# Presbyterians clear way for gay clergy



## ryanhamre

Presbyterians clear way for gay clergy - FoxNews.com

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Presbyterians clear way for gay clergy

Published May 10, 2011 | Associated Press

After decades of debate, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) on Tuesday struck down a barrier to ordaining gays, ratifying a proposal that removes the celibacy requirement for unmarried clergy, in the latest mainline Protestant move toward accepting gay relationships.

The change was endorsed last year by the Presbyterian national assembly, but required approval by a majority of the denomination's 173 presbyteries, or regional church bodies.

The Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, based in Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minn., cast the deciding 87th vote Tuesday night. Sixty-two presbyteries have voted against the measure and balloting will continue, but the majority needed for ratification was secured in Minnesota.

"It's a thrilling day," said Sylvia Thorson-Smith, an elder at St. Mark's Presbyterian Church in Tucson, Ariz., whose family advocates for gays and lesbians in the church. She invited 40 people to her house for a party after the vote was announced. "I can't help but think of those who have worked and suffered and endured and hoped for this. Some have not lived to see it."

Differences over the Bible and homosexuality have split Protestant groups nationally and worldwide for years. Within the Presbyterian Church, about 100 of the 11,000 congregations had already broken away ahead of the vote, but a group of large theologically conservative congregations, which calls itself Fellowship, has decided to remain in the denomination for now.

Top Presbyterian executives issued a statement to the church acknowledging that "some will rejoice while others will weep," at the decision.

"However, as Presbyterians, we believe that the only way we will find God's will for the church is by seeking it together — worshipping, praying, thinking and serving alongside one another," the executives wrote.

The measure approved Tuesday eliminates language in the church constitution requiring that clergy live "in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness." The new provision instead requires ministers to "submit joyfully to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all aspects of life."

Each regional body will decide who it should ordain, and some districts are expected to continue to reject gay and lesbian candidates.

Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas will send a letter to its nearly 5,000 members reaffirming the congregation's commitment to traditional marriage and celibacy for unmarried clergy. The church has formed a task force to study the impact of the new policy.

"While this change is deeply troubling, it does not change (Highland Park church)," the Highland Park senior pastor and elders wrote in the letter. "We have the freedom and the responsibility to continue upholding biblical standards for church officers."

The 2.1 million-member denomination, based in Louisville, Ky., is the latest mainline Protestant group to move toward accepting same-gender relationships.

In 2003, The Episcopal Church caused an uproar in the global Anglican fellowship by consecrating the first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest Lutheran group in the country, liberalized its policy toward gay clergy two years ago. The United Church of Christ started ordaining openly gay clergy in 1972, and more recently endorsed same-sex marriage.

The nation's largest mainline group, the United Methodist Church, which has just under 8 million U.S. members, retains its celibacy mandate for unmarried clergy.

In the Presbyterian Church, regional bodies had rejected similar amendments in three previous votes on ordaining gays since 1998. In this latest round of balloting, 19 presbyteries switched their vote in favor of ordaining openly gay and lesbian candidates for ministry.

Among the reasons cited by activists on all sides of the issue: the change in broader American society toward accepting same-sex relationships, weariness of the debate, and the departure of some conservative churches from presbyteries, which changed the balance of votes in some regions.

The new policy will take effect on July 10, after all presbyteries complete their voting.

The much smaller Presbyterian Church in America, a separate denomination, bars ordination for women and openly gay clergy candidates.

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Associated Press writer Tara Bannow in Minneapolis contributed to this report.

Read more: Presbyterians clear way for gay clergy - FoxNews.com


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## Zenas

The "much smaller" PCA. Smaller relative to what? The PCUSA boast 2 million members, but I doubt that translates to 2 million people in the pews on any sort of a regular basis. This also doesn't consider the fact that the PCUSA is in a steady decline in membership and has been for some time. Within the century, the denomination will cease to exist. It will either be forced to merge with another shrinking liberal denomination or it will simply be a collection of buildings supported by trusts that remain empty on a weekly basis.


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## Wayne

It has been said with some good authority that the PCA has as many people in its pews on "any given Sunday" as does the PC(USA).


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## Brother John

> The measure approved Tuesday eliminates language in the church constitution requiring that clergy live "in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness." The new provision instead requires ministers to "submit joyfully to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all aspects of life."



I imagine this must also endorse single pastor pursuing sexual relationships. 



> The much smaller Presbyterian Church in America, a separate denomination, bars ordination for women and openly gay clergy candidates.





> It has been said with some good authority that the PCA has as many people in its pews on "any given Sunday" as does the PC(USA).
> 
> Wayne Sparkman, Th.M., CA
> Director, PCA Historical Center, St. Louis, MO
> Blogs: The Continuing Story and PCA History Blog



Wayne I have never thought of that but I would not be surprised if this is true.

Does anyone think this will cause the remaining "reformed" or "conservative" churches in the PCUSA to leave?


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## Zenas

As has been mentioned, the PCUSA makes it difficult. As I am aware, a congregation that leaves for the PCA may expect to lose their building. The PCUSA will have it sit empty rather than lose it to the PCA. They are less hostile toward congregations joining the EPC or the ARP. I know that one congregation recently left in Mississippi and joined the ARP. They were able to keep their building.


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## Brother John

Zenas said:


> As has been mentioned, the PCUSA makes it difficult. As I am aware, a congregation that leaves for the PCA may expect to lose their building. The PCUSA will have it sit empty rather than lose it to the PCA. They are less hostile toward congregations joining the EPC or the ARP. I know that one congregation recently left in Mississippi and joined the ARP. They were able to keep their building.


 
Why does the PCUSA have it out specifically for the PCA?


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## Zenas

My guess is it has something to do with what happened in the 1970's. Maybe I'm wrong though.


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## DMcFadden

One of my old theology profs in seminary, Jack Rogers, a former moderator of the PCUSA, penned a book from an "evangelical" perspective, titled _Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church_. 



> Jack Rogers argues unequivocally for the ordination of gays and lesbians and for the extension of full and equal rights in society to all people who are homosexual. Christianity, he observes, has moved through history in the direction of ever-greater openness and inclusiveness. Today's church is led by many of those who were once cast out: people of color, women, and divorced and remarried people. It is inevitable, he believes, that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people will one day walk in the same steps as other Christian leaders.
> Rogers, an evangelical, begins by discussing his own personal change of heart and mind on the issue, a change that has moved him into the middle of this controversy in his own church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). He examines how the church misused the Bible to justify slavery and the denial of rights to women, and he links these efforts to efforts today to use biblical texts to deny equal rights to gays and lesbians. He shows how neither the Bible nor the confessions are opposed to homosexuality and debunks frequently used fundamentalist stereotypes and myths about gays and lesbians. Rogers concludes with his thoughts on how the church can heal itself and move forward.



Can you just imagine the swelling "pride" I feel welling up in my heart knowing the contribution my old prof has made to the "evangelical" defense of gay rights in the PCUSA?


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## Andres

Zenas said:


> As has been mentioned, the PCUSA makes it difficult. As I am aware, a congregation that leaves for the PCA may expect to lose their building.



So be it! Is not allegiance to Scripture and God's commandments more important than a building?!! I can't believe a church considering leaving the PCUSA would even struggle with the issue.


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## Bill The Baptist

Andres said:


> So be it! Is not allegiance to Scripture and God's commandments more important than a building?!! I can't believe a church considering leaving the PCUSA would even struggle with the issue



I agree 100%. The church is the people, not the building. Perhaps they could find a small PCA or other Presbyterian church and join their congregation wholesale. Then they would still have a building.


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## J. Dean

Bill The Baptist said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> 
> So be it! Is not allegiance to Scripture and God's commandments more important than a building?!! I can't believe a church considering leaving the PCUSA would even struggle with the issue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree 100%. The church is the people, not the building. Perhaps they could find a small PCA or other Presbyterian church and join their congregation wholesale. Then they would still have a building.
Click to expand...

I'll be the first to donate money to anybody leaving the organization in order to help them get a building.


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## JennyG

DMcFadden said:


> He shows how neither the Bible nor the confessions are opposed to homosexuality



 can he also levitate?


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## Bill The Baptist

JennyG said:


> can he also levitate?



Well, he is full of hot air.


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## Frank

Along the same lines, I am happy to report that the church I am Pasturing has just voted unanimously to sever our affiliation with the American Baptist Churches. This was primarily in response to the issues talked about above. Glad that we own our own building 
1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.


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## MMasztal

At least the Navy is having second thoughts.


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## Apologist4Him

I had to leave the PCUSA Church I was attending over the new policy (even though that Church was one of the minority conservative presbyteries), I knew this issue was coming up for vote, and I was waiting to see how it would go. I wasn't an official member, so my leaving won't count on the records of members withdrawing membership, but I expect a sizable fallout will occur. It is sad news, not only for PCUSA, not only for Presbyterians, but for Christianity as a whole. It will only add to the confusion. The average ordinary person on the street, having watched the broadcast, may come away thinking all Presbyterians accept gay relationships, which couldn't be further from the truth. I sincerely hope other denominations will learn from PCUSA's grave errors. Me and my wife are now without a Church, I know of no other Presbyterian Church in our area, (I think) there is like one Reformed Baptist Church (my wife isn't fond of), so I don't know what we are gonna do. Personally I will not regularly attend any more Church services where the minister preaches the Arminian gospel, rejecting the doctrines of grace. I've tasted enough spiritual junkfood to last a lifetime.


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## Rich Koster

A friend of mine is a PCUSA pastor. He is a retired military chaplain, with a heart for God, in his mid 70's. He reminds me of an old cigarette commercial: "I'd rather fight than switch". I used to think this way, but now I have the attitude of "if the rats take over the ship, jump overboard, and let the ship sink with the rats on it". I'm tired of fighting liberals and self-righteous fans of man-law.


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## Marrow Man

Apologist4Him said:


> I know of no other Presbyterian Church in our area




I think I've mentioned this to you before, but there is an ARP about an hour from you in Springfield.

Gospel of Grace Church - Reformed Church - Springfield, MO


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## Apologist4Him

Marrow Man said:


> Apologist4Him said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know of no other Presbyterian Church in our area
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've mentioned this to you before, but there is an ARP about an hour from you in Springfield.
> 
> Gospel of Grace Church - Reformed Church - Springfield, MO
Click to expand...


I appreciate the help, but I live in Hollister, near Arkansas boarder, so the drive would probably be more than an hour (it was a 30 give or take a few min drive to the Church in Branson). For my wife and me, it's too far, we cannot afford the extra of what it would cost in gasoline every Sunday (we're having to borrow gas money from my parents as it is), and our ability to be involved on most any level would be crippled to say the least. Unfortunately it's not really an option. Thanks anyway though.


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## Marrow Man

Apologist4Him said:


> I appreciate the help, but I live in Hollister, near Arkansas boarder, so the drive would probably be more than an hour (it was a 30 give or take a few min drive to the Church in Branson). For my wife and me, it's too far, we cannot afford the extra of what it would cost in gasoline every Sunday (we're having to borrow gas money from my parents as it is), and our ability to be involved on most any level would be crippled to say the least. Unfortunately it's not really an option. Thanks anyway though.



Sure thing, friend. I'll pray that the Lord will open something up in your area. In the meantime, though, it is best to be with the Lord's people, even if the situation is not ideal. I understand the not driving 1+ hour thing with these gas prices.


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## Wayne

Andrew

Try contacting a conservative Presbytery for your area from one of the NAPARC denominations. 

My guess is that there are at least 20-50 people in the Branson area right now who would love to have a solid Reformed church.

You might be the catalyst to get something started finally.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Rich Koster said:


> A friend of mine is a PCUSA pastor. He is a retired military chaplain, with a heart for God, in his mid 70's. He reminds me of an old cigarette commercial: "I'd rather fight than switch". I used to think this way, but now I have the attitude of "if the rats take over the ship, jump overboard, and let the ship sink with the rats on it". I'm tired of fighting liberals and self-righteous fans of man-law.


 
Don't forget to set it on fire before you jump. That way the plague won't spread. The fire will cleanse the dead bodies of rats from floating to shore and infecting another population.


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## Apologist4Him

Wayne said:


> Andrew
> 
> Try contacting a conservative Presbytery for your area from one of the NAPARC denominations.
> 
> My guess is that there are at least 20-50 people in the Branson area right now who would love to have a solid Reformed church.
> 
> You might be the catalyst to get something started finally.


 
Wayne, thank you for the encouragement and great idea. I will try contacting NAPARC denominations and see what happens. If you were doing this, how might you approach them, or what would be the best approach? I have not tried this sort of thing before and am unsure as how to go about it. Since this is related, I will confess that I've had a call to preach/teach for years, but honestly I am afraid, just the thought of speaking in public frightens me, I am not a charismatic speaker, I have no formal seminary training under my belt, I am not ordained, I am married and financially poor, I have no influence or means to start a ministry. If I could somehow persuade one of the NAPARC denominations to plant a Church in my area, I think it would be a huge step in pushing me in the direction God has called me, but much more than that, I could see God calling for a Reformation of biblical truth in this area all for His glory, for the growth and edification of His Church.


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## Romans922

You could always come to our church up here in KC. But I understand if that is too far...

There is a PCA Church in Joplin, MO (still there)... 

Dont know much about it, you can look it up online.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Apologist4Him said:


> Wayne, thank you for the encouragement and great idea. I will try contacting NAPARC denominations and see what happens. If you were doing this, how might you approach them, or what would be the best approach? I have not tried this sort of thing before and am unsure as how to go about it.


 
Contact Dr. Alan Avera...He will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.

http://www.outreachnorthamerica.org/contact-us/ona-staff/


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## Wayne

Andrew:

Contact the denomination and ask for contact information for the presbytery over your area
Then contact the presbytery and ask to get in touch with whomever is in charge of home missions/church planting.

Then shame them into submission! "Why haven't you guys planted a church here yet? Whassamaddayou!!?? This is a happenin' place!!"

Ask if they have a contact list for the Branson area. Ask what you need to do to help them get something going.

And in all this, invest heavily in prayer that the Lord would prepare the way. Never stop praying, *especially* when things do finally get off the ground.


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## Apologist4Him

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Apologist4Him said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne, thank you for the encouragement and great idea. I will try contacting NAPARC denominations and see what happens. If you were doing this, how might you approach them, or what would be the best approach? I have not tried this sort of thing before and am unsure as how to go about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contact Dr. Alan Avera...He will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
> 
> Staff : Outreach North America
Click to expand...

 
Rev Benjamin, if you don't mind, could you please give me information about Dr. Alan through private message, or here, whichever you are most comfortable with? Do you know him personally? If so how did you come to know him? Just curious...not knowing people or being able to do face to face presents a challenge. I guess my concern is being rejected simply because they don't know me from Adam and have no way of knowing me on a personal level that they could confirm I am a true blue Reformed Christian. I can only hope people will pray and listen to God the Holy Spirit. *sigh*

I need to pray and get ready for action and get my thoughts organized, write them down, pray some more, and hope God will open a door.


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## Edward

For the PCA, you'd be in Missouri Presbytery, but they don't seem to have a web presence.


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## Scottish Lass

Andrew, sent you a pm re Alan Avera.


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## Marrow Man

Andrew, I know Alan Avera pretty well and would be glad to speak with you via PM about him. But if you're interested in something like this, you would be in my presbytery (Mississippi Valley) in the ARP, and I happen to be on the ONA Committee (Outreach North America -- i.e., church extension) of our presbytery. I can give you the contact information for the chair of our committee and help you make contact that way if you like.


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