# Pastor exposes Coptic Orthodox church as unbiblical



## MichaelNZ (Apr 20, 2015)

This morning I came across a video of Pastor Brandon Davison of Grace Church Austin, TX, talking about the 21 Coptic Orthodox who were beheaded by ISIS. He then goes on and compares the Coptic church to Scripture and shows that it doesn't measure up.

Apologetica Christiana - Christian Apologetics: Pastor exposes Coptic church as unbiblical


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## Phil D. (Apr 20, 2015)

I think this response to a similar post by you largely applies to this one as well.


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## aadebayo (Apr 20, 2015)

I do not think that this should be a surprise to any reformed Christian. I recently watched a documentary on BBC and it took little time for me to determine that this is not genuine biblical Christianity


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## Alan D. Strange (Apr 20, 2015)

Quite right, Phil. Whether or not some particular branch of the Christian Church is sound or not is quite beside the point. They (Copts, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, et al.) are those that "name the name of Christ" (whether or not they depart from iniquity in doctrine and life is another matter) and they are being persecuted for that reason. Neither the terrorists nor the media distinguishes the true from the false with respect to this and neither are, in fact, competent to do so. 

When persons are martyred or otherwise persecuted because they bear the name of Christ, their tormenters can rightly be said to be engaging in persecution of Christians. That Copts are deficient in their understanding of the Christian faith (even as all monophysites are) is irrelevant for purposes of noting that they are being persecuted for the name of Christ. We should pray for them and their persecutors. 

Peace,
Alan


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## fredtgreco (Apr 20, 2015)

I am not sure what the purpose of such an inquiry would be. Is it to say that it is not worth worrying about, because of the Copts' view of Scripture? More energy should be spent on the bloodthirsty, barbaric nature of Islam than on that.


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## ZackF (Apr 20, 2015)

MichaelNZ said:


> This morning I came across a video of Pastor Brandon Davison of Grace Church Austin, TX, talking about the 21 Coptic Orthodox who were beheaded by ISIS. He then goes on and compares the Coptic church to Scripture and shows that it doesn't measure up.
> 
> Apologetica Christiana - Christian Apologetics: Pastor exposes Coptic church as unbiblical



PB hold beliefs that other PBers find unbiblical. Are you surprised that any of us would find such beliefs in the Coptic Churches? I am curious as to why you linked us to this?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 20, 2015)

Does the article/video at least mention monophysitism? If it doesn't mention that, then why bother? That's the elephant in the room.


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## MichaelNZ (Apr 20, 2015)

I am not trying to take away the gravity of the situation. Coptic Orthodox are being persecuted, and that is very sad. The pastor even offered condolences at the beginning of the video. Yes, we should definitely pray for them, but our prayers should also include the petition that they leave their false "church" and embrace the true Gospel of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone to God's glory alone and abandon their idolatry. They may name the name of Christ, but they could be among those whom Jesus mentioned in Matthew 7 that will say 'Lord, Lord' to him, to which He will reply "I never knew you". As Pastor Davison mentions in the video, there are probably some genuine Christians among the Coptic Orthodox, but like the same situation with the Romish church, they are saved _in spite_ of their false church and not because of it.

For those of you who are against saying they aren't Christians, think of it this way: If your son or daughter fell in love with a Coptic Orthodox person, would you give them your blessing to marry if the Coptic party wouldn't convert to Reformed Christianity? Would the session of your church permit the pastor to marry them? I know our church would not marry any of our members to a Coptic Orthodox person.



> PB hold beliefs that other PBers find unbiblical. Are you surprised that any of us would find such beliefs in the Coptic Churches? I am curious as to why you linked us to this?



Yes, that is true, but the beliefs that PBers would find unbiblical are generally in the area of adiaphora. Coptic Orthodox violate the First and Second Commandments by their idolatry (praying to Mary, saints, etc and having images of them). I linked to this video as it shows that there are others out there and it's not just me who points out that many of those whom the media say are Christians are not believers at all but members of false churches like that of Rome and the Eastern "Orthodox". I am pretty sure that apologist and ex-PCA pastor Matt Slick would also say that Coptic Orthodoxy is not Christian.



> Does the article/video at least mention monophysitism? If it doesn't mention that, then why bother? That's the elephant in the room.



He does mention it, although he doesn't state that they do believe that Christ is fully man and fully God but only has one nature. It is a big deviation from Biblical Christianity, but I think that their idolatry in praying to Mary and the saints is worse since it violates the First and Second Commandments.

Also, as I mentioned in the blog post, I am not ignorant of what Coptic Orthodox teach. I have been to Coptic Orthodox services several times and have read several books by their late Pope Shenouda III. I even met the Coptic bishop when he visited my city once (this was all before I started attending my current Reformed church).

I don't mean to belittle the plight that Coptic Orthodox are facing at the moment. What they are going through is horrible and I would hate to go through it myself. I'm just saying that we should apply the same standard to the word 'Christian' when watching the news as we should when finding someone to marry, and give the name of Christian to those whom our churches would forbid us to marry.


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## yeutter (Apr 21, 2015)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Quite right, Phil. Whether or not some particular branch of the Christian Church is sound or not is quite beside the point. They (Copts, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, et al.) are those that "name the name of Christ" (whether or not they depart from iniquity in doctrine and life is another matter) and they are being persecuted for that reason. Neither the terrorists nor the media distinguishes the true from the false with respect to this and neither are, in fact, competent to do so. .....


I would distinguish those Churches that stand in the tradition of Chalcedon, from those Churches hat depart from the faith on core issues of the incarnation. I know of both Lutherans and Anglicans that have set up ministries to Ethiopians and Egyptian Copts who are in the States. They were shocked at how far they have diverged from orthodoxy.


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## Phil D. (Apr 21, 2015)

There is certainly a time and place for pointing out a church's theological errors. However, doing so within the context of extreme persecution does not seem appropriate.

Ecclesiastes 3 says, "To everything there is a season." Please consider that in applying that truth to what is forbidden under the 9th Commandment, the WLC includes "speaking the truth unseasonably."


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## Pilgrim (Apr 21, 2015)

They were Christian enough for ISIS.


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## MichaelNZ (Apr 21, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> They were Christian enough for ISIS.



Really? So our definition of who is a Christian is now determined by a group of Muslims who have probably never even read the Bible?


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 21, 2015)

What we're observing in this thread is an _ambiguity of association_.

On the one hand, we have people who outwardly call upon the name of Jesus, and are called by Jesus' name. This is an association. With whatever qualifiers you wish to admit, it is based upon the revelation of God in the NT.

On the other hand, we have a specified and official theology drawn at least partially from Christian Scripture. This is another association. But the level of connection uneducated people have to the official theology of their church--true even in our own theological circles--is often tenuous.

Obviously, the theology of a church will determine which Jesus they present to their congregants. Or put differently, the teaching in every church will determine the clarity with which the true Jesus-of-Scripture is manifested to the congregants.

We have a choice to make here, with regard to these Christians who are being murdered for their testimony to Jesus. Are we going to acknowledge the association they have with the name (for which they seem willing to die) and the profession of their hope that comes from the NT? Or are we going to emphasize the association these dying people have with officially skewed theological positions they may never have pondered?

I'm not even slightly suggesting that careful theology is unimportant. Nor am I suggesting that anyone who is trusting essentially in his association to a particular church (even a Reformed one), or even in association to a theology (including Reformed) rather than to the One witnessed by the truth, is not in vain _giving his body to be burnt,_ 1Cor.13:3. Some of these dying Christians could be dying for a lie, this is true.

The reality is that Jesus knows his own. He knows his, even when they are basically trapped in a religious institution filled with confusion and distraction. How do we know, but that in preparing to die, 99% of that confusion and distraction is stripped away from many of them? The choice they are being offered is perfectly stark: Jesus or Mohammed? Couldn't this (to us terrible and tragic) event be the means of opening one martyr's eyes to the core connection he needs for eternal life? Definitely, I say.

For us, sitting in our comfortable western dens in no danger of death, to fail to pray for such clarity to be granted to these people being killed--but instead to maintain a public skepticism about the quality of their individual faith, because of our disapproval of their narrow (as opposed to broad) association--this seems to me a fundamental failure. Will we privilege in our hearts those who die for Jesus' name, of whom we know nothing but their association with a Protestant-linked church?

Reactions: Love 1


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