# Giving in Worship (Church History)



## Romans922 (Dec 9, 2008)

I am still researching this and I know most here are against giving in worship (box in the back). But I found some examples of giving in the liturgy of some throughout history.

Justin Martyr's Liturgy (around 140AD) has an offering (collection for the poor)

Strasburg (1540) has a Collection after the Sermon

Geneva (1542) has Collection after the Sermon

Knox's Scottish Rite: has Collection after the Sermon and an Offertory before the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper

Directory of Publick Worship (1644) Collection prior to Blessing.


These are not a box in the back, giving online, etc. How are we to think about these liturgies, espeically even Justin Martyr's so early on? Obviously 1 Cor. 16 is a passage most would go to. Doesn't prove or give a clear command, but something to think about at least.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 9, 2008)

Andrew, are there online copies of the sources you provide? I'm looking at the same thing and am coming up blank. I've not had the time to do much research.


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## Romans922 (Dec 9, 2008)

I was looking at Terry Johnson's "The Worship of God" and Pipa's essay in it.


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## Scott1 (Dec 9, 2008)

> Giving in Worship (Church History)
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am still researching this and I know most here are against giving in worship (box in the back). But I found some examples of giving in the liturgy of some throughout history.



Really?

Are we saying passing the plate during the service or merely having an offertory box at the back of the church?

Can't "passing the plate" be considered part of worship (equitable principle from tithing)?


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## LawrenceU (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks, Andrew.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Dec 9, 2008)

Westminster Directory of Public Worship:



> The collection for the poor is so to be ordered, that no part of the publick worship be thereby hindered.
> ...
> At one or both of the publick meetings that day [days of public thanksgiving], a collection is to be made for the poor, (and in the like manner upon the day of publick humiliation,) that their loins may bless us, and rejoice the more with us.



Rowland Ward says, in Richard A. Muller & Rowland S. Ward, _Scripture and Worship: Biblical Interpretation and The Directory For Worship_, p. 114: 



> *Offering*
> 
> The customary giving for the relief of the poor at the close of communion is mentioned in the Directory, as also on days of public thanksgiving and public humiliation; but in neither the directory nor the confession is an offering otherwise referred to. This reflects the practice of that age in maintaining the church ministry, services, and buildings from the public purse. In some British settings, as well as in America, the offering of the people not only for the poor but for general church purposes early assumed a larger role in the absence of endowment by the state.[6] The directory urges that the collection for the poor not hinder the worship. An act of the Church of Scotland Assembly in 1648 actually forbade the collection during the service as "a very great and unseemly disturbance of Divine Worship."[7] With large congregations and few fixed pews, one can understand this.
> 
> ...



Walter Steuart, _Collections and Observations Concerning the Worship, Discipline, and Government of the Church of Scotland_, p. 126:



> § 1. By the act of Affembly 11th Auguft 1648, collections for the poor, in time of divine fervice, (which is practifed in fome churches abroad) are difcharged, as being a very great and unfeemly difturbance thereof. And kirk-feffions are ordained to appoint fome other way for receiving thefe collections. The method now ordinarily taken is this: the elders or deacons do collect at the church-door from the people as they enter in, or elfe from them when within the church, immediately before pronouncing the bleffing, and after divine fervice is ended.



It was in 1886 that the (Northern) Presbyterian Church formally amended the Directory of Worship to designate offerings as an element of public worship.


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## Romans922 (Dec 12, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> > Giving in Worship (Church History)
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> ...



Churches which pass the plate most often consider their tithe/offering a part of their worship service. Many people on the PB do not agree that giving is to be part of public worship, but that all ought to give to the church (so they have a box in the back). It is an act of worship, but not during public worship.

So passing the plate, can be a part of worship, if you can prove it to be consistent with RPW. Passing the plate is not a part of public worship if it is contrary to RPW.


What I am asking is for all to look at some of these liturgies of history and think about if giving is to be part of public worship (not based on the fact of history but based on people's interpretation of Scripture in history).

-----Added 12/12/2008 at 11:10:16 EST-----



VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Westminster Directory of Public Worship:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If the offering for poor not hinder worship, then why did they have it in their worship? If they wanted to be consistent they would not have it in their worship whatsoever. Couldn't you say the same thing about any of the 'elements' of worship as well? That they shouldn't hinder worship (i.e. be done in such a way as to hinder the worship of God)?


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## Pergamum (Dec 12, 2008)

In 1886 was the Northern Presbyterian church right or wrong to amend this portion?


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## Romans922 (Dec 12, 2008)

Are you asking me? I have no clue (I personally don't think you should amend historical documents). If you want to change something, make something new and adapt from the old. 

I probably wouldn't agree with much the Northern Presbyterian Church did (especially if it is in 1886)


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