# Undergraduate Study and Future Seminary Plans



## Justified (Feb 6, 2014)

Hello I'm Evan Kramer. I'm rather new to the Puritanboard, and I was hoping for some counsel and advice. Next year I will be a student at University of Iowa. I will be a double major in classics and economics. This is where the question arises. Originally my second major was philosophy. However, I came up with the idea of getting my degree also in economics, so that I might work for a couple years before going to seminary. Is this a sound idea? Also, theoretically, if I graduate with no student debt (which is possible and probable) is it better to go directly to seminary? How many of you entered Seminary with debt? My current thinking is to go work for a couple years and be mentored for several years before going to seminary. What is the best advice you have? Would it be better to drop the economics degree and pick up something else? Thanks for any and all help!


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## Edward (Feb 6, 2014)

Speaking as someone who has spent most of his career dealing with debt and debtors, I would say:

It is well to avoid debt. It is even better to avoid student loan debt. There is clearly a difference in quality of life between those who are burdened with student loan debt and those who are not. 

It is good to have a skill, or trade, or profession to fall back on. There may be times when you are without a call (either through no fault of your own, or because of something you have done or not done). On the other hand, I'm not sure how well economics would meet that goal.

Oh, and by the way, 'Greetings'.


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 6, 2014)

A broad education (like a major in a diverse field such as Economics) should help to make you a well rounded man, and pastor if that's what you are called to be after seminary training. All of life is "preparation" for the rest of life, so as long as you are growing in grace (using God's appointed means), you aren't wasting time or energy, even when you may think you are stuck in the wrong gear.

Economics is (in my view) ineradicably ethical, although you may get very little of that perspective, depending on how the UofI department sees things. Theology is concerned with the Faith, which has a particular ethic.

Classics study may start you well on your way to linguistic and literary appreciation of the biblical text. It should immerse you in the ancient world, from which the Bible emerged.

Philosophy could conceivably help you understand how the ideas that infest the world (and the order of their origin and process of their development) have produced the mindsets of today's cultures.

I think you should study what you love, even if it is something other than these. There's a sense in which any background education that teaches you how to read and think deeply and carefully will serve you down the line. It isn't bad to be trying to think several steps ahead; but you don't really know today if any of your theoretical degrees will have a particular application to your employment. Econ may (possibly) help you land an interim job with good pay quicker than Phil, but that's by no means certain.

And if you marry, and if you start having children, you are going to have to factor all that Providential duty assignment into the mix to keep the dream alive.

My practical advice would be: try to acquire as little debt as possible, and retire it as quickly as possible.


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## Justified (Feb 7, 2014)

Thank you both for your responses. Your advice and encouragement is valuable to me.


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## FenderPriest (Feb 7, 2014)

Evan,

I agree with the above advice. As best you can, if you study in Classics, LEARN THE LANGUAGES! It will set you miles ahead in study and make you more able to understand God's Word for the benefit of his people.

I also think it's a great idea to wait a few years before heading into formal pastoral training. It gives you time to grow in way that constant schooling wouldn't force you to do - like serving sacrificially in unseen ways in the church. I think it's to every pastor's benefit to be a "tent maker". I'd also encourage you to submit your own sense of calling to your local elders/presbytery to have them counsel and guide you through your own exploration of a calling.

Well done my friend. I think you're setting out a very wise course of action!


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## ProtestantBankie (Feb 7, 2014)

Can I ask how student loans work in the US?

It may deviate from the point a little, but it would be good to get a run down. Here in the UK a Student Loan is essentially interest-free, and you only need to make a contribution to it when you earn over $25,000 a year. If you don't pay it back within 30 years of getting your last payment - it is waived off completely.


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## hammondjones (Feb 7, 2014)

ProtestantBankie said:


> Can I ask how student loans work in the US?




Student Loans are easy to get.

In the US, there are both subsidized and un-subsidized loans.
The government pays the interest on the subsidized, while for un-subsidized the interest accrues, but is deferred (optionally) and capitalized into the principal upon graduation (or leaving school for a year). At that time the loan begins to amortize, and you're on the hook for the payment. There are programs to reduce the payment to a certain % of income, and there are loan forgiveness programs for those who have paid for 25/30 years or so, but I'm not too familiar with the details.




> What is the best advice you have?


I agree - study what you love. God made you the way you are for a reason. My previous work was in mathematics, and that is currently paying my way through seminary. Plus, I think experience in a non-pastoral career will only help you in the future, as it would help you identify with those under your care.


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## Sensus Divinitas (Feb 7, 2014)

My $0.02. My undergrad degree was in history and political science (double major). After graduating, I got a job in state government using my poli sci background. I still have that job and attend seminary part time. That has worked out well for me at least. I do have some student debt from by undergrad degree, but I have been able to pay for seminary out of pocket entirely. There was a four year gap between earning my BA and starting on my MA. Honestly, I wish I wouldn't have waited so long but in God's Providence circumstances did not allow that.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Feb 7, 2014)

Have you sought counsel from your elders?


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## MusicMan (Feb 7, 2014)

Avoid student loans as much as possible. They don't go away. I like your idea of Eco

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Justified (Feb 7, 2014)

Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> Have you sought counsel from your elders?


 I have spoken to both my youth and senior pastor. They have both given me very broad advice. My church is a calvinistic dispensational Baptist Church. Actually, they are mostly 3.5 or 4 pointers. They all know I'm reformed and respect it all though they disagree. I will be attending a PCA church when I go to college. I'm hoping that while there I will hopefully refine my call and receive counsel.


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## Edward (Feb 7, 2014)

ProtestantBankie said:


> Can I ask how student loans work in the US?



Generally, they can't be discharged in bankruptcy. Federal loans (as opposed to private loans) may be forgiven if you work in certain unpopular jobs in unpleasant locations. If you can outlive your loan, it will be discharged at death.


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## MusicMan (Feb 8, 2014)

For what it's worth, I worked in a low-income school 10 years and never got the promised reduction, but just keep getting more and more forms to complete as "the law is in flux". This has been going on for five years now. I finally quit teaching to make more income to pay them back unreduced. I'm not bitter, but I am certainly wiser. Tread carefully.


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## danborvan (Feb 10, 2014)

University of Iowa has an excellent history department, particularly in Early Modern European History. A minor in history will not result in a lucrative job but it will prepare you very well for seminary.


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## Justified (Feb 10, 2014)

danborvan said:


> University of Iowa has an excellent history department, particularly in Early Modern European History. A minor in history will not result in a lucrative job but it will prepare you very well for seminary.


 Thanks for the suggestion! I'll look into it. A lot is swirling around in my mind right now, and I want to do a lot of things. I'm thinking about taking either french or german as well. I think french would be useful beside Calvin wrote in french. Additionally, the French are in desperate need of the gospel right now. German is useful for many of the early reformation writers. I do not understand the state of the church in Germany, if someone would like to enlighten me they are welcome and encouraged to do so. Any thoughts?


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## Edward (Feb 10, 2014)

Justified said:


> I do not understand the state of the church in Germany, if someone would like to enlighten me they are welcome and encouraged to do so. Any thoughts?



I gave a presentation to my Sunday School class on that subject a few weeks ago. I'll grab some numbers from the Powerpoint:

Germany:
Protestant 34%
Roman Catholic 34%
Muslim 3.7% 
Unaffiliated or 
other 28.3%

82 million people
3 million muslim
400,000 reformed or semi-reformed. 

The PCA has a couple of church planting teams in Berlin. Their success might charitably be described as moderate
Presbytery of Southeast Alabama is planting churches near major US military bases - targeting American ex-pats, not the German population. Somewhat more successful. 

The Reformed alliance consists of 430 congregations in 9 denominations in two broad groups which generally track the princely states which were reformed in 1919. The reformed groups have been rolled in with the Lutherans to form the Evagelical Church of Germany. 

Congregations/membership
Evangelical Reformed Church in Barvaria and Northwest Germany (142/188,000)
and 
Church of Lippe 69/177,000

(Note - if you declare a membership in a recognized church, you are taxed, with the tax money going to support that group. It cuts down on the inflated membership numbers you can find in this country).


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Feb 11, 2014)

You may want to consider:
Thomas Edison State College: Online, accredited degrees that can be completed entirely online

Then move to seminary with little or no costs:
| The North American Reformed Seminary


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