# Do You Worship the Bible? Why or Why Not?



## alwaysreforming (Mar 21, 2005)

I remember when listening to a "White Horse Inn" show, a caller called in objecting to the material presented and accused the cast of "worshipping the Bible."

Instead of defending themselves (which I expected), they agreed with the caller and said, "I do. I do worship the Bible. As if it were God Himself speaking to me because this is the Word of God."

My quote might not be entirely accurate, but for the most part this is what was said. It surprised me because I'd never heard of someone proclaiming that they "worship" the Bible. Could any of you say the same?


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 21, 2005)

You cannot separate God from His Word. "I am the Way the Truth and the Light", "Thy Word is Truth".

One cannot know God without knowing His Bible. One cannot worship God without being directed in the proper manner, by his Bible.


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## The Lamb (Mar 21, 2005)

Yes it is possible. You can know the book, but not its author. Christ specificaly mentions this in John 5.

Ye seacrh the scriptures because in them ye think you can find life, but you will not come to me"


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## Authorised (Mar 21, 2005)

To say, though, that one worships the Bible is still a very strange manner in which to give it reverence. They most likely mean, of course, "the Bible" as a metonym for the content thereof, (or the Author as well), and not necessarily the literal ink and pages. 

It's still an unfortunate phrase. I wouldn't describe myself as a Bible-worshipper. 

Weird.


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Yes it is possible. You can know the book, but not its author. Christ specificaly mentions this in John 5.
> 
> Ye seacrh the scriptures because in them ye think you can find life, but you will not come to me"


good point.


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## RamistThomist (Mar 21, 2005)

When liberals accuse us of worshipping the Bible they are merely trying cover up their rebellion to God. Yes, certain fundamentalists can die on the wrong hill but that is usually not the case.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 21, 2005)

Hmmm...

I dont like their answer. Because though we ahve the word of God in our NKJV or whatever... Its still a translation of the Word of God. In essence you would be worshipping the translators who are human and prone to error. 

The Bible or The law points us to Christ whom we are commanded to worship. Not a 'book'.

Blade


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Yes it is possible. You can know the book, but not its author. Christ specificaly mentions this in John 5.
> 
> Ye seacrh the scriptures because in them ye think you can find life, but you will not come to me"


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## BobVigneault (Mar 22, 2005)

You guys should come up with a definition of the word "worship" and then come at this again and see if you 'worship' the Bible or not.


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> You guys should come up with a definition of the word "worship" and then come at this again and see if you 'worship' the Bible or not.




The phrase Bibliolotry is possible. Like I said previously we must know the author. An man can read the scriptures and know them. He may be able to argue the 5 points. Be well versed in the creeds and confessions. But still not know Christ or be known by Him. It is completely a different animal to encounter the risen Lord, than trying to find him yourself in the Book or creed or confession.

Perhaps the best example of this could be the Pharassees(sp). They "knew" the precepts. But obviously did not know God.


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## Arch2k (Mar 22, 2005)

We as Calvinists hold the Bible to be the Word of God. It is my belief that it is no coincidence that Jesus himself is called the "Word" of God (John 1:1). In fact, if you read portions of Scripture, it is almost impossible to separate the two. For example, 

Hebrews 4:12-13

" For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

Note the transition from what most people believe in verse 12 to be talking of Scripture, and the personal pronoun "him" in verse 13. It goes from an "it" to a "him."

Also, consider how many times God is called "truth", "wisdom" etc. throughout scripture. Consider Col. 2:2-3 for example:

"to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

In Christ are hidden all the treasures knowledge. This is what the Bible IS. The Bible is not pages with ink on it, it is truth given in propositional form. Truth has power-the gospel has power-the Word has power-Christ has power. 

Jeremiah Burroughs defined worship as thoughts about God. Any time we think about God, it should be thoughts about him that are revealed in Scripture. It is at this point that worshipping the truth found in the Bible and worshipping God are no different. Thinking about the truth about the person, and thinking about the person are no different.


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> We as Calvinists hold the Bible to be the Word of God.



Jeff, I do not believe this is special to calvinists. 







Joseph


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## Arch2k (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> ...



I was not suggesting that only Calvinists believe the Bible is the Word of God...simply suggesting that all Calvinists DO.


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## The Lamb (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



Ah yes, but as CHS once said, "There is a Calvinist road to hell just as there is an arminian road to hell"

Again, the Pharasees are a perfect example of what I am saying. They knew the scriptures in and out. But who was Christ more against? Them or those not knowledgable of the Scriptures?

Look out here comes that big ole camel


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## Arch2k (Mar 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> ...



Regardless of if I agree or not that a Calvinist can be lost, that was not the statement I made. I said that a Calvinist believes the Bible to be the Word of God. They do.


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## Robin (Mar 23, 2005)

I worship the Bible completely - as though God Himself were speaking right from the Text - as though His Words were audible and directly spoken - and when our Pastor preaches from the pulpit each Lord's Day - it is as though Christ Himself were speaking through him - with His own Words from the Book He has written about Himself.

Psalm 119

Robin


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

If we define worship as 'acknowledging the worth and value' of something then yes, I worship the Bible in that I acknowledge it as the ultimate source of truth and authority, for it's all-sufficiency, for it's divine origin, for being that which defines us and the world around us and as the only revelation of God's revealed will and the precious gospel message.

I worship the Bible in that I recognize it as unique and sanctified above and beyond all literature and as the dynamic, living sword of the Spirit. I worship the Bible in the spirit of Psalm 119.


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> If we define worship as 'acknowledging the worth and value' of something then yes, I worship the Bible in that I acknowledge it as the ultimate source of truth and authority, for it's all-sufficiency, for it's divine origin, for being that which defines us and the world around us and as the only revelation of God's revealed will and the precious gospel message.
> 
> I worship the Bible in that I recognize it as unique and sanctified above and beyond all literature and as the dynamic, living sword of the Spirit. I worship the Bible in the spirit of Psalm 119.




Said very well.

Jeff: I was joking with you.

Robin: Very emphatic in that response. Hurray for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess what I may be asking is this. :Can a person be saved without the Bible? I believe yes. Can a person be saved without Christ? No.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

But Joseph, a person is only saved by the Christ of the Bible. Many are hawking a 'Christ' apart from the bible today. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Bible may be transmitted by a preacher , a layman, a tract, but the Bible is an ingredient that must be included in there somewhere. 

The first principle must be that the Bible is God's Word, even before principles such as 'there is a God', 'Jesus is Lord', for without the Bible their is no source of truth to turn to. God is before all things but revelation comes from scripture. 

I agree if you change your question to, "Can a person be saved apart from the Christ of the Bible? No.

[Edited on 3-23-2005 by maxdetail]


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> But Joseph, a person is only saved by the Christ of the Bible. Many are hawking a 'Christ' apart from the bible today. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Bible may be transmitted by a preacher , a layman, a tract, but the Bible is an ingredient that must be included in there somewhere.
> 
> The first principle must be that the Bible is God's Word, even before principles such as 'there is a God', 'Jesus is Lord', for without the Bible their is no source of truth to turn to. God is before all things but revelation comes from scripture.
> ...




Let me throw this out to you max.

How were those saved prior to the compilation of the Bible? I am sspeaking of the book itself, not the Word contained in the book. 

When Christ encountered a person in the Gospels. What saved them? Was it Christ or the Scriptures?

For instance, let us look at Lydia also. We read she worshipped God, but was unregenerate until her heart was pricked, then she could understand the words spoken to her.

I believe a pserson is saved by Christ alone, then conversion happens because of scripture. 

I am not sperating Christ from His Word. I am seperating Christs saving work from the compilation of the Bible.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

"When Christ encountered a person in the Gospels" these people were also encountering the Christ of the Gospels. It was truly a personal encounter, we can only present the Christ recorded in the scripture. Lydia encountered Christ through an apostle who spoke with the authority of scripture. Old Testament folks were saved by the same Christ as he was revealed by the prophets and rituals written in scripture.

I understand where you are going with this but I'm not sure it's a distinction that needs to be made, nor is it profitable. Christs saving work is applied by the Holy Spirit in accordance with and through the Word. Christs saving work was finished on the cross but that means nothing unless the Spirit opens our ears (or gives understanding) to hear the Word.


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> "When Christ encountered a person in the Gospels" these people were also encountering the Christ of the Gospels. It was truly a personal encounter, we can only present the Christ recorded in the scripture. Lydia encountered Christ through an apostle who spoke with the authority of scripture. Old Testament folks were saved by the same Christ as he was revealed by the prophets and rituals written in scripture.
> 
> I understand where you are going with this but I'm not sure it's a distinction that needs to be made, nor is it profitable. Christs saving work is applied by the Holy Spirit in accordance with and through the Word. Christs saving work was finished on the cross but that means nothing unless the Spirit opens our ears (or gives understanding) to hear the Word.




I agree with what you are saying. To clarify where I am going is in relation to the opening post. And to return to my premise, I believe Scripture attests to the fact that a person can "worship" the bible without knowing the author. 

Those in John 5 and Matt 7 are great examples. These people neither knew the Lord, nor were known by Him, but knew the scriptures. When the distinction is looked upon as this, it is profitable. 

The bible itself profits nothing unless the Spirit points a person to Christ. 

I am in no way saying throw out the Bible, but look at history and see how the bible has been used to promote heresy and abominable events. 

Once a person is born again, saved by the Spirit, then and only then will the words of Scripture be profitable. Converting that person into the image of Christ.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

But again Joseph, it comes down to how you are defining worship. In Psam 119, the writer clearly knows the God of the Bible. Pagans may 'worship' anything and do. If and when the bible has been used to promote heresy then it was because of bad hermeneutics, not a weakness of scripture.

The Word of the Lord never returns to the Lord before it has completed it's work. It guides, judges, defines, saves, sanctifies or produces some effect in everyone that hears it.

I think the KJV onlyists best represent what you are describing. They see ultimate value in one translation regardless of historical and hermeneutical criteria.

"The bible itself profits nothing unless the Spirit points a person to Christ. "

I would disagree with that because the Bible clearly condemns those who reject Christ. No one is without excuse because God has spoken. That may not profit the condemned but it glorifies the Creator.


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> But again Joseph, it comes down to how you are defining worship. In Psam 119, the writer clearly knows the God of the Bible. Pagans may 'worship' anything and do. If and when the bible has been used to promote heresy then it was because of bad hermeneutics, not a weakness of scripture.
> 
> The Word of the Lord never returns to the Lord before it has completed it's work. It guides, judges, defines, saves, sanctifies or produces some effect in everyone that hears it.
> ...




Of course david knew the Lord, but more importantly was known by the Lord. I do not believe the gulf between us is wide. We may in fact be talking past each other.

Of course heresey is not because of Scripture itself. The poinbt I am making is more than hermeneutics. Anyone can and has made the bible say a lot of things that are not intended. 

Look at the apostles themselves, they lived with Christ, and yet still did not understand the prophecies of the Messiah in the Sacred Scriptures. 

I do not believe anyone can deny the fact that without the Spirits guidance, the words alone pofit nothing.


Christ said in John 6. "The flesh profits nothing"


The Gospel either hardens or converts. I believe those are the only 2 options. 


I enjoy this dialogue max. You are truley humble and show much charity.

In His Grace


Joseph


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes, I do believe we are in agreement Joseph and if I wasn't at work I wouldn't seem to be talking past you. I'm economizing more than I wish I had to. 

Just to summarize:

1. I agree, one can know the Word without knowing the author.

2. I do worship the Bible (just as David does in Ps. 119.

3. At first I was reacting against the argument of the noble savage - that one can be saved though never hearing the Word. You never brought that up but I thought you were going in that direction. You were not.

4. Yes, I am very humble, I'm the most humble person I know.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> 4. Yes, I am very humble, I'm the most humble person I know.



Hey, I thought I was!


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## BobVigneault (Mar 23, 2005)

Honestly Andrew, I was thinking of you. I think you might be the most humble but it's really close. Let's fall back on our quotient of charity. That one may just put me over the top.

No..... I'm wrong, Virginia is for lovers. Rats! I was close. What do you say we head over to the Puritan Pub and quaff a couple to our humility?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 23, 2005)

heh heh

You got it, Bob!


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Yes, I do believe we are in agreement Joseph and if I wasn't at work I wouldn't seem to be talking past you. I'm economizing more than I wish I had to.
> 
> Just to summarize:
> ...




I am at work also brother. 

I do not like to touch #4 on your list. I trust God completely that He is just. But ROmans 1 -2 speaks clearly on that topic I believe. Anyway. May God Bless you and yours.


In His Grace

Joseph


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## Robin (Mar 23, 2005)

Guys....

You've bought into a false-dichotomy....with respect....

Jesus IS the Word (we all know this of course)...He condemned the Pharisees because they searched the Scriptures and yet missed the point that the Word is Christ. (Also see Luke 24 to the Emmaus disciples; Jesus says the OT is about Him. Even these guys got it wrong!) We should deal with this question no differently than Christ did.

All of the OT is about Christ and *IS* Christ in the sense that He is the Divine Author of the Words in Scripture. Every scrap of knowledge we have about God comes from His self revelation. Period.

The confusion today is the same than what Christ confronted the Pharisees with--- there will always be those who self-righteously seek knowledge -- trusting in their own self-sufficiency and even those that use Christ and His Name for their own agendas. Basically, there are 2 kinds of unbelievers: Pharisees and Greeks - one type is the one-true-religion's "self-styled;self-righteous" the other is pagan, endlessly searching for man's wisdom to justify their self-sufficiency. (See Paul's apologetic about this in Acts.)

It's not the paper-ink-goat-hide that is being worshipped....rather we acknowledge the fact that the words in Scripture are the very ideas from the mind of God! We bow to the precious nature of these words; to their authority, as if Christ were standing in front of us, speaking the words to our face.

This "argument" of worshipping the Bible is utterly confusing and prevails because many Christians don't treat such a charge with Scripture. I vote that we confront such charges as Jesus and Paul did. This is the best way to go --- I doubt very much that these days any of us could come close to the discipline and true devotion the Pharisees possessed. Though they were flat wrong with their conclusions -- the amount of study they engaged in was formidable. In modeling Christ's "tactic" in dealing with this problem -- shall we not uphold His honor appropriately?

The Godhead necessarily cannot be seperated from His Divine disclosures - the Holy Scriptures.



Robin


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## The Lamb (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> Guys....
> 
> You've bought into a false-dichotomy....with respect....
> ...



Robin: I do not see where we are doing it. John 5 is correctly interpreted by saying the scriptures present no life giving power in and of themselves. So there is no false dichotomy, whatever that is. I get confused with all these labes.

false dichotomy, red herring, straw man, ad homenum etc etc etc.

The reason the truth is revealed to a person is because it comes from God Himself. Just look at when Peter exclaimed He is the Messiah. What did Christ say? He received this revelation from God. Paul received the final revelation from Christ. And Paul was a Jew of Jews. Until one is regenerate, the scriptures wil not bring any profit..

I agree the Bible is the Word of God. I believe that 100%. But without the Spirit, there is nothing efficacious to anyone.

If there was a penny avaliable, I would give you change for your 2 cents Robin. Perhaps scott can create one!!!!!!!!!

I do not follow your last two points clearly either.


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