# Where Are All the Reformed and Presbyterian City Churches?



## N. Eshelman (Dec 18, 2008)

Today I was doing some research and got stuck on the number of Reformed Presbyterian Churches that have left major US and Canadian cities. 

Here are some of my thoughts.


----------



## sastark (Dec 19, 2008)

Nathan, I believe you have asked a very important question. One that does not have very nice answers. White flight, the unwillingness/inability of Reformed churches to reach out to immigrants and changing ethnic populations, being a church of the middle class, I think all these are reasons why we don't find Reformed and/or Presbyterian churches in the downtown areas of our major cities anymore.

Also, thanks for posting the Google StreetView links. That is a great tour!


----------



## Christusregnat (Dec 19, 2008)

sastark said:


> Nathan, I believe you have asked a very important question. One that does not have very nice answers. White flight, the unwillingness/inability of Reformed churches to reach out to immigrants and changing ethnic populations, being a church of the middle class, I think all these are reasons why we don't find Reformed and/or Presbyterian churches in the downtown areas of our major cities anymore.
> 
> Also, thanks for posting the Google StreetView links. That is a great tour!



Add to this the fact that part of the Communist Manifesto was the make the world a huge city (no distinction between rural and urban areas), large cities generally have an overflow of wickedness and anti-christianity, and despise the Word. I don't think that this must be the case, I am simply describing how I perceive things to be.

The net result of this social environment is that most churches in big cities are heavily influenced by their local culture rather than vice versa.

Cheers,

Adam


----------



## he beholds (Dec 19, 2008)

Our church is in the city.


----------



## sastark (Dec 19, 2008)

he beholds said:


> Our church is in the city.



And I applaud the PCA's efforts to establish churches in major cities. If only more would follow suit.

-----Added 12/19/2008 at 12:10:34 EST-----



Christusregnat said:


> Add to this the fact that part of the Communist Manifesto was the make the world a huge city (no distinction between rural and urban areas), large cities generally have an overflow of wickedness and anti-christianity, and despise the Word. I don't think that this must be the case, I am simply describing how I perceive things to be.



Without disagreeing, I wonder if this is a "chicken or the egg" type argument: does an overflow of wickedness lead to churches withdrawing from urban centers or do churches withdrawing from urban centers lead to an overflow of wickedness?




Christusregnat said:


> The net result of this social environment is that most churches in big cities are heavily influenced by their local culture rather than vice versa.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Adam



Sad, but true. Though, I wonder if this is the case in the specific instance of the Reformed Presbyterians? I may have my disagreements with them, but they do seem to be fairly constant in their witness, so I wonder how prone they are to being influenced by their local culture? Sadly, I do not believe they (or other reformed groups) influenced the city around them as the cities declined, which I feel is a major area we all need improvement in.


----------



## he beholds (Dec 19, 2008)

I guess I should add that I think the majority of our members come from out of the city to attend church, but we do have some members from the city. I like that we have a presence in the city, and all of our church's neighbors see us every Sunday meeting there. It is a nicer part of the city (by no means the nicest, nor is it inner-city), but it is still the city.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> sastark said:
> 
> 
> > The net result of this social environment is that most churches in big cities are heavily influenced by their local culture rather than vice versa.
> ...


----------



## Scott1 (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm not sure of the demographics here we are speaking of.

Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City is a very large church, 5 services Lord's day and has several church plants in the immediate area. There are several inner city churches in the nongeographical Korean presbytery in the PCA and also in another denomination. Philadelphia area has at least 17 PCA churches, many more if you include the greater metro area.

As far as church attendance generally, NYC had a big upswing in churches and church attendance in the 80's and 90's which, curiously, corresponded with declining crime rates, urban blight, and an upswing in property values and new development.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> I'm not sure of the demographics here we are speaking of.
> 
> Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City is a very large church, 5 services Lord's day and has several church plants in the immediate area. There are several inner city churches in the nongeographical Korean presbytery in the PCA and also in another denomination. Philadelphia area has at least 17 PCA churches, many more if you include the greater metro area.
> 
> As far as church attendance generally, NYC had a big upswing in churches and church attendance in the 80's and 90's which, curiously, corresponded with declining crime rates, urban blight, and an upswing in property values and new development.



As much as I appreciate Dr. Kellar's ministry to the city of NY- he and all of the PCA plants in NY that he has been a part of are the EXCEPTION to the Reformed rule concerning cities, and not the rule. Remember that when he petitioned the PCA to start Redeemer, they basically told him that he was nuts. 

I know other men who have had similar reactions from their presbyteries- Dr. Blackwood in the RPCNA is one of them. He wanted to start an urban ministry in Indianapolis in the 1960s and the RP Church told him no! He asked again, but said that he would not take any denominational monies- then it was okay, of course. 

The long and short is that from his church planting there are 8 Indiana congregations as a result and one in the Chicago suburbs! (All quite healthy and prospering as well!)


----------



## wturri78 (Dec 19, 2008)

I think it's always sad to go through a big city and see the big, old, grand churches of many denominations that are either empty, or suffering from rapidly declining membership. Of the few I've checked out in my area near Dayton, OH, those that are actually in Dayton are way to the left of those "mainline" churches in the 'burbs. Websites whose mission statements include all sorts of liberal social issues and nothing at all about Christ. I've wondered how my own church could spread into that sort of area before. Almost everyone at our 100-ish member church is college educated, well-read, and frankly, white. There is no rythm at our church 

Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

Good thoughts Bill.


----------



## Scott1 (Dec 19, 2008)

> wturri78's
> Puritanboard Freshman
> 
> Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.



Maybe I'm not quite seeing the same things or am a bit too optimistic.

I see reformed theology as being forward, culturally engaging, and tilting toward cultural transformation. Every aspect of man's knowledge is but the understanding of God's world. That's why one can be reformed and be a butcher, baker or candlestick maker...or a nuclear physicist...or a professional ballet dancer. It's one of the strenghts as I see it in reformed theology.

While we can't make the case by one church in NYC alone, I can tell you it seems to me quite a varied group of people being engaged. For example, it seemed that almost a third of the people were "Asian" of one sort or another when I have visited. Also, a lot of young professionals. I don't see this as signs of "dying out" at all.

What is dying out are the mainline denominations that have given themselves over to modernism. Granted, many are not seeking out biblical and reformed alternatives, many are seeking a pop culture "good time" centered on self; but certainly not all.

What's new and fresh and exciting about teaching the full counsel of reformed theology is that while it is not new, it seems that way. When it is faithfully taught and applied because it has been rare in this generation, it is actually increasing- even in the larger cities. Not dominant, but the trend is up now it seems.


----------



## mvdm (Dec 19, 2008)

FYI, the URC has a mission plant across from ground zero in NY city:

Messiah


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

mvdm said:


> FYI, the URC has a mission plant across from ground zero in NY city:
> 
> Messiah



I knew Paul Murphey quite well when he was here in Grand Rapids. Good guy.


----------



## turmeric (Dec 19, 2008)

We are struggling to have a church in the city, but most of us live in the suburbs and commute in. What we find in the middle of our city is not a traditional "hood", that's in the NE section; in the city are old pensioners and street people and their dogs. We are next to a large campus, which brings us students, but they only stay 3-4 years and leave.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

turmeric said:


> We are struggling to have a church in the city, but most of us live in the suburbs and commute in. What we find in the middle of our city is not a traditional "hood", that's in the NE section; in the city are old pensioners and street people and their dogs. We are next to a large campus, which brings us students, but they only stay 3-4 years and leave.



Thanks Meg. What are ministries that you all have tried. (Any that worked? Any that did NOT work?)


----------



## dannyhyde (Dec 19, 2008)

mvdm said:


> FYI, the URC has a mission plant across from ground zero in NY city:
> 
> Messiah



And a church plant in Washington, D.C., about 1.5 miles from the president's house.

Check out the Google map to see where it is.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

dannyhyde said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> > FYI, the URC has a mission plant across from ground zero in NY city:
> ...



Is this where Obama will be attending? I think that the name Messiah's Church would be more appropriate for Mr. Obama though.


----------



## turmeric (Dec 19, 2008)

nleshelman said:


> turmeric said:
> 
> 
> > We are struggling to have a church in the city, but most of us live in the suburbs and commute in. What we find in the middle of our city is not a traditional "hood", that's in the NE section; in the city are old pensioners and street people and their dogs. We are next to a large campus, which brings us students, but they only stay 3-4 years and leave.
> ...


 
We tried reaching out to AIDS patients by doing tasks (house cleaning, grocery shopping, helping them move), which was a raging success until our fearless leader had to stop and raise her growing family. The social workers loved us for a while till we had to stop. We can't find a person who can coordinate the program. We are currently involved with a rescue mission, participating one night a month, and some are involved with a ministry which offers dinner and a movie to homeless youth once a week. That program also offers clothing and mentorship as the kids develope enough trust for that to work. We participate in a bi-annual Reformation Day service where we join with Baptists and lately Sovereign Grace churches and share a liturgy, communion, and fellowship. Due to staff issues (we are currently seeking a senior pastor) and people moving, we are experiencing a financial crunch, which is making it hard to do this stuff or to expand it.


----------



## wturri78 (Dec 19, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> > wturri78's
> > Puritanboard Freshman
> >
> > Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
> ...



Scott, I absolutely agree that Reformed theology and its emphasis upon teaching the full counsel of Scripture is engaging, relevant, challenging and understandable to bakers and nuclear physicists  I wasn't wondering whether the teaching was going to be foreign to people outside the suburbs, but whether the cultural "wrapping" that usually accompanies it (in predominantly white, middle-class, suburban Presbyterian churches) will seem completely foreign in the city. Sometimes it comes across as a little bit dry and stuffy to me! But I also realize there's a range of practice, music and so forth within our churches, with the OPC/RPC being on the "stodgy" end (sorry guys, but we know it's true! ) and some PCA churches being a little bit trendier, or whatever you want to call it.


----------



## refbaptdude (Dec 19, 2008)

Watch the video on this page - very good

Tenth Presbyterian Church - Philadelphia, PA: The City Where I Have Sent You Video

enjoy,
Steve


----------



## kvanlaan (Dec 19, 2008)

> Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.



Does this then validate/answer Pastor Eshelman's OP? I think most Reformed churches are indeed steeped in 'confessional' language and have a distinct 16th century feel to them. Especially a denomination like the RP (insofar as I know it). And, does this then mean that a BR church will work in the inner city but a TR church will die for lack of 'relevance'?


----------



## turmeric (Dec 19, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
> 
> 
> 
> Does this then validate/answer Pastor Eshelman's OP? I think most Reformed churches are indeed steeped in 'confessional' language and have a distinct 16th century feel to them. Especially a denomination like the RP (insofar as I know it). And, does this then mean that a BR church will work in the inner city but a TR church will die for lack of 'relevance'?


 
Actually, the Koreans seemed to find Presbyterianism appealing, and Presbyterians did a lot of mission in the Middle East in the 19th Century. I think we can contextualize to some extent, but the Gospel is the Gospel, and confessions and psalms can be translated. Actually, the Gospel started in a 1st Century Middle Eastern context and the English ended up liking it pretty well for a while.


----------



## Theognome (Dec 19, 2008)

I can't speak for other cities, but Kansas City actually has quite a large number of Reformed churches, and even has a city-wide council of Reformed churches of many denominations that worship, play and evangelize together.

Can it be said that there is a connection between biblical Christianity and covenant and land? Does not raw earth, given as an inheritance from the Lord to families/clans, have an influence upon appreciation for God's promises? And within a dense city, is land a generous commodity? Nay, it is not- but the blessings of His inheritance can be found in plenty within suburbia and beyond.

Theognome


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 19, 2008)

Theognome said:


> I can't speak for other cities, but Kansas City actually has quite a large number of Reformed churches, and even has a city-wide council of Reformed churches of many denominations that worship, play and evangelize together.
> 
> Can it be said that there is a connection between biblical Christianity and covenant and land? Does not raw earth, given as an inheritance from the Lord to families/clans, have an influence upon appreciation for God's promises? And within a dense city, is land a generous commodity? Nay, it is not- but the blessings of His inheritance can be found in plenty within suburbia and beyond.
> 
> Theognome



There are plenty of rural Reformed churches that are dying off as we speak. The passing of land from generation to generation means little to a younger generation that is seeking employment and educational opportunity in other places besides where their parents, grand parents, & great-great grand parents reside(d). 

In my denomination we have a number of churches in Kansas as well as other rural areas that are alarmed at the number of young people who leave for college and choose not to return. (There are exceptions of course!) 

The problems faced in the city are different than the problems faced in the more rural areas, but I would imagine that the only place where Reformed churches are doing very well is in suburbia. 

Anyone else have thoughts on this?


----------



## Tim (Dec 20, 2008)

Surely the cost of real estate must come into the discussion. I mean, what are you going to do in mid-town Manhattan? Although, I am reminding myself as I type that God provides.... Does anyone know anything about the costs a church-plant might expect in some expensive city areas? One solution would be to go the home church route and just meet in an apartment/flat/townhouse. But then that caps your congregation at 25-30 at the very, very most. 

I think there is a phenomenon of new churches buying land out in the country (when and while it is cheap) and then waiting for suburbia to expand out to there.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 20, 2008)

turmeric said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> > > Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
> ...



This may be  (feel free to move this to its own thread) but I think the PCA can take a little advice and look at the example set by the ARP and the RPCNA in how we deal with our Korean and Japanese brothers. In the ARP we integrate the Korean and English churches into the same Presbytery. For example the Presbytery of the Northeast (my presbytery) is now a majority Korean presbytery. Us Anglos are the minority in the Presbytery and it makes for a much more joyful and exciting experience when we are not cut off from hearing the ministry success of our Korean brothers and fellowship with them as equals and co-laborers in Christ.


----------



## turmeric (Dec 20, 2008)

That would be excellent, Ben, I'm surprised we don't do that.


----------



## CovenantalBaptist (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks Nathan for raising this. This is one of my great concerns. 

I come from a city where the greater metropolitan area has about 5-6 million people (about 1/3 the population of Canada lives in southern and south-western Ontario within 4-5 hours of the city - 10 million in Southern Ontario). Our city is now considered the most multicultural city in the world and yet despite its location in the Western world it is very underserviced in terms of churches, particularly conservative Reformed churches. It is very hard to recommend good churches. I commend the PCA for planting here (although I have not yet met their pastor) and I encourage the OPC (who have a small unilingual Portugese work outside the city), the RPCNA (which closed its only work here recently), the URC (which also has a small work), the ARP (which has a good Canadian presbytery but nothing near the city) and any other faithful confessional group to plant here. 

It is my prayer that the Lord will use us despite some of our challenges (most of our congregation commutes from long distances and we are small) to reach the city. We rent the basement of a liberal church and are located just off the main street in the heart of the city, though none of us can afford to live in the neighbourhood (homes range around $800,000 to 1.2 million). We make do at the moment with living near the highway on the outskirts of the city. I travel more to visit, and I try to keep some "office hours" at a local coffee shop in the church's neighbourhood once a week to meet locals and evangelize. It is hard to have young children with not many peers for them to grow up with and certainly not many Christian influences, but this is not really different than other mission fields and it's even better than many. I would love to have the privilege to do what Mark Dever and Capitol Hill Baptist Church (9 Marks) have done in their Washington DC neighbourhood. They had a few advantages (they owned their building and had a larger base and a very gifted preacher), but the Lord has richly blessed and grown their city ministry. Many of the elders of the church now live on the same street as the church and they are very active in their city community and the Lord has blessed their growth. I'm praying the Lord will help us to establish a robust confessional Reformed presence in the city for His glory. Dever speaks about what they did in DC in a church planting seminar. 

I know we're not alone in our city, or in Canada - I recently tried to find a good confessional Reformed Baptist/Presbyterian church in Chicago and found similar challenges. May the Lord have mercy and send more preachers and produce more converts by His Spirit that we may extend the Gospel for His name's sake into all the cities of the world.


----------



## N. Eshelman (Dec 20, 2008)

CovenantalBaptist said:


> Thanks Nathan for raising this. This is one of my great concerns.
> 
> I come from a city where the greater metropolitan area has about 5-6 million people (about 1/3 the population of Canada lives in southern and south-western Ontario within 4-5 hours of the city - 10 million in Southern Ontario). Our city is now considered the most multicultural city in the world and yet despite its location in the Western world it is very underserviced in terms of churches, particularly conservative Reformed churches. It is very hard to recommend good churches. I commend the PCA for planting here (although I have not yet met their pastor) and I encourage the OPC (who have a small unilingual Portugese work outside the city), the RPCNA (which closed its only work here recently), the URC (which also has a small work), the ARP (which has a good Canadian presbytery but nothing near the city) and any other faithful confessional group to plant here.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this Chris. There is SO MUCH WORK to be done. FYI, my friend, Pastor Don Overbeek of the Heritage Reformed Church, is in Bradford Ontario. That is somewhere near Toronto (or in). It is good to see men who love the city and want to bring Christ to it.


----------

