# Does anyone post on infidels.org?



## RamistThomist (Feb 21, 2007)

And if you do, what are your handles?


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## BJClark (Feb 22, 2007)

Draught Horse;

No, but then it seems to be a moot point to do so.

I had e-mailed back and forth with a gentlemen from one of those sites and his attitude was one of feeling 'accused' and in turn would get defensive everytime I responded to something he asked or he would say "that answer is not good enough". 

I finally said, "no answer I or anyone else gives will ever be good enough for you, so any further communication on this topic would be moot, as you won't change my mind, and it's apparent unless you see 'signs and wonders' your mind won't be changed either."

He e-mailed me again trying to bait me into another pointless conversation, 
I deleted it. 

I guess the way I look at it is: If the man has nobody to argue with, then he has nobody to argue with but God, He can continue to argue with God all he wants, but I don't have to be a part of it. God is more than capable of working on the man's heart, without my coming to His defense. I shared what God laid on my heart to share, now it's between them.

And the more Christians continue to debate and argue with them only makes them happy and fuels their agenda--I think there needs to come a time when Christians just stop and let God deal with their hearts one on one; could you imagine if all they had to talk to is other people of like mind and nobody to argue or debate back with? What fun would that bring them? 

They would in essence be preaching to their own choir, and would become bored with it.


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## Machaira (Feb 22, 2007)

Hi Jacob,

I share Bobbi's experience when it comes to dealing with skeptics, agnostics, atheists, etc. These people aren't interested in discovering truth. Their goal is to use debate tactics to make you look foolish. It makes them feel good to do this because, in their minds, it justifies their position. Try talking to them if you must, but I promise you that it won't be a fair exchange. 

_A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still . . ._


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## etexas (Feb 22, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> And if you do, what are your handles?


What is Infidels.org?


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## Machaira (Feb 22, 2007)

Paul manata said:


> I also find it interesting that Calvinists would talk this way.



Arrogant? Hardly. It comes from 10 years worth of non-stop debate where it is crystal clear that winning the argument is the ultimate prize - not truth. I never said don't engage in apologetics ever. The point I'm making is not to get too caught up in it or expect too much. I know all too well that message boards can swollow you up if you let them.


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## BJClark (Feb 22, 2007)

Paul manata;

With all due respect, I believe God will save all those He will save, I also believe their comes a time when some have heard the Gospel over and over and there is a time to stop sharing and allow God to work one on one with that person...and when/if they have more questions they can certainly come back and ask additional questions.

however, much like you have posted to others..."that has been answered previously and I'm not going to waste my time answering it again"... is the same thing, they don't like the orginial answer, so they ask the same thing over and over expecting a different answer...there is no other answer...

So knowing this...I can stand there answering the same questions over and over, or continually stand there telling them over and over "that has already been answered, and I'm not going to waste my time answering it again" or I could say...To continue this conversation asking the same questions and repeating the same answers is moot, they already know the answer, they don't like the answer...that is between them and God, I can certainly step out of the way..and say "Okay God, I've shared what you wanted me to share, and I trust that You are fully capable of doing the rest."

I have certainly had to swollow my pride of thinking "God some how needs me to convince this person of their need for Him"


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## CDM (Feb 22, 2007)

Paul manata said:


> Well, good thing no one gave up on me after year 10.
> 
> And, yes, "arrogant." For us, sinners saved by grace, to now turn around and say "these people aren't interested in discovering truth," seems like we've forgotten our roots. Furthermore, it gives the air that you believed because "you were interested in hearning the truth." But, truth be told, before the spirit changed our hearts we were just as lost as those people. We hated God every bit as much as they do. We hated the truth. Thank God no one gave the person(s) who God used to bring you into the kingdom the advice that "that guy you're talking to isn't interested in the truth, it's a waste of time."


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## etexas (Feb 22, 2007)

I follow Jesus said:


> What is Infidels.org?


Nevermind! Thanks guys! I Google it up myself. Yuck.....how did you people find this site!!!!!!! Look, witness if you wish but.......NO PEARLS TO SWINE. I think they turn and do something......hmmmmmm.


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## Machaira (Feb 22, 2007)

Paul manata said:


> Well, good thing no one gave up on me after year 10.
> 
> And, yes, "arrogant." For us, sinners saved by grace, to now turn around and say "these people aren't interested in discovering truth," seems like we've forgotten our roots. Furthermore, it gives the air that you believed because "you were interested in hearning the truth." But, truth be told, before the spirit changed our hearts we were just as lost as those people. We hated God every bit as much as they do. We hated the truth. Thank God no one gave the person(s) who God used to bring you into the kingdom the advice that "that guy you're talking to isn't interested in the truth, it's a waste of time."
> 
> However, having said that, I'll agree whole-heartedly with you that those boards can swallow you up if you let them.



Well Paul, your selective reading of my last two posts has you misrepresenting my point not once, but twice. Congratulations, you have proven my point very nicely. Thanks. I know . . . maybe we can go round and round with this for the next 10 years and one of us will be convinced. Ya think?


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 22, 2007)

Butting in.....

I've been on the net doing apologetics actively (starting with AOL chat rooms in 93-94 and putting up my site in January of 96 on the net) for quite a bit now.

I've ran into two types of people over that time........

Those looking for an excuse not to believe and those looking for truth, but stuck on some particular point.

I'd never say don't visit those boards. Indeed, Mr. Manata has made an excellent point on the fact that some of the elect may be there. BJ has also made an excellent point (which Paul agreed with)

There comes a time when, after tons of arguments, you need to take a BREAK from those type of discussion forums. They will swallow you up if you continue to participate in them unabated and you actually feel your blood pressure raise in some of these arguments. There is a time to STEP AWAY.

I'm currently on hiatus from a board I was a moderator on, simply because I've learned that I *do* get sick of re-answering stupid questions on Calvinism that I answered a year ago (I'd actually gotten to the point of cutting and pasting myself after a while....). I've learned that even on some so-called 'Christian' boards, there are many babies roaming the place who've been in church for a while, but had no idea there were any other kinds of Christians than themselves (as far as non-Calvinists running into Calvinists for example). Even today, prior to reading this thread, I'm thinking of THREE PEOPLE in particular from that board who make it their mission in life to either attack me personally, question everything orthodox by using deceptive language or defend every possible heresy and heretic using slick language just to make themselves look loving......It takes patience - GREAT PATIENCE - (1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1) for an ELDER to deal with these types of people, much less a regular layman like myself.

These people don't exist without purpose. They are 'agents of sanctification and growth' for us - they force us to move closer to the Savior and depend more and more on Him for the necessary patience to deal with their devices and schemes while still being zealous for truth. 

Calvin's commentary on Alexander the Coppersmith (someone posted it in another thread and I know it's online @ ccel, but Panera's about to kick me out) is very appropriate here. 

There --------> but for the grace of God -----> go I. 

I'm glad someone didn't 'give up' on Paul.  Now he's around to make most atheists lives miserable.  

One of my beloved sisters on the other forum has used a constant refrain: "Run in your lane" - everyone's not meant to keep posting on an internet forum. For some people, it's a season. For some people, God has appointed them to be THE theologically learned and solid person on the message board they post on (and I'm one of those people on two secular boards I frequent). To those people I say - get equipped, keep posting and giving atheists fits.

If you're burned out from posting and starting to take arguments and discussions more personal..... know that the attacks that come upon you are NOTHING in comparison to the ones that were thrown at our Savior. You are NOT above Him. Don't you DARE be so (to quote Paul) ARROGANT to think that you can abandon post in the middle of the war and (as the elder board told William Carey) "If God wants to save those people, He will". That's sheer RUBBISH. God has chosen to have men be saved by the hearing (including the reading) of the preached word. We are His agents for His glory.

If you're feeling swallowed up in a forum, perhaps you DO need a break. Perhaps you need to head to the infirmary and rest, get bandaged up and such. Use this as an opportunity to see where your own sin in the issue lies (because there is the tendency in apologetics to be prideful and focus on winning the argument because it justifies US rather than brings glory to God, for example). Did you use words in many of your responses pejoratively on purpose ? Was the intention of your heart to speak truth, or stab someone in the heart because they attacked what you believed (oh...yeah....and to show that the gospel is true.....as a secondary motive, just to make it sound holy....) ?

So rest. Regroup. Grow in your sanctification. Learn to be as God was on earth - loving to those who hate Him and kind to them (He washed JUDAS' feet too, you know...) and pray for their repentance - both openly and in secret. Pray that God soften your heart to see them with pity and not bitterness (which develops from much rancor).

Remember Who we work for. Remember where we were brought from. Grow to be great lovers of sinners like Spurgeon was.

k. j. g.


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## gwine (Feb 23, 2007)

Paul manata said:


> Oh, and furthermore, apologetics isn't *only* to convince the non-believer. It can strengthen the believer when you direct them to a thread on some atheist forum, and show how God made foolish the wisdom of the world. So, that someone might not be convinced is also not a reason to discourage people from going there.



Very profound words.


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## Devin (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm always amazed at how simple questions lead to full blown (and sometimes heated) discussions.


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## BJClark (Feb 23, 2007)

Paul manata;



> Well, good thing no one gave up on me after year 10.



What did it take for you? If it took you 10 years of arguing with others to convince you of your need for Christ? 




> And, yes, "arrogant." For us, sinners saved by grace, to now turn around and say "these people aren't interested in discovering truth," seems like we've forgotten our roots. Furthermore, it gives the air that you believed because "you were interested in hearning the truth." But, truth be told, before the spirit changed our hearts we were just as lost as those people. We hated God every bit as much as they do. We hated the truth. Thank God no one gave the person(s) who God used to bring you into the kingdom the advice that "that guy you're talking to isn't interested in the truth, it's a waste of time."



Even though my parents didn't go or take us to church when I was growing up (except when my grandparents visited or friends took me), I have never questioned God's existance. I still remember in Seventh grade Anthropology (before I knew Christ) telling the teacher "She may have come from apes, but God created me" She got mad and began throwing all these arguements at me, I didn't know any arguements on which to stand on that truth, but I KNEW it was true, with every fiber of my being. 

I didn't know my need for Christ at the time or even understand what it meant to be a Sinner before this Just and Holy God I believed in, but I had no doubt He was real and that He created me. I even remember every time I walked past a church at the end of the street from my house hearing someone calling out to me, I'd turn and not see anyone...but I would be drawn to the Church and would go in and sit down in a pew and read the hymnals and try to sing these songs I didn't know.

When I was in high School, I was visiting a neighbor I babysat for, and she and her husband were praying together, I just sat there and listened, sure we celebrated Christmas, and I heard all the stories of Christ being born, and watched the movies on TV, at Easter and Christmas of Christ's Birth and Resurrection, but I didn't understand it all, I never questioned it, I believed it was true, I just didn't understand what it meant and how it applied to me, until this neighbor sat down and told me of my sinfulness before God and WHY Christ came and died, and everything began to make sense, the movies, the being drawn to the church, everything I heard up to that point made sense.

So for me, it's difficult to understand someone who questions the Very existance of God, even when they may not understand why sin is in the world, and why He allows some to get abused or get cancer or whatever, to me, He's God, and as God He can allow whatever He wants, and I accept it, even when I don't necessarily like it, or even understand.

Even when sharing with someone my own past abuse, they don't like to hear the truth that I understand God's love to be more than His just allowing 'good' things to happen to me, or even not giving me everything I ask for. 

When sharing how as a parent I don't always give my kids everything they ask for, not because the things they ask for are bad or even bad for them. I just don't give them everything they ask for; and they don't understand or refuse to understand, How God is the same way, they can't or don't want to see God that way (because He is a loving God, and apparently a loving God should give you everything you want and ask for), they don't understand Love is more than just giving people exactly what they want, when they want it. They expect Him to be the God they want Him to be, and not the God that He is, and anything less than that, in their opinion is NOT God. 

I can not speak for all of them who post on those forums, but for the ones I have spoken to, they want God to be the way they want Him to be...and He isn't....so they don't want any part of Him.


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