# Kick'n and Scream'n



## Reformingstudent (Dec 13, 2006)

I have often heard it said that some came to the truths of Calvinism fighting it every step of the way until there was no more fight left in them and they slowly gave into the truths they once denied and fought against. 
Was it this way for any here and if so, how were you made to see the truth and what was it that brought it home to you. For me it was the book the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. It was given to me by of all things, a tongues talking, Charismatic preacher. God does move in mysterious ways.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 13, 2006)

Reformingstudent said:


> I have often heard it said that some came to the truths of Calvinism fighting it every step of the way until there was no more fight left in them and they slowly gave into the truths they once denied and fought against.
> Was it this way for any here and if so, how were you made to see the truth and what was it that brought it home to you. For me it was the book the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. It was given to me by of all things, a tongues talking, Charismatic preacher. God does move in mysterious ways.



I know a Calvinistic Southern Baptist preacher who was formerly in the Church of the Nazarene. Years ago he was given Pink's book by another Nazarene preacher who told him there were some things in there he needed to learn, amazingly enough. So you aren't the first to be given Pink's book by an Arminian! 

I accepted the doctrines of grace when I was first exposed to them in one of John MacArthur's books, which was almost immediately after my conversion. But it's probably not going too far to say that I was nearly dragged kicking and screaming into Presbyterianism.


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## Devin (Dec 13, 2006)

I can't really relate to that type of conversion myself. When some Calvinist friends showed me texts like John 6 and Ephesians 1, I didn't spend much time rebelling against them. I thought such Scriptures were pretty simple and straight forward. It just took some time to rearrange other pieces (free will, fairness, etc) to the puzzle and make them all fit.


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## Reformingstudent (Dec 13, 2006)

Thanks guys. I know that if your like me, your still amazed at how much truth the Lord has permitted you to see and understand. I still have a long way to go in my understanding of certain things and am so grateful that He is ever so patient with me.


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## Timothy William (Dec 13, 2006)

I was in an odd situation - saved in churches that ranged from mostly Arminian to so-called 4 point Calvinist. I always believed in Total Depravity, even before conversion, and some thought that I was much too extreme because I didn't believe that I could just decide to convert myself and believe the gospel. I guess I moved definitively towards Reformed theology in the midst of a major spiritual crisis 4-5 years later when I was doubting my salvation (I still have doubts) and various people told me to "just look to Jesus, look to the Cross" and I thought "that doesn't work, because I'm not saved just because Christ died for me - after all, He died for some who will perish eternally." 

At that point I don't think I had ever heard of limited atonement in my life. I thought "I have to trust in my believing, because that is the decisive factor, but I can't trust in that, because I know I am not capable of maintaining my belief by my own effort." I stumbled on A Puritan's Mind about a year later (four years ago now) and was hooked, it was a whole new way of looking at things, I felt amazed, I never knew so many famous Christians had believed such things. Limited Atonement was actually about the easiest thing to accept, perhaps because of my aforementioned problems with the inconsistencies of Universal Atonement. perseverance of the Saints was the hardest thing, I was strongly attached to the idea that a Christian could completely fall away. It was a great relief to realise a couple of months later that I didn't have to fear God letting go of me.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 13, 2006)

Truths like the D of G are treasures. Anyone who kick and screams against them are probably still unregenerated. Let me qualify that statement: The D of G as a whole system, if rejected once exposed, certainly would reflect one's position in the Lord.


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## Timothy William (Dec 13, 2006)

Scott Bushey said:


> Truths like the D of G are treasures. Anyone who kick and screams against them are probably still unregenerated. Let me qualify that statement: The D of G as a whole system, if rejected once exposed, certainly would reflect one's position in the Lord.



I think one can have some serious - and seriously held - errors in one's doctrine and still be saved. A believer may finally come to accept the doctrines of grace after much struggle. Even in believers the old worldly man still wars against the indwelling Spirit, wanting some of the glory for itself. But I think there will be a struggle - if the Spirit of God dwells within a man, He will not stay quiet while the truth is disparaged. 

The people who give me pause as to their regeneration are those who hear the D of G and dismiss the system out of hand, who are convinced, untroubled consistent rejecters of the truth. Surely if they truely believe then there must be _something_ inside them which tells them that their doctrine is mistaken? Surely they would see something of the truth when it was presented to them, even if their old prejudices die hard?


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## Blue Tick (Dec 13, 2006)

When presented with the DoG two things happen:

1. People are challenged to articulate and confess what they believe. Some solidify what they already believe,i.e., worship of a false god and false image of God.


2. Others see the error of their belief and repent of their rebellion.


Whenever I share the DoG with someone (at least with Arminians) that kicking and screaming is the absolute hatred that the natural man has for God. Remember not only were we dead in our sins but we were children of wrath and haters of God. 

However, on the flip side I have shared the DoG with non-professing Christians and have seen more understanding and fear of the Lord than from the Arminian camp. I'm not saying that they were converted but it seems there is less resistance and baggage when I share with non-professing Christians than with Arminians.


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## Staphlobob (Dec 13, 2006)

Timothy William said:


> I think one can have some serious - and seriously held - errors in one's doctrine and still be saved. A believer may finally come to accept the doctrines of grace after much struggle.
> 
> 
> > Yup. Happened with me. Starting out as Roman clergy, I moved into *very* liberal Lutheranism. Became a believer and a strong conservative Lutheran in '94. But readin', prayin', and lotsa spiritual fightin' finally forced me to my knees in submissive adoration of the sovereign Lord and full acceptance of the DoG.
> ...


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## BobVigneault (Dec 13, 2006)

We discussed along similar lines in this thread.


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## MrMerlin777 (Dec 13, 2006)

When I was comming to the doctrines of grace. My wife literally thought I was going crazy. I would pace the floor in the living room with the Scriptures in one hand and a glass of iced tea in the other. I'd read a passage and talk out loud to God. Then I'd talk to myself. Finally after about 6 months of this I finally threw up my hands one evening, then fell to my knees and tears in eyes cried," I believe your word Lord! I believe your word!" 

I guess you could say I was dragged kickin' and screamin' to the doctrines of God's sovereign mercy and grace.


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