# Any truth in Psychological Egoism?



## Claudiu (Feb 3, 2010)

According to Thomas Hobbes in his view of Psychological Egoism he thinks that: It is _Human Nature_ to always act from Selfish motives. We cannot act otherwise. Therefore, altruistic acts, that is, action that is geared on doing good for another for the others sake is ruled out. 

The wiki article puts it this way: "Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism." (Psychological egoism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

From a Reformed perspective is the selfish aspect true of this view? We are fallen human beings, so does Hobbes speak any truth in that our actions are ultimately selfish in the sinful nature?

One refutation to Psych. Ego., that someone I know mentioned, is:
1. If Psych. Ego. is true, then Genuine Love and Friendship are impossible/non-existent. 
2. But Genuine Love and Friendship are not impossible --> they do exist.
3. Therefore, Psycho. Ego. is not true (it is False). 



Idk is my question makes any sense, if it doesn't I can write it out differently.


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## lynnie (Feb 3, 2010)

What a dark philosophy. Even heathens with no knowledge of God can suffer greatly to protect a child or friend. 

_since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)_

Unsaved people do many good and unselfish things things because the law is written on their hearts. Biblically they can do obedient to the law actions, as the conscience motivates- even though every single deed no matter how good is corrupted and fallen. Even those of us who are saved and filled with the holy spirit, even on our best days of walking with God and serving others, are still deserving of eternity in hell, and every good deed we do falls short of perfect motivation as well. But still, thank God, we are transformed by the holy spirit away from our selfishness to love. Imperfect love, but still love.


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## jwright82 (Feb 3, 2010)

i have never read a lot of thomas hobbes but lynnie is absolutly right. also we christians don't have to take such a dim view of the world for two reasons:
1. the original creation of men and woman were good, our falleness brought evil into the world.
2. there is no concept of redemption in hobbes thinking. no outside the selfish box so to speak. no way to improve.

he had a complete mechanistic view of the world and humans as well. the resulting morality is nothing less than pure practicality. anything whatsoever can probally be argued for on a practical basis, also practical ethics carry no logical "ought" with them. just because something is the more practical thing to do doesn't mean i ought to do it. hopefully i have demonstrated that the worldview that one must adopt to believe in psychological egoism is completly inconsistant with way things are experienced, if i have not than i apologize and please point out any errors i have made or anything i said that didn't make sense. if i am only person in the world who understands what i mean than i havn't done anybody any good, including myself. nice question and nice replies.


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## Peairtach (Feb 3, 2010)

These selfish theories are atheistical/presuppose atheism. 

If there is no God then the basic motivation of ethics and altruism must be traced to self. There is no higher entity or motive for doing good other than it must somehow be in our own interest.

If there is no God, no standard of goodness, holiness or ethics, then why would you do something for anyone else? When you think about it, it must be for some selfish reason at bottom, because there would be/could be no other reasons.

This book by late philosopher David Stove, who was actually an atheist himself, demolishes evolutionary sociobiological selfish theories in Man, and also to an extent in the animals, with humour, and is a relatively easy read:-

Darwinian Fairytales: Selfish Genes, Errors of Heredity and Other Fables of Evolution: Amazon.co.uk: David Stove: Books

The argumentation in the atheist's or budding atheist's soul is circular.

Since there is no God, the reason for altruism must be selfish.

Since people are only and always selfish (even when they appear to be altruistic) - according to my (the atheist's) theory - there must be no God.

Such a person is locked in bad circular reasoning.

Since there is altruism and a true selfish ethic is unthinkable and unliveable God exists and atheism is a busted flush.


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## davidsuggs (Feb 3, 2010)

You have the correct understanding of Hobbes and yes it is a very grim view of the world, ultimately requiring (says Hobbes) us to put all of our faith in one sovereign, all-determining State (Leviathan). This, of course, is the idolatry always threatening us, even as Americans.

On the psychological egoism, I think it tends to be fairly accurate. When unbelievers act in a "moral" fashion, they do so in order to satisfy a guilt they feel (originating from the Law written on their hearts). However, as it is not done to the glory of God, it can, I think, only be seen as another attempt to scratch their own itch (i.e., to remove the burdensome guilt temporarily). 

I tend to discount much of what Hobbes says, but I do think on this he is pointed in the right direction, especially in regards to his description of fallen human nature (which he names "the state of nature"):

(from the wiki article) 
"In this state any person has a natural right to do anything to preserve his own liberty or safety, and life is *'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short [Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan]'*."


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## Peairtach (Feb 4, 2010)

*Quote from Suggs*


> I tend to discount much of what Hobbes says, but I do think on this he is pointed in the right direction, especially in regards to his description of fallen human nature (which he names "the state of nature"):
> 
> (from the wiki article)
> "In this state any person has a natural right to do anything to preserve his own liberty or safety, and life is 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short [Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan]'."



Much of what we do before we are converted is motivated by selfishness, and, hopefully, less of what we do after we are converted. But the selfish theories of ethics to the extent that they exclude God are more cynical than Reformed Christianity because they do not have common grace before conversion and saving grace after conversion which lift Man out of the level of complete selfishness.


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## Claudiu (Feb 4, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------




Richard Tallach said:


> These selfish theories are atheistical/presuppose atheism.
> 
> If there is no God then the basic motivation of ethics and altruism must be traced to self. There is no higher entity or motive for doing good other than it must somehow be in our own interest.
> 
> ...


 


I heard this book mentioned before, so I'm thinking of reading it sometime.


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