# The two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified



## dnlcnwy (Sep 20, 2019)

Hi. It has been a long time since I visited this board and I must say things have improved dramatically. Find attached a paper I wrote some time ago that identified the first and second beasts of Revelation 13 as the early pagan and latter Constantinian Roman Empires respectively. I apologize for the roughness of the manuscript.


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## KMK (Sep 21, 2019)

dnlcnwy said:


> Hi. It has been a long time since I visited this board and I must say things have improved dramatically.



Is that criticism or complement? You must be talking about the period of time before I joined in 2007.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pergamum (Sep 21, 2019)

Some of you wimps couldn't take the PB back then.  

To quote every dysfunctional woman out there, and apply it to the PB, "_if you can't handle me at my worst, then you don't deserve me at my best!_!"
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Simply put, I've always thought the two beasts were (1) False Religion, and (2) A Persecutory Government that punishes the true faith. The Beast from the Land promotes the Beast from the Sea. A Governmental system and False Religion that mutually supports one another.

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## Pilgrim (Sep 21, 2019)

KMK said:


> Is that criticism or complement? You must be talking about the period of time before I joined in 2007.



I don't know for sure what the OP is referring to. But pre-2007 (roughly) was definitely a different era. But whether things are "better" or not are in the eye of the beholder. (There are no FV proponents here anymore, so that's a definite plus.) It is a calmer era to be sure. Some may like some of the positions that have gained popularity here, some will not.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 22, 2019)

So Daniel, are you saying that all of Revelation—including its visions— are to be relegated to distant past history? (I did read your papers.). Do you have any opinions concerning contemporary Amillennialism?


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## dnlcnwy (Sep 22, 2019)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> So Daniel, are you saying that all of Revelation—including its visions— are to be relegated to distant past history? (I did read your papers.). Do you have any opinions concerning contemporary Amillennialism?



I would say the majority of Revelation should mapped onto the period of time between the rise of Pagan Imperial Rome and the fall of the western empire in the 5th century. I am Amillenialist in that I believe the church is currently reigning and will enjoy continued growth throughout the world until the time of Christ's return, but I am also a bit of a historicist in that, as I said, I believe a lot of Revelation maps onto the church's formative years, when she was being first persecuted by and subsequently co-opted by the Roman Empire.
There are lessons that we learn from that period that carry into modern times. The optimistic part is that God will only allow his church to suffer for a limited time, which is a re-assurance to our family suffering in Non-christian cultures. But there is also a warning, particularly to the western church in traditional christiandom. We must not allow ourselves to be co-opted by the State or any organ of the State. Consider the church in contemporary America. The white evangelicals have cut a deal with the Republican party that verges on co-option. The black urban church is every bit in the pocket of the Democratic party. Now we have two manifestations of what is supposed to be the body of Christ that will hardly speak to each other because they have turned to the State as the solution to their problems instead of the rest of the body. The children of the church have a hard time believing in any of it because they don't see any difference between being a member of a church or any other civic organization that behaves like the rest of the world. Those outside the church just laugh up their sleaves at us because they don't see any of Christ's command to love thy neighbor as thyself in any of us.


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## KMK (Sep 22, 2019)

Could it be that one of the two beasts is the new KFC Chicken and Donut sandwich?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 23, 2019)

Hello Daniel,

I see that you mostly draw on historians (save for Mounce, who's premil, I believe). Your basis for calling yourself amil is very scanty, though you are correct in saying that the church (though you perhaps should first say "Christ") is currently reigning, and should add "from heaven".

Most amillennials hold that the church will be sifted as the end draws near, while persecution thins it out, and a great apostasy occurs (Matt 24:12; 2 Thess 2:3), and *not* "enjoy continued growth throughout the world until the time of Christ's return". Though some misnamed "optimistic amils" will hold to that, though they wax more like mild postmils.

You are surely correct that in saying that we—the church—"must not allow ourselves to be co-opted by the State or any organ of the State"!

The amils see the church suffering excruciatingly during the last horrific global persecution (drawing near, I believe), which is called Armageddon, although it will be relatively brief.

Yes, there are social justice warriors who disregard the primary—the very foremost—distinctives of the Gospel, and instead seek to draw the church into ethnic polarization and heightening divisions among God's people. Which is certainly not to say the Blacks especially—and some other ethnic minorities—have suffered immensely in this land, and we should be sensitive to this, and seek to be of help as we are able.

Contrary to what you say, I do not believe the Black church "is every bit in the pocket of the Democratic party", but have been awakened to the political and moral madness among the Democrats. The Gospel is the great leveler of all humankind, and sin is our common scourge.

I don't know what your experience of the church is like, but the churches I have been in of late are far more spiritually-oriented than what you are expressing (I am currently in a small local Baptist church (beginning to hold to the 1689 Confession), although I had been in the PCA for many years, but left because I could not countenance the direction it was going in in my area.

As for your saying, "Those outside the church just laugh up their sleeves at us because they don't see any of Christ's command to love thy neighbor as thyself in any of us", again, it is not wise to generalize on things you may be seeing in your locale to all the churches. Perhaps the decline of the Reformed churches generally is more pervasive than I know, but many local congregations across the land are sounder—in better shape spiritually—than you aver. Those outside will laugh or hate whatever we do, such is the offense of the Gospel.

I would suggest—for an intro to the _contemporary_ Amillennial school—to read Dennis Johnson's _Triumph of the Lamb_, and Wm. Hendriksen's _More Than Conquerors_. For a scholarly and really in-depth exposition, there is Greg Beale's, _The Book of Revelation (New International Greek Testament Commentary)_, which is both pricey and long (at 1309 pages), but the best for, say, a pastor preparing to preach through Revelation.

You could also look at some of my posts on Eschatology in my signature below (or here—Eschatology).

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## dnlcnwy (Sep 23, 2019)

I admit that my previous post painted a picture in absolutes. You are absolutely right, after review, the picture is more nuanced than that. My beef with State co-option might have to do with the fact that I live in the DC area, where pre-occupation with State sponsored solutions to social problems is intense. If I lived out in the heartland I might not be as concerned with this problem as I am.

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