on the outside can pass judgment.


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## Pergamum

larryjf said:


> I would think the problem lies in the definition of "evangelist." I know for the PCA an evangelist does carry authority...technically even more than a Teaching Elder.
> 
> I wouldn't see any problem with women telling people about the Gospel, so long as they did not authoritatively do so.
> 
> I don't agree that the authority involved with such things is only for church settings either, as it seems some believe...
> 
> _I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)
> _
> 
> This passage points to creation and the fall of man as a reason why women are not to exercise authority over men. So i think this goes beyond the local church setting.



Can a woman then talk about religion with a man in their private home?


Why do we allow women on the PB then? Shouldn't they only keep quiet and not post them, except to say thanks or Amen? We need to keep them on a shorter leash.


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## larryjf

Pergamum said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think the problem lies in the definition of "evangelist." I know for the PCA an evangelist does carry authority...technically even more than a Teaching Elder.
> 
> I wouldn't see any problem with women telling people about the Gospel, so long as they did not authoritatively do so.
> 
> I don't agree that the authority involved with such things is only for church settings either, as it seems some believe...
> 
> _I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)
> _
> 
> This passage points to creation and the fall of man as a reason why women are not to exercise authority over men. So i think this goes beyond the local church setting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can a woman then talk about religion with a man in their private home?
> 
> 
> Why do we allow women on the PB then? Shouldn't they only keep quiet and not post them, except to say thanks or Amen? We need to keep them on a shorter leash.
Click to expand...


Yes, they can talk about religion anywhere...even in church.
The "remain quite" is in direct contradistinction to the "exercising authority over men" and goes back to verse 11 which states that women are to learn quietly.


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## Pergamum

CharlieJ said:


> Go for it, Pergy! I'd come stand beside you personally, except that I'm convinced that USA is God's will for my family at this stage in life.
> 
> I think it would be hard to "usurp" the authority of a man when there are no men. I also don't think that they are "exercising authority" over men in the way Paul is speaking. As far as "teaching" goes, that's a little trickier, but giving the gospel to people is certainly not the same as assuming the mantle of teacher.
> 
> Are these women in any way connected to some ecclesiastical group, and does the group approve of their ministry? If so, I don't see how others on the outside can pass judgment.



I sponsor and advise. The team is led by a local man, Mr N, he is sent forth with blessings by the church from which he came out from (which he also started - but that was then made into a "regular" church and a legal church too by adoption into a larger denomination...). 



These women use the term evangelist in a little "e" way - it is an informal title and not a title of church office. 

They also call themselves "The Lord's Servants" which is a common phrasing and for which I prefer for myself and others (call me Mr. Informal).


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