# Circumcision in the early church?



## Eoghan (Dec 15, 2008)

John Chrysostom's series of sermons against Jadaizing (386AD) is quoted in the book "Not Ashamed - the story of Jews for Jesus" p51. The author goes on to assert that Chrysom was arguing against those who were in the church and practicing circumcision.

Such parts of Chrystom's sermons as I have found online show he was arguing against circumcision practiced by the Jews, he does not give direct evidence of it occurring in the church.

Can anyone provide a full text (online) or confirm that circumcision is inferred (by the author) without direct evidence.?

It is quite common today for a preacher to explain why we should not circumcise today. This by way of clarifying not fighting against the baptist circumcision faction.


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## Romans922 (Dec 15, 2008)

I have never heard that. I thought it was an act of Christian Liberty.


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## SRoper (Dec 16, 2008)

Eoghan said:


> It is quite common today for a preacher to explain why we should not circumcise today. This by way of clarifying not fighting against the baptist circumcision faction.



Can't answer your question, but I've never heard a preacher argue against circumcision. What is the "baptist circumcision faction"?


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## TsonMariytho (Dec 16, 2008)

SRoper said:


> Eoghan said:
> 
> 
> > It is quite common today for a preacher to explain why we should not circumcise today. This by way of clarifying not fighting against the baptist circumcision faction.
> ...



I was wondering the same thing. Could it be Bill Gothard and his following? I've read that Gothard argued that circumcision was "the only Biblical choice" for Christian parents (among his other highly questionable teachings; see _A Matter of Basic Principles_ by Veinot et al. for details on this and other issues).


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## TimV (Dec 16, 2008)

> Can't answer your question, but I've never heard a preacher argue against circumcision. What is the "baptist circumcision faction"?


It's one of those European vs American deals. Europeans are usually shocked when they find out most white adult American males are circumcised.



> It is quite common today for a preacher to explain why we should not circumcise today. This by way of clarifying not fighting against the baptist circumcision faction.


Such a sermon wouldn't go down well in either paedobaptist or credobaptist churches here in the US. I remember back in 1978 when I was on a US wresting team that went to Germany. After the match when we were all taking showers with the German team, we were really shocked because the Germans were, well, different. A team mate later said "Don't you dummies know that you're circumcised?" And there was just silence, as it had never occurred to most of us.


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## DTK (Dec 17, 2008)

Eoghan said:


> John Chrysostom's series of sermons against Jadaizing (386AD) is quoted in the book "Not Ashamed - the story of Jews for Jesus" p51. The author goes on to assert that Chrysom was arguing against those who were in the church and practicing circumcision.
> 
> Such parts of Chrystom's sermons as I have found online show he was arguing against circumcision practiced by the Jews, he does not give direct evidence of it occurring in the church.
> 
> Can anyone provide a full text (online) or confirm that circumcision is inferred (by the author) without direct evidence.?



J. N. D. Kelly has written what I think is the best modern biography on Chrysostom, titled, _Golden Mouth, The Story of John Chrysostom, Ascetic, Preacher, Bishop_, and it is published by Cornell University Press, Ithaca, NY. This biography is very well documented. 

It was during his first year as a preacher (still a priest, not yet a bishop) that he preached some eight addresses, _Discourses against Judaizing Christians_ (Adversus Judaeos), which are found translated into English in Vol. 68 of the _Fathers of the Church series_ published by the Catholic University of America Press.

While commenting on these addresses, Kelly says on p. 63 of his biography that "He (Chrysostom)...exerted himself, in this first homily and in a second preached several days later (aimed particularly at people who practised circumcision), to give a stern warning to such backsliders." Kelly does not distinguish whether Chrysostom was objecting to circumcision *as practiced by the Jews*, or Christians who practiced it. It seems to me, from my reading of Kelly, that Chrysostom simply took it for granted that any practice of circumcision was a "carry-over" from Judaism. The fact is that there was a sizeable Jewish population living in Antioch (though they were a minority) where Chrysostom preached. Many of the Christians to whom he preached flocked to the Jewish autumn feasts and fasts, and held the Jews in respect and regard for their way of life. Some of these Christians, when sick, were even seeking Jewish cures that involved such things as amulets, magical incantations, etc. Of course, Chrysostom objected to Christians behaving in this manner toward the Jews living in Antioch; he regarded them (i.e., these Christians) as "Judaizers." Thus Chrysostom was disposed (sadly) to decry anything that appeared "Jewish" to him.

Kelly goes on to make this rather interesting comment on Chrysostom's tirades against the Jews..."After all the abuse he (Chrysostom) heaped upon them, it is ironical that many years later, when his own career lay in ruins, John was to acknowledge that the Jews of Constantinople counted among his sympathisers" (p. 66).

DTK


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## Eoghan (Dec 19, 2008)

*Thanks DTK*

I was intrigued that it seems to have been a degenerate form of Judaism that Chrysostom was combating. From the sound of it it looks very similar to Kabbala??

I agree that circumcision by Gentile believers is inferred rather than de facto.

P.S. The "baptist circumcision faction" was a joke - I forgot how many Americans have lost their foreskins!


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## Zeno333 (Dec 19, 2008)

As an aside detail regarding Circumcision....the ideal time medically to perform the act, taking into account different enzymes that control blood clotting and pain control etc, is the exact day that it is commanded in the Bible. Further proof that the Bible is the Word of God.


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## DTK (Dec 19, 2008)

I forgot to mention in my post the other day, but here's my favorite quote from that series of sermons (mentioned above) by Chrysostom...

*Chrysostom (349-407):* Finally, if the ceremonies of the Jews move you to admiration, what do you have in common with us? If the Jewish ceremonies are venerable and great, ours are lies. But if ours are true, as they are true, theirs are filled with deceit. *I am not speaking of the Scriptures. Heaven forbid! It was the Scriptures which took me by the hand and led me to Christ.* _FC, Vol. 68, Discourses Against Judaizing Christians_, Disc. 1.6.5 (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1979), pp. 23-24.

DTK


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