# Giving In Worship



## Smeagol (Feb 17, 2019)

My intent is not to start a debate on wether an offering “is” or “is not” an Element of worship, so please let’s not go there in this thread.

Let us assume that giving tithes in public worship “IS” an element.

In my congregation we pass the plate in both the morning and evening worship. Usually I place my family’s tithe in the plate every other Sunday (I am paid every 2 weeks) during the morning service.

IF the giving of tithes is an element of worship, should I not split up my tithes to be able to place something in the plate every Sunday during both the AM and PM services?

This is a honest question. If I hold, as the PCA and I believe the OPC do, that giving is an element in the service, then am I failing to worship the Lord as he has commanded if I let the plate pass by and place nothing in it?


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## jwithnell (Feb 17, 2019)

Do you have a baptism at every service? Circumstances drive some of what's in worship at any given time. Take the time to meditate on what the Lord has given you, recognizing that all you have is his. You also could pray for any specific monitary need in the congregation.

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## Tom Hart (Feb 17, 2019)

I'm not a fan of passing the plate at all.

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## JimmyH (Feb 17, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> I'm not a fan of passing the plate at all.


I bring my offering the first Sunday of every month, being that I get my SS & pension once per month. I don't feel convicted when the plate is passed during the morning and evening services. God knows my heart, and my practice.

I'm in the OPC. The Book Of Church Order (page 139) addresses the offering (emboldened text, and underlining, emphasis mine) ;

4. The Bringing of Offerings a. *The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God.* The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Feb 17, 2019)

Grant Jones said:


> My intent is not to start a debate on wether an offering “is” or “is not” an Element of worship, so please let’s not go there in this thread.
> 
> Let us assume that giving tithes in public worship “IS” an element.
> 
> ...


We tithe every week but I get paid every other. I think you're on to something good but not necessary.

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## Edward (Feb 17, 2019)

Grant Jones said:


> IF the giving of tithes is an element of worship, should I not split up my tithes to be able to place something in the plate every Sunday during both the AM and PM services?



If you don't give until you get paid, that means that you are withholding half the money for a week. In that case, you should gross up your giving the second week to make up the time value of the money that you did not timely give to the church. 

Now, in the current US economy, that would be minuscule, but in times of high interest rates (like the Ford - Carter economy) or if the economy hit a period of hyperinflation (Venezuela, Wiemar Germany, Mugabe's Rhodesia, etc), the adjustments might be significant.

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## SolaScriptura (Feb 17, 2019)

My opinion - and regardless of how some may think, opinions are all we really have in this matter - is that we should tithe of our gain. So when do you experience gain? Typically, that’s your payday. My opinion is that you should give when you get paid. 

Beware of the temptation to be reckoned pious by being seen as giving: if you get paid once per month, then give once per month when you experience that gain. Or give twice a month according to when you are paid, etc. Beware of the temptation to divide that tithe out from that one paycheck you received into a number of smaller amounts just so you can be seen as giving every week.

Of course, as I said, this is just my opinion.

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## TheOldCourse (Feb 17, 2019)

SolaScriptura said:


> My opinion - and regardless of how some may think, opinions are all we really have in this matter - is that we should tithe of our gain. So when do you experience gain? Typically, that’s your payday. My opinion is that you should give when you get paid.
> 
> Beware of the temptation to be reckoned pious by being seen as giving: if you get paid once per month, then give once per month when you experience that gain. Or give twice a month according to when you are paid, etc. Beware of the temptation to divide that tithe out from that one paycheck you received into a number of smaller amounts just so you can be seen as giving every week.
> 
> Of course, as I said, this is just my opinion.



This does seem to be the way things worked under the law in Israel.


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## iainduguid (Feb 17, 2019)

Since tithing in the OT only covers agricultural produce, it would never have been a weekly practice (or bi-weekly, or monthly). Besides, according to Deuteronomy 14, one of the primary purposes of the tithe was to finance an annual family party in the temple precincts, including adult beverages. So your contribution to the church potluck is also part of your "tithe". It you want to bring an offering, you can bring it whenever you desire (though the NT suggests a weekly offering to promote consistency). If our goal is to excel in the grace of giving, as Paul urges us, then it isn't a duty to be undertaken "just right". The heart attitude is always going to be more important than the amount or the manner.

By the way, you are behind the times if you are still writing checks. These days you can simply give online. Some churches produce slips of paper that you can put in the offering basket that say "I gave online" so you can still participate as the offering goes around if you wish.

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## Edward (Feb 17, 2019)

iainduguid said:


> These days you can simply give online.



One should consider increasing their giving to cover the additional costs associated with online giving if one uses a debit or credit card. On the other hand, EFT transactions may be cheaper for the church than checks. 

From our church web site: 

"Please note that the convenience of credit and debit card giving costs the church 2.2% of the amount per transaction. Please consider increasing your contribution to include the additional charge incurred by the church."

"You can also give through electronic funds transfer through the PCPC website. By logging in and providing your bank routing number and account number information, your funds can be sent to PCPC directly. This means of giving incurs the lowest fees other than cash gifts."

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## Von (Feb 18, 2019)

iainduguid said:


> Some churches produce slips of paper that you can put in the offering basket that say "I gave online" so you can still participate as the offering goes around if you wish.


Thank you for that! It just solved a problem that I've wrestled with for a long time: by giving online, you might cause offense during the service if you don't tithe.


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## iainduguid (Feb 18, 2019)

Edward said:


> One should consider increasing their giving to cover the additional costs associated with online giving if one uses a debit or credit card. On the other hand, EFT transactions may be cheaper for the church than checks.
> 
> From our church web site:
> 
> ...


The ARP has a mechanism whereby people can give online (from their bank account, not credit card) with zero cost to the giver or the local church plant (not sure if it applies for established churches). Of course the denomination is bearing some administrative costs to do so, and it might not suit every church, but it is possible to do. It might be worth denominations looking into.

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## Bill Duncan (Feb 18, 2019)

Grant, Seeing as you are a Presbyterian I would suggest you look to the history as a help in your decision making. The Westminster 1645 "Directory for the Publick Worship of God" is silent except for special offerings for the poor. Thomas Boston was paid in grain and bacon which he could then sell to get money. Many Scottish ministers and their ministry was provided for by the Laird of the estate or barony in which he ministered. So taking up a collection was not easily done with baskets passed around the room. In America there is much accounting of both the Presbyterian and the Congregational church not practicing weekly tithing until the 19th century.

You should also probably remove the "the term "tithe" from your vocabulary because as Iain has said it was an agrarian term. In fact many of the early church fathers expand this to a more communal storing of possession. 
*John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)*
_“Woe to him, it is said, who doeth not alms; and if this was the case under the Old Covenant, much more is it under the New. If, where the getting of wealth was allowed and the enjoyment of it, and the care of it, there was such provision made for the succoring of the poor, how much more in that Dispensation, where we are commanded to surrender all we have? For what did not they of old do?_
_“They gave tithes, and tithes again upon tithes for orphans, widows, and strangers, whereas someone was saying to me in astonishment at another, ‘Why, such an one givest tithes.’ What a load of disgrace does this expression imply, since what was not a matter of wonder with the Jews has come to be so in the case of the Christians? If there was danger then in omitting tithes, think how great it must be now.”

After forty years of personally laboring this notion of the tithe I am convinced that the worship service giving should be ceremonial and expressive but not conscience binding. 

Don't let yourself be caught up in detailed accounting practices that only we in modern times who get paid much differently than the history of the world are able to perform. Also heed Ben's warning about what others see. Though from just a short while reading your stuff I don't see this as a problem for you. I've been on both sides of that issue, the "seer and the "seeee". Nasty business on both sides. Let your conscience be informed by the eternal Word not by modern interpretation._

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## JimmyH (Feb 18, 2019)

On the other hand, I've been a member of churches where the pastor doesn't always receive a weekly pay check. The offering doesn't always cover the costs of the building, insurances, etcetera. We are not to muzzle the ox which is treading out the corn.

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## Smeagol (Feb 18, 2019)

Bill Duncan said:


> Grant, Seeing as you are a Presbyterian I would suggest you look to the history as a help in your decision making. The Westminster 1645 "Directory for the Publick Worship of God" is silent except for special offerings for the poor. Thomas Boston was paid in grain and bacon which he could then sell to get money. Many Scottish ministers and their ministry was provided for by the Laird of the estate or barony in which he ministered. So taking up a collection was not easily done with baskets passed around the room. In America there is much accounting of both the Presbyterian and the Congregational church not practicing weekly tithing until the 19th century.
> 
> You should also probably remove the "the term "tithe" from your vocabulary because as Iain has said it was an agrarian term. In fact many of the early church fathers expand this to a more communal storing of possession.
> *John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)*
> ...


Bill,

Thanks for sharing. Currently, my preference would be a tithe box located in the front and/or back of the santurary, as I am not sure yet that I agree a collection belongs in the formal service (between the call to worship and benediction). Currently in my reading of scripture, our confession, and a wide span of Reformation liturgies I feel it should be done outside of the formal worship as defined above. Still chewing on this though.

I use the word tithe because that is what the “PCA BCO” uses in (54-1).
From the PCA BCO 54-1:

“The Holy Scriptures teach that God is the owner of all persons and all things and that we are but stewards of both life and possessions; that God’s ownership and our stewardship should be acknowledged; that this acknowledgement should take the form, in part, of giving at least a tithe of our income and other offerings to the work of the Lord through the Church of Jesus Christ, thus worshipping the Lord with our possessions; and that the remainder should be used as becomes Christians.”

Further, the reason I asked this question was because, though I am still wrestling with this personally, I am under the authority of my session and the current thinking is that a collection during the service is an element. Since this line of thinking is not “strange” even to some of the reformers, I do not see this as a matter to divide or cause “beef” over and am more than happy to comply as a cheerful giver.

I do not hold to the OT “tithe” being required today especially in light of my understanding of which laws were abrogated; however I DO see it as a good & solid baseline (general equity), which is derived from the OT. I actually believe the PCA BCO uses this language well in their BCO. I do not wish to debate that here necessarily, as there are many other PB threads that his have represented that dual

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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 18, 2019)

Our church keeps the offering plates in the foyer and I always drop an offering in on the way into the sanctuary.


Grant Jones said:


> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Currently, my preference would be a tithe box located in the front and/or back of the santurary,

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## Edward (Feb 18, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> I've been a member of churches where the pastor doesn't always receive a weekly pay check.



Few jobs these days do pay weekly.


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## Bill Duncan (Feb 18, 2019)

You do well to get this right in your mind as an ordained and avowed officer. Yes, the PCA uses the term tithe as a baseline, so you should definitely support that view. I agree that we might not have it right as a regulative principle, however.

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## Edward (Feb 18, 2019)

Von said:


> by giving online, you might cause offense during the service if you don't tithe.



The only thing that gives me offense during the service in connection with this issue is when someone refuses to touch the plate and pass it on down the pew so that I have to lean over him and give it to someone down the row. 

As to folks sitting in the pew paying attention to what others are putting or not putting in the plate - they are busybodies, and I wouldn't really care what they thought of me. It's their problem if they are offended, not mine. If you try to avoid giving offense for that, they'll find some other reason to be offended.

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## Smeagol (Feb 18, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Our church keeps the offering plates in the foyer and I always drop an offering in on the way into the sanctuary.



Chris,

I actually can’t believe I have not thought of that. Our plates sit at the foot of the pulpit and now that I think of it, I have seen checks in the plates before the Deacons ever grab them for the formal collection. Thanks for that!


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## Jake (Feb 18, 2019)

Regarding giving on-line and fees, there are options to not have such high fees associated. Our churches uses a feature from BB&T for non-profits which allows the church to have a very small (annual?) fee to use the service and then has no additional per transaction fees. It only allows ACH transfers from a savings or checkings account though.

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## JimmyH (Feb 18, 2019)

Edward said:


> Few jobs these days do pay weekly.


In the aforementioned congregations they are set up to pay weekly.


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## bookslover (Feb 18, 2019)

In my OPC church, we use bags, not plates. It's harder for people to check out what other people are giving when you use bags.

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## Edward (Feb 18, 2019)

bookslover said:


> In my OPC church, we use bags, not plates.



I visited Village Seven PCA in Colorado Springs many years ago, and they had little velvet bags with two wooden handles to pass for the collection.


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## Edward (Feb 18, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Our church keeps the offering plates in the foyer and I always drop an offering in on the way into the sanctuary.



I wouldn't recommend doing that with cash.


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## Jake (Feb 18, 2019)

Edward said:


> I wouldn't recommend doing that with cash.



The last church I was a member of had a box as you walked in. It functioned like a locking mail box with a slot and a lock.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 18, 2019)

True; pastor last year or maybe year before saw a vistor get up, walk out (only glass wall between sanctuary and foyer) and pocket the cash as he passed by the tray. 


Edward said:


> I wouldn't recommend doing that with cash.

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## monoergon (Feb 18, 2019)

Grant Jones, R. Scott Clark has written on that topic:
Is the Offering an Element, a Circumstance, or Neither?

You also might want to read this extract written by Thomas E. Peck, Moral Obligation of the Tithe.


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## terry43 (Feb 18, 2019)

I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law

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## bookslover (Feb 18, 2019)

terry43 said:


> I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
> My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law



Interesting post, Terry. And, have no fear! You're not the only woman on this site. Also: my pastor is from Buffalo, New York (raised in Grand Island, originally).

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## bookslover (Feb 18, 2019)

Edward said:


> I visited Village Seven PCA in Colorado Springs many years ago, and they had little velvet bags with two wooden handles to pass for the collection.



Yup. That's exactly what we've got.

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## Smeagol (Feb 18, 2019)

terry43 said:


> I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
> My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law


Thanks for sharing and I hope you continue to weigh in on Threads. However, this thread really has nothing to do with The OT Tithe still being binding or not (I hold it is not binding, other than the general equity from that law). No one on this thread has expressed ANY form of legalism as of yet. See Post # 15, for my reasoning for using the vocabulary word “tithe”, which was NOT in an OT binding manner.


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## Smeagol (Feb 18, 2019)

monoergon said:


> Grant Jones, R. Scott Clark has written on that topic:
> Is the Offering an Element, a Circumstance, or Neither?




Nathan thanks for sharing. Personally my view is in line R. Scott Clark’s on this matter. I would love to use a lock box. (I do still see a solid biblical case to be made to give/collect as an element of worship). However, the purpose of my OP was “let’s assume it as an Element” as it is in the PCA and OPC. I am an ordained Deacon with my congregation and the collection being in the service is decided by my session. Further, we are making solid strides at reforming other areas of our church currently (using wine and singing psalms). As such, considering the great variety even among Reformation liturgies, I have been submitting and helping with collections in the worship service. I will likely be giving my own funds as @NaphtaliPress recommended.


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## iainduguid (Feb 18, 2019)

terry43 said:


> I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
> My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law


It's a little more complex than that, but you are on the right track. If you want a fuller answer, you can check out my little ebook on the subject of tithing here:
https://www.amazon.com/Should-Christians-Tithe-Excelling-Giving-ebook/dp/B078SZ365X/ref=sr_1_19?

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## Smeagol (Feb 18, 2019)

@iainduguid 

How is money collected in your congregation? Is giving/collection viewed as an element in the ARP?


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## iainduguid (Feb 18, 2019)

Grant Jones said:


> @iainduguid
> 
> How is money collected in your congregation? Is giving/collection viewed as an element in the ARP?


We receive it during the worship service, as an element of worship. But I understand and am sympathetic with those who think we should have a box at the back and remove it from the worship service altogether, on the basis of the lack of clear biblical warrant for it as an element of worship. Clearly some gifts were offered at the temple in some kind of receptacle, though others, such as sacrificial animals, would have be hard to fit on a plate or in a box. It was an act of worship, I think, at least in many cases. In the NT, apart from the fact that the offering was gathered weekly by the church (1 Cor 16 can't mean they set it aside personally, otherwise it would have to have been collected when Paul came, which is what this practice is intended to avoid), there is little detail on how precisely this was to be done.

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## terry43 (Feb 18, 2019)

No doubt he might have been a part of the still sound BPC there.. a wonderful body of believers


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## bookslover (Feb 19, 2019)

iainduguid said:


> . . .on the basis of the lack of clear biblical warrant for it as an element of worship.



Therefore, being adiaphora, it doesn't much matter when you do it or how you do it - as long as you do it. It's something the Lord leaves to each congregation's discretion and sanctified common sense.

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## earl40 (Feb 19, 2019)

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

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## Bill Duncan (Feb 19, 2019)

Interesting question, Earl, We have Elders who don't put anything in the plate.


earl40 said:


> The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.


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## Smeagol (Feb 19, 2019)

earl40 said:


> The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.


Earl, this was basically my line of reasoning in the OP.


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## JimmyH (Feb 19, 2019)

earl40 said:


> The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.


I am one of two deacons in my congregation so I see what people give, if it is check, not cash. As has been mentioned, this is sort of 'uncomfortable' in a way. That aside, my fellow deacon was very concerned because, to put it in his words, "Some people are not tithing." 

Upon further discussion he amended that to 'not giving at all,' rather than the 10% stipulation. Our pastor has no idea who gives, how much, or who does not, and prefers that be the case. In terms of what to do with those who do not give ... My take is that it is a matter of the Spirit, and not something that deacons or elders can admonish individual believers over.

Pastors tend to dislike preaching sermons related to tithing/offering (unless they're on the radio) and we, the deacons, have encouraged our pastor to preach sermons addressing the duty of giving. Beyond that I don't see much we can do, it is a matter of the heart.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 19, 2019)

Stinginess in giving is something to be admonished appropriately when it is someway clear, but as James Durhjam pointed out (from an establishment pov c. 1658), that if Presbyterians insisted on a specific allotment of money from folks as the Congregationalist he was quoting insisted on (Thomas Hooker), the Presbyterians would have been immediately charged with tyranny and taking upon them the function of the state. 
We find the Reverend Master Hooker,_1_ lays these two conclusions. [1] That the church is to stint her members, and determine the _quota _of their charity and freewill offerings, and that of herself. [2] That if after the deacon’s private diligence, this is not given in, he is to follow the action before the church. Although we think defect of charity in this respect a great sin and an offense, and may be justly reproved, and the person admonished that is defective palpably in that which is proportionable to his ability; yet that such a particular stint should be made by church power, and exacted under such certification, we cannot yet find to be warrantable. Although we give the magistrate that liberty, and where he exercises it not, we acknowledge mutual condescension may do much. And we are sure, that if any such like thing should be found in the Presbyterial way, it had been charged with tyranny, and encroaching on the place of the magistrate long ere now; yet it may be (when it is well managed) no great corruption in a church.
1. _A Survey of the Sum of Church Discipline,_ (London, 1648), p. 57.​


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## iainduguid (Feb 19, 2019)

earl40 said:


> The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.


The simple answer is no. If someone refuses to give at all, that would be worthy of pastoral exploration certainly. But if they didn't give one week because they had given a double amount the previous time, there is nothing to admonish. And if they didn't give because their conscience was in favor of giving outside the worship service, it would be like an EP person who respectfully declined to sing hymns (we've had that situation in our church, and had no qualms about it). They are not absenting themselves from worship, merely honoring their conscience, something we should encourage not rebuke.

More broadly, just because something is an element of worship doesn't mean that everyone has to do it every time we gather. Baptism and oaths are elements of worship but only occasionally included, as needed.

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## Kinghezy (Feb 19, 2019)

For those whose churches have a collection during service, do they have way to keep it part of the rest of the lithurgy?

I feel like at mine, it ends up being sort of an announcement time while plates are being passed. Otherwise, I guess it would be an ackward couple minutes of silence. But it does not seem to fit with the rest of service to me.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 19, 2019)

It's done fast at our church as we are small and about the only thing it affords is an occasion for some brief mood mus... I mean an offertory. 


Kinghezy said:


> For those whose churches have a collection during service, do they have way to keep it part of the rest of the lithurgy?
> 
> I feel like at mine, it ends up being sort of an announcement time while plates are being passed. Otherwise, I guess it would be an ackward couple minutes of silence. But it does not seem to fit with the rest of service to me.

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## Kinghezy (Feb 19, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> the only thing it affords is an occasion for some brief mood mus... I mean an offertory.



A shame, no time for any ballet...


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## Smeagol (Feb 19, 2019)

Edward said:


> If you don't give until you get paid, that means that you are withholding half the money for a week. In that case, you should gross up your giving the second week to make up the time value of the money that you did not timely give to the church.
> 
> Now, in the current US economy, that would be minuscule, but in times of high interest rates (like the Ford - Carter economy) or if the economy hit a period of hyperinflation (Venezuela, Wiemar Germany, Mugabe's Rhodesia, etc), the adjustments might be significant.

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## JimmyH (Feb 19, 2019)

In our congregation it takes place after the OT reading. The ushers approach the lectern, the pastor offers a prayer, the collection is taken. The congregation stands, we sing the doxology while the ushers return the collection plates back to the table in front of the lectern. Then the NT reading, followed by going before our Lord in prayer followed by the sermon. For me the offering does not seem out of place in terms of a worship service. OTOH, I'm accustomed to that practice in any, and every church I've attended.

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## Edward (Feb 19, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> A shame, no time for any ballet...



You've never gotten to see me having to dance around the babies in carriers, and walkers, and support columns, and sometimes folding chairs to get to the pew, passing the plate on one side of the column and then getting back to the other side of the post to pick up the plate coming my way....


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## earl40 (Feb 19, 2019)

iainduguid said:


> The simple answer is no. If someone refuses to give at all, that would be worthy of pastoral exploration certainly. But if they didn't give one week because they had given a double amount the previous time, there is nothing to admonish. And if they didn't give because their conscience was in favor of giving outside the worship service, it would be like an EP person who respectfully declined to sing hymns (we've had that situation in our church, and had no qualms about it). They are not absenting themselves from worship, merely honoring their conscience, something we should encourage not rebuke.
> 
> More broadly, just because something is an element of worship doesn't mean that everyone has to do it every time we gather. Baptism and oaths are elements of worship but only occasionally included, as needed.



Reread your post and replace the word hymns with psalms in your example, and you will see it (the example) does not work, so far as EP goes.


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## Kinghezy (Feb 19, 2019)

@Grant Jones I think I have seen that same look from my daughter as well.

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## terry43 (Feb 19, 2019)

The initial poster referenced his tithe as did a few other..


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## Kinghezy (Feb 20, 2019)

terry43 said:


> The initial poster referenced his tithe as did a few other..



I was avoiding tithe and offering because of the old testament connotations. Grant addresses his use of the language tithe in https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/giving-in-worship.97433/#post-1190637. I think we are all saying the same thing. My church's bulletin has the oh so succinct "Worshipping God Through the Giving of Gifts".

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## bookslover (Feb 20, 2019)

Many years ago, a friend of mine attended a black church. During the offering, there were two plates set up at the front of the church, near the pulpit. People walked to the front of the church and placed their offerings in one or both of the plates. One plate was for the general fund for the church's expenses, and the other plate was for the pastor's salary!


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## Susan777 (Feb 20, 2019)

Edward said:


> I visited Village Seven PCA in Colorado Springs many years ago, and they had little velvet bags with two wooden handles to pass for the collection.


That’s what we use. At first I was afraid it was somewhat papist but it’s worked well for us. /sarc


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## Edward (Feb 20, 2019)

Susan777 said:


> That’s what we use. At first I was afraid it was somewhat papist but it’s worked well for us.



When I saw it, I thought it might be a Dutch thing.


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## ZackF (Feb 21, 2019)

Edward said:


> When I saw it, I thought it might be a Dutch thing.


I guess the Scotch would be too cheap to use velvet.

Catholics do often use baskets on a stick. It does prevent people from ignoring or spacing off and missing the plates like Ed was talking about.


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## Bill Duncan (Feb 21, 2019)

Yea, and the sticks can be used to prod the drowsy.


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## Smeagol (Feb 21, 2019)

Bill Duncan said:


> Yea, and the sticks can be used to prod the drowsy.


That is the most appealing thing about the stick baskets for me as a Deacon! I wonder if they make one with a small taser on the end.... something reasonable like 12volts.

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## earl40 (Feb 21, 2019)

True story I have relayed in the past.....My mom saw a person put in a 20 in the collection plate, and take out a 10.

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## timfost (Feb 21, 2019)

My denomination doesn't have an issue with collection during the worship service (see http://www.rcus.org/worship-parts/).

My local church has a collection box in the back that is filled prior to worship. During the service, the box is brought to the front and acknowledged with a scripture reading concerning giving and a prayer.

The primary reason for doing this was so that the giving of individuals is not directly or indirectly under the spotlight, but rather the corporate giving is highlighted.

The merits of an offering during worship can be debated, which I'm not going to do here. However, consider some of the benefits of our practice:

1. No "pressure" is put on individuals since it is not a public collection.

2. Whether an element or not, it is acknowledged in worship with scripture and prayer.

3. Since it was collected prior to the service, no emphasis is placed on the individual giving or not giving in the service. With this emphasis on the corporate, giving is part of the weekly service whether or not a congregant brings their individual offering weekly, biweekly or monthly.

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## Smeagol (Feb 21, 2019)

timfost said:


> My denomination doesn't have an issue with collection during the worship service (see http://www.rcus.org/worship-parts/).
> 
> My local church has a collection box in the back that is filled prior to worship. During the service, the box is brought to the front and acknowledged with a scripture reading concerning giving and a prayer.
> 
> ...


Tim,

This seems like a great practice. Further it seems like it highlights the benefits of both sides of the “element” vs. “circumstance” discussion. Thank you for sharing.

I think we would all agree that our giving is a form of worship (generally speaking), the squabble being over it being a private or formal public matter.

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