# New Children's Catechism



## Romans922 (Jul 6, 2011)

I saw on a blog where the children's catechism has new updated language, and that person stated that the question for "What is a covenant?" answer changed from, "An agreement between two or more persons." to what smacks of FV theology, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word."

Can anyone confirm this?


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## Romans922 (Jul 6, 2011)

That's what I was thinking Josh!


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 6, 2011)

I actually thought the new answer was explicitly monergistic.

Look, one sentence answers are not systematic doctrine. This catechism was revised long before the FV was even on the stage--it can't be "FV-accommodating" in that sense.

You can take any answer (just about) and read into it aberrant theology. The only way to judge the CC (or really any catechism) is taking it at a whole. What theology is taught when all the answers are considered?


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## Matthew Tringali (Jul 6, 2011)

That has been the answer in the children's catechism that I have and my church has used for many, many years. So, not new to me. Also, please be careful with "smacks of FV" to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. NPP, FV, R2K, Roman Catholicism, etc, etc, etc... all have elements of truth, some more than others. All offer helpful refinements to certain aspects or extreme ends of our own theological systems. Remember that God offers common grace even to outright pagans even when it relates to Biblical truths, at least from time to time. 

And the bottom line is that the Bible clearly does not use technical words to mean precisely the same thing at all times. God delivered his word to us in a narrative, not a theological encyclopedia. I think we would all do well to not hold so tightly to our catechism answers and to become a little more comfortable with a little more "fuzziness" around our theological terms and definitions. 

Are we really _that_ uncomfortable with emphasizing the relationship aspect of God's covenants that clearly exist? Just because the covenant is legal / forensic does not diminish its personal relationship aspect.

ETA: the catechism we use is the same one Joshua linked.


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 6, 2011)

We have both the old version (with cartoons!) and the new version from Great Commission (publishing arm of the OPC and PCA).

My 3 year old found switching from one version to the other confusing. Once he had the answer set in his mind, telling him that this version words it differently doesn't compute. From a theological viewpoint, though, I haven't seen anything amongst the changes that would cause alarm.


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## Jack K (Jul 6, 2011)

The old "agreement between two or more persons" answer failed to communicate, in a single sentence, what kids most need to know about biblical covenants. From a teaching perspective (and that's what the catechism is for), the new one is a more helpful starting point to understanding biblical covenants.


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## Romans922 (Jul 6, 2011)

Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level. 

A covenant 1) is not always made between God and man; 2) God makes a covenant between day and night (Jer. 33), there is no relationship established between day and night; but rather a commitment; 3) the covenant God made with Adam or others never established a relationship, a relationship clearly already was established in those cases prior to the covenant being made. It is because of the relationship that existed that God made the covenant with Adam, etc.

The old Q/A of the children's catechism is true, though it needs to be expanded: "An agreement between two or more persons." 


The comment concerning the definition and FV perhaps is better stated that the definition today could easily remind someone of the FV definition of covenant, which is that a covenant is a relationship.


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## Matthew Tringali (Jul 6, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level.



Really? For me at the most "minimal basic level" God's covenant is "I will be your God and you will be my people." With that in mind, I actually think the catechism answer here works beautifully. Does it capture everything? Of course not. But, if I am asking my four year old to memorize an answer about God's covenant, I like this one a lot... a lot more than the previous one, too.


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## Wayne (Jul 6, 2011)

In eleven of its questions/answers, this older children's catechism was full of discussion of covenants:

Short and Easy Questions for Children, at First Beginning (1825) | What's New & What's Old at The PCA Historical Center?



> Q. How fell he from it?
> A. By breaking covenant with God.
> 
> Q. How many covenants are there?
> ...


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't see how that smacks of FV. Could you explain? Looks perfectly fine to me. I have not really studied FV at all so I might be missing something.


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## Tripel (Jul 6, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level.
> 
> A covenant 1) is not always made between God and man; 2) *God makes a covenant between day and night* (Jer. 33), there is no relationship established between day and night; but rather a commitment; ...



So I imagine you were equally bothered by the old definition of a covenant, since the day and night are not "persons".


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## Romans922 (Jul 6, 2011)

Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level.
> ...



No, the intention of the Confession and catechisms, which this should be in line with is to teach the covenants between God and man. My point in stating my #1 reason was just one point against the new answer, I don't agree either with the older definition, but in the context it is fine. You can throw out my #1 reason why it is wrong.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 6, 2011)

Tripel said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level.
> ...



Indeed, and Job makes a covenant with his eyes (Job 31:1).

The catechism is addressing the question ("what is a covenant") from the context of a theological catechism, not a dictionary. As a result, the context legitimizes using a definition that is limited in scope to the theological sense of the word. Thus I think the answer is acceptable at a basic level.


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## Romans922 (Jul 6, 2011)

Matthew Tringali said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Whether FV or not, "A relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by his word." is not the meaning of a covenant even at a very minimal basic level.
> ...



The promise (I will be your God...) is made to God's people who are already in relationship with God. Also, this promise doesn't refer to the Covenant of Works/Life, but to the Covenant of Grace (I will be your God...). The problem with the new answer is that it says a covenant is a relationship, when it is not. A covenant between God and man (in the context of the Confession and Catechisms) is an agreement, and can't be disputed.


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## Jack K (Jul 6, 2011)

For what it's worth... although I like the new answer because it includes both God and his guarantee, I too prefer the word "agreement," not "relationship," when I teach kids about covenants. In that regard I think Andrew makes a good point.


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## sastark (Jul 6, 2011)

Here is another children's Catechism done by a Reformed pastor ($5 for a print copy through lulu or you can download the PDF for free): https://www.lulu.com/commerce/index.php?fBuyContent=10735830

From the above linked "A New Catechism for Young Christians": 

*Q 22: What is a covenant?*
A. An agreement of promise between two or more persons.
Genesis 2:15-17


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