# Baptismal Regeneration and the CoC



## Osage Bluestem (Apr 6, 2010)

Do you believe they are a cult or are they a legitimate christian denomination? They seem very cult like to me. 

Here is an interesting link that asks this question: Is the Church of Christ a Cult?


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## jason d (Apr 6, 2010)

DD2009 said:


> Do you believe they are a cult or are they a legitimate christian denomination?



I think it is helpful to first ask which Church of Christ one is talking about as I don't think you can paint them all with a broad brush.

Why do I say that?

Well, the church I am a part of does not have a building and we meet in a Church of Christ building after their service. In talking to their elders (and other staff) and seeing their statement of faith we learned that they are one of many Church of Christ that does NOT hold to "Baptismal Regeneration". As far as the instrument thing goes, they sing a capella, but merely out of tradition, they told us they do not do it for legalistic reasons (there wording not mine).

So, like most things I think you have to ask on a one to one basis to figure out if a particular Church of Christ is cult-like or not.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 6, 2010)

Some Presbyterians offer arguments for not using instruments in public worship. This should not be an issue in dealing with the CoC. I just ask them the last time they sung a Psalm.

I once taught a Sociology course at an Independent Christian Church college, for one semester. I noted their statement of faith included a statement regarding baptism, which I could not have affirmed if I desired to teach there full time. I don't have a copy of that statement and recently was trying to find it online. If they still use such, they don't make it public. I'm curious as to what they actually say about baptism.


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## JML (Apr 6, 2010)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Some Presbyterians offer arguments for not using instruments in public worship.



And some Baptists.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 6, 2010)

The teach that you must be baptized to be saved. Many of them also refuse to include the Holy Spirit as part of the Godhead.


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## Jack K (Apr 6, 2010)

The Churches of Christ (notice the plural) are congregational and therefore it's hard to say what they believe as a group. But, yes, baptismal regeneration is pretty standard and they're strongly Arminian and works-oriented.

I've known them to target believers from other churches by telling them they aren't saved and must be baptized in a C of C (they went after me when I was a college freshman). In that way, their effect on the church is similar to that of a cult. But I don't think I'd call them one. Those C of C I've known are in line with, say, the Apostle's Creed. So I'd only go so far as to say they hold serious and damaging errors.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 6, 2010)

Jack K said:


> The Churches of Christ (notice the plural) are congregational and therefore it's hard to say what they believe as a group. But, yes, baptismal regeneration is pretty standard and they're strongly Arminian and works-oriented.
> 
> I've known them to target believers from other churches by telling them they aren't saved and must be baptized in a C of C (they went after me when I was a college freshman). In that way, their effect on the church is similar to that of a cult. But I don't think I'd call them one. Those C of C I've known are in line with, say, the Apostle's Creed. So I'd only go so far as to say they hold serious and damaging errors.


 
They have told me that no one can go to heaven unless they are a member of the churches of Christ. Their denomination.


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## nnatew24 (Apr 6, 2010)

DD2009 said:


> They have told me that no one can go to heaven unless they are a member of the churches of Christ. Their denomination.



Then that's a cult  But of course, not all CoC teach such.


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## Osage Bluestem (Apr 6, 2010)

nnatew24 said:


> DD2009 said:
> 
> 
> > They have told me that no one can go to heaven unless they are a member of the churches of Christ. Their denomination.
> ...



I thought so. I imagine they don't all teach that, but it is amazing how many of them do. It's quite a consistant story among those who have dealt with them.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 6, 2010)

Something beneficial would be to know the historical background of the Restoration Movement. Alexander Campbell was the leader of it. He was a Presbyterian who took a slippery slide away from good sound doctrine in the name of getting back to the Bible. 

Restoration Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CARM has a small article for Baptism you might enjoy.
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Here is James White on Baptismal regeneration
Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White


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## au5t1n (Apr 6, 2010)

> In the salvation of man's soul there are 2 necessary parts: God's part and man's part. God's part is the big part, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift if God; not of works, that no man should glory" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The love which God felt for man led him to send Christ into the world to redeem man. The life and teaching of Jesus, the sacrifice on the cross, and the proclaiming of the gospel to men constitute God's part in salvation.
> 
> Though God's part is the big part, man's part is also necessary if man is to reach heaven. Man must comply with the conditions of pardon which the Lord has announced.



From: Who are the churches of Christ?


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## LawrenceU (Apr 6, 2010)

Here we go again. . . 

I am a former member of the CofC, was educated in their school system, my matriarchal roots go all the way back to the Campbells. The vast majority of my family is still there, and very well connected.

As has been mentioned one cannot say the CofC believes X. Every congregation is different. There is no confession or creed. Having said that understand that there are a multitude of branches within the movement, several of which do not agree on many points. There are Pelagians, Semi-Peligians, Arminians, Amyraldians, and even Calvinisitc congregations within the churches of Christ. These branches tend to group around universities, Bible schools, and publication houses. Some of the more evangelical congregations are centered around Harding University, Abilene University, and Pepperdine University (centered being relational, not geographic). Some of the more acerbic congregations are centered around the Memphis School of Preaching, Freed Hardeman University, and the publishing houses.

There are great shifts taking place among the churches of Christ right now. First there is the group that is more like Max Lucado. They have become very ecumenical in the evangelicalism. A reaction to that is that the more 'conservative' groups have become even more line drawing in their acerbic pronouncements. Both of these have caused a great many young ministers and many elders to begin studying the Scriptures afresh, thereby drawing their congregation to a more orthodox position.

The church of Christ is not a cult. A cult has a central 'head' and a specific teaching. The International Church of Christ is a cult. They grew out of the disciple movement of the late sixties and early seventies that began in Gainesville, FL, moved to Boston, Mass. and have since spread across the globe. Are there non ICC congregations that have cultic tendencies? Yes. But, on the whole a great many of the people attending churches of Christ congregations have no idea what those leaders teach and say.

Frankly, unless one is in Western Tennessee, Eastern Texas, North Mississippi and Alabama, most folks sitting in a church of Christ pew believe pretty much what most other 'evangelical' Christians believe; except they will be amillennial rather than dispensational in their eschatology. Baptismal regeneration, except in small pockets, is not believed. Same thing for exclusivism in salvation.


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## KMK (Apr 6, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> Here we go again. . .
> 
> I am a former member of the CofC, was educated in their school system, my matriarchal roots go all the way back to the Campbells. The vast majority of my family is still there, and very well connected.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry you have to rehash this stuff every now and then, Lawrence, but your testimony is quite helpful. My experience jibes with what you say. Is there any reaction from the CofC in general to the hyper-preterist movement? Seeing they are fairly dogmatic about their amillenialism I would assume there would be some controversy.


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## LawrenceU (Apr 6, 2010)

The CofC castigated the HyperPrets when it first surfaced. They are personas non grata and rightly seen as heretics. Strangely, that is more than can be said for some more orthodox groups.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------

BTW, I didn't mean to imply exasperation in my first post. I realise that many folks have no real insight into the American Restoration Movement and its resultant churches. There is quite a bit on the PB from the past regarding them. Search engines are great things.


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## Sarah (Apr 30, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> BTW, I didn't mean to imply exasperation in my first post. I realise that many folks have no real insight into the American Restoration Movement and its resultant churches. There is quite a bit on the PB from the past regarding them. Search engines are great things.


 
It's quite possible that I'm inept at searching PB, but I didn't find a whole lot about the Restoration Movement.

I grew up in one of their churches (an independent Christian Church) but only rarely heard the term "restoration movement." In high school I could have picked out the term on a multiple choice test, but I don't think I could have told it to you without the option available to choose from. The church's history in the movement didn't seem to be something that was talked about or preached on much. Most of my family members have been active in church leadership in restoration movement churches and attended their Bible Colleges, but I wasn't raised thinking we were the only true Christians. I did have a sense that denominations were wrong (but still Christian) and that believer's baptism was highly important. I don't know, but I would guess based on my experience that a lot of people who go to restoration movement churches don't know they are part of the "restoration movement" and couldn't tell you what that is.


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## Willem van Oranje (Apr 30, 2010)

Jack K said:


> The Churches of Christ (notice the plural) are congregational and therefore it's hard to say what they believe as a group. But, yes, baptismal regeneration is pretty standard and they're strongly Arminian and works-oriented.
> 
> I've known them to target believers from other churches by telling them they aren't saved and must be baptized in a C of C (they went after me when I was a college freshman). In that way, their effect on the church is similar to that of a cult. But I don't think I'd call them one. Those C of C I've known are in line with, say, the Apostle's Creed. So I'd only go so far as to say they hold serious and damaging errors.


 
Can someone please define, "cult"?

I take "cult" to mean, a false church, usually characterized by a claim of some sort to be the "one" or "only" true church. By this definition, any church which teaches a form of justification by works-righteousness would qualify as a cult, and if they made a claim that other Christian churches were not true Christian Churches, this would add weight to the charge. Under this definition, based on what I have known from speaking with members of the "Churches of Christ", I believe that they do qualify as "cult" i. e. "false church", by their doctrine that justification is by faith+works. And their denunciation of all "denominations" as not being Christian churches merely adds weight to my conclusion. (Note that this is not to say that God does not have his elect among them.)


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## MLCOPE2 (Apr 30, 2010)

The church that I attended while growing up was a "Christian Church", a descendant of the restoration movement along with DoC and CoC. After I had been saved and grounded in a conservative baptist church (unfortunately still in my Dispensational days) I attended a service with my grandfather. The sermon was on Romans 6:3-4 and the subject was Baptismal Regeneration (not the sermon title, I can't remember it). And I will never forget this, the Pastor actually argued from this passage that if someone is not baptized by full immersion then whatever part of their body that remains out of the waters of baptism will not be present in the resurrection!!! He seriously stated that if one is baptized and your arm or the top of your head does not go completely under then you will not have those parts in your resurrected body! I was flabbergasted. My wife and I quietly sat through the rest of the service and turned tail as soon as the last song was sung. Needless to say we have yet to return.


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## Willem van Oranje (May 1, 2010)

MLCOPE2 said:


> The church that I attended while growing up was a "Christian Church", a descendant of the restoration movement along with DoC and CoC. After I had been saved and grounded in a conservative baptist church (unfortunately still in my Dispensational days) I attended a service with my grandfather. The sermon was on Romans 6:3-4 and the subject was Baptismal Regeneration (not the sermon title, I can't remember it). And I will never forget this, the Pastor actually argued from this passage that if someone is not baptized by full immersion then whatever part of their body that remains out of the waters of baptism will not be present in the resurrection!!! He seriously stated that if one is baptized and your arm or the top of your head does not go completely under then you will not have those parts in your resurrected body! I was flabbergasted. My wife and I quietly sat through the rest of the service and turned tail as soon as the last song was sung. Needless to say we have yet to return.


 
This kind of thinking is similar to Mormonism. In fact, there are a lot of similarities, if you compare their histories.


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## Damon Rambo (May 1, 2010)

Jack K said:


> I've known them to target believers from other churches by telling them they aren't saved and must be baptized in a C of C


 
Many Landmark Baptists teach the same.

---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 AM ----------




MLCOPE2 said:


> The church that I attended while growing up was a "Christian Church", a descendant of the restoration movement along with DoC and CoC. After I had been saved and grounded in a conservative baptist church (unfortunately still in my Dispensational days) I attended a service with my grandfather. The sermon was on Romans 6:3-4 and the subject was Baptismal Regeneration (not the sermon title, I can't remember it). And I will never forget this, the Pastor actually argued from this passage that if someone is not baptized by full immersion then whatever part of their body that remains out of the waters of baptism will not be present in the resurrection!!! He seriously stated that if one is baptized and your arm or the top of your head does not go completely under then you will not have those parts in your resurrected body! I was flabbergasted. My wife and I quietly sat through the rest of the service and turned tail as soon as the last song was sung. Needless to say we have yet to return.


 
This is not typical.

I have discussed this subject with some very notable people in the Church of Christ churches, such as Mac Lynn. Let me just say that "Baptismal regeneration" is the wrong word for the Church of Christ position on baptism. Precisely what they believe, from my discussions with them, is that "baptism is the normal mode by which believers express saving faith, and are saved." A modern equivalent would be the "sinner's prayer" taught in many Baptist and Bible Churches today. I cannot recall how many Baptist preachers I have heard say things like "Your not saved, till you 'prayed that prayer'". Same thing as the CoC idea, in my opinion.

No one here would suggest that Augustine was not saved, would they? Or that he was "not a true Christian"? That he was a cult leader? The doctrine of the CoC is really just Augustinian baptism, with a believer/immersion twist. Saying that Baptism is the normal mode for coming to faith in Christ (they generally concede, for instance, that God makes exceptions for people like the thief on the cross), is definitely wrong, in my opinion, but it is not sufficient for making a group a cult.


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## Pilgrim72 (May 1, 2010)

When I was in college, in the 90's, we had many "disciples" from the "L.A. Church of Christ" on our campus, which was a cultic offshoot from the CoC. They were headed by a man named Kip McKean (sp?) and spent much of their free time on campus making disciples. This cult was built off the Pyramid Scheme business model, with Kip at the top. My Christian friends and I would spend a lot of time talking with these guys, telling them about the evils of their "church". They were cultic in their belief system, and they were socially cultic as well. These kids were encouraged to move out of their parents homes and move into shared housing with other disciples, where they would be continually brainwashed by leaders in the group. School would then become secondary and making disciples was primary. They had to bring in converts, just like those in the pyramid schemes have to get people under them, or they would not move up.
It was sad to see this, as I saw many really nice friendly people lose it emotionally as the presure to make disciples was put on them. This almost always ruined their personal lives, their schooling, and their relationships with their family. Most of these guys had to shun friends and family that were not disciples. Thankfully, the L.A. CoC was one of the fastest moving (in the sense of gaining & losing members) cults in the world.
A friend and I even went to one of their Sunday services to see what it was like. It was at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles and Kip spoke, along with a few ofther guest speakers (including a pro Basketball player). It was like a huge pep rally. And at the end they baptized some people in this massive jacuzzi looking tub, to show some people getting saved. Something interesting happened during that event that I remember well. This poor girl from the Philippines came out to be baptized and they dunked her down and she came up all excited about being saved, but one of the dunkers had to inform her that she was not fully saved yet because her elbow was sticking up out of the water. So they had to dunk her again, hopefully bringing salvation to her soul this time around. Sadly, her elbow was sticking up out of the water the second time. Therefore she had to be nearly drowned as they dunked her a third time making sure her elbow made it all the way in.

I was sad. Sad to see this. Sad to see all these young people looking for something to satisfy their spiritual need and to be given this counterfeit.

The L.A. Church of Christ is/was a cult (not sure if it still exists today). I know there were others like it around the country.
But the mainline Church of Christ is not a cult. Isn't this the church that Max Lucado belongs to?

Anyway, those are my experiences with the cultic version of the CoC.


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