# Lack of Calvinistic Churches



## heartoflesh (Feb 8, 2005)

(I purposefully chose the term "Calvinistic" rather than "Reformed" to avoid the debate over "what constitutes Reformed") 

I'm just wondering why there is such a lack of Calvinistic churches in our land. I'm not sure if this is true where you live, but in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area this is certainly true. I can personally only name three in our entire metro area. 

I know that Calvinists are in the minority today, but I can't believe it could be to the extent that I see represented by the lack of churches that proclaim it. Just look at how many members we have on this board, and then imagine how many others there are out there that hold similar convictions. 

Does the problem stem from a lack of seminary training? Problems with church planting? 

What are your thoughts?

Rick


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## ARStager (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm lamenting this same lack in my hometown. In all of West Cleveland, Oh, there are hardly ANY reformed churches of any sort --- there are certainly no PCA or OPC churches.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 8, 2005)

I believe the circuit riders and evangelist of early times are to blame. Charles Finney and the arminian Methodist preachers laid much of the ground work for the mid-west. If you ever travel the little towns of the mid-west you will notice a United Methodist Church or Christian Church in every little town. That is due to the efforts of the circuit riders. I believe the semi-pelagian Baptist were Methodist who wanted a more secure future without God imposing to much on their free will. I have noticed there are more Presbyterian churches on the East Coast. That is due to the fact that the Presbyterian's were the main force of the Scottish-Irish who settled in Virginia and the South. They were also the main thrust during the Revolutionary War in those Parts.


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 8, 2005)

I believe it's because most reformed folks got into 'God bless 'US' and nobody else' mentality. I see many an Arminian out on the street corners witnessing and passing out tracts, I see their missions organizations all set to go and hear more about their work visibly than I do with most reformed churches. It's much easier to 'not' fellowship with those who may believe some things differently and stay 'inside our own doors'.


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## heartoflesh (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> I believe it's because most reformed folks got into 'God bless 'US' and nobody else' mentality. I see many an Arminian out on the street corners witnessing and passing out tracts, I see their missions organizations all set to go and hear more about their work visibly than I do with most reformed churches. It's much easier to 'not' fellowship with those who may believe some things differently and stay 'inside our own doors'.



So it could be the influence of hyper-Calvinism? Or, possibly just the reality that since there are so fewer Calvinistic churches, they are just that much less visible?


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by OS_X_
> I believe it's because most reformed folks got into 'God bless 'US' and nobody else' mentality.



I have not encountered this in the *FEW* reformed churches in my area. Most have raised a ton of money for the Tsumani victims as an example.



> I see many an Arminian out on the street corners witnessing and passing out tracts, I see their missions organizations all set to go and hear more about their work visibly than I do with most reformed churches. It's much easier to 'not' fellowship with those who may believe some things differently and stay 'inside our own doors'.



That's because most Arminians believe it is their responsability to talk people into Salvation. Trust me, I know this because I *LIVED* it for years. You believe Salvation is for all people and you need to be doing whatever you can to make that choice more appealing.

Knowing now that God is in charge of salvation allows me to calm down. I still witness, but I now do not feel like I am not doing a good enough job if those I speak to continue to reject Christ. I don't have to get them an easier bible, I don't have to buy cartoon tracts to make the gospel seem kind of cool, and I don't have to take them to Christian Rock concerts to show them they can have fun as a Christian.

Much stress has been lufted from me!


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## satz (Feb 9, 2005)

> Knowing now that God is in charge of salvation allows me to calm down. I still witness, but I now do not feel like I am not doing a good enough job if those I speak to continue to reject Christ. I don't have to get them an easier bible, I don't have to buy cartoon tracts to make the gospel seem kind of cool, and I don't have to take them to Christian Rock concerts to show them they can have fun as a Christian.
> 
> Much stress has been lufted from me!




 
yes, this is indeed a great relief, to know that we have a duty to preach the gospel but that convincing sinners of its truth is not on our shoulders. Honestly, i think if arminians were serious about shouldering this responsiblity, it would prove to be far to great a burden to bear.



> I believe it's because most reformed folks got into 'God bless 'US' and nobody else' mentality. I see many an Arminian out on the street corners witnessing and passing out tracts, I see their missions organizations all set to go and hear more about their work visibly than I do with most reformed churches. It's much easier to 'not' fellowship with those who may believe some things differently and stay 'inside our own doors'.



i haven't seen this in any church, but i have seen a ton of it in my own heart. Honestly, if not for this board, i think i would certainly be a rabid hyper-Calvinist by now.


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## heartoflesh (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> yes, this is indeed a great relief, to know that we have a duty to preach the gospel but that convincing sinners of its truth is not on our shoulders.



Let us just be careful here (and I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but just throwing out the exhortation). Our pleading with sinners should match, _yea exceed_ that of the most zealous Arminian (excluding stupid postmodern seeker-sensitive games, of course). 

"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we *implore* you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." 2 Cor. 5:20

I think we should act in such a way as if it really were on our shoulders, (knowing full well that it isn't). Moses and Paul were willing to be damned for the salvation of others. They obviously knew the truth of God's sovereignty, and yet weren't embarrassed to express their desire to cooperate in the matter, and neither should we. Let's not give evanjellyfish any excuse to accuse Calvinists of playing down evangelism. (again, not saying that's what anyone's doing--just making the statement).

Rick

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## Larry Hughes (Feb 9, 2005)

> I believe the circuit riders and evangelist of early times are to blame.



I agree Randy at least here in the southern regions in Kentucky. It is like a burnt over district and Christianity is more of a social thing than anything else.

I disagree that all arminian churches do more outreach than calvinistic ones. Because by in far the arminian churches pervade KY by most denominations and I've been in a few of them. For the most part they out reach very little at all. The one I was at that was heavy on out reach and was heavy arminian did so by "praying the prayer" and all that getem and checkem off your list approach. I actually saw people all but force someone into praying the prayer with high pressure in their own homes. Then numbers were tallied at the end as "celebration time". It was sheer numbers and volume, but true conversions?? I'm not saying some did not come to faith but it was incidental to the method.

During an in country mission trip in which NUMEROUS Christians from around the country from many different churches came to witness to Mormons during their pageant - we discussed with those there how many professions of faith were made. Upon return we tallied that into our churches tally for the trip and of course that is reported to the SBC. The point being is that - that number was wrongly multiplied. Yet, it made the stat sheets.

How much real outreach is being done when it is "prayer praying" with probable momentary professions, then they are brought into a church where the pastor teaches nothing at all but empty speeches.

I've heard friends of mine lament the lack of zeal among Christians today when compared to say Mormons or JWs. There is a bit of truth to that but one, Mormons and JWs don't battle the flesh; two, zeal for working one's way to heaven is unchallenged in pure flesh (which is why they do it) and right up our fallen alley; and, three, false doctrine has always been easier to propogate. Why? Because people generally like it and accept it. "God has a wonderful plan for your life" simply sells better than, "You must realize that you are at war with God and in dire need of pure mercy."

An encouraging thing I saw lately in some stats was that our generation, xer's, are growing toward approaching evangelism by reasoned argumentation.

lh


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## satz (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by satz_
> ...



Agreed.


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > I see many an Arminian out on the street corners witnessing and passing out tracts, I see their missions organizations all set to go and hear more about their work visibly than I do with most reformed churches. It's much easier to 'not' fellowship with those who may believe some things differently and stay 'inside our own doors'.
> ...



It's *still* your responsibility to talk to people about salvation, and as Rick has rightly pointed out, your zeal for doing so should _exceed_ that of the average Arminian. The difference being, you should now feel more open to sharing the truth (and not softening it) for you audience.

This is a part of the 'God bless US' mentality I was talking about earlier - it includes a more 'laid back' and 'less urgent' approach to outreach and evangelism. Some of the best Calvinists (Spurgeon, Edwards) were more than frantic and urgent in their presentations of the gospel, as though it DID depend on them (knowing full well that it didn't). Paul's presentation of the gospel - to become all things to all men so that he might win some - show that he was willing to do what was necessary to get the message out there and that he was urgent about it.

I don't see the local OPC church, for example, doing that. I *do* see Sovereign Grace Ministries doing this. And while giving to the Tsunami relief effort is all well and fine.... what are you doing locally to impact your community for Christ ?


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 9, 2005)

Me personally?

Well, I spend every day, all day with a pack of wild teen age girls who need every ounce of spiritual truth that one can muster every second of every day.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> So it could be the influence of hyper-Calvinism? Or, possibly just the reality that since there are so fewer Calvinistic churches, they are just that much less visible?



I think it's a little of both. I also think that often, reformed churches are so preoccupied with right doctrine, that they neglect active evangelism. You can't have one or the other. You must have both right doctine and evangelism, or else you will die out.


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## future expatriate (Feb 10, 2005)

I think that what has been said so far is generally true. I think that it also should be considered that, in our current postmodern-whoring world, people just don't want to hear it. Truth is too objective.


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## Larry Hughes (Feb 10, 2005)

It seems to be a lot of factors.

I think part of it is our closed society. Something my brother in law noticed when on mission trips over in Lebanon was that even though the country was hostile as a whole people still invited you in or to sit and talk. Here in America society today is much much more closed to anything. Everyone is so rushed and time burned out/consumed that knowbody slows down.

Part of it is a lack of leadership from the leaders. Many leaders here tend to "lead" from behind and push rather than actually lead from the front and shepherd. This is especially true with evangelism. Paul always lead by example and he didn't whine and belly ache about the sheep acting like sheep.

Another is a failure to recognize gifting and function as a unit rather than a bunch of individuals. E.g. I've been around those who are truly gifted in evangelism and when they lead an effort they inspire and strengthen others in the whole effort who are not so gifted, rather than beat up their weaknesses. Its the same thing with teaching, gifted teachers inspire learning in those who otherwise are weak at it, mercies the same, et... That's the purpose of spiritual gifts. Sadly, the churches tendency today seems to be to stick with the individualistic model rather than a body functioning toward a single purpose.

Another is a lack of clear preaching of the Law and Gospel from many pulpits and a tendancy toward moralistic, live by example sermons, rather than Christ from the text. Gospel inspires gospel. It is one thing to talk about the Gospel and use the term "G-o-s-p-e-l" and quite another to actually preach/teach/declare the real unconfused Good News. Likewise it is one thing to talk about evangelism and quite another to speak the evangel itself. The parallels of recapturing Justification by faith alone (the pure Gospel) started under Luther and what caught on fire in Reformational Europe and the Gospel moving at Pentecost are quite illuminating.


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## heartoflesh (Feb 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> 
> Another is a lack of clear preaching of the Law and Gospel from many pulpits and a tendancy toward moralistic, live by example sermons, rather than Christ from the text. Gospel inspires gospel.



I think this is huge. Evangelicalism's Arminian-by-default philosophy can't be defended by Scripture, so it has to look somewhere else-- thus, to dwell on moralistic themes, or purpose-driven themes, etc. 

Take my church's denomination for example, the C&MA. It chooses not to take any position on doctrines like election. And what is the result? Well, I don't think you'll ever hear a sermon preached on Romans 8:28-30. What would there be to preach about? If it doesn't teach election, what does it teach? What possible meaning could the passage serve? I doubt I'll ever hear it mentioned. And how many other numerous passages of Scripture have now been relegated to the "don't ask, don't tell" category? 

It's enough to make one wonder how long Christian laypeople will continue to be duped by this hogwash, and thus, how long there will continue to be a "lack of calvinistic churches".

[Edited on 10-2-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Me personally?
> 
> Well, I spend every day, all day with a pack of wild teen age girls who need every ounce of spiritual truth that one can muster every second of every day.



All I can say to that is  . Keep doing Kingdom work, Adam. 

Though we disagree at times (and BTW, I wasn't trying to talk down to you in the last post), I really admire your zeal. It comes out a lot in your typing.


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## Plimoth Thom (Feb 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> I'm just wondering why there is such a lack of Calvinistic churches in our land. I'm not sure if this is true where you live, but in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area this is certainly true. I can personally only name three in our entire metro area.



I'm in the opposite situation. Living in Grand Rapids, Michigan there are literally hundreds of calvinist churches in the area. They're mostly Dutch Reformed denominations, RCA, CRC etc. with very few Presbyterian churches. The CRC by far has the most churches in the area.


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