# Completely Free Online Reformed Seminary



## larryjf

Just wanted to let everybody know of this ministry.
The North American Reformed Seminary is a completely free, online, Reformed seminary.

If anyone is willing to help the school out, we would love to have some more folks on board.

If anyone is interested in becoming a student, we would love to have them sign up as well.


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## mr_burns

Thank for the reminder. I've seen this posted elsewhere. It is very intriguing. The course work looks pretty intense. A really good viable option for those not worried about the piece of paper... Also noticed that less than 4% who start actually finish... guess that is one problem with free... little easier to "blow off." 

I noticed several "we"s in there... what is your role with the program?

Also, as a designer, I love the minimalist approach to the site... however, launching a new page for every link is pretty annoying.


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## larryjf

Mr. Burns,

I am a member of the Research Department. The Research Dept. manages the school and mentors the students.

I am probably going to get rid of the new window links to the tnars website pages...but we have been so concerned with getting the academics up that this has taken a lower priority.


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## Zenas

Do ya'll have a summer program or let people take single couses a semester?

I'm currently in law school, but would like a seminary education very much. Just no time or $$.


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## JM

Covenant Worldwide has free downloads, The Theology Program is also online for free but I doubt it's Reformed and then you have Biblical Training. I noticed NARS uses courses and outlines from TTP and BT.

j


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## larryjf

Zenas said:


> Do ya'll have a summer program or let people take single couses a semester?
> 
> I'm currently in law school, but would like a seminary education very much. Just no time or $$.



You can start the programs any time you want, and you can go as fast or as slowly as you like.
The Admissions page has the details of what we need from the student to start the program.


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## larryjf

JM said:


> Covenant Worldwide has free downloads, The Theology Program is also online for free but I doubt it's Reformed and then you have Biblical Training. I noticed NARS uses courses and outlines from TTP and BT.
> 
> j



Yes.
We use free resources that are found on the internet. That's one of the ways we keep the program free.
We also use copyright-free books found on sites such as Welcome | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

If i'm not mistaken we only have about 6 classes from The Theology Program, and they are at the Associate degree level. I'm not sure which ones you would consider non-Reformed, but if you could give more details about that we could certainly change the class requirements.


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## Zenas

I see I need a letter of rec. from a church officer. Can I recommend myself? 

*Knew that being a deacon had to entail more than getting complained to about the color of the fellowship hall walls*


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## larryjf

Zenas said:


> I see I need a letter of rec. from a church officer. Can I recommend myself?
> 
> *Knew that being a deacon had to entail more than getting complained to about the color of the fellowship hall walls*



One of the reasons we ask for a church officer to give a recommendation is so that we have someone local to the student who has spiritual oversight of them. We are not only interested in the academic, but also the spiritual growth of the student. When we get the recommendation from a church officer they are able to follow up with the students education, and we are able to contact that officer if we want to find out what's going on in the student's life at the local level.


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## ChristopherPaul

Interesting.

How many students are currently enrolled?


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## larryjf

ChristopherPaul said:


> Interesting.
> 
> How many students are currently enrolled?



The current number of enrolled students is 3, with another who is just starting the process of enrolling.


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## Zenas

I think I might definiatly be interested in a class or two this summer, maybe before then I don't know.

I'll ask my pastor what he thiks and get him to take a look. I'm afraid it might be too much for me right now to try to take on an extra seminary class with the law load I have, although I want to do so very badly. I have to make good grades in order to get married, and I think that trumps my interest in this, at least for right now.


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## ReformationArt

I am happy to know of this resource!

However, in taking a quick glance at the Master of Theology curriculum, I am struck that at the great disparity between the work required at NARS and other Reformed seminaries.

For instance, the 3 systematic theology courses each only require reading of one book (each of the three courses requires one volume of Hodge's ST), and writing a number of essays. However, one of the great benefits of seminary is not just getting a reading list, but the lectures, the explanations, the proddings of the experienced and learned professors, and interaction with other students. These seem to be absent from the NARS program, except for interaction with the mentor. However, the question remains as to the giftedness of each mentor, the time they have to give, the quality of interaction, etc.

I've done a good bit of thinking along these lines myself, as I started and run the Amarillo Theological Institute. However, our ST courses are currently taped lectures from Reformed Seminaries, and the required reading from those courses are made available in the church library, while I facilitate discussion with the students. However, I make it clear that ATI in no way takes the place of the seminary. in my opinion, NARS looks good for a lay person, or a RE or Deacon candidate who wants to learn more. I don't see it as in the same league as the training that is taking place at other Reformed seminaries (at this time). 

However, I do encourage you to keep plodding forward in your efforts to help others grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!


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## ChristopherPaul

larryjf said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> How many students are currently enrolled?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current number of enrolled students is 3, with another who is just starting the process of enrolling.
Click to expand...




What is the 4% completed based on? How long has this program been available?

My intention is not to grill you, I think this is a great program for the layman and I am interested to see how well it has been going.


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## ChristopherPaul

ReformationArt said:


> I am happy to know of this resource!
> 
> However, in taking a quick glance at the Master of Theology curriculum, I am struck that at the great disparity between the work required at NARS and other Reformed seminaries.
> 
> For instance, the 3 systematic theology courses each only require reading of one book (each of the three courses requires one volume of Hodge's ST), and writing a number of essays. However, one of the great benefits of seminary is not just getting a reading list, but the lectures, the explanations, the proddings of the experienced and learned professors, and interaction with other students. These seem to be absent from the NARS program, except for interaction with the mentor. However, the question remains as to the giftedness of each mentor, the time they have to give, the quality of interaction, etc.
> 
> I've done a good bit of thinking along these lines myself, as I started and run the Amarillo Theological Institute. However, our ST courses are currently taped lectures from Reformed Seminaries, and the required reading from those courses are made available in the church library, while I facilitate discussion with the students. However, I make it clear that ATI in no way takes the place of the seminary. in my opinion, NARS looks good for a lay person, or a RE or Deacon candidate who wants to learn more. I don't see it as in the same league as the training that is taking place at other Reformed seminaries (at this time).
> 
> However, I do encourage you to keep plodding forward in your efforts to help others grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!



This is inline with my thoughts as I look at the site. 

I am encouraged that such a resource is available; however, I do not agree that a person is qualified to be an ordained Teaching Elder after completing such a curriculum. There is much more required to be prepared for such a calling than reading certain books, listening to lectures and writing essays. 

I think such a program is outstanding for the layman who aspires to be in a non-pastoral office such as Deacon or Ruling elder or even just to better equip him in general.


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## larryjf

ReformationArt said:


> I am happy to know of this resource!
> 
> However, in taking a quick glance at the Master of Theology curriculum, I am struck that at the great disparity between the work required at NARS and other Reformed seminaries.
> 
> For instance, the 3 systematic theology courses each only require reading of one book (each of the three courses requires one volume of Hodge's ST), and writing a number of essays. However, one of the great benefits of seminary is not just getting a reading list, but the lectures, the explanations, the proddings of the experienced and learned professors, and interaction with other students. These seem to be absent from the NARS program, except for interaction with the mentor. However, the question remains as to the giftedness of each mentor, the time they have to give, the quality of interaction, etc.
> 
> I've done a good bit of thinking along these lines myself, as I started and run the Amarillo Theological Institute. However, our ST courses are currently taped lectures from Reformed Seminaries, and the required reading from those courses are made available in the church library, while I facilitate discussion with the students. However, I make it clear that ATI in no way takes the place of the seminary. in my opinion, NARS looks good for a lay person, or a RE or Deacon candidate who wants to learn more. I don't see it as in the same league as the training that is taking place at other Reformed seminaries (at this time).
> 
> However, I do encourage you to keep plodding forward in your efforts to help others grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!



Some of our courses have lectures, others do not. For the Th.M. program notice that classes such as "Disputation of Martin Luther", "Calvin's Institutes", and others have lectures that are part of the class work.


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## larryjf

ChristopherPaul said:


> What is the 4% completed based on? How long has this program been available?
> 
> My intention is not to grill you, I think this is a great program for the layman and I am interested to see how well it has been going.



Excellent question.
TNARS was connected to the North American Theological Society(NATS) for a time. NATS claimed adherence to the Westminster Standards, so many of us were confident of their theological perspective. It was later found out that NATS denied the doctrine of the Trinity and were, in fact, modalist. Upon learning of this I discussed the issue with the founder of NATS so as to show him the errors of modalism and why the Trinity was a biblical teaching. After some discussion it was shown that he was not convicted that the Trinity is a true doctrine. It was at this point that many of us left NATS and separated TNARS from the institution.

So...the school was around before it's current state as a seminary under NATS oversight. And it is this track record that gives us the 4% number. I'm not sure how long NATS has been in existence, but i think at least a few years. TNARS, in its current state, has only been around for a few weeks.


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## larryjf

ChristopherPaul said:


> This is inline with my thoughts as I look at the site.
> 
> I am encouraged that such a resource is available; however, I do not agree that a person is qualified to be an ordained Teaching Elder after completing such a curriculum. There is much more required to be prepared for such a calling than reading certain books, listening to lectures and writing essays.
> 
> I think such a program is outstanding for the layman who aspires to be in a non-pastoral office such as Deacon or Ruling elder or even just to better equip him in general.



I understand. I'm sure there will be quite a few folks who feel the same way.

Personally, i don't think that any seminary makes a person qualified to be ordained as a TE. I think there is much more to it than an education...like piety.

That's one of the things we try to get across at TNARS...not only academics, but practical living out God's Word in the lives of the students. That's why we seek to mentor them not only in their studies, but also in their walk with God, and get their church officers involved with it.

Perhaps you could be more specific as to what else should be required from a school. It's hard to improve the program with general remarks...with more specifics we can work to improve the program.


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## Stephen

This looks like a great resource, but I have a few questions:
1. Who teaches the courses?
2. How do you cover your costs if it is "free"? (remember the old addage: nothing is free)
3. How do you receive students? Do you not check references and attest their gifts before admitting them to the program?
4. How is the seminary governed?
5. What is the difference between a PhD and a Doctorate in Theology?

Thank you.


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## Stephen

I am sorry, I see you may have answered some of my questions.


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## larryjf

Stephen said:


> This looks like a great resource, but I have a few questions:
> 1. Who teaches the courses?
> 2. How do you cover your costs if it is "free"? (remember the old addage: nothing is free)
> 3. How do you receive students? Do you not check references and attest their gifts before admitting them to the program?
> 4. How is the seminary governed?
> 5. What is the difference between a PhD and a Doctorate in Theology?
> 
> Thank you.



1. The Research Department contains those who teach the courses. Many may be involved with the grading, but only one would be the mentor and direct teacher of a particular student.

2. The cost is covered...all materials are available for free, all Research Dept. members volunteer their time...so we could use many more volunteers.

3. The "admissions" page specifies how a student becomes enrolled. Basically three things are required...
* Statement of Christian experience
* Letter of recommendation from a church officer
* Statement of your agreement with our doctrinal standards, explaining any disagreements that you have to it.

4. It is governed directly by the Research Department.

5. Why do you ask?...we don't offer either.


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## Stephen

larryjf said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like a great resource, but I have a few questions:
> 1. Who teaches the courses?
> 2. How do you cover your costs if it is "free"? (remember the old addage: nothing is free)
> 3. How do you receive students? Do you not check references and attest their gifts before admitting them to the program?
> 4. How is the seminary governed?
> 5. What is the difference between a PhD and a Doctorate in Theology?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Research Department contains those who teach the courses. Many may be involved with the grading, but only one would be the mentor and direct teacher of a particular student.
> 
> 2. The cost is covered...all materials are available for free, all Research Dept. members volunteer their time...so we could use many more volunteers.
> 
> 3. The "admissions" page specifies how a student becomes enrolled. Basically three things are required...
> * Statement of Christian experience
> * Letter of recommendation from a church officer
> * Statement of your agreement with our doctrinal standards, explaining any disagreements that you have to it.
> 
> 4. It is governed directly by the Research Department.
> 
> 5. Why do you ask?...we don't offer either.
Click to expand...


I am sorry I meant to say Doctor of Divinity.  I was curious because many pastors are doing PhD work and I was curious what the difference was between the two.


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## larryjf

Stephen said:


> I am sorry I meant to say Doctor of Divinity.  I was curious because many pastors are doing PhD work and I was curious what the difference was between the two.




We are not legally permitted to award a Ph.D.
The D.D. is specific to divinity whereas the Ph.D. is not. A Ph.D. can be in just about any subject.


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## ReformationArt

larryjf said:


> Perhaps you could be more specific as to what else should be required from a school. It's hard to improve the program with general remarks...with more specifics we can work to improve the program.



Larry, this is a fair point. My advice would be for the men on the research council to dialogue with professors at seminaries such as WSC, WTS, Covenant, RTS, etc., to collect syllabi from courses and see what materials is being covered, what readings are required, etc.

You can purchase lectures of many different courses through Westminster Media: Westminster Bookstore - Reformed Books - Low Prices - $5 Shipping - Westminster Media
And you can contact the professor to request the syllabus. I just completed Dr. Gaffin's Intro to ST course with 5 men in Amarillo, and it was very profitable. Next, we are going to listen to Dr. Strimple's Doctrine of Man course, available from WSC: Westminster Seminary California Bookstore

I highly recommend you purchasing the three courses by Dr. Strimple. They each come with the course syllabus that details what is taught, what readings are required on what topics, etc...

This will give you an idea of how your current curriculum compares to what most TE's in the OPC and PCA are receiving, and will help you to continue re-forming it.


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## Pilgrim

What is the relationship between this and the Wittenberg Reformed Theological Seminary, which appears to have basically the same faculty? Is the free seminary geared more toward the layman or those preparing to be an RE whereas Wittenberg (not free but very inexpensive) aimed more at those preparing for ministry?


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## larryjf

Pilgrim said:


> What is the relationship between this and the Wittenberg Reformed Theological Seminary, which appears to have basically the same faculty? Is the free seminary geared more toward the layman or those preparing to be an RE whereas Wittenberg (not free but very inexpensive) aimed more at those preparing for ministry?



The main difference is in what will be able to be taught by each.

Because TNARS is completely free we are unable to teach from modern, copyright protected texts...so the education comes mostly from older textbooks.

WRTS will be a modern school with the students paying tuition and buying their own textbooks. 

WRTS is also more confessional in nature than TNARS. TNARS seeks to be more broadly Reformed.

WRTS plans on paying teachers a percentage of the tuition received in the beginning, and moving toward giving salary if the seminary expands enough to do so. Further, a long-term goal would be to set up a brick and mortar school and receive accreditation from ARTS.


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## LadyFlynt

Would any courses be transferable from one to the other?


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## larryjf

LadyFlynt said:


> Would any courses be transferable from one to the other?



That's a little harder to say. It would be up to the WRTS Board of Directors.

I would think that the courses would transfer over, but WRTS is still not fully established. We still have to create the curriculum, become incorporated, and do a few other things to be actually operational. The Board is conducting business, but it is mostly centered on getting WRTS up and running at this point...so these types of questions will take a back seat.

But again, i would think they would transfer.


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## LadyFlynt

Okay, I wasn't aware the WRTS was still in the planning stages.


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## larryjf

ReformationArt said:


> Larry, this is a fair point. My advice would be for the men on the research council to dialogue with professors at seminaries such as WSC, WTS, Covenant, RTS, etc., to collect syllabi from courses and see what materials is being covered, what readings are required, etc.
> 
> You can purchase lectures of many different courses through Westminster Media: Westminster Bookstore - Reformed Books - Low Prices - $5 Shipping - Westminster Media
> And you can contact the professor to request the syllabus. I just completed Dr. Gaffin's Intro to ST course with 5 men in Amarillo, and it was very profitable. Next, we are going to listen to Dr. Strimple's Doctrine of Man course, available from WSC: Westminster Seminary California Bookstore
> 
> I highly recommend you purchasing the three courses by Dr. Strimple. They each come with the course syllabus that details what is taught, what readings are required on what topics, etc...
> 
> This will give you an idea of how your current curriculum compares to what most TE's in the OPC and PCA are receiving, and will help you to continue re-forming it.



One of the things is that we can't "purchase" anything, nor do we want the student to have to purchase anything. The main goal is to have a completely free education.

One of the ways this serves the Body of Christ is in training up folks no matter what their financial status...which i believe is a biblical model. Why should only those who can afford (or afford to go into debt) be eligible for the ministry?

I question whether it's even biblical for someone to go into debt in order to enter the ministry.

After incurring a large debt for seminary, what do you think the chances are that the graduate will serve a small church in a low income area? Isn't more likely that they would seek out a church that can help them pay off their debt?

Besides that, there are places that we are serving outside of the U.S. We are currently working with a small Reformed denomination in the Bosnia/Croatia area. They have no seminary, and this would be a way to train men to minister to this small but growing denomination. They have not made a decision about TNARS, and one of the obstacles would be language, but there is an opportunity.


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## ReformationArt

larryjf said:


> One of the things is that we can't "purchase" anything, nor do we want the student to have to purchase anything. The main goal is to have a completely free education.



I think this is a mistake. You can't purchase a set of cd's to help you form a curriculum? You can't ask a student to purchase a book? A pastor's library is one of his most valuable tools! 

I think you've shot yourself in the foot before walking out onto the track. Good training is worth an investment (by somebody). If you want to make the best possible training available for free, then that's great!!! However, don't take these short cuts and then claim to men that by going through your curriculum they will be trained for the gospel ministry. Otherwise, seek donors to make a quality education available for free.


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## Zenas

I don't think we should be questioning the program per se, and I don't think anyone in particular is suggesting that this be a viable alternative to an M.Div from an accredited seminary for a Teaching Elder. I do think this is a great idea for deacons and ruling elders, as well as anyone who wants this level of education but doesn't have the large amounts of time or money to ship themselves off to St. Louis, Jackson, etc. to go to a Reformed Seminary. 

At one point I want to attend seminary and get an M.Th and maybe a Th.D, but that time is not now and it may not occur for 20 years. Until then, I think a program like this is a great alternative, if for nothing else personal study and edification.


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## Herald

Larry,

Great concept that could truly benefit the body of Christ. I used to believe that free was good, now I am not so sure. I share your concerns about going into debt in order to finance a college education, but I am convinced that some tuition cost is justified in order to have complete buy-in from the student. I know that when I pay for something I more apt to appreciate it than if it is given to me for free. There are some exceptions but it is a normally the rule.

Please keep us updated as your school develops. May God use it for His glory.


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## DavidinKnoxville

ReformationArt said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things is that we can't "purchase" anything, nor do we want the student to have to purchase anything. The main goal is to have a completely free education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a mistake. You can't purchase a set of cd's to help you form a curriculum? You can't ask a student to purchase a book? A pastor's library is one of his most valuable tools!
> 
> I think you've shot yourself in the foot before walking out onto the track. Good training is worth an investment (by somebody). If you want to make the best possible training available for free, then that's great!!! However, don't take these short cuts and then claim to men that by going through your curriculum they will be trained for the gospel ministry. Otherwise, seek donors to make a quality education available for free.
Click to expand...


With all due respect, I don't think he has "shot himself in the foot". There are plenty of men who have shelled out thousands of $$ for a degree and are not 'trained for gospel ministry". (Again respectfully) How can you make this kind of critque fairly without going through it yourself/evaluating several men who have gone through the course? 

Larry, I personally think this is a great idea and feel you have raised some excellent points. Requiring godly men to go into debt to become ministers of the gospel is unbiblical and has been a source of frustration for me personally. God bless you and I will look into this when I have more time.


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## ReformationArt

DavidinKnoxville said:


> With all due respect, I don't think he has "shot himself in the foot". There are plenty of men who have shelled out thousands of $$ for a degree and are not 'trained for gospel ministry". (Again respectfully) How can you make this kind of critque fairly without going through it yourself/evaluating several men who have gone through the course.



What I am saying is that it is an unnecessary hinderance to training to say up front that we as an institution won't incur any costs. I'm only working with 5 guys in my class, and the church spends money on them. We print materials for them, we purchase books to have in the library for them. These are basic necessary resources for good learning. Now, the cost is minimal, about 1/10th of tuition at a normal seminary. However, it seems unreasonable to make a rule for yourself at the beginning that you won't purchase anything.

I am making a judgment that only reading Hodge's ST (however good it is, and I do like it, own it, read it, recommend it), and writing some short papers on it is adequate training in systematic theology. It is a good start, but it is only that, a start. 

There are a number of great resources, other writings that are available for free online. It doesn't take thousands of dollars to put together a good reading list for a course. However, to do it well, it requires some funds.

I'm not a fan of spending tons of money on education. I don't particularly like being saddled with hefty student loans after 4 years of college and 4 years of seminary. However, I do believe the training I received was worth it. Otherwise I would be selling my church short by getting second-rate training.

There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free." Especially if you have to cut corners to do so. For instance, according to a recent PB poll, Reymond's ST is the best thing since sliced bread. However, it can't be used in the curriculum b/c it has to be purchased.

Do you want your pastors to have the best training, or the cheapest???
Would you go to a surgeon who went to a "free" medical school somewhere, or do you want him to have had the best education possible, despite the cost?


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## larryjf

ReformationArt said:


> What I am saying is that it is an unnecessary hinderance *[sic]* to training to say up front that we as an institution won't incur any costs. I'm only working with 5 guys in my class, and the church spends money on them. We print materials for them, we purchase books to have in the library for them. These are basic necessary resources for good learning. Now, the cost is minimal, about 1/10th of tuition at a normal seminary. However, it seems unreasonable to make a rule for yourself at the beginning that you won't purchase anything.


I disagree that it is inherently a hindrance to be completely free.
I also disagree that a physical library is a basic necessary resource for learning in the age of information that we live in, with the internet providing so much more than your library probably contains.



ReformationArt said:


> I am making a judgment that only reading Hodge's ST (however good it is, and I do like it, own it, read it, recommend it), and writing some short papers on it is adequate training in systematic theology. It is a good start, but it is only that, a start.


Again, not really helpful. What else would you require for systematic theology? 



ReformationArt said:


> There are a number of great resources, other writings that are available for free online. It doesn't take thousands of dollars to put together a good reading list for a course. However, to do it well, it requires some funds.


Where are you getting the idea that to do something well you can't do it for free? This "get what you pay for" secular philosophy is part of the problem...that's why so many pay so much for their education, then have to dry up the funds in the church that they serve in to pay off their debt.



ReformationArt said:


> I'm not a fan of spending tons of money on education. I don't particularly like being saddled with hefty student loans after 4 years of college and 4 years of seminary. However, I do believe the training I received was worth it. Otherwise I would be selling my church short by getting second-rate training.


Either you do believe that you get what you pay for or you don't...it seems you are trying to have it both ways.
How about those churches that can't afford to pay someone enough to pay off their debt? Should they simply not exist? Should they have untrained pastors?



ReformationArt said:


> There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free." Especially if you have to cut corners to do so. For instance, according to a recent PB poll, Reymond's ST is the best thing since sliced bread. However, it can't be used in the curriculum b/c it has to be purchased.


Just as there is nothing inherent that makes being free a hindrance.
And, i think we can use Reymond's ST if we get a membership to the Bible Centre.



ReformationArt said:


> Do you want your pastors to have the best training, or the cheapest???
> Would you go to a surgeon who went to a "free" medical school somewhere, or do you want him to have had the best education possible, despite the cost?


I would not judge my pastor on how much he paid for his education. I would judge my pastor through examination of his knowledge, beliefs, and life among other things.


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## DavidinKnoxville

ReformationArt said:


> DavidinKnoxville said:
> 
> 
> 
> With all due respect, I don't think he has "shot himself in the foot". There are plenty of men who have shelled out thousands of $$ for a degree and are not 'trained for gospel ministry". (Again respectfully) How can you make this kind of critque fairly without going through it yourself/evaluating several men who have gone through the course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I am saying is that it is an unnecessary hinderance to training to say up front that we as an institution won't incur any costs. I'm only working with 5 guys in my class, and the church spends money on them. We print materials for them, we purchase books to have in the library for them. These are basic necessary resources for good learning. Now, the cost is minimal, about 1/10th of tuition at a normal seminary. However, it seems unreasonable to make a rule for yourself at the beginning that you won't purchase anything.
> 
> I am making a judgment that only reading Hodge's ST (however good it is, and I do like it, own it, read it, recommend it), and writing some short papers on it is adequate training in systematic theology. It is a good start, but it is only that, a start.
> 
> There are a number of great resources, other writings that are available for free online. It doesn't take thousands of dollars to put together a good reading list for a course. However, to do it well, it requires some funds.
> 
> I'm not a fan of spending tons of money on education. I don't particularly like being saddled with hefty student loans after 4 years of college and 4 years of seminary. However, I do believe the training I received was worth it. Otherwise I would be selling my church short by getting second-rate training.
> 
> There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free." Especially if you have to cut corners to do so. For instance, according to a recent PB poll, Reymond's ST is the best thing since sliced bread. However, it can't be used in the curriculum b/c it has to be purchased.
> 
> Do you want your pastors to have the best training, or the cheapest???
> Would you go to a surgeon who went to a "free" medical school somewhere, or do you want him to have had the best education possible, despite the cost?
Click to expand...


Elijah must have spent a fortune on getting ready for his gospel ministry. *laugh*

Spiritual gifts are not dependent on man and his institutions so your medical school/seminary school comparison is fallacious. If that was the case then the kingdom would have already come by now. That is my point.

There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free" but there is something inherently sinister about peddling the gospel for cash.

Respectfully,
David


----------



## KMK

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Larry,
> 
> Great concept that could truly benefit the body of Christ. I used to believe that free was good, now I am not so sure. I share your concerns about going into debt in order to finance a college education, but I am convinced that some tuition cost is justified in order to have complete buy-in from the student. I know that when I pay for something I more apt to appreciate it than if it is given to me for free. There are some exceptions but it is a normally the rule.
> 
> Please keep us updated as your school develops. May God use it for His glory.



I agree. I used to be involved with a company that taught SAT test prep. We would go into High Schools and give seminars. They were mainly justs to whet the students' (parents') appetite and get them to sign up for the actual course.

We found when you offered the seminar for free it was actually taken less seriously. Less would attend and those who did would not put forth a good effort. When we charged a fee, more attended and took it much more seriously.

During our talks with school officials in setting up the conferences we would check out what kinds of shoes the students were wearing and then the fee would be the same as the price of an average pair of shoes. (Wealthier kids wear more expensive shoes) It worked out very well.


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## larryjf

Perhaps if we had a cover charge for Church people would take that more seriously as well.

Let's not compare the Church to the world.


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## DavidinKnoxville

Please check out this post:

http://www.puritanboard.com/348170-post43.html

_For someone who has been seeking a call, with no geographical limits to the search. I found those statements about going for less money okay providing there was the ability to live. I know one young man who came to seminary with $30K school debt for undergrad and after 7 years of school loans for his MDiv and PhD his debt load has to be over $100K so I think that the cost of the education must needs be brought into the equation. _

How common is this problem? Why do we as Christians require students to go this deep into debt just to preach the gospel? If there is an area of reform it would seem to me that this would be a great place to start.


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## KMK

Larry, I am not trying to get you to change your mind. I am grateful for what you are trying to do. I was just pointing out some truths about human nature. And those who will be signing up for your seminary do have a human nature this side of glory. Sometimes it is hard to tell why people post on certain things. It appears that your OP was simply intended to be informative. By some of the conversation in this thread I thought maybe you were looking for input. I apologize.


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## JonathanHunt

Larry, it is very interesting and informative. I may strongly consider it at a later date, as I will have time for study, but little funding and no ability to travel anywhere.

Jonathan


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## larryjf

KMK said:


> Larry, I am not trying to get you to change your mind. I am grateful for what you are trying to do. I was just pointing out some truths about human nature. And those who will be signing up for your seminary do have a human nature this side of glory. Sometimes it is hard to tell why people post on certain things. It appears that your OP was simply intended to be informative. By some of the conversation in this thread I thought maybe you were looking for input. I apologize.



I'm always looking for input, don't get me wrong.
I just don't particularly agree with some of the input.
I'm not at all upset, i'm sorry if it came out that way.


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## larryjf

JonathanHunt said:


> Larry, it is very interesting and informative. I may strongly consider it at a later date, as I will have time for study, but little funding and no ability to travel anywhere.
> 
> Jonathan



We would love to have you on board.


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## Sonoftheday

> Larry, it is very interesting and informative. I may strongly consider it at a later date, as I will have time for study, but little funding and no ability to travel anywhere.


 Also as I currently am leaving my church, but not yet a member of another I would have no church officer to recommend me.


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## ReformationArt

larryjf said:


> I would not judge my pastor on how much he paid for his education. I would judge my pastor through examination of his knowledge, beliefs, and life among other things.



It would help if you read the post as a whole to try to get the balance I was seeking. It's not much to ask to be read charitably, is it?

If you re-read my post, I think you would see that I agree with the statement quoted above, which was my point as well. Quality of training is the issue. Whether it is free, or cost $100,000, a man should pursue the best training possible.

I never said that as a hard and fast rule, "you get what you pay for." You can blow a lot of money at a lot of liberal seminaries and get squat. Please don't put words in my mouth! I am saying, that there are things that are worth paying for. As a presbyter, having briefly looked over the curriculum, I could not in good conscience recommend a man pursuing the high calling of minister of the word and sacraments to pursue this institution, because the curriculum is not adequate.

For instance, ST 1 requires reading vol. 1 of Hodge, and writing 19 short papers (500 words is aprox. 1 page single space with 12 point font).

So, read a book and write 19 pages, and you've completed a 3 credit hour course. I did more work than that for credit in college, much less seminary! At the bottom, it says, "This class is an indepth study of systematic theology." Based on my studies at WSC and WTS, I humbly disagree.

I have tried to offer helpful criticism to you as a man who serves on the "research department" that oversees this seminary. I have suggested you make a personal investment of a few hundred dollars to purchase materials that will show you step by step how your ST curriculum pales in comparison to others being offered. I do this because I care about the church, and about the men who are being trained for the ministry of the word and sacraments. You would send men to the Presbytery having never read Vos, Ridderbos, Berkhof, Murray, Kline, and others. Men need to be prepared to ministry in this current theological context, and need to be at least exposed to the various controversy's that are taking place today. I see no place for that in the TNARS curriculum.

There is a reason that I purposefully chose the name "institute" for the organization I started. I didn't want anyone to be confused about what they were getting. What I offer, although the lectures are ver batim from the classroom, is not the same as what a seminary offers.


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## ReformationArt

DavidinKnoxville said:


> Elijah must have spent a fortune on getting ready for his gospel ministry. *laugh*



I'm glad you're getting a good *laugh* out of this discussion David. I, however, don't think it is a laughing matter. As a presbyter, I take the issue of preparing men for the gospel ministry extremely serious.



> Spiritual gifts are not dependent on man and his institutions..... If that was the case then the kingdom would have already come by now. That is my point.



Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that spiritual gifts are dependent on man and his institutions.



> There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free" but there is something inherently sinister about peddling the gospel for cash.



I sense an accusation here? Please do elaborate on exactly who you think is "peddling the gospel for cash?" Is it the PCA? Covenant Seminary? Please tell us who!


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## ChristopherPaul

larryjf said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is inline with my thoughts as I look at the site.
> 
> I am encouraged that such a resource is available; however, I do not agree that a person is qualified to be an ordained Teaching Elder after completing such a curriculum. There is much more required to be prepared for such a calling than reading certain books, listening to lectures and writing essays.
> 
> I think such a program is outstanding for the layman who aspires to be in a non-pastoral office such as Deacon or Ruling elder or even just to better equip him in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you could be more specific as to what else should be required from a school. It's hard to improve the program with general remarks...with more specifics we can work to improve the program.
Click to expand...


I am not a seminarian, but other than the time management and self-discipline that is required (which is necessary for any educational pursuit) I find the curriculum to be generally simple. If I were to become a full-time student, then such requirements for an MDiv would not be so taxing. I say this to reiterate the point others have made that this seems to be a scaled down program compared to the costly accredited institutions. 1,000 word essays and 5,000 word essays are not too much to ask at all. I remember Dr. McMahon mentioning that while he was in seminary he was required to write three sentences for every paragraph of Berkof's Systematic. That is quite the requirement but can only be effective. 

My suggestion is that if you really intend for this to be equivalent (as far as degree obtained) to the accredited institutions, require what they require. It is a lot of work, but in many cases the student can not help but know the material if they complete the assignment.

The other reasons I feel this can not replace traditional seminary education are the same reasons that have been belabored in past threads regarding distance education versus on campus education. Pastoral candidates require human interaction. Some of the greatest minds have the worst people skills. How will this seminary prepare students in rhetoric and social interaction?

Again, I am very encouraged by this and would recommend it for the layman and church officer. It is the issuing of equivalent seminary degrees that concerns me.


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## DavidinKnoxville

ReformationArt said:


> DavidinKnoxville said:
> 
> 
> 
> Elijah must have spent a fortune on getting ready for his gospel ministry. *laugh*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad you're getting a good *laugh* out of this discussion David. I, however, don't think it is a laughing matter. As a presbyter, I take the issue of preparing men for the gospel ministry extremely serious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiritual gifts are not dependent on man and his institutions..... If that was the case then the kingdom would have already come by now. That is my point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that spiritual gifts are dependent on man and his institutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing inherently noble about being "completely free" but there is something inherently sinister about peddling the gospel for cash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I sense an accusation here? Please do elaborate on exactly who you think is "peddling the gospel for cash?" Is it the PCA? Covenant Seminary? Please tell us who!
Click to expand...


Pastor,

If you re-read all my posts you will plainly see that I have gone out of my way to be respectful to you in this discussion. I am taken aback at the tone of your last post. If you think I have been disrespectful to you in anyway then I apologize for not communicating the respect you deserve as a Pastor and will try to do better in the future. 


I do want to (respectfully) point out in a post in another thread: 

PCA's Ministerial Glut

_For someone who has been seeking a call, with no geographical limits to the search. I found those statements about going for less money okay providing there was the ability to live. I know one young man who came to seminary with $30K school debt for undergrad and after 7 years of school loans for his MDiv and PhD his debt load has to be over $100K so I think that the cost of the education must needs be brought into the equation. _

So again, I ask. Is it right in light of the scriptures to require such a sum of money from someone just to prepare them for the gospel ministry? I would love to be able to train for the ministry but due to monetary constraints (just married, new baby and just adopted my step daughter) I am not able to get the education that is needed. So do I think it is wrong/a sin to charge exorbitant tuition fees? Yes I do. It keeps the poor among you from having any chance at the ministry without having to go into debt. It also keeps those that think going into debt is wrong/sinful to get the required education to go into the ministry. 

Do I have any one college or institution in mind? No. Do I think that the current system needs to be reevaluated? Absolutely. 

In Christ,
David


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## larryjf

ReformationArt said:


> It would help if you read the post as a whole to try to get the balance I was seeking. It's not much to ask to be read charitably, is it?
> 
> If you re-read my post, I think you would see that I agree with the statement quoted above, which was my point as well. Quality of training is the issue. Whether it is free, or cost $100,000, a man should pursue the best training possible.


I was simply telling you how i would judge my pastor...which is what you asked me to tell you.



ReformationArt said:


> For instance, ST 1 requires reading vol. 1 of Hodge, and writing 19 short papers (500 words is aprox. 1 page single space with 12 point font).
> 
> So, read a book and write 19 pages, and you've completed a 3 credit hour course. I did more work than that for credit in college, much less seminary! At the bottom, it says, "This class is an indepth study of systematic theology." Based on my studies at WSC and WTS, I humbly disagree.


o.k., now we're getting somewhere.
So would it be more acceptable if our curriculum had the student read 3 books per class and write 20,000 words instead of 10,000?

I don't agree that Hodge is not a indepth systematic theology, but i can agree that there could be an improvement...which is why i asked for specifics.

In my op i also asked for people to come on and volunteer their time to make the school better, but nobody has offered that. I see more criticism than actual willingness to help in many of the posts here (not all of the posts).




ReformationArt said:


> I have tried to offer helpful criticism to you as a man who serves on the "research department" that oversees this seminary. I have suggested you make a personal investment of a few hundred dollars to purchase materials that will show you step by step how your ST curriculum pales in comparison to others being offered. I do this because I care about the church, and about the men who are being trained for the ministry of the word and sacraments. You would send men to the Presbytery having never read Vos, Ridderbos, Berkhof, Murray, Kline, and others. Men need to be prepared to ministry in this current theological context, and need to be at least exposed to the various controversy's that are taking place today. I see no place for that in the TNARS curriculum.


Biblically speaking, an Elder is not required to read Vos, Ridderbos, etc.
Further, i think it much more profitable to be trained in what the truth is as opposed to what controversies are around....there are always new controversies and if one is well founded on the truth one can make a defense for the faith without having studied any new controversies that may come up.

I do think studying controversies is important, i just don't see it as a biblical requirement for the office.


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## KMK

larryjf said:


> In my op i also asked for people to come on and volunteer their time to make the school better, but nobody has offered that. I see more criticism than actual willingness to help in many of the posts here (not all of the posts).



Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by 'help out'. That was the spirit in which my comment was made. It was not made with a spirit of 'criticism'. Are you asking for people to enter into some kind official relationship with the seminary?


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## larryjf

I would like to point out that not all of the classes at TNARS are reading a book and doing a paper.

For instance...

NT Theology
Requires a book with a 5,000 word assignment
Plus 39 lectures with a 7,000 word assignment

Doctrines
Requires a book with a 1,000 word assignment
Plus 55 lectures with a 11,000 word assignment


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## larryjf

KMK said:


> Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by 'help out'. That was the spirit in which my comment was made. It was not made with a spirit of 'criticism'. Are you asking for people to enter into some kind official relationship with the seminary?



Exactly...i'm asking if anyone is interested in becoming a member of the Research Dept., or even just designing some classes for us that we can incorporate into the school without becoming an official member.

The trick is that the classes must remain completely free, not even purchasing of textbooks being required.

I am currently asking the Bible Centre if we can join them as that would give us free access to modern books (like Reymond's systematic theology).


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## ReformationArt

DavidinKnoxville said:


> If you re-read all my posts you will plainly see that I have gone out of my way to be respectful to you in this discussion. I am taken aback at the tone of your last post. If you think I have been disrespectful to you in anyway then I apologize for not communicating the respect you deserve as a Pastor and will try to do better in the future.



David, please accept my apology for misreading your tone, which is easy to do in this medium. 

[/QUOTE]So again, I ask. Is it right in light of the scriptures to require such a sum of money from someone just to prepare them for the gospel ministry? I would love to be able to train for the ministry but due to monetary constraints (just married, new baby and just adopted my step daughter) I am not able to get the education that is needed. So do I think it is wrong/a sin to charge exorbitant tuition fees? Yes I do. It keeps the poor among you from having any chance at the ministry without having to go into debt. It also keeps those that think going into debt is wrong/sinful to get the required education to go into the ministry. [/QUOTE]

The Reformed seminaries I'm familiar with, and who the vast majority of PCA and OPC pastors come out of, are not out to get rich. They do try hard to keep tuition costs down, and make education affordable. However, when you have 10-20 full time professors that are salaried, plus the cost of keeping up grounds, etc, the money has to come from somewhere. Even so, the cost of tuition does not normally reflect the cost of the education. It is already significantly off-set by donors. I don't recall the figures, but I remember hearing that several times at WSC. 

One important thing to note is that the seminary is not the church, except for schools like Covenant where there is direct denominational control and oversight. They are para-church organizations and have to be good stewards with the funds entrusted to them. So, I would not charge them with any wrong doing with regards to finances. 

It is then, up to the student to handle his own finances. Each does it a different way. I would never advise someone to take on a $100,000 debt to go to seminary!!! This of course is an extreme case, but it does happen. My student loans (college + seminary) are a little over $20,000. The reason they are not higher is because I had financial assistance from my family.

Although it's not exactly public knowledge, the OPC does make exceptions for men who do not go to seminary. Now, this is definitely the "exception" and not the rule. But, if the Presbytery is satisfied with the man's gifts and knowledge (gained through self study and mentorship), then they can request an exemption from the GA. The GA does approve such exemptions. However, the standards are not lowered for such a man, and in my own experience he is held to a little higher standard. I have heard that such is not the case in the PCA at this time.

It's an imperfect system, for sure. The church is relying on para-church organizations to train its ministers. However, it's the system we have, and it works ok for now.

What is definitely needed is more church support, in terms of $$$$ for men pursuing the ministry.


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## ReformationArt

larryjf said:


> I would like to point out that not all of the classes at TNARS are reading a book and doing a paper.
> 
> For instance...
> 
> NT Theology
> Requires a book with a 5,000 word assignment
> Plus 39 lectures with a 7,000 word assignment
> 
> Doctrines
> Requires a book with a 1,000 word assignment
> Plus 55 lectures with a 11,000 word assignment



Thanks Larry,

Yes, I noticed this, and I think especially the courses that you utilize from Covenant that include the lectures are far better than the others along the lines I mentioned before.

I do agree that Hodge is indepth, my critique was of the course as a whole. For instance, I think a pastor needs to be able to understand such issues as theonomy, the NPP, different modern views of the days of creation, etc. Yes, these and other topics are addressed by Hodge, but not in the same depth as more current volumes that are more up to speed on the discussion.

Hodge is fantastic, however, if he were alive today, he would do a good bit of updating to his own work given the context.

If you email men like Dr. Richard Gaffin (WTS Phili), Dr. David Van Drunen (WSCal), and others, they might be willing to send you a copy of their course syllabus so you can get a feel for what is involved (how much reading is required, how much written work, exams, etc). I do think exams are helpful, in addition to written assignments.

Also, because of only using one book, you cut out the research component. That was one of the great benefits of seminary for me was learning how to do research, to plow through a number of sources to find what I need, etc. 

This can still be done with free sources online, but you would need to identify those sources and provide links, etc. 

I do think there is a lot of potential, however, in my opinion the curriculum still needs a good bit of work.


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## DMcFadden

Larry,

I love your idea and want to encourage you. In this not-a-one-size-fits-all world, there should be room for the Westminsters and the alterantives. That is why I personally like open source software, free resources such as e-Sword, and courses such as those provided for free by RTS and Covenant (not to mention online resources such as White Horse Inn). 

In the area of software, for example, in addition to the works available on their site, one internet location lists more than 650 e-Sword compatible resources. Wordsearch provides their latest engine for free and more than 100 books without cost. Truth is Still Truth will show you how to get the Libronix engine free and dozens of classic reference books gratis as well for that format. Add the proliferation of PDF files of the classics and you have a full library. It is amazing how much good Reformation, Puritan, and Reformed books can be had at no cost on the Internet. Today a curious learner could easily have a "library" on their laptop stretching into the thousands of volumes with no outlay of money.

With RTS, Covenant, and the many MP3 lectures on the Net for free, there is ample material out of which to cobble together a significant theological education. All that is lacking is the accountability and structure to ensure that real learning goals will be met at a respectable level of accomplishment. But, please note, that is an important part of the package. You will need lots of volunteers willing to help make this concept work out in practice.

As a graduate of both traditional and non-traditional accredited schools, I can vouch for the value of a non-traditional program. And, as a way of providing education for someone who does not "need" the certificate, but merely wants the education, it could be a gift from God. May the Lord bless your dreams.


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## ReformationArt

DMcFadden said:


> May the Lord bless your dreams.



what if he has a nightmare!!!


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## DMcFadden

ReformationArt said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> May the Lord bless your dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what if he has a nightmare!!!
Click to expand...


May the Lord bless your dreams of serving him by serving his church and grant you wisdom in your efforts.

Better?


----------



## ReformationArt

DMcFadden said:


> ReformationArt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> May the Lord bless your dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what if he has a nightmare!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> May the Lord bless your dreams of serving him by serving his church and grant you wisdom in your efforts.
> 
> Better?
Click to expand...


That's pretty good, actually!


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## ReformationArt

That reminded me to check a satire site that is always good for a laugh, despair.com. Here's what they have to say:


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## DMcFadden

I've used despair.com a lot! It is great!

Here are some of my favorite motivational posters mocking the emergent church . . .

















I know, I know . . .


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## ReformationArt

Those are hilarious! 

I hadn't seen those before, but found the whole motherload here:

Motivational Posters for the Emerging Free-for All


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## Grymir

Hello Everybody!

Hello larryjf!

Thank you for posting about The North American REFORMED Seminary. I've been lurking for about a month. I had to see if y'all were really reformed or just using the words. But with the things people were saying, I had to take the plunge and sign up to join the great discussions on PB, so this is my first post. I've been checking out the NARS website and the academics in particular. If someone got a degree from NARS, they would know more than the skulls-full-of-mush that most seminaries in America are turning out. They would be better theologians than Barth for sure, but I don't mean to insult NARS. I'm wrestling with signing up, because your program is good (yea, I know, if I start a sentence out with I again, I will sound like the choruses I have to suffer through at church).

I hate to bust everybody's bubble, but Seminary's are man's requirements, and not God's. I'm just a tent maker (just a cook, ma'am), but have gotten to do some incredible things with and for the church. (Deacon, Teach, VBS!) Yea, I could $work$ for the church, but you don't need a fancy degree to do it. The Pastor only gets 20 minutes on Sunday, but I get a whole hour to teach real Reformed Theology to a church that needs it. 60 minutes of solid stuff to fill their minds! 

NARS older material is probably better than the new stuff, I mean, once you've studied the greats, why rework it? I was converted by reading the entire Bible (KJV). If a person does that, they will be way ahead of most in their knowledge of God. And that will lead someone into a great walk with God to grow and know Him better. Jer 9:24 "But let him that glorieth, glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me: for I am the Lord, which show mercy, judgment, and righteousness in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord."

Have fun with it and God Bless!


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## larryjf

Just wanted to update everyone that the programs at TNARS have been revised to be a bit more rigorous. Plus we now incorporate some modern textbooks through the Bible Centre...that allows the student to read them online for free.


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## PilgrimPastor

*School Cost IS Too High*



DavidinKnoxville said:


> Please check out this post:
> 
> http://www.puritanboard.com/348170-post43.html
> 
> _For someone who has been seeking a call, with no geographical limits to the search. I found those statements about going for less money okay providing there was the ability to live. I know one young man who came to seminary with $30K school debt for undergrad and after 7 years of school loans for his MDiv and PhD his debt load has to be over $100K so I think that the cost of the education must needs be brought into the equation. _
> 
> How common is this problem? Why do we as Christians require students to go this deep into debt just to preach the gospel? If there is an area of reform it would seem to me that this would be a great place to start.



I agree with your suggestion that this is an area that needs to be addressed CHURCH wide. I have been blessed with military education benefits but many are not. I completed much of my undergraduate degree in religion while on Active Duty - which was paid for 100% - and used GI Bill benefits for a graduate degree in Church Ministry. Were it not for those benefits I may not have been able to formally prepare for ministry in a way suitable to most churches.

One the one hand we expect our Ministers to have graduate degrees from accredited Seminaries which are expensive but on the other hand most churches can not afford to provide a salary commensurate with the cost of student loan repayment and family provision. 

Though I have degrees from an accredited and prominent Evangelical Seminary, I am not convinced that this is the only type of training that properly prepares ministers. There are many unaccredited but highly credible alternatives. 

That being said, it has been my experience that church membership is much more pleased to follow after a leader who is clearly called and equipped according to the fruits of ministry - not the nature of the degrees on his wall...


----------

