# Your Opinions On Exorcisms?



## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 20, 2018)

So this topic just popped into my mind. I think probably because we have a new resident at my job who is a retired priest (a really nice guy btw). I guess there really isn't any way to prove these things, but when someone like this gives a credible confession, should we believe it?


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## Pergamum (Nov 21, 2018)

My opinion:

If you need one, get one.

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## Pergamum (Nov 21, 2018)

A story:

An old man I counseled kept saying his family demon was telling him to kill himself. He was depressed and suicidal and seemed psychotic. The man wore his family's amulet, which he claimed to contain his family spirit. We counseled him to pray and we read the bible to him. Since he said the amulet contained the spirit we told him to take it off and throw it away. 

When he did so, the voices stopped and he prayed to the Lord. 

So...my question is....what exactly IS an exorcism? And when does a person need it?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 21, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So this topic just popped into my mind. I think probably because we have a new resident at my job who is a retired priest (a really nice guy btw). I guess there really isn't any way to prove these things, but when someone like this gives a credible confession, should we believe it?



I think the plain reading of Scripture, plus the universal testimony of human experience, and the ancient liturgies of the church (which one can even find in Lutheran liturgies today) testify that exorcism is a reality.

Of course, whether every case is demonic needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

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## Taylor (Nov 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Of course, whether every case is demonic needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.



What is the alternative? A simple psycho-somatic disorder? On that note, I have often wondered whether some of the things we call disorders are actually demonic activity. Schizophrenia, for example?


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## earl40 (Nov 21, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I guess there really isn't any way to prove these things, but when someone like this gives a credible confession, should we believe it?



No personally would give no credence to such. I have to say this reminds me of the Stevie Wonder song Superstition.

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...ccult-demonic-experiences.91634/#post-1121031


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## Tom Hart (Nov 21, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> What is the alternative? A simple psycho-somatic disorder? On that note, I have often wondered whether some of the things we call disorders are actually demonic activity. Schizophrenia, for example?



My cousin suffers from schizophrenia. It's pretty messed up, but I wouldn't call it demonic.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 21, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> What is the alternative? A simple psycho-somatic disorder?



Maybe. Could be drug use (which the ancient church often associated with sorcery), or a history of psychoses, or whatever. My point is that those of us who take the spirit-world seriously realize that not every issue is a demonic one (though given the current re-paganization of America, this will be more likely the case).

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## RamistThomist (Nov 21, 2018)

Steve Hays has done more serious work on this than any other lay thinker. 

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search/label/Exorcism

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## Filter (Nov 22, 2018)

While I believe it prudent to evaluate the credibility of the testimony given concerning exorcism, I do have a personal testimony myself of such an event taking place on the night my own conversion at the age of 20. I would typically prefer to use the term _deliverance_ over exorcism, although it seems the distinctions some put between those two terms may confuse people when it comes to what actually happened.

I tend to have an overwhelmingly rational mind which seeks to make sense of everything that happens in my life, and this certainly is one of those which confounds me. From what I can best tell, a demon manifested itself within me, and a process (which took no longer than one hour, mostly due to my terror/confusion/insubordination) of declaring God's power and authority rid it of me. Growing up in a nominal Lutheran upbringing which never ready made a point to emphasis the existence of angels and demons, I was extremely skeptical when others that night suggested that a demon was manifesting himself in me. Indeed, very strange things happened that night and I have no other hypothesis about what took place.

Although only 5 years ago, already time has faded away some of the details, and at times for a short while I wonder if it even really happened. But absolutely it did. The memory of what I sensed while the demon was manifest has dwindled, but the feeling of the power of the Holy Spirit entering into my life is as tangible now as it was when it happened. From confusion and terror over what was happening to sheer joy and peace once the Holy Spirit came upon me is a testimony of God's goodness, and the _immediate_ change in my priorities, ambitions, and convictions are are a witness to what took place that night.

Something inside my mind still wants to rationalize it - to reduce the experience to a series of causes and observable and rational phenomenon, but I am at a loss. I don't understand what all took place that night, and I probably never will. To be honest I don't know how it all exactly fits into my theology and observance of the Biblical text, but one thing I realized that night for certain: God is real. And He is good.

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## Polanus1561 (Nov 22, 2018)

Piper did one or two If I recall correctly.

Anyway, does seminary training cover this?


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## Von (Nov 22, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> On that note, I have often wondered whether some of the things we call disorders are actually demonic activity. Schizophrenia, for example?


I was once tasked with assessing the forensic psychiatric patients in a relatively rural part of South Africa.
One of the patients was there because of a murder for which the plea of psychiatric illness was entered. I saw him on a weekly basis and in general he was a very amicable and intelligent individual. 
At one of these follow-ups (whilst waiting for the patient), a strange man entered the room. I was confused and asked where our regular patient was. The head psychiatrist informed me that the strange man _*was*_ our regular patient and the "fact that he looked different was a clear indication that he had relapsed".
I did not recognize the patient at all. And he did not show any signs of recognition towards me.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 22, 2018)

John Yap said:


> Piper did one or two If I recall correctly.
> 
> Anyway, does seminary training cover this?



Almost never. While I don't know much about charismatic seminaries, I would be surprised if even they covered this material in any depth. Vern Poythress has some outstanding material on it, but I doubt that translates into a deliverance course at WTS.

Talbot touches on it. JP Moreland exorcised demons from two of his students.


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## Pergamum (Nov 23, 2018)

I believe most Western Christians are functional deists who believe God and the supernatural realm are not operative in the world today.

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## earl40 (Nov 23, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> I believe most Western Christians are functional deists who believe God and the supernatural realm are not operative in the world today.


Maybe so, but I believe many, if not most Christians, do not see satan behind every sin today.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Maybe so, but I believe many, if not most Christians, do not see satan behind every sin today.



That's a huge step forward for you on this discussion. Your previous position used to be something like "it's impossible." 

I actually don't see Satan behind every sin because he is not omnipresent.


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## Von (Nov 23, 2018)

Yup. I agree - saying that Satan is behind every sin, leaves no room for the deceitful enemy within. But I think we are derailing....


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 23, 2018)

*Moderator Note*:

The OP is a topic of much debate and disagreement. Let's avoid posts that propose methods of performing exorcisms. For not a few, it is nearly akin to making posts that would teach another how to be a Federal Visionist, New Covenant Theologian (NCT), etc.

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## jw (Nov 23, 2018)

Modern malarkey.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2018)

Joshua said:


> Modern malarkey.



All exorcisms? Or just some? Are WTS profs like Poythress (and one other WTS guy Poythress mentioned, but whose name escapes me) and Biola profs like Moreland malarkey?


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## jw (Nov 23, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> All exorcisms? Or just some? Are WTS profs like Poythress (and one other WTS guy Poythress mentioned, but whose name escapes me) and Biola profs like Moreland malarkey?


I do not think those men are malarkey.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2018)

Joshua said:


> I do not think those men are malarkey.



So they might be correct on the exorcisms they performed, and hence, not all exorcisms today are malarkey?


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## Charles Johnson (Nov 23, 2018)

Demon possessions are of course real, but we shouldn't be performing exorcisms any more than we should be performing Benny Hinn-style healing conferences. Christ was quite clear that the ability to cast out demons was a miraculous ability he was giving to his disciples together with the gift of miraculous healing. Moreover, their gift still did not enable them to cast out all demons, since some come out only by prayer. So if we encounter one who is demon-possessed, prayer, and not an exorcism, is undoubtedly the prudent option, just as it would be for a physical ailment.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2018)

Charles Johnson said:


> So if we encounter one who is demon-possessed, prayer, and not an exorcism, is undoubtedly the prudent option, just as it would be for a physical ailment.



I mostly agree with what you are saying, and I would want to follow up on it, but I fear that it would come across as an exorcism manual, which of course I do not intend it to be.

Our culture's problem is that most people, Christians included, think exorcism means Exorcism of Emily Rose, including the elaborate Roman Catholic rituals (all foreign to the New Testament).

Definitely begin with prayer. Then, if necessary, the Name of Jesus.


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## jw (Nov 23, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So they might be correct on the exorcisms they performed, and hence, not all exorcisms today are malarkey?


I don't believe such. There are plenty of smart/wise/prudent/godly people who can still hold to nonsensical positions. I was asked for my opinion, I gave it. I have not read the men you reference, which is why I'm not saying they, particularly, are full of malarkeyarity. However, the things that pass as evidence of "demon possession," and subsequent "exorcisms" that I _have _read testimony of, I find to be nonsense (not in the denotation of the word, since _sense_ can be very misleading in our fallenness). Others, certainly, are able to hold to a differing position than that of mine, and call me a rationalist, functional deist, _etc_. That's okay. (I am not saying that _you_, dear Jacob, did such)

My primary objection to what many folks today call _demon possession_, or _exorcism_, or __________ is that I lack the biblical revelation which tells me how to identify such. I see extraordinary circumstances of devil possession recorded in Scripture, and the Lord -as well as apostles, _etc.- _being able to identify and subsequently deal with those possessed of devils, but I see no doctrine/regulation of how the Church, generally, is to identify devil possession and subsequently deal with it, other than the general direction of the preaching of the gospel and the manner in which we are to deal with those with whom we are in contact daily. Other men's anecdotal experiences -or for that matter, my own sensual experience- with alleged/perceived supernatural phenomena cannot be the rule of me assenting something to be _the_ truth.

We all have our framework by which we interpret the world, or understand even certain things in the Scriptures. With regard to devil possession, I am more along the lines of those being extraordinary things going on pointing to the coming of Messiah in the flesh, and demonstrating His rule over all creation. _Malarkey_, I confess, was not the best choice in response to the question on my opinion about "exorcisms." In retrospect, perhaps even counter productive to the point. With you, I "take the spirit-world seriously," yet _differently_.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2018)

Joshua said:


> However, the things that pass as evidence of "demon possession," and subsequent "exorcisms" that I _have _read testimony of, I find to be nonsense (not in the denotation of the word, since _sense_ can be very misleading in our fallenness). Others, certainly, are able to hold to a differing position than that of mine, and call me a rationalist, functional deist, _etc_. That's okay. (I am not saying that _you_, dear Jacob, did such)



It is a logical leap to move from some cases are fraudulent to all modern cases are. Perhaps they are, but that's not a logical argument.



Joshua said:


> My primary objection to what many folks today call _demon possession_, or _exorcism_, or __________ is that I lack the biblical revelation which tells me how to identify such. I see extraordinary circumstances of devil possession recorded in Scripture, and the Lord -as well as apostles, _etc.- _being able to identify and subsequently deal with those possessed of devils, but I see no doctrine/regulation of how the Church, generally, is to identify devil possession and subsequently deal with it, other than the general direction of the preaching of the gospel and the manner in which we are to deal with those with whom we are in contact daily.



The apostles' actions don't count as such? I mean, one of the most obvious reasons that Rome is wrong on this point is that the apostles' actions are so different. But if we can't get guidance from the apostles' practices, then it's only our opinion that Rome is wrong on this point.


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## earl40 (Nov 24, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That's a huge step forward for you on this discussion. Your previous position used to be something like "it's impossible."
> 
> I actually don't see Satan behind every sin because he is not omnipresent.



No step at all. I simply disagree with many in how satan actually works. All the effects of the fall can be attributed to satan. The idea he (satan) jumps into a person and pulls the strings against their wills is superstition.


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## NEO-CHRISTIAN (Nov 24, 2018)

My apologies for my previously deleted post - my intention was never to offend. Obviously in Mark 5:9 Jesus cast out a multitude, or legion, of demonic spirits. My opinion is that anyone affected should seek spiritual guidance from their minister as well as medical or psychiatric assistance. We are only aware of a thin sliver of reality in time and space - our present moment. It is possible that people may be oppressed from spiritual influences and I agree with other posts that prayer and reading the Bible are very useful.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

earl40 said:


> No step at all. I simply disagree with many in how satan actually works. All the effects of the fall can be attributed to satan. The idea he (satan) jumps into a person and pulls the strings against their wills is superstition.



Which is a position I've never said. In fact, most of the guys in deliverance ministry that I read openly reject that caricature.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 24, 2018)

This issue will likely become a more common topic of discussion in coming years. 

Here's an article from the Atlantic (a liberal publication) discussing the issue of possession. It deals mostly with Catholic cases, but the incidents are rising. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/catholic-exorcisms-on-the-rise/573943/

A helpful quote in the article from a historian is this: 
"But more described how, during periods when the influence of organized religions ebbs, people seek spiritual fulfillment through the occult. “As people’s participation in orthodox Christianity declines,” said Carlos Eire, a historian at Yale specializing in the early modern period, “there’s always been a surge in interest in the occult and the demonic.” He said that today we’re seeing a “hunger for contact with the supernatural.”" 

Also, they note a strong correlation between a history of sexual abuse and the reported possession cases they dealt with. 

The article author is merely observing the phenomena, not indicating whether it's true or not. But he does acknowledge that some of the events simply can't be explained by mental health disorders. 

Whether you believe they are just malarkey or not, as Reformed believers, we are going to have to prepare a Reformed pastoral response to people suffering under such afflictions, especially if the incidents are rising in the West.

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## jw (Nov 24, 2018)

I want to be more clear, because apparently I have failed in that area:

I am _not_ saying that people are not having experiences which they have interpreted as devil possession, _etc_. I am _not_ saying that the Church shouldn't have a readiness and willingness to deal with these afflictions. I _am _saying that I do not believe _exorcisms_ are the answer. The _malarkey _comment was in regard to "exorcisms," or repeating formulaic phrases thinking it will expel devils from people, _etc_.

Those with authority given to them in the Scriptures were able both to identify and heal (with the exception of the example of the one that could only come out by prayer & fasting, outside of Christ Himself giving the deliverance directly) those afflicted by devils. But the scriptures nowhere regulate that and tell us how so to do. It assumes that one is able to identify a person with devil possession, in order to deliver such an one from said devil. There are no instructions for such identification. What we _do_ have instructions for are prayer, praise, preaching of the Gospel, helping those in time of need, _etc. 
_
I heartily affirm the "spirit-world," and that the devil -who is God's devil- walks about, like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. I agree with the Puritan minister Thomas Brooks that satan has devices by which he fans into flame those corruptions which still abide in us, and -therefore- we ought to be vigilant, knowledgeable of his devices, and takes James' advice in our dealing with him:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 *Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. *8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.​
We have clear instruction on the means by which God calls, delivers, justifies, and sanctifies (or passes by, neglects, hardens, and damns) souls, and I do not believe any inexplicable experience -regardless of its intensity or bafflingness- is beyond the ability of these means (by God's Spirit and blessing) to handle. What I fail to see in the Scriptures are:

1. A clear indication that devil possession is ordinary and regular throughout redemptive history
2. An authority to cast out devils given to the people of God generally
3. A set of instructions on how to identify devil possession, and -subsequently- how to cast out said devils

In conclusion, I do not deny the supernatural. I do not deny the spirit-world. I do not deny inexplicable experiences occurring to people. I do not deny the harsh afflictions that these things are to these people, and I pity them and would see them delivered from such burdens by salvation through faith alone in Christ. But I deny that sense (sight, hearing, touch) is the ultimate indicator of truth and, rather, that we are to walk by faith, which may sometimes mean denying our perception of a thing, and dealing with it by way of God's prescribed means, trusting Him with the results. It is also true that God may give a people over to their own delusions, such that they would believe a lie (for example, that Satan and God are in a cosmic battle against one another, rather than God limits and orders the devil and his devils to His own purposes and glory).

I consent, also, that many people do not share the same axiom I do with regard to devil possession, _etc_. Ergo, I do not necessarily expect anyone to be convinced by my paltry attempts to explain the position.

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## Pergamum (Nov 24, 2018)

If demons are real and still bother people, why not discuss how to combat them? This should include discussing steps and actions.

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## Afterthought (Nov 24, 2018)

Some old threads giving more voice to the sort of the position that Josh gives:
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/reformed-views-of-exorcisms.69951/

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/ghosts-spirits-demons.84279/

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/how-do-you-know-if-you-are-being-spiritually-attacked.37281/

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/ufos-ghosts-and-the-occult-demonic-experiences.91634/

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/mental-illness-vs-demonization.81357/

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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 24, 2018)

Joshua said:


> I want to be more clear, because apparently I have failed in that area:
> 
> I am _not_ saying that people are not having experiences which they have interpreted as devil possession, _etc_. I am _not_ saying that the Church shouldn't have a readiness and willingness to deal with these afflictions. I _am _saying that I do not believe _exorcisms_ are the answer. The _malarkey _comment was in regard to "exorcisms," or repeating formulaic phrases thinking it will expel devils from people, _etc_.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of what you said Josh. I also agree that we do not have the same abilities as the apostles to perform exorcisms like they did. We have the ordinary means of grace, and in these cases those ordinary means would perhaps have to take a more intense form (i.e. more specific Scriptural application and prayer). The more I study the issue over the years, the more open I am to the idea that demon possession still occurs. For those who would argue that Christ finished that problem on the Cross, you still have to deal with the specific incidents that occurred after the Cross in the book of Acts. No one denies that Satan received his death blow when Christ died, but his activity is still rampant after the Cross as the many warnings of the NT explain.

The benefits of Christ's death come only to people through union with Christ. Those not yet united to Christ still lie under the rule and tyranny of Satan. And for people dabbling in occultic practices, it's not a matter of demonic forces imposing themselves against the person's will. By engaging in such practices you can freely (sometimes specifically) invite those forces in, perhaps in the pursuit of power or insight, and I think much to the later regret of the person who opened themselves that way.

With all that said, I also think we need to keep these things in perspective too. Though these pursuits of divination and such are real, the primary assault of the devil comes through ordinary temptation every day, and we can't let the extraordinary incidents become a diversion from the main assault. But we do need to have a solid foundation from which to minister to those under such afflictions, and you can't work that out without at least talking about it, so you are somewhat ready when you meet that needy person.

My two cents...

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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> If demons are real and still bother people, why not discuss how to combat them? This should include discussing steps and actions.



You first have to undo certain worldview assumptions. We've given numerous evidence, biblical passages, logic, and it hasn't taken root. You first have to have a worldview that affirms divine agency in the world is still a real thing (and that is a huge discussion in modern analytic philosophy).


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

This is the best Reformed material on the topic.
https://frame-poythress.org/territorial-spirits-some-biblical-perspectives/
https://frame-poythress.org/audio/


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## earl40 (Nov 24, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Which is a position I've never said. In fact, most of the guys in deliverance ministry that I read openly reject that caricature.



Most if not all in the deliverance ministry are in some way connected to Linda Blair to one degree or another...No Ifs, Ands, or Butts.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 24, 2018)

I have been enjoying this discussion. So, if the spiritual forces are real that we are against in this world, as Perg said, shouldn't there be more general training in the seminaries regarding this area?


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## Pergamum (Nov 24, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I have been enjoying this discussion. So, if the spiritual forces are real that we are against in this world, as Perg said, shouldn't there be more general training in the seminaries regarding this area?



GASP! Because that would seem Charismatic!


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## Afterthought (Nov 24, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So, if the spiritual forces are real that we are against in this world, as Perg said, shouldn't there be more general training in the seminaries regarding this area?


The other side does not deny that the spiritual forces are real. Neither does the other side necessarily deny they are not operative. It is only denied they are operative in anything other than a moral sense (and therefore to be resisted in a moral manner, Eph. 6, James has been quoted) with no power beyond that of deceit and delusion (and therefore belief of the truth will set free) due to an eschatology that views the real (real as opposed to their illusory power brought about by deceit and delusion) power of the devil and his angels to now be bound by Christ's Lordship.

In that regard, a great Reformed "exorcism" manual or one part of training in resisting the devil would be Thomas Brooks' work already mentioned. Another part of that training would also be in eschatology or Christ's Lordship.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 24, 2018)

Where does Scripture say that the binding of Satan means there is no longer any demonic possession?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Most if not all in the deliverance ministry are in some way connected to Linda Blair to one degree or another...No Ifs, Ands, or Butts.



And that is called the genetic fallacy.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Where does Scripture say that the binding of Satan means there is no longer any demonic possession?



Exactly. Why would Paul even bother to warn us that we war against thronoi, archae, and the like, if it doesn't happen? 

Unless Satan is bound with a bungee cord.


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## Afterthought (Nov 24, 2018)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Where does Scripture say that the binding of Satan means there is no longer any demonic possession?


This question can quickly become quite involved (just see the length of the threads I posted earlier!). Me not having a lot of time, I'll just say....

1) The other side does not say there is no longer "demonic" possession. The possession that exists is only a moral possession and is by means of the human faculties; the possession is in the form of temptation and deception. The person is still responsible for their actions for giving in to such temptation and deception.

2) The other side sees the phenomena of casting out of devils as unique to the NT period in the coming of Christ. The demonic activity we see in that period (and the follow up in Acts) is unique in the Scriptures. Given the references to "demons," it is possible some on the other side would not view the claimed physical possession as actually being real: instead, people were morally possessed and due to their false worldview, attributed the moral possession to an agent beyond their control.

3) One biblical reason for believing there is nothing more than a moral possession that is possible is that everyone is commanded to repent: they are responsible for their own actions. If there was more than a moral (or deceptive) possession, they would not be responsible for their own actions (this is true of those in the OT too, hence point 2 above). Christians are told to resist the devil in moral terms and in terms of believing the truth. The devil is said to work in the wickedness of others, but the wicked works of men are attributed to themselves.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> One biblical reason for believing there is nothing more than a moral possession that is possible is that everyone is commanded to repent: they are responsible for their own actions. If there was more than a moral (or deceptive) possession, they would not be responsible for their own actions (this is true of those in the OT too, hence point 2 above).



Strictly speaking, that same line of reasoning cuts against monergism. We can't repent of our own power, yet we are exhorted to.

Another part of the problem is we tend to think of possession as "This is Gozer who has assumed control," when the greek is daimonidzomai, which has a much wider range of meaning and avoids all of the problems you suggested.

As to seeing this dying out in the apostles' time, we don't see any NT evidence and we see numerous counter evidence throughout church history (even by those who are cessationists, like Poythress).


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## Afterthought (Nov 24, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Strictly speaking, that same line of reasoning cuts against monergism. We can't repent of our own power, yet we are exhorted to.


The bondage of the will is a moral bondage, so it does not cut against monergism. It is within the natural freedom of the will to perform the action of repentance. Also, the person is in bondage to themselves; their will is not coerced to evil by an external entity. It is because the bondage is moral and the bondage is to and of themselves that they are responsible when called to repentance or when they sin and cannot cease from sin.



BayouHuguenot said:


> Another part of the problem is we tend to think of possession as "This is Gozer who has assumed control," when the greek is daimonidzomai, which has a much wider range of meaning and avoids all of the problems you suggested.


Those "possessed" by these "demons" in the NT believed they were physically or mentally possessed or that these "demons" could exert a physical or mental influence beyond the moral. The classical meaning (and Jewish conceptions) of "demon" as an intermediary "god" as background to the NT description of the phenomena seems convincing to me.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> Those "possessed" by these "demons" in the NT believed they were physically or mentally possessed or that these "demons" could exert a physical or mental influence beyond the moral. The classical meaning (and Jewish conceptions) of "demon" as an intermediary "god" as background to the NT description of the phenomena seems convincing to me.



I am not sure how that rebuts anything I've said.


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## earl40 (Nov 24, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And that is called the genetic fallacy.



And your retort is genetically wrong.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2018)

earl40 said:


> And your retort is genetically wrong.



No it isn't. You tried to tar all deliverance ministries with Linda Blair. I have no clue who that is, but presumably she is bad. I then pointed out that such a move is a logical fallacy. My position is true or false based on logic, evidence, etc., not on Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/99/Genetic-Fallacy

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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 24, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> This question can quickly become quite involved (just see the length of the threads I posted earlier!). Me not having a lot of time, I'll just say....
> 
> 1) The other side does not say there is no longer "demonic" possession. The possession that exists is only a moral possession and is by means of the human faculties; the possession is in the form of temptation and deception. The person is still responsible for their actions for giving in to such temptation and deception.
> 2) The other side sees the phenomena of casting out of devils as unique to the NT period in the coming of Christ. The demonic activity we see in that period (and the follow up in Acts) is unique in the Scriptures. Given the references to "demons," it is possible some on the other side would not view the claimed physical possession as actually being real: instead, people were morally possessed and due to their false worldview, attributed the moral possession to an agent beyond their control.



But where do you find such "moral possession" explained in Scripture? How do you defend it exegetically? 

Jesus didn't just change people's minds about what to believe, he cast out actual personalities who exerted influence on people. 

And on what exegetical grounds do you say it only happened during the coming of Christ? Was Satan somehow bound before and after the time of Christ but unleashed during his first coming? How would you defend such exegetically? 



> 3) One biblical reason for believing there is nothing more than a moral possession that is possible is that everyone is commanded to repent: they are responsible for their own actions. If there was more than a moral (or deceptive) possession, they would not be responsible for their own actions (this is true of those in the OT too, hence point 2 above). Christians are told to resist the devil in moral terms and in terms of believing the truth. The devil is said to work in the wickedness of others, but the wicked works of men are attributed to themselves.



No one is able to repent without first being born again, whether possessed or not. The ability to repent comes through effectual calling and regeneration not through natural ability. Man is still responsible for his sin, whether possessed or no. In the case of possession then, he would surrender his faculties to the demonic influence, and is therefore responsible for the consequences of such surrender. So in either case, the sinner is effectually called, renewed, united to Christ, and indwelt by the Spirit, and for the demon possessed this would thereby "exorcise" them.

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## JM (Nov 24, 2018)




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## Afterthought (Nov 24, 2018)

Puritan Sailor said:


> No one is able to repent without first being born again, whether possessed or not. The ability to repent comes through effectual calling and regeneration not through natural ability.


As already pointed out, the bondage of the will is a moral bondage.



Puritan Sailor said:


> In the case of possession then, he would surrender his faculties to the demonic influence, and is therefore responsible for the consequences of such surrender.


What do you mean by this? Is the demonic influence now controlling the man's will, thought, actions, etc.? Is the demonic influence making the man do things? Or is the man now freely choosing particular sorts of evil and unable to choose otherwise, having given themselves over to that evil and the temptations/suggestions of Satan? The latter is what is meant by a moral-rational possession. The only difference then would be that one side would say something special is needed beyond prayer and belief of the truth; the other side would say that demonic power is deceptive, so prayer and belief of the truth (including the truth that Satan only has lying wonders) is "all" that is needed.


The exegetical arguments are basically looking to see what sort of influence the devil can have on people in the OT and in the NT and seeing that there is no physical influence (although physical influence is attributed to "demons" in the Gospel accounts; but not the devil), and the only terms in which Christians are told to resist the devil or test spirits is in moral-rational terms. Noticing a special phenomena that we only see in the time of Christ and the Apostles. Heeding Christ's statement that the phenomena of casting out devils was connected with the coming of the kingdom of God. Key passages are Matthew 12, 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 along with Acts 10 (for establishing that "demons" are not the reality but that the devil was behind the phenomena in some manner), and Ephesians 1 and 6. Calvin says that Satan's entering into Judas was in terms of moral possession, so perhaps an exegetical argument can be found there. He might say something also with Jesus' rebuke of Peter in terms of Satanic influence.

I wish I could be more helpful, but that's all I can do. I mainly entered the thread to briefly clarify the other position and show where this topic has been discussed before for further study.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Nov 24, 2018)

JM said:


>


So either that guy is acting or he is under supernatural spiritual bondage.


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## Pergamum (Nov 25, 2018)

"What do you do when you host a sagu feast. How do you make the decisions"
"I ask Walupul to enter me. Then it is me making the decisions, but Walupul is inside helping me make the decisions. I say it...it is my mouth...but it is really Walupul's mouth." Description of a tribal guy when hosting a party which involves animistic aspects. 

"What is this ceremony do,"
"We drum and play music and ask the spirits to enter us. And then when they enter us we become stronger."

Just two examples from the country where I serve.

I think that if you keep asking spirits to enter you, at least some of the time it is going to happen.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 25, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> What do you mean by this? Is the demonic influence now controlling the man's will, thought, actions, etc.? Is the demonic influence making the man do things?



Yes. That is how Scriptures describes those who are "possessed". They lose control of their faculties, at least temporarily. 



> Or is the man now freely choosing particular sorts of evil and unable to choose otherwise, having given themselves over to that evil and the temptations/suggestions of Satan? The latter is what is meant by a moral-rational possession.


Then "moral/rational possession" is not a useful term. Where does Scripture use the term "possession" in that way? Certainly people can have "strongholds" in their minds (i.e. 2 Cor 10:3-4) which are lies people believe that must give way to the truth. But that is not how Scripture describes the actual cases of "possession". 



> The only difference then would be that one side would say something special is needed beyond prayer and belief of the truth; the other side would say that demonic power is deceptive, so prayer and belief of the truth (including the truth that Satan only has lying wonders) is "all" that is needed.



The treatment would be the same in either case, God brings deliverance through the preaching of the Word and prayer. But the deliverance would certainly be more dramatic in the one formerly possessed by demons. The difference is that you now have a biblical category with which to understand the "possession" phenomena which don't fit into other categories of physical or mental afflictions (i.e. changes in personality, loss of control, communication with demonic spirits, etc.), and thus it can give you a more informed and directly applicable use of Scripture and prayer. 



> The exegetical arguments are basically looking to see what sort of influence the devil can have on people in the OT and in the NT and seeing that there is no physical influence (although physical influence is attributed to "demons" in the Gospel accounts; but not the devil), and the only terms in which Christians are told to resist the devil or test spirits is in moral-rational terms. Noticing a special phenomena that we only see in the time of Christ and the Apostles. Heeding Christ's statement that the phenomena of casting out devils was connected with the coming of the kingdom of God. Key passages are Matthew 12, 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 along with Acts 10 (for establishing that "demons" are not the reality but that the devil was behind the phenomena in some manner), and Ephesians 1 and 6. Calvin says that Satan's entering into Judas was in terms of moral possession, so perhaps an exegetical argument can be found there. He might say something also with Jesus' rebuke of Peter in terms of Satanic influence.



Thanks, I will look these over again. But you seem to overlook that fact that many of these warnings about the devil are given to Christians. They are united to Christ and indwelt by the Spirit. They cannot be possessed by demons any longer. The only danger they face from the devil is the moral/rational temptation, so of course the emphasis will be put there in exhortations to the church. 

But is that the only danger faced by the unregenerate who are still in bondage to sin and alienated from God? The gospel accounts seem to suggest otherwise.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 25, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> there is no physical influence (although physical influence is attributed to "demons" in the Gospel accounts; but not the devil),



1. A demonized man stripped the seven sons of Sceva naked.
2. The Gadarene demoniac snapped chains.

Those are physical influences.

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## OPC'n (Nov 25, 2018)

Whether a person is demon possessed or not is not something we can do anything about. So trying to decide if it's real or not is a moot subject and only leads to giving more thought to the demonic realm than we should. The gift of casting out demons is gone. Our only job is to put forth the Gospel to the unbeliever and pray for his salvation.


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## Jeri Tanner (Nov 25, 2018)

How we think about these things is determined mostly by the way you understand how God has designed or laid out the way we get to know his will from the Bible. It’s not just descriptive passages and proof texts. It’s a progression of what we are to infer from the way the information is laid out- many doctrinal positions must be inferred by how we understand “between the lines” the apostles’ ministry (to focus on the NT) and how things progressed through Acts, and the ‘settling down’ period, the regulations imposed by the apostles on the churches so that the church can transition to the practices that will carry her through to Christ’s coming. It’s an instruction painted by descriptions and prescriptions and you won’t see the big picture by focusing on the narratives. The narratives teach glorious things but must be combined with the epistles. The epistles are key for us understanding what we are to do “now”- now that Christ and then his apostles accomplished so much. Christ made sport of principalities and really did finish it, but he let us know by his words before he departed that there would be mopping up operations (described in Acts). You get to the epistles where we are to look for our marching orders and see that exorcising demons is not part of the work. There is activity of Satan described but how to combat and resist and be delivered is also prescribed. It’s not by exorcism; unbelievers held captive by Satan are called upon to repent and believe, and it’s through the ministry of the church (with words and prayer) that they’re converted. Understood from the rest of Scripture is that we’re to pray for unbelievers and we all know that unbelievers are influenced by Satan, held captive by him to do his will. That’s the state of every unbeliever. All of them need miraculous deliverance, and God does this all the time in the conversion of souls.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, “If I might summarize all these dangers, it is the danger of isolating a text or an idea and building up a system around it, instead of comparing Scripture with Scripture. It is the seeking of a short cut in the spiritual world... We must reject anything which is not based soundly upon the teaching of the Epistles. We must be very careful that we do not take an incident out of the Gospels, and weave a theory around it... we must realize that our standard... is to be found in the Epistles." ~ D.M. Lloyd-Jones, Knowing the Times, page 11


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## RamistThomist (Nov 25, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> The epistles are key for us understanding what we are to do “now”- now that Christ and then his apostles accomplished so much.



Except that the epistles teach that all these things, referring to narratives, were written for our instruction.



Jeri Tanner said:


> You get to the epistles where we are to look for our marching orders and see that exorcising demons is not part of the work.



Argument from silence. You also don't see any commands for women to take the Lord's Supper. 


Jeri Tanner said:


> Martyn Lloyd-Jones



Charismatic himself.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 25, 2018)

It's the Lord's Day; give this one a rest.

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